transcript

This PhD Healed Her Scarcity Money Mindset Using a Goal-Setting Framework (Part 1)

September 16, 2019 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Lucie Bland about her financial journey from graduate school to self-employment. Lucie was severely underpaid as a PhD student, and she felt such guilt and shame around spending that she became terrified of money. Her money mindset didn’t improve when her income increased several-fold as a postdoc, and it wasn’t until she discovered the Good-Better-Best goal setting framework that she started to heal her relationship with money. She now describes herself as a money boss. In this first half of the conversation, Lucie details her financial journey from underpaid PhD student to well-paid postdoc and how she needed to take a break from full-time employment to set herself on the right career and financial trajectory.

Listen to Part 2 of this interview!

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Lucie: I did go to some extent through that transition of seeing not money as like an enemy or something that needs to be hoarded, but something that can be used as an investment for a good life. When I was doing my PhD, I was not future-oriented. I was in survival mode.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode five, and today my guest is Dr. Lucie Bland, self-employed PhD living in Australia. Lucie has such an amazing story to tell that I’ve split it into two episodes. This one and next week’s. In this episode, Lucie talks us through the roller coaster of her financial journey from severely underpaid graduate student in London to well-compensated postdoc in Australia to not having an income to starting a business. Lucie describes herself during graduate school as “terrified of money,” And that didn’t automatically improve when her income more than tripled and her cost of living dropped. We discuss the intentional steps she took to heal her money mindset, including the goal-setting framework that she now applies in her personal and professional life. Without further ado, here’s the first part of my interview with Dr. Lucie Bland.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:26 Emily: Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. We have a really delightful set of episodes ahead for us. It’s going to be a two-parter. My guest today is Dr. Lucie Bland and so I’m going to kick it right over to her right now and have her introduce herself to you a little bit further.

01:44 Lucie: Thank you, Emily. Thank you for having me on the podcast. My name is Dr. Lucie Bland. I’m an editor and writing coach and I help researchers and writers get published.

01:54 Emily: Yeah, that sounds really exciting. Can you tell us what your background is?

01:59 Lucie: Yeah. I graduated from Oxford University with a degree in biological sciences and then I did my PhD at Imperial College, London in Ecology in 2014. That’s when I finished, and then I moved to Australia for two postdocs in conservation science. The first one at the University of Melbourne and the second one at Deakin University. And now for about a year I’ve been running my academic editing business, which I now do full time. So very much serving the academic community, but I’m no longer directly a researcher.

02:34 Emily: Yeah. Well, we are in the same boat in that respect. Can you say right away up top what your website is?

02:42 Lucie: My website is luciebland.com and that’s spelled l u c i e b l a n d.com.

02:49 Emily: Yeah. And any other personal details you’d like to share, maybe where you’re living now or is your household just you?

02:56 Lucie: I live in Melbourne with my boyfriend and our Burmese mountain dog that you might see in the video if he comes around.

03:05 Emily: Yeah. Enticement to hop over to YouTube and watch this on the video instead of over the podcast. Okay. So we have this great story that I know a little bit about already, so bring us back to your time in graduate school. What was going on with you financially at that time, both in terms of like how much money you were making and also what was your relationship with money?

Lucie’s Evolving Relationship to Money

03:30 Lucie: Yeah, my money situation, my relationship to money when I was doing my PhD was very different to how it is now. I was living in London, one of the most expensive cities in the world, and I was earning 13,000 pounds per year, which is 16,000 US dollars. And I would spend 650 pounds a month on rent, which is 60% of my income. And I remember that time reading a report that said that your level of basic socioeconomic level can be determined by how much you spend on rent, and the higher it is the poorer you are. So that was a little bit depressing to me. But despite having these really high expenses and that really low income, I was really not wise about money at all. My money strategy was to bury my head in the sand. I was paid quarterly, which would mean that I would run out of money every quarter.

04:27 Lucie: And I didn’t have a savings account. So normal accounts could be very regularly in the double digits and I just didn’t know how that would happen. And when I moved to Australia, I experienced a very different money situation in that my income pretty much tripled. I was paid $80,000 a year and I lived in a really funky flat on my own in the hipster part of town. So I kind of went from rags to riches, but I very much kept my very Scrooge-y lifestyle and I still didn’t budget. It did mean that I was saving $20,000 a year because my expenses were really low cause I would still collect vouchers and coupons and have that very “PhD student” lifestyle. But I wouldn’t say that my budgeting skills or my approach to money improved in any way. It was just that my income was higher.

05:26 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah, that’s a great overview, and I think it’s one that’s going to be relatable to a lot of people within the audience. Most of my audience is in the U.S. and the cost of living differences can be so wide between, you know, New York and San Francisco versus certain cities in the Midwest that are quite a bit smaller. And so a graduate stipend can also kind of be all over the map and it doesn’t necessarily correlate with higher stipends in higher cities necessarily. Sometimes that’s the case and sometimes not. I’ve interviewed several people on the podcast who live in high cost of living cities but have an okay kind of income, maybe double or more what you just mentioned, and others where that’s completely not the case. A much, much lower income. Actually, I want to go back a little bit further and talk about your mindset from even before you started graduate school. Would you say that you grew up middle class, or what was your mindset about money or the socioeconomic status you had prior to entering graduate school?

Money Mindset Before Grad School

06:34 Lucie: Yes, so I was definitely middle class. Especially my father had a very relaxed and confident approach to money and to some extent my mother as well. But in a way they hadn’t taught me any budgeting skills at all, which is a little bit sad, but kind of looking a bit backwards again. And that has really influenced my money story. My French grandparents grew up under German occupation and under rationing and that really influenced their mindset around money and around the use of resources. And to some extent, even in my kind of middle class nuclear family, especially, my mother could also have that very Scrooge-y or scarcity mindset. And I remember my grandparents still drinking chicory, which is a coffee replacement that’s made from the root of a plant, that French people used to drink under the German occupation.

07:30 Lucie: And so they still had some of these relic habits of, you know, we don’t know when the next meal is coming. And so you’ve got to finish off your plate, you’ve got to use all your resources in a very savvy way, which in many cases can be a good approach. But I think that as a child, I really internalized that. And one of the funny stories in my family is that at the age of 10 or 11, I signed up to this website, it was called scrooge.com and got lots of vouchers and was very obsessed with using those and not spending any money. So, I’m quite conscious that my personal money story and approach to money, well to some extent determined by my socioeconomic level or being from a middle-class family, was also influenced by lots of other family patterns that predated that.

Money Mindset During Grad School

08:20 Emily: Yeah. So I guess we could suffice to say that in some ways you were unprepared for being in graduate school on that kind of income and in that expensive city. In other ways, you had maybe some skills and some mindsets that would be, I hesitate to even say helpful. I mean helpful to survive, but maybe not helpful to be sort of healthy mentally overall towards money, especially later on once you have that income increase. So when you were accepted to graduate school and you knew what that stipend was going to be, and you knew more or less where you’d be living and that it was going to be 60% of your income going towards rent, what were your thoughts? How did you approach that situation? Did you think, “well, I’m just going to have to make this work. I’ll do it somehow”? Or did you consider debt? And I don’t know if that was even really an option for you.

09:14 Lucie: The thing is I didn’t even know that I was going to spend 60% of my income on rent because I hadn’t calculated it at all. I was completely in the dark, and no, that was not an option. I’ve never had a loan or credit card. Again, different countries have different approaches to that. And for me, I was just going to have to eat pasta. That’s how short-sighted my thinking was. To some extent, I could have considered a student loan, which I might not have been eligible for as a French person. But you know, my thinking was not even that advanced.

09:54 Emily: Right. And so once you did find out, once you did secure housing and you knew how much of your stipend was going to be eaten up by rent, what was your plan at that point, and kind of how did you get through it? And I guess this might be sort of advice in sort of how to keep expenses low. Although of course in the overall arc of this conversation, that’s not really what we want to be talking about. But for those years, how did you get by?

10:19 Lucie: I probably spent very little money on food, and I did go out a little bit, but I wouldn’t do anything that was fun. You know, I would probably not go to the cinema. I probably would not go to expensive parties. One of the things I did in London, I had a bike and I would be very savvy about whether I would take the tube or the bus. The bus was cheaper, and so everything became a decision. And if the decision presented itself to me, I would always take the cheaper option. So, I didn’t think long-term about do I need to build savings? Do I need to think a bit longer term? It was extremely short-term.

10:57 Emily: Was thinking long-term even an option though?

Short-Term versus Long-Term Vision

11:01 Lucie: At that stage, I wasn’t thinking long-term at all because I just couldn’t. I didn’t have the funds to do it.

11:09 Emily: Yeah. It’s not really a personal oversight. It’s just this is how the day-to-day is passing by of thinking about these really minute decisions around money, which are so important to whether you’re going to stay in the block for the month or the quarter. So you were surviving by being extremely frugal in many areas and not spending much on entertainment. I wonder, were your classmates living in a similar manner?

11:39 Lucie: Yes. Yes, we were all living in house shares in London. In quite difficult conditions with lots of issues with housemates, with landlords, with boilers breaking and not getting repaired. Like in a way it was a very kind of low-income status. And I remember kind of looking in awe at some of the PhD students who might be a little bit older who might have worked before and had a bit more savings or maybe had a partner who could support them, who lived in a real adult flat and had furniture that they bought new rather than scavenged from the streets. And to me that was very much a vision of the long-term future. It’s definitely not something I was doing then.

12:27 Emily: Did you find that it was helpful to have that comradery with some of your classmates? Did it make getting through this experience a little bit more bearable?

12:37 Lucie: Yes, and to some extent, even people who would start their first job in London. So, not a PhD student, would probably be on a similar income. And that was 2010. It was post-global financial crisis. So actually some people had decided to do a PhD or go to graduate school just to avoid getting a job. Because there were so few jobs. So that was kind of the economic climate of the time, which has improved slightly now, but we were all very much in that same mindset regardless of whether someone was starting, you know, their first teaching job or was doing your PhD or had a job in admin or in sales at a small company. None of us were making the big bucks.

Money’s Impact on Lucie’s PhD Perfomance

13:20 Emily: How do you think that being–it sounds like very consumed with thoughts about money and decisions around money on a daily basis–do you think that had any effect on your scholarship?

13:34 Lucie: Do you mean how I performed during my PhD?

13:37 Emily: Yeah. Like, let’s say your income was double of that, and you had an easier time with money, there was less stress there. Do you think that you would have done better?

13:49 Lucie: I actually think the opposite in that because I couldn’t do that much outside of going to work and coming back home, I worked really hard. And that’s what I would just do. I had a very traditional existence of cycling to Uni, doing my PhD, and coming back. And I think that to some extent doing my PhD, was a release from my money worries, and that’s why I worked so hard on it. So that could be my specific experience.

14:18 Emily: Yeah. I don’t know if that’s generalizable. I mean, I’m happy to hear that you thought it was a positive effect on your work. But I remember when I was interviewing for graduate schools that I heard that argument from–I interviewed in a city that didn’t have a whole lot going on. A very, very small city, rural–and the argument was kind of, well there’s nothing to do here except for our work. And the weather is really tough in winter. And so we just work, and that’s all. Versus if you lived in a very exciting city or one where there’s just a lot more fun activities going on, you might be more tempted to get out of the lab and go to these other things. But we’re talking about living in London and having that attitude. So, I’m a little bit surprised by that. That you were able to kind of “tunnel vision” on just your work during that time.

15:07 Lucie: Yeah. I think that in that case, it’s very much necessity is the mother invention or this dictates how you behave.

15:16 Emily: Yeah, exactly.

15:16 Lucie: And that’s why I was very relieved when I moved out of London, came to Australia where the cost of living compared to London is lower. You know, it’s kind of insane to say. Australia has a reputation for being expensive, but I found Australia very cheap.

15:32 Emily: Yeah. Let’s talk about that transition now. But first, how many years were you in London doing your PhD?

15:38 Lucie: Four years.

Financial Life as a Postdoc in Australia

15:39 Emily: Okay. So that’s plenty of time for this to become a very ingrained mindset and approach towards money. So, you finish up and you’ve accepted a postdoc in Australia. Tell us about that. Tell us about the money that you’re making and where you’re living and so forth.

15:55 Lucie: Yes. I was very excited to come to Australia to come to Melbourne. As I said, I would be making $80,000, which was way more money than I’d ever made. I could afford to live on my own, which was a big thing in a really nice little flat in the inner city. I bought a car, I bought new furniture, you know, things were going really well. But what I noticed as well was that I did keep a lot of my former habits in the sense that, for example, Melburnians are big fans of their coffee. All the postdocs would go to the really nice coffee shops and have take-away coffee and bring it back to their office while I was very purposefully making instant coffee in a little kitchen so as to avoid buying coffees. And most of my decisions were like that in that I still got reclaimed furniture from the streets. I would do most of my shopping at op shops, which is very eco-friendly but there is a limit to how healthy that is as well. And so, even though my income was higher, I had still kept that mindset of trying to keep my cost of living as low as possible. Not really from a conscious intention, but just because that was the only thing I knew how to do.

17:13 Emily: Yeah, it sounds it’s actually hearkening back to your example from your grandparents, right. Even the coffee, specifically. So this is really interesting to me to talk to you about this transition because it’s something that I think about a lot and that I talk about quite a bit as well of how should PhDs manage their money once they’re out of graduate school. And I think the standard personal finance advice that I often say as well is live like a college student. And that’s the general advice, and the way it applies for graduate students that I say is “continue at your graduate student lifestyle for as long as possible.” Even though, once you’re making this higher income, to kind of make up for the lost time and the lost income from the previous years, so that’s a time when you can be building up savings and starting to invest and so forth.

18:05 Emily: But I trip over that advice sometimes a little bit. And especially in a case like yours, because if your lifestyle was so constrained, due to your graduate income, that’s not good advice any longer, right? You should increase your lifestyle as your income goes up, and still do all the things you want to, you know, be saving and so forth, investing or paying off debt, whatever it is you need to do. But if you have been consumed and shutting out large portions of your life because of lack of money, that’s not something that should continue. So I’m really glad to have your example as one that is counter to the advice that I usually give and the advice that many people would probably hear once they are seeking out personal finance content. So, can you talk a little bit more about that change? Once your income is higher, how did you start changing how you were using your money and thinking about your money?

Money Change #1: Saving Toward Retirement

19:05 Lucie: The first decision that I ever made about my money, that was a very good decision, which was based on the advice of one of my friends who’s a financial advisor, was that when I started my postdoc in Australia, we’re very lucky that we have 17% of our salary be put into a superannuation fund by our employer. So the employer adds to our salary 17% and puts it into a fund for our retirement. But we can make additional pre-tax contributions. And I made the maximum pre-tax contribution, which was 9.5%. So, I basically had a quarter of my salary going into a super every month, and that was not increasing my lifestyle. That was making a very conscious decision about investing in my future. And that was pretty much the little seed that then grew not into expanding my lifestyle but into this view of investing in myself in the sense that I can invest in savings, I can invest in my super, but I can also invest in my own wellbeing, not because I’m being frivolous, but because it pays off.

20:17 Lucie: It pays off, let’s say to have a gym membership, to have a yoga membership, to have healthy social relationships, et cetera. And so I think that I did go to some extent through that transition of seeing not money as like an enemy or something that needs to be hoarded, but something that can be used as an investment for a good life. And that was what I’d seen in some of these older PhD students in London who were maybe buying a property, et Cetera, that they were investing in their future. Versus when I was doing my PhD, I was not future-oriented. I was in survival mode. Versus this increase in salary opened up for me the possibility that I could plan for a future.

21:01 Emily: I think you put that so well and I want everyone listening, if you’ve resonated with anything, Lucy said so far to go back a minute or two and listen to that–what you just said, over again–because I think it was so, so insightful and well-put. As you were saying, the first intentional money decision that you made after this income increase was not about just going crazy and spending because you’d been so restricted for so long and just splashing out on everything. But rather, being able to think about really changing how you even viewed money. What you said was in viewing it as being able to invest in yourself and having an enjoyable and healthy lifestyle overall rather than trying to hoard it as much as possible because there was such a scarcity, you know, before that point.

21:52 Emily: And I did want to add a slight translation for my, my listeners in the U.S. So, our equivalent to what you did was, when you got your higher salary, basically we would call it “maxed out your 401(k),” which in the U.S. is $19,000 per year. So if anyone’s listening who has started a new post-PhD job and you’re wondering what to do with that lovely salary bump, maxing out your 401(k) is an excellent thing to do. For the reasons that Lucy just mentioned, that it is an investment in yourself and it’s an investment in your future.

Commercial

22:25 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs, and other early-career PhDs for universities, institutes and conferences, associations, etc. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs, like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you are interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. That’s p f f o r p h d s.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

Money Change #2: Impulse Shopping

23:13 Emily: So were there any other changes that you made, after that point, after starting to think about the long-term with respect to retirement? What other changes did you start making?

