money story

How This Graduate Student Rejects the Academic Culture of Being Broke

January 27, 2020 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Hajer Nakua, a rising second-year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of Toronto. Hajer describes how the culture of being “broke” in academia becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for individual graduate students. Hajer and Emily discuss in detail Hajer’s top three strategies for breaking this cycle of brokeness in graduate school and how you can change your money mindset. Hajer identifies the culture of consumerism as the top culprit.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Hajer: You know, if people don’t talk about how they’re spending money and all they talk about is the fact that they’re broke, it’s really easy to be like, “Okay, yeah, sure.” But to be more open with money and not have it very taboo I think will really help spearhead discussions of what does it mean to be in graduate school and have money. Like, how are the best ways to spend my stipend?

Intro

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode four, and today my guest is Hajer Nakua, a rising second-year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of Toronto. Hajer describes how the culture of being broke in academia becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for individual graduate students. We discuss in detail her top three strategies for breaking this cycle of brokeness in graduate school, and how you can change your money mindset. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Hajer Nakua.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:04 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Hajer Nakua, and she is a recently started graduate student. We are recording this in August of 2019 so she’s going into her second year. And we’re going to be discussing today the “culture of broke” inside academia and how to combat that with your own personal finances. So, Hajer, thank you so much for joining me today. And will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

01:28 Hajer: Thank you very much, Emily, for having me. And sure. I just finished my undergrad in Psychology, Neuroscience & Behavior at McMaster University in Ontario. I finished in April 2018, and in September 2018, I started my graduate training at the University of Toronto. It’s technically in the Institute of Medical Science, but my field is specifically neuroscience. And even more specific, I use computational technology. So, things like neuroimaging, brain imaging, MRI, to better understand brain behavior relationships in a population of psychiatric children.

The Culture of “Broke” in Academia

02:07 Emily: Very, very interesting. So, you have been in academia–well, your PhD program, at any rate–for only about a year, but that’s been long enough to start to absorb the culture of being broke. So, would you please start to describe that for me?

02:22 Hajer: Sure. I’ve actually noticed this culture very, very persistently in undergrad, and it’s more of a student thing than when you’re a PhD–you’re still considered a student. And it’s just the idea that students, because they don’t have a very stable income, they’re supposed to be broke. And that is a very, very persistent limiting belief that many students have. And I find that particularly in PhD, Masters, or any graduate school program because of the high expense of the program, people just sort of settle into the idea of, “Oh, I’m broke, I’m supposed to be broke.” And it often limits them from taking the necessary measures to try to build wealth even during their PhD or graduate school training.

03:00 Emily: Well, you know you have found a very friendly audience in me with this message. I totally agree with you. To me, like if you’re looking at the numbers, right? Like if you’re actually looking people’s income and outflow and everything, to me, there’s usually a pretty big difference between someone who is paying out of pocket to be in school. They’re probably taking on student loan debt or maybe they’re supported by their families or even maybe they’re drawing on their own savings from the past, and someone who does have their education expenses paid for, plus there’s a stipend on top of that. That to me is like black and white, a very different situation. But you’re right that, because there’s often a continuum between those two things, people who are on the, “Well, you actually do have an income side of that,” can have some of the mindset still from when they were on the other side of the equation. Again, because as you said, the label of “student” is still there. And you said for me a couple of magic words, which were “limiting beliefs,” which I am very interested in. Can you expand on that a little bit?

Can You Expand on Limiting Beliefs?

04:03 Hajer: Sure. So, in general, a limiting belief is this very persistent idea someone has that often allows them to settle into something that prevents them from moving forward with whatever it is that they want in their life. And that’s a very vague and general explanation. But in this case, I find that when people say things such as, “Oh, I’m broke,” they sort of get over the idea that, “Maybe I should have a savings account, maybe I should start, you know, being more financially savvy.” They’re like, “Should I buy this $10 meal? Yeah. Whatever. I’m broke. What another $10?” So, it’s this constant idea that any sort of wealth, any money management is not applicable to their life.”

04:46 Emily: Yeah.

04:46 Hajer: I think that’s very persistent in particularly graduate school. And quickly commenting on one thing that you said. Although there is a stipend, and it’s fair that many people move for a PhD program, so that often goes towards living expenses. So, of course, the amount of money that someone gets, it’s not high, but it’s still, as you said, a little bit surprising to me sometimes that there’s such a strong sense of, “I have no money,” even though technically there is some sort of cash flow coming in.

05:16 Emily: Yeah. And this is another difficult point, right? Because for some people, the stipend is insufficient to live on in that city. It’s tragic that some graduate schools choose to pay their students that way–their workers or their fellowship recipients–that’s something that needs to change kind of about the higher education system as a whole. So, in some cases, it really is true. There’s not enough to live on. You have to be going into debt, whether it’s student loan debt or consumer debt or you’re being supported by someone else. And I think around 50%, or if I’m trying to remember the stats correctly, around 50% or less of doctoral students ultimately do take out some sort of student loans during their graduate degrees, right? Not just from undergrad. Yet, in other cases, as you were just saying, the stipend may be sufficient to live on maybe even sufficient to do a little bit more with.

06:09 Emily: But because of those limiting beliefs, that isn’t even considered, it’s just an assumption. You’re a student, you’re going to be broke, there’s nothing else you can do about it. And like you said, sort of acquiescing to that idea and not acting in a way that could change that situation just because you think that it can’t be changed. Yeah, this is a big part of my message, so I’m really glad that we can have this discussion today. So, what would you say that if someone does accept being broke as a limiting belief, even if it’s not factually numbers-wise necessarily the case–what’s the harm in that? What’s the effect in that?

The Harm of Brokeness as a Limiting Belief

06:48 Hajer: It prevents them from trying to seek opportunities to sort of build any sort of wealth or income. When I say wealth, I don’t mean, you know, those like $1 million wealth. I mean, just sort of being able to work towards your financial freedom, which is a huge goal, particularly in the West as a lot of prices have been getting a lot more expensive. So, it prevents starting that. People often say, “Oh, in my PhD I’m broke so I’m going to stay that way. And then maybe after I’ll sort of think about how I want to think about money or how I want to build my income.” I find that very problematic because PhD is a really pivotal time in your life. So, the vast majority of people start between 22 to 32, in that decade, a lot of students are. And that’s a really key time to sort of build for retirement, or whatever it is, any goals that you may have.

07:40 Hajer: So, starting from an early age, they think, “Oh, that’s it. That’s a problem for later.” Or, “No, I don’t have the money to try to really focus on building financial freedom slowly, slowly, slowly.” It can really be detrimental in their ability to A) save, and also learn how to be good with money when you don’t have a lot of money. Because we’re not saying that PhD students have a great salary, as we’ve spoken about before, but it’s still important to sort of think about ways to be financially savvy at a time where you may not have a lot of wealth. And then as you build on later in life, you’ll get better and better at it. So, I feel like there’s a lot of wasted opportunity during the PhD years once someone succumbs to that limiting belief.

Investing in Yourself: A Cautionary Tale to Grad Students

08:25 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. There are two points in there that I’d like to follow up with. The first is, so at least I have heard, you know, from some aspects of the culture, that your twenties are your time to invest in yourself. Don’t really worry so much about saving for retirement or whatever it might be. There’s time to do that later. Your twenties are your time to invest in yourself. And, if you’ve heard that message, you might think, “Well, yeah, I’m pursuing a PhD. Like that’s a great thing to be doing with my twenties in terms of investing in yourself.” And that’s true. But I do think that maybe the people who are propagating that, “Twenties are the time to invest in yourself” message are assuming that people have a much higher income. That during the course of your 20s, you’re going to be ramping up that income and you know, pursuing all these different opportunities.

09:12 Emily: Maybe you’re starting your own company or whatever it is. That’s a little bit of a different level of potential wealth, you might say, then what we’re talking about in more like the PhD land. Because it is a really difficult thing to start off, let’s say in your twenties, with a certain stipend. And then five, six, seven plus years later still have pretty much that same stipend that’s coming in. It’s very difficult to increase your income at all while you’re in graduate school unless you turn to outside sources of work. So, that’s something that doesn’t really jive for me about that message of like, “Invest in yourself in your 20s.” It’s like, yeah, you can do that, but please note that your income, if you do that through graduate school, is not actually going to be increasing during that time. Or at least not, you know, appreciably.

Investing in Retirement: Slow and Steady Pays Off

09:57 Emily: So, that was one thing that I wanted to point out. And the other one was just, as you were saying, I just wanted to underline the power of starting to invest. Whether that’s, you know, paying off debt or actually investing in stocks or something in your 20s is incredibly valuable because you have so much more time on your side before you reach the goal of, “Okay, I want to support myself in retirement,” or whatever your goal might be. It’s so, so valuable to put away even a very small amount of money early on. The earlier on you can do it, the better because of the magic and the power of compound interest. So, it’s something where like, as you were just saying, if you acquiesce to the idea that you’re going to be broke and you can’t, you know, invest for retirement or pay off your debt or whatever–if you succumb to that idea in your 20s, you might dismiss, “Oh, well, okay, I did have like $20 this month that I could have saved, or like $50. That’s not that much money, whatever. It’s fine.” Actually that is a lot of money once you compound it over multiple decades. So, it’s something where, as you were saying, succumbing to that limiting belief really does damage you in the long-term. If there was something you could have done about it, you know, in the present, which again, for some people it isn’t, but for others perhaps you could.

Investing in Yourself vs. Your Future ≠ Mutually Exclusive

11:16 Hajer: Yeah. And also I wanted to comment on the idea that, “Oh, in your 20s you’re supposed to enjoy yourself and invest in yourself.” And while I agree with that philosophical idea, I think that people often make it very mutually exclusive where there is being financially savvy and then there’s enjoying spending on yourself and investing in yourself and quote unquote self-care and all that kind of stuff. So, I think the message which is driven by consumerism teaches people that, “Oh, you don’t need to think about the future now. You don’t need to be financially savvy now. It’s just spend whatever you want to spend.” And if you have that limiting belief that you’re broke, it’s a very easy message to take in. And it also sort of fills that cognitive dissonance that anyone may have. However, again, I don’t think it’s mutually exclusive.

12:02 Hajer: I think that you can equally–if you’re able to support yourself and your stipend is sufficient–I do genuinely think that you can enjoy yourself and invest in yourself, whether it is with consumerism goods or other self-care habits, and also plan for the future and try to be more financially savvy. And it doesn’t need to be as complicated as investing, but like you said, it could just be having an emergency account that you know that every month a hundred dollars is going to be put in the savings account. I definitely think that in many cases, you can do both. And I think life is very enjoyable when you do both because you know that you’re enjoying the present, but you also know that you are planning for the future, and I think that there’s a lot of sort of warmth that comes with that on the inside.

12:45 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree with what you’re saying. This is what I found to be the case as well, that I never wanted to completely sacrifice my enjoyment of the present. A part of me enjoying the present was feeling more secure in my finances. And so it wasn’t like it has to be all one way or the other. And again, this is another limiting belief, right? Like, “You can only work on your financial future and then the present is going to be completely sacrificed.” Or, “You can only enjoy the present and then you cannot do anything for the future.” In fact, there usually is a balance between those two things. And why also when we choose to be extreme in one way, do we always choose the extreme of enjoying the present and not the extreme of sacrifice in the present, at least for the vast majority of people? So, yeah, I really enjoyed that part of our discussion. So, okay, let’s say we have a listener who says, “Okay, I’m hearing you. I’m hearing you. What can I do now on my grad student stipend or my postdoc salary?” Or whatever amount of money is coming in. You know, “How can I not be broke anymore? I’ve been telling myself that I have to be broke. Okay. Maybe I don’t have to, but what do I actually do to not be broke anymore?”

How to Exit the Cycle of Broke

13:51 Hajer: Okay. I love this question. I wanted to say more of a philosophical idea and then go towards practical tips. The first thing is to recognize that you’re always accountable for all the money that you use and you spend, because I think that people often–I hear this all the time, “I don’t know where the money goes. It just sort of leaves my bank account, and I just keep tapping. I have no idea what I’m buying.” So, I think when you’re at that level, you really need to step back and think, “Where is my money going?” If you’re a Tapper, if you’re just like, “I can tap my way through life,” you really need to sit back and think, “Well, what am I actually tapping on? How do I stop these habits?”

14:29 Hajer: So, I think that’s the first important step to acknowledge self-accountability in your spending and financial habits and your financial future. That’s number one. Number two, I think saving money can be a lot easier than people expect. And oftentimes when you go to YouTube or you read these blogs, they have these very complex budgets and you know, all these things are very meticulous and they understand that as a graduate student, a lot of our time is spent on project management, making sure that we’re sort of completing every stage of the project. So, you don’t want to add so much more to your plate that you’re being super meticulous. So some habits that I started off with is A) have an automatic transfer from a checking account to a savings account. So, I will check how much money would I need to save per month for whatever it is that I want. Maybe I’m saving up for a vacation, saving up for a car, whatever it is that you want to do. Calculate your monthly budget and then just transfer that so it’s on autopilot. You never have to think about it. And whatever’s left in your checking account, you can just spend. And that way it’s a much simpler methodology to get the end goal. Which is that, there’s a certain amount allotted for things that you want to do. You’re thinking about the future, but you have enough to enjoy.

You Don’t Have to Budget in Order to Save

15:43 Emily: I want to add to that for a moment because I think this is a really, really good and important point. Because there are some people who as you said, maybe it’s because of busy-ness, but maybe it’s not–some people don’t want to keep a budget. They don’t like to be feeling–even though they’re telling themselves what to do–they don’t like being told what to do with their money at any given time. So, the thing is though is that you don’t have to budget to save, but you can just go ahead as you were just saying and take the step of saving. And as long as you don’t end up overdrawing the amount of money you have left, then Hey, you’ve accomplished the step of saving and you’re trusting yourself to stay within the ultimate confines of the remainder of your money.

16:25 Emily: And you don’t have to silo all that money off into different categories if you don’t want to. If that’s helpful for you, great. But if you’re too busy, you don’t like it, just start saving and you know, adjust–you can live off the rest of it. So that tip, I mean, if that’s the only one anyone gets out of the podcast, that’s a hugely powerful one. I totally agree with you. Automate savings, do it first thing after you get paid. Don’t allow yourself to consider that money part of your general monthly spending, but rather put it first thing towards whatever goal it is that you’re working on, as you said. So, please continue. But I love that first point.

Tip 1: Automated Savings. Tip 2: Check Your Food Expenses

16:57 Hajer: I’m happy that you like it. What really helps me, especially during grad school–because I’m someone who is more on the meticulous end. I like know exactly where everything’s going in all aspects of my life. But I really found that this tip is the best one to start off with because I’m a big believer in gradual changes. So, nobody’s going to go from a reckless spender to a meticulous budgeter in a month because they have this very intense goal. And I think that it’s not practical to think that or to take those steps. So, I think sort of automated savings is the best way to go especially for graduate students. And then further on, as your money increases, you may want to be a little bit more meticulous. My second tip, and I’ve seen this in undergrad and graduate school, people spend an absurd amount of money on food, I’ve learned.

17:43 Hajer: And not grocery shopping. We’re not talking about whole foods, organic apples, we’re just talking about buying food every single day, buying a coffee and a drink with that. So, a lot of people that I know in graduate school spend $20 a day just on their daily food intake, in addition to any grocery shopping that they may do. And I really wanted to bring this up because when you really calculate how much money food takes out of your wallet, it almost would make you cry because it’s just one of those things that you don’t feel it because it’s $15 here, it doesn’t seem like a lot. The next day, $7 here, it doesn’t feel like a lot. So, that’s one thing. If you find that a lot of your money is being spent on to-go food, so food outside of your own home and outside of groceries, I really think the first step in addition to the savings account is tightening that up and trying to just do the grocery shopping and meal-prepping or whatever it is that’s how you want to eat. It’s up to you. So, we’re not talking about from a health perspective, although it helps. But from a money perspective, I really think that’s the first place people need to look at–their food spending habits.

Pay Attention to Repeated Spending Patterns

18:48 Emily: Yeah, of course. I have more to say on this as well because I love this tip as well. So, I actually found myself falling into this when I was in graduate school. So, something that would happen to me–and you can tell me if you relate to this–this is especially in the first couple of years when I was in grad school and I was still in classes and had like homework to do and stuff. So, you know, go to campus, you know, do your classes. I’ve packed my lunch. Okay. I packed my lunch every day, but there were plenty of days when I would sort of, without knowing in advance, I would actually stay late. So, I would stay over the dinner hour and be working on campus in the evenings because, you know, I had like a good study group going for like a couple of my classes.

19:23 Emily: We would meet and kind of talk about the homework and stuff, you know, in the evenings, a couple days a week. Maybe there’s something in the lab that I didn’t get to during the day. I need to get to it a little bit later. But I didn’t want to be hungry, of course. So anyway, I would go and buy convenience food on campus. This would happen, you know, once, twice a week, something like that. Not seemingly a hugely damaging habit. But when I kind of stepped back and evaluated that, I was like, “Okay, this is a pattern. It’s not totally unexpected that I stay into the evenings at least a couple days, you know, on campus.” So it’s not like, “Oh my gosh, this is only happening this one time. It’s a one-time exception.” No, it was an exception that was happening on a regular basis.

20:05 Emily: And so once I realized that that pattern had formed, I was like, “Okay, I need to do more than just pack my lunch. I have to also keep some food that I could eat for dinner at least as a heavy snack or something that’ll tide me over until I actually get home in the little bit later part of the evening.” So, it’s one thing, of course–people have heard the tip, right? To pack your lunch–but I would say just if you see patterns developing where you need to eat on campus and you see yourself turning to convenience foods, just try to acknowledge that that’s happening and take some steps so that it doesn’t catch you by surprise.

Keep a Snack Drawer, and Bring Your Own Tea (or Coffee)

20:38 Hajer: I actually had the exact same experience. I started to develop like a snack drawer. So, there’s a couple of healthy snacks I like, some that I make, some, you know, whatever it may be–maybe it’s like an apple or something for the week–and I keep that there. And that way, whenever I have to stay later–which I try not to do, I am someone who, you know, at 4:00 PM that’s my home time–but of course, like you said, there are times you just can’t control it. So, I know that there is something there and it’s something that I brought. Even if it’s a $3-4 bagel, that still adds up. My biggest thing was I used to really enjoy buying tea outside. I just loved in the morning coming with my tea and it was only $2 and 67 cents from Starbucks at the time.

21:24 Hajer: I memorized it and I always had it ready because I knew exactly how much it was. But over time you realize how much it would cost. And what I started to do is A) bring my own tea and buy a really cute mug. So, I felt good walking in with my tea mug. But sometimes if I didn’t have my mug, I would actually just ask for a cup and hot water and I would bring my tea bag, and I have them on my desk. And that saved a lot of money. But you just don’t feel that because $2.67 doesn’t seem like that much money. So, even something as small as tea, I felt that like, “Oh wow. By the end of the month, I have considerably more money than I did last month.” And it was just one very small change.

21:59 Emily: Yeah, because it’s a daily or an almost daily habit. Making a small change can make a huge difference.

Commercial

22:09 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us, and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation, and don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns, from free articles and videos to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax. That’s P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now, back to the interview.

Changing Your Money Mindset

23:12 Hajer: One thing that has really helped me is–so, there’s multiple aspects of consumerism that we all fall into, and I think it’s very pertinent in grad school just because, “Oh yeah, the whole broke culture.” But it’s a very funny dissonance where we love to talk about how broke we are, but we love to spend money at the same time. So, I find that’s very common. So, in general, in addition to food, other habits that you may have, I think it’s very important to check. So, many of us like to spend a lot of money on fast fashion. And we know that it’s not going to last very long. We just love the idea of going into a fast-fashion store, buying a $40 shirt. Seems like a good idea, but you know, in four months you’re not going to wear that shirt anymore.

23:54 Hajer: So, it’s things like that where you really want to try to look at alternatives where you may have to put in a greater sum in the beginning, but in the long run you’re really going to help your finances. And I think thinking in that way has really helped. So, instead of the idea of instant gratification, “I want a latte right now. I want this shirt right now. I want this meal right now.” Get outside that mindset. And instead think, “Okay, long-term, what do I want? Because when it comes to the food or the clothes or whatever, the idea is, “I want to have a meal that I enjoy.” That’s really the core of what you want. But that can come in many different ways. And many of it you can save a lot of money with.

