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This PhD Promotes DEI with a Focus on Finances

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Carolina Mendoza Cavazos, who holds a PhD in microbiology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison and currently works in industry. Carolina has long been interested in and open about personal finances, and she focused her DEI efforts while in graduate school around finances, including starting a money club and creating clear communications regarding pay and benefits. Carolina shares her insights into the kinds of financial issues graduate students face and how universities should back up their recruitment of diverse candidates with sufficient financial support and communication. Finally, Carolina and Emily discuss the financial goals and lifestyle upgrades Carolina has enjoyed since starting her job in industry.

Links mentioned in the Episode

PhD Promotes Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion with a Focus on Finances

Teaser

Carolina (00:00): Basically like who, who can afford to go to graduate school and how the people that have made it to graduate school, how can we support them during? There’s a lot of focus on the DEI efforts within recruiting. I also think that if there is not a support system for the students that are coming in and staying, I think that is a disservice to the minorities that you recruited. While it’s really great to get a fellowship, if the school can get to brag about the funding that you have, the schools should also support you through the issues that may arise due to that funding.

Introduction

Emily (00:55): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:24): This is Season 18, Episode 3, and today my guest is Dr. Carolina Mendoza Cavazos, who holds a PhD in microbiology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison and currently works in industry. Carolina has long been interested in and open about personal finances, and she focused her DEI efforts while in graduate school around finances, including starting a money club and creating clear communications regarding pay and benefits. Carolina shares her insights into the kinds of financial issues graduate students face and how universities should back up their recruitment of diverse candidates with sufficient financial support and communication. Finally, Carolina and I discuss the financial goals and lifestyle upgrades she has enjoyed since starting her job in industry.

Emily (02:10): When I teach budgeting, I emphasize that it actually consists of two components, budgeting aka telling your money what to do and tracking aka checking that your money did what you told it to do. While I love and use automated tracking software, in my opinion nothing beats manual tracking, which naturally keeps you accountable to yourself for your spending. In fact, last year I made a custom expense tracking spreadsheet for my own use. If you would like to try out manual expense tracking, feel free to take my spreadsheet and use it as is or build it out however you like. I built in a couple of budgeting principles that I like to follow and teach to PhDs. There’s a companion video available explaining those principles. If you’d like to grab the spreadsheet, it’s totally free, simply sign up through PFforPhDs.com/tracker/. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s18e3/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Carolina Mendoza Cavazos of Finances with Carolina.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:29): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Dr. Carolina Mendoza Cavazos. She is a scientist working in the private sector. She finished her PhD about two years ago, and like me, Carolina is also really, really into personal finance and also she has a special focus on DEI, efforts related to personal finance. And Carolina has a website called FinancesWithCarolina.com, and I first came across her, it must have been several years ago on Twitter, and I’ve been keeping my eye on her for a while. We finally had reason to connect recently and set up this podcast interview, which I’m really excited about. So Carolina, would you please go ahead and introduce yourself further for the audience?

Carolina (04:04): Sure thing, Emily. Hi everyone, my name is Carolina and I obtained my PhD at the University of Wisconsin Madison. I’m currently a scientist in the r and d department at Promega, and um, I’m very excited to be here today.

Finances During Childhood, College, and Beyond

Emily (04:21): Yeah, let’s go back, um, even further because I want to hear about, uh, your background, especially with respect to finances starting kind of in your childhood. You can give us a brief overview of how things were, um, financially growing up and then through college and graduate school and I’m, I’m interested both in kind of materially what was going on and also how that affected your mindset through that period.

Carolina (04:41): My family and I moved to United States in 2011 and I finished my senior year of high school, then applied to college and I obtained my undergrad at California State University Fullerton. My dad is an accountant, so he talked about money quite often. I would say that being an immigrant, we did have certain like mindset that came with that and frugality was a really important one. I would say that from the both sides of my family, either one or two generations broke the cycle of poverty and I grew up in a family with two college educated parents and we were able to migrate here to the United States, um, due to a job opportunity for my mom. So that was kinda um, how we got here. I would say I was always interested in finances in general in college. The first time I got a paycheck was through a program called MARC Maximizing Access to Career Research and is a pipeline for like graduate school program. So that’s kind of where my budgeting journey started. I lived at home, uh, during college and receiving that paycheck was the first time that I was, you know, making all my budgeting spreadsheets and stuff like that.

Emily (05:58): Yeah. So let’s kind of turn to graduate school now. It actually seems like you were set up pretty well to understand maybe the finance of graduate school having been in that program, the MARC program during undergrad. Um, so tell us about like that transition and maybe the kinds of offers you got and whether you considered, you know, finances. It sounds like you probably would in your selection of which university to attend.

Carolina (06:17): I don’t think I looked at the stipend as carefully as I would today. I gravitated towards the Midwest because the Midwest had awesome microbiology and I knew I was gonna end up somewhere in the Midwest. Um, my last two top school choices, like were between UW Madison where I ended up attending and um, Wash U. So those were my two offers. And in general, stipend wise, they were pretty similar. However, UW Madison had a program similar to MARC called SciMed, shout out to SciMed, it’s called Science and Science and Medicine Scholars. And basically it was a community that I could plug into that I did not see at any other universities and I felt that that was, uh, a good fit for me. So that’s kind of why I decided to go to UW Madison.

Emily (07:16): So tell us a little bit more about how finances were going for you during graduate school. You said that you had, you know, uh, a frugal and a debt averse kind of background with your family. Um, you’re in the Midwest. Yeah. Was the stipend livable? Were you able to save? How are things going for you personally?

Carolina (07:33): Yeah, in terms of finances, I did move here to Madison with a partner at the time, now my husband and we, that’s kind of when we started not fully merging our finances, but we’re definitely operating as a household at the moment and basically we were like kind of equally splitting everything. So that was definitely helpful and I would say that the stipend was livable, however, having a partner was definitely helpful. And one interesting thing is that I was funded the whole time during graduate school, so the five years I had different grants, fellowships, things like that. So I was fortunate that I didn’t have to pay segregated fees or like the student fees for that. Um, I ended up working as an hourly for assignment and that was, um, a workaround in order to get retirement benefits like a 403B or something like that.

Carolina (08:35): I definitely think that my husband and I had like different mindsets about finances and it was interesting to kind of get into that. But I would say in graduate school I found your podcast through Hello PhD and I think the, the thing that really caught my attention was the use of, um, buckets for like high yield savings accounts. So I think that that was like one of the first things that I did in order to get the same service but like in a cheaper way. Like for example, like car insurance, I faced a lot of issues with funding transitions that ended up being, in my opinion, DEI issues in terms that I don’t know, I, I saw a lot of the times like the same pe- people in the program doing the same jobs and being funded differently would still face different issues. And in terms for advanced opportunity fellowships like for, um, minorities like me and things like that, I would say like that was like a double whammy of you might have a surprise tax bill and things like that. And like how, how do you deal with that? Do you, do you have your emergency fund set up? Do you rely on a network? Is there network that you can rely? Do you incur debt? And things like that. Issues that I encounter with my funding, I always wonder and through the grapevine have heard that other people that were funded had this issues. So I think that that was my first step to get into using personal finance and deed efforts during graduate school.

Financial Challenges During Grad School

Emily (10:15): Hmm. Yeah, I definitely wanna hear about more about that in a minute. Um, can you expand at all on the, the issues you were just talking about with like the funding? So like quarterly estimated tax bills. We talk about that a lot in the podcast, hopefully the listeners familiar with that. Um, anything else? Like, just tell me what, what the issues were that you either experienced or that you observed.

Carolina (10:35): Yes, so one of the issues right off the bat was taxes obviously. And um, I definitely had a tax bill that I wasn’t expecting and I wasn’t aware of the fellowship, um, quarterly estimated taxes on my first year or something like that, the Kiddie tax. Why not? One of the things that I would say is that access to benefits was a little different. So for example, there was no, someone in my lab and me, the other peop- the other person could contribute to an FSA account or they would be able to and eligible to open a 403B. Um, what else? Gaps in insurance or, um, what are they called? Potential gaps in insurance. For example, some of my friends that were in the NSF were getting COBRA letters when they were having their funding transitions because you might have lost insurance and they were not aware of this and it was just because some paperwork was delayed and things like that.

Carolina (11:46): Personally, I did a, an internship during my fourth year summer, somewhere between fourth and fifth, and I had to take a short leave of absence for that. I had to prepay my insurance and there was a lot of issues with that. Um, I, I think I was the first one to do this and the program that was receiving a stipend that, that was receiving a stipend and had to pause that in order to go into the private sector and get, um, private sector money. Usually if you were in your, I don’t know, a W2 route, I don’t know how they would have handled it, but there was miscommunication on that. Uh, one point I wasn’t sure if I was gonna have insurance over the summer and access to healthcare is definitely something that everybody should have. And, um, I had some health issues during graduate school, so that was a very scary time for me.

Carolina (12:45): And through the grapevine again when that happened, I started documenting if other people have faced this within the, the fellowships during, within the T32s and stuff like that. So when I was working as an hourly for assignment, some of my job was to write down what should you do if you are going to into a internship, what are the, um, I also implemented, I was part of the DEI committee in my program and I also proposed and implemented a funding transition form to pinpoint where is your money coming from in this semester? Where is your money gonna come from next time? Do these people know each other? Should we introduce everybody? Do they know that you’re coming or that you’re leaving the, the fellowship training grant, et cetera. And I found a lot of people that were having trouble with this things and it wasn’t just me. So I think that there is, there, there is a very powerful thing in community and I was trying to find the people that were having these issues and try to play safety nets for when people did face them because they’re bound to happen sometimes. They knew what to do, who to contact and things like that.

Emily (14:10): So helpful. I mean, it’s amazing that you, you know, worked along with your peers to put that resource together, um, through SciMed. It sounds like it was kind of part of your job, but to the extent, yes, you were doing it and it wasn’t part of your job, uh, amazing community service, but probably should have been taken up by the university. Um, obviously they’re the ones providing these benefits or facilitating the benefits, so like, yeah, they should be taking charge and making sure the transitions are seamless. I think about some this sometimes with respect to the tax questions of, you know, calculating, filing quarterly estimated tax or dealing with stuff during tax season. Um, like I know it’s really normal in the US for your employer to be very hands off about taxes. Like yeah, we’ll do withholding, that’s it, that’s the extent of what we’ll handle. But like universities aren’t even doing that much in most cases for fellowship recipients. And I do think they should be a little bit more proactive and, and thank you so much to the ones that work with me and are proactive about this, but be proactive about at least communicating right when the students, um, about what’s gonna happen. And it sounds like not, not only in the tax realm, but it extends with all these other benefits like you were just talking about. So I’m really glad you kind of gave us that overview. Um, so it sounds like you were working with, you know, SciMed and also talking with your peers. Can you tell me a little bit more about kind of what you learned or observed about how your peers were handling this stuff financially? Not just with, with respect to the benefits issues that we just spoke about, but maybe more generally what they needed to know or what they needed to apply, um, in their personal finances during graduate school?

The Birth of the Money Club

Carolina (15:36): Yeah, I, I think a lot of my peers were either, I don’t know, like I would say like there was like two categories. People that were in the category of like, you know what, I don’t wanna think about it. I am, I’m gonna take a pause on this while I’m in graduate school and once I figure out what my career path is gonna be, I’m gonna pick it up. And there was a small subset, small but mighty that was interested on talking about this and was sort of like, I think the taxes are the foot in the door for everybody that they’re just want to learn a little bit more of how to handle those. But once they’re in and then you just start chatting and like, where do you put your tax money before the thing is due? How are you, um, self withholding and things like that. I think that was kind of like the natural birth of the, the, the money club that we developed. And I really can’t remember if that was part of the SciMed job or eventually we kind intertwined it or something like that. The SciMed job was basically really help your community, how can you do this? Obviously there was like events and food ordering or flyer making and stuff like that, but I, at one point I was trying to explore student services as a career, so I think that that was my in, um, with that position. And then it turned into a way for me to look at this DEI issues and try to create resources for the people that were within the fellowship where in the fellowship were gonna come into the fellowship and things like that.

Emily (17:22): I totally agree with you that the taxes are the way to most, uh, you know, getting most people’s attention into personal finances. Yeah. Uh, where did it go after that? You know, you already mentioned using targeted savings or sinking funds as a helpful sort of addendum to your budgeting. Did you all talk about that or what other topics did ended up being of interest to this group?

Carolina (17:42): One of the topics definitely people were interested in investing. I think that that was one of the other ones that we’re kind of popular and, um, I don’t know, mystified a little bit and people wanted to ask around. I think, I think the money club really started getting around going like in 2021 after the summer of 2020, um, when George Floyd was murdered the entire a a group in the program started writing a letter to our admins and our professors and things like that in which we were quote unquote demanding changes in our program and whatever. So I was involved in that effort and I do remember putting some personal finance stuff in there and, um, I think when the whole program read it and they knew that there was like some of the things that I was requesting, like for example, um, I had recommended you to, to our program. I don’t know if they ended up hiring you or not. Basically like in the program then I, I became known as the person that talked about money and then people that wanted to talk about money found me. And, um, the other topics that I would say not so much as investing, but I kinda wrapped it around with investing was retirement and some of the benefits that the university was offering for students that did have access to those. The majority of my program was not like brought partners or anything like that. I, I don’t remember, but sometimes there was students that had in their budget a, a way to invest and they just wanted to start.

Emily (19:22): Absolutely. For me, I always say taxes and investing are my two favorite topics to discuss. And it’s lucky because those are the two top, um, most popular topics that get requested, which is really fun for me. Um, it’s so interesting too being in an environment where some people have access to that 403B, um, and even the other, well you mentioned FSA not an HSA, um, through the university, but perhaps other benefits that’d be relevant, you know, for investing. Um, and obviously if you’re on fellowship or, and if you’re not an employee, you’re not gonna have access to that, but it sounds like a subset of people would, and you and you also had access to <crosstalk>.

Carolina (19:55): So I found a loophole

Emily (19:57): Yeah. To be, um, a proper W2 employee at least for a few hours enough to give you that benefit.

Carolina (20:03): And I made it automatic that all a hundred percent of my hours with SciMed would go to the 403B.

Emily (20:10): Well, that’s kind of cool that they let you do that. I know sometimes employers that have like a restriction like no more than 50% of your paycheck or 25 or something, but obviously since it was just part-time for you, if that makes sense. Um, yeah. Anything else you wanna tell us about the money club?

Carolina (20:25): I think people just need safe spaces to talk about money, and I think it’s one of the cases that if you create it, people will come. I, I personally feel that a lot of people wanted to start working on their finances and they just didn’t have the language, the space, sometimes the resources or like the, the uh, uh, closed mindset of, well, I’m not making enough money so I, how can I work on this? And I think that’s my main, one of the things that I try to help people with is that your personal finance, like, and starting to work in your personal finance, it doesn’t have to be this ginormous thing that you have to put thousands of dollars into it. I think it’s small actions that just kind of add up and, um, my whole spiel is that I, I would like to create systems that you later edit when you get a different job and there’s a lot of things that you can do in order to work in your personal finance that don’t cost money or they can be a $2 thing and, and it’s more of like flexing that muscle as a lot of people say in the community. I think it’s true.

Emily (21:51): I totally agree. Um, and I, going back to kind of what you said earlier about, you know, the, you sort of encounter two kinds of people, like some people who wanted to engage, but some people just wanna say, you know, I’m not making that much money, it’s not the right time to be working my finances. I will pick this up later. And they are overlooking that benefit of, as you said, flexing the muscle of learning a few skills, of getting a little bit of extra knowledge, um, whether that can be applied during grad school or whether it’s just gonna be something that’s practiced a bit or set aside for later. Um, all of that does help you set up for financial success in your next post PhD career when you have that higher salary coming in. And of course it will be easier in some sense when you have, when you’re making more money, but if you’ve never practiced budgeting, if you’ve never really thought about what’s important to you in your spending, if you’ve never opened an IRA before, well that’s stuff you’re gonna have to learn, um, when the stakes are a little bit higher later on. So of course you know that I’m a proponent of working on that stuff during graduate school, you know, if at all possible, and as you said, it doesn’t have to, you don’t have to be able to save necessarily to have a savings rate to do positive things, um, in your personal finance, there’s lots of cost neutral things that you could do. Um, and hopefully you can get to a point where you’re able to save.

Commercial

Emily (23:05): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2024-2025 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Orientations or very close to the start of the academic year would be a perfect time for tax education or general personal finance content. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

DEI and Personal Finance

Emily (24:32): I wanna get back to this point about how you, um, use the topic of personal finance within your own DEI efforts. And it’s something you’ve mentioned a few different aspects of it until now, but I just wanted you to just make it really explicit, like how do you view this and how do you work in this area?

Carolina (24:47): So I think DEI efforts are sometimes in some spaces, and this is not particularly about my university or my program or anything like that, but they get a little bit performative and they can get into, uh, check a box. We have a DEI committee and that’s it. That’s it. So I was involved in the DEI committee since this founding at, um, my program after the letter that I mentioned that we wrote. So through that there was two representatives for the students in this committee and we’ll bring issues forward regarding whatever our, our peers had brought up. And a lot of those ones sometimes were personal finance related, for example, there was one time that our paycheck schedule changed from a monthly to a biweekly time and a lot of the students were like, how am I gonna make rent if the biweekly paycheck is happening and then that I’m receiving that in this amount of time. I don’t have a safety net to just make that payment at the beginning of the, of the month if this happens. Um, so trying to make explicit what type of resources are available in the university for, uh, emergency hardship and stuff like that. That was one thing I definitely always advocated for more clarity on funding transitions as well as the fellowship letter. For example, I know that that one or my specific university came in March while your W2 came in January. So we had a case in which a student basically submitted their tax return after they got a W2 and they then they got the fellowship letter and they had to amend it. So basically being more transparent and proactive about the types of issues that funded students might face having I, I know one of my, um, one of the other representatives really advocated for having the, the number of the stipend for our incoming students instead of just kind being this nebulous number that you kind of hear there when you’re already in the interview.

Carolina (27:24): During the time that I was there, another person, not myself, but they got my full support, was really trying to start the conversation of a livable wage. So what is that? Like, how do we compare to other programs? And um, she did a tremendous effort, um, in order to look at the cost of living and how is that going and how, you know, it might not be our stipend might not be keeping up with this, what are we gonna do about that? So I would say that I definitely advocated for transparency in my, um, dei position from the program for the university. And I basically started spreading the information and just kinda reporting back to the committee and say like, this is what I did and I had my, my PI’s full support. I was very fortunate that she had my back. And um, there was instances in which I think if my PI was not supportive, like maybe they could have been like some issues and um, in terms of just like, hey, I think that what we’re doing is wrong, not wrong, but like not having the stipend number really there.

Emily (28:46): Yeah. Sort of obfuscating. Yeah.

Carolina (28:49): Yeah, I didn’t like that as much. My main issue was the medical coverage and I, I did as much as I could in order to create as much documentation and as much process safety nets for people to not receive that letter, um, of the COBRA Fellowship, um, not have to pay out of pocket for necessary prescriptions. If you have a lacking coverage, you cannot even make an a, a doctor’s appointment. It’s not like you can make it for later when you have coverage, they’re just not gonna talk to you. I had a back injury during graduate school and um, other chronic conditions that access to healthcare was, is necessary for everyone, but for me was particularly scary not to, and just the threat of not having it, it’s sometimes it was just that the, some deadline was occurring and like you’d really never had a lack of care. But just having that big thing in your brain that you might not have it, I think you, that takes you away from science and then you’re worrying about that instead of your experiment.

Emily (30:04): That’s exactly what I was thinking when you were going through, um, that response is that if we want to keep graduate students and postdocs, um, focused on their research, focused on progressing in their programs, successful in their academics, academia has to materially support them properly so they aren’t one distracted by the things like the benefit issues and all the, all the one things that we’ve talked about so far. Um, but then also by financial stress overall, um, having to be super, super frugal or having to make very extreme sacrifices in what your expenses are. Or on the flip side, you know, maybe spending a lot of time side hustling because your stipend is just not sufficient. And as a DEI issue, I mean if we want <laugh> more diversity in academia, um, and more people being successful across the board, we have to support them in a way that we’re assuming that they’re not gonna have to depend on family members or partners or other people who might or might not be able to contribute financially to them. Um, and frankly, a lot of people, you know, now have caregiving responsibilities. They have to contribute to the finances, other families too. And so again, you can’t even assume it’s just like a single person and all we have to do is provide for your basic living expenses and that should be enough for you because even these small bumps in the road, like you’ve been talking about these small emergencies or something medical comes up or I have to take an unexpected flight, these irregular expenses that you mentioned earlier, um, that can completely throw off your budget if you’re living with very little margin very close to the edge in the first place. So the way that I see it, we just have to fund graduate students, um, more than the baseline, right? Like not even the living wage. We gotta go beyond the living wage because you, to really be financially secure, you have to have a savings rate because these things will ease emergencies, these things will come up and it’s so much easier to recover from them and get back to being focused on your program and on your work, um, when you have the finances there and you don’t have to scramble and be stressed about it. So <laugh> that’s my part of the soapbox there. Um, yeah, anything more that you’d like to say about your, like the way that you do these DEI efforts?

Carolina (32:13): What, what I, I currently try to do and what I tried to do during graduate school was really providing the information that some people might not have. Basically like who, who can afford to go to graduate school and how the people that have made it to graduate school, how can we support them during, I believe that there are, there’s a lot of focus on the DEI efforts within recruiting and being like, yes, come to our university and having admissions numbers. And I think that that is very important. I also think that if there is not a support system for the students that are coming in and staying, I think that is a disservice to the minorities that you recruited. So while it’s really great to get a fellowship and it’s really good to be a funded student and that opens the doors for you to go into a lab that you might not have access before or gives you more research freedom and things like that, I think that if, if the school can get to brag about the funding that you have, the schools should also support you through the issues that may arise due to that funding.

Emily (33:48): Very good point. Thank you so much for adding that. Let’s turn our attention back to you in your post PhD life with your proper job, with your proper, uh, salary, which sounds amazing. So how are you pursuing financial goals these days and how are you doing with your, um, spending and just like, what’s going on in your finances now?

