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How This PhD Conducted a Job Search and Evaluated Multiple Offers in the Private Sector

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Sean Bittner, a newly minted PhD in biomedical engineering, on how Sean navigated finding and landing his first post-PhD job in medtech innovation. Sean timed his start date for immediately after his grad student position finished so as to not miss any paychecks, and they discuss how early Sean started networking and applying for positions to enable that smooth transition. They also talk through the strategies and tools that were most helpful to Sean in the job search process. Finally, Sean lists the elements of a job offer and what questions you need to ask to fully understand the salary and benefits. This conversation will benefit current graduate students and PhDs who are planning to pursue private sector jobs in the near or far future. You won’t want to miss Sean’s powerful concluding advice!

Links Mentioned in the Episode

How This PhD Conducted a Job Search and Evaluated Multiple Offers in the Private Sector

Teaser

00:00 Sean: Graduate school doesn’t always, I think, do a great job of reminding students of their worth. Of not just financial worth, but also their work worth and just like worth as an individual. But that was huge in my job search, was understanding like, no, no, I deserve to be here. You know, I deserve to be having conversations with working professionals that I admire that I think are, you know, extremely brilliant and hardworking. Like, I deserve to be here because I’m those things too. I did a PhD. I did these other things that qualify me to be here. This is myspace and I get to take it.

Introduction

00:42 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 14, and today my guest is Dr. Sean Bittner, a newly-minted PhD in biomedical engineering, on how Sean navigated finding and landing his first post-PhD job in medtech innovation. Sean timed his start date for immediately after his grad student position finished so as to not miss any paychecks, and we discuss how early Sean started networking and applying for positions to enable that smooth transition. We also talk through the strategies and tools that were most helpful to Sean in the job search process. Finally, Sean lists the elements of a job offer and what questions you need to ask to fully understand the salary and benefits. Don’t miss Sean’s powerful concluding advice! Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Sean Bittner.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:48 Emily: I am delighted to have Dr. Sean Bittner back on the podcast. He was actually a guest on season six, episode 12. This was while he was in graduate school. We talked a lot about budgeting, how he and his wife were budgeting accrding to their values. Fascinating episode, recommend listening to it. But Sean is back because he very recently finished his PhD. We’re recording this in mid-September. He finished last month, and also started his post-PhD job last month. And so we’re going to be talking about that process of like, how do you do the job search, like while you’re finishing up your PhD? And how do you evaluate job offers? So really excited to talk to you, Sean. Will you please introduce yourself further for the audience?

02:26 Sean: Sure. Yeah. Thanks again, Emily. My name is Sean Bittner. I’m a recent PhD grad in bioengineering from Rice University. Recent as in four weeks ago. So very exciting, still kind of in the thrill of being done. And then, yeah, I also started my post-PhD job the day after, and I’m excited to just chat about the job search, and all the things to think about.

Timing Between Finishing PhD and Starting New Job

02:53 Emily: I know, because this is something that I’m sure is on the minds of many, many graduate students. Definitely in like the year when they’re finishing up, but maybe even the multiple years before then. This can be a great conversation for postdocs as well. Even people who have already navigated one job search might, you know, pick up some tips or at least some different perspective on how you did things. Of course, this always ends up being very individual, but so happy to hear your story. So the first thing I want to ask about is timing, because you just mentioned that you didn’t miss a paycheck between finishing up with your however you were being paid, assistantship or fellowship or whatever, and going into your job. So like, wow. Like if that was your goal, how did you manage to work out the timing that way?

03:32 Sean: Yeah, yeah, so this is a good thought. I would say it was a long time planning. There are a couple of elements there. One is scheduling the thesis defense, I think is always a little bit hairy just based on having to get four or five, six people in the same room at the same time. It’s hard. But I actually defended my thesis two months ago, so it was July 13th and had about a month’s worth of just wrap up and carry over after that. But I also had two weeks of vacation to use still. So right after defending, my wife and I took a much=needed, I think well-deserved vacation. And I came back, I had two weeks of work left, and then I was trying to set it up so that, okay, I’m done.

04:12 Sean: I already took my vacation. So I don’t need to take a bunch of time off between grad school and work and trying to get a start at my new job. Some of the companies that I was looking at were starting immediately, or starting a week later. But it wasn’t, you know, start in two or three months. I think I tried to make sure that it was just a consistent transition. I also wouldn’t necessarily know what to do with myself for three or four weeks off. I just, I like, I don’t know, having a purpose and going and doing some cool stuff.

04:41 Emily: Another thing you mentioned in there is that you defended two months ago, and then you had this bit of extra time, which I think is really good idea. You’re going to have to do edits on your thesis. Maybe you’re trying to get a last paper, you know, submitted or there’s always kind of wrapping up stuff. So I definitely think it’s good to time that defense a little bit before your pay would end.

04:59 Sean: Right.

04:59 Emily: It sounds like you, like were you paid through the end of a normal like semester term, like the summer term, or was your end date like somehow, otherwise negotiated?

05:08 Sean: Yeah. So, this is another good question. It depends on the department, the advisor, the school. The academic year is also your pay year at Rice, for grad students. And that ended on August 15th. After you defend your thesis, you can have a conversation with your department and with your advisor about, okay, how long do you actually need to finish everything up? And the discussion that we had was, I’m going to take two weeks vacation. I haven’t taken that yet. When I get back, I have about two weeks worth of work left to wrap everything up, finish any final changes and edits to my thesis. I didn’t have the last paper to try to complete on the tail end. So I didn’t have that time crunch. But then also there are students still working in the lab. So, you know, making sure that they kind of have a good turnover plan, I don’t want to just leave them high and dry and say like, oh, bye I’m out. You know, I wanted to make sure that everybody that I could assist in bringing up to speed, I did that before I left.

Transparency About Job Start Date Flexibility

06:08 Emily: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like you sort of knew that this date, this, you know, academic year turnover was a reasonable date. And so did you time your job search process then around knowing that was the ideal date to start, like mid-August?

06:22 Sean: Yeah. I had more of a guesstimate than a true date. Like, I didn’t know for sure, “Oh, it’s definitely August 16th.” Right? But I had an inkling of when my thesis defense would be, I knew it would be late summer, ended up being the middle of July. And when I was job searching, I was very transparent about that. Some people were looking for, “Oh, we need you to start on Monday.” Obviously that didn’t work out. And then some people that I was talking to later, I was open from the beginning. I’m interested in this opportunity, but it’s going to be sometime in August. And all of those companies had hired PhD students before. So they’re familiar with the idea that I don’t necessarily know the exact day I can start. But I got out of the way pretty quickly any really serious mismatch, like as I said before, I was talking to somebody briefly and they were like, yeah, we are excited about you, but we don’t have a job open until January. And I said, Hmm, I don’t think I can wait that long. And I’m glad that I didn’t because, you know, we’ll talk about this later, but I love the job that I’m in. So, I wouldn’t have wanted to wait for a maybe of a job that might open. But I think I was as clear as I could have been, I guess that’s the way to put it.

07:35 Emily: And let’s talk, I’m going into so much detail about these timing questions, because for me it was a source of stress and I think it’s a source of stress for other people as well. So for the types of jobs that you were looking for, it sounded like the company’s timelines were quite wide-ranging from, I want you to start next Monday, you know, if they were to hire you to, we have many, many months lead time on this. And it’s a little bit different from the academic search process, which is a little bit more well-known. It’s, you know, these fixed portions of the year that are dedicated, determined from parts of the process. So how did you like figure out what these timelines were and then therefore be able to backtrack and know how early you needed to start these conversations and start applying?

08:16 Sean: Yeah, I would say it was unique to every company, honestly. Similar to how you mentioned with the academic traditional academic pipeline, there are fixed dates in a normal schedule. And even with coming from undergrad, thinking about getting a job straight out of undergrad, there’s kind of a fixed schedule. You apply in the fall. You might hear something December, January. They expect you to start in May. Like that’s a standard thing. And so when I was looking at this in February and March of this year, I was kind of thinking the same thing, like, okay, I’m going to start talking to people. But I’ve learned, I work in the med tech space now, and I learned that it’s really dependent on what each company’s needs are at that time. Some companies I talked to, they had to fill somebody that day, like they needed somebody immediately.

09:00 Sean: And some of them, it was, you know, our fiscal year doesn’t roll over until August and we can’t add a new position until then, right? So I knew it was going to be, like I said, I knew it was going be sometime over the summer. And so I was trying to narrow down to some people. And again, just trying to get them to work with me a little bit flexibility-wise on, I won’t be available until August, but on the other hand, I will be available in August, right? And so like, how can we work this out?

Starting the Job Search

09:30 Emily: And so, maybe you said this and I missed it. So how early did you start your job search?

09:37 Sean: It’s a little hard to narrow it down just because like I would say, you know, I was talking to people for quite a while. I would say I was talking loosely to people as early as the fall, maybe winter of 2020. And then I started to have more serious conversations about job stuff in maybe March of this year.

09:58 Emily: So it went maybe more from like networking, feeling each other out to like, okay, we’re going to like put pen to paper and like get your name in front of somebody.

10:06 Sean: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And, I can’t remember the exact date, but the call that ultimately got me in front of the people to get me in front of to get the job that I have now I think was in June, maybe. So a relatively quick turnaround in terms of, or compared to what I was expecting. You know, I was thinking like, okay, I’m gonna apply in March and they’re going to have me start five months later. And it was pretty quick.

10:34 Emily: Yeah. I guess I’ll chime in a little bit more on this timing. And of course I have not had a “job” job post-PhD, but my husband has. He has also a PhD, and so he works for a startup and it was quite small at the time he was hired. I think he was maybe employee number 12 or something like that. And they hired him and another one of his colleagues right around the same time. And for him, it was a very quick interview process because he was already in a postdoc that was very casual. It could end at any time. And so he was like, yeah, like we want to get started in a month or two or whatever. Like totally we can do that. That’s how quickly he was hired. His colleague who was hired at the same time, had a start date of about six months later.

11:12 Emily: So that same company was very flexible with these two different candidates. And probably that’s because they’re a startup that they could be that flexible. But I just thought it was interesting that like both of them were like, you know, coming out of PhD, coming out of postdoc and had different timing needs and the company was able to accommodate both of them.

Network or Nothing

11:29 Emily: So when you embarked on the networking that ultimately led to applying, what, you know, had you picked up in terms of strategies, maybe from your professional development during graduate school, maybe from outside sources, that were really useful to you during that period?

11:44 Sean: Yeah. So I think I’ll start with the easiest one. Everybody says it, it’s almost a cliché, but it’s really true. It’s network or nothing for the most part. It’s you got to know somebody. And I don’t mean like, oh, your, your dad’s on the board or like you have a family friend. But all of the jobs that I applied for, I knew someone that put me in front of someone else that put me in front of somebody else. Zero of them were I had the most compelling application on LinkedIn. And I think, like I can’t understate that enough, I guess. Like LinkedIn is super useful for finding information, getting connected to people, learning about the different types of jobs that are available. But ultimately, it’s a stack of resumes in terms of applying. And in fact, I didn’t actually formally apply, in the traditional sense, until well after I had had an inkling that the company was interested in me. And that’s true for all of the companies I applied with. So I think the number one is work on your network, reach out to people, just try to get in front of, you know, get some face time, and tell people who you are and why you’re excited about them.

12:52 Emily: You’re right. Everybody says networking and it’s really intimidating for a lot of people to hear. So please, can you be more specific about like, who was in your network? Like who were those first, the first layer of people that you like reached out to, and then maybe there was another layer, but who was that initial network?

Network Composition

13:09 Sean: Sure. So, of the opportunities that I was considering at the time, each of the companies I got connected to by one person, or in one case, two people. One of them was a former manager of mine. They had moved on but was connected to one of the companies, introduced me. The second one was another student in one of the master’s programs at Rice, went and took a job at this company. And I kind of knew them and I was familiar with the company. And I just said, “Hey, I’m interested in your job. Can you tell me about it? Not that I want to take your job, but I’d like to maybe work for your company.” And that’s actually the job that I ended up taking, is they ultimately connected me with their boss, and that person’s boss is the CEO. And we sat down and had a chat.

13:57 Sean: And they just said, “Yeah, we’re looking for somebody. You seem like you fit the bill. Let’s let’s talk.” The other one was somebody I had worked with in the past. I had done a little bit of, of just like, I guess, diligence work is the best way to describe it. But I had done some work for them in the past when they were at a different company. And then when they moved, they said, “Hey, I have a job open. Do you want to talk about it?” And I said, “Sure. You know, I’d love to chat.” So all of the people that I networked with, it wasn’t just, again, I reached out to them once on LinkedIn. It was people that I’ve worked with explicitly in the past that can speak of my skills, that can speak of, ideally, my personality. People that knew me more than just a face that’s that’s on LinkedIn.

14:44 Emily: Absolutely. I totally agree, that first layer does not have to be like reaching out to strangers. Like no, it should be people who, as you said, have some personal connection with you, hopefully through work, but not necessarily, who can then, you know, forward your name onto the other right people. And I think that, you know, current graduate students like need to know that their peers around them, and potentially their advisors and other professors around them as well, can very well serve as that first layer. So I know one of my, like sort of regrets in graduate school, was not being better connected with the other people in my program, especially the people ahead of me. Let us just say, leaving Duke before me, whether that was PhDs graduating before me, whether that was masters students or undergrads coming in after me, make those connections, too. Because they all are going to be out there potentially, you know, in a place that you’d be interested in working. So those connections are so, so important. And that networking, the “networking” quote unquote, is just your normal connections with other people who you work with and are around during your graduate degree. It’s much more casual at the beginning, but you have those loose connections and then you can pull on them later as you did. And just let them know, I’m looking for work. I’m going to be graduating at approximately X date. Your company sounds cool. Can we talk about that more?

15:59 Sean: Yeah, I think I had, I don’t want to say an easier time, but I have a fairly gregarious personality. It maybe becomes a little bit more natural to me to just kind of get out and talk to people. But it’s really true that, maybe not the reason I got my job, but like the connection that got me the job that I have is a masters student that I knew left Rice before I left Rice, was working at the company for a few years and I said, ‘Hey, can we talk?” Done. And that was it.

LinkedIn and Beyond

16:26 Emily: So we mentioned networking, you mentioned LinkedIn. Did LinkedIn come into play, particularly in your search, given that networking in real life was actually what led you to, you know, the right place?

16:40 Sean: Yeah, so again, I think it’s a good informational tool. It certainly came into my search in terms of figuring out what other people in my field were doing. And then also, in a lot of cases, LinkedIn was the first touch point. For example, this masters student that I’ve talked about a couple of times, that was my first message on LinkedIn, was, “Hey, can we, you know, have a phone call and set it up?” Everything after that was phone calls, emails, et cetera. But the first message was LinkedIn. And same thing, you mentioned other students in your department, other students in your program and at the university, some of my other connection points were prior students in my lab that graduated years before me with their PhD. But you kind of have this like familial relationship because you came from the same lab, you know. They want to see other students from that lab succeed. So same thing, you know, either LinkedIn or just having access to their email and just cold emailing and say, “Hey, I’m from so-and-so lab. I’d love to chat about your own experience in job searching. Can we set up a call?” But yeah, LinkedIn is hugely useful. I think it’s just not the beginning and the end, it’s the beginning.

17:51 Emily: Yeah. Any other strategies that you want to share with us that you found useful during this process?

17:54 Sean: I think one thing to keep in mind that we maybe haven’t touched on so far is, the network that you have is bigger than you think it is. And that’s not like a empty hollow way of saying, like, you don’t know who other people know until you ask them. Example: I have a friend of a friend who, when I said, I’m interested in this company that I’m looking at, they said, oh yeah, I know so-and-so manager at that company, let me put in a call. And I didn’t ask for that. You know, I didn’t ask for, can you recommend me? I just, they asked me about how my job search was going, and I was honest about it. And the next day I got an email and said, oh yeah, I heard from your manager, friend. I’d love to chat. Let’s talk about it. So there is the element of like, you have to network, but there’s also asking, just being explicit and asking your friends and your colleagues, like who do you know that might be able to help? Because that’s ultimately what we’re all here to do. I would love if somebody from my lab, my department reaches out to me that knows me and said, “Hey, I’m looking for a job. Can you help me?” Love to, I’d be happy to help if I can.

19:02 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s a really common human thing. Like if we can make someone else’s experience go easier, it’s something that we’ve already done in the past. And you’re also, you know, if you actually get a hire, like you’re also helping your company and so forth. So it’s kind of like a win-win, win-win all the way around for networking.

Commercial

19:20 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Our next live discussion and Q&A call is on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to PFforPhds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

The Anatomy of a Job Offer

20:33 Emily: Okay. So, you’ve networked, you’ve gotten your name in front of the right people, you’ve interviewed, and you’re finally getting, you’ve mentioned a few different job offers. And so what actually did the job offers look like, and what were the components that you were sort of considering?

20:48 Sean: Yeah. Yeah. So, this is, I think the meat of the conversation today. The standard job offer, I feel like, baseline, has two components. You have base salary, and you have ancillary benefits, whether that’s vacation time or sick time, like just time off basically. But, there are other things to consider there. And so, it’s interesting. I kind of had the gambit of a variety of different things that were part of the quote unquote package. Here are some things in no particular order that it could be: straight salary and, you know, vacation or sick time or whatever. One of them might be salary. And if you’re at a startup, it’s salary plus stock in the company, it could be. Some other things that other companies do is you have a salary, but also we have a retirement plan, whether it’s 401(k) or 403(b). You’ve talked about that a couple of times with other students, or I guess other professionals now on the podcast. Those things are things to keep in mind. Whether the company offers health insurance or not is hugely important.

21:54 Sean: But all of these things together are a much larger conversation than just the salary number that you see on maybe your job offer. Something else to keep in mind is you may not see those other things on your offer letter, if that makes sense. So not that they’re, you know, trying to be hidden or anything like that, it just may not be part of the standard form email that you get of like, “Oh, we’d like to offer you this job. Your compensation is this, you have this many weeks off.” I asked I think all of those questions to all of the companies, and they were very forthcoming with the information once I asked. But it wasn’t part of their standard letter. There’s also some differences in time. Sorry, I’m kind of all over the place.

Variable Employee Benefits

22:36 Sean: As an example, the company I work at now, the time off policy is really generous. I think it’s everything, sick vacation, et cetera, is all PTO, or paid time off, but it’s unlimited PTO, right? So, I don’t have this weird situation where like, “Oh, I’m out of sick days, but I’m sick. Or my kid is sick, or I have to take my animal to the vet or something.” And on the other side, like I don’t have to feel like I can’t use any of my vacation days, right? Like there’s a very open policy about that. Some of the other companies, it was very explicit. You have 40 hours or 40 hours of sick leave and, you know, two weeks of vacation or whatever. I would say that’s more of a standard notice. It’s two or three weeks vacation and then a fixed amount of sick time also.

23:23 Sean: On the stock side, I think there’s pros and cons to stocks. I’m not a huge single stock guy, for retirement. So, you know, when I look at single stocks, it’s kind of a gamble. You know, they could be worth a huge amount of money if that company skyrockets. They could also not be worth very much if something happens and, you know, especially in biotech. That comes and goes, right? And so like, you kind of got to weigh, okay, is this a gamble I’m comfortable taking? And then the last piece, I talked about retirement before. One of the companies I was looking at offered a retirement package. It was, I forget if it was a 401(k) for 403(b). But it was required participation up to a certain amount. So, it wasn’t a match, it’s just they set it up so that, you know, X percent of your salary has to go in no matter what. That can be valuable because it prevents you the legwork of having to go set it up yourself.

24:15 Sean: But, as you’ve talked about previously, if you’re interested in having a little bit more control over your own retirement package, you can set up an IRA. You can just set up external mutual funds. If they have a plan at work, they will send you information about the funds that they have available. And you can kind of make a decision on how was the track record for these funds? Can I get, you know, better returns elsewhere, whether it’s an IRA or just a mutual fund in a non-retirement account. I think all of that nuance like doesn’t immediately come to mind when you’re first looking at a job, but it is important. And I also want to just put a small asterisk here. Money is only part of the conversation. Ultimately I took the job that I took because I love the work, and I’m really passionate about the type of work that I’m going to get to do. But it is part of the conversation.

25:08 Emily: Love everything you said, like, exactly right. The salary is going to be upfront. Maybe the time off policy will be upfront. Maybe they’ll mention something about healthcare or retirement or insurance or something, but you’re probably going to have to do another layer of questions and say, “Hey, send me your booklet on your, you know, retirement policy, and I’ll take a look at it.” Or like, let me know, like, you know, I mean, insurance is such a massive, massive issue. Especially, like I’m thinking, you know, I’m married, we have two children, we’re all on my husband’s workplace insurance. So like how much of a premium his employer pays versus how much he pays. The deductibles, all that stuff matters a lot because we have a lot of people riding on that one, you know, policy.

25:49 Emily: And maybe, you know, you have to evaluate how much that matters to you, but if you are supporting a family on one insurance policy, you could be looking at a premium of a thousand dollars a month easily for an employer that doesn’t help out that much, or even more, versus an employer who pays a hundred percent of the premium or 90%. It’s a massive, massive difference. But that’s very individual, you know, you have to really decide what’s more important to you. Is it the vacation policy? Is it the healthcare? Is it that the retirement plan has a match? And that’s super, super good to you or whatever. And maybe that’s why they’re not that upfront with this because like salary matters to everyone, but like maybe there’s different levels of caring about these other elements.

26:26 Sean: Yeah. And it could also be you know, no fault to the company. It may just not be prudent to kind of give all that information out upfront. So for example, some of the companies that I looked at, I knew that there was a retirement plan. Or I knew that there was health insurance provided. But in the case of health insurance, which you just talked about, I didn’t actually know what coverage was available to me until after accepting the job, or in the case of one of the ones I didn’t take, until after I would have accepted the job. So, that’s also a little bit of a gray area where, okay. I know that there is some type of insurance provided, but I wouldn’t get to decide whether, like you said, it would be better for my wife and I to stay on my wife’s insurance versus change over to this new one until actually taking the job.

Comparing Job Offers

27:12 Emily: Exactly. So you were in the fortunate position, the well-timed position of having multiple offers, it sounds like simultaneously, or at least like overlapping or something on the table. Yeah. And so you could actually look and say, not it’s a yes or no on this job, but like, what do I like about this job offer versus this one? And of course the work’s important. You mentioned that the work matters, I would say most. But the salary and so forth benefits are part of that. So how did you do this like comparison? And also, did you do any negotiation knowing that you had, you know, competing offers?

