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This PhD’s Message for University Housing Is “Work with Us, Not Against Us”

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Travis Seifman, a postdoc at the University of Tokyo. During graduate school, Travis lived in university housing at multiple universities, but chiefly two campuses of the University of California. While the housing was subsidized and convenient to arrange, Travis noted a few downsides and annoyances. Travis and Emily discuss the differences between university housing and private housing and wonder how best to allocate this scarce resource. Travis proposes an adjustment in the approach that universities can take toward their housing administration: “Make it reasonable for adults.” This episode, recorded in August 2019, should serve as a conversation starter regarding the objective of university housing and its administration, especially in the era of COVID-19.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Travis: The purpose of university housing is not to make money for the university. The purpose of university housing is to provide an affordable place to live for students, in light of the fact that we’re only making X amount and they know full well that we’re only making X amount. And in light of the fact that in many of these communities, local housing, regular market housing is extremely expensive. Making it affordable, and then also making it reasonable for adults.

Updates

00:31 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode four, and before we jump into the interview, I have some personal and business updates to share with you. I’m going to start adding short updates to the beginning of each episode. This week, I have a pretty huge one on both the personal and business front, which is that my family moved from Seattle, Washington to Orange County, California at the end of August, my husband and I lived in Seattle for five years and had both of our kids while we lived there, so it’s a big change for all of us. This move brings us one step closer to our next financial goal of buying our very first home, which we are trying to do in 2021. I am documenting all the steps we’re taking to reach that goal in my progress journal inside the Personal Finance for PhDs community. If you want to keep up with our journey, or document your own, or access the multitude of resources in the community, you can find it at pfforphds.community. Now onto the interview.

Introduction

01:35 Emily: My guest is Dr. Travis Seifman, a postdoc at the university of Tokyo. During graduate school, Travis lived in university housing at multiple universities, but chiefly two campuses of the University of California. While the housing was subsidized and convenient to arrange, Travis noted a few downsides and annoyances. We discussed the differences between university housing and private housing, and wonder how best to allocate this scarce resource. Travis proposes an adjustment in the approach that universities can take toward their housing administration: make it reasonable for adults. I expect that this episode recorded in August, 2019 will serve as a conversation starter regarding the objective of university housing and its administration, especially in the era of COVID-19. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Travis Seifman.

Can You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:29 Emily: I have joined me on the podcast today, Dr. Travis Seifman. I’m delighted to have him. Travis, thank you so much for joining me. We’re going to be talking today about university-affiliated housing and Travis’s wide range of experiences with university affiliated housing. So Travis, thank you for joining me today, and will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

02:49 Travis: Thanks so much for having me, Emily. I’ve just finished my PhD in history at UC Santa Barbara, University of California, Santa Barbara, this year. My main research focus is on early modern Japan and Okinawa and rituals, diplomatic relations between them. I previously did two master’s degrees, actually at the University of Hawaii and the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London. Um, so I’ve lived in a few different places. And during my research, I also lived for a short time at the University of the Ryukyus in Okinawa, and at the University of Tokyo.

Travis’s Experience with University-Affiliated Housing

03:25 Emily: And all these different places that you’ve lived, at least some of them, or most of them you’ve lived in what I’m saying is university-affiliated housing. Can you describe the housing situations — main situation or multiple — that you’ve had?

03:37 Travis: Yeah, sure. Just to say it very briefly. When I was at SOAS in London, I stayed in grad student dorms, university housing. University of Hawaii, I stayed in regular private departments for one year. And then for two years, I lived at the East West Center, a federally funded think tank organization located adjacent to the university of Hawaii. So I lived in their dorms for a couple of years. Then, when I moved to UC Santa Barbara, they have dorms for single grad students and they also have family housing. I’ve lived in both of those, and I’ve also lived with my girlfriend at the family housing at UCLA. And during my research trips, I stayed at university dorms, visiting researcher dorms at both University of Ryukyus and university of Tokyo.

04:22 Emily: Why don’t you start with where you UCSB where did your PhD? What was your experience there with that housing?

04:28 Travis: To a certain extent, I would say it’s overall positive, simply in that university housing is always an easy go to option when you’re moving across the country or even moving to a different country. You know how to apply for it. You don’t have to arrive early, or get a hotel while you search for apartments and all this kind of stuff. And it’s often cheaper than the housing that’s around.

04:50 Emily: Do you think that it’s sometimes or usually is cheaper than going off campus because the accommodations are different, like maybe less private, for example, than what you’d get off campus, or have you actually lived in like subsidized university housing?

05:08 Travis: I think everywhere I’ve lived has been subsidized, whether it’s subsidized enough is another question. One place we could start is to just talk about the price. When I was living in the single dorms, the single person dorms at UC Santa Barbara to begin with my first year, the rent was somewhere around $980 per person in a four bedroom apartment. And the apartments in that area are somewhere around that cost. It’s the most I’ve ever paid to live anywhere. It was more than I paid to live in a private apartment in Honolulu. It was more than I’ve paid anywhere else that I’ve lived in my life for dorms in Goleta, which is a town that I had never heard of before I even moved there. We’re not even in Santa Barbara proper.

05:52 Emily: One clarifying question — you were living in a single person room, right? You had a private room in a four bedroom suite, is that right?

06:00 Travis: Yeah, it’s four individual private rooms, shared in a suite. It was $980, or somewhere around there, per month. And after I think, my second or third year there, the grad student association, or perhaps it was the TA union, actually managed to negotiate with the administration to get the rent lowered to $780, which I thought was an incredible victory. I don’t know how typical that is at other campuses, but we did manage to get it down. Regardless of what the market can bear in the area, it’s much more reasonable based on what we’re being paid.

06:38 Emily: Do you mind sharing what your stipend was at that time?

06:41 Travis: I believe it was somewhere around $1,900 a month, so if you spend half of that on rent —

06:46 Emily: Yeah, that’s quite high.

06:48 Travis: Yeah, and meanwhile, the family housing was somewhere around $1,300 a month, so you’re paying $1,300 for an entire apartment. I understand, obviously, subsidizing for families because they need it more, they have more dependents, but just to sort of mentioned that.

07:07 Emily: When you describe family housing or a whole apartment, are you saying it’s a studio or a one bedroom, two bedroom? How large is it?

07:14 Travis: Yeah, so I forget what precisely the rates are, but UCSB family housing has one bedroom apartments, they have two bedroom apartments. There’s a number of different configurations, but basically one bedroom and two bedroom, and I think they charge somewhere around $1,300 a month. And I’ve lived in one of those two bedroom apartments for a year as well.

07:36 Emily: So that was $1,300 for the entire apartment, so split between two presumably adults, maybe they have kids or maybe they don’t.

07:47 Travis: Yeah, exactly. So split between two adults, presumably both adults have some kind of income, but you know, one of them might not, one might be on a grad student stipend and the other one might be stay at home spouse, with children.

08:01 Emily: I think that’s not uncommon among international students, that if you get a spousal visa, the spouse is not permitted to work in the United States.

08:10 Travis: Right. That’s true. I hadn’t actually thought about that point. That’s true.

University-Affiliated Housing vs. the Private Market

08:13 Emily: How did it compare for you as a renter in that place versus if you had gone to the private market, as you had in the past?

08:22 Travis: When you’re working with the university housing, at least you have the advantage of that there’s an entire administration there and you kind of know who to talk to, as opposed to finding the landlord, like how do I actually get in touch with them? And to be fair, I suppose a lot of the rules probably aren’t too different, in terms of whether or not you’re allowed to have pets, most apartments don’t allow pets. Most landlords don’t want you repainting the walls or putting nails in the walls or anything like that. So in terms of a lot of those things, I suppose, I can’t say it’s too different. University housing has the opportunity to be more caring and more understanding about students. The idea that a landlord is in it for the money, that’s just the way things are. The university, ostensibly is not in it for the money. They’re in it to provide housing for members of their community. And so there’s an opportunity there to say, not just anything goes, but just to kind of be understanding of people’s needs, provide allowances, and just be a little bit more open.

09:30 Emily: I think what you’re saying is these students are part of the university community, right? The university is also their employer in many cases, or the administrator of their fellowships. It’s where they’re spending all their time and you’re part of this specific group. It’s not like when you go to the open market and as you said, it’s basically just about price, that’s it. It’s not intentionally trying to foster community or positive relationships between the landlord or the tenants or among the tenants or anything. So university housing is in a different position in that way. And like you said, one of the really positive things that it does is it makes it easy for students who are moving to a new area to find housing. They know they’re not going to be hosed. They’re not going to get in with a bad landlord or whatever. If it’s provided by the university, they know they have already a degree of trust there, is that right?

10:20: Right, right. And I think two places where private housing has the advantage over university housing because of the way that it’s administered, is in terms of access to guests, for example. I’ve had private landlords who’ve said we don’t want really loud parties, we don’t want you disrupting the whole community. But generally you have a key to your apartment that you can give to a guest if you’re leaving for a week or whatever it is. Nobody needs to know about it. You can have overnight guests and nobody needs to know about it. You can sublease and whether that’s officially allowed or not under the lease, you can sublease and people generally don’t have to know about it. University housing, they have all kinds [rules] — you can only sublease to single students who are actively UCSB students. Or if you’re in a family apartment, you can only sublease to people who qualify to be in a family apartment. If you’re going away for the summer, or if you’re going to wait for a whole year to do your research, it’s extremely limiting and for no really good reason.

11:21 Travis: A lot of university apartments, typically at UCSB, they’ve instituted that you don’t have any kind of key to your apartment. You open it with your student card. So again, if I’m even just having a guest over for one night, and I need my student card to get myself into stuff on campus, I can’t give them the card to get into the apartment. It’s these kinds of, I guess, on their point of view, it helps them enforce things maybe, or maybe it’s just a convenience that they didn’t think about the ramifications of, but it’s that kind of stuff where I’m an adult and who’s to say that I can’t have overnight guests. And even at the University of Tokyo apartments, even though the rules said that your overnight guest has to be officially a family member — a sibling, parent, or spouse, or child, I guess — when I actually, when my girlfriend actually came to visit me, they said, “well, we’ve put her down as your sister, so don’t worry about it.” And it’s that kind of, we can get into it later or maybe not, but it’s that kind of being willing to bend the rules that I think is, or not even bend the rules, but just be willing to help students rather than I’m here to enforce the rules, which I think a lot housing departments could afford to have a bit more of.

12:33 Emily: Yeah, that’s interesting. Thanks for providing the example of how you actually access your home. I was thinking, I guess it kind of makes sense for security purposes that you don’t want keys being given out and anybody being able to access whatever, especially because you have roommates within your suite, right?

12:51 Travis: That’s true. And security is an issue.

12:53 Emily: But like you said, it doesn’t allow for any discretion on the part of the actual person who lives there. And you wouldn’t have that kind of — I mean, with landlords, it’s like, okay, you’re not allowed to make copies of your keys. Most likely that’s in the lease somewhere. But as you said, it doesn’t mean you can’t allow your guests to have access a time or two when you’re not physically with them. It’s again, up to your discretion, as the person having the guest over.

Interplay Between the University and it’s Housing Office

13:18 Emily: What other experiences would you like to share?

13:20 Travis: One main thing that I would like to touch upon as I touched upon a little bit already is just the idea of having the staff there to say, I’m here to help you, I’m here to help you figure things out rather than I’m here to enforce rules. To give just a couple of examples of that, UCSB housing, if you have your own car, you can register that car, not any other. Only one car and you can park in the parking structure every day. If you don’t have your own car, you get, I believe it’s two visitor park passes a month and it’s included in your rent. I had my girlfriend coming up from LA however often, and granted that’s not allowed under the lease to be having overnight guests, but even so you won’t let me register her car because it’s not in my name, so what am I supposed to do, how am I supposed to have people park? I’m allowed to park all the time. It’s included in my rent if I have my own car, but because I don’t, I only get two passes a month. Anyway, the point of the story is to say that you walk in and the administrators say, “I don’t make the rules, I just enforce them” rather than saying, “I don’t make the rules. And I know they’re stupid, so let me tell you, actually, you can park over there over the weekends, or actually you can park here, or actually, if you use this code, you can get extra visitor passes.” Fill me in on what tricks or tips there are for making this more viable. And similarly —

14:56 Emily: I think that’s a more generalizable problem with bureaucracy, and the people who enforce it, as you said, rather than actually make the rules, but the people who are on the ground, interacting with those who are displeased about the rules. Often, the first response is just a recitation of this is the rule. Like I know the rules and this is the rule. It’s a little bit harder to find someone who’s willing to like find a creative solution. And often those people know what the creative solutions are because they know the rules so well, they’re supposed to enforce them, so they know the ways around them. It’s nice when you do find someone who is willing to work with you, but it might be something that you have to push for a little bit like, “I know the rule, but like, is there another way that I can get the result that I’m going for without breaking the rule?”

15:39 Travis: Right. Exactly. And that has to do with the way that university housing is integrated into the university administration, rather than being a separate entity, because if you have a private landlord, you can deal with them and they might be more friendly or less friendly that you can deal with them without it impacting reputation with the administration or I don’t know what to say, because it’s so integrated. And then of course, you have the opposite problem as well that very often housing is not integrated well enough into the administration, and I’ve had times when the cashier’s office agreed to let me defer my rent beausethe knew they hadn’t paid me. They knew that I wasn’t in the payroll yet, so they agreed to defer my rent for a few months and then nobody told housing.

16:21 Emily: Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because not being paid on time is actually a surprisingly common problem among graduate students. You would think that if whatever the problem was — the fellowship didn’t come through, it wasn’t processed on time, whatever it was — that housing, being affiliated with the university, they would have some procedures in place for “Oh yeah, this happens sometimes. It’s not the student’s fault. It’s again on the administration, and we have this policy where they can not pay rent for awhile.” You would hope that that would be in place. Whereas with the landlord, it might be a lot of hoops you have to jump through to convince them that it’s okay for you to not pay rent. Maybe you’ll get kicked out. That’s a possibility. So it sounds like it didn’t operate quite so smoothly for you.

17:05 Travis: Right. Actually that’s a really good point too, in terms of the pros and cons of university housing. The landlord doesn’t care whether you’ve been paid or not. I mean, they could choose to be flexible on a personal basis. Whereas the university you’re hoping it’s more integrated that they know. This particular case at Santa Barbara, it worked out very well in the end. Generally speaking, I’ve had overall, I don’t know why, but somehow UC Santa Barbara administration overall seems to be the least problematic of places that I’ve interacted with. They do seem to get their stuff together. When I first arrived at, at UCSB, as happens, I think anywhere that you go, it takes a little time to get into the payroll system. The semester or the academic year starts at the very end of September, so until you’ve worked through the month of October, then you get paid at the beginning of November. Otherwise they have no work to pay you for just yet. For whatever reason, maybe it’s typical for undergrads to pay for their housing on a quarterly basis rather than on a monthly basis. So originally they charged me three months rent at once and they wanted to take it all out of my fellowship before I could even pay my credit card bills, before I could buy groceries, before I could do anything else. Long story short, I talked to the cashier’s office and they were understanding and flexible and they agreed to not only put me back onto a monthly basis, but also to defer it so I didn’t have to pay the first few months rent until November. I then started receiving notices from the housing office saying that I hadn’t paid the rent.

18:44 Emily: So it was more of an internal communication problem within the housing office.

18:46 Travis: Right. It was just an internal communication problem between the cashier’s office on campus and the housing office over by the dorms.

Commercial

18:56 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, book club and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now back to the interview.

Single vs. Family University-Affiliated Housing

19:59 Emily: And then the other thing that you brought up that I was interested in is you brought this up a little bit earlier about the price differential between single student housing and family housing, and you mentioned to me earlier that what is the definition of a family is a little bit of a strange thing to be talking about with university housing, right?

20:21 Travis: Right. Sure. At UCSB and I think probably UCLA as well are quite flexible and quite open minded about what counts as a family. I hope that it works similarly at other campuses. I hope that it does. At UCSB, when I applied for family housing with my girlfriend, you don’t have to be married, you don’t have to be in a hetero relationship. All kinds of different possibilities are possible — single parent with children, all kinds of different possibilities are acceptable. But you have to prove it. And I understand why on the administrative side, because you have such a limited number of units for family housing, you want to make sure that the people who are living there are actually families who are ostensibly more in need of the extra subsidized apartments. So I understand from the administrative side that they have to find some way of kind of proving that you’re a family.

21:28 Travis: At UCLA, they just do that through a very limited set of things. You have to have a shared bank account, proof of a former lease that you used to lease together under both of your names, marriage certificates, other kinds of very formal things. UCSB, for better or for worse, they say, even if you don’t have those kinds of very formal documents, you can share with us Facebook posts, texts, screenshots of your personal and private stuff to help try to show, try to prove that you’re in a meaningful relationship. So we shared with them screenshots from Facebook and from texting to say, “Oh, my parents are coming in for Thanksgiving. Are you going to be coming to dinner with us?” Or things like this.

22:18 Emily: This reminds me a little bit of, and I only know about this from TV or whatever, about green card marriages. Not green card marriages, but marriages in which a green card is involved and like having to prove to the government that you are actually in a romantically-inspired marriage, as opposed to some other kind of arrangement. It seems a little bit of overstepping.

22:45 Emily: I guess what I’m curious about with respect to family housing, and maybe this gets into more what you think or what you think the university thinks the purpose of family housing is? What do you think the purpose of it is? And is it accomplishing that purpose?

23:00 Travis: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think it’s a complicated issue because I think that for families, especially for grad students, like I was saying before, if one partner is on a grad student stipend and the other partners being a stay at home spouse, stay at home parent. Or even if both parents are on grad student stipends, you’re providing an opportunity, providing a way for them to live affordably as a family, with their dependents. For those in those situations obviously it’s a very good thing that that’s provided. I can’t imagine how some of my friends managed to afford…just how do you afford to live? We get paid roughly $1,900 a month. If your rent is $1,300 a month for the whole apartment, and that’s your only income for an entire family with one or two kids, I don’t know how people do it. So I appreciate that they have family housing for that purpose.

24:05 Travis: But then of course the flip side is that the single students are saying, just because I’m single, just because I don’t happen to have a romantic partner or a larger family, I have to pay more per person at least to stay in these smaller apartments. I personally have never had problem with being in a dorm room situation where I have my private room attached to a common room. But I know a lot of people also who say, I’m an adult and I want a whole apartment to myself or something like this. UCLA has studio apartments for single grad students and they charge a lot of money for them. UCSB the only option on campus is these two or four bedroom apartments, like I was talking about before.

24:54 Emily: Yeah. I guess this conversation is making me think about what is the purpose of family housing? Because like you said, it’s a differentially applied benefit. There’s more subsidy available to some people because of their family versus other people. And is that fair or is that not? But we were talking about university housing versus private off campus housing, where off campus the only regulation you’re going to find is a maximum number of people who can live in a certain size space. They don’t care, married, unmarried, children, not, it doesn’t matter. So maybe there is an opportunity with on campus housing to provide some, as we were talking about earlier, some additional support for the students in most need, like we were talking about students moving long distance or from overseas — hey, that university housing is there for you to make the whole process easier. And so maybe there is an opportunity to sort of subsidize students who are more in need, like those with dependents. But for me, the harder argument actually is extending that benefit to students in two income households, two income families without any dependence. That’s what, to me, gets a little bit tricky. Like you were saying, single adult versus a couple where it’s just two adults — why should that couple get any more subsidy if both of them are working, if both of them are permitted to work? For me it’s a little bit harder to extend this benefit beyond those who have actual dependents, whether they’re children or non-working spouses.

26:29 Travis: Right. And also, as you’re saying about this, it makes me think about international students who — I don’t know the ins and outs of it. I think being an international student is a lot more difficult in all kinds of ways than the rest of us know. But I wonder, I would imagine that for international students, even beyond the simple matter of the convenience of not having to look for an apartment, the convenience of being able to just arrive in the US and have already arranged an apartment. I would imagine that looking for a private apartment as an international student, you probably have all kinds of trouble with documentation with guarantors. Part of the reason that I’ve never looked for a private apartment for myself in Japan the many times that I’ve gone there for research is because I don’t have a Japanese guarantor, and I don’t have a Japanese bank account, and I don’t have a Japanese phone number until after I have an address to give the phone company to say that I live in Japan and to get a phone number.

27:25 Emily: There’s credit scores as well. That’s another major hurdle for international students coming to the US. The US doesn’t recognize any credit that might have been established in other places.

27:35 Travis: So that’s a whole other conversation to be had about whether some kind of more consideration should be given to international students, especially international students with a family, with dependents rather than domestic students, perhaps. And then just to kind of throw it in there, at the East West center, you have the opposite situation where the East West center dorms are only for people who are on a fellowship or otherwise sort of officially affiliated with the East West center, which is this sort of Asia Pacific studies organization. And it’s about, I think it’s about 75%, my numbers might be wrong, I think it’s about 75% international students. You can only get in there if you’re on a particular kind of affiliation with this organization. If you’re a UH student who doesn’t have that affiliation, you don’t get to live in these dorms. And the dorms are primarily single rooms and double rooms. The single rooms are $400 a month, the last I checked. That was about 10 years ago, but extremely reasonable, especially for Honolulu. But if you’re in a family, you can’t live there. It’s actually kind of the opposite situation of trying to get into these subsidized apartments and family housing at other campuses. That’s a whole other complicated…they really want people to live in the community and interact with each other, on a day to day basis. But if you’re in a family, then you can’t. I think you’re absolutely right. These are the conversations that people are having. Is it fair to have these subsidized apartments only for people in certain situations, and especially if the the second spouse, the non grad student spouse is earning a proper full salary at whatever job it may be, then they absolutely can afford that apartment while other people can’t.

