In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Daren Card, a computational biochemist working in industry. Daren and his wife moved to Arlington, TX for his PhD and then Boston, MA for his postdoc, and she held K-12 teaching positions in both cities. He shares their financial journey, from managing their student loan debt through opening and funding IRAs. Daren and Emily discuss the tax-advantaged retirement account options available, such as 403(b)s, 457s, and 401(k)s, and how to spot red flags in your employer-sponsored plans.

Links mentioned in the Episode

Tax-Advantaged Retirement Account Options in Higher Ed and K-12

Teaser

Daren (00:00): This was one of these fellowship programs that’s actually channeled through me. So I sort of administered my own award, which is a bit unique, uh, in this way. And, and there’s some upsides to that. But some of the downsides are you don’t get sort of the, the, the financial benefits of, of being attached to a large university.

Introduction

Emily (00:26): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (00:54): This is Season 23, Episode 4, and today my guest is Dr. Daren Card, a computational biochemist working in industry. Daren and his wife moved to Arlington, TX for his PhD and then Boston, MA for his postdoc, and she held K-12 teaching positions in both cities. He shares their financial journey, from managing their student loan debt through opening and funding IRAs. Daren and I discuss the tax-advantaged retirement account options available, such as 403(b)s, 457s, and 401(k)s, and how to spot red flags in your employer-sponsored plans.

Emily (01:30):The tax year 2025 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs can access them for free. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they sponsor this workshop for you and your peers? You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Thank you so, so much for doing so! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s23e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Daren Card.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:06): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Daren Card, who currently works in industry at Colossal Biosciences as a computational biologist. But we are gonna be taking it back to his grad school days and his postdoc days to talk about his financial journey. And Daren, because this story involves both you and your wife and your kind of joint projects and finances, please introduce yourself and your wife and we’ll get started.

Daren (03:30): Yeah, so, so my name’s Daren as, as you’ve heard, uh, my, my wife’s name is Rachel. Yeah, we’ve, uh, we’re both originally from sort of rural western New York, uh, south of the Buffalo, New York area. And we actually met in high school at the very end of high school. We both shared a, a high school job at Burger King, ironically, a fast food job. And, um, yeah, got to know each other there. Started dating at the very end of high school, and we’ve been together ever since as, as partners in life. So we’re approaching now, uh, 10 years of marriage, uh, next year and 20 years of being together. So it’s been quite a ride. Um, we both sort of navigated through the community college system and the SUNY system in the, in the state University of New York. Um, both were interested in biology, generally speaking. My wife wanted to pursue more veterinary science. I became interested in conservation. Ultimately, uh, I got more interested in the research bug, like a lot of folks do. Um, and that brought us both down to Arlington, Texas, where I did a PhD at that point in time, uh, focused on evolutionary genomics, uh, sort of trying to link the, uh, the, the genes that we have in our, our cells to the actual physical traits that we see, uh, in organisms in, in nature. Um, Rachel worked for a few years in a veterinary field. Um, we ended up getting married in, in 2016, about 10 years ago now, and a week later, actually, Rachel got a new job as a, as a high school teacher, and she’s been doing that since, and she really enjoys that work. So I finished my PhD in 2018 and was fortunate enough to get a, a fellowship from the National Science Foundation, so shout out to NSF and the US government for funding folks like me and the work that we do. Um, and that brought me up to Boston area where I did a five year postdoc at Harvard University. And, uh, that ended about two years ago. And since then, I, I worked a couple years at the Broad Institute as a computational biologist, mostly focused on cancer genomics. And recently, just this summer I moved over, uh, to a computational biologist position at Colossal Biosciences, which is a bit more in my traditional area. So.

Emily (05:20): Wonderful. Thank you. Such, that was a very succinct overview. Let’s rewind a little bit through that process, because I wanna know what your finances, um, and I don’t know at what point you considered those are finances, yours, mine, whatever your situation was. Um, with your now wife, going back to the start of graduate school, what were your finances like? Like did you have assets? Did you have debts at that point? Maybe student loan debt. Um, did you know anything about money <laugh>? Um, and then what was the stipend like when you started grad school?

Daren (05:46): For, for me, you know, both my wife and I came out of, I guess sort of lower to middle class, uh, sort of backgrounds. We were in more of a rural area, so, you know, just didn’t quite have some of the access that you get in sort of urban areas to a lot of, of the, the benefits of, of sort of population density, I guess you could say. So, um, so because of that, you know, we, we both came out of bachelor’s degrees, uh, in that time period with, with basically zero assets, right? And we had to fund our way through, uh, through our undergraduate degrees using debt, unfortunately from, from, uh, student loan debt in the form of government debt, or in some cases private debt as well. So, so yeah, the, the, uh, the, the numerator of the equation here, I guess is zero in the form of assets.