23:24 Lucie: Probably the next change that I made, which was not a good change, and that happened in my second postdoc, was that I started to impulse shop, and that was entirely related to the stress that I was under. So for, as you said, for a few years I managed to keep my spending quite low, and to have that fairly frugal lifestyle. But then after years of PhD, years of postdoc being put under a lot of pressure, I was starting to struggle, and I could see that being reflected in my spending. And I very quickly knew that this was an issue. So it wasn’t that I was being frivolous in being released, I was using that kind of as an emotional Band-Aid. And that kind of was one of the alarm bells that told me that maybe I need a bit of time off or to think about why I was in academia and what I’d wanted to do. Because one of the symptoms of this was how I was sending my money, which was not really in accordance with my values, and that was quite troublesome to me.

24:31 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s also very common behavior, whether people can afford it or not. So, coming to impulse spending just to emotionally relieve some kind of stress or difficulty or pain that’s going on. So, yeah. Can you tell me more about, having recognized that issue, what then did you do? You just mentioned you took some time off from your postdoc.

Leave of Absence from Postdoc

24:56 Lucie: So I think this was kind of part of a larger quarter-life crisis in the sense that the pressure had been mounting probably since the first day that I started my first postdoc in Australia. And now that was three years later of full-time work with a lot of international travel, a lot of publications. We’re all familiar with that kind of lifestyle. And I just didn’t know why I was in research anymore. I felt really lost and kind of, as we talked about before, I could not see my future in it. And I didn’t know if it was because I was too stressed or confused or because it was genuinely not what I wanted to do. So I was very lucky that I could ask for a six-month unpaid leave of absence from my university and kind of take a little break from all my responsibilities. Because, especially in my first postdoc, I think I must have supervised four or five students to completion. I think I kind of bumped to a lecturer role very quickly. But that amount of responsibility, and then it kind of caught up with me a few years later, was like, well, I’m going down this route very quickly. Do I want to continue with this route?

26:16 Emily: Yeah, really in many jobs, many workplaces, there is a great deal of just going with the flow and some inertia. And you can get to a point where your job duties are not at all kind of what you expected or what you signed up for, but it evolved. So that’s amazing that you made the decision and also were able to say, “okay, hold on a second, I need to take some time to figure out where I really want to go next.” And this is maybe a little bit of a naive question, but were you able to fund that period of being away from your job because your expenses had been so far below your income for the previous years?

26:53 Lucie: Yes, I had a lot of savings at that point.

26:56 Emily: Yeah. And, what I say quite a bit, that money gives you options. And so, you’d been earning quite a lot and saving quite a lot for those few years, and then you had the option to take a step back and have that time to reevaluate. So, what did you do with that time off?

Personal and Career Development Journey

27:16 Lucie: First, I had a holiday to see my parents in Europe, which was great. And I think the first two or three months of the six-month period, I was brain dead. I was recovering. I was watching TV, doing all of these silly things that people do when they finish their PhD. But I’ve seen that quite a lot in first or second postdocs in that people who don’t take a break between their PhD and their postdoc tend to get hit at a later date with trying to cope with all that change. I had also moved to Australia by myself and so I think it just all caught up with me a little bit later. So, I spent a few months resting and relaxing, and that’s when I started to coach myself. I became very interested in these personal development and career development books.

28:09 Lucie: I started to use a career coaching book that’s called, What Color is Your Parachute? It’s a very famous career coaching book.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

28:16 Emily: Yes, I’ve read that.

Part-Time Editing, Part-Time Postdoc

28:18 Lucie: Yeah, it’s great. And basically, I figured out that probably a very good job for me, which matched to actually want I wanted to do as a child–I wanted to be a writer. And what I was enjoying, what I was really good at as an academic was publishing. And kind of putting these two things together, I was like, “well, getting a job as an editor would be quite a good fit.” And I got a small job with a big global editing company, editing research papers, writing research papers, kind of being a writer for hire. And I really enjoyed that but it paid very little, and I was just starting out. And I could see with the budgeting that I had started doing when I was off work–because that was another really great habit that I’ve gotten into–was that just having that editing job was not gonna cut it for the type of life that I wanted. And that kind of spurred that decision to go back to my postdoc part-time. I was also not sure whether I wanted to quit academia completely. I thought that maybe if I worked part-time, I could cope with the challenges of academia better because I would have reduced hours. Then I could do my editing job as well. So that was the plan in that period, which would be to do the postdoc job part-time and the editing job part-time, and then together it would make a healthy income.

29:52 Emily: I love just how intentional you were with all of those decisions. The series of decisions that you made there, in trying to align your career with what you really wanted to do. And also, you briefly mentioned, but starting to budget is a major, huge leap in one’s personal finances. And that, it sounds like, sort of contributed to the career planning. Right? How much money do I actually need to make to fund the lifestyle that I want and then how can I redirect my career to make sure that I make that amount of money? And is that how it worked out? Did you find that the half-time postdoc position was lower stress, and was that a good situation that you were then in?

Backfired Plan: Full-Time Work for Part-Time Pay

30:35 Lucie: In a way that was a complete failure, in that I was doing full-time work for part-time hours and part-time pay. And I’ve heard that story a lot with other people, in that research is a job that is difficult to do part-time. And a lot of mothers, a lot of people who would want to work part-time for lots of reasons, find it challenging. After a while, I did end up quitting the editing job because it was too much in that postdoc responsibilities would come during my editing hours and would influence the quality of my work at the editing company. And because I was an employee of the university, they kind of took it as this is your priority, and your other job is not a priority. And that was quite difficult to manage. And also at that time I would realize that having my own business would enable me to make the kind of money that I want it to make from editing instead of working for an editing company. And so that spurred my decision to quit the editing job and to start my own business. So, as you’d mentioned, some of these decisions were intentional, but also some of them were just due from the decision to go part-time, in a way, backfired.

32:02 Emily: Yeah. So, did you end up not staying part-time for very long? How long did you stay at that part-time?

Going Full-Time into Self-Employment

32:09 Lucie: I stayed part-time for a year. And then I went full-time with the business. I had a few months to start the business when I was still part-time at the university. And that gave me a little bit of a cushion. And then again with the budgeting, I realized within three months that actually with the business, I was making enough money to not need the Uni job, which I then let go of. It makes it sound like a very drastic and calculated decision. There was a lot of kind of emotional decisions that went into it as well because I love research and I continue in a way, but I knew that having my own business would be a better decision for me for the lifestyle that I want to have, for the type of people that I want to surround myself with, etc. And finances were I guess one of the drivers of that decision. But there were also lots of other things that went into it.

33:08 Emily: Yeah. I have many of the same thoughts around and motivations around becoming self-employed. So, we’re going to talk plenty about your transition to self-employment in the second part of this two-part series. But before we do that, I wanted you to introduce this Good-Better-Best framework that you started using. I believe during this period when you were taking a break from work and when you started budgeting. What is that framework, and how were you using it?

Good Better Best (GBB) Framework

33:40 Lucie: Yes. So the framework that I was using at the time along with my budgeting is called Good-Better-Best goals. And it’s a framework that was devised by business coach Megan Hale. So when I was on my break, I just sucked up a lot of books and podcasts on how to be an entrepreneur. And usually these guys have much healthier attitudes to money. People have worked really hard on their money story and their finances to be at a stage where they can own their own business. And so that GBB method relies on defining Good-Better-Best benchmarks in terms of income generation. So, your “Good” goal is your minimum viable income. It’s the minimum of amount of money that you need to survive. Probably, my income when I was a PhD in London was even below what could be called a minimum viable income because it came with so much strain.

34:40 Lucie: A “Good” goal in the GBB framework is your basics, your rent, your bills, et cetera. Your food, and maybe something that you find really important–a little bit of going out or a Netflix subscription, but it really doesn’t go overboard. It’s pretty much the minimum that you need to have a relatively happy life. Then it gets very exciting when we go to the “Better” and the “Best” goals because then we start to cast out some of these big dreams that we have. So, for example, for me and my “Better” goals, I’ve got things such as buying furniture, buying a new dog, going on holiday. So, that’s when your lifestyle starts to improve and increase. Like you were mentioning, with having a postdoc that has better pay. Usually, people get to that “Better” benchmark where they can start to save money. They can work towards these big dreams. And because they cast it out in advance, it’s very motivational in the sense that, let’s say budgeting or restricting your income and things that you don’t like. It comes natural because you want to reach these other goals. Instead of feeling restricted, you’re just moving your money around to enable going towards the things you really want.

35:56 Lucie: And then the “Best” goal really blows your mind in the sense that if you could make that much money, it would be almost unfathomable. And you could afford so many different things. So, here you can cast a lot of these bigger dreams like buying a house or going on very luxurious holidays, et cetera. And so because you have these three benchmarks, you can always assess where you are in this very logical and objective manner. And maybe that’s something we’ll go into the next episode. It helps you get out of this very emotional attitude to money or this very fear-based attitude to money because then they just become numbers in a spreadsheet. They are in an order: Good, Better, Best. And then you can address them in this objective manner rather than having no numbers or this nebulous idea in your head that your dreams are never going to come true because they are too expensive, versus when you know exactly how much it’s going to cost, you can start working towards it.

Expanding the GBB Framework for Personal Goals

36:59 Emily: Yeah. I think you explained that very well. So, the source that it came from for you and the way that you first learned about it is very oriented around being self-employed or being a business owner in terms of having variable levels of income and a degree of control over your income. If I make this amount that’s going to keep the lights on and my life’s going to be okay. If I strive for this amount, then the next levels I could unlock in my lifestyle, and then, okay, the third level is even well above that. But given your history, coming as a PhD student and then as a postdoc, how did you massage this framework into something that you could use maybe in your personal life and not just as an aspiring business owner?

37:46 Lucie: Yes. Well, first, just defining the “Good” goal. This is applicable to anyone in the sense that most people actually don’t know their minimum viable income. And that would change their decisions on what type of job to take, what city to move to. They might think that a certain city is too expensive or a certain job doesn’t pay enough, et cetera, versus if you have a really good handle on how much you actually spend. For me, I’ve done personal budgeting for more than a year, so I know my yearly fluctuations. That enables me to make much more informed decisions about every aspect of my life. Because if I want to go for job, let’s say I’m not self-employed, I would know what this job would allow me to do and whether, let’s say I would be ready to move to a cheaper area or to a more expensive area. And the GBB goals would put that into context.

Financially Navigating a PhD Career Transition

38:47 Emily: Yeah. I actually love that you brought that up in terms of evaluating your next position. If you’re getting out of graduate school, going to a postdoc, going to another job. This is actually something that I’ve talked about in some materials that I released in the summer of 2019, which if you want to check that out, you can go to pfforphds.com/next. N e x t. And that’s about putting a job offer, a salary offer that you receive in the context of the local cost of living for the new place that you don’t live yet. And there’s ways to do that without having tracked your own spending like you’re talking about. Like trying to figure out, okay, how does this new city’s cost of living compare to where I currently live, what I currently make, what would I be making there? How does it compare?

39:27 Emily: But it’s much, much more powerful if you actually do what you’re talking about and have tracked and budgeted for yourself wherever you’re currently living. And it gives you so much more information for then evaluating that next salary offer. And like you were saying, okay, maybe in graduate school, you’re able to spend at the “Good” level. Or maybe you’re not. Maybe you’re at an insufficient level and it’s even below what you would consider to be a “Good” level of spending. You’ll at least have a handle on that. You’ll know where your current salary and current expenditures relate to that, “Good” or “Better” or whatever it is level. And that will help you evaluate, as you were saying, the next position that you might be offered. Or in your case, well, how much money do I really need to make to make this leap into self-employment, which will be so much better for me and you know, x, y, z other areas. But can I do it financially? It helps you evaluate that. Am I getting that right?

40:21 Lucie: Yes. Completely.

Final Advice for a Healthier Money Mindset

40:23 Emily: So, something that you mentioned when we were first talking about doing this interview was that you had used this GBB framework to heal your mindset towards money. So, that’s this period that we’ve been talking about. And when you’re really facing your numbers and starting to budget and so forth. What advice do you have for another, let’s say PhD student currently who is struggling both with a low income and with an unhealthy mindset towards money?

40:53 Lucie: Yeah. My main advice would be to start taking action now in the sense of doing very basic budgeting because not knowing where your money’s at makes things worse. We think when we’re putting our head in the sand that things are better because we’re not looking under the hood but it actually makes things worse. And the reason why it’s important to take some form of action really early on–and this thinking is corroborated by forms of therapy such as cognitive behavioral therapy–is that by changing your behaviors, you actually change your beliefs. It doesn’t really work the other way around. You won’t wake up tomorrow with another set of beliefs about money. It’s about taking action. And then this informs our beliefs and how we evolve in relation to money. And so by taking small actions such as when I started, which was very simple, which was just to print out my bank statement and then put a little circle around the expenses that brought me a lot of joy or a lot of value and then a little cross with the ones that I was not so sure about. I was like, maybe that’s wasted money. And then just gradually adjust your spending so that you only have the little circles. And that can help you towards what is your minimum viable income, what’s your “Good” goal without all the extraneous bits that you spend money on but actually you don’t enjoy that much.

42:14 Emily: Yeah, I absolutely love that advice. It’s sort of increasing the efficiency of the use of your money. So, I think that’s wonderful advice for that student.

Outtro

42:23 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to pfforphds.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to do so without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC.

How This Multi-Fellowship Winner Managed Her Applications and Finances

September 9, 2019 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Anne Rocheleau, who holds a PhD in biomedical engineering and currently works in industry. Anne won several fellowships during grad school (and applied for many more), including ones that paid her stipend and tuition and fees and ones that paid for conference travel expenses. Anne shares her process of finding and applying for fellowships and the extracurricular activities she pursued to make her a competitive candidate. Anne’s established budget helped her manage her income as her pay frequency changed while going on and off the fellowships, but she did have an unpleasant surprise one April since her fellowship did not withhold income tax. Overall, Anne’s fellowships greatly contributed to her development as a researcher and science communicator as well as her personal finances.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Anne: Fellowships can be a really wonderful way to broaden your experience in grad school and I know a number of students that studied in a different country, for instance, which is a great experience that they wouldn’t have gotten necessarily if they had stayed on a research assistantship or a teaching assistantship.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode four and today my guest is Dr. Anne Rocheleau, a PhD in biomedical engineering who won several fellowships and travel awards during grad school and her postdoc. Anne gives advice for other fellowship seekers based on her experience of finding and applying for several fellowships each year and shares the enriching experiences she sought out that made her a competitive candidate. The fellowships had a positive effect on Anne’s personal finances and scholarly development and we discuss how to avoid the financial pitfalls that come with some types of fellowship income. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Anne Rocheleau.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:13 Emily: I’m joined today by Dr. Anne Rocheleau. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and we are going to be discussing fellowships, how to win them and what happens to your finances once you do win one. Anne has plenty of experience with this, so thank you so much for joining us today and will you tell us a little bit more about yourself, please?

01:33 Anne: Sure. Thank you so much for inviting me to be part of this podcast. I’m really excited to be here. I got my undergraduate degree in chemical engineering from Worcester Polytechnic Institute in Massachusetts. I did my Masters of Science degree at Cornell University in chemical engineering, as well, and I did my PhD in biomedical engineering, also at Cornell. Then I worked for a year as a quality engineer in Massachusetts, before moving out to the west coast to Portland. I was a postdoc for a year and a half at Oregon Health and Science University and now I work as a research scientist at a startup medical device company here in Portland.

02:17 Emily: Well, we’re going to get on a little diversion here already because I’m curious about you having a real job for a year and then going back to having a postdoc. I didn’t know that was a thing. Was there any difficulty in landing that postdoc, having been out of academia for a little bit of time? And also, what was the reasoning behind that? Was it just, “I want to live in Portland and this is the kind of job I can get”, or what?

02:41 Anne: Yes, it was largely a geographic. I wanted to move out to Portland to be with my now fiance, but also, it was really fun to work in industry for a year. It was very different and it got my mind working in a totally different way, being a quality engineer, and then when I wanted to move to Portland, I had a connection from my PhD advisor, who knew my advisor that became my postdoc advisor here in Portland, so that was a really natural fit and I really liked OHSU, Oregon Health and Science University. To work in the med school environment was really great, so that was a really cool transition. It was interesting going back into academia. I felt like I had a little bit of a different take on things and it really solidified my desire to stay in research. I love research.

03:37 Emily: Glad to hear that it added to your career. It sounds like you networked your way into it, so that’s very natural.

Finding and Applying to Fellowships

03:45 Emily: Let’s hearken back to your grad student and postdoc days when you were applying for and winning fellowships. Which fellowships did you end up winning?

