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This PhD Student-Nurse Is Confident in Her Self-Worth

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In this episode, Emily interviews Brenda Olmos, a nurse practitioner and rising third-year PhD student in nursing. A first-generation college student who grew up without financial stability, Brenda was debt-averse throughout college and her master’s degree and started building wealth in her 20s through investing and real estate, eventually aligning with the FIRE movement. When she decided to pursue a PhD in her late 20s, she held out for an online program with an excellent culture and funding package. Thanks to her lucrative outside work, Brenda has continued to invest consistently during her PhD, although more slowly than she did pre-PhD. Brenda’s strong financial position and career optionality have set her up well for a fulfilling post-PhD career.

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Teaser

00:00 Brenda: It’s so cool to like see yourself grow in ways that you never thought you could. And financially like, okay, maybe I’m taking like a 50 or $60,000 per year cut. But in the course of my life, like is three years really going to matter that much, you know? And how much more will my life be enriched by having this degree? Like what doors will it open for me? Whether they’re monetary or not is not really the point for me anymore. And that’s something that I was able to achieve in my twenties.

Introduction

00:37 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 2, and today my guest is Brenda Olmos, a nurse practitioner and rising third-year PhD student in nursing. A first-generation college student who grew up without financial stability, Brenda was debt-averse throughout college and her master’s degree and started building wealth in her 20s through investing and real estate, eventually aligning with the FIRE movement. When she decided to pursue a PhD in her late 20s, she held out for an online program with an excellent culture and funding package. Thanks to her lucrative outside work, Brenda has continued to invest consistently during her PhD, although more slowly than she did pre-PhD. Brenda’s strong financial position and career optionality have set her up well for a fulfilling post-PhD career.

01:56 Emily: Would you please help me out with something? I want to record six podcast interviews this fall to be published over approximately the next six months. Will you consider being a guest? As a listener, I’m sure you have something to say about money as a PhD or PhD-to-be! Simply fill out the Google Form at PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ to get the ball rolling. Alternatively, if you have someone in mind who you’d like to hear me interview, please connect me with that person over email or Twitter! I really appreciate it! Let’s keep the podcast going strong! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Brenda Olmos.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:52 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today someone I know from Fintwit, Brenda Olmos. She is a rising third-year PhD student at the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center. She’s actually doing a PhD in nursing, so a very different kind of PhD student than we’ve had on here before. Not only that, her program is online, so she lives in Austin, Texas. So, Brenda, I’m so happy to have you on the podcast and get to have a deep-dive conversation with you. Will you please tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself?

03:20 Brenda: Sure! Hello everyone. My name’s Brenda Olmos. And, like Emily said, I live in Austin, Texas, and I’ve grown up in this area of central Texas and really enjoy living here. So, when I was searching for PhD programs, I was definitely searching for distance programs. And that’s the case about me being in an online PhD program. I grew up, like I said, here in central Texas, and I went to UT Austin for my undergraduate in nursing degree. Six years later, I graduated with my Master’s in Nursing as a family nurse practitioner. So, I had about six years of experience as a registered nurse at the bedside, which means I basically worked in inpatient hospital settings, taking care of people who were acutely ill. And then I chose to leave that setting when I became a nurse practitioner and I worked in an outpatient primary care setting for older people.

04:11 Brenda: So, I’m a geriatric nurse. And I found a scholarship in 2019 for geriatric nursing research. And I was kind of at a point in my life where I was satisfied with my career, and I found it rewarding. I found my work very gratifying, but I felt that my potential wasn’t really maximized in that role, that I made a difference one-on-one with patients, but that I wanted to make a difference at a larger scale. And in nursing, there are two paths for a doctorate degree. There’s a Doctorate in Nursing Practice, which is a DNP, and a lot of nurses do that because they want to make immediate change, like in administration or policy. And then there’s the PhD, which is the Doctor of Philosophy. And that’s more of a research-based doctorate, like most other PhDs in which you focus on generating new knowledge and you learn the research process.

05:07 Brenda: And I actually had really great mentors, which caused me to lean towards the PhD. And I chose the PhD in nursing because I felt that I wanted to have the doctorate that was universally recognized as a terminal degree and as a doctorate, whereas a DNP is very specific to nursing. I wanted to have something that, you know, the three letters that mean something to everybody <laugh> in the world, right? So, that’s kind of been my trajectory. I worked as a nurse practitioner for three years, full-time from 2017 to 2020. And then in 2020, I had been accepted to the PhD program. I was still kind of on the fence about it because I was making six figures as a nurse practitioner. And even though I didn’t know at the time that I had won this scholarship, I was like, I don’t know, this is a big leap to take. And then the pandemic hit and that took away so much of the joy of my work. And so much of the compensation that I realized I’m ready to go do something different. So, I’ve been in my PhD program since August of 2020. And like you said, I’m going into my third year now.

06:13 Emily: Wow. I love when I get someone on the podcast who has really, really thought deeply about their career and the trajectory of it and chosen, after all of that, to go into a PhD program. I don’t want be, you know, too critical of people who went like directly from undergrad down that path. I went almost directly from undergrad, but I just think it takes on a different tone. You have more focus in your research usually with all that like background work experience, and especially for you having a very, you know, very solid, super lucrative like career leading into that and you just really thought about, well, what do I want in my life? How do I want to be spending my time? That’s actually a lot of what we’ll be talking about today.

06:51 Emily: And I just want to kind of frame this for the listener a little bit that you know, Brenda’s had, as we just said of really different career trajectory than probably most people who are listening, probably the vast majority of people who are listening. And so once we get to start, you know, talking about Brenda’s finances, you’re going to see a pretty rosy picture. And it is of course, largely due to having that career in her twenties. But I don’t want you to like dismiss this episode as like, you’re never going to learn anything from it because you’re not in the same kind of position that Brenda was, because I still think there’s going to be something here, some strategy, some mindset, especially, that you can learn from. So, keep with us even though it may be a little bit of a different kind of story.

07:29 Brenda: And I do want to add to that that not every nurse is in my position, right? Like I had a really great scholarship for undergrad. Probably about 75% of my undergrad degree was paid for through scholarships and grants. I paid for my master’s degree, partially through hospital tuition reimbursement, and partially by working full-time. But I had classmates who took out a hundred thousand dollars for two years of their master’s program, and they’re paying that off now, right? So, I just want to be transparent about the fact that like, don’t go up to every nurse and be like, oh my God, you have no debt and you make a ton of money. Like, no, I was very strategic about the way that I got my education and I was always debt-averse. And so, I think that’s also important to point out.

Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE)

08:14 Emily: Yeah. Because I next want to kind of talk about you discovering the FIRE movement, which you did prior to starting the PhD program, but you had already, as you just said, taken some, you know, FIRE-like steps leading up to that, by being debt-averse, by working a lot while you’re in school, by choosing an employer who’s going to give you tuition reimbursement and so forth. So like, you were already setting yourself up well financially, even if you hadn’t, you know, discovered that particular movement. But let’s go to that like moment when you discovered the FIRE movement and what appealed to you about it? Like, why did you decide to start going that route?

08:45 Brenda: Yeah, I think a lot of it was rooted in, like for many of us, the way that we grew up around money, right? Like the beliefs that were planted in our minds as young kids. And for me, and I’ve talked about this in BiggerPockets and in some other podcasts, is that I had so much financial instability growing up and I knew so much about my parents’ finances and I knew the lows and I knew the highs. And I had kind of, maybe not consciously, but unconsciously decided that I was going to be stable, that my adult life was not going to be a roller coaster of emotions, secondary to my financial situation. And so, I think that’s why FIRE appealed to me because it was like, oh, I don’t just have to be stable. Like, I can be free. <Laugh>, you know, it’s like, there’s one extreme where you’re tied to the ball and chain, there’s the middle ground where you’re stable and you’re working, you’re saving, maybe you’re investing. And then there’s financially independent where no matter what you do, whether you work or you don’t work, you’re okay, right? So, I found out about it through some podcasts, StackingBenjamins, Afford Anything, Earn and Invest. And I just started listening and I was like, wow, there’s a lot I can do with some money I have saved up. Or like, maybe I should buy a property, you know? And that’s kind of how it all took off.

10:13 Emily: I think we’re going to get here, like later in the interview, but this like really interesting overlap in your story between pursuing FIRE and pursuing the PhD, and like the time freedom that FIRE can give you to then apply it to your academic interest. Even if those interests don’t pay as well as other career paths, perhaps, that were available to you. So, I really hope, yeah, we pull that out later in the interview. So, give me a couple, like, you know, mechanical things that you did in those early years of FIRE. You mentioned, oh, maybe I should consider buying a property. Like, what were some things that you did that were deviations from the path that you were on before, once you learned about FIRE?

10:49 Brenda: Right. So, I started investing in a brokerage account, which I had never done before. Like the thought of investing in the stock market was really foreign to me. I knew that my parents had 401(k)s, but I didn’t know that that was investing in the stock market. And so, I started doing research on that. And I talk about this on the podcast I have with my friend, Minority Millennial Money, about how my first experience into investing was like going to Wells Fargo and having an advisor there telling me that I needed at least $25,000 to like open a portfolio <laugh> and, you know, I look back on that and I did it. But I look back on that and I’m like, oh, I was so naive, you know? And now I know so much more and eventually, I transferred it out of Wells Fargo, but so the first thing was investing, and the second thing was buying a home.

House Hacking

11:40 Brenda: First, it was a small condo in 2017. Prior to that, I had kept my living expenses low because I just lived with a friend who owned a home and I rented a room from her for $600 a month, right? So, for Austin, even seven years ago, that was really cheap. So, and I didn’t, I don’t mind living with people, but it was nice to have my own place when I bought a condo in 2017. And then in 2019, I bought a single-family home and I rented out the condo. And so, now I have both.

12:11 Emily: So, let’s see, in 2019 you bought the single-family home, in 2020, you started the PhD program. So, are you still living in that single-family home? Or did you move again?

12:19 Brenda: Yeah, and I house hack it. So, I mean, house hacking is really just having roommates, right? So, basically, I started having travel nurses stay with me so that I didn’t have a permanent person. I just kind of had a nurse house. And so, I really enjoyed that. And there was a little bit of a lull there when COVID hit because many of their contracts got canceled. And so, I was at a critical point where I was like, I’m quitting my job. I have this house to take care of and the income may not be there, but it ended up working out. And hosting travel nurses is really awesome.

12:59 Emily: Yeah. This strategy of house hacking is one that I have given some air time to in the past and I’m really excited about for PhD students, because for that stage of life, it’s already really normalized to live with roommates. And so, if you have the financial wherewithal to be able to purchase, be the owner and be the landlord, it can like really radically transform your finances. So, so glad to hear that you were taking advantage of that strategy even before starting the PhD.

Choosing a Supportive PhD Program

13:22 Emily: So, we kind of already talked about like, why you wanted to start the PhD, you know, why you thought it was the best move for your career. Did you want to add any more details about, I don’t know, that particular program or anything else about your, you know, deciding to go down that career?

13:35 Brenda: Yeah. And, you know, we have met over Financial Twitter and there’s also Academic Twitter. And on Academic Twitter, I see so many horror stories of like really difficult programs, really toxic environments. And I was like, A) I don’t have to do this. So, I am not going to go to a program like that. And B) What if I found a really great program, you know? And so, I just created a spreadsheet with all the schools I was looking at. And this particular program, the director called me, she wanted to talk, she was warm, she was encouraging. And she was genuinely interested in me, you know? And I was like, wow, that’s really special. Whereas other schools like just sent me computer-generated emails, you know? And I was like, okay. So, like my email just went into like a black hole. So, that was important to me, especially because I know that people don’t know this, you know, people outside of nursing don’t know this, but nursing academia has a really negative reputation for being very toxic, very discouraging, not supportive, hazing, in a sense.

14:44 Brenda: And it’s especially prominent at the graduate, you know, and doctoral level. So, I was like, I don’t need that in my life. So, I’m going to look for a program where I feel like it would be a good experience. And I found that, and I was like, okay, I could do this here. So, that was important to me. And also, it was important to me that, if I was going to take this big financial hit, that it was going to be for something worth it. And like you said, for me, the PhD is really something I’m doing for personal enrichment, right? There’s no guarantee that I’m going to make more money when I’m done. You know, I made almost $200,000 in 2019 just working a little bit extra. If I get a job that makes me that much post-PhD, I’ll be really excited. But for me, it was also really important to see people that look like me because I’m a Latina nurse practitioner. And I just could count on one hand how many people who were nurses who had PhDs, who were Hispanic, that I knew, you know? And so, in a field that’s predominantly or 95% white women, I thought it was important to increase the representation.

16:00 Emily: Yeah. I love all those overlapping motivations. And I love, it sounds like you were patient, right? Like you were willing to be really selective about the program that you went to. And I love that little note about like, oh, this person actually called me, like, I talked to this person over the phone instead of just email correspondence and just form letter stuff. And I love that like, you looked at this field, like you said, it has this bad reputation, and you said to yourself, I don’t need to do this. And I’m only going to do it if I can find the program that is going to be really supportive of me. It’s the right fit for me. And even if you know, Academic Twitter and everything else is telling you, no, no, everything’s terrible. It never, it doesn’t exist anywhere. You were like, no, I’m going to hold out and find that perfect program for me. And you did. So like, I just say that to point out that, like, that’s a limiting belief that you could have had. Like, you could have told yourself, oh, I’m never going to find a home. It doesn’t matter. People like me never, you know, get into this level of nursing or succeed or whatever, whatever. And you chose to not have that limiting belief, right? So, I want other people to hear that message as well.

17:02 Brenda: Yeah. And I’ve spoken with my classmates about this, and I think I’m just fortunate in the sense that I have a very positive disposition <laugh> and so I didn’t, it never occurred to me that I wouldn’t find one. I just thought, I just need to find one <laugh>.

Net Worth in Grad School

17:17 Emily: Okay. So, let’s hear more details about your life, like coming into the program. We’ve heard a couple of things. You already owned two properties. You had been making like over six figures. In fact, your income was nearly $200K in that year immediately prior to starting graduate school. Would you like to share anything about like your net worth or just any other aspects of your financial picture at the time that you started graduate school?

17:38 Brenda: Yeah. So, at the time I started graduate school, that was 2020. So, my net worth now is about $550,000. And at that time it was probably, I think I remember tweeting about it and I think it was like $330K at that time. And that big leap has really just been real estate prices just skyrocketing. And so, I do count like potential, you know, appreciation in my net worth. And then I probably have, right now, I have about $160K or $170K invested. And at that time I probably had like $120K. And so, I’ve been contributing, let’s see, with Roth contribution maximum, which is 6,000, plus about a thousand dollars a month. So, that’s like $18,000 a year in the last two years. So yeah, that makes sense. $120K plus another $35K to $40K. So, I’m at $160K. And I anticipate, you know, this is just kind of a lull in my investing trajectory. And once I go back to full-time work and I’m earning a full-time income again of hopefully at least a hundred thousand, if not more, because I’ll be able to add my clinical practice contract work to it, then I’ll be able to go back to investing closer to $25,000 a year.

19:00 Emily: I mean, investing $18,000 a year while you’re in a PhD program is well, definitely the highest number that I’ve heard <laugh> of anybody on the podcast. So, you’re not exactly a slouch in this area. But so, prior to the PhD, though, it sounds like you were using a taxable brokerage account and maybe some employer-provided stuff 401(k) or 403(b).

19:18 Brenda: Yes, a 401(k).

19:18 Emily: Yeah. Okay. And so, that benefit went away, I assume. Like at the moment you’re only doing your Roth IRA and then the taxable brokerage account.

19:27 Brenda: Yeah. And actually, so before the episode, we talked about my stipend. So, my stipend is, just to protect my time, I don’t owe any kind of labor for that stipend, but I am limited to working 20 hours per week. The great thing about that stipulation is that I’m not limited to how much money I can make. I’m just limited to hours I can work. So, I have been a graduate research assistant at the university since spring of 2021 with one of my professors. And we’ve actually published two papers together, which is awesome. But one of the benefits of that is that as a GRA, you become staff of the university and you get access to their 403(b) and 457. So, I have been contributing at least half of my GRA income, which pays $25 an hour. And what’s funny about this is that the original pay for that position was $15 an hour at the university.

GRA Salary Negotiation

20:27 Brenda: And I told my professor, I was like, I’m sorry, like, I am passionate about your work, but like, I just cannot do it for $15 an hour. Like I have too many things going on and I have too many other much more lucrative offers. And so she went to financial, I don’t know, the financial services building and they agreed to bump it up to $25 for everyone in the nursing program, because we’re all registered nurses, at least, you know, some of us are nurse practitioners. So, it was like almost insulting <laugh>, you know? I mean, I don’t want to be a snob about it, but it’s like, who would take $15 when I can go work the same hour for $65 or $75? So anyway, so yeah, I’ve been doing the Roth, the taxable brokerage, which really comes third on my list. Like if I’m short on money one month, that’s the last one I fund. And then I contribute 50% of that $25 per hour income, which is 10 hours a week, a thousand dollars a month. So, half of that goes to the 457. And I chose the 457 on purpose because you can access it anytime without penalty.