Post-PhD Finances

Carolina (34:08): Well, the private industry pays very well and as we know, our equation for our budgeting income is one of the biggest, um, in there. So I would say that for the first six months that I was at my full-time employment, I didn’t give myself a raise and I threw everything into retirement. So I think I started in the end of August, so I tried to get as close as the max as I could for the employee sponsored 401k and um, that, that was really great because, um, we were used to living in a given stipend and we didn’t really change much during those six months. Then after that I would say that my husband and I made a list of things that we wanted to upgrade in our house and one of them was a new bed <laugh>, one of them was a new fridge and, you know, things that we were like, it’s large expenses and is, I don’t know, it just felt like it was definitely a, a pivotal moment in an income that we could just buy this and not really like budget for it or something like that. And I, I think we bought the fridge for like a bonus or something <laugh> my sign up bonus or something like that. And I would say right now, because in graduate school I faced some medical issues, I would say that I really became a quote unquote vaulist that I was really trying to find what adds value to my life and the things that I really care about. And I think when people get sick or something like that, they really turn inward and, and start thinking of like, what is important in life. And I really started seeing like, okay, what in my budget reflects my values? What doesn’t and how can we reconcile those? So for example, family is very important to me and my husband, so I am happy that travel is a big category in my budget and we, we ran the numbers for the last year and I think like that was like our third category that we spend money on because our families are not here, so we have to travel to see them and we are pursuing fire. I think right now we don’t have responsibilities that are really sinking funds at the moment. So, um, I think I’m, we’re just kinda understanding what this new income can do and where can we put it into the long term retirement plans. And I’m also focusing on trying to live the life that I, I want. And I feel like during graduate school sometimes people really throw themselves into work and they’re like, they’re passionate about their stuff and they kind of like sometimes like don’t have like outside things. I definitely was guilty of that. So I’m trying to course correct and really focus on things that bring me joy in my every day today and spend on those ones I wouldn’t say previously, but definitely spend on, on the things that bring me joy and the things that I don’t care about, like my cell phone plan to definitely cut it as much as I can.

Emily (38:00): I just hope that, um, the listeners who are still in graduate school and are looking forward to the transition that you, um, have com- have, um, completed, can remember this example when they’re in your shoes because in, in my view, you have executed this like just perfectly <laugh>, um, which is kind of a combination of live like a grad student, like okay, don’t make any major changes right away. You, it sounds like you didn’t have to move or anything. So like there was some stability and it was, uh, easier in a sense to continue on with your previous level of spending, but in combination with that sort of as a default, okay, we’re not gonna, we’re gonna default to not changing anything, but then as you said, be so intentional about thinking through where you do want to spend more or where you wanna save more, um, to reach your financial goals and your lifestyle goals and everything and just add money to those buckets and to those places, um, and really get, as you said, like introspective about what’s important to you and apply that to your budget and reconcile them as best you can. Um, I just think it’s a wonderful, wonderful example, especially for someone who, who doesn’t right immediately after graduate school because the moving process brings in like more variables and more opportunities for like chaos in your budget when you have those kinds of transitions. That was the one that I went through personally. But yeah, I just think it’s so wonderful and awesome job. Of course, given the background that we heard, we knew that you were gonna do an awesome job with this, but it’s just amazing to like hear some more details about that.

Financial Mindsets, Skills, and Habits That Help With Post-PhD Life

Emily (39:22): Were there any skills or mindsets that you developed during graduate school with respect to your finances that you found useful in this post PhD, uh, life that you haven’t already brought up?

Carolina (39:34): I think making things automatic was something that I am still doing and I’m glad that I started before and I think like going back to the beginning about the savings accounts and we, we had a lot of transactions being automatic and right now I feel like we’re just kind of coasting. Like it, it’s something that we, we have developed already and I think that I’m never gonna pay my car insurance by month. I think that that is something that, um, I started doing in grad school because it was cheaper and now we, we just kind of continue with that. I think the frugal mindset of, of graduate students and like finding fun things to do for free, that is something that I have continued. Just yesterday I went to the library because they had a craft cafe and I made a craft and I had a blast and, and it cost $0. So I, I think a graduate student is good at finding those things around and taking the opportunity to, you know, have fun with a free activity when you, when your stipend is not as large, you sometimes like you really try to find the things that you care about and spend money on those. Like for example, I have a friend that he was willing to bike in and he bought a rather expensive bike, but it brought him a lot of joy and that was something that he did during graduate school and biking was his like stress reliever. So that was very worth it for him. And I think finding the things that are worth it for you, I think graduate school is a great time because you are sort of like tied on the money side and then sort of like continue those things and cut merci- mercifully, um, in the rest.

Finances with Carolina

Emily (41:37): Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, that’s Ramit Sethi <laugh>. I know that quote. Yeah. Um, well it was so great. It was so wonderful talking with you Carolina. Can you tell the listeners more about Finances with Carolina and what you do through your business?

Carolina (41:48): Sure. This business started out of the money club and I, I wanted to have a space in which I can help graduate students that are facing similar challenges to the ones that I faced or that my peers faced. And I would say that right now I do a lot of coaching calls in which students fill out a questionnaire that I have for them and that covers things, uh, as I mentioned, what brings you joy in your life and uh, I’m not gonna ask them to cut in their budget if that thing brings them joy <laugh> and, um, we go all over debt repayment and, um, trying to set up those high yield savings account, what are irregular expenses that they are gonna face. Retirement a lot of people are interested in that. And I would say personally from my community, I think finding someone that went through graduate school is just helpful that they can relate to you. I think that that is something that you and I bring to our communities that we, we know what it was like and we know what the problems might have been and, and heard about certain solutions or know someone that might have gone into that. So I would say the network that we, that I developed during graduate school, I have been using that for my clients as well. If someone is, and, and right now I would say coaching like just once on ones are my main focus and the way that I try to get funded is basically making the program, uh, cover those so the grad student doesn’t have to pay. Yeah, anything from budgeting to debt repayment. And I really like the one-on-one conversation. I I don’t think that’s scalable, but uh, I’m having a lot of fun with that. So, and I do like having an impact on someone’s life directly. So I think that’s why I am, I’m keeping it on the one-on-ones at the moment and I do have one digital product in which I have put like just kind of like stuff together in which, what the most common questions are and things like that. And I understand that not everybody likes the, the chatty, um, the chattiness that comes with like one-on-one coaching. So that’s, um, why I developed that one. In the future I hope to develop one that is not focused on graduate students and just in general because now I have been finding at work that some people that I did not find them in graduate school and they’re now starting their careers and they’re in their first full-time job with benefits and things like that, they’re a little bit lost. So that is another digital product that I wanna develop but is not ready yet. <laugh>.

Emily (44:38): Yeah, sounds like you’re repeating, repeating what you did during graduate school. You’re, you’re just a person that is open about money that people can feel comfortable talking to you and you find other people who are interested and you find other people who need your help at every single stage. So that’s just wonderful. And tell the listeners where they can find you.

Carolina (44:55): Yes, listeners can find me at financeswithcarolina.com and in there there’s uh, there’s a link to the digital product that I talked about. Um, there’s a link to the coaching services and things like that. So if you find me relatable and you wanna chat about money, schedule something <laugh>.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (45:16): Beautiful. Okay, let’s finish up with the last question that I ask of all my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve already touched on in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Carolina (45:29): My best financial advice. The, it’s, it’s a marathon, not a sprint. And I think that if you start flexing the muscle of working on your personal finances with small changes that are sustainable in realistic for you, you’re more likely to stick to those goals. I would also say that in order to keep that momentum going and that inspiration that you sometimes need on, on personal finance, I really would like to encourage the listeners to find content creators that speak with relative, like speak to you in experiences that you relate to in experiences that you might have aspirational in things. And, and overall really find the content that is gonna keep you motivated. And the content is the same, it’s just the delivery, it’s the, the, the experiences that the people that are delivering the content, the network of those people. So overall, find someone that does inspire you and keep you motivated and slow and steady.

Emily (46:46): All right. Name your top few content creators that you love to follow for, for yourself personally.

Carolina (46:52): Yes. Um, well of course your podcast. I think that was one of the ones that Hello PhD. You you did a cross interview with them and that’s how I find you and I was just mesmerized of all the things that I could do with my stipend <laugh>. Um, so that’s one definitely related to graduate school in terms of minorities, I I really like the podcast Brown ambition. There’s two ladies in there and they have everything about career questions, entrepreneurship, money stuff and how that relates to one another. They’re in different stages of their careers and lives and just very interesting to see where they’re coming from and where they’re going. Uh, popcorn Finance is another one that is very nice and um, it has a lot of investing. I love their investing series. I referred everyone to that one because they have a lot of content of like, what is an ETF, what is an index fund, what is a lot of what is and and when you start reading all these things,

Emily (48:01): I didn’t know about that series. I’m gonna check that out.

Carolina (48:03): It’s really good. Um, journey to Launch is another one, that I follow, she definitely has like really cool interviews and just a lot of inspirational stories. Afford anything by Paula Pant. Yeah, those, those ones are the ones that like I probably listen like yesterday or today.

Emily (48:27): Yeah, every single one of those podcasts is also on my feed except for Popcorn Finance. I’ve only listened on and off to Popcorn Finance, but the rest of ’em, I’m a regular listener. I love all of them, especially, um, Afford Anything is like taking the podcast medium to like the next level with like journalism, um, around finances, which is so amazing. Paula Pant doing an amazing job. Um, okay. Well Carolina, thank you so much for giving this interview. It’s been really insightful and it’s been lovely talking with you. Um, thank you so much for agreeing to come on.

Carolina (48:55): Of course.

Outtro

Emily (49:06): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This International Graduate Student Grew His Career and Social Wealth Alongside His Net Worth

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Cyrus Liu, a postdoctoral fellow in computer science at Grinnell College. Cyrus came to the US from China as a graduate student without any knowledge of how the US financial system works. Over the course of his PhD, Cyrus found ways to minimize his expenses and increase his income so that he could meet his goal of investing $500 per month into a Roth IRA and a taxable brokerage account. He also invested in his physical and mental health and grew his career and social wealth in a frugal manner. Cyrus ends the interview with incredible insights into why he was motivated to work on his finances during graduate school and in what ways academics are truly wealthy.

Links mentioned in the Episode

How This International Graduate Student Grew His Career and Social Wealth Alongside His Net Worth

Teaser

Cyrus (00:00): Don’t underestimate yourself because you are a PhD student and you definitely have the knowledge base and then sharing those knowledge with the community, and you are passing to the knowledge. This is the wealth we possess, right? Normally people think we are poor, but actually, and a wider definition of the wealth here we have this part to share with someone else.

Introduction

Emily (00:33): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:01): This is Season 18, Episode 2, and today my guest is Dr. Cyrus Liu, a postdoctoral fellow in computer science at Grinnell College. Cyrus came to the US from China as a graduate student without any knowledge of how the US financial system works. Over the course of his PhD, Cyrus found ways to minimize his expenses and increase his income so that he could meet his goal of investing $500 per month into a Roth IRA and a taxable brokerage account. He also invested in his physical and mental health and grew his career and social wealth in a frugal manner. Cyrus ends the interview with incredible insights into why he was motivated to work on his finances during graduate school and in what ways academics are truly wealthy.

Emily (01:45): I’m offering a new slate of workshops for my university clients this fall, and over the summer I’m practicing delivering these workshops for free to a limited number of graduate students and postdocs on the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list. Last month, we did “Seven Steps to Start Investing as a Graduate Student or Postdoc,” and later in the summer we’ll do “Your Financial Orientation to Graduate School” and “Tax Season Preparation Starts Now for Graduate Students” and possibly more. If you’re not currently on my mailing list but want to receive notice about the upcoming pilot sessions once they are scheduled, please join now! The best way to get on the mailing list as a podcast listener is to sign up through PFforPhDs.com/advice/; you’ll receive a document that summarizes all of my interviewees’ responses regarding their best financial advice. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s18e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Cyrus Liu.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:56): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Cyrus Liu. He’s currently a postdoctoral fellow in computer science at Grinnell College, and we are going to be talking about his fascinating financial journey, um, as a graduate student and now a postdoc in the US as an international student. And so, Cyrus, I’m so happy that you’ve decided to join me on the podcast today, and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

Cyrus (03:19): Yes. Hi, Emily. Thank you for having me here. So I graduated in December, 2022 from computer science degree. Um, after that I landed this, uh, postdoc, um, fellow in computer science. And the current position, I’m do- mostly doing research in the area of programming languages and security.

Money Mindset After Arriving in the US

Emily (03:45): Excellent. So let’s go kind of all the way back to when you first arrived in the US. I assume that was at the start of graduate school, but you can correct me if that’s wrong. Um, tell me like about what your money mindset was at that point and how, if at all, how familiar you were with the US financial system.

Cyrus (04:01): Also, this is my first time before I come to US. It’s actually, I’ve never been to us before my PhD and I’m from China, so I grew up in a poor family, in fact, there. So with that in mind that I’m kind of sort of inherently frugal. But what’s interesting is back then, like I never feel poor in terms of any financials. In general, I have no idea about in credit card scores, uh, credit cards and investing or retirement. And, and that’s later on. I discovered after I entered the US that I do have, uh, a saving and spending mindfully and because how my parents raised me. Right.

Grad School Stipend vs. Local Cost of Living

Emily (04:50): I see. And so when you arrived for, um, graduate school here, can you tell me about, um, what your stipend was and how that struck you, maybe versus like the local cost of living?

Cyrus (05:02): I was living in Hoboken for, um, two years and a half, and also Stevens Institute with the university. I finished my PhD is located in this really beautiful city and it, it is, the local cost is like 60% higher than the national average. I would just say and put in the number that means like I think if you got two bedroom apartments that you might need to spend, um, at least 1700 for one bedroom, that means you need a a roommate. And back then the stipends, uh, I would say it’s like a 28 thousandish and it’s roughly, I remember we got paid like a biweekly, it’s like 2000 a hundred per month after tax.

Increasing Income During Grad School

Emily (05:55): Okay. Well, I really wanna dig into this, uh, with that, you know, relatively expensive cost of living and the relatively low stipend. Um, and the listeners don’t know yet, but this is a financial success story that we’re about to talk about <laugh>. So we’re gonna see how, you know, I wanted to see that starting point and now let’s see how you got to the end point that you got to. Um, so let’s kind of break this down, um, systematically. So during the course of your time in graduate school, how did you, what did you do to increase your income?

Cyrus (06:24): Yeah, so there are a couple things. Um, like I said that before I entering, uh, US, I have, I really have no idea what’s the, uh, um, investment, investment investing or credit cards, and that’s a totally different systems, but I do have a mindset that I need to save, right? And it is how I grew up. Um, but it’s not too much. So most of the case, um, I start to reaching out, um, all the resources I can, I, I think I start with reading the book first and then also I love reading. And then the first book I get to know is basically, uh, it is called I Will Teach Rich by the Ramit. And, and he, he actually kind of introduced me to the whole US financial system from credit card, from the, uh, uh, Roth IRA and then how you would you, uh, increase, uh, your finance and manage your, your spending habits and to how would you invest if you have extra money, even though if you don’t have extra money, just put maybe one, uh, 100 or $50 you can squeeze out. Just experience how things work. Uh, at the beginning it was a little bit overwhelming, but I, I enjoyed read his book. I I think this is also helps me to manage my life, uh, here in a completely, uh, foreign nation. Right?

Emily (08:04): Yeah, that’s a wonderful first book to get started with. I will teach you to be rich by Ramit Sethi. Um, yeah, great, great introduction. He’s very firm about how to tell if someone, someone, you know, an institution is trying to take advantage of you. Like he’s really helping you, like recognize that and push back against it. So I can definitely see how that would be useful when you’re entering a new system, um, entirely. So awesome recommendation, you started there, you read that book,

Cyrus (08:28): And then I start to act <laugh>.

Emily (08:31): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Cyrus (08:31): And then I open the credit card and then I, I, I take the, the same strategy that I recommended by the, by the book. It, it’s not promotion for the book, but it’s more like, I think around nothing to think of that it is really like you try to minimize all the possible interest, right? Rates I would have and then, or a lot of promotions provided by the credit card and then try to take advantage of that because now we think about that credit cards more like the more you expense and then the more you can potentially save and also they encourage you to spend. So, but I personally very mindful with my expense, but the same times I think they do, credit cards do offer a lot of discounts in terms of purchasing. So that’s the first step.

Emily (09:24): So are you saying that you pursued credit card rewards, like points and cash back and stuff after? Of course, you initially need to establish credit and get started there.

Cyrus (09:32): Yes, exactly.

Emily (09:32): But is that where this led eventually?

Cyrus (09:34): The, the signing bonus and also the cashback reward, that’s also something new to me that I never did, uh, touch before. And then also we do have, uh, I think the first one is the discovery. I think most of international students would get to discovery first because we don’t have any, uh, credit score history here. And so they also have these online stores that will give you 10% or 5% discount. And then when I go out to buy clothes in, or I was living in New York City area, so there’s a lot of department store that can use with this discount opportunities.

Emily (10:16): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. Okay. So both increasing income through credit card, um, bonuses and cash back and so forth. Also finding a way to be even more frugal in saving certain percent, percentages on the purchases that you do make.

Cyrus (10:28): After that, um, uh, I started to opening a investment account that was also a little bit struggling because I, first of all, as an international student, I do not know if I was allowed to do that. So I, that’s kind of for research myself. But in the end, after like, um, as long as we are considering as a tax payer resident, and then, so you should have the same opportunity to open all those investment account. And then I, I remembered I started with, uh, uh, 500 ish, um, over the month for the first month. So I just put, I think I, I, I was not expecting to gain anything. I just, uh, put 500 to get to understanding, uh, how the investments work and buying individual stocks. And I think I bought, that was 2018. I bought a Tesla <laugh> because I really like, uh, Elon Musk.

Cyrus (11:30): Um, but that was another story. It was really funny. And so that’s one part. And then, uh, after that, uh, I get to know the, Roth IRA and then the retirement account. Um, it’s also be, uh, I, I get to understand how the tax work here and then the tax deferred account. And I think that’s whether in long term if, uh, I am staying here or not. I, for me, it’s like, I think it’s, uh, uh, beneficial to open this account as soon as possible because I do pay a lot of taxes. I mean, it’s, uh, in terms of graduate students. Uh, so I think, uh, that’s one way you should take benefit of that. And then I did that, but um, although I didn’t have much money to put on that, and then, uh, in the end, I would, my, my goal was, uh, try to save like, uh, 500 and put into other way to the Roth IRA or the personal, um, uh, investment brokerage and yeah. But this all comes with the risk. So with the mind that you, the money you put in, in the investment account, like it’s possible to lose all of them. Right. But I was fine with that.

Contributing to a Retirement Account as an International Student

Emily (12:47): Couple things there, uh, because I get so many questions from international students and postdocs, um, yeah, maybe they know, they, you know, in theory could contribute money to a Roth ira for example. They, they understand the eligibility, but they’re more questioning like, is this a good idea? And it sounds like you came down on Yep. As soon as possible, whether I end up in the US long term or not, this is a good idea. Can you tell us a little bit more about that thought process and how you made that decision?

Cyrus (13:15): Uh, I think that this decision is very personal for me. Um, because that, that’s all really depends, um, where you going to stay, where are you going to retire in, in the future, right? Um, for me, I didn’t really think that too long. Um, I can in, in the long run, I, I prefer this. I might not stay in United States. Uh, but, uh, I, but uh, for me, you, you got to understand what, what, what’s your, uh, long-term goal. Uh, if you are not going to come back to us at all, or even this is the case, but it is still helpful that because, uh, you are kind of tax deferred assuming you grow your money over there, right? Um, and it just take some penalties if you break the, the rules that you’re taking out the money before your retirement age. But if you can stand with that, it is nothing comparing that if you in your future that you might want to settle down in US or you go want you coming back in us in a later life, it, it, it, it can benefit you a lot, but without risk balance you got assessment, what’s your goal, it is. And then for me, I would like to take that even though maybe a few years I have to, uh, uh, leave or, or for, or I have to withdraw the money, but I need to take a 20% or I don’t know exactly number the penalty for that.

Emily (14:53): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, yeah, if I’m remembering correctly, it’s, I think it’s only 10% and it’s only on the gains. And if we’re talking about the Roth IRA, right, because you can withdraw the contribution. So it’s, as you said, you know, there’s a, um, a, a risk there in a sense. Okay, well maybe I will need to remove this money early for some reason. Well, this is the penalty. Am I willing to accept that? Do you know, I’m, and the penalty again, is only on the growth. So it’s only if, yeah, if there things have actually gone well with that investment account, um, in the intervening years. So thank you for giving us a little bit more insight there.

Investing as a Graduate Student

Emily (15:24): And then I also wanted to ask about the taxable brokerage account. Um, you mentioned you bought Tesla. Yeah. Were you, um, cashing out, like making trades and actually taking income from this money over the years? Or is it more been like just sitting there for like, for the long term and you’re not taking income from it?

Cyrus (15:40): So for me, it’s more like a, um, a personal habit. Like, um, uh, I do, I don’t, I didn’t, I did not have much money to invest, and I think I was just bought two or three, few five shares of Tesla, but in 2018, and, but after that, Tesla was like a, like a high rocket, and I do, I did sold a couple share, but those number I really like comparing it, it’s not much. And so no, it, it, it’s more like, uh, a habit. That one is a habit. The another one is I, I did not really have much extra money to invest in this account.

Emily (16:24): Yeah. And I, you said the number of $500 earlier, was that your, was it your goal to invest $500 per month or is that over a different period of time?

Cyrus (16:32): Uh, yeah, I was, uh, uh, a month.

Minimizing Expenses as a Graduate Student

Emily (16:34): Let’s talk about keeping a lid on expenses or decreasing expenses then, because we’ve already heard that the cost of living is very challenging on your grad student stipend. So you already mentioned having multiple roommates. I think you said you were sharing a bedroom, right? So like maybe four people in a two bedroom apartment, is that right?

Cyrus (16:49): Um, um, no, that, that was like, uh, we do have five bedrooms in, uh, a big house, but we, we have our own bedroom. But the things like, uh, in that case we did cutting down a lot of expenses. We share everything.

Emily (17:05): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. Okay. So kind of the, the frugal tip there is like larger residents, more roommates, more people to split everything among, right?

Cyrus (17:15): Yeah. Not many PhD students actually live in Hoboken. I was lucky to find this place. Uh, but the same times, like I personally, I don’t think roommates are bad. And because I, I get a chance to know different people and, uh, in my case, uh, there’s a, a little, uh, uh, that, but I can stand with because we do sharing, uh, things, uh, and then sometimes can getting busy, but most of the case are fine with that. So we, I have four other roommates, but they are working in a different area. So basically we would have a different schedule. So in this case, uh, it’s doable and especially, uh, given the resources I have, I don’t commute that much. And then I enjoy in the on campus resource, I like to do it to gym. So it’s like a 10 minutes away from my, uh, my, my lab and then also the, to the gym. So the, I spend most of the time in the lab. And then after that, I go to the gym really just, uh, over the night, come back. And then sometimes we have the good parties, you have roommates, and you can have some little party on the weekends and watch a movie together. That was pretty nice.