24:34 Hajer: “I want to buy clothes that I enjoy.” Okay, well, what are better spending habits that you may do so that in the long-term, you know that you’re saving money? So, and just in general, letting go of the need of instant gratification, which to be honest, is very, very hard in our very, very multi-consumerism culture. Many businesses make billions of dollars because of the fact that it’s very hard to let go of instant gratification. But the way that I like to think about it is, the PhD is the biggest test of lack of instant gratification in your entire life. You are never going to get this level of delayed gratification where you work two years and you got one paper. You know, you work four or five years, you finally got your PhD. So, really changing your mindset and saying, you know, “I’m doing this for the long run. Like I know that the PhD is not going to be enjoyable all the time, but at the end I’m going to enjoy it.” Think that same way about money and your finances. And I think that one thing is just so powerful, and it can fuel a lot of change. So, although it’s not as much a practical tip, but I think that’s an important way to redirect or reconceptualize how you view your spending habits.

The Multiple Benefits of Being Future-Focused

25:47 Emily: Yes. Unsurprisingly, I love this point as well. This is actually something that I’ve spoken and written about on a few occasions, but I’ve never heard anybody else bring it up. So, I’m really glad that you did, which is the specific characteristics of a person who is in a PhD program or has completed a PhD program. Some of those characteristics can lend themselves very, very well to financial success. As you were just saying, thinking long-term about your career. “Okay, I’m going to dedicate multiple years to achieving this PhD.” As you were just saying, sometimes the experiments, the research itself, can take a really, really long time, especially at the beginning. You become really persistent. You are dedicated when you are in a PhD program or have accomplished a PhD, and you’re really future-focused.

26:33 Emily: And all those things serve really, really well if you’re able to translate them into the area of your personal finances as well. PhDs are also resourceful. They are creative. They’re all these really positive things. Even just getting admitted into a graduate program means that you have a lot of these characteristics and you will further develop them during the course of the PhD. And so yeah, if you can find a way to apply those in the financial realm as well, I mean you’re going to be a superstar, basically. Just by the characteristics that brought you to the stage of training that you’re already at. So, I really, really totally agree with this point. I think something that you said that people don’t necessarily acknowledge is if they take a step back from the treadmill of consumerism, they might think, “I have to live this way forever. I have to be frugal forever. I have to say no to buying X, Y, Z forever.”

You Don’t Have to Be Rich in Order to Be Frugal

27:27 Emily: But the thing is that if you can take that step back from consumerism for a period of maybe a few years and really get your finances solid underneath you, and really do things like investing in yourself and increasing your income and so forth, you can add–I mean consumerism is kind of a negative word–but you can add mindful spending back in after a period of, you know, stepping back from it, if you just again, have some wherewithal to your finances. So, for example, something that is a common criticism of frugality tips that are disseminated is that you have to already have money to be frugal, right? So, stuff like buying in bulk or like what you were just saying, actually, buying an investment piece of clothing that’s a little bit more money instead of multiple cheaper pieces of clothing that aren’t going to fall apart faster.

28:19 Emily: Well, you do need money upfront to do those things. So, a common criticism of frugality is you have to be rich to be frugal, right? It kind of doesn’t make sense. But the thing is that it doesn’t take that long of building up some savings or something to have enough money to start taking those frugal steps that do require an upfront investment, which of course not all of them do. And so, it might be that, “Okay, yeah, I’m just going to go on a spending fast for three months. At the end of the free three months, I will be able to take all these other frugal steps, which will then be able to fund me starting to spend again.” So, it doesn’t have to be a forever sacrifice. It can be a short-term thing that can then sort of catapult you to greater and greater ability to build your wealth. Does that make sense?

Inching Toward Investments: Take Your Time

29:04 Hajer: Totally. And I had a couple of comments on the frugality. Because I used to actually think like that, too. I used to think, “You know, frugality comes from a relative place of privilege.” To be able to think–and even the comment on fast fashion that I brought up, I was listening to a podcast and one of the key women who tried to really vouch for sustainable fashion. She works with a lot of celebrities. She talks about the fact that if you really calculate how much money you are spending on fast fashion, you could easily buy a couple of those things and investment pieces. So, again, it’s the idea–and like you mentioned as a PhD student–you know, really understanding where’s the investment worth being put in. And another really important point that I wanted to say is, I don’t think it’s wise to do all these changes all at once.

29:54 Hajer: To be like, “Okay, that’s it. I’m kind of all out. I’m changing everything I wanted to change.” There are of course going be habits that trickle in and that’s totally fine. But it’s again thinking that you’re responsible for your wealth, your financial management. So, what are the steps that you think you can do? And then start from there and slowly build in. So, you know, if you want to be a little bit more frugal or you want to go on a spending fast, but you want to make sure that you have some money initially just in case, then make that your priority and you’ll sort of focus on that. So, these are all gradual tips that require time to sort of get back on your feet of comfort with your money and comfort with your finances, but it’s important just to start somewhere and then, you know, build from there.

30:41 Emily: Yeah, I think that the idea that you have to revolutionize everything in your life at once to be successful with money is another one of those limiting beliefs that isn’t true that we tell ourselves as an excuse to getting out of doing anything. So, when I think about my own journey–when I started my business, Personal Finance for PhDs, it was when I finished graduate school and I had already attained a great deal of financial success at that point. And so if you looked at me at the end of graduate school and saw, “Okay, she’s got her stuff together, she’s budgeting, she’s saving, she’s investing, paying off debt, all that stuff.” It’s easy to overlook the seven years between college and when I finished my PhD that it took to get to that point of success. And I did not start off doing everything right out of the gate, right? This is something that I learned very gradually over time, and yet still, by my own definition, obtained a great deal of financial success several years later. So, it’s not that you have to exactly be like me or exactly be like you or exactly be like someone else you hold up as a model, like a financial mentor or something. You don’t have to instantly transform to be that person. It’s okay for it to take years. It will still be effective if you make slow changes. In fact, probably more so because it’s more sustainable.

Personal Finance Really Is “Personal”

31:55 Hajer: Exactly. And also take into consideration your personal situation. So, many PhD students live at home, so of course they don’t have the very high rent to pay. And of course that makes many things easier. Many PhD students are supported by other individuals that help them out. And some PhD students, again, are living in a more difficult financial situation in the sense that they have to pay rent and they’re solely responsible for themselves. So, take in your situation, and really think about what are the actionable steps that I can do, what are the beliefs that are holding me back? How do I change those? And again, it will take years to be really comfortable with the way that you want to spend money, and that’s completely okay. And there’s never the best way to money. There are certain things that some people may think, “Oh, you don’t need to spend on that.” But I personally like to and I’m okay with that. So reaching that place where you’re confident and comfortable in your money spending, it takes many years. But like you said, it’s always worth it. But it’s always important to take in your personal situation and your personal wealth and not try to compare your situation to someone else’s.

33:02 Emily: This is actually one of my favorite things about personal finance, is that it is intensely personal and intensely individual and there is not a cookie-cutter solution that’s going to work for everyone. It’s a challenging thing for me as a personal finance educator, but it’s just something that makes it such a rich field to be in. I want to get back to this question of mindset. Are there any more comments that you want to make about how to break this mindset, this accepting of the culture of being broke?

Encouraging Open Dialogues About Money in Grad School

33:29 Hajer: I think the first thing I want to say, like we mentioned, this culture is very, very persistent. This mindset is very, very hard to stay out of. Like sometimes I find, even though I’m totally against it, I find that I say things about the whole broke culture of being a student. In terms of breaking the mindset, it’s just always important to understand what being broke means and what us casually saying the word means. Many people, as we mentioned, do have some level of finances that they can spend. If you find that you are able to spend money, you’re technically not broke. So, you just think about that, and then take the steps that you want to take to get more financial freedom. And also just, I think it’s really helpful to bring up the conversations around your colleagues, whether that’s in school, your classmates, those in your lab.

34:22 Hajer: I do that often in my lab. It’s quite a big lab. So, we often talk about money and what does it mean to have money in graduate school. And sometimes if someone says, “Oh, you know, graduate students are always broke,” it’s important to sort of chime in and think, “Okay, well why are we broke? How do you break those down? Is it something that we just think in our head?” So, that’s why I think this podcast, I really gravitate towards it. Because it is just trying to have that conversation started. And I think that’s the most effective way to break that down because it’s hard as an individual, even if you got over that, just sort of change the culture around you and it will always creep into your mindset. But just starting the conversation, it doesn’t have to be on a podcast, of course.

35:02 Hajer: Individually, it’s really important to talk to the people around you about money and not make money a very taboo topic. Because I think if people don’t talk about how they’re spending money and all they talked about is the fact that they’re broke, it’s really easy to be like, “Okay, yeah, sure.” But to be more open with money and not have it very taboo I think will really help spearhead discussions of what does it mean to be in graduate school and have money. Like, how are the best ways to spend my stipend?

Call to Action: The Importance of Budget Breakdowns

35:32 Emily: This is one of the reasons why I really love doing the budget breakdown episodes that I have done in the past. In my first season of the podcast, I did 50% of the interviews were budget breakdowns where I think it was all graduate students except I did my own as well. I think it was all graduate students and talking about, “Okay, this is where I live, this is how much I make and this is how I spend it and these are my financial goals.” And it’s something that I’ve continued with the podcast, although not at the 50% frequency, but I just want to point out that I love these local examples, right? These very relatable examples. If someone else from that same institution living in the same city hears that particular podcast, that’s an easy way to start a discussion–not necessarily even with the person who was interviewed, but just someone else like, “Oh my gosh, I heard this thing and that person is spending how much on rent? And that means that they can turn around and do this with their finances. I wonder how I can find a place where I can only spend that much on rent?” Or like, “Wow, they meal prep their food and that means they only–you know.”

36:25 Emily: But it’s really valuable to see those local examples that are very, very relatable to you. Because it’s very easy to dismiss, as we were talking about before, frugal tips or something as something that doesn’t apply to me because I live in X , Y, Z and this is my particular situation. Well, if you end up talking to people who make the same amount of money that you do and live in the same place that you do, it’s a lot more relatable and their strategies are a lot more translatable. And frankly, you’re more likely to hear them if you listen to them. If you hear them from someone who you can identify with in those other factors. So, this is basically just a call for any listeners, please volunteer and submit your budget breakdown. Volunteer for a budget breakdown episode because I love doing those and I’m not really getting that many volunteers for them now, which is why we do a lot of other types of episodes. But anyway, I still love them. They hold a special place in my heart and I think they’re really valuable.

37:11 Hajer: I love them as well. On YouTube, I think Glamour magazine on YouTube has a lot of budget breakdowns, particularly in individuals in very expensive city like New York, San Francisco. And again, it’s really nice sort of think about how someone else spends their money and then you can translate that into thinking about how you spend your money. Another tip is, the first step if you’re going to take one actionable step, especially to break down the whole broke culture, is to really calculate how much money is going in every month, how much money are you spending? And that way you can numerically counteract the idea that, “Oh, you’re broke.” Because if it’s the, “Oh wow. After all the money that I get and after I spend it, I still have $400, like I’m not really a broke.” So, I think it’s really getting in tune with how much you’re spending. But because of the way the culture is right now, not many people are in tune with their spending habits. So, again, falling into that very broke culture. It’s very easy.

Tell Us More About Your Podcast Team

38:07 Emily: So, I understand you are part of a podcast team as well. So, what is that podcast and how can people find it? What is it about?

38:15 Hajer: So, it’s called Raw Talk Podcast, and essentially it’s a science communication podcast headed by students in the Institute of Medical Science at the University of Toronto. And essentially what the team tries to do is take these really key topics that people are interested in and go to scientists and ask them about their research and the latest discoveries of those topics. So, we’ve covered a wide array of topics such as autism spectrum disorder, the circadian rhythm, mental health in graduate school. And the idea is just to help you know, the general public and everyone understand what is the latest research and how do we best understand some of these topics that are not always well-represented in the media or that people may be curious in. You can find it on Facebook, Instagram, any podcast app, and Twitter and it’s just Raw Talk Podcast. And on Instagram, there’s a lot of new content featuring our guests and some really cool science tips or science fun facts. So, we really just try to break down some of the complex parts of science and be able to translate it using very local researchers that many people can Google and email.

39:31 Emily: This is such a fun way for people to get involved in science communication, I think. I mean I love podcasting obviously, And I just think it’s an amazing medium. And so, this is something that I know has been started. This kind of thing has been started at many other universities as well. And so, I mean if this is something that attracts you about potentially communicating science from your own university and you don’t want to take it all on yourself, it’s a really good idea to get a few other students together who are also interested in the same thing and start it up together and kind of spread the work around. So, that’s exciting. How long has this podcast been going on for?

40:06 Hajer: When the summer finished, which was about April, May, we just finished our third season, so we’re starting our fourth season in September.

How Else Can You Be Reached?

40:18 Emily: Great, great. Okay. And how else can people find you individually?

40:23 Hajer: Sure. So, I recently just started a science communication account myself as a science student and also moreso to share the graduate student experience and experience with research and academia. What does it look like, particularly being from more of an underrepresented group? I really wanted to share what that looks like, navigating academia and research. So, my main platform right now is Instagram, but I do hope to branch out and start blogging. But my Instagram is, @itshajernakua. So, I T S H A J E R N A K U A. And yeah, it’ll be really nice. And I try to share tips of grad school, tips about finding passion with research, and I’m also starting to get more into financial and money tips as a graduate student.

41:08 Emily: That sounds amazing. Okay, well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing this wonderful content.

41:14 Hajer: Thank you so much for having me. This is my first podcast being interviewed, not interviewing. So, this is really exciting.

Outtro

41:20 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhD’s are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode. And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How Winning Fellowships Forced This Grad Student to Take Out Student Loans

January 6, 2020 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Dessie Clark, a doctoral candidate in Community Sustainability at Michigan State University. In 2018, Dessie received a few small fellowships for conference travel and a couple months of stipend income. In 2019, the financial aid office told her she had been “over-awarded” and had to pay the travel fellowship money back. Dessie took out student loans to pay that bill and then set up a payment plan with the IRS when she couldn’t pay the additional tax due on the fellowships. Dessie shares the steps she takes now when receiving fellowships so that she does not become over-awarded and how to prepare for tax time as a fellowship recipient.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Dessie: Outside of academia, people wouldn’t hesitate to ask questions about their paycheck, right? And so we need to kind of be thinking about it the same way. If something was different on your paycheck, you would ask why or what’s going on and how you need to deal with it. So just not being afraid to try and talk to people about what’s going on with you so you don’t get in a bind.

Introduction

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five episode one and today my guest is Dessie Clark, a doctoral candidate and community sustainability at Michigan State University. In 2018, Dessie received several thousand dollars in fellowship income for travel awards and a couple months of stipend income. In 2019, she received a bill from the university for the amount of the travel awards. Apparently, she had become overawarded, a term that was totally new to me., Dessie he took out student loans to pay back the university, and to add insult to injury, faced a higher tax bill that season as well. Dessie relays what she had learned on how to avoid becoming over awarded and her advice for all graduate students receiving stipends. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dessie Clark.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:19 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Dessie Clark, who is a graduate student and is going to be telling us about being awarded fellowships as a graduate student and some of the unexpected downsides that can come with being awarded fellowships, which is of course a wonderful thing, but in Dessie’s case they caused a few other complications. Dessie, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today and will you please tell us a little bit about yourself?

01:45 Dessie: My name is Dessie Clark and I am a doctoral candidate in community sustainability at Michigan State University. I actually got my master’s degree at Vanderbilt University in community development and action. And then I moved to Michigan to finish out my PhD.

02:01 Emily: Great. And how long have you been at Michigan State?

02:04 Dessie: I have been at Michigan State for four years.

02:09 Emily: Okay. So I won’t ask you when you’re finishing, but I’ll just say soon, you’re finishing soon.

02:13 Dessie: Yeah, hopefully this year, maybe next year, maybe, you know, whenever.

Funding During the PhD:

02:16 Emily: Yeah. So can you tell us a bit how your funding has worked since you’ve been doing your PhD?

02:22 Dessie: I’ve mostly been funded as a research assistant, so that provides coverage for tuition and then a stipend to live on. There have been a couple of summers where I’ve taught as an instructor, but for the most part it’s been RAs. And then there have been some brief moments in time where fellowships have also come into play, which is what I wanted to talk about today.

02:43 Emily: Yeah. Please elaborate about that. When did you win fellowships and maybe what amounts were they, those kinds of details?

02:52 Dessie: I think one of the things that’s important is that I didn’t necessarily know that I was getting fellowships. How this came into play for me was I had friends that had gotten fellowships and they had talked about how they were unaware of the tax implications. So I knew when I was going to apply for fellowships or asked for them that there would be tax implications there. But for me, I was actually receiving fellowships in the form of travel awards. So there were multiple times where I applied to go to conferences, and when I was awarded that travel money, I wasn’t aware that they were fellowships. So I’ve won I guess, fellowships of several thousand dollars for travel. Then there was a brief time where, I needed to change labs and so fellowships were used to fund me in my transition.

03:40 Emily: Okay. So definitely for the travel awards, we’re only talking about thousand, few thousand dollars here and there. Seemingly a relatively small amount of money, right? And then when you were switching labs, was it a semester’s worth of funding or how long was that?

03:54 Dessie: It was still relatively small. It was a couple of thousand dollars, but all of these fellowships awards actually happened in the same semester, so by the end it ended up being like $7,000 or $8,000.

04:07 Emily: Oh, okay. When they hit all at once, it really does add up in that case. Okay. So yeah, you didn’t really know that that was what you were receiving. So what happened? You get this money and it’s all good, right?

04:19 Dessie: Right. So I get this money and I’m really excited, I can afford to go to these conferences, I’m able to switch labs. But one of the things that I didn’t know is that they were fellowships, so I was kind of surprised two-fold. The first thing that happened that let me know that something wasn’t going quite right was that — this was in the fall of 2018 — so when I was going to start school in spring 2019, I got a bill from the university that said, “you owe us money, you’ve been over awarded.” I had no idea what that meant, but what I understand now is that every student has a cap on what they’re allowed to receive for education-related expenses. They had decided that this amount of money that I had received for travel had thrown me over that, so I needed to pay back university. That was kind of the first thing I noticed.

Fellowship Cap and Being Over-awarded

05:05 Emily: Let me pause there, because this term over awarded is new to me as well. What are you paying back to the university?

05:16 Dessie: What they were charging me ended up being the sum total of those travel award costs. There’s something that you can do to kind of help with this. Like I said, every student has a cap for how much money they’re allowed to receive, but one of the things that your department can do is they can write a letter saying, “This travel money is necessary for this person’s education. This is advancing their education or contributing in some way and this money is going towards that. It’s nothing extra. It’s not something we can go shopping on. This is money for the students’ education.” I didn’t know that that was something that could be done or needed to be done, so it wasn’t done in my case. I got this bill and it happened to be for the exact amount that I had received for travel awards. I found out through talking to financial aid that basically those things have been passed through as fellowships and because of how they were categorized, I got more money from the university than I was allowed to and so I needed to pay it back.

06:12 Emily: So it sounds like your stipend had been paid by your RA position and this supplemental fellowship, but those were kind of evening out to be what you’re allowed to be paid. And then these travel awards were over and above that and they were like, you’re not allowed to receive this money. This is literally the first time I’ve heard of this. I don’t know if maybe this is unique to your university or your department or maybe in all these cases, other people write these letters, their advisors write these letters that you’re talking about. I’m not sure how that works out, but this is really the first time I’m hearing about this, so it’s definitely raising like some major red flags for me.

06:46 Dessie: Yes. So from my understanding, and this is just what I’ve been told, this kind of cap exists for every student that is at a university, but I don’t know if it’s just how my university chose to handle it, or if this is happening a lot more than people know about, but basically what happened was I was over whatever that cap is. So it became a huge issue because now I’m sitting here before I can start school being told that I was thousands of dollars.

07:15 Emily: Right, exactly. So what did you do?

07:19 Dessie: What I did was what I didn’t want to do, I took out student loans and they subtract it from that.

