expert interview

How to Set Yourself Up for a Successful Career and Financial Life Post-PhD

December 7, 2020 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jennifer Polk, a career coach specializing in PhDs whose brand is From PhD to Life. Emily and Jen explore the damage that graduate school and academia often does to PhDs’ financial lives, in terms of both dollars and money mindset. They answer the question, “What can a graduate student or PhD do to mitigate academia’s financial damage?” from both a financial and career perspective, starting in grad school and extending several years post-PhD. Jen concludes the interview with an incredible insight that can only be gained with years of distance from the PhD.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Teaser

00:01 Jen: Woo boy, I think the two-word answer is compound interest. The more that you can put away, even very, very, very small amounts earlier on, make such a huge disproportionate difference over the long term.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 14, and today my guest is Dr. Jennifer Polk, a career coach specializing in PhDs, whose brand is From PhD to Life. Jen and I explore the damage that graduate school and academia often do to PhDs’ financial lives, in terms of both dollars and money mindset. We answer the question, “what can a graduate student or PhD do to mitigate academia’s financial damage?” from both a financial and career perspective, starting in graduate school and extending several years post-PhD. Jen concludes the interview with an incredible insight that can only be gained with years of distance from the PhD. If this episode, and that final insight in particular, get your wheels spinning about what you should be doing right now in your finances, there are several ways you can work with me in the upcoming months to level up your financial life.

01:29 Emily: The Personal Finance for PhDs Community is always open to new members. That’s where you can find my courses on financial goal setting, budgeting, investing, et cetera, plus monthly challenges to participate in a book club and lots of opportunities to ask me questions and engage in discussion with other like-minded graduate students and PhDs. You can find out more at pfforphds.community.

I’m facilitating my brand new half-day workshop, Chart Your Course to Financial Success, twice in the next couple of months. Spend four hours with me and a small group of peers, and you’ll come away with clarity on what your current financial goal should be and how to achieve it, plus super actionable ideas for increasing your income and decreasing your expenses. On December 12, 2020, I’m facilitating the workshop exclusively for funded graduate students. And on January 10th, 2021, it’s exclusively for PhDs. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/chart.

02:34 Emily: Finally, Mark your calendars for the next round of The Wealthy PhD. My two-month group-coaching program that provides guidance and, most importantly, accountability to help you achieve a significant financial goal and set you up for future financial success. Enrollment will open in early January, 2021. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD.

I’m so pleased to be able to offer you all these different avenues of support going into the new year. I hope you will identify one that fits you the best and sign up.

If you’re not quite sure about diving into working with me, please join my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Every Friday, I’ll send you an email detailing, a personal finance concept, an actionable strategy, or an inspirational story. You will receive an incredible amount of value, absolutely for free, through the list.

Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jen Polk.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:28 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jen Polk. You probably know her brand From PhD to Life. She is a career coach specializing in PhDs. So, she has a lot to say to us around this topic. And we’re actually going to be talking about money mindset today and specifically how it affects, you know, your finances, but also your career journey as you’re moving through and beyond the PhD. So, Jen, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast day. It’s wonderful to have you.

03:56 Jen: Yeah. Thank you, Emily. It’s my pleasure. I’m nervous. I’m excited.

04:01 Emily: It’ll be fun. So, please tell the audience just a little bit more about yourself.

04:05 Jen: Sure. So Jen, as Emily says, I work with PhDs figuring out what to do next in their careers and my business is From PhD to Life. That’s fromphdtolife.com. And I’m self-employed and I live in Toronto.

What Academic Culture Teaches Us About Money

04:22 Emily: What does academic culture–in your experience, and also what you’ve observed from your clients–what does academic culture teach us or tell us about money?

04:32 Jen: Yes. Yes. Big question. So, my own personal background is from the humanities, a history PhD. And I think that academia emphasizes, at least my corner of academia, to use that phrase, thinks of money as a bad thing, as kind of a necessary evil. And extremes to which we might take that view do exist out in the wild. There are people out there who will, they can’t possibly live this way every day of their lives, but they will literally say things to me that anybody who has more money is morally inferior or that it is unethical to have, you know, more money than one needs, et cetera. And I think that, yes, one can find that view in academia.

05:29 Emily: Is that defined as more money than they have? Is that the dividing line?

05:34 Jen: Probably, probably, probably. But yeah, I think that thinking about money, talking about money makes you somehow less of a scholar, less of an intellectual. Of course, as we know, the truth is that you can’t actually do scholarly work over the long-term if you are constantly worried about money. It’s difficult. But yeah, there’s definitely a sense that if you’re the person–and I think this is also tied in with aesthetics–if you show up in your humanities department wearing flashy suits and red lipstick and earrings you will be deemed less serious as a scholar, as an intellectual. I think that is related to money mindset as well. It’s really gross. It’s really gross. And yet, of course, you need money.

06:33 Emily: Yeah. I mean, you just said that, of course over the long term, you, you have to have money or else you’re going to have a constant, you know, really it’s a fog in your brain. When you’re constantly stressed about money, when you experience scarcity, and this has been studied, you know, through research, that you literally don’t cognitively function as well as you could, if you did not have that stress in your life. So it’s really actually perplexing to me that we do this. We–academia–does this to graduate students, especially, but also postdocs and also, you know, adjuncts and other faculty members to a degree. Why are we doing this to our youngest, most vulnerable developing scholars? I mean, I know you can’t answer that question, but it’s really perplexing to me that, you know, the system chooses to put this kind of stress on people, and then moralizes it, as you were just saying, says, “Oh, this has been official to you that you don’t have the distractions of money and flashiness and opulence and so forth in your life.” When really what it is is, “No you’re stressing us out, so we can’t even think properly.” And that’s, it’s horrifying, really.

07:37 Jen: Academia is perplexing. I think that’s a good short way of putting it. There’s a lot of work to be done to kind of recognize the truth of one’s situation and think about what you actually do value that is different from what academia implies that you should value.

Money Mindsets in Academia

07:57 Emily: Yeah, I will say from my, you know, my corner of academia and engineering, I did not get the message that money is evil or money is to be shunned. Certainly, we were still under, you know, some money stress depending on how well-funded you are. But definitely from the advisor or the faculty level, we weren’t getting that kind of message. And yet, there were still money mindsets that academia tells even to students in disciplines like that, like all your best time and energy has to be spent on research. Like, you know, you’re not allowed to do XYZ other things in your personal life or earning money on the side. Even if it is not explicitly disallowed, it is certainly frowned upon, because again, you should be spending all your best energy on your research. Things like that. And I think another really sort of damaging thing that happens that probably speaks a little bit more to your experience as a career coach, is that people become anchored at the graduate student salary that they are earning during those years. And so how do they judge what they’re worth in the marketplace after they exit academia when their skills can and should be valued much differently? But how do they, you know, transform their own understanding of the value that they bring? Maybe we can talk more about that.

09:14 Jen: And I also see from scientists that, of course it varies and everyone’s experience is unique, but a lot of worry about getting a quote unquote industry job is morally inferior. And I think part of that is that those jobs pay better than academia. And I think people not only would you make more money, but potentially, I mean, depending, you would have a better life and a better career. Because there’s just lots more variety out there. And there’s a lot more better places that one could be for a lot of people. But I do think that money is part of it as a signal of virtue. Does that make sense, Emily?

09:56 Emily: Yes, I definitely hear what you’re saying. I actually would add onto that. It’s possible that you can have more of an impact on the world in industry than you could in academia, potentially, depending on your field. So, there’s that too. Is your scholarship actually getting out there?

10:11 Jen: Yeah. More money, more impact.

Financially Damaging Money Mindsets

10:14 Emily: We’ve talked about how these money mindsets are not true, damaging in some ways. How is this financially damaging?

10:25 Jen: Whoo boy, the two-word answer is compound interest. The more that you can put away, even very, very, very small amounts, earlier on makes such a huge disproportionate difference over the long-term. There is such a potentially, I mean, again, it really varies, but there is a real opportunity cost to spending time in academia, as a graduate student who is not earning, you know, a whole lot of money. And then, you know, if you do post-docs and then in a lot of disciplines, even a tenure-track professorship, is not going to pay you really enough to live in a lot of cases. And that, you know, life isn’t about comparing oneself to others, but it does put you behind, to use that framing, other people with similar types of education in terms of your financial resources. And of course, if you have debt.

11:20 Emily: I couldn’t agree more. I mean, you know, sometimes I think about there’s been, I don’t know, I think I’ve seen studies from time to time on, “Oh, a PhD is worthwhile like salary-wise because yes, you take this income hit early on, but then later you could make, you know, much more than you would with just a bachelor’s or whatever.” But I really wonder, and I have not done the math on this. I really wonder, well, you’re disagreeing with even that assertion because I’m sure it is very individual, entirely. But even taking that as a given, if you then factor in the opportunity costs for compound interest of paying off your debt, starting to invest for the long-term for retirement, it becomes very dubious.

11:58 Jen: Well, that’s just it. That’s just it. Exactly what you say. Like, even if the salary itself is higher, you’re starting so much later than other people. Like Emily, you and I are both in North America, U.S./Canada context. PhDs take a while. You know, on average, somebody is 30, more than 30, almost 30, right, when they finish, with limited prior work experience. And yeah, it’s not just about annual salary. I’ve seen those studies where everybody’s like, “Look how much more money PhDs make” than people with other degrees. And yes, that is an average. And, you know, it varies a lot. A lot. Not only between disciplines, it does vary a lot between disciplines, but within disciplines, it varies a lot, over gender and race and immigration status, et cetera, subfield. And whether you’re in an academic career track or not, right?

12:54 Jen: There’s a lot of variety there. But yeah, it’s not just about your salary number. It’s not just about that. Yeah. It’s about all of the other things you said. You know, if you’re 10 years later entering the housing market, you might not enter the housing market, et cetera. Anyways, I don’t mean to bemoan and lament, but I do think that it is a message that if anybody listening is considering a PhD or in a PhD program earlier on and doubting whether they should continue, please take this seriously and know that I respect any and all decisions to not apply, not enroll and potentially, you know, if it’s right for you, to not continue in a PhD, because it really might not be the right thing for you for lots of reasons, including financial ones.

Working on the Post-PhD Money Mindset

13:40 Emily: Yes. I would actually love to expand on that. So, we were just saying, okay, to people who have not yet applied for graduate school or are early on in your graduate school journey, take seriously any doubts you may be having and explore other career possibilities for you. For my part, I’m a little less don’t do the PhD, but I’m more on like, why don’t you get some work experience and see what’s out there for you and be able to judge the PhD more, not from, okay, I just got out of undergrad and this is what I want to do, but judge it in a little bit of a more informed context? So let’s say someone is on that path and they’re firm about finishing the PhD, but they’re still early on or, you know, midway through. What can that person be doing to be, you know, both working on their mindset, setting themselves up for financial and career success, following the PhD, what can they do at that stage?

14:31 Jen: I think that, you know, and this comes from my own work, you know, day-to-day career coaching PhDs. I think it is never too early, never too early to think about your career because there is, and I don’t, I think this surprises people, there is so much work that you can do that you really ought to do, but you know, that you can do before you ever apply for a job. And part of that is about money and how much you really need and how much, you know, you 10 years from now is going to want. But I would really, the quicker that you can get into a job and the quicker that you can get into a job and a career that is one that you like, and you can really excel in and you know, it doesn’t sort of match up that you would excel in a career and you make money, but a little bit, right, the quicker you can make that happen for yourself after you graduate, the better.

15:28 Jen: So, do all of the work that you can when you’re still a student. And I just mean the self-assessment, the reflection, like what you were talking about, Emily. Identifying the right, you mentioned identifying the careers that you are interested in going into, right? Like do all of the work ahead of time to identify those, and then start building your network, and, and draw on your network to learn more about those career paths, to get really specific about the types of work that you could do. To have a kind of a draft resume in place for various different kinds of roles that you might apply for. Again, long before you ever get to the point of application. So that six months, four months before graduation, before you’re kind of ready to work, you can hit the ground running.

16:13 Emily: You mentioned like doing self-assessments and so forth. I did a lot of that stuff and it was provided by the career center at my university. I wouldn’t say I showed up at every event, but I was definitely like a regular frequent flyer at, you know, what they had going on. And I was able to do like, yeah, some of the various self-assessments and that was wonderful.

Career Exploration: Know Thyself

16:30 Emily: So, there’s resources that may be available to graduate students through their career centers. There’s your website of course, From PhD to life. Do you know, would you recommend any other resources outside of the university context, for people to help in this like career exploration phase?

16:46 Jen: Yeah. I think at this point, anything can be useful. And so, you know, I think it can sound really simple, simplistic but even just sitting down and making a list of the things that you actually truly value and that are really important to you, that there’s real power in that. Taking a few minutes and just doing a brain dump, like, okay, what do I actually value in having, and write it down. Make a visual of it and make a graphic that you stick on your computer desktop. I mean, whatever it is so that you can keep reminding yourself when academic culture is swirling around you, which can be, I’m exaggerating, but it can be a bit of a totalizing culture and impose values and priorities on you that, you know, can kind of make things messy, just to remind yourself of what you truly value.

17:42 Jen: When I say anything can be useful at this point, I mean, sure do the Myers-Briggs. Scientifically dubious, doesn’t matter, because point is to give you new language, like literal words, and new perspectives, different perspectives on the types of skills and strengths that you have. So, any kind of like skill assessment, strengths test, value survey, anything like that, you can find online. Any of those that can be really kind of interesting to get you thinking about yourself in a different way. And then make your own lists. Some people like spreadsheets. And take advantage of any and all assessments that, yeah, you get from your career center on campus if that’s available to you. This process, I’m talking about it like it’s a mess, and that’s because it is a mess. So, it’s fine. And the other thing I would say is that this is not a process of identifying your one true right job.

Do Not Get Stuck on the “Dream Job”

18:42 Jen: Your dream job. No, no. Wipe that from your mind. That’s not a thing. A lot of jobs out there are broadly similar. And you, whatever your PhD discipline, whatever your background, you can do a lot of them. So they’re broadly similar and you can do a lot of them. And so what becomes important is not that particular job title, but more where in the world do you want to live? What kind of lifestyle do you want to have? What the vibe of the office that you want to be in? What kinds of like actual work do you want to do every day? Who do you want to hang out with? What kind of impact do you want to make? So all of those kinds of questions that, like job title is not even that relevant. At a certain point, you’re going to try and identify some so that you can find jobs to apply to. And so that your network can help you out by making suggestions. But yeah, it’s a mess. Embrace the mess and know yourself.

19:37 Emily: At that stage. Because you can be really open to a lot of different things, like you were saying. We’re not at all trying to like narrow things down, right? It’s about sort of broadening. So, I’m also thinking about, for an early-stage graduate student, mid-stage graduate student, how to mitigate this financial damage that we were talking about. And so very briefly, I just want to say, as you said earlier, compound interest. So if you are at a stage in your finances, when you’re able to save, get an emergency fund together, but after that start tackling your debt, start investing if that’s where you are. And I of course talk about that many, many other interviews and so forth. So people can find a lot more resources. But as you said earlier, the early you get started, small amounts of money, perfectly fine. It’s still going to make a difference.

The Value of Outside Work Experiences

20:18 Emily: So don’t dismiss just because you’re a graduate student, “Oh, I can only save 50 bucks a month or I can only save a hundred bucks a month.” That’s amazing. That would be a lot of money if you actually got that invested. So don’t dismiss that while you’re, you know, doing all this other career stuff. I also want to bring up outside work experience. You know, you mentioned earlier, like, you know, think about your network and so forth, and you can do that without working. You can expand your network. But you know, for some PhD students, it is possible to do internships or to have some kind of side hustle, that’s going to ultimately help you in your later job. Can you speak to that a little bit?

20:53 Jen: Yeah. And I take your point, Emily, that you said for some they can have, because yes, acknowledgement that, you know, it does depend on visa status and the contract, et cetera, et cetera. But, so in response to a Tweet I sent earlier this morning, somebody, I think she’s a humanities PhD student, said that in her program, when she was doing her PhD, she was reflecting on one of her colleagues had this like prestigious grant. So she didn’t have to have a job on campus to pay the rent. Because she had the prestigious grant. And the person who wrote the tweet was saying, you know, I didn’t have that, but instead I worked outside of academia and that, you know, the implication here being that, that gave me the same amount of money. And the vibe she got, not only the vibe, the actual literal the message she got from her professors in the department was that the fellowship was of greater value.

21:46 Jen: Even though from our perspective now, as people out in the world, you know, working jobs, we know that actually in some ways having actual work experience is more valuable. And that is really, really, really important and can’t be undervalued. This is not, you know, to ask students to do more and more and more work. But just to say that when you are making decisions about what to do in your kind of free time, quote unquote, you know, where you have a choice about whether to do this and this and this, just to pause and say, “Well, the, the thing that I think that I should do is adjunct one more course.” Well, hold up, just think to yourself, what is the value of adjuncting a course versus stepping up your side hustle or getting a job outside campus, even just in retail? I mean, it’s not obvious from where I sit that adjuncting a course is the right move. Whereas that can be like just a totally obvious thing according to academics, but no no no. I mean, it really depends. So, I would, you know, use your critical thinking skills and question the things that seem obvious to you.

Commercial

23:00 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. You are invited to my brand new half-day workshop, Chart Your Course to Financial Success. The central question this workshop will help you answer is what should my singular financial goal be right now and how should I best pursue it? I’ll teach you my eight-step financial framework that explains when you should save versus pay off debt versus invest. And we’ll explore many, many strategies to increase your income and or decrease your expenses. I will facilitate the workshop exclusively for funded graduate students on Saturday, December 12th, 2020, and exclusively for PhDs on Sunday, January 10th, 2021. You can learn more and sign up at pfforphds.com/chart. That’s P F F O R P H D s.com/ C H A R T. The deadline to register for the December 12th workshop is Wednesday, December 9th. So, don’t delay. There are discounts currently available for both workshops and registration is limited. Now, back to the interview.

Pay Attention to Your Base Salary

24:10 Emily: Let’s now talk about someone who’s finishing up about to finish up the PhD, and maybe about to finish up a postdoc, if that’s the choice that you made following the PhD. And you want to get a real job and it’s not going to be in academia. So, what can a person who’s reached that stage do, again, to mitigate the damage that the mindsets and the financial damage that academia has caused?

24:31 Jen: It’s really tricky this because you know, some people ask, how do I know when to take this job now, or to take the risk of turning it down in hopes that I would get a higher offer six months from now? So, you know, I think it’s not obvious what the answer is and it will highly depend on the individual person. But one thing for sure to think about is, when you’re ready to accept and negotiate a job offer, right? Accept and negotiate, right?

25:02 Jen: Both of those together. That your base salary is a really important consideration. It’s not the only thing up for negotiation. It’s not the only thing to discuss. But that a one time payout, like a bonus, like a signing bonus of five grand, for example, that seems great in the moment and sure you could invest that, but over the long-term, it’s probably better for you to have like $500 extra on your base salary, something like that. I mean, I can’t do the math immediately, but I think tending to base salary is really important.

Do Not Underestimate the Value of Your Network

25:37 Emily: To pick up where we left off with the career exploration, exploration of yourself. Now this person is ready to narrow things down and apply for some jobs. So, what do they do at that stage?

