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This Muslim Graduate Student Found Halal Investing and Now Teaches It to Her Family and Friends

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In this episode, Emily interviews Joumana Altallal, a Muslim graduate student at the University of Michigan. Joumana began investigating personal finance in the summer before she started graduate school to prepare to manage her stipend. In just her first year on a stipend, she has saved a full emergency fund, established credit, and funded a Roth IRA. Joumana shares what she’s learned about Halal investing, a strain of socially responsible investing for Muslims that has become much more accessible in recent years with the rise of robo-investing. Joumana’s enthusiasm for personal finance and halal investing, in particular, has spilled into her relationships with her family and friends. At the end of the episode, she gives a wonderful articulation of the role her finances play in the world.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Halal investing Muslim grad student

Teaser

00:00 Joumana: I think taking a halal approach to investing and saving money is always really grounding for me in that it acts as this constant reminder, that at the end of the day, my finances are meant to serve an ethical role in the world. So, they’re not just a fulfillment for my own needs and desires, but that they also function in this greater, sort of just way in the world.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 13, and today my guest is Joumana Altallal, a Muslim graduate student at the University of Michigan. Joumana began investigating personal finance in the summer before she started graduate school to prepare to manage her stipend. In just her first year on a stipend, she has saved a full emergency fund, established credit, and funded a Roth IRA. Joumana shares what she’s learned about halal investing, a strain of socially responsible investing for Muslims that has become much more accessible in recent years with the rise of robo-investing. Joumana’s enthusiasm for personal finance and halal investing in particular has spilled into her relationships with her family and friends. You won’t want to miss her wonderful articulation of the role her finances play in the world. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Joumana Altallal.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:28 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Joumana Altallal. She is a current graduate student and also a Muslim graduate student. So, we’re going to be talking about a particular version of socially responsible investing today, which is halal investing. So, Joumana, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. And will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

01:49 Joumana: Hi, Emily. Thanks for having me today. My name is Joumana Altallal. I’m a second-year master of fine arts student in poetry at the University of Michigan. My family and I immigrated to the U.S. In 2003 and were resettled in Charlottesville, Virginia. So, that’s actually where I grew up since I was about six years old. And I would say my journey with personal finance has definitely been informed by my identity as both a refugee and a Muslim.

02:17 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. And tell us where you are now and what you’re studying.

02:21 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. So, I’m at the University of Michigan at the Helen Zell Writers’ Program. So, it’s a creative writing program that is two years with a fellowship year third year. I am a poet, so I’m spending all of my time in writing workshops

02:37 Emily: Sounds fantastic. And you and I actually met when I was speaking at the University of Michigan in 2019, I guess it was, right?

02:46 Joumana: Yeah.

Personal Finance Journey

02:46 Emily: Yeah. So, I met in person, actually, you came up to me with this question about this particular version of investing, and I said, “I have no idea about that. Will you please come on the podcast and teach me and my audience about this?” So, I’m really happy to have you on today to talk more about that. So, kind of first step, more like background stuff before we get to that particular topic. So, what have you been learning about personal finance and also applying since you started graduate school?

03:15 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. So, I actually came to graduate school immediately from undergrad. So, I didn’t have much experience budgeting or tracking money in a sort of systematic way before. And although I’d been obviously working throughout high school and college, I was still primarily supported by my parents. So, my financial decisions were definitely limited in that scope. But my interest in personal finance kind of grew out of a hobby that I had. The summer before moving for grad school, I was kind of introduced to the financial independence and early retirement movement through Reddit forums of all places. And I found myself sort of accidentally spending a lot of time reading people’s posts and advice to each other. So, I think part of what’s so great about personal finance forums, I guess, is that they don’t really assume a starting place for anyone, which was really helpful for me. You can ask questions as a beginner or share advice on an experience that you just went through. So, as someone coming from like an immigrant background, I saw my parents really struggle with understanding what things like 401ks were even. And I believe a huge part of that is because workplaces don’t use accessible language to really explain what these investment opportunities are. So, a huge group of people end up being like absolutely excluded from personal finance conversations despite having a right to them.

Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE)

04:49 Emily: So, I love that you were sort of introduced to personal finance inspired by the FIRE movement, something I’ve also been kind of getting into recently. FIRE, Financial Independence and [Retire Early]. I’ve actually done a couple, a pair of interviews with a PhD who’s pursuing FIRE in season three of the podcast. So, if people want to check that out, we’ll link that from the show notes. And also some of my other guests have sort of incidentally mentioned being inspired by the movement as well. Would you say that you are pursuing FIRE or going to be pursuing FIRE, maybe once you’re done with graduate school? Or are you just like, “No, I’m just using some of the principles for like general personal finance stuff”?

05:27 Joumana: I think right now I’m using the general principles for personal finance. It feels a little scary to say that I’m pursuing FIRE as a 22-year-old grad student. But that is absolutely something that I would love to one day be a little more stringent in following.

05:45 Emily: Yeah. So, for listeners who aren’t yet familiar or haven’t listened to the other podcasts on the subject. I think the reason why, you know, Joumana and I do not say we’re part of the FIRE movement is probably because we do not have savings rates that top 50% of our income, which is not a requirement to be part of the movement, but definitely something that many people within the movement do. And that’s how you get that, you know, really fast acceleration towards retirement. So, very difficult to carry out that particular aspect of it on a grad student kind of salary, but you can definitely use the broader principles, start using the broader principles that also apply to personal finance. That was really something that came out of my previous interview with Dr. Gov Worker, is that he really sees the FIRE movement as like an entrance into just good personal finance practices. It’s just a particular way to like inspire people to follow through on the stuff that everybody talks about, you know, from decades ago. So, yeah. What have you actually, like maybe things you’ve put into practice within your finances since last summer?

Building Credit and Budgeting

06:44 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. So, the summer before grad school, my sort of first step into the journey was opening a student credit card through Discover which is something that prior to that I’d never had. So, beginning to build my credit was really important to me. And then obviously knowing that I would be receiving a monthly stipend once I began my MFA, I knew I needed some sort of system to track my income and expenses. So, I know there are apps like Mint that do this automatically, but I actually rely on a sort of extensive Excel spreadsheet that allows me to type things in manually the particular template that I’ve been using for the past year and a half just comes from George Hayward’s YouTube channel. But any, and all can achieve the same thing really.

07:31 Emily: We’ll track that down and put that in the show notes as well.

Emergency Fund and Roth IRA

07:35 Joumana: And the most important step I think after that was really focusing on building an emergency fund that I knew could last me for at least two months, but now I’ve brought it up to six months. And that’s actually advice that my parents have always followed. So, it didn’t feel too strange to me to begin doing. And after that, opening a Roth and beginning to stash away a monthly amount into my savings.

What is Halal Investing?

08:01 Emily: Yeah. Those are a fantastic number of steps to be taking just in like your first year or so of graduate school, especially that six month of expenses emergency fund. Very, very impressive. You must be living well below your means there in Ann Arbor. So, for those of us who like me, had never heard of halal investing before you brought it up. Can you tell us some of the differences between halal investing and maybe, you know, what your average American might be doing for investing?

08:28 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. So, to kind of backtrack a little bit, in Islam, the word halal just means permissible. So, halal investing is just a faith-based approach to investment management that’s both ethically and socially responsible. Halal investing really just tries to eliminate placing money in interest-based investments and highly leveraged company stocks or in securities of companies whose profit is typically earned from things like firearms, alcohol, or gambling, for instance. So, as you can tell, it’s not just as easy as opening a Roth through Vanguard, for instance, and beginning to save. However, doing the research has really helped me understand what it is I’m doing with my money and how the process works.

09:17 Emily: Yeah. So, maybe to explain like, just a little bit further for the listeners. So, what you’re basically saying is no bonds, right? Because bonds are a debt-based product. So, stocks are okay. But you mentioned that you can’t use companies that are very highly leveraged, so that requires some additional degree of research. So, it sounds like some company stock would be okay, some wouldn’t. And then nothing in these certain categories of “the sin stocks” as they might be referred to. Okay. So, that gives us a basis there. Does that also mean that you don’t use like interest-bearing checking or savings account? Is that correct?

09:55 Joumana: Yes. So, typically I actually won’t put my money into the savings portion of my bank account and I just have it all stashed in terms of the like six-month emergency fund, I just have it in my checking account. Because interest isn’t necessarily something that I’d want on my money, the same way that most people would.

10:18 Emily: Yeah. Gotcha. When I read up about the subject a tiny bit before our conversation, I read that many who are pursuing halal investing actually will end up not investing in stocks at all because of that additional degree of research that’s required. Can you expand on that a little bit?

Halal Investment Companies

10:37 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. I think for the average person, it can seem a little bit overwhelming to have to do all of this research all of a sudden. But I do think that there are actually a lot more solutions now than there were even just a few years ago. So, there are actually investment companies like Wahed Invest, Amana Mutal Funds, or Azzad and others that kind of facilitate the process of halal investing so that it’s not all entirely on the Muslim investor who doesn’t necessarily always know where to go or where to put their money. So, the way this works is that these companies essentially screen investments and identify companies that meet ethical standards based on halal investing. So, they also do things like help you calculate your annual Zakat percentage, which is just an obligatory charitable payment that has to be made on your earnings every year. And really the good thing with using these companies is that they have tickers that you can use to still invest through places like Schwab or Vanguard. So, realistically your Roth could still be with Schwab like I have it. But these companies by using tickers, these companies just screen all of the investments that you could have and provide you with places that you could potentially invest in.

Compromise: Higher Expense Ratios for Greater Flexibility

12:05 Emily: Okay. So, let me see if I have this right. So, basically, as I said earlier, this is sort of a particular version of socially responsible investing. So, this is a similar process that other socially responsible investing funds would go through, right? There’s a higher degree of screening of the companies that are included according to whatever the principles are that the fund operates under. And so it sounds like these companies that you just mentioned, they have created mutual funds, is that right? That then you can invest in maybe directly through them, but also through, as you just said, you know, other companies just by buying that particular mutual fund. And something that often happens with other SRI funds is that, due to that increased basically degree of work that’s required, the expense ratio is a little bit higher than you might find if you were doing like a standard index bond. Is that correct for like the investment that you chose?

12:54 Joumana: Yes, that’s typically correct. Although I know that companies like Wahed Invest, for instance, rely kind of heavily on robo-investors. So, the percentage is probably a lot lower. But yes, there are some kind of compromises that you make in terms of these investments that you choose to follow.

13:17 Emily: Yeah. So, one of the principles, let’s say, of the FIRE movement that you might come across, and also personal finance more generally, is this ruthless pursuit of low expense ratios on investments. And what expense ratios are for the listener, it’s basically just an expression of the cost of owning a particular fund. It’s expressed as a percentage. So, you know, at Vanguard with ETFs or something, you might get an expense ratio down in the 0.05 or less percentage. So, five basis points or less. They could be as low as that.

13:52 Emily: And then higher expense ratios are like 1%. Like 1% would be like pretty high. And there are many, you know, in between. And usually, with robo-advisors, you would have the underlying expense of the actual fund that you buy. So, like maybe 0.1% or less, plus a fee that the robo-advisor would tax on top of that to basically be managing your investments for you. But it sounds like even within this, you know, halal investing, even among these options, there are various expense ratios that you could be sort of pursuing and choosing among. Yeah, I think it’s one of the downfalls of the FIRE movement that SRI, socially responsible investing, is not talked about that much. And it’s very important to certain people for various different reasons. And so it’s something that is definitely worth, you know, maybe sacrificing a little bit on the low expense ratio side of things to, of course, in your case, be able to invest according to your principles at all. And for other people just being able to invest according to their general values and what they want to be supporting in our economy and so forth.

Commercial

14:54 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early-career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics, or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers, even while social distancing. Now, back to our interview.

Halal Investing is Growing and Increasingly Accessible

15:53 Emily: Anything else you want to add about the products or the solutions that are available for halal investing?

16:00 Joumana: I would say that they are definitely doing a better job of reaching out to the Muslim population now. So, I think there’s a growing movement really of young Muslim students, or even young Muslim workers who are really active in the investment community, which is always lovely to see.

16:21 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. It seems like, you know, as you said, robo-advisors are now being involved and robo-advisors are a relatively recent phenomenon in the last five or 10 years. So maybe, you know, the last generation when they were looking into investing they probably saw that, well, the burden was completely on them, right? To do all this research that we were just talking about and that can be, you know, prohibitive, right?

16:44 Emily: For even going that route at all. Like for instance, before mutual funds came on the scene, everyone was like calling up their brokers, buying more of this stock or selling more of that stock. Like that’s a lot of work to be putting in. And we’re so fortunate now to be living in a time when, you know, index funds are available to us. When these highly curated mutual funds are available to us that are, you know, relatively not that expensive. And as you just said, you know, there’s been more and more attention being brought to this. And so, these particular funds exist for your community and that’s really great to hear and very encouraging.

17:17 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely.

17:19 Emily: One other thing that I read about in this article was that, for some Muslims, again, who were avoiding stock investing entirely and of course, bond investing as well they basically had their money just in cash and real estate. Was that the case maybe in generations past?

17:36 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. I actually still think that it’s overwhelmingly the case for most folks who identify as Muslim in the U.S. And I think so much of that is just the lack of really accessible information about the kinds of investments that are available for adherence of the Muslim faith. And I think most Muslims, especially of an older generation, have this lack of trust in banks or in investment companies generally for various totally rational reasons. But I also think so much of it is just a lack of understanding of what actually your money is doing and how you can still adhere to a principle of halal investing while having your money in places like Schwab or Vanguard, for instance, or in a 401k or a Roth, whatever that may be.

Helping Family and Friends with Halal Investing

18:32 Emily: And have you been, now that you’ve been learning this stuff from Reddit and other places, have you been kind of turning around and spreading that message like to your parents or other family members or other people in your community?

18:42 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. Once I started learning about it, I would honestly annoy my parents all the time by being like, “Hey, let’s talk about this now, let’s talk about this.” So, I actually ended up helping my mom, once she left the job that she had been working in for about 15 years, to roll over her 401k there into an IRA, actually. And that was sort of a defining moment in my journey throughout personal finance is being able to actually like implement and apply the things that I’ve been learning. Especially when it came to someone like my mom, who I felt like was always on that journey alongside me somehow. So, I’ve definitely been bringing it over to my family. And then in terms of friends, I’ve actually been reaching out to a lot of my Muslim friends and being like, “Hey, let’s have like meetups where we talk about our finances, let’s talk about like our stipends or how we’re dealing with just being in grad school and even just budgeting if we’re not ready to talk about investing really.” So, it’s definitely been a way for me to kind of understand what other people are doing in terms of their grad stipends or the ways that they’re organizing and negotiating the budgets that they have for themselves.

20:08 Emily: That sounds amazing. Has this group gotten much traction?

20:13 Joumana: Yeah, absolutely. So, a lot of the people that I speak to are actually in totally different places. So, we’ll FaceTime occasionally and just kind of touch base about what we’re doing on any like new information that we’ve learned in terms of halal investing, any kinds of opportunities that have opened up. So, it’s definitely something that I’ve been really happy about keeping up with. And it’s definitely been just an absolutely amazing learning opportunity for me as well. Now that I can take it from those Reddit forums into the real world.

20:49 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you’ve created, I think in the entrepreneurship community, we call this a mastermind, right? A group of people, same people who regularly meet and talk about a certain topic and sort of hold each other accountable and push each other forward towards meeting your goals. That sounds absolutely brilliant. And something that I hope that other people replicate in their own communities or among their own friend networks. Are there any other ways that you would say that your practice of personal finance is different than that of your peers?

21:19 Joumana: Hmm. I don’t know that there are any huge differences really, but I think taking a halal approach to investing and saving money is always really grounding for me in that it acts as this constant reminder that at the end of the day, my finances are meant to serve an ethical role in the world. So, they’re not just a fulfillment for my own needs and desires, but that they also function in this greater sort of just way in the world. And I don’t know, I don’t know if that’s the kind of relationship that many of my peers have been able to cultivate with their finances. I know that many do, I know that many are very interested in socially responsible investments. But yeah, at the end of the day, that is deeply important for me to know about my own finances.

22:11 Emily: Yeah. I think you articulated that very well. It’s very inspiring to hear. I’ve actually recorded another interview on socially responsible investing. I’m not sure if that’ll be published first or if this one will be published first, but in any case, I’ll, I’ll try to link from the show notes to the other one, which is on sort of environmentally focused, socially responsible investing approach. So, these two complement each other very well, I think, in talking about those principles.

Best Financial Advice for an Early-Career PhD

22:34 Emily: So, final question here, Joumana, as we wrap up. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely else.

22:46 Joumana: Yeah. I think it’s incredibly easy to become overwhelmed when it comes to tracking money, especially as a grad student who is already not earning that much. But really, finding a system that works for you and supports your own mental health is way more important than applying every single piece of advice you read. So, really, the best financial advice that I can give to any other grad student is to do what works for you. To find a system that is helpful to you, and to explore all the options that exist out there. Because what works for someone might just be a terrible use of resources for you.

