transcript

How This Graduate Student Rejects the Academic Culture of Being Broke

January 27, 2020 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Hajer Nakua, a rising second-year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of Toronto. Hajer describes how the culture of being “broke” in academia becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for individual graduate students. Hajer and Emily discuss in detail Hajer’s top three strategies for breaking this cycle of brokeness in graduate school and how you can change your money mindset. Hajer identifies the culture of consumerism as the top culprit.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Hajer: You know, if people don’t talk about how they’re spending money and all they talk about is the fact that they’re broke, it’s really easy to be like, “Okay, yeah, sure.” But to be more open with money and not have it very taboo I think will really help spearhead discussions of what does it mean to be in graduate school and have money. Like, how are the best ways to spend my stipend?

Intro

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode four, and today my guest is Hajer Nakua, a rising second-year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of Toronto. Hajer describes how the culture of being broke in academia becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for individual graduate students. We discuss in detail her top three strategies for breaking this cycle of brokeness in graduate school, and how you can change your money mindset. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Hajer Nakua.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:04 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Hajer Nakua, and she is a recently started graduate student. We are recording this in August of 2019 so she’s going into her second year. And we’re going to be discussing today the “culture of broke” inside academia and how to combat that with your own personal finances. So, Hajer, thank you so much for joining me today. And will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

01:28 Hajer: Thank you very much, Emily, for having me. And sure. I just finished my undergrad in Psychology, Neuroscience & Behavior at McMaster University in Ontario. I finished in April 2018, and in September 2018, I started my graduate training at the University of Toronto. It’s technically in the Institute of Medical Science, but my field is specifically neuroscience. And even more specific, I use computational technology. So, things like neuroimaging, brain imaging, MRI, to better understand brain behavior relationships in a population of psychiatric children.

The Culture of “Broke” in Academia

02:07 Emily: Very, very interesting. So, you have been in academia–well, your PhD program, at any rate–for only about a year, but that’s been long enough to start to absorb the culture of being broke. So, would you please start to describe that for me?

02:22 Hajer: Sure. I’ve actually noticed this culture very, very persistently in undergrad, and it’s more of a student thing than when you’re a PhD–you’re still considered a student. And it’s just the idea that students, because they don’t have a very stable income, they’re supposed to be broke. And that is a very, very persistent limiting belief that many students have. And I find that particularly in PhD, Masters, or any graduate school program because of the high expense of the program, people just sort of settle into the idea of, “Oh, I’m broke, I’m supposed to be broke.” And it often limits them from taking the necessary measures to try to build wealth even during their PhD or graduate school training.

03:00 Emily: Well, you know you have found a very friendly audience in me with this message. I totally agree with you. To me, like if you’re looking at the numbers, right? Like if you’re actually looking people’s income and outflow and everything, to me, there’s usually a pretty big difference between someone who is paying out of pocket to be in school. They’re probably taking on student loan debt or maybe they’re supported by their families or even maybe they’re drawing on their own savings from the past, and someone who does have their education expenses paid for, plus there’s a stipend on top of that. That to me is like black and white, a very different situation. But you’re right that, because there’s often a continuum between those two things, people who are on the, “Well, you actually do have an income side of that,” can have some of the mindset still from when they were on the other side of the equation. Again, because as you said, the label of “student” is still there. And you said for me a couple of magic words, which were “limiting beliefs,” which I am very interested in. Can you expand on that a little bit?

Can You Expand on Limiting Beliefs?

04:03 Hajer: Sure. So, in general, a limiting belief is this very persistent idea someone has that often allows them to settle into something that prevents them from moving forward with whatever it is that they want in their life. And that’s a very vague and general explanation. But in this case, I find that when people say things such as, “Oh, I’m broke,” they sort of get over the idea that, “Maybe I should have a savings account, maybe I should start, you know, being more financially savvy.” They’re like, “Should I buy this $10 meal? Yeah. Whatever. I’m broke. What another $10?” So, it’s this constant idea that any sort of wealth, any money management is not applicable to their life.”

04:46 Emily: Yeah.

04:46 Hajer: I think that’s very persistent in particularly graduate school. And quickly commenting on one thing that you said. Although there is a stipend, and it’s fair that many people move for a PhD program, so that often goes towards living expenses. So, of course, the amount of money that someone gets, it’s not high, but it’s still, as you said, a little bit surprising to me sometimes that there’s such a strong sense of, “I have no money,” even though technically there is some sort of cash flow coming in.

05:16 Emily: Yeah. And this is another difficult point, right? Because for some people, the stipend is insufficient to live on in that city. It’s tragic that some graduate schools choose to pay their students that way–their workers or their fellowship recipients–that’s something that needs to change kind of about the higher education system as a whole. So, in some cases, it really is true. There’s not enough to live on. You have to be going into debt, whether it’s student loan debt or consumer debt or you’re being supported by someone else. And I think around 50%, or if I’m trying to remember the stats correctly, around 50% or less of doctoral students ultimately do take out some sort of student loans during their graduate degrees, right? Not just from undergrad. Yet, in other cases, as you were just saying, the stipend may be sufficient to live on maybe even sufficient to do a little bit more with.

06:09 Emily: But because of those limiting beliefs, that isn’t even considered, it’s just an assumption. You’re a student, you’re going to be broke, there’s nothing else you can do about it. And like you said, sort of acquiescing to that idea and not acting in a way that could change that situation just because you think that it can’t be changed. Yeah, this is a big part of my message, so I’m really glad that we can have this discussion today. So, what would you say that if someone does accept being broke as a limiting belief, even if it’s not factually numbers-wise necessarily the case–what’s the harm in that? What’s the effect in that?

The Harm of Brokeness as a Limiting Belief

06:48 Hajer: It prevents them from trying to seek opportunities to sort of build any sort of wealth or income. When I say wealth, I don’t mean, you know, those like $1 million wealth. I mean, just sort of being able to work towards your financial freedom, which is a huge goal, particularly in the West as a lot of prices have been getting a lot more expensive. So, it prevents starting that. People often say, “Oh, in my PhD I’m broke so I’m going to stay that way. And then maybe after I’ll sort of think about how I want to think about money or how I want to build my income.” I find that very problematic because PhD is a really pivotal time in your life. So, the vast majority of people start between 22 to 32, in that decade, a lot of students are. And that’s a really key time to sort of build for retirement, or whatever it is, any goals that you may have.

07:40 Hajer: So, starting from an early age, they think, “Oh, that’s it. That’s a problem for later.” Or, “No, I don’t have the money to try to really focus on building financial freedom slowly, slowly, slowly.” It can really be detrimental in their ability to A) save, and also learn how to be good with money when you don’t have a lot of money. Because we’re not saying that PhD students have a great salary, as we’ve spoken about before, but it’s still important to sort of think about ways to be financially savvy at a time where you may not have a lot of wealth. And then as you build on later in life, you’ll get better and better at it. So, I feel like there’s a lot of wasted opportunity during the PhD years once someone succumbs to that limiting belief.

Investing in Yourself: A Cautionary Tale to Grad Students

08:25 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. There are two points in there that I’d like to follow up with. The first is, so at least I have heard, you know, from some aspects of the culture, that your twenties are your time to invest in yourself. Don’t really worry so much about saving for retirement or whatever it might be. There’s time to do that later. Your twenties are your time to invest in yourself. And, if you’ve heard that message, you might think, “Well, yeah, I’m pursuing a PhD. Like that’s a great thing to be doing with my twenties in terms of investing in yourself.” And that’s true. But I do think that maybe the people who are propagating that, “Twenties are the time to invest in yourself” message are assuming that people have a much higher income. That during the course of your 20s, you’re going to be ramping up that income and you know, pursuing all these different opportunities.

09:12 Emily: Maybe you’re starting your own company or whatever it is. That’s a little bit of a different level of potential wealth, you might say, then what we’re talking about in more like the PhD land. Because it is a really difficult thing to start off, let’s say in your twenties, with a certain stipend. And then five, six, seven plus years later still have pretty much that same stipend that’s coming in. It’s very difficult to increase your income at all while you’re in graduate school unless you turn to outside sources of work. So, that’s something that doesn’t really jive for me about that message of like, “Invest in yourself in your 20s.” It’s like, yeah, you can do that, but please note that your income, if you do that through graduate school, is not actually going to be increasing during that time. Or at least not, you know, appreciably.

Investing in Retirement: Slow and Steady Pays Off

09:57 Emily: So, that was one thing that I wanted to point out. And the other one was just, as you were saying, I just wanted to underline the power of starting to invest. Whether that’s, you know, paying off debt or actually investing in stocks or something in your 20s is incredibly valuable because you have so much more time on your side before you reach the goal of, “Okay, I want to support myself in retirement,” or whatever your goal might be. It’s so, so valuable to put away even a very small amount of money early on. The earlier on you can do it, the better because of the magic and the power of compound interest. So, it’s something where like, as you were just saying, if you acquiesce to the idea that you’re going to be broke and you can’t, you know, invest for retirement or pay off your debt or whatever–if you succumb to that idea in your 20s, you might dismiss, “Oh, well, okay, I did have like $20 this month that I could have saved, or like $50. That’s not that much money, whatever. It’s fine.” Actually that is a lot of money once you compound it over multiple decades. So, it’s something where, as you were saying, succumbing to that limiting belief really does damage you in the long-term. If there was something you could have done about it, you know, in the present, which again, for some people it isn’t, but for others perhaps you could.

Investing in Yourself vs. Your Future ≠ Mutually Exclusive

11:16 Hajer: Yeah. And also I wanted to comment on the idea that, “Oh, in your 20s you’re supposed to enjoy yourself and invest in yourself.” And while I agree with that philosophical idea, I think that people often make it very mutually exclusive where there is being financially savvy and then there’s enjoying spending on yourself and investing in yourself and quote unquote self-care and all that kind of stuff. So, I think the message which is driven by consumerism teaches people that, “Oh, you don’t need to think about the future now. You don’t need to be financially savvy now. It’s just spend whatever you want to spend.” And if you have that limiting belief that you’re broke, it’s a very easy message to take in. And it also sort of fills that cognitive dissonance that anyone may have. However, again, I don’t think it’s mutually exclusive.

12:02 Hajer: I think that you can equally–if you’re able to support yourself and your stipend is sufficient–I do genuinely think that you can enjoy yourself and invest in yourself, whether it is with consumerism goods or other self-care habits, and also plan for the future and try to be more financially savvy. And it doesn’t need to be as complicated as investing, but like you said, it could just be having an emergency account that you know that every month a hundred dollars is going to be put in the savings account. I definitely think that in many cases, you can do both. And I think life is very enjoyable when you do both because you know that you’re enjoying the present, but you also know that you are planning for the future, and I think that there’s a lot of sort of warmth that comes with that on the inside.

12:45 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree with what you’re saying. This is what I found to be the case as well, that I never wanted to completely sacrifice my enjoyment of the present. A part of me enjoying the present was feeling more secure in my finances. And so it wasn’t like it has to be all one way or the other. And again, this is another limiting belief, right? Like, “You can only work on your financial future and then the present is going to be completely sacrificed.” Or, “You can only enjoy the present and then you cannot do anything for the future.” In fact, there usually is a balance between those two things. And why also when we choose to be extreme in one way, do we always choose the extreme of enjoying the present and not the extreme of sacrifice in the present, at least for the vast majority of people? So, yeah, I really enjoyed that part of our discussion. So, okay, let’s say we have a listener who says, “Okay, I’m hearing you. I’m hearing you. What can I do now on my grad student stipend or my postdoc salary?” Or whatever amount of money is coming in. You know, “How can I not be broke anymore? I’ve been telling myself that I have to be broke. Okay. Maybe I don’t have to, but what do I actually do to not be broke anymore?”

How to Exit the Cycle of Broke

13:51 Hajer: Okay. I love this question. I wanted to say more of a philosophical idea and then go towards practical tips. The first thing is to recognize that you’re always accountable for all the money that you use and you spend, because I think that people often–I hear this all the time, “I don’t know where the money goes. It just sort of leaves my bank account, and I just keep tapping. I have no idea what I’m buying.” So, I think when you’re at that level, you really need to step back and think, “Where is my money going?” If you’re a Tapper, if you’re just like, “I can tap my way through life,” you really need to sit back and think, “Well, what am I actually tapping on? How do I stop these habits?”

14:29 Hajer: So, I think that’s the first important step to acknowledge self-accountability in your spending and financial habits and your financial future. That’s number one. Number two, I think saving money can be a lot easier than people expect. And oftentimes when you go to YouTube or you read these blogs, they have these very complex budgets and you know, all these things are very meticulous and they understand that as a graduate student, a lot of our time is spent on project management, making sure that we’re sort of completing every stage of the project. So, you don’t want to add so much more to your plate that you’re being super meticulous. So some habits that I started off with is A) have an automatic transfer from a checking account to a savings account. So, I will check how much money would I need to save per month for whatever it is that I want. Maybe I’m saving up for a vacation, saving up for a car, whatever it is that you want to do. Calculate your monthly budget and then just transfer that so it’s on autopilot. You never have to think about it. And whatever’s left in your checking account, you can just spend. And that way it’s a much simpler methodology to get the end goal. Which is that, there’s a certain amount allotted for things that you want to do. You’re thinking about the future, but you have enough to enjoy.

You Don’t Have to Budget in Order to Save

15:43 Emily: I want to add to that for a moment because I think this is a really, really good and important point. Because there are some people who as you said, maybe it’s because of busy-ness, but maybe it’s not–some people don’t want to keep a budget. They don’t like to be feeling–even though they’re telling themselves what to do–they don’t like being told what to do with their money at any given time. So, the thing is though is that you don’t have to budget to save, but you can just go ahead as you were just saying and take the step of saving. And as long as you don’t end up overdrawing the amount of money you have left, then Hey, you’ve accomplished the step of saving and you’re trusting yourself to stay within the ultimate confines of the remainder of your money.

16:25 Emily: And you don’t have to silo all that money off into different categories if you don’t want to. If that’s helpful for you, great. But if you’re too busy, you don’t like it, just start saving and you know, adjust–you can live off the rest of it. So that tip, I mean, if that’s the only one anyone gets out of the podcast, that’s a hugely powerful one. I totally agree with you. Automate savings, do it first thing after you get paid. Don’t allow yourself to consider that money part of your general monthly spending, but rather put it first thing towards whatever goal it is that you’re working on, as you said. So, please continue. But I love that first point.

Tip 1: Automated Savings. Tip 2: Check Your Food Expenses

16:57 Hajer: I’m happy that you like it. What really helps me, especially during grad school–because I’m someone who is more on the meticulous end. I like know exactly where everything’s going in all aspects of my life. But I really found that this tip is the best one to start off with because I’m a big believer in gradual changes. So, nobody’s going to go from a reckless spender to a meticulous budgeter in a month because they have this very intense goal. And I think that it’s not practical to think that or to take those steps. So, I think sort of automated savings is the best way to go especially for graduate students. And then further on, as your money increases, you may want to be a little bit more meticulous. My second tip, and I’ve seen this in undergrad and graduate school, people spend an absurd amount of money on food, I’ve learned.

17:43 Hajer: And not grocery shopping. We’re not talking about whole foods, organic apples, we’re just talking about buying food every single day, buying a coffee and a drink with that. So, a lot of people that I know in graduate school spend $20 a day just on their daily food intake, in addition to any grocery shopping that they may do. And I really wanted to bring this up because when you really calculate how much money food takes out of your wallet, it almost would make you cry because it’s just one of those things that you don’t feel it because it’s $15 here, it doesn’t seem like a lot. The next day, $7 here, it doesn’t feel like a lot. So, that’s one thing. If you find that a lot of your money is being spent on to-go food, so food outside of your own home and outside of groceries, I really think the first step in addition to the savings account is tightening that up and trying to just do the grocery shopping and meal-prepping or whatever it is that’s how you want to eat. It’s up to you. So, we’re not talking about from a health perspective, although it helps. But from a money perspective, I really think that’s the first place people need to look at–their food spending habits.

Pay Attention to Repeated Spending Patterns

18:48 Emily: Yeah, of course. I have more to say on this as well because I love this tip as well. So, I actually found myself falling into this when I was in graduate school. So, something that would happen to me–and you can tell me if you relate to this–this is especially in the first couple of years when I was in grad school and I was still in classes and had like homework to do and stuff. So, you know, go to campus, you know, do your classes. I’ve packed my lunch. Okay. I packed my lunch every day, but there were plenty of days when I would sort of, without knowing in advance, I would actually stay late. So, I would stay over the dinner hour and be working on campus in the evenings because, you know, I had like a good study group going for like a couple of my classes.

19:23 Emily: We would meet and kind of talk about the homework and stuff, you know, in the evenings, a couple days a week. Maybe there’s something in the lab that I didn’t get to during the day. I need to get to it a little bit later. But I didn’t want to be hungry, of course. So anyway, I would go and buy convenience food on campus. This would happen, you know, once, twice a week, something like that. Not seemingly a hugely damaging habit. But when I kind of stepped back and evaluated that, I was like, “Okay, this is a pattern. It’s not totally unexpected that I stay into the evenings at least a couple days, you know, on campus.” So it’s not like, “Oh my gosh, this is only happening this one time. It’s a one-time exception.” No, it was an exception that was happening on a regular basis.