25:53 Jen: Yeah. So, I think don’t underestimate the value of your network. And before people are like, “Hold up, Jen, I don’t have a network.” No, you have a network, you have a network and you know people, and the people that know you also know other people. And, it can depend, but your academic network, don’t discount them. Even if you’re applying for non-academic jobs. Again, it can depend. But, I mean, I have a client now who is a research associate, a post-doc, and he was nervous about talking to his PI about the fact that he’s, you know, he’s on the job market. And he had the conversation and the PI was very supportive. And then the PI sent a few emails. My client got some interviews literally the next week and, you know, might have a job offer like within like a month. And so don’t discount the value that your network can come through for you.

26:54 Jen: And I know in my work with PhDs, with my own clients, but also all of the research that I’ve done over the years that you talking with people, and that’s all I mean when I say you should network, is you should interact actively with people in your field, with other professionals, quote, unquote. Just actively interact with people, that pays off enormously. And if you don’t do that, it’s going to be so, so, so, so, so much harder. At this stage, unless you have really particular technical skills, and I would wager that a huge number of PhDs don’t–and that’s not a criticism, that’s not a criticism–but if you don’t have these like really narrow, really specific, really rare technical skills, and you’re not at the right place at the right time, then you really have to use your network.

People Can Connect Us to New Opportunities

27:48 Jen: And that’s all of us. Not only so that potentially you could get referred to a job, you could be an inside hire as it were. Right? That’s great. But it’s not only that. It’s so that you can learn what’s out there. It’s so that you have people on your team to send you job ads. I applied for a job in September, and I wouldn’t have seen it except that somebody that I know and have known over the years. I’m not frequently in contact with her, but she kind of knows about me in general. She sent me the job ad as soon as she saw it posted. And I was like, “Oh my goodness.” And what happened is I had a number of other people send me the job ad subsequently.

28:26 Emily: Your branding is so clear that many people could identify what is a perfect job for you.

28:31 Jen: Exactly, exactly. Right. Exactly.

28:34 Emily: I actually have another story to add to that pile, which is how my husband got his job in industry. And so this is more about the value of networking with people from your own program who have moved on in the years prior to you. Because it’s not just the faculty who have networks. It’s anybody who’s exited academia. Even an undergraduate that you worked with who is now in the workforce can be a contact in your network. So my husband, some person who had graduated from his program a couple years earlier, sent a job listing for his, you know, at the time current company to my husband’s PI and said, I know that your lab lines up very well with what we do here. Could you show this to your students who are graduating? And that happened, and my husband got that position. So that was like just, yep. Clearly networking. Because of course it was on the strength of his PIs reputation. This individual didn’t know my husband in particular. But yeah, that’s exactly how it happened and it was quick and easy.

29:31 Jen: Yeah. And that’s what you want. Right? I mean, life doesn’t always work out that way, but quick and easy means that there was years of work that went into that ahead of time, but it doesn’t have to difficult. It’s all, I mean, it’s just about making friends, having good conversations and doing work that you find interesting and that you find engaging. And if you do that over the years and you are in conversation with people about that, hopefully kind of stars align at a certain point and it seems easy.

Always Try to Negotiate Your Starting Offer

30:03 Emily: Yes, exactly great point. So, okay. Our candidate has, you know, done the job searching, done the self-reflection, applying for jobs. You mentioned a moment ago, negotiating base salary as incredibly important. And so this to me also is one, probably your biggest opportunity, to mitigate financial damage that’s occurred during your PhD, is to get that first starting offer as high as you reasonably can within the scope of the field and your skills and so forth. But to negotiate that offer, because I think some PhDs might be kind of bowled over by, “Oh my goodness. You’re offering me how much money?” And again, they’re anchored to their graduate student salary. And so, might just feel so grateful, yeah, and I get that, that they don’t negotiate. But really it’s expected. It’s absolutely expected in industry and it’s probably going to be pretty well-received.

30:54 Emily: Even if the answer is, no, this is a union job and you can’t negotiate, that might be the answer, but you’re not going to be faulted for trying. Right? So, definitely at least attempt that negotiation, because as you said, having a slightly higher base salary, that’s going to affect for sure, whatever salaries you have, as long as you stay at that company. And may even beyond that, if you know, employers shouldn’t, but are allowed to, at least in the U.S. In many cases ask about prior salaries, it depends on what state you’re in. So it’s possible that it could even affect once you leave that, you know, that particular employer, could still follow you. So getting that starting salary as high as you can is a great idea. Even if it seems really scary and daunting to you in terms of the number.

31:38 Jen: Yeah. And I would recognize, you know, everything in life is a risk. Sure. Of course. But once an employer has made an offer to you, they are imagining you solving their problem and hanging out with them every day. And that gives you some power here. As I say, there’s a risk, but I would, you know, own the power that you have in that situation to make a strong case for yourself. You have to make the case. But you want to be successful in that position long-term to help the team grow, et cetera, et cetera. And so, you’re going to show up for them and they should show up for you in terms of base salary.

Good Employers Make their Employees Feel Valued

32:22 Emily: Yeah. And I think it actually goes back to what we talked about earlier that academia, for whatever reason, decides to put this financial stress on its trainees. Your employer probably does not want you to be under that kind of financial stress. They want to pay you enough to reflect the value, to make you feel like you’re valued. That you’re not going jump ship and go to someone else. That you’re going to be able to live in the city that they’re in, you know, comfortably without having to move an hour away for your commute. All of that stuff affects your performance at work. And so it can all come into play when you think about what is the salary that I want to have to perform well in this position? That’s really your opportunity to express that.

32:57 Jen: To a certain extent, there’s some recalibration that might need to happen for folks coming out of academia, where things can be such a struggle, and you can have this impression that any employer is kind of out to get you, out to screw you over. Depending on the experience that you have in academia and the experience of your colleagues and friends around you. But yeah, as Emily said, I mean, any employer that you would really want to work for, they recognize the crucial importance of their labor, of the people doing the work. I mean, this is so, so, so important, and employers, good employers, employers that you want to work for. And there’s lots of them out there. They’re not going to pay you outrageous sums of money potentially, but they want you to be able to have the lifestyle and do the work and be happy and get what you need to be on their team, solving their problems. So, I would assume, assume that they want to pay you equitably right. Fairly and adequately. And, you know, maybe a little more than that. I would assume that, and go forth.

34:04 Jen: Yeah, I am glad you put in the caveat of a good employer, because certainly there are ones that–maybe not employers broadly, but maybe a manager, someone who views this more as a competitive thing, like I’m going to pay you less because I have that better from my bottom line. But it really should be viewed more so as, “We want you to do a great job, and we’re going to compensate you well to do that great job.” And certainly if you get into a salary negotiation process with an employer and you’re getting a vibe that they don’t really seem like they want to support you, then that’s your red flag. And that’s the time to go back to the exploring you’ve done and go back and look at other, you know, positions that you might have, and so forth.

Avoiding Lifestyle Inflation and Unhealthy Mindsets

34:40 Emily: Okay. So, let’s then talk about, you’ve got the job, maybe you’re a few months, a few years into that point. What should you still be doing to again be mitigating the mindset and the literal financial damage that your time in academia has wrought?

34:55 Jen: Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, I think there’s lots of things that one could say here, but something that comes to mind for me is a phrase that I’m sure, you know, people that grew up in this part of the world have heard, penny-wise and pound-foolish, right? And to a certain extent, you know, when you’re in academia, there are a lot of things that you don’t pay outright for, of course you do pay for them through tuition, et cetera. But it doesn’t occur to you. So there might be things that you yourself would want to invest in, to use that term. And I use that term kind of in a broader sense that will help you over the long term. Ideally, your employer pays for professional development and pays for coaching and whatever, pays therapy, right? Ideally you have benefits around that. But it could be, you know, if you don’t, or if you’re unemployed at the moment, that it can be really valuable to invest in those kinds of services for a relatively short amount of time, because the investment as a metaphor is the right one, because there will be a longer-term payoff.

36:01 Jen: And if you can get your career started kind of on a good footing, great. Right? It’s just so helpful. It’s so helpful. And I would sit down with a money advisor, financial advisor, or whatever the term is, you know, somebody who can kind of tell you things, even if it’s your mom, right? Because if you can get into the lifestyle kind of early on of making good decisions around money, but also, you know, making decisions about you suddenly have more money, hopefully maybe you can set money aside for vacation. You know, that’s a good thing too, et cetera.

36:43 Emily: I totally agree. And actually, this is a phase that I’ve come to now that I’m, you know, a few years post-PhD and into my career, my business with Personal Finance for PhDs, is this idea of investing in myself was something I was very reluctant to do, right? Because I was being penny wise, pound foolish right when I finished my PhD because I wasn’t making that much money yet. So how can I, you know, decide to invest? But actually, you were one of the first people who I worked with, you know, near the start of my business. And it was a was a small investment, but I joined one of your programs. And it, I mean, I still talk about it and laud it, this was Self-Employed PhD, and how we originally met and what an impact that made on me.

37:23 Emily: And I’ve since then been much more willing to invest in training and professional development for myself. So I would definitely, I mean, obviously my field as an entrepreneur is, is different from what other people were doing, but just be thinking about what are the professionals, if it’s again, not provided, as you said, through your workplace, which sometimes it is, what professionals might I work with that can help further my career further, my financial development? Of course you are one of those professionals. If the question is more on the career front with PhD to Life. I am one of those professionals if the question is more on the, how do I handle my finances? How do I handle my budget? You know, what should I be saving for? What should my life look like? If those are the kinds of questions, then of course, feel free to work with me, but there are also many other types of professionals, depending on the exact needs that you have.

Invest in Your Future

38:06 Emily: And as you said, it is an investment. It takes money to work with a professional in the way that we’re talking about. But ideally, the dividends are going to start coming very, very soon after you begin that relationship. Another sort of financial tip, I’ll definitely say, once you’re into that, you know, your career and you’re making a much better salary than you were as a post-doc or as a graduate student. This is now the time to not super increase your lifestyle. Yes. Hopefully, you will be spending more so that you don’t feel stressed. But to some extent you should keep your lifestyle level on a little bit lower than maybe where you see your new colleagues at because you do need to make up for lost time a little bit, and doing things like starting to invest inside your company’s 401(k), even maxing out that 401(k). So to be going into those tax advantaged, designed for retirement types of accounts to a great degree, I mean, just put money away from your salary. You never see it coming in your paycheck. It’s all payroll deductions. That’s the best way to do things. So it might seem like a large number. Right now, a 401(k) in the U.S. would be $19,500 per year to max that out as an employee.

39:17 Emily: Why not? Why not? If your salary has jumped up by much more than that in this transition, why not go for that? Why not have that be your new anchor in your mind? So think about maxing out that 401(k), or at least contributing a good amount to it. Think about making serious, serious progress on your student loans if you have decided that you’re not going to go for an income-driven repayment plan and forgiveness plan. So all kinds of other questions, but this is the time when you get into that job where you can really, like you were saying earlier, you know, hitting the ground running like you’ve done these years of preparation for your career so that by the time it’s finally time to apply for a job, you’re ready and raring to go. It’s kind of the same thing financially. You’ve been keeping your lifestyle low for such a long time. Now you have the salary, don’t do too much lifestyle inflation and just get saving, get investing, get on that debt.

Think of Your Future Self

40:02 Emily: When we were preparing for this interview, you told me you had a message for people earlier on in their PhD journeys than you are currently. So what is that message?

40:12 Jen: Oh boy, your future self is going to care so much more about money than you do now. You know, if you’re in a PhD program, like I started my PhD at 24, like I was like, “Whoa, $15,000 a year.” This was a while ago now. Great. I can’t believe, you know, we hear this all the time. I can’t believe I’m going to get paid to do a PhD. That’s amazing. Okay. Awesome. Congratulations. But just know that your future self is going to care so much more. I mean, I happily, relatively happily, lived with a roommate for years and years and years, and I now live by myself and I pay a lot more money for that privilege, but I just, I just don’t, I don’t want to go back. Right? And so, of course I need a lot more money than I used to. And that, yeah, your future self is going to thank you i you care about it a little bit more than you might be inclined to when you’re, say, 24.

41:15 Emily: Yeah. And by doing the things that we’ve been talking about, like negotiating, like starting to invest early, even if none of your peers are doing it. Like having a side hustle maybe to bring in a little bit of extra money. I’ll say from my perspective too, like now that I, you know, my husband and I got married during graduate school, so we really, you know, we didn’t need any more money after our marriage than we did before. We were both in graduate school. But after we finished our PhDs, we had a couple babies and you know what, once you get on that train, things get very expensive very quickly. And so that’s not at all to say that you can’t have children earlier. That’s just my personal journey, but I certainly feel like we need to command a much higher salary at this stage in our lives and our family formation than we did years ago when we were, you know, DINKS [dual income, no kids]. So there’s that too, if you want that in your future. Yeah. It’s something to start thinking about now.

42:08 Jen: One of my recent clients, she lives in an expensive part of the U.S. Right? Granted but the lifestyle that she has now, a few years out of her PhD with a couple of kids and, you know, a mortgage and all of the above, she really can’t accept a job that pays her less than $150,000 a year. And right. It’s just the reality. And that might seem outrageous to folks listening now who are living on, $30k or less, maybe much less. Like, just keep that in mind. It’s not, you know, I’m not saying that my client, she’s not greedy. It’s just the reality of the situation. Life can get expensive really quickly.

42:45 Emily: Yeah. And I’ll link actually in the show notes, a wonderful interview I did with Dr. Scott Kennedy a year or two ago where he talks about his own realizations as he formed his family during graduate school, that he was going to have to change his career plans, to go into a different field that was going to pay more because he could not afford, now that he had a family, to stay on the track that he had been on. Even though that was sort of intellectually, maybe his preference from earlier on. So these kinds of things have, you know, your life has real impacts on how much money you need to make. And that’s something to start, you know, being realistic about as early on as possible.

How Can People Work With You, Jen?

43:24 Emily: All right, Jen, how can people work with you, should they, you know, if they’ve been intrigued by this interview?

43:32 Jen: For sure. Yeah. Thanks for asking. So, start on my website fromphdtolife.com. I work with individuals. I do small group things, coaching, open discussions. Those are a lot of fun. Shout out to small group things. I think those are awesome. I do drop-ins for Self-Employed PhDs. So, if that applies to you at all, check those out. And then I also work with institutions. So I’m happy to come to your campus, virtually please, I do a presentation or a workshop. I love workshops. So there’s different options.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

44:07 Emily: Wonderful. And final question that I ask of all my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

44:15 Jen: So this is a totally “do as I did, and also, as I say,” usually those two things do not go together. But one thing that I have been doing for 20 years, gosh, wow, something like that, is I track every penny. There are no pennies in Canada anymore. I track everything that I spend. So I know how much my life costs. Like I literally know how much my life costs in different categories. And years ago, I used to do this on a, it wasn’t even Excel. I use the WordPerfect version of excel, just a spreadsheet. But now there are lots of programs out there. But I think, you know, tracking what you spend is really, really important. It’s different from budgeting. You can do both together. But the example I like to give is like, I think this is really common for grad students.

45:11 Jen: Like you might spend like a lot of money, like on clothing kind of once or twice a year, not on a monthly basis. So some of the kind of standard ways of thinking about budgeting is sort of like a monthly thing. You go to your big annual conference one month and suddenly you’ve spent $2,000 more than, right? So anyways, but track, and then you can see the trends over time. And by seeing the amount of money that you’re spending in different categories, literally being able to like, see it on a spreadsheet, you can make decisions, better decisions about, you know, how much, how do you really want to spend $200 on takeout every month? Maybe. Yes. Maybe no. Right. But it makes it very clear.

45:55 Emily: I totally totally agree. Foundational personal finance advice. Step number one, track your spending. Track your expenses. Well Jen, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your expertise.

46:07 Jen: Thank you.

Outtro

46:09 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Handle Your Student Loans During Grad School and Following

November 30, 2020 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Meagan Landress, a Certified Student Loan Professional who works with Student Loan Planner, about how a grad student or PhD should best handle their federal student loans. Meagan outlines the financial profiles of someone who should use an income-driven repayment plan to pursue forgiveness, including Public Service Loan Forgiveness, vs. someone who should consider refinancing. She answers the questions: Should a graduate student pay down their student loans while they are in deferment? How should a graduate student who needs to take out debt decide between a student loan and consumer debt? Meagan also explains how marriage affects student loan repayment under each of the income-driven repayment programs. Don’t miss this episode jam-packed with actionable information!

Link Mentioned in this Episode

Trailer

00:00 Meagan: We are taking a non-traditional approach to debt and so I kind of backed that up with, make sure you know, that federal student loans are just not a regular debt. That’s one. That’s the biggest thing we need to remember.

Introduction

01:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education and personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 13 and today my guest is Meagan Landress, a certified student loan professional who works with Student Loan Planner. We’re discussing how a grad student or PhD should best handle their federal student loans. Meagan outlines the financial profiles of someone who should use an income-driven repayment plan to pursue forgiveness, including public service loan forgiveness, versus someone who should consider refinancing. She answers the questions: should a graduate student pay down their student loans while they’re in deferment? How should a graduate student who needs to take out debt decide between a student loan and consumer debt? Megan also explains how marriage affects student loan repayment under each of the income driven repayment programs. If you have federal student loans, and there is any question in your mind as to how you should handle them, you should absolutely listen through this entire episode. When you have a really high stakes student loan decision to make, such as which forgiveness program is right for you and your family, or whether to pursue PSLF versus refinancing, I highly recommend working with a certified student loan professional or a certified financial planner. Student Loan Planner can refer you to one of their partners who is a qualified professional.

01:39 Emily: On the other hand, if you’re looking for assistance with determining what your current financial goal should be, evaluating your budget, or figuring out what your financial life should look like in your next position, please consider working with me. I also serve as a financial coach and I specialize in funded graduate students and PhDs. You can sign up for a free 15 minute introductory call with me at pfforphds.com/coaching to see if one-on-one coaching with me would be a good fit for you. Alternatively, if a group coaching and accountability program is attractive to you, The Wealthy PhD might be your best option. I’m enrolling for the next round of The Wealthy PhD in January, 2021 and you can go to pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD to learn more and join the wait list. Whatever the financial decision you’re facing, it can really help to get an outside perspective. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Meagan Landress.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:36 Emily: I am so pleased that Meagan Landress, a certified student loan professional, has agreed to join me on the podcast today to give an interview all about federal student loans for graduate students and PhDs. Meagan has her own coaching business around student loans, and she also works with Student Loan Planner, which is a really well-known brand in the space that I respect a lot. So I was really pleased to be connected with Meagan and so pleased that she accepted the invitation to be on the podcast. So Meagan, will you please introduce yourself to my audience a little bit further?

03:05 Meagan: Definitely. I’m Meagan Landress, born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia. And yes, I have my own financial coaching practice where I work with folks on the basics of financial planning. And Student Loan Planner, I consult for specifically on student loans, helping people navigate that big elephant on their chest, I would say. I’m excited for this conversation today.

