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This Muslim Graduate Student Found Halal Investing and Now Teaches It to Her Family and Friends

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In this episode, Emily interviews Joumana Altallal, a Muslim graduate student at the University of Michigan. Joumana began investigating personal finance in the summer before she started graduate school to prepare to manage her stipend. In just her first year on a stipend, she has saved a full emergency fund, established credit, and funded a Roth IRA. Joumana shares what she’s learned about Halal investing, a strain of socially responsible investing for Muslims that has become much more accessible in recent years with the rise of robo-investing. Joumana’s enthusiasm for personal finance and halal investing, in particular, has spilled into her relationships with her family and friends. At the end of the episode, she gives a wonderful articulation of the role her finances play in the world.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Halal investing Muslim grad student

Teaser

00:00 Joumana: I think taking a halal approach to investing and saving money is always really grounding for me in that it acts as this constant reminder, that at the end of the day, my finances are meant to serve an ethical role in the world. So, they’re not just a fulfillment for my own needs and desires, but that they also function in this greater, sort of just way in the world.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 13, and today my guest is Joumana Altallal, a Muslim graduate student at the University of Michigan. Joumana began investigating personal finance in the summer before she started graduate school to prepare to manage her stipend. In just her first year on a stipend, she has saved a full emergency fund, established credit, and funded a Roth IRA. Joumana shares what she’s learned about halal investing, a strain of socially responsible investing for Muslims that has become much more accessible in recent years with the rise of robo-investing. Joumana’s enthusiasm for personal finance and halal investing in particular has spilled into her relationships with her family and friends. You won’t want to miss her wonderful articulation of the role her finances play in the world. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Joumana Altallal.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:28 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Joumana Altallal. She is a current graduate student and also a Muslim graduate student. So, we’re going to be talking about a particular version of socially responsible investing today, which is halal investing. So, Joumana, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. And will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

01:49 Joumana: Hi, Emily. Thanks for having me today. My name is Joumana Altallal. I’m a second-year master of fine arts student in poetry at the University of Michigan. My family and I immigrated to the U.S. In 2003 and were resettled in Charlottesville, Virginia. So, that’s actually where I grew up since I was about six years old. And I would say my journey with personal finance has definitely been informed by my identity as both a refugee and a Muslim.

02:17 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. And tell us where you are now and what you’re studying.

02:21 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. So, I’m at the University of Michigan at the Helen Zell Writers’ Program. So, it’s a creative writing program that is two years with a fellowship year third year. I am a poet, so I’m spending all of my time in writing workshops

02:37 Emily: Sounds fantastic. And you and I actually met when I was speaking at the University of Michigan in 2019, I guess it was, right?

02:46 Joumana: Yeah.

Personal Finance Journey

02:46 Emily: Yeah. So, I met in person, actually, you came up to me with this question about this particular version of investing, and I said, “I have no idea about that. Will you please come on the podcast and teach me and my audience about this?” So, I’m really happy to have you on today to talk more about that. So, kind of first step, more like background stuff before we get to that particular topic. So, what have you been learning about personal finance and also applying since you started graduate school?

03:15 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. So, I actually came to graduate school immediately from undergrad. So, I didn’t have much experience budgeting or tracking money in a sort of systematic way before. And although I’d been obviously working throughout high school and college, I was still primarily supported by my parents. So, my financial decisions were definitely limited in that scope. But my interest in personal finance kind of grew out of a hobby that I had. The summer before moving for grad school, I was kind of introduced to the financial independence and early retirement movement through Reddit forums of all places. And I found myself sort of accidentally spending a lot of time reading people’s posts and advice to each other. So, I think part of what’s so great about personal finance forums, I guess, is that they don’t really assume a starting place for anyone, which was really helpful for me. You can ask questions as a beginner or share advice on an experience that you just went through. So, as someone coming from like an immigrant background, I saw my parents really struggle with understanding what things like 401ks were even. And I believe a huge part of that is because workplaces don’t use accessible language to really explain what these investment opportunities are. So, a huge group of people end up being like absolutely excluded from personal finance conversations despite having a right to them.

Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE)

04:49 Emily: So, I love that you were sort of introduced to personal finance inspired by the FIRE movement, something I’ve also been kind of getting into recently. FIRE, Financial Independence and [Retire Early]. I’ve actually done a couple, a pair of interviews with a PhD who’s pursuing FIRE in season three of the podcast. So, if people want to check that out, we’ll link that from the show notes. And also some of my other guests have sort of incidentally mentioned being inspired by the movement as well. Would you say that you are pursuing FIRE or going to be pursuing FIRE, maybe once you’re done with graduate school? Or are you just like, “No, I’m just using some of the principles for like general personal finance stuff”?

05:27 Joumana: I think right now I’m using the general principles for personal finance. It feels a little scary to say that I’m pursuing FIRE as a 22-year-old grad student. But that is absolutely something that I would love to one day be a little more stringent in following.

05:45 Emily: Yeah. So, for listeners who aren’t yet familiar or haven’t listened to the other podcasts on the subject. I think the reason why, you know, Joumana and I do not say we’re part of the FIRE movement is probably because we do not have savings rates that top 50% of our income, which is not a requirement to be part of the movement, but definitely something that many people within the movement do. And that’s how you get that, you know, really fast acceleration towards retirement. So, very difficult to carry out that particular aspect of it on a grad student kind of salary, but you can definitely use the broader principles, start using the broader principles that also apply to personal finance. That was really something that came out of my previous interview with Dr. Gov Worker, is that he really sees the FIRE movement as like an entrance into just good personal finance practices. It’s just a particular way to like inspire people to follow through on the stuff that everybody talks about, you know, from decades ago. So, yeah. What have you actually, like maybe things you’ve put into practice within your finances since last summer?

Building Credit and Budgeting

06:44 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. So, the summer before grad school, my sort of first step into the journey was opening a student credit card through Discover which is something that prior to that I’d never had. So, beginning to build my credit was really important to me. And then obviously knowing that I would be receiving a monthly stipend once I began my MFA, I knew I needed some sort of system to track my income and expenses. So, I know there are apps like Mint that do this automatically, but I actually rely on a sort of extensive Excel spreadsheet that allows me to type things in manually the particular template that I’ve been using for the past year and a half just comes from George Hayward’s YouTube channel. But any, and all can achieve the same thing really.

07:31 Emily: We’ll track that down and put that in the show notes as well.

Emergency Fund and Roth IRA

07:35 Joumana: And the most important step I think after that was really focusing on building an emergency fund that I knew could last me for at least two months, but now I’ve brought it up to six months. And that’s actually advice that my parents have always followed. So, it didn’t feel too strange to me to begin doing. And after that, opening a Roth and beginning to stash away a monthly amount into my savings.

What is Halal Investing?

08:01 Emily: Yeah. Those are a fantastic number of steps to be taking just in like your first year or so of graduate school, especially that six month of expenses emergency fund. Very, very impressive. You must be living well below your means there in Ann Arbor. So, for those of us who like me, had never heard of halal investing before you brought it up. Can you tell us some of the differences between halal investing and maybe, you know, what your average American might be doing for investing?

08:28 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. So, to kind of backtrack a little bit, in Islam, the word halal just means permissible. So, halal investing is just a faith-based approach to investment management that’s both ethically and socially responsible. Halal investing really just tries to eliminate placing money in interest-based investments and highly leveraged company stocks or in securities of companies whose profit is typically earned from things like firearms, alcohol, or gambling, for instance. So, as you can tell, it’s not just as easy as opening a Roth through Vanguard, for instance, and beginning to save. However, doing the research has really helped me understand what it is I’m doing with my money and how the process works.

09:17 Emily: Yeah. So, maybe to explain like, just a little bit further for the listeners. So, what you’re basically saying is no bonds, right? Because bonds are a debt-based product. So, stocks are okay. But you mentioned that you can’t use companies that are very highly leveraged, so that requires some additional degree of research. So, it sounds like some company stock would be okay, some wouldn’t. And then nothing in these certain categories of “the sin stocks” as they might be referred to. Okay. So, that gives us a basis there. Does that also mean that you don’t use like interest-bearing checking or savings account? Is that correct?

09:55 Joumana: Yes. So, typically I actually won’t put my money into the savings portion of my bank account and I just have it all stashed in terms of the like six-month emergency fund, I just have it in my checking account. Because interest isn’t necessarily something that I’d want on my money, the same way that most people would.

10:18 Emily: Yeah. Gotcha. When I read up about the subject a tiny bit before our conversation, I read that many who are pursuing halal investing actually will end up not investing in stocks at all because of that additional degree of research that’s required. Can you expand on that a little bit?

Halal Investment Companies

10:37 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. I think for the average person, it can seem a little bit overwhelming to have to do all of this research all of a sudden. But I do think that there are actually a lot more solutions now than there were even just a few years ago. So, there are actually investment companies like Wahed Invest, Amana Mutal Funds, or Azzad and others that kind of facilitate the process of halal investing so that it’s not all entirely on the Muslim investor who doesn’t necessarily always know where to go or where to put their money. So, the way this works is that these companies essentially screen investments and identify companies that meet ethical standards based on halal investing. So, they also do things like help you calculate your annual Zakat percentage, which is just an obligatory charitable payment that has to be made on your earnings every year. And really the good thing with using these companies is that they have tickers that you can use to still invest through places like Schwab or Vanguard. So, realistically your Roth could still be with Schwab like I have it. But these companies by using tickers, these companies just screen all of the investments that you could have and provide you with places that you could potentially invest in.

Compromise: Higher Expense Ratios for Greater Flexibility

12:05 Emily: Okay. So, let me see if I have this right. So, basically, as I said earlier, this is sort of a particular version of socially responsible investing. So, this is a similar process that other socially responsible investing funds would go through, right? There’s a higher degree of screening of the companies that are included according to whatever the principles are that the fund operates under. And so it sounds like these companies that you just mentioned, they have created mutual funds, is that right? That then you can invest in maybe directly through them, but also through, as you just said, you know, other companies just by buying that particular mutual fund. And something that often happens with other SRI funds is that, due to that increased basically degree of work that’s required, the expense ratio is a little bit higher than you might find if you were doing like a standard index bond. Is that correct for like the investment that you chose?

12:54 Joumana: Yes, that’s typically correct. Although I know that companies like Wahed Invest, for instance, rely kind of heavily on robo-investors. So, the percentage is probably a lot lower. But yes, there are some kind of compromises that you make in terms of these investments that you choose to follow.

13:17 Emily: Yeah. So, one of the principles, let’s say, of the FIRE movement that you might come across, and also personal finance more generally, is this ruthless pursuit of low expense ratios on investments. And what expense ratios are for the listener, it’s basically just an expression of the cost of owning a particular fund. It’s expressed as a percentage. So, you know, at Vanguard with ETFs or something, you might get an expense ratio down in the 0.05 or less percentage. So, five basis points or less. They could be as low as that.

13:52 Emily: And then higher expense ratios are like 1%. Like 1% would be like pretty high. And there are many, you know, in between. And usually, with robo-advisors, you would have the underlying expense of the actual fund that you buy. So, like maybe 0.1% or less, plus a fee that the robo-advisor would tax on top of that to basically be managing your investments for you. But it sounds like even within this, you know, halal investing, even among these options, there are various expense ratios that you could be sort of pursuing and choosing among. Yeah, I think it’s one of the downfalls of the FIRE movement that SRI, socially responsible investing, is not talked about that much. And it’s very important to certain people for various different reasons. And so it’s something that is definitely worth, you know, maybe sacrificing a little bit on the low expense ratio side of things to, of course, in your case, be able to invest according to your principles at all. And for other people just being able to invest according to their general values and what they want to be supporting in our economy and so forth.

Commercial

14:54 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early-career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics, or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers, even while social distancing. Now, back to our interview.

Halal Investing is Growing and Increasingly Accessible

15:53 Emily: Anything else you want to add about the products or the solutions that are available for halal investing?

16:00 Joumana: I would say that they are definitely doing a better job of reaching out to the Muslim population now. So, I think there’s a growing movement really of young Muslim students, or even young Muslim workers who are really active in the investment community, which is always lovely to see.

16:21 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. It seems like, you know, as you said, robo-advisors are now being involved and robo-advisors are a relatively recent phenomenon in the last five or 10 years. So maybe, you know, the last generation when they were looking into investing they probably saw that, well, the burden was completely on them, right? To do all this research that we were just talking about and that can be, you know, prohibitive, right?

16:44 Emily: For even going that route at all. Like for instance, before mutual funds came on the scene, everyone was like calling up their brokers, buying more of this stock or selling more of that stock. Like that’s a lot of work to be putting in. And we’re so fortunate now to be living in a time when, you know, index funds are available to us. When these highly curated mutual funds are available to us that are, you know, relatively not that expensive. And as you just said, you know, there’s been more and more attention being brought to this. And so, these particular funds exist for your community and that’s really great to hear and very encouraging.

17:17 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely.

17:19 Emily: One other thing that I read about in this article was that, for some Muslims, again, who were avoiding stock investing entirely and of course, bond investing as well they basically had their money just in cash and real estate. Was that the case maybe in generations past?

17:36 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. I actually still think that it’s overwhelmingly the case for most folks who identify as Muslim in the U.S. And I think so much of that is just the lack of really accessible information about the kinds of investments that are available for adherence of the Muslim faith. And I think most Muslims, especially of an older generation, have this lack of trust in banks or in investment companies generally for various totally rational reasons. But I also think so much of it is just a lack of understanding of what actually your money is doing and how you can still adhere to a principle of halal investing while having your money in places like Schwab or Vanguard, for instance, or in a 401k or a Roth, whatever that may be.

Helping Family and Friends with Halal Investing

18:32 Emily: And have you been, now that you’ve been learning this stuff from Reddit and other places, have you been kind of turning around and spreading that message like to your parents or other family members or other people in your community?

18:42 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. Once I started learning about it, I would honestly annoy my parents all the time by being like, “Hey, let’s talk about this now, let’s talk about this.” So, I actually ended up helping my mom, once she left the job that she had been working in for about 15 years, to roll over her 401k there into an IRA, actually. And that was sort of a defining moment in my journey throughout personal finance is being able to actually like implement and apply the things that I’ve been learning. Especially when it came to someone like my mom, who I felt like was always on that journey alongside me somehow. So, I’ve definitely been bringing it over to my family. And then in terms of friends, I’ve actually been reaching out to a lot of my Muslim friends and being like, “Hey, let’s have like meetups where we talk about our finances, let’s talk about like our stipends or how we’re dealing with just being in grad school and even just budgeting if we’re not ready to talk about investing really.” So, it’s definitely been a way for me to kind of understand what other people are doing in terms of their grad stipends or the ways that they’re organizing and negotiating the budgets that they have for themselves.

20:08 Emily: That sounds amazing. Has this group gotten much traction?

20:13 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. So, a lot of the people that I speak to are actually in totally different places. So, we’ll FaceTime occasionally and just kind of touch base about what we’re doing on any like new information that we’ve learned in terms of halal investing, any kinds of opportunities that have opened up. So, it’s definitely something that I’ve been really happy about keeping up with. And it’s definitely been just an absolutely amazing learning opportunity for me as well. Now that I can take it from those Reddit forums into the real world.

20:49 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you’ve created, I think in the entrepreneurship community, we call this a mastermind, right? A group of people, same people who regularly meet and talk about a certain topic and sort of hold each other accountable and push each other forward towards meeting your goals. That sounds absolutely brilliant. And something that I hope that other people replicate in their own communities or among their own friend networks. Are there any other ways that you would say that your practice of personal finance is different than that of your peers?

21:19 Joumana: Hmm. I don’t know that there are any huge differences really, but I think taking a halal approach to investing and saving money is always really grounding for me in that it acts as this constant reminder that at the end of the day, my finances are meant to serve an ethical role in the world. So, they’re not just a fulfillment for my own needs and desires, but that they also function in this greater sort of just way in the world. And I don’t know, I don’t know if that’s the kind of relationship that many of my peers have been able to cultivate with their finances. I know that many do, I know that many are very interested in socially responsible investments. But yeah, at the end of the day, that is deeply important for me to know about my own finances.

22:11 Emily: Yeah. I think you articulated that very well. It’s very inspiring to hear. I’ve actually recorded another interview on socially responsible investing. I’m not sure if that’ll be published first or if this one will be published first, but in any case, I’ll, I’ll try to link from the show notes to the other one, which is on sort of environmentally focused, socially responsible investing approach. So, these two complement each other very well, I think, in talking about those principles.

Best Financial Advice for an Early-Career PhD

22:34 Emily: So, final question here, Joumana, as we wrap up. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely else.

22:46 Joumana: Yeah. I think it’s incredibly easy to become overwhelmed when it comes to tracking money, especially as a grad student who is already not earning that much. But really, finding a system that works for you and supports your own mental health is way more important than applying every single piece of advice you read. So, really, the best financial advice that I can give to any other grad student is to do what works for you. To find a system that is helpful to you, and to explore all the options that exist out there. Because what works for someone might just be a terrible use of resources for you.

23:27 Emily: Yeah. I totally agree with that. These systems that we use for managing our money should absolutely be, you know, supporting and complimenting our lives and not be a super heavy burden or some onerous thing that we feel is like externally put on us. It definitely has to come from like within and be, of course, in adherence with your own values and your own priorities. It really should be something that makes you feel good and augments your life instead of, you know, feeling the reverse way. So, I hope that everyone can get to that point with their finances. And thank you so much for coming on the podcast and giving this interview. And you’re obviously, you know, very thoughtful about the subject and I’m so glad that you’ve learned about it and now you’re, you know, turning back around and helping your family and your community learn these principles as well. So, thank you very much.

24:14 Joumana: Thank you, Emily.

Outtro

24:14 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This PhD Student’s Budgeting Practice Enabled a Hawaiian Vacation

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In this episode, Emily interviews Sean from Authentically Average, a fourth-year PhD student at a university in Houston, TX. Sean and his wife have very intentionally set up their budget to reflect their values, and now live and die by their budget. Their top three budget priorities are retirement savings, tithing, and travel. Sean’s budget helps him say “no” to certain areas of spending or opportunities for spending so that he can say “yes” to his travel aspirations. Sean describes a wellness vacation he and his wife took to Hawaii and why travel is such a high priority right now.

Links Mentioned

budgeting for travel on a grad student stipend

Teaser

00:00 Sean: If you aren’t budgeting yet, try to get there as soon as possible. Tracking expenses is great and it’s helpful to get you in the right mindset. But until you are, I think, front end saying this is the money I will have coming in, here are the places it’s going to go, you can’t really capture your values fully and where to invest unless you’re doing it upfront.

Introduction

00:26 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 12. And today my guest is Sean from Authentically Average, a fourth year PhD student at a university in Houston, Texas. Sean, and his wife live and die by their budget. And they have put a lot of effort into making sure that their budget reflects their values. Their top three budget priorities are retirement savings, timing, and travel. Sean describes a vacation they took to Hawaii and the ways they minimize spending in lower priority areas of their life so that they can spend more on vacations and other types of experiential living. By the way, we recorded this interview in September, 2019. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Sean from authentically average.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:18 Emily: I am delighted to have joined me on the podcast day Sean, from Authentically Average. Authentically Average is the name of his blog. And Sean, I’ll just let you introduce yourself to the listeners.

01:28 Sean: Sure. Thanks Emily for having me. My name is Sean. I run the authentically average blog. I characterize myself as a PhD student, husband, chef, pretty much all of the above kind of general life stuff, and that’s the focus of the blogs, every day kind of living. I’m a PhD student in the 3D printing space. I just started my fourth year, so I’m hopefully approaching the light at the end of the tunnel. I live in Houston with my wife, Allie. We have nine children, and by children, I mean plants and most of them are still alive. I’m doing a PhD in 3D printing space. I got my bachelor’s in chemical engineering before that, went directly to grad school, and still trying to figure out what I’m looking for afterwards. I’m thinking like medical device route. That’s a really interesting space for me and the community in Houston is really kind of exploding right now, so I’m really passionate about trying to see that grow.

