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This Grad Student Saved and Spent $60,000 for a Year-Long Seabbattical

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In this episode, Emily interviews Michael Spano, a fifth-year PhD student in chemistry at the University of California, Irvine. After seeing his stipend offer from UCI and securing university-subsidized housing, Michael resolved to save and invest as much money as he possibly could throughout grad school. Michael shares his financial philosophy of keeping recurring expenses low, splurging only on high-value experiences, and finding joy and fulfillment in inexpensive activities. Over the course of graduate school, Michael saved up approximately $60,000 in cash, which he has spent—listen through the end of the episode to find out on what. His post-graduation plans include a year-long sabbatical and pursuing financial independence.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

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Teaser

00:00 Michael: I talked about how I minimized all of my recurring costs so that I have a lot of ability to save, and that allows me to make these one-time purchases that I put a lot of value on. Things that I only have to buy once. For instance, you know, a wetsuit, it’s maybe a four or $500 investment, which, you know, if you don’t have savings, it’s a lot of money. But because I had this, you know, money saving up as I’m watching it grow, I’m like, Hmm, yeah, I’ll take a little bit off the top and I’m going to buy this equipment. And it gave me hours and hours and hours of joy.

Introduction

00:36 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 9, and today my guest is Michael Spano, who at the time of this interview was a fifth-year PhD student in chemistry at the University of California, Irvine. After seeing his stipend offer from UCI and securing university-subsidized housing, Michael resolved to save and invest as much money as he possibly could throughout grad school. Michael shares his financial philosophy of keeping recurring expenses low, splurging only on high-value experiences, and finding joy and fulfillment in inexpensive activities. Over the course of graduate school, Michael saved up approximately $60,000 in cash, which he has spent—listen through the end of the episode to find out on what. His post-graduation plans include a year-long sabbatical and pursuing financial independence.

01:59 Emily: I have a personal update for you all today. The last six months or so have been pretty hard for me and my family. Starting last fall, my husband and I had some extra caregiving duties for one of our parents pop up. And the conclusion of that journey a couple of months ago was the death of that parent. So, it’s been a very trying season of course managing all of our regular life plus these extra caregiving responsibilities. Plus it was tax season, which, you know, is like the busiest time of year for me. And then of course grieving and the funeral and all these associated things. So, it’s been a lot, and I just wanted to say thank you to you all. To everyone who has supported my business in any large or small ways through this period, I’m especially appreciative. I could not do any marketing for my tax return workshops outside of like this podcast and my own mailing list because I didn’t have the time and energy for it.

03:05 Emily: So, I super appreciate all of you who recommended that workshop, whether that was to an individual or to a potential sponsor at your university. It really helped me get through this season without a huge hit to the business revenue and so forth. And I also want to say, you know, thank you for your patience with me. Some of you may have emailed me during this time and I may not have gotten back to you or gotten back to you weeks or months later. And I’m really sorry about that. It had to happen. And one more, very special thank you needs to go to my team who works with me behind the scenes on the podcast and on other aspects of my business. Jill, Lourdes, and Meryem, I appreciate you so much. It is really, really all to their credit that things have been happening in the business. That your emails have been getting answered, that podcast episodes have been coming out, that transcripts are getting done, all of those sorts of things especially over the last few months. Literally, the business would have ground to a halt without you. So, thank you.

04:03 Emily: Now that we’re near the beginning of May, I have turned my thoughts to summer vacation. I am looking forward to a change of pace and hopefully some rest and recuperation over the summer. My kids are out of school from about early June to like mid-late August, and we have a couple of vacations planned. I’m going to a couple of conferences as Personal Finance for PhDs. My kids are enrolled in fun summer camps. I’m just really looking forward to a change of pace for the summer. One exciting thing about the podcast is that we’ll be doing something different with episodes over the summer and I really want you to contribute. So, please keep listening to this episode to find out how you can be part of the special set of episodes we’re doing over the summer.

04:50 Emily: What this experience has to do with finances, let’s see. I am really grateful to myself and my husband in the past for working very diligently on our finances and especially automating as much as we can. Because whenever you hit an emergency of any type, and we’ve been through a couple, having those finances automated is just a huge peace of mind that the bills are getting paid and you do not have to do anything to make that happen. I’m also really grateful that we, you know, have aggressively saved in the past because we did have some extra costs associated with the caregiving we were doing. And we didn’t have to worry about overdrawing the checking account. We had savings that we could rely on. And this experience of losing a parent and, you know, reflecting on the life that that person had and the relationship that we had with them, it makes you realize that <laugh> life is for living, you know?

05:38 Emily: And money should be in service of that. So, I do think that we are going to be adjusting our strategy going forward. We’re not going to be saving quite so aggressively for retirement. We’re really good on that front, and we’re going to be using our money a bit more in the here and now to upgrade our lifestyle and create, you know, lasting memories with our friends and family. So again, thank you so much for bearing with me through this time period. I’m really grateful to you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing these episodes. If you’d like to join my mailing list to keep up with new episodes coming out and other announcements from Personal Finance for PhDs, you can do so at PFforPhDs.com/advice. And why don’t you give your loved ones a hug or a phone call today? You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/S14E9. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Michael Spano.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

06:27 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Michael Spano. He’s a fifth-year PhD student at UC Irvine in chemistry, and he was actually recommended by past guest Sam McDonald from season eight, episode three. So, Michael, thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast, and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

07:05 Michael: Yeah, sure. Thank you for the warm welcome, Emily. I’m really happy to be here and talk about my story. Sam and I are domestic partners, so we share a lot of things in common. A little bit about my background. I’m actually a dual citizen with Brazil. I spent half of my life in Brazil. I had all of my primary education there, so middle school, high school, and college. And then I got lucky in college to have a Science without Borders fellowship. So I came to North Carolina and I got exposed to what like a science lab was in the United States, and I was hooked. So I knew I had to do my PhD here. So, ever since then I’ve been working to get back to the United States. And here I am doing my PhD at UC Irvine in chemistry, and I’m, yeah, stoked.

07:49 Emily: So, I understand that when you started your PhD, well, tell us what your stipend was. And tell us how that struck you. Having, you know, recently or let’s say for college, you were in Brazil and so obviously there’s currency and, and cost of living differences there. So like what were you thinking about that stipend when you first saw that offer letter?

08:05 Michael: Yeah, absolutely, right. So, the stipend was right around $30,000. And that was an enormous amount of money, like you said, having been coming straight from Brazil that was more money than any of my professors made at university in Brazil. So, it struck me as like an opportunity. Like if I play my cards right and I’m frugal about living, I could save a ton of money and be really well off. And mind you, if you go to a federal university in Brazil, it’s free. So, I didn’t have any debts from college. And I was going into a PhD where not only was I not accruing debt, they were paying me. So I could actually build net worth if I played my cards right. So, $30,000 a year was the largest amount of money I had ever seen at the time. And I think we can agree I kind of played my cards well and built something for myself.

Cost of Living Expenses

08:56 Emily: Yes, that will be revealed through the course of the episode. I know where the exciting conclusion is here, but the listeners don’t yet. But okay. I mean, you see the number $30,000 per year, I understand how that could strike you, but we also are talking about Southern California, which is incredibly expensive. So I don’t know if you had like the context for that at that time. Like when you lived in the U.S. before, was it also in a high cost of living area? Or like how did you, before you actually got on the ground in Irvine, did you have a concept of how much your basic living expenses would, you know, account for as part of that stipend?

09:27 Michael: That’s a fantastic question. Because no, I didn’t, I had no idea. You always hear like, you know, California’s super expensive. So, kind of to back up, I applied only to three grad schools because it costs money to apply. And, you know, at the time I didn’t have it. So, I applied to three schools, got into two of them, Chapel Hill and UCI. And UCI had this really cool deal where they guaranteed you student housing if you signed up for it in your first year. And it’s common in graduate programs, at least in chemistry, for them to fly you out to see the school and you get to meet the faculty and everything. So on that trip, you know, I took a quick look at all the facilities. I was like, great, yeah, everything checks out. It’s a top-notch school.

10:08 Michael: Let me go to Aldi and buy, you know, enough groceries for a week. Let me see what that costs. Let me go fill up the rental car that I have. Let me see what it costs to actually live here. And I talked a lot with the students about housing, and I saw that the rent varied a lot. The cheapest housing units at UCI were around $550 a month, which is like fantastic. And some of the more expensive ones were around $1,500. So, that’s a difference of a thousand dollars every month. That’s 12 grand a year. That’s a $60,000 difference over the course of your PhD. So, it was essential that I got one of those cheaper units. And because I got accepted into two programs, I was willing to walk away from UCI and go to Chapel Hill because the cost of living there is much cheaper if I didn’t get the housing assignment. Did that answer your question?

10:57 Emily: Yes, it did. So I think we’ve already, if there are any prospective graduate students listening to this, we’ve gotten some lessons there already from just what you said was going on during this admission season of you actually having the opportunity to be on the ground at the university. You were checking out what are the costs that you can observe, what are the costs that you can speak with other graduate students about? And like you said, housing is number one, the most key expense to identify and make sure that it’s going to be able to fit within your budget. So, this sounds like this was a point of negotiation with your program, that you said, I must have this guaranteed housing spot, or else I have to decline the admission. Is that correct?

11:33 Michael: Not quite. I didn’t quite have the power to enforce that requirement upon the school. But I did know the date in which they would tell me if I got the housing was still not too late, that I couldn’t turn down the offer and go and join the other school in North Carolina. So it was kind of like a plan B, if I didn’t get the cheap housing, I was willing to just say, okay, I’m out. I quit and I’m going to go to this other school that’s cheaper.

12:02 Emily: Yes. Okay. Maybe not for your situation, I don’t know, but for other prospective graduate students listening, don’t be afraid to try to use this as a point of negotiation. For you, it sounds like it was just a boundary. If I get this, I’ll go here, the numbers are going to work out. If I don’t, I’m going to go with my next top choice. And that’s totally fine to have that boundary for yourself. But other people could maybe go the next proactive step and just inform the program that that’s what you’re thinking and that is going to be a boundary that you’re setting for yourself. Okay. So, you have your $30,000 per year statement. You have your guaranteed lowest cost housing. You mentioned $550 per month. Is that what this has been during your graduate career, or has that changed?

12:45 Michael: Yeah, it’s been that and it’s gone up 15 bucks every year. So, I’m still in the range of like $600 something per month. Yeah.

Money Mindset in Grad School

12:53 Emily: Okay. Amazing. So, you know, you spoke earlier about, you know, being impressed by the amount of money and that you were interested in saving as much as you could of that stipend. Can you say anything more about what motivated you to think in that direction? Because it’s definitely not a typical goal for a graduate student.

13:14 Michael: Yeah, I think I just realized at some point, you know, like this money is freedom down the road, right? Like we exchange our life for money to do things we want. And if you’re not born into wealth, all you have to work with is your salary, right? If you’re not, if you don’t get an inheritance of, you know, $500,000, a million dollars, all you’ve got to work with is, either you come up with a really good idea, you start a business, you get rich, or you work with what you have. So, that was basically me realizing like, hey, this is a really good opportunity. I’m going to work with what I have. I did the math and you know, as we’re going to get into shortly, making some really severe like austerity measures, you can save a lot of money during grad school. It’s guaranteed income for five years, and if you play your cards right, you can save it. So, I think that’s where my head was at. You know, I realized, yeah, I wasn’t born into like a lot of wealth or anything. And this was what I had to work with. So, this was my shot I was going to take it and work with it.

14:19 Emily: So interesting again, and so unusual. I think I did something similar when I was in graduate school, though not to the same extreme as you in terms of the mindset that you had. My mindset was more like, I am an adult and I need to do adulty things with my money, even though I am also a graduate student. And so that involved like saving 10%. So I’m not thinking like, oh, I want to save every single dollar I possibly could, but like having a savings rate of some kind is something that, you know, I wanted to do. And so we had a similar thought process, but you’ve taken it a little bit further than I did at that time.

Minimizing Recurring Costs

14:53 Emily: So, let’s talk about the budget that you’ve had during graduate school, and later on we’ll discuss what you’ve, you know, decided to put those savings towards. But in terms of living expenses, what have those been aside from the rent, which we’ve discussed?

15:06 Michael: Yeah, so my philosophy on living expenses was to really take a hard look at everything that I was spending money on and asking, is this absolutely necessary? Do I really need this recurring cost? And I’ll be clear, I’m trying to minimize all of my recurring costs, like rent, like insurances, like cell phone bills, all these things that you have no choice. They get billed to you every month and you have to pay them, right? If you minimize those and you can save a lot of money, then you can choose to buy things when you want them, right? Like one-time payments for an object that will bring you lots of joy in my mind was better than subscribing to things over and over. And then, you know, wasting my salary because that, like I said, that was my only leverage is building up that savings.

15:53 Michael: So, my rent, I’m going to give you some numbers here annually, but my rent equates to about $7,200 annually. So for 12 months, I decided that, you know, in California you absolutely need a car. So I had a hand-me-down little car but it needs insurance, and that’s a recurring cost. So, even if my car is parked, it still costs me insurance. That was around $348 per year. And that’s another thing, a lot of people pay way too much for car insurance. Call the competitors and haggle. Say, Hey, I’ll switch to your company if you beat this price by 50 bucks. And when they do, call up the other competitors, like six companies. Just keep doing that until you drive the cost down.

16:34 Emily: I do have to say I’m very impressed by that number. Because I hear other people talk about their expenses for car insurance but I’m assuming you have a car that doesn’t have much value, right? And that mostly you have liability insurance is mostly what it’s there for.

16:48 Michael: Exactly. It’s just liability. A car is a tool. It shouldn’t, I’m sorry, this is my opinion, it should not be your pride and joy. That’s silly. It’s a trap. It’s a financial trap. If you’ve got a new car, sell it. Go buy a junker. Anyone giving financial advice would tell you that. Buy a junker, drive it until it explodes, fix it, and keep driving it. So here we are, rent $7,200 car insurance, $348 a year. My cell phone bill, I prepaid a whole year with Mint Mobile. They were doing this promotional. $109 for the whole year. And that’s for a four gigabyte plan, unlimited talk and text. The car needs a smog check in California, it’s $36 every year. Can’t get around that. It also needs to be registered, $128 a year. So right there, those are like my basics. Living and transportation. Mind you, I don’t have to put fuel in my car.

Retirement Saving and Discretionary Spending

17:36 Michael: So that’s not non-discretionary, that’s definitely discretionary. And then one thing that I put in my budget that I was not going to skip on was maximizing my Roth IRA. Now that’s a retirement account, it’s tax leverage. So you put money in that account that you’ve already paid taxes on and it grows tax-free and you can withdraw it under certain circumstances. But typically when you’re about to retire. So I max that out, it was $5,500 and it’s grown to $6,500 now. They might even change it this year or next year to compensate for inflation. So, when you add all those up, my non-discretionary spending, things I have no choice to pay. It’s $14,321 per year as you know, the criteria there. So my gross income is $30,000. You subtract those two and I now have a discretionary spending of $15,679.

18:31 Michael: So now, what do I choose to spend my money on? How am I going to live my life, live a fulfilled life, travel, see the world, be happy on $15,679? Well one, I buy California state park pass. So, that’s $200 a year and that gives me free parking to any of the state parks. So, I live six miles from a beach and that’s my go-to place. That’s my happy spot. I also bought some, well I’ll talk about that later, but groceries is a big one. I’ve got this supermarket called wholesome choice. I mostly eat vegetables, really healthy food. It’s $35 a week. So, that equates to $1,680 a year. I choose to have beer. I like my beer money. So, you know, having two or three beers a week, that’s, you know, at the grocery store. So, it’s six bucks a week. That equates to $288 a year.

19:25 Michael: Gasoline, let’s say $60 a month to go travel, see things that really opens up your horizons. That’s $720 a year. And then finally the National Parks Pass, which is a hundred dollars a year. And that, you know, just opens your world, right? And then California, we have so many national parks. That was, you know, hands down worth it. A hundred dollars a year. So now, add up my discretionary spending, that’s $2,983. Subtract that from my discretionary spending, and I’m left with what is my saving ability. So, I’m able to save $12,696 every year if I stick to this or roughly these numbers. So, that’s about a thousand dollars a month. So, multiply that for 12 months over the course of a PhD, five years, that’s $63,480. That’s not accounting for, if this money is in a savings account or invested in the stock market growing with the market, it’s actually more than that. It turns out to be like 70, 75,000 over that five-year span. So, that was the math I did. You know, if I can be happy putting gas in my car, going, seeing national parks, doing natural things, I don’t have to spend money on movie tickets or these other things or buying clothes or whatever, right? Whatever brings people happiness. Mine was cheap quality, good happiness, and I’ve lived a very fulfilling life.

20:50 Emily: That does bring me back to kind of a note or a point or a question that I wanted to make regarding what you said earlier about, you know, like not getting trapped into like high rent or like high transportation costs in terms of what you’re calling your recurring expenses. The expenses that have to go out the door every single month. It sounds to me like you do not value those things. So, you are going to spend as little as you possibly can. And thankfully, you know, UCI has given you a good deal on housing and so forth. So, it’s not like you have to go to market rent and everything like that and compete in Irvine for that. But I just wanted to point out that other people can have a different opinion about this.

21:29 Emily: The listeners, for example, might not want to follow your example of spending the absolute minimum possible amount of money on things like housing or transportation. And that’s okay. It’s just that you have determined, what I think is really fantastic about this story is that you have been very clear about what is important to you and what is not. And minimizing the spending on what is not important to you. You know, you’ve been very intentional about that and I fully agree with, advocate for that strategy of decide what’s important, decide what’s not. Spend as little as you can on what’s not important so that, like you’re doing, you can free up money to spend on the things that are really adding value to your life. Like you mentioned the National Parks Pass and the state parks parking and all that sort of thing. The gas to get to these, you know, wonderful natural, beautiful places. You’ve decided that’s what you value. Now you’re, I don’t know if lucky’s the right word, but in your worldview it happens to be that those things are not that expensive, right? <Laugh> in the grand scheme of things. So adding a lot of value to your life for just a little bit more spending has really increased your quality of life dramatically.

22:33 Michael: Yeah, I think you nailed it. That’s a great summary of my perspective on this.

Commercial

22:39 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! We’re doing something special for Season 15 of this podcast, and as a loyal listener, I know you’re going to want to be involved. Season 15 will be a chance to share your financial experiences, even if you don’t want to give a full-episode interview or want to remain anonymous. We’re going to publish compilation episodes around certain themes, and each episode will feature at least a half-dozen different contributors. The contributions can be audio clips or written text that I will read aloud for the episode. If you are interested in contributing, check out PFforPhDs.com/season15/. That’s the digits 1 5. On that page, you’ll find a list of the proposed themes and how many volunteers I’ve identified for each episode. Your next step is to email me at emily@PFforPhDs.com to let me know which episode you’d like to contribute to or if you have another idea for the list. Once I’m confident that we have enough contributions for an episode to be created, I’ll give the volunteers specific prompts and directions to create their submissions. I hope you will choose to participate in this unique season! I can’t do it without you, so please get in touch! Now back to the interview.

Spearfishing

24:02 Emily: You brought up something else in our prep for this episode that I thought was really illustrative of your kind of philosophy around spending, which was spearfishing <laugh>. So, please tell me how spearfishing fits into your financial philosophy?

24:18 Michael: Okay, so I talked about how I minimized all of my recurring costs so that I have a lot of ability to save, and that allows me to make these one-time purchases that I put a lot of value on. Things that I only have to buy once. For instance, you know, a wetsuit. I still bought a pretty cheap wetsuit, so don’t think like spearfishing, super expensive, but you know, a spear gun, a wetsuit, gloves, it adds up. It’s maybe a four or $500 investment, which, you know, if you don’t have savings, it’s a lot of money. But because I had this, you know, money saving up as I’m watching it grow, I’m like, Hmm, yeah, I’ll take a little bit off the top and I’m going to buy this equipment. And it gave me hours and hours and hours of joy. I’ve just fallen in love with the ocean and I’m so fortunate that I got to go to school here.

25:04 Michael: I’ve never been an ocean person, but by going to the ocean, I fell in love. One day when this lady, she took her goggles and put it on a kid, her daughter shoved her head underwater and she’s giggling and screaming. And I went over, I was like, can I see what’s underwater? She put the goggles on me and I was hooked, instantly hooked. I wanted everything to do with underwater. So, spearfishing actually allows me to catch quality fish, be sustainable, and save a lot of money on groceries. Like I only buy fruits and veggies at the supermarket. Most of my protein comes from the ocean. And quality protein. Lobster season just opened up. It’s legal to catch lobsters here with your bare hands. So, I’ve had fantastic lobster dinners, lots of sea bass. I make ceviche, I jerky my fish. I mean, I have a really good quality of life from spearfishing. So, it brings me joy and it reduces my costs even further by providing me quality protein that I don’t have to spend money on, or at least the cost is very little.

26:03 Emily: Yeah, what a virtuous like cycle there that you have set up. Like something that you enjoy doing with your free time, brings you some, you know value to your mental health and so forth. And oh, what do you know? It also happens to help you reduce your expenses at the same time in terms of the grocery spending and, you know, the healthful diet and all that lovely stuff. So, I think the, maybe the broader lesson to take from that for the listeners is, maybe you won’t be able to find such a hobby that will actually help you reduce your expenses after, you know, an initial investment. But finding an inexpensive hobby that really brings a lot of value to your life is wonderful during grad school. Obviously, when you don’t have, have tons and tons of money to be having a very, very expensive hobby, it’s great to find things that are just low cost. Like I know for me during graduate school I went to Duke, so I got like really into Duke basketball and like, it’s free essentially to like watch a game with your friends, right? Like, and to have that be like your social activity. So yeah, I just love that point of finding these low cost activities that you just really, really enjoy.

Self-Sufficiency and Knowing What Makes You Happy

27:05 Emily: Is there anything else that you’d like to add regarding your expenses or how you find joy and happiness at this like, lower spending level?

27:16 Michael: There are two things I might want to talk about. So one is unexpected things happen, right? We own things that might break, like our cars or laptops, whatever. I’ve gotten very good out of necessity at fixing those things myself. So, if you think about, you know, the hourly cost to bring your car into the mechanics, it’s outrageous. If you have to do that very often, because you’re driving a junker like me, it actually defeats the purpose. So I’ve gotten phenomenally good at fixing my own car. And I’ll often try to purchase equipment that will allow me to fix the car multiple times. So that thing could break, like for example, I bought a welder from Harbor Freight for a hundred dollars because I had a hole in the exhaust of my old Subaru that rusted all the pieces. So when I got a quote from a welder, it was $150 to fix it.

