Personal Finance for PhDs

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PhD with a Real Job

How This PhD Conducted a Job Search and Evaluated Multiple Offers in the Private Sector

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Sean Bittner, a newly minted PhD in biomedical engineering, on how Sean navigated finding and landing his first post-PhD job in medtech innovation. Sean timed his start date for immediately after his grad student position finished so as to not miss any paychecks, and they discuss how early Sean started networking and applying for positions to enable that smooth transition. They also talk through the strategies and tools that were most helpful to Sean in the job search process. Finally, Sean lists the elements of a job offer and what questions you need to ask to fully understand the salary and benefits. This conversation will benefit current graduate students and PhDs who are planning to pursue private sector jobs in the near or far future. You won’t want to miss Sean’s powerful concluding advice!

Links Mentioned in the Episode

How This PhD Conducted a Job Search and Evaluated Multiple Offers in the Private Sector

Teaser

00:00 Sean: Graduate school doesn’t always, I think, do a great job of reminding students of their worth. Of not just financial worth, but also their work worth and just like worth as an individual. But that was huge in my job search, was understanding like, no, no, I deserve to be here. You know, I deserve to be having conversations with working professionals that I admire that I think are, you know, extremely brilliant and hardworking. Like, I deserve to be here because I’m those things too. I did a PhD. I did these other things that qualify me to be here. This is myspace and I get to take it.

Introduction

00:42 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 14, and today my guest is Dr. Sean Bittner, a newly-minted PhD in biomedical engineering, on how Sean navigated finding and landing his first post-PhD job in medtech innovation. Sean timed his start date for immediately after his grad student position finished so as to not miss any paychecks, and we discuss how early Sean started networking and applying for positions to enable that smooth transition. We also talk through the strategies and tools that were most helpful to Sean in the job search process. Finally, Sean lists the elements of a job offer and what questions you need to ask to fully understand the salary and benefits. Don’t miss Sean’s powerful concluding advice! Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Sean Bittner.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:48 Emily: I am delighted to have Dr. Sean Bittner back on the podcast. He was actually a guest on season six, episode 12. This was while he was in graduate school. We talked a lot about budgeting, how he and his wife were budgeting accrding to their values. Fascinating episode, recommend listening to it. But Sean is back because he very recently finished his PhD. We’re recording this in mid-September. He finished last month, and also started his post-PhD job last month. And so we’re going to be talking about that process of like, how do you do the job search, like while you’re finishing up your PhD? And how do you evaluate job offers? So really excited to talk to you, Sean. Will you please introduce yourself further for the audience?

02:26 Sean: Sure. Yeah. Thanks again, Emily. My name is Sean Bittner. I’m a recent PhD grad in bioengineering from Rice University. Recent as in four weeks ago. So very exciting, still kind of in the thrill of being done. And then, yeah, I also started my post-PhD job the day after, and I’m excited to just chat about the job search, and all the things to think about.

Timing Between Finishing PhD and Starting New Job

02:53 Emily: I know, because this is something that I’m sure is on the minds of many, many graduate students. Definitely in like the year when they’re finishing up, but maybe even the multiple years before then. This can be a great conversation for postdocs as well. Even people who have already navigated one job search might, you know, pick up some tips or at least some different perspective on how you did things. Of course, this always ends up being very individual, but so happy to hear your story. So the first thing I want to ask about is timing, because you just mentioned that you didn’t miss a paycheck between finishing up with your however you were being paid, assistantship or fellowship or whatever, and going into your job. So like, wow. Like if that was your goal, how did you manage to work out the timing that way?

03:32 Sean: Yeah, yeah, so this is a good thought. I would say it was a long time planning. There are a couple of elements there. One is scheduling the thesis defense, I think is always a little bit hairy just based on having to get four or five, six people in the same room at the same time. It’s hard. But I actually defended my thesis two months ago, so it was July 13th and had about a month’s worth of just wrap up and carry over after that. But I also had two weeks of vacation to use still. So right after defending, my wife and I took a much=needed, I think well-deserved vacation. And I came back, I had two weeks of work left, and then I was trying to set it up so that, okay, I’m done.

04:12 Sean: I already took my vacation. So I don’t need to take a bunch of time off between grad school and work and trying to get a start at my new job. Some of the companies that I was looking at were starting immediately, or starting a week later. But it wasn’t, you know, start in two or three months. I think I tried to make sure that it was just a consistent transition. I also wouldn’t necessarily know what to do with myself for three or four weeks off. I just, I like, I don’t know, having a purpose and going and doing some cool stuff.

04:41 Emily: Another thing you mentioned in there is that you defended two months ago, and then you had this bit of extra time, which I think is really good idea. You’re going to have to do edits on your thesis. Maybe you’re trying to get a last paper, you know, submitted or there’s always kind of wrapping up stuff. So I definitely think it’s good to time that defense a little bit before your pay would end.

04:59 Sean: Right.

04:59 Emily: It sounds like you, like were you paid through the end of a normal like semester term, like the summer term, or was your end date like somehow, otherwise negotiated?

05:08 Sean: Yeah. So, this is another good question. It depends on the department, the advisor, the school. The academic year is also your pay year at Rice, for grad students. And that ended on August 15th. After you defend your thesis, you can have a conversation with your department and with your advisor about, okay, how long do you actually need to finish everything up? And the discussion that we had was, I’m going to take two weeks vacation. I haven’t taken that yet. When I get back, I have about two weeks worth of work left to wrap everything up, finish any final changes and edits to my thesis. I didn’t have the last paper to try to complete on the tail end. So I didn’t have that time crunch. But then also there are students still working in the lab. So, you know, making sure that they kind of have a good turnover plan, I don’t want to just leave them high and dry and say like, oh, bye I’m out. You know, I wanted to make sure that everybody that I could assist in bringing up to speed, I did that before I left.

Transparency About Job Start Date Flexibility

06:08 Emily: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like you sort of knew that this date, this, you know, academic year turnover was a reasonable date. And so did you time your job search process then around knowing that was the ideal date to start, like mid-August?

06:22 Sean: Yeah. I had more of a guesstimate than a true date. Like, I didn’t know for sure, “Oh, it’s definitely August 16th.” Right? But I had an inkling of when my thesis defense would be, I knew it would be late summer, ended up being the middle of July. And when I was job searching, I was very transparent about that. Some people were looking for, “Oh, we need you to start on Monday.” Obviously that didn’t work out. And then some people that I was talking to later, I was open from the beginning. I’m interested in this opportunity, but it’s going to be sometime in August. And all of those companies had hired PhD students before. So they’re familiar with the idea that I don’t necessarily know the exact day I can start. But I got out of the way pretty quickly any really serious mismatch, like as I said before, I was talking to somebody briefly and they were like, yeah, we are excited about you, but we don’t have a job open until January. And I said, Hmm, I don’t think I can wait that long. And I’m glad that I didn’t because, you know, we’ll talk about this later, but I love the job that I’m in. So, I wouldn’t have wanted to wait for a maybe of a job that might open. But I think I was as clear as I could have been, I guess that’s the way to put it.

07:35 Emily: And let’s talk, I’m going into so much detail about these timing questions, because for me it was a source of stress and I think it’s a source of stress for other people as well. So for the types of jobs that you were looking for, it sounded like the company’s timelines were quite wide-ranging from, I want you to start next Monday, you know, if they were to hire you to, we have many, many months lead time on this. And it’s a little bit different from the academic search process, which is a little bit more well-known. It’s, you know, these fixed portions of the year that are dedicated, determined from parts of the process. So how did you like figure out what these timelines were and then therefore be able to backtrack and know how early you needed to start these conversations and start applying?

08:16 Sean: Yeah, I would say it was unique to every company, honestly. Similar to how you mentioned with the academic traditional academic pipeline, there are fixed dates in a normal schedule. And even with coming from undergrad, thinking about getting a job straight out of undergrad, there’s kind of a fixed schedule. You apply in the fall. You might hear something December, January. They expect you to start in May. Like that’s a standard thing. And so when I was looking at this in February and March of this year, I was kind of thinking the same thing, like, okay, I’m going to start talking to people. But I’ve learned, I work in the med tech space now, and I learned that it’s really dependent on what each company’s needs are at that time. Some companies I talked to, they had to fill somebody that day, like they needed somebody immediately.

09:00 Sean: And some of them, it was, you know, our fiscal year doesn’t roll over until August and we can’t add a new position until then, right? So I knew it was going to be, like I said, I knew it was going be sometime over the summer. And so I was trying to narrow down to some people. And again, just trying to get them to work with me a little bit flexibility-wise on, I won’t be available until August, but on the other hand, I will be available in August, right? And so like, how can we work this out?

Starting the Job Search

09:30 Emily: And so, maybe you said this and I missed it. So how early did you start your job search?

09:37 Sean: It’s a little hard to narrow it down just because like I would say, you know, I was talking to people for quite a while. I would say I was talking loosely to people as early as the fall, maybe winter of 2020. And then I started to have more serious conversations about job stuff in maybe March of this year.

09:58 Emily: So it went maybe more from like networking, feeling each other out to like, okay, we’re going to like put pen to paper and like get your name in front of somebody.

10:06 Sean: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And, I can’t remember the exact date, but the call that ultimately got me in front of the people to get me in front of to get the job that I have now I think was in June, maybe. So a relatively quick turnaround in terms of, or compared to what I was expecting. You know, I was thinking like, okay, I’m gonna apply in March and they’re going to have me start five months later. And it was pretty quick.

10:34 Emily: Yeah. I guess I’ll chime in a little bit more on this timing. And of course I have not had a “job” job post-PhD, but my husband has. He has also a PhD, and so he works for a startup and it was quite small at the time he was hired. I think he was maybe employee number 12 or something like that. And they hired him and another one of his colleagues right around the same time. And for him, it was a very quick interview process because he was already in a postdoc that was very casual. It could end at any time. And so he was like, yeah, like we want to get started in a month or two or whatever. Like totally we can do that. That’s how quickly he was hired. His colleague who was hired at the same time, had a start date of about six months later.

11:12 Emily: So that same company was very flexible with these two different candidates. And probably that’s because they’re a startup that they could be that flexible. But I just thought it was interesting that like both of them were like, you know, coming out of PhD, coming out of postdoc and had different timing needs and the company was able to accommodate both of them.

Network or Nothing

11:29 Emily: So when you embarked on the networking that ultimately led to applying, what, you know, had you picked up in terms of strategies, maybe from your professional development during graduate school, maybe from outside sources, that were really useful to you during that period?

11:44 Sean: Yeah. So I think I’ll start with the easiest one. Everybody says it, it’s almost a cliché, but it’s really true. It’s network or nothing for the most part. It’s you got to know somebody. And I don’t mean like, oh, your, your dad’s on the board or like you have a family friend. But all of the jobs that I applied for, I knew someone that put me in front of someone else that put me in front of somebody else. Zero of them were I had the most compelling application on LinkedIn. And I think, like I can’t understate that enough, I guess. Like LinkedIn is super useful for finding information, getting connected to people, learning about the different types of jobs that are available. But ultimately, it’s a stack of resumes in terms of applying. And in fact, I didn’t actually formally apply, in the traditional sense, until well after I had had an inkling that the company was interested in me. And that’s true for all of the companies I applied with. So I think the number one is work on your network, reach out to people, just try to get in front of, you know, get some face time, and tell people who you are and why you’re excited about them.

12:52 Emily: You’re right. Everybody says networking and it’s really intimidating for a lot of people to hear. So please, can you be more specific about like, who was in your network? Like who were those first, the first layer of people that you like reached out to, and then maybe there was another layer, but who was that initial network?

Network Composition

13:09 Sean: Sure. So, of the opportunities that I was considering at the time, each of the companies I got connected to by one person, or in one case, two people. One of them was a former manager of mine. They had moved on but was connected to one of the companies, introduced me. The second one was another student in one of the master’s programs at Rice, went and took a job at this company. And I kind of knew them and I was familiar with the company. And I just said, “Hey, I’m interested in your job. Can you tell me about it? Not that I want to take your job, but I’d like to maybe work for your company.” And that’s actually the job that I ended up taking, is they ultimately connected me with their boss, and that person’s boss is the CEO. And we sat down and had a chat.

13:57 Sean: And they just said, “Yeah, we’re looking for somebody. You seem like you fit the bill. Let’s let’s talk.” The other one was somebody I had worked with in the past. I had done a little bit of, of just like, I guess, diligence work is the best way to describe it. But I had done some work for them in the past when they were at a different company. And then when they moved, they said, “Hey, I have a job open. Do you want to talk about it?” And I said, “Sure. You know, I’d love to chat.” So all of the people that I networked with, it wasn’t just, again, I reached out to them once on LinkedIn. It was people that I’ve worked with explicitly in the past that can speak of my skills, that can speak of, ideally, my personality. People that knew me more than just a face that’s that’s on LinkedIn.

14:44 Emily: Absolutely. I totally agree, that first layer does not have to be like reaching out to strangers. Like no, it should be people who, as you said, have some personal connection with you, hopefully through work, but not necessarily, who can then, you know, forward your name onto the other right people. And I think that, you know, current graduate students like need to know that their peers around them, and potentially their advisors and other professors around them as well, can very well serve as that first layer. So I know one of my, like sort of regrets in graduate school, was not being better connected with the other people in my program, especially the people ahead of me. Let us just say, leaving Duke before me, whether that was PhDs graduating before me, whether that was masters students or undergrads coming in after me, make those connections, too. Because they all are going to be out there potentially, you know, in a place that you’d be interested in working. So those connections are so, so important. And that networking, the “networking” quote unquote, is just your normal connections with other people who you work with and are around during your graduate degree. It’s much more casual at the beginning, but you have those loose connections and then you can pull on them later as you did. And just let them know, I’m looking for work. I’m going to be graduating at approximately X date. Your company sounds cool. Can we talk about that more?

15:59 Sean: Yeah, I think I had, I don’t want to say an easier time, but I have a fairly gregarious personality. It maybe becomes a little bit more natural to me to just kind of get out and talk to people. But it’s really true that, maybe not the reason I got my job, but like the connection that got me the job that I have is a masters student that I knew left Rice before I left Rice, was working at the company for a few years and I said, ‘Hey, can we talk?” Done. And that was it.

LinkedIn and Beyond

16:26 Emily: So we mentioned networking, you mentioned LinkedIn. Did LinkedIn come into play, particularly in your search, given that networking in real life was actually what led you to, you know, the right place?

16:40 Sean: Yeah, so again, I think it’s a good informational tool. It certainly came into my search in terms of figuring out what other people in my field were doing. And then also, in a lot of cases, LinkedIn was the first touch point. For example, this masters student that I’ve talked about a couple of times, that was my first message on LinkedIn, was, “Hey, can we, you know, have a phone call and set it up?” Everything after that was phone calls, emails, et cetera. But the first message was LinkedIn. And same thing, you mentioned other students in your department, other students in your program and at the university, some of my other connection points were prior students in my lab that graduated years before me with their PhD. But you kind of have this like familial relationship because you came from the same lab, you know. They want to see other students from that lab succeed. So same thing, you know, either LinkedIn or just having access to their email and just cold emailing and say, “Hey, I’m from so-and-so lab. I’d love to chat about your own experience in job searching. Can we set up a call?” But yeah, LinkedIn is hugely useful. I think it’s just not the beginning and the end, it’s the beginning.

17:51 Emily: Yeah. Any other strategies that you want to share with us that you found useful during this process?

17:54 Sean: I think one thing to keep in mind that we maybe haven’t touched on so far is, the network that you have is bigger than you think it is. And that’s not like a empty hollow way of saying, like, you don’t know who other people know until you ask them. Example: I have a friend of a friend who, when I said, I’m interested in this company that I’m looking at, they said, oh yeah, I know so-and-so manager at that company, let me put in a call. And I didn’t ask for that. You know, I didn’t ask for, can you recommend me? I just, they asked me about how my job search was going, and I was honest about it. And the next day I got an email and said, oh yeah, I heard from your manager, friend. I’d love to chat. Let’s talk about it. So there is the element of like, you have to network, but there’s also asking, just being explicit and asking your friends and your colleagues, like who do you know that might be able to help? Because that’s ultimately what we’re all here to do. I would love if somebody from my lab, my department reaches out to me that knows me and said, “Hey, I’m looking for a job. Can you help me?” Love to, I’d be happy to help if I can.

19:02 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s a really common human thing. Like if we can make someone else’s experience go easier, it’s something that we’ve already done in the past. And you’re also, you know, if you actually get a hire, like you’re also helping your company and so forth. So it’s kind of like a win-win, win-win all the way around for networking.

Commercial

19:20 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Our next live discussion and Q&A call is on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to PFforPhds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

The Anatomy of a Job Offer

20:33 Emily: Okay. So, you’ve networked, you’ve gotten your name in front of the right people, you’ve interviewed, and you’re finally getting, you’ve mentioned a few different job offers. And so what actually did the job offers look like, and what were the components that you were sort of considering?

20:48 Sean: Yeah. Yeah. So, this is, I think the meat of the conversation today. The standard job offer, I feel like, baseline, has two components. You have base salary, and you have ancillary benefits, whether that’s vacation time or sick time, like just time off basically. But, there are other things to consider there. And so, it’s interesting. I kind of had the gambit of a variety of different things that were part of the quote unquote package. Here are some things in no particular order that it could be: straight salary and, you know, vacation or sick time or whatever. One of them might be salary. And if you’re at a startup, it’s salary plus stock in the company, it could be. Some other things that other companies do is you have a salary, but also we have a retirement plan, whether it’s 401(k) or 403(b). You’ve talked about that a couple of times with other students, or I guess other professionals now on the podcast. Those things are things to keep in mind. Whether the company offers health insurance or not is hugely important.

21:54 Sean: But all of these things together are a much larger conversation than just the salary number that you see on maybe your job offer. Something else to keep in mind is you may not see those other things on your offer letter, if that makes sense. So not that they’re, you know, trying to be hidden or anything like that, it just may not be part of the standard form email that you get of like, “Oh, we’d like to offer you this job. Your compensation is this, you have this many weeks off.” I asked I think all of those questions to all of the companies, and they were very forthcoming with the information once I asked. But it wasn’t part of their standard letter. There’s also some differences in time. Sorry, I’m kind of all over the place.

Variable Employee Benefits

22:36 Sean: As an example, the company I work at now, the time off policy is really generous. I think it’s everything, sick vacation, et cetera, is all PTO, or paid time off, but it’s unlimited PTO, right? So, I don’t have this weird situation where like, “Oh, I’m out of sick days, but I’m sick. Or my kid is sick, or I have to take my animal to the vet or something.” And on the other side, like I don’t have to feel like I can’t use any of my vacation days, right? Like there’s a very open policy about that. Some of the other companies, it was very explicit. You have 40 hours or 40 hours of sick leave and, you know, two weeks of vacation or whatever. I would say that’s more of a standard notice. It’s two or three weeks vacation and then a fixed amount of sick time also.

23:23 Sean: On the stock side, I think there’s pros and cons to stocks. I’m not a huge single stock guy, for retirement. So, you know, when I look at single stocks, it’s kind of a gamble. You know, they could be worth a huge amount of money if that company skyrockets. They could also not be worth very much if something happens and, you know, especially in biotech. That comes and goes, right? And so like, you kind of got to weigh, okay, is this a gamble I’m comfortable taking? And then the last piece, I talked about retirement before. One of the companies I was looking at offered a retirement package. It was, I forget if it was a 401(k) for 403(b). But it was required participation up to a certain amount. So, it wasn’t a match, it’s just they set it up so that, you know, X percent of your salary has to go in no matter what. That can be valuable because it prevents you the legwork of having to go set it up yourself.

24:15 Sean: But, as you’ve talked about previously, if you’re interested in having a little bit more control over your own retirement package, you can set up an IRA. You can just set up external mutual funds. If they have a plan at work, they will send you information about the funds that they have available. And you can kind of make a decision on how was the track record for these funds? Can I get, you know, better returns elsewhere, whether it’s an IRA or just a mutual fund in a non-retirement account. I think all of that nuance like doesn’t immediately come to mind when you’re first looking at a job, but it is important. And I also want to just put a small asterisk here. Money is only part of the conversation. Ultimately I took the job that I took because I love the work, and I’m really passionate about the type of work that I’m going to get to do. But it is part of the conversation.

25:08 Emily: Love everything you said, like, exactly right. The salary is going to be upfront. Maybe the time off policy will be upfront. Maybe they’ll mention something about healthcare or retirement or insurance or something, but you’re probably going to have to do another layer of questions and say, “Hey, send me your booklet on your, you know, retirement policy, and I’ll take a look at it.” Or like, let me know, like, you know, I mean, insurance is such a massive, massive issue. Especially, like I’m thinking, you know, I’m married, we have two children, we’re all on my husband’s workplace insurance. So like how much of a premium his employer pays versus how much he pays. The deductibles, all that stuff matters a lot because we have a lot of people riding on that one, you know, policy.

25:49 Emily: And maybe, you know, you have to evaluate how much that matters to you, but if you are supporting a family on one insurance policy, you could be looking at a premium of a thousand dollars a month easily for an employer that doesn’t help out that much, or even more, versus an employer who pays a hundred percent of the premium or 90%. It’s a massive, massive difference. But that’s very individual, you know, you have to really decide what’s more important to you. Is it the vacation policy? Is it the healthcare? Is it that the retirement plan has a match? And that’s super, super good to you or whatever. And maybe that’s why they’re not that upfront with this because like salary matters to everyone, but like maybe there’s different levels of caring about these other elements.

26:26 Sean: Yeah. And it could also be you know, no fault to the company. It may just not be prudent to kind of give all that information out upfront. So for example, some of the companies that I looked at, I knew that there was a retirement plan. Or I knew that there was health insurance provided. But in the case of health insurance, which you just talked about, I didn’t actually know what coverage was available to me until after accepting the job, or in the case of one of the ones I didn’t take, until after I would have accepted the job. So, that’s also a little bit of a gray area where, okay. I know that there is some type of insurance provided, but I wouldn’t get to decide whether, like you said, it would be better for my wife and I to stay on my wife’s insurance versus change over to this new one until actually taking the job.

Comparing Job Offers

27:12 Emily: Exactly. So you were in the fortunate position, the well-timed position of having multiple offers, it sounds like simultaneously, or at least like overlapping or something on the table. Yeah. And so you could actually look and say, not it’s a yes or no on this job, but like, what do I like about this job offer versus this one? And of course the work’s important. You mentioned that the work matters, I would say most. But the salary and so forth benefits are part of that. So how did you do this like comparison? And also, did you do any negotiation knowing that you had, you know, competing offers?

27:43 Sean: Yeah. So this is a good question. I think I did it in tiers. The first tier was, like you talked about just now, the nature of the work. The job that I have now, it wasn’t until realizing that that job was available to me, that I realized how excited I was about that type of work, right. And so, I think there’s something to be said for like, if it’s financially feasible, of course this is a personal finance podcast. If it’s financially feasible, pick the job that you enjoy, because there are going to be some days that you don’t enjoy. And I think those days go down better at a company that you enjoy doing work that you like, as opposed to at a company that you’re not super thrilled about, but you’re getting paid a lot to do it. So that’s, you know, obviously tier one.

28:27 Sean: Tier two, this is a personal finance podcast. I looked at kind of the, just as much as I could, apples to apples of each of them. Again, I talked about, I knew that there were benefits for all of them. I didn’t have insight into the specific coverages and all of that until actually taking the job. So in terms of like evaluating them, I picked the one that was what I consider an optimum. It was the best combination of salary and benefits and I’m passionate about the job. And then in terms of negotiation, I didn’t really negotiate, in part because I knew that the offers that I was getting work were competitive with what I would expect for the types of roles I was getting. So I didn’t ever really push back on, oh, you know, I think I’m worth this much or, you know, this other, I didn’t really do any of that.

The Tactic of Honesty

29:19 Sean: What I did do was be transparent about wanting the job. For example, I did have a favorite and obviously I took that one. But when we were having that conversation, I was transparent with them and I said, this is my top choice. I’d love to do it. Like, how do we make that happen? And it wasn’t until I think like sometimes employee applicants and employers are playing this game of chicken of like, I want to be vulnerable and tell you that I want you, but I don’t want you to say no, right? And so like, there’s this weird tension. And I just, I tried to cut through that and say like, if you guys are not interested in me, cool. You know, like I get that. I’m going to go pursue another opportunity. But if you are, like, I’m really interested in this, let’s make it happen. And I think that ultimately sealed the deal because they also were probably thinking a little bit of like, we like him. We’ve said we like him, but we’re not really sure where he’s going. He said he has a couple of offers. So I know it can be a little nerve-wracking, but like, there’s something to be said for transparency and honesty, if that’s part of the conversation.

30:27 Emily: I think that, it sounds like, you know, that conversation was prior to the formal offer being made, right? Like that could have been what tipped you over into getting an offer versus maybe we’ll go with another candidate, you know, that sort of thing. So like, I think at that stage, you use that tactic really well. Honesty, the tactic of honesty.

30:45 Sean: Right. Yeah. And I think, so another, I guess small detail that’s important here is, I knew the terms of what an offer would be for each of the companies before actually receiving the offer. So that’s, I think part of it too, is like the formal paperwork wasn’t filed, but I knew what it would be talking about. There wasn’t a part where I came in and something, you know, surprised me totally out of the blue. I wasn’t expecting that. So that might be part of it too, is I think that there was a little bit less formal, like I’m applying, I wait for my offer letter, I consider the offer letter and more of a fluid, like, I know what we’re talking about. Everybody’s kind of on the same page in terms of information, and now we just need to make some decisions.