Daren (06:24): Uh, the, the debt that we had, I had in the order of about 60 or so from memory, uh, k worth of debt from my undergrad, uh, education at a state, uh, university. Um, my wife had a bit more, she was about 75K or so, I think. Um, and yeah, as far as sort of knowledge and and mindset at that point in time, you know, minimal knowledge, I guess, you know, we’re both entering adulthood. We, we did share our, our, our finances largely by that point when we moved on to Texas together. Um, which, uh, had a lot of benefits, I would say. Um, and, uh, and yeah, but I’ve just always been sort of a nerd about various things I like to learn. And, and, and for whatever reason, I got the personal finance bug, uh, a couple years into graduate school, you know, um, and, uh, and yeah, just spent a lot of time perusing the internet, basically teaching myself about all this stuff.

Daren (07:10): You know, it’s all out there in some form, right? It’s tax code, um, uh, it’s not the most easiest thing to read, but usually people distill it down for you. And, and I took advantage of that in that time. So, uh, as a grad student, my stipend over my, uh, six years at UT Arlington was on the order of 30K A year, I would say. I was, uh, I was funded at, on a, a teaching assistant line, so I, I taught the whole time, including on the summers. Um, and my spouse, uh, was fortunate to have a bit more income. She sort of hovered around 50 to 60K through that time period. Um, and overall, and I, I do want to point this out, you know, I should have said it before, but I, I, I do think it’s really important to emphasize this. This is a partnership with my wife. Um, she takes as much credit for these successes as I do. I might be the one standing here talking with a PhD. Uh, she’s not an academic. She’s, she, uh, doesn’t have a PhD, but, uh, but I’ve been very fortunate in that this way, and I think it’s important to point that out. And not take too much credit here because my wife had a big role in this. And, and I think it’s also an important caveat too, um, because, uh, some things are just, you know, simply easier when you have two forms of income and you can split costs. And, and not all PhD students are gonna be able to have that advantage like I had over that time period. So, uh, that was a bit unique to me, I guess.

Turning Personal Finance Knowledge into Action

Emily (08:23): Yeah, very important context for us to have. Thank you for like, explaining that and caveating that. And, uh, yes. Wonderful. So you’ve mentioned that you, you know, kind of <laugh> developed this interest in personal finance, decided to kind of nerd out, learn about it in, you know, that time period when you were in graduate school. And so did you actually start applying that knowledge, um, like what were you doing with your finances during that period of time in graduate school and then also with your postdoc?

Daren (08:49): Yeah, yeah. So we, we, yeah, we did I think, start applying that pretty quickly. My wife has, has always been a, a saver <laugh>, you know, I, I guess I am too by, by nature for whatever reason. Uh, you know, I think we’ve had relatives that sort of knocked into our head early on, you know, given their limited means in many cases that, you know, you gotta think long term and, and, and not wait. Um, so we started pretty early, you know, by our mid, mid twenties I guess I would say. We were starting to contribute to, uh, IRAs. Um, I, um, is, is, is a great way of starting, uh, in this world. Um, you know, it’s flexible. Uh, it doesn’t have the highest contribution limits, but for our income at the time, it was perfectly sufficient, right? So, uh, you’re able to just to open that account yourself, right online, uh, at a, at a many different options out there to, to use that.

Daren (09:33): Um, I think at the time I used, uh, Betterment, uh, just for a, a, a bit of a reference. And my, my wife had started up a Vanguard account, uh, at that time. So, so that’s what we did the first few years during, uh, my, my PhD, um, when my wife switched over to a teaching job, she was able to access a, the state pension system, um, being a K 12 teacher. So she was, uh, starting to contribute in that way as well, on top of the IRAs. Um, and, and that’s basically the status quo up through, uh, 2018 or so when I left my PhD and, and, and wrapped that up. Um, when we moved to Massachusetts, you know, my wife obviously continued with the pension system, being a K 12 teacher. Uh, she’s also able to take advantage of what is called a 457 plan, which we can talk a bit more about here if you’d like, um, at one of her former school districts, uh, that she taught at before.