Emily (18:30): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I actually really like the setup of a single family home that’s shared among multiple different, multiple, you know, people at their own bedrooms. I feel like that’s a pretty, in most areas of the country, that’s a pretty economical way to live if that type of housing is available to you as opposed to like the apartments or, you know, the townhouses or whatever. Yeah. Um, yeah. So what other ways did you find to decrease or minimize your expenses?

Cyrus (18:55): So at the same time, um, we, we do have, uh, uh, so I try to, uh, take a break from my research sometimes. And another way is like, um, travel. When, when it comes to travel, um, I prefer to go with my friends or in a group, and in, in generally I do meal prep. I do, uh, regularly do, uh, exercise and eat healthy. Um, the meal prep myself, it’s also cost less. So I think it is a, it is beneficial in two ways. Um, also in long run, I do value work workout regularly and keep your mental health checked. This would’ve, uh, stopped me going to hospital that often. Like I remember when the seasoning transitions during the transition seasonings and you catch flu isn’t sometimes it’s not just going to the hospital suffering. It’s more like you take at least one week to recover and then you get behind with my research and then that kind of padding up. It’s a lot of stress. So I, I, I wouldn’t, so I, I realized that like, and I, the good way is like take, do more exercise and then to, to keep your immune system robust, <laugh> against that. Um, another thing is like, it, it’s very funny, like when we pay in taxes, right? We, we considering as a, a tax resident. And, uh, but at the same time, I really appreciate my student id. I was living in New York City area and then using student id, you got a lot of free, uh, tickets and also discount tickets to the art gallery and museums and, and gardens. So although I, I, I was, uh, frugal, but I didn’t miss out any fun things over there. I, I still go to museums, gardens, and sometimes, uh, uh, uh, meetups and, and, and local, uh, parties. I, I was, was really fun. And it didn’t really cost you much.

Emily (21:10): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So your entertainment was also satisfactory to you, but you found a way to do it in a frugal manner.

Cyrus (21:16): Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (21:18): Anything else on your list of, of expenses that you managed to minimize?

Cyrus (21:22): I don’t drive, right? So it is also, I was living in the city. It’s really, uh, so those expenses not really, uh, a thing for me. I personally, I do not really purchase too much clothing for me. I’m very minimal. Like, uh, as long I have, uh, uh, a clean fit clothing, that’s enough for me. And for shoes, like, uh, I don’t like to switch too much, and also maybe I have two or three, two, uh, three pair of shoes that one for winter and one or two I can switch during the summer or something like that. So, uh, wearing the things like to the, to the most, um, I think this is preco- probably also because the way that I, how I raised that I am fine with that. And I think that’s kind of, uh, one part, uh, that can cut off the cost in my case.

Emily (22:26): Yeah, definitely.

Commercial

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Increasing Social Wealth

Emily (23:56): Is there anything else that you would like to add about overall how you increased your net worth during graduate school? We talked about investing in the Roth, IRA and also in the taxable brokerage account. Anything else in that category?

Cyrus (24:09): Uh, I think one thing that is more intangible, the the wealth and the finance that, uh, the, it is kind of the, the social wealth, the, which I, I, I, I was not really proud of that, um, and try to, uh, take advantage of the local resources, right? And then I was lucky to live in New York City area, and then that’s, and also Hoboken locally and is very nice community, but I think no matter where you live, the local community more often, have more resources that you can imagine and you might not be aware, just try to reach out. And for example, I was attending almost like every weekend I go out and then join the meetup and conference, and most of, of the time they provide you these free meals, lunch or dinner, and then it, it, it’s a, it’s a nice way you can social and also you don’t need to cook your meal yourself. So these things are very subtle and the same things happening on campus that, um, in, in your department, uh, no matter which major you are, um, try to join the, uh, the, if you have any habit, right, join the club and then your peers, and those are most likely have this, uh, social events that can help you, uh, to reduce sometimes if you don’t want to cook or for breakfast meal. And then those are all great ways to, to do

Emily (25:59): Classic grad student strategy. Um, but I like that your focus here and kind of your spin on it is both like, yeah, you can get some free meals from time to time, but also you get, you get your entertainment and your social interaction. Um, and so it fills your, your calendar and helps you again with your work life balance and your wellness overall. And I like that you mentioned not just doing this on campus, but in the community too. And the thing is that if people are putting on events and they’re giving food and all those things, they really want you there. They really want people to come. So like you’re also, you know, you’re contributing to their community as well.

Cyrus (26:32): Yeah. Yeah. I, I think, um, one of the things not just about the meals, and another thing is about the, the, the social wealth. I would say it’s all, uh, it’s also the concept I learned from the books that, uh, it’s more how would you connect to the people? And then that was, uh, kind of potentially, and the connection may or may not be lead you to in the future when you are in the job market, you could have used these connections, but, uh, I wouldn’t say put this in more like a transactional way, but you should try genuinely more just enjoying the life. But at the same times, you might not realize by doing that, you kind of gain the social wealth.

Freedom as the Ultimate Goal

Emily (27:20): You were obviously putting in a lot of effort with your finances, right? All the things we went through, ways that you keep your lifestyle to a minimum ways you figured out how to increase your income, you know, self-education, and then that turned into more investing and so forth. Um, why, why weren’t you just satisfied with getting by day to day and saving all of that for after you finish graduate school?

Cyrus (27:45): I, I think that’s awesome. One role of the reason is due to my personality, I guess. Um, I think the, the ultimate goal is the freedom to achieve the freedom and to be confident. W- with the any decisions I’m going to make. So I would like to, we are talking about freedom and confidence. It’s more like in the sense that I was, I can make decisions based on my own personal demand, not really subject to any resources surrounding me, right? Like, like I said, like before I entering us, I never felt I’m, I’m poor <laugh> because I don’t really have, have much need and I was spending most of my life and time with school. And then after you explore the world, I have this dream, and then now the time’s moving on, and then I start to realize that I really, it’s not what you think, like ideas are great, but you have these obstacles that related to this, uh, money topic, and then you actually making decisions based on what the resources are available for you. So the final goal, then I would start to thinking like, yeah, this comes so natural, you save more, but saving is just one of those strategies. So, and then that’s why I end up start to find out the other opportunities and yeah. So I, I would say the ultimate goal is to be freedom.

Emily (29:30): Do you feel like, you know, you are, I don’t know, five, six or so years into this now, um, do you feel like you’ve attained that to a degree? Obviously you’re not, maybe, you know, complete financial independence is still, still some time away, but, um, I guess I’m, I’m wondering about, yeah, like does it feel like you are a percentage ways, like towards that at this point?

Cyrus (29:53): Uh, in terms of the net worth, obvious, No, that is a far away, but I think in terms of mindset and the knowledge, and then I am preparing myself and then I’m being mindful with my personal life. It’s called personal finance, right? And then you, I i, I was now I’m able to figuring out in the big picture and then what’s the come in flow, what’s the outflow? And I’m, I’m very mindful of that. And then in the end, it, it’s really also, it’s another pro- a question for myself. Do I really want to be retired early or not, or, so the, the, the, the freedom for me is in a more, in a wider definition that it’s more about the resource management and the organize myself, and it, it, it, it includes material and, but also my mind. I think this kind of, uh, uh, knowledge and skills over these past five to six years that I develop, it’s very helpful. Um, in the long term. I, I think if I stick to that and then keep this growth mindset and in the future, the net worth is just a number, whether you choose retire 40 at 40 or 50 a a it is, can is this is the freedom that I, I’m talking about. I can decide, doesn’t matter if, if I have to work or not, right?

Emily (31:33): Absolutely. I love that. Thank you much for pointing that out. I similarly, I think I came to this similar kinds of reflections after I had finished graduate school, after I’d been on that path for a few years, like recognizing how, um, having not only some money in terms of the net worth, but also those mindsets and the habits and the skills and everything that it took to start down that path really afforded me more, uh, choices even at that relatively early stage, um, in life. So thank you so much for sharing that. Exactly.

Personal Finance Resources for Grad Students

Emily (32:07): Um, do you have any additional resources that you’d like to recommend, either to specifically the international graduate student population or maybe graduate students and postdocs more widely? I mean, your first recommendation, I will teach you to be rich by Ramit Sethi was an excellent one. Were there any other books or I don’t know, podcasts or YouTube channels or anything else that you, uh, that you felt was really helpful along the way?

Cyrus (32:27): Yeah, I think, um, so I, I think books are really, uh, good to start with. And in terms of which books you should read, uh, um, uh, I would recommend if you use Reddit, and that there’s a personal finance Reddit channel, uh, you can join that one. There’s a lot of resources about personal finance and what books you’re getting started. And if you like a podcast, and I think this one is very nice since, uh, at the beginning I, I couldn’t find much resources. That’s also how I get to know this podcast. And I was very excited that actually someone thanks to you <laugh>, um, so you, you, you can get, keep get informed to make a good decision, right? Um, and this, uh, this, this is, uh, complete within your reach if you want to do that. And then I would suggest you do that.

Cyrus (33:28): And in terms of, uh, um, tangible resources, be mindful for the, uh, reach out to your university resources. Like, um, especially I was using this, uh, psycho, uh, psychological services therapy and be open-minded. And for those like, um, we are PhD students, we are graduate students, and then it’s can definitely be very lonely. And then even you are in a relationship, so, and those resources are really just find somewhere to talk. And this I think is the part that can easily be ignored by the students, especially international students thinking I’m really, because I’m alien here and then I feel constrained. But actually, uh, uh, in us, you can definitely, especially in your university, you have a lot of resources, uh, uh, to help you out. And then when you graduated, and actually the careers, uh, service is also very helpful, but you need to know that and you need to reach out for yourself.

Cyrus (34:41): And in terms of local community, no matter where you live, try to find a city. And what I did is like get engaged with the locals and I like running and then I go to 5K races. So those are, you can, um, reach out without any cost, right? And also you can, uh, remain your, uh, healthy mind, mind, uh, mental health. So yeah, I, I think overall just be open-minded. We are living in this, uh, information liberal age is really, you don’t feel missing out, and then you have the access to other information you can figure out yourself. And what’s, one thing I, I learned is, um, what makes you, uh, anxious is mostly the things that you actually didn’t do right? And then if you act on it, it, it, it doesn’t matter how challenging the, the things itself, and then you will be fine. But sitting there <laugh> doing nothing, that that’s the big problem.

Emily (35:54): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, I’ve absolutely seen that in, I mean, it, it applies widely, but certainly in the case of finances, um, it’s better to just face it and engage. Yeah. And try something. Um, yeah, instead of, as you said, kind of avoiding or spending a long time in analysis paralysis, not sure which direction you should go, just try something. And you’ve tried a lot of things and I love that we got through all of that in this interview.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (36:16): Let’s wrap up with our last question that I ask all of my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

Cyrus (36:28): Yeah, so, um, I think everyone has a very unique experience, uh, in terms of giving. Otherwise, I would just say I wish what I have done or done more to in my PhD. Um, so one thing I think, like I mentioned couple times, um, value social wealth. And that means that, uh, try to, uh, go out and in, in your spare time, sometimes you might think you don’t have time, especially as a PhD student. And, but I tried, I have the similar mindset, uh, at a certain amount of time. But the thing is like you stick in the lab and the home, you might, you become less productive and then it might take more time than comparing that you just go out and do some activities and then come back with, uh, more energy and fresh mind. So this is the thing that I, I think I did, uh, less, uh, whether it, if you are in a relationship or not, it is the similar thing sometimes, like go out with friends and, and to the meetups and or more importantly, um, it’s also more, uh, career wise or professionally. Like we, we as a graduate student, we don’t really have money to give out, but the same, uh, idea applies. The more you give the, the, the, the, the better. So, but as a scholar, that means that volunteer to giving talks in the meetups, workshops, seminars in your neighboring institutions, I think, uh, don’t underestimate yourself because you are a PhD student and you definitely have the knowledge base and then sharing those knowledge with the community, and you are passing to the knowledge. This is the wealth we possess, right? Normally people think we are poor, but actually, um, a wider definition of the wealth here, we have this part to share with someone else. And then the same times you will get rewarding back, right? Because you, you go out and people get your idea, you get a chance to talk about your research, and the same times you build this genuine connections with the community, and in the future, this connections might help you to navigate your, your future career path.

Cyrus (38:58): So this is the thing that I, I think I missed out a lot also because we was in the covid times, and that’s really dark age. Um, on the other side, as I, I would like to share is I think what I did to contribute the success of my PhD is one thing is really be open-minded. I considering myself a very open-minded person, I, I, at the same time, very minimal for me. And then, but I do exercise more and then, and try new things at the beginning. All those investment accounts really scares me because every time I open the account, that’s a whole for legal documents I have to read. And I, as an international, I’m concerned that I fly-, am I breaking the law or something like that. But if, if you are looking into it and it’s really not that scary, right?

Cyrus (39:56): So I think, I think I, I stand with myself and then I, I try all those things. And then the, the, the, the idea is you need to realize that if you don’t do that, and it’s actually you are paying that, you are not doing that, right? Because the inflations and the interest rates, rates all the things that you have to, you kind of, everyone should open their investment account and, and, and do the investment and manage that to beat the, at least the inflation. So another thing I think I value, uh, more is the people itself, whether it be your significant others or friends. I do valuable value those things. Um, uh, that means that if, if there’s a chance I can spend more time with my friends, like, uh, we go out for a nice, a night, a fancy dinner. Sometimes we go out for, to New York, Manhattan to try different restaurants. I, I, I, I really not at that moment, I value more with the time with my friends. And even though the meal is expensive sometimes, I remember one time we spent almost a hundred each of us for one meal <laugh> was like, but I think that was really, uh, um, uh, valuable for me.

Emily (41:15): Yeah, so insightful. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. Thank you for this entire interview Cyrus, for volunteering to come on the podcast. Um, it’s been absolute pleasure to have you.

Cyrus (41:24): Thank you. And thank you for having me and it is great to sharing the stories with everyone. Thank you so much.

Outtro

Emily (41:41): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This Life Sciences PhD Fosters Entrepreneurship

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Marquicia Pierce, who holds a PhD in molecular physiology and biophysics from Vanderbilt University and an MBA from Northwood University. In the ten years since finishing her PhD, Marquicia has worked in various capacities to foster life science start-ups and small businesses, and she is now the owner and principal consultant for Ruby Leaf Media, a science communication company for people who want to turn their tech story into a business story. Marquicia recounts the courses and projects she pursued during graduate school that set her up for her post-PhD career and how she balanced her advisor and committee’s expectations with her career ambitions. She also details the multitude of government, academic, and private sector resources that are available to founders and inventors and the skills and mindsets that a PhD can bring to entrepreneurship.

Links mentioned in the Episode

How This Life Sciences PhD Fosters Entrepreneurship

Teaser

Marquicia (00:00): Get in a great habit of, um, not only just looking at the numbers, but what is the story behind the numbers? If I was to say, have a narrative around this, what did, what did it mean? And it’ll help you uncover what your priorities are. Something that’s not working. Like I, I spent so much money on this, but I don’t know if it’s really working. You’re kind of already gut checking and doing like an audit, if you will.

Introduction

Emily (00:31): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:00): This is Season 18, Episode 1, and today my guest is Dr. Marquicia Pierce, who holds a PhD in molecular physiology and biophysics from Vanderbilt University and an MBA from Northwood University. In the ten years since finishing her PhD, Marquicia has worked in various capacities to foster life science start-ups and small businesses, and she is now the owner and principal consultant for Ruby Leaf Media, a science communication company for people who want to turn their tech story into a business story. Marquicia recounts the courses and projects she pursued during graduate school that set her up for her post-PhD career and how she balanced her advisor and committee’s expectations with her career ambitions. She also details the multitude of government, academic, and private sector resources that are available to founders and inventors and the skills and mindsets that a PhD can bring to entrepreneurship.

Emily (01:52): I’m looking for a couple more interviewees to round out Season 18 of this podcast! If it’s been in the back of your mind to do so, this is your official invitation to please volunteer to be interviewed. I love that on this podcast I get to feature PhDs and PhDs-to-be who are almost exclusively regular people and learn and share their real-life stories and strategies. Please go to PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ and fill out the quick form, and I’ll be in touch over email. I look forward to interviewing you in the coming months! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s18e1/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Marquicia Pierce of Ruby Leaf Media.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:51): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Marquicia Pierce of Ruby Leaf Media, she’s the owner there. And Ruby Leaf Media, as she described to me, is a science communication company for people who want to turn their tech story into a business story. And just in our pre-interview chat that Marquicia and I had, it was so fascinating to hear about her career journey. I know you’re gonna get a lot from this as well. So, Marquicia, welcome to the podcast. Would you please introduce yourself and your company for our listeners?

Marquicia (03:18): Thank you so much, Emily, for having me. This is such a great opportunity, um, just to chat, sit down and chat with you. You’ve been providing such great valuable resources for, uh, a lot of my colleagues, so I appreciate the opportunity. Um, so yes, so my name is, um, Dr. Marquicia Pierce. I am a life scientist by training. My, uh, training was in molecular physiology and biophysics. And, uh, ever since my time in the lab, I, I found that I really enjoyed being able to take those concepts from the lab and bring them out to the community. So, um, as we’ll get into, uh, some of the, the context here, um, my background includes, um, being a military brat who, who knows that community can be, uh, made and you have an obligation to, to bring something to that community. And so, um, I’ve just been able to fortunately, have been able to do that for a lot of different, uh, high tech companies that are started by PhDs and they’re trying to cross over from the lab to, uh, bringing value to, to their community, wherever that is.

Experiences During Grad School That Went Beyond Basic Research

Emily (04:20): And this is gonna be a really fascinating interview, um, on just all the opportunities there are in front of graduate students and PhDs for doing just that, for, um, advancing their careers and translating their work. And this is gonna be amazing, but I wanna hear more about your kind of personal journey as well. So going back to graduate school, can you tell us a little bit about like the, um, the things you did that were above and beyond just your basic, basic, you know, research as a graduate student that were like side hustles or like, like extra projects that you did just experience that you gained that helped you, that helped you along in your career path?

Marquicia (04:54): Absolutely. I love this question. Um, so I did my PhD at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. And during that time, I knew two things for certain. I knew I wanted to incorporate some type of business into what I was, um, what I, what I was studying at the time. I was looking at how vitamin C moves in the brain, uh, on a molecular level. We were looking at different proteins that made that po- possible, if there were any, uh, phenotypes or if there’s any characteristics when you didn’t have these nutrition, um, in your, in your diet. And I love that I could connect that to and translate that to my family, like, Hey, if you don’t eat these particular nutrition, these things might happen. Um, and, uh, I remember very specifically, my, my grandmother had major symptoms of diabetes during the time that I was, um, getting my graduate program, uh, completed. And I distinctly remember one day thinking through, I know down to the molecular level what’s happening with her symptoms and her disease progression, what would happen. But I feel so useless and helpless ’cause I don’t know if there’s a particular innovation or something that could, that could help. And that I think that kind of solidified for me that there has to be a way to take what we’re learning and translate. Um, many people have done that, but that’s when it clicked for me. And so, um, I knew I wanted to incorporate business. Uh, I wanted to get an MBA, but at the time, there wasn’t really a great place to insert that into my, my program. So I ended up, um, auditing engineering, a lot of engineering management courses in the undergrad engineer engineering school, and being able to work with them on their marketing, their tech management courses.

Marquicia (06:39): Uh, I was able to be involved with one of their capstone day for seniors where they were, um, trying to put together a research project, um, around a particular technology. We were working with a small businesses in the ecosystem. Um, uh, I had a fantastic member, uh, mentor around that, Dr. John Beers who, who facilitated that connection. And so in the lab we were doing what we needed to do, but I was auditing courses, um, around that particular thing. I was involved with, uh, tech, tech Venture Challenge where we were tasked with we being other students from the medical school, the graduate school, the law school, the business school. We were all trying to get behind a particular Vanderbilt, um, or small business in Nashville invention and make a case for this could be a business that could be sustainable and provide value to the community. Um, those are, those are things that I think were pivotal to add on. You always wanna have science plus something that you, you, uh, enjoy. And also like creative graphic design types of things. So I was, uh, a lot of those art science, um, classes as well. Uh, but yeah, definitely had a lot of projects while I was getting my PhD that helped spark that fodder, if you will, for, you know, what do I do after I get my PhD.

Entrepreneurial Opportunities for Grad Students

Emily (08:02): And in your, outside of just your own personal experience in graduate school, can you think of other like, types of opportunities that graduate students might encounter that would provide similar benefits?

Marquicia (08:13): Sure. So, um, a lot of the student competitions are a great place to start. If you just want to, to dip your, your foot in. How do I work with other interdisciplinary teams, law students, business students on a project? These could be anything from a hackathon to, uh, which, you know, you spend a weekend trying to figure out a business proposal to, um, auditing a course that even, even though they’re undergraduates, that’s, that’s a great opportunity to kind of bring in some of those concepts that are complementary to your PhD. Um, we had a, we had a, uh, academic alliance that was between, uh, Vanderbilt and the entrepreneur community as a whole that, um, it was called Life Science, Tennessee Academic Alliance, where you could get involved as a, a mentor or you could, you can bring in speakers to your, your class. You could, uh, host this tech venture challenge.

Marquicia (09:08): Um, those are great opportunities if you just wanna see if that, that opportunity is for you. Um, a lot of, a lot of times now that was, that was 10 years ago, uh, I’m seeing a lot more, uh, fellowships or courses that you can take while you’re doing your, your, your PhD that will incorporate, Hey, here’s a small business proposal, a market research, um, uh, project, uh, at, at in Michigan, there is a group called My Lead. It is graduate students, postdoc students that do just that. They work as a small boutique consulting agency where they put together, uh, a market research plan. They dig into the de the details and the data both on the science side and the business side and be, and are able to work with other companies in that way. So, um, those smaller projects, six, three to six months or a semester long, uh, is a, is a great way to kind of get your feet feet wet. With that.

Pushback For Participating in Activities Outside of the Lab

Emily (10:05): I’m wondering, um, did you encounter any cultural in terms of, uh, the field that you’re in, the life sciences, any, uh, pushback to you participating in these outside of the lab activities? I’ve just noticed that the life sciences, um, among the STEM fields would probably be the most resistant, um, to those kinds of things. But it sounds like Vanderbilt itself was pretty well set up to facilitate this. I’m just wondering what your observations were around that sort of like, culture of do we engage with business, do we engage with startups, like from, you know, the research side of things?