Tell Us More About Your Job

31:28 Emily: Yeah. That’s really good insight. I think for anybody who has not had a job in the private sector, and they’re not really sure, especially, let’s say particular to your space, and of course this is going to vary across other companies, but like, it’s good to just hear someone’s experience and how you navigated that. So tell us a little bit more about the job that you actually took. What is the nature of the work that you’re doing?

31:47 Sean: Yeah. So, I’m going to be working in we’ll call it, I guess, med tech innovation or med tech support. So basically what I’ll be doing is helping support startup companies in the medical device space, getting them prepped and moving through the different stages of development, helping, you know, maybe teach them some core concepts about regulatory and clinical trials and all of these things that they have to do to get their product to market. I’m, I think excited about that aspect in particular, you know but now I’ve really fallen in love with this coaching and teaching space over the last couple of years. So like I’m going to get to do that as part of my job, which is super cool. And then I also get to stay in the science realm without actually, you know, holding a pipette myself, which was, I think ultimately my goal coming out. That’s something I didn’t think to talk about earlier, but that was part of, I knew kind of the nature of the work that I would want coming out of grad school, which was, I want to be involved in science, but I don’t necessarily want to do the science myself. I think I see myself more as a coach, a mentor, a supporter of other individual contributors than I see myself as one.

Role of Side Work in Career Path

33:05 Emily: Given the skill set that you’ll now be using that you developed partially through the coaching and teaching side work that you were doing during graduate school. How much of, you know, how important was it that you pursued those side endeavors in ultimately, you know, formulating and landing this particular job and career path?

33:24 Sean: So, I think it’s a good question. I think the answer is a little nuanced. Over the course of my PhD, I did a couple of different things. I did the traditional research route. Of course, that’s what I got my PhD in. I also did some short-term consulting at a nonprofit in town. And then I did, as you said, coaching and training, more leadership and career coaching style. All of those things were relevant in the job search, in getting the job that I ultimately have. In fact, the fact that I have a PhD in bioengineering, I think qualified me to be even at the table having the conversation. But the things that sold me, that you know, put me over the edge were these other ancillary things that I was doing. And going back to the networking piece, an ancillary skill that you have is conversation, right? I work in now, medtech innovation. There’s a lot of handshaking and smiling and waving and chatting and, you know drinks over dinner. Like there’s all of this kind of stuff in this field. And so having gotten experience in learning how to evaluate startup companies, in learning how to decide whether a team or a founder or somebody is coachable, is willing to do the work and learn. Those are things that I didn’t get through five years of bench work, but are incredibly relevant to my job.

It’s Okay to Just Be You

35:00 Emily: I think what I’m taking away from your explanation there is, during graduate school or during these earlier phases of training, you be you. You just do the things that you want to do, learn the things that you want to learn, explore different opportunities, figure out what you like. And it’s okay. In fact, it may be very helpful if some of those things are not strictly grad student role kinds of things, strictly at the bench, strictly just publishing papers and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, and if you are you during graduate school and you’re pursuing all these other things that you like, it will help you find and craft a job and career that you actually like later on, don’t try to fit yourself into this like I’m just a researcher or I’m just a teacher mold if that’s not you. If it’s you, perfect. Grad school is great for you. If that’s not exactly you, you need to explore these other areas because you don’t want to be stuck into a mold that you don’t fit in for the whole rest of your career.

35:57 Sean: Yeah. I think that’s true. I do want to, you know, obviously present the caveat of like, it’s true, you’re getting a PhD in the stuff that you’re doing at the bench or in the case of, you know, non-wet lab stuff, in the stuff that you’re doing for your degree. So you do have to obviously do that and do it well. I think there’s value in, you know, crafting a really strong body of work. That being said, there are a lot of people that they do their research, and that’s what they do. That I think qualifies you to be at the table to get jobs that people are looking for PhD hires for. And in the case of a more traditional academic route, like kick butt at publications and grant writing, all of that. Hugely important, and those are the things that are relevant to your job.

36:44 Sean: But that’s not necessarily the case for everyone. And in fact, again, personal example, of the offers that I was considering, only one of them was even really closely related at all to the specific work I was doing. So I think I talked about this last time, but, my PhD was in the 3D printing space. I was looking at bone and cartilage printing. That bioengineering experience was more relevant to one offer. For all of the other job opportunities, they were interested in my coaching background. They were interested in my knowledge, not only of science, but of like the startup environment. Those are things that I wouldn’t have learned just in my lab work because the lab work’s not designed for that, right? The lab work is designed for the really detailed, basic science level type work that is used to eventually create some of these opportunities.

Best Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

37:40 Emily: I think that was very, very well put. I ask my guests as you know, a last question, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? I think we just got some fantastic advice, but do you have any others? It could be something we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely different.

37:57 Sean: Yeah. So, I guess two, because I’m not great at following directions. The same thing that we just talked about, which is, I think there’s real value in pursuing and carving out whatever path makes the most sense for your career, whether that’s a traditional academic route, whether that’s something else. Finding and doing and pursuing opportunities that are relevant to that. I think the other thing is, we’ve talked about this before, and you’ve talked about this with several students on the podcast previously. Graduate school doesn’t always, I think, do a great job of reminding students of their worth, of not just financial worth, but also their work worth and just like worth as an individual. But that was huge in my job search was understanding like, no, no, I deserve to be here. You know, I deserve to be having conversations with working professionals that I admire that I think are, you know, extremely brilliant and hardworking. Like, I deserve to be here because I’m those things too. I did a PhD, now that might be because I’m stubborn, but like I did a PhD. I did these other things that qualify me to be here. And I’m not a poser. I’m not taking somebody else’s place by being here. Like this is my space and I get to take it.

39:16 Emily: Wonderful. I think this interview is going to be so useful to graduate students and postdocs who are, you know, looking forward to this post-PhD career transition, especially into the private sector. So thank you so much, Sean, for joining me on giving this interview.

39:29 Sean: Sure, sure. Thanks for having me again.

Outtro

39:37 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This PhD Invests According to Her Personality

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Natalia Bielczyk, a PhD-turned-solopreneur who helps researchers step into fulfilling careers outside of academia. Natalia started investing in a variety of sectors during her PhD training, finding success in some areas and disaster in others. She shares her hard-won lessons into how to invest according to your individual personality and not be influenced by marketers and trends. Natalia emphasizes the importance of building financial stability prior to starting to apply for jobs and presents a unique framework for choosing among post-PhD career and financial priorities.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

How This PhD Invests According to Her Personality

Teaser

00:00 Natalia: As long as I was on the safe side and I was investing in real estate and the stock exchange, so more traditional markets, I was doing very well and I was always beating the market. But once I went to these speculative markets like crypto, like I kind of fell into this trap where, you know, your lizard brain takes over and then your intelligence and your like knowledge about people in the world doesn’t matter anymore. Because you go with your greed and fear and this kind of takes over you. And you start making really stupid decisions.

Introduction

00:39 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 11, and today my guest is Dr. Natalia Bielczyk, a PhD-turned-solopreneur who helps researchers step into fulfilling careers outside of academia. Natalia started investing in a variety of sectors during her PhD training, finding success in some areas and disaster in others. She shares her hard-won lessons into how to invest according to your individual personality and not be influenced by marketers and trends. Natalia emphasizes the importance of building financial stability prior to starting to apply for jobs and presents a unique framework for choosing among post-PhD career and financial priorities. Earlier, on the day I’m recording this, I was interviewed for the Vitamin PhD podcast. That interview will be published in January 2022, approximately. It reminded me how much I love working with other podcasters and creating this kind of content not just on my own feed. I would love to connect with other podcasters in the academic space, particularly ones with U.S. audiences. You most likely listen to such podcasts. Can you recommend any podcasts to me or even introduce me to another host as a potential guest? Please hit me up over email at [email protected] or on Twitter @PFforPhDs. By the way, no need to connect me with Dear Grad Student as we already have an interview swap in the works! But any other recommendations would be excellent. Thank you so much!

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:23 Emily: I’m so excited to share with you today an interview with Dr. Natalia Bielczyk. She is a PhD-turned-solopreneur who helps other PhDs and researchers transition into careers that are a great fit for them. And she has had a lot of really interesting sort of financial experiences, especially regarding mindset, both when she was in academia and now as an entrepreneur. And we’re just going to get a lot out of this conversation today. So I’m really excited to introduce Natalia. Will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

02:53 Natalia: Thank you so much, Emily, for your kind invitation and for the great introduction. Thank you so much. And what can I say? Indeed, I finished a PhD in computational neuroscience, and since a few years I’m helping indeed researchers in finding a new way in their lives and it’s a very exciting career path, I have to say, and very rewarding as well. In the meantime, I wrote a book entitled, “What is out there for me? The landscape of post-PhD career tracks”. I think the title is self-explanatory. And I also recently created an aptitude test called the Odyssey test, or the Ontology of ValueTM, and it’s meant to help professionals, PhDs, but not only, in finding the right working environment for them, for themselves, and also the right role to play, given their personality, values, and natural working style.

03:47 Natalia: And I’m very bullish on this test because it’s working really well. And it’s a result of two two full years of work. And I’m very excited for this premiere that actually happened like a few weeks ago. And other than that, I indeed have a lot of interest in personal finances and I find it a very important aspect. You cannot really tell these areas of life apart. Like when you talk about career, it’s hard not to talk about finances because it conditions your decisions. And that’s also what I would like to talk about today a little bit, because it’s hard to also give good career advice to someone who is desperate to get a job because they have an empty account. And I always talk about it in the courses and also in the talks I’m doing for PhDs, because this is a very important aspect of career building. So I’m very excited that I can be here today and talk a little bit about that.

Financial Experiences Overview

04:43 Emily: Yes, we’re so excited to dive more into that. Before we get into these more sort of specific thoughts that you wanted to share, can you give us a bit of a background or an overview of what your financial experiences have been, both while you were pursuing the PhD and since, so that we know some topical areas that will come up later on?

05:01 Natalia: Yes, actually indeed I come from a family where finances were not topics that were often discussed. I think both my parents are more idealistic and they believe in creating value by virtue of like using your own hands and actually working hard rather than saving and investing money which is a pity, I think. But indeed when I came to the university as an undergrad, I fully focused on my studies initially. And then, only then, in my mid-twenties, I realized that, you know, it’s better like in the long run to think about your savings and to invest them. And I actually have to say that I had some beginner’s luck because when I first got to investing in the stock exchange, I think I made a few really good bets.

05:57 Natalia: And my strategy initially was to look into, by the way, I’m not a financial advisor, just a little disclaimer. So my initial bet was just looking into companies that have good value that have like rather luxurious products. And I personally believe that these products are good. I use them, myself. Like good clothing brands, and video games. Everything that I could trust myself as a client. And I had quite good shots there. And then, so I initially thought, well, I have to be good at this because every single time I’m out beating the market. So for a few years in a row, like I was making 60, 80, a hundred percent per year. And I was like, oh, I’m a genius, apparently. But then, you know, I also realized that, really, it’s not that I am overly like a talented investor.

Real Estate Investment

06:53 Natalia: It’s more that I kind of personally fit that type of investment. I found these few companies that I was absolutely sure about at the right moment. And I had a little bit of luck. And in fact in the long run, investing is so much more than that. But in my grad school, I also have to say that I was one of the few people in my environment that spotted the opportunity when the housing market was recovering in 2014, 2015. And back then, it was still not very popular, especially among PhD students, to buy their own properties. But I have to say that I was one of the first who must have noticed the opportunity, because the mortgage capability was going up, the interest rates were going down at this point. So I saw the window of opportunity to get my own property when I was still a second-year PhD student.

07:45 Natalia: So that was a great opportunity. And back then, I was thinking of myself as a future professor in neuroscience, and I wanted to live here next to the university. So I had a very clear picture of where I want to live and where I want to buy property. And I have to say that I hacked the system because this area was not the cheapest, but I figured out how to avoid bidding against other other candidates for houses. So I basically determined where I want to buy property, and then I distributed leaflets with information that I am this nice person who studies neuroscience and I want to do great research in this house and I really need some calm place to live where I can do my awesome research on human brain. And I have to say that I spent a month distributing these leaflets in mailboxes around the quarter, and about 10 people contacted me and they were willing to sell me the house, like, you know like by a handshake.

08:48 Natalia: So without bidding, without competition, I could buy quite a few good houses this way. So I was also the only person who kind of figured out that it’s possible this way, and that allowed me to buy a house way below the market value and avoid the bidding, avoid the competition. And that was also, yeah, I’m still proud of it because yeah, at that time, I could not afford to do it in like a usual way by competing with other bidders. So this was my only chance and it worked and I have this house until this day, it’s great. And I also have some passive income from it. I have some rental room. So that also helped me, like in more difficult times after my contract expired, it was a source of passive income.

The Dangers of Speculative Markets

09:37 Natalia: So I have to say that this was one of the best decisions I ever made. And then after my contract expired, I also had some bad decisions because I went into much more speculative markets. So as long as I was on the safe side and I was investing in real estate and the stock exchange, so more traditional markets, I was doing very well, and I was always beating the market. But once I went to these speculative markets like crypto, like I kind of fell into this trap where, you know, your lizard brain takes over. And then your intelligence and your like knowledge about people in the world doesn’t matter anymore because you kind of go with your greed and fear. And this kind of takes over you, and you start making really stupid decisions.

10:29 Natalia: And also, I have to say that I was quite naive after my PhD, because I was not used to the environment where people can tell you, like they have vile intentions. Like they will tell you things that they never intend to do, because honestly, researchers, you know, some of them might have difficult personalities, but at the end of the day, they have good intentions. And I was always surrounded by honest people who have pure intentions. And if they commit to something, they will do it. And when I found myself in speculative markets, I lost all my money also because I was trusting the wrong people. I was just very naive. So, it was a really painful lesson for me.

11:15 Natalia: And I have to say that now I know that there is no such thing as a good investor or bad investor. There are so many different ways of investing and you have to figure out who you are, what your strengths are and what types of investments will work best for you. And now when I invest again, I always look into value. And I think in the future I will become more of a value investor. So, it’s definitely, I’m not into trading. I’m very bad at this. I’m too impulsive. And now I know what my weaknesses are. And in the long run, I’ll just orient myself towards the markets and opportunities where I know that I have some grasp on what’s actually going on. So like, I had a lot of painful lessons to take. But also, one thing I learned is that indeed there is no winning strategy. There is no algorithm. Because at the end of the day, everyone’s different. And what works for me might not work for you. So it’s like you have to learn through trial and error, what type of strategy works best for you.

It’s Okay to Make Mistakes

12:23 Emily: So what I took from that story, which was fascinating, is that you were operating in these early years very much off of intuition. And it worked well for you in some areas, and it didn’t work as well for you in other areas. And now that you’ve learned that about yourself, you are sort of shoring yourself up with more research and like systems to make sure that your weaknesses are not going to come through in your investment strategy, the way that it did before. And I think this is really interesting because I actually talk with a lot of people in my audience, and I’m not saying that’s the majority, but people who choose to speak with me, sort of have the opposite. Like they’re so cautious and they don’t want to take any steps because they don’t want to make any mistakes.

13:06 Emily: And so what I love about that overview that you just gave us, and we’ll go a little bit more into the subject shortly is like, it’s okay to make a mistake. Yes, it’s painful. Of course, it’s painful to make a mistake. Of course, you should try to avoid it. But the downside of making a mistake is not so huge that you should miss out on the upside of actually pursuing your investments or pursuing these strategies. So, yeah, we’re going to talk more about that in a moment. I’m so excited about that.

13:29 Natalia: Well, I think at the end of the day, you most regret things you didn’t do, rather than the things that you did.

Negative Views of Money

13:36 Emily: Yeah. I agree. So when we prepared for this conversation, we talked a little bit about how money is viewed in academia, specifically not favorably. And so I wanted to know based on sort of your observations, your personal experience, and I can share mine as well, how that voice in academia saying that, you know, money’s bad, don’t pursue money, blah, blah, blah, how that actually materially affects the personal finances of people who survive academia.

14:07 Natalia: A very good question. I think it’s not only a disease of academia, but of the whole public sector, I believe. And yes, that’s actually another painful observation I had to make in grad school because I was one of the few like misfits who were interested in the economy and personal investments, while most of my friends from grad school were spending evenings on just having, you know, beers like downtown. And they didn’t really understand my interest in reading about the economy and the financial markets. So, yeah, I heard about myself that I was greedy, that I was so materialistic, that I was an aggressive capitalist. Like I heard those things, but I also know what my aims are in the long run and I just didn’t, I’m happy now that I chose to develop myself in this direction. And I would definitely recommend it to anyone, regardless of what you do.

15:09 Natalia: Like money is not a bad thing. Money is a good thing. It gives you opportunities. And indeed the picture of money in academia is quite negative. And I feel this is what they also do to program you to be poor, you know? And when you like read like popular press and go online, like what they always sell you is these negative pictures of successful people and like big entrepreneurs. And it’s like, there is a lot of bad press around success on financial markets, and don’t buy into it. Because at the end of the day, like money will not change you as a person. It will just give you more chances to do what you would do otherwise. So, I’m always trying to fight with this black picture of money in academia. And when I do courses with PhD graduates who are now looking for careers, I always underscore how important it is to have a financial cushion and to take care of your finances, and that it’s actually a good thing. You’re only going to have more chances to do good if you have your finances sorted out.

Negative Impact of Separating Finances from Career

16:18 Emily: Okay. So let’s continue on from this thought about, okay, academia has this low view of money. Let’s say that does impact most people’s finances negatively while they’re in academia. They’re not earning very much. Maybe they’re not, you know, enticed to invest as you were and so forth. How does that then translate into the career space? How does that affect their career search and their job selection, and so forth?

16:39 Natalia: Yes, obviously it does affect your job search because as mentioned before, the separation doesn’t really serve you well. And you don’t have a clear view of the opportunities, once you have this bias that you actually have to find something and you have just less freedom to choose and to wait for the right opportunity. So definitely it does affect, like the lack of money does affect your career in a negative way, of course. So indeed, there’s a correlation there, or even causation between a lack of funds and some problems with developing careers. So at the end of the day, you know, I always tell it to the course participants, you know, you have to, at least manage your expenditures and control them and just control your finances.

17:35 Natalia: Even if you don’t feel like you’re the best investor, at least you can watch your expenditures and make sure that you pay yourself first. That’s at the very minimum. It’s good to put aside like 10% of your income. And don’t tell me that you can do it, because everyone who, at least here in the Netherlands, everyone with a postdoc contract is able to do it. I mean, if someone says, they’re not, they’re not saying the truth to themselves, because there is such a disproportion in salaries between PhD students and postdocs that if you spent everything as a postdoc, that means you inflated your lifestyle way too much. So that means you should take a look at your expenditures. So, if you do it right, then you should always be able to pay yourself and set aside some amount. So you don’t have to be a genius. You don’t have to be another Warren Buffet to be financially safe. You just have to be reasonable with your finances.

Commercial

18:33 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD Workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Our next live discussion and Q&A call is on Wednesday, October 20th, 2021. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success! Now back to the interview.

Make Your Own Decisions

19:41 Emily: So you mentioned earlier a few, you know, negative experiences you’ve had in this investing sphere and about having your crypto stolen and meeting up with bad actors and so forth. Are there any kind of like takeaway messages maybe that you have for the listener, like about how to not fall into these situations that you have?

20:04 Natalia: Right. Well, first of all, you have to make your own decisions. First of all, get informed about possibilities, and try not to follow the crowd. Because at the end of the day, once something’s already, like there is a hype on the media, usually it’s too late already. So usually it’s already a bubble. And if you join at that point, it’s better to just like try to figure out early that something is promising. Some project is promising and it’s just about to take off, and observe closely to see if that crowd sentiment will follow and just jump in just before the crowd, not when it’s already making headlines, because that’s already, usually, too late. And also don’t follow the advice too much. I would say like my best decisions were always my own independent decisions, and all these companies that I found in the stock exchange, like nobody told me to buy into those companies.

21:02 Natalia: I just made my own decisions. I came to my own conclusions, and, they turned out to be good decisions. And so, at the end of the day, it’s all about your knowledge and your gut. And now I can see that, especially since the Corona crisis started, there are so many of these false like financial advisors on YouTube. And they became really popular and they started all these systems to become rich quick, or they legitimately actually became rich because they have some successful company, but then they will tell you, you know, this is how I did it. This is what you should be doing to, you know, to follow my success and become successful. But you have to craft your own way that fits you best, and there is no algorithm.

Assume That Your Mission Matters

21:55 Natalia: So if it works for them, it doesn’t mean it will work for you. And I have to say my own way to get like closer to wealth is very different from any of what these financial advisors are telling you. So like none of the rules that, you know, I tried many pieces of advice that they suggest and the sales techniques, et cetera. And none of them really worked. Like for me, for instance, what worked best was just assuming that like that your mission matters. And when I was buying a house, basically I was just telling people openly what I’m going to do in this house and how I’m going to take care of it. And in the end, I got a very good deal because someone liked my purpose and me as a person.

22:43 Natalia: And this is something that no one will tell you in this, you know, in the space of financial advisory. And now I’m kind of doing the same. So I also work on my personal mission. I have a vision of, if my company becomes really successful, what I want to do with with the money I earn, I would like to build the most beautiful house of all time, somewhere in the woods and host startups and people who want to build their careers there, and have a place where we can find value and develop value in people and projects. And the more I talk about this, the more I also sell my products, because people like the mission. So, and this is something no one will tell you on the internet, you know, that they will tell you, well, you should build a CRM model and you have this like bulletproof system to acquire clients. Nobody will tell you that you actually have to have meaningful purpose, right? So every single time, like, just think for yourself, like, what do you really want? What’re you good at? And also, start with why, right? Why are you doing this for? Like, why do you want to get wealthy? And just have a good purpose. I think that really helps.

23:57 Emily: So much that I wanted to emphasize in what you just said. To play off the last point, I’ve also found in growing my business, I haven’t taken like the mission driven approach that you have, but what I found has been most valuable for me is relationships. Like literally just developing relationships with other human beings. And the podcast is one way that I do that. And that’s been the biggest driver of revenue for me, for sure. And like, again, that’s not something some internet marketer is going to tell you, because it’s an investment, it’s time consuming to develop relationships. But in any case, for my business model, which is not the same as anybody else’s, it pays off, right? So O just want to emphasize, yeah, like you don’t have to follow all the techniques that everybody is trying to teach you in your own finances, in your business, whatever it is that you’re doing.

Understand How They Make Money

24:42 Emily: The other thing that I wanted to add about like how to sort of avoid making mistakes, and like you were saying, like, sort of forging your own path. Once the media is, you know, proclaiming something, it’s already over, the trend’s done. You have to get in early if you’re going to get in, kind of at all. Just to emphasize in there, it’s really important when you’re listening to people, from anywhere, to understand how they make money. Whether it’s directly selling you a product and they’re getting commission off that, that’s at least straightforward. That’s easy to understand their motivation for, you know, pitching you the product. It’s maybe a little bit harder when people are driven by, you know, advertising revenue perhaps, like on YouTube or something. Or it’s also hard if they’re just, they’re not directly making money, but you going into the thing that they’re hyping feeds the bubble and allows their investments to grow.

25:29 Emily: Just ask yourself that question, like, how is this person making money, and does that influence, it doesn’t necessarily, does it influence the message that they have for me? I welcome all of my listeners to ask that about me and about my business and, you know, listening to this podcast. How is it that I make money? And should you be listening to me? And so forth. And I think that my business would stand up to that scrutiny, but it’s up to the individual to do that everywhere that they listen to money, advice, or business advice, or what have you.

25:56 Natalia: Yeah, totally. I absolutely agree. And I can also say that I get entertained by some of these financial channels as well. And, I mean, I would rather choose this over some entertainment shows. And so when I have free time, I would rather listen to good financial advice, but I always choose people who don’t sell you anything, at least, you know, they just say what they know. And yes, they get some revenue from the sense that YouTube pays them. But at least they are not selling you any system. So at least to some extent they are objective. But I agree with you, you always have to look at their business model. And that will tell you a lot about how credible they are.

Time Management in Managing Finances

26:44 Emily: So you mentioned earlier that when you were in graduate school, your friends might be out at the bar having a drink together, and you were at home, you know, learning about more about your investments or something. What have you learned about appropriate time management when it comes to your finances? Have you swung too far to one side of the spectrum or the other? What do you think is like the happy medium in terms of how much attention and time to pay to your finances?

27:07 Natalia: Very good question. I think that also very much depends on the type of investments you do. But I think also, there were periods of time when I was spending way too much time, especially after my PhD contract expired. And I had all the time in the world to do the projects I liked. And at some point I went down the rabbit hole, and for a few months, I was spending time mostly on reading about these speculative markets. And I felt that, the more time I was spending on that, the more I was losing the overall picture. And now I don’t spend as much time. I attend some online groups to discuss the progress in the field, and I try to be there every week, and I read once in a while. But I’m trying to keep this time limited, and I can feel that I’m much better at spotting the valuable projects and valuable concepts that have a future if I look more from the distance.

