Podcast

This PhD Entrepreneur Advocates for Universal Basic Income (Part 2)

May 11, 2020 by Meryem Ok Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jim Pugh, the founder of ShareProgress and co-host of the Basic Income Podcast. Jim defines universal basic income and outlines how it would alleviate poverty and other social ills, including results from research and real-life experiments with basic income. He describes the possible avenues by which universal basic income could be funded and whether it would replace our existing social safety nets. Jim and Emily speculate about how universal basic income might affect higher education funding, including PhD stipends and postdoc salaries, and PhD trainees themselves.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Jim: You could basically think of this as universal basic fellowships for PhD students because I think that the dynamics that come with it very, very closely would match what it would be if you were getting a fellowship of the same size.

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode two, and today my guest is Dr. Jim Pugh, the founder of ShareProgress and cohost of The Basic Income Podcast. In this second half of our interview, Jim articulates what basic income is and how it would alleviate poverty in the United States, including results from recent research and experimentation. He describes the possible avenues by which it could be funded and whether it would replace our existing social safety nets. We speculate about how basic income might affect higher education, including PhD stipends and postdoc salaries. Without further ado, here’s the second part of my interview with Dr. Jim Pugh.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:06 Emily: We’re back now with part two of my interview with Dr. Jim Pugh. In part one, he told us all about how he started a business a few years after graduate school, which ultimately allowed him a great deal of time freedom. So, his business pays for his lifestyle, but he only works at this point about five hours a week on the business. And that has allowed him to pivot to his advocacy work around universal basic income, which is what we’re going to be hearing a lot more about today. So, Jim, thank you so much for continuing this interview with me. And we want to start off with a basic question about universal basic income because frankly, I probably would not have really heard about this except that you and I are Facebook friends. And also, we’re recording this in September, 2019 and Andrew Yang is a candidate for the democratic nomination for president. So, between those two things, I’ve kind of heard a little bit about basic income, but I would love to hear a lot more about what it actually is from you.

01:59 Jim: Sure. Well, so, just to start with the definition. A universal basic income is a policy that would provide every single person in the country with unconditional cash payments regularly–most people talk about once a month–that’s actually enough to cover basic needs. And the idea of it is that, if you were to enact this, you eradicate absolute poverty. You’re ensuring that everyone does have enough money to cover the fundamentals. And so, in some ways it’s very, very simple because it’s just giving people some cash. But in other ways, we’re potentially talking about something very radical because we would for the first time be saying, we are fully abolishing absolute poverty. We’re saying that absolutely no one in the country should be poor and that we’re going to structure our systems with that in mind. And so the ramifications of that are pretty profound as far as what does it mean for work? What does it mean for health? What does it mean for people’s general lifestyle if you’re actually establishing that fundamental financial security floor?

Benefits of Universal Basic Income (UBI)

03:12 Emily: Okay, so let’s first take the benefits–the upsides of this–and let’s leave aside, for the moment, the practicalities of it, but just to talk about the vision for what this society might be like. So, what are the benefits that people might experience maybe who are currently in poverty but would be lifted out of that through UBI? You started to talk about this a little bit at the end of the last episode. So, there’s actually been research done in this area and there’s been some experimentation. So, can you talk a little about what we know already about how this might change things for people?

03:43 Jim: Yeah, so I think there are the obvious things that we know when people are poor, they can’t afford food or at least healthy food. They may be having trouble finding somewhere to live. They may not be able to take care of themselves. So, if you’re actually ensuring that everyone is up above the poverty line through just regular cash transfers, those are all things that are addressed, first order of facts. But I think beyond that, that’s where things start to get quite interesting because we have seen more and more evidence around how poverty and financial insecurity, if not causing, are at least are greatly contributing to a lot of other issues that we’re dealing with today. And so, people when they are approaching any aspect of their life, they can either be in an abundance mentality where they think, “Okay, I have enough. I can think bigger picture.” Or a scarcity mentality where they feel constrained, which basically gives people tunnel vision that they’re only thinking about what’s right in front of them.

Abundance Mindset, Higher IQ

04:51 Jim: And that difference has huge impacts on what happens to people. So, first off, there have been studies just looking at general intelligence, and there is a substantial shift in people’s IQ level between those two different headspaces. I think it’s around one standard deviation, so about 10 IQ points, smarter when you’re in an abundance mindset as opposed to a scarcity mindset. So, you’re making better decisions. Second, as I said, when you get that tunnel vision and so it means you’re just thinking about what’s right in front of you, it basically prevents you from longterm planning. You can’t be thinking about, “What is my life going to be even a year, much less, five, 10 years down the road?” if you’re worried about, Oh, how am I going to put food on the table tonight or tomorrow? And so, it allows people and encourages people to plan better, to make better longterm decisions which has big impacts around choices on education, choices around what sort of work they pursue, and ultimately, where they do end up in five, 10 years down the road.

Scarcity Mindset Damages Mental and Physical Health

05:58 Jim: And so, beyond just being able to afford health treatments, there’s also a lot of evidence that when you’re in a scarcity mindset, when you’re in poverty, it’s extremely damaging for mental health. And also for physical health, the stress has an impact on that as well. Crime–strong, strong correlation based on people’s financial security as to whether they’re more or less likely to commit crimes. And so there’s all of these second and third order implications around how things would look in our society if we weren’t to have this absolute poverty. That’s seems incredibly promising. And so, that’s why, again, our typical approach as a society is to, when something’s going wrong, to treat the symptoms of it. And this, instead, is really saying, “Let’s actually try to take a step back, deal with some of the underlying causes, and see how much easier that makes dealing with all the rest of this stuff.”

UBI and Job Flexibility

07:00 Emily: Okay. Sounds amazing. It sounds very, very compelling. I’m wondering a little bit more about what the vision for what this society may look like, should we bring it about. You talked earlier about jobs. And so, is the idea that not as many people would need to work? There wouldn’t necessarily be as many people in jobs? Or is the idea that you would have just more freedom and flexibility around when you want to work and when you went to have further training? How does this relate to the jobs, I guess is what I’m asking?

07:28 Jim: I think much more the latter. So, the idea is not that this is something that’s going to replace jobs wholesale. I think it does allow you to pursue a more general definition of work, I would say. And so, in the sense that “job” right now means a fairly specific thing in those conversations about more like a nine to five, like ongoing, consistent workplace. This does give you additional flexibility to think a bit differently about what is the right form of work for you to be doing. So, whether that’s part-time, whether that’s taking some time to get more of an education in the area that ultimately is going to allow you to do something that you feel better about and maybe much more productive for society. Whether it’s going to give you the flexibility if you want to do some sort of family care or staying home with children or elderly folks.

UBI Facilitates Entrepreneurship

08:25 Jim: Another one is entrepreneurship. If you’re considering starting a company or doing something that, in its early stages, may not be giving you a steady paycheck–having more flexibility around that as well. So, it opens up all these doors that most folks, I would say, don’t really have access to at this point in time. As far as overall impact on how much people are working, there have actually been a number of studies on this. And what it suggests is the results vary. That there are certain situations where, when you give people regular, unconditional cash, they work more. It seems like, either through stimulating the local economy and creating jobs or by giving people that flexibility, they end up doing more work. So, Alaska for the last 40 years has actually had a universal income provided by oil in the state. And recent studies have found that the overall work rate hasn’t changed, but you see a lot more people engaging in part-time work than you have in the past. Or, certain groups, studies have found there is a decrease in work, quite consistently actually across studies. The ones where that’s only really stood out is parents with young children and teenagers, basically. And interviewing folks involved in that, it seems like the former is spending more time staying home with kids, the latter spending more time at school. So, again, it’s not captured as work in how we measure it today, but it actually is work and potentially much more pro-social work than they might otherwise be engaged in.

10:06 Emily: So, this is really reminding me of–so I have not read this book. The book is Your Money or Your Life by Vicky Robin, I want to say. And she has a coauthor. Anyway, I heard a podcast interview with her within the last few weeks and she was talking about how in our current society, like you’re saying, there’s a lot of work that is not inside a job, right? There’s a lot of work that people do in our society to further it. A lot of women do this kind of work and it’s not valued in terms of a paycheck from a job, right? That doesn’t mean it’s not contributing to society. And so, I don’t remember if they specifically talked about basic income on that podcast, but this is a way to sort of reframe what counts as work and what counts as doing something valuable with your time.

UBI and Social Safety Nets

10:51 Emily: Yeah. Okay. So, I think I’m getting you here. I have another question: would this replace the social safety nets that we have currently and expand them, I guess you could say?

11:03 Jim: So, there are mixed opinions on this amongst people who advocate for basic income. I’m actually in the camp saying that this should not initially be treated as a replacement for any social programs. And I think the reasons are: one, is that I think there is widespread recognition across the political spectrum that our social safety net is not working as well as we would like it to. You get very different opinions as to what would allow it to work as well as we would like it to. But no one is satisfied with where it’s at. I think a lot of people have talked about, “Let’s provide basic income and then just cut much, if not all, of other social programs because this will eradicate absolute poverty. Why do we need to worry about anything else?” And there are actually, I would say, a lot of edge cases here where it’s people who are dealing with some specific challenge for which cash on its own is not going to quickly solve it. It will help a lot in many situations. But I think there is the risk that if you say, “All right, we’ll get rid of this other stuff and just give you cash,” you’ve basically taken a problem that requires multiple parts to solve and just replaced one part with another. And, in some cases, maybe they keep people worse off because of that.

Targeted Interventions Beyond UBI

12:25 Emily: Can you be more specific about what is being provided to people now that’s not money?

12:29 Jim: Yeah. So, I think disability being a good one where disabilities can look very different for different sorts of people. And in some cases, the support you would need to actually be able to live with disabilities requires much more than what a basic income would provide. And so, that’s a case where, if someone were to say, “We’re going to wipe everything off the books and just give you that,” a lot of people in that situation are going to be left far worse off. I think there are specific issues around addiction, in some situations, housing assistance where there is obviously there are areas where housing is far, far more expensive. And so, to think that a national UBI would actually be enough for people in the Bay Area to be able to get by, it’s not realistic. And so, that’s a situation where a targeted intervention beyond the UBI is going to be important.

13:22 Jim: And then I think there are other ones where it may be some general challenge where someone’s falling out of the workforce or coming back from deployment abroad where, again, making sure that they have enough cash is important, but there are additional services that come beyond that that also much better set them up to succeed than the cash on its own. And so, I think that that’s a key thing here is to recognize both how transformative and valuable UBI could be, but also that it’s not a panacea. It’s not a silver bullet. It’s something that will need an ecosystem of additional supports if we actually want to have an effective safety net. And so, I don’t think the safety net that we have right now is doing that well enough, and we need to be rethinking that. But I think that there’s a danger when people say, “UBI instead of that,” that we throw the baby out with the bathwater and end up in a situation where people may be much worse off than they are today.