03:56 Anne: I did my master’s degree on the National Science Foundation Science Master’s program fellowship. That one I actually got lucky, I didn’t have to directly apply for it. I was offered that program by my department, so that was the first one. Then, during my PhD, I received the National Science Foundation GK-12 fellowship. That was a full tuition and PhD stipend fellowship and also included a teaching element. I was part of the Society of Women Engineers as a grad student and so I received a scholarship through them, that was $3,000. I applied for and received two travel grants for the Biomedical Engineering Society’s annual meeting, so those travel grants covered the meeting registration as well as $400 for travel. When I was a postdoc, I received a travel grant for a conference and I wasn’t presenting there, but I did attend some workshops and I think that was about $2,000.

05:03 Emily: I’m glad to hear that list because I just want students and postdocs to get an idea of the diversity of fellowships that are out there, it’s not only from the NSF, it’s not only the GRF, there’s a lot of other ones as well. There’s all these travel grants from the conferences and everything. Conference travel is a big pain point for grad students and postdocs and so it’s just good to hear that there is money available. You have to ask, get a little bit lucky, or put together the right kind of application and the money’s there for some people, so that can help a lot.

05:39 Emily: Can you tell me a little bit about your process of applying to fellowships and finding out about these fellowships. You said there was one you were automatically nominated or awarded, but other ones you had to seek out. What was that process like? How did you find these fellowships?

05:57 Anne: I have a couple of recommendations for that. First of all, I found internal university resources to be excellent for finding fellowships and talking to other folks that were in my department that had received these fellowships in the years before me, that was really useful. There were some databases at my university, where they aggregated fellowship opportunities. Professional societies are a great way to find fellowships, both for conferences and I also received one that was a scholarship. My other recommendation for this is ProFellow.com. This is an awesome website. I’m still on the email list. It’s post-bac, post-graduate fellowships, graduate fellowships, both long term, short term, all fields, all over the world. It’s a fantastic resource for fellowships.

06:52 Emily: It’s so funny that you mentioned that because we’re recording this on a Tuesday and I’m interviewing Vicki, who’s the person behind ProFellow, on Thursday for the podcast. I don’t know which order they’ll come out in, if yours will come before hers or vice versa. I’m not sure, but listeners, these two podcasts episodes are coming together, they’re a pair. Thank you so much for mentioning those resources. I have a post, I’ll link to it in the show notes, on how to find fellowships, which includes a couple of the databases you mentioned that I saw. Some universities have really extensive ones, but I’m going to add some of the things that you just mentioned to it. So listeners if you want to see some links to this, go to the show notes and find that post. Thank you so much for adding that. I really liked the tip about the professional societies. I hadn’t thought about that at all, but it totally makes sense.

07:42 Emily: So you found some fellowships you applied for. You told us which ones you were successfully awarded, but did you have some others that you applied to that you didn’t win? Were you applying for a lot or maybe only one or two a year or what was it?

07:55 Anne: Oh, yes, I definitely applied to a number that I wasn’t successful in. This is definitely a numbers game and sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don’t. So yes, there were certainly several from all levels — from scholarships, fellowships, travel grants — that I did not get.

08:14 Emily: Well, it’s good to hear that you were just trying a lot. Since you were submitting a number of these applications per year, how did you think about that in terms of the usage of your time? Did you feel like it was, not a waste of time, but not really within your core mission of what you were doing in graduate school? Like something you had to do that was kind of extra, or did you really see it as just grant writing and building a skill set? How did you view it?

08:43 Anne: I do enjoy writing, so that’s part of it, and I was happy to develop those skills. In the case of the NSF GK-12 fellowship, it was a great way to enhance what I was doing with another skill set. In that case it was teaching and mentoring. I was paired with a teacher that I mentored for a project in the summer. I think fellowships can be a really wonderful way to broaden your experience in grad school and I know a number of students that studied in a different country, for instance, which is a great experience that they wouldn’t have gotten necessarily if they had stayed on a research assistantship or a teaching assistantship.

09:40 Emily: Yeah, that’s a really good point because, what I tend to forget about is fellowships pay you or pay your expenses, but really their purpose is to further your development as a researcher. That could be through doing whatever you’d be doing as an RA at your university, or it could be having these much more independent experiences, as you just mentioned, that are really enriching in a variety of ways. That’s what a fellowship is for, right? It’s good to be reminded of the core mission of a fellowship, which is to develop an individual, not necessarily to further some larger grant or whatever that you’re working on.

10:24 Anne: I have one more thing that I can add there too. I felt like it really deepened my connection to the professional societies that I was part of as well. I’m actually now involved in my local chapter of the Society of Women Engineers as a scholarship chair, so it really inspired me to turn around and give back after graduate school. It really meant a lot to me and it was inspiring to me that those organizations believed in me and I felt like that also came out as well in these.

Fellowship Application Tips and Tricks

11:00 Emily: Wonderful. What about the process of actually writing these applications? Did you have any tips for another grad student or postdoc going through that? What was that process for you?

11:12 Anne: I generally kept these materials together and it was my folder of preparation for what I needed to write some of these applications. First of all, you almost always need a copy of your transcripts, so I just had that handy so I didn’t have to go searching for it when I needed it. You almost always need a CV, so again, I just had that handy, a two page CV. I also had my set of go-to recommenders because many of these a fellowships also require recommendations. Then I had some talking points that I used as a basis for the essays for these different fellowships. They all require something a little bit different, but they almost always have a research component — what you’ve previously done, what you would like to do, some quantifiable results if you have those. Many of them have an outreach component, so I had this running list of what I was involved in with volunteer efforts and professional society involvement. Many of them have leadership component too, so again, I just kept that list of bullet points of some of the things that I’ve done and this just really helped me make the process smoother and faster, and when I went to go actually write one of these, I had something already there to go off of.

12:39 Emily: It kind of seems to me that the more of them you write, the easier it gets, right? Because you can reuse the themes and reuse some of the wording and so forth from your previous submissions.

Building Up Your CV

12:51 Emily: We talked a little about the process of writing applications, but what about the other things that you just mentioned, which was building up your CV, building up your leadership experiences, building up your outreach experiences. What did you find were relevant experiences that you had that you think helped you win these when these awards?

13:16 Anne: I got involved in some of the organizations through my department and through my university. We had some outreach events through my departments that were really fun. I had a good time participating in those. I also started getting involved in the leadership executive board of the professional society chapter at my university. I did that throughout my years in grad school, so I felt like that was really valuable. And again, I kept a list of the deliverables for my research, so I always had that ready to go. I think that was helpful too.

14:02 Emily: Define deliverables, because I’m thinking papers, but maybe there’s some other things in there too.

14:09 Anne: Yeah, papers, presentations. This wasn’t applicable for me, but if there was any media coverage of your research or anything special like that, if your university highlighted your work or a local news station highlighted your work, something like that. Those would be the main deliverables that I’m thinking of.

14:30 Emily: Did you have publications early on that were easy to point to when you have these further applications, like from your masters, for example?

14:40 Anne: Yup.

14:42 Emily: Yeah. I think that just goes into being the kind of candidate who wins these fellowships, having those deliverables come out early. So push for that, I think, is the advice for a current grad students. Don’t try to publish all your papers right at the end. It’s nice to get maybe one out the door early on.

15:00 Anne: Yeah, absolutely.

Writing the Fellowship Application

15:02 Emily: Anything else around advice for writing and winning fellowships?

15:08 Anne: I would say, first of all, if you have any questions about the content of the materials of the application definitely reach out to the organizational contact. It’s an obvious thing, but make sure you’re completing the full application packet. Sometimes they can be pretty long, a little bit complicated, and also don’t give more than they ask for. That might be held against you, potentially. If there’s an essay limit, stick to the essay length limit, things like that. When you’re organizing your essay, make sure you have an introduction. Make sure you have a section that’s organized around your research, the content of what you’ve done before, what your proposal is. Make sure you group any other outreach and leadership experience together. And then also explain how the fellowship could benefit you and your career path. I think the people that are reading, and having been now on the other side, I think it really is nice to know that it really would make an impact to the person if they received the fellowship. They’re not just applying willy-nilly to these. It really would be meaningful and helpful to them, financially too.

16:30 Emily: Can you give an example of that? What’s beyond the obvious of how a fellowship would further your career? Maybe something that you included in one of your essays?

16:41 Anne: Yeah. For instance, the NSF GK-12 fellowship had the teaching component and I think learning about science communication, that was really something that was really important to me, and being able to translate my work to others, that was what I included in that essay. And even though I’m not actively teaching in a professor capacity right now, that really was valuable to me and that really was something that meant a lot to me to gain out of that fellowship.

Commercial

17:18 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs and other early career PhDs, for universities, institutes and conferences, associations, etc. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into financial topics that matter most to PhDs, like taxes, investing, career transitions and frugality. If you are interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking, that’s p f f o r p h d s.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

Financial Impact of Winning a Fellowship

18:08 Emily: Let’s shift gears and talk about the financial effect that winning a fellowship has on you, the awardee. So in your case, what happened? You won some fellowships, what happened with your personal finances?

18:25 Anne: One of the really great things about the fellowships I received was they were actually higher than the RA or TA stipend that I would have otherwise received, so that was really great and definitely a motivation for others to apply for fellowships. They’re often higher than what you would receive from your university. One thing to note is that different fellowships pay out slightly differently, so I had different payment arrangements depending on the years. One fellowship paid at the beginning of the semester, so just twice, and the other paid biweekly, every other week. It made a difference in my monthly budgeting. I didn’t change really how I budgeted because of that necessarily, but depending on how you operate with your budget, it might. The other thing is that the year that I received the the $3,000 Society of Women Engineers Fellowship Scholarship, that was actually on top of the GK-12 fellowships, so I stacked those, which was really cool. That’s sometimes possible as well. I’m trying to think of what else.

19:44 Emily: Well, there’s already a lot there. Let me ask a couple follow-on questions. Okay. So the first one — it sounds like, in total for your years in graduate school, were there two years when you received a fellowship that paid above the baseline stipend or was it more than two years?

20:01 Anne: It was two years.

20:02 Emily: Okay, so two years out of how many?

20:04 Anne: Five.

20:06 Emily: Did you do anything different in those years compared to the other three? For instance, did you live in a different place that was maybe more expensive or were you a little bit freer with your discretionary spending? Or did you end up saving more? What happened to the increase in pay since it wasn’t the entire time since it was only a couple of the years.

20:30 Anne: No, I didn’t change my budget really at all. I probably should have saved a little bit more when I was making the slightly higher salary that one year, but no, I didn’t change it really very much.

20:46 Emily: Okay. I just kind of always think about people who win a multi-year fellowship at the beginning of grad school and then they set their spending level in line with that fellowship. Then at some point they go down to the base stipend and I worry about those people. I’m a little concerned for them. Okay, so you didn’t really change anything but you could have saved more during that time. I think it’s really just about being intentional. Whatever you decided to do with it, just decide and don’t kind of float along with it. Okay, so slight increase in pay, that was one thing. Another thing you mentioned was a change in pay frequency and pay timing. Out of curiosity, when you were an RA or otherwise not on these fellowships, what was the pay frequency for that kind of position?

21:36 Anne: It was every other week.

21:38 Emily: Every other week, so also biweekly.

21:41 Anne: Yes.

21:41 Emily: So the same with one of your fellowships, and then the other one was once per semester?

21:46 Anne: Yes.

21:47 Emily: I can definitely see that the ones per semester might be a challenge, but it sounds like since you were already budgeting, already in that mode, maybe you could handle it a little bit better. How did it work for you? Just explain to me how you managed it.

22:06 Anne: It didn’t change too much. I tracked every dollar in graduate school, I still do, so I was very aware of what my base spending was. It didn’t vary a ton over my years in grad school, so that was the basis of how I budgeted.

22:25 Emily: It sounds like you got this influx of cash into your checking account and you just left it there and kind of drew it down according to your normal spending pattern as the semester went on and then you got another in flow for the next semester. Yeah, I just think that that can be a really challenging situation for someone who doesn’t already have a handle on their finances. Maybe someone who it’s their first semester in a new city — you don’t really know what the expenses are going to be, and you have to make sure that money lasts you until you get that next check coming in. I was thinking actually, how did you handle irregular expenses with your budgeting in grad school? Maybe it’s traveling, or health, dental, vision, those kind of expenses, anything that’s kind of big and occurs one time a year, a couple of times a year. How did you handle that, let’s say with your biweekly pay?

23:22 Anne: Yeah, that’s a good question. I didn’t have a giant emergency fund, but I did keep a small emergency fund throughout grad school. That was where I would draw out of, and again, I kind of honed it in over the course of five years when those expenses would come, so I knew to expect them. I did track it throughout my five years so I could make sure that I wasn’t getting a lifestyle creep or anything and made sure I kept that cushion my emergency fund at all times.

23:57 Emily: Okay, so if that was your method, then having the once per term fellowship wouldn’t change it that much, it’s just you have more money on hand and it goes towards paying these normal, same expenses as always. Because you already had that stuff in place, sounds like it was pretty easy for you and not much difference. I also wanted to ask, you mentioned taxes, right? In one case you didn’t have automatic income tax being withheld, so did you end up paying quarterly estimated tax during that year?

24:30 Anne: No. I remember it took me by surprise when I was filling out my taxes, and again, thankfully I had the emergency fund, but I was just not in that mindset at that time, so I didn’t. I was lucky I had that emergency fund to smooth it over when tax time came and I owed taxes.

24:54 Emily: So it sounds like you weren’t even aware that it wasn’t being withheld.

24:59 Anne: Maybe vaguely, but not properly.

25:00 Emily: But not enough to prepare for it. Fair warning, to any listeners. It sounds like in one case you did have automatic tax withholding, in one case you didn’t, so hey, figure it out. Maybe you’ll be pleasantly surprised that you are having tax withheld from your fellowship. That could be the case, but you certainly need to know if you’re not, either for that large tax bill in April or for paying quarterly estimated tax, if required to.

25:30 Emily: Yeah. Any other effect on your personal finances from winning those fellowships?

25:36 Anne: No, I think that’s about it.

Professional Impact of Winning a Fellowship

25:38 Emily: And how about effects on you as a researcher, as a PhD? Did the fellowships do what they were supposed to do and further your development?

25:48 Anne: They strengthened my credentials, which was wonderful. They gave me the opportunity to attend conferences and present my work. I learned a lot of those conferences and they were inspiring to me. I definitely improved my writing skills through the application process and that continues to help me today. I also feel like the application process, in general, helped me hone my elevator pitch about what I was doing in graduate school, which I thought was really great. Like I said before, I do think it helped me to explore some other interests that I had, while a graduate student, and it also gave me encouragement and support while I was a graduate student, and that meant a lot.

26:42 Emily: I have an article on my site and again, we’ll link it from the show notes. It’s called something like why you should apply for fellowships, even if you’re fully funded as a grad student or postdoc. It was for me, to some degree, tempting to kind of just rest on, “well, I’m going to be funded, I know that’s going to happen, I don’t need to go this extra mile or many extra miles submitting all these applications”. But it really sounds, based on your experience and others, that it’s worthwhile, even just applying, even if you don’t end up winning anything, which like you said, if you end up applying a lot, it’s a numbers game, so hopefully here and there you’ll win something. But even the process of applying without even winning is valuable. Plus, if you do win then further and further, it really develops you as a scholar. I’m really glad to hear your examples of that.

Advice for PhDs and Postdocs Applying to Fellowships

27:37 Emily: Any final concluding words of advice from you on how a person who wins a fellowship can get the most benefit possible out of it, whether it’s financial, whether it’s benefiting them professionally? Any words on that?

27:56 Anne: I would really encourage people to take a look at some of those lesser known fellowships. Especially in my field, I remember there were some really big ones that everybody knew about that were more competitive, but there’s a lot of fellowships out there for all kinds of things. And get creative, try something new. Don’t get discouraged if you don’t get one, because yeah, it’s a numbers game. And have fun.

28:28 Emily: Well, thank you so much for sharing your experience with us and I’m really glad to hear such a positive process and outcome from you.

28:39 Anne: Well, thank you very much, Emily. I had a good time. Thanks.

Outtro

28:42 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to PFforPhDs.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways do so without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode. And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the free music archive, and it’s shared under CC by NC.

How to Find and Apply for Fellowships (with ProFellow Founder Dr. Vicki Johnson)

September 2, 2019 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews fellowship expert Dr. Vicki Johnson, the founder and director of ProFellow. After completing multiple professional fellowships and her PhD, Vicki decided to help other fellowship seekers do the same by creating the ProFellow database, which now contains more than 1,200 professional and academic fellowships. Vicki relays the best way to find and apply for fellowships and gives excellent advice for making your fellowship application stand out. Winning a fellowship is the best way to increase your stipend or salary as a graduate student or postdoc, and Vicki shares from her experience some of the other career benefits that fellowships bring.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Vicki: At the end of the day, these organizations that are outside of the university are funding fellowships as a way to further their social impact mission. So make sure you understand what is the mission of the fellowship organization, why are they funding your research or would want to. Make sure you tie your story to their mission, how you’re going to further their mission. That will make you a more competitive candidate.