03:29 Emily: Yeah. When I approached Student Loan Planner, I said, I would love to interview someone. I need someone who’s going to be able to speak to PhDs and the specifics of their situation. They said, Meagan’s going to be the perfect fit, so I’m really excited for this conversation.

Federal Student Loan Forgiveness Programs vs. Refinancing

03:42 Emily: Let’s jump right into it. I’m imagining a person who, whether they’re in graduate school, whether they’re maybe out of graduate school, they need to know whether or not they should be pursuing a forgiveness program at the federal level. One, maybe you could just remind us briefly of a few of those acronyms that are involved with the federal level forgiveness programs, and then let us know who is the type of person, what is the financial profile of a person who really should be looking carefully at pursuing one of those forgiveness programs?

04:13 Meagan: Yeah, so I think the most maybe well-known is public service loan forgiveness. That is, if you’re dedicating your career to a public service opportunity, so government, nonprofit, 501(c)(3) work. But also each of the income driven plans, there are four, each of those income driven plans have a forgiveness component and it’s really more so like their maximum repayment period. The folks that should be pursuing or entertaining forgiveness, there is a rule of thumb on balance.

Meagan: For the longer term income driven plans, if your balance is much greater than your annual income, we use 1.5 times your annual income, then you should probably be entertaining that longer term forgiveness route on the income driven plans. It’s not public service work. It’s not career-driven anything like that. You just have to be making payments on that plan for either 20 or 25 years. PSLF, I think is a little more straightforward. If you find yourself in a public service position and you can foresee your career continuing to go that route. I see this a lot in education, you know, public universities, and so that’s where we want to be entertaining, maybe public service loan forgiveness, which is 120 qualifying payments on an income driven plan. And then you reap the benefit of forgiveness. So it’s much shorter. Those would be some maybe identifying factors there.

05:42 Emily: So just to put a real fine point on this, when we’re talking about a debt to income ratio, is that the income that the person has post all education or during the course of their education

05:54 Meagan: Post-education. So I would say the first couple of years of their career.

05:59 Emily: Okay. So someone coming out of their PhD, first post-PhD job within those first couple of years, if they see that their debt is more than one and a half times, their post PhD income, that’s when they should be looking pretty hard at enrolling one of these forgiveness plans and potentially seeing it through to completion. Is there any difference in that rule of thumb, around whether if the program is PSLF, which only would take 10 years, versus one of the ones that would take 20 to 25 years,

06:27 Meagan: There’s a little bit of, because that ratio is not quite right since it’s such a shorter period of time. And so folks who have about the same, or maybe even a little less than their income, could still benefit from public service loan forgiveness. We just have to do the math on it because the payments are going to be based off of your income. And we need to project that out to see, would you just pay it off in 10 years or would you reap the benefit of some kind of forgiveness? The debt to income ratio isn’t so relevant with PSLF, but it could be maybe a rule of thumb to start with, and then you have to go and do some math.

07:07 Emily: Yeah. I’m fully anticipating there being a lot of answers like, well, this is the starting position, but really we have to fine tune it through doing some more math. So I fully anticipate a lot of those answers during this interview and that’s perfectly fine. I just want to get people a starting point, because when you’re sitting, prior to getting out of graduate school and you’re wondering whether or not you should be, your loans are probably in deferment, but you’re wondering whether or not you should pursue a forgiveness plan afterwards. It’s just helpful to see whether or not you have to go further into the details of it or not. There’s another option for repaying your student loans. Well, there’s a few options. You can do the standard repayment program for the federal government. That’s going to take 10 years, and it’s just based on your debt amounts, not based on your income at all, the repayment amounts. Or you have the opportunity to potentially refinance your loans. And there’s been a lot of advertising around student loan refinancing in the last 10 years. Very, very low rates are being offered. What is the financial profile of person who should be considering refinancing rather than potentially pursuing PSLF or another forgiveness program?

08:13 Meagan: Yeah. Refinancing is a big, you’ll see these commercials on TV all the time now. But when it’s right to consider refinancing, I think that’s when your balance is lower than your annual income, and you feel comfortable walking away from the federal system. And what I mean by that is the federal system has a lot of flexibilities that private loans just don’t offer. You won’t have very generous for forebarance availability. You won’t have access to income driven plans. There’s no forgiveness opportunity with private loans. And so if you feel comfortable with your financial situation and you can commit to the term for refinancing and you weren’t a good candidate for forgiveness in any way, then that’s when I think it’s appropriate to pull the trigger on refinancing.

09:00 Emily: Yeah. And I think what concurs with that is that you have to have a fairly low debt to income ratio to even qualify for the really good refinancing options. Like it pretty much has to be below about one-to-one anyway, to do that, which for people in my audience, PhDs, oftentimes refinancing is not going to be an option during graduate school because the income is just so low. However, if your post PhD income is going to jump up quite a lot, then refinancing might make sense once you get to that point. You may wish you could have refinanced earlier, but you probably wouldn’t qualify if your debt is maybe a few multiples of your graduate student income, but less than one year’s worth of your post PhD income. Thanks for that clarification.

09:40 Emily: I know there’s a lot of anxiety going on right now about PSLF. There was a report, I think it was in 2018 or something about how 90-whatever percent of people were being rejected by PSLF. Can you shed some light on this? Should people be concerned about the health and the future of PSLF?

09:54 Meagan: I wish I could take this article down. This one, everyone references, I feel like, when we’re talking about PSLF, but it’s funny when you go back to that article and you break apart the math in that article, you’ll see that about 70% to 80% of that 99% number of denials was due to one of two reasons. One was because people applied before reaching 120 payments. I think there’s a lot of reasonings behind that. Some people truly may have just been off a couple of payments and got denied. It didn’t mean that they’re denied for the whole program, they just have to make a couple more payments to get to 120. But I think the other big reason was there was a buzz about PSLF in 2017 and 2018. That was the first year we could have applied for the forgiveness. People in public service got excited about it and they were like, “Oh, I’ll just apply to see what happens,” and they hadn’t done the due diligence to check all the boxes and they definitely didn’t do the time. And so that’s my unofficial hypothesis on what happened there.

Meagan: Then there are some other things too, like there are some specific things you need to make sure you’re checking the box for, like having the correct type of loans, only direct loans qualify for forgiveness and being on an income driven plan. Those are two that were another percentage of why people got denied. They had either the wrong type of loans or weren’t on the right repayment plan. That article, while although looked horrifying, if that was the route you were going, it was very misleading. And I wish they would have pulled out some of that bad data. But PSLF is a great program to pursue. We just have to make sure we’re doing the due diligence and keeping a pulse on our payments over time to not have any surprises, that’s really the big important part with PSLF.

11:49 Emily: I guess I’ve also heard sort of anecdotally that I believe you have to do a recertification every year to make sure that your employer is still the type of employer where you would qualify for this program and that maybe you need to stay on top of your employer and your lender to make sure that all that paperwork is going through. Sort of you as the borrower need to take on a little bit more responsibility than you might like to, just to make sure that all the I’s are being dotted and the T’s are being crossed and everything.

12:16 Meagan: Yes. There’s what’s called the employment certification form that we recommend submitting at least once a year, even if you haven’t switched employers. What that form does is yes, it does verify that the employer still has that tax-exempt status. It also verifies and certifies that you still work there full-time. That’s one of the other requirements, working full-time for that entity. Once they get that form, then they update your payments since the last time you submitted it. And what’s nice too, they just updated their portal to where it shows your PSLF payment track, which is new because he used to have to wait for that confirmation email after submitting the ECF form to know where you stood payment-wise, but now it reports real time. So I’m excited about that. It’s a great addition, I think, to the portal,

13:04 Emily: I’m sure that gives the additional peace of mind to not have to wait for that communication to come back.

Making Payments on Student Loans During Grad School

13:11 Emily: Now I’m thinking about a person in graduate school, their loans are in deferment. They’re looking ahead to their post PhD career and saying, yeah, “I think I’m going to be able to pay these loans off once I get to that point. I don’t really think I’m going to have to do an income driven repayment program. PSLF is not an attractive…That type of employment is not really my plan.” That’s what they’re saying to themselves in graduate school. In this particular scenario, this graduate student has the flexibility to be able to make some kinds of payments towards their student loans. They’re receiving a stipend. It’s enough for them to live on. They’re able to pursue some financial goals aside from just paying for basic living expenses. Is that a good idea? And how does the person determine whether they should go that route, of repaying a bit of debt during graduate school, or whether they should just kind of defer it all and wait until afterwards?

14:00 Meagan: Yeah, that’s a good question. And I think, yes all of those things you mentioned before have to exist. We need to know that we’re not pursuing PSLF one way or another. And I would suggest before putting money down on the student loans, making sure your emergency savings is healthy. We never want to be in a position where we have thrown all of our money towards our debt, we can’t get it back out, and we need it for an emergency. That is a bad situation to be in. I think having a buffer and savings is important, but I think one thing being in graduate school, we can’t officially enter repayment until we have graduation status. We can, with some of our undergrad loans, if we wanted to, we can enter repayment on those specifically. We can make payments, we just can’t officially enter a repayment plan on our existing school loans, so if you wanted to make payments, you could.

Meagan: Your un-subsidized loans do accrue interest while you’re in school. So that’s anything that says un-subsidized from undergrad and from grad school, and also grad school loans are considered un-subsidized. Those loans specifically accrue interest. Subsidized loans do not. If you wanted to prioritize which loans you’re applying payments to, subsidized loans aren’t going to be growing while you’re in school. So you can maybe prioritize the unsub and I think you can apply it straight to that interest. Again, it’s going to accrue on a monthly basis, so maybe you can find out how much that is and make those payments so it doesn’t grow while you’re in school. Those are some thoughts there. Post-graduation you can immediately enter repayment if you wanted to, by consolidating. You typically have a six month grace period where you can decide what plan you’re going on, get established. But if you wanted to enter repayment officially sooner, you can consolidate and kind of force yourself into repayment.

16:03 Emily: I see. How big of a factor should the interest rate on the unsubsidized student loans play in this decision, about whether to pay them down a bit or pursue other financial goals? We already covered the emergency fund, but if a graduate student is looking at “well, I can start investing for retirement, for example, versus paying down the student loans,” what are your thoughts about how the interest rate should factor into that decision?

16:28 Meagan: Yeah, so the interest rates on student loans do a lot of times fall in a gray area where, I mean, between 5% to 7% — I’m not sure, I’m not confident that you might get a longer term return if you were to invest that extra money instead. It really just depends and it kind of depends on your risk tolerance there. But any interest rates that are below 5%, we can kind of put those lower on the totem pole because if we took that extra money and we put it into our IRA or putting it towards our financial independence, long-term investing tells us on average, we can get close to 7% to 10%. I know that’s a big range, but it just depends. So if our debt is charging us 4%, or 5% even, there is that that net value that we’re missing out on. So I would say lower interest rates, I wouldn’t prioritize necessarily. If you have extra dollars, put that towards savings or put that towards your IRA or have a split approach — put some towards the loans and some towards retirement. When interest rates are higher though, when they’re in the 7% range, which is normal for graduate students, that’s where they’re a little iffy and we might want to prioritize them a little more. Those would be ones that you’d want to prioritize and you can kind of take a avalanche approach where we tackle the highest interest rate loans first, if you wanted to do it that way.

18:01 Emily: Yeah. What if we flip the scenario a little bit and say, okay, well instead this graduate student is someone who is going to pursue an income driven repayment plan and potentially forgiveness, maybe PSLF, but they still have that disposable or discretionary income during graduate school, then I guess the weight would tilt towards starting to invest. If you know that you’re going to be enrolling in one of those plans later, my understanding is, hey, never make an extra payment, never pay more than the minimum, if that is your plan and all that extra money should be going towards your other financial goals.

18:35 Meagan: You said it. Yeah. And we can’t have a qualifying payment while we’re still in school. Sometimes that’s a misconception. People feel like they can enter repayment and start having payments count towards forgiveness. We can’t necessarily with our existing degree loans, we have to wait until post-graduation for those payments to count. So, yes, we don’t want to pay a dollar extra. So throw that towards something that’s going to serve you in the future, and that would be retirement or savings.

Commercial

19:04 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, book club and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now back to the interview.

Taking Out Student Loans During Grad School

20:08 Emily: Yeah, I think another point that might be helpful for the listeners is to understand, if you want to take out federal, and if you have any conception in your mind that there might be a possibility you want to take out a federal student loan during graduate school, what are the steps you need to do in advance to have that be an option for you versus what you just said: well, maybe at the given time that you need money, maybe you can’t take out a loan right at that moment. What steps should a person do in advance? If they’re thinking, yeah, this might be a possibility for me down the road.

20:34 Meagan: You’d want to complete FASFA each year. As a graduate student, your parents information, does it factor in anymore so it is solely on your financial situation. That’s going to help you with the un-subsidized funding, which you can get up to $20,500 for. You’ll also might want to consider looking at signing the graduate plus promissory note, which your financial aid office will tell you to do if you need that additional funding. But it is a separate promissory note. If we need above and beyond that $20,500, then you can spill over into the graduate plus loans. That’s what I would, I would do each year: FASFA and then for the first time you borrow, graduate plus, or if you don’t have graduate plus now, maybe go ahead and sign that promissory note. Either way you have to accept the aid that you’re being awarded. It’s not like you’re just willy-nilly applying for a loan. You have to intentionally accept it, but that gears you up to be able to accept it without having to do all that paperwork in a rush or being too late.

21:41 Emily: Yeah, I guess I’m just thinking financial planning wise for graduate student, going into or in a graduate program where they just know this program is not paying me well, I can barely make ends meet, that might be a thing to do in advance. It’s actually a little bit like having an emergency fund. If you know you can’t build up your own emergency fund right now, where it’s not going to be very big because they just aren’t paying you enough to make that happen, then maybe this is a good sort of backup plan to have. Do all the paperwork in advance, if anything adverse ever happens this is another step that you could take. I don’t love that idea because of course it’s better to just have your own emergency funds and go and you go forward and of course that’s, most of the strategies that I talk about through the podcast is how to overall be building up your savings during graduate school, but just as like a backup plan, it seems like it could be prudent to take these steps so that money, the loans could be available to you if you came upon a situation where you needed it. You do need to take some steps in advance to make that happen, so thank you for clarifying that.

The Intricacies of Student Loan Repayment

How Marriage May Affect Your Repayment

22:40 Emily: Okay, now we’re getting to a couple, maybe more niche kinds of questions. I get a question sometimes from people who are either married or they’re considering getting married, but they want to know how their status as being legally married or not is going to affect things like their tax returns and therefore their student loan repayment amounts. Can you just explain how that works? I’m thinking especially for someone who is maybe considering getting married, but wondering about the timing of it and wondering if they’re going to have to do married filing separately and these kinds of questions. So with taxes and student loans, what happens when you get married and you have student loans or your spouse has student loans?

23:25 Meagan: Yeah. When you get legally married, your tax filing status, when it comes to being on an income driven repayment plan matters. If we’re filing taxes joint with our spouse, and we’re on an income driven plan, it is going to factor in our spouse’s income. We not want that to happen. We may keep our finances separately. We may be trying to keep our payment as low as possible to pursue forgiveness. One strategy we talk about is considering filing separately and what this does, depending on the plan, if we file our taxes separate and we’re on an income driven plan, either pay as you earn income based repayment or income contingent repayment, then we’re allowed to exclude our spouse’s income and keep our payment off of just our own, which can be hugely beneficial.

24:18 Meagan: There are downsides to filing separate that need to be weighed, so you want to do an analysis of what is the cost difference between filing separate and joint? Because you’re missing out on some tax discounts and maybe some benefits. And how does that compare to how much it saves us over the course of the year in our payment? I never want someone to be scared to get married because of their student loans. We can always pivot. It’s just in the year of marriage. You need to know that being married will impact the income driven plan that you’re on and you might want to take a closer look at how you file before you file.

24:57 Meagan: Then the last thing I’ll mention on that is revised pay as you earn, which is 10% of discretionary income, that plan does not care if you file separate. It’s going to count spousal income or all household income regardless. If you’re on that plan and you don’t want your spouse’s income factored in, you might need to switch to either PAYE or IBR and that can kind of solve that problem to where if you don’t want income factored in.

Choosing a Repayment Program

25:25 Emily: Gotcha. Thank you so much for clarifying that. You said earlier there are four different programs plus PSLF you mentioned a few of them just now — for someone who’s looking at this landscape and wondering how in the world do I choose which one of these programs I should enroll in. How can they do that?

25:43 Meagan: A really simplified way to think about it is if you’re going the forgiveness route, you want to choose the lowest income driven plan available. So that would be revised pay as you earn or pay as you earn. If you don’t want spousal income factored in, that would be pay as you earn or IBR, if you don’t have access to pay as you earn. From an income driven plan perspective, that’s how I would think. If our plan is to pay off the loans, then we might want to be choosing one of those amateurized options like the standard 10 year until we can commit to refinancing, or, and this might dive into one of your other topics I know we had mentioned, but if our income is really low now, and we want to take advantage of an income driven plan, but we are not ready to throw a lot towards it, then starting out on REPAYE could be really advantageous because of its interest subsidies. What that means is it has discounts on how much interest accrues when you’re in repayment, but the payment itself might not be as much as it needs to be to cover interest and principle. So it keeps that balance from ballooning and instead of being in forbearance or pausing loans during that timeframe, interests won’t continue to grow in that way. I know we were going to touch on that. I might’ve skipped ahead, but let me know if you want me to slow down on that one again.

27:11 Emily: No, I think it just gives a flavor for how complex this decision is, and how your individual career path and income path will affect the decision that you make, plus what you’re doing in your personal life, whether you want to get married or not. Who should be working with someone like you? What’s the kind of person who should be working with someone like you to figure out what the best decision is? And who’s the kind of person who, well, it’s simple enough, you can figure it out on your own?

When to Consult a Professional

27:38 Meagan: Yeah, I think if you have any anxiety or stress about making this decision, and it’s overwhelming doing this research for yourself, in a one hour consult, we will have your plan put together. If you want to save the time, save the energy and the stress, that’s somebody who would be a good candidate to work with us. For someone who might not be such a great candidate, I think if you are already very familiar with all of these repayment options if for sure that you’re going to be refinancing or just paying it off really aggressively, then I think that would be more so like a quick, “Hey, yup, I think you’ve got the right idea.” And again, that would be if your balance is lower than your income and you’re ready to walk away from those federal flexibilities. I think we won’t be able to provide as much value there, but for folks who have balance is much greater than income, and they’re a little nervous about that decision or navigating that, we would be helpful in that situation.

28:40 Emily: Yeah. I guess the way I’m thinking about it is like how high are the stakes here. If they’re pretty high, if that loan balance is pretty high compared to your income, that’s the time when you need to be sure you’re making the right decision and it helps to get some professional guidance at that point. And like you said, if you can have a one hour session and get a firm answer, that’s going to do well for you for the next 10 years, or unless and until your situation drastically changes, then that is awesome peace of mind to pay for in just an hour. That sounds wonderful.

29:09 Meagan: Yeah, and just the strategy too. There’s a lot of technicalities that go into when to file, like when to certify income, how to reduce income. There’s a lot of things that go into it, so if you wanted to get really sexy with your planning, that’s where we could come into.