28:04 Natalia: Because like the closer you get, the more, you know, you’re also influenced by people you’re talking to. For instance, like everyone who is developing a new product, they do it for a reason. That’s why they do it, because they believe that none of the mainstream projects are the future. So like when you talk to them, they will obviously criticize the like mainstream projects, just because otherwise they wouldn’t be doing what they’re doing. So, they are kind of biased, even if they have the best intentions. Then you have to take into account, the more you interact with people in the space, the more biased you get.

Be Like Master Yoda: Everywhere

28:42 Natalia: So now I really am trying to keep a healthy distance, and I’m trying to be like this like Master Yoda that talks to everybody and has some wisdom, has some knowledge, is everywhere, you know–talks to employers, talks to recruiters, talks to professionals who are looking for careers, talks to business developers who are building their own businesses, talks to people who are in financial markets. But I don’t get, like, I always keep some level of distance to everything. And I try to keep my emotions low, be objective, look from perspective, and I’m doing much, much better this way. So I would say like too much time can work against you, as well. At least that’s my experience.

29:25 Emily: Yeah. And I would say to drill that point down even further on like specifically financial management, I would say like, so when I was in graduate school, it’s fair to say I was pretty obsessed with my finances. But not in a way that was super helpful and actually improving like my net worth in a big way. So like, for example, I did not get into entrepreneurship when I was in graduate school. That was after I finished graduate school. And actually earning more money at that time when I was earning very little for a graduate student stipend would have been a bigger ROI than just focusing on frugality, which is a lot of what I thought about. Now, I did good things like, you know, my frugality fueled investments. So that was good and that did increase my net worth. But now that I’m an entrepreneur and maybe you’ve had a similar sort of transition, I think a lot more about how to earn more money, and that’s worth more to my bottom line than spending a lot of time being really frugal.

Do You Have to Go Through a Proving Period?

30:19 Emily: But you know what, I think there’s also some value in, and maybe you agree or not, going through a period of being a little bit obsessed and really learning a lot, learning a lot about yourself, in whatever space you’re in. And then after that point, when you’ve invested a lot of time, you can pull back, like you were just saying and see the bigger picture, like more easily. What do you think about that? Do you have to go through like a proving period of, you know, really, really diving into a subject?

30:44 Natalia: That’s a very good question. I don’t have one clear answer to that. I think again, like just that careers cannot be like treated separately from finances. I think that your finances cannot be treated separately from your personality and who you are. So you have to learn it somehow, like what fits you best. And indeed, you need some knowledge to make educated choices and allocate your assets, which are your future, basically in the right, like baskets. There is some effort, like there is no freelance, so indeed perhaps, yeah, spending time on it and effort is of course necessary. I’m not sure if this is absolutely necessary to spend a period of your life on it, like full-time or maybe it’s sufficient to, let’s say, allocate one evening per week and do it systematically. Maybe that’s healthier. So I don’t have a clear answer to that, but for sure, this is like a compound interest. Like you have to have some space in your life for this, and it’s lik compound interest. If you allocate time for it on a regular basis, you will become a pro in a period of time. So for sure.

How to Contact Natalia

32:01 Emily: Love that answer. Okay. So we’re going to get to your best financial advice in just a moment. But before we do that, I just want you to remind the listener where they can find you, where they can find all the stuff that you’re doing in the career space.

32:12 Natalia: Right. So yes, I think the best way to contact me at the moment is my LinkedIn profile. So you can find me on LinkedIn, I’m open to new contacts. So please contact me and let’s talk. And you can also find me on Twitter. And of course I can recommend my book that also contains one chapter about finances. So I hope you can find some link to the book somewhere here as well. And yeah, I think this is at the moment, the best way to find me. And there is also a YouTube channel. There is my company website with everything I think will be linked below. So, please find me. I’m always, I’m not a financial advisor, but I like talking finances. I think it’s an important area of life. So I’m always happy to talk.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

33:01 Emily: Yes. We can find all those links in the show notes for the show or in my mailing list, email, which you should get the day this is released, if you’re on my mailing list. Okay. So last question, Natalia, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

33:17 Natalia: Well, so I would say two pieces of advice. I couldn’t choose, so I will just list two. So first of all, what is also related to the topic of my book. In my book, I talk a lot about like a very important choice you have to make once you get from academia out to the big world. And this is a choice between safety and freedom. So, if you go to public institutions or large corporations, you have to compromise a lot on your freedom. You will have to follow the procedures, follow the local rules, follow your boss, follow expectations. But you will gain a lot of stability. You will get good working benefits and an opportunity to stay for a long time in one place. So, you’ll sleep well at night, but you will have some limited freedom. Versus if you go the opposite way and you start your own business, or you continue in academia, or you go like work in a startup in some speculative markets, then you will experience much more stress because your future will be much more uncertain.

34:25 Natalia: But you will also gain a lot of freedom. So it’s always a compromise. You either go for one or the other. The only exception, the only group of people who can afford to be free and to be safe at the same time are those who are wealthy. So money is a measure of safety, and it’s a measure of freedom. And this is your only chance. So in fact, most people who get wealthy, they don’t do it because they want to have a lambourghini in their garage. They just want to be free, and they want to be safe. And that’s how you should treat it. And if you treat the money like this, I think it’s a really good mindset to start with.

35:06 Emily: I just, I hope you don’t mind. I want to add onto that point because I love the way you articulated that. It’s not something I’ve thought about before. So I’m so glad that you brought that up. For my own life, personally, obviously I’m an entrepreneur. Longtime listeners may know that my husband, who’s also a PhD, works at a startup. And so we both, pretty much immediately after we finished our PhDs, went down this freedom, less safety route, although certainly his is more safe than mine because he has an actual job. So we went down this like freedom over safety route that you were just articulating. However, we radically reduced risk of undertaking those job choices because of the financial wherewithal that we had built up during graduate school, because we had savings, because we had investments, because we paid off almost all of our debt. That risk was much, much less to us, as you were just saying. So we were able to shift that, you know, get more freedom, feel like we were providing our own safety, even in these like unsafe careers, basically. So love the way you articulated that. So brilliant. Thank you. What was your next piece of advice?

Think About Your Mission

36:05 Natalia: My last piece of advice would be referring to what I said before. Think about your mission. And this is like, again a bit counter-intuitive, but there are at least two good reasons to think about your mission. First of all, if you have a goal that you can think of every time you negotiate, you become a better negotiator, because you see a purpose. You see like a big picture of why you want to negotiate a better salary, better honorarium for your work. That also helped me because that was initially my problem as an entrepreneur, that I couldn’t really value my work properly. And I was doing a lot of work for free. And I was just afraid to ask for money for my career services at first. And I was always feeling guilty.

36:49 Natalia: But once I started thinking, okay, this is my big picture. This is what I want to get. I need to start valuing my work, because otherwise I’ll never get there. So, that helped me. That gave me courage. And now I’m standing my ground much better when it comes to negotiation. So that helped a lot. And the second reason is because people will make it easier for you. People like helping individuals who have vision. And people are good. If they see that you have a good purpose, they will make it easy for you. You can even get donations. You should have big dreams, and should articulate them. Because most people, they keep their dreams to themselves. They believe that nobody cares or that, you know, people will only make it harder for you. They will either laugh, or they will put locks on your feet. But it’s not true. It’s the opposite. If you have a good cause, just articulate it. Say it loud, and you will see that wealth will come to you much faster.

37:55 Emily: I love that. I need to take that one to heart. Natalia, this was a wonderful interview. Thank you so much for giving it. I hope that the interested listeners will reach out and connect with you. And just thank you so much again.

38:05 Natalia: Thank you! Thank you so much for your invitation. It was great.

Postscript

38:09 Emily: Emily here, with a quick postscript. When we conducted our interview, Natalia was in the middle of a rebranding. Her business is now officially named the Ontology of Value and can be found at ontologyofvalue.com. In the interview, Natalia described the Odyssey test, or the Ontology of ValueTM test. If you would like to take this test to learn how you most naturally create value in the world, and which professional and employment sectors fit your value proposition, please register through my affiliate link, PFforPhDs.com/ontology. That’s P F F O R P H D S.com/O N T O L O G Y.

Outtro

38:56 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

The Process Behind Landing a Dream Job with a Jaw-Dropping Salary

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In this episode, Emily interviews My-Linh Luong, a PhD candidate in physiotherapy at the University of Melbourne in Australia. My-Linh is at the all but dissertation stage of her PhD and recently accepted a dream job with a dream salary. She tells the story of how she prepared for and executed her job search, which involved an amazing degree of intentionality during her years in grad school, including plumbing her values, working on her mindset, and utilizing professional development resources. My-Linh’s job search took about a year and a half, and she shares how she stayed motivated and hopeful throughout the long process. She even shares some specific scripts regarding salary negotiation. Prepare to take notes or at least be ready to hit rewind to catch all of the gold nuggets My-Linh gives in this interview.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

process behind landing dream job with jaw-dropping salary

Teaser

00:00 My-Linh: I want everyone to find a job where they’re paid well and using the skillsets and talents that they have. And so I just want to hold vision for everyone who’s listening. You know, like I’m not sharing the story to say, this is the magic bullet to do things. I’m sharing this story so that you can also see and plant the seed that it’s possible for you, too.

Introduction

00:27 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 10, and today my guest is My-Linh Luong, a PhD candidate in physiotherapy at the University of Melbourne in Australia. My-Linh is at the all but dissertation stage of her PhD and recently accepted a dream job with a dream salary. She tells the story of how she prepared for and executed her job search, which involved an amazing degree of intentionality during her years in grad school, including plumbing her values, working on her mindset, and utilizing professional development resources. My-Linh’s job search took about a year and a half, and she shares how she stayed motivated and hopeful throughout the long process. She even shares some specific scripts regarding salary negotiation. Prepare to take notes or at least be ready to hit rewind to catch all of the gold nuggets My-Linh gives in this interview.

01:29 Emily: My pre-recorded workshop that helps funded graduate students prepare their 2021 tax returns will be ready by early January 2022. The title is How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!). While I have sold this workshop to individuals for several years and will continue to do so, this year I’m making a big push to license it to university hosts as well. On my end, I can grant access to the pre-recorded workshop materials very quickly—like, within minutes of a host telling me they want it. But you know what can take a while? Budgetary approval. That’s why I’m bringing up the workshop at this time of year. If you have used this workshop in the past or wanted to, will you please ask your graduate school, department, graduate student association, etc. if they will buy it on behalf of yourself and your interested peers? I give a discount for bulk purchases and additionally will provide a private live Q&A call just for your group if a minimum order size is reached. I’ve noticed that these personal requests and testimonials go very far in bringing these purchases to fruition so I really appreciate you making this ask. Please send the decision-maker the PDF at PFforPhDs.com/taxflyer/ to introduce the workshop and ask them to contact me via email. Do it now so they have time to sort out the funding before the workshop goes live in January! Thank you! Without further ado, here’s my interview with My-Linh Luong.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:05 Emily: I am over the moon to introduce My-Linh Luong to you all. I’m so happy to have her on as a guest. She has an amazing story to tell you of her career progression, kind of throughout graduate school and post graduate school. But I want to get back up and tell you how we met. So My-Linh was part of my pilot program of The Wealthy PhD back in fall 2019. The Wealthy PhD is my group coaching program. My-Linh I’m so happy to have you here. Will you please introduce yourself a bit further for the audience?

03:35 My-Linh: Thanks Emily, I’m super excited to be here as well. So for the audience, I’m a behavioral scientist and public health researcher, and I completed my master’s in public health at UNC, and then I’m finishing up my PhD in health behavior change at the University of Melbourne. And I currently work as a medical and behavioral strategist in the healthcare industry. And more specifically in terms of what I do in the day-to-day is I use my training in behavioral science to improve the implementation of clinical trials.

Career Goals at the Start of Grad School

04:07 Emily: So let’s take it back to the start of graduate school. Maybe that’s the start of your master’s program. Maybe we’re even going back to undergrad. You know, what were those career goals that you set out with when you started your graduate journey?

04:19 My-Linh: Yeah, so I think when I look in retrospect and sort of reconnect with my values of why I started graduate school, it makes perfect sense how I landed here. So I was really interested sort of from my advocacy health research standpoint to improve the health and wellbeing of people in communities. So that’s why I went to a public health program. And I think somewhere along the way, you know, in the decade that I’ve been in graduate school, some of that messaging that lost in terms of what I was hearing about, you know, what people do with their PhDs. And, you know, there were moments where I was like, oh, you know, do I want to stay in the academic research track? You know, my friends are in that track. I see basically no conversation from my professors about what happens afterwards.

05:06 My-Linh: But I think it was helpful I have a sister and a parent who has a PhD who aren’t in academic spaces. So that definitely planted the seed for me to say, I don’t need to be in the academic space to be successful with how I use my PhD. And so now that I’m thinking back, it’s that reconnection, you know, with what I wanted to do in improving health and wellbeing and being able to increase in scale and impact and the work that I do. And the more I thought about being in academia first, honestly, I was like, I don’t think I’m cut out for this. And then secondly, I just wasn’t that interested in what that day-to-day looked like. Grant writing, teaching just became not as appealing to me. And as I figured out what is it that I like about what I’m doing? Because there are definitely aspects of academia I liked, right? The flexibility, sort of the autonomy, being able to be remote if I needed to be, that helped me get a lot more clear as I was getting sort of to the end of my PhD about what it is that I valued in what my life looked like post-PhD. So yeah, I think I was pretty early on in the mindset of, you know, I don’t think the academic track is the right track for me. So I was always open and curious about what opportunities were beyond that.

Professional Development and Career Exploration

06:36 Emily: I know that when you were in graduate school, you were taking advantage of a lot of the like professional development type career exploration type opportunities that your university made available to you. And you’re probably going outside of those as well. So what were you doing during that time to get this process going of what do I want to do with my next career phase, and how do I present myself so that I am competitive for those kinds of jobs?

06:57 My-Linh: So one of the things I found really valuable is, as I knew I wasn’t probably going to stay in academia, trying to find ways to apply research in settings outside of that. So doing short-term internships or consultancies. You know, when I was stateside, I worked with the Orange County department on aging to develop their master aging plan. When I was in the states, I worked for the productivity commission on sort of this systematic review to develop an evidence-base around the public health approach to child welfare. So having these opportunities outside of academia allowed me to see, I can apply research in spaces that are not specifically academic, whether that’s public service, whether that’s in the government. And I hadn’t had as much experience in industry. So, I wasn’t sure about what that connection was going to look like in terms of sharing my skills and expertise there.

Short-term Paid Internships and Consultancies During the PhD

07:52 Emily: So I’m curious with these like internships and other project-based experience. Was that something that you had to take like official timeout from your program to do? Is it something you did alongside continuing with your research and whatever duties you had in academia? And also were those paid opportunities or were they volunteer?

08:10 My-Linh: So they were both paid opportunities and I did them while I was in the PhD. I think being able to have flexibility with the program I mean, full disclosure, I didn’t share that much with my PhD advisors that I was doing this extra work. But I knew what was best for me. And this was what was best for me in terms of getting the experience I wanted and keeping me passionate about the work.

08:36 Emily: Yeah, I think that’s really helpful because oftentimes current graduate students do struggle with is taking this opportunity, which could be great for my career, is that going to detract from my progress towards my degree? And also the question of, will my advisor allow it? Sounds like you took the position of, you know, better to ask for forgiveness than permission and it ended up working out. So that’s great. Not everyone might have that approach, but I just like hearing from people who are facing those decisions, like, what did you do about it.

08:59 My-Linh: Yeah, I think you have to know what’s best for you, so you do whatever you need to do to get the experiences that you want that are fulfilling. And I will say also in full disclosure, I love professional development. Emily knows this, anybody who knows me well knows that I love this. So I’m speaking from the perspective of, I enjoy going to workshops and learning more and there is so much free career information out there. And one of the things I think, in retrospect, thinking about what’s helpful is not trying to feel like you have to do everything at once. Like there are stages to doing a job search that aren’t just like, okay, all of a sudden I have to like apply, interview, and get the job. There’s a much longer phase to that of sort of career exploration and understanding, and there are different workshops that universities might offer around that.

Evaluate Your Own Interests, Skills, and Values

09:57 My-Linh: I think there’s a lot around people talking about, oh, what are these transferable skills that you have? And I think about it less as like, oh, this is the transferable skill that makes me marketable in the marketplace. But more of doing that deep inner work. I did a lot more sort of on my own. And there’s plenty in that space around evaluating sort of your interests and your skills and your values in alignment. So one free resource that I really liked using was ImaginePhD, which has lots of assessments around that very specific around the type of things that PhD folks are doing. So that really helped me to better articulate to myself and then to other people what I wanted, but I definitely spent a lot of time sort of lurking.

10:44 My-Linh: You know, going to lots of career panels, hearing about that career journey. And just knowing that like, you know, even what I share today, it’s not like a magic bullet of things. Like you sort of take what works for you and leave what doesn’t work for you. And that’s something I just want folks who are listening to just remember that there’s a lot of information out there. If you disagree with it, that’s okay. You know, but part of, I think when I was going to all these workshops, because I was hearing a lot of the same things over and over. And at that point I knew I had reached saturation. And I think as a PhD student, I love doing the research. I want to know everything. I was very comprehensive in that. So in retrospect, I probably could have done a lot fewer workshops, but that worked for me. I don’t know. I don’t think everyone needs to like have all the professional development to be successful in their job search. I think there are really some very key strategies to how to approach the job search, and being thoughtful about that in phases is really important.

Give Yourself Time in this Process

11:48 Emily: I think just that like insight alone, one gold nugget already takeaway from this interview is like, you need to give yourself time in this process, and it’s not something you can take on, like in the few months before you have your defense, you’re submitting your dissertation and so forth, like when you’re actually looking for a job. This is something that, you have to let this breathe a little bit, give it more time. And if like you, you like professional development, you should be attending these kinds of things throughout your entire PhD, it sounds like, just to sort of, as you were saying, gain all the information and be able to give yourself time to sort through it, figure out what’s going to work for you, what’s not. What connects with you, what doesn’t. So that you have all of that background knowledge and the skills for when you actually jump into the, okay, I’ve decided on the career and I’m actually going after a job now or a set of jobs. Does that make sense?

12:37 My-Linh: Yeah. And I would emphasize that there are definitely people who are able to get jobs really quickly at the end of that. And so, you know, not saying that everyone has to spend all this time into professional development, but that when you are a graduate student and you do have that flexibility to spend time thinking about it, to take advantage of those opportunities, even if they don’t immediately apply. And that’s something that I definitely found is that, you know, going into this thing on interviewing, wasn’t helpful to me at the stage when that was in exploration, but it was still helpful to just sort of hear like what’s going to come down the path. So, I just recommend like, obviously there are people who are on an accelerated job search, but that feels panicked to me. So to be just prepared for that to be, you know, like sitting in and just hearing this and being familiar with what that job search looks like to be better prepared. Because I imagine that people don’t want to get to the end of their PhD and not know what’s next. So that’s part of just being prepared in graduate school is taking advantage of those opportunities when you have the time and space to think about them.

13:42 Emily: And I think another kind of factor in this, which we’ll talk about how this worked for you and your individual story in a moment. But another factor is what is your degree of flexibility at the end of the PhD if you don’t have a job at the second you think you want one? So like my own story, for example, is my PhD advisor decided to leave my university. And so he basically graduated like half of his graduate students, including me all at one time. Whereas I might’ve wanted to take maybe like another six months before defending and I did not have, like, I could not stay on as a postdoc. My PI was leaving. So there was no like sort of fallback opportunity or like flexibility around that timeline. And that was never something that I anticipated getting towards the end of graduate school that I would suddenly be like without a job, without a paycheck, without any control over that timeline.

14:32 Emily: So that was what happened to me. I’ll give another example of like my husband. He found a job very easily at a time that worked well for him because his advisor was very flexible with him about how long to keep him on. So he defended, then stayed on as a postdoc for about a year. That was totally open-ended. And so got a job at a time that it just was fine because there was that flexibility there. So you really need to think about your own funding situation, your relationship with your advisor, and what your opportunities are to know how well-timed this job search needs to be.

My-Linh’s Story: 2019-2020

15:06 Emily: So let’s talk about your story with this. And let’s go back to like that fall 2019 time when you and I met. Where were you in your graduate program at the time? And then take us through the next almost two years now.

15:18 My-Linh: Yeah. So the time that we met, I had already sort of gone through my confirmations. In U.S. terms, that’s basically ABD. And I was sort of, again, I had mentioned earlier that I knew that I wasn’t going to stay in academia. And wanting to be prepared, I just sort of started kind of putting out feelers there around job searching. And then I moved back stateside around December, I guess, is when I moved back stateside and was sort of trying to figure out I didn’t know where I was going to be geographically. There was just a lot of uncertainty in my life that felt out of my control. And I wasn’t finished with the PhD yet as well, right? So it was, I think what you were saying earlier about what does the end of the PhD look like, or when is the best time to start the job search?

16:17 My-Linh: I would say it’s never too early to start the job search. And it’s never too late to start either. And it’s never tidy. And so I didn’t know exactly when I was going to finish. I ended up actually taking a personal leave of absence, a medical leave of absence. So that kind of changed my timeline, that changed the structure of how I was doing my job search. And so there were a lot of like different conditions in my situation that kind of put a lot of things up in the air. So I understand, I know lots of listeners here understand, like there’s just a lot of uncertainty and a lot of precariousness in being a graduate student and lots of change. So I resonate a lot with that because it was a really chaotic period of time.

17:04 Emily: And let’s not forget that this period of time, March, 2020 is when the entire world was feeling some of the same, like precarity and uncertainty that you were already going through in your personal life. So all of that stuff that you were just saying was, okay, you’re not done with the PhD yet. So you’re still working on the dissertation, you’re getting close to the end. But you also decided to take a leave of absence. So there’s no real, like, I think there weren’t like deadlines for you to particularly meet like milestones on. And so you could take a little bit more flexibility. But you also, I think didn’t have an income or maybe your income was, you know, dramatically cut during that time. Do you want to talk about how you managed basically from the time that you stopped being paid by your PhD program until landing this job eventually?

Paid Leave in Grad School

17:46 My-Linh: Yeah. So I will say that it’s amazing be at University of Melbourne where they allow you to take a paid leave of absence for three months, which is, I think completely unheard of in a U.S. program. So, I was fortunate. And then when I decided to take my leave of absence, that I had a little bit of time in between either to figure out how I was going to, you know, gain more money or just how to be more financially stable. So having that bit of time where I was able to just have some funding and not have to get a job immediately, I could have a roof over my head and have my bills paid. I’m also fortunate in that, you know, my partner was working and he and I had a long discussion about whether or not I needed to just find something temporary to keep things moving and how I needed to contribute financially to the household.

18:34 My-Linh: And we made the decision to say, you know, I took a leave of absence for a reason to kind of give myself space in my own healing. And so, to add this additional stressor wasn’t really feasible and that we could live on his income. So in full disclosure, I did have the benefit of having a partner who was able to basically float me financially and that we could live on his income. And it wasn’t huge. And I think as graduate students, we’re used to living on very small salaries. So it wasn’t a huge quality of life change for me. And I will say you know, sometimes there’s no shame in taking a job that pays money that isn’t aligned with your future career goals or what you’re doing in your PhD. It’s not your job forever. So if you need to get a job doing something you don’t like just pay the bills. There’s absolutely no shame in that, regardless of what other people are saying. You know what’s best for you and you need a roof over your head and to be able to pay the bills.

Job Search Strategies

19:34 Emily: So, if I’m getting the timeline right, it was something like between a year and a year and a half between when you were starting to apply for positions, and when you actually finally got the job that we’ll be talking about later on. And so, what strategies were you using during that time? Did you change any of your strategies? Figure out something wasn’t working pivot to something else. And of course, keeping in mind like this was 2020, so I don’t know. Maybe everyone had to change their strategies during that time.

19:59 My-Linh: Yeah. So to speak to that, I think, you know, we spoke earlier about this and that I was very intentional about my job search. And I think I was feeling sort of this internal pressure and this extra pressure to be like, apply to jobs, apply to jobs, put applications in, and you’re not doing your job search unless you’re putting applications in. And I just want to recommend to the listeners if they have the time to really do that self-reflection, again, the ImaginePhD assessments, or just in general, understanding what your values are. I think about it as sort of being the compass for job searching so that you’re certain that the jobs that you’re applying to are a good fit for you. Because there’s certainly a bunch jobs that I could do and could be good at, but might not like, or might not be aligned with my values.

20:53 My-Linh: So I think getting a lot of clarity around what it is you want, both, you know, in your life professionally, but then needs to meet your personal values as well, sort of like what fits your life. So that’s why for me, I knew when I was looking at my job search, I wanted to prioritize working remote. I wanted to have autonomy. I want it to be intellectually challenged. I wanted to be at a relaxed pace. There were very, very specific parameters around which I was able to evaluate different types of jobs. So I think that’s the number one thing that I would do that I think people miss, I guess don’t necessarily think about it as being part of the job search, but like doing that deep work and reflecting to know what it is that you really want. Because then, that helps you articulate to other people, your friends, first of all, what it is that you’re looking for and helps you identify positions that are a good match.

21:48 My-Linh: So I definitely spent a lot of time just collating a bunch of different job titles, which mean like research associate at one place looks very different than research associate at another place. So I did a lot of that sort of just like information gathering and just like plugging it into my Evernote to just review and be like, “Oh, that sounds interesting. Oh, I hate that.” This sounds really cool. So I got a better sense of what the market was looking like, how they were describing things, and where I might fit or how I might be able to use my skills to meet those needs. And then from there, I definitely did. You know, once I had a better idea of maybe the types of jobs I wanted, I reached out to my immediate network to help connect me with people in those types of jobs. For example, UX research or behavioral science.