Marquicia (10:41): That’s a great question. So I know that there were, there were parts of, um, the community that really was open to, you know, there’s, there’s opportunities to kind of engage in these particular ways. We very often had that same conversation, like, how, how much do I say? I don’t want to necessarily, um, have an update about this in my committee meeting, uh, <laugh>. It could very well in that particular case be, um, seen as a distraction. You know, you’re, you’re here for getting your graduate studies done, you stay in the lab, especially if things aren’t working, it’s very hard to justify, you know, um, yeah, well, I won’t be able to work on it, you know, I’m, I’m trying to do this particular class. Um, I think that’s why auditing the class was really helpful. And, um, uh, the way Vanderbilt was set up, it was, uh, their IGP or the interdisciplinary program was very used to these different departments had courses that was as attached to it that we were, depending on our specific route, able to go to.

Marquicia (11:47): Um, and so there was a little bit more set up for if you wanna audit a class, um, we can, we could help that. But I still have to get permission through the graduate school to audit an undergrad class. And that included a conversation with my PI and my director of graduate studies who very, at the beginning, very naively, I said, you know, Hey, I, I think I would like to get my MBA. They were really open to, that’s a, that’s a great thought, uh, in theory, <laugh>, you know, but not necessarily having a pathway for to, to that happen. But yeah, it was very much, uh, I felt like I’m living two lives, and if, if you’re going over to the dark side of consulting or industry or management of, uh, investment banking, something that in, in included that, it was, it was kind of, um, you have to be very careful and impactful of how, how you were able to ex explain that. Um, you know, this is a class that I’m taking, it will be over at this particular time, uh, for one of the projects, uh, as intern, I have to say, well, I, I would be willing to take a pay decrease because I’m not, I’m not putting in the same amount of hours per week. So it, there were, and whether or not that that’s discouraged or encouraged, um, especially if you’re going on year six, six of your PhD, it, those can be very awkward <laugh> conversations, to say the least.

Resources for Academics Who Want to Start a Business

Emily (13:09): Well, thank you so much for sharing kind of your experience in that area. I hope it’s, I hope it’s encouraging to people who are facing similar like questions of, it’s, it’s worth pushing it through. It’s worth having these conversations. Maybe you don’t need to tell them everything that’s going, you know, tell them what they need to know, but, you know, get your work done and, and still, because these, these, these extra quote unquote experiences are the ones that are the most valuable for your career. I, I would say, we’ll see in your own story how this, um, develops. So can you say anything more about, um, the, the resources that are available for, let’s say, graduate students or postdocs or people who are still associated with academia who want to start a business, how, how the, how academia can be set up to help them do that. Um, and what are like the pros and cons of accessing those resources?

Marquicia (13:54): That’s a really good question. Um, if you are in academia, you do have a lot of resources that say if you were not, and you were trying to get something, uh, into, into the marketplace on your own that you might not be aware of. So first of all, if you’re a student or a faculty member, um, the things that you would want to be on the lookout for is if there are any, uh, connections you have with your tech transfer office. Because first and foremost, you’ve probably signed some contract or you have something spelled out with your, your place of employment that any intellectual property or even idea or anything that you work on is, is owned by the university point blank period. So you’re, the process for being able to, um, if, if it’s connected with your research, bring that into a business, they, they have a process for doing that.

Marquicia (14:47): They usually, the tech transfer office will, will, uh, facilitate. Um, it includes, Hey, I have this idea. It is just here, I’m disclosing it to you. I haven’t formed a company. I have this idea. It’s, it’s outside of my research scope. What information or what types of resources do you have, uh, for, for this particular setup? Um, at Michigan State University where I did my postdoc, there was actually a research foundation that, um, helped if you were a student, a faculty member, or even a staff person that was at, at the, OR alumni that was affiliated with the university, and you want to start a company, they were there for you to provide resources like, uh, entrepreneur and residents would be a person who’s gone through that process. They will help you build out a business plan, build out your value proposition, which basically says, how do I, how do I make a business that creates value for other people?

Marquicia (15:39): How do I monetize it and sustain it? There will also be your guide for, here’s some state resources, here’s some academic resources in terms of money <laugh> to fund either other students, undergraduates or postdocs that can help you work through this idea. And they will actually be the, um, work in tandem with the tech transfer office, um, to say, Hey, this, this is related. This could be something that we would need the university to continue to help fund the research for think medical devices, therapeutics, um, things that it takes a university and maybe a team to research. They, they work together. Anything that has to do with clinical trials, you would have to need, you would have to use a village <laugh> that, that EIR or the entrepreneur residents can help guide you through. Um, so there’s academic ins, uh, resources, so tech transfer office, student entrepreneurship groups.

Marquicia (16:36): Um, I’ve had a lot of students that I’ve worked with that are working with a family company, they’ve been able to go through with their student, um, business groups, the, the business schools there. They have pitch competitions that give very real money, 10, $20,000 sometimes. And then also connections around that. How do you get your marketing out, your packaging, your, um, your, your story for pitching to other investors? Hey, you have this food company, Hey, you have this idea. Who in your alumni network can help bring some of, uh, some insights to this? So there’s, there’s resources there, uh, at the school. And then in the, um, community, you have, um, state resources that wanna see particularly life science, high tech innovations, push their economy forward. So there’s grants on that particular side for, uh, if you’re just in this particular region working on a high, high tech, high growth company, scalable company, which a lot of life science companies are, um, here’s what we can offer to you.

Marquicia (17:38): Here’s the connections, market research, um, legal consultants, regulatory consultants, um, how do you put together a website? Those are, those are resources that are available on that end. And then one last thing, I know I need to be brief, brief about this. There are, uh, government particular, uh, outside of the different accelerate accelerators for those things, there are government funding. It’s called, uh, small Business Innovation research, or S-B-I-R-S-T-T-R grants that can specifically, if you’re connected with the university, they, um, would provide high risk, um, uh, financial, financial resources to high risk, um, innovations. Those take a little bit longer to do, and you definitely want a team to help guide you through that. But those are also, that’s also money that you don’t have to give up equity or parts of your company to access. And I’ll, I’ll pause there.

Commercial

Emily (18:35): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2024-2025 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Orientations or very close to the start of the academic year would be a perfect time for tax education or general personal finance content. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Ownership of Ideas and Technology Created With and Without University Resources

Emily (20:02): Yeah, I think that you led right into kinda the next question, which is like the more, um, I guess aside from technology that was developed under your employment with the university, that would then be, you know, co-owned with the university. Let’s say you had an idea outside of it, not related to directly your work, the university wouldn’t own it. Um, the more kind of help you reach out for, depending on the type of help that you get, you may be giving up, um, ownership in your idea. Is that right? Can you speak a little bit about that? I mean, maybe there’s different, you know, giving up equity is different than getting a grant, for example. Can you talk about some distinctions there?

Marquicia (20:39): Sure. So at the very, um, at the very early stage in early stage in life sciences are, um, say you have a device, a medical device, you have a prototype for that device, but you haven’t tested it out on humans. You haven’t done a clinical trial or you have a therapeutic that you, you’ve maybe tested it out on mice, um, but you haven’t, you haven’t moved it towards, um, seeing if it holds up in, in humans. Most of the time you’re doing that stuff with the university. But, uh, if you, if you aren’t and you’re still in that early stage, um, the, the choices that you have are, you can go for grants and in kind services they call this non-dilutive funding, where you don’t dilute your ownership. And, um, there’s regional and government funding for that. And then sometimes accelerators or, uh, venture venture groups will have a program in which they are developing something or they’re developing co-developing with you something that can fast track that time to the market.

Marquicia (21:42): So some examples of this could be like Y Combinator or, you know, um, uh, Techstars or something where in order to have access to this, this great structure that they put in, uh, and maybe even some funds to get together, they would require a percentage of your company small, it could be many that are between five to 12% of that company. Um, the thing is, if you are, if in, if you’re in the life science space and you’re that early stage and you’re already giving up equity, you have a very long runway <laugh> to go to where every, at every milestone the company gets a little bit more valuable. And if you, you’re already given up equity at those earlier stages, you don’t have as much for the, the really heavy duty milestones, a clinical trial, uh, you know, a a distributor agreement to also incorporate or leverage giving up some of your equity. Um, so it’s, it is a very different, uh, thing for the life sciences or an academic project to, to kind of evaluate these options. Uh, if you’re really early on, you haven’t gotten a lot of the feedback or regulatory spot you could consider yourself early and the latest you can push off giving off a pa- piece of your company, the better because it’ll be valuable hopefully later on. And, um, you’ll still have that, you’ll retain that, um, that ownership.

Common Skillsets and Mindsets Between PhDs and Entrepreneurs

Emily (23:09): Well, thank you so much for giving the listeners kind of a taste of that, um, those decisions that need to be made earlier on. It, it sounds like, um, being, you know, having an academic affiliation can be so helpful because you are in many ways still considered like a learner no matter, no matter what stage you’re at. And so there’s so many resources available to help you along that path. So I’m, I’m curious now about your personal journey and also the journeys you’ve observed in others, um, from, I believe you mentioned earlier that you started your company sort of out around the time that you finished graduate school. You’ve also had a lot of other positions along the way that have, you know, added to your career. Um, and so I’m wondering for you as an entrepreneur and someone who works with entrepreneurs, what kinds of, um, skill sets, maybe mindsets are common between PhDs and people who start and run businesses? Um, like what’s help? What did we learn in the PhD that’s helpful for later entrepreneurship, those kinds of things. And that could be from your personal experience or the people you’ve known.

Marquicia (24:09): Sure. I’ll start with my personal experience. So the very first time I was introduced to like, we have to set up a company around this technology was during my postdoc. So after I left Vanderbilt, I went to Michigan State University under a, a industrial postdoc position where, um, the goal was I was working with two academic re- tenure track professors, <laugh>, trying to get a company up and going and started. And so, um, the skillset that I brought to the table and that I was trying to hone, um, was, was interesting. ’cause I was, while I was getting my PhD, I was also getting my MBA, so I was learning what were some of the frameworks that business people used, how do they talk about how they use a process, and then how do, how does that work in the lab? Or, um, how do I need to translate that from what we were doing in the lab?

Marquicia (25:00): And so, um, I would also often go back to the framework for problem solving and commu- and gr- and great communication were, um, very much similar. They just were talking about different things. So I’ll, I’ll explain. So, um, in the lab I’m working through, okay, is a small molecule, uh, useful. We do a battery of tests to distinguish why, um, based off a couple of characteristics. It might be this one is, um, it works well with cells, it’s less toxic and, you know, um, it’s, it’s easy to make. I’m being arbitrary. The way I would translate that story, um, going through my, my MBA type of framework would be, well, what value are we creating and, and specifically, who is it for? So the molecule, these, these features that we have that we were very, um, we’re trying to, trying to point out and be distinct about, now I have to turn them into benefits.

Marquicia (26:01): Well, uh, it, it’s this type of molecule that means that it’s, it’s less toxic. What does that mean to our business uh, story? Um, the people who would use it, the physicians or even the patient themselves. Well, that means that if we can keep it within the cell, it’s not messing around with your, your gut and causing you nauseous or, you know, killing other healthy cells, that means that you could take less of it. And, you know, that means for the physicians, they might adhere to the, to the drug cadence a little bit better for the patient. It means that I’m not getting upset stomachs as as often, I don’t have to, you know, get as many injections. Those are the types of communication skills where you, you are working through the same rigorous process, but you’re just trying to communicate it in a little bit different way. Um, that you, that you see when you’re filling out that story as a, as a PhD, well, I’m doing this study who, who’s in my audience? Or who’s, who’s my audience? Usually it’s your community members, right? So they wanna say they wanna see what happened, what are you doing next? And then, you know, what, what can we help you with? Same thing with a, a VC <laugh> or a, a grant writer. You have to say, what was the background, um, in their particular words, what are you working on? What is, what’s the value that you’re creating? And then where can we go from next? What’s the big milestone? So you’re, you’re able to think through a structure, uh, that’s very similar. It’s, it just needs to be translated a little bit different. Um, but being able to communicate that is, is a strength. Uh, being able to work with multiple teams that are very bright people, but they don’t work where in the same lab and the same methods and tools that you work with, you need to be able to talk their language.

Marquicia (27:41): You have to do that in, in the business world as well. And the scientists and engineers who are able to cross that gap or the ones and coachable for doing that, understanding that, okay, this is a different language. You can apply the, the practice of it, but you have to say it in a certain way. The ones that are open to learning that those are the ones that can convince other people that this is something of value. Get on our team, give us funding, give us resources, uh, that, that helps them to move that, that tech forward.

Emily (28:10): That’s fascinating. Thank you so much. Was there anything else you wanted to add on that question about skills or mindsets that transfer?

Marquicia (28:18): Um, the only other thing is that, uh, usually when I talk about my PhD and I, and I hear other people’s story and they, it comes off very linearly. We can only say one thing at a time. We did this and then we did this, and then we did this. But in reality, your, your skillset that you’re picking up with these different experiences, they aren’t a straight line. They look more like a Gantt chart. It’s like, I was trying this and then I got, I got into graphic design by being the newspaper editor for the department or something like this. And then I, that kind of went to see what policy was doing. So I volunteered a semester at this and you know, you don’t really know if they overlap or if it will lead to that big next step, if you will. But, um, that’s okay.

Marquicia (29:00): It’s, that’s what makes the journey yours is how you find out what’s create, um, how, uh, what you resonate with and the skills that you learn and these offset project or offshoot products or something that you, I was just interested in. Those are the ones that, that when you’re talking to a hiring manager or a, a program manager for that next big gig, those are the things that will resonate with them too. So, um, uh, just know that it won’t be a straight line. You’re not gonna be able to line up, uh, everything until you’ve kind of stay taken a step back and said, well, well actually, that set me up really well for this. I didn’t even know I liked doing this particular thing. So that’s, that’s all I would say for that.

Ruby Leaf Media

Emily (29:42): Absolutely. It’s just a great encouragement to, um, devote I would say a certain amount of time, a certain consistent amount of time throughout your PhD to these, like outside of the lab type activities, um, just so you can explore yourself and explore your environment and figure out what you like. And, um, as you said, you don’t know where it’s going to lead, but that’s a reason to just experiment. And I certainly did this, I didn’t do this as much in my earlier years of my PhD, but certainly by the last couple of years I was more like actively reaching out and trying different things, including the things that led to personal finance for PhDs. Um, because I wanted to figure out where I wanted to go next, and I knew I wasn’t gonna get there by just like keeping my head down and like staying in the lab all the time. Um, that wasn’t where, uh, I was gonna be headed, so. Okay. Would you please tell us a little bit more about Ruby Leaf Media and how people can get in touch with you if they would like to follow up?

Marquicia (30:31): Sure. So I, I started Ruby Leaf Media, um, shortly, like around the time I was finishing up graduate school because I wanted to continue doing these small projects around market research or, you know, putting together a, a industry report and getting paid for it <laugh>. So, uh, basically I, I started Ruby Leaf Media to, um, have that vehicle for that and I really wanted a place to infuse some creativity. Uh, at the time I was really, um, interested in how can you turn, uh, something that’s really technical into something that could be very beautiful and inspiring to your, the people that are closest to you, your family, your, your, uh, community. And so, uh, create creativity versus, um, you know, just being very defensive and, and, um, tactical about what you’re saying. I wanted to kind of merge the two. And so being able to have my own company that worked at that intersection of, uh, storytelling that businesses usually will have to do in some type of, some shape of way was my, my reason for getting started.

Marquicia (31:41): Um, today I work with, uh, a lot of ecosystem partners, accelerators, um, academic universities or academic institutions, I to, I should say, that are trying to instill some of these ideas, um, in some of these concepts and just some of this creative, um, mentor learning or peer group learning, if you will, uh, with their, with their portfolio companies or with their, with their founders. And so, um, being able to, to provide structure for that, either through a program or being able to give them tips on how do you pitch, uh, for a particular funding opportunity, how do you put that story together? That’s what, that’s, um, what my team and myself are, are really interested in doing. And we’re really interested in being able to do that for a lot of different, um, providers so that you can get that group learning experience. Um, right now, uh, the best way to look to, to figure out and see all of the different companies that I’ve worked with actually is actually my LinkedIn profile. <laugh>.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (32:48): Very good, thank you. The last question that I ask of all my guests is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

Marquicia (33:01): Um, the advice part, uh, it kind of goes around budgeting. So graduate students, uh, well, when I was a graduate student, we got paid once a month and, um, I think probably a lot of graduate students started doing this. They’re doing something similar, but it really helped me got get into the idea of, um, a little bit longer term planning than two weeks or, or even one week, like what are some of the goals that we have for this particular month? IE what bills do we have to pay? What are we trying to get, get done? And, um, it set the habit of budgeting month by month and then, um, being able to bring that over to my business. Budgeting is absolutely one of the, I mean, I feel like a lot of your resources kind of talk, talk, talk through this, but, um, just getting a great habit of, um, not only just looking at the numbers, but what is the story behind the numbers?

Marquicia (33:59): Uh, just kind of walk through. I I, I kind of like when I go through my budget, like, okay, if I was to say, have a narrative around this, what did, what did it mean? And it’ll help you uncover what your priorities are. Something that’s not working. Like I, I spent so much money on this, but I don’t know if it’s really working. You’re kind of already gut checking and doing like an audit, if you will. Uh, and, and it’s, and it’s really helpful with business ’cause it’s like, I’m paying for all these subscription services, or I’m trying, I’m trying to get this marketing campaign off the, off the ground. I think it’ll be done with this quarter, but I’m already 15% into the budget. Did we do what we needed? Just kind of talk it out, <laugh>, just have a narrative around, around your finances and just, just say it out loud. We’ll help you uncover, you know, what’s, what’s working, what’s not working, what are some of your plans? Like, if you find yourself saying things over and over, it’s like, that’s, I keep saying this, uh, that’s, that’s been helpful for me.

Emily (34:55): You know, I, I don’t think I’ve ever heard that suggestion before. Like, not only within the podcast, but like in all the personal finance, you know, material that I read. I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone say, you know, in the budgeting reflection process to tell yourself a story and to create a narrative around how did this period of time go? Did I accomplish what I wanted to accomplish? And I find that to be such a good suggestion and I think I’m gonna start doing this <laugh>, um, because it feels very like non-judgmental. Like it’s, it’s just this is how things went. I’m gonna review that. I’m gonna tell myself the story of it, and next month I have the chance to start over again and make a different story next month if I want to or tell the same one if I thought it went really well.

Emily (35:37): And so, yeah. Yeah, that’s so creative and, and I obviously it plays back into this whole interview that we’ve had and the importance of communication and what you do now. So like, it shouldn’t surprise me that this advice, uh, you know, came from you in particular, but I think it’s, that was, that was really amazing. Thank you so much. Um, Marquicia, this has been such a fascinating interview. Um, thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast and to share kind of all of these wonderful, you know, experiences you’ve had and the resources you’ve been able to, um, tap into and just suggestions for other people who want to go on a similar path. Thank you.

Marquicia (36:08): Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate what you’re doing and this is great. I wish I had been listening to your podcast when I was a grad student.

Outtro

Emily (36:24): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This PhD Works Part-Time After Reaching Financial Independence in Austin Texas

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In this episode, Emily interview Dr. Corwin Olson, who completed his PhD in aerospace engineering and achieved financial independence (FI) just a handful of years later. Corwin argues that using a traditional IRA is typically advantageous over a Roth IRA, even for a grad student, if they have aspirations to retire early in the 0% marginal income tax bracket. Corwin and Emily walk step-by-step through his family’s finances and his money mindset from the time he finished his master’s in 2009 with a “$0 net worth” to when they reached FI in 2021. Corwin tried out unemployment during the pandemic, but ultimately returned to work a part-time schedule because he still wanted to use his engineering skills professionally. Corwin’s story highlights how a PhD can achieve a highly satisfying job and work-life balance through a combination of financial freedom and career capital.

Links mentioned in the Episode

This PhD Works Part-Time After Reaching Financial Independence in Austin Texas

Teaser

Corwin (00:00): It’s not about not working. This is what I tell everyone I meet who has not heard about FIRE or FI much before. It is not about not working. It is about control over your life. If you are financially independent, then you get to dictate what you do, like broadly across your entire life. I really wanted that control over my life, especially since we wanted to have another kid and we did. Uh, and so when, uh, our kid number two came along, my wife dropped down to halftime and then, uh, about six months later, I also dropped to zero time. And then I went back to work halftime this spring. It’s a perfect, um, application of FI. We decided that we were gonna do something different and that gave us the ability to do so without stressing about money.

Introduction

Emily (00:55): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:24): This is Season 17, Episode 9, and today my guest is Dr. Corwin Olson, who completed his PhD in aerospace engineering and achieved financial independence (FI) just a handful of years later. Corwin argues that using a traditional IRA is typically advantageous over a Roth IRA, even for a grad student, if they have aspirations to retire early in the 0% marginal income tax bracket. Corwin and I walk step-by-step through his family’s finances and his money mindset from the time he finished his master’s in 2009 with a “$0 net worth” to when they reached FI in 2021. Corwin tried out unemployment during the pandemic, but ultimately returned to work a part-time schedule because he still wanted to use his engineering skills professionally. Corwin’s story highlights how a PhD can achieve a highly satisfying job and work-life balance through a combination of financial freedom and career capital.

Emily (02:21): This spring, I’m bringing back my 15-minute introductory calls! This is a chance for you and I to meet one-on-one. I want to hear your current financial questions and challenges. If I can provide some quick value by answering a question or pointing you to a resource I absolutely will. These calls are a way for me to keep a pulse on what’s going on financially in our community so that I can address whatever comes up through my seminars for universities and the free content I create. I used to offer these calls years ago to everyone who joined my mailing list, and they were so fun and valuable to both of us! I would love to meet you, so please sign up today at PFforPhDs.com/intro/. By the way, we’re taking a short break from publishing podcast episodes between Season 17 and Season 18. You can expect the next episode to drop on June 3, 2024. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e9/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Corwin Olson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:35): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Corwin Olson of Engineering Your FI. Corwin is a PhD in aerospace engineering and he is now financially independent. And we met just a couple weeks ago. We’re recording this in November, 2023. We met at FinCon 2023, which happened in late October, and we ran into each other first at the taxes subgroup interest area, and I saw, um, his name and he saw mine and we knew we had to connect further. Um, so I’m just really excited to have a fellow engineer PhD on the podcast who is excited about personal finance and specifically fire. We’re gonna learn a lot from Corwin today. Um, so Corwin, will you please just introduce yourself, um, and your family to us a little bit further?