The Emotional Aspect of Repayment

29:24 Emily: Okay. Yeah. Great recommendation on that front. Another question occurred to me, pulling together some of the threads that we’ve mentioned so far in the interview, if you are deciding to go in an income driven repayment plan and your intention is eventually to have a lot of that balance forgiven. We mentioned earlier never make more than the minimum payment you’re required to. Don’t make payments during deferment. Don’t make more than the minimum once you’re in repayment. Emotionally, how does a person deal with potentially seeing their balance, plus the interest increase and increase and increase, which is the situation that some people would be in pursuing that route over those 10 years, or even 20 or 25 years, while they’re in those types of programs? How do they emotionally deal with looking at that until they do get to the forgiveness at the end?

30:13 Meagan: It is something I feel like you need to compartmentalize because we are taking a non-traditional approach to debt. I back that up with make sure you know that federal student loans are just not a regular debt. That’s one, that’s the biggest thing we need to remember that if we were going by traditional debt advice, and if this was a traditional debt, we would have the opposite mindset. It would be, let’s pay this off like our hair’s on fire. But the federal system has some really unique opportunities like income driven plans and forgiveness that we can take advantage of that really help us prioritize other financial obligations. Maybe instead of getting anxiety about the loan balance increasing, maybe focus more on your savings increasing. So you have a lot more cashflow to be able to throw towards your financial independence and as long as we’re working towards that forgiveness timeline the balance will grow, but there is an end in sight. That’s something that I think can bring some peace of mind and just knowing and remembering that federal loans are not a normal debt.

31:18 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for that insight. I think I’ll add to it. The real danger here is going into one of these forgiveness plans, one of these income-driven repayment plans, and taking advantage of the lower payment and then not having any movement in the rest of your financial life — not doing the investing, not doing the saving. That’s the real danger when you get to the end of the 10 years or the 20 or the 25. And yes, hopefully everything goes smoothly and the rest of the balance is forgiven, but you kind of have nothing on the other side of it because the whole time you’re thinking, “well, I still have my student loans, so I’m not going to be investing.” If you’re making the intentional decision to pursue an income driven repayment plan and pursue forgiveness, then your high priority needs to be, “yep I’m taking advantage of this, but at the same time, I’m going to be working on my finances over here. I’m going to be building up my portfolio, building my net worth.” And who knows what might happen in the future. If it turns out that the forgiveness was taken away or didn’t happen or something went wrong or something happened in your life, I don’t know, at least you have some net worth on the other side of the equation to potentially deal with the debt or whatever might be going on. It’s really just shoring up your finances in one spot rather than paying off the debt. Thank you so much for that insight.

What is Your Best Financial Advice for an Early Career PhD?

32:31 Emily: Meagan, I like to end all my interviews by asking for your best financial advice for an early career PhD, a graduate student or a PhD. That could be something that’s related to what we’ve talked about in this interview, or it could be something completely else, but would you please share that with us?

32:46 Meagan: I would say, I think my best coin of advice would just be to have a plan. And I know that sounds like so blah, but I think looking at your student loan situation or your financial situation head on is not as scary as it may seem. I think people avoid a lot of financial things because they’re not sure how to tackle it or they’re overwhelmed by it. I promise you, you will feel so much better if we just have a plan from the beginning. Because if you ignore it for three years, which sometimes I see, then we’re three years behind when we finally do pick up and start focusing on it. Having a plan is important for your peace of mind for your future self. It’s self-care to have a plan now. I think that would be what I’d part on there.

33:33 Emily: Yeah. I absolutely totally, totally concur about having a plan. I know looking back at myself when I was in graduate school, not having a financial plan. When you have so little income, so little wiggle room, you know you can never do everything you want to do with your money. You know that you can’t pay off your student loan debt and invest and do all the saving and all the lifestyle. You just have to prioritize and then triage the situation. So that’s what a plan helps you do and thank you so much for that advice.

Where to Find Meagan Online

Emily: Meagan, if people have enjoyed this interview and they’ve learned a lot from you and they want to potentially work with you, how can they get in touch with you? Or where can they learn more?

34:08 Meagan: Yeah. So studentloanplanner.com is a wealth of information. We write a lot of blog posts about anything student loan related. We have a podcast. And if you wanted one-on-one help, you can schedule a consult through our website, studentloanplanner.com.

34:22 Emily: Yeah. Wonderful. There are so many free resources available and it’s really nice to know that there also professionals like Meagan backing that up and there for you, if you need those consultations. Meagan, thank you so much for giving me this interview and joining me today.

34:35 Meagan: Thank you. It was fun nerding out with you.

Outtro

34:38 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How to Curb Your Impulse to Keep Up with the Joneses

November 23, 2020 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Joy Lere, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant on the danger of “keeping up with the Joneses.” Joy explains how emotionally unsatisfying and financially damaging trying to keep up with the Joneses is and that contentment can only come from within yourself. PhDs anticipating future income jumps would do well to put off lifestyle inflation for a least a few years after their salaries increase, which will give them more career and lifestyle choices in the future.

This is post contains affiliate links. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Joy: If you can understand that this idea of peer comparison, it is going to be ever-present, and it’s not so much that the environment or the people around you need to change. What needs to flip is the script in your mind, in terms of the mentality you have when looking to the people in your life.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 12, and today my guest is Dr. Joy Lere, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant. Our topic is the danger of keeping up with the Joneses. Joy explains how emotionally unsatisfying, and financially damaging, trying to keep up with the Joneses is, and that contentment can only come from within yourself. PhDs anticipating future income jumps would do well to put off lifestyle inflation for at least a few years after their salaries increase, which will give them more career and lifestyle choices in the future. This interview really hit home for me, as I reflected on my post-PhD life and finances and where my family is headed next. As you might have garnered from listening to previous episodes of this podcast, I had a pretty good handle on my finances by the end of grad school.

01:30 Emily: And I was truly satisfied with my lifestyle. I had defeated my Joneses. Or so I thought. Then, my husband and I moved to Seattle. We rented a relatively inexpensive apartment in a wealthy neighborhood. There’s a lot of tech money in Seattle, as I’m sure you know. Suddenly, I wasn’t comparing my lifestyle to that of other graduate students in a medium cost-of-living city, but to other full-fledged adults in a high cost-of-living city. I distinctly remember my first and hardest-hitting Jones moment in Seattle. Shortly after we had our first child, I joined a mother support group in my neighborhood. Our first meeting was in the home of our group leader, and each participant would rotate hosting subsequent meetings. I remember walking into our group leader’s house, which was gigantic, gorgeous, and immaculate. It was somewhat shocking to me. Plus, during the meeting, our group leader casually mentioned she was in the process of custom building another house in our neighborhood to move to the next year.

02:33 Emily: My heart sank, knowing that I would eventually host these mothers and babies in my small, dingy, undecorated apartment. That cheap apartment had been a strategic financial choice upon our move. We were following the advice to live like a grad student so that we could keep our retirement savings rate high while I got my business off the ground and we adjusted to parenthood. Even though we had good reasons for living in that apartment, those reasons paled for me, when I saw where and how my group leader lived. And I started questioning all our choices. That was my first big post-PhD Jones moment. I got past that feeling, kind of, eventually, for that situation, but now my husband and I are in the early stages of searching for our very first home to purchase. And I can sense myself starting to become aware again of the Joneses. Since buying a house in Southern California is such a big, expensive decision, I know I have to be really conscious about those feelings and influences. That’s why the subject of this interview was so timely for me. I hope it will be for you as well. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Joy Lere.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:50 Emily: I am just delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Dr. Joy Lere. She is a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant, such an interesting combination. So, I’m really happy to have her on the podcast today. We’re actually going to be talking about keeping up with the Joneses. Or rather, how not to keep up with the Joneses. So, Joy, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

04:11 Joy: Absolutely. It is a joy and a privilege to be here with you today. My name is Joy Lere. I am a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant. So, essentially I am someone who as a clinician works where Freud meets finance. So, I live and work outside of Napa, California, and I’ve a telemedicine practice where I see patients for psychotherapy. And I also work in specializing in consultation within the finance industry. So within that role, I’m providing support, training, education, coaching, and psychotherapy also to financial planners and financial advisors, because there are a lot of really exciting things happening within the industry where there’s more and more attention being given to the fact that people’s relationship with their money is not just a matter of math or economic theory. Money itself is emotional currency. So, having an understanding of human psychology and how that drives financial decisions is really starting to be integrated more and more into the world of finance.

05:33 Emily: Yes. Thank you so much for that description. Yes, of course, I have observed this trend as well. And I’m really excited to have you on. Actually, I did an interview some time ago with Dr. Daniel Crosby. So, we’ll link that from the show notes as well, since that was on a similar topic.

05:47 Joy: He is a good friend and just, he’s fabulous.

Tell Us a Little More About Your Education

05:52 Emily: Oh yeah, it was a wonderful conversation. Would you also tell us a little bit more about your education, because you’ve spent some time in academia as well?

05:58 Joy: Yes. So, I obtained my master’s degree while living abroad in the UK for a couple of years. And I decided after that experience and after starting my clinical work in England, that I wasn’t quite yet ready to be done with school. So, my husband is in the military. We made our way back across the pond. And then I went to graduate school at George Washington University and obtained my doctorate in clinical psychology while I was there.

Can You Define “Keeping Up with the Joneses”?

06:33 Emily: Yeah. Wonderful. Okay. So, our topic for today, keeping up with the Joneses. Probably a phrase that maybe everyone’s heard in the audience, but can you give a little bit more of a fine point on the definition?

06:45 Joy: Absolutely. So, this is a phrase that’s popularized in society, and it really speaks to the way that people look around their social spheres and circles, and look oftentimes at their peers and kind of benchmark their lives and their decisions to that. So, they are seeing something, often an outside image or kind of a curated facade. I think certainly social media makes this even more complicated for people today. And then they think to themselves, “Well, if they have that or they are making that lifestyle choice, that must mean I can, or I should.” So then, they make decisions based on what they are seeing around them.

Does “Keeping Up” Make Anyone Happier?

07:43 Emily: Does attempting to keep up with Joneses actually make anyone happier? You know, we’ll address the financial component of that in a moment, but does it do anything for us emotionally or socially to try to keep up with the Joneses?

07:58 Joy: I think really, being in the comparison trap just keep someone emotionally stuck. Because what is not happening when you’re telling yourself, “I need to be, I need to be doing that. I need to be getting farther ahead,” is you aren’t focusing and being centered from a place of being grateful for what you have and really having a sense of contentment. And when you think about someone’s financial life, when there’s this constant search and drive and need for more and more and more, that can lead to dangerous, destructive places. Being on a hedonic treadmill like that can be exhausting. And the truth is that when a lot of times people think, “Well, I will eventually catch up,” but oftentimes the goalpost just keeps on moving.

09:01 Emily: I was just going to say that the phrase is keeping up with the Joneses, right? It’s not hanging out with the Joneses and being at the same level as the Joneses. It’s just like it implied in the phrase itself is a continual striving, as you were just saying, which sounds totally exhausting. I really like that you make the point that we can also move these goalposts on ourselves. Like yeah. Maybe you caught up with, you know, Jones number one over here. Well, that just means you’re going to switch your attention to Jones number two and try keeping up in some other area.

09:32 Joy: I tell people, throughout your life, there will always be Joneses there. You went to graduate school with them. You looked around there and you were like, “Well, they’re doing this. That means, naturally, that’s what I should be doing.” They are always going to be in your workplace. They’re going to be on whatever street you live. So, you moved to the bigger house, the newer neighborhood. Well then there’s going to be someone else who ultimately has a little bit more. So, if you can understand that this idea of peer comparison, it is going to be ever-present, and it’s not so much that the environment or the people around you need to change. What needs to flip is the script in your mind, in terms of the mentality you have when looking to the people in your life.

The Hedonic Treadmill

10:29 Emily: Yes, such a wonderful point. You mentioned the term hedonic treadmill a couple of minutes ago, and I’m betting not everyone in my audience knows what that is. So, can you explain that a little bit further?

10:42 Joy: This idea that often times we’re running a race, we’re going after more, something better. There’s a desire for enough. And people think they are moving closer to the mark, but really you are just exhausting yourself on a treadmill, and there’s never a finish line. So, when you are caught in this cycle, you’re just going to keep running. And it ultimately is never enough. I think, I encourage people to reflect on this idea of what is enough. Who decides what it is, how much it is, how do you know you have it? You know, even how someone answers that question is, is enough a number? Is it a sense of security? Does the outside world get to decide what enough is? Or is that something that you determine for yourself? No, this is, this is good. I can stop. I can breathe. And I don’t have to continue to feel the need to be amassing more.

11:55 Emily: Mhm. I’m currently reading the book Your Money or Your Life for the very first time. This is inside the Personal Finance for PhD’s Community. We have a book club, so I’m reading it for the book club.

12:06 Joy: That’s fabulous.

12:06 Emily: Yeah, I’m surprised it took me so long to read actually, because of course it has been out for a couple of decades. But anyway, the concept of enough figures very prominently, the argument that the authors are making in that book about having, as you were just saying, determining for yourself, and it’s really about self-reflection and it’s not at all about looking around you at what anybody else is doing. You know, what it is to be content, be full in a sense, like in terms of thinking about your appetite. You’re full, but you don’t want to stuff yourself. You don’t want to go beyond this, you know, level of fullness or contentness or enoughness because it’s damaging not only to your finances, but also to you as a person to, you know, as you were just saying, continually strive to go and beyond, beyond, beyond. One aspect of the hedonic treadmill idea that I understand at any rate is that, maybe it’s a little bit similar to like addiction or like getting into that, but what you need to feel a pleasure hit from spending becomes higher and higher and higher because you become adapted every new spending level.

13:10 Emily: You know, you get to a new spending level, you’re like, “Well, this is fantastic. I have all these new experiences and stuff. It’s wonderful.” And then suddenly it’s just normal and it’s just you again. It’s just you, yourself. And then you have to go to a higher spending level to get that hit again. And that’s the sort of a mountain climbing, like that’s kind of the treadmill aspect of it, is that correct?

13:28 Joy: Yes. Yes.

Keeping Up with the Joneses Affects Your Finances

13:31 Emily: So, we were just talking about how this is not ever going to be emotionally satisfying. What happens to your finances if you are striving to keep up with the Joneses?

13:40 Joy: I think it, peer comparison when it comes to finances is so complex. And oftentimes it is very problematic because peers give you permission to sometimes spend in ways that you ultimately can’t afford. And sometimes there’s pressure or there’s fear of missing out. Now, when we look at this idea and this concept of keeping up with the Joneses, when we look at the financial state of affairs of the average American family, who is indebted, over-leveraged, all of these things, if you are then trying to keep up with someone who is overextending, you are then overextending yourself even more. So, it just perpetuates this problem indefinitely. My great-grandmother who lived through the depression, had this phrase that I love. And I never met her, but it was something that was instilled in my mom. And it was this: “Just because they have it, does not mean they can afford it.”

Just Because They Have It, Does Not Mean They Can Afford It

14:53 Joy: And that is something that so many people confuse. They look at, “Well, this is the house they’re living in. This is the car they are driving. These are the vacations they are taking. And so that must mean like that’s okay.” What they don’t see is what goes on behind closed doors. They don’t see the physical, the psychological cost of the stress that comes with carrying debt. They don’t see the impact of the work stress of the employment situation that person feels like they are trapped in because of the lifestyle that they are living. A lot of that stuff happens behind closed doors. But I tell people, so part of my job as a therapist is–I love my job–so often, I wake up and I’m like, “I truly believe I have the best job in the world because I get to sit behind closed doors with incredibly bright, driven people who are having conversations they aren’t having with anyone else in their lives.” So, I’ve sat behind closed doors with the Joneses. And let me tell you, their lives are not as rich or pretty or neat as most people think when you just see a public-facing persona.

16:28 Emily: Yes. That’s a wonderful phrase from your great-grandmother. And actually, it reminded me of something that my pastor from my church in North Carolina was preaching a sermon one time and was talking about this concept of keeping up with the Joneses. And I remember him saying, you know, if you’re going to follow sort of the the Christian way of handling money, you know, there’s certain things in the Bible, the layout of how you’re supposed to do this. He says, you’re going to be living multiple steps behind who you perceive to be as your peers. You’re going to be living a step behind because you’re not going to be leveraged with debt, at least outside of your mortgage or whatever. You are going to be living in step behind because you’re going to be giving. You’re going to be living a step behind because you’re going to be saving for your future as well.

You’re Going to Be Living Three Steps Behind

17:12 Emily: So, he was like, “You’re going to be living three steps behind, you know, who you perceive to be your peers in terms of like your career or whatever it is.” And that has really stuck with me too, that like, yes, it just, as you were saying, you don’t know how other people are handling, you know, as an outsider, you don’t know what’s going on inside their homes and how they’re really managing to live the lifestyle that you can perceive. And, you know, you brought up social media earlier. We have so many more, I think, potential Joneses in our life right now, because we have access, in a way limited access, to a lot more people from maybe a lot of our different stages of life and even people you don’t know. So, I’m sure that this just exacerbates this entire problem.

17:50 Joy: Yes. And I love what you brought up. You brought up something so important about lifestyle choices. If you do the things that most people do, you are going to get the things that most people get. You’re going to get average. And right now, financially average in our country is not a pretty picture. So, it really requires people to step back and ask, “Okay, what do I really want? And what do I want long-term?” In order to get ahead, you have, especially early on, our little choices compound over time. So, I will often explain to clients and people, if you can make, and this is especially applicable to, to students, to professionals. A lot of times, if you are entering a kind of employment, or you’re graduating, you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to start living the doctor life.” No, hold on.

18:56 Joy: If you can give it a couple of years of living like you are a broke grad student and what you can do with the savings during that time, when a lot of your peers are starting to make very different choices, what that can lead to for you in the long-term is huge. But that requires being able to say, “No.” It requires being able to tolerate, okay. Maybe you’re going to miss out on some things. But, if you can be willing to do things differently than other people, you give yourself a chance at having something bigger and better that most people will never achieve.

Commercial

19:44 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, a book club, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

Present Lifestyle Choices Impact Your Future Comfort

20:49 Emily: I’m really glad that you took the conversation in this direction, because it’s exactly where I wanted to go as well. Talking about, you know, when you have these large income jumps, you know, okay for PhDs, you finished graduate school, maybe you’re moving up to a post-doc. Hopefully, a decent jump in income there. Okay, you’re moving out of the postdoc or directly out of the PhD, you’re getting into a proper job. Hopefully, a big jump there. And maybe, you know, throughout your career, potentially there could be other big jumps as you switch, you know, employers or whatnot. So, a lot of my audience is still in graduate school or is still in training. And so, they’re still anticipating and looking forward to those large income jumps in the future. And of course, the advice you just brought up, you know, there’s versions of it. You know, live like a grad student, live like a college student, live like a resident. It’s basically just, keep that lifestyle, or as close to that lifestyle as you can, from your prior earning stage for at least a little while into that next one. And then as you said, you know, this can do fabulous things to your finances. So, can you elaborate on that a little bit more?