21:38 Emily: Love all those details. Actually, it’s interesting because most people who I speak with who are like on the level of 10-hour per week employees are not offered those benefits. So like, I would say that’s a great, like, exception that your university or health sciences center offers that. So, that’s awesome that you’re doing that. And I love that you, you know, shared that negotiation story and that it not only benefited you, but benefited everybody. Like this is a message I’m trying to get across with like, you can negotiate for yourself as an individual. Yes. But it can also help other people when you do that, because it sends a message.

22:12 Brenda: I wouldn’t have expected them to just give it to me. I mean, it would’ve been fine, but then it’s like, I think it was a fairness issue, right? Because they were like, oh, well, all these other students are also doing it. No, it was great. And I think it was definitely something that the graduate college had to take into consideration because you’re looking at, you know, graduate students, but we’re also working professionals, right? So, that is kind of a unique situation that nurses in graduate school are in.

22:43 Emily: Absolutely.

Commercial

22:47 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2022 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15, 2022. Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax, and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives.

24:06 Emily: If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. Now back to our interview.

Sources of Income in Grad School

24:50 Emily: So, let’s like back up a tiny bit and talk about sort of all of your income sources during graduate school. Because you know, you’ve mentioned a couple times you have this really fantastic scholarship, so let’s start there. Like, what does the scholarship give you?

25:02 Brenda: Right. So, the scholarship is specific to my university, and it’s a special foundation that was money given through a philanthropic organization. And they basically allotted $150,000 scholarships separated into three years, $50,000 per year. That comes out to $30,000 per year or $2,500 per month as a stipend, and $3,000 for summer tuition, $6,000 for spring and fall tuition, and $4,000 leftover are for travel to conferences and that kind of thing. And I will say that I have used some of your courses and the taxes because that $2,500 counts as 1099 income for me. So, I do have to pay taxes on that. And most of my contract work is not on a W-2. So, I do have to pay taxes on that as well.

26:01 Emily: Okay. So, it sounds like the scholarship is fully paying your tuition and fees, giving you a stipend of $2,500 a month, and you have this additional professional development fund per year. Wow. Okay. That sounds great, but we’re not done yet. The way that we talked about this earlier, and I think the best way to phrase it for the listener is that that stipend of $2,500 per month essentially protects 20 hours per week of your time for you to devote to your dissertation research, or your classes, whatever it is you have to be doing for your PhD. And so, with the next 20 hours of your work week, you can be doing other paid work in that time. So, you can earn above your stipend. It’s just, you’re limited in the number of hours you can spend working. And so for you, you’ve already mentioned like the assistantship that you have at 10 hours per week. Do you have any other work that you do in the other remaining 10 hours per week?

Clinic Contract Work

26:52 Brenda: Yeah, so my former employer kept me on as a contractor. So now, I technically work for the agency that staffs their clinics, but they have urgent care clinics every weekend from nine to four. So, I’ll pick up weekend shifts. And occasionally, because my former boss knows me and knows that I know like the day-to-day clinic work, then he’ll ask me if I can work some days during the week. And so, I’ll do that. And that’s at $75 an hour. And then I have a couple of other jobs where I fill in for other nurse practitioners, like when they’re on vacation or they’re out sick or something. And the great thing about some of those is that they’re kind of slow clinics. And so, I can just take my schoolwork and do it there <laugh>.

27:43 Emily: Yeah. Sounds like a sweet deal. So, with all these active income sources together, the stipend plus the other work that you’re permitted to do, what does that add up to in terms of like your yearly income on average?

27:56 Brenda: So, last year my taxes were a little bit complicated, so I have the 1099 income, and then I have the real estate income. And I don’t take any of that as income from the real estate. So, the condo has its own account, and it has a little emergency fund for itself. And anything that it makes, it stays in there for emergencies, and same with the house. It has its own account. I pay rent into the homes account for myself, and then my tenants pay for pay into that account as well. But I rarely take any money from those accounts. So, I don’t count that. So, out of $112,000 last year, about $30K of that was from the rentals. And so, I really made about $70K, probably. So, $30K of that was from the stipend and then I made another $40K in part-time work.

28:53 Emily: Okay. So interesting. So, you have income sort of on your tax return, you have income that you don’t actually consider, like you’re not actually taking it into your personal accounts. You’re just leaving that as emergency funds and so forth for the real estate stuff. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, earning $40K on top of the $30K, again, really great for a PhD student. So good for you. The message that I want the listener to be hearing from this part of the interview is Brenda’s time is valued in a certain way because of her existing credentials and work experience and so forth. But earning something like $75 an hour is not out of the question for a PhD student in other disciplines. Depending, of course, on your work experience and what your field is and how, you know, in-demand it is, et cetera.

Valuing and Monetizing Your Skills

29:38 Emily: So, like you made the comment earlier. It’s a good thing they’re only limiting me on time and not the amount of money that I can make, because, you know, in some of your income sources, you can command quite a high hourly rate. I would love for other graduate students and postdocs to hear that message and think about, wow, if I’m making $75 an hour, a hundred dollars an hour, I only need to work two hours a week to make a really huge difference in my budget. You know, like when you can get to those high hourly rates, you don’t have to spend a ton of your time, you know, to get your finances in the shape that you want them to be in.

30:10 Brenda: For sure. And I think that, you know, like you said, I have a very particular skill, but there are skills that I don’t have that I would gladly pay someone $65 an hour to do. Like currently I’m dealing with some big data and I’m like, oh my gosh, I’m like going on websites of like, you know, people you can pay on an hourly basis to like walk you through something. And I’m sure that there are people in PhD programs who know this like the back of their hand, and they’re just not making themselves available for someone like me. Because I can earn that money, you know, relatively easily, and I’m happy to pay someone for their expertise as well. So, that’s very true. And I think that maybe sometimes, you know, I am very aware of my skill because I have a license and a certification for it, but you may have skills that other people need that don’t necessarily have, you know, very formal credentials, but that people would be happy to pay for.

31:12 Emily: And I think it’s so easy to get caught in this trap of undervaluing yourself inside academia. Like what you were talking about earlier with like the $15 versus $25 per hour negotiation that you did. It’s so common inside academia to undervalue ourselves. We see everybody else doing it, then we do it as well. But if you can take a little bit of a pivot and maybe, you know, market your skills to somebody outside of academia where these are not, you know, a dime a dozen kind of skills that everybody has, then you can, you know, potentially get those higher hourly rates. So, definitely food for thought, I hope, for some people.

Negotiating In-State Tuition

31:42 Emily: So, I think that you are probably the first interview we’ve had on the podcast who is doing like a hundred percent remote program. Not just like remote for COVID or whatever has been going on temporarily. So, you live not in the same state as where your university is. So, how does that work out with your scholarship and with the tuition and everything?

32:02 Brenda: Yeah, so that’s true. I specifically was looking for long-distance programs because I like where I live. I live close to my family, and I knew that a PhD was an experience that I would need support for <laugh>. And so, I didn’t want to leave my support system behind to do that. And so, whenever I got accepted to the University of Oklahoma and I was still living in Texas, and I had no plan to leave Texas, there was the issue of out-of-state tuition costs. And so, I got accepted in about March 2020. I found out I got the scholarship in April of 2020, and I had kind of set that as the bar, like if I get accepted and I get the scholarship, I’ll go, right? But then I thought, well, out-of-state tuition is almost double, right? It’s the difference between $10,000 and $6,000 a semester.

32:58 Brenda: And I just told the director, like I really want to go to this program, and I’m really grateful for the scholarship, but I realized financially that the out-of-state tuition is going to eat up about 50% of my stipend per semester. So, is there any way I could get in-state tuition? And she actually took it up to the graduate college and they agreed to give me a waiver for three years. So, I pay in-state tuition, and actually the great part about being a graduate research assistant is that, when you take on that position, it’s actually the grant that is funding you, that pays the waiver. And so, the waiver that I had originally been promised can be given to someone else while I’m a GRA.

33:44 Emily: Wow. Okay. Another great example of negotiation, and also another kind of general negotiation point that I like to make to prospective graduate students is like, you don’t necessarily know all the different levers that these people behind the scenes can pull to like enhance your package. So, you made the suggestion, maybe I could pay the in-state tuition rate instead of the higher rate, and they made that happen. And if that hadn’t exactly been possible, maybe they could have found a different way to augment your package to make up that, you know, $4,000 per year difference. So, yeah, so encouraging for prospective graduate students.

34:15 Brenda: I do want to mention that one of the points I brought up was that, and maybe this is just using a rivalry to my advantage, but you know, UT Austin and the University of Oklahoma are rivals in football. And UT Austin has a policy that, if you’re an out-of-state student and you come in to Texas with a scholarship from Texas, like if you won a scholarship in Texas, then the University waives your out-of-state tuition. And so, I presented that to the director and I said, you know, UT Austin does this, do you guys do anything like this? And I think that was what helped, you know, is that I had kind of done my research and I was like, you know, this is something another university is doing. Can you guys do it? And they said yes.

34:58 Emily: That’s a great example as well of like sharing of best practices. Hey, these other people have found this solution over here. Sometimes it helps to open their mind. Oh, well, maybe we could find this similar solution. Absolutely.

Money Mindset

35:09 Emily: So, you mentioned, you know, you’ve taken a pretty substantial income cut to pursue the PhD. Are there any other ways that taking this step in your career has impacted your path towards financial independence?

35:23 Brenda: Yeah, like I said, it’s probably a little bit of a setback numbers-wise and on the spreadsheet, but I feel that it’s so valuable to me personally and professionally and in my development as a person, as a researcher, as a scientist, as a nurse. You know, I’m just being challenged to think in ways that I never did before. And my practice in primary care became kind of monotonous and, you know, unfortunately, there wasn’t very much motivating me forward. And I feel totally different now. You know, even though sometimes I’m overwhelmed to learn new things, it’s so cool to like see yourself grow in ways that you never thought you could. And financially like, okay, maybe I’m taking like a $50 or $60,000 per year cut. But in the course of my life, like is three years really going to <laugh> matter that much, you know? And how much more will my life be enriched by having this degree? Like what doors will it open for me, whether they’re monetary or not is not really the point for me anymore. And that’s something that I was able to achieve in my twenties, right? Like that I set myself up to where, whether I make $50,000 or $150,000, what matters most to me now is that I’m happy, that I’m fulfilled, that I’m challenged, that I enjoy the people I work with, that I genuinely feel that I’m making a difference.

36:54 Emily: And it’s just so like gratifying to hear that, you know, the work you did on your finances in your twenties, both before and after discovering the FIRE movement, set you up to have this excellent financial experience during the PhD. Now, part of that is your field, and this is normal and so forth, this fantastic scholarship, you got all of that. But part of that is just, you know, when I was listening to some of your other podcast interviews, I was thinking that you just sound so like, calm about your finances. Like you just sound so like relaxed about them, which is a very different energy than what I give off sometimes, and like other people who I listen to, or interview on the podcast. But that is on the back of all the work that you did in your twenties to lead up to this point.

37:37 Emily: And so, you get to be relaxed because you have this net worth, you have your properties, you have your house hack, and you have this fantastic income. And this is just something that I so wish that more PhD students could experience. Even a fraction of the experience that you’re having, right? Like maybe it’s having the reasonable income for a person in their twenties or thirties. Or maybe it’s, you know, having worked for a few years, building up a bit of a nest egg before taking that income cut the way you have. I just, I love hearing just your whole like, sort of disposition towards this.

38:09 Brenda: Yeah. And I think a lot of it is reorienting your mind to not have a scarcity mindset, right? To kind of have an abundance mindset, like I’m going to thrive and I’m going to find a great job after this. And like I said, I’m just gifted with a naturally positive disposition, but like, I don’t have any worries about what will happen after, because everything’s worked out so far. <Laugh> maybe that’s just because I’ve been so strategic, right? Maybe in some ways I could have relaxed a little bit, but I am very forward-looking, right? I’m always kind of thinking about the next thing. And I have to remind myself to live in the moment, too, but yeah. I think that most PhD students, like you said, undervalue themselves. And I think about my classmates alone. You know, I’m like, they’re so talented, they’re so smart. Some of them are doing this with kids, with a family, taking care of their parents, with a job. And I’m just like, those are skills, right? Like those are highly marketable skills. Like just getting through the program with life the way it is is a crazy good skill. So, I really appreciate that you encourage people to, you know, maybe do some inward thinking about how can I monetize these things that just come naturally to me now in this stage of my life?

What is Coast FI?

39:40 Emily: You said a couple of minutes ago that, well, it doesn’t really matter if I make $50,000 or $150,000 a year. It’s going to be okay. It’s going to work out. That reminded me of the term Coast FI, a particular version of FIRE. Do you think about Coast FI? Would you describe yourself as Coast FI? Let’s define that for the listener.

39:59 Brenda: Yeah. I think traditionally, Coast FI means that your retirement is set, even if you don’t invest another dollar. I wouldn’t say that I don’t need to keep investing. I think I do. But I don’t really see myself retiring early in the traditional like FIRE sense because I have, A) A very useful skill that’s highly needed in this country. B) I speak Spanish, which is really useful in my part of the country. C) I’m just such a busybody. Like I could never stop working, you know, <laugh> like, I just, when people talk about staying home, like with children, I’m like, I could never do that. I could have children, but I’m not staying home with them 100% of the time. So, yeah, Coast FI for me just means that I have the financial flexibility to choose something that means something to me, as opposed to just a means to an end, to like pay my bills. And a part of that has also been keeping my expenses low. But the other part is, like you said, everything I did to set myself up in my twenties. And, you know, a few years ago, I probably would’ve told you that I would quit working at 45. And now that I’ve been in the PhD program, I’m like, no, there’s so much to do. There’s no way I could cut off 15 or 20 years off my career, you know?

41:26 Emily: That’s so interesting that you described earlier kind of finding, getting into like a lull in your career. Like you weren’t so stimulated. And I think that some people, like you did, would see FIRE, the potential to retire early, as the solution to that. And you did, but you also found another solution, which is, you know, taking your career in a slightly different direction, going down the academic path. And you found that reinvigoration there. And now you have kind of choices on both fronts. You have many career options, you have many financial options, to work, to not work, to work in a capacity that other people would not be able to, perhaps, because they hadn’t maybe had all these, you know, made all these decisions in their twenties and so forth. So, kind of the world is your oyster really <laugh> once you finish this program.

42:09 Brenda: Yeah. And things have come up during the PhD program. I don’t know if it’s because of the PhD program, but for example, I was a volunteer vaccinator for a local community center that was giving out COVID-19 vaccines every three weeks. And I was just consistently going, because I just wanted to help my community. And then they reached out to me about being the clinical consultant for their community center, because it was part of their grant. It would help their grant application if they had someone, you know, whose name they could put down, and they offered to pay me for that as well. That was an income source I forgot to tell you about. So, they pay me $500 a month, and I basically like attend some meetings and answer questions about COVID, about the vaccine, about what to do if this or that. And that was something I never would’ve thought I would do. You know? And it’s just like kind of a result of just saying yes, like I was like, well, I don’t see clinical consultant on my resume yet. <Laugh> but I guess I’ll do it. You just tell me what to do and I’ll show up, you know?

43:17 Emily: That comes from having that financial margin in your life and the time margin, right? To be able to say yes to, at first unpaid, but then later look what it turned into, you know, opportunities, which is something I could certainly <laugh> learn from.

Post-PhD Plans

43:29 Emily: Okay. So let’s talk a slight bit more about post-PhD plans. You mentioned earlier, you know, you have a few different career paths that you might choose among. What are you thinking?

43:40 Brenda: So, the idea of working in industry, or like the pharmaceutical area appeals to me because every pharmaceutical company has a medical affairs division in which they have doctoral-level prepared clinicians or pharmacists, which kind of serve as the bridge between the scientists creating the drug or the device and the prescribers out in the world. And so, that’s actually a really lucrative option. Like I know a couple people who do it and they make about $170,000 plus bonuses. So, they’re making like $200,000 a year. So, if I wanted money, that’s what I would do. <Laugh> which I’m not above saying that I want money. Okay. <laugh> so if that job came up, I would definitely consider it. Then there’s obviously the traditional route of pursuing some kind of tenure-track research career in academia. I’m kind of iffy on that. I don’t know that it’s the best use of my strengths. I’m definitely a people person. I’m an extrovert. I can do writing and I can write grants, and I could potentially, you know, try to prove myself to the NIH for the rest of my life <Laugh> to try to get research money, but I’m not sure that I want that.