Regional Cost of Living Considerations

14:25 Emily: Yeah. I think because this is, I don’t necessarily want to say it’s a new idea. I mean, you said Alaska has been doing something like this for 40 years, but it’s gained maybe national attention only in recent years. So, this is still an idea that’s being worked out. And at the policy level, if viable, we don’t know exactly what the ultimate solution would look like. And presumably, it would change over decades and generations anyway. So, I’m glad you brought up the cost of living question. Because the U.S. is very diverse in terms of cost of living. Is the ultimate idea still that people would get the same amount of money no matter where they live? Maybe with some additional help, like you were just saying, for certain people in certain areas?

Psychological Implications

15:05 Jim: So yeah, a key part of it is–and I don’t think I said in my original definition, but the idea is–this would be the same amount to everyone. And there are a couple reasons for that. One is logistical that it becomes much easier to manage if it’s the same for everyone. But the other is more psychological. One of the reasons for taking a universal approach is to try to eliminate stigma associated with receiving support, which in our modern age, we all see how much stigma is associated with receiving various forms of welfare. And that, if it’s something that everyone in society is getting, you’re able to get around that. Because why is it wrong for the homeless person on the street to get the check every month if I’m also getting my check every month?

Regional Supplements

15:52 Jim: And so, that’s another reason to have the equal, universal amount. But as you say, what that means is that in particularly different regions across the country, you’re going to see big differences as far as the implications of that. So, there certainly are parts of the country where if you were giving everyone a thousand dollars a month, you can survive without too much difficulty. If you’re in the Bay Area or other places, that does not get you very far. And so, that’s an area where you do need to have something beyond that. There’s been some discussion around regional supplements where you might be able to top up a equal federal amount with something that goes up more for more expensive areas. But I think beyond that, yeah, there may be other targeted interventions that are important.

UBI Increases Mobility

16:46 Jim: I think one question that comes up that we don’t really have a good answer to but people wonder about is, if you’re providing the basic income to everyone, it is going to increase people’s mobility. And so, if you currently feel tied to a certain geography for economic reasons, which may be very expensive, whether that gives you the option to relocate to somewhere that is less expensive. And then that gets very complicated because it goes into community ties and family and things like that where there may be other factors beyond just the economics of it. But it’s something that would be different if we did this and so, potentially, that at least partially would help to mitigate some of those challenges.

Commercial

17:35 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers even while social distancing. Now, back to our interview.

The Basic Income Podcast

18:34 Emily: I feel like I could continue asking you questions about this for quite a long time. It’s a good thing you have a podcast where other people can learn more about this. What is the name of your podcast?

18:45 Jim: Our name is a bit on the nose. We are The Basic Income Podcast. We’ve been introducing weekly episodes for about three years now and exploring both UBI specifically, but also, how it relates and connects to all sorts of other areas.

How to Fund UBI in the U.S.

19:00 Emily: Okay. So, I’m going to hold off on the questions that are still swirling in my head and just say, listeners, if you’re excited about this idea, or skeptical of it, or whatever, go ahead and check out the podcast and I’m sure there are other resources that you refer to from there where people can continue to learn even more. So, one more question around the vision of this, which is should we all, or enough of us in the United States, decide this is a good idea, what actually does it look like to fund this? Maybe post-transition, if there is a transition.

Enact Changes to the Tax Code

19:32 Jim: Yeah, so that’s another area where people have very different opinions around. Because, I mean, if we’re looking at it on its face saying, “All right, everyone in the country gets a thousand dollars a month,” that’s about $4 trillion, which is the size of our current governmental spending, which seems insane. But there are various caveats, I would say, that make it much more achievable than it may seem at a glance. My preferred approach to financing is first to recognize that, if you’re going to enact universal basic income, it means you need to make some significant differences in the tax code. And specifically, as a starting point, I think income tax. At its core, the goal of UBI is to provide people with financial security. And so, what that means is that, knowing you’re always going to get your check every month is important because who knows what may happen to you. And having it always there gives you that security.

20:31 Jim: But, if you’re earning a good paycheck, there’s no reason why you should be coming out net ahead, necessarily. And so, to basically update our income tax brackets such that, once people make above a certain point, their UBI is effectively being taxed away. So, maybe that’s four times the poverty level. So, if you as an individual are earning more than 50 or $60,000 a year, basically, you’d be getting your check every month and then you’d be paying a bit more in taxes to cover that expense. If you do it that way and look at what’s eventually the net cost, it drops to somewhere between 500 billion and a trillion dollars a year, which is still a lot, but a lot less than the four trillion we started with.

Shift Tax Programs and Brackets

21:18 Jim: And so, then there are different ideas as to how do you pay for that. That’s much more in line with other somewhat ambitious governmental programs. You can couple together some combination of a carbon tax, the financial transaction tax, a wealth tax. And sort of talking more about that, Elizabeth Warren wrote it up in her campaign where you’re able to raise that amount of money to cover that difference. And also, I think potentially looking at adding a few tax brackets at the top of the income level. If we were to go back to the taxation we had pre-Reagan, that would be bringing in a substantial amount there. So, with those things combined, you can relatively easily actually be able to cover the cost.

UBI and Graduate Training

22:02 Emily: Okay. Very, very interesting. So, I wanted to pivot a little bit to tie this really into more of our PhD audience because we haven’t brought that up so far really. I mean, you mentioned earlier that you know, having a basic income could afford people the flexibility to do more training. Of course, PhDs have a lot of that. Have you given any thought, or has there been any discussion around this, how basic income–I’m sure it’s been discussed at the undergraduate level, how that would affect people pursuing college degrees? You can speak about that a little bit if you like, but I am curious about what you think about how it might affect PhD training in the United States. And specifically, you know, you brought up earlier the scarcity mindset and how that prevented people from thinking longterm and it caused an effective IQ drop.

22:45 Emily: And in season four of this podcast, I published a two-part interview with Dr. Lucie Bland and she talked about her scarcity mindset that she developed during her PhD because she was living in poverty during her PhD. She was funded at a very low level. She lives in a very expensive city, and it’s something that a lot of people can relate to during their graduate training. Although you wouldn’t necessarily think about graduate students, a relatively privileged bunch, I would expect, necessarily being beneficiaries of basic income. But maybe during that training period, they are. So, can you just speak a little bit about that?

UBI and Financial Security

23:18 Jim: Well, I would actually just add on to that. What we’re seeing in the Bay Area right now is not only at the graduate student level, but actually the assistant professor level, in some places, that people are homeless. They can’t afford to live here. So, they’re living out of their cars. Yeah, I mean I think that it’s giving you that layer of financial security, which should help with that. I think, not just because it’s some extra money, but because it would be extra money not tied your employment education situation. And obviously this is not everyone, hopefully a small minority, but if you’re having some bad power dynamics with your professor and feeling like you don’t want to be working with him or her but are not able to step away because of finances you’re receiving from there, it gives you kind of that out knowing that, regardless of what you decide there, you have that income coming in otherwise.

Parallel: UBI and Fellowship Income

24:15 Emily: So, there’s actually a slight parallel there, actually with fellowship income, right? And you did your PhD outside of the state, so, maybe it’s a little bit different there. But here with fellowship income, you know, it’s an award that you receive as an individual. It’s based on your own merits. And so, it’s not necessarily tied to you staying in one person’s lab. And so, I again, I publish an interview in season four where someone was able to switch labs, did not have a good relationship with their first advisor, was able to switch labs partially because she received an NSF graduate research fellowship. And so, similar situation, right? If, you know you can go a few months and transition without a paycheck coming from your advisor, it gives you more freedom there to really seek out the situation that is going to support you best as a developing researcher. So, yeah. Excellent point there. Please continue.

24:59 Jim: Yeah. Well, I was going to say, I think you just nailed it. You could basically think of this as universal basic fellowships for PhD students because I think that, yeah, I think the dynamics that come with it very, very closely with match what it would be if you were getting a fellowship of the same size. I mean obviously with the added flexibility that you could leave a PhD program and still have it. But as far as the context within graduate school, I think that that’s basically what it would be.

25:27 Emily: Just to explore that a little bit further. Because I do think it’s a good analogy. So, one of the great things about fellowship income is that it gives you more freedom in your research, right? So, if you’re not beholden to working on a specific grant for your advisor, like you often are in STEM fields if you have a research assistantship. The fellowship allows you more intellectual flexibility and pursuing projects that are more in line with your own goals. It allows you to pursue collaborations. It’s just a greater degree of freedom. Now, some advisors exact more or less control when they do have people on a grant for research assistantships. That’s sort of up to their discretion. But yeah, the flexibility there in terms of your intellectual pursuits would then translate in terms of UBI into your general career pursuits, life pursuits. It would just be a much broader funding of that.

26:14 Jim: Yeah, I think that’s right. I think I could imagine there would also be kind of a trade-off on that versus greater financial security. Because one of the questions would be, if everyone were getting a basic income, would you still have PhD student stipends and outside fellowships at a similar level? If you would, okay, everyone’s going to be much more economically stable.

Final Thoughts on UBI and Academia

26:40 Emily: You said earlier as like a touch point that, in your vision of this, around 50 or $60,000 of income, that’s when the UBI would kind of phase out. And for the graduate student level, graduate students don’t reach that point. A lot of postdocs don’t reach that point. So, in some sense, if nothing changed on the grant side of things, then it would boost your income. But yes, the question is whether people would still be funded to the same degree given that they have that baseline. So, if the idea right now in academia is we give people just enough money to live on so they don’t have to have other jobs that distract from their PhD research, well then maybe they would just decrease that funding. So, yeah. Any other thoughts around that? I’m sure this has not been very fully explored because it’s a very niche interest.

27:24 Jim: Well, no, I think that this is a specific example of something that is much broader, which is basically, if we were to have UBI, what does that do to wages? And the theory is that it depends a lot on what type of work you’re talking about and how much there is the internal versus external motivation around doing that work. Because if someone’s only doing the work because they’re getting paid to do it, UBI actually has the potential to then increase wages because it basically gives them more leverage to say, “Oh, well I don’t actually like this work. I’m going to go pursue other options.” And a company might then have to say, “Oh, well instead of $8 an hour, we’re going to pay you $15 an hour.” On the flip side, if it’s something that people just want to be doing for other reasons, like perhaps going to graduate school since not too many people go to graduate school to get rich, then there’s the opposite potential where, if someone is basically willing to do it, assuming that they won’t be starving, then universities may say, “Okay, well you’re UBI now instead of giving you $18,000 a year, we’re going to give you six.

28:43 Jim: So, I mean, it’s a whole other topic, but I would say that that’s where unions might come in handy. But yeah, I think it’s one of those areas that it’s very, very difficult to answer and know exactly what will happen until we actually do it. So, we can hypothesize around it. But yeah, that’s an open question.

Value of Teaching and Shifting Landscape in Education

29:07 Emily: Yeah, I guess I’m also thinking about sort of we’re having larger debates and angst in academia around the value of teaching, right? Because there’s this huge adjunct workforce that is, you know, severely underpaid. They don’t have job security and yet such a huge percentage of the classes that undergraduates and graduate students take are being taught by people who are not full-time employees of the institution that they work for or institutions. And it’s just such a difficult area right now. I can definitely see how UBI would help people in that situation, right? Because they are also experiencing poverty or near poverty-like situations, many of them. But, yeah. I mean, we’re in a transition point for education broadly. Like, if we’re moving to massive online courses and so forth, maybe if your teachers are needed. I don’t know. There are just a lot of transition here. I guess when we’re talking about maybe some kinds of jobs disappearing or transitioning, teaching at the higher education level, is one of those jobs that is sort of in transition in the workforces. And so, yeah. UBI is just kind of another element to kind of throw into the mix here that we don’t really know how it’s going to play out entirely.