20:05 Emily: And so once I realized that that pattern had formed, I was like, “Okay, I need to do more than just pack my lunch. I have to also keep some food that I could eat for dinner at least as a heavy snack or something that’ll tide me over until I actually get home in the little bit later part of the evening.” So, it’s one thing, of course–people have heard the tip, right? To pack your lunch–but I would say just if you see patterns developing where you need to eat on campus and you see yourself turning to convenience foods, just try to acknowledge that that’s happening and take some steps so that it doesn’t catch you by surprise.

Keep a Snack Drawer, and Bring Your Own Tea (or Coffee)

20:38 Hajer: I actually had the exact same experience. I started to develop like a snack drawer. So, there’s a couple of healthy snacks I like, some that I make, some, you know, whatever it may be–maybe it’s like an apple or something for the week–and I keep that there. And that way, whenever I have to stay later–which I try not to do, I am someone who, you know, at 4:00 PM that’s my home time–but of course, like you said, there are times you just can’t control it. So, I know that there is something there and it’s something that I brought. Even if it’s a $3-4 bagel, that still adds up. My biggest thing was I used to really enjoy buying tea outside. I just loved in the morning coming with my tea and it was only $2 and 67 cents from Starbucks at the time.

21:24 Hajer: I memorized it and I always had it ready because I knew exactly how much it was. But over time you realize how much it would cost. And what I started to do is A) bring my own tea and buy a really cute mug. So, I felt good walking in with my tea mug. But sometimes if I didn’t have my mug, I would actually just ask for a cup and hot water and I would bring my tea bag, and I have them on my desk. And that saved a lot of money. But you just don’t feel that because $2.67 doesn’t seem like that much money. So, even something as small as tea, I felt that like, “Oh wow. By the end of the month, I have considerably more money than I did last month.” And it was just one very small change.

21:59 Emily: Yeah, because it’s a daily or an almost daily habit. Making a small change can make a huge difference.

Commercial

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Changing Your Money Mindset

23:12 Hajer: One thing that has really helped me is–so, there’s multiple aspects of consumerism that we all fall into, and I think it’s very pertinent in grad school just because, “Oh yeah, the whole broke culture.” But it’s a very funny dissonance where we love to talk about how broke we are, but we love to spend money at the same time. So, I find that’s very common. So, in general, in addition to food, other habits that you may have, I think it’s very important to check. So, many of us like to spend a lot of money on fast fashion. And we know that it’s not going to last very long. We just love the idea of going into a fast-fashion store, buying a $40 shirt. Seems like a good idea, but you know, in four months you’re not going to wear that shirt anymore.

23:54 Hajer: So, it’s things like that where you really want to try to look at alternatives where you may have to put in a greater sum in the beginning, but in the long run you’re really going to help your finances. And I think thinking in that way has really helped. So, instead of the idea of instant gratification, “I want a latte right now. I want this shirt right now. I want this meal right now.” Get outside that mindset. And instead think, “Okay, long-term, what do I want? Because when it comes to the food or the clothes or whatever, the idea is, “I want to have a meal that I enjoy.” That’s really the core of what you want. But that can come in many different ways. And many of it you can save a lot of money with.

24:34 Hajer: “I want to buy clothes that I enjoy.” Okay, well, what are better spending habits that you may do so that in the long-term, you know that you’re saving money? So, and just in general, letting go of the need of instant gratification, which to be honest, is very, very hard in our very, very multi-consumerism culture. Many businesses make billions of dollars because of the fact that it’s very hard to let go of instant gratification. But the way that I like to think about it is, the PhD is the biggest test of lack of instant gratification in your entire life. You are never going to get this level of delayed gratification where you work two years and you got one paper. You know, you work four or five years, you finally got your PhD. So, really changing your mindset and saying, you know, “I’m doing this for the long run. Like I know that the PhD is not going to be enjoyable all the time, but at the end I’m going to enjoy it.” Think that same way about money and your finances. And I think that one thing is just so powerful, and it can fuel a lot of change. So, although it’s not as much a practical tip, but I think that’s an important way to redirect or reconceptualize how you view your spending habits.

The Multiple Benefits of Being Future-Focused

25:47 Emily: Yes. Unsurprisingly, I love this point as well. This is actually something that I’ve spoken and written about on a few occasions, but I’ve never heard anybody else bring it up. So, I’m really glad that you did, which is the specific characteristics of a person who is in a PhD program or has completed a PhD program. Some of those characteristics can lend themselves very, very well to financial success. As you were just saying, thinking long-term about your career. “Okay, I’m going to dedicate multiple years to achieving this PhD.” As you were just saying, sometimes the experiments, the research itself, can take a really, really long time, especially at the beginning. You become really persistent. You are dedicated when you are in a PhD program or have accomplished a PhD, and you’re really future-focused.

26:33 Emily: And all those things serve really, really well if you’re able to translate them into the area of your personal finances as well. PhDs are also resourceful. They are creative. They’re all these really positive things. Even just getting admitted into a graduate program means that you have a lot of these characteristics and you will further develop them during the course of the PhD. And so yeah, if you can find a way to apply those in the financial realm as well, I mean you’re going to be a superstar, basically. Just by the characteristics that brought you to the stage of training that you’re already at. So, I really, really totally agree with this point. I think something that you said that people don’t necessarily acknowledge is if they take a step back from the treadmill of consumerism, they might think, “I have to live this way forever. I have to be frugal forever. I have to say no to buying X, Y, Z forever.”

You Don’t Have to Be Rich in Order to Be Frugal

27:27 Emily: But the thing is that if you can take that step back from consumerism for a period of maybe a few years and really get your finances solid underneath you, and really do things like investing in yourself and increasing your income and so forth, you can add–I mean consumerism is kind of a negative word–but you can add mindful spending back in after a period of, you know, stepping back from it, if you just again, have some wherewithal to your finances. So, for example, something that is a common criticism of frugality tips that are disseminated is that you have to already have money to be frugal, right? So, stuff like buying in bulk or like what you were just saying, actually, buying an investment piece of clothing that’s a little bit more money instead of multiple cheaper pieces of clothing that aren’t going to fall apart faster.

28:19 Emily: Well, you do need money upfront to do those things. So, a common criticism of frugality is you have to be rich to be frugal, right? It kind of doesn’t make sense. But the thing is that it doesn’t take that long of building up some savings or something to have enough money to start taking those frugal steps that do require an upfront investment, which of course not all of them do. And so, it might be that, “Okay, yeah, I’m just going to go on a spending fast for three months. At the end of the free three months, I will be able to take all these other frugal steps, which will then be able to fund me starting to spend again.” So, it doesn’t have to be a forever sacrifice. It can be a short-term thing that can then sort of catapult you to greater and greater ability to build your wealth. Does that make sense?

Inching Toward Investments: Take Your Time

29:04 Hajer: Totally. And I had a couple of comments on the frugality. Because I used to actually think like that, too. I used to think, “You know, frugality comes from a relative place of privilege.” To be able to think–and even the comment on fast fashion that I brought up, I was listening to a podcast and one of the key women who tried to really vouch for sustainable fashion. She works with a lot of celebrities. She talks about the fact that if you really calculate how much money you are spending on fast fashion, you could easily buy a couple of those things and investment pieces. So, again, it’s the idea–and like you mentioned as a PhD student–you know, really understanding where’s the investment worth being put in. And another really important point that I wanted to say is, I don’t think it’s wise to do all these changes all at once.

29:54 Hajer: To be like, “Okay, that’s it. I’m kind of all out. I’m changing everything I wanted to change.” There are of course going be habits that trickle in and that’s totally fine. But it’s again thinking that you’re responsible for your wealth, your financial management. So, what are the steps that you think you can do? And then start from there and slowly build in. So, you know, if you want to be a little bit more frugal or you want to go on a spending fast, but you want to make sure that you have some money initially just in case, then make that your priority and you’ll sort of focus on that. So, these are all gradual tips that require time to sort of get back on your feet of comfort with your money and comfort with your finances, but it’s important just to start somewhere and then, you know, build from there.

30:41 Emily: Yeah, I think that the idea that you have to revolutionize everything in your life at once to be successful with money is another one of those limiting beliefs that isn’t true that we tell ourselves as an excuse to getting out of doing anything. So, when I think about my own journey–when I started my business, Personal Finance for PhDs, it was when I finished graduate school and I had already attained a great deal of financial success at that point. And so if you looked at me at the end of graduate school and saw, “Okay, she’s got her stuff together, she’s budgeting, she’s saving, she’s investing, paying off debt, all that stuff.” It’s easy to overlook the seven years between college and when I finished my PhD that it took to get to that point of success. And I did not start off doing everything right out of the gate, right? This is something that I learned very gradually over time, and yet still, by my own definition, obtained a great deal of financial success several years later. So, it’s not that you have to exactly be like me or exactly be like you or exactly be like someone else you hold up as a model, like a financial mentor or something. You don’t have to instantly transform to be that person. It’s okay for it to take years. It will still be effective if you make slow changes. In fact, probably more so because it’s more sustainable.

Personal Finance Really Is “Personal”

31:55 Hajer: Exactly. And also take into consideration your personal situation. So, many PhD students live at home, so of course they don’t have the very high rent to pay. And of course that makes many things easier. Many PhD students are supported by other individuals that help them out. And some PhD students, again, are living in a more difficult financial situation in the sense that they have to pay rent and they’re solely responsible for themselves. So, take in your situation, and really think about what are the actionable steps that I can do, what are the beliefs that are holding me back? How do I change those? And again, it will take years to be really comfortable with the way that you want to spend money, and that’s completely okay. And there’s never the best way to money. There are certain things that some people may think, “Oh, you don’t need to spend on that.” But I personally like to and I’m okay with that. So reaching that place where you’re confident and comfortable in your money spending, it takes many years. But like you said, it’s always worth it. But it’s always important to take in your personal situation and your personal wealth and not try to compare your situation to someone else’s.

33:02 Emily: This is actually one of my favorite things about personal finance, is that it is intensely personal and intensely individual and there is not a cookie-cutter solution that’s going to work for everyone. It’s a challenging thing for me as a personal finance educator, but it’s just something that makes it such a rich field to be in. I want to get back to this question of mindset. Are there any more comments that you want to make about how to break this mindset, this accepting of the culture of being broke?

Encouraging Open Dialogues About Money in Grad School

33:29 Hajer: I think the first thing I want to say, like we mentioned, this culture is very, very persistent. This mindset is very, very hard to stay out of. Like sometimes I find, even though I’m totally against it, I find that I say things about the whole broke culture of being a student. In terms of breaking the mindset, it’s just always important to understand what being broke means and what us casually saying the word means. Many people, as we mentioned, do have some level of finances that they can spend. If you find that you are able to spend money, you’re technically not broke. So, you just think about that, and then take the steps that you want to take to get more financial freedom. And also just, I think it’s really helpful to bring up the conversations around your colleagues, whether that’s in school, your classmates, those in your lab.

34:22 Hajer: I do that often in my lab. It’s quite a big lab. So, we often talk about money and what does it mean to have money in graduate school. And sometimes if someone says, “Oh, you know, graduate students are always broke,” it’s important to sort of chime in and think, “Okay, well why are we broke? How do you break those down? Is it something that we just think in our head?” So, that’s why I think this podcast, I really gravitate towards it. Because it is just trying to have that conversation started. And I think that’s the most effective way to break that down because it’s hard as an individual, even if you got over that, just sort of change the culture around you and it will always creep into your mindset. But just starting the conversation, it doesn’t have to be on a podcast, of course.

35:02 Hajer: Individually, it’s really important to talk to the people around you about money and not make money a very taboo topic. Because I think if people don’t talk about how they’re spending money and all they talked about is the fact that they’re broke, it’s really easy to be like, “Okay, yeah, sure.” But to be more open with money and not have it very taboo I think will really help spearhead discussions of what does it mean to be in graduate school and have money. Like, how are the best ways to spend my stipend?

Call to Action: The Importance of Budget Breakdowns

35:32 Emily: This is one of the reasons why I really love doing the budget breakdown episodes that I have done in the past. In my first season of the podcast, I did 50% of the interviews were budget breakdowns where I think it was all graduate students except I did my own as well. I think it was all graduate students and talking about, “Okay, this is where I live, this is how much I make and this is how I spend it and these are my financial goals.” And it’s something that I’ve continued with the podcast, although not at the 50% frequency, but I just want to point out that I love these local examples, right? These very relatable examples. If someone else from that same institution living in the same city hears that particular podcast, that’s an easy way to start a discussion–not necessarily even with the person who was interviewed, but just someone else like, “Oh my gosh, I heard this thing and that person is spending how much on rent? And that means that they can turn around and do this with their finances. I wonder how I can find a place where I can only spend that much on rent?” Or like, “Wow, they meal prep their food and that means they only–you know.”

36:25 Emily: But it’s really valuable to see those local examples that are very, very relatable to you. Because it’s very easy to dismiss, as we were talking about before, frugal tips or something as something that doesn’t apply to me because I live in X , Y, Z and this is my particular situation. Well, if you end up talking to people who make the same amount of money that you do and live in the same place that you do, it’s a lot more relatable and their strategies are a lot more translatable. And frankly, you’re more likely to hear them if you listen to them. If you hear them from someone who you can identify with in those other factors. So, this is basically just a call for any listeners, please volunteer and submit your budget breakdown. Volunteer for a budget breakdown episode because I love doing those and I’m not really getting that many volunteers for them now, which is why we do a lot of other types of episodes. But anyway, I still love them. They hold a special place in my heart and I think they’re really valuable.

37:11 Hajer: I love them as well. On YouTube, I think Glamour magazine on YouTube has a lot of budget breakdowns, particularly in individuals in very expensive city like New York, San Francisco. And again, it’s really nice sort of think about how someone else spends their money and then you can translate that into thinking about how you spend your money. Another tip is, the first step if you’re going to take one actionable step, especially to break down the whole broke culture, is to really calculate how much money is going in every month, how much money are you spending? And that way you can numerically counteract the idea that, “Oh, you’re broke.” Because if it’s the, “Oh wow. After all the money that I get and after I spend it, I still have $400, like I’m not really a broke.” So, I think it’s really getting in tune with how much you’re spending. But because of the way the culture is right now, not many people are in tune with their spending habits. So, again, falling into that very broke culture. It’s very easy.

Tell Us More About Your Podcast Team

38:07 Emily: So, I understand you are part of a podcast team as well. So, what is that podcast and how can people find it? What is it about?

38:15 Hajer: So, it’s called Raw Talk Podcast, and essentially it’s a science communication podcast headed by students in the Institute of Medical Science at the University of Toronto. And essentially what the team tries to do is take these really key topics that people are interested in and go to scientists and ask them about their research and the latest discoveries of those topics. So, we’ve covered a wide array of topics such as autism spectrum disorder, the circadian rhythm, mental health in graduate school. And the idea is just to help you know, the general public and everyone understand what is the latest research and how do we best understand some of these topics that are not always well-represented in the media or that people may be curious in. You can find it on Facebook, Instagram, any podcast app, and Twitter and it’s just Raw Talk Podcast. And on Instagram, there’s a lot of new content featuring our guests and some really cool science tips or science fun facts. So, we really just try to break down some of the complex parts of science and be able to translate it using very local researchers that many people can Google and email.

39:31 Emily: This is such a fun way for people to get involved in science communication, I think. I mean I love podcasting obviously, And I just think it’s an amazing medium. And so, this is something that I know has been started. This kind of thing has been started at many other universities as well. And so, I mean if this is something that attracts you about potentially communicating science from your own university and you don’t want to take it all on yourself, it’s a really good idea to get a few other students together who are also interested in the same thing and start it up together and kind of spread the work around. So, that’s exciting. How long has this podcast been going on for?

40:06 Hajer: When the summer finished, which was about April, May, we just finished our third season, so we’re starting our fourth season in September.

How Else Can You Be Reached?

40:18 Emily: Great, great. Okay. And how else can people find you individually?

40:23 Hajer: Sure. So, I recently just started a science communication account myself as a science student and also moreso to share the graduate student experience and experience with research and academia. What does it look like, particularly being from more of an underrepresented group? I really wanted to share what that looks like, navigating academia and research. So, my main platform right now is Instagram, but I do hope to branch out and start blogging. But my Instagram is, @itshajernakua. So, I T S H A J E R N A K U A. And yeah, it’ll be really nice. And I try to share tips of grad school, tips about finding passion with research, and I’m also starting to get more into financial and money tips as a graduate student.

41:08 Emily: That sounds amazing. Okay, well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing this wonderful content.

41:14 Hajer: Thank you so much for having me. This is my first podcast being interviewed, not interviewing. So, this is really exciting.

Outtro

41:20 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhD’s are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode. And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Fellowship Income Is Now Eligible to Be Contributed to an IRA!

December 30, 2019 by Emily

In this episode, Emily explains the new legislation that allows non-W-2 fellowship income to be contributed to an Individual Retirement Arrangement (IRA). Up until 2019, fellowship or training grant income (reported on a Form 1098-T or Form 1099-MISC or not reported at all) was not eligible to be contributed to an IRA. Certain legislation, the Graduate Student Savings Act (GSSA), which fixes this problem, has been proposed a few times since 2016, but never passed. However, at the end of the 2019 Congressional session, the text of the GSSA was passed and signed into law as part of an omnibus spending bill (H.R. 1865). PhD trainees who are newly eligible to contribute to an IRA should consider their overall financial status and goals to determine whether to contribute and in what amount.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

IRS Publication 590A (p. 6, old definition of taxable compensation)
The Graduate Student Savings Act Fixes a Major Flaw in Tax-Advantaged Retirement Accounts
House Resolution 1865
IRS Publication 970 (p. 5, definition of fellowship)
Everything You Need to Know about Roth IRAs in Graduate School
One-on-One Financial Coaching
The Wealthy PhD

Intro

Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast: a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts.