45:03 Brenda: And then, I could do a blend of clinical practice and teaching where I just teach as an adjunct and I maintain my clinical practice. That’s kind of what I was doing before the PhD. So, I’m not sure that I would really be maximizing what I learned in the PhD if I went back to that. And then there’s a postdoc if I do want pursue research and I just want to get into someone else’s work and see what they’re doing, and maybe that’ll make me more excited about a tenure-track career. And then I was also looking at the National Clinician Scholars Program, which is kind of like a subset of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. And that’s a program at six campuses all over the country in which you basically get more education on health policy and organizational change. And most of the graduates go on to work at like the Department of Health or Health and Human Services or the CDC or some kind of federal agency where policy is happening. So, that’s probably one of my top ones. Pharma’s one of my top ones, and teaching in a, non-research, like very little research, that’s probably my third one.

46:11 Emily: Yeah. Well, hopefully, you have all of those things on the table once you get towards your graduation. And like you said, money could play a role in your decision, or maybe you’ll be following, you know, what seems most interesting to you. And again, the position that you’re in affords you those options. So, it’s wonderful to hear. And I think you said earlier, you know, you’re probably not going to be idle, right? Even once you achieve financial independence, however you want to define that. It sounds like you expect to have a long career, which is, once you’ve invested in something like a PhD program, it’s very, I think, worthwhile to keep your skills out there and keep, you know, working for your communities you’ve said so far. Yeah. Anything else you want to add about what you envision your life to change or not change? Like after you achieve financial independence?

46:57 Brenda: I think as a woman and as someone in their early thirties, you know, one of the big factors in deciding what I do is like, if I want to start a family, and what career option would be most conducive to that. And like you said, I have options, but like women have to think about that more. And especially in academia or in science, like you don’t want to be put on the mommy track, right? So, that’s also something I consider like if I were to have children, would it be right away after the PhD? Would I settle into another job? Like give it a year or two? I’m going to be 33 in September. Like what about my, you know, what about my fertility? Like, there are so many things to think about. And I think that’s very real for a lot of women in academia, right? It’s like juggling your human babies and the baby of your career, which is your research or whatever you’re working on post-PhD.

48:00 Emily: Absolutely. And another thing that having a strong financial position just puts you in a strong position to decide about. If you want to take an extra long maternity leave that’s unpaid, but you have a job to go back to, well, maybe that’s going to be, you know, the best situation for you, or maybe not. Maybe it’ll be a different decision, but whatever you do, I mean, having money gives you options. I say that over and over again, it just gives you options. And that’s really what you have now, which is so delightful to hear.

Where Can People Find You?

48:24 Emily: So, if people want to hear more from you, where can they find you?

48:29 Brenda: I’m on Twitter @almostbrenda, like the word almost, and then my name, almost Brenda. And that’s also my Instagram handle and my email address at Gmail, almostbrenda@gmail.com. I’m on LinkedIn. That’s linkedin.com/in/bolmosfnp for family nurse practitioner. And I’d love to connect with people. Even if, you know, even if you just want to talk about how to improve your finances, I know Emily, you’re a great resource for that. And I’ve been in the Community forums there too. But if you’re interested in coming on our podcast, I cohost Minority Millennial Money which is on Apple and Spotify and all of the platforms. We love to have people come on and we talk through their finances with them and see what they could do better. So yeah, I’m easily reachable. I’m all over the internet. <Laugh>

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

49:26 Emily: Wonderful. I hope you’ll have a few people follow up with you from this. Okay. I’m going to conclude with the question that I always ask my guests at the end of interviews, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

49:44 Brenda: I would say it would be to disassociate your self-worth from your net worth, right? Because although I’m in a particularly advantageous position, I know how difficult it must be for people who are not in this position and are looking forward to those days when they get to earn a higher living. And you know, you’re already undervaluing your skills. You’re already in places that may be toxic and not supportive. Like, the very least you could do is like not value yourself based on what’s in your bank account. <Laugh>. And also, if you have the ability to keep investing, like to not lose time, because time is money in the market, right? So, anything you can throw at it is super helpful.

50:32 Emily: Great messages to end on. Brenda, thank you so much for this delightful interview!

50:36 Brenda: Yeah. Thank you!

Outtro

50:42 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student’s Defensive Financial Planning Paid Off During the Pandemic

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In this episode, Emily interviews Maya Gosztyla, a third-year graduate student in biomedical sciences at the University of California at San Diego. Maya has experienced major financial ups and downs over the three years since her first podcast interview. Her husband was unemployed for over a year between moving with her to San Diego and pandemic hiring freezes. However, she managed to support both of them with her grad student stipend and freelance side income thanks to negotiating for a spot in her university’s subsidized housing program. Now that her husband is employed again, they are aggressively pursuing FIRE through investing and enjoying occasional splurges.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

This Grad Student’s Defensive Financial Planning Paid Off During the Pandemic

Teaser

00:00 Maya: My husband didn’t have a job lined up at that point. We weren’t too worried, because San Diego’s a pretty big biotech hub. And so we were doing pretty well on just my stipend end of 2019. We got to 2020, things changed a bit. And so what we thought was going to be just like maybe like, you know, worst case, a six month-unemployment period, turned out to be like over a year of unemployment for him. So it was at that point that I was really happy that I had made the decision to choose a school that I could pay for on just my stipend. Because if we didn’t do that, we would have had a lot of debt after paying for just us that year.

Introduction

00:34 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 11, Episode 1, and today my guest is Maya Gosztyla, a third-year graduate student in biomedical sciences at the University of California at San Diego. Maya has experienced major financial ups and downs over the three years since her first podcast interview. Her husband was unemployed for over a year between moving with her to San Diego and pandemic hiring freezes. However, she managed to support both of them with her grad student stipend and freelance side income thanks to negotiating for a spot in her university’s subsidized housing program. Now that her husband is employed again, they are aggressively pursuing FIRE through investing and enjoying occasional splurges.

It’s January now and you know what that means: Tax season is upon us! At some point in the next three or so months, you will prepare and submit your 2021 tax return, and I am here to help. I have just released the 2021 version of my annual tax return workshop for graduate students, which is titled How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!). The goal of the workshop is to assist you in calculating and reporting your grad student income and maximizing your higher education tax benefits using your qualified education expenses. It supports your federal tax return preparation process whether you use software, employ a human tax preparer, or fill out the IRS forms directly. The workshop comprises videos and worksheets, plus I will hold live Q&A calls throughout tax season for any follow-up questions you might have.

There is another upcoming deadline that graduate students, postbacs, and postdocs should be aware of. The 2021 quarter 4 estimated tax payment is due on January 18, 2022 unless you plan to file your tax return by the end of January. This payment deadline may apply to you if you were paid by a fellowship or training grant for part or all of 2021 and no income tax was withheld from your paychecks. You can find out if you are required to make this payment by filling out IRS Form 1040-ES. If you need some help with calculating your payment, please join my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It shows you how to fill out every line of the form and answers common questions from the PhD population, such as when to make these payments if you switch onto or off of fellowship in the course of the calendar year. The quarter 4 live Q&A call for this workshop is scheduled for January 9, 2022. You can find links to these two workshops plus all of my free tax resources at PFforPhDs.com/tax/. By the way, I license both of the workshops that I just mentioned to university clients at a discounted bulk rate, so it’s well worth asking your graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, etc. if they are willing to purchase either or both on behalf of yourself and your peers. I hope you will use my resources to ease much of the stress of tax season. Again, you can find everything linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Maya Gosztyla.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:12 Emily: I am delighted to have back on the podcast, Maya Gosztyla. She’s actually contributed to the podcast three times before. So back when she was a postbac fellow, we did a full interview and season two, episode four, that was mostly about her side hustle. We’re going to hear an update about that later on today. And then she’s also given us two short updates. So season seven, episode 16, she gave us a quick update on how her finances and life were going. And then in season eight, episode seven, she was one of my anonymous guests on the podcast episode on negotiating your grad student stipend and benefits. So, because, you know, we’ve been kind of loosely in touch over the past couple of years. I know that a lot of interesting things have happened in Maya’s finances since we did our full interview. So I asked her to come back on the podcast to talk about all these various developments. So, Maya it’s really great to have you! Would you please re-introduce yourself to the listeners?

05:01 Maya: Yeah, definitely. I’m excited to be back on here after a couple of years. There are some updates. So yeah, my name’s Maya, I’m currently in my third year of my PhD program at UC San Diego studying biomedical sciences. And before this, I did my undergrad at Ohio State. And then I did a one-year postbac at the NIH.

Freelance Side Hustling

05:20 Emily: Yes. And so, that earlier interview that we did was all about your side hustle. So can you fill us in a couple of details about that side hustle?

05:27 Maya: Sure. So I’ve been doing this since like senior year of undergrad. I do some freelance science writing. And since then, I’ve gotten a little bit into science consulting and some freelance programming as well. So I’ve been doing that for a while, and it’s just kind of a way to both supplement my income and also to get some connections with various industries that I might not have met otherwise through my main research.

05:47 Emily: Yeah. I love that you started this side hustle so well in advance of grad school. So it was kind of already established. It’s really kind of hard to get something off the ground as a grad student, but I love that, you know, you already had it going and just had to maintain it.

How Taxes Played a Role in the Decision to Get Married

06:00 Emily: Okay. So we’re just kind of going to step through the last couple of years, since we published our interview. We conducted the interview in maybe like late 2018, early 2019, you were applying to grad school that year, or in that academic year. So things that have happened since then: one, I know that you got married, and I know that the timing of your marriage was influenced by tax matters. So can you explain how taxes played a role in when you decided to get married?

06:26 Maya: Yeah, definitely. So my husband and I, we actually, for a long time, were just like not planning to get married. We’d been together for close to 10 years at this point, like since high school, but, you know, neither of us is religious. We don’t really have any interest in children. So we just didn’t really see much of a need to do the whole legal marriage thing. But then as I started to research more about the kind of financial benefits of marriage, it started to become a lot more useful for us to get married, basically for like kind of a cynical my point, not very romantic view of marriage. And especially as I was going into grad school, as you mentioned, this was kind of the ideal time for us to get married. Partly because I was asking my husband to like move across the country with me and he didn’t have a job lined up yet.

07:04 Maya: So I thought that was kind of a big financial risk for him. And I wanted him to have a little legal protection, I guess. But as you said, the tax reasons were kind of the main thing. Probably most people know that when you’re married filing jointly, your overall tax rate usually goes down somewhat. That can vary depending on your exact incomes. But for us, the thing that kind of made us get married at that point was because I was still eligible for the kiddie tax from my first year of grad school, which is basically, I think it was established so that it was like people who were rich used to kind of give their adult children some of their stocks and like use that to kind of avoid taxes on their part. And so to avoid that if you’re under age 26 and you have unearned income which includes capital gains, but unfortunately also includes a lot of grad school fellowships and scholarships.

The Kiddie Tax

07:50 Maya: Your taxes are like really high on that. Like, I don’t know the exact number, but it was like 20% or something ridiculous like that. So for that first year of grad school, I was only 25. So, I think I was actually 24 going in. So like, I didn’t want to have to pay that crazy tax rate. And if you’re married, you don’t have to pay the kiddie tax. So that right there probably saved us a few thousand dollars. And it also ended up saving us more money that year because we qualified for the retirement savers’ credit which normally, you know, if it was just me, my income would have been a little bit above the limit to get like the maximum benefit. But because we were both below the limit, because my husband didn’t have a job during that first year, which we’ll get into later. Our combined income was low enough that we basically each got a thousand dollars back for that tax credit. So $2,000 plus the kiddie tax savings just for getting married that year.

08:37 Emily: Yeah. I’m sure it’s something that most people don’t think about, especially at the age that you were, you know, 23, 24, that kind of age. So yeah, people want to learn more about the kiddie tax like issue, I have an article on my website it’s linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax. You can find it linked from there. But basically, it’s pretty little known, but as you said, it’s meant to tax unearned income, but unfortunately fellowship income is defined in the same way. It’s defined as unearned income. And so yeah, grad students and postbacs like you were, can get into this strange, like potentially higher tax situation. Now around the time that you were like getting married, making these decisions, the kiddie tax was going through a little bit of a shift. So I think maybe in the year that you got married, it was the worst that it ever got because it was yeah, like the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, which was passed, I guess at the end of 2017, so effective in 2018, it increased the kiddie tax rates up to the like trust rates.

09:38 Emily: But then after a year or two, they realized what a problem that was, especially for low-income college students. And so they brought it back down to like your parents’ tax rate, which is what it was before. Which is great if your parents are low income and that’s the reason you’re receiving grants and stuff. But like for a lot of graduate students, we received this kind of aid for merit reasons, and not necessarily because your parents have this or that kind of income. And so it can hit students and postbacs and stuff who are not dependents of their parents. So not necessarily even receiving support from their parents, but their parents’ tax rate is considered in their tax rates. So it’s really messed up. But as you said, marriage gets you out of this. It’s like the get out of jail free card for the kiddie tax, and for some other matters like this. So yeah, as you said, not very romantic, but a very practical reason. If you’re already set on being together long-term to have the legal protections, as you said, of marriage in place, and having these kind of extra weird tax benefits, like you mentioned the retirement saver’s credit as well for your husband, presumably.

10:35 Maya: Yeah, it ended up being really important, especially during my husband’s unemployment period, because one of the things that came with marriage was that he can be on my health insurance. And when he aged out of his parents’ health insurance, we would have had to pay much higher rates if we were not married. So it was a benefit that I wasn’t like even thinking about going in, but things like health insurance, also the ability to like open an IRA and contribute for each other. Like since I don’t have any earned income during grad school, I normally wouldn’t be able to use an IRA, but being married lets us do that. And there’s probably even other financial benefits I haven’t figured out yet. So I think it’s a good thing to be aware of that even if you don’t really have like romantic or religious reasons to get married, it’s sometimes still useful just for the financial reasons.

Marriage Penalty or Benefit

11:12 Emily: Yeah. I want to say actually a small correction because it was the case that you couldn’t contribute to an IRA, but that law has changed as of 2020. So even with fellowship income. But for your husband, now, if your husband, as we’ll get into, he went through a period of unemployment. As a spouse, he can still contribute to an IRA based on your earned income. So it’s like anyway, double benefit there. But yeah, it’s really interesting. I’ll try to link it from the show notes. There’s like a graphic, it’s probably from the New York Times or something, where it shows you where there’s a marriage benefit and where there’s a marriage penalty in terms of does having, you know, this income range mean lower tax rates or higher tax rates if you’re married.

11:49 Emily: And depending on where you are, it can either have no effect, there can be a benefit, here can be a penalty, I think down where I’m assuming your tax rates are, it’s neutral, there’s no benefit or penalty. But as you get into like higher incomes and more disparate income, sometimes those things can come into effect. Super interesting. So thank you for telling us about the kiddie tax. Ah, good to be reminded, especially in tax season. Okay. So that affected the timing, the fact that you got married, the timing of it and so forth, and then okay.

Role of Finances in Grad School Selection

12:15 Emily: Going into like application season, admission season, this is kind of just after we did our interview. Did finances come into play for you in considering your various offers or your selection of where to attend graduate school?

12:27 Maya: Yeah. Finances are definitely like probably in my top five or maybe even three criteria for choosing a grad program. I think everyone knows you’re not going to be like living large on a grad stipend, but I at least wanted to not have to have finances be like something else I’d have to worry about on top of my research. And I think some people, especially if you’re going into grad school in a long-term relationship, or if you’re married, you might think that maybe it doesn’t matter quite so much, because you could rely on your spouse’s income. But especially if your spouse works in a field where jobs aren’t always long-term, it’s common for people to like get laid off quickly or switch around jobs. I think it’s really important to be able to support not just yourself, but also both of you for at least a short period of time on just your grad stipend, and not think like, “Oh, I have a spouse, so therefore I don’t have to worry about it too much.”

13:12 Maya: So like for example, in our case, I really wanted somewhere where maybe we won’t be living like with anything extra really, but at least we can survive and like pay the rent and buy food on just my income. Which is like just barely the case where I am at UC San Diego. That’s kind of like right on the border of like slowly losing money over time. But there were definitely some other schools like I’ll mention like the Bay Area, several schools in that area where their stipends are a little higher than here in San Diego, but definitely not enough to cover like the difference in cost of living. And that made me really hesitant to choose any of those schools.

Subsidized Housing

13:43 Emily: Yeah. I really appreciate your mindset going into this. “Okay. I want to be able to support two adults, if necessary, for a short period of time.” And I know this is a situation that often comes up for international students who are bringing spouses along with them who don’t have, you know, the clearance to work in the U.S. And so that’s a major, major consideration for them. I’m really glad you brought that up. And I’m glad that you mentioned like other schools, California, different areas. Now some schools, like ones in the Bay Area maybe, and I know at UCSD, offer subsidized housing. So how did that come into play with your decision-making?