22:35 My-Linh: So just getting me connected to get a better sense of what the industry looked like, you know, either in government, in the private sector. Just to get a better sense of what people’s day to day look like and be like, “That sounds terrible. I don’t want to do what you do. That’s great. I’m glad you love it.” But just getting a chance to talk to people. And you mentioned, right, this is during COVID times. And I would say that people were very happy to connect. People want to help if they can, especially if it’s talking about themselves in a job that they love. So I think that, you know, please reach out to me on LinkedIn, because I will be happy to talk more about any specifics around the job search. So that’s what I also found helpful. And then having a community of people to hold me accountable and to talk through things. I love my partner, but he doesn’t want to hear everything about my job search. So finding those opportunities you know, with The Wealthy PhD, with other communities of people where I feel safe sharing my journeys and disappointments and challenges and sharing successes were definitely enormously helpful in my job search.

Quality Over Quantity Approach

23:47 Emily: Yeah. I have a couple of follow-up comments in there. So one is, it definitely sounds like you took this like quality over quantity approach. You’re not just blast in CVs everywhere, but you’re really curating the jobs that you actually end up applying to. And I think that is, you said this and I’m maybe just rephrasing what you said earlier, but when you have that intentionality and you’re limiting yourself and not just applying everywhere, you’re able to very clearly understand and articulate what it is that you’re looking for and why you’re excited about this particular opportunity. And, you know, that’s what an employer wants to hear in the interview process is like why you’re a great fit for them in particular. If you know, a lot, you know, very deeply, you’ve done informational interviews with their employees. Like that puts you at a huge advantage for actually being the one to, you know, receive the job offer.

24:37 Emily: So I love the way you phrased, why you did things that way, but I I’ll just call that like quality over quantity in terms of number of applications you’re putting out there. And then the other comment, you said when you started this, that like you felt pressure to just be submitting job applications. And I recently read James Clear’s Atomic Habits, and I’m just excited about a lot of the ideas in that book. And so also one of the things that he talks about is like metrics and tracking the right things. And so if you’re only tracking, did you submit an application? That’s not the most useful thing to be measuring and promoting in your job search and application process. It’s what you were doing of like, okay, well, how many job listings did I look at today and gathered the information that I needed and analyze it to figure out what I want and what I don’t want? That could be a useful metric to track, even if you end up not submitting any applications that day, that’s still a really useful step forward in your process. So yeah, I just like that you emphasized not applying all the time is like the only thing that matters. A lot of that deeper work, self-reflective work is really important to this process as well. One other tool I know about, a little bit similar to ImaginePhD, is Beyond the Professoriate. Were you part of that community, or did you use that tool at all?

Community Support

25:54 My-Linh: Yeah, I was a part of that community. And it’s transitioning, so it looks a little bit different now, but I definitely have some folks from that community as well who I continue to work with in a professional development, co-working space. So that was a really great opportunity. Again, everyone in that space was job searching. Also had a PhD as well. So it was just a great community to be a part of. I can’t emphasize that enough is finding people to support you in the job search, because it often is long. There are a lot of barriers, perhaps mentally, that people are trying to overcome in transitioning. And so I can’t emphasize enough how valuable being a part of a community and having that support and accountability was.

26:38 Emily: It sounds like that’s one component of how you managed to keep going through this, you know, long job search process. I mean, you already mentioned the financial support from your partner, well first from your graduate program, but then eventually from your partner. That’s one way that you were able to sustain yourself through this. Sounds like community is another way. Were there any other factors that went into you being able to you know, keep your eye on the prize that like this job is out there and you’re eventually going to land it?

The Stages of Job Searching

27:05 My-Linh: Yeah. One thing I think about, and I mentioned earlier, is just job searching is overwhelming. If you just think about, I need to get a job. And so when you think about it in stages of job searching where you’re like, I’m focused right now on career exploration, or I’m really focused right now on doing my networking and learning more about this, or now I’m really, you know, I know the jobs that I want to apply to and the companies that are really interesting to me. Now, I’m ready to sort of like curate my materials. You know, now I’m going to move my CV into a resume. Okay. Now I’m ready to start applying. Okay, now I’m ready to start interviewing. Okay, now I’m ready to start negotiating. When you break it down into like lots of different parts and see that the job search includes more than just what I call the spray and pray approach.

27:54 My-Linh: So you just like put everything out there and you’re not prepared and you’re not articulating things well. And so just understanding to reduce the overwhelm, you don’t have to do everything at once. It’s just like, there are certain things that you can do at certain times to help move that ball forward in a way that isn’t overwhelming. And I think also to be really intentional about distinguishing your value as a person and how that’s connected to the work that you do. And not, yeah, just not connecting your self-worth to your job and not having a job. I think also, right, taking a leave of absence when I was not a student, I was like, how do I identify myself? I’m not, I mean, I am a student, but I’m not a student. I don’t have a job. So just recognizing that you are inherently valuable as a person and you’re worthy.

Self-Care and Boundaries

28:49 My-Linh: I think it’s really helpful in the job search to kind of, those are two separate things. Who I am and who I am in this job are two separate things. And to be intentional about boundaries that you have with people. You know, like who are the people you feel comfortable sharing your materials with to get feedback? That’s not everybody. Do you want to share your successes with everybody? Do you want to share challenges with only a certain set of people? So really being intentional about how you feel comfortable disclosing your own job search, I think is valuable. And I don’t think people, you know, thinking about whether your advisor’s going to ask you about it and how you want to respond. So for me, thinking about, you know, how do I have my emotional regulation up so that I feel prepared to have that conversation because it’s going to happen? Or your neighbor’s going to ask you, or your family’s going to ask you, and having kind of your own self-care on how you want to respond, what your boundaries are for that, because not everyone needs to know all your business.

29:58 My-Linh: What’s yours is yours and what’s theirs is thiers. And then just in general, just job search or just self-care around, like, what are the practices that ground you and having your daily practices so that you don’t just wake up and you’re just like job search. It’s sort of like who am I as a person beyond me getting a job?

30:21 Emily: I think so much of what you said is just like generally applicable to being a PhD student, being a PhD, and like that whole sort of conflation of your identity with your job, whether that’s as a student or not as a student. Like I can see how this was really helpful to you in this process, but this is going to be helpful to everybody listening. Even people who are not currently engaged in that or are approaching that process.

Commercial

30:46 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. This announcement is for prospective and first-year graduate students. My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society, offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s four-step Grad Boss method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, uplevel your productivity, and master time management. I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course titled, “Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School.” It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances in each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school. If this all sounds great to you, please register at theacademicsociety.com/emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join Grad School Prep if you’d like to go a step further. Again, that’s theacademic society.com/e m i l y for my affiliate link for the course. Now back to our interview.

Applying For and Landing Current Job

32:13 Emily: So let’s talk about the job that you finally got. And I don’t know if this was the first job offer and you had declined other things, or what was going on. But the job that you eventually took, let’s hear about whatever you’d like to share about the process of applying for that job and landing that job.

32:27 My-Linh: Yeah. So I ultimately applied to, like put in applications for four different places. That’s the total. Just so folks have an idea of how many I actually put in. The way that I actually got the job I did right now was through sort of a casual connection that my friend had made for me on LinkedIn. I didn’t know the person actually very well, and so I had a very casual conversation. And I wasn’t sure if it was the right fit at the time, I was very just sort of like, let me just be open to what, you know, open to the conversation and see where that goes. And so she was very, my hiring manager and now my current manager, was very excited about me. And so I was really excited. I’m like, “Oh, this could be a really good fit. I’m not sure I’m like connecting the dots, but like she’s connecting the dots.”

33:21 My-Linh: And I did end up applying and interviewing. And I didn’t actually get the job. You know, when I heard back from them, I think in December, I think is when I heard. But she said, you know, we’ve hired somebody else who has 10 years of experience in this, but we might be hiring again in the future. So, you know, let’s just keep in touch. And to me, I was like, “Oh, okay. You know, whatever. It’s fine I didn’t love the job anyway, I’ll move on.” But then an opportunity, she reached out to me, she actually got back to me and said, “Hey, we have a job opening for this position. You know, we can do an accelerated interview process because we’ve gone through some of these initial things, and I think you’re great. You’re a great fit for this.” So, part of that was sort of like having that set up of that initial opening, networking conversation earlier on, getting rejected from that job, and then having them come back. And that’s very common in the work place, I think. Yeah. I didn’t necessarily know that, but I have since read that it’s very common, right? Like we’ll just sort of have a backlog of people who could be good for this position, and they’ll hire for it. And so then when they’re ready to make the hire, they have those people in the pool already,

Interviewing as a Way to Network

34:33 Emily: I had never thought about that either actually interviewing for jobs as networking, like, and even just looking at it that way of like, there are more positive outcomes from this interview, other than you getting this particular job. Because in your case, they had another job later on that was a good fit. Or, you know, what, they might even be able to refer you to someone else they know at some other company, because they realize you’re a good fit for them or whatever. So had not thought about that before. That’s so interesting.

34:57 My-Linh: Exactly. I mean, I hadn’t shared this earlier, but I had actually talked to a recruiter, and I had gotten connected through from another connection on LinkedIn. And she wasn’t quite sure where to fit me. She’s like, “But I really like you. I want to find a place for you.” And so, that didn’t lead to a job immediately. But now I have a really great connection. I continue to have a great professional relationship with this recruiter. And just having, you know, having planted all those seeds, not knowing where they were going to go. And I think that’s reality is like, you know, that first conversation I had in November with somebody who was like, we had a really good connection. I wasn’t sure about the job yet. And that just sort of continued progressing, you know, 3, 4 months later when we were getting closer to more interviews and meeting more people where it became a lot more clear that the job was a good fit for me.

35:52 My-Linh: And I was very fortunate in the sense that I had another job that I was applying to that I almost thought was a good fit for me. It looked very different. It was a, you know, small behavioral science think tank, mostly government focused. And I would be doing sort of like end-to-end research as a research associate. So, in this job that I ended up landing, I’m a medical and behavioral strategist in the healthcare industry. And you can look me up on LinkedIn to find out what that company is. And so my department specifically focuses on using behavioral science to improve clinical trials, the training and engagement for that. And, you know, as a behavioral scientist, that’s a perfect place for me to be, but I would never have put myself there. But they saw. They saw those connections before I did.

36:41 My-Linh: So I ended up getting offers the same week. And I don’t know how common that is. I wasn’t trying to be super aggressive in the job search. It was just sort of happenstance that the timelines worked out because this other job for this think tank, I had just started applying, you know, maybe a month and a half previous. So it was happenstance that yeah, just the way that the timeline progressed to get offers in the same week. Yeah, it was very, very fortunate on my end. So in terms of the actual job offer, when I had first interviewed, I had had a chance to talk with the recruiter. And so when our recruiter had asked me, you know, what are my salary requirements, which is very common for a recruiter to ask, you know, this is not a time for negotiation and this is not a time to give numbers.

Keep the Conversation Going

37:37 My-Linh: So you want to keep the conversation going. So what I typically recommend is to say, thanks so much for asking about salary. You know, it’s not the top priority and I’m sure this is a really good fit for me and I’m sure we can find something that’s amenable for both of us. With that in mind, could you tell me what range you had in mind? Or what range you had budgeted for the role, right? So like to turn it back on them. And so that’s how I knew that the range for this, what they pitched to me back in November actually, was you know, probably 95 to $100,000. I was like, you know, I didn’t have any emotional response to that, but I knew that’s sort of where I was. And so when I was going into the second time I talked with the recruiter, he asked me the same question again.

38:26 My-Linh: And I literally just said the same thing to him. He talks with lots of folks so I don’t think he remembered my particular script. And he said to me, you know probably between, you know, the low end would probably be $115K to $130K. And so, right, without saying, I had thought a lot about like, you know, do I want to say, “Oh, well, last time you told me this.” I just kept it open and just sort of was open to that. So I knew that the salary band had increased. So I thought, okay, well maybe, you know, coming up not even having my PhD yet. And you know, I do have some experience, but I don’t have any industry experience, you know, probably I could get 120 maybe with that. So when I found out that I got the job offer, they called me up and their offer was within the salary band of 130 to $150,000, upper end of that. And my jaw just dropped. I pretended to stay cool, but it was completely unfathomable to me what they had offered. Yeah, I just, I didn’t think that I would ever be in that salary range at all. Based off of right, just like my own limiting beliefs about what I could make or how I deserve to be compensated.

39:49 Emily: Because I’m thinking that’s probably like four to five to six times what you were making as a grad student, right?

39:54 My-Linh: That’s right. Yeah.

39:55 Emily: So never anchor yourself on that grad student salary.

Normalizing Negotiation

39:59 My-Linh: Exactly. And so another part of, I guess, being open to that is when I talked to people, informational interviews, I also specifically asked them if I knew them well enough to say, how much do you make? Just so I could get a sense of where people were. So I knew that $80,000 was probably on the low end of what would be acceptable for my training and knowledge and that, you know, a hundred, 120 is sort of where people are at. So to come in above that at the offer, I was like, okay. So being again, someone who loves professional development, I knew I had to negotiate. And it felt very uncomfortable to negotiate because I was like, no one’s ever valued me, like at that. And again, right, I’m not talking about tying my value to my salary, but that was just completely unfathomable to me.

40:52 My-Linh: I would’ve been happy to accept, you know, with that salary range. And so I took some time to kind of reflect and say, they’re expecting this of me. You know, it’s a large company. All recruiters expect you to negotiate. But you can’t just come to say, like, I deserve more money because I know I should negotiate, right? So again, to be prepared for those negotiation conversations, like, you need to have a rationale for why you want that increase and sort of what you’re bringing to the table for them. And I knew that there was nothing to lose. You know, I was already happy with the salary. And I think that the common myth that people have is like, oh, if you ask for more, you seem greedy. When in reality, you know, you value the work that you bring to them and you are going to be a top performer for them.

41:42 My-Linh: And it’s in their best interest. Having gone through the whole hiring process, they want you, so that’s when the cards are in your hand to make a negotiation and at no time before that, until they give you an offer. They want you, and they will do everything that they can to go to bat for you, if you provide them with enough information. So that’s what I did. You know, ultimately it was a five minute conversation with the recruiter and that, you know, that got me increased by 15K within a five minute conversation. And part of that was being prepared for that, all the anxiety and nerves that come with having a negotiation and knowing that recruiters do this day in and day out. So they’re not phased at all when they asked you for a number, but even if it was a five-minute conversation, that was like three days of me preparing for that conversation, getting prepped, mentally, knowing what my scripts were and how to respond, but that five-minute conversation increased my base salary immediately.

42:43 My-Linh: And so, I just really want to advocate, you know, as a woman, as a person of color, anybody should be negotiating, even if the offer is amazing. Because 1000% my offer was amazing and I would be happy just signing off on that. But like five minutes, you know, someone went to bat for me, they were excited and it said to me, yeah, this is the right place. You know, for me, they really valued what I’m bringing. So that’s just what I want to emphasize to everybody is that even if they’re coming at you with a really impressive salary, that it’s always in the cards for you to negotiate, and if they’re going to low ball you from the beginning, I personally would walk away, because you know that they’re not valuing you for what you want. So like, when they low ball you, you might get maybe 2000 more, maybe.

43:36 My-Linh: And if that’s where you’re starting, all of your bonuses, all of your pay increases from there, start from that point. So that’s why I want to just emphasize for everybody that having that base salary is really important to negotiate. And then there’s other things you can do in terms of like, you know, PTO or other professional development things, which fortunately they were already included in my package. So there wasn’t really that much more for me to ask because they had given me what I wanted with salary. So the worst they can say is no. The best is, you know, you get some increase in that base.

5 Minutes Could Gain You $15K

44:12 Emily: I really like that you mentioned these timelines. So it was a five-minute conversation that you spent three days intensely preparing for, especially emotionally. But I think also some logistically, so you put scripts together and so forth. But as we talked about earlier, it’s also the years of building towards this moment that gave you those tools and the mindset to know to ask for that extra $15,000. And that, I mean, that is a big amount of money, even on top of an already generous salary. I mean, that’s almost going to be your whole 401(k) for like the whole year. So it’s an amazing amount of money, but just knowing there was so much preparation, just to keep in mind, there was so much preparation that went into that five-minute conversation. Not even just the three days immediately spent before it. Is there anything else that you want to share about that negotiation process?

45:05 My-Linh: I would say that it is stressful, but there are a lot of resources out there on how to prepare for that. And practicing is crucial. Again, like I mentioned, you know, you probably get to negotiate maybe like three, four times in your life, maybe on a salary, whereas recruiters do this all the time. So it does take preparation and you can do it, and there are lots of resources and I’d be happy to share those with you. And practice. Practicing it out loud so that you feel comfortable.

Balancing Work and Finishing the PhD

45:36 Emily: That’s a very generous offer. Just to give like a quick update. So you’re, I don’t know, a month or two into actually, you’ve started this job now. But you’re also still finishing your dissertation. So can you just give us an update on how things are going now that you’ve started this fantastic job and what your plans are for the coming months?

45:57 My-Linh: Yeah, so actually part of the negotiation was asking for a later start date. And yeah, being able to actually have like three extra months to put in full-time work on my PhD, knowing that I had a job, gave me some peace of mind. So, also, right, you can negotiate for a later start date. But yeah, it’s been tough navigating both, right, when you’re sort of like onboarding. And I knew I wanted to get to a certain place in my thesis to just sort of feel comfortable with doing both. And, fortunately, I work on a globally distributed team. I can work flexible hours. And so I mostly work on Eastern time hours. So I worked from 7:00 AM to 3:00 PM, take a break. And then I do thesis work for between like two to three hours. And I take Thursdays off from doing any additional thesis work.

46:50 My-Linh: But it’s a lot, so it’s a lot to be managing that. And I, like I said, I wanted to get to a certain part of my thesis where I didn’t have to do as much analytical work so that I can really focus on the writing. And not everyone has, you know, things don’t always work up with the timing. But yeah, that’s sort of where I am right now. My job, you know, knows that I’m working on my PhD, is 1000% behind me finishing my PhD. And so that’s another thing I think I wanted to mention is that people oftentimes think that, you know, organizations don’t value your PhD or you need to your PhD. There are institutions that want you because you have that credential and because you have that knowledge. And being at a place that recognizes the effort that you’ve put in and wants you to fulfill, you know, your degree is a place that you want to be. You know, a place that you can use your PhD and that values that. So that’s another thing I want to emphasize in job searching.

Money Mindset Influenced by The Wealthy PhD

47:53 Emily: With our second to last question here, I want to come back to where we started the conversation, which is where you and I met, which was through The Wealthy PhD. And one of the sort of effects of The Wealthy PhD that I could see on you especially is that you really took to the mindset, the financial mindset, the money mindset aspect of that curriculum. And you really, even more so than I do, like were implementing the strategies from, you know, working on your money mindset. So can you just speak a little bit about what influence The Wealthy PhD or the mindset stuff that you learned from The Wealthy PhD, what effect that has had on this job career search process?

48:31 My-Linh: Now, I think The Wealthy PhD was so crucial right at that time when I was job searching and also just ready to like get my finances in order and be responsible. And so yeah, one of the first activities was around mindset and just understanding how many limiting beliefs there are as a PhD student about money. Especially around yeah, how you should be valued in the workspaces if you’re not in academia. And so this idea of like PhDs, we’re so passionate about research, it’s fine if we don’t make a ton of money, that’s not the priority. And it still isn’t, you know, my salary isn’t my priority. Or this idea that like I have all this specialized knowledge and people outside aren’t going to value that. And, you know, I shouldn’t work at these places because they don’t value what I do or, you know, there’s so many limiting beliefs around money.

49:27 My-Linh: And being one of the first activities that we did, I think it was helpful to say like, well do the research that proves or disproves this. You know, where do you see this being affirmed, and where do you not? And then anyone who knows me knows that I love a good affirmation or two or 10. So to share those affirmations, I have them on sticky notes and I continue to share them with other people who are job searching, which is my skills and talents are in demand, and I deserve to be paid well. Those two, you know, they’re very simple, but I kept looking back at those, you know, on my sticky note to kind of ground me in my search. And so that was huge. For me, you know, when I sort of got the job offer to be like, yes, this is the affirmation realized. My skills and talents are in demand, and I deserve to be paid well.

50:23 My-Linh: And obviously this wasn’t some like woo-woo magic, right? Like there’s a lot of work that went into realizing that, but that definitely, you know, when we talked earlier about what sustained me, having that to ground me in my job search was exceptionally helpful. So yeah, people are going to come in with all sorts of, you know, mindsets about money, about the job search. And, you know, even people listening today and be like, “Oh, this isn’t for me. You know, I’m not there. I don’t have those circumstances.” So, you know, what I have to say to that is like, you find what works for you. Maybe the affirmation doesn’t work. But you have to find the mindset that’s going to facilitate you doing what you need to do. And if you want to continue having the limiting belief, then that’s only a disservice to you. And so how do you get yourself in this space? Not from a toxic positivity mindframe, but the idea of like what is going to help me be successful initiating my goals? And having a healthy mindset is a part of that.

Overcome Your Limiting Beliefs

51:24 Emily: I think you phrased that so well. And this interview, and this part of this interview, I think can be one of those examples of when someone listening has a limiting belief around how their skills can be valued outside of academia, or whatever. They can say, “Well, I heard My-Linh talk about this wonderful job that was such a good fit for her that’s paying her fabulously,” and look at that. That is an example of, you know, a counterexample from this limiting belief that I have. I’m glad you mentioned, like, this is not woo-woo, this is not toxic positivity because there’s a phrase that I see kind of thrown around sometimes, which is whether you believe you can, or you can’t, you’re right. Which is not a hundred percent true, right? There are actual, in real life, not in your head barriers to you achieving something that you want to achieve, whether it’s in your finances or your career or whatever. But it is also true that your mind and your mindset will limit you if you allow it to. So, like, in addition to those real, in the world, barriers that many, many people face, don’t add your own mindset on top of that, right? Like do the work to get your mindset in the right place so that you can do the best you can in the circumstances that you’re in. And also of course, work to dismantle those barriers for yourself and for other people later on. So is there anything else you wanted to add about this before we conclude the interview?

52:45 My-Linh: Yeah, I guess I wanted to just be open with our listeners and to say, you know, I don’t share my story to say, “Oh, look at me. I make all this money, I have this great job and look what I’ve achieved.” I share this story to say, imagine the unfathomable happening. Imagine that I’m in your corner rooting for you, too. This is not about a competition. This is not about who gets paid more. Who’s valued more. I want everyone to find a job where they’re paid well, and using the skillsets and talents that they have. And so I just want to hold vision for everyone who’s listening. You know, like I’m not sharing this story to say, this is the magic bullet to do things. I’m sharing the story so that you can also see and plant the seed that it’s possible for you, too. And, you know, again, when I said earlier about, you know, who’s kind of in your support system, you want people who are rooting for you for that job that you want, and that pays you well. And, you know, count me in that corner.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

53:44 Emily: Oh, thank you so much for that thought, My-Linh. I wish we actually were ending the interview there, but I have one more question for you, which is the one I ask of all my guests. Which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

53:58 My-Linh: Yeah, I think for me thinking about, we talk a lot about investing, and I think about investing in quality of life. Investing in the things that are important to you. And there’s a lot of like scarcity in the PhD world. We don’t have large salaries. I’ve lived in that space. But spending money on things that you know are going to be helpful in supporting you professionally, personally, in achieving your goals. And I can’t emphasize enough. Like I invested in myself by being a part of the Wealthy PhD, and other PhD communities that I’m a part of. And yes, that’s money, and it seems like a lot of money. And it’s not directly related to your research, but taking time to figure out where you want to invest in yourself and what that looks like monetarily, to help support you in your goals is something that I would recommend to all early-career PhDs or in general to anybody. But I think oftentimes, right, this idea of just we have to save all this money. I don’t have money for this, find places where you can invest money in yourself. Not the market, but yourself for the longterm.

55:10 Emily: I love that sentiment, of course. And I’ll add onto that as well. Like just to broaden that thought into the rest of our conversation on this job search and career exploration process. Like you’re investing heavily in yourself by getting a PhD by all the opportunity costs that you are incurring, by all the time, heavy, heavy investment. But getting the PhD is like maybe an 80% solution to getting the job that you want. Like you need to put in that last 20% of the career exploration, of the networking, of the professional development, of all the stuff that we’ve been talking about during this conversation to really ultimately land that job that’s a great fit for you and compensate you on everything that we’ve been talking about today. So like, it’s just getting, we’ve used this ball metaphor a couple times, but just getting to that, like finish line, getting to the end zone, like just that last couple of steps of the process to give you that amazing satisfaction in your career that you are hopefully now going to enjoy.

56:02 Emily: Yeah, you need to do that last little bit of investment on top of what you’re already putting into the PhD or else, you know, you could enter the PhD and not be super happy with a job that you end up with because PhD programs don’t really prepare you that well for the many, many types of jobs that are available to PhDs. You have to do just that bit more that we’ve been talking about. So My-Linh, I loved this conversation, and thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing all of this with the listeners. You’ve mentioned LinkedIn a couple of times. Is there any other good place where people can find you?