This is Season 4 Bonus Episode 1, and in this episode I will update you on recent legislation that has a major positive impact on the PhD trainee population.

Specifically, starting on January 1st, 2020, the definition of “taxable compensation” for the purpose of contributing to an individual retirement arrangement or IRA was updated to include taxable fellowship income not reported on a W-2.

That’s the takeaway point for those of you already in the know about this issue: Your taxable non-W-2 fellowship income is now eligible to be contributed to an IRA. You can open a Roth or traditional IRA on January 1 or following and put in the $6,000 maximum contribution if you like, assuming your taxable fellowship income is at least $6,000 in 2020. If that’s all you need to know, feel free to stop this episode now, but please share it with your peers as you go.

In the rest of this episode, I will review the prior definition of taxable compensation and how it negatively impacted the PhD trainee community and then explain the recent legislation that changed the definition for 2020 and forward. At the end of the episode, I’ll point you to a few resources to help you in your investing journey.

1 The Prior Definition of Taxable Compensation

The federal government offers a few different tax incentives to encourage individuals to invest for their retirement.

When you invest money inside a tax-advantaged retirement account, you don’t have to pay tax on the growth in your investments as you would for a regular taxable investment account and you also can take a tax break on either the amount of money you contribute to the account or the amount of money you withdraw from the account in your retirement.

Most of the tax incentives are offered through workplace-based retirement accounts, such as a 401(k) in the private sector or a 403(b) in the nonprofit sector. However, there is one type of account that can be opened outside of your workplace, and that is the Individual Retirement Arrangement or IRA.

You as an individual can go to just about any brokerage firm and open an IRA, and it’s not at all connected to where you work. The contribution limit for an IRA is $6,000 per year if you’re under age 50.

The restriction the federal government places on IRAs is that you have to have what’s called “taxable compensation” in a given calendar year to contribute to an IRA. Your overall income also has to fall under certain limits to contribute.

The old definition of taxable compensation was as follows. Think of a two-column list. The left-hand column is types of income that are considered taxable compensation, and the right-hand column is types of income that are not considered taxable compensation. I’m not giving you the exhaustive lists, but just an idea.

In the left-hand list, taxable compensation, you had:

W-2 income, such as you would receive from being an employee,
Self-employment income,
Alimony,
Etc.

In the right-hand list, not taxable compensation, you had:

Rental income,
Interest and dividend income,
Pension or annuity income,
Taxable scholarship and fellowship income not reported on a W-2,
Etc.

This was specified in the tax code. So if your fellowship or training grant income was reported on any kind of tax form other than a W-2, such as a 1098-T or 1099-MISC, or not reported at all, it was not considered taxable compensation for the purposes of contributing to an IRA.

That means that if you went an entire calendar year with only non-W-2 fellowship income, you would not have been able to contribute to an IRA in that calendar year.

This was really tough news for a lot of people in our PhD community. The irony was that students and postdocs who won outside fellowships often received a higher income than their employee peers, so they perhaps had more money available to invest, but they were barred from using an IRA to do so.

Now, there were a couple workarounds. Keep in mind that the contribution limit to an IRA is $6,000 or the amount of your taxable compensation, whichever is lower.

First, the calendar year and the academic year do not line up. So if your funding source switched between W-2 and non-W-2 between academic years, you would still have at least a degree of IRA eligibility in that calendar year.

Second, if you were married and your spouse had taxable compensation, you could contribute to a spousal IRA, up to their amount of taxable compensation or the overall $12,000 per year limit for two IRAs, whichever was lower.

Third, if you had a side hustle, that self-employment or W-2 income would give you some eligibility.

As a last resort, if you truly didn’t have access to an IRA in a calendar year, you still had the option to invest for retirement in a regular taxable investment account. If you chose a tax-efficient investing strategy, such as passive index investing, you probably would not have much of an additional tax burden due to the favorable tax rates for long-term capital gains and qualified dividends. However, this tax advantage was not widely recognized.

The effect of this law was that many PhD students and postdocs who had the financial means to invest for retirement were prevented from contributing to IRAs, and they likely didn’t try to invest instead in a taxable account. The law sent the message that PhD trainees were not supposed to be investing for retirement and were not worthy of being extended the same tax break that employees were. This had an overall dampening effect on the financial ambition of PhD trainees, which in my opinion was a very serious problem.

2 The Legislation That Changed the Definition

All that has changed now. In essence, the new legislation moved taxable scholarship and fellowship income not reported on a W-2 from the right-hand column to the left, from being explicitly excluded from the definition of taxable compensation to being explicitly included in the definition for graduate students and postdocs.

The origin of this legislation was the bipartisan Graduate Student Savings Act or GSSA, first introduced in 2016 in the Senate by Senators Elizabeth Warren and Mike Lee and in the House by Congressmen Joe Kennedy and Luke Messer; however, it was not passed at that time. The GSSA was re-introduced in 2017 and 2019 and eventually included in the bipartisan SECURE Act in 2019, none of which passed.

You can learn more about the GSSA in Season 4 Episode 9 of this podcast, in which I interview Abby Dove, a graduate student who as a science policy fellow worked on getting a scientific advocacy group to endorse the GSSA.

Ultimately, in the closing days of the 2019 session, the text of the GSSA was included in an omnibus spending bill along with the rest of the SECURE Act, passed by both chambers of Congress, and signed into law by the president.

I’ll read to you exactly the change that was made in House Resolution 1865, and I’ll link it from the show notes.

“SEC. 106. CERTAIN TAXABLE NON-TUITION FELLOWSHIP AND STIPEND PAYMENTS TREATED AS COMPENSATION FOR IRA PURPOSES.

(a) In General.—Paragraph (1) of section 219(f) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended by adding at the end the following: “The term ‘compensation’ shall include any amount which is included in the individual’s gross income and paid to the individual to aid the individual in the pursuit of graduate or postdoctoral study.”

(b) Effective Date.—The amendment made by this section shall apply to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2019.”

There you have it! The definition of “taxable compensation” for the purposes of contributing to an IRA now includes taxable fellowship income for graduate students and postdocs. However, by my reading, it seems that taxable post-baccalaureate fellowships have not been included in the definition.

That language of “aid the individual in the pursuit of graduate or postdoctoral study” reflects the definition of a fellowship from IRS Publication 970, which reads quote “A fellowship grant is generally an amount paid for the benefit of an individual to aid in the pursuit of study or research” end quote.

3 What to Do Now

This change is really good news for the PhD trainee community overall, but it may or may not materially change anything for you. If you now have access to an IRA in 2020 when you otherwise would not have, what should you do? I imagine that PhD trainees fall into one of three groups.

First, some PhD trainees should not be investing for retirement right now, so having access to an IRA doesn’t really matter. This is the case if you don’t have the available cash flow to invest or have other, higher-priority financial goals, such as paying off high-interest debt or saving up cash.

Second, some PhD trainees are ready and able to invest but don’t have pre-existing savings or investments. Maybe they have recently finished paying off certain types of debt or saving up sufficient cash, and they now have cash flow available for investing. This is the group that can open up an IRA and set up a regular savings rate into it; this is called dollar cost averaging. With a $6,000 per year limit, your regular monthly contribution to the IRA can be up to $500, which would be a great savings rate for a graduate student or postdoc.

Third, some PhD trainees have already been saving or investing outside of an IRA and are eager to contribute a lump sum of money to an IRA. You are permitted to contribute the full $6,000 in one go if that’s your preference. Then, throughout the year, you can direct your ongoing savings rate to a taxable investment account or other financial goals.

One question I’ve already received a few times is whether fellowship recipients will be able to contribute to a 2019 IRA. In general, you are allowed to contribute to your prior year’s IRA up until tax day of the subsequent year, and this is a strategy I recommend to anyone who has not yet maxed out their IRA for the prior year. However, since the text of the bill says the change will go into effect after December 31, 2019, my reading is that the old definition of taxable compensation will apply to 2019 IRAs and the new definition will apply to 2020 IRAs.

If you’re not sure what your unique next steps should be or if what I spoke about today even applies to you, I am available to coach you. I can’t recommend specific funds, but we can work together to determine your next financial goal, increase your savings rate, and figure out which high-level investing strategy is most appropriate for you.

You can set up one-on-one coaching with me by going to PFforPhDs.com/coaching. Another excellent option is to participate in my upcoming program, The Wealthy PhD, through which you will receive course content, individual and group coaching, and community with your peers. You can find more information about The Wealthy PhD at PFforPhDs.com/wealthyPhD.

I would be absolutely delighted to shepherd fellowship recipients who have never before invested through the process.

As for additional resources, I have many, many articles on investing on my website, and I have linked several updated ones from the show notes. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s4be1 for season 4, bonus episode 1.

For international students and postdocs, I would also recommend listening to Season 4 Episode 17 of this podcast, which answers the question of whether it is permissible and advisable for international students, postdocs, and workers to invest while living in the US. Keep in mind that I recorded this episode prior to the definition of taxable compensation changing.

Finally, if you need to take a big step back because you were surprised to hear that your fellowship and potentially scholarship income is taxable, I recommend listening to Season 2 Bonus Episode 1 of this podcast, titled Do I Owe Income Tax on My Fellowship?

Thank you for joining me for this special bonus episode. Please spread the good news about IRA eligibility to your peers also receiving fellowship or training grant income by sharing this episode with them!

Outtro

Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode.

PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved.

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow:

One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use.

Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers.

Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes.

Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs.

See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance—but it helps.

The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC.

How Effective Presentations Advance Your Career and Improve Your Finances

December 23, 2019 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Echo Rivera, a PhD in community psychology and founder of Creative Research Communications. Echo is an expert in effective presentation, and she teaches these skills to other academics and researchers. Emily and Echo discuss the various ways effective presenting can improve an early-career PhD’s finances, such as through career advancement and networking in person and online. Effective presentation design can even help you feel more confident and move past a fear of public speaking, as it did for Echo.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Echo: Try to invest in yourself as soon as you can. Especially for something like effective communication skills, effective presentation skills, the earlier you can get in on some type of professional development, it’s going to pay off more in the long run.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season 4, episode 19 and today my guest is Dr. Echo Rivera, a PhD in community psychology and expert in effective presentation design. During graduate school, Echo began teaching herself effective presentation design to help her move past her own anxiety around public speaking. Through her business, Creative Research Communications, she teaches academics and researchers how to present effectively. We discuss the various ways effective presenting can improve your career prospects and financial bottom line. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Echo Rivera.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:05 Emily: Joining me on the podcast today is Dr. Echo Rivera, and I’m so pleased to have Echo on. We’ve been in each other’s circles for a number of years now, but this is actually the first time that we’re talking together live. I’m really excited to have a conversation with her about what she does and how it can improve early career PhDEs finances. So Echo, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

01:26 Echo: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

01:29 Emily: Awesome. So please tell us a little bit more about yourself.

01:33 Echo: Yeah, so just real briefly, I have a PhD in community psychology from Michigan State University and immediately after finishing my PhD, I got a job as a research associate at a nonprofit research and evaluation center and that’s in Denver, Colorado. I worked there for three years and then quit so that I could pursue my own business full time. That’s called Creative Research Communications and I’ve been doing that for about one and a half years. That’s the nutshell.

02:09 Emily: So one and a half years full time, but you started this sometime before you left your job?

02:14 Echo: Yeah, it was the side hustle. Something I worked on on the weekends or when I got home after work.

02:20 Emily: Yeah, we talk plenty about side hustling on this podcast. Echo and I met through the self employed PhD community originally, which now is part of Beyond the Professoriate run by Jen Polk and Maren Wood. If any of you are self employed in your side hustle or your full time thing, or interested in that, that’s a great community to join to have more conversations with me and people like Echo and others who are pursuing the same kind of thing, so definitely want to plug that.

More About Creative Research Communications

02:48 Emily: All right. So awesome. You’re now self-employed. Tell us a little bit more about what your business is, like what do you actually do?

02:56 Echo: Yeah, so I help academics and researchers and scientists and basically people in this higher education world, I help them communicate their work more effectively and creatively. So that’s mostly through slide presentations, like PowerPoint, Keynote, Google Slides, stuff like that, because it’s just a great place to start for a lot of people, but it also includes things like comics and infographics and visual abstracts and just things that are beyond a standard conference presentation or publication. Today I’ll be focusing on presentations, but a lot of it’s about creativity.

03:36 Emily: Gotcha. What inspired you to go into this line of work?

03:40 Echo: In undergrad I was really torn between going into graphic design for my major or psychology for my major. I had already transferred universities and it was already going to take me five years to get my bachelor’s degree and it would have taken even longer if I switched my major to graphic design. So I basically just went with psychology and I enjoyed research. My degree is in research, not clinical psychology, so I just kind of went with it. But I never really left that graphic design world. I took classes, I learned on my own, and in grad school, I just kind of started merging those together, using graphic design for things like participant recruitment flyers and toolkits, presentations, obviously. I did comics for a blog. It just kind of always was merged for me, and I really loved it, so I made it my business.

04:37 Emily: Yeah. Well, it is kind of a leap from applying your talents and doing something for your own work, to teaching others how to do it or doing it for other people. Now which one do you do or is it both?

04:49 Echo: It’s both. I do design presentation slides or comics or things like that for others. I also train people to do it and I have sort of different options, like an online course or one-on-one sort of more mentoring style. I try to help everybody where they’re at, and what their available time and resources look like. So I offer that that wide range.

05:13 Emily: Gotcha. Very, very exciting. I had another interview recently in season three with Dr. Gaius Augustus who told a similar story, I’m sure you know Gaius, of how he also was an artist and a scientist and over time has found a way to combine both of those two passions. So yeah, really cool that we’re having another episode around that same idea.

Effective Presenting and Finances

05:35 Emily: But Echo, why are you here on a personal finance podcast talking about effective presenting? How can the skills that you teach people, if people are able to present more effectively, how can that actually affect their bottom line?

05:52 Echo: I’m so excited to talk about this, especially because I haven’t really talked about this on my blog, yet, so this is kind of the first time I’m really out there telling people this, but I need to, because effective presenting it can help you in some pretty obvious ways, but also some more indirect ways that you might not have thought about. The things I want to talk about today are how effective presenting can help you with the obvious thing, which is a job talk. Pretty important. And some of the less obvious things, like networking and promotions, once you have a job.

Situation #1: Job Talks

06:29 Emily: Excellent. Yeah, let’s get started with the obvious one. If you are finishing up your PhD, finishing up a postdoc, finishing up a job, you’re looking for something new. Pretty common. If you’re going to another research position, certainly within academia, but also outside of academia that you’re going to have to give a job talk or research talk in some capacity. So you’re presenting your past work, maybe you’re even presenting a proposal for future work at that particular institution. That’s kind of the context of what we mean by a job talk. So what can people do when they’re preparing for a job talk to make it killer? And why would it matter if they did a great presenting job with that? How would that actually affect whether or not they get the position?

07:10 Echo: Yeah, yeah. Let’s talk about all of that. So why does this matter? I’ll start there. The reason why this matters is because once you get to that point, once you’re invited for an interview, the job talk is probably one of the most important things. I have even a couple of quotes for you. Karen Kelsey, from The Professor Is In, who is amazing and if you don’t know about her website definitely check it out. In one of her webinars about job talks, she had a quote, this is sort of like a loose quote, but she said “you cannot bomb the job talk and still get the job.” She just came right out and she just said it. You’re not going to get an offer if you bomb the job talk. That’s how important it is. And even Rick Reis, I might be saying his name wrong, from Stanford, he’s called Tomorrow’s Professor, he said the job talk is, quote: “Perhaps the single most important thing you’ll do during an academic interview.” So you know that’s a lot of pressure. I mean a lot rides on this job talk and —

08:22 Emily: I just want to jump in there, because it’s a little bit almost counterintuitive to think that it would matter that much, right? If you can’t do this one thing, you are disqualified from this new position. Because maybe giving presentations is not going to be a huge part of that actual job. Maybe doing the research is what it is or maybe it’s teaching, which is a little bit different from a presentation kind of scenario. The one-on-one interviewing that you do over the course of the interview visit, all that stuff matters as well. And maybe why is the job talk important in particular? I mean, we’re not asking why, we’re just saying it is really, really important. It’s a little bit counterintuitive because maybe you’re not thinking that that’s a huge part of what you do. I mean, what percentage of your time do you actually spend presenting, as like a researcher or an academic? It’s pretty small ,yet a lot rides on those singular moments, right?

09:17 Echo: Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of it is…I don’t know how it was 10, 15 years ago, but we all know how much more competitive the job market is now. It’s an ultra competitive situation and it is one way where you can set yourself apart from other people who are also there or doing a job talk. So that is one reason I think it’s so important. But I’m sure it’s a complex combination of reasons too.

09:50 Emily: That was the obvious thing, right? You’ve got to nail the job talk, of course, and the skills that you teach are going to help the candidate do that. Outside of the job talk scenario, what are some other ways and other scenarios where effective presenting can really help your finances?