14:16 Maya: Yeah, housing is like, I think for most people, their biggest expense. So any way I could bring down my housing costs was a big plus for me. One of the schools I interviewed at was UCSF and they do have subsidized housing. But it’s not guaranteed, like you’re not guaranteed a slot in grad housing. And in general you only get to stay there like one year, sometimes two. So that was kind of like, made me a little nervous that I might have to pay full Bay Area rent for most, if not all, of my grad school. Here in San Diego, we also have subsidized grad housing. For us it’s a two-year limit. But I was able to, as I talked about in that negotiation video, I was able to negotiate into this program at UCSD, which is designed to recruit grad students to school, where they basically guarantee you a spot in grad housing as soon as you get there, and you get to stay until you graduate. So you don’t have to move out after two years. So basically once I got into that program, that kind of like sealed the deal for UC San Diego for me. It just made it like, like much more comfortably affordable and it just like gave me a lot of peace of mind to not have to worry about rent increases as much.

15:14 Emily: Yeah. That is incredible. Okay. So did you know about that program? Or was it something that you kind of inquired about housing, and then they told you about it? Like how did the conversation go?

15:26 Maya: Yeah, it was kind of actually something that my student host who was the one like driving me around to interviews told me about, because she was also in that program. It’s kind of a weird word of mouth thing. Like the university doesn’t really advertise it, but it’s also the kind of thing where like, if you bring it up, you’re much more likely to get it. So it can be helpful if you interview at a school, you know, even if no, one’s like really mentioned any subsidized housing, maybe some don’t even know about it because they’re not in like the subsidized housing, you know, special program, just like ask around. Because sometimes just knowing about it can really help your odds of finding something like that.

Negotiation Often Starts with a Simple Question

15:55 Emily: That’s incredible. And I think that negotiation often starts that way just like by inquiring sort of innocently like, “Oh, are there any like benefits I should know about? Any special programs I should apply for?” And how did you end up actually getting it? Like, was there an application process? Or how did you know that you secured the spot?

16:13 Maya: Yeah, so basically right after I got my official acceptance to the program and they wanted to know like, was there anything else that could answer my questions or things to basically convince me to join? And at that point, I basically sent them an email saying, “I’m really interested in the program. I also got accepted to this other school, which has a similar stipend, but is in a much lower cost of living city. If there was anything that UC to do to lower my housing costs, such as this subsidized housing program, I would basically commit to UCSD right now,” is what I told them. And then I just sent that email to the grad program. They went back for like a week or two to, I don’t know, discuss something. And then they just emailed me back and said, you have a slot in the program. There was no formal application or anything like that. So it was a very informal thing. I think other people who don’t ask about the program, just get that in their initial offer letter. Like if they’re just a really competitive candidate, they might get that off the bat. So I think it varies between people, but that was how it was for me. It was a pretty informal process.

17:06 Emily: It’s amazing, I won’t say everywhere, but at some kinds of programs, what recruitment strings administrators have to pull on that you would not know about if you weren’t really just like, kind of openly communicating with them. And I think it’s really smart to just say like, “Hey, like I have financial concerns right now. I’m looking at other offers, and what can we do here to like sweeten the pot?” Because as you said, you know, you’re obviously interested in the program, you know, passionate about the program and wanted to go, but like, there’s just this one thing holding you back. And that’s honesty, but it’s also a negotiation tactic. So I’m really, really happy to like hear that story again. Were there any other ways you wanted to mention that finances played a role in your decision of where to go to grad school?

[Addendum: After the conclusion of the interview, Maya shared that UCSD is increasing the rent for on-campus housing for new tenants. Maya’s apartment would rent to a new tenant for over double the price she currently pays. Therefore, subsidized housing at UCSD for grad students matriculating in 2022 may not be a deal compared with unaffiliated housing. More info here.]

Stipend and TA Requirement

17:50 Maya: The stipend was definitely the biggest thing. The other thing to look at, I think, was whether you have to TA to get that stipend. There are some programs, especially with things that are more like a biology program, as opposed to like a biomedical program, where you sometimes have to TA multiple quarters to basically get that stipend, which can really extend your time to graduation. So even if you’re making the same amount, like if you have to be an extra year in grad school, that could cost you like a year of entry-level industry salary, that could be a six-figure difference. So having a program where you may have to TA like one quarter, or like maybe not at all, can make a really big difference to not have to like extend your graduation time, which my program, we only have to TA one quarter. So as soon as that’s done, you can just focus on research. So that’s a big help as well.

18:31 Emily: Yeah. Super, super good point. And I cover this in my course inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community called like Decipher Your Grad Student Offer Letters or something like that. And that’s one of the points that I go into is like, what is the reason that you are receiving this stipend? What do you have to do to receive it? And if you’re receiving a stipend because you’re TAing, then that is a time commitment. It’s at a part-time employment time commitment of you that doesn’t necessarily exist at all if you’re on fellowship or if you have a research assistantship where, you know, you’re working towards your dissertation the whole time. So really, really important point for any prospective graduate students to consider. So thank you for that.

Commercial

19:09 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2021 tax return, which are available at PFforPhDs.com/tax/. I hope you will check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which are linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. I offer one workshop on preparing your annual tax return for graduate students and one workshop on calculating your quarterly estimated tax for fellowship and training grant recipients. The 2021 quarter 4 live Q&A call for the quarterly estimated tax workshop is this coming Sunday, January 9th. Please be aware that the deadline to make your quarter 4 payment, if applicable, is January 18th if you are not planning to file your tax return by the end of January. It would be my pleasure to help you save you time and potentially money this tax season, so don’t hesitate to reach out. Now back to our interview.

Financial Transition at the Start of Grad School

20:45 Emily: Okay. So let’s kind of fast forward. You’ve chosen UCSD, you’ve gotten married, you’re starting the school year. Tell me about the move, the transition to graduate school, especially financially.

20:56 Maya: Yeah, so we moved, I think basically the day after my fellowship at the NIH ended. We just like moved right to San Diego and started getting moved in. My husband didn’t have a job lined up at that point. He has a bioengineering just bachelor’s degree. We weren’t too worried at that point because San Diego is a pretty big like biotech hub, and he was already like getting some interviews after we moved there. And so we were doing pretty well on just my stipend end of 2019. Obviously, we got to 2020 things changed a bit. He’d been getting a lot of interviews and actually already had an offer in hand. But as soon as the pandemic hit, that offer got rescinded. Companies started going remote only and didn’t really want to train any new kind of biology, tech positions like that. And so what we thought was going to be just like, maybe like you know, worst case, six-month unemployment period turned out to be like over a year of unemployment for him. So it was at that point that I was really happy that I had made the decision to choose a school that I could pay for on just my stipend. Because if we didn’t do that, we would have had a lot of debt after paying for just us that year.

21:52 Emily: Yeah. That’s I mean, you couldn’t have seen what was coming, but like your just general emergency worst case scenario like planning really kicked in there. So that’s great. I can’t imagine it was very pleasant. Do you want to share anything about how, I mean, I guess everyone was kind of not really doing anything for most of 2020, like how did it go for you in terms of like actually living on that one stipend?

Managing Living on One Stipend

22:17 Maya: Yeah. I mean, one thing that definitely helped a lot with, I think I mentioned in my original interview that I had been saving really aggressively during my postbac to get kind of an emergency fund built up. And I still had that during grad school and that was super helpful. We ended up not really needing to touch that. We didn’t have any major emergencies, but just knowing that, if something came up, like, especially, you know, what if one of us had to go to the hospital or something, we would have that cushion was really helpful. But on the other hand, with like zero cashflow every month, like I was just really hesitant to spend at all beyond my stipend. Like, you know, if we had to use some of that emergency fund, we’d have no way to replenish it at all. So we had to be kind of like kind of hermits for the whole year.

22:54 Maya: Having subsidized housing definitely helps. One of the things that helped were, like, for example, we share a really old used car that we bought in cash before we moved here. It was very cheap. And I actually don’t even use that car. I bike to lab every day. So there’s basically no like gas maintenance costs at all. We just have that for like buying groceries once a week. So that definitely lowered the cost a lot. Parking is also really expensive in San Diego, so that saved us I’m sure several hundred a month easily. And also things that weren’t really within our control, like for example, loan forbearance, like, you didn’t have to make any loan payments. If we had to make those payments, we probably would have been like bleeding money a little bit during that year, for sure.

23:30 Maya: And then also my side hustle, which we mentioned, I kind of like cranked that up a little bit during that year for obvious reasons, and my husband did some of that too, while he was applying for jobs which, you know, it doesn’t bring in that much money. You only have so much time as a full time grad student to side hustle. But having that extra couple of hundred a month was like really helpful, allowed us to kind of like, maybe once a month we’d like get some takeout and like that money would come from my side hustle. So just like those, you know, occasional things where we’re just really tired and just want some cheap Chinese food or something. Like we could actually do that without having to be super anxious about just like taking from our emergency fund for that kind of thing.

Dual-Income Household

24:02 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. It sounds like a difficult time, like not really having any outlets, like sort of literally, and also financially. But, eventually the corner turned and he did get a position. And when did he get his full-time job?

24:19 Maya: He first started at the beginning of this year, so just like January 2021, making very little money, like basically the same as my stipend, which is like pretty low. But then like a month or two after that, he got a new job at a different company paying quite a bit more. So we actually have some like positive cashflow, which is like a very welcome change after more than a year of having very little money.

24:39 Emily: Yeah. That’s awesome to hear. And I guess there’s been sort of a sea change with employment generally in that time. And so he probably has a lot, I don’t know, it’s actually a good time to be getting jobs like now, or, you know, earlier this year. That sounds really good.

24:52 Emily: So finally, you had a dual income household. Did you make any changes to your finances? Aside from maybe having a little bit of, you know, loosening up on the purse strings a bit. Did you have any like financial goals that you were working towards, or anything like that?

Financial Goals with Dual Income

25:05 Maya: Yeah, definitely. It was definitely like a pretty slow process. Like I think probably for the first six months of this year, we kind of still lived like hermits, because we just didn’t know like, you know, what if he loses this job again? Like what if like there’s another resurgence in the pandemic and things close down? Like we just didn’t know what’s going to happen. But I just started getting into summer and like things were kind of semi getting back to normal, we did a couple of things to kind of like actually start not just like saving money but investing it. So we’re both really interested in like FIRE, like financial independence retire early. And we had basically had been making zero progress on that, because obviously we just didn’t have any money to invest. But now we actually are able to do things like take some of our savings and put that into our IRAs.

25:40 Maya: And we’re able to max those out this year for the first time. We also had some just for our actual emergency savings, we converted some of that into I bonds, which pay a little bit more interest, like something, I think they’re like five or 6% right now just to keep up with inflation which we couldn’t do before, because you can’t touch them for a year after you put them in I bonds. But now that we have like a bit more of a buffer, we felt comfortable doing that. So we get a little more interest there. And the other thing was that I still do my side hustle, but I’m much more selective now. I’m not just like working crazy hours all weekend. And I’m able to basically just take the jobs that like pay really well per hour and are also interesting to me. And now that money, instead of being like spent every month, I just put it all into a solo 401(k). So that’s all just kind of extra money that our budget never sees. It just goes right into our investments.

Side Hustle Balancing Act

26:27 Emily: Yeah, I want to follow up on that a little bit. So that’s cool that you’ve been able to make these extra moves in your finances, like especially doing the IRAs in 2021. That’s awesome to hear that. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit more about the side hustle. So now that you, you know, feel like you don’t to have the money coming in because you’re depending on it, you said you’re more selective. Does that mean that you’ve increased your pay rate either what you’re asking for, or just you only select jobs that pay more?

26:53 Maya: Yeah, so basically, there’s kind of a balancing act, right? So if you increase your pay, you get fewer customers, but you also like maybe you don’t need as many because you’re making more. So during the pandemic, I kind of had a certain balance where like I wanted to just like maximize money per month, regardless of like hours. But now that I’m limiting myself to closer to like five hours max per week, oftentimes less, I’m definitely cranking up the pay. Like these days, since I have a good bit of experience, I charge a hundred dollars an hour or more sometimes to offer these clients. And they’re all things that I like personally enjoy. They’re not just like boring articles that I’m slugging through. So that’s been helpful, both to just like keep me motivated, like I think I would’ve started to hate it if I had to keep doing it for just any job that would come in. Now it’s more of just like a hobby that I happen to get paid for.

27:35 Emily: Okay. Hold up. So you just said that you work about five hours a week and are looking at a hundred plus dollars per hour. So that’s 2000 a month, if you work consistently. Now that’s rivaling your stipend. I mean, I’m sure your stipend’s a little bit higher, but we’re in the same, like ballpark now. That’s incredible. And so you are, as I understand, you’re not incorporating any of that income into your budget, it’s just going straight into your individual or solo 401(k), right?

28:01 Maya: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I don’t always do five hours a week. It’s kind of the upper limit, but yeah, it’s kind of tough. Sometimes I’m even tempted. I’m like, why am I working extra hours in my lab when I could be making like 10 times this hourly rate on my side hustle? So yeah, it’s like very tempting to work more at it. Honestly, I’ve had to kind of like restrain myself.

Networking via Science Writing

28:17 Emily: That’s something that’s really, really good to be thoughtful about. Because like, so for you, does this freelance writing play into your ultimate career goals? Or is this just something you do for the time being?

28:28 Maya: It’s something I’m just trying to keep open as a door. I don’t think I’d want to be like a full-time science writer, but it’s more just like I’m meeting a lot of people at companies. Like I’m more interested in like a research biotech type position. But a lot of the jobs I do, even though they’re writing, are for like biotech and pharma companies. I’ve even had people like offer me like jobs as like maybe like if you drop out of grad school, we’ll give you this job. And I’m obviously not going to do that, but be great to follow up within a few years and be like, “Hey, I actually graduated. Can I get a job there now?” So it’s more just like those connections that I think are really valuable rather than the actual, like specific writing experience that I’m doing.

29:00 Emily: That is amazing that it can serve as a networking tool as well for your future position. But yeah, I do think it’s smart to limit the number of hours you spend on this because obviously the graduate degree and how well you do with that and how much you publish, whatever, it’s still going to matter for getting your next position. So yeah, don’t leave grad school to do your side hustle full-time. But yeah, that’s an amazing rate. I’m so, I mean, like you said, you’ve been doing it for several years, it’s been what, like four years now or something? So like you’ve built up the skills and the networks and so forth. But like, that’s awesome. So that’s rivaling your stipend, but it’s all going into investments. You’re pursuing FIRE. I do want to mention, I have, again a course inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community called, the title is like Best Financial Practices for Your Self-Employment Side Hustle.

29:45 Emily: And it goes into the choice of what retirement account to use. If you have, it’s like basically for exactly your situation: you’re in grad school or a postdoc or whatever. You have a side income, you’re self-employed, you’re already maxing out your IRA. What do you do next? And you know, not being offered a 403(b) or whatever through your primary position. Well, because you’re, self-employed, you have the opportunity to open up a self-employment retirement account. You chose the solo 401(k). I did the same thing for my business, so I know what an incredible tool it is. But that is like, if your goal is FIRE, that is really supercharging your progress compared to what you would be doing, you know, just as a grad student who’s not side hustling, so wow.

Being Selective with Clients

30:23 Emily: How are you, I don’t know, like, it seems like there are so many benefits doing it. Like you said, the money you needed it. Now it’s more of an elective thing. And the networking. How do you stay motivated to do that work?

30:36 Maya: Yeah, I think it helps that I’m just very selective in clients. And like, for example, even if the work is interesting, if the client is even kind of like slightly annoying, like if they don’t respond quickly or they like ask for a bunch of edits and don’t want to pay you extra for it, I just like don’t have a reason to take them. So I think it helps to kind of value yourself and to charge what you’re actually valued. And I would encourage people, even if they, like, I started out like, I think like 10 or $20 an hour when I first started. But every single time I got a new client, I would ratchet up that rate just a little bit. And I was expecting like, there to be kind of a cliff when no one would hire me anymore. But like, people kept hiring me.

31:09 Maya: I think some companies like, you know, even if they’re paying me a hundred dollars an hour, if I’m only doing like one or two hours of work for them, like that’s like nothing to their company budget. So even if it feels like a really high rate to you and it makes a big difference in your budget, oftentimes companies will just like take your high rate as a sign like that you must be good at what you do, and they’re willing to pay it. So I would encourage people if you’re doing any kind of side hustle to like slowly increase it until you start to like lose clients and then you can kind of back off.

Advice for Starting Freelancing

31:35 Emily: That’s really, really good advice. And do you have any advice for someone who wants to get started with this line of work? Thinking back to when you were doing it in college, like how did you get your first few clients?