Introduction

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode three and today my guest is Dr. Vicki Johnson, the founder and director of ProFellow, the leading online resource for academic and professional fellowships. Vicki herself did four professional fellowships in addition to her funded PhD. Vicki and I discussed the best way to find and apply for academic fellowships, and Vicki gives excellent advice on how to boost your applications’ chances of success. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Vicki Johnson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:06 Emily: Welcome to the podcast. Today, I am joined by Dr. Vicki Johnson, who’s the founder and director of ProFellow, which is a fantastic fellowships database and just amazing resource for graduate students and postdocs and anyone pursuing fellowships kind of in any way. Vicki and I are going to be talking today about everything fellowships. How do you find them? How do you apply for them? How do you win them? Because she is really the premier expert on this topic in our space. So Vicki, thank you so much for joining us today.

01:41 Vicki: Thank you for having me!

01:42 Emily: Can you tell us just a couple words about your background? You know, you have a PhD and how you got started with ProFellow.

01:50 Vicki: Sure. I actually started out in the fellowship world as a professional. I did four professional fellowships in the field of policy and I did some in the U.S. and some abroad. As I was progressing through my career, I did my Masters and then ultimately did my PhD, which was actually just a serendipitous thing that I did while I was on a professional fellowship. Then I had a major career transition about five years ago and decided to teach other people about how to find and win fellowships through ProFellow. And now I’m fully focused on that as my thing. I love fellowships, and I’m excited to tell people more about them.

How Do You Define “Fellowship”?

02:27 Emily: Yeah, it sounds like you have a ton of personal experience as well as your extensive professional experience. So yeah, let’s get started with that– with a pretty basic definition. What is a fellowship? Because that term can mean a lot of different things depending on who you’re talking to. So how do you define it?

02:45 Vicki: So for the purpose of our website, we sort of decided that the definition would be “short-term funded opportunities to do something exceptional.” So there’s a lot of funding opportunities, professional development opportunities, graduate school funding opportunities that aren’t necessarily called fellowship and title, but they do provide funding. They are time-limited, so they’re usually anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of years in length. And they provide you the resources and the network that you typically wouldn’t get in either a job or even just the regular scholarship. So it’s a pretty broad definition. People typically have heard of postdoctoral fellowships or they’ve heard of scholarships and things. But it’s a really very broad definition. So there’s quite a few professionals fellowships and also a whole other world of academic fellowships.

03:36 Emily: Yeah. And so I think today we’re going to be focused mostly on those academic fellowships, the ones that will pay your stipend, maybe pay some tuition and fees, pay your salary if you’re at the postdoc level. But just so people are aware, your site covers much more than that. And in fact, I did a policy fellowship myself after I finished my PhD. It was the, the Mirzayan Fellowship in DC. And that’s something that I wrote about for your site because that fellowship is one among the many others that you cover. But we will be focusing today on those academic fellowships. But just for anyone who’s thinking about another fellowship opportunity, still go back to ProFellow because it’s going to be an amazing resources for you as well. So with these academic fellowships, how do you go about finding them? We’ve all heard probably of the standout one in each of our fields, whatever that is, but there are going to be a whole lot more, too. So how do we go about finding these fellowships?

How to Use ProFellow to Find Fellowships

04:26 Vicki: Well here I’m going to do a big plug for the site profellow.com because we have an enormous database of fellowships at both the professional and academic level. So if you sign up for free to use ProFellow, you can create an account and come in and search our huge database. And within it there are filters. So you can either select fellowships for doctoral study, graduate study, which would include masters programs and postdoctoral research in addition to professional, even summer fellowships for students. You can narrow it down that way and then you can also narrow them down by discipline, your citizenship, years of work experience. I would also say use certain keywords. So let’s say you’re working in conservation. You can use that as a keyword in the database. But for the most part, I tell people to keep their search filters quite broad because there are a lot of fellowships that are multidisciplinary in nature.

05:18 Vicki: So even if it’s not specifically a conservation fellowship, there could be a whole range of fellowships that you can do a conservation related research project, or dissertation research or whatever, with the fellowship because it might be a broader social sciences fellowship or STEM fellowship. So keep your search broad and take the time to look through. We purposely made the listings so that they’re really brief and easy to skim and you can bookmark opportunities. And then you can also from the listing go to the website to learn more. And honestly, I only say this because it’s true. We are a better place to look for fellowships than, say, on Google. If you Google these things, you’ll come up with all sorts of stuff that may or may not be relevant to what you’re looking for. And it’s very difficult to find fellowships on Google or even just through word of mouth. So, use the website. It’s free, and it’s a great way to also find out about new opportunities that are coming up every year.

How Do You Maintain the ProFellow Database?

06:12 Emily: Yeah, thank you so much for that. I’ve been referring to ProFellow for many years as a key database for all of this, and it’s exciting to hear what all you do. I’m actually wondering how you find all these fellowships. Are you well-known enough that these new programs just e-mail you when they have something new coming up, or how do you maintain this database?

06:31 Vicki: Oh, good question. Well, back in the day, nobody knew who we were. But now that we’ve been around since 2011, we have a brand name in the fellowship industry. And honestly, some of the larger categories of fellowships– like, let’s say you’re Googling journalism fellowships or mid-career fellowships or postdoctoral fellowships– ProFellow will rank some of our articles at the top of the list. There are other keywords that we’re still fighting for to get to the top of the list. But if you’re listening to this and you’ve heard of us, you’ll see that. And we’re also very active in the fellowship industry. I just came back from a conference in DC, the Impact Fellowships Summit. So, our name is growing. We’re still a bit skewed toward, U.S. Citizens, U.S. Students, or people coming to the U.S. in terms of what funding is out there. But we are also growing globally. So we are getting more and more fellowships for non-U.S. citizens, international students, or people from other countries going to non-U.S. countries. So, it’s growing. So, there are more and more things. The more you share us with your friends and your colleagues and your professors, the more well-known we will be and even more fellowships we will list.

Applying for Academic Fellowships

07:40 Emily: Yeah, wonderful. Okay, so we have a grad student or a postdoc or an aspiring one of those categories who wants to win a fellowship. What’s the application process like for these academic fellowships?

07:54 Vicki: Yes, well, if you have never applied to a fellowship before, you’ll see that actually it can be similar to applying to graduate school. Usually, there’s a personal statement, recommendation letters, short answers that you have to respond to. In many cases, for the academic or research-related fellowships, you might even have to put in a research proposal. That could be anything from a really brief research proposal to something that’s really long and intense. So, it’s different for every fellowship. I say, get started early. The first thing you should identify is: what do you need to include in the application? I think if you’re in graduate school, you’ll be used to this process of writing a personal statement and talking about your goals, what you want to achieve in your research, so that experience will help you as you pursue the fellowships.

08:42 Emily: So I liked that you drew parallels between the process of applying to graduate school and the process of applying for fellowships. In fact, sometimes even the timing of those things can come together. Right? Do you find that fall is a heavy fellowship season or is it kind of spread out around the year?

08:58 Vicki: Oh yeah, that’s a very good question. Yeah, typically it’s just like the graduate school process where it’s based on the academic year. So you do want to look for fellowships as early as possible. Deadlines tend to fall anywhere between October and January. That’s kind of a typical, what we call, fellowship season. And so if you’re looking for funding, it’s often not very easy to get a fellowship that’s going to fund your next semester right away or even in a few weeks or a few months. Usually, you’re looking a year out. So that’s why, let’s say you’re entering your coming year– your academic year. The fellowships that you apply to this fall typically will fund your following academic year. So yes, keep that in mind. It’s an important kind of timeline that people should be aware of when they’re looking for fellowships.

How to Get Ahead of Fellowship Deadlines

09:42 Emily: Yeah. This is definitely something you need to plan ahead for. Can you tell me a little bit more about, not necessarily the timeline about the fellowship applications cause presumably they just have a due date, but all the various components that could go into an application. Different kinds of essays, letters, just stuff that you need to be working on. Like what do you need work on well in advance of these deadlines?

10:03 Vicki: Well, I think it’s really important if you’re looking for funding for academic research, say your dissertation, to do field work and that sort of thing. A lot of times what the fellowship organizations want to know is they want to know that you’re going to be successful. So when they fund you, they want to know that your project can be successfully completed in the time period of the fellowship with the resources available with the funding available.

10:25 Vicki: So if you’re applying for, say, like a summer fellowship that is only three months in length. That’s not enough time to do your entire dissertation. You’re probably just doing one element of it. So make sure that your research proposal, if that’s part of your application, really reflects what the fellowship is offering and what can be accomplished in that. Because feasibility is very important. It doesn’t matter how great your ideas is; if it’s not feasible, it won’t make it to the next stage. And in the personal statement too, they want to see more about why you’re passionate about your research topic. What are your longterm goals? Often people forget to put in what their career goals are or what they’re going to do after the fellowship. That’s really important. Make sure to include those because at the end of the day, these organizations that are outside of the university are funding fellowships as a way to further their social impact mission. So make sure you understand what is the mission of the fellowship organization, why are they funding your research or would want to. Make sure you tie your story to their mission, how you’re going to further their mission. That will make you a more competitive candidate. So those are, I would say, the main things to include.

Commercial

11:29 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs, and other early career PhDs for universities, institutes and conferences, associations, et cetera. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you are interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking that’s p f f o r p h d s.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

More Advice for Fellowship Applicants

12:18 Emily: Yeah, so it sounds like there are some of these elements, you know, essays that you can reuse much of for several different applications that you might have. But some things are definitely going to have to be tailored to the specific organization.

12:30 Vicki: Absolutely. My mantra is that the amount of effort that you put into your application directly correlates with your likelihood of success. So, I know people don’t want to hear that, “Aw, man, I have to put a lot of time into my application,” because on top of it you’re studying and you’re working, you’re doing other things. But it’s true that when you’re focusing on an application, start it as early as possible because then you can break out times on your calendar to be able to focus just on the application and also make sure to tie in your professors, your mentors. They’ve been doing this a long time. Many of them have won multiple fellowships, multiple grants and funding awards. Don’t do this in a little silo by yourself. Make sure you tell your advisors, your professors that you’re applying for the fellowships because they could have some great insights. They may even be connected to the fellowship in some way you might not be aware of. So, be sure to reach out for advice from those groups, too.

How to Stand Out as a Fellowship Applicant

13:29 Emily: Yeah, we’re definitely getting into some good advice here for fellowship applicants. These fellowships presumably get hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of applications. What’s going to really make a candidate stand out and make a fellowship application look very, very strong?

13:48 Vicki: Yeah. The two main things, especially with the academic research, if you are applying to a fellowship that is being funded by a foundation, a nonprofit government agency, NGO, whatever that is, make sure that you understand the mission of the organization. I think I mentioned this already, but a lot of people sort of skip over this part. They are so wrapped up in explaining their research and why they want to do it that they don’t really tie why their research aligns with the mission of the organization. So it’s very, very, very important that you touch on that mission. They may not ask you how you feel about their mission. They may not ask you how it ties to their mission. But when you think about the other group, the other person–the investors, as I like to call it–they’re investing in you. Make sure you make a really clear reason as to why they should invest in you because they have a purpose for the fellowship and you have a purpose for your research and you’ve got to make sure they tie together.

14:47 Emily: Yeah. Excellent. Any other advice for making an outstanding fellowship application, but let’s say also just an outstanding fellowship applicant? What can you do in your life that will go on your CV or that people will be able to write about in your letters that will help you stand out?

Fellowships: More than Just the Fellowship

15:05 Vicki: You know, I think some people get a little bit intimidated by the fellowship process. Like you said, there’s hundreds, thousands of applications and it can be really disappointing to get a rejection letter from a fellowship that you worked really hard on the application on. But just keep in mind that the effort that you put in, your professors and your supervisors are watching as you do this. And so even if you’re rejected, I’m telling you, there’s something extra that you get. I don’t know what the right word is, that will help you as you go further in your career. So it’s not all for not if you don’t get into the fellowship. But also, if you do get into a fellowship, make sure to take advantage of the wider resources that the fellowship offers.

15:49 Vicki: There’s usually an alumni network. They’re connected to high-level organizations and leaders in your field, both in the U.S. And globally. Take full advantage of every opportunity that the fellowship provides beyond just the funding that they’re going to give you. Because we all know that when it comes to career tracks that, these days to get a job, you have to be in the know. You have to know somebody, you have to be an influencer, you have to have personal connections. And these are things that are very valuable that you can get out of the fellowship. But also, these personal connections that you make are also very valuable when you’re applying to fellowships, too. So as you’re applying, reach out to alumni, reach out to professors and mentors, get as much advice as you can. All of this, little bit incrementally, adds to your success long-term.

How Often Should I Apply for Fellowships?

16:37 Emily: Yeah, I’m really glad you brought up the other benefits of winning a fellowship aside from the funding itself. So I had a friend in graduate school who was a Hertz Fellow. I was blown away by the number of networking events and opportunities to meet potential employers that that fellowship provided. It was truly outstanding, and I don’t know that there are that many others that go to that degree. But certainly as you said, there are alumni networks that you can be connected to. Really, it is another way of networking. A very, very good, strong networking connection to have won a fellowship. One other thing I wanted to ask you about: another guest that I just had on who was a fellowship applicant said something along the lines of, “it’s sort of a numbers game.” You just need to apply to a lot of stuff and hopefully, here and there you’ll win something. But really, as you said, each fellowship application takes a good amount of time dedicated to it. Would you say that people should be applying to a few fellowships every year? Not necessarily like full, “it’s going to pay everything” fellowships, but just some kind of award that they could go up for.

17:42 Vicki: To be honest, I’m not really in the mind frame of the numbers game. I’ve heard people say that. I’ve heard multi-award winners say that. As as I said, I have won multiple fellowships, but for each of them I was sort of applying for them one at a time. When you’re applying to graduate school or looking for graduate funding, often you do have to apply for a few at a time in the hopes that you get one of them. But I don’t know necessarily that it’s a numbers game where you just throw out a million applications and hope that one sticks, because I do think that approach could also distract you a little bit from really putting in the focus that you need to create a strong application. I would say just make sure that you’re a good fit for the programs that you’re applying to.

18:23 Vicki: If it really is a stretch, is your research actually furthering the mission of the organization? If it’s really a stretch, it might not really be worth applying to. Whereas if you find two or three fellowships that you think you’d be a really good candidate for, go for all three, because it will be worthwhile. And I should also say people should look into summer fellowships too, which are just kind of brief summertime fellowships that are specifically for students. Some of them are professional in nature. Some of them are for academic research as well. But even those little summer fellowships give you those professional networks and experiences that you can’t get otherwise and they’re very, very good for your post-graduation career goals.

Final Advice for Fellowship Applicants: Be Yourself

19:06 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for your insight on that. I’m going to ask you a little more about ProFellow in a moment, but just before we get there, any final words of advice for fellowship applicants?

19:17 Vicki: Oh, just be yourself, too. I think people worry too much about telling the organization what they want to hear. And I do teach people about the social psychology of really understanding the mission and making sure that you link your work to that. But at the same time, to be your authentic self is really valuable. There are people reading these applications. They’re not robots. They’re people. So, tell your story, your authentic story, and really be yourself. And if you get thrown a hard question, answer it as honestly as you can. If it was meant to be, it will be.

Additional Resources at ProFellow

19:51 Emily: Okay. So tell us a little bit more about ProFellow. You’ve talked about the database a little bit already, but I know you have a lot more stuff going on aside from just, this is where we can search for fellowships.

20:00 Vicki: Sure. At profellow.com, we do have this huge database of funding opportunities that you can search. We also do articles featuring fellows and ask them about their fellowship experience and their application tips. So it’s a great place to hear what fellowship alumni say about how they made their application stand out, what they did to get above the hundreds of thousands of applicants. We also do listicles, we do articles. Specifically, “10 fellowships in policy,” “25 dissertation fellowships.” So we have a lot of resources that help you find the fellowships and get the tips. We also have workshops, usually on a monthly basis, on everything from creating a great personal statement to creating an exceptional research proposal.

20:45 Vicki: So if you’re on our mailing list, you’ll be alerted to those things as well. And actually, next week and two weeks from now I’m doing a Fulbright applicant mastermind for people that are applying for the international Fulbright awards. So that’s something that if you’re considering as an enrolled student for either your field work or just to have an international experience, a Fulbright is something you can consider. But yeah, we have all sorts of stuff. We even have ProFellow academy, which is another platform for free advising. So you can ask questions, connect with fellowship alumni, have office hours. So yeah, we’re just chockfull of resources. Most of it’s free. So, sign up, get on our mailing list and then you will have access and also get alerts about new fellowship opportunities.