02:36 Emily: Yeah. Sounds really good. And I understand that your wife is a graduate student as well.

02:41 Sean: She is. My wife is getting her MBA currently. She’s super woman. She’s working full time and getting her MBA on the weekends. A lot of school at our house.

02:50 Emily: Yeah, that’s a full plate. I guess you might not be the busiest one in the household.

02:57 Sean: I think it goes both ways. The nicety of being a PhD student, sometimes, is depending on your advisor, the work schedule is not necessarily lighter, but more flexible. I tend to do a lot more of the, I talked about this briefly on my blog, but like, I tend to do a lot more of the household activities, like the cleaning and cooking and stuff, just because I’m the one that has the time for it. It’s like not always super sexy to talk about sometimes, but if I don’t cook, we don’t eat. Somebody’s got to do it. But we like to share. I mean, she’s got a lot on her plate right now from a professional capacity, so I’m happy to take on those other roles.

Translating Life Values to Your Budget

03:45 Emily: Yeah. And I guess that’s one of those things that you can talk about on a blog that is named Authentically Average. You can talk about your everyday experiences. And money of course, is among those. You recently published a post that was kind of talking about your financial values, which is something that I love to talk about. It’s the foundational concept in personal finance, yet not one that gets a lot of airtime, I feel like, unfortunately, so why don’t you go ahead and tell us about how your values inform how you use your money.

04:20 Sean: Sure. Thank you for that. A couple of weeks ago, the focus of that post was, and we can talk about this in a little bit, but I had gone on a vacation and some people were like, “Oh wow, this is great” and some people were kind of like, “okay, great, you went on this really nice vacation, but your blog is authentically average, how do you reconcile those?” I started thinking about it. I said, okay, I should probably take a step back. The value focus, like you said, is I think central to personal finance and making “smart” decisions with money, but not one that’s talked about a lot. Primarily the goal for that was “here are my values, here’s what I try to invest my money in, and by extension a little bit my time.”

Retirement Savings

05:10 Sean: For me and my wife, we have three top tier values, and then beyond that, everything kind of falls into place. The first one is financial security, so saving for retirement, making sure that we are doing the things we need to do now so that we can live comfortably later. I think that sometimes people get really caught up in this concept of like, I’m doing what I gotta do right now, and that’s fine. And sometimes they are not saving for retirement because they feel like they can’t and that there’s a lot there to kind of go through. And sometimes because they simply don’t think about it. The first time that I kind of understood the concept of like retirement savings and compounding interest and all of that, I started to notice, Oh, wow, there’s a lot of ground that I can make up here in my late twenties and set the stage for how my thirties and forties are going to go. That’s the first piece. The second piece is —

06:14 Emily: Actually, I want to make one offshoot comment to that because of course, saving for retirement is something that I love to talk about. One point that I really like to make when I’m speaking with graduate students or other sort of people on the younger side, younger and lower income side of things, is that if you look at those compound interest calculators, the time is what matters. I mean the time and the amount of money you save, of course they both matter, but the time — you wouldn’t believe what a little bit of extra time will get you in terms of increased returns. And so I always say, whatever amount…like if you feel like you can’t save anything okay, maybe that’s true, but if you can even find like $10, $50 a month that you can start putting away for that purpose, it’s unbelievable what a huge difference that makes on the back end of things, just to have those few extra years. Don’t be discouraged if you can’t save like a thousand dollars a month. That is a very large and unreasonable amount of money for a graduate student level of income, but a smaller amount of money makes a really, really big difference too.

07:18 Sean: Yeah, definitely. And just to kind of keep going on that thread, the stereotypical thing that people give of why you should start investing as early as possible is they talk about if you invest for 10 years from 20 to 30, the amount of money that you make during that time, by the time you retire, will outpace starting from 30 and moving forward. You can’t possibly catch up. Just like you said, sometimes I think people get like, Oh no, I can’t do that much., and that’s okay, but if you can do something, that’s great.

07:55 Emily: Yeah. I think one of the really difficult things that people run into early on is that they’re dealing with debt loads and they might have to clear those first before they can even touch the investing for retirement side of things. But since you’re already starting to invest retirement, I take it you’re either debt-free or you have debt that does not concern you.

08:14 Sean: We are debt free. I would say that my wife and I are very blessed, lucky, strategic, however you want to look at it, I guess. We paid our last debt off last year. I had an outstanding car note that I paid off. We again are very fortunate, I think, to be able to cash flow her MBA. That’s something that I think is a challenge, especially in higher education. I know that the finances for PhDs vary pretty drastically depending on field. In my PhD program, it’s tuition free, and we collect a stipend for working here. When I think about my PhD, I think about it more as job than I think an education of being a student. And I think collecting a paycheck helps me keep that association clear. So yeah, we are debt free. We are investing some. I’d like to be investing more, but also, you know, like you just said, there are different things that we’re trying to take care of and trying to keep all the balls in the air at the same time.

09:23 Sean: Yeah, definitely. Okay. So that is one of your top priorities, is saving for retirement. What’s the next one?

Experiential Living

09:30 Sean: So there’s two more. The second one would be, we have a really big focus on, I call it experiential living, but in the current case it’s travel. I joked about having plant children. Allie and I don’t have any kids yet. We have plans to have kids, but we just don’t have them right now. We have this focus on like, if there are things that would either be impossible or significantly more difficult to do when we have kids and when we’re older, we’d love to do them now. That post that you mentioned earlier about our travel, we went to Maui for a week over the summer. That was born out of like, “Hey, this is a great time to just go and spend a week in Hawaii and just, you know, live it up.” I mean, responsibly, but this is great. After saving for retirement, our next focus is, Hey, we want to have a good time, and for us having a good time looks like going out and exploring.

10:33 Emily: So I was really curious about this term, you just used — experiential living. Right now you said it looks like travel. What are the other things that might fall under that category for you?

10:42 Sean: I guess one thing is I know that some people, their focus is they want this nice X or Y. I think Allie and I, we would much rather save up money for a few pay periods and go to a nice concert or go see a play or a musical or something than buy a new TV or buy something else for the house. We do live in a nice apartment and we’ve decorated and all of that, but we would much rather do something that’s I think a little bit more like out and active. There’s not anything good or bad about that, or any other way. That’s just our preference.

11:24 Emily: Okay. So is this basically boiling down to the personal finance experiences versus stuff debate where everyone has kind of come down to the side of experiences? Is that what I’m hearing

11:36 Sean: Somewhat, yeah. I think that the stuff thing, depending on what the stuff is, is very valuable, in terms of having stuff and, and that’s all fine. But also I know just from, we did the like whole KonMari thing a couple months ago and realized, Oh, I have a lot of stuff. It was nice at the time, but in hindsight I would rather, I think have spent the money that I spent on that stuff on doing something.

12:06 Emily: Yeah. I actually heard this really great thing on a podcast recently. It was on the ChooseFI podcast and the, one of the people that they were interviewing, I can’t remember who the guest was said, something like he strives to have one memorable moment per month, some new thing that he’s never tried before. Travel would certainly fall under that, but it could be like a cooking class or like just doing something different out of your routine, once per month, he has that goal to make a memory, basically, with his wife. And actually it can be the same moment or they can have two different moments, one that each one prefers more per month, but that was his goal. And I thought that was amazing, and I really want to implement it in my life now, because I do feel like months can go by where it’s like, yeah, what happened that was great or notable or important, I’m not even sure.

12:59 Emily: Okay. So experiences, concerts, travel, that kind of stuff. And so right now your focus is doing the things that you would have a harder time doing once you have children. And I will have to say that when I read your post about your vacation, I was like, how do I get rid of my kids for a week, so I can do this. It sounds awesome. What is your third top priority?

Tithing

13:20 Sean: Again, so saving for retirement, travel and experiential living. The third one, honestly, is giving back and tithing. My wife and I tithe every pay period. I know sometimes as graduate students that can seem like a tumultous topic. We already do not make all that much money —

13:45 Emily: Actually, Sean, let’s pause there because some of the listeners might not be familiar with the term “tithe”, could you define that?

13:51 Sean: Sure. In a traditional tithe you would be giving, donating a 10th or some amounts. I mean, tithe literally is “10th”, but giving some amount back to your church family. My wife and I are Catholic. We give back to, we split between the church that we currently go to and then we also support a couple of students through the FOCUS program. They do ministry on college campuses throughout the United States. Good clarification. We give back to our church. For us, we do a traditional 10% tithe. That’s just, I think how we have decided that that’s where we want to put that value at. Does that kind of answer that?

14:39 Emily: Yeah. It’s not something that’s come up on the podcast hardly at all, but we also tithe and have for throughout graduate school, a long time. And it definitely, while I knew other graduate students from our church who also did that practice, it wasn’t something that I felt like was really widespread or something that graduate students could really get a handle on that large percentage. The 10% is a very, very large chunk of your income, but, I feel like tithing for me in terms of like the budget actually pushed us towards what I call percentage-based budgeting. If a 10th of your gross income is going towards that, we also did a certain percentage, it changed over time, starting at 10%, for like saving for retirement and then now we’re up to like 20%, so we’ve increased that over time. And I’m trying to remember, well, taxes are also sort of, not exactly a percentage, but you can convert them to a percentage of your income, so for us, it was like these different goals scale with the amount of money that we make, which I really liked that there was like this flexible percentage. The percentage is fixed, but the amount of money is changes depending on what your income is.

15:51 Emily: I really liked that way of thinking about budgeting, that you should have percentages going towards different things. And it actually goes pretty well with the balanced money formula. I don’t know if you’re familiar with this at all. It basically says that you should keep your necessary expenses below half of your take home pay. And I really liked that as well because, I think for graduate students, there’s this phrase that Dave Ramsey uses that I really like, not for graduate schools, but for people in general, which is something like “act your wage”, something along those lines. I think this percentage-based budgeting, I think, is really appropriate for people who have incomes that they expect to change a lot, like graduate school. Hopefully it’ll be going up alive later on, but if you have those percentages it can keep you really grounded and something can be consistent through those fluctuations in income basically.

16:44 Sean: Right. Definitely. Yeah. We do a similar thing in terms of trying to make sure that we’re doing a percentage breakdown on our budget. One small detail, we do typically everything on net pay, and then also when we get a tax return, I mean, ideally our tax return is zero, right. But if we do get a tax return, then we’ll do the same thing on whatever the return is. But I think it basically shakes out to be the same thing. I have found that to be really helpful. I feel like it helps us recognize where are we essentially overspending in our lives, and conversely, where could we be giving more attention, certainly.

Living and Dying By Your Budget

17:32 Emily: A phrase that I read in your recent post was we live and die by our budget, and that really stuck out because you talked about, I guess, that your budget is a plan for how you’re going to spend your money. And if opportunities arise after you’ve made the, you oftentimes say no to those opportunities, you stick with your original plan. I just wanted to ask you about that. How did you guys put together your budget, and how do you find the fortitude to stick with it?

18:02 Sean: I mentioned this very briefly before, disclaimer, this is not an ad, wish it was an ad, but it’s not, my wife and I use it’s called YNAB, or You Need A Budget. It’s a budgeting tool online that you use, to keep everything in order. One of the, I think, nice things about living and dying by your budget is it tells you how much money you’ve budgeted and allocated to every, whatever category you want to put it in. And if you overspend, the color of the money bar goes from a nice, pretty green to a very angry red color. And that’s just like, I think, maybe potentially a little bit of an immature way, but it’s really reinforcing for me of like, Hey, you made your money angry because you spent more than you allocated.

18:56 Sean: I joke about that sometimes living and dying by our budget. Really, it’s taken a lot of discipline to get to the point that we are now and give yourself grace and patience to get there as you’re working through things and things come up, of course. But we’re in a space right now where we have a set of goals, like I talked about, and a set of values. Sometimes things come up that don’t align with those, or potentially detract a little bit from them and we have to make a mature decision on like, Hey, is it worth us to do this? So one of the things I talk about in that post is, a friend of ours came to us and said, Hey, we want to go to this football game, last minute. Allie and I are huge college football fans, I went to a big football school for undergrad. Great, right, in terms of an interest standpoint, I think that’s great.

19:55 Sean: We started to look at the finances and said man, this is going to be like a thousand dollar trip just out of the blue. And I think at the beginning of the year, had we started the year and said, Hey, we want this to come up and we want to plan for this — great, okay, we’ll budget for it. But a few weeks out, we had to say, no. I mean, first of all, based on our budget, we literally did not have the money to do it without taking money from other standpoints. I really struggle with the idea of pulling money that we had saved for retirement out of retirement to go to a football game. But more than that, I think it’s sometimes difficult when you…This is always a challenge when you have very diverse friend groups is like, everybody has their own different set of values. And I want those people to understand, like friends of mine, that sometimes I to turn things down. Like, hey, I love you guys. You’re great, I appreciate everything about you, and I appreciate our relationship, but just understand that me not wanting to come out, or me not wanting to do this last minute, isn’t a reflection on like our relationship and is a reflection on I just don’t have the money for it according to what my wife and I decided it was important to us.

21:11 Emily: Yeah. There’s another blogger, content creator in the personal finance space, Paula and her brand is Afford Anything. And so her tagline is kind of like, “you can afford anything, but you can’t afford everything.” She’s really, like you were just saying, you have to get really clear about what’s important to you because you want to be able to say yes to the things that are at the top of your list. And that does mean saying no to the things that fall further down and that’s hard. But you can’t say yes to everything. If you say yes to everything, you’ll end up saying no to the things that are most important to you, if you accept every opportunity that comes your way.

21:52 Emily: I have to say though, your story reminded me of when I was in graduate school. I went to Duke and Duke won two championships while I was there 2010 and 2015. 2015 was technically after I defended, but I was still enrolled as a student and I still had tickets to games and stuff. So anyway, in 2010, of course you never know, going in to the tournament, how it’s going to turn out. And at the last second, we had an opportunity to go to the Final Four. Duke went, and my husband and I had the opportunity to attend. They were giving away tickets for students. It was actually free. The tickets were free. All you had to do was get there and stay there. And we really deliberated, and I don’t know that it came down to mostly a financial decision. There were other time reasons why we decided not to go. We had already traveled actually the previous year to see them play and they hadn’t advanced, and so we already had like, kind of that disappointment. So we decided against going, and of course in 2010, they ended up winning, same story in 2015. That’s just one of my major regrets from when I was in graduate school, because I was a fan, that I let anything stand in the way of like attending those events. So I do think that my main regrets from graduate school, in terms of my personal life were things that I didn’t do that money played into why I didn’t do it. It probably wasn’t the whole situation, but yeah, there’s two times I can point to an opportunity came my way and I said no to it, a very reasoned decision, and I really think that was the wrong way to go.

23:27 Sean: Yeah. And sometimes I think that that’s a struggle because we’ve done a couple of things too, where it’s like, Oh, this is such a good opportunity to do this thing. Sometimes, and I say this with a mountain of salt, occasionally we will not live and die by the budget. And the only way that that works is to have intentionally over allocated somewhere else, so that the total amount of money is still there, like the money to cover a different decision is still there. It’s not like we’re living outside of our means, but we do give ourselves a little bit of grace. Sometimes I’m like, this is a really big deal. That trip to Hawaii was pretty much entirely planned for, but there were a couple of things once we got there, that was like, you know what, we’re here, I think we’ll regret this thing if we don’t do it, let’s do it and we’ll figure it out.

24:27 Emily: Yeah. I think that strategy of over saving or just saving for things that you don’t know quite what you’re saving for — at some point a friend will invite you to do something, at some point you’ll have an opportunity to come your way that you’ll want to say yes to at the last second. And I think the way that most people who are not on top of their finances would handle it would just say, okay, I’m going to put it on a credit card, I’ll worry about how to pay for it later, which is not a great strategy. But if you save in advance and you’re just not totally sure what that money is going to go for, but you’re pretty sure something’s going to pique your fancy along the way then you can be able to say yes again to those opportunities, knowing that it’s still within everything you’ve allocated for an advance,

25:08 Sean: Just a small insight, we have a category in our budget called “stuff we forgot to budget for”, and we put a small amount, however much, in there every pay period just because inevitably something comes up. Now, if it’s an emergency, we have separate money set aside. You mentioned Dave Ramsey earlier — we have a separate emergency fund set aside for that kind of thing. This is more like your friend asked you to do something, you have an opportunity to go watch Duke win a championship, whatever.

25:44 Emily: Yeah, exactly.

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25:48 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

Frugal Tips for Experiential Living

26:34 Emily: So I’m wondering if you have any ways, any sort of frugal things that you’ve done in your life that help you have these experiences that you want have. Either minimizing the money that it takes to do those things or minimizing other areas in your budget so that you can free up more money for your top priority. Are there any like really good strategies you use in that vein?

26:58 Sean: I think the stereotypical student might fight this a little bit. I’ll start with the like ways of like daily life first. We cook 99% of our meals. That’s just the way it is. For me that’s two reasons. That post that I wrote is primarily about investing your money in what you value, but there’s also a small segment on investing your time in what you value and no question about it, cooking for yourself takes it takes time. It costs money to go buy groceries and it takes time to cook those meals. I think it’s easier to go out to eat, from a time perspective or pick up quick ready meals and that kind of thing, but from a time perspective, like at that point, I’m investing in my health. It’s almost exclusively healthier for you to cook for yourself than it is to go out to eat, and it’s almost exclusively less expensive to cook for yourself too. In that post I talk about, Allie and I have been discussing potentially giving ourselves a little bit more room on this and kind of grace on this for when we want to go out. We don’t go out to eat ever. Like once every couple of weeks and the reasoning for that is, whatever amount of money I would spend on going out to eat a couple nights a week is better suited towards saving for Hawaii, or, we’ve been married for just over a year, for our honeymoon we went to Italy. We spent two weeks there. That’s not an inconsequential trip size, and the only way that that works is you’re making cuts, so to speak, elsewhere in your life.

28:37 Sean: The other thing for us has been we’re busy people. She’s in school part time, well, no she’s in school full time and working full time, and I’m working full time and doing things at home. And so it’s really important for us to invest in our marriage. Regular date nights are important, but it doesn’t always have to be this five star restaurant. Those types of things are nicem, but I think I also get 90 plus percent of the relationship building component from that type of date from going to somewhere kind of casual, hole-in-the-wall, or going on an experience. We talked about this this morning, actually. It’s been a couple weeks since we had a formal date, and one thing that we’re going to do next week is we’re going clothes shopping and we’re going to Marshall’s-hop. There’s like seven of them within a 10 mile radius of us and we’re just gonna — we found that when we hit, we really hit there, but they’re very hit and miss, but there’s a lot of them, so we can kind of hop between and see. I think that that might sound somewhat silly to some people, but for us, we like investing in clothes that makes us feel good and feel professional, but also not breaking the bank and this “adventuring”, so to speak, and helping each other try things on — that I think is a fun relationship building activity that literally the travel aspect only costs the gas, and then we would have budgeted for the clothes. There’s that aspect on like life-hacking.

30:11 Sean: From a travel hacking standpoint, honestly, it’s just time. You have to decide how much your time is worth, but we always look for great deals on hotels and flights. Google has a flight tracker that you can use. It’ll send you alerts when your flights fall. I do the same thing for a lot of the hotels. A lot of third party websites are great. For Italy, actually this, this is a great story. For Italy, the flights were going to be like, I don’t remember like $1800 a piece or something, like a lot of money. We went in May, so like the beginning of high season, I get it. Then, the day before I was going to buy, because they weren’t falling, I said, “Oh, let me just look on another website.” I went on, I think it was Priceline or one of the third party website and it was like half that, together. I was like, “Yes, I’m absolutely doing this. We’ll take a weird layover to save half the cost. You could write a book about that, but that’s the things that I think of.