31:44 Maya: Yeah, that’s definitely the hardest part is getting your foot in the door. It helps to use Upwork and those kinds of freelancing websites. Just because if you don’t have any way to like find clients, it’s pretty hard to like get them to hire you. Thos sites, you take a pretty big kind of your pay. It’s something like 20% usually, which can feel kind of painful, especially when you have to pay like 30% ish self-employment tax on top of that. But it helps to start out there. And then sometimes if you have a long-term client, you could go just like bill them directly after you’ve established yourself on there. So using those sites is helpful. And also just kind of networking. If you know like anybody in your lab or anybody else who has some experience in the area that you’re trying to get into, they’re almost always willing to help you find the job. Like I’ve given other people who I’m friends with science writing jobs. Like sometimes if I don’t have time for a client, I’ll like send them to one of my friends who wants to get started and like, they don’t have any experience yet, but because I recommended them and they trust my opinion, they’ll get that job. So those two things together, like being on the website and getting help from other people who are in that network are really helpful.

32:45 Emily: Amazing, amazing advice. And I do want to add, we did a podcast interview with Courtney Danyel in season six, episode 17. Courtney has a business called Endless Freelance Income. So she’s a freelancer herself, plus she teaches other people how to do this. So that’s a great interview also, if you want to get started with not just freelance writing, but like a variety of sort of services that you could do on a freelancing basis. So that’s incredible.

Breaking Away from the Poverty Mindset

33:07 Emily: Maya, it’s been so wonderful to catch up with you! Is there anything else that you want to add about what’s been going on with you financially over the last couple of years?

33:14 Maya: Yeah, I think it’s just definitely been a big time of transition. We’ve gone from just like being pretty much broke, like not really broke because we had an emergency fund, but feeling very broke to actually having like more than double the income we had last year. So yeah, it’s been really nice to be able to not only work toward our investment goals, but actually be able to like, as you said, buy some things that actually improve our life a little bit. Like even just small things we never would have bought last year. Like for example, we have to carry out groceries like about quarter mile from our car to our house. And so we finally bought like a wagon, like it was like a hundred dollars to buy this wagon and like, it is the best purchase we made.

33:46 Maya: Like we never would have bought that last year, but just that’s like now it seems like a small expense. It’s like, well worth it. Like recognizing those things that like, okay, now you can actually afford these things like greatly improve your life and like probably our health so that we’re not like breaking our backs with like tons of groceries. Like that’s really nice to have. So I think it’s good to recognize, like, even while you’re pursuing your investment goals, like still save a little bit to like, not be like having that poverty mindset and trying to actually improve your life a little bit too.

Financial Independence, Early Retirement (FIRE)

34:12 Emily: Totally, totally agree. And I’ll just add another question in here. Your motivation for pursuing FIRE, financial independence and early retirement. You’re in grad school, it seems like you’re planning for a long and wonderful career. How does FIRE play or not play with your career goals?

34:30 Maya: Yeah, it’s kind of a weird thing for people to say in grad school. I think sometimes it’s like, why would you go to school for this long if you don’t want to like work your career for much longer after that? I personally don’t think I would necessarily want to fully retire once I hit that number. Partly for me, it’s just a security thing. Like, you know, if I’m in a job I don’t like, and I want to maybe take a year off and go on sabbatical and then come back and maybe it’ll take me a while to find a new job. I want to be able to do that. And even if I think for now that I really love doing what I do, maybe when I’m 45, I won’t like it anymore. Maybe I’ll never want to look at a pipette ever again, who knows.

35:01 Maya: And also just the freedom for like, for example I’m really interested in the idea of working less than 40 hours a week someday. Maybe even as a freelance basis, like not necessarily in writing but maybe as a consultant or something like that, like maybe just a freelance bioinformatician. I don’t know having the freedom to do that as well is nice. So I don’t necessarily plan to do the traditional, like I hit 45 and I have X dollars, so I’m just going to retire. I have like a lot of options available to me now.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

35:26 Emily: That’s great to hear. I’m actually, well, by the time this is out, by the time we publish this, this will be out again inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. I’m currently working on writing an e-book. It’s going to be titled something like How to Pursue FIRE in Grad School. And so I just love it when I get to meet someone who is doing that and get their like reasoning behind it and how they’re doing it. And the strategies that you’re using are now going to be kind of featured in that e-book. So that’s awesome. If the listener is interested, you can check it out, PFforPhDs.Community. Maya, again, it’s been so wonderful to talk with you. Would you please answer, I don’t think you got to answer this the last time we talked, share with the listener your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

36:04 Maya: Yeah. So I’d say kind of like a three-pronged approach with it. I think, I don’t remember who, some professor told me this like a long time ago, which was like invest aggressively in your future, and then invest aggressively in your current self. And then everything that isn’t those two things, like cut out pretty ruthlessly. So I think what he meant by that was basically, you know, even if you can only invest $50 a month in your IRA, like do that and commit to it. Also invest in your current self, like, you know, these are my twenties, like I’m not going to be 25 again. So like if someone’s like going whale watching this weekend and it’s a hundred dollars, like if I can make that work, I’m going to do it. I’m not going to be like, “Oh, that could have been going into my retirement.”

36:39 Maya: So it kind of balance those things and be pretty aggressive about doing the things that are really important for your current self and your development as a human. But everything that isn’t those things, like just cut out. Like, you know, I could buy a car, it would make my life mildly more convenient to not have to bike every day. But that’s not something that I feel like really enriches me as a person, or it makes me that much happier. So I don’t do that. So I think that’d be my advice is to figure out like, what is really important to you now and in the future. And don’t feel any hesitation about having to cut out things that aren’t in those two categories.

37:08 Emily: I have never heard it put that way before, but that really resonates with me in my like current mindset towards money. So I’m really glad that you shared that with us. Maya, thank you again for joining us! It’s been wonderful to catch up with you!

37:20 Maya: It’s good to talk to you! It’s been a good three years overall, despite the rocky start.

Outtro

37:29 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 3 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and increasing cash flow. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

The Tech Entrepreneuroscientist on Happiness and Financial Independence

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Sharena Rice, who recently completed her PhD in neuroscience at the University of Michigan. At the start of grad school, Sharena defined what she considers “the good life” and made sure that she lived according to her values. She committed herself to simple living so that she could invest over half of her stipend and pursue adventures. One element of Sharena’s good life is fulfilling work, so she became involved with five start-ups during grad school to gain experience with entrepreneurship. Don’t miss this unique and insightful interview!

Links Mentioned in the Episode

the tech entrepreneuroscientist on happiness and financial independence

Teaser

00:00 Sharena: If compound interest works in this way, and I can reasonably expect this amount if things perform averagely, then this is how my future will turn out if I save an extra $5 a day, for instance. And seeing how little tweaks could make a big difference.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 12, and today my guest is Dr. Sharena Rice, who recently completed her PhD in neuroscience at the University of Michigan. At the start of grad school, Sharena defined what she considers “the good life” and made sure that she lived according to her values. She committed herself to simple living so that she could invest over half of her stipend and pursue adventures. One element of Sharena’s good life is fulfilling work, so she became involved with five start-ups during grad school to gain experience with entrepreneurship. Don’t miss this unique and insightful interview! Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Sharena Rice.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:19 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Sharena Rice. She recently defended her PhD in neuroscience at the University of Michigan. And she’s going to tell us a really exciting, big financial story about what she’s done with her finances during graduate school, and also what’s coming up next. She’s been involved with entrepreneurship, which is super exciting. So Sharena, thank you so much for volunteering to be on the podcast. And will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

01:43 Sharena: Thank you so much, Emily. I have recently defended my PhD in neuroscience from the University of Michigan. I like to refer to myself as a tech entrepreneuroscientist because I’m both a technology entrepreneur and a neuroscientist. I have roles in five different startups ranging from co-founder and a C-suite executive to advisor. And it’s been a rewarding journey.

02:10 Emily: Yeah. I’m excited to hear more about that a little bit later on. So give us an idea, like briefly, like where did you go to undergrad? Of course I mentioned University of Michigan for grad school. Like, what’s been your educational background?

02:23 Sharena: For undergrad, I studied biochemistry and molecular biology and minored in philosophy and psychology, and felt myself being pulled in these three seemingly completely different directions. But I realized that I could combine them all by being a neuroscientist. So I did a Post-baccalaureate Research Education Program, the PREP program at the University of Michigan and decided to stay for graduate school.

Money Mindset at the Start of Post-Bacc

02:51 Emily: That’s perfect. I did a post-bacc as well at the NIH before starting at Duke. And it was really, you know, during that post-bacc, I had just graduated from college, like you did, that I started learning about personal finance. Because it was for me the first time I’d had like a semi full-time income to deal with. Tell me a little bit about your money mindset, where you stood with respect to your finances, at the start of that post-bacc.

03:17 Sharena: Before my post-bacc, when I was an undergraduate, I was doing various tutoring gigs because I realized that I could make a lot more money by tutoring on my own, rather than through some kind of agency. So I started budgeting things and analyzing things and thinking through hours and how things would work out. I was wondering, okay, how do I want to make things of my life? How can I create more options for the future? Even as a person who is thinking of going into graduate school. So I read a bunch about personal finance. I got to learn about how wealth is created. Went to a lot of entrepreneurship events, went to many things about community leaders and engagement. So, one thing that I’ve realized there is that a lot of times, the smartest people, they’re not making the most money. And yet at the same time, some people who have been making a lot of money, they’re not the smartest people.

04:26 Sharena: So then, it seems like this different dimension to a lifestyle, and to the way that a person operates and carries themselves. So I had this experience as an undergrad, making these financial models in Excel spreadsheets, just for fun at first. I wanted to be able to predict the future by mathing stuff up. So I got to do that some more as a post-bacc, seeing, okay, if compound interest works in this way, and I can reasonably expect this amount, if things perform averagely, then this is how my future will turn out if I save an extra $5 a day, for instance. And seeing how little tweaks could make a big difference.

05:12 Emily: So, I love that you, you know, frame this around, like you wanting to understand how wealth was created, and I totally understand why you went down this entrepreneurial route after investigating that question. So I really want to hear how these journeys of like the PhD and entrepreneurship come together later on. I also noticed in your phrasing just there, are you a Millennial Revolution fan?

05:33 Sharena: Yes.

05:34 Emily: Okay. Yes. So for those not familiar, they have this catch phrase that’s like math stuff, I’m substituting a word, math stuff up. So, they have a very sort of unconventional approach, right? They don’t accept conventional wisdom. They reanalyze everything. Have you adopted that as well?

05:53 Sharena: Yeah. There are many things in the financial independence retire early community that I think of not as a person who necessarily wants to retire early, because if I did retire, then I would just be making more technology anyway, because this is fun for me. But as a person who wants to be doing what I’m doing because I want to do it. So that, okay, whatever job I’m in, I will be bringing my all to it because it is my choice. And wouldn’t it be great if everyone just kind of lived that way, where they’re going to work because they want to be there and they could be doing a zillion other things at that time, but it’s their choice to be working with these particular people in this particular company?

Money Mindset Growth in Grad School

06:45 Emily: I love how you phrase that. And that is such an ideal to be working toward, and certainly one that’s espoused by the financial independence community. So tell me, also, you know, we talked about your financial mindset at the start of your post-bacc. So how did that change over the course of graduate school, or hasn’t?

07:03 Sharena: It has sort of changed, to some extent. Alright. As a graduate student, I have lived in a Buddhist temple for 22 months. And during that time, I got the sense of alright, what does it really take to be happy? Because a lot of times people, they think, “Oh, if I have X amount of money up to a certain point, then I will be happier.” But if you think about it, some monastics are the happiest people in the world, despite having taken a vow of poverty. Alright. If that’s the case, then what if I just leveraged that idea where I could find joys in all kinds of things that don’t actually take money and then save a lot and it compounds over time, so that I’m just doing exactly what I want to do?

08:00 Emily: Yes. Amazing, amazing insight to receive, especially I would say, you know, early on in life to have that, because that’s something that a lot of people never come to, or it takes decades and decades of chasing after the wrong stuff to find happiness before they finally get around to the insight that you have. So that’s incredible. So you told me, when you volunteered for this interview that you saved at least 50% of your grad student stipend, on average. What? How?

Saving ~50% of Student Stipend

08:32 Sharena: I think it’s 53% at this point, and the way that I did that was, alright at the beginning, I was reading these personal finance books and doing these financial model things and thinking, okay, there are very small things that make a very large difference. So for example, I could have lived closer to my laboratory then I actually lived, and it would have cost more, but I could live slightly further. Let’s say that I need to walk an extra three minutes a day or something like that. Well, in that case, I could get a little bit of extra exercise just built into my lifestyle, but also I’m saving money by living a little bit further away. So things like that. Well, there’s the question of what do you value, and is the way that you’re spending your money reflecting those values? I have chosen to invest quite a bit in the future because that’s what I wanted to do.

09:40 Emily: I totally concur with what you’re saying. And I think that once you identify what you value, in your case, investing for the future, it makes you excited to be able to put money towards that. And it doesn’t seem like such a big sacrifice to be cutting back on your spending or choosing not to spend in some other areas of a budget. But I love the philosophical point of view, but I want to get like a little bit more practical. So for example, can we start with, do you mind sharing what your stipend was throughout graduate school?

10:08 Sharena: In my first year, the stipend was $29.6K and that eventually rose to $33K at the end.

10:19 Emily: So I think of that as like a very decent stipend. Nothing out of this world, but certainly in Ann Arbor, sort of a moderate cost of living city. It’s a decent amount of money to make, but still being able to invest and save half of that is kind of a big accomplishment. So you mentioned, you know, you were paying for housing, right, but you just chose strategically. So you were paying a little bit less for housing maybe than some of your other options. Let’s go through just like the big expenses for average Americans. So we touched on housing. What about transportation?

Biking and Cutting Food Costs

10:51 Sharena: I decided that when I was moving out to Michigan, that I wanted to have a simple life or at least simple in terms of material possessions. So my first year when I was here, as a post-bacc, I didn’t have a bed frame, for instance. I just had a mattress on the floor because I didn’t know exactly where I would be for grad school. And when it came to transportation, I just rode a bicycle around. I’ve lost a lot of weight as a grad student and also was able to get from place to place. People ask, “Oh, Michigan has snow. How do you deal with that?” The answer is, “I bike anyway, the roads are cleared. Salt happens. I just bike.”

11:36 Emily: I’m glad you headed off that question. Okay. So no car, cycling lifestyle. What about food? Do you have any particular kind of diet that you follow that happens to be low cost? Or what are your strategies around there?

11:49 Sharena: If you think about it, a lot of places in world where there aren’t that many health issues like cancer and diabetes, they have this really simple diet of, they just pretty much eat rice and vegetables and they don’t have that much meat to them or anything like that because that’s what is available to them. So then I’ve pretty much been eating like a peasant and being just happy with that. Learned to make a really good stir fry, learned to make really good lemon garlic pasta.

Investment Strategy

12:25 Emily: Yeah. So I think we can clearly see from those three big categories that you just sort of slotted yourself on the low-cost end of the spectrum that you could spend in each of those areas. So you mentioned this 50% savings rate, investing rate. What were you investing in? Was it like the stuff I talk about all the time, like index funds and Roth IRAs, or are you doing that plus other stuff? Let us know what your investment strategy is.

12:48 Sharena: At first, I just invested in some stocks from companies that I liked and thought had good leadership to them. So for example, Costco notoriously treats their employees well, and I liked that. So I invested in them. And the Home Depot, well, it seems to be quite a good company, too. So I invested in some individual stocks at first, and then learned that there was this thing called index investing and then switched mostly to that. I also own some real estate investment trusts and some worthy bonds and a tiniest amount of crypto. I just bought $20 worth of Bitcoin for fun, and then laughed as it went up and down and up and down.

13:38 Emily: Yeah. So I like that. So like bulk of your investments are tried and true index funds, hands-off approach, but you have these few other holdings that you’ve, you know, intentionally selected that are sometimes interesting to track. Okay, well, that’s awesome for your investment strategy.

Commercial

13:57 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Our next live discussion and Q&A call is on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to PFforPhDs.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

Living the “Good Life”

15:09 Emily: You also told me when you volunteered that you have been focused on living the good life on, as we were just saying, less than 50% of your stipend. What does it mean to you to live the good life and how have you been doing that during grad school?

15:24 Sharena: I think that the good life, it is a life that I am doing fulfilling things in that I’m growing in and that I feel connected with other people in. So part of this is, alright. What does it mean to live life to the fullest? I think that it’s investments, not only in terms of money, but also investments in other things that compound interest such as health, and friends and family, and making connections. But also there’s the shenanigans. And that’s a lot of fun, too. I went to Puerto Rico with nothing but a backpack this one time, because people were telling me you need a vacation. I was working in lab on Thanksgiving this one time and thought, well, I have to see the world. I’ve never been out of the country before. So I’m going to book a trip to Rome. So that’s exactly what I did. And then eventually I went to Rome.