Corwin (04:20): Sure. Uh, married family, uh, two kids young on <inaudible>, two and seven. Uh, born in Dallas, Texas. Uh, but I’ve lived in Texas most of my life. So I’m currently in Austin, Texas. Uh, got my bachelor’s and master’s at UT Austin, university of Texas at Austin Aerospace Engineering back in the aughts. And uh, I also was fortunate enough as an undergraduate to become a certified NASA instructor, so that was a lot of fun. I got a lot of good leadership and speaking skills from that. Uh, worked to Washington DC for a few years and worked a company that did navigation for a big NASA mission, which was a lot of fun. Went back for my PhD in 2012. Uh, same school UT Austin and I worked on autonomous optical navigation around small bodies like asteroids and comets. Uh, then finished up my PhD in 2016 and continued on with UT as a researcher in one of the labs here at ut. And it was towards the second half of my PhD program. And then after getting my PhD that I got a lot more interested in personal finance and fire and discovered that whole community

Defining Financial Terms

Emily (05:24): Emily here breaking in during the editing process. Since Corwin and I about to jump into some heavy financial nerd-speak, I want to take a second here to define terms for new listeners. 1) FIRE stands for financial independence retire early and FI stands for financial independence. People in the FIRE movement strive for early financial independence so that they have the option to stop working, and by early I mean perhaps in your 30s or 40s. 2) An IRA is an individual retirement arrangement, and it is a tax break that the federal government offers to incentive investing for retirement. In 2024, you can invest up to $7,000 in an IRA if you’re under age 50 and have taxable compensation. When you open an IRA, you can choose a traditional version or a Roth version or both. With a traditional IRA, you get an income tax break on the money you contribute in the year of your contribution. The money then grows tax-free, and you pay ordinary income tax on the withdrawals in retirement. With a Roth IRA, you pay your full income tax on your contribution, and then the money grows income tax-free and you withdraw it income tax-free in retirement. The standard advice is to contribute to Roth accounts when you are in your lower-earning years and a relatively low income tax bracket and switch to traditional when in your higher-earning years and a relatively high income tax bracket. Corwin is going to argue that people who want to retire early should really prefer to contribute to traditional accounts, and that includes grad students in the 12% federal marginal tax bracket. OK back to the interview.

Contributing to a Traditional IRA vs a Roth IRA in Grad School

Emily (06:49): Now, you said something very provocative to me at FinCon, which was that I, I may butcher what you said, but it was something on the lines of pretty much everybody should just be using traditional retirement accounts. And maybe you were saying that in the context of people who are interested in pursuing FI. Can you re restate what, what caught my attention during our conversation?

Corwin (07:07): Well, I think my main motivation was to emphasize how much better traditional is than a lot of people think. They think, oh, I wanna pay my taxes now, might be larger later. And from everything I’ve read for lots of different places, especially in the fire community, if you do the math, it consistently shows that traditional seems to come out on top.

Emily (07:30): Of course, my follow up question to you at that time was what about the grad students Corwin? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So that is what you have worked on in the few weeks since we left FinCon preparing for this interview. So let’s talk now about a grad student kind of specific scenario. So we’re talking about someone who’s in graduate school, we’re gonna make the assumption that they’re in the 12% marginal tax bracket. I’ve always kinda said, uh, virtually every grad student I’ve ever spoken with, if they’re investing in an in an IRA, they’re using a Roth. It’s just like the popular option by far and there’s reasons for that which we’ll go into. Um, but you we’re just gonna do the math for us. So yeah, please tell us now like the scenarios that you were looking at and kind of the outcomes and where people can read your full post about this.

Corwin (08:13): Sure. So, uh, I did this most recent blog post on engineeringyourfi.com, traditional Roth versus traditional IRA contributions in grad school. And I put the Python code that I used to generate all these results in the post. You can go download it, take a look. I know a lot of grad students know Python, so that’s good <laugh>. Um, the broad strokes conclusion is generally, you know what people have said for many, many years. It all depends on your input versus output tax rates, right? So if you are a hundred percent confident that you’re gonna be withdrawing your money in a 24% marginal tax bracket later in life and you’re in grad school now and you’re in the 12% tax bracket, then yeah you should just put it into Roth if you’re totally sure of that, right? But I think what I like to push for is that actually, especially if you’re at all interested in financial independence at an early age, retiring early, taking sabbaticals, um, then actually it can make a lot more sense to go after traditional because it is actually a lot more feasible to have a 0% tax bracket is a FIREd person, early retired person, uh, by taking a advantage of the standard deduction and the really large typically, um, 0% long-term capital gains bracket. So I did a lot of plots and I showed, you know, not just the values of the traditional versus Roth, which is deceptive, right? ’cause you haven’t paid taxes on the traditional but also the cash out value of each. And there’s some really cool nuances and fluctuations after you hit 60 or 59 and a half, things simplify a lot, right? There’s no 10% penalty. But in general, um, I still would prefer traditional because I think with our expense levels we can very easily have a 0% tax bracket and it’s quite beneficial for us to go do that. So a lot more detail in the post though.

Emily (10:00): Yeah. So what I was kind of thinking through when I was looking at these results here, which are basically like, well, okay, you’re looking at your 12% current marginal tax bracket that you would presumably be paying as a graduate student versus when you want to withdraw from this account. Maybe that’s before retirement age, maybe that’s after, um, what is your marginal tax rate going to be? Then you looked at three assumptions, which was zero, as you’ve just been mentioning 24% and also 12%. Um, and once you actually pay the tax on this money, once you get it outta the traditional account, um, it was sort of, it was even right just as good if you were withdrawing it in the 12% tax bracket, right? Same, same. Um, if you manage to get down at that 0% tax bracket, then there’s a clear advantage for the traditional and if you’re a managing to be withdrawing money in the 24% tax bracket, there’s an advantage for the Roth. But what I was thinking about and maybe what could be a thought exercise for the listener is what is your tax bracket going to be in retirement? Because when you say something like 24%, like that might be your tax bracket in your, your peak, you know, earning years, working years for your family, something in that range. But a lot of people live on much less money in retirement. That is to say they have to withdraw much less money than they were earning because maybe they had a high savings rate going on. Maybe their expenses have dropped later in life because their kids are outta the house or whatever the reason is. Um, so it’s very hard to sort of predict what, what is your tax bracket going to be later in life? Is it gonna be as high as it is in your working years? Is it definitely going to be lower? Um, and especially sitting from the position of a grad student when you don’t really know what your career is going to be. So definitely like for those of you who want to nerd out about tax rates and would be open to the possibility of maybe not doing a Roth IRA during grad school, maybe doing the traditional, definitely check out Corwin’s post at Engineering Your FI. Um, but I want to talk further now about your personal story and why for you that 0% tax bracket, oh, the traditional would’ve been the better choice, um, was is something that you have, have, you know, achieved in this at a relatively early age. So yeah, let’s talk more about your like personal story. So you told us earlier that you worked for several years before pursuing your PhD. You weren’t into the fire movement at that time. Um, so were you doing things like contributing to your tax advantage retirement accounts? Like or was it something you didn’t even think about at that time?

Pre-FIRE Finances

Corwin (12:15): Yeah, so I was fortunate to get my master’s in 2009. Went down to a net worth of $0 <laugh> because I spent all my savings going through a big backpacking trip. But my uncle sent me this article, snail mail of course, you know, back in 2009 and it’s my Uncle <laugh> and it was this money article about how you should invest in index funds. And I’m like, Hmm, okay, what are these things? The markets had just crashed, you know, they were very low valuations. So I was like, you know, I should probably do this. At the very least, I uh, wanted to match my 401k for my employer, right. And my wife had started working around the same time. So we did that, but we also had to save for a wedding and we lived in Washington DC very expensive. So at the time we were not focused on maxing out our savings rate, but we did know we needed to start investing and that paid off quite heavily because the markets were so down. We started our careers. We were lucky to get jobs <laugh> in 2009, right when the market, the economy was, uh, suffering heavily. So yeah, we were fortunate

Emily (13:12): So you had a savings rate.

Corwin (13:14): Yeah, right. I don’t even know what it was. It was definitely under 50% <laugh>.

Emily (13:19): So. Okay. So let’s kind of fast forward to when you started your PhD. I think you said that was 2012, right? Yes. And so what was your mindset like at that time around, I mean, I’m presuming you took a pay cut, right? Uh, but maybe your wife maintained her income. Like just talk us through kind of the, the shift in household finances that occurred when you started your PhD.

Corwin (13:37): Sure. So I was very fortunate that because of my work experience and grades and all that, I was able to get this really nice NASA fellowship and I also was able to get a really nice UT fellowship. So I made a pretty nice salary in graduate school, 45K a year. Uh, so it is possible to do that <laugh> for the, uh, the folks who are listening out there. Uh, it’s, you know, not super common. Usually you’re looking at close to 20k, although maybe that number’s higher now because of inflation, you know? Um, but you can make a bit more money with these fellowships. That’s why I strongly encourage all grad students to go after them. Um, but yeah, I, uh, I was more into minimalism back then ’cause I didn’t know about fire and so I thought, okay, maybe this is how I need to, to live my life, be minimalist <laugh>. But yeah, it was still, you know, finances were not, were always on the back burner still at that point.

Emily (14:28): So you were still saving, but it was not a, a major focus until a few years later, is that right?

Corwin (14:32): Right, right, right.

Post-PhD Finances and the Financial Independence Movement

Emily (14:33): Okay. So let’s talk about when you were finishing your PhD. Um, what was going on with your family overall and then how your finances changed when you got that post PhD job?

Corwin (14:42): We were pregnant with my first child. Uh, and so he was born three months before my dissertation <laugh>, which was quite rough. And you know, my wife and I are thinking about what we wanted to do after I got my degree and she was enjoying her job. She wanted to continue there. I was thinking about the business, small business, thought I might do something entrepreneurial. And it was when I discovered the FI movement, it was a Mr. Money Mustache article as it is for so many people. Uh, that really launched me down that, uh, community path, uh, to find out about all of that. And then I realized, actually I think that’s what I want most out of life right now, <laugh>. So I was fortunate that there, um, was a high paying engineering job that I could take here in Austin, a a really good lab here. So, uh, I decided, well, I think that’s what I want. Also, we have a baby coming and this would be nice to have that stability for that. Maybe a little less stress <laugh> a few less hours. I always told people my easy job was going into the office, right? Uh, so that was where we decided, okay, let’s just do two full-time jobs and let’s really ramp up our savings rate. So we ramped it up to, I think on average about 70%. Um, and one of the reasons I was able to do that is I was very fortunate that I had access to an additional retirement account, 457B, which hopefully some of your listeners are familiar with. So we maxed out that we maxed out my 403B, my wife’s 401k. That helped a tremendous amount with getting that kind of savings, right? So, yeah.

Emily (16:17): Wow. I just, I wanna probe a little bit further on like, okay, you, you’ve had this career already, you’ve just finished your PhD and you decide I don’t wanna work anymore. Or like, I don’t wanna have to work anymore in a, in a relatively short period of time, right? ’cause most people, you finish a PhD, you’re looking at 30, 40, 50 year career after that point. But that is very antithetical to like the MMM like mindset. So what exactly was your goal and what was your motivation for pursuing that goal?

Corwin (16:45): So it was really about the latter thing you just said and not the former thing. You said it’s not about not working. This is what I tell everyone I meet who has not heard about fire or fi much before. It is not about not working. It is about control over your life. If you are financially independent, then you get to dictate what you do like broadly across your entire life. So my wife took advantage of that by essentially creating a new role within our company. She’s like, I’m not as enjoying this as much, but I would like to stay with y’all. I like the people I’m working with. I’d rather do this. And they said, oh, okay, well let’s say yeah, <laugh>. So she’s continued to do that and she really likes it. And I also really wanted that control over my life, especially since we wanted to have another kid. And we did. Uh, and so when, uh, our kid number two came along, my wife dropped down to halftime, and then, uh, about six months later, I also dropped to zero time. And then I went back to work halftime this spring and we could talk a lot more about that <laugh> as well. But it’s really just the, I mean, it’s a perfect, um, application of FI. We decided that we were gonna do something different and that gave us the ability to do so without stressing about money.

Emily (17:59): So this is just a very short timeline and I know you, you know, you had been saving since like 2009 at a lower rate, but really we’re talking like 2016 when you started your post PhD job, um, to, it sounds like about 2021 when you were able to really change like your work lives. Um, I mean that’s only five years. Like even the most aggressive, like fire people talk about 10 years, right? Not starting from zero. Um, yeah, so like this is just, it’s just amazing. I mean, I know the 70% savings rate, like that’s what did it, right? That’s a really, really high savings rate.

Corwin (18:31): Well, market the markets too-

Emily (18:32): But I’m just marveling over this short timeline. Mm-Hmm,

Corwin (18:34): <affirmative> Yeah, the market’s really exploded. If it had been a bad or even mediocre market during that time, we, we would not have done that. I mean, it was just because the stock market, we didn’t do anything other than bland vanilla total stock market index funds. So we didn’t pick stocks or anything like that to try to get lucky with, you know, which ones we’ve chose. So it was good fortune as well, big time.

Emily (18:57): I think in some ways your story is relatable, like you just said, using index funds. No crazy inaccessible investing strategies. Uh, furthermore, as you mentioned earlier, you took a straight W2 job, you didn’t, you know, strike out on your own and start the business. There can be upside to that. There can also be downside. Um, and so in, in that way it’s relatable, but come on, a 70% savings rate, like that’s the part that’s like, how are you doing this? So I want you to give me a couple of like structural things like how, how your life is that helps you achieve or at that time, right from, from those incomes you had then that 70% savings rate. I know you mentioned you use the pre-tax retirement accounts, that’s awesome. But it doesn’t, uh, change your actual spending. So like how are you keeping the spending down? Like where do you live, what do you drive? Like these kinds of things. Yeah, right.

Expenses with a 70% Savings Rate

Corwin (19:40): So we’re fortunate that we live in Austin, Texas, which historically has been a lower cost of living. Now it’s changing. We bought our house in 2013, which at the time we thought, oh, this is way too late. You know, we’re gonna pay so much more money than we would’ve a year ago or whatever. But our house is doubled in value since then. Our mortgage is so much lower than it would be if we bought in Austin now. Um, and we’ve also been consistently frugal. We were both raised pretty frugally, so you know, our five year spending inflation adjusted is around 50K ish. So now, uh, that does not include daycare. Uh, daycare is something that we do pay for, but that’s gonna end in like two or three years. So we kind of set that as a lump that together on the side kind of deal.

Corwin (20:28): Um, but it’s been primarily keeping expenses down. Uh, we do a lot of things like travel hacking, which I love, you know, figuring out ways to pay for travel without, ’cause if we didn’t do that, our spending would be a significantly higher. Um, and just, you know, variety of things. I’m always optimizing perhaps obsessively <laugh>. Uh, so yeah, it’s, it was something that we were able to uh, just continue to work at. We got Mint mobile for example, and that slashed our cell phone bill dramatically. We never even knew about it beforehand. And so it was just consistent, you know, inflation things go up. But every year we kind of go down for us a bit as we found optimizations for various things. Now I think we’ve pretty plateaued essentially. Um, we just bought a new roof, so <laugh> that brought up our spending quite a bit.

Corwin (21:20): Uh, but yeah, I mean it’s, I think that a lot of people are scared by the 50% or higher numbers and I’m always telling people, you should save at least 50% of your income. And I usually get eye rolls or stares or okay, this guy’s like off the wall. I dunno, I’m not listening to him anymore, but, which is bad, right? <laugh>. But I think it’s still something that I love to see people achieve or at least work to achieve. Because if you do the math, you’ve seen it probably before these various plots, like from zero, how long it takes to get financial independence. If you’re at 50% it’s 15 years. So, and higher percentages don’t shave that many more years off ’cause of that exponential growth. So I feel like that’s a nice sweet spot done with mandatory work in a decade and a half, I feel like that really gets, speaks to a lot of people.

Corwin (22:09): So I’m always pushing that, you know, try to get to 50% even if you’re not there, try to get there because you’ll gain so much more power over your life so much faster as a result. And that was really what was important to us. That’s what motivated us this entire time before we discovered fire. You know, my wife and I would be like, well is this important or not? We didn’t have like a unifying goal, so, you know, that caught us on the same page so much better. So fire’s good for your marriage for a lot of reasons. I think <laugh> also, I think, you know, money conflicts are one of the big things that drive a lot of marital stress. So that was another thing that was important to us. So, yeah, I don’t know if I really answered your question, but we just try to keep expenses down general.

Emily (22:48): Yeah, I think the key answer in there was the home purchase in 2013, but yeah, furthermore not upgrading, right? Because I know, you know, this is the temptation when you have your first baby or your second baby is we have to live in a bigger place. We have to drive a bigger car, a newer car, like there’s lifestyle inflation that’s, that’s baked into those like sort of um, life transition points, family transition points. And so at least with respect to your home, you’ve clearly, um, avoided that temptation of of lifestyle inflation.

Corwin (23:15): It’s hard though. We wish we had another room in this house all the time. <laugh>, especially when grandparents come to visit. This is my office slash guest room. So you know, when uh, when uh, we’ve got visitors, I lose my office and that’s annoying. But you know, it’s okay.

Emily (23:32): Do you think you’re gonna stay?

Corwin (23:36): Probably. Uh, so our son’s in elementary school now and I think if we were to buy a new house, we would probably need to move to a different neighborhood, different area. He’d have to change schools and it doesn’t seem like it’s worth it. We’ve thought about doing an add-on as well, so especially with interest rates the way they are now. So we’re, we’re camp mortgage. We’re team mortgage, so, uh, we’ve got a pretty low mortgage as well, so, yeah.

Benefits of Financial Independence

Emily (24:00): Yeah, so it sounds like you’re gonna try to find a way to stick it out in the same house and, and keep that mortgage. That’s amazing. Um, okay, well I wanna talk more about like the, the benefits you’ve experienced of the, the degree of fire that you have now, which was, you mentioned that you, your wife went to half time, you left your job for time, now you’re back working part-time. Can you just talk about how, um, this FI achievement slash the mindset stuff enabled you to find that like satisfaction with your work and the control over how you work?

Corwin (24:26): Yeah, so I, I was not, I was an unemployed bum for a year and a half and, uh, <laugh>

Emily (24:27): Stay home dad <laugh>.

Corwin (24:33): <laugh> I prefer an unemployed bum because it gets people like what, uh, but I think that after a while I also realized, you know, I spent close to 20 years developing all these engineering skills and it’s like I was doing a lot of other projects that were fun. I worked on this site engineering your FI and that was fun, but I also felt like it just felt so, uh, wasteful, I guess is the best word. Like not use those skills anymore. I missed a lot of the friends I had at the lab that I worked at. And so, um, I had lunch with my boss slash friend, a former boss slash friend from the lab. And you know, he told me there’s some really cool stuff going on, you know, would you be interested in maybe come back? So I spoke with him, I spoke with some of the other management and we greeted on this really nice halftime deal where I always get to leave by two o’clock.

Corwin (25:19): I always leave by two o’clock to, to pick up my son from school. We bike home from school. That was something I always wanted when I was a kid to be able to, you know, go home with my parents bike home, whatever, right? So I was like, that’s very, very important to me. And uh, it’s allowed me to continue working on my site. Other things, projects, just logistics at home. So it’s been really, really nice. My wife is same. She gets to volunteer at the school a lot because she’s working halftime. So it’s been a really nice balance. I wrote a whole blog post about the pros and cons of halftime part-time after fire because, you know, mathematically you don’t need to <laugh>. Um, so I tried to uh, lay out those ’cause I wrote so many pros and cons list <laugh> before I went back, so yeah.

Emily (26:06): Yeah, I have a similar work schedule. My business allows me to work about halftime same as you. I work kind of while my kid is in school and then we get the late, you know, the latter part of the afternoon together. Um, which I mean that flexibility is, is kind of like invaluable as a parent, honestly. Like, um, it’s, it’s very, very difficult once your kids get into elementary school to figure out how you’re gonna run everything if you have like two traditional nine to five like schedules. So I definitely see the appeal there, but like I was just saying, there’s multiple ways you can achieve this, right? Business ownership, working part-time being totally fi, um, maybe just having an alternative kind of work schedule. Like all these different possibilities are there, but the more, as you were saying earlier, the more kind of confidence you have that you don’t need your job <laugh> in exactly the format that you have it right now, the more that gives you the ability to negotiate for what would really work for you, which is so beautiful. So you don’t have to be all the way FI to get there. Um, you happen to be, but you can just be like on the path and be secure enough that, you know, you can take a risk with that kind of ask.

Corwin (27:07): Yeah, yeah. I talked, one of the other articles on my site is, uh, something called Flamingo Fire Flamingo Fi, which I was a big fan that first time I heard of it. It originally came from a blogger in Australia actually. And when I first encountered that, I thought this is a great balance of FI versus, uh, not being so aggressive with your savings. Early on, their philosophy was save up to halfway to the FI point and then, uh, work however much you need to to cover expenses. And then about a decade or so you’ll be traditional FI. So it’s more aggressive than coast fi, less aggressive than standard fi. Mm. And so I thought that’s a really nice balance. And so I feel like we’re kind of the fat flamingo fi version because we’re at standard fire closer to that. But with these halftime jobs, we more than cover our expenses and we expect, you know, probably within, you know, half a decade or so, something like that, we’ll probably be more of the fat FI level, whatever that means. So, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s nice to have these different levels and different ways to have power over your life. Big time.

Emily (28:12): I’m thinking about the phrase live like a grad student, live like a resident, you know, that like, um, live like you’re still a trainee even afterwards. Now. I think that really applies in your case because you had the very nice stipend. I mean, 45K in 2012 is like really, really, I was making like 28 K in 2012. Um, you have that like nicer sort of level of income while you were in graduate school plus your wife’s job and everything. Uh, but it sounds like you probably about maintained your lifestyle, um, even with increases in income aside from the additional expenses for childcare and so forth that come with the kids. Does that sound about right?

Corwin (28:44): Yeah, yeah. Roughly, if anything, we lowered it. Mm-Hmm. Because we found various ways to stop wasting money <laugh> on things like cell phone bills and other things. I found that you could call these companies that could compare your insurance rates across a whole bunch of different companies and, you know, always found it’s the lowest rate, et cetera, et cetera. You know, it’s like the more you know, knowledge you gain the, the faster the snowball starts, right? So that was a, you know, a big thing that we, you know, I always try to keep it in mind inflation <laugh> as well, because sometimes it’s going up, but you’re still going, you’re still doing good compared to inflation, especially recently. But, uh, but yeah, we definitely strove to not inflate after the PhD for sure.