Situation #2: Networking

10:08 Echo: Networking is one of the ones that might surprise people, because it is a little more indirect. This is something that will help just about everyone. I know we were just talking about a job talk and an academic interview, which mostly applies to academic jobs, but in terms of nonacademic jobs, as well as academic jobs, your network is crucial. It’s crucial for getting opportunities, whether it’s for publications or projects or grants or jobs even — your network is really crucial at pretty much any stage of your career. So how do you network? There’s a lot of tips out there, there’s a lot of suggestions, and one way is through presentations. So how? If you think about it, conferences are actually an excellent opportunity for increasing your network, which I think a lot of people already know. I don’t think that’s new and surprising. What people might not think about is that if you have a visually engaging, effective presentation, one that is organized, one that is easy to follow, that people understand that doesn’t feel overwhelming, isn’t just all text, isn’t just bullet points, it doesn’t have word clouds, doesn’t have all the data, it’s an organized narrative — people will be more likely to come up to you and talk to you after your presentation and you’re going to stand out more. If you think about it, one hard part about networking is just making that introduction. When you want to meet someone new but you’re nervous, you don’t know how to break the ice, you don’t know what to say — if you have a presentation, you’ve given that to people. People can now come up to you and they know what they want to say — “your presentation was great, your slides were great, I loved your presentation” — and it breaks the ice and people have already connected with you because you presentation was great. It speeds all that up along and encourages ways to build your network.

12:17 Emily: I totally, totally agree with you. Obviously as someone who presents as part of my living, I agree with you that it’s, it’s a wonderful way to start networking. Another thing, a little bit to take a step back from maybe an individual presentation that you give, if you as a researcher, as a PhD, increase your confidence around presenting because you’ve learned how to create effective visuals, you’ve done some practicing of your actual delivery of presentation, wouldn’t you be more likely to put your name in to do this sort of thing more and more and more, if you build up your skills and you feel competent. It’s kind of a stereotype, but public speaking is people’s number one fear, right? It’s like the worst, most intimidating thing that you would possibly do. Many, many people think that. So instead of shrinking back from those opportunities, if you have confidence around that, especially if you’ve been trained in some capacity, then you can again, put yourself out there, put yourself forward, and be increasing your network, because you’re just having more and more of those opportunities, where maybe you wouldn’t, if you weren’t feeling so confident about it.

13:23 Echo: Absolutely. I’m really glad that you actually brought that up because I’ve really started all of this — my own personal training for effective presenting, because I was terrified of public speaking. I was scared. I was nervous. I would throw up before a presentation. I was really high on that anxiety scale. I started doing visual presentations and storytelling and academic presentations almost as a way to distract from myself and help myself just get up on the stage hoping people would look at my slides and not mean. Then, just over time people would compliment me and I would be surprised and not believe them at first, but then, over time, it really did build up my confidence and now I love it. Now I love public speaking and giving presentations because I know people are going to engage with it. It’s going to resonate with them, they’re going to be able to understand it and it goes really well.

14:23 Emily: Yeah, and this ties into the job talk part of it as well. If you’re feeling confident about giving that job talk, you’re going to come off that much better in the interview. Something I’ve also seen, and this is sort of regarding networking as well, in the past few years since I’ve been giving presentations at universities, I see people pull out their phones or their iPads and take photos of my screen. I’m assuming it’s usually for their own like future reference or something like that. But if you, and I’m not saying I do, but if one has really beautiful visuals up on that screen, that’s a sharing opportunity, in terms of social media. We’ve all seen, if you follow a conference on Twitter, people are posting images of slides from presentations and so forth, so if you have a particularly beautiful, engaging, clear, as you were saying earlier, slide, that’s something that could even expand that network beyond the people in the room.

15:18 Echo: That’s such a great idea. Yeah, that is so true. I definitely see people sharing slides from conferences they’re at all the time on Twitter and the ones that get a lot of engagement and excitement are definitely the ones I would say are more well-designed compared to the ones that are all text, small text, bullet points, that kind of thing.

15:38 Emily: Yeah. The text ones might be getting some photos in the room because they’re like, “Oh, I can’t read all of this and the amount of time it’s going to be up, I need this for future reference”, but the shareable ones are definitely going to be the more beautiful and clear ones.

Commercial

15:53 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money, but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series, as you make changes over the long term. You can find out more at PFforPhDs.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part coaching, part course, and part community. You can find out more and join the wait list for the next time I open the program at PFforPhDs.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Situation #3: Promotions

17:07 Emily: Okay, so what was the third way that effective presenting can affect one’s bottom line?

17:13 Echo: The other way was promotions. This works for academic context, but also nonacademic context. A lot of people think that, okay, so presentations are great for a job talk, itt helps me get the job, but once I have it, now it’s time to worry about tenure. And that is all about publications and that’s not a good time to learn how to present effectively. And yes, publications are important. I’m not trying to diminish that at all, but I think people don’t realize how presentations can help with the other part of the tenure package. So for example, I just had a student in one of my online courses, she’s an assistant professor. She just did her third year review letter, which she called, a mini tenure package and she wrote in there in her section about teaching effectiveness, she talked about the professional development that she took, how it helped her teach her undergrads and how she was evidenced based principles that she learned in my course for learning and memory and that kind of thing. And she had quotes from her student evaluations and her students even said things like “the PowerPoints were the best part of the class” — is a loose quote. But it was something like that where they said PowerPoint slides were the best part of this course. And so it can help you in that area. It can help you with maybe the broader impact, if you have to talk about that. It can help you with those other areas if you just frame it that way.

18:49 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this all again goes back to effective communication of which presenting and visuals and all of that are components of that. But just effective communication in general, of course that’s going to help you maintain the job you have, get promotions at the job that you’re in, not just in a new job scenario. Yeah. Great point. And again, I actually want to go back to the confidence aspect that we were talking about earlier because I’m thinking, okay, we’ve been talking a lot about landing a job, keeping a job, and that’s career-related, which is obviously within the scope of personal finance. But I’m also thinking about like negotiations. I don’t know if you’d necessarily be using visuals in a in a negotiation session with your potential supervisor or boss, or your existing one, b,ut again around the confidence, if you’re just building up your confidence in talking in front of people, in presenting a case to other people, that is an enormous asset to have with you when you go into a negotiation situation.

19:53 Echo: Yeah, and I would actually agree with that. Part of effective presenting, a lot of people are thinking probably about design, about typography and text and text size and colors and that kind of thing, which is definitely part of it. The other part is also the story-boarding, which is just the word I use to describe organizing your content, what order are you going to say things, what are you going to say, what level of detail. And learning that for presentations is a great place to start, but then it starts helping you just to make good arguments in other areas. I’ve heard this from my students that it even helped with things like grant applications because you learn how to set up your argument and maybe it’s not an argument, but you still learn how to hook the audience from the first thing that you say. So yeah, if you want to negotiate for a promotion or a raise, you’ll have more skills to do that in a more narrative, storytelling kind of way. A lot of academics were trained to do fact, fact, fact, like just a list of facts, just a data dump. And that’s not an effective way to communicate. That wouldn’t be an effective way to communicate for a promotion, probably. You would want to start with more of an engaging opening, so to speak.

21:23 Emily: Yeah. I’m really seeing how, I mean, we started talking about effective presenting, but how these skills that you’re talking about are permeating so many different areas of professional life.

21:35 Emily: Okay, I think we’ve made a good case. People care about the skill set, they want to get better at it. Really quickly, what are some tips that you have for people to do a better job in this area that they could implement right away?

Presentation Tips You Can Implement Today

21:52 Echo: Yeah. I think there’s some things that you’ve heard before so I won’t spend too much time on them. I’ll just reinforce them a little bit. Less text. Yes, even academics want less text on your slides and you want to use bigger font sizes. A lot of people they have too small font sizes. The other thing that I wanted to mention, because a lot of people feel like the problem is PowerPoint, and that they have to spend a lot of money on a fancy program like Prezi, or they have to take a lot of time to learn a new program. I have good news and the good news is that you don’t need to do that. PowerPoint is actually fantastic. You can absolutely make visually engaging presentations with PowerPoint or with Keynote. So if you’re an Apple user, Keynote is great as well. Google Slides is okay. It has fewer features, and most people have PowerPoint anyway. So PowerPoint is great. You can totally use PowerPoint.

22:53 Emily: Yeah. So it turns out the tool was not the problem, it’s our usage of the tool.

22:59 Echo: Exactly. And the other thing I wanted to mention was habits. You probably also know that you should be practicing your presentation and that you should be starting your presentation earlier than say, on the plane ride to the conference. I know —

23:16 Emily: You don’t say?

23:17 Echo: I know it happens, I’ve done it, so I totally get it, I’ve totally been there. But if you start earlier, it doesn’t have to be a lot of time, but if you start earlier and give yourself time in between revisions, you’ll be surprised at how much better your presentations turn out, because I think a lot of presentations are ineffective because people are cramming in it at the last second.

23:40 Emily: Yeah, it’s just something that hasn’t been thought through well yet.

23:44 Echo: Yeah, exactly.

Final Words of Advice

23:46 Emily: The final question that I like to ask everyone who comes on the podcast is what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be related to what we’ve been talking about today or it could be something totally different.

24:00 Echo: Yeah, I think, partly related to what we’re talking about is try to invest in yourself as soon as you can. Especially for something like effective communication skills, effective presentation skills, the earlier you can get in on some type of professional development, it’s going to pay off more in the long run. For example, if you learn it now, then you’re going to have those skills when it comes time to make your job talk presentation, you’re teaching demo. You’ll already know how to make good slides for that and a good presentation from start to finis,h rather than trying to do all of that at the last second. And the earlier you learn it, the sooner your presentations will be better and more effective, and then you can sort of continue to improve on that over time. That’s sort of a tip I wanted to share.

24:53 Emily: Yeah, totally, totally agree. And the thing is, the listener might be thinking, especially if they’re still in training, “I am investing in myself right now, I’m taking this huge pay cut to like be in grad school or be doing a postdoc, that is investing in myself.” But the unfortunate reality, as we mentioned earlier, is that a lot of essential skills for the workplace, and even for the job you have right now, are not being taught by universities or by advisers or by departments. Maybe they are in some pockets, I don’t want to say that’s a universal thing. Maybe you at your university have a course on public speaking. Maybe there’s something available to you, that’s awesome if you can take advantage of that. But probably most places it’s not available, or it’s not really a good time investment, maybe you have to put way too much time into it than what would be effective for you. So I totally agree that it’s oftentimes very necessary to go outside the university environment to pick up these skills. And the earlier you do it, of course, as you said, the more and more you can deploy those skills over the years and hone them and continue to develop them.

Find Dr. Echo Rivera Online

25:58 Emily: Speaking of which, Echo, how do people get them to get you to teach them some of these skills that we’ve been talking about?

26:06 Echo: Yeah, so I hope that I’ve excited people about learning presentation design and how to be an effective presenter because I have tons of stuff on my website. I have free courses, I have tons of blog posts, I have some download-ables in my blog posts, I have a YouTube channel. All of that you can find at echorivera.com so it’s just my name, Echo Rivera dot com. I’m also really active on social media. I’m on Twitter and Instagram and my handles are @echoechoR. Find me on social media, check out my website. I’d love to connect and I’m just kind of curious what people thought of this podcast and if they learned something new or just want to chat, so don’t hesitate to reach out.

26:59 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. When this episode comes out, I’ll be tweeting a bunch of times that week and tagging Echo and certainly reply to any of those and tell us like what you thought about this. Maybe this is a surprising thing for us to talk be talking about on a personal finance podcast, but as you can see, it plays into your finances in so many different ways and these skill sets are so essential. Echo, thank you so much for, for being my guest today.

27:24 Echo: Thanks so much for having me.

Outtro

27:26 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

This PhD Compares Her Experiences at a Unionized University and a Non-Unionized University

November 18, 2019 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Carly Overfelt. Carly received a master’s from Purdue University, which does not have a graduate student union, and a PhD from the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, which has a longstanding graduate student union. Carly compares and contrasts her experiences as a graduate student worker at her two alma maters; she received higher pay and benefits at UMass. She shares the history of the graduate student union at UMass and the nature of her work within the union’s bargaining unit. At the end of the interview, we address the core questions around graduate student unions: Does the university view graduate students primarily as students or primarily as workers? Are graduate students paid well enough for their assistantship work to allow them to pursue their other job of completing their dissertation?

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Carly: A lot of union work and bargaining is holding onto as much of what you already had as you can because unions are not as powerful as they used to be. And so, usually, when you’re bargaining, you’re trying to mitigate something disastrous that the management is doing. They’re usually slashing something, and you are using your collective power to mitigate that as much as possible.

Introduction

00:27 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode 14, and today my guest is Dr. Carly Overfelt. Carly received a masters from Purdue University, which does not have a graduate student union, and a PhD from the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, which has a longstanding graduate student union. Carly compares and contrasts her experiences as a graduate student worker at her two alma maters. She shares the history of the graduate student union at UMass and the nature of her work within the union’s bargaining unit. At the end of the interview, we get to the heart of the question around graduate student unions: Does your university support you in your dual roles as student and worker, or does one eclipse the other? Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Carly Overfelt.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:24 Emily: I am delighted to have on the podcast with me today Dr. Carly Overfelt, and she is here to talk to us about being at two different universities during graduate school, one that didn’t have a union and one that did and the differences between those two experiences. So, Carly, thank you so much for joining me today, and will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

01:44 Carly: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I’m Carly, and I started my graduate school journey at Purdue University where I did a master’s degree in linguistics and then a master’s degree in English. That took me about three and a half years, and then I started a PhD at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst. I finished my PhD in the spring of 2017. My interests were in linguistics and literature. I got interested in supporting linguistic diversity through my teaching. So, the position I have right now is at a small liberal arts college in Minnesota, and I’m kind of an adviser/tutor/instructor for our international students and domestic multilingual students. Yeah, it’s a great job.

Finances while at a Non-Unionized University

02:33 Emily: Very interesting. Yeah. Glad to hear that you’re enjoying that. So, let’s go back to your days at Purdue as a master’s student. So, what was the financial lay of the land at this non-unionized university?

02:48 Carly: Right. So, you know, since I had never been to a unionized university yet, I didn’t really have a comparison point, but I remember, you know, just like so many graduate students- broke all time, you know, my rent was almost 50% of my pay. Which I think is going to sound familiar to a lot of folks. That was the start of my expertise in the side hustle. In addition to teaching a few times a week and having meetings with students in office hours, I was also tutoring three nights a week for about $20 an hour cash. And so, I ended up spending so much of my time during the week on my side hustle that it was really hard for me to perform as well in my courses as I wanted to and to do the research that is necessary to do well. Right. So that was pretty tough.

03:42 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like, were you a TA for the entirety of your time there? That was how you received your stipend?

03:50 Carly: I was. I was teaching a communications class for international graduate students, and the whole time I was there, I was teaching for that program. And sometimes there was a summer version of that that I could teach.

04:06 Emily: Yeah, it’s a little bit surprising to me, just given that Purdue is in a low cost of living area. I mean, we’re already hearing like, okay, you move from Purdue to UMass Amherst. I’d imagine there’s a big cost of living difference there. But even in Purdue, your stipend was only about twice what your rent was or maybe not even that much it sounds like.

04:24 Carly: Right, right. That’s right. And we did have health insurance benefits. Some of that came out of our paycheck, and they were fine. They weren’t as good as what I had through my parents before I started graduate school. But it was like, it was okay.

04:38 Emily: How about dental and vision?

04:41 Carly: Dental and vision was a little bit extra. And they would take that out of your paycheck as well. Some other things I want to note–and these were differences I didn’t notice as much until later–but we did not get paid through the holiday months. So, it was kind of several weeks that we were not getting paid. And we also had hefty fees through our program in the fall semester. And sometimes we would start getting bills for those before we had gotten a full paycheck through our teaching associateships. So, that was pretty tough.

05:16 Emily: Okay. So, you’re saying that your stipend was not a 12-month stipend, but it stopped over winter break and then what about the summer?

05:23 Carly: Right. So, it stopped over winter break, and it didn’t continue for the summer unless you were lucky enough to have a summer class assigned to you, and then it would pick up again in, say, like June.

05:36 Emily: And also, of course, the very common problem of paying fees one time per year or one time per semester. And it’s a real hit to the budget. That’s a really hard thing to cash flow on a grad student stipend. Yeah. OK. So not such a pretty picture.

05:51 Carly: No. Pretty tough.

05:52 Emily: Anything else you want to add to that?

05:54 Carly: No, I think that’s about it. That pretty much covers it.

Finances while at a Unionized University

05:57 Emily: Okay. And then when you moved on to UMass Amherst, you started realizing things didn’t have to be the way they were.

06:05 Carly: Right.

06:06 Emily: So, what was it like there?

06:09 Carly: I was very excited when I heard that they were unionized because I, you know, grew up in kind of a union household. My dad and stepdad both were kind of hardcore union. So, I was like, “Oh yeah, let’s do this!” But I didn’t realize how much it was going to change my financial picture until just like kind of living it. So, a few major differences right away. We were paid a lot more. Maybe not twice as much, but it was at least a 30% increase over–maybe 40% over–what I was being paid before. And that’s just wages, not talking about benefits. So that was noticeable. The fees were smaller, but also it was written into our contract that you could have that spread throughout and taken out of your paycheck, and we were paid through the holidays.

06:58 Emily: I really love the benefit of actually paying something with each paycheck. Because like, I mean fees–it kind of depends. They may be a reality or not, but just if you know what they are and they’re going to come at regular intervals, they are a lot easier to deal with. So, love that. And you said you were paid through holidays, and what about summer?

