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This PhD Entrepreneur Advocates for Universal Basic Income (Part 2)

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jim Pugh, the founder of ShareProgress and co-host of the Basic Income Podcast. Jim defines universal basic income and outlines how it would alleviate poverty and other social ills, including results from research and real-life experiments with basic income. He describes the possible avenues by which universal basic income could be funded and whether it would replace our existing social safety nets. Jim and Emily speculate about how universal basic income might affect higher education funding, including PhD stipends and postdoc salaries, and PhD trainees themselves.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

PhD universal basic income

Teaser

00:00 Jim: You could basically think of this as universal basic fellowships for PhD students because I think that the dynamics that come with it very, very closely would match what it would be if you were getting a fellowship of the same size.

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode two, and today my guest is Dr. Jim Pugh, the founder of ShareProgress and cohost of The Basic Income Podcast. In this second half of our interview, Jim articulates what basic income is and how it would alleviate poverty in the United States, including results from recent research and experimentation. He describes the possible avenues by which it could be funded and whether it would replace our existing social safety nets. We speculate about how basic income might affect higher education, including PhD stipends and postdoc salaries. Without further ado, here’s the second part of my interview with Dr. Jim Pugh.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:06 Emily: We’re back now with part two of my interview with Dr. Jim Pugh. In part one, he told us all about how he started a business a few years after graduate school, which ultimately allowed him a great deal of time freedom. So, his business pays for his lifestyle, but he only works at this point about five hours a week on the business. And that has allowed him to pivot to his advocacy work around universal basic income, which is what we’re going to be hearing a lot more about today. So, Jim, thank you so much for continuing this interview with me. And we want to start off with a basic question about universal basic income because frankly, I probably would not have really heard about this except that you and I are Facebook friends. And also, we’re recording this in September, 2019 and Andrew Yang is a candidate for the democratic nomination for president. So, between those two things, I’ve kind of heard a little bit about basic income, but I would love to hear a lot more about what it actually is from you.

01:59 Jim: Sure. Well, so, just to start with the definition. A universal basic income is a policy that would provide every single person in the country with unconditional cash payments regularly–most people talk about once a month–that’s actually enough to cover basic needs. And the idea of it is that, if you were to enact this, you eradicate absolute poverty. You’re ensuring that everyone does have enough money to cover the fundamentals. And so, in some ways it’s very, very simple because it’s just giving people some cash. But in other ways, we’re potentially talking about something very radical because we would for the first time be saying, we are fully abolishing absolute poverty. We’re saying that absolutely no one in the country should be poor and that we’re going to structure our systems with that in mind. And so the ramifications of that are pretty profound as far as what does it mean for work? What does it mean for health? What does it mean for people’s general lifestyle if you’re actually establishing that fundamental financial security floor?

Benefits of Universal Basic Income (UBI)

03:12 Emily: Okay, so let’s first take the benefits–the upsides of this–and let’s leave aside, for the moment, the practicalities of it, but just to talk about the vision for what this society might be like. So, what are the benefits that people might experience maybe who are currently in poverty but would be lifted out of that through UBI? You started to talk about this a little bit at the end of the last episode. So, there’s actually been research done in this area and there’s been some experimentation. So, can you talk a little about what we know already about how this might change things for people?

03:43 Jim: Yeah, so I think there are the obvious things that we know when people are poor, they can’t afford food or at least healthy food. They may be having trouble finding somewhere to live. They may not be able to take care of themselves. So, if you’re actually ensuring that everyone is up above the poverty line through just regular cash transfers, those are all things that are addressed, first order of facts. But I think beyond that, that’s where things start to get quite interesting because we have seen more and more evidence around how poverty and financial insecurity, if not causing, are at least are greatly contributing to a lot of other issues that we’re dealing with today. And so, people when they are approaching any aspect of their life, they can either be in an abundance mentality where they think, “Okay, I have enough. I can think bigger picture.” Or a scarcity mentality where they feel constrained, which basically gives people tunnel vision that they’re only thinking about what’s right in front of them.

Abundance Mindset, Higher IQ

04:51 Jim: And that difference has huge impacts on what happens to people. So, first off, there have been studies just looking at general intelligence, and there is a substantial shift in people’s IQ level between those two different headspaces. I think it’s around one standard deviation, so about 10 IQ points, smarter when you’re in an abundance mindset as opposed to a scarcity mindset. So, you’re making better decisions. Second, as I said, when you get that tunnel vision and so it means you’re just thinking about what’s right in front of you, it basically prevents you from longterm planning. You can’t be thinking about, “What is my life going to be even a year, much less, five, 10 years down the road?” if you’re worried about, Oh, how am I going to put food on the table tonight or tomorrow? And so, it allows people and encourages people to plan better, to make better longterm decisions which has big impacts around choices on education, choices around what sort of work they pursue, and ultimately, where they do end up in five, 10 years down the road.

Scarcity Mindset Damages Mental and Physical Health

05:58 Jim: And so, beyond just being able to afford health treatments, there’s also a lot of evidence that when you’re in a scarcity mindset, when you’re in poverty, it’s extremely damaging for mental health. And also for physical health, the stress has an impact on that as well. Crime–strong, strong correlation based on people’s financial security as to whether they’re more or less likely to commit crimes. And so there’s all of these second and third order implications around how things would look in our society if we weren’t to have this absolute poverty. That’s seems incredibly promising. And so, that’s why, again, our typical approach as a society is to, when something’s going wrong, to treat the symptoms of it. And this, instead, is really saying, “Let’s actually try to take a step back, deal with some of the underlying causes, and see how much easier that makes dealing with all the rest of this stuff.”

UBI and Job Flexibility

07:00 Emily: Okay. Sounds amazing. It sounds very, very compelling. I’m wondering a little bit more about what the vision for what this society may look like, should we bring it about. You talked earlier about jobs. And so, is the idea that not as many people would need to work? There wouldn’t necessarily be as many people in jobs? Or is the idea that you would have just more freedom and flexibility around when you want to work and when you went to have further training? How does this relate to the jobs, I guess is what I’m asking?

07:28 Jim: I think much more the latter. So, the idea is not that this is something that’s going to replace jobs wholesale. I think it does allow you to pursue a more general definition of work, I would say. And so, in the sense that “job” right now means a fairly specific thing in those conversations about more like a nine to five, like ongoing, consistent workplace. This does give you additional flexibility to think a bit differently about what is the right form of work for you to be doing. So, whether that’s part-time, whether that’s taking some time to get more of an education in the area that ultimately is going to allow you to do something that you feel better about and maybe much more productive for society. Whether it’s going to give you the flexibility if you want to do some sort of family care or staying home with children or elderly folks.

UBI Facilitates Entrepreneurship

08:25 Jim: Another one is entrepreneurship. If you’re considering starting a company or doing something that, in its early stages, may not be giving you a steady paycheck–having more flexibility around that as well. So, it opens up all these doors that most folks, I would say, don’t really have access to at this point in time. As far as overall impact on how much people are working, there have actually been a number of studies on this. And what it suggests is the results vary. That there are certain situations where, when you give people regular, unconditional cash, they work more. It seems like, either through stimulating the local economy and creating jobs or by giving people that flexibility, they end up doing more work. So, Alaska for the last 40 years has actually had a universal income provided by oil in the state. And recent studies have found that the overall work rate hasn’t changed, but you see a lot more people engaging in part-time work than you have in the past. Or, certain groups, studies have found there is a decrease in work, quite consistently actually across studies. The ones where that’s only really stood out is parents with young children and teenagers, basically. And interviewing folks involved in that, it seems like the former is spending more time staying home with kids, the latter spending more time at school. So, again, it’s not captured as work in how we measure it today, but it actually is work and potentially much more pro-social work than they might otherwise be engaged in.

10:06 Emily: So, this is really reminding me of–so I have not read this book. The book is Your Money or Your Life by Vicky Robin, I want to say. And she has a coauthor. Anyway, I heard a podcast interview with her within the last few weeks and she was talking about how in our current society, like you’re saying, there’s a lot of work that is not inside a job, right? There’s a lot of work that people do in our society to further it. A lot of women do this kind of work and it’s not valued in terms of a paycheck from a job, right? That doesn’t mean it’s not contributing to society. And so, I don’t remember if they specifically talked about basic income on that podcast, but this is a way to sort of reframe what counts as work and what counts as doing something valuable with your time.

UBI and Social Safety Nets

10:51 Emily: Yeah. Okay. So, I think I’m getting you here. I have another question: would this replace the social safety nets that we have currently and expand them, I guess you could say?

11:03 Jim: So, there are mixed opinions on this amongst people who advocate for basic income. I’m actually in the camp saying that this should not initially be treated as a replacement for any social programs. And I think the reasons are: one, is that I think there is widespread recognition across the political spectrum that our social safety net is not working as well as we would like it to. You get very different opinions as to what would allow it to work as well as we would like it to. But no one is satisfied with where it’s at. I think a lot of people have talked about, “Let’s provide basic income and then just cut much, if not all, of other social programs because this will eradicate absolute poverty. Why do we need to worry about anything else?” And there are actually, I would say, a lot of edge cases here where it’s people who are dealing with some specific challenge for which cash on its own is not going to quickly solve it. It will help a lot in many situations. But I think there is the risk that if you say, “All right, we’ll get rid of this other stuff and just give you cash,” you’ve basically taken a problem that requires multiple parts to solve and just replaced one part with another. And, in some cases, maybe they keep people worse off because of that.

Targeted Interventions Beyond UBI 

12:25 Emily: Can you be more specific about what is being provided to people now that’s not money?

12:29 Jim: Yeah. So, I think disability being a good one where disabilities can look very different for different sorts of people. And in some cases, the support you would need to actually be able to live with disabilities requires much more than what a basic income would provide. And so, that’s a case where, if someone were to say, “We’re going to wipe everything off the books and just give you that,” a lot of people in that situation are going to be left far worse off. I think there are specific issues around addiction, in some situations, housing assistance where there is obviously there are areas where housing is far, far more expensive. And so, to think that a national UBI would actually be enough for people in the Bay Area to be able to get by, it’s not realistic. And so, that’s a situation where a targeted intervention beyond the UBI is going to be important.

13:22 Jim: And then I think there are other ones where it may be some general challenge where someone’s falling out of the workforce or coming back from deployment abroad where, again, making sure that they have enough cash is important, but there are additional services that come beyond that that also much better set them up to succeed than the cash on its own. And so, I think that that’s a key thing here is to recognize both how transformative and valuable UBI could be, but also that it’s not a panacea. It’s not a silver bullet. It’s something that will need an ecosystem of additional supports if we actually want to have an effective safety net. And so, I don’t think the safety net that we have right now is doing that well enough, and we need to be rethinking that. But I think that there’s a danger when people say, “UBI instead of that,” that we throw the baby out with the bathwater and end up in a situation where people may be much worse off than they are today.

Regional Cost of Living Considerations

14:25 Emily: Yeah. I think because this is, I don’t necessarily want to say it’s a new idea. I mean, you said Alaska has been doing something like this for 40 years, but it’s gained maybe national attention only in recent years. So, this is still an idea that’s being worked out. And at the policy level, if viable, we don’t know exactly what the ultimate solution would look like. And presumably, it would change over decades and generations anyway. So, I’m glad you brought up the cost of living question. Because the U.S. is very diverse in terms of cost of living. Is the ultimate idea still that people would get the same amount of money no matter where they live? Maybe with some additional help, like you were just saying, for certain people in certain areas?

Psychological Implications

15:05 Jim: So yeah, a key part of it is–and I don’t think I said in my original definition, but the idea is–this would be the same amount to everyone. And there are a couple reasons for that. One is logistical that it becomes much easier to manage if it’s the same for everyone. But the other is more psychological. One of the reasons for taking a universal approach is to try to eliminate stigma associated with receiving support, which in our modern age, we all see how much stigma is associated with receiving various forms of welfare. And that, if it’s something that everyone in society is getting, you’re able to get around that. Because why is it wrong for the homeless person on the street to get the check every month if I’m also getting my check every month?

Regional Supplements

15:52 Jim: And so, that’s another reason to have the equal, universal amount. But as you say, what that means is that in particularly different regions across the country, you’re going to see big differences as far as the implications of that. So, there certainly are parts of the country where if you were giving everyone a thousand dollars a month, you can survive without too much difficulty. If you’re in the Bay Area or other places, that does not get you very far. And so, that’s an area where you do need to have something beyond that. There’s been some discussion around regional supplements where you might be able to top up a equal federal amount with something that goes up more for more expensive areas. But I think beyond that, yeah, there may be other targeted interventions that are important.

UBI Increases Mobility

16:46 Jim: I think one question that comes up that we don’t really have a good answer to but people wonder about is, if you’re providing the basic income to everyone, it is going to increase people’s mobility. And so, if you currently feel tied to a certain geography for economic reasons, which may be very expensive, whether that gives you the option to relocate to somewhere that is less expensive. And then that gets very complicated because it goes into community ties and family and things like that where there may be other factors beyond just the economics of it. But it’s something that would be different if we did this and so, potentially, that at least partially would help to mitigate some of those challenges.

Commercial

17:35 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers even while social distancing. Now, back to our interview.

The Basic Income Podcast

18:34 Emily: I feel like I could continue asking you questions about this for quite a long time. It’s a good thing you have a podcast where other people can learn more about this. What is the name of your podcast?

18:45 Jim: Our name is a bit on the nose. We are The Basic Income Podcast. We’ve been introducing weekly episodes for about three years now and exploring both UBI specifically, but also, how it relates and connects to all sorts of other areas.

How to Fund UBI in the U.S.

19:00 Emily: Okay. So, I’m going to hold off on the questions that are still swirling in my head and just say, listeners, if you’re excited about this idea, or skeptical of it, or whatever, go ahead and check out the podcast and I’m sure there are other resources that you refer to from there where people can continue to learn even more. So, one more question around the vision of this, which is should we all, or enough of us in the United States, decide this is a good idea, what actually does it look like to fund this? Maybe post-transition, if there is a transition.

Enact Changes to the Tax Code

19:32 Jim: Yeah, so that’s another area where people have very different opinions around. Because, I mean, if we’re looking at it on its face saying, “All right, everyone in the country gets a thousand dollars a month,” that’s about $4 trillion, which is the size of our current governmental spending, which seems insane. But there are various caveats, I would say, that make it much more achievable than it may seem at a glance. My preferred approach to financing is first to recognize that, if you’re going to enact universal basic income, it means you need to make some significant differences in the tax code. And specifically, as a starting point, I think income tax. At its core, the goal of UBI is to provide people with financial security. And so, what that means is that, knowing you’re always going to get your check every month is important because who knows what may happen to you. And having it always there gives you that security.

20:31 Jim: But, if you’re earning a good paycheck, there’s no reason why you should be coming out net ahead, necessarily. And so, to basically update our income tax brackets such that, once people make above a certain point, their UBI is effectively being taxed away. So, maybe that’s four times the poverty level. So, if you as an individual are earning more than 50 or $60,000 a year, basically, you’d be getting your check every month and then you’d be paying a bit more in taxes to cover that expense. If you do it that way and look at what’s eventually the net cost, it drops to somewhere between 500 billion and a trillion dollars a year, which is still a lot, but a lot less than the four trillion we started with.

Shift Tax Programs and Brackets

21:18 Jim: And so, then there are different ideas as to how do you pay for that. That’s much more in line with other somewhat ambitious governmental programs. You can couple together some combination of a carbon tax, the financial transaction tax, a wealth tax. And sort of talking more about that, Elizabeth Warren wrote it up in her campaign where you’re able to raise that amount of money to cover that difference. And also, I think potentially looking at adding a few tax brackets at the top of the income level. If we were to go back to the taxation we had pre-Reagan, that would be bringing in a substantial amount there. So, with those things combined, you can relatively easily actually be able to cover the cost.

UBI and Graduate Training

22:02 Emily: Okay. Very, very interesting. So, I wanted to pivot a little bit to tie this really into more of our PhD audience because we haven’t brought that up so far really. I mean, you mentioned earlier that you know, having a basic income could afford people the flexibility to do more training. Of course, PhDs have a lot of that. Have you given any thought, or has there been any discussion around this, how basic income–I’m sure it’s been discussed at the undergraduate level, how that would affect people pursuing college degrees? You can speak about that a little bit if you like, but I am curious about what you think about how it might affect PhD training in the United States. And specifically, you know, you brought up earlier the scarcity mindset and how that prevented people from thinking longterm and it caused an effective IQ drop.

22:45 Emily: And in season four of this podcast, I published a two-part interview with Dr. Lucie Bland and she talked about her scarcity mindset that she developed during her PhD because she was living in poverty during her PhD. She was funded at a very low level. She lives in a very expensive city, and it’s something that a lot of people can relate to during their graduate training. Although you wouldn’t necessarily think about graduate students, a relatively privileged bunch, I would expect, necessarily being beneficiaries of basic income. But maybe during that training period, they are. So, can you just speak a little bit about that?

UBI and Financial Security

23:18 Jim: Well, I would actually just add on to that. What we’re seeing in the Bay Area right now is not only at the graduate student level, but actually the assistant professor level, in some places, that people are homeless. They can’t afford to live here. So, they’re living out of their cars. Yeah, I mean I think that it’s giving you that layer of financial security, which should help with that. I think, not just because it’s some extra money, but because it would be extra money not tied your employment education situation. And obviously this is not everyone, hopefully a small minority, but if you’re having some bad power dynamics with your professor and feeling like you don’t want to be working with him or her but are not able to step away because of finances you’re receiving from there, it gives you kind of that out knowing that, regardless of what you decide there, you have that income coming in otherwise.

Parallel: UBI and Fellowship Income

24:15 Emily: So, there’s actually a slight parallel there, actually with fellowship income, right? And you did your PhD outside of the state, so, maybe it’s a little bit different there. But here with fellowship income, you know, it’s an award that you receive as an individual. It’s based on your own merits. And so, it’s not necessarily tied to you staying in one person’s lab. And so, I again, I publish an interview in season four where someone was able to switch labs, did not have a good relationship with their first advisor, was able to switch labs partially because she received an NSF graduate research fellowship. And so, similar situation, right? If, you know you can go a few months and transition without a paycheck coming from your advisor, it gives you more freedom there to really seek out the situation that is going to support you best as a developing researcher. So, yeah. Excellent point there. Please continue.

24:59 Jim: Yeah. Well, I was going to say, I think you just nailed it. You could basically think of this as universal basic fellowships for PhD students because I think that, yeah, I think the dynamics that come with it very, very closely with match what it would be if you were getting a fellowship of the same size. I mean obviously with the added flexibility that you could leave a PhD program and still have it. But as far as the context within graduate school, I think that that’s basically what it would be.

25:27 Emily: Just to explore that a little bit further. Because I do think it’s a good analogy. So, one of the great things about fellowship income is that it gives you more freedom in your research, right? So, if you’re not beholden to working on a specific grant for your advisor, like you often are in STEM fields if you have a research assistantship. The fellowship allows you more intellectual flexibility and pursuing projects that are more in line with your own goals. It allows you to pursue collaborations. It’s just a greater degree of freedom. Now, some advisors exact more or less control when they do have people on a grant for research assistantships. That’s sort of up to their discretion. But yeah, the flexibility there in terms of your intellectual pursuits would then translate in terms of UBI into your general career pursuits, life pursuits. It would just be a much broader funding of that.

26:14 Jim: Yeah, I think that’s right. I think I could imagine there would also be kind of a trade-off on that versus greater financial security. Because one of the questions would be, if everyone were getting a basic income, would you still have PhD student stipends and outside fellowships at a similar level? If you would, okay, everyone’s going to be much more economically stable.