23:27 Emily: Yeah. I totally agree with that. These systems that we use for managing our money should absolutely be, you know, supporting and complimenting our lives and not be a super heavy burden or some onerous thing that we feel is like externally put on us. It definitely has to come from like within and be, of course, in adherence with your own values and your own priorities. It really should be something that makes you feel good and augments your life instead of, you know, feeling the reverse way. So, I hope that everyone can get to that point with their finances. And thank you so much for coming on the podcast and giving this interview. And you’re obviously, you know, very thoughtful about the subject and I’m so glad that you’ve learned about it and now you’re, you know, turning back around and helping your family and your community learn these principles as well. So, thank you very much.

24:14 Joumana: Thank you, Emily.

Outtro

24:14 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This PhD Student’s Budgeting Practice Enabled a Hawaiian Vacation

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In this episode, Emily interviews Sean from Authentically Average, a fourth-year PhD student at a university in Houston, TX. Sean and his wife have very intentionally set up their budget to reflect their values, and now live and die by their budget. Their top three budget priorities are retirement savings, tithing, and travel. Sean’s budget helps him say “no” to certain areas of spending or opportunities for spending so that he can say “yes” to his travel aspirations. Sean describes a wellness vacation he and his wife took to Hawaii and why travel is such a high priority right now.

Links Mentioned

budgeting for travel on a grad student stipend

Teaser

00:00 Sean: If you aren’t budgeting yet, try to get there as soon as possible. Tracking expenses is great and it’s helpful to get you in the right mindset. But until you are, I think, front end saying this is the money I will have coming in, here are the places it’s going to go, you can’t really capture your values fully and where to invest unless you’re doing it upfront.

Introduction

00:26 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 12. And today my guest is Sean from Authentically Average, a fourth year PhD student at a university in Houston, Texas. Sean, and his wife live and die by their budget. And they have put a lot of effort into making sure that their budget reflects their values. Their top three budget priorities are retirement savings, timing, and travel. Sean describes a vacation they took to Hawaii and the ways they minimize spending in lower priority areas of their life so that they can spend more on vacations and other types of experiential living. By the way, we recorded this interview in September, 2019. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Sean from authentically average.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:18 Emily: I am delighted to have joined me on the podcast day Sean, from Authentically Average. Authentically Average is the name of his blog. And Sean, I’ll just let you introduce yourself to the listeners.

01:28 Sean: Sure. Thanks Emily for having me. My name is Sean. I run the authentically average blog. I characterize myself as a PhD student, husband, chef, pretty much all of the above kind of general life stuff, and that’s the focus of the blogs, every day kind of living. I’m a PhD student in the 3D printing space. I just started my fourth year, so I’m hopefully approaching the light at the end of the tunnel. I live in Houston with my wife, Allie. We have nine children, and by children, I mean plants and most of them are still alive. I’m doing a PhD in 3D printing space. I got my bachelor’s in chemical engineering before that, went directly to grad school, and still trying to figure out what I’m looking for afterwards. I’m thinking like medical device route. That’s a really interesting space for me and the community in Houston is really kind of exploding right now, so I’m really passionate about trying to see that grow.

02:36 Emily: Yeah. Sounds really good. And I understand that your wife is a graduate student as well.

02:41 Sean: She is. My wife is getting her MBA currently. She’s super woman. She’s working full time and getting her MBA on the weekends. A lot of school at our house.

02:50 Emily: Yeah, that’s a full plate. I guess you might not be the busiest one in the household.

02:57 Sean: I think it goes both ways. The nicety of being a PhD student, sometimes, is depending on your advisor, the work schedule is not necessarily lighter, but more flexible. I tend to do a lot more of the, I talked about this briefly on my blog, but like, I tend to do a lot more of the household activities, like the cleaning and cooking and stuff, just because I’m the one that has the time for it. It’s like not always super sexy to talk about sometimes, but if I don’t cook, we don’t eat. Somebody’s got to do it. But we like to share. I mean, she’s got a lot on her plate right now from a professional capacity, so I’m happy to take on those other roles.

Translating Life Values to Your Budget

03:45 Emily: Yeah. And I guess that’s one of those things that you can talk about on a blog that is named Authentically Average. You can talk about your everyday experiences. And money of course, is among those. You recently published a post that was kind of talking about your financial values, which is something that I love to talk about. It’s the foundational concept in personal finance, yet not one that gets a lot of airtime, I feel like, unfortunately, so why don’t you go ahead and tell us about how your values inform how you use your money.

04:20 Sean: Sure. Thank you for that. A couple of weeks ago, the focus of that post was, and we can talk about this in a little bit, but I had gone on a vacation and some people were like, “Oh wow, this is great” and some people were kind of like, “okay, great, you went on this really nice vacation, but your blog is authentically average, how do you reconcile those?” I started thinking about it. I said, okay, I should probably take a step back. The value focus, like you said, is I think central to personal finance and making “smart” decisions with money, but not one that’s talked about a lot. Primarily the goal for that was “here are my values, here’s what I try to invest my money in, and by extension a little bit my time.”

Retirement Savings

05:10 Sean: For me and my wife, we have three top tier values, and then beyond that, everything kind of falls into place. The first one is financial security, so saving for retirement, making sure that we are doing the things we need to do now so that we can live comfortably later. I think that sometimes people get really caught up in this concept of like, I’m doing what I gotta do right now, and that’s fine. And sometimes they are not saving for retirement because they feel like they can’t and that there’s a lot there to kind of go through. And sometimes because they simply don’t think about it. The first time that I kind of understood the concept of like retirement savings and compounding interest and all of that, I started to notice, Oh, wow, there’s a lot of ground that I can make up here in my late twenties and set the stage for how my thirties and forties are going to go. That’s the first piece. The second piece is —

06:14 Emily: Actually, I want to make one offshoot comment to that because of course, saving for retirement is something that I love to talk about. One point that I really like to make when I’m speaking with graduate students or other sort of people on the younger side, younger and lower income side of things, is that if you look at those compound interest calculators, the time is what matters. I mean the time and the amount of money you save, of course they both matter, but the time — you wouldn’t believe what a little bit of extra time will get you in terms of increased returns. And so I always say, whatever amount…like if you feel like you can’t save anything okay, maybe that’s true, but if you can even find like $10, $50 a month that you can start putting away for that purpose, it’s unbelievable what a huge difference that makes on the back end of things, just to have those few extra years. Don’t be discouraged if you can’t save like a thousand dollars a month. That is a very large and unreasonable amount of money for a graduate student level of income, but a smaller amount of money makes a really, really big difference too.

07:18 Sean: Yeah, definitely. And just to kind of keep going on that thread, the stereotypical thing that people give of why you should start investing as early as possible is they talk about if you invest for 10 years from 20 to 30, the amount of money that you make during that time, by the time you retire, will outpace starting from 30 and moving forward. You can’t possibly catch up. Just like you said, sometimes I think people get like, Oh no, I can’t do that much., and that’s okay, but if you can do something, that’s great.

07:55 Emily: Yeah. I think one of the really difficult things that people run into early on is that they’re dealing with debt loads and they might have to clear those first before they can even touch the investing for retirement side of things. But since you’re already starting to invest retirement, I take it you’re either debt-free or you have debt that does not concern you.

08:14 Sean: We are debt free. I would say that my wife and I are very blessed, lucky, strategic, however you want to look at it, I guess. We paid our last debt off last year. I had an outstanding car note that I paid off. We again are very fortunate, I think, to be able to cash flow her MBA. That’s something that I think is a challenge, especially in higher education. I know that the finances for PhDs vary pretty drastically depending on field. In my PhD program, it’s tuition free, and we collect a stipend for working here. When I think about my PhD, I think about it more as job than I think an education of being a student. And I think collecting a paycheck helps me keep that association clear. So yeah, we are debt free. We are investing some. I’d like to be investing more, but also, you know, like you just said, there are different things that we’re trying to take care of and trying to keep all the balls in the air at the same time.

09:23 Sean: Yeah, definitely. Okay. So that is one of your top priorities, is saving for retirement. What’s the next one?

Experiential Living

09:30 Sean: So there’s two more. The second one would be, we have a really big focus on, I call it experiential living, but in the current case it’s travel. I joked about having plant children. Allie and I don’t have any kids yet. We have plans to have kids, but we just don’t have them right now. We have this focus on like, if there are things that would either be impossible or significantly more difficult to do when we have kids and when we’re older, we’d love to do them now. That post that you mentioned earlier about our travel, we went to Maui for a week over the summer. That was born out of like, “Hey, this is a great time to just go and spend a week in Hawaii and just, you know, live it up.” I mean, responsibly, but this is great. After saving for retirement, our next focus is, Hey, we want to have a good time, and for us having a good time looks like going out and exploring.

10:33 Emily: So I was really curious about this term, you just used — experiential living. Right now you said it looks like travel. What are the other things that might fall under that category for you?

10:42 Sean: I guess one thing is I know that some people, their focus is they want this nice X or Y. I think Allie and I, we would much rather save up money for a few pay periods and go to a nice concert or go see a play or a musical or something than buy a new TV or buy something else for the house. We do live in a nice apartment and we’ve decorated and all of that, but we would much rather do something that’s I think a little bit more like out and active. There’s not anything good or bad about that, or any other way. That’s just our preference.

11:24 Emily: Okay. So is this basically boiling down to the personal finance experiences versus stuff debate where everyone has kind of come down to the side of experiences? Is that what I’m hearing

11:36 Sean: Somewhat, yeah. I think that the stuff thing, depending on what the stuff is, is very valuable, in terms of having stuff and, and that’s all fine. But also I know just from, we did the like whole KonMari thing a couple months ago and realized, Oh, I have a lot of stuff. It was nice at the time, but in hindsight I would rather, I think have spent the money that I spent on that stuff on doing something.

12:06 Emily: Yeah. I actually heard this really great thing on a podcast recently. It was on the ChooseFI podcast and the, one of the people that they were interviewing, I can’t remember who the guest was said, something like he strives to have one memorable moment per month, some new thing that he’s never tried before. Travel would certainly fall under that, but it could be like a cooking class or like just doing something different out of your routine, once per month, he has that goal to make a memory, basically, with his wife. And actually it can be the same moment or they can have two different moments, one that each one prefers more per month, but that was his goal. And I thought that was amazing, and I really want to implement it in my life now, because I do feel like months can go by where it’s like, yeah, what happened that was great or notable or important, I’m not even sure.

12:59 Emily: Okay. So experiences, concerts, travel, that kind of stuff. And so right now your focus is doing the things that you would have a harder time doing once you have children. And I will have to say that when I read your post about your vacation, I was like, how do I get rid of my kids for a week, so I can do this. It sounds awesome. What is your third top priority?

Tithing

13:20 Sean: Again, so saving for retirement, travel and experiential living. The third one, honestly, is giving back and tithing. My wife and I tithe every pay period. I know sometimes as graduate students that can seem like a tumultous topic. We already do not make all that much money —

13:45 Emily: Actually, Sean, let’s pause there because some of the listeners might not be familiar with the term “tithe”, could you define that?

13:51 Sean: Sure. In a traditional tithe you would be giving, donating a 10th or some amounts. I mean, tithe literally is “10th”, but giving some amount back to your church family. My wife and I are Catholic. We give back to, we split between the church that we currently go to and then we also support a couple of students through the FOCUS program. They do ministry on college campuses throughout the United States. Good clarification. We give back to our church. For us, we do a traditional 10% tithe. That’s just, I think how we have decided that that’s where we want to put that value at. Does that kind of answer that?

14:39 Emily: Yeah. It’s not something that’s come up on the podcast hardly at all, but we also tithe and have for throughout graduate school, a long time. And it definitely, while I knew other graduate students from our church who also did that practice, it wasn’t something that I felt like was really widespread or something that graduate students could really get a handle on that large percentage. The 10% is a very, very large chunk of your income, but, I feel like tithing for me in terms of like the budget actually pushed us towards what I call percentage-based budgeting. If a 10th of your gross income is going towards that, we also did a certain percentage, it changed over time, starting at 10%, for like saving for retirement and then now we’re up to like 20%, so we’ve increased that over time. And I’m trying to remember, well, taxes are also sort of, not exactly a percentage, but you can convert them to a percentage of your income, so for us, it was like these different goals scale with the amount of money that we make, which I really liked that there was like this flexible percentage. The percentage is fixed, but the amount of money is changes depending on what your income is.

15:51 Emily: I really liked that way of thinking about budgeting, that you should have percentages going towards different things. And it actually goes pretty well with the balanced money formula. I don’t know if you’re familiar with this at all. It basically says that you should keep your necessary expenses below half of your take home pay. And I really liked that as well because, I think for graduate students, there’s this phrase that Dave Ramsey uses that I really like, not for graduate schools, but for people in general, which is something like “act your wage”, something along those lines. I think this percentage-based budgeting, I think, is really appropriate for people who have incomes that they expect to change a lot, like graduate school. Hopefully it’ll be going up alive later on, but if you have those percentages it can keep you really grounded and something can be consistent through those fluctuations in income basically.

16:44 Sean: Right. Definitely. Yeah. We do a similar thing in terms of trying to make sure that we’re doing a percentage breakdown on our budget. One small detail, we do typically everything on net pay, and then also when we get a tax return, I mean, ideally our tax return is zero, right. But if we do get a tax return, then we’ll do the same thing on whatever the return is. But I think it basically shakes out to be the same thing. I have found that to be really helpful. I feel like it helps us recognize where are we essentially overspending in our lives, and conversely, where could we be giving more attention, certainly.

Living and Dying By Your Budget

17:32 Emily: A phrase that I read in your recent post was we live and die by our budget, and that really stuck out because you talked about, I guess, that your budget is a plan for how you’re going to spend your money. And if opportunities arise after you’ve made the, you oftentimes say no to those opportunities, you stick with your original plan. I just wanted to ask you about that. How did you guys put together your budget, and how do you find the fortitude to stick with it?

18:02 Sean: I mentioned this very briefly before, disclaimer, this is not an ad, wish it was an ad, but it’s not, my wife and I use it’s called YNAB, or You Need A Budget. It’s a budgeting tool online that you use, to keep everything in order. One of the, I think, nice things about living and dying by your budget is it tells you how much money you’ve budgeted and allocated to every, whatever category you want to put it in. And if you overspend, the color of the money bar goes from a nice, pretty green to a very angry red color. And that’s just like, I think, maybe potentially a little bit of an immature way, but it’s really reinforcing for me of like, Hey, you made your money angry because you spent more than you allocated.

18:56 Sean: I joke about that sometimes living and dying by our budget. Really, it’s taken a lot of discipline to get to the point that we are now and give yourself grace and patience to get there as you’re working through things and things come up, of course. But we’re in a space right now where we have a set of goals, like I talked about, and a set of values. Sometimes things come up that don’t align with those, or potentially detract a little bit from them and we have to make a mature decision on like, Hey, is it worth us to do this? So one of the things I talk about in that post is, a friend of ours came to us and said, Hey, we want to go to this football game, last minute. Allie and I are huge college football fans, I went to a big football school for undergrad. Great, right, in terms of an interest standpoint, I think that’s great.

19:55 Sean: We started to look at the finances and said man, this is going to be like a thousand dollar trip just out of the blue. And I think at the beginning of the year, had we started the year and said, Hey, we want this to come up and we want to plan for this — great, okay, we’ll budget for it. But a few weeks out, we had to say, no. I mean, first of all, based on our budget, we literally did not have the money to do it without taking money from other standpoints. I really struggle with the idea of pulling money that we had saved for retirement out of retirement to go to a football game. But more than that, I think it’s sometimes difficult when you…This is always a challenge when you have very diverse friend groups is like, everybody has their own different set of values. And I want those people to understand, like friends of mine, that sometimes I to turn things down. Like, hey, I love you guys. You’re great, I appreciate everything about you, and I appreciate our relationship, but just understand that me not wanting to come out, or me not wanting to do this last minute, isn’t a reflection on like our relationship and is a reflection on I just don’t have the money for it according to what my wife and I decided it was important to us.

21:11 Emily: Yeah. There’s another blogger, content creator in the personal finance space, Paula and her brand is Afford Anything. And so her tagline is kind of like, “you can afford anything, but you can’t afford everything.” She’s really, like you were just saying, you have to get really clear about what’s important to you because you want to be able to say yes to the things that are at the top of your list. And that does mean saying no to the things that fall further down and that’s hard. But you can’t say yes to everything. If you say yes to everything, you’ll end up saying no to the things that are most important to you, if you accept every opportunity that comes your way.

21:52 Emily: I have to say though, your story reminded me of when I was in graduate school. I went to Duke and Duke won two championships while I was there 2010 and 2015. 2015 was technically after I defended, but I was still enrolled as a student and I still had tickets to games and stuff. So anyway, in 2010, of course you never know, going in to the tournament, how it’s going to turn out. And at the last second, we had an opportunity to go to the Final Four. Duke went, and my husband and I had the opportunity to attend. They were giving away tickets for students. It was actually free. The tickets were free. All you had to do was get there and stay there. And we really deliberated, and I don’t know that it came down to mostly a financial decision. There were other time reasons why we decided not to go. We had already traveled actually the previous year to see them play and they hadn’t advanced, and so we already had like, kind of that disappointment. So we decided against going, and of course in 2010, they ended up winning, same story in 2015. That’s just one of my major regrets from when I was in graduate school, because I was a fan, that I let anything stand in the way of like attending those events. So I do think that my main regrets from graduate school, in terms of my personal life were things that I didn’t do that money played into why I didn’t do it. It probably wasn’t the whole situation, but yeah, there’s two times I can point to an opportunity came my way and I said no to it, a very reasoned decision, and I really think that was the wrong way to go.