16:29 Sharena: But also, when it comes to the good life, there is work as a big part of it. I think a lot of us, a lot of our identity is in what we do for work. I was very lucky to be in a laboratory that was just starting up. So I could be at the forefront of bringing new processes to life. And I just loved that, even though it may have been frustrating to some people who just want to move on with their lives. And they want to get into a place where everything is already set up for them. But working with machines, that was a big part of it, too. I just love machines and the ways that they work and how animals and machines could create systems.

17:22 Emily: I think that those elements that you identified of a good life are ones that are probably to some degree shared by just about everybody. But I definitely encourage the listener, and I need to do this as well, just to periodically, like, think about what brings you joy, what brings you satisfaction, and then do that next step of connecting, “Well, how do these things that I want to pursue in my life, that I want to have in my life, how does having money or spending money help me fulfill those? Or are there ways to fulfill these without spending a lot of money?” Some of the things you mentioned are, you know, such intangibles like connections with friends and family, like sometimes money can help that, but it definitely isn’t required to do so. So I think all of these things are, you know, achievable at whatever level of income that you’re at. You just have to find a way to fit it in with your lifestyle at that time, which you clearly have done.

Entrepreneurship Journey

18:13 Emily: So let’s talk next about your entrepreneurship experience. You know, there’s been a theme of that already through this interview of finding fulfilling work and, “Hey, even if you had infinite choices because of your finances, you know, because you’re financially independent, you would still choose to work in some capacity.” Tell us, you know, how you got involved with these like five companies that you mentioned earlier and just what’s your entrepreneurship journey been during grad school?

18:35 Sharena: I received a message out of the blue on LinkedIn this one time from the founder of a computer vision company for pedestrian behavior prediction. He wanted to meet up with me. He was in Ann Arbor. I was in an Ann Arbor. So we met up and we talked. And he showed me what he currently had in terms of the pedestrian behavior software. On the spot, I came up with several ways that it could be improved. And to me it just made a lot of sense. So then he offered me the opportunity to be his co-founder. And from then on, we continued co-founding this company and building it up more and more and more. We have been a fantastic team, where he goes out and he gives a lot of pitches and manages a lot of the day-to-day stuff while I have been a grad student who has had to mostly work on lab things. But this worked out because a lot of the things that I did were about ideation and about intellectual property and things that were not bound to a certain time of the day.

20:00 Emily: So that’s one of the companies that you co-founded, then. Can you just tell us briefly, maybe a couple other examples of how you got involved with some of these other companies, especially for someone who’s thinking, wow, I’d love to get involved with entrepreneurship as a grad student, how that happened?

20:14 Sharena: The second company that I co-founded, that was a vertical spinoff for devops and for freelancers. So, the second company came out of the first company. As for the rest of them, the first company that I started advising, that actually came about because I saw that they had a product, I signed up to be a tester for it, and I wrote in the comments box, “Would be interested in helping the founders.” We had a wonderful conversation, and I became their advisor. Then, I started talking with people on the Clubhouse App, eventually, about technology. Got into lots and lots of conversations, which eventually evolved into Zoom conversations, which eventually, at the end of those conversations, often led to offers of, “Wait, I’m starting a company soon. Would you be interested in working with us on some sort of development.” Usually a development, of something between a machine and a human in the loop, which is exactly what I love. So then I said yes to them.

Funding Structure in Grad School

21:28 Emily: So I would just very broadly sum that up as like networking, and just like being open to conversations, offering help. I mean, it sounds like you offered help initially in at least two of these scenarios without yet any expectation of a return, but just putting value out there and some good things came back from it. So I understand that you were not able to be paid by any of these companies because of something about your funding structure. Would you tell us a little bit more about that?

21:59 Sharena: Yeah. My graduate program does not allow anyone to receive money or equity in exchange for work for a company outside of the university while they’re still a student. So there’s the question of, okay, given that this is the case, then how do I set things up so that things will work out. And the answer is, work with legal documentation, and just create a vesting structure so that right after you graduate, then that’s when a cliff happens and then you will receive your funding, your equity, your compensation, at that point.

22:40 Emily: I mean this as a complete compliment, but that seems like such a loophole, right? Because like you’re clearly putting in the time, the work, adding your expertise during the time of your graduate program. In your case, you still finished, it’s all good, right? Like it didn’t detract from that PhD journey. But you just arranged for the payment to happen later. And I give this to you as a compliment because I think it’s a great creative solution to this problem in case anybody else is running into it, but also want to voice that I completely disagree with your program. My basic philosophy around this is like, if you’re doing well in your program and you’re advancing and you’re doing the work that needs to be done, and your advisor’s happy with you, the university should keep its nose out of the rest of your business. In terms of whether you’re earning money or not, or equity or not, or whatever you want to do with the rest of your time should be yours. That’s my position. Do you know if this has any motivation in terms of like the university can then claim ownership over like the company? Is that the reason why they have that kind of verbiage?

Consider Grad Programs that Encourage Direct Experiences

23:39 Sharena: I think that they have it because of the way that academia used to work and how academics or people who are in PhD programs used to be thought of. It used to be thought of that a person has to just work, work, work on their thesis, and that that is enough. But if you actually want to make it as an entrepreneur, how do you do that without having actual experience? My experience makes me very rare. There aren’t very many PhDs who are just graduating from their program with this much experience, as an entrepreneur. A person can take classes. I was encouraged to take classes when I said that I wanted to be an entrepreneur. But no, they didn’t want me to actually do anything in a company. But I wanted to be an entrepreneur, partly because I wanted to do change the world in a positive way to promote road safety, for instance, with my pedestrian behavior prediction company.

24:47 Emily: Yeah. I am so glad that you shared this experience with us because I think it’s really instructive. Like if anybody else like you, and I’m not criticizing you by saying this, but if anybody else like you knows that they’re quite interested in pursuing entrepreneurship during the graduate program, once you’re going around and interviewing and talking to various advisors or whatever, like that’s something to bring up. Does your program have a prohibition on me starting a company or me having equity in a company that I advise during the course of this program. And, you know, maybe use that to help you make a decision about where you should end up in terms of a graduate program. I am a little bit surprised to hear about that from Michigan.

What’s Next for You?

25:23 Emily: Let’s talk about what’s next, then. You just said that you’re a unique kind of PhD with this sort of experience. What is the next step in your career, having just defended?

25:33 Sharena: Given that I have positions in five different companies, I think that I need to create a portfolio that I will call Yellow Pill Ventures. There’s this narrative sometimes that you can either make a profit or you can make a positive difference in the world. But I think that the two can really come together, and that can be by premise of my portfolio. Aside from Yellow Pill Ventures, I will also be pursuing a career in big tech. And the reason why big tech is because they already have the infrastructures place to bring ideas to life quickly. It’s not like we have to wait to hire software developers, for instance, but that they are already within the company. They’re ready to receive work. So between the two, I think of it as Nassim Nicholas Taleb’s Barbell Strategy of you put 80 to 90% of your time into something that’s completely stable, and you put 10 to 20% of your time into moonshot things, but that there’s not very much in the middle in terms of risk. That way, if the moonshots just do not pan out, then you are perfectly fine. If your perfectly fine thing, well, it’s not enough for you because you still have ideas that just are not relevant to your so-called real job. Then, well, they’re still manifested in the world with this possibility of actually taking off.

27:11 Emily: I love that idea. I love that you shared that analogy, and I think it pairs so well with FIRE, right? You have your job, like you had your stipend, you know, during graduate school. You’re doing all the great things to put yourself on the track for financial independence. And at the same time, you’re taking, well maybe not taking risks, but you have those possibilities of moonshots, like you were just saying. So I love that approach. Where can people find you in case they’re thinking, “Oh gosh, Sharena would be perfect for my company”?

27:41 Sharena: You can find me on LinkedIn. I am Sharena Rice. S H A R E N A and then space, R I C E. And I am @SharenaRice on Twitter as well. And on Clubhouse.

27:56 Emily: Absolutely. Perfect. I will note that we’re recording this in August, 2021. So possibly by the time it’s come out, someone might go to your LinkedIn profile and find that you’re already on to your next big job, your next big position. But in case you are still looking, they should check you out.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

28:10 Emily: Okay. Well, let’s conclude with the question that I ask of all of my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

28:19 Sharena: The answer to that is just start. A person does not need to know everything. They don’t really need to know, “Okay. What are absolutely all of the investment options? What is the exact risk of everything.” But rather, “Okay, what is something that’s reasonable, that I feel comfortable with?” That’s a good place to start. There’s a narrative in academia, it seems, that grad students, they shouldn’t care about money. Or that that’s kind of a problem for their future self to think about rather than their current self. But habits, they compound over time. Mindsets, they compound over time and spread. So, it’s good to just start where you are and to just learn where you can. And actually start conversations with the people in your life who may know something or not know anything about finances, just to make it more of a conversation rather than something that people are just hushed about.

29:36 Emily: I love that advice. I love how we saw in this part of your story that you shared today, we saw that advice reflected. And this has been a really thought-provoking interview for me. So thank you so much, Sharena, for joining me.

29:48 Sharena: Thank you so much, Emily!

Outtro

29:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD Got a Late Start Financially But Is on Track to Retire Early

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In this episode, Emily interview Dr. Sean Sanders, Director and Senior Editor for Custom Publishing for the journal Science and Program Director for Outreach. Sean came to the US for a postdoc position with little savings. Living in the DC area on a postdoc salary was financially challenging; he didn’t start to make real progress with his finances until he left his postdoc for an industry job, which more than doubled his salary. Sean and Emily discuss the strategies he has used to build wealth in the last decade, from moving to reduce housing expenses to retirement investing to purchasing real estate. They go into great detail about Sean’s passive investing strategy and the mistakes he made in the past. Sean lists his favorite books and podcasts on personal finance that he has used to improve his knowledge over the years.

This is post contains affiliate links. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!

Links Mentioned

PhD early retirement

Teaser

00:00 Sean: When I was thinking about being a scientist, I always had the impression that scientists are poor. We never make money, and that you did research because you loved it. You know, when I moved over to the USA, I really didn’t have much in savings, so I didn’t really think about it very much. I had to learn from scratch once I moved to the US and once I had a little bit of income to invest, that’s really when I started thinking about what I wanted to do with it.

Introduction

00:33 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode eight, and today my guest is Dr. Sean Sanders, director and senior editor for custom publishing for the journal Science and program director for outreach. Sean came to the US for a postdoc position with little savings. Living in the DC area on a postdoc salary was financially challenging. He didn’t start to make real progress with his finances until he left his postdoc for an industry job, which more than doubled his salary. Sean and I discuss the strategies. He is used to build wealth in the last decade or so, from moving to reduce housing expenses, to retirement investing, to purchasing real estate. We have a particularly involved and enjoyable discussion of Sean’s passive investing strategy and the mistakes he made in the past. We also swap recommendations of personal finance websites, books, and podcasts. Sean is now on track to retire early, and I’m sure his story will give hope to other PhDs who have, or will enter their thirties without any appreciable savings. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Sean Sanders.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:50 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Sean Sanders. Sean works for AAAS and actually we met recently and did an event together at the end of 2019, Fiscal Fitness for Scientists. We’ll link it up from the show notes is a great event that Sean moderated and I was part of the panel. That’s how we first connected, but as we talked more and more at that event, I realized that Sean has an amazing story of his own to tell with respect to his own personal finances, so that’s what we’re going to be discussing today. Sort of how his career has evolved and also his finances, alongside those. Sean it’s really a pleasure to have you joining me here, and will you please introduce yourself further for the audience?

02:29 Sean: Hi, Emily. Thank you so much for inviting me, for the opportunity to talk to your audience. It really is a great pleasure for me to be here. I think we had some fantastic conversations when we met and I’m so pleased to share a little bit more of my story. I’m currently the director and senior editor for custom publishing at Science, here in Washington, DC. I’ve been in this position about 13 years now, but I actually started out as a research scientist. To give you a very overview of my career arc is I started my studies in South Africa. I grew up in Cape Town. I did my undergrad at the University of Cape Town. I then did a one year what we call an honors degree, which is equivalent to a one year masters. I took a break for a while and then I did a PhD actually at University of Cambridge in the UK. I was very fortunate to get in there. Following that, I moved over to the US to do a postdoc at national institutes of health, doing cancer research. I then moved on to a second postdoc at Georgetown University. I was there for about a year and a half, and then a few things happened, which we’ll probably get into a little bit later in the podcast, and I ended up moving into industry, into a small biotech company where I was for about three and a half years. Then got laid off from that, and that’s another story in itself. Then I moved into publishing and I joined the journal BioTechniques for a couple of years. Then, I finally got an offer at Science and I’ve been here for 13 years now. It’s quite a convoluted journey, but it’s been really interesting. And obviously I’ve learned a lot of things along the way.

Early Career Money Mindset

04:09 Emily: Yeah, love it. We’ll be hearing about a few of those as we go forward. Going back to your days in training during your PhD and your postdoc, was your plan to stay in academia and that changed during that second post doc. And then alongside that, with your plan to be in academia, how were you handling your finances at that time? And what was your view of finances generally?

04:29 Sean: When I was thinking about being a scientist, I always had the impression that scientists are poor. We never make money and that you did research because you loved it. And that’s what I wanted to do. I really had just a great passion for research. I really enjoyed investigating. So that’s what I wanted to do. When I was doing my undergraduate, I didn’t really think about finances. I didn’t have much money, even when I moved over to the US I, I really didn’t have much in savings. I didn’t really think about it very much. I had to learn from scratch once I moved to the US and once I had a little bit of income to invest, that’s really when I started thinking about what I wanted to do with it.

05:15 Emily: You’re referencing your move to the US, is that a thing in and of itself, your move to the US, or is it more that you were just advancing in your career and it was a later stage and you were earning more money?

05:26 Sean: I think it was a little bit of both. I was a student through the time that I was in the UK at Cambridge University. As a student, I had a very generous scholarship from the Welcome trust, and I actually managed to save a little bit of money to bring over to the US, but it wasn’t more than a few thousand dollars, so I really was starting from scratch. I didn’t have any income to save and at that point, I didn’t even know what a retirement account was.

05:54 Emily: Yeah. I mean, the transition to the US also comes getting used to a whole other financial system, which I think we’ll talk about more in a moment. So your view was that scientists are always poor. That was your plan. Did you think that would even be the case once you got the tenure track job? You just really thought that was going to be your whole life?

06:13 Sean: Yeah. I didn’t think that scientists earned more than like $70,0000 or $80,000. And, you did it for the love of it. You were working off grants, so you never really made a lot of money. I didn’t ever think that I would be able to retire any time before 65, 70.

Changes in Finances Leads to Changes in Money Mindset

06:31 Emily: Got it. But you mentioned earlier that sometime during your second postdoc, something happened, something changed. Can you tell that story please?

06:38 Sean: Sure. As I said, I was at NIH for about three and a half years, and then I moved to Georgetown University. One thing that I should share with everyone is coming from South Africa, when I moved to NIH, I was on a J-1 visa. I’m not sure if your audience are familiar with this, some probably are, but it’s a training visa. While you’re on a training visa, you’re essentially like a student. You don’t pay taxes like a worker does, and you don’t pay social security. You don’t pay Medicare. Any of that. Now, the advantage of that is there’s more money in your pocket. The disadvantage is you don’t have that social safety net. When I moved to Georgetown University, I got into an H visa, which is what I wanted, because that’s a working visa and enabled me to stay in the country for longer and also progress to a green card, which I eventually did. But what comes along with that is all these other taxes. I had to pay federal tax. I had to pay state tax. I even had to pay county tax in Montgomery County, which was a huge surprise. When I was thinking about this job and looking at the finances and seeing what they would pay me, I didn’t even think about all these additional taxes and I didn’t do my due diligence, and that really came back to bite me.

07:53 Emily: I want to add in there that this is not even necessarily a story that’s unique to someone switching visa types or anything, or becoming a resident. This is something that can happen. I think even moving from graduate school to the postdoc level, or postdoc to another type of job. The reason is not regarding income tax, but regarding payroll tax. As graduate students, generally speaking students, don’t pay payroll ta, that is for social security and Medicare. They have a student exemption. Also anyone who’s not receiving wages, so anyone on fellowship, non W2, they also aren’t paying payroll tax. So getting out of those kinds of training stages, that payroll tax can be, it’s like 7.65% on the employee side, so if you weren’t expecting that, it can be a shock. For you the shock was bigger, because it is not only payroll, but it’s also income taxes and other things, but just wanted to point out like other people need a little heads up about this as well.

08:45 Sean: Right. I wasn’t completely ignorant to the federal taxes I’d had have to pay, but it was just everything at the same time. On top of that, I found out that I had to pay for parking on campus, which I didn’t know about and that was an extra hundred dollars a month or something. All of these things sort of piled on top of each other and then I’d been there for about a year and I read a story in the local paper about what garbage collectors or sanitation engineers, I guess they call them, were being paid, and it was actually a couple of thousand dollars more than I was being paid as a postdoc. Not to take anything away from any kind of employment, it’s all honest work, but I felt that with all the work that I put in to get these higher degrees, I really wasn’t doing myself any justice by being in a position where I wasn’t getting paid, what I thought I was worth.