30:13 Jim: Yeah, I think that’s right. And this applies less, I would say. I would expect it to still apply to some degree, but on the flip side, as far as what is the responsibility of the teacher versus the student? I think, certainly at the elementary and high school level, there’s ample evidence that financial stability of the family that the students are coming from makes a big difference as far as how well they’re able to learn. And so, that’s, I would say, another wrinkle that gets thrown in here as well, where if you are ensuring that everyone who is in the class is in more of an abundance mindset, what implications does that have to what is the most effective way of educating?

Tell Us More About Your Podcast

30:55 Emily: Such an interesting topic, Jim. I think that people will definitely want to follow up with you and learn more about this. Maybe have more discussions with you around what does the potential of UBI look like in affecting higher education and graduate students and postdocs and trainees. Again, tell us a little bit more about what you do. We have the name of it, but what do you do on your podcast?

31:14 Jim: Yeah, so we cover a lot of different areas. Most of the episodes, I think like yours, feature or are centered around a guest interview on some topic. And so, we’ve covered everything from, yeah what does UBI do with the disability community, to what’s happening in Canada with UBI to digging in on some of the modern control pilots that are being done in the U.S. and abroad to what is the connection between UBI and housing? And so, it really covers a lot of different areas, but generally we bring on an expert, we chat with them, and then we talk through what are the ramifications of what they said. And so, really try to dig in a little bit on many different areas.

UBI and Healthcare, Education

32:03 Emily: So, actually one follow-up question that goes maybe more back to our earlier conversation with what does this vision look like? Does the implementation of UBI come with it or depend on a revolution within healthcare and also in higher education? You know, paying for higher education.

32:21 Jim: Yeah. So, I would say healthcare comes up a lot. And in my view, UBI can only truly be successful if we actually have truly universal healthcare because it basically counts on the assumption that you can somewhat reasonably project what is the cost of living for people across the country. In our current system. If you don’t actually have universal coverage, that is impossible. I mean we see all the time, all these cases of people having insane bills for services. And as long as that continues to happen, there’s no way to actually guarantee universal financial security. And so, I see those two things as very, very complementary and part of a whole package that we should be fighting for. And education, perhaps not quite as closely coupled, but I think if we’re talking about what is beyond just financial security, what is really setting people up for longterm success, it seems obvious that we want to make that as accessible as possible. And so, a model where everyone in society has access to higher education is certainly the way to go.

Best Financial Advice for Another PhD

33:29 Emily: Gotcha. Okay. Standard question as we wrap up here that I ask all of my guests which is what is your best financial advice for another PhD? And that could be related to something that we’ve talked about in these two episodes, or it could be something entirely new.

33:44 Jim: I mean, I think it’s just like figuring out your sustainability. So, I mean, thinking about where you’ll be going with your PhD and what is your cost of living then, but just trying to set yourself up so that you’re not heading towards a cliff somewhere, which yeah, I feel like it would look very, very different depending on your specifics.

34:06 Emily: Yeah, definitely. It’s something I talk about a lot for people who are sort of in transition, right, out of graduate school, out of the postdoc into other positions, especially when they’re moving. Make sure you understand the cost of living. As you brought up earlier, you know, in San Francisco, make sure you understand the cost of living that you’re getting into and that the salary that you’ve been offered is is appropriate for that area and negotiate if that is not your initial offer. So, thank you so much for that advice. Jim, this has been a fascinating conversation, really just the tip of the iceberg on this topic, and so thank you so much for joining me.

34:38 Jim: Yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation as well.

Outtro

34:40 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Soon-to-Be PhD Is Facing Debt and Underemployment as He Goes on the Academic Job Market

December 2, 2019 by Meryem Ok Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Chad Frazier, a graduate student in history at Georgetown University who is about to complete his PhD and go on the academic job market. Chad’s career plans and personal finances have changed a lot during his PhD (and a master’s before that). When he received his stipend offer from Georgetown, he thought he had made it. But seven years later, the pay increases haven’t kept pace with housing prices in DC, and Chad has accumulated credit card debt. As he applies for faculty positions, Chad faces underemployment, and the grace period on his student loans from his undergrad and master’s degrees is quite limited. Chad argues that universities have a moral obligation to pay their grad students a living wage so that they can thrive academically. (Update: Chad successfully defended his PhD just prior to the publication of this episode!)

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Chad: I just spent the last 10 years at an institution, and I’m now actually financially worse off than I was when I started. At times that makes me really scared and angry. And that wasn’t something that I imagined it would be like when I would get to this point.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode 16, and today my guest is Chad Frazier, a rising eighth year PhD student in history at Georgetown. Chad and I discuss some really tough and even emotional issues in this interview including large student loan balances, credit card debt, underemployment, the difficult academic job market, and the feeling of being let down by your university. Chad shares quite openly the current state of his finances and career aspirations. We discuss what universities can do to alleviate financial stress among their grad students as well as what prospective grad students should think about when they look at a stipend offer letter. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Chad Frazier. You don’t want to miss this one.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:15 Emily: I am joined today on the podcast by Chad Frazier, who is currently a PhD student at Georgetown. And we’re going to be talking about the financial issues that arise, particularly as you’re getting close to the completion of a PhD. Right? You’re getting to to the end of graduate school, and what happens next and how do you handle that with your finances? It’s a really challenging situation for many, many, many PhDs. So Chad, I’m really delighted that you joined me today. And will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

01:46 Chad: Yeah, sure. First off, happy to be on the podcast, Emily. So just kind of a little background. I’m, like you said, just in the process of finishing up my PhD. I’m kind of planning to defend middle to late part of September. I focus on US history. Before that, I got my MA at Georgetown, which is the institution I’m currently at, BA at Dickinson. I guess those are kind of the broad highlights. I’ve been in the last couple of years, very active with the graduate union here at Georgetown. I’m part of the organizing committee and started getting more and more interested as part of that work in the last couple of years.

Evolution of Career Plans in Grad School

02:32 Emily: Yeah. Super interested here. Maybe not specifically about the unionization issues or your role in that, but just about your thinking around those issues as it relates to what we’re going to be talking about today. So, you’re almost done with your PhD. What are your current career plans, what you think you’ll be doing next, and also maybe how has that changed over the course of your degree?

02:54 Chad: Okay. Yeah. So when I started out the PhD, which would have been fall of 2012, the plan was generally that I was going to just tenure track, ideally at a liberal arts college. I was a peer writing tutor in undergrad and I really liked the experience of teaching. That said, I was kind of amenable to the idea of like maybe doing alternate career paths, kind of sidetracks, that led eventually to this final goal. But I can’t say that I really thought about them in any sort of depth. I think I figured, “Oh, I’ll just figure it out as I go.” So, like last year, I tried the academic job market for the first time, kind of a soft search. I didn’t get anything, which was not unexpected where I was with my dissertation. And then I’m going to try it again this year–be better, generally more competitive I think–and we’ll see what happens there. But over the course of the sort of last several years, I have just gotten more interested in other possible career paths. Because there are maybe some things about academia that I’m not always a fan of. And I think in particular, one would flag, like I mentioned, the unionization, maybe involvement with something to do with the labor movement, either as an organizer or researcher for a union. I’m also working with a professor here on building an online archive. So it looks at teachers in the labor movement. So it’s kind of up in the air.

When Does Your Graduate Student Position End?

04:18 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like you’re getting other kinds of work experience. Right? Other kinds of, or not necessarily work, maybe it’s volunteer as well, but other kinds of experiences that’ll help you figure out what you want to do with your career and maybe you know, land, whatever that next job is. So you said you’re planning on going back on the job market again this fall. When does your position as a graduate student actually end or do you have an end date for that?

04:41 Chad: So I actually just put in paperwork with the graduate school. So the way this basically works is, I will defend, ideally late September. Once I do that, and generally, I am sure this is true for a lot of people, the assumption is that when you get in the room, you’re ready. Then there are revisions, which part of that is what your committee says, part of it is shaping it to the graduate school. And, as far as the university is concerned, when I’m in that mode, I’m still a student. And it’s just then once those are done, you file it with the graduate school, and then you apply to graduate, which for me the plan is to do that in December.

Plan for Income Until Graduation

05:24 Emily: And so as far as your income goes, in the meantime, do you have an assistantship that’ll still be ongoing, or what’s the plan for the income?

05:32 Chad: So the plan for the income by sort of Georgetown rules is basically after seventh year, which my seventh year technically concluded in May, I’m not eligible for any kind of assistantship, whether as a TA or an RA. So, the work I’ve been doing with the online archive is paid out of an Institute here at Georgetown called the Kalmanovitz Initiative. And I’m figuring out how many hours they will be able to pay me for that. But I’m also looking for sort of part time jobs. One of the advantages of being in DC is there’s a fair amount of work for research with journalists or stuff like that to kind of make enough money that I can make ends meet until I can have something more definite.

Are You Considered an Employee at Georgetown?

06:20 Emily: So, the position that you’ve had at Georgetown, not your assistantship, are you an employee technically or is that like an independent contractor position?

06:32 Chad: So, I’m an employee. It’s routed through sort of the student payroll office. It’s a little complicated just because the way the rules are here with PhD students, we have to estimate how many hours a week I plan to work and how many weeks. And then they are like, “Oh, this is his stipend.” And then that gets dispersed out in biweekly installments. They changed that recently. It used to be able to have been, oh, just hourly, as long as I didn’t exceed like some certain restraints, that would have been fine. Bureaucracy.

What is the State of Your Finances at this Point?

07:05 Emily: Yeah. So, it sounds like you have a part-time position that’ll be ongoing through Georgetown. And then on top of that you do need to work a bit more as well as actually finishing up your dissertation and doing the defense and all of that. So, it’s a lot going on at this juncture. It’s a time of transition and a challenging time. So, can you tell me a little bit more about the state of your finances at this point? It sounds like, well first of all, is that income that you anticipate making going to be enough to sort of keep your head above water or is that still a question mark?

07:43 Chad: So, the way it’s kind of shaping up is that income that I’m going to get from the job with KI, with Kalmanovitz Initiative, probably I’m hoping that’s enough to cover rent. And then the additional work–the idea is basically enough that I can feed myself and pay for Metro and sort of living expenses and hopefully get enough too that I can start paying down credit cards a bit more. Because I’m very cognizant of the fact that, six months after I graduate, the student loans are going to start coming due. And that’s going to drop like anvil from heaven, it feels like. So, I want to have hopefully something ready for that where I’m not getting hit from two sides.

History of Chad’s Student Loans

08:37 Emily: Yeah, totally. So, you’ve mentioned you have student loans. Do you want to share like the amount of that, or like which degree you accumulated them from?