07:24 Emily: So you took out student loans to pay the university for money that you had won that you used go to conferences. This Is bananas. This situation makes no sense. I’m really glad that you volunteered to come on the podcast to talk about this because the situation I’ve heard in the past for other students is that maybe they have a fellowship coming from the university or maybe they have an RA position or TA, something like that. Then they win a fellowship that’ll pay like their stipend. And a lot of students think, “I am in the money now.” They think getting that fellowship on top of the existing funding for their RA position or whatever it was. That is almost universally not the case. It is possible that you may end up being paid more than you were going to in the first place, but it’s not going to be double what your stipend was to begin with. And so there’s plenty of people who are caught by surprise by “what I just won funding, what do you mean you just take away my other funding?” No, that’s definitely how that works everywhere. There may be some room for negotiation and so forth, but that’s how the standard situation works. But I’m really glad to hear about your situation as well. So you know, now that you have been through the whole thing, what could have been done on your behalf and wasn’t. I don’t know. This is something that I’ve never heard of, of a student having a proactively ask for, so of course you wouldn’t have known, but I guess in the future, anyone listening who receives extra fellowships in some manner, make sure that you’re not going to run into any kind of cap, or whatever exceptions need to be made are going to be made on your behalf. Is that your advice?

Proactive Steps to Avoid Getting Over-awarded

08:54 Dessie: Yes, that is definitely my advice. I think something else too that really ties into this, that I experienced, is I got another fellowship for travel in spring and of course this time I was like, “hi, can you please write this letter and send it to financial aid? “And they were able to do that. But I came upon a situation this summer where there was something the university was going to pay for and they weren’t able to pay for it the way that they want it to. I had gone to my college and I said, I need help figuring out how this thing is going to get paid for, but it can’t be a fellowship because I’m scared I’m going to get over awarded again and I’m going to owe it. My college was really great at hearing that concern and trying to work with me on it, but what ended up happening in the meantime is that the graduate school at my university granted it as a fellowship anyway. One of the things that I think is a kind of a broader issue is that when we’re getting loans or we’re getting grants, we have to accept them and there’s usually some paperwork that we have to go through promising whatever and making sure we fully understand the impacts, but I was awarded a fellowship without my permission basically. I think that the school has figured it out, so that way I won’t be over awarded and this won’t impact me, but I also think that’s why I said at the beginning, it’s really important to know how things are being classified and categorized on your behalf because maybe something is a fix, but then all of a sudden six months down the road you’re being asked to pay it back. I think keeping an eye on that is really important.

10:15 Emily: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you were taking the proactive steps the second time around that you knew to take, and yet, as you just said, they can just push these things through into your student account and there’s no process around it. It’s totally on their end and they have control over it. But I guess, did it just end up being that they just took it back like, “Oh, we gave it to you, now we’re going to take it back and award you the money in some other way?”

10:40 Dessie: They ended up just doing what I was talking about before and doing the right amount of paperwork to explain why this is an educational expense and all of that. I think it was handled because they knew that there were some extra steps that needed to be taken. But I think another thing too is you asked me how I found out about all this. Like so many other students at tax time, it really became a “you owe this money.” I think too, it’s easy for us to just think like, well this was only, you know, $1,000 here or $1,000 there. But it really adds up. And for most graduate students, we’re not in a super comfortable financial place. So even a surprise tax of a couple of hundred dollars can really set you back.

11:20 Emily: Yeah, and sometimes I think it’s easy to forget the academic year and the calendar year don’t line up, right? So you could be receiving fellowships maybe in two different academic years, but if they fall in the same calendar year, then it’s all going to add up at that year-end tax return.

Commercial

11:40 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Tax Consequences of Being Over-awarded

12:44 Emily: Okay, not only did you, you know — Hey, you received award funding. Awesome. Got that. Oh no, you have to pay it back to the school. Ridiculous. You have to take out student loans, do that. So essentially, with some middlemen, you were just taking out student loans to go to conferences, which is probably not a decision, it sounds like, you would have made, had you known that was going to be outcome. On top of that, travel and research is not a qualified education expense for making fellowships tax free. So you end up with this tax bill on top of all the other stuff that’s happening. How did that play out?

13:19 Dessie: I think one of the things that I knew when I was changing labs is that I knew that a portion of that fellowship money, I knew it was untaxed* and I was gonna need it. So I was able to put that aside. What surprised me is when I sat down with my accountant and she put two and two together, that all these other things had been categorized as fellowships, the amount I had set aside to pay taxes on was not nearly the amount of money that I needed. That was obviously a huge strain. I’m lucky enough that I have a partner who works, but we did end up having to go on a payment plan to the IRS because I just couldn’t afford to come out of pocket the amount that I owed.

[* By ‘untaxed,’ Dessie is referring to the fact that income tax was not withheld for her on this portion of her income, not necessarily that it is tax-free.]

13:57 Emily: At the point when you were working with your tax preparer, at what point in tax season was that? Were you getting ready to file and you found out that, “Oh wait, I’m going to owe more than I had set aside?”

14:08 Dessie: It was right at the end. There was no fixing it. I getting ready to file taxes and she’s like, this is not looking good, and it was what it was at that point.

14:18 Emily: Not all the listeners may know, but some people might hear, maybe from their parents or something, about filing extensions. So they get another, I don’t know, six months or something to file your tax return. You do not get an extension on actually the tax that you owe. You only get the extension on the return. So if you’re finding out in March or April that you owe a tax bill and you’re not prepared to pay it, as you said, graduate students typically live without much margin in their lives. If you find that you owe a tax but you’re not prepared to pay it, really probably the best thing to do is what you did, which is to go on a payment plan with the IRS. A lot of people would say, “Oh my gosh, the IRS, I’m so afraid I don’t want to talk to them. I don’t want to deal with them,” but actually that’s the worst step you can take, is not to talk to them. Did the payment plan work out okay? Did it end up being all right that you could pay a little bit over time?

15:06 Dessie: I’m still on it to this day. I owed a chunk and there’s only so much I could put towards it per month. So yeah, it has worked out. I’m making my payments so I haven’t gotten in trouble with the IRS, but it isn’t a new bill now every month that I have to pay. I think too, just thinking about this calendar year and the implications for next tax season, I think now I’m just very closely watching anything financially that comes through the school just to make sure I don’t get into this situation again. I know now there are ways that your department or your college can help you, and making sure that these expenses are processed the way they should be as true education expenses and not as extra in your life. And just keeping an eye on that. I think especially as I get into the fall, I will definitely be following up with my administrators and saying, “Hey, just want to make sure I see this here. Was there something that went with this to make sure that I’m not getting a bill for being over-awarded again, or I’m not having any more tax implications than I already know I will have.”

Saving Money for Taxes When Your Fellowships Do Not Have Tax Withheld

16:08 Emily: Right. At this point, now that you’re so aware and you’re so proactive about everything, are you filing quarterly estimated tax or does your additional tax due not rise to that level of necessity?

16:22 Dessie: It doesn’t rise to that level, but I am always putting stuff aside. Even when there are things that should be categorized in a way that I won’t have to worry about that, I’m still always just taking a certain percentage and putting it aside, because I think in my situation, the worst case scenario is to have what happened this year and be totally surprised and unprepared, because that’s exactly what happened.

16:42 Emily: Can you tell the listeners a little bit about your system for setting money aside? Because maybe they want to know, mechanically, how you do that.

16:48 Dessie: Yeah. I am not an accountant so I don’t have this down to any kind of science. It’s just kind of what I’ve found has worked for me. So anytime that I get any kind of award through the school, whether it be for travel or whatever else, it could be research money, I always take about 30% of that and I put it in a savings account. And that seems to be kind of a pretty safe estimate of you definitely won’t need to pay more than that, and so I think that’s been my system now. Even when I make requests for money, I always keep that in mind, because I think something that I’ve watched other students go through is they ask for exactly what they need, forgetting about that tax buffer. And so you might end up short or paying back necessary money later.

17:33 Emily: Yeah, good idea. I do think 30% is a very good margin, probably more than you’ll need, but better to be on the safe side than on the sorry side, as you definitely found out. Do you have like a separate savings account that you use for that or something?

17:46 Dessie: Yes, I have a savings account that I just don’t touch. I kind of joke with my partner, that it’s like the savings account that you don’t use as a savings account. There is no level of emergency that could make me touch that money. I pretend it’s not there because for all intents and purposes, it’s not mine. It’s the government’s, and I don’t want to end up in a situation. I mean it’s August, right? And I’m still on a payment plan for this past year’s taxes. I don’t want to have to do that again.

18:12 Emily: Yeah, I do the exact same thing. When I was in graduate school, some years…Well, I guess it wasn’t in graduate school, but it was when I did my postbac, taxes weren’t being withheld. I had to pay quarterly estimated tax at that time. I started doing the exact same thing. I set up a separate savings account, I have it nicknamed tax, put money in there as I get money to come in, withdraw from it as I was paying quarterly estimated tax. But I wanted to say that I do the exact same thing as you, which is that I don’t think about that tax savings account as being my money. Right now, when I’m self employed, I also have the responsibility of paying quarterly estimated tax. And so I actually calculate my, or our family’s net worth every month, on the first of the month, and so I calculate two numbers, which is one my technical net worth, which includes the tax money in it, and then what I label as my true net worth, which subtracts that tax savings account balance out. And I say, “Nope, I don’t even think of it as being mine right now because, as you said, I know I just have to hand it over to the IRS in a few months.” I don’t want to think of it as accessible at all, in the meantime. So yeah, thanks for sharing about that.

Final Words of Advice

19:16 Emily: Is there any other final advice around the situation that you would want to tell someone else so they don’t get into the same kind of problems that you did?

19:24 Dessie: Yeah, just kind of recapping what I said. So I think, of course, the conversation that fellowships are untaxed* is just a broader conversation we need to be having in general because I don’t think a lot of people know that. But again, just monitoring how things are being processed for you and if they’re technically being categorized as a fellowship. Then, I think that for the most part students are pretty safe. I don’t want to create mass panic as far as this cap goes. If you’re just talking about you just have an RA or you know, just the little student loans or you just have a TA. I think where you start to get near this cap is when you’re doing a lot of research awards and travel awards and teaching where it’s on top of what you’re already getting. I think for students that might have multiple things going on, like I clearly had, making sure you’re having a conversation and knowing where that line is so that way you don’t cross it because the way that they balance their books is you’re not going to know until you’re far down the road and the money is already spent. It’s going to be the next semester. So just keeping an eye on that and honestly just reaching out and asking your financial aid office and saying “I know that there’s a certain amount of aid that we’re allowed to get. What is my number?” So you can kind of monitor it yourself because I really think that for most people, you’re better off saying, “No, I’m not going to take that award this semester. No, I’m not going to get this or do this now” and waiting, so you don’t cross that line and end up having the money need to be paid back.

[* By ‘untaxed,’ Dessie is referring to the fact that income tax was not withheld for her on this portion of her income, not necessarily that it is tax-free.]

20:44 Emily: Yeah. Or just be aware, as you were saying earlier, that these letters or whatever can be written so that the money goes on top. So it sounds like, at least your university, your department, it wouldn’t be like, oh, your advisor just wants to pay you more or someone wants to just like give you a fellowship. You’re going to run into problems with that. It has to be something that’s justifiable under their system for raising their cap on an exception basis to allow that award to go through.

21:10 Dessie: Right, and I think too, just noting that the people that work in financial aid may not be as familiar with why research money or why conference money is an educational expense. So things that you might see and go through and you think, “Oh yeah, that’s totally an expense for my education. Anyone would see that?” No, you might have to justify it and they might need, you know, justification from your department on why this is important for your education.

21:32 Emily: Yeah. And I will just add that financial aid professionals and so forth, they’re not going to touch this tax issue with you. They’re going tell you to go away if you try to ask them tax questions. But in the area of how much you’re supposed to be awarded and what the education expenses are, they are the experts in that area. So you can definitely go to them with those kinds of questions. Just don’t ask them, “what’s my tax bill going to be?” They’re not going to answer that. But, yeah, among that subject matter, they are the best people to go to, I think. It sounds like you’ve developed a little bit of a working relationship with those people.

22:04 Emily: Dessie, thank you so much for giving this interview and sharing the story. I think it’s really unfortunate how it worked out and also just that you were saying that you didn’t catch all of this until the following calendar year or the following semester, naturally. That’s how these things work. Of course you wouldn’t, but because it happened so late, it sounds like the proper paperwork couldn’t have been pushed through in the past. I just want to ask the concluding question that I ask of all my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another graduate student or early career PhD?

22:34 Dessie: I think asking questions. I think that early and often you should ask questions about the money that you’re getting, where it’s coming from, how it’s classified, and just always not being afraid to shoot financial aid and message and say “Hey, this has come through. Is there anything I need to do with this?” Because I think everyone, us included, but also the financial aid folks would rather be proactive about dealing with a problem rather than getting the early spring email, which was “what is happening, I can’t pay you a couple of thousand dollars.” I think just always asking questions and not being scared to ask about how these things impact you. Outside of academia, people wouldn’t hesitate to ask questions about their paycheck, right? And so we need to kind of be thinking about the same way. If something was different on your paycheck, you would ask why or what’s going on and how you need to deal with it. So just not being afraid to try and talk to people about what’s going on with you so you don’t get in a bind.

23:28 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. And like you said earlier, you don’t have to accept a fellowship. It can just be pushed through. And likewise for some other people, they might not even really be aware of how they’re being paid. They’re just kind of receiving a paycheck and they don’t really know is it from an assistantship. I mean they would know if they were teaching your class, right? They know if it says teaching assistantship, but is it a fellowship, is it an RA, I don’t know. The roles, like what you actually do for each of those things, are pretty much the same. So you might not even be aware until you get a W2 at tax time or don’t get a W2 at tax time, what happened in the previous year. Then, if any adjustments need to have made, then it’s too late, right? Then the tax year has already ended. So totally want to underline that advice — know why you’re being paid, know what kind of tax forms you’re going to receive.

24:10 Emily: I just want to add in a final note for the listeners, if there’s anyone listening who is receiving a fellowship, even a small award, like what Dessie’s been talking about during this interview, you should look into whether or not you need to file quarterly estimated tax. I’m going to link in the show notes my massive article on quarterly estimated tax. And I also have a workshop on that that’s linked from that article. So I’ll link to both those things in the show notes. Please note that the deadlines for quarterly estimate tax are in mid April, mid June, mid September and mid January of every year, usually the 15th of the month or the business day following. So keep those deadlines in mind. If you are receiving a fellowship, you might not have to pay quarterly, but at least you need to investigate and figure out whether or not it’s your responsibility, or whether like what Dessie’s doing, you can just set the money aside and leave it until the end of the year and pay it all at once with your annual tax return.

Loading…

25:01 Emily: Thank you again Dessie for coming on and giving this interview and giving this word of warning to all the other graduate students listening.

25:08 Dessie: Thank you for having me.

Outtro

25:10 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

This Part-Time PhD Student Needs Her Full-Time Income for Her Financial Goals

November 25, 2019 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Patrice French, a PhD student in adult education at Texas A&M. Patrice has a full-time position at her university and is pursuing her PhD part-time. She is paying for her degree through her employee benefits and a small grant she won after searching and applying for over 50 external scholarships and grants. Emily and Patrice discuss her path to the PhD, her decision to maintain her full-time job while in her program, and what she expects the PhD to do for her career going forward. Along the way, they touch on Public Service Loan Forgiveness, repaying consumer debt, side income, investing for retirement, and the positive steps Patrice has taken with her finances over the past few months.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Patrice: The reality at the PhD level is that there’s not a lot of funding for part time students and that’s just something that I had to contend with. I’ve scoured the internet, I’ve looked throughout all of our university. I looked at regional associations tied to my degree and it’s just not a lot out there for part time students, so being prepared to really fit the cost of your education is something that you have to think seriously about because there’s not going to be a lot of financial support for you as a part time student.

Introduction

00:35 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four episode fifteen and today my guest is Patrice French, a PhD student in adult education at Texas A&M. Patrice has a full time position at her university and is pursuing her PhD part time. She’s paying for her degree through her employee benefits and a small grant she won after searching and applying for over 50 external scholarships and grants. Patrice and I discussed her path to the PhD, her decision to maintain her full time job while in her program, and what she expects the PhD to do for her career going forward. Along the way, we touch on public service loan forgiveness, repaying consumer debt, side income, investing for retirement, and the positive steps Patrice has taken with our finances over the past few months. I’m very excited to share her perspective here on the podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Patrice French.

01:39 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Patrice French and she will be telling us about her journey to the PhD as a part time student and a full time worker. So Patrice, thank you so much for joining me today.

01:52 Patrice: Thank you for having me Emily.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:54 Emily: Please tell us about yourself — where you’re in school, who your employer is, where you live, all those kinds of.

02:01 Patrice: Sure. Well, I am currently at Texas A&M University. I’ve been here a little over three years and this is also where I am pursuing my PhD. I am finished with my second year in my program, which is educational human resource development with an emphasis in adult education, but I like to call it adult education for short because the degree name is a little bit long and people often don’t know what that means. Texas A&M, the main campus is located in College Station, Texas, which is approximately a hundred miles northwest of Houston, Texas. So we’re not too far aside from some major cities in Texas.

02:44 Emily: Yeah, that sounds great. I actually have a little bit of a personal connection, I guess, to your field because my mother-in-law made her career in adult education and ultimately rose to the level of principal of an adult school. So yeah that’s what she’s been up to. Tell us your backstory, maybe from high school or college and what you were studying and what brought you to your current point.

From Social Work to Adult Education

03:12 Patrice: Sure. I have a background in social work actually. I have my bachelor’s and master’s in social work. I went to Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, Texas for my undergrad and I got my master’s degree at the University of Michigan, also in social work. So for a little bit of time I was licensed to practice social work in the state of Texas, but while I was pursuing my master’s degree, I learned that my focus on social work was pretty much in the minority because I was more focused on policy analysis, whereas most of my colleagues really wante to work inter-personally with families, children, things like that. I made a strategic decision to build my skill in a way that would support the efforts of social work, but at a macro level. While I was at my master’s program, I was a research intern at a social justice education program and my experience there basically just led me to an opportunity in higher ed doing social justice and multicultural education and basically led to my switch from social work to higher ed, which is where I’ve been for the past 10 years.

04:23 Patrice: My first job outside of my master’s degree, I would definitely say parallels different areas of social work, but I’ve transitioned in some ways to being more entrenched in higher ed where I wouldn’t consider my work to be social work. I did diversity and multicultural education work for four years and I was in St. Louis. I moved from University of Michigan to St. Louis in Missouri. I did that work for four years and then I transitioned to doing academic student success and retention work, where I oversaw unit that was tasked with supporting students who are transitioning to make sure they have their tools and things to be successful for retention, et cetera.

05:11 Patrice: I moved back to Texas about three years ago and some of that was precipitated by a major health event with my father. I was searching at the time, but by happenstance I happened to apply right around the time my father became ill. While I was in Houston, which is where I’m from, being with him, I basically got a really quick offer from Texas A&M. and I said, “well, I guess it’s meant to be that I’m back in Texas.” And a couple months later, I was back and that was in 2016 and I’ve been back since.

05:45 Patrice: As far as my trajectory to pursuing a PhD, I had been thinking about that really since I was in my master’s program and thought that I would work for three years and go back to school and become a social work researcher. But since I’ve kind of floated around outside of social work for so long, I didn’t think that was a good fit anymore, but I really was still interested and ended up exploring different programs either in psych or communication or an education for probably two or three years. I decided to take a break from looking at it because I thought it’d be more advantageous to work. I was not willing to sacrifice my income, and with my father’s health, I just put that on the back burner so I can be closer to him and my family to make sure that they had what they need. I was back at A&M and learned that they had an adult education program in my university and I actually work in the college that also hosts my program. I did some research and just decided to apply and got in. So a year into me working at A&M, I started my doctoral program and I started part time and have been pursuing the program part-time since 2017. It’s been a bit of a journey. I will say that I don’t know if I would recommend working full time and being in a doctoral program part-time or even, I know some colleagues that do it both full time. For me, I don’t really have any major life commitments to where I can’t balance it. I have a dog, but I am child-free, I don’t have a partner. Outside of going to visit my family, which is about an hour or 40 minutes drive away from me, which I usually go twice a month, I don’t have those huge commitments to where that it would make it harder to balance outside of just the commitment of supporting myself and making sure I’m doing what I’m meaning to do with my main employment position. And then just figuring out life and making sure I take care of myself, health wise and things like that. It’s been a lot.