Commercial

Emily (29:31): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2024-2025 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Orientations or very close to the start of the academic year would be a perfect time for tax education or general personal finance content. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Corwin’s Book: Engineering Your PhD

Emily (30:58): Since you were just mentioning, we were just talking about your excellent stipend and so forth, you have a book, right? That’s relevant to graduate students. Can you tell us about that?

Corwin (31:06): Sure. Uh, so this is something I wrote back in 2019. Uh, it’s called Engineering Your PhD, an Actionable Guide to Earning Your Graduate Degree in Engineering. I had looked around online and I found books that were designed, written for PhDs and how to get your PhD the best <laugh>, but not a lot for engineering. There’s like maybe one or two others. And I had all this knowledge in my brain from when I got my PhD about how to do various things that I really wished I’d known before I started graduate school. So it was really more of like a passion project, like let’s get this into a more permanent form. Something I can hand to my kids one day if they wanna go to graduate school and say, Hey, engineering, at least you know, this is the collection of things that I thought were important when I finished up. So yeah, it’s on Amazon now and uh, um, I will say it’s not really my focus anymore to focus on academia. I’m much more interested in FI and fire and personal finance and things like that. It’s been a while since I was in academia. Now that’s hard to believe, but, uh, yeah, it’s still I think a well-written book according to my very biased opinion <laugh>. So if anyone interested in, uh, joining, uh, interested in checking that out, you’re certainly welcome to.

Emily (32:20): Editing Emily breaking in again! Corwin very generously is offering Engineering Your PhD free for download for five days after the publication of this interview. If you’d like to grab it, please go to PFforPhDs.com/S17E9/ and you’ll see the Amazon link in the list of links near the starts of the show notes. OK back to the interview.

The Future of Corwin’s FI Journey

Emily (32:43): So thanks for telling us about the book. Um, I wanted to ask one more question before we get to our final one, which is what, what does the future look like, right? You’re, you’re, you’re at FI, maybe you’re gonna continue building towards a fatter version of FI. You, you have your halftime work schedule. Like do you anticipate making any changes or are you just gonna cruise to a traditional retirement age at this? Like what do you think?

Corwin (33:04): I don’t know. That’s a good question. So for the foreseeable future, we’re gonna continue doing our part-time roles. I think that’s a good balance for us with young kids right now. But things could change in the future. Maybe we decide we wanna actually ramp up, we want to strengthen our careers, we wanna get more into what we’re doing in our jobs. Maybe we wanna go the opposite direction and do less or focus on entrepreneurial activities. You know, we live here in Austin, Texas where it gets very warm in the summertime. So I think we’ve toyed around with the idea of living elsewhere during the summer times when the kids are out of school. Uh, so that’s something that might be of interest to us, but that’s, you know, more like the summertime versus the rest of the entire year. So, you know, we could take sabbaticals from our, uh, part-time roles for a couple months, get outta the heat and then come back. That sounds really nice. Uh, and then who knows, you know, once my daughter graduates from high school, uh, in 16 years <laugh>, then, you know, the world’s our oyster. We might go elsewhere, we might go to Colorado or depending how hot the earth is at that point we may have to go further north <laugh>. Um, so yeah, we’ll, uh, we’ll have to see what happens.

Emily (34:15): Okay. I just love how like calm and like chill that answer was just like, I don’t know, we’re doing FI. We’ll see where it goes. We’ll do what we want. Um, and that’s really what fire affords you. Um, especially fire in, you know, professional fields like you have where you have so much career capital as Cal Newport would say by this point, right? You can deploy it in different ways, right? Um, so I love that.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (34:36): Okay, so let’s get to our standard question. What is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? It could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Corwin (34:47): So a few things that are very standard boilerplate pieces of advice. Well, maybe one’s not so much. First thing is track your expenses. I mean, if you’re not tracking your expenses, that is the foundation for everything. If you have no idea how much you’re spending, then you’re not going to be able to make almost any progress on lots of different things, especially if you wanna pursue financial independence. ’cause that’s gonna tell you how much money you need to save. That’s gonna tell you your savings rate is all kinds of things. Uh, and you’re not gonna be able to reduce it if you don’t know how much you’re spending. Uh, another thing is, like I mentioned earlier, I’m always pushing for a 50% savings rate, if not currently, then aspirationally trying to get there because it’s such a powerful thing for your finances and getting to financial independence within a couple decades.

Corwin (35:30): Uh, also a big fan of not getting complicated with investments. Put everything into a low cost stock market index fund, like V-T-S-A-X. First thing I do when I look at a fund is go straight to the expense ratio. <laugh>, it’s the first thing I do. But the last thing I would say is maybe a little less, um, uh, traditional, which is I encourage people to build their own tracking systems, their own financial tracking systems. There’s so many tools out there, just an infinite number of tools you can pop your numbers into and get all these different things. But I feel like if you do your own thing, you’re building the skills up to track your finances that you have that ultimate customization for what you actually want, right? Even if it’s just spreadsheets, you know, that’s, that’s perfectly fine. It’s usually free. You’re not paying anything. Again, that’s good for your savings rate, right? Um, but I do recommend trying out some other tools as well, uh, to see if the numbers line at least closely or roughly <laugh>. So yeah, that’s be my top pieces of finance advice for grad students.

Emily (36:35): I really love. Well, but the first and the last one, right track and also build your own, um, tool for doing so and, and doing more than just tracking because at the moment that we’re recording this finance internet is a buzz because Mint has announced they’re shutting down their, uh, budgeting feature and they’re kind of transitioning over, I think completely to Credit Karma stuff. So I’ve been a mint user for like, I don’t know, like 13 or 14 years now. And not that I’ve been completely reliant on it, but to the degree that I have my own stuff going on, I’m really happy for that now. ’cause now I’m like, okay, what do I do? I have to like download all this data. It’s gonna be like unusable CSV files, like what is going to happen with this like track record? So, but as you were saying, like there’s other great tools out there. Like you need a budget, it’s so popular, but there is a yearly fee to it. And so if you don’t want to have that kind of subscription, build your own stuff, it’s not, I don’t know, it’s not that complicated. I guess it depends on how great you are with like, you know, spreadsheets and stuff. But, um, so I love that advice of just like, be ready for these services to shut down on you. It’s literally happening to me at this moment. Yeah. So don’t be totally reliant on outside, you know, um, apps and so forth.

Corwin (37:40): Yeah, I think if you’re smart enough to get into a decent graduates program, then I think you’re smart enough to create a spreadsheet that can track your finances at least at a crude level that you can be fully in control of <laugh>. So yeah.

Emily (37:54): Yeah. Um, I’ll take the opportunity to plug something of mine in the show notes. I’ve literally not announced this on the podcast yet, uh, as of this recording. But I made an a simple Excel spending tracker that incorporates a couple of my like philosophies about how to manage money, which are to, um, spend what you earned last month, <laugh>, like don’t spend what just came in, like wait until the next month to spend it. Hmm. Um, and also to incorporate, um, sinking funds or targeted savings like into that, that system. So I don’t know, people ask me for a long time, like if I could just send them a simple spending tracker and I finally made one a few weeks ago in response to someone at a speaking engagement who wanted it. So go to PFforPhDs.com/tracker if you wanna download that and take it and make it your own and build it out and have it do other things and take my ideas, discard my ideas, whatever you like. But if you want a starting point, like there’s a starting point for you Corwin, um, it’s been a such a fascinating conversation. I’m so excited for how your life has unfolding and how the PhD has played a role in that. Um, it’s so excellent and thank you so much for sharing your story with the audience and coming on the podcast.

Corwin (38:57): Thank you very much.

Outtro

Emily (39:08):  Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This Grad Student Took Control of Her Finances to Shift Her Income Sources

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In this episode, Emily interviews Fern Wolburg Martinez, a 4th-year PhD student in Industrial/Organizational Psychology at Portland State University. Fern shares the pros and cons of the various income sources she’s used for her graduate work: a teaching assistantship, a fellowship, student loans, side jobs, and social safety net programs. When Fern was offered a fellowship, she realized she would no longer be eligible to take out student loans and had to decline it. Fern subsequently worked on her spending and budgeting to put herself in a position to accept the fellowship and increase her income later on. Finally, Fern and Emily discuss how you can employ a researcher’s skills and mindset in the personal finance arena.

Links mentioned in the Episode

This Grad Student Took Control of Her Finances to Shift Her Income Sources

Teaser

Fern (00:00): No idea where my money was going, how much money I was spending, and how, what my stable fixed expenses looked like every month. And then finally what my advisor offered the fellowship and she’s like, Hey, you should go on this fellowship. I was like, oh, I don’t know. I can’t do student loans. I have to look into it, so maybe I can afford it, but I’m not sure. So this is where the scientist mindset came in. It’s like, okay, I need objective data to look at my situation and make an informed decision.

Introduction

Emily (00:36): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:05): This is Season 17, Episode 8, and today my guest is Fern Wolburg Martinez, a 4th-year PhD student in Industrial/Organizational Psychology at Portland State. Fern shares the pros and cons of the various income sources she’s used for her graduate work: a teaching assistantship, a fellowship, student loans, side jobs, and social safety net programs. When Fern was offered a fellowship, she realized she would no longer be eligible to take out student loans and had to decline it. Fern subsequently worked on her spending and budgeting to put herself in a position to accept the fellowship and increase her income later on. Finally, Fern and I discuss how you can employ a researcher’s skills and mindset in the personal finance arena.

Emily (01:51): If you’re listening to this episode on the day it drops, you know that it is Tax Day! I hope that you have already submitted your 2023 tax return, paid your 2023 tax bill, and made your 2024 quarter 1 estimated tax payment for your fellowship, if required. However, there have been many years in which I was still working on any or all of those elements right up to and even past the deadline. If you’re in that position and need additional resources on taxes tailored to the graduate student, postdoc, or postbac experience, join one of my asynchronous tax workshops to immediately access my best teaching on these topics. Go to PFforPhDs.com/tax/ and scroll to the bottom of the page to learn more about the tax return preparation workshop and the estimated tax workshop. Best of luck to you in these final hours of tax season! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e8/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Fern Wolburg Martinez.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:10): I am delighted how joining me on the podcast today, Fern Wolburg Martinez. She’s a current graduate student at Portland State in industrial organizational psychology. And we are going to talk about how Fern has funded her graduate program, both, you know, through the graduate program, through side hustles. Um, we’re also gonna talk about budgeting and just really get into the numbers today of like what a current graduate student is, um, is making and spending. So, Fern, I’m so delighted to have you on. Thank you so much for volunteering to come on and be open about this subject. And would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

Fern (03:41): Yeah, thank you, Emily. So, like you mentioned, I’m Fernanda, I go by Fern and I am currently in my fourth year of my graduate program preparing for my comprehensive exams. And my expertise is on occupational health psychology. Specifically, I explore how sexual harassment and customer sexual harassment affects the wellbeing of employees.

PhD Program Funding and Stipend Advocacy Efforts

Emily (04:03): Okay, thank you so much. Can you tell us about how your program has been funded to date?

Fern (04:09): Yeah, so the nice thing about my program is just a master’s to PhD program and it’s fully funded if you get accepted. So they cover tuition, everything. And it was an interesting trajectory because we had a stipend that was very low. It was like after taxes, it was about a thousand a month. And then the students really advocated for more because that’s barely covers rent in Portland. Portland’s a pretty expensive city. And then they raised the stipend by almost like 200%. So after taxes, it ended up being like $2,000. Um, and that’s just for the graduate teaching assistantships. And we also have a, an amazing funding program from the National Institute of Health, which is under the CDC, which is an OHP or occupational health psychology type of training where they give a fellowship to up to three to four students per year. And you can have it for two years. And that’s what I’m currently on, and that one is not taxed. And it’s about like 2,400 a month.

Emily (05:14): Okay. I wanna hear more about this advocacy process. It doesn’t sound like, was there an official union going on or was it just like, Nope, we’re all just talking together and saying you have to pay us more. This is unsustainable.

Fern (05:25): Yeah, so I cannot take full credit for that. Not even partial credit because I have to say it’s when I started the program, it’s kind of like, oh, I’m so excited to have a PhD and join this program and I don’t care how much money it is. And then I face the realities of actually having to live on that stipend and take out student loans. And the stress comes with that because grad student loans are different from undergrad student loans with the interest and the plus loans. Um, so I was just dealing with it and I was like, this is fine. This is the way it is. And stressfully. And, but thankfully I was, uh, I started during covid, so I was still living at home in Arizona at this time, so I could still save on rent, but it was still nothing. Right. Um, and it’s not until the cohort after me that the program really focused on diversifying our population of students.

Fern (06:14): And these students from different backgrounds were all about fighting for themselves and for the collective wellbeing. And they were like, this is not a livable stipend and if you wanna be a diverse and competitive program, you need to do something about it. So they really insisted with the faculty. And we do have a union, but the union, you know, the students can barely afford to pay for the rent. So like, nevermind paying for a union due. Right. Um, so they didn’t go through the union. It was more like the psychology department students from that specific cohort just really advocated with the faculty. And then the faculty were also really amazing at being receptive about it and talking to the dean about it. And I’m not sure how they moved the funds around, but they were able to increase the stipend for everybody.

Emily (07:00): Wow. Love to hear that success story especially.

Fern (07:03): Yeah. Shout out to them.

Emily (07:04): I mean, the union as like approach is certainly powerful, but it’s, but it’s slow and it’s, um, it’s onerous. And so this sounds like kind of a quicker if if the faculty and so forth, everybody is, um, amenable to it. This is kind of like a quicker route. So I’m so glad to hear that story of how that cohort after you, um, helped themselves and everybody else by just talking about this. And it’s, I mean, a thousand dollars a month is just ridiculous for an amount of stipend to try to live on that. Okay. So it sounds like you had been on a teaching assistantship at first, is that right? For at least a couple years,

Fern (07:36): Yes, for the first three years.

Emily (07:38): Okay. So for three years on a teaching assistantship, now you’re on this fellowship  through the federal funding kind of route. Can you tell us, um, in terms of your experience as a graduate student, what the advantages or the pros and cons were for each of these different, um, types of funding?

Fern (07:54): Yeah, so the teaching assistantship, it’s like a regular W2 job. So you, your taxes are taken out, you don’t have to worry about that. You get the same money at the same time every month. It’s less money though. So it’s about, oh my God, what’s the difference? Like $500 less, probably more in comparison to the fellowship. Um, but the good, the biggest pro about that, besides the fact that they give you the W2 and the taxes, is that you can take out student loans with that. So with having the teaching assistantship, I was also able to qualify for loans and then like my teaching assistantship would pay for rent and some credit card bills or whatever else I had to pay. And then I would use the student loans to pay for, like, if I wanted to visit my family, if I have to travel to conferences, if I have to buy food, if I want to go eat up food with my friends, everything else was covered by the loans.

Fern (08:51): And then the pro of the fellowship is the time flexibility, because I’m just doing research. I don’t have to do a teaching assistantship. And sometimes, uh, just working with professors and instructors can be a great experience and sometimes not such a great experience, and you never know who you’re gonna get and if it’s gonna be a more stressful term in comparison to the previous one. So having the time flexibility to do research on my own time and work on my own projects and get paid for that is amazing. It’s also more money, but the cons is, it’s, um, it’s weirdly coded this grant, I think there’s only like three universities in the, in the United States that have this type of fellowship. And it’s coded so that it counts the tuition reimbursement as part of the fellowship that we receive. So it counts as salary. So we no longer qualify for loans because we’re making too much money.

Fern (09:44): So beyond our monthly stipend, that tuition money was also, it also looked like from the tax perspective, from the, uh, government’s perspective, that that money goes to us instead of it going to the university for tuition. So I no longer qualify for student loans at the moment. So that’s why I waited my three years until I was at a place where I had like, I could afford rent and I had paid off all my debt so that I could actually take out this fellowship and not have to rely on student loans, which was always my goal to only take out loans for two to three years, and then not for the last two years of my program.

Emily (10:17): I see. So it sounds like you actually had a degree of agency over when you had one position versus another, so you could kind of coordinate that with your personal finances. Um, I haven’t heard of that before. I, I guess I’m more accustomed to people like sort of being, um, the timing of fellowships happening just based on like your timing in your program or something like that, or like when you happen to win it. Um, but that sounds really, really smart that you worked on your personal finances while you had access to those loans. Um, before switching over, I’m a little surprised to hear that you don’t have access to loans anymore, but I don’t know.

Fern (10:50): Yeah.

Emily (10:50): I don’t know all the details about it, so.

Fern (10:52): It’s so weird.

Emily (10:52): I’m sure you’ve been through the technical specifications.

Fern (10:54): Yeah, it was, it was a whole thing because I actually got it offered my second year and I said, yeah, I’ll take it. And then I found out, they didn’t let me know it was miscommunication. I found out that I couldn’t qualify for loans anymore and I had to tell my advisor like, Hey, I, I didn’t know about this and I can no longer afford anything if I can’t take a loan. So they had to switch me back to being a TA ship. So after that I was like, okay, next time I, if I do switch back to a fellowship, I wanna be more conscious and in a good place where I can actually take advantage of that.

Emily (11:24): Hmm. Yeah, I think the generalizable like, you know, lesson here for the audience is just to be really, um, heavily consider how these different types of funding are going to affect your personal finances. Whether it’s, you know, the tax implications, whether it’s the student loan implications, whether it’s the increasing amount of take home income, decreased amount of take home income, and just as, as best you’re able to, like you did, um, exert, you know, agency in this process and or prepare on the personal finance side for the changes that are upcoming so that you’re not caught. I mean, what would you have done, like if you had to, had to accept this fellowship? Couldn’t afford everything, couldn’t take out student loans? Well, we’re gonna talk more about how you’ve like, um, made the budget balance. Um, in a moment. But yeah, it would’ve been a harder financial position for sure.

Fern (12:08): Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s very important for people who are in grad school and are considering one versus the other to look into, like you said, taxes, student loans, and just asking all the questions to their advisor regarding these things. I think that, uh, supervisor support is very important if you have a supervisor who’s transparent about the process and helping you to the best of their capabilities on everything that entails going into a fellowship versus having a regular, uh, teaching assistantship, um, with all that stuff.

Side Jobs During the PhD Program

Emily (12:38): Yeah. Um, did you also have a side job at any point during these four years?

Fern (12:45): Yeah, I worked my first two years and, you know, as I was like in college I had two jobs and I was going to the gym at five in the morning and it’s like, yeah. But I was also 18, 20 years old. It’s very different, uh, than going to grad school. Grad school is a different beast. So I had a job for the first two years I was working in the restaurant industry, which is what inspired my thesis topic. And it was really stressful because, you know, I don’t know if you remember what your first two years were like, but it would take me four hours to read like a 20 page article because the content is so dense and so difficult and so different from just a textbook. So I was spending my time with the four hours, uh, classes per week and two classes, uh, for every week.

Fern (13:33): And then also on top of that, reading the articles. And then on the weekends I was working. So I was just exhausted all the time. I was burnt out. It, yeah. I wasn’t great for my health, so I decided on my second year to quit. And then on my third year, again, before I moved to Portland, I decided to get a job to be able to afford to move to Portland. So I started working back in the restaurant industry. So a lot of respect for restaurant employees because that industry’s always there when we need it, but it’s definitely a sacrifice. The quality of my work and the quality of my health did decline, but it’s also a trade off of then I can have more money that is not, that I don’t have to give back to the government.

Emily (14:16): Hmm. Yeah, I mean, because you were, you had the stipend, you had the student loan, um, kind of bridge coming in and you had the side work. You really had to find that balance among all three of those things in which funding source is most appropriate and how much energy would you have to use and so forth. So, um, that’s really tricky. And since you’ve switched over to the fellowship, it sounds like you haven’t been working on the side, right? With the higher income?

Fern (14:40): No, I did hold a, so this was another opportunity that just came to me and follow my lab. This student recently graduated and her and I just had a really good working relationship and worked on a lot of projects together. So she really liked my work ethic, so she recommended me to do a summer internship that she had to turn down and that worked great for me. So I was doing analysis for the university factor analysis where they wanted to reduce the items in a course evaluation scale. And that was awesome because I was able to make a couple extra, like 2000 that month or that summer. Uh, so opportunities like that arise as I progress through the program and I become more skilled. Like now I’m at the point that with my master’s I can get an internship and that’s a lot more money than any part-time job can give me. Right. Um, so opportunities come and go. And also it’s just every year is different and just have to adapt and find ways to make the finances work.

Using SNAP (Food Stamps) During the PhD Program

Emily (15:35): Yeah, I like that you pointed that out. Like as you progress in your program, you become more skilled, you become more knowledgeable, there are different opportunities that come up for you. I’m like, you, you’ve probably heard me say on the podcast before, but I’m like a big advocate of people, um, being paid a high hourly rate as much as they can. And that probably means employing your unique skills that you’re developing inside of academia, maybe inside of academia, maybe outside of academia. So in addition to the stipend from the assistantship and the fellowship in addition to the student loans for some time, in addition to the side work, I understand that you also relied on government programs for a period of time. Can you tell us more about the types of programs that you accessed and what they did for you?

Fern (16:14): Yes. So I need to give credit again to the cohort that came after me because I was like, oh, I’m just stuck in this. And some people mentioned food stamps, but I went into the snap and SNAP is, I don’t know what it stands for, but it’s the Food Stamps Assistance program. And they said that graduate students didn’t qualify and I didn’t look further into it. I was like, okay, I just don’t qualify. Undergrads do, but graduates don’t for whatever reason. And then the cohort after me said, yeah, you do qualify. I’m on it. And I had never been on food stamps before and I also had this perception that food stamps was for people that were very low income and really needed it and were like below the poverty level. And I was, I’m a grad student so I can still rely on my parents if I need to.

Fern (16:56): So I just didn’t see myself in that realm. But if anything, once they told me that they were on it and I could apply for it, and I applied and I got it and I got an extra $200 a month to be able to pay for groceries, it was great. And it just gave me a lot of independence and freedom and just a lot of relief for my expenses because sometimes if I have to pay for conferences and I have to pay my bills and everything else, then I would just buy less food. And with the food stamps it’s like, oh, now I can afford it. And also relying on the food pantry at my university. And a lot of us got on food stamps. And what’s also great about this program is that at, at least in Portland, they’re very supportive of the arts.

Fern (17:38): So if you show your EBT card, which is how you pay for the food stamps, I a lot, I thought it was actual stamps, it’s not actual stamps. It’s like they give you like a little debit card and they refill it every month with X amount of dollars that they give you every month. And like it never expires until you no longer qualify for the program. But if you show your EBT card, then you can also get $5 entries to like museums and opera concerts and ballet concerts. So it’s great also for that experience if you also can’t afford hobbies and to get out there and have um, things to do, it also brings that option on the table.