29:16 Emily: And in your experience, has there been any means testing. Have you been asked what your income is when you apply for housing?

29:23 Travis: I don’t recall whether or not I’ve been asked, but I’m not aware of…I mean, I don’t know what goes on in the back rooms, but I’m not aware of that being a policy. I’m not aware of them giving preference to people who don’t have the second income or anything like that. I definitely know people who live in family housing who have a second income, people who don’t have a second income, international students, non international students.

29:54 Emily: It’s just interesting, because again, when we’re comparing with private landlords, how much you make is a very important question for them to ask, to make sure that you can afford the apartment. But of course, there’s no case where they’re going to say, Oh, you make too much, of course we can’t live here. Make however much you want. It’s fine. But it goes again, back to the question of what is the purpose of university housing, and if it is subsidized, and if it is one of their objectives to help students and students’ families who have less means to be renting off campus or whatever, then it might make sense to ask about that. But again, that’s another example of maybe some overstepping that could be going on. So this is a very complicated issue, obviously.

The Ideal University Housing System

30:29 Emily: I’m wondering for you, Travis, if you were to design your ideal university housing system, maybe what would your goals be? And how would you try to achieve those goals?

30:42 Travis: It’s a really good question, and I tried to give it some thought. I don’t know, I have to admit as much as we all have gripes, and I certainly have gripes. At the same time, I’m not an expert administrator, all of the ins and outs of how it should be done, and I understand that people are trying to do what they can, but I think the key point is the purpose of university housing is not to make money for the university. The purpose of university housing is to provide an affordable place to live, for students, in light of the fact that we’re only making X amount and they know full well, that we’re only making X amount. And in light of the fact that in many of these communities, I guess it all depends on where you are at college, but for the places that I’ve lived, local housing, regular market housing is extremely expensive. Making it affordable, and then also making it reasonable for adults.

31:34 Travis: I think part of it is also whatever regulations you have — we didn’t really get into this too much — but whatever regulations you have for undergrad housing, keeping in mind, I mean they are legally adults, but you mind certain notions of trying to take care and keep control over the community in loco parentis, and all of that kind of stuff. Simply extending those policies to grad students isn’t the best way, and acknowledging that as grad students, we want to have a full apartment to ourselves, or at least have the option. We want to redecorate our places. We want to be able to have parking. We want to be able to have pets. We want to be able to come and go over the summer or for a whole year and still retain our apartment. Or if we can’t retain our apartment, then work with us as adults, I think is sort of the key point.

32:13 Travis: And again, just working with people in a way that works with us and not against us. I understand there’s a much more complicated conversation about bureaucracy in general, in terms of, if you give people exceptions, then who are you not giving exceptions to? And how is that fair? And what’s the purpose of policies if you’re not going to enforce them and all these kinds of things. Saying you can’t have overnight guests unless officially of your relationship. And then what happens when you have a girlfriend or even just a friend coming? I pay for this apartment, I should be allowed to have people stay. Just various things like that. I think the key point is just making it affordable, making it a place where real adults can live and making it friendly and workable. Making it a place where people are working with you and not against you. It’s kind of the three points I would make.

33:04 Emily: I’m really glad to have your perspective as someone who’s lived in multiple different university-affiliated housing situations like what’s worked well, what have you, what positive things have you seen about it, maybe what things can be changed. It seems to me that one of the main points that you’re making is just that the administration needs to listen to the students, and as you were just saying, treat them like adults. It seems like that at least happened in your experience at UCSB, when the union or the GSA or whichever it was, was heard and actually got that rent lowered, which is an amazing victory. I just really appreciate your perspective on those issues.

Best Financial Advice for Early Career PhDs

33:41 Emily: As we finish up, would you please share with us what your best financial advice is for another early career PhD?

33:48 Travis: Yeah, I think as someone who’s just finished, I’m not sure what kind of advice I can give for other people who have just finished, but for people who are still in the PhD, I think my main advice would just be to keep your eyes out for whatever you can apply to, and kind of be aware of the fellowships and other kinds of resources that are available for you. You can’t spend hours and hours and hours applying to every single thing and investigating every single thing, but be aware of what’s available to you and take advantage of it. If your department offers whether explicitly or sort of implicitly offers that everybody gets summer funding, at least once or offers that everyone gets at least one quarter or two quarters off before the end, make sure you take advantage of that, make sure you do that. Don’t miss the deadlines. Just be aware of what’s out there and be aware of what you’re eligible for, not just in your department, but also in grad div or in School of Humanities or in whatever other things it might be coming from.

34:49 Travis: The other thing I would say is push and advocate and make the professors, make the faculty and administration aware that certain kinds of things are not funded. This is going into a whole other conversation, and I’ll just take one more minute, but for example, at Santa Barbara, I was fortunate to have a certain amount of funding available possible, potential to me for conference travel and for research travel. And that seems very logical from a top down kind of, okay, we’re giving money for conference, traveling for research travel.

35:22 Travis: Well, what about language study and what about things that are not strictly language study? Because I’ve gotten the funding in the past to study, there’s a thing called FLAS, the Foreign Language Area Studies scholarship, which allows you to study modern languages that the government considers to be of strategic value. But then when they find out that you’re studying classical Japanese or classical Chinese, or you’re not really in a language program per se, but you’re doing paleography or how to handle documents or a workshop on how to handle documents. Well, now it’s not language study, so now there’s no funding for that. You need to make people aware that these programs exist and they cost money and you need to have funding for it from some avenue. FLAS won’t pay for it and if conference travel and research travel won’t cover it, what can the department do? What can grad div do to create something that will cover book history workshops, paleography courses, archeology field, school, and so forth.

36:18 Emily: Yeah, it sounds like, again, you’re bringing up the points of being flexible with people. If everyone’s on the same page about what the goals are, then let’s be flexible about the way that we get there. Or just not letting people fall through the cracks. If you create big planks and boards, let’s make sure there aren’t gaps that people are actually falling into between those boards. Thank you so much for adding that Travis, and thank you so much for giving this interview.

36:45 Travis: Thanks so much for having me. This was really wonderful. I really appreciate it.

Outtro

36:48 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

Fully Joint and Fully Separate Finances in Marriage: Perspectives from Two PhDs

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In this episode, Emily discusses marital finances with Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, an assistant professor at Creighton University. Emily and her husband keep fully joint finances, whereas Michelle and her husband keep fully separate finances. They detail their respective systems, list the advantages of each approach, consider how the legal realities line up or not with their preferred conceptions, and consider whether they would ever change their methods. They touch on IRS filing statuses, student loan debt, income shifts, living apart, and the addition of children.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Michelle: Every November, I have these two conferences and I know I’m going to be spending more money around that time. He doesn’t have to think about that at all. And if we had a joint account, we would always have to talk about that. And because we don’t, it’s not a thing that we need to discuss, he just knows that I go on these conferences.

Introduction

00:26 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode three, and today my guest is Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, an assistant professor at Creighton University. Michelle and I discuss our methods for handling finances in our marriages. My husband and I keep fully joint finances, and Michelle and her husband keep fully separate finances. We detail our respective systems, list the advantages of each approach, consider how the legal realities line up with our preferred conceptions, and consider whether we’d ever change our methods. We touch on IRS filing statuses, student loan debt, income shifts, living apart, and the addition of children. Without further ado, here’s my discussion with Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:18 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, and we’re doing a little bit of a different format today than my typical podcast interviews. Michelle and I are actually going to have a discussion today. The topic of our discussion is how to handle money in a relationship. And I was looking for someone to discuss this topic with me because my husband and I have our finances completely joint. And I know that that is not necessarily as common as a model as it used to be. And so I wanted to have someone on who would tell me about a different model. So, Michelle volunteered. She and her husband have separate finances. So, we have those two perspectives represented today. And there’s a third model that won’t be represented, which is the yours, mine, and ours model, which is sort of in between these two.

02:02 Emily: So, I hope you’ll get something from this that’ll be interesting to you. If you are in a relationship, if you handle money together as a couple, hopefully you’ll find some common ground with one or the other of us, or maybe you’ll disagree with both of us and say, “Well, I want to handle things completely differently than these two.” But yeah, that’s the topic for today. So, Michelle, thank you so much for joining me and having this discussion.

02:22 Michelle: Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to talking about this.

02:25 Emily: All right. So, why don’t we start Michelle with a little bit further introduction to you, like your academic and career background and where you live?

02:34 Michelle: Sure. So, I am a clinical psychologist by training. I’m currently living in Omaha, Nebraska, and I am an assistant professor at Creighton University and I’m a licensed clinical psychologist at CHI Health Initiative. I have a PhD from the University of Toledo in Ohio and my husband and I have been moving all across the country, met in undergrad and have been together ever since then. So, he’s been really following me around through all of my steps to get to where I am now. And I think that really factors into how money has been handled in our relationship because he is not a PhD. So, while I’ve been accruing debts and lots of things, that’s not been true for him. We started out as, you know, dating and as roommates before we were ever married. And so, the roommate piece has always been a factor in how we’ve handled money. And I think as we married that never changed because we had already found a system that worked for us.

Timeline for Michelle and Emily’s Relationships

03:49 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. Can you put some dates on this? Maybe I’ll share some dates of my own as well. So, like when did you meet, when did you move or change things in your relationship? Going from dating to living together to marry, those kinds of things?

04:05 Michelle: Yeah, so we met in 2004 and we did not get married until 2016. So, I graduated in May of 2008 from undergrad, moved from Ohio to North Carolina and lived for a year on my own while he was finishing up his degree. And then he moved to North Carolina with me. So, I was a postbac at Duke for three years, we, that sort of started our trajectory on roommates. And then he followed me from Duke to Toledo for my PhD. And we lived in Toledo for four years. And then a requirement for clinical psychologists is that we do a year-long APA accredited internship somewhere in the country. And so, I happened to match at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences. So, we moved from Toledo, Ohio to Little Rock, Arkansas in 2015. And then we got married in the middle of my internship year in 2016. And then from there, we moved from Arkansas back to Ohio for postdoc, where I was a postdoc for four years at Ohio State. And then from Columbus, Ohio to Omaha, Nebraska, and have only lived in Omaha for about two months.

Separate to Joint Finances vs. Maintaining Separate Finances in Marriage

05:40 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That is a lot of moving, but not too unusual right? In the PhD world. So yeah, I’ll share kind of the counterpoint. There’s actually some points of overlap in our story, which is really interesting. So, my husband and I, before we married, Kyle, we graduated from college in 2007. We started dating in 2006 and we lived in different cities for a year. He started at Duke and I did a postbac at the NIH. And then in 2008 in the fall, I moved and started my PhD at Duke. We lived separately for two years until we got married in 2010. So when we got married, moved in, that’s when we combined our finances. So, we went from completely separate to completely joint.

06:30 Emily: Well, there’s a little bit of a transition, but aspiring to be joint when we got married that was in 2010 and it’s been that way since. So, we did have a small period of living apart for a few months when I did a fellowship after I finished my PhD, but we both defended in the summer of 2014. We lived in Durham for another year. I was in DC for part of that year. And then in 2015, we moved from Durham to Seattle. So, that’s kind of our story. And for the listeners, we’re recording this in September, 2019. So, that’s the perspective there. So, we’ve already heard a little bit about the history of like how the handling of the finances for both of us has changed over the course of our relationships. Is there anything else that you want to add to that as to maybe like philosophically, like why you’ve chosen to maintain the system that you had been using all along? Whereas of course I, as I just said, we changed at some point.

07:23 Michelle: Yeah. So, for me personally, my debt that I was accruing was my debt for my education and my career advancement, wasn’t necessarily my husband’s. And yes, I know legally it’s his debt now because we’re married. By not having our finances joint, it makes me feel like it’s still my debt and I’m still working to pay off my debt. And it actually helps me a lot. So, on fellowship, I got an NIH loan repayment grant and I was able to do that pretty easily because I had not consolidated my loans, and his undergrad loans weren’t part of mine and we didn’t have to deal with any of that. And I was told by NIH loan repayment that our finances were much more straightforward and it was easier for them to give me money because they didn’t have any headache with that. So, it was helpful in that regard. We were not thinking about that when we decided not to join accounts.

Benefits of Filing Taxes Jointly as a Married Couple

08:39 Emily: Yeah, sometimes there are unexpected benefits that come up along the way. So, I’m curious, do you guys file taxes married, filing jointly, or married, filing separately?

08:49 Michelle: Jointly.

08:50 Emily: Okay. Because that also, that sometimes affects like this loan repayment, like loan forgiveness stuff, depending on like what program you’re in. Did you want to add to that?

08:58 Michelle: It’s definitely like, we talked about how we were going to do that. And I think because economically we would benefit more from filing jointly as opposed to filing separately. And so that was pretty much the decision. It was more of an economic decision as opposed to a philosophical one, I guess.

09:12 Emily: Yeah, there’s this really strange thing, I guess, in the tax code that it does matter a lot, whether you’re married or not. Right? That’s the sort of defining line is legal marriage, depending on how you file. And then there’s a real disadvantage to married filing separately. I mean, there are some conditions under which some people choose to do that, but it’s not at all the same to do married, filing separately as it is when you’re not married. Like those are two vastly different treatments under the tax code. So, I find that to be very I mean, I’m sure there are reasons for it, but I find it to be kind of puzzling. So, there are sort of very, very special circumstances where it makes sense to do married filing separately, but they’re kind of rare actually, and actually often involve large student loan debts. And that’s one reason that people do file separately.

Advantages of Separate Finances in Marriage

09:59 Emily: Okay. So, I would say for my counterpoint on that, the philosophy or the reasoning behind us joining our finances when we got married was around our understanding of marriage or our idea of what marriage should be. And so, there are certain attributes of a married couple that we believe in. And one of those is joining finances. That’s not to say that everyone has to do it the same way we do, but that’s how we view our marriage. And so, it was important for us to go from not having anything in common before we were married to, after we were married, deciding that everything would be in common. So, let’s get to talking about, kind of like, what are the advantages of the joint finances model and the separate finances model? And please go first.

10:48 Michelle: Okay. So, advantages that I see are control. Control of your own money and how you spend it. Like, I don’t have to ask my husband and he doesn’t have to ask me to spend money. Because we both know what’s in our respective accounts and we are decent money managers. And so, we’re not necessarily consulting eachother about money all the time. And in fact, it’s very rare for us to have a discussion about money, or I don’t think we’ve ever fought about money because we’ve never needed to. So, I would consider that definitely a pro because finances are a common theme for stress and tension and marriage, and by us having separate accounts, I’m never needing to have that discussion with him because the bills that I pay are paid and it’s on my own volition and what he’s paying is on his and I never have to track that.

11:50 Emily: So, I have kind of a follow-up question about that, which is so at some points you do have to make decisions around money like where to live, for example. So, do you just eat sort of assess your own budgets and so forth and say, “Okay, this is how much I can spend on the next place that we live.” And you both just kind of agree on a number, is that right?

Separate Finances, Shared Vision and Life Goals

12:08 Michelle: Yes. Yeah. In general, we know, so we have, even though our finances are separate, we have shared goals for our life. So, our goal right now is to live like a postdoc, even though I’ve started my career. And with the goal of paying off my student loans and our credit card debt, so that we can then save for a house and just have a better life down the line. And so, we both share that vision, but how we go about getting to that vision is a little bit different because our accounts are separate.

12:46 Emily: Yeah. I’m really glad that you clarify that. That like, the vision is united. And the, as you were just saying, I thought you put that very well. The methods by which you each get there financially could be separate, but you’ve agreed on kind of where you’re headed. And so, you do aspire to own a house together. It sounds like.

13:05 Michelle: I think so. That’s a goal one day.

13:08 Emily: Okay. Gotcha. Any other advantages? I mean, that’s a big one.

13:12 Michelle: I mean, that for me is the biggest one. And just a sense for my just having my own autonomy within my relationship. I think that’s an important value for me as a person. And so, I get to have that. And my husband supports that because we have a very, like our philosophy on marriage is very much partner-focused and that we’re in it together. And that neither one of us is, you know, the owner of the other. We don’t have that kind of philosophy. And I think that reflects true in our finances. And I find that as an advantage.

Advantages of Joint Finances

13:55 Emily: Yeah, definitely. I thought of a couple of advantages to the joint system. So, one is complete simplicity. We have one checking account, both of our names on it. We have a set of savings accounts that both of our names are on. As I said, the credit cards are a little bit more complicated. Some of those, we have both of our names on there’s like one or two on each of our sides that we only have one, mostly because the other one might sign up later to get the parks as well. So yeah, to me, that simplicity is there. Now, I’m not sure how you handle this part, but I know that for some people who, for instance, have the yours, mine and ours model, they end up having a joint checking account, separate checking accounts, joint savings, separate savings, maybe joint credit cards, maybe separate credit cards. And also there’s a lot of transferring going on. So, I don’t know, like when you pay your bills, for example, do you, like one is responsible–like, how do you handle, I guess the transferring that might need to go on? Or do you avoid that?

14:47 Michelle: Yeah, so for bills, I, in fact, up until this move, had handled all of the bill paying, and so I would pay the bills every month and then we would split finances. So, he would literally write me a check, and then I would deposit that into my account and make sure all the bills got paid. This move, because of all the stress and things in my own world that were happening around this move, he actually took some ownership on setting up some of our bills for this new move. And so, now he’s responsible for some bills that I would have previously been paying, and that seems to be working out okay. It’s just what he’s paying and then gets deducted from what he would owe for the rest of his half.

15:35 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. So there still is some, when you live together and you have shared expenses, you still have to do some of this transferring or somehow decide how to split it up. So, one advantage of joint finances, is the simplicity. Oh, and when we get paid, like all of our money goes into that checking account. Although, you know, come to think of it. My business is something that’s separate, because the business is not in my name alone. But when I pay myself from my business, that goes into our joint checking. And I’m not like spending out of the business for personal stuff, obviously. So, kind of once it is entering into our personal finances it’s joint. So, that’s one advantage is the simplicity. Not having to do the transfers.

Complete Transparency and Agreement

16:14 Emily: And then another one is complete transparency. So, this is not something that necessarily everyone desires, but we do. And so, obviously because everything’s joint, we both have complete access to everything and there’s no, basically there’s no way that any of us could keep a secret from the other without going and opening another account. That obviously could happen. Like, logistically one of us could do that. But in terms of what we know about, we can all see everything. And actually, so in addition to actually like literally sharing the accounts in terms of his name or on them, we also have a Mint account that we share where everything goes into that. And so that was actually helpful. We started that Mint account sort of, you know, as we were getting married and joining everything. So, for the things that were separate, that we didn’t like close down right away, they were all in Mint anyway. So, we could each see what was going on, even if like, you know, that random other account was still open for a little while. So, I liked that aspect of transparency a lot. To me, another feature of joint finances is that you have to agree on everything. But of course the corollary to that is that if you don’t agree, then there’s friction, then there are problems. As you were just saying, by keeping things separate, you really minimize kind of the, the level.

17:30 Emily: Like if you agree on the big picture, like the details, whatever it’s separate, who cares as long as you’re both adhering to the shared vision, I really liked how you phrased that. But for us, it’s sort of a feature that we have to agree about everything. Like I know other people view that as like a downside, but we do have to agree on everything or agree to disagree. Right? And agree to let one another have some autonomy in our decision making and just not care. And of course we’ll still see it. As I said, with the transparency. I think this was more important to us, or it was more of a factor like us having to agree on things earlier in our marriage, because we were both in graduate school. So, we weren’t earning as much money as we are now.

18:12 Emily: And our expenses, we were just a lot more like strict around budgeting and so forth. I mean, by necessity, right? We had to be, so the incomes were lower. So, we had to agree there wasn’t really, there wasn’t really a lot of fat in the budget. Right? And so everything had–not everything, because we agreed on a lot of things automatically–but if there were any points of disagreement, we had to force ourselves to come to an agreement. Or again, agree to disagree and just spend what we will.

Both Spending Models Encourage Conversations About Finances

18:36 Emily: So, I remember like early on in our marriage, I’m a bit of a natural spender. It’s something I’ve had to kind of curb over time, especially during graduate school. And my husband could not understand. We were going to all these weddings, right? Because we were in our mid twenties, we had just gotten married. We were going to a lot of weddings. My husband could not understand why I needed a new dress for, not like literally every event, but like a lot of events. I was like telling him, “I need to buy a new dress for this.” He was like, “I’m wearing the same suit to every single one of these events.” And I was like, “Well, this is a day wedding. And this is an evening wedding. You have to consider the season and the temperature and like the fanciness level.” And so I was trying to tell him all these reasons why I had to like buy all these new dresses. And he ultimately like, did not really understand it, but he just had to like, kind of accept it for a while. And so, that was an example of sort of an ongoing, not like fight, but just like sort of puzzlement on his side of why I was making these decisions.

19:27 Emily: But what that did though, is it kind of forced him, I think, to understand something about women and women’s fashion and the constraints and the expectations that we’re under. And it also forced me ultimately, you know, I didn’t keep up that dress-buying habit for more than a few years. And so, it also kind of forced me to be like, “Well,” rethink, like, “Do I really need all these new clothes for all these new events?” And so, it was a reason for us to kind of evolve our, I guess, thinking or understanding of each other and that kind of thing. So anyway, some short-term conflicts sometimes, but I liked that we are ultimately forced to agree and work things out. So to me, that’s a feature. And then the last feature, did you want to add anything there?