23:27 Sean: Yeah. And sometimes I think that that’s a struggle because we’ve done a couple of things too, where it’s like, Oh, this is such a good opportunity to do this thing. Sometimes, and I say this with a mountain of salt, occasionally we will not live and die by the budget. And the only way that that works is to have intentionally over allocated somewhere else, so that the total amount of money is still there, like the money to cover a different decision is still there. It’s not like we’re living outside of our means, but we do give ourselves a little bit of grace. Sometimes I’m like, this is a really big deal. That trip to Hawaii was pretty much entirely planned for, but there were a couple of things once we got there, that was like, you know what, we’re here, I think we’ll regret this thing if we don’t do it, let’s do it and we’ll figure it out.

24:27 Emily: Yeah. I think that strategy of over saving or just saving for things that you don’t know quite what you’re saving for — at some point a friend will invite you to do something, at some point you’ll have an opportunity to come your way that you’ll want to say yes to at the last second. And I think the way that most people who are not on top of their finances would handle it would just say, okay, I’m going to put it on a credit card, I’ll worry about how to pay for it later, which is not a great strategy. But if you save in advance and you’re just not totally sure what that money is going to go for, but you’re pretty sure something’s going to pique your fancy along the way then you can be able to say yes again to those opportunities, knowing that it’s still within everything you’ve allocated for an advance,

25:08 Sean: Just a small insight, we have a category in our budget called “stuff we forgot to budget for”, and we put a small amount, however much, in there every pay period just because inevitably something comes up. Now, if it’s an emergency, we have separate money set aside. You mentioned Dave Ramsey earlier — we have a separate emergency fund set aside for that kind of thing. This is more like your friend asked you to do something, you have an opportunity to go watch Duke win a championship, whatever.

25:44 Emily: Yeah, exactly.

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25:48 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

Frugal Tips for Experiential Living

26:34 Emily: So I’m wondering if you have any ways, any sort of frugal things that you’ve done in your life that help you have these experiences that you want have. Either minimizing the money that it takes to do those things or minimizing other areas in your budget so that you can free up more money for your top priority. Are there any like really good strategies you use in that vein?

26:58 Sean: I think the stereotypical student might fight this a little bit. I’ll start with the like ways of like daily life first. We cook 99% of our meals. That’s just the way it is. For me that’s two reasons. That post that I wrote is primarily about investing your money in what you value, but there’s also a small segment on investing your time in what you value and no question about it, cooking for yourself takes it takes time. It costs money to go buy groceries and it takes time to cook those meals. I think it’s easier to go out to eat, from a time perspective or pick up quick ready meals and that kind of thing, but from a time perspective, like at that point, I’m investing in my health. It’s almost exclusively healthier for you to cook for yourself than it is to go out to eat, and it’s almost exclusively less expensive to cook for yourself too. In that post I talk about, Allie and I have been discussing potentially giving ourselves a little bit more room on this and kind of grace on this for when we want to go out. We don’t go out to eat ever. Like once every couple of weeks and the reasoning for that is, whatever amount of money I would spend on going out to eat a couple nights a week is better suited towards saving for Hawaii, or, we’ve been married for just over a year, for our honeymoon we went to Italy. We spent two weeks there. That’s not an inconsequential trip size, and the only way that that works is you’re making cuts, so to speak, elsewhere in your life.

28:37 Sean: The other thing for us has been we’re busy people. She’s in school part time, well, no she’s in school full time and working full time, and I’m working full time and doing things at home. And so it’s really important for us to invest in our marriage. Regular date nights are important, but it doesn’t always have to be this five star restaurant. Those types of things are nicem, but I think I also get 90 plus percent of the relationship building component from that type of date from going to somewhere kind of casual, hole-in-the-wall, or going on an experience. We talked about this this morning, actually. It’s been a couple weeks since we had a formal date, and one thing that we’re going to do next week is we’re going clothes shopping and we’re going to Marshall’s-hop. There’s like seven of them within a 10 mile radius of us and we’re just gonna — we found that when we hit, we really hit there, but they’re very hit and miss, but there’s a lot of them, so we can kind of hop between and see. I think that that might sound somewhat silly to some people, but for us, we like investing in clothes that makes us feel good and feel professional, but also not breaking the bank and this “adventuring”, so to speak, and helping each other try things on — that I think is a fun relationship building activity that literally the travel aspect only costs the gas, and then we would have budgeted for the clothes. There’s that aspect on like life-hacking.

30:11 Sean: From a travel hacking standpoint, honestly, it’s just time. You have to decide how much your time is worth, but we always look for great deals on hotels and flights. Google has a flight tracker that you can use. It’ll send you alerts when your flights fall. I do the same thing for a lot of the hotels. A lot of third party websites are great. For Italy, actually this, this is a great story. For Italy, the flights were going to be like, I don’t remember like $1800 a piece or something, like a lot of money. We went in May, so like the beginning of high season, I get it. Then, the day before I was going to buy, because they weren’t falling, I said, “Oh, let me just look on another website.” I went on, I think it was Priceline or one of the third party website and it was like half that, together. I was like, “Yes, I’m absolutely doing this. We’ll take a weird layover to save half the cost. You could write a book about that, but that’s the things that I think of.

31:15 Emily: Yeah. I think when your goal is to have experiences and make memories and so forth, I guess there’s been research on this that like the anticipation of the experience is a big component of your satisfaction with it. And so taking the time to plan, and do whatever travel hacking and price comparisons and all of that, it actually enhances like your ultimate experience when you put a lot of effort into it upfront. I don’t know, to me it’s a little bit counter-intuitive, but yeah. So pursuing these travel hacking strategies, um, in addition to saving money can actually make you feel better about the whole thing. I guess what I was thinking about when you’re talking, especially about like the food and not spending so much money on eating out and so forth. That was a strategy that we used also. We cut out basically all kinds of convenience food, in favor of cooking for ourselves. And that is like a little bit of a sacrifice because yeah, you have to plan it a little bit more and all that, that goes into cooking. But for us, like for you, the money that we were not spending on convenience eating went towards our travel fund. And so when we knew exactly where the money that we would’ve spent on one thing was going to go, if we didn’t actually carry through with the eating out or whatever it was, that makes the whole thing a lot more palatable. It makes the whole thing go down easier if you know, okay, yeah, I’m sacrificing a little bit in this moment right here, but that is going to enable something really fantastic later on.

32:43 Sean: Right, right, right, right.

32:45 Emily: Any other frugal strategies around those things, either minimizing expenses on things you really want to do or cutting expenses and things that are not such a high priority?

32:54 Sean: I think the only additional thing that I’ll add is — it’s especially common, I think because like I, as a PhD understand or PhD student, rather, my time is limited. I think that my time is a little bit larger than some other people’s because I just try to make a point of, I’m only working X hours this week. Like this is my job and I’m putting this much into it. And that sometimes works for people and sometimes doesn’t. But I see a lot of, because we have such little free time, convenience buying and convenience spending somewhat to kind of what you, you mentioned earlier. And I think in some ways you do have to give yourself a little bit of that because the amount that you stress over not making convenient spend is also a use of resources, maybe not for the best. Just watch it. I always go back to “live and die by the budget”. Until I had a budget that I like actually did religiously every week and every pay period, I didn’t have a clue. And I started to look at my spending habits and said, man, I didn’t realize I was spending this much on snacks, or this much on cable and this other thing that I don’t even use. It just, it never occurred to me because I was always tracking my spending after the fact that never really looking forward any further than the next couple of weeks.

34:20 Emily: Yeah. I mean, tracking your spending is an amazing thing to do as like a first step. It actually does start to change your behavior in many cases. But if you’re just tracking it as a passive activity and it’s not actually balancing, okay, well, where do I want my money to go? And do I prefer it here? Or do I prefer it there? That’s what you have to do with your budgeting. They’re both really useful, um, activities, but I guess once the shock of the tracking wears off and you make whatever sort of subconscious changes you’re going to want to make from that, you need to start budgeting to get that further of value add from the activity.

When Budgeting Pays Off: Sean’s Trip to Hawaii

34:54 Emily: So we’ve teased this enough. Tell us about your trip to Hawaii, that made me so jealous.

35:01 Sean: We went to Maui specifically. We went to Hana, which is a very small town on the East coast of Maui. Allie was really into this idea of like a wellness retreat. And I did, I think the stereotypical husband thing that I hate and I was like, what are you talking about? No. And then I started to look into it. I was like, Oh, this actually sounds pretty awesome. So I was like, okay, yeah, let’s go for it, sure. There was a resort there called the Travaasa, just right in the town. Hana is not really the type of place that you go to and stay at unless you go to this hotel. There’s not a city center. It’s people that live there and this hotel and that’s it.

35:45 Sean: So we went and we said, okay, you know, let’s do it. This sounds great, let’s go. The only thing I’ll say about traveling to Hana is getting to the airports, great, but there’s a very famous road there called the road to Hana and it’s like 90 degree turns the whole way. It’s 40 or 50 miles and it took us three hours. You’re crawling and it’s crazy. But scenery is amazing and beautiful. The little food stops on the way are great. And then once we actually got there, it was just like paradise. It’s still the States, so there is cell service, but there’s no wifi available. The cell service is kind of shaky, we turned our work phones off, and just lived, and it was awesome.

36:34 Sean: There’s there was a lot to do there. They have a spa on site. I’m not a huge massage/spa person, but I was the most relaxed I’ve ever been in my whole life that week. The food was awesome. There was waterfront yoga and like paddle boarding and horseback riding and just like all of this stuff that we don’t ever do in our daily lives. It was really awesome to just for once I think go and just exist. My wife and I, in particular, but I think more generally PhD students and other graduate students, you’re just going nonstop all the time, and there’s not really any moment where you kind of just sit back and you’re like, “Hey, I’m not thinking about anything about tomorrow, except whether I want to do this cool thing or that cool thing.” I don’t know, I think that was a nice refresher for us.

37:34 Sean: Everything about it was super chill. The only not super chill thing about it is, there was actually a wildfire on the West side of the island while we were there. We went back to catch our flight and all the planes are delayed because they’re trying to get people that live there, like out of danger. Things are, I don’t want to say fine because you know, wildfires are extremely dangerous and there was a lot of damage there. People are generally fine. There were a lot of people that got helped. Everybody was safe. I don’t recall seeing any reports of fatalities, which is incredible. But for us, we’re literally there with our bags in a very small airport on Maui and we’re just like, “all right, guess we’ll chill.” I think a small price to pay, obviously relative to potentially losing your home in a fire, of course. But for us, nobody told us anything. Our airline didn’t give us any updates. We just got there and they were like, we’ll see what happens. Like I said, there’s a much longer post about it with pictures that are describing it way better than I can tell it, but highly recommend. Would definitely do it again. It was great.

38:54 Emily: What really struck me about the, your description of this vacation was that I didn’t do anything like that when I was in graduate school, except for my honeymoon. The honeymoon was relaxing. I mentioned that we saved a lot for travel before, but it was all obligation travel, all of it. We were usually traveling domestically to either see our families, or go to weddings, or attend reunions. Other stuff where somebody else was dictating the schedule, the timing, the place, all of that. I’m not trying to say that was a…We wanted to do it. We wanted to do all that obligation travel. Going to weddings is really important to us. That’s a high value for us, but it just kind of squeezed out any other possibility of taking a vacation that was just for us and just for the purposes of recuperation. There were always other purposes for the trips — seeing certain people, or witnessing certain events. Looking back on it, I did not give myself a proper amount of rest, throughout that process. And it’s still something that I struggle with, so I’m really glad that you guys, made it a priority, made the time for it. Hopefully you’ll do it a few more, maybe not the same vacation, but something similar, a few more times during graduate school so you guys can finish strong and finish healthy. So that sounds amazing, and yeah, we can point people to the post from the show notes.

Financial Advice for Early Career PhDs

40:23 Emily: As we finish up here Sean standard question that I ask all my guests — what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something related to what we’ve talked about today, or it could be something entirely different.

40:36 Sean: Sure. Just because we’re towards the end, I’ll give two quick ones, because I think they’re both very important. The first one we’ve touched about a few times is if you aren’t budgeting yet, try to get there as soon as possible. Like you said, tracking expenses is great and it’s helpful to get you in the right mindset. But until you are, I think front end, saying this is the money I will have coming in, here are the places it’s going to go, you can’t really capture your values fully in like where to invest unless you’re doing it on the front end. So that’s the first thing that I recommend.

41:12 Sean: The other thing is, depending on your program, especially for PhD students on grants and fellowships, so kind of take that with a very specific niche market in mind, sometimes you will be allowed to pursue other things outside of your degree and have side jobs and side hustles. I know, recently talked to another student, here in Houston who, I think was baby-sitting or dog-sitting. Am I remembering that right?

41:39 Emily: Pet-sitting.

41:39 Sean: Pet-sitting, right. And like, okay, great. So she had a side hustle and that’s awesome. Sometimes you can and look around for what things are available because the extra cash is really useful. Sometimes you can’t, on paper. They expect you to be in the lab, and if you have time that you could be giving to another job, you should be spending it in the lab. And I think my recommendation for that is more of a career-related one. You’re a graduate student and you’re contributing to the academic space. That’s beneficial to the field. It should also be beneficial to you, and so I think that I always recommend that students take opportunities that they find, when they become available, in stride, because it may be a value add to their career or to their finances, that isn’t necessarily a value add to their academic education. And that’s okay. I think sometimes we get this feeling of guilt of like, I’m not working hard enough in the lab. And if that’s true, okay, work harder in the lab, but if it’s not true and you can be doing other things that are beneficial for you, it’s okay to do things outside of lab. And I really struggled with that when I first got to graduate school, and I see that as a common struggle now.

42:55 Emily: Yeah, I guess, so I’ve been reading a lot about like time management, recently, to work on my own time management practices, and I guess one thing I’ve learned, I’ve been reading and listening to a lot of Laura Vanderkam’s stuff, and so she references research that’s on…First of all, that people don’t work as much as they say they do. Like people who are reporting that they work 80 hour weeks, almost always are never working more than like 55 hours a week. They may be at work for 80 hours a week, and that’s not a good return on your investment of time, is just to be around more. You should be resting or doing other things instead of that. But another part of that is that there’s sort of an optimal amount of work that you can put into something in a given week, and once you start going beyond that, your returns for the amount of time you’re putting in decrease and decrease and decrease. After 40 or 45 hours, you may be putting in more time, but you’re not necessarily getting that much more of it. It’s kind of this like 80/20 principle.

43:51 Sean: Yup, definitely.

43:52 Emily: Yeah. So I’ll just say like on that time management component, that it can really be beneficial for you if you don’t consider research to be like a black hole, you just throw more and more and more and more time into, that’s not necessarily the best way to approach it, but rather more like managing your energy and managing your time as well. And if that gives you time to pivot to a side hustle or hobby or, you know, exercise or whatever it is you want to do, that’s probably going to end up giving you more energy rather than taking away from your work. Do you know what I mean?

44:22 Sean: Right, definitely.

44:22 Emily: Just like taking vacations, you don’t do it necessarily for the reason of being more productive, but you probably are more productive when you come back from it.

44:29 Sean: Absolutely.

Where to Find Sean Online

44:33 Emily: Where can people find you if they want to read your blog or follow up with you elsewhere?

44:37 Sean: Sure. I’ll send these over so you can put them on the show notes as well. The name of the blog is Authentically Average. It’s authenticallyaverage.com. No hyphens or spaces. On Instagram and Pinterest I’m @AuthenticallyAverage, one word. Twitter was a little weird and I have @AuthenticAvg. That’s where you can find all of the different ways to connect with me. The two posts that we talked about today are up as pins on Pinterest. I can send those over and people can look at them if they want to. I love using Pinterest, just as a side note, I think it’s been really fun. If you are in the 3D-printing space and see me at an academic conference, come and say hey. I’m not shy. If you happen to recognize me, I’m happy to talk and all of that.

43:33 Emily: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and having this great discussion with me, Sean.

45:37 Sean: Yeah. Thank you for having me

Outtro

45:39 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How to Negotiate as a Graduate Student or PhD in Industry and Academia

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Abby Rainer, a PhD in organizational communication and Lean Six Sigma Black Belt. Abby’s dissertation focused on women in STEM careers negotiating their first jobs, and the expertise she brings to our interview is from her education, her research, and her personal experience. We discuss the correct way to frame your negotiation and why that’s challenging for some PhDs; the importance of considering all aspect of your offer, not just your salary; the similarities and differences between negotiating in academia vs. industry; and the biggest misconception people hold regarding negotiation.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

PhD negotiation

Teaser

00:00 Abby: Realizing that negotiation doesn’t have to be a one-shot, do or die, black and white kind of mindset. It can be over time. You will get many, many different chances to negotiate your worth or negotiate your package and everything.