56:33 My-Linh: That’s probably the best place to find me, and yeah. Feel free to connect with me. I’d be happy to talk more specifically about my job search or about my job. So yeah, feel free to link up with me on LinkedIn.

56:45 Emily: Very good. Thank you so much.

56:46 My-Linh: Thanks, Emily!

Outtro

56:53 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This JD/PhD Overcame Money Terror and Avoidance

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Michelle Thompson, who has had multiple careers as a lawyer, an adjunct, and now a coach and business owner. Michelle observed her mother’s terror and her father’s avoidance regarding money and combined the two in her own adulthood. Emily and Michelle discuss the financial struggle of earning a low stipend as a graduate student in NYC and taking on student debt for summer research and daycare/preschool. It wasn’t until Michelle started her business that she proactively changed her relationship with money through a book and coaching. Michelle speaks to the merits of facing the dark side of your relationship with money; she is now in the best financial shape of her life.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

money mindset PhD

Teaser

00:00 Michelle: Whatever bedevils you about money, you have to look at because whatever bedevils you will sabotage your relationship with money. Take time to do that work and I promise you whatever is screwing with you with money will screw with you about actually getting the doctorate done.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts.

00:32 Emily: This is Season 9, Episode 6, and today my guest is Dr. Michelle Thompson, who has had multiple careers as a lawyer, an adjunct, and now a coach and business owner. Michelle observed her mother’s terror and her father’s avoidance regarding money and combined the two in her own adulthood. Michelle and I discuss the financial struggle of earning a low stipend as a graduate student in New York City and taking on student debt for summer research and daycare and preschool. It wasn’t until Michelle started her business that she proactively changed her relationship with money through a book and coaching. Michelle speaks to the merits of facing the dark side of your relationship with money; she is now in the best financial shape of her life. Quick content warning. There is a brief mention of suicidal ideation in the interview.

01:24 Emily: It’s the end of July, and I know that taxes are probably the furthest thing from your mind at the moment. However, I do have a special request for every one of you who is going to be on fellowship in the upcoming academic year, whether as a new fellow or continuing fellow. If your university does not offer automatic income tax withholding on non-W-2 fellowship income: Would you please request that my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients, be purchased on behalf of those who want to take it? You could make this request of your graduate school, postdoc office, department, graduate student association, etc.

01:57 Emily: The workshop assists graduate student and postdoc fellowship recipients who are not having income tax withheld from their stipends or salaries figure out whether they are required to pay estimated tax and if so how much and when. The workshop consists of numerous short videos, a spreadsheet, and a live Q&A call just prior to the next quarterly deadline. You can find more details at PF for PhDs dot com slash q e tax. That’s q for quarterly e for estimated T A X.

02:28 Emily: I’ve been enrolling individuals in this workshop for several years, and in the last year have branched out to bulk purchases for university offices and groups. Purchasing this workshop on behalf of students and postdocs is incredibly helpful because it can reach people who aren’t even clued in about the possibility of having to pay quarterly estimated tax or who are unable to pay for the workshop.

02:51 Emily: I’m making this request now because the next quarterly deadline is September 15, 2021, and the office or group you approach may need some time to arrange the purchase. If they are interested, they can get in touch with me at emily at PF for PhDs dot com. The start of the academic year is the perfect time to learn about estimated tax because you can start saving for your eventual payment from your very first fellowship paycheck.

03:18 Emily: Thank you for helping me spread the word about this workshop and prevent financial hardship next tax season!

Book Giveaway

03:31 Emily: Now onto the book giveaway contest!

03:36 Emily: In July 2021 I’m giving away one copy of Get Good with Money: Ten Simple Steps to Becoming Financially Whole by Tiffany ‘The Budgetnista’ Aliche, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community Book Club selection for September 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during July will have a chance to win a copy of this book.

03:56 Emily: Not only will Get Good with Money be our Book Club selection for September, but we will also devote our monthly Challenge to assessing and working through the ten aspects of financial wholeness as individuals.

04:09 Emily: If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate AND REVIEW this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at emily at PFforPhDs dot com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of July from all the entries. You can find full instructions at PFforPhDs.com/podcast.

04:31 Emily: Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Michelle Thompson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:41 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Michelle Thompson. She’s had quite a career. She is a JD and a PhD, actually. She’s now self-employed, although she’s had many other jobs in the meantime, and what we’re going to talk through today is kind of her life in stages and also what she’s learned at each stage, the kind of money mindset that she developed at each stage. She has some very interesting things to say to us about academia. I’m really looking forward to this conversation. Michelle, thank you so much for joining me and would you please introduce yourself to the audience a little bit further?

05:14 Michelle: Absolutely! It’s my pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. I am the founder of a boutique coaching firm called Michelle Dionne Thompson Coaching and Consulting. I work with clients to marry their purpose with their expertise in communities. In addition to that, I do teach part time. I love to teach. I love being with college students. I teach in the black studies department at City College of New York. And I am currently a publishing scholar as well. I’m turning my dissertation into a monograph. It’s called Resistant Vision: The post-emancipation realities of Jamaican’s Accompong Maroons from 1842 to 1901. Because I’m a glutton for punishment, my first career rodeo was as a lawyer. I was a member of the inaugural class of what is now Equal Justice Works fellows. And I used that fellowship to deliver legal services to people living with AIDS in Anacostia, in Washington, DC. And after that, I negotiated collective bargaining agreements with service employees international union district 1199, EDC in Baltimore, Maryland, and Washington DC.

06:20 Emily: Wow. I wish that we were going to talk more about your career specifically today. It sounds fascinating. But where you are going to focus on the finances through a few of those stages.

Money Mindset Developed in Early Childhood

06:30 Emily: Let’s start where all good therapy sessions do in your childhood. What money mindsets did you observe in your parents and also develop during your childhood?

06:43 Michelle: My parents were raised poor people from Jamaica and my mom immigrated from Jamaica to England to become a nurse. It was her goal in life and it probably opened up more than she ever thought. She was shrewd about money, but she was absolutely terrified about handling money. My mom died of dementia and at the one of the few last times that she could really comprehend her money, this I use lightly because dementia, her money situation, she actually had an estate worth over a million dollars, way more than she ever, ever thought she would ever, ever have in her natural life.

07:38 Michelle: But to get there, she was shrewd. She knew how to save. For a girl who didn’t have much food, she was blown away with how much food she could acquire with so little money in the United States. And every single time she got paid, she was absolutely terrified — “I have to pay the bills!” She’d take out her checkbook. She would balance her checkbook. She would make sure all of the transactions were recorded in the check register. She was flawless about it, but she was absolutely terrified every single time it happened. She worked at University of Chicago, hospitals and clinics for many, many years, and that allowed her to send my sister and I to those schools for many years, because we got half off of the tuition. Every single time the tuition bill came, she would be like, “Oh my gosh, I have to pay the tuition!” She would work overtime. It’s a hard life in some ways. She would have to work overtime for a few shifts and the money was there. If you think about it in the more woo-woo world, she could manifest money. That wasn’t the problem, but the energy of fear, always behind that. And I think that actually very much shaped my relationship with money as a young person and actually shaped this as a new thought. It shaped an attitude of avoidance of money.

09:10 Emily: Yeah. Wow. Thank you so much for that. That really, it passed down to you. It rubbed off on you in a way that you were treating money, thinking about money similarly. It wasn’t like you went the opposite direction. You were sort of more a little bit in line with what your mom was thinking.

09:25 Michelle: Well, the fear was totally intact. I think as an adult, that’s what I grappled with the fear of not having money. But instead of being on top of it, I would avoid handling it. And my dad apparently was more of the avoidance end of things. My mom would get mad because they would get the mail and he would just set them aside. She’s like, you have to open that. She would move towards it, he would move away from it. I took his move away from it and the fear.

09:56 Emily: I see, I see. Actually I’m remembering there are these there’s this framework, I’ve actually talked about it on the podcast before — we’ll link the episode in the show notes — but there’s a framework around it’s called money scripts. There’s four personality types around money and I remember one of them is money vigilance. So sort of what your mom was doing, being really on top of it. And then another one is money avoidance.

10:18 Michelle: I didn’t know these scripts, but here we go.

10:21 Emily: You’re falling very neatly into those boxes sound like, but in both cases it’s motivated by fear, which is very interesting.

10:26 Michelle: Absolutely, absolutely.

10:27 Emily: Did that actually, this fear part of it, did that play into your first career choice as a lawyer? Was that like a stable thing for you financially or that you perceived it would be?

10:38 Michelle: I remember being 12 and writing down in a journal, I want to be a lawyer. And I think I wanted to be a lawyer because I knew it was a way to make sure I earned the money I needed and not have to worry about it. Earned enough money so I could avoid it, now that I think about it. Right. I do think that because I was doing public interest work, I wasn’t making that kind of money. It didn’t manifest that way, but I think that was part of the intentionality behind becoming a lawyer.

11:11 Emily: Yeah and that’s part of the public perception of lawyers, maybe, especially at that time. I think now we have maybe a better understanding, post-recession, what law careers are, but before then it’s like, oh, you know, doctor, lawyer engineer, like great salary.

Money Mindset During Law School

11:27 Emily: Let’s talk about your money mindset, money situation during law school and then as you were working as a lawyer.

11:33 Michelle: With my fellowship came up a component that was loan forgiveness, but it wasn’t mashed in the same check. They would give me two separate payments, so I would get my paycheck and then I would get the loan forgiveness. And it was the first time I’d been held that accountable for money, so every single time I got that check — again, everything was about fear — I couldn’t figure out how to save money really during that time. I think if I had the tools I have now, then I probably could have, but I couldn’t actually figure it out at the time. I was really scared of handling checking accounts. There was all of this stuff. I had actually lost a checking account. And so I was unable to open one. I can have a savings account. I was paying everything cash and I was holding onto things through a savings account or cash. My whole money systems were really very, very janky and it was spending money to pay bills. I was good about making sure I paid the rent, generally about paying my student loans, paying the utilities, but again, every single pay period, I was absolutely terrified of doing it.

12:51 Michelle: By the time I got to working at the union, it was enough time that I could reopen a checking account. And I needed a car. That was the first like huge purchase I had to make. And, oh my gosh! I did research. I’m like, okay, this is the car I want. What really, really scared me was car insurance. I started to do it and I was in my early thirties and I was like, I can’t afford to have a car. And I just stopped the process. Avoidance. I just stopped the process. I can’t do this. When I worked for a couple more months, I’m like, okay, this clearly is not going to work. I need a car. And so it was like, okay, you have to look into other insurance companies. Then I finally found All State. I’ll say it actually gave me a rate that I was like, “okay, that I can do.” But I was absolutely terrified to actually make that purchase. I was terrified to do the insurance. I would shake is I handed them the check to actually do the down payment on the car. Complete the fear that my parents brought to handling money.

14:02 Emily: So that terror was specifically that you could not actually afford the car, that you would not be able to make the payments on the loan and the payments on the insurance?

14:12 Michelle: I think going into it, that was certainly the fear. Although, clearly I had budgeted and saw, “oh, I could do this,” but I was scared about it anyway, the way that my mom was scared about tuition.

14:28 Emily: Yeah. And I guess her solution was working more with that also a solution for you, or was earning more through overtime not a possibility?

14:37 Michelle: That wasn’t a possibility but I budgeted it. I could see the budget and how it would work. I don’t think, I believed the budget, which is funny, right? But I don’t think I believed the budget. And then shortly after that, there was an opportunity. I was thinking about buying a piece of real estate and I could do it because my employer had a 401k set aside for me that I could actually use to apply to a first-time home purchase. I saw cute place. I was like, oh, wow, this would be good. Actually, it wasn’t that expensive, especially given Washington DC. I was too scared to do it. I’m like, I can’t afford this responsibility. Oh my gosh, I’d have to tear up the floors. You know what I mean? The whole, “I can’t afford it. I can’t do it. I can’t afford it. I can’t do it.” That was the recording, if you will. That was the greatest hits that I played and I backed out of it until later.

Money Mindset During the PhD

15:31 Emily: Wow. Yeah. Let’s talk about you moving towards your PhD then. Maybe a little bit about why you did that.

15:39 Michelle: Sure. So a couple of things. On my mother’s side, we’re the descendants of a community of runaway slaves called Maroons. And those were some of the earliest historical narratives I heard. I had met my partner, my current partner in Washington, DC, when I was practicing law, who was a full professor at a major public institution in the Midwest and had gotten an offer to come to a school in New York city. And she said, you could get a doctorate. And I was like, what? Because I assumed that that process was only open to people who like went from undergrad and they got like A’s and whatever. She’s like, “no, no, no, you could totally do it.” And that’s what inspired me to do it. But also having a partner who earned a lot more than I did actually provided me with a level of financial security that actually made this easier. Like it made it look like a possibility. I didn’t have to be in New York city, paying York rents, trying to cobble a life together for myself. There’s a different kind of security for the first time in my life. And as a feminist, it’s like really, really hard for me to say that, but to be real about my money story, actually being partnered did provide a level of financial security that I had never experienced before.

17:02 Emily: Yeah. I mean, of course your finances naturally always change in some degree when you partner up, but I’m wondering, were you still feeling terror? Were you still feeling avoidance? Did you ask your partner to take over not only some of the financial, like literal paying for things, but also maybe the management? How did that work out?

17:25 Michelle: I did the management, she did the paying. We actually had split it up so we would pay for things according to percentage. Like if we put our income together, if we added it all up together, my income would come to a percentage of her income, so I was responsible for that percentage of what we were doing in the household. And that’s how we set it up. I found that I was a lot less scared to handle money with a partner. There’s something about being on your own and handling it that was far more terrifying to me than doing it with somebody else.

18:01 Emily: Yeah, I think along those lines of like your relationship with money, I think does change a bit when you, when you are partnered. I really enjoyed the, um, having like sort of the team aspect, like we are working together towards these goals and I had someone to bounce ideas off of and sort of talk over decisions. And when you’re the only one responsible for your money, it’s all on you. Because it is such a taboo topic, most people don’t have an accountability partner, they talk to, or like a friend that they’re comfortable talking to about this. It’s really like you just finally have someone who you can really share and be open about these things.

18:34 Michelle: I wouldn’t go that crazy with it. I don’t feel like we ever did that. But at least I knew that, I mean, for me, it was important to know that I wasn’t going to be homeless and that I would be able to eat, which is very tight again, it’s very tied to my parents own fears because they were raised poor. So I knew that part would be covered.

18:57 Emily: And this is specifically during your PhD program, right? Salary as a lawyer, you’re doing okay. But as a PhD student, it’s a very different situation. Can you talk about what your stipend was? And you mentioned you were living in New York, can you tell us about what the finances on your side of things were?

19:13 Michelle: Sure. I was earning, I want to say $20,000 a year and nothing over the summer.

19:19 Emily: And what year was that in?

19:23 Michelle: This was 2001. I started my doctorate in 2003. I did a master’s in 2001. Yeah, I think it was something like that. Then I gave birth to my son in 2004. So I actually borrowed because you can’t have a little, little one and write anything. Like you can’t, you can’t be doing the full-time childcare. The first year I worked, I didn’t really borrow. I was a teaching assistant and that actually worked for that year, but the following year I needed to do research in Jamaica. I actually think things worked out. There was a fellowship I got, um, that was part of New York university, so that worked out that year. But the following year, when we returned to the states, that’s when I needed him to be a preschool. It’s the years between when they’re three and five, when they’re — New York city now has public preschool, but there was very little of that at the time. I couldn’t afford in terms of getting my work done to have an hour and a half of childcare. That was useless. By the time you get to an hour and a half, you could write for 15 minutes and then you’re up and you have to get the child’s again. I actually borrowed a lot to make sure that he was in preschool. That’s what I assumed on my end during graduate school and I would also borrow to get through the summers because I never could get summer funding, which is, I think that’s a really hard part of being a doctoral student, summer funding. I never could get summer funding, so I borrowed, so I could go into the field in Jamaica. Although it was cheaper to live in Jamaica, I would borrow it to go there. And, I would borrow to do my research and I would borrow to do childcare so I could do my research.

21:30 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. This is bringing another element to the conversation, which is being the parent of a child who needs full-time attention, and how to balance that with doing your dissertation. I have talked to some people who try to work and do the childcare and trade off with their partners and such, and that’s often motivated by a philosophy around like what child-rearing should be and they try to make it work. I know it’s challenging, but it’s also on the other challenging —

21:58 Michelle: I found that the person who earns the most money will do the least childcare. That’s how it worked out in my relationship. And I’m not going to negotiate about whether I need the childcare, the childcare has to happen. So that was the deal with the devil I made. Fine.

22:17 Emily: Yeah. I have another episode that I don’t know if it’ll be published before or after this one, so this might be a preview of coming events for the listener, about another story of a parent who actually became a single parent at some point during graduate school and the same kind of thing of how much student debt had to be taken out to finance the daycare and so forth for the child. And it’s another huge layer of financial pressure that can happen for PhD students who parents during that time, or already were parents before starting graduate school.

22:46 Michelle: Exactly.

Commercial

22:49 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude!

Emily: This announcement is for prospective and first-year graduate students.

Emily: My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society, offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s 4-step Gradboss Method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, uplevel your productivity, and master time management.

Emily: I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course, titled “Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School.” It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances in each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school.

Emily: If this all sounds great to you, please register at theacademicsociety.com/emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join Grad School Prep if you’d like to go a step further. Again, that’s the academic society dot com slash e m i l y for my affiliate link for the course.

Emily: Now back to our interview.

Financial Stress during the PhD

24:16 Emily: So what does it do to a developing scholar to be under financial stress, like $20K per year in New York City, kind of financial stress?

24:26 Michelle: You know, again like this is where my spouse or partner at the time really provided. I can’t imagine what it’s like having to come up with rent in New York City on $20,000 a year. I just can’t. Actually, if I had to do that, I think I definitely would’ve practiced law part-time. I would’ve by hook or crook figured out how to do it and it would have taken me a lot more time to finish my doctorate. It’s just because they’re two huge things. I didn’t have to do that. My partner, we were in university housing, so we were paying far less rent. It was actually embarrassing. I had colleagues who lived in my building who were doctoral students. They paid more for rent than we did. We had a lot more space in our apartment. That was actually something that was in place. For me, you house me, you feed me, I’m good. I could cover the food, the housing was covered and it was okay for me.

Michelle: What was stressful was how am I going to fund the summers? It was always like, I guess I’m going to borrow. That was what was hard for me. For me, I just have to know there’s a pot of money I can go to, to make it work. I actually did a good job of saying, I have this much for the summer, this is how I’m going to handle that. Or, okay, good. This is the, this is the pot of money for childcare. Got it. I think at another point in my life, because I felt less secure, I might’ve dipped into that for other things and then would always be scrambling to make it up. That actually didn’t happen. Childcare always got paid. I could always make my summer bills. I could always pay for the flights. That actually worked out. And so I think in some ways I wasn’t as pressed, but I was borrowing out of my ears to actually make it happen.

26:19 Emily: And did financing your PhD feel different than financing your JD?

26:24 Michelle: No. Because I borrowed to get my JD. But for the JD, I went to a state school and they actually gave me, I wasn’t an Iowa resident, but they actually gave me in-state tuition, so it was so little money. It was ridiculous.

26:40 Emily: I guess I’m just thinking about like the norms in fields, like it’s normal to borrow for your JD. It’s fantastic if you get a discount or get a scholarship or whatever. For the PhD, it’s much more, well, it’s kind of field dependent, whether or not it’s normal to borrow. And I’m sure it’s city dependent. I mean, in places like New York, it’s gonna be more likely.

27:00 Michelle: I find in the humanities it also depends on where your advisor’s willing to go to bat for you. And my advisor, wasn’t super thrilled to go to bat for me. If they’re willing to go to bat for you, they’ll find money, they’ll help you find money, but that wasn’t the case for me. And I’m determined. I’m like, “oh, I’m here, I’m gonna finish this, I see this through to its completion.” For me, it’s just raw determination that has me doing things. I’ll just do what it takes.

Finances as Gatekeeper for Academia

27:42 Emily: How do finances serve as a gatekeeper for academia? I mean, you’re obviously tenacious, but maybe to someone else, would it have been more of an impediment or even maybe for you at a different time of life, if you weren’t partnered, like you said, you may have been doing it part time. What’s the gatekeeping aspect of this?

27:59 Michelle: There’s so many things. If you don’t come from a family who has an academic background in this particular way. Okay, it’s great. Like it’s a fully funded program, they’re covering your tuition and they’ve given you a stipend. That’s what I received. And that is great, I’m not knocking that. And there are things that you don’t know about. The cost of research is high. There’s a reason why faculty have research accounts. Just saying. If you have to travel to do any of your research and most of us have to travel to do our research, even if it’s domestic or international, you don’t have a handle on…I think what really turns the screws on people, if you’re not clear about it, is that you really have to pay to do the research to make this happen. And that’s where the the rubber hits the road. We act like we don’t have to talk about people having families in academia, but people have families in academia and you can’t raise a child full-time and do any meaningful research and write up that research. You can’t square, you can’t square the circle. It doesn’t work.

29:33 Emily: Yeah, academia might be flexible, but that doesn’t mean it’s not hours and hours and hours of work that have to be done with a degree of concentration.

29:41 Michelle: Exactly. If you’re going to sleep at any rate. I’m a fan of sleep. I think that’s the gatekeeping part of it. If you’re male and you’re married to a female, it’s expected that that spouse is going to pick that up for you. It’s expected that you’re doing the thing that’s going to make you the breadwinner of the family. That’s not expected the other way around. Programs don’t feel any obligation to make that happen for you. And then again, who’s going to bat for you to actually find funding for summers, etc. That’s a whole other whole other.

30:15 Emily: Yeah, and I think we’ve seen this thrown into super sharp relief during COVID. It’s a recession that’s largely women are losing or leaving their jobs at much higher rates than men are. Lot of that has to do with caregiving responsibility.

30:29 Michelle: Exactly. Women are publishing substantially less during COVID. For academic women it’s just dropped precipitously because Junior’s on zoom over here.

30:39 Emily: Yeah. These stresses have been there for many, many decades, but they’re much more obvious in the current crisis and things have sped up and become much more acute right now.

Finances and Money Mindset Post-PhD

30:50 Emily: Let’s talk about your story a little bit more. Once you did finish the PhD, where did your career go after that and where did your relationship with your finances go after that?

30:58 Michelle: I finished and it was like number one, “Oh, I’m not, I’m not getting institutional support from New York University anymore.” I was an adjunct at three different schools. I live in Manhattan. I was commuting to New Jersey and I was commuting to Staten island, which can take just as long as commuting to New Jersey. I was working these jobs, exhausted and I couldn’t make my credit card bills. I put my loans on forbearance but I couldn’t make my credit card bills. All of that fear about money was popping up again. And actually got to a point where I was getting suicidal and I would look at my eight year old and I go, you can’t do that to him.

31:52 Michelle: I think if I give my mind a solution for a problem, I can focus on the solution and not the problem. I decided I’m not going to pay the credit card bills for now, which is actually probably a good decision. It wasn’t great for my credit history, but it was a good decision. I was like, okay, maybe I could do journalism. Turns out journalism is in the same free fall that academia is in, pro-tip. I had been part of this peer counseling organization for years, and I knew that I had skills of listening to people and helping them shift their lives. I was thinking, I wish I could make money doing that. I come to my computer and there’s an email that says giving away scholarships to learn how to become a coach and I was like, that would be, thank you. I applied for the scholarship and I got it and I hadn’t looked back, but it turns out, just because there’s a possibility of how you could like build something so that you can support yourself doesn’t mean that you don’t have all the same money dredge that you had. And actually it’s been being a business owner that has put in sharp relief that I cannot carry this abject terror about handling my money with me the rest of my life, because I’m going to be handling a business side of finances and my own personal finances.

33:14 Emily: Yeah, I hadn’t thought about that, but you really… being an employee is vastly different financially from being a business owner and I can see how that would really bleed over and affect your entire relationship with money and not just handling the business finances.

A Shift in Money Mindset

33:28 Michelle: Exactly, exactly. I noticed that once clients paid me, it would be this absolute fear. Like, “oh my gosh, they paid me.” I’m here to be paid by clients! I mean, I’m here to help people, I’m here to serve, but people pay me to serve them. That’s the arrangement. This is not, this is not an energetic moment here. I hired a coach in part to help me sort this out. There’s a book that I use to actually help me deal with this constant worry about finances and to actually look at the emotional bedrocks connected to me and my money story. I actually started to incorporate a series of tools to help me manage the money and it got me to a point where I could call the credit card company to go, “okay, look, I know I owe you money, what’s the arrangement we’re going to make? Money wasn’t doing things to me. I was starting to shape the narrative I wanted to about money.

34:37 Emily: Wow what a shift, what an incredible shift!

34:37 Michelle: That’s been a huge, huge shift.

34:42 Emily: I’m going to get that title from you after the interview and I’ll put it in the shownotes.

34:47 Michelle: That’s what it is, Overcoming Underearning by Barbara Stanny.

34:52 Emily: Yes! I have read a different one of her books, but yes, I’m familiar with that author.

34:55 Michelle: This is the foundational book that actually helped me turn things around with money.

35:03 Emily: Wow what a recommendation!

35:03 Michelle: Again, it was all of the overcome your money fears and earn what you deserve. That was what I needed to do. Amazing.

35:12 Emily: That you still have this at your fingertips. Literally did not have to get up out of your chair to get it.