08:47 Chad: Yeah, sure. So, I went to a private liberal arts school, Dickinson College, for my undergrad. And I got lucky. I got a pretty good financial aid package there that most of it consisted of scholarships and grants. And I only had to take out, I think, anywhere from 10 to 20,000 [dollars]. Most of the student debt I’ve accumulated was because of my master’s degree that I took before I started my PhD. And for that, I basically have to look through the records and that’s about 80 to 81,000 dollars. So that’s, yeah.

09:20 Emily: Yeah, that’s going to be a large minimum payment. Even if you go one of these income-driven routes, depending on what you’re doing the rest of the year, assuming you haven’t gotten like a full-time faculty position yet. Anyway, it’ll be a large payment, presumably. So, that sounds really, really tough, but it’s also pretty common as you might imagine. Okay, so you have the student loan debt from your earlier degrees, not from the PhD itself. And then you mentioned credit card debt. Do you want to share the amount of that, and how it was that you accumulated it?

Accumulation of Credit Card Debt

09:54 Chad: Yeah, because I’m not sure. I don’t think I can pull the dollar amount right off the top of my head. But it’s basically–so, a little background about how a PhD sort of works at Georgetown. I was admitted with a five-year package, which meant that for three years there was a service obligation, which I TA’d. Two years was non-service. And then basically, for year six through seven, the department was able to fund me kind of on a discretionary basis. I got a fellowship my sixth year where I got to teach my own class, and then I got a semester of non-service. And then this last year I was on service. And I got a decent enough job working kind of as an administrative assistant to a professor. But the big issue was, that fellowship when I was getting paid was only nine months out of the year, which is pretty common for humanities and social science students here at Georgetown.

10:55 Chad: And so that meant that like, I tried to set aside money so I could cover rent. I would basically always try to find an extra, some sort of job either during the semester where I could save up money or a job during the summer where I could kind of live off of that. Invariably, credit cards became the sort of go-to during the summer. And the usual MO is, in the summer months, pay them down during the year, and then in the summer months make minimum payments until–maybe a little extra if you can–you get back into the fall, and then start paying them down again. And that worked actually pretty well the first couple of years. It’s just in the last two, three years, cost of living has been going up in DC with rent. And also with like, you know, last summer I had three really close friends who got married, and I wanted to go to their weddings and I had to pay for that. And I went to a conference in November that I didn’t get reimbursed for that was on the West coast, which was expensive. And it’s been hard to sort of do that, pay it down this last year where, come June, they were all maxed out, and I just was boxed in.

12:15 Emily: Yeah. I think what you’re describing is super common for PhD students, for people in their twenties and thirties, generally. I mean the nine-month pay, of course, is fairly unique to our mode of work, depending on what kind of field you’re in. But yeah, I mean it sounds like you had the right idea, right? Save up during the year, so you’re cognizant of that in advance. You’re trying to plan for it in advance, save up during the year, live on that over the summer, plus you work a little bit. But it’s really hard to do that planning. It’s just a really, really challenging situation to be in. So yeah, it sounds like credit cards came into that for you as well as the whole irregular expenses thing, you know, going to people’s weddings. I also really value attending weddings.

13:00 Emily: I love being able to go, I always had to travel. It was a challenge, financially. And what you mentioned, of course, the conference thing. We all know inside academia that conferences either are not paid for at all for students, or the student has to pay upfront and then the reimbursements, and it’s months later. That can definitely get people into cycles of credit card debt as well. It’s a huge, widespread problem, I would say. So, I’m sure all of this sounds very relatable to the audience, and I’m really thankful to you for sort of bearing yourself this way and sharing this because it is a really difficult thing to talk about publicly. So, thank you so much for doing that. Is there any other debt that you’re dealing with at this point aside from the credit cards and student loans?

Any Other Debt Besides Credit Cards and Student Loans?

13:41 Chad: I think those are the two biggest sort of issues. Like, yeah, there’s nothing else really out there. I rent so I don’t have to worry about like a mortgage. I don’t like to drive. I don’t own a car. So, it’s public transit. So yeah, it’s pretty much just credit cards and student debt.

14:01 Emily: Yeah. And it sounds like, given that you don’t own a car–which is one of my very go-to suggestions for people trying to reduce their expenses–you live in an expensive city. That’s how it is. You pay a lot in rent. You don’t own a car. Rent’s been going up, presumably, as is almost always the case. Stipends do not keep up with rising rent costs and yeah, it’s just a really, really tough spot to be in. I’m curious actually what your thought process was about choosing–and maybe it’s not really like a conscious choice, but like you have been accumulating credit card debt over the past couple of years. You know, at first, you said you were in a cycle of, “Okay, I build it up and then I pay it down.” But as you said, the last couple years, it’s been more building up than paying down.

14:43 Chad: Yeah.

14:44 Emily: Why did you go that route instead of taking out additional student loan debt?

Why Credit Cards Over Additional Student Loans?

14:50 Chad: I think part of that was I was just being cognizant of the fact that I had a fair amount coming in from my master’s program in particular. I actually had this conversation with my mom a couple of times. Where she’s like, “Well you should just put in for FAFSA and try to get more. You should try to get another student loan or something.” And I was like, “But I’ve already got at least 80,000 perhaps up to a hundred thousand, and it sort of seemed like I would be mortgaging my future even more so than I did. In the early years of the program, kind of you brought up the whole idea of stipends not keeping up–throughout sort of my time here at Georgetown, usually the stipend has gone up in each year by about a thousand dollars, which in year one that meant I went from 22 to 23 thousand. That was like a 5% increase. And that I think helped keep ahead of a lot of stuff.

15:50 Chad: And then, more recently it’s like now that last year–the university introduced a wage freeze this year, but the year before it was like–that amounted about 3.5%. I don’t have terribly many expenses. I used to joke that I only allowed myself sort of three very basic luxuries, which was food, like going out to eat. Not that I go out anywhere very expensive. Booze. I like beer, but I like cheap beer. Weirdly enough. And then books. And those, even there, I’m like, “Oh, I won’t spend more than like 25 bucks.” So, it was like, “Oh, these are really small things.” And it’s not like I was going on trips to Europe or anything that expensive. So it was like, “Okay, the credit cards just seemed more manageable.”

16:48 Emily: It really seems like just mentioning those little luxuries that you allowed yourself–which again, like you just said, did not amount to a lot of money–it really illustrates for me how large a chunk of your income must be taken up by your necessary expenses. Because what you mentioned as discretionary expenses have not been outrageous by any means of course. So, it just for me really illustrates this like probably 60, 70, 80% of your income has probably been taken up by like your rent and your basic food and you know, basic transportation and all that kind of stuff, which is a really, really, really tough spot to be in. There’s a benchmark that I like to reference which is called the balanced money formula, which I don’t know if it was created, but it was definitely popularized by Elizabeth Warren and her daughter in their book from, it must be 10 plus years ago now, All Your Worth*.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

The Balanced Money Formula

17:43 Emily: And they introduce this concept of the balanced money formula. And in that, a person’s necessary expenses–so you know, stuff to keep you alive, housing, food, et cetera. Also, all the contracts that you are in, your insurance, that kind of stuff–that should amount to no more than 50% of your net income after-tax income. And that’s to live like a balanced life. On a sustainable basis, it shouldn’t be more than 50%. If you go above that, it’s like warning, warning, warning. This is not going to feel sustainable for you. It sounds like you’ve probably been in that warning zone your entire time you’ve been in graduate school most likely. And again, really, really common for graduate students, especially those who live in higher cost of living areas. So, that benchmark can feel really discouraging to people who have lower incomes. And it’s just kind of something that like, I don’t know, just you need to acknowledge. It’s going to feel really difficult to live on your stipend if you can’t fit your rent and your transportation and your food under that 50% figure. And is that something that’s worthwhile to attend the institution you want to attend and do the research and pursue our passions in our careers. It’s a tough spot to be in.

Commercial

18:59 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series as you make changes over the longterm. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part-coaching, part-course, and part-community. You can find out more and join the waitlist for the next time I open the program at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Anything Else You Would Like to Share?

20:14 Emily: I wondered if you had any additional thoughts, feelings that you wanted to share regarding what we’ve been talking about. Your career transition upcoming, about the state of your finances right now. Anything you haven’t said so far?

20:28 Chad: I think in terms of sort of the way this has all been. Because again, I don’t come from money. My dad works as a supply manager at a college bookstore. My mom recently started working for Chick-fil-A. Like, working-class family. And there was even this weird stretch when I started the PhD in 2012, my dad who had gotten fired from his job like just after the financial crisis and just took the opportunity to go back to school himself, to finish first his undergrad degree. He could only find a job working part-time for a big-box retailer. And you know, there were moments where mom was calling me up and having to borrow little bits of money from me and then she’d pay them back to make their ends meet. And there was just this sort of sense of like, “Oh, I made it. I’m okay. Like this is not a lot, but it’s going to be kind of uphill, you know, all going up from here.”

21:35 Chad: And then now to be in this position where I kind of feel like at times I just spent the last 10 years at an institution, counting the same institution for both my MA and my PhD, and I’m now actually financially worse off than I was when I started. And I think at times that makes me really scared, and at times it really also bothers me–like now, my mom has to front me money for stuff like getting a new cell phone. Because my old one was four years old and couldn’t hold a charge for like a few hours–and angry. And that wasn’t something that I imagined it would be like when I would get to this point. I felt like it would be tough. There’d be an adjustment, but I didn’t think there would be quite this type of problem.

Supporting Family Members During Graduate School

22:27 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah, just thank you for sharing the point that you’ve gotten to here. I think that graduate students supporting their family members to a degree–and it could be their parents, it could be a sibling, it could be a dependent child–is something that is, in my opinion, not really talked about that much openly. But it happens a lot. And your degree of like, you know, maybe short term loans to your family that happened over what seems like a relatively short period of time is a more brief, just smaller kind of support that you were able to provide at that time, which is awesome. And other graduate students support their family members for a significant fraction of their stipend for years.

23:19 Emily: And maybe it’s remittances they’re sending to another country. It could be within the US. That situation happens all the time, too. And so, I’m glad to share your perspective on the podcast of thinking, “Okay, I made it into my PhD program. I’m no longer taking out student debt. I have an income. I’m making it. I’m living in DC. The future ahead of me is bright. I’m going to be a professor.” And then, you know, seven years later coming to this point, like, “I’m not so sure what my career is going to be. I have a lot of student loan debt. I have consumer debt. I don’t quite know how I’m going to be making it from month to month starting in just a few months.” So, really, really tough spot to be in. But again, I don’t think it’s that uncommon for PhD students. What has been your observation about how your situation maybe compares to some of your other peers?

How Does Your Situation Compare to That of Your Peers?