09:39 Sean: I made a decision at that point to start looking around and I started doing a search for a job in industry, and I was very fortunate to find something up in Massachusetts. The thing is it’s something that probably affects a lot of your listeners is that you can’t always make easy moves, geographically. Some people have families, they have kids, they have spouses. I was in the fortunate position that I could, so I looked very broadly around the country. I looked on the West Coast, I looked up in New England, and I found a great position in Massachusetts, and almost instantaneously I’m more than doubled my salary. I’ve heard of some people calling this geographic arbitrage where you’re willing to move to a different place for our highest salary, and that’s what I did. And although I didn’t love living in Massachusetts, the snow was horrendous, but it was worthwhile for me, and it really set me off on a new financial path, where I could actually save some money and invest in my future.

Making Lifestyle Changes to Increase Savings

10:38 Emily: Yeah. Please elaborate on that. What were the changes that you started making in that time with the higher salary?

10:45 Sean: Well, I think probably the biggest thing was just starting to put away money in savings. As I’m sure you’ve talked about, the first thing I did is I started an emergency fund. I brought up about three months of savings. I also put money into my company’s 401k, immediately. It was as soon as I could, I think it was six months before I could vest. There were also some stock options, which ended up not being worth anything because the company to go under, but it was, it was things that I needed to think about and learn.

11:18 Sean: I started really focusing on living below my means because actually when I was at Georgetown University, I actually found that from the numbers that I looked at, I was actually losing money. So I was spending more than I was earning. Part of that was living in Montgomery County, which was expensive.

11:37 Emily: If you don’t mind, just how were you financing that. If you were actually losing money, was it savings previously built up that you’re drawing down or were you accumulating consumer net?

11:47 Sean: No, it wasn’t debt. I just couldn’t come out on what I was earning. At the time was paying about $800 or $900 a month in rent and that was about 40% or 50% of my income. I didn’t go out that much, but you want a little bit of spending money and I was paying all these other things. I was paying for parking. And I was managing to save a little bit, but really not much. It just made it clear to me that I needed to find some way to focus a bit more on my financial future and get the kind of position where I could actually save and have something in retirement.

12:27 Emily: Yeah. One thing that I discuss during the seminars that I give at universities, one of the points I try to make is that there’s a lot that you can do within your finances while in training, regarding frugality and finding the low rent place to live or what have you. But ultimately, the best thing you can do for your career is to finish that training, be out of graduate school, be out of the post doc, and get that your full salary. The point that I’m trying to make is, although I love to talk about frugal strategies and I love to talk about side hustling and all that stuff, none of that should distract you from just progressing in your career and moving on and getting that higher salary. When you did that, when you achieved that, and you decided, okay, we’re ending this postdoc, I’m getting another type of position, you said that you were focusing on living beneath your means, but I wonder how that compared to your lifestyle when you were at Georgetown. When you got the new job, did you consciously increase your lifestyle in any way, yet still live beneath your means, or were you trying to keep it pretty much feeling like you had during your postdoc?

13:30 Sean: No, I was very focused on saving as much as I could because, at that point I was in my thirties already and I really had very little savings to speak of, and I knew that I really had to start doing something, because I didn’t want to reach 35 or 40 and not have any savings. I’ve always focused on living beneath my means. I can tell you, just an interesting story. When I was up in Massachusetts, I had a coworker who I remember was talking about leasing a car with her husband, and they turned in their previous car. They were paying something like $500 a month or something exorbitant like that. They turned in the car and they could’ve got a cheaper car, but instead they got a better car, a fancier car for the same payment. And that made absolutely no sense to me. Why wouldn’t you get the same car or similar car that’s cheaper and pay $350 a month. That was a mentality that I never understood and I didn’t want to fall into that trap. The way I looked at it is I’m going to get the cheapest car I can. I buy a second hand car, drive it into the ground. I’m going to spend as little as possible on rent. And in fact, what I did is I moved three times in five years while I was up in Massachusetts, both to get closer to work, so my commute was shorter, but also to save on rent. The one move that I made was into a new condo unit that had just been refurbished and they were giving a special for the year and two months of free rent. I stayed there for the year and then I moved. Again, if you’re able to do something like that, you can save quite a lot of money. And I mean, it probably saved me about $5,000.

15:08 Emily: Yeah. This is a strategy that I also try to mention because it’s one I used during graduate school. For example, I moved a couple of times specifically because okay, our rent is increasing, we know what else is around, that’s available. Can you talk about how you actually executed that though? Because it is a really daunting thing to both research a new place to live and then actually execute the move, and it can be expensive too. How did you do this, and still come out ahead financially?

15:32 Sean: As far as moving, you just got to have very patient friends who are willing to help you move. And I always depended on them. I tapped into my network and I’d hire a U-Haul and throw everything in there and move to the next place. Actually, just to add a little bit to the story, once I I’d been at this company for about three and a half years, the company ran out of funding, we were venture capitalist funded, and I got laid off along with the rest of most of the rest of the business. I decided I’d have to move. I couldn’t afford the apartment that I was in. I moved from a two bedroom apartment to a one bedroom, a little bit away from the main part of the city, so it was cheaper. The commute was a little bit longer, but it was definitely worthwhile. Again, I saved quite a lot of money that way. To your question about how I did it, I would just always be keeping a lookout for new places. Both as I drove around and online, I’d constantly be researching, see if there were any deals. And to this day, I do things like that with for instance, CD rates. I look every couple of months just to see where the certificate of deposit rates are, see if I can get a better deal some way. If there’s a good savings account that I can move my money into, my emergency fund, just to get maybe a half a percent or percent more.

16:55 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you’re just kind of keeping a pulse on the market. Whatever markets you’re involved in, you’re keeping an eye on it to see if there’s a better deal available.

New Financial Goals

17:03 Emily: Okay, so when you increased your salary, you moved to Boston, eventually, of course, you found yourself back in the DC area, you mentioned using the 401k available to you through work, you mentioned living beneath your means consciously. It sounds like you didn’t have any debt or no significant debt to work on. Were there any other financial goals that you’ve set for yourself, with this higher salary?

17:31 Sean: Not really. I’m not much of a goal setter, and that’s probably one of my downfalls. I don’t have a budget. I feel that I just spend as little as possible. I would do things like I would eat out very seldom. I’d rather get takeout or cook at. I was not married, I didn’t have kids, and I know that definitely adds complications to everyone’s stories. I was very fortunate, from that point of view. And I really just wanted to build up as much savings as I could and put the maximum into whatever retirement funds that I could, just to really build up a nest egg for myself in retirement. And also, my parents were aging at that point and I wanted to make sure that if necessary, I could provide for them.

18:20 Sean: Then the other thing that I had in mind is that I did eventually want to buy a property to live in. That was sort of one of my goals. I wasn’t saving consciously towards that as in, I didn’t set aside a separate bank account and put in money for a down payment, which some people say is a good way to do it, sort of use the bucket mentality. I was thinking about the future, but not in any specific way, but I did know that eventually I wanted to be a homeowner and have a place that I could call my own, that I knew I couldn’t get kicked out of because somebody wanted to raise the rent.

18:57 Emily: And has that happened? Have you purchased a home?

18:59 Sean: I did. When I moved back to Washington to my, my position at Science and AAAS, I decided…well, actually my thought process was, I think you’re old enough now you should get a place of your own, so I bought a condo in an area called Columbia Heights, which is an up and coming area in DC. I was quite strategic in doing that. I wanted an area that had recently been revitalized and that was not too expensive, but that I saw some opportunity. Also DC, as you probably know, is a city that will always have people coming to live there. It’s a huge itinerant population that are coming to work for government, for law firms, et cetera. I thought having a place there would be good because when I eventually upgraded or got married or moved out, I’d be able to rent it. That’s actually what I’m doing. I lived in the unit for eight years and I’ve been renting it now for five years, and basically my rent covers my mortgage payment and the condo fees with a little bit of extra. It’s worked out really well.

20:01 Emily: Nice. Have you bought another property or are you renting again your primary residence?

20:05 Sean: No, I actually, I got married, and I moved into my now wife’s house, up here in Silver Spring. I’m looking to possibly buy another rental property, an investment property, but this area is really, really expensive and you need to find just the right place to make it worthwhile, and it’s really tough. I’ve been looking for over a year now and it’s very difficult.

Commercial

20:34 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

Financial Strategies and Advice

21:20 Emily: Okay. Yeah. So I think we’ve gotten a good landscape of the goals that you had — saving cash, using your 401k, buying property, and some of the strategies that you use, but were there any other strategies that you’d like to throw out there for the audience? Anything you’ve tried and found works really well for you?

21:37 Sean: As I mentioned, I’m as frugal as I can be. I try to live below my means and save as much as I can. The other thing that I learned in the last few years is that…Well, let me take a step back. When I moved to the NIH and I started investing, I had a little bit of extra money, I got advice from the banker who was at the local Crest Star branch, which is, I think became SunTrust eventually. There was a little bank at the NIH and he recommended some stocks that I could invest in, some mutual funds, and I didn’t know any better, so I put some money into that, but I learned over the years about what kind of fees are involved, especially with mutual funds.

22:21 Sean: I started reading and listening to podcasts, and my strategy now really is all index fund investing. I invest in ETFs, exchange traded funds. They have very low expense ratios, usually less than 1%, and I have no doubt on your show, you’ve talked about the power of compounding. If you start early and save, by the time you get to retirement, you’ll have a good nest egg. The same applies for expenses, sort of in reverse. If you have very high expenses on your investments, you’re going to lose a lot of that money. I recognized that I had not done my due diligence on the type of funds that I was investing in. There’s a few people that I follow that I’ll maybe mention some of the podcasts that I listened to who talk about index fund investing and how much more efficient it is than investing in especially managed mutual funds, where you’re paying 1%, 2%, sometimes 3% or 4% in the expense ratio.

Investing Strategies and Tips

23:22 Emily: Yeah. I do want to elaborate on that because investing and the specifics, like this, are not something that we talk about on the podcast, as much as I would like to, because I love the subject. Expense ratios, for those who don’t know, it’s just kind of a catch all number representing how expensive it is to own that fund. And basically whatever amount of return you’re getting, you have to subtract those fees, those expenses right off of it. So if over the long-term, you might expect like an 8% average annual rate of return, if you have a 1% fee that you’re paying, it knocks you down to 7%. And while that doesn’t necessarily sound like a lot, like 1% doesn’t necessarily strike you as very high, I’ve seen calculations on this, where it can result in a net worth decrease over the decades of hundreds of thousands of dollars ,for just paying something like a 1% fee, where you could have gotten with an ETF or an index fund, maybe 0.1%, maybe 0.05%, maybe 0% in some cases. So there are much less expensive funds out there, and the expense of owning an actively managed mutual fund is one of the reasons why index funds and ETFs are actually, in the long-term, better investments in the sense that you end up with more money in your pocket, usually, when you invest in those kinds of vehicles, rather than actively managed mutual funds. Expenses are one of the big reasons why that is the case. Do you agree, would you like to elaborate at all?

24:40 Sean: Absolutely. I think we’re singing from the same hymnal. I completely agree and for the scientists out there, as much of your audience is, there is a lot of good research that shows that investing in managed mutual funds is not beneficial to you. You actually end up making less money than if you invest in exchange traded funds. The reason is that the management of the funds will sometimes be good for a few years, but then they always going to have downtimes, and the success of the fund really has very little to do with the manager. There are very few people in this world who actually know how to invest well in the stock market, and maybe just a few people like Warren Buffet and Jack Bogle are ones that maybe it would come to mind. But really for the majority of us, we don’t have the time or the resources to really understand every single stock that we invest in.

25:39 Sean: Just to talk a little bit more about ETFs, essentially what you’re doing with an ETF is similar to a mutual fund, where you are investing in a basket of companies. So instead of just investing in a single stock, so say I buy Amazon or Apple, I invest in the broad market. Say I have a Vanguard total stock market ETF, and that basically encapsulate the entire stock market, and that way it protects you against volatility and risk. You’re not going to make the same returns as if you invested say in Facebook 10 years ago, and now it’s worth 20 times as much as it was, but slow and steady wins the race as far as I’m concerned. You’re not going to lose your pants by investing all your money in a company, or in Bitcoin, or something scary like that.

26:27 Emily: Yeah. Lots of good long-term investing principles and philosophies that we’re throwing out there. Anything more that you’d like to say about investing or other strategies you’ve been using?

26:37 Sean: Maybe I’ll just talk a little bit about some of the other ETFs invest in. I will mention before the end of the podcast, a few resources that I really like. But from the advice that I’ve read, really the methodology that I follow is to get broad market funds. I invest in the total stock markets. Then I have a little bit of money in small cap and medium cap ETFs, or mid cap ETFs. Then I also have some in an international equity ETF, and all of these actually are through Vanguard. I did want to mention this because you did mention that there are some expense ratios that are zero, and there are companies now, including Vanguard and Fidelity that are offering some of their ETFs at a zero expense ratio, which is fantastic. And a lot of them also offer free investing so that there’s no charge to purchase these ETFs, and I think that’s a great deal.

27:37 Sean: Then the other two areas of the market that I do invest in are a total bond market ETF, as well as a REIT which is a real estate investment ETF. Basically, it’s very similar to the other ETFs that invest in companies that are invested in real real estate. And the reason I do that is just to diversify. Generally, REITs don’t move with as much volatility as the rest of the markets, so they’re a little bit more stable, but they’re not quite as as low return as bonds are. They’re kind of between stocks and bonds. I have it a little bit, maybe about 10 or 15% of my portfolio in that.

29:19 Emily: I think what you’re describing, it might for the uninitiated listener, sound a little bit complicated. You’ve thrown out maybe five, half a dozen different ETFs you’re invested in, but to my ear, what this is, is a well diversified and an appropriate asset allocation for you and your investing goals. And you need a few different ones of these buckets to make those two things happen. But the actual investments that you’re in are all in themselves well-diversified and across market sectors. You are not for example, picking individual stocks. As you mentioned, you had done that in the past, or your advisor was telling you how to do that in the past. You’re also not picking market sectors. I didn’t hear you say, Oh, well, I’m invested in a special biotech ETF, or a special some other one. You’re going for something that’s representative of full market sectors. You are really avoiding the kind of psychological traps that we can easily fall into around investing, of thinking we know where the market’s going or one segment of the market, so I appreciate that approach. Are those kinds of things that you’ve done in the past and that you’ve learned from and changed your approach, or did you avoid some of those pitfalls entirely?

29:23 Sean: I think it’s been an evolution over the years that I’ve sort of moved more and more towards ETFs as I’ve become more comfortable with them. Really, I went from investing in individual stocks to investing in mutual funds and then into ETFs. I did want to make the point though, that I don’t want to tell you shouldn’t invest in individual funds or in more narrow market ETFs, but just do your due diligence. And also, one of my mantras is I don’t invest money that I can’t afford to lose. If there is money that I need say in the next couple of years, that is not money that’s going to be in the stock market. I’m investing long-term. In fact, in my investment account, I’ve sold very few of my stocks. I’ve sold some of the original ones that were high expense ratios and some of the individual stocks, but I really haven’t sold much except to rebalance. I’m investing for the long-term. I’m putting money in, I’m not taking much money out. If you think you’re going to need to buy a house in the next five years, that money shouldn’t be in the stock market, that should be in something safer.

30:30 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree with you. You mentioned earlier using your 401k — are all of your investments inside that 401k, or do you use other kinds of vehicles as well, like an IRA or a taxable investment account?

30:42 Sean: I try to max out my 401k. I actually have a 403b, which is essentially the nonprofit version of a 401k because I work for a nonprofit, AAAA. I do also put as much money as I can, as I’m allowed, into a traditional IRA. There’s also a Roth IRA that’s available to some people. There is a cap on your income where you can no longer invest in a Roth IRA, but if you are able to I’d recommend that as well. And then I also have just a straight brokerage account where I put in after tax money. Anything that’s left over goes into that.

31:24 Emily: I do want to mention, because this is a conversation about investing, at least it’s part of it, that earlier, 2019 and prior, graduate students and postdocs who are on fellowship, who did not have W-2 income, they were not able to contribute that non-W-2 fellowship income to IRAs, but starting in 2020, that law has changed and you are now able to contribute non-W-2 fellowship income to IRA. So anyone who had learned about that old system, but hadn’t yet heard about the update, I want to throw that out there for them, that you are able to now use that kind of vehicle, even if you have non-W-2 fellowship would come during graduate school or your post doc.

32:01 Sean: That is great news.