20:08 Michelle: I think just, as a counter perspective, by having separate accounts, it’s actually forced us to talk about finances more than if we had a joint–and maybe not more, but in a different way. So, I like you, Emily, am more of a spender and I have to really be conscientious about saving. Whereas my husband is very frugal and he would never spend money if he could get away with that. And so, it’s more like I’m talking to him as a confidant about money and, “Okay, so I’m really, I’m considering, you know, I love shoes and I think I need a new pair of tennis shoes,” and then he’ll reflect back and say, “Well, do you really? And how are these shoes going to help you with whatever?” And sometimes I’ll listen and I’ll say, “Okay, yeah, you’re right. I probably don’t need these shoes.” And it’s more of a partnership piece as opposed to a necessity. Like, I don’t need his opinion or his approval for me to buy this thing, but I I’m seeking it because I value his input. And in some ways that’s strengthened our relationship.

21:26 Emily: Yeah. So, even though you don’t have to, at the end of the day, you do choose to, I mean, you said earlier, you don’t talk about money much, but it sounds like maybe you talk around it a little bit. Like money affects a lot of things in our lives. And so, it’s kind of hard to go without discussing it at all, at least in an oblique manner. But what I like about what you’re saying is that like you’re still bringing it up and bringing whatever the decision is out into the open. And ultimately at the end of the day, it’s still your decision, but you are seeking his opinion or his counsel. Yeah. I really like that.

Advantage of Joint Finances: Navigating Income Disparities

21:57 Emily: The last advantage that I thought of for having joint finances is that it doesn’t matter who earns what. So, like when my husband and I were in graduate school, we earned about the same amount of money. So, not really huge concerns there. Right? Two people, two incomes that were pretty much the same feels like equal, right? After graduate school, I became self-employed. My income went down–right?–initially and then has risen over time. But his income increased because he got a proper job, a proper post-PhD job. And so, he saw an income jump, and I saw initially an income decrease. And it didn’t matter, like there wasn’t tension around that. And also the decisions that we had to make, like, for example, when you were saying earlier about, okay, you need to come to an agreement on where to live. So, like had we had separate finances under that situation, it would be like, well, I almost can’t contribute anything like to the household or very little, and he would be contributing a lot.

22:57 Emily: Under the joint model, we don’t concern ourselves with that because the money all just is shared. And so, whatever we can budget and afford on the completely combined income is what is going to happen, you know, for our family. And I guess I should say that basically, had we had separate finances and were committed to both contributing, for instance, equally to the household, then I just wouldn’t have started my business. It just, it wouldn’t have happened that way or wouldn’t have happened at that time. Like I would have gone and gotten a job and had an income more equal to what his was or close to. Yeah. And so, I think that the joint finances model has actually helped me like follow my dream. Right? As starting this business. And likewise for him, like he took a job at a startup, which we know at any point the ride could be over, right?

23:51 Emily: It’s an early-stage startup. And so, I guess of course he could have like saved maybe and provided for him self, I guess, in the event of job loss or something, if that’s what an emergency fund is for. But I guess we sort of have more like peace of mind knowing there’s like two incomes going into this pot and, you know, the expenses would be paid like from those two incomes. And again, it doesn’t really matter who’s earning what. So, that’s, again, our philosophy on that. And, I guess I should also mention, we have two children and especially early on in their lives, I was doing a lot more of the childcare. So, my income was lower. I was doing a lot more of the, sort of the work for the household. Right? That was unpaid.

24:29 Emily: And he was doing more of the earning, like outside the household. And that situation has changed now, like my income has risen and we have more childcare now. So, we might be able to handle things differently if we wanted to. But I feel like at that time joint finances were really necessary because the contributions that I was making the household were not reflected in income as much. So yeah, I guess it depends also on like sort of life stage and if both people are working or what decisions are around that, but there’s, I feel like extreme advantages to the joint finances model in certain configurations of income disparities. Right?

25:04 Michelle: Yeah. And I think it might be helpful to know. So, with every transition and are, and new we’ve always moved for my career. And so, the move I was able to start working and earning right away. My husband has followed me. So, every move he’s had to find a job. And so there’s been periods of time at every step where he’d been unemployed and was living on savings until he found a job. And that is currently true for us as we just moved two months ago. So, he’s still he’s looking and does not have a job. And so, knowing that, you know, he’s set up savings, and also this piece of this transition has been around, “Okay, now my income is a lot higher than what his will be when he gets a job. And so then how do we balance bills?” Yes, jointly we have more money, but what he can contribute is less than what I could contribute. And so, we’ve talked about paying a percentage of whatever our bills are. So, if we’re going for right now, our finances are exactly the same as they were on postdoc. And so it’s easy to do what we were doing previously, but as we transition in the next few years to basically growing and towards home ownership, we might be able to afford a house that he wouldn’t be able to afford on his income alone. And so, then that’ll be a discussion of like how we’re going to handle that.

Commercial

26:52 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early-career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics, or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers, even while social distancing. Now, back to our interview.

Disadvantages of Joint and Separate Finances

27:51 Emily: So, that was kind of the end of my list of advantages that I see in joint finances. Was there anything that you wanted to add as like maybe disadvantages of your system? Disadvantages of my system, except if they haven’t already been covered by highlighting advantages of one or the other?

28:07 Michelle: I mean, the disadvantage of the separate model is around these transitions when your finances change substantially. And now it’s a matter of us having this discussion. Whereas, like you said, with the joint model, you wouldn’t have to do that if it’s built in.

28:28 Emily: One disadvantage of joint finances that I often see brought up. I don’t personally experience it, but a lot of people will bring up, what do you do about gifts? You know, what do you want to do when you want some secrecy, but it’s for the benefit right, of the other person and for that joy of gift giving? And I don’t experience this as an issue myself and I have some like, ideas about workarounds, basically. Like, sort of in my mind, if your only hangup about joint finances is gifts, there are easy ways to get around that and still have the totally joint model. If gifts are among other reasons why you don’t like the model, then that that’s fine. That can factor in. But like after I receive the gift and I was like, “How did you pull that off?” He’s like, “Oh, I know you check Mint. So, I did it on this random card that I just didn’t update from Mint.” So, that’s very tricky. I think an easier solution is just to use cash. Just take out cash and say, “Oh, I need some cash for some reason, don’t inquire too hard.” Or, “Oh, I’m buying you a gift, but you don’t know what it is yet.”

29:31 Emily: Or go to a place like Target or Amazon where you might be buying any kind of thing and let it be a secret for the time being. So, you might need to get a little bit tricky around gift-giving or at least having an agreement of like, you know, “I won’t look at that for a little while, while you’re getting me a gift.” But to me it seems like a pretty minor, I guess, speed bump in the model for joint finance. But it’s one that comes up a lot. So, I wanted to kind of address that.

29:57 Michelle: Unless, of course, your love language is gift giving and then it’s a very big deal. And so, I could see that being more important or more impactful to defining whether to have a joint account.

30:13 Emily: Yeah, I think that’s probably where, if it was something you were doing on a very regular basis, like every month or something like that, I can see–so, there’s sort of a subset of joint finances which is like joint with allowances. And so, your allowance could come out in cash so the other person doesn’t know what you do with it. Or it could even be two separate checking accounts, but your income goes into joint account. And then the separate account gets the, whatever it is, a hundred dollars a month, whatever your allowance is. And so, that’s a way that you can regularly keep some money from your spouse seeing it while still maintaining the spirit of the joint model. But of course, yeah, the bigger the component of your life this is, the more it argues that you need to have a specific system around figuring this out, which we obviously do not.

Unique Situations for Money Management as PhDs in a Relationship

31:02 Emily: One of the last questions here, Michelle, are there any attributes or situations unique to PhDs that might inform the choice of how to manage money in a relationship? So, I thought about living apart, which I mentioned earlier, my husband and I lived apart only for about three months. So, it was very short period of time a few years ago. But I have had friends, PhDs, sometimes two PhD couples, sometimes just one PhD couple, that have been living apart for years at a time because of training and stuff. You’ve been very fortunate and very supported that your husband has been following you around. Not everyone is able or willing to do that. So yeah, I guess I can see that this might inform the decision, right? Because the more, I guess separation you have like living in one place versus another, I think the more that supports the separate, or at least partially joint, partially separate models. Because as you were saying earlier, like you don’t have to, you do, but you don’t have to consult with your husband on decisions. That doesn’t really affect him, what you do with your own finances.

32:07 Emily: So to me, that model makes a lot of sense when the day-to-day decisions don’t really involve both of you. Right? And only involves one of you. And so, I felt that a little bit. I mean, again, I was only apart from my husband for a few months, but yeah, like what I did on a daily basis, the shopping or the eating out or whatever, like he wasn’t involved in any of that. So, it was a little bit odd that, you know, the money was still coming from our joint account. And so, I think that we did have a little bit less like sort of communication around what was going on. Like he just sort of was like, well, basically by that point, like we knew each other’s spending habits. And as long as we weren’t going outside of that, it didn’t really need to come up that much. But yeah, it was kind of odd to be like living in it in a different place and still withdrawing from that joint bank account. But you know, it was just a short period of time. So for us, it wasn’t, it didn’t warrant like changing the model, but yeah, I can see how there’s a reason to be a little bit more separate if your lives are kind of separate.

33:05 Michelle: I would say that’s pretty true for us. My husband’s not a PhD, not an academic by any means. And the culture around being a PhD and, you know, having to go to conferences and networking and sort of the things we spend money on that we wouldn’t spend money on if we weren’t PhDs, that’s very real for us. Because there are many times where I’m like, “Okay, so every November I have these two conferences and I know I’m going to be spending more money around that time.’ He doesn’t have to think about that at all. And if we had a joint account, we would always have to talk about that. And because we don’t, it’s not a thing that we need to discuss. He just knows that I go on these conferences and I’m still able to pay the bills. And it’s just made things a little bit smoother, I think. And he hasn’t needed to learn the culture of being a PhD because we have these separate accounts around money.

34:08 Emily: Yeah. That’s a really good point that like, especially PhD training and even, I guess, could be as a professor to some degree as well, there are certain demands that are made of your personal finances that would not be made if you were not a trainee or an academic. And that’s super unfortunate, but the reality. And so, like you said, he doesn’t need to be fully indoctrinated in the way that we are into how academia affects your personal finances because you have things separate. Yeah, that makes sense. I didn’t think about that. That we do have to pay for more things out of pocket than maybe somebody else would in another kind of career, wow.

34:53 Michelle: Conferences, memberships for different societies and things like that. But, you know, I can only imagine if we were to actually have a joint account, he would be like, “Why do you need to spend a hundred dollars on this membership, tell me how that’s going to benefit you in your everyday life? And the answer is, “It doesn’t really, but it does help me network and that will help advance my career.” And, you know, we don’t have to have that conversation.

PhD Finances: Handling Changes in Income

35:22 Emily: Yeah. Very, very interesting. The other one that I thought of regarding PhD finances is changes in income. So you, for example, have gone from needing to take out student loan debt and so forth to having a very nice salary, presumably now, and maybe other PhDs have less dramatic swings, but usually the completion of PhD training does involve hopefully a pay raise at some point, probably a big one. So that’s just been, I don’t know how that would maybe affect advantages of one model or another, but it just does affect how you handle your finances in general. And you mentioned earlier living like a postdoc, which is a great sort of mantra to live like a college student, live like a graduate student, live like a postdoc, live like a resident. These are all meaning the same thing of live well below your means and maintaining your prior lifestyle even through income increases.

36:12 Emily: So, it’s just a good kind of personal finance strategy in general. I guess this might play a little bit into what I was mentioning earlier about income disparity. Like between me and my husband, we went from being more equal incomes to be more, at a time, more disparate. And yeah. So, if PhD do experience, let’s say hopefully a jump in income, having the joint model can be helpful, I guess, in the sense that like, you’re, I guess you’re kind of in it to gather because at a point when maybe one person isn’t contributing as much to the household, that can be sort of smoothed out, I guess over time by the other person’s income being more like stable or something like that. And the other thing is that there is an upside usually to PhD finances, which is that jump in income later. And so both people benefit from the upside, like you were talking about earlier, like you’re talking about how you and your husband together, the household might benefit from your now great increase in income by perhaps splitting the percentage a little bit differently with the joint model that sort of comes baked in, right?

37:18 Emily: Like both people enjoy the upside, but they also are together on the downside. So there’s, yeah. There are two parts of that. Just something to think about, I guess, with PhDs and those income swings is what you would prefer. I wouldn’t necessarily say it argues more for one or the other, but just something to consider.

37:36 Michelle: For us, my debt is a detriment to us buying a house, but my income increase is the asset. And so, the way that we’ve kind of balanced that is pay down my debt, which I’m doing and I’m taking ownership of, right? Because it’s mine, it’s, you know, our separate accounts, and he doesn’t ever have to think about that necessarily. While at the same time I’m paying down debt, he can take his income and stack it away in savings. And so, eventually what he’s been able to save will help us buy a house and my income level will help us buy a house.

Would You Consider Changing Your Finance Model?

38:18 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. So, you’re contributing, but it’s in like different ways kind of in the future. Yeah. That’s interesting. So, Michelle, do you see your model changing at any point? Do you foresee any circumstances that might cause you to reconsider this?

38:33 Michelle: I don’t think so. I don’t think so. It’s been working so well for 15 years that it’s hard to imagine a time when we would need to do something different.

38:46 Emily: Yeah. You guys have you have it down pat now, right?

38:49 Michelle: Yeah.

38:50 Emily: Yeah. I think on our side as I said, kind of earlier, as our income has increased as a household, we have more flexibility. Like, I sort of phrase it as when we had a lower income, we were much more strict about our budgeting and we had to agree a lot more. Now we have a little bit more autonomy because our income is higher. Like, if we want to do more discretionary spending. So, my husband’s really into buying electronics. Before we had sort of a strict budget on that. And I didn’t really care as long as he stayed within the budget, but it was kind of a low budget. Now, it’s more like, “Okay, you want to buy something?” He’ll talk to me about it. But ultimately I’m just like, “Well, if you want it, go ahead and get it.” We have much more flexibility now. And so that’s kind of, I guess, changed like our attitudes about it. I mean, everything is still joint and it’s still sort of a decision, but we just have a lot more freedom, I guess, both of us do to do more spending, should we choose to, or should we desire to.

39:48 Emily: I think that we will probably stick with the joint model because philosophically, it’s kind of like, we’re married, so we’re going to be joint. I’m not really opposed to the yours, mine and ours thing if it’s under the allowance model that I mentioned earlier. If maybe like, “Okay, you have a few hundred dollars a month, you can do whatever you want with and go ahead and I don’t need to know about it.” Like I can maybe see us moving to that at some point, but I don’t know necessarily why it would happen because it’s not something that causes friction for us right now. So, I don’t think it would in the future. But if it did, I’m okay with that allowance sort of system of it. I definitely don’t see us moving to being fully separate at any point, or even to the point where we would have our incomes be like deposited separately.

40:31 Emily: Because I just think, especially now that we have kids, it’s just the family, it’s just the household, like everything’s together. So yeah, I think the model will more or less stay as it is. Yeah. So, you know, Michelle, I appreciate you having this discussion with me so much and I hope the listeners have heard something that they resonated with for your model or for the model that I use or something that they disagree with and it’ll help them decide how things are going. It seems like things are really working well for you. So, I’m super happy about that. And obviously I feel that way about how things are working for us too. So, it just shows that, you know, people are different, relationships are different and how you handle your finances. It might look different. Like we, you know, we started off saying, okay, you do separate an I do joint. This is like, these are extremes on a spectrum. But really we can see that in both cases, the relationship has a shared vision of where we’re going in the future and agrees to a great deal, whether talked about or not, generally is an agreement with how things need to go. And yeah, the mechanics of it look a little bit different, but there’s a lot of commonality here as well. So, I was really happy to hear that. Any concluding thoughts from you?

41:34 Michelle: I would agree. I think both models can be effective and I think it ultimately will come down to what you value in your relationship. And as a person, that’s what’s going to drive your decision-making about what model you choose.

41:52 Emily: Yup, definitely. So, thank you so much Michelle.

41:54 Michelle: You’re welcome. Thank you.

Outtro

41:58 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Postdoc from a Low-Income Family Evolved Her Financial Attitudes and Practices During Her PhD Training

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Fushcia Hoover, a postdoc at the National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center. Fushcia grew up in a low-income family and graduated from college in 2009. Unable to find full-time work, she accelerated her plans to pursue graduate school, ultimately earning a PhD from Purdue University and winning an NSF Graduate Research Fellowship. Fuschia’s background imparted her with certain financial attitudes and skills that influenced her financial journey through her PhD and postdocs. On the positive side, she already knew how to keep her expenses low and she had enough discretionary income from her stipend to pay off her undergrad student loans, even while sending money home to her mother. On the negative side, she was unfamiliar with investing and understandably gun-shy after witnessing the stock market crash. Fushcia and Emily discuss how her financial attitudes and practices evolved during her PhD and first postdoc and why and how she negotiated her salary for her second postdoc position.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Fushcia: As a graduate student, postdoc, there’s this expectation that we just kind of have to accept things as they are. And, certainly in some cases, yes, that’s true. But I think in a lot of cases, there are always things that are negotiable and that are malleable. And I think a lot of that comes down to recognizing how valuable you are, not just as a person, but also as the work and your contribution.

Introduction

00:35 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode two, and today my guest is Dr. Fushcia Hoover, a postdoc at the National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center. Fuschia grew up in a low income family and graduated from college into the depths of the great recession. Those experiences, and parted her with certain financial attitudes and skills that influenced her financial journey through her PhD and postdocs. On the positive side, she already knew how to keep her expenses low, and she had enough discretionary income from her stipend to pay off her undergrad student loans. On the negative side, she was unfamiliar with investing and understandably gun shy after witnessing the stock market crash. Fushcia and I discuss how her financial attitudes and practices evolved during her PhD and first postdoc, and why and how she negotiated her salary for her second postdoc position. You absolutely do not want to miss her concluding words of encouragement for all PhDs, but especially those in marginalized groups. By the way we recorded this interview in October, 2019. Without further ado. Here’s my interview with Dr. Fushcia Hoover.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:54 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Fushcia Hoover, tnd she’s going to be Talking to us about her background, coming from a low income family and ultimately entering graduate school and a couple of different postdocs. And what she has picked up and learned about finances along the way and the work she’s done on her own mindset. I’m really excited about this episode. Fushcia, thank you so much for joining me, and will you tell the audience a little bit more about yourself please?

02:17 Fushcia: Thank you so much for having me I’m happy to be here. I am a engineer by training. My graduate degrees are all from Purdue University, Ag and Bioengineering, but I actually got my degrees from an interdisciplinary program, the ecological sciences and engineering program at Purdue. And so a lot of my research that I do now, as well as my dissertation work, looks at both social and ecological aspects of storm water management and the way green spaces and green infrastructure can be used to reduce runoff during rainfall events, but then what are the different environmental justice potential impacts. Then recently I have also started incorporating black geography theory, which looks a bit more at the way that people and places are connected and the historical and cultural connections between those two, and what that means in terms of storm water management planning and where we place green spaces and green infrastructure. That’s kind of where I’m at now, so I like to call myself, well, it always changes, but currently I call myself a socio-ecological systems hydrologist.

03:45 Emily: That is so fascinating, that the arc of your work has gone in that direction, from the technological to the more sociological. Okay, great. And so you said you have your all degrees from Purdue, bachelors through PhD, is that right?

04:00 Fushcia: No. My bachelor’s is actually from the University of St. Thomas, which is based in Saint Paul, Minnesota, where I originally am from and grew up. That degree was mechanical engineering, as my bachelor’s. And then I also had a minor in Middle Eastern studies. I’ve always been interested in balancing my science and the technical work that I do with more social and cultural components. That’s where I started and I’ve just been traveling the Midwest sense, but now I’m on the East coast.

04:34 Emily: Yeah. So tell us about your positions that you’ve had since you’ve finished.

04:39 Fushcia: Yeah, so I finished in 2017. My first postdoc was through the National Academy of Sciences. And that’s called National Research Council graduate fellowship, or post graduate fellowship, I believe. That was based at the Environmental Protection Agency in Cincinnati, Ohio. I was there for a year and eight months, so almost two years. Then, my contract for that ended, and my boss and I weren’t sure if there was going to be additional funding, so I had been applying to other postdocs, one of which is the one I’m currently in, which is with the, this is very long, so bear with me, the National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, um, or SESYNC for short, and that’s in Annapolis, Maryland. So both very research focused. All I do is research. At the time I wasn’t interested in going into academia. Things have changed since. Then I worked in this position with Sarah Moreau, who is a faculty at Arizona State University.

05:52 Emily: Gotcha. So interesting that you just dropped in there that you’re now more interested in academia than you were before. People don’t usually go in that direction, but not the subject of our interview today. I’ll have to follow-up about that another time.

Growing up in a Low-Income Family

06:05 Emily: Let’s take a step back even further to your childhood and then basically your time going through college and up until you entered graduate school. Just really briefly, what was your financial experience during that time?

06:18 Fushcia: My mom is a single parent and I have a twin sister as well, so it was the two of us and our mom. We grew up in a single parent households and we had been low income for the duration of my childhood into early adulthood. Certainly for anyone that is from, I think either one of those demographics, there was a lot of like coupons and buying things either on sale or clearance or discount. On and off throughout growing up, we would have access to food stamps, depending on what my mom’s specific financial situation was at the time. The great thing about growing up in Minnesota was that there were and are amazing social services. In terms of basic needs like healthcare, we were on the free and reduced lunch program, we always had all those things. So it actually took me a very long time to realize that we were low income because of that. It was, I think until seventh grade, when I realized that lunch wasn’t free. I just thought that was a service everybody got and people who brought their lunch, that was just a preference. I really grew up in that environment of saving and being very conscious about spending.