How to Connect with ProFellow

21:26 Emily: Yeah, that sounds amazing. I’m actually trying to think, “oh, is there any fellowship that I could apply for? Does that fit in my life right now?” One of those professional fellowships that you mentioned. So profellow.com, is that the best place to go? Or are you on social? Any other contact information you want to share?

21:41 Vicki: Oh, yes. You’ll find us also on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn. But really just go to profellow.com. That’s the place to be. Sign up right on the homepage and that’ll get you right into the database. You can also search our site for all the other great stuff. Be on the lookout for our biweekly newsletter, ProFellow Insider.

22:00 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much, Vicki for joining me on the podcast today and sharing your expertise with us.

22:06 Vicki: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Outtro

22:08 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to pfforphds.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to do so without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC.

This PhD Student in Texas Side Hustles to Overcome Her Unique Financial Challenges

August 26, 2019 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Allie Judge, a second-year PhD student at Baylor College of Medicine. Allie outlines her top five expenses in Houston, TX as well as her financial goals. Allie receives a good stipend, but her pet sitting side hustle enables her to supercharge her financial progress. She uses her stipend for her living expenses and Roth IRA contributions and her side hustle income to pay down her student loans and medical debt and fund her travel to see her long-distance partner. She concludes with excellent budgeting advice for other graduate students.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Allie: Now during a slow month, I usually net about $300-400 a month. Right now during the literal hot months, also when people are taking a lot of vacation and wanting to get out of the Houston heat, I’ll usually net $700-800. so it’s going well.

Introduction

00:24 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode two and today my budget breakdown guest is Allie Judge, a PhD student at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas. Allie details her income from her stipend and lucrative side hustle and her top five monthly expenses. Two of Allie’s unique financial challenges are high medical bills and her long distance relationship and her ongoing financial goals are to max out her Roth IRA and repay her non-deferred student loans. You won’t want to miss the budgeting advice she shares at the end of the interview. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Allie Judge.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:16 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Allie Judge, who is going to share with us her budget breakdown — her top expenses and financial goals for her recent months. Allie, it’s a real pleasure to have you here and I’m looking forward to all the interesting subjects we’ll be covering in this episode. Will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

01:26 Allie: Thanks. I am a second year PhD student at Baylor College of Medicine in the Biochem department living in Houston, Texas right now.

01:46 Emily: Excellent. Is it just you in your household?

01:51 Allie: I have a roommate and a cat, but other than that, just me.

01:56 Emily: Great. How much money do you make?

01:59 Allie: Our stipend actually recently went up. It was $32,000/year coming in and went up to $33,500 starting this month, I think.

Pet-sitting Side Hustle

02:10 Emily: Very nice. Decent raise year over year. I understand you have a side hustle as well.

02:16 Allie: I do. I am a dog sitter on Rover. I started when I was a research tech and was paid even less than I am now, and have continued through grad school.

02:27 Emily: I’m sure a lot of people will be interested in that side hustle, so can you tell us about what it entails a bit, how much money you’re making, maybe hourly, if you know that, and that kind of stuff?

02:39 Allie: Getting started was pretty easy. You just have to do a background check that costs $10, which was nice. Of course, I had to earn reviews on the site and that took a little while. I didn’t make a whole lot of money at first, but now during a slow month, I usually net about $300-400 a month. Right now, during the literal hot months, also when people are taking a lot of vacation and wanting to get out of the Houston heat, I’ll usually net $700-800, so it’s going well.

03:13 Emily: That is very nice. What kind of time commitment is that?

03:18 Allie: I primarily do house-sitting, just because the other services tend to be requests that come in the middle of the day and I don’t like to take time in the middle of the day from lab. When I house-sit, I usually just stay at their house overnight and it’ll be maybe an hour or two a day of taking a walk with a dog or feeding, and cumulative attention time that I can usually multitask a little bit during.

03:47 Emily: That’s really interesting. I didn’t know anything about this service. Although I’ve heard of it before, I did not realize that hous-sitting was a component. That definitely seems like a pretty lucrative way to do this. I’m really glad you found a way to be able to stay at work all day and not be walking dogs in the high heat of the day. And presumably you love animals. Is this a fun thing for you to do?

04:11 Allie: Yeah, definitely. I’ve always grown up with dogs and cats and I had pet-sat for neighbors and such, so it was pretty easy to get testimonials on my little profile, but you can have friends and family do it too to get you started.

04:25 Emily: Thank you so much for telling us about that side hustle because if anyone is interested, loves animals, and wants a side hustle, that seems like a really, really good one to be doing. Why did you choose to go through Rover instead of striking out on your own?

04:45 Allie: As opposed to just independently pet-sitting? They do take 20% of your profit, so that’s a huge chunk, but the exposure that you get is so much better. I’ve lived in major metropolitan areas, and I just would not be able to network. Even with the 20%, I feel like it’s for sure worth the advertising.

05:12 Emily: Do you end up getting any repeat clients?

05:18 Allie: Absolutely. I think right now, this summer, it’s almost been entirely repeat clients just because now they’re going on longer vacations and want someone they’ve had before. A few of them will kind of go off platform, or some of them will try to suggest that at first I say, “No, we should stay on the platform because I don’t know you and you don’t know me.”.

05:44 Emily: Thanks again for that detail. You’re making what sounds like pretty decent stipend income, especially for Houston, I would imagine, plus you have this very significant side hustle.

#1 Expense

Emily: I’m really curious now to dive into your top five budget line items for each month. You said you’re going to be doing your most recent months in this summery, right?

06:07 Allie: Yeah.

06:08 Emily: Let’s dive into it. What is that top expense?

06:10 Allie: My top five would be my rent, some recent medical bills, student loans and groceries, in addition to travel, which I try to contribute to monthly, but doesn’t always happen.

06:25 Emily: Yeah, that sounds great. So top one, rent, of course, unsurprising there. What are you paying and what are you getting for it?

06:32 Allie: Thankfully I have a roommate that shares my two bedroom, two bath in Houston. We each pay $600 right now.

06:40 Emily: Sounds very decent. What’s the proximity to campus?

06:45 Allie: It’s about a 15 minute bus ride

06:48 Emily: And that’s how you typically commute?

06:50 Allie: Yeah. Gigantic medical center with very expensive parking.

06:55 Emily: How do you like using the buses? Is it a decent system?

07:01 Allie: I would say that given Houston traffic, I’d much rather take an extra five minutes on the bus, then have to deal with people on the road in the morning and in the evening.

07:12 Emily: And do you own a car at all?

07:15 Allie: I do. That’s pretty necessary in Houston. I am fortunately not paying my car insurance yet because it’s still in my parents’ name. That is not crucial but helpful.

07:30 Emily: So, fifteen minute bus ride — how do you like the location where you live other than that? Are we talking city, is it walkable to a lot of stuff, how is it?

07:42 Allie: It’s an area called “”condo land” so there’s a lot of condos, and it’s a lot of families, that type of thing. It is not the safest place if you go a block this way or a block that way, but generally where we are is pretty quiet.

08:01 Emily: That sounds good. Is your roommate another graduate student, or someone you found outside of the university?

08:07 Allie: I moved into the two bedroom by myself because I didn’t want to just find a roommate on Craigslist. Then, after about six months, my roommate was looking for a place to live too and moved on in.

08:22 Emily: That’s a nice way to be able to vet the person you live with before you commit to that relationship.

08:29 Allie: She is a grad student. I don’t know if I said that.

#2 Expense

08:32 Emily: Yeah, it sounds great. Okay. Expense number two?

08:36 Allie: Expense number two would be these medical bills I have coming up. It’s about $450 a month and then this month I had to make a quick trip to the emergency room and it was about $350 extra. So if you can go to urgent care, this is my big takeaway from that.

08:56 Emily: How is your health insurance?

09:03 Allie: We do have free health insurance through our graduate program, like a lot of biomedical students do. It’s generally pretty good for the most routine stuff. Hopefully I’ll be meeting the maximum out of pocket expense soon.

09:22 Emily: There are probably some people in my audience who have never really dealt with health insurance that much. What we’re talking about is usually you’re used to paying a copay and maybe co-insurance, a percentage of the bill above a certain amount. Maybe there a deductible to meet. But at some point, hopefully the plan will have a not crazy-high maximum amount of money you will pay out of pocket, after which everything should be 100% covered, usually in network, right?

09:51 Allie: Yes.

09:53 Emily: You’ll may be meeting that at some point. And it’s hard, it’s tough to pay until you get to that point. But you can kind of look forward to say at least after that point for the rest of the calendar year, I’m not going to have any more out of pocket expenses should things go as they usually will. For those of you who are thinking about creating an emergency fund, having the amount of money to meet that whole out of pocket yearly expense in an emergency fund is a pretty good number to take a look at. It may be a few thousand dollars, or may be lower or may be higher depending on the type of plan that you have.

#3 Expense

10:29 Emily: Thanks for telling us about that. Hopefully this will not be a large expense in your budget forever. So your third expense?

10:37 Allie: So my third expense is my student loans. Right now with the medical expenses, I’m paying the minimum payment, which is $204, I think, but prior to those expenses I was throwing more like $500 or $700 a month, whatever my Rover income allowed.

10:57 Emily: Why are you paying student loans right now as a grad student?

11:04 Allie: As an undergrad I went to my small liberal arts college and took out plenty of student loans for it.

11:11 Emily: I guess what I mean is you have the option to defer your student loans, but you’ve sounds like you’ve chosen not to. Talk me through that decision.

11:20 Allie: My student loans are through the government, they’re public student loans and they granted discount of 2.5% interest if you set it to auto pay. I not only wanted to get my loans paid down, but there is actually a benefit to having them not deferred and being able to set them to auto pay.

11:40 Emily: Are any of these loans subsidized or are they all unsubsidized? Is there any calculation you’ve done there?

11:49 Allie: They’re unsubsidized. I believe that if you have subsidized loans, they don’t collect interest during deferment. So that 0.25% would be irrelevant.

11:59 Emily: It’s an unusual decision, I think. Some graduate students I talk to pay on their student loans, but you’re the first person I’ve talked with who has chosen not to defer at all, but it sounds like based on your totally decent stipend income, plus all your side hustle income, that minimum payment of $200 a month is totally manageable. Plus, you usually are able to pay much more than that, so I definitely think this can be a very, very smart decision. It’s just an unusual one, but I think it potentially is a really good one in your situation. It must feel good to be working on paying down that debt at whatever interest rate it’s at since it’s unsubsidized. You know, many, many people in our community will, during graduate school be watching that interest accrue if they’re not able to make payments, and that’s a painful thing to do, right? I’m glad to hear that you are being proactive about paying these down.

12:57 Allie: And it helps to know that I could defer them if expenses really were tight.

#4 Expense

13:03 Emily: All right, fourth expense?

13:07 Allie: So my fourth expense would be groceries. I spend about $200 a month on groceries. I probably could bring it down, but I’m trying to prevent myself from going to restaurants more and more.

13:21 Emily: There’s, of course, an interplay there, between grocery spending and eating out spending, so you’ve chosen to maybe spend a little bit more on groceries but not eat out very much, sounds like.

13:33 Allie: Yeah, I keep my restaurant budget to $50 a month or less.

13:38 Emily: Do you have any guidelines for yourself around when you do choose to eat out?

13:46 Allie: I’m in a long distance relationship, so when my partner, who lives in a small town in New York, comes to Houston where there’s an array of restaurants, that’s when we tend to eat out.

13:58 Emily: $200 a month on groceries sounds pretty low to me, actually, for one person. Are there any particular strategies that you use around grocery shopping, or around cooking, that you’d like to share?

14:11 Allie: It helps that I do live in a major urban area, so I’ll usually check out the mailer on Aldi deals and I’ll go shop at Aldi and then I’ll check out the same for Kroger and I’ll make a trip there and they’re within 10 minutes, which is convenient.

14:28 Emily: Love that your using Aldi. I used to shop at Aldi when I lived in Durham. I don’t have one close to me now, but if anyone in the audience is near an Aldi and has not checked it out, you really owe it to yourself. You won’t necessarily get all your grocery shopping done there, but you can get a lot of your staples and the prices are amazing. It’s a different kind of shopping experience. I prefer it to the standard grocery store. And Allie, how do you manage cooking as a graduate student and also as someone who’s doing all this house-sitting. If you’re not in your home a lot of the time, how do you manage that?

15:03 Allie: I do usually meal prep. Not to an extreme where my freezer is stocked full, but I’ll usually have at least half of the meals I need for the week done on Sunday. So that for the rest of the meals I can take a little more time or enjoy cooking a little more. Or sometimes it’s just a very quick canned soup kind of night.

15:28 Emily: I presume you bring your lunch with you virtually every day and then you would also be packing food when you’re going on job somewhere?

15:39 Allie: A lot of my friends do buy food almost every day in the cafeteria. I can’t imagine how much more that would cost.

15:50 Emily: Do you eat lunch with other people or do you eat by yourself?

15:54 Allie: I’m not in the immunology program, but the first year immunology students have adopted me into their friend-circle, so I usually try to catch up and eat lunch with them now that we don’t have classes together.

16:06 Emily: I think that’s one of the wonderful things about being on a campus is that it’s totally fine to bring your lunch into cafeterias or whatnot, public-ish eating spaces, and it’s not a weird thing to do. It’s not like you’re paying to have access to that space with the food that you buy. It’s great that you can be social and bring your lunch every day. I wanted hear a tiny bit more about meal prep, maybe just the resources that you use to learn about that?

16:35 Allie: I’m subscribed to a lot of subreddits that have recipes, Eat Cheap and Healthy and Meal Prep Sunday and that give some loose inspiration for recipes that all then go search for myself.

Commercial

16:53 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs and other early career PhDs, for universities, institutes and conferences, associations, etc. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs, like taxes, investing, career transitions and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at PFforPhDs.com/speaking. That’s p f f o r p h d s.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

#5 Expense

17:41 Emily: All right then, your fifth expense in your budget?

17:44 Allie: That last expense that has not gotten much love recently is typically travel. That’s a secondary savings account where I throw whatever extra I have that I have decided not to put toward my student loans that month into a designated savings account for travel. That way when I find a cheap flight, I can go ahead and book it and I don’t have worry about whether I can afford it that month.

18:12 Emily: It sounds like it varies, but what would you say average you’re putting into that savings account?

18:19 Allie: On average it’s about $200.

18:23 Emily: Tell me a little bit more about how you’re managing the long distance relationship with respect to the money and the travel components of it beause I know this is a really common thing in the PhD population. How does it work for you?

18:36 Allie: What we do is we split our flights 50/50 pretty much every time and those tend to be between $300 and $500 because it is a pretty small airport that I’m flying into. Unfortunately, he is in law school and collecting student loans at 9% interest, so while we do split 50/50, kind of as the agreement because we’re not married yet, I try to be mindful and foot some of the bill if I can and have a lot of extra.

19:18 Emily: Do you find that you are traveling about at the same frequency to see one another or does one of you travel more?

19:24 Allie: It’s varied, just on convenience for whichever one of us has the time. At Baylor, we have a week break between terms in the first year that we take classes, so it made more sense for me to go see him for a couple of those breaks. Then of course he had a fall break and spring break, so he came to see me for that. It was more circumstantial than it was just trying to keep it even on who had to travel.

20:00 Emily: I almost forgot that classes were involved with being a PhD student because that will not be the case for much of your degree, but presumably he’ll have classes that he has to attend the entire time. Do you see that changing up at all once you’re free from that aspect of your scheduling?

20:20 Allie: Good point. We finish classes in a year at Baylor so I’m done, which means I will probably be taking more time to go see him. He tends not to have classes on Fridays in law school, so it’s more likely that I make a Thursday night trip to go see him.

20:38 Emily: Are you able to work remotely when you travel or are you still considering one of those days a work day?

20:45 Allie: I have not talked depth with my PI about any kind of specific arrangement, but I do have a pretty heavy computational component to my research, so that would probably make it easier.

20:58 Emily: Yeah, it’s really nice to have that flexibility. I remember much of my PhD having to go in and feed cells on weekends and that it makes travel a little bit difficult. You have to really plan long-term to be able to be away from more than a couple of days. Have you started using any kinds of travel hacking strategies or travel rewards strategies since you are taking the same kinds of flights pretty frequently?

Travel Hacking and Strategies

21:25 Allie: First of all, your best friend is Google Flights. It’ll help you track prices so you can decide when is the best time to buy your tickets and it’ll send you email notifications and it’s been really helpful. We tend to just fly the cheapest airlines that will fly between us, which includes three different airlines, so I have not gotten a co-branded credit card, but I have used points and cash back from credit cards. Right now, I have a Chase card that gives me 2% back on all travel and the points can be redeemed usually at a higher value than just simple cashback. That’s what we’ve been using to book flights, when we can, through their travel portal. The signup bonuses have also been really helpful in getting us a couple free flights back and forth.