28:09 Michael: And I thought, well I could buy this welder for a hundred and fix it two or three more times because another hole’s going to show up. So, it’s that kind of mentality of like, I’m going to do it myself. I’m going to fix these things, I’m going to drive the cost as low as possible. And you know, for some people it might just seem like work, but you end up learning so much in the process. Like, I can fix anything now and it’s great. I mean, even like in my next steps in life, it comes in really handy to achieve those dreams because I know how to fix things and I’m good at it. So, and another thing that I would like to drive home is like when you’re trying to find these cheap hobbies, it can be hard because we live in such an environment where we’re being advertised to all the time or we compare ourselves with other people. Try and declutter everything and, and ask yourself what really makes me happy? For me it’s nature. I love nature. And the beauty is nature’s free, right? You can just walk outside, go to a park, and yeah, when you get in tune with the things that really, really make you happy and you pull back away everything that’s clouding that, not only does it make for a much more fulfilling life, but you can save a lot of money too.

29:19 Emily: Do you think that you would have gone on that same kind of journey of understanding yourself and what makes you happy had you not had the financial constraints of the stipend slash wanting to save as much as possible? Like if you had gone a different route and not gone to graduate school, had a different kind of job, do you think you would’ve ended up in the same place?

29:41 Michael: Probably not. I think another beauty of grad school is it gives you a five-year span where you can think about things, right? It’s kind of our job is to, well the Ph in the PhD is philosophical, right? So, we have this time to think. I think, I can’t quite say if things would’ve panned out the same way if for instance, I had declined UCI and gone to Chapel Hill. My life would’ve been totally different. I probably wouldn’t have discovered the ocean. I might not have had a reason to save so aggressively my stipend, who knows, right? But all I can say is that, the way it happened, I wouldn’t change it. I wouldn’t have it any other way. It’s been a fantastic experience.

Sailboat and Seabattical

30:24 Emily: I think the listeners don’t yet fully appreciate how fantastically you are setting yourself up. Because we talked about, you even talked about Roth IRA contributions as like a recurring thing that you have to do, but you’re saving on top of that around $12,000 per year. You have that opportunity to save around $12,000 per year. So, the big reveal, what are you doing with that money <laugh>?

30:50 Michael: Right. So, to everyone that pulled out their calculators and was adding up all my expenses you know, five years of saving a grand a month, that adds up to, you know, over $60,000. I’ve purchased a sailboat here in Southern California. And more importantly, sailboats actually are kind of cheap. I bought the parking space for the sailboat that was twice as much as the boat. So, it’s called a mooring system. It’s lead weights at the bottom of the harbor, and you get to park your boat on it, and it’s kind of like a lease. So, when you buy that, you buy the rights to use that indefinitely, so long as you pay a small tax. So, that’s what I’ve done with my stipend. I’ve saved up all this money. I’ve bought the mooring and the sailboat. And my view for it in the future is, you know, it’s a little place that I can call home.

31:40 Michael: I’ll always have a place to come back to in California, wherever my life might take me. And you can actually live on them for very cheap. Now, some people have all the amenities of a house on a boat and then you completely skip rent. So, in a future where perhaps I get a job somewhere here in southern California, I have a place where I could live virtually for free and that will allow me to save, repeat this process and save even more, earning six figures. And then, you know, together with Sam, we both are like-minded. We can do whatever we want. We’ll be financially free. We can take whatever job we want because we don’t have to have a job. We’ve saved up enough money and we could do this in a relatively short time-scale.

32:22 Emily: You are the first person I’ve interviewed who has purchased a boat during graduate school. And as you said, not even just the boat, but the place to house the boat even more important. Incredible.

32:33 Michael: Thank you.

32:34 Emily: Why are you living in your campus arrangement right now? Is the boat that you have right now not suitable for living in full-time?

32:41 Michael: Yeah, it’s not suitable right now. I need to do some work on the plumbing for the sewage. Now, trying to juggle a PhD and working on a boat that’s floating in the middle of the harbor is kind of difficult. So, I’ve prioritized my education right now. But also, if you look at the house around me, this is a really nice deal. It’s beautiful. I call this place home and it’s lovely. I wouldn’t want to get rid of it. So, the rent, even though I could cut that and live on the boat cheaper, the joy that this apartment brings Samantha and I for the cost is worth it. So, we’re going to stick with this until I can no longer live here when I graduate.

33:21 Emily: And so, I see how now, you know, the skills that you mentioned developing from working on your car, I’m assuming some of those are at least the same learning mindset is translating to being able to fix up the boat and maintain the boat and and so forth. So like you found a new way to apply the skills that you were trying out and practicing on maybe a lower stakes endeavor with the car?

33:42 Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Anyone that knows someone that owns a boat, they are financial nightmares unless you do the work yourself, in which case they’re a time commitment. But it’s kind of what I’m going for here. I want to have the ability to slow down and take life at a slower pace. And that means that I do the work myself on the boat, even if it takes me a little bit longer. And I’m planning as soon as I graduate to spend a whole year on the boat traveling around the world with Sam before we go into our next endeavor. You could call it a “seabbatical”. And in that time, you know, I really want to slow down, kind of refind myself again before I just jump into the next opportunity and, you know, spend the rest of my life in a career. I really want to make sure that I get that time for myself. And slowing down learning how to fix things yourself on a boat, it’s a good way to make that dream happen on a budget.

34:36 Emily: I am so amazed by this, this idea of doing the seabbatical after you finish. Now, you’re a fifth-year, so this is in the relatively near future, right? Can you tell me what the plans are for finishing up your PhD, for doing the seabbatical, for, you know, what you’ll do after that for your next job?

34:53 Michael: Yeah, absolutely. So, I’m quite, I’m right in between opportunities here. I’m trying to finish up my thesis work and get that published and submit my thesis and defend. I’m trying to do that in the next, let’s see, we’re in November. I’m trying to do that in the next three months, and then be graduated sometime in January. And I’ve already written a grant that will fund my postdoc at a National Laboratory. So, that money is already, you know, in my hands at the National Lab. So, I’ve got a guaranteed postdoc after the seabbatical. So the idea is graduate, take the boat down to Baja, explore Baja, California, cross the Pacific either to Hawaii or straight to French Polynesia. And it’s my lifelong dream. I want to see the Pacific atolls. There are these beautiful rings of coral in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. That’s my dream. If I see that in this upcoming seabbatical you know, I’ve made it, you know. Anything else can come and I’ll happily go and join a national lab and do work there and produce science.

35:57 Emily: I love the strategy of securing the funding before, like knowing really what that next step is going to be. Because it’s a little bit of a risk, and especially I think with academia type stuff. People say, oh, you know, you take a break, you get out, you can never come back and so forth. But I really like this that you have the money, which is kind of the most important part. Having that established so that you know, you have a place to land when you’re done with this lovely break. And I’m so excited for that. And I definitely want you and or Sam, both of you to come back on the podcast after you’ve taken this year break and tell me, you know, all the shifted, you know, perspectives that you have. Maybe your life won’t even be going in the same direction that you thought at that point. That would be wonderful.

National Laboratory Postdoc Funding

36:37 Emily: But I want a little bit more detail now, if you don’t mind. I understand you’re already working with this National Lab that you had then, you know, applied for the grant for and so forth where you’ll do your postdoc. So, can you talk about that like relationship between, you know, yourself and your current advisor, your current program, and that National Lab?

36:55 Michael: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, when you join grad school, they tell you that you’re guaranteed a stipend, right? $30,000 in my case. What they don’t tell you is what you have to do to earn that $30,000. Most people find out kind of the rather harsh way that they need to be a teaching assistant their entire PhD. Or some people write NSF grants and they get a fellowship which funds them. My case was neither. My case was, you know, a fellowship that came from Los Alamos National Laboratory. They were looking for a person that had my skillset. And my advisor at Los Alamos, my current advisor now at Los Alamos, reached out to my advisor at UCI looking for this type of individual that I kind of fit the bill. And that was that they already had built up a relationship in the past.

37:38 Michael: And, you know, that’s kind of how the world works. You call up, do you know anyone that’s good at this? And yeah, I do, here. So, that’s how I got selected for this. But that didn’t quite solve my financial problems once that connection was made. Just because I was the person for the project didn’t mean the money was there yet. So, we went through multiple rounds of applying for grants to fund me in this new endeavor, this partnership collaboration between UCI and Los Alamos. And it took us three years to actually get the funding. And then finally it came through internally from Los Alamos. My advisor at Los Alamos kind of pulled through and got that funding. And it was meant to be more of like a summer internship funding. But the way that we’ve structured it is we’ve kind of spread that money out over the whole year.

38:22 Michael: And then we, it’s not enough to fund me for the whole year. So then we have to supplement it with additional funding that my advisor from Los Alamos is able to get internally there at Los Alamos. And it’s kind of the first of its kind, but there are going to be many more of these types of fellowships. So kind of like a plug to anyone that’s in the southern UC school systems. It might not be known, but the UC system is actually a third owner or administrator of the National Laboratory. So, they’re trying to build a pipeline of students from the southern UC, you know, UCLA, UC San Diego, UC Riverside, UC Irvine to go to Los Alamos because all of the Northern UC system schools already have that pathway to the National Labs in Berkeley. So Lawrence Livermore, Lawrence Berkeley, Sandia, they already have that pathway. So, their students kind of go there. And so they’re looking to build that. So, there are actually going to be more opportunities like the one I have for students in the Southern UC school system.

39:20 Emily: Yeah. And so the way that I understand this is structured is you are an employee of the National Lab, but since you’re still a student, your education expenses are still outstanding. And your department, your program has agreed to pay those on your behalf, even though you’re not, you know, a teaching assistant or you don’t have a fellowship that’s being administered by the university, they’re still covering that part of things.

39:43 Michael: Yeah, that’s correct. It’s kind of messy, right? Because once you get external funding, the school doesn’t get its cut and then it requires you to pay for tuition. But in the way that this is, because there is this unique kind of like part-ownership of the UC systems with the National Labs, they’re trying to make this work, right? They’re trying to get students from the UC systems into the National Labs. And so, you know, some kind of conversation had to occur between Los Alamos National Lab and my department where my department agreed to pick up my tuition costs.

Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE)

40:19 Emily: I’m so glad we got that into the interview because it’s a structure that I had not heard before. So, it’s really just interesting and good to hear that there are creative solutions to how graduate students can be funded in various ways. And thanks for letting the other, you know, UC students know about this upcoming pipeline. Surprise second-to-last question, Michael. There are some ways that you’ve been answering questions in this interview that indicate to me that you might be part of the financial independence movement. Is that the case?

40:51 Michael: I mean that’s the dream. Yeah. FIRE, right? Financial independence, retire early. And I think it’s funny because a lot of people have a negative connotation with the word retire, but it’s focused more on the financial independence, right? If you have saved enough money, built enough wealth, created passive income streams to the point where you don’t have to take a job, it means you can work on whatever you dream, whatever you wish. And because we’re humans, we’re always evolving. What we picked to do in school might not be the thing we want to do for the rest of our lives. So, having that ability to say no to that job, say no to maybe perhaps corporate America or something and say yes to entrepreneurship or whatever floats your boat, right? That’s the beauty. So that’s what Samantha and I are both trying to achieve together is that financial independence so that we can dedicate our lives to whatever we want, whatever we think has value, not necessarily the big corporate, you know, pharma company or this or that, whatever pays the bills.

41:46 Emily: Do you see this pursuit of financial independence as enabling you to continue to do science in the way that you want to? Or are you thinking of it as a way of stepping away from that vocation entirely when it might, you know, please you to do so?

42:01 Michael: Hmm. Both <laugh>. Yeah. To do science, it’s a very costly endeavor, and it’s really funny the way that we structure, you know, professorships. You get paid to teach, you don’t really get paid to do the science. You need to get that grant money kind of independently from your position as a professor. So it’s kind of like, they hire you for one thing but expect you to do the other. If you have the financial independence, you can do whatever you want. You can do research, maybe you go and pursue opportunities in science that you wouldn’t have thought of otherwise. Like perhaps joining an antarctic exploration boat or something like that, right? It means you have the flexibility to pursue what you want. That might be continuing science, that might be doing something entrepreneurial, but it’s nice to have the flexibility and the financial security, or at least striving towards the financial security, to do whatever I might please in the future.

42:59 Emily: I’m so glad we got to this point of understanding this even bigger picture. Because we’ve been talking about, you know, the expenses during grad school, the savings, saving up for the seabbatical and everything, which is not full early retirement, but it’s certainly a mini-retirement as it’s called within the FIRE community. I’m glad to see that this is a vision that you see playing out over your entire lifetime. Not something you’re doing, you know, temporarily just during grad school, just for whatever reasons. You’re going to be sort of fluidly moving in and out of different employment opportunities and maybe some other sabbaticals or mini-retirements and maybe other, you know, unusual work arrangements and so forth because you’ve already started to build up this financial capital. Even though you’re not fully FI at this point, you have enough financial wherewithal to have a lot of control over how you spend your time and everything.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

43:51 Emily: And so, I’m just so pleased that we can see how, you know, that started with the seed of an idea at the beginning of graduate school and how it’s going to be blossoming over the coming years and over the coming decades. So, so glad that we got to this point in this interview that we could understand that. The question that I ask all of my guests at the end of interviews is, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? That could be something that we’ve touched upon already or it could be something completely new.

44:18 Michael: Hmm, that’s good. I’m going to try and answer this as best I can. Because as we’ve established, I’m kind of an exception to this, right? So my advice might be a little bit extreme for others, but I would advise to those whoever may resonate with my story, minimize your recurring costs, advocate for yourself, whether that’s, like you pointed out, the necessity for a certain accommodation at the university. You can also advocate for a higher stipend for yourself at the university. Most people don’t know that. So, minimize recurring costs. Advocate for yourself. Those are my two big ones.

45:00 Emily: I love that. That’s sort of how I see my, you know, even business going forward of like advocacy and also doing really well with what you have, such as by minimizing those not important to you, recurring expenses. And Michael, where can people find you if they want to reach out?

45:17 Michael: Yeah, so if you want to follow me, my sailing adventures are all published on YouTube under my channel Sailing Ambrosia. So if you want to, you know, unplug and unwind, you can follow me there on YouTube.

45:30 Emily: Michael, this has been such a fascinating interview. I’m so glad that Sam recommended you. And thank you so much for taking the time to give it!

45:37 Michael: It’s been my pleasure. I really hope that someone out there resonates with this story and perhaps I’ve enlightened someone to follow in my footsteps.

Outtro

45:49 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD Student-Nurse Is Confident in Her Self-Worth

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In this episode, Emily interviews Brenda Olmos, a nurse practitioner and rising third-year PhD student in nursing. A first-generation college student who grew up without financial stability, Brenda was debt-averse throughout college and her master’s degree and started building wealth in her 20s through investing and real estate, eventually aligning with the FIRE movement. When she decided to pursue a PhD in her late 20s, she held out for an online program with an excellent culture and funding package. Thanks to her lucrative outside work, Brenda has continued to invest consistently during her PhD, although more slowly than she did pre-PhD. Brenda’s strong financial position and career optionality have set her up well for a fulfilling post-PhD career.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

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Teaser

00:00 Brenda: It’s so cool to like see yourself grow in ways that you never thought you could. And financially like, okay, maybe I’m taking like a 50 or $60,000 per year cut. But in the course of my life, like is three years really going to matter that much, you know? And how much more will my life be enriched by having this degree? Like what doors will it open for me? Whether they’re monetary or not is not really the point for me anymore. And that’s something that I was able to achieve in my twenties.

Introduction

00:37 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 2, and today my guest is Brenda Olmos, a nurse practitioner and rising third-year PhD student in nursing. A first-generation college student who grew up without financial stability, Brenda was debt-averse throughout college and her master’s degree and started building wealth in her 20s through investing and real estate, eventually aligning with the FIRE movement. When she decided to pursue a PhD in her late 20s, she held out for an online program with an excellent culture and funding package. Thanks to her lucrative outside work, Brenda has continued to invest consistently during her PhD, although more slowly than she did pre-PhD. Brenda’s strong financial position and career optionality have set her up well for a fulfilling post-PhD career.

01:56 Emily: Would you please help me out with something? I want to record six podcast interviews this fall to be published over approximately the next six months. Will you consider being a guest? As a listener, I’m sure you have something to say about money as a PhD or PhD-to-be! Simply fill out the Google Form at PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ to get the ball rolling. Alternatively, if you have someone in mind who you’d like to hear me interview, please connect me with that person over email or Twitter! I really appreciate it! Let’s keep the podcast going strong! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Brenda Olmos.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:52 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today someone I know from Fintwit, Brenda Olmos. She is a rising third-year PhD student at the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center. She’s actually doing a PhD in nursing, so a very different kind of PhD student than we’ve had on here before. Not only that, her program is online, so she lives in Austin, Texas. So, Brenda, I’m so happy to have you on the podcast and get to have a deep-dive conversation with you. Will you please tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself?

03:20 Brenda: Sure! Hello everyone. My name’s Brenda Olmos. And, like Emily said, I live in Austin, Texas, and I’ve grown up in this area of central Texas and really enjoy living here. So, when I was searching for PhD programs, I was definitely searching for distance programs. And that’s the case about me being in an online PhD program. I grew up, like I said, here in central Texas, and I went to UT Austin for my undergraduate in nursing degree. Six years later, I graduated with my Master’s in Nursing as a family nurse practitioner. So, I had about six years of experience as a registered nurse at the bedside, which means I basically worked in inpatient hospital settings, taking care of people who were acutely ill. And then I chose to leave that setting when I became a nurse practitioner and I worked in an outpatient primary care setting for older people.

04:11 Brenda: So, I’m a geriatric nurse. And I found a scholarship in 2019 for geriatric nursing research. And I was kind of at a point in my life where I was satisfied with my career, and I found it rewarding. I found my work very gratifying, but I felt that my potential wasn’t really maximized in that role, that I made a difference one-on-one with patients, but that I wanted to make a difference at a larger scale. And in nursing, there are two paths for a doctorate degree. There’s a Doctorate in Nursing Practice, which is a DNP, and a lot of nurses do that because they want to make immediate change, like in administration or policy. And then there’s the PhD, which is the Doctor of Philosophy. And that’s more of a research-based doctorate, like most other PhDs in which you focus on generating new knowledge and you learn the research process.

05:07 Brenda: And I actually had really great mentors, which caused me to lean towards the PhD. And I chose the PhD in nursing because I felt that I wanted to have the doctorate that was universally recognized as a terminal degree and as a doctorate, whereas a DNP is very specific to nursing. I wanted to have something that, you know, the three letters that mean something to everybody <laugh> in the world, right? So, that’s kind of been my trajectory. I worked as a nurse practitioner for three years, full-time from 2017 to 2020. And then in 2020, I had been accepted to the PhD program. I was still kind of on the fence about it because I was making six figures as a nurse practitioner. And even though I didn’t know at the time that I had won this scholarship, I was like, I don’t know, this is a big leap to take. And then the pandemic hit and that took away so much of the joy of my work. And so much of the compensation that I realized I’m ready to go do something different. So, I’ve been in my PhD program since August of 2020. And like you said, I’m going into my third year now.

06:13 Emily: Wow. I love when I get someone on the podcast who has really, really thought deeply about their career and the trajectory of it and chosen, after all of that, to go into a PhD program. I don’t want be, you know, too critical of people who went like directly from undergrad down that path. I went almost directly from undergrad, but I just think it takes on a different tone. You have more focus in your research usually with all that like background work experience, and especially for you having a very, you know, very solid, super lucrative like career leading into that and you just really thought about, well, what do I want in my life? How do I want to be spending my time? That’s actually a lot of what we’ll be talking about today.

06:51 Emily: And I just want to kind of frame this for the listener a little bit that you know, Brenda’s had, as we just said of really different career trajectory than probably most people who are listening, probably the vast majority of people who are listening. And so once we get to start, you know, talking about Brenda’s finances, you’re going to see a pretty rosy picture. And it is of course, largely due to having that career in her twenties. But I don’t want you to like dismiss this episode as like, you’re never going to learn anything from it because you’re not in the same kind of position that Brenda was, because I still think there’s going to be something here, some strategy, some mindset, especially, that you can learn from. So, keep with us even though it may be a little bit of a different kind of story.

07:29 Brenda: And I do want to add to that that not every nurse is in my position, right? Like I had a really great scholarship for undergrad. Probably about 75% of my undergrad degree was paid for through scholarships and grants. I paid for my master’s degree, partially through hospital tuition reimbursement, and partially by working full-time. But I had classmates who took out a hundred thousand dollars for two years of their master’s program, and they’re paying that off now, right? So, I just want to be transparent about the fact that like, don’t go up to every nurse and be like, oh my God, you have no debt and you make a ton of money. Like, no, I was very strategic about the way that I got my education and I was always debt-averse. And so, I think that’s also important to point out.

Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE)

08:14 Emily: Yeah. Because I next want to kind of talk about you discovering the FIRE movement, which you did prior to starting the PhD program, but you had already, as you just said, taken some, you know, FIRE-like steps leading up to that, by being debt-averse, by working a lot while you’re in school, by choosing an employer who’s going to give you tuition reimbursement and so forth. So like, you were already setting yourself up well financially, even if you hadn’t, you know, discovered that particular movement. But let’s go to that like moment when you discovered the FIRE movement and what appealed to you about it? Like, why did you decide to start going that route?

08:45 Brenda: Yeah, I think a lot of it was rooted in, like for many of us, the way that we grew up around money, right? Like the beliefs that were planted in our minds as young kids. And for me, and I’ve talked about this in BiggerPockets and in some other podcasts, is that I had so much financial instability growing up and I knew so much about my parents’ finances and I knew the lows and I knew the highs. And I had kind of, maybe not consciously, but unconsciously decided that I was going to be stable, that my adult life was not going to be a roller coaster of emotions, secondary to my financial situation. And so, I think that’s why FIRE appealed to me because it was like, oh, I don’t just have to be stable. Like, I can be free. <Laugh>, you know, it’s like, there’s one extreme where you’re tied to the ball and chain, there’s the middle ground where you’re stable and you’re working, you’re saving, maybe you’re investing. And then there’s financially independent where no matter what you do, whether you work or you don’t work, you’re okay, right? So, I found out about it through some podcasts, StackingBenjamins, Afford Anything, Earn and Invest. And I just started listening and I was like, wow, there’s a lot I can do with some money I have saved up. Or like, maybe I should buy a property, you know? And that’s kind of how it all took off.