Daren (10:19): And, uh, and then, um, basically, uh, in my peer in my position as a postdoc, I was, I was funded by and an NSF Fellowship, so I think we made some contributions still to IRAs, but I didn’t really have access to like a 401k or a 403B. This was one of these fellowship programs that’s actually channeled through me. So I sort of administered my own award, which is a bit unique, uh, in this way. And, and there’s some upsides to that, but some of the downsides are, you don’t get sort of the, the, the financial benefits of, of being attached to a large university. Um, so, so yeah, I had to sort of sacrifice that for a few years, which was a, a little tough, I guess, but it wasn’t the end of the world. And, uh, and my last year I actually moved on to a more of a proper internal position and was able to contribute to a 401k for the last year, my postdoc. And then since, uh, in my positions, I’ve been contributing to a 401k, uh, as well. So, so yeah, that’s basically the journey through grad school to- till about now really.

Tax-Advantaged Retirement Account Options

Emily (11:13): Let’s dive into the tax advantage retirement accounts. ’cause I know you and I both really excited to talk about those. So, um, you’ve kind of mentioned already some of the different accounts you and your wife have had access to over the years. Um, just tell us more about what you learned about those accounts over time, what you think is important for the audience to understand.

Daren (11:31): Yeah, yeah. You know, I think the, the one big tip is, you know, don’t overthink it. Just, just pick one and, and go with it. <laugh>. That would be my sort of big tip here. Um, but yeah, we can spend a second sort of talking about some of the, the differences between these different accounts. So, so there’s a, uh, an IRA, so an individual retirement account, I believe is the acronym, right? Um, uh, so this is sort of the, the, the, I guess the beginner, uh, account, I think for most people. So it’s, anyone is eligible for it. Um, generally speaking, um, it’s flexible. You can open it up yourself. It doesn’t have to come through an employer. Um, the contribution limits are lower, that’s one of the downsides. I think they’re on the order of 7,000 now or so,

Emily (12:07): 7,000 in 2025. It’s gonna go up in 2026. Yeah, 7500, I think.

Daren (12:12): Yep. So, so that’s, uh, the, the, the option that we took advantage of in the beginning, you know, that was perfectly sufficient for our, our, our, uh, our situation. And honestly, it’d probably be perfectly sufficient for most grad students. I would, I suspect out there, uh, in, in the US at least. So, um, you know, when we moved beyond grad school, we started to think more and more about other things, and mostly that was because we actually became eligible for other sorts of retirement accounts. I didn’t have access to that sort of a thing as a graduate student, given my appointment at the university, uh, my wife, uh, became eligible for a, a pension system, but, um, but not really a, a 401k, right? Um, um, but yeah, when we sort of moved into graduate school and moved up here to Massachusetts, then we started to think about things like, uh, the, the very famous 401k, right, which comes typically from, uh, normal employment out in at businesses and things like that.

Daren (12:58): And then you have a very similar plan called a 403B, which is usually reserved for nonprofit sectors. Um, so universities typically have this type of, of plan. So these are sort of your quintessential retirement plans. They come through the employer. Occasionally you’ll get an employee, employee match, uh, not, not usually at a, at a a a college. I’m, I suspect, or at least for grad students and, and postdocs, maybe for faculty. Um, uh, but out in the sort of private industry and things like that, you can get nice employer matches that, uh, will sort of help to top up your contributions a bit. Um, so we’ve been taking advantage of that a lot since, uh, coming into sort of the postdoc and beyond phase of, of our, uh, of our lives. Um, and, uh, those contribution limits, I think on the order of about 24,000 right now, so much more substantial.

Daren (13:39): And then with the, with the additional contributions from an employer, you know, that’s sort of a hundred percent return right away, which can be pretty nice on at least a subset of your contributions. Um, so definitely take advantage of that for sure. And then, uh, a last account, I’ll, I’ll talk about, I mentioned it earlier, is a, uh, is a 457, uh, plan. Uh, this is another, these are all IRS tax codes. Uh, basically is, is people probably know. And, uh, honestly, I think this is maybe the best of the, the group in my opinion. There’s, uh, it’s basically the same as a 401k or 4013B as far as contribution limits and the way it’s administered and things like that. Uh, but one nice thing about it is, uh, and again, I should say it’s, it’s really reserved much more for I think, state level or local level, um, uh, government sorts of positions and, and things like that. So it’s a bit more restricted. You’re not gonna see this at a, at a company or something like that. Um,

Emily (14:28): Nonprofits can also have them sometimes. Um, but I do see it more often with like state university systems or something like that,

Daren (14:36): Right. Or local municipalities and things like that. Yeah. So, uh, but yeah, the, the real nice advantage of this is when you leave employment, there’s some, you know, I don’t remember the exact details now, it’s been a while since I’ve looked at it, but there’s some nice, um, there’s some sort of nice liquidation options. You know, usually with these accounts, you’re sort of locked out of them for, for good reason, don’t touch ’em. That’s the idea, right? Um, and, uh, so yeah, when you do have to touch them, like if you have an emergency or something, you take, you take a penalty, um, and you, you do typically with a 457 as well. But one of the sort of, uh, caveats of the way that they wrote the tax code here is that when you leave the service that provides that 457, uh, it is eligible, you know, all these things are eligible to get rolled over, but the 457 is a bit unique in that you can actually liquidate that money, you know, you have to follow certain procedures and, uh, and sort of tap into it in a way that you can’t with these other traditional, um, retirement plans.