27:43 Sean: Yeah. So this is a good question. I think I did it in tiers. The first tier was, like you talked about just now, the nature of the work. The job that I have now, it wasn’t until realizing that that job was available to me, that I realized how excited I was about that type of work, right. And so, I think there’s something to be said for like, if it’s financially feasible, of course this is a personal finance podcast. If it’s financially feasible, pick the job that you enjoy, because there are going to be some days that you don’t enjoy. And I think those days go down better at a company that you enjoy doing work that you like, as opposed to at a company that you’re not super thrilled about, but you’re getting paid a lot to do it. So that’s, you know, obviously tier one.

28:27 Sean: Tier two, this is a personal finance podcast. I looked at kind of the, just as much as I could, apples to apples of each of them. Again, I talked about, I knew that there were benefits for all of them. I didn’t have insight into the specific coverages and all of that until actually taking the job. So in terms of like evaluating them, I picked the one that was what I consider an optimum. It was the best combination of salary and benefits and I’m passionate about the job. And then in terms of negotiation, I didn’t really negotiate, in part because I knew that the offers that I was getting work were competitive with what I would expect for the types of roles I was getting. So I didn’t ever really push back on, oh, you know, I think I’m worth this much or, you know, this other, I didn’t really do any of that.

The Tactic of Honesty

29:19 Sean: What I did do was be transparent about wanting the job. For example, I did have a favorite and obviously I took that one. But when we were having that conversation, I was transparent with them and I said, this is my top choice. I’d love to do it. Like, how do we make that happen? And it wasn’t until I think like sometimes employee applicants and employers are playing this game of chicken of like, I want to be vulnerable and tell you that I want you, but I don’t want you to say no, right? And so like, there’s this weird tension. And I just, I tried to cut through that and say like, if you guys are not interested in me, cool. You know, like I get that. I’m going to go pursue another opportunity. But if you are, like, I’m really interested in this, let’s make it happen. And I think that ultimately sealed the deal because they also were probably thinking a little bit of like, we like him. We’ve said we like him, but we’re not really sure where he’s going. He said he has a couple of offers. So I know it can be a little nerve-wracking, but like, there’s something to be said for transparency and honesty, if that’s part of the conversation.

30:27 Emily: I think that, it sounds like, you know, that conversation was prior to the formal offer being made, right? Like that could have been what tipped you over into getting an offer versus maybe we’ll go with another candidate, you know, that sort of thing. So like, I think at that stage, you use that tactic really well. Honesty, the tactic of honesty.

30:45 Sean: Right. Yeah. And I think, so another, I guess small detail that’s important here is, I knew the terms of what an offer would be for each of the companies before actually receiving the offer. So that’s, I think part of it too, is like the formal paperwork wasn’t filed, but I knew what it would be talking about. There wasn’t a part where I came in and something, you know, surprised me totally out of the blue. I wasn’t expecting that. So that might be part of it too, is I think that there was a little bit less formal, like I’m applying, I wait for my offer letter, I consider the offer letter and more of a fluid, like, I know what we’re talking about. Everybody’s kind of on the same page in terms of information, and now we just need to make some decisions.

Tell Us More About Your Job

31:28 Emily: Yeah. That’s really good insight. I think for anybody who has not had a job in the private sector, and they’re not really sure, especially, let’s say particular to your space, and of course this is going to vary across other companies, but like, it’s good to just hear someone’s experience and how you navigated that. So tell us a little bit more about the job that you actually took. What is the nature of the work that you’re doing?

31:47 Sean: Yeah. So, I’m going to be working in we’ll call it, I guess, med tech innovation or med tech support. So basically what I’ll be doing is helping support startup companies in the medical device space, getting them prepped and moving through the different stages of development, helping, you know, maybe teach them some core concepts about regulatory and clinical trials and all of these things that they have to do to get their product to market. I’m, I think excited about that aspect in particular, you know but now I’ve really fallen in love with this coaching and teaching space over the last couple of years. So like I’m going to get to do that as part of my job, which is super cool. And then I also get to stay in the science realm without actually, you know, holding a pipette myself, which was, I think ultimately my goal coming out. That’s something I didn’t think to talk about earlier, but that was part of, I knew kind of the nature of the work that I would want coming out of grad school, which was, I want to be involved in science, but I don’t necessarily want to do the science myself. I think I see myself more as a coach, a mentor, a supporter of other individual contributors than I see myself as one.

Role of Side Work in Career Path

33:05 Emily: Given the skill set that you’ll now be using that you developed partially through the coaching and teaching side work that you were doing during graduate school. How much of, you know, how important was it that you pursued those side endeavors in ultimately, you know, formulating and landing this particular job and career path?

33:24 Sean: So, I think it’s a good question. I think the answer is a little nuanced. Over the course of my PhD, I did a couple of different things. I did the traditional research route. Of course, that’s what I got my PhD in. I also did some short-term consulting at a nonprofit in town. And then I did, as you said, coaching and training, more leadership and career coaching style. All of those things were relevant in the job search, in getting the job that I ultimately have. In fact, the fact that I have a PhD in bioengineering, I think qualified me to be even at the table having the conversation. But the things that sold me, that you know, put me over the edge were these other ancillary things that I was doing. And going back to the networking piece, an ancillary skill that you have is conversation, right? I work in now, medtech innovation. There’s a lot of handshaking and smiling and waving and chatting and, you know drinks over dinner. Like there’s all of this kind of stuff in this field. And so having gotten experience in learning how to evaluate startup companies, in learning how to decide whether a team or a founder or somebody is coachable, is willing to do the work and learn. Those are things that I didn’t get through five years of bench work, but are incredibly relevant to my job.

It’s Okay to Just Be You

35:00 Emily: I think what I’m taking away from your explanation there is, during graduate school or during these earlier phases of training, you be you. You just do the things that you want to do, learn the things that you want to learn, explore different opportunities, figure out what you like. And it’s okay. In fact, it may be very helpful if some of those things are not strictly grad student role kinds of things, strictly at the bench, strictly just publishing papers and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, and if you are you during graduate school and you’re pursuing all these other things that you like, it will help you find and craft a job and career that you actually like later on, don’t try to fit yourself into this like I’m just a researcher or I’m just a teacher mold if that’s not you. If it’s you, perfect. Grad school is great for you. If that’s not exactly you, you need to explore these other areas because you don’t want to be stuck into a mold that you don’t fit in for the whole rest of your career.

35:57 Sean: Yeah. I think that’s true. I do want to, you know, obviously present the caveat of like, it’s true, you’re getting a PhD in the stuff that you’re doing at the bench or in the case of, you know, non-wet lab stuff, in the stuff that you’re doing for your degree. So you do have to obviously do that and do it well. I think there’s value in, you know, crafting a really strong body of work. That being said, there are a lot of people that they do their research, and that’s what they do. That I think qualifies you to be at the table to get jobs that people are looking for PhD hires for. And in the case of a more traditional academic route, like kick butt at publications and grant writing, all of that. Hugely important, and those are the things that are relevant to your job.

36:44 Sean: But that’s not necessarily the case for everyone. And in fact, again, personal example, of the offers that I was considering, only one of them was even really closely related at all to the specific work I was doing. So I think I talked about this last time, but, my PhD was in the 3D printing space. I was looking at bone and cartilage printing. That bioengineering experience was more relevant to one offer. For all of the other job opportunities, they were interested in my coaching background. They were interested in my knowledge, not only of science, but of like the startup environment. Those are things that I wouldn’t have learned just in my lab work because the lab work’s not designed for that, right? The lab work is designed for the really detailed, basic science level type work that is used to eventually create some of these opportunities.

Best Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

37:40 Emily: I think that was very, very well put. I ask my guests as you know, a last question, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? I think we just got some fantastic advice, but do you have any others? It could be something we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely different.

37:57 Sean: Yeah. So, I guess two, because I’m not great at following directions. The same thing that we just talked about, which is, I think there’s real value in pursuing and carving out whatever path makes the most sense for your career, whether that’s a traditional academic route, whether that’s something else. Finding and doing and pursuing opportunities that are relevant to that. I think the other thing is, we’ve talked about this before, and you’ve talked about this with several students on the podcast previously. Graduate school doesn’t always, I think, do a great job of reminding students of their worth, of not just financial worth, but also their work worth and just like worth as an individual. But that was huge in my job search was understanding like, no, no, I deserve to be here. You know, I deserve to be having conversations with working professionals that I admire that I think are, you know, extremely brilliant and hardworking. Like, I deserve to be here because I’m those things too. I did a PhD, now that might be because I’m stubborn, but like I did a PhD. I did these other things that qualify me to be here. And I’m not a poser. I’m not taking somebody else’s place by being here. Like this is my space and I get to take it.

39:16 Emily: Wonderful. I think this interview is going to be so useful to graduate students and postdocs who are, you know, looking forward to this post-PhD career transition, especially into the private sector. So thank you so much, Sean, for joining me on giving this interview.

39:29 Sean: Sure, sure. Thanks for having me again.

Outtro

39:37 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

An MD/PhD Pays with Time Instead of Money

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In this episode, Emily interviews Emily Przysinda, an MD/PhD student at the University of Rochester who is approximately halfway through her 8-year degree program. As is typical in a Medical Scientist Training Program (MSTP), Emily’s funding package includes tuition and fees and a stipend for the entire program. Emily and Emily discuss the financial side of the MD/PhD and why it shouldn’t be thought of as a free medical degree. Emily shares why she chose an MD/PhD program and what the career options are afterwards. Thanks to the low cost of living in Rochester, Emily has been working on her finances intentionally for the last couple of years and is pursuing several savings and investing goals—but decided against buying a house. This episode is perfect for anyone considering an MD/PhD program or curious about the mindset of someone pursuing an 8-year-long graduate program.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

mdphd pays with time instead of money

Teaser

00:00 Emily P: If you think about what an MD might be making in the four last years of their career, because that would be to assume they might have a more extended career by four years, it’s probably only about maybe a year or two worth of salaries of debt that they take on for this. But essentially I say that I pay in time and not money for my MD degree, just because of the opportunity costs of not having those extra four years of the career.

Introduction

00:37 Emily R: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 13, and today my guest is Emily Przysinda, an MD/PhD student at the University of Rochester who is approximately halfway through her 8-year degree program. As is typical in a Medical Scientist Training Program, Emily’s funding package includes tuition and fees and a stipend for the entire program. We discuss the financial side of the MD/PhD and why it shouldn’t be thought of as a free medical degree. Emily shares why she chose an MD/PhD program and what the career options are afterwards. Thanks to the low cost of living in Rochester, Emily has been working on her finances intentionally for the last couple of years and is pursuing several savings and investing goals—but decided against buying a house. This episode is perfect for anyone considering an MD/PhD program or curious about the mindset of someone pursuing an 8-year-long graduate program. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Emily Przysinda.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:50 Emily R: I am delighted to have joined me on the podcast today, Emily Przysinda. She is an MD/PhD student at the University of Rochester. And since the very beginning, like episode one of this podcast, I have wanted to interview an MD/PhD or an MD/PhD student. And Emily is the first person who has like, come along, who has volunteered to do that. So I’m really excited about this, and just delighted to have her on. So Emily, will you please introduce yourself to us and yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself?

02:17 Emily P: Hi, I’m delighted to be on the podcast, been listening for about a year now, so I’m really excited to be here. So I’m originally from Livonia, New York, which is south of Rochester. I went to Skidmore college in Saratoga Springs, majored in music and neuroscience, and I was also on the swim team there. After that, I worked in a music cognition lab at Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut, and there I solidified my love for human cognitive neuroscience. And I applied to MD/PhD programs while I was there for two years. And then now I’m in the University of Rochester MD/PhD program, or MSTP, which stands for Medical Scientist Training Program. I’ve completed the first two years of medical school and also the first few years of my neuroscience PhD. And so I’m about halfway through, and my project is looking at social language processing in patients with schizophrenia using neuroimaging methods.

03:25 Emily P: So it’s fairly integrated with clinical and research. And yeah, and then also before I get started, I just want to acknowledge my privileges and express gratitude for just a couple of things. My family kind of had modest means, but I’m very lucky that all my needs were met and most of my wants were fulfilled. I learned how to save for big ticket items at a young age. And my life was very rich with relationships, activities, and experiences, especially in nature. And then for funding my undergraduate degree, I was happy and very grateful to get a good financial aid and merit combined scholarship and have around an average amount of student loan debt. And I’m very grateful for some family support with room and board and transportation costs. And I’ve been financially independent from my parents shortly after graduation. And I’m currently a white female and I’m only financially responsible for myself. So that’s just kind of some things that I’m very grateful for and want to get into before we talked about any breakdown of finances and things like that.

How Do Finances Work for an MD/PhD?

04:40 Emily R: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for that context. So I don’t know that all of my listeners will be very familiar with MD/PhD or MSTP programs. So could you please explain like, just in general, like maybe the timeframe and so forth and and of course what the finances are, because I think we all know the finances about PhD programs. Most of us can make some assumptions about the finances of MD programs, but how does the MD/PhD fit, you know, between those two?

05:06 Emily P: So, yeah, it’s actually kind of similar to the PhD except for it’s longer for most programs. And so I’m in a NIH-funded program, and not all programs have funding from this. So it’s a combination of NIH funding and funding from my institution. And so I get a stipend that’s like essentially like a STEM graduate stipend for the full eight years of the program. And just to give you an estimate about that, it’s around $30K, which I think is standard depending on the city that you’re living in. And the PhD is kind of sandwiched in between two years of med school on each side. So you have two years of med school, which is mostly didactic courses and some patient interactions, and then you have the PhD, which is four years.

06:03 Emily P: And then the last two years of MD, which is mostly clinical. So it’s eight years long, and you really try to only keep the PhD to four years, but some people do have longer. And then, in terms of just like a couple of nuances to the finances, the PI is kind of responsibl for your stipend for after the first 21 months of your PhD. So it kind of gives the PIs an incentive to take on an MD/PhD student. You stress to them that it’s four years, or maybe even a little bit less, so you can make that transition back into med school. And you’re encouraged to apply for an F30, which is like the MD/PhD equivalent of an F31 grant. The program here, at least, covers health insurance and disability insurance. And they take over, once you go back to medical school. We also have about a $2,400 stipend for MD/PhD things during the program. So like conferences, test prep, like lab laptops. And there are some student fees, but they’re generally minimal except for the first year and during some of the medical school years. Yeah. So that’s kind of the overall trajectory in terms of finances in the program.

An MD/PhD is Not Just a Free MD

07:37 Emily R: Yeah. And I think at first blush, this seems like, What? Like you get a free MD and you get paid while you’re there, like during both the med school part and the PhD part? That’s incredible! What a deal. Can you tell us why that might be the first reaction, but it shouldn’t be the only reaction to how this program is funded?

07:59 Emily P: Yeah, so it’s definitely a valid reaction, and I think it can be a very good deal, but really only if you like research a lot. Because it’s a very long program, it’s eight years. So the way that I thought about it even going into it is that I more compare it financially to an MD program where you would be funding the MD out of pocket. And so the MD career trajectory will be essentially four years earlier than an MD/PhD’s. So, if you think about what an MD might be making in the four last years of their career, because that would be to assume they might have a more extended career by four years, it’s probably only about maybe a year or two worth of salaries of debt that they take on for this. And more with interest, because that can be a big thing depending on your specialty. But essentially, I say that I pay in time and not money for my MD degree. Just because of the opportunity costs of not having those extra four years of the career. And for that reason, I definitely wouldn’t suggest doing an MD/PhD just because it seems like an awesome deal. You should really like the research, both the research and the human clinical side, because both of these training programs can be fairly brutal. So, definitely want to consider that.

09:35 Emily R: I really like that you noted in that comparison that what we’re really talking about is, in a sense, a four-year shorter career, possibly. So like it’s those end, you know, the last four years of salary that is the difference rather than, you know, your residency salary or whatever you’d be doing in the, you know, most immediately post-degree. But I wonder, and I don’t know if you’ve ever done this, is like playing around with like the compound interest effect on this because you know, it sort of cuts both ways. Because one, if you did the MD instead of the MD/PhD, you again would be out four years earlier and you can get compound interest working for you earlier from your like big MD salary. And of course you’re paying off your debt as well. Versus during the PhD, maybe you can only invest a little bit, but you do have that stipend coming in.

Think of Yourself as an Adult with a Job, Not as a Student

10:18 Emily R: So some early investment is possible, we know of course the massive time value of money. So I don’t know, it cuts both ways, but I think it’d be really, really interesting if someone, for their own situation, you know, played around with those numbers and saw that. But I really like that you emphasized, you know, we’re going to talk about finances today, but in terms of the motivation to do an MD/PhD program, you really want to get both of these degrees and love what you’re doing the whole time. So, you know, you were just mentioning how of course you have this history that you told us at the beginning with like being into like a music and you mentioned being on the swim team, and of course you really want to have both the neuroscience PhD as well as the MD. So what do you think, like, what is your outlook on maintaining your life outside of just being an MD student or a PhD student? And do you think that’s different at all from maybe another PhD student?

11:13 Emily P: Yeah. So I’d say that I’m not sure if it’s necessarily too different from MD and PhD. However, given the length of the program, I think that it’s very important to kind of think of yourself as being an adult with a regular job and not a student. It would be very difficult to postpone this mentality shift for eight years. And I think that’s something that could be valuable for both MD and PhD, but it’s especially important to take that into consideration. So, I consider my program to be a full-time job with my stipend as my income. And then that just helps you to act both in better financial interests, but also able to continue to live your life and not put it on pause because of this program. And so, since it’s such a long program, I would say that you want to secure your support network as soon as possible when you get to med school and especially because med school ramps up really fast and can be very difficult.

12:28 Emily P: There are a few kind of, I guess, areas of personal capita that I would suggest getting up and running as soon as you get there. Or as soon as you can. Academically, I’d say you want to make friends with MDs and MD/PhDs because it’s good to have a group of people to study with. And you might also want to talk to people who are currently in your graduate program that you’re thinking about joining to make sure that’s the program you want to do. And then also establish relationships with your advisory dean and your MSTP or MD/PhD director. And so those are all things that I guess are related academically, but also can be very helpful in your outside life. Also, you want to do the adult thing of setting up your support network for personal health.

Your Health and Support Network

13:25 Emily P: So the two most important thing would be to establish a relationship with a primary care doctor as soon as possible. Even if you don’t necessarily need them, just like make an appointment to like get your prescriptions transferred. And then also find a therapist in the community. I think that every PhD and MD student, or MD/PhD student, should have a therapist because oftentimes, if you actually need a therapist, it’ll take months to get, so you want to find a therapist, maybe you just meet with them every month. And then if something comes up, you can meet with them more often. And then set up the other auxiliary things, dentist, eye doctor, and things like that. So, you want to make sure you’re doing the regular adult things that you should be doing to make sure you that you get support in the program.

14:16 Emily P: And then moving to some other outside of medicine is that you want to make sure you’re maintaining your relationships with friends and family that you already have. If you’re living near your family, which I am, make sure you have boundaries and they know when you can talk to them and see them. And set up regular phone calls and visits and you know, plan to see friends in other cities if you want a vacation. And then finally, you should maintain and pursue potentially additional hobbies outside your med school, graduate school training. Personally, I joined a masters swim team, which is just adults swimming, and it’s really fun. And I made a lot of friends there. I go to a lot of Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra concerts. There are really great tickets for that. And I also sing karaoke. So those are some of my hobbies that I do. And most people have their own kind of hobbies that they do. Two of my previous housemates, they both had their martial arts, horseback riding, and volunteering through religion. So I think it’s very important to kind of set up that support network and then including your hobbies and relationships.

Time Management Approach

15:36 Emily R: The other thing I wanted to follow up on was that, you know, you described that your attitude towards your graduate program is that it’s a full-time job and you’re being paid this stipend for your full-time job. Does full-time job to you mean 40 hours per week? Because definitely you’ve mentioned a lot of great stuff like that you do outside of work. So yeah. I’m just wondering, like what your sort of overall time management approach is.

16:00 Emily P: Yeah. So I think it honestly depends on what stage you’re at. The MD, the whole thing is probably going to be more than 40 hours a week because you’re studying a lot and that really can kind of cut into the outside time. However, I found that you just have to, as long as it’s not like interfering with like required activities and things, you just have to put that time in your schedule, like try to make it in the evening and carve it out, which is what I typically do for things like swimming. I know that on Tuesday and Thursday evenings, I’m going to be at swimming and I’m not going to be studying. So you kind of have to make time, if makes sense. And same with like going to the Rochester Philharmonic, you have to carve out that time for yourself. In grad school, it’s definitely a bit more flexible. And I’d say like, I probably never work the same amount of hours like in consecutive weeks. It always fluctuates. Sometimes it’s more, sometimes it’s less. It depends on deadlines and when I’m running participants and stuff like that. But it’s a similar thing. Like you have to prioritize your hobbies, your relationships, and put them in the calendar and kind of treat them like you would any other commitment.

17:25 Emily R: Yeah. Not dissimilar from a good strategy for your finances as well. Get the big, important things in there in first and kind of let everything else fall around the margins.

Commercial

17:36 Emily R: Emily here, for a brief interlude. This announcement is for prospective and first-year graduate students. My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society, offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s four-step grad boss method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, up-level your productivity, and master time management. I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course titled, “Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School.” It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school. If this all sounds great to you, please register at theacademicsociety.com/emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join Grad School Prep, if you’d like to go a step further. Again, that’s theacademicsociety.com/E M I L Y for my affiliate link for the course. Now, back to our interview.

Role of Finances in Choosing University of Rochester

19:03 Emily R: Let’s talk a little bit more about the money part of it. What role did finances play in your choice of University of Rochester, in particular over perhaps other programs you were admitted to?

19:13 Emily P: So I would say, I guess aside from like kind of the overall picture of paying in time and not money, I definitely chose MD/PhD, I guess I would consider for the right reasons because I really like clinical and research. And I was a bit anxious about taking out a lot of loans for medical school. So this route definitely helped me. But just to reiterate, that’s not the primary reason. I definitely applied to programs that were more in low- to mid-cost of living. I come from kind of a rural town. So like, I wouldn’t necessarily want to live in a big city anyways. But I definitely was looking at places that were a little more, not necessarily rural, but smaller cities. And I guess I chose Rochester, I’m a bit biased here because most of my family is here. And so I was really excited to go to Rochester because of that. But I also got really lucky that it was in a very like low- to mid-cost of living city in Rochester. Yeah, so that’s kind of why I really wanted to come to Rochester, but I say like, you should definitely talk to people who were looking at a lot of other places because I definitely was biased by the family a fair amount.