21:45 Joy: Absolutely. And I want to explain. I think something that people often don’t fully understand or account for is in school, or maybe early in your career, you have a picture of, “This is what I’m going to want. I’m on this linear trajectory, professionally.” But things change. Life circumstances change. Sometimes your dreams, your desires, opportunities can lead to different places. And, if you have made financial choices so that you have the freedom and flexibility to change your mind, if you want to at a later time, and not be locked in because of the debt you have and the lifestyle that you have settled into, that gives you a ton of freedom. So, I just really emphasize to students that the things you are doing with your money now in these first years of your career are huge. So, if you can just hold on and be a little bit more conservative in some areas, that can have huge implications for your financial life later on.

Saving During Graduate School

23:11 Emily: Yeah. I actually want to give an example from my own life here. It a little feels like I’m tooting my own horn, but I think it does illustrate what you were just talking about. So, when my husband and I were in graduate school, we did our PhDs at the same time. So, we were both on stipends, same time. We saved, you know, I’m into personal finance, right? So like I was figuring this stuff out early. I was figuring out saving, investing and paying off debt and doing all these things. And so I started that during graduate school. Whereas a lot of people, either one have no opportunity to start saving or investing during graduate school, just completely off the table based on either their going into debt for their degrees, or they’re just simply not paid even a living wage. That was not our case.

23:50 Emily: We were very fortunate. So, we were doing that saving. We, one, could, but two, we took the initiative to do it. We were figuring that out at that time. By the time we finished graduate school, we had amassed quite a decent nest egg. And, you know, one, one attitude could have been during that time, “Well, you know, I may as well just spend what I have have, I don’t really need to save right now because I’m going to have this big income jump in the future. And, you know, it’s going to take care of itself at that time. I won’t worry about investing until, you know, later on.” But because we took that other route of starting as early as we could with, you know, saving and investing and so forth, we had a decent nest egg built up by the time we finished graduate school. That enabled one, my husband to take a job at a startup, which he had never anticipated doing and was completely, you know, really nervous about that.

24:30 Emily: We’re sort of conservative with our careers. And so we were like, “Wow, you know, this good job could go at any point.” But it was just such a perfect fit for him. We were like, “How can he pass this up?” You know, we’ll take the risk. We have the nest egg, we can do that. We can take that risk of him taking that kind of job. Secondarily, I was able to start my business, which meant, you know, just completely going off a different track from, you know, the normal job thing, which is a fantastic opportunity and similarly, very good fit for me. So, I feel like our life, you know, career satisfaction levels were much higher than they would have been had we not been in a financial position at that time to be able to make that choice. And the reason we were in that position was because years earlier we had started this process not really knowing that was how it’s going to work out. You know, we didn’t realize, you know, these opportunities came our way and we could take advantage of them because of the preparation we’d done before that point.

25:19 Joy: Absolutely.

How to Cultivate Contentment in the Now

25:21 Emily: So, I’m thinking about a graduate student, probably. Maybe a post-doc, who is currently maybe even practicing not keeping up with the Joneses. Because they probably have a lot of Joneses in their lives that they couldn’t possibly keep up with. Right? Like it’s just not even a feasible thing for them to do right now. So, what would you say to that person about how to still cultivate contentment in their life when they know they can’t even possibly play the game with the Joneses right now, and also how to maintain that once maybe they are able to get in the game once their income is higher?

25:57 Joy: I think, you know, this idea of game and even if we bring it back to the race. if you can understand everyone is playing a different game, and if you can focus on running your own race and just stay in your lane, that is going to set you up for success. Now, I don’t think that if you are not trying to keep up and you’re making a concerted effort around that, that doesn’t mean your life needs to be devoid of fun and human connection. I think, I encourage people to be creative. You can be the one driving the conversation, making suggestions. And the truth is, sometimes if you are maybe doing things or suggesting things to your social circle that are not going to be exorbitantly costly, there are probably going to be some people who are really relieved. Because here’s the thing. Everyone’s running this race.

27:04 Joy: And some people are more aware of it than others. Some people, based on their upbringing and what they bring to the table in terms of their own money scripts, and what gets activated for them around money, they may have different thoughts and feelings about it. But that’s one way to think about it. And you know, this transition when you do have more income, I think it’s important that it doesn’t become, you know, if you think about someone who’s been on a diet and then it’s like, everything is suddenly available, I’m just going to binge. If you can keep a mentality of moderation, that is going to serve you going forward.

Take Ownership of Social Spending

27:50 Emily: I love those two suggestions. And especially the first one around like, it’s sort of like, money decisions, let’s say about social spending with your peer group. They don’t have to happen to you, right? Like you can actually sort of take the wheel and say, at least some of the time, I’m going to be suggesting things to do that are within my budget. Like you said, probably some other people will be relieved. And so, you know, you can do a combination of planning things and maybe saying yes or no here or there to things that other people suggest. So that you’re not, you know, always, always saying no to everything, but yeah, you can keep it more within your range and steer things. I know, certainly for me in graduate school I found a group of friends that I was comfortable socializing with and we all sort of had the same manner of socializing that we enjoyed, and it was very inexpensive. And it was really good for all of us in that sense.

28:40 Emily: And so, you sort of find your people, is maybe one way. So like, there aren’t so many Joneses, so close to you in your life. I had a couple other ideas about how to like combat this, you know, impulse to keep up with the Joneses. One was to redefine what you’re jonesing for. So like instead of jonesing for the consumption aspects of using your money, Jones for like, “I’m going to max out that 401k,” like “I’m going to, you know, be striving”–if you want to strive for something–be striving for something that’s ultimately going to benefit your finances instead of, you know, working in the opposite direction for you.

29:17 Joy: Change your status symbols.

Happiness is Not Contingent on What You Are Chasing

29:20 Emily: Yes. Oh, that’s a great way of putting it. I love that. It’s very, you know, it’s millionaire next door. Right. So, try to be like that person. Are there any other like sort of behavioral finance tips that you would suggest for, you know, helping people achieve their financial goals without letting these Jones impulses kind of get in their way?

29:40 Joy: Well, I think just really paying attention to what you are benchmarking to, this idea of this is the baseline. I think that’s really important. As you think about and reflect on, I think developing financial self-awareness and doing some reflection and understanding about what gets activated for you with your money, and really starting to dig into some of the more core beliefs you carry about money and how that drives what you do with it. I think those are really important foundational places for people to start.

30:26 Emily: Yeah, I think going along with those exercises as well, and you just mentioned this, is sort of remembering where you’ve come from. Like remembering the influences, of course, that your parents have, and then maybe your peers, you know, through different stages of your life. And remembering like, especially once you’ve passed, like the graduate school stage, like, “Okay, back then I did live on this amount of money. I did have this size of home. I did do these things. Was I happy then? Was I content then? Why are things different now? Could they be more similar to how things were in the past?” I’m asking myself some of these questions now that I’m, you know, a few years out of graduate school.

31:02 Joy: If you are telling yourself, “I will be happy when,” and you are then looking to something in the future, I would really encourage you to go back into your history and think about this idea of happy. What is some other evidence you have that there have been other times when you’ve had that feeling that experience that you haven’t had that thing? So, happiness is not contingent on that which you are chasing.

The Power of “No”

31:34 Emily: Yeah. That’s such a, I think foundational point about happiness, that I’m only just sort of starting to learn myself now in my thirties. And I wish I had known it because I am the type of person who kind of always has goals and is always striving for something. And my husband definitely kind of complains and kind of ribs me for like always wanting the next thing. And why can’t you be satisfied now? And, I am starting to realize like that. Whoo. That’s just how I am. I need to really like, look at that because I’m never going to get there. Right? If that’s what I’m basing that on. Is there anything else you wanted to add, Joy, before we wrap up the interview here?

32:09 Joy: I think this idea of there’s a lot of power in saying no and having financial boundaries, that’s something I do a lot of talking with people about. I think a lot of things get in the way of people saying, “No.” There’s a fear of missing out. There’s a discomfort with what you are anticipating someone else’s reaction is going to be. And the truth is, I believe people would be healthier, wealthier, and less exhausted overall if they built that muscle of saying “No” more often. And again, that’s not saying no to everything. But if you are finding yourself in a situation in your gut where you’re like, “I’m going to say yes, but I really don’t want to do this.” Ask yourself why. And then what is getting in the way of your taking care of yourself? If it’s your energy, if it’s your finances, and what would need to happen in order for you to have the courage to say, “No?” And what is the cost to your yes? Be that financial, physical, psychological.

How To Connect with Joy Lere

33:27 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. How can people find out more about the work that you do? Or I don’t know, if they want to be a client of yours. Like how do people connect with you?

33:37 Joy: My website is my name. J O Y L E R E. Joylere.com. I am active on LinkedIn, Joy Lere Psyd, and also spin my creative wheels on Instagram a little bit, @ joylerepsyd, and also love to hang out on Twitter and connect with people there. Also, my handle is joylerepsyd.

Best Advice for an Early-Career PhD

34:02 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. That’s where we connected as well. So, final question here, Joy. What is your best financial advice for an early-career PhD? It could be something we’ve touched on in this interview, or it could be something else entirely.

34:14 Joy: My best advice is to do things different than most people around you. If you do that now, you will have things that no one else later on in their career will likely be able to accomplish and achieve.

34:36 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. Thank you so much for this interview and for joining me today.

34:39 Joy: Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Thanks for sharing your platform with me.

Outtro

34:44 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD Student’s Intricate Budgeting System Uses Cash Symbolically

October 12, 2020 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Alicia Jones, a PhD student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and the creator of the YouTube channel Alicia Does Adulting. Alicia explains in detail her intricate budgeting system, which involves creating a zero-based budget every two weeks, allocating cold hard cash into envelopes, contributing to her debt avalanche, and funding her targeted savings accounts. She uses this budget to keep her intimately connected with her spending decisions and accountable to her financial goals. Alicia and her husband have paid off $70,000 of debt in the past year and a half and now have a positive net worth.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Find Alicia Jones on YouTube
Video: Science Behind Sinking Funds
Personal Finance for PhDs: Community
Personal Finance for PhDs: Podcast Hub
Personal Finance for PhDs: Subscribe to the mailing list

Teaser

00:00 Alicia: I try to turn whatever I can into a game. And finance has become a game for me. I do the little colored charts. I want to see exactly how much money I can put towards savings or debt each month and that continues to motivate me.

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast, a higher education In personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode six. And today my guest is Alicia Jones, a PhD student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and the creator of the YouTube channel, Alicia Does Adulting. Alicia explains, in detail, her intricate budgeting system, which involves creating a zero based budget every two weeks, allocating cold, hard cash into envelopes, contributing to her debt, avalanche and funding her targeted savings accounts. She uses this budget to keep her intimately connected with her spending decisions and accountable to her financial goals. So far Alicia, and her husband has paid off $70,000 of debt in a year and a half and now have a positive net worth.

01:12 Emily: You’ll hear an exciting new addition to the interview today, which is a couple of questions contributed live by members of the Personal Finance for PhDs community. Going forward, members of the community are invited to attend my podcast recording sessions and ask their own questions of my guests. If you would like to participate in the interviews as well, all you have to do is join the community at pfforphds.community. If you’d like to check out my schedule of upcoming podcast recording sessions, you can find that pfforphds.com/podcast. Joining the community is an excellent way to support the podcast. Plus, you’ll receive myriad other benefits. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Alicia Jones from Alicia Does Adulting.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:58 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Alicia Jones from Alicia Does Adulting, which is the name of her YouTube channel. And Alicia has really fantastic story to tell us, but really primarily, she’s here to teach us her budgeting system, which is quite intricate. And I highly recommend that you go check out her YouTube channel. It’s actually really fascinating. You’ll be hearing more about it as we go forward. Ao Alicia, please introduce yourself a little bit further for our audience.

02:26 Alicia: Well, thank you so much for having me. This is super exciting. My name is Alicia. I’m a third year doctoral student and I go to the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaige. I am studying kinesiology. I actually got my masters from U of I in kinesiology as well. And my research interests are kind of varied. I’ve not had the most traditional grad student experience. I am running on average three studies at once, just because of the way my program is. Overall, my research is how behavioral changes impact the overall wellbeing of people with and without disabilities. I also work in MS work. I work in breast cancer work. I kind of do a little bit of everything, but it’s nice being in kinesiology because you get to wear leggings to class sometimes. If you’re looking for a major or concentration, highly recommend exercise science for that.

03:20 Emily: All right. That’s really fun. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. And along the way of your grad school journey, or maybe before, I don’t know, you developed an interest in personal finance, and in particular, you started your YouTube channel, Alicia Does Adulting. The channel name is quite general, but I think that you mostly talk about personal finance stuff, is that right?

03:39 Alicia: Yeah. The way that I introduced the channel is that I’m attempting to get my life together and I’m focusing on finances first. Eventually I would like to fully adult with all the aspects of adulting, but I’m not there yet. I’m still working on the money part.

03:55 Emily: Yeah. Well, the money part is going to, it takes a lifetime to work all this stuff out.

Alicia’s Budgeting System

The Basics

03:59 Emily: Really excited to get to the topic of our conversation today, which is on your budgeting system, which of course, when I saw your YouTube videos, I was absolutely fascinated by this. Please, I know it’s going to take a little while to explain, but just kind of walk us through all the different elements that you use for your budgeting.

04:14 Alicia: Definitely. I will start off with, I’m not saying that this budgeting system is for everyone. Everyone has their own way of making this work for them. I actually originally started doing a monthly budget and it failed horribly and I started playing around with it from there. The way that I will describe my budgeting system is that it is a zero-based, paycheck-to-paycheck budget.

04:41 Alicia: What does that mean? Zero-based means that I take any remaining penny after my bills, expenses, free spending money, any of that, and it gets given a specific job. So before the pandemic, that was pretty much exclusively going towards debt. When the pandemic hit, I switched my goals and I wanted to save some money, so it all went there. So I have $0 left after my paychecks are all cleared. I do keep a little bit of money in my checking account just because math is not always my friend and sometimes I forget something. I leave about a hundred dollars cushion. So you don’t have to worry about overdraft fees this way.

05:23 Alicia: Then I do paycheck to paycheck. Between my husband and I, we have anywhere between four and eight or nine jobs at once. The paycheck to paycheck system worked well for me because every other Friday we each had a steady income coming in on those days. All of the bills that come up during that pay period, I take care of all of that during that paycheck. Then if I’m saving up for something, I can kind of devote that. It comes down to a lot of planning and a little bit of strategy, I guess.

05:56 Emily: Yeah. Let me make sure understand exactly what’s going on here, because this is definitely different from how I budget and probably how most people do it, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on. When you say that you have the zero based budget, is what you mean that when you receive your pay or at least every second Friday, when you’re settling up, you are at that point, allocating all of the money for the upcoming two weeks, is that right?

06:20 Alicia: I do it within the week. Anything that was due on that Friday, I account it starting there up until the next Thursday. Whenever the bill is hit, for the most part, I tend to pay my bills about two weeks in advance, just because I’d never want to miss it. That just tends to be my system, but if you look at a true paycheck to paycheck, it would be within that Friday to the following Thursday.

Dealing with Variable Expenses

06:46 Emily: Okay. And then I understand that the bills that have come in, that’s a fixed amount, you know what it is. What about money that’s sort of up to you, like your grocery spending or some discretionary money. Are you allocating a maximum that you’re going to put towards that? Or how do you handle variable expenses?

07:05 Alicia: This is where my system probably gets more complicated to people, but it’s what works for me. I use a cash envelope system on top of it. For groceries, for example, for our household, every paycheck, I set aside $300 for household, so groceries and whatever else might come about, but then I put everything on credit cards. If you watch my channel, you’ll see I will do an expense tracker where I go through every single penny that I spent, then I actually will take the money out of the cash envelopes. The reason why I like this system is I am a chronic spender. I actually managed to get myself into $15,000 of debt in my early twenties and I never want to be in credit card debt like that again. This is kind of like a checks and balance system. If I didn’t have that check for me personally, if I say I’m only spending $50 on clothing, and then I find a $75 outfit that I really want, in my brain, I still want credit card. I want to put it on a credit card. I want it now, that kind of thing.

Alicia: What I can do with my system is, “okay, I bought the $75 outfit, I have to make a sacrifice somewhere else because I don’t have any flexibility.” That $25 could come out of my household to make up the difference, but then I can’t spend all of my money on household. It kind of becomes a checks and balance system. And for me, I’m flexible with it. Some people, with the envelope system, it’s very much like when you hit the end of your envelope, you cannot spend any more. And I just give myself a little bit more leeway. Things come up, or sometimes you just need to de-stress a little bit and maybe you go out and have a drink with a friend or something. As long as I’m making sacrifices and none of it stays on my credit card, then I’m happy with it.

09:01 Emily: So the cash aspect is actually a stand in for just, this is the limit. The important part is not literally that you’re using cash because ultimately when you make the purchases, you are not using cash, you are using credit cards. But the cash is just sort of a visual and physical reminder that, okay, that’s the end of the envelope, you’ve reached the end, now you must reallocate if you need to go beyond that. I definitely like this aspect of it because I am not that strict with my budget anymore. I used to be quite strict in a similar way, like, okay, I overspent here, I’ll have to transfer from somewhere else now. I sort of let it go, but I definitely find it attractive to, at the end of the day, make sure everything’s added up to zero to account for the entire paycheck.

How Alicia Keeps Her System Flexible

09:43 Emily: Okay, we’ve talked about it being a paycheck to paycheck budget, a zero based budget. You’re allocating every single dollar that’s coming in. We talked about the cash envelopes. Are there any other elements to your budget that you’d like to share?

09:56 Alicia: I think the big thing for me, and it’s one of the things that I think some people don’t understand if you’ve watched the channel for a little bit. It’s strict and slightly complicated, but it also allows for a lot of flexibility, and that was something that was really important to me. Everyone that’s listening to this is either in grad school or wants to go to grad school or has experienced grad school and we know how stressful it is. And I try to add as little extra stressors to my life as I can, but I have a bunch of student loan debt that I really want to pay off. I have a bunch of financial goals, like I’m working towards technically retiring early. I want to have that kind of cushion in my bank account. So I want to start working towards those goals, but I also just don’t want to stress myself any more. It is a little bit time consuming, which is why I’ll say it’s probably not for everyone, but it is something to potentially give it a try. It’s been really fun on the YouTube channel in particular, because I get to hear people trying my system and it was never really meant for other people to try it, it’s just what worked for me, so it’s been really cool to hear success stories about how it works. If you’re interested in it, definitely give it a shot.

11:11 Emily: There was one more thing that I wanted to ask you about, which is, I believe that you also use sinking funds or, I use the term targeted savings accounts for that. Is that the same as your envelopes or is that a separate sort of variation on that?

11:25 Alicia: It’s very similar, but I leave my sinking funds online because they’re usually bigger purchases and I just don’t want to have that cash on me, personally. I put all of my sinking funds into one checking account and then I have an online tracker for everything. It’s a similar kind of grace system of, I actually have three sinking funds that are negative right now, and it’s because I’ve borrowed from other places. We do an annual trip to Canada, but we didn’t this year because the borders were closed. So I have some money set aside in that account that I can borrow from. I do highly recommend sinking funds or targeted savings. They have been a massive game changer for me because that was one of the ways that when I originally started to budget without much guidance, those types of things like needing new tires, I logically knew that those that was going to happen, but I never planned for it. And then the month would come and it would be a disaster and it would go on a credit card and then I’d carry on. And that’s how I got $15,000 of credit card debt.