Daren (15:28): So, uh, so that’s a nice one. We’ve took, taken advantage of that on top of my wife’s pension here in Massachusetts. Her previous district had, uh, access to a a 457 plan through the state of Massachusetts that’s administered at the state level to keep the cost low. It’s called a smart plan here. Um, and, uh, yeah, we’ve been able to take advantage of that a little bit as well.

Emily (15:47): So I’ve heard about the 457, I mean, in my work, it’s like, okay, you know, 457, 403B kind of similar sort of arrangements, but in the FIRE community, the financial independence retire early community, it’s kind of held up as this, like, hey, you can, if you separate from service, as you said, you can access this money earlier in ways that you don’t have to pull the tricks that you need to do with your IRAs and the 401k and all those other types of accounts. So it’s kind of held out in that community in particular as a really great plan to use, if that is your goal of stopping work before age 59 and a half, and, you know, trying to access some money earlier. So, um, I did a previous interview interview with Dr. Corwin Olson that people might wanna reference, um, talking about early retirement in the FIRE community, uh, for PhDs and people who work, again, in, in sectors where these kind of, um, accounts are permitted and offered. So that might be something for listeners to check out, um, as well. But it sounds like you, if you’ve tapped that 457 have not done so for funding your lifestyle in retirement, but maybe for other investment opportunities. Is that right?

Daren (16:51): Yeah, you know, and I, I sort of, you know, definitely in grad school and, and stuff, you know, who knows where life will take me, right? But, but I wouldn’t mind retiring early <laugh>, you know, I sort of look at, uh, personal freedom and the ability to sort of control your time is, is one of the ultimate forms of freedom that you can have in, in, in this world, and subscribe to the idea that that that is something to strive for. And, and, and that has been part of our, our, my, my collective goal with my wife is to, to somehow facilitate, you know, early retirement and it’ll be an open question, you know, how early it can be for us, uh, or if we’re even successful. But, um, but yeah, the 457 at least allows the opportunity to be able to draw down that money before you hit the age.

Daren (17:29): The age is where you’re typically eligible to do so under more traditional plans without a penalty. So, so yeah, if you do wanna retire early, that’s where the 457 can really shine. Otherwise, you know, if you’re gonna start, if you’re gonna retire at a traditional sort of 62 or, or 59 and a half, I guess technically is the earliest you can do, um, you know, it, it really doesn’t make much of a difference which of these you sort of go with. Um, so, so yeah, we’re in the weeds here a little bit, but, but these are I think, some useful, uh, tidbits of information that might be helpful to folks.

Emily (17:57): Yeah, I think I wanna go back to how you started this section, which is like, the main thing is just pick one plan <laugh>, and then like stick with it. So like, it always depends on what’s offered to you. So if nothing’s offered to you because you’re a graduate student, then you’re gonna go with an ira, probably a Roth IRA given your income at the time. Um, if you work in the private sector, okay, it’s probably gonna be a 401k if you work in, you know, universities or other types of nonprofits, government, yeah. Maybe then we’re talking about the 403B, maybe with the 457 as well, and then you have a bit of a choice, which one do I wanna prioritize? Or if you’re really mad about personal finance, you might do both.

Daren (18:29): That is a good advantage of the two. You can do both, uh, the 403B and the 457.

Emily (18:33): Yes. That, that is like, yeah. And most people who have these types of jobs don’t earn enough money to be able to do both. But if you’re a PhD and you’re well compensated and you have to be, happen to be in an industry that does offer both of these things, maybe you’re that unicorn where you actually could, you know, contribute to both. But the point is like, what is being offered to you, it’s probably not gonna be this whole suite of options unless like you two, you have a married couple who works in different industries with different types of opportunities and also maybe shifts over time. Um, what’s available to you? I’ll throw in as well self-employed person. I have a solo 401k, so like throw those options and advantages in there as well. If you have any kind of self-employment side hustle, you can open a solo 401k. So anyway, just to complicate things further, basically yeah, there’s even more. It’s out there. Yeah, it’s like an IRA like you said, is almost always available. There are technically some eligibility things about your income, but most graduate students and postdocs will qualify. Yeah, so there’s the IRA and then it kind of depends on your work after that,