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 11, and today my guest is Dr. Abby Rainer, a PhD in organizational communication and Lean Six Sigma Black Belt. Abby’s dissertation focused on women in STEM careers negotiating their first jobs, and the expertise she brings to our interview is from her education, her research and her personal experience. We discuss the correct way to frame your negotiation and why that’s challenging for some PhDs, the importance of considering all aspects of your offer, not just your salary, the similarities and differences between negotiating in academia versus industry, and the biggest misconception people hold regarding negotiation. This is a jam-packed episode that will be valuable for graduate students and PhDs at every stage of their careers. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Abby Rainer.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:22 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Dr. Abby Rainer, and we’re going to be talking a lot about negotiation and mindsets around that, particularly women in negotiation. I’m so excited for this topic, and Abby is an actual expert. This is related to her PhD work, and she now has a business related to this area. So, she’s going to tell us all a lot more about that. Abby, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. And will you fill our listeners in about your background?

01:48 Abby: Sure. Thank you for having me, Emily. I really appreciate being on here. So, to cover my background in a pretty brief term, I got my PhD from Michigan State University in 2018 and got a similar combination of a bachelor’s and master’s degree from Wake Forest. I got the master’s in 2015 and the bachelor’s at the end of 2013. So, I combined both of those degrees into five years just so I could hurry up and get onto the PhD.

02:14 Abby: I was cross-trained in several different areas that are relevant to today’s topic, including communication, industrial organizational psychology, management, human resources, and then education administration. And then areas that I trained on and did research on as well as other administrative work included areas like social support, stress, family planning, and some health topics. But then I also had a lot of business topics like specifically, if you are looking to negotiate your benefits and compensation packages. And then I looked a lot at STEM career trajectories. So, how women were flourishing and more male-dominated areas and the strategies they use to choose their careers and kind of how those paths sort of manifested for them. And then on top of, with my recent background, I have made courses for grad students on Udemy that cover areas like negotiating your benefits and compensation for grad school. And then also if they want to do more of a process improvement project on their finances, then they can find my green belt training there too, which covers a lot of very simple and straightforward ways to save money and document how you do that. It gives you a lot of tools on how to figure that out.

What is Your Udemy Site?

03:22 Emily: Yeah. Could you repeat the name of your Udemy site?

03:26 Abby: Sure. So, the Udemy is just a sort of, what’s called a MOOCs So, a Massive [Open] Online Course website and people can go to Udemy’s website and then they can just type in things like “grad school funding.” That would be a series of keywords that would bring up my training on graduate school benefits and compensation. And then they could also type in green belt, Six Sigma Green Belt, or Lean Six Sigma Green Belt and also my name. So, that should help them see where that pops up. I’ve only created one green belt training. I’ve not had more than one, so it should isolate that one particular training very quickly.

Abby’s Dissertation: Women in STEM + Negotiation

04:01 Emily: Oh good. Yeah, I wasn’t sure if it was going to be under like your name or like a business name or something. Abby, what’d you tell us a little bit in more detail, what was the subject of your dissertation?

04:10 Abby: Sure. So, I kind of in connection with what I was talking about earlier, I had done research on women in STEM careers and then work on negotiation in general. Like I gave some presentation work on hostage negotiation and terrorism, and this is a very different type of negotiation, but having a background, like a family background in finance, I kind of wanted to combine all those areas and some finance research I had done and specifically look at how women going into STEM careers, specifically their first STEM careers, how they negotiated not only their salaries, but really other types of compensation they could get like their health care packages, how much family time, like leave they had for, for instance, caring for children, and then other areas like bonuses and just work assignments as well.

04:56 Emily: And what drew you to that area? Why did you choose that for your PhD work?

05:01 Abby: I chose that because there was a lot of work that involved experiments, for instance, that created hypothetical situations, but these women were real-life women who had actually gone through actual negotiations in different companies across the United States. And so, I wanted to get a sense of reality. I wanted to see what women were actually going through and I collected a mix of quantitative and qualitative data. I used most of the quantitative data for the PhD sort of dissertation part, but I also created a series of questions in the survey that looked at, for instance, what were the descriptions of the negotiations actually happening, like who was involved in the negotiation? Did they say anything that was maybe discriminatory or that showed some sort of bias toward the women? And so, really looking at those areas, I started to pull some data on things like how much training impacted different outcomes, like how much money women were thinking of walking away with, or how much they actually walked away with.

05:59 Abby: And then I also looked at about 20 different benefits that women were able to get during negotiations, like a series of negotiations, and which ones they tended to get, so I could isolate different trends as to what people were more likely to walk away with other than just the salary being increased.

06:16 Emily: Yeah. I love that you actually took this forward into, let’s not just look at what’s going on, but what interventions are possible to actually help the situation a bit. That’s great. And I’m sure that we’ll talk more about that in a minute here, but just for the listeners. I mean, Abby obviously is an expert in this area. She has a lot to say, so we’re going to move really quickly through a few different questions in this interview. And if you want to follow up with her, which I imagine many of you will want to, check out the website that she already mentioned, her courses and so forth, and you’ll get a lot more of the content there.

Role of Mindset in Negotiation 

06:48 Emily: So, okay. I have been talking more and more recently about mindset and about its importance in personal finance. And I know that you also know something about mindset with respect to negotiation. So, what role does mindset play when you’re going into negotiation?

07:07 Abby: I think that mindset has everything to do with not only how confident you are, but also how effective you are. And you have to monitor how you are coming across in an interview so that you have to develop that sense of mindfulness. That way you can do what’s called pivoting. So, pivoting will be that you notice that someone’s not responding particularly well to a negotiation tactic, like using too much silence, for instance. You can turn the conversation around and ultimately start executing a series of steps based on that reaction to get what you want. So, you have to really stay in the present with the conversation, that way you’re able to assess the situation ongoing.

07:40 Abby: And you’re just able to create new strategies or choose ones that you already have in mind as you go along and just keep responding to what’s there, not what’s going on in your head and not what you think should be happening.

How Can PhDs Overcome a Scarcity Mindset when Negotiating?

07:50 Emily: I see. So, kind of what I’m hearing is what happens in negotiation is not totally set, linear, this is the exact script kind of path. And you have to be kind of adaptive to what is going on in the situation. And how can a PhD–like I know a lot of PhDs come into this whole post-PhD career thing with a lot of hangups that they developed in graduate school, around money and around their worth and so forth. And, you know, we might even call this like a scarcity mindset, or like a poverty mindset. And so, how does a PhD set that aside when they’re going into a negotiation? Like how do you actually overcome that if that’s what’s happened during graduate school?

08:31 Abby: I think that one really good way to look at it, especially if you were going into a non-academic job or if you were going into your first professor job and you’re not really sure, kind of where you stand compared to other people is, think through how to calculate and communicate your ROI or return on investment. That’s a very important business term not a lot of PhDs really think about or know how to calculate or communicate. But whenever you’re in a negotiation, let’s just say, I’m going to use a real life example of mine. I was interviewing with a major retailer, specifically in the jean sector, once for a job. I had to fly out to a different state to do that. And as I was there, I talked with, I think about 10 to 20 people.

09:11 Abby: And just one day, I had a series of individual meetings with some people, like higher-level directors, and then a larger lunch with a smaller group of people who were lower-ranked. I think they were maybe talent recruiters or something. And so, what I learned while there was that people wanted to hear how you were able to contribute to the table in ways they understood. So, with that particular case, I was interviewing for a jean company. So, some language to use when communicating my ROI would have been things like “best-sellers.” Like if I wanted to predict who was going to be engaged in a company over time, so looking at employee engagement, how to improve that, I could say the five best-sellers or in more or less research terms that grad students might understand, the five predictors of work engagement would be, let’s just say supervisor quality and four other things.

10:03 Abby: So, learning how to speak in ways that people in industry understand that don’t necessarily rely on statistics, because a lot of them don’t really know very much, if anything, about statistics is a good idea. And you can apply that mindset too if you’re applying to academic jobs like being a professor or a postdoc. You just have to know, for instance, let’s just say for ROI, you wanted to calculate how much grant money you’ve brought to the table when applying for different grants, or how many students you’ve taught, or ways that you’ve saved the university money. Other things like those can be communicated in a way that’s specific to your department or organization and what they care about. So, match what you’ve done to what people care about, and communicate it in a way that uses industry-specific language that they understand. And you should be good to go and sort of like start to defeat that poverty mindset over time. Because you can physically see–you can’t really contradict numbers in that case–you can see on paper, “Okay, I’ve done a hundred thousand worth of grants in one year. That’s a lot of money.” So, just starting to visualize that, but also learn how to be precise is important.

Focus on Thriving, Not Just Surviving

11:07 Emily: Yeah. What I’m hearing you say in this portion is like, I think part of the problems, and these are universal outside of academic training or whatever. Some people, a lot of people come into a negotiation thinking, “What do I need to survive? What kind of salary do I need to command to have the lifestyle that I want?” And coming out of graduate school, it’s probably not a high number because you’ve probably been living on a pretty, pretty low salary for the last several years. And you’re reframing this not as, “Okay, well, what do I need to get by?” But rather, “What value am I bringing to this organization? What metrics, what proof points do I have to back this up?” And also the further step of, “I need to communicate this to them in a way that they’re going to latch onto and appreciate,” not necessarily your most natural way of communicating. Does that sum up what you were saying?

11:55 Abby: Absolutely. And what a lot of people have to think about is not really putting themselves of “How much money do I need to survive,” but, “What is my, what’s called, market value?” So, when you look at market value, it’s a completely different mindset from what you’re taught in grad school, because the norms in your particular field, like if you’re going into tech, the norms for salary and benefits will be different they. Somewhat depending on the company, but also compared to other industries. Like if you work in manufacturing. So, you have to just consider those differences. But also you have to think of the whole negotiation as a win-win mindset. So, it’s not just about what can I get from this company. You have to think about me, myself, and family, because realistically speaking, and I know this is kind of harsh, but a lot of people, and especially in HR, will, if people say something in an interview, like “I need this much mind to live,” unfortunately they’ll just tell you perhaps even bold facedly, they don’t care, you know, what you need to survive, which it knows is harsh and I would never–I’m in HR.

12:48 Abby: So, I would never say that to an applicant. But really the company just cares about what you can bring to the table, because the implication of you bringing things is that they will take care of you in turn. So, you don’t really have to communicate, “This is what I need.” You have to show them based on, for instance, your certificates, what your capacities are, just different software and other skills that they find relevant. You can use all of that to get more money because you are clearly bringing more to the table. They’ll be generally more willing to pay for all those skills. Because especially, at least in my case, for instance, I bring a lot of really rare skill sets to my particular job. And I got that job through a contract. And so, you know, just being able to show what all you bring that will help the company give you the money and you won’t have to worry about surviving as much. You’ll be able to think about thriving, which is completely different, as far as the psychological response goes. Survival schools, more of grad school, it’s just the bare minimum. What can I possibly scrape by? With industry, you should present yourself as what can I do to thrive and help people at work thrive and just kind of frame it like that.

Big-Picture Negotiation Items Besides Salary

13:47 Emily: Yeah, so this is really, you know, taking a step back from being very me, me as the applicant, very me-focused and more about what am I bringing to this organization? What other big-picture items should applicants be thinking about when they’re going into a negotiation process?

14:02 Abby: I think that one of the big ones that a lot of people don’t really particularly talk about, and sometimes I’ve heard in even other podcasts, maybe discourage a little bit, is thinking about what’s called the total reward lens. So, the total reward lens, if you think of the big pie, for instance, like the kind of pie you can eat, not the number. If you think of a pie and you think of all the possible pieces that could come out of it, those are all interrelated, but they’re also their own separate entities once they’ve been cut out of the pie. So, they’re able to be standalone items. Whenever you think of a total reward lens, whenever it comes to getting what you want from work, you have to think of that kind of like a pie, too, because salary is naturally going to be a big part of that pie for a lot of people. But you also have other pieces of the pie like your healthcare, which projects you can work on, the quality of your supervisor.

14:51 Abby: And then some other areas like how much autonomy do you get? Or how much natural light does your office get? And those pieces of the pie in terms of their size or their weight, depending on how you want to think about it, are all different for different people. So, you have to think about, “If I were to make my ideal pie, what would that look like in terms of where all the pieces are and how much those matter relative to the overall sort of picture that I’ve got going on?” Because different people are going to have different needs. If you’ve got a parent who’s got young children, then maybe flexibility might be more important for them. Or if you have someone who’s more into work-life balance, like they want to go ski on the weekends, then that might be very important to them, too. But it might not be as important to someone who maybe like myself is single and doesn’t really have to take care of kids, at least right now. So, it really depends on your specifics. So, you just have to like define those numbers for yourself, but also realize if you don’t get a bigger part of the pie focusing on salary, maybe you could get a bigger part of the pie that would focus on another area or two or three other areas that you also care about.

Is Everything Open for Negotiation?

15:53 Emily: Yeah. I think this is an area that people definitely don’t pay enough attention to. Like you were saying, it’s kind of all about the salary, but there are so many other aspects to your benefits or just your work culture and work style that should play into your decision about which kind of job to accept and also what to negotiate. So, would you say that is every piece of this pie up for negotiation? Or like where might one focus your negotiation if you’re not quite happy with all the different pieces?

16:22 Abby: A lot of it depends on the type of job you have. So, for instance, if you are working in a government position that is governed by a shared contract, like a collective bargaining agreement, for instance. Then certain areas of your package, like the initial salary may very well not be negotiable. I actually had to tell, whenever I was hiring people, several individuals who applied, this is part of the collective bargaining agreement. You can’t negotiate it. Over time, you can perform better and get a bonus that way. But at least with this contract, your salary, at least your base, is set. So, if you want to get more money over time, it’s really on you. You have to perform in terms of exceeding expectations. And then you can get more money that way. You can also get other money by doing other tasks that the job would be open to.

17:08 Abby: So, for instance, if you did overtime, that might be something that you’d be able to get more money from, but it again depends on whether that’s available. So, those are some examples of what all you could do besides money. And then, of course, you have to think about too, what other options are available? And most places have a lot of different options when it comes to healthcare. For instance, you might have a lower deductible, and that works for you whenever it comes to healthcare, compared to someone else who wants to have a higher deductible. Or you might want to put more money in your 401k, like a retirement account, or, you know, the company might match whatever you do put in. So, you just have to look at/get sort of an initial view. If you can, if there’s an employment handbook, that will usually tell you different things like the possible packages available, the benefits, like maybe gym membership.

17:53 Abby: So, try and look there first. And usually those come through websites, they might be coming through HR. Like HR might directly send you them. Once you get your initial offer letter, just take a look at not only the offer letter, but the information they send over through those handbooks. A lot of people don’t even bother to look at those handbooks, but they’re very useful. So, I would just say, take a survey of what you’ve gotten initially. And then if you’re not happy with something, think about, “Okay, what could I bring to the table in terms of ROI to argue why I should get that thing?” So, it’s not like, most places are not going to have a huge conversation about negotiating healthcare. You go on and enroll yourself. So, that’s kind of a proxy for negotiation, but if it’s something like maybe extra days off, you would want to be able to come up with an argument to justify that. Personally, from an HR standpoint, I wouldn’t start from the job like day one saying, “I want more hours off.” I would wait until over time, maybe six months once you’ve had a little bit of tenure there, to propose that. But it just really depends on your situation. Try to take into account whatever information you do receive. And if you have questions, of course, ask at that time into your discussion, depending on your situation.

Commercial

19:04 Emily: Hey social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15-minute call with me at pfforphds.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time. I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now, back to our interview.

How Employee Training Benefits the Employer

19:50 Emily: I want to mention one of the things that my husband actually negotiated for when he took his current position was, I guess you would call it, like training. So, like professional development. Maybe it’s something like, it’s not clear whether that actually like increased, you know, what he was going to get anyway, but it made it more explicit to his employer that he was looking to advance his career. And this is how he saw, you know, that he wanted to do it. And they said, “Yes” to it. Like, “Yes” to his proposal. So, I would imagine that would apply in a lot of other places, maybe where negotiation on salary or something else is a little bit more rigid. But you know, you can set yourself up right from the beginning to, you know, to seem like a go getter, right? You’re going for a promotion like right away, you know, you’re eager. You’re going to be growing your career. You want to grow with that company and how can they help you do that?

20:37 Abby: Right. And one of the things that you want to communicate whenever you’re proposing for something like more training is what kind of value that would also bring to the company, because that will set you up. For instance, one of the trainings I received during my government job, my last job, was that I was able to become a Lean Six Sigma Green Belt and a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt. And a lot of people might not know what those are or what they mean in terms of quantities, but in the process improvement area and finance and some other areas, those are very well sought-after certifications for people to have. And you can bump up your salary over time by anywhere from 5,000 with green belt to maybe 20,000 plus with a black belt.

21:13 Abby: But at the same time, you’re also able to save companies a lot of money because you’re able to go in, create change interventions, lead people through those interventions, and then identify ways that your group can maybe devote money to other resources. Like if you’re spending too much on training, for instance, and you could maybe cut costs or reallocate those costs, then maybe you can use that money to give people higher bonuses or something to that effect. So, as you’re proposing that increase in training, definitely make sure to communicate how that would benefit the company too, because in some way, shape or form, it probably will. You just want to make sure that people understand what that is from a very early standpoint. That way, you can frame your training as, “Okay, I propose there are five key goals that I’m going to get out of this. I’m going to go in, get those and I’ll show my team whatever those things were.” That way I can make sure I’m consistent with what I promised.