20:42 Emily R: Yeah, that’s definitely fair. I think you mentioned earlier, your stipend around $30,000 per year. Do MSTP programs vary a lot like with cost of living, or are they in a pretty tight range?

20:58 Emily P: That’s a good question. I’m not entirely sure. I think when I was looking, most of them were around there, but since I didn’t look at some of the higher cost-of-living cities, I’m not sure that they actually increase it all that much for the higher cities. But I wouldn’t quote me on that because I actually didn’t see them. But I think it also might be standardized if they get NIH funding as well. So usually the websites are pretty open about that. But that’s definitely something I would calculate, the cost of living, if there’s some place you really want to live and make sure it’s high enough for you. There are ways to increase it, like getting an F30 grant. Well, I guess it depends on your school. Usually they’ll bump it up a little bit as kind of a reward for getting the grant, but yeah. It really depends on the program.

Financial Goals Pursued with MD/PhD Stipend

21:55 Emily R: So $30,000 a year is a decent stipend, and I think in Rochester goes fairly okay. So, I know you’ve been sort of intentionally working on your finances for the last couple of years and learning a lot. And so what are the financial goals that you’ve been able to pursue with that stipend?

22:14 Emily P: Yeah, so I feel like I live very comfortably on this stipend. I’ve been a very avid saver most of my life. So a lot of my personal finance work has been on instead of trying to like cut back on expenses, it’s more like how do I allocate extra expenses and also transition my money to be able to spend it towards things that I actually enjoy. And maybe still I go with my natural instinct of saving on things that aren’t as important to me. And, yeah, so I would say that actually initially my goal when I started the program is that I wanted to house hack and buy a house. Because I didn’t know that much about personal finance other than like kind of budget and I was saving a lot. But I wanted to house hack.

23:16 Emily P: But then I kind of got into the first few years of medical school and it was kind of crazy and I realized that being a landlord would kind of be a lot of work. And so I kind of shifted away from that. Especially after living in a house with five people during COVID because we had some partners move in temporarily. I decided that I just wanted to live with my partner and not have housemates. So that’s kind of the icing on the cake in what I decided that I didn’t want to house hack anymore. So I decided that I wanted, since if I was just living with my partner, it would be more of a personal residence. And so many finance books that I read say that your house is not an asset, it’s a liability. So I was like, alright, I think that I want to actually buy assets and make some investment decisions instead since I wasn’t going to be house hacking.

24:24 Emily R: So interesting. I’m really glad you brought up this perspective because I am very enthusiastic about house hacking, but I have never done it and I’ve never been in like the position that I was considering it. And I think I, like you, now that I am at a new homeowner, yeah, there’s a lot of work that just goes into owning a home. Not even adding like the landlord aspect on top of it. So, you really have to be up for that. And it can be worth it. Like, especially if you’re, you know, let’s say in your financial situation, you’re looking at house hacking versus having like a side job. Well, the house hack can be your side job and that can make sense, but you have to have the time to be able to do that stuff. So I think that makes so much sense for you and especially, COVID kind of like changing the equation on this.

25:04 Emily R: Like yeah, how many people do you want to live with? And if it’s only going to be two and yeah, house hacking, like that’s actually one of the reasons why I love talking about house hacking. Because I kind of feel like anybody who’s in the position where they could buy a house in graduate school, house hacking makes it like a slam dunk, good financial decision. Whereas it’s more iffy, you know, if it’s really just your personal residence, as you were just saying, you know, you can get lucky or unlucky with the housing market in that case. I know that’s probably what would have happened for me living in Durham had I not house hacked, which I didn’t end up buying overall. But anyway, I’m just really glad to have your perspective on that. Yeah. Living with six other people during COVID sounds like a lot.

25:44 Emily P: Yeah. And also, just, I guess the opposite perspective is that actually my two housemates that I was living with, they actually went on to buy a house. And one of them is house hacking. So it’s definitely something that MD/PhD students can do. They do house hack a lot. But it was just something that I decided not to, and I’m very happy and we live in an apartment complex and when something breaks, the landlords come right away, or the maintenance people come right away, and I’m very happy with that.

Tracking Cashflow, Investing, and Saving

26:17 Emily R: And so when you mentioned that you’re buying actual assets instead of the combo asset liability, does that mean you’re like investing for retirement or investing in other ways? Like what are you doing?

26:29 Emily P: Yeah, so I have a couple different areas. So I’d say like personal finance and investing has kind of been like a hobby that I was somewhat interested in before COVID, but during COVID it’s actually become a lot bigger and I’ve had a lot of time to do some reading and listening to podcasts and stuff. And so, I mean the first step to all this, I would say, was definitely budgeting or tracking your cashflow if you hate the budget word. And I take a very hands-on approach to this because I think it’s really fun. And I kind of try to make it a game. And so, like knowing your cashflow is the first thing. Otherwise, before I knew exactly what my cashflow, even though I knew where my money was going, I didn’t know how much I had to spend for the future and such.

27:25 Emily P: That’s given me a lot of freedom to put the money towards where I actually wanted to go. And oh, I also started tracking my net worth, which is inspired by your emails. So that’s been fun. So those are like really the basic building blocks before anyone should start investing. So I just want to say that I did those first. So yeah, but in terms of what I’m actually investing in, I do have a Roth IRA, and I love my Roth IRA. And I learned, I think from your blog actually, that I was able to open one, and I was very excited about that. And yeah, it’s been a little bit of a challenge. I kind of try to challenge myself to fund that every year fully. Before this, I did have some cash, because I had a lot saved up for the potential house.

28:20 Emily P: So I put it in a regular brokerage account. Some stocks, mostly ETFs. And so I am in the process of kind of trying to fund the Roth IRA with my money that’s incoming. And then when I can’t make the limit, to supplement it with a brokerage account. And then finally I’m saving for some of my future expenses. Medical school can, some parts of it, can be very expensive, such as standardized tests and residency applications. I was actually told to save like $10,000 for residency application. So, and it might be changed a little bit because it’s potentially virtual, but we don’t know if that’s changing. Saving for a new used car, and for paying off student loans, which I chose to defer until after. And it’s definitely tricky to find the right vessel for this savings goal for like about three to five years out. And I actually did something that was maybe a little bit not in the normal, it’s like a specially designed whole life insurance banking policy. And I won’t go into the details, but it’s definitely something that’s a bit controversial in personal finance, but I researched it heavily and it made sense for me, but I definitely would not recommend unless you like fully research it and alternatives for that. But those are the kind of major places where my cashflow is going, the Roth IRA, and the savings for future expenses.

29:50 Emily R: Yeah. Those sound like incredible goals. And yeah, $6K to a Roth IRA per year, either out of cashflow or out of your existing investments is incredible, setting yourself up. Yeah, I hadn’t heard about, or I hadn’t thought about using a whole life policy for sort of shortish, mediumish term expenses. I assume you’re then going to borrow against the policy to do that. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. We won’t go into it, but like, as you said, there’s not really a good like solution out there for that kind of timeframe. So it’s not surprising to me that you would like, you know, kind of get creative with that.

Career Paths for MD/PhDs

30:23 Emily R: You know, you just mentioned like doing a residency, and I’m wondering is a residency definitely the next step for all MD/PhDs? And, you know, overall, what is the career path for MD/PhDs in comparison to only MDs or only PhDs?

30:38 Emily P: That’s a great question. In certain situations, like interviews and things like that, it’s definitely the next step. But there are a lot of other options out there. But I mean, generally, you’re going to need a residency if you’re wanting to practice clinically at all. Even if you decide to do a full-time like academic lab, if you want to have any proportion medical, clinical things in your work, you’re going to need to do a residency. And they’re usually four to six years long and they can be pretty intensive depending on the field. Sometimes there are research intensive. So the ideal MD/PhD kind of percentage breakdown, which is somewhat arbitrary, is that you’ll spend 80% running your own lab and 20% in clinical doing clinical work.

31:34 Emily R: And that would be in like an academic or like a hospital setting. Is that right?

31:38 Emily P: Yes. Typically in an academic hospital combined setting. So like a larger institution. I’d say, like that’s not, I mean, I think some people do that. I think it’s a very arbitrary number and it might be very difficult. You might end up working, you know, 150% instead of a hundred percent, which can be difficult, especially if the clinical work can just be like pretty brutal and like kind of time suck your time. So if you do something like that, they say to be very purposeful in like protecting your research time.

The 80/20 Myth

32:20 Emily R: So is that like, so when you’re talking about, okay, so the ideal outcome career for an MD/PhD is this 80% running your own lab, 20% clinical breakdown, but is that like telling a PhD student that their career should be a tenure-track professorship? Like, is it that kind of, I guess what I’m asking is what are the actual job prospects for MD/PhDs coming out of residency to get a position like that? Like what percentage actually get a position like that versus go on to do something else?

32:52 Emily P: I would say, I don’t know the stats, there are definitely like papers on this topic, but I would say, this would be like you do your residency and then you try to get a full tenure-track position with part-clinical time. And I’d say, I think oftentimes people end up doing one or the other. I think it can be very difficult. Sometimes it depends on the field of medicine you go into as well. So it’s really all over the place. So I guess what I’m trying to say is that you can kind of do whatever you want. There are a lot of options with this degree. So like academia, academic medicine, and clinical are just like two of the, probably most common, fields that people go into. But also there are some options in like industry, particularly, in health tech, I guess pharmaceuticals, but that’s a whole other basket of worms. So yeah, but I’d say that there are there options, but essentially you do have to do that residency, typically. There are some nonclinical roles, but you generally want to do the residency and then, you know, pick full-time clinical or part-time clinical. And then I’d say like more of these other options might come later in your career or might be like a part-time side hustle or things like that.

34:23 Emily R: Yeah, very interesting. I guess I’m just going back to what you said, you know, near the beginning of our conversation was, you know, you’re paying in time and not money. And like, I hope that you all know by the time you get to, you know, choosing a residency, like whether that’s going to play into your future career, because that is a long time and a big salary opportunity cost to spend doing a residency, if it’s not ultimately something that plays into your long-term career plan. So tough decisions. And what about you personally, like, do you want to go for that, like 80/20 academic medicine kind of split or like, what are you thinking?

35:03 Emily P: I personally am more interested in having, so my research right now, even is fairly integrative with clinical and research, so I would like to have more of like a clinical aspect to it, and then do some collaborative research and really use kind of my skills and knowledge as a physician to inform clinical research. And I think that is very doable in my field of like psychiatry or neurology, which is currently two of the options that I’m looking at. But I’m also not a hundred percent sure. I’d say there are like a lot more and more collaborations or collaborative PI labs. I’m not sure I’d want to be like the single PI in the lab, just if I want to maintain clinical. So yeah, I’d say I’m interested in kind of both, but maybe more integrating them. And I also really am interested in health tech things. So maybe I’d be interested in starting kind of my own business or consulting, but that would be later on in my career after I had established myself clinically.

Talk to Upperclassmen for Advice

36:19 Emily R: Yeah. Well, thank you for giving us that peek into your plans. Do you have any go-to resources on finances for MD/PhDs in particular? It’s so niche, I’m wondering if any exist?

36:32 Emily P: So I haven’t come across any yet that are specific to MD/PhDs. It might exist. But I’ve been able to get a lot of what I need out of out of your content, specifically geared towards PhDs, in addition to numerous podcasts and audio books that are in personal finance. I haven’t come across anything that’s specifically geared towards MD/PhDs. I generally get a lot of my advice from talking to upperclassmen, just either casually to find out what they’re doing. I had a neighbor who was an upperclassman nearby and he would give me advice about the program and also sometimes financial things. I guess if there was something I really wasn’t sure about from the MD or MD/PhD perspective, I’d like maybe email someone and ask them specific questions. We also have like, MD/PhD it’s called like a blue book for incoming students with certain things that with many things, including personal finance things. And there are some seminars where you can ask upperclassmen different questions and stuff. So I’d say it’s more by word of mouth from what I’ve seen. However, a lot of the resources geared towards PhDs and just personal finance in general, really applied to the situation of MD/PhDs.

Best Financial Advice for An Early-Career MD/PhD

37:57 Emily R: Yeah, that makes sense. And I love the advice of like, just talk to real people who have been in your shoes a year or two back and have like the real, you know, high-quality information that definitely applies to you. So great, great, great. Do you have any other great advice? What is your best financial advice for another early career MD/PhD student or MD/PhD? Your best financial advice for that person?

38:20 Emily P: I would say my best advice is something I touched on earlier is just shifting your mindset from student to adult. It’s just way too long to consider yourself a student and not start living your life. I’d say that it might be difficult sometimes. So you should try and shut work off after you come home. Whatever hours you may need to work, just like try your best to shut it off and maintain your life outside your graduate program. And I think that if you kind of separate your program and your in your life, to some degree, it’ll help you financially and also help you develop your relationships and your hobbies, and also for maintaining your mental and physical health.

39:07 Emily R: Yes. Fantastic! Thank you so much for telling us that. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective in this interview. It’s been fantastic.

39:15 Emily P: Yeah, great! It’s my pleasure. I’m so happy to be here.

Outtro

39:23 Emily R: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

The Tech Entrepreneuroscientist on Happiness and Financial Independence

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Sharena Rice, who recently completed her PhD in neuroscience at the University of Michigan. At the start of grad school, Sharena defined what she considers “the good life” and made sure that she lived according to her values. She committed herself to simple living so that she could invest over half of her stipend and pursue adventures. One element of Sharena’s good life is fulfilling work, so she became involved with five start-ups during grad school to gain experience with entrepreneurship. Don’t miss this unique and insightful interview!

Links Mentioned in the Episode

the tech entrepreneuroscientist on happiness and financial independence

Teaser

00:00 Sharena: If compound interest works in this way, and I can reasonably expect this amount if things perform averagely, then this is how my future will turn out if I save an extra $5 a day, for instance. And seeing how little tweaks could make a big difference.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 12, and today my guest is Dr. Sharena Rice, who recently completed her PhD in neuroscience at the University of Michigan. At the start of grad school, Sharena defined what she considers “the good life” and made sure that she lived according to her values. She committed herself to simple living so that she could invest over half of her stipend and pursue adventures. One element of Sharena’s good life is fulfilling work, so she became involved with five start-ups during grad school to gain experience with entrepreneurship. Don’t miss this unique and insightful interview! Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Sharena Rice.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:19 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Sharena Rice. She recently defended her PhD in neuroscience at the University of Michigan. And she’s going to tell us a really exciting, big financial story about what she’s done with her finances during graduate school, and also what’s coming up next. She’s been involved with entrepreneurship, which is super exciting. So Sharena, thank you so much for volunteering to be on the podcast. And will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

01:43 Sharena: Thank you so much, Emily. I have recently defended my PhD in neuroscience from the University of Michigan. I like to refer to myself as a tech entrepreneuroscientist because I’m both a technology entrepreneur and a neuroscientist. I have roles in five different startups ranging from co-founder and a C-suite executive to advisor. And it’s been a rewarding journey.

02:10 Emily: Yeah. I’m excited to hear more about that a little bit later on. So give us an idea, like briefly, like where did you go to undergrad? Of course I mentioned University of Michigan for grad school. Like, what’s been your educational background?

02:23 Sharena: For undergrad, I studied biochemistry and molecular biology and minored in philosophy and psychology, and felt myself being pulled in these three seemingly completely different directions. But I realized that I could combine them all by being a neuroscientist. So I did a Post-baccalaureate Research Education Program, the PREP program at the University of Michigan and decided to stay for graduate school.

Money Mindset at the Start of Post-Bacc

02:51 Emily: That’s perfect. I did a post-bacc as well at the NIH before starting at Duke. And it was really, you know, during that post-bacc, I had just graduated from college, like you did, that I started learning about personal finance. Because it was for me the first time I’d had like a semi full-time income to deal with. Tell me a little bit about your money mindset, where you stood with respect to your finances, at the start of that post-bacc.

03:17 Sharena: Before my post-bacc, when I was an undergraduate, I was doing various tutoring gigs because I realized that I could make a lot more money by tutoring on my own, rather than through some kind of agency. So I started budgeting things and analyzing things and thinking through hours and how things would work out. I was wondering, okay, how do I want to make things of my life? How can I create more options for the future? Even as a person who is thinking of going into graduate school. So I read a bunch about personal finance. I got to learn about how wealth is created. Went to a lot of entrepreneurship events, went to many things about community leaders and engagement. So, one thing that I’ve realized there is that a lot of times, the smartest people, they’re not making the most money. And yet at the same time, some people who have been making a lot of money, they’re not the smartest people.

04:26 Sharena: So then, it seems like this different dimension to a lifestyle, and to the way that a person operates and carries themselves. So I had this experience as an undergrad, making these financial models in Excel spreadsheets, just for fun at first. I wanted to be able to predict the future by mathing stuff up. So I got to do that some more as a post-bacc, seeing, okay, if compound interest works in this way, and I can reasonably expect this amount, if things perform averagely, then this is how my future will turn out if I save an extra $5 a day, for instance. And seeing how little tweaks could make a big difference.

05:12 Emily: So, I love that you, you know, frame this around, like you wanting to understand how wealth was created, and I totally understand why you went down this entrepreneurial route after investigating that question. So I really want to hear how these journeys of like the PhD and entrepreneurship come together later on. I also noticed in your phrasing just there, are you a Millennial Revolution fan?

05:33 Sharena: Yes.

05:34 Emily: Okay. Yes. So for those not familiar, they have this catch phrase that’s like math stuff, I’m substituting a word, math stuff up. So, they have a very sort of unconventional approach, right? They don’t accept conventional wisdom. They reanalyze everything. Have you adopted that as well?

05:53 Sharena: Yeah. There are many things in the financial independence retire early community that I think of not as a person who necessarily wants to retire early, because if I did retire, then I would just be making more technology anyway, because this is fun for me. But as a person who wants to be doing what I’m doing because I want to do it. So that, okay, whatever job I’m in, I will be bringing my all to it because it is my choice. And wouldn’t it be great if everyone just kind of lived that way, where they’re going to work because they want to be there and they could be doing a zillion other things at that time, but it’s their choice to be working with these particular people in this particular company?

Money Mindset Growth in Grad School

06:45 Emily: I love how you phrase that. And that is such an ideal to be working toward, and certainly one that’s espoused by the financial independence community. So tell me, also, you know, we talked about your financial mindset at the start of your post-bacc. So how did that change over the course of graduate school, or hasn’t?

07:03 Sharena: It has sort of changed, to some extent. Alright. As a graduate student, I have lived in a Buddhist temple for 22 months. And during that time, I got the sense of alright, what does it really take to be happy? Because a lot of times people, they think, “Oh, if I have X amount of money up to a certain point, then I will be happier.” But if you think about it, some monastics are the happiest people in the world, despite having taken a vow of poverty. Alright. If that’s the case, then what if I just leveraged that idea where I could find joys in all kinds of things that don’t actually take money and then save a lot and it compounds over time, so that I’m just doing exactly what I want to do?

08:00 Emily: Yes. Amazing, amazing insight to receive, especially I would say, you know, early on in life to have that, because that’s something that a lot of people never come to, or it takes decades and decades of chasing after the wrong stuff to find happiness before they finally get around to the insight that you have. So that’s incredible. So you told me, when you volunteered for this interview that you saved at least 50% of your grad student stipend, on average. What? How?

Saving ~50% of Student Stipend

08:32 Sharena: I think it’s 53% at this point, and the way that I did that was, alright at the beginning, I was reading these personal finance books and doing these financial model things and thinking, okay, there are very small things that make a very large difference. So for example, I could have lived closer to my laboratory then I actually lived, and it would have cost more, but I could live slightly further. Let’s say that I need to walk an extra three minutes a day or something like that. Well, in that case, I could get a little bit of extra exercise just built into my lifestyle, but also I’m saving money by living a little bit further away. So things like that. Well, there’s the question of what do you value, and is the way that you’re spending your money reflecting those values? I have chosen to invest quite a bit in the future because that’s what I wanted to do.

09:40 Emily: I totally concur with what you’re saying. And I think that once you identify what you value, in your case, investing for the future, it makes you excited to be able to put money towards that. And it doesn’t seem like such a big sacrifice to be cutting back on your spending or choosing not to spend in some other areas of a budget. But I love the philosophical point of view, but I want to get like a little bit more practical. So for example, can we start with, do you mind sharing what your stipend was throughout graduate school?

10:08 Sharena: In my first year, the stipend was $29.6K and that eventually rose to $33K at the end.

10:19 Emily: So I think of that as like a very decent stipend. Nothing out of this world, but certainly in Ann Arbor, sort of a moderate cost of living city. It’s a decent amount of money to make, but still being able to invest and save half of that is kind of a big accomplishment. So you mentioned, you know, you were paying for housing, right, but you just chose strategically. So you were paying a little bit less for housing maybe than some of your other options. Let’s go through just like the big expenses for average Americans. So we touched on housing. What about transportation?

Biking and Cutting Food Costs

10:51 Sharena: I decided that when I was moving out to Michigan, that I wanted to have a simple life or at least simple in terms of material possessions. So my first year when I was here, as a post-bacc, I didn’t have a bed frame, for instance. I just had a mattress on the floor because I didn’t know exactly where I would be for grad school. And when it came to transportation, I just rode a bicycle around. I’ve lost a lot of weight as a grad student and also was able to get from place to place. People ask, “Oh, Michigan has snow. How do you deal with that?” The answer is, “I bike anyway, the roads are cleared. Salt happens. I just bike.”

11:36 Emily: I’m glad you headed off that question. Okay. So no car, cycling lifestyle. What about food? Do you have any particular kind of diet that you follow that happens to be low cost? Or what are your strategies around there?

11:49 Sharena: If you think about it, a lot of places in world where there aren’t that many health issues like cancer and diabetes, they have this really simple diet of, they just pretty much eat rice and vegetables and they don’t have that much meat to them or anything like that because that’s what is available to them. So then I’ve pretty much been eating like a peasant and being just happy with that. Learned to make a really good stir fry, learned to make really good lemon garlic pasta.

Investment Strategy

12:25 Emily: Yeah. So I think we can clearly see from those three big categories that you just sort of slotted yourself on the low-cost end of the spectrum that you could spend in each of those areas. So you mentioned this 50% savings rate, investing rate. What were you investing in? Was it like the stuff I talk about all the time, like index funds and Roth IRAs, or are you doing that plus other stuff? Let us know what your investment strategy is.