22:22 Emily: That’s excellent. The Chase card that you’re using, or maybe in general, do you use cards that have an annual fee or always ones that don’t?

22:31 Allie: That is my only card that has an annual fee actually, and I mostly got that card for the signup bonus. A lot of them you can do the first year with no annual fee, so I’ll have to decide at the end of the year whether that annual fee will be worth it for next year.

22:49 Emily: Thanks for sharing those strategies. I did not really get into travel hacking when I was in graduate school because living in Durham and flying to lots of different parts of the country, I was always taking different airlines, so at that time I was kind of like, “Well, it doesn’t really make sense. I’m never loyal to one airline.” I didn’t get a co-branded card at that time. Now that I live in Seattle, I fly Alaska so much because it’s a hub, so at this point, for my specific situation, it makes a lot more sense to get that card and just take the strategy a whole different way. I’m really glad to hear that you found a solution that’s working for you, even though you aren’t loyal to one airline, and using those general rewards cards that work across any type of travel is an excellent way to do that, so thank you so much for sharing that with us.

23:34 Allie: Still make a frequent flyer account for any airline that you’re going to fly on, because if you fly on it again, you might collect enough points to do something with it.

23:45 Emily: Great point.

What are your top financial goals?

23:46 Emily: Okay, so that was your, your top five expenses. Let’s then switch to talking about your financial goals, if you have any. We’ve already talked about paying above the minimum payment on those student loans, so that’s awesome that you’re doing that. Are you working on any other financial goals?

Maxing out Roth IRA

24:02 Allie: I’m also at the moment maxing out my Roth IRA for retirement, so that’s $500 a month since the maximum contribution is now $6,000 a year. I decided not to dip into that goal for these medical expenses that have come up because my student loan interest is only 4% and generally that’s kind of the breaking point on when you’re likely to beat the market and a non-taxable account versus paying down debt.

24:34 Emily: Thanks for that insight. I really love that now in 2019 we have that $6,000 limit on the IRA because it makes the math so much easier. It’s $500 every month. I don’t know if you think about things this way, but are your Roth IRA contributions coming from your stipend, or are they coming from your side hustle income?

24:55 Allie: So I do track my budget on Mint, but I’ve also been putting it into a spreadsheet so I can plan ahead because Mint won’t let you plan for next month. I put my money in one big pot, but because my IRA is something that I would not stop contributing to if I didn’t have Rover income, I’d probably say it comes from my stipend.

25:22 Emily: That makes sense. In terms of your priorities, maxing out your IRA comes before paying off your student loans and so you’re using a side hustle income really for the student loans and the contribution to the IRA as the more stable, constant goal that you have. Well, I think that’s just fantastic that you’re able to and that you’re choosing to max out that IRA. I’m so excited for you.

Emily: If anyone is thinking about doing an IRA during grad school, I’ll link in the show notes, a post that I’ve done about how much of a difference to your net worth doing that IRA during graduate school will make. Top line numbers, you can read more about it in the post, is that if you contribute $250 per month during grad school for five years, and we make some assumptions about your rate of return, if you look out 50 years from when you finish, you will be solidly into retirement at that point, that contribution just during graduate school turns into $1 million based on these compound interest calculations. You contributing $500 a month, if you do that for five years, we’re looking at $2 million, 50 years out from graduate school. Again making certain assumptions, but that’s the kind of scale that we’re talking about for making room for this within your stipend and your budget and so forth. I’m really excited for you, Allie, and what the future holds for your finances.

Targeted Savings Accounts

26:52 Emily: Any other goals that you want to discuss now?

26:55 Allie: Other than that student loan, which is kind of on the back burner, I’ve hit my emergency fund goal and some other savings goals. I do have separate designated savings accounts for my cat in case of medical expenses and for my car, just for repairing and eventually in like five or six years, probably buying a new car.

27:23 Emily: It sounds like you’re employing what I call the targeted savings accounts model or sinking funds model, which is excellent. I really love that for graduate students to help them through the months where one, two, three large expenses hit and your normal cash flow can’t handle that. I’m really glad to hear about that.

What are your top financial tips for your peers?

27:41 Emily: So let’s wrap up here, Allie, with your best advice for your peers.

27:46 Allie: One big thing is keeping some extra money in that checking account. This will allow you to automate everything. What I did is I contributed to my emergency savings until I had some extra and then I just pulled that back into the checking account. That way I had $500 buffer so that on first of the month I can always pay my rent, so that I set those credit cards to auto pay, so that I set my targeted savings accounts to auto withdraw, and the same for my retirement and my student loans. It just makes me worry so much less. Then my second tip is for those with a side gig, if you can, push the income you get from that side gig into next month’s budget. For a little while, I was taking the $50 I made last week and including it in this month’s budget, which made for really erratic budgeting and also made me more likely to put that $50 toward something I want to do instead of a savings goal.

28:49 Emily: I think those two pieces of advice are really excellent and I’ll just expound on them a little bit more. The basic concept that you’re talking about, with pushing your income forward into next month, is what I call being on time with your budget. I recently read the book You Need a Budget*. So there’s a budgeting software, You Need a Budget, and there’s an associated book called You Need a Budget. What they call it is aging your money. What this means is basically in the course of a month, whatever paychecks you receive, those go towards funding your next month’s budget.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

Emily: A lot of people play a game, especially people who are paid bi-monthly or bi-weekly, where the paycheck they receive is immediately going to pay for expenses — so it’s like first paycheck of the month pays for these immediate expenses, second paycheck of the month pays for the bills I’ve time to be in the second part of the month. Instead, to give yourself a little bit more margin, a little bit more space and calm, take all the income you make in a given month, and say that’s funding my next month’s budget.

Emily: That’s exactly what you’re doing with your side hustle income, so you’re not turning around and spending the money you make the next week, you’re saving it for the next month. I think that’s really smart, especially for what you just said. When you put off spending the money until the new budgeting period, you can have some more time for reflection and planning and making sure that you’re using the money in the way that you think is best and not something more impulsively. I actually think that it’s somewhat easy for graduate students, if they’re paid monthly, to do this. Are you paid on a monthly schedule?

30:21 Allie: We’re paid biweekly.

30:23 Emily: If you haven’t already done this, my suggestion would be to age that second paycheck or the first one, I guess to be for that next month. It’s a very challenging thing to do, especially for someone who has really, really tight cashflow because essentially you’re saving up half your month’s salary to be delayed until using it the next month. It’s a very, very challenging thing to do, but a really excellent one and again, I really admire the “You Need a Budget” framework for calling that out as ageing your money and they have a specific tool within the software that helps the user do that. So thanks for those two pieces of advice.

31:06 Emily: Allie, thank you so much for breaking down your budget with us today and giving us this wonderful insight and wonderful advice and best of luck to you with your finances and the upcoming year.

31:16 Allie: Yeah, absolutely.

Outtro

31:19 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to PFforPhDs.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways do so without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening, by Poddington Bear from the free music archive and it’s shared under CC by NC.

This Graduate Student Switched Universities and Moved Long-Distance to Stick with Her Excellent Advisor

August 19, 2019 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Katie Wedemeyer-Strombel, a recent PhD in environmental science and grad student advocate. Katie’s advocacy for her peers grew out of the challenges she faced during graduate school, particularly with respect to her first advisor. Katie details her decision to change labs and ultimately universities a couple years into her PhD and how she handled the financial and logistical aspects of moving from one side of Texas to the other. Emily and Katie discuss their advice for PhD trainees on how to choose a good mentor and preparing for the unexpected.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Katie: I never could imagine that it would have happened to me. I applied to one program to work with a certain professor that I was really excited– it was my dream program to get into, my dream project I was going to get to be on– and I didn’t even think to ask around about what’s it like to work with this person.

Introduction

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the personal finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four episode one and today my guest is Dr. Katie Wedemeyer-Strombel, a PhD in environmental science and graduate student advocate. Katie’s advocacy for her peers grew out of the challenges she faced during graduate school. We discuss her decision to change labs and ultimately universities a couple of years into her PhD and in particular how she handled the financial and logistical aspects of moving from one side of Texas to the other. Katie gives excellent advice for every PhD trainee on how to choose a good mentor and preparing for the unexpected. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Katie Wedemeyer-Strombel.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:13 Emily: I am delighted to be joined today by Dr. Katie Wedemeyer-Strombel and she is going to be telling us about a time of upheaval during her PhD in a variety of different ways. So Katie, will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

01:28 Katie: Yeah, and thanks so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here chatting today. I just recently finished my PhD in environmental science at the University of Texas El Paso where I integrated social and natural science to help improve conservation, specifically of sea turtles is what I was looking at. I grew up in southern California in a quiet little beach town and I love to be outside in the mountains and the ocean, playing with my dog, hanging out with my husband. I lived in California for most of my life, did my bachelor’s degree at the University of California, San Diego, then worked at a small zoo and aquarium as the lead educator where I got to talk about science to kids of all different ages, which inspired the pursuit of my PhD where I started at Texas A&M. After my second year, I decided the environment I was in was not a good environment, a good fit for me. And so I left that lab, found a new one and finished my PhD with a new advisor and ended up moving to a new university across the state of Texas. So yeah, it was a long journey. It took me seven years total to finish my PhD. I am thrilled to be done with it recently. It’s still sinking in and I think that’s it.

02:46 Emily: Well you’ve moved again recently, right?

02:48 Katie: Yes, yes. So we just recently moved a couple of weeks ago to the Denver, Colorado area to enjoy a new place and a culture of being outside and exploring. We’re really excited to be in a place where we feel like we’re surrounded by like-minded people.

What Motivated You to Switch Labs?

03:08 Emily: Excellent. So glad to hear that. So let’s go back to just before again this time about people. When you were switching labs and ultimately switching universities. What motivated you to do that switch?

03:23 Katie: So for me, it was even starting early on my first year of grad school. I felt like I really knew what I was getting into. I had taken three years off between undergrad and grad school and I had worked with researchers at a federal research lab. I’d worked with grad students before in that capacity as well. So I felt really confident that I knew what I was getting into. And then I went to grad school and the department culture was not the healthiest. And then within my lab, it was a struggle kind of from the beginning. There were a lot of expectations of working really long hours and kind of going with the philosophy that graduate school is supposed to be miserable and a time that you’re suffering and you’re not allowed to be anything but a grad student or have any hobbies or anything outside of graduate school. If you showed interest in anything else or dedicated time to anything else, including family, then you would fail is essentially what I was told. So I just realized kind of midway through my second year that what I wanted and what I needed for my education and to be successful and in my life to be happy, I was not getting with the professors that I was working with.

04:34 Katie: So, thankfully to the support of other faculty members and to my cohort, I recognized that this was not a good situation for me– that thinking every day, oh man, I don’t think I can do four more years of this. I don’t know that I can make it through that, feeling that way every day, and just realizing that what I was feeling was not how graduate school had to be. It is how it is, unfortunately, for a lot of people, but it’s not how it has to be. It can be a much more positive and a better experience. And so I was able to leave my lab, in part hugely to receiving a National Science Foundation Graduate Research Fellowship, which really helps give me freedom because it was a lot easier to approach new professors having that credential. I was able to find my new advisor who had a really positive way of mentoring her students. Still challenging, still high expectations but in a very positive manner, which for me was the kind of environment that I really needed to thrive. So she initially was still at Texas A&M when I moved into her lab at the beginning of my third year, but she was looking at and then eventually took a job about 12 hours across Texas at the University of Texas El Paso. So after third year my husband and I moved across Texas and started up and spent another four years in El Paso where we finished school.

Warning Signs for Unhealthy Labs

06:09 Emily: Yeah. Thanks for that kind of overview and we’ll be getting into quite a bit more into various components of that story. For someone else who is entering graduate school or entering a new research situation, maybe it’s postdoc, maybe it’s something else. What are the warning signs that they should be looking for for labs and groups to avoid if they have maybe a similar outlook on life as you do that graduate school, that research, should not be consuming 100% of your life?

06:40 Katie: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think the biggest thing is ask students, ask postdocs working in the labs you’re interested in joining, current students and former students or postdocs and you know, get them on the phone or if you’re there in person, take them out to coffee. Ask them, if you could do it again, would you work with who you’re working with? And take that answer seriously. On the phone or in person, people will be much more candid than say in an email because there’s no track record of it. And in my experience, when I was switching labs, I did a lot of investigating on that front. Talk to a lot of students and collaborators that worked with the people I was looking to work with and, in my experience, students and postdocs were very open and willing to chat with me on the phone or in person.

07:31 Katie: So that’s a big thing, but I think, looking into what is the culture like in that lab or in that department, in that town. Do they emphasize binge drinking as a way to blow off steam and the one way to deal with burnout– which doesn’t actually deal with burnout, it just adds to it. Do they encourage you to take time off to be with your family? Do they seem to have expectations that all you’re going to be doing is your work or do they seem to promote, “Hey, you like that band, why don’t you go to that concert?” Or “Hey, your family has an opportunity to all be together. Why don’t you go do that?” So really asking questions about how do you feel about taking time to see family? How do you feel about my work schedule? If I’m a better worker from 5:00 PM till midnight, is it okay if those are the hours I’m in the lab rather than 7:00 AM till 4:00 PM or whatever works best for you. So getting a feel for what you need and what’s going to work for you and asking those questions to who you’re working with, to people in the department that you’re thinking of joining and especially to the students who are already experiencing that. I think that that’s something that I didn’t do initially that I wish I would’ve done to get a better idea of what I was getting into.

08:55 Emily: I think there are some, I’ll say graduate students especially, who have a beggars can’t be choosers kind of attitude towards their selection of university or program or advisor. And that really may be the case if you have only gotten into one place or only one person will accept you into his or her lab. But the thing is that, as you experienced, if the culture and the work style and whatever it is about the group does not mesh well with what you want, you’re not going to end up being successful anyway. Like it doesn’t matter if they were the only one, if it’s going to put you through way too much strain or you’re going to have to leave their program, whatever it is. I mean it’s hard to say no to like your only opportunity or an opportunity that you would really like to think that it might work. But it’s just about more being honest with yourself that it’s not going to work and the PhD is a long time. It’s not the kind of time period that you can suck it up and power through for five plus years. And hey, it may take even longer if you’re struggling, you know? So it seems to be very, very wise to be very selective on the front end, even if it means turning down what might otherwise seem to be a really good opportunity.

Advice to the “Exceptions”

10:06 Emily: So when I was in graduate school, my husband and I were both very fortunate to have supportive advisors who were the kind of advisors that you’re talking about who didn’t have crazy work expectations, were supportive of family and so forth. But my husband considered joining a lab that had a little bit of a reputation, known among the students for being a more challenging lab to be in and with a more challenging advisor to work with. And I remember he heavily considered joining that lab but ultimately did not, all to the good. And I remember at a later point in graduate school, one of my friends who was a first-year or something, was rotating through labs and considered working with, again, another advisor who had a reputation as being a very difficult person to work with. And having had the experience my husband had, he was counseling this person to, as you were saying, take very seriously what other students, former lab members especially have said about this person to him. And ultimately he decided to join that lab. And he did graduate. But it’s just, I don’t know. What would you say to a person who thinks, “I’m going to be the exception? I’m not going to have that experience in that lab that 80% of people are having.”

11:24 Katie: Yeah, that’s a really good question. People leave labs for a lot of different reasons and sometimes people can be successful in an environment that was very unsuccessful and unhealthy for other students. And so that does happen. It’s not necessarily always like a nuclear situation when people leave labs. But because I’ve shared my story pretty transparently, I’ve heard a lot of horror stories. A lot of people have privileged me with sharing their experiences with me as well. And it’s a risk, I think, to join a lab that you know has a bad reputation. That’s a really good question. Thinking about what to say to a student that thinks that it’s not going to happen to them. I never could imagine that it would have happened to me. I applied to one program to work with a certain professor that I was really excited– it was my dream program to get into, my dream project I was going to get to be on– and I didn’t even think to ask around about what’s it like to work with this person, what it had been before. I probably would have ignored that anyway because I didn’t know any better. I didn’t know much about graduate school really at the time when I was getting into it. You know, it’s a risk, but to a student that thinks that they can go into a lab that doesn’t have a great reputation and thinks they can be successful: If they really want to try and they don’t have other options, they can try and they’re not stuck.