Final Thoughts on UBI and Academia

26:40 Emily: You said earlier as like a touch point that, in your vision of this, around 50 or $60,000 of income, that’s when the UBI would kind of phase out. And for the graduate student level, graduate students don’t reach that point. A lot of postdocs don’t reach that point. So, in some sense, if nothing changed on the grant side of things, then it would boost your income. But yes, the question is whether people would still be funded to the same degree given that they have that baseline. So, if the idea right now in academia is we give people just enough money to live on so they don’t have to have other jobs that distract from their PhD research, well then maybe they would just decrease that funding. So, yeah. Any other thoughts around that? I’m sure this has not been very fully explored because it’s a very niche interest.

27:24 Jim: Well, no, I think that this is a specific example of something that is much broader, which is basically, if we were to have UBI, what does that do to wages? And the theory is that it depends a lot on what type of work you’re talking about and how much there is the internal versus external motivation around doing that work. Because if someone’s only doing the work because they’re getting paid to do it, UBI actually has the potential to then increase wages because it basically gives them more leverage to say, “Oh, well I don’t actually like this work. I’m going to go pursue other options.” And a company might then have to say, “Oh, well instead of $8 an hour, we’re going to pay you $15 an hour.” On the flip side, if it’s something that people just want to be doing for other reasons, like perhaps going to graduate school since not too many people go to graduate school to get rich, then there’s the opposite potential where, if someone is basically willing to do it, assuming that they won’t be starving, then universities may say, “Okay, well you’re UBI now instead of giving you $18,000 a year, we’re going to give you six.

28:43 Jim: So, I mean, it’s a whole other topic, but I would say that that’s where unions might come in handy. But yeah, I think it’s one of those areas that it’s very, very difficult to answer and know exactly what will happen until we actually do it. So, we can hypothesize around it. But yeah, that’s an open question.

Value of Teaching and Shifting Landscape in Education

29:07 Emily: Yeah, I guess I’m also thinking about sort of we’re having larger debates and angst in academia around the value of teaching, right? Because there’s this huge adjunct workforce that is, you know, severely underpaid. They don’t have job security and yet such a huge percentage of the classes that undergraduates and graduate students take are being taught by people who are not full-time employees of the institution that they work for or institutions. And it’s just such a difficult area right now. I can definitely see how UBI would help people in that situation, right? Because they are also experiencing poverty or near poverty-like situations, many of them. But, yeah. I mean, we’re in a transition point for education broadly. Like, if we’re moving to massive online courses and so forth, maybe if your teachers are needed. I don’t know. There are just a lot of transition here. I guess when we’re talking about maybe some kinds of jobs disappearing or transitioning, teaching at the higher education level, is one of those jobs that is sort of in transition in the workforces. And so, yeah. UBI is just kind of another element to kind of throw into the mix here that we don’t really know how it’s going to play out entirely.

30:13 Jim: Yeah, I think that’s right. And this applies less, I would say. I would expect it to still apply to some degree, but on the flip side, as far as what is the responsibility of the teacher versus the student? I think, certainly at the elementary and high school level, there’s ample evidence that financial stability of the family that the students are coming from makes a big difference as far as how well they’re able to learn. And so, that’s, I would say, another wrinkle that gets thrown in here as well, where if you are ensuring that everyone who is in the class is in more of an abundance mindset, what implications does that have to what is the most effective way of educating?

Tell Us More About Your Podcast

30:55 Emily: Such an interesting topic, Jim. I think that people will definitely want to follow up with you and learn more about this. Maybe have more discussions with you around what does the potential of UBI look like in affecting higher education and graduate students and postdocs and trainees. Again, tell us a little bit more about what you do. We have the name of it, but what do you do on your podcast?

31:14 Jim: Yeah, so we cover a lot of different areas. Most of the episodes, I think like yours, feature or are centered around a guest interview on some topic. And so, we’ve covered everything from, yeah what does UBI do with the disability community, to what’s happening in Canada with UBI to digging in on some of the modern control pilots that are being done in the U.S. and abroad to what is the connection between UBI and housing? And so, it really covers a lot of different areas, but generally we bring on an expert, we chat with them, and then we talk through what are the ramifications of what they said. And so, really try to dig in a little bit on many different areas.

UBI and Healthcare, Education

32:03 Emily: So, actually one follow-up question that goes maybe more back to our earlier conversation with what does this vision look like? Does the implementation of UBI come with it or depend on a revolution within healthcare and also in higher education? You know, paying for higher education.

32:21 Jim: Yeah. So, I would say healthcare comes up a lot. And in my view, UBI can only truly be successful if we actually have truly universal healthcare because it basically counts on the assumption that you can somewhat reasonably project what is the cost of living for people across the country. In our current system. If you don’t actually have universal coverage, that is impossible. I mean we see all the time, all these cases of people having insane bills for services. And as long as that continues to happen, there’s no way to actually guarantee universal financial security. And so, I see those two things as very, very complementary and part of a whole package that we should be fighting for. And education, perhaps not quite as closely coupled, but I think if we’re talking about what is beyond just financial security, what is really setting people up for longterm success, it seems obvious that we want to make that as accessible as possible. And so, a model where everyone in society has access to higher education is certainly the way to go.

Best Financial Advice for Another PhD

33:29 Emily: Gotcha. Okay. Standard question as we wrap up here that I ask all of my guests which is what is your best financial advice for another PhD? And that could be related to something that we’ve talked about in these two episodes, or it could be something entirely new.

33:44 Jim: I mean, I think it’s just like figuring out your sustainability. So, I mean, thinking about where you’ll be going with your PhD and what is your cost of living then, but just trying to set yourself up so that you’re not heading towards a cliff somewhere, which yeah, I feel like it would look very, very different depending on your specifics.

34:06 Emily: Yeah, definitely. It’s something I talk about a lot for people who are sort of in transition, right, out of graduate school, out of the postdoc into other positions, especially when they’re moving. Make sure you understand the cost of living. As you brought up earlier, you know, in San Francisco, make sure you understand the cost of living that you’re getting into and that the salary that you’ve been offered is is appropriate for that area and negotiate if that is not your initial offer. So, thank you so much for that advice. Jim, this has been a fascinating conversation, really just the tip of the iceberg on this topic, and so thank you so much for joining me.

34:38 Jim: Yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation as well.

Outtro

34:40 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Qualify for a Mortgage as a Graduate Student or PhD, Even with Non-W-2 Fellowship Income

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In this episode, Emily interviews her brother, Sam Hogan, a mortgage originator with Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at USA Mortgage) who specializes in PhDs and PhD students, particularly those receiving fellowship income. Sam relays what it takes to qualify for a mortgage in terms of credit score, income, and debt load, including the special way deferred student loans play into the calculation. He details the unusual strategies he has learned over the past year of working with PhD clients to help them get approved for mortgages, even with non-W-2 fellowship income. At the end of the interview, Sam shares why he loves working with PhD home buyers. Over the past year, Personal Finance for PhDs has referred so much business to Sam that he has become an advertiser on the podcast.

Links Mentioned

grad student PhD mortgage

Teaser

00:00 Sam: It’s always best for a PhD student to be as proactive as possible. I’ve seen letters with three years of continuance, but they’ve reached out to me after one semester has passed. Now they only have two and a half years of continuance, where someone, if they had reached out a year earlier about their future, and how they’re planning to purchase home when they were in a new area, that is the perfect slam dunk way to do it.

Introduction

0:33 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 5, Episode 17. And today, my guest is Sam Hogan, a mortgage originator with Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage) who specializes in PhDs and PhD students, particularly those receiving fellowship income. Sam relays what it takes to qualify for a mortgage in terms of credit score, and debt load, including the special way deferred student loans play into the calculation. Sam details the unusual strategies he has learned over the past year of working with PhD clients to help them get approved for mortgages, even with non-W-2 fellowship income. At the end of the interview, Sam shares why he loves working with PhD home-buyers. Over the past year, Personal Finance for PhDs has referred so much business to Sam that he has become an advertiser on the podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with my brother Sam Hogan.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:34 Emily: I’m welcoming back to the podcast today. My brother Sam Hogan, who is mortgage originator. He sells mortgages. And Sam was actually on the podcast before in Season Two, Episode Five. It was while we’re recording this on April 12, 2020 and he was last on about a year ago. At that time, we were talking about how someone with fellowship income can actually get a mortgage — non-W-2 fellowship income because tis is a tricky thing that we talked about in that episode. So now, as I said, it’s been a year since that time, Sam’s handled a lot more mortgages of this type and so he knows a lot more about this process now. So I thought we’d have him back on for an update, basically, and a little more background on getting a mortgage as a graduate student or postdoc or PhD. So, Sam, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming back on. Will you please just tell the listeners a couple words about yourself?

02:28 Sam: Thank you for having me, Emily, and Happy Easter from the east coast. Yeah, I’ve been working with PhD students now pretty heavily over the last 12 months. The company I work for, Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage), is licensed in all 50 states. I’ve had the opportunity to read, review, approve, sometimes deny, these special candidates while they’re looking for their options for home-ownership.

[Sam’s Nationwide Mortgage Licensing System and Registry number: 1491786]

Basics for First Time Home-Buyers

02:52 Emily: Thinking about someone who is probably probably a first time home-buyer doesn’t necessarily know a whole lot about the process of getting a mortgage, and of course is concerned maybe about their their income, and are they really going to qualify and all these factors — what are the factors that go into a mortgage application? And what are the the ranges, that would be acceptable for those different factors?

03:16 Sam: Okay, so generally speaking, we’re looking at a risk profile and the ability to repay. For the borrower, having a over 700 credit scores for conventional, now about over 640 or 660 for FHA loans.

Different Types of Home Loans

03:32 Emily: Okay, you just dropped the terms conventional and FHA — what’s the difference between those two?

03:37 Sam: Yeah, so FHA is your original first time homebuyer program. It’s backed by the government and it’s designed for everyone to qualify for it, if you have decent credit and decent income. Conventional is preferred because it’s going to have a lower monthly payment, and the private mortgage insurance will drop off automatically. You should have over 680 or higher credit scores to go conventional and the income ratios are a little tighter. So it’s the better loan to qualify for and it has better terms throughout the whole 30 years, or whatever your loan term is.

04:16 Emily: Okay, so FHA is a little bit easier to qualify for, because it’s sort of designed for first time home-buyers, but it’s a less preferable loan in the long term. And so if I remember correctly, a lot of people who have FHA loans for a while they then end up refinancing to a conventional type of loan a little bit later on, to get rid of that private mortgage insurance.

04:38 Sam: That is correct.

04:39 Emily: Okay, great. Okay, so going back to the the lending standards you just mentioned, like credit scores, what else goes into an application package?

04:49 Sam: Yeah, I want to just touch on our current world situation and the lending standards are changing right now. And they’re changing because everyone is in the same boat regarding a possible change or disruption in income, slowing income for a certain amount of time, so be sure to talk with an expert and their specific requirements because this will change from bank to mortgage company to a larger credit union or financial institution. These are uncertain times, so you’re going to have some fluctuation and differences from lender to lender, but you want to work just as we said before, you want to work with someone who’s keeping you in mind and your goals in mind.

How Credit Scores and Debt Impact Home Loans

05:32 Emily: Yeah, okay, great. I totally agree and we should re-emphasize that like we’re recording this in mid April, things could be different by the time we publish it, things could be different a couple months down the line, so definitely just talk with someone right away. You mentioned credit scores, but I know also, your income, of course, plays into how much of a mortgage you can qualify for. Can you talk about that a little bit?

05:53 Sam: The common rule of thumb is people will qualify for four to five times their annual income. Now that will depend also on how much debt they’re carrying, and how much they’re putting from their savings into downpayment. But that’s a pretty safe estimate. Some people who are completely debt free will qualify six times their annual income, up to. Something else lenders experience a lot is, um, people doing their own due diligence and crunching the numbers, but we have systems and practices that do this quickly, more accurately, and can give you better results, so I would say talk with someone early and have them do the work. And then after you get their feedback, run your numbers to double check and maybe have some questions for them. We want to be able to work for you, and there’s no obligation to just have a few conversations and have someone explore your options.

06:48 Emily: Yeah, that sounds good. How does that play into that because I know a lot of PhD students do have significant debt loads from maybe undergrad or a master’s degree or something like that. How does debt affect the package?

07:03 Sam: Debt is not bad. It’s good to have things on your credit that have positive history, whether that’s a student loan you’ve paid off or currently paying off, revolving credit cards. You will run into issues, if you have absolutely no debt or debt history. I strongly recommend everyone, even against their pride, get a credit card. Don’t exploit it but use it regularly, pay off regularly. You want to have established credit, especially for a young homebuyer, because they might not have the 10 or 15 years of other types or forms of debt that someone who’s in their 30s or 40s might have.

07:49 Emily: Yeah, I definitely agree with establishing a credit score and having a strong credit history. But I’m just wondering, you mentioned earlier about the size of the mortgage and how debt can affect that. Solet’s say there’s someone who’s holding a good amount of debt. Does that affect like the ratio of the amount of mortgage they can take out?

08:06 Sam: Absolutely. Let me put it in some simpler numbers. If you’re bringing in $3,000 a month, all your credit cards, new house payment, maybe your car payment or gym membership, all that cannot add up to more than $1500 dollars of your income, We take your gross income and if you’re over 50% of that debt ratio, that’s a “Hey, better luck next time.” Even better situation is to be under 43%. Under 43% of your monthly income to debt ratio, is what Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae require, currently. Now this could be used to change, sometimes annually, sometimes quicker than that, but under 43% and better is a very good place to be in.

08:55 Emily: That makes sense. Yeah, so the total amount of debt payments you can have per month is limited and the mortgage has to fit in. To be approved for a mortgage, it has to kind of fit in around those other debt obligations that you already have.

09:09 Sam: Correct.

09:09 Emily: Okay, yeah, that definitely gives us something to kind of get our hands around when someone’s deciding, like, is it even worthwhile for me to approach Sam or another lender about possibly applying for a mortgage? I know you said earlier, just ask, that’s the best thing to do, because you guys can run the numbers better than than we can outside of the industry. I had one more question about student loans, because while student loans are in deferment, how does that play into that 43% that you just said. Because if they don’t make payments, does that just like not count at all? Or how does that work?

09:43 Sam: This a very specific guideline detail that changes, just letting you know Emily, and for conventional loans, and FHA loans, it’s both different. A rule of thumb: if your student loans are in deferment, you have to take the remaining balances and calculate 1% of that, and we factor that into your debt to income ratio. So if you have $100,000 in student debt, and we’re about to calculate a potential thousand dollar payment, even though you’re not making payments on them, that could stop your deal. Okay, so brings me back to letting an expert look at it.

10:19 Sam: Also, sometimes when the lender pulls credit, the way the credit populates, it looks like they’re making payments on their student loans. But really, they’re in deferment, so all those payments have to be switched. This is why when people run the numbers themselves, they might think, “Oh, no, I can’t do it.” But lenders know what it takes to get it approved. And I did want to touch back on the debt to income, it’s best for people to know first that you want to be under 43%. If that’s 42.98%, that’s still two thumbs up. But as soon as you’re over the 43%, some of the loan terms can change and make it stricter for you to buy.

10:56 Emily: Gotcha. And I also want to emphasize that just because you qualify for a mortgage of a certain size, or just because your debt-to-income ratio fits onto that 42% or whatever, that doesn’t mean you have to buy a house that that’s expensive. So these standards are for the lending industry, they’re not necessarily the advisable thing on the personal finance side. So just keep that in mind. We’re talking about basically how to qualify, not whether this is a good idea for your finances overall to have that high of a, an amount of debt per month. I just want to add that in there from the personal finance side.

What If You Don’t Have a Typical Situation?

11:33 Emily: Okay, Sam, so thanks for running down those broad strokes criteria. If someone doesn’t meet one of these, is there any recourse? Is there anything else that can be done if they still want to go through with a purchase?

11:47 Sam: Don’t give up lenders in general, we’re in the process of approving loans. We’re not in the business of denying people we would be out of business. So try and try again, I would say, because I have had PhDs students who have finalized their transactions with me been denied by two other lenders. The tip I can give to some of these people exploring their options is be willing to over document things for any uncertainty the lender might have. If there’s some variables in your income, explain to them that “Hey, this is all under the same advisor. I’m working in different areas, different years, but it’s under the direct supervision of x and he can provide you a letter saying that I’m here for five years under his supervision and it’s common for students in my place to continue to receive their funding. Please let me know if you need any other confirmation from my supervisor.” But yeah, recourse I would just validate how good of a borrower you are: I have great credit. I have the downpayment. I have guaranteed funding.

12:52 Sam: And you always can strengthen a file with obviously a cosigner. You can have a non occupant co bar family member, even a friend, who also is hopefully in good credit standing and has income to cosign on the loan for you. That’s not a forever thing, you can refinance them off the loan. But what I’ve found out in my years in this business is, there’s always a way to make it work if you keep working at it. Some people run out of options, and while they’re in school, it’s a funky time in their life, but that doesn’t mean that you’re not going to be a homeowner in a year or two years.

13:33 Emily: Yeah, gotcha. I actually was thinking specifically about co-borrowers because that was another example that we had on the podcast. My interview with Matt Hotze, he bought a home in Durham, North Carolina when he was at Duke and he bought his first year there and he had his parents, or maybe one of his parents, as his co signers and that enabled him, because his income was, low — one graduate student stipend. He was able to get into a larger house than he would have qualified for on his own. He actually had a three bedroom house. And then he rented out two of the bedrooms. So he was able to house hack, had no problem paying the mortgage because he had reliable renters. And yeah, it all worked out really well for him. So he just needed that little bit of help at the beginning. His parents, very fortunately, were able to provide that to him, and it was kind of a rosy story after that point, but that’s what he had to do to qualify for the mortgage.

14:27 Sam: A cosigner, sometimes can solve everything, except for poor credit. But strength in numbers. You can have up to four people on conventional loan application. Have I done that ever? No. But is it possible? Yes. So yeah, I mean, if you’re having some difficulty, your loan officer, if you’re brainstorming with them, one of their first solutions is have a cosigner. A cosigner is a very simple fix. If you have to pivot your approval because you have gone through the process, you didn’t get approved on your own and your adding a cosigner on your contract, I would say give your lender about 10 days and you should be in good shape.

15:08 Emily: Gotcha. I’ll add in one more time. This is the “how to qualify for a mortgage” talk, not “is it a good idea to be a cosigner or to have a cosigner”. Totally separate conversation.

15:19 Sam: A client of mine that’s closing this month who listened to your podcast…I don’t want to reveal too much about his purchase, but we’ve been given the approval and at the start, we ran the numbers a few different ways. He was like “With a cosigner, what’s my payment? Without a cosigner how much is my cash to close?” And we were on the fence for a little bit but we were still in the process. So while he was under contract, I was still able to give him scenarios and options. We eventually decided with his deposits and everything that was already being credited, his cash to close was low enough that he wouldn’t need to have a cosigner. So it’s not set in stone at the start. Yes, it’s always better to have your ducks in a row. But the lender is flexible. We always can pivot for the buyers needs. And I also say that in the buyers defense. If something’s going wrong with the house, the lender can help you get out of the loan on your finance contingency, maybe if your home inspection is past. So there’s different ways we’re always here willing to help.

16:25 Emily: Yeah, that sounds really good.