12:48 Sharena: At first, I just invested in some stocks from companies that I liked and thought had good leadership to them. So for example, Costco notoriously treats their employees well, and I liked that. So I invested in them. And the Home Depot, well, it seems to be quite a good company, too. So I invested in some individual stocks at first, and then learned that there was this thing called index investing and then switched mostly to that. I also own some real estate investment trusts and some worthy bonds and a tiniest amount of crypto. I just bought $20 worth of Bitcoin for fun, and then laughed as it went up and down and up and down.

13:38 Emily: Yeah. So I like that. So like bulk of your investments are tried and true index funds, hands-off approach, but you have these few other holdings that you’ve, you know, intentionally selected that are sometimes interesting to track. Okay, well, that’s awesome for your investment strategy.

Commercial

13:57 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Our next live discussion and Q&A call is on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to PFforPhDs.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

Living the “Good Life”

15:09 Emily: You also told me when you volunteered that you have been focused on living the good life on, as we were just saying, less than 50% of your stipend. What does it mean to you to live the good life and how have you been doing that during grad school?

15:24 Sharena: I think that the good life, it is a life that I am doing fulfilling things in that I’m growing in and that I feel connected with other people in. So part of this is, alright. What does it mean to live life to the fullest? I think that it’s investments, not only in terms of money, but also investments in other things that compound interest such as health, and friends and family, and making connections. But also there’s the shenanigans. And that’s a lot of fun, too. I went to Puerto Rico with nothing but a backpack this one time, because people were telling me you need a vacation. I was working in lab on Thanksgiving this one time and thought, well, I have to see the world. I’ve never been out of the country before. So I’m going to book a trip to Rome. So that’s exactly what I did. And then eventually I went to Rome.

16:29 Sharena: But also, when it comes to the good life, there is work as a big part of it. I think a lot of us, a lot of our identity is in what we do for work. I was very lucky to be in a laboratory that was just starting up. So I could be at the forefront of bringing new processes to life. And I just loved that, even though it may have been frustrating to some people who just want to move on with their lives. And they want to get into a place where everything is already set up for them. But working with machines, that was a big part of it, too. I just love machines and the ways that they work and how animals and machines could create systems.

17:22 Emily: I think that those elements that you identified of a good life are ones that are probably to some degree shared by just about everybody. But I definitely encourage the listener, and I need to do this as well, just to periodically, like, think about what brings you joy, what brings you satisfaction, and then do that next step of connecting, “Well, how do these things that I want to pursue in my life, that I want to have in my life, how does having money or spending money help me fulfill those? Or are there ways to fulfill these without spending a lot of money?” Some of the things you mentioned are, you know, such intangibles like connections with friends and family, like sometimes money can help that, but it definitely isn’t required to do so. So I think all of these things are, you know, achievable at whatever level of income that you’re at. You just have to find a way to fit it in with your lifestyle at that time, which you clearly have done.

Entrepreneurship Journey

18:13 Emily: So let’s talk next about your entrepreneurship experience. You know, there’s been a theme of that already through this interview of finding fulfilling work and, “Hey, even if you had infinite choices because of your finances, you know, because you’re financially independent, you would still choose to work in some capacity.” Tell us, you know, how you got involved with these like five companies that you mentioned earlier and just what’s your entrepreneurship journey been during grad school?

18:35 Sharena: I received a message out of the blue on LinkedIn this one time from the founder of a computer vision company for pedestrian behavior prediction. He wanted to meet up with me. He was in Ann Arbor. I was in an Ann Arbor. So we met up and we talked. And he showed me what he currently had in terms of the pedestrian behavior software. On the spot, I came up with several ways that it could be improved. And to me it just made a lot of sense. So then he offered me the opportunity to be his co-founder. And from then on, we continued co-founding this company and building it up more and more and more. We have been a fantastic team, where he goes out and he gives a lot of pitches and manages a lot of the day-to-day stuff while I have been a grad student who has had to mostly work on lab things. But this worked out because a lot of the things that I did were about ideation and about intellectual property and things that were not bound to a certain time of the day.

20:00 Emily: So that’s one of the companies that you co-founded, then. Can you just tell us briefly, maybe a couple other examples of how you got involved with some of these other companies, especially for someone who’s thinking, wow, I’d love to get involved with entrepreneurship as a grad student, how that happened?

20:14 Sharena: The second company that I co-founded, that was a vertical spinoff for devops and for freelancers. So, the second company came out of the first company. As for the rest of them, the first company that I started advising, that actually came about because I saw that they had a product, I signed up to be a tester for it, and I wrote in the comments box, “Would be interested in helping the founders.” We had a wonderful conversation, and I became their advisor. Then, I started talking with people on the Clubhouse App, eventually, about technology. Got into lots and lots of conversations, which eventually evolved into Zoom conversations, which eventually, at the end of those conversations, often led to offers of, “Wait, I’m starting a company soon. Would you be interested in working with us on some sort of development.” Usually a development, of something between a machine and a human in the loop, which is exactly what I love. So then I said yes to them.

Funding Structure in Grad School

21:28 Emily: So I would just very broadly sum that up as like networking, and just like being open to conversations, offering help. I mean, it sounds like you offered help initially in at least two of these scenarios without yet any expectation of a return, but just putting value out there and some good things came back from it. So I understand that you were not able to be paid by any of these companies because of something about your funding structure. Would you tell us a little bit more about that?

21:59 Sharena: Yeah. My graduate program does not allow anyone to receive money or equity in exchange for work for a company outside of the university while they’re still a student. So there’s the question of, okay, given that this is the case, then how do I set things up so that things will work out. And the answer is, work with legal documentation, and just create a vesting structure so that right after you graduate, then that’s when a cliff happens and then you will receive your funding, your equity, your compensation, at that point.

22:40 Emily: I mean this as a complete compliment, but that seems like such a loophole, right? Because like you’re clearly putting in the time, the work, adding your expertise during the time of your graduate program. In your case, you still finished, it’s all good, right? Like it didn’t detract from that PhD journey. But you just arranged for the payment to happen later. And I give this to you as a compliment because I think it’s a great creative solution to this problem in case anybody else is running into it, but also want to voice that I completely disagree with your program. My basic philosophy around this is like, if you’re doing well in your program and you’re advancing and you’re doing the work that needs to be done, and your advisor’s happy with you, the university should keep its nose out of the rest of your business. In terms of whether you’re earning money or not, or equity or not, or whatever you want to do with the rest of your time should be yours. That’s my position. Do you know if this has any motivation in terms of like the university can then claim ownership over like the company? Is that the reason why they have that kind of verbiage?

Consider Grad Programs that Encourage Direct Experiences

23:39 Sharena: I think that they have it because of the way that academia used to work and how academics or people who are in PhD programs used to be thought of. It used to be thought of that a person has to just work, work, work on their thesis, and that that is enough. But if you actually want to make it as an entrepreneur, how do you do that without having actual experience? My experience makes me very rare. There aren’t very many PhDs who are just graduating from their program with this much experience, as an entrepreneur. A person can take classes. I was encouraged to take classes when I said that I wanted to be an entrepreneur. But no, they didn’t want me to actually do anything in a company. But I wanted to be an entrepreneur, partly because I wanted to do change the world in a positive way to promote road safety, for instance, with my pedestrian behavior prediction company.

24:47 Emily: Yeah. I am so glad that you shared this experience with us because I think it’s really instructive. Like if anybody else like you, and I’m not criticizing you by saying this, but if anybody else like you knows that they’re quite interested in pursuing entrepreneurship during the graduate program, once you’re going around and interviewing and talking to various advisors or whatever, like that’s something to bring up. Does your program have a prohibition on me starting a company or me having equity in a company that I advise during the course of this program. And, you know, maybe use that to help you make a decision about where you should end up in terms of a graduate program. I am a little bit surprised to hear about that from Michigan.

What’s Next for You?

25:23 Emily: Let’s talk about what’s next, then. You just said that you’re a unique kind of PhD with this sort of experience. What is the next step in your career, having just defended?

25:33 Sharena: Given that I have positions in five different companies, I think that I need to create a portfolio that I will call Yellow Pill Ventures. There’s this narrative sometimes that you can either make a profit or you can make a positive difference in the world. But I think that the two can really come together, and that can be by premise of my portfolio. Aside from Yellow Pill Ventures, I will also be pursuing a career in big tech. And the reason why big tech is because they already have the infrastructures place to bring ideas to life quickly. It’s not like we have to wait to hire software developers, for instance, but that they are already within the company. They’re ready to receive work. So between the two, I think of it as Nassim Nicholas Taleb’s Barbell Strategy of you put 80 to 90% of your time into something that’s completely stable, and you put 10 to 20% of your time into moonshot things, but that there’s not very much in the middle in terms of risk. That way, if the moonshots just do not pan out, then you are perfectly fine. If your perfectly fine thing, well, it’s not enough for you because you still have ideas that just are not relevant to your so-called real job. Then, well, they’re still manifested in the world with this possibility of actually taking off.

27:11 Emily: I love that idea. I love that you shared that analogy, and I think it pairs so well with FIRE, right? You have your job, like you had your stipend, you know, during graduate school. You’re doing all the great things to put yourself on the track for financial independence. And at the same time, you’re taking, well maybe not taking risks, but you have those possibilities of moonshots, like you were just saying. So I love that approach. Where can people find you in case they’re thinking, “Oh gosh, Sharena would be perfect for my company”?

27:41 Sharena: You can find me on LinkedIn. I am Sharena Rice. S H A R E N A and then space, R I C E. And I am @SharenaRice on Twitter as well. And on Clubhouse.

27:56 Emily: Absolutely. Perfect. I will note that we’re recording this in August, 2021. So possibly by the time it’s come out, someone might go to your LinkedIn profile and find that you’re already on to your next big job, your next big position. But in case you are still looking, they should check you out.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

28:10 Emily: Okay. Well, let’s conclude with the question that I ask of all of my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

28:19 Sharena: The answer to that is just start. A person does not need to know everything. They don’t really need to know, “Okay. What are absolutely all of the investment options? What is the exact risk of everything.” But rather, “Okay, what is something that’s reasonable, that I feel comfortable with?” That’s a good place to start. There’s a narrative in academia, it seems, that grad students, they shouldn’t care about money. Or that that’s kind of a problem for their future self to think about rather than their current self. But habits, they compound over time. Mindsets, they compound over time and spread. So, it’s good to just start where you are and to just learn where you can. And actually start conversations with the people in your life who may know something or not know anything about finances, just to make it more of a conversation rather than something that people are just hushed about.

29:36 Emily: I love that advice. I love how we saw in this part of your story that you shared today, we saw that advice reflected. And this has been a really thought-provoking interview for me. So thank you so much, Sharena, for joining me.

29:48 Sharena: Thank you so much, Emily!

Outtro

29:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This PhD Invests According to Her Personality

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Natalia Bielczyk, a PhD-turned-solopreneur who helps researchers step into fulfilling careers outside of academia. Natalia started investing in a variety of sectors during her PhD training, finding success in some areas and disaster in others. She shares her hard-won lessons into how to invest according to your individual personality and not be influenced by marketers and trends. Natalia emphasizes the importance of building financial stability prior to starting to apply for jobs and presents a unique framework for choosing among post-PhD career and financial priorities.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

How This PhD Invests According to Her Personality

Teaser

00:00 Natalia: As long as I was on the safe side and I was investing in real estate and the stock exchange, so more traditional markets, I was doing very well and I was always beating the market. But once I went to these speculative markets like crypto, like I kind of fell into this trap where, you know, your lizard brain takes over and then your intelligence and your like knowledge about people in the world doesn’t matter anymore. Because you go with your greed and fear and this kind of takes over you. And you start making really stupid decisions.

Introduction

00:39 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 11, and today my guest is Dr. Natalia Bielczyk, a PhD-turned-solopreneur who helps researchers step into fulfilling careers outside of academia. Natalia started investing in a variety of sectors during her PhD training, finding success in some areas and disaster in others. She shares her hard-won lessons into how to invest according to your individual personality and not be influenced by marketers and trends. Natalia emphasizes the importance of building financial stability prior to starting to apply for jobs and presents a unique framework for choosing among post-PhD career and financial priorities. Earlier, on the day I’m recording this, I was interviewed for the Vitamin PhD podcast. That interview will be published in January 2022, approximately. It reminded me how much I love working with other podcasters and creating this kind of content not just on my own feed. I would love to connect with other podcasters in the academic space, particularly ones with U.S. audiences. You most likely listen to such podcasts. Can you recommend any podcasts to me or even introduce me to another host as a potential guest? Please hit me up over email at [email protected] or on Twitter @PFforPhDs. By the way, no need to connect me with Dear Grad Student as we already have an interview swap in the works! But any other recommendations would be excellent. Thank you so much!

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:23 Emily: I’m so excited to share with you today an interview with Dr. Natalia Bielczyk. She is a PhD-turned-solopreneur who helps other PhDs and researchers transition into careers that are a great fit for them. And she has had a lot of really interesting sort of financial experiences, especially regarding mindset, both when she was in academia and now as an entrepreneur. And we’re just going to get a lot out of this conversation today. So I’m really excited to introduce Natalia. Will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

02:53 Natalia: Thank you so much, Emily, for your kind invitation and for the great introduction. Thank you so much. And what can I say? Indeed, I finished a PhD in computational neuroscience, and since a few years I’m helping indeed researchers in finding a new way in their lives and it’s a very exciting career path, I have to say, and very rewarding as well. In the meantime, I wrote a book entitled, “What is out there for me? The landscape of post-PhD career tracks”. I think the title is self-explanatory. And I also recently created an aptitude test called the Odyssey test, or the Ontology of ValueTM, and it’s meant to help professionals, PhDs, but not only, in finding the right working environment for them, for themselves, and also the right role to play, given their personality, values, and natural working style.

03:47 Natalia: And I’m very bullish on this test because it’s working really well. And it’s a result of two two full years of work. And I’m very excited for this premiere that actually happened like a few weeks ago. And other than that, I indeed have a lot of interest in personal finances and I find it a very important aspect. You cannot really tell these areas of life apart. Like when you talk about career, it’s hard not to talk about finances because it conditions your decisions. And that’s also what I would like to talk about today a little bit, because it’s hard to also give good career advice to someone who is desperate to get a job because they have an empty account. And I always talk about it in the courses and also in the talks I’m doing for PhDs, because this is a very important aspect of career building. So I’m very excited that I can be here today and talk a little bit about that.

Financial Experiences Overview

04:43 Emily: Yes, we’re so excited to dive more into that. Before we get into these more sort of specific thoughts that you wanted to share, can you give us a bit of a background or an overview of what your financial experiences have been, both while you were pursuing the PhD and since, so that we know some topical areas that will come up later on?

05:01 Natalia: Yes, actually indeed I come from a family where finances were not topics that were often discussed. I think both my parents are more idealistic and they believe in creating value by virtue of like using your own hands and actually working hard rather than saving and investing money which is a pity, I think. But indeed when I came to the university as an undergrad, I fully focused on my studies initially. And then, only then, in my mid-twenties, I realized that, you know, it’s better like in the long run to think about your savings and to invest them. And I actually have to say that I had some beginner’s luck because when I first got to investing in the stock exchange, I think I made a few really good bets.

05:57 Natalia: And my strategy initially was to look into, by the way, I’m not a financial advisor, just a little disclaimer. So my initial bet was just looking into companies that have good value that have like rather luxurious products. And I personally believe that these products are good. I use them, myself. Like good clothing brands, and video games. Everything that I could trust myself as a client. And I had quite good shots there. And then, so I initially thought, well, I have to be good at this because every single time I’m out beating the market. So for a few years in a row, like I was making 60, 80, a hundred percent per year. And I was like, oh, I’m a genius, apparently. But then, you know, I also realized that, really, it’s not that I am overly like a talented investor.

Real Estate Investment

06:53 Natalia: It’s more that I kind of personally fit that type of investment. I found these few companies that I was absolutely sure about at the right moment. And I had a little bit of luck. And in fact in the long run, investing is so much more than that. But in my grad school, I also have to say that I was one of the few people in my environment that spotted the opportunity when the housing market was recovering in 2014, 2015. And back then, it was still not very popular, especially among PhD students, to buy their own properties. But I have to say that I was one of the first who must have noticed the opportunity, because the mortgage capability was going up, the interest rates were going down at this point. So I saw the window of opportunity to get my own property when I was still a second-year PhD student.

07:45 Natalia: So that was a great opportunity. And back then, I was thinking of myself as a future professor in neuroscience, and I wanted to live here next to the university. So I had a very clear picture of where I want to live and where I want to buy property. And I have to say that I hacked the system because this area was not the cheapest, but I figured out how to avoid bidding against other other candidates for houses. So I basically determined where I want to buy property, and then I distributed leaflets with information that I am this nice person who studies neuroscience and I want to do great research in this house and I really need some calm place to live where I can do my awesome research on human brain. And I have to say that I spent a month distributing these leaflets in mailboxes around the quarter, and about 10 people contacted me and they were willing to sell me the house, like, you know like by a handshake.

08:48 Natalia: So without bidding, without competition, I could buy quite a few good houses this way. So I was also the only person who kind of figured out that it’s possible this way, and that allowed me to buy a house way below the market value and avoid the bidding, avoid the competition. And that was also, yeah, I’m still proud of it because yeah, at that time, I could not afford to do it in like a usual way by competing with other bidders. So this was my only chance and it worked and I have this house until this day, it’s great. And I also have some passive income from it. I have some rental room. So that also helped me, like in more difficult times after my contract expired, it was a source of passive income.

The Dangers of Speculative Markets

09:37 Natalia: So I have to say that this was one of the best decisions I ever made. And then after my contract expired, I also had some bad decisions because I went into much more speculative markets. So as long as I was on the safe side and I was investing in real estate and the stock exchange, so more traditional markets, I was doing very well, and I was always beating the market. But once I went to these speculative markets like crypto, like I kind of fell into this trap where, you know, your lizard brain takes over. And then your intelligence and your like knowledge about people in the world doesn’t matter anymore because you kind of go with your greed and fear. And this kind of takes over you, and you start making really stupid decisions.

10:29 Natalia: And also, I have to say that I was quite naive after my PhD, because I was not used to the environment where people can tell you, like they have vile intentions. Like they will tell you things that they never intend to do, because honestly, researchers, you know, some of them might have difficult personalities, but at the end of the day, they have good intentions. And I was always surrounded by honest people who have pure intentions. And if they commit to something, they will do it. And when I found myself in speculative markets, I lost all my money also because I was trusting the wrong people. I was just very naive. So, it was a really painful lesson for me.

11:15 Natalia: And I have to say that now I know that there is no such thing as a good investor or bad investor. There are so many different ways of investing and you have to figure out who you are, what your strengths are and what types of investments will work best for you. And now when I invest again, I always look into value. And I think in the future I will become more of a value investor. So, it’s definitely, I’m not into trading. I’m very bad at this. I’m too impulsive. And now I know what my weaknesses are. And in the long run, I’ll just orient myself towards the markets and opportunities where I know that I have some grasp on what’s actually going on. So like, I had a lot of painful lessons to take. But also, one thing I learned is that indeed there is no winning strategy. There is no algorithm. Because at the end of the day, everyone’s different. And what works for me might not work for you. So it’s like you have to learn through trial and error, what type of strategy works best for you.

It’s Okay to Make Mistakes

12:23 Emily: So what I took from that story, which was fascinating, is that you were operating in these early years very much off of intuition. And it worked well for you in some areas, and it didn’t work as well for you in other areas. And now that you’ve learned that about yourself, you are sort of shoring yourself up with more research and like systems to make sure that your weaknesses are not going to come through in your investment strategy, the way that it did before. And I think this is really interesting because I actually talk with a lot of people in my audience, and I’m not saying that’s the majority, but people who choose to speak with me, sort of have the opposite. Like they’re so cautious and they don’t want to take any steps because they don’t want to make any mistakes.

13:06 Emily: And so what I love about that overview that you just gave us, and we’ll go a little bit more into the subject shortly is like, it’s okay to make a mistake. Yes, it’s painful. Of course, it’s painful to make a mistake. Of course, you should try to avoid it. But the downside of making a mistake is not so huge that you should miss out on the upside of actually pursuing your investments or pursuing these strategies. So, yeah, we’re going to talk more about that in a moment. I’m so excited about that.

13:29 Natalia: Well, I think at the end of the day, you most regret things you didn’t do, rather than the things that you did.

Negative Views of Money

13:36 Emily: Yeah. I agree. So when we prepared for this conversation, we talked a little bit about how money is viewed in academia, specifically not favorably. And so I wanted to know based on sort of your observations, your personal experience, and I can share mine as well, how that voice in academia saying that, you know, money’s bad, don’t pursue money, blah, blah, blah, how that actually materially affects the personal finances of people who survive academia.

14:07 Natalia: A very good question. I think it’s not only a disease of academia, but of the whole public sector, I believe. And yes, that’s actually another painful observation I had to make in grad school because I was one of the few like misfits who were interested in the economy and personal investments, while most of my friends from grad school were spending evenings on just having, you know, beers like downtown. And they didn’t really understand my interest in reading about the economy and the financial markets. So, yeah, I heard about myself that I was greedy, that I was so materialistic, that I was an aggressive capitalist. Like I heard those things, but I also know what my aims are in the long run and I just didn’t, I’m happy now that I chose to develop myself in this direction. And I would definitely recommend it to anyone, regardless of what you do.

15:09 Natalia: Like money is not a bad thing. Money is a good thing. It gives you opportunities. And indeed the picture of money in academia is quite negative. And I feel this is what they also do to program you to be poor, you know? And when you like read like popular press and go online, like what they always sell you is these negative pictures of successful people and like big entrepreneurs. And it’s like, there is a lot of bad press around success on financial markets, and don’t buy into it. Because at the end of the day, like money will not change you as a person. It will just give you more chances to do what you would do otherwise. So, I’m always trying to fight with this black picture of money in academia. And when I do courses with PhD graduates who are now looking for careers, I always underscore how important it is to have a financial cushion and to take care of your finances, and that it’s actually a good thing. You’re only going to have more chances to do good if you have your finances sorted out.

Negative Impact of Separating Finances from Career

16:18 Emily: Okay. So let’s continue on from this thought about, okay, academia has this low view of money. Let’s say that does impact most people’s finances negatively while they’re in academia. They’re not earning very much. Maybe they’re not, you know, enticed to invest as you were and so forth. How does that then translate into the career space? How does that affect their career search and their job selection, and so forth?

