Roth IRA

This NDSEG Fellow Prioritizes Housing and Saving for Mid- and Long-Term Goals

August 5, 2019 by Jewel Lipps

In this episode, Emily interviews Lourdes Bobbio, a graduate student in materials science at Penn State and NDSEG fellow. Lourdes breaks down the top five expenses in her budget: housing, food, taxes, utilities, and subscription services. She explains the financials systems she has put in place to reach financial success during her PhD: targeted savings, automated transfers, quarterly estimated tax, high-yield savings accounts, and taxable retirement investments with a roboadvisor. Lourdes has decided to prioritize her housing within her budget, but still balances that expense with plenty of saving for her future wedding and retirement.

Links mentioned in episode

Teaser

Lourdes (00:00): Being able to pull some money from my fun fund instead of from my budget for the month is kind of nice because I can still have a nice experience but not have to worry about that taking away from like going out to dinner with my friends or going on a date night with my boyfriend or something like that.

Introduction

Emily (00:20): Welcome to the personal finance for PhDs podcast, a Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Emily Roberts. This is season three, episode 11, and today my guest is Lourdes Bobbio, a graduate student in material science at Penn State and NDSEG fellow. In this budget breakdown, Lourdes lists her top five expenses, details her financial goals and their underlying systems, and gives her best financial advice for her peers. She shares with us how she has successfully navigated the challenges of quarterly estimated tax, irregular expenses, and her lack of IRA access. You won’t want to miss her concluding insight into the psychological benefits of budgeting. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Lourdes Bobbio.

Please Introduce Yourself

Emily (01:07): Thank you for joining me on the podcast today. My guest is Lourdes Bobbio, who is a grad student at Penn State University, and I’m just delighted to hear her budget breakdown today. So we’re gonna dive into that right now. Uh, Lourdes, would you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

Lourdes (01:24): Sure. Uh, thanks again for having me, Emily. I’m really excited to talk with you about my finances as a grad student. Um, so like you mentioned, I am currently a fourth year grad student at Penn State University, which is located in State College, Pennsylvania. Um, and I am in the material science and engineering department at Penn State.

Emily (01:45): Yeah. Excellent. Are you single? Your household is just you?

Lourdes (01:48): Yes, I currently live alone by myself, so.

What is your income?

Emily (01:51): Okay, excellent. Just wanna get that structure upfront there. Um, so with the budget breakdown episode, I’m basically gonna ask three super high level questions and we’re just gonna dive into those and see where it takes us. And the first one is, what is your income?

Lourdes (02:08): Um, so I am currently on the National Defense Science and Engineering graduate Fellowship, so I make $38,400 a year, which breaks down to $3,200 a month. Um, so yeah.

Emily (02:23): Yeah, very nice income for our grad student and congratulations on winning that, winning that fellowship. That’s excellent, okay, so that’s your income. Um, I imagine it goes pretty far in state college.

Lourdes (02:35): Yes, it does.

What are your five largest expenses each month?

Emily (02:37): So yeah. So tell us about your five largest expenses, what you’re paying for each one of those so that anyone else can get some, you know, local insight.

#1 Expense: Rent

Lourdes (02:45): Yeah, so yeah, like you mentioned, state College is a college town, so the cost of living is fairly low compared to any of like the major big cities. Um, I grew up in near Washington, DC and then went to my undergrad in Boston, so I’m kind of was very accustomed to the more high cost of living, so coming here was definitely a big change. Um, um, so for my five largest expenses, I would say my top one is definitely rent. Um, I live in the downtown area of state college, so I pay a little bit more in rent and I also live on my own, um, with no roommates. And so that’s something that another sort of factor that factors into the higher cost of rent. And um, it’s something that I determined that I valued a lot. I valued being close to campus, being able to walk, um, to work every day, um, being close to like the restaurants and stuff like that. And then also being able to live on my own. Um, and so one of the reasons why I did choose to live closer to campus is because I don’t have a car, so I actually don’t have any car payment or insurance that I have to spend money on. So sort of the money that I would normally spend on that, I sort of put it into the, my sort of rent budget category.

Emily (04:05): Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Um, so first living near DC and then Boston. Have you ever owned a car?

Lourdes (04:12): No, I have never owned a car.

Emily (04:14): Okay. So this is a kind of a natural choice for you to say, okay, I’m moving to state college, I don’t currently have a car. You know, did you ask yourself, how can I set up my life so that I don’t need a car? Is this a common thing for grad students not to have a car?

Lourdes (04:27): No. I would say a majority of the grad students do have cars here. Um, I don’t think it makes it a little bit easier. Um, just in terms of, since state college, if more, if you wanna get out of state college, I would say because state college is small, there is sort of a limited amount of stuff to do that’s within walking distance and within the public transportation sort of, um, area. Um, so if you wanna sort of go away for the weekend or something, then having a car is a lot more useful. Um, but I have never had a car, so I didn’t feel the need to get one. And there’s an abundance of housing close by to campus and like I mentioned, there is a fairly good bus system, um, throughout the local area, um, that I can use if need be. So

Emily (05:15): Yeah. Um, a couple more specifics about the place that you live and did I catch, did you say the amount of money that you’re spending on rent?

Lourdes (05:22): No. Um, so I spend about $1,500 on rent a month. So it’s definitely the higher.

Emily (05:28): Sounds a little high to me. <laugh>.

Lourdes (05:29): Yeah, it’s definitely on the higher end. The apartment I currently live in, um, is a one bedroom with like, it’s called an office space, so it’s like a smaller, can be a second bedroom. And there have been times when I’ve contemplated maybe getting a roommate, but I really value having that sort of space of my own. And, um, so the reason that, um, this sort of came about is because when I first got here, so the way, because this is a college town, it runs very much on the school schedule. So as a grad student, sometimes when you get accepted and then finally learn about like, you know, finding housing and such, the big cycle of finding apartments is kind of over like, that really happens in like October, November, December. And so when you’re figuring out your grad school decision, that’s more in the spring.

Lourdes (06:19): And so there was, when I was first looking at a place to live, there was sort of a limited number of like, number of places downtown that I could live. And since I wasn’t gonna be bringing a car, that’s something that was important to me. And so, um, I did find this place. I’ve lived in the same place for my whole time in grad school. Um, and so for the first year when I wasn’t on a fellowship, my parents actually were helping me out a little bit, paying for rent. Um, and they also lived close by, um, in the DC area, so they would come to visit a lot and they liked having that sort of like that second office space bedroom to be able to stay over. Um, and then when I did get my fellowship, I sort of evaluated, um, that also came at a time for my parents when they were no longer gonna be able to help me just because of some of their own personal finance issues. And so, um, I sort of had to evaluate whether or not I wanted to move or not, and I sort of decided I liked where I was and with my fellowship I could afford it. Um, so I decided to stay where I was.

Emily (07:24): Yeah, definitely your decision making process makes sense to me. And the thing is that if you hadn’t won that fellowship, I mean, I think you would’ve had to move, right? Like it’s compared to a, you know, base sort of stipend. Yeah, it is quite high, but hey, you won it and it’s working out and you can afford it. Um, that’s, yeah, that sounds lovely. And so the reason I’m asking a little bit more about the transportation issues, um, is, is because it’s really sometimes the trade off makes sense to not own a car and then to to pay more in rent, um, but to have the proximity and to have the access to public transit and all of that stuff. So, um, I’m sort of lumping together your, like what we would talk about under transportation, under like the housing stuff. So one more question about that is, you know, you mentioned it’s, it’s easy enough to get around town. Um, what do you do about getting out of town? Like, do you not go or do you only travel with other people or do you rent a car or like, how does that work?

Lourdes (08:21): Um, so I have a, uh, long-term boyfriend. We’ve been dating for a couple of years, so usually when I go anywhere, we go together and he has a car. Um, so that’s usually how that works out. Or sometimes with friends, uh, I would say maybe half of my friends have a car, so we’ll plan group trips together and go places I hardly ever go anywhere just on my own. Um, so

#2 Expense: Taxes

Emily (08:43): Yeah. That makes sense. Um, okay, so let’s move on to your second largest expense.

Lourdes (08:50): Yeah, so for that I would say sort of, I’m not sure if I categorize it as an expense necessarily, but um, because I’m on a fellowship, um, that doesn’t take taxes out, I sort of charge myself the taxes that I would have to pay on my fellowship at the end of the tax year. Um, and so that’s sort of one of the next biggest expenses on my list of expenses and something that I take into account at the beginning of the month when I get paid, I make sure to take out that money right away and set it aside in a savings account so that when I do have to make those quarterly estimated payments, um, I have that money set aside, I don’t have to worry about trying to scrounge it out from somewhere. So,

Emily (09:27): So you just mentioned several really important things, right there for, um, fellowship recipients to consider. So first, uh, PSA <laugh>, if you’re receiving a fellowship, it’s fairly likely that your university is not withholding tax on your behalf. Mo- vast, vast majority of universities work that way. So you are withholding tax essentially for yourself instead of relying on your employer who is not your employer, um, to do that for you. So awesome system. Can you tell me a little bit more about how, you know, mechanically you actually do that? Logistically?

Lourdes (10:01): Yeah. So, um, do you mean in terms of calculating or actually set, setting aside the money? Okay. Yeah. So when I first got my fellowship and sort of realized that no taxes were gonna be withheld, I sort of had to go through the whole process of, um, I think it’s the 1040, um, es worksheet to, uh, where you input your income and it sort of takes you through the steps of sort of figuring out how much you’re gonna owe at the end of the year. And so, um, I did that and got the total amount that I would owe. And then since I also read that you would be paying these quarterly, um, divided by four, or I guess I divided the whole thing by 12, um, and then would set aside that amount of money per month. And so the way I do this and the way I do all my budgeting is on a spreadsheet.

Lourdes (10:58): Um, and so I have this budgeting spreadsheet, um, that has the entire year sort of planned out for me. So I do like a 12 month, um, overview of the year where I plan. And since I know how much I’m gonna make every month, it’s very steady. Um, I have that amount sort of as the top line, and then from there I take out taxes and then any my savings and then utilities, those types of, um, bills, um, that I know I’m gonna have to pay. And then, um, sort of from there calculate how much leftover spending money I have. But that’s effectively, so I calculated how much I would have to pay, um, each month if I were getting with like basically how much I had to pay the whole year divided by 12, and then put that into my budget spreadsheet to calculate, and then I set it aside in a high yield savings account so I can, can earn a little money off of that, um, until I have to pay it each quarter, um, to the irs. So

Emily (11:59): Yeah, I just, that’s just a perfect embodiment of, of how to handle this, the, the way that, that I think is the best way too. So I’m glad we both came to the same conclusion there. I mean, from, I’ll just review a couple things. So one, you figured out what your quarterly estimate tax would be by using Form 1040-ES, which is, um, for those of you who don’t know, it’s not something you ever have to submit to the federal government, but it just helps you figure out how much the IRS does expect you to pay throughout the year. Um, if anyone needs extra help with that, I do have a workshop on it that’s available year round, and so I’ll link that in the show notes. Um, so you use that to figure out how much you need to set aside every single month, and it’s just, it’s just another line item in your budget as you were describing.

Emily (12:42): Yep. And you have, I I would expect an automated transfer set up, um, like after you’re paid, it automatically transfers to a separate, as you said, high yield savings account. Yeah. And sort of the, the upside to paying your own quarterly estimated tax is that you do get to build it up for a few months before you send it into the IRS, uh, compared to the timing of, you know, withholding. And so, hey, you get, you know, month two, three extra of that little, you know, 2%, you know, interest rate or whatever you get on your savings account. So, um, I love that idea. Do you mind sharing who you bank with to find that high yield savings account?

Lourdes (13:16): Yeah, so, um, I bank with Discover Online Bank. I also have a credit card with them, so it kind of makes it easy. Um, and then I’m also, so that’s sort of where I put a lot of my long-term savings. And then I have a, uh, checking account with just a local credit union. Um, and that also has a savings account that has a little bit more of my, my short term savings goals, um, which I think I’ll talk about a little bit later.

#3 Expense: Food

Emily (13:39): Yeah, sounds perfect. Um, okay. Ready to move on to the next item?

Lourdes (13:43): Yeah. Um, so next item would definitely be food. Um, both groceries and going out to eat. Um, I definitely spend more on going out to eat than I would like, but I don’t necessarily feel bad about it because I generally budget for it and I know how much I can spend, so I don’t, it usually evens out in that the amount of, if I’m not buying groceries every week and going out, it’s a little bit more than I wouldn’t spend if I were buying groceries. But because it’s sort of budgeted into my overall budget, I don’t necessarily feel guilty about going out to eat.