Commercial

16:30 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

Tips for Home Loans with Non-W-2 Income

17:15 Emily: Okay, so let’s narrow down to the the scenario that we talked about the last time we did an interview, which is about a graduate student or postdoc with fellowship income, with non-W-2 income, and that a lot of lenders don’t understand how to deal with that. You’ve been working with these types of clients quite a bit over the last year. And so you have really figured out some things that how to make these loans work in some cases and what will not work in other cases and maybe in those cases, a co-borrower or something like that would be needed. Can you just tell me a little bit about, you know, this particular weirdness of non-W-2 fellowship income and how you make it work?

17:54 Sam: It’s definitely a tricky income. How I help make it work is I support all the variables within the fellowship income. I show that it’s the same field of study or field of work that they previously in. Especially in the offer letters, they usually always contain a phrase if the student remains in good standing, and the underwriter can say, well, that’s too much of a variable, we can’t accept this income because there’s too many variables. Well, I say well look at her transcripts, look at his transcripts. They’ve always been in good standing, literally forever. That’s why they were one of five students selected out of 400 applicants to get into this program. Yeah, it takes a little bit of storytelling, and the presentation is important, so it’s okay if someone who doesn’t have W-2 income, we treat other incomes just as fairly, but you have to know how to present it, how to over-document it, and if it’s too uncertain at the start, most lenders have a scenario desk you can reach out to who will give you some early feedback without going completely through the application process, completely through the loan process, and still having a little bit of a question mark about if you’re really approved. I’ve had our scenario desk, give me pushback on certain files, and I just asked, How can I support that variation or the uncertainty that you’re seeing in this letter because I can provide what you’re looking for most likely, I just need to know what that is.

19:38 Emily: Yeah. So I think if I can kind of zoom out from that a little bit. First of all, one of the things that you talked about in the last interview was that non-W-2 fellowship income is not going to qualify for an FHA loan. It’s just completely off the table. It’s only going to be a conventional loan. And what you’re talking about now is saying, okay, you know, PhD student or postdoc, you’re showing me your offer letter and you are looking for certain things that offer letter, like the income and also the number of years of guarantee, sometimes that’s in there as well. And then you’re saying, Okay, well for all the things in the offer letter that are maybe a question mark to the underwriter, you have now learned how to recognize some of those things, and you can start providing additional supportive documentation, that is asking the student or postdoc, okay, well send me your transcripts. Okay, well send me whatever it is, your work history. I don’t know what those things are. Can you talk a little bit about that guarantee? Because I know the guarantee is a very important factor when we’re talking about non-W-2 income.

Loan Types for Non-W-2 Income

20:41 Sam: Yes. So I want to answer your questions in the right order. One of the main critical points for this type of income is that it’s not recognized by the VA, Veterans Administration, FHA. It’s not recognized by USDA, and it’s not recognized by Fannie Mae. Your most successful application and loan approval is going to come from a Freddie Mac conventional loan, okay. Now you can do as little as 3% down for that conventional loan. But this is the key point that only Freddie Mac recognizes this income, per the lenders approval. Why these PhD students are not going to approved their first attempt with their lender is because it’s per the lenders approval, the lender can’t document it and approve it with their underwriter, then Freddie Mac will not take the loan.

21:40 Emily: So what you’re just saying there is that you now know having worked this type of income, this mortgage type is off the table. This mortgage type is off the table. This is the one that is potentially successful. And what you have to do is get your underwriters that you work with to approve that loan and then Freddie Mac will take it on, will approved it. What you have figured out is these little tricks and document support and so forth that need to happen for the underwriters that you work with, which presumably would be the same elsewhere, except they’re not necessarily as knowledgeable about this particular type of income.

The Importance of Offer Letters for Non-W-2 Income

22:15 Emily: Let’s talk more about that. I know that you’ve mentioned to me before, I think you mentioned in the last interview, that for this non-W-2 income, normally underwriters, lenders for W-2 income, they presume it’s going to continue for at least a while, even though we all know you can lose a job at any point. But for the fellowship income, they for some reason, don’t presume that it’s going to continue and they want to see a certain length of guaranteed fellowship time.

22:41 Sam: Yes. For conventional loans, we’re looking for three years of continuance of income. Now, I know it’s not fair because my job doesn’t guarantee me three years of employment in the future. That’s not the typical contract for all employment, its employment will usually. For conventional loans we want to see three years. I actually have a example that I’ve written up. It’s a mix of a few different approval letters that worked, that I had some success with clients in the past year. And I will say briefly that if your approval letter is more than three pages, there might be too many variables in your offer to get an approval.

23:36 Emily: You’re saying an offer letter, like the offer letter you get when you start grad school or start a postdoc position. This is going to be your stipend this along goes on for. This is a typical document, like instead of having a Form W-2, this is what a fellowship recipient would send to you. They would send you their offer letter and so what are you looking at in that offer letter that is like yeah, this is going to go forward or no, this might be a problem.

24:00 Sam: Yes, so what we’re looking for is the continuance of income, we want to have three years. We want it to state that you’re being provided health insurance, because that’s a really good sign shown you’re actually an employee, you’re not just a student. It’s okay for it to have a few variables in it, like remaining in good standing or making satisfactory progress towards their doctoral degree. That’s a good phrase in there, that’s fine. But when you have layers and layers of variables, like you know, making satisfactory progress towards our doctorate, you must take these courses or get this exact GPA or higher in these courses, must have approval from their supervisor for a continuance into a fifth year. Those are things I’ve had to get more information on because the more variables, the more uncertainty it makes the underwriter feel. And so that’s where it comes back to the presentation of the loan.

An Example of An Offer Letter

24:58 Sam: “I’m pleased to inform that you been awarded a fellowship in the first academic year beginning September 2019. In subsequent years, you’ll be supported by research and teaching assistantship. This Fellowship Award gives you deserved recognition for your accomplishments to date, as well as added independence to stipend and exploring your research interests for the first year. For the academic year 19-20, the stipend will be $3,345 for nine months. For Summer 2020, the stipend will be $3,475 for three months. This means you receive an annual stipend of $40,530. In addition, the award pays your tuition health insurance and health services fee. We are committed to continue this financial support for for up to five years, as long as you remain a PhD student in good academic standing.

25:51 Emily: Yeah, so what I’m hearing and I think what the listeners will hear is, that’s first year fellowship followed by W-2 income for the remainder, four years guaranteed.

26:02 Sam: Right.

26:03 Emily: That’s great. So that means in your world, that person would qualify for a mortgage during that first year, even though it’s fellowship, because their letter says, Yeah, it’s one year of fellowship, but you’re going to have after that this W-2 type income,

26:17 Sam: Correct. The most success I’ve seen with the PhD community are the simple letters that are less than two pages with little variable, that will show more than three years of continuance. And that’s a very simple approval for us.

26:35 Emily: And that’s whether that is fellowship income, or W-2 or a combination. If that’s what the offer letter says three years or more. That’s straightforward for you.

26:46 Sam: Correct. And that is where I’ve seen the most success with these doctoral candidates.

26:53 Emily: But still going back to your earlier point of if that’s not what a particular individuals letter looks like, still reach out to you, or another lender, because maybe with enough supplementary documentation, it could still go through, but it’s just going to be a little bit more of a process.

27:09 Sam: Correct. And, I mean, when I get connected with some of these department supervisors, I let them know, “Hey, this is what we’re looking for. Can you simplify this offer ladder for me, because we’re looking for something a little less complicated?” And I do like to tell my PhD applicants that, “Hey, I would love a shortened version of your personal statement. I want to be able to know a little bit more about where you’ve been, where you’re going.” And it always helps to tell a little bit of a story.

27:40 Emily: That is really interesting. That adds a little more detail to what you said earlier about the story and the presentation being what matters. That’s really interesting to me that you that you might include something like a version of a personal statement in this package that goes to the underwriter, that’s really interesting.

27:59 Sam: At the end of the day, I know I said this in the last episode, the last time I chirped in, but it does come down to one person’s decision. If the underwriter is comfortable, they’re going to approve you. If they’re not comfortable, they’re gonna want more documentation, or a cosigner, or something else to make it, you know, aboveboard.

28:20 Emily: Yeah, that clarifies. Thank you.

Final Words of Advice

28:23 Emily: Sam, is there anything else that you’ve learned about this fellowship type income that would be helpful to the listeners, with respect to getting approved for a mortgage?

28:32 Sam: I’ve learned that working with the PhD community are some of the best clients I’ve ever had.

28:38 Emily: Yeah, you’ve told me that before, and I really love to hear it!

28:42 Sam: Yeah. It’s really nice to work with people who are planning. It’s always best for a PhD student to be as proactive as possible. I’ve seen letters with three years of continuance, but they’ve reached out to me after one semester has passed, so now they only have two and a half years of continuanc, and that is a big problem. Whereas someone, if they have reached out a year earlier about their future, and how they’re planning to purchase a home when they were in a new area, that is the perfect slam dunk way to do it. Unfortunately, I’ve had to let some PhD students know that it’s not going to work out because their continuance, they’re under three years. And that’s going to be one of the major roadblocks. So talk to someone early, tell them you’re interested in a Freddie Mac, conventional loan. If they can find the right way to document their income and approve them. It’s happened more often in the last two months, I would say, with clients reaching out at this time of the year, when, if I had been talking to them six months ago, I could have had them approved.

29:52 Emily: Yeah, so actually at this time of the year, April 15 is decision day. Everyone has to decide what grad school they’re going to, or they’re supposed to decide. So if a PhD student is looking at that fellowship income in their offer letter, it says three years, they need to reach out to you sooner rather than later before that clock starts ticking, if they’re interested in purchasing within that first few months or first year or whatever, of being in graduate school. They need to reach out earlier. Thank you for saying that.

How To Reach Sam Hogan

30:21 Emily: Sam, you have not been particularly self promotional during this interview, and I appreciate that but I do want to say that you have been working with this type of client — people receiving fellowship income, also other types of PhD clients over the past year. I think you’re working really hard for them and that they should go to you, at least among getting a few different voices in their life, they should come to you. So will you please tell them the best way to contact you?

30:46 Sam: The best way to reach me is definitely by cell phone. Text is preferred right now because there’s a lot of volume going through the industry. My cell phone number is (540) 478-5803. And then my work email is a great line of communication, also. It’s [email protected].

31:15 Emily: Yeah. And we’ll have all that contact information in the show notes, as well. Sam just mentioned, I was surprised to learn, but even during this social distancing period, the mortgage industry is hopping, because interest rates are so low. People are really refinancing a lot right now, even if they’re not doing necessarily new purchases at the moment or not going into that process at the moment. But, you know, maybe in a few months or a year, whatever things will return to a more normal time and you’ll be able to move forward with lots more purchases.

31:47 Emily: Sam, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. And thank you so much for working with this population and being willing to, as a personal favor to me, to investigate this and take this on. I think it’s really fruitful and it’s been really great for my audience, so I really appreciate you

32:00 Sam: Thank you for having me on Emily. Always a pleasure to work with you and the PhD community. I’m just here to help, so if you need help text me, call me bother me on the weekend. It’s all good. I just want to make sure you all are seeing some success here while you’re getting your doctorates.

32:16 Emily: Excellent. Thank you, Sam.

Outtro

32:18 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How a Book Inspired This PhD’s Financial Turnaround

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Amanda, a tenure-track professor at a small college in the midwest. At the start graduate school, Amanda was disengaged from her finances and considered grad school to be a financial continuation of undergrad. She had resigned herself to being a “poor graduate student” until she read Ramit Sethi’s book, I Will Teach You to Be Rich. Slowly, the financial messages in that book replaced the limiting beliefs she had absorbed from academia. Amanda took small steps to improve her finances, starting with her bank accounts and opening a Roth IRA, and over time her strides with her finances became bigger and bigger. At the end of the episode, Amanda summarizes the financial success she is now experiences and connects it to the hard and slow work she did on her finances during grad school and her postdoc.

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Links Mentioned

Teaser

00:00 Amanda: I was initially a little bit resistant and I had the, “Oh, I’m a poor grad student” identity, I definitely did. I thought of myself as a poor graduate student and thought, well, all grad students are poor, that’s what it’s supposed to be, and I hadn’t challenged that at all at that point.

Introduction

00:19 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode 15. And today, my guest is Dr. Amanda, a tenure track professor at a small college in the Midwest. When she started graduate school, Amanda was disengaged from her finances. She had resigned herself to being a poor graduate student, until she encountered Ramit Sethi’s book, I Will Teach You to Be Rich. Slowly, the financial messages in that book replaced the limiting beliefs she had absorbed from academia. Amanda took small steps to improve her finances starting with her bank accounts and over time, her strides with her finances became bigger and bigger. At the end of the episode, we get a glimpse at how the hard and slow work she did on her finances during grad school and her postdoc is now paying off in spades. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Amanda.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:16 Emily: I’m so glad to have Dr. Amanda joining me on the podcast again today. She was first on in season one, episode 11 talking about geographic arbitrage, and her career transition from her postdoc into her academic job. And anyway, if you didn’t listen to that episode, and you have time right now, go back and listen to it. But today we’re going to pick up and talk about something that she briefly mentioned in that first interview that I thought was fascinating enough that I wanted a whole interview devoted to it, which is her financial turnaround story. We would definitely say that Dr. Amanda is financially successful today, but she’s not always identify that way, so we’re gonna explore that story in a lot more depth. Amanda, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast and being willing to share this aspect of your story.

02:01 Amanda: Thanks for having me.

02:02 Emily: So would you please tell us a little bit more about yourself, maybe for those of you who didn’t listen to the first episode?

02:08 Amanda: Sure. I am an assistant professor in a college of education. And I work primarily with doctoral level students. I teach courses on research, writing, qualitative methods. And then I also teach a course on information and information literacy and innovation. My background is in digital media and learning, and specifically video games and learning. A lot of my research has been around the digital games industry, and then how people learn from playing video games, both games designed to be educational, but also commercial games and game communities.

Life Before the Financial Turnaround

02:45 Emily: Great. And tell us briefly about where you went to graduate school where you did your postdoc and about your family, how that formed along the way.

02:53 Amanda: Sure. I guess the first thing is, after I graduated from college, I moved out to the San Francisco Bay area for a short time, and worked as an editor in the games industry. And that’s how I developed an interest in video games and doing work on games. But I was always a school person and I had intended to go back to school to attend graduate school. And so I decided at that time that I wanted to do something with games. When I was looking for graduate programs, really my criteria was I want to work with people who are doing interesting things with video games. I felt like there was a lot of emphasis on games research, on games and obesity, games and violence, really negative things. And I thought, you know, there are a lot of great things happening in this industry. And I felt like there was a lot of potential for games to be used for a more positive impact. And so my search for graduate programs was really just who’s doing stuff around games in their potential.

Amanda: I found a group of people at the University of Wisconsin, Madison called the games learning society group, and they were a group of scholars doing really fascinating work from games and learning perspective. These were people looking at games like Civilization and World of Warcraft and how are students learning about history from a systemic point of view from Civilization, and how are high school boys, who are really disengaged with school, acquiring literacy skills and critical thinking skills and math skills from playing World of Warcraft. That was graduate school. And then following, that I did a postdoc at USC, the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, where I worked on a project where we were looking at using a game to teach first generation, low-income students about the process of applying for college.

04:43 Emily: Wow, that is so fascinating. And I think along the way you met your husband, is that right?

04:48 Amanda: I did. So I met my husband Dennis in graduate school. His advisor was actually married to my advisor.

04:55 Emily: Oh, wow. Incestuous relationship.

04:58 Amanda: Yeah, and I was I think resistant to dating him for a little while because of that, but he just turned out to be too awesome of a person, and so we started dating in grad school. Then we ended up getting married during the postdoc, and he went out to Los Angeles with me.

05:14 Emily: Was he doing a postdoc during that time as well? Or did he have a different type of job?

05:16 Amanda: He was working for the University. I’m blanking on his job title. But he was working with the USC games group, teaching courses, and then also helping manage their tech program. So he was working more with students who are learning to be game developers. And then I was in the College of Education, doing work – it was a large grant with the US Department of Education is what I was working on.

05:38 Emily: Okay, yeah. And going back to that first interview, the transition out of your postdoc, deciding where to apply for academic jobs, all that we covered in the previous interview. So if people are interested in your subsequent career path, they can go back and listen to that. But today we’re going to be talking about your financial journey during that whole time. Can you start with kind of the before, when you weren’t feeling so financially successful? What was your financial life like at that time and what were your financial attitudes?

06:11 Amanda: I think it wasn’t even that I wasn’t feeling financially successful. I wasn’t financially engaged. I had this narrative in my head, you know what, I’m good at school, as long as I do well in school, and I work hard, I will be successful and that is something that I worry about when I’m done with school. Later on, when I’m an adult, even though of course, if you get a PhD you end up spending a good amount of time in school as an adult. But I had this attitude that money was something that I would worry about later.

06:40 Emily: I’m curious how that actually plays in because you had work experience prior to starting your PhD. Is that the same attitude you had at that time? Or did it actually switch when you entered graduate school?

06:51 Amanda: Yeah, so I was working. I did work full time as an editor after my undergrad, and so I started paying off my student loans. I didn’t have a huge number of student loans, but I had taken out some loans, particularly I took two classes abroad when I was an undergrad, and so I had borrowed some money beyond scholarships for that. So I started making the payments, and I just sent in whatever the minimum expected payment amount was, and wasn’t really thinking about it. I mean, I did pretty well in that I was an English major, who at least managed to pay my rent and make a living in San Francisco. And this was right around the time of the beginning of the financial crisis, too, so there was a lot of anxiety and I knew a lot of people who are laid off at that time. I kind of felt like, “Oh, well, I have a job and I’m paying the rent and it’s San Francisco, so I must be doing just fine or even really great.” Things like investing for the long term or bigger goals weren’t really on my radar. I was just sort of paying the rent and paying the student loans.

07:57 Emily: Yeah, well, given the the time and the place that you were in I actually think you probably were doing very well. But in graduate school, you had that same attitude of just kind of going along and school is your primary focus. Is that right?

08:10 Amanda: Yeah. I hadn’t really had a good understanding of how graduate school was different from undergraduate, and so I borrowed money my first year of grad school. I took out whatever loans were offered as a part of the FAFSA, even though I had a project assistantship that year. And it wasn’t until I was kind of well into that first year that I understood, “Oh, you can work as a project assistant or research assistant, a teaching assistant and throughout grad school, I had each of those roles. And that can be enough to live on.” It’s not an exciting lifestyle, but I hadn’t realized at first that I didn’t need to be taking out those loans. So I took them out, and then I just didn’t do anything mindful with them. I probably did a little bit of travel, I ate out probably more than I needed to, and just that money sort of trickled through. I didn’t blow through it right away or anything like that, or need to take out additional loans, but I just didn’t understand the ways that you could avoid taking on additional debt in grad school. I sort of treated it like undergrad, just not knowing how that system worked until I was further along.

What Sparked the Financial Turnaround

09:16 Emily: I see. Yeah, that kind of makes sense, actually, because you were thinking about yourself as a student again. I guess that’s part of what this podcast is about, right? Making a wider awareness known that graduate school should be handled financially completely differently than you’ve handled your undergraduate degree. So when did this start to change? When did you start to have a greater degree of engagement or awareness around your finances?

09:40 Amanda: Sure. So my boyfriend at the time, now husband, had started reading, I Will Teach You to Be Rich, a book by Ramit Sethi. And if you’re not familiar with it, it’s really a book that just sort of walks you through how to set up a financial framework tohelp you be successful. He talks about how to use credit cards strategically how to set up the right sorts of bank accounts — checking savings, how to get started investing. He was reading that book and we just decided to read it together. We worked through it chapter by chapter. And from there, we started feeling really motivated by by that book, in particular.