Daren (19:30): Basically. Yeah, that’s a good take home. I think there, and, and yeah, there’s even more out there as, as you’re sort of alluding to, and, and there’s even more, you know, the, I think the other side of this, uh, the coin here that this sort of comes into this conversation that I think is maybe worth, uh, talking about as well is, you know, this is just a sort of the, the tax code, the vehicle in which you’re sort of investing, but, um, but there’s also what you’re investing your money in. And that can be just as important as the, the tax advantages and things like that is, well, you know, am I investing in something that’s gonna see a good return? Uh, am I ensuring that that return isn’t being eaten up by needless fees and, and things of that nature? And, uh, and honestly, I, I would say the, the 401k, 403B, that, that’s a bit easier to understand. It’s, it’s the, that aspect of things, the, you know, what you wanna put your money into, what things you might want to avoid. You know, when the salesman sort of comes calling and says, we have the best plan for you. Um, I think that’s where people get into more trouble, um, and where it takes a lot more effort to, to sort of understand what’s in front of you and, and what might be best for your, your personal situation.

Commercial

Emily (20:32): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Fees Associated With 403(b) and 457 Accounts

Emily (21:23): Well, going off of that, uh, comment about a salesperson, um, I wanna say that listeners might be aware, and you’re prob- most likely aware, um, that 403Bs and 457s have a bad reputation of being fee laden, uh, very expensive types of, um, vehicles in which to put your investments. And also the investments that you might be steered toward by people helping you with this might not be actually optimal for the decades of investing that are ahead of you. I think this reputation more comes from K through 12, those kinds of educators versus the higher ed, um, group that I’m normally talking to. But since your wife is in that former category, let’s talk about this a little bit more. And also, there’s sexism in this because women are, you know, dominating the K through 12 educational space, whereas men are dominating the higher education space. This is one of the ways that sexism ends up influencing our investments and our finances overall. But that’s me getting on a soapbox. Let’s let you get on your soapbox <laugh>.

Daren (22:21): Sure, yeah, yeah, please. This is, this is great. Um, yeah, you know, as you say this, this pertains more to the K 12 level. You know, some of this maybe propagates up to, to post-secondary levels and, and it’s something to be aware of, certainly. Um, but, but yeah, at the K 12 level, you know, again, we have 403Bs, 457, so on and so forth. Uh, but as I said before, beyond that, you’ve gotta pick, you know, what you wanna invest your money in, and there’s lots of things out there that you can invest your money in. Um, what I tend to personally invest my money in is, is, is what they call, uh, uh, low cost index funds. So these are, uh, basically funds that are indexed to the, the overall stock market, so like the s and p 500, right? So they basically try to, uh, select a mixture of investments that are out there that match the performance of what the overall market is doing with the idea that it’s diversified.

Daren (23:07): And it’s, and, and it might not give you the best return every year, but it’s at least gonna give you, uh, a reasonable return and, and be somewhat protected against, uh, big downsides or big down swings, uh, that you can have, uh, in, in certain situations. So, so yeah, that, that’s, that’s what I tend to invest my money in is, is sort of a low cost index fund. Um, and, uh, the big reason for that is, is the, the low cost. You know, so there’s the money coming in from the stock market, right? So you can go out and you can look at what that is. You know, the people keep track of that all the time, right? Uh, the downside is, you know, the, in some cases that folks aren’t maybe as clear as they can be about, um, the, the cost associated with these sorts of things.

Daren (23:46): Um, so with a low cost index fund, you know, this is something offered by like a company like Vanguard. They sort of pioneered this kind of thing. The idea is, you know, we keep the, the fees as low as possible, you know, it, it’s sort of a bit automatic. It’s, it’s sort of easy to manage because it is an index fund and therefore we can offer it with very low fees. Um, and therefore your most of your money is going into your pocket, and it’s not coming into the pocket of, of, say, Vanguard or whoever is administering these funds. Obviously, there’s some cost, right? These things aren’t free, but it’s, it is actually very, very low cost. Uh, typically speaking, uh, on the other side of the coin, unfortunately, are, are what I would say are sort of predatory practices, especially at the K 12 level, given the, the sort of abundance of K 12 educators that are out there, uh, uh, the, you know, across diverse communities and so on and so forth.