Negotiation in Academia vs. Industry

22:00 Emily: Excellent. So, I imagine we have people in the audience who, you know, they’re hearing your talk and you’ve mentioned industry a lot so far. But many of my listeners may be, you know, gunning to stay in academia. So, is the process of negotiation different, the same between those two different types of workplaces?

22:20 Abby: I would say that some of the behavioral norms and perceptions are very different. Because when I was in academia, I was in grad school and then I negotiated for my negotiation packages, like my benefits and compensation packages. And so, the first time I did it, wasn’t really negotiable as we were kind of on a collective bargaining agreement. Again, meaning that we all just had the same benefits and compensation. Like our stipends were all the same, and there wasn’t really a step-raise as much. But a lot of people in academia can negotiate quite a lot, too. And I would say that one of those critical parts of you negotiating, whether you’re a faculty member or a grad student of any level coming in, is that make sure you go do a campus visit. If you’re not invited to, definitely make sure you go do one. Because you want to get kind of a survey as to what your office area might look like, what the different resources like laboratories for instance are or libraries, and really how the people are, too, and kind of how everything is arranged. Because what I’ve noticed over time is that the way a department is arranged in terms of its space, its people, and its resources will tell you a lot about how you’ll fit well there or not.

23:23 Abby: So, for instance, I went to whenever deciding between two different PhD programs, I decided which one based on the visit that I went to with each one. So, whenever I went to grad school A, Choice A, I noticed that for instance, the offices had no windows whatsoever. And that’s very common in a lot of places in academia, especially if you’re in a much larger, more kind of cloistered building. And I was thinking, I’m definitely the kind of person who needs natural light. And that might not sound like a big deal to many people. But when you’re in an office for three years, constantly working on high-stress projects, maybe dealing with students who have a lot of problems and then other people who come in with different requests, you want to make sure that you have an office that’s inviting to at least some extent.

24:08 Abby: And so, I thought a natural light kind of office would be better for that. That wasn’t as big of a pie piece. Getting back to my pie analogy earlier, compared to the travel stipend that I got, for instance, but it definitely was important. So, use the visit that you get to kind of determine what you need to negotiate and think about because you can actually get a lot more by going to visit. Because whenever I went to visit, I got an extra, I think it was 4,000 at the start, from Place A compared to Place B just by contributing during the discussions that people had about, you know, why you want to become a grad student here and so on. And you’re able to meet people and add value to them. And that’s the key thing is make sure you add value that way. People are more likely to give you things in return because you can leverage that powerful principle of social reciprocity, which is if someone gets something from you, they’re more likely to give back in return.

Virtual Campus Visits

24:56 Emily: So, we’re recording this on March 23rd, 2020. And I think all PhD grad visits are probably off at this point for the remainder of admission season. Now, we’re actually going to publish this episode, I think after April 15th. So, after all the decisions have been made. But I’m just thinking about for students in this current situation, or maybe in future years when a visit is not possible for whatever reason. Of course, it’s ideal, but if it’s not possible, how can an applicant as a graduate student, or even at a later stage, get a sense of these things remotely, somehow? What do they need to do to create a facsimile of an actual visit?

25:36 Abby: Sure. So, there are different options. And I think that departments, if any faculty are listening, I would highly encourage them to explore this option. I’ll really just lay out two quick options. One would be to see if there’s any way–some departments already do this, depending on the school and the department you’re in, some don’t. Some departments offer digital tours. So, if students cannot come for whatever reason, they might have someone doing kind of a vlog of the laboratory, that might be something that’s interesting and valuable to you. And maybe you can live tweet them while you’re doing that. It really just depends on who all is leading that. Another option would be to, and you probably should do this in addition to option one, if you can. But another option would be definitely talking about your office setup and other things with faculty and grad students. Grad students would be more likely the safer option whenever it comes to communicating about what their offices are like. Faculty may very well not know anything about what current grad students are doing with their offices.

26:28 Abby: A lot of places do publish things about their grad student groups. Like who’s the president, VP, finance person, so forth. I was the finance chair with my group. But try to get out to reach that person, and they will probably connect you. If they don’t know something, they will connect you with someone who does. So, I would follow those steps. And then also just if the place has a Facebook group, for instance, definitely see what all people are taking pictures of there. And really over time, I would just say, try to ask a lot of really good questions. Because faculty and grad students love it when someone not only praises their work that they’ve been working on, but they have a mutual interest in, but also they appreciate someone who asked really thoughtful questions about things that they care about, too. So, I think if you frame it still as a win-win, like I’m giving this person a valuable, interesting conversation and they’re giving me information in turn that’s useful, I think that that will help you come across a lot more effectively. Because email conversations were very instrumental for me, too, whenever applying to grad school and deciding between different schools as well.

Misconceptions Around Negotiation

27:25 Emily: Yeah, I think if at all possible those conversations should happen over the phone or over video conferencing. Just because if a grad student, for instance, has anything not so nice to say about their department or their advisor or their group or whatever, they’re probably not going to want to put that in writing. So, it’s much better to speak live and not in a recorded fashion when you’re having those really candid conversations with current graduate students. So, thank you so much for those thoughts, Abby. And finally, can you clear up any misconceptions for us around negotiation and negotiation strategies?

28:03 Abby: I think that one of the biggest ones that I didn’t really think about early on, but started to realize over time, and then of course in retrospect, see a lot better is that a lot of people worry about negotiation if they don’t get it right the very first time–like their first semester right as, for instance, they’re getting into grad school or right as they’re becoming a professor or an industry professional–that they’ll never be able to do negotiation over time, or they’ll never be able to get it right. So, there’s that kind of fixed mentality of, “If I don’t get it now then I never will.” And that’s not necessarily true because the truth is that your job is very dynamic over time. People change. Sometimes departments get reorganized as we’ve seen more lately, whether you are in academia or in industry. Sometimes entire companies get reorganized to where their benefits and compensation structures change.

28:46 Abby: So, always be aware of what’s going on in your organization or in your grad school or your department, if you’re a faculty member or person wanting to join that. And just keep aware of the changes going on. That way, you can see different opportunities. Also make sure to realize that you are still, no matter where you are in your career, adding some sort of value, like a service, to your department or a company, for instance. So, keep abreast as to what ROI you are bringing to the table. And you can even keep, for instance, like a shout out sheet. I know a lot of people will use that. So, it’s like a list of all those accomplishments you have, what value that’s added, like making employees more engaged or improving organization, like even organizing a closet or like an area of the office where people store papers or files can be very useful. That may or may not be in your job description, but it depends on your situation.

Negotiation Can Happen Over Time

29:36 Abby: So, just realizing that negotiation doesn’t have to be a one shot, do or die, black and white kind of mindset. It can be over time. You will get many, many different chances to negotiate your worth or negotiate your package and everything. Because for instance, whenever I went into grad school, the grad school I chose for my PhD program had a lower stipend than the one that was offering me a package in return. And the reason I chose that other one was just that it really seemed to fit more with what I was hoping to do regarding the research methods path I wanted to go on, regarding the kind of set up of the department, and some other factors. But what happened was that over time I actually got, I think it was 15,000 extra dollars from that department during my three years there because I got 3,000 extra dollars in conference funding that I didn’t even have to apply for. The department chair just told me I qualified for it based on how I was a domestic student.

30:31 Abby: There were other things like consultant contracts which I was able to get and work on that brought in extra money. And then there were some other things too, like dissertation grant money that I got a lot more of there than I would have at the other place. So, I actually ended up kind of starting from a lower place at that Choice B university or not really Choice B, but Option B, and then working my way up to where I got actually a lot more money, pretty much almost a year’s worth of extra money, for only going three years. So, it doesn’t have to be like a one shot kind of picture. You just have to think over time, how can I find ways to negotiate? And if people want to read an area of IO psychology that deals with this a lot too, but not necessarily in money terms, they can look at what’s called the job crafting literature. And so, job crafting will show you different opportunities that you have to negotiate and it’s got four different categories and several of those papers. Very useful.

Where Can People Find You?

31:24 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for that tip. And speaking of, you know, where to go more, can you just mention again where people can find you if they want to hear more from you?

31:31 Abby: Sure. So, other than my Udemy course on negotiating your funding for grad school and then on another for Lean Six Sigma Green Belt, which shows people how to save money, people can also go to Twitter. My handle is @rainer_abby. And then they can also go to find me on LinkedIn a lot. And it’s just Abby Rainer PhD Lean Six Sigma Black Belt on there. So, those are the main places right now that they can go.

Best Financial Advice for an Early-Career PhD

31:59 Emily: That’s excellent. Thank you so much. And I always conclude my interviews with this question, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we touched on today in the interview, or it can be something completely different.

32:13 Abby: I would say that my best financial advice would be, and one of my early advisors told me this as well, is that if you do anything regarding finance, make sure to get it in writing and to make sure it’s in very clear writing. Because sometimes especially if you’re in a company or in grad school, people will promise you things like working on projects or grant money, but they might not be very upfront about it, or very clear as to when you’ll get that money, how, and so forth. I break a lot of this down in my Udemy training on funding for grad school, but just make sure that you get everything–the who, what, when, where, why and how–very clear, because you want to know exactly where your money’s coming from, why you were getting it, how it’s going to be dispersed to you.

32:56 Abby: And if you need to return part of that for any reason, like if you’re writing a grant, how you do that. Just so that everybody is very clear about what expectations are and there’s no fuzzy area regarding what needs to be done and by who.

33:09 Emily: Yeah, I think that’s excellent advice. And it’s also not even necessarily people being like underhanded and like purposefully leading you on or whatever. Sometimes people are just forgetful. And especially, you know, like in graduate school, faculty members, they’ve got a lot on their plates, so it really is better for all parties to be really clear and put it in writing, as you said so that everyone’s on the same page about what’s going to happen and when and so forth. So, thank you so much for that advice. And thank you for this interview, Abby.

33:36 Abby: Yeah. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And I hope that people find this very useful because I didn’t know any of this before grad school or my time in academia. And some of it, I didn’t even know before my time in industry, but now that I’ve kind of been in both worlds, I see a lot of things that maybe I wouldn’t have before. And they can do that, too. It’s not just, you have to have a background in finance. You can do it regardless of where you’re from.

33:58 Emily: Absolutely. Negotiation is a topic that I don’t know as much as I would like to know about it. And so I’m highly interested in getting more of this content out to my audience. So, thank you so much for providing it.

34:08 Abby: You’re very welcome. Thank you. I appreciate you having me and hope everybody does well.

Outtro

34:13 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode, register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This Grad Student Navigated a Broken Engagement in a High Cost-of-Living City

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In this episode, Emily interviews Tina Del Carpio, a third-year PhD student at the University of California at Los Angeles in ecology and evolutionary biology. Tina chose their PhD program in Los Angeles in no small part because their fiance’s career was tied to the city. However, when they moved in with him and started planning the wedding, cracks began to form in the relationship. When they broke up, Tina had to figure out how to extricate themself from their shared apartment and yours-mine-and-ours financial system. Fortunately, Tina landed on their feet with the help of their NSF Graduate Research Fellowship, understanding advisor, and network of supportive friends. At the beginning and end of the episode, Tina and Emily also discuss the power of self-advocacy in graduate school.

Links Mentioned

grad student breakup

Teaser

00:00 Tina: Thankfully, we also talked about what would happen if we broke up, even before I moved out here. I was very adamant about having my own support network and knowing that I’d be able to survive without, if things just didn’t work or we’d gotten divorced or something.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast to higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode ten, and today my guest is Tina Del Carpio a third year PhD student at UCLA in ecology and environmental biology. Tina chose their PhD program in Los Angeles in no small part because their fiance’s career was tied to the city. However, when they moved in with him and started planning, the wedding, cracks began to form in the relationship. When they broke up, Tina had to figure out how to extricate themself from their shared apartment and “yours, mine and ours” financial system. Listen through the end of the interview to hear how Tina handles their finances these days, and they’re excellent advice for other early career PhDs on advocating for yourself. By the way we recorded this interview in September, 2019. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Tina Del Carpio.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further

01:19 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today. Tina Del Carpio, who is a graduate student at UCLA, and we’re discussing a little bit of a tough topic today, which is Tina’s breakup from about a year and a half ago. They had a little bit of financial commingling before the breakup and had to disentangle themselves from one another afterwards, which was a challenging thing to do in the midst of graduate school. Tina, I’m so delighted to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. And will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

01:47 Tina: Of course. Thanks for having me on Emily. My name’s Tina Del Carpio, my preferred pronouns are they/them or she/her. I’m a second year PhD student at UCLA, or I guess about to be a third year PhD student at UCLA. My focus is on genetics and epigenetics of canids, specifically dogs and foxes.

Getting Engaged, Starting Grad School and Moving to LA

02:10 Emily: Okay, so we need to take this story back to when you started graduate school. How did you make the decision to go to UCLA? What factors were you?

02:19 Tina: Yeah, so this is actually really entangled with my relationship because at the time, my partner and I had been long distance for about five years and he was working in the film industry, so his life and his job were very tied out to LA. I geographically restricted my search to universities near Los Angeles, or ideally in Los Angeles. I was very fortunate to make a connection with a postdoc from the lab that I currently I’m a student in. I talked to her about her experience in the lab and the project that she was sort of leaving behind as she was graduating. I got really interested in that project and was looking to pick it up and met with her and the advisor, my now advisor, Bob Wayne, and we talked about the project and they helped me put together an application for the NSF GRFP. I ended up being awarded that fellowship. This all happened kind of very quickly. We actually had this conversation, decided for me to apply for the NSF, like a week before it was due. I actually only applied to UCLA in that case and figured “oh it’s a crap shoot. I probably won’t get in, and I’ll just stay on track with my other plan to just apply to a bunch of schools the following year.” But it worked out, I got funding and it was in my ideal city, and with an advisor was happy to work with.

03:49 Emily: That is an incredible story, not even the one that we’re focused on today, but I love hearing about sort of non-traditional ways of finding your way into a PhD lab. You networked your way basically into this, right? You said you first connected with a postdoc who was leaving the lab, then that connection led you to the advisor and put together this NSF application, which by the way in a week, that was successful. That is incredible! Good job on that. How did you first make that connection with that postdoc?

04:22 Tina: Yeah, so it’s funny. I literally was thinking about, okay, I changed jobs, I was working as a lab tech gaining more research experience to apply to grad school, and I had just sort of wistfully bookmarked a bunch of labs that I was interested in applying to in about a year. Then my boss announced that we’re getting a new postdoc. It happened that she was coming from one of the labs that I had bookmarkedm and when she came out to look for housing and to make some plans to settle in, in North Carolina, I kind of cornered her and was like, “Hey, so I’m interested in applying to the Wayne lab, can you tell me about the Wayne lab.” Also, it happened to line up with, I was about to be in LA visiting my ex, and so I was like, “Hey, I’m going to be there next week, can we meet up in person, and can you give me a face to face introduction with Bob?”

05:15 Emily: That is incredible. I mean, this is how networking works. It’s not like you were in some unrelated lab, right? You were already on the course to be studying something related to what you would ultimately do in graduate school. Of course there are related labs and people know each other and you run into people. That’s a wonderful story. It’s actually not that dissimilar from how I got into my graduate school, which is that my husband started — we graduate from college at the same time, but he started graduate school at Duke immediately, whereas I did a postbac year. And so, because I was regularly visiting him in Durham, I was especially interested in getting into Duke, and I basically used one of my visits to see him as like, “Hey, various professors that I’m interested in, why don’t I set up my own interview with you?” all prior to admission season even starting and made a few connections there. Ultimately applied to Duke and various other places and went through kind of the normal admissions route after that point, but then ultimately circle back around, and one of the people who I had created my own interview with ultimately, you know, offered me a position and he was my advisor during graduate school. These things, if you have the motivation, sometimes they do work out. I’m really glad that we have that story upfront.

06:28 Emily: Okay, so you were awarded the NSF GRF, that’s awesome, and you’re starting at UCLA and you’re finally living in the same city as your partner. What was going on with you guys like logistically and financially at that time?

06:40 Tina: Yeah. Things are getting a little bit more commingled and complicated at that point. When I actually got the NSF and got accepted to UCLA, because actually I initially wasn’t accepted and wasn’t even invited on the official interview weekend, but suddenly having your own funding for three years opens doors.

07:01 Emily: No kidding.

07:02 Tina: Yeah. So I got the NSF award and then shortly afterwards we got engaged, and then planned a wedding, made a lot of wedding deposits, and then I moved out into LA. Part of the navigating how to do our finances together, we basically decided we’d each keeps some of our money separate, but we opened together a checking account, a savings account, and a credit card, so we could both funnel some money into that and use that to build up a little bit of shared savings and also to pay off any expenses, groceries, rent, things related to the wedding, et cetera.