10:13 Emily: I think we’re going to get here, like later in the interview, but this like really interesting overlap in your story between pursuing FIRE and pursuing the PhD, and like the time freedom that FIRE can give you to then apply it to your academic interest. Even if those interests don’t pay as well as other career paths, perhaps, that were available to you. So, I really hope, yeah, we pull that out later in the interview. So, give me a couple, like, you know, mechanical things that you did in those early years of FIRE. You mentioned, oh, maybe I should consider buying a property. Like, what were some things that you did that were deviations from the path that you were on before, once you learned about FIRE?

10:49 Brenda: Right. So, I started investing in a brokerage account, which I had never done before. Like the thought of investing in the stock market was really foreign to me. I knew that my parents had 401(k)s, but I didn’t know that that was investing in the stock market. And so, I started doing research on that. And I talk about this on the podcast I have with my friend, Minority Millennial Money, about how my first experience into investing was like going to Wells Fargo and having an advisor there telling me that I needed at least $25,000 to like open a portfolio <laugh> and, you know, I look back on that and I did it. But I look back on that and I’m like, oh, I was so naive, you know? And now I know so much more and eventually, I transferred it out of Wells Fargo, but so the first thing was investing, and the second thing was buying a home.

House Hacking

11:40 Brenda: First, it was a small condo in 2017. Prior to that, I had kept my living expenses low because I just lived with a friend who owned a home and I rented a room from her for $600 a month, right? So, for Austin, even seven years ago, that was really cheap. So, and I didn’t, I don’t mind living with people, but it was nice to have my own place when I bought a condo in 2017. And then in 2019, I bought a single-family home and I rented out the condo. And so, now I have both.

12:11 Emily: So, let’s see, in 2019 you bought the single-family home, in 2020, you started the PhD program. So, are you still living in that single-family home? Or did you move again?

12:19 Brenda: Yeah, and I house hack it. So, I mean, house hacking is really just having roommates, right? So, basically, I started having travel nurses stay with me so that I didn’t have a permanent person. I just kind of had a nurse house. And so, I really enjoyed that. And there was a little bit of a lull there when COVID hit because many of their contracts got canceled. And so, I was at a critical point where I was like, I’m quitting my job. I have this house to take care of and the income may not be there, but it ended up working out. And hosting travel nurses is really awesome.

12:59 Emily: Yeah. This strategy of house hacking is one that I have given some air time to in the past and I’m really excited about for PhD students, because for that stage of life, it’s already really normalized to live with roommates. And so, if you have the financial wherewithal to be able to purchase, be the owner and be the landlord, it can like really radically transform your finances. So, so glad to hear that you were taking advantage of that strategy even before starting the PhD.

Choosing a Supportive PhD Program

13:22 Emily: So, we kind of already talked about like, why you wanted to start the PhD, you know, why you thought it was the best move for your career. Did you want to add any more details about, I don’t know, that particular program or anything else about your, you know, deciding to go down that career?

13:35 Brenda: Yeah. And, you know, we have met over Financial Twitter and there’s also Academic Twitter. And on Academic Twitter, I see so many horror stories of like really difficult programs, really toxic environments. And I was like, A) I don’t have to do this. So, I am not going to go to a program like that. And B) What if I found a really great program, you know? And so, I just created a spreadsheet with all the schools I was looking at. And this particular program, the director called me, she wanted to talk, she was warm, she was encouraging. And she was genuinely interested in me, you know? And I was like, wow, that’s really special. Whereas other schools like just sent me computer-generated emails, you know? And I was like, okay. So, like my email just went into like a black hole. So, that was important to me, especially because I know that people don’t know this, you know, people outside of nursing don’t know this, but nursing academia has a really negative reputation for being very toxic, very discouraging, not supportive, hazing, in a sense.

14:44 Brenda: And it’s especially prominent at the graduate, you know, and doctoral level. So, I was like, I don’t need that in my life. So, I’m going to look for a program where I feel like it would be a good experience. And I found that, and I was like, okay, I could do this here. So, that was important to me. And also, it was important to me that, if I was going to take this big financial hit, that it was going to be for something worth it. And like you said, for me, the PhD is really something I’m doing for personal enrichment, right? There’s no guarantee that I’m going to make more money when I’m done. You know, I made almost $200,000 in 2019 just working a little bit extra. If I get a job that makes me that much post-PhD, I’ll be really excited. But for me, it was also really important to see people that look like me because I’m a Latina nurse practitioner. And I just could count on one hand how many people who were nurses who had PhDs, who were Hispanic, that I knew, you know? And so, in a field that’s predominantly or 95% white women, I thought it was important to increase the representation.

16:00 Emily: Yeah. I love all those overlapping motivations. And I love, it sounds like you were patient, right? Like you were willing to be really selective about the program that you went to. And I love that little note about like, oh, this person actually called me, like, I talked to this person over the phone instead of just email correspondence and just form letter stuff. And I love that like, you looked at this field, like you said, it has this bad reputation, and you said to yourself, I don’t need to do this. And I’m only going to do it if I can find the program that is going to be really supportive of me. It’s the right fit for me. And even if you know, Academic Twitter and everything else is telling you, no, no, everything’s terrible. It never, it doesn’t exist anywhere. You were like, no, I’m going to hold out and find that perfect program for me. And you did. So like, I just say that to point out that, like, that’s a limiting belief that you could have had. Like, you could have told yourself, oh, I’m never going to find a home. It doesn’t matter. People like me never, you know, get into this level of nursing or succeed or whatever, whatever. And you chose to not have that limiting belief, right? So, I want other people to hear that message as well.

17:02 Brenda: Yeah. And I’ve spoken with my classmates about this, and I think I’m just fortunate in the sense that I have a very positive disposition <laugh> and so I didn’t, it never occurred to me that I wouldn’t find one. I just thought, I just need to find one <laugh>.

Net Worth in Grad School

17:17 Emily: Okay. So, let’s hear more details about your life, like coming into the program. We’ve heard a couple of things. You already owned two properties. You had been making like over six figures. In fact, your income was nearly $200K in that year immediately prior to starting graduate school. Would you like to share anything about like your net worth or just any other aspects of your financial picture at the time that you started graduate school?

17:38 Brenda: Yeah. So, at the time I started graduate school, that was 2020. So, my net worth now is about $550,000. And at that time it was probably, I think I remember tweeting about it and I think it was like $330K at that time. And that big leap has really just been real estate prices just skyrocketing. And so, I do count like potential, you know, appreciation in my net worth. And then I probably have, right now, I have about $160K or $170K invested. And at that time I probably had like $120K. And so, I’ve been contributing, let’s see, with Roth contribution maximum, which is 6,000, plus about a thousand dollars a month. So, that’s like $18,000 a year in the last two years. So yeah, that makes sense. $120K plus another $35K to $40K. So, I’m at $160K. And I anticipate, you know, this is just kind of a lull in my investing trajectory. And once I go back to full-time work and I’m earning a full-time income again of hopefully at least a hundred thousand, if not more, because I’ll be able to add my clinical practice contract work to it, then I’ll be able to go back to investing closer to $25,000 a year.

19:00 Emily: I mean, investing $18,000 a year while you’re in a PhD program is well, definitely the highest number that I’ve heard <laugh> of anybody on the podcast. So, you’re not exactly a slouch in this area. But so, prior to the PhD, though, it sounds like you were using a taxable brokerage account and maybe some employer-provided stuff 401(k) or 403(b).

19:18 Brenda: Yes, a 401(k).

19:18 Emily: Yeah. Okay. And so, that benefit went away, I assume. Like at the moment you’re only doing your Roth IRA and then the taxable brokerage account.

19:27 Brenda: Yeah. And actually, so before the episode, we talked about my stipend. So, my stipend is, just to protect my time, I don’t owe any kind of labor for that stipend, but I am limited to working 20 hours per week. The great thing about that stipulation is that I’m not limited to how much money I can make. I’m just limited to hours I can work. So, I have been a graduate research assistant at the university since spring of 2021 with one of my professors. And we’ve actually published two papers together, which is awesome. But one of the benefits of that is that as a GRA, you become staff of the university and you get access to their 403(b) and 457. So, I have been contributing at least half of my GRA income, which pays $25 an hour. And what’s funny about this is that the original pay for that position was $15 an hour at the university.

GRA Salary Negotiation

20:27 Brenda: And I told my professor, I was like, I’m sorry, like, I am passionate about your work, but like, I just cannot do it for $15 an hour. Like I have too many things going on and I have too many other much more lucrative offers. And so she went to financial, I don’t know, the financial services building and they agreed to bump it up to $25 for everyone in the nursing program, because we’re all registered nurses, at least, you know, some of us are nurse practitioners. So, it was like almost insulting <laugh>, you know? I mean, I don’t want to be a snob about it, but it’s like, who would take $15 when I can go work the same hour for $65 or $75? So anyway, so yeah, I’ve been doing the Roth, the taxable brokerage, which really comes third on my list. Like if I’m short on money one month, that’s the last one I fund. And then I contribute 50% of that $25 per hour income, which is 10 hours a week, a thousand dollars a month. So, half of that goes to the 457. And I chose the 457 on purpose because you can access it anytime without penalty.

21:38 Emily: Love all those details. Actually, it’s interesting because most people who I speak with who are like on the level of 10-hour per week employees are not offered those benefits. So like, I would say that’s a great, like, exception that your university or health sciences center offers that. So, that’s awesome that you’re doing that. And I love that you, you know, shared that negotiation story and that it not only benefited you, but benefited everybody. Like this is a message I’m trying to get across with like, you can negotiate for yourself as an individual. Yes. But it can also help other people when you do that, because it sends a message.

22:12 Brenda: I wouldn’t have expected them to just give it to me. I mean, it would’ve been fine, but then it’s like, I think it was a fairness issue, right? Because they were like, oh, well, all these other students are also doing it. No, it was great. And I think it was definitely something that the graduate college had to take into consideration because you’re looking at, you know, graduate students, but we’re also working professionals, right? So, that is kind of a unique situation that nurses in graduate school are in.

22:43 Emily: Absolutely.

Commercial

22:47 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2022 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15, 2022. Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax, and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives.

24:06 Emily: If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. Now back to our interview.

Sources of Income in Grad School

24:50 Emily: So, let’s like back up a tiny bit and talk about sort of all of your income sources during graduate school. Because you know, you’ve mentioned a couple times you have this really fantastic scholarship, so let’s start there. Like, what does the scholarship give you?

25:02 Brenda: Right. So, the scholarship is specific to my university, and it’s a special foundation that was money given through a philanthropic organization. And they basically allotted $150,000 scholarships separated into three years, $50,000 per year. That comes out to $30,000 per year or $2,500 per month as a stipend, and $3,000 for summer tuition, $6,000 for spring and fall tuition, and $4,000 leftover are for travel to conferences and that kind of thing. And I will say that I have used some of your courses and the taxes because that $2,500 counts as 1099 income for me. So, I do have to pay taxes on that. And most of my contract work is not on a W-2. So, I do have to pay taxes on that as well.

26:01 Emily: Okay. So, it sounds like the scholarship is fully paying your tuition and fees, giving you a stipend of $2,500 a month, and you have this additional professional development fund per year. Wow. Okay. That sounds great, but we’re not done yet. The way that we talked about this earlier, and I think the best way to phrase it for the listener is that that stipend of $2,500 per month essentially protects 20 hours per week of your time for you to devote to your dissertation research, or your classes, whatever it is you have to be doing for your PhD. And so, with the next 20 hours of your work week, you can be doing other paid work in that time. So, you can earn above your stipend. It’s just, you’re limited in the number of hours you can spend working. And so for you, you’ve already mentioned like the assistantship that you have at 10 hours per week. Do you have any other work that you do in the other remaining 10 hours per week?

Clinic Contract Work

26:52 Brenda: Yeah, so my former employer kept me on as a contractor. So now, I technically work for the agency that staffs their clinics, but they have urgent care clinics every weekend from nine to four. So, I’ll pick up weekend shifts. And occasionally, because my former boss knows me and knows that I know like the day-to-day clinic work, then he’ll ask me if I can work some days during the week. And so, I’ll do that. And that’s at $75 an hour. And then I have a couple of other jobs where I fill in for other nurse practitioners, like when they’re on vacation or they’re out sick or something. And the great thing about some of those is that they’re kind of slow clinics. And so, I can just take my schoolwork and do it there <laugh>.

27:43 Emily: Yeah. Sounds like a sweet deal. So, with all these active income sources together, the stipend plus the other work that you’re permitted to do, what does that add up to in terms of like your yearly income on average?

27:56 Brenda: So, last year my taxes were a little bit complicated, so I have the 1099 income, and then I have the real estate income. And I don’t take any of that as income from the real estate. So, the condo has its own account, and it has a little emergency fund for itself. And anything that it makes, it stays in there for emergencies, and same with the house. It has its own account. I pay rent into the homes account for myself, and then my tenants pay for pay into that account as well. But I rarely take any money from those accounts. So, I don’t count that. So, out of $112,000 last year, about $30K of that was from the rentals. And so, I really made about $70K, probably. So, $30K of that was from the stipend and then I made another $40K in part-time work.

28:53 Emily: Okay. So interesting. So, you have income sort of on your tax return, you have income that you don’t actually consider, like you’re not actually taking it into your personal accounts. You’re just leaving that as emergency funds and so forth for the real estate stuff. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, earning $40K on top of the $30K, again, really great for a PhD student. So good for you. The message that I want the listener to be hearing from this part of the interview is Brenda’s time is valued in a certain way because of her existing credentials and work experience and so forth. But earning something like $75 an hour is not out of the question for a PhD student in other disciplines. Depending, of course, on your work experience and what your field is and how, you know, in-demand it is, et cetera.

Valuing and Monetizing Your Skills

29:38 Emily: So, like you made the comment earlier. It’s a good thing they’re only limiting me on time and not the amount of money that I can make, because, you know, in some of your income sources, you can command quite a high hourly rate. I would love for other graduate students and postdocs to hear that message and think about, wow, if I’m making $75 an hour, a hundred dollars an hour, I only need to work two hours a week to make a really huge difference in my budget. You know, like when you can get to those high hourly rates, you don’t have to spend a ton of your time, you know, to get your finances in the shape that you want them to be in.

30:10 Brenda: For sure. And I think that, you know, like you said, I have a very particular skill, but there are skills that I don’t have that I would gladly pay someone $65 an hour to do. Like currently I’m dealing with some big data and I’m like, oh my gosh, I’m like going on websites of like, you know, people you can pay on an hourly basis to like walk you through something. And I’m sure that there are people in PhD programs who know this like the back of their hand, and they’re just not making themselves available for someone like me. Because I can earn that money, you know, relatively easily, and I’m happy to pay someone for their expertise as well. So, that’s very true. And I think that maybe sometimes, you know, I am very aware of my skill because I have a license and a certification for it, but you may have skills that other people need that don’t necessarily have, you know, very formal credentials, but that people would be happy to pay for.

31:12 Emily: And I think it’s so easy to get caught in this trap of undervaluing yourself inside academia. Like what you were talking about earlier with like the $15 versus $25 per hour negotiation that you did. It’s so common inside academia to undervalue ourselves. We see everybody else doing it, then we do it as well. But if you can take a little bit of a pivot and maybe, you know, market your skills to somebody outside of academia where these are not, you know, a dime a dozen kind of skills that everybody has, then you can, you know, potentially get those higher hourly rates. So, definitely food for thought, I hope, for some people.

Negotiating In-State Tuition

31:42 Emily: So, I think that you are probably the first interview we’ve had on the podcast who is doing like a hundred percent remote program. Not just like remote for COVID or whatever has been going on temporarily. So, you live not in the same state as where your university is. So, how does that work out with your scholarship and with the tuition and everything?

32:02 Brenda: Yeah, so that’s true. I specifically was looking for long-distance programs because I like where I live. I live close to my family, and I knew that a PhD was an experience that I would need support for <laugh>. And so, I didn’t want to leave my support system behind to do that. And so, whenever I got accepted to the University of Oklahoma and I was still living in Texas, and I had no plan to leave Texas, there was the issue of out-of-state tuition costs. And so, I got accepted in about March 2020. I found out I got the scholarship in April of 2020, and I had kind of set that as the bar, like if I get accepted and I get the scholarship, I’ll go, right? But then I thought, well, out-of-state tuition is almost double, right? It’s the difference between $10,000 and $6,000 a semester.

32:58 Brenda: And I just told the director, like I really want to go to this program, and I’m really grateful for the scholarship, but I realized financially that the out-of-state tuition is going to eat up about 50% of my stipend per semester. So, is there any way I could get in-state tuition? And she actually took it up to the graduate college and they agreed to give me a waiver for three years. So, I pay in-state tuition, and actually the great part about being a graduate research assistant is that, when you take on that position, it’s actually the grant that is funding you, that pays the waiver. And so, the waiver that I had originally been promised can be given to someone else while I’m a GRA.

33:44 Emily: Wow. Okay. Another great example of negotiation, and also another kind of general negotiation point that I like to make to prospective graduate students is like, you don’t necessarily know all the different levers that these people behind the scenes can pull to like enhance your package. So, you made the suggestion, maybe I could pay the in-state tuition rate instead of the higher rate, and they made that happen. And if that hadn’t exactly been possible, maybe they could have found a different way to augment your package to make up that, you know, $4,000 per year difference. So, yeah, so encouraging for prospective graduate students.

34:15 Brenda: I do want to mention that one of the points I brought up was that, and maybe this is just using a rivalry to my advantage, but you know, UT Austin and the University of Oklahoma are rivals in football. And UT Austin has a policy that, if you’re an out-of-state student and you come in to Texas with a scholarship from Texas, like if you won a scholarship in Texas, then the University waives your out-of-state tuition. And so, I presented that to the director and I said, you know, UT Austin does this, do you guys do anything like this? And I think that was what helped, you know, is that I had kind of done my research and I was like, you know, this is something another university is doing. Can you guys do it? And they said yes.

34:58 Emily: That’s a great example as well of like sharing of best practices. Hey, these other people have found this solution over here. Sometimes it helps to open their mind. Oh, well, maybe we could find this similar solution. Absolutely.

Money Mindset

35:09 Emily: So, you mentioned, you know, you’ve taken a pretty substantial income cut to pursue the PhD. Are there any other ways that taking this step in your career has impacted your path towards financial independence?

35:23 Brenda: Yeah, like I said, it’s probably a little bit of a setback numbers-wise and on the spreadsheet, but I feel that it’s so valuable to me personally and professionally and in my development as a person, as a researcher, as a scientist, as a nurse. You know, I’m just being challenged to think in ways that I never did before. And my practice in primary care became kind of monotonous and, you know, unfortunately, there wasn’t very much motivating me forward. And I feel totally different now. You know, even though sometimes I’m overwhelmed to learn new things, it’s so cool to like see yourself grow in ways that you never thought you could. And financially like, okay, maybe I’m taking like a $50 or $60,000 per year cut. But in the course of my life, like is three years really going to <laugh> matter that much, you know? And how much more will my life be enriched by having this degree? Like what doors will it open for me, whether they’re monetary or not is not really the point for me anymore. And that’s something that I was able to achieve in my twenties, right? Like that I set myself up to where, whether I make $50,000 or $150,000, what matters most to me now is that I’m happy, that I’m fulfilled, that I’m challenged, that I enjoy the people I work with, that I genuinely feel that I’m making a difference.

36:54 Emily: And it’s just so like gratifying to hear that, you know, the work you did on your finances in your twenties, both before and after discovering the FIRE movement, set you up to have this excellent financial experience during the PhD. Now, part of that is your field, and this is normal and so forth, this fantastic scholarship, you got all of that. But part of that is just, you know, when I was listening to some of your other podcast interviews, I was thinking that you just sound so like, calm about your finances. Like you just sound so like relaxed about them, which is a very different energy than what I give off sometimes, and like other people who I listen to, or interview on the podcast. But that is on the back of all the work that you did in your twenties to lead up to this point.

37:37 Emily: And so, you get to be relaxed because you have this net worth, you have your properties, you have your house hack, and you have this fantastic income. And this is just something that I so wish that more PhD students could experience. Even a fraction of the experience that you’re having, right? Like maybe it’s having the reasonable income for a person in their twenties or thirties. Or maybe it’s, you know, having worked for a few years, building up a bit of a nest egg before taking that income cut the way you have. I just, I love hearing just your whole like, sort of disposition towards this.

38:09 Brenda: Yeah. And I think a lot of it is reorienting your mind to not have a scarcity mindset, right? To kind of have an abundance mindset, like I’m going to thrive and I’m going to find a great job after this. And like I said, I’m just gifted with a naturally positive disposition, but like, I don’t have any worries about what will happen after, because everything’s worked out so far. <Laugh> maybe that’s just because I’ve been so strategic, right? Maybe in some ways I could have relaxed a little bit, but I am very forward-looking, right? I’m always kind of thinking about the next thing. And I have to remind myself to live in the moment, too, but yeah. I think that most PhD students, like you said, undervalue themselves. And I think about my classmates alone. You know, I’m like, they’re so talented, they’re so smart. Some of them are doing this with kids, with a family, taking care of their parents, with a job. And I’m just like, those are skills, right? Like those are highly marketable skills. Like just getting through the program with life the way it is is a crazy good skill. So, I really appreciate that you encourage people to, you know, maybe do some inward thinking about how can I monetize these things that just come naturally to me now in this stage of my life?

What is Coast FI?

39:40 Emily: You said a couple of minutes ago that, well, it doesn’t really matter if I make $50,000 or $150,000 a year. It’s going to be okay. It’s going to work out. That reminded me of the term Coast FI, a particular version of FIRE. Do you think about Coast FI? Would you describe yourself as Coast FI? Let’s define that for the listener.