Daren (24:33): Unfortunately, you know, there’s, there’s folks that, that, that sort of, I would say, sort of prey upon this <laugh> in some way. You know, they, they’ll, uh, you know, they’ll, they’ll maybe put out something sort of similar to an index fund as far as its performance, but they’ll, uh, they’ll sort of riddle it with, with high fees. Um, and you may not think much about, you know, a 1% fee, no big deal, right? Um, but, but in the long run, it really adds up. Um, you gotta think about compound interest in, in it can help you, but it can also hurt you when it’s working against you, right? So, uh, you know, you can go out and do, look at some calculators online that will sort of show you over a 20, 30, 40 year time period, even a 1% fee. You know, if you were to knock that down to a, you know, by to a 10th of that, you know, a 0.1% fee, which is more akin to what you would pay, uh, at a low con-, low cost index fund, um, you know that the extra money that you would accrue over that time period is, is substantial. It’s, it, it almost knocks you over when you look at it.

Emily (25:26): It’s hundreds of thousands of dollars, typically.

Daren (25:29): So, so yeah, you know, it really is unfortunate. You know, my, my wife, uh, is in a district now. They actually, the district in which we, we reside, um, where they do have a pension system, and that’s what most teachers contribute to. And, and, uh, and then it, it just doesn’t feel like folks have really thought much more about everything else. Um, but, but there are certainly gonna be people that want to contribute to additional savings accounts. And at least at my, my, my wife’s school district, uh, uh, you know, all the plans that we’ve seen are either quite opaque. You have to sort of call people and, and get them on the phone and, and try to get the details. You know, there’s not like a nice sort of prospectus laid out of, of what you can invest in and, and what the costs are and all this sort of stuff, which alone is sort of annoying when, when folks are busy and have lives to live, right?

Daren (26:09): Um, but then on top of that, you know, when you sort of do dig in, you find that a lot of them are, uh, uh, these varieties that do have high costs associated with ’em that really can detract from the, from the, uh, the, the, the whole opportunity, I would say. So, uh, so yeah, it’s, it’s just unfortunate, at least in the case of my wife’s district that the, that the folks haven’t put more thought into that, I would say. Um, and the other sort of downside here is, is across Massachusetts, most folks have access to the state level 457 plan called the smart Plan locally. Uh, but for whatever reason, my wife’s district currently, uh, hasn’t adopted that plan. Um, which is a, a major downside, I would say as, as well. Um, and I, and I get this at some ex- to some extent, you know, most teachers will contribute only to a pension plan, never think about anything else, but not all teachers.

Daren (26:53): Um, you know, and, uh, and it really is a, it’s a missed opportunity, I would say, and it points out some, some, I I would say big problems in how sort of K 12 administrators and school districts in general, which are usually tied to local municipalities. Um, you know, even in cases with very strong sort of local union support, which is definitely the case up here in Massachusetts. Um, you know, uh, you know, still allow these things to happen. Um, you know, and, and especially in this day and age where we’re sort of facing these major teaching shortages, um, really this could be such a simple way, in a cheap way for a local school district to, to improve compensation for teachers in a way that that makes a difference, um, and, and, and not really add to their bottom line in a major way.

Daren (27:34): Um, so I would consider it really a very big missed opportunity in, in, and quite a shame. Um, and hopefully, you know, by, by pointing these things out, uh, and advocating for ourselves collectively, uh, we can improve these situations. But, but there’s definitely an uphill climb, um, in this way. And again, this mostly pertains to K 12. Some of this might trickle up to, to the post-secondary level. But, you know, I think the take home at the end of the day is, is, um, you, you really can’t rely on anyone else. Uh, you know, not to say you can’t trust people ’cause you can, but you really gotta do your homework. Um, uh, you know, you gotta make sure that the advice you’re getting is correct. You gotta make sure that it’s actually in your best interest and it’s not just a generic form of advice.

Researching Retirement Account Options Before Investing

Daren (28:13): And, uh, and that’s where sort of being a researcher I think can really be an advantage, right? So, you know, this is tailored towards PhDs and PhDs are professional researchers, so, uh, I guarantee you, if, if you can get a PhD, you can, you can learn the, the basics of this stuff and, and, and, and really help yourself out, I think in, in the long run. So, and it’s becoming better and better. I, I think, uh, there are advocacy, advocacy efforts sort of starting up in this way. A couple I can sort of point to is one’s called 403Bwise.org. Again, this is mostly k12, but they’ve sort of taken up this cause and have a, a podcast as well as a lot of information online and as well as school district, uh, report cards, uh, a lot of which are Fs and and Ds nationwide, unfortunately, uh, because of the, the, the, the, uh, the plans that are offered at most school districts.