Emily (18:12): Um, so I wanna follow up on two pieces to that for the first is the mindset. Um, this is not for people like me. But you mentioned you were making a thousand dollars a month. Yeah. Like that’s not a lot of money in an expensive city. Yeah. As you mentioned. So like, I, I’m glad that you brought up like the fluctuating expenses too, because you might think in a given month, I don’t have any problems paying for food this month. So I don’t need this program. But then the next month you have an unexpected expense that comes up. And like you said, the food is like the variable thing that can get sacrificed that month and it’s just not a position that you want to be in. It’s better to be precautionary, take all the benefits that you’re eligible for, um, use them to the fullest extent, and then have more reserves to be able to build up for those unexpected, um, expenses that might come up. So I’m really glad that you mentioned this and that and that you did take advantage. I want to learn more about, okay. You initially read grad students weren’t eligible, then you found out that you were, what, what changed? What was the difference?

Fern (19:07): I don’t know. I didn’t ask. I just, I just applied. I told them how much I made and they said yes. I, I don’t know if it’s one of those things where it’s like, we’re gonna look the other way. Um, it’s just graduate students are in this unique position where we’re students, but we’re employees and the taxes are different. And like, I’m not poor, but I’m below the poverty line, but I have an iPhone. So it’s really weird mindset and like thing to get into. And also this, like, I don’t wanna take resources from the people that really need it, but also I qualify for these resources. So it’s this like weird situation that I had to just get over and be like, just apply if they say no, no. Which eventually they did say no once I got my fellowship and I now I make too much money for them.

Fern (19:55): Um, but yeah, I think it’s important that if there’s resources out there, if it’s food stamps and this and that, I was like, oh my God, I can’t believe I’m gonna be on food stamps. And I was like, no, this is great. I love ’em. I can go to $5 Chinese gardens and explore. It’s something that otherwise I wouldn’t be able to afford because it’s too expensive and I can afford food, which is great, and I don’t have to stress out about buying that. And it’s nice because it’s an allocated amount of money that’s specific for groceries. I cannot go and spend it on anything else. So yeah, I, I don’t know what was different in the application process. The website says that I shouldn’t have qualified, but I did qualify. So worked out for me.

Emily (20:34): I like that approach of just like, make them tell you no. Just, just apply, just push if they say no. Okay. You weren’t any worse off than you were beforehand, but hey, they said yes. And like again, credit to that cohort behind you for like experimenting with this and just pushing for it and helping everybody by, you know, sharing what they found out.

Fern (20:54): Yeah, definitely. They’re, they helped change my mindset and they’re helping change the program for the better.

Using Medicaid for Health Insurance During the PhD Program

Emily (21:00): I love it. Okay. So were there any other public benefits that you’ve been taking advantage of?

Fern (21:05): Yeah, the, I can’t remember the difference between Medicare and Medicaid, but I’m on that and that’s for health insurance. Portland State University has mandatory health insurance, so this is crazy. One thing that I don’t like about my university is that if you don’t have health insurance, they automatically enroll you in the university’s health insurance, which is very expensive. It’s like 300 a month. And that’s a little ridiculous to me because if you can’t afford to have health insurance, then they get you on their expensive health insurance. And yeah, it’s, it’s weird. I appreciate the aspect of wanting to keep the overall community healthy, but at the same time as employees wouldn’t qualify for health insurance from the university whereas other universities do. So I, uh, decided to apply for the, uh, Obamacare and again, I qualified for that and I have it and it’s in Oregon. It’s actually great. It’s a, it’s completely free for me and I have a really great doctors and a really good network of doctors. I was able to go to the dentist after like five years of not being able to afford it. So another great benefit to use.

Emily (22:12): Yeah, absolutely. I mean it’s so common. All universities require that their students have health insurance. Um, it’s unfortunate. It sounds like their internal option is, is unaffordable, like you said for the students, but, um, it’s so great. Obviously this is a very state by state thing, but great that Oregon has a robust exchange and with your income and everything you were able to qualify at that, um, it sounds like zero premium, right? Yeah. So that’s immediate. Yeah. And another great thing to look into.

Fern (22:38): Yeah. And it’s like above a percentage of the poverty level. So you can be, I think 200% above the poverty level and still qualify in Oregon, but it varies by state.

Commercial

Emily (22:49): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Changes to Budgeting Throughout Graduate School

Emily (23:41): Now you mentioned to me that the way you budget has changed throughout graduate school. We’ve already seen some hints of that in the changing of the funding and the different, you know, sources of income and so forth. But can you tell us about how you used to budget and then how you budget now?

Fern (23:55): Yeah, so the simple storyline is that I didn’t budget. I was just have my money and spend it and not know where it went. And I would get my, uh, student loans and I would put half of them ’cause I get them per term. So every three months. Um, so I would put half of them on my savings accounts. That was not a high yield savings account, so they was just sitting there doing nothing. And then I would just keep the rest of my, uh, checking accounts and just hope that the number didn’t get to, to zero. So try to keep it as high as possible, but no idea where my money was going, how much money I was spending, and how what my stable fixed expenses looked like every month. And then finally what my advisor offered the fellowship and she’s like, Hey, you should go on this fellowship.

Fern (24:42): I was like, oh, I don’t know. I can’t do student loans. I have to look into it. And at the time I had moved in with my partner and I was like, well, my rent is about to be cheaper. My, I have, I’m on food stamps, so my groceries about to be cheaper, so maybe I can afford it, but I’m not sure. So this is where the scientists mindset came in. It’s like, okay, I need objective data to look at my situation and make an informed decision. So that’s when I had a breakdown for what I first did is track my expenses for a month. And that’s when I realized like, oh, I go to the grocery, like I buy little snacks here and there way too much and I’m spending too much at the bars and why am I buying shoes that I can’t afford?

Fern (25:19): And that was like a wake up call for me. So then I decided to look at my fixed expenses and see what that looks like and see if I had any money left over for me to have a decent living because again, I couldn’t take out student loans and I didn’t wanna take on an extra job to protect my wellbeing and my mental health. So if my remaining balance after all my fixed expenses was something like a hundred, that’s just not realistic. That’s just not enough. Especially right now with inflation, everything’s very expensive. So if there was an emergency, anything, I wouldn’t have been able to do it. So it’s like, okay, first thing I need to do is set up my emergency savings. And then I started learning about finances and I was like, okay, I need a high yield savings account so that the money that I have extra is not just sitting there. It’s actually like accumulating interest. And I started doing that and now I know exactly how much I spend on what each month. I know how much I have left over each month. And it’s, yeah, it’s a really good feeling.

Emily (26:16): I’m, I’m so glad to hear about that positive kind of transformation. Um, it sounds like your income source is changing is what really prompted you. You knew you weren’t gonna have that cushion of the student loans, so like you had to get more granular about what was going on in your finances.

Fern (26:30): I’ve always been pretty good at not spending and saving, but now I wanna take it to the next step and make my money work for me. So investing in a a retirement account and knowing what I’m spending on and being more essential with like my buckets of money of like skincare makes me really happy. So I wanna spend more on that and I don’t wanna eat out as much, so I’m cooking a lot more now. So I wanna be a lot smarter with my money beyond just saving and not spending.

Using a Researcher Mindset With Personal Finances

Emily (26:56): Now you mentioned earlier kind of taking, um, the, the researcher’s approach actually looking at the data, um, to figure out where your spending was going and what you would, you really started budgeting, like what were you going to be able to afford? Were you going to be able afford to switch onto this fellowship given the new rent, given all the other changes that were going on? Um, are there any other ways that you’ve employed this like researcher mindset within your personal finances? Aside from setting up the budget?

Fern (27:21): I mean beyond finding you and your account. You know, ’cause my, my friend Morgan always says this to me every time I’m like, oh, I need to do something really hard. And she’s like, you’re getting a PhD, you can do anything. It’s like, you’re right. Like I know how to investigate, I know how to learn. I need to start doing that. So I remember I wanted to get more broad skill sets with data analysis and I was like, well, Excel is always required, so I’m gonna learn how to use Excel. So I’m gonna use a nice spreadsheet as an excuse to learn Excel. And my excuse to do that is gonna be by budgeting. So I have this like really fancy spreadsheet that has formulas that are connected through different tabs and different cells. And I really learned how to use Excel for my advantage and use, uh, data visualization to look like my most expense categories.

Fern (28:09): And I have different percentages for everything. And it’s, yeah. And with that is just learning how to use Excel. So looking at tutorials and then actually doing the work, which is a lot of what we have to do as PhDs when our advisors don’t know how to use something in SPSS and no one else knows how to do it. And you just have to learn how to use an SPSS macro yourself. Um, and then learning the lingo. So like, okay, if I wanna go beyond saving and uh, start investing, what does that look like and what does that mean? And where does it start looking at the experts? Kind of like when you’re doing a lit review and you just have no idea what the topic is about. So you have to read a bunch of articles until you get an like a, an an understanding of what that topic is.

Fern (28:53): It’s the same skill sets can be applied to budgeting and knowing where your money goes and then just implementing that behavioral change. Whenever we write our research articles, and at least in psychology, we always try to make practical recommendations of what organizations can do with the research findings that we have. It’s like, okay, how can we expect other people to follow these behaviors that we’re suggesting to do if we can’t follow the own behaviors that we are learning from budgeting and all these other behavioral things. ’cause also saving money and spending money is very psychological, right? So just the same skills that we learn on research can be applied to anything in particular right now talking about budgeting.

Emily (29:37): I love it. I love the way you articulated that and that mindset and kind of going back to the beginning of what you said, like where your friend Morgan has been telling you. Um, I totally agree and I never like felt so, um, accomplished or like expansive in my person as I did like right after I defended, like I literally felt like I was like on top of a mountain. Like I can do, I finished the, like I finished my dissertation, I defended it, it’s done. I literally can do anything I put my mind to. And even though personal finances are challenging in psychological ways and logistical ways and all that, um, like you said, when you take, I mean all, everyone who gets into a PhD program is so capable and so talented and so smart. And like if you just decide to apply what you card kind of already innately can do in these other areas of your life to your personal finances, like you’re going to be successful. It’s just a matter of time. Yeah. It’s a matter of time and a matter of increasing that income eventually when you get out of graduate school. So eventually. Um, I just love that approach.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (30:32): Well Fern, would you like to wrap up now by telling us your best financial advice for another early career of PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Fern (30:43): Advice. Oh my God, I don’t know if I have any advice. I just feel like advice is so like personal individualized, but I have like a thought that just occurred to me both with what you were saying is that a lot of new PhDs have this huge, especially underrepresented PhDs, you know, women, women of color or people from like low socioeconomic backgrounds whose parents never went, uh, to college or immigrants. It’s, there’s this huge imposter syndrome that we start with. There’s like, oh, I’m not supposed to be here. And now looking back, I think if like the Fern first year Fern saw met with the Fern right now, fourth year Fern, she would be like, oh my God, that girl is so smart and I’ll just never be like her. And like, you know, that is me. So I think it’s really important to understand that it imposter syndrome is just your social comparison of where you think you need to get and where you are.

Fern (31:38): And it’s all about learning. The only way to get over that imposter syndrome is to actually do and increase our self-efficacy and our belief that we can do these things. So just it, and that can apply to anything, right? With budgeting, it’s like, it’s not this imposter syndrome of like, I have to have X amount of money in order to be successful. It’s like you just have to learn how to budget and learn those skills and just do it. And then once you feel confident about it, that imposter syndrome will just eventually dissipate and just pass on that knowledge to people who are just getting started.

Emily (32:09): And that ties in back so well with what we were talking about with like the social programs that you learned about from like your peers and everything. Just not counting yourself out as like, oh, I’m not the type of person who should be doing this at this stage. Yes you are. These programs are designed for you at this current stage. You’re not gonna use them forever. It’s gonna be a temporary thing, but it’s really gonna help you get your feet under you, you know, and you only needed to be on them for, you know, two, three years and now you have this fantastic fellowship and like things are so different in your finances now, just, just after the passage of a little bit of time and a little bit of change of income sources. So again, I’m so glad that you share these, these tips and these insights with the audience. Um, thank you so much for volunteering to come on and being so transparent and I really think people got a ton outta this interview, so thank you.

Fern (32:50): I hope so. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Outtro

Emily (33:03): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Addressing Fellowship Tax Pain Points through Education, Resources, and Advocacy

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In this episode, Emily interviews Jack Mao, the founder of Tax Fellows, a nonprofit organization that prepares pro bono tax returns for Stanford students. Tax Fellows primarily serves first-generation, low-income undergraduate and graduate students, and has a special focus on the tax implications of receiving scholarships and fellowships, such as the Kiddie Tax and estimated tax payments. Jack shares the advocacy approach he’s taking to reform the Kiddie Tax at the federal level and lists ideas for how graduate students across the US can bring more attention and resources to resolve their tax pain points.

Links mentioned in the Episode

Addressing Fellowship Tax Pain Points through Education, Resources, and Advocacy

Teaser

Jack (00:00): Where students aren’t being told to expect significant tax liability on their stipend checks and like making sure that they save money for taxes. There’s no, you know, mechanisms like withholdings where the schools will pay the taxes on the students’ behalf. And so the students just kinda have to like figure it out and learn the hard way during their first tax season. And I feel like, you know, that’s not really the way to go. That there definitely needs to be a lot more resources across all the universities in the country to really help educate these students on their tax liability and really help support them through it as well.

Introduction

Emily (00:54): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:24): This is Season 17, Episode 7, and today my guest is Jack Mao, the founder of Tax Fellows, a nonprofit organization that prepares pro bono tax returns for Stanford students. Tax Fellows primarily serves first-generation, low-income undergraduate and graduate students, and has a special focus on the tax implications of receiving scholarships and fellowships, such as the Kiddie Tax and estimated tax payments. Jack shares the advocacy approach he’s taking to reform the Kiddie Tax at the federal level and lists ideas for how graduate students across the US can bring more attention and resources to resolve their tax pain points.

Emily (02:04): The tax year 2023 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. You’ll hear me reference this workshop once or twice during the interview. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. Go to PFforPhDs.com/taxreturnworkshop/ to read more details and purchase the workshop. By the way, it’s never too early to start laying the groundwork for university sponsorship. If taxes are a pain point for you, please let the administration at your university know that you would like them to provide additional resources either during next tax season or near the beginning of the academic year, as Jack suggests near the end of the interview. I can license one or both of my asynchronous workshops or deliver a live seminar. Please cc me ([email protected]) if you decide to recommend me! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e7/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Jack Mao of Tax Fellows.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:40): I have a really special guest joining me on the podcast today. His name is Jack Mao and I’m going to let him introduce himself to you further in just a second. I just wanna say how we got connected, which is that I have been working with Stanford this past tax season to provide my tax workshop to their graduate students and postdocs, and Jack started an organization at Stanford called Tax Fellows. The more serves on the undergraduate side, but definitely some overlapping, um, interests in populations between our two. And so because of our mutual collaborators at Stanford, we got to talking and just had an absolutely fascinating conversation and I knew that I had to bring him onto the podcast. So Jack, we’re gonna get into your whole background, but just really briefly, can you tell us who you are and what you’re up to right now?

Jack (04:23): Sure. Uh, thank you so much for having me on the podcast here, Emily. Um, my name’s Jack. I am, I was a Stanford student, uh, until recently. And, um, I’ve been also a credentialed tax professional, uh, federally credentialed for the past, uh, couple years, but in the industry for about six years so far. Um, and yeah, it serves a lot of, um, you know, college students, that’s kind of my strong suits and so it was natural for me to just kind of start Tax Fellows, uh, in partnership with the IRS and few Stanford offices to help out other college students with their taxes.

Emily (04:58): Yeah, and this is a really unique organization. I haven’t found one like it at any other universities I’ve collaborated with. So I wanna hear more about that. But first I wanna get a little more background on you, Jack, and sort of how as an undergraduate student you became interested in income tax and ultimately, you know, that led you to starting Tax Fellows.

Jack (05:16): Sure, sure. So, um, my background is actually in computer science and so totally different than, you know, tax, um, and accounting. But, um, it was back in high school I was, um, so I come from a low-income background and I was trying to start a small business to help out with family finances. Um, and at the time I just had, you know, my McDonald’s paychecks to pay for everything, which wasn’t really enough to, you know, pay for, uh, you know, accountants or, uh, lawyer’s advice. So what I did was, yeah, it’s a good CS major or do just Google everything. Uh, would not recommend unless you plan on switching ma- uh, you know, majors in industries, um, or careers. But, um, yeah, um, Google, everything. Really loved. Uh, just the way the taxes works, you know, I hate paying taxes, but it’s just, you know, it allows you to have a lot of creativity and flexibility and kind of, uh, finding ways to get around taxes you don’t really want to pay, uh, at times. Uh, and so that was really fun. I really want, uh, go more into it and to decide to volunteer with the IRAs VITA program, um, that works with nonprofits, uh, to provide free tax services to income taxpayers. So been, uh, in that program ever since, uh, and still am in that program, uh, through Tax Fellows today.

Volunteer Income Tax Assistance (VITA) Program & TaxFellows

Emily (06:37): So can you explain a little bit more what the connection is between the VITA Program and Tax Fellows? Is it exactly the same? Is there, is there more to it?

Jack (06:45): Sure. So, um, originally we started out just as a VITA site. And so Tax Fellows is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, it’s a standalone nonprofit, um, that’s separate from Stanford, but we partner with the IRS, where the IRS helps us provide some training, some overhead and, you know, oversight, um, and helps us source a lot of our volunteers as well. Um, but now, now that Tax Fellows, um, has finished their first year and joined to our second tax season, uh, we have been expanding our programs a little bit, um, to also provide a additional pro bono, um, program called Tax Advisors, where we have our credential tax professionals, um, on a team prepare more complicated tax returns for undergrad students with kiddie tax, uh, obligations, uh, just because that is something that is outside the scope of VITA program. Um, and so we couldn’t prepare those in the past. So we kind of are in a way, um, half pro, uh, VITA sites and half a kind of a pro-bono tax in a sense. Um, and so, uh, but you know, we do have a pretty good partnership with the IRS and a few, uh, good stakeholders in the area.

Emily (07:59): And just for the listeners who aren’t familiar with VITA, maybe they’ve never been to, you know, access to services that are available to them at their university or their library in their city or whatever, can you explain like who that program is for?

Jack (08:10): Sure. So Tax Fellows, um, is, uh, or just VITA program in general, um, is for low income taxpayers, um, who might want some, you know, additional help with their taxes, um, but, you know, um, might not be able to afford say, a tax professional. Um, and so VITA sites, they are run by nonprofits at IRS, uh, partners with, uh, usually and, um, they’re staffed by volunteers, many of whom are credential professionals or retired professionals, but a lot of whom are also just newer, um, folks to the industry who want to get some more experience. That was kind of how I got my experience, um, with taxes and, uh, just kind of, uh, having the IRS, you know, train them, uh, on the volunteers on, you know, these basic tax topics so that they can, um, help prepare your tax returns for you, uh, at no charge. Um, these are all out of the volunteers, uh, generosity, um, of their time. And so, um, but it’s a really great program, um, with a lot of guardrails so that, you know, um, the quality control is usually pretty high. Um, and, um, yeah, yeah, definitely a really great program for anyone who makes under around $64,000 every year, um, and have fairly simple, uh, situations, uh, to get their taxes done, uh, really great and for free. So

Emily (09:39): I’m so glad you mentioned that number. ’cause in a lot of the country people are making less than that amount of money, so it really covers, yeah, a broad swath of people, especially my population graduate students, even some postdocs will fall under that, um, level of income. So they can almost always, if they have a VITA site available to ’em, access those services. And I’m really glad you just mentioned, you know, there’s, there’s guardrails there. Um, there’s only, you have to have a simple tax situation to really benefit. And that’s why you mentioned earlier that you started this tax advisors wing of tax fellows. Let’s talk a little bit more about some of these like confusing tax issues that may be common between like the first generation low income population that you serve, and then the funded graduate students and potentially postdocs population that, uh, that I serve.

The Kiddie Tax

Emily (10:22): So you, you mentioned the kiddie tax, um, let’s brief overview right now about what the kiddie tax is for anybody who has the, uh, misfortune of hearing about this for the first time.

Jack (10:32): Yeah. Yeah. So, um, kiddie tax originally, um, the inspiration behind that, uh, on the legislation side was, you know, a lot of these high net worth individuals, uh, your parents especially would, you know, have pretty high marginal tax rates. What they would do is, you know, have tax professionals who would kind of find all these little loopholes. And one of them is, you know, they could just pass along their investments to their children who are basically making no money, right? Uh, especially if they’re a minor. That way they could both save on taxes, Congress didn’t like that. Um, and so they implement kiddie tax where if, uh, the child is a minor, uh, or a full-time student who didn’t, uh, you know, earn, uh, from a job, uh, so earned income, um, more than half of their living expenses, then they’re considered basically, in a sense a soft dependent of their parents.

Jack (11:33): And so any unearned income that the child has now, uh, will be taxed at their parents’ highest tax rate. Um, and so, uh, that way, you know, the richer parents can’t just pass on their investments, uh, through their children because they’ll be tax rate basically. Um, unfortunately the way Congress defined kiddie tax, um, was very broad. And so it also encompasses, you know, college students who have, you know, taxable scholarship, financial aid, uh, you know, fellowships where, uh, you know, if they don’t have earned income from a job that’s more than half of their expenses, especially at, you know, Stanford where cost of tuition and like the, um, the room board are like an 80 to a hundred thousand dollars every year, uh, if not more. And so the student, not only do they have to like work a, you know, um, full-time job, you know, making more than 50 K to get outta it, uh, it is just a lot of qualifications and so too much complexity. Um, and that’s kind of, um, one of the biggest reasons why, um, we’re so popular at Stanford as while just helping students navigate, uh, through all this complexity.

Emily (12:52): Yeah, that makes sense. And this hits my population all the time. When you’re receiving a fellowship, one of the things about the calculation that goes into the kiddie tax is that your expenses include your education expenses and not just like your living expenses. So that scholarship that goes towards paying your tuition, the cost counts as part of your living expenses, but the scholarship that pays for it doesn’t count on like your side of the ledger of like providing half of your own support. Exactly. Exactly. So, right, so like they get hit with this fellowship, um, issue too. Now, what was interesting about the kiddie tax, I think I read into like the history of this and it seemed like there was like a creep going on. Like at first it was just minors, then it was up to age 19, then it was now it’s students, um, up, up, up until, you know, through age 23, under age 24.