Emily (14:19): I, I really love that I also experienced that same like, sort of psychological side effect of budgeting, which is before I kept a budget, I would maybe feel some guilt about discretionary spending, going out, making, you know, going shopping, things like that because I didn’t really have a good idea about how we would fit into my overall, you know, cash flow. And I’d be like, okay, well did I just like overdraw myself for like the end of the month? So budgeting really for me ended up being, um, a freeing exercise and something

Lourdes (14:50): I agree.

Emily (14:51): Not experience guilt anymore because as long as I knew it was in balance and I stayed within the budgeted amounts, I didn’t have to feel guilty anymore about the discretionary spending. So I’m really, really glad you mentioned that.

Lourdes (15:01): Yeah, and for me it’s also like a way, um, to get together with my friends. Generally at the end of the week we’ll go out to eat or go out for drinks and it’s just a way to unwind, um, with, and like a way to socialize. So again, it’s something that I definitely, I value, I place importance on that, so

Emily (15:21): Yeah, absolutely. Did you tell us the amount, the amount you spend on food?

Lourdes (15:24): Yeah, so I usually spend about $200 a month on food between groceries and going out to eat. Um, maybe 200 to 300 depending on the month,

#4 and #5 Expense: Utilities and Subscription Services

Emily (15:35): So. Yeah, it seems pretty reasonable even with a healthy, you know, eating out, uh, budget in there. Uh, okay, so what’s the fourth expense?

Lourdes (15:43): Uh, so honestly, aside from those major expenses, I don’t really have, oh, utilities obviously, um, utilities and, um, subscription services. Um, I’ve recently cut down a little bit on my subscription services, um, just because, um, I realized that there were some that I wasn’t using utilizing nearly as much as um, I could. And so I’ve cut them out, but I spend usually about, um, 30 to $40 on electricity, um, per month. And I have it budgeted as $40 because that’s usually the highest it ever goes. It’s usually in the thirties range. And then my subscription services, I think amount to about $25 a month, um, between Netflix, Spotify, the typical ones you’d expect. <laugh>,

Emily (16:34): Um, yeah, I was just gonna say what made the cut. Okay, so Netflix, Spotify, anything else?

Lourdes (16:38): Um, audible actually made the cut. It was one of the higher ones and I realized that I, I love to read and audio books for me are a great way to, um, be able to read while doing lab work very easily. Um, but I realized I was accumulating five, six credits that I just wouldn’t spend. So that’s almost, uh, it’s about $15 a month and I was like, I’m clearly not using this. I realized that sort of every year at the beginning of the year, I sort of evaluate my budget again, and that’s when I decided that I’m clearly not using this. I haven’t used it for the last six months, it’s, it’s gotta go. So, um, that helped cut that, cut that down a little bit. Um, so yeah.

Emily (17:20): Yeah. I just love that you mentioned that you do have a periodic reevaluation of your expenses. Um, and, and even, you know, earlier when you mentioned, you know, your rent, like after your first year of graduate school, you reevaluate and said, okay, is it worth being here? I mean, whether or not you decide, yes, it’s worth it or no, it’s not, it’s the reevaluation that’s so valuable and needs to happen over and over again. Just make sure that you’re still happy with your situation in every, every which way. So I’m glad that you, you know, sort of have it in your, in your calendar, in your mind, um, to happen every single year. So that’s awesome. Um, yeah. So is, is that all the five expenses? I think we got through them, right?

Lourdes (17:57): Yeah, so, um, I’m lucky that my apartment complex actually has internet and cable included. Um, and so I don’t have to pay for those. I probably wouldn’t have paid for cable anyway, just ’cause I don’t watch that much tv. Um, but it is nice to have the internet included ’cause that can get pricey. Um, especially since here there’s really not, there’s two major internet companies and not much competition, so it gets pretty pricey. Um, so it’s nice to have that included.

Emily (18:27): Yeah, good to know that that is included in that rent. So it, it sounded high at the, at first, but then, you know, breaking it down, it definitely makes, uh, more and more sense.

Commercial

Emily (18:38): This summer I’m putting forth extra support for PhDs undergoing career transitions into grad school, a postdoc or a real job. If you’re moving on to the next stage in your career or thinking about it, please visit pfforphds.com/next to check out my articles, webinars, and coaching program allow me to come alongside you during this transition to ensure that you set yourself up for financial success.

What are you currently doing to further your financial goals?

Emily (19:08): Okay. So we’ve talked about your spending. Um, let’s talk about financial goals.

Lourdes (19:13): Yeah. Um, so I have short-term, midterm and long-term goals and, um, the way I sort of, um, break these down, um, I have sort of two different savings accounts that I use to break these down. Um, so I have a savings account that’s with my credit union, um, that’s connected to my checking account. So I put a lot of the money that I save for my short term goals in there, and then my more midterm and long-term goals go into the high yield savings accounts. And so, for example, some of my short-term goals, um, I have, uh, just a general travel fund since I don’t have a car. If I wanna go home, um, to visit my parents, I take a bus that takes me straight to DC um, but I save up some money, especially near the holidays, it can get kind of pricey. So sort of saving up throughout the year for that. Um, I put maybe like $15, $20 a month towards that fund. Um, and then I have a, um, gift fund as well. So, um, mainly for Christmas, but also for any gifts that come up come up throughout the year. Um, definitely getting to the age where I get invited to weddings quite frequently, so having that sort of there means I don’t have to dip into my just general daily monthly budget and can have a separate fund for that. Um, and then I have what I call a fun fund, which is for more higher price fun experiences. So we have a lot of times Broadway shows come through, um, state college, um, and, um, those are usually a little bit more expensive. They’re like 60 to $70. So being able to pull some money from my fun fund instead of, um, from my budget for the month is kind of nice because I can still, um, go to have a nice experience but not have to worry about that taking away from like going out to dinner with my friends or going on a date night with my boyfriend or something like that. Um, and also most recently, um, I also really like to bake. And so I saw a deal online, it was like a one day deal for a hundred dollars on a KitchenAid mixer, which is a pretty good steal in my opinion. Um, ’cause I’ve been like, I’ve seen the prices for those, they can range like three, $400. So I was able to sort of buy that and take advantage of that deal without sort of having it impact my whole budget. Um, so that’s sort of what my fund fund is for. And those are some of sort of my short term financial goals, I suppose.

Emily (21:47): Yeah, let’s, I I just wanna say, you know, I, I love this system. Um, I talk about it frequently. I call it, um, a system of targeted savings accounts. Another term is sinking funds. That’s more of an accounting kind of term. Um, but yeah, the idea is just, uh, projecting as best you’re able, what your expenses are going to be irregularly, right? So something that comes up once a year, a couple times a year, um, and starting to save up in advance for those different categories. And it sounds like you’ve both, like you’re, you both have expenses that you can pretty well anticipate, like you mentioned travel, okay, it’s gonna happen around the holidays. I know approximately what amount it’s going to be in. You can save up for that pretty easily, but it also sounds like you have, um, with your fun fund <laugh>, that’s a little bit hard to say with your fun fund. Um, you have like, okay, it’s, it’s just something that you have the money there, there’s a certain amount of it that you’re saving every single month. And it’s more like as opportunities come up and you’re like, yeah, I wanna do that, this is the fund that you can draw on. Um, so again, it’s not impacting your monthly cashflow, it’s not necessarily something you’ve planned out, but it just is something that allows you to capitalize on opportunities when you see them. Like when you saw this sale for something, you’ve been thinking about buying for some time and tracking the prices for. So I really love that you have both like a, a proactive, like predictive element of this as well as a reactive like, okay, I know there’s just gonna be things that I wanna do, so let’s plan. I don’t know what it’s gonna be, but I’ll be able to do it, you know, when you see it, right?

Lourdes (23:14): Yeah, exactly.

Emily (23:15): So let’s talk about those, um, mid and long-term saving goals now.

Lourdes (23:19): Yeah, so some of those, um, so my boyfriend and I, we’ve been together for about three and a half years. And so, um, he already graduated from grad school this past, um, just this past week actually.

Emily (23:33): Oh, Congratulations to him.

Lourdes (23:35): Yeah, and I’ll be graduating in a year. So we’re thinking about, um, getting married soon and so sort of planning for a little bit ahead for a wedding since I know those can get quite expensive. Um, just putting away like a a hundred, a couple hundred dollars a month, um, towards that. And then also more long term a house is something that I definitely would like to purchase in the future. Um, this is definitely, like I said long term, um, but putting a little bit of money away each month for that and just seeing that sort of fund grow. Um, I really like having that. I have a little tracker in Excel, just a little graph that, uh, like you can see it sort of grow and it’s nice to see that and sort of gives me a goal to work for in the future, just like continually working and not having to worry about it, like when it becomes a shorter term goal.

Lourdes (24:23): And so those are some of sort of like my mid and long-term goals also, um, because I am on a fellowship, I have to pay out of pocket for my health insurance. Um, and while my fellowship does reimburse it somewhat, um, it’s not as much as if I were a regular like on a, uh, research assistantship. Um, and so it’s still quite expensive, but obviously very important. This is actually something that just, um, came up in terms of like my financial life last August because I was gonna be, um, taken off my parents’ health insurance and so I needed to sort of figure that out. And, um, thankfully at the time, I have an emergency fund as well, aside from these sort of sinking funds, um, I have an emergency fund of about, uh, $12,000, um, just set aside. And so I was able to pay for my health insurance no problem.

Lourdes (25:19): And there was some issue in getting reimbursed by my health insurance, um, which could have been an issue if I hadn’t, like if it was money that I needed to live on, but thankfully it was just money that I had set aside for this exact purpose where it’s something that I hadn’t exactly planned and hadn’t really thought of, um, but was able to pay for. And so, um, now knowing that and knowing I’m gonna have to pay for my health insurance in this upcoming August is when we have to renew it. Um, I’ve been saving aside money for that every month as well, so I can pay for that. So.

Do you have long term goals?

Emily (25:55): Yeah, what a perfect use of an emergency fund. Um, I, I kind of, I thought about what exactly is the definition of an emergency, you know, before, and to me an emergency is something that is both totally necessary, a necessary expense and also, um, unanticipated. So you knew you were gonna come off your parents’ insurance, but you did not know I would imagine what the premium was gonna be and that there were gonna be these issues with the reimbursements and so forth. So, and of course it’s a necessary expense has to be paid on time, you can’t mess around with that. So it’s just wonderful that you have that, um, fund already available for you. So do you have any other long-term goals?

Lourdes (26:31): Yeah, so I actually am also currently saving for retirement. Um, and so I was able to for one year max out my Roth IRA, um, before I, I was on my uh, fellowship. Um, but since then and since at that point I learned that I was no longer eligible to contribute to my Roth ira, I have been investing in just a general taxable brokerage account. Um, and I haven’t been contributing as, um, much as I would’ve probably to my Roth IRA just because I know that is tax deferred, but I still do try to put in a hundred or $200 a month into that, um, as sort of a very long-term goal and to try to keep that investment going even though I don’t have the tax advantage vehicle of the Roth IRA.

Emily (27:21): Yeah. So just to expand on that for another moment because this is something that, you know, I get plenty of questions about. Um, so first of all, your eligibility for an IRA depends on you having what’s called taxable compensation or earned income, which in terms of grad student pay means W2 pay, which is usually termed as an assistantship, uh, TA, RA. So you having the NDSEG fellowship, um, doesn’t count as taxable compensation or earned income. Now at that point, a lot of people who I talk with, um, throw out their hands and say, oh, well I have this higher income, I don’t have access to an IRA, I guess I won’t say for retirement. And obviously as someone who’s very, very pro investing and especially for retirement and especially at a young, as young and age as possible, um, I’m like, no, no, no. Like you can, you can go ahead, it, it can’t be inside an IRA, but you can still do it. And so I’d really love for you to talk a little bit more about how you, um, came to this understanding and found, you know, the, the way that you’re, you know, you’re using a tax taxable brokerage account, but a lot of people don’t even know what that is. So like how did you find out about this and how did you decide you know, where to open and so forth?