12:51 Katie: That’s a big thing I like to encourage graduate students to recognize is that you are not stuck. Just because you signed up for one program does not mean that that means you are locked into it for five, six, seven years, however long it takes. With the caveat of if you’re an international student, changing is a lot harder because you have visa issues, you have to deal with, you need the sponsorship of a lab. So there are a lot of extra obstacles that international students, underrepresented minorities face that, for example, I didn’t face when I was going through it. But there are options. And so, if the student feels really confident in joining a lab that other people have maybe warned them about, it’s their education and their life and if they decide that they want to take that risk, that just that they know, if for some reason it doesn’t work out that they’re not stuck in that environment, they’re not trapped. They don’t have to prove to anyone that they can withstand whatever treatment they’re getting, that if they’re unhappy or it’s an unhealthy environment that it is okay to say, “I have to leave this environment and find a different one.” Whether that different one remains in grad school or is a total different industry or career change. I think that would be what I would say.

The Advantage of Lab Rotations

14:17 Emily: I think I would add to that: if you know you’re taking a gamble with a certain lab to just be even more intentional about developing relationships with faculty members outside of that one. And it really depends on your program, how much that’s encouraged or not, but you should just take even more of that on for yourself to sort of look around and say, “okay, what are other people I can go to here either to help me stay in the current lab and give me advice, or what have you, support, collaboration, or a potential new advisor to switch to if this one doesn’t work out.” This is one reason why I really liked the system of doing rotations that some fields and some programs had. I personally didn’t do rotations in my lab. Sounds like you didn’t either. But I just think it’s a great idea to try on a lab for a semester or what have you and be able to make a better evaluation at the end of that. So, if you have the opportunity to go to programs that offer rotations, I think it’s a real advantage.

15:14 Katie: Yeah, absolutely. And I know I have a couple of friends who ended up switching labs into a lab of someone else that they had done a rotation with. And so they knew, “well, my interests overlap with this person. I liked that environment. It was a better fit for me.” And so I actually know a couple of students who eventually changed into a rotation lab. And just one more thing that I wanted to add on on this topic is that we keep mentioning labs that have a reputation. And so much of the onus is on the student to navigate this, but what students really need is faculty, especially tenured faculty and administrators in these departments that know that their department and/or faculty in their department have these reputations. People know about it. It’s not surprising when a student leaves the lab, people know their reputation. And yet, those professors still get funding for TA-ships or RA-ships to have students in their lab when there’s a known cycle of either inappropriate behavior of a variety of types or just of being a really negative environment that can emotionally hurt a lot of students. And so it’s a systemic issue and a lot of students are talking out more and more about it. And on Twitter, a lot of faculty are talking out more and more about it and it’s definitely becoming something that in my experience, even like some graduate deans are paying more attention to.

16:44 Katie: But really, the students need the help of established folks in the fields and we need them to help either watch out for students that join those labs or to talk to their colleagues and say, “Hey, your behavior is inappropriate. It’s not okay to treat students like that.” Because so much of the onus is on students. So much of having to navigate changing labs is on the students with zero support from the institution or other faculty unless they’ve already had the opportunity to carve out relationships with other faculty who will advocate for them. So, I talk about this a lot and so much of the advice which is important is to give to students to look out for red flags and what to do in that situation. But I always like to add, we need the help of folks that are more established that already know of these reputations to say, “hey, maybe don’t work with that person or if you get stuck or something seems off, come talk to me.” Just knowing that students have the support and knowing that faculty are working to help fix this problem is going to be a huge step forward I think for academia in general.

Helpful Policies

17:56 Emily: Yeah. Just to add on that, I think that either having policies in place or enforcing policies that are already in place regarding, for instance, the time devoted to work usually is officially limited. For a TA or an RA position often it’s 20 hours per week. How about that’s actually tracked and actually changes are made if students aren’t able to get their work done or whatever it is within that period of time. Also, about vacation policies. I remember during graduate school, midway through when I was in grad school, there was an official vacation policy implemented for Duke overall. And it basically said, I think, that students can have two weeks or more if their advisor wants to give them more. Often international students need more than two weeks at once. So it’s a two weeks or more policy. So it was kind of a good thing because I think often when policies are proposed, people are nervous that the policy could detrimentally affect them. Like maybe I take more than two weeks of vacation per year and my advisor is okay with it, but two weeks would limit me. So that was kind of a good phrasing. Like it had to be at least two weeks. And so that’s at least a policy that could be pointed to. Someone needs to take time off, and if the advisor’s not respecting that, then maybe again someone a level up can start intervening in that situation.

Commercial

19:11 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs and other early career PhDs for universities, institutes, conferences, associations, etc. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you are interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. That’s p f f o r p h d s.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

Challenges with Changing Institutions

19:59 Emily: Thank you so much for that discussion. But moving on to the happier end to that story. You got into the new lab, but you knew from the beginning that there was a move upcoming. That your new advisor was looking around and ultimately did move. So, what were the challenges associated with that of moving and changing institutions partway through your PhD?

20:22 Katie: Yeah, so there were a few different aspects of that. First was my, at the time fiancé and my now husband, he moved out. He was a professional chef for many years in southern California and he walked away from that in California and moved to Texas since we knew I was going to be there for a while and we wanted to be together. So he moved out to Texas two months before I left my first lab. And so he had just gotten there and we stayed there for another year. And so, I had a really strong support system with my cohort. My original cohort mates were just phenomenal and still some of my best friends. And my husband moved out, got a good job and became really close friends with a lot of my cohort mates, some friends on his own as well. And so we lived there for a year and a half and then we had to move and move away from the support system that had seen us through a tough time, that had celebrated our marriage with us. And that was a really tough thing to have to move away from that support system. That was tough both personally, but also we lost support for if we needed help with anything or a place to crash or if we needed just, you know, what you lean on your community for. We had to walk away from all of that.

Financial Considerations

21:45 Katie: And so that was tough and we had just paid for my husband to move from California and then we had just had our wedding and we moved like two months after our wedding. The move itself cost us probably like total $3,500 that we didn’t have lying around. It wasn’t something we had planned for or had expected. We were really fortunate that my parents were able to lend us some money so that we could kind of basically take an interest-free loan from my parents. Not everyone has that option. So we were really, really fortunate to have that to lean on or else we wouldn’t have been able to pay for the moving truck, for instance, to move our stuff across Texas. Because it’s like a 12-hour drive basically from east Texas out to West Texas. And having to put down a new deposit on an apartment, having to start building a life there again and moving everything. And then starting over with no support system was really tough. Again, just didn’t have a place to crash if we needed, didn’t have friends to lean on that were local. And so that added, increased pressure on us in a lot of different ways, both like academically and personally. And so those were the biggest things, having to find all new doctors, having to pay copays to go and do like the initial appointment with the doctors and then just kind of going through all of that and moving. The cost of living was a little bit more expensive where we moved to in El Paso just because it is a city. Not a lot but a little bit more. So that was something that we weren’t totally prepared for either. So those were the big things I think.

Logistical Considerations

23:49 Emily: With the actual moving itself: so, the lab that I was in in graduate school, the reason that I graduated at the time that I did was because my advisor decided to change institutions. It was kind of like he graduated like six or seven people and moved some, some stayed at Duke. So I got to see the front end of the packing up of the lab and I assisted with that. But I was basically out of there at the same time that the move was actually happening. So I’m just curious how much sort of downtime there was for the lab as a whole and also for you to actually do the move physically of the lab and also of yourselves and how much of an interruption that was to your research? And whether that was like vacation time that you had to take or whether it was like, oh no, okay. Like this is something that my work is requiring me to do. So it’s like sort of papered over.

24:43 Katie: It was a pretty stressful time for us. So we got married on May 2nd, 2015. We had a destination wedding in Mexico, which was wonderful. So we took that time and then we took about a week after that to stay for our honeymoon. And then about two weeks later, I went down to my field site for the first time and I was there for about two weeks. And my field sites are really remote so I have very little communication abilities when I’m there. And then I got back home and we had to move out of our apartment I think by the end of May. So we packed everything up, put it in a pod, had that stored for a few months. My husband essentially moved in, we moved in with two of our good friends who had a house and an extra room and they let us stay there for June and July because I had a conference I was going to I think.

25:44 Katie: And I also had a two-week short course that I was going to. So I was doing some traveling as well. And so essentially we moved into a room in our friend’s house with just like a bag and our car’s worth of stuff and a bed and then shipped the rest of our stuff. So we didn’t have most of our stuff for a couple of months. And that summer was really crazy. I traveled a lot and my husband was finishing up work and then we had to drive to El Paso to look for apartments. I think we drove the 12 hours, stayed there for two days, had to get like a hotel and everything for him to go to orientation because he was actually going to be starting as a full-time undergraduate. He left the chef industry and was going back to school.

26:29 Katie: So he had to go to orientation for two days at the new university. So we took that opportunity to drive out there and spend a couple of days looking for apartments. So I think in July we drove out for two days, found an apartment right before we left, had to pay a deposit and then drove all the way back and then spent another couple of weeks in east Texas before we officially left and did the drive back out. So it was a really hectic time and it took away a lot of our honeymooning period where we didn’t really get to just “be.” And part of that we recognize in hindsight, because hindsight’s 20/20 or whatever they say. But we really should have taken more time to just be together and just enjoy being newlyweds. But it was really stressful packing up and leaving and packing up the lab.

27:27 Katie: I didn’t have a lot of stuff in that lab because I hadn’t been in there that long and I hadn’t really started my research yet. So that was a pretty easy thing, at least on my end to do. But yeah, it was a really hectic and stressful time for us. And then coming and getting settled and then jumping right into both being full-time students was challenging for us as well. I’m glad I did it because the advisor that I finished with, Tarla Rai Peterson, she’s so wonderful and was such a supportive and positive role model and still is for me. That was why we decided to make that move. It was a long discussion that my husband and I had before we decided to make that move was: is this worth it? Do we want to upheave our lives and have to go through all of this? And I could tell that this was a really good fit for me and it ended up being a phenomenal fit for me. So, I’m glad that we did it. I wish we would’ve done it a little differently and it would have been great to have planned a little bit more for an unexpected, anything really to come up, during grad school.

Advice for Making a Long-Distance Move

28:44 Emily: Yeah. I want to probe on that point just a little bit more as we finish. So speaking to another graduate student or early career PhD who’s maybe considering a big move like this. I don’t know if it’s optional or not, like this for you, you decided it was worth it. I guess technically it was optional, but you could see the advantages of sticking with that advisor. But like in, in my case, when my lab moved, many of the students were making a decision, do I move with my current advisor or do I try to find another advisor at my current institution? So both kind of for that situation, but also just sort of anyone more in general who’s facing a long-distance move. With this hindsight that you have now, what is your best advice for that person?

29:27 Katie: Make the move the most convenient it can be for you. We kind of did that in a few different ways. Like we paid the extra to have the pod that would store everything so we didn’t have to rent the cheap truck and load a storage unit and then unload it and drive it ourselves. Make sure that it’s going to benefit you to do that. It’s a lot of work to do a long-distance move. It’s hard to upheave your life and move to a new place. So definitely weigh the pros and cons. For me, the pros were hugely outweighing the cons. I would say be proactive of finding community wherever you’re moving to when it’s a new place. That can be really tough to do. It was hard for us.

30:12 Katie: We made a couple of good friends in our new place, but we weren’t there for very long and we both traveled a lot. And so we didn’t really find as full of a community as we had had previously. So think about where are you moving to? Is it a place that is going to make you happy? Just the location in general. That is a huge consideration. Think about community and how you’re going to build community when you get there and look into connections from other friends you may have from your network that’ll be there. And know that it’s going to cost some money. It’s expensive to move anywhere but especially long distance. But I think making that time as least stressful on you as you can by taking time to spend with your loved ones who are in the area. Whether it’s a partner, spend time with them just alone to really try to keep up the normal parts of your life and don’t let your move totally consume you, in the same way that I always say don’t let your research totally consume you.

31:14 Katie: It’s honestly because grad school can be so unpredictable and you don’t really know what’s going to happen if you’re going to have to move again or if you’re going to have to change labs or what that might mean for you. I think to always think that just because you sign up for a program for however many years doesn’t mean that that’s where you’re going to stay or end up. So just kind of always keeping in mind that you have options, that there can be change and that that change might require some resources that you maybe don’t have or hadn’t planned for. So planning for those resources, like trying to save money or people you can lean on that can maybe help you if you’re in a tight spot. Really think about those things. I know we already have a lot to think about, especially as new grad students, but I think just really planning for the unexpected because you never really know what’s going to happen or where you’re going to end up. And so just acknowledging from the beginning that something might happen and you might have to make a change is okay and just trying to have some support you’ve built for yourself in place to help you as you move through that.

Budgeting for the Unexpected

32:20 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. And specifically on the financial resource, to put a little bit more of a fine, fine point on it. I mean having an emergency fund. Like okay, yeah, moving is not necessarily an emergency, but the thing is when you’re low income, like a graduate student, a lot of things qualify for emergencies that don’t sound like it. But it’s money for a necessary expense and it is unexpected to a degree. So just when you set up your budgets of your life, the first time in graduate school and your postdoc, just have a line item in your budget. It’s going be a small savings rate towards the unexpected as you said. Because the thing is, I mean, I’m always saying like money gives you options. So you were fortunate that you were able to lean on your parents to give you a loan.

33:04 Emily: That money gave you the option of moving. I mean, what if you didn’t have money yourself or didn’t have access to a loan like that? I mean, what really could you have done? Maybe you would’ve passed up this really fantastic opportunity to stay with this advisor. Maybe you wouldn’t have even finished graduate school. So yeah, just having money or having access to money is necessary at many points to sort of get to your career goals and have the life that you need to have. So yeah, if possible at all, build it into your plan that something unexpected is going to happen and you need to give yourself the option to say, to say yes to certain opportunities.

Advocacy for Graduate Students

Emily: So thank you so much, Katie, for sharing this story and being on the podcast today. How can people find you? And I understand you’ve been doing some speaking recently as well. Tell us about that.

33:52 Katie: Yeah. So, you can find me mostly on Twitter. My handle’s @krwedemeyer which is my last name, which I’m sure will be posted somewhere. You can find me on Twitter. That’s where I share a lot of my story and interact with a lot of wonderful early career academics and also established folks who share their stories as well. I was recently an invited keynote speaker at Ohio university’s graduate and professional student appreciation week celebration. And that was a really awesome opportunity to get to share my story and some advice to a room full of graduate students. And it was really cool to see them taking some of the things that I shared, like talk to each other about your struggles and your vulnerabilities, and hearing them actually go, “Oh yeah, I feel that way too. I didn’t know we could say that,” was just a really neat environment to be in. And I also got to speak with the dean of my graduate school and the Graduate Council. So a group of professors at UTEP who are in charge of graduate education and kind of the graduate school environment at UTEP.

35:03 Katie: And I got to speak with them about what we need as students and was able to work with them and they’ve now put on the docket for the fall to create an Ombud position. So, a confidential impartial person who graduate students can go to if they’re struggling with a lab or a professor they’re working with. And so they’re going to actually work to kind of create that position and fulfill that position so that students have more resources. Um, so I’ve been really thankful to be able to speak to both students and also to graduate deans and professors who are in charge of graduate schools. I’ve written a few articles for The Chronicle of Higher Education as well on these same topics, advocating for a healthier and kinder, but yet still intellectually challenging graduate school environment.

35:57 Emily: That’s excellent. And do you have a website for people to check out?

36:00 Katie: I do. It’s katiewedemeyer.wordpress.com.

36:04 Emily: Excellent. Well, thank you again for joining me today.

36:07 Katie: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Outtro

36:09 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to pfforphds.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to do so without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC.

This PhD Lecturer Found Her Perfect Side Hustle and Teaches Others to Do the Same

August 12, 2019 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Toyin Alli, a lecturer at the University of Georgia and founder of The Academic Society. Through her own blogging journey during grad school, Toyin found her passion for helping other graduate students excel in their programs. Two areas of particular need she notices were in productivity/accountability and side hustling. Toyin now teaches graduate students how to find their own perfect side hustles and gives several examples of side hustles that are well-suited for PhDs.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Teaser

00:00 Toyin: And how you don’t need to be an expert. You only need to be an expert about where you are. One of my favorite quotes from someone was what’s duh to you is mind blowing to your audience.

Introduction

00:15 Emily: Welcome to the personal finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Emily Roberts. This is season three, episode twelve and today my guest is Dr. Toyin Alli, a lecturer at the University of Georgia and founder of The Academic Society. Through The Academic Society, Toyin creates for other graduate students, the community and accountability structure that helped her succeed during her PhD in particular around productivity and side hustling. Toyin explains what kinds of side hustles are best suited for grad students and gives examples of highly accessible side hustles that early career PhDs can excel at. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Toyin Alli.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:02 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Dr. Toyin Alli and she is a side hustler, in fact, a side hustler who has now launched her own business, part of which is about helping other grad students, early career PhDs with their side hustles. Toyin, thank you so much for joining me today and will you please introduce yourself.