31:15 Emily: Yeah. I think when your goal is to have experiences and make memories and so forth, I guess there’s been research on this that like the anticipation of the experience is a big component of your satisfaction with it. And so taking the time to plan, and do whatever travel hacking and price comparisons and all of that, it actually enhances like your ultimate experience when you put a lot of effort into it upfront. I don’t know, to me it’s a little bit counter-intuitive, but yeah. So pursuing these travel hacking strategies, um, in addition to saving money can actually make you feel better about the whole thing. I guess what I was thinking about when you’re talking, especially about like the food and not spending so much money on eating out and so forth. That was a strategy that we used also. We cut out basically all kinds of convenience food, in favor of cooking for ourselves. And that is like a little bit of a sacrifice because yeah, you have to plan it a little bit more and all that, that goes into cooking. But for us, like for you, the money that we were not spending on convenience eating went towards our travel fund. And so when we knew exactly where the money that we would’ve spent on one thing was going to go, if we didn’t actually carry through with the eating out or whatever it was, that makes the whole thing a lot more palatable. It makes the whole thing go down easier if you know, okay, yeah, I’m sacrificing a little bit in this moment right here, but that is going to enable something really fantastic later on.

32:43 Sean: Right, right, right, right.

32:45 Emily: Any other frugal strategies around those things, either minimizing expenses on things you really want to do or cutting expenses and things that are not such a high priority?

32:54 Sean: I think the only additional thing that I’ll add is — it’s especially common, I think because like I, as a PhD understand or PhD student, rather, my time is limited. I think that my time is a little bit larger than some other people’s because I just try to make a point of, I’m only working X hours this week. Like this is my job and I’m putting this much into it. And that sometimes works for people and sometimes doesn’t. But I see a lot of, because we have such little free time, convenience buying and convenience spending somewhat to kind of what you, you mentioned earlier. And I think in some ways you do have to give yourself a little bit of that because the amount that you stress over not making convenient spend is also a use of resources, maybe not for the best. Just watch it. I always go back to “live and die by the budget”. Until I had a budget that I like actually did religiously every week and every pay period, I didn’t have a clue. And I started to look at my spending habits and said, man, I didn’t realize I was spending this much on snacks, or this much on cable and this other thing that I don’t even use. It just, it never occurred to me because I was always tracking my spending after the fact that never really looking forward any further than the next couple of weeks.

34:20 Emily: Yeah. I mean, tracking your spending is an amazing thing to do as like a first step. It actually does start to change your behavior in many cases. But if you’re just tracking it as a passive activity and it’s not actually balancing, okay, well, where do I want my money to go? And do I prefer it here? Or do I prefer it there? That’s what you have to do with your budgeting. They’re both really useful, um, activities, but I guess once the shock of the tracking wears off and you make whatever sort of subconscious changes you’re going to want to make from that, you need to start budgeting to get that further of value add from the activity.

When Budgeting Pays Off: Sean’s Trip to Hawaii

34:54 Emily: So we’ve teased this enough. Tell us about your trip to Hawaii, that made me so jealous.

35:01 Sean: We went to Maui specifically. We went to Hana, which is a very small town on the East coast of Maui. Allie was really into this idea of like a wellness retreat. And I did, I think the stereotypical husband thing that I hate and I was like, what are you talking about? No. And then I started to look into it. I was like, Oh, this actually sounds pretty awesome. So I was like, okay, yeah, let’s go for it, sure. There was a resort there called the Travaasa, just right in the town. Hana is not really the type of place that you go to and stay at unless you go to this hotel. There’s not a city center. It’s people that live there and this hotel and that’s it.

35:45 Sean: So we went and we said, okay, you know, let’s do it. This sounds great, let’s go. The only thing I’ll say about traveling to Hana is getting to the airports, great, but there’s a very famous road there called the road to Hana and it’s like 90 degree turns the whole way. It’s 40 or 50 miles and it took us three hours. You’re crawling and it’s crazy. But scenery is amazing and beautiful. The little food stops on the way are great. And then once we actually got there, it was just like paradise. It’s still the States, so there is cell service, but there’s no wifi available. The cell service is kind of shaky, we turned our work phones off, and just lived, and it was awesome.

36:34 Sean: There’s there was a lot to do there. They have a spa on site. I’m not a huge massage/spa person, but I was the most relaxed I’ve ever been in my whole life that week. The food was awesome. There was waterfront yoga and like paddle boarding and horseback riding and just like all of this stuff that we don’t ever do in our daily lives. It was really awesome to just for once I think go and just exist. My wife and I, in particular, but I think more generally PhD students and other graduate students, you’re just going nonstop all the time, and there’s not really any moment where you kind of just sit back and you’re like, “Hey, I’m not thinking about anything about tomorrow, except whether I want to do this cool thing or that cool thing.” I don’t know, I think that was a nice refresher for us.

37:34 Sean: Everything about it was super chill. The only not super chill thing about it is, there was actually a wildfire on the West side of the island while we were there. We went back to catch our flight and all the planes are delayed because they’re trying to get people that live there, like out of danger. Things are, I don’t want to say fine because you know, wildfires are extremely dangerous and there was a lot of damage there. People are generally fine. There were a lot of people that got helped. Everybody was safe. I don’t recall seeing any reports of fatalities, which is incredible. But for us, we’re literally there with our bags in a very small airport on Maui and we’re just like, “all right, guess we’ll chill.” I think a small price to pay, obviously relative to potentially losing your home in a fire, of course. But for us, nobody told us anything. Our airline didn’t give us any updates. We just got there and they were like, we’ll see what happens. Like I said, there’s a much longer post about it with pictures that are describing it way better than I can tell it, but highly recommend. Would definitely do it again. It was great.

38:54 Emily: What really struck me about the, your description of this vacation was that I didn’t do anything like that when I was in graduate school, except for my honeymoon. The honeymoon was relaxing. I mentioned that we saved a lot for travel before, but it was all obligation travel, all of it. We were usually traveling domestically to either see our families, or go to weddings, or attend reunions. Other stuff where somebody else was dictating the schedule, the timing, the place, all of that. I’m not trying to say that was a…We wanted to do it. We wanted to do all that obligation travel. Going to weddings is really important to us. That’s a high value for us, but it just kind of squeezed out any other possibility of taking a vacation that was just for us and just for the purposes of recuperation. There were always other purposes for the trips — seeing certain people, or witnessing certain events. Looking back on it, I did not give myself a proper amount of rest, throughout that process. And it’s still something that I struggle with, so I’m really glad that you guys, made it a priority, made the time for it. Hopefully you’ll do it a few more, maybe not the same vacation, but something similar, a few more times during graduate school so you guys can finish strong and finish healthy. So that sounds amazing, and yeah, we can point people to the post from the show notes.

Financial Advice for Early Career PhDs

40:23 Emily: As we finish up here Sean standard question that I ask all my guests — what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something related to what we’ve talked about today, or it could be something entirely different.

40:36 Sean: Sure. Just because we’re towards the end, I’ll give two quick ones, because I think they’re both very important. The first one we’ve touched about a few times is if you aren’t budgeting yet, try to get there as soon as possible. Like you said, tracking expenses is great and it’s helpful to get you in the right mindset. But until you are, I think front end, saying this is the money I will have coming in, here are the places it’s going to go, you can’t really capture your values fully in like where to invest unless you’re doing it on the front end. So that’s the first thing that I recommend.

41:12 Sean: The other thing is, depending on your program, especially for PhD students on grants and fellowships, so kind of take that with a very specific niche market in mind, sometimes you will be allowed to pursue other things outside of your degree and have side jobs and side hustles. I know, recently talked to another student, here in Houston who, I think was baby-sitting or dog-sitting. Am I remembering that right?

41:39 Emily: Pet-sitting.

41:39 Sean: Pet-sitting, right. And like, okay, great. So she had a side hustle and that’s awesome. Sometimes you can and look around for what things are available because the extra cash is really useful. Sometimes you can’t, on paper. They expect you to be in the lab, and if you have time that you could be giving to another job, you should be spending it in the lab. And I think my recommendation for that is more of a career-related one. You’re a graduate student and you’re contributing to the academic space. That’s beneficial to the field. It should also be beneficial to you, and so I think that I always recommend that students take opportunities that they find, when they become available, in stride, because it may be a value add to their career or to their finances, that isn’t necessarily a value add to their academic education. And that’s okay. I think sometimes we get this feeling of guilt of like, I’m not working hard enough in the lab. And if that’s true, okay, work harder in the lab, but if it’s not true and you can be doing other things that are beneficial for you, it’s okay to do things outside of lab. And I really struggled with that when I first got to graduate school, and I see that as a common struggle now.

42:55 Emily: Yeah, I guess, so I’ve been reading a lot about like time management, recently, to work on my own time management practices, and I guess one thing I’ve learned, I’ve been reading and listening to a lot of Laura Vanderkam’s stuff, and so she references research that’s on…First of all, that people don’t work as much as they say they do. Like people who are reporting that they work 80 hour weeks, almost always are never working more than like 55 hours a week. They may be at work for 80 hours a week, and that’s not a good return on your investment of time, is just to be around more. You should be resting or doing other things instead of that. But another part of that is that there’s sort of an optimal amount of work that you can put into something in a given week, and once you start going beyond that, your returns for the amount of time you’re putting in decrease and decrease and decrease. After 40 or 45 hours, you may be putting in more time, but you’re not necessarily getting that much more of it. It’s kind of this like 80/20 principle.

43:51 Sean: Yup, definitely.

43:52 Emily: Yeah. So I’ll just say like on that time management component, that it can really be beneficial for you if you don’t consider research to be like a black hole, you just throw more and more and more and more time into, that’s not necessarily the best way to approach it, but rather more like managing your energy and managing your time as well. And if that gives you time to pivot to a side hustle or hobby or, you know, exercise or whatever it is you want to do, that’s probably going to end up giving you more energy rather than taking away from your work. Do you know what I mean?

44:22 Sean: Right, definitely.

44:22 Emily: Just like taking vacations, you don’t do it necessarily for the reason of being more productive, but you probably are more productive when you come back from it.

44:29 Sean: Absolutely.

Where to Find Sean Online

44:33 Emily: Where can people find you if they want to read your blog or follow up with you elsewhere?

44:37 Sean: Sure. I’ll send these over so you can put them on the show notes as well. The name of the blog is Authentically Average. It’s authenticallyaverage.com. No hyphens or spaces. On Instagram and Pinterest I’m @AuthenticallyAverage, one word. Twitter was a little weird and I have @AuthenticAvg. That’s where you can find all of the different ways to connect with me. The two posts that we talked about today are up as pins on Pinterest. I can send those over and people can look at them if they want to. I love using Pinterest, just as a side note, I think it’s been really fun. If you are in the 3D-printing space and see me at an academic conference, come and say hey. I’m not shy. If you happen to recognize me, I’m happy to talk and all of that.

43:33 Emily: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and having this great discussion with me, Sean.

45:37 Sean: Yeah. Thank you for having me

Outtro

45:39 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How This Grad Student Navigated a Broken Engagement in a High Cost-of-Living City

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In this episode, Emily interviews Tina Del Carpio, a third-year PhD student at the University of California at Los Angeles in ecology and evolutionary biology. Tina chose their PhD program in Los Angeles in no small part because their fiance’s career was tied to the city. However, when they moved in with him and started planning the wedding, cracks began to form in the relationship. When they broke up, Tina had to figure out how to extricate themself from their shared apartment and yours-mine-and-ours financial system. Fortunately, Tina landed on their feet with the help of their NSF Graduate Research Fellowship, understanding advisor, and network of supportive friends. At the beginning and end of the episode, Tina and Emily also discuss the power of self-advocacy in graduate school.

Links Mentioned

grad student breakup

Teaser

00:00 Tina: Thankfully, we also talked about what would happen if we broke up, even before I moved out here. I was very adamant about having my own support network and knowing that I’d be able to survive without, if things just didn’t work or we’d gotten divorced or something.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast to higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode ten, and today my guest is Tina Del Carpio a third year PhD student at UCLA in ecology and environmental biology. Tina chose their PhD program in Los Angeles in no small part because their fiance’s career was tied to the city. However, when they moved in with him and started planning, the wedding, cracks began to form in the relationship. When they broke up, Tina had to figure out how to extricate themself from their shared apartment and “yours, mine and ours” financial system. Listen through the end of the interview to hear how Tina handles their finances these days, and they’re excellent advice for other early career PhDs on advocating for yourself. By the way we recorded this interview in September, 2019. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Tina Del Carpio.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further

01:19 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today. Tina Del Carpio, who is a graduate student at UCLA, and we’re discussing a little bit of a tough topic today, which is Tina’s breakup from about a year and a half ago. They had a little bit of financial commingling before the breakup and had to disentangle themselves from one another afterwards, which was a challenging thing to do in the midst of graduate school. Tina, I’m so delighted to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. And will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

01:47 Tina: Of course. Thanks for having me on Emily. My name’s Tina Del Carpio, my preferred pronouns are they/them or she/her. I’m a second year PhD student at UCLA, or I guess about to be a third year PhD student at UCLA. My focus is on genetics and epigenetics of canids, specifically dogs and foxes.

Getting Engaged, Starting Grad School and Moving to LA

02:10 Emily: Okay, so we need to take this story back to when you started graduate school. How did you make the decision to go to UCLA? What factors were you?

02:19 Tina: Yeah, so this is actually really entangled with my relationship because at the time, my partner and I had been long distance for about five years and he was working in the film industry, so his life and his job were very tied out to LA. I geographically restricted my search to universities near Los Angeles, or ideally in Los Angeles. I was very fortunate to make a connection with a postdoc from the lab that I currently I’m a student in. I talked to her about her experience in the lab and the project that she was sort of leaving behind as she was graduating. I got really interested in that project and was looking to pick it up and met with her and the advisor, my now advisor, Bob Wayne, and we talked about the project and they helped me put together an application for the NSF GRFP. I ended up being awarded that fellowship. This all happened kind of very quickly. We actually had this conversation, decided for me to apply for the NSF, like a week before it was due. I actually only applied to UCLA in that case and figured “oh it’s a crap shoot. I probably won’t get in, and I’ll just stay on track with my other plan to just apply to a bunch of schools the following year.” But it worked out, I got funding and it was in my ideal city, and with an advisor was happy to work with.

03:49 Emily: That is an incredible story, not even the one that we’re focused on today, but I love hearing about sort of non-traditional ways of finding your way into a PhD lab. You networked your way basically into this, right? You said you first connected with a postdoc who was leaving the lab, then that connection led you to the advisor and put together this NSF application, which by the way in a week, that was successful. That is incredible! Good job on that. How did you first make that connection with that postdoc?

04:22 Tina: Yeah, so it’s funny. I literally was thinking about, okay, I changed jobs, I was working as a lab tech gaining more research experience to apply to grad school, and I had just sort of wistfully bookmarked a bunch of labs that I was interested in applying to in about a year. Then my boss announced that we’re getting a new postdoc. It happened that she was coming from one of the labs that I had bookmarkedm and when she came out to look for housing and to make some plans to settle in, in North Carolina, I kind of cornered her and was like, “Hey, so I’m interested in applying to the Wayne lab, can you tell me about the Wayne lab.” Also, it happened to line up with, I was about to be in LA visiting my ex, and so I was like, “Hey, I’m going to be there next week, can we meet up in person, and can you give me a face to face introduction with Bob?”

05:15 Emily: That is incredible. I mean, this is how networking works. It’s not like you were in some unrelated lab, right? You were already on the course to be studying something related to what you would ultimately do in graduate school. Of course there are related labs and people know each other and you run into people. That’s a wonderful story. It’s actually not that dissimilar from how I got into my graduate school, which is that my husband started — we graduate from college at the same time, but he started graduate school at Duke immediately, whereas I did a postbac year. And so, because I was regularly visiting him in Durham, I was especially interested in getting into Duke, and I basically used one of my visits to see him as like, “Hey, various professors that I’m interested in, why don’t I set up my own interview with you?” all prior to admission season even starting and made a few connections there. Ultimately applied to Duke and various other places and went through kind of the normal admissions route after that point, but then ultimately circle back around, and one of the people who I had created my own interview with ultimately, you know, offered me a position and he was my advisor during graduate school. These things, if you have the motivation, sometimes they do work out. I’m really glad that we have that story upfront.

06:28 Emily: Okay, so you were awarded the NSF GRF, that’s awesome, and you’re starting at UCLA and you’re finally living in the same city as your partner. What was going on with you guys like logistically and financially at that time?

06:40 Tina: Yeah. Things are getting a little bit more commingled and complicated at that point. When I actually got the NSF and got accepted to UCLA, because actually I initially wasn’t accepted and wasn’t even invited on the official interview weekend, but suddenly having your own funding for three years opens doors.

07:01 Emily: No kidding.

07:02 Tina: Yeah. So I got the NSF award and then shortly afterwards we got engaged, and then planned a wedding, made a lot of wedding deposits, and then I moved out into LA. Part of the navigating how to do our finances together, we basically decided we’d each keeps some of our money separate, but we opened together a checking account, a savings account, and a credit card, so we could both funnel some money into that and use that to build up a little bit of shared savings and also to pay off any expenses, groceries, rent, things related to the wedding, et cetera.

07:43 Emily: I want to ask a little bit more about that because this is becoming a very popular model, whereas maybe a few decades ago, a vast majority of couples were using fully joint finances. Some minority were using fully separate finances. Now this “yours, mine and ours” model is becoming very, very popular. As you said, most people use it for shared expenses like rent, like you were just saying, you had the wedding that you were putting down deposits for all that kind of thing. How did you decide on the split? Were you guys contributing equal amounts of money to your joint accounts? Or was it maybe by a percentage of income or how did you navigate that?

08:23 Tina: Yeah, so I guess the tricky part we were navigating was housing costs because my ex made about double what I was making, even on an NSF salary or stipend. We ended up deciding for housing that we would pay housing proportional, so he paid two thirds of our rent and I paid one third, especially moving from Durham, my rent went from $400 for my half of a two bed, two bath to we had a like $2,400, one bed, one and a half bathroom apartment. So my rent was changing significantly and also I was eating up a bunch of moving costs. So housing, we decided to do proportionately, but everything else we decided to just split 50/50.

09:10 Emily: At least it was the conversation that you had. That is a great point that you’re at least coming to a firm decision and have a strategy for addressing it. So the place that you were living, which was out of your price range, it sounds like, or I guess was it actually, so like, would you have made a different housing decision had you been moving there as a single person or maybe looking to find a roommate or like what would have been different and how much do you think you would have been paying?

09:35 Tina: Yeah, so I would have definitely looked for something different because it was…well, there was also a lot of uncertainty for me of like, what are my housing costs going to be? Even coming to LA my car insurance went up significantly and that’s actually a thing that I also commingled with my ex. He had USAA, which has a great insurance discount. I added my car onto his, onto his insurance, and so it took me a little while to navigate that and figure that out. But initially the budget I had set for myself was $800 for my rent. And then eventually, you know, I had to reconcile that when we were breaking up.

10:16 Tina: Thankfully we also talked about what would happen if we broke up, even before I moved out here, because my mom got divorced after like 20 years of marriage and I saw the financial struggles my mom went through because she had stopped working to take care of her three kids and the house and things. Then my dad lost his job and all these other problems. And of course, issues between my parents that led to them being divorced. I just watched my mom struggle a lot with her finances without my father to help support her anymore, so I was very adamant about having my own support network and knowing that I’d be able to survive without, if things just didn’t work out or if we’d gotten divorced or something. I feel like I I kinda lost the thread there, what were we talking about?