10:23 Emily: This is really interesting to me, because this may be a better question for your husband, but the title of Ramit’s book, I Will Teach You to Be Rich — how did you even have the idea that that book was for you, because rich was nowhere near what was going on for you at that time?

10:40 Amanda: Not even close.

10:41 Emily: Maybe it was the teach you, like you were a learner, you wanted to be taught?

10:45 Amanda: I remember being really resistant to the book because I hated the title. I remember actually making fun of it or just saying, wow, it seems really cocky. And there were parts of the writing style where I felt like it was a little more aggressive than really appealed to me. But I also found I was just kind of drawn in by some of the message. I was initially a little bit resistant. And I had the, “Oh, I’m a poor grad student” identity I definitely did. I thought of myself as a poor graduate student and thought, “well, all grad students are poor. That’s what it’s supposed to be.” And I hadn’t challenged that at all at that point. But I do remember being actually turned off by the title of the book, so it’s funny that you mentioned that. But he was reading it and it was fun to be reading a book together too, and having that partner to talk things through and bounce ideas off of, and then we were able to hold each other accountable to actually doing something once we had read through the book.

11:42 Emily: Yeah. So did you encounter any other resistance to that identity as a poor graduate student? Was that pushing back at all against the messaging you’re receiving from the book?

Mindset Shift

11:55 Amanda: Yeah. I came up against some limiting beliefs at that point. As I was reading the book, I started having these feelings that “oh, well, I feel like I’m starting too late” or “as a graduate student, I don’t make enough money for financial planning to be worthwhile, that that’s still not something I can do.” I was simultaneously feeling like I had waited too long and like I still needed to wait longer. And that was really frustrating for me, because I have the type of personality where once I decide I want to do something, I want to act on it right now, or yesterday. It was frustrating to me to start learning about all these things, but not really feel like I had the means to put everything that I wanted to into place right away.

12:38 Emily: Yeah, I can imagine that a lot of people starting to learn about personal finance in graduate school, from whatever source, can feel that way. And it’s to your credit that you kept engaging with the material, instead of just totally turning off and say, “Oh, I have to pick up this book again in a few years later on.” I can definitely understand why hearing the message, while maybe this is not what he intended, but to you interpreting as I’m already starting too late when you were probably in what your mid-20s or so?

13:07 Amanda: Yeah.

13:09 Emily: Yeah, it’s not like objectively actually that late, but when you understand that people who did not go to graduate school route can be working on this right away when they finish their bachelor’s or even potentially earlier, that can be really frustrating. And like you said, you have all these great ideas once you start accepting the messages, but still, nothing has really changed in terms of your means and ability to work on them.But still, you were able to start making some changes. Once you started accepting the messages, what did you do right away even while you were still in graduate school?

Small Steps Make a Difference

13:47 Amanda: The book actually had really specific instructions about how to set up — I don’t think he frames it this way, but it’s essentially setting up a framework for yourself. One of the things that Sethi talks about is getting away from high-fee brick and mortar banks. A lot of banks charge to have a checking account if you don’t have a certain amount of money in it. And for most graduate graduate students, those minimums aren’t necessarily realistic. ATM fees are things that just can kind of bleed through. He had recommended switching to an online bank, and at the time, he had specifically, I think, recommended the Charles Schwab high yield investor checking. And so we both switched over our banks, because I think one of us was with Wells Fargo at the time, the other was with Bank of America. We were with exactly those banks that he was saying, “you know what, these are just set up to make you fail. They’re never going to do you any favors, get out.”

14:42 Emily: I don’t think anything has changed in the 10 or so years since that point. I would still say anyone who’s a Bank of America and Wells Fargo, get out of that relationship ASAP.

14:53 Amanda: Exactly. And one of the things that I love about the Charles Schwab account and that I think is really good for grad students, especially if you’re presenting research, is you get reimbursed ATM fees from anywhere in the world. Any ATM fees that you end up paying while you’re at a conference, it can even be an international conference where those can be really steep fees, at the end of the month, you will get a deposit in your checking account that reimburses you for all of those fees. That’s a feature that I just really like, and it’s not a lot of money, but over you know, several years that does start to add up.

15:25 Emily: And I think that on a graduate students stipend, those $3 or $5 here and there — it’s a higher percentage of the money that you’re working with as a graduate student that it would be for Ramit’s general audience. Like maybe that tip is “okay, it’s a good thing for them to do, but it doesn’t make that big of an impact,” but for graduate students, coming up at the end of month with 20 extra dollars or so like that can make a decent difference in your life, especially if your savings goal starts out at that $10, $20, $50 level. That can really help you meet that

15:58 Amanda: Yeah and it’s okay if that’s where you’re starting. Another thing that we did is we set up higher interest savings accounts. This was when interest rates were really low. Right now it’s realistic to maybe get, at the time of this recording anyway, 2% or a little over 2% on a savings account. At that time, I believe 1% was the absolute most you’re going to get, and so we weren’t talking a lot of money, but it was the same principle. I was with one of those banks where I think the interest was under 0.5%, so even with a lot of money, you’re not going to be earning anything. And so, you know, with the amount of money that I that we had in savings at that time, 1% was still only earning us, maybe pennies, but a few more pennies. But over time, as we started saving more and built up an emergency fund, those pennies became a latte every month. Now it looks a little bit more like a dinner out, maybe a modest dinner out, but it’s something. I think it’s important if you can aggregate those kinds of small gains across a bunch of areas, then they do start to make a difference. It’s changing your attitude from I don’t care that I’m bleeding money a little bit here and there on fees and interests that I could be earning. It’s saying, I’m taking control of this and I am mindful of where all of those dollars go and how I can now be in control of my financial situation.

17:26 Emily: Yeah, I can see how this example of changing where you bank can be a really impactful psychological when at the start of a financial journey, like what you’re talking about, because it’s not like you’ve set a savings goal and that you’re feeling discouraged about that, because you know, you only make X amount of money. It’s something that you do have complete control over and it doesn’t cost you any money. In fact, it’s going to be bringing money back into your account, a few dollars at a time. I can definitely see how this can be a wonderful first step to take when you’re starting to take in your financial life. You actually just mentioned a term I wonder, based on our last interview, if you also listen to the Choose FI podcast?

18:07 Amanda: Definitely. What was the term that I used?

18:08 Emily: You didn’t quite say it the way they did — aggregation of marginal gains. I’ll explain that for the audience. This Choose FI podcast is about the financial independence movement. We’ve had a pair of interviews on that with Gov Worker in season three, so if you want to learn more about the FIRE movement, financial independence and retire early, you can listen that one. We also touched on it in Amanda’s first interview. But anyway, on this Choose FI podcast, they have this term that they’ve come up with throughout their episodes, the aggregation of marginal gains, which is when you just make a tiny little change in your financial life, like the one that Amanda just mentioned, of stopping to pay ATM fees or stopping to pay fees just to hold a small balance in a checking or savings account. Those are very, very small things to do. But once you add up ten small things or hundred small things, that aggregation becomes really significant in your finances. This can be that step one for your aggregation of marginal gains. So yeah, thank you so much that example Amanda.

Commercial

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Long-Term Changes

20:17 Emily: Anything else structurally that you changed around your finances at that time when you first started following the I Will Teach You to Be Rich framework?

20:24 Amanda: One other account that I got set up, which I think in the long run is going to have been really important, is taking control of getting started with retirement savings. Because I had opened the checking account with Charles Schwab, which is an investment firm, I also then opened a Roth IRA and I forced myself to remember that I had had some 401k savings from that editorial job that I had had before, but I wasn’t paying any attention to it. I couldn’t have told you how much I had saved. I sort of knew where it was. I still to this day today do not know how I had had that money invested at that time. So what I did is I opened up an IRA and I rolled that 401k over. And it was not much money, because I had not been — at the time I had been in San Francisco, I was proud to be paying my rent, I wasn’t worried about saving for decades out in the future. But what I did is I got that money to where now I knew where it was and then I had it on my radar to when I had windfall money from contract work or side projects that I was doing, I was like, “You know what, I can start to invest in a Roth IRA.” And that’s something that, sure, it would have been great to start at 18, but I can start right now and that’s still going to be really good for me over time.

21:41 Emily: Yeah, that’s amazing. I love that you specifically tied any windfall money or any extra side hustle money or whatever it was, you then had a place to put it. There wasn’t the extra hurdle of, “Oh, I have an extra $50 in my account right now. What do I do with it? I’m not sure” and it ends up just floating away somewhere you don’t even know where it went. You had then a place to put it. This is another great first step to take, is just to open an account, just to set it up, as long as there’s no minimum, or you can meet the minimum required to open it, just so you have a place about money to go. I think it makes such a huge difference that once you have that goal in mind, okay, any money extra money that comes in, this is where it goes. And it’s really easy to follow through on that once you’ve gotten over the activation barrier of setting up setting up the account.

22:31 Amanda: And both my husband and I, throughout the years have split that money between Roth IRAs and then that’s how we made substantial payments to our student loans. Both of us have done side projects where we might get a couple thousand dollars here and there, for consulting work or book projects or other things. We were very mindful that 100% of that money, we would just take it and allocate it toward one of those two goals. We had actually paid off a good chunk of student loans while we were still in school or within that first year, just because we were really consistent about taking that extra money and putting all of it towards either long term investments or towards the student loans with the highest interest rates, because at that point, we had pooled together all of those loans and actually started tracking, “Okay, what are the interest rates on each of these and which do we need to tackle first?”

23:28 Emily: Is that something else you learned from I Will Teach You to Be Rich, how to handle the debt? Were you following that part of earnings plan as well?

23:37 Amanda: Yes. And we were big fans. It was it was obvious for us that we wanted to tackle highest interest rate first. I know some people will start with the smallest loans, just to get those those wins, that sort of dopamine hit from getting a loan paid off. But for us even if the higher interest rate loans were bigger, we started with those.

23:57 Emily: So you’re going through the remainder of your graduate degree and you had this system for living off of your stipend for your budget and then pushing forward your finances with the extra money that was coming in. That’s how you finished out graduate school. Was there anything you did to keep yourself on this path of sticking to your goals and sticking to this idea of financial improvement through that time?

24:20 Amanda: Yeah. I mentioned that I have an “I want to do things now, now, now” sort of personality. As we transitioned from graduate school to the postdoc phase, we were in a higher cost of living area, but we are making more money. I felt like “okay, now we can start to do some more things.” There are things that we couldn’t do as students that now we can really tackle. One of the things we did, we were in Los Angeles, which means we spent a good amount of time in traffic. We were fortunate enough that we both were working at USC, at the same university. That meant we had a good chunk of time every day in the car and so we started listening to podcasts at that time.

Amanda: Really there’s a handful of podcasts that we had started listening to. We started listening to Afford Anything, Paula Pant’s podcast. We listened to The Mad Fientist, which is another financial independence podcast. We started listening to some entrepreneurial and side hustle podcasts. We were really just looking for ideas for things we could do and those podcasts really kind of helped keep us looking for new improvements that we could make and kept us motivated too. Sometimes the smart thing is not to change your goals, but just keep doing what you’re doing, but for me, I needed that motivation. I needed to be constantly learning new things and assimilating new information, and then making little tweaks along the way.

25:55 Emily: Yeah, I think those are all fantastic suggestions. I also love listening to podcasts. Not surprising, having my own podcast, I love the medium and listen to a lot of different ones. All the ones that you mentioned are excellent. We’ve already mentioned Choose FI, that could be another one to throw into the mix for the listener. Of course mine has a completely different audience than many of these other ones. If you’re already a listener, please stick with it, because I think this will help motivate you as well. And then the other one that I really like for motivation is Dave Ramsey’s podcast/radio show. You probably have to be in a debt repayment phase of life to really appreciate it, but he is very motivational, I will say that. That’s another idea if you’re looking for motivational podcasts.

Life after a Financial Turnaround

Emily: Let’s take the last couple minutes here, Amanda, and just give us some highlights of what’s been going on. What did you hit? You eventually paid off your student loans. What would have been the financial highlights of years, finishing out your postdoc, and then since then?

26:54 Amanda: We were fortunate enough to really get our loans paid off within a couple years of us graduating. That was a huge win for us. But of course, I wanted to keep that momentum going. Every time we complete a goal, I say, “okay, but we can’t lose momentum. So what are we going to do next?” And so we, we paid off the student loans and then we were kind of in that transition to a lower cost of living area, which I covered in that other podcasts, so I won’t talk about it. But that was another thing we wanted to do. My family’s in the Midwest, I had wanted to get back to the Midwest. That was something that we felt was important before we started a family.

Amanda: We started transitioning from high cost of living area to a lower cost of living area and that made home-ownership really feasible for us. We saved up and at the end of the last year — we weren’t planning to buy a house until this year, but we just ended up finding the right house in the right neighborhood, and we we had enough saved where we were able to make that happen. That was one of the latest things we did and now we just had our first child. I had a daughter in June, and so we’re wanting to get a little bit put away for her college already, too. We’re working on that and we’re kind of hoping to make a purchase of a rental property in the next couple years, so that’s another goal that we’re working on right now.

28:14 Emily: I think this is an amazing example of how much your financial progress accelerates once you have the higher income to be working with, and you can’t expect that to necessarily happen if you haven’t laid the groundwork earlier. If you do have the attitude of, “well, I’m still in graduate school, I’m still in my postdoc, I just have to worry about money later,” It’s not necessarily all going to turn on a dime for you when your income changes. But for you, Amanda, because you guys have been working so diligently on these various goals with whatever means you had for all those years, once you had the higher incomes, it was just like, boom, you knew exactly what to do with it. You knew where to funnel your money. You could make really, really quick progress and that’s the same thing that happened my finances as well — laying the groundwork during graduate school, once the income changed, the winds just come faster and faster and faster, even though they were really slow and hard fought in the beginning years. I really appreciate hearing this more about that “after” aspect of your story, after the financial transformation.

29:17 Amanda: I’ve heard that the first $100,000 is the hardest, for net worth. And I do believe that that’s probably true. I don’t know how well documented that is, but that’s something that I’ve heard before on podcasts and on blogs. It does seem like, it doesn’t really matter if it’s $100,000 or whatever it is, the beginning is the hardest to make progress because your money isn’t making much money, you probably aren’t making much money, because otherwise you could be making things move a lot faster. But it is true that if you’re just consistent about it, and have a framework set up and have goals that you’re working towards, it does really feel like your ability to do things does you know pick up pace a little bit.

30:01 Emily: Yeah, I would agree with that. I can definitely attest in my own life, the first $100,000, which I documented, actually, it’s in season one, episode one, of how we got to our first $100,000 of net worth, that was a long journey and it’s the next iterations that have come a lot faster, obviously. Now, I didn’t start very much in debt, we had sort of a slightly negative net worth, not huge. But if you have like a very negative net worth, maybe you’re working on over $100,000 of student loan debt to pay off, there’s sort of two phases to that journey — there’s getting to zero and then there’s getting to the first $100,000, and your first $100,000 of positive net worth will be easier than when you’re working to get to zero. It’ll be easier than that, but it will not be totally as easy as someone who started at zero, if that makes sense, just because of the way compound interest work.

30:54 Amanda: When we first calculated our net worth it was negative. It wasn’t significantly negative. And I do agree that if you are one of those people who happens to have six figures of student loan debt, you’ve got a different process to go through. Hopefully a soon to be future income that will help you tackle that with pretty good pace. When we first calculated it, it was below zero, and that was frustrating. That was definitely something for us that didn’t feel good. But we knew that we couldn’t get to zero and above zero without just tackling it. We were fortunate enough, right around the time we got married, we calculated and we were at zero when we got married, and we had a very, very modest tiny family only wedding in order to keep it that way. We didn’t want the wedding to drag us further down, but I think when we got married we are right around zero. So that was kind of a neat place because symbolically It was like okay, you know, we’re married and now we have nowhere to go but up. Let’s get moving on that.

31:57 Emily: Yeah, that sounds amazing.

Final Words of Advice

32:00 Emily: Final question here, Amanda, which is one that I asked all of my guests. Now, we’ve already heard you say a lot of financial advice during this entire podcast, but it was mostly you following the advice of others. I’m curious now that you’ve been through this whole process, what you would turn around and say to another early career PhD, in terms of your best financial advice for that person?

32:18 Amanda: Sure. So something that we do, and I guess this applies for people who have a partner, something that my husband and I do is we do a monthly finance update. It’s really just a spreadsheet where we keep track of our debts, and our savings and investments. We just go through and update the balances of all of those accounts every month. It doesn’t really take long, but it’s something that I look forward to because it means that we have a conversation around money and it means that at least once a month, probably more often just because it’s become a hobby of mine. But you know, if it’s not something you’re that interested in scheduling a regular check in, like once a month, it’s just a good way to make sure that you’re communicating financially. And I feel like that’s been really good for us because it means we’re making sure we’re still on the same page about our goals. And if we are starting to have different ideas, then we have a conversation about Okay, do we want to prioritize this thing or this other thing first?

33:18 Emily: Yeah, that’s a fantastic suggestion. Again, for anyone who is in a relationship with another person, however you handle your finances, you know, joint separate or Yours, Mine and Ours. I think that monthly check in can serve any one of those models really well.

Emily: Amanda, it’s been an absolute delight to have you back on the podcast. I’m so glad that you made time for this. Congratulations on the new addition to your family, both the baby and the house and the potential next rental property, all of it. It sounds wonderful, and it was really great to catch up with you today.

33:47 Amanda: Yeah, you too. It was good to talk to you, Emily. And thanks for having me on.

Outtro

33:51 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

Combatting Climate Change with Your Finances, Individually and Collectively

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In this episode, Emily interviews Jewel Tomasula, a graduate student at Georgetown University in biology, specifically ecology and evolutionary biology. Jewel participates in climate change collective action through the Sunrise Movement, through 500 Women Scientists, and at her university. Emily and Jewel discuss how people can combat climate change as individuals and collectively through the lens of personal finance, covering frugal and environmental strategies, socially responsible investing, and leveraging our affiliations with universities. You do not need to be a homeowner or in command of massive capital to explore the advice in this episode.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

climate change investing

Teaser

00:00 Jewel: I think people are maybe a little quick to discount the power that you have as an individual in these collective action movements and just being a body that’s part of this protest really makes an impression on the people who are making the decisions. People we’ve elected can’t ignore you when you were physically sitting in their office or physically outside the building and you’re part of a mass group of people.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the personal finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five episode thirteen, and today my guest is Jewel Tomasula, a graduate student at Georgetown University in biology, specifically ecology and evolutionary biology. Jewel participates in climate change collective action through the Sunrise Movement, through 500 Women Scientists, and at her university. We discuss how people can combat climate change as individuals and collectively, through the lens of personal finance, covering frugal and environmental strategies, socially responsible investing, and leveraging our affiliations with universities. Listen on for actionable strategies that do not require you to be a homeowner or in command of significant capital. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Jewel Tomasula.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:24 Emily: I am so happy that Jewel Tomasula is joining me on the podcast today. This is a really special one for me because Jewel was the person who worked with me on editing the podcast and creating the show notes in the first three seasons, so really happy to have her back on now as a guest even though she’s moved on from the editor role. And today we are actually talking about kind of one of Jewel’s areas of special interest, which is climate change and climate change collective action. And we will get into how this intersects with personal finance momentarily. But before we do, Jewel, would you please introduce yourself to the audience?