24:11 Chad: Actually, I think you’re right. In talking with my peers, there are a lot of similarities. Like you were talking about grads supporting other grads. I’ve got friends in my program, other departments that I’ve gotten familiar with thanks to my involvement with the union, where they’ve got families–or like one of my really best friends in my cohort was from the Philippines and throughout the program he was sending money home to Manila to help his family out. And yeah, it is very common. It’s just, the more jarring thing about it is that for me, on one hand with history, more and more of an awareness of like, “Okay, the job market has sort of changed. Higher ed: We’ve seen this sort of adjunctification of labor. Okay, we need to start thinking about alternative pathways or career diversity.” Different labels get used for different fields. But there really has never been this sort of awareness about the financial dimension. I think the only time it’s ever come up in conversations with faculty are like, “Oh, the stipend’s enough, right? You’re doing okay.” Or, “You’re not having to take out loans for this, are you?” And I’m like, “No, I’m living within my means. I’m fine.” And part of it is, this stuff is kind of new-ish. It’s not necessarily out of the blue, but it is new-ish. And for a lot of faculty, this is wasn’t their experience and isn’t their experience now. So yeah, those are kind of two broad impressions.

Universities Do Not See All of Our Financial Struggles

25:45 Emily: Yeah. I think what I’ve observed from maybe more of the university perspective is they track things like amount of student loan debt taken out. And so, if they don’t see a lot of, let’s say, PhD students taking out student loans–like you have consciously avoided student loans because of your existing level of debt–then they may not be aware of the hardships that people are undertaking outside of the university system, like racking up credit card debt or like borrowing money from other sorts of lenders or from family members or whatever it might be to again sort of keep their head above water. And also, the whole side hustling thing, which is super, super common. And I’m generally a fan of side hustling, especially when it advances your own career, like what you’ve been doing with your other position. Like that’s exposed you to a new area of work and maybe you’ll keep going in that area.

26:40 Emily: So, what can be really beneficial in a lot of ways, but it’s something that can be distracting from the degree, especially if a student has a lot of other responsibilities going on too, like they have a family or whatever. So, it’s not great if a student has to side hustle. It’s okay if they want to and they can balance it or whatever. But it’s not a good situation when they have to do it to just keep their heads above water. So, all of that can be very stressful. Of course, of course it’s stressful and can affect career decisions. And I think what you’ve been talking about–that we’re specifically talking about transitioning out of graduate school–the idea that your stipend is enough to make it on like a month to month basis is kind of one thing. But is it enough to actually bridge you until you get to the kind of job that you’re supposed to have as a PhD?

27:27 Emily: And we know as you were just mentioning from the academic job market that it can take multiple cycles of going through this before maybe you get a possession or maybe you don’t. And what are you doing in the meantime? Are you adjuncting? Like that’s not a really solid situation either. So, it’s not only a stipend needs to serve you in getting, you know, from month to month, but it also should be enough that you can actually transition into the next position, you know, and not have to take on let’s say a bunch of credit card debt or whatever it is in the transition. Like to have to move and to have to have a lapse in employment and all the expenses as you enter the job market. Anyway, that’s me going on for a while about that. So, these challenges are definitely common. What do you think are some solutions or better practices that either the universities could be doing or individuals could be doing or anybody else could be doing to kind of alleviate this situation?

Solutions for Universities and Individuals

28:21 Chad: Yeah. Well, I think universities kind of start from the top and work down. Because I very much do believe in sort of this idea of agency and personal responsibility. But you have an obligation to make the best of the cards that you’re dealt. But you’re also not the one dealing the cards. And I think universities really do have an obligation–for PhDs or master’s students who are working– to pay them sort of a living wage. And there are definitely forces that are nudging them in that direction. Whether it’s like Washington DC, which has passed a referendum that I think will eventually set the minimum wage to $15 an hour which has started leading new improvements for friends that I know or master’s students who work hourly. Graduate unionization, kind of nudging for upped stipends. Also just, there’s the competitive angle of this, you know, trying to get the best recruits. I know with Georgetown we want to get the best people and we’re competing against universities like, for example, Emory or Vanderbilt that actually pay better and are also in cheaper cities compared to Washington DC. So I think universities have an obligation there.

29:40 Chad: I also think sometimes with just like master’s students, it’s a thing that is kind of maybe a joke or a truism, at least with the people I’ve talked to here, that, “Oh, master’s students, your job is basically subsidizing the PhDs or you’re subsidizing the department,” so you have an incentive to bring in more people. And it’s not necessarily going to be a funded program. And you know, okay, I paid in my $80,000. So as a PhD, I don’t always feel bad when I go into the department supply closet and be like, “I need a notepad.” But part of the function of some master’s programs is to recruit people, like identify people that would be good in PhDs. And I don’t know, the sort of like treating folks as a revenue source in that way. It’s just deeply unsettling. And not that I necessarily have an answer to that, but I think universities thinking of alternative ways to handle that or to control sort of tuition is important.

Are Students Primarily Producers or Consumers?

30:38 Emily: What I’m thinking about when you’re saying this is whether the student is primarily a consumer of what the university produces or a producer of that work. And scholarship is part of what a university produces, right? As well as the teaching and everything. So, for undergraduates I guess we kind of accept that they are consumers of the university, and they or the government or whoever should be paying for them to get this lovely education. PhD students we generally see as producers. They’re either teaching and spreading their knowledge and mentoring people, or they’re producing scholarship that is worthwhile. Master’s students I feel like could fall in either category and maybe are viewed mostly as consumers, yet as you were just saying, especially if they’re going onto the PhD level and producing scholarship of their own, even at the master’s level, maybe they should be viewed more as like producers.

31:40 Emily: But anyway, all of this is so, so complicated. And I’m really glad that you brought up like the unionization movement and how that’s affecting this conversation, as well as the competition thing. Of course. I was just thinking that, if we are going to view PhD students as producers of work, it makes a lot of sense to pay people enough that they don’t have to feel stress. Because if what the university wants is a product out of a graduate student, whether it’s a class or whether it’s a paper or whatever, it makes sense to give them an environment where they can produce a good product. And paying them enough that they don’t have to side hustle and they don’t have to take out debt and they don’t have to feel stressed, and it’s not a cloud looming over them all the time. It makes sense to me in terms of producing the best product out of those people as possible. I don’t know what your thoughts are on that.

Quality Work Requires Quality Pay

32:30 Chad: No, I absolutely agree with it. And I think it’s interesting because for me when I first got involved with the unionization effort here at Georgetown–it’s really funny if like, someone had tried to talk to me and get me involved by talking about how low my pay was, that wouldn’t have worked. It would have just been like, “Well no I make enough. It’s not a lot, but I make enough to just get by, and I have a little extra if I want to go out to eat with friends, I can do it.” For me the issue was sort of more transparency about things like job listings and responsibilities. But kind of over the last two to three years, as I have gotten closer and closer to the sort of end, it’s now much more about sort of money and like the awareness that, like what you were talking about earlier, a stipend that just allows earning a living in a livable wage that kind of also gives people a cushion. I’ve been lucky. I haven’t had any sort of serious medical problems or family issues that would’ve required like a massive outlay at one time. But there are a lot of people that don’t have that privilege. So, that’s for me like the big part of the unionization effort. Now it’s just like, we want people to do good, so we should create conditions where they can do good. Like, can do the thing that they signed up to do, whether that’s research, whether that’s teaching.

34:04 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for that part of the discussion. I think we’ll just conclude the interview here by asking you what is your best financial advice for one of your peers? Maybe someone who’s anticipating the end of the PhD coming up fast.

Best Financial Advice for Your Peers

34:21 Chad: I think probably my best advice would maybe be more geared towards people earlier on, which is recognize that you’re going to change. When I started, I was 25 years old. $22,000 sounded like a lot of money. And like I said earlier, I felt like I kind of had made it. Recognizing that by about now I’m 31. I’ve had friends getting married and needs change. And seven years is a long time to be in one place. So, be aware of that, and when you’re starting out, make a plan kind of on that basis. You’ll hear some of the faculty here talk about, “You need to have like a 10-year plan for academic stuff.” Like when you’re going to publish and do all this sort of stuff. But I think also just the idea of having some sort of longterm financial plan, especially when you’re a graduate student and you’re dealing with pretty thin margins already.

Consider Long-Term Financial Goals and Changing Needs

35:17 Emily: Yeah. I totally agree and want to just underline what you said. To someone who’s in their early twenties or mid-twenties or something, that first stipend offer can seem great. Totally adequate. Fine. You’re looking at your rent, whatever it’s going to be fine. And then you get a few years down the line and your life changes and your career goals change and your responsibilities increase, often. I had another interview in season three with Scott Kennedy and he talked about getting married and having children during graduate school, which is not something that he had in his plan when he accepted that first offer letter. But it was, you know, over the years that he spent in graduate schools, something that came into his life. And so an amount of money that can seem workable at a younger age doesn’t necessarily seem so workable later. Not just because of the individual and your own life changes that you incur, but also as we were just talking about, because stipends don’t keep up generally with the cost of living and inflation, especially in these higher cost of living cities.

36:12 Emily: So, it could be that you’re actually falling behind in terms of an indexed amount of money as well as you yourself are getting older and having all these changes occur in your own life. So, it’s just an argument for prospective graduate students to be not accepting of something that seems “okay,” but really looking, as we were just saying, for competitive offers that will offer you well above the living wage for whatever area you’re moving to. Another thing which we didn’t discuss in detail, but tuition and fees–the responsibility that falls upon the graduate student for paying those–that can sometimes change. And universities who are facing funding shortfalls can change the package that you receive. So, hey, maybe your stipend doesn’t decrease or maybe your stipend goes up, as you were saying. Maybe it’s $1,000 a year, but maybe your fees are also going up by hundreds of dollars per year. That could easily be the case too.

37:04 Emily: And once you start in a program, you start feeling stuck and you’re invested, and there are sunk costs and so forth. And so, it’s just something to think about at the beginning to have more margin than you anticipate that you’re actually going to need because over five years, over seven years, whatever it is, a lot can change. So, Chad, thank you so much for this interview. It was really a pleasure to have you. Thank you for sharing so openly about your situation.

37:26 Chad: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was great talking with you.

Outtro

37:29 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the free music archive, and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This NDSEG Fellow Prioritizes Housing and Saving for Mid- and Long-Term Goals

August 5, 2019 by Jewel Lipps 3 Comments

In this episode, Emily interviews Lourdes Bobbio, a graduate student in materials science at Penn State and NDSEG fellow. Lourdes breaks down the top five expenses in her budget: housing, food, taxes, utilities, and subscription services. She explains the financials systems she has put in place to reach financial success during her PhD: targeted savings, automated transfers, quarterly estimated tax, high-yield savings accounts, and taxable retirement investments with a roboadvisor. Lourdes has decided to prioritize her housing within her budget, but still balances that expense with plenty of saving for her future wedding and retirement.

Links mentioned in episode

0:00 Introduction

1:07 Please Introduce Yourself

Lourdes Bobbio is a fourth year PhD student at Penn State University in State College, Pennsylvania. She is in the materials science and engineering department. She currently lives alone.

1:55 What is your income?

Lourdes is on the National Defense Science and Engineering Graduate fellowship. She makes $38,400 each year which is $3,200 per month. She says that this income goes pretty far in State College.

2:37 What are your five largest expenses each month?

Lourdes explains that the cost of living in State College is fairly low, especially compared to where she grew up near Washington, DC and where she went to undergraduate in Boston. She was more accustomed to high cost of living. Her top expenses are rent, taxes, food, utilities and subscription services.