16:39 Natalia: Yes, obviously it does affect your job search because as mentioned before, the separation doesn’t really serve you well. And you don’t have a clear view of the opportunities, once you have this bias that you actually have to find something and you have just less freedom to choose and to wait for the right opportunity. So definitely it does affect, like the lack of money does affect your career in a negative way, of course. So indeed, there’s a correlation there, or even causation between a lack of funds and some problems with developing careers. So at the end of the day, you know, I always tell it to the course participants, you know, you have to, at least manage your expenditures and control them and just control your finances.

17:35 Natalia: Even if you don’t feel like you’re the best investor, at least you can watch your expenditures and make sure that you pay yourself first. That’s at the very minimum. It’s good to put aside like 10% of your income. And don’t tell me that you can do it, because everyone who, at least here in the Netherlands, everyone with a postdoc contract is able to do it. I mean, if someone says, they’re not, they’re not saying the truth to themselves, because there is such a disproportion in salaries between PhD students and postdocs that if you spent everything as a postdoc, that means you inflated your lifestyle way too much. So that means you should take a look at your expenditures. So, if you do it right, then you should always be able to pay yourself and set aside some amount. So you don’t have to be a genius. You don’t have to be another Warren Buffet to be financially safe. You just have to be reasonable with your finances.

Commercial

18:33 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD Workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Our next live discussion and Q&A call is on Wednesday, October 20th, 2021. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success! Now back to the interview.

Make Your Own Decisions

19:41 Emily: So you mentioned earlier a few, you know, negative experiences you’ve had in this investing sphere and about having your crypto stolen and meeting up with bad actors and so forth. Are there any kind of like takeaway messages maybe that you have for the listener, like about how to not fall into these situations that you have?

20:04 Natalia: Right. Well, first of all, you have to make your own decisions. First of all, get informed about possibilities, and try not to follow the crowd. Because at the end of the day, once something’s already, like there is a hype on the media, usually it’s too late already. So usually it’s already a bubble. And if you join at that point, it’s better to just like try to figure out early that something is promising. Some project is promising and it’s just about to take off, and observe closely to see if that crowd sentiment will follow and just jump in just before the crowd, not when it’s already making headlines, because that’s already, usually, too late. And also don’t follow the advice too much. I would say like my best decisions were always my own independent decisions, and all these companies that I found in the stock exchange, like nobody told me to buy into those companies.

21:02 Natalia: I just made my own decisions. I came to my own conclusions, and, they turned out to be good decisions. And so, at the end of the day, it’s all about your knowledge and your gut. And now I can see that, especially since the Corona crisis started, there are so many of these false like financial advisors on YouTube. And they became really popular and they started all these systems to become rich quick, or they legitimately actually became rich because they have some successful company, but then they will tell you, you know, this is how I did it. This is what you should be doing to, you know, to follow my success and become successful. But you have to craft your own way that fits you best, and there is no algorithm.

Assume That Your Mission Matters

21:55 Natalia: So if it works for them, it doesn’t mean it will work for you. And I have to say my own way to get like closer to wealth is very different from any of what these financial advisors are telling you. So like none of the rules that, you know, I tried many pieces of advice that they suggest and the sales techniques, et cetera. And none of them really worked. Like for me, for instance, what worked best was just assuming that like that your mission matters. And when I was buying a house, basically I was just telling people openly what I’m going to do in this house and how I’m going to take care of it. And in the end, I got a very good deal because someone liked my purpose and me as a person.

22:43 Natalia: And this is something that no one will tell you in this, you know, in the space of financial advisory. And now I’m kind of doing the same. So I also work on my personal mission. I have a vision of, if my company becomes really successful, what I want to do with with the money I earn, I would like to build the most beautiful house of all time, somewhere in the woods and host startups and people who want to build their careers there, and have a place where we can find value and develop value in people and projects. And the more I talk about this, the more I also sell my products, because people like the mission. So, and this is something no one will tell you on the internet, you know, that they will tell you, well, you should build a CRM model and you have this like bulletproof system to acquire clients. Nobody will tell you that you actually have to have meaningful purpose, right? So every single time, like, just think for yourself, like, what do you really want? What’re you good at? And also, start with why, right? Why are you doing this for? Like, why do you want to get wealthy? And just have a good purpose. I think that really helps.

23:57 Emily: So much that I wanted to emphasize in what you just said. To play off the last point, I’ve also found in growing my business, I haven’t taken like the mission driven approach that you have, but what I found has been most valuable for me is relationships. Like literally just developing relationships with other human beings. And the podcast is one way that I do that. And that’s been the biggest driver of revenue for me, for sure. And like, again, that’s not something some internet marketer is going to tell you, because it’s an investment, it’s time consuming to develop relationships. But in any case, for my business model, which is not the same as anybody else’s, it pays off, right? So O just want to emphasize, yeah, like you don’t have to follow all the techniques that everybody is trying to teach you in your own finances, in your business, whatever it is that you’re doing.

Understand How They Make Money

24:42 Emily: The other thing that I wanted to add about like how to sort of avoid making mistakes, and like you were saying, like, sort of forging your own path. Once the media is, you know, proclaiming something, it’s already over, the trend’s done. You have to get in early if you’re going to get in, kind of at all. Just to emphasize in there, it’s really important when you’re listening to people, from anywhere, to understand how they make money. Whether it’s directly selling you a product and they’re getting commission off that, that’s at least straightforward. That’s easy to understand their motivation for, you know, pitching you the product. It’s maybe a little bit harder when people are driven by, you know, advertising revenue perhaps, like on YouTube or something. Or it’s also hard if they’re just, they’re not directly making money, but you going into the thing that they’re hyping feeds the bubble and allows their investments to grow.

25:29 Emily: Just ask yourself that question, like, how is this person making money, and does that influence, it doesn’t necessarily, does it influence the message that they have for me? I welcome all of my listeners to ask that about me and about my business and, you know, listening to this podcast. How is it that I make money? And should you be listening to me? And so forth. And I think that my business would stand up to that scrutiny, but it’s up to the individual to do that everywhere that they listen to money, advice, or business advice, or what have you.

25:56 Natalia: Yeah, totally. I absolutely agree. And I can also say that I get entertained by some of these financial channels as well. And, I mean, I would rather choose this over some entertainment shows. And so when I have free time, I would rather listen to good financial advice, but I always choose people who don’t sell you anything, at least, you know, they just say what they know. And yes, they get some revenue from the sense that YouTube pays them. But at least they are not selling you any system. So at least to some extent they are objective. But I agree with you, you always have to look at their business model. And that will tell you a lot about how credible they are.

Time Management in Managing Finances

26:44 Emily: So you mentioned earlier that when you were in graduate school, your friends might be out at the bar having a drink together, and you were at home, you know, learning about more about your investments or something. What have you learned about appropriate time management when it comes to your finances? Have you swung too far to one side of the spectrum or the other? What do you think is like the happy medium in terms of how much attention and time to pay to your finances?

27:07 Natalia: Very good question. I think that also very much depends on the type of investments you do. But I think also, there were periods of time when I was spending way too much time, especially after my PhD contract expired. And I had all the time in the world to do the projects I liked. And at some point I went down the rabbit hole, and for a few months, I was spending time mostly on reading about these speculative markets. And I felt that, the more time I was spending on that, the more I was losing the overall picture. And now I don’t spend as much time. I attend some online groups to discuss the progress in the field, and I try to be there every week, and I read once in a while. But I’m trying to keep this time limited, and I can feel that I’m much better at spotting the valuable projects and valuable concepts that have a future if I look more from the distance.

28:04 Natalia: Because like the closer you get, the more, you know, you’re also influenced by people you’re talking to. For instance, like everyone who is developing a new product, they do it for a reason. That’s why they do it, because they believe that none of the mainstream projects are the future. So like when you talk to them, they will obviously criticize the like mainstream projects, just because otherwise they wouldn’t be doing what they’re doing. So, they are kind of biased, even if they have the best intentions. Then you have to take into account, the more you interact with people in the space, the more biased you get.

Be Like Master Yoda: Everywhere

28:42 Natalia: So now I really am trying to keep a healthy distance, and I’m trying to be like this like Master Yoda that talks to everybody and has some wisdom, has some knowledge, is everywhere, you know–talks to employers, talks to recruiters, talks to professionals who are looking for careers, talks to business developers who are building their own businesses, talks to people who are in financial markets. But I don’t get, like, I always keep some level of distance to everything. And I try to keep my emotions low, be objective, look from perspective, and I’m doing much, much better this way. So I would say like too much time can work against you, as well. At least that’s my experience.

29:25 Emily: Yeah. And I would say to drill that point down even further on like specifically financial management, I would say like, so when I was in graduate school, it’s fair to say I was pretty obsessed with my finances. But not in a way that was super helpful and actually improving like my net worth in a big way. So like, for example, I did not get into entrepreneurship when I was in graduate school. That was after I finished graduate school. And actually earning more money at that time when I was earning very little for a graduate student stipend would have been a bigger ROI than just focusing on frugality, which is a lot of what I thought about. Now, I did good things like, you know, my frugality fueled investments. So that was good and that did increase my net worth. But now that I’m an entrepreneur and maybe you’ve had a similar sort of transition, I think a lot more about how to earn more money, and that’s worth more to my bottom line than spending a lot of time being really frugal.

Do You Have to Go Through a Proving Period?

30:19 Emily: But you know what, I think there’s also some value in, and maybe you agree or not, going through a period of being a little bit obsessed and really learning a lot, learning a lot about yourself, in whatever space you’re in. And then after that point, when you’ve invested a lot of time, you can pull back, like you were just saying and see the bigger picture, like more easily. What do you think about that? Do you have to go through like a proving period of, you know, really, really diving into a subject?

30:44 Natalia: That’s a very good question. I don’t have one clear answer to that. I think again, like just that careers cannot be like treated separately from finances. I think that your finances cannot be treated separately from your personality and who you are. So you have to learn it somehow, like what fits you best. And indeed, you need some knowledge to make educated choices and allocate your assets, which are your future, basically in the right, like baskets. There is some effort, like there is no freelance, so indeed perhaps, yeah, spending time on it and effort is of course necessary. I’m not sure if this is absolutely necessary to spend a period of your life on it, like full-time or maybe it’s sufficient to, let’s say, allocate one evening per week and do it systematically. Maybe that’s healthier. So I don’t have a clear answer to that, but for sure, this is like a compound interest. Like you have to have some space in your life for this, and it’s lik compound interest. If you allocate time for it on a regular basis, you will become a pro in a period of time. So for sure.

How to Contact Natalia

32:01 Emily: Love that answer. Okay. So we’re going to get to your best financial advice in just a moment. But before we do that, I just want you to remind the listener where they can find you, where they can find all the stuff that you’re doing in the career space.

32:12 Natalia: Right. So yes, I think the best way to contact me at the moment is my LinkedIn profile. So you can find me on LinkedIn, I’m open to new contacts. So please contact me and let’s talk. And you can also find me on Twitter. And of course I can recommend my book that also contains one chapter about finances. So I hope you can find some link to the book somewhere here as well. And yeah, I think this is at the moment, the best way to find me. And there is also a YouTube channel. There is my company website with everything I think will be linked below. So, please find me. I’m always, I’m not a financial advisor, but I like talking finances. I think it’s an important area of life. So I’m always happy to talk.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

33:01 Emily: Yes. We can find all those links in the show notes for the show or in my mailing list, email, which you should get the day this is released, if you’re on my mailing list. Okay. So last question, Natalia, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

33:17 Natalia: Well, so I would say two pieces of advice. I couldn’t choose, so I will just list two. So first of all, what is also related to the topic of my book. In my book, I talk a lot about like a very important choice you have to make once you get from academia out to the big world. And this is a choice between safety and freedom. So, if you go to public institutions or large corporations, you have to compromise a lot on your freedom. You will have to follow the procedures, follow the local rules, follow your boss, follow expectations. But you will gain a lot of stability. You will get good working benefits and an opportunity to stay for a long time in one place. So, you’ll sleep well at night, but you will have some limited freedom. Versus if you go the opposite way and you start your own business, or you continue in academia, or you go like work in a startup in some speculative markets, then you will experience much more stress because your future will be much more uncertain.

34:25 Natalia: But you will also gain a lot of freedom. So it’s always a compromise. You either go for one or the other. The only exception, the only group of people who can afford to be free and to be safe at the same time are those who are wealthy. So money is a measure of safety, and it’s a measure of freedom. And this is your only chance. So in fact, most people who get wealthy, they don’t do it because they want to have a lambourghini in their garage. They just want to be free, and they want to be safe. And that’s how you should treat it. And if you treat the money like this, I think it’s a really good mindset to start with.

35:06 Emily: I just, I hope you don’t mind. I want to add onto that point because I love the way you articulated that. It’s not something I’ve thought about before. So I’m so glad that you brought that up. For my own life, personally, obviously I’m an entrepreneur. Longtime listeners may know that my husband, who’s also a PhD, works at a startup. And so we both, pretty much immediately after we finished our PhDs, went down this freedom, less safety route, although certainly his is more safe than mine because he has an actual job. So we went down this like freedom over safety route that you were just articulating. However, we radically reduced risk of undertaking those job choices because of the financial wherewithal that we had built up during graduate school, because we had savings, because we had investments, because we paid off almost all of our debt. That risk was much, much less to us, as you were just saying. So we were able to shift that, you know, get more freedom, feel like we were providing our own safety, even in these like unsafe careers, basically. So love the way you articulated that. So brilliant. Thank you. What was your next piece of advice?

Think About Your Mission

36:05 Natalia: My last piece of advice would be referring to what I said before. Think about your mission. And this is like, again a bit counter-intuitive, but there are at least two good reasons to think about your mission. First of all, if you have a goal that you can think of every time you negotiate, you become a better negotiator, because you see a purpose. You see like a big picture of why you want to negotiate a better salary, better honorarium for your work. That also helped me because that was initially my problem as an entrepreneur, that I couldn’t really value my work properly. And I was doing a lot of work for free. And I was just afraid to ask for money for my career services at first. And I was always feeling guilty.

36:49 Natalia: But once I started thinking, okay, this is my big picture. This is what I want to get. I need to start valuing my work, because otherwise I’ll never get there. So, that helped me. That gave me courage. And now I’m standing my ground much better when it comes to negotiation. So that helped a lot. And the second reason is because people will make it easier for you. People like helping individuals who have vision. And people are good. If they see that you have a good purpose, they will make it easy for you. You can even get donations. You should have big dreams, and should articulate them. Because most people, they keep their dreams to themselves. They believe that nobody cares or that, you know, people will only make it harder for you. They will either laugh, or they will put locks on your feet. But it’s not true. It’s the opposite. If you have a good cause, just articulate it. Say it loud, and you will see that wealth will come to you much faster.

37:55 Emily: I love that. I need to take that one to heart. Natalia, this was a wonderful interview. Thank you so much for giving it. I hope that the interested listeners will reach out and connect with you. And just thank you so much again.

38:05 Natalia: Thank you! Thank you so much for your invitation. It was great.

Postscript

38:09 Emily: Emily here, with a quick postscript. When we conducted our interview, Natalia was in the middle of a rebranding. Her business is now officially named the Ontology of Value and can be found at ontologyofvalue.com. In the interview, Natalia described the Odyssey test, or the Ontology of ValueTM test. If you would like to take this test to learn how you most naturally create value in the world, and which professional and employment sectors fit your value proposition, please register through my affiliate link, PFforPhDs.com/ontology. That’s P F F O R P H D S.com/O N T O L O G Y.

Outtro

38:56 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

The Process Behind Landing a Dream Job with a Jaw-Dropping Salary

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In this episode, Emily interviews My-Linh Luong, a PhD candidate in physiotherapy at the University of Melbourne in Australia. My-Linh is at the all but dissertation stage of her PhD and recently accepted a dream job with a dream salary. She tells the story of how she prepared for and executed her job search, which involved an amazing degree of intentionality during her years in grad school, including plumbing her values, working on her mindset, and utilizing professional development resources. My-Linh’s job search took about a year and a half, and she shares how she stayed motivated and hopeful throughout the long process. She even shares some specific scripts regarding salary negotiation. Prepare to take notes or at least be ready to hit rewind to catch all of the gold nuggets My-Linh gives in this interview.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

process behind landing dream job with jaw-dropping salary

Teaser

00:00 My-Linh: I want everyone to find a job where they’re paid well and using the skillsets and talents that they have. And so I just want to hold vision for everyone who’s listening. You know, like I’m not sharing the story to say, this is the magic bullet to do things. I’m sharing this story so that you can also see and plant the seed that it’s possible for you, too.

Introduction

00:27 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 10, and today my guest is My-Linh Luong, a PhD candidate in physiotherapy at the University of Melbourne in Australia. My-Linh is at the all but dissertation stage of her PhD and recently accepted a dream job with a dream salary. She tells the story of how she prepared for and executed her job search, which involved an amazing degree of intentionality during her years in grad school, including plumbing her values, working on her mindset, and utilizing professional development resources. My-Linh’s job search took about a year and a half, and she shares how she stayed motivated and hopeful throughout the long process. She even shares some specific scripts regarding salary negotiation. Prepare to take notes or at least be ready to hit rewind to catch all of the gold nuggets My-Linh gives in this interview.

01:29 Emily: My pre-recorded workshop that helps funded graduate students prepare their 2021 tax returns will be ready by early January 2022. The title is How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!). While I have sold this workshop to individuals for several years and will continue to do so, this year I’m making a big push to license it to university hosts as well. On my end, I can grant access to the pre-recorded workshop materials very quickly—like, within minutes of a host telling me they want it. But you know what can take a while? Budgetary approval. That’s why I’m bringing up the workshop at this time of year. If you have used this workshop in the past or wanted to, will you please ask your graduate school, department, graduate student association, etc. if they will buy it on behalf of yourself and your interested peers? I give a discount for bulk purchases and additionally will provide a private live Q&A call just for your group if a minimum order size is reached. I’ve noticed that these personal requests and testimonials go very far in bringing these purchases to fruition so I really appreciate you making this ask. Please send the decision-maker the PDF at PFforPhDs.com/taxflyer/ to introduce the workshop and ask them to contact me via email. Do it now so they have time to sort out the funding before the workshop goes live in January! Thank you! Without further ado, here’s my interview with My-Linh Luong.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:05 Emily: I am over the moon to introduce My-Linh Luong to you all. I’m so happy to have her on as a guest. She has an amazing story to tell you of her career progression, kind of throughout graduate school and post graduate school. But I want to get back up and tell you how we met. So My-Linh was part of my pilot program of The Wealthy PhD back in fall 2019. The Wealthy PhD is my group coaching program. My-Linh I’m so happy to have you here. Will you please introduce yourself a bit further for the audience?

03:35 My-Linh: Thanks Emily, I’m super excited to be here as well. So for the audience, I’m a behavioral scientist and public health researcher, and I completed my master’s in public health at UNC, and then I’m finishing up my PhD in health behavior change at the University of Melbourne. And I currently work as a medical and behavioral strategist in the healthcare industry. And more specifically in terms of what I do in the day-to-day is I use my training in behavioral science to improve the implementation of clinical trials.

Career Goals at the Start of Grad School

04:07 Emily: So let’s take it back to the start of graduate school. Maybe that’s the start of your master’s program. Maybe we’re even going back to undergrad. You know, what were those career goals that you set out with when you started your graduate journey?

04:19 My-Linh: Yeah, so I think when I look in retrospect and sort of reconnect with my values of why I started graduate school, it makes perfect sense how I landed here. So I was really interested sort of from my advocacy health research standpoint to improve the health and wellbeing of people in communities. So that’s why I went to a public health program. And I think somewhere along the way, you know, in the decade that I’ve been in graduate school, some of that messaging that lost in terms of what I was hearing about, you know, what people do with their PhDs. And, you know, there were moments where I was like, oh, you know, do I want to stay in the academic research track? You know, my friends are in that track. I see basically no conversation from my professors about what happens afterwards.

05:06 My-Linh: But I think it was helpful I have a sister and a parent who has a PhD who aren’t in academic spaces. So that definitely planted the seed for me to say, I don’t need to be in the academic space to be successful with how I use my PhD. And so now that I’m thinking back, it’s that reconnection, you know, with what I wanted to do in improving health and wellbeing and being able to increase in scale and impact and the work that I do. And the more I thought about being in academia first, honestly, I was like, I don’t think I’m cut out for this. And then secondly, I just wasn’t that interested in what that day-to-day looked like. Grant writing, teaching just became not as appealing to me. And as I figured out what is it that I like about what I’m doing? Because there are definitely aspects of academia I liked, right? The flexibility, sort of the autonomy, being able to be remote if I needed to be, that helped me get a lot more clear as I was getting sort of to the end of my PhD about what it is that I valued in what my life looked like post-PhD. So yeah, I think I was pretty early on in the mindset of, you know, I don’t think the academic track is the right track for me. So I was always open and curious about what opportunities were beyond that.

Professional Development and Career Exploration

06:36 Emily: I know that when you were in graduate school, you were taking advantage of a lot of the like professional development type career exploration type opportunities that your university made available to you. And you’re probably going outside of those as well. So what were you doing during that time to get this process going of what do I want to do with my next career phase, and how do I present myself so that I am competitive for those kinds of jobs?

06:57 My-Linh: So one of the things I found really valuable is, as I knew I wasn’t probably going to stay in academia, trying to find ways to apply research in settings outside of that. So doing short-term internships or consultancies. You know, when I was stateside, I worked with the Orange County department on aging to develop their master aging plan. When I was in the states, I worked for the productivity commission on sort of this systematic review to develop an evidence-base around the public health approach to child welfare. So having these opportunities outside of academia allowed me to see, I can apply research in spaces that are not specifically academic, whether that’s public service, whether that’s in the government. And I hadn’t had as much experience in industry. So, I wasn’t sure about what that connection was going to look like in terms of sharing my skills and expertise there.

Short-term Paid Internships and Consultancies During the PhD

07:52 Emily: So I’m curious with these like internships and other project-based experience. Was that something that you had to take like official timeout from your program to do? Is it something you did alongside continuing with your research and whatever duties you had in academia? And also were those paid opportunities or were they volunteer?

08:10 My-Linh: So they were both paid opportunities and I did them while I was in the PhD. I think being able to have flexibility with the program I mean, full disclosure, I didn’t share that much with my PhD advisors that I was doing this extra work. But I knew what was best for me. And this was what was best for me in terms of getting the experience I wanted and keeping me passionate about the work.