Lourdes (28:33): Yeah, so when I was sort of, when I got my fellowship and when I sort of learned about all the implications of that in terms of like taxes and um, investing for retirement, that’s when I also learned that um, I would have, if I wanted to invest it would have to be in a taxable account. And so I did a lot of research, um, in terms of um, I guess what brokerage I wanted to invest with. And because at the time I didn’t feel very knowledgeable about um, picking funds or ETFs or anything. I had money in a Roth, IRA, um, with Vanguard, they make it easy to have target date accounts, but I wanted to try to see if I could try something else, um, and decided to go with a, a robo-advisor, an online robo-advisor. So I currently invest with uh, Wealthfront and um, have enjoyed the experience so far, um, and just find it a very easy way to get a broad, um, a broad portfolio in terms of the different stocks that I’m invested in.

Lourdes (29:38): They sort of, um, you take a little quiz with a risk assessment and sort of I’m a little bit on the higher end and just because I’m young I know I can have that risk factor, um, and sort of um, went that route. Um, but I did a lot of research in terms of sort of what I felt would be good for me, um, and how much time I was willing to put into it. And I think maybe in the future I might move this money to somewhere with um, lower fees. I currently don’t have to pay any fees because I’m under a certain amount of money, um, which is nice. Um, but if I ever were to continue to um, uh, add money to this account and I went over that uh, threshold, I might decide to move it to somewhere where I would have, I wouldn’t have to pay an advisory fee.

Emily (30:24): Yeah, I’m really glad you you provided that detail because I learned something new. So these roboadvisors, I’ve looked into a few of them. Wealthfront is one of the prominent ones. Um, and people often ask me about using roboadvisors, so I’m really glad that you can speak to this a little bit. Um, and as you said, it’s a really, um, easy solution. You answer a few questions about yourself and they come up with a portfolio recommendation. I do in general think that it’s kind of overkill, especially for someone who is investing inside an IRA, um, and is just going for retirement and sort of a simple thing what you were already doing inside your IRA, but to me it actually makes a lot of sense once you switch to using a taxable investment account that, um, an advisory service with a little bit more of a hands-on approach can do some tax optimization for you.

Emily (31:11): So it actually makes a ton of sense to me. Um, and it’s great news actually that, you know, for now you are not being charged an advisory fee because that is really the main, as I’m sure you learned in your research, the main downside to using a RoboAdvisor or any other sort of slightly more expensive service is the fees. The fees don’t sound like very much, you know, maybe 0.25%, something like that doesn’t sound like a lot, but it adds up quite a lot over time. So it’s really exciting to me that you were, you know, able to do this without a fee. I mean, that’s kind of the best of all the worlds, right? Do you mind sharing what is that ceiling under which they don’t charge the advisory fee?

Lourdes (31:45): Um, I believe it’s $15,000. Um, and then if you refer people it, they will as a bonus, they’ll, um, increase it. I don’t know by how much, um, for each person you refer, but I think that is just the base, um, baseline ceiling for a no fee.

Emily (32:05): Yeah, that is awesome to know. Do you want to share your referral link?

Lourdes (32:11): Um, can I send that to you?

Emily (32:13): Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So we’ll pop that referral link into the show notes and you’ll help Lourdes and you’ll help yourself if you are already interested in wealthfront, Hey, why not? She’s giving you a tip about not having that advisory fee at the lower balances. So win, win, win, I would say all around.

What is your best financial advice that you’d share with your peers?

Emily (32:28): We will just conclude with me asking you what is your best financial advice that you would share with, um, your peers, whether that is another grad student, another fellowship recipient, someone else living in state college, anything along those lines?

Lourdes (32:42): Um, I would definitely say sort of speaking to what you mentioned earlier is not be afraid of having a budget. I know a lot of people think of having a budget or something constricting and something that will make you not like spend, not be able to spend money because you’re, you’re on a budget, but really it’s a very freeing thing, especially as a grad student where you’re on sort of a limited income. Um, being able to see where your money is going and sort of be in control of that, um, definitely makes you feel more free in terms of the things you can do on a day-to-day basis or, um, on even like a longer term. You sort of get this sort of freedom that, um, I think is really valuable and makes finances just seem less scary.

Emily (33:32): I’m in total agreement with you about the benefits, the psychological benefits of budgeting, as well as the actual, uh, financial benefits. So thank you so much for sharing that and uh, for joining us today. I’m really, really glad that you, uh, yeah. That you came on the podcast.

Lourdes (33:46): Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed speaking to you

Outro

Emily (33:50): Listeners. I’m so glad you joined us For today’s episode, pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, a survey, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. See you in the next episode. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC Podcast. Editing and show notes creation by Jewel Lipps.

What to Do With Your 401(k) or 403(b) When You Start Grad School

April 29, 2019 by Emily

One of the common perks that companies and organizations give to their employees is access to a workplace-based retirement account such as a 401(k) or 403(b). They may even match your contributions to a degree! Unfortunately the great majority of universities do not give their graduate students access to their 403(b)s. (This does happen rarely, so it’s worth inquiring about.) If you had a 401(k) or 403(b) in a prior job, what do you do with that account when you leave your job for grad school?

Further reading: Financial Reasons to Work Before Starting Your PhD

Your Three Options for Your Workplace-Based Retirement Account

In general when you leave a job, you have three options for what to do with your 401(k) or 403(b).

Leave It Where It Is

Most of the time, your former employer will permit you to leave your 401(k) or 403(b) where it is and continue to manage the account for you while you are in grad school. Employers usually have a minimum balance requirement to maintain these accounts, so your account has to meet that bar.

The upside to this approach is that you don’t have to do anything, and if you liked the investment options and account fees, you can keep using it.

The downside to this approach is that you have to stay in some degree of contact with your former employer and go through them if you want to make any changes to the account.

Roll to Your New Workplace-Based Retirement Account

If you have the option to open a 403(b) with your university, you may be able to roll your previous 401(k) or 403(b) into that account. Again, this opportunity is rarely extended to grad students.

Roll to an IRA

You always have the option when you leave a job to roll your 401(k) or 403(b) into an Individual Retirement Arrangement (IRA). An IRA’s tax advantages are similar to those of a workplace-based retirement account, but you manage the account yourself instead of your employer managing it. Be sure that you have instructed your firms to execute a “rollover” directly to your IRA and not to cash out your account and send you a check, which would be a hassle to correct. You can use an existing IRA account or open an IRA account specifically to receive this transfer.

Which Option Should You Choose?

The general personal finance advice is to always roll your 401(k) or 403(b) when you leave an employer to avoid eventually having accounts scattered across many employers and potentially losing track of one. Whether you should roll into your new employer’s 401(k) or 403(b) or your IRA is debated. If you are trying to optimize the investments inside your retirement account, IRAs have an advantage because the entire world of investment options is open to you, whereas the options inside a 401(k) or 403(b) are only what your employer decides to make available. Sometimes, 401(k) or 403(b) plans are more expensive than what you can get inside an IRA, and since cost minimization is a key tenant of successful investing, again IRAs are preferred.

However, this general advice is not necessarily fully applicable to grad students.

First, your options are mostly likely to be either to leave your 401(k) or 403(b) where it is or to roll it into an IRA.

Second, you may not want to manage your own investments. While managing your IRA can be easy and hands-off, it may still be intimidating, and some students might prefer to simply choose among the options offered by the former employer to opening and managing an IRA.

Third, the investments available to an individual investor inside an IRA may not be as attractive as the institutional-level investments available inside a 401(k) or 403(b) in terms of their fees. To paint with an overly broad brush, 401(k) and 403(b) options at smaller companies and organizations may be more expensive than what you can buy inside an IRA, whereas 401(k) and 403(b) options at larger companies and organizations may be less expensive than what you can buy inside an IRA. So if you were employed by a university or a large company before starting grad school, compare the cost (expense ratios) of your current investment options with those at the brokerage firm you’re considering for your IRA. It may turn out that your existing options are more favorable.

Further reading:

My advice to entering grad students is to roll your 401(k) or 403(b) into an IRA unless you have high-quality, inexpensive investment options inside the workplace-based retirement account and do not want to manage your own account.

Other Advice Related to Retirement Saving

You’re on a great path already by starting to invest for retirement through your job. If at all possible, continue to make excellent choices related to retirement investing during grad school.

Contribute Money to Your 401(k) or 403(b) While You Still Can

It’s a great idea to kick your retirement savings rate into an even higher gear in the months you have left at your job. You’re likely to not have access to a 401(k) or 403(b) again for quite a while, so any additional money you can get into that tax-advantaged account will be a huge boon to your post-PhD self. (Plus, you’re forcing yourself to deflate your lifestyle, which you’ll have to do in a few months anyway!)

However, don’t become so zealous about retirement saving that you compromise your cash position. It’s going to take a good amount of cash to transition into grad school between moving costs, start-up expenses, and university fees. You don’t want to put a lot of money inside your 401(k) or 403(b) only to turn to credit cards to make it until your first grad school paycheck.

Keep Investing for Retirement!

Yes, it is sometimes possible to invest for retirement during grad school, but it heavily depends on your stipend, the local cost of living, and the rest of your financial situation. If you have no pressing debt, enough cash savings for emergencies and short-term expenses, and some excess cash flow, please continue to invest for retirement!

Further reading:

If you have W-2 income as a grad student (typically from an assistantship) in a given calendar year, you can contribute to an IRA. If you don’t have IRA eligibility due to receiving only non-W-2 (typically fellowship) income in a given calendar year, don’t let that stop you from investing for retirement! You can still use a taxable brokerage account. Between tax-efficient investments and your low tax bracket, you are likely to still enjoy tax benefits of investing even outside of an IRA.

Further reading:

Consider Traditional to Roth Conversion During Grad School

During your time in grad school, you may be in a lower tax bracket than you were while at your previous job. Grad students, unless married to someone with a much higher income, are usually in the 12% marginal tax bracket at the highest.

If you have any money in a traditional 401(k), 403(b), or IRA (which you certainly would if you ever received a retirement contribution match from your employer), consider converting it from traditional to Roth during your lower-earning grad school years. It’s pretty unlikely that you’ll ever be in the 12% (or lower) tax bracket again after you finish grad school due to both your personal earning potential and today’s rock-bottom income tax rates, so it makes sense to do the conversion at that low tax rate to gain the benefits of a Roth IRA. (People are flocking to do this type of conversion even in much higher tax brackets!)

Further reading: Why the Roth IRA Is the Ideal Long-Term Savings Vehicle for a Grad Student

When you do the conversion, you’ll have to pay income tax on the full balance of your traditional retirement account. Before you start the conversion process, be sure that you 1) have enough cash to pay the tax and 2) are not bumping yourself into a higher tax bracket with that income infusion.

You don’t have to rush to do this in your first full calendar year as a grad student if you’re not ready, but you should do it as early as you can, and keep an eye on that year in which you expect to finish and get a higher-paying job.

This conversion can be slightly complicated if you only want to convert part of your traditional money in any given year, so be sure to discuss your plans with the brokerage firm that houses your IRA.

Conclusion

Great job on contributing to a 401(k) or 403(b) prior to starting grad school! The positive financial habits you’ve already cultivated will serve you well during and after grad school. If you want to take any steps at all with your existing workplace-based retirement account, they are quite straightforward and easily accomplished.

Why You Should Contribute to Last Year’s Roth IRA

April 9, 2019 by Emily

Good news for you investors: The calendar may say 2021, but you can contribute to your 2020 Roth IRA up until Tax Day (May 17, 2021)! Why is this good news? Because you can continue to contribute to your Roth IRA (if you have contribution room) without taking up contribution room in 2021. In this way, you can roll forward some of your contribution room, even over multiple years. This is particularly useful for those of you expecting income increases in 2022 or so.

The IRS’s Retirement Account Contribution Window Extends until Tax Day

Every calendar year from January 1 to December 31, you can contribute to your retirement account for the current year. This applies to IRAs (Roth and traditional), 401(k)s, 403(b)s, etc. You can also contribute to last year’s retirement account in the subsequent calendar year up through Tax Day. You can even open and fund an IRA for the previous year!

Right now, between January 1, 2021 and May 17, 2021 (Tax Day), you have the choice of contributing to your 2020 IRA or your 2021 IRA assuming you are eligible and have contribution room in both years. In fact, you should contribute as much as you can to your prior year IRA before switching over to the current year IRA.

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Eligibility and Contribution Limits

I’m going to clear up the caveats I’ve been making right here.

Eligibility: You need “taxable compensation” in a calendar year to contribute to that year’s IRA. Employee (W-2) and self-employment income are both taxable compensation. Fellowship income, if not reported on a W-2, was not considered taxable compensation in 2019. However, the definition of taxable compensation was changed for 2020 and following to include taxable fellowship and scholarship income for graduate students and postdocs.

Further listening: Fellowship Income Is Now Eligible to Be Contributed to an IRA!