Deciding on a Part-Time PhD

08:11 Emily: I can definitely see how you got to the PhD though. It’s clear from the point when you were in your master’s that the more academic kind of work and training was going to be a good fit at some point and you got there in a slightly different field than you were expecting. That’s great. I think you mentioned a little bit earlier that you didn’t want to sacrifice your income, but was that the main reason to do what you’re doing this way, with full time work and part-time PhD, rather than doing the PhD full time or are those programs not like well-funded or how did you come to that decision?

08:48 Patrice: I believe the year I started at A&M as an employee, they just started a new benefit where staff employees who could pursue a degree and get some tuition assistance. You had to work at the university for a minimum of one year to be eligible for that. The way that it was marketed at the time, I thought it was only $2,000 maximum for your pursuit of your degree or maybe between $2000 and $5,000 just for one year. So I was under the impression that I would be funding most of it myself and my program funds traditional full time students that are able to serve in TA, GA, or RA positions. Funding was not an option for me through my program nor was it at the larger university level because most of the graduate funding and fellowships were full time students. Or all of them actually. I haven’t seen any part time student funding fellowships at the university level. Financially, it would not have worked for me to go back to school full time because I think our average GA/TA salary is about $1,900 a month and most of them fund just traditional fall and spring hours, and the summer. My amount of bills and needing to be available if it was necessary to support my family. It just really wasn’t an option for me and I just didn’t want to sacrifice getting to a place where I was sort of comfortable. I didn’t want to struggle like I had been in graduate and undergrad and so I just decided not to do that.

10:31 Patrice: Up until the time when I got admitted, I was searching furiously for funding opportunities and I think I applied for over 50 external scholarships. I have a very detailed spreadsheet that tracks all of that and I didn’t get anything. I was applying to $500 scholarships from law offices or foundation repairs. It was just everything that didn’t have a stipulation for what a student should be, I applied for, and nothing. Right into the start of my program, I talked to our benefits people at the university and that’s when I learned that the benefit actually is as long as I’m employed at the university full time, I will get up to $5,000 a year in tuition assistance, which breaks down to $2000 for the fall, $2000 for the spring and $1000 for the summer. That, in combination with some fee waivers, which I think equate to about $300 a semester, really covers about 80% of my overall tuition fee costs. That ended up being way more affordable for me to have to come up with maybe $400 or $500 a semester in comparison to $2,600. In my college, our tuition and fees, excluding some of the fees that I don’t have to play as an employee , the tuition is about $2,547 per semester if I’m taking six credit hours. It sounds really inexpensive in comparison to some other institutions and I’m in state as well, so that makes a big difference, but still it wouldn’t be affordable on my salary to pay out of pocket without pursuing any external aid or scholarships or loans.

12:25 Patrice: I made a very intentional decision not to pursue any more student loans because I have them now and they are continuing to accrue interest and things of that nature, based on the payment plans I’m under because I am pursuing the public service loan forgiveness and have been under the income based repayment plan for four years. Now I’m on the pay as you earn, but my balance has increased and although I’m in school, I have chosen to waive my deferment so I can continue to make payment towards my loan so I can increase my qualifications sooner than later. I just didn’t want to occur any more debt and so I decided either I’m paying for this out of pocket as much as I can, so that might mean that it takes me 10 years to finish my degree, or I’m going to try to find some aid. Gratefully, I have been able to cover all of my costs for my program. I also found a small grant that I have to apply for annually, but I’ve gotten each year, that is for $1,500 for the fall and the spring.

13:36 Patrice: My net costs for my degree program has been negative for me out of pocket, meaning that in many cases between the grant and my tuition assistance, I actually get a little bit of a refund that I’m able to put towards books and supplies, software and other general living expenses. It’s actually worked out very well and I’m very grateful that I’m able to pursue my degree pretty aggressively. I think two courses per semester is a lot to be doing while working full time. And I do one in the summer. So far it’s been a very affordable degree. And even with that, I have a very detailed spreadsheet to the penny where I’m able to project how much my total degree is going to cost with fees, tuition, even diploma fee, the dissertation fee, even the regalia, I already haven’t an estimated a cost of total attendance. I’m being very diligent towards those costs, even though they have primarily been covered by my institution.

14:43 Emily: This is a very thorough explanation. Clearly you are on top of all of these different areas, in terms of the, and I’m, I’m glad that you mentioned pursuing all of those like scholarship applications that you did. I mean, only one grant has come of it, which is good, it’s what you needed, but not more than that because it was such a limited pool for part-time options. But it definitely sounds like you’ve been funded to the degree that you need to be and you just have to keep working your full time job and time to do the graduate work on the side. It’s different to work a full time job than to be like a TA, because a TA, tt’s only a 20 hour week per hour per week commitment and you have a presumably 40 hour per week commitment, but also as a professional, you’ve been doing this for a while, you’re very efficient. I can see how this would work out like pretty well, definitely financially, and also how you can manage your time. Before we move on from this, what does the future look like for you? What are your career goals with the PhD?

Post PhD Career Goals

15:56 Patrice: I always wanted to get a PhD for the credentials and that is still my primary goal. When I was admitted to my program, since Texas A&M is such a huge research institution, I wanted to open myself up to opportunities that would expose me to the academy, to what a tenure track faculty position could be for me. Is this something that I can see myself doing? So I’ve been building my experiences to both pursue the degree itself and also build my CV to give me opportunities, through publications, research experience. I’m still on the fence about whether or not I’m interested in an academic career and I’m leaning towards that not being for me and I do feel like I have a lot of skill and I’ve gotten some really positive feedback from my professors and peers in the field at conferences I’ve attended, but I don’t know if it’s for me in terms of the work with the writing and a lot has changed in the academy with how competitive it is. And quite honestly, based on my research, I would likely be taking a pay cut and would essentially be transitioning to a new career track that would take me maybe five to seven years to recoup the my salary that I had built thus far. And I don’t know if I’m willing to sacrifice that. I don’t really foresee myself getting a partner anytime soon, that may contribute to making a change in that decision. Aafter this, I do foresee myself staying in higher education. My current role right now is that I’m in an academic administrative position overseeing a program assessment that’s tied to some accreditation needs. It’s very much an administrative role, but there are lots of opportunities in higher ed that with the PhD specifically will open up opportunities. So I’m not too worried about where I’m going to land. I’m just gonna hold on for dear life for right now so I can finish my degree and then make some decisions about that. I’m crossing my fingers, I should be finished by the end of 2021 with everything. I have a year and a half left of coursework, so I should be done fall 2020, and my goal is to devote 2021 to writing. By 2022 I should be at a place to evaluate where I am and make some decisions, things like that. I don’t know, we’ll see.

18:30 Emily: You anticipated my next question because you had offhandedly said earlier, “Oh, might take me 10 years to finish,” but that definitely does not sound like the plan that you see yourself on, so that’s really, really good to hear.

Commercial

18:45 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money, but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series, as you make changes over the long term. You can find out more at PFforPhDs.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part coaching, part course, and part community. You can find out more and join the wait list for the next time I open the program at PFforPhDs.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Side Hustling for Extra Income

19:59 Emily: So in terms of funding your PhD, we’ve talked about you have your salary. Thankfully you haven’t, it sounds like, had to use your salary directly to fund the PhD. You have your tuition assistance from your employer. You have this grant that you won. But you told me that you also side hustle, so can you tell me about that?

20:16 Patrice: Yes, I am trying to find multiple ways to supplement my income even though I feel like I’m pretty stable. I did buy a home a couple of years ago and so there’s some costs that I’m looking to cover in terms of maintenance and repairs that are eating away at my salary more than I anticipated and I’m trying to recoup my savings. I have done a number of things. I have done freelancing editing work. I am renting out a room in my house with a colleague and friend of mine. I have done a lot of freelancing stuff as well, mostly editing. And something that’s more towards my student loans, I am partnered with an organization that basically connects nonprofit organizations with freelancers that have a level of skill that the organization needs and upon successful completion of a project, that organization will pay my student loans directly in the form of a stipend. And so I’ve done a couple projects. I haven’t done that many because I’m super busy, but that is another way that I’ve tried to indirectly try to pay down some of my debt with my loans even though I still plan on pursuing public service loan forgiveness, but I don’t know if I will continue to pursue that because it’s counted as income. So I did get a miscellaneous 1099 and it’s taxed, so I don’t know how advantageous it is for me to not see those costs directly, and how it affects my taxes. That’s pretty much what I’ve done. I don’t have a lot of time to do a lot of freelance stuff. Before I started, before I moved here, I did Ubering for a while, which was more lucrative for the drivers than it is now, hearing what I’ve heard, because I do still have some peers that drive for it. But I’m pretty busy so I don’t have a lot of times to do work that takes a lot of time, so any way that I can make free money, that’s where I’m kind of looking at now. The rental income is an easy way to do that and it works out both for myself and my friend because she gets to save money because she’s also in a doctoral program and is really looking to save on costs from renting her own apartment. And I’m able to get a little bit extra income that can go to other things.

22:45 Emily: Yeah, I was going to say the rental income sounds like the perfect solution in your situation because a full time job plus being a PhD student plus trying to side hustle where the side hustling involves trading your time for money, that is a lot on your plate and as you said, you’re visiting your family and so forth. The rental income is really just leveraging another asset you have, not your time, but your home, in a new way. That sounds like a really a really good fit. I’ve published an episode on the podcast before about a homeowner who rents out, who at the time was renting out rooms to his friends and how it was really just, while interpersonally challenging in a couple of ways, really overall very beneficial, mutually. So a good situation when you are able to rent to someone that you know and like and want to be around and trust to pay the rent on time and so forth.

Student Loan Repayment as a Part-Time PhD Student

23:38 Emily: You’ve mentioned your student loans a couple of times and your pursuit of PSLF. I meant to say earlier, it actually makes a lot of sense to me if you are into PSLF to not, I guess go to graduate school full time because I think that would have stopped the clock on that, I’m assuming.

23:56 Patrice: Yes. As long as I’m have my employment verified for full time employment, it would not. It still defers my loans automatically, but there is a one-time option to submit for a waiver of the deferment. You have to either stick with it or you don’t, they’re not going to give you the option to go back and forth, so I made that decision before I started, so I never had a lapse in my qualifying payments for that reason. I’m just sticking very diligently to and really connecting with the loan servicer in regards to where I am and I’m making my minimum payments and just chugging away.

24:37 Emily: And I think you may have mentioned earlier, are the student loans totally from your master’s degree or also from undergrad?

24:44 Patrice: They’re a combination. My undergrad degree was, my first two years were fully funded by scholarships and due to some transition and changes, a part of that was there was an increase in tuition of about up to 7% per year. And TCU is a private institution, so that 5-7% on $19,000, it makes a difference. My last two years of my undergrad, I think I took a total out of, I think, $14,000 and my master’s degree, I took out $24,000 and my master’s funding was only to cover my living expenses because I had a scholarship that covered all of my tuition and fees. While I tried to find employment while I was at Michigan, it was getting really tricky, so I just decided to take out the loans. I was only there for a 13 month program anyway, so I figured, let me just focus on my education and get out and just deal with the loans later. Total for both my degrees it’s about $36,000, but my balance is about $37,500 now eight and a half years later due to the accrual of interest and capitalization since I’ve been on the income based repayment plan instead of the standard option. So it’s just sitting there.

26:01 Emily: I’ve also done other other episodes where we discuss PSLF, very common in our community to be either pursuing it or considering it. What do you think about that decision now, eight and a half years in? Was PSLF the right route for you?

26:17 Patrice: I think it is. My salary when I was right out of my master’s degree was about $30,000 a year and it was in a state that took out state and local taxes, so my take home was about $1,800 per month. I think my standard payment at the time would’ve been about $400. That is a little bit under a quarter of my salary, and so I was really intentional about thinking about the options. I know I’m likely going to stay in nonprofit higher ed. That really wouldn’t be too much of a challenge to pursuing other employment options in lieu of a public service option. Really the salary and then my employment options were my main decisions behind that. I’m a little bit antsy about it given the challenges that I’ve been hearing about, but I think by the time that I’m qualified for forgiveness, there will have been…One, I think that any changes they make will affect new borrowers and not existing borrowers. Let’s say they take it away. I think that it won’t affect me. I think a lot of the hiccups that have happened with the borrowers that are qualifying now will have been remedied by the time that I qualify, which honestly should be in 2022, but I have some payments that are under review that I’ve not gotten a straight answer on in over a year. So my date is September 2023. So within 2022 or 23, I should have a qualification for forgiveness. I’m trying to stick to my decision. That’s why I’m on the fence whether or not I’m going to ambitiously start paying them down, or if I should just stick to the minimum payments because it really aggravates me to see my balance to staying. Because I’ve also been able to maintain a taxable adjusted salary that is, that keeps my payments pretty low. I have a very good accountant that’s able to, with my freelance income, to reduce my income a lot to where what’s reported helps to keep those payments low, which is a goal of mine since I am still covering a lot of other things. But I don’t know. We’ll see. If it happens that it no longer is advantageous for me, then I will make plans to pay them down because I am on a pretty ambitious consumer debt plan right now to where I should be done with all of my consumer debt, excluding my mortgage and my student loans, by next year. And so that should free up a lot of salary, especially if I continue to get some supplemental income through renting my room or stuff like that. So if it happens that I want to change my mind, I’ll just start ambitiously paying it down and will get rid of it.

29:19 Emily: You sound, overall, pretty optimistic about the program. I share your optimism.

29:25 Patrice: Cautiously, I’m cautiously —

29:27 Emily: Yeah, very good point. And really since you’ve been on the plan for eight years, it makes sense to hold out for that last 20% and just see it through and hope for the best.

Other Financial Goals

29:40 Emily: Tell about your other financial goals. You mentioned other debt repayment.

29:45 Patrice: Yes. So my goals right now are to really get a hold on my consumer debt. I have a little bit of credit card debt. I have a car that I have a year and a few months left back on that. I actually have been listening to a lot of your podcasts and reading the blog and have put together a debt plan where I think I’m using the avalanche method to really just target one area of debt at a time. I’m targeting the highest interest rate and then just tackling it and then going to the next. I have a pretty robust plan that if I stick to it, I should be done with everything by the end of June. I have a couple of credit cards and I have a car payment that I think has about $6,000 left on it. I had a really good interest rate on that. It has 2% interest on my car. Really, it wouldn’t save me that much. I have a loan for doing some home repairs and I would pay off a year early, a little bit under, maybe 10 months early on my current plan. I’m really just focused on getting the consumer debt down.

30:57 Patrice: I also want to build up my savings because partially me buying a house, there were some unanticipated expenses of repair really early on to me purchasing them. Since I had done so much on the down payment, I didn’t have the savings to do the repairs, so that was part of the reason why I have a loan for doing some of their repairs. By paying off all of this debt, it will free up a lot of my income so I can start saving, which is a big goal. I’d really like to have more of a cushion than I have right now. Besides that, some larger goals are to just do a lot better at my mid-term and long-term planning. I usually would just plan month to month and all my bills are really the same, so they’re on auto repayments. Any overspending I’m doing or not planning ahead is my fault, quite honestly, unless there’s an unexpected expense, like if my tire blew out or something. But a part of it is just me just being too social and liking to go out and drink and eat out when I can easily just eat at home. It’s just being more fortuitous on my budget so that I could meet some of these financial goals and I’m being less reliant on overspending and really trying to plan out.

32:19 Patrice: I actually have a spreadsheet that is between now and 2020 that kind of plans out how much I’m expected to spend on all my bills, which really shouldn’t change. And then as those debt balances go down, I anticipate that my salary is going to go up so I can start planning for more savings and planning around travel because that’s a big thing that I don’t do a good job at. If I’m traveling for a conference, which a lot of that is self funded, or I’m just going to visit friends and stuff, I kind of just figure it out, and usually me figuring out is putting on my credit card and paying it off later, which isn’t the best approach. I’ve actually applied for a credit card that has a really good mileage rate. There are no airports that are really close to me where I have a preferred airline and so I’m really focusing on putting my recurring bills on that card to build up points, so that I can use that for more of my travel instead of just relying on just any old card. I’m trying to be a little bit more savvy with things. I definitely think when I get through with my debt, I won’t really have to worry about trickling back to my credit cards since there will be so much more flexibility in my salary or my take home anyway. That’s about it.

33:40 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you’re tackling now the personal finance side of things with the same kind of diligence and energy that you were in these other earlier areas that we discussed more related to your career. That sounds amazing. There are so many wonderful strategies that you just laid out and so I hope that everyone caught them the first time around. Great stuff that you’re doing right now. How are you doing on long-long-term, like retirement stuff? Does your employer already do a lot of that?

Retirement Savings

34:10 Patrice: Yeah. My previous employer, I worked at and institution in St. Louis, I forget what they matched up to, but after the year I was able to contribute at a matching rate up at least to 5%, but I think I might be wrong.I have a 403b that is sitting, that I haven’t touched, I’m just letting it accrue. And then I have a separate retirement plan since I worked for the state of Texas. They take a little bit longer to get vested in, so they’re contributing an equal amount, which is 7.6%, that I’m contributing each month. But after five years I’ll be fully vested as an employee. Um, so if I ever leave I can just let it stay there, I can come back and it’s a really robust retirement system. I will definitely be here long enough to get vested. Those are my main two things and because of that, I haven’t really pursued any other retirement options such as a Roth IRA or things like that, because I’m well-matched at my institutions and I think it’s the equivalent of a pension retirement with the state of Texas. I don’t think it’s your traditional investment fund. I think it’s fully funded and that my eligibility I think is at 55 years age or the equivalent of I think 20 years of service or something. If I wanted to, if I ended up staying in the state of Texas or at this institution, I would have the option to retire at 55 because I’ve been working here since before I was 30. I think it’s a good option. That’s something I’m paying attention to more readily, but I’ve been contributing to my retirement since I was 22, at a minimum of at least 2.5% of my salary, which was not a lot at the time because I was making $30,000 or $33,000 or whatever. But definitely at a point now I’m maxing out the full contributions and maybe if my salary is freed up once I start paying off my debt and have a more sizable savings and I might take out in a Roth IRA to maximize their savings as well. Or I think I’m also looking into some investments, but that’s kind of a long-term thing. I would feel more comfortable pursuing investments once all of my debt is free, so I’ll have a lot more pocket money to play with, assuming that I’m in the same role I’m in now, making the same salary that I am.

36:41 Emily: Yeah. I can definitely see this as one of the advantages of doing the PhD part-time while working full time is that not only do you have the higher salary, but you have these benefits that graduate students never receive. That’s awesome. And it seems like over the next two, three, four years, a lot of different pieces of your finances are going to get a lot easier, right? That’s going to be paid and PSLF will either come through or you’ll have to focus on paying off in another way. Other consumer debt will be gone. It really seems like…And of course when you finish your PhD and your salary hopefully will change, it’ll really be a pretty nice rosy picture at that time and you’ll be able to pursue the IRA or other types of savings, or whatever lifestyle stuff, whatever you want at that point.

37:29 Patrice: Yes. Yes. That’s my goal. Something I neglected to mention is hat my tuition benefit that the university is actually really smart in this because if you’re pursuing graduate level work, and you get tuition assistance from your employer in excess of $5,250 in a calendar year, anything over that amount would be taxed as income. And my previous institution gave a hundred percent tuition remission, but it was a private institution and tuition was about, I think $25,000 a year. So even if you were pursuing part time, most of my colleagues that were pursuing degrees, they would actually end up owing taxes annually because of that. Then our employer worked out a deal where you can just pay the taxes out of your salary, so it wouldn’t feel like such a big hit. But I don’t have to worry about the tuition assistance being a taxable benefit because it’s right under that mark in a calendar year, which is fantastic.

Financial Advice for Part-Time PhDs

38:32 Emily: Yeah, because I mostly deal with full time students, it’s something that I’m like, “Oh yeah, I remember those numbers, I remember being aware of that,” but it’s not something I’m intimately familiar with, so I’m glad you can tell us about that on the podcast. As we wrap up here, what is your best financial advice for another PhD student? Perhaps a part time student.