08:36 Emily: Yeah, I think that’s really helpful because oftentimes current graduate students do struggle with is taking this opportunity, which could be great for my career, is that going to detract from my progress towards my degree? And also the question of, will my advisor allow it? Sounds like you took the position of, you know, better to ask for forgiveness than permission and it ended up working out. So that’s great. Not everyone might have that approach, but I just like hearing from people who are facing those decisions, like, what did you do about it.

08:59 My-Linh: Yeah, I think you have to know what’s best for you, so you do whatever you need to do to get the experiences that you want that are fulfilling. And I will say also in full disclosure, I love professional development. Emily knows this, anybody who knows me well knows that I love this. So I’m speaking from the perspective of, I enjoy going to workshops and learning more and there is so much free career information out there. And one of the things I think, in retrospect, thinking about what’s helpful is not trying to feel like you have to do everything at once. Like there are stages to doing a job search that aren’t just like, okay, all of a sudden I have to like apply, interview, and get the job. There’s a much longer phase to that of sort of career exploration and understanding, and there are different workshops that universities might offer around that.

Evaluate Your Own Interests, Skills, and Values

09:57 My-Linh: I think there’s a lot around people talking about, oh, what are these transferable skills that you have? And I think about it less as like, oh, this is the transferable skill that makes me marketable in the marketplace. But more of doing that deep inner work. I did a lot more sort of on my own. And there’s plenty in that space around evaluating sort of your interests and your skills and your values in alignment. So one free resource that I really liked using was ImaginePhD, which has lots of assessments around that very specific around the type of things that PhD folks are doing. So that really helped me to better articulate to myself and then to other people what I wanted, but I definitely spent a lot of time sort of lurking.

10:44 My-Linh: You know, going to lots of career panels, hearing about that career journey. And just knowing that like, you know, even what I share today, it’s not like a magic bullet of things. Like you sort of take what works for you and leave what doesn’t work for you. And that’s something I just want folks who are listening to just remember that there’s a lot of information out there. If you disagree with it, that’s okay. You know, but part of, I think when I was going to all these workshops, because I was hearing a lot of the same things over and over. And at that point I knew I had reached saturation. And I think as a PhD student, I love doing the research. I want to know everything. I was very comprehensive in that. So in retrospect, I probably could have done a lot fewer workshops, but that worked for me. I don’t know. I don’t think everyone needs to like have all the professional development to be successful in their job search. I think there are really some very key strategies to how to approach the job search, and being thoughtful about that in phases is really important.

Give Yourself Time in this Process

11:48 Emily: I think just that like insight alone, one gold nugget already takeaway from this interview is like, you need to give yourself time in this process, and it’s not something you can take on, like in the few months before you have your defense, you’re submitting your dissertation and so forth, like when you’re actually looking for a job. This is something that, you have to let this breathe a little bit, give it more time. And if like you, you like professional development, you should be attending these kinds of things throughout your entire PhD, it sounds like, just to sort of, as you were saying, gain all the information and be able to give yourself time to sort through it, figure out what’s going to work for you, what’s not. What connects with you, what doesn’t. So that you have all of that background knowledge and the skills for when you actually jump into the, okay, I’ve decided on the career and I’m actually going after a job now or a set of jobs. Does that make sense?

12:37 My-Linh: Yeah. And I would emphasize that there are definitely people who are able to get jobs really quickly at the end of that. And so, you know, not saying that everyone has to spend all this time into professional development, but that when you are a graduate student and you do have that flexibility to spend time thinking about it, to take advantage of those opportunities, even if they don’t immediately apply. And that’s something that I definitely found is that, you know, going into this thing on interviewing, wasn’t helpful to me at the stage when that was in exploration, but it was still helpful to just sort of hear like what’s going to come down the path. So, I just recommend like, obviously there are people who are on an accelerated job search, but that feels panicked to me. So to be just prepared for that to be, you know, like sitting in and just hearing this and being familiar with what that job search looks like to be better prepared. Because I imagine that people don’t want to get to the end of their PhD and not know what’s next. So that’s part of just being prepared in graduate school is taking advantage of those opportunities when you have the time and space to think about them.

13:42 Emily: And I think another kind of factor in this, which we’ll talk about how this worked for you and your individual story in a moment. But another factor is what is your degree of flexibility at the end of the PhD if you don’t have a job at the second you think you want one? So like my own story, for example, is my PhD advisor decided to leave my university. And so he basically graduated like half of his graduate students, including me all at one time. Whereas I might’ve wanted to take maybe like another six months before defending and I did not have, like, I could not stay on as a postdoc. My PI was leaving. So there was no like sort of fallback opportunity or like flexibility around that timeline. And that was never something that I anticipated getting towards the end of graduate school that I would suddenly be like without a job, without a paycheck, without any control over that timeline.

14:32 Emily: So that was what happened to me. I’ll give another example of like my husband. He found a job very easily at a time that worked well for him because his advisor was very flexible with him about how long to keep him on. So he defended, then stayed on as a postdoc for about a year. That was totally open-ended. And so got a job at a time that it just was fine because there was that flexibility there. So you really need to think about your own funding situation, your relationship with your advisor, and what your opportunities are to know how well-timed this job search needs to be.

My-Linh’s Story: 2019-2020

15:06 Emily: So let’s talk about your story with this. And let’s go back to like that fall 2019 time when you and I met. Where were you in your graduate program at the time? And then take us through the next almost two years now.

15:18 My-Linh: Yeah. So the time that we met, I had already sort of gone through my confirmations. In U.S. terms, that’s basically ABD. And I was sort of, again, I had mentioned earlier that I knew that I wasn’t going to stay in academia. And wanting to be prepared, I just sort of started kind of putting out feelers there around job searching. And then I moved back stateside around December, I guess, is when I moved back stateside and was sort of trying to figure out I didn’t know where I was going to be geographically. There was just a lot of uncertainty in my life that felt out of my control. And I wasn’t finished with the PhD yet as well, right? So it was, I think what you were saying earlier about what does the end of the PhD look like, or when is the best time to start the job search?

16:17 My-Linh: I would say it’s never too early to start the job search. And it’s never too late to start either. And it’s never tidy. And so I didn’t know exactly when I was going to finish. I ended up actually taking a personal leave of absence, a medical leave of absence. So that kind of changed my timeline, that changed the structure of how I was doing my job search. And so there were a lot of like different conditions in my situation that kind of put a lot of things up in the air. So I understand, I know lots of listeners here understand, like there’s just a lot of uncertainty and a lot of precariousness in being a graduate student and lots of change. So I resonate a lot with that because it was a really chaotic period of time.

17:04 Emily: And let’s not forget that this period of time, March, 2020 is when the entire world was feeling some of the same, like precarity and uncertainty that you were already going through in your personal life. So all of that stuff that you were just saying was, okay, you’re not done with the PhD yet. So you’re still working on the dissertation, you’re getting close to the end. But you also decided to take a leave of absence. So there’s no real, like, I think there weren’t like deadlines for you to particularly meet like milestones on. And so you could take a little bit more flexibility. But you also, I think didn’t have an income or maybe your income was, you know, dramatically cut during that time. Do you want to talk about how you managed basically from the time that you stopped being paid by your PhD program until landing this job eventually?

Paid Leave in Grad School

17:46 My-Linh: Yeah. So I will say that it’s amazing be at University of Melbourne where they allow you to take a paid leave of absence for three months, which is, I think completely unheard of in a U.S. program. So, I was fortunate. And then when I decided to take my leave of absence, that I had a little bit of time in between either to figure out how I was going to, you know, gain more money or just how to be more financially stable. So having that bit of time where I was able to just have some funding and not have to get a job immediately, I could have a roof over my head and have my bills paid. I’m also fortunate in that, you know, my partner was working and he and I had a long discussion about whether or not I needed to just find something temporary to keep things moving and how I needed to contribute financially to the household.

18:34 My-Linh: And we made the decision to say, you know, I took a leave of absence for a reason to kind of give myself space in my own healing. And so, to add this additional stressor wasn’t really feasible and that we could live on his income. So in full disclosure, I did have the benefit of having a partner who was able to basically float me financially and that we could live on his income. And it wasn’t huge. And I think as graduate students, we’re used to living on very small salaries. So it wasn’t a huge quality of life change for me. And I will say you know, sometimes there’s no shame in taking a job that pays money that isn’t aligned with your future career goals or what you’re doing in your PhD. It’s not your job forever. So if you need to get a job doing something you don’t like just pay the bills. There’s absolutely no shame in that, regardless of what other people are saying. You know what’s best for you and you need a roof over your head and to be able to pay the bills.

Job Search Strategies

19:34 Emily: So, if I’m getting the timeline right, it was something like between a year and a year and a half between when you were starting to apply for positions, and when you actually finally got the job that we’ll be talking about later on. And so, what strategies were you using during that time? Did you change any of your strategies? Figure out something wasn’t working pivot to something else. And of course, keeping in mind like this was 2020, so I don’t know. Maybe everyone had to change their strategies during that time.

19:59 My-Linh: Yeah. So to speak to that, I think, you know, we spoke earlier about this and that I was very intentional about my job search. And I think I was feeling sort of this internal pressure and this extra pressure to be like, apply to jobs, apply to jobs, put applications in, and you’re not doing your job search unless you’re putting applications in. And I just want to recommend to the listeners if they have the time to really do that self-reflection, again, the ImaginePhD assessments, or just in general, understanding what your values are. I think about it as sort of being the compass for job searching so that you’re certain that the jobs that you’re applying to are a good fit for you. Because there’s certainly a bunch jobs that I could do and could be good at, but might not like, or might not be aligned with my values.

20:53 My-Linh: So I think getting a lot of clarity around what it is you want, both, you know, in your life professionally, but then needs to meet your personal values as well, sort of like what fits your life. So that’s why for me, I knew when I was looking at my job search, I wanted to prioritize working remote. I wanted to have autonomy. I want it to be intellectually challenged. I wanted to be at a relaxed pace. There were very, very specific parameters around which I was able to evaluate different types of jobs. So I think that’s the number one thing that I would do that I think people miss, I guess don’t necessarily think about it as being part of the job search, but like doing that deep work and reflecting to know what it is that you really want. Because then, that helps you articulate to other people, your friends, first of all, what it is that you’re looking for and helps you identify positions that are a good match.

21:48 My-Linh: So I definitely spent a lot of time just collating a bunch of different job titles, which mean like research associate at one place looks very different than research associate at another place. So I did a lot of that sort of just like information gathering and just like plugging it into my Evernote to just review and be like, “Oh, that sounds interesting. Oh, I hate that.” This sounds really cool. So I got a better sense of what the market was looking like, how they were describing things, and where I might fit or how I might be able to use my skills to meet those needs. And then from there, I definitely did. You know, once I had a better idea of maybe the types of jobs I wanted, I reached out to my immediate network to help connect me with people in those types of jobs. For example, UX research or behavioral science.

22:35 My-Linh: So just getting me connected to get a better sense of what the industry looked like, you know, either in government, in the private sector. Just to get a better sense of what people’s day to day look like and be like, “That sounds terrible. I don’t want to do what you do. That’s great. I’m glad you love it.” But just getting a chance to talk to people. And you mentioned, right, this is during COVID times. And I would say that people were very happy to connect. People want to help if they can, especially if it’s talking about themselves in a job that they love. So I think that, you know, please reach out to me on LinkedIn, because I will be happy to talk more about any specifics around the job search. So that’s what I also found helpful. And then having a community of people to hold me accountable and to talk through things. I love my partner, but he doesn’t want to hear everything about my job search. So finding those opportunities you know, with The Wealthy PhD, with other communities of people where I feel safe sharing my journeys and disappointments and challenges and sharing successes were definitely enormously helpful in my job search.

Quality Over Quantity Approach

23:47 Emily: Yeah. I have a couple of follow-up comments in there. So one is, it definitely sounds like you took this like quality over quantity approach. You’re not just blast in CVs everywhere, but you’re really curating the jobs that you actually end up applying to. And I think that is, you said this and I’m maybe just rephrasing what you said earlier, but when you have that intentionality and you’re limiting yourself and not just applying everywhere, you’re able to very clearly understand and articulate what it is that you’re looking for and why you’re excited about this particular opportunity. And, you know, that’s what an employer wants to hear in the interview process is like why you’re a great fit for them in particular. If you know, a lot, you know, very deeply, you’ve done informational interviews with their employees. Like that puts you at a huge advantage for actually being the one to, you know, receive the job offer.

24:37 Emily: So I love the way you phrased, why you did things that way, but I I’ll just call that like quality over quantity in terms of number of applications you’re putting out there. And then the other comment, you said when you started this, that like you felt pressure to just be submitting job applications. And I recently read James Clear’s Atomic Habits, and I’m just excited about a lot of the ideas in that book. And so also one of the things that he talks about is like metrics and tracking the right things. And so if you’re only tracking, did you submit an application? That’s not the most useful thing to be measuring and promoting in your job search and application process. It’s what you were doing of like, okay, well, how many job listings did I look at today and gathered the information that I needed and analyze it to figure out what I want and what I don’t want? That could be a useful metric to track, even if you end up not submitting any applications that day, that’s still a really useful step forward in your process. So yeah, I just like that you emphasized not applying all the time is like the only thing that matters. A lot of that deeper work, self-reflective work is really important to this process as well. One other tool I know about, a little bit similar to ImaginePhD, is Beyond the Professoriate. Were you part of that community, or did you use that tool at all?

Community Support

25:54 My-Linh: Yeah, I was a part of that community. And it’s transitioning, so it looks a little bit different now, but I definitely have some folks from that community as well who I continue to work with in a professional development, co-working space. So that was a really great opportunity. Again, everyone in that space was job searching. Also had a PhD as well. So it was just a great community to be a part of. I can’t emphasize that enough is finding people to support you in the job search, because it often is long. There are a lot of barriers, perhaps mentally, that people are trying to overcome in transitioning. And so I can’t emphasize enough how valuable being a part of a community and having that support and accountability was.

26:38 Emily: It sounds like that’s one component of how you managed to keep going through this, you know, long job search process. I mean, you already mentioned the financial support from your partner, well first from your graduate program, but then eventually from your partner. That’s one way that you were able to sustain yourself through this. Sounds like community is another way. Were there any other factors that went into you being able to you know, keep your eye on the prize that like this job is out there and you’re eventually going to land it?

The Stages of Job Searching

27:05 My-Linh: Yeah. One thing I think about, and I mentioned earlier, is just job searching is overwhelming. If you just think about, I need to get a job. And so when you think about it in stages of job searching where you’re like, I’m focused right now on career exploration, or I’m really focused right now on doing my networking and learning more about this, or now I’m really, you know, I know the jobs that I want to apply to and the companies that are really interesting to me. Now, I’m ready to sort of like curate my materials. You know, now I’m going to move my CV into a resume. Okay. Now I’m ready to start applying. Okay, now I’m ready to start interviewing. Okay, now I’m ready to start negotiating. When you break it down into like lots of different parts and see that the job search includes more than just what I call the spray and pray approach.

27:54 My-Linh: So you just like put everything out there and you’re not prepared and you’re not articulating things well. And so just understanding to reduce the overwhelm, you don’t have to do everything at once. It’s just like, there are certain things that you can do at certain times to help move that ball forward in a way that isn’t overwhelming. And I think also to be really intentional about distinguishing your value as a person and how that’s connected to the work that you do. And not, yeah, just not connecting your self-worth to your job and not having a job. I think also, right, taking a leave of absence when I was not a student, I was like, how do I identify myself? I’m not, I mean, I am a student, but I’m not a student. I don’t have a job. So just recognizing that you are inherently valuable as a person and you’re worthy.

Self-Care and Boundaries

28:49 My-Linh: I think it’s really helpful in the job search to kind of, those are two separate things. Who I am and who I am in this job are two separate things. And to be intentional about boundaries that you have with people. You know, like who are the people you feel comfortable sharing your materials with to get feedback? That’s not everybody. Do you want to share your successes with everybody? Do you want to share challenges with only a certain set of people? So really being intentional about how you feel comfortable disclosing your own job search, I think is valuable. And I don’t think people, you know, thinking about whether your advisor’s going to ask you about it and how you want to respond. So for me, thinking about, you know, how do I have my emotional regulation up so that I feel prepared to have that conversation because it’s going to happen? Or your neighbor’s going to ask you, or your family’s going to ask you, and having kind of your own self-care on how you want to respond, what your boundaries are for that, because not everyone needs to know all your business.

29:58 My-Linh: What’s yours is yours and what’s theirs is thiers. And then just in general, just job search or just self-care around, like, what are the practices that ground you and having your daily practices so that you don’t just wake up and you’re just like job search. It’s sort of like who am I as a person beyond me getting a job?

30:21 Emily: I think so much of what you said is just like generally applicable to being a PhD student, being a PhD, and like that whole sort of conflation of your identity with your job, whether that’s as a student or not as a student. Like I can see how this was really helpful to you in this process, but this is going to be helpful to everybody listening. Even people who are not currently engaged in that or are approaching that process.

Commercial

30:46 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. This announcement is for prospective and first-year graduate students. My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society, offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s four-step Grad Boss method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, uplevel your productivity, and master time management. I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course titled, “Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School.” It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances in each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school. If this all sounds great to you, please register at theacademicsociety.com/emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join Grad School Prep if you’d like to go a step further. Again, that’s theacademic society.com/e m i l y for my affiliate link for the course. Now back to our interview.

Applying For and Landing Current Job

32:13 Emily: So let’s talk about the job that you finally got. And I don’t know if this was the first job offer and you had declined other things, or what was going on. But the job that you eventually took, let’s hear about whatever you’d like to share about the process of applying for that job and landing that job.

32:27 My-Linh: Yeah. So I ultimately applied to, like put in applications for four different places. That’s the total. Just so folks have an idea of how many I actually put in. The way that I actually got the job I did right now was through sort of a casual connection that my friend had made for me on LinkedIn. I didn’t know the person actually very well, and so I had a very casual conversation. And I wasn’t sure if it was the right fit at the time, I was very just sort of like, let me just be open to what, you know, open to the conversation and see where that goes. And so she was very, my hiring manager and now my current manager, was very excited about me. And so I was really excited. I’m like, “Oh, this could be a really good fit. I’m not sure I’m like connecting the dots, but like she’s connecting the dots.”

33:21 My-Linh: And I did end up applying and interviewing. And I didn’t actually get the job. You know, when I heard back from them, I think in December, I think is when I heard. But she said, you know, we’ve hired somebody else who has 10 years of experience in this, but we might be hiring again in the future. So, you know, let’s just keep in touch. And to me, I was like, “Oh, okay. You know, whatever. It’s fine I didn’t love the job anyway, I’ll move on.” But then an opportunity, she reached out to me, she actually got back to me and said, “Hey, we have a job opening for this position. You know, we can do an accelerated interview process because we’ve gone through some of these initial things, and I think you’re great. You’re a great fit for this.” So, part of that was sort of like having that set up of that initial opening, networking conversation earlier on, getting rejected from that job, and then having them come back. And that’s very common in the work place, I think. Yeah. I didn’t necessarily know that, but I have since read that it’s very common, right? Like we’ll just sort of have a backlog of people who could be good for this position, and they’ll hire for it. And so then when they’re ready to make the hire, they have those people in the pool already,

Interviewing as a Way to Network

34:33 Emily: I had never thought about that either actually interviewing for jobs as networking, like, and even just looking at it that way of like, there are more positive outcomes from this interview, other than you getting this particular job. Because in your case, they had another job later on that was a good fit. Or, you know, what, they might even be able to refer you to someone else they know at some other company, because they realize you’re a good fit for them or whatever. So had not thought about that before. That’s so interesting.

34:57 My-Linh: Exactly. I mean, I hadn’t shared this earlier, but I had actually talked to a recruiter, and I had gotten connected through from another connection on LinkedIn. And she wasn’t quite sure where to fit me. She’s like, “But I really like you. I want to find a place for you.” And so, that didn’t lead to a job immediately. But now I have a really great connection. I continue to have a great professional relationship with this recruiter. And just having, you know, having planted all those seeds, not knowing where they were going to go. And I think that’s reality is like, you know, that first conversation I had in November with somebody who was like, we had a really good connection. I wasn’t sure about the job yet. And that just sort of continued progressing, you know, 3, 4 months later when we were getting closer to more interviews and meeting more people where it became a lot more clear that the job was a good fit for me.

35:52 My-Linh: And I was very fortunate in the sense that I had another job that I was applying to that I almost thought was a good fit for me. It looked very different. It was a, you know, small behavioral science think tank, mostly government focused. And I would be doing sort of like end-to-end research as a research associate. So, in this job that I ended up landing, I’m a medical and behavioral strategist in the healthcare industry. And you can look me up on LinkedIn to find out what that company is. And so my department specifically focuses on using behavioral science to improve clinical trials, the training and engagement for that. And, you know, as a behavioral scientist, that’s a perfect place for me to be, but I would never have put myself there. But they saw. They saw those connections before I did.

36:41 My-Linh: So I ended up getting offers the same week. And I don’t know how common that is. I wasn’t trying to be super aggressive in the job search. It was just sort of happenstance that the timelines worked out because this other job for this think tank, I had just started applying, you know, maybe a month and a half previous. So it was happenstance that yeah, just the way that the timeline progressed to get offers in the same week. Yeah, it was very, very fortunate on my end. So in terms of the actual job offer, when I had first interviewed, I had had a chance to talk with the recruiter. And so when our recruiter had asked me, you know, what are my salary requirements, which is very common for a recruiter to ask, you know, this is not a time for negotiation and this is not a time to give numbers.

Keep the Conversation Going

37:37 My-Linh: So you want to keep the conversation going. So what I typically recommend is to say, thanks so much for asking about salary. You know, it’s not the top priority and I’m sure this is a really good fit for me and I’m sure we can find something that’s amenable for both of us. With that in mind, could you tell me what range you had in mind? Or what range you had budgeted for the role, right? So like to turn it back on them. And so that’s how I knew that the range for this, what they pitched to me back in November actually, was you know, probably 95 to $100,000. I was like, you know, I didn’t have any emotional response to that, but I knew that’s sort of where I was. And so when I was going into the second time I talked with the recruiter, he asked me the same question again.