Contribution limit: The contribution limits on IRAs are pretty low, at least in comparison with workplace-based retirement accounts like 403(b)s and 401(k)s. For 2020, you can only contribute a maximum of $6,000 ($7,000 for those over age 50) or the amount of taxable compensation you had in the calendar year, whichever is lower. You do not have to contribute the entire $6,000 in a year; it’s fine to contribute $1,000 or $3,000 or whatever you can. When I say contribution room throughout this post, I mean the difference between your contribution limit, e.g., $6,000, and the amount you’ve already contributed.

Why Is Contributing to an IRA So Important?

You may be asking yourself why I’m writing about Roth IRA contributions in particular. After all, once you’re out of graduate school and actually able to save more money, don’t you have a reasonable expectation of receiving a 401(k) or similar employee benefit?

1) Yes, you probably will work somewhere that provides you with a 403(b) or 401(k) or other type of workplace-based retirement account (or you’ll be self-employed and have self-employment retirement accounts available to you). Exception: Some postdoc positions (and adjunct!) might not offer a 403(b). But you don’t know the future, so I think it’s better to be cautious and roll forward as much contribution room as you can.

2) Even if you have a workplace-based retirement account available to you, the rule of thumb for retirement contribution priority is: workplace up to the match, IRA, then workplace again. This is because you can buy just about any fund you want through any brokerage firm in your IRA, whereas your options in your workplace based account will be severely limited. It is assumed that you can find better quality (read: cheaper) investment options through your IRA, so that should be prioritized. However, you should definitely check out your options through your workplace account before assuming this is true for you; some universities offer good, low-cost institutional investment options that might be even better than what you can buy as an individual.

3) Your workplace might only offer a traditional retirement account, so an IRA will give you the option of using a Roth, which you could take if you think it’s the better choice for you in a given year.

Why Am I Specifying a Roth IRA?

As far as your taxes go, if you’re contributing to a Roth IRA in both calendar years, it doesn’t matter which one you choose during the overlapping period. If you were contributing to a traditional IRA instead, it would matter: Your contributions to last year’s IRA would count for a tax deduction on last year’s tax return (hence being able to contribute up until Tax Day). But with a Roth IRA, you aren’t taking a tax deduction, so you’ll pay your full tax on the contribution no matter in which year you make it.

Always Contribute to Last Year’s IRA First

Now we come to my suggestion to contribute as much as you can to last year’s IRA before switching to this year’s (aka roll forward contribution room), either because you have reached your contribution limit or because Tax Day has passed.

The advantage is most clearly seen in the year that you experience an increased ability to contribute to your IRA (as long as you haven’t been maxing out your contribution room). This could happen because:

You decrease your expenses so that you can save more
You start earning a side income
You finish your PhD and take a higher-paying position (postdoc or Real Job)
You finish your postdoc and get a Real Job

In these cases, you may be able and want to contribute more than $6,000 to your IRA in one calendar year, and you are only able to do that if you split the contribution between your prior year IRA and your current year IRA.

But you should practice this every year, not just in a year when you expect an increased ability to contribute because:

You don’t know what will happen throughout the whole next calendar year, and your ability to contribute to an IRA could increase unexpectedly (e.g., you receive a windfall, a side income presents itself, you decide to leave grad school/your postdoc early for a better-paying job, you combine finances with a higher-earning person).
You can roll forward your contribution room into future years. For instance, if you can contribute $5,000 each calendar year to an IRA, you can carry forward some or all of your $1,000 excess contribution room, so that in the year that you are able to contribute more, for example, you can contribute $6,000 to your current year IRA and perhaps $1,000 to your prior year IRA.

An Illustration (with Numbers!)

The advantage of this strategy is more easily understood with an example.

Let’s say you’re a graduate student in 2020 and 2021, earning $30,000 per year. You are a superstar saver, so you contribute 12% of your gross income to your Roth IRA every month. In 2020, your total contribution to your 2020 Roth IRA was $3,600.

In the first five months of 2021, you continue to contribute to your 2020 Roth IRA, which brings your 2020 Roth IRA contributions up to $5,100. In the seven remaining calendar months of 2021, you contribute $2,100 to your 2021 Roth IRA. Your remaining contribution room for 2021 is $3,900.

January 2022 hits and you start a Real Job! Your new yearly salary is $72,000, and you increase your savings rate to 20%. This means that you can put $1,200 each month into your retirement account(s).

In the first four months of 2022, you max out your 2021 Roth IRA with $3,900 and also put $900 into your 2022 Roth IRA or other retirement account options. You can use the rest of 2022 to max out your 2022 Roth IRA and contribute to your other retirement account options.

In this example, you ended up contributing $17,100 to your Roth IRA over three years ($5,100 in 2020, $6,000 in 2021, and $6,000 in 2022). Had you not rolled forward your contribution room, you would have contributed only $13,200 to your Roth IRA ($3,600 in each of 2020 and 2021 and $6,000 in 2022). (The rest of the money would go into your other retirement account options in 2021, presumably.)

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The Psychology of a Ceiling

The previous illustration assumed that you would save at the same rate no matter what contribution room you had available or what account you used. However, if you are a competitive person, you might benefit even more from rolling forward your contribution room by contributing to your prior year Roth IRA first.

I’ve noticed that many people strive to max our their Roth IRAs each year, irrespective of the actual amount or percentage they might otherwise want to save. They use the contribution limit as their goal. This is not a good thing if you would otherwise contribute more than the limit, but I think many grad students and postdocs might have the opposite issue: without the limit serving as an implicit goal, they might contribute less than the limit.

By rolling forward your contribution room, you can create ever-higher savings rate goals for your Roth IRA, which might modify your behavior and help you save even more overall.

I fell victim (in a good way!) to this psychology in a similar scenario. When I started contributing to my Roth IRA, my goal was 10% ($2,400) per year. But once I found out that my now-husband maxed his Roth IRA out every year, I made keeping up with him and maxing out my goal, too. I found creative ways to gradually increase my savings rate. I didn’t quite make it to $5,500/year (the contribution limit at the time) by the end of graduate school, but I sure got a lot closer than $2,400/year.

I think the contribution limit can create the same kind of competitiveness, and rolling forward your contribution room makes the challenge even greater.

My Personal Experience with Contributing to Prior Year Roth IRAs

A couple years before we finished our PhDs, my husband and I started following this suggestion of contributing to our prior year Roth IRAs as much as possible before switching to our current year Roth IRAs. It seemed not to matter much for a couple years until we experienced an income increase, and then having the extra contribution room was really helpful.

My husband’s Real Job offered a 401(k), but it was through a notoriously expensive full-service brokerage firm, which we did not want to use. Instead, we contributed our target amount of savings to our Roth IRAs (still maxing out the prior year first) and a self-employment retirement account (available through my business). The extra Roth IRA contribution room we created through rolling forward was particularly helpful in the transition year because 1) it took some time to figure out our 401(k) and self-employment retirement account options and 2) my contribution room in my self-employment retirement account wasn’t very high after working on the business for only a few months.

Further reading: Avoiding an Expensive 401(k) Plan through Self-Employment

How to Successfully Plan for Retirement Before and After Obtaining Your PhD

April 8, 2019 by Jewel Lipps

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Brandon Renfro, a finance professor and financial advisor. Brandon shares the tortuous path that led him to his current faculty position at East Texas Baptist University and side business in retirement advising. They discuss the long-term financial effects of doing a PhD – both positive and negative – and how to have a successful retirement even if you can’t save (much) during your PhD training.

Links mentioned in episode

0:00 Introduction

1:05 Please Introduce Yourself

Dr. Brandon Renfro has a PhD in Finance. He is both an academic and a practitioner. He advises retirement advising for individuals. He does financial planning while being a tenure track professor.

2:02 What was your career trajectory?

Brandon says that he “walked backwards” or stumbled into his PhD. As an undergraduate, he planned to go to law school. He was advised to major in business in preparation for law school. He took an American enterprise course and saw a presentation about the time value of money in the retirement planning context. This presentation inspired him, so he majored in finance and loved it. He went to law school but says he crashed and burned. He was in the military and had GI bill benefits. He decided to use his GI bill benefits for an Master of Business Administration (MBA). He asked his MBA advisor about adjunct teaching. He had to have 18 graduate hours in the discipline to teach a course. He discovered he loved teaching. He decided he wanted to teach full time. He feels fortunate that he got a tenure track position at a liberal arts college in Louisiana, where he worked for three semesters. Now he is in his third semester at East Texas Baptist.

Emily points out that Brandon tried stuff and saw what stuck. Brandon agrees that this is important to explain to students today. He says many students set a goal and stick to it no matter what, even if the path isn’t right for them. He says there is a time when you should recognize if you don’t love what you’re doing and you should try something different. Brandon says he would tell his 18 year old self to major in finance, but at the time it didn’t occur to him.

Emily asks how Brandon handled the sunk costs of going to law school. Brandon clarifies that he didn’t meet the GPA requirements to continue law school but he wasn’t sad about it. He says he was miserable in law school. He had taken out loans to pay for the year in law school. He says it was $20,000 that he spent to learn that he didn’t want to be an attorney. He says if he looks at it like it’s money he spent to learn that he loves being a finance professor, it was worth it.

7:47 Given that a person has decided to do a PhD and maybe a postdoc, what are the effects of their financial outlook?

Emily starts by explaining that graduate students, postdocs, and early career PhDs have a lot of anxiety around saving for retirement. Most of these people are in their 20s or 30s and they know they are supposed to be investing for retirement. But planning for retirement feels overwhelming in the context of their competing financial demands, like student loan payments or saving for a house down payment, coupled with their suppressed income for an extended period of time.

Brandon says that if you put off starting a career to do a PhD, this will make saving and preparing for retirement a little more challenging. These are foregone years of savings. However, academics have the ability to work past typical retirement age. As a professor, you can work longer and save money for retirement for more years, even if you start work and start saving a little later in life. Emily clarifies that PhDs can add years on the back end, instead of on the front end, to the total years that they can work to save for retirement. PhDs can do this because their work is fairly intellectual, and hopefully they get better with time. It’s less daunting to add years at the end in these career paths than others. Brandon says it’s (physically) easier to talk about what you know than it is to work on a factory floor, and you can prolong the years you do this kind of work. Even as PhDs reach retirement age, they have options to be an instructor, lecturer, adjunct, or consultant. You can work less than a full time load, and still capitalize on your years of experience.

Brandon says even while you’re working in your 30s or 40s, you have the ability to leverage expertise outside the classroom. Even if you are working a full time tenure track position, you have a lot of knowledge that you can leverage in industry, even while you’re teaching. Emily shares that when she was an engineering PhD student at Duke University, she saw plenty of professors had consulting businesses or wrote books. In academia, there are many ways to step outside your primary role and leverage your expertise. Emily says that there are plenty of opportunities to have side hustles all through your career. She is part of a community of self employed PhDs, and many people’s self employed job is on the side of their full time job. Brandon believes there is a lot of potential for academics to be self employed. He says even if you were the lowest ranked student in the lowest ranked PhD program, you still have knowledge and you are already part of a select group. Emily says any PhD can find a market where their skills are valuable. They give examples of formatting and copy-editing and tutoring.

17:13 How can someone handle the income jump after the suppressed income period of being a trainee in a PhD or postdoc?

Brandon says in one phrase, avoid “lifestyle creep.” When you suddenly go from an undergraduate or PhD student lifestyle based on lower income to receiving a full time income, you need to be mindful to not immediately start living at the new income. He says you don’t need to be extremely frugal, but use a moderate amount of your new income to build your emergency savings, pay down consumer debt, and pay down student loans in order to be much better off in the long run.

Emily shares the standard personal finance advice to commit a large percentage of your raise to your financial goals. Either all of the raise or as much of the raise as you can, put it towards goals instead of your consumption spending. She says it applies even more when you have a large income jump. Most of it should be used to accelerate financial goals. When Emily and her husband finished their PhD programs, they applied this concept to their new “real jobs” income. They had several financial goals that they focused on and avoided lifestyle creep.

Brandon shares his story about buying a house. He was unsure where he would get his tenure track position, but he wanted to build equity without committing his family to a large mortgage payment. He bought a small rent house before they bought a house to live in. Emily brings up that some people rent their properties as they move, in contrast to how Brandon purchased the property purely as a rental property.

23:40 Grad students and some postdocs don’t pay into the social security system. What are the long term effects of missing out on these years of contributions?