Financial Literacy Resources

32:03 Emily: What we’ve come to, I think is kind of a very…I don’t necessarily want to see sophisticated because it’s also simple, but a well-tuned practice of your personal finances. You’ve mentioned a couple of times, maybe you can take a little bit more time now to say, how did you actually come to this point? How did you learn about all these different strategies and start to implement them? Because it’s not something that many of us would get from our mother’s knee, for example.

32:33 Sean: When I moved to this country, I was very fortunate to meet somebody who already worked at the NIH, who kind set me on the right path. His name is Chi Kang and he’s still a good friend of mine. We’ve known each other for more years than I can count. He gave me some really great advice to start off. One that I remember is as soon as you come to the country, start building up a credit history. Even if you don’t need credit, take out a small loan for a car or something like that, because you really need that later on in life, if you plan to stay in the country.

33:03 Sean: Really, I just enjoyed reading articles, online reading books. I’m something of an autodidact, so I like to learn myself. I don’t necessarily like being taught things. I just love to read as widely as possible. I kind of got into a little bit of the wrong track early on when I started reading magazines like Money. They used to make my head spin because they’re always jumping around from the latest thing to the next latest thing that you need to invest in. And I realized when I learned a bit more, that they’re really just selling a magazine. I don’t think there’s really good information there. Once more articles started getting online and more podcasts became available, that really became my primary source. There’s a really fantastic series that it gets quite deep into the weeds, but you can take away what you want from it. But there’s a guy named J.L. Collins who you’ve probably heard of, Jim Collins, who did a fantastic series on stocks, it’s called the stock series and it’s available at jlcollinsnh.com and I’m sure you’ll link to that in the show notes.

34:10 Emily: I will. It’s a very famous, very well-known stock series.

34:13 Sean: Yeah. I’m probably about three quarters of the way through that, and it is quite dense, but you get so much information from that. It’s really amazing. That could be your single resource for investing for the rest of your life, and you’d probably be just fine. He actually has a couple of really nice, different types of investment portfolios from a single ETF through to, I think, a seven or nine ETF portfolio. And that’s actually one of the portfolios that I followed. I sort of took the four stock portfolio and I’ve based my investing on that. I didn’t come up with all of this myself, just so that everybody knows. As I think Einstein said, “we stand on the shoulders of giants.”

34:55 Emily: Just to add, J.L. Collins published a book based on that stock series called The Simple Path to Wealth in either 2018 or 2019. We’ll link to that as well in the show notes, if you prefer book over blog post form.

35:08 Sean: Yep, that’s a great one as well. And then a few other books that your listeners might be interested in is The Four Pillars of Investing, that I’m sure you’ve heard of, that’s William Bernstein, and A Random Walk Down Wall Street, which is also a really great book. Right now I’m actually reading for the first time in my life, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey, which isn’t necessarily about investing, but it’s a really great book about how to think about your life and how you’d like to be in your life. It definitely can be applied to your investment strategy.

35:45 Sean: Then if I can, I’d love to mention some podcasts that I listened to.

35:50 Emily: Of course, I am a great podcast lover!

35:54 Sean: Of course. I’m sure you’ve heard of, of a number of these. One of my favorites at the moment is Afford Anything with Paula Pant. She covers quite a broad range of investments and investment strategies, but what I like about it is it’s just very accessible. The way she talks about these things, she explains things really well. Every other week, she has a guest and on the alternate week, she answers questions from her audience. I always come away from every single podcast with some nugget of information that I can apply. Another one that I like is the Mad FIentist. That’s like scientists with an F instead of the S-C. It’s called the Financial Independence Podcast. I haven’t seen any new podcasts since October last year, but I think he’s still going.

36:44 Emily: He has an irregular publishing schedule, but what he does is everything he publishes is so high quality. It’s fantastic. Yes.

36:53 Sean: Yeah, no, he’s great. And I also love the graphic that he has for his podcast. It’s a crazy guy in a lab coat. Then the other one is The White Coat Investor with Dr. Jim Dahle. Now this is actually specifically for medical doctors, but I think a lot of what he talks about is applicable to everybody and also specifically to scientists. And then of course there’s Planet Money and The Indicator from NPR, which I think are just really great podcasts about the broader macro economic principles and really very interesting, accessible content that can help you learn about sort of how the financial world more broadly works.

37:32 Emily: I like those two. They’re not exactly well, The Indicator more so, but they’re not exactly like breaking news, but it sort of keeps me up to date on what’s going on the economy more broadly without being overwhelmed by daily content. I used to listen to Marketplace, for example, when I had more time, and I liked it, but it’s a lot every day to take all that information. Not all shakes out to be really that important in the long run, so I really like Planet Money and The Indicator for that.

37:59 Sean: And I like the way that they sometimes take a different look at the economy, or they’ll take something that you think has nothing to do with the economy and apply economic principles.

38:10 Emily: I think I cut you off a little bit, but I think you were going to mention ChooseFI, as well.

38:15 Sean: Yes. ChooseFI was the last one. So this is a new one to me. I haven’t really had much of a chance to listen to it. I’ve binged on a few episodes. I find that I have too many podcasts that I want to listen to, but I get to it when I can. They also really have some fantastic information and if folks don’t know this FI term refers to financial independence. Some people call it the FIRE movement, financial independence retire early, and this is something I’ve only started learning about it in the last few years, but it really resonates with me. Sort of harking back to what I said previously about thinking that I would just have a straight career path and retire when I was 65 or 70, this really gave me some insight into how I can change up that story, and I’m actually on the path and intending to retire hopefully within the next five years. So I’m hoping by the age of 55, which will give you a clue to how old I am. It gave me some confidence to look at my finances and say, you know, maybe I can do this.

39:21 Emily: Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned the FIRE movement, because as you were talking and telling your story, I could tell that you would find a home within that movement, if you hadn’t already, which it sounds like you have, as it’s become more popular. You were on this path before it really exploded. I also really love ChooseFI. We’re recording this in March 2020, and I just a couple of weeks ago, finished listening through their entire archive, which was like an eight month project as I was, of course, listening to new episodes as well. It was a big thing to tackle, but I think it was really worthwhile. Even though I don’t necessarily consider myself part of that movement, I got a ton out of all of that content. And actually what you said earlier reminded me of one of the hosts, Brad Barrett’s little mantras, which was, he basically says he doesn’t keep a budget either. He just says, “well, I just default to not spending money. I’m just going to save a hundred percent until I decide that something is worth spending on.” So that reminded me of sort of your philosophy as well.

40:16 Sean: Yeah, absolutely.

40:16 Emily: Since we’re swapping podcast recommendations, I will add one more, which is So Money with Farnoosh Torabi. She does three episodes a week. Her Friday episodes are Q&A’s ,and then she has guests on Mondays and Wednesdays. She has a little bit more of a women in money and women in entrepreneurship spin on the personal finance content, but still very strong in personal finance. So I really love that one, as well.

Final Words of Advice

40:38 Emily: I think we’re now down to our last question, which is what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD?

40:46 Sean: I think we’ve probably touched on all of these. I would say that the top four that I have is, remember the awesome power of compounding. Start early, save as much as you can. I know there’s, there’s plenty of calculators out there that you can play with online and see if you save even $20 a month, or $50 a month, when you you’re doing a PhD, and I know it sounds like a lot, but if you just save whatever you can, when you get to retirement age, you will have a good nest egg.

41:19 Emily: The way that I like to phrase that in my seminars is never discount whatever small amount of money it is that you can put towards investing when you’re early on in your twenties or your thirties. Never discount that because it will add up and compound being just a startling amount of money.

41:36 Sean: Yeah, absolutely. And I completely agree. The other one is educate yourself and do your homework. We all make mistakes. I certainly made my share, but I guess I’ll add to that, one of my other mantras, which is that the perfect can be the enemy of the good. There’s never going to be a perfect investment strategy. Things are going to change. You’re going to learn as you go, but just start, do something, start investing, even if it’s very small. There’s plenty of apps out there now, like Robinhood is a really great way to just start investing in small amounts of money. So yeah, start now. Don’t wait until you know everything.

42:14 Sean: Then the last one is really just live below your means. It’s kind of like if you’re trying to lose weight, you’ve got to take in fewer calories than you expend, and your body will lose the weight. It’s the same — if you spend less money than you bring in, you will save. It’ll be automatic.

42:32 Emily: Yeah. And I like to turn that on its head a little bit. I think this is probably a strategy you use, although we haven’t articulated it, is to pay yourself first. That old personal finance chestnut, but to live beneath your means, give yourself less means. Save first, give yourself less means to live on, if you are tempted to spend your checking account down to zero, as I am. What I have to do is get that money out of my checking account, out of my mind first, and then I know that I can safely spend the rest if I want to.

43:03 Sean: Right. And there’s so many ways to do that now. Even my bank will do automatic sweeps from my checking account into a savings account. I just set the amount and it does it automatically every month, so you don’t even see the money.

43:14 Emily: Absolutely. Well, Sean, I enjoyed this conversation so much and I think the listeners will have gotten a lot out of it, especially our discussion about investing, so thank you so much for joining me.

43:22 Sean: Oh, it’s such a pleasure. I really appreciate the invite and hopefully we’ll stay in touch and swap some more podcasts

Outtro

43:30 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

This PhD Government Scientist Is Pursuing Financial Independence: Part 2

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Gov Worker, which is the moniker used by a PhD scientist and FIRE blogger. FIRE stands for Financial Independence and Early Retirement. As a PhD, Gov Worker’s motivation for and path to FIRE are different than most and specific to his high degree of training, and he thinks other PhDs should consider FIRE as well. In this second half of the conversation, Gov Worker shares what his family is doing to achieve FIRE, how being a PhD has affected his FIRE journey, and his financial advice for early-career PhDs.

Further Listening: This PhD Government Scientist Is Pursuing Financial Independence: Part 1

Links mentioned in episode

financial independence government PhD

0:00 Introduction

1:18 Did you make any changes to your lifestyle and spending when you decided to pursue financial independence?

Dr. Gov Worker says that lately he has put more effort into learning and reading. He says that he and his wife are putting money into tax favored accounts like their 401(k) and health savings account. They are prepaying their mortgage.

He suggests one of the best ways to get started is by tracking your finances. He prefers using a manual spreadsheet because writing it down himself is important. He says that through this, they cut out spending that they didn’t really need. He shares that he and his daughters take piano lessons because this is meaningful to them. They are making sure to spend money on what they value. He says to look at what you’re spending and think about how much joy you get out of it. Try cutting it out and seeing if you really need it. If you do find joy from it, add it back in.

5:10 Can you comment about high savings rates in the FIRE community?

Gov Worker says that savings rates can be misleading. He briefly explains the different methods to calculate savings rate. His key message is that you need to save as much as you can and live on as little money as you can and still be happy with your life. He says that their savings rate is not very high because childcare and mortgage are a big portion of their income. He says he hasn’t calculated his savings rate or set a timeline because the numbers are not motivating for him.

9:45 How does being a PhD affect how you think about financial independence?

Gov Worker shares that he was 27 years old when he got his PhD. In the FIRE movement, many people have retired by age 30. But if you get a PhD by age 26 or 27, you are unlikely to retire in your 30s. This delayed start to making an income is common for PhDs. However, Dr. Gov Worker says that being a graduate student helped him learn how to live frugally. He said he was more comfortable keeping his lifestyle lean. When he did get a job, he was making above the median salary.

He goes on to share that PhDs have invested years in obtaining knowledge and becoming experts. There is a different emotional aspect to consider retiring early when you are a PhD compared to someone who works just for money.

13:54 Once you have financial independence, do you think you’ll still use your PhD knowledge?

Gov Worker says that his happiest times have been when he’s on a sabbatical. He likes collaborating with new people and supplying knowledge, without having administrative duties. He says he can see himself travelling to work with a colleague without having to worry about funding.

He shares that when there was a government shutdown for a month early this year, he discovered what he would like to do if he didn’t have to work. He also realized that he had enough money saved to be able to live off of for several years. He says that society minimizes the value of leisure time and he is interested in pursuing what brings him joy.

19:57 Do you think other PhDs should be thinking about FIRE?

Gov Worker thinks everyone should think about financial independence. He says there are many benefits to having a year of living expenses saved up. He says he’s seen people who can’t leave a toxic workplace because they need the paycheck. He says trying to get in better financial shape is for everyone. He says if you want to try to save 75% of your income for early retirement, you should try it. He was happier in his job after he committed to becoming financially independent. He says there are many mental and spiritual benefits to being on this path. He considers financial independence an alternative path to happiness.

22:45 What are the next steps for someone who wants to start on FIRE?

Gov Worker suggests looking into the FIRE community online and reading books about it. He advises continuing to live a graduate student lifestyle in your first job and save as much income as possible. He says to set up a 401(k) before your first paycheck to get the most of your employer match. He says you can consider having roommates and don’t buy into what your peers spend money on.

When you save money, you are buying yourself options or flexibility later on. Dr. Gov Worker says that in graduate school you are expected to be fully devoted to your field. He says if he could have anything in his world, he wishes he had more time to spend with people he loves and doing things he loves.

26:49 Where can people find you online?

Gov Worker says he’d love to interact with anyone interested in learning more about the FIRE movement. His blog is governmentworkerfi.com. He is active on Twitter and his handle is @govworkerfi.

27:20 Conclusion

This PhD Government Scientist Is Pursuing Financial Independence: Part 1

by

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Gov Worker, which is the moniker used by a PhD scientist and FIRE blogger. FIRE stands for Financial Independence and Early Retirement. As a PhD, Gov Worker’s motivation for and path to FIRE are different than most and specific to his high degree of training, and he thinks other PhDs should consider FIRE as well. In this first half of the conversation, Gov Worker fleshes out the FIRE movement for us, including why the current stereotypes are inaccurate and harmful, discusses what pushed him to pursue FIRE, and details what his family is doing to achieve FIRE.

Further Listening: This PhD Government Scientist Is Pursuing Financial Independence: Part 2

Links mentioned in episode

PhD financial independence 1

0:00 Introduction

1:25 Please Introduce Yourself

Dr. Gov Worker is the moniker for this PhD who is a government researcher. He is sharing his personal views, not the views of the government. He got his PhD in 2009. He lives in a “flyover state” and he’s happily married with three daughters. He started blogging a few months ago because he realized that his perspective is unique in the FIRE movement online. Most people pursuing FIRE and blogging about it are not PhDs and don’t have government jobs. He wanted to write content for people with these financial situations to help them optimize their decisions for pursuing FIRE.

4:22 What is FIRE?

FIRE stands for financial independence, retire early. Financial independence means you have passive income that exceeds your living expenses. Passive income is money that you don’t have to work for. In the FIRE movement, the rule of thumb is if you have 25 times your living expenses saved, you can generate enough returns on your investment to live comfortably by drawing off of 4%. The goal is that you save enough money that you don’t need to work to make money. Your work can be disassociated from an income. Early retirement is not necessarily the outcome of financial independence. Once you achieve financial independence, you have the option to leave your job.

Gov Worker emphasizes that the movement is more inclusive than it may seem. He says pursuing financial independence is for everyone and offers a lot of freedom.

10:10 What are some of the stereotypes associated with FIRE?

Gov Worker says the stereotype associated with FIRE is a single white male who learned to code and got a high paying job. He says the stereotypical person may be antisocial and not understand why people want to spend money on social activities. He says the stereotypical person is over-represented in the mainstream media and online in blogs.

Gov Worker wants to let listeners know that while early retirement sounds so extreme and it may turn off many people, the FIRE movement is more inclusive and has diversity in bloggers.

13:22 What led you to the FIRE movement?

Gov Worker shares that he saw a feature in Money Magazine about FIRE. He said he had always been interested in finance and read the Rich Dad, Poor Dad* books in high school. It never occurred to him that he could retire early until he saw the feature. Then he read Your Money or Your Life* and he says this book completely changed his life. Gov Worker says in academia, the mindset is to be the top of your field and it isn’t an option to have personal goals. He says he achieved career success, but it wasn’t fulfilling to him. Your Money or Your Life showed him that the job could be the source of income, not identity. He realized that being himself is worth more than his professional expertise.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

18:54 What are you doing on your path to financial independence?

Gov Worker says that he and his wife are very frugal. They always lived way below their means. They both ride their bikes to work, and they have a ten year mortgage they are prepaying. Every time they got a raise, they would save the raise or increase retirement accounts. He says that once they had children, a notable percentage of their salary goes to daycare.

21:35 How did you manage to keep your living expenses in check when you did see an increase in income?

Gov Worker explains that when he was in graduate school, his wife was working so they lived off of two incomes. They didn’t move after he graduated, so they didn’t have moving costs. They had a daughter two years before he graduated with his PhD, so this was the main financial concern. He says the increased income was like breathing room. Gov Worker says that he enjoyed his social group of graduate students who supported each other through tough times.

26:09 Conclusion