12:31 Emily: Yeah. Can you actually, for the listener, explain a little bit further what a sinking fund or a targeted savings account is, and actually give a few maybe examples or your list of which ones you have named.

12:41 Alicia: Definitely. Sinking funds and targeted savings accounts are things that you’re saving up for that you know will eventually happen. For me and my family, we celebrate Christmas. Christmas happens same time every single year, and I know approximately how much I want to spend. So instead of in December pulling $600 out of my budget, every single month, I put $50 into a Christmas sinking fund account. I have some for the Canada trip that I mentioned, which is usually about a $2,000 expense, so I save a couple hundred dollars every single month, so it doesn’t feel super overwhelming to me.

13:19 Alicia: I actually did some research into sinking funds because they were such a game changer and I’m a grad student nerd, so I wanted to know what the literature said, and it’s actually a concept of being able to allocate money with a name. I don’t know if any listener or if you might have this experience, but I’ve actually always been a semi-decent saver. I always had money and usually several thousand dollars, at least in my savings account, but then my tires would blow up and I would need new ones and I’d put it on a credit card because to me in my brain that wasn’t an emergency. I shouldn’t take that out of my emergency savings. That money always has to be there. So by allocating this little bit of money that just sits to the side that has a name, it makes the rational jump of, “Oh, I need new tires. I have a car maintenance fund. It comes from the car maintenance.” That is probably one thing I will keep the rest of my life, no matter what. It is a massive game changer for me.

14:19 Emily: Yeah. I absolutely love sinking funds and targeted savings accounts as well. I started using them in grad school as well, when, similar to you, I had some expenses come up and in our case we didn’t go into credit card debt, but we just had to say no to a bunch of stuff that we didn’t want to say no to. And it kind of helped us realize, okay, well we do need to do some advanced planning for these sort of large expenses that come up every so often. So I started using them in grad school as well. And I did have a year when I didn’t use them, which was the year from when we left Durham, where we were living during graduate school and moved to Seattle. And so for that first year in Seattle, everything was an upheaval and we had no idea, it was a lot harder to predict your expenses once you moved to new place, et cetera, et cetera. But after that year, I was like, “Nope, I’m tired of living this way. I need to go back to having the targeted savings accounts in place.” So they’re back in place and still in play, which has been wonderful. Of course, 2020 has thrown things off quite a bit. Like you didn’t end up using your Canada trip money and certainly we’ve had spending opportunities that we anticipated that didn’t happen, so there’s definitely been some reallocation, but you kind of have to roll with it.

Using a Combination of Cash and Credit

15:25 Emily: Actually we have a question that just came in from one of my Personal Finance for PhD community members. I invite my community members to listen in on my podcast recordings. So if you are listening to this podcast and you want to be in on these recording sessions and ask your own questions, I invite you to join the community. You can find it at pfforphds.community. The question that just came in is: why or how did you decide to use both cash and a credit card and not just cash? What do you do with the cash since you’re not actually spending it? And this is exactly the question that I was gonna ask too, so please go ahead.

16:00 Alicia: Yeah. This is one of the biggest questions that I get. The big reason why I didn’t want to use just cash is because I’m on campus very late at night. And so I didn’t feel comfortable. I have a very relatively safe campus, but I just didn’t want to have any extra money on me that I didn’t need to have. I’m also not a purse or bag carrier, so I have just like a little wallet that has my keys. So having the credit cards was more convenient for me and some places on my campus actually don’t take cash, they only take cards. So the few times I’d like go to pay for something. I would have had to put it on a card anyway. But there are a few benefits for me personally, at least I guess, not just me, but you do get a little bit of extra security. If something goes wrong, if it’s a payment that you didn’t actually make or something like that, there’s security systems built into credit cards, which is beneficial. I have a little bit of extra leeway. If something massive happens, so for a real life example, last night, I had to take my cat to an emergency vet and that is $2,000 and that was not in the budget. That will go on a credit card, which now gives me 30 days to pay it off before any interest hits. That’s a nice benefit. And you also get cash back. Eventually I do want to get into travel hacking, but right now I just use the cash back to help pay off random bills that come up that I wasn’t expecting or kind of like treat yourself things. And on average, I make about a hundred dollars a month on my cash back credit cards, so I’ll take that.

17:42 Emily: Yeah, that definitely helps with the budget as well, to give you a little bit more wiggle room. And then the other part of that question was, so you literally have cash in your home, and it just gets recycled paycheck to paycheck period? What exactly is happening with that cash?

17:56 Alicia: It kind of depends. Before COVID, I was very good at taking that money, putting it into the deposit envelope and taking it right back to the bank. Since I’ve been limiting my trips, it has been getting recycled. So the people at my bank know me very well and they know I have very specific denominations that I asked for. They were very used to me doing it, but it is just kind of like a cycle of cash. So I end my week on a Thursday and usually on Friday is when I will go through all of my expenses and pull out all the cash. If it’s convenient for me to go to the bank, that money just goes back and then goes directly to credit cards. If not, since COVID that money kind of just sits there, and then the next time I need to take out cash, I just don’t take it. So the cash that got left in the bank account that never came out, goes towards the credit cards.

Commercial

18:49 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, book club and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now back to the interview.

Debt Repayment Under Alicia’s Budgeting System

19:53 Emily: You mentioned earlier that you’re working on student loan debt repayments, some other debt repayment — how does your debt repayment process figure into the budget?

20:02 Alicia: That’s one of the reasons why I like the zero based budget. I do a debt avalanche. I target one debt at a time and I specifically targeted the highest interest debt to save the most amount of money that I could in interest. I have an allotted amount of all of the previous debt that I’ve paid off. Each month $1,600 actually goes towards debt pretty much no matter what. Maybe in a massive emergency I wouldn’t, but I pretty much do that every month. Then whatever excess money I have goes towards debt. I pay all of my bills, I do all of my cash envelopes and sinking funds, and then every other penny gets thrown towards debt.

20:47 Emily: I see.

20:48 Alicia: It becomes a big part of my budget.

20:50 Emily: Just to clarify, I think when you said all the debt you’ve paid off in the past, what you’re talking about is the minimum payments of each one of the debts that you’ve made in the past that have now been cleared. You’re still quote unquote making that minimum payment. You’re just making it to the next debt and you you’re in your list, the top debt in your list. So it used to be that you had minimum payments of $1,600 and now some portion of that is you just throwing additional money at your current top loan, is that right?

21:18 Alicia: Yep. And so the way it ended up working with the debt avalanche method in particular, pretty much all of my big minimum payments were first. I did, after about five months of starting budgeting, get a $20,000 medical bill, so I put that onto a credit card and I had one year to pay that off and I made the decision to have that as part of my minimum payments and my debt snowball too. It got a lot bigger because of that.

21:44 Emily: Yeah. Wow. I’m so glad to have these examples of real life coming at you. Not that it’s pleasant or happy, but just as instructive as it is for the listeners to learn how you’re dealing with that, because I’m sure a lot of them have had similar experiences or are having similar experiences.

22:00 Emily: One comment about that debt repayment method — I think I made this name up, so I don’t know if anyone else uses it, but I call what you just explained saving first and last. In the personal finance community, we talk a lot about pay yourself first. So as soon as you get paid, you do your debt snowball, you put money towards that, all of your financial goals, you put money there, then you spend whatever remains. But I also used your system of, okay, I have my financial goals, that’s happening right after I get paid, and then whatever money I have left over because I came in under budget in X, Y, Z categories, that also gets saved or thrown into a debt snowball or debt avalanche process. I call that saving first and last because saving last is like not a good idea, but saving first and last to me that was like motivational to come in under budget in these various categories so I would have more money to throw towards the financial goals. Does that work same for you?

22:54 Alicia: Yeah. And I don’t know if you’ve read any of like the gamify literature, but that’s kind of what I do with everything is I try to turn whatever I can into a game. And finance has become a game for me. I do the little color charts. I want to see exactly how much money I can put towards savings or debt each month. And that continues to motivate me. I hadn’t thought about that it was first and last, but it definitely is.

Why This Budgeting Method Works For Alicia

23:19 Emily: Yeah. So you mentioned earlier, your system is complex, it’s intricate. That may not be for everyone, but why have you made it so complex to yourself? Why do you think that this is working well for you?

23:32 Alicia: I think a big part of it is that I am very numbers driven and I wanted to take this journey to learn as much as I could about myself and about my finances, particularly since I’m the spender of my family. I wanted to know every little piece of data and I don’t really show it too much on the channel, but I do run the numbers for myself. I like to see exactly how much I’ve increased in household spending from this time, this year versus last time. It’s complicated, but part of it just feels like I’m learning lessons every single week. And particularly with using cash and credit, I’m having to constantly remind myself that you can have certain things, but you have to make sacrifices. You don’t just get the easy win all the time. You have to balance it out.

24:24 Emily: Yeah. When I talk with people about budgeting, sometimes I talk about the merits of using an app versus like maybe creating your own spreadsheet, or at least doing manual tracking in some manner, even if it is in an app or something. And what I say about that is that, doing these things manually keeps you very intimate with your numbers. It keeps you very closely connected to facing up to the decisions that you’re making and reconciling them. It sounds like that’s why you’re doing that. In terms of recommending the system to anyone else, who do you think the system would work well for?

24:56 Alicia: It has to be someone that’s pretty motivated, I think, because it does take more time than just tracking it within an app. But I think this is someone who, if you’re very motivated by learning, I think that’s probably the biggest thing. I’m constantly diving back into my own spending habits and I really like self help type things. I love working on self-improvement and that’s, I think why I was really drawn to this method of constantly having to learn and adapt and that to me is exciting.

25:30 Emily: Yeah, that sounds wonderful. What motivates you to stick with this now intricate and somewhat time consuming system?

25:40 Alicia: Honestly, one of the biggest thing is accountability. One of the reasons why I first started this channel is I’ve found that the more that I talk about things that I experienced in my life, the more people I find to have experienced similar things, or can relate and give advice. I started talking about money with my friends and family. I started talking about it on my YouTube channel, and if you follow it, you see just about everything that I spend and do and whatnot. Unless I forget something, you see it. Knowing that that’s always there, that my friends are now tracking my progress in some ways, on the times that I’ve just really wanted to go and do something, maybe not super crazy, but a little bit frivolous I don’t because I know someone’s holding me accountable to it. And unfortunately I’m not the type of person that can just hold myself accountable. Having other people has really, really helped me in this journey.

26:39 Emily: Yeah. I’ll say another vote for that as well. My current website, my home on the web is pfforphds.com but during graduate school, I was actually blogging for under a different website, which was evolvingpf.com, Evolving Personal Finance. And I similarly, not as frequently as you, but I would do at least monthly reports of this was everything I spent and this was a very popular thing to do on the internet at that time. And I’m sure it’s still maybe on YouTube as well. And it was really, really great accountability for us, helping us to stick to our goals. We use that during the time that we were in graduate school when we really had a tight budget and we had high, lofty goals for our money. It seems less necessary in my life now, post PhD, so I’ve kind of moved on from it, but it was a really, really useful tool for that time. And just actually to mention the community again, this is something that any listener can do through the PFforPhDs Community, if you choose to use it that way. It can be great for accountability, and you’re welcome to report all your spending inside that community as well, if you want. It’ll be private. It won’t be open for everyone to see, but you will have the other community members there to at least in theory, hold you accountable.

How Alicia Uses Her Budgeting Method for Achieving Financial Goals

27:48 Emily: I was also thinking about your debt repayment journey, and now you said earlier that you’ve also started saving up more since the pandemic. Maybe your priorities are a little bit different. Can you talk about using this budgeting system and how you’re motivated to use it towards your financial goals?

28:03 Alicia: Yeah. So I started this journey with $120,000 of debt and actually just this month, I’m under the $50,000 mark, so we’re making some pretty good progress. But it comes back to the idea of kind of gamifying everything. I turn as much as I can of my life into a game to keep it fun and interesting. Each month being able to see my savings account get higher, and then you get additional interest, which is also a nice little boost because it feels like free money. And then seeing my interest amounts go down when I pay off debt or just seeing the numbers go down. Each and every month I track that I track both of those and then I also track my net worth. And so each of those has become a game to me, and again, I try to not have too much stress in my life, so if my net worth goes down, I don’t beat myself up over it. I know it’s part of the journey. When the pandemic hit, I was working really hard to pay off all of my debt by May of 2021 beause that’s when I turned 30 and I wanted to be debt free by 30. That didn’t happen and that’s not going to happen because pandemic, but now I’ve been able to see my investments grow a little bit. I’ve been able to see my savings grow. Having constant check-ins, or at least regular check-ins really helps keep me motivated.

29:21 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for telling us about that. How do you think being a PhD student interacts with this journey? I know you’re married, so presumably your husband is not a graduate student as well. Do you think that being a PhD student plays into your budgeting or your financial goals at all?

29:39 Alicia: I think in some ways. I think possibly the reason why it’s so complicated is because I do like data as much as I do, and I like being able to see those numbers. Tracking absolutely every single thing, maybe a PhD thing, but I think also being a PhD student and looking at things from more of a logical point of view has also really helped me. Being able to sit down and like logically look at the debt versus how much money I could have in retirement has really helped me on the journey. It’s helped me take some of the emotions out of finance when finance is a very emotional thing. It can be your entire life. I think that’s kind of where the PhD-ness comes out

30:23 Emily: More of like the personality of a PhD student or PhD. Will you please recommend a video or two, if people want to check out your channel, Alicia Does Adulting. So you count cash on your channel, which I had never watched a video of before, but now that I’ve seen on your channel, wow it’s actually pretty riveting. Would you recommend a video or two for people to kind of get an intro to you?

30:46 Alicia: It sounds really odd when you tell people the first time I’m a former bank teller, so the sound of cash is very soothing to me. That’s how I actually found personal finance YouTube, was cash counting. Any of the “budget with me”, you can see in detail how I do my budgets and then see the cash counting, which is very fun. I actually have a video coming out this next week, which is really exciting, so before October 1st and it’s the science of cyclical savings. I’ve kind of evolved my channel a little bit into at least two educational videos per month-ish, when I can.I dug into financial literature and I started to find different savings strategies, investment strategies. Different things that my population for the most part is not PhD students they’re not going to go to academic literature, so I kind of break it down into more lay terms for people, because I genuinely just want everyone to have a good financial standing and for it to not be stressful for them. That will be out next week and I’m really excited to talk about that, and how you can save 80% each month more than if you didn’t have a plan.

31:59 Emily: Oh, wow. Yeah. I’ll definitely watch that video and will, and get from the show notes as well beause it should be out by the time this episode comes out. That sounds fabulous.

Questions from the Personal Finance for PhDs Community

32:06 Emily: I want to take a pause here and invite any members of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community who have a question at this point. This is your opportunity to follow up with Alicia and maybe get some more specifics for your situation.

32:18 Emily: Okay, so we do have one question that came in from a community member. Would you say that using cash is symbolic for you more than anything?

32:27 Alicia: I think symbolic is a really good word for it. I just need one extra thing of accountability and I’m the type of person if I hand over $20 that actually wasn’t as painful for me as having to budget it at the end, so using just cash envelopes, didn’t really work for me in that sense, but physically going through and having to pull money out of my personal spending for an unexpected thing is very symbolic and just kind of helps visualize that process for me.

33:00 Emily: Yeah. I really liked that aspect of it as well. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I actually didn’t really catch on to that just from watching a few of your videos, that the cash was really being recycled, at this point, not before, but at this point.

Best Financial Advice for an Early Career PhD

33:10 Emily: We’ll wrap up with our final question, Alicia, which is what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD?

33:17 Alicia: My biggest advice is it’s never too early to start and it is never too late to start. Every little bit that I’ve done along the way has helped. Every step you take really does help you and if you have never really thought about looking at your finances, today’s the day to start because you never know when one of these unexpected massive things are going to hit. Since I started my journey, I’ve had a lot of massive financial things happen and because I understood my money and I understood where I was at, I could face $20,000 of medical debt with relative calmness, which I can guarantee you, Alicia from five years ago would have been a sobbing mess over all of it and I was actually pretty calm. My biggest advice is just start. Even if it’s small, even if it’s $5, it really does add up.

34:13 Emily: Yeah, I totally totally agree. And actually just to give people some scope, you said you’ve paid off, I think it’s over $70,000 worth of debt right now. Over what time period did you do that?

34:22 Alicia: It’s been about a year and a half.

34:25 Emily: Oh wow!

34:26 Alicia: Yeah! Our first year was really good and then everything kind of hit the fan. This year has not been great, but we actually went from a negative $56,000 net worth and we’re now in the positives. We’re about to hit $10,000, which might not sound like a big net worth to a lot of people, but it was a big deal for me to be positive.

34:46 Emily: Yeah. You’re now at a $10,000-aire, right? Every order of magnitude we can celebrate. Well, this has been such a wonderful conversation, Alicia, and thank you so much for joining me and sharing your experience and your wisdom with my listeners.

35:00 Alicia: Well, thank you so much for having me. This has been super fun!

Outtro

35:04 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How a Freelancing Career Can Take You from Academia to Affluence

August 24, 2020 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. Courtney became a successful freelance writer after leaving her PhD program in anthropology and moving to one of her field sites. She now teaches other academics how to launch freelancing careers through her course, Endless Freelance Income. In this interview, Courtney gives us her #1 piece of advice for new freelancers, which all academics need to take to heart! She also outlines the simple steps it takes to get your freelance career off the ground. Courtney’s location-independent business has enabled her to earn a very nice income on very part-time work, which will be attractive to academics looking to freelance for a side or main income.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Courtney: I actually do not work full time. I work maybe 15 or 20 hours a week. But I actually still earn a full-time income because I get paid well.

Introduction

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 17, and today my guest is Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. Courtney became a successful freelance writer after leaving her PhD program in anthropology and moving to one of her field sites, but it wasn’t all smooth sailing. She now teaches other academics how to launch freelance careers through her course, Endless Freelance Income. In this interview, Courtney gives us her best advice for new freelancers, which all academics need to take to heart. She also outlines the simple steps it takes to get your freelance career off the ground. Courtney’s location-independent business has enabled her to earn a very nice income on a very part-time schedule, which I know is attractive to academics looking to freelance for a side income or main income. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:17 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. And I just want to tell you, in one second, how Courtney and I first met online, which is that I saw a post that she wrote a few months back on Jobs on Toast, and I saw her business name, Academia to Affluence, and I was like, this is going to be a good fit. I need to talk with Courtney. So, Courtney, will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself and why your business name is what it is and what you’re up to?

01:47 Courtney: Okay. Yes. So sure. My name is Courtney Danyel. I am an anthropologist by training, but I actually wear quite a few different hats. I’m a freelance business writer also. I’ve been doing that for the past seven years. And as an anthropologist, I’ve worked in Africa in the Central African Republic and Ethiopia. And I actually currently live in one of my field sites, which is Ethiopia. I’ve lived here since I started freelancing seven years ago. And another thing that I started doing late last year was I started mentoring other academics and other people with an academic background to help them transition into freelancing and actually have created an online course for that purpose.