Brandon explains that social security benefits are based on 35 years of covered earnings. Essentially, it’s an average of your highest 35 years of earnings. If you’re starting to contribute later, do the math. If you’re in your early 30s, you may be in your late 60s before you have 35 years of covered earnings. The issue is that your benefit will be calculated with some zeros in the 35 year average, which skews down your average. When you’re on the back end of your career, this may influence your decision to work for a few more years to replace some of the years where you contributed zero dollars to social security.

26:59 What steps can someone who’s in or recently been in PhD training do to mitigate negative effects of lower income and not contributing to retirement?

Brandon brings up the psychological benefit of being used to living on a small income. He says to continue to live like that for a couple of years so that you can build yourself a financial cushion and start saving for retirement. He says eventually the feeling goes away and you get used to the new level of income. Psychologically, it’s harder to start saving for financial goals later.

Emily says that this is classic personal finance advice. Sometimes the lifestyles of PhD students are lower than those of college students. She says it’s difficult to deflate lifestyle. You might see the higher paycheck from your first real job, then you lock yourself into higher housing costs or buy a new car. It’s difficult to take a step back, but it’s much easier to keep a similar lifestyle and put the new income to your financial goals and slowly work up your lifestyle.

30:16 If a person starts saving during graduate school, what kind of effect can that have on retirement?

Brandon explains the first presentation that he saw on the effect of compound interest. If you started when you were 18 years old and you saved just $2,000 per year in a retirement account, you would have a million dollars for retirement if you simply earned the average market return. He says the same is still true if you start at 30 or 32, but there are a few less years for compounding to take effect.

Emily says that even during graduate school, saving a couple hundred dollars a month is accessible. It’s not a thousand dollars every month that you need to save. The earlier you take these steps, the more and more impact it can make. It really does make a difference to take these steps earlier.

Brandon adds that at least, don’t make negative steps. Buying a cheaper car or cheaper clothes can go a long way. Emily says that the professional students, like law students, were living a higher lifestyle even though they were living on loans. She says the smallest amount of debt that you have to take on during training will make it easier for you in a few years.

35:50 What do you do for clients?

Brandon can help with anything within realm of retirement planning. He can help someone starting out. He can help graduate students and postdocs sort through their different options for retirement plans. He can help with decisions about how to invest within retirement plans. Brandon encourages you to take retirement very seriously and to think very hard about putting off retirement. He says it’s really hard to make a strong case against contributing to a plan with an employer match. He says employer match is essentially free money. Emily says an employer match is a 50% or 100% return on investment.

Emily clarifies that someone looking at different options can ask Brandon for help considering which option to prioritize. Brandon can help overcome “analysis paralysis.” Brandon says something is almost always better than nothing, and you need to just do something. He encourages you to envision your retirement and what your financial goal looks like.

40:03 Final Comments

Brandon’s contact information is at brandonrenfro.com. If anyone has a question about something that he hasn’t published an article about on his website, send him an email and he will write about it!

41:15 Conclusion

How to Financially Manage Your NSF Graduate Research Fellowship

April 5, 2019 by Emily

Congratulations on being awarded the National Science Foundation (NSF) Graduate Research Fellowship (GRF) (or a similar remunerative, competitive, national fellowship)! Whether you’re a prospective grad student or a current first- or second-year PhD student, this fellowship is a great boon to your research, your CV, and almost certainly your finances. However, you may not yet realize that your finances will become a bit tricky once you start receiving your fellowship. With the help of this article, you can avoid the pitfalls associated with fellowship income and fully capitalize on the benefits.

Further listening: The Financial and Career Opportunities Available to National Science Foundation Graduate Research Fellows

The NSF GRFP’s Negotiation Power

I’m sure you didn’t miss this headline info about the NSF GRFP: The fellowship pays you a stipend of $34,000 plus $12,000 of educational expenses to your institution for three years. Awesome! At the majority of universities in the US, that stipend amount is well above what you would be paid if you didn’t receive the fellowship, so you’ve effectively achieved a raise for the next three years.

But the good news doesn’t stop there: Your university/department might confer even more benefits upon you for winning independent funding. If the administration isn’t forthcoming about these additional benefits, it is appropriate to inquire about them.

Independence

Your new outside funding may give you a degree of independence in your research that you wouldn’t otherwise enjoy. This is highly dependent on your field, department, and advisor, but the fellowship may enable you to take your doctoral research in a direction that you advisor couldn’t or wouldn’t have supported without it. Perhaps you could take a risk on a side project, establish a new collaboration, or take extra time to rotate through a lab to gain new skills.

Additional Funding

At many universities, there is a standard offer of additional funding for winning a multi-year, lucrative fellowship like the NSF. This offer could come in one or more forms, such as:

A guarantee of funding for additional years
A one-time bonus
A stipend supplement above $34,000 while you have the fellowship
A stipend supplement after the fellowship concludes (e.g., up to $34,000/year for your remaining time in graduate school)

Not all departments offer additional funding to NSF GRFP recipients, but it’s worth inquiring about with your advisor, the administration, and current NSF fellows at your university. Stipend supplements during the time that you receive the NSF GRF are more common in high cost-of-living cities where the departmental base stipend is near $34,000/year to begin with. For example, searching “NSF” in the PhD Stipends database reveals stipend supplements awarded during the NSF GRFP years to students at the University of California at Berkeley, Northwestern University, and Columbia University, while a student at the University of California at San Diego writes that he/she received no funding incentive for winning the NSF GRF.

For Prospective Graduate Students

You’ll never have more negotiation power than you do as a prospective graduate student with an outside fellowship in hand. Unfortunately, you don’t have a lot of time to negotiate as the NSF GRFP awards list comes out approximately two weeks before grad school decision day, April 15.

Further reading: Vote with Your Feet, Prospective Graduate Students

As quickly as possible, you need to clarify if the offers from the universities you are still considering are going to be sweetened at all now that you have your fellowship. If the financial package from your preferred university isn’t up to par with your other offers (after considering cost of living differences), you can tactfully ask if a bonus, stipend supplement, or guarantee of future funding is possible.

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Budgeting with Your Fellowship Income

There are two vital questions you need to ask of your department before you can begin creating a budget for your NSF GRF stipend.

After the fellowship ends, what will my stipend be?
How frequently is my fellowship disbursed?

Accelerate Progress on Financial Goals

In my ideal personal finance-oriented world, an NSF fellow would live on (less than) the base stipend from his department and put all the excess income received toward growing his wealth. There are a few advantages to that approach:

Your lifestyle roughly matches that of your peers in your department.
You can relatively quickly achieve financial goals such as saving or debt repayment.
If your income is set to drop once the fellowship ends, you avoid acclimation to the higher, temporary income and don’t have to make major lifestyle sacrifices once the three years are up.

Some financial goals you could work on during the time you receive the additional fellowship funds are:

Eliminating any troublesome debt (e.g., credit card balances, medical debt, car loan)
Saving up cash for short-term needs and expenses (e.g., emergency fund, targeted savings accounts)
Investing for long- and mid-term goals (e.g., retirement, house down payment)
Pay down student loans

Further reading:

This strategy is easiest to implement for graduate students who start the NSF GRF after one or more years in grad school. Just put all of your ‘raise’ toward financial goals and don’t change anything about your lifestyle! Prospective grad students will have to be more conscious about setting up their grad student lifestyle on a lower income than they will start out with.

Preparing for the Post-Fellowship Income Drop

If you choose to upgrade your lifestyle with your fellowship stipend, be careful to maintain any long-term financial contracts at a level that will be sustainable for you after your income drops (if it will). The two key areas to watch out for are housing and transportation expenses. While it is possible to reduce your spending in either of these areas during grad school, it is a painful process, so it is preferable to lock in your spending in those areas at a level that you can maintain long-term.

Budgeting with an Irregular Income

Sometimes, fellowships are disbursed to the recipient at a frequency other than monthly, e.g., once per term. This schedule can cause issues for budgeting, which is usually framed as turning over each month.

One of the advantages of an infrequent disbursement schedule is that you are paid at the beginning of the period rather than the end, so the money you need throughout the period is already available to you. However, you may not be able/inclined to use typical budgeting software functions and prefer to set up your own budgeting system.

One of the most useful budgeting concepts for people with irregular incomes is that of fixed vs. variable expenses. At the beginning of your budgeting period, project the fixed expenses that will be paid during the period, such as your rent/mortgage, debt payments, certain utilities, subscriptions, etc. Then allocate your remaining income to your variable expenses at a frequency that is convenient for you. For example, you can estimate the variable utility bills that you may pay monthly during the period, plan to spend no more than a certain amount of money each week on groceries, and give yourself a lump sum of money for entertainment for the entire period to be spent as opportunities arise. In this way, allocate your fellowship disbursement so that you are sure that your expenses won’t exceed your income (leaving some buffer for unexpected expenses).

Income Tax Implications of the NSF GRFP

Your NSF GRFP stipend is subject to federal income tax. (It is usually subject to state and local income tax as well, but there are some exceptions.)

Further reading:

However, the taxation of fellowship stipends is handled completely differently by universities than assistantship pay.

Tax Reporting

While assistantship pay is reported on a W-2, fellowship stipends are not required to be reported in any particular way.

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A large fraction of universities, possibly the majority, do not report outside fellowship stipends on any official tax form. At most, the fellow might receive a courtesy letter, which is an informal letter stating the amount of the fellowship stipend received during the calendar year.

Some universities report fellowship stipends on Form 1098-T in Box 5 (along with other scholarship and grant income).

A small minority of universities report fellowship stipends on Form 1099-MISC in Box 3.

Whatever reporting mechanism used or not used, the important information to bring to your tax return preparation process is the amount of fellowship stipend paid to you during the calendar year. From that point, the fellowship stipend income is treated the same as any other fellowship/scholarship/grant income, and (possibly after some adjustments) it will ultimately be taxed as ordinary income.

Further reading:

Quarterly Estimated Tax

While you are required to pay federal and usually state income tax on your fellowship stipend, the vast majority of universities do not offer automatic income tax withholding on your fellowship stipend as they normally do for employee pay. (You should inquire whether automatic withholding is an option and use it if so, but the remainder of this section assumes it is not offered.)

This means that you will receive 100% of your gross fellowship stipend instead of your stipend net of income tax as you would assistantship pay. However, the IRS still expects to receive income tax payments throughout the year, so you will have to look into filing quarterly estimated tax.

Further reading: The Complete Guide to Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients

As a default position, you should assume you are responsible for paying quarterly estimated tax. It’s possible that you won’t be required to in the year you switch on or off of the fellowship or if you’re married to someone with a high income and high withholding, but even in those cases it’s prudent to check.

The way you calculate your quarterly estimated tax due (and figure out if it’s required of you) is by filling out Form 1040-ES. That form will give you the amount of the payment you are supposed to make four times per year and an estimate of your total tax due for the year. You can make the payment online at IRS.gov/payments or through a host of other mechanisms.

Whether or not you are required to file quarterly estimated tax, it’s a great idea to set up a personal system that simulates automatic tax withholding. Open a separate savings account labeled “Income Tax” and transfer in the fraction of each paycheck you receive that you ultimately expect to pay in tax each time you are paid. Then, draw from that savings account when you make your quarterly or yearly tax payments.

Investing Implications of the NSF GRFP

The upside of receiving the NSF GRF is that your income is most likely higher than it would have been, which means you have an increased ability to achieve financial goals during graduate school such as debt repayment, saving, and/or investing.

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Through 2019, fellowship income, like that of the GRFP, was not eligible to be contributed to an Individual Retirement Arrangement (IRA). However, starting with tax year 2020, fellowship income is eligible to be contributed to an IRA, eliminating the only major downside of receiving fellowship income.

Further listening: Fellowship Income Is Now Eligible to Be Contributed to an IRA!

An IRA is a tax-advantaged retirement savings vehicle. It’s a great idea to use an IRA (or other tax-advantaged retirement vehicle such as a 401(k) or 403(b)) for your retirement savings as it helps you maximize your long-term rate of return by protecting your investments from taxes. As a graduate student, you almost certainly don’t have access to the university 403(b), so the IRA is basically the only game in town for tax-advantaged retirement savings.

Further reading:

Making Ends Meet on a Graduate Student Stipend in Los Angeles

March 25, 2019 by Jewel Lipps

In this episode, Emily interviews Adriana Sperlea, a PhD student in computational biology at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA). Living in Los Angeles is financially challenging to say the least, and Adriana has found ways to improve her cash flow over time, such as by doing a summer internship, moving into subsidized graduate housing, living car-free, and budgeting intensively. She has even recently started contributing to a Roth IRA! Adriana and Emily additionally discuss how Adriana discovered that she owed a large tax bill on her fellowship income and how she paid those back taxes and started paying quarterly estimated tax.