01:50 Jewel: Hi. Thanks Emily. So I am a PhD student at Georgetown University. I’m working on a biology PhD and more specifically my discipline is ecology and evolutionary biology. The ecosystem that I focus on is the salt marshes. And they’re an ecosystem that is really affected by human activities, as well as really important for us adapting to climate change in dealing with sea level rise and salt marshes are important for carbon storage. I look at the resilience of this ecosystem and so I have a very ecology perspective, but I also think about climate change a lot because of the setting of my research.

02:47 Emily: Yeah, that’s perfect. So very strong professional connection as well. What is it that you’re doing outside of your professional capacity in terms of climate change collective action?

02:57 Jewel: I would call myself an active participant in the Sunrise Movement, and also a mobilizer of the 500 Women Scientists network. I wouldn’t say that I’m like a big leader in any sorts, but I’m someone who closely follows along and participates when I can. With the sunrise movement, I participated in a December 2018 action, where we visited out members of Congress and talk to them about supporting a Green New Deal resolution, which hadn’t been formally introduced yet, but it was an initial talking about ramping up climate action and taking on more stringent goals than just the Paris agreement and saying we want a stronger plan for climate action. And then it was a sit in of Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer and McGovern — representatives of the top Democrat offices. That was a really powerful experience, just to be one of hundreds of people that joined together and are taking this action and really showing our representatives that people care about this. And they can’t avoid it when we’re all sitting in the hallway or sitting outside their offices.

04:18 Jewel: I’ve tried to keep up with Sunrise Movement and participate when I can, not that often because I’m doing my PhD work as well. Then with 500 Women Scientists, with other leaders in that organization, we wrote an op ed for Scientific American called “Scientists Must Speak Up for the Green New Deal” and we outlined why scientists should be interested in this resolution and should take it seriously and advocate for it. And then that’s the group that when I go to, and just participating in in strikes or protests, that I usually kind of group up the DC pod of 500 Women Scientists to go together to these actions and support the leaders. And I try to amplify in my offline and online networks what the leaders of the youth climate strikes…their message, and the Sunrise Movement message as well.

05:24 Emily: Yeah, I think you have this interesting crossover identity that you are, identity-wise, compatible with these various friend groups. And it’s nice that you can be an intersection point between them and be, as you were just saying, amplifying messages from one to the other. And back and forth. So that’s great. Thank you for detailing that.

Climate Change and Personal Finance

05:50 Emily: I think that now we’ll get to the point where I want to say a couple of words about why we’re even talking about climate change on a personal finance podcast. Because maybe, you know, you say, well, Emily, this isn’t a good fit. This is about money, why are you talking about this? Or like, Emily, this is too political, why are you covering this topic? You don’t usually cover politics. And that’s not at all my intention, but the reason that I think about climate change in the way that it intersects with my business is because within personal finance and what I do a lot is thinking about the long-term — in my own life and the lives of my clients. When I talk about like investing and the power of common interest, I’m throwing out 50 years as a timeline that we should be looking over to think about our money. And over 50 years, over many decades — as you said, we’re already seeing effects of climate change and certainly over to 2030 and beyond that point, this is something that I think should be factored into our financial plans. As well as whatever motivation you might have to care about this as a human being specifically, it intersects our finances in this longterm planning aspect and also short-term planning.

06:56 Emily: There is this wonderful sort of synergy between frugality and conservation, or environmentalism and minimalism. A lot of the strategies that you might use to reduce your carbon footprint or be more environmentally focused in general are also ones that dovetail really, really well with being frugal in general or being a minimalist in general and not consuming so much. And so I just think whether you’re focusing first on reducing your carbon footprint or focusing first on frugality, you’re going to end up probably doing a lot of things that will benefit both facets, just naturally by the choices that you make. Because, as we’ll go through in a few minutes, there are a lot of things you can do that are good for your wallet and good for the planet. That’s kind of why I wanted to bring this up because there’s just this wonderful overlap. Not only should you be thinking about your own finances and what’s best for you in the long term. Maybe you can also direct your finances and your life choices in a way that’s compatible with being more sustainable long-term, as well. Jewel, can you just start, just make a couple of comments here — what can people do as individuals to reduce their carbon footprint?

08:13 Jewel: I think you outlined that so well about how we have to think about our personal finances in the long-term and that’s good for us, that’s a healthy thing, but if we’re going to be doing that, we also need to be thinking about the state of our environment and how sustainable our economy is as a whole and how that might be changing over the long term. I would hope that our economy is going to look really different in 50 years, that’s what my big hope is. And so this question of the individual carbon footprint and your responsibility there, it really centers on the power you have as a consumer. That’s often what you see in articles. If you can just Google how to go green and you can find lots of options and lots of suggestions, but I feel like they hardly ever take into account what power you actually have as a consumer and your dollar. If you’re someone with a constrained income and you only have a few hundred dollars of discretionary spending every month, if even that, it looks really different than somebody who has a lot of discretionary income, and the power you have with that.

09:33 Emily: Can I just jump in to ask — something I see for example in these how to go green suggestions is make your home more energy efficient. And so I’m thinking, okay, well I’m a renter, I have absolutely no influence over this. When I become a homeowner, I would love to think about that, but it’s not something for me in the here and now. Is that the kind of thing that you’re talking about that people just have differing degrees of influence over their own lives in terms of especially how much discretionary income they really have?

09:58 Jewel: Yeah, exactly. I live in the state of Virginia and there’s essentially a monopoly with Dominion Energy and you don’t have very much choice over where your power comes from. You see a lot of these lists and it’s like install solar panels or make your home energy efficient. And I’m like, I live in an apartment. But it is really empowering to think about, even if you have a constraint income, where you do have power in your budget and your spending and trying to direct that as much as you can towards the way we want the world to look like — a more ethical world with healthier and safer communities. I think part of that is if you are living in an apartment, there’s only so much you can do, but maybe you can live closer to work and you can take out that transportation part of the carbon footprint because you’re walking or you’re taking public transit.

The Impact of Individual’s Choices

10:58 Jewel: With individuals, the big things I think for anyone are your diet and transportation. If there’s ways that you can alter those to have a smaller impact, a smaller footprint, then those are two big things. Meal planning is one that I’ve been engaging with more recently, especially since starting grad school. My partner and I found that that’s also part of frugality and really making a difference in our personal finance wellness. Meal planning makes a difference and also really reduces our food waste. It made a big difference in how much for wasting, not just in food but also in the plastic that comes with food. If you’re not having take out all the time or just getting pre-prepared meals, there’s like a lot of packaging waste that’s produced there.

11:52 Jewel: I guess something that I care about with having that zero waste is that I have really minimized how much I use. That’s kind of in that minimalism that you talked about. Kind of that buy nothing new or going to thrift shops or just holding onto things and repairing them if they break. There’s still clothing alteration shops and shoe repair shops out there and so that’s something that I utilize. Those things aren’t always the most frugal, necessarily. Sometimes it is cheaper to just buy a new pair of shoes, but if I have a pair of shoes that I can get fixed, then that’s more in the mindset. Just because it is just as cheap to get a new pair, they are still a good pair of shoes. Those kinds of things I’ve really built into my budget and I think a lot of PhD’s could think in those terms as well and just rejecting our disposable consumer system that we have. Those are some of like the individual actions I think people could look towards.

13:02 Emily: Let me jump in there because I have a couple of comments about what you just said, which I thought was great. In terms of like the food that you eat, you’re talking about reducing waste, which is awesome. I think I read, years and years ago, I think there’s a book called American Wasteland*, which is about food waste. And I think it said that 50% of food is wasted, like that we grow in America doesn’t get into people’s stomachs. Most of that does not happen in your refrigerator, it happens prior to that point. Again, not something you necessarily have influence on, although I guess we can choose where we source our food from. So maybe getting it more from like local farmers or something rather than conventionally grown agriculture.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

Emily: And also, I guess I’ve been seeing these advertisements for ugly produce and like similar sorts of services like that where it’s food that wouldn’t make it to the grocery store, you can still buy that and eat it because it’s perfectly good. It just doesn’t look pretty enough to be in the grocery store. There’s different sourcing things you can do around that as well, and you were just saying about packaging. That also reduces packaging, all that kind of stuff. You didn’t mentioned what you eat, but I know that one of the major things that you can do is reduce your consumption of meat and dairy, particularly beef. I think beef is one of those big offenders in terms of greenhouse gas emissions. Food selection can also go into that. And it’s really difficult to change your diet, I know that. There’s all kinds of things that influence why you eat what you eat, but to the degree that you’re able to, think about addressing that in terms of less beef, lamb consumption, and dairy.

14:35 Jewel: It’s a really personal thing, that’s something that I’ve experienced. I would say I’ve spent the last 10 years of my life trying to be vegetarian. And it’s a really personal and often a cultural thing too. Food is how you connect with your family often. I get really excited with plant based diets. I have a special spot in my heart for plants and so I think it’s so cool what we can do with plants. I have like a personal excitement about plant based diets and then from the frugal side, meat is often more expensive, especially beef. When we do have beef every now and then, it’s always what’s on sale. If we’re getting it on sale, it’s not really part of the driving demand for beef, in a way.

15:30 Emily: I see what you’re saying.

15:31 Jewel: Right. That’s thinking about what’s the power of your dollar here and having beef is part of it. I have looked into what they say the average American consumption of beef is and it’s a little absurd. It’s not healthy for us as a culture to be eating that much beef, for our own bodies, as well as for our environment. That’s very justified and that’s one of the first things to cede. But if you’re someone really constrained in your income then you’re probably not eating very much meat anyway and I know there are calls for meatless Mondays and stuff. When we do meal planning — and this is me and my partner — my partner is environmentally minded, he still has the attachment to meat and that cultural element that we’re kind of working through.

Jewel: I’ll just be honest there, I’m the one that pushes more for plant-based foods and he’s still like, “Oh, but the meat, it tastes good. And it’s part of how I know how to cook.” That’s just the expectation that your plate has like a meat and then a veggie and a potato. It’s like a very ingrained American conception. But we’ve been looking at our weekly meal plans and it’s only meat for one meal a day typically and often the meat is a small part of the meal. That is something that has changed as we’ve started being more intentional with our meal planning. If you just think meatless Mondays, that’s three meals out of your week that don’t have mea. I would say for everyone, if you can have two meals a day without meat, that’s kind of a big win right there and you’re probably a lot less than the average American. We definitely do need to change this expectation that every meal should have meat in it.

17:39 Emily: Yeah. And I don’t actually think that’s a historically accurate view of the American diet. But anyway, you’re right in that it is sort of in the cultural zeitgeist. A larger point that I wanted to make about what you were just saying is that, as you were just saying earlier, as a consumer and especially if we’re talking to graduate students and postdocs and people who have a smaller degree of control over their finances and their lives — make the changes that you can and that you’re willing to and do what you can. It’s okay if for the time being you cannot change your diet because of whatever else is going on in your life, or you cannot change where you live to start taking public transit. Maybe you can choose one of these areas to make a big shift in and worry about the other ones later. It’s good like to make even a small change, like you were just saying with meatless Mondays or having two meals a day that are meaningless or whatever. It’s not that you have to become completely vegan or completely vegetarian to make an adjustment from where you are today. It’s just about making some degree of progress in that area. Were there any other individual actions that you wanted to discuss?

Being Mindful with Where You Keep Your Money

18:47 Jewel: Yeah, I have one more that I’ve been exploring recently, but I do want to mention two articles that I’ve found can really be like light bulb awakening for the nuance of this issue. One of them is titled “What We Should Really Do for Climate” by Samuel Miller McDonald and that’s published in The Trouble. The other is “I Work in the Environmental Movement. I Don’t Care If You Rrecycle” by Mary Annaise Hegler.

19:16 Emily: I think actually read that one.

19:17 Jewel: Yeah. And honestly, anything by Mary Hegler is on point. That one’s in Vox. Those are two I think that are really helping to increase awareness and making you understand how constrained this can be and how to feel that individual responsibility but also to channel it and grapple it with it better and understand how income plays in and how we kind of just need the whole system to change. How trapped you can feel, but also what personal empowerment you can find in it. Along those lines, something I’ve been looking at just this summer that kind of just slipped by me before was where my money is actually kept in my bank — who I’m letting have my money while I’m waiting to use it. And also looking into investing and trying not to be a typical like 20-something grad student who just puts off investing.

Jewel: I have been using Wells Fargo just because that’s the bank that my parents set up for me and I never really thought about it. Even when I was learning about how Wells Fargo is funding oil pipelines and doing other shady stuff, I just didn’t think about it and didn’t think about taking my money out of there. That’s something I’ve like just done and I’m transitioning to using a bank called Aspiration. They are an online bank that tries to make themselves an accessible option that’s not using any of the money for fossil fuels or gun manufacturing either. Those are two of their big things and building that social awareness into their whole model. It’s nice to have a bank that’s like thinking about this ethically. They also have sustainable investing options. I have $2,000 in there now, but I put in $1,500 and so over two years — I think it’s a little over $1,500 that I put in, so it’s grown like a few hundred dollars over two years. And you actually get to set your own fee for that. They have what’s called a pay what’s fair fee. I had it set pretty low and so over two years I’ve only paid just under $10 in the fees and you could set it to zero actually, if that’s something you really need to do, just to start trying investing.

21:52 Emily: That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard about that model before. And even Wells Fargo’s actions that you just mentioned — I know that they’re sort of blacklisted because of their like consumer protection fails, but I didn’t think before about the way that they’re using just the cash you have with them at any point. I’ll have to take a look at my bank and see how they’re ranking on this metric.

Commercial

22:21 Emily:

Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Socially Responsible Investing

23:24 Emily: Okay, great. So you thought about where your cash is. I know we also wanted to talk a bit about investing, about what’s called socially responsible investing or SRI. This is something that you’re learning about, that I’m learning about right now, so can you start making a couple of comments about that?

23:41 Jewel: My understanding is that there’s a spectrum. Maybe it’s with typical investing group like Fidelity or Vanguard and they just have options that are more socially minded and you can pick those options as well, but it’s still focused on growing your money. And then —

23:59 Emily: Oh, we should say more generally that socially responsible investing is not just about these environmental causes. It could be about like social justice or working conditions or the sort of sin areas, like tobacco and firearms and those kinds of areas. Depending on your exact social preferences, you can make different choices within these groups. But continue, I just wanted to say that SRIs they cover more categories than we’re talking about today. But yeah, go on.

24:31 Jewel: Yeah, kind of this overall ethical minded. Like “Is what I’m investing in doing harm to other people that I’m not necessarily seeing every day? Is there harm or sketchy things being done out in the world with where I’m investing my money?” And that empowerment say, “no, l want my money to be supporting the things that do good in the world and not the things that are doing harm.” And that’s bigger or more encompassing than just environment or carbon emissions. It’s about how the people are treated as well. There’s someone more typical — I guess I don’t know if that’s more typical options, like through Fidelity or Vanguard. They’re big investing options. But then there’s kind of the filter out options since that’s what I have, where it’s still performing pretty well.

Jewel: Through Aspiration, they have these pretty accessible investing options. The deposit you have to make is pretty low, they have where you can set your own fee. I think for someone starting out in investing it’s something accessible, and it’s also passive, like you’re not having to pick out each stock that you want to invest in. It’s a diversified portfolio already, but they do have, I think I was looking at it, Amazon and Facebook are part of their portfolio. Some people might think that those companies are a little sketchy, but then what they do have filtered out are anything with fossil fuels and gun manufacturing and some of these other big sin stocks, as you had mentioned before. And then with socially responsible investing, there is the option to pick out the specifics stocks, but then it’s not passive anymore, and that’s something that I don’t have any experience with and it’s a little like out of my realm at this stage in my life that I would look into.

26:38 Emily: Yeah. Long time listeners definitely know that I teach the strategy of passive investing versus active investing. And so when we’re talking about getting into the socially responsible realm, it is a bit more active, because you’ve decided, you the consumer, and also the person running the fund or whatever, have to look into, okay, it’s not just a strict definition on what are the biggest companies in the US, it’s more like, okay, we have some criteria that we’re evaluating these companies on and some are not going to make the cut. So it’s a little bit more active in that sense, but it can still be a fairly passive approach if you go with a managed fund, because their criteria can be rather fixed.

Emily: And again, they’re not trying to market time and they’re not like picking and choosing necessarily individual companies that are in or out based on whims. It’s all based on sort of an investing plan that’s been laid out in advance. So it can still be a fairly passive strategy, in terms of the important aspects of passive investing, like being well-diversified and not trying to market time and so forth. It’s a little bit more active than like classic passive investing strategies, but still fairly passive overall, or at least it can be. And really I think that it’s so difficult as an individual to do all the research that is necessary to pick individual stocks when you’re trying to evaluate them on these metrics that we’re talking about, that SRIs care about. So I do think it’s a really good idea to go in with a larger fund where there’s a professional, a set of professionals doing that kind of research for you. And as long as you are selective about which fund you go into and make sure that it matches up with your values, then you should be good to go and it’ll be fairly passive on your end.

28:18 Jewel: Yeah, and I’ve been trying to think in terms of like, I really appreciate that Aspiration just has a whole values model behind what they’re doing, as opposed to just being a bank that’s all about the money, no matter who or where is getting hurt, or just what’s good for business.I feel like it’s part of that system change. Let’s have institutions that are actually accountable, and that care about the well-being of communities instead of institutions that are about the bottom line with profit.

28:57 Emily: Before we started recording this episode, I sent you another podcast episode that I had listened to from “How to Money,” which is another great personal finance podcast that I’d definitely recommend. Episode 97, “Socially Responsible Investing” is where they went over this model that I was really learning about for the first time, that there are gradations within social responsible investing. And I think you’ve already covered two of them — what’s called ESG, environmental, social and governance, and then also SRI, socially responsible investing. Those are more about…They’re pretty similar to like your classic like mutual fund where it is largely driven by what’s going to be best in terms of like the profit and bottom line for the investor, with differing degrees of sensitivity towards these social issues that you might care about. And then the final category was impact investing where the goal of impact investing is not necessarily get a great return, although maybe that will happen, but the goal is really to influence the world through with the companies that you invest in. The profit thing is secondary to the mission. Do you do any impact investing at this point?

30:07 Jewel: No. It’s a little out of my realm, as someone who’s at the grad student stage, where I’m just trying to actually invest instead of not investing in. I could bring up here that if you go into the real job that offers the 401k, that’s a great plan and you need to do it, but I am trying to take this time in my life where I don’t have that option, where I don’t have employer match, I don’t have the 401k option and it opens me up to try other investing options. I’m trying to look at it that way, but still with that passive investing, where I can just pick a managed fund and make contributions to it. That impact investing is interesting and I don’t know if I would manage to get there in the future, because you have to really pay attention and do research.

31:06 Emily: Well I think there could still be impact investing funds that you go into. It’s just that they’re going to be composed differently than like the SRI or the ESG types of funds. But I totally agree with you, I think that’s an amazing point that when you have an employer and you’re being provided a 401k or 403b, especially if there’s a match involved, you really do need to use that in terms of your own personal finances. That is the best place for your retirement money to be. But when you have an IRA, either because you don’t currently have access to a 401k, or you haven’t in the past, but any IRA money that you have is completely self-directed. So if you want to invest inside SRIs with your IRA money and do whatever is offered to you through your 401k, that’s a really good balance that you can strike as an individual. And as graduate students, postdocs, we start out probably only having access to an IRA. So the core and the part of your investments that are growing the most over time because you started them the earliest, those are the ones where you can have like the most discretion over where they go. And every time you leave a job, you close out your 401k or 403b, you can roll that money into your IRA and still have that total discretion over how it’s invested. I really love that you made that point.