35:16 Michelle: I know, it’s like right there. I’ve worked through it twice. And if I find I’m up against another something, I’m going to pull it back out again and I’m going to work the exercises again. This book has been absolutely foundational for me. Working with a coach about my business and part of why — my coach was Britt Bolnick with In Arms Coaching is so amazing is that she understands that to run a business, you have to tackle all of these inner demons that like show up and try to sabotage you, otherwise you can’t build a business, you can’t serve people. That’s really the bottom line — you can’t serve people if you’re afraid of the money.

35:57 Michelle: She brought in other people who helped you think about what is your personality with money? I’m an investor, apparently. Who knew? I got to assess that. This man ran a workshop that we did. It was like, oh, I could save. You know, it’s not a lot, but for the first time in my life, I actually have saved in a regular savings account, a little over a thousand dollars. It’s not much, but considering that I could not figure this out at all, it’s huge! I paid off a line of credit. I paid down, I finally had room on my credit card. If I needed to rent a car, I could do it. These things have changed. A friend of mine told me about You Need A Budget. Game changer. This is a work in progress, but it’s actually been a point where it’s like, oh, I need to set up regular times with my money and we need to have hot and heavy dates. It’s set up a set of habits that I don’t worry about having money.

37:06 Michelle: Last year my mother died. God bless her. She did enough work with her estate that there was actually, after actually her care for having dementia, there was an estate. Not the biggest estate in the world. I don’t need the biggest estate. It’s a modest estate. I already got some of that. I got the apartment in DC. I sold it some years ago and I got the profit from it and I just handed half of it to my partner because I was afraid of what I was going to do with the money. This time, I was like, hmm, excellent. I’m a member of business networking international. There was someone in my chapter who does financial advising. I was like, hi, I’m on the phone with you. I need you to help me handle this money. I didn’t blink. I wasn’t freaked out by it. I replaced my hardware. This is a very different…I don’t have to be an abject fear every single time I’m dealing with money. That it’s like, wow. That has been a big shift.

38:04 Emily: Yeah! This is an incredible, incredible shift. And especially because your initial relationship with your money, the avoidance and the fear and so forth was in place for decades. Starting your childhood, for decades in your adulthood as well, and this leveling up. Well, I don’t know if it’s up, but getting to the level of being a business owner forced you to totally work on this and really master it. I’m so glad to hear those examples. I think during our initial phone call, you mentioned You Need A Budget, but you said that you couldn’t have used it prior to this transformation. It’s a great tool, but you have to be ready to use the tool.

38:45 Michelle: If you’re terrified of looking at your money and I’m not saying I’ve conquered it. You don’t like, it shows up in different ways. But if I don’t understand that, oh right, I can be really scared when I handle my money, I would have just avoided using the tools. Like that’s great. And not use it. But now I’m like, okay, do you know you’re scared. Let’s just get into it. Let’s get into it and do it.

39:12 Emily: Yeah. Wow. What a fantastic shift!

Money Mindset as a Business Owner

39:13 Emily: Is there anything else that you’d like to tell us about your money mindset now, or your relationship with money as a business owner?

39:22 Michelle: I really firmly believe that…I’m a big follower of Carolyn L. Elliott who wrote the book, Existential Kink. One of my coach for coaches, her approach to coaching is about looking at shadow sides. It’s the very Yung-ian and approach both of them have very Yung-ian approaches to the world. And I really firmly believe that if you do not turn and face the shadow, if you will, the dark side of yourself, when it comes to money and actually just really bring that dark side to life. It’s not just about money. It’s about pretty much anything you’re doing about writing, about building your career — if you do not turn and face the places that might scare the bejesus out of you, whatever it is, you’re not going to get a handle on your money, on your love, your sex, whatever it is, your career options, anything that means anything to you, you’re not going to be able to handle it. You’ve got to be able to walk and spend time in those dark places, because once you actually really clear about what the peanut gallery is doing, you can actually go, okay, I understand that’s a peanut gallery. We’re going to do this.

40:41 Emily: I see. And I’m so glad that you mentioned the different tools that you use, the book, the coaching, and so forth, to get to this point, to be facing that aspect of your personality or that side of yourself. Thank you so much for sharing this story with us and I know, again, it’s not something we talk about a whole lot, and I’m sure there’s people in the audience. Well, I’m not sure. I don’t know if someone experiencing money avoidance will be listening to a podcast about money, but maybe someone knows someone and they can send this episode and say, you know, we grew up this way with money. You want to listen to what Michelle has to say about this, because maybe what she experienced can help you.

41:17 Michelle: I’ll say this. I know that I’ve listened to all sorts of resources about money before I actually did anything about it. So I know you money avoiders. You actually would like to not avoid money and you’ll acquire resources. The next step is to actually turn and use them.

41:33 Emily: Yeah. And I think for you, part of your money avoidance, and part of your solution to this was the book Overcoming Underearning. There might be a different book that’s appropriate for different people, depending on because that’s really like an entrepreneurial type. That’s for entrepreneurs.

41:48 Michelle: There’s Jen Cincero, You’re a Badass at Handling Money, which is funny, but also really concrete tools. You see, I’ve read them all. But that’s a really lovely starting point to actually manage money as well.

42:04 Emily: I’ve read that one too. It’s a lot about money mindset stuff, so it’s a wonderful one if you want to start learning about that and start to change your mental relationship with money.

Best Financial Advice for an Early Career PhD

42:15 Emily: Michelle, thank you so much for this interview and standard question that I ask all of my guests to wrap up is what financial advice do you have for an early career PhD? What’s your best financial advice? And that could be something that we touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely other.

42:33 Michelle: Number one, you may need to do the research necessary to find funding for those times where your academic institution isn’t going to fund you. And they may not be super supportive in doing it, but do it anyway. That’s number one. Number two, it’s never too early — All right, I have three pieces of lights. So that’s number one: do the research. Start in September, to look for money for the spring. I mean, for the summer.

43:06 Michelle: Number two, whatever bedevils you about money, you have to look at because whatever bedevils, you will sabotage your relationship with money in a time where you actually are going to need to budget and be really on top of your finances, because I assume I’m presuming that you’re single and you don’t have a lot of the fundamental support that you need. So take time to do that work and I promise you, whatever is screwing with you with money will screw with you about actually getting the doctorate done.

43:39 Michelle: And number three, once you start to clarify what the, what those devils are, find the tools to help you make it work. YNAB is, I think it’s $90 a year. It is worth every dime, as a way of actually managing what you have and sticking with it. Those would be my three pieces of advice.

44:05 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. I think that’s a wonderful quick summary of kind of the journey that we’ve gone through during the interview. Thank you again, Michelle. Thank you so much for this interview and for joining me.

44:13 Michelle: You’re welcome! Thank you for having me.

Outtro

44:20 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode!

Emily: pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved!

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow:

  1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me!
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Emily: See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps!

Emily: The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC.

Emily: Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

This PhD Found Financial Peace through Pursuing FIRE

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. 50 of By 50 Journey, a federal employee who is pursuing financial independence and early retirement (FIRE). Dr. 50 came to the US after finishing college, but worked minimum wage jobs while she learned English until she could apply to PhD programs. She worked full-time to self-fund her PhD over six years. Ultimately the PhD was a game-changer for Dr. 50’s income, and within three or four years of finishing she was earning a six-figure salary. However, a higher salary was not the solution to her family’s financial problems. Dr. 50 describes her emotions at their financial low point, when they completed their debt repayment journey, and upon discovering the FIRE movement. Dr. 50 concludes the interview with an incredible insight regarding financial struggle and striving.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

PhD FIRE

Teaser

00:00 Dr. 50: And one day I was like, okay, this is it. I am making a six-figure salary and I couldn’t even afford a lunch at the cafeteria. And it’s like a wake-up call. I need to do something. We need to do something.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode 16, and today my guest is Dr. 50 of By 50 Journey, a federal employee who is pursuing financial independence and early retirement: FIRE. Dr. 50 came to the U.S. after finishing college, but worked minimum wage jobs while she learned English until she could apply for PhD programs. She worked full-time to self-fund her PhD over six years. Ultimately, the PhD was a game-changer for Dr. 50’s income, and within three or four years of finishing, she was earning a six-figure salary. However, a higher salary was not the solution to her family’s financial problems. Dr. 50 describes her emotions at their financial low point when they completed their debt repayment journey. And upon discovering the FIRE movement. Listen through to the end for an incredible insight from Dr. 50 regarding financial struggle and striving.

01:28 Emily: We’ve just passed decision day, April 15th, so I’d like to extend a massive congratulations to everyone who committed to a graduate program for fall 2021. This is an incredibly exciting period of time. As you dream about and plan this new phase of your life, keep your finances top of mind. You’ve already made the biggest financial decision of your graduate career by one, choosing to attend graduate school, and two, committing to a specific stipend and location. The next biggest decisions are housing and transportation, which presumably you will lock in over the next few months. Before making those big commitments, I recommend that you sketch a budget to figure out how much you can afford while ideally maintaining some kind of savings rate. If you would like some help with that process, join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. Inside the Community, you’ll find my How to Draft a Budget From a Distance webinar and custom spreadsheet. We also have a forum and monthly live calls where we can chat more about your specific situation. I would love to assist you with this process in any way that I can.

Book Giveaway Contest

02:44 Emily: Now, it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In April, 2021, I’m giving away one copy of Walden on Wheels by Ken Ilgunas, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for June 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during April will have a chance to win a copy of this book. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of April from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. The podcast received a review recently titled exactly what I was looking for. Quote, having read a lot of scattered news articles and attending college workshops, I still felt a need for expert advice on investment strategies for international students. I stumbled upon this podcast while doing my weekly finance research, and I can say that Dr. Roberts does a phenomenal job at it. PF for PhDs is one of the few resources I could find which has got something for every grad student trying to figure out personal finances. Highly recommend it to incoming and current students alike. End quote. Thank you so much for this review. I am focusing more energy in 2021 on serving international students, postdocs, and workers, and I’m so glad that is coming across. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. 50 from By 50 Journey.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:19 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. 50. She actually goes by Mrs. 50 on her blog, By 50 Journey, which is a FIRE journey blog. However, she does have a PhD. So, we’re going to call her Dr. 50 today. She has an incredible story to tell us about coming to the U.S. As an immigrant, speaking no English, having no money, and you know, pursuing a PhD and ultimately being on this path to financial independence and early retirement. So, really delighted to get her story today. Dr. 50, welcome to the podcast. And will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

04:55 Dr. 50: Thank you so much. That was a really great introduction. Yes. That was a long time ago. I would say like over two decades, I came to this country and I had nothing. I mean, it’s nothing. So, I was trying to get a job, but I didn’t get any, because of course I didn’t speak any English. I couldn’t even answer a simple question like, how are you, what are you doing? Because I could understand, but I couldn’t express myself. So meaning trying to get a job, even a simple job. I couldn’t get it. So I was thinking, ah, this is, this is tougher than I thought it would be to start spending my life in a new country with my new husband. And I was trying, okay, let’s go back to grad school. That way I have friends. I have professor, I have, everybody so I can practice on my English. Because back in the day I didn’t have any friends, I don’t have anybody, except just for my husband. Right?

05:59 Dr. 50: And years later, I got accepted into grad school. I was so happy, but on the back of my mind, Oh well, okay, now here I am, I didn’t have any money. I didn’t have any financial support. And then I was trying to get funding, trying to get an assistantship, fellowship, whatever that was available. I didn’t get it. So, my first semester I used my credit card to pay for the tuition. I was, Oh, this is not going well. I have to do it better. So I was trying to find a job on campus. But as a student, we couldn’t work more than 20 hours. I said, this is not going to be enough to pay for everything. And not even the rent. Finally, in my second year of grad school, I got a full-time job which was wonderful. I was so grateful and I worked my way and then time flies.

07:07 Dr. 50: I got my master’s and PhD in six years because I was like, okay, let’s get this done as soon as possible so I can get a job and make real money. Right after I finished my PhD, I got a very great offer, even though I finished in the year 2008. So, everybody knows 2008 was the financial crisis. So I denied that job offer. I don’t know why, maybe because of the years, years, and the struggle of the grad school, I didn’t want to get that job because it was so stressful. So I accepted, I was a post-doc for a year and a half. During that time I was trying to find a real job. So I got a great job offer again. And then I got that job. And then my income was increased significantly. I would say, like triple. But unfortunately that job, it was in the city and I was traveling 90% of the time.

08:11 Dr. 50: And I just had a baby. I was happy with my job, but the work-life balance was not great. So I quit my dream job and then I had to find a job that’s not in the city. And then I got that with a negotiation that I negotiated with them. I managed to get the same salary that I had in the city, but I would live in the country. So, which is great. So, the struggle that was in grad school and a great job offer and determination and then patience. So I would say this is from, didn’t speak English to have a career that I wanted because of my PhD, and I was really happy. So, I’m ready to go on to the next level.

Pre-Grad School Finances

09:12 Emily: Yeah. I want to tease out a couple other pieces of that stories so that I understand it correctly. And thank you for giving us that like overarching view of how your career has evolved. So, it sounds like when you came to the U.S., it was a few years in between when you first arrived and when you were accepted to graduate school, is that right?

09:33 Dr. 50: That is correct.

09:35 Emily: And so, were you ultimately able to find some kind of job? I know that you said that you struggled at first, but how were the finances for you and your husband during that pre-grad school period?

09:46 Dr. 50: Yeah, I had odd jobs washing dishes. I answered the phone. I worked in a Chinese restaurant. I worked in a factory. I worked night shift. I did everything that I could do to earn money. And back in the day, it was the minimum wage. I believe it was $4.75 an hour. And yes, we were struggling before I got accepted into school. Even though after I accepted into grad school, we were still struggling because okay, now I spend my time studying during the day. I didn’t have time to earn money, so it was zero, but yeah. And using credit cards to pay for living expenses, even to pay for rent.

10:33 Emily: Yeah. So, it sounds like you very clearly identified the PhD, having that credential, as the path out of these minimum wage positions, is that correct?

10:44 Dr. 50: Yes. Yes. Definitely.

PhD as a Path to Professorship

10:47 Emily: If you had stayed in your home country, do you think you would have pursued a PhD?

10:53 Dr. 50: Yes, because before I met my husband I had a fellowship lined up for me, which they would pay for my school expenses, tuition, and living expenses. And yeah, I was about to go to doing my masters at the time, but decision between, okay, stay here and pursue my dream of becoming a professor or go there and be with my husband, and the love all my life. So, it’s a life-changing decision.

11:28 Emily: I am glad to hear, though, that you were already oriented in that direction. You were already planning on doing the PhD. It’s just, you decided to do it in a different country and had to take a couple steps back and learn the language and so forth. But you still got to, in terms of doing the PhD, you still got to that same goal.

11:44 Dr. 50: Yes. I always wanted to be a professor. A university professor.

Making Ends Meet in Grad School

11:49 Emily: And one other question I had about kind of the finances during graduate school. You said that you initially started out financing, you know, you weren’t funded, so you were financing it through consumer debt, and ultimately you got, I think you said a full-time job, right? So was it the case that your PhD was never funded? You didn’t have an assistantship or a fellowship, but you worked aside from doing the PhD?

12:10 Dr. 50: Yes. I worked 20 hours at the university dining hall in the morning from 3:30 to eight o’clock. And then during the day I worked as a lab technician for 40 hours. So yeah, my week was full. I would get up at three o’clock and then wouldn’t come home until 11 at night.

12:38 Emily: So you were working 60 hours at jobs plus the PhD work?

12:45 Dr. 50: Yes. And I enrolled full-time because if I did it part-time, it would drag me to eight or 10 years. I couldn’t afford that. That’s too long.

12:57 Emily: Wow. Incredible. I can’t, I can’t even fathom how you got through that. And you said it took six years, right?

13:07 Dr. 50: Yeah. It took six years, a master’s for two years and PhD for four years.

13:11 Emily: And you kept up that, I mean, I’m just like flabbergasted, you kept up that schedule the whole time?

13:16 Dr. 50: Yes. And finally, when I did my research, I quit my dining hall job because it was, Oh, it’s early. And I had that job because I got free meals. So, to save money, so I got free meals for five days. So, that’s awesome. Finally, I didn’t have time to do my research, so I quit that job and then I just kept my full-time job.

Post-PhD Finances

13:45 Emily: Yeah. I think we’re getting a real picture of how your finances were, but what it took, the work it took to keep yourself afloat, you and your husband afloat, during that time. And you know, clearly why you had the motivation to do the PhD. So, I’m really glad to hear that element of the story. Thank you. And so, you told us a little bit earlier about, you know, having the postdoc position and then, you know, taking a couple of different jobs, post-PhD. Did you want to add anything in there about how your income has been or anything like that?

14:20 Dr. 50: Yeah, sure. So, during my grad school years, the part-time one was the dining hall one. That was minimum paid. So, it was like, six or $7 an hour for 20 hours. So, that wasn’t that much. My full-time job, I worked as a lab technician that was $15 an hour. Back in the day, that was, I’d say 15 years ago, that was a lot for me. So, I’d say that I earned the most was $34,000 a year. That was awesome. That’s great money for us. That allowed us to buy a house, this would be our first house, and I didn’t have to worry much about my school tuition. And during that time I was able to talk to my boss, have them pay for a couple of classes. So, that was great. And so, post-PhD I had a postdoc and that doubled my income. I earned $63,000. That was in 2009. I graduated in 2008. So, it was double wage. Our finances were starting to get a lot, a lot better.

15:42 Emily: I just want to ask there, what kind of setting was that postdoc position in? Because that sounds like a pretty well-paid one, especially for that time.

15:52 Dr. 50: I was in the federal agency.

15:55 Emily: Okay. Gotcha.

Money Mindset: Salary Negotiation

Dr. 50 (15:56): And I, again, I negotiated my salary. I always had this mindset, even though with the federal, we have to follow rules and although certain staff follow certain salary level. Yeah. I negotiated. So, actually, it started at, I believe back in the day, was like $51,000 and I was able to get $63,000.

16:23 Emily: I think that’s a really great tip for anyone else who’s looking to apply for federal jobs because you have the, it’s the GS system, is that right?

16:31 Dr. 50: Yeah, it’s the GS system. Even though you’ve been told, okay, this position will give you the GS level this or accept this, you can always negotiate with them. Even though they have the fixed table to follow, you always can negotiate. Yeah. So, after the postdoc, I got a really great job offer in the city. This is in New York city. I was like, Oh my God, New York city, that’s a high cost of living. But it was a job of my dreams. So, I took it and my salary was doubled again. So, I made a six-figure salary. So I came from making minimum wage and then making a six-figure salary within, I would say, three or four years after I got my PhD. So, it was very quick.

17:28 Emily: Yeah. And then you said you maintained that salary even though you didn’t live in New York anymore.

17:33 Dr. 50: Yes.

17:33 Emily: Yeah. That’s fantastic.

17:35 Dr. 50: I came back to the federal, and I negotiated with them again. Different agency. And then they said, yes. I said, Oh my gosh. Yeah. It was so wonderful.

17:46 Emily: And do you still work for the federal government?

17:47 Dr. 50: Yes.

Overcoming a Large Financial Struggle

17:48 Emily: Okay. Yes. Thank you so much. It’s an incredible income trajectory. Also in this period post-PhD, I understand you overcame a large financial struggle. Can you tell us about that?

18:01 Dr. 50: Yes. So, during my graduate school years, I mean, as I already told you guys, we didn’t have much. Plus I supported myself and my family, husband, because he was still trying to finish his college also. So, I’d been using credit cards to pay for my tuition. And I was trying to pay it off every month. Some months I did, and some months I did not. So, it’s accumulated from there. And also, when I got my first real job in the New York City, we had our first child and then baby came and husband still couldn’t find any jobs. So, he was unemployed for a long time. Plus, the daycare cost was like so high. So, it’s better for him to be at home and take care of the baby. And then I’ll take care of the financial side of it.

19:04 Dr. 50: And yes, during this time we have surgeries, hospital, car wreck, and everything you can imagine. So, we accumulated a lot of debt. And one day I was like, okay, this is it. I am making a six-figure salary, and I couldn’t even afford a lunch at the cafeteria. And it’s like a wake up call. I need to do something. We need to do something. So, I say to myself, okay, no more excuses. I don’t want to wait until he got a job or I don’t want to wait until the baby leaves the daycare and goes to school. Let’s start now. Let’s do it. Yeah, all of the frustration. I just made our plan, trying to pay off the debt and made a budget and started doing my excel sheets. And then we go from there. And then in less than six years, all the debt was gone, including the mortgage.

20:04 Emily: Wow. What was the total debt balance then? Between the mortgage and the consumer debt that you were working on?

20:10 Dr. 50: Yeah, we had one car payment that was $18,000 and credit card debt was almost $80,000 and the mortgage was $114,000. So, I would say that 230 to $240,000.

20:26 Emily: Wow. So, within six years you paid off 230, $240,000 of debt on $120k ish, it sounds like, salary. Plus your husband was not working or maybe started working at some point during that period?

20:43 Dr. 50: No.

20:43 Emily: Not working during that period.

20:45 Dr. 50: He was not working yet.

20:45 Emily: Okay. Home with the baby.

20:48 Dr. 50: Yes, home with the baby.

A Shift in Money Mindset

20:48 Emily: Yes, plenty of work there. But it doesn’t sound to me, I want to ask you a little bit more about that transition about that day you couldn’t buy the lunch, you were so frustrated. Because the things that you mentioned, you know, that got you into the debt, the medical bills and the car wreck, none of that was frivolous spending. So, what did change actually at that point?

21:13 Dr. 50: It changed because, it’s kind of embarrassing to say, but I spent hours, hours just to pay a couple of bills. Because I have to think in advance, okay, if we have enough to pay for this and that before the next paycheck comes in. So, basically, we were living paycheck to paycheck. We stressed ourselves financially. Okay, the baby crying, I was trying to pay the bills. And I spent a lot to pay a couple of bills. This is, something’s wrong here. It’s not right. So I was, yeah. From there. Okay. Let’s make a decision to tackle this issue from the cause. Yeah. I was struggling and sad, and then I had nobody else to turn to. And I would say, let’s do this. I don’t want to wait any longer. Let’s do it. Our lifestyle will change, no more shopping, no more eating out. Let’s do this. If we do this, we can do this in under 10 years. In 10 years, we will be a whole new person, a new family, and then life will be much better.

22:29 Emily: And is that how you felt when you, you know, sent off the last payment?

22:33 Dr. 50: I felt relief. Okay, I don’t have to make all these calculations and then try to predict the future if my paycheck will be the same or if we will have any unexpected expenses. But I was like, Oh, well, okay, now we are definitely, the debt is gone. I still, so surprisingly, I still felt the same. It wasn’t the financial that I was looking for. I feel I miss something. We were missing something, but I couldn’t put a word to it until I found the FIRE movement.

Discovering the FIRE Movement

23:16 Emily: Yeah. So FIRE, acronym for financial independence and early retirement or retire early. Would you please explain for my audience, you know, your version of what FIRE is and why that spoke to you, and why you decided to pursue it?

23:31 Dr. 50: Yeah. So, before I knew it was a thing I always, Oh, wait, I don’t want to work. I don’t want to do this for the next 40 years. I mean, I only get one take on this planet. I want to do something that really matters, really matters to me and to my family, and really matters, that I am passionate about. I don’t want to spend my 40 years doing this. So, but I didn’t know what that feeling was until I met the FIRE movement, which you already said stands for financial independence, retire early. So, at this point, I want to be financially independent. The retire early can come back later. So, to me, FIRE means that you don’t have to worry about money anymore, meaning you don’t have to be worried about making a living, making money to support your lifestyle, your life. I mean, you can spend your time doing what really matters. To me, I really have a passion about helping animals in need, dogs and cats at the shelter. So, I really want to pursue that.

Commercial

24:50 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. This announcement is for prospective and first-year graduate students. My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society, offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s four-step Grad Boss method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, up-level your productivity, and master time management. I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course titled Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School. It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances in each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school. If this all sounds great to you, please register at theacademicsociety.com/Emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school, and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join Grad School Prep, if you’d like to go a step further. Again, that’s theacademic society.com/E M I L Y for my affiliate link for the course. Now, back to our interview.

Striving for Financial Independence

26:18 Emily: It sounds like when you were heavily in consumer debt and you had your mortgage, you were stressed out and you thought that it was because you were playing this paycheck-to-paycheck game, right? Which is super common, that you have to really figure out, you know, when things can be paid so you have money in the bank to do it and all that. But then, once you got out of that level of stress, you said you still kind of felt the same. And so it sounds like you realized that it wasn’t just the paycheck to paycheck game. It was that you had to have a paycheck at all. You wanted to be freed of needing to work to support your lifestyle.

26:53 Dr. 50: Exactly. Yes. I still felt the same. I was surprised. Oh my gosh. I should just be, feel very happy. Definitely I felt relieved, but it wasn’t the happiness that I was looking for. And then, yeah, I just don’t want to have any paychecks at all. I just want to have my money working for me instead of working for the money. I had been working for the money for a long time, and I don’t want to work for the money anymore.

27:19 Emily: I see. Can you give us a little bit of more of the technicalities of how FIRE works, at least in your example? Like, do you have a number that you’re shooting for, and what are the strategies that you’re using to get to that point?