07:53 Fushcia: My mom was also very open with us in terms of explaining why we could only get things on sale, but I think the child, part of me was still like, well, if she wanted to, we could get this, but she’s just being a mom. You know, “parents are mean” type of childhood mentality. It wasn’t until I got older, I was like, “Oh yeah, that makes sense.”

Loans and Scholarships During Undergrad

08:21 Emily: Yeah. Thanks for telling us about that. Then, when you got to college, what was the situation then? You mentioned the school that you went to, but was it private or public, and how did you fund it?

08:34 Fushcia: It’s the largest private university in the state of Minnesota, and I was fortunate there was a college access program and I was part of in high school called College Possible. I made my sister join as well, so we were both part of the program and it helped teach us about scholarships, applying for college, doing college visits, as well as like practicing the ACT, which is what most of the Midwest takes as the college entrance exam. I think I had applied to between 20 and 30 scholarships as a senior, and then the ones that I was awarded, combined with, I received a full tuition scholarship from the University of St. Thomas based on my academic record and I’d done a lot of community service as a high school student as well. So through that, I was actually receiving refund checks, which is pretty rare.

09:45 Fushcia: A big part of the conversation my mom had with us in terms of college was that she could not afford to send us to college and she could not afford to co-sign on a loan. So my sister and I were very diligent about then seeking out money and applying for scholarships and finding resources that could help us pay our way, or in my case get paid, through college. I took out two loans, one for my last semester of college, and then for a January term study abroad. When I finished, I had about $7,000 in debt and that was all within Sallie Mae at the time, so one was subsidized and one was un-subsidized.

10:40 Emily: That is really good. I mean, to have access to that program, first of all, maybe that was part and parcel with the general great services you had access to in Minnesota, but yeah, that set you up amazingly and to of course then put in the work and get the scores and do the scholarships and everything that, I mean, it’s clear why that happened and why you ended up in that position. So your tuition, you had a scholarship. You had enough scholarships coming in to cover the room and board and so forth, so that you’re actually receiving at sometimes a little bit of money back. Then you took out some small student loans for part of that experience. So coming out of college, about $7,000 worth of student loans and you didn’t go immediately to graduate school, is that right?

11:19 Fushcia: Yeah, that’s correct. And I actually forgot, I did have, I think it was maybe like a $3,000 loan from Wells Fargo, which, well, maybe I can save this for the end as one of my pieces of advice, but at the time I didn’t know about kind of self-loans or just the loan system. My checking and savings were through Wells Fargo, and I was like, “okay”, not knowing that that doesn’t allow you to defer your loan and that the rates are higher.

11:52 Fushcia: When I graduated, in 2009, which if you remember, was kind of the peak of the financial crisis.

12:03 Emily: Yeah, the worst year to be graduating.

12:05 Fushcia: Yes, it was a horrible year to graduate. I didn’t have a job. I had started working part time for a program that I was a part of while at St. Thomas. And then I had transitioned into working for a program called AVID or the Advancement Via Individual Determination, which was located in the public — well, it’s a national program, but I specifically worked within the Saint Paul public school system. Tthat was part time as well. So I was doing that, I had moved back home, I was living with my mom and barely able to pay my $50 a month minimum for my Wells Fargo loan. I had been able to put it into forbearance for six months. That was the only thing that they would allow me to do. It was actually a very…I was very stressed. Thankfully, living with my mom helped cut down on a lot of expenses, but it was a lot of penny pinching. I think my income was maybe $500 a month, before taxes. So, trying to give my mom something and then basically pay for my cell phone and basic expenses and then this loan. That was my financial situation upon graduating.

Starting Graduate School in the Midst of the Great Recession

13:39 Emily: And did the difficulty in finding work of that year, the peak year, did that play in your decision to go to graduate school or had that always been the plan?

13:48 Fushcia: I’d always wanted to go to graduate school. I did not want to go right away. I was really mentally and emotionally exhausted after undergrad.

13:59 Emily: I know that feeling.

14:01 Fushcia: Yes, and I think a lot of us have those feelings even after grad school as well. I think the only difference was that I went to grad school sooner than if I would have had a full time job. I worked part time for almost two years before going back to grad school, because I also wanted to make sure that I wanted to go back and I didn’t know what I wanted to go back for quite yet. I knew I wanted to stay within engineering, but I didn’t know…I knew a lot of what I didn’t want to do. I took that time to figure out the programs and the schools of interest and what my potential research interests could be.

14:49 Emily: Gotcha. So when you entered graduate school, was that actually an increase in your income from working, I guess it’s still part time technically in graduate school, but was your income higher than at that point?

15:02 Fushcia: It was. It’s funny, a lot of people talk about how poor graduate students are and how we’re going to pay, and we are. I certainly agree that for the work that we’re doing, all graduate students should be paid more. But it was such a jump in income for me. I think especially going into an engineering program at Purdue, I think my monthly income was about $2,500 per month. All of a sudden, not only did I have a higher income, but I also had a dependable income. And it was an income that I was going to be getting, regardless of my hours that I put it in. That was the first time being on a salary, and having something that I was like, “okay, wow, I can pay my bills, I can pay my loans, and that’s not something that I’m going to have to worry about. Where’s this money going to come from? Am I going to make my minimum payment this month?” It was a big relief for me in a lot of ways.

16:13 Emily: Yeah. And I would imagine that stipend goes pretty far in Lafayette, Indiana, does it not?

Employing Frugal Strategies in Grad School

16:19 Fushcia: Oh yes, it does. And I very much…I had two roommates, I didn’t have a car either. I had a bicycle, so I was pretty much biking or Lafayette, if you’re a student, or basically if you are affiliated with Purdue and you have a Purdue ID, then you get to take the public transportation system for free, so I wasn’t having to spend money there. It was really just groceries and utilities and rent split between three people. I found a lot of ways to reduce the amount of expenses that I had because then I had also then started sending money back to my mom. I was sending her about $300 every month. Definitely trying to funnel resources and reduce costs.

17:09 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you took a lot of the the strategies that you’d been using prior to that point, and also some of the mindsets you’d had to that point. That was what you applied right then. You found the low cost living situation, you used the public transit instead of owning a car, so you really reduce your expenses right off. But it sounds like still, even with sending your mom money, you probably had a good bit of discretionary money to be working with, above the bills that needed to be paid. What did you start doing in your personal finances at that point? What did you have to learn about since you now finally have this discretionary money to do what you want with? What did you learn about what did you apply in your life?

Paying off Student Loans During Graduate School

17:49 Fushcia: It’s funny, I had taken a financial literacy workshop before I started graduate school, and that was more focused on like budgeting and saving and negotiating whether you pay off credit card debt first, or if you have student loans and how you prioritize your debts. The biggest thing, aside from sending money home to my mom was that I started making monthly payments on the undergraduate loans that I had. I targeted the Wells Fargo private loan first, and then —

18:28 Emily: I just have a follow up about that. Were those loans, at least maybe the federal ones, in deferment at that point?

18:34 Fushcia: They were, yes.

18:36 Emily: And what about the Wells Fargo one? Was that in deferment?

18:38 Fushcia: No, the Wells Fargo, my forbearance had ended after the first six months, from me finishing my undergrad degree. I had only been making $50 a month payments, so you can imagine on a $3,000 loan, that’s not very much. So I kicked that up and I think I started making either between $150 and $200 loan payments every month. So about $500 every month was going to this one particular loan and then my mom. Then the rest that was remaining after bills and rent, I was just putting into savings or using for other expenses like going out to eat or going home for the holidays, things like that.

19:34 Emily: What I like to call irregular expenses.

19:37 Fushcia: Yes, irregular expenses.

19:38 Emily: The ones that can really mess up your cashflow if you try to pay for them in just one month. How long did it take you then? Did you just keep working in paying down those loans straight before adding any other goals to the picture and how long did it take you to pay them off?

19:50 Fushcia: I did. I had paid off my Wells Fargo loan by the end of my masters, so just under two years, and then my government loans, it took about two and a half. I don’t remember if it was two and a half or three years. I think part of the decision why, even though those loans were in deferment, one of them was unsubsidized, so it was gaining interest. And I think because of coming from low income background, and even though I was in this position where I had a steady paycheck, I was still really worried that it would end. Certainly, I knew the degree would end and I wasn’t sure what my income would look like after that, and I didn’t want to have that stress. I think I might’ve been the only one I knew of my friends with loans from undergrad who was actively paying it down.

20:54 Fushcia: That was my goal, was to have zero debt by the time I graduated from Purdue. Pretty much all of the focus was on paying off those loans. Then I would typically have anywhere from like $200 to $400 that I would just put into savings every month.

21:17 Emily: I will say, in my contact with graduate students, some people do, but it’s on the rare side to be working on paying down student loans while in graduate school. I think yours because they’re relatively small, might…I think some people get really defeatist about student loans. Especially if you have more than a hundred thousand dollars or multiple tens of thousands of dollars of student loans, it can feel really, really daunting, and why even bother like getting started on your low salary during graduate school. But I think yours, they were a fraction of what you made in a given year, and so it felt like something that you could tackle, probably. And like you were saying, you had that fear of, well, what if your program ends for whatever reason? Well, then the loans are coming out of deferment, you have to make at least minimum payments, and then what’s your income going to be? You don’t know. That decision definitely makes sense to me.

Commercial

22:12 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

Personal Finance Mindset Shift During and Post-PhD

22:58 Emily: Did you do anything else within your personal finances during graduate school, aside from paying off those loans and then also building up savings?

23:06 Fushcia: No. I had conversations, I talked with a couple of friends who were working about IRAs and investments, but it was all very intimidating. I think for me, at the time, it was easier to just put my money in savings and then I could also see it, and there wasn’t like a fear of losing it. With investments, I think particularly because of being an adult through the stock market crash, and also remembering when Enron went under and people’s entire pensions were lost. I have a, I wouldn’t say a strong distrust, but I would say I’m very kind of apathetic and very wary of different financial institutions. Even Sallie Mae and Freddie Mac and all of those. For me, I was like, “nope, I want to have my money with me, so I’m putting it in my savings account.” By then I had also transferred to a credit union, so I felt a lot more secure about credit unions as financial institutions, int that I’m an owner in this. And I have amplified checking, so then I was getting, I don’t remember what the return is, but it’s a couple percent return. I was like, “okay, I like this. I can make money from my own money.” Even though I had those conversations with a lot of friends who had higher income backgrounds or whose families did, and so these were conversations that they had. It still wasn’t something I felt comfortable really digging into because I think part of me still felt like I didn’t have the financial security yet to start investing.

25:05 Emily: Yeah. It’s interesting. I graduated from college in 2007, so two years before you did, so before the crisis hit and I was safely in graduate school, by the time everything went down. But I took away like a different kind of financial trauma from that whole period, which is that I’m very gun shy about the housing market. I’ve still always been a renter. I have yet to buy my first home. And that’s partially because, while I didn’t personally experience, all the media coverage is about people losing their homes and foreclosures. So while I was very gung ho about getting into the stock market and I was able to experience the rise right after the crash, it’s still is something that lingers with me regarding the housing. It’s just interesting to talk to someone near a similar age who had some witnessing and some stake in everything that happened and what’s lingering.

Investing

25:58 Emily: Actually, maybe you’ve turned this around since then. You were talking about during graduate school, you were nervous to start investing. And I think it actually is really smart to build up the cash savings to get the debt paid off before embarking on that. At what point did you, or have you started to invest?

26:14 Fushcia: I started a few months, maybe six months into my first postdoc. By the time I finished at Purdue, I had about a four month break where I was job searching and then preparing for a move, and I had saved up about maybe $5,000 to $6,000 in savings. One of things that I did start doing was also using credit cards as a way to prepare for high cost expenses. I had opened a card, um, just before I graduated so that it allowed me to have 18 months of 0% APR because I knew I’m not going to have a job. I was at a part time job that I got to cover basic things, but in terms of, I have to move, that card held all of those expenses. Then once I started my postdoc and getting paid, I worked on paying that down, and since I had 18 months, there was no rush. But then, because I was like, “Okay, I have a job.” As an engineer coming in for an NRC, my stipend was $69,000 for the year, which certainly is very high compared to a lot of postdocs, but I think most of the federal agencies, you’re going to see a higher salary, that’s closer to what a full time federal employee would be making

27:55 Emily: And for you in particular that’s over double what you had been making her in graduate school.

27:59 Fushcia: Yes. Well, and I should say that my first year of my master’s I applied for and was awarded a National Science Foundation GRFP, so I think that also really allowed me to focus on my debt because then I was making $30K. I still had to account for the taxes, which was not fun, but compared to my friends in college of liberal arts, who were in English or social science making $13K, that’s a big difference. One of the things that I actually learned from you was while I was in my first postdoc, I joined the National Postdoc Association, and you were a guest. This would have been a couple of years now. I watched your webinar, when you gave a presentation. From that point, I looked more into kind of the difference between an IRA and a independent tax account and figuring out, okay, with NRC, it’s the same thing. They don’t take out taxes. And so then —

29:19 Emily: I’ll jump in there and say, because you were on fellowship, because you were not technically an employee, I’m just explaining for the listener, you wouldn’t have had access to the workplace based retirement account, whatever that would be, that they would offer to their full time employees. So you’re still dealing with a stipend, you still have to handle the taxes manually, and you’re really only tax advantaged retirement option would be an IRA. Nothing was being offered through your employer, because you didn’t have an employer.

29:47 Fushcia: Yes. I was a contractor. I did a little bit of…well, I should say I did a lot of research trying to figure out then where I wanted to open an account. I actually ended up going with an online system called Betterment because I did not have the time to actually look into managing my own investments. I think because so much stuff is online, it also made it easy for me, so then I didn’t have to find an office location to go into. In my postdoc now we are considered faculty of the University of Maryland and the University of Maryland is a state run system, so we actually have mandatory investment portfolios and the portfolio that I chose is through the I don’t remember the, the full meaning, but it’s TIAA.

30:53 Emily: Yeah. I don’t know what it stands for either, but TIAA or TIAA CREF.

30:57 Fushcia: I still have my betterment accounts and I haven’t decided how much I’ll be putting into it. They take out just over 7% from my salary for the TIAA account, so I need to figure out what that balance is going to look like. Now I was like, okay, it’s probably about time. I was a little bit nervous about being older, like 31, and just starting to invest. But I think because I don’t have any debts and because, well I have a little bit of credit card debt, but I also just moved for this postdoc. I think that’s why I was finally at a point where I feel confident that I will have a job and I will continue to have income and that’s not going to be something I’ll be lacking anymore. And so now I can fully invest having confidence in, well the system is still problematic, but I at least have confidence that I’m not going to wake up and be without a job.

Learning Debt Management Strategies

32:12 Emily: You said earlier there were maybe some things that you brought out of your childhood that you had an aversion towards debt. A smart one. But you also maybe weren’t exposed to conversations around investing and IRAs, maybe like some of your peers were. Was there anything else that you kind of felt maybe you were a little bit out of step with other people during graduate school, or during your postdocs regarding personal finance. And anything you had to learn or mindsets to change or overcome?

32:44 Fushcia: I think I definitely learned about the healthy ways that you can use credit cards to manage certain debts. I think that that came from conversations with a close friend when I moved for my postdoc. I opened a card to buffer that, and a lot of that helped and realizing that all debt doesn’t have to be bad. That it can help you create a credit score and debt management techniques and strategies, and build out this financial portfolio that can actually then make you have a higher score and more competitive for other loans and things like that. A lot of that came from conversations with friends who had either taught themselves that, or they learned it by proxy from their parents. Just asking about their debt and how they managed it, and then also asking, are you afraid that you won’t pay it off or are you afraid that it’s going to be there forever? Certainly, I remember an ex of mine, she was like, “Yeah, it’s just going be there, and it’s just this thing that I have, and I’ll make payments, and it sucks, but also I have the education that I wanted to get and I’m in the job that I I think through those conversations, it definitely helps release some of the anxiety and like intense fear around debt.

34:48 Fushcia: Listening to webinars or reading your blog, for example, and just trying to educate myself more, so that I’m more informed and that’s definitely alleviated a lot of the fear and anxiety, but I think I still like coupons, I still like things on sale. It’s still really hard for me to pay full price for clothing or a pair of shoes that’s a hundred dollars. I’m like, no, can’t do that. Like you, I’ve been a renter this whole time and I don’t know if I want to buy property or a home. I did buy a car when I moved to Cincinnati, and so I’m making those monthly payments now. Part of it is also okay, well, I’m going to make these payments and pay off my car and then maybe see where I’m at in terms of, if I’m in a permanent position that then I feel more comfortable buying a home. I think some of the approaches I still have to managing that is to have one type of debt at a time. Take on debt, pay it off and take on a new debt, pay it off.

36:10 Emily: Yeah, it sounds like you really have learned much more about, as you were saying earlier, debt management or how you can use debt as a tool, especially to avoid large expenditures of cash. Because it sounds like you still have cash savings to a degree, but it’s more about not wanting to let go of that and using debt to help you basically just hold both to have the cash and to have the debt, so that you can feel, feel more secure around it. Is that right?

36:39 Fushcia: Yeah. I think that’s a really good way of kind of summing that up.

Negotiating a Post-Doc Salary

36:44 Emily: Yeah. And then the other thing that you mentioned that you wanted to talk about in this interview was negotiating your salary, which is also kind of another mindset leap, right? Like not only, maybe from someone coming from the kind of background that you have, but also just being in academia where like with your first postdoc, negotiation is not really an option, but it sounds like you did at your first opportunity, negotiate. Can you tell us how that worked?

37:09 Fushcia: Yeah. To be honest, a lot of it was just like, I know I need to practice this because I know I’ll have to do it at some point, so let me just practice it now because it’s lower stakes.

37:21 Emily: Yeah. Good point.

37:25 Fushcia: Part of that came from in your webinar you had been talking about kind of how you plan for transitions. So either going from your degree to a postdoc, postdoc to a full time permanent position, and managing the moving costs and change in expenses. I had sat down and looked at essentially the cost of living for Annapolis and estimating what my costs are now, and what’s expected to grow. The majority of that, it’s about a 300% increase in housing expenses from Cincinnati to Annapolis. I started there and then looked at how much would I want in savings or investments, and then worked with the business office at SESYNC to then figure out is there a parking cost? Learning about the exact percentage rate that they take out for retirement or investments. Trying to find what are all the other hidden costs and expenses that come with this position so that I could factor that into my budget and then know what would my minimum salary need to be, because I know my minimum payments for my car. I know my cell phone payments. Those are things that I know and then wanting to make sure that it had wiggle room.

38:54 Fushcia: Then I think on top of that, I also wanted to try and stay as close as possible to what I was already making. Certainly, it can be challenging to do that with a different type of postdoc, particularly because this one’s affiliated with the University of Maryland, academic post docs are much slower. But I didn’t want to have this $20,000 drop, because the great thing about the NRC was that they gave a $1,500 increase every year. I came in at $69,000, but then the next year I was making $70,500. So it’s like, okay, well, how close can we get to this?

39:38 Fushcia: Again, a lot of it was using my network, and talking to in particular, a good friend who is now at Cornell. She had just finished her PhD, and she had negotiated her position. Asking her for advice and resources and how you frame what you’re negotiating for and the language that you use so that it’s still appropriate and respectful, but that you’re still firm, in terms of, these are my skills, particularly because I was coming out of a postdoc. I already have almost two years of experience post-PhD, and I’ll have all these other publications, and knowing different questions to ask.

40:22 Fushcia: I wrote up this letter, had a few people review it. Ironically, when I asked my former PhD advisor, she was like, “We don’t do that. If someone were to do that, maybe I’d give like a two to 3000 increase.” But when I had looked up other negotiation strategies on Inside Higher Ed, I used a lot of their articles. They mentioned, I think it’s 15% to 22% is typically what you negotiate as your range, particularly if it’s not a lateral position, if you’re moving up. So I was like, “Okay, we’re going to go for 15%.” And they did not give it to me, but they came close. From there I went back and said, “Okay, based on this salary, could I make it work?” And I could. It’s going to be tight, which is a bit frustrating to have a point where you have more flexibility and you have more expendable income and now it feels a little bit more like being a grad student again where it’s a smaller salary. I have to be more conscious of where my money is going and not spending as much as I was, particularly now that I have a car and all the expenses that are associated with that. But I know that I have the skills to make it work. And at this point I’m also looking for a permanent position after this postdoc. I don’t anticipate after this two year position, being in a situation where I have to kind of penny pinch and reduce costs elsewhere.

42:23 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you approach that — I mean, it’s clear that you did a lot of research and preparation through that process, not only taking what you learned from the webinar that I gave, but also this research you did with the articles in Inside Higher Ed and in speaking with your friend. You really prepared for that and kind of the best way possible, so it’s a great, it’s a great model for the listeners to hear, especially because you knew that you were going into an almost guaranteed income drop and also a cost of living increase. Both of those factors just highlight the need for being really careful around this. And if your academic advisor said, well, this isn’t done, I mean, it is, it is done sometimes, in some places. Maybe no one’s ever attempted it with her.

43:06 Emily: I want to point the listeners to one of my resources, which is postdocsalaries.com. And there’s also another one PhDstipends.com, for those in graduate school. It’s kind of like a Glassdoor, but for those types of positions, for postdocs and for grad student positions. That’s just another resource out there, if people want to get benchmarks on what is reasonable to be paid for different kinds of postdocs in different areas of the country. And I also ask questions about negotiation on that survey. I think the last time I looked in the database, it was around 25% or maybe a third of the people who had answered the questions had said, yes, I at least attempted to negotiate salary or benefits for the postdoc position. I think it’s becoming more and more popular, as people realize that this is a standard thing you do in most jobs, and why don’t we at least try it in these academic or nonacademic postdocs. That was great story.