38:26 My-Linh: And I literally just said the same thing to him. He talks with lots of folks so I don’t think he remembered my particular script. And he said to me, you know probably between, you know, the low end would probably be $115K to $130K. And so, right, without saying, I had thought a lot about like, you know, do I want to say, “Oh, well, last time you told me this.” I just kept it open and just sort of was open to that. So I knew that the salary band had increased. So I thought, okay, well maybe, you know, coming up not even having my PhD yet. And you know, I do have some experience, but I don’t have any industry experience, you know, probably I could get 120 maybe with that. So when I found out that I got the job offer, they called me up and their offer was within the salary band of 130 to $150,000, upper end of that. And my jaw just dropped. I pretended to stay cool, but it was completely unfathomable to me what they had offered. Yeah, I just, I didn’t think that I would ever be in that salary range at all. Based off of right, just like my own limiting beliefs about what I could make or how I deserve to be compensated.

39:49 Emily: Because I’m thinking that’s probably like four to five to six times what you were making as a grad student, right?

39:54 My-Linh: That’s right. Yeah.

39:55 Emily: So never anchor yourself on that grad student salary.

Normalizing Negotiation

39:59 My-Linh: Exactly. And so another part of, I guess, being open to that is when I talked to people, informational interviews, I also specifically asked them if I knew them well enough to say, how much do you make? Just so I could get a sense of where people were. So I knew that $80,000 was probably on the low end of what would be acceptable for my training and knowledge and that, you know, a hundred, 120 is sort of where people are at. So to come in above that at the offer, I was like, okay. So being again, someone who loves professional development, I knew I had to negotiate. And it felt very uncomfortable to negotiate because I was like, no one’s ever valued me, like at that. And again, right, I’m not talking about tying my value to my salary, but that was just completely unfathomable to me.

40:52 My-Linh: I would’ve been happy to accept, you know, with that salary range. And so I took some time to kind of reflect and say, they’re expecting this of me. You know, it’s a large company. All recruiters expect you to negotiate. But you can’t just come to say, like, I deserve more money because I know I should negotiate, right? So again, to be prepared for those negotiation conversations, like, you need to have a rationale for why you want that increase and sort of what you’re bringing to the table for them. And I knew that there was nothing to lose. You know, I was already happy with the salary. And I think that the common myth that people have is like, oh, if you ask for more, you seem greedy. When in reality, you know, you value the work that you bring to them and you are going to be a top performer for them.

41:42 My-Linh: And it’s in their best interest. Having gone through the whole hiring process, they want you, so that’s when the cards are in your hand to make a negotiation and at no time before that, until they give you an offer. They want you, and they will do everything that they can to go to bat for you, if you provide them with enough information. So that’s what I did. You know, ultimately it was a five minute conversation with the recruiter and that, you know, that got me increased by 15K within a five minute conversation. And part of that was being prepared for that, all the anxiety and nerves that come with having a negotiation and knowing that recruiters do this day in and day out. So they’re not phased at all when they asked you for a number, but even if it was a five-minute conversation, that was like three days of me preparing for that conversation, getting prepped, mentally, knowing what my scripts were and how to respond, but that five-minute conversation increased my base salary immediately.

42:43 My-Linh: And so, I just really want to advocate, you know, as a woman, as a person of color, anybody should be negotiating, even if the offer is amazing. Because 1000% my offer was amazing and I would be happy just signing off on that. But like five minutes, you know, someone went to bat for me, they were excited and it said to me, yeah, this is the right place. You know, for me, they really valued what I’m bringing. So that’s just what I want to emphasize to everybody is that even if they’re coming at you with a really impressive salary, that it’s always in the cards for you to negotiate, and if they’re going to low ball you from the beginning, I personally would walk away, because you know that they’re not valuing you for what you want. So like, when they low ball you, you might get maybe 2000 more, maybe.

43:36 My-Linh: And if that’s where you’re starting, all of your bonuses, all of your pay increases from there, start from that point. So that’s why I want to just emphasize for everybody that having that base salary is really important to negotiate. And then there’s other things you can do in terms of like, you know, PTO or other professional development things, which fortunately they were already included in my package. So there wasn’t really that much more for me to ask because they had given me what I wanted with salary. So the worst they can say is no. The best is, you know, you get some increase in that base.

5 Minutes Could Gain You $15K

44:12 Emily: I really like that you mentioned these timelines. So it was a five-minute conversation that you spent three days intensely preparing for, especially emotionally. But I think also some logistically, so you put scripts together and so forth. But as we talked about earlier, it’s also the years of building towards this moment that gave you those tools and the mindset to know to ask for that extra $15,000. And that, I mean, that is a big amount of money, even on top of an already generous salary. I mean, that’s almost going to be your whole 401(k) for like the whole year. So it’s an amazing amount of money, but just knowing there was so much preparation, just to keep in mind, there was so much preparation that went into that five-minute conversation. Not even just the three days immediately spent before it. Is there anything else that you want to share about that negotiation process?

45:05 My-Linh: I would say that it is stressful, but there are a lot of resources out there on how to prepare for that. And practicing is crucial. Again, like I mentioned, you know, you probably get to negotiate maybe like three, four times in your life, maybe on a salary, whereas recruiters do this all the time. So it does take preparation and you can do it, and there are lots of resources and I’d be happy to share those with you. And practice. Practicing it out loud so that you feel comfortable.

Balancing Work and Finishing the PhD

45:36 Emily: That’s a very generous offer. Just to give like a quick update. So you’re, I don’t know, a month or two into actually, you’ve started this job now. But you’re also still finishing your dissertation. So can you just give us an update on how things are going now that you’ve started this fantastic job and what your plans are for the coming months?

45:57 My-Linh: Yeah, so actually part of the negotiation was asking for a later start date. And yeah, being able to actually have like three extra months to put in full-time work on my PhD, knowing that I had a job, gave me some peace of mind. So, also, right, you can negotiate for a later start date. But yeah, it’s been tough navigating both, right, when you’re sort of like onboarding. And I knew I wanted to get to a certain place in my thesis to just sort of feel comfortable with doing both. And, fortunately, I work on a globally distributed team. I can work flexible hours. And so I mostly work on Eastern time hours. So I worked from 7:00 AM to 3:00 PM, take a break. And then I do thesis work for between like two to three hours. And I take Thursdays off from doing any additional thesis work.

46:50 My-Linh: But it’s a lot, so it’s a lot to be managing that. And I, like I said, I wanted to get to a certain part of my thesis where I didn’t have to do as much analytical work so that I can really focus on the writing. And not everyone has, you know, things don’t always work up with the timing. But yeah, that’s sort of where I am right now. My job, you know, knows that I’m working on my PhD, is 1000% behind me finishing my PhD. And so that’s another thing I think I wanted to mention is that people oftentimes think that, you know, organizations don’t value your PhD or you need to your PhD. There are institutions that want you because you have that credential and because you have that knowledge. And being at a place that recognizes the effort that you’ve put in and wants you to fulfill, you know, your degree is a place that you want to be. You know, a place that you can use your PhD and that values that. So that’s another thing I want to emphasize in job searching.

Money Mindset Influenced by The Wealthy PhD

47:53 Emily: With our second to last question here, I want to come back to where we started the conversation, which is where you and I met, which was through The Wealthy PhD. And one of the sort of effects of The Wealthy PhD that I could see on you especially is that you really took to the mindset, the financial mindset, the money mindset aspect of that curriculum. And you really, even more so than I do, like were implementing the strategies from, you know, working on your money mindset. So can you just speak a little bit about what influence The Wealthy PhD or the mindset stuff that you learned from The Wealthy PhD, what effect that has had on this job career search process?

48:31 My-Linh: Now, I think The Wealthy PhD was so crucial right at that time when I was job searching and also just ready to like get my finances in order and be responsible. And so yeah, one of the first activities was around mindset and just understanding how many limiting beliefs there are as a PhD student about money. Especially around yeah, how you should be valued in the workspaces if you’re not in academia. And so this idea of like PhDs, we’re so passionate about research, it’s fine if we don’t make a ton of money, that’s not the priority. And it still isn’t, you know, my salary isn’t my priority. Or this idea that like I have all this specialized knowledge and people outside aren’t going to value that. And, you know, I shouldn’t work at these places because they don’t value what I do or, you know, there’s so many limiting beliefs around money.

49:27 My-Linh: And being one of the first activities that we did, I think it was helpful to say like, well do the research that proves or disproves this. You know, where do you see this being affirmed, and where do you not? And then anyone who knows me knows that I love a good affirmation or two or 10. So to share those affirmations, I have them on sticky notes and I continue to share them with other people who are job searching, which is my skills and talents are in demand, and I deserve to be paid well. Those two, you know, they’re very simple, but I kept looking back at those, you know, on my sticky note to kind of ground me in my search. And so that was huge. For me, you know, when I sort of got the job offer to be like, yes, this is the affirmation realized. My skills and talents are in demand, and I deserve to be paid well.

50:23 My-Linh: And obviously this wasn’t some like woo-woo magic, right? Like there’s a lot of work that went into realizing that, but that definitely, you know, when we talked earlier about what sustained me, having that to ground me in my job search was exceptionally helpful. So yeah, people are going to come in with all sorts of, you know, mindsets about money, about the job search. And, you know, even people listening today and be like, “Oh, this isn’t for me. You know, I’m not there. I don’t have those circumstances.” So, you know, what I have to say to that is like, you find what works for you. Maybe the affirmation doesn’t work. But you have to find the mindset that’s going to facilitate you doing what you need to do. And if you want to continue having the limiting belief, then that’s only a disservice to you. And so how do you get yourself in this space? Not from a toxic positivity mindframe, but the idea of like what is going to help me be successful initiating my goals? And having a healthy mindset is a part of that.

Overcome Your Limiting Beliefs

51:24 Emily: I think you phrased that so well. And this interview, and this part of this interview, I think can be one of those examples of when someone listening has a limiting belief around how their skills can be valued outside of academia, or whatever. They can say, “Well, I heard My-Linh talk about this wonderful job that was such a good fit for her that’s paying her fabulously,” and look at that. That is an example of, you know, a counterexample from this limiting belief that I have. I’m glad you mentioned, like, this is not woo-woo, this is not toxic positivity because there’s a phrase that I see kind of thrown around sometimes, which is whether you believe you can, or you can’t, you’re right. Which is not a hundred percent true, right? There are actual, in real life, not in your head barriers to you achieving something that you want to achieve, whether it’s in your finances or your career or whatever. But it is also true that your mind and your mindset will limit you if you allow it to. So, like, in addition to those real, in the world, barriers that many, many people face, don’t add your own mindset on top of that, right? Like do the work to get your mindset in the right place so that you can do the best you can in the circumstances that you’re in. And also of course, work to dismantle those barriers for yourself and for other people later on. So is there anything else you wanted to add about this before we conclude the interview?

52:45 My-Linh: Yeah, I guess I wanted to just be open with our listeners and to say, you know, I don’t share my story to say, “Oh, look at me. I make all this money, I have this great job and look what I’ve achieved.” I share this story to say, imagine the unfathomable happening. Imagine that I’m in your corner rooting for you, too. This is not about a competition. This is not about who gets paid more. Who’s valued more. I want everyone to find a job where they’re paid well, and using the skillsets and talents that they have. And so I just want to hold vision for everyone who’s listening. You know, like I’m not sharing this story to say, this is the magic bullet to do things. I’m sharing the story so that you can also see and plant the seed that it’s possible for you, too. And, you know, again, when I said earlier about, you know, who’s kind of in your support system, you want people who are rooting for you for that job that you want, and that pays you well. And, you know, count me in that corner.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

53:44 Emily: Oh, thank you so much for that thought, My-Linh. I wish we actually were ending the interview there, but I have one more question for you, which is the one I ask of all my guests. Which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

53:58 My-Linh: Yeah, I think for me thinking about, we talk a lot about investing, and I think about investing in quality of life. Investing in the things that are important to you. And there’s a lot of like scarcity in the PhD world. We don’t have large salaries. I’ve lived in that space. But spending money on things that you know are going to be helpful in supporting you professionally, personally, in achieving your goals. And I can’t emphasize enough. Like I invested in myself by being a part of the Wealthy PhD, and other PhD communities that I’m a part of. And yes, that’s money, and it seems like a lot of money. And it’s not directly related to your research, but taking time to figure out where you want to invest in yourself and what that looks like monetarily, to help support you in your goals is something that I would recommend to all early-career PhDs or in general to anybody. But I think oftentimes, right, this idea of just we have to save all this money. I don’t have money for this, find places where you can invest money in yourself. Not the market, but yourself for the longterm.

55:10 Emily: I love that sentiment, of course. And I’ll add onto that as well. Like just to broaden that thought into the rest of our conversation on this job search and career exploration process. Like you’re investing heavily in yourself by getting a PhD by all the opportunity costs that you are incurring, by all the time, heavy, heavy investment. But getting the PhD is like maybe an 80% solution to getting the job that you want. Like you need to put in that last 20% of the career exploration, of the networking, of the professional development, of all the stuff that we’ve been talking about during this conversation to really ultimately land that job that’s a great fit for you and compensate you on everything that we’ve been talking about today. So like, it’s just getting, we’ve used this ball metaphor a couple times, but just getting to that, like finish line, getting to the end zone, like just that last couple of steps of the process to give you that amazing satisfaction in your career that you are hopefully now going to enjoy.

56:02 Emily: Yeah, you need to do that last little bit of investment on top of what you’re already putting into the PhD or else, you know, you could enter the PhD and not be super happy with a job that you end up with because PhD programs don’t really prepare you that well for the many, many types of jobs that are available to PhDs. You have to do just that bit more that we’ve been talking about. So My-Linh, I loved this conversation, and thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing all of this with the listeners. You’ve mentioned LinkedIn a couple of times. Is there any other good place where people can find you?

56:33 My-Linh: That’s probably the best place to find me, and yeah. Feel free to connect with me. I’d be happy to talk more specifically about my job search or about my job. So yeah, feel free to link up with me on LinkedIn.

56:45 Emily: Very good. Thank you so much.

56:46 My-Linh: Thanks, Emily!

Outtro

56:53 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student Is Riding the Meme Stocks and Crypto Roller Coasters

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In this episode, Emily interviews Cara Davidson, a graduate student at Western University. Cara has a “tumultuous” income from assistantships, scholarships, and freelance writing, and she built up a considerable nest egg thanks to diligently tracking her spending. She started investing in January 2021 in mutual funds and also meme stocks and crypto. Cara details her investing motivation, philosophy, and sources, shares how much mental bandwidth she devotes to her positions, and gives great advice for anyone already invested in or considering investing in meme stocks and crypto.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

grad student meme stocks and crypto

Teaser

00:00 Cara: Do your research. Just because it’s a meme stock, that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be some kind of data behind it. Don’t just do it because the internet says to do it.

Introduction

00:15 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 9, and today my guest is Cara Davidson, a graduate student at Western University. Cara has a “tumultuous” income from assistantships, scholarships, and freelance writing, and she built up a considerable nest egg thanks to diligently tracking her spending. She started investing in January 2021 in mutual funds and also meme stocks and crypto. Cara details her investing motivation, philosophy, and sources, shares how much mental bandwidth she devotes to her positions, and gives great advice for anyone already invested in or considering investing in meme stocks and crypto.

01:06 Emily: I’d like to share with you a personal update now. As I discussed in Season 8 Episode 18, my husband and I purchased our very first home last spring in north San Diego County. It was an area we’d never lived in or near before but we are location independent with respect to work and just got a really good feeling from the city. We’ve been living in our house for about five months now and are settled into a pretty pleasant routine. Our older daughter started kindergarten in August, and our younger daughter is in preschool. After a year and a half of either no childcare or grandparent childcare, it’s amazing to have our children back in a school setting. It’s great for them to be among peers, and it’s great for us to have quiet, uninterrupted work time. We also enrolled the kids in introductory sports classes, which is quite hilarious to watch.

01:58 Emily: We’ve made friends with a few of our neighbors, and I’ve organized a once-per-month social gathering in our neighborhood park. We have a goal to explore one new-to-us point of interest each weekend, so we’ve been to numerous beaches, parks, tourist attractions, etc. It definitely isn’t considered hip, but my husband and I both really wanted this quiet, suburban, family-oriented lifestyle, and I think we’ve made a good start at cultivating it after so many years of putting down only shallow roots. COVID has of course made its mark on this process and has dampened the in-personal socializing that I would otherwise have hoped for. I am really thankful to live in an area where it’s pleasant to be outdoors year-round. That was one of the main reasons we moved away from Seattle in summer 2020. We are here for the long-term, though, so I hope with time and vaccine availability for the younger children, we will eventually develop a robust network of local friends. So I just wanted to let you all know that things are going well following our move, and even though buying a house in a place we’ve never lived before was an odd thing to do, it seems to be working out. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Cara Davidson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:12 Emily: I’m really excited to have joining me on the podcast today, Cara Davidson. She is just finishing up her master’s now, starting a PhD program in the fall. We are recording this by the way in June, 2021. Cara has been on an investing journey, specifically regarding meme stocks and crypto and other kinds of investing. And I’m so excited to have her because I haven’t had a conversation about this yet. Obviously it’s been in the news and on a lot of people’s minds, and I know there are so many people in my audience who are interested in this kind of investing because it’s garnered so much attention and it’s so exciting. And I’ve been getting questions in my seminars actually about how do I pay capital gains tax on this money that I made from, you know, this kind of investing? So super excited to have Cara on. Cara, would you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

03:58 Cara: Yeah, absolutely. So, as you mentioned, I’m finishing up my master’s and then launching my PhD in the fall. I’m specializing in mixed methods research involving intimate partner violence and looking at how that can affect breast cancer. So I’m really excited for that, but I’ve yet to defend. So that’s kind of the bane of my existence right now. And yeah, in terms of investing, I got into that in January. It’s brand new to me still, I guess that was like the height of the meme stocks. And I got in just in time and I’ve been riding the wave ever since. It’s been a lot of fun for me. And then I’ve also been dabbling in cryptos, which I also find really interesting, especially just because of the volatility of the market, which I know is a huge disincentive for many people. But for me, it’s a lot of fun because you can make a lot of money really quick, but I guess you can also lose it all pretty fast too. So I’m looking forward to discussing all of that.

04:55 Emily: Yeah. We’ll get into that in a moment. And can you tell us what university you attend?

05:01 Cara: Yes. So I attend Western University in London, Ontario but I’m doing so remotely right now. So I’m at home in Ottawa at the moment.

Balance Sheet: Cashflow and Side Hustle Income

05:08 Emily: Okay, great. So first question is, let us know what your balance sheet looks like right now. And actually it’d be helpful to talk about cashflow too. Like what’s your stipend? What basically are, you know, you spending on living expenses, and how much are you able to save, and how much have you accumulated in what?

05:25 Cara: So, I’m a freelance writer, so I’m going to say that first because when I was doing my research on my own finances for this interview, I was a bit surprised at how much it really does fluctuate. So like I’ve made as little as $1,700 in a month and I’ve made as much as over $8,000 in a month. So, I really like month-to-month don’t know what’s going to come my way. It can be really lucrative and it can be tight. And in a year also, like, I wouldn’t say I even have an annual salary because I’m so dependent on grad funding, like scholarships that I’m applying to, GRA positions if I’m fortunate enough to get one, teaching assistantships. So even putting like a dollar amount on my annual income is difficult just because like, I really don’t know what I’m going to earn until it happens.

06:18 Emily: Okay. So you have the freelance writing side hustle, but I assume it brings in more than your main hustle, right? Being a graduate student, but it sounds like even that aspect of it is not, it’s not fixed or steady, right? Your income as a graduate student is fluctuating.

06:33 Cara: No, not at all. So like, as I mentioned before, like that about like one and a half to $8,000 range, that can come in freelance, I’ve made like 200 bucks in a month and I’ve also made $3,000 in a month and that’s just doing it like part-time, as I can, as a grad student. I was fortunate enough to get the Ontario Graduate Scholarship for last year, or I guess technically this year, which was $15,000. And then the Canada Graduate Scholarship for next year which is 17 and a half thousand dollars. But those kind of aren’t ideal because they go to tuition first. So like, you’re like, yay, $15K. And then immediately like $8,000 gets taken from you. So that’s not ideal. And then depending on whether or not I get the research assistantships and I get the TA ships, I’m making, the research assistantship’s like one to $2,000 a month. And then the teaching assistantship is about $5,000 a month, but I mean, it’s so variable. And then I got another scholarship for $1500. I don’t know if that’s coming again in the PhD, like they don’t tell you until it happens. And then one other source of income that I’ve recently gotten into is flipping things on Kijiji. So like buying like old wood furniture and sprucing it up. I really enjoy that. But then again, like that’s $0 some months and like $500 next, so.

07:53 Emily: Wow.

07:54 Cara: My finances are tumultuous, to say the least.

07:58 Emily: Yeah. That’s definitely, that’s a great word to describe it. Is at least the freelance writing, like anti-correlated with your graduate student income? Like, are you able to, if you know, you have slow months coming up for like scholarship-wise you can ramp it up, or is it also just not really under your control? Just like whatever work comes your way.

08:17 Cara: So right now I’m fortunate that I have clients that just show up in my inbox and they’re like, “Hey, I need something from you.” Just because I’ve been working with them for a long time. So that part, I don’t have much control over, but if I do have a slow month, I can go to my platforms and like apply to things and likely get jobs. So I have a lot of peace of mind from that, that like, no matter what happens, like let’s say I don’t get a scholarship next year or whatnot. Like I can still rely on that and I will be able to support myself.

Balance Sheet: Savings and Investments

08:48 Emily: Yeah. I feel like this could be a whole podcast interview in itself just on the freelance writing, which is really exciting. But also on dealing with the irregular income aspect of it. However, this is not the subject that we propose to talk about today. So I am curious though, I asked about your balance sheet. So like are you in debt for example, or how much of your assets are devoted to maybe cash savings to help you buffer these irregular months? And how much do you actually have working for you in terms of investments?

09:17 Cara: Yeah, so right now in my bank I have about $7,000 and I like to keep it normally around like three to 4,000. So I’m looking for something to do with that extra cash, just because I had a busy freelance month. In terms of debt, I am very lucky that I don’t have any. So in my undergrad, I was so lucky that my parents would pay my rent and all I had to do is worry about like tuition, books, and food. So that kept me out of debt for sure. And now getting the scholarships, like I’m able to pay off the tuition right away, because that would be my biggest expense. So, and then my partner and I just paid off his car that I now use. So I helped with like the remaining payments. That’s gone.