Daren (28:59): Um, and another place that, uh, that is probably more useful, I think beyond the K 12 system is the state of California has a nice database of a lot of the, the, the, the, basically the retirement options that are available to K 12 educators in that state. And, uh, a lot of these generalize across other sectors and, and other non-profit, at least situations too. So if you’re looking for a, a, I would say maybe the best place to compare these sorts of plans, uh, in a, in a relatively unbiased manner, it’s not perfect. Um, I would say it’s the, the state of California, I can’t recall the name of the database right now, but, uh, but maybe go look that up. Um, and, uh, maybe you could put it in show notes or something like that. Um, that would maybe be the place I would suggest where folks, uh, can get more of a one-to-one comparison between these funds and really maybe get at the true details that sometimes can be hidden from you when you actually, uh, uh, go and talk to, uh, the folks at the banks and the financial institutes that offer these sorts of things.

Emily (29:52): Yeah, thank you for mentioning those resources. And kind of like you were saying in that like it’s really, um, important to investigate what’s available to you, get into the details, and then talk with your peers, right? Because whether it’s part of union or whether it’s just just talking to your colleagues, um, it’s very helpful to just get that information out there and things do and can change over time. If enough people ask, why is it that we’re not offering a 457 like every other district in the state or whatever, whatever the case is, then maybe that will eventually change. I wanna give you a small example and a big example of similar, uh, themes that I’ve run across. Um, the small example is I was actually, I had a, a series of speaking engagements recently for a university client. And so I was looking into their retirement account options for their postdocs, and I noticed that they, uh, you know, they had a 403B and a 457, uh, great.

Emily (30:39): And they had three providers, two you’ve heard of and one you maybe haven’t before. And they had a really nice table. Like you said, sometimes this information is hard to come across, but they had a really nice table laying out all of your investment options. There weren’t that many, there were maybe 10 or 12 across these three different providers and what the expense ratios are. And so I’m looking at this table going, good, good, good. We got some Vanguard funds, we got some Fidelity funds, everything’s low cost. Awesome, awesome, awesome. Oh, they’re really clearly delineating. What are the passive funds and what are the active funds? This is a very easy chart, at least for me to read since I have some familiarity. But then I looked right up at the top and saw there was a record keeping fee for each one of these different providers, which is just another add-on to the expense ratio.

Emily (31:19): And that the two you’ve heard of had very, very low record keeping fees and the one you hadn’t heard of, even though it offered the same investments as the other two, had a much higher, probably three to four times higher, uh, record keeping fee. And so I was looking at that like, oh, that one little number on this chart changed everything in terms of what I would choose if I were an employee at that institution. And I can’t give anybody financial advice, but when I ended up talking with the postdocs, I said, look at these numbers. Bigger numbers are not to your advantage, <laugh>, what should you conclude if you see these three numbers, two of which are much lower than the other. So again, just a call for like looking into the documents and having an awareness of how important fees are and really that they don’t buy you an advantage.

Emily (31:59): That’s kind of how we think that that money works. You’re gonna buy something that’s more expensive and it’s gonna be better, not the case. So it turns out in investing, um, statistically speaking, okay, so that’s a small example. The bigger example is, um, from my husband’s um, uh, biotech company that he’s worked for since he finished his postdoc, um, which has a startup. And so it’s gone through some growth over the years. Um, and they used to offer a 401k plan, um, through I’ll name and shame Edward Jones with American Funds. That was very high expense ratios. And we looked at that and we’re like, okay, we’re gonna use every other vehicle we have before we get around to this 401k, because there was not a match offered. So there’s really no advantage of using it unless we needed the contribution room, which eventually we did.

Emily (32:45): So eventually we started making some small contributions that as we were maxing out everything else available to us. Um, but over the years, again, the company grew and eventually their benefits changed, and now they have a fantastic 401k provider who has low costs and low fee options. And it’s just such a relief now that we’re using it more, we’re like, oh, this is great. Like, it’s actually not <laugh>, it’s actually to our advantage to use this 401k instead of trying to have to avoid it. Um, so things do change over time, but that, but my point is it happens in the private sector as well. You still have to be careful about, um, those expense ratios about who the providers are, about the investments that you choose. Do they offer those low cost, um, index funds or is it all actively managed stuff? So it’s not hard, you know, spend a couple of hours reading about this, read The Simple Path to Wealth, you will get it, you’re a PhD, you’re can be very capable in this area. And really, as we were saying earlier, this is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to you over your investing lifetime. So it is worth a little bit of time upfront.