38:54 Patrice: I would definitely say, look and find as many resources as you can to fund your education. Depending on your program, there may be funding through grants. For example, I’m on a research project right now, that I’m not being funded on, but they got a little bit of money to fund graduate students for extra work. I know that it may be something to consider between the time you’re already spending working, but there is funding out there within your programs, through a lot of the research that’s being done. It’s really just being proactive to ask for it and also don’t feel like you have to rush to graduate and get it done. That’s something that I had to reconcile with, and I had to keep asking myself, why am I really pushing to get this done by this date? And there’s no real answer to that. So if you are reasonable with your time, that is something to make it really affordable, in terms of whether or not you’re going to pursue self funding or program funding or even things like loans and stuff like that. I have a colleague of mine that she and her husband actually bought an RV and we are a huge tailgating community at Texas A&M and she actually rents out her RV during our football season and that is partially how she’s able to fund her cost of her program. And so I’ve heard of some really creative things in addition to just the taking out loans or paying out of pocket that have helped support them.

Patrice: Unfortunately the reality at the PhD level is that there’s not a lot of funding for part time students and that’s just something that I had to contend with. In doing my exhaustive internet search, I was on some premium scholarship websites where you pay a fee to look in databases. I’ve scoured the internet, I’ve looked throughout all of our university. I looked at regional associations tied to my degree and it’s just not a lot out there for part time students. So being prepared to really fit the cost of your education is something that you have to think seriously about because there’s not going to be a lot of financial support for you as a part time student, even if your program gives a lot of flexibility in the pursuit of your degree, which my program does by offering a number of courses online and then in the evening. So it doesn’t really conflict with my nine to five, eight to five work schedule, but it just is hard. There’s just no way around it , there really isn’t. Maybe for some people that are in a partner relationship that it’s more feasible for them. Thankfully through my benefits I am able to not really worry about my cost, but if I wasn’t, I definitely would be taking a lot more time to pursue my degree because I am very much committed to not incurring any more student loan debt.

41:45 Emily: Yeah, I think the listeners can pretty well trust what you’re saying, when you say I have scoured the internet because you’re obviously very thorough in your work and so it’s disappointing to hear that, but better to be realistic about the situation than to go into it hoping that you’re going to win something that’s just not available to you. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I am so glad to have your perspective here.

42:08 Patrice: Thank you so much Emily. I’m glad I’m able to share.

Outtro

42:12 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Achive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

This PhD Compares Her Experiences at a Unionized University and a Non-Unionized University

November 18, 2019 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Carly Overfelt. Carly received a master’s from Purdue University, which does not have a graduate student union, and a PhD from the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, which has a longstanding graduate student union. Carly compares and contrasts her experiences as a graduate student worker at her two alma maters; she received higher pay and benefits at UMass. She shares the history of the graduate student union at UMass and the nature of her work within the union’s bargaining unit. At the end of the interview, we address the core questions around graduate student unions: Does the university view graduate students primarily as students or primarily as workers? Are graduate students paid well enough for their assistantship work to allow them to pursue their other job of completing their dissertation?

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Carly: A lot of union work and bargaining is holding onto as much of what you already had as you can because unions are not as powerful as they used to be. And so, usually, when you’re bargaining, you’re trying to mitigate something disastrous that the management is doing. They’re usually slashing something, and you are using your collective power to mitigate that as much as possible.

Introduction

00:27 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode 14, and today my guest is Dr. Carly Overfelt. Carly received a masters from Purdue University, which does not have a graduate student union, and a PhD from the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, which has a longstanding graduate student union. Carly compares and contrasts her experiences as a graduate student worker at her two alma maters. She shares the history of the graduate student union at UMass and the nature of her work within the union’s bargaining unit. At the end of the interview, we get to the heart of the question around graduate student unions: Does your university support you in your dual roles as student and worker, or does one eclipse the other? Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Carly Overfelt.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:24 Emily: I am delighted to have on the podcast with me today Dr. Carly Overfelt, and she is here to talk to us about being at two different universities during graduate school, one that didn’t have a union and one that did and the differences between those two experiences. So, Carly, thank you so much for joining me today, and will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

01:44 Carly: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I’m Carly, and I started my graduate school journey at Purdue University where I did a master’s degree in linguistics and then a master’s degree in English. That took me about three and a half years, and then I started a PhD at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst. I finished my PhD in the spring of 2017. My interests were in linguistics and literature. I got interested in supporting linguistic diversity through my teaching. So, the position I have right now is at a small liberal arts college in Minnesota, and I’m kind of an adviser/tutor/instructor for our international students and domestic multilingual students. Yeah, it’s a great job.

Finances while at a Non-Unionized University

02:33 Emily: Very interesting. Yeah. Glad to hear that you’re enjoying that. So, let’s go back to your days at Purdue as a master’s student. So, what was the financial lay of the land at this non-unionized university?

02:48 Carly: Right. So, you know, since I had never been to a unionized university yet, I didn’t really have a comparison point, but I remember, you know, just like so many graduate students- broke all time, you know, my rent was almost 50% of my pay. Which I think is going to sound familiar to a lot of folks. That was the start of my expertise in the side hustle. In addition to teaching a few times a week and having meetings with students in office hours, I was also tutoring three nights a week for about $20 an hour cash. And so, I ended up spending so much of my time during the week on my side hustle that it was really hard for me to perform as well in my courses as I wanted to and to do the research that is necessary to do well. Right. So that was pretty tough.

03:42 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like, were you a TA for the entirety of your time there? That was how you received your stipend?

03:50 Carly: I was. I was teaching a communications class for international graduate students, and the whole time I was there, I was teaching for that program. And sometimes there was a summer version of that that I could teach.

04:06 Emily: Yeah, it’s a little bit surprising to me, just given that Purdue is in a low cost of living area. I mean, we’re already hearing like, okay, you move from Purdue to UMass Amherst. I’d imagine there’s a big cost of living difference there. But even in Purdue, your stipend was only about twice what your rent was or maybe not even that much it sounds like.

04:24 Carly: Right, right. That’s right. And we did have health insurance benefits. Some of that came out of our paycheck, and they were fine. They weren’t as good as what I had through my parents before I started graduate school. But it was like, it was okay.

04:38 Emily: How about dental and vision?

04:41 Carly: Dental and vision was a little bit extra. And they would take that out of your paycheck as well. Some other things I want to note–and these were differences I didn’t notice as much until later–but we did not get paid through the holiday months. So, it was kind of several weeks that we were not getting paid. And we also had hefty fees through our program in the fall semester. And sometimes we would start getting bills for those before we had gotten a full paycheck through our teaching associateships. So, that was pretty tough.

05:16 Emily: Okay. So, you’re saying that your stipend was not a 12-month stipend, but it stopped over winter break and then what about the summer?

05:23 Carly: Right. So, it stopped over winter break, and it didn’t continue for the summer unless you were lucky enough to have a summer class assigned to you, and then it would pick up again in, say, like June.

05:36 Emily: And also, of course, the very common problem of paying fees one time per year or one time per semester. And it’s a real hit to the budget. That’s a really hard thing to cash flow on a grad student stipend. Yeah. OK. So not such a pretty picture.

05:51 Carly: No. Pretty tough.

05:52 Emily: Anything else you want to add to that?

05:54 Carly: No, I think that’s about it. That pretty much covers it.

Finances while at a Unionized University

05:57 Emily: Okay. And then when you moved on to UMass Amherst, you started realizing things didn’t have to be the way they were.

06:05 Carly: Right.

06:06 Emily: So, what was it like there?

06:09 Carly: I was very excited when I heard that they were unionized because I, you know, grew up in kind of a union household. My dad and stepdad both were kind of hardcore union. So, I was like, “Oh yeah, let’s do this!” But I didn’t realize how much it was going to change my financial picture until just like kind of living it. So, a few major differences right away. We were paid a lot more. Maybe not twice as much, but it was at least a 30% increase over–maybe 40% over–what I was being paid before. And that’s just wages, not talking about benefits. So that was noticeable. The fees were smaller, but also it was written into our contract that you could have that spread throughout and taken out of your paycheck, and we were paid through the holidays.

06:58 Emily: I really love the benefit of actually paying something with each paycheck. Because like, I mean fees–it kind of depends. They may be a reality or not, but just if you know what they are and they’re going to come at regular intervals, they are a lot easier to deal with. So, love that. And you said you were paid through holidays, and what about summer?

07:17 Carly: In the summer, it was kind of similar where if you were lucky enough to have a summer class assignment, which in my department was extremely rare, then you could be paid through the summers. So, I still had to, you know, work my side hustle skills, but at least I only had to do that in the summer. Sometimes I would do my side hustles during the week to just sort of help myself with the cushion for the summer. But to put that in perspective, I would do maybe one four-hour, you know, side gig shift per week to sort of just keep my relationship with that employer, and then work during the summer more hours for that kind of side hustle. So I actually was able to spend time on research and writing and conferences. I think I went to one conference the whole time I was at Purdue in terms of presenting, and then that switched to actually having the time to work towards that. And I was going to maybe two conferences per year when I was in my PhD program because I had time to do it. It was great.

What about Travel Funding and TA-ships?

08:20 Emily: Actually, I’m glad you brought up conference travel because that’s kind of another benefit that may or may not be in place. So it sounds like, because you weren’t side hustling so much, you had more time to go to conferences. Was there additional funding available for that sort of thing, or were you paying for that out of your own pocket?

08:34 Carly: I was usually paying for that out of my own pocket. There was a little bit more funding in that department, but it wasn’t part of the union contract bargaining. I think it was just a department that had different maybe funding priorities, you know, just generally for their graduate students. I don’t think I’m remembering this incorrectly, I think that was something that was just department-specific.

08:58 Emily: Gotcha. And were you also a TA throughout your PhD? Like that was your position every term?

09:05 Carly: I was. I was a TA, first teaching for the writing program, and then teaching for the English department, and getting my stipend through that and benefits which were very good and actually better than the benefits I have in my full-time alt-ac job right now.

09:24 Emily: What do you mean by that? What makes them better?

09:27 Carly: So, the deductible and coinsurance strategies that we usually get through our employer benefits. You know, when you lose the power of sort of negotiating for that and it just sort of gets handed to you from on high, it doesn’t take long to start seeing the differences in what are you going to pay in copay, what types of services are covered, and that kind of thing.

Paid Leave and Other Union Benefits at UMass Amherst

09:51 Emily: Gotcha. Let’s see, you talked about leave over the holidays, but–was built in the contract and maybe in contrast to when you were at Purdue–any like other kinds of paid leave? Or maybe you didn’t access this but you know about it, like maybe parental leave or short term disability leave, anything like that?

10:12 Carly: Yeah, there were different leaves that were available. There was even vacation in our contract. Of course, no one ever took it because you’re teaching, right? So, it was pretty rare for anyone to actually, you know, do that. But if you were savvy enough about your union contract, you kind of notice those things. Or if you were sort of touching base with your union reps enough to sort of learn about some of the more specific–because a lot of times, and this makes sense, a lot of times residents were thinking about the pay. That’s really the main thing that they’re concerned about. But there are sort of these other things that you learn about that you have those benefits. If you’re sort of plugged into the union a little bit more and reading their emails and doing all that–it takes a lot of time though. Right?

10:56 Carly: And you know, grad students are always very busy. So, you know, no shame for people who didn’t know about some of those details. But if you were plugged into it, there were different things. Some things that, you know, were negotiated in the contract were, like, paid parking. So, if you just want to park on campus as a grad student employee, everyone knows that can be very expensive. But the union had actually negotiated certain rates for graduate student employees to lower those costs. So, another benefit was, one of the bargaining years that I was there, the bargaining team negotiated access to all-gender restrooms where you’re working. So, in these huge campuses, right? You know, it’s not the same experience for everyone in every department, every building. And that’s something that you should be able to use the restroom and feel comfortable and safe. And that’s something that was actually written into the contract. So, that was a huge one.

11:53 Emily: Yeah, that’s super interesting. Yeah, interesting that we get down to that level of sort of granular detail, right? Like you were saying, it’s not just the pay. There are all these benefits and other working conditions that can be brought to the table. And like you were saying, I think something that is useful to think about is that when you have a union in place, it sort of brings all the disparate parts of the different departments–for example, like graduate students in different schools and different departments at the university–it brings them to the same like playing field and gets them all the same benefits. And it’s not like there’s going to be this level of pay and benefits over here and this over here. Is that correct?

Departmental Differences in Pay Rates and Raises

12:35 Carly: There was still some difference in pay. So, for example, I worked for the writing program my first few years and we had the lowest hourly pay. It was still way better than what I was getting at Purdue. I think it was something like $22 an hour when I started at UMass, but there was a minimum wage on campus for graduate student work, and we were making that minimum wage. So, if you’re coming from a different department that’s more well-resourced or you know, maybe use this recruiting tool, then you may get paid more. My husband was in the linguistics department and he got paid more than me, and I just was always annoyed about that.

13:15 Emily: So, the union helped establish the minimum wage across the university, which your department said, “Yup, that’s what we pay.” Did the union also negotiate the pay rates at other departments? Or is that just the department saying, “Okay, we see the minimum, but we’re going to be paying more than that?”

13:33 Carly: I think that that’s what other departments would do. I can’t speak specifically to that, but I think that that’s how the disparities–and you know, when I say disparity, it was pretty minimal. It wasn’t a huge difference among the departments–but there was a difference. So that was sometimes annoying to me. But yeah, when they would negotiate raises, it was like a general raise. And so, how that might work out in particular departments might vary.

Additional Experiences with the Union

13:59 Emily: I see. So, aside from just being a student at the university, did you have experience with the union as not just a student?

14:10 Carly: I did. You know, I was already sort of interested in unions and so I was a steward at first, which means that you maybe come with someone to a meeting with their supervisor that they think might be a little bit tricky, and you come and you’re sort of a support person for them. And then I was in the leadership for the graduate student bargaining unit part of our union, because we were part of a–and some people who don’t know, there’s usually a much bigger organization like the United Auto Workers was ours. And then the graduate students at UMass were one shop as they say, one workplace, in that. So, I was in the leadership of that. And then I kind of just kept getting more involved and I volunteered on the joint council, which is where all of the shops, the workplaces, kind of have representation. And then eventually I was on the executive board as the secretary and that’s where you have like the president of the union and this would be over the entire union for us. It was UAW 2322. And so we had, I think there at the end about like 3000 members. So, there was a lot of opportunity to be involved and to meet different people. And so that was an interesting perspective.

15:21 Emily: Yeah. What an interesting opportunity for, maybe not work experience, but volunteer experience that is very professional as part of your graduate experience. Like, yeah.

15:33 Carly: Yeah. I have used a lot of that experience in, you know, my work even now working on committees with people who have extremely different backgrounds than myself. Just collaborating towards a common goal. Most of everything that I did was volunteer-based, but something that people don’t know sometimes is that, if your graduate students are unionized, sometimes there are paid positions within that shop, so to speak. That is a fellowship or assistantship that comes with the pay and benefits, you know, that we’re talking about. So, sometimes people would step into one of those roles out of their teaching fellowship and do one of those leadership roles for a year and then step back into the funding stream of their department, which was really great to have that kind of opportunity.

16:20 Emily: Yeah, that’s kind of some more jobs to go around. I guess.

16:23 Carly: That’s right.

Commercial

16:27 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series as you make changes over the long-term. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part-coaching, part-course, and part-community. You can find out more and join the waitlist for the next time I open the program at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

History of the UMass Amherst Union

17:41 Emily: So, you kind of talked about what your experience was again as a student at UMass. When was the union at UMass Amherst established?

17:50 Carly: This was established in the 1990s, so by the time I was there, it was a really longstanding, well-established union, sometimes even seen as a model for organizing in other places. Around the time I was there, the University of Connecticut organized as well. And so, yeah, there wasn’t a lot of memory of what that was like at first, although I think it was kind of tense, and I believe that the students did go on strike to help create that union. When I was there, when we would bargain every maybe two or three years–I think that’s right–it could get a little bit tense with the relationship in terms of like the bargaining team and the administration. But other than that, usually it was pretty calm. A lot of people didn’t know that we were unionized, which was kind of interesting and a little discouraging. If you’re involved in the union, you’re like, “Hey, you know, this is like this really great thing that’s happening here.” But yeah, so it was interesting.

18:52 Emily: So, while you were in graduate school, it sounds like since there were contracts being renegotiated every two or three years, did you see any changes year over year to those contracts?

19:06 Carly: For sure. So, we always would bargain–I’m now using the word “we” to just being “we the union,” I wasn’t on the bargaining team–but we always negotiated for higher wages. So, it was usually between a 2-3% raise. I’d want people to know that when you’re talking about one and 2%, you’re usually just keeping up with the cost of living. So, we get excited when it’s 2-3%, right? And you’re just getting a little bit higher than that.

19:33 Emily: Is that 2-3% over the two-to-three-year period or is that every year within that period?

19:40 Carly: Yeah, so because it was usually stepped up. So, maybe it would be 1% for the first year and then 2% for the second year, or something like that. And so, you would see gains over cost of living, I guess, is the important point. You know, one thing that people don’t think about sometimes is that if you’re not getting a raise that at least equals cost of living, your employer is paying you less money for the same work. And that’s one of the benefits of the union experience. You start to think in those terms a little bit, which everyone benefits when they’re kind of thinking about that for themselves. I guess the major point I want to make is that it was over the cost of living.

How About Changes in Fees?

20:21 Emily: Yeah. How about the fees? Because I mean, you said already that the fees were at least set up so that you could pay them with each paycheck. But something I’ve seen at other universities is, not only is the pay stagnant, but the fees are increased. The out-of-pocket fees are increasing. Did you see any changes to that fee structure while you were there?

20:43 Carly: I think our fee structure stayed about the same. I don’t remember any major changes with the fees. So, that’s not one thing, but maybe a different example of a gain would be the health insurance difference. So actually, and this is sort of a larger context and other union leaders that you interview can probably corroborate this, but a lot of union work and bargaining is holding onto as much of what you already had as you can because unions are not as powerful as they used to be. And so, usually when you’re bargaining, you’re trying to mitigate something disastrous that the management is doing. They’re usually slashing something and you are using your collective power to mitigate that as much as possible. That’s going to sound really cynical to some folks, but when we’re talking about the benefits side of things, it just is true.

21:33 Carly: So, for example, the insurance turned into kind of a co-insurance the first year I started. So, I don’t remember what it was exactly the year before I started, but I remember that they upped it to like a $5,000 deductible, which was a huge difference from before. And the union over time and a lot of effort was able to cut that to $2,500. That’s half. Right? Still wasn’t as good as it was before, but with the rising costs of health insurance and just unions just being what they are in the U.S. right now, that was what they were kind of able to do. You wouldn’t feel that difference if you don’t have like a major accident or a chronic illness, but for people who are experiencing that, it was a major difference for them.

Any Downsides or Tradeoffs with the Union?

22:20 Emily: Yeah. I appreciate you making the point about it’s not necessarily about seeing gains, like while again just a beneficiary of the contract, but rather you don’t know behind the scenes what is being pushed back against, you know, what changes might have been had there not been some bargaining power there on behalf of the student workers. Were there any downsides or tradeoffs you would say for the union being in place at UMass Amherst?

22:50 Carly: Right. So really the major thing is that you’re going to pay union dues, and depending on what state you live in, that might look different. So when I was at UMass, it was 2% which is something like two hours worth of labor, I think is the way that they figure that. And so there was the option to be an agency fee payer and now we’re kind of getting into the legislation around union membership and that kind of thing. And if you didn’t want to pay the 2%, and you could be an agency fee payer and pay 1.7% because of the laws in effect in Massachusetts at that time. Somewhere like Indiana, you could get away with paying zero, but you’re still covered because you’re in the bargaining unit. You still get all those benefits, anything that they bargain you get. If something terrible happens in your workplace, like you’re sexually harassed, the union is behind you 100% and they do all of the things that they would do for anyone else.

23:48 Carly: But then you’re either not paying the dues, somewhere like Indiana, or you’re paying a smaller amount. And so at UMass Amherst it was 1.7 or 2%. You’d be surprised how many people chose the 1.7. And I understand that because people are thinking, I want as much of my paycheck as possible. But you know, from my perspective it’s like, “Pay the 2% and be a voting member.” That’s kind of changing. There are some changes with legislation around that. I’m actually not sure how long Massachusetts will be able to do that. I think they’re about to go to a system where they can’t require that 1.7% anymore. But so, right. Paying dues. Something that people think about is a potential trade-off would be maybe the attitudes on campus around the union. Do we have an adversarial kind of relationship with the university? And that kind of thing.

24:40 Carly: And not really, I mean, if you’re on the bargaining committee, it could get kind of tense with the administration during that time, as I said before. But being part of the union or being a union member from my experience, didn’t make like my advisor feel differently about me. It didn’t make me seem like a troublemaker, you know. It was just, it was kind of normal because the union had been there so long. If I had been there during like the initial fight, I guess you could say it might be different.