43:58 Fushcia: Well, and I think too, salary, while I think it is very important, isn’t the only thing that you can negotiate. You can negotiate moving expenses and you can negotiate time off. I also negotiated my start time because I wanted to finish through my contract at the EPA before coming to SESYNC. That was something that I successfully negotiated. I had picked my top three things of these are the things that I would like, so we’ll see where they can meet me. There’s another postdoc who negotiated because he also was coming out of a previous postdoc and then everyone else who we’ve talked to, we were having a conversation and they were like, I didn’t know that you could do that. And we were like, all they can say is no, especially once they offer you a position, if they want you. If you don’t ask, you’ll never know.

45:02 Fushcia: I would also say for all the listeners that if you are going to any type of public institution, you can look up everyone’s salary, that’s all publicly accessible information. And that was something that I did to give me a sense of what are the ranges for the people that are employed within the center. I had an idea of what their budget is to figure out do I ask for the 15% or I do I ask for the 20% to 25%.

45:29 Emily: Yeah, that’s a great advantage when you’re going to those types of places, that there’s a large degree of transparency around salary there. That’s an amazing thing to look up, if that’s where you’re applying.

Best Financial Advice for an Early Career PhD

45:41 Emily: Last question here, Fushcia, as we wrap up — what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something that we have touched on in this interview, or it could be something completely else.

45:53 Fushcia: I think my first piece of advice would be to do as much research as you can. As grad students, we’re training basically how to do research and conduct research. I think we already have a lot of the skills to be able to access these resources and information and find ways or people to help us get there. I would say that most of the way that I have navigated my finances has been through talking to friends, talking to people who are in positions where I see myself going, and just doing the research and using the academic online journals that are available or financial journals, blogs, anything, and everything that you can capture to try and help inform what the decision that will be best for you, or rather the best decision for you.

47:00 Fushcia: The second thing that I would say is to give yourself more value and credit than what you would default to. I think as a graduate student, postdoc, there’s this expectation that we just kind of have to accept things as they are. And certainly in some cases, yes, that’s true. But I think in a lot of cases, there are always things that are negotiable and that are malleable. I think a lot of that comes down to recognizing how valuable you are, not just as a person, but also as the work and your contributions and that the majority of the people in this country do not have PhDs, so you’re bringing in a very valuable skillset, which, when you’re going into a space where everybody has PhDs, it may not seem like that, but I think it’s important to remind yourself of that.

48:05 Fushcia: I think especially, I say this to women postdocs, women of color, black women postdocs, we are already underestimated in many way. We are already underpaid in many ways, thinking about your initial salary offer or associated benefits. I think because of all the work that’s coming out from the national academies and other research centers about this still huge discrepancy across all fields, I think I use that as a way to empower me to ask for more. Because now it’s not just valuing my work and what I bring, but also recognizing that I’m already going to be undervalued, because of what I look like when I come in the room. I think that would be the last piece of advice that I would say for all the postdocs out there. And this includes folks who are femme or femme-identified. If you’re any type of on the marginalized periphery, ask for more, because again, all they can say is no. And if they take back that offer, then that’s probably not a place you want to go in the first place. Because you want to go where you’re going to be celebrated and valued. Give yourself more value than what you default to.

49:39 Emily: I think you put that so well. That was great. I have nothing to add there. Just everybody go back and listen to that again, listen to it a few more times, especially if you’re in one of these groups that Fuschia just identified. Absolutely.

49:50 Emily: Well, thank you so much for this wonderful interview and it was really a pleasure to speak with you today.

49:54 Fushcia: Yes. Thank you so much. This was really fun. I hope that whoever’s listening has been able to take something away, even if it’s just to know that you’re not the only one that’s in grad school who’s from a low income background or is having anxiety or fear around debt or salary. That’s that’s normal and also you will be okay. Everything will be fine.

50:23 Emily: Love that. Thank you so much.

50:25 Fushcia: Yes. Thank you.

Outtro

50:27 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

This New PhD’s Salary Tripled But Her Scarcity Mindset Lingered

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Samantha Snively, a PhD in literature who recently transitioned to a non-academic job at the University of California at Davis. Samantha tells the story of her financial and logistical transition out of graduate school with an emphasis on the unexpected emotions that arose upon receiving a much higher and steadier income. Samantha and Emily also discuss how to shed the scarcity mindset imparted by academia and the distinction between lifestyle inflation and lifestyle catch-up.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

PhD scarcity mindset

Teaser

00:00 Samantha: And you get so used to doing a lot of work as a graduate student for very little pay that it does distort your sense of what you’re worth, what your skills are worth, what anyone wants to pay for your skills.

Introduction

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode one, and today my guest is Dr. Samantha Snively. Samantha transitioned out of graduate school last year and into a nonacademic job at her Alma mater. Samantha’s income tripled and became much more reliable upon taking the job which brought forth some unexpected emotions. We discuss the mental shifts that Samantha is working through, such as healing her scarcity mindset, as well as processing the difference between lifestyle inflation and lifestyle catch-up. I highly recommend listening to this very insightful conversation. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Samantha Snively.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:06 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Samantha Snively. I’m very excited to have her on. She’s going to be talking to us about kind of the emotional and financial rollercoaster of transitioning out of graduate school and into a professional career. So, Samantha, I’m so delighted to have you on. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for our listeners?

01:27 Samantha: Absolutely. Thank you for having me, Emily. I am delighted to be talking about this topic with you. My name is Samantha Snively. I am currently working as a proposal writer in higher ed development for the University of California Davis, but just this past June, I received my PhD from UC Davis, a PhD in English literature, and I focused on and wrote a dissertation on experimental culture and scientific knowledge-making in 17th century England, particularly focusing on women’s writing and women’s work in the household. So, I finished that and moved pretty quickly into a nonacademic job in service at the university, but not on the tenure track.

Transition Out of Grad School

02:08 Emily: Gotcha. So this is actually really fresh for you. We’re recording this interview in January, 2020. So, it’s only in the last six, nine months. Can you tell us a little bit more details about the timing of your transition out of graduate school and those sorts of other logistical details?

02:24 Samantha: Absolutely. So I realized in my second to last year in graduate school that I didn’t want to make a tenure track run. More importantly, that I did want to work in a job where I could advocate for the importance of research and the importance of universities and higher ed and the importance of the humanities. So, I started looking for jobs in November, 2018 because I wasn’t in a position financially to not have a job after graduation. So, I wanted to start that search early. I started my search in November with the goal of having a job by June, 2019 graduation time.

02:59 Samantha: And just very briefly, I think I had my first phone interview for a job in late December. My first in-person in early January. And then in the job I’m working in now, that moved pretty quickly. I applied back in November, had no sense of what was happening. I had thought they’d forgotten about me. And then I got a surprise phone screen in late January from the person who’s currently my boss. And from there, it moved really quickly. They asked for writing samples. I sent them in. They sent a writing test. That was a model of what we do on a day-to-day basis. They seemed to like that, so I had an in person interview, another writing test. They called me back for another in-person interview and a conversation with leadership. And I think I had a job offer by mid February, 2019. So, I started the job this past April, and I got my degree in June.

Was this Good Timing for You?

03:55 Emily: I see. It’s actually, it’s so hard to get the timing of this right, right? When do you apply? When do you reasonably think you will get a job offer and then what your start date is going to be? All of that against already the complications we have of timing a defense date and writing the dissertation. And there are a lot of moving parts at once. And so I’m wondering was that a good timing for you the way it worked out for you? Or if you had your ideal world, would it have been a little bit different?

04:23 Samantha: That’s a great question. Yes and no, this job search has been an exercise in getting what you need and not necessarily what you want. So, I think in an ideal world, I would have liked to finish the dissertation, graduate, and then start a job. But the way it worked out ended up working well for me, because it avoided the anxiety of being unemployed after finishing the degree. And I intentionally made the choices I did to avoid some of that anxiety. So, I’m very happy with the way it turned out, because it alleviated a lot of my biggest worries, but also the job search taught me that sometimes you have to compromise. I targeted my search in Seattle where my longterm partner lives. And I am not in Seattle. I am working in Sacramento. So, it works out in a way that is good for you, but perhaps not the way you originally envisioned. So, I’m very happy now, but I don’t think that this is where I thought I would be like a year ago.

Negotiated Start Date

05:23 Emily: It is really hard to see, especially with your transitioning to a job outside of academia, if you don’t have prior work experience, it’s really hard to know all these things, but that’s why we tell these stories, right? Because it’ll help people coming along behind. You mentioned that you weren’t in a financial position to have a lapse in income. Did your paycheck from the university, the one part of the university end over here on a Friday and Monday it’s going to pick up in this other part of the university, or did you actually have a little bit of a gap? Did you take any kind of a break, or what was the situation?

05:57 Samantha: The answer to both is no. But again, I was grateful for that. So, I got the job offer in February. I negotiated to be able to start a bit later than they would have liked. So, I had to finish out the quarter. UC Davis is on the quarter system. I had commitments in the quarter. I had a couple of part time jobs I needed to transition out of. And so I finished up the last week of the quarter, which was the second to last week of March. I took a break for the final week of March and then started the first day of April. And so there was no gap financially because I think the March paycheck from grad school got me into April and then the next pay cycle got me into May. I don’t know that I’d recommend that fast of a transition if you are able to do it, but it was anxiety-relieving for me. And it helped me focus on other things rather than stressing about money.

06:50 Emily: Yeah. And you just mentioned negotiation there. You negotiated the start date. Did you attempt, or were you successful in negotiating any other aspect of your package?

07:00 Samantha: I did attempt to negotiate. But because I work for UC Davis, which is part of the state of California, the salary bands are all set and were publicly posted. So, I did know the range that I would be going in. And so there was, I suspected there was not a lot of room to negotiate and I was correct. But I did ask for the practice, and I’m glad I did, but no, I did not have the opportunity to negotiate. But the financial compensation package was, I was very happy with it. So, the negotiating start date with what I needed.

Emotional Response to the Salary Offer

07:34 Emily: You mentioned you have a little bit of financial precarity. You receive this job offer, you receive the salary offer, you’re looking at it, what’s running through your mind? What are you feeling?

07:44 Samantha: Frankly, shock at first. The posted salary band was part of the reason I originally thought I wouldn’t be qualified for the job because it was almost three times what I was making as a graduate student. And you get so used to doing a lot of work as a graduate student for very little pay that it does distort your sense of what you’re worth, what your skills are worth, what anyone wants to pay for your skills. So, at first I couldn’t believe it. It’s like, is there a number of extra here? Is something going on? And I think perhaps the second emotion was relief because I realized I didn’t have to worry about the things I’ve been worrying about for the past several years. Honestly, where is the next paycheck coming from? Will I be able to ever take a vacation? Will I ever be able to live in the same city as my partner? Will I ever be able to save for further than six months down the road?

08:38 Samantha: So, relief was a big part of it. It allowed me to settle in to my new life and to have a bit of space to breathe and to really reflect on what I wanted to be doing and who I was and who I had become after graduate school. So, that was good. And I think the next big emotion that I noticed was guilt. Surprise, surprise. You spend six years in a graduate program, working continuously and in a culture of overwork that can often be toxic. And so when I moved into a job that was an eight to five schedule with a very generous boss, everyone was very flexible about their hours. I started to have feelings of guilt about taking a lunch break because I thought, well, if the, if the pay is so high, surely I must need to work enough to meet that pay. And it took me a while, several months, and it’s even still lingering today, to realize that it is okay to take a lunch break. It is okay to have a doctor’s appointment, period. You know, working through those feelings of guilt because the value of my labor is suddenly so much higher than it was a year ago, even though I’m doing very much the same kinds of things, that was an adjustment as well.

09:56 Emily: This is so interesting. I want to comment on both of those emotions. If you don’t mind, I’m going to tell a slightly lengthy story. It’s actually not about myself, but it’s about my reaction when my husband got his first post-PhD job offer. I’ll link in the show notes to a blog post where I wrote about this, but basically what happened is my husband was in Seattle interviewing for the job that he ultimately took. They offered it to him and he took it. And while he was actually flying from Seattle back to Durham, I knew the flight times and knew he was in the air, I was using his computer and I saw an email come into his inbox that was from the company that he had been interviewing with. And it was the job offer, and it included the salary. And, you know, listeners are probably pretty familiar with my story, like my husband and I worked very hard and we’re very fortunate. And actually were in a very good place with our finances for graduate students during the time when we were in graduate school, especially by the time we finished. We had cash in the bank. We had investments. We had very little debt that was very manageable.

11:01 Emily: But still, when I opened up that email and I saw that salary offer–and we knew the ballpark of what it was going to be–I started bawling, and I felt this huge sense of relief. And I thought to myself, we don’t have to struggle anymore. And I thought, I didn’t even know that I thought we were struggling. I thought we were succeeding. And we were succeeding definitely by external measures, but still I had that emotion somewhat, that feeling somewhere inside that sort of erupted out of me when I saw that that salary offer. And so, it was a great deal of relief, shock as well, and shock at my own response to it, I guess, and relief seeing that number. So, I think we’ll come back to the actual transition of well, does that salary turn out to be what you think it’s going to be once you actually move out of your grad school mindset and so forth, but that’s the first story I want to tell.

Money Mindset: Overcoming Feelings of Guilt

11:52 Emily: The second one is I find this guilt emotion so interesting. And I guess I can understand where it’s coming from because it’s almost like, how much harder can you possibly work? Like you’re in graduate school and you’re working yourself to the bone for a very low salary or pay or cobbled together funding or whatever it is. And then I can see you going into this job and making about three times as much and thinking, “I just can’t work three times harder.” And, you know, you can’t work three times harder, but “Oh my gosh, I’m not even expected to work three times harder? It’s actually okay to have all this flexibility and I can leave my work at work and go home.” We haven’t said that you actually do that, but you know, that’s the case for some people. What a rollercoaster ride and what a shift. Right? At that point. So, do you want to elaborate on that any further?

12:45 Samantha: Absolutely. You are describing spot-on things. I think it was certainly an adjustment. And it was the realization moving into something in a work environment that was more normal. And that allowed me to leave my work at work and, you know, to be able to have weekends, to be able to spend time with friends and family and settle into it made me realize how toxic and draining–and I use toxic mindfully–that that culture can be that expects incessant production from people who also have families and have, you know, the right to rest and to care for their bodies who are doing intense intellectual work, which is, you know, it is not physical labor. And so it is a certain kind of privilege to do intellectual work, but also to keep it up all the time is draining.

13:42 Samantha: And it is only increasing in academia, the pressure to do more and do more. And for less, especially for people from marginalized groups or minoritized groups, a lot of that labor is put onto them by a structure that just exists to extract as much value with as little pay as possible. And so, it did help me realize how erroneous my own thinking had gotten, because I’d internalized a lot of academia’s self-valuation. As I started to transition out, I started to withdraw from that feeling a little bit. It got to a point where I heard a colleague gleefully tell us that she had worked from 10:00 PM to 2:00 AM last night, as if it was something to be proud of. And that’s when I realized, I don’t want this. Something is terribly wrong if we have gotten here.

14:33 Samantha: And it’s not the only field in which this happens, right? There are other work cultures where this sort of overwork is valorized, but yeah, it was simultaneously realizing that I didn’t want it. I didn’t choose it. And yet it was in my mind still. It still affected the choices I made and the way I thought about my own work. But it was honestly very healing to take a nonacademic job. It allowed me, as I said earlier, to rethink what I’ve been taught by the Academy and from my familial background. And it allowed me to think about what my values actually were.

15:09 Emily: Yeah. I can definitely see how that increase in pay and also the more work that has better boundaries around it and more reasonable expectations can, you finally have a chance to breathe, take some space for yourself. Take some time for reflection. Yeah. When you’re in graduate school and in some kinds of jobs, this training period, it’s just push, push, push, push, push, and you can end up going quite off course and in a weird direction, if you don’t take that time periodically to reassess.

Appreciating and Using Privilege to Help Others

15:37 Emily: Okay. So, you’ve talked about the initial shock of the salary offer and this feeling of guilt that cropped up, but then realizing that your mindset was also changing as you were moving out further away from the graduate school experience. Were there any other emotions that you wanted to bring up along that path?

15:54 Samantha: I think another thing that surprised me was how quickly people started to say things like, “Oh, well, you can afford it now.” And how often that was my fellow graduate students. So, I think it was, you know, this is not a critique, but more of an illustration that this mindset affects us all. So, that was surprising. I didn’t expect that to come or to come so quickly. That would be a big one. And I think, now that I am almost a year through the new job and I’m navigating this transition, I’m thinking a lot more about the ways in which even, as I came out of graduate school, that all the different ways in which I’m privileged and the fact that I have landed on my feet and landed in a space of calm and restoration only motivates me more to want to change things and to use the fact that I am being paid decently well to help others and advocate for others who still are not. So, that’s something that’s been coming up more often is realizing like I am in an interesting position in the university and I have a lot of privilege. How can I use that to improve things moving forward?

How Would You Describe the Scarcity Mindset?

17:06 Emily: Mhm. That’s awesome. So, you’ve brought up some aspects of your mindset that you have started to shed as you’re putting more time between yourself and the end of your degree. And you use the term with me scarcity mindset. I think some of those ideas around scarcity have come up so far. We haven’t used that term yet. How would you describe the scarcity mindset that is developed in academia by many people?

17:30 Samantha: That’s a great question. I understand it, knowing that there are others who actually study it and have a much better understanding, but I understand it as the scarcity mindset is a combination of not making enough. So, not making a living wage. I live in a part of California that is lower cost of living for California, but high cost of living compared to anywhere else. It’s not in the major cities of the U.S. So, realizing that the money you earn through hard work does not go as far as you need it to. And there’s nothing you can do about that except work more. So, there’s that, you’re not being paid enough, but also realizing as grad students do, that you might not be paid continuously. And so, if you make enough money one month where you can pay all your expenses, the scarcity mindset is knowing that you might not be paid for four months out of the summer, which we were not. We don’t get paid from July to November. Hurray. So, it’s that too. It’s knowing that no matter what you do, you may have to weather the summer, a health crisis. You could be one blown tire away from having to take loans. So, that’s how I understand it. And it creeps into everything. It affects health, it affects community function, all sorts of things.

18:51 Emily: Hmm. So, what I have been interested in lately is I’ve been learning about scarcity mindset as well, almost from like an entrepreneurial, like side of things. And then it has caused me to think a little bit more about it in the academic setting. But there’s scarcity mindset, and there’s like actual scarcity that sort of objectively is going on in your life. And graduate students often have both of those things overlapping, but they can also exist independent of each other. You can have a scarcity mindset and not actually be experiencing scarcity. Maybe it’s something that happened in your childhood. Maybe it’s something that was going on during graduate school, but you’ve moved past it. You have a higher salary now, but the mindset can still follow you. Likewise, you can have a very tight financial situation and not have a scarcity mindset around it, even if it is pervasive in the community around you. I think that academia itself tries to impart upon us a scarcity mindset, even if not every member in that environment is actually experiencing scarcity. So, I’m wondering for you, as your income has gone up even though, okay, you’re still living in a high cost of living area. I’m sure there are still financial challenges associated with it, but have you been able to move past or sort of work to heal the scarcity mindset that you developed during your time in academia?

Moving Past the Scarcity Mindset Developed in Academia

20:14 Samantha: I’m starting to, and that’s a wonderful way of expressing it. That it can be both from the way you were raised and an environment that cultivates it, sometimes artificially. We think about how grants work. Grants and the publish or perish culture is the artificial scarcity mindset. From my own experience, I definitely felt it coming up when I transitioned to a nonacademic job, and in surprising ways. The first place I noticed it was with my own health. I suddenly had the means and the health insurance to be able to get new glasses, for example, and deal with a couple of health things that my parents could not afford to deal to treat as a child. And I couldn’t afford to treat in graduate school. And even though I knew on paper, I had the funds, I still felt like it was indulgent, which is ridiculous.

21:09 Samantha: Not that I thought it, but the fact that taking care of your health could be ridiculous ever, but it popped up there. It pops up even still, and as I’m working through this, but it pops up now in the difference between cost and value. So, what something costs versus how much you will get out of it. And for me, the big test was my car. I could not afford a car in graduate school. And so, I needed to buy a car for this new job and for the next phase of my life. And I found myself, you know, I had saved in grad school and, like you and your partner, had done okay, asterisk for graduate students. So, I had some savings that I had earmarked for a car, but I found myself as I researched thinking like, “Well, why don’t I just save as much money on this car as possible, buy the cheapest thing I can find?” And only through the advice of some friends realize that, yes, it might be upfront cheaper, but what about increased maintenance costs? I could buy a jumper, and for many people that’s what you can do. And so you do what you can. But I was on the verge of making a decision where I spent as little as possible, but would incur greater costs down the road. And so thankfully, through some wiser people in my life, I ended up spending all of my budget, but got a 10-year-old car with 44,000 miles on it. And so, it has saved me in gas and insurance and maintenance costs. And that’s not something that was intuitive to me coming out of grad school. I was looking for the lowest bottom line and not thinking about the future.