Top Advice for an Academic to Start Freelancing

02:30 Emily: Yeah. So the course name is Endless Freelance Income. I’m actually affiliate for Courtney’s course. I had an opportunity to check it out, you know, before this interview, I think it’s fabulous. And if you want to find out more about that on my end, you can go to pfforphds.com/freelance and find out more about Courtney’s course. And I actually have a couple of bonuses for people in my audience who want to sign up for her course. So, first, you know, right up front, we’re going to get some insights from this course. And then we’ll learn a little bit more about Courtney’s background and her personal story that got her to this point. So, Courtney, your absolute top advice for an academic looking to start freelancing, what is it?

03:10 Courtney: My number one piece of advice for academics who want to start freelancing is to command high pay from day one. That’s because that’s a major mistake that I made when I first started freelancing. I had finished my master’s and I had done part of my PhD and I ended up dropping out of my PhD and decided to switch to freelancing. And as far as I was concerned, I thought I was starting from zero because I was doing freelance writing and I’m writing about topics that aren’t related to my academic discipline. And so, “I don’t know what I’m doing.” And that’s basically what I thought about myself. And so for that reason, I didn’t think that I deserved very high pay. And then I took a lot of jobs that didn’t pay very well at all.

03:57 Courtney: Actually, for the first year and a half or so that I freelanced I was not paid well at all. And then one day I was doing some research for an article that I was writing. I did a lot of ghostwriting back then, which is you write content for other people and it’s published under their name. And I was doing some research for an article that I was ghostwriting for a client. And I Googled something and I clicked on an article that was on forbes.com and I looked at it and it looked familiar. And then I realized that it was written by me. And after I realized that, I started doing some more Googling and I found that my content, stuff that I had written for my clients, had been published on Forbes, Vice, Business Insider, entrepreneur.com and like all these different top business publications. So, that’s what made me realize that, wow, I guess I am a really good writer in other niches besides just anthropology. And I do deserve to be paid well for the work that I do. And after that, I raised my rates, tripled them really, and basically never looked back.

05:05 Emily: I think that this advice is, one, good advice just for everybody, but two, something that academics or post-academics really need to hear, because we are kind of conditioned during graduate school to undervalue ourselves. And it takes really a lot of mental work–and for you a year and a half of actually working in your new field–to undo that conditioning, that mindset that’s been instilled in us. So, I think that it’s something that this audience really, really needs to hear. And I have found as I’ve been involved in academic entrepreneurship spaces, this is one of the top pieces of advice that we pass to one another, which is just raise your rates, raise your rates, raise your rates. I mean, we’re so conditioned. Yeah. We’re so conditioned not only to undervalue our time, undervalue our work, but also think that service is something that you have to do for your job, which I guess in academia, yes, you do have to, but outside of that, no, you should be paid for the value that you bring.

Courtney’s Course Covers Base Pay in Different Freelance Fields

06:09 Emily: So, anyway, it’s a wonderful, wonderful piece of advice. So, actually one thing I wanted to mention is, something I liked in your course is that you speak, of course your experience is in writing, but in the course, you cover a lot more than that, right? Freelancing is a lot more than just freelance writing. And so you talk about base pay rates that you can kind of expect in different fields. Right? I thought that was really that you just got the research jump-started a little bit for the people in the course.

06:40 Courtney: Yeah. You know, for me, I’m basically almost a hundred percent at this point, just a writer, but I actually have a lot of experience freelancing in other areas also, including doing editing and data science and different things. Because you can dip your nib in a lot of different freelance niches. And I also wanted to make the course really open to people who have different skill sets from what I have. Not everybody’s an anthropologist. They have different things, different skills that they bring from academia that they can earn good money from in freelancing also. And so, the course actually introduces several different popular niches, including writing and editing, translation, data science, consulting, sales, and marketing. So, you can kind of discover which one is the best fit for your current skills.

07:30 Emily: Yeah. I mean one of the fields you just mentioned, consulting, is always one that’s very attractive to me when I find other PhDs or graduate students who are consulting. One, because it’s a very broad in flexible kind of terms. So, a lot of people can be consultants in different ways, but also because it tends to command a nice high pay rate if you’re consulting in an area of expertise. I mean, you mentioned earlier that when you went into freelance writing, you were kind of moving away from anthropology. You were writing more about business. But you know, many other people who might be listening to this, they want to double down in their field of expertise. Right? And that’s how they can command those really high pay rates that you mentioned earlier.

08:07 Courtney: Absolutely.

Get Noticed as a Freelancer

08:07 Emily: Okay. So, let’s say you’ve convinced people, people are in your course, they’re going to go down this freelance route, whether it’s writing, consulting, some other field. What’s the best way for them to get started kind of hanging their shingle and letting people know I’m a freelancer now, you can hire me?

08:27 Courtney: Yeah. So, I think the first and most important thing is to build a website. Which, surprisingly to me, I know a lot of people in academia who were like, “Wow, you have your own website. That’s so cool. I wish I could do that.” And I’m like, “Well, you can. You can set up a website in one day. It’s not very difficult.” Yeah. So, building a website is the first and most important thing you can do to make yourself look like a professional freelancer. And that is another thing I discuss in my course. I take you through step by step, how to buy your domain hosting and set everything up, and what the important information you should put on your freelance website to make yourself look like a professional. So, that’s the first step.

09:02 Courtney: And then the next thing that you should do is use networking and cold pitching to get clients. Because there are a lot of freelance websites out there that you can get on where you can apply for jobs and stuff. And I’m not kicking that. I think that’s great also. And I do recommend that you do that, but you won’t get really high-paying clients from those kinds of gigs. You want to first start with networking. And even if you don’t have anybody, you can’t get any clients through your personal network. That’s fine. You can do it through cold pitching. And for me personally, over the years, the clients that I’ve had that have earned me hundreds of thousands of dollars are always the ones that I got through cold pitching. So, that’s what I recommend.

09:43 Emily: Yeah. You know, I actually went through a similar process. I don’t, I guess, identify as a freelancer, I identify as a business owner. But I went through a similar process when I started my business, which is how do I let people know that I’m available for speaking engagements and the other work that I was doing? And so I went through several years as I was building my network where I was cold emailing people. So, I know I don’t really love to be on the receiving end of most cold emails. And so I don’t love to send them either, but honestly, that was the necessary step in the overall process. So, I did a few years of a lot of cold emailing, built up my network, got some responses from that. And now I have basically stopped that. I kind of only do warm-emailing or cultivating my existing network at this point. So, I like that I’ve moved past that, but I feel like it was a really, really necessary start to the whole thing. My business would not have gotten off the ground if I hadn’t just been reaching out to people and trying to start establishing that network. So, it’s not necessarily pleasant, but it is necessary.

10:46 Courtney: It is necessary. And I always found it intimidating in the beginning, especially because you can send 50 emails and not get a response on a single one of them. That’s just the reality of cold pitching. But once you get that one gig and then it earns you a bunch of money, and then it’s like, “Oh, totally worth it.” And you feel motivated to do it more. And so, it can be intimidating. But that’s another thing that for the people who sign up for my course is that they have email support from me. And so, I will help them out with any questions they have. So, if they want to start cold emailing, but they’re not really sure where to start or what to say, they can ask me about that and I’ll give guidance based on the experience that I’ve had over the years.

How Freelancing Enhanced Courtney’s Life

11:28 Emily: That’s actually really nice. Because I know one of the sort of major challenges when you’re starting a business or starting a side income, like freelancing could be at first, is not really having colleagues who you can talk with about the work that you’re doing. And so, that’s just a really great sort of addition, in addition to the excellent content in your course, is also to be able to have interactions with you to get that support, again, as you’re building your network of your peers who are also freelancing or doing other kinds of work like that. So, I find that really valuable. I’ve been part of a couple of communities and I love just, you know, some people process things by talking to other people and they want some outside input, and you’re providing that. So, that’s super valuable. Now that we’ve gotten those excellent nuggets of advice from you, let’s talk a little bit about you and your story. I know you gave a quick overview at the start of the interview as to how you got into this, but why don’t you dive into a little bit more detail about what freelancing has done for you?

12:30 Courtney: Yeah, so, I flew through my bachelor’s degree and flew through my master’s holding my breath. I did that all really young and then I was starting my PhD. By the time I started my PhD, I was completely burnt out. It was just, I don’t need to explain how difficult academia is to anybody who’s listening to this podcast, but yeah, it was just too much for me and I needed a break. And the thing that I always loved about anthropology, the one thing that I love the most about it was being able to do field work. But field work was something that I was only ever able to do, if I was lucky, one or two months out of the year. And the rest of the year was spent in a windowless office doing research and data entry and stuff like that.

13:17 Courtney: And so, I wanted to just have the field work experience without the office experience. I just wanted to do something different. And so I was like, “Okay, I’m going to move to my field site. I love it there. I think it’s great. And I want to go live there. How can I do that? I don’t know.” And so, I actually ended up talking to my mom about it, who she actually works online. And she’s like, “Well, why don’t you start freelance writing? You don’t need to earn a lot of money in order to earn a living, especially if you’re in Africa. So, just give it a go.” And so, that’s what I did. I dropped out of my PhD program. I sold my car, used that to buy a plane ticket, and I left and I started freelancing here in Ethiopia and I’ve actually been here ever since.

13:59 Courtney: So, that has enhanced my life a lot because I get 12 months of sunshine, which is really important to me. And I love the environment and I love the culture and learning languages. And so that location-independence was really, really valuable to me for my mental health and just my personal happiness. And then the other thing that is always important is money. So, I earn very, very good money as a freelancer. I didn’t the first year and a half, as I mentioned before, but once I figured out that I was worth it, I started demanding it and asking for it. And I got it. And I continued to get it every time I raised my rates. People say, yes, somebody says yes. You know? And so, that’s really important, especially compared to academia, unfortunately. After the first two years of freelancing, I started earning more money than my former PhD advisor earns. And they’re a tenured professor. So, that’s something.

Location Independence and High Pay Rates

14:58 Emily: Yeah. I want to explore each of those points a little bit more because they’re both super attractive. The first one, the location-independence, you explained how that played out in your life. It enables you to move to the place that you want to live at one of your field sites and have sort of your whole life feel a little bit more like what you enjoyed the most about your academic experience. And of course, if someone else wants to do that and wants to make freelancing the way they make it happen, that’s awesome. I can think of some other benefits, which is, as you know, academic careers and PhD careers, you don’t have a lot of control over where you live, especially if you’re in academia. But even if you’re just a highly specialized professional, there are certain industries that are concentrated in certain cities, and so forth.

15:44 Emily: So, there may be reasons related to your PhD why you want to stay in a certain place, and this freelancing can follow you wherever you go. Side note, I as a, what’s called a trailing spouse–so we live where we live because my husband’s job is here and we anticipate moving because my husband may be changing jobs from time to time and he’s highly specialized–I get to take my business wherever I go. So, I don’t have to start over in a new job every time I might need to move. So, that’s a real, real benefit that I see that location-independence. And then of course on the money side, because this is a personal finance podcast. So, commanding the high pay rates, getting paid very well for your time.

16:26 Emily: Not just for people like you who are doing this full time, but as a side hustle. If that’s the way this starts, or that’s the way you want to keep this as you move forward in your freelancing career, as well as your academic or PhD-type career. It’s really nice when you can make a good amount of money for not that much time invested. As a PhD student, for example, you might be able to work, I don’t know, two hours a week, five hours a week, some pretty small number, but still get a really, really nice amount of money out of that small, small side hustle. And when you compare that, when you’re thinking about hourly rates to the other kinds of work that some PhDs do, or some people do when they’re still in graduate school or PhD training, it’s really nice, right?

17:10 Emily: To not have to work so many hours and also to have maybe a more like stimulating type of work, intellectually that is, yet something that is different probably from what you’re doing as your main day to day job, if this is still a side hustle. I think that’s really attractive in terms of having balance in your life. It’s awesome that you’ve been able to command these high pay rates and put together this full-time career, making a very nice income from Africa, from where you wanted to live. And I definitely want others to consider following your tracks.

17:44 Courtney: You were saying that this is like a full-time job for me, which it kind of is. But a lot of other people who listen to your podcast are people who are in academia to stay and they would like to have some additional stream of income to add on top of that. So, one point that I would like to make is that I actually do not work full-time. I work maybe 15 or 20 hours a week. But I actually still earn a full-time income because I get paid well. And this is something that I choose for my personal life because I have three foster kids and I homeschool them. And between that, and being a mom and, keeping my yard clean, I work 15, 20 hours a week on freelancing and that’s about it. And so you could do this as a part-time gig and still earn a lot of money. It doesn’t have to become like your full career. You don’t need to invest a hundred percent of your time in it. I don’t even invest a hundred percent of my time and I don’t even have another source of income. So, that’s something.

18:41 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for adding that. That’s awesome that you’re earning this like great, full-time income from part-time work. I actually also work part-time as well. I work about 25 hours a week and I’m quite happy with that balance actually. So, I really like that you added that point because the whole working 40 hours a week thing is so job-centric. That’s what our culture has decided–well, really not just 40, much more than 40 hours a week–is like the proper amount of time to be working. And once you start your own business, once you strike out on your own, all the rules are out the window, right? You can define what you want your work life to look like completely. And that goes both location and time and amount of money as we talked about earlier. So, I’m so glad that you added that. Thank you.

Endless Freelance Income: What to Expect

19:28 Emily: Let’s say someone is super excited about what we’ve been talking about. They want to start down their freelancing career in whatever field that might be in, and they want to sign up for your course, which again, they can do through pfforphds.com/freelance. And you can get the couple of bonuses that I created there. So, what can someone expect to find when they start your course?

19:49 Courtney: Okay. Well, first I guess I’ll explain who the course is for specifically. After I started freelancing, even in the first year or two I started freelancing, I got emails from people that I know. From people in my former cohort, professors that I know, people in grad school who heard, “Hey, I heard that you left academia and started freelancing. And I’d like to do something similar. Can you give me some advice?” And so, I’ve been giving advice to people for years. I get emails several, 10 or 15 times a year, I get an email from somebody, or I get a referral from somebody who’s in academia and they want to make the switch, or they want to add on to an additional stream of income through freelancing. And so, after years of basically kind of helping people just as like a side project, I decided to create a course to basically do what I was already doing, but do it in a more organized and formal way to help people.

Ch. 1: Intro to Freelance, Ch. 2: Identify Your Valuable Skills

20:47 Courtney: So, that’s what I created this course for. It’s called Endless Freelance Income, how to turn your liberal arts degree into an endless freelance income. However, even if your background is in science or any of the STEM areas, it can also be relevant to you. So, the course at the very beginning, it just introduces you to the online freelance world. So, if you don’t know the first thing about it, don’t worry. I will explain it to you in the course. That’s the first chapter. And then the next chapter, which I think is probably the most valuable one for people, is helping you identify what your most valuable and profitable skills are, from academia, that you can translate into freelance income. Through the mentoring there, I also kind of help people–people tend to overlook their skills. They think, “Oh, I guess I can write,” or like, “I guess I can do some data analysis, but I don’t have a degree in that. So, I’m not qualified to do that.” So, kind of just help people break that down. Imposter syndrome follows you outside of academia. I learned that the hard way. And so, just kind of help people to understand, no, these are valuable skills and you can utilize them.

22:08 Emily: What I liked about that portion of your course, what I noticed there is that you have worksheets in here, right? So, it’s not just like, I’m just reading all this material. It’s a very engaging format, right? So, you’re giving people some little tools they can use to do things like brainstorm about their own skillsets, which I totally agree with what you said. We tend to discount our own skills or our own areas of expertise unless we have a degree in it. That’s very important to us in academics that we have a degree in XYZ. But I know, personally, like my field is now personal finance and I don’t have a degree in personal finance and that’s okay. I’m still confident at this point that I am an expert in this area because of my long experience. But I think that for people who aren’t quite there yet, it is a little difficult of a hurdle to overcome. So, your course definitely helps with that.

22:55 Courtney: Yeah. And you know, same story for me, I’m an anthropologist, but I write in marketing topics, marketing and entrepreneurship. And I am an expert because I became one. And that’s it. And so, you can do it, too. That’s basically what the course helps you to figure out. So, once you’ve kind of broken down and pulled your skills out, then the next chapter teaches you about several different major freelance niches that you can get into. And I already mentioned before, there’s writing, editing translation, administrative support, design and creative, customer service, consulting, data science analysis, and sales and marketing are the ones that I go through. So, those are the main ones. And then it walks you through how you can look at your current skills and line them up with what each of these niches demand, or what they need.

How to Look Professional as a Freelancer

23:46 Courtney: And then it also helps you think about which one’s most interesting to you too. Because it’s not just about your skills, it’s also about what you want to do, right? And then you can choose your niche. And then after that, the course goes through how to make yourself look professional as a freelancer. One thing that I discovered when I left academia is that I needed to tone down my CV. What’s professional in academia and what’s professional in the online business world are very different. And so I kind of teach people how to make yourself look professional online as opposed to professional as a 10-page CV, or something like that. So, that’s the next step. And then the next thing after that is teaching you how to research your niche so that you can figure out what the going rates are in your niche, the going rates for somebody with your skill level, and just kind of also to weed through the riffraff.

24:47 Courtney: Because a lot of people out there, you know, they say $10 an hour or something like that. Yeah. You don’t need to pay attention to those people. So, to figure out how much you should be charging in the beginning. And then after that, the course takes you through step by step how to create your website, which I mentioned before. And then it walks you through what you need to do to land your first client. And that is the course in a nutshell, as it is right now. I plan to add onto it. Like I said before, I think cold pitching is important. So, one thing I plan to add on to it in the future is more information about walking people through how to set up a cold pitching scheme. And so, that’s something I plan to add onto it in the future. And the good news is that if you have access to the course, you buy it now, you’ll have access to all that future material as it comes up.

Bonus Content from Emily

25:34 Emily: That sounds awesome. As I said earlier, I read through the course prior to this interview, and it really breaks things down and simplifies them and doesn’t make it seem so intimidating to start down this path of freelancing. You really don’t over complexify anything. It’s very simple steps to follow, to get started. So, I wanted to mention for my audience, if you choose to buy Courtney’s course through my affiliate link again, pfforphds.com/freelance, I’ve created a couple of extra bonuses for you. So, one that everyone will receive who buys through my link is a free video training on how to budget with an irregular income, right? So, like I’m really confident, you go through Courtney’s course, you’re committed to this. Like you’re going to be starting down that path of having freelance income.

26:18 Emily: And you know, that’s a really great thing, but it can also pose some budgeting challenges. So, I’ve created a training that you’ll get for free when you buy the course on how to manage that. Like manage your finances when you have a side income stream that’s irregular, maybe growing into a full-sized income stream over time. So, it’ll help you with that. And then for the first five people who buy the course, so not everyone, but just the first five, I’m going to offer a free 20-minute financial coaching session. So, what I think will be really great about this is if you schedule this for maybe like two months out from when you start taking the course, it’ll be a nice little accountability point to meet with me at that time and say, “Okay, Emily, here’s the income stream. I’ve established it. I got my first invoice over here. I’ve gotten paid for the first time.” And so we can talk more about what you want to do with that money. How it’s going to help you reach your goals. How it’s going to fit into your budget. Do you want to be paying debt? Do you want to be investing it? So, we can talk about all that kind of stuff. So, that’s how I recommend you use that bonus if you’re one of the first five to sign up is schedule it a little ways out. So you actually have that income stream established by the time we meet together. And I’ll certainly be asking you, have you been implementing everything from the course? So again, pfforphds.com/freelance is where you can sign up and of course link through to find out more about the course from Courtney.