Links mentioned in episode

Teaser

Adriana (00:00): I tell everyone, I, I’ve told people in my lab being like, no, you have to do this. It’s simple and it’s easy, and it can help you a lot.

Introduction

Emily (00:15): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhD’s podcast, A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Emily Roberts. This is season two, episode six, and today my guest is Adriana Sperlea, a PhD student at UCLA. Adriana shares her detailed budgeting process, how she keeps her expenses in Los Angeles in check, and what a difference doing an internship made in her financial life. We also discussed the mistake she made with her taxes while receiving a fellowship and how she got that aspect of her financial life back on track. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Adriana Sperlea. I’m welcoming to the podcast episode today, Adriana, who is joining us from, uh, Los Angeles. She’s a graduate student at UCLA, and in today’s episode, we’re covering budgeting, you know, the big challenge of living in a high cost of living area on a grad student stipend. Um, she’s doing really well with this, and she’ll tell us all about her process and what financial goals she’s able to accomplish, and then also about something that happened in her second year of graduate school, which is a big, uh, financial mishap, financial challenge that she had to overcome. And we’re talking about how to, one, not let that happen to you, and two, if something big like that does happen, how to work through it and how to recover from it. So that’s a subject for, um, today’s episode. So Adriana, thank you so much for joining me today.

Please Introduce Yourself

Adriana (01:40): Yeah, hi. It’s great to be here.

Emily (01:43): Uh, so first question right off the bat is, you know, just take a moment to introduce yourself to us, where you are, what you’re studying, and so forth.

Adriana (01:50): Yeah, so my name’s Adriana. I, um, go to UCLA for graduate school. I’m in the bioinformatics program there, uh, which is actually an interdepartmental program, so we don’t have our own department, uh, which sometimes causes all, like, funding gets complicated also. Um, yeah, and I live in Los Angeles. Um, I’m, and I’m actually an international student, so I’m originally from Romania, uh, which also adds a wrinkle to the funding situation.

Emily (02:15): Yeah. Okay, great. Um, and so what, what are you making there? What is your stipend?

Adriana (02:20): Yeah, so, um, we’re, I’m pretty fortunate. We’re in a fully funded program. The stipend is 30, around $32,500 a year, I think it is now. It goes up a little bit every year with inflation and stuff. Um, and so that’s before tax, like after tax, it comes out to about 28,000 a year, I think. Um, which what I know is that every year I get, every month I get $2,400 into my bank account.

Emily (02:45): Okay. And how long have you been there?

Adriana (02:47): So this is my fifth year, that I’ve been here for.

How do you live within your means in Los Angeles?

Emily (02:51): Okay, great. You have long experience then, um in Los Angeles. So, um, right off the bat, you know, when, when we were prepping for this episode, I know about you that you live, uh, within your stipend, you live within your means, you’re not having, you know, loans and so forth coming out for you. And so, um, why did you do that during graduate school? Because I think some people might look at living in LA and living on, you know, 30 some thousand dollars a year and say like, oh gosh, this is gonna be really, really tough. I’m gonna need some extra support from here or there. Um, so why, why did you per not not pursue any of those routes?

Adriana (03:31): So, um, it basically wasn’t really an option for me to pursue those routes. Um, a I don’t have any extra support from my family, um, just because they can’t really afford it, and they’re also far away from me. They’re still back in Romania. Um, and because I’m an international student, I can’t actually take out loans. Um, I, there’s some small private loans that I could probably qualify for now after a few years, but at least in the beginning of my graduate school for sure no. Um, so that was kind of, yeah. Um, the only way I could supplement my income and I did, um, it was actually through, um, internships. So I did do an internship, um, in between my, uh, after my third year of graduate school. But yeah, that was the only extra income, otherwise it would be extremely illegal for me to work, um, federally illegal, so I would get potentially deported. So yeah.

Emily (04:18): Yeah, I noticed that, um, you know, I, I talk a lot about side incomes and stuff and, and to some extent I know that debt is an option, uh, for domestic graduate students. But the thing is that like, if you’re in a tight situation, like some places, some programs, they just plain are not paying enough, and it’s really the international students that are in the hardest squeeze because they have no, as you said, legal, other options out of this. Like, there’s no other way to work, there’s no way to get access to these loans, like that is it, that’s the end of the story. And so I really think that in, in some cases, domestic students can learn a lot from international students on how to make things work because their back is really up against the wall, um, more so than domestic students. So I wanna hear a little, a tiny bit more about this internship, um, so in that year that you, the summer that you did the internship, were you, like, did your grad student stipend stop and you were instead paid through the internship, or did you get like both or how did it work?

Adriana (05:17): Yeah, so I actually got both, but that’s a corner case, like that’s not how it usually works. Um, other people in my program have done internships, and I think depending on when your, where your funding is coming from, most of the time your other funding stops and you just get your internship. Um, in my case, I was on this training grant that, um, encourages, I think it’s actually a requirement of the training grant to do an internship, um, because it’s called Biomedical Big Data Training Grant. So they want to do an internship where you actually explore using big data in the biomedical field, yada, yada. So it’s actually part of the training grant, so they keep paying you. Um, so I got my training grant. I didn’t get, the training grant was actually supplemented by a little bit of a graduate student researcher funding. Um, I didn’t get that part, but I was still getting that and my income from the internship. And I was living in San Diego, which was slightly cheaper than Los Angeles, so that helped too. <laugh>.

Emily (06:08): Yeah. Cool. Okay. So did you actually like sublet your place in Los Angeles for the summer?

Adriana (06:13): Um, so I was living with my boyfriend at the time. Um, so he kept paying. I, I kept paying. Did I pay? It was a little bit ago. I think we had, yeah, I stopped paying half of my rent, I think my half of the rent here. Um, and then, yeah, I subleted a place in San Diego.

Emily (06:29): Yeah. So it’s good that you had the double income because you had the double rent <laugh> for a little while. Yes. Yeah, that can be really tough when you do have to move for just a short, a short period of time. Yeah. Um, okay.

What is your approach to budgeting in Los Angeles?

Emily (06:41): But you had, through that period, I would imagine already this effective like, budgeting system in place. So for, for making it work, for making it on your stipend with no other kind of outside income sources, um, yeah. How, how do you budget? Tell us about your system.

Adriana (06:58): Yeah, so I mean, I think even before budgeting, there’s like kind of the more basic thing where like you kind of have to figure out housing that’s like the first order of priority in LA and it’s hard, but there are ways, I mean, currently for example, I’m in a situation where I’m in graduate student housing that’s subsidized. So it’s actually really affordable. Um, but not, there’s not enough for everyone. So it’s not a, not all graduate students get it. So making it work with roommates, like finding the roommates, like hustling on Craigslist, finding the right deals, like you have to shop around a lot. Um, but there are still ways to find something that can kind of fit in that, like desirable percentage of your income. Maybe. Like, I, I don’t think 30% is feasible in Los Angeles <laugh>. Um, it’ll still probably go up to like 40%, but still, um, yeah, making it work.

Emily (07:47): Well, I would like to hear a little bit more about that one, about the subsidized housing, and then two, just about your, when you’re hustling, when you’re hustling on Craigslist, what are you looking for? How do you find those deals? Because I mean, Los Angeles is a huge city. We’ve got a lot of universities there. I’m sure there are some local people who wanna hear about this because it’s such a problem. And then it will also translate well, I think, to other high cost of living cities. So tell me a little bit more about the, the subsidized housing through UCLA. Like how do you get into it?

Adriana (08:14): So that’s a, that the subsidized housing is a lottery based system. Um, so you just apply and then when someone moves out, they let someone off the wait list in, and I think there’s some random component to it. I don’t really, know, there’s not a, I don’t know exactly how that process works, but you get an email if you got it. So, and you celebrate.

Emily (08:31): Are you allowed to stay as long as you would like? Or is there a cap on it?

Adriana (08:35): So in the one that I’m currently in, yes. Um, well, no, not, I think it’s nine, seven years, seven or eight years, basically, as long as hopefully you don’t need more than that, so, yeah. Um, but it is month to month, so people sometimes will move out, like not, not at the beginning of a year. Um, and then anyone can take their spot. So, yeah. Um, the, it, it’s actually a great system, but it’s just not enough of it. And I’ve, I’ve talked a lot at UCLA trying to push, um, more housing, more affordable housing for students. It’s needed like Los Angeles, it’s impossible. So

Emily (09:06): How much of a discount are you getting? Like how much is the subsidy?

Adriana (09:10): Uh, well it’s, it’s not like percentage based, but it’s, it’s subsidizing that it is cheaper. So, uh, a one bedroom, we have like a junior one bedroom. It’s me and my fiance now living in it. Um, and we pay, uh, 30, around 1300 for the whole place. So split, I pay like $650 for, for rent, which is amazing for LA.

Emily (09:31): Yeah, 650 sounds like pretty good for a lot of cities around the country. Yeah. So a junior, one bedroom. Okay. Yeah. So it helps certainly if you have someone that you’re willing to share a bedroom with.

Adriana (09:43): Yes, a hundred percent. So that may be, if you have a significant other, then that’s a lot easier. I’ll be honest, I’ve talked to people in grad school that talk about like the advantages of having a partner in terms of rent <laugh>, um, but then also you can share a bedroom. I mean, it’s not ideal as a graduate student. You don’t want to be sharing a bedroom, but if you need to make it work because there’s no other money share a bedroom like that, that can be the case. Yeah.

Emily (10:08): Yeah. I just actually ran into someone, um, not ran into, someone attended a seminar of mine a couple days ago and she said, yep, I live in a, I share a bedroom with my roommate. That is still a thing that is happening, like to make her her budget work. So it’s not, it’s not totally unheard of, not totally out of the question. Okay. I totally agree with you. You have to get that housing component kind of set, and that’s something around which a, a lot of the rest of your budget will, will be determined. Um, yeah. So is there anything else like that? Is housing the one expense that you need to fix first? Or like, what about transportation? Did you figure that out before really working on your budget?

Adriana (10:43): So I mean, housing and transportation are probably the two big ones. Um, I don’t own a car. Um, so for me it’s like you can pay a little more for rent because I don’t own the cars. I don’t have car costs like insurance and all that, or parking. And so I can live a little closer and not have the car. You can have the car that’s more cost, but you might be able to get cheaper rent. So that’s kind of a balance, I feel like. Um, I mean, if also if you’re somewhere that has public transit, then you, your problems are way easier. But in LA it’s kind of the trade off between car and, um, housing. Yeah.

Emily (11:13): Yeah. Okay. So you live car free. That’s awesome. I love that.

Adriana (11:16): Well, so my fiance does have a car now, so

Emily (11:18): Oh, okay. So you’re sort of, you sort of share a car.

Adriana (11:20): Yes, now I do. Yeah. But I didn’t have one for a very long time,

Emily (11:24): So I, I forgot that I wanted to go back to this, um, this idea of how can you find like, affordable housing? Do you have any tips about that?

Adriana (11:33): Um, yeah, I mean, honestly, a lot of it’s just like spending time and looking around and eventually you’ll find kind of these offers that are not as common. Um, there are in LA there the, there’s this one type of building in LA in particular, I forget what they’re called, but basically they’re like older houses that are honestly like, not earthquake proof, <laugh>, um, they’re the <inaudible> build. They have like a carport underneath. Um, and those, because they’re not retrofitted and they tend to have like slightly older furniture and like the AC is like not super up to date and stuff like that, they tend to go for a little less. And occasionally in some areas there is rent control. So if you can get into a place that has the rent control, then your rent at least won’t go up. Um, so there’s various hacks like that, and it’s all about just like having patience and kind of starting early on the housing search. Um, but I do know that it’s getting harder every year. So yeah, there’s, there’s only so much you can do with that, to be perfectly honest. Like, I don’t wanna like claim that it’s, I have some amazing magic for finding housing because it’s just tough.

Emily (12:37): Yeah. So you’re just saying be patient, um, sort of target, you know, types of buildings that you know, are gonna be less expensive. Yeah, I’m a little concerned about this not being earthquake proof thing, <laugh>. Um,

Adriana (12:50): It’s the truth. That’s how it, I mean, yeah, I don’t know if that like, it’s a good thing to say that you should live somewhere that’s not retrofitted, but I do know those apartments are not well retrofitted. It’s a common thing. And that’s why I think they’re going, a lot of them are being like, replaced by newer developments. Um, but yeah, there’s, I mean, maybe don’t live somewhere that you don’t feel safe, of course. But, um, there, you know, you can definitely sacrifice on things like granite countertops, <laugh>, or the open space. You know, like you’re not gonna get, um, something beautiful, but you can get something livable and clean for, um, more affordable.