07:17 Carly: In the summer, it was kind of similar where if you were lucky enough to have a summer class assignment, which in my department was extremely rare, then you could be paid through the summers. So, I still had to, you know, work my side hustle skills, but at least I only had to do that in the summer. Sometimes I would do my side hustles during the week to just sort of help myself with the cushion for the summer. But to put that in perspective, I would do maybe one four-hour, you know, side gig shift per week to sort of just keep my relationship with that employer, and then work during the summer more hours for that kind of side hustle. So I actually was able to spend time on research and writing and conferences. I think I went to one conference the whole time I was at Purdue in terms of presenting, and then that switched to actually having the time to work towards that. And I was going to maybe two conferences per year when I was in my PhD program because I had time to do it. It was great.

What about Travel Funding and TA-ships?

08:20 Emily: Actually, I’m glad you brought up conference travel because that’s kind of another benefit that may or may not be in place. So it sounds like, because you weren’t side hustling so much, you had more time to go to conferences. Was there additional funding available for that sort of thing, or were you paying for that out of your own pocket?

08:34 Carly: I was usually paying for that out of my own pocket. There was a little bit more funding in that department, but it wasn’t part of the union contract bargaining. I think it was just a department that had different maybe funding priorities, you know, just generally for their graduate students. I don’t think I’m remembering this incorrectly, I think that was something that was just department-specific.

08:58 Emily: Gotcha. And were you also a TA throughout your PhD? Like that was your position every term?

09:05 Carly: I was. I was a TA, first teaching for the writing program, and then teaching for the English department, and getting my stipend through that and benefits which were very good and actually better than the benefits I have in my full-time alt-ac job right now.

09:24 Emily: What do you mean by that? What makes them better?

09:27 Carly: So, the deductible and coinsurance strategies that we usually get through our employer benefits. You know, when you lose the power of sort of negotiating for that and it just sort of gets handed to you from on high, it doesn’t take long to start seeing the differences in what are you going to pay in copay, what types of services are covered, and that kind of thing.

Paid Leave and Other Union Benefits at UMass Amherst

09:51 Emily: Gotcha. Let’s see, you talked about leave over the holidays, but–was built in the contract and maybe in contrast to when you were at Purdue–any like other kinds of paid leave? Or maybe you didn’t access this but you know about it, like maybe parental leave or short term disability leave, anything like that?

10:12 Carly: Yeah, there were different leaves that were available. There was even vacation in our contract. Of course, no one ever took it because you’re teaching, right? So, it was pretty rare for anyone to actually, you know, do that. But if you were savvy enough about your union contract, you kind of notice those things. Or if you were sort of touching base with your union reps enough to sort of learn about some of the more specific–because a lot of times, and this makes sense, a lot of times residents were thinking about the pay. That’s really the main thing that they’re concerned about. But there are sort of these other things that you learn about that you have those benefits. If you’re sort of plugged into the union a little bit more and reading their emails and doing all that–it takes a lot of time though. Right?

10:56 Carly: And you know, grad students are always very busy. So, you know, no shame for people who didn’t know about some of those details. But if you were plugged into it, there were different things. Some things that, you know, were negotiated in the contract were, like, paid parking. So, if you just want to park on campus as a grad student employee, everyone knows that can be very expensive. But the union had actually negotiated certain rates for graduate student employees to lower those costs. So, another benefit was, one of the bargaining years that I was there, the bargaining team negotiated access to all-gender restrooms where you’re working. So, in these huge campuses, right? You know, it’s not the same experience for everyone in every department, every building. And that’s something that you should be able to use the restroom and feel comfortable and safe. And that’s something that was actually written into the contract. So, that was a huge one.

11:53 Emily: Yeah, that’s super interesting. Yeah, interesting that we get down to that level of sort of granular detail, right? Like you were saying, it’s not just the pay. There are all these benefits and other working conditions that can be brought to the table. And like you were saying, I think something that is useful to think about is that when you have a union in place, it sort of brings all the disparate parts of the different departments–for example, like graduate students in different schools and different departments at the university–it brings them to the same like playing field and gets them all the same benefits. And it’s not like there’s going to be this level of pay and benefits over here and this over here. Is that correct?

Departmental Differences in Pay Rates and Raises

12:35 Carly: There was still some difference in pay. So, for example, I worked for the writing program my first few years and we had the lowest hourly pay. It was still way better than what I was getting at Purdue. I think it was something like $22 an hour when I started at UMass, but there was a minimum wage on campus for graduate student work, and we were making that minimum wage. So, if you’re coming from a different department that’s more well-resourced or you know, maybe use this recruiting tool, then you may get paid more. My husband was in the linguistics department and he got paid more than me, and I just was always annoyed about that.

13:15 Emily: So, the union helped establish the minimum wage across the university, which your department said, “Yup, that’s what we pay.” Did the union also negotiate the pay rates at other departments? Or is that just the department saying, “Okay, we see the minimum, but we’re going to be paying more than that?”

13:33 Carly: I think that that’s what other departments would do. I can’t speak specifically to that, but I think that that’s how the disparities–and you know, when I say disparity, it was pretty minimal. It wasn’t a huge difference among the departments–but there was a difference. So that was sometimes annoying to me. But yeah, when they would negotiate raises, it was like a general raise. And so, how that might work out in particular departments might vary.

Additional Experiences with the Union

13:59 Emily: I see. So, aside from just being a student at the university, did you have experience with the union as not just a student?

14:10 Carly: I did. You know, I was already sort of interested in unions and so I was a steward at first, which means that you maybe come with someone to a meeting with their supervisor that they think might be a little bit tricky, and you come and you’re sort of a support person for them. And then I was in the leadership for the graduate student bargaining unit part of our union, because we were part of a–and some people who don’t know, there’s usually a much bigger organization like the United Auto Workers was ours. And then the graduate students at UMass were one shop as they say, one workplace, in that. So, I was in the leadership of that. And then I kind of just kept getting more involved and I volunteered on the joint council, which is where all of the shops, the workplaces, kind of have representation. And then eventually I was on the executive board as the secretary and that’s where you have like the president of the union and this would be over the entire union for us. It was UAW 2322. And so we had, I think there at the end about like 3000 members. So, there was a lot of opportunity to be involved and to meet different people. And so that was an interesting perspective.

15:21 Emily: Yeah. What an interesting opportunity for, maybe not work experience, but volunteer experience that is very professional as part of your graduate experience. Like, yeah.

15:33 Carly: Yeah. I have used a lot of that experience in, you know, my work even now working on committees with people who have extremely different backgrounds than myself. Just collaborating towards a common goal. Most of everything that I did was volunteer-based, but something that people don’t know sometimes is that, if your graduate students are unionized, sometimes there are paid positions within that shop, so to speak. That is a fellowship or assistantship that comes with the pay and benefits, you know, that we’re talking about. So, sometimes people would step into one of those roles out of their teaching fellowship and do one of those leadership roles for a year and then step back into the funding stream of their department, which was really great to have that kind of opportunity.

16:20 Emily: Yeah, that’s kind of some more jobs to go around. I guess.

16:23 Carly: That’s right.

Commercial

16:27 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series as you make changes over the long-term. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part-coaching, part-course, and part-community. You can find out more and join the waitlist for the next time I open the program at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

History of the UMass Amherst Union

17:41 Emily: So, you kind of talked about what your experience was again as a student at UMass. When was the union at UMass Amherst established?

17:50 Carly: This was established in the 1990s, so by the time I was there, it was a really longstanding, well-established union, sometimes even seen as a model for organizing in other places. Around the time I was there, the University of Connecticut organized as well. And so, yeah, there wasn’t a lot of memory of what that was like at first, although I think it was kind of tense, and I believe that the students did go on strike to help create that union. When I was there, when we would bargain every maybe two or three years–I think that’s right–it could get a little bit tense with the relationship in terms of like the bargaining team and the administration. But other than that, usually it was pretty calm. A lot of people didn’t know that we were unionized, which was kind of interesting and a little discouraging. If you’re involved in the union, you’re like, “Hey, you know, this is like this really great thing that’s happening here.” But yeah, so it was interesting.

18:52 Emily: So, while you were in graduate school, it sounds like since there were contracts being renegotiated every two or three years, did you see any changes year over year to those contracts?

19:06 Carly: For sure. So, we always would bargain–I’m now using the word “we” to just being “we the union,” I wasn’t on the bargaining team–but we always negotiated for higher wages. So, it was usually between a 2-3% raise. I’d want people to know that when you’re talking about one and 2%, you’re usually just keeping up with the cost of living. So, we get excited when it’s 2-3%, right? And you’re just getting a little bit higher than that.

19:33 Emily: Is that 2-3% over the two-to-three-year period or is that every year within that period?

19:40 Carly: Yeah, so because it was usually stepped up. So, maybe it would be 1% for the first year and then 2% for the second year, or something like that. And so, you would see gains over cost of living, I guess, is the important point. You know, one thing that people don’t think about sometimes is that if you’re not getting a raise that at least equals cost of living, your employer is paying you less money for the same work. And that’s one of the benefits of the union experience. You start to think in those terms a little bit, which everyone benefits when they’re kind of thinking about that for themselves. I guess the major point I want to make is that it was over the cost of living.

How About Changes in Fees?

20:21 Emily: Yeah. How about the fees? Because I mean, you said already that the fees were at least set up so that you could pay them with each paycheck. But something I’ve seen at other universities is, not only is the pay stagnant, but the fees are increased. The out-of-pocket fees are increasing. Did you see any changes to that fee structure while you were there?

20:43 Carly: I think our fee structure stayed about the same. I don’t remember any major changes with the fees. So, that’s not one thing, but maybe a different example of a gain would be the health insurance difference. So actually, and this is sort of a larger context and other union leaders that you interview can probably corroborate this, but a lot of union work and bargaining is holding onto as much of what you already had as you can because unions are not as powerful as they used to be. And so, usually when you’re bargaining, you’re trying to mitigate something disastrous that the management is doing. They’re usually slashing something and you are using your collective power to mitigate that as much as possible. That’s going to sound really cynical to some folks, but when we’re talking about the benefits side of things, it just is true.

21:33 Carly: So, for example, the insurance turned into kind of a co-insurance the first year I started. So, I don’t remember what it was exactly the year before I started, but I remember that they upped it to like a $5,000 deductible, which was a huge difference from before. And the union over time and a lot of effort was able to cut that to $2,500. That’s half. Right? Still wasn’t as good as it was before, but with the rising costs of health insurance and just unions just being what they are in the U.S. right now, that was what they were kind of able to do. You wouldn’t feel that difference if you don’t have like a major accident or a chronic illness, but for people who are experiencing that, it was a major difference for them.

Any Downsides or Tradeoffs with the Union?

22:20 Emily: Yeah. I appreciate you making the point about it’s not necessarily about seeing gains, like while again just a beneficiary of the contract, but rather you don’t know behind the scenes what is being pushed back against, you know, what changes might have been had there not been some bargaining power there on behalf of the student workers. Were there any downsides or tradeoffs you would say for the union being in place at UMass Amherst?

22:50 Carly: Right. So really the major thing is that you’re going to pay union dues, and depending on what state you live in, that might look different. So when I was at UMass, it was 2% which is something like two hours worth of labor, I think is the way that they figure that. And so there was the option to be an agency fee payer and now we’re kind of getting into the legislation around union membership and that kind of thing. And if you didn’t want to pay the 2%, and you could be an agency fee payer and pay 1.7% because of the laws in effect in Massachusetts at that time. Somewhere like Indiana, you could get away with paying zero, but you’re still covered because you’re in the bargaining unit. You still get all those benefits, anything that they bargain you get. If something terrible happens in your workplace, like you’re sexually harassed, the union is behind you 100% and they do all of the things that they would do for anyone else.

23:48 Carly: But then you’re either not paying the dues, somewhere like Indiana, or you’re paying a smaller amount. And so at UMass Amherst it was 1.7 or 2%. You’d be surprised how many people chose the 1.7. And I understand that because people are thinking, I want as much of my paycheck as possible. But you know, from my perspective it’s like, “Pay the 2% and be a voting member.” That’s kind of changing. There are some changes with legislation around that. I’m actually not sure how long Massachusetts will be able to do that. I think they’re about to go to a system where they can’t require that 1.7% anymore. But so, right. Paying dues. Something that people think about is a potential trade-off would be maybe the attitudes on campus around the union. Do we have an adversarial kind of relationship with the university? And that kind of thing.

24:40 Carly: And not really, I mean, if you’re on the bargaining committee, it could get kind of tense with the administration during that time, as I said before. But being part of the union or being a union member from my experience, didn’t make like my advisor feel differently about me. It didn’t make me seem like a troublemaker, you know. It was just, it was kind of normal because the union had been there so long. If I had been there during like the initial fight, I guess you could say it might be different.

Other Union Groups on Campus

25:09 Emily: Yeah, I can definitely see how that could be the case. But with a union in place for decades, it’s just kind of part of the landscape now. Were there any other union groups on campus? Like adjuncts or faculty or postdocs or staff members, anything like that?

25:23 Carly: Yes. So the postdocs were in the same union with us. They were a different shop, but within the same union. And they were you know, maybe like less active because they were usually on campus for maybe one or two years. The faculty were also unionized, but they were in a different union. The staff were unionized and they were in a different union. And then also I think Massachusetts at that time had legislation where any contract work that they did on campus, like construction, etc., they had to hire union workers or at least there were some incentives to doing that. So, If we marched around with signs about something like the co-insurance issue, we had support from all different directions. And sometimes we would have events and actions, you know, together. But I remember specifically one time marching across campus with a sign and the guys over here on the forklift doing whatever they’re doing construction-wise, like kind of honking and supporting us. So, it was kind of a cool way of being part of a community on your campus as well.

26:24 Emily: I’m really glad to get this picture of an established union for the graduate students and postdocs–or postdocs separately, different shop–but then also just pretty much most people on campus, right? Being part of one union or another. So it’s a very normalized part of the culture. So this is a very, I guess maybe could say like quiescent situation. Like, it’s just this is how things are at that university. So we may hear in other interviews I do in the next few months from some different situations where unionization is a newer concept or maybe only the graduate students are unionized, not other people.

26:56 Carly: Right.

Anything Else About Your Union Experience?

26:56 Emily: I don’t know. So it’s really interesting. I’m really glad to have your perspective there. So, anything else you want to add on this before we wrap up?

27:03 Carly: You know, I would say, just looking back on my time at Purdue, I remember that they made a change with our health insurance benefits once where suddenly like birth control was not going to be covered at all whatsoever. It didn’t matter what your doctor said, if you needed it to live, it doesn’t matter. Right. And I remember being really angry about that and not feeling like I could do anything. If that had happened at UMass Amherst, hell no. That would not have gone without a fight and it probably would have eventually gotten into the contract that that has to be covered. And it was covered. That kind of thing was covered through our insurance. So, you know, just looking back, you think a lot differently, and I feel really grateful that I was part of that and I was actually able to do research and writing, which is what you’re there to do. So, it was great.

27:48 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like your experience at Purdue, versus at UMass, that you were much more supported as like a well-rounded student, I guess you could say. Which is kind of a funny thing to say when we’re talking about unions because we’re really focused on employees, right? Like the important part is that you were an employee of the university and therefore were part of this bargaining unit and so forth. But what I’m thinking of is that you really were supported more as a whole student rather than at Purdue, it sounds like you were treated like you’re a TA. In terms of the relationship between the university and you, that’s what they cared about. You’re serving as a TA, that’s what you’re being paid for, et cetera. Maybe you had other types of relationships with other people there, but in terms of the administration, they saw you as a worker who was just there to perform some task.

Grad Students: When are you Working versus Studying?

28:41 Carly: I see your intuition, totally, but it’s almost the opposite. And let me kind of explain that. So, at Purdue, if there was pushback about something like pay, et cetera, the rationale that the university would give is this is your stipend, this isn’t wages. You’re a student and this is a stipend that you get. Because if they thought about us as workers, then they would have to reckon with what are we getting paid hourly, right? What does that calculate to? And that was some of the rationale against some agitation to unionize while I was there. Actually there was some movement towards that, which is a whole other story. But yeah, that was usually their argument if someone had to complain about something. At UMass, they saw us as workers more than at Purdue, and we benefited from that.

29:31 Carly: But sometimes there was still a little bit of that. If there was something that someone’s complaining about, if they could benefit by seeing you as a student for these purposes and as a worker for these purposes and they could work the system to sort of benefit in certain ways. And usually when we insisted on being seen as workers, that’s when we would usually do the best. So, it’s kind of interesting that you say that because it kind of gets us into the heart of that question is like, when are you working and when are you studying? And I would argue that you really have two jobs. One is the thing that you’re getting your pay and benefits for, and the other thing is your research and writing and thinking. And that’s also your job.

30:09 Carly: And so, if you’re at a place where you’re unionized, you can do both of those jobs. If you’re at a place that isn’t, you may find that you’re only doing one of your jobs because the rest of your time is your side hustle to try to kind of make up for the pace. So, that’s kind of a long-winded way of saying that you’re really hitting at the heart of the question, which is when are you a student? When are you a worker, and why does that matter? What are the implications for that?

30:31 Emily: I’m so glad that we got to that additional level of insight on this. I guess that I was thinking more so, and you brought this up too, is like that the university maybe in a nonunion situation sees that their graduate students are both employees and students, and they’re going to do whatever’s best for them in terms of, do I want to treat you more as a student? Do you want to treat you more as an employee? Well, we’re just going to do whatever is in our best interest. The dual relationship in that case can work against the student worker. Whereas, it sounds like what you’re saying, at least in the case when you have unionized in terms of your work, that is more protected, and then you as an individual can have that protected part of your compensation, your benefits and so forth, be able to enable you to do the other part of your job as you said, which is actually what you’re in grad school to do, like kind of scholarship and your own professional development. Does that sound right?

31:31 Carly: Yep, absolutely.