11:06 Emily: What different housing decisions might you have made? This rolls into what housing decision did you make once you guys decided to split up. Have we concluded talking about all the intermingling that was going on prior to the breakup? Is that about what the full picture was?

11:24 Tina: Yeah, I think so. I think the point I was trying to get to earlier that I lost was we talked about if we broke up and especially when we actually did break up, there was like a couple of months of us discussing it before it actually happened. But we reaffirmed that if we broke up, we would continue paying for the apartment that same way. That I would still just be paying a third and that he would continue paying two thirds, and he ended up moving out since he had family and places to go here, and my nearest family members are in Florida. I stayed living in the apartment for a couple of months until the lease was resolved and he continued to pay that two thirds of the apartment. Thankfully that was something we had discussed and agreed upon long before the breakup.

Financial Ramifications of Breaking of The Engagement

12:08 Emily: Yeah. I think we can move into kind of talking about that second phase now. It sounds like it was a long conversation. You guys had a long relationship, you were on the track to getting married, this is not something to be undertaken lightly. So you were having these conversations over a relatively long period of time. And of course, one of your concerns was how do I provide for myself in this transition to not being in this partnership any longer? So one of the things that you discussed and agreed on was the rent split. What else did you have to do once you guys decided that this breakup is official, the engagement is off? What other things had to happen to fully separate from one another?

12:46 Tina: I think the housing was the biggest thing because we broke up before our lease expired. It was like this big burden and I talked to the landlord and he told us that if we could rent the apartment to somebody else, he’d be willing to terminate our lease. Actually, I got into like kind of a sticky situation that I didn’t have the emotional energy to deal with, but where he was like, okay, I’ll advertise the apartment, but I need you guys to show the apartment. Even after we had actually moved our stuff out and we’re no longer living there, he was still like, no, you guys have to show it, I’m not gonna drive over and show it. I was still devoting time and energy to that, and it ended up still being worth it. It took a couple months to rent the apartment to somebody else, but we managed to end the lease at least a month early. For me getting back that $800 was huge.

13:43 Emily: Yeah. So the housing situation was the main one. It sounds like your ex was pretty generous, or maybe you would say reasonable, right? He was okay with continuing to pay your agreed upon portions of the rent for the amount of time necessary, but you were still doing what you needed to do to get out of it as soon as possible.

Commercial

14:03 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude, the deadline for filing your federal tax return and making your quarters one and two estimated tax payments was extended to July 15th, 2020. I never expected to still be talking about taxes into the summer, but here we are. Post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows still need major help in this area because of their unique situation. I provide tons of support to PhD trainees preparing their tax returns and calculating their estimated tax. Go to PFforPhDs.com/tax to read my free articles and find out if one of my tax workshops is right for you. I have one workshop on how to prepare your annual tax return and one how to determine if you owe quarterly estimated tax. Both workshops include videos, supplemental documents, and live Q&A calls with me go to P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Making Budget Adjustments

15:19 Emily: So where did you move to and how did you find that next housing situation?

15:24 Tina: Yeah. So for me, I like living with other people. Actually I describe myself as painfully extroverted, so the first move was to find another roommate or find a roommate, I guess. A person in my cohort I had been spending some time with and was taking a class with and felt comfortable discussing some of my relationship stuff with, I mentioned to her like, yeah, I might be moving and looking for a new roommate soon. She was also in a housing situation, in grad student housing housing, which is really expensive here. I know Adriana, you interviewed awhile ago was living in like the family housing that’s highly subsidized, but my roommate was in the regular housing that’s like $1,300 per person per month, so not nearly as subsidized. Anyways, I found the person to live with, and then I was sort of waiting for her to finish up her paperwork to get released from her housing contract. And based on the new information I had of how much it was actually costing me to live in LA, I set a new budget of $1,100 a month for rent, and we found a two bedroom, two bathroom near campus, but far enough away that it was in our price range, and most importantly, for us, it had to be near a bus stop, so it was easy to get to campus.

16:44 Emily: Yeah. A couple of points I want to follow up within that. One is yes, I had that interview with Adriana and she was living in family housing for UCLA. I have another interview that’s been recorded, but not released as of the moment that we’re doing this interview, with Dr. Travis Seifman, and he is specifically talking about grad student housing. He’s lived in like a couple of different of the UC grad student housing, different universities. And then he’s also lived in graduate student housing at some other universities, including overseas. We have an extensive discussion around this, and one of the things that we talk about is his consternation around the price difference between family housing and single but roommates housing, and why is it that there’s such a price difference there. And so anyway, for any listeners who are particularly interested in that discussion, I’ll recommend that other interview. TBD when it will actually be published. Thanks for bringing that up.

17:39 Emily: One of the things I really like about the story is that, once you had been in LA, at UCLA for a year, you were able to, well, one, probably be more realistic about the amount of money you were able to pay in rent. Your budget went from $800 up to $1,100 per month. And then also, you found a person you wanted to live with and you guys probably had more at that point familiarity with the area and were able to do a housing search a little bit better than you could have from a distance. Of course that’s the case. My message, what I want to emphasize to listeners is that it’s a really good idea to reevaluate your housing, maybe after your first year of graduate school, whenever you’re thinking about housing in that second year, because you probably know a lot more about the area that you’ve moved to in that second iteration of the housing search. So how did that new higher rent fit in with your budget? What adjustments did you make to make that happen?

18:03 Tina: Yeah, I mean, I think I actually just had room for it. I had over budgeted other items. It took us a while to figure out the car insurance, and initially I was planning for my car insurance to double and instead it only gone up $30 and even then, it went up again when I had to separate my car insurance from my ex’s, but not as much as I was anticipating, so that was helpful. I think I ended up having to put a little bit less into savings, I think that’s where most of the difference came from. A couple of things that I have over head over budgeted initially, before I knew anything out here and then also pulling a little bit out of what I was contributing to my savings.

19:15 Emily: Another thing you did really well, there is to be sort of conservative in your estimates of your spending, in that you think you’re going to spend more than maybe you actually do, so you have that wiggle room for later adjustments within your budget.

Financial Life after the Break-up

19:27 Emily: Okay, we’ve gone through the breakup process and the separation from your ex, how are things looking in your finances today?

19:35 Tina: They’re looking okay. I just made a big purchase recently. I had a car that was a lease and I recently bought out my lease, and so that took a big chunk of my money. Basically, my car to buy out was like $12,000 with taxes and fees, and if I had been buying it from a used car dealership would have been closer to like $16,000, so it seemed like a pretty good deal. Especially since I could buy it out right, I’m not paying any interest on it. And the way I did that, is I had a considerable savings, just like paying out of my savings account. And so I paid for a third of the car, my father was able to contribute a third, and then another family member was able to lend me a third. So I did still take out a loan for my car, but from a family member who is lending it to me without any interest, of course.

20:27 Emily: Yeah. So that was a big chunk out of your funding, but that’s nice to not have that monthly expense. I mean, it’s still a monthly expense because you’re repaying the loan, but a much, much smaller one.

20:36 Tina: Yeah.

20:37 Emily: That is a great reduction in the rest of your spending. That’s great. It sounds like you and your ex were really thoughtful in this process. You had seen your parents get divorced and so you were keeping in your mind, this is a possibility. You’re going to move to LA, you’re going to live together, start commingling your finances. Maybe things won’t work out, you’re not married yet, and even after that, it still could not work out. It sounds like you did things pretty intelligently and carefully through this process, and so I think that you have like a positive example here of how this can happen, but is there anything that you, looking back, wish that you had done differently?

21:14 Tina: I think most of it was pretty settled. I wish I’d been a little bit more thoughtful about how we divided up and dealt with paying the wedding deposits, because that was a little bit of a thorn in my side when we were splitting up. And arguably my ex paid significantly more in the wedding deposits than I did, but he essentially, at the end of the day was the one who asked to call the wedding off, and so I requested that he pay me back for the wedding deposits that I had paid, which amounted to about a thousand dollars, which, again on a grad student income is a pretty significant chunk of money. And the message I got was, well, let’s see how long it takes you to move out of the apartment, and how much money is spent on the apartment, and then we can make this decision.

22:11 Tina: Then even though we saved more than that by moving out of the apartment early, then there was like some thorny issues about the engagement ring. So the engagement ring had been less than $2,000 and under the law in California, if the giver breaks off the engagement, the receiver legally owns the ring. Also my ex had told me, “oh, the ring is yours, it’s a gift to keep no matter what” and basically when I brought up the issue of my lost money on the wedding deposits, was told, “well, I let you keep the engagement ring, you should be able to sell that and recoup some of this money.” Then it turned out that he had super overpaid for the engagement ring and the money I can recoup from that is very little. I wish I had been a little bit more thoughtful about that sort of spending before we like commingled and talked a little bit more about what we would do in the situation where things broke off, but at the end of the day, I decided it wasn’t worth the emotional turmoil to be like, “well, this ring doesn’t actually cover my expenses, why don’t you take it back and you sell it and do this emotional labor and just give me my thousand dollars back.”

Navigating the Emotional Aspect of the Break-up

23:25 Emily: Yeah. I do want to come back to that point in a moment about the emotions of all of this, but I guess this is just kind of a point around splitting up in general is like, once you’re married, as you were just saying, there’s, there’s state laws that govern how relationships, how marriages separate, in terms of what’s done with the property. Sometimes it has to be figured out in court ultimately, and a lot of money can be spent on lawyers, but the really tricky thing is once you, if you’re not having that legal contract of marriage in place, and you guys were moving towards that, but not quite there yet, breaking out becomes a lot more murky. It’s something that becomes very individual and hard to navigate and something that takes a lot of energy. I just wanted to ask you, how did you manage to continue moving forward in your graduate program? Or did you? Obviously, you have ultimately, but did things stall a little bit as you’re going through this enormous personal upheaval?

24:22 Tina: I think there were two major things that helped me. There definitely was a little bit of a stalling point, but most directly related to grad school was talking to my advisor and telling him, “Hey, this is what’s going on. I’ve been a little mentally checked out because I’m trying to see whether or not my engagement is going to fall apart,” and thankfully, my advisor was very supportive of that. Around that time, actually, I had to turn in a 10 to 15 page written proposal as part of my first year requirements to slowly move towards eventually advancing to candidacy. So I talked to my advisor about it and basically just requested from my committee and extension and said, “Hey, here’s, what’s going on, can I have an extra month to turn this in?” And everybody on my committee was very supportive of that. That was number one.

25:13 Tina: Then number two was also just reaching out to friends and it took me a while to feel comfortable telling some of my lab mates and other people in grad school and just other friends I had met in the city, because at the time I had only been living here for about six months, so I didn’t have any real long-standing, deep relationships with anybody yet because I just didn’t have the time to establish them. But once I shared that information, everybody was super supportive. I actually learned that one of my grad school friends went through the same thing of also had an engagement end during her first year of grad school. They were super helpful. And then my longterm friends were unbelievably helpful. One actually flew out from Canada, where he was doing his PhD to come help me move.

26:02 Emily: Very, very sweet. Very, very wonderful to have that both new and old connections supporting you through that time. Plus, for me, this part of your story, when you were talking with your advisor and committee hearkens back to when you entered graduate school. You didn’t have to conform to the standard procedures in place for applying to graduate school. You realize, “Hey, yeah, this is a requirement in the first year, but maybe they can be flexible with me, and I’m just going to ask about it because what’s the harm in asking?” I mean, your advisor’s probably noticing that you’re not totally engaged anyway. It just comes back to that point that you are doing a great job kind of advocating for yourself and making things happen for you, and people can be accommodating if you ask them in the right way.

Best Financial Advice for Other PhDs

26:45 Emily: Tina, with the end of this interview, I’m going to ask you a question that I ask of all of my interviewees, which is what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be related to the conversation that we’ve had today or could be completely something else.

27:01 Tina: I think actually it kind of ties into our last point of just like asking for help, of just reaching out to people and saying, “Hey, I don’t know what I’m doing, please help me.” I realized in the last couple months that investing has been a big hole for me, and I’ve been talking to one, actually one of my closest friends of over a decade and only recently learned that investing as a hobby of his. And then also like friends who are very good cooks. I never really learned how to cook as a kid growing up, so now I’m saving money by cooking at home a lot more. Just reach out to friends or coworkers or whatever and say, “Hey, I think you’re really great at this thing. I’ve noticed you seem to be really good with your money, or you’re really great at cooking, or you’re really great at this thing — how did you learn that? I’d really love to learn from you.

27:51 Emily: Nobody’s going to say no to a request phrase that way, absolutely. Wonderful, wonderful tip. And actually I know from Twitter that you are starting investing yourself and that you are listening to a podcast that really pushed you to do that — you want to mention that podcast and what you like about it?

28:08 Tina: Oh, sure. Yeah, you and I have been corresponding a little bit over Twitter and another podcast I had discovered that’s really helpful is called “Bad with Money” with Gaby Dunn. Part of what I really like about it is that I grew up with not knowing a whole lot about money and feeling like a little bit ashamed of that and just kind of feeling the differences in class, especially having gone to a private university for undergrad and my family had lost their house and lost our cars right before I went to undergrad. I just felt very distant and ashamed and all these bad emotions about money. Listening to Gaby’s podcast and being like,” Oh, it’s not just me, there are other people who feel very left out of the system,” made me feel a lot more comfortable talking about it.

28:57 Emily: That’s fantastic. Thank you so much for that recommendation. And Tina, thank you so much for this conversation today. I am sure that it is helping people in the audience who are maybe considering a breakup, or trying to navigate one, or trying to recover financially from having been through one recently, so I really appreciate your willingness to talk about this.

29:15 Tina: Great. Thanks so much for having me on Emily.

Outtro

43:30 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How Work Experience Outside Academia Can Bolster Your Academic and Non-Academic Career

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Gillian Hayes, the Vice Provost for Graduate Studies and Dean of the Graduate Division at UC Irvine. Throughout her career as a computer scientist, Gillian has moved back and forth between roles in academia and industry; she argues that the division between the two is more porous than is commonly perceived inside academia and should become even more so for PhDs. Gillian consulted and completed internships as a PhD student and engaged in an even broader range of side hustles as a faculty member. We discuss the real and perceived barriers to side work that PhD trainees encounter in other disciplines. We conclude with why PhD trainees should consider non-academic careers and how to prepare for them.

Links Mentioned

non academic work experience

Teaser

00:00 Gillian: They’re not linear. People take all kinds of curving paths and I would very much like to see the university and academia in general, be a sort of lifelong learning and scholarship partner to people, for moments when they’re both in and out of where we are. Academia will always be here. Go do interesting things, come back. Let’s reconnect. And let’s find ways that we can make those boundaries a little bit more porous.

Introduction

00:32 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode six and today my guest is Dr. Gillian Hayes, the Vice Provost for Graduate Studies and Dean of the Graduate Division at UC Irvine. Throughout her career as a computer scientist, Gillian has moved back and forth between roles in academia and industry. She argues that the division between the two is more porous than is commonly perceived inside academia and should become even more so for PhDs. Gillian consulted and completed internships as a PhD student and engaged in an even broader range of side work as a faculty member, and we discussed the real and perceived barriers to side work that PhD trainees encounter in other disciplines. Don’t miss a minute of this fascinating conversation recorded in February, 2020. Without further ado. Here’s my interview with Dr. Gillian Hayes.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:31 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Gillian Hayes, who is a Vice Provost and Dean at the University of California at Irvine. We’re going to be discussing side hustling and career development, both what Gillian has done in her own professional development and how she works with students on the same subject. It’s really pleasure to have you on today, Gillian. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to our audience?

01:55 Gillian: Sure. Thanks so much, Emily. I’m so glad to be able to be with you all today. I think you’re doing a wonderful service for our students. Just some quick background on me. My training is actually as a computer scientist. Both my undergraduate and PhD work was in computer science. I have a lot of background in working in industry and other places that I’m sure we’re going to talk about later. And the bulk of my research is actually focused on how do we help people who may not be included in the tech world, normally — so kids, underrepresented groups, elderly individuals — how do we help them get involved in the design process and really make responsible, ethical technologies. Here at UCI, since September, I have taken on the role of Vice Provost of Grad Education and Dean of the Graduate Division, which is a very long, convoluted way of saying that I get to be in charge of all the grad students here on campus and help them be as successful as they can be.

02:54 Emily: Yeah. So one big component of that is not only academic success, but success in their future careers. Obviously it reflects very well on your university and program if people go on to have careers success.

Career Path: Grad School to Faculty

03:06 Emily: Let’s start talking a little bit more about your own personal journey. Can you talk us through the work experience that you had prior to graduate school, if any, and then the side hustling that you did during graduate school?

03:18 Gillian: Yeah, absolutely. I should confess, I’m the child of two academics. Both have doctorates, were professors, so I understood academia in a way that I think, it’s important to contextualize the kind of privilege that comes with that. I think I always knew I wanted to go do a doctorate at some point, but beyond that, I was deeply confused when I finished undergraduate and I didn’t know what to do. And I did like all people who don’t know what to do and I went and worked for Deloitte, and sort of got the basic training of how do you be a consultant? How do you be a professional out in the world? I then worked for another company called Avanade, which was a spin-off of Accenture and Microsoft at the time, and just spent a lot of time learning the basics of being a professional before I went back to grad school. Then, while I was in grad school, I also continued to work. I’ve sort of, throughout my career, had this one foot in academia, one foot in industry kind of life. I worked for both Intel and IBM in internships. I also had a side gig driving the golf cart that serves people beer at a wonderful golf course in Georgia called Chateau Alon, which is probably my favorite job that I had in grad school. And then did some additional consulting for a company called Roundarch. So that was sort of all what I was doing while I was in grad school and before grad school, and I think they were all great experiences and can’t recommend it all enough.

Side Hustling During Grad School

04:44 Emily: Yeah. Let’s take a pause there because I think you were in not only a unique position because of your familial upbringing, but also because of your field, computer science, which is so highly employable with just a bachelor’s. Maybe the most of any academic field of any of my guests. So you got some great jobs right after undergrad, and then also continued to side hustle in graduate school. Now I’ve noticed — this is anecdotal, you can tell me if this has been in your observation as well — that computer science is the field that is maybe tied with engineering, but most likely to allow internships and encourage internships and other kinds of consulting and side work during graduate school. So there’s a very big, in my opinion, cultural difference between computer science and perhaps engineering, and then like the biological sciences, the humanities. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

05:37 Gillian: Yeah. I think that’s a great observation, Emily, and it’s actually something I didn’t even realize was unique until I became a professor because I just thought, well, of course that’s what you would do. You go off to industry. It’s very much encouraged. It’s very much a part of the culture. There are industrial research labs, which I think is a piece that helps alot. So when you talk about interning as a PhD student in computer science or information science or other related fields, you’re typically going to a company that’s going to allow you, and in fact, encourage you to publish the work that you do while you’re there. And so not only are you making lots of money, typically more money in the summer, then you’ll make throughout the entire rest of the year, working at the university, but you’re also doing it in a way that advances your career and helps you publish and helps you build a network with researchers outside of the Academy. And I do think that you’re right, that’s quite unique, although growing a little bit more in other fields, but certainly not to the extent that you see in computing.

06:35 Emily: Yeah. And I don’t mean at all to set this up, like this can only happen inside computer science and never happens elsewhere. I just think that, yeah, in other disciplines, we need to take a page out of what’s going on inside computer science and engineering. And maybe it’s not formal internships, like maybe the structure isn’t quite there yet inside academia to allow for that. Like you said, maybe there aren’t publishing opportunities outside of academia in other fields, the way there possibly is in computer science, but I just think that people in other disciplines, it helps to open your mind a little bit to what’s possible in terms of internships or, you also mentioned consulting, like, can you elaborate a little bit more about that? These kinds of things that are potentially possible, even for people in other fields, if they seek out the opportunities. It might not be presented to them in the way that it is inside computer science, but doesn’t mean it’s not there.