Collective Action

32:15 Emily: We’ve kind of moved from talking about individual actions and diet and transportation and so forth to now we’re talking about investing, which is something you can do as an individual, but you’re really banding together with other individuals when you go into these funds and you choose SRIs over conventional investments. What are some other things that we can do as individuals but that is joining together with other people for this collective action around climate change?

32:40 Jewel: With collective action, I think the understanding there is that there are some decisions made at the collective level with the idea that they’re accountable to you as an individual. We have voted people in that should be accountable to us as voters or there are people working on behalf of the community that should be accountable to the community members. Whether it’s elected officials or a board of trustees at university or at another institution that you are associated with, those people are making the decisions on behalf of everyone else, but they should be accountable to you and you have power in holding them accountable. That’s where you as an individual have the chance to use your voice and to pay attention.

Jewel: Maybe starting with, since we were talking about investing, there’s also the question with universities and where they have their investments and their endowments. If you’re a PhD, you have an association within a university, whether you’re currently there or you’re an alumni and you have power in influencing how the university is using their money. Especially I think when you’re an alumni, when you can say, I’m not going to donate to you. Or you can contact the university, or be part of a movement. I think people are maybe a little quick to discount the power that you have as an individual in these collective action movements. Just being a body that’s part of this protest really makes an impression on the people who are making the decisions. The people we’ve elected like can’t ignore you when you are physically sitting in their office or physically outside the building and you’re part of like a mass group of people. Paying attention to those and joining anyone you can and just even voicing support and talking about it amongst your coworkers and your family is an important thing. If you have the right to vote, where you are able to use your vote, in the US, paying attention to what kind of plans the candidates have and how firm they are in their belief and voting for those candidates and then not stopping at voting. Actually realizing that you have power as a constituent to go and meet with them and join as a group to go meet with them.

Jewel: I mentioned being part of the Sunrise Movement action in December. That started with us going to our representatives office. I went with a group of people who are Northern Virginians to representative Tom Steyer’s office and we talked with the staff there. Then about a month later we got an email that our representative had changed his attitude towards the green new deal because of what we had come and said to him. You can all see more immediate change and impact just by like stepping up a little and using your voice and being part of movements. But you could also look in your communities and see what kind of like actions are happening there and any time that you can like hold systems accountable or change systems and think about how can your community be more resilient. I think it’s part of that power that is a little under utilized by people in their 20s. It’s definitely growing. And that’s really exciting to me but I think we could use more people. We could always use more people at least paying attention.

36:34 Emily: I like what you brought up there and it goes back to what we said near the beginning of the episode of like you as an individual can be part of groups at different levels. You’re a voter and you have representatives at both the national and also the state and the local levels and you vote for the people that you want to be in office. But then also once they’re in office, you still have influence with them, to some degree, over the decisions that they’re making once in office. They’re still supposed to be representing you. And then not only are you a voter, but you’re also a member of an academic community with your university, maybe multiple different universities. And then you also are a person who lives in your community and like you, you’re using your identity in terms of what age you are, to be affiliated with one movement. And also like you’re a scientist, you’re affiliated with another movement. I think we can all think about the various facets of our identity, and where we live and so forth, and the different groups that intersects with, and to see, as you were just saying, sort of see what’s going on in our own communities at these various levels and start participating as you feel comfortable, or as you see there’s something to participate in to make your voice heard. I really appreciate that. It’s not something I’ve been involved with personally to this point, but I’m definitely now going to be looking for more of those opportunities.

37:50 Jewel: I think just following your representative on social media or signing up for their email is really enlightening and just like a way to see what are they actually saying about these issues or what kind of bills are they introducing? That’s a really simple way that raises your awareness by a lot and shows you the opportunities to go to a town hall or to call them up. That’s one really simple thing.

38:18 Emily: The larger point around a lot of the discussion we’ve had today is you can evaluate where you are now and what you’ve been doing and you don’t have to keep doing the same thing. You don’t have to give into inertia of “well, I’ve always eaten this way” or “I’ve always lived in this place” or “I’ve always kept my money here.” Now that you are aware, if you weren’t already, that these various different areas impact how sustainable your lifestyle is or where you’re putting your money and what it’s doing in the world, now that you have a little bit heightened awareness about that, you can reconsider and make changes where you’re able to.

38:52 Emily: Jewel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. This is a real treat for me.

38:57 Jewel: Yeah. Thank you Emily.

Outtro

38:59 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How This Graduate Student Financially Manages Daycare Costs, Debt Repayment, Saving, and Side Hustling

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In this episode, Emily interviews Aubrey Jones, a PhD candidate in social work who lives in Tennessee. Aubrey is married and has a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old, which means childcare is their household’s largest expense. They discuss how Aubrey’s family found a great deal on their housing and how to minimize food waste with littles. Aubrey and her husband both have variable incomes, which play into their savings and debt repayment strategy; Aubrey’s main side hustle is a very popular and accessible one for graduate students. Aubrey and her husband have set their debt repayment and savings goals so that they can buy a home about a year after moving for Aubrey’s first post-PhD job.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

grad student daycare cost

Teaser

00:00 Aubrey: You’ll find the money for things that you prioritize, and I think that’s so true. In the past, we didn’t necessarily prioritize our savings, and so it was hard to find money for that. And now suddenly, we’re prioritizing it and prioritizing extra payments, and it’s because we figured out where we can cut and what we don’t need to do.

Intro

00:26 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode 18, and today my guest for this budget breakdown episode is Aubrey Jones, a PhD candidate in social work who lives in Tennessee. Aubrey is married and has two small children, which means childcare is their household’s largest expense. We discuss how their family found a great deal on their housing and how to minimize food waste with littles. Aubrey and her husband both have variable incomes which play into their savings and debt repayment strategy, and Aubrey’s main side hustle is a very popular and accessible one for graduate students. Aubrey and her husband have set their debt repayment and savings goals so they can buy a home about a year after moving for Aubrey’s first post-PhD job. Don’t miss Aubrey’s spot-on financial advice at the end of the episode. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Aubrey Jones.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:25 Emily: I am delighted to welcome to the podcast today Aubrey Jones who is going to be doing a budget breakdown episode for us and she’s got some really interesting elements in here. So, I’m really looking forward to this conversation. Aubrey, will you please introduce yourself, your career, and your family?

01:43 Aubrey: Sure. So, My name’s Aubrey Jones, and I have a husband, Josh. And then we have two little kids. We’ve got a three-year-old and a one-year-old, Madison and Simon. And basically, I started the PhD program with a seven-month-old, and when I finished my PhD program, I will have a four-year-old and a two-year-old. And I am getting my PhD in hopes to become a research professor, hopefully in R1, in the near future.

02:17 Emily: And what is your field?

02:18 Aubrey: My field is social work.

02:22 Emily: It sounded like you’re about a year away from finishing, hopefully?

02:27 Aubrey: Yes, I am a year away from finishing. I was able to take an extra year because I was awarded an extra GRA position for the fourth year. So, I was able to do that, which was nice.

Aubrey’s Household Income

02:41 Emily: All right, well we are actually in a very similar spot. My two children are the same ages, roughly, as your two. So, I’m sure many of your expenses will sound very similar to me. So, please tell me about your household income, your income as a doctoral student, and other sources of income in your household.

02:58 Aubrey: Sure. So, as a doctoral student, I received a stipend throughout my entire program, and it’s fluctuated from year to year, but it’s on average about $15,000 a year. And then it’s covered my health insurance also. And then my husband works in a job in which sometimes he will get additional money. So he’s a recruiter and he works on a draw system, and once he’s caught up, then any additional money that he gets goes straight to him. So, our household income fluctuates as well. So, usually anywhere from about $55,000 on the low end to $75,000 on the high end is where we fluctuate. And then, I recently just started teaching with VIPKid. I had been hearing about it, I have friends who’ve done it, and I finally jumped in to do it just to supplement some costs in our household because the hours are so flexible. And then as a doctoral student, I’ve also just picked up other side work with professors who had funding and were able to pay me to do stuff like that during the summer or in addition to get the extra experience and also the extra income.

04:18 Emily: So, the $15K stipend that you mentioned, is that just during the academic year or is that 12 months?

04:26 Aubrey: It is 12 months. So, you’re required to do about 10 hours of graduate research assistantship work, and then they break it out throughout the year as your payments.

04:40 Emily: Okay. So the additional work you’ve taken on within your academic role or to the side of it–you said during the summer, but that’s not because you’re not being paid during the summer–it’s just because you have some different time allocations or something?

04:52 Aubrey: Yes, correct.

Side Hustle: What is VIPKid?

04:54 Emily: Gotcha. So, I want to hear a little bit more about VIPKid because, similarly to you, I have been hearing that name a lot and I don’t know how new it is, but it feels new to me. So, can you say–maybe for someone else who’s interested in this kind of side hustle–what you’re doing exactly and what kind of the advantages are that you see?

05:13 Aubrey: Sure. So, I really love it. I actually just started this month, and there’s a fluctuation in pay. It ranges from $14 an hour to, I believe, $22 an hour. And the way that they do it is you teach a 25-minute class to kids in China and you’re teaching them English. So, you don’t have to know any Chinese. You just have to take some TESOL certificates that the company actually offers you for free and go through some mock interviews so they can see that you’re using props in your classroom that you’re using, it’s shortened TPR [Total Physical Response], but basically they want to see lots of hand gestures and pointing at your mouth and telling the kids, you know, listen. So, the 25-minute class is what you teach, and they pay you by 25 minutes. So, most people start out at about $8 per 25-minute class.

06:25 Aubrey: And then, assuming you get another class, that’s where it turns into that hourly pay of $14 to $22. But essentially you teach a 25-minute class, you get half of that $14 to $22 an hour. And you open up the schedule and you choose when you’re available. So, they tell you what the peak times are and you’re running on Beijing time. So, for people who are in Eastern Standard Time, I almost think that they’ve got it the best because the peak times are between 7:00 AM and 9:00 AM and then in the evenings on Friday and Saturdays from about 8:00 PM to 11:00 PM. You can teach all through the night, and I know some people do. I do not. So, I teach in the mornings from about 6:00 to 7:00 AM. Mostly because my kids are still sleeping, and sometimes I get the full time booked. Sometimes I don’t.

07:26 Aubrey: So, like I said, this is my first month doing it and I’ve made–well it’s not even the whole month yet. So just in the month of July, I’ll make about at least a hundred dollars, assuming I get no others classes booked.

VIPKid: Teaching English to Kids in China

07:40 Emily: I was a little bit confused about this. So, you said that you’re teaching in English. Are you teaching English or what is the subject matter that you’re teaching?

07:50 Aubrey: Yeah. So, the goal of VIPKid, the reason that parents in China sign their kids up for it is to help their kids learn how to be more comfortable talking to native English speakers. So, you are teaching English, but the whole class is also in English. And so, by proxy, you’re having a conversation in English, you’re trying to teach them certain things in English, and so you might be teaching them different vocabulary words that day.

08:18 Aubrey: So, this week I was teaching a kid “stamp,” so I had an envelope and I had some stamps and we talked about the word stamp and you say “stamp” and you make them repeat it twice so that they’re learning the word and then they’re learning in context. I teach primarily older kids who are already fluent in English. So, it’s more of making them comfortable having that conversation as opposed to teaching them new things. Now, some people teach younger kids–like three, four years old. So, they really are teaching them English words and what that means. And so, they might say “happy, sad” and have them repeat it back. So, it just depends. But VIPKid already has the lessons prepared for you. So, you go through it with the student and the older kids read most of it. The goal is to have them talking about 75% of the time.

09:14 Emily: Gotcha. And I think I’m picking up that this is a one-on-one interaction?

VIPKid versus Qkids

09:18 Aubrey: It is a one-on-one interaction. Yes. And there’s another company called Qkids which is similar, and they do anywhere from one to four kids in the classroom. And they actually schedule for you. Whereas VIPKid, the parents choose you as a teacher. So, it’s a lot more competitive to make a savvy profile that parents want to choose you.

09:44 Emily: I see. Well yeah, I can definitely see why this is an attractive, exploding side hustle. At any rate, as of July, 2019. So, thanks for telling us about your experience with that. Do you like doing this so far? Do you imagine continuing? And how many hours are you devoting to it per week?

10:04 Aubrey: Okay. Yeah, so I do, I really like it. It’s a lot of fun. It’s different than anything I’ve done in the past, and I will definitely keep doing it for the foreseeable future. Right now, the summer months are kind of slow so I’ve been able to just open up more slots knowing that I wasn’t going to see as many kids. But in the future, primarily in the fall, I will be finishing my dissertation so I won’t be devoting nearly as much time to it. But after I’m done dissertating, probably five to 10 hours a week.

10:41 Emily: I’m really glad that you brought this up because I can see how, for someone who wants a side hustle, this is a really, really accessible one. It sounds like you’re able to get started pretty fast too.

10:52 Aubrey: Yeah, it took me about two weeks to go through the whole process.

10:57 Emily: Yeah. Excellent. Okay, so let’s dive into the budget breakdown, right? So, we’re going to talk through your top five expenses. And I don’t remember if you mentioned, but where do you live?

11:09 Aubrey: We live in Tennessee.

Budget Breakdown: Top Expense = Daycare

11:11 Emily: Okay, great. So, top expense.

11:15 Aubrey: Our top expense is daycare.

11:18 Emily: Ah, new and different because usually this is rent, but I am not surprised that daycare is at the top of your list with two children. So, how much are you spending?

11:27 Aubrey: Yes. So, daycare is about $1,000 a month for both kids to be in daycare full-time. And so, our youngest kid was not in daycare the whole time. He actually just started going to daycare more recently. And that’s because, as a graduate student, I was really lucky to have such a flexible schedule where he could essentially just home with me. I wasn’t taking classes, I was working on my dissertation, and when I had to work on my dissertation or do extra work for my GRA position, I was able to do so in the evenings or on the weekends when my husband was home. But now that I’m in the final stretch of my dissertation, I need the distractions out of the house so that I can work all the time. So again, that’s new. When it was just our daughter, it was closer to like $600 a month, I want to say, for her. So, obviously not greater than our rent at that point.

12:27 Emily: Yeah. I’ve had a similar approach. I am the primary caregiver for our children and so we mix in childcare maybe as needed and it kind of fluctuates. It really changes a lot with how old your children are and kind of what type of kids they are. Whether or not they give you time that you can be doing other things or whether they require a lot of hands-on attention, and that changes with age. So yeah, I definitely feel you on what you were trying to do in the past and also your decision to put them both in daycare full-time now. Is there anything else, any other comments you want to make on that daycare expense?

13:05 Aubrey: So another way that we reduced the cost of daycare too was our daughter was in daycare full-time when we first started, and I was a full-time student. And then once my classes started slowing down and they were online, I was able to transition her to a “Mother’s Day Out” program, which is just a part-time daycare, essentially. And so that drastically reduced our cost. It was like $80 a week to have her in that three days a week and they fed her and everything. So that was great. And then in the summers we’re able to take them both out and just pay about half the cost to keep their spots if we need to or if we want to so they can go part-time and full-time in the summer for a reduced rate, essentially.

Does Your University Aid with Childcare Expenses?

13:58 Emily: And does your university help at all with childcare expenses?

14:03 Aubrey: They do not. I will say that my professors and department have been incredibly supportive of me having kids and just understanding that. There was one time I had to bring my daughter to class with me because there was like a nasty flu outbreak happening at her school and I wasn’t about to let her get it, let alone really let myself get it. So, one of my professors let me bring her, and I was so thankful. And she just hung out and loved it. So they’re like emotionally supportive of that. But financially, no.

14:44 Emily: Yeah. They help you to a degree, but not as much as maybe we would like. Okay. Number one expense: childcare. What’s that second expense?

Budget Breakdown: 2nd Expense = Rent

14:55 Aubrey: Rent. So, we pay just a little over $907 a month, so I rounded it up to $908. And we actually pay below market value for where we live. We have a two-bedroom condo, we’ve got a garage, we’ve got a backyard, two bath. And I think our neighbors rent for about $1200 a month. When we first moved here, we actually only paid $875 a month and we were living across the street. And then our landlords decided to sell. And so we already knew the neighborhood. We really loved the neighborhood. This might sound silly, but we knew our mailman and to us, that was just so great. Like, we really know this place. And we had some friends who lived across the street and they happened to be moving out and going somewhere else. And we told them, “Hey, our landlords are selling, can we rent from you because we know you’re not ready to sell yet?” And they said, “Yeah, sure you can just cover our mortgage and our HOA fees.” And so that’s how it bumped up to $908, but still below market value for this area. So we’ve been really fortunate in that.

16:17 Emily: That is an amazing deal. I have to say, not the best financial decision for them, but really great for you.

16:27 Aubrey: Yeah.

16:28 Emily: Yeah. And of course, you know, I actually talked about this with another episode I did in season three. I interviewed a landlord who was renting to people he knew from his program. You know, they were his roommates at first. Then when he moved out it was people he had known from that graduate program, and he just talked about what like peace of mind it gave him to know his tenants and trust them. And so, yeah. Maybe they’re giving you a good deal on this rent, but they probably also have a lot less stress.

16:58 Aubrey: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And some of it too, like we do have to take care of some things on our own just because they weren’t really prepared to be landlords. So, like we have to pay to have someone come out and fix our dishwasher, which isn’t a big deal to us, but there are just a couple of trade-offs to it. But again, it’s better than having to go out and move all of our stuff and pay. I mean, that would be a large amount of money to increase that we just weren’t prepared for or ready for.

17:34 Emily: Yeah. Well, yeah, it sounds like a really good situation that you’re in. And I guess the tip that may be applicable to other people is get to know some homeowners who are ahead of you. Yeah. I actually also rented a private residence from a former graduate student who was then in a postdoc somewhere else when I was in graduate school, I did not know her personally so I don’t think we got any rental discount, but yeah, you know it happens. People buy, and then they move on.

Commercial

18:03 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series as you make changes over the longterm. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part-coaching, part-course, and part-community. You can find out more and join the waitlist for the next time I open the program at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Budget Breakdown: 3rd Expense = Food

19:18 Emily: Okay. So, really good deal on rent. Excellent job on that. What’s that third expense?

19:23 Aubrey: This would be food. So, we are not super great at keeping our food costs down. That ranges anywhere from $800 to $1,000 dollars a month right now. And $1,000 is pretty rare. But, I was going through prepping for this and I felt like, “Well, let’s be honest, we’ve hit $1,000 before.” So, it doesn’t normally happen. We keep it closer to $800, and we’re pretty strict on that. So, we are feeding two kids. Our one-year-old, I swear, is just a garbage disposal. He just consumes everything and anything right now. And I was nursing him for about eight months, and then his appetite exploded. So, we switched him over to formula. So, we’re weaning off formula. So, that should start decreasing.

20:22 Aubrey: And then it also has a lot of our household stuff too, like diapers and pull-ups. We potty trained our oldest before our second was born because there was no way we were paying for two kids in diapers, and that was the best thing we ever did. She took to it really easily. I’m a little nervous the second time around that it may not go quite as well. And then we keep tons and tons of fresh produce in the house. But other ways that I do try to reduce the cost, things that we’ve been thinking about a lot more lately, especially once we started keeping track of our expenses, is food waste. And so that always seemed to really obvious to me. I would hear people talk about that and I would think, well, I don’t waste food. What are you talking about?