Pro Tip: Get Comprehensive Car Insurance

22:48 Samantha: And that is, I think, also part of the scarcity mindset is not having the means to be able to plan for the future. If you cannot afford to save, you cannot make longterm financial decisions. It’s as simple as buying what you need in the moment versus buying bulk. And many people are not able to do that. So, it shows up there. It shows up with health, and it showed up when I took my first vacation, again, something I’d saved up for, I split costs with my best friends, had a wonderful time. It was the first vacation I’ve ever been able to take, and it was wonderful. But when I got back, found out someone had stolen my catalytic converter out of my car, and that is a $2,600 repair. So, one of my tips to your listeners will be, if at all possible, get comprehensive car insurance.

23:37 Samantha: Again, something I didn’t do because I thought it was a way to cut costs. And it was at the time. And then not. But when that happened, I didn’t think, “What a terrible thing that someone has committed a crime.” I thought, “How stupid of me. I shouldn’t have gone on vacation. This was a terrible decision. I never should have taken time to take pleasure and enjoy time with friends.” And that’s messed up, too. So, I’m trying to remind myself that that’s what savings are for. That’s what insurance is for. That’s what the fact that the next paycheck is coming is for. You save money precisely to weather things, not that something you weather is a moral stain against you. And if you have to spend money, you’ve saved, you have somehow messed up. It does me no good if I hoard it.

24:31 Samantha: So, that’s been a little bit healing. Is remembering that I am saving, I am managing my money. I have people who will help me, either through advice or through the loan of a car at first, or a tip about a cheaper flight, or something like that. And people who are gentle about money. And also to remember that at least for now there will be another paycheck. And that’s something that is still not intuitive to know that I won’t have to be saving for when June hits. So, it’s a slow process, and it’s been kind of an expensive lesson to learn. So, if that answers your question.

25:12 Emily: Yeah, it definitely does. Your comments are reminding me of a distinction that we tend to draw in the personal finance community between frugal and cheap. And cheap is, it sounds a bit, you know, pejorative, but when you’re in that scarcity mindset and the actual scarcity in your life, you don’t have any other choice, right? There’s no choice to be frugal. There’s only the choice to be cheap, unfortunately. This is a big complaint kind of around frugality actually, is that it does take a little bit of upfront capital to be frugal sometimes with certain like verbal tips or strategies that you might use. Like you just mentioned buying in bulk. That’s one where it takes some upfront capital to be able to spend more over the longer term. But when you’re stuck in this very short-term cycle, you can’t even make those little mini investments in your future of a frugal tip or something like that. So, it’s a position that people are forced into. If you cannot do it in some way, you will eventually sort of snowball. You can eventually start to snowball frugal tips together and overall be spending less money, but like you have to get it started somehow. And that’s really a difficult thing to overcome. Thank you so much for sharing those anecdotes.

Commercial

26:25 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics, or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers, even while social distancing. Now, back to our interview.

Change Financial Attitudes with Positive Self-Talk

27:24 Emily: Something I’ve been learning about, and actually, I’ve had a couple other interviews have been published, one with Lucie Bland, one with Cortnie Baity, kind of around how to change your financial attitudes. And something that I have, again, been learning more from the entrepreneurial community is the use of affirmations, is what they’re called. Which the first time I heard about–the first dozen times I heard about affirmations–I was like, “Whoa, that is a weird, like, I don’t want to get into this,” but really what it is, is it’s just, self-talk. Like, it’s just kind of, if you notice yourself saying, like, you just mentioned a few things, you’ve said yourself, “Oh, I don’t deserve to have a rest or pleasure,” when you notice yourself saying something like that, just having something there to yourself to counter it. “But no, I do deserve periodic rest. I work very hard and I earn enough money that I can invest in my future.” Like whatever it is for you that needs to be there in that self-talk can be really useful in starting to combat this mindset. I’m wondering, do you use that strategy or has it been something else that you’ve been using to work through this mindset?

28:27 Samantha: I mean I will always plug the value of therapy, not necessarily as a specific answer to your question, but more as you know, the chance to have someone else to talk to and to reflect on the ways in which you’ve been trained to think, and to have someone else say, “You don’t have to do this all the time.” So, if at all possible, find affordable affordable therapy. I don’t know that I use affirmations specifically, but I do receive affirmation from my community, from my partner who will say as I’m in tears after having the car parts stolen, like, “This is not your fault.” Or people who say, “It’s okay to have these questions about how do I manage my finances? What is the best form of insurance?” I don’t know that I repeat them to myself, but I’m trying to have more gentleness towards myself and to everyone else around me. And to understand that you don’t know where everyone is coming from. You don’t know what the background might be. And so, you don’t know the ways in which someone’s actions are a production of years of training and experiences.

29:37 Samantha: I’m very much still learning. So, I think that’s probably the answer. I haven’t figured out everything that works. Still seeking advice. A lot of it is experiential and realizing, “Okay, if I do this, what happens? If I try this, what will happen? Will I be okay if I have to weather a large expense?” And then experience does teach you, you will be okay. No one will shun you. Your worth does not diminish as a human being because you take a weekend off. These sorts of things. A lot of it is just learning by doing.

How to Combat Lifestyle Creep

30:10 Emily: Yeah, I’m really glad that you mentioned the supportive people you have around you to try to help you counter the residual scarcity mindset. But you mentioned earlier that you’ve also heard from people, “Oh, you can afford it.” And so something that I try to talk about when I have the opportunity is combating lifestyle inflation or lifestyle creep. When, you know, we come out of the PhD or out of a postdoc and you finally have that three times higher salary or whatever it is, you, maybe yourself, or maybe people around you, start to say, “I can afford this now.” And that’s potentially true, but you know, maybe there are some other reasons, other financial goals you might want to work on. So, what’s been your experience with lifestyle creep with this job transition?

30:55 Samantha: Great question. Absolutely, I have felt it. I mean, no one is buying diamonds and furs here, but certainly the realization that I could buy the nice olive oil and also get work pants when I needed them, was new to me. And so, I certainly experienced a certain amount of pushing the boundaries of my budget. Not necessarily intentionally, but suddenly just realizing, “I can afford this. I can afford these modest things.” For me, I think the danger is that the modest things add up. And so, I have to, you know, be mindful and ask myself if I need it and also pace out my consumption.

31:39 Samantha: I think the other thing that happened was there were a lot of high ticket purchases all at once. So, I moved, I had to purchase a car. I did a lot of health things. And that very much, I suppose you could think of that as lifestyle creep. You could also think of it as catch-up. So, a lot of, you know, health catch-up. Moving to a space where you feel safe and comfortable, moving out of a town that is rapidly outpricing all of its student inhabitants was one of the things that I decided to do. So, definitely there was some lifestyle expansion. Also, to be gentle to myself, I have to think about what is the startup cost of a new light versus, you know, going to the grocery store and buying the fancy stuff that you don’t need or luxury goods. So, thinking about what was important, what I needed. I needed to fix certain things about my health.

Think About Needs vs. Wants

32:42 Samantha: I probably could have gotten away without a car, but it would have made life incredibly difficult and sometimes unsafe. So, thinking about needs versus wants and realizing that it is okay to have expensive needs if you can meet them. That’s also an obligation to make sure that other people can meet their needs, but that it’s still important to temper your wants. So, just because I can afford it, doesn’t necessarily mean I need it in my life. And so, I’m trying to acknowledge the fact that I’m building a new life and catching up from years of not being able to take care of certain things, but also keeping an eye on the expansiveness of my wants and trying to make sure that I’m not spending to create a feeling. So, do I want this because I will use it a lot and it fills a need and might give me joy? Fine.

33:40 Samantha: Am I using this to create a feeling of joy? That’s a different question for me. So, those are sort of the things I’ve discovered so far for combating it. Prioritizing financial goals is, as you say, a lot of the grad school skills that I learned have helped so far, you know, shopping second-hand, being a coupon pro, repurposing or reusing, reflecting on how you spend your money, that has all been useful. But I think in this new phase, I’m also allowing myself to experience joy. And the more I do that, the more I realize actually you don’t need necessarily to spend money to experience joy. If I have the freedom from financial anxiety, I am finding that I am finding joy in things that don’t require me to outlay money. So, that was was unexpected.

34:38 Emily: So, so insightful. Thank you so much for that. Listeners, I want you to go back a couple of minutes and listen to that whole section again, because I think it was just amazing. And there were actually multiple things I wanted to pull out, but I think the couple most important ones were one, I love this distinction between lifestyle creep or lifestyle inflation, but then also lifestyle catch-up, because sort of the whole idea behind lifestyle creep and it being a negative thing is that it’s mindless. Like, “Oh, I got a raise. That means money’s going to disappear. I’m just going to spend it on whatever, and it’s not very intentional.” And this can happen when you are living an okay lifestyle to begin with that you’re comfortable with. But what you’re talking about is when you have been living for an extended period of time, well below what is to you a reasonable lifestyle, like many graduate students are during training. And once you have the means to step out of that, it’s not unintentional at all.

Mindfulness with Long-term Financial Commitments

35:40 Emily: You need to increase your spending in certain areas because you’ve been artificially deflating it prior to that point. So, that’s perfectly fine and no one will fault you for that. Another kind of point I’d like to make, and you talked around this a little bit, I think, is that one of the real dangers with lifestyle inflation, especially something where like you have three extra incomes, some large jump like that, is getting yourself into big long-term commitments, like housing and transportation. Maybe there are some others in there, that you didn’t really realize that you were biting off so much because you were so giddy from seeing that high salary. And those are the really dangerous ones, right? So, that’s the part to be really careful is these fixed expenses. When you inflate those really rapidly, or without a whole lot of planning, but you know, to do what you were saying and just have like some startup costs, okay. They’re sort of one-off things. Even if you have a few of them at once, as long as your budget can absorb them, like that’s not going to hurt you in the longterm. It’s really those fixed expenses, especially the contracts that you’re in, that you need to be careful about.

36:49 Samantha: Something you said about, you know, suddenly the mindless spending, got me thinking it is scary how quickly it happens, too. And I think this has been instructive for me, realizing how it is possible to be, you know, the stories you hear about. Someone making $300,000 a year and saying that they don’t have any disposable income. It’s the lack of mindfulness. It’s the lack of, you know, checking yourself, checking your privilege. But I’ve learned enough in these past nine months to realize those patterns can transfer. If you don’t have contentment or if you don’t have the reflective mindset at 60, $70,000, I understand how you can get to be a rich person who thinks the same way. And not in an empathetic, like “Let’s all pity the rich,” but in a, “Oh, we really need to be checking at every level.”

37:49 Emily: And it’s part of human nature rather than necessarily a character flaw. It’s just kind of present in all of us. It’s something we all have to combat a little bit.

37:59 Samantha: And time as a graduate student doesn’t exempt you from that. Like you have to do the work no matter where you are.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

38:04 Emily: Yeah. I agree. Last question here. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

38:11 Samantha: I think the advice works the same for many people and will scale. Save what you can, always, and that does not have to be a certain amount, right? What you can, can be $20, $10, $5, a quarter. It’s more about prioritizing your future in whatever way you can. And also high yield savings accounts are pretty great. I did not discover them until a few years ago, and it’s wonderful. The rates right now are pretty great. So, save what you can and put it in a place where it will work for you, but you will also be able to access it. Another tip would definitely be, if you can afford it, get comprehensive car insurance. I think it was like $5 extra a month for me. And if I’d had it, I would not have to spend multiple thousands of dollars to fix someone else’s crime.

39:05 Samantha: So, I did not know that going in. I want to share that with your listeners because sharing financial knowledge is how I got to where I was. And there’s a lot I still don’t know. So, I want to pass that on. So, I think the biggest one though, and we’ve been talking around and about this, is to think about income and personal value in the ways in which they are divorced in graduate school, the ways in which if you step into a non-academic career job, they can suddenly become linked. And so, I think my biggest piece of advice would be to make time to ground yourself and to think about what you value and what your values are. So that even, you know, no matter what income bracket you’re in, especially if you jumped tax brackets, that you are always in touch with what matters to you, the non-monetary things that are of value, your worth as a human being, your rights as a human being, all of these things are not tied to the income you make.

40:02 Samantha: And that it’s okay to return to that. You can remind yourself of this. It can be difficult if you’re in a workplace or in an environment or a culture where suddenly you see a lot of conspicuous consumption. If you jump out of graduate school to an industry where that’s the norm, the industry I work in, we will use phrases like, “Oh, that’s only a million dollars,” all the time. And that was a shock. So, I think, keep returning to the fact that your personal value is not connected to your income. It wasn’t in grad school, and that was the problem. And that is a problem that should be fixed, but that also means that it’s not in the world beyond academia as well. Money is something you use to pay your bills, to care for your family, to build a better world, to save for your future. It’s a tool and not a marker of value. And so, just finding ways to return to that and to reflect on what you value, how you express your values through consumption, if that’s something you decide you want to do. How you can use your income and your consumption to build a better world for others. If you have the financial freedom to do that, that’s some advice that I’m starting to learn, and I would like to encourage our listeners to do. I’m sure they’re already doing it.

41:26 Emily: Thank you so much for that Samantha. Thank you so much for this delightful interview. I am so glad to have your voice and your perspective and be able to share it with the listeners.

41:36 Samantha: Well, thank you for having me. It was a pleasure to talk. I wish we could talk more.

Outtro

41:40 Emily: Listeners. Thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Best Practices in Side Hustling During Graduate School

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In this episode, Emily interviews Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok, two PhD students who work on this podcast as virtual assistants. Today’s conversation is all about side hustling! Lourdes and Meryem each give their perspectives on why and how they started side hustling, how they manage their time, and how they handle their self-employment income with respect to taxes and budgeting. Throughout the interview, you’ll get a behind-the-scenes perspective on how this podcast is produced. The end of the interview is a discussion of the unexpected benefits Lourdes and Meryem have experience from working on the podcast.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

side hustle grad school

Teaser

00:00 Meryem: Every once in a while, if I need to make an extra purchase or a gift, I will kind of rationalize with myself, “Okay, I was able to make some extra income this month with the side hustle so it’s okay to spend that extra money.” And essentially that’s not a super cut and dry method, but it sort of helps me at least to rationalize my additional expenses and not get too anxious about finances during grad school, which is really, really nice to have that cushion outside of my usual budget.

Introduction

00:36 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast and higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 18 and today my guests are Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok, who are both PhD students and work with me as virtual assistants on this podcast. Today’s conversation is all things side hustling. Lourdes and Meryem each give their perspectives on why and how they started side hustling, how they manage their time, and how they handle their self employment income with respect to taxes and budgeting. Throughout the interview, you’ll get a behind the scenes perspective on how we produce this podcast. We close the interview discussing the unexpected benefits. Lourdes and Meryem have experienced from working on the podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok.

Will You Please Introduce Yourselves Further?

01:31 Emily: I’m bringing you a little bit of a different interview today. This is the first time on the PF for PhDs podcast. We have had three people on the call at once, that is two guests interviewees, and it’s really special to me because the people I’m interviewing today are my virtual assistants who work on the podcast with me, Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok, and they’re both PhD students. We’re going to get into more about side hustling today, like the side hustle that they do with me and their experience with that, maybe their experiences side hustling with other people. So yeah, we’re talking side hustling today and I have my two guests with me. I’ll have you introduce yourselves, so Lourdes, why don’t you go first?

02:10 Lourdes: Hi everyone. My name Lourdes Bobbio. I’m a fifth year PhD candidate at Penn State University in the Department of Materials Science, and I work on additive manufacturing of metallic materials.

02:23 Emily: Yeah. Lourdes was actually a guest on a previous podcast episode and we will link that from the show notes. We did a budget breakdown with Lourdes, so we talked through her budget there in State College and Meryem, please introduce yourself.

02:35 Meryem: Hi, my name is Meryem. In 2016 I started the MD PhD program at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill — go Heels. After completing the first two years of med school in 2018, I started my PhD in UNC-NC State’s joint Department of Biomedical Engineering. Currently I am working in the Magnus Lab, developing tools to better understand human intestinal STEM cell fate. And I’m happy to say that I’m officially a PhD candidate as of two days ago.

03:05 Emily: Yes. Congratulations! We will record and release this in August 2020, so it’ll still be fresh news by the time this episode comes out. I’m just delighted to have you both on.

Why Side Hustle In Grad School?

03:17 Emily: First question here is why did you decide to start side hustling in graduate school? Why don’t we still go with Lourdes first?

03:25 Lourdes: Financially, I was doing actually pretty okay with my stipend. As Emily mentioned, I was previously on an episode where I discussed my NDSEG fellowship, and so I generally have a somewhat higher stipend than my peers and State College has a generally low cost of living. So financially I was doing, in terms of I had enough money to live on and for extras and to save, but the reason that I got into side hustling was so that I could have money to contribute to a Roth IRA. I think Emily has done an episode on this earlier in the year, but as of this current year 2020, fellowship recipients are now eligible to contribute to a Roth IRA, but previously they were not. I started one before I was being paid on fellowship and I wanted to try to contribute at least a little bit of money monthly to that, so having that side hustle, self employment income helped me to be able to do that and continue to contribute, even though I couldn’t with my general fellowship income.

04:32 Emily: That’s so strategic. I love that. It is the advice that I was giving out for people who had multi-year fellowships, is to consider that self-employment side hustle. Meryem, why’d you decide to start that side hustling.

04:44 Meryem: For me, I guess coming into medical school, I had actually taken a gap year and was able to transfer a lot of those funds into starting an IRA, so for me, it was less of a strategic approach and more just that I’ve really always had a lot of interests in gaining new skills and collaborating with other people outside of my primary career interests. I think specifically, actually, as far as video and podcast editing, I was inspired by my dad who is always the one recording all of our family memories and making home videos. And he actually founded and produced a public access TV show called Turkish American TV. That’s been going on for 15 years, completely as a passion, volunteer project. I remember many times he’d rope me into his projects and show me how to use video and editing software, and I really just felt lucky to have his guidance. I feel like I inherited his eye for detail since that’s helped me be more confident in marketing myself as a freelancer who just really genuinely enjoys editing. I guess for me, just as someone who needs to have hobbies and tasks outside of work, I wanted to try something new and also make a little extra income in line with my career development goals.

06:03 Emily: Maybe we should say what you all actually do for me with the podcast, to give you credit where credit is due. As the listeners know, I conduct the interviews for the podcast, but kind of everything that happens after that, I hand off to you two. So you do all the video and audio editing of the interviews, and you compile the show notes, which are actually full transcripts. It’s more work than it sounds actually. We use an automated tool to generate the first transcript, but then you go through with a careful listen and make it actually readable, which I really appreciate. And you also write the social media posts that we do for each episode, and you schedule things. There’s a few other tasks in there too, but those are the major pieces of work. It’s been an amazing help for me.

How did you find your current and previous side hustles?

06:44 Emily: I know how you two landed this side hustle, which is that I reached out to my mailing list when my last VA decided to leave the position. Thankfully, she gave me a lot of notice. I reached out to my mailing list and said, “Hey, podcast listeners, do you want to work on the show?” And you two both volunteered to do a trial episode and ultimately your work was great, so I hired both of you. But I don’t know if that’s the first side hustle you’ve had in graduate school, or whether you were even particularly looking for that kind of side hustle, or really how it came about kind of from your end, so why don’t you tell us. Lourdes?

07:19 Lourdes: I had done a couple of side hustles through freelancing websites. There was actually one particular one that was captioning and transcription of usually short audio files through this company called Rev. It’s basically just pick and choose these audio files and you get paid. It’s a very low paying job, but it was something that I did just sort of in my spare time. When I heard about the opening on this podcast, I was like, “Hey, this is perfect. This is like what I was doing before, but on sort of like another level and sort of a next step up.” It seemed like a perfect fit for what I like to do in general anyway, just on a higher level.

08:07 Emily: Yeah. Meryem, how about you?

08:09 Meryem: Yeah, that’s so funny, because actually that’s the first time I’m hearing this. For those who don’t know Lourdes and I actually went to undergrad together, so the fact that we serendipitously ended up as virtual assistants for the same podcast and kind of working together was phenomenal to experience and to find out. For me, I also was trying to look into doing these things independently through similar websites, but it was not really a sustainable effort or something that was really worth the rate that they were paying. And I felt like it’s so much more useful to be able to use these skills and also benefit from all of the knowledge that I’m gaining as I’m editing these episodes, which is relevant to us as graduate students trying to better our personal finances. Really it was a no brainer when I saw that email from Emily and reached out and I’m just so glad that it worked out and that we were able to take turns, Lourdes, and still have an activity shared together despite the distance and the years since college.

09:15 Emily: Yeah, that’s why I reached out to my list first, to try to hire for this position. I hoped that there would be people who would actually be interested in the material as well as having the skill set to work on the episode, instead of going with an independent agency or something, which I could have done, maybe if it hadn’t worked out, initially. I wanted to go to people who I sort of had a relationship with, and actually it happens to be the fact that I had corresponded with both of you over the years before that — we mentioned Lourdes had been on the podcast and Meryem has been on my mailing list for a long time, so we had exchanged emails and I think had call or two in that time. It was really helpful that I knew your names at least, when it came time for people to apply for that position. Meryem you have, since we started working together, taken on another podcast editing position, why don’t you talk about how that came about?

10:08 Meryem: Yeah, that’s right. Actually, I owe it to you, Emily, for alerting me to another side hustle opportunity in podcast editing with the AcaDames podcast, which is another awesome podcast focusing on women in academia. Earlier this year, I remember Emily sent an email to us, letting us know that AcaDames was looking for help since their previous student executive producer was graduating soon, and they wanted to have somebody to overlap during that period of transition. I reached out to them about that position and thankfully we were a good fit. Now I just feel really lucky that I get to work with these two amazing podcasts. My work with them partially involves editing, but also involves a little bit more of administrative and social media management work. I’ve just learned so much from both podcasts and I’m excited to be involved. And also again, benefit from all of the career development advice that I’ve been receiving just by working with both of them.