Best Financial Advice for Early-Career Academics

27:38 Emily: So, Courtney, we’ve come to the end of the interview. Thank you so much for what you’ve shared with the audience today. I think it’s been excellent advice and thank you for telling us more about Endless Freelance Income. So, final question that I ask all my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early career academic or maybe recovering academic like you?

28:00 Courtney: My best advice would be don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Something my dad told me when I was 17 years old and I didn’t know what it meant at the time, but now I do. So, even if you’ve got your dream job, even if you’ve gotten that research position or that tenure track job or whatever, you never know what’s going to happen in the future. That’s something we’ve learned this year in 2020, I think. And so, having an additional stream of income is really valuable. And I know that’s what Emily talks about all the time on her blog. And the thing about freelancing is that there’s no risk in starting and giving it a try. And you can just work on it in your spare time and you can build it up over time in whatever time you have. And if you don’t have time to work on it, you don’t have time to work on it. And it doesn’t hurt you to work on this and build up this extra stream of income. You don’t have to be like me where you leave your job and leave your country and change your whole career. I think that all academics should be doing something on the side, some kind of freelancing, blogging, something. So, that’s my advice.

29:06 Emily: Yeah. I totally agree. You know, not all the eggs in one basket can apply it to a lot of different areas, but certainly when it comes to your income, having a job or even being in graduate school means you’re dependent on another institution to decide to continue to give you work. But the advantage of freelancing is that you spread that around to a lot of different clients and it’s much less risk. Yeah, one client drops off, no big deal. You can supplement that by hustling up a few new clients. But if your employer decides they don’t want to work with you anymore, that’s kind of a devastating like life thing. So, excellent, excellent advice. What I also like about what you said is that if you do the work, for instance, by going through your course. If you do the work to establish yourself as a freelancer, and you devote even something like an hour a week to it, like I mentioned earlier. As long as that income stream is established and in a field like freelancing, it’s something that you can decide to turn up or turn down as you need in your own life.

30:00 Emily: So, for example, if you have an unfunded summer, you know, some people–again, you mentioned 2020–some people in 2020 have late in the game discovered that they don’t have summer funding in the way that they thought they would. Yes. Their funding will pick up again in the fall. It’s not like they’re going to drop out of graduate school and get a full-time job or whatever. But for a few months, the income that they thought was secure is not there. So, once the situation is upon you, it’s very difficult to scramble and kind of fix it. But if you’ve already established that one hour per week freelancing job, then that’s something you can ramp up or ramp down as your life allows, as your money situation requires. So, I just think that’s a real advantage to establishing yourself. Even if you’re not going to do it, like you just said, 15 hours a week to make the equivalent of a full-time income. So, great, great advice. Courtney, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It was a real pleasure to talk with you again.

30:54 Courtney: Thanks so much, Emily. Thank you.

Outtro

30:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Qualify for a Mortgage as a Graduate Student or PhD, Even with Non-W-2 Fellowship Income

April 27, 2020 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews her brother, Sam Hogan, a mortgage originator with Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at USA Mortgage) who specializes in PhDs and PhD students, particularly those receiving fellowship income. Sam relays what it takes to qualify for a mortgage in terms of credit score, income, and debt load, including the special way deferred student loans play into the calculation. He details the unusual strategies he has learned over the past year of working with PhD clients to help them get approved for mortgages, even with non-W-2 fellowship income. At the end of the interview, Sam shares why he loves working with PhD home buyers. Over the past year, Personal Finance for PhDs has referred so much business to Sam that he has become an advertiser on the podcast.

Links Mentioned

Contact Sam Hogan via phone: (540) 478-5803; or email: [email protected]
Listen to a previous episode with Sam Hogan: Purchasing a Home as a Graduate Student with Fellowship Income
Related episode: “This Grad Student Defrayed His Housing Costs By Renting Rooms to His Peers”
Personal Finance for PhDs: Financial Coaching
Personal Finance for PhDs: Podcast Hub
Personal Finance for PhDs: Subscribe to the mailing list

Teaser

00:00 Sam: It’s always best for a PhD student to be as proactive as possible. I’ve seen letters with three years of continuance, but they’ve reached out to me after one semester has passed. Now they only have two and a half years of continuance, where someone, if they had reached out a year earlier about their future, and how they’re planning to purchase home when they were in a new area, that is the perfect slam dunk way to do it.

Introduction

0:33 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 5, Episode 17. And today, my guest is Sam Hogan, a mortgage originator with Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage) who specializes in PhDs and PhD students, particularly those receiving fellowship income. Sam relays what it takes to qualify for a mortgage in terms of credit score, and debt load, including the special way deferred student loans play into the calculation. Sam details the unusual strategies he has learned over the past year of working with PhD clients to help them get approved for mortgages, even with non-W-2 fellowship income. At the end of the interview, Sam shares why he loves working with PhD home-buyers. Over the past year, Personal Finance for PhDs has referred so much business to Sam that he has become an advertiser on the podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with my brother Sam Hogan.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:34 Emily: I’m welcoming back to the podcast today. My brother Sam Hogan, who is mortgage originator. He sells mortgages. And Sam was actually on the podcast before in Season Two, Episode Five. It was while we’re recording this on April 12, 2020 and he was last on about a year ago. At that time, we were talking about how someone with fellowship income can actually get a mortgage — non-W-2 fellowship income because tis is a tricky thing that we talked about in that episode. So now, as I said, it’s been a year since that time, Sam’s handled a lot more mortgages of this type and so he knows a lot more about this process now. So I thought we’d have him back on for an update, basically, and a little more background on getting a mortgage as a graduate student or postdoc or PhD. So, Sam, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming back on. Will you please just tell the listeners a couple words about yourself?

02:28 Sam: Thank you for having me, Emily, and Happy Easter from the east coast. Yeah, I’ve been working with PhD students now pretty heavily over the last 12 months. The company I work for, Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage), is licensed in all 50 states. I’ve had the opportunity to read, review, approve, sometimes deny, these special candidates while they’re looking for their options for home-ownership.

[Sam’s Nationwide Mortgage Licensing System and Registry number: 1491786]

Basics for First Time Home-Buyers

02:52 Emily: Thinking about someone who is probably probably a first time home-buyer doesn’t necessarily know a whole lot about the process of getting a mortgage, and of course is concerned maybe about their their income, and are they really going to qualify and all these factors — what are the factors that go into a mortgage application? And what are the the ranges, that would be acceptable for those different factors?

03:16 Sam: Okay, so generally speaking, we’re looking at a risk profile and the ability to repay. For the borrower, having a over 700 credit scores for conventional, now about over 640 or 660 for FHA loans.

Different Types of Home Loans

03:32 Emily: Okay, you just dropped the terms conventional and FHA — what’s the difference between those two?

03:37 Sam: Yeah, so FHA is your original first time homebuyer program. It’s backed by the government and it’s designed for everyone to qualify for it, if you have decent credit and decent income. Conventional is preferred because it’s going to have a lower monthly payment, and the private mortgage insurance will drop off automatically. You should have over 680 or higher credit scores to go conventional and the income ratios are a little tighter. So it’s the better loan to qualify for and it has better terms throughout the whole 30 years, or whatever your loan term is.

04:16 Emily: Okay, so FHA is a little bit easier to qualify for, because it’s sort of designed for first time home-buyers, but it’s a less preferable loan in the long term. And so if I remember correctly, a lot of people who have FHA loans for a while they then end up refinancing to a conventional type of loan a little bit later on, to get rid of that private mortgage insurance.

04:38 Sam: That is correct.

04:39 Emily: Okay, great. Okay, so going back to the the lending standards you just mentioned, like credit scores, what else goes into an application package?

04:49 Sam: Yeah, I want to just touch on our current world situation and the lending standards are changing right now. And they’re changing because everyone is in the same boat regarding a possible change or disruption in income, slowing income for a certain amount of time, so be sure to talk with an expert and their specific requirements because this will change from bank to mortgage company to a larger credit union or financial institution. These are uncertain times, so you’re going to have some fluctuation and differences from lender to lender, but you want to work just as we said before, you want to work with someone who’s keeping you in mind and your goals in mind.

How Credit Scores and Debt Impact Home Loans

05:32 Emily: Yeah, okay, great. I totally agree and we should re-emphasize that like we’re recording this in mid April, things could be different by the time we publish it, things could be different a couple months down the line, so definitely just talk with someone right away. You mentioned credit scores, but I know also, your income, of course, plays into how much of a mortgage you can qualify for. Can you talk about that a little bit?

05:53 Sam: The common rule of thumb is people will qualify for four to five times their annual income. Now that will depend also on how much debt they’re carrying, and how much they’re putting from their savings into downpayment. But that’s a pretty safe estimate. Some people who are completely debt free will qualify six times their annual income, up to. Something else lenders experience a lot is, um, people doing their own due diligence and crunching the numbers, but we have systems and practices that do this quickly, more accurately, and can give you better results, so I would say talk with someone early and have them do the work. And then after you get their feedback, run your numbers to double check and maybe have some questions for them. We want to be able to work for you, and there’s no obligation to just have a few conversations and have someone explore your options.

06:48 Emily: Yeah, that sounds good. How does that play into that because I know a lot of PhD students do have significant debt loads from maybe undergrad or a master’s degree or something like that. How does debt affect the package?

07:03 Sam: Debt is not bad. It’s good to have things on your credit that have positive history, whether that’s a student loan you’ve paid off or currently paying off, revolving credit cards. You will run into issues, if you have absolutely no debt or debt history. I strongly recommend everyone, even against their pride, get a credit card. Don’t exploit it but use it regularly, pay off regularly. You want to have established credit, especially for a young homebuyer, because they might not have the 10 or 15 years of other types or forms of debt that someone who’s in their 30s or 40s might have.

07:49 Emily: Yeah, I definitely agree with establishing a credit score and having a strong credit history. But I’m just wondering, you mentioned earlier about the size of the mortgage and how debt can affect that. Solet’s say there’s someone who’s holding a good amount of debt. Does that affect like the ratio of the amount of mortgage they can take out?

08:06 Sam: Absolutely. Let me put it in some simpler numbers. If you’re bringing in $3,000 a month, all your credit cards, new house payment, maybe your car payment or gym membership, all that cannot add up to more than $1500 dollars of your income, We take your gross income and if you’re over 50% of that debt ratio, that’s a “Hey, better luck next time.” Even better situation is to be under 43%. Under 43% of your monthly income to debt ratio, is what Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae require, currently. Now this could be used to change, sometimes annually, sometimes quicker than that, but under 43% and better is a very good place to be in.

08:55 Emily: That makes sense. Yeah, so the total amount of debt payments you can have per month is limited and the mortgage has to fit in. To be approved for a mortgage, it has to kind of fit in around those other debt obligations that you already have.

09:09 Sam: Correct.

09:09 Emily: Okay, yeah, that definitely gives us something to kind of get our hands around when someone’s deciding, like, is it even worthwhile for me to approach Sam or another lender about possibly applying for a mortgage? I know you said earlier, just ask, that’s the best thing to do, because you guys can run the numbers better than than we can outside of the industry. I had one more question about student loans, because while student loans are in deferment, how does that play into that 43% that you just said. Because if they don’t make payments, does that just like not count at all? Or how does that work?

09:43 Sam: This a very specific guideline detail that changes, just letting you know Emily, and for conventional loans, and FHA loans, it’s both different. A rule of thumb: if your student loans are in deferment, you have to take the remaining balances and calculate 1% of that, and we factor that into your debt to income ratio. So if you have $100,000 in student debt, and we’re about to calculate a potential thousand dollar payment, even though you’re not making payments on them, that could stop your deal. Okay, so brings me back to letting an expert look at it.

10:19 Sam: Also, sometimes when the lender pulls credit, the way the credit populates, it looks like they’re making payments on their student loans. But really, they’re in deferment, so all those payments have to be switched. This is why when people run the numbers themselves, they might think, “Oh, no, I can’t do it.” But lenders know what it takes to get it approved. And I did want to touch back on the debt to income, it’s best for people to know first that you want to be under 43%. If that’s 42.98%, that’s still two thumbs up. But as soon as you’re over the 43%, some of the loan terms can change and make it stricter for you to buy.

10:56 Emily: Gotcha. And I also want to emphasize that just because you qualify for a mortgage of a certain size, or just because your debt-to-income ratio fits onto that 42% or whatever, that doesn’t mean you have to buy a house that that’s expensive. So these standards are for the lending industry, they’re not necessarily the advisable thing on the personal finance side. So just keep that in mind. We’re talking about basically how to qualify, not whether this is a good idea for your finances overall to have that high of a, an amount of debt per month. I just want to add that in there from the personal finance side.

What If You Don’t Have a Typical Situation?

11:33 Emily: Okay, Sam, so thanks for running down those broad strokes criteria. If someone doesn’t meet one of these, is there any recourse? Is there anything else that can be done if they still want to go through with a purchase?

11:47 Sam: Don’t give up lenders in general, we’re in the process of approving loans. We’re not in the business of denying people we would be out of business. So try and try again, I would say, because I have had PhDs students who have finalized their transactions with me been denied by two other lenders. The tip I can give to some of these people exploring their options is be willing to over document things for any uncertainty the lender might have. If there’s some variables in your income, explain to them that “Hey, this is all under the same advisor. I’m working in different areas, different years, but it’s under the direct supervision of x and he can provide you a letter saying that I’m here for five years under his supervision and it’s common for students in my place to continue to receive their funding. Please let me know if you need any other confirmation from my supervisor.” But yeah, recourse I would just validate how good of a borrower you are: I have great credit. I have the downpayment. I have guaranteed funding.

12:52 Sam: And you always can strengthen a file with obviously a cosigner. You can have a non occupant co bar family member, even a friend, who also is hopefully in good credit standing and has income to cosign on the loan for you. That’s not a forever thing, you can refinance them off the loan. But what I’ve found out in my years in this business is, there’s always a way to make it work if you keep working at it. Some people run out of options, and while they’re in school, it’s a funky time in their life, but that doesn’t mean that you’re not going to be a homeowner in a year or two years.

13:33 Emily: Yeah, gotcha. I actually was thinking specifically about co-borrowers because that was another example that we had on the podcast. My interview with Matt Hotze, he bought a home in Durham, North Carolina when he was at Duke and he bought his first year there and he had his parents, or maybe one of his parents, as his co signers and that enabled him, because his income was, low — one graduate student stipend. He was able to get into a larger house than he would have qualified for on his own. He actually had a three bedroom house. And then he rented out two of the bedrooms. So he was able to house hack, had no problem paying the mortgage because he had reliable renters. And yeah, it all worked out really well for him. So he just needed that little bit of help at the beginning. His parents, very fortunately, were able to provide that to him, and it was kind of a rosy story after that point, but that’s what he had to do to qualify for the mortgage.

14:27 Sam: A cosigner, sometimes can solve everything, except for poor credit. But strength in numbers. You can have up to four people on conventional loan application. Have I done that ever? No. But is it possible? Yes. So yeah, I mean, if you’re having some difficulty, your loan officer, if you’re brainstorming with them, one of their first solutions is have a cosigner. A cosigner is a very simple fix. If you have to pivot your approval because you have gone through the process, you didn’t get approved on your own and your adding a cosigner on your contract, I would say give your lender about 10 days and you should be in good shape.

15:08 Emily: Gotcha. I’ll add in one more time. This is the “how to qualify for a mortgage” talk, not “is it a good idea to be a cosigner or to have a cosigner”. Totally separate conversation.

15:19 Sam: A client of mine that’s closing this month who listened to your podcast…I don’t want to reveal too much about his purchase, but we’ve been given the approval and at the start, we ran the numbers a few different ways. He was like “With a cosigner, what’s my payment? Without a cosigner how much is my cash to close?” And we were on the fence for a little bit but we were still in the process. So while he was under contract, I was still able to give him scenarios and options. We eventually decided with his deposits and everything that was already being credited, his cash to close was low enough that he wouldn’t need to have a cosigner. So it’s not set in stone at the start. Yes, it’s always better to have your ducks in a row. But the lender is flexible. We always can pivot for the buyers needs. And I also say that in the buyers defense. If something’s going wrong with the house, the lender can help you get out of the loan on your finance contingency, maybe if your home inspection is past. So there’s different ways we’re always here willing to help.

16:25 Emily: Yeah, that sounds really good.

Commercial

16:30 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

Tips for Home Loans with Non-W-2 Income

17:15 Emily: Okay, so let’s narrow down to the the scenario that we talked about the last time we did an interview, which is about a graduate student or postdoc with fellowship income, with non-W-2 income, and that a lot of lenders don’t understand how to deal with that. You’ve been working with these types of clients quite a bit over the last year. And so you have really figured out some things that how to make these loans work in some cases and what will not work in other cases and maybe in those cases, a co-borrower or something like that would be needed. Can you just tell me a little bit about, you know, this particular weirdness of non-W-2 fellowship income and how you make it work?

17:54 Sam: It’s definitely a tricky income. How I help make it work is I support all the variables within the fellowship income. I show that it’s the same field of study or field of work that they previously in. Especially in the offer letters, they usually always contain a phrase if the student remains in good standing, and the underwriter can say, well, that’s too much of a variable, we can’t accept this income because there’s too many variables. Well, I say well look at her transcripts, look at his transcripts. They’ve always been in good standing, literally forever. That’s why they were one of five students selected out of 400 applicants to get into this program. Yeah, it takes a little bit of storytelling, and the presentation is important, so it’s okay if someone who doesn’t have W-2 income, we treat other incomes just as fairly, but you have to know how to present it, how to over-document it, and if it’s too uncertain at the start, most lenders have a scenario desk you can reach out to who will give you some early feedback without going completely through the application process, completely through the loan process, and still having a little bit of a question mark about if you’re really approved. I’ve had our scenario desk, give me pushback on certain files, and I just asked, How can I support that variation or the uncertainty that you’re seeing in this letter because I can provide what you’re looking for most likely, I just need to know what that is.

19:38 Emily: Yeah. So I think if I can kind of zoom out from that a little bit. First of all, one of the things that you talked about in the last interview was that non-W-2 fellowship income is not going to qualify for an FHA loan. It’s just completely off the table. It’s only going to be a conventional loan. And what you’re talking about now is saying, okay, you know, PhD student or postdoc, you’re showing me your offer letter and you are looking for certain things that offer letter, like the income and also the number of years of guarantee, sometimes that’s in there as well. And then you’re saying, Okay, well for all the things in the offer letter that are maybe a question mark to the underwriter, you have now learned how to recognize some of those things, and you can start providing additional supportive documentation, that is asking the student or postdoc, okay, well send me your transcripts. Okay, well send me whatever it is, your work history. I don’t know what those