39:59 Brenda: Yeah. I think traditionally, Coast FI means that your retirement is set, even if you don’t invest another dollar. I wouldn’t say that I don’t need to keep investing. I think I do. But I don’t really see myself retiring early in the traditional like FIRE sense because I have, A) A very useful skill that’s highly needed in this country. B) I speak Spanish, which is really useful in my part of the country. C) I’m just such a busybody. Like I could never stop working, you know, <laugh> like, I just, when people talk about staying home, like with children, I’m like, I could never do that. I could have children, but I’m not staying home with them 100% of the time. So, yeah, Coast FI for me just means that I have the financial flexibility to choose something that means something to me, as opposed to just a means to an end, to like pay my bills. And a part of that has also been keeping my expenses low. But the other part is, like you said, everything I did to set myself up in my twenties. And, you know, a few years ago, I probably would’ve told you that I would quit working at 45. And now that I’ve been in the PhD program, I’m like, no, there’s so much to do. There’s no way I could cut off 15 or 20 years off my career, you know?

41:26 Emily: That’s so interesting that you described earlier kind of finding, getting into like a lull in your career. Like you weren’t so stimulated. And I think that some people, like you did, would see FIRE, the potential to retire early, as the solution to that. And you did, but you also found another solution, which is, you know, taking your career in a slightly different direction, going down the academic path. And you found that reinvigoration there. And now you have kind of choices on both fronts. You have many career options, you have many financial options, to work, to not work, to work in a capacity that other people would not be able to, perhaps, because they hadn’t maybe had all these, you know, made all these decisions in their twenties and so forth. So, kind of the world is your oyster really <laugh> once you finish this program.

42:09 Brenda: Yeah. And things have come up during the PhD program. I don’t know if it’s because of the PhD program, but for example, I was a volunteer vaccinator for a local community center that was giving out COVID-19 vaccines every three weeks. And I was just consistently going, because I just wanted to help my community. And then they reached out to me about being the clinical consultant for their community center, because it was part of their grant. It would help their grant application if they had someone, you know, whose name they could put down, and they offered to pay me for that as well. That was an income source I forgot to tell you about. So, they pay me $500 a month, and I basically like attend some meetings and answer questions about COVID, about the vaccine, about what to do if this or that. And that was something I never would’ve thought I would do. You know? And it’s just like kind of a result of just saying yes, like I was like, well, I don’t see clinical consultant on my resume yet. <Laugh> but I guess I’ll do it. You just tell me what to do and I’ll show up, you know?

43:17 Emily: That comes from having that financial margin in your life and the time margin, right? To be able to say yes to, at first unpaid, but then later look what it turned into, you know, opportunities, which is something I could certainly <laugh> learn from.

Post-PhD Plans

43:29 Emily: Okay. So let’s talk a slight bit more about post-PhD plans. You mentioned earlier, you know, you have a few different career paths that you might choose among. What are you thinking?

43:40 Brenda: So, the idea of working in industry, or like the pharmaceutical area appeals to me because every pharmaceutical company has a medical affairs division in which they have doctoral-level prepared clinicians or pharmacists, which kind of serve as the bridge between the scientists creating the drug or the device and the prescribers out in the world. And so, that’s actually a really lucrative option. Like I know a couple people who do it and they make about $170,000 plus bonuses. So, they’re making like $200,000 a year. So, if I wanted money, that’s what I would do. <Laugh> which I’m not above saying that I want money. Okay. <laugh> so if that job came up, I would definitely consider it. Then there’s obviously the traditional route of pursuing some kind of tenure-track research career in academia. I’m kind of iffy on that. I don’t know that it’s the best use of my strengths. I’m definitely a people person. I’m an extrovert. I can do writing and I can write grants, and I could potentially, you know, try to prove myself to the NIH for the rest of my life <Laugh> to try to get research money, but I’m not sure that I want that.

45:03 Brenda: And then, I could do a blend of clinical practice and teaching where I just teach as an adjunct and I maintain my clinical practice. That’s kind of what I was doing before the PhD. So, I’m not sure that I would really be maximizing what I learned in the PhD if I went back to that. And then there’s a postdoc if I do want pursue research and I just want to get into someone else’s work and see what they’re doing, and maybe that’ll make me more excited about a tenure-track career. And then I was also looking at the National Clinician Scholars Program, which is kind of like a subset of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. And that’s a program at six campuses all over the country in which you basically get more education on health policy and organizational change. And most of the graduates go on to work at like the Department of Health or Health and Human Services or the CDC or some kind of federal agency where policy is happening. So, that’s probably one of my top ones. Pharma’s one of my top ones, and teaching in a, non-research, like very little research, that’s probably my third one.

46:11 Emily: Yeah. Well, hopefully, you have all of those things on the table once you get towards your graduation. And like you said, money could play a role in your decision, or maybe you’ll be following, you know, what seems most interesting to you. And again, the position that you’re in affords you those options. So, it’s wonderful to hear. And I think you said earlier, you know, you’re probably not going to be idle, right? Even once you achieve financial independence, however you want to define that. It sounds like you expect to have a long career, which is, once you’ve invested in something like a PhD program, it’s very, I think, worthwhile to keep your skills out there and keep, you know, working for your communities you’ve said so far. Yeah. Anything else you want to add about what you envision your life to change or not change? Like after you achieve financial independence?

46:57 Brenda: I think as a woman and as someone in their early thirties, you know, one of the big factors in deciding what I do is like, if I want to start a family, and what career option would be most conducive to that. And like you said, I have options, but like women have to think about that more. And especially in academia or in science, like you don’t want to be put on the mommy track, right? So, that’s also something I consider like if I were to have children, would it be right away after the PhD? Would I settle into another job? Like give it a year or two? I’m going to be 33 in September. Like what about my, you know, what about my fertility? Like, there are so many things to think about. And I think that’s very real for a lot of women in academia, right? It’s like juggling your human babies and the baby of your career, which is your research or whatever you’re working on post-PhD.

48:00 Emily: Absolutely. And another thing that having a strong financial position just puts you in a strong position to decide about. If you want to take an extra long maternity leave that’s unpaid, but you have a job to go back to, well, maybe that’s going to be, you know, the best situation for you, or maybe not. Maybe it’ll be a different decision, but whatever you do, I mean, having money gives you options. I say that over and over again, it just gives you options. And that’s really what you have now, which is so delightful to hear.

Where Can People Find You?

48:24 Emily: So, if people want to hear more from you, where can they find you?

48:29 Brenda: I’m on Twitter @almostbrenda, like the word almost, and then my name, almost Brenda. And that’s also my Instagram handle and my email address at Gmail, almostbrenda@gmail.com. I’m on LinkedIn. That’s linkedin.com/in/bolmosfnp for family nurse practitioner. And I’d love to connect with people. Even if, you know, even if you just want to talk about how to improve your finances, I know Emily, you’re a great resource for that. And I’ve been in the Community forums there too. But if you’re interested in coming on our podcast, I cohost Minority Millennial Money which is on Apple and Spotify and all of the platforms. We love to have people come on and we talk through their finances with them and see what they could do better. So yeah, I’m easily reachable. I’m all over the internet. <Laugh>

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

49:26 Emily: Wonderful. I hope you’ll have a few people follow up with you from this. Okay. I’m going to conclude with the question that I always ask my guests at the end of interviews, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

49:44 Brenda: I would say it would be to disassociate your self-worth from your net worth, right? Because although I’m in a particularly advantageous position, I know how difficult it must be for people who are not in this position and are looking forward to those days when they get to earn a higher living. And you know, you’re already undervaluing your skills. You’re already in places that may be toxic and not supportive. Like, the very least you could do is like not value yourself based on what’s in your bank account. <Laugh>. And also, if you have the ability to keep investing, like to not lose time, because time is money in the market, right? So, anything you can throw at it is super helpful.

50:32 Emily: Great messages to end on. Brenda, thank you so much for this delightful interview!

50:36 Brenda: Yeah. Thank you!

Outtro

50:42 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School

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In this episode, Emily shares the first section of a written guide she recently added to the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, titled How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School. FIRE stands for Financial Independence / Retire Early, and it’s a big movement among personal finance enthusiasts right now. At first, Emily didn’t believe graduate school and the pursuit of FIRE were compatible, but the many interviewees she’s had on the podcast who are pursuing a PhD and FIRE simultaneously changed her mind. In the introduction, Emily introduces FIRE and the general ways people pursue it and lists the four biggest levers a graduate student could pull to pursue FIRE right away.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Introduction

Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts.

This is Season 10, Episode 19, and today I’m going to read to you the introduction to a written guide that I recently added to the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, titled How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School. FIRE stands for Financial Independence / Retire Early, and it’s a big movement among personal finance enthusiasts right now. I have to admit that at first I didn’t think graduate school and the pursuit of FIRE were compatible, but the many interviewees I’ve had on the podcast who are pursuing a PhD and FIRE simultaneously changed my mind. In the introduction, which I’ll read to you momentarily, I introduce FIRE and the general ways people pursue it and list what I think are the four biggest levers a graduate student could pull to pursue FIRE right away.

If you are pursuing FIRE or are interested in it, I’d love to hear from you. Please join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community right now, today. Once you’re a member, you can do two things:

  1. Read the rest of the guide, which goes into detail about all the financial opportunities graduate students have to pursue FIRE, from increasing their incomes to building assets to mindset work.
  2. Join me and other Community members for a special live discussion and Q&A call on Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:30 PM Pacific Time. We have live calls like this once per month, and this month’s is dedicated to the topic of FIRE. I really want to hear from you. I’m going to continue to expand and edit the guide based on the ideas and experiences of Community members and future podcast interviewees.

In case you’re listening to this after December 2021, no worries. You can still join the Community to read the current incarnation of the guide and chat with us about FIRE in the Forum or the next upcoming monthly call. Again, go to PFforPhDs.community to sign up!

One last note. I reference a bunch of previous podcast episodes in the introduction. All these episodes are linked in the show notes, which you can find linked from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/.
Without further ado, here’s the introduction to How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School.

How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School: Introduction

I was in graduate school when the current incarnation of the FIRE movement started picking up steam. At that time, the acronym FIRE (financial independence / retire early) was not yet in use, and people focused mostly on the “retire early” goal—not retiring at 55 like some Boomers had, but retiring by 30 or 40. Pete Adeney of Mr. Money Mustache was one of the leading voices, having achieved early retirement at age 30 by combining a well-paid engineering career with rigorous frugality.

At first, I found the idea of early retirement to be largely unappealing. The chief reason was that graduate school was supposed to be the foundation for a long, meaningful, fulfilling career… Why would I plan to retire early from that already? Why would any PhD (a group I was growing more interested in creating content for)? I couldn’t get behind that idea.

Thankfully, my disinterest in FIRE in my mid-20s didn’t diminish my passion for personal finance writ large, and I still invested, practiced frugality, and attempted to increase my income to the best of my ability and knowledge at that time.

My view is different now, a decade later. While I still don’t consider myself part of the FIRE movement, I do see its appeal, even for PhDs.

1) I’ve changed: I’m ten years older. I have children now. I’ve switched careers, and I’m a business owner. I earn and spend much more money than I did during graduate school. My and my husband’s parents have retired (at a traditional age). I better understand why having the financial ability to downshift, change, or stop active work before age 70 is attractive.

2) The FIRE movement has changed: There’s a greater emphasis on financial independence rather than early retirement. The featured voices are more diverse. There are numerous well-documented paths to achieve FIRE, not just the earn-a-lot/spend-very-little model from Mr. Money Mustache.

3) Most importantly, I’ve met numerous graduate students and PhDs who do identify as part of the FIRE movement. They don’t see a contradiction between pursuing a PhD-type career and financial independence simultaneously. I’ve learned from their philosophies and methods. The Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast interviews I’ve published that touch on FIRE have been with:

In this guide, I won’t attempt to convince you to pursue FIRE—because I haven’t fully convinced myself. I will show you how you can pursue FIRE as a funded PhD student. We will explore multiple potential strategies, and I am confident that you will be able to adopt at least one of them.

How you pursue FIRE during graduate school will look different than how you pursue it when you have a post-PhD “Real Job,” but you can get started right here, right now.

What is FIRE?

FIRE stands for Financial Independence / Retire Early. FIRE is a movement within the broader personal finance community that has gained popularity in the last decade, roughly coinciding with the long bull stock market post-Great Recession.

Being financially independent (FI) means that you no longer need to work for an income to maintain your lifestyle and that you expect to maintain this status until your death. Once you cease working to generate an income, you have retired. The early part of the name refers to achieving financial independence earlier than the typical retirement age of 70-ish. Some superstars in this movement reach FI by age 30, while others set their sights on age 40 or 50.

Broadly speaking, there are three common ways to achieve FIRE, and some people use a combination:

  1. Purchase a portfolio of paper assets (e.g., stocks and bonds) from which you can draw an income
  2. Buy or build an asset or set of assets that generate income, such as a business or real estate portfolio
  3. Qualify for a pension, e.g., after 20 years of military service

I’m going to omit the option of a pension from the remainder of my discussion because 1) it’s not common for people in my audience to qualify for one, 2) within the FIRE movement it’s typically combined with another strategy as well, and 3) there are other good resources on pensions specifically.

How you determine that you have achieved FI is beyond the scope of this guide. Our focus is on the start of the journey, the pursuit of FI, and how to do it during graduate school.

However, to give you a rough idea, to know that you are FI you must have a good grasp on how much money it takes to sustain your lifestyle, i.e., how much you spend yearly. For example, FatFIRE is considered a yearly spend of $100,000 or more, while LeanFIRE is considered a yearly spend of $40,000 or less.

If you have a pension or own a business or real estate portfolio, the amount of income it generates should be more than the amount of money you spend for you to be considered FI. With respect to paper assets, a popular rule of thumb based on the Trinity Study is to have a portfolio of twenty-five times your yearly spend. For example, if you want to live on $40,000 per year indefinitely, adjusted for inflation, your portfolio should be valued at $1,000,000 or more.

How do you pursue FIRE?

How exactly you will pursue FIRE depends a great deal on your personality, career goals, and lifestyle desires.

At some point, you must create or purchase assets of the type I listed above. While you can start on that during grad school, creating or purchasing assets does not have to be the first step on your journey to FIRE, depending on the rest of your financial picture. If you are in debt, your first step may be to repay debt. If you have no savings or little savings, your first step might be to save up cash. If your income is low or unreliable, your first step might be to increase your income so that you don’t rack up any debt.

I recommend following the eight-step Financial Framework that I developed for use by graduate students and early-career PhDs. It will help you decide which financial goal is best to pursue at any given stage in your financial journey. You can find this Framework detailed in several resources inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, including the ebook The Wealthy PhD and the recorded workshop Optimized Financial Goal-Setting for Early-Career PhDs.

In brief, the Framework Steps are to:

  1. Save a starter emergency fund
  2. Pay off all high-priority debt
  3. Prepare for irregular expenses
  4. Invest a minimum percent of your income for retirement
  5. Pay off all medium-priority debt
  6. Save a full emergency fund
  7. Invest more for retirement and/or other goals
  8. Pay off all low-priority debt

The Framework is fully compatible with the pursuit of FIRE, though a FIRE adherent will likely move through the Framework steps faster than the average and may pursue additional financial goals such as purchasing real estate.

There are two less tangible but no less important ways that I recommend that you pursue FIRE starting in graduate school, both of which involve your own development.

1) Your career. I am confident that one of the major reasons you entered graduate school was for career development. Using your time in graduate school to set yourself up for a fulfilling and well-paying career is vital. Do not lose sight of this goal in your pursuit of FIRE. Your future, higher income is going to play a major role in how fast you will achieve FIRE. On the flip side, if a PhD no longer figures into your vision for your future, do not stay in graduate school; jump ship for a higher-paying job.

2) Your mindset and systems. To achieve FIRE, you must have a certain kind of money mindset and well-established systems and habits. You will continually develop these in your pursuit of FIRE. Even if you are unable to increase your net worth much during graduate school, pursuing your career and mindset development now is worthwhile to pay major dividends later.

What makes grad school different?

Your pursuit of FIRE during grad school is likely to look quite different from how you would pursue it if you were not in grad school or how you will pursue it post-PhD.

Generally speaking, PhD students accept a low stipend in exchange for training that—we hope—will qualify them for more lucrative jobs later on. They could be making more money right now in another job, but graduate school is a long-term career investment. Blanket personal finance advice to switch jobs or negotiate to increase your income does not apply well for graduate students (although there are many ways to increase your income, which I cover later in this guide).

In non-pandemic times, most graduate students are required to live in close proximity to the university they attend, although some may be permitted to finish their degrees remotely. For the former group, geographic arbitrage is not available. Geographic arbitrage, a common FIRE strategy, is when you choose to live in a low cost-of-living area while maintaining an income more suited for a high cost-of-living area so that you can boost your savings rate.

Finally, graduate school is a major time commitment. Few PhD students consistently cap their work weeks at 40 hours. You may have less time for outside income-increasing or asset-creating pursuits during grad school in comparison with other times of life.

My Personal Favorite Steps

In the second half of this guide, I will explore numerous possible strategies to further your FIRE journey during grad school. Some of them are what I call “big levers,” which are strategies that are virtually guaranteed to greatly increase your available cash flow and are possibly unusual choices for a graduate student. This increased cash flow can then be saved, invested, or used to repay debt. In your pursuit of FIRE during grad school, I think it will be very helpful for your psychology to pull one of these big levers if you’re able to. It will be clear to you that you are serious about your commitment to FIRE, which will help keep you on the path.

I want to give you a quick preview here as to what I believe these big levers are before we go through all the strategies in much more detail.

Big lever #1 is to choose a graduate program that provides a 12-month stipend that is well above the local living wage. If you’re a prospective graduate student, simply don’t consider any offers that fail to meet that bar, even if they are good fit for you otherwise.

Big lever #2 is to commit to applying for awards like it’s your part-time job—everything from multi-year, full-stipend fellowships to small poster competitions.

Big lever #3 is to radically reduce or eliminate your housing expense. Two potential ways you can achieve that are to house hack or serve as a resident advisor.

Big lever #4 is to start a side business with the potential, at least, to pay you a high hourly rate. You’re most likely to generate a high pay rate by employing the skills and knowledge you’ve developed during your graduate program.

If you can’t pull one of these big levers in your remaining time in graduate school, that’s fine. Put in place one of the smaller strategies from this guide, and if possible keep stacking those up throughout your time in graduate school.

Personally, even though I hadn’t committed to FIRE when I was a graduate student, I was putting a lot of effort into my personal finances. I didn’t know about these big levers or most of the other strategies I’ll discuss in the second half of the guide. I pulled just one big lever by accident, which was to attend Duke for my PhD in biomedical engineering. I wasn’t at all considering the stipend when I made that decision, but I realized later what a boon it was. My stipend was approximately 30% higher than the local living wage, which meant that with careful budgeting I could sustain a decent savings rate.

Over our seven years of PhD training, my husband and I increased our combined net worth by over $100,000. You can hear all about how we did that in Season 1 Episode 1 of the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. Now, seven years removed from when we defended, I can clearly see that the time value of money continues to honor those early efforts, even though we earn and save much more post-PhD. That money forms the bedrock of our current financial security.

By applying just one of the big levers or a few of the smaller strategies in this guide, I firmly believe that you also will accelerate your progress toward FIRE, even as a graduate student. Many of the people I’ve interviewed on the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast have far exceeded my own degree of financial success using the strategies I’ll share with you next.

Conclusion

It’s Emily again! That is the end of the introduction to How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School. If you liked what you heard and want to read about all the strategies and join the live call on Wednesday, December 15, 2021, please join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Outro

Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode!

pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved!

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow:

  1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use.
  2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website.
  3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes.
  4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs.

See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps!

The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC.

Podcast editing and show notes creation by me, Emily Roberts.

This Grad Student Eliminated Her Housing Expense to Pay Off Her Student Loans

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Erika Moore Taylor, an assistant professor at the University of Florida and the founder of Moore Wealth. When Erika started her PhD at Duke, she had $65,000 of student loan debt, which she committed to paying off before her graduation. One of the strategies she used that made the biggest impact was to serve as a resident advisor, thereby eliminating her housing expense. Erika shares how her money mindset fueled her motivation to achieve her debt repayment goal and how she is now pursuing FIRE.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Eliminate housing expense to pay off student loans

Teaser

00:00 Erika: I did factor in cost of living. So being the poor broke graduate student is a trope that we’re all familiar with, but I think some areas lend to that trope more strongly than others.

Introduction

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season 10, episode eight, and today my guest is Dr. Erika Moore Taylor, an assistant professor at the University of Florida and the founder of Moore Wealth. When Erika started her PhD at Duke, she had $65,000 of student loan debt, which she committed to paying off before her graduation. One of the strategies she used that made the biggest impact was to serve as a resident advisor, thereby eliminating her housing expense. Erika shares how her money mindset fueled her motivation to achieve her debt repayment goal and how she’s now pursuing financial independence and early retirement. If you want to be inspired to set an audacious financial goal and also plot your path to achieve that goal, I highly recommend joining the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhds.community.

01:14 Emily: There are numerous courses, webinars, recordings, and eBooks to help you figure out what financial goal to pursue right now, for example, repaying student loans versus investing, and how to go about it. Just to take some examples that relate to today’s subject: I recently recorded a set of four workshops for the Community, two of which are titled, “Whether and How to Pay Off Debt as an Early Career PhD,” and, “How to Uplevel your Cashflow as an Early Career PhD.” These workshops teach frameworks and strategies for pursuing goals, like the ones Erika set during grad school, and actually can guide you for years and decades post-PhD as well. Best of all is the community aspect of the Community. There’s a forum available 24/7 to which you can post your questions and prompts, and I host a monthly live call for discussion and Q&A. We’ve spent a lot of our live call time in recent months, discussing homeownership, investing, and career and life transitions. But of course, any financial topic is welcome. To learn more about the excellent content and other opportunities available inside the Community, go to P F F O R P H D S.Community. I hope to see you in our October live call. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Erikca Moore Taylor.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:39 Emily: I am absolutely thrilled to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Erika Moore Taylor. She is actually an assistant professor at the University of Florida, and she finished her PhD in 2018 from none other than the Department of Biomedical Engineering at Duke University, which is the same department that I graduated from four years earlier. So we did overlap I think a little bit, but Erika is joining us today to tell us an incredible debt repayment story from her time in graduate school, as well as giving us some updates on what she’s been up to since she defended. So Erika, it’s a real pleasure to have you on. Welcome! And will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

03:17 Erika: Yes, thank you so much for having me Emily, or should I say, Dr. Roberts? It’s nice that we have that connection from Duke. And as you said, after I left Duke, actually before I got to Duke, I started thinking about finances and basically use my time at Duke to understand and learn my own personal finance mindset as well as what I wanted my journey to look like. And since then, I’ve been fortunate enough to start my position at the University of Florida, but also start a company focused on personal finance and financial literacy. So I think that’s all I want the audience to know about me so far.