27:31 Dr. 50: Yes. I have several options. So, because my older child and my husband had a chronic disease that the health insurance is the other issue, but yeah, I have a couple options here. So, the first option would be, we accumulate enough money that we can live off the investments, mainly to live off the dividends or the 4% rules. If you Google 4% rules, you will know what it is.

FIRE: The 4% Rule

28:03 Emily: Yeah. I’ll just say for the listener that there’s kind of a rule of thumb in the FIRE movement, which is that if you are supporting yourself through paper assets, stocks and bonds and so forth, the rule is that you save up, invest, 25 times your expected spending level in your retirement, or if that’s what you’re doing, and that you can withdraw 4% per year from your portfolio over the long-term without endangering, you know, that you’re going to draw it down to zero. That’s a really brief explanation. There’s a lot more underneath that, but that’s the gist of the 4% rule.

28:40 Dr. 50: Yes. So, the first option would just live off the 4% rules and everybody will be staying home and taking care of the kids. So, I just had a baby this year, so yeah, the FIRE just came back to me again. And then the second option would be like my husband keeps working. So, we will have the health insurance that we desperately need. And I would be at home and taking care of the baby. And then the third option would be to move to another country that has the universal health insurance. So, we would get that issue covered, and then we’d just live off of the investment.

29:20 Emily: Yeah. So, which one is your plan A?

29:23 Dr. 50: My plan A is the option two. So, have him keep working so we don’t have to move. And then, because by that time they’d be about to get close to the number. The younger one was still be in elementary school. So, would be just like six or seven years old.

29:40 Emily: Okay. And I think this, you know, this health insurance thing that you brought up is something that is such a big conversation in the FIRE movement in the United States, not necessarily elsewhere. And there are plenty of people who are keeping jobs, not because they need the money, but just because health insurance or the risk that you take, if you went on certain kinds of health insurance plans, is so great here. So, it sounds like either your husband will keep working, or maybe at some point we will have a universal option and then that’ll give you a lot more flexibility.

30:11 Dr. 50: Yes, that’s true. Yeah. If you have that flexibility, that would be great. He doesn’t mind working at all. He loves working. So, I’m really grateful for that.

Federal Retirement Benefits

30:21 Emily: Since you’re a federal government employee, do you have a pension? Or do you have like defined contribution plans, or what’s the deal with your retirement?

30:30 Dr. 50: Yes, I do have a pension that is very, very small. So, let’s say if I worked for 30 years plus if you meet MRA, MRA stands for minimal retirement age, if you meet 30 years at your minimum retirement age, you will get 1% of your high three of your salary. The high three is your last three years of your salary. Let’s say, to make the math easier, if you make a hundred thousand a year for the last three years before you resign. So, 1% of that, and times 30 years, so it’s only $30,000 a year, plus tax and all the deduction, it wouldn’t be much. And we have a 401(k), like any other industry, but what we call it TSP. TSP stands for Thrift Savings Plans. So, it works just like 401(k), but it’s just called differently.

Investment Changes Toward  Achieving the FIRE Goal

31:39 Emily: And since you already went through that massive debt payoff journey before discovering the FIRE movement, was there anything that you actually started changing in your finances once you had that identified as your goal?

31:52 Dr. 50: Yes. I’m glad that you asked that question. So, it changed dramatically. So, I’ve always been maxing out my 401(k), or my TSP, every year. Okay. So, we agreed as a family that we’re going to pursue FIRE. Let’s do something different. Because if I keep my job, if I still continue trying to do a traditional retirement, I would work into my MRA at 57 or 60 years. And if you want to pursue FIRE, we need to fill a gap between that because I cannot take the money out until 59 and a half. So that gap, we cannot draw our 401(k) or any retirement account. So, we opened a broker’s account and instead of maxing out my 401(k) and his 401(k), we just contribute to the match just enough to get the match from our employer. And then divert all the money from that into the brokerage account, the taxable account.

33:00 Emily: So, that sounds like you felt like your post-60 retirement was well-funded enough. And I mean, you’re still going to get the match, so there’s still more growth and a little bit more contribution there, but it sounded like you thought that that was well-funded enough. So, now you’re going to focus on those years between whenever you do stop working and when you can start to access those retirement accounts.

33:21 Dr. 50: Yes. It would be about 10 years. So, the “50” came from, I would like to retire by the time I turn 50. Yeah, so, 10 years I calculated it. All the expenses in the future. I came up with the numbers that we have to have at least $600,000, or $600,000 to be okay, that’s the lean FIRE. If you want to get more comfortable, I say $750,000. That will get up to be better than lean FIRE. Lean FIRE is just like, minimal, barely enough to live on.

34:00 Emily: Anything else that you changed aside from the destination of your investments?

34:05 Dr. 50: Yeah, that’s the one thing. And then we also, any leftover money that we can save, any activity that we cannot pass by, like re-doing our budget, do the meal plan. Budget system number one and meal planning, not going out, basically just frugal living. And then I started a side business. Anything that I can sell. And as a family we like, talk, okay, this is the goal that we want to do. And everybody was on board and yeah. Every little thing, side hustles, living frugally, anything will go to the FIRE account.

Lifestyle and Money Mindset Pre- vs. Post-Grad School

34:54 Emily: How does, how you’re living now–you know, frugally and so forth, saving a lot, working hard–how does that compare to that pre-grad school period, or even the time when you were in graduate school, and you had that heavy workload? I guess I’m asking, how does your lifestyle compare, and also how do you feel about your finances now compared to back then?

35:18 Dr. 50: I would say I feel a little bit better. Because back in the day, we were struggling financially trying to put food on the table, trying to pay rent and then trying to pay the mortgage. Right now, we’ve comfortably more than enough to pay all the expenses, living expenses and mortgage, everything is on auto pay. I didn’t have to worry about if we have enough money. If the bill comes in, if we have a roof leak, if we have a broken pipe, we have emergency funds. So yes, my feeling was much better, but financially I was still trying to meet my financial goal, which is the financial independence. So it’s a different feeling, but I would say a different feeling kind of between struggle and the finish line, I would say.

36:14 Emily: So, sort of like struggling to get off the starting blocks. Right? To even make it, you know, to have a tiny bit of financial security, versus now, like you just said, you can see the finish line. You’re striving and you’re racing for that finish line. And yeah, I would imagine that, even if your lifestyle is pretty low, like you’ve tried to like be pretty frugal and stuff, having that financial security of the, you know, X, many hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, in the bank and the investments, it has to be a massive, massive relief on your mind.

36:49 Dr. 50: Yes. Yeah. It would be a relief because right now we trying, I would say we are in an accumulation phase trying to get as much money into the FIRE as much as possible, as soon as possible. But at the same time, I just don’t want to stress myself out. Because one thing that I learned from our debt-free journey, our debt journey was like, because at the end of the day, you just want to be happy, right? The money doesn’t make you happy. You just need to learn to live in the moment, even though you are trying to achieve something or aim for something, but overall you just want to be happy and just trying to live in the day. I just don’t want to stress out too much because during our debt journey, I was so stressed out. I just wanted to be out of debt so badly. I just didn’t want to spend at all.

37:47 Dr. 50: And I wasn’t happy. And when we were debt-free, I still wasn’t happy. Now, we are on the FIRE path, FIRE journey. I just don’t want to be the same. I just want to enjoy a little bit more of my life. I just want to stop and breathe and enjoy every single day. I just don’t want to wait, because if you wait, you will feel depressed. And if you ever feel like it will never come. So yes, I take it easy and just live in the day. And that day will come before you know it.

Was the PhD Financially Worthwhile?

38:24 Emily: I’m really glad to hear you say that. That’s a message I need to hear. I need to hear that and be able to focus on living in the moment more and not striving. And I’m really glad to hear you say that because I know that some people in the FIRE movement do stay very caught up in the end goal. And even though sort of the philosophy around FIRE would be to be living in the moment both while you’re pursuing it and once you’ve achieved it, a lot of people do fall into just thinking about the future and living for the future and you know, not taking the time to enjoy the time they have at the moment, which is all we have. Right? Really. So, I’m really glad to hear that you’ve, based on your debt free journey, you’ve already learned that lesson. And you’re now, you know, beyond that and into still enjoying your life even while you’re pursuing FIRE. So, I’m really pleased to hear that. Do you think the PhD was financially worthwhile?

39:14 Dr. 50: Oh, yes. In my case, for me. For me, it was worthwhile. I am glad that I made the right decision to pursue a PhD because it’s opened so many doors for us. If I were working at my minimum wage job at a factory, or I was afraid to take the risk of not having any paycheck and then just went straight to grad school without any backup plan. We wouldn’t be here today. Yes. It was very worthwhile. Yeah.

Best Financial Advice for an Early-Career PhD

39:47 Emily: Yes. I can see that clearly from the story now. And so, Dr. 50, I conclude all my interviews by asking my guest what is your best financial advice for an early-career PhD? That could be something we’ve talked about already. It could be something completely different, but would you please share that with us?

40:04 Dr. 50: Yeah, sure. I say, from my past experience as a PhD graduate, you feel like, Oh my gosh, I have a PhD behind my name now. I make a ton of money. Even though it’s not a ton, I would say, it’s increased your income. My one piece of advice would be trying to live the same. Don’t let the life inflation get you. Because if you do that, it will be never enough. I mean, it’s how much you make, how advancing your career brings you. It will not be enough. You just, if you just keep inflating your lifestyle. I’m not saying that you should be conscious as a graduate student, but on the back of your mind, trying to do like other peers are doing. I’m not saying like, you should live this way, but yeah. Lifestyle inflation, it really hurts your financial life.

40:59 Emily: Yeah. And it definitely sounds like you were there, you did that for a little while. I like to say, don’t inflate your lifestyle, but increase your lifestyle. Increase it intentionally, mindfully. But don’t, yeah. Don’t just let it float up to, you know, whatever your salary is.

41:16 Dr. 50: Yes.

41:17 Emily: Yes. I love that advice. Thank you so much. Dr. 50, it’s been a real pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

41:22 Dr. 50: Oh, thank you so much. I’m glad to be here. And I’m so honored to be on this podcast. I am. I hope that my life lesson and experience will be helpful to you guys in some way, some small way. Thank you so much for having me here.

Listener Q&A: Financial Independence

41:42 Emily: Now on to the listener question and answer segment. Today’s question was asked in advance of a live webinar I gave recently for a university client. So, it is anonymous. Here is the question. Quote, can you start a journey to financial independence in grad school. End quote. Wow. It is awesome that this person is already thinking about long-term financial independence as a graduate student. The answer is, unequivocally, yes. In fact, if you’d like to think about it this way, you have already started your journey to financial independence in grad school, because you are making a long-term investment in your career, and presumably, your earning potential. While FIRE is achievable in theory by anyone, it’s definitely an easier road if you have a good salary. So, in that sense, if getting a graduate degree is going to put you on a road to a good salary, you’re already pursuing financial independence. Now, what can you do while you’re actually in graduate school to pursue financial independence?

42:46 Emily: No matter what your income, you can work on your mindset. You can learn more about personal finance. You can put strong habits into place, which you’ll definitely need during graduate school, like budgeting and frugality. Your income is always going to be rather low during grad school, but that’s not the only side of the equation when it comes to financial independence. Your expenses matter a lot as well. I would say, during this period of time, when your income is suppressed, you should take the time to master the controlling expenses side of the equation. But that’s not all. Even with a lower income during grad school, you can work on increasing your net worth. This is what I put a lot of focus on when I was in graduate school. Tactically, once you have your budget set up and hopefully a bit of free cashflow, you can put that towards saving, debt repayment, or investing, following, like I’ve talked about in recent weeks, the financial framework that I developed for PhDs.

43:43 Emily: Now, here’s one key concept that might not have occurred to you yet. While you’re in graduate school and you have this lower income, you also have a lower tax rate. Graduate students tend to, unless they’re married to someone with a much higher income, top out in the 12% federal marginal tax bracket or lower. And that means that it is a perfect time to use a Roth IRA for your retirement investments. Especially, again, if you anticipate a large income increase postgraduate school, this is probably the most optimal time in your life to be using a Roth IRA. And presumably it’s also the earliest investing you’ll do, so it has the longest timeline to compound and grow. People are crazy for the Roth IRA, and they will contribute even when they’re in incredibly high tax bracket. So, you really have, if you think about it, a great opportunity to be able to contribute to the Roth IRA without paying a high tax rate. And five years or so investing in a Roth IRA and then decades compounding after that, this will be a very big portion of your portfolio, ultimately, even if you don’t contribute in absolute numbers a lot of money during grad school. Thank you so much for this question, Anonymous, and I’m so glad to learn that you are already on your journey to financial independence. If you’d like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

45:18 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast, and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How a Boom-and-Bust Money Mindset from Grad School Serves This Start-Up Founder Well

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Lindy Ledohowski, a PhD in English, former tenure-track professor, and founder of the ed tech start-up EssayJack. Lindy describes the money mindset she developed as a college and graduate student while experiencing boom and bust cycles of income and budgeting for must-haves and investments in herself. Lindy narrates how her money mindset has been in concordance or not with how she’s generated income throughout her career, and how it is serving her well now as a start-up founder. She emphasizes that a safety net enables career risk and how she prefers to bet on herself rather than other financial instruments.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

money mindset PhD

Teaser

00:00 Lindy: Even that TA income that was more regular, certainly wasn’t enough to comfortably cover month to month costs. I’ve since read that you’re not supposed to spend something more than one third of your income on fixed housing costs and that was never my case. It was often I was spending anywhere from 60 to 90% of what monthly envelope was on just fixed costs.

Introduction

00:33 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode 15 and today my guest is Dr. Lindy Ledohowski, a PhD in English, former tenure track professor, and founder of the ed tech startup EssayJack. Lindy describes the money mindset she developed as a college and graduate student while experiencing boom and bust cycles of income and budgeting for must haves and investments in herself. Lindy narrates how her money mindset has been in concordance or not with how she’s generated income throughout her career, and how it is serving her well now, as a startup founder. She emphasizes that a safety net enables career risk and how she prefers to bet on herself rather than other financial instruments.

01:31 Emily: I’m recording this near the end of March shortly after finishing my 10th webinar for a university client in this month alone. That sets a record for my business in terms of speaking engagement density. I want to send a super sincere and heartfelt thank you to all of the people who have recommended me to their universities and other organizations, particularly in the past year. I shared with you last month that I really wasn’t sure how my business would fare when the pandemic started given that the revenue was so reliant on in-person speaking engagements, but between webinars, individual, and bulk purchases of my tax workshops and the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, my business has actually flourished in the past year, and especially this spring. I know that is in large part due to the recommendations of the graduate students and PhDs who listened to this podcast. I know that because the people who book me tell me so. I really, really appreciate you supporting me in this manner. I’m so happy to be able to provide this podcast to you for free, and it is possible thanks to the products and services I sell to universities and individuals.

Book Giveaway

02:42 Emily: Now it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In April, 2021, I’m giving away, one copy of “Walden on Wheels” by Ken Ilgunas, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for June, 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during April, we’ll have a chance to win a copy of this book. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of April, from all the entries you can find full [email protected]/podcast.

03:22 Emily: The podcast received review this week titled “Customized and Encouraging Info”: “I’ve been interested in personal finance for awhile, but a lot of advice from other sources doesn’t really apply to my unique situation as a graduate student. This podcast, and the online resources on filing taxes as a grad student on a fellowship have been so enlightening and useful/relatable in a way that other sources aren’t. They’ve also helped me to challenge my sometimes limiting mindset about money as a graduate student, and have helped me begin to save and invest more than I thought I’d be able to on my stipend. Definitely recommend for anyone grad school or thinking about entering grad school. This is really important info that we don’t get from our school/programs.”

04:04 Emily: Thank you so much for this review! This reviewer really gets what I’m doing with the podcast and business. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Lindy Ledohowski.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:22 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today. Dr. Lindy Ledohowski. She is the founder of EssayJack. She’s also a PhD. She’s a former faculty member — we’re going to find out all about that. When Lindy and I were preparing for this episode, we realized that she has a super interesting parallel story to her career story, which is the story of how her money mindset has served her very well in some of these stages, not so well in other stages. And it’s a little bit of an interesting flip on what we usually hear. A lot of times we talk about how money mindsets we develop in academia are harmful to our finances. Lindy has found the opposite of that. She’s found some concordance with her money mindset nurtured in graduate school with her success with finances later in life. We’re going to hear all about that. Lindy, thank you so much for joining me today. I’m really pleased to have you on. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

05:15 Lindy: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for that introduction. I am Dr. Lindy Ledohowski. I have an English PhD. Before I was an English professor at the university of Waterloo, I had been a high school English teacher. Then I left full-time teaching and founded, as you say, EssayJack, which is an ed tech software solution in the academic writing space.

Money Mindset in Young Adulthood

05:38 Emily: That’s fantastic. It’s obvious how your business grew out exactly of your career, so fascinating. We’ll get a little bit of that story today, but really I want to focus on this money mindset aspect. What was the money mindset that you were developing in your childhood early experiences with money in your young adulthood?

05:56 Lindy: It’s actually interesting looking back in hindsight, because you don’t know that you’re developing a money mindset when you’re in the middle of it. For me I think it’s best characterized as kind of a boom and bust. All throughout high school and then my undergrad, I certainly taught during the school year. I was a busser on weekends and then I was a waitress and then I would make the majority of my money that had to last throughout the school year in the summer months. When I was a high school student that was all day long babysitting, nine to five, whereas during the school year, it might be a couple of hours after school. And then similarly through undergrad, I relied very heavily on making a lot of tips and making all that money over a full-time summer working gig, and then during the academic year, I would scale back so I could focus on my full-time classes.

06:51 Lindy: That really gave me an approach to finances that was like, make as much as you can in as short a time as possible, and then budget that surplus over a long sort of drought period. That really started to get shaped for me in my teen years and then into my undergrad. I had my first job was as a paper route when I was 11, and then it was, as I say, babysitting, and then into the hospitality industry and customer service.

07:25 Emily: Now I can see how that kind of pattern, which I think is not uncommon for young adults and people who are still in their schooling years, but I can see how that pattern could divorce in your mind work from money in the sense that you’re doing a lot of work all the time, which is the work of being in school — the classes and so forth — but sometimes you’re not doing that kind of work and you’re doing the kind of work that makes money and that’s that period of intensity of earning the money and then spreading it out through the rest of the time. As an entrepreneur, I can see how that separation of what is work for money and what is work that just has to be done to further your general development, how that can help you later on, but you developed that early on while you were still in the cycle of the academic year.

08:11 Lindy: Yeah, absolutely. You put it really well that it made that separation between work and money. And then also I think it gave me a sense of budgeting through scarcity. And also I’m not really counting on financing for things because I very early was training myself to not think about, “Oh, I have a stable monthly salary, which I will then allocate for various purchases.” I always had to make a bunch of money and then buy the thing, whatever that thing is that I wanted.

Money Management and Budgeting Strategies through Scarcity

08:56 Emily: It’s so interesting that you use that term, budgeting through scarcity. And I think when we were prepping for this, you also use the term hoarding — hoarding money during the good times and eking it out during the leaner times to get through that. What kinds of strategies were you using during those early years? How did you budget for when your income was much lower or like zero versus when that income was much higher?

09:19 Lindy: One of the interesting things, and I don’t know if this is just my own personality traits, but as you focus on developing a money mindset unconsciously, in my case, what that meant is that I very quickly began to prioritize the “must haves” and the “nice to haves” for me. I was never, for instance, really into like clothes or fashion. That wasn’t my thing. I also had an older sister whose best friend was really into fashion, so from the two of them, I could inherit hand me downs and that was more than enough for me. I don’t know if I’m particularly stylish, so I didn’t need to color my hair or all that. Those kinds of things became “nice to have” for me and even in a time when my bank account was very flush, I still never ran out and bought a bunch of clothes or did my hair or things like that.

10:15 Lindy: Whereas, books were always my passion and I could justify also spending some of that money on books because I would think of them as a longer-term investment in my intellectual future. Even if I was buying books as a high school or undergrad student, I always knew that I was going to sort of go on and do more. I loved books and that was sort of investing in myself. Similarly for me a must have, would be say traveling. Interestingly, I had a conversation with my then boyfriend as an undergrad because his attitude towards money was to invest it in financial investments. Whereas if I had a little bit extra, I’d budget a backpacking trip and I always thought, well, I’m investing in myself and how my brain is going to be broadened by different perspectives. I think that came into play in terms of creating a hierarchy of, if I have limited funds in that hoarding and scarcity time, what will I spend it on and what won’t I spend it on?

11:22 Emily: I’m so glad you gave us that insight, because first of all, I’m glad to hear that your “must haves” were not literally just like food and shelter. Of course you took care of that, but had added onto that what you considered to be investments. And it’s so interesting that you were thinking about them that way, even that early on, because as I said earlier, obviously your career has evolved in such a way that probably all those experiences, the books, especially, did contribute to ultimately like your founding of your company and everything. I don’t think that many people at that age think about investing in themselves in those ways, but you did.

12:00 Lindy: I think maybe that’s a personality quirk of my own, or maybe my good fortune. And speaking of good fortune, as you mentioned, I did have a place to live. During my undergrad, I lived at home. The deal with my parents was that I could live at home rent free and so I need to flag that because that’s just a tidbit of good fortune on my part that not everybody shares. Again, back when I was doing undergrad, so that was in the nineties, I was able to make enough money waitressing and saving my tips over the summer that I could afford tuition. And again, that’s a very different financial reality than what people are facing today. That kind of make it all and then put it into your tuition, buy books, and then also the fact that I did have that family help, means that I had a bit of a buffer and it’s fair to recognize that little bit of a buffer that I certainly had.

13:00 Emily: Absolutely. It sounds also then that you didn’t take out debt, at least you haven’t mentioned it so far during those undergrad years.

13:07 Lindy: No, no. And that was actually what the conversation was with that then boyfriend, because he and his parents took out student loans and then he and his parents had a plan for investing that money and making money on the student loans and all that. It was very sophisticated in a way that I didn’t have with my family at all. We didn’t really talk about finances in any sort of concrete way, aside from the “we love you and if you need help, we’ll help you” kind of way, which again, I’m lucky that I had people in my corner, but it wasn’t like a sophisticated financial education in those early days.

13:47 Lindy: In my young twenties, then that boyfriend, and he was the first boy I lived with, we then had to talk about those finances in terms of how we split things up financially in a shared housing. I was really sort of dumbfounded to know that he had this whole other financial reality based on the availability of student loan debt at the time, whereas I just had the neither a borrower nor a lender be. And so if I didn’t have the money, I didn’t spend it, was kind of my approach at the time.

14:23 Emily: Yeah. I like your simpler approach. For the record, for anyone who’s listening, please don’t take out student loans just to invest the money. I do not endorse this approach. It is something I’ve been asked about from time to time and it’s very risky, very, very risky. I’ll just put it that way.

14:39 Emily: That was some of the strategies you were using. What about budgeting at that time? Did you have any particular way that you were doing it, or you just found this sort of natural rhythm of your spending?

14:48 Lindy: A couple of ways. One, I definitely found a kind of natural rhythm to the spending, which is you don’t spend very much and then whatever you have leftover is the surplus for travel or for something else. After my undergrad degree where I was living at home, then I did have a proper job that had a salary and the deal with my parents was I could have one more year at home rent free, so I could sort of get on my feet. I used that to again, sort of boom and bust, to hoard that income so that I could then go and do another degree, and that was my education degree. I was more conscious of budgeting at that time, because I had a really specific target. I want to do a bachelor of education degree. I know that I’m going to have to, at that point, move away, pay for housing, pay for tuition, sort of figure out all of that. I did have a spreadsheet and tracked things, and then once I had a couple of months of the spreadsheet, I could then sort of see, okay, well, typically this is how much I spend on a given month. If I go over that, that’s a problem. And then if I can be competitive with myself and get under that, then that’s great.

16:06 Emily: I see. So you actually had a little like gamification element kind of going on.

16:10 Lindy: Yeah, absolutely. Like self gamification. It was like, can I go lower?

Income Changes and Money Mindset During Graduate School

16:16 Emily: Yeah. And so we’re kind of talking about you mentioned a second bachelor’s degree, but then of course, at some point you went into graduate school and got your PhD as well. Can you talk about how this money mindset served you or didn’t serve you during that time?

16:31 Lindy: As I just mentioned, after the undergrad, then I worked and saved money, did the education degree. Then I worked as a teacher and saved money so that I can go to graduate school. I did a master’s, which was unfunded and then the PhD, which was fully funded. I went straight through for that and I did borrow some money from my dad, at the time to do that unfunded masters, but I had a chunk saved from my education degree. That money mindedness meant that as I went through, one of the things for sure, when I was contemplating a PhD after the masters, and I really loved my master’s degree, which is what made me want to continue on and do doctoral work. But one of the absolute deal breakers was it had to be fully funded and it had to be significantly, fully funded. Not all fully funded PhDs are fully funded equally.

17:29 Lindy: I knew that any university would happily take me as a PhD if I was going to be willing to pay them, but it would be a real vote of confidence if they said, yes, we will take you, and here’s the financial commitment we’re making towards you and your success. I think the fact that was a real must have for me in the application process for the PhD came out of that money mindset that had been developing along the way.

17:58 Lindy: And then in the PhD, similarly, there’s these funding cycles. You apply for grants and scholarships and all of that at one time of the year and then it ups your funding for the subsequent years of the PhD. had five years of guaranteed funding from the university, and I immediately then upped that by various kind of scholarships and grants. And again, then was able to sort of dole out the month by month stuff when I would get a big stipend or a big award in September or January, and then make it last for the subsequent term and semester and top up. I did also do some teaching and TA work and again, that was paid more regularly, so I at least had the combination of some TA work that was paid regularly and then grants and scholarships and fellowships that came in these lump sums.