Other Union Groups on Campus

25:09 Emily: Yeah, I can definitely see how that could be the case. But with a union in place for decades, it’s just kind of part of the landscape now. Were there any other union groups on campus? Like adjuncts or faculty or postdocs or staff members, anything like that?

25:23 Carly: Yes. So the postdocs were in the same union with us. They were a different shop, but within the same union. And they were you know, maybe like less active because they were usually on campus for maybe one or two years. The faculty were also unionized, but they were in a different union. The staff were unionized and they were in a different union. And then also I think Massachusetts at that time had legislation where any contract work that they did on campus, like construction, etc., they had to hire union workers or at least there were some incentives to doing that. So, If we marched around with signs about something like the co-insurance issue, we had support from all different directions. And sometimes we would have events and actions, you know, together. But I remember specifically one time marching across campus with a sign and the guys over here on the forklift doing whatever they’re doing construction-wise, like kind of honking and supporting us. So, it was kind of a cool way of being part of a community on your campus as well.

26:24 Emily: I’m really glad to get this picture of an established union for the graduate students and postdocs–or postdocs separately, different shop–but then also just pretty much most people on campus, right? Being part of one union or another. So it’s a very normalized part of the culture. So this is a very, I guess maybe could say like quiescent situation. Like, it’s just this is how things are at that university. So we may hear in other interviews I do in the next few months from some different situations where unionization is a newer concept or maybe only the graduate students are unionized, not other people.

26:56 Carly: Right.

Anything Else About Your Union Experience?

26:56 Emily: I don’t know. So it’s really interesting. I’m really glad to have your perspective there. So, anything else you want to add on this before we wrap up?

27:03 Carly: You know, I would say, just looking back on my time at Purdue, I remember that they made a change with our health insurance benefits once where suddenly like birth control was not going to be covered at all whatsoever. It didn’t matter what your doctor said, if you needed it to live, it doesn’t matter. Right. And I remember being really angry about that and not feeling like I could do anything. If that had happened at UMass Amherst, hell no. That would not have gone without a fight and it probably would have eventually gotten into the contract that that has to be covered. And it was covered. That kind of thing was covered through our insurance. So, you know, just looking back, you think a lot differently, and I feel really grateful that I was part of that and I was actually able to do research and writing, which is what you’re there to do. So, it was great.

27:48 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like your experience at Purdue, versus at UMass, that you were much more supported as like a well-rounded student, I guess you could say. Which is kind of a funny thing to say when we’re talking about unions because we’re really focused on employees, right? Like the important part is that you were an employee of the university and therefore were part of this bargaining unit and so forth. But what I’m thinking of is that you really were supported more as a whole student rather than at Purdue, it sounds like you were treated like you’re a TA. In terms of the relationship between the university and you, that’s what they cared about. You’re serving as a TA, that’s what you’re being paid for, et cetera. Maybe you had other types of relationships with other people there, but in terms of the administration, they saw you as a worker who was just there to perform some task.

Grad Students: When are you Working versus Studying?

28:41 Carly: I see your intuition, totally, but it’s almost the opposite. And let me kind of explain that. So, at Purdue, if there was pushback about something like pay, et cetera, the rationale that the university would give is this is your stipend, this isn’t wages. You’re a student and this is a stipend that you get. Because if they thought about us as workers, then they would have to reckon with what are we getting paid hourly, right? What does that calculate to? And that was some of the rationale against some agitation to unionize while I was there. Actually there was some movement towards that, which is a whole other story. But yeah, that was usually their argument if someone had to complain about something. At UMass, they saw us as workers more than at Purdue, and we benefited from that.

29:31 Carly: But sometimes there was still a little bit of that. If there was something that someone’s complaining about, if they could benefit by seeing you as a student for these purposes and as a worker for these purposes and they could work the system to sort of benefit in certain ways. And usually when we insisted on being seen as workers, that’s when we would usually do the best. So, it’s kind of interesting that you say that because it kind of gets us into the heart of that question is like, when are you working and when are you studying? And I would argue that you really have two jobs. One is the thing that you’re getting your pay and benefits for, and the other thing is your research and writing and thinking. And that’s also your job.

30:09 Carly: And so, if you’re at a place where you’re unionized, you can do both of those jobs. If you’re at a place that isn’t, you may find that you’re only doing one of your jobs because the rest of your time is your side hustle to try to kind of make up for the pace. So, that’s kind of a long-winded way of saying that you’re really hitting at the heart of the question, which is when are you a student? When are you a worker, and why does that matter? What are the implications for that?

30:31 Emily: I’m so glad that we got to that additional level of insight on this. I guess that I was thinking more so, and you brought this up too, is like that the university maybe in a nonunion situation sees that their graduate students are both employees and students, and they’re going to do whatever’s best for them in terms of, do I want to treat you more as a student? Do you want to treat you more as an employee? Well, we’re just going to do whatever is in our best interest. The dual relationship in that case can work against the student worker. Whereas, it sounds like what you’re saying, at least in the case when you have unionized in terms of your work, that is more protected, and then you as an individual can have that protected part of your compensation, your benefits and so forth, be able to enable you to do the other part of your job as you said, which is actually what you’re in grad school to do, like kind of scholarship and your own professional development. Does that sound right?

31:31 Carly: Yep, absolutely.

Financial Advice for Early-Career PhDs

31:32 Emily: Okay. I’m so glad we got there, and so last question as we wrap up, Carly, which is just what I like to ask everyone. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

31:43 Carly: I would say, and this is right from what we were just talking about, which is what you’re doing is work, and it’s labor. And don’t forget that, and think about what it’s worth. And when you’re doing things, think about how is that coming back to you in terms of hourly work. So, thinking about how much time you’re spending on different components of your teaching and your research and your writing, and how is that coming back to you and what’s it worth to you? Sometimes people say don’t do anything for free. Maybe sometimes, but like know what you gave away, right? Know what was the value of that. And it has really helped me think about like my career steps afterwards and thinking about what I’m worth and what I want. So yeah, what you’re doing is work. It is.

32:32 Emily: Well, thank you so much for this interview, Carly. I really enjoyed speaking with you about this really sort of topical and timely issue in getting your perspective from those two different institutions you’ve been part of. So thank you.

32:46 Carly: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

Outtro

32:49 Emily: Well, listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Meal Prepping Has Benefitted This Prof’s Time, Money, Health, and Stress Level

November 11, 2019 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Brielle Harbin, and assistant professor at the Naval Academy. Brielle realized early on in grad school that she had to reform her eating patterns, and she slowly worked her way into meal prepping. She describes her current meal prep practice, including what she eats and when she shops and cooks. Meal prepping is an excellent practice for early-career PhDs as it almost always saves time and money and improves health. Brielle outlines a perfect first step for people who want to start meal prepping.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Brielle: And just start off with a very reasonable goal. Say, for a month, I’m going to meal prep my breakfast and I’m just going to try and get into the practice of preparing that and figuring out what that is. And then once that’s under your belt, then you can add, I think the next thing I added was a morning snack. So okay, now I’m doing the morning snack and once I had that under my belt, then I did lunch. Don’t try and go 0 to 100 that that’s not going to happen. So be very realistic about what’s the easiest thing that has the least amount of barriers for you to be successful and start there.

Introduction

00:40 Emily: Welcome to the personal finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season 4, episode 13 and today my guest is Dr. Brielle Harbin, a new assistant professor at the Naval Academy. These days, Brielle is a skilled meal prepper, but things weren’t always that way. She tells us how her cooking and meal planning has evolved over her years in grad school and her post doc and describes the sustainable, flexible system she developed. Brielle’s commitment to meal prepping, has reaped benefits in her time, money and health. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Brielle Harbin.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:23 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Brielle Harbin, who is going to be speaking to us about meal prepping, which is a topic that I am so excited to learn from her about. So Brielle, will you please tell us a little bit about yourself?

01:36 Brielle: Sure. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Brielle Harbin and I am a political scientist by training. I got my PhD at Vanderbilt. I graduated in 2016 and I then went to the university of Pennsylvania for post doc and I was there for three years. And now I am actually beginning in my very first week of being an assistant professor and I have my new job at the Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland. So I now live in Annapolis, Maryland.

02:10 Emily: That is amazing. And thank you for taking the time out of this first week to speak with us.

Cooking Habits Before Meal Prepping

Emily: Let’s take it all the way back to when you were in graduate school, before you got into meal prepping. What was your starting point with respect to cooking and how you managed your food and everything?

02:28 Brielle: Sure. I was very fortunate that I always liked to cook. I think I cooked my first Thanksgiving dinner when I was in seventh grade. So I’ve always had a passion for cooking. When I was in grad school, I learned pretty quickly, especially the first semester when you’re taking coursework and you just have so many things that are being thrown at you that one of the biggest time sucks is going to get food. So that was quickly on my list of things to try and figure out how I can minimize the amount of time. It took quite a while for me to do that, and I can get into some of the different phases that I went through in that, but I started off with just, “I know I need to do this, but how can I do this when I don’t really have that much time?”

03:19 Emily: And are you speaking now about cooking in general or like cooking in an efficient way? Time efficient.

03:26 Brielle: Yeah. Trying to cook in a time efficient way. Because you know, as someone who loved cooking, I would always do it more in a social way. So I’d have people come over and it’s like, “Oh, I’m going to cut this and I’ll sit down and I’ll chat.” But when you’re in grad school, you don’t really have that liberty. I had to figure out, okay, how can I, one think and create a plan for what I’m going to cook, and then I need to think about, okay, when am I going to get it? Where am I gonna get it from? How am I gonna store it? How am I going to pay for it? It just became a much bigger logistical issue, then from just enjoying to do it with family and friends.

04:08 Emily: Yeah. It sort of sounds like cooking went from maybe more of like a hobby and an enjoyable activity to okay, I have to feed myself. It has to be monetarily efficient. It has to be time efficient, because there’s no slack in my schedule and in my budget for another way of doing things, at least not on a regular basis. So, we just mentioned a couple broadly a couple of barriers: going to obtain food, the budget, the amount of time it takes. Is there anything you want to go more in depth on about when you were trying to move towards what ultimately became meal prepping, what was maybe holding you back from being fully successful with it during graduate school?

04:49 Brielle: Well, one, I just think I was unrealistic in terms of how much I was spending. I didn’t have a great sense of how big of a cost it was. And so one of my earliest steps in trying to create a process was actually tracking how much I was spending on eating out. The way that my brain works is I need to have some type of motivation to help keep me, especially if time is zero-sum and you know, I have a lot of things competing. So when I saw the number of how much I was spending on eating out and then thinking about how much time it takes if my order is wrong and I’m unhappy with the meal, it just didn’t make sense anymore. I think, and I’ve talked to a lot of friends because everyone always asked me about my meal prepping, I think a lot of people don’t have a strong sense of how much they’re spending because you know, it’s a coffee here, it’s a quick run to, you know, whatever restaurant there and you never really aggregate the data. But as a social scientist, I guess this is my quantitative brain coming to bear. I wanted the data and once I saw the data, it was pretty ugly.

06:00 Emily: Yeah. That’s interesting that you bring that up because I feel like there’s a couple of different styles right with this. So there’s the style of what you were just saying. Maybe eating out quite frequently or making small trips to the grocery store and it’s sort of dribbling out money and dribbling out time and it is hard to, to keep track and add up what all that is if you’re not doing it quite intentionally versus like the meal prep approach is more like, okay, you’re going to do your shopping trip — maybe it’s once a week, whatever it is, a certain frequency, it’s a big trip — and then you’re going to do this big investment of time to do all the prep. And so it feels like a lot for the day or two it takes to do that. But then it pays off so much the rest of the time and you’re not dribbling out time and dribbling out money on continuing to shop and prepare food and so forth. It’s really a reallocation of time and money and like you were saying it, you become more aware of how much you’re spending in both of those areas with the meal prep, but it doesn’t mean it’s more in money or time than doing it the other way. It’s just your awareness is different of it, right?

07:01 Brielle: Yeah. The biggest thing and when I started my meal prepping, I wasn’t always saving a huge amount of money. I was always saving something because eating out can get pretty expensive pretty quickly. But the biggest changes were occurring in the amount of time I was just traveling, having to go places and whatever. If there’s traffic and all the different things that can hold you up, that was just consuming a lot of time and actually creating quite a bit of anxiety for me around if I’m going to lose my parking space so then I have to go at this time. It’s just a lot of brain space that it was taking up for met that seemed like a not great use of my time.

07:42 Emily: That’s another really interesting thing for me to hear. I’ve become more, I think, sympathetic over the years, as my life has gotten more full, to the advantage of totally simplifying decision making, and not having to make a decision in the moment of, “okay, where am I going to go eat and when is it going to be and what am I going to eat.” If it’s just like it just in this one small area of what are you going to eat, if I’ve already decided that in advance, it really is kind of, for me, a load off my mind, so I’m sure other people come to the same decision maybe in terms of routines that they go through in their daily basis or maybe they always wear the same types of clothing or whatever. There’s lots of ways that we can simplify our decision making and preserve that energy for other areas of our life and planning your meals is one of those areas.

08:27 Brielle: Yeah, I’m really into different professional development things and time saving. I’ve listened to several podcasts that are just about that. And I think, I can’t remember what I read or what I listened to, but I remember reading that, I think President Obama always wore a similar outfit because he didn’t want to have to waste the mental energy. And I was like, well, if it’s good enough for President Obama, it’s good enough for me. That really resonated with me and helped me a lot.

Getting Started With Meal Prepping

08:56 Emily: Okay. So you’re in graduate school and you have this eating out habit and this lovely hobby of cooking, but it has to become a little bit more utilitarian maybe overtime. Now it seems like, or let’s say in your post doc, prior to your move, you got to a really great spot with your meal prep. Can you tell me about how you did that? How did you make that transition?

09:22 Brielle: Beginning, and can I go back for a second to grad school, the way that I was able to make that transition, I actually started with the buddy system. I had a really good friend that I met actually the day of our orientation at Vanderbilt and he just happened to love to cook too, and also had a habit of doing it and similar stressors that were coming into life. Since we were in different departments and had different life things that were coming up at different times, I think, I can’t remember, I’m pretty sure I started it. I think he was taking an exam and I just went over there with three days worth of food, so that he didn’t have to think about it. And he was like, that is really nice. When I was going through a big exam, he came over with three days of something for me and then it kind of became a friendly competition because he has a Caribbean background and so all the things that he was very familiar with were not foods that I had before. It became, “Ooh, let me introduce you to this food that I love and that food” and it became a social thing, which outside of the efficiency question, which is nice to have a friend in to bond that way. I always tell people it’s not always realistic and I frankly don’t want to eat everybody’s food, but if you have that opportunity, it’s a really great way to mix up the meal prep process and when you are kind of at the height of all the things on your plate, maybe you have someone who’s not as busy and is willing to step in for you. So that really helped. Once I started with that, I never really fully got consistent every week in grad school with meal prepping just because honestly you have so many things going on that I think if you’re 50/50, that’s a good goal to have with meal prep.

11:14 Brielle: But once I moved to the postdoc, I realized this is less stressful now, I don’t have as many things on my plate, and I was craving stability. Honestly, I was just so stressed out during grad school and I’m feeling some of the effects of being post PhD in terms of the stress level that it has on your body, and I really felt and craved eating for holistic health. I actually briefly had a blog where I was kind of getting into different foods, how they make you feel, the effect that they have on your body, so I was doing all this research and then trying to incorporate these ingredients into my weekly meal prepping. It just became, after awhile, I think it was June in 2017, I just said, I want to, for two months, meal prep every Sunday. I’m going to do this for two months and then I’ll see how it feels. I’m going to take pictures on Facebook for accountability because that’s what we do these days. After two months I just felt so much better. I was getting better sleep, I was just feeling less stressed out during the day and like I was better powered in terms of my energy that I just stuck with it.

12:36 Emily: I love that approach of setting yourself a challenge right over a set period of time to really put your all into it and then decide at the end of it, was it worth it or was it not? I talk about this sometimes in the context of what I call frugal experiments. And meal prepping is a big frugal experiment, right? That’s a big, big timeline and these could be very minor, but I really just love the idea of having a set in advance, fixed period of time to have an experiment and evaluate the results at the end of that. It sounds like at the end of that period you were ready to keep rolling because you’d experienced so many advantages.

Meal Prep Routine

Emily: Can you tell me about what is the system that you came to? You’ve mentioned Sunday already, so just tell us what is the meal prep process for you?

13:23 Brielle: It started off where I was on Thursday and ended up being on the Fridays because I was usually tired on Friday afternoons. I would think about what is it that I want to eat for the next week and I would come up with a shopping list. I’m super organized and so I always went to the same grocery stores so I knew exactly which section everything was in. I created my shopping list by sections so that I could just get in and get out because I love to cook but I hate grocery shopping. Behind laundry, it’s the only thing I hate more in terms of just life stuff. I would do on Friday the shopping list and then on Saturday I always went to a morning spin class that was fairly close to the grocery store that I would go to. So I’d always go to the same class and immediately after go to the grocery store on Saturday morning and then on Sunday and not at a particular time, just sometime on Sunday I would actually cook the food.

14:23 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s a pretty common lay out for a meal prepper, right? To do the prep on Sunday and do the shopping on Saturday. I’ll start interjecting some of my own thoughts here at this point in the interview because meal prepping is something that I have tried maybe a little bit half-heartedly and not been very successful with. I definitely agree that you need to separate the shopping from the cooking. It’s all too much to do in one day. For me, trying to do all the cooking that I would eat for the week — and actually this is when I had a family, so it’s actually a lot of food — I was exhausted by the end of six hours or something and I was like, I haven’t even gotten through everything I planned and I felt like an abject failure. So tell me for the actual, on Sunday when you’re doing the meal prepping, what are you doing? What foods are you cooking? Are you making components that you then assemble into meals right then? Or are you making things that you’ll be assembling later?How does it actually work for you?

15:25 Brielle: So at some point, and I don’t remember exactly when this happened, I realized that I was having a challenge in my meal prepping because I really didn’t like the Tupperware I was using. That seems like such a small detail, but if you want to transport it and then microwave things, Tupperware can get pretty gross pretty quickly. Especially I would use a lot of curries and things like that. The big thing that shifted my process was getting Pyrex, and they are a little bit more expensive, but it’s actual glassware. I actually separate each one of my lunches into a different Pyrex bowl and I started off where I was trying to prep salads and I think that’s probably the most common question I get. How do I do that? And so for me, I always just put the leafy greens in one of the Pyrex things and then I have the component pieces in separate ones and then the sauce in a third smaller one, and then I combine it when I’m ready to eat, just because you don’t want to have a soggy salad.

16:37 Emily: I want to be clear about what I’m imagining here. I’m imagining you on a Sunday, you have your five, or seven, or however many you’re doing, bowls for your greens and you have your five, or seven for the toppings and then you have your five or seven dressing separately. All those are like individually packaged already starting on Sunday, is that right?

16:25 Brielle: Yes. I don’t actually have five separate for the dressing. I usually just use a Mason jar and made the bigger one and then I would just pour it into the smaller one because that’s a pretty easy clean. But yeah, otherwise you’re correct. I have a lot of pictures and posts I did on Facebook that showed my five dinners, because I usually do five, five lunch and five dinner.

Commercial

17:24 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money, but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series, as you make changes over the long term. You can find out more at PFforPhDs.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part coaching, part course, and part community. You can find out more and join the wait list for the next time I open the program at PFforPhDs.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Meal Prep Recipe Ideas

18:39 Emily: Okay, you’ve talked us through salads. What are some other common meals or foods that would show up for you?

18:46 Brielle: I make a little bit of everything. I think one of the biggest things I tackled was getting bored with things. I had some regular meals that I would make, and then, after a while, I realized I think I’ve gotten tired of at some point or another, shrimp, and chicken, and all these kinds of things. I became a master at Googling ingredients and then finding new things that I would experiment with. Through that process, I figured out sometimes, you know, a picture looks nice, but when you get into the details of the recipe, it’s like all these elaborate things and all these mini micro steps that take a lot of time, so I use them for inspiration, but I didn’t always follow recipes one-to-one.

19:39 Emily: Just to follow up on that — do you have any go to resources to find, let’s say recipes specifically designed for a meal prepping or are you more adapting recipes? Not necessarily for that purpose, but just you do it on your own?