07:21 Gillian: Yeah, I think that’s a great point. What I typically hear from faculty who are worried about their students interning, and this is true by the way, within computer science as well. There are some faculty who don’t like their students to intern, although it’s much more rare than other disciplines. But what I typically hear is, “well, how are they going to get their work done? How are they going to finish their dissertation?” All of those kinds of things. What I have seen in my career, and I’m actually trying to collect the data right now to do a study on this at UCI, to see if we can see if my anecdotal experience holds out across more people, is that actually, not interning or interning it doesn’t slow you down or speed you at particularly much. I did three internships at anywhere from three to five months while I was in graduate school and still finished in five years and did not have a master’s going in. And that’s not to say that I’m somehow special or so fast and so wonderful. But actually what I think is happening is you give your brain a little break from the dissertation and it’s amazing how much more quickly you can actually work on it.

08:25 Gillian: When I see students, and I do have them here, who they can’t intern, they can’t go away for whatever reason, perhaps they have family obligations or other things, and they’re not going to just move to the Bay area for the summer, things like that. Those students they’re not any faster. They really aren’t. And what I see them doing is churning a little bit, and really thinking through their dissertation almost too much. So I would encourage people in any field to seek out those consulting opportunities, even if it’s just do something for a few hours a week, write copy for somebody. Do some beautiful graphic design, if you’re an artist. Do some statistics. I mean, the amazing thing is how much people out in industry need consultants to just do basic statistical analyses, which most of our students in both the behavioral and physical sciences are very skilled in doing. Give your brain that break away from the dissertation and I actually think it speeds you up.

09:25 Emily: Yeah, I actually really agree. I did not intern or anything where the long monotony of the six years I spent in graduate school was not broken up by periods of fresh, different work in any way. That is one of my semi regrets of that time. I want to throw another like possibility in here, not just internships, not just consulting, but something that may be a little bit more palatable to academics, which is a fellowship. Doing a professional fellowship is also sometimes possible and may be something that your advisor is more likely to look favorably upon than some of these other kinds of work. For example, after I finished graduate school, I did a three month science policy fellowship at the National Academies in DC. That fellowship is available to current graduate students, as well as recently graduated PhDs. That’s just another kind of thing you can consider. I had a previous interview, which I’ll link in the show notes with Vicky Johnson from Pro fellow. She runs a database where you can look for these kinds of opportunities for professional fellowships, as well as fellowships that might fund you. Go check that out if you’re looking for something, something else to do that’s going to give you this wider network, this different kinds of experience to stimulate your brain in a different way than just the research you’ve been doing.

10:37 Emily: Okay, so very exciting what you were able to do, what other students could potentially be able to do. Can you say a few more words about how these opportunities for side hustling and interning that you took in graduate school, built your career and set you up for your post PhD job or jobs?

10:54 Gillian: Absolutely. They’re really essential and are a big part of my career story. One of my mentors at Intel actually wound up being on my thesis committee in the end and has continued to be a really wonderful mentor to me throughout my time. Lots of other interns — one of the things that’s great about interning is you meet a bunch of other people who are PhD students at other universities, or sometimes undergraduate or master’s students as well, and they become a part of your professional network. Often companies really roll out the red carpet for interns over the summer. And so you’re going to these fun events and you really get to know a lot of other people. That becomes a really essential part of who you are 20 years later, and I look back now and people that I met as part of an internship that aren’t in my field, that I never would have met otherwise, are some of my good friends now and they’re also professional colleagues.

11:51 Gillian: The other thing I would say though, is it’s not just the industry or the research internships or the fellowships or the kinds of things we’ve been talking about. I sort of joked earlier that my favorite job in grad school was driving the beer cart at the golf course. And I think sometimes we can tend to look down on those kinds of jobs or feel like, well, the only reason you’re doing that is to make a little extra money because we don’t pay grad students enough. Sure. Those things are probably all true, but it’s also the case that I drove around in the most beautiful setting you can imagine and brought all of my books and journal articles with me and parked on the side and read. And again, just got a head break. Just got out of my home, got out of my lab, all of those places. Meet interesting people. You never know who you might get to know and think about in these places. So whatever this sort of side hustle is, I think it’s really good for your brain and for your mental health and for your network.

Side Hustling Post-Grad School

12:49 Emily: So in the jobs that you’ve had after your PhD, have you continued to work on the side and still develop and maintain those networks? Or have you been an academic and solely focused on that?

12:02 Gillian: I am apparently not able to focus on one thing at a time ever. I think that’s okay in academia, actually. It’s part of what makes life so interesting. But no, I’ve absolutely continued to do variety of side hustles. So one of the things is, I took a break. As soon as I got my shiny, new assistant professor job, I went and went back to Roundarch and worked as a consultant again, and just really got to…I always talk about it as cleaning my brain. I was in the slog of writing this dissertation and it’s so painful. You finally get it over the line, and back then we had to measure the margins and do all of this painful stuff, and turned it in and went and got to fly around and talk to people about building websites for a while. That felt really good.

13:53 Gillian: Then I remembered why I left consulting in the first place, because I got kind of bored with it, and got to start my assistant professor position. That cycle has been really important throughout my career. I’ve continued to do consulting on the side, in terms of both technology-related consulting and user experience, and so on. But also because of my research in the autism space, I’ve been able to consult with a lot of folks in K-12 and in special education and help shape where the state of California is going in terms of our care and support of people with autism and related conditions. That’s been valuable both in terms of feeding my research and really understanding what’s out there practically, but also in terms of feeding my own ability to exercise different parts of my brain.

14:40 Gillian: I would also say, academics, they won’t always refer to it as a side hustle — we like to be very pure — but writing books is basically the ultimate side hustle, as far as I’m concerned. We get judged on it because it’s part of the tenure and promotion process. But if you write the right book, that generates all kinds of interesting things — speaking opportunities, consulting opportunities, other things that I think can continue to be important no matter what field that you’re in.

15:11 Gillian: I took it a little further than most in terms of side hustling, which is I started out doing a little bit of consulting for a couple of founders that I knew well from a startup and wound up running the entire company. That’s probably more than most people will do, but I did spend a couple of years as a CEO. What I’ll say there is sometimes your side hustle becomes your main gig for a little while. I took some leave from the university so that I could do that. And I would say to people, if that happens, go for it. You can take a leave of absence. So often people think, “Oh, I can’t get off the grad student treadmill” or “I can’t get off the tenure treadmill” or whatever. You can take a leave of absence for a couple of years and academia will always be here. It’s obviously not for everyone, but I really value the time that I had being able to run a small company and watching them now at a distance under someone else’s leadership and continuing to excel is so pleasurable for me.

16:10 Emily: I’m really glad that you brought up there can be these blurred lines between what is your job as an academic and what is stuff you do on the side, because all of it can be related to your area of expertise and just expressed in different ways.

Commercial

16:28 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

How Side Hustles Are Viewed in Academia

17:14 Emily: Can you talk to me about structurally, how this has worked for you? You just mentioned you’ve taken official sounds like full time leaves of absence from your job, but do you have, for instance, like an 80% position or have you at some points to allow time for these side things or have you always been kind of a hundred percent at the job and just pursued these outside of…I don’t know, how does this work, time management wise and also official position wise?

17:42 Gillian: Yeah. So official position wise, it really depends as a grad student, it’s fairly easy to sort of zoom in and of things. I did, what’s called an off cycle internship one year and was away for fall semester. Just a matter of filing some paperwork with the university to allow me to do that. That allowed me to be at my internship for five months instead of just sort of the normal three of the summer, which was really, really valuable. It also allowed me a lot of access to people who get a little maxed out in the summertime because there’s so many interns around. I would definitely recommend thinking about being creative with those kinds of things.

18:19 Gillian: Many universities, even if you’re a full time, faculty member have consulting allowances. You can maybe consult X number of hours per year and the university’s not bothered by it. If you do more than that, then they’ll typically want you to take some sort of reduced time or leave of absence, things like that. I would encourage people to really find out what the rules are at their different universities. It may be highly variable. Then the final thing is, my mother always says to me, if you don’t ask, you know, what the answer is. I really tried to take that to heart, and when I was starting working at AVIAA, I was aware that I was also running a master’s program that I was quite attached to, and I didn’t want to let that go. I sort of sat down and tried to think about, okay, if I keep running the master’s program, teach this little bit that will go with that, and I keep supervising the PhD students I have, because you don’t let your PhD students drift, even if you go off to do something else, what does that kind of look like time-wise? I went to my Dean and my department chair and said, I’d like to take a reduced workload. So basically these are the things I’m going to do and not going to do anything else. What does that look like percentage wise? And I’ve talked to a lot of different people who’ve done this. Anywhere from they’re employed at the university 5% time to maybe they’re employed 50%, 80%. You sort of get to different levels and whatever you think is appropriate. My Dean and my Chair looked at that and said, “yeah, that seems about right, we’re good with that,” so I was able to take reduce time, but not a full leave away.

20:02 Gillian: I would just say to people, you never know if you don’t explore it. So think about it and investigate it because you may well be able to do these things, partially. I also was always very upfront with our board of directors and with the founders of the company that I was still going to be doing XYZ things affiliated with the university. And they were good with that. From all of their perspectives, the idea that I would maintain a connection with this wonderful place of scholarship that would potentially bring us excellent new hires and other kinds of people was great. On the surface of it, and before I made those requests, lots of people said to me, “Oh, you can’t do this or you can’t do that,” but I thought, well, maybe. Let’s just ask and find out. So I would encourage people to ask.

20:47 Emily: Yeah, I’m so glad you brought this up and I want to take kind of a grad student or postdoc, spin on that question. Because what I hear a lot from especially graduate students is “I’m not allowed to have a side job or a side income,” and either that’s because of the terms of the assistantship that they have, or the terms of the fellowship that they’ve accepted, or it’s just something cultural that they’ve absorbed, or maybe their advisor said something more explicitly, but I think there’s a range of like, what’s actually permitted, either legally or contractually. And of course, for international students, that’s a whole other discussion of what the visa allows, which is nothing except for like official OPT kind of stuff. But for citizens or residents in the US, can you just talk around this a little bit of is it worth asking, even if you think the answer is going to be no, look at your contract, or what?

21:44 Gillian: I think it’s always worth asking. And I’ll answer that in a couple of ways. One of them is, and I saw some really interesting research, I’ll try to dig it up and send you the link if I can find it. But essentially, if you ask grad students, what do they think their advisor wants of them? They’ll essentially say to get an R1 tenure track position, to have this like life of the mind, to be a mini version of their adviser. And then if you ask the advisors, what do they want of their students, broadly, in a very generic, hypothetical, meta kind of way, they’ll say the same. But if you ask the faculty, think about your last X number of students — I forget what it is, two, three, four, whatever — who’ve graduated with you. What do you think you want for them? Suddenly you start to see industry jobs, government jobs, community colleges, other kinds of two and four year opportunities. Not these sort of tenure track PhD granting institution kinds of jobs. And it’s because we’re sort of inculturated in a broad way to think, yes, we want to create more little faculty that look just like us. But if you think about specific students, you often recognize, well, actually their passion and their strengths lie elsewhere.

23:02 Gillian: It’s that disconnect that I think many of the students are feeling. They know that their advisor, in a broad sense wants this thing, but maybe it’s not for them. If they really open up that conversation, I think most faculty really do want to support them and be open to that. I think it’s always worth asking. Also, the truth is, if you’ve got one of those few faculty that just aren’t interested and aren’t going to want to support you, no matter what, for me, I would want to know that because maybe I need to find a different person to work with, or maybe they stay my primary supervisor, but I find some additional mentorship on the side that can help me get to the places I need to go and that I want to go. I think it’s always worth asking.

23:46 Gillian: The other thing I would say is you can interpret contracts in all kinds of ways, and I’m not an employment lawyer, but what I can say is even if officially our ruling, as the University of California, is that people don’t have jobs outside, we don’t own your life. If I worked at Google or I worked at Deloitte again, or I worked wherever, they don’t get to tell me that I can’t go out on a Saturday morning and be a barista, if I want to. It’s the same here. We don’t own your personal time and your free time. So if it’s not disrupting your job here as a grad student researcher or your job here as a TA, I don’t see that we have a whole lot of standing to tell you that you can’t do it.

24:30 Emily: I’m really glad to have your perspective on, because I think this is something that students…I’ll call it a limiting belief. Like it’s a limiting belief that students have. I can’t, I’m not allowed to have a side job, have a side income. And I, like you, think it’s more important to examine this spirit of that rule or that cultural norm, because really the point is you want to be making progress on your dissertation. You want to put really good energy towards that on a consistent basis. And yeah, your advisor, or you, probably don’t want to be leaving at 5:00 PM every day to go to your second job as a whatever. But there’s so many jobs that you can have now in the internet age that you can do on your own schedule. That’s flexible. It’s not going to interfere with your work. As we talked about earlier, that will give you different kinds of energy and different kinds of stimulation that you aren’t getting through your primary position. I do like to think about the spirit of this. Like, is it interfering with your work? Does are advisor even really need to know about it, if they would never find out naturally. Now for these professional development opportunities, and especially something like interning, obviously you need to involve your advisor, potentially some other people in that conversation, but for a side gig, that’s a few hours a week, maybe they don’t need to know, if it doesn’t interfere.

25:44 Gillian: And you know, you never know. It’s not just that they don’t necessarily interfere, but they can also be argumentative in ways that you could never expect. Actually here’s a great example. I went to grad school with a woman who was a quilter on the side, made absolutely beautiful quilts. And I think sometimes she sold them, but just gorgeous. It takes a lot of time to be a quilter, but it didn’t interfere with her work. In the end, she actually developed this really incredible piece of software that helps teach children geometry, using quilting as a metaphor because of this thing she was doing on the side. Now, if someone had told her stop quilting, it takes up too much time, then she never would have done what she did for her dissertation.

26:29 Emily: Yeah, it is so, so beneficial to have these other areas of your life to give you not only balance, but to help you think about your work in different ways, and just to be like a whole person. You can still be a whole person during your PhD training, while on the tenure track, it’s all encouraged.

Non-Academic Careers

26:44 Emily: So let’s pivot a little bit to talking about non-academic careers. You’ve obviously had an academic career, as well as nonacademic aspects of your career. How can students who, as we were talking about earlier are statistically unlikely to end up in a tenure track position, even if they want to keep their hat in the ring for that sort of thing, how can they simultaneously prepare for a career outside of academia?

27:10 Gillian: Yeah, that’s a great question. The first thing I’ll say is, I think we need an educated workforce and an educated society, and the idea of having loads and loads of people with PhDs that work in places that are not universities is really appealing to me. I think it’s good for the world. I just want to sort of admit to my positionality there. But what I’ll tell you is I know a lot of CEOs of both big and small companies. I know a lot of executive leaders and they come to me and they ask me, where can they find people who can quickly digest an enormous amount of information, write up interesting, analytical thoughts about that. Talk about it with other people, teach it to them, explain it to them and figure out what we do next. And I’m like, that’s someone with a PhD. They’re looking all over business for people with those skills. It’s exactly what we teach, no matter what your field. It’s absolutely the case that the market needs it.

28:10 Gillian: Now we have some work to do to translate and help people understand and help people be marketable and all of those things, but that kind of work and the kind of critical thinking skills that people develop doing a doctorate is absolutely what the highest levels of leadership in the corporate world need desperately. Obviously also in government and nonprofits and other places like that. What I would say to people is just be thinking all the time about how do I translate what I do into something that other people can understand. And I spend a lot of time with people who want to translate an academic CV into a more typical resume, just helping doing that translation work. I would encourage people to seek out people like myself, who’ve had these different kinds of careers. I’m happy for podcast listeners, you can feel free to reach out to me. I might not respond right away, but I’m happy to look at things, and just figure out how do you explain yourself out into the world? That’s the first thing I would say.

29:12 Emily: I actually want to jump in there and plug a colleague of mine, Beyond the Professoriate, Jen Polk and Maren Wood’s business. This is the kind of space that you can join and learn these types of skills, see examples of how other people have made exits from academia into other interesting careers, and have community with other people who are going through the same process. Beyond Prof is one of the places where you can do that.

29:37 Gillian: Absolutely. I direct people to Beyond Prof all the time. That’s actually a better resource than me. They will respond to you more quickly. Definitely check those out. The other thing I would say is, and I’m going to pick on you a tiny bit, Emily, is even using that phrasing of exiting the university, right? One of the things that I sort of bounce up and down on a lot around here is the language of alt-ac, and post-ac, and academic exits, and these kinds of things. I don’t want to take away from people’s feelings. If that’s a helpful way for people to express what they’re going through, then by all means, go ahead, but we don’t have that same language for undergraduates who finish an undergraduate degree. We don’t have that same language for lawyers who finish a JD or medical doctors who finish an MD or any of these other folks.

30:30 Gillian: One of the things that I think is important in culture change, and we need to do this internally at the university, for sure, but also I’d like to do it everywhere is to say careers, they’re not linear. People take all kinds of curving paths and I would very much like to see the university and academia in general be a sort of lifelong learning and scholarship partner to people for moments when they’re both in and out of where we are. Now, I recognize I’m in a place of privilege. This is a much easier thing to do in my field than in others. That is what it is. But I think we need to start with changing some of our language and some of our culture around this notion of, if you don’t get that tenure track job or get that right postdoc right after you’ve finished, that the world is ending for you. No, academia will always be here. Go do interesting things, come back, let’s reconnect, and let’s find ways that we can make those boundaries a little bit more porous.

31:28 Emily: Yeah. I really appreciate that. I totally agree with you. I’ll just leave it at that.

31:34 Emily: Sort of along those lines, what about de-stigmatizing these nonacademic careers? You’ve just mentioned language changes, but are there any other ways that people inside and outside academia cannot be looking down on non-academic careers as the consolation prize for not getting a tenure track position, which for the record is definitely not how I feel about them.

31:59 Gillian: Yeah. Well, you know, I will tell you, again, this is a case where being in computing or engineering is a bit easier. My students go off and make two to three times what I will ever make, and more if they get the right stock options, and money goes a long way for de-stigmatizing all kinds of things. That’s one thing to just kind of know, but I think that’s also true in other fields. There’s lots of ways in which you can have a very healthy, productive, happy, and financially successful career outside of the Academy, and that’s an important thing for people to recognize, and to say that you’re not selling out or failing or any of these other things, if you choose to take that kind of path.

32:43 Gillian: The other piece, I think is academics, faculty tend to the people who’ve been really successful in a very particular model of existing. We’re really good at school, the way school was built. The same is true, by the way in K-12. People who become K-12 teachers are often people who were really good at school, and so it’s very hard to reform a system that’s run by people who are really good at that system. We sort of self select for this reinforcing behavior. Some of it is us taking good, long, hard looks at ourselves. And you start to see this, I think, in the undergraduate and master’s curricular reforms that we’re starting to see, where people are recognizing, hey, maybe Sage on the Stage isn’t the best way to teach. And maybe we should be thinking about active learning. Or in the graduate curriculum for master’s students, maybe we should be thinking about modular learning. That you can do pieces of it now and another piece in a couple of years and so on, and put together a collection of experiences that make the right professional degree for you.

33:50 Gillian: I think that gives me hope that if we’re starting to make reforms in K-12, and we’re making reforms in undergrad, we’re making reforms in our professional degrees, it’s only to some degree a matter of time until we can make some reforms in the PhD world and help people to understand that there are different ways to complete a doctorate, and there are different ways to have a career afterwards. It does take activity. It does take bringing back. We have an alumni speaker series here that we bring back people who did their PhDs here, who have exciting, really cool careers, running science museums, or doing policy or running a startup. And we need to show off more of those success stories too.