11:09 Emily: Yeah. I think it’s kind of interesting that for these positions, this podcast virtual assisting position and the AcaDames one, it sounds like we’re looking for someone who’s going to be doing a multiplicity of different things and you come in with maybe some subset of the skills, like Lourdes, you had the transcription type experience, but then we’re asking you to learn a bunch of other stuff which expands your skillset overall, even if you’re not going to be career podcast editors. I assume you’re going to do something with your PhDs, but it’s nice to have that kind of side work, I think.

Balancing Side Hustles, Grad School, and Personal Life

11:36 Emily: Between the side hustle, your graduate work, everything else that’s going on in your life. I know you two are both in relationships — Meryem, you recently got married. Lourdes, you’re engaged. You have a lot of stuff going on in your lives. And so how do you fit in this side work that you’re doing, along with everything else? Lourdes?

11:55 Lourdes: I guess for me, what attracted me to the side hustle specifically was that it’s something that I can work on from home. I don’t have to go anywhere to do anything, and I can kind of fit it into my schedule. It’s very flexible. Emily is super nice, in that she gets us a lot of heads up time between when we get audio files and when they’re going to be released. So there’s a lot of flexibility in the position, which is definitely something that I was initially looking for in side hustles, as well, when I was doing the more freelance, low paying transcription job, it’s something I could do just in my own time, so that’s been helpful in terms of being able to work it into my schedule, work my schedule around it.

12:38 Lourdes: Also, like Emily mentioned, I’m engaged, but for the last year I’ve also been long distance, and so I’ve had a little bit more free time. It’s also been really great during this work from home time, to have something else to do. Now that you’re pretty much primarily at home, we’ve all been at home, things can get a little bit stale, but having a lot of different activities to do has been really helpful in managing my own mental health. I don’t feel like I’m only at home to do work and I get to sort of have some variety in my day, so that’s been nice.

13:22 Emily: How about you Meryem? How do you do the time management aspect?

13:25 Meryem: Yeah, I want to echo everything that Lourdes said. I think it’s really nice, even without a pandemic, but especially during a pandemic, to just have something else to turn to when you need a break from grad school or just want to use a different skill set for a bit, or just kind of escape from the world. And right now, especially because of COVID, I tend to work a later shift in lab, and my understanding is Lourdes does as well, so the rest of our work is pretty much done remotely, which makes it easier, but also I have to be a little bit more diligent about priority setting and setting boundaries, because it is so easy to kind of just switch between projects both between my main job as a grad student and then my side hustles and leaving room for my personal life.

14:07 Meryem: Usually I’ll try to do this by reserving chunks of time to work on the podcast editing, either in the mornings or late in the evenings after my shift and maybe the weekends to kind of catch up, which is very useful for particularly busy weeks. I think just like setting deadlines and trying to stay organized to prioritize all the things that are going on is helpful. I will say that I recognize that it’s probably easier for me to manage everything that I have to do given that I don’t have too many responsibilities outside of my work and extracurriculars right now. I don’t have any human babies, but I do have a fur baby named Sabine, but she’s pretty self sufficient. I think overall it is pretty much managing expectations with myself and now with my husband, but overall I think, much like Lourdes said, you get into a workflow and we do have a lot more time at home so that does help a lot.

15:06 Emily: I’m just thinking how I would answer if I asked this question of myself, of how do I manage my time? Because I do have two human babies and no childcare in a pandemic and it is definitely more challenging now than it was a few months back to be handling my schedule. But I think what Lourdes brought up initially, the fact that in our schedule we have basically a two week cycle from when I get the raw interview to you two and then we have a two week process before publication, and Ithink that really helps. I know a lot of side hustle jobs are really quick turnaround, like super short deadlines, and it’s not even really so much on your end, like I’m giving you guys a lot of time. I need a lot of time to do my part of the process as well, because I can’t necessarily jump on a response right away, because it’s just a busy long day every day right now.

Commercial

16:00 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

Budgeting Side Hustle Income

16:46 Emily: Okay, so personal financial show — let’s talk about the money that’s associated with the side hustle income. What are you doing with the money from your income? Does it have a particular job to do in your budget or how are you handling it generally? Lourdes, why don’t you go first?

17:01 Lourdes: In general, I put most of my side hustle income into savings, whether that be more long-term savings or shorter term savings, kind of depends. If I have an upcoming trip, it might go a little bit towards that. In general, how I work my budget is that, I pay myself first, in that I put money aside for savings first, and then any money leftover is my money that I get to spend for the month.

17:31 Lourdes: One of the tips I learned from the first episodes I edited was a side hustle episode, I think it was Allie Judge, and she mentioned how she holds off on paying herself her side hustle income until the month after she’s earned it. So sort of working on a delayed schedule, in terms of using the money that she’s earned. After I heard that, I’m like, that’s a great idea, so ever since then, I’ve been doing the same thing, where I count basically any money I earn in August goes towards my September monthly budget. That helps me in terms of planning and not using the money before I’ve actually earned it. That’s how I mainly handle it in terms of budgeting.

18:22 Emily: Yeah. Thank you. Meryem, how does it work in your budget?

18:26 Meryem: I’ll be totally transparent in that I don’t necessarily have a specific allocation for my side hustle income, because for me it was primarily a chance to essentially have a hobby and use a different skillset. But I kind of do try to visualize it in a way that permits me to have those extra side expenses during the course of the month that you might not otherwise be able to do. For me, it’s kind of a mental exercise, and I do have the money go straight into a savings account that I don’t really touch, but every once in a while, if I need to kind of make an extra purchase or a gift, I will kind of, I guess, rationalize with myself like, okay, I was able to make some extra income this month with the side hustle, so it’s okay to spend that extra money and think of my extra purchases outside of my needs in terms of how much of my work and effort that is worth. And essentially that’s not a super cut and dry method, but it helps me at least to rationalize my additional expenses and not get too anxious about finances during grad school, which is really, really nice to have that cushion outside of my usual budget.

19:41 Emily: Yeah. That trick, that mental framework of translating the cost of a purchase into your time, or maybe number of episodes, or however you want to structure it, is a really powerful one, a really common one for people sort of were advanced in their personal finance skills to think about really carefully, like whether they want to make a purchase and how they want to spend and so forth to translate into time. That’s a really good tip.

20:07 Emily: I’m particularly thinking about this question of how to handle your irregular income with respect to your budget because, so in August 2020, I launched a community PFforPhDs.com/community, if you want to find out more about that, but every month I’m creating new content for it. Right now I’m working on the September content, which is on how do you handle your irregular income with respect to your budget?

20:28 Emily: Lourdes, the tip that you gave is basically the first one that I’ve already put into this, which is count up your income from one month and put it towards the next month budget, that you got from Allie. It’s absolutely perfect, because you never know when something could go wrong with your side-hustle income. Like if one of you became ill, for example, maybe you need to skip an episode. That’s not a problem for us, but it would be a problem for your budget if you’d already spent the money that you expected to come in. That’s number one, baseline tip for handling side hustle income is give it a delay. Meryem, you’re doing a similar thing by putting it directly into savings, and then later on thinking about, well, how do I want to spend it, or do I want to keep it here? Different articulation, but kind of the same principle there. I’m really glad to hear that.

Side Hustle Income and Taxes

21:13 Emily: Now we come to one of my favorite subjects within personal finance, which is taxes. So you two are both self-employed, you are contractors for me, and Meryem, now you have this other contractor, essentially you’re like a real true contractor working for multiple people with the same skillset. Self employment taxes are kind of a whole other ball of wax. You’ve been doing this for a year, do you have any systems that you’ve put in place or just what are you doing with it, with respect to your taxes? Lourdes?

21:40 Lourdes: For me, it’s a little bit of two different things. I generally set aside about 30% of my self employment income for taxes. That’s taking into account the about 15% self employment tax and then income tax being around 12%. But also, I am on a fellowship that requires me to pay estimated taxes quarterly, and so at the beginning of every year, I basically estimate how much — well, I know how much I’m going to earn from my fellowship, and then I basically estimated how much I anticipate earning from doing this virtual assistant for the podcast. Basically, I have ahead of time, I know how much I have to set aside each month for both my fellowship income and this side hustle income. I immediately put that into savings and I just don’t touch that money. It’s not even money that I think about. And then I tend to over save just a little bit in terms of taxes, just because I’d rather have a cushion. Last year, I think I was off by like $150 just because of other things. I also have some investments that will change throughout the year and change my tax situation, but I do tend to oversave just so I have that little extra cushion and I don’t have to take it out of other pockets of my savings. Then if I have extra money left over, I kind of use it as my own personal tax refund. So the government isn’t giving me any, but I have some extra money left over in my tax pot. I use that and just reallocate it usually to different savings categories.

23:23 Emily: Yeah. I handle my income from my business exactly the same way, so it sounds like you’re just incorporating the self employment tax issue into your existing structure for paying quarterly estimated tax. Meryem, I want to give you a chance to answer that one as well, because I know this is shifting for you right now,

23:39 Meryem: Actually I’m absorbing all of Lourdes’ tips because for me, I just, in the month also started receiving fellowship non-W-2 income. Prior to that, I wasn’t really thinking about estimated quarterly taxes as much because I didn’t have to deal with all of that. But now moving forward for tax year 2020 into next year, I will have to kind of be thinking about that. Even though the actual amount of taxes that I’ll from the side hustle income will be less than the amount that is necessary to be able to pay estimated quarterly taxes — so my original strategy was just to collect all of the receipts that I’ll receive from PayPal and then make sure that I back calculate the amount that I have to pay for the self employment tax and pay that come tax season. That original plan is fine if you know that you’re not going to owe the amount that you would need to, to not have to pay fees for not paying estimated quarterly taxes, but I like the strategy of kind of building it in so that by the time tax season does roll around, you’ve already paid everything.

24:45 Meryem: I actually think that I’m going to adopt that policy rather than shifting it and waiting until tax season. And as for my other side hustle with AcaDames, their structure is also changing since they’re recently going through the process of incorporating and becoming an LLC. Previously, and currently during the transition, I’m being paid through W2 income because it’s very easy to me to be able to do that as a UNC student and the cohost, or at least one of the coasts now is based at UNC, so it was really easy to deal with that through payroll and not have to worry about freelancing or independent contracting. But I imagine that that will also shift within the next year as they’re making this transition into becoming an LLC. So having all of these strategies in place now will probably be really useful moving forward.

25:38 Emily: Yeah, that’s good for me to know. Interesting. I should mention also, I just brought up the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, but for the last several years, I’ve had a workshop available for individuals on quarterly estimated tax and helping them fill out their estimated tax worksheet and form 1040. That workshop is now coming under the umbrella of the community. So anyone who’s wondering about how do I file quarterly estimated tax on my fellowship, that’s where to go for that particular workshop PFforPhSs.com/community. And I just told you, I’m thinking about in September, the training that I’m going to release on handling your irregular income with respect to your budget. Later on this fall, I’m planning on doing another full workshop on the self-employment side hustle that is so common for graduate students and PhDs, and how to handle that for your taxes, so a whole other tax workshop just on this topic of self employment taxes. That’ll be available if anyone needs help with that sort of thing. I’m really excited about creating because I’ve been doing my own taxes as a self employed person for a number of years, so I have a basic familiarity with it and I’m excited to do a bit more research to figure out how it works for other kinds of businesses as well. That’s where to find out more info there.

Unexpected Benefits from Side Hustling

26:54 Emily: As a second to last question here, have there been any benefits to doing a side hustle that you didn’t anticipate when you first took on the position? Lourdes?

27:05 Lourdes: Specifically for this podcast, Emily interviews a wide range of guests and a lot of them also have social media that they promote. I’ve been able to connect with some of the different guests on social media, just as a result of sometimes promoting the episode. They’ll see that I promote it, and then we connect, we end up talking, following each other on Twitter. That’s been like something I didn’t really expect to happen, but it’s been really cool because q lot of them are fellow grad students, and then just getting into that academic sphere of Twitter has been really interesting just to see all these different graduate experiences from people all over the country and all over the world. That’s been one of the most unanticipated benefit from this particular side hustle.

27:57 Lourdes: And then also, as has been brought up multiple times, I think Meryem brought this up, just learning a different skillset that’s something very different from what I do in my normal day to day graduate work. And I, in particular, am starting to figure out what I want to do after grad school. I’m a fifth year student going into my sixth year, so I’ve been leaning towards maybe some more like alt-academic jobs, and being able to have this completely different skill set is definitely something that I think adds to my resume and adds to potential job options and sort of also gives me ideas of what other type of work is out there. Along with what I was mentioning before Emily does have so many different types of guests on the podcast, just seeing what opportunities are available to graduate students after they’ve defended and after they graduated, has been really interesting and something that I hadn’t even considered or even thought of prior to really getting to know some of these guests through the podcast.

29:04 Emily: Yeah. That’s really great for me to hear. I know that this too was an unexpected benefit for me of doing the podcast is I didn’t expect it to be such good networking. I knew some things that would happen from it, but not the networking aspect, so I’m really glad that you’ve been able to tap into that as well. So Meryem, how about you?

29:24 Meryem: Yeah, I agree completely with the networking component as this amazing side benefit of being involved with editing the podcast. And I think for me also, I just find it inspiring how relevant the episodes have been in my own personal journey as a student, often in real time. In fact, I’ll never forget that the very first trial episode that I edited was with Dr. Katie Wedemeyer-Strombel about her decision to change labs and how to prepare for the unexpected in grad school. And it just so happened that that exact same week that I was editing that episode, my former PhD advisor surprised that our lab with an announcement that she would be leaving UNC and moving across the country, and all of this was happening while I was trying to plan a wedding with my fiance, and now husband, who had just moved down to Chapel Hill to start a new job, to be with me after we’d been long distance for so many years. And anyways, it ended up working out and I was able to switch into an amazing collaborating lab and stay at UNC, but unbeknownst to Katie, her advice at that time was so timely for me and helpful for me as I was going through that transition. So I always rave about the podcast to pretty much every grad student I come across and I try to send along helpful episodes and resources to them if it sort of just happens to come across in conversation. It’s just amazing to me how many times that, that has just happened, where I’m editing an episode and realizing, wait, I really need to pay attention. This is really relevant to my life right now.

31:00 Emily: That’s really good to hear. Of course you told me at the time that that episode was striking you in that way and I’m so glad that I could help. I think that, as Lourdes, as I was saying earlier, I’ve been doing this podcast for about two years now and I have quite a few interviews under my belt and it’s not always the same type of person, as you were saying. It’s a lot of different kinds of personal finance stories coming from a lot of different sorts of people who have been in academia for a time at least. There is a good trove of episodes there, that you might find something useful to your current situation, if you do a little diving into the archives.

Best Financial Advice for Early Career PhDs

31:34 Emily: Last question here, which, you know, I ask of pretty much all the guests who come on the podcast. I’ll give you a chance to give your answers as well. What is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And we’ll go to Lourdes first again.

31:48 Lourdes: For me, I think one of the best things for me is having a yearly budget. At the beginning of the year, and I’ve been doing this for quite a few years now, I lay out my plan for the year financially on a spreadsheet, and it really helps to be able to see a longer term plan for my money for the year. I think, especially with self employment income, side hustling, it kind of gives you an idea of…Maybe I have a trip planned later in the year, or I have some big event that I’m going to need to save up money for, and being able to more strategically allocate your money on a larger scale rather than just month to month. I think that’s been one of like a strategy that I’ve been employing for a couple of years now, and it’s just been super helpful for me, and it’s something that I will see myself doing like far into the future

32:44 Emily: That is, I think, typically a good piece of advice, but I want to know how it’s going in 2020.

32:50 Lourdes: It’s been interesting to say the least. There have been a lot of…I had some trips planned that have gotten canceled, so I have this extra money, but also different expenses that I didn’t anticipate come up. And it’s been a little bit of am eye-opener in terms of plans change as the year goes on, but I think sort of having that framework to begin with helps me realize that even if…I go back to this budget every month, it’s the same spreadsheet I use for my monthly budgeting, so it changes and updates and it’s a very fluid document, but just having that outline there to begin with has also been something that provides some structure, especially when the year got so different than what everyone anticipated.

33:43 Emily: Yeah, I also use the year as the sort of standard timeframe when I talk about irregular expenses, so expenses that come up non monthly, and you and I talked about this in our interview from a year or so ago. I think it’s a great strategy to think about what budgetarily is coming up for you — trips, as you mentioned earlier, or maybe some other kinds of irregular expenses, so you can anticipate them over the course of about a year. So yeah, I like that time frame as well. Meryem, how about you? What’s your best advice?

34:12 Meryem: Yeah, so my best advice is probably to be honest with yourself and keep an open mind about your personal finances. A wise friend once told me that disappointment happens when our expectations don’t match up with our reality, which was really helpful for me to hear at the time, as an optimist, because I used to feel a lot of guilt or disappointment if I couldn’t maintain an unrealistic budget, or if I couldn’t resist making an impulse purchase on something that maybe wasn’t necessary, but made me or someone else really happy. But I also think it’s really important for our mental and physical wellbeing to work towards a healthy relationship with money, which I know can be particularly challenging on a grad student’s stipend. So with that in mind still, I think as best as you can try to be honest with yourself and set realistic goals for yourself, not based on anybody else’s priorities or spending habits, but whatever matches your needs. That being said, if something really isn’t working for you, that’s probably a good time to have an open mind and try to adapt, effective strategies from others. I guess I would say it’s okay to experiment and even take calculated risks, while figuring out what works best for you, but being honest yourself and keeping an open mind is probably my best financial advice and general life advice as well.

35:44 Emily: I love that as well. I often think about the mismatch between expectations and reality, and how that provokes us, so I try to keep my expectations low, basically. I really love that advice and I think that’s unique. I don’t think we’ve heard that on the podcast before, but I think it’s perfect. And something that graduate students can sometimes be discouraged around their finances because they are working with such a low income, it’s for such a long period of time, and I talk a lot about investing and saving stuff and that’s just out of reach for a lot of graduate students, but they can implement your advice, Meryem. They can like learn to just figure out what’s going to work for them in managing their own finances right now and carry that skill set and that habit, whatever it is that they determined as the right system or whatever, forward into their career and post-PhD income, and hopefully have a lot of financial success at that time, having been honest with themselves and really using the time in graduate school to get to know what their preferences are with respect to managing their finances. That’s good advice for anybody, anytime. You can always implement it.

36:46 Emily: I’m so glad to have had you two on the podcast and thank you so much for volunteering to do this. Thanks for coming on.

36:53 Lourdes: Thank you, Emily.

36:54 Meryem: Thanks Emily.

Outtro

36:56 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How a Freelancing Career Can Take You from Academia to Affluence

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In this episode, Emily interviews Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. Courtney became a successful freelance writer after leaving her PhD program in anthropology and moving to one of her field sites. She now teaches other academics how to launch freelancing careers through her course, Endless Freelance Income. In this interview, Courtney gives us her #1 piece of advice for new freelancers, which all academics need to take to heart! She also outlines the simple steps it takes to get your freelance career off the ground. Courtney’s location-independent business has enabled her to earn a very nice income on very part-time work, which will be attractive to academics looking to freelance for a side or main income.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

academic freelancer

Teaser

00:00 Courtney: I actually do not work full time. I work maybe 15 or 20 hours a week. But I actually still earn a full-time income because I get paid well.

Introduction

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 17, and today my guest is Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. Courtney became a successful freelance writer after leaving her PhD program in anthropology and moving to one of her field sites, but it wasn’t all smooth sailing. She now teaches other academics how to launch freelance careers through her course, Endless Freelance Income. In this interview, Courtney gives us her best advice for new freelancers, which all academics need to take to heart. She also outlines the simple steps it takes to get your freelance career off the ground. Courtney’s location-independent business has enabled her to earn a very nice income on a very part-time schedule, which I know is attractive to academics looking to freelance for a side income or main income. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:17 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. And I just want to tell you, in one second, how Courtney and I first met online, which is that I saw a post that she wrote a few months back on Jobs on Toast, and I saw her business name, Academia to Affluence, and I was like, this is going to be a good fit. I need to talk with Courtney. So, Courtney, will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself and why your business name is what it is and what you’re up to?

01:47 Courtney: Okay. Yes. So sure. My name is Courtney Danyel. I am an anthropologist by training, but I actually wear quite a few different hats. I’m a freelance business writer also. I’ve been doing that for the past seven years. And as an anthropologist, I’ve worked in Africa in the Central African Republic and Ethiopia. And I actually currently live in one of my field sites, which is Ethiopia. I’ve lived here since I started freelancing seven years ago. And another thing that I started doing late last year was I started mentoring other academics and other people with an academic background to help them transition into freelancing and actually have created an online course for that purpose.

Top Advice for an Academic to Start Freelancing

02:30 Emily: Yeah. So the course name is Endless Freelance Income. I’m actually affiliate for Courtney’s course. I had an opportunity to check it out, you know, before this interview, I think it’s fabulous. And if you want to find out more about that on my end, you can go to pfforphds.com/freelance and find out more about Courtney’s course. And I actually have a couple of bonuses for people in my audience who want to sign up for her course. So, first, you know, right up front, we’re going to get some insights from this course. And then we’ll learn a little bit more about Courtney’s background and her personal story that got her to this point. So, Courtney, your absolute top advice for an academic looking to start freelancing, what is it?