Financial Mindset at the Start of Grad School

03:56 Emily: That is awesome. We’re going to talk so much more about that. So let’s take it back, rewind to when you were getting out of undergrad and starting graduate school. What was your financial mindset like at the time, and what did your finances look like at that time?

04:09 Erika: Yeah, so taking it all the way back to I think it was 2012, this was the year before I started graduate school and I was fortunate enough to do an internship in Boston. And I was kind of bored during the internship, and so I took up personal finance. I started reading books about personal finance because I realized that if I graduated on time from my undergraduate institution, I’d be graduating with $65,000 worth of debt. So in 2013, when I started my graduate program at Duke, I had the mindset of being shackled and weighed down with debt. I was very concerned about debt because I knew that no matter what I did after graduate school, that debt would follow me. It would be with me like a shadow that I couldn’t shake. And so it scared me because I felt like I had done the right moves in graduating and surviving undergraduate and getting into grad school, but I hadn’t made the right financial moves. So my mindset was scarcity.

05:11 Emily: It’s so interesting to me that that student loans, in particular, provoked that scarcity mindset. By the way, did you have any other debt at that time? Aside from the student loans?

05:20 Erika: I didn’t, but when I first started grad school, I bought a car for about 13 or $14,000. So then that added to my debt. So the fear amplified.

05:31 Emily: I think that some people have, I don’t necessarily want to say, like, they feel casually about their student loan debt, but especially when you’re going straight from undergrad into grad school, like you never entered repayment. So maybe the pain of the student loan repayment was not upon you logistically, although it was still there like psychologically. And so some other people I think are just a little bit more, maybe dismissive. And I’m talking about myself. I was very dismissive about the student loan debt that I had from undergrad. It was less than yours, but I was just like, “Oh, it’s subsidized. I’m going to grad school. It’ll still be deferred. No big deal.” Yes, I did know on the other side of graduate school that I would have to pay it off. But it did not bother me psychologically. So why do you think you had the view that you did instead of just feeling a little bit more comfortable with it?

06:18 Erika: Yeah. I think I had the view that I did because I knew I would have to get a job afterwards. And before I entered grad school, I had a job at a daycare working about $7 or $8 an hour. And I had never seen $65,000 in my bank account. I had never seen $65,000 in a job that I could work. And so the fact that I had that much debt was alarming to me, like you said, psychologically, because I had never secured a job that earned that much. And so I, again, was operating in scarcity saying like, “Well, if I have this much debt, I need to pay it off because, you know, I don’t know if I will be able to pay it off.” I didn’t know, you know, how much money I’d make in a job setting in using my degree. And so I was just motivated by that number by the sticker shock, I think price of my undergraduate degree, that really motivated me to pay it off.

Savings and Stipends

07:18 Emily: So starting in grad school, can you share with us did you have any savings or any kind of assets at that time, and also what was your stipend when you started?

07:26 Erika: Yeah, so starting in graduate school, my net worth was I think about negative $60,000. So I had $65,000 worth of debt. And then I had saved around maybe six or $7,000. I saved that money because I knew I would need to put a down payment on my car that I would need to buy in North Carolina, it’s not really public transportation friendly. So I knew that I needed a car as a vehicle. And then I saved a couple of other thousand dollars for a down payment on securing the place that I was going to rent. So first and last month’s rent as well as, you know, a security deposit. So I had, you know, maybe six or $7,000 in my checking account. I was fortunate enough to secure the National Science Graduate Research Fellowship, [GRFP]. And that set my stipend, I think at the time around $32,000 a year.

08:20 Emily: Yeah. Fantastic. And three years of guaranteed funding. That’s awesome. And so actually I want to rewind for a second because having won the NSF GRFP, you, I would imagine, had your selection of graduate programs. So why Duke instead of a different program?

Factoring in Cost of Living

08:40 Erika: Yeah, that’s an excellent question. And you’re right, securing the NSF GRFP, you’re kind of hot on the market, so to speak. So lots of schools will take you even if you didn’t even apply to the school. Thankfully I had already been encouraged to consider Duke because of my graduate research advisor who had just recently moved there. But specifically when I was making my list and considering what schools or programs I would attend, I did factor in cost of living. So being the poor broke graduate student is a trope that we’re all familiar with, but I think some areas lend to that trope more strongly than others. So I kind of eliminated going to Boston or going to San Francisco, even going to San Diego, where there are very strong biomedical engineering programs, but where the cost of living would make it extremely challenging to live independent of my stipend.

09:33 Erika: Additionally, I eliminated any program that had to add on top of the NSF GRFP to meet the standard of living. So that’s something that I don’t think a lot of people know. The NSF GRFP is already above the average stipend in most cases, but in some schools or programs where the cost of living is so high, they have to add on top of that. And so I was like, that means that even if I’m making above average, that’s still not enough to cover the cost of living in this area. So I eliminated those, which is how I landed at Duke.

10:07 Emily: I’m really glad you brought that up. I was thinking, you know, maybe you’re looking at, you know, $32K everywhere and then, oh, wow. It’s an easy choice to go to Durham over, you know, Boston or San Francisco or something. But even knowing that you were going to get a supplement above that, that’s really great that you consider that as well, because you’re right. Like if you look at the median cost of living in Durham, I’m pretty sure for a single person it’s still below $32K, or even below $30K, maybe at this point, I haven’t looked at the data super recently, but I know that when I was there, I did look at the living wage database from MIT. I think when I started at Duke, my stipend was $24,000, because I was getting the base stipend from the department, but I believe the living wage was something like 18, $19,000.

10:45 Emily: And so it was well above that number for a single person. That is not the situation when you go to these more high cost of living cities, but also just graduate programs that don’t pay super well. Duke pays fine for its base stipend as far as I’m aware. Okay. So I’m glad we, you know, we’re seeing how intentional you are when you are going into the selection of graduate school. Now we’re going to go back to where you are, you know, you’re entering graduate school. You have the student loan debt kind of hanging above you and you’ve talked about, you know, what motivated you. What was the exact goal that you set regarding your student loans? Did you want to pay them off entirely? Did you want to pay them off partially? Did you want to be doing retirement savings? Like what was your financial goal at that time?

Student Loan Goals

11:25 Erika: This is a great question, Emily, and I love this because it does break down where my mind was. So I had two buckets of student loans, the first were my own personal federally secured student loans, the second bucket were parent plus secured federal loans. And my parents made it very clear that I was expected to pay back both of those. So they were not going to pay back the parent plus loans. I was expected to cover both of them. The parent plus loan was in essence, a loan that they gave me through the federal government. And so my strategy initially was just to pay off the parent plus loans because I said, if I can lower the debt that I owe my parents or the federal government through my parents, then I’ll be in a much better shape. Additionally, those were the largest loans that I had. So I think I had one that was $20,000 and one that was about $25,000 in parent plus loans. My own personal federal loans were much smaller, you know, by comparison. So I said, it’d be great if, while I was in grad school, I could just pay those off. That was stage one.

12:31 Emily: Yeah. And so just to gain a little bit more clarity here. So your student loans that were in your name, those were deferred because you were in graduate school. Were they also subsidized? It wasn’t like you only took out the subsidized portion?

12:43 Erika: No, I had subsidized and unsubsidized loans.

12:46 Emily: Okay. So part of it subsidized, part of it’s un-subsidized. And then the parent loans that your parents had, those are not in deferment because they’re not yours, technically. So it’s so interesting. So you sort of considered yourself to be in repayment because your parents were in repayment for that portion of the loans. Do you remember what that minimum, like the minimum payment that they had to make that you were trying to make for them, was when you started?

13:08 Erika: Yeah, so actually, because I am the obsessive person that I am, I made a massive spreadsheet, which is something that I recommend to anyone who’s in debt, right? Making a spreadsheet of every single loan, all of the interest and all of the, you know, what the minimum payment is. So at the time, just for my parent plus loans, not my un-subsidized personalized loans, the payment was around $250 a month. The interest rates were low. So it wasn’t that high of a number.

Reducing Housing Expenses and Increasing Income

13:38 Emily: Okay. So let’s sort of progress in time through graduate school. What did you start doing during graduate school to, because I know you did, how did you increase your income? You’re already on the NSF GRFP, but I know you did even more to increase your income.

13:54 Erika: Yeah. So I was very fortunate to be encouraged to look outside of the box. And so when you look outside of the box, you start thinking about what are the most expensive items in my budget and how can I eliminate or dramatically reduce those? And for most people, the most expensive item is where you live. And so I applied to be a graduate resident at Duke, which is a very awesome program. I highly recommend it if you’re in grad school, look in to see if your university has a graduate resident program, because it allowed me to connect better with the undergraduate community, but most importantly, it allowed me to live for free. And so I applied and was awarded that role. And the first year was very challenging, but I served as a graduate resident for four out of the five years of my PhD. That was one major prong.

14:45 Emily: Yeah. Wow. So you completely eliminated your housing expense. That’s incredible. And I’m actually thinking, did that role play a part in your subsequent faculty applications? Like did that come up at all later on? Was it an asset, I guess, on your CV as it is what I’m asking?

15:00 Erika: Yes. It was an asset on my CV due to my familiarity with the administration and the structure as it relates to undergraduate curriculum and undergraduate engagement. And it also bridged me into serving as the Duke University Graduate and Professional Young Trustee. So it definitely allowed me to keep my hands in many pots at Duke and then it allowed me to leverage those opportunities into a faculty position.

15:32 Emily: Yeah. I love it when I can find something that benefits someone both financially and on the CV, and for future funding applications or, you know, whatever it might be. Did you do anything else on the increasing income side?

15:44 Erika: Yes. So the second prong of my approach was I sort of started serving as a house sitter or pet sitter. So this was a hustle that I was not able to maintain. Just because it took so much bandwidth. I was in lab, you know, a lot of time that I was also serving as a graduate resident, which took when I started out about 20 hours a week. So it was a tremendous time commitment. But I essentially wrote how much of the job was worth. And I wrote it in big letters and I just posted it on my door. And I said, you know, whenever you want to complain, just look at that dollar amount. And then during years two and three, I would house sit for professors for different professionals who were going out of town or who were in transient positions, watching their pets, doing things around their houses. So those are the main ways that I accelerated my debt repayment plan.

16:40 Emily: And you said that you didn’t maintain the house and pet sitting. It was too time intensive. Was that the main reason?

16:45 Erika: Yes. The house and pet sitting, I just found that, you know, in life you’re juggling a few balls and then you throw in the graduate resident ball, and then you throw in the stresses of graduate school and trying to complete your PhD. And then I threw in this other ball of house sitting and pet sitting. So it was just one too many balls and I had to think, what can I let drop? And it honestly wasn’t worth the time commitment always. So I definitely let it drop.

17:08 Emily: Yeah. Very, very strategic.

Commercial

17:13 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. This announcement is for prospective and first-year graduate students. My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society, offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s four-step grad boss method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, up-level your productivity, and master time management. I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course titled, “Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School.” It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school. If this all sounds great to you, please register at theacademicsociety.com/emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join Grad School Prep, if you’d like to go a step further. Again, that’s theacademicsociety.com/E M I L Y for my affiliate link for the course. Now, back to our interview.

Anything Else to Control Expenses?

18:40 Emily: Okay. So that’s on the income side. Did you do anything else on the, you know, controlling expenses, decreasing expenses side of the equation?

18:47 Erika: Yes, even though I purchased my car, I paid off my car within the first year that I had the loan. So that was really important to me because at the time that was my highest interest debt. And then I actually didn’t drive that much because I didn’t want to pay for maintenance of the car. So I think I got my oil changed about every 12 to 18 months. And because I drove that infrequently, I would, you know, get a ride with friends or I would just walk to a location or I would take, you know, some of the commuter trains into downtown. Commuter buses, excuse me, into downtown. And so I basically decreased my use of the car. And then also my friends know I’m pretty cheap or frugal as a person. So I ate out a lot, but I strategically ate out. So part of the graduate resident job comes with a food stipend. And so I would have meetings or hang out with friends, but it’d be on campus where I could use my meal points. And then also a part of the role was also facilitating community development. So that meant ordering food. And so I would go to the events because that was part of my job. But if there were leftovers, I would take that food and that would be lunch for the week. So I reduced my food expenses and I reduced my transportation expenses.

Balance Sheet and Loans at the End of Grad School

20:00 Emily: Yeah. I think the taking leftovers home from events is a very classic grad student. I think a lot of people are employing that strategy, but you combined it with the, “Oh no, I have a job that actually pays me to eat on occasion.” Okay. So let’s then jump ahead to the end of graduate school. What was your balance sheet at the time? How did you do against these student loans?

20:21 Erika: Yeah, so by the end of graduate school, I had completely eliminated my student loan debt, my parent plus loans and my personal loans. And I had, I think it was still around six or $7,000 saved.

20:35 Emily: Okay.

20:36 Erika: So positive net worth.

20:38 Emily: Yeah. Complete debt elimination. That’s amazing. Congratulations on achieving that goal. And obviously you, I mean, to pay off $65,000 of debt during graduate school while on a graduate student stipend, it’s just, it’s an amazing, amazing accomplishment. I did, if the listeners are interested and you want motivation for your own debt repayment journey during graduate school, I did actually do an interview back in season one with Dr. Jenni Rinker, who also went to Duke, who also had the NSF GRFP. And she also paid off, I think it was yeah, in the low sixties thousand dollars of student loan debt, while in graduate school. She had a different approach than yours. I think she was like a major, major side hustler, whereas you went this like RA route. They both can work fantastically. So really happy to have that. And actually also from season one, there’s another example of an interview I did with an RA. And he also had amazing benefits associated with his resident advisor position.

Would You Have Done it Again the Same Way?

21:26 Emily: So, okay. I still want to think about you back in 2018 when you defended, you’ve conquered the student loan debt. Would you have done it again the same way?

21:35 Erika: I would do it again the same way, because the skills that I’ve learned through the process of accumulating that debt and then paying it off are now with me today. So I apply them in different ways, but I think showing that I could be disciplined over wh at, at the time, seemed like a massive amount of debt to me has transitioned my discipline in so many different ways. So I’m grateful for the experience. Sometimes you kind of need to be slowed down or you need to learn a lesson. So I look at my student loan debt as the lesson that I needed to learn. And then I just try to apply those skills in many different ways.

22:14 Emily: I feel like, so when I finished my PhD, like literally, like when I passed my defense, like finished my PhD, I had this feeling, a very expansive feeling of, I can do literally anything. I can conquer any mountain, like in front of me. I felt that way a couple of other times in my life. But in the financial arena, I don’t know if I’ve had that. But did you have a moment like that? Like with the last payment that you made, did you feel, you know, you had these insights and so forth. Can you tell us about that?

22:44 Erika: Yeah. When I made the final payment, it was kind of anticlimactic. And maybe this is the scarcity mindset in me, but I have sisters and family members who had been working and contributing to their retirement accounts. I hadn’t done any of that. I was just focused on eliminating debt. And so I was like 27, I think, when I defended. No, 26, when I defended and I was kind of like, okay, now I’m really behind because I don’t have any retirement savings. So it kind of just clicked, you know, gears from debt repayment to retirement savings. And it wasn’t quite as I think, as momentous as I would’ve hoped.

Finances in Marriage

26:07 Emily: Yeah. Is there anything else you want to tell us about like, sort of what your life looks like now, financially?

26:12 Erika: Yes. So I got married, which has been an interesting journey. I think it’s been fun. But I love talking about finances. So I immerse that immediately into my relationship. And my husband actually came into the marriage with student loan debt. So there was a moment of panic where I was like, I don’t want to go back to that. And so we came up with a plan to basically, even though we’re dual income, we only live off of one income, and we attacked his debt. And now we’re just full steam ahead planning for really important things in our lives. And so I’m anti-debt now in a major way. And so we were talking about, oh, maybe in few years, we’ll buy a car. And so I’m like, okay, what’s our savings plan to afford this car? Because I’m not going back into debt.

27:01 Erika: Or we talk about going on trips. So later this summer, we’re going to Hawaii, which we’re really excited about. But we are trying to save and plan for that now. Right? All of the excursions and activities we want to go on, I’m not charging them. I want to have the cash to pay for them. And so that means we have to make sacrifices in other areas, but it’s been really fun, fine tuning. What are our shared, you know, drivers, what do we enjoy spending money on, and what things do we not care about as much? So that’s what we are continually working on now as a couple.

27:34 Emily: Yeah, that sounds amazing. I don’t want to put this in like a light where like, “Oh, it’s a great experience to have a low-income for a long time during graduate school with no hope of increasing it.” It’s not great. It’s not great. The silver lining on that very, very, very dark cloud is that in some situations you can embrace some good habits, maybe develop your mindset and so forth. And it really does sound like what you did. You mentioned the word discipline earlier. So you developed your discipline again over this long debt repayment journey. And again, within, you know, the confined circumstances that you had financially during graduate school. So I think that’s amazing. I certainly also developed really good financial habits during graduate school that have continued. And I’m happy now with a higher income to have them serving me well at this point because it’s really gratifying to have a higher income to work with when you have those good habits in place.

Moore Wealth

28:24 Emily: So you mentioned at the top that you have a company now, Moore Wealth, would you please tell us more about what you do through that?

28:30 Erika: Yeah, so Moore Wealth is kind of my love letter to what I wish I would have done when I was a younger student. And so I think one of the plights of education in the United States is a lack of financial literacy training. Like I made the joke the other day, we learned how to write cursive, but we don’t learn how to budget, which is insane because you don’t need to write cursive in life, but you do need to know how to budget if you’re going to, you know, have command over your finances. And so through Moore Wealth, we have a two-pronged approach to addressing this. Our mission is just empowerment through financial literacy. And so the first prong is our scholarships and fellowships. And so I was really excited because I finally have the income to give my money away to people who I think are deserving.

29:17 Erika: And so we established a nonprofit organization to basically grant scholarships and we had our first cohort that was awarded in February. And so that’s a lifelong dream of mine that we’re doing through Moore Wealth. And then the second prong is financial seminars, mainly targeted to high school students. So before you even get to college, take a step back and figure out what you want your life to look like and how finances are going to play a in that. And that’s what we do. So seminars and scholarships, and that’s the company, that’s the mission of Moore Wealth.

29:49 Emily: That sounds so incredible, amazing that you decided to set that up after having this journey. Tell us more about the scholarships and fellowships. Like who are the kinds of candidates you give them to, and then how does that benefit them? What do they get to do with it?

30:02 Erika: Yeah, great question. So right now we had our inaugural class that was awarded in February. And so we solicit proposals and we solicited proposals from over 50 universities. It was actually a tremendous response. That was kind of unexpected for this first year. And we awarded them to anyone who was entering into or completing a degree granting program. So we are specific in that terminology because we consider certificates and trade school or nontraditional routes of access also really important. And so it’s a very inclusive scholarship at this point. There was a Google form that’s on our webpage where people had to respond to a series of short answer questions. And then we had a blinded review that basically scored the essays based on the rubric that was established by the scholarship committee. Those were the only requirements or prerequisites for entering into the scholarship. We did have a GPA minimum of a 3.00 on a 4.0 scale. But other than that, there were no limits in terms of if the person was in graduate school, if the person was entering high school, if the person was completing their plumbing certificate, or anything else like that, we wanted to be as inclusive as possible.

31:24 Emily: And is it a grant that they then do work with, or is it just completely goes into your pocket? You can do whatever you want with it?

31:32 Erika: Yes. At this stage we awarded each of the recipients, they did have to send a follow up about how they’re going to try to implement financial literacy skills that they learned in their reflection essays into their life. And what we’re hoping to do in the future as this builds out is actually have small courses for them and potentially get them up to date with their financial literacy skills. And yeah, so currently they’ve gotten their money and they’ve reflected on financial literacy concepts. But to date, that’s it for that first cohort. So we’re looking to add additional responses and interactions with them in the future.

Best Advice for An Early-Career PhD

32:11 Emily: Incredible, wonderful. We can easily tell the passion that you have for this material in your voice. I’m so excited that you’re in the space as well. Erika, the question that I ask all of my interviewees at the end of our conversation is what is your best advice for an early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely else.

32:33 Erika: Yes. I love this question and I love the responses that you’ve gotten in the podcast so far to it. So I’ll echo what a few other people have said, which is to say that the advice that I have for you is two-pronged: if you have debt, understand what your debt is. Generate a spreadsheet, get clarity on that debt. It’s so important to do now than just ignoring it. And I know it’s hard because you’re like, “I live in denial. It’s the best thing, you know, it’s the best. Ignorance is bliss.” But getting clarity on your debt really can inform what lifestyle you need to live in the future and what lifestyle you want to live and how your finances interact with that. The second piece of advice, if you don’t have debt: contribute to a retirement savings account. This is something I wish I would have done. I didn’t have a lot of extra money, but I know that there were opportunities that I passed up because of ignorance and because of fear for how to interact with a Roth IRA, for example. And so you can never get back time. And so while you’re in grad school, I really recommend just contributing to a Roth IRA if you have any extra money.

33:41 Emily: Absolutely, absolutely. Totally co-Sign each of those pieces of advice. Wonderful. Erika, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. And I hope that the listeners will find you after this. What is your website?

33:53 Erika: Yes. My website is Moore Wealth, M O O R E W E A L T H.org. And you can also just email me or find me on Twitter. My handle is @DrErika E R I K A Moore M O O R E. And then you’ll find more information there.

34:15 Emily: Wonderful. Thank you again for joining me.

34:18 Erika: Thank you, Dr. Roberts.