07:43 Emily: I want to ask a little bit more about that because this is becoming a very popular model, whereas maybe a few decades ago, a vast majority of couples were using fully joint finances. Some minority were using fully separate finances. Now this “yours, mine and ours” model is becoming very, very popular. As you said, most people use it for shared expenses like rent, like you were just saying, you had the wedding that you were putting down deposits for all that kind of thing. How did you decide on the split? Were you guys contributing equal amounts of money to your joint accounts? Or was it maybe by a percentage of income or how did you navigate that?

08:23 Tina: Yeah, so I guess the tricky part we were navigating was housing costs because my ex made about double what I was making, even on an NSF salary or stipend. We ended up deciding for housing that we would pay housing proportional, so he paid two thirds of our rent and I paid one third, especially moving from Durham, my rent went from $400 for my half of a two bed, two bath to we had a like $2,400, one bed, one and a half bathroom apartment. So my rent was changing significantly and also I was eating up a bunch of moving costs. So housing, we decided to do proportionately, but everything else we decided to just split 50/50.

09:10 Emily: At least it was the conversation that you had. That is a great point that you’re at least coming to a firm decision and have a strategy for addressing it. So the place that you were living, which was out of your price range, it sounds like, or I guess was it actually, so like, would you have made a different housing decision had you been moving there as a single person or maybe looking to find a roommate or like what would have been different and how much do you think you would have been paying?

09:35 Tina: Yeah, so I would have definitely looked for something different because it was…well, there was also a lot of uncertainty for me of like, what are my housing costs going to be? Even coming to LA my car insurance went up significantly and that’s actually a thing that I also commingled with my ex. He had USAA, which has a great insurance discount. I added my car onto his, onto his insurance, and so it took me a little while to navigate that and figure that out. But initially the budget I had set for myself was $800 for my rent. And then eventually, you know, I had to reconcile that when we were breaking up.

10:16 Tina: Thankfully we also talked about what would happen if we broke up, even before I moved out here, because my mom got divorced after like 20 years of marriage and I saw the financial struggles my mom went through because she had stopped working to take care of her three kids and the house and things. Then my dad lost his job and all these other problems. And of course, issues between my parents that led to them being divorced. I just watched my mom struggle a lot with her finances without my father to help support her anymore, so I was very adamant about having my own support network and knowing that I’d be able to survive without, if things just didn’t work out or if we’d gotten divorced or something. I feel like I I kinda lost the thread there, what were we talking about?

11:06 Emily: What different housing decisions might you have made? This rolls into what housing decision did you make once you guys decided to split up. Have we concluded talking about all the intermingling that was going on prior to the breakup? Is that about what the full picture was?

11:24 Tina: Yeah, I think so. I think the point I was trying to get to earlier that I lost was we talked about if we broke up and especially when we actually did break up, there was like a couple of months of us discussing it before it actually happened. But we reaffirmed that if we broke up, we would continue paying for the apartment that same way. That I would still just be paying a third and that he would continue paying two thirds, and he ended up moving out since he had family and places to go here, and my nearest family members are in Florida. I stayed living in the apartment for a couple of months until the lease was resolved and he continued to pay that two thirds of the apartment. Thankfully that was something we had discussed and agreed upon long before the breakup.

Financial Ramifications of Breaking of The Engagement

12:08 Emily: Yeah. I think we can move into kind of talking about that second phase now. It sounds like it was a long conversation. You guys had a long relationship, you were on the track to getting married, this is not something to be undertaken lightly. So you were having these conversations over a relatively long period of time. And of course, one of your concerns was how do I provide for myself in this transition to not being in this partnership any longer? So one of the things that you discussed and agreed on was the rent split. What else did you have to do once you guys decided that this breakup is official, the engagement is off? What other things had to happen to fully separate from one another?

12:46 Tina: I think the housing was the biggest thing because we broke up before our lease expired. It was like this big burden and I talked to the landlord and he told us that if we could rent the apartment to somebody else, he’d be willing to terminate our lease. Actually, I got into like kind of a sticky situation that I didn’t have the emotional energy to deal with, but where he was like, okay, I’ll advertise the apartment, but I need you guys to show the apartment. Even after we had actually moved our stuff out and we’re no longer living there, he was still like, no, you guys have to show it, I’m not gonna drive over and show it. I was still devoting time and energy to that, and it ended up still being worth it. It took a couple months to rent the apartment to somebody else, but we managed to end the lease at least a month early. For me getting back that $800 was huge.

13:43 Emily: Yeah. So the housing situation was the main one. It sounds like your ex was pretty generous, or maybe you would say reasonable, right? He was okay with continuing to pay your agreed upon portions of the rent for the amount of time necessary, but you were still doing what you needed to do to get out of it as soon as possible.

Commercial

14:03 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude, the deadline for filing your federal tax return and making your quarters one and two estimated tax payments was extended to July 15th, 2020. I never expected to still be talking about taxes into the summer, but here we are. Post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows still need major help in this area because of their unique situation. I provide tons of support to PhD trainees preparing their tax returns and calculating their estimated tax. Go to PFforPhDs.com/tax to read my free articles and find out if one of my tax workshops is right for you. I have one workshop on how to prepare your annual tax return and one how to determine if you owe quarterly estimated tax. Both workshops include videos, supplemental documents, and live Q&A calls with me go to P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Making Budget Adjustments

15:19 Emily: So where did you move to and how did you find that next housing situation?

15:24 Tina: Yeah. So for me, I like living with other people. Actually I describe myself as painfully extroverted, so the first move was to find another roommate or find a roommate, I guess. A person in my cohort I had been spending some time with and was taking a class with and felt comfortable discussing some of my relationship stuff with, I mentioned to her like, yeah, I might be moving and looking for a new roommate soon. She was also in a housing situation, in grad student housing housing, which is really expensive here. I know Adriana, you interviewed awhile ago was living in like the family housing that’s highly subsidized, but my roommate was in the regular housing that’s like $1,300 per person per month, so not nearly as subsidized. Anyways, I found the person to live with, and then I was sort of waiting for her to finish up her paperwork to get released from her housing contract. And based on the new information I had of how much it was actually costing me to live in LA, I set a new budget of $1,100 a month for rent, and we found a two bedroom, two bathroom near campus, but far enough away that it was in our price range, and most importantly, for us, it had to be near a bus stop, so it was easy to get to campus.

16:44 Emily: Yeah. A couple of points I want to follow up within that. One is yes, I had that interview with Adriana and she was living in family housing for UCLA. I have another interview that’s been recorded, but not released as of the moment that we’re doing this interview, with Dr. Travis Seifman, and he is specifically talking about grad student housing. He’s lived in like a couple of different of the UC grad student housing, different universities. And then he’s also lived in graduate student housing at some other universities, including overseas. We have an extensive discussion around this, and one of the things that we talk about is his consternation around the price difference between family housing and single but roommates housing, and why is it that there’s such a price difference there. And so anyway, for any listeners who are particularly interested in that discussion, I’ll recommend that other interview. TBD when it will actually be published. Thanks for bringing that up.

17:39 Emily: One of the things I really like about the story is that, once you had been in LA, at UCLA for a year, you were able to, well, one, probably be more realistic about the amount of money you were able to pay in rent. Your budget went from $800 up to $1,100 per month. And then also, you found a person you wanted to live with and you guys probably had more at that point familiarity with the area and were able to do a housing search a little bit better than you could have from a distance. Of course that’s the case. My message, what I want to emphasize to listeners is that it’s a really good idea to reevaluate your housing, maybe after your first year of graduate school, whenever you’re thinking about housing in that second year, because you probably know a lot more about the area that you’ve moved to in that second iteration of the housing search. So how did that new higher rent fit in with your budget? What adjustments did you make to make that happen?

18:03 Tina: Yeah, I mean, I think I actually just had room for it. I had over budgeted other items. It took us a while to figure out the car insurance, and initially I was planning for my car insurance to double and instead it only gone up $30 and even then, it went up again when I had to separate my car insurance from my ex’s, but not as much as I was anticipating, so that was helpful. I think I ended up having to put a little bit less into savings, I think that’s where most of the difference came from. A couple of things that I have over head over budgeted initially, before I knew anything out here and then also pulling a little bit out of what I was contributing to my savings.

19:15 Emily: Another thing you did really well, there is to be sort of conservative in your estimates of your spending, in that you think you’re going to spend more than maybe you actually do, so you have that wiggle room for later adjustments within your budget.

Financial Life after the Break-up

19:27 Emily: Okay, we’ve gone through the breakup process and the separation from your ex, how are things looking in your finances today?

19:35 Tina: They’re looking okay. I just made a big purchase recently. I had a car that was a lease and I recently bought out my lease, and so that took a big chunk of my money. Basically, my car to buy out was like $12,000 with taxes and fees, and if I had been buying it from a used car dealership would have been closer to like $16,000, so it seemed like a pretty good deal. Especially since I could buy it out right, I’m not paying any interest on it. And the way I did that, is I had a considerable savings, just like paying out of my savings account. And so I paid for a third of the car, my father was able to contribute a third, and then another family member was able to lend me a third. So I did still take out a loan for my car, but from a family member who is lending it to me without any interest, of course.

20:27 Emily: Yeah. So that was a big chunk out of your funding, but that’s nice to not have that monthly expense. I mean, it’s still a monthly expense because you’re repaying the loan, but a much, much smaller one.

20:36 Tina: Yeah.

20:37 Emily: That is a great reduction in the rest of your spending. That’s great. It sounds like you and your ex were really thoughtful in this process. You had seen your parents get divorced and so you were keeping in your mind, this is a possibility. You’re going to move to LA, you’re going to live together, start commingling your finances. Maybe things won’t work out, you’re not married yet, and even after that, it still could not work out. It sounds like you did things pretty intelligently and carefully through this process, and so I think that you have like a positive example here of how this can happen, but is there anything that you, looking back, wish that you had done differently?

21:14 Tina: I think most of it was pretty settled. I wish I’d been a little bit more thoughtful about how we divided up and dealt with paying the wedding deposits, because that was a little bit of a thorn in my side when we were splitting up. And arguably my ex paid significantly more in the wedding deposits than I did, but he essentially, at the end of the day was the one who asked to call the wedding off, and so I requested that he pay me back for the wedding deposits that I had paid, which amounted to about a thousand dollars, which, again on a grad student income is a pretty significant chunk of money. And the message I got was, well, let’s see how long it takes you to move out of the apartment, and how much money is spent on the apartment, and then we can make this decision.

22:11 Tina: Then even though we saved more than that by moving out of the apartment early, then there was like some thorny issues about the engagement ring. So the engagement ring had been less than $2,000 and under the law in California, if the giver breaks off the engagement, the receiver legally owns the ring. Also my ex had told me, “oh, the ring is yours, it’s a gift to keep no matter what” and basically when I brought up the issue of my lost money on the wedding deposits, was told, “well, I let you keep the engagement ring, you should be able to sell that and recoup some of this money.” Then it turned out that he had super overpaid for the engagement ring and the money I can recoup from that is very little. I wish I had been a little bit more thoughtful about that sort of spending before we like commingled and talked a little bit more about what we would do in the situation where things broke off, but at the end of the day, I decided it wasn’t worth the emotional turmoil to be like, “well, this ring doesn’t actually cover my expenses, why don’t you take it back and you sell it and do this emotional labor and just give me my thousand dollars back.”

Navigating the Emotional Aspect of the Break-up

23:25 Emily: Yeah. I do want to come back to that point in a moment about the emotions of all of this, but I guess this is just kind of a point around splitting up in general is like, once you’re married, as you were just saying, there’s, there’s state laws that govern how relationships, how marriages separate, in terms of what’s done with the property. Sometimes it has to be figured out in court ultimately, and a lot of money can be spent on lawyers, but the really tricky thing is once you, if you’re not having that legal contract of marriage in place, and you guys were moving towards that, but not quite there yet, breaking out becomes a lot more murky. It’s something that becomes very individual and hard to navigate and something that takes a lot of energy. I just wanted to ask you, how did you manage to continue moving forward in your graduate program? Or did you? Obviously, you have ultimately, but did things stall a little bit as you’re going through this enormous personal upheaval?

24:22 Tina: I think there were two major things that helped me. There definitely was a little bit of a stalling point, but most directly related to grad school was talking to my advisor and telling him, “Hey, this is what’s going on. I’ve been a little mentally checked out because I’m trying to see whether or not my engagement is going to fall apart,” and thankfully, my advisor was very supportive of that. Around that time, actually, I had to turn in a 10 to 15 page written proposal as part of my first year requirements to slowly move towards eventually advancing to candidacy. So I talked to my advisor about it and basically just requested from my committee and extension and said, “Hey, here’s, what’s going on, can I have an extra month to turn this in?” And everybody on my committee was very supportive of that. That was number one.

25:13 Tina: Then number two was also just reaching out to friends and it took me a while to feel comfortable telling some of my lab mates and other people in grad school and just other friends I had met in the city, because at the time I had only been living here for about six months, so I didn’t have any real long-standing, deep relationships with anybody yet because I just didn’t have the time to establish them. But once I shared that information, everybody was super supportive. I actually learned that one of my grad school friends went through the same thing of also had an engagement end during her first year of grad school. They were super helpful. And then my longterm friends were unbelievably helpful. One actually flew out from Canada, where he was doing his PhD to come help me move.

26:02 Emily: Very, very sweet. Very, very wonderful to have that both new and old connections supporting you through that time. Plus, for me, this part of your story, when you were talking with your advisor and committee hearkens back to when you entered graduate school. You didn’t have to conform to the standard procedures in place for applying to graduate school. You realize, “Hey, yeah, this is a requirement in the first year, but maybe they can be flexible with me, and I’m just going to ask about it because what’s the harm in asking?” I mean, your advisor’s probably noticing that you’re not totally engaged anyway. It just comes back to that point that you are doing a great job kind of advocating for yourself and making things happen for you, and people can be accommodating if you ask them in the right way.

Best Financial Advice for Other PhDs

26:45 Emily: Tina, with the end of this interview, I’m going to ask you a question that I ask of all of my interviewees, which is what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be related to the conversation that we’ve had today or could be completely something else.

27:01 Tina: I think actually it kind of ties into our last point of just like asking for help, of just reaching out to people and saying, “Hey, I don’t know what I’m doing, please help me.” I realized in the last couple months that investing has been a big hole for me, and I’ve been talking to one, actually one of my closest friends of over a decade and only recently learned that investing as a hobby of his. And then also like friends who are very good cooks. I never really learned how to cook as a kid growing up, so now I’m saving money by cooking at home a lot more. Just reach out to friends or coworkers or whatever and say, “Hey, I think you’re really great at this thing. I’ve noticed you seem to be really good with your money, or you’re really great at cooking, or you’re really great at this thing — how did you learn that? I’d really love to learn from you.

27:51 Emily: Nobody’s going to say no to a request phrase that way, absolutely. Wonderful, wonderful tip. And actually I know from Twitter that you are starting investing yourself and that you are listening to a podcast that really pushed you to do that — you want to mention that podcast and what you like about it?

28:08 Tina: Oh, sure. Yeah, you and I have been corresponding a little bit over Twitter and another podcast I had discovered that’s really helpful is called “Bad with Money” with Gaby Dunn. Part of what I really like about it is that I grew up with not knowing a whole lot about money and feeling like a little bit ashamed of that and just kind of feeling the differences in class, especially having gone to a private university for undergrad and my family had lost their house and lost our cars right before I went to undergrad. I just felt very distant and ashamed and all these bad emotions about money. Listening to Gaby’s podcast and being like,” Oh, it’s not just me, there are other people who feel very left out of the system,” made me feel a lot more comfortable talking about it.

28:57 Emily: That’s fantastic. Thank you so much for that recommendation. And Tina, thank you so much for this conversation today. I am sure that it is helping people in the audience who are maybe considering a breakup, or trying to navigate one, or trying to recover financially from having been through one recently, so I really appreciate your willingness to talk about this.

29:15 Tina: Great. Thanks so much for having me on Emily.

Outtro

43:30 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How This Grad Student Fellow Invests for Retirement and Pays Quarterly Estimated Tax

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In this episode, Emily interviews Lucy Capano, a rising fourth-year PhD student at Washington University in St. Louis. Since she started her graduate program, Lucy has been funded by a non-W-2 fellowship and training grant, which has affected her financial practices of retirement investing and paying income tax. Lucy and Emily discuss what changed for 2020 to permit fellowship recipients like Lucy to use an IRA and how Lucy handles calculating, saving for, and paying quarterly estimated tax to the IRS. Lucy shares her motivation for pursuing saving and debt repayment goals while in graduate school and her surprising best financial advice for another graduate student.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

fellowship tax investing

Teaser

00:00 Lucy: That amount would automatically withdraw to that separate checking account that I didn’t really use for anything. And then at the end of three months, when it was time to pay quarterly taxes, I knew I had that amount and I was not worried about it. Right? I never even saw it in my regular checking. It only went into that secondary checking account.