34:29 Emily: Yeah, I do see, as I visit universities and speak there for the financial stuff, I’m often included in their conversations around this sort of thing. Well, Emily, you’re in entrepreneurship, how do we encourage our students to consider this path as well? And they show me what they’re already doing. It’s percolating. The idea is there. It’s popping up different places. I don’t know how much it still needs to be included actually in the standard path to doctorate rather than just some side extra thing you might engage in. That would be really great.

Best Financial Advice for PhDs

35:01 Emily: Gillian, I love the ideas you’ve presented in this interview. Thank you so much for giving it. I’m just going to conclude with a question that I ask of all of my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? Could be related to something we’ve talked about today, or it could be something entirely other,

35:19 Gillian: That is a great question, and I thought this was your hardest question, by the way, that I really had to think about. But I think the first thing I would say is get through whatever you’re going through as fast as you can. You will never recover financially from being out of the workforce for however many years it takes you to do a PhD, even if you are the fastest PhD student in the world. The faster you can go time to degree, get done. I always say the only good dissertation is a done dissertation. Get into the workforce as quickly as you can. And the same thing is true for tenure, or for becoming a full professor, for becoming whatever. Yes, these things take time, but just get through them and don’t worry about making it perfect. Each of these things in academia, it’s a pass/fail exam, so pass and move on to the next thing. That’s the first thing I would say.

36:15 Gillian: The second is make sure your summers are paid. Whether you’re a junior faculty member or a PhD student or whatever, that’s a quarter of your year. And I’m always amazed at how many people take it completely unpaid. There are a variety of ways to get it paid. Whether it’s summer teaching, writing grants, internships, consulting, any of these side hustles we’ve been talking about, but the idea that you would lose a quarter of your income at a very young age, when people are in grad school, postdoc-ing, or as assistant professors, those are your prime earning years, and you’re setting yourself up for the future. So figure out a way to get your summers paid. You work for 12 months, so you should get paid for 12 months, is my general thing.

37:00 Gillian: Then the last thing I would say is be mindful of what free labor you give away. Academia is just chock-full, and I know you’ve talked about this on your podcast before, of free labor. We review for free. We give talks for free. We write for free. And that’s okay. That’s a certain amount of the culture and we should be doing certain things voluntarily, but some things you really should start thinking about getting paid for. And you just need to think about that before you decide, am I going to give up however many hours of my time to this? Well, your time is really, really valuable, so treat it like it’s really valuable.

37:36 Emily: I think it goes back to a point you made earlier, which is just asking. If you’re being asked to do some special thing, like speaking, for example, if you were going to agree to do it for free, like you were just talking about why not just ask, Hey, what can you give me an exchange? Pay, expense reimbursement, some other thing of value to you. Just inquire and know that you’re worthwhile. This goes to imposter syndrome as well. Within academia, we tend to feel that we’re not special. Our skills are not that valuable. Everyone else has the same skills and the same knowledge. That is definitely not true, first of all, even inside academia, but definitely, definitely outside, you will be seen as a unique, special thing, as you were talking about earlier, with your PhD and the skills and knowledge that come along with it.

38:19 Gillian: Absolutely. And every time I say to people, whatever number you’re thinking in your head that you’re worth to give that talk or to consult on that project, double it, and you might be close to the number that’s actually what you’re worth.

38:32 Emily: Yeah. Great, great advice again. The worst they’re going to say is no, or maybe they’ll try to negotiate you down, but if you were going to do it for free or little anyway, hey, that’s not too bad. Gillian, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I really, really enjoyed this conversation.

38:47 Gillian: Thank you, Emily. I did as well, and I look forward to hearing many more wonderful podcasts from you in the future.

38:52 Emily: Oh, thank you so much.

Outtro

38:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

The Financial and Career Opportunities Available to National Science Foundation Graduate Research Fellows

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In this episode, Emily interviews Kelsey Wood, a National Science Foundation (NSF) Graduate Research Fellow who now teaches others how to write competitive applications for the Graduate Research Fellowship Program (GRFP). They discuss the decisions that new fellows have to make regarding when to start receiving the funding and the internship opportunities available. Kelsey also issues a warning regarding paying quarterly estimated tax and gives great insights from her course for GRFP applicants. At the end of the interview, Kelsey shares her best financial advice for current graduate students and postdocs.

Links Mentioned in This Episode:

Further Reading:

NSF GRFP finances

Teaser

00:00 Kelsey: I think that a lot of times the graduate groups or the administration will attempt to get as much free labor out of graduate students as they can, but there is actually a lot of money there to pay people, so I think a lot of times grad students need to be proactive in asking for money for things like leading workshops or teaching classes, TA-ing, et cetera.

Introduction

00:26 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode 16, and today my guest is Kelsey Wood, a graduate student at UC Davis and National Science Foundation Graduate Research Fellow. We discuss the decisions that new NSF fellows have to make regarding when to start receiving the funding and the internship opportunities available. Kelsey also issues a warning regarding paying quarterly estimated tax. Throughout the interview, she shares her insights into how to best manage your finances as a fellowship recipient. Kelsey now teaches others how to write competitive GRFP applications, and she details some excellent strategies from the online course she developed. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Kelsey Wood.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:15 Emily: I am so delighted to be joined on the podcast today by Kelsey Wood. She is currently a graduate student at UC Davis, and she is also a former NSF GRFP fellow. And she’s going to be talking to us about that program and also the advice that she gives people in her course regarding applying successfully for the application. So, Kelsey, I’m so glad to have you. Welcome! Will you please tell the audience a little bit about yourself?

01:39 Kelsey: Sure. Thanks for having me on. I am a PhD student about to graduate in integrated genetics and genomics at UC Davis and I currently am studying plant pathogen interactions. I got my bachelor’s in biology from Reed College where I studied animal behavior and then I happened to get a job in the biotechnology industry working on potato disease resistance. And I really liked my time in industry, but I found that I was frustrated that I couldn’t pursue my own independent research questions. So, I realized I needed to go to graduate school.

02:14 Kelsey: And so, I applied for the NSF GRFP during my first year. Mostly due to peer pressure from a senior grad student who was a GRFP fellow, and he actually gave a workshop on the fellowship where he basically convinced everyone to apply. And I’m glad I did because I actually got it. And then after I received the fellowship, I decided take over that workshop and also encourage other people to apply and give them tips on how they can actually get it. So, I’ve offered a variation of that workshop for the last five years, and I did an online version last year. I held some free webinars that were attended by over 200 people all across the U.S., and then I also offered an intensive workshop with additional webinars, one-on-one and personalized editing services. Participants said that was really helpful in preparing their applications. And actually, out of the 10 people who submitted in the workshop, three of them got it this year and one honorable mention. So, I’m really proud of them and happy that I kind of helped people to get it.

Kelsey’s NSF GFRP Workshop Updates

03:18 Emily: That’s incredible. Oh my gosh. I would have loved to participate in something like that when I was early on in graduate school. Tell people right up front where can they go to find more information about that course?

03:27 Kelsey: Right now, the best place to probably get updates on what I’m going to be offering it–and I’ll also be posting a lot of the materials–is my Twitter. It’s @klsywd (Kelsey Wood), but without any vowels. So, K L S Y W D.

03:42 Emily: So, it sounds like you were a fellow between your second and fourth years of graduate school. Is that right?

03:49 Kelsey: Let’s see. I started the fellowship–it would have been in June, 2014–the summer before my second year. Yeah.

Major Decision Points for NSF GRFP Recipients

03:58 Emily: Okay. And so, what are the decisions? Okay, so let’s say we’re speaking to one of the people who has just found out that they received the GRF. Amazing, congratulations! But they’re faced with a few decisions either right away or during the course of their tenure. So, can you talk through–kind of give them a little preview, what are those decisions that they need to make, and what are some things they should consider as they’re making them?

When To Start Receiving the Stipend

04:23 Kelsey: Sure. So, I mean the first one is when to start receiving the fellowship stipend. So, you’re technically a fellow for five years, but you’re only receiving the stipend for three of those years and then the other two years you’re on tenure–you’re either on tenure or on reserve. Anyways, you only get paid for three years and then the other two years you just you have additional benefits that you can receive from the fellowship, but you’re not paid any longer. And you can start that at any time. What you really want to consider is potentially what other funding sources you might be encountering during graduate school. For example, there are a number of fellowships that you can get after you’ve passed your qualifying exams, which usually happen second or third year. So, if you think you’re going to be applying and getting those fellowships, it can be really good just to start the GRFP right away.

Consider Timing (and Adequate Payment) for TAships

05:14 Kelsey: And then the other fellowship will take over once your GRFP funding runs out. Some really lucky people got multiple fellowships, actually, right at the beginning. Somebody I knew got the GRFP and the Ford fellowship this year, actually. So, they need to decide which ones, what order to get those because you can’t get them both at the same time. But that’s a pretty lucky problem to have. I would say that. And then the other thing is, some people have to do TAships in order to satisfy a degree requirement. And you can’t do a 50% TAship while you’re doing the GRFP. That’s not allowed. So, you might want to maybe get that out of the way first so you can pass your qualifying exams and have that TA under the thing. What I did is I actually TA-ed for free. But in retrospect, I don’t know if I would make that same decision again because it was a lot of work, and I don’t know. I’ve kind of changed my feelings on just doing things like volunteering and for free because there actually is–I think that a lot of times the graduate groups or the administration will attempt to get as much free labor out of graduate students as they can. But there is actually a lot of money there to pay people. So, I think a lot of times grad students need to be proactive in asking for money for things like leading workshops or teaching classes, TA-ing, et cetera. So, that’s what I found. I started asking for stipends for my workshop and I got them. I started asking for stipends for TA-ing grad level classes. They weren’t offering them before, and I started to get them. So, I think in retrospect I maybe would have tried to get paid for a TAship to meet my degree requirements and then taking the GRFP.

07:09 Emily: It is kind of strange that universities have different policies around who gets paid for doing what exactly, because TA-ing–sort of similar to your situation, but–in the department that I was in, in graduate school, we had what they called, a graduation requirement to TA for two semesters, and it was not tied to our stipend. So, we were all being paid in some manner, either research assistantship or on fellowship or something, but we just had to do this TA work on top of it during a couple of semesters. So, that was the way they structured it. It wasn’t tied to our income. But in other places, of course there are some people who are TAs and that’s their stipend and that’s their funding and that’s the source of it. But then there is even another option that I’ve heard of which is essentially sort of being hired as an adjunct, as a graduate student. So, it doesn’t have to do with your base stipend. That could still come from a fellowship or research assistantship or whatever else. But if you take on an additional class as a TA or even as the lead instructor, you could be paid like an adjunct would be paid. So, different places do things different ways.

Check with Your Advisor About Research Grant Cycles

08:11 Emily: But I think to your original point about deciding, “Okay, when do you want to be paid for these three years when you’re in those three years of having the GRF?” You said that you should think about, “Are you going to be applying for different kinds of fellowships post-quals or post-prelims? Are you going to need this TA thing?” You could potentially get it out of the way first and have your funding come from there, initially. I would also want to throw in there, maybe ask your advisor about research grants, and are they at the end of a grant cycle, the beginning of a grant cycle? Because that could also play into it. You don’t want to take the fellowship when your PI has tons of money and then, you know, three years later, maybe there is no funding there for you. So, that’s a potential risk too. So, it’s just kind of being open about what are all these financial factors within your department, within your group, that could play into this.

09:03 Kelsey: Yeah. And actually, that’s a really good point. Because for a lot of people, getting the GRFP actually influences what lab they can join because you’re coming in with your own funding. So, you might be able to join a lab that you wouldn’t have been able to join otherwise. And in that case, you’d probably want to start using your funding right away. And then, you know, you can essentially help your PI get other grants that will take over once the funding runs out. So, that’s a big benefit.

Are You Listed as a Dependent on Your Parents’ Tax Return?

09:33 Emily: I wanted to add one more point. It’s tax season right now. So, I’m thinking a lot about taxes. And so, this weird thing happens with fellowship funding when you’re under the age of 24. I don’t know how old you were when you first started, were you under 24?

09:48 Kelsey: No, I don’t think so.

09:49 Emily: Okay. Yeah. Because you had had at least one year of work experience. But if you’re starting when you’re 22 or 23, anytime that you have fellowship income in a year when you’re age 23 or younger, some weird stuff can happen with your tax return. Namely, your parents might be able to have more of a claim on you as a potential dependent on their tax return, which is not good for you if it turns out that way. And secondly, you might be hit with this weird high tax called the “Kiddie Tax.”

10:16 Emily: And so, I don’t want to go into all that right now, but if you go to my website, pfforphds.com/tax, there are articles there about both of these issues. But my point is just when you have fellowship income and you’re under the age of 24, sometimes it can have these weird effects of making you pay a lot more in tax than you would normally if you were over the age of 24. So, to me that’s just another factor that I want to throw in there of, “Hey, if you’re under the age of 24, maybe consider delaying a year until you actually turn 24, and then take the fellowship if your alternative is having a research assistantship instead, which is W2 income, which is treated somewhat differently tax-wise. So, more details about that if you want to talk with me about it or read about it more, but I’ll just throw that in there for those of you on the younger side.

25% TAships Possible During GRFP

11:00 Kelsey: That’s a really good point. Oh, and I actually thought of one more thing regarding TAships, which I think a lot of people don’t know–or I didn’t realize at first–is that it usually is possible to get a 25% TAship while getting the GRFP. So, that might be an option if that will satisfy your degree requirement. And the other benefit is that you actually get paid on top of the GRFP additional money for the 25% TAship, and that’s allowed within the GRFP rules. So, it’s just something to consider. I did that for one quarter, and it was really nice.

Financial and Career Opportunities for GRFP Recipients

11:34 Emily: Yeah, I love hearing all of these different ideas. Okay. So again, speaking with a new fellowship recipient, what are some of the financial and career opportunities that come along with receiving the fellowship?

11:46 Kelsey: Well, probably the biggest one is just the fact that the stipend is a lot higher than most standard stipends offered for grad students. And so, that makes a really big difference to be able to afford cost of living, which has really gone up in a lot of places, especially in California. I’m sure other places as well. And then another benefit for your career is that winning one fellowship usually leads to winning additional fellowships and awards. And I think one reason for this is that the reviewers look at your CV and they’re like impressed that you have the GRFP so they are more likely to give you these other awards. And then the other reason is that I think that just the practice of writing the fellowship in grants, you become better and better at it. And so you’re able to write more convincing applications.

12:35 Kelsey: So, for me personally, after I got the GRFP, I won research funds from UC Davis. I got like three or four travel awards for conferences. I got the USDA predoctoral fellowship. And then I also applied for a Dean’s award for mentorship and got that. And I’m pretty sure the GRFP helped me a lot in that. And also writing these and teaching classes on fellowship writing probably helped me also become a lot more convincing. So, that’s a huge benefit for your career.

Get the Snowball Rolling, Start Early

13:05 Emily: I’ll actually add in there that I think it makes a ton of sense, like what you’re doing with your course, or the students in your course, it makes a ton of sense to focus and put so much effort into these really early funding applications like before you enter graduate school in your first, maybe second year of graduate school. You don’t have to say, “Okay, this is going to be my bar for every application I’ll ever do.” But as you said, if you can get that snowball rolling of receiving awards right away in the start, it does make the rest of it easier and is very impressive. It’s a wonderful fellowship to win. So, I’ll just say, go take Kelsey’s course. Or somebody else’s. Just get these resources and make sure that you are putting as much effort as you possibly can into these early applications. And like you said, the skill of writing the application itself, that is something that carries over into the future. So, yeah, when you have your time before you’re deep into your research and you’re still doing your classes or whatever, make time for this. Make it almost like a course in your schedule in that semester that you’re applying. Because it really is worthwhile to put in the effort.

14:08 Kelsey: Yeah. And a lot of people don’t want to apply, for example, because they just don’t think they’re going to get it, for various reasons. And I encourage them just to do it anyways as an exercise. And usually by the end of it, I always ask my students during the course evaluation if they thought that the class was worth it, even if they don’t get the fellowship. And like 95% of them say yes, just because it’s the skill, it’s writing about your research. A lot of times if you’re actually writing about your real research, you can use that GRFP application in other grants or your qualifying exams, which is really useful. So yeah, definitely a good skill to get and to get early. And then if you get it, like you said, it’s just a snowball effect.

Internship and International Travel Opportunities

14:54 Kelsey: I was going to mention just the internship and the international travel opportunities that GRFP fellows are able to apply for. So, I didn’t actually apply to either of these, but I have known people who have done the Graduate Research Opportunities Worldwide, the GROW program, and that just allows you to do like three to six months research abroad. You identify a host in another country and then you apply for it. And I heard it has around like a 50% acceptance rate, and they fully fund your travel and living expenses abroad. So, it’s just a nice way to kind of get some international experience, maybe learn a new technique, or use some instrumentation that’s not available at your home lab. And it’s just another fellowship you can add to your CV.

15:49 Emily: I’m also thinking that that’s just an incredible thing to be able to talk about in future job interviews, or whatever. Just having a different kind of experience that broke up graduate school a little bit. Expanding your network, you know, seeing things from another perspective. It’s in the name, right? It’s a real growth opportunity.

Even Without the GRFP, Talk to Your PI About Collaborations

16:08 Kelsey: And I mean, something to consider too is even if you don’t have the GRFP, if your PI does have enough funding, this is something you could probably set up on your own basically doing research in a collaborator’s lab internationally or in the U.S. So, I think it’s something to consider just to diversify the experience that you get and you can talk to your PI about it and it might be something they go for.

16:34 Emily: Yeah. I know actually one of my labmates while I was in graduate school did the Whitaker Fellowship. I don’t know how subject matter-specific that is, but he was able to spend nine months in East Asia. And yeah, I think it was a great experience.

16:48 Kelsey: Yeah. The NSF has another one too that I think is open to all, not just GRFP fellows, that’s just a travel abroad or research abroad fellowship. There are other ones out there too. So, it’s definitely something to look out for and apply for.

17:03 Emily: Okay. So, that was the GROW fellowship, but there’s another internship program, right?

17:07 Kelsey: Yeah. So, there’s the GRIP program. So, it’s the Graduate Research Internship Program, and that one you do research at a federal agency. I don’t know all the ones, but I know like you can do research in the Smithsonian for example, any of the agencies, basically the governmental agencies.

17:28 Emily: That also sounds like an incredible career opportunity.

17:32 Kelsey: Especially if you want to go into government research. You know, I think that nowadays more and more graduate students are realizing that the academic path of being a professor–there are so few opportunities for that and so many graduate students trying to get those, that a lot of people are considering alternative career paths like industry or government jobs. I had a lot of people who took my class who really wanted their end goal to be to work for a governmental agency and do research in that respect. And actually the NSF really encourages that for GRP applicants. So, I tell people, if that’s their career goal, to write about that in their application.

Timing of Internship Programs During Fellowship

18:16 Emily: Just to add on to that, I think having outside work experience before you actually finish your PhD is incredible for finding whatever your next job is. Even if you decide to stay within academia. Again, it gives you multiple perspectives, broader network. But a question I have about the internship programs, is that something that you have to do during your funded years or is that something you can still do on the remaining two years?

18:39 Kelsey: Yeah, that’s a good question. So, both the international program–the GROW program–and the internship program can be done while you’re on reserve. So, while you’re not receiving the stipend. So, it has to be done within the five-year period of when you first start the fellowship. But yeah, that’s really one of the benefits. And I think the GROW is really something you’d probably want to do towards the end of your graduate career–probably both programs–because one, it’s additional funding? So, maybe your GRFP funding has run out and now you can get some more funding for your travel and living expenses.