Outtro

34:25 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license prerecorded workshops on taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps! The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Pursuing Your Passion in a Financially Healthy Manner

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This episode is a podcast swap! Emily’s guest is Dr. Stephanie Schuttler of Fancy Scientist. Emily and Stephanie interview one another on the financial challenges of a career in wildlife biology and how to pursue your passion while preserving financial balance and health. They discuss the necessity and prevalence of volunteer and pay-to-play experiences in wildlife biology and how to have realistic expectations about the job availability and compensation at various levels of education. Stephanie is an expert in careers in wildlife biology, but this conversation is applicable to PhDs who are following their passions into many other competitive fields.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Stephanie: In this field, so much is about those experiences. So if you really want those pay-to-play experiences, because, I mean, some of them are super cool, you could focus more on getting into a school that’s more affordable and do some of those things rather than go to a really expensive school.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 9, Episode 3, and today Dr. Stephanie Schuttler of Fancy Scientist and I are publishing a dual interview! Stephanie is a wildlife biologist-turned-science communicator and expert in careers in wildlife biology. We have a great topic: How to pursue your passion in a financially healthy manner. Stephanie gives the financial and career lay of the land for wildlife biology, a popular and competitive field that requires volunteer and pay-to-play experiences prior to being admitted to graduate school. Even completing a graduate degree in wildlife biology doesn’t necessarily lead to the type of job young people dream about when they enter the field. Sound familiar? Stephanie and I discuss how to limit the financial risk of pursuing a career in a field that you are passionate about.

I have some exciting personal news, which is that I finally received my full vaccination course against COVID-19! I have to say, it was tough to watch my friends and acquaintances who have university and hospital affiliations receive their vaccinations over the last several months while I was waiting for them to become available to my age bracket in California. But my turn finally came. I am ecstatic that my parents are visiting us this week, whom we have not seen in person since November 2019.

01:51 Emily: Prior to COVID, as you likely know, I gave in-person seminars and workshops at universities. I honestly wasn’t sure how my business would fare without being able to travel and with universities facing the uncertainty that they did early on. As it turned out, in the 2020-2021 academic year, my speaking services in the virtual format were more in demand than ever, particularly this last spring. I feel really, really fortunate about that! My calendar is now open for engagements in the 2021-2022 academic year. I am of course offering virtual events, which I assume will continue to be popular. I’m not sure if professional development events and conferences are switching back to being in person this year to any degree, but if they are and I am asked to present, I will certainly consider it. I am over the moon about how I have adjusted my offerings for early-career PhDs this year, which you can check out at PFforPhDs.com/speaking/.

02:53 Emily: First, I got honest with myself about my most popular seminar, The Graduate Student and Postdoc’s Guide to Personal Finance. The Guide is my comprehensive overview of multiple personal finance topics. I was trying to cram it into 90 minutes, but it really is a two-hour seminar with Q&A. It’s great for the end of a workday, not so much for a lunch hour.

03:15 Emily: Second, I clarified the topics for my in-depth seminars, which are financial goals, investing, debt repayment, saving, and cash flow management. Each of these seminars comes in a one-hour lecture and Q&A version or a two-hour workshop version. The workshop version includes the teaching from the lecture version plus spreadsheet templates, worksheets, and/or small group discussion prompts. These seminars work well as stand-alone events or part of a series.

03:45 Emily: Third, I took my tax seminars off my slate of offerings. This is honestly a big risk for my business because my annual tax return seminar was second to The Guide in popularity and always drew my biggest audiences. The preparation of an annual tax return and calculating estimated tax on fellowships are my audience’s most universal financial pain points.

04:10 Emily: However, I am not leaving you in the lurch with respect to tax education and assistance. Stepping back from giving live seminars on this topic actually enables me to scale the delivery of the help. In place of these live seminars, I am licensing access to my pre-recorded workshops on the same topics. I have been offering these workshops for the past several years, and I know that they are even more effective than live events in guiding graduate students and postdocs to their goal of an accurate tax return and up-to-date income tax payments on their fellowships. Please keep these workshops in mind as we draw closer to tax season for 2021. If you would like to book a virtual or in-person event with me or recommend me to your graduate school, postdoc office, or graduate student association, the best place to go is PFforPhDs.com/speaking/. From there you can learn about all my seminar offerings, read reviews from previous event hosts and attendees, view my speaking fees, and schedule a call with me to discuss your event. I look forward to partnering with you this year to deliver high-quality, high-impact financial education to the early-career PhDs at your university, in your association, or at your conference.

Book Giveaway Contest

05:29 Emily: Now onto the book giveaway contest! In June 2021 I’m giving away one copy of The Automatic Millionaire: A Powerful One-Step Plan to Live and Finish Rich by David Bach, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community Book Club selection for August 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during June will have a chance to win a copy of this book. The Automatic Millionaire was one of the first personal finance books I ever read, and it had an enormous impact on my financial mindset and behavior. The path to becoming a millionaire is not necessarily quick or easy, but it can be simple and automatic. I can absolutely credit the key strategy that this book teaches as the reason my net worth is as high as it is today. I hope this book effects a similar result for you. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at emily at PFforPhDs dot com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of June from all the entries. You can find full instructions at PFforPhDs.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Stephanie Schuttler.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

06:49 Stephanie: Hi, I am Dr. Stephanie Schuttler, and I am a wildlife biologist, and now I’ve turned a science communication entrepreneur. A brief background of myself is that I kind of stumbled into this career. I didn’t know I wanted to be a wildlife biologist until my last year in college when I decided to study abroad and I randomly chose a wildlife management program in Kenya. So that changed my life. And I knew from there that I had to go to graduate school. So I got some experience doing three different types of internships over the course of three years. And then I went to graduate school to get my PhD at the University of Missouri, where I spent close to seven years there, followed by one short postdoc and one long postdoc, lasting, probably about, honestly, seven years. Yeah, so my short postdoc was at Missouri and my long postdoc was at the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences where I got to work on a lot of camera trap stuff that I talk about today. Yeah, and now the last part is I started my own business last year. I’ve been blogging for the past few years and I officially made it a business last year where I spread knowledge about science communication, I educate people, I started kids’ programs, and then of course I help people in their wildlife biology careers.

08:20 Emily: Fantastic. What is the name of your business?

08:23 Stephanie: A Fancy Scientist.

08:25 Emily: Great. I’m really excited to speak with you, Stephanie, today because are subject is kind of, you know, the finances of pursuing a career in wildlife biology, but it’s a little bit more general than that really, because we’re really talking about how to stay sort of financially balanced and healthy while you’re pursuing a passion that is not necessarily, or immediately, lucrative. And in fact might, you know, you might be paying for, in the form of your education, you might be paying for career experiences. So that’s kind of our general topic. So even if those of you who are coming to the podcast are not in wildlife biology, like still stick around because this is going to be generalizable information.

09:03 Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. I would even add that our field can be more lucrative in terms of going to graduate school than other fields. Like I’ve heard about people who are getting their PhDs in English and their TAships get paid just so poorly. So a lot of the experience and advice here will definitely transfer over.

How People Develop a Passion for Wildlife Biology

09:25 Emily: Yeah. Let’s talk more about specifically how wildlife biology is positioned because it’s a science field, of course, which you might immediately think, oh, like you make money in science, of course. But on the other side of it, it’s a very competitive field and people follow it because of long-held passions. So let’s talk more about that. Like how do people develop their passion for wildlife biology and pursue that?

09:47 Stephanie: I think people develop it usually from a young age. That’s what happened for me. I always loved animals and I love nature. And like I said, I didn’t discover it until a career as later on. Like when you’re young, people always say, like, why don’t you become a vet if you really like animals? So I didn’t know it was a career option. Some people do, but when you track back to like, why people want to do it, it usually has to do with those experiences of being outside in nature when you’re young. And actually a lot of wildlife biologists, a lot of them start off like hunting and they just spend a lot of time outdoors. So I think that a big reason why people are so attracted to the field is that they think they will be spending a lot of time outside.

10:35 Stephanie: And this is definitely true for some careers. It depends on what level of education you have, and of course, what job you have. But in general, the more education you have, the less time you spend outside. It’s like an inverse relationship. And you know, we get really cool experiences. A lot of us get to travel. Of course, some of us get these really close interactions with animals that regular people can’t have, or even just accessing different types of places. Like some of the field sites I’ve been to would have been difficult to visit as a tourist and some of the experiences you have. So yeah, I think that’s what’s really attractive about it. And you’re right. It’s really interesting because there’s so much push for STEM education and especially getting People of Color and girls interested in STEM because our field is not very diversified.

11:33 Stephanie: And a reason to advocate for STEM careers is often actually like finances, that it’s a really financially beneficial career. But again, it totally depends on what you do, and wildlife biology is not very lucrative. And it’s just simply because there’s not a lot of money in wildlife and conservation work. A lot of our employment is nonprofits. The universities and, I mean, universities, you can definitely get paid well. And any of these jobs you can get paid well. But in general, if you think of like disease research, there’s going to be so much more money from the U.S. government and other sources to invest in like medical research than there is in saving wildlife. So, that’s really the big difference. But I think most people go into it because they love it so much. And that’s what I always said. I knew I wasn’t going to make a lot of money, but I loved it so much. So that’s why I went into it.

12:38 Emily: It’s so important to go into these kinds of career choices with your eyes wide open as to what the possibilities are, including the financial possibilities. So it sounds like people, maybe from the time they’re children, have a very like romantic idea of what this career is going to be, but the reality does not necessarily line up with that, especially as you advance further and further.

12:57 Stephanie: It’s interesting though, that you said that about like the romantic version, because I have a book, Getting a Job in Wildlife Biology: What It’s Like and What You Need to Know. And I had a review on there recently, it wasn’t a bad review, it was a four-star review, so it was good, but it was a parent that bought it for her daughter and she read it first, and with the intention of getting it to her daughter. And after she read it, she was kind of like, I’ll leave it up to my daughter to read. And her review was all about how realistic I was. And, and that’s exactly why I wrote it because people have this really romantic view of what wildlife biology is, like myself growing up, I saw Jane Goodall. And I mean, Jane Goodall, isn’t really considered a wildlife biologist. She’s more of a primatologist, but still that’s what you imagine it to look like, or Steve Irwin. And the reality is you’re not doing those types of things. So I pride myself on telling the truth, and I don’t want to dissuade anyone from entering this field. I just want them to know like what it’s like going into it.

Volunteer and Pay-to-Play: Are They Really Required?

14:01 Emily: So, one thing that I learned from our prior conversations is that in your field, it’s very common for people to have to do volunteer experiences or even pay-to-play experiences, to get into graduate school, to get a job, to advance. And this is not necessarily as common in other areas. So could you please tell us more about what, you know, what does pay-to-play mean? What are the kinds of volunteer experiences that people may be required to have? And are they really required?

14:30 Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. This is a really hot topic right now. I personally think that you cannot get into graduate school without having some sort of experience. And in order to get that first paid experience, honestly, you really need experience for that. And you can, I would say you can get it in college if you volunteer with a lab and you get college credit for it. So that’s essentially not totally volunteering. And there are some work-study programs in colleges as well, but really to get your first experience, you need to volunteer. And that’s just the unfortunate reality of it. And this is a big problem because it discourages diversity from our field. So, I’m in no way, like advocating for these experiences. I just feel like that’s the reality of the situation. So there’s lots of experiences. And even our museum, when we had interns in our lab, we did have money for some of them.

15:27 Stephanie: And I constantly applied for grants to get money to pay interns, but they don’t come through. So either like I would have people email me and be like, I’m so interested in your research. Can I help you out? Or I would have a lot of research to do, and I would come across people and offer them experiences to help me with this. And there are exchanges in other ways. Like I write them letters of recommendations and I invite them to be on journal publications and stuff like that. But yeah, we can’t afford to pay for everyone. So it’s hard to deny people experiences who want them. But also, the pay-to-play thing is that some experiences are so desirable that they can afford to charge for them. And I do think there are some sort of scammy experiences out there where they profit off of it, but there are also legit scientists who are working in another country and they have to pay for the field site and the food costs and things like that.

16:35 Stephanie: So I’ve seen job advertisements where you get to maybe go to like South Africa for a summer and you have to pay to stay there. And they mention that it just covers the field costs and they’re not making money off of it, but still, I know a big reason why I got certain opportunities was because of my experience in Kenya. I had a study abroad program and an internship in Kenya. And Kenya was, it really was volunteering because I did get paid, but I got paid a Kenyan salary. And then I did have to pay for half of my airfare. So it ended up being a year where I didn’t make anything. And yeah, if I didn’t have those experiences, then I would have not had like my graduate school experience of studying forest elephants. So if somebody who comes from a financially disadvantaged background really wants to do something like work internationally, honestly, it’s really tough because those experiences are more desirable and people are willing to pay for them.

17:42 Emily: Yeah. You outlined a couple of reasons why these experiences exist. It really sounds like the field is in a bind. There’s not enough funding coming in for all the work that needs to be done, sort of from above, but from below, from the people coming up the ranks, there is an eagerness for people to do the work, even if it’s on a volunteer basis, even if they have to pay out of pocket for it. But it sounds like this just comes back to a funding squeeze, right? And the field being so popular and competitive. Those things combined have set up the conditions for this system to develop. And I agree with you. It sounds nightmarish, actually, for someone who doesn’t come from a financially advantaged background. And it’s a little bit like, you know, in the recent, I don’t know, last decade or two, there’s been so many more conversations about unpaid internships and the elimination of unpaid internships in most fields because they’re not great for anybody. Especially people who, you know, can’t afford to do them. But it sounds like that hasn’t quite touched the field of wildlife biology yet. Because these are essentially unpaid internships like on steroids, because you actually have to, in some cases, pay to access the site or what have you.

18:53 Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s, like I said, that’s a huge conversation right now. And I think it’s especially difficult for nonprofit organizations because, you know, they obviously always need more funding. And they have been under attack, like posting unpaid internships. And I understand both sides. Like I understand that people need to get paid for their time, but I also don’t think it solves the diversity problem because if you’re just taking experiences away in general, then anything that is available is going to be so, so, so competitive. So it’s like a lose-lose situation.

Financial Risks in Pursuing a Wildlife Biology Career

19:32 Emily: Yeah. It definitely sounds like that. Okay. So we’ve kind of talked about the downsides to the field of kind of relying on these volunteer and pay-to-play experiences in the pipeline, at the beginning of the pipeline. To get into graduate school, you need to have some kind of experience. To get that first experience that maybe you get paid, well, you have to have an unpaid experience before that point. There are downsides to the field of like losing out on having great scientists, budding scientists who could be part of the field, maybe being turned away for financial reasons. What are the financial risks that are posed to an individual who tries to pursue a career in wildlife biology?

20:06 Stephanie: I think, I mean, just going into debt or living paycheck to paycheck constantly, that’s like super common in our field, but I know many people who have gone into debt for these like pay-to-play experiences or to do a volunteer experience, but they don’t have the means to cover themselves financially while they’re doing that experience. And it affects your entire life. The opportunities, I guess, like they kind of go away, but they manifest in different ways. So like once you get your PhD, well actually after your master’s too, like I talked about my friend, Rebecca, a lot of times you have these temporary opportunities, and it’s really difficult to get things lined up financially. And it’s a very demanding career. There are always things that you could be doing for your career, especially once you get to like the science route of doing more research-based things, then you are going to want to be working on your publications and things like that to get you that next job. So you don’t necessarily have the time to be able to like take on another job. So I mean, it’s really just that you have the potential to go into debt. People do go into debt, and then they don’t have the finances saved to be able to keep going, in the future, if opportunities don’t line up.

21:40 Emily: Yeah. This does remind me of the general like pursuit of the tenure-track in some fields where you need a PhD to get, and your goal is to get, a faculty position, but the employment opportunities, if you don’t end up, you know, landing that faculty position, are non-existent, very rare, not very lucrative. And so it’s like, yeah, if the stars completely align and you get that job that you’re going for, it all works out. But for most people who pursue that, it’s not going to work out. And so you have to realize that going in, it doesn’t mean you can’t like, you know, shoot for the stars and everything, but you need to have some kind of nets and backup plans and safety. Because the stats are that a tenure-track position is not going to work out for the vast majority of people who pursue one. And so it seems like there’s, you know, an analogy here with the field, the career in wildlife biology,

22:33 Stephanie: Do you see any additional downsides or risks?

Debt and Opportunity Cost: Loss of Compound Interest

22:38 Emily: I mean, mentioning, going into debt like you did is absolutely perfect. But to me there’s another layer on top of that, which is the loss of opportunity to get compound interest working for you. So if you go for many years in your twenties and into your thirties, maybe doing temporary work and underpaid work, and maybe you’re accumulating some debt, or even if you’re not, but you’re not doing anything like on the saving, investing front to get ahead with your finances, then that’s lost time. That decade or so is lost time. And it’s possible to make up for lost time, but you just have to save so much more later. But what if you end up, maybe in your thirties, in a job that pays, as you mentioned before, $50,000 a year, when you were hoping for something that paid more or was more stable or something like that? Like that’s where you are, and that’s what you have to live off of and save off of after that point and still try to make up for that lost time. So I think that people can be financially successful at all different kinds of salary levels, but like we were talking about earlier, you just have to be realistic about what the opportunities are, the salary opportunities are in the field that you’re pursuing, and also in your backup plans, if that primary plan doesn’t work out that well. So yeah, the loss of time to get compound interest working for you is the main one that I see there.

23:48 Stephanie: And I think that people in our field don’t think about that stuff at all and even, or I know they don’t think about that stuff at all. And even like talking about the loss of time with your first starting salary. You really don’t have at least a good first starting salary. I had a starting salary in graduate school, but like how most jobs work is you get your first job, and that’s your starting salary. And then that’s like the bar for you to negotiate a higher salary every job that you get. So for myself, when I graduated from my PhD, I was, what, thirties, close to 30. And you know, my husband who is an electrical engineer, he had been in his career for, for several years already. So not only are we getting paid little when we’re starting out, but we’re starting out later in age.

24:45 Stephanie: And another thing is people don’t do retirement investments either. So my dad grew up poor. His dad died when he was younger, and he had his brothers to take care of. So he was always like financially worried, and he always had us read financial books and stuff like that. So I’ve had a retirement account since legally you can have one, I think maybe 16 or 18. But yeah, like we’re not taught that. Like, you’re right. Like nobody’s talking about this stuff. And they, like, my friends would be like, well, I’ll get it through my job, when I get my first job, but some of my friends didn’t get their first jobs until they were close to their forties, and your retirement compounds. And that’s really where the money comes from. So if you are waiting a while to start that, then you’re missing out on a lot of that income compounding.

25:42 Emily: Yeah. And I think, again, to generalize, like this is something that I see with graduate students all the time, postdocs all the time is that there’s an optimism about what the future salaries are going to be post-PhD, post postdoc. And I certainly have the same optimism for them. But the other thing that happens as you age, generally speaking, is that your life gets more expensive in a variety of ways. You know, maybe you buy a house, maybe you have a child, maybe you have to take care of aging parents or other family members, like, so even if you do see a post-PhD, jump in salary in whatever field that you’re in, it might not go as far as you were hoping that it would. And so to me, my attitude is more like, you know, work with what you have now, that is, try as best you can to live a sort of financially balanced lifestyle and do some of that retirement investing or paying off debt or whatever it is that your goal is while you still have a lower salary, while you’re still in graduate school. And yes, like I do hope that that higher salary comes, the permanent job comes and it will all be much easier later, but just in case it’s not, let’s get started now so that you have that time, as we were talking about for, you know, your money to compound, or at least your debt to not compound as much.

26:54 Stephanie: Absolutely.

Commercial

26:57 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Heads up, fellows: The next quarterly estimated tax payment deadline is Tuesday, June 15, 2021! This one always catches me by surprise because quarter two, strangely, is only two months long, while quarter four is four months long. Yet, a full quarter’s payment is due on June 15th. If you aren’t having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary and haven’t yet filled out the Estimated Tax Worksheet in Form 1040-ES, now is the time to do so. The worksheet will tell you how much you can expect your tax liability to be this year and whether you are required to pay estimated tax. If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please join my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that postbacs, grad students, and postdocs have about estimated tax, such as what to do when you switch on or off of fellowship in the middle of a calendar year. Go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax to learn more about and join the workshop. Now back to our interview.

Advice for Pursuing a Financially Risky Career

28:13 Stephanie: Okay. So knowing that this is a financially risky career, what do you think, like, what’s your advice to people who want to pursue it in like, they’re absolutely sure they want to do this and maybe they don’t have a financial safety net or they don’t come from a really, really wealthy background? What can they do?

28:33 Emily: I think the first thing to acknowledge is that you, as an individual, are a whole person and that you have needs and desires that are perhaps independent of this career in wildlife biology that you want to pursue, or any kind of competitive and perhaps not lucrative kind of career. And what I mean by that is that I would love for you to pursue like your career kind of passion, but just as you’re doing that, keep in mind that you still have needs as a person. You have financial needs, you have relational needs, you have spiritual needs, health needs, all these things matter as well. And I think there’s a tendency for people, especially when they’re younger and in their twenties and so forth, to drive hard at their career goals at the expense of some of these other areas of life. And it will catch up to you, eventually. You will reach age 30 or age 40 and realize that you have some deficits or dearths in these other areas, because you were trying to sort of suppress your needs and desires in those areas for so long to pursue this career.

29:35 Emily: So I don’t think that’s healthy and don’t do it. So try your best. Right? And so we’re going to talk about the finances, but there’s all these other areas of life as well. So don’t forget that you’re a whole human and you’re more than just your future career or job in wildlife biology. So that’s kind of the first thing to keep in mind. So, as we’re talking about sort of financial health and financial wholeness, as you pursue these careers, I do think you need to create your own safety net and your own financial security and backup plans as you go. And so that may mean that it will take you a little bit longer to get to graduate schoo, for example, if that’s like your next goal. Maybe you might take an extra year instead of, you know, taking a one or two year gap, take a three or four year gap between finishing undergrad and that graduate degree, for example. And that’s to build up more of your own financial security in the meantime.

30:25 Emily: And so one of the things we talked about earlier, these pay-to-play or volunteer experiences, is it possible for example, for you to plan around that and say, I’m going to have a summer job? Maybe it’s not even a job, I’m going to have a summer experience, and it’s going to cost this much money, or I’m going to be paid this much, but my lifestyle needs are this much. And how can you save in advance for that? And what kind of job can you have when you’re not actively engaged with these experiences? How can you pursue a job and a career that will allow you to have the experiences, but still give you some financial stability in the meantime? And one of the things I end up talking a lot about, and that I’ve learned a lot about from people I’ve interviewed on my podcast is regarding money mindset and limiting beliefs.