Financial Advice for Early-Career PhDs

31:32 Emily: Okay. I’m so glad we got there, and so last question as we wrap up, Carly, which is just what I like to ask everyone. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

31:43 Carly: I would say, and this is right from what we were just talking about, which is what you’re doing is work, and it’s labor. And don’t forget that, and think about what it’s worth. And when you’re doing things, think about how is that coming back to you in terms of hourly work. So, thinking about how much time you’re spending on different components of your teaching and your research and your writing, and how is that coming back to you and what’s it worth to you? Sometimes people say don’t do anything for free. Maybe sometimes, but like know what you gave away, right? Know what was the value of that. And it has really helped me think about like my career steps afterwards and thinking about what I’m worth and what I want. So yeah, what you’re doing is work. It is.

32:32 Emily: Well, thank you so much for this interview, Carly. I really enjoyed speaking with you about this really sort of topical and timely issue in getting your perspective from those two different institutions you’ve been part of. So thank you.

32:46 Carly: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

Outtro

32:49 Emily: Well, listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Higher Ed Career Coach Worked Her Way Out of Financial Ruin Caused by the Great Recession

November 4, 2019 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Beth Moser, a certified career coach specializing in higher education clients pursuing career change. Beth was All But Dissertation and pregnant with her first child when the Great Recession hit Phoenix and she was laid off from her museum job, so she and her husband lived on his graduate student stipend and the money she earned from odd jobs. Their home also lost enough value so as to go underwater, which tied them to Phoenix long-term while the value recovered. These events brought them to “financial ruin,” and they spent the next several years digging themselves out of that hole. Beth and her husband pursued several strategies to improve their finances over the coming years, including a career change for Beth, slashing household expenses, better financial management, and working with a financial advisor. Beth concludes with excellent money mindset advice for younger PhD trainees. You can find Beth at Academics at Work.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Beth: I don’t have a dime to save. What are you talking about? There’s no point. And now I’m like, now having seen the power of stashing away $5 here, $10 there over time. I’m like, huh, what actually could I have saved? What might have been?

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode 12, and today my guest is Beth Moser, a certified career coach and the founder of Academics at Work. Beth was ABD (all but dissertation), married to another grad student, and pregnant with their first child when the great recession hit Phoenix. She was laid off from her museum job at the same time their house went underwater, which brought them to what she calls “financial ruin.” Beth and her husband lived on his graduate student stipend and the money she earned from odd jobs while she reevaluated and eventually changed her career objectives. To climb out of that hole, they slashed their household expenses, implemented basic and advanced budgeting techniques, and worked with a financial advisor. Listen through the end of the episode to hear Beth’s excellent advice for PhD trainees regarding money mindset. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Beth Moser.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:26 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Beth Moser who has, well, quite a story for us, quite a financial story from her own personal life relating to her family and pursuing a PhD and having children and the great recession. So I’m really excited to dive into this story. Beth, would you please introduce yourself to us a little bit further? Tell us about your family and your career to date.

01:51 Beth: Sure. Thank you so much for having me, Emily. So my name is Beth Moser. I’m a certified career coach and I specialize in coaching higher ed clients who need career change. As part of that, I am a training manager who does professional development workshops for graduate colleges, for graduate students, postdocs and faculty on why they need to be incorporating this into their own lives and into their curricula. So I work in higher ed as well. I am married, I have a spouse who is an academic, and I have two children. But when this financial journey that we’re going to be talking about today started, I didn’t have children. So that was some time ago. And I live here in Tempe, Arizona.

What Led to Your “Financial Ruin”?

02:48 Emily: Yeah. Excellent. So let’s go back because what we’re going to be talking through here is kind of a perfect storm of events that brought you to–what you described to me when we talked for this episode–you described this to me as “financial ruin.” A sequence of events that brought you and your husband and your family to financial ruin in the midst of, you know, pursuing degrees and so forth. So, let’s find out what that was. What was the sequence of events here?

03:20 Beth: Sure. Yes, so some of this is unique to us and our circumstances and the timing. And some of it I think a lot of your listeners and readers can relate to. So, I went to get my PhD to go into what’s called an alternative academic or “alt-ac” career. I went to get my PhD so I could get a job in museums. And so, when I came out of working through my coursework and was in the midst of my dissertation, I landed a full-time job in the museum’s field, which was my ultimate goal. As you might surmise, it’s not a very well-paying field. Museums are of course, nonprofits. And so, when I started my first full-time job in 2006, I was making about $36,000 a year with no benefits. So, when I went to work full-time, my husband and I switched off.

04:25 Beth: He had wanted to get his PhD as well. So, since I had landed a full-time job and my career, he quit his full-time job to go start his PhD program. So, he got a stipend of making about $12,000 a year. So, total, I mean, for the two of us, for a single couple in their thirties, we were making about $48,000 a year in the Phoenix metropolitan area. So, not great, but not horrible either, especially when you’re considering we didn’t have children at that time when we moved here. For his PhD program, we bought a home because we thought, you know, well we can and that will keep our costs lower than rent. And so, we were fortunate in that respect, at least at the start. So, for the first three years of my full time career, I was not making more than about $36,000 a year.

05:26 Beth: But within three years with position increases and promotions, I eventually was making $50,000 a year plus benefits. I finally was making benefits, but that’s the first time. In my mid-thirties was the first time I started getting any employer retirement plan of any sort, including any employer match of any kind. So, I got started on saving for retirement relatively late into my career. Okay. So, in the midst of that I finally got pregnant. We had wanted to have children. I was three months pregnant when the recession had started hitting and I got laid off from the museum that I was working on. At that time, we spent four months surviving only on my husband’s graduate school stipend and me taking odd jobs here and there. You know, babysitting, working an office job for people for, you know, 12 bucks an hour, but nothing steady.

Aftereffects of the Great Recession in Pheonix, AZ

06:31 Beth: And then, when I was seven months pregnant, I finally landed a full-time benefits-eligible permanent job at a higher ed institution. But I only had two months of paychecks there before I gave birth and then had eight weeks of unpaid leave. So, during that summer in 2011, you know, we had already had three months of me not having an income. Of us surviving on my husband’s pretty paltry stipend, and then having the enormous cost of diapers and you know, cribs and strollers and car seats and all of that with no income on my part. So, in the midst of all of that, our lives were changing financially. They were changing personally. They were changing in ways big and small. In ways that were amazing and incredible, but also incredibly challenging as you can imagine. So, what finally led to what I call financial ruin is the aftereffects of the recession hit particularly hard here in the Phoenix area, and the home that we were living in lost over 50% of its value.

07:48 Beth: So we could not consider moving to downsize our living expenses because we were what’s called “underwater.” That meant that our home was worth far more than what we owed on it. And we did not qualify for state or federal programs to offset that or alleviate that to get out from under that because we were, and this is a great irony, too far underwater to qualify for that program to help us. So we found ourselves, you know, in the first year of our first child’s life, really relying on credit cards, unfortunately, relying on piecing together unemployment in odd jobs for several months, falling behind on monthly bills, and then finally starting to catch up once I was back at work full-time after parental leave. But it was really, really difficult to climb out of that over the next several years. So, that’s what I wanted to talk with you about today.

08:56 Emily: Yeah. Beth, thank you so much for that introduction. Oh man, it’s taken me back. I didn’t personally experience hardship during the great recession, but it’s taken me back to all the media coverage and everything because I was very involved in the personal finance, you know, sphere at that time. Just a terrible situation that so many people were in. You were not alone in being so far underwater, especially in your particular area. And wow, I’m really glad to have the opportunity to talk with you to get the second half that story. Right? Because we know that so many families were hit so hard by the recession. And of course with you personally, it ended up coinciding with, as you said, a wonderful time of life but also a particularly challenging time of life, especially financially challenging that is having your first child. So, I’m really glad to hear how you ended up climbing out of that because I think that’s the part of the story that we don’t hear so much. And especially how, you know, you did that as a person who was in higher ed, is working in higher ed and also your husband still pursuing his PhD at the time that we’re, you know, picking this up. Is that right?

09:57 Beth: Yes.

Strategies for Financial Recovery

09:58 Emily: Yeah. So, thank you so much for sharing that with us. So, okay. The strategies that you were using to climb out of the financial ruin and it’s taken, what, we’re going on eight years, it sounds like? Since this point you identify as like the low point?

10:12 Beth: Right.

Recovery Strategy #1/4: Increasing Income

10:13 Emily: So, it’s been quite a while. You’ve probably tried a lot of different things. So, we’re going to break down your strategies into three main categories and then kind of a catch-all. And so, the first one there is regarding increasing income. So, how did you do that? Aside from, as you just said, you landed a job. You actually weren’t out of work for too long, relatively, that’s not so bad. So, aside from that, again, a full-time job with full-time pay, what else were you two doing to increase your income?

10:41 Beth: So, when I was laid off from museums, I decided that that was the end of that career, unfortunately. I mean, that had been the goal of me going to graduate school. That had been the focus of my dissertation work. It was my passion. But when reality hits you, and especially when your life changes and your marriage becomes more of a priority or your partnership and having a family or children and other things outside of yourself that you have to consider financially, it just became really real that it was time for me to grow up, perhaps. I don’t really like to use that phrase, but to really get real with myself about what my financial needs were and what ours were in providing for, you know, a tiny child who was going to grow over the course of our lifetime. So, strategy number one was to accept and work through that difficult decision to close down one career and change directions.

Recovery Strategy #2/4: Decreasing Household Expenses

11:47 Beth: So, that helped me prioritize. I need something that pays at least a livable wage for myself and has great benefits including retirement plans and matching and of course, great health insurance in order to just, you know, close that chapter and move forward. So I targeted my job search exclusively to sectors and employers where my skills would transfer, but that was my priority. Finding employers that would pay a much better wage and that would provide those benefits. So, that was strategy number one in increasing my income: being really targeted with what sectors I was applying for and networking in and going after. The second strategy was to decrease our household expenses. Now, as I alluded to, we weren’t able to decrease our housing expenses. So, while our neighbors were scooping up the exact quality of homes at literally 50% of what we were paying for our mortgage monthly, we could not address that one. We tried to qualify for a program, a HARP program was what it was called and we didn’t. So, that was a fixed expense.

Did You Consider Taking the Foreclosure Hit?

13:11 Emily: I want to jump in there with a question because I do remember at the time a lot of people were walking away from their homes that were too far underwater, taking the foreclosure hit to their credit and just saying it’s too far gone. So you guys didn’t go that route. Did you think about it?

13:25 Beth: I did think about it and I consulted with others who had done it and people who had not done it. I decided not to do it because I held my credit score tightly at value. So I knew that we were going to come out of this someday (our financial circumstances). And I didn’t want to also have to tackle just a really horrible credit score because that can take years to repair as well.

13:52 Emily: Yeah, it sounded like it didn’t get to the point where you had to walk away. There may have been a point that it could have gone that direction, but because it sounded like you did an amazing job searching for and networking for the new job, it didn’t get to that point where it was a necessity.

14:07 Beth: Correct. Yes. And so, we sat down and we looked at what can we downsize on as far as our monthly expenses. So, we went down to sharing one vehicle. That way we didn’t have to carry insurance on the other car. We wouldn’t have gas expenses on the other car. We live within walking distance to grocery stores and coffee shops and so forth. So, we started walking to the grocery store decreasing mileage and usage of our vehicle and gas expenses. So, we would coordinate going to and from work together so that we had that only one vehicle expense. We used my husband’s vehicle because he did not have to pay for parking at his work, but I did at mine. So, he would drop me off, drive off to his job, park for free. He would come back and get me at the end of the day.

15:09 Beth: And then we really cut down on all like entertainment expenses. We got really lean and mean about it. So we dropped streaming services of all types. We didn’t even have the Netflix DVD service, which existed back in that day still. We didn’t do any movie rentals. We wouldn’t go out to movies. We cut down on eating out. And I mean, like by cut down, I mean, we did not do it. So, we got really disciplined about what expenses are necessary and which ones would be nice to have again in the future, but that we can’t afford right now. We made huge use of our libraries. We would rent DVDs and movies and streaming there all the time. But it just meant that we did not have the luxury of having, you know, just flip on the TV and whatever’s on tonight is what we’re going to be able to watch.

Decreasing Expenses while Starting a Family

16:05 Emily: How did this effort in decreasing expenses play with you having a baby for the first time? Because I think there’s an idea in our culture that babies need a lot of stuff and you have to provide a level of care for children. I don’t know. So, how were you handling applying the decreasing expenses mindset to your first baby?

16:30 Beth: So, one of the things that we did was I sat down with women friends of mine who had recently had babies and said, okay, you know, you go to the baby websites and you go to the stores and they give you this like, you know, flip book of all the things you need. Okay. What are the absolute essentials that I must have? And so for instance, people were saying, okay, yes, they’re going to tell you you need a pack and play. But really here’s my bassinet. My baby doesn’t even fit in it anymore. Use it for the first three months. And then when she needs to grow into a crib, we can go, you know, get you a crib at Target or whatever. You don’t need, you know, this, that or the other. You don’t need toys yet. She’s too little.

17:19 Beth: So it really helped me focus in on like: these are the absolute bare bones essentials that you need to have a baby. And just having, you know, that critical mindset about what we consume. Right? And I mean, if you think about it from the “this is a first-world problem” perspective. Like thinking about, okay, well families who live in tiny apartments in giant cities around the world or in smaller, more humble circumstances, they don’t need these things for their babies and their babies grow up healthy and beautiful too. So, just really being critical about the buying, what we could borrow from friends. Using secondhand stores for buying baby onesies and that sort of thing. And then luckily I was able to nurse so I didn’t have the expense of formula. I say, luckily I was able to, because there’s also this cultural presumption that, “just nurse and you’ll be fine.” But that is not always an expense that can be eliminated. I know many women who have been either physically unable to nurse or their baby can’t nurse and formula is no joke. It is really expensive. So, I do recognize that that was something we lucked out on.

18:38 Emily: Yeah. Thanks for those comments. I want to jump in here with some comments of my own as I have two children that are fairly young. So, it’s a recent thing for me. The first is, this is kind of weird, but my husband and I watched the documentary, which was available on Netflix, maybe it still is called “Babies.” It’s like a no-narration documentary just following these four babies in different countries through their first years of life. And so, it’s a really fun, funny kind of documentary. But what we took away from that is babies thrive in all kinds of different situations. Like, they’re good, they’re gonna develop, no matter if you have this, you know, doodad or this gadget or you do this thing this way or that way. You know, babies are very adaptable and, you know, robust and so it’s going to be fine.

Any Other Strategies to Decrease Expenses?

19:23 Emily: You know, no matter what you choose, it’s going to be okay. So, we enjoyed that and I’d recommend that to someone who is looking forward to becoming a parent. I really liked what you did in talking with multiple, other new mothers or recent mothers or recent parents to get their perspectives on what you actually need. I say multiple because babies are also very individual. And so, what was essential to one parent might not have been essential to another parent, might not be essential to you. And so it’s great to get an idea of from several different people. “Okay, that one person said that one thing was essential, but I didn’t hear that from, you know, so and so and so and so. So maybe I’ll hold off on that.” And I just think the idea of, as you said, like babies don’t need all the stuff from their first two years of life upon their birth. Right? You can acquire these things slowly as you determine that they actually make sense for you. So, it doesn’t have to be a buying binge like right at the beginning. So, Please continue on. Were there any other ways that you decreased your expenses during that period?

20:23 Beth: I mean that was the main thing, the main categories. We couldn’t, you know, decrease utilities or we couldn’t drop Wi-Fi. So those were the main things, like any entertainment sort of things. And then the other thing, you touched upon this earlier, are these like cultural messages that we receive as new parents. And one of the big ones especially that I see is like date night and how important it is to remain committed to your partner. Yes, that is of course important. But for the first six months of your baby’s life, you are so tired that even if someone had come and offered us date night, we would have been like, where’s the closest place where we can go take a nap? You know, so that was not something that we had any interest in spending money on anyway. But we really didn’t use a sitter. We didn’t go out for that sort of thing, honestly, for the first year at all. I mean for like birthday dinner out or something like that, we had a friend watch the baby. We would trade off and say like, “Hey, the baby’s very calm during mornings, so let’s go out and have a leisurely brunch together and bring the baby.” Right? Like you don’t have to buy into this messaging about how much children have to cost.

21:46 Emily: Yeah. Great, great point.

Commercial

21:51 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series as you make changes over the longterm. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part-coaching, part-course, and part-community. You can find out more and join the waitlist for the next time I open the program at pfforphds/wealthyphd. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Recovery Strategy #3/4: Sticking to a Budget

23:06 Emily: Okay, so the third kind of category that we want to talk about is financial strategies or financial management. So what, aside from increasing income and decreasing expenses, could you do with your finances to help you through this period?

23:19 Beth: Okay. So, one of the things that we did was, and this is not going to be eye-opening to you, but it really was to us, was to finally follow the adulting advice of creating and sticking to a budget. I know how insane that sounds for people in their thirties to finally like “adult up” and sit down with an Excel spreadsheet and say okay, how much is Wi-Fi, how much is our utilities, how much is our car insurance, how much is our mortgage? But we started looking at that and sticking to it. So, that was first and foremost was getting real about these are our expenses.