Design a Custom Internship

19:16 Kelsey: And then the other thing is that you really are probably better able to identify a lab or a governmental agency that would be a right fit for your research at that point. And actually something else regarding internships is, you know, there was a program at UC Davis that’s like the biotechnology program. It’s like a degree, an “emphasis,” and they require that you do an internship as part of the emphasis. But one thing I realized is, even if you’re not in a program like that or even if you’re not a GRFP fellow, you can a lot of times arrange an internship in industry towards the end of your graduate career. Potentially, the company will fund you to do that, too. And it can be a really good chance to explore these career opportunities.

20:07 Kelsey: A lot of times, if you end up doing a good job, the company will be really excited to hire you and it kind of lets you trial industry or trial a company and maybe contribute something else to your research, too. So, I just have realized that a lot of times you can kind of design your own programs. Obviously, you want your advisor to be on board with this, but a lot of times, especially if you can get funding from the company, then they’re going to be very happy about that and they also want to see you grow in your career. So, I think that’s something that people should consider. Even if you’re not a fellow or even if you don’t have an official program, you can kind of craft your own internships during graduate school.

20:51 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. I think it’s one of the most powerful things you can do for your career, prior to finishing your PhD, while you know you have something to go back to after the summer ends, or whatever. I actually did a science policy fellowship that was three months, the Christine Mirzayan policy fellowship. It’s at the National Academies. And I did it after I finished my PhD. I applied basically around the same time that I was defending, but it’s open to current graduate students as well. In retrospect, sort of like you, I wish I had done it while I was still in my program and I think it would have informed some of the decisions that I made as I was finishing up. So, internships, great for everyone. I know not everyone thinks that internships are for them. I’m from an engineering field, so it’s sort of more normal to think about doing an internship. And of course in computer science or similar fields like that. But I think it’s expanding and it should expand more to other disciplines where it hasn’t been a traditional part of the PhD path.

Commercial

21:50 Emily: Hey social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15-minute call with me at pfforphds.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time. I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now, back to our interview.

Financial Advice for Fellowship Recipients

22:36 Emily: So, let’s broaden this line of questioning a little bit. Not just for people who have just received the NSF GRFP, but people who have received it in previous years who are still receiving that higher stipend. And maybe other people who’ve received outside fellowships that also have some stipend augmentation based on that. What’s your financial advice for people who have received one of these lucrative outside fellowships?

File Estimated Quarterly Taxes (NOT Yearly)

23:00 Kelsey: Yeah, so I think the biggest pieces of advice I have are regarding taxes and savings. And so, the thing you should do immediately is start to file your taxes quarterly instead of yearly. And you can estimate how much taxes you’re going to have to pay quarterly so you can start to save up. My personal sob story is that I did not do this the first year and I ended up filing my taxes and I owed about $5,000, which I didn’t have saved up. So, I ended up having to do a payment plan with the IRS which charges interest, actually quite a bit of interest. So, I ended up having to pay way more in taxes than I would have if I had just started filing quarterly. So, do that right away. I know taxes are not fun, but it’s actually not too hard to calculate if you’re only getting the stipend income, and that’s way better than having to owe it.

23:56 Emily: Actually, let me pause there because this is one of my big areas, right? It’s tax for fellowship recipients. So, was that $5,000 just the IRS or was that split between California and federal?

24:08 Kelsey: Oh, yeah, it was California and federal, split.

24:10 Emily: Okay. That’s within the more reasonable realm. Okay. Yeah, definitely. I mean I’ve actually had, I think, two other people interviewed on the podcast who have also set up payment plans with the IRS based on this exact same situation. So, this is not at all uncommon, and it’s one of my big areas of focus is to get this information in front of new fellowship recipients. No longer is income tax–this is the case at almost all universities–no longer is income tax going to be automatically taken out of your paychecks. It’s something you now have to take responsibility for, like you were just saying.

Personal Finance for PhDs Tax Center

24:43 Emily: So, most likely you are going to be required to pay quarterly estimated tax. And I have a ton of materials about this. Again, if you go to pfforphds.com/tax there’s an article there. And in particular, I have actually a workshop for people in just this exact situation. If you go to pfforphds.com/qetax for quarterly estimated tax, it will forward you to my most recent workshop. And probably similar to yours, Kelsey, I have prerecorded videos for that, and I also do live Q&A calls to help people with questions as they come up through tax season. So, just because of when we’re recording this though, I want to add in that part of the response to the coronavirus crisis actually has been to delay the first, like the Q1 payment for 2020. So, just like with your annual tax return, right now, this year in 2020, it’s no longer April 15th, but rather it’s July 15th.

25:34 Emily: So, for those fellows out there, you have a little bit extra time to figure out what’s going on in 2020 regarding your quarterly estimated tax and making those payments. So, the first payment as of this recording is actually due [July] 15th, which is the quarter two payment. But yeah, totally a common story, like you were just saying, Kelsey, is just to not realize the change that had gone on with your income tax and catching up with it when you actually file your annual return and realizing, “Gosh, now I have all this money that I owe to the IRS.” So, how did that payment plan go for you? Like was the increase in stipend more manageable, or what were your tips around saving I guess?

Start Saving Immediately

26:11 Kelsey: Yeah, so I think I’m still paying off some of my taxes monthly for that. So, anyway, just do it ahead of time and you won’t have to worry about it. And then in terms of saving, the other thing is that, because the GRFP stipend is a lot higher than the normal grad student stipend, you can kind of get used to a certain style of living. Like you’re able to go out to eat more or buy more expensive groceries. And then as soon as the stipend stops, it can be kind of a shock. So, what I’d advise doing is actually just start saving almost immediately. And I use automatic monthly withdrawals to a mutual fund. And the benefit there is I don’t see the money. Like it’s just automatic.

27:02 Kelsey: The savings are out of sight, out of mind. And then when I actually really need it I can go and be like, “Okay, here’s how much I have.” And I’ve done that a few times. I used that to fund a vacation to Europe. And so I advise just like setting something up right away and make sure you can’t see the money. Save up for when the GRFP ends, and also just because you have all this extra money that you wouldn’t be getting otherwise, so you might as well save part of it and not just spend it all.

27:33 Emily: Yeah, I definitely echo what you’re saying. And I think especially where you’re living, it’s a high cost of living area. It’s probably already challenging to live just on that GRFP stipend and it’s certainly less than we’d be making if you were having a regular job. But, think about your peers who are somehow probably managing to survive, hopefully without debt, on that lower stipend level and see if you can maybe keep your fixed expenses, like your housing, your transportation, at that lower level, so that if your income does drop after the fellowship ends, you don’t have to move or you don’t have to sell your car. Or you can adjust the groceries and adjust the restaurant spending. And it’s much easier and more palatable than having to go through those more major upheavals. So, I totally agree with what you’re saying.

Stipend Negotiations and Bonuses for Fellowship Recipients

28:19 Emily: So, something I know that some fellowship recipients do–and it sounds like maybe you didn’t or maybe it wasn’t possible for you–is that once they know that they’re receiving the fellowship, they actually negotiate to have their stipend stay at that fellowship level. Even after it ends, instead of going back down to the baseline level. Or, alternatively, sometimes programs give out one-time bonuses to fellowship winners. Have you heard about that or have any experience in that area?

28:47 Kelsey: It’s something I thought about asking my PI, because after the fellowship ended, I was struggling a little bit, financially. I ended up doing the 25% TAship to recover that income. But I do think that, I mean it’s really going to depend on your PI and their sources of funding, but it is something that is possible, potentially.

29:15 Emily: Yeah. I think it’s kind of a “no harm in asking” situation. And actually, if you happen to receive this fellowship when you’re not yet committed to a program, so prior to starting your first year of graduate school, that is something I would take to every program that you’re heavily, heavily considering, saying, “Okay, I got this fellowship. Can you augment, can you extend the guarantee?” Like what more negotiation room is there now that you’re bringing in all this money for them, right?

29:46 Kelsey: I mean, exactly. You’re bringing in just about a hundred thousand in your stipend dollars alone, not to mention tuition and fees. So, it is pretty lucrative. It’s lucrative for a program and a lab to want to accept you because you’re coming in with all this money and you just asking like, “Oh hey, can I get an extra $5,000 a year?” When you’re bringing in $100,000, it’s really still a pretty good deal for them. So, I definitely encourage people to do it. I’d love to hear if anyone is successful at this.

Details on Kelsey’s NSF GRFP Course

30:17 Emily: Yeah, I always want to hear negotiation stories. Absolutely. Email or tweet me those. So, let’s hear more about your course and the content that you create there. You said the best place to find out more about that is your Twitter, could you repeat your handle?

30:34 Kelsey: Sure. It’s @ K L S Y W D (@klsywd). So, it’s my name without any vowels. It’s pronounced Kelsey Wood.

30:41 Emily: So, tell us a little bit more about the structure of the course. I know you’ve mentioned this a little bit upfront, but last year for example, you ran it between what month and what month and you know, what goes on in that time period?

30:53 Kelsey: Yeah, so one of my biggest pieces of advice for the GRFP is to start it early. So, it’s due in like October now. And if you’re on the quarter system, like UC Davis, classes start at the end of September. So, it’s basically due during the first month of classes and it’s also your first month of grad school. So, you’re either just starting in a lab or doing rotations, and that month is just crazy. So, if you don’t start the fellowship early, it’s going to be really hard to do it all and do it well. So, my course actually starts in August, so then you have kind of a full month to start to think about stuff, outline it.

31:35 Kelsey: And then you have September to really refine it before classes start. And then we do all the final drafting and editing in October. So yeah, my course is a three-month thing. And that’s one of the benefits of doing it online. I wasn’t able to start in August at UC Davis because not everyone had come to Davis yet because it was still summer. So, doing it online, I was able to get people just at least starting to think about it and getting ideas rolling. And so, what I do is I had four different webinars on different topics. So, I covered the two NSF criteria, which are intellectual merit and broader impacts. Basically like a full 45-minute webinar on both of those topics. And I think that’s really important because especially the broader impacts one is really confusing to a lot of people.

Focus on Broader Impacts, Know Your Audience

32:27 Kelsey: It’s something that you pretty much probably have never heard of until the NSF fellowship. And it’s a really important part of that fellowship, too. So, I really emphasize the importance of that. And also, it’s really important that you get broader impacts experience before you apply. And if you’re starting the application early or even people who are listening to this, thinking about applying for next year, should basically right now find some activity that you can do that you can write about in your broader impacts section. So, volunteering, outreach, teaching, et cetera. Because if you don’t have any experience, you’re not going to get it. And then I also do a webinar on writing tips. The biggest one that I’ve learned in all my years of writing is probably just like really knowing your audience and writing for them.

33:21 Kelsey: So, you really want to just imagine who’s reading it and who they want to fund, and you really want to just be that person that they want to fund. I help people do that in their essays. Something else that’s really interesting, and it actually might be a regional difference, is in the way that you want to sell yourself in these essays. So, a lot of people are really understated or humble, and I’m like, “No, you have got to really come off like a rock star and show off all the awesome things that you’ve done.” And apparently, somebody told me that that’s actually frowned upon in the UK or in Europe to do that in your grants.

34:10 Kelsey: But in the U.S., at least, it seems to be more popular or more of a winning technique. And so, the other part of the course is that I read people’s essays and give them a ton of tips and just help them write it and rewrite it to just have a better chance of getting the fellowship. And I also set up peer editing groups, too. And I do think that that’s something you want to do, if you take a class or not. Just find somebody who, especially who’s experienced with the NSF, and have them read your proposal and give you feedback. So, for example, when I applied, I was really lucky to have a former NSF reviewer read my application and give me feedback. And he pretty much destroyed my initial draft. It was red everywhere and he’s like, “Get to the point. Be more concise. This is too vague.” And so, I kind of have internalized his feedback and I use that now when I’m editing people’s essays.

35:13 Emily: Yeah, that sounds incredible. Thanks so much for telling us about the course. And were there any other tips you wanted to add in? I know you just gave several already, but any others?

35:23 Kelsey: I guess the last one would also just be to read a lot of example essays, too, for inspiration. And there are a lot out there. I have my own personal collection. I actually have quite a few in my personal collection that I share with people in the course. And then the ones that are okay to share publicly, I’ll probably be posting on my Twitter or on my website once I get that up.

Best Financial Advice for Early-Career PhDs

35:46 Emily: Yeah, that sounds great. Well, Kelsey, thank you so much for joining me for the interview today. And final question that I ask of all my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

35:59 Kelsey: Well, I think the number one is to apply for fellowships and you know, cast a wide net and apply for anything that you’re eligible for, pretty much. I think it’s totally worth it. I have a quote that’s from that previous grad student who helped with the NSF workshop, which is, “You win 0% of the fellowships you don’t apply for.” So, I think it’s worth it. You can do it. And I guess the other thing is that I think it is important to consider the cost of living and the stipend amount when you are choosing a graduate school. I don’t know. This wasn’t really made apparent to me. And you know, you’re just like, “Oh no, you just choose the best school or the best lab.” But there is kind of a range in stipends across the U.S. and cost of living. So, I think it’s something to really consider because your finances are a part of your happiness in grad school. So, apply for fellowships, and consider that.

36:58 Emily: Totally, totally concur. Absolutely. Well, Kelsey, thank you so much for joining me today and telling us more about these decisions that come up for GRFP recipients and your own experience and about this fabulous course. Thank you.

37:10 Kelsey: Yeah. Thank you.

Outtro

37:12 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How a Book Inspired This PhD’s Financial Turnaround

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Amanda, a tenure-track professor at a small college in the midwest. At the start graduate school, Amanda was disengaged from her finances and considered grad school to be a financial continuation of undergrad. She had resigned herself to being a “poor graduate student” until she read Ramit Sethi’s book, I Will Teach You to Be Rich. Slowly, the financial messages in that book replaced the limiting beliefs she had absorbed from academia. Amanda took small steps to improve her finances, starting with her bank accounts and opening a Roth IRA, and over time her strides with her finances became bigger and bigger. At the end of the episode, Amanda summarizes the financial success she is now experiences and connects it to the hard and slow work she did on her finances during grad school and her postdoc.

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Links Mentioned

Teaser

00:00 Amanda: I was initially a little bit resistant and I had the, “Oh, I’m a poor grad student” identity, I definitely did. I thought of myself as a poor graduate student and thought, well, all grad students are poor, that’s what it’s supposed to be, and I hadn’t challenged that at all at that point.

Introduction

00:19 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode 15. And today, my guest is Dr. Amanda, a tenure track professor at a small college in the Midwest. When she started graduate school, Amanda was disengaged from her finances. She had resigned herself to being a poor graduate student, until she encountered Ramit Sethi’s book, I Will Teach You to Be Rich. Slowly, the financial messages in that book replaced the limiting beliefs she had absorbed from academia. Amanda took small steps to improve her finances starting with her bank accounts and over time, her strides with her finances became bigger and bigger. At the end of the episode, we get a glimpse at how the hard and slow work she did on her finances during grad school and her postdoc is now paying off in spades. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Amanda.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:16 Emily: I’m so glad to have Dr. Amanda joining me on the podcast again today. She was first on in season one, episode 11 talking about geographic arbitrage, and her career transition from her postdoc into her academic job. And anyway, if you didn’t listen to that episode, and you have time right now, go back and listen to it. But today we’re going to pick up and talk about something that she briefly mentioned in that first interview that I thought was fascinating enough that I wanted a whole interview devoted to it, which is her financial turnaround story. We would definitely say that Dr. Amanda is financially successful today, but she’s not always identify that way, so we’re gonna explore that story in a lot more depth. Amanda, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast and being willing to share this aspect of your story.

02:01 Amanda: Thanks for having me.

02:02 Emily: So would you please tell us a little bit more about yourself, maybe for those of you who didn’t listen to the first episode?

02:08 Amanda: Sure. I am an assistant professor in a college of education. And I work primarily with doctoral level students. I teach courses on research, writing, qualitative methods. And then I also teach a course on information and information literacy and innovation. My background is in digital media and learning, and specifically video games and learning. A lot of my research has been around the digital games industry, and then how people learn from playing video games, both games designed to be educational, but also commercial games and game communities.

Life Before the Financial Turnaround

02:45 Emily: Great. And tell us briefly about where you went to graduate school where you did your postdoc and about your family, how that formed along the way.

02:53 Amanda: Sure. I guess the first thing is, after I graduated from college, I moved out to the San Francisco Bay area for a short time, and worked as an editor in the games industry. And that’s how I developed an interest in video games and doing work on games. But I was always a school person and I had intended to go back to school to attend graduate school. And so I decided at that time that I wanted to do something with games. When I was looking for graduate programs, really my criteria was I want to work with people who are doing interesting things with video games. I felt like there was a lot of emphasis on games research, on games and obesity, games and violence, really negative things. And I thought, you know, there are a lot of great things happening in this industry. And I felt like there was a lot of potential for games to be used for a more positive impact. And so my search for graduate programs was really just who’s doing stuff around games in their potential.

Amanda: I found a group of people at the University of Wisconsin, Madison called the games learning society group, and they were a group of scholars doing really fascinating work from games and learning perspective. These were people looking at games like Civilization and World of Warcraft and how are students learning about history from a systemic point of view from Civilization, and how are high school boys, who are really disengaged with school, acquiring literacy skills and critical thinking skills and math skills from playing World of Warcraft. That was graduate school. And then following, that I did a postdoc at USC, the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, where I worked on a project where we were looking at using a game to teach first generation, low-income students about the process of applying for college.

04:43 Emily: Wow, that is so fascinating. And I think along the way you met your husband, is that right?

04:48 Amanda: I did. So I met my husband Dennis in graduate school. His advisor was actually married to my advisor.

04:55 Emily: Oh, wow. Incestuous relationship.

04:58 Amanda: Yeah, and I was I think resistant to dating him for a little while because of that, but he just turned out to be too awesome of a person, and so we started dating in grad school. Then we ended up getting married during the postdoc, and he went out to Los Angeles with me.

05:14 Emily: Was he doing a postdoc during that time as well? Or did he have a different type of job?

05:16 Amanda: He was working for the University. I’m blanking on his job title. But he was working with the USC games group, teaching courses, and then also helping manage their tech program. So he was working more with students who are learning to be game developers. And then I was in the College of Education, doing work – it was a large grant with the US Department of Education is what I was working on.

05:38 Emily: Okay, yeah. And going back to that first interview, the transition out of your postdoc, deciding where to apply for academic jobs, all that we covered in the previous interview. So if people are interested in your subsequent career path, they can go back and listen to that. But today we’re going to be talking about your financial journey during that whole time. Can you start with kind of the before, when you weren’t feeling so financially successful? What was your financial life like at that time and what were your financial attitudes?

06:11 Amanda: I think it wasn’t even that I wasn’t feeling financially successful. I wasn’t financially engaged. I had this narrative in my head, you know what, I’m good at school, as long as I do well in school, and I work hard, I will be successful and that is something that I worry about when I’m done with school. Later on, when I’m an adult, even though of course, if you get a PhD you end up spending a good amount of time in school as an adult. But I had this attitude that money was something that I would worry about later.

06:40 Emily: I’m curious how that actually plays in because you had work experience prior to starting your PhD. Is that the same attitude you had at that time? Or did it actually switch when you entered graduate school?

06:51 Amanda: Yeah, so I was working. I did work full time as an editor after my undergrad, and so I started paying off my student loans. I didn’t have a huge number of student loans, but I had taken out some loans, particularly I took two classes abroad when I was an undergrad, and so I had borrowed some money beyond scholarships for that. So I started making the payments, and I just sent in whatever the minimum expected payment amount was, and wasn’t really thinking about it. I mean, I did pretty well in that I was an English major, who at least managed to pay my rent and make a living in San Francisco. And this was right around the time of the beginning of the financial crisis, too, so there was a lot of anxiety and I knew a lot of people who are laid off at that time. I kind of felt like, “Oh, well, I have a job and I’m paying the rent and it’s San Francisco, so I must be doing just fine or even really great.” Things like investing for the long term or bigger goals weren’t really on my radar. I was just sort of paying the rent and paying the student loans.