3:08 #1 Expense: Rent

Lourdes lives in the downtown area of State College. She lives on her own without roommates. She determined that she values being able to walk to work every day, living close to campus, living near restaurants, and living by herself. She doesn’t have a car, so she doesn’t have car related expenses in her budget. She says she has never owned a car. She says a majority of graduate students in State College have a car. The town is small and there is a limited number of things to do. If you want to go away for the weekend, having a car is useful. She says there is an abundance of housing close to campus and a fairly good bus system.

She spends about $1500 per month for rent. She lives in a one bedroom with an office space which could be a second bedroom. She values having a space of her own. Because it is a college town, it runs on the school schedule. She says the cycle of finding apartments is over in November and December. She has lived in the same place for her whole time in graduate school. She says for her first year of graduate school, she wasn’t on the NDSEG fellowship. Her parents helped her pay rent a little bit and they stayed in the office room when they came to visit her. When she got her fellowship, she determined she could pay for the apartment on her own.

Lourdes says that her boyfriend has a car, and several of her friends own a car. When she wants to travel out of town, she goes with them.

8:46 #2 Expense: Taxes

Lourdes charges herself for taxes. Because she has fellowship income, she does not have automatic withholding for her taxes, so she needs to make quarterly estimated tax payments to the IRS. When she gets paid at the beginning of the month, she takes out the money for taxes right away and puts it into a savings account. When it’s time to make the quarterly payment, she has the money available. Emily emphasizes that the majority of fellows do not have taxes withheld and fellows need to withhold taxes themselves.

When she first got her fellowship and realized that no taxes would be withheld, she had to go through the process of filling out the 1040-ES worksheet to figure out the total amount that she would owe. She figured that out and divided it by twelve so she could save that amount each month. She has a spreadsheet to plan her budget for the entire year. She sets it aside in a high yield savings account until she has to pay it each quarter. Emily explains that 1040-ES is not submitted to the IRS and she has a workshop to help people work through the form.

Lourdes banks with Discover online bank and she also has a credit card with them. She puts her long term savings there. She has a checking account with a local credit union and a short term savings account.

13:42 #3 Expense: Food

Lourdes includes groceries and going out to eat in her food expenses. She says she spends more on dining out than she would like to, but she doesn’t feel guilty about it because she budgets for it and knows how much she can spend. Emily shares that budgeting is “freeing” and Lourdes agrees. Lourdes says that she values the social time that is associated with dining out. She spends about $200 to $300 per month on food.

15:42 #4 and #5 Expense: Utilities and Subscription Services

Lourdes says that she pays $30 to $40 on electricity. She pays about $25 per month on subscription services, Netflix and Spotify. She says that Audible is about $15 per month and she recently cut it. She reevaluates what she is subscribed to each year.

Her apartment has internet and cable included. She wouldn’t have paid for cable if it wasn’t included. She says that internet can be pricey and she’s glad it is included in her rent.

19:08 What are you currently doing to further your financial goals?

Lourdes has short term, mid term, and long term goals. She says she has two savings accounts to break down her goals. She has a savings account through her credit union that’s connected to her checking account. She puts money for her short term goals there. Her mid term and long term goals go into her high yield savings account.

Her short term goals include a general travel fund. She takes a bus to go to DC to visit her parents. She puts about $15 to $20 per month for travelling home. She has a gift fund as well, which helps her save for going to weddings. She has a “fun fund” where she saves for higher price experiences, like going to Broadway shows that have $60 tickets. She also uses her fun fund for buying items for her hobbies, like baking equipment. Emily says that she calls this a system of targeted savings account. This is a system for saving for irregular expenses.

Her mid term savings goals is for her wedding. She is saving about a couple hundred dollars per month for her wedding. She is also thinking about buying a house in the future and she is saving with that in mind. Additionally, because she is on a fellowship, she has to pay out of pocket for her health insurance. Recently when she had to be taken off of her parent’s health insurance, she used her emergency savings account to pay for health insurance. Now she has been saving for her next year’s health insurance premium.

26:28 Do you have long term goals?

Lourdes is also saving for retirement. For one year in graduate school, before she was on her fellowship, she was able to max out her Roth IRA. She learned that she is not eligible to contribute to a Roth IRA while on a fellowship. Now she invests in a general taxable brokerage account. She does not contribute as much but she tries to put $100 or $200 per month into it.

Emily explains that your eligibility for an IRA depends on you having taxable compensation or earned income. For graduate students, this means W-2 pay which is typically an assistantship. The NDSEG fellowship doesn’t count as taxable compensation or earned income. At this point, many people don’t bother saving for retirement because they don’t have an IRA. Emily encourages investing at as an early an age as possible.

Lourdes said when she learned about the tax and retirement savings of her fellowship, she realized that she would have to invest in a taxable account. She did a lot of research into what she wanted to invest in. She didn’t feel very knowledgeable. She used Vanguard for her Roth IRA but she wanted to try something else. She currently uses an online roboadvisor Wealthfront, which she likes so far. She says it is an easy way to get a broad portfolio. She thinks in the future she would move to somewhere with lower fees. She says she has no fees because her amount is below the threshold of $15,000. Wealthfront lowers the threshold with referrals. Her referral link in these shownotes.

32:30 What is your best financial advice that you’d share with your peers?

Lourdes advises not to be afraid of having a budget. She says many people are worried that budgets are restricting. She says that budgets are freeing, especially as a graduate student on a limited income. She says the budget gives her freedom that is very valuable and makes finances less scary.

33:50 Conclusion

How to Make Money without Working: Credit Card Rewards and 529s

May 13, 2019 by Jewel Lipps 3 Comments

In this episode, Emily interviews Seonwoo Lee, a PhD student in electrical engineering at Georgia Tech. Seonwoo has mastered two methods to earn extra money without “working.” Emily and Seonwoo discuss in detail their experiences with garnering credit card rewards and give both beginner and advanced tips. Seonwoo also explains a 529 hack he discovered to reduce his state tax bill that is applicable in as many as 30 states. They also briefly touch on several other methods to make money without working that are readily accessible for early-career PhDs.

Links mentioned in episode

0:00 Introduction

1:14 Please Introduce Yourself

Seonwoo Lee is a PhD student in electrical engineering at Georgia Tech. He did his undergraduate at Cornell. He pursued a number of ways to make money without actually having a second job.

1:48 Why have you tried to make money without working?

Seonwoo says that if you do it right, you can make more money per hour than working a traditional job. He says it gives you more flexibility, since you can do as much or as little as you want.

There is some effort involved in pursuing these strategies, but it’s not as much time you would put into working if you had a second job. Additionally, some people are prevented from officially working in other capacities, either by the terms of their contract or by their student visa. The strategies they’ll talk about are probably available to any PhD student or postdoc.

3:07 What are the two topics that we’ll go into detail discussing? What are some other strategies?

Seonwoo will discuss credit card rewards as well as banking sign up bonuses. Second, he’ll talk about the 529 trick to save money on your state taxes.

Emily mentions other ways to make money without working.

Emily has sold items when she’s moved as part of a downsizing process. She has sold items on craigslist.
Another option is Ebates *. Here, you make purchases through the Ebates platform and you are selling your information in exchange for money.
Emily presents short term investing in taxable accounts as an option to make money without working. She and her husband paid off student loans through mid-term investing.
Other options are receipt apps like Ibotta, where you upload your receipts and you sell your information to get cash back.
Also, there is the strategy of “car wrapping,” which is wrapping your car in an advertisement and you receive money based on how much you drive. Emily recommends listening to the How to Money podcast for more information on car wrapping.

* This is a referral link. If you sign up and spend $25 through Ebates, you’ll receive a $10 bonus to your account and I’ll receive a referral fee. Thank you for supporting Personal Finance for PhDs!

7:19 How do the credit card rewards and sign up bonuses work?

Seonwoo begins with the caveat that if you can’t manage credit cards responsibly, you should not pursue credit card rewards in any form. If you pay any interest at all when you do this, you are likely not going to reap the benefits of rewards. Emily adds that you already need a good or excellent credit score to pursue these strategies. If you carry a balance on your credit card, this strategy is not for you. Emily says make sure you are using your credit card like a debit card, and if you are you can consider this strategy.

Further reading: Perfect Use of a Credit Card

Seonwoo says that plenty of credit cards offer sign up bonuses. These require you to spend between $500 and $4,000 within the first three months of signing. The bonuses will vary from credit card points to straight cash. The offers will range from $100 to $500 in cash or 30,000 to 100,000 points. Seonwoo says there are ways to meet these minimum spending requirements without spending more than you normally would.

Emily talks about fitting these credit cards into your normal spending. She signed up for a credit card with a minimum spending requirement of $3,000 over three months. She had to put everything she was purchasing on that one card. She picked a time of year when she had to pay for car insurance and flights. She timed signing up for the credit card with when she knew she had above average expenses. Reaching the minimum spend requirements is a hurdle for people with lower income.

Seonwoo says you can see if you can pay your rent with a credit card. He says the fee may be 3%. If that is the only thing stopping you from pursuing a sign up bonus, do the math to see if the rewards are worth it. You can see if you can put tuition or fee charges on the credit card. You can see if you can pay your bills months ahead of time. He says you can buy grocery gift cards to get the charge on the credit card, but then you can spend that gift card over a longer period of time.

Emily says that someone new to this can try it with existing spending, then they can try manipulating their spending.

13:00 Is cash back or points more valuable to a graduate student?

Seonwoo says that cash back is much easier to start with and understand. There are only so many cash sign up bonuses. If you like to optimize things, credit card rewards will be more valuable if you use the rewards for travel.

Emily says that there are cards with a regular cash back rate, like 1-2% back on spending. She says that is a good way to start. Then the next level would be switching to actively pursuing credit card rewards. To make rewards lucrative, you have to be able to redeem them. She explains that in Durham, North Carolina, she couldn’t be loyal to any one airline. But in Seattle, Washington, she makes use of the Alaska Airlines credit card and its reward system.

16:18 What are the pros and cons of the annual fee situation?

Seonwoo says a lot of cards that have sign up bonuses waive the annual fee in the first year. Seonwoo’s strategy is that he signs up for the card, meets the minimum spend requirement, and by month 11 he has decided he won’t pay the annual fee and he will close the card. He says some cards are worth the annual fee, but he wouldn’t recommend keeping the annual fee card to people with lower income.

Seonwoo says that if you cancel within 30 days of being charged the fee, you can often get a refund. Ideally, set up a spreadsheet and reminders to track your credit cards.

18:54 How much money have you made using this strategy?

In his best year for strictly cash, Seonwoo has made about $2,200 to $2,500 from sign up bonuses. He says he has more credit cards and points than he knows what to do with. Most of his rewards have been in credit card points.

Emily says when she was in graduate school and pursuing cash sign up bonuses, she and her husband together made about $1,000. This can alleviate budgetary stress.

20:38 Anything else you want to add on this topic?

Seonwoo brings up how this affects your credit score. In general, when you apply for a credit card, there is a small hit because you have an inquiry on your report. He emphasizes that the point of your credit score is to help you get low interest rate loans or good rewards credit cards. If you’re not applying for a loan in the near future, you can use the credit score for new credit cards. He applied for cards until he started getting denied. He waited a few months, then tried again and got approved. He says people stress out a bit too much about their credit score. He says people should recognize the point of the credit score.