Strategies to Avoid Food Waste with Littles

21:09 Aubrey: And now I’m so much more cognizant of it. And my three-year-old will take two bites of something and say, “I’m done.” And in the past I used to think, “Okay, whatever.” And I would just toss it. And now, “What are you doing?” So, I just put it in the fridge and when she gets hungry later I put it back out on the table and say, “You can finish this if you’re that hungry.” And most of the time she doesn’t want to finish it because she’s not actually hungry. She’s just fishing around to see what I’ll give her. And then we’re really big on right now food exposure and trying to make sure that they’re constantly being exposed to vegetables. So, I’ve been buying a lot of frozen vegetables, which is really helping, so I’m not wasting the fresh vegetables. But I’m still able to make sure that they’re at least, even if they’re not eating it, they’re seeing it on their plate. So, that’s how we’ve decreased it. We don’t eat out. We cook almost all of our meals at home. My husband gets to eat out a little more for work. But yeah, I don’t see it going down much more, to be honest.

22:23 Emily: Yeah. I have to say, there’s again a lot of similarities in spending patterns between the two of us in this area because our one-year-old is also like eating everything in sight right now. She’s going through some kind of crazy growth spurt, which is actually great because that means that food that other people don’t want to finish, we can give to her, and she’ll finish it. So, that’s working out well. I also do the same thing. If my three-year-old doesn’t finish something, I may pack it back into the fridge because, like you, when it was just me and my husband, I was like, “Yeah, we don’t really waste that much food. Like we’re pretty on top of food consumption. But then you have a child who throws food on the floor, and like there’s a lot more waste that happens. So, we try to reduce it where we’re able to.

23:05 Aubrey: Yes, exactly.

23:05 Emily: And yeah, same thing about formula, which I hope is not a forever expense for us, but it’s pretty expensive in the meantime. So, yeah. Thank you for that insight. Oh, and the diaper situation. Yes. We also potty trained before our second was born so that we would not have two in diapers at the same time. Although we cloth diaper. So, for us it was more about not having to buy more cloth diapers to add to the stash. Right? Which is kind of the most expensive part of that whole process. So, yeah. All right. Thank you for your insight into that category. So what is your fourth largest expense?

Budget Breakdown: 4th Expense = Car Debt

23:39 Aubrey: So, that would be my husband’s car payment, which is $300 a month. And then we usually throw extra money at that. And that is one of the fewer pieces of debt that we have. And we plan to have that paid off by the end of the year, actually. Because he does do recruiting and he sometimes gets those bonus paychecks, we have just been able to throw that at debt. So, like last month we were able to throw an extra $1,000 at his car that wasn’t in the budget. So, that is always really nice. But we actually just had to get him a car because he had a 2000 Subaru and it finally just died while he was driving one day with our three-year-old. And so, it was time for him to get a car.

24:33 Emily: So, you’ve really taken that drive-it-into-the-ground advice to heart. You know, mostly when I talk to people about cars or I think about cars, it’s like we think about that long period, the almost two-decade period when you’re driving that single car. I don’t know when he bought it exactly, but the many years. And people are a little nervous about the endpoint. So, can you talk to me about when it broke down with your three-year-old in the car and how you handled that? It seems that it was okay, right?

24:59 Aubrey: It was a traumatizing week for her because my car, which is actually only three years old, broke down two days before, and she was in the car and we had to call my classmate to come pick us up. And then she was driving with dad and they were actually stopping to get her a treat because she had been such a good big sister. So, they stopped at Starbucks and they were in the drive-through and it just died in the drive-through line. And he had to push it. And so, twice in one week, this poor kid was in a car that broke down. So, that was a little traumatic. And she still talks about it. And this was three months ago, maybe. So, he had to get out and just push it by himself. And she did this cute little reenactment of him doing it. And I had to come pick them up, so I had to get the baby woken up from his nap and then go get them. And his car sat at Starbucks for three days until we could get a tow truck out there. And our insurance luckily covers the tow truck expenses. And so, he tried to put it on Facebook Marketplace to see if anyone was good at fixing cars or needed parts, and he didn’t get any bites. And so finally he just went to I think like an impound lot or something. But yeah, we had one car for like a month, so I was driving him to work and that’s across town. And so we had to really navigate our schedules. And then I tried to convince him to just have one car because we were making it work, but he wasn’t going for it. So, that’s how we ended up with a car payment.

26:51 Emily: Yeah, thanks for that story because we are also currently driving a car into the ground. And I do think about when that final end-point is going to be and what exactly is going to happen. But usually it’s okay. It’s a little difficult in the short-term, but it’s kind of worth it, right? To keep a car for a long time.

27:09 Aubrey: Absolutely.

27:10 Emily: So, what is the fifth expense on your list?

Budget Breakdown: 5th Expense = Husband’s Student Loan

27:12 Aubrey: That fifth one is my husband’s student loan. And that is $219 a month. And that should hopefully be paid off by the end of the year also.

27:22 Emily: Yeah. Let’s talk about that next and sort of under the category of financial goals. So, you’ve mentioned two types of debt so far. And so, what is your strategy with repaying debt?

27:35 Aubrey: Yes. So, the car and his student loan and my student loans are the only debt that we have. And so, right now, his student loan is bigger than his car payment. So, the car is our first thing that we’re trying to prioritize. So, any of the VIPKid money that I get is going to the car. Basically, we’re doing that snowball [method].

28:00 Emily: Yeah, I think it’s that snowball method. I was just going to say, you live in Tennessee, so this is Dave Country. [Do you follow Dave Ramsey?]

28:07 Aubrey: It is Dave Country. I don’t, but I do follow a lot of debt-free, financial independence people who have done Dave Ramsey. So, that’s where I’ve picked up some of our ideas and stuff. So, we’re really just attacking that car payment, putting anything extra that he gets to it. We’ve got a lot of financial goals, and this is why we’re not exactly Dave Ramsey because we’re also trying to save for a house at the same time. And so, our goal is to be debt-free from car payments and his student loans by the time we’re ready to purchase a house. And then my student loans are just kind of this whole other thing that right now we’re just unfortunately avoiding because I’m still in school. And we’ve limited using any student loans while I’ve been in my program except for one year when the baby was born and we just wanted to have that extra cushion just in case we knew that he would probably go to daycare. And we just weren’t sure, because my husband’s income fluctuates so much, if we’d be able to afford it every month or not.

29:18 Aubrey: So, the months that he gets a bonus check, we pay daycare out-of-pocket. And we pay most of daycare out-of-pocket and then supplement with those student loans. And then everything else goes to debt that’s not covering daycare. And then like I said, the VIPKid or any babysitting that I do or like I adjunct sometimes also, so that money goes straight to the car. So yeah, that’s our goal. Again, we think we’ll have that tackled by the end of this year just with where his business is at.

Importance of Prioritizing Your Financial Goals

29:52 Emily: I really love the strategy that you’re using. And I’ll make it explicit again. So, you’ve decided what your priorities are–car, husband student loan, your student loan–and you’re making whatever minimum payments are necessary on those and throwing all your money that you come up within a given month to that top-priority debt. That includes side hustle money. And this is very “Dave” like to have this clear prioritization and to throw everything you can at your top priority. And the reason that it works really well–and then I’m really glad you’re using this–is because it does keep you motivated to earn extra money in whatever ways you can fit into your schedule. As opposed to just like, “Oh, I think I should be side hustling in general. My budget could use some more padding.”

30:43 Emily: It’s much better to tie it to a specific goal. In your case, it’s debt repayment. And so, it really keeps your motivation high for pushing yourself because it is hard to be a parent and be in a PhD program and have the work associated with that. So, you’re doing a lot obviously, but it’s clear that you know exactly why, right? And you know, it’s a limited-term thing. As Dave says, “Live like no one else. So later you can live like no one else.” Which means, live like no one else right now. You’re hustling. You’re throwing everything you can at the debt. And then later, living like no one else is when you are wealthy and comfortable and the picture is rosy. So, it’s like a short-term period of sacrifice to really turbocharge and get ahead. I wanted to ask about your house downpayment goal. So, am I right in assuming that you guys will be moving wherever you get a job?

31:37 Aubrey: Yes, we will be moving wherever I get a job. So, our goal is to hopefully purchase a house about a year after. Just so we can get a feel for that area first before just showing up and buying a house and then realizing we chose the worst area to be. So, we do have money in our budget dedicated to savings. Which was something that we hadn’t always done. We used to kind of just, “Oh, okay, we have $10 left over this month, let’s put that in savings.” Where now we dedicate at least $200 goes to savings every month. So, that is obviously for emergencies or for this house if we can. And then, once his car and student loan get paid off, then the rest of his paychecks and stuff will start going to that down payment. And again, we hope that we’ll have probably $10,000 to $15,000 by the time we’re ready to move, is kind of our goal.

32:38 Emily: Yeah, that sounds really good. I think you’re really, again, on the right track by planning on renting for a year, wherever you move to. Because I totally agree. It’s really difficult to make such an important decision like where you’re going to live, especially in your case. You guys already have kids, so you know your kids are going to be in school, and like there’s just a lot of considerations there–to take that time to really get to know the area. And of course, continue to save up more money, for the down payment or whatever, before jumping into that purchase. So, final question here. What is your best financial advice for one of your peers? Maybe another parent in a graduate program?

Best Financial Advice for One of Your Peers?

33:17 Aubrey: Yeah, so I think my best advice would be to just remember why you’re doing it. Because we have tried many times to live like this and it’s always just become, “Ah, whatever we don’t want to.” And now we’re very motivated, I think, because of our children. Like we want to give them a house and like a nice life. So that’s my “why” of why we’re doing it. Why am I waking up at 5:00 AM to teach kids in Beijing English? It’s so that we can have this hopefully financial independence and teach our kids what to do with money. And then my husband has a good saying that he’s told his friends who are just starting out having kids and they’re freaking out about not being able to afford things. And he tells them, “You’ll find the money for things that you prioritize.” And I think that’s so true. In the past, we didn’t necessarily prioritize our savings and so it was hard to find money for that. And now suddenly we’re prioritizing it, and we’re prioritizing extra payments. And it’s because we figured out where we can cut and what we don’t need to do.

34:35 Emily: I think you are so exactly right with those comments, and they’re so insightful. I totally agree that you have to establish the “why” for why you care about personal finance at all, why you should care about your own finances. And then, once you know the “why,” that tells you your priorities, right? Top, second, et cetera. So like, it does make it so much easier when you know clearly what your motivation is, I think. Yeah. You and your husband–I think you guys are doing great. Really. Like, yeah, it sounds really good. I mean, I’m so glad you’re on a clear plan and there’s like a timeline on it, and yeah. It seems like it’ll all coalesce within the next one to two years with, you know. Hopefully, you’ll have the job you want and be in an okay place to live. Not much choice on that necessarily, but hopefully you’ll enjoy it, and the debt will be done, and you’ll be taking out a mortgage, and that’ll be a whole other ball game, and yeah. Sounds delightful, actually.

35:29 Aubrey: Yeah. And I will say, we’re very fortunate with his job that allows him to get bonuses and stuff that lets us pay things off, which is why it’s kind of variable and all over the place. But it wouldn’t be possible without his job, so we’re super thankful for that.

35:48 Emily: Yeah, of course. Well, best of luck to you and your family. And thank you so much for joining me today.

35:54 Aubrey: Yeah, thank you for having me.

Outtro

35:56 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Soon-to-Be PhD Is Facing Debt and Underemployment as He Goes on the Academic Job Market

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In this episode, Emily interviews Chad Frazier, a graduate student in history at Georgetown University who is about to complete his PhD and go on the academic job market. Chad’s career plans and personal finances have changed a lot during his PhD (and a master’s before that). When he received his stipend offer from Georgetown, he thought he had made it. But seven years later, the pay increases haven’t kept pace with housing prices in DC, and Chad has accumulated credit card debt. As he applies for faculty positions, Chad faces underemployment, and the grace period on his student loans from his undergrad and master’s degrees is quite limited. Chad argues that universities have a moral obligation to pay their grad students a living wage so that they can thrive academically. (Update: Chad successfully defended his PhD just prior to the publication of this episode!)

Links Mentioned in the Episode

PhD debt and underemployment

Teaser

00:00 Chad: I just spent the last 10 years at an institution, and I’m now actually financially worse off than I was when I started. At times that makes me really scared and angry. And that wasn’t something that I imagined it would be like when I would get to this point.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode 16, and today my guest is Chad Frazier, a rising eighth year PhD student in history at Georgetown. Chad and I discuss some really tough and even emotional issues in this interview including large student loan balances, credit card debt, underemployment, the difficult academic job market, and the feeling of being let down by your university. Chad shares quite openly the current state of his finances and career aspirations. We discuss what universities can do to alleviate financial stress among their grad students as well as what prospective grad students should think about when they look at a stipend offer letter. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Chad Frazier. You don’t want to miss this one.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:15 Emily: I am joined today on the podcast by Chad Frazier, who is currently a PhD student at Georgetown. And we’re going to be talking about the financial issues that arise, particularly as you’re getting close to the completion of a PhD. Right? You’re getting to to the end of graduate school, and what happens next and how do you handle that with your finances? It’s a really challenging situation for many, many, many PhDs. So Chad, I’m really delighted that you joined me today. And will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

01:46 Chad: Yeah, sure. First off, happy to be on the podcast, Emily. So just kind of a little background. I’m, like you said, just in the process of finishing up my PhD. I’m kind of planning to defend middle to late part of September. I focus on US history. Before that, I got my MA at Georgetown, which is the institution I’m currently at, BA at Dickinson. I guess those are kind of the broad highlights. I’ve been in the last couple of years, very active with the graduate union here at Georgetown. I’m part of the organizing committee and started getting more and more interested as part of that work in the last couple of years.

Evolution of Career Plans in Grad School

02:32 Emily: Yeah. Super interested here. Maybe not specifically about the unionization issues or your role in that, but just about your thinking around those issues as it relates to what we’re going to be talking about today. So, you’re almost done with your PhD. What are your current career plans, what you think you’ll be doing next, and also maybe how has that changed over the course of your degree?

02:54 Chad: Okay. Yeah. So when I started out the PhD, which would have been fall of 2012, the plan was generally that I was going to just tenure track, ideally at a liberal arts college. I was a peer writing tutor in undergrad and I really liked the experience of teaching. That said, I was kind of amenable to the idea of like maybe doing alternate career paths, kind of sidetracks, that led eventually to this final goal. But I can’t say that I really thought about them in any sort of depth. I think I figured, “Oh, I’ll just figure it out as I go.” So, like last year, I tried the academic job market for the first time, kind of a soft search. I didn’t get anything, which was not unexpected where I was with my dissertation. And then I’m going to try it again this year–be better, generally more competitive I think–and we’ll see what happens there. But over the course of the sort of last several years, I have just gotten more interested in other possible career paths. Because there are maybe some things about academia that I’m not always a fan of. And I think in particular, one would flag, like I mentioned, the unionization, maybe involvement with something to do with the labor movement, either as an organizer or researcher for a union. I’m also working with a professor here on building an online archive. So it looks at teachers in the labor movement. So it’s kind of up in the air.

When Does Your Graduate Student Position End?

04:18 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like you’re getting other kinds of work experience. Right? Other kinds of, or not necessarily work, maybe it’s volunteer as well, but other kinds of experiences that’ll help you figure out what you want to do with your career and maybe you know, land, whatever that next job is. So you said you’re planning on going back on the job market again this fall. When does your position as a graduate student actually end or do you have an end date for that?

04:41 Chad: So I actually just put in paperwork with the graduate school. So the way this basically works is, I will defend, ideally late September. Once I do that, and generally, I am sure this is true for a lot of people, the assumption is that when you get in the room, you’re ready. Then there are revisions, which part of that is what your committee says, part of it is shaping it to the graduate school. And, as far as the university is concerned, when I’m in that mode, I’m still a student. And it’s just then once those are done, you file it with the graduate school, and then you apply to graduate, which for me the plan is to do that in December.

Plan for Income Until Graduation

05:24 Emily: And so as far as your income goes, in the meantime, do you have an assistantship that’ll still be ongoing, or what’s the plan for the income?

05:32 Chad: So the plan for the income by sort of Georgetown rules is basically after seventh year, which my seventh year technically concluded in May, I’m not eligible for any kind of assistantship, whether as a TA or an RA. So, the work I’ve been doing with the online archive is paid out of an Institute here at Georgetown called the Kalmanovitz Initiative. And I’m figuring out how many hours they will be able to pay me for that. But I’m also looking for sort of part time jobs. One of the advantages of being in DC is there’s a fair amount of work for research with journalists or stuff like that to kind of make enough money that I can make ends meet until I can have something more definite.

Are You Considered an Employee at Georgetown?

06:20 Emily: So, the position that you’ve had at Georgetown, not your assistantship, are you an employee technically or is that like an independent contractor position?

06:32 Chad: So, I’m an employee. It’s routed through sort of the student payroll office. It’s a little complicated just because the way the rules are here with PhD students, we have to estimate how many hours a week I plan to work and how many weeks. And then they are like, “Oh, this is his stipend.” And then that gets dispersed out in biweekly installments. They changed that recently. It used to be able to have been, oh, just hourly, as long as I didn’t exceed like some certain restraints, that would have been fine. Bureaucracy.

What is the State of Your Finances at this Point?

07:05 Emily: Yeah. So, it sounds like you have a part-time position that’ll be ongoing through Georgetown. And then on top of that you do need to work a bit more as well as actually finishing up your dissertation and doing the defense and all of that. So, it’s a lot going on at this juncture. It’s a time of transition and a challenging time. So, can you tell me a little bit more about the state of your finances at this point? It sounds like, well first of all, is that income that you anticipate making going to be enough to sort of keep your head above water or is that still a question mark?

07:43 Chad: So, the way it’s kind of shaping up is that income that I’m going to get from the job with KI, with Kalmanovitz Initiative, probably I’m hoping that’s enough to cover rent. And then the additional work–the idea is basically enough that I can feed myself and pay for Metro and sort of living expenses and hopefully get enough too that I can start paying down credit cards a bit more. Because I’m very cognizant of the fact that, six months after I graduate, the student loans are going to start coming due. And that’s going to drop like anvil from heaven, it feels like. So, I want to have hopefully something ready for that where I’m not getting hit from two sides.

History of Chad’s Student Loans

08:37 Emily: Yeah, totally. So, you’ve mentioned you have student loans. Do you want to share like the amount of that, or like which degree you accumulated them from?

08:47 Chad: Yeah, sure. So, I went to a private liberal arts school, Dickinson College, for my undergrad. And I got lucky. I got a pretty good financial aid package there that most of it consisted of scholarships and grants. And I only had to take out, I think, anywhere from 10 to 20,000 [dollars]. Most of the student debt I’ve accumulated was because of my master’s degree that I took before I started my PhD. And for that, I basically have to look through the records and that’s about 80 to 81,000 dollars. So that’s, yeah.

09:20 Emily: Yeah, that’s going to be a large minimum payment. Even if you go one of these income-driven routes, depending on what you’re doing the rest of the year, assuming you haven’t gotten like a full-time faculty position yet. Anyway, it’ll be a large payment, presumably. So, that sounds really, really tough, but it’s also pretty common as you might imagine. Okay, so you have the student loan debt from your earlier degrees, not from the PhD itself. And then you mentioned credit card debt. Do you want to share the amount of that, and how it was that you accumulated it?