Emily (13:34): And so over time it kind of like expanded and expanded. Um, but there was a reform a few years ago with the Tax Cuts and Jobs act that attempted to, um, make some changes to the kiddie tax. Mm-Hmm . And it really hit your population, that low income population because what they did was they, for a couple of years changed the definition so that, um, no longer were you taxed at your parents’ highest marginal tax rate, but you were taxed at the marginal tax rate for trusts, which simplified things certainly because you would just look at a table and see where you fell on that instead of having to, you know, link your tax return with your parents. But if your parents were low income to begin with, maybe that kiddie tax was not so big of a bite. Now, if your parents were high income, of course it was a big bite, but because it really, really increased those marginal tax rates on those low income populations, there was a big outcry. And after a couple of years, I think it got shifted back to the old model of go to your parents’ tax rate. So that was, yeah, just some interesting like shifts that happened with end time. But yeah. Yeah, the kiddie tax is a very unpleasant thing to find out about.

Commercial

Emily (14:33): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Paying Estimated Taxes as a Graduate Student

Jack (15:38): Oh yeah. So, uh, especially for like first year grad students, uh, who have like a lot of taxable stipends ’cause they get like stipend checks, uh, usually and, you know, they would owe a pretty significant amount of taxes. Uh, and so to, to a point that they definitely need to pay estimated taxes, not only like to avoid the underpayment penalty, but also to, uh, just not be surprised at the tax bill end the year and try to like, try to recoup all the money, um, to pay, uh, substantial tax liability. And so, uh, we’ve been educating, um, grad students, um, as they come in, especially the first year grad students, uh, kind of how to pay estimate taxes. ‘Cause we also have California and they have like, their kind of special snowflake. They have like very, um, specific percentages, um, where it’s like 30%, 40%, 0%, 30% for like, the amount of estimated taxes that need to be paid.

Jack (16:31): Federal is like pretty straightforward. It’s just one fourth of the tax every quarter. Um, but just kind of educating students on like how to pay those, uh, payments, trying to figure out, um, how much to pay. Uh, and then kind of repercussions if they don’t, uh, pay as many taxes. ’cause you know, uh, students they could be busy and so, uh, you know, I’ll just kinda let them decide based on all the facts available, like whether um, it’s worth the effort of doing as many taxes. Usually it is, ’cause like usually if you don’t do it, um, for students that we have, um, served, their penalties are gonna be around a two, $300 range, uh, in this economy with, uh, the inflation. ’cause the penalties really based on just interest, um, and the interest rate that r assets for, you know, all, all their penalties and interests and, um, it’s just prorated across the year, uh, based on the, um, estimated tax payment you’re supposed to make, uh, from that date on, um, to the tax season. And so right now, uh, usually the past the rate was like 3% and so it wasn’t too bad, but right now the rates are in a 7% range. And so it’s definitely significant.

Emily (17:44): I found that as well that a lot of graduate students are aware of the estimated tax issue, but they just choose to not address it until tax season. And if they go into that with their eyes open, of course that’s their decision. But, uh, like you, I just try to lay out, okay, this is the trade off if you decide you’re going to neglect this.

Jack (18:01): Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (18:03): I think the real tough part is ra- facing that, you know, multi-thousand dollar tax bill that you exactly may not be prepared for.

Jack (18:10): Exactly. Because, you know, yeah. Students are also taxed on your part of the fellowship that goes to room board and room board in the Bay Area is pretty significant. Um, and so not only do students have to usually save for taxes on their stipend checks, you also have to like figure out, um, how much tax to save on housing, uh, stipends and some of the other stipends. And I feel like, you know, right now there’s not really a good way for the students in general, I feel like maybe it’s just more of a lack of re- uh, educational resources in the first place, um, where students aren’t being told, uh, to expect significant tax liability, um, on their stipend checks and like making sure that they save money for taxes. Um, there’s no, you know, mechanisms like withholdings where the schools will pay the taxes on the student’s behalf and so the students just kinda have to like figure it out, um, and learn the hard way , uh, during their first tax season. Um, and I feel like, you know, that’s not really the way to go. Uh, that there definitely needs to be a lot more resources, uh, for across all the universities, uh, in the country, uh, to really help educate these students on their tax liability and really help support them through it as well.

Emily (19:27): Yes. You know, I agree with you of course ’cause this is one of the main missions of my business, but, um, we’ll talk more about how people can sort of get more resources and get more education to their own peers, um, later on. But I just wanna add on that point. I mean, Stanford, obviously, you and I are both working with people at Stanford, so like Stanford’s obviously making a pretty, a relatively large effort in this area. Sure. Um, to get people informed about this. But I, it’s, um, I do not see this at this degree of resources being offered at many other places, which is to add, but I will tell you that there are a couple universities I went to one Duke, um, where they actually did offer income tax withholding on fellowships. I don’t know how or why it happened. I mean, the paychecks were being processed through payroll instead of through financial aid.

Emily (20:10): So there was a mechanism for doing it. Um, and it did generate a weird tax form. We got a 1099 miscellaneous instead of a, you know, 1098 t or whatever. Sure, sure. Yeah. Um, so it caused some downstream tax complications, but they did offer it. So that is something that I know is happening at some places and maybe it could happen at more places and it would certainly be easier on the students than having to engage with the estimated tax system. So Now that we’ve kind of talked about, like, you know, this example of the kiddie tax, how the kiddie taxes changed with time, um, how advocacy actually around after the pa after the passage of the Tax Cuts and Jobs act, when, you know, the tax rates were jacked up for these low income families, there was an outcry and it was reversed. I want you to give us a few examples, if you don’t mind, of Yeah. Some things that have changed within the tax law over time, uh, that relate to students, just so we can see some examples of like, this is not completely static, like these things do change.

Advocacy Around the Kiddie Tax, Taxable Scholarships, and Other Niche Financial Issues

Jack (21:02): Yeah, yeah. So, um, right now we’re actually trying to do some advocacy, uh, around the kiddie tax and the taxable scholarship arena just because, uh, it is, I’d say slightly outdated, uh, set of tax law. Um, you know, it was most recently updated back in, uh, the 1986, um, uh, tax changes. Uh, there, there were some major tax changes back then, uh, and never since, like since then, like I’d say like the, just the way scholarships and financial aid work, especially at like, you know, expensive private universities like Stanford, uh, and like the Ivy League, um, like it tuition has just gone up significantly where I don’t think it really makes sense anymore to put a lot of that tax burden on students. Um, and without any, like, you know, as you mentioned, like, uh, stu- you know, schools have to like put withholdings on a 1099 miscellaneous.

Jack (21:59): Um, so like, there’s not really like a, a mechanism say on a 1098 t or another like educational oriented form, um, to really help students, you know, save a little bit on their taxes, um, you know, having those taxes being taken out already. Uh, and so we’ve been, uh, trying to do some advocacy around their, uh, you know, the legislative side who’ve met with, um, the late Senator Feinstein’s office, uh, and representative Eshoo’s office, uh, who represents the district Stanford’s in, um, to kinda discuss about, um, you the struggles that students are going through with K tax and, uh, especially like undergrads as well, where they don’t get stipend checks really. Um, but even the in kind aid for, you know, room and board, you know, especially on top of like internship income, that is pretty significant. Uh, burden, you know, we typically see like about two, two, $3,000 of burden on in-kind aid, so money that the student never sees.

Jack (22:59): Um, and so they have to like work a, you know, good like on-campus job just to pay the tax on again, money that they never see. And so it, it’s a struggle. I mean, um, we’ve been, um, able to help the students save a little bit on taxes, you know, optimize, uh, with the parents, uh, so that we dumb it down to about, uh, a few hundred dollars, but even a few hundred dollars is pretty significant for these income students. And so we’ve been really help, um, working with in these, um, legislators, um, on, you know, ways that we can really change the tax around us. Um, and, you know, the judicial side as well, trying to poke holes and, um, kind of, uh, tax code surrounding, uh, these topics, uh, through tax court. Uh, and we might even, um, do some advisory, um, and meet with advisors through, uh, President Biden’s office, uh, very soon here. Yeah. Even on this, uh, university side as well, uh, you know, trying to get, you know, support fund going for, uh, you know, students to pay their tax liability, uh, especially in the first years where they might not expect such high liability, uh, and it would be, you know, challenging for them to pay those liability. Uh, but it’s been, it’s been tough working with Stanford, um, for now. Uh, but we’re still keeping at it and, and we’ll see kind how it goes, uh, over time. Yeah,

Emily (24:30): I think the kiddie tax is such a great example of an issue that’s right for change, just because, you know, the way you explained it earlier, which is the way that I understand this as well, is the original, um, conception of the kiddie tax was to make it less advantageous for high net worth parents to pass assets, income generating assets to their children. And that is not at all what is going on with scholarship and fellowship income. It’s, it’s perplexing to me how scholarship and fellowship income even got tied in with investment income in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. I, it’s, it’s completely baffling to me. Yeah.

Jack (25:04): Well, I mean, even with leg- legislators, uh, you have with, uh, it’s been, uh, it’s been challenging for them to just, I guess like, um, everyone has, um, like especially legislators have, you know, lots of, uh, different priorities that they need to kind of first, um, solve. And so I guess we weren’t too high on the set priority list. Uh, I mean, hopefully they’re, that they’re working on it, but, um, it, it’s, it’s, you know, a lot of politics as well. And so it’s a, it’s gonna be a long game, but, um, we we’re pretty committed to, you know, doing long-term advocacy around this, um, gonna go at it, um, as long as this is a thing, uh, and, you know, just some interesting, uh, statistics as well. So, um, you know, yeah, can tax, like, as you mentioned, like it’s definitely for, you know, these high level worth parents, uh, and their children.

Jack (25:58): And so typically the median, uh, an average income that we see for, um, you know, students or just children who have to fill out the kiddie tax form 8615, the me-, uh, the average parents income is actually in a, uh, about $1 million, uh, taxable income. A lot of these low income students, their parents are not making a million dollars . Um, and so like, yeah, this is definitely unintended consequence of the way legislators wrote the tax. Uh, and even for taxable fel- um, scholarship fellowship in general, uh, it’s heavily under-reported, uh, only about $4 billion of taxable financial scholarship and fellowship are, is being recorded. Uh, and so it, it’s, you know, it’s an area of the tax field that, you know, Congress and IRS isn’t really making a lot of money, um, in, in the first place. Uh, and so, uh, you know, using those arguments, you know, we’re hoping to really push along the change a little quicker, uh, especially ahead of the upcoming, uh, sunset of the TCJA, uh, Trump, uh, the Tax Trust and Jobs Act, uh, back when President Trump passed it, uh, just to kind of see if we can push along, um, uh, as a rider on, uh, those big tax bills that are coming up soon on the Congress side.

Jack (27:24): So, so we’ll see. We we’re, we’re definitely, uh, steadfast our commitment, uh, to advocacy here.

Emily (27:30): And I mean, I’m, I’m so excited about this and I hope you keep , keep it up and everything, and I’m just, um, I’m really inspired by like the story of how the definition of taxable compensation change for the purposes of contributing to an individual retirement arrangement. Because that also seems like a very, very tiny niche issue, right? The, the Graduate Student Savings Act to, if anyone is not familiar, it used to be that fellowship income not reported on a W2, was not eligible to be contributed to an IRA. And this was proposed, you know, federally several times in terms of the Grad Student Savings Act to change this definition so that it could be, and it failed several times until it finally got rolled in with the Secure, the Secure Act in 2019, and it was passed. And like, again, it was a thing that mattered so much to like my population, um, and it was amazing that it passed.

Emily (28:17): But yeah, that’s a really, really niche issue. And hopefully, again, some of these other niche issues like the kiddie tax can be addressed too. I actually have one more example. Yeah. So the tuition and fees deduction, they tried to eliminate that over and over and over again, and it kept being like resurrected year after year. It’s finally gone now. But again, for the listeners who were not in graduate school, maybe a few years back, yeah, there are currently three higher education tax benefits, but there used to be four available. The fourth one was the tuition fees deduction. Yeah. And it was the least useful and valuable one, and it ended up, I mean, the reasoning why they kept a congress kept trying to sort of sunset that particular de deduction was that it ultimately just confused people more. And so people would take the tuition fees deduction Mm-Hmm. when really one of the credits, for example, might have been better for their tax liability overall. Mm-Hmm. . So my understanding was it was causing more confusion and they just eliminated it. And it, it kind of sounds bad to like, oh, eliminate a deduction that was available to you, but really there were better ones avail better credits available. Yeah. Yeah. So that was another, I just kept watching it year after year being like, okay, it’s finally gonna die. No, they brought it back again, finally. Now it is gone.

Jack (29:24): No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s definitely confused. Uh, so the students I’ve served in the past as well, um, and like there’s just, I think there’s a lot of different ways Congress is, uh, trying to help with education expenses, uh, through tax code, but, uh, you know, I don’t think, you know, with the taxable financial aid, fellowship scholarship, uh, section, um, there’s definitely a lot more potential there, uh, for, uh, you know, change. And so we’re definitely, uh, um, hope that Congress can, you know, really take up our word. And there’s definitely a lot of other nonprofits like us, uh, that I’ve met with who are also advocating for same thing as well. Um, you know, typically we don’t really see audits rates that high, especially for students. But even then, you know, none of my clients have gone on in knock on wood, uh, yet.

Jack (30:16): And so, uh, but yeah, I’ve definitely heard from a lot of these other nonprofits, some of the students that we’ve been working with. You know, there’s one, uh, one of the organizations that was, uh, serving foster youths, uh, that I met with, and one of their foster youth got audited on their taxable financial aid fellowship, uh, scholarship. And the outcome is not pretty. Um, so, uh, it’s definitely, uh, one of the biggest and one of the most urgent issues that we’re trying to tackle. Um, not only on the legislative side, but also, uh, just kinda on university side as well. Just especially the, um, private institutions like Stanford and, uh, the Ivy League. They have a lot more resources that they can more easily deploy. Um, and, you know, that’s quicker than, you know, trying and, you know, make change on the, uh, policy side of things. But yeah. We’ll, we’ll see.

How Graduate Students Can Advocate for Tax Related Resources at their Universities

Emily (31:11): Do you have any ideas about how graduate students at other universities can, um, do any kind of advocacy work or just ask their university for anything that would help them sort of gain more resources or, um, education or anything that would help them on this, you know, in, in tax season to, to handle things a little bit better? So like, what can they, maybe not, of course, founding a whole organization like you did but some little things they could do at their university to get some more attention to these issues.

Jack (31:39): Yeah, that’s great. Um, I think, uh, you know, for example, let’s say your podcast and kind of your resources are great, you know, great starting point. Uh, you know, one of the partners that we’ve worked with at Mutual Partners here, uh, Mind Over Money, uh, they’ve, uh, spoke really highly of your resources. And so that’s definitely a great starting point and just kind of advocating for universities to, um, kind of, uh, provide resources and kind of distribute resources, um, across, uh, campus. But also I think like, you know, while not, you know, maybe not founding a whole, you know, uh, tax program from scratch, but, you know, if a university has a law program, uh, then definitely would recommend, you know, working with Senate faculty there, uh, to try to set up, uh, maybe in con- conjunction with United Way usually has, uh, VITA programs already set up. And so just kind of, uh, using existing infrastructure in support of, uh, VITA sites and just kind of start, you know, a small one. It could be a small one, just trying to start out, um, kind of helping other students through their taxes, um, and then trying to attract like, you know, tax professionals and lawyers to the organization.

Using Caution When Getting Tax Help as a Graduate Student

Emily (32:47): So I observed with the VITA site at Duke, um, sure. Sorry to speak against them, but, um, yeah, they were not preparing returns properly with the weird fellowship stuff that was going on at Duke. I see. So I would just say whether there is a VITA site or whether you wanna start one, make sure that they know the population that’s gonna come in and the questions that they’re going to have so that they can train their volunteers specifically towards the situations that they’re going to see Now, because of the weird way that Duke did things, like I actually understand why the mistakes that were made were made, and it might be easier at other places that don’t use the 1099 miscellaneous. Sure. Yeah. Um, but yeah, just to let them know like, Hey, I’m gonna tell all my friends to come in and like, make sure that your volunteers can do this Sure. Correctly and easily and quickly. Definitely.

Jack (33:29): Definitely. Yeah. I mean, we don’t really see a lot VITA sites and universities, uh, where we really should. But, um, even a lot of, uh, sites that I’ve seen, um, at universities, you know, I’ve kind of had a connection with Yale, um, and I wanna say, uh, UC, uh, Santa Cruz as well, uh, in California, uh, they, I I wanna say a lot of them only serve low income tax payers that are not students. Um, and like they don’t orient these services to students, which I think is a good approach, especially if they’re newer site starting out, uh, and not have a lot of those more experienced volunteers, uh, or professionals to kind of guide, you know, the volunteers. But yeah, you, you mentioned a really great point, uh, which is that like, you know, not all VITA sites and even tax professionals I’ve worked with in the past, you know, who have like decades of engineers, not all, you know, professionals or VITA sites, understand, um, kind all the ins and outs of the tax code that are relevant to students.

Jack (34:33): Uh, I’ve even had tax professionals think that, you know, taxable financial is not taxable , um, that was, that’s the you highest extreme I would say. But, uh, even just like optimizing, especially for a lot of undergrad students, optimizing, you know, the, um, you know, parts of the tax, you know, involving, you know, like tax credits, you know, deductions, you know, against their financial aid, uh, and along with their parents, you know, their parents who might be, you know, claiming for example, like the earned income tax credit, um, or the premium tax credit for health, uh, insurance or a lot of other tax credits and just like coordinate the, uh, tax credits that both the students and the parents are claiming, uh, to maximize those resources that that takes a lot of expertise, uh, to do correctly. Um, and so I definitely agree with you there.

Jack (35:25): Um, definitely do be careful, um, with, you know, starting VITA sites, uh, and with just tax professionals in general, just making sure that they actually have the expertise, um, and experience serving students, uh, in order to serve you, uh, you know, better and more accurately. And so I think our, our, uh, you know, tax fellows, um, uh, program, I’m very glad I’m able to, uh, you know, help students, uh, using their expertise. Um, and you know, we’ve been invited, uh, to train other volunteers at other VITA sites, uh, in these student tax considerations. And so, you know, if you’re thinking of starting VITA site, uh, please do reach out, uh, to us at Tax Fellows. Uh, happy to kind of, um, kinda walk you through the steps of starting VITA site, uh, and managing a VITA site, but also kinda allow of the student tax, uh, considerations that, uh, you should think about and kind of consider and, you know, we’ll do some more practice together, uh, on it too.

How Universities Can Support Graduate Students Around Taxes

Jack (36:20): But yeah, I think just in general, um, working with university administrators, uh, and the folks who, uh, you know, run orientation programs to add another orientation session might be just, you know, even if it’s just like one hour long, um, just to kind of prep students for what they should expect with taxes. You know, a lot of these like, you know, big picture, you know, policy changes, you know, like, uh, university like, just kinda like resource changes. Those take time. But I think you just adding another program to orientation, uh, for new students, that’s a really good first step that I think doesn’t take too much convincing to do and will be really effective, uh, to really help students, um, kind of foresee what they should expect at tax season, uh, so that they don’t have to, uh, you know, get surprised, you know, kind of play the game of Russian roulette and like try to, you know, guess and pray, you know, for the best I guess. Yeah.

Emily (37:31): Yeah. And I’ll just have to do a self plug because I have a session like that that’s ready to go. It’s perfect for orientations. It’s live, it’s awesome. Um, yeah, so those of you who are listening, if you, if you want me then please, you know, reach out to me, reach out to administrators at your university. But I would actually say just even back up from that, um, yeah, just talking about the issue of, or like the struggle that people that you’re having with your either preparing your tax return or dealing with your estimated tax or whatever it is, just telling the faculty and the administration that you have concerns about this and you want them to provide resources to you is very, very helpful. Um, because a lot of universities are super reticent to touch taxes with a 10 foot pole because of perceived liability issues on their end. Now it’s kind of funny because they, they do help international students to a great degree. They don’t usually offer the same kind of help for domestic students. Um, but if you tell them repeatedly and get a lot of people to tell them that you want more resources around this, then that’s, I think, the best they can figure out how they want to meet that need. But just letting them know that that need is there, that that concern is there is a wonderful first step.

Jack (38:34): Definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (38:36): Okay. So Jack, thank you so much for giving this interview. It’s been wonderful to speak with you. Yeah, thank you so much. And I want to end with our last question. Sure. Which is, what is your best financial advice for a funded graduate student or an early career PhD? And it can be something related to taxes if you want. It could be something that we’ve talked about during the interview, or it could be something completely different.

Jack (38:56): IRAs, I cannot emphasize enough how important and just like life changing that IRAs could be. Um, you know, there’s definitely, you know, for, you know, especially grad students, uh, PhD students, uh, you know, once you, you graduate, you, you might go into academia, but if you go into industry, uh, where you’re getting paid, you know, six figure salaries out-, out the door, it’s gonna be, you know, you could still contribute to say like a Roth IRA, but uh, it’s gonna be a bit more difficult and there’s like backdoor stuff to consider. But um, you know, now is the best time for a lot of, you know, grad students with their income level to contribute to Roth IRA while they still can, uh, easily. And you know, once the money is in, it’s a basically tax free, um, forever, uh, you could invest in, you know, stocks, you know, um, even occasionally startups, if that’s kind of your thing.

Jack (39:58): You know, I’m a little biased. I, I, I’m running a startup and like Stanford really good on startups, but, uh, you, that’s how you know folks like for example, Peter Thiel, um, have, you know, so much money that’s tax free is because he was able to contribute while he was, um, having lower uh, amounts of income in his early days. Uh, and then, you know, once the money’s in, there’s a lot of flexibility, uh, and ways to really help maximize your investments. Uh, while at the same time not having to kind of hinder the compounding growth of this investments with tax payments, yet I have to make, um, you know, on like dividends or interest or whatever. And so, yes, definitely Roth RAs is big and like, you know, lot students are also younger as well. And so the growth potential for those Roth IRAs across, you know, 46 years is gonna be huge. Uh, and so definitely do look into Roth IRAs as soon as you can contribute as much as you can, uh, ’cause you know, later down the line, uh, your future self will definitely thank you for it.

Emily (41:04): Absolutely could not agree more. My current self, thanks my grad student self were contributing to my Roth IRA back then. Not to put an even finer point on it, you know, as a graduate student you’re probably in the 12% federal marginal tax bracket and you may never see that one again. you maybe exactly, you know, above that for the rest of your career. So like exactly, that is the time to do it and it’s incredible and I love this advice because it’s both tax and overall financial, um, advice and it’s wonderful. And Jack, again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Jack (41:34): Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Emily. It was great, uh, chatting with you.

Outtro

Emily (41:48): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.