What is the system that you use for budgeting?

Emily (13:27): Yeah. Okay. So, okay, so let’s return to the, the budgeting, um. System that you used. I, I’d love to hear more about just how you make it work overall. Once, once you’ve gotten this rent and then like your decision about transportation in place.

Adriana (13:40): Yeah. So I’ve had, for a very long time I had this like spreadsheet system where I would put in my income that comes in every month and I would separate it. I would put in my fixed costs, like the rent that has to be paid and my bills, like my phone bill, um, whatever other bills you have that are just monthly, like if you have a gym membership, if you have other bills, et cetera. Um, if you have to pay for insurance, I guess you have a car, you would have that there too. Um, and then I split whatever is, I did sub subtract that from my monthly income and then I divided into four. Um, ’cause there’s like four weeks in a month. And then whenever I buy something, I entered it, I entered in my spreadsheet and I have a cell that subtracts that from my weekly budget.

Adriana (14:22): Um, and so I always have a sense kind of like, of what I’m spending. Um, and I try, so for me, I, I notice, I think, I think it’s common from a lot of grad students that eating out tends to drive your budget up a lot. Like if you don’t cook your own meals, like that’s gonna be a big expense. Um, so for me it’s all about just, you know, buying my, making sure I buy my groceries on the weekend and kind of prep some type of food and make sure I’m cooking my meals. And if my meals are cooked and I’m on top of that, then I pretty much don’t spend anything Monday through Friday, to be honest. ’cause I just go into lab. I eat lunch that I brought from home and then I come back home. So there’s not a lot of expenses. And so then by the end of the, on the weekend, you still have like a hundred something dollars to work with that. Um, you can, you know, you can go see a movie, you can go out, you can do something.

Emily (15:09): I’ll just recap that for a second. ’cause I wanna make sure I, I really like what I’m hearing. I wanna make sure I understand. So, so you take your, your total monthly income, and then you subtract out all of your, basically your monthly bills. They’re often fixed expenses. Maybe there’s some variable in there, like some utilities or something. I dunno if any of your utilities are variable, but, so you’re subtracting out all those monthly bills and then you take the remainder and you divide it up by the week. And so you have your, your sort of, uh, discretionary or variable spending money for each week, and you start that week by buying your food, your groceries for the week. And you basically just are living sort of a, uh, a lifestyle where you don’t spend much during the week. Like, you know, you’re not, you’re not buying gas, you just said you don’t have a car. You’re not eating out during the week, you’re presumably not doing any entertainment stuff so that when you get to the following weekend, you know, you have, you know, the amount of money you have to work with, uh, in terms of being able to do some discretionary stuff, some fun stuff, um, eating out or entertainment or bar or what have you. Does that sound, is that, yeah.

Adriana (16:08): That’s pretty much it. Yeah. And then, I mean, there’s, you know, you wanna have a little bit of room. I have, I actually have a little bit of money set aside for like, things that come up, you know, like things can come up, so you can’t always anticipate that, like the miscellaneous stuff. Um, but yeah, that’s pretty much how it works. And I mean, um, the other thing is like if I have, I see something that I wanna buy, right? That’s just like something I want that’s fun. I want this new pair of jeans, or I want this, I don’t know, whatever it is. Um, like for example, a new part for my gaming computer, something like that, right? Um, I will, I won’t buy it the moment I want it. I’ll make a list and then at the end of either the month or the week or whenever, after a while, I look at that list and then I go through it and kind of rank the things that I’ve I, that I’ve seen that are like, oh, I would really like to own this. And then the impulse part is out of it, right? So now I can make kind of a cool-headed decision about it and I can see where I’m at, how much can I actually afford? And then I can actually buy a few of those things.

Emily (17:08): Yeah, I love that. I love that idea. So you’re, you’re sort of formalizing the practice of delayed gratification. You have a centralized list that you’re using and you’re adding something catches your eye, you add it to it, and then after some days or maybe a full month or something, you’re reevaluating, do I really want that? Is it worth it? What’s the amount of money I have right now available to spend on it? Yeah, that sounds awesome.

What do you do about large expenses?

Emily (17:30): Um, what do you do about like, large expenses, like if you were to fly home?

Adriana (17:35): Yeah, so I mean, in this past year, because it’s been, um, my rent has gone down since I’ve moved into the subsidized housing, um, I’ve been able to have a little more leeway with that. So I usually have a little more extra money at the end of the month. Um, I have, since my internship, I’ve actually maintained this emergency fund, um, that’s about two or $3,000 in just a savings account that’s not, that I can still access whenever I want to. Um, so usually for big expenses like that, I’ll go into, it’s not really just an emergency fund, I guess it’s more of a big expenses that I, that are necessary though. Um, and I’ll, I’ll use from there and then I’ll gradually fill that back up, um, with money as I have extra during the month. Before that, um, before the internship where I did, I had this like extra money saved up. Um, it was pretty tough. Um, I didn’t go home that often, like all the way to Romania. Um, occasionally my mom would help with that, like she would help with the plane ticket. Um, but yeah, so it, it’s tough when big expenses come up.

Emily (18:47): Yeah, definitely. I mean, I like that you, I mean, it sounds like you had this, this one, one summer, only one summer where you did this internship, but because you were getting that dual pay, because the pay rate was a bit higher, it, it sort of gave your finances overall a boost plus the boost that you’re getting from the subsidized housing. And so kind of between those two, you’ve gotten a little bit ahead, right? You’re able to have this money set aside for kind of whatever comes up. It’s already there, you can draw on it and then refill it. Um, instead of being like, I don’t know, putting something on a credit card and then having to repay that over time, you’re sort of repaying yourself into your own savings.

Adriana (19:25): Yep.

Emily (19:25): Kind of like doing the debt, you know, process. So

Adriana (19:28): I’m super afraid of credit cards, actually <laugh>. So I have credit cards for maximizing like rewards and stuff like that, but I absolutely do not spend money on a credit card unless I have that money in checking like that liquid money. So, yeah.

Emily (19:41): Yeah, that’s perfect. I, I use, in grad school, I, I also was pretty afraid of credit cards for like, the first few years that I was like an adult. And I very strictly stuck to that system of, okay, the money is already in my bank account. I’m spending it just like I would if I were swiping my debit card, but I’m only doing this because I’m getting like extra rewards at the end of the day. I think there’s a healthy amount of fear right there. There’s a healthy level of fear that you can apply to credit cards. Maybe you can take it too far. And certainly some people are not afraid enough, but there’s like a sweet, you know, middle, middle there. Um, okay. Yeah. Is there anything else you wanna say about like, your budgeting or just how you’re making it work in la?

Any other comments about your budget or how you make it work in Los Angeles?

Adriana (20:21): One thing is that recently I have kinda like loosened the reins on how I budget, where I don’t maybe like log everything. Like I would log literally, oh, I bought coffee a dollar 50 into my Excel spreadsheet. I don’t do that anymore in the past year or so. Um, just ’cause you kind of get a sense of it after you’ve done it for a long time of what you can or cannot afford. So you don’t make silly purchases because you know what’s affordable and what’s not. Um, and I think that’s part of the learning system. Like you just, you learn that as you go. So

Emily (20:49): Yeah, you’ve sort of, you’ve internalized your budget. It’s now like in your mind instead of explicitly like in your spreadsheets.

Adriana (20:56): Yep, exactly.

Emily (20:57): Yeah. That’s nice. I, I think I, well, I never completely stopped tracking. I think I also internalized, um, my budget during grad school, but then everything got thrown when I moved. Right? If you go to a new city, you have a different life, different setup. Like you’re kind of, you’re not starting over at, you know, square one, but you’re taking a couple steps back in terms of that, that intuition or that like internalization, I think. So that’s a good time to start doing all the, you know, intensive tracking. Again, if there’s a big shift, you know, in your life.

Commercial

Emily (21:30): Do you know what’s even scarier than an upcoming committee meeting the prospect of preparing your tax return? But it doesn’t have to be that way. I’ve created a variety of free and paid resources to help you get through tax season with as little pain as possible. These resources are specifically for grad students and fellowship recipients postbac through postdoc, check them out at pfforphds.com/tax.

Can you talk about saving for retirement?

Emily (21:59): Okay. And you also told me earlier that you are saving for retirement, you’re contributing to an IRA. Can you tell me a little bit about why you’re doing that and how you’re doing that?

Adriana (22:09): Yeah. I’m not saving much. I’m not even maxing it out <laugh>. Um, but I am saving, so, um, about a year or so ago, I just, so my fiance’s uh, dad actually, he like talks a lot about, uh, investing and stuff like that. And I was like, on Thanksgiving, I was like, I, I need to figure that out. Like, can you tell me what you’re doing? Because you talk like there’s stocks that sounds super complicated. And he was like, all right, this is what you do. You go and you buy this book, it’s called A Random Walk Down Wall Street*, and you read it and then you got this. And that’s what I did. I bought the book and I read and I was like, oh, this is not at all complicated. Like, investing is not rocket science at all. Um, there’s just a weird culture around it that makes it sound complicated.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

Adriana (22:51): And I think people like to talk about it as if it’s something that’s just rocket science, but it’s totally not. It’s super easy and you can do it at like kind of a low risk. I’d say, um, if you want to, and also this is the best time in your life to do it because it doesn’t matter what, like, oh, the market is crashing, I don’t care. That’s a perfect time to buy more because I only have to have access to this money in like 60 years. So maybe not 60, but you know, like 40 years from now. So it’s actually really not stressful at all. I thought it would be super stressful of like, oh my God, now I have to worry about the market. But you really don’t. The best investment strategy when you’re, uh, our age is to just forget your password or something like that, you know, for your investment account and just don’t look at it.

Adriana (23:34): Um, yeah, so I just used, um, I use a Roth IRA because it’s, um, money that’s after. So I’ve already paid taxes on it, um, as opposed to using a traditional IRA or something else that, um, you pay tax when you take money out of it. So when you retire. And my rationale for that was that I’m in probably in the lowest tax bracket I’ll ever be in, um, because it’s the lowest tax bracket that exists. Um, so this is a good time to do that because my tax, uh, is only gonna go up. Um, and yeah, that’s what I do. I put like $200 every, uh, month in it. Um, and that’s just been a recent thing ’cause I was like, oh, I probably can swing that now because of the rent and whatever. So I just did it and it goes up pretty nicely. It’s just like fun to look at it every once in a while and so that you’ve accumulated money and, um, yeah, it’s, you can actually, because of compound interest, right, you can end up having a lot more money when you retire. And I know you write about this on your blog too, and I, I read a little bit about the that there as well.

Emily (24:35): I just, for, for any listener who is nervous or intimidated about investing, I just want you to go back and go back, you know, three or four minutes in this podcast, listen to exactly what Adriana said like a few times and listen to her like, you know, the transformation that she went through in being intimidated to just asking a very simple question of someone getting a book recommendation, which she just gave to you and just saying, read this book. It’s so simple. We do have a culture of making investing seem a lot more complicated than it is. And like, I guess that’s because people make money off of making it sound complicated. But for goodness sake, that does not need to be, it should not be, it is so simple and, you know, you just put it absolutely perfectly about your strategy and, and why you’re doing it that way. And yeah, everyone just listen to that a few times over again. Um, great. Go pick up a random walk down Wall Street. Perfect. Perfect recommendation. Thank you so much for sharing that. I’m, I’m really glad to yeah, hear that the same thing that I say, but just coming from someone else who, who approached it from a different way and got to the same conclusion and I think it’s exactly right. So thank you so much for that.

Adriana (25:42): Yeah, no, yeah, I’m super into inve. Like I tell everyone, I, I’ve told people in my lab being like, no, you have to do this. It’s simple and it’s easy and it can help you a lot. Yeah.

Can you tell us the story of your big financial mistake from your second year?

Emily (25:51): Exactly. Um, so let’s switch gears and talk about this, uh, big financial, uh, mistake or challenge that came up in your second year. Can you tell us that story?