19:53 Brielle: I don’t necessarily do it for meal prep specifically, but I found a couple of sites that I like. There is a blog, Sweet Potato Soul and it is actually run by a woman of color named Janae and she is vegan. I went through a phase of just prepping vegan stuff. One of the things that I have continued to have, even though I’m not a vegan, in my weekly routine, is I love Buddah bowls because they’re so easy to just throw a grain in there, throw some chickpeas, and some toppings and she has a lot of great ideas for Buddha bowls. I would say that that is a staple and you can always change the ingredients of what’s in the Buddah bowl, but it’s really easy.

20:40 Emily: This is another example of simplifying the decision making, right? That you have like a baseline type of meal you make — salads, Buddha bowls — and then you can shift things up as your taste directs you. Any other resources you care to mention or any other types of food that you love to prep?

20:57 Brielle: I don’t have a specific recommendation beyond I think one of the most important things is going with the flow and listening to your process and not being too hard on yourself, if you don’t get it right. For me, there were a lot of different adjustments that I made along the way and you just have to roll with it and beating yourself up doesn’t help at all. But if you can just become more aware of maybe certain times of the year you like this type of foods or when you’re taking a test, this feels more of a comfort. Just paying better attention to yourself, which can be really hard in grad school, I think that’s the best advice I could probably give someone who’s trying to embark on the journey.

Saving Money Through Meal Prepping

21:39 Emily: Yeah, it sounds a little bit like budgeting actually. You may think it’s going to look one way when you haven’t quite dived into the process yet, but then it’s going to evolve as you evolve and your life changes and so forth, and you’ll learn more about yourself and what makes you happy and satisfied. Speaking of budgeting, do you think that you’re spending less money overall with this meal prepping stuff or how has meal prepping affected your budget?

22:07 Brielle: I definitely have saved money over time. The biggest shift actually though came when I changed my process from, I think I mentioned before that I would on Friday create a list and then go on Saturday. Once I got more comfortable with what I like to eat, I actually didn’t create a list and I would go into the store and find what’s on sale. I think when I was doing the list thing, I was spending some like $115 a week and I eat a lot of organic things, a lot of fruit and veggies, I get all organic meat, so that’s kind of at the top end of things. But I went from that to spending about $65 a week by just eating what was in season. So I think that’s a considerable difference.

22:59 Emily: Oh, that’s huge. That’s much higher than I was expecting actually. And did you then or do you now do all of your shopping at one store? You already mentioned your routine of going after your cycling class or spin class, but is it always one place or do you have a few different stores you hit in rotation?

23:16 Brielle: Now it’s just one, but at one point I was, there’s a produce junction that was in Philadelphia that I found one of the administrators at Penn told me about it, and you could buy fruit and vegetables in bulk. Now my challenge is that I’m single and so I would buy things and I was wasting a lot of foods. That didn’t work for me, but for somebody who has a family, I think finding some of those alternative options where you can buy in bulk would be a great option, but it just wasn’t for me. I wanted to say one thing to make sure that I acknowledged this, while it was still in my brain. I was a single person in grad school and I know a lot of people aren’t. A lot of times people would say, “Oh, I can’t really do that because I’m a mom where I have like this or that.” I’ve actually become much more attentive to asking my sister friends who have children and meal prep, how do you do this? And I think the biggest difference in the process is that some of the women that I have talked to say that they eat more stews and soups because you can just throw everything in a crockpot and it’s really easy. They may go to the grocery store twice, rather than once a week. I think it’s still possible to do it, it just might look different in that phase of life.

24:38 Emily: Yeah. And I think that goes to what we were just saying earlier is that this kind of has to evolve with you as things change for yourself and your family. I know that when I was in graduate school and just cooking between myself and my husband, I was using our Crock-Pot so much. I wasn’t really into meal prepping, but I would do bulk cooking. So like huge thing in a Crock-Pot, feed me all week for lunches. It was a sort of minor step in that direction and I still love that approach of just make an enormous pot of something and be done for a little while. Again, it takes the decision making off the table because you know what you’re eating for the next week when you cook in such great volumes. Okay, you were really able to take you’re spending down. You’re eating this lovely food that you feeling wonderful for your body and so forth and you really took your spending down by becoming a little more flexible and being able to go for sale items, in season items, and making the decisions on the spot in the store. I know I’ve fallen into that trap sometimes too of being too emboldened into my list or feeling too flexible and I go back and forth, but that’s a great percentage reduction in your spending just based on that one step alone, so that’s awesome. Thank you for that discussion on buying in bulk versus not because of course different households have different needs there. I know, personally, we shop at Costco right now quite a bit and the buying and bulking from Costco gets a lot of criticism, “Oh, how are you ever going use a gallon condiment jar or whatever.” But we actually buy produce and meat at Costco because we do get through it and we just eat the same produce for several days in a row and it works for us well. Okay, so we’ve talked about the time and how you do it and the money and so forth. Why do you think that other people should be meal prepping? Or maybe you think, why should other people consider meal prepping? What benefits might they experience? And let’s specifically think about our population of early career PhDs.

Other Benefits of Meal Prepping

26:31 Brielle: The biggest benefit for me, and I think for others potentially, is just the health benefits. I think it’s really hard when you’re in the thick of grad school to give time to your mental, physical health, but it’s so important. Sleep deprivation and all the different thingsthat’s happening to your body when you’re in such a stressful period. If you can’t sleep eight hours, at the very least, you can give yourself some leafy greens and nourishing meals. I consider it, and I didn’t always follow my advice, is just a little bit of — I know people kind of don’t like the self care language now, but something you can do for yourself that you’re going to have to do no matter what. It’s not like, you know, it’s an elaborate expensive thing to just take care of yourself in that process.

27:20 Brielle: For me, actually when I started, I went through a couple of different phases with like doing Whole 30 and different types of food preparation techniques because I was experiencing some health issues and I actually figured out what my food intolerances were by meal prepping because I was able to eliminate things and put things into my diet where I figured out what was causing me inflammation. I think even for that reason alone, it’s really helpful to just know how different foods are affecting your body so that you can at least control that part of a life that is pretty out of control in grad school.

28:01 Emily: Yeah. Great point. Exactly as you said, you’re going to be eating anyway, you may as well make it something that’s going to fuel your body properly and keep you feeling good for all that work you have to do. Just as we’ve discussed before, I think the other potential benefits, depending on how you do it, are of course time savings and money savings. we’ve well covered that, but thanks for adding the health benefit there.

Tips To Get Started With Meal Prepping

Emily: Let’s say there’s someone listening like me. I’m listening and thinking I need to give this a shot, I needed to try this again. What are some easy first steps you would recommend?

28:39 Brielle: What I did was start small. For me breakfast is always a pretty simple meal that I’m always going to pretty much eat the same thing and just start off with a very reasonable goal. Say, for a month, I’m going to meal prep my breakfast and I’m just going to try and get into the practice of preparing that and figuring out what that is. And then once that’s under your belt, then you can add, I think the next thing I added was a morning snack. So, okay, now I’m doing the morning snack and once I had that under my belt, then I did lunch. Don’t try and go 0 to 100, that that’s not going to happen. So be very realistic about what’s the easiest thing that has the least amount of barriers for you to be successful and start there.

29:24 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for that advice because that is what I need to hear. I’ve been pretty successful in cooking like a casserole for breakfast that’ll last us the week. Something like that. Lunches are also pretty accessible for me. I think dinner’s the real challenge and that’ll be left for last in my next go around with this.

29:42 Brielle: Hold your confidence when you find yourself because there’s going to be benefits. I even noticed I was able to better control the calories once I was like, okay, I’m eating this for breakfast. So then I’m snacking less and it’s like, “Oh, I lost a couple of pounds. Ooh, I feel better.” Okay, so now I’m motivated to do the next thing. Like you, I was the type of person who needed a reward for every single thing and celebrated every single success. So there are a lot of those small milestones along the way that’ll keep you going. If you just commit to the very small thing of, let me work on my snack or my breakfast first.

Meal Prepping During Life Transitions

30:19 Emily: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for this wonderful view into your meal prep process and it’s really encouraging to hear that this is not something that was automatic for you from the beginning. It’s not something you learned as a child or anything. This is something you took years and years to develop. And of course there were times during graduate school when it wasn’t able to happen, but that doesn’t mean it can’t ever. And you’ve continue with that. How has it been with your latest move? Going from, you had your process down set when you were living for your postdoc and now you’ve moved. How has that gone?

30:59 Brielle: It was very chaotic. I think I was realistic in that if all my kitchen is literally in boxes, then I can’t cook. But it just takes a lot out of you to move, to pack and then to move. I thought, “Oh, okay, I’ll just jump in probably a week after and I’ll be back to it,” and that just didn’t happen. I just gave myself this space to say like, I’m gonna just enjoy eating out because even with my meal prep, I would still eat out on the weekends, just as a social activity. I allowed myself to do that and I’m just now kind of getting in, I moved at the end of May, and I’m now just a month or so later, finally getting back into my routine.

31:44 Brielle: It’s gonna look different because my life is different here, but I’m going with the flow. I think the other thing besides just moving that’s been a change in my routine is that, with my meal prepping, I got better in terms of feeling healthy with my food, which encouraged me to be better about my exercise. Now I’ve gotten to exercising five or six times a week, which now has changed how I had to meal prep, because in order to be able to do those workouts, I have to eat in a totally different ways. I think there’s never an end point in how this process works. However your life goes, you have to adapt and move with it. And so I don’t know, and I’m not feeling super successful about my food prep right now, but I know I will be if I just give myself some time.

32:35 Emily: Yeah. Unsurprisingly, what you eat is very intimately connected with many other areas of your life and health and work and sleep and exercise and so forth. And so yeah, just thanks so much for giving us a picture of that evolution with how meal prep has been fitting into your life over the last few years. Thank you so much for teaching us on this topic today.

32:55 Brielle: Thank you. And I wish everybody lots of success in whatever their journey looks like.

Outtro

33:02 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Achive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

This Higher Ed Career Coach Worked Her Way Out of Financial Ruin Caused by the Great Recession

November 4, 2019 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Beth Moser, a certified career coach specializing in higher education clients pursuing career change. Beth was All But Dissertation and pregnant with her first child when the Great Recession hit Phoenix and she was laid off from her museum job, so she and her husband lived on his graduate student stipend and the money she earned from odd jobs. Their home also lost enough value so as to go underwater, which tied them to Phoenix long-term while the value recovered. These events brought them to “financial ruin,” and they spent the next several years digging themselves out of that hole. Beth and her husband pursued several strategies to improve their finances over the coming years, including a career change for Beth, slashing household expenses, better financial management, and working with a financial advisor. Beth concludes with excellent money mindset advice for younger PhD trainees. You can find Beth at Academics at Work.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Beth: I don’t have a dime to save. What are you talking about? There’s no point. And now I’m like, now having seen the power of stashing away $5 here, $10 there over time. I’m like, huh, what actually could I have saved? What might have been?

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode 12, and today my guest is Beth Moser, a certified career coach and the founder of Academics at Work. Beth was ABD (all but dissertation), married to another grad student, and pregnant with their first child when the great recession hit Phoenix. She was laid off from her museum job at the same time their house went underwater, which brought them to what she calls “financial ruin.” Beth and her husband lived on his graduate student stipend and the money she earned from odd jobs while she reevaluated and eventually changed her career objectives. To climb out of that hole, they slashed their household expenses, implemented basic and advanced budgeting techniques, and worked with a financial advisor. Listen through the end of the episode to hear Beth’s excellent advice for PhD trainees regarding money mindset. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Beth Moser.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:26 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Beth Moser who has, well, quite a story for us, quite a financial story from her own personal life relating to her family and pursuing a PhD and having children and the great recession. So I’m really excited to dive into this story. Beth, would you please introduce yourself to us a little bit further? Tell us about your family and your career to date.

01:51 Beth: Sure. Thank you so much for having me, Emily. So my name is Beth Moser. I’m a certified career coach and I specialize in coaching higher ed clients who need career change. As part of that, I am a training manager who does professional development workshops for graduate colleges, for graduate students, postdocs and faculty on why they need to be incorporating this into their own lives and into their curricula. So I work in higher ed as well. I am married, I have a spouse who is an academic, and I have two children. But when this financial journey that we’re going to be talking about today started, I didn’t have children. So that was some time ago. And I live here in Tempe, Arizona.

What Led to Your “Financial Ruin”?

02:48 Emily: Yeah. Excellent. So let’s go back because what we’re going to be talking through here is kind of a perfect storm of events that brought you to–what you described to me when we talked for this episode–you described this to me as “financial ruin.” A sequence of events that brought you and your husband and your family to financial ruin in the midst of, you know, pursuing degrees and so forth. So, let’s find out what that was. What was the sequence of events here?

03:20 Beth: Sure. Yes, so some of this is unique to us and our circumstances and the timing. And some of it I think a lot of your listeners and readers can relate to. So, I went to get my PhD to go into what’s called an alternative academic or “alt-ac” career. I went to get my PhD so I could get a job in museums. And so, when I came out of working through my coursework and was in the midst of my dissertation, I landed a full-time job in the museum’s field, which was my ultimate goal. As you might surmise, it’s not a very well-paying field. Museums are of course, nonprofits. And so, when I started my first full-time job in 2006, I was making about $36,000 a year with no benefits. So, when I went to work full-time, my husband and I switched off.

04:25 Beth: He had wanted to get his PhD as well. So, since I had landed a full-time job and my career, he quit his full-time job to go start his PhD program. So, he got a stipend of making about $12,000 a year. So, total, I mean, for the two of us, for a single couple in their thirties, we were making about $48,000 a year in the Phoenix metropolitan area. So, not great, but not horrible either, especially when you’re considering we didn’t have children at that time when we moved here. For his PhD program, we bought a home because we thought, you know, well we can and that will keep our costs lower than rent. And so, we were fortunate in that respect, at least at the start. So, for the first three years of my full time career, I was not making more than about $36,000 a year.

05:26 Beth: But within three years with position increases and promotions, I eventually was making $50,000 a year plus benefits. I finally was making benefits, but that’s the first time. In my mid-thirties was the first time I started getting any employer retirement plan of any sort, including any employer match of any kind. So, I got started on saving for retirement relatively late into my career. Okay. So, in the midst of that I finally got pregnant. We had wanted to have children. I was three months pregnant when the recession had started hitting and I got laid off from the museum that I was working on. At that time, we spent four months surviving only on my husband’s graduate school stipend and me taking odd jobs here and there. You know, babysitting, working an office job for people for, you know, 12 bucks an hour, but nothing steady.

Aftereffects of the Great Recession in Pheonix, AZ

06:31 Beth: And then, when I was seven months pregnant, I finally landed a full-time benefits-eligible permanent job at a higher ed institution. But I only had two months of paychecks there before I gave birth and then had eight weeks of unpaid leave. So, during that summer in 2011, you know, we had already had three months of me not having an income. Of us surviving on my husband’s pretty paltry stipend, and then having the enormous cost of diapers and you know, cribs and strollers and car seats and all of that with no income on my part. So, in the midst of all of that, our lives were changing financially. They were changing personally. They were changing in ways big and small. In ways that were amazing and incredible, but also incredibly challenging as you can imagine. So, what finally led to what I call financial ruin is the aftereffects of the recession hit particularly hard here in the Phoenix area, and the home that we were living in lost over 50% of its value.

07:48 Beth: So we could not consider moving to downsize our living expenses because we were what’s called “underwater.” That meant that our home was worth far more than what we owed on it. And we did not qualify for state or federal programs to offset that or alleviate that to get out from under that because we were, and this is a great irony, too far underwater to qualify for that program to help us. So we found ourselves, you know, in the first year of our first child’s life, really relying on credit cards, unfortunately, relying on piecing together unemployment in odd jobs for several months, falling behind on monthly bills, and then finally starting to catch up once I was back at work full-time after parental leave. But it was really, really difficult to climb out of that over the next several years. So, that’s what I wanted to talk with you about today.

08:56 Emily: Yeah. Beth, thank you so much for that introduction. Oh man, it’s taken me back. I didn’t personally experience hardship during the great recession, but it’s taken me back to all the media coverage and everything because I was very involved in the personal finance, you know, sphere at that time. Just a terrible situation that so many people were in. You were not alone in being so far underwater, especially in your particular area. And wow, I’m really glad to have the opportunity to talk with you to get the second half that story. Right? Because we know that so many families were hit so hard by the recession. And of course with you personally, it ended up coinciding with, as you said, a wonderful time of life but also a particularly challenging time of life, especially financially challenging that is having your first child. So, I’m really glad to hear how you ended up climbing out of that because I think that’s the part of the story that we don’t hear so much. And especially how, you know, you did that as a person who was in higher ed, is working in higher ed and also your husband still pursuing his PhD at the time that we’re, you know, picking this up. Is that right?

09:57 Beth: Yes.

Strategies for Financial Recovery

09:58 Emily: Yeah. So, thank you so much for sharing that with us. So, okay. The strategies that you were using to climb out of the financial ruin and it’s taken, what, we’re going on eight years, it sounds like? Since this point you identify as like the low point?

10:12 Beth: Right.

Recovery Strategy #1/4: Increasing Income

10:13 Emily: So, it’s been quite a while. You’ve probably tried a lot of different things. So, we’re going to break down your strategies into three main categories and then kind of a catch-all. And so, the first one there is regarding increasing income. So, how did you do that? Aside from, as you just said, you landed a job. You actually weren’t out of work for too long, relatively, that’s not so bad. So, aside from that, again, a full-time job with full-time pay, what else were you two doing to increase your income?

10:41 Beth: So, when I was laid off from museums, I decided that that was the end of that career, unfortunately. I mean, that had been the goal of me going to graduate school. That had been the focus of my dissertation work. It was my passion. But when reality hits you, and especially when your life changes and your marriage becomes more of a priority or your partnership and having a family or children and other things outside of yourself that you have to consider financially, it just became really real that it was time for me to grow up, perhaps. I don’t really like to use that phrase, but to really get real with myself about what my financial needs were and what ours were in providing for, you know, a tiny child who was going to grow over the course of our lifetime. So, strategy number one was to accept and work through that difficult decision to close down one career and change directions.

Recovery Strategy #2/4: Decreasing Household Expenses

11:47 Beth: So, that helped me prioritize. I need something that pays at least a livable wage for myself and has great benefits including retirement plans and matching and of course, great health insurance in order to just, you know, close that chapter and move forward. So I targeted my job search exclusively to sectors and employers where my skills would transfer, but that was my priority. Finding employers that would pay a much better wage and that would provide those benefits. So, that was strategy number one in increasing my income: being really targeted with what sectors I was applying for and networking in and going after. The second strategy was to decrease our household expenses. Now, as I alluded to, we weren’t able to decrease our housing expenses. So, while our neighbors were scooping up the exact quality of homes at literally 50% of what we were paying for our mortgage monthly, we could not address that one. We tried to qualify for a program, a HARP program was what it was called and we didn’t. So, that was a fixed expense.

Did You Consider Taking the Foreclosure Hit?

13:11 Emily: I want to jump in there with a question because I do remember at the time a lot of people were walking away from their homes that were too far underwater, taking the foreclosure hit to their credit and just saying it’s too far gone. So you guys didn’t go that route. Did you think about it?

13:25 Beth: I did think about it and I consulted with others who had done it and people who had not done it. I decided not to do it because I held my credit score tightly at value. So I knew that we were going to come out of this someday (our financial circumstances). And I didn’t want to also have to tackle just a really horrible credit score because that can take years to repair as well.

13:52 Emily: Yeah, it sounded like it didn’t get to the point where you had to walk away. There may have been a point that it could have gone that direction, but because it sounded like you did an amazing job searching for and networking for the new job, it didn’t get to that point where it was a necessity.

14:07 Beth: Correct. Yes. And so, we sat down and we looked at what can we downsize on as far as our monthly expenses. So, we went down to sharing one vehicle. That way we didn’t have to carry insurance on the other car. We wouldn’t have gas expenses on the other car. We live within walking distance to grocery stores and coffee shops and so forth. So, we started walking to the grocery store decreasing mileage and usage of our vehicle and gas expenses. So, we would coordinate going to and from work together so that we had that only one vehicle expense. We used my husband’s vehicle because he did not have to pay for parking at his work, but I did at mine. So, he would drop me off, drive off to his job, park for free. He would come back and get me at the end of the day.