24:07 Beth: Burying your head in the sand and pretending like, “Oh, you mean I have to pay my cell phone bill every month?” That’s not a viable strategy. So, actually facing the reality and the facts was another strategy that really helped us. You know, I think as academics in particular, you get a lot of messaging and a lot of training in your self-worth and therefore perhaps your, you know, financial value being wrapped up in your job title and what you tell people you do. But you cannot ignore the financial realities of what you have to provide for yourself and your family. And I don’t think there’s enough about that in graduate school for any of us. And I think for those of us who aren’t in graduate school in MBA programs or accounting or finance, like it’s just, you know, sort of back of the mind consideration. And so we finally decided to get real about that.

25:12 Emily: Yup. Classic advice, but always perennially good. And I kind of feel like, I guess I feel like some people can get away without budgeting if they make a lot of money or if they have very, very, very, very, very simple lives and simple desires. But 97% of the population I feel like would benefit from keeping a regular budget. So, it sounded like it took you a little bit longer to get there, but when the need was high enough, you did and you found it to be a useful tool.

Maintaining Your Budget for Continued Savings

25:44 Beth: Yes. And so, one of the ways we use that tool was even as we started to catch up on the backlog of expenses that we had been tacking onto credit cards out of necessity. So, we started to tackle debt. But then as my income rose over several years–because I stayed in this full-time role, I found a new career, I was doing good work, so I was getting promotions and increases over time–we maintained our budget. So, we could use that extra income not to like restore all the streaming services, and sign back up for the premium whatever, and start doing date night once a month, but to focus on getting rid of that debt and then start to tack away even tiny amounts for savings.

26:35 Emily: Yeah, you really had a large hole that you had to dig yourselves out of first before you could even consider increasing things on the lifestyle side. And again this is not, I mean, none of this was like your fault, right? Like this is all just what happened like nationally and in your housing market in particular that caused this. And I’m sure that, you know, it took so many years of sacrifice to do this and it must be frustrating that like you were kind of just generally a victim of what was going on, like more generally. So anyway, it must have been frustrating and difficult, but I really admire that you stuck at it and you stuck with it for so many years to ultimately get ahead.

The Benefits of a Financial Manager

27:14 Beth: Yeah. And so, one thing we did was we decided to add on one strategic expense and it was a huge expense to us at the time, but we met with a financial manager two times. So, I can’t quote this for sure, but I believe each session–I know each session was an hour–but I believe it was $150 an hour. And that was a huge add on for us at the time. But the knowledge and the toolkit that we came away with like has paid off in spades for years to come. So one of the things she did was she took our budget and she tried to convince us–and the first session, it was a little hard for us to hear this–that we did have spare room in our budget to start saving. And we were like, no, we really don’t.

28:10 Beth: But she actually did the math and she did some forecasting with us and she showed us that if you make your savings automatic and you start putting that away before you can even see it in your checking account so it’s not there for you to spend or consider spending, then you can honestly start to build up savings. And so she taught us about, we used a tool called Capital One 360. It’s an online bank and within that particular bank it’s free to set up an account and you can set up as many accounts as you need. So we set one up, for instance, for future child activities, like day camps during the summer or sports lessons or whatever. We set up one for travel with, I mean, we weren’t traveling at the time, but we were like, “Hey, maybe we’re going to want to take a big beach vacation, a weekend trip to San Diego one of these days.”

29:10 Beth: So we set up these little goal buckets in Capital One. And I’m telling you, like five bucks out of that paycheck and 10 bucks out of this paycheck, and what seems like a coffee here or a lunch there. Really small amounts. We were so skeptical that this strategy was going to work, but she had seen it work before and she had the expertise to back it up. So we said, we’ll give it a shot. And I have been continuously blown away by this, and I still use it to this day. So, within our first year of trying this, even with our really modest higher ed incomes–and my husband had finished his graduate school programming at that time but was on the job market, which as we know is problematic. So he was adjuncting only so we were not living large.

30:04 Beth: We were not high on the hog. We had climbed out of this debt and so forth, but we were not like, you know, going on extravagant vacations or anything like that–but in the first year we were able to save about $5,000. And then the second year, $10,000 on top of that. So, it completely blew me away that like five bucks here, 10 bucks there. Oh, I have a few extra dollars left over from grocery shopping. Okay. Tuck that away. We’re actually going to go put that in the ATM and transfer it over to the Capital One 360 funds and then we’re not going to touch those funds. They’re there for those goals. Just leave it and forget it. And they’re not making huge interest. Right? Like we are not talking about anything more than the interest rate you’d get at your bank or credit union. So, it’s not like this is some investment strategy. It’s literally just set it and forget it but don’t touch it. So that was a huge eye-opener for us.

Financial Advising Tip #1: Targeted Savings Accounts

31:08 Emily: I really love that you brought up this strategy because it’s one of my favorite ones. Especially for, you know, grad students and postdocs, people with lower cashflows, but I talk about this very, very frequently. I call it targeted savings accounts. Other people call it sinking funds. I’m not sure what term your advisor used, but it’s exactly what you described. Putting away a small savings rate with every single pay period. And then pulling the money back out when you have those, you know, a reason for it. If you want to take a trip or maybe you have car repairs or whatever the buckets are that you’ve set up. I also have seen this work in my own life and other people’s lives. And it is amazing that there’s actually a difference between saving in theory and saving in reality.

31:51 Emily: Like you might tell yourself, “I never have money, you know, I never have $5, $10 leftover at the end of the month. How could I possibly be saving anything?” Or like, “Oh yeah, I’m saving but my savings are just sitting in my checking account and oops, I actually kind of spend them from time to time without thinking about it.” It’s amazing what a difference it makes to actually sequester the money away from your general cashflow. And I really love that you particularly use Capital One 360. My husband and I currently bank with Ally, which has the same kind of structure, but I used to bank with Capital One 360 and it was totally great and you know, no big reason for the change, but I also set up targeted savings funds there. So, if anyone’s looking to implement this strategy, using an online bank like Capital One 360 or Ally is a really good choice because some of the larger brick and mortar banks might charge you fees for having accounts open or maybe they’ll charge you a fee if your balance drops below a certain amount.

32:45 Emily: And when we’re talking about these accounts, the balance might be $5. That’s all that might be in there at one point or another when you’re starting out or if you’ve just depleted it. So, it’s really important to have an account that has no minimums, and Ally and Capital One 360 both offer those kinds of accounts. So, really good tip to check those out. In particular, if you like this strategy, and I’ll link in the show notes some more writing I’ve done about this strategy. But thank you so much for describing it Beth.

Financial Advising Tip #2: Use Cash for Day-to-Day Expenses

33:09 Beth: Yeah, I mean it’s been huge for us. So, the other strategy that our financial advisor had us use was to use cash for all of our day-to-day expenses. And I’m not talking about the complicated, here’s the envelope for groceries and here’s the envelope for eating out and like figure all of that. No, just take a lump sum of cash out of each paycheck. And it sounds like a lot, like maybe it’s $400, maybe it’s $800. That, you would have to consult with somebody on, but use it for all your groceries, your cleaning supplies, your coffee shop runs, your lunches out, the beer happy hour after work, whatever it is. And the reason for that is, for whatever psychological reason, whatever behavioral economists call this, you really do think twice about that purchase when you’re using cash, much more than you would with your debit card. So, it has been incredibly powerful and honestly, I get a charge now at the end of every two-week pay cycle where I’m like, “Haha, I still have 40 bucks left over, and I’m actually going to shove that into my Capital One 360, because I actually do want to do like a trip to Denver next year and go have some amazing food and beer. And that’s going to be way more fun for me than using this 40 bucks to go out to lunch a couple of times this week.”

34:39 Emily: What I really love is with your leftover money that you saved it. You weren’t like, “Oh, leftover money. Yeah, great. I’m going to blow it. Like it’s already been accounted for.” You’re like, “No, I’m actually weighing like should I use it for this purpose in the here and now or should I use it for this purpose? Maybe it’s a longer term thing that I’m saving for.” And sounds like much of the time you said, “Nope, I have this other goal, I know exactly where this money is going to go, it’s going to give me more pleasure, more satisfaction to put it over here. Even though it’s, you know, saving in the meantime but it’s saving to spend in the short term.” So, I really love that you actually followed through on that because that’s the part that a lot of people don’t do is the last final step of actually saving the money that they have available to save.

Recovery Strategy #4/4: Research Your Resources

35:18 Beth: Yup. And the final strategy, which I’ll just touch on briefly, is it’s a lot of hard work and it’s a lot of discipline, and that can get tiring over time, but it pays off. So for instance, in 2013 when we had our second child, okay, childcare expenses are about to skyrocket. Like you wouldn’t believe. Well, okay, so let’s take the time and do a lot of research and homework and find a childcare share situation. So for that, we were able to find a place that during the academic year we had part-time childcare and we could take summers off but still hold our place for the next academic year. So that way during summers when my husband was adjuncting only online courses, he would watch the children at no childcare expense to us. So, it’s really hard to find that sort of circumstance, but you might have something equivalent in your life that it’s going be hard to find, but it’s going to be worth the effort to find.

Were There Any Other Strategies You Used?

36:23 Emily: Yeah, it just shows the creativity and the resource in terms of the time you were willing to put into researching certain things is not easy, as you said. But when you can apply those things, you can come up with financially pretty frugal solutions that still work for you. Okay. Were there any other strategies you want to get to that you were using during the period of those years?

Curate Social Media Exposure, Find Your Support System

36:47 Beth: I think a lot of it was trying as much as possible to curate what we looked at and saw. So like staying off of some social media sites where everybody’s flaunting their amazing vacations and you’re like, “Oh, I’m missing out on that.” Or you know, I started reading a blog for instance, about a woman who decided to see how much she could save by bringing her lunch to work every single day for an entire year. So just seeking out where you could that support system, whether it’s virtual or in real life, being really mindful about not going to those after-work happy hours where you know, “Okay, sure. One beer. Well, now I’m hungry, I’m also going to get an appetizer.” So really just being mindful about surrounding yourself with the support system you need to stay on track.

37:45 Emily: Yeah, and I think within an academic setting, I would imagine you can find those other people. Those frugal friends, the classmates who are living on the same kind of income that you are. I’m sure you can find other people who are living above their means in some way or another. So it’s not necessarily everyone in that setting, but you can definitely find that support system. And I did, I know during graduate school because I happened to be very open about talking about money. Other people who were open to talking about money realized that about me and we became friends around that common interest, I would say. So they exist. You might have to sniff them out, but the support systems do exist. Okay. Beth, I think we’ve gotten through the strategies you used to recover from the financial ruin on as you’ve been doing over those several years and since then. So, is there any advice that you would give your past self? You know, anything that you wish you had considered or wish you could have done differently during that time? Given that again, a lot of these forces were completely out of your control.

Final Financial Advice to Oneself

38:49 Beth: Yes. Yeah. So yes, I have two really key takeaways that I wish my younger self would have known. The first one is I wish I had had the ability to more critically consider my future financial needs when it came to choosing a career. So my initial career I was dead set on working in museums and even knowing the realities of the job market and the pay and, you know, how long it takes to get a livable wage in that industry with benefits. I still chose to do it. And it’s not that I regret that at all. It was an amazing experience. But if I could have somehow talked myself into considering like, “Hey, you probably do want to get married someday, you probably do want children. It may be that you’re going to have changes in your life that shift around your personal priorities and some of those are going to cost a lot of money.” I wish that I could have taken that into consideration when making my career choice more deliberately and not tossed finances to the wind as if like, “Well, you know, we’ll figure out how to make it work with whatever this industry pays.”

40:07 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you were forced to do that, right? When you were laid off from your museum job and you totally did this reevaluation and had gotten to your new career path. That was when it had happened, but maybe you could’ve done that a little bit earlier. And if you go to the show notes, I’ll link from this episode a whole other discussion I had in season three, I believe it was episode six with Scott Kennedy. And we talked again about that same subject of how the reality of “he wanted to have a family, have children” and how did that affect his career decisions in terms of which career paths will pay enough to support a family versus others. Because there are plenty of things you can do because you have a great passion for it that might support a single person but probably not a family. So in that episode, he also grappled with the tough thing of closing a door to a career path that was very attractive to him and turning to something that was also attractive but going to pay quite a bit better. So thank you for that point. What was the other one you wanted to make?

Learn to Critically Examine Your Self-Talk

41:10 Beth: So the second is I would tell my younger self to really hear what you tell yourself and that are truths and beliefs that you have about your money. Because they may not turn out to be true at all. That is the case in my instance. So now, you know, knowing how much I’ve been able to save by this sort of, I forget the term that you use, but this automatic savings out of my paycheck into these Capital One 360 accounts. I wish I had tried that a long time ago. Because I’m sure–in fact I know–I was telling myself in my twenties and before all of this happened, like “I don’t have a dime to save. What are you talking about? There’s no point.” And now I’m like, now having seen the power of stashing away $5 here, $10 there over time, I’m like, “huh, what actually could I have saved? What might have been?” So I really wish I had been able to critically examine that self-talk.

42:17 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for making that point. And I think it’s a really common one among graduate students or PhD trainees in general. You know, “I’m meant to be living close to the bone during these years. I’m not meant to be paying off debt. I’m not meant to be saving. I’m not meant to be investing.” That’s a story that academia tells us. Is it actually true? For some people it is. They definitely don’t make enough money to do anything else. Other people, it is possible. So it’s more of a matter of what are your priorities. So thank you so much for bringing that up. And as we wrap up here Beth, could you tell us a little bit more about your business and how people can find you?

Beth’s Website: Academics at Work

42:52 Beth: Yeah, thanks, Emily. So I’m a career coach. You can find me at academicsatwork.com. I have a blog there where I share all kinds of tips about changing careers or making the one that you’re working at now thriving in that to advance and what you need to think through in terms of networking, your resume, your cover letter and career-changing. And aligning your career with your needs, which change over time. So that’s where you can find me. You can also reach me at [email protected]. And I really, really appreciate your blog, Emily. I have started nerding out about paying more attention to my finances as a result of this, you know, climbing out of this hole that I had. And so that’s how I found your blog. And I just think it’s such an incredible tool that everyone should know about and be using. So I’m so glad you’re doing this podcast. You’ve got the blog. And I really appreciate you having me today.

43:52 Emily: Aw, thank you so much for saying that Beth. And I’m really glad that we got to hear your origin story, kind of view yourself as your first client in terms of a career coach and how that worked out for you. It’s clear that you made that transition very well and rather quickly, finding another job within only three months. So I’m excited to see more about what you do for other people now that that’s your business. So again, thank you so much for joining me and it was really a pleasure to talk with you.

44:17 Beth: Thank you so much!

Outtro

44:19 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Behavioral Finance Expert Gives Incredible Career and Financial Advice to PhDs

October 28, 2019 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Daniel Crosby, an author and expert in behavioral finance. Upon completing his PhD in clinical psychology, Daniel realized for the first time that an academic salary would not afford him the lifestyle he wanted. He instead pivoted to translating the academic research in behavioral finance for working financial advisors, and he currently serves as the Chief Behavioral Officer for Brinker Capital. Daniel shares how he’s applied the principles of behavioral finance in his own life and specific career and financial advice for early-career PhDs, particularly those exiting PhD training.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

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- The Laws of Wealth
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Teaser

00:00 Daniel: And rather than saying, “Oh, I’m a PhD in psychology, so let me do PhD in psychology things”, I thought, well, I know to have great conversations with people. I know how to run a training. I know how to read human emotion and human behavior and all of these things, when you conceive of them as building blocks, you can repurpose those building blocks in different ways and create a host of opportunities for yourself.

Introduction

00:34 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode eleven and today my guest is Dr. Daniel Crosby, an author and expert in behavioral finance. Upon completing his PhD in clinical psychology, Daniel realized, for the first time, that an academic salary would not afford him the lifestyle he wanted, so he pivoted to translating the academic research in payroll finance for working financial advisors. Daniel shares how he’s applied the principles of behavioral finance in his own life and gives specific career and financial advice and encouragement for early career PhDs, particularly those about to finish their PhD training. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Daniel Crosby.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:23 Emily: I have the pleasure today of hosting Dr. Daniel Crosby on the podcast. He is a certified expert in behavioral finance. I’m really, really pleased that he agreed to come on. And Daniel, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further and tell the listeners about the fantastic career you’ve had?

01:41 Daniel: Great to be here. Thank you for having me. I am the chief behavioral officer at Brinker Capital, which is a multibillion dollar asset manager based outside of Philly. There’s not many chief behavioral officers in the world, I guess, so by way of explanation, what I do is I create training, tools, and technology that help people make better decisions with their money. I am a clinical psychologist by education, but really haven’t spent any of my professional career in a clinical setting. I quickly learned in grad school that I loved thinking deeply about why people do the things they do, but I didn’t love working in a medical setting. I’ve looked for business applications of the thing that I studied, and I know you know what it’s like to pivot, so my career has been wild and crazy, but it’s been a great one.

Going from Psychology PhD to Chief Behavioral Officer

02:39 Emily: Can you take us back? Tell us more about your education and at what point you decided that you weren’t actually going to go that traditional, clinical route with your degrees?