01:22 Toyin: Thank you so much for having me. I am Toyin Alli. I am from Mississippi and I’ve always loved math. I went to grad school to get my PhD in math. I went to the University of Alabama and I actually had an amazing experience at the University of Alabama in the math department. It was a very nurturing and supportive community. While I was in grad school, I started blogging towards the end and then over summer after I graduated, I put in a lot of effort into my blog and then I started my career. I’m a lecturer at the University of Georgia in the math department and I started The Academic Society to help grad students with all the things that I excelled at in grad school, as well as the things that I learned in grad school because I realized people weren’t really talking to grad students very much. I’m so happy to be here to talk to you all about what The Academic Society is about and my journey to get here.

The Grad School Exerience

02:26 Emily: When we talked before this call, you said something to me along the lines of “I kicked butt during graduate school” and that was such a completely different thing to say, righ?. That’s not the narrative that I usually hear, the self-conception that I hear from PhDs who are out of graduate school. It’s not the one that I have, certainly. So I just thought that was so refreshing to hear from you. And I assume that you bring that attitude of “I am competent and are too” to what you do with this work with graduate students. Is that accurate?

03:06 Toyin: Definitely. And I will say grad school was hard. I mean I got my PhD in math. It was not easy at all, but the experience was actually enjoyable. Not that I would want to do it again, but I actually had some great takeaways from grad school. I made some great friends and I realized that my department was very supportive. I think part of it was that I came in with a bunch of women, which is pretty rare in the math department and we all had the same fellowship. It was for underrepresented groups in your field. There were at least maybe a seven women who started with me in my grad program and we worked together. Just the whole community of my department was very nurturing and supportive, even if the program was very difficult. I will say, early on I realized that grad school was different from undergrad and my time was not structured anymore. I knew I needed to have structure, it’s a part of my personality, so I imposed my own structure on my grad school experience. I made a schedule every single semester, even if it was different and somehow setting up my organization helped me to be more productive in grad school and get stuff done. My advisor really advised me well and just a great experience. I just want every grad student to feel that way, even though I know they don’t, to just to have some sense of joy in grad school, which is pretty rare.

04:45 Emily: That definitely makes sense to me. We’re skipping ahead a little bit to talking more about your business, but I can see how you can help other graduate students learn those skills that you developed during grad school and that you found really helpful and around having a community because maybe they don’t have that built in community of like this great cohort that they’re coming in with. But hey, the internet, we can find that kind of thing online now.

Blogging as a Side Hustle

05:08 Emily: Okay, let’s not skip ahead too far. Let’s go back to your days in graduate school when you were blogging and I know you blogged about different subjects at different times. You were sort of casting around. Something that you told me before that I really identified with was that you had, I believe leading up to graduate school, lost all of your hobbies. You were so singularly focused on academics. I had that experience too. My hobby was sleeping. I told people that. I mean, I needed sleep, that was true. So tell me about these things that you were trying out as you were trying to find some things to do with your time.

05:40 Toyin: I was doing an interview or something and someone asked me, “What are your hobbies and what do you like to do?” And this was when I was well into graduate school and I said, “I don’t know. I was just a grad student. That’s what I do.” And I remember thinking that when I was younger, I had all of these things that loved to do. I was so into fashion. I loved beauty stuff. I loved hair, I loved different fandoms. I was super into movies and TV stuff. I don’t know, I just felt like I had more interests before I started grad school. And I was like, “Well, why should grad school change who I am that much? I need to have something outside of grad school.”

06:23 Toyin: I discovered blogging on Pinterest and I thought it sounded cool. I should try and start a blog. I didn’t really know what to talk about, so I just talked about my experiences in grad school and I kind of brought in the fashion element, writing about what I would wear to teach my classes, what I would meal prep for the week for school, how I organize my desk in my office and things like that. I really found a passion surrounding organization, productivity, as well as style and fashion and stuff like that.

06:56 Emily: Was that one single blog that you then talked about these different things? Or did you have different iterations of these side hustles/blogs?

07:07 Toyin: That was one blog. It was called Your Unfading Beauty. Me and my friends always joked because when you read it, it looks like “you run fading beauty” and it was just supposed to be about me. It was just one blog where I talked about all of these things. And then after grad school, I took a course on how to run a fashion blog. The thing that the person said was that the fashion or style niche is very oversaturated so you have to bring in something extra or be super niche and talk about one thing in fashion. I asked myself, “What am I uniquely kind of qualified to talk about and what am I interested in?” Here I was, a grad student, I had never really had a job before and it was the summer after I graduated starting my job as a lecturer. I didn’t know anything about personal finance but as a mathematician whose research area actually had to do with financial and economic policy. I found I was kind of qualified to talk about finance. My blog was fashion and finance for newly minted professionals. I talked about what I discovered regarding how to learn about personal finance because I never learned it before. I transitioned from talking about everything to talking about style and finance and how to manage a budget and things like that when you’re new to a career. Later on that got draining and then that’s when I started The Academic Society.

08:43 Emily: You really found like a crossover point that probably very few other people were looking at. Of course I love it and I would read that blog. Let’s step back a little bit because we are talking about side hustling during this episode. Did you monetize any of those blogs, before we get to the academic society, your current website?

09:01 Toyin: Just barely. I did a lot of affiliate marketing where you have a link to something that you like and that your audience may like and when your audience clicks your link to purchase, you may get a commission for that thing. I did Amazon Affiliates and I also did Shopstyle Collective, I think that’s what it’s called, for the fashion thing. I could like link to the different outfits that I wore and get a commission. I would not say that was very lucrative, but that’s where I started. That’s also what I did with my fashion and finance blog. Then I realized for affiliate marketing to be really, really profitable, you have to have a huge audience. You had to have a lot of people to click on these things. I really wanted to find something that I didn’t have to have a huge audience for. What I’ve learned since then is having your own products or service-based business is really helpful and you don’t have to have a huge audience to be profitable from things like that.

Other Side Hustle Experiences During Grad School

10:19 Emily: That’s setting us up really nicely for the next phase, but before we get there, did you have any other side hustles during graduate school, maybe unrelated to the blogging stuff?

10:30 Toyin: Actually, no. Math departments are very much a service department. Almost every major comes through our department, so we need a lot of people to teach. Grad students taught, so along with my graduate teaching assistantship, I would teach two classes and I had a stipend from that. Math grad students are actually pretty well paid so I didn’t think that I needed the extra income. I didn’t really have to do any side hustling and I didn’t other than my affiliates.

Conceptualizing The Academic Society

11:05 Emily: Okay, so you’ve had these couple different blogs, you’re talking about fashion and stuff, but then you had this realization affiliate marketing wasn’t the best fit for you. I know that’s a really tough field to get into, so you were looking more into service-based businesses, creating your own products. How did you hit upon The Academic Society, your current business?

11:25 Toyin: I discovered the world of online course making and I took a course on making a course. The instructor of that course, Mariah Coz, she’s really big in the course-making industry, said typically the people you teach are where you were six months to two years ago. At that point I was trying to monetize my fashion and finance blog and I was going to create a course related to that. Then, when she said that, I asked myself, “Where was I? I was actually in grad school applying for jobs.” I actually got offered three positions really early and I thought, “Oh, I did a great job applying for jobs. That’s where I was. Maybe I can help grad students apply for academic jobs.” My first course was how to build an amazing application packet to apply for jobs. I said to myself, “This is not fashion and finance, but I’m interested in this. Maybe I like to help grad students and I actually did amazing in grad school, maybe I should help grad student.” Thus, The Academic Society was born.

12:39 Emily: I love that tip of looking to your recent past because I think a lot of people get scared off of creating courses or even blogging and putting their knowledge and perspective out there because they think “I’m not an expert,” but as you just said, you don’t really have to be, it all depends on where your audience is. If you can find an audience that you’re just a few steps ahead of, that’s going to work out really well. Kind of like teaching a course. You don’t need to necessarily be miles and miles ahead of your students, you just have to be a few chapters ahead in some cases

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13:15 Emily: This summer I’m putting forth extra support for PhDs undergoing career transitions – into grad school, a post doc or a real job. If you’re moving onto the next stage in your career or thinking about it, please visit PFforPhDs.com/next to check out my articles, webinars and coaching program. Allow me to come alongside you during this transition to ensure that you set yourself up for financial success.

Monitizing A Blog Through Courses

13:44 Emily: That’s how you discovered who you wanted to serve through The Academic Society. Now your business is a little bit more developed. What are the different income streams and what are the different ways that you make money through The Academic Society?

14:01 Toyin: Before I do answer that, I do want to go back really quickly to what you said about like teaching and how you don’t need to be an expert. You only need to be an expert about where you are. One of my favorite quotes from someone is “What’s duh to you is mind blowing to your audience.” Even when you’re teaching, I’m always only two days ahead of my students.

14:22 Toyin: The Academic Society was pretty tough to monetize. Luckily I have a job where I don’t have to have the extra income because I realize trying to sell to grad students is really difficult because grad students don’t make a lot of money and I wouldn’t feel right charging a lot for my products and services to grad students because I know the struggle is real as a grad student. I had some pretty cheap things. I learned from the course model of business. I started with courses. I had my job application crash course, as it is known as now. I also had the grad school toolkit where I taught graduate students how to use Trello to organize their life and grad school experience. They were very cheap products, but I ended up making them free and using them to build my audience. I decided to not be instantly profitable in The Academic Society because I was so passionate about helping grad students. I decided the profitability will come later. I think it’s really important to help grad students. I just decided to make all my content free at first until I built my audience. Now, my email list is over 600 and is big enough. I know exactly what I can help my grad students with and I can create things that they really, really want.

15:55 Toyin: Last winter I was saying, “okay, what do my people really need?” I have a Facebook group for Grad students and upon entry I asked them what do they struggle most with grad school? All of them say time management, productivity and motivation. What can I offer them that will help them with this? That’s when I came up with my program, The Productivity Accelerator and it’s a two week program. I called it a productivity program, but it’s really more accountability. When students join that program, I pair them up with another grad student to be accountability partners because in my business, I actually do have an accountability partner who also owns a business. I’ve grown so much just from being in that partnership. I think this will be helpful for grad students and I remember when I was in grad school, I had all of those women that I could work with, they were my accountability partners. Other grad student need accountability; I can give them accountability partners and then we can work together. I decided virtual coworking sessions will be part of the program and we would do Pomodoro method, where we work for 25 minutes, take a break for five, work for 25 minutes, take a break for five. That’s The Productivity Accelerator. You join the program, you get partnered up, I do a couple of group coaching sessions, and we just work every day in the afternoon and at night. I also have grad students who facilitate the coworking session so it’s not just me, you really get to know the other grad students in the program. Even I was the most productive I’ve ever been in The Productivity Accelerator. I am currently running a free mini course to help grad students and academics start their own side hustle. When they finish the mini course, they have the option to join my program, Side Hustle Summer School, which is a little course on how to take your side hustle idea to market. Now I’m currently writing a book, #GRADBOSS: A Grad School Survival Guide, and I will have a book as part of monetizing The Academic Society as well.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

18:03 Emily: That is so fun and I love that you listen to your audience and were trying to really tap into what they were telling you that you needed. I love that idea of having the, the productivity, especially the accountability. Even within personal finance, accountability – people don’t want it, but it’s so effective, if you can get it in a good way. So, yeah, that sounds really fun.

Different Types of Side Hustles for Grad Students

18:28 Emily: Let’s talk more about Side Hustle Summer School and side hustling in general. Aside from blogging, you were not a side hustler during your grad degree, you didn’t have a need for it, but if someone either does have a need or just once extra income or something to do, what are some ideas for how they can side hustle during grad school?

18:49 Toyin: I definitely think a decision needs to be made if they want to be instantly profitable or have a slow build and become profitable later. What I did with my business was a slow burn. It took two years to become profitable. That was because I was passionate about what I was doing and I was okay with waiting, I had a job. But I would say if you want to be profitable immediately you should have a service-based business where you provide something for someone else or you do something for someone else and you only need one client to make money instantly. You don’t need a big audience and it’s probably someone you know that can be your first client. I actually wrote a blog post called “Nine Cheap and Easy Side Hustles for Grad Students and Academics”.

19:35 Toyin: It doesn’t have to cost money to start a side hustle. You don’t need a website. You just need to let people know what you’re doing. You probably just need like an email address and a PayPal account. Something that grad students and academics can do is tutoring. By being in grad school, you are an expert in your field, especially to undergraduates or high school students, so you can tutor them. Something that’s really interesting is being a virtual assistant. I know you have a virtual assistant and you can help someone else who owns a business by doing a little task for them or being a social media manager. If you’re great at social media and you know what kinds of posts perform on different social media platforms, you can help a business who doesn’t know or doesn’t have time to invest in learning all about that. Especially old brick and mortar businesses, they don’t really know how social media works, so you can help them.

20:33 Emily: I want to jump in and say my virtual assistant is actually a grad student. Hey Jewel! I went to my own email list when I was looking for someone to help me with my podcast editing and a lot of grad students responded and ended up working with Jewel and it’s been amazing for me and I think it’s been good for her too.

20:53 Toyin: That’s so awesome. I think it’s really awesome to work with someone who has a business because you can learn from them and figure out what you might want to do for a side hustle or business and become an entrepreneur yourself, just from that experience. There are multiple ways, especially living in a college town. If you’re in grad school, you’re probably in a college town, so your professors are maybe going on sabbatical or leaving for the summer, going on conferences. They may need someone to house sit or pet sit or nanny their children. There just so many creative things that you may not think about that you are uniquely qualified to do as a side hustle and providing a service for someone else.

21:37 Emily: Thanks so much for pointing out. The way to make money right away – this month, this week – is to go for something service-based and I think that is really accessible for a lot of grad students. The examples that you mentioned were great. It’s just important to realize that developing passive income streams, which is some of the kind of things that we’ve been talking about, like developing courses or something like that – the “make money while you sleep” billing that you sometimes see in online business – that can be a great route, but it’s not immediate. It takes a long time, as you were just saying in your own journey, to build that audience that you need before you can get to that point. So, that’s not “pay your rent” money, that’s “I want to have a long-term vision and I enjoy this thing and if it makes money later on, that’s amazing”, that’s that approach over there.

Advice for Starting Your Own Side Hustle

22:30 Emily: What advice do you have for a current grad student or an early career PhD who wants to develop a side hustle? What advice do you have for them for figuring out what is going to work best for them?

22:43 Toyin: I like to start with three things: coming up with an idea based on your why, like what you want to do; figuring out who you can help; and also knowing your financial goals. I think those are the top three things you need to be able to come up with a great idea that will work for you. In my mini course that people take before Side Hustle Summer School, I always ask them, what are the things that you are good at? And also, to go out to their friends and family and ask them what do they come to you for? It may surprise you. I actually did this exercise and asked my friends and family, “what do you think I’m good at, what have you come to me for it?” and I was blown away at their answers. They were very kind and they pointed out some things I actually never thought about.

23:32 Toyin: Figuring out what you’re good at, figuring out if that thing that you’re good at can help someone else, and then figuring out, okay, who would actually want this thing that I could offer and who could actually afford the thing that I could offer? And figuring out how to price it based on how much you actually need to make. It determines how elaborate and high level your product will be. You can make something that could be pretty cheap or you can build up the client experience to make it more expensive to fit your needs as well. But yeah, figuring out what you’re good at and how you can help someone I think is the best way.

24:14 Emily: I think, as we were kind of talking about earlier, grad school can take a toll on your mental health. This imposter syndrome, obviously is totally widespread. I just want to say, grad students, you are good at something. Definitely. Even if it’s primarily academically related, like you have found with your own business. You are good at something. You can offer things to someone else. If you go through these exercises that Toyin is talking about, if you take her mini course, etc., you will be able to discover something in this area that will be an effective side hustle for you. Toyin, please tell us where people can go if they want to jump into this mini course, maybe even prior to taking Side Hustle Summer School?

24:59 Toyin: I have a mini course that has a five lessons. You can do it in five days and it takes you from getting your idea to coming up with a way to monetize it. If you want to just go to my website, it’s theacademicsociety.com and you can go to theacademicsociety.com/side-hustle-cheatsheet, you will get a cheat sheet full of all of the logistics of starting a side hustle as well as the workbook for all of the lessons in the mini course and you’ll be invited to the Facebook group where the mini course is hosted. You can find all of this at theacademicsociety.com.

25:43 Emily: We will also add all of those links into the show notes as well as you know, I’ve already done several podcasts episodes on people who have side hustled during graduate school or after psi or after graduate school, so we’ll add links to those previous episodes as well so you can get even more ideas for what to do next. Toyin, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today and for lending your expertise in this area.

26:06 Toyin: Thank you so much for having me! I really enjoyed this.

Outtro

26:10 Emily: Listeners, I’m so glad you joined us for today’s episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for a PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, a survey, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. See you in the next episode! The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive, and it’s shared under cc by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Jewel Lipps.