Accumulation of Credit Card Debt

09:54 Chad: Yeah, because I’m not sure. I don’t think I can pull the dollar amount right off the top of my head. But it’s basically–so, a little background about how a PhD sort of works at Georgetown. I was admitted with a five-year package, which meant that for three years there was a service obligation, which I TA’d. Two years was non-service. And then basically, for year six through seven, the department was able to fund me kind of on a discretionary basis. I got a fellowship my sixth year where I got to teach my own class, and then I got a semester of non-service. And then this last year I was on service. And I got a decent enough job working kind of as an administrative assistant to a professor. But the big issue was, that fellowship when I was getting paid was only nine months out of the year, which is pretty common for humanities and social science students here at Georgetown.

10:55 Chad: And so that meant that like, I tried to set aside money so I could cover rent. I would basically always try to find an extra, some sort of job either during the semester where I could save up money or a job during the summer where I could kind of live off of that. Invariably, credit cards became the sort of go-to during the summer. And the usual MO is, in the summer months, pay them down during the year, and then in the summer months make minimum payments until–maybe a little extra if you can–you get back into the fall, and then start paying them down again. And that worked actually pretty well the first couple of years. It’s just in the last two, three years, cost of living has been going up in DC with rent. And also with like, you know, last summer I had three really close friends who got married, and I wanted to go to their weddings and I had to pay for that. And I went to a conference in November that I didn’t get reimbursed for that was on the West coast, which was expensive. And it’s been hard to sort of do that, pay it down this last year where, come June, they were all maxed out, and I just was boxed in.

12:15 Emily: Yeah. I think what you’re describing is super common for PhD students, for people in their twenties and thirties, generally. I mean the nine-month pay, of course, is fairly unique to our mode of work, depending on what kind of field you’re in. But yeah, I mean it sounds like you had the right idea, right? Save up during the year, so you’re cognizant of that in advance. You’re trying to plan for it in advance, save up during the year, live on that over the summer, plus you work a little bit. But it’s really hard to do that planning. It’s just a really, really challenging situation to be in. So yeah, it sounds like credit cards came into that for you as well as the whole irregular expenses thing, you know, going to people’s weddings. I also really value attending weddings.

13:00 Emily: I love being able to go, I always had to travel. It was a challenge, financially. And what you mentioned, of course, the conference thing. We all know inside academia that conferences either are not paid for at all for students, or the student has to pay upfront and then the reimbursements, and it’s months later. That can definitely get people into cycles of credit card debt as well. It’s a huge, widespread problem, I would say. So, I’m sure all of this sounds very relatable to the audience, and I’m really thankful to you for sort of bearing yourself this way and sharing this because it is a really difficult thing to talk about publicly. So, thank you so much for doing that. Is there any other debt that you’re dealing with at this point aside from the credit cards and student loans?

Any Other Debt Besides Credit Cards and Student Loans?

13:41 Chad: I think those are the two biggest sort of issues. Like, yeah, there’s nothing else really out there. I rent so I don’t have to worry about like a mortgage. I don’t like to drive. I don’t own a car. So, it’s public transit. So yeah, it’s pretty much just credit cards and student debt.

14:01 Emily: Yeah. And it sounds like, given that you don’t own a car–which is one of my very go-to suggestions for people trying to reduce their expenses–you live in an expensive city. That’s how it is. You pay a lot in rent. You don’t own a car. Rent’s been going up, presumably, as is almost always the case. Stipends do not keep up with rising rent costs and yeah, it’s just a really, really tough spot to be in. I’m curious actually what your thought process was about choosing–and maybe it’s not really like a conscious choice, but like you have been accumulating credit card debt over the past couple of years. You know, at first, you said you were in a cycle of, “Okay, I build it up and then I pay it down.” But as you said, the last couple years, it’s been more building up than paying down.

14:43 Chad: Yeah.

14:44 Emily: Why did you go that route instead of taking out additional student loan debt?

Why Credit Cards Over Additional Student Loans?

14:50 Chad: I think part of that was I was just being cognizant of the fact that I had a fair amount coming in from my master’s program in particular. I actually had this conversation with my mom a couple of times. Where she’s like, “Well you should just put in for FAFSA and try to get more. You should try to get another student loan or something.” And I was like, “But I’ve already got at least 80,000 perhaps up to a hundred thousand, and it sort of seemed like I would be mortgaging my future even more so than I did. In the early years of the program, kind of you brought up the whole idea of stipends not keeping up–throughout sort of my time here at Georgetown, usually the stipend has gone up in each year by about a thousand dollars, which in year one that meant I went from 22 to 23 thousand. That was like a 5% increase. And that I think helped keep ahead of a lot of stuff.

15:50 Chad: And then, more recently it’s like now that last year–the university introduced a wage freeze this year, but the year before it was like–that amounted about 3.5%. I don’t have terribly many expenses. I used to joke that I only allowed myself sort of three very basic luxuries, which was food, like going out to eat. Not that I go out anywhere very expensive. Booze. I like beer, but I like cheap beer. Weirdly enough. And then books. And those, even there, I’m like, “Oh, I won’t spend more than like 25 bucks.” So, it was like, “Oh, these are really small things.” And it’s not like I was going on trips to Europe or anything that expensive. So it was like, “Okay, the credit cards just seemed more manageable.”

16:48 Emily: It really seems like just mentioning those little luxuries that you allowed yourself–which again, like you just said, did not amount to a lot of money–it really illustrates for me how large a chunk of your income must be taken up by your necessary expenses. Because what you mentioned as discretionary expenses have not been outrageous by any means of course. So, it just for me really illustrates this like probably 60, 70, 80% of your income has probably been taken up by like your rent and your basic food and you know, basic transportation and all that kind of stuff, which is a really, really, really tough spot to be in. There’s a benchmark that I like to reference which is called the balanced money formula, which I don’t know if it was created, but it was definitely popularized by Elizabeth Warren and her daughter in their book from, it must be 10 plus years ago now, All Your Worth*.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

The Balanced Money Formula

17:43 Emily: And they introduce this concept of the balanced money formula. And in that, a person’s necessary expenses–so you know, stuff to keep you alive, housing, food, et cetera. Also, all the contracts that you are in, your insurance, that kind of stuff–that should amount to no more than 50% of your net income after-tax income. And that’s to live like a balanced life. On a sustainable basis, it shouldn’t be more than 50%. If you go above that, it’s like warning, warning, warning. This is not going to feel sustainable for you. It sounds like you’ve probably been in that warning zone your entire time you’ve been in graduate school most likely. And again, really, really common for graduate students, especially those who live in higher cost of living areas. So, that benchmark can feel really discouraging to people who have lower incomes. And it’s just kind of something that like, I don’t know, just you need to acknowledge. It’s going to feel really difficult to live on your stipend if you can’t fit your rent and your transportation and your food under that 50% figure. And is that something that’s worthwhile to attend the institution you want to attend and do the research and pursue our passions in our careers. It’s a tough spot to be in.

Commercial

18:59 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series as you make changes over the longterm. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part-coaching, part-course, and part-community. You can find out more and join the waitlist for the next time I open the program at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Anything Else You Would Like to Share?

20:14 Emily: I wondered if you had any additional thoughts, feelings that you wanted to share regarding what we’ve been talking about. Your career transition upcoming, about the state of your finances right now. Anything you haven’t said so far?

20:28 Chad: I think in terms of sort of the way this has all been. Because again, I don’t come from money. My dad works as a supply manager at a college bookstore. My mom recently started working for Chick-fil-A. Like, working-class family. And there was even this weird stretch when I started the PhD in 2012, my dad who had gotten fired from his job like just after the financial crisis and just took the opportunity to go back to school himself, to finish first his undergrad degree. He could only find a job working part-time for a big-box retailer. And you know, there were moments where mom was calling me up and having to borrow little bits of money from me and then she’d pay them back to make their ends meet. And there was just this sort of sense of like, “Oh, I made it. I’m okay. Like this is not a lot, but it’s going to be kind of uphill, you know, all going up from here.”

21:35 Chad: And then now to be in this position where I kind of feel like at times I just spent the last 10 years at an institution, counting the same institution for both my MA and my PhD, and I’m now actually financially worse off than I was when I started. And I think at times that makes me really scared, and at times it really also bothers me–like now, my mom has to front me money for stuff like getting a new cell phone. Because my old one was four years old and couldn’t hold a charge for like a few hours–and angry. And that wasn’t something that I imagined it would be like when I would get to this point. I felt like it would be tough. There’d be an adjustment, but I didn’t think there would be quite this type of problem.

Supporting Family Members During Graduate School

22:27 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah, just thank you for sharing the point that you’ve gotten to here. I think that graduate students supporting their family members to a degree–and it could be their parents, it could be a sibling, it could be a dependent child–is something that is, in my opinion, not really talked about that much openly. But it happens a lot. And your degree of like, you know, maybe short term loans to your family that happened over what seems like a relatively short period of time is a more brief, just smaller kind of support that you were able to provide at that time, which is awesome. And other graduate students support their family members for a significant fraction of their stipend for years.

23:19 Emily: And maybe it’s remittances they’re sending to another country. It could be within the US. That situation happens all the time, too. And so, I’m glad to share your perspective on the podcast of thinking, “Okay, I made it into my PhD program. I’m no longer taking out student debt. I have an income. I’m making it. I’m living in DC. The future ahead of me is bright. I’m going to be a professor.” And then, you know, seven years later coming to this point, like, “I’m not so sure what my career is going to be. I have a lot of student loan debt. I have consumer debt. I don’t quite know how I’m going to be making it from month to month starting in just a few months.” So, really, really tough spot to be in. But again, I don’t think it’s that uncommon for PhD students. What has been your observation about how your situation maybe compares to some of your other peers?

How Does Your Situation Compare to That of Your Peers?

24:11 Chad: Actually, I think you’re right. In talking with my peers, there are a lot of similarities. Like you were talking about grads supporting other grads. I’ve got friends in my program, other departments that I’ve gotten familiar with thanks to my involvement with the union, where they’ve got families–or like one of my really best friends in my cohort was from the Philippines and throughout the program he was sending money home to Manila to help his family out. And yeah, it is very common. It’s just, the more jarring thing about it is that for me, on one hand with history, more and more of an awareness of like, “Okay, the job market has sort of changed. Higher ed: We’ve seen this sort of adjunctification of labor. Okay, we need to start thinking about alternative pathways or career diversity.” Different labels get used for different fields. But there really has never been this sort of awareness about the financial dimension. I think the only time it’s ever come up in conversations with faculty are like, “Oh, the stipend’s enough, right? You’re doing okay.” Or, “You’re not having to take out loans for this, are you?” And I’m like, “No, I’m living within my means. I’m fine.” And part of it is, this stuff is kind of new-ish. It’s not necessarily out of the blue, but it is new-ish. And for a lot of faculty, this is wasn’t their experience and isn’t their experience now. So yeah, those are kind of two broad impressions.

Universities Do Not See All of Our Financial Struggles

25:45 Emily: Yeah. I think what I’ve observed from maybe more of the university perspective is they track things like amount of student loan debt taken out. And so, if they don’t see a lot of, let’s say, PhD students taking out student loans–like you have consciously avoided student loans because of your existing level of debt–then they may not be aware of the hardships that people are undertaking outside of the university system, like racking up credit card debt or like borrowing money from other sorts of lenders or from family members or whatever it might be to again sort of keep their head above water. And also, the whole side hustling thing, which is super, super common. And I’m generally a fan of side hustling, especially when it advances your own career, like what you’ve been doing with your other position. Like that’s exposed you to a new area of work and maybe you’ll keep going in that area.

26:40 Emily: So, what can be really beneficial in a lot of ways, but it’s something that can be distracting from the degree, especially if a student has a lot of other responsibilities going on too, like they have a family or whatever. So, it’s not great if a student has to side hustle. It’s okay if they want to and they can balance it or whatever. But it’s not a good situation when they have to do it to just keep their heads above water. So, all of that can be very stressful. Of course, of course it’s stressful and can affect career decisions. And I think what you’ve been talking about–that we’re specifically talking about transitioning out of graduate school–the idea that your stipend is enough to make it on like a month to month basis is kind of one thing. But is it enough to actually bridge you until you get to the kind of job that you’re supposed to have as a PhD?

27:27 Emily: And we know as you were just mentioning from the academic job market that it can take multiple cycles of going through this before maybe you get a possession or maybe you don’t. And what are you doing in the meantime? Are you adjuncting? Like that’s not a really solid situation either. So, it’s not only a stipend needs to serve you in getting, you know, from month to month, but it also should be enough that you can actually transition into the next position, you know, and not have to take on let’s say a bunch of credit card debt or whatever it is in the transition. Like to have to move and to have to have a lapse in employment and all the expenses as you enter the job market. Anyway, that’s me going on for a while about that. So, these challenges are definitely common. What do you think are some solutions or better practices that either the universities could be doing or individuals could be doing or anybody else could be doing to kind of alleviate this situation?

Solutions for Universities and Individuals

28:21 Chad: Yeah. Well, I think universities kind of start from the top and work down. Because I very much do believe in sort of this idea of agency and personal responsibility. But you have an obligation to make the best of the cards that you’re dealt. But you’re also not the one dealing the cards. And I think universities really do have an obligation–for PhDs or master’s students who are working– to pay them sort of a living wage. And there are definitely forces that are nudging them in that direction. Whether it’s like Washington DC, which has passed a referendum that I think will eventually set the minimum wage to $15 an hour which has started leading new improvements for friends that I know or master’s students who work hourly. Graduate unionization, kind of nudging for upped stipends. Also just, there’s the competitive angle of this, you know, trying to get the best recruits. I know with Georgetown we want to get the best people and we’re competing against universities like, for example, Emory or Vanderbilt that actually pay better and are also in cheaper cities compared to Washington DC. So I think universities have an obligation there.

29:40 Chad: I also think sometimes with just like master’s students, it’s a thing that is kind of maybe a joke or a truism, at least with the people I’ve talked to here, that, “Oh, master’s students, your job is basically subsidizing the PhDs or you’re subsidizing the department,” so you have an incentive to bring in more people. And it’s not necessarily going to be a funded program. And you know, okay, I paid in my $80,000. So as a PhD, I don’t always feel bad when I go into the department supply closet and be like, “I need a notepad.” But part of the function of some master’s programs is to recruit people, like identify people that would be good in PhDs. And I don’t know, the sort of like treating folks as a revenue source in that way. It’s just deeply unsettling. And not that I necessarily have an answer to that, but I think universities thinking of alternative ways to handle that or to control sort of tuition is important.

Are Students Primarily Producers or Consumers?

30:38 Emily: What I’m thinking about when you’re saying this is whether the student is primarily a consumer of what the university produces or a producer of that work. And scholarship is part of what a university produces, right? As well as the teaching and everything. So, for undergraduates I guess we kind of accept that they are consumers of the university, and they or the government or whoever should be paying for them to get this lovely education. PhD students we generally see as producers. They’re either teaching and spreading their knowledge and mentoring people, or they’re producing scholarship that is worthwhile. Master’s students I feel like could fall in either category and maybe are viewed mostly as consumers, yet as you were just saying, especially if they’re going onto the PhD level and producing scholarship of their own, even at the master’s level, maybe they should be viewed more as like producers.

31:40 Emily: But anyway, all of this is so, so complicated. And I’m really glad that you brought up like the unionization movement and how that’s affecting this conversation, as well as the competition thing. Of course. I was just thinking that, if we are going to view PhD students as producers of work, it makes a lot of sense to pay people enough that they don’t have to feel stress. Because if what the university wants is a product out of a graduate student, whether it’s a class or whether it’s a paper or whatever, it makes sense to give them an environment where they can produce a good product. And paying them enough that they don’t have to side hustle and they don’t have to take out debt and they don’t have to feel stressed, and it’s not a cloud looming over them all the time. It makes sense to me in terms of producing the best product out of those people as possible. I don’t know what your thoughts are on that.

Quality Work Requires Quality Pay

32:30 Chad: No, I absolutely agree with it. And I think it’s interesting because for me when I first got involved with the unionization effort here at Georgetown–it’s really funny if like, someone had tried to talk to me and get me involved by talking about how low my pay was, that wouldn’t have worked. It would have just been like, “Well no I make enough. It’s not a lot, but I make enough to just get by, and I have a little extra if I want to go out to eat with friends, I can do it.” For me the issue was sort of more transparency about things like job listings and responsibilities. But kind of over the last two to three years, as I have gotten closer and closer to the sort of end, it’s now much more about sort of money and like the awareness that, like what you were talking about earlier, a stipend that just allows earning a living in a livable wage that kind of also gives people a cushion. I’ve been lucky. I haven’t had any sort of serious medical problems or family issues that would’ve required like a massive outlay at one time. But there are a lot of people that don’t have that privilege. So, that’s for me like the big part of the unionization effort. Now it’s just like, we want people to do good, so we should create conditions where they can do good. Like, can do the thing that they signed up to do, whether that’s research, whether that’s teaching.

34:04 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for that part of the discussion. I think we’ll just conclude the interview here by asking you what is your best financial advice for one of your peers? Maybe someone who’s anticipating the end of the PhD coming up fast.

Best Financial Advice for Your Peers

34:21 Chad: I think probably my best advice would maybe be more geared towards people earlier on, which is recognize that you’re going to change. When I started, I was 25 years old. $22,000 sounded like a lot of money. And like I said earlier, I felt like I kind of had made it. Recognizing that by about now I’m 31. I’ve had friends getting married and needs change. And seven years is a long time to be in one place. So, be aware of that, and when you’re starting out, make a plan kind of on that basis. You’ll hear some of the faculty here talk about, “You need to have like a 10-year plan for academic stuff.” Like when you’re going to publish and do all this sort of stuff. But I think also just the idea of having some sort of longterm financial plan, especially when you’re a graduate student and you’re dealing with pretty thin margins already.

Consider Long-Term Financial Goals and Changing Needs

35:17 Emily: Yeah. I totally agree and want to just underline what you said. To someone who’s in their early twenties or mid-twenties or something, that first stipend offer can seem great. Totally adequate. Fine. You’re looking at your rent, whatever it’s going to be fine. And then you get a few years down the line and your life changes and your career goals change and your responsibilities increase, often. I had another interview in season three with Scott Kennedy and he talked about getting married and having children during graduate school, which is not something that he had in his plan when he accepted that first offer letter. But it was, you know, over the years that he spent in graduate schools, something that came into his life. And so an amount of money that can seem workable at a younger age doesn’t necessarily seem so workable later. Not just because of the individual and your own life changes that you incur, but also as we were just talking about, because stipends don’t keep up generally with the cost of living and inflation, especially in these higher cost of living cities.

36:12 Emily: So, it could be that you’re actually falling behind in terms of an indexed amount of money as well as you yourself are getting older and having all these changes occur in your own life. So, it’s just an argument for prospective graduate students to be not accepting of something that seems “okay,” but really looking, as we were just saying, for competitive offers that will offer you well above the living wage for whatever area you’re moving to. Another thing which we didn’t discuss in detail, but tuition and fees–the responsibility that falls upon the graduate student for paying those–that can sometimes change. And universities who are facing funding shortfalls can change the package that you receive. So, hey, maybe your stipend doesn’t decrease or maybe your stipend goes up, as you were saying. Maybe it’s $1,000 a year, but maybe your fees are also going up by hundreds of dollars per year. That could easily be the case too.

37:04 Emily: And once you start in a program, you start feeling stuck and you’re invested, and there are sunk costs and so forth. And so, it’s just something to think about at the beginning to have more margin than you anticipate that you’re actually going to need because over five years, over seven years, whatever it is, a lot can change. So, Chad, thank you so much for this interview. It was really a pleasure to have you. Thank you for sharing so openly about your situation.

37:26 Chad: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was great talking with you.

Outtro

37:29 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the free music archive, and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.