Intro

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode nine, and today my guest is Lucy Capano, a rising fourth-year PhD student at Washington University in St. Louis. Lucy has been funded by non-W2 fellowships and training grants since she started her graduate program, which has affected her financial practices of retirement investing and paying income tax. We discuss what changed for 2020 to permit fellowship recipients like Lucy to use an IRA, and how Lucy handles calculating, saving for, and paying quarterly estimated tax to the IRS. Lucy shares her motivation for pursuing saving and debt repayment goals while in graduate school and her surprising best financial advice for another graduate student. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Lucy Capano.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:21 Emily: I’m delighted to welcome to the podcast today Lucy Capano who’s a rising fourth-year PhD student at Washington University in St. Louis, and we are talking about my two favorite subjects in one episode, investing and taxes, particularly for graduate students, maybe postdocs as well. So, Lucy, would you please tell the audience a little bit about yourself?

01:38 Lucy: Yeah, I’d love to. My name is Lucy, like Emily said, I’m very grateful to be here. I study neurodegenerative diseases and the age-associated causes that could be implementing them in the human brain. And we have a really cool protocol, but this is not about science. This is about taxes and budgeting because as a graduate student, we have a very limited income, and really, depending on where you are, you can have excess, or you can be really, really tight-budgeted. And it took me two-and-a-half years to really figure out where I needed to be. And so, why would I keep that information to myself? I think we should be sharing it.

Estimated Taxes on Non-W2 Fellowship Income

02:19 Emily: Yeah, I see we have a similar mission! So glad to have you on the podcast. So, your personal story, when you started graduate school, you had what I call non-W2 fellowship income. Can you talk a little bit more about that and why that was particularly financially challenging and odd at that time?

02:36 Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. As a first-year, I came in, and generally, that one is non-W2, and then I was immediately transferred to a training grant, which again means that I’m on a non-W2. So, that means my taxes that I would need to pay annually to the government are not taken out of my paycheck automatically. So, I get the full, gross amount given to me, and then I need to section portions of it to be able to pay estimated taxes. So, estimated taxes are due every quarter, April 15th. Oh my gosh. Am I going to get these dates right?

03:12 Emily: I have them. It’s mid-April, mid-June, mid-September, and mid-January, except in 2020 the first two quarters–so what would usually be mid-April and mid-June–have now been bumped back to that July 15th, 2020 annual tax due date. So, three types of tax stuff all due on the same day in 2020, but you got a little bit of a reprieve. So yeah, go ahead. It’s weird, right? It’s three–two–three–four months in length throughout the year. That’s why I also had trouble remembering this for like the first couple of years.

03:44 Lucy: The July has definitely been throwing me off because I’m used to June and now we’ve got July. So, when you get this money, how do you even make sure that you’ve got enough to pay per quarter? And do you want to do it all upfront, which you can totally do? Do you want to actually do it by quarter and hope that you remember? There’s a lot of ways to tackle it. You just need to find what works best.

Grad School Pay Frequency and Investment Goals

04:05 Emily: And so for you, are you being paid monthly? Or what is your pay frequency?

04:10 Lucy: We are paid on the last business day of the month. So, everything comes to me in one large lump sum. And that’s also slightly problematic, right? You need to be able to budget so that your entire month can be paid without overdoing it while waiting for that monthly paycheck to come in.

04:28 Emily: Yeah. Pay frequency is one of these really weird things about graduate school, where most people I think are once per month, but there are some people every two weeks or bi-monthly. And then there are some people on fellowship who receive an entire term’s worth of income two, three times a year. So, that’s a whole other sort of budgeting challenge. It’s nice that you get it up front, but it also causes problems. But that’s what I was wondering about when you mentioned paying the estimated tax. So, let’s talk a little bit more about estimate tax at the end of the interview and switch to talking about investing. So, when you started graduate school, what was your situation around investing? Was it a goal of yours, and were you able to do it?

05:06 Lucy: Yeah, so I moved here from an East Coast city. I’m now in the Midwest, and I love the East Coast, but it is not cheap. Just like the West Coast. And so, we pretty much didn’t have any disposable income. It was paycheck to paycheck. I was working both my lab tech job and a supplemental just to help kind of keep us afloat. And so when we moved here, the cost of living is a lot less. And so, we actually had a surplus after a certain bit of time. You know, after all the moving expenses when we paid those off. And the problem became, I always knew that I wanted to save for retirement and start savings, but I kind of didn’t know where to start. And in addition to that, I had never really had excess money before.

05:52 Lucy: And so a lot of money was escaping places that I didn’t really notice it was escaping. And that was kind of the big “Aha” moment for us was when we shifted. And I’m saying “we,” I live with my partner, we’ve been together for quite some time, was realizing that we had to make a decision. Do we want to go out to eat a bunch of times this month? Or do we want to have the retirement savings and the flexible savings accounts that will get us to the goals that we want, which is probably to move back to a coast, which again, not cheap. So, we need to do a lot of good saving while we’re here.

Retirement Investment: IRAs

06:33 Emily: So, was retirement investing in particular on your mind at that point?

06:38 Lucy: Yeah, so I had worked a number of jobs before coming to grad school. So, I had a 403(b), which is the nonprofit version of a 401(k), and I also had a Roth IRA from that same time. But when I became a graduate student in 2017, I knew that I couldn’t contribute with any of my stipend. So, I couldn’t do much other than build kind of the flexible savings that you keep within your bank account. And so, I knew I was just kind of in limbo and I was going to live there. And then in 2019, the SECURE Act was passed. And that changed the game for graduate students.

07:14 Emily: Yeah. Just to go back and explain that a little bit further because still a lot of people are kind of unaware of all these different laws and so forth. So, 2019 and prior, I think going back to like the eighties, the 1980s, what I referred to earlier, non-W2 fellowship income–so, any kind of fellowship training grant income that you get that’s not on a W2–at that point was not eligible to be contributed to an IRA. It was not considered taxable compensation or earned income. So, that was the situation until the SECURE Act passed. Not to say that everyone receiving that kind of income was totally unable to contribute because if you had a side hustle you could, if you were married to someone with taxable compensation you could, so there were some workarounds. But for plenty of people, it was just a hard “No.” If your stipend, your non-W2 fellowship stipend was your only income in the course of the calendar year, nope. An IRA was not an option for you. But pick up again, please with what the SECURE Act did.

How the SECURE Act Supports Grad Student and Postdoc Savings

08:06 Lucy: Yeah. So, the SECURE Act stands for Setting Every Community Up for Retirement Enhancement Act, which is great. I love that it ends on enhancement and then adds the Act back in. And what it says is that the term compensation shall include any amount, which is included in the individual’s gross income and paid to the individual to aid the individual in the pursuit of graduate or postdoctoral study. So, that meant that anything that I could claim as my gross individual income was now able to be used to be saved for retirement.

08:45 Emily: I think that was always a point of confusion prior to 2019, is that, wait, wait a second. My income as a graduate student is taxable? Like I have to pay income tax on this, and yet, I am not allowed to contribute to an IRA? It was very incongruous, hard for people to understand. It was there in black and white in the tax code. It was unambiguous, but it’s just a hard thing logically to come to grips with. So, it’s so great that the SECURE Act, which originally this Act was called the Graduate Student Savings Act, and then it was folded into the SECURE Act. I have a great podcast episode from last fall–two, actually–that I did on the SECURE Act’s passage. So, I’ll include those in the show notes in case you want to go back in time and listen to those. But yeah, end of the day, the great news is starting in 2020, people like you with only this type of non-W2 fellowship income, now you can contribute to an IRA again. So, have you been? How are the savings going?

09:37 Lucy: Yeah, great. We absolutely have started putting money into the Roth. It’s important to start early, right? In high school, we learned about compound interest and investing, and the earlier you start, the more you get out of it in the end. And so, when we talk about budgeting, we usually try to have around–I was taught about six months of your important and unmovable expenses, right? Your rent, your car, your car insurance, whatever else you may have that you know you have to spend monthly in a savings account. But then after that, there’s no point in continuing to build that up. That stuff should now move to retirement savings and kind of investment options. So, now we have automatic, biweekly–which is every two weeks because biweekly is a fun word–directly into the Roth IRA account for me and both my partner. And so, then I go in and I take those and I apply them directly to whichever funds I want to purchase with that.

Why Make Retirement Savings a Priority During Grad School?

10:38 Emily: Yeah. That’s awesome. Can you expand a little bit more about why it is important for you? Like why you have decided to make retirement savings a priority during graduate school? When, first of all, I mean, yeah, we need to acknowledge a lot of people can’t. You said that earlier. Some people are just plain not paid enough. That’s an unfortunate reality of some programs underpaying their students. But for the people who are able to, it might not necessarily be a goal. Maybe they want to do some other things with their money. So, can you expand a little bit more on why this early start is so important?

11:10 Lucy: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. It is definitely personal preference, right? Some people it’s just not on the radar and that’s alright if that’s what makes you feel comfortable. But for me, with the experience that I’ve had growing up and the experience that my partner’s family has had. I think it’s just so important to have that kind of a safety net for when retirement occurs. Both my parents are now retired. They go on trips whenever they feel like it because they have a really wonderful nest egg of savings and retirement funds that they can pull from at any time. And thankfully, they are very comfortable in that regard. And the earlier you start, like I said earlier, it compounds, right? So, every dollar that my Roth IRA makes, I have it reinvesting automatically. Because that’s just more money that gets to live there and build through the market value.

12:02 Emily: I, like you, worked only for one year before I started graduate school. And during that time, I embarked on learning about personal finance and I read this, “Oh, you have to save 10% of your gross income for retirement” rule. And I love rules. So, I was on it. It was challenging, but I was determined to do it. And I kept that up during graduate school. Thankfully, I, like you, also lived in sort of a moderate cost-of-living area and my stipend was fine for there. And so, obviously in more expensive places, as you were mentioning earlier, graduate student stipends don’t really get that much higher. So, it’s quite challenging there, but I was in a good position in that case. So, I was investing for retirement all through graduate school, as well as building up some other kinds of savings.

Investing in Your Future Positively Impacts Your Present

12:44 Emily: And I just have to make a plug for this in case anyone listening to this is not that motivated around it. Because what we found, my husband and I, who was also a graduate student at that time, not only is this like you’re saving and you’re investing for the far-off future, but it actually had an impact in the here and now. Well, after a few years after we really saw the balances building up, and that was actually during quite a strong, bold market. So, the compound returns were coming fast and furious. When we got out of graduate school, we had quite a good nest egg, both in our retirement accounts, and also in cash. And it actually enabled us to make more risky career decisions than we would have otherwise that were actually very well-suited for us. So, having that security of something that we had built during graduate school to be able to fall back on in case that risky decision didn’t turn out so well, that was instrumental in us actually making those decisions to go for our maximum career fulfillment, even at these riskier kinds of jobs. Obviously, I’m referring to my business, which is quite a risky endeavor, especially at the beginning. So, that’s kind of how I found that this mattered for me even decades earlier than I expected it to.

13:54 Lucy: Yeah, we have always known that we would like a house. And in order to have a house, you have to have a down payment. And in order to have a down payment, you have to have savings for it. Right? And there are certain rules surrounding specific savings or retirement accounts like Roth IRAs, where you can actually withdraw a certain portion for a first-time home purchase. So, there are absolutely benefits, and who doesn’t want to imagine being 70 and being like, “I’m just gonna fly to some beach and sit down and have a cocktail.” Right? That sounds really nice. It’s hard to imagine at this current time, but it is going to happen again.

14:34 Emily: True. We are recording this in May, 2020. Yes. Enough said there.

Commercial

14:43 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. The deadline for filing your federal tax return and making your quarters one and two estimated tax payments was extended to July 15th, 2020. I never expected to still be talking about taxes into the summer, but here we are. Postbac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows still need major help in this area because of their unique situation. I provide tons of support to PhD trainees preparing their tax returns and calculating their estimated tax. Go to pfforphds.com/tax to read my free articles and find out if one of my tax workshops is right for you. I have one workshop on how to prepare your annual tax return, and one on how to determine if you owe quarterly estimated tax. Both workshops include videos, supplemental documents, and live Q&A calls with me. Go to P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now, back to the interview.

Strategies for Handling Estimated Tax

16:00 Emily: Okay. I want to return to the situation around estimated tax. If you wouldn’t mind explaining a little bit more about how, you know, you said earlier that your mileage may vary, people handle estimated tax in different ways. I’m curious, what is the best solution that you’ve come to for handling your estimated tax?

16:18 Lucy: Yeah, I was kind of pseudo-mentored by another graduate student, and he was always on this camp that he would save up four or five thousand dollars and pay his entire year’s estimated tax in January of the start of that year. And he would send in four different checks, one with each estimated tax document. And that would be it for the entire year. Now, at the time that he was trying to convince me of that, we did not have that kind of money. And so then I had to find some other way. And of course, I have an old checking account from when I was in high school. And so, what I decided to do was I calculated my estimated tax. Those forms look scary. They’re not that bad. Talk to somebody, talk to your friends, somebody knows how to do it. And once I had kind of figured out my estimated tax, I said, “Okay, well, this divided by four is, let’s say $400. And a quarter of the year is three months. Right? Okay. So, now I have $400, divided by three is, whatever. I can’t do math on the fly like this, but that amount would automatically withdraw to that separate checking account that I didn’t really use for anything. And then at the end of three months, when it was time to pay quarterly taxes, I knew I had that amount and I was not worried about it. Right? I never even saw it in my regular checking. It only we went to that secondary checking account.

17:38 Emily: Yeah. This system that you’re describing is absolutely the one that I recommend. Actually, I featured it in a past interview as well, which I’ll link from the show notes. The interview is with Lourdes Bobbio, and she is an NDSEG fellow. And so, this is exactly what she did to handle her estimated tax. It’s what I did in graduate school as well, and still do, because as a business owner, I also pay quarterly estimated tax. So, I think it’s a perfect system. It’s actually the one that I kind of recommend for everyone. Like you said, to pay all of your estimated tax upfront is a really high amount of savings to have on hand which would be unusual. So, that’s not for everyone.

PF for PhDs Resources on Estimated Tax

18:20 Emily: By the way, I do have a resource on estimated tax. I have a couple, so I’ll link them from the show notes, but if you also just want to go to pfforphds.com/tax, I have an article there called, “The Complete Guide to Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients,” free article. And I also have a paid workshop. You can join anytime throughout the year. And I have videos that I’ve recorded. There’s like a spreadsheet that is included with that. And I also do live Q&A calls every quarter to answer any kind of final questions you have after you’ve gone through the material. So, that would be a great one to join if estimated tax is a concern for you.

18:53 Emily: As you said, Lucy, look at form 1040-ES if you think you can handle it, fine. It’s really not that hard for fellowship recipients, but I do know some people get a little intimidated. They want that live support. So, like you said, you know, you can turn to–I really hesitate, actually, to say to turn to a friend, because this is an area that people mess up a lot. It sounds like you got really good counsel, but you never know. You don’t know what you don’t know. Right? And so you don’t know if counsel that you’re receiving is good or not. So, I’ll just say, come to me, come to my site. I have the references for you. Yes, listen to your classmates, but trust, but verify. Let me put it that way. When it comes to tax and rumors running around graduate schools.

19:34 Lucy: Yeah. We just recently were talking about taxes with some of our upcoming, or now upcoming second years, asking them how they did and what they felt like, and how we can support them in the future. And they were like, “Oh my God, estimated taxes.” And then it was just like a flurry of papers and pens. And imagine that kind of cartoony instance. And it ended up half of them just decided they weren’t going to pay it because they weren’t sure what to do. And then two of them overpaid by $2,000, which I’m not really sure how that’s possible on our current stipend. Because I think we pay less than $5,000 a year. So, I’m not sure what they were doing for that one quarter, but they totally miscalculated, which is perfectly fine. But that is when finding a resource like Emily might be really helpful if you just don’t want to worry about it. You can go to her. I mean, I’ve never used Emily. I’m sure she’s great. But she seems to know what she’s talking about. And so, if you just don’t want to worry about it, if you pay a little bit upfront, you don’t have to worry long term.

Use Your School’s Tax Resources or Bring in an Outside Expert

20:34 Emily: Yeah. And I also love, you know, you mentioned before we started the recording that your university of WashU is providing–and in particular, your program is providing tax support in the form of workshops, which is amazing. Anyone who’s in a program in a school that does that, I definitely encourage you to attend one of those seminars. If no one is doing it and you feel competent, you can always try to start it doing some peer support in that area. And hey, I am also available and I have a live seminar that’s sort of a live version of the tax workshop that I just mentioned. So, if you want to bring in an outside person and you have a budget, I am available to do that. Because this is such, I mean, this is an area that, I cannot tell you the number of people I talk to every tax season who have maybe been surprised by, “Oh, it’s April and turns out I owe all this tax that I thought was being withheld from my paycheck, but it turns out it wasn’t,” that’s a really tough situation to be in.

21:28 Emily: I’ve talked to people who have gone three, four, five years of that happening and just wake up to the fact that they have all these back taxes. That is so tough. And you know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of care. So, we can just say again, if you’re on fellowship, if you’re on a training grant, look into estimated tax, it’s possible, you won’t have to pay them in your first year. Don’t forget about them. Look again in the second year, it could come up at that point. So, please tell your friends. Tell your friends about estimated tax. Send them this podcast episode. And as I was just saying, look for resources at your university. They may be there, or you may be able to start them or bring them in.

22:03 Lucy: And even if they don’t have them, you can let them know that it’s something that the students are interested in. Right? So, I’m the co-director of a student body group, and that’s what we do. We think students need this, so we advocate for that with the administration. And unless they know, they’re not going to be thinking about kind of dealing with this type of stuff.