03:10 Courtney: My number one piece of advice for academics who want to start freelancing is to command high pay from day one. That’s because that’s a major mistake that I made when I first started freelancing. I had finished my master’s and I had done part of my PhD and I ended up dropping out of my PhD and decided to switch to freelancing. And as far as I was concerned, I thought I was starting from zero because I was doing freelance writing and I’m writing about topics that aren’t related to my academic discipline. And so, “I don’t know what I’m doing.” And that’s basically what I thought about myself. And so for that reason, I didn’t think that I deserved very high pay. And then I took a lot of jobs that didn’t pay very well at all.

03:57 Courtney: Actually, for the first year and a half or so that I freelanced I was not paid well at all. And then one day I was doing some research for an article that I was writing. I did a lot of ghostwriting back then, which is you write content for other people and it’s published under their name. And I was doing some research for an article that I was ghostwriting for a client. And I Googled something and I clicked on an article that was on forbes.com and I looked at it and it looked familiar. And then I realized that it was written by me. And after I realized that, I started doing some more Googling and I found that my content, stuff that I had written for my clients, had been published on Forbes, Vice, Business Insider, entrepreneur.com and like all these different top business publications. So, that’s what made me realize that, wow, I guess I am a really good writer in other niches besides just anthropology. And I do deserve to be paid well for the work that I do. And after that, I raised my rates, tripled them really, and basically never looked back.

05:05 Emily: I think that this advice is, one, good advice just for everybody, but two, something that academics or post-academics really need to hear, because we are kind of conditioned during graduate school to undervalue ourselves. And it takes really a lot of mental work–and for you a year and a half of actually working in your new field–to undo that conditioning, that mindset that’s been instilled in us. So, I think that it’s something that this audience really, really needs to hear. And I have found as I’ve been involved in academic entrepreneurship spaces, this is one of the top pieces of advice that we pass to one another, which is just raise your rates, raise your rates, raise your rates. I mean, we’re so conditioned. Yeah. We’re so conditioned not only to undervalue our time, undervalue our work, but also think that service is something that you have to do for your job, which I guess in academia, yes, you do have to, but outside of that, no, you should be paid for the value that you bring.

Courtney’s Course Covers Base Pay in Different Freelance Fields

06:09 Emily: So, anyway, it’s a wonderful, wonderful piece of advice. So, actually one thing I wanted to mention is, something I liked in your course is that you speak, of course your experience is in writing, but in the course, you cover a lot more than that, right? Freelancing is a lot more than just freelance writing. And so you talk about base pay rates that you can kind of expect in different fields. Right? I thought that was really that you just got the research jump-started a little bit for the people in the course.

06:40 Courtney: Yeah. You know, for me, I’m basically almost a hundred percent at this point, just a writer, but I actually have a lot of experience freelancing in other areas also, including doing editing and data science and different things. Because you can dip your nib in a lot of different freelance niches. And I also wanted to make the course really open to people who have different skill sets from what I have. Not everybody’s an anthropologist. They have different things, different skills that they bring from academia that they can earn good money from in freelancing also. And so, the course actually introduces several different popular niches, including writing and editing, translation, data science, consulting, sales, and marketing. So, you can kind of discover which one is the best fit for your current skills.

07:30 Emily: Yeah. I mean one of the fields you just mentioned, consulting, is always one that’s very attractive to me when I find other PhDs or graduate students who are consulting. One, because it’s a very broad in flexible kind of terms. So, a lot of people can be consultants in different ways, but also because it tends to command a nice high pay rate if you’re consulting in an area of expertise. I mean, you mentioned earlier that when you went into freelance writing, you were kind of moving away from anthropology. You were writing more about business. But you know, many other people who might be listening to this, they want to double down in their field of expertise. Right? And that’s how they can command those really high pay rates that you mentioned earlier.

08:07 Courtney: Absolutely.

Get Noticed as a Freelancer

08:07 Emily: Okay. So, let’s say you’ve convinced people, people are in your course, they’re going to go down this freelance route, whether it’s writing, consulting, some other field. What’s the best way for them to get started kind of hanging their shingle and letting people know I’m a freelancer now, you can hire me?

08:27 Courtney: Yeah. So, I think the first and most important thing is to build a website. Which, surprisingly to me, I know a lot of people in academia who were like, “Wow, you have your own website. That’s so cool. I wish I could do that.” And I’m like, “Well, you can. You can set up a website in one day. It’s not very difficult.” Yeah. So, building a website is the first and most important thing you can do to make yourself look like a professional freelancer. And that is another thing I discuss in my course. I take you through step by step, how to buy your domain hosting and set everything up, and what the important information you should put on your freelance website to make yourself look like a professional. So, that’s the first step.

09:02 Courtney: And then the next thing that you should do is use networking and cold pitching to get clients. Because there are a lot of freelance websites out there that you can get on where you can apply for jobs and stuff. And I’m not kicking that. I think that’s great also. And I do recommend that you do that, but you won’t get really high-paying clients from those kinds of gigs. You want to first start with networking. And even if you don’t have anybody, you can’t get any clients through your personal network. That’s fine. You can do it through cold pitching. And for me personally, over the years, the clients that I’ve had that have earned me hundreds of thousands of dollars are always the ones that I got through cold pitching. So, that’s what I recommend.

09:43 Emily: Yeah. You know, I actually went through a similar process. I don’t, I guess, identify as a freelancer, I identify as a business owner. But I went through a similar process when I started my business, which is how do I let people know that I’m available for speaking engagements and the other work that I was doing? And so I went through several years as I was building my network where I was cold emailing people. So, I know I don’t really love to be on the receiving end of most cold emails. And so I don’t love to send them either, but honestly, that was the necessary step in the overall process. So, I did a few years of a lot of cold emailing, built up my network, got some responses from that. And now I have basically stopped that. I kind of only do warm-emailing or cultivating my existing network at this point. So, I like that I’ve moved past that, but I feel like it was a really, really necessary start to the whole thing. My business would not have gotten off the ground if I hadn’t just been reaching out to people and trying to start establishing that network. So, it’s not necessarily pleasant, but it is necessary.

10:46 Courtney: It is necessary. And I always found it intimidating in the beginning, especially because you can send 50 emails and not get a response on a single one of them. That’s just the reality of cold pitching. But once you get that one gig and then it earns you a bunch of money, and then it’s like, “Oh, totally worth it.” And you feel motivated to do it more. And so, it can be intimidating. But that’s another thing that for the people who sign up for my course is that they have email support from me. And so, I will help them out with any questions they have. So, if they want to start cold emailing, but they’re not really sure where to start or what to say, they can ask me about that and I’ll give guidance based on the experience that I’ve had over the years.

How Freelancing Enhanced Courtney’s Life

11:28 Emily: That’s actually really nice. Because I know one of the sort of major challenges when you’re starting a business or starting a side income, like freelancing could be at first, is not really having colleagues who you can talk with about the work that you’re doing. And so, that’s just a really great sort of addition, in addition to the excellent content in your course, is also to be able to have interactions with you to get that support, again, as you’re building your network of your peers who are also freelancing or doing other kinds of work like that. So, I find that really valuable. I’ve been part of a couple of communities and I love just, you know, some people process things by talking to other people and they want some outside input, and you’re providing that. So, that’s super valuable. Now that we’ve gotten those excellent nuggets of advice from you, let’s talk a little bit about you and your story. I know you gave a quick overview at the start of the interview as to how you got into this, but why don’t you dive into a little bit more detail about what freelancing has done for you?

12:30 Courtney: Yeah, so, I flew through my bachelor’s degree and flew through my master’s holding my breath. I did that all really young and then I was starting my PhD. By the time I started my PhD, I was completely burnt out. It was just, I don’t need to explain how difficult academia is to anybody who’s listening to this podcast, but yeah, it was just too much for me and I needed a break. And the thing that I always loved about anthropology, the one thing that I love the most about it was being able to do field work. But field work was something that I was only ever able to do, if I was lucky, one or two months out of the year. And the rest of the year was spent in a windowless office doing research and data entry and stuff like that.

13:17 Courtney: And so, I wanted to just have the field work experience without the office experience. I just wanted to do something different. And so I was like, “Okay, I’m going to move to my field site. I love it there. I think it’s great. And I want to go live there. How can I do that? I don’t know.” And so, I actually ended up talking to my mom about it, who she actually works online. And she’s like, “Well, why don’t you start freelance writing? You don’t need to earn a lot of money in order to earn a living, especially if you’re in Africa. So, just give it a go.” And so, that’s what I did. I dropped out of my PhD program. I sold my car, used that to buy a plane ticket, and I left and I started freelancing here in Ethiopia and I’ve actually been here ever since.

13:59 Courtney: So, that has enhanced my life a lot because I get 12 months of sunshine, which is really important to me. And I love the environment and I love the culture and learning languages. And so that location-independence was really, really valuable to me for my mental health and just my personal happiness. And then the other thing that is always important is money. So, I earn very, very good money as a freelancer. I didn’t the first year and a half, as I mentioned before, but once I figured out that I was worth it, I started demanding it and asking for it. And I got it. And I continued to get it every time I raised my rates. People say, yes, somebody says yes. You know? And so, that’s really important, especially compared to academia, unfortunately. After the first two years of freelancing, I started earning more money than my former PhD advisor earns. And they’re a tenured professor. So, that’s something.

Location Independence and High Pay Rates

14:58 Emily: Yeah. I want to explore each of those points a little bit more because they’re both super attractive. The first one, the location-independence, you explained how that played out in your life. It enables you to move to the place that you want to live at one of your field sites and have sort of your whole life feel a little bit more like what you enjoyed the most about your academic experience. And of course, if someone else wants to do that and wants to make freelancing the way they make it happen, that’s awesome. I can think of some other benefits, which is, as you know, academic careers and PhD careers, you don’t have a lot of control over where you live, especially if you’re in academia. But even if you’re just a highly specialized professional, there are certain industries that are concentrated in certain cities, and so forth.

15:44 Emily: So, there may be reasons related to your PhD why you want to stay in a certain place, and this freelancing can follow you wherever you go. Side note, I as a, what’s called a trailing spouse–so we live where we live because my husband’s job is here and we anticipate moving because my husband may be changing jobs from time to time and he’s highly specialized–I get to take my business wherever I go. So, I don’t have to start over in a new job every time I might need to move. So, that’s a real, real benefit that I see that location-independence. And then of course on the money side, because this is a personal finance podcast. So, commanding the high pay rates, getting paid very well for your time.

16:26 Emily: Not just for people like you who are doing this full time, but as a side hustle. If that’s the way this starts, or that’s the way you want to keep this as you move forward in your freelancing career, as well as your academic or PhD-type career. It’s really nice when you can make a good amount of money for not that much time invested. As a PhD student, for example, you might be able to work, I don’t know, two hours a week, five hours a week, some pretty small number, but still get a really, really nice amount of money out of that small, small side hustle. And when you compare that, when you’re thinking about hourly rates to the other kinds of work that some PhDs do, or some people do when they’re still in graduate school or PhD training, it’s really nice, right?

17:10 Emily: To not have to work so many hours and also to have maybe a more like stimulating type of work, intellectually that is, yet something that is different probably from what you’re doing as your main day to day job, if this is still a side hustle. I think that’s really attractive in terms of having balance in your life. It’s awesome that you’ve been able to command these high pay rates and put together this full-time career, making a very nice income from Africa, from where you wanted to live. And I definitely want others to consider following your tracks.

17:44 Courtney: You were saying that this is like a full-time job for me, which it kind of is. But a lot of other people who listen to your podcast are people who are in academia to stay and they would like to have some additional stream of income to add on top of that. So, one point that I would like to make is that I actually do not work full-time. I work maybe 15 or 20 hours a week. But I actually still earn a full-time income because I get paid well. And this is something that I choose for my personal life because I have three foster kids and I homeschool them. And between that, and being a mom and, keeping my yard clean, I work 15, 20 hours a week on freelancing and that’s about it. And so you could do this as a part-time gig and still earn a lot of money. It doesn’t have to become like your full career. You don’t need to invest a hundred percent of your time in it. I don’t even invest a hundred percent of my time and I don’t even have another source of income. So, that’s something.

18:41 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for adding that. That’s awesome that you’re earning this like great, full-time income from part-time work. I actually also work part-time as well. I work about 25 hours a week and I’m quite happy with that balance actually. So, I really like that you added that point because the whole working 40 hours a week thing is so job-centric. That’s what our culture has decided–well, really not just 40, much more than 40 hours a week–is like the proper amount of time to be working. And once you start your own business, once you strike out on your own, all the rules are out the window, right? You can define what you want your work life to look like completely. And that goes both location and time and amount of money as we talked about earlier. So, I’m so glad that you added that. Thank you.

Endless Freelance Income: What to Expect

19:28 Emily: Let’s say someone is super excited about what we’ve been talking about. They want to start down their freelancing career in whatever field that might be in, and they want to sign up for your course, which again, they can do through pfforphds.com/freelance. And you can get the couple of bonuses that I created there. So, what can someone expect to find when they start your course?

19:49 Courtney: Okay. Well, first I guess I’ll explain who the course is for specifically. After I started freelancing, even in the first year or two I started freelancing, I got emails from people that I know. From people in my former cohort, professors that I know, people in grad school who heard, “Hey, I heard that you left academia and started freelancing. And I’d like to do something similar. Can you give me some advice?” And so, I’ve been giving advice to people for years. I get emails several, 10 or 15 times a year, I get an email from somebody, or I get a referral from somebody who’s in academia and they want to make the switch, or they want to add on to an additional stream of income through freelancing. And so, after years of basically kind of helping people just as like a side project, I decided to create a course to basically do what I was already doing, but do it in a more organized and formal way to help people.

Ch. 1: Intro to Freelance, Ch. 2: Identify Your Valuable Skills

20:47 Courtney: So, that’s what I created this course for. It’s called Endless Freelance Income, how to turn your liberal arts degree into an endless freelance income. However, even if your background is in science or any of the STEM areas, it can also be relevant to you. So, the course at the very beginning, it just introduces you to the online freelance world. So, if you don’t know the first thing about it, don’t worry. I will explain it to you in the course. That’s the first chapter. And then the next chapter, which I think is probably the most valuable one for people, is helping you identify what your most valuable and profitable skills are, from academia, that you can translate into freelance income. Through the mentoring there, I also kind of help people–people tend to overlook their skills. They think, “Oh, I guess I can write,” or like, “I guess I can do some data analysis, but I don’t have a degree in that. So, I’m not qualified to do that.” So, kind of just help people break that down. Imposter syndrome follows you outside of academia. I learned that the hard way. And so, just kind of help people to understand, no, these are valuable skills and you can utilize them.

22:08 Emily: What I liked about that portion of your course, what I noticed there is that you have worksheets in here, right? So, it’s not just like, I’m just reading all this material. It’s a very engaging format, right? So, you’re giving people some little tools they can use to do things like brainstorm about their own skillsets, which I totally agree with what you said. We tend to discount our own skills or our own areas of expertise unless we have a degree in it. That’s very important to us in academics that we have a degree in XYZ. But I know, personally, like my field is now personal finance and I don’t have a degree in personal finance and that’s okay. I’m still confident at this point that I am an expert in this area because of my long experience. But I think that for people who aren’t quite there yet, it is a little difficult of a hurdle to overcome. So, your course definitely helps with that.

22:55 Courtney: Yeah. And you know, same story for me, I’m an anthropologist, but I write in marketing topics, marketing and entrepreneurship. And I am an expert because I became one. And that’s it. And so, you can do it, too. That’s basically what the course helps you to figure out. So, once you’ve kind of broken down and pulled your skills out, then the next chapter teaches you about several different major freelance niches that you can get into. And I already mentioned before, there’s writing, editing translation, administrative support, design and creative, customer service, consulting, data science analysis, and sales and marketing are the ones that I go through. So, those are the main ones. And then it walks you through how you can look at your current skills and line them up with what each of these niches demand, or what they need.

How to Look Professional as a Freelancer

23:46 Courtney: And then it also helps you think about which one’s most interesting to you too. Because it’s not just about your skills, it’s also about what you want to do, right? And then you can choose your niche. And then after that, the course goes through how to make yourself look professional as a freelancer. One thing that I discovered when I left academia is that I needed to tone down my CV. What’s professional in academia and what’s professional in the online business world are very different. And so I kind of teach people how to make yourself look professional online as opposed to professional as a 10-page CV, or something like that. So, that’s the next step. And then the next thing after that is teaching you how to research your niche so that you can figure out what the going rates are in your niche, the going rates for somebody with your skill level, and just kind of also to weed through the riffraff.

24:47 Courtney: Because a lot of people out there, you know, they say $10 an hour or something like that. Yeah. You don’t need to pay attention to those people. So, to figure out how much you should be charging in the beginning. And then after that, the course takes you through step by step how to create your website, which I mentioned before. And then it walks you through what you need to do to land your first client. And that is the course in a nutshell, as it is right now. I plan to add onto it. Like I said before, I think cold pitching is important. So, one thing I plan to add on to it in the future is more information about walking people through how to set up a cold pitching scheme. And so, that’s something I plan to add onto it in the future. And the good news is that if you have access to the course, you buy it now, you’ll have access to all that future material as it comes up.

Bonus Content from Emily

25:34 Emily: That sounds awesome. As I said earlier, I read through the course prior to this interview, and it really breaks things down and simplifies them and doesn’t make it seem so intimidating to start down this path of freelancing. You really don’t over complexify anything. It’s very simple steps to follow, to get started. So, I wanted to mention for my audience, if you choose to buy Courtney’s course through my affiliate link again, pfforphds.com/freelance, I’ve created a couple of extra bonuses for you. So, one that everyone will receive who buys through my link is a free video training on how to budget with an irregular income, right? So, like I’m really confident, you go through Courtney’s course, you’re committed to this. Like you’re going to be starting down that path of having freelance income.

26:18 Emily: And you know, that’s a really great thing, but it can also pose some budgeting challenges. So, I’ve created a training that you’ll get for free when you buy the course on how to manage that. Like manage your finances when you have a side income stream that’s irregular, maybe growing into a full-sized income stream over time. So, it’ll help you with that. And then for the first five people who buy the course, so not everyone, but just the first five, I’m going to offer a free 20-minute financial coaching session. So, what I think will be really great about this is if you schedule this for maybe like two months out from when you start taking the course, it’ll be a nice little accountability point to meet with me at that time and say, “Okay, Emily, here’s the income stream. I’ve established it. I got my first invoice over here. I’ve gotten paid for the first time.” And so we can talk more about what you want to do with that money. How it’s going to help you reach your goals. How it’s going to fit into your budget. Do you want to be paying debt? Do you want to be investing it? So, we can talk about all that kind of stuff. So, that’s how I recommend you use that bonus if you’re one of the first five to sign up is schedule it a little ways out. So you actually have that income stream established by the time we meet together. And I’ll certainly be asking you, have you been implementing everything from the course? So again, pfforphds.com/freelance is where you can sign up and of course link through to find out more about the course from Courtney.

Best Financial Advice for Early-Career Academics

27:38 Emily: So, Courtney, we’ve come to the end of the interview. Thank you so much for what you’ve shared with the audience today. I think it’s been excellent advice and thank you for telling us more about Endless Freelance Income. So, final question that I ask all my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early career academic or maybe recovering academic like you?

28:00 Courtney: My best advice would be don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Something my dad told me when I was 17 years old and I didn’t know what it meant at the time, but now I do. So, even if you’ve got your dream job, even if you’ve gotten that research position or that tenure track job or whatever, you never know what’s going to happen in the future. That’s something we’ve learned this year in 2020, I think. And so, having an additional stream of income is really valuable. And I know that’s what Emily talks about all the time on her blog. And the thing about freelancing is that there’s no risk in starting and giving it a try. And you can just work on it in your spare time and you can build it up over time in whatever time you have. And if you don’t have time to work on it, you don’t have time to work on it. And it doesn’t hurt you to work on this and build up this extra stream of income. You don’t have to be like me where you leave your job and leave your country and change your whole career. I think that all academics should be doing something on the side, some kind of freelancing, blogging, something. So, that’s my advice.

29:06 Emily: Yeah. I totally agree. You know, not all the eggs in one basket can apply it to a lot of different areas, but certainly when it comes to your income, having a job or even being in graduate school means you’re dependent on another institution to decide to continue to give you work. But the advantage of freelancing is that you spread that around to a lot of different clients and it’s much less risk. Yeah, one client drops off, no big deal. You can supplement that by hustling up a few new clients. But if your employer decides they don’t want to work with you anymore, that’s kind of a devastating like life thing. So, excellent, excellent advice. What I also like about what you said is that if you do the work, for instance, by going through your course. If you do the work to establish yourself as a freelancer, and you devote even something like an hour a week to it, like I mentioned earlier. As long as that income stream is established and in a field like freelancing, it’s something that you can decide to turn up or turn down as you need in your own life.

30:00 Emily: So, for example, if you have an unfunded summer, you know, some people–again, you mentioned 2020–some people in 2020 have late in the game discovered that they don’t have summer funding in the way that they thought they would. Yes. Their funding will pick up again in the fall. It’s not like they’re going to drop out of graduate school and get a full-time job or whatever. But for a few months, the income that they thought was secure is not there. So, once the situation is upon you, it’s very difficult to scramble and kind of fix it. But if you’ve already established that one hour per week freelancing job, then that’s something you can ramp up or ramp down as your life allows, as your money situation requires. So, I just think that’s a real advantage to establishing yourself. Even if you’re not going to do it, like you just said, 15 hours a week to make the equivalent of a full-time income. So, great, great advice. Courtney, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It was a real pleasure to talk with you again.

30:54 Courtney: Thanks so much, Emily. Thank you.

Outtro

30:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.