02:50 Daniel: My undergrad was in psychology. Loved it. I’m the son of a financial advisor, so I went into school thinking I would study finance and be a financial advisor. Took some general ed courses in psychology and just absolutely fell in love, knew that that’s what I wanted to do, started my PhD three days after I finished my bachelor’s. I was really just on a good path to get going with this. But about three years into my doctoral program, I had just kind of had enough. I don’t think I’m wired to listen to 40 hours a week of heavy stuff. It’s hard to be that empathetic. It’s hard to not let that bleed into your own life and your own wellness, and I was just really taking my client’s problems home with me, candidly. And I said, you know, this is just a lot. The final nail in the coffin for me though, I was still sort of on the fence as I was wrapping up my PhD, I had an inkling that I would like to apply this in a business setting, but wasn’t quite sure how, so I interviewed for a dual appointment position at a local university, which would have been half teaching, half counseling and the pay was so bad. I got offered the job and the pay was just so ridiculously bad that when I sat down and did the math with my wife, I was just, there’s no way this can work. I think it’s instructive that I, as the son of a financial advisor, someone who is interested in finance, finished an entire PhD, kind of never doing the math on how the thing I was studying would put food on my table. That’s sort of an embarrassing, but true story, is to get to the end of this road that I was passionate about and then go, “Oh, well geez, what am I going to do with this?” So then I was sort of left scrambling with how can I actually make a living at this thing I’ve just spent eight years studying.

05:05 Emily: I think that’s going to be a very relatable story to a lot of people in the audience of hearing that advice, follow your passion and doing it, and doing it at a high level, and getting to the end of it and saying, “well, now what do I do?” In your case, it was because the dual position that you applied for was not attractive, financially. That could be the reason, certainly for people in the audience, why they don’t continue on the expected career path. But for many people who want to go into academia, it’s just that the jobs aren’t there. That’s the main problem is that there’s just no jobs to be had or very, very few, and so they end up having to look elsewhere. So super, super relatable story there. Would you mind me asking, was your graduate degree, did you go into debt for that or was that paid for, was it a combination?

05:52 Daniel: It was paid for. PhD programs in psychology are very selective, they’re very small, so there were only like five people in my cohort. If you get in, it’s paid for through assistantships. Then, through nothing but luck, I had parents who were in a position to support me in other ways. My parents kept the food on the table and a roof over my head, and the tuition itself was paid for, so I came out with no debt.

06:26 Emily: I see. So when you were sitting down to do that salary calculation, it wasn’t debt that was necessarily causing your initial needed number to rise, but rather just simply the cost of living and supporting your family and so forth.

06:39 Daniel: Yeah. It wasn’t debt. It was just like, “wow, I’m going to work forever.” It was crazy because it paid less than a kindergarten teacher. You go teach at a high level, at a college, go to all this school and you should have just taught first grade. The pay was much better, if you can believe it, and I think you probably can. That was just a shock to me. I had never really put pen to paper about how the jobs that were available to me would coincide with the kind of life I wanted to live. Then the other thing is, as you said, so many of the jobs — I was lucky to get a job offer in my hometown — but you know, many, many times you’re forced to move to someplace you don’t want to live or somewhere very out of the way to start your career. And that’s its own set of trade-offs, certainly.

07:34 Emily: When you decided, “okay, that’s not a viable route over there, I have to pivot and do something else,” ten or so years later, you’ve come to this point where you’re the chief behavioral officer somewhere.

What is Behavior Finance?

Emily: I want to hear more about what behavioral finance is and did that exist as a field when you came out or have you been part of developing that? What’s been the transition both for your career and also for that field over that time?

08:00 Daniel: Great question. I got out and I said, “look, I need to pivot to something that is a little better for my sanity and is also a little better paying.” I began to explore jobs in organizational behavior, organizational psychology, behavioral economics, behavioral finance, and really, no one would take a chance on me because this is 2008 and the economy’s not exactly fantastic. I’m out there, 29 years old looking, looking for a job and I’m applying for jobs in fields where I candidly have no experience, because I have this PhD in clinical psychology and they go, “well, this is, you know, industrial psychology or organizational psychology.” And so I got a lot of doors slammed in my face. And really it was just luck. I applied at an organizational behavior firm where the boss, the founder of this firm had a clinical background and had sort of made his way in the world. My story resonated with him and he saw enough potential there to take a chance. Again, I think anyone who has any modicum of career success can point to times in their career where they just got lucky. That was certainly one for me, where he saw himself in me, took a chance on me and knew what it was like to be in my position, because I just wasn’t getting a look at most places because I didn’t have the right sort of psychology background.

09:47 Daniel: In terms of the field of behavioral finance, behavioral finance is just sort of the study of finance that incorporates the messiness of human beings. A lot of standard financial and econometric models are based on simplifications of human behavior that make humans look more rational than they really are. Behavioral finance is just finance with human irrationality factored in and talking about the way that we make quirky decisions with our money. This was a field that was around. Not too many years later they gave out a couple of Nobel prizes for it. The good thing for me, sort of the niche that I found, was there were people out there charging $200,000 an appearance. These Nobel prize winning folks were out there charging a $100,000 to $200,000 every time they gave a speech and multimillion dollar contracts for consulting, but there was no one that was more affordable and there was no one that was more applied. There just weren’t many people doing more reasonable applied behavioral finance work and taking these great ideas that these folks had come up with and taking them out of the ivory tower and putting them on the desks of everyday people or everyday financial advisers. That’s sort of where my niche — my niche became being the more affordable, more practical options.

11:23 Emily: But it sounds like what you were doing was really taking academic research and translating into what can be then used on the ground by, as you said, advisors and perhaps other people, is that right?

11:35 Daniel: Yeah, that’s right. I mean that’s been sort of the trajectory of my whole career is as an intermediary between people who are much smarter than me and people who haven’t been exposed to these ideas. I sort of view myself as a translator to take these ideas, this research, and make it speak to the lives of everyday people.

11:57 Emily: This actually reminds me, from what you were saying, of my physics training, which is what I did my undergraduate degree in, where you basically assume that everything is a sphere, so the calculations are actually manageable because if you actually look at what things are, real shapes and so forth, it’s just the math is completely beyond what’s possible. Of course, not everything is a sphere, but you have to assume they are to make the math work. It reminds me of that.

12:23 Emily: I am curious if anything in your personal history — going through the PhD process and then, and then coming out as an early career PhD, and this job search and so forth — has any of that informed the work that you’re doing now within behavioral finance? Any of that personal stuff informing that?

12:41 Daniel: I don’t think so, really. I don’t think that really informs a ton of what I do from day to day. It probably informs my parenting more than my work. I have three young children and my wife and I talked, that as we raise them, I’m just trying to give them a more expansive look at the world of work and maybe a more detailed look at finding the sweet spot between following your passion and doing work that gives you the kind of life that you want. Because one thing that my studies have shown me is that we all measure what normal is on a relative basis. This is true of everything from mental health to wealth. Normal for you is financially is just kind of what you grew up with, so I think you need to be candid with your children about how they grew up and what normal is and what normal isn’t. So yeah, it probably impacts the way that I parent more than more than anything else.

13:51 Emily: Gotcha. What about the reverse ways, from taking what you’ve been learning about personal finance and behavioral finance since you pivoted into that field? Have you taken any of what you learned and applied it in your personal life or were you already kinda there with what you grew up with your particular parents?

14:09 Daniel: Yeah. What’s interesting is I have applied a lot of what I’ve learned from behavioral finance into my own life. But one of the primary ways that I’ve done this is by knowing what I don’t know. I remember, and I think every PhD has this experience, I remember I started my program when I was 23 years old. I start this PhD in psychology, 23 years old, thinking I know everything, get out a couple of years later and I’m like, did I learn anything? I feel like I know less than I did before. I think I have more questions than answers now. Especially when what you’re studying is something as hard to get your arms around as human behavior, you never quite get good at it. One of the primary things that I’ve learned from my years of study of finance is that nobody really knows anything and that knowledge is a weak predictor of behavior. I work with a financial advisor myself. And not to toot my own horn here, but I think when it comes to knowledge of markets and things, I probably know more than my advisor, but that’s not why I pay him. I pay him to keep me out of my own way. I pay him to be a barrier between me and the sort of bad behaviors I study because I know that simple knowledge of the sort of biased, irrational poor behavior that I study is a weak predictor of doing the opposite. I know I’m no better than the next person, no matter how many books I write on the subject. I take pains to diversify, to keep my fees low and to work with someone who will keep me out of my own way.

16:01 Emily: Yeah. I think this is something that’s maybe not well understood by the public. That you may be paying an advisor for expertise — you are not necessarily, but someone else may be — but an even more important role is, as you just said, to kind of talk you off the ledge from carrying out bad behaviors that you’re inclined to do as any human naturally would. You’re specifically talking right now within the realm of investing, is that right? Or does your advisor help you with other decisions as well?

16:31 Daniel: He does help me with things around, you know, the purchase of a home. He’s sort of a sounding board for things like college savings for my kids, the purchase of a home. But I’m primarily focused on investing and investing professionally is my primary focus.

Commercial

16:53 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money, but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series, as you make changes over the long term. You can find out more at PFforPhDs.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part coaching, part course, and part community. You can find out more and join the wait list for the next time I open the program at PFforPhDs.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Human Emotions and Financial Decisions

18:08 Emily: Is there anything else that you have learned, and then applied in your own life, aside from putting a bit of distance between yourself and being able to make a fast decision?

18:18 Daniel: Well, one of the hallmarks of behavioral finances talks about overcoming emotion. A lot of what we talk about is how do we keep people from making these emotionally laden decisions, but one of the other things you learn when you’re studying human behavior is that it’s always easier to roll with a behavioral tendency than to push against it. There’s cool research that shows that people who look at a picture of their children for five seconds before making a financial decision save more, are more likely to stay the course, et cetera. Similarly, we find that people who invest in ways that are aligned with their own personal preferences around the world that they want, in terms of social issues, environmental issues, tend to be better behaved. So I’ve tried to build some emotion into my process. I’ve tried to keep the things and the people that I love at the front of my mind and central in the planning and investing process, and I’ve tried to invest in a way that’s consistent with my values, because I think that it makes it a little stickier than say owning the S&P 500. It just personalizes it a bit. I think that those are both powerful ways to make investing a little more fun, to make the investing and planning process a little more personal and to bring about some good behavior in the end as well.

19:51 Emily: I really love those suggestions. I think I’ve also, maybe in the similar vein of looking at a picture of your children, I’ve heard that if you look at a picture of yourself aged up, you make different decisions. Is that right?

20:04 Daniel: That is right. Yeah. One of the things you learn a lot about in behavioral finance is salience and salience is just the ease with which you can sort of imagine or tap into a situation. As I sit here, I’ll be 40 next week, so as I sit here at nearly 40 years of age, it’s hard for me to imagine 80 year old Daniel, right? The idea of a guy who walks with a cane and has gray hair and stuff, it feels a little remote. People have found that if you age your face, you’re basically making it a more visceral experience to imagine yourself as this 80 year old version of yourself, it brings about better behavior. Again, that’s an imperfect example of how you imbue the process with a little emotion to help you make the right decision.

20:56 Emily: I actually had a client asked me recently what I thought about the particular RoboAdvisor Ellevest and she followed that up with, well, I’m really passionate about women and empowering women and all these things that were sort of in line with Ellevest’s mission. And I said to her, well, it sounds like you’re really excited about that, so I think they’re fine and go for it. Because, as you were saying earlier, if it it lines with her values, that particular manner of investing, she’ll probably be more likely to throw more money at it, engage with it more, and have a better outcome. Is that right?

21:27 Daniel: Yeah, that is. Without speaking to the particulars of Ellevest, I don’t know all the ins and outs of it enough to say one way or the other, I have a lot of respect for Sallie Krawcheck who heads up a Ellevest. But in general, you’re more likely to contribute to, and stay the course in your women’s leadership fund than you are your S&P 500 fund because it’s personalized, it’s tailored to you and your values and, not making any promises here, but there is also research to suggest that the kind of companies folks like Ellevest seek out, companies that have better female representation on boards and things, there’s historical research to suggest that those companies have outperformed the broad market, at least historically. I think there’s every reason to try and personalize your investing to your own preferences, feel like you’re doing a little good in the world, and if that helps to animate you to stay the course or to set aside a little money, both of which are very psychologically difficult, more power.

Behavioral Finance Strategies for the PhD

22:35 Emily: Absolutely. Yeah. Another question here. We’ve started to get some insights into this behavioral finance stuff, maybe for the general population, but I’m wondering if you see that there are any personal finance pitfalls that you think PhDs might be particularly susceptible to falling into, and then what strategies might there be to not do that?

22:59 Daniel: I’ve observed — I’ll speak to psychologists, doctors of psychology in particular, but I think that this probably applies to PhDs broadly — a lot of times we get a PhD because we want deep domain-specific knowledge, right? We get into this because we love it. We want to be the best in the world at it, but almost every position needs a bit of business savvy, and I think that we have more power than we realize. I think this power takes a couple of forms. I think first of all, you need the power to negotiate a salary. That first job you get is more predictive of your ultimate wealth than just about anything else, because it benchmarks every subsequent salary conversation. Being comfortable negotiating that first salary — I remember that first job, you feel lucky just to be there. You beat out 20 other talented people to get the offer, but don’t be afraid to know your worth and to negotiate that salary. I would say PhDs need a little business training, because we have this deep domain-specific knowledge, but we don’t know, sometimes I feel like, how to do more practical things. I think get a little bit of business knowledge.

Daniel: Then a third thing and I would say the thing that has probably served me best in my career, financially, is to just think creatively about your role. If I had stayed on the prescribed path of being a dual-appointed college counselor, I would make a fraction of what I make now. Because I thought expansively about the things that I learned in school, and rather than saying, “Oh, I’m a PhD in psychology, so let me do PhD in psychology things” I thought, well, I know to have great conversations with people. I know how to run a training. I know how to read human emotion and human behavior and all of these things, when you conceive of them as building blocks, you can repurpose those building blocks in different ways and create a host of opportunities for yourself. Rather than thinking about one prescribed path, think about your education as a series of building blocks, a series of competencies that you can repurpose in any number of ways to do a host of different things. Finally, I would say don’t be scared to get out of academia. Because when I was in academia, you’re a face in the crowd, you’re one PhD among many. But when you get out in the real world, when you get out in the business world, you’re special and people respect your expertise in a way that they might not necessarily in a university setting. Lots to be said for a university setting of course, but I think don’t be scared to get out there to try something new and to know your worth.

Dealing With an Income Increase Post-PhD

26:20 Emily: Such wonderful advice and you put that so well. Thank you. I’m wondering if you have any advice for a person in this situation, which is something that you went through, which is a person who is about to come on a large income increase? They’ve been in training, grad school, postdoc, whatever it might be, and now they’re going out there and doubling or tripling, or more, their salary, potentially in industry, or similar. What behavioral finance concept should that person know about and be applying in that situation?

26:50 Daniel: This is a great question. The concept to know here is what’s called the hedonic treadmill, which says that, as our earning increases, our consumption or spending tends to increase in ways that are commensurate with the increase in earning. And then you never feel richer. You never feel better off because your lifestyle has risen as fast as your income. My number one piece of advice here would be to not let your lifestyle rise faster than your income and to make sure that as your income increases, so does the amount you’re setting aside, because lifestyle creep is a really, really big problem. What’s fascinating is, and I’ve been certainly bitten by some of this and haven’t followed my own advice here in certain instances, but the things that seem so extraordinary to you — I think about my house; when we bought this house it was the most beautiful house I had ever seen and soon it’s just where you throw your dirty socks — it just quickly becomes the backdrop against which you live your life. So really watch out for lifestyle creep. Make sure that if your income increases 50%, that your spending only increases 25%. Have a little fun, but make sure that they don’t increase in lockstep because that’s not where happiness is.

28:26 Emily: Yeah. I guess, I think I would add onto that — you put it very well about how the hedonic treadmill operates — I think that for some PhDs, when they get out of training and they finally have that larger salary, there’s some pent up demand. There’s some pent up wanting to spend behavior because they have been on this constrained income for so long. My advice to that person, in addition to what you said, would be to splurge on something that’s a one time expense, like a grand vacation or something, and not upgrade your housing this high degree, not upgrade your transportation to a high degree, not upgrade those fixed or recurring expenses in your life, but rather have this one wonderful, pleasurable experience and then get back to a lifestyle that is, as you were saying, far below what you could actually “afford” with your new salary, just so you aren’t stuck on that treadmill over the long term.

29:15 Daniel: I love that advice and I think it’s also consistent with understanding how you can spend money in ways that make you happy. When you look at the research on how to spend in ways that makes you happy, giving money away makes us happy, spending on experiences makes us happy and spending on getting rid of stuff we hate doing makes us happy. Having someone mow your lawn for example, makes happy. Buying time, buying experiences, and giving for goodwill — these are the things that make us happy. Don’t go buy a fancy car. Don’t go buy a big house that’s going to lock you into this recurring expense trap and it’s not even going to make you feel any better. It’s a trap.

Last Words of Advice and Where to Find Dr. Daniel Crosby Online

30:01 Emily: It’s great insight. Thank you. Do you have any final pieces of advice? We’ve already heard so much, but anything more for that early career PhD in terms of personal finance or behavioral finance advice?

30:11 Daniel: Again, just really to know your worth. I felt like when I broke out of my swim lane and got out of the cattle call that was sort of herding me towards this very prescribed life and once I sort of broke out and got into the world, I found that people had a lot more enthusiasm and respect for my ideas than they might have in a more constrained academic setting. So know your worth, don’t be afraid to ask for what you’re worth and go get ’em.

30:46 Emily: Wonderful. And if listeners want to follow up more with you, want to learn more from you, read your books, listen to you, where should they go?

30:54 Daniel: Yeah, I’d encourage folks to check out my books. The Laws of Wealth* is probably the place to start, The Behavioral Investor* is next. I’m super active on LinkedIn and Twitter, @danielcrosby.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

31:07 Emily: Thank you so much, Daniel, for this interview.

31:10 Daniel: My pleasure.

Outtro

31:11 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Achive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.