18:48 Emily: Yeah, so a combination of regular income, irregular income, larger sums, and I really liked that you pointed out the grant cycle and the fellowship applications and all of that, because that’s another example of how you work, like on an application, it’s not immediately for money, but some percentage of them presumably will work out and you can have this cash influx based on that later. For you, I think it was just probably grooving in even further, again, this boom and bust cycle and all the things that you’ve mentioned so far and work not being directly for pay, but sort of indirectly for pay later on.

19:26 Emily: Is there anything else you want to say about those grad school years? How did you come out of them financially? It sounds like you maybe were making a decent amount of money with all these sources combined.

19:37 Lindy: Yeah. Interestingly, I made more money as a grad student than I did as a high school teacher, to be quite honest. And part of that again has to do with taxation, so certain grants and fellowships and scholarships, aren’t taxable in the same way that a teaching income is fully taxed as regular income

19:57 Emily: Actually, we’ll note, because we haven’t said so far, but you’re in Canada. Actually, no, you mentioned the university name, so we know you’re in Canada. But yes, different situation in the States.

20:04 Lindy: Yeah, I was going to say, anything I say about taxes will be specific to the Canadian context. My schooling was in Canada and then my work life has also been principally in Canada. There were certain kind of tax benefits to the way that the graduate funding was set up. Everybody sort of jokes about being a starving student and I still was, but I was less starving as a PhD student than I had been as a full-time school teacher. And again, that’s just because you know, it was early days and I hadn’t sort of stuck with teaching long enough to go up the ranks or anything like that.

20:44 Lindy: The only thing that I will certainly say about my PhD experience from a financial perspective is that even that TA income that was more regular, certainly wasn’t enough to comfortably cover month to month costs. I’ve since read that you’re not supposed to spend more than one third of your income on fixed housing costs. That was never my case. It was often I was spending anywhere from 60 to 90% of what a monthly envelope was on just fixed costs. I got very good at going to every single free wine and cheese on campus and getting food. Any holiday party anybody would in invite me to. I ate a lot of canned goods and pasta, and so if I was invited to somebody’s house, it would be the produce that I’d be eating because that you couldn’t sort of buy in bulk at the beginning of the semester and have it last, whereas you can buy cans of tuna and that’ll last. That gives you a bit of a color on that PhD experience.

21:57 Emily: It also does for you and your budgeting method, I guess. Knowing that you have money in the bank, but eating this way, being this frugal and so forth, knowing that you have to make it last until the next influx comes in. I do think that gives us a good picture.

Post PhD Salary: How Having Steady Cashflow Changed the Money Mindset

22:12 Emily: Now, after your PhD, you had regular employment. You had a salary, maybe not for the first time, but maybe in a different way than you had before in your life. Tell us about that period when you were a professor.

22:26 Lindy: After my PhD, I did a post-doctoral fellowship and again, that was much the same as, as the PhD in terms of lump sums of money. Then I became a tenure track professor. That had full benefits, full salary, all of those sorts of wonderful things. But interestingly, at that point I was then married. My husband is an academic and we had jobs in different cities. And so again, the budgeting became sort of weird because we were now using our two regular salaries to spend on the monthly costs of running two homes. We had two apartments in two different cities and traveling back and forth. Then any surplus I had was on driving or flying to be in the same city as my spouse. However, what I did find in that because that was our experience, I was well-suited to continuing a bit of that boom and bust and spend the money that was surplus on travel to see my spouse.

23:26 Lindy: What was interesting for me is at the time banks were only too willing to give us financing. because we were in two different cities, I had an old 15 year old car, we were going to sell that and buy a new car so that I could safely drive on the highway. And the dealership is like “we can give you this kind of financing because you’re both professors” and I was really uncomfortable with that. We were like, “well, we have our savings, let’s just buy the car.” In hindsight, I don’t know that that was the smartest decision given that cars are depreciating assets.

24:02 Lindy: But again, at the time I was very uncomfortable with this idea of taking on something that was a month to month to month debt, because I hadn’t built up my trust in the system that money would be there month to month to month in the way that I think if you start working at a regular job early and have that continuity over time, you start to have faith that, yeah, even though you might run out of money by the 30th of the month, it rolls over and new money comes in. I, temperamentally, didn’t feel that that was the case, even though, obviously as a professor, that is the case.

24:41 Lindy: So as I say, we made the choice to buy the car outright and again, hoard all of our money and live cheaply in the hopes that we could then save up for a down payment. That’s kind of how that money mindedness — the boom and bust, the hoarding — carried over into the academic job when we were both professors and seemingly could have had a much more regular financial life. We still kind of didn’t.

25:06 Emily: I’m so glad you pointed that out because really we’re talking about whatever it was 10, 15, maybe close to 20 years of this boom and bust cycle developed by the type of income you have with maybe some periodic, yes, you had some regular income, but it was never as much compared to that irregular income. I can totally understand why you didn’t immediately have trust that the salary is going to keep coming in and so forth.

Commercial

25:31 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. The federal annual tax filing deadline was extended to May 17th, 2021, but the federal estimated tax due date remains April 15th, 2021. This is the perfect time of year to evaluate the income tax due on your fellowship or training grant stipend. Filling out the estimated tax worksheet and form 1040ES will tell you how much you can expect your tax liability to be this year and whether you are required to pay estimated tax. Whether you’re required to pay throughout the year or not, I suggest that you start saving for your ultimate tax bill from each paycheck in a dedicated savings account. If you need some help with the estimated tax worksheet, or want to ask me a question, please join my workshop, quarterly estimated tax for fellowship recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers common questions that postbaccs, grad students, and postdocs have about estimate tax, such as what to do when you switch on or off a fellowship in the middle of a calendar year. Go to pfforphds.com/QETax to learn more about and join the workshop. Now, back to our interview.

Transitioning to Entrepreneurship

26L49 Emily: So you’re going along, you have your salary job and everything, but at some point you become inspired to start your company. I’d like for you to talk about the financial aspects of that transition — did you prepare financially before jumping into self-employment or were you already prepared based on the way that you were living? Or these kinds of insights?

27:10 Lindy: Before starting the company that I now head up, which is EssatJack, and that’s an ed tech software solution, I did a couple of years of consulting. So between being a professor and starting a tech startup, I was like, “okay, this living in two cities as two professors is untenable. All of the money that we’re making, we’re spending to rent two apartments or to travel back and forth to see each other, and I just don’t see this being a sustainable future for us. Something’s got to give, and the something that’s got to give is I’ll give up this job and figure out what comes next.

27:45 Lindy: I was very lucky. Again, I secured a grant — this is apparently just how I roll. I get the chunk of money and then decide what to do with it. So I secured a grant which gave me the confidence to take a year’s no pay leave from my job as a professor, as a kind of get the first toe in the water of quitting without actually quitting first. I had this grant, I was working on a conference in a symposium and ultimately it then became a book. But what I also did during that time was I started consulting. I started taking consulting projects just to see what can I do and then that gave me a certain confidence in being able to charge for my services.

28:27 Lindy: You made a really good point earlier on in the podcast about how my mindset divorced labor from financial remuneration, which I think is absolutely spot on. The time as a consultant remarried those two things together for me, because it made it very clear that my time was worth money, so I had to a, charge appropriately for it and not do free work on the gamble that it would pay off later in the way that say applying for grants and things like that is that kind of a gamble. Secondly, I also ran into like a scalability problem. There are only so many hours in the day that as a single sole proprietor consultant, you can work. At some point you max out and you can’t charge for 27 hours a day worth of work. That was ultimately how I got to the end of my time as a consultant is that I just sort of was like, there’s more work than hours in the day for me to do it, so I need to now start thinking about what’s the next step? Do I grow out the consultancy or do I think of something else? That’s kind of how that money mindset of the boom and bust carried over into consulting and I really did have to change my approach to labor and finance and more closely see every minute I worked as having to be worth money.

29:56 Emily: Yeah, I see. You had in that narrative that you didn’t officially leave your job, but you took unpaid leave for a year, testing the waters, after securing a grant as well. I’m wondering, obviously I think anyone can see that your life at that time with your husband was untenable, that’s not a long-term solution, but I think a lot of other people still in the face of something like that of there’s this really big thing about my job that’s unsatisfactory, they still stay in it maybe longer than you did. I would like for you to just speak briefly about this transition and how you decided to do that unpaid leave versus just leaving it right away. Did that make it easier taking the half step out? And also, is there anything that you wish you had done differently in that transition from the full-time position to the consulting?

30:48 Lindy: I think the first part of the answer is profoundly gendered. Many female professionals in the Academy and other professional fields find their careers just taking off at the time where they biologically, if they want to have children, they have to. That’s the window, you kind of have to do it. And that was the case for me. I was in my early thirties as a professor and my husband and I, we hadn’t yet decided whether or not we had wanted kids. It had always been like a “maybe one day kind of conversation. But being professors in two different cities and the ages that we were made it very important for us to get some clarity around, well, do we even want to have a family because if we do, that’s something that we’re really going to have to get on sooner rather than later. What came out of that conversation was the recognition that while we still didn’t know if we wanted kids or not, we knew that we didn’t want that decision to be made by circumstance. We didn’t want to fall into not having kids because we lived in two different cities and couldn’t figure out how to do it in that context, in a way that would make us both happy and satisfied as parents or as a family. That I think helped because it was like, well, this is a huge life decision and it could happen to us by circumstance and you can never know what that feeling is going to be like down the road, if you regret it. And I certainly didn’t want to be in that situation.

32:28 Lindy: Taking the leave kind of helped, as I say, sort of give me the confidence that I could actually make money outside of the Academy, which was my big fear. I was like, “Well, this is what I know. This is what I’m good at. This is what I can do. And I like it and all the rest of it.” Being able to sort of throw my hat over the fence, so to speak, as a metaphor for then you got to go in and get your hat, meant that I then began to feel confident that I could pitch for consulting gigs. I could get them. I could do the work. It could be rewarding. I could get paid. And then that also gave us the opportunity to live in the same city, to think about whether or not we wanted a family. In the end we decided we didn’t want kids. We have a cat. She’s amazing. But I’m very happy with that because it was a choice that we made as opposed to one day we woke up and realized that that that window had closed. So that, I think, as I say, the first part of that answer is a profoundly gendered answer.

Money Management Shifts during Self-Employment

33:28 Emily: What I found really interesting in there is that, okay, so you’ve, you stated that this period of consultancy, tied your time and earning back together. Your husband during that time, I think still was salaried. Is that right? So you still had that part of your finances was salaried. How did that change your money management or did it? Were you starting to trust the salary system or were you still like hoarding and then making these investments?

33:58 Lindy: I was definitely still hoarding. As soon as I left my job as a professor and started as a consultant, I definitely got back into the hoarding mindset, partially because as a consultant, it is also very boom and bust. You have periods of intense work and then periods where you don’t necessarily have the work or you’re calling around and trying to get work, so you need to kind of have enough that you’re carrying yourself through the lean times. Particularly at the beginning, you have no confidence that the lean time will end. You do one job and then it’s lean time and you think, Oh my God, I’m never going to make money again. And then you get another job. And then over time, you start to feel a bit more confident that even in a moment when there happens to be a break, that that’s temporary, but it takes a while to sort of get through that. And every time there’s a bit of a break or a lull in projects, at least for me, I was like, “Oh my God, I’ll never work again and I’m a failure and this is terrible and I’m never going to make any money.” I certainly hoarded quite a fair bit.

35:06 Lindy: And then again, because we didn’t know in the early days, did we want to have kids? I wasn’t paying into any benefits package at that point as a consultant, I was just myself. I knew there’d be no maternity leave, so whatever the next step was going to be, I needed to make sure that we had saved and had a buffer. And again, just as I flagged, my early years, I was very lucky to have family support. I had a home where I could live and, and there were financial resources there to support me, as an adult I was very lucky to have a spouse who had a full-time job. Again, I’ve had the ability to take probably some greater risks because of that backstop.

35:56 Lindy: Other people who are in similar situations to me may also think about one person covering the costs and one person taking the risks, because I think that’s a reasonable way for two people in a financial partnership, a marriage, to plan things out. My dad always said, if you can live on 50% of what you make, so one person’s salary and bank the other, you get much farther ahead than if you spend a hundred percent, month to month to month. Again, the finances of dad, the boomer generation are obviously different from us, but I did have that message in the back of my mind for sure.

36:40 Emily: Yeah. That is a really interesting way to put it and quite true that a safety net is maybe not strictly necessary, but can make it easier and more psychologically palatable to take a risk like that.

36:55 Emily: Okay, now you’re in this period of you did this consulting work for a while, but you mentioned earlier that you wanted to scale, ultimately, and so that’s where the business, the software solution comes in. Also, to today, is your husband still in that academic position?

37:09 Lindy: Yeah. He’s still a full-time tenured law professor and he loves it, and will probably continue doing it until one day he’ll be an emeritus professor, I think.

Interplay Between Lindy’s Money Mindset and Entrepreneurship

37:22 Emily: Okay. Another question we have here is after doing the consulting and starting the business, did you start to realize that there were some mismatches between your financial mindset and how the system worked? We talked about the system of being a salaried employee earlier in terms of your employer, but what about the system of, as you mentioned earlier of financing for instance, or you’ve also brought up taxes?

37:46 Lindy: Yeah, so really interestingly, as I say, as a consultant, I was doing that hoarding. Initially because it was like, well, maybe if we want to have a kid, we want to have a buffer. And then there were also things like, well, maybe we want to buy a house, so we need a down payment. And then as I started to think, okay, well, let’s get away from a service-based business and start thinking about a product-based business, we know we’re going to need to have some savings to put into that. All of those considerations required having some kind of chunk of money to allocate towards them.

38:19 Lindy: Then it was as we started to refine those things — okay, now we’re going to buy a house. We thought we were in such a great position because neither of us have student loan debts, we have some savings. Then when we started house hunting, we realized actually what we could afford was kind of not what we thought we wanted, so that was a bit of an eye opener to realize that while we, I think very blithely and naively thought, “Oh, well, we’re sort of trundling towards a middle-class life,” we weren’t, and that was surprising. The houses we saw in the neighborhood we were looking at, which we thought were standard middle-class-y, “this is us”, we’re utterly priced out of that. That again was one of those moments where I was like, well, I need to work a lot harder and save a lot more money so that we can sort of buy a nice house or whatever the case may be.

39:17 Emily: To clarify there, was it that you weren’t making enough money to afford that kind of house or was it that the lending system didn’t recognize your income as contributing towards a mortgage of the size needed?

39:30 Lindy: It was essentially that the mortgage that we needed to secure would be based on my husband’s income, not mine, because I didn’t have…and again, you need say as a consultant, self-employed, you need years of income that you can then show and they still only take a percentage of that, that they count towards your overall income to debt ratio. That meant we were in a much smaller position. The only way to up that was we had to make and save more money, so that even though the overall borrowing amount, the debt amount would remain the same, we’d have a bigger down payment, and so the actual house purchase increased. So we paused that house hunt and I scurried around and tried to make a bunch more money so that we could have more. That’s what got us thinking and that carried over into, we were like, “Hey, I need to move from a service based business to a product based business.”

40:35 Lindy: It got me thinking about income to debt ratios in a way that was entirely new and my money mindset, which is very boom and bust is helpful. Particularly now in sort of tech and startup, you may have to spend a fair bit of money at the beginning to build the thing before the thing that you’re building is actually going to start generating revenue. There’s a chunk of time where you’re spending money, but not making any because you haven’t built the thing yet. But it also got me into dealing with traditional lending institutions. In a tech company, there is no collateral. If I want to start a restaurant, I go to a bank and I have the business plan and I’m like, “okay, I want to borrow some money and either rent this restaurant or buy this restaurant or whatever,” and there’s stuff that the bank can take back if that business fails.

41:31 Lindy: Whereas if I say, okay, here’s my business plan, here’s the product I want to build, it’s this technological product and it’s going to be built in the cloud. There is no hard good. There’s nothing a bank can take, it’s all intellectual property. While there’s a lot of value in that intellectual property, it’s not value that somebody else really can monetize in your absence. I was kind of naive about that. I thought, “Oh, well, you know, we’re building this thing. There’s this need, both educators and students need help with academic writing and there are essay mills out there where people are plagiarizing and cheating, and we are actually providing a real viable, technical solution that’s pedagogically sound, that’s built by a couple of professors, all of that. But it means that you can’t necessarily go to banks and get that funded, unless you’re willing to say, “Oh, and you can take my house if this fails.” It’s really sort of getting comfortable with a fair degree of financial risk.

42:38 Emily: I’m thinking this is where venture capital comes in. Is that something you have pursued or are pursuing?

42:44 Lindy: Yeah. We’re right now in the middle of a financing raid. We held off on venture capital for a very, very long time. We had revenues and savings and bootstraps and friends and family and loans and any grants. As I say, I’m the queen of getting grants. Any kind of, um, funding we could get without external investors in the early days, that’s what we pursued. VCs can be fantastic, but there’s also a risk in the sense that if you get them in too early, they are driving a particular business model for your business, and for us, in the early days, I wasn’t sure exactly what our business model is. Academic writing — is that something that’s going to go viral? Do we want it to go viral? Or is it going to be like a meat and potatoes business where you sign up, you get a subscription, it serves your needs while you’re a student writer, and then you move on to the rest of your life, being able to think and write critically because of the skills that you’ve learned. Or do we need to lock you in like Facebook and keep you forever?

43:52 Lindy: I was very wary of inviting other people into the company early on, lest they derail what is…My passion is to create an ethical business that is viable and that provides a real solution and isn’t a gimmick, and isn’t just out there to steal user’s data and sell it to the highest bidder. But of course, many VCs, that’s what they’re looking for. In the early days, I felt our bargaining power would be quite low, because it’d be like, “here’s my idea” and they’d be like, “well, your idea is unproven.” Whereas now, as we’re going out to investors, like, “okay, we’re selling all over the world. We have schools, colleges, and universities. We have individual subscribers. We’ve won a bunch of awards.” We’re in a much more solid position to then say, “Do you VC want to be part of this journey?” As opposed to “do you want to derail and take over the journey yourself?”

44:58 Emily: So fascinating. I’m so glad you gave us that insight. I’m sure there are probably many people in the audience who are thinking in their futures that maybe, VC or startups could be part of that. I’m really excited that you shared that.

Investing in Yourself as a Way of Financial Growth

45:10 Emily: Is there anything else that you want to add about your money mindset that you’ve been developing all these years and your financial life as a founder that we haven’t covered already?

45:19 Lindy: The only thing that I would add is that I think I have been able to take sort of a fair degree of, and I mean, it’s calculated risk, but my calculated risks are always to invest in myself. At earlier times where it was like, I’ll put the time and energy into this grant or this application, now as a startup founder, it’s “I will put the time into developing this content or this product, or pitch decks or financial business models that I’m going to present to lending institutions.” All of that work, which now again, is sort of decoupled from payment in a very specific way. I’m back in the realm where I do a bunch of stuff, and I’m betting that it will pay off in the end. And so being able to do that has always been I’m betting on myself. I’m assuming that if I put any chunk of money I have in a financial institution savings vehicle, that I’ll make small percentages. Whereas if I invest in myself, what I’m gambling on is that I’ll be able to make multiples on that investment. That has developed over time, as I’ve started to think, well, I have the personality type, I’d rather be the one trying really hard, than just handing my money over to the bank and letting an account manager invest in various funds, and I have no insight or understanding on how those work. I’m not a trained financial analyst. I still don’t understand money markets with that degree of specificity. And if I wanted to invest in that, I’d need to then rely on somebody else. Whereas if I invest in myself, I rely on myself. If I take a day off, then that’s my fault if I screw up. Whereas if I work really hard and produce results, I’m the one who benefits from that. That’s the final that I would say, is that I certainly have had to develop the confidence in myself to then bet on myself.

47:35 Emily: Yeah, this is so fascinating. And it is a very different approach from my financial approach, so I’m so glad to have your perspective on the podcast as well, because again, I think this is going to resonate with a certain slice of the audience who wants to be or is the type of entrepreneur that you are. This is really going to resonate with them. And you know, what some other people might be listening and say, I don’t want the life that Lindy has. It’s not for me. I want that salary.

48:00 Lindy: Exactly. That’s the thing that’s so clear is that if you’re going to leave the Academy or leave a stable job, I think you do need to know. If a must have is financial stability and security, then certainly don’t become an entrepreneur. If say you have the backstop of either you’ve got family money or in my case, a spouse with a job or something like that, and you have the sort of weirdo seemingly risk-taker, roll the dice kind of personality, then I think entrepreneurship is really exciting because the relationship between whether you do a good job or not is absolutely connected. Not in a day to day “did I get paid today for my work,” but in the big macro picture. The market, the world at large will tell you whether you did a good job or not.

48:54 Emily: Yes, absolutely. Well, Lindy this has been such a fascinating conversation. One, can you tell people where they can find you, where they can find EssayJack and so forth?

49:04 Lindy: Yeah, so EssayJack is essayjack.com, and then on Twitter and Instagram, it’s @essayjack. For me, I’m @DoctorLindy on both Twitter and Instagram. On Instagram, you’ll just see pictures of my cat, but you’re more than welcome to find me there. And then both on LinkedIn as well.

Best Financial Advice for an Early Career PhD

49:26 Emily: Yeah. Great. And the question that I ask all my guests at the conclusion of our interviews is what is your best financial advice for another early PhD? It can be an emphasis of something that we’ve already touched on in the interview, or it can be something completely different.

49:39 Lindy: The best bit of advice is honestly to keep your debt load as low as possible, like consumer debt load. Ideally at zero, but as low as you possibly can because ultimately if you’re starting from a level position and then earning onwards, whether it’s with a stable job or entrepreneurship, you’re already in the positives going upwards. If you’re already in debt, it is just so hard to start digging your way out. So as much as you can minimize that, that would be my key advice. Learn how to get hand-me-down clothes from your older sister.

50:20 Emily: Yes. I totally totally agree, especially, gosh, for people who are in graduate school and have that lower income. If you have the option to not obligate that future income, please avoid it whenever possible. I totally agree. Well, Lindy, thank you so much for giving us this interview. It was a real pleasure to talk with you and I’m sure the audience found this absolutely fascinating as I did.

50:39 Lindy: It was really great to chat through all of this with you. You unearth things that I’m not aware that I think until I say it.

Listener Q&A: Investing on a Living Wage

Question

50:51 Emily: Now onto the listener question and answer segment today’s question was asked in advance of a live webinar I gave recently for a university client, so it is anonymous. Here is the question: “How much should I invest if I make a living wage?”

Answer

51:08 Emily: Back in season eight, episode seven, I answered a simpler version of this question, which was” what percent of income should be used for investment? In that answer, I gave my overall ideas about what percentage of your gross income should be used to invest for retirement. Now this question specifies that the person makes a living wage. So does my general answer from the previous question change at all, knowing that this person makes a living wage?

51:37 Emily: Living wage is sort of a general term, but I like to refer to the living wage database from MIT, livingwage.mit.edu. That living wage is calculated by looking at how much money a single person or a family spends on average in a variety of different necessary budgeting categories.

51:58 Emily: Let’s say you’re a single person and you’re earning the living wage for a single person in some given area of the country. What that means is that if you are an average spender across all of these different categories, you would not spend any of your wage on discretionary expenses or saving. All of it would go towards those necessary expenses.

52:21 Emily: The first way I can answer this question is if you’re only making a living wage, it’s okay if you’re not investing, I mean, of course I want you to be investing or saving or working on debt repayment or whatever your goal is, but given how much you’re being paid and how much the cost of living is in your area, that may not be feasible for you. I want you to give yourself some grace, if you are not able to invest right now, or you’re not able to invest as much as I talked about in that previous answer.

52:50 Emily: Now, let’s go a step deeper with this. I just mentioned that the living wage is based on averages. You do not have to spend an average amount of money in these various categories. The big, big one that goes into this is on housing expense, so again, if you’re a single person, the living wage calculator that I referenced assumes that you will live on your own. Just by making the one choice to live with a flatmate, instead of by yourself, you’ve already radically reduced your spending compared to what the living wage thinks you should be spending in probably your biggest expense area, overall. That one choice alone, even if you’re average in every other category might free up enough money for you to be able to spend on some discretionary expenses and start investing.

53:39 Emily: You don’t have to do this just with housing. In every one of these necessary expense categories that go into the living wage, you can strive to spend below that level. And if you did that across all these areas, you would free up quite a bit of cash flow to go towards other financial purposes. So that’s my answer. If you are making a living wage, you “should” be investing anywhere from 0% up to the amounts I talked about in that previous answer of 10% of your gross income, 15 or 20% of your gross income, depending on your age when you start investing.

54:13 Emily: But I want to leave you with one final thought, which is have a plan to make more than the living wage. Whether that is by finish up your graduate program and moving on to a postdoc or another type of job. Whether that’s increasing your income in some other way in the meantime, before you can make that career leap, earning more is the other way to circumvent this problem on investing when you only make a living wage.

54:38 Emily: Thank you so much to anonymous for submitting this question. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

54:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest, and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list serve, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt, repayment and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe through that list. You’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. Music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC podcast, editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.