Any Other Financial Goals?

22:25 Emily: Yeah. I think actually taxes at the graduate student level got a lot more attention after the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act passed because there were those couple months where we thought maybe tuition waivers would be taxed, so anyway, it got a lot of attention. I think after the Act ultimately passed, which thankfully did not have that provision in it, people were just a little bit more aware like, “Oh, okay, I have to deal with taxes. Maybe there are some resources out there that can help.” So, going back to your personal story Lucy, aside from the retirement investing, which is incredible and awesome that you’re doing that, you mentioned saving up for a house. Do you have any other financial goals that you’re going to be working on for the remainder of graduate school?

23:04 Lucy: I mean, really, it’s trying to find that financial stability that we couldn’t find while we lived on the East Coast. So, we were building that initial six-month-ish nest egg that you might want to refer to it as. Now, that’s done. So, we’ve shifted to building kind of the large expense nest egg, right? Like, the next time we have to buy a car, if our fridge breaks, right? Those things that you never want to have to think about, but they absolutely exist within life. And at the same time, we also obviously are working to pay off student loans. And we are working to invest in retirement. It seems like that’s not really feasible, and I’ll be completely honest, I put $50 in every week to that large expense. That’s not a lot, but assuming, and this is all assuming I don’t have a large expense for a couple of years, I’m going to have plenty of money in that.

Even a Little Bit (of Savings) Matters

23:58 Lucy: So, even a little bit matters. You might think $20 doesn’t matter to a Roth IRA, but it does build up. Slow and steady, it builds up. Can you imagine $20 every week over the course of however long your PhD is? I don’t want to say a number because it jinxes us all, but it’s really important to start kind of building these ideas because you don’t want to be caught out in the rain.

24:19 Emily: It sounds like you really have been able to accomplish a lot with the stipend. And I think your experience of moving from a higher cost of living area to St. Louis is really helpful in that way. Unfortunately, a lot of students go the other way and they end up in Boston, New York, San Francisco from a less expensive place. And it’s jarring that way, too. So, you put in your time in the higher cost of living cities and then experienced a bit of relief moving to St. Louis. That’s really great. And you know, I totally agree that even these small amounts of money make a huge difference given enough time. And as you were saying, the PhD is actually pretty significant amount of time. Over the course of five plus years, it can really add up, like it did for me and my husband. And so, anyway, I’m just really pleased to hear that you’re making your stipend work for you so effectively. That’s wonderful.

Best Advice for an Early-Career PhD

25:10 Emily: So, as we’re finishing up the interview, this is a question that I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve mentioned in the course of the interview, or it could be something completely else.

25:23 Lucy: Yeah. I have to fully admit it’s an allowance. Like, I’m over 30 and I have an allowance. When we finally had kind of spare money, every month I would go on and get a graph at the top of my bank account that shows me my personal value and it would stay flat. And I’m like, “What are we spending our money on? This doesn’t make any sense. Okay, I bought this. Okay, I bought that. But it’s really not that bad.” So, we decided to implement an allowance. We’re two over 30-year-olds with an allowance. I mean, I can’t say that enough. And what we figured out was, “Do I really want to spend the money on this, right? Is this really what’s going to make me happy where I can’t necessarily save for retirement?” Which again is my goal. “Is this a thing that I need?” And it really showed us where our money was going, which was just little knickknacks and doodads. And after a year of that allowance, our personal value went up by like $3,000 because we weren’t accidentally spending $500 a month on whatever we felt like. And so, I recommend it. It’s hard and weird to say, but I recommend allowances. It keeps you a little bit honest about it. We have a post-it note on our fridge and we have to write everything we purchase that is for us specifically and not household.

Give Yourself an Allowance for Discretionary Funding

26:48 Emily: So, I want to make sure that I understand what you mean by allowance. So, what you’re saying is like, aside from the necessary expenses, and as you were just mentioning household joint expenses, allowance is, it sounds like something that is just for you as an individual. And it’s probably discretionary, is that right? And as long as you fit it within your allowance every month, or maybe you build up a balance over some time, as long as the purchase fits within that, you’re good to go. If not, you have to say, “Well, I need to wait on it.” Is that right?

27:16 Lucy: Right. Exactly. So, you know, let’s say you’re going to a conference and you need a new suit jacket. That does not count as an allowance. That’s something that’s important for your personal development. Let’s say there’s a really cute dress that has just come out from your favorite company. That is not something that’s related to household or even professional development. So, that’s probably going to go on allowance. I just spent actually the last of my allowance already on a gift for a friend for her birthday. I knew it was something I wanted to do. And so, that was in my budget for the month, or my allowance for the month.

27:55 Emily: Yeah. So, it’s kind of just another way of framing budgeting. Like it’s just a more like catch-all category and you’ve specified it just for you as an individual. I know you’ve mentioned your partner. I mentioned my husband. Like the whole couple money management thing, people do it a lot of different ways. And you really have to find what works for you. I know my experience in graduate school, my husband and I were both graduate students and didn’t have a lot of discretionary income. And so, we didn’t use the allowance system, but it was kind of because there wasn’t that much money left for an allowance after we were doing all of the goals and all the joint spending. So, thankfully we found a way to navigate that over time. But yeah, I think if we had had a little bit more discretionary income, having some autonomy over that money because we do keep joint finances, but having some autonomy over a portion of it, that’s a system that works very, very well for a lot of people. So, I’m really glad you brought it up. Well, Lucy, this has been just a delight and I’m so glad that you came on the podcast. And I hope to have a chance to meet you in person before too long. Because it sounds like you’re doing some incredible work there with your program at WashU. So, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story and sharing your expertise in this area.

29:03 Lucy: Thank you for having me. It’s such an important component of life and graduate school for those that are interested. And I appreciate that you exist and you’ve been thinking about this and building things around it because it didn’t really seem like it existed when I first started.

29:19 Emily: Sounds good. Thank you so much.

29:21 Lucy: Thanks, Emily.

Outtro

29:23 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Financially Manage a Once-Per-Term Fellowship Paycheck

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In some PhD programs, graduate students on fellowship are paid only once per semester or trimester, between 2 and 4 times per year. This pay frequency engenders unique challenges and opportunities for those PhD students. The less frequent your pay, the more dire the consequences can be if you don’t manage it satisfactorily. This article will walk you through all the areas of financial management that you need to consider when you only receive one fellowship paycheck every three to six months.

financially manage once per semester trimester fellowship

The Good News

Fellowship (and training grant) income is different from most income. I call it “awarded income” as it is technically not given in exchange for work. On the other hand, “employee income” is what you receive for work, such as research (a research assistantship) or teaching (a teaching assistantship).

Some universities use these terms differently, but at the end of the day the way to differentiate them is by what tax form you do or do not receive at tax time. Employee income is reported on a Form W-2, and awarded income is not.

In a typical employer-employee relationship, the employee works and then receives their pay after the pay period has ended, whether that is weekly, biweekly, semimonthly, or monthly.

Because fellowship income is awarded and does not have to follow a period of work, it can be awarded at any time.

Since your fellowship income is awarded once per term, the good news is that you’re receiving that income up front, in a sense. You receive the income near the start of the multi-month period that it is intended to fund, which I’ll call the budgeting period in this post.

That’s the good news: You receive your income at the start of your budgeting period in a sense, instead of at the end of a pay period. That makes the transition onto fellowship income much easier since you do receive a lump sum up front. However, the corollary is that coming off of this type of income can be very difficult—more on that later.

When Exactly Will Your Paychecks Arrive?

As soon as you find out that you are switching to a once-per-term pay frequency, you should inquire about the date on or by which you can expect to receive your paycheck and whether you have to do anything to trigger its payout.

Often, the answer will be vague, for instance a range of a couple weeks or even a month. If it is specific, ask if fellowship pay has ever been doled out late—this is a good question to ask the administration as well as your fellow PhD students.

Then, no matter the information you are given, build into your plans that the pay might come at the end of the stated range or some time after the stated date.

I have heard horror stories from graduate students whose once-per-term fellowship income arrived weeks later than the date they were told, and sometimes that the student had to request a “refund” from the Bursar’s office before it was paid (of which they were not informed in advance).

It’s quite unlikely that an employer would issue their employee’s paychecks late. But again, this is awarded income, so the same rules are necessarily in place.

When it comes to your paycheck dates, play “offense” by being proactive about finding out the above information and taking any steps you are supposed to, but also play “defense” by reserving within your own finances the ability to pay for your expenses for an extra few weeks or month in case your next paycheck does arrive after you expected it to.

In What Amount(s) Will the Paychecks Be?

When you found out that you won your fellowship, you were certainly told its value, i.e., how much money you would be paid over the course of a year.

However, your fellowship award might not be distributed to you evenly throughout the year. If nothing else, it’s common for the summer term to be paid at a lower (even zero!) or higher level than the academic year.

Another consideration is whether you are responsible for paying any fees or similar out of your pocket. In the case of fellowship income, those fees might be automatically deducted from your award before it is distributed to you, which can be jarring if you are not expecting it.

Income Tax

With this type of once-per-term fellowship income chances are good that your university/institute is not withholding income tax on your behalf. (If it is, you can disregard this section!)

If no income tax is withheld from your fellowship paychecks, you have two important money management tasks to accomplish:

  1. Calculate and set aside the right amount of money to pay your eventual income tax bills.
  2. Determine if you are required to pay quarterly estimated tax.

Basically, in step 1, you’re estimating the amount of tax you’ll have to pay, and in step 2, you’re figuring out when you have to pay it (quarterly or yearly).

The best way to accomplish both with respect to your federal tax (you may also be responsible for paying state tax!) is to fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on p. 8 of Form 1040-ES. If that seems intimidating to you at all, please check out my resources to assist you and provide workarounds:

Step 1: Estimate Your Tax Bill

Sign up below to receive by email a spreadsheet that helps you with estimating your federal tax due for the year and how much you should save from each of your paychecks. You’ll receive follow-up emails explaining more about how taxes work for fellowships and then be subscribed to my mailing list!

Step 2: Determine If You Must Pay Quarterly Estimated Tax

It’s very common for fellowship recipients, if they are on fellowship for a full calendar year, to be required to pay quarterly estimated tax. Basically, instead of your employer (if you had one) sending the IRS a slice of each of your paychecks automatically, you receive your full pay and have to make manual payments to the IRS.

The Estimated Tax Worksheet on p. 8 of Form 1040-ES will definitively tell you if you are required to pay your estimated tax quarterly or if you can pay your full bill when you file your annual tax return.

If this is daunting to you, I recommend that you sign up for my workshop, which assists fellows in exactly your situation. It walks you through how to fill out every single line of the Estimated Tax Worksheet and covers several special scenarios that are common to PhD students, such as what to do when you switch on or off of fellowship midway through the calendar year. I even outline a shortcut method that allows you to skip filling out most of the form and still avoid being penalized by the IRS!

How to Manage Spending

The most common question I hear regarding once-per-semester or once-per-trimester fellowship income is, “How do I budget with this infrequent income?”

Yes, it is a good thing that this money is paid in a lump sum up front, but it does put a lot more responsibility on the graduate student than they may have bargained for.

Budgeting Regular Expenses

A robust budget is even more vital for a fellow in this situation than it is for a person receiving more frequent paychecks. While Americans living paycheck-to-paycheck might experience a few days of austerity when it turns out there is “more month than money,” in your case overspending could require weeks of austerity, which is rather infeasible.

What I mean by a budget in this case is to predict very well the expenses you will incur over the course of your budgeting period plus an extra few weeks or month.

Those expenses include all your regular and necessary fixed expenses (e.g., rent, fixed-rate utilities, insurance premiums, subscriptions) and variable expenses (e.g., groceries, utilities billed by usage). They also include what you project that your regular discretionary expenses will be (e.g., eating out, entertainment, shopping).

Budgeting Irregular Expenses

Irregular expenses are expenses that you incur once per year or a few times per year.

Examples of irregular expense categories are:

  • University bills, e.g., tuition, fees, health insurance premium, textbooks, parking permits
  • Insurance premiums paid yearly or every six months
  • Car maintenance/repairs
  • Travel
  • Electronics
  • Moving expenses
  • Household furnishings
  • Tax

Irregular expenses end to trip up graduate students for two reasons:

  1. The expenses tend to be large relative to a graduate student’s cash flow.
  2. Graduate students are often relatively new to budgeting and managing money, so they don’t have past experience to rely on to predict these expenses.

If a graduate student identifies this kind of expense as a budgeting issue, I recommend that they create a system of targeted savings accounts to help predict and save up in advance for the irregular expenses in their life.

You can read more about how to create this type of system in this podcast episode: How to Solve the Problem of Irregular Expenses.

Essentially, you create a unique savings account for each category of expenses and save regularly into that account, pulling money from it only when you incur a related expense.

The advantage that you have in receiving your income for several months up front is that you can also fund your targeted savings accounts up front, at least for the several-month period that your paycheck covers.

Account Structure

I really believe in setting up checking and savings accounts to serve your needs, not simply following the crowd—hence the system of targeted savings accounts I just reviewed.

While I imagine some people can keep all of their fellowship income in their checking account and draw it down over the course of the semester or trimester without running out of money or making sub-optimal financial decisions… I wouldn’t risk it!

Many graduate students I speak with who have once-per-term fellowship income use a separate savings account to hold the bulk of their paycheck and pay themselves a salary of sorts with a once-per-month automated transfer.

While this system simulates a monthly paycheck, it doesn’t take advantage of the unique property of receiving the large paycheck up front.

Instead, what I would do is set up several accounts (you might need to use two banks for this!):

  • One checking account for your monthly expenses that are fixed or only vary slightly with usage, e.g., rent, utilities, subscriptions. You should set up auto-drafts to pay these bills directly from this account.
  • One checking account for your variable and discretionary spending, e.g., groceries, eating out, entertainment, shopping. You can spend directly from this account and/or use it to pay your credit cards.
  • One savings account that holds the part of your fellowship paycheck that you will draw down.
  • Your set of targeted savings accounts.

Here is how I propose that you use this set of accounts:

  1. When you receive your fellowship paycheck, deposit it into your ‘monthly bills’ checking account.
  2. Calculate using your budget the amount of money you will spend on those necessary monthly expenses throughout your budgeting period; round up or leave some buffer. This amount will stay in this checking account, and all those monthly bills will be paid from this account.
  3. Transfer the rest of the income to the savings account for holding it over the budgeting period.
  4. Fund your targeted savings accounts according to your calculations for your irregular expenses.
  5. Above a certain buffer amount of money, divide the balance in your holding account by the number of weeks in your budgeting period. Set up an auto-transfer to move this amount of money from savings to your variable and discretionary spending checking account. That is the amount of money you can spend that week on the categories it covers.
  6. Pull money from your targeted savings accounts into your checking account as needed to cover your planned-for irregular expenses.
  7. Repeat every time you receive a fellowship paycheck.

While somewhat complex, the advantage of this system is that it helps you make spending decisions across three time frames: yearly (for the targeted savings), monthly (for the monthly bills), and weekly (for the variable and discretionary spending), which are otherwise difficult to synthesize.

Reaching Long-Term Financial Goals

In the budgeting exercise I outlined above, I did not include any line items for saving or repaying debt. While these steps are out of reach for graduate students who are paid only enough to survive (or not even that much), as a fellowship recipient, you might have more financial wherewithal.

If you are being paid above the local living wage or more than your peers who are not on fellowship, I encourage you to set a monetary financial goal so that you come out of graduate school with more money to your name than you went in with.

If you don’t yet have any emergency savings, make a ‘starter’ emergency fund your #1 goal! Open up yet another savings account and nickname it ‘Emergency Fund.’ Contribute money to it until you reach at least $1,000 and perhaps up to two months of expenses. When you are just getting started with savings, this Emergency Fund can double as your in-case-my-paycheck-is-late fund, but as you create more financial wherewithal, they should add on top of each other.

After that, your goal might be to increase your emergency fund to 3-6 months of expenses, pay off debt, or invest for retirement or other goals.

You can still accomplish these goals with infrequent fellowship income. As you catalog your expenses, write in a savings goal to your budget as well. You can put money from your paycheck toward this goal shortly after you receive it if you’re confident you won’t overspend the money you keep in cash. Alternatively, you can put the money toward your goal near the end of your budgeting period once you’re sure you won’t run out of funds! A combination of the two might be even better: contribute a minimum amount first and set aside another amount as a stretch goal that you can contribute once you near the end of the budgeting period.

Switching Off of Fellowship Income

Just as you looked into the dates of your expected paychecks when you switched onto infrequent fellowship income, you need to ask about the frequency and pay dates of the assistantship or other type of income that you are switching onto when your fellowship ends.

Again, you can expect to be paid at the end of or after the pay period rather than at the beginning. That means you will have to pay for your living expenses for an extra couple of weeks or a month off of your fellowship income before your assistantship income arrives.

For example, if your fellowship was for an academic year and summer, September through August, and you switched onto assistantship pay at the start of the following September, it would be typical for your first assistantship paycheck to come at the end of September or beginning of October. That’s 13 months of living expenses that your fellowship needs to fund, not 12.