Navigate Limiting Beliefs

31:06 Emily: And so a limiting belief that someone in the field of wildlife biology might hear, and they might even get this from your work, again, the realism, is I can only ever have a temporary job and I can’t have a job the other seven or eight months of the year, because that’s not in my field, whatever. But maybe there is a way for you to build a job or an income or a career in that part of the year and still have that balance where you want to do, you know, these special experiences in the summer or the spring, or what have you, but still be making money in the other part of the year. And honestly, I think one of the most accessible ways is what you and I are now pursuing, which is entrepreneurship. So maybe there’s a way to have, you know, set up your own stream of income.

31:45 Emily: Maybe you work on it more intensely in one part of the year and less intensely in the other part of the year. And you can create that balance for yourself to still allow you to pursue the experiences in the career that you want to have, but still be making money in the other part of a year or a little bit, you know, while you’re having those experiences still. So that’s one idea. The other one is about this debt, you know, either going to have experiences or on the flip side, maybe not paying down student loan debt that you’ve accumulated in the past. I mean, we’ve had a student loan debt crisis that’s been building and building ahead of steam for a long time, but especially in the last decade. And, you know, in the last decade, I think many people have come to realize, you know, your student loans, your education, especially at the bachelor’s level is not necessarily an investment.

32:30 Emily: It’s not automatically an investment. You can’t pursue any bachelor’s at any price and, you know, be sure that that’s going to pay off. Same thing for graduate degrees. You know, your home is not always an investment. There are things that used to feel safe that used to give you a path to the middle class that are not there, they’re not guaranteed any longer. And so I think you have to be really, like, in thinking about pay-to-play experiences as an extension of student loan debt. So like I’m taking out student loan debt to pursue my education. I’m taking out some kind of personal loan or consumer debt to pursue this experience that I want to have to get into graduate school. You can think about them sort of analogously. And so one rule of thumb that works for student loan debt that maybe you could extend to, if you’re going into debt for these experiences in wildlife biology, is don’t take out more debt than one year, your first-year starting salary.

33:20 Emily: That’s like the rule of thumb for an undergraduate degree. And so if you’re, you know, going into a little bit better or forgoing salary to pursue these volunteer pay-to-play experiences, can you keep the debt level down to one year of your current salary or lower? Is that possible? So like, so yes, pursue these experiences, but make sure you’re not giving yourself carte blanche, right? To spend and go into as much debt as you might want to. You’re sort of putting some checks and balances on yourself along the way to make sure that you’re not getting in too far over your head.

Consider the Cost of Your Education

33:56 Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. And actually one of my big, I have a lot of advice for people, something I think that people should do is not worry about the school so much. Like a lot of students are super obsessed with like, what’s the best graduate program or what’s the best college to go to. And I honestly think that students should really, especially at the college level, focus on getting in the school that’s going to cost them the least, because like you mentioned your degree doesn’t necessarily pay off. If you’re going to invest, you know, $120,000 for a college degree and you can get the same result with one that’s going to cost you $10,000. I mean, I actually regretted for a long time, my experience because I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t know what I wanted to be.

34:49 Stephanie: An, I even applied poorly to schools. I applied to like only Ivy league schools because that’s what I knew. And the only schools I got into were my local state school and other schools that cost like $30,000 a year or a semester. And I was like, okay, I’m just going to start from my state school because I don’t know what I’m doing. And then it also felt weird to dorm at my state school, which is like 20 minutes down the road from me. So I stayed with my parents and I regret not having the college experience, but I also love that I don’t have debt and that it was, I mean, I paid, I think a thousand dollars a semester for school. So in the long run it definitely was worth it.

35:34 Stephanie: And in this field so much is about those experiences. So if you really want those pay-to-play experiences, because I mean, some of them are super cool. You could focus more on getting into a school that’s more affordable and do some of those things rather than go to a really expensive school. And this is true for graduate school, too. And graduate school in science, you do get paid, you get a stipend, but you get paid different amounts according to the different schools and even according to the different programs. So I was actually not in the wildlife biology program for my PhD, or in the department. I was in the biological sciences department, and they had a fellowship. So I was paid a lot more and I didn’t have to TA. And that played a huge role in me deciding to do that as opposed to another program where I would have to TA and get paid less.

36:31 Emily: I think that’s a great point. Both at the graduate and the undergraduate level. It’s more about what is the actual work that you could be doing? Who can you be working with? Rather than maybe the name of the school. And of course the finances come into play as well. Because again, I think my basic point here is like shore up security for yourself as you go as best you can to keep you on this route, as long as you want to be on it in pursuit of a career in wildlife biology. So that if you get to the end, let’s say of your PhD and you realize, okay, I can get the permanent job. I’ve achieved all my goals. Everything is wonderful. Well, you have some good, you know, financial, a nest egg behind you perhaps, or at least not as much debt as you could have been in.

37:15 Emily: That would be great. But if you get to that point and you say, Nope, I’m going to exit this career now. I’m not going to have the type of job that I thought I would have. I’m going to have some other type of job. At least you won’t have the financial regret behind you of, oh my gosh, I pursued this school, that school, they didn’t pay me well enough. I spent too much on this experience. Yeah. I think what you said is perfect is like focus more on the experiences. If you want to go for, you know, a less expensive college education, but save your dollars for some pay-to-play experiences that are really high impact, then that makes a lot of strategic sense to me.

FIRE: Financial Independence, Retire Early

37:45 Stephanie: Yeah. And another route, I think we talked about this in our chat, you talked about an acronym FIRE.

37:51 Emily: Yeah. So FIRE stands for Financial Independence Retire Early, or Early Retirement.

37:57 Stephanie: Yeah. So you could either do that or do a sort of hybrid model. And I interviewed somebody who did something kind of similar to that, inadvertently. He didn’t, I mean, he didn’t retire early, but he had 20 years in a corporation that was a really good job. And he participated, he volunteered in the Citizen Science programs on the weekends and in his spare time. And his corporation actually paid for him to go back to school. So he did get a degree in environmental sciences. But when he was finished and on the job market, he got the second job he applied for. And I could not believe that I was like, oh my gosh. Wow. And it was because of those volunteer experiences, he had so much experience that he was like leading groups and organizing events and stuff like that. So that all translated really well.

38:48 Stephanie: So you could start off in a more lucrative career and volunteer with conservation organizations, with Citizen Science, and make enough money then where you can take a less lucrative career. Or if you’re a real go-getter in today’s world, like, I mean, there’s really not a financial limit to like what you can do online and with entrepreneurship and stuff like that. Like, it is tough to do, but it’s, I mean, there’s so many like millionaires who are six-figure earners from selling courses online, and in practical stuff, too. Like I remember I was listening to this one podcast, this woman, she had a podcast all about goats and she made six figures just from selling a course on how to raise backyard goats. And she had like, she had like different courses, too. So it’s like, you know, you just don’t think like, oh wow, like you can make a lot of money off of information and goats, but you can. So there’s a lot of opportunities out there.

Combining FIRE with Passion Careers

39:52 Emily: Yeah. What I think is really interesting about the FIRE movement and combined with like these sort of passion careers, whether it’s wildlife biology or whether it’s maybe some other things you want to get a PhD in. So if, you know, the most intense people in the FIRE movement, the goal is to retire in about 10 years, not retire necessarily, but become financially independent in about 10 years. That would be like a fast goal. So you get out of college when you’re 22, you know, by 32, if you’re really intense about it and chose the right career, maybe you were an engineer or something like that. You could be retired by that point or, you know, financially independent, optional to retire at that point. Now that is a route to free up the entire rest of your life from age 32, to whatever, to do anything that you want.

40:37 Emily: As long as your lifestyle expenses don’t creep up to the point they exceed your investments’ ability to support you. And so that is where you could spend the next 50, 70, a hundred years of your career working in wildlife biology in any kind of capacity that you can achieve knowing that your finances are already taken care of. And that’s a very unconventional route, right? But I think it’s something that maybe more people should consider if their passion is in a field where it’s so difficult and so competitive to get a full-time position. And, you know, I think it also goes back to the realism discussion we’re having earlier. You know, maybe there’s something about wildlife biology or whatever field that you’re in that you would like that romantic version, but you are not so enamored with the reality of having a career in that field version, and maybe becoming financially independent allows you to experience the romantic versions of the career, you know, of rather the field to a great extent without having to commit to having to earn in the career and doing maybe the work that’s not quite as exciting to you.

41:43 Emily: And so that’s, I don’t know, it’s a very like interesting idea. I actually did meet someone one time at a financial bloggers’ conference who had reached financial independence in his early thirties through, whatever, he’s like a finance guy or something. And he was telling me, oh yeah, I’m considering going back and getting my PhD in some completely unrelated area because I can do whatever I want now, essentially. It doesn’t matter if I get a stipend or not. I can support myself. He can pursue anything he likes. And so I’ve never really like discussed this idea with anyone in terms of PhDs before, but I think it’s, I don’t know. It’s not the most outlandish thing.

Wildlife Bio: Career or Lifestyle?

42:19 Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. And I actually, I mention this in the last chapter of my book is, like you said, maybe you don’t want it as a career, too. And maybe that’ll actually be more satisfying to you. So I had this talk with this very prominent biologist and he was talking about his friends, how like they’re traveling all over the world and showing him all these cool pictures and all these cool places that they’ve been to. And one of the countries that he said was a country that he does a lot of work in. And I was like, you work there, you’re like always traveling there. And he’s like, yeah, but I am in like conference rooms, I’m in meetings. I’m not going to see like this beautiful waterfall or go to the beaches. So again, it might be that romantic version of like, once you get higher up with your education, you’re going to be doing like more administrative work.

43:10 Stephanie: And you’re going to be writing scientific papers and writing grants and stuff like that. And, to be honest, that’s sitting behind a desk writing. So I just want people to like really understand what it’s like and what they’re getting into. And, yeah, like, if you’re really driven because you want to travel or have cool experiences with animals, there are Citizen Science vacations, Earth Watch does this, that you can pay for that give you those opportunities. Like you can pay to work with a sea turtle biologist and help him tag turtles or help them tagged hurdles. And so you can still have these experiences. But you’re not the one leading them, which actually might be nice because then you don’t have to worry about like all the logistics of setting everything up, and yeah. And managing people and things like that.

44:03 Emily: Yeah. I love that idea. And it’s just kind of thinking outside the box, right? Like how can I get to have this lifestyle that I want? Does it have to be my career, or can it be something I do on the side as you’re building a career in another area? Or I’ve retired from my career. And so now I can do it afterwards. I think that’s a really exciting idea that you can be in wildlife biology in more ways than just a full-time professional scientist.

44:32 Stephanie: You’re so right, too, about your, your life choices changing when you get older. I talk to a lot of young people who are like, I don’t need to live in a big house. Or maybe not necessarily live in a big house, but you do want more things as you grow up. Like you want more stability and things like that. You don’t want to be moving around all the time. And like, even myself, I didn’t want to have children, but yeah, like I want to be stable and I want to stay put and not going from here to there all the time.

45:02 Emily: Yeah. What I often repeat on my podcast is money gives you options. And so really what you’re doing when you, for instance, take out a bunch of student loan debt and then go into even more debt for these, like, pay-to-play experiences and eventually go into graduate school. And you’re there for a long time. And then, you know, all the things that you might have to do to get this final career that you are going for, if all that while you’re just accumulating debt and you’re not putting money into retirement, you’re basically hamstringing yourself into this career has to work out, or I am sunk, you know? And instead if you try to pursue it, but in a more balanced manner in terms of finances and other areas of life, you can get to that point, maybe when you’re done with your PhD and say, okay, I have options. I can still pursue this career that I’ve been going for. I can get another type of job because you have built up some financial stability along the way. So it gives you options. You don’t feel like you’re stuck in just the one type of job that you’ve been going for that whole time, which might not even be available to you.

46:06 Stephanie: Absolutely.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

46:08 Emily: Okay. Well, as we’re wrapping up the interview, Stephanie, one thing that I ask all of my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

46:18 Stephanie: I think probably the best is, and this is where I always tell people to start out in this career, is to look at the jobs out there now that they ultimately want. And I have a tool on my website for this it’s called the Job Tracker. And you basically just like write down, or you copy and paste, like what jobs you like, how much they pay, what your education is. And then, in my course, I actually, I also have a budget planner too. And like, see if you can afford that career and see if it works out to be the type of lifestyle that you want. So really like copy the salary and the location, and look up houses in that area and how much they cost, and see if this fits into your lifestyle. But again, like really get an idea of like, where you want to end up. So there’s no surprises and you can pivot more easily along the way if you decide, okay, I love this, but I really want to make more money. Which is okay, because, like I said, some of these jobs, they pay very little and it can be difficult to live with those jobs. I knew somebody who had what other students thought was like an absolute dream job, but she was just so sick of not making money.

47:38 Emily: Absolutely. I love that advice. It goes along with the general theme of like being realistic. Okay. So where can listeners find you, Stephanie?

47:49 Stephanie: They can go to fancyscientist.com or just Google, fancy scientist I’ll come up and they can contact me any way. I check all my messages. I’m happy to answer their questions. And I love hearing from people.

48:02 Emily: And what is the title of your book?

48:05 Stephanie: Getting a Job in Wildlife Biology: What It’s Like and What You Need to Know.

48:10 Emily: Great.

48:11 Stephanie: Very blunt. Well, thanks so much for doing this. I had a good time talking to you and I learned a lot.

48:17 Emily: Thank you. It’s exciting to me to learn about a new field and kind of wrap my mind around like particular financial challenges within that field.

Outro

48:26 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me! 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD Found Financial Peace through Pursuing FIRE

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. 50 of By 50 Journey, a federal employee who is pursuing financial independence and early retirement (FIRE). Dr. 50 came to the US after finishing college, but worked minimum wage jobs while she learned English until she could apply to PhD programs. She worked full-time to self-fund her PhD over six years. Ultimately the PhD was a game-changer for Dr. 50’s income, and within three or four years of finishing she was earning a six-figure salary. However, a higher salary was not the solution to her family’s financial problems. Dr. 50 describes her emotions at their financial low point, when they completed their debt repayment journey, and upon discovering the FIRE movement. Dr. 50 concludes the interview with an incredible insight regarding financial struggle and striving.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

PhD FIRE

Teaser

00:00 Dr. 50: And one day I was like, okay, this is it. I am making a six-figure salary and I couldn’t even afford a lunch at the cafeteria. And it’s like a wake-up call. I need to do something. We need to do something.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode 16, and today my guest is Dr. 50 of By 50 Journey, a federal employee who is pursuing financial independence and early retirement: FIRE. Dr. 50 came to the U.S. after finishing college, but worked minimum wage jobs while she learned English until she could apply for PhD programs. She worked full-time to self-fund her PhD over six years. Ultimately, the PhD was a game-changer for Dr. 50’s income, and within three or four years of finishing, she was earning a six-figure salary. However, a higher salary was not the solution to her family’s financial problems. Dr. 50 describes her emotions at their financial low point when they completed their debt repayment journey. And upon discovering the FIRE movement. Listen through to the end for an incredible insight from Dr. 50 regarding financial struggle and striving.

01:28 Emily: We’ve just passed decision day, April 15th, so I’d like to extend a massive congratulations to everyone who committed to a graduate program for fall 2021. This is an incredibly exciting period of time. As you dream about and plan this new phase of your life, keep your finances top of mind. You’ve already made the biggest financial decision of your graduate career by one, choosing to attend graduate school, and two, committing to a specific stipend and location. The next biggest decisions are housing and transportation, which presumably you will lock in over the next few months. Before making those big commitments, I recommend that you sketch a budget to figure out how much you can afford while ideally maintaining some kind of savings rate. If you would like some help with that process, join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. Inside the Community, you’ll find my How to Draft a Budget From a Distance webinar and custom spreadsheet. We also have a forum and monthly live calls where we can chat more about your specific situation. I would love to assist you with this process in any way that I can.

Book Giveaway Contest

02:44 Emily: Now, it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In April, 2021, I’m giving away one copy of Walden on Wheels by Ken Ilgunas, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for June 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during April will have a chance to win a copy of this book. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at emily@pfforphds.com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of April from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. The podcast received a review recently titled exactly what I was looking for. Quote, having read a lot of scattered news articles and attending college workshops, I still felt a need for expert advice on investment strategies for international students. I stumbled upon this podcast while doing my weekly finance research, and I can say that Dr. Roberts does a phenomenal job at it. PF for PhDs is one of the few resources I could find which has got something for every grad student trying to figure out personal finances. Highly recommend it to incoming and current students alike. End quote. Thank you so much for this review. I am focusing more energy in 2021 on serving international students, postdocs, and workers, and I’m so glad that is coming across. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. 50 from By 50 Journey.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:19 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. 50. She actually goes by Mrs. 50 on her blog, By 50 Journey, which is a FIRE journey blog. However, she does have a PhD. So, we’re going to call her Dr. 50 today. She has an incredible story to tell us about coming to the U.S. As an immigrant, speaking no English, having no money, and you know, pursuing a PhD and ultimately being on this path to financial independence and early retirement. So, really delighted to get her story today. Dr. 50, welcome to the podcast. And will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

04:55 Dr. 50: Thank you so much. That was a really great introduction. Yes. That was a long time ago. I would say like over two decades, I came to this country and I had nothing. I mean, it’s nothing. So, I was trying to get a job, but I didn’t get any, because of course I didn’t speak any English. I couldn’t even answer a simple question like, how are you, what are you doing? Because I could understand, but I couldn’t express myself. So meaning trying to get a job, even a simple job. I couldn’t get it. So I was thinking, ah, this is, this is tougher than I thought it would be to start spending my life in a new country with my new husband. And I was trying, okay, let’s go back to grad school. That way I have friends. I have professor, I have, everybody so I can practice on my English. Because back in the day I didn’t have any friends, I don’t have anybody, except just for my husband. Right?

05:59 Dr. 50: And years later, I got accepted into grad school. I was so happy, but on the back of my mind, Oh well, okay, now here I am, I didn’t have any money. I didn’t have any financial support. And then I was trying to get funding, trying to get an assistantship, fellowship, whatever that was available. I didn’t get it. So, my first semester I used my credit card to pay for the tuition. I was, Oh, this is not going well. I have to do it better. So I was trying to find a job on campus. But as a student, we couldn’t work more than 20 hours. I said, this is not going to be enough to pay for everything. And not even the rent. Finally, in my second year of grad school, I got a full-time job which was wonderful. I was so grateful and I worked my way and then time flies.

07:07 Dr. 50: I got my master’s and PhD in six years because I was like, okay, let’s get this done as soon as possible so I can get a job and make real money. Right after I finished my PhD, I got a very great offer, even though I finished in the year 2008. So, everybody knows 2008 was the financial crisis. So I denied that job offer. I don’t know why, maybe because of the years, years, and the struggle of the grad school, I didn’t want to get that job because it was so stressful. So I accepted, I was a post-doc for a year and a half. During that time I was trying to find a real job. So I got a great job offer again. And then I got that job. And then my income was increased significantly. I would say, like triple. But unfortunately that job, it was in the city and I was traveling 90% of the time.

08:11 Dr. 50: And I just had a baby. I was happy with my job, but the work-life balance was not great. So I quit my dream job and then I had to find a job that’s not in the city. And then I got that with a negotiation that I negotiated with them. I managed to get the same salary that I had in the city, but I would live in the country. So, which is great. So, the struggle that was in grad school and a great job offer and determination and then patience. So I would say this is from, didn’t speak English to have a career that I wanted because of my PhD, and I was really happy. So, I’m ready to go on to the next level.

Pre-Grad School Finances

09:12 Emily: Yeah. I want to tease out a couple other pieces of that stories so that I understand it correctly. And thank you for giving us that like overarching view of how your career has evolved. So, it sounds like when you came to the U.S., it was a few years in between when you first arrived and when you were accepted to graduate school, is that right?

09:33 Dr. 50: That is correct.

09:35 Emily: And so, were you ultimately able to find some kind of job? I know that you said that you struggled at first, but how were the finances for you and your husband during that pre-grad school period?

09:46 Dr. 50: Yeah, I had odd jobs washing dishes. I answered the phone. I worked in a Chinese restaurant. I worked in a factory. I worked night shift. I did everything that I could do to earn money. And back in the day, it was the minimum wage. I believe it was $4.75 an hour. And yes, we were struggling before I got accepted into school. Even though after I accepted into grad school, we were still struggling because okay, now I spend my time studying during the day. I didn’t have time to earn money, so it was zero, but yeah. And using credit cards to pay for living expenses, even to pay for rent.

10:33 Emily: Yeah. So, it sounds like you very clearly identified the PhD, having that credential, as the path out of these minimum wage positions, is that correct?

10:44 Dr. 50: Yes. Yes. Definitely.

PhD as a Path to Professorship

10:47 Emily: If you had stayed in your home country, do you think you would have pursued a PhD?

10:53 Dr. 50: Yes, because before I met my husband I had a fellowship lined up for me, which they would pay for my school expenses, tuition, and living expenses. And yeah, I was about to go to doing my masters at the time, but decision between, okay, stay here and pursue my dream of becoming a professor or go there and be with my husband, and the love all my life. So, it’s a life-changing decision.

11:28 Emily: I am glad to hear, though, that you were already oriented in that direction. You were already planning on doing the PhD. It’s just, you decided to do it in a different country and had to take a couple steps back and learn the language and so forth. But you still got to, in terms of doing the PhD, you still got to that same goal.

11:44 Dr. 50: Yes. I always wanted to be a professor. A university professor.

Making Ends Meet in Grad School

11:49 Emily: And one other question I had about kind of the finances during graduate school. You said that you initially started out financing, you know, you weren’t funded, so you were financing it through consumer debt, and ultimately you got, I think you said a full-time job, right? So was it the case that your PhD was never funded? You didn’t have an assistantship or a fellowship, but you worked aside from doing the PhD?

12:10 Dr. 50: Yes. I worked 20 hours at the university dining hall in the morning from 3:30 to eight o’clock. And then during the day I worked as a lab technician for 40 hours. So yeah, my week was full. I would get up at three o’clock and then wouldn’t come home until 11 at night.

12:38 Emily: So you were working 60 hours at jobs plus the PhD work?

12:45 Dr. 50: Yes. And I enrolled full-time because if I did it part-time, it would drag me to eight or 10 years. I couldn’t afford that. That’s too long.