15:09 Beth: And then we really cut down on all like entertainment expenses. We got really lean and mean about it. So we dropped streaming services of all types. We didn’t even have the Netflix DVD service, which existed back in that day still. We didn’t do any movie rentals. We wouldn’t go out to movies. We cut down on eating out. And I mean, like by cut down, I mean, we did not do it. So, we got really disciplined about what expenses are necessary and which ones would be nice to have again in the future, but that we can’t afford right now. We made huge use of our libraries. We would rent DVDs and movies and streaming there all the time. But it just meant that we did not have the luxury of having, you know, just flip on the TV and whatever’s on tonight is what we’re going to be able to watch.

Decreasing Expenses while Starting a Family

16:05 Emily: How did this effort in decreasing expenses play with you having a baby for the first time? Because I think there’s an idea in our culture that babies need a lot of stuff and you have to provide a level of care for children. I don’t know. So, how were you handling applying the decreasing expenses mindset to your first baby?

16:30 Beth: So, one of the things that we did was I sat down with women friends of mine who had recently had babies and said, okay, you know, you go to the baby websites and you go to the stores and they give you this like, you know, flip book of all the things you need. Okay. What are the absolute essentials that I must have? And so for instance, people were saying, okay, yes, they’re going to tell you you need a pack and play. But really here’s my bassinet. My baby doesn’t even fit in it anymore. Use it for the first three months. And then when she needs to grow into a crib, we can go, you know, get you a crib at Target or whatever. You don’t need, you know, this, that or the other. You don’t need toys yet. She’s too little.

17:19 Beth: So it really helped me focus in on like: these are the absolute bare bones essentials that you need to have a baby. And just having, you know, that critical mindset about what we consume. Right? And I mean, if you think about it from the “this is a first-world problem” perspective. Like thinking about, okay, well families who live in tiny apartments in giant cities around the world or in smaller, more humble circumstances, they don’t need these things for their babies and their babies grow up healthy and beautiful too. So, just really being critical about the buying, what we could borrow from friends. Using secondhand stores for buying baby onesies and that sort of thing. And then luckily I was able to nurse so I didn’t have the expense of formula. I say, luckily I was able to, because there’s also this cultural presumption that, “just nurse and you’ll be fine.” But that is not always an expense that can be eliminated. I know many women who have been either physically unable to nurse or their baby can’t nurse and formula is no joke. It is really expensive. So, I do recognize that that was something we lucked out on.

18:38 Emily: Yeah. Thanks for those comments. I want to jump in here with some comments of my own as I have two children that are fairly young. So, it’s a recent thing for me. The first is, this is kind of weird, but my husband and I watched the documentary, which was available on Netflix, maybe it still is called “Babies.” It’s like a no-narration documentary just following these four babies in different countries through their first years of life. And so, it’s a really fun, funny kind of documentary. But what we took away from that is babies thrive in all kinds of different situations. Like, they’re good, they’re gonna develop, no matter if you have this, you know, doodad or this gadget or you do this thing this way or that way. You know, babies are very adaptable and, you know, robust and so it’s going to be fine.

Any Other Strategies to Decrease Expenses?

19:23 Emily: You know, no matter what you choose, it’s going to be okay. So, we enjoyed that and I’d recommend that to someone who is looking forward to becoming a parent. I really liked what you did in talking with multiple, other new mothers or recent mothers or recent parents to get their perspectives on what you actually need. I say multiple because babies are also very individual. And so, what was essential to one parent might not have been essential to another parent, might not be essential to you. And so it’s great to get an idea of from several different people. “Okay, that one person said that one thing was essential, but I didn’t hear that from, you know, so and so and so and so. So maybe I’ll hold off on that.” And I just think the idea of, as you said, like babies don’t need all the stuff from their first two years of life upon their birth. Right? You can acquire these things slowly as you determine that they actually make sense for you. So, it doesn’t have to be a buying binge like right at the beginning. So, Please continue on. Were there any other ways that you decreased your expenses during that period?

20:23 Beth: I mean that was the main thing, the main categories. We couldn’t, you know, decrease utilities or we couldn’t drop Wi-Fi. So those were the main things, like any entertainment sort of things. And then the other thing, you touched upon this earlier, are these like cultural messages that we receive as new parents. And one of the big ones especially that I see is like date night and how important it is to remain committed to your partner. Yes, that is of course important. But for the first six months of your baby’s life, you are so tired that even if someone had come and offered us date night, we would have been like, where’s the closest place where we can go take a nap? You know, so that was not something that we had any interest in spending money on anyway. But we really didn’t use a sitter. We didn’t go out for that sort of thing, honestly, for the first year at all. I mean for like birthday dinner out or something like that, we had a friend watch the baby. We would trade off and say like, “Hey, the baby’s very calm during mornings, so let’s go out and have a leisurely brunch together and bring the baby.” Right? Like you don’t have to buy into this messaging about how much children have to cost.

21:46 Emily: Yeah. Great, great point.

Commercial

21:51 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series as you make changes over the longterm. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part-coaching, part-course, and part-community. You can find out more and join the waitlist for the next time I open the program at pfforphds/wealthyphd. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Recovery Strategy #3/4: Sticking to a Budget

23:06 Emily: Okay, so the third kind of category that we want to talk about is financial strategies or financial management. So what, aside from increasing income and decreasing expenses, could you do with your finances to help you through this period?

23:19 Beth: Okay. So, one of the things that we did was, and this is not going to be eye-opening to you, but it really was to us, was to finally follow the adulting advice of creating and sticking to a budget. I know how insane that sounds for people in their thirties to finally like “adult up” and sit down with an Excel spreadsheet and say okay, how much is Wi-Fi, how much is our utilities, how much is our car insurance, how much is our mortgage? But we started looking at that and sticking to it. So, that was first and foremost was getting real about these are our expenses.

24:07 Beth: Burying your head in the sand and pretending like, “Oh, you mean I have to pay my cell phone bill every month?” That’s not a viable strategy. So, actually facing the reality and the facts was another strategy that really helped us. You know, I think as academics in particular, you get a lot of messaging and a lot of training in your self-worth and therefore perhaps your, you know, financial value being wrapped up in your job title and what you tell people you do. But you cannot ignore the financial realities of what you have to provide for yourself and your family. And I don’t think there’s enough about that in graduate school for any of us. And I think for those of us who aren’t in graduate school in MBA programs or accounting or finance, like it’s just, you know, sort of back of the mind consideration. And so we finally decided to get real about that.

25:12 Emily: Yup. Classic advice, but always perennially good. And I kind of feel like, I guess I feel like some people can get away without budgeting if they make a lot of money or if they have very, very, very, very, very simple lives and simple desires. But 97% of the population I feel like would benefit from keeping a regular budget. So, it sounded like it took you a little bit longer to get there, but when the need was high enough, you did and you found it to be a useful tool.

Maintaining Your Budget for Continued Savings

25:44 Beth: Yes. And so, one of the ways we use that tool was even as we started to catch up on the backlog of expenses that we had been tacking onto credit cards out of necessity. So, we started to tackle debt. But then as my income rose over several years–because I stayed in this full-time role, I found a new career, I was doing good work, so I was getting promotions and increases over time–we maintained our budget. So, we could use that extra income not to like restore all the streaming services, and sign back up for the premium whatever, and start doing date night once a month, but to focus on getting rid of that debt and then start to tack away even tiny amounts for savings.

26:35 Emily: Yeah, you really had a large hole that you had to dig yourselves out of first before you could even consider increasing things on the lifestyle side. And again this is not, I mean, none of this was like your fault, right? Like this is all just what happened like nationally and in your housing market in particular that caused this. And I’m sure that, you know, it took so many years of sacrifice to do this and it must be frustrating that like you were kind of just generally a victim of what was going on, like more generally. So anyway, it must have been frustrating and difficult, but I really admire that you stuck at it and you stuck with it for so many years to ultimately get ahead.

The Benefits of a Financial Manager

27:14 Beth: Yeah. And so, one thing we did was we decided to add on one strategic expense and it was a huge expense to us at the time, but we met with a financial manager two times. So, I can’t quote this for sure, but I believe each session–I know each session was an hour–but I believe it was $150 an hour. And that was a huge add on for us at the time. But the knowledge and the toolkit that we came away with like has paid off in spades for years to come. So one of the things she did was she took our budget and she tried to convince us–and the first session, it was a little hard for us to hear this–that we did have spare room in our budget to start saving. And we were like, no, we really don’t.

28:10 Beth: But she actually did the math and she did some forecasting with us and she showed us that if you make your savings automatic and you start putting that away before you can even see it in your checking account so it’s not there for you to spend or consider spending, then you can honestly start to build up savings. And so she taught us about, we used a tool called Capital One 360. It’s an online bank and within that particular bank it’s free to set up an account and you can set up as many accounts as you need. So we set one up, for instance, for future child activities, like day camps during the summer or sports lessons or whatever. We set up one for travel with, I mean, we weren’t traveling at the time, but we were like, “Hey, maybe we’re going to want to take a big beach vacation, a weekend trip to San Diego one of these days.”

29:10 Beth: So we set up these little goal buckets in Capital One. And I’m telling you, like five bucks out of that paycheck and 10 bucks out of this paycheck, and what seems like a coffee here or a lunch there. Really small amounts. We were so skeptical that this strategy was going to work, but she had seen it work before and she had the expertise to back it up. So we said, we’ll give it a shot. And I have been continuously blown away by this, and I still use it to this day. So, within our first year of trying this, even with our really modest higher ed incomes–and my husband had finished his graduate school programming at that time but was on the job market, which as we know is problematic. So he was adjuncting only so we were not living large.

30:04 Beth: We were not high on the hog. We had climbed out of this debt and so forth, but we were not like, you know, going on extravagant vacations or anything like that–but in the first year we were able to save about $5,000. And then the second year, $10,000 on top of that. So, it completely blew me away that like five bucks here, 10 bucks there. Oh, I have a few extra dollars left over from grocery shopping. Okay. Tuck that away. We’re actually going to go put that in the ATM and transfer it over to the Capital One 360 funds and then we’re not going to touch those funds. They’re there for those goals. Just leave it and forget it. And they’re not making huge interest. Right? Like we are not talking about anything more than the interest rate you’d get at your bank or credit union. So, it’s not like this is some investment strategy. It’s literally just set it and forget it but don’t touch it. So that was a huge eye-opener for us.

Financial Advising Tip #1: Targeted Savings Accounts

31:08 Emily: I really love that you brought up this strategy because it’s one of my favorite ones. Especially for, you know, grad students and postdocs, people with lower cashflows, but I talk about this very, very frequently. I call it targeted savings accounts. Other people call it sinking funds. I’m not sure what term your advisor used, but it’s exactly what you described. Putting away a small savings rate with every single pay period. And then pulling the money back out when you have those, you know, a reason for it. If you want to take a trip or maybe you have car repairs or whatever the buckets are that you’ve set up. I also have seen this work in my own life and other people’s lives. And it is amazing that there’s actually a difference between saving in theory and saving in reality.

31:51 Emily: Like you might tell yourself, “I never have money, you know, I never have $5, $10 leftover at the end of the month. How could I possibly be saving anything?” Or like, “Oh yeah, I’m saving but my savings are just sitting in my checking account and oops, I actually kind of spend them from time to time without thinking about it.” It’s amazing what a difference it makes to actually sequester the money away from your general cashflow. And I really love that you particularly use Capital One 360. My husband and I currently bank with Ally, which has the same kind of structure, but I used to bank with Capital One 360 and it was totally great and you know, no big reason for the change, but I also set up targeted savings funds there. So, if anyone’s looking to implement this strategy, using an online bank like Capital One 360 or Ally is a really good choice because some of the larger brick and mortar banks might charge you fees for having accounts open or maybe they’ll charge you a fee if your balance drops below a certain amount.

32:45 Emily: And when we’re talking about these accounts, the balance might be $5. That’s all that might be in there at one point or another when you’re starting out or if you’ve just depleted it. So, it’s really important to have an account that has no minimums, and Ally and Capital One 360 both offer those kinds of accounts. So, really good tip to check those out. In particular, if you like this strategy, and I’ll link in the show notes some more writing I’ve done about this strategy. But thank you so much for describing it Beth.

Financial Advising Tip #2: Use Cash for Day-to-Day Expenses

33:09 Beth: Yeah, I mean it’s been huge for us. So, the other strategy that our financial advisor had us use was to use cash for all of our day-to-day expenses. And I’m not talking about the complicated, here’s the envelope for groceries and here’s the envelope for eating out and like figure all of that. No, just take a lump sum of cash out of each paycheck. And it sounds like a lot, like maybe it’s $400, maybe it’s $800. That, you would have to consult with somebody on, but use it for all your groceries, your cleaning supplies, your coffee shop runs, your lunches out, the beer happy hour after work, whatever it is. And the reason for that is, for whatever psychological reason, whatever behavioral economists call this, you really do think twice about that purchase when you’re using cash, much more than you would with your debit card. So, it has been incredibly powerful and honestly, I get a charge now at the end of every two-week pay cycle where I’m like, “Haha, I still have 40 bucks left over, and I’m actually going to shove that into my Capital One 360, because I actually do want to do like a trip to Denver next year and go have some amazing food and beer. And that’s going to be way more fun for me than using this 40 bucks to go out to lunch a couple of times this week.”

34:39 Emily: What I really love is with your leftover money that you saved it. You weren’t like, “Oh, leftover money. Yeah, great. I’m going to blow it. Like it’s already been accounted for.” You’re like, “No, I’m actually weighing like should I use it for this purpose in the here and now or should I use it for this purpose? Maybe it’s a longer term thing that I’m saving for.” And sounds like much of the time you said, “Nope, I have this other goal, I know exactly where this money is going to go, it’s going to give me more pleasure, more satisfaction to put it over here. Even though it’s, you know, saving in the meantime but it’s saving to spend in the short term.” So, I really love that you actually followed through on that because that’s the part that a lot of people don’t do is the last final step of actually saving the money that they have available to save.

Recovery Strategy #4/4: Research Your Resources

35:18 Beth: Yup. And the final strategy, which I’ll just touch on briefly, is it’s a lot of hard work and it’s a lot of discipline, and that can get tiring over time, but it pays off. So for instance, in 2013 when we had our second child, okay, childcare expenses are about to skyrocket. Like you wouldn’t believe. Well, okay, so let’s take the time and do a lot of research and homework and find a childcare share situation. So for that, we were able to find a place that during the academic year we had part-time childcare and we could take summers off but still hold our place for the next academic year. So that way during summers when my husband was adjuncting only online courses, he would watch the children at no childcare expense to us. So, it’s really hard to find that sort of circumstance, but you might have something equivalent in your life that it’s going be hard to find, but it’s going to be worth the effort to find.

Were There Any Other Strategies You Used?

36:23 Emily: Yeah, it just shows the creativity and the resource in terms of the time you were willing to put into researching certain things is not easy, as you said. But when you can apply those things, you can come up with financially pretty frugal solutions that still work for you. Okay. Were there any other strategies you want to get to that you were using during the period of those years?

Curate Social Media Exposure, Find Your Support System

36:47 Beth: I think a lot of it was trying as much as possible to curate what we looked at and saw. So like staying off of some social media sites where everybody’s flaunting their amazing vacations and you’re like, “Oh, I’m missing out on that.” Or you know, I started reading a blog for instance, about a woman who decided to see how much she could save by bringing her lunch to work every single day for an entire year. So just seeking out where you could that support system, whether it’s virtual or in real life, being really mindful about not going to those after-work happy hours where you know, “Okay, sure. One beer. Well, now I’m hungry, I’m also going to get an appetizer.” So really just being mindful about surrounding yourself with the support system you need to stay on track.

37:45 Emily: Yeah, and I think within an academic setting, I would imagine you can find those other people. Those frugal friends, the classmates who are living on the same kind of income that you are. I’m sure you can find other people who are living above their means in some way or another. So it’s not necessarily everyone in that setting, but you can definitely find that support system. And I did, I know during graduate school because I happened to be very open about talking about money. Other people who were open to talking about money realized that about me and we became friends around that common interest, I would say. So they exist. You might have to sniff them out, but the support systems do exist. Okay. Beth, I think we’ve gotten through the strategies you used to recover from the financial ruin on as you’ve been doing over those several years and since then. So, is there any advice that you would give your past self? You know, anything that you wish you had considered or wish you could have done differently during that time? Given that again, a lot of these forces were completely out of your control.

Final Financial Advice to Oneself

38:49 Beth: Yes. Yeah. So yes, I have two really key takeaways that I wish my younger self would have known. The first one is I wish I had had the ability to more critically consider my future financial needs when it came to choosing a career. So my initial career I was dead set on working in museums and even knowing the realities of the job market and the pay and, you know, how long it takes to get a livable wage in that industry with benefits. I still chose to do it. And it’s not that I regret that at all. It was an amazing experience. But if I could have somehow talked myself into considering like, “Hey, you probably do want to get married someday, you probably do want children. It may be that you’re going to have changes in your life that shift around your personal priorities and some of those are going to cost a lot of money.” I wish that I could have taken that into consideration when making my career choice more deliberately and not tossed finances to the wind as if like, “Well, you know, we’ll figure out how to make it work with whatever this industry pays.”

40:07 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you were forced to do that, right? When you were laid off from your museum job and you totally did this reevaluation and had gotten to your new career path. That was when it had happened, but maybe you could’ve done that a little bit earlier. And if you go to the show notes, I’ll link from this episode a whole other discussion I had in season three, I believe it was episode six with Scott Kennedy. And we talked again about that same subject of how the reality of “he wanted to have a family, have children” and how did that affect his career decisions in terms of which career paths will pay enough to support a family versus others. Because there are plenty of things you can do because you have a great passion for it that might support a single person but probably not a family. So in that episode, he also grappled with the tough thing of closing a door to a career path that was very attractive to him and turning to something that was also attractive but going to pay quite a bit better. So thank you for that point. What was the other one you wanted to make?

Learn to Critically Examine Your Self-Talk

41:10 Beth: So the second is I would tell my younger self to really hear what you tell yourself and that are truths and beliefs that you have about your money. Because they may not turn out to be true at all. That is the case in my instance. So now, you know, knowing how much I’ve been able to save by this sort of, I forget the term that you use, but this automatic savings out of my paycheck into these Capital One 360 accounts. I wish I had tried that a long time ago. Because I’m sure–in fact I know–I was telling myself in my twenties and before all of this happened, like “I don’t have a dime to save. What are you talking about? There’s no point.” And now I’m like, now having seen the power of stashing away $5 here, $10 there over time, I’m like, “huh, what actually could I have saved? What might have been?” So I really wish I had been able to critically examine that self-talk.

42:17 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for making that point. And I think it’s a really common one among graduate students or PhD trainees in general. You know, “I’m meant to be living close to the bone during these years. I’m not meant to be paying off debt. I’m not meant to be saving. I’m not meant to be investing.” That’s a story that academia tells us. Is it actually true? For some people it is. They definitely don’t make enough money to do anything else. Other people, it is possible. So it’s more of a matter of what are your priorities. So thank you so much for bringing that up. And as we wrap up here Beth, could you tell us a little bit more about your business and how people can find you?

Beth’s Website: Academics at Work

42:52 Beth: Yeah, thanks, Emily. So I’m a career coach. You can find me at academicsatwork.com. I have a blog there where I share all kinds of tips about changing careers or making the one that you’re working at now thriving in that to advance and what you need to think through in terms of networking, your resume, your cover letter and career-changing. And aligning your career with your needs, which change over time. So that’s where you can find me. You can also reach me at [email protected]. And I really, really appreciate your blog, Emily. I have started nerding out about paying more attention to my finances as a result of this, you know, climbing out of this hole that I had. And so that’s how I found your blog. And I just think it’s such an incredible tool that everyone should know about and be using. So I’m so glad you’re doing this podcast. You’ve got the blog. And I really appreciate you having me today.

43:52 Emily: Aw, thank you so much for saying that Beth. And I’m really glad that we got to hear your origin story, kind of view yourself as your first client in terms of a career coach and how that worked out for you. It’s clear that you made that transition very well and rather quickly, finding another job within only three months. So I’m excited to see more about what you do for other people now that that’s your business. So again, thank you so much for joining me and it was really a pleasure to talk with you.

44:17 Beth: Thank you so much!

Outtro

44:19 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.