Emily points out that there are positive affects of having several credit cards. She also mentions some cases where you need to keep your credit score high, like when you apply for a new residence or take out a mortgage.

Further reading: How to Establish Credit in the US

24:24 How do banking sign up bonuses work?

Seonwoo says that the main difference is that instead of requiring you to spend money, banking sign up bonuses require you to already have money. You sign up for a new checking account, get a couple of direct deposits in there and keep it open for at least six months, and sometimes make some transactions. You can get between $100 or $350 for signing up for that account. Some have fees, but the bank may waive the fee for students or on other terms.

Emily mentions minimum balances, and Seonwoo clarifies that high balances requirements are usually for savings accounts. Checking accounts have minimum balance between $1500 and $3000, and the percent return is 10% to 20% in six months. This is a good option for your emergency fund.

Seonwoo recommends the blog Doctor of Credit, who has several blogs on these topics.

28:54 What is a 529? What are the benefits of it?

Seonwoo explains that there are two types of 529 plans. One is a prepaid tuition plan, which he is not talking about. The other type is an investment plan. At both the state and federal level, it is not taxed when you withdraw it for education expenses. Emily compares this to an IRA, where you are not taxed on the growth of the money if you use it for retirement. Seonwoo calls it a Roth IRA for education.

Seonwoo says 30 states and the District of Columbia offer a state income tax deduction for contributing to your 529 plan. Most states require that you have a plan with that state, but they don’t require a net contribution for the year. He says you can contribute the money to get a deduction, then pull it out to pay for your expenses.

Emily says cost of living expenses can be considered qualified education expenses for the 529 plan. She explains that you can put money into a 529, then take it out to pay rent, and then you get a state tax deduction or credit. Seonwoo says even if your living expenses are $0, you can still do this. The amount is set by the university’s financial aid office room and board estimate of the cost of attendance.

Seonwoo explains his specific example at Georgia Tech. The financial aid office lists the cost of attendance estimate for room and board as more than $10,000. In Georgia, a single taxpayer can deduct up to $2,000 of a 529 contribution. His marginal tax rate is 6%, so a deduction of $2,000 saves him $120 per year in state taxes. So, he contributes $2,000 to the 529 plan and leaves it in there for 10 days, then he takes it out. This is all it takes to get the tax deduction.

36:37 Where can we go for more resources?

Seonwoo says he learned about this by going through his state tax return to look for deductions. On his blog, he has a college tag and he has a post about the 529. The site Saving for College is a good resource for 529 plans.

Emily says this is a strategy that you need to investigate for your own state. Seonwoo mentions that there are other education credits and deductions available, but you can’t double count expenses. This 529 trick makes use of the living expenses, because this is unique to this tax benefit.

Seonwoo recommends printing to PDF the page from the financial aid office that documents the cost of attendance. This is documentation to keep if you’re audited.

40:50 Final Comments

This episode is about ways to alleviate budgetary stress by leveraging your assets and optimizing your usage of financial accounts.

41:17 Conclusion

Making Ends Meet on a Graduate Student Stipend in Los Angeles

March 25, 2019 by Jewel Lipps 2 Comments

In this episode, Emily interviews Adriana Sperlea, a PhD student in computational biology at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA). Living in Los Angeles is financially challenging to say the least, and Adriana has found ways to improve her cash flow over time, such as by doing a summer internship, moving into subsidized graduate housing, living car-free, and budgeting intensively. She has even recently started contributing to a Roth IRA! Adriana and Emily additionally discuss how Adriana discovered that she owed a large tax bill on her fellowship income and how she paid those back taxes and started paying quarterly estimated tax.

Links mentioned in episode

0:00 Introduction

0:54 Please Introduce Yourself

Adriana Sperlea is a PhD student at the University of California, Los Angeles. She is studying Bioinformatics through an interdepartmental program. She is an international student from Romania. Her stipend is about $32,500 and she says it goes up a little bit every year. Each month, she receives $2,400. She is in her fifth year of her program.

3:03 How do you live within your means in Los Angeles?

Adriana says that getting outside financial support wasn’t an option for her. Her family doesn’t have the means to provide her financial support. As an international student, she doesn’t qualify for subsidized loans. After her third year of graduate school, she had a summer internship that provided an income on top of her graduate stipend. This is the only extra income she has been able to receive outside of her stipend. Due to regulations on visas, international students cannot work side hustles. It is illegal for international students to be employed outside of the university. Emily says that international students are in a tough financial position because they don’t have access to options to loans or side income that U.S. citizen graduate students can access.

Adriana was on a training grant that required her to do an internship. It was the Biomedical Big Data training grant. She received pay for her internship and continued receiving her graduate student researcher funding. She lived in San Diego for her internship. San Diego is cheaper than Los Angeles, but she still had to pay her portion of rent for the apartment she shared with her partner in Los Angeles.

6:56 What is your approach to budgeting in Los Angeles?

Adriana says that before she created your budget, she had to figure out your housing costs. She lives in graduate student housing, which is subsidized and affordable, but there’s not enough available for all graduate students at UCLA. In Los Angeles, you have to shop around a lot and hustle to make housing costs work with your stipend income. Many people use Craig’s List. Finding housing that costs 30% of your income is not feasible in Los Angeles, but housing that costs 40% of your income could be feasible.

Adriana explains that the subsidized housing at UCLA is available through a lottery system. Those who get into the subsidized housing are allowed to stay for seven or eight years, basically as long as needed to complete the graduate program. The leases are month-to-month, so people move out at any time of the year. Adriana says there isn’t enough available, so she pushes for more student housing. She lives in a junior one bedroom, which costs $1,300 per month. She pays $650 for rent because she shares the one bedroom. It helps lower housing costs to share a one bedroom, but for many people this is not an ideal situation.

Adriana says that housing and transportation are the two big items for the budget. She doesn’t have a car, but she shares one with her fiancé. She says to find affordable housing, you need to spend time looking for uncommon offers, start early, and have patience. You may need to sacrifice certain amenities and quality, but look for places livable and clean. Ultimately, there is only so much you can do.

13:30 What is the system that you use for budgeting?

For her budgeting system, Adriana uses a manual spreadsheet. She inputs her income and monthly fixed payments first. Then she divides the remaining income by four, for four weeks of the month. This sets her variable spending income for each week. Whenever she buys something, she inputs it. She always has a sense of what she spends. She buys groceries on the weekends and cooks her meals, so she doesn’t go out to eat during the week. She doesn’t spend anything Monday through Friday. Often, she has about $100 leftover to use on the weekends for fun.

Emily recaps Adriana’s budgeting system. Adriana subtracts her monthly bills from her monthly income. With the remainder, she divides by four for each week. She uses it for groceries first, then doesn’t spend money during the week. She has wiggle room for miscellaneous and money leftover for the weekend. Adriana adds that if she sees something she wants to buy, she puts it on a list. At the end of the month, she looks at her list and ranks the things she wants. This reduces impulse purchases and formalizes the practice of delayed gratification.

17:30 What do you do about large expenses?

Adriana has a savings account with $2000 to $3000. She has this savings because her rent decreased since she moved into subsidized housing and she received extra income during her internship. She uses this savings account for big expenses that are necessary, and then she gradually fills it back up. She says that before her internship, it was really tough to make big purchases. For example, she didn’t go home to Romania often because she didn’t have enough for flights.

Emily recaps that Adriana got a boost from her summer internship. This helped her get ahead. She repays herself into savings instead of using a credit card. Adriana says she has credit cards for maximizing rewards but she does not spend unless she actually has that money. She has a healthy fear of credit cards.

20:16 Any other comments about your budget or how you make it work in Los Angeles?

Adriana has loosened the reigns on herself. She says she has gotten a sense of it after manually managing her budget for so long. Emily says Adriana has internalized her budget. Her budget is in her mind, so she is less dependent on the spreadsheets. Emily says that if you go to a new city, you get thrown. If there’s a big shift in your life that’s a good time to start carefully tracking again.

22:00 Can you talk about saving for retirement?

Adriana shares that about one year ago, she asked her fiancé’s dad about investing. Her fiancé’s dad talks a lot about investing, so she asked to learn more. He recommended the book A Random Walk Down Wall Street*. Adriana realized that investing is not rocket science and super simple. She thinks there is a weird culture around investing to make it sound more complicated than it is. She says that it’s easy, there’s a low risk way to do it, and during graduate school is the best time to invest. She thought that you have to worry about the market, but she jokes that the best strategy is to forget your password.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

Adriana uses a Roth IRA. This account pays taxes on her money now. She says this is better because during graduate school, this is the lowest tax bracket that she’ll ever be in. It’s the lowest tax bracket that exists, so this is a good time to invest. She puts $200 in every month. She can budget that now because her rent costs are low. Adriana likes to check in and see she’s accumulated money. Emily writes about investing on her blog and agrees investing is easy.

25:54 Can you tell us the story of your big financial mistake from your second year?

When Adriana started graduate school, she was taxed as an international student. As an undergraduate, she went to college in the U.S. She always had taxes withheld and she never had to worry about taxes. But after Adriana started graduate school, Adriana’s residency status changed from non-resident alien to “resident for tax purposes.” This means the U.S. can tax her like she’s a resident. This tax status changed in June of her first year of graduate school, but it was retroactive for the whole calendar year. She had never heard about this issue from anyone else. In June when her status changed, the IRS refunded her about $3,000 that was originally withheld from her. At the time she didn’t fully understand why she received this money, and she spent it. But when April came and she had to do her taxes, she learned that she owed about $3,000 in taxes. It was pretty scary for her.

Emily says this tax mistake is pretty common. For the first full calendar year that you’re in graduate school on a fellowship-style stipend, you’re supposed to pay quarterly estimated tax. Most people don’t know about this.

30:28 How did you pay the tax balance?

Adriana only had about $1,000 set aside. She feels a bit lucky that she was disputing with the IRS for money that she hadn’t gotten back due to a treaty between Romania and the U.S. that provides for international workers to get their taxes back from first five years from working with non-resident alien status. This dispute got resolved at the same time as her large tax bill. She also applied for a payment plan with the IRS. Anyone can do a payment plan with the IRS if you haven’t done one in past five years and your balance is less than $200,000.

Emily says that many people are intimidated by the IRS, but it sounds like Adriana had a good experience. Adriana says she spent a lot of time on hold. But if you’re a graduate student and you realize you can’t pay your tax bill, the IRS is a place to turn to and get a payment plan with no interest.

34:40 Final Comments

Adriana says budgeting can be tough and time consuming, and a little bit stressful. She says it’s worth it because it’s more stressful to not be able to pay rent. Emily says that it’s better to fess up, face up to reality of the situation, and engage with it. Don’t try to run and hide, because that compounds the problems.

35:18 Conclusion

Purchasing a Home as a Graduate Student with Fellowship Income

March 11, 2019 by Jewel Lipps 5 Comments

In this episode, Emily interviews Jonathan Sun, a second-year PhD student at Yale University. Jonathan purchased a house in New Haven after his first year in graduate school. He shares the process he used to search for and ultimately go under contract on a home, including applying for various incentive programs. But his home ownership goal was nearly derailed; his original mortgage lender pulled out because his fellowship income isn’t reported on a W-2, and he had to scramble to find another lender at the last second.