Daren (33:41): Yep. Yeah, don’t be afraid to ask questions.

Achieving a Positive Net Worth

Emily (33:43): Is there anything else that you would like to share about your financial journey, the investment component of your journey, maybe at, you know, coming outta your postdoc or any other stage you’d like to share with us?

Daren (33:54): Yeah, maybe I’ll, I’ll conclude with, um, with a bit of an update on sort of where I am now. You know, like I said before, I’m a couple years out of a, of, out of a postdoc and, and yeah, we, we definitely have picked up momentum, uh, over the course of the postdoc and especially these last couple years moving into sort of my, my big boy job, so, so to speak, right. Um, and, uh, and, and yeah, so I, I’m happy to report and it, it’s a big source of pride, I think for me and my wife that we, we did do a little bit of math recently, you know, looking at, you know, our, our, our, our student loans, which haven’t really moved much, but, but that’ll change soon. Um, and, uh, as well as, you know, the, the money that we have accrued across these various sort of investment vehicles as well as sort of personal savings and, and, and, and other things that we haven’t even gotten into today.

Daren (34:35): And, uh, and I can say that we, we have a positive net worth, which I think is an a major accomplishment. We have, you know, in, in the, you know, having collectively over a hundred thousand dollars worth of student loan debt. So, um, so yeah, you know, you know, I’m now sort of approaching 40 <laugh> to age myself. Um, so I’m not super old, but, uh, I’m not as young anymore. But, you know, like we started, I guess around 25, so we’re, we’re, I’m going on 13, 14 years now. Um, so, so it’s, it’s time. It’s not no time, but it’s not a lot of time either. Um, you know, and, and like I said, we, we came in with basically no savings in the beginning.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Daren (35:10): So, you know, I, I think, uh, the, the biggest advice I can give to people is, is just, just start now. Start start as early as you can. Um, the, the big thing there is just the compound interest. It’s, it’s your your best friend here. Um, you know, look for those low fee things so that, uh, there, there aren’t fees compounding on top of your compounding interest <laugh>. Um, and, uh, and yeah, the other big thing like we’ve been saying right along is, is is do your research, you know, tap into your professional skills as a PhD and, uh, and, uh, you know, I think in doing so, you can set yourself up for a, a more comfortable retirement and perhaps a bit less stress along the way. And, uh, and I think, you know, due to Emily and other folks that are out there, there, there are an increasing number of, uh, sort of resources and information that’s available. You know, when I started sort of nerding out on this 12 years ago, it was fewer and further between, but, but you know, there is a bit more of a cottage industry now of folks trying to advise folks on the best way in which to think about these things, or at least provide all the options so that people can make more informed decisions.

Daren (36:08): So on top of this, I think, uh, another good source I’ve seen that I haven’t shouted out already is, uh, I think there’s like white coat investing or something. There’s a, a [white coat investor], MDs basically, which is a pretty good proxy for PhDs in many respects and have a lot of the same, uh, you know, career stages and, and, and affiliations and things like that. So if I could fi, if I could point you to anything that’s sort of most relevant besides Emily’s things tailored to PhDs, it might be sort of the white coat investment, uh, side of things. Um, they do a pretty good job, outlining a lot of this stuff.

Emily (36:36): Yeah, I agree. They’re a great resource, especially the more your profile looks like that of their typical audience member, which is like you having student loan debt, having significant student loan debt, and then also having a good salary, which I’m sure you do now on the other side of the educational journey. Um, the more you look like that profile, the more that community is gonna benefit you. And of course, if you get really into investing, then they’re gonna benefit you as well. ’cause they talk a lot about that. Um, amazing. I love that advice. Um, thank you so much for, um, sharing that with us and for sharing your story and your insights. And I just echo like everything you said about yeah, doing your research and starting early, of course, it’s difficult during your PhD to get compound interest working on your side, but we are in PhD training for a long time. I mean, you had six years in your PhD, five years in a postdoc had you not gotten started, you know, with the investing side of things. Like not a late start exactly, but it would’ve been later <laugh>, right? And that time is really on your side. So thank you so much for sharing this with us today.

Daren (37:34): Well, well thank you Yeah. For providing a forum to, to sort of share my story. Uh, it’s, it’s been a, a wild ride in some respects, but it’s been enjoyable. I’ve, I’ve learned a lot and it’s great to sort of be able to impart that onto other folks, um, you know, to help them avoid maybe some pitfalls that are certainly out there and, and to, to hopefully, you know, to, to, to help them to maximize their personal finances. Uh, both now and, and well into the future.

Outro

Emily (38:08): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by me and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

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