12:57 Emily: Wow. Incredible. I can’t, I can’t even fathom how you got through that. And you said it took six years, right?

13:07 Dr. 50: Yeah. It took six years, a master’s for two years and PhD for four years.

13:11 Emily: And you kept up that, I mean, I’m just like flabbergasted, you kept up that schedule the whole time?

13:16 Dr. 50: Yes. And finally, when I did my research, I quit my dining hall job because it was, Oh, it’s early. And I had that job because I got free meals. So, to save money, so I got free meals for five days. So, that’s awesome. Finally, I didn’t have time to do my research, so I quit that job and then I just kept my full-time job.

Post-PhD Finances

13:45 Emily: Yeah. I think we’re getting a real picture of how your finances were, but what it took, the work it took to keep yourself afloat, you and your husband afloat, during that time. And you know, clearly why you had the motivation to do the PhD. So, I’m really glad to hear that element of the story. Thank you. And so, you told us a little bit earlier about, you know, having the postdoc position and then, you know, taking a couple of different jobs, post-PhD. Did you want to add anything in there about how your income has been or anything like that?

14:20 Dr. 50: Yeah, sure. So, during my grad school years, the part-time one was the dining hall one. That was minimum paid. So, it was like, six or $7 an hour for 20 hours. So, that wasn’t that much. My full-time job, I worked as a lab technician that was $15 an hour. Back in the day, that was, I’d say 15 years ago, that was a lot for me. So, I’d say that I earned the most was $34,000 a year. That was awesome. That’s great money for us. That allowed us to buy a house, this would be our first house, and I didn’t have to worry much about my school tuition. And during that time I was able to talk to my boss, have them pay for a couple of classes. So, that was great. And so, post-PhD I had a postdoc and that doubled my income. I earned $63,000. That was in 2009. I graduated in 2008. So, it was double wage. Our finances were starting to get a lot, a lot better.

15:42 Emily: I just want to ask there, what kind of setting was that postdoc position in? Because that sounds like a pretty well-paid one, especially for that time.

15:52 Dr. 50: I was in the federal agency.

15:55 Emily: Okay. Gotcha.

Money Mindset: Salary Negotiation

Dr. 50 (15:56): And I, again, I negotiated my salary. I always had this mindset, even though with the federal, we have to follow rules and although certain staff follow certain salary level. Yeah. I negotiated. So, actually, it started at, I believe back in the day, was like $51,000 and I was able to get $63,000.

16:23 Emily: I think that’s a really great tip for anyone else who’s looking to apply for federal jobs because you have the, it’s the GS system, is that right?

16:31 Dr. 50: Yeah, it’s the GS system. Even though you’ve been told, okay, this position will give you the GS level this or accept this, you can always negotiate with them. Even though they have the fixed table to follow, you always can negotiate. Yeah. So, after the postdoc, I got a really great job offer in the city. This is in New York city. I was like, Oh my God, New York city, that’s a high cost of living. But it was a job of my dreams. So, I took it and my salary was doubled again. So, I made a six-figure salary. So I came from making minimum wage and then making a six-figure salary within, I would say, three or four years after I got my PhD. So, it was very quick.

17:28 Emily: Yeah. And then you said you maintained that salary even though you didn’t live in New York anymore.

17:33 Dr. 50: Yes.

17:33 Emily: Yeah. That’s fantastic.

17:35 Dr. 50: I came back to the federal, and I negotiated with them again. Different agency. And then they said, yes. I said, Oh my gosh. Yeah. It was so wonderful.

17:46 Emily: And do you still work for the federal government?

17:47 Dr. 50: Yes.

Overcoming a Large Financial Struggle

17:48 Emily: Okay. Yes. Thank you so much. It’s an incredible income trajectory. Also in this period post-PhD, I understand you overcame a large financial struggle. Can you tell us about that?

18:01 Dr. 50: Yes. So, during my graduate school years, I mean, as I already told you guys, we didn’t have much. Plus I supported myself and my family, husband, because he was still trying to finish his college also. So, I’d been using credit cards to pay for my tuition. And I was trying to pay it off every month. Some months I did, and some months I did not. So, it’s accumulated from there. And also, when I got my first real job in the New York City, we had our first child and then baby came and husband still couldn’t find any jobs. So, he was unemployed for a long time. Plus, the daycare cost was like so high. So, it’s better for him to be at home and take care of the baby. And then I’ll take care of the financial side of it.

19:04 Dr. 50: And yes, during this time we have surgeries, hospital, car wreck, and everything you can imagine. So, we accumulated a lot of debt. And one day I was like, okay, this is it. I am making a six-figure salary, and I couldn’t even afford a lunch at the cafeteria. And it’s like a wake up call. I need to do something. We need to do something. So, I say to myself, okay, no more excuses. I don’t want to wait until he got a job or I don’t want to wait until the baby leaves the daycare and goes to school. Let’s start now. Let’s do it. Yeah, all of the frustration. I just made our plan, trying to pay off the debt and made a budget and started doing my excel sheets. And then we go from there. And then in less than six years, all the debt was gone, including the mortgage.

20:04 Emily: Wow. What was the total debt balance then? Between the mortgage and the consumer debt that you were working on?

20:10 Dr. 50: Yeah, we had one car payment that was $18,000 and credit card debt was almost $80,000 and the mortgage was $114,000. So, I would say that 230 to $240,000.

20:26 Emily: Wow. So, within six years you paid off 230, $240,000 of debt on $120k ish, it sounds like, salary. Plus your husband was not working or maybe started working at some point during that period?

20:43 Dr. 50: No.

20:43 Emily: Not working during that period.

20:45 Dr. 50: He was not working yet.

20:45 Emily: Okay. Home with the baby.

20:48 Dr. 50: Yes, home with the baby.

A Shift in Money Mindset

20:48 Emily: Yes, plenty of work there. But it doesn’t sound to me, I want to ask you a little bit more about that transition about that day you couldn’t buy the lunch, you were so frustrated. Because the things that you mentioned, you know, that got you into the debt, the medical bills and the car wreck, none of that was frivolous spending. So, what did change actually at that point?

21:13 Dr. 50: It changed because, it’s kind of embarrassing to say, but I spent hours, hours just to pay a couple of bills. Because I have to think in advance, okay, if we have enough to pay for this and that before the next paycheck comes in. So, basically, we were living paycheck to paycheck. We stressed ourselves financially. Okay, the baby crying, I was trying to pay the bills. And I spent a lot to pay a couple of bills. This is, something’s wrong here. It’s not right. So I was, yeah. From there. Okay. Let’s make a decision to tackle this issue from the cause. Yeah. I was struggling and sad, and then I had nobody else to turn to. And I would say, let’s do this. I don’t want to wait any longer. Let’s do it. Our lifestyle will change, no more shopping, no more eating out. Let’s do this. If we do this, we can do this in under 10 years. In 10 years, we will be a whole new person, a new family, and then life will be much better.

22:29 Emily: And is that how you felt when you, you know, sent off the last payment?

22:33 Dr. 50: I felt relief. Okay, I don’t have to make all these calculations and then try to predict the future if my paycheck will be the same or if we will have any unexpected expenses. But I was like, Oh, well, okay, now we are definitely, the debt is gone. I still, so surprisingly, I still felt the same. It wasn’t the financial that I was looking for. I feel I miss something. We were missing something, but I couldn’t put a word to it until I found the FIRE movement.

Discovering the FIRE Movement

23:16 Emily: Yeah. So FIRE, acronym for financial independence and early retirement or retire early. Would you please explain for my audience, you know, your version of what FIRE is and why that spoke to you, and why you decided to pursue it?

23:31 Dr. 50: Yeah. So, before I knew it was a thing I always, Oh, wait, I don’t want to work. I don’t want to do this for the next 40 years. I mean, I only get one take on this planet. I want to do something that really matters, really matters to me and to my family, and really matters, that I am passionate about. I don’t want to spend my 40 years doing this. So, but I didn’t know what that feeling was until I met the FIRE movement, which you already said stands for financial independence, retire early. So, at this point, I want to be financially independent. The retire early can come back later. So, to me, FIRE means that you don’t have to worry about money anymore, meaning you don’t have to be worried about making a living, making money to support your lifestyle, your life. I mean, you can spend your time doing what really matters. To me, I really have a passion about helping animals in need, dogs and cats at the shelter. So, I really want to pursue that.

Commercial

24:50 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. This announcement is for prospective and first-year graduate students. My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society, offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s four-step Grad Boss method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, up-level your productivity, and master time management. I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course titled Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School. It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances in each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school. If this all sounds great to you, please register at theacademicsociety.com/Emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school, and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join Grad School Prep, if you’d like to go a step further. Again, that’s theacademic society.com/E M I L Y for my affiliate link for the course. Now, back to our interview.

Striving for Financial Independence

26:18 Emily: It sounds like when you were heavily in consumer debt and you had your mortgage, you were stressed out and you thought that it was because you were playing this paycheck-to-paycheck game, right? Which is super common, that you have to really figure out, you know, when things can be paid so you have money in the bank to do it and all that. But then, once you got out of that level of stress, you said you still kind of felt the same. And so it sounds like you realized that it wasn’t just the paycheck to paycheck game. It was that you had to have a paycheck at all. You wanted to be freed of needing to work to support your lifestyle.

26:53 Dr. 50: Exactly. Yes. I still felt the same. I was surprised. Oh my gosh. I should just be, feel very happy. Definitely I felt relieved, but it wasn’t the happiness that I was looking for. And then, yeah, I just don’t want to have any paychecks at all. I just want to have my money working for me instead of working for the money. I had been working for the money for a long time, and I don’t want to work for the money anymore.

27:19 Emily: I see. Can you give us a little bit of more of the technicalities of how FIRE works, at least in your example? Like, do you have a number that you’re shooting for, and what are the strategies that you’re using to get to that point?

27:31 Dr. 50: Yes. I have several options. So, because my older child and my husband had a chronic disease that the health insurance is the other issue, but yeah, I have a couple options here. So, the first option would be, we accumulate enough money that we can live off the investments, mainly to live off the dividends or the 4% rules. If you Google 4% rules, you will know what it is.

FIRE: The 4% Rule

28:03 Emily: Yeah. I’ll just say for the listener that there’s kind of a rule of thumb in the FIRE movement, which is that if you are supporting yourself through paper assets, stocks and bonds and so forth, the rule is that you save up, invest, 25 times your expected spending level in your retirement, or if that’s what you’re doing, and that you can withdraw 4% per year from your portfolio over the long-term without endangering, you know, that you’re going to draw it down to zero. That’s a really brief explanation. There’s a lot more underneath that, but that’s the gist of the 4% rule.

28:40 Dr. 50: Yes. So, the first option would just live off the 4% rules and everybody will be staying home and taking care of the kids. So, I just had a baby this year, so yeah, the FIRE just came back to me again. And then the second option would be like my husband keeps working. So, we will have the health insurance that we desperately need. And I would be at home and taking care of the baby. And then the third option would be to move to another country that has the universal health insurance. So, we would get that issue covered, and then we’d just live off of the investment.

29:20 Emily: Yeah. So, which one is your plan A?

29:23 Dr. 50: My plan A is the option two. So, have him keep working so we don’t have to move. And then, because by that time they’d be about to get close to the number. The younger one was still be in elementary school. So, would be just like six or seven years old.

29:40 Emily: Okay. And I think this, you know, this health insurance thing that you brought up is something that is such a big conversation in the FIRE movement in the United States, not necessarily elsewhere. And there are plenty of people who are keeping jobs, not because they need the money, but just because health insurance or the risk that you take, if you went on certain kinds of health insurance plans, is so great here. So, it sounds like either your husband will keep working, or maybe at some point we will have a universal option and then that’ll give you a lot more flexibility.

30:11 Dr. 50: Yes, that’s true. Yeah. If you have that flexibility, that would be great. He doesn’t mind working at all. He loves working. So, I’m really grateful for that.

Federal Retirement Benefits

30:21 Emily: Since you’re a federal government employee, do you have a pension? Or do you have like defined contribution plans, or what’s the deal with your retirement?

30:30 Dr. 50: Yes, I do have a pension that is very, very small. So, let’s say if I worked for 30 years plus if you meet MRA, MRA stands for minimal retirement age, if you meet 30 years at your minimum retirement age, you will get 1% of your high three of your salary. The high three is your last three years of your salary. Let’s say, to make the math easier, if you make a hundred thousand a year for the last three years before you resign. So, 1% of that, and times 30 years, so it’s only $30,000 a year, plus tax and all the deduction, it wouldn’t be much. And we have a 401(k), like any other industry, but what we call it TSP. TSP stands for Thrift Savings Plans. So, it works just like 401(k), but it’s just called differently.

Investment Changes Toward  Achieving the FIRE Goal

31:39 Emily: And since you already went through that massive debt payoff journey before discovering the FIRE movement, was there anything that you actually started changing in your finances once you had that identified as your goal?

31:52 Dr. 50: Yes. I’m glad that you asked that question. So, it changed dramatically. So, I’ve always been maxing out my 401(k), or my TSP, every year. Okay. So, we agreed as a family that we’re going to pursue FIRE. Let’s do something different. Because if I keep my job, if I still continue trying to do a traditional retirement, I would work into my MRA at 57 or 60 years. And if you want to pursue FIRE, we need to fill a gap between that because I cannot take the money out until 59 and a half. So that gap, we cannot draw our 401(k) or any retirement account. So, we opened a broker’s account and instead of maxing out my 401(k) and his 401(k), we just contribute to the match just enough to get the match from our employer. And then divert all the money from that into the brokerage account, the taxable account.

33:00 Emily: So, that sounds like you felt like your post-60 retirement was well-funded enough. And I mean, you’re still going to get the match, so there’s still more growth and a little bit more contribution there, but it sounded like you thought that that was well-funded enough. So, now you’re going to focus on those years between whenever you do stop working and when you can start to access those retirement accounts.

33:21 Dr. 50: Yes. It would be about 10 years. So, the “50” came from, I would like to retire by the time I turn 50. Yeah, so, 10 years I calculated it. All the expenses in the future. I came up with the numbers that we have to have at least $600,000, or $600,000 to be okay, that’s the lean FIRE. If you want to get more comfortable, I say $750,000. That will get up to be better than lean FIRE. Lean FIRE is just like, minimal, barely enough to live on.

34:00 Emily: Anything else that you changed aside from the destination of your investments?

34:05 Dr. 50: Yeah, that’s the one thing. And then we also, any leftover money that we can save, any activity that we cannot pass by, like re-doing our budget, do the meal plan. Budget system number one and meal planning, not going out, basically just frugal living. And then I started a side business. Anything that I can sell. And as a family we like, talk, okay, this is the goal that we want to do. And everybody was on board and yeah. Every little thing, side hustles, living frugally, anything will go to the FIRE account.

Lifestyle and Money Mindset Pre- vs. Post-Grad School

34:54 Emily: How does, how you’re living now–you know, frugally and so forth, saving a lot, working hard–how does that compare to that pre-grad school period, or even the time when you were in graduate school, and you had that heavy workload? I guess I’m asking, how does your lifestyle compare, and also how do you feel about your finances now compared to back then?

35:18 Dr. 50: I would say I feel a little bit better. Because back in the day, we were struggling financially trying to put food on the table, trying to pay rent and then trying to pay the mortgage. Right now, we’ve comfortably more than enough to pay all the expenses, living expenses and mortgage, everything is on auto pay. I didn’t have to worry about if we have enough money. If the bill comes in, if we have a roof leak, if we have a broken pipe, we have emergency funds. So yes, my feeling was much better, but financially I was still trying to meet my financial goal, which is the financial independence. So it’s a different feeling, but I would say a different feeling kind of between struggle and the finish line, I would say.

36:14 Emily: So, sort of like struggling to get off the starting blocks. Right? To even make it, you know, to have a tiny bit of financial security, versus now, like you just said, you can see the finish line. You’re striving and you’re racing for that finish line. And yeah, I would imagine that, even if your lifestyle is pretty low, like you’ve tried to like be pretty frugal and stuff, having that financial security of the, you know, X, many hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, in the bank and the investments, it has to be a massive, massive relief on your mind.

36:49 Dr. 50: Yes. Yeah. It would be a relief because right now we trying, I would say we are in an accumulation phase trying to get as much money into the FIRE as much as possible, as soon as possible. But at the same time, I just don’t want to stress myself out. Because one thing that I learned from our debt-free journey, our debt journey was like, because at the end of the day, you just want to be happy, right? The money doesn’t make you happy. You just need to learn to live in the moment, even though you are trying to achieve something or aim for something, but overall you just want to be happy and just trying to live in the day. I just don’t want to stress out too much because during our debt journey, I was so stressed out. I just wanted to be out of debt so badly. I just didn’t want to spend at all.

37:47 Dr. 50: And I wasn’t happy. And when we were debt-free, I still wasn’t happy. Now, we are on the FIRE path, FIRE journey. I just don’t want to be the same. I just want to enjoy a little bit more of my life. I just want to stop and breathe and enjoy every single day. I just don’t want to wait, because if you wait, you will feel depressed. And if you ever feel like it will never come. So yes, I take it easy and just live in the day. And that day will come before you know it.

Was the PhD Financially Worthwhile?

38:24 Emily: I’m really glad to hear you say that. That’s a message I need to hear. I need to hear that and be able to focus on living in the moment more and not striving. And I’m really glad to hear you say that because I know that some people in the FIRE movement do stay very caught up in the end goal. And even though sort of the philosophy around FIRE would be to be living in the moment both while you’re pursuing it and once you’ve achieved it, a lot of people do fall into just thinking about the future and living for the future and you know, not taking the time to enjoy the time they have at the moment, which is all we have. Right? Really. So, I’m really glad to hear that you’ve, based on your debt free journey, you’ve already learned that lesson. And you’re now, you know, beyond that and into still enjoying your life even while you’re pursuing FIRE. So, I’m really pleased to hear that. Do you think the PhD was financially worthwhile?

39:14 Dr. 50: Oh, yes. In my case, for me. For me, it was worthwhile. I am glad that I made the right decision to pursue a PhD because it’s opened so many doors for us. If I were working at my minimum wage job at a factory, or I was afraid to take the risk of not having any paycheck and then just went straight to grad school without any backup plan. We wouldn’t be here today. Yes. It was very worthwhile. Yeah.

Best Financial Advice for an Early-Career PhD

39:47 Emily: Yes. I can see that clearly from the story now. And so, Dr. 50, I conclude all my interviews by asking my guest what is your best financial advice for an early-career PhD? That could be something we’ve talked about already. It could be something completely different, but would you please share that with us?

40:04 Dr. 50: Yeah, sure. I say, from my past experience as a PhD graduate, you feel like, Oh my gosh, I have a PhD behind my name now. I make a ton of money. Even though it’s not a ton, I would say, it’s increased your income. My one piece of advice would be trying to live the same. Don’t let the life inflation get you. Because if you do that, it will be never enough. I mean, it’s how much you make, how advancing your career brings you. It will not be enough. You just, if you just keep inflating your lifestyle. I’m not saying that you should be conscious as a graduate student, but on the back of your mind, trying to do like other peers are doing. I’m not saying like, you should live this way, but yeah. Lifestyle inflation, it really hurts your financial life.

40:59 Emily: Yeah. And it definitely sounds like you were there, you did that for a little while. I like to say, don’t inflate your lifestyle, but increase your lifestyle. Increase it intentionally, mindfully. But don’t, yeah. Don’t just let it float up to, you know, whatever your salary is.

41:16 Dr. 50: Yes.

41:17 Emily: Yes. I love that advice. Thank you so much. Dr. 50, it’s been a real pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

41:22 Dr. 50: Oh, thank you so much. I’m glad to be here. And I’m so honored to be on this podcast. I am. I hope that my life lesson and experience will be helpful to you guys in some way, some small way. Thank you so much for having me here.

Listener Q&A: Financial Independence

41:42 Emily: Now on to the listener question and answer segment. Today’s question was asked in advance of a live webinar I gave recently for a university client. So, it is anonymous. Here is the question. Quote, can you start a journey to financial independence in grad school. End quote. Wow. It is awesome that this person is already thinking about long-term financial independence as a graduate student. The answer is, unequivocally, yes. In fact, if you’d like to think about it this way, you have already started your journey to financial independence in grad school, because you are making a long-term investment in your career, and presumably, your earning potential. While FIRE is achievable in theory by anyone, it’s definitely an easier road if you have a good salary. So, in that sense, if getting a graduate degree is going to put you on a road to a good salary, you’re already pursuing financial independence. Now, what can you do while you’re actually in graduate school to pursue financial independence?

42:46 Emily: No matter what your income, you can work on your mindset. You can learn more about personal finance. You can put strong habits into place, which you’ll definitely need during graduate school, like budgeting and frugality. Your income is always going to be rather low during grad school, but that’s not the only side of the equation when it comes to financial independence. Your expenses matter a lot as well. I would say, during this period of time, when your income is suppressed, you should take the time to master the controlling expenses side of the equation. But that’s not all. Even with a lower income during grad school, you can work on increasing your net worth. This is what I put a lot of focus on when I was in graduate school. Tactically, once you have your budget set up and hopefully a bit of free cashflow, you can put that towards saving, debt repayment, or investing, following, like I’ve talked about in recent weeks, the financial framework that I developed for PhDs.

43:43 Emily: Now, here’s one key concept that might not have occurred to you yet. While you’re in graduate school and you have this lower income, you also have a lower tax rate. Graduate students tend to, unless they’re married to someone with a much higher income, top out in the 12% federal marginal tax bracket or lower. And that means that it is a perfect time to use a Roth IRA for your retirement investments. Especially, again, if you anticipate a large income increase postgraduate school, this is probably the most optimal time in your life to be using a Roth IRA. And presumably it’s also the earliest investing you’ll do, so it has the longest timeline to compound and grow. People are crazy for the Roth IRA, and they will contribute even when they’re in incredibly high tax bracket. So, you really have, if you think about it, a great opportunity to be able to contribute to the Roth IRA without paying a high tax rate. And five years or so investing in a Roth IRA and then decades compounding after that, this will be a very big portion of your portfolio, ultimately, even if you don’t contribute in absolute numbers a lot of money during grad school. Thank you so much for this question, Anonymous, and I’m so glad to learn that you are already on your journey to financial independence. If you’d like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

45:18 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast, and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.