Adriana (26:02): Yeah, so it’s a little bit of a longer story, but I’ll, I’ll try to make it short. Um, so, um, I guess, so when I started graduate school, I was still taxed as an international student. Um, so what that means is, and so I went to, I was an international student in undergrad as well. I went to college in the US um, and I had never had to worry about taxes because they were always withheld from my, um, any salary I had. So I had some small on-campus jobs in undergrad and taxes always been withheld, right? So I never had to worry about it. Um, and then in my, after one quarter in graduate school, I had officially been here for five years and that’s when your, um, your residency status for tax purposes changes from a non-resident alien to resident for tax purposes. So that’s, it literally just means we can now tax as if you’re a resident, but you don’t get anything else that residents get <laugh>.

Adriana (26:56): Um, so when that changed, they actually, so sorry. No, that’s <inaudible>, it was a long time ago, but when it, that actually changed in June, in June of my first year of graduate school. And so what they did is they retrospectively went and said, okay, so this applies to this whole year. It doesn’t apply just starting after June, so we’re actually gonna give you back $3,000 that we withheld from your stipend because you were an international student and we withhold from international students, so we’re giving you back $3,000. Um, and I was like, what is this money that I’m getting back? Why am I getting it back? I don’t even know what it is. Um, and they’re like, yeah, well, taxes, blah, blah, blah, something, something. So I had never heard of anyone having this issue before. I asked a few of the people in the program like how much money they spend on, they, like, did they pay taxes on the fellowship?

Adriana (27:44): How does it work? Because all my money did come from, so it’s, it’s different and, and you write a lot on your blog, there’s tons of resources on this. Um, I’m like, how it’s different if you’re in a fellowship, taxes don’t get withheld, you still have to pay them. Um, and people were like, oh, I paid about a thousand dollars. Oh, I paid like $2,000. There were just like sums all over the board. And I think part of those are from like people, some people were still getting claimed as dependents on their parents. Some people potentially were just committing tax evasion, I’m not quite sure. Um, it’s just all sorts of like information from so many places. And I was like, okay, well this seems fine. Like, I don’t know, I’m just gonna, I’ll, I’ll put this money kind of away. But I did end up spending a little bit from it that I got back.

Adriana (28:26): And then I didn’t know that after that I have to start, like my paycheck went up and I just had no idea what was going on. And I was kind of like, you know, I was like, if, if something bad happens, I would’ve heard about it, right? Because someone else would’ve had this issue and I would’ve, there would’ve been a big uproar about it, but no, then April hit and I had to do my taxes and I did my taxes and it said, you owe $3,000 in taxes. Uh, which was like, what? Um, and it was pretty scary. Um, like I kind of freaked out about it a little bit, um, the way I, you want me to talk about how I dealt with it too, right? Like what happened next?

Emily (29:04): Yeah, yeah. So like the first part of this story is, it’s complicated a little bit because of your previous status as a, a non-resident alien, but it, it is a similar story to what many graduate students go through often, you know, they enter their programs in the biomedical sciences, it’s very common to be on a fellowship or training grant, uh, non W2 income for a year or two, three years at the beginning of your PhD, maybe you won an outside fellowship and so that, that first year, yeah, maybe you came out of college, your income wasn’t too high, maybe you’re still dependent on your parents. It’s, it’s complicated, but also you have usually very little tax due for that year, if any. But then that’s that first full calendar year that you’re in graduate school when you’re supposed to be paying quarterly estimated tax, but you don’t know to do that.

Emily (29:51): Super, super common. I mean, I meet, I meet people in this situation all the time. You don’t know that you’re supposed to be paying and then maybe at the end of the year you figure out that you, you know, had this large amount of tax that you either should have been paying or at least at that point it’s due all at once. Um, or you know, I’ve talked to people who go several years without making this discovery and so then it just builds up and builds up and builds up. In your case, you did figure it out just one year in, um, yeah. That you, you were, were, you know, going to owe tax a good amount of tax on your stipend and maybe you were supposed to be paying that or maybe not during the year. Um, so yeah, that’s kind of where we are. You see this big bill.

How did you pay the tax balance?

Emily (30:28): How did you, I mean, it sounds like you still had some of that money set aside. Did you use that and then where else did you turn for the balance?

Adriana (30:35): Yeah, so I had a little bit set aside, um, but it wasn’t, I think I had about a thousand dollars set aside. Um, so I still had to pay like $2,000. Um, I did get lucky again in that I was actually from a previous year disputing with the IRS, um, over a thousand dollars that they hadn’t given me back on a return. Um, and it was because of this. Um, so they withheld from me, uh, in that first quarter of graduate school, right? That’s from the previous tax year. And I actually was owed that money back because there’s a treaty between Romania and the US and so when you have a treaty status, you can get your tax money back from the first five years. But UCLA still withheld it and they weren’t giving it back, and it was this whole thing. So the, that thousand dollars finally got resolved at the same time as with this giant tax bill. So I got some money from there. Um, and then I actually applied for a payment plan with the IRS, which you can do. And um, they kinda laughed at me because it was only for a thousand dollars <laugh>. Um, but I did, this is usually people that apply for, those have like giant sums, right? That they have to pay, um, or I’m not sure, but they seem to make, they made it seem, when I talk to ’em on the phone as if, why do you need a payment plan for this?

Emily (31:50): Um, yeah. ’cause you’re a grad student and you can’t make a thousand dollars materialize out of nowhere.

Adriana (31:55): Exactly. <laugh>. Um, so I did a payment plan and they were like, yeah, sure, it’s fine. Because usually the, the conditions are just, you have to not have applied for a payment plan in the past five years, I think, and the sum has to be below something absurd, like $200,000. I don’t even know what it was. It was something that wasn’t close. Um, so yeah, so I did that and then I slowly just kind of paid it off. Um, and that actually happened, a similar thing happened to my fiance where he also did a payment plan because he had a smaller tax bill, but it was still a pretty significant sum that he couldn’t just make a appear overnight. So yeah, we, we both took advantage of that. So that’s a good pro tip I guess to.

Emily (32:32): Yeah, that is um, I don’t think I’ve spoken with anybody. I mean, I’m aware these payment plans exist, but I, I don’t think I’ve spoken with anybody before who’s been on one. So it sounds like it was a pretty easy, positive experience. I mean, a lot of people are very intimidated to even like talk to the IRS, like if they know they have this outstanding balance, it’s like, oh, I don’t even wanna engage with this because, you know, they’re gonna like gobble me alive or whatever. But it sounds like it worked out okay. Right.

Adriana (32:58): Yeah, there’s a lot of time spent on hold because they’re, uh, like when you call them that you, there’s not, the call center is super overwhelmed with calls. Um, but they, they, they were, yeah, they were okay with it, so, yeah.

Emily (33:09): Okay. Yeah, so that’s how you worked through it. You had, uh, the savings still, you had a different <laugh> unrelated dispute being resolved at the same time, plus the payment plan and that kind of got you through that. That’s really, really good to know for anyone who is facing a similar, you know, I’m, we’re gonna be releasing this episode shortly before, um, April 15th, 2019. And so if you are a graduate student and you’re coming up on that, you know, you’re filing your annual tax return or maybe it’s your first, um, estimated tax payment for 2019 and you realize that you cannot pay this, the IRS is a place to turn to for help really. Um, it’s, I guess it’s a little bit like finance. I mean it’s IRS debt, like it’s, you’re sort of financing it through the IRS, but it’s, uh, manageable it sounds like, as long as you can afford to be waiting on hold to talk with them. So I’m really glad that you shared that aspect. Thanks.

Adriana (33:57): Yeah, and I don’t think there’s any interest. They never, there’s, it’s an interest free thing, I think for the most part.

Emily (34:02): Yeah, I think if you totally ignore what’s going on and they’re like, then that’s when penalties and interests rack up. But if you engage with them and start working with them, then they can like waive those fees and, and penalties and stuff. So it’s definitely better to just admit that like, Hey, I know, I know this debt exists, you know, this debt exists. Uh, let’s work on, you know, figuring out how to pay it rather than just, uh, yeah, just sort of trying to run and hide ’cause it’s not gonna work out in the long run.

Adriana (34:26): Yeah, absolutely. <laugh>.

Final Comments

Emily (34:28): Yeah. Well, um, yeah, thank you so much Adriana for, for sharing that with us. Do you have any sort of closing comments about, you know, any, any tips you didn’t get in any other part of this interview?

Adriana (34:39): Budgeting can definitely be tough and kind of it’s time consuming and a little bit stressful. Um, but it’s totally worth it because it’s more stressful to not afford to pay your rent <laugh>. So that’s, yeah.

Emily (34:52): Kind of what we were just talking about, like it’s, it’s better to just face up, fess up, face up to the reality of the situation always and engage, you know, with what, whatever you need to engage with rather than just trying to run hide because it just, it just compounds the problems really. Yeah. Thank you for, thank you for sharing with that, that with us. And uh, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

Adriana (35:14): Yeah, thank you for having me. This was great,

Outro

Emily (35:18): Adriana. Thank you so much for being my guest on the podcast today. Show notes for this episode are at pfforphds.com/S2E6. As a postscript, this episode is being released shortly before April 15th, 2019, which is the deadline both for your annual tax return and your quarterly estimated tax payment for the first quarter of 2019. If you’re unsure how to go about calculating and making that payment, please consider purchasing my quarterly estimated tax workshop for fellowship recipients. The prerecorded videos walk you line by line through how to fill out Form 1040es. I also hold a live q and a session once per quarter to answer any questions that arise for you during the process. You can find more information about the workshop at the tax center on my website pfforphds.com/tax. If you wanna get in touch with me, you can email me at [email protected] or find me on Twitter at pfforPhDs or Facebook personal finance for PhDs. If you’d like to receive updates on new podcast episodes and other content, go to PFforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC Podcast. Editing and show notes creation by Jewel Lipps.

Roth IRA

Links mentioned in episode

Teaser

Introduction

Please Introduce Yourself

What is your income?

What are your five largest expenses each month?

#1 Expense: Rent

#2 Expense: Taxes

#3 Expense: Food

#4 and #5 Expense: Utilities and Subscription Services

Commercial

What are you currently doing to further your financial goals?

Do you have long term goals?

What is your best financial advice that you’d share with your peers?

Outro

Your Three Options for Your Workplace-Based Retirement Account

Leave It Where It Is

Roll to Your New Workplace-Based Retirement Account

Roll to an IRA

Which Option Should You Choose?

Other Advice Related to Retirement Saving

Contribute Money to Your 401(k) or 403(b) While You Still Can

Keep Investing for Retirement!

Consider Traditional to Roth Conversion During Grad School

Conclusion

The IRS’s Retirement Account Contribution Window Extends until Tax Day

Receive Your Tax "Cheat Sheet"

Eligibility and Contribution Limits

Why Is Contributing to an IRA So Important?

Why Am I Specifying a Roth IRA?

Always Contribute to Last Year’s IRA First

An Illustration (with Numbers!)

Free Email Course: Investing for Early-Career PhDs

The Psychology of a Ceiling

My Personal Experience with Contributing to Prior Year Roth IRAs

Links mentioned in episode

0:00 Introduction

1:05 Please Introduce Yourself

2:02 What was your career trajectory?

7:47 Given that a person has decided to do a PhD and maybe a postdoc, what are the effects of their financial outlook?

17:13 How can someone handle the income jump after the suppressed income period of being a trainee in a PhD or postdoc?

23:40 Grad students and some postdocs don’t pay into the social security system. What are the long term effects of missing out on these years of contributions?

26:59 What steps can someone who’s in or recently been in PhD training do to mitigate negative effects of lower income and not contributing to retirement?

30:16 If a person starts saving during graduate school, what kind of effect can that have on retirement?

35:50 What do you do for clients?

40:03 Final Comments

41:15 Conclusion

The NSF GRFP’s Negotiation Power

Independence

Additional Funding

For Prospective Graduate Students

Join Our Phinancially Distinct Community

Budgeting with Your Fellowship Income

Accelerate Progress on Financial Goals

Preparing for the Post-Fellowship Income Drop

Budgeting with an Irregular Income

Income Tax Implications of the NSF GRFP

Tax Reporting

Receive Your Tax "Cheat Sheet"

Quarterly Estimated Tax

Investing Implications of the NSF GRFP

Free Email Course: Investing for Early-Career PhDs

Links mentioned in episode

Teaser

Introduction

Please Introduce Yourself

How do you live within your means in Los Angeles?

What is your approach to budgeting in Los Angeles?

What is the system that you use for budgeting?

What do you do about large expenses?

Any other comments about your budget or how you make it work in Los Angeles?

Commercial

Can you talk about saving for retirement?

Can you tell us the story of your big financial mistake from your second year?

How did you pay the tax balance?

Final Comments

Outro

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