09:58 Cara: So I really don’t have any debt. In terms of credit cards, like I use one as a debit card. I heard that’s good for your credit score. So I do that. But I pay that off like every two weeks so that I don’t really consider that a debt. And then in terms of investments, I’m pretty busy in that front. So I have a TFSA that I’m able to use. I forget their official title, they’re a professional investment manager. And I maxed out my TFSA, which was good, which is about, I gave them like $34,000 at the beginning of the year and now it’s become $36,000. So that was exciting for me, that was like my first foray into investing and it worked out. But that’s a long-term hold. Like I’m not going to touch that money like in my mind ever. It’s just going to be there forever until I really need it.

10:46 Cara: I opened an RRSP which was fun. I’m doing that through Wealthsimple. That’s where I do my like traditional investing. And I’ve managed to make a couple hundred dollars on that as well. It’s sitting at about like $5,000, I think. And then I also have a personal account. So before I opened the RRSP, I was dabbling in Wealthsimple. And that’s just like, like I will get taxed on it, which is the sad part for me, but that’s okay. And that’s where I’m holding my meme stocks, which was not smart on my part. So like, let’s say those do really take off, then I’ll be paying the price for that, but that’s okay. I believe in taxes. It’s fine. And then I have a couple of different crypto wallets where I hold things.

11:31 Cara: So I’ve got like $4,000 in cryptos, I’d say. And so I really liked Celsius. So Celsius is a wallet where you can hold your cryptos, but you also earn interest on those cryptos. So like I’m buying tokens that I would hold anyways, but I’m earning like up to 14% interest on those year over year. So that’s been fun for me as well. And then just holding in various wallets, like my long-term things that like, I’m hoping in five years we’ll be up enough that I can cash out and make a profit.

12:02 Emily: Yeah. So, it definitely sounds like you’re not all in on any one thing, right? You have a variety of different strategies and places going on for our American listeners. I think the RRSP and TFSA equivalents would be like our IRAs or other tax-advantaged types of, you know, supposed to be for retirement type accounts. Versus just holding things in like a taxable brokerage account, which you also have. Yes. Wonderful. So yeah, you, you only started in January, but it sounds like you had a fast start because you had savings to devote to it already, right?

12:34 Cara: Yes. Absolutely. So like I worked through high school and I didn’t spend a dime and that’s why I was able to have that cushion. And it was just sitting in my cash account and I kept thinking like, I should do something, even if it’s only 5% interest like that matters for inflation and whatnot. So I was able to have a nice little nest egg to devote.

Strategies and Mindset for Building Savings

12:51 Emily: Yeah. So let’s talk for a moment. Were there any other strategies that you use to build up the savings that you were then able to invest and also your current level of savings? So you’ve already mentioned the freelance writing career, of course, finding funding as a graduate student. Anything else that you practice or related to your mindset that helped you build up the savings?

13:09 Cara: Absolutely. I track everything. I’ve been tracking everything since I was in high school. I have like my own Excel sheet where I put in all of my expenses every month. Like absolutely everything. And that’s helped keep me accountable a lot. So like I was exploring those food kits that will get delivered to your door, but they end up being so expensive. So I was looking at my grocery bill, and as soon as it hit over like $300 a month, I was like, nah, I can’t do that. Like I’d much rather put the money towards something else. So I’ve definitely dialed back on that. But if I wasn’t tracking like that, I wouldn’t see these things that crop up. And like, I find you forget in a month what you’ve actually spent things on. So like, I have a puppy and I would love to spend all my money on her. And like, I’ve noticed that, okay, you’ve already spent this much on her. Like maybe you can pass on that special thing for her this month and then get it the next month just to keep a more consistent level of expenses. So I’d say that’s been the biggest thing for me was keeping myself very much accountable in terms of what I am spending and relative to the income coming in that month.

14:18 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like, I mean, that tracking is not at all passive for you. You’re really looking at the data and then making different decisions based on what you’re seeing. So I absolutely love to hear that.

Progression to Crypto/Meme Stocks

14:29 Emily: Okay. So I think you mentioned earlier that you just started with investing in this past January, so like five months ago. And you started with a bang because you had the cash savings to put towards some different things. Of the different investments that you mentioned, was the more like classic type of investing the first thing that you did, or did you start out on these like crypto/meme stocks more? How did that progress?

14:54 Cara: So I started for sure with the TFSA. I had already put a little bit of money in there, like maybe under $10K, but I didn’t really know how to use it. That’s not very clear. So I wanted to max it out. I may as well while I can. And so that’s when I connected with the investment advisor and they were able to actually invest in different stock portfolios for me. And then I was just watching the number for like a few months and I was like, “Meh, like this isn’t doing what I would like. Like I’m young, I can take on some risks.” And I feel really comfortable with the amount that I have in that right now. So why not? Let’s do something more fun in the future and where there’s more risk, but the reward is higher and I can be more engaged with it. Because with the TFSA like, you don’t really touch it unless you need to move around your portfolio, which my advisor would do, and I wouldn’t. So I wanted something more hands-on because I do find it fun. So that’s where I got into the meme stocks and the cryptos

Getting into Meme Stocks

15:56 Emily: Let’s start with meme stocks because that’s been like the newer story. Crypto has been an exciting ride for a number of years now. So with meme stocks, you said you started in January. And when you volunteered to be on the podcast, that was in March, we’re now getting around to actually recording this interview in June. So I know there’s been some developments over that time as well. So, yeah, just tell me like what your experience was through those through these last few months.

16:19 Cara: It has been a wild ride. So I started in January. I got in on the floor of GME at like 40 bucks based on something I read on Reddit. I’ve been a part of that community ever since, but moving around there were problems in the WallStreetBets community, which I guess that happens when there’s money involved. So I’m in another one that’s like a little more secure and they call them like shills. So less people trying to sway your opinion and more of like, here’s the data look at the data, which is fun.

16:52 Emily: Is that also on Reddit?

16:53 Cara: Yeah. So a lot of how I’m involved in the meme stocks. So, I’m in on GME and AMC. Since January I’ve been holding, like they went like way up. I don’t know if you heard around like it was around my birthday and like the end of January, they just went way up and then Robinhood blocked buying. And that was like a massive thing. I was so upset because that just basically like, like cut off the feet of the short squeeze, and I’ve been holding ever since because I’m like, just because they turned off buying doesn’t mean that the short interest is any less. That doesn’t mean that they don’t have to cover. So I’ve been holding since, and then actually this week there has been like crazy developments once again. So AMC really shot up yesterday, like 99%.

17:40 Cara: They’re struggling today, but I have confidence. There’s big meetings coming up. But that actually reminds me, so like we call them meme stocks, and that’s what everybody knows them as, but AMC and GME, the reason why they’re actually successful is because there’s a lot of data behind what we’re doing. And I probably shouldn’t say we, because that sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen, but based on the data that’s available in the short interest in knowing that anyone who shorted the stock does need to cover, but if we’re all buying and holding these stocks and so many people, so many retail investors do, there’s nothing to buy up. And so when you have that much demand and that little availability that creates a short squeeze and then boom, off we go to the moon. And then I cash out. But I’ve been waiting five, six months for that and it looks like it’s on the horizon again. So we’ll see. We’ll see, stay tuned.

18:35 Emily: Yeah. Well, I would like to hear about the future. So like for you personally, do you have a plan for when you’re going to exit this position or partially exit it?

18:44 Cara: Certainly. I don’t have a dollar amount, but I do want to see indicators. Like yes, we are indeed in the short squeeze. Like, a short squeeze does not happen in a day, and it doesn’t shoot up a stock by a hundred percent. Like, it’s pretty exponential in terms of how that works. In considering who’s involved in shorting the stock, and like basically when you short a stock, like you’re betting that the company is going to go under, go bankrupt, et cetera. I’m not a huge fan of Wall Street and how they’re playing this. Like, there are a lot of shady things going on. So like, even if it goes to like a thousand dollars a share, I’m not selling. Like that’s not worth it for me. I would really like to stick it to the people who are manipulating the economy and running these like innocent businesses under. So in that regard, I need to see that the short squeeze is happening. I need to see that Wall Street is scrambling to cover everything. And then I’ll probably hold on a little longer and then sell on the way down. Because I don’t want to miss the peak.

Commercial

19:52 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD Workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Our next live discussion and Q&A call is on Wednesday, October 20th, 2021. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success! Now back to the interview.

Initial Amount of Money Invested in Meme Stocks

21:04 Emily: So when we started talking about your portfolio overall, you mentioned, you know, certain dollar amounts, 30 some thousand that you put towards this and that or the other. You can share whatever you want of this, but I’m wondering how much money you initially invested in these two stocks? Because I want to get an idea of like how big this was. It’s probably big in your world now, but how big was it at the beginning?

21:28 Cara: I’ve been like gung-ho since the beginning, but I also did not trust like the information I was getting totally. Because like I found this on Reddit. Like let’s not go too far here. So let’s see. I think I wrote down what I put in. Did I, did I not? Okay. I think I put $750 in AMC and I’ve got like a $2,500 return now. It’s still not worth it for me. The squeeze hasn’t happened. And then I think GME, I did maybe about 1400, $1,500. So, like that is a lot of money, but for me, like relative to like the TFSA I have to fall back on, like it’s not a big deal for me. If I lose that, I can recoup it based on my freelance. And like the risk for me isn’t, I don’t find it that high. I do believe that like these companies will go up, so I’m not worried about that. And I got in while the floor was still low. Like if you’re buying in now and it’s like 250 bucks and you want to buy a lot of shares, it’s going to be a lot more money for you. So I would hesitate then, maybe. But yeah, I’d certainly put about like 2,500 in total, under $3,000. And just to see like where it took me.

22:46 Emily: I feel like that amount of money is a lot of money, like in a grad student world. We’re talking about, you know, one month stipend, maybe a little bit more, a bit less. That’s a lot of money. But for you, because you had these other sources of income, you had, you know, the good savings going on. As part of your overall portfolio, it wasn’t a big percentage. And that’s something that I, so I’m kind of a dyed in the wool, like passive investor. And so, the advice that I hear from other people who promote passive investing is like, okay, sure. Like if you want to, you know, get into these like exciting trends and be part of it. And like you were saying, maybe you want to make a statement with your money about the policies of Wall Street and so forth, do it, but do it with an amount of money that you can afford to lose that’s not going to hurt you, right? It’s not going to make you lose sleep at night or anything like that. So it sounds like that’s actually what you did. And so it’s been an exciting part of your portfolio, but it’s not anywhere near the majority of your portfolio.

23:43 Cara: No, no. And that would give me stress. To lose it all would hurt my pride and that’s fine, but like, I wouldn’t be putting myself in any danger whatsoever. Like I would be perfectly able to like continue living my life and to recoup that. And like, I would never bet my life savings. I know some people do. It’s all or nothing, but I’m too risk adverse for that. Like, I do have a tolerance, so yeah. I wouldn’t recommend that. This has worked out for me just fine so far. And I’m very comfortable with what I’ve invested and where I’m at.

Time and Energy Spent on Meme Stocks

24:19 Emily: So I think what you said was that you took this initial position in January, and you’ve been holding it since then. So I am wondering about the amount of like attention you’re giving to this, given that you haven’t actually changed anything about your position. At some point you will sell, we think but yeah, like how big is this in terms of your time and your energy?

24:41 Cara: I absolutely adore it. Like I’m checking on it every day. I will take a break if it’s like been a slow week or whatever. I’m like, man nothing’s changed. But like this past week now that things have been going up again and looking promising, like there’s a big shareholders meeting coming up, we’re going to hear Q1 earnings, all of that stuff. I’m like, oh, okay. Let me just keep up with this again. So I will say that I do spend a lot of time. I like reading the DD, the due diligence, on all the forums and just keeping up with what everyone else is talking about. And I’m not sure that I would be devoting the same attention or would be this invested if we weren’t in a pandemic where this is like one of my only hobbies that I can still access. So it’s been nice to belong to a community virtually and you kind of explore this together. So I would say I do devote a good chunk of time to it, but like I see it as just like a fun hobby that I’m doing. I don’t see it as an obligation because, “Oh my God, I’m a shareholder now. And I’m worried about my portfolio,” and all that. That’s not the case.

25:50 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you’re going about this in a really healthy manner. So I’m really happy to hear that. Anything else you want to add about meme stocks before we talk about crypto?

26:02 Cara: I will say if you’re thinking about going into meme stocks, just be careful now on the forums. Now that we’ve had our moment of glory, there’s a lot of people out there with I would say like nefarious intentions. Like as soon as we had that day where GME hit $450 at the end of January, all of a sudden all of the ads, all of the new accounts that were made and they were all shilling silver, and everyone’s like, who’s investing in silver? Like there’s no, no one’s shorting silver. What’s going on? And a lot of people lost a lot of money on that because it was basically a pump and dump to distract attention from what was happening with GME. And that’s still happening now, especially right now as we’re chatting because we’ve had such a wild week. So do your research. Just because it’s a meme stock, that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be some kind of data behind it. Like for example, AMC and GME are based on potential for short squeeze and that’s a proven concept. It happened with Volkswagen way back. So still do your research. Don’t just do it because the internet says to do it.

27:10 Emily: Yeah, that’s great. Well, I think you’re speaking to a receptive audience in that respect of PhDs and PhDs to be.

Experience with Cryptos

27:16 Emily: Okay. Let’s turn the attention to crypto, then. You also started investing at that time. Tell us about your position and what your experience has been.

27:23 Cara: Yeah. So in cryptos, it’s also kind of like the meme stocks where I’m not putting a ton of money in it. I’ve got maybe like $4,000 in there. And I like to just like keep sifting through things and changing out my positions and whatnot. My long-term holds are Nano and anything that I have in Celsius, so that would be MATIC, Ripple, and the Celsius token. And that’s just because I believe that they will continue to go up over time. And I don’t feel the need to like work around the increases and decreases that happen and the fluctuations on like a daily, weekly basis. I’m not in Bitcoin or Ethereum. I’m not a fan of the gas fees. I think that’s ridiculous. That’s why I’m such a big fan of Nano because it’s instant, it’s feeless, it’s green. And so that’s why I think like that will certainly be a strong contender in the future of crypto.

28:19 Cara: I am invested into, I guess, meme cryptos. When I heard that Elon Musk was going on SNL, I got into Dogecoin because I’m like, definitely the exposure is going to drive it up. So I got in like maybe 27 cents or something, and I got to exit about 50 or 60 cents. So that was like a tidy little return and I cleansed my hands and that was good. And then I bought in again, actually once it went back down after just because I don’t know what’s going on with Elon Musk, but like he loves it and he won’t stop talking about it and he wants to integrate it into everything. So I’m like, okay, if you’re going to have anyone behind a crypto that’s going to be actually used daily and whatnot and at least grow as an investment, then I might as well just hold like a couple hundred Dogecoin and see what happens.

29:13 Cara: And then I also invested in, I guess, a Dogecoin copy cat called Shiba Inu. It’s like, you know, like the sheep dog meme. Yeah. So it’s that. Definitely my most irresponsible investment, but it’s like fractions and fractions and fractions of a cent. So I’m like, I just put like a hundred dollars and this thing goes to 1 cent. Like that’s a good return. And I’m happy to just, like, I would spend a hundred dollars on like, I don’t know, maybe like a nice weekend with friends doing something. So I’m like, I might as well just tuck that away. I have nothing else to do right now. We’re locked down. And let’s just check on it in like 10 years and let’s see what happens. I’m happy to wait. So that’s where I’m at.

29:56 Emily: I really like to hear these distinctions that you’re making between what you’re holding long-term, what you are buying because of instincts about where a particular different coin is heading, and then also that last point that you just made about, you’re really explicitly calling that entertainment at that point. Like I could spend 100 dollars on going out. Well, okay. That’s not available to me right now. Okay. A hundred dollars in this position. We’ll just like, it’s money spent. It’s gone. It’s not even like, you’re barely even thinking about it as an investment anymore at that point. Just like you sunk some money to something you’re having a good experience with it. And it doesn’t really matter what the outcome is, right? So I like to hear those distinctions. How are you, like, what are your sources when you’re doing research on these different cryptos?

30:43 Cara: I just think about what I would like as a consumer and someone who would like to use crypto in the future just to make transactions and make everything easier. So that’s, again, why Nano appealed to me. I wanted something that’s instant, like waiting 30 minutes for Bitcoin is ridiculous. And to think that you can pay like really ridiculous amounts of fees as well. Like sometimes I buy things on Binance, like coins and then I go to transfer them out to hold them in a secure wallet and it’s like paying 40 to $80 in fees. And I just don’t think that’s right. I don’t think that makes any sense at all. And then also seeing photos of these massive mining rigs that they have all over the world that are just chugging away, killing the planet. I’m like, as a currency of the future, that doesn’t make sense either. So I do believe the ones that have the most potential for adoption are ones that are green, that are as fast as a normal transaction, and that don’t carry those massive fees. Like nobody wants to pay more money just to use money. That doesn’t make any sense to me. So my long-term holds are ones that support that for the most part.

Resources to Learn About Cryptos

31:55 Emily: Yeah. I understand. I like your thought process on that. I’m actually wondering more, like, how do you find out about Nano, for example, like how did you think about yourself as a consumer and then match that with, oh, this point reflects what I would like?

32:09 Cara: Great. Like a couple of my friends are into it, so sometimes they’ll introduce coins to me and I’ll chat about that with them. I’m involved in a lot of crypto Reddit forums where I read up on new stuff coming out or updates and whatnot. I also, I just go on CoinMarketCap and I see like, who are the gainers? Who are the losers? Why’s that happening? Because they have like a really handy, like, you’ll see like the price action and all that. But if you scroll down, they’ll give you like a two-paragraph succinct explanation of what this coin is and what it’s hoping to achieve. And then normally like there’s blog posts about that coin that I’ll look at if I’m interested that list the pros and cons. And as soon as I see something like gas fees, I’m like, Hmm, Nope. Or long transaction times. Nope. I’m out. So that’s how I would say I find my responsible investments. My irresponsible investments are things that you hear other people talking about, like Dogecoin, where it’s just like a public movement where everyone’s like Dogecoin. That’s so funny. Let me buy some and then you go up and then you can sell. So I would hear about those ones from other people in like online, I guess, conversations. So it depends, I would say.

How Much Attention Are You Giving to Your Cryptos?

33:24 Emily: Yeah. So a similar question to when we were talking about the meme stocks, but like, how much attention are you giving to your crypto positions?

33:32 Cara: I check on Nano every day, because that’s my baby and I love Nano. So I will check on that constantly. I get really excited when there is price action and I obviously have the opposite reaction when it goes down. So I check on Nano every day. As for my other ones, like, I’ll take a look at them. I just like take a gander, like my Celsius wallet I’ll check on to make sure that I got my weekly interest as promised. And then I leave that alone. In terms of Dogecoin and Shiba. Like, I don’t want to hear about those for 10 years and then I will cash out. So, I would say really Nano is the only one that like I’m investing considerable time in. Like I’m in all the forums. I’m keeping up. Like we just had a new version update come out. Because there was like a massive spam attack that was clogging up the network. And obviously that needs to be solved to facilitate like massive adoption. So developers were great and they fixed it. And so like, I wanted to know everything that was going on with that, but I do not get that in depth with like any other crypto because I found my one and I’m sticking to it.

34:38 Emily: Okay. Got it. Yeah. We’ve gotten some, you know, great insights and great advice from this conversation so far. Is there anything else that you want to add about what you’ve learned about investing in meme stocks and or crypto? I’d love to especially hear a little bit more about the psychology of it. If you have any advice for someone who’s thinking about getting into this or who’s already in, but is wondering, what do I do now? I’m already in, now what?

To Do Cryptos, Or Not To Do Cryptos

35:01 Cara: If you’re a really impulsive person, I don’t think that you should do cryptos because you can go to bed at night and you’ll be up like 20% that day. And you’ll wake up in the morning and you’re down 25%. And there’s usually no clear reason as to why that happened. So if you’re the kind of person who’s going to panic and say, oh my God, I just lost a quarter of my investment. My life is over blah, blah, blah. Don’t do it to yourself. Like you will be so stressed. But if you’re a person who is more like me and like you’re happy to buy something and then leave it alone, like indefinitely until you want to use that money or just to see where you’re at out of interest, not out of like obligation and stress, then absolutely go for it.

35:42 Cara: That sounds fine for you. But I would worry if you’re an impulsive person that you’re going to buy high and sell low just constantly and just absolutely wreck your finances. And cause yourself a lot of stress that you don’t need. Like this is supposed to be fun. People aren’t taking most cryptos very seriously. You get kind of a mix with meme stocks, but even still, like I bought in at GME at $40, I held up to $450, and we went all the way back down to like 50, 60 bucks. And it’s been five months where I’ve been sitting here checking it every day to be like, what’s going on? What’s causing this price action? And if that doesn’t sound like fun to you, and I know it doesn’t to some people, just don’t do it. Like you don’t have to do it just because everyone else is, it doesn’t make any sense for you and you won’t enjoy it. And that’s the whole point I would say.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

36:33 Emily: Great advice. Thank you. And I think I would add onto that, the reason YOU can have that attitude about this is because it’s not a significant part of your portfolio. You’re not drawing any income from this. You have other sources of income that are coming in. Your whole life is not riding on, you know, the performance of these particular investments, right? You have this in balance with a lot of other things. So like, you CAN sleep well at night because you’re not depending on this. So a very, very important point to add on there. Well Cara, thank you so much for this interview. I really enjoyed speaking with you and learning about your experience with meme stocks and crypto. As we sign off, I just want to ask you the same question I ask of all my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

37:15 Cara: Advice in terms of meme stocks and crypto?

37:18 Emily: It could be related to that, or it could be completely something else.

37:22 Cara: I would say, just buy pretty much anything and just hold it. Just hold it and like, forget the password and have a reminder on your phone in five years with that password. Like do not touch your investments unless you know how to day trade. And I don’t think anyone really knows how to day trade consistently. Like it’s very, very hard to achieve. And it’s more dependent on the market than you and most times. So if you buy and you hold, you will be okay. But obviously to do that, make sure that you’re putting in money that you don’t need for five years and you won’t feel tempted to touch it all. So whether that’s like 20 bucks or a couple thousand, whatever that means for you do it and just forget about it. And then it’ll be there and ready for you hopefully in several multiples for you in a few years.

38:11 Emily: Sounds wonderful. Thank you so much, Cara. This was a great conversation. Thank you so much for volunteering.

38:16 Cara: No, thanks for having me. I had a lot of fun. It’s nice to discuss these things outside of my Reddit communities. I really appreciate it.

Outtro

38:30 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! PFforPhDs.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.