Links mentioned in episode

0:00 Introduction

1:02 Please Introduce Yourself

Jonathan Sun is a second year PhD student in Pathology at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. His stipend is $35,000 and it increases annually. When he moved to New Haven, he started by renting a two bedroom, one bathroom apartment with his girlfriend. He was paying about $1,500 monthly for rent.

3:10 What made you think that it would be a good idea to buy a home as a graduate student?

When he began his PhD program, Jonathan had in mind that he would want to buy a home. He thought between his first and second year would be the ideal time to buy. At this point in his PhD, he would know if he would be staying there for five or six years. Emily mentions that it’s a good idea to learn about the neighborhoods before buying a house. Jonathan agrees that it was a good idea to get to know the city and neighborhoods. He shares that if he had bought a home when he first moved to New Haven, he would have chosen a less convenient or less desirable neighborhood.

Further reading: Should I Buy a Home During Grad School?

5:11 Was your interest in buying a home specific to New Haven or anywhere you moved to for your PhD?

The idea of buying a home occurred to Jonathan when he was interviewing at Johns Hopkins. He saw that homes were affordable near Johns Hopkins. He realized that homes could be affordable even on a graduate stipend. When he chose to attend Yale, he did some housing market research on New Haven and saw he could afford homes there.

When Jonathan was interviewing for PhD positions, he met a current graduate student at Johns Hopkins who owned their house. He didn’t meet any graduate student at Yale who bought a home. Jonathan says owning a home as a graduate student is not that common in New Haven. Emily shares that when she was a PhD student at Duke University, it was fairly common for grad students to own home.

7:20 How did you prepare your finances in the months leading up to buying a home?

Jonathan worked on improving his credit. He says that good credit is definitely important. To get a mortgage at a decent rate, or even to get a mortgage at all, he had to have good credit. Jonathan also searched for incentive programs around New Haven. He says he saved about $10,000 with incentive programs. He shares that while Yale University offered incentive programs for employees, he could not qualify for them as a PhD student. He relied on incentive programs instead of savings because he was paying expensive rent in New Haven.

To research incentive programs, Jonathan talked to a real estate agent who pointed him to incentive programs. Shortly after Jonathan arrived in New Haven, he started working with an agent. Jonathan didn’t have connections to an agent when he started to process. He simply dropped into a real estate office and met an agent there.

9:54 What were the steps you went through to buy a home?

Jonathan started looking for houses with agents about three months after he moved to New Haven. He didn’t start seriously looking until six months after his move. He says that even if you don’t have intention to buy right away, it is important to familiarize yourself with the neighborhoods. He was looking at four different neighborhoods around Yale University. He got an idea of price range for homes and who are the neighbors. This process gave him a firm idea of whether he wanted to rent or buy. Most of the time, he looked at houses through private showings with his agent. He went to just a few open houses without his agent.

During Christmas break, Jonathan thought carefully about whether he should pursue buying a home or not. He talked to his friends and family, and it seemed like the right thing to do. He asked his family if they could help with his downpayent, and made sure to have open communication with his family.

Buying a home took at least two months of seriously looking. Jonathan went through some experiences of making an offer but not getting the house. He recalls three homes that he made an offer for, and there were some other situations where he almost made an offer. He didn’t want to settle for a house that he wasn’t satisfied with. However, his offers were outbid or made too late, and this added to the challenge of buying a home. Emily shares that in Seattle, she hears stories about bidding wars and people struggling to get the house they want, then they end up settling for a home that wasn’t all that they wanted.

13:54 How did you balance the process of buying a home with your first year of graduate work?

After his offers on homes were rejected multiple times, Jonathan felt demoralized. He had lowered his standards for a home. But then when he was browsing an online resource, he found a house that looked perfect. This house ended up being the one he bought. He says it was challenging to balance his graduate work with buying a home, but he was glad he did this in his first year rather than in his second year. He shares the example that on the day that he gave his offer, he was giving a presentation on a paper. He barely read the paper because he was so tired, but he still managed to give a compelling presentation. Right after he finished the presentation, he ran off to give an offer on the house. Much of the stressful part of home buying is waiting to get a response on the offer.

16:01 Tell us about the house that you ultimately purchased and live in now.

Jonathan was browsing online on the day before his presentation. He noticed the house was ten minutes away from where he was living. The house had just gone on the market that day. He pushed his agent to get a showing the very next morning. He got to meet the owner and exchanged contact information directly. The owner was a Masters student, and they had a connection. About two hours after the tour of the house, Jonathan gave an offer of $2,000 over the asking price. This was right after his presentation. He asked to receive a response in one day. The next day, someone else made an offer of $5,000 over the asking price with full cash. Jonathan raised the offer to $2,000 over the other offer. Jonathan’s offer was accepted, and he says that meeting the owner in person helped him get the house.

19:06 How was the process of getting a mortgage?

Jonathan didn’t have his mortgage ready until after his offer was accepted. He did have a pre-approval, but this didn’t work out for him. The lenders didn’t understand his financial situation as a graduate student with a stipend. The pre-approval came from a lender with connections to multiple banks. When you make an offer on a house, it is important for the seller to know that you can afford the house. For a pre-approval, the lender does a very brief credit check on you. The pre-approval shows that you can take out a loan of a certain amount. The pre-approval shows the seller that you can take out a loan for the house. Pre-approvals are very superficial, since they do not ask for a W-2. The lender asks for monthly income and proof that you reliably pay rent.

After his offer was accepted, Jonathan first explored incentive programs. He found an incentive program that stipulated if he stayed at least five years in New Haven, the program would pay at least $2,000 per year and contribute to the downpayment. The application for the incentive program took a while. Jonathan says that ideally the application should be done before submitting an offer. The seller wanted to move out three months after the sale, so this gave Jonathan the right amount of time to sort out the finances.

Jonathan qualified for two incentive programs, but he was happy to get just one because the programs were slow to respond. The incentive programs have a list of lenders that you have to use for a loan. The lenders were local banks in Connecticut. Everything seemed like it would work. He submitted all his documents, but about three weeks before closing, he got a phone call saying that they couldn’t pre-approve of his mortgage because the university wouldn’t be able to provide W-2. The university wouldn’t submit a form indicating that his stipend is guaranteed for 3 or 4 years.

Emily explains that there are different types of pay for graduate students. The W-2 is provided for assistantships and this represents a more typical employment situation. Jonathan says he doesn’t know the name of his pay. He gets the 1098-T, and he simply calls his pay a graduate stipend. Emily says that the 1098-T usually means you are funded through an award or outside fellowship. Lenders get confused by fellowship income. Jonathan says his acceptance letter from Yale says his stipend is guaranteed for several years, but the lender wanted the university to sign a form. The university was unwilling to compromise on signing that form that indicated the stipend is guaranteed. Emily says this “guarantee” of income is strange, because even with a W-2, the typical job is not guaranteed for multiple years.

28:15 How did you resolve the problems with the lender?

Jonathan was calling Yale’s financial office daily. He asked for help from the Dean. He started looking at the other banks on the incentive program’s list, because he had a feeling it wouldn’t work with this bank. There were a few banks around the university, so he went in person to the bank. He talked to a mortgage broker in person. They sat down together, and Jonathan filled out the form during the meeting with the mortgage broker at the new bank near the university. Jonathan resolved the situation because he found someone who was willing to work with him through his unique financial situation.

Jonathan said that this bank offered their own portfolio mortgage with their own requirements. It was harder to qualify for, but it came with a lower interest rates. He had little debt and good credit so he could qualify. It was a different type of mortgage than the first lender offered.

Jonathan was really caught of guard by the phone call from the first lender. It seemed fine, then suddenly he got the call, with no easy way to resolve the issue. Closing got delayed from Friday to Monday, but the closing went very smoothly with the new lender.

32:29 How does it feel to be a homeowner and to be a graduate student?

Jonathan says it feels good to come back to his own house. He can rent out some of the rooms. If he rents out two bedrooms of the three bedroom house, he can cover a good chunk of monthly mortgage. He says this is a great financial decision for him. The mortgage is less than what he paid in rent, plus he has the potential to rent out rooms. Two months after he moved in, he started renting out the rooms. He has two tenants and they are covering good fraction of mortgage payment.

Jonathan has to stay in the house for at least five years. He says that in five years, he will definitely be in a better financial situation from buying instead of renting. He bought in a very good location, in the up and coming neighborhood near Yale. He thinks the market value of the home will increase.

35:25 Have you thought about what you will do when you finish your program?

Jonathan says he has two different options after he finishes his PhD. First, if there’s a good market value to sell the home, he can sell it. Second, the location near Yale University will make it very easy to continue to rent the rooms in the house. He doesn’t see himself working in New Haven after his PhD unless it’s for an academic position.

36:24 Final Comments

Jonathan shares that he had a huge budget for his move, but he didn’t spend very much. He estimates he spent less than $1,000 to move into the house. He moved during the summer, so everyone was getting rid of furniture for free. He used his Toyota Corolla to pick up furniture, and hardly spent any money to furnish the house. He is replacing pieces over time as he saves money. He recommends overestimating expenses for a move.

38:44 BONUS INTERVIEW with Sam Hogan, mortgage industry professional.

Emily chats with her brother, Sam Hogan, who works in the mortgage industry. She asks him about solutions for graduate students and postdocs who are receiving fellowship income but want to buy a house.

Further listening: How to Qualify for a Mortgage as a Graduate Student or PhD, Even with Non-W-2 Fellowship Income

Sam Hogan is based out of Northern Virginia. He works for PrimeLending and he is licensed in all 50 states. He explains what lenders look for in the risk profile. They are looking for the ability to repay, and to see verification of history of the type of employment as well as the likelihood of employment to continue. Sam says that ten years ago, anyone could get a no document loan. This meant anyone could verbally verify their finances, but this practice led to many foreclosures. Now, lenders require written verification of employment.

Sam explains that in Jonathan’s case, the lenders sent a form for verification of employment to the university. On the form, there is a tiny check box that asks if employment is likely to continue. It is a yes/no checkbox. Universities won’t check this box because technically a PhD candidate could discontinue their PhD by going into the workforce or transferring institutions.

Sam shares that the best approach is to document likelihood of continuation of income. This may be in the fellowship offer letter. Conventional loans look for at least three years of guaranteed income. When it comes to approving loans, it is all about the presentation of the buyer. Sam says to work with someone goal-oriented like yourself, who will be able to over-document your income. For example, you can write a letter about why you got the fellowship, and include that even after your PhD you will have income. This approach ensures you have good presentation to the underwriter. Loan approval comes down to one person’s decision, a human’s opinion. He says to work with underwriters who are flexible and will give you personalized attention.

Emily recommends that PhD students and postdocs work with Sam because he understands fellowship income situations. Sam can be contacted by cell phone at 540-478-5803. He can be emailed at samuel.hogan@primelending.com. His national licensing number is 1491786. He has a Zillow profile under Sam Hogan.