07:57 Emily: Yeah, well, given the the time and the place that you were in I actually think you probably were doing very well. But in graduate school, you had that same attitude of just kind of going along and school is your primary focus. Is that right?

08:10 Amanda: Yeah. I hadn’t really had a good understanding of how graduate school was different from undergraduate, and so I borrowed money my first year of grad school. I took out whatever loans were offered as a part of the FAFSA, even though I had a project assistantship that year. And it wasn’t until I was kind of well into that first year that I understood, “Oh, you can work as a project assistant or research assistant, a teaching assistant and throughout grad school, I had each of those roles. And that can be enough to live on.” It’s not an exciting lifestyle, but I hadn’t realized at first that I didn’t need to be taking out those loans. So I took them out, and then I just didn’t do anything mindful with them. I probably did a little bit of travel, I ate out probably more than I needed to, and just that money sort of trickled through. I didn’t blow through it right away or anything like that, or need to take out additional loans, but I just didn’t understand the ways that you could avoid taking on additional debt in grad school. I sort of treated it like undergrad, just not knowing how that system worked until I was further along.

What Sparked the Financial Turnaround

09:16 Emily: I see. Yeah, that kind of makes sense, actually, because you were thinking about yourself as a student again. I guess that’s part of what this podcast is about, right? Making a wider awareness known that graduate school should be handled financially completely differently than you’ve handled your undergraduate degree. So when did this start to change? When did you start to have a greater degree of engagement or awareness around your finances?

09:40 Amanda: Sure. So my boyfriend at the time, now husband, had started reading, I Will Teach You to Be Rich, a book by Ramit Sethi. And if you’re not familiar with it, it’s really a book that just sort of walks you through how to set up a financial framework tohelp you be successful. He talks about how to use credit cards strategically how to set up the right sorts of bank accounts — checking savings, how to get started investing. He was reading that book and we just decided to read it together. We worked through it chapter by chapter. And from there, we started feeling really motivated by by that book, in particular.

10:23 Emily: This is really interesting to me, because this may be a better question for your husband, but the title of Ramit’s book, I Will Teach You to Be Rich — how did you even have the idea that that book was for you, because rich was nowhere near what was going on for you at that time?

10:40 Amanda: Not even close.

10:41 Emily: Maybe it was the teach you, like you were a learner, you wanted to be taught?

10:45 Amanda: I remember being really resistant to the book because I hated the title. I remember actually making fun of it or just saying, wow, it seems really cocky. And there were parts of the writing style where I felt like it was a little more aggressive than really appealed to me. But I also found I was just kind of drawn in by some of the message. I was initially a little bit resistant. And I had the, “Oh, I’m a poor grad student” identity I definitely did. I thought of myself as a poor graduate student and thought, “well, all grad students are poor. That’s what it’s supposed to be.” And I hadn’t challenged that at all at that point. But I do remember being actually turned off by the title of the book, so it’s funny that you mentioned that. But he was reading it and it was fun to be reading a book together too, and having that partner to talk things through and bounce ideas off of, and then we were able to hold each other accountable to actually doing something once we had read through the book.

11:42 Emily: Yeah. So did you encounter any other resistance to that identity as a poor graduate student? Was that pushing back at all against the messaging you’re receiving from the book?

Mindset Shift

11:55 Amanda: Yeah. I came up against some limiting beliefs at that point. As I was reading the book, I started having these feelings that “oh, well, I feel like I’m starting too late” or “as a graduate student, I don’t make enough money for financial planning to be worthwhile, that that’s still not something I can do.” I was simultaneously feeling like I had waited too long and like I still needed to wait longer. And that was really frustrating for me, because I have the type of personality where once I decide I want to do something, I want to act on it right now, or yesterday. It was frustrating to me to start learning about all these things, but not really feel like I had the means to put everything that I wanted to into place right away.

12:38 Emily: Yeah, I can imagine that a lot of people starting to learn about personal finance in graduate school, from whatever source, can feel that way. And it’s to your credit that you kept engaging with the material, instead of just totally turning off and say, “Oh, I have to pick up this book again in a few years later on.” I can definitely understand why hearing the message, while maybe this is not what he intended, but to you interpreting as I’m already starting too late when you were probably in what your mid-20s or so?

13:07 Amanda: Yeah.

13:09 Emily: Yeah, it’s not like objectively actually that late, but when you understand that people who did not go to graduate school route can be working on this right away when they finish their bachelor’s or even potentially earlier, that can be really frustrating. And like you said, you have all these great ideas once you start accepting the messages, but still, nothing has really changed in terms of your means and ability to work on them.But still, you were able to start making some changes. Once you started accepting the messages, what did you do right away even while you were still in graduate school?

Small Steps Make a Difference

13:47 Amanda: The book actually had really specific instructions about how to set up — I don’t think he frames it this way, but it’s essentially setting up a framework for yourself. One of the things that Sethi talks about is getting away from high-fee brick and mortar banks. A lot of banks charge to have a checking account if you don’t have a certain amount of money in it. And for most graduate graduate students, those minimums aren’t necessarily realistic. ATM fees are things that just can kind of bleed through. He had recommended switching to an online bank, and at the time, he had specifically, I think, recommended the Charles Schwab high yield investor checking. And so we both switched over our banks, because I think one of us was with Wells Fargo at the time, the other was with Bank of America. We were with exactly those banks that he was saying, “you know what, these are just set up to make you fail. They’re never going to do you any favors, get out.”

14:42 Emily: I don’t think anything has changed in the 10 or so years since that point. I would still say anyone who’s a Bank of America and Wells Fargo, get out of that relationship ASAP.

14:53 Amanda: Exactly. And one of the things that I love about the Charles Schwab account and that I think is really good for grad students, especially if you’re presenting research, is you get reimbursed ATM fees from anywhere in the world. Any ATM fees that you end up paying while you’re at a conference, it can even be an international conference where those can be really steep fees, at the end of the month, you will get a deposit in your checking account that reimburses you for all of those fees. That’s a feature that I just really like, and it’s not a lot of money, but over you know, several years that does start to add up.

15:25 Emily: And I think that on a graduate students stipend, those $3 or $5 here and there — it’s a higher percentage of the money that you’re working with as a graduate student that it would be for Ramit’s general audience. Like maybe that tip is “okay, it’s a good thing for them to do, but it doesn’t make that big of an impact,” but for graduate students, coming up at the end of month with 20 extra dollars or so like that can make a decent difference in your life, especially if your savings goal starts out at that $10, $20, $50 level. That can really help you meet that

15:58 Amanda: Yeah and it’s okay if that’s where you’re starting. Another thing that we did is we set up higher interest savings accounts. This was when interest rates were really low. Right now it’s realistic to maybe get, at the time of this recording anyway, 2% or a little over 2% on a savings account. At that time, I believe 1% was the absolute most you’re going to get, and so we weren’t talking a lot of money, but it was the same principle. I was with one of those banks where I think the interest was under 0.5%, so even with a lot of money, you’re not going to be earning anything. And so, you know, with the amount of money that I that we had in savings at that time, 1% was still only earning us, maybe pennies, but a few more pennies. But over time, as we started saving more and built up an emergency fund, those pennies became a latte every month. Now it looks a little bit more like a dinner out, maybe a modest dinner out, but it’s something. I think it’s important if you can aggregate those kinds of small gains across a bunch of areas, then they do start to make a difference. It’s changing your attitude from I don’t care that I’m bleeding money a little bit here and there on fees and interests that I could be earning. It’s saying, I’m taking control of this and I am mindful of where all of those dollars go and how I can now be in control of my financial situation.

17:26 Emily: Yeah, I can see how this example of changing where you bank can be a really impactful psychological when at the start of a financial journey, like what you’re talking about, because it’s not like you’ve set a savings goal and that you’re feeling discouraged about that, because you know, you only make X amount of money. It’s something that you do have complete control over and it doesn’t cost you any money. In fact, it’s going to be bringing money back into your account, a few dollars at a time. I can definitely see how this can be a wonderful first step to take when you’re starting to take in your financial life. You actually just mentioned a term I wonder, based on our last interview, if you also listen to the Choose FI podcast?

18:07 Amanda: Definitely. What was the term that I used?

18:08 Emily: You didn’t quite say it the way they did — aggregation of marginal gains. I’ll explain that for the audience. This Choose FI podcast is about the financial independence movement. We’ve had a pair of interviews on that with Gov Worker in season three, so if you want to learn more about the FIRE movement, financial independence and retire early, you can listen that one. We also touched on it in Amanda’s first interview. But anyway, on this Choose FI podcast, they have this term that they’ve come up with throughout their episodes, the aggregation of marginal gains, which is when you just make a tiny little change in your financial life, like the one that Amanda just mentioned, of stopping to pay ATM fees or stopping to pay fees just to hold a small balance in a checking or savings account. Those are very, very small things to do. But once you add up ten small things or hundred small things, that aggregation becomes really significant in your finances. This can be that step one for your aggregation of marginal gains. So yeah, thank you so much that example Amanda.

Commercial

19:09 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Long-Term Changes

20:17 Emily: Anything else structurally that you changed around your finances at that time when you first started following the I Will Teach You to Be Rich framework?

20:24 Amanda: One other account that I got set up, which I think in the long run is going to have been really important, is taking control of getting started with retirement savings. Because I had opened the checking account with Charles Schwab, which is an investment firm, I also then opened a Roth IRA and I forced myself to remember that I had had some 401k savings from that editorial job that I had had before, but I wasn’t paying any attention to it. I couldn’t have told you how much I had saved. I sort of knew where it was. I still to this day today do not know how I had had that money invested at that time. So what I did is I opened up an IRA and I rolled that 401k over. And it was not much money, because I had not been — at the time I had been in San Francisco, I was proud to be paying my rent, I wasn’t worried about saving for decades out in the future. But what I did is I got that money to where now I knew where it was and then I had it on my radar to when I had windfall money from contract work or side projects that I was doing, I was like, “You know what, I can start to invest in a Roth IRA.” And that’s something that, sure, it would have been great to start at 18, but I can start right now and that’s still going to be really good for me over time.

21:41 Emily: Yeah, that’s amazing. I love that you specifically tied any windfall money or any extra side hustle money or whatever it was, you then had a place to put it. There wasn’t the extra hurdle of, “Oh, I have an extra $50 in my account right now. What do I do with it? I’m not sure” and it ends up just floating away somewhere you don’t even know where it went. You had then a place to put it. This is another great first step to take, is just to open an account, just to set it up, as long as there’s no minimum, or you can meet the minimum required to open it, just so you have a place about money to go. I think it makes such a huge difference that once you have that goal in mind, okay, any money extra money that comes in, this is where it goes. And it’s really easy to follow through on that once you’ve gotten over the activation barrier of setting up setting up the account.

22:31 Amanda: And both my husband and I, throughout the years have split that money between Roth IRAs and then that’s how we made substantial payments to our student loans. Both of us have done side projects where we might get a couple thousand dollars here and there, for consulting work or book projects or other things. We were very mindful that 100% of that money, we would just take it and allocate it toward one of those two goals. We had actually paid off a good chunk of student loans while we were still in school or within that first year, just because we were really consistent about taking that extra money and putting all of it towards either long term investments or towards the student loans with the highest interest rates, because at that point, we had pooled together all of those loans and actually started tracking, “Okay, what are the interest rates on each of these and which do we need to tackle first?”

23:28 Emily: Is that something else you learned from I Will Teach You to Be Rich, how to handle the debt? Were you following that part of earnings plan as well?

23:37 Amanda: Yes. And we were big fans. It was it was obvious for us that we wanted to tackle highest interest rate first. I know some people will start with the smallest loans, just to get those those wins, that sort of dopamine hit from getting a loan paid off. But for us even if the higher interest rate loans were bigger, we started with those.

23:57 Emily: So you’re going through the remainder of your graduate degree and you had this system for living off of your stipend for your budget and then pushing forward your finances with the extra money that was coming in. That’s how you finished out graduate school. Was there anything you did to keep yourself on this path of sticking to your goals and sticking to this idea of financial improvement through that time?

24:20 Amanda: Yeah. I mentioned that I have an “I want to do things now, now, now” sort of personality. As we transitioned from graduate school to the postdoc phase, we were in a higher cost of living area, but we are making more money. I felt like “okay, now we can start to do some more things.” There are things that we couldn’t do as students that now we can really tackle. One of the things we did, we were in Los Angeles, which means we spent a good amount of time in traffic. We were fortunate enough that we both were working at USC, at the same university. That meant we had a good chunk of time every day in the car and so we started listening to podcasts at that time.

Amanda: Really there’s a handful of podcasts that we had started listening to. We started listening to Afford Anything, Paula Pant’s podcast. We listened to The Mad Fientist, which is another financial independence podcast. We started listening to some entrepreneurial and side hustle podcasts. We were really just looking for ideas for things we could do and those podcasts really kind of helped keep us looking for new improvements that we could make and kept us motivated too. Sometimes the smart thing is not to change your goals, but just keep doing what you’re doing, but for me, I needed that motivation. I needed to be constantly learning new things and assimilating new information, and then making little tweaks along the way.

25:55 Emily: Yeah, I think those are all fantastic suggestions. I also love listening to podcasts. Not surprising, having my own podcast, I love the medium and listen to a lot of different ones. All the ones that you mentioned are excellent. We’ve already mentioned Choose FI, that could be another one to throw into the mix for the listener. Of course mine has a completely different audience than many of these other ones. If you’re already a listener, please stick with it, because I think this will help motivate you as well. And then the other one that I really like for motivation is Dave Ramsey’s podcast/radio show. You probably have to be in a debt repayment phase of life to really appreciate it, but he is very motivational, I will say that. That’s another idea if you’re looking for motivational podcasts.

Life after a Financial Turnaround

Emily: Let’s take the last couple minutes here, Amanda, and just give us some highlights of what’s been going on. What did you hit? You eventually paid off your student loans. What would have been the financial highlights of years, finishing out your postdoc, and then since then?

26:54 Amanda: We were fortunate enough to really get our loans paid off within a couple years of us graduating. That was a huge win for us. But of course, I wanted to keep that momentum going. Every time we complete a goal, I say, “okay, but we can’t lose momentum. So what are we going to do next?” And so we, we paid off the student loans and then we were kind of in that transition to a lower cost of living area, which I covered in that other podcasts, so I won’t talk about it. But that was another thing we wanted to do. My family’s in the Midwest, I had wanted to get back to the Midwest. That was something that we felt was important before we started a family.

Amanda: We started transitioning from high cost of living area to a lower cost of living area and that made home-ownership really feasible for us. We saved up and at the end of the last year — we weren’t planning to buy a house until this year, but we just ended up finding the right house in the right neighborhood, and we we had enough saved where we were able to make that happen. That was one of the latest things we did and now we just had our first child. I had a daughter in June, and so we’re wanting to get a little bit put away for her college already, too. We’re working on that and we’re kind of hoping to make a purchase of a rental property in the next couple years, so that’s another goal that we’re working on right now.

28:14 Emily: I think this is an amazing example of how much your financial progress accelerates once you have the higher income to be working with, and you can’t expect that to necessarily happen if you haven’t laid the groundwork earlier. If you do have the attitude of, “well, I’m still in graduate school, I’m still in my postdoc, I just have to worry about money later,” It’s not necessarily all going to turn on a dime for you when your income changes. But for you, Amanda, because you guys have been working so diligently on these various goals with whatever means you had for all those years, once you had the higher incomes, it was just like, boom, you knew exactly what to do with it. You knew where to funnel your money. You could make really, really quick progress and that’s the same thing that happened my finances as well — laying the groundwork during graduate school, once the income changed, the winds just come faster and faster and faster, even though they were really slow and hard fought in the beginning years. I really appreciate hearing this more about that “after” aspect of your story, after the financial transformation.

29:17 Amanda: I’ve heard that the first $100,000 is the hardest, for net worth. And I do believe that that’s probably true. I don’t know how well documented that is, but that’s something that I’ve heard before on podcasts and on blogs. It does seem like, it doesn’t really matter if it’s $100,000 or whatever it is, the beginning is the hardest to make progress because your money isn’t making much money, you probably aren’t making much money, because otherwise you could be making things move a lot faster. But it is true that if you’re just consistent about it, and have a framework set up and have goals that you’re working towards, it does really feel like your ability to do things does you know pick up pace a little bit.

30:01 Emily: Yeah, I would agree with that. I can definitely attest in my own life, the first $100,000, which I documented, actually, it’s in season one, episode one, of how we got to our first $100,000 of net worth, that was a long journey and it’s the next iterations that have come a lot faster, obviously. Now, I didn’t start very much in debt, we had sort of a slightly negative net worth, not huge. But if you have like a very negative net worth, maybe you’re working on over $100,000 of student loan debt to pay off, there’s sort of two phases to that journey — there’s getting to zero and then there’s getting to the first $100,000, and your first $100,000 of positive net worth will be easier than when you’re working to get to zero. It’ll be easier than that, but it will not be totally as easy as someone who started at zero, if that makes sense, just because of the way compound interest work.

30:54 Amanda: When we first calculated our net worth it was negative. It wasn’t significantly negative. And I do agree that if you are one of those people who happens to have six figures of student loan debt, you’ve got a different process to go through. Hopefully a soon to be future income that will help you tackle that with pretty good pace. When we first calculated it, it was below zero, and that was frustrating. That was definitely something for us that didn’t feel good. But we knew that we couldn’t get to zero and above zero without just tackling it. We were fortunate enough, right around the time we got married, we calculated and we were at zero when we got married, and we had a very, very modest tiny family only wedding in order to keep it that way. We didn’t want the wedding to drag us further down, but I think when we got married we are right around zero. So that was kind of a neat place because symbolically It was like okay, you know, we’re married and now we have nowhere to go but up. Let’s get moving on that.

31:57 Emily: Yeah, that sounds amazing.

Final Words of Advice

32:00 Emily: Final question here, Amanda, which is one that I asked all of my guests. Now, we’ve already heard you say a lot of financial advice during this entire podcast, but it was mostly you following the advice of others. I’m curious now that you’ve been through this whole process, what you would turn around and say to another early career PhD, in terms of your best financial advice for that person?

32:18 Amanda: Sure. So something that we do, and I guess this applies for people who have a partner, something that my husband and I do is we do a monthly finance update. It’s really just a spreadsheet where we keep track of our debts, and our savings and investments. We just go through and update the balances of all of those accounts every month. It doesn’t really take long, but it’s something that I look forward to because it means that we have a conversation around money and it means that at least once a month, probably more often just because it’s become a hobby of mine. But you know, if it’s not something you’re that interested in scheduling a regular check in, like once a month, it’s just a good way to make sure that you’re communicating financially. And I feel like that’s been really good for us because it means we’re making sure we’re still on the same page about our goals. And if we are starting to have different ideas, then we have a conversation about Okay, do we want to prioritize this thing or this other thing first?

33:18 Emily: Yeah, that’s a fantastic suggestion. Again, for anyone who is in a relationship with another person, however you handle your finances, you know, joint separate or Yours, Mine and Ours. I think that monthly check in can serve any one of those models really well.

Emily: Amanda, it’s been an absolute delight to have you back on the podcast. I’m so glad that you made time for this. Congratulations on the new addition to your family, both the baby and the house and the potential next rental property, all of it. It sounds wonderful, and it was really great to catch up with you today.

33:47 Amanda: Yeah, you too. It was good to talk to you, Emily. And thanks for having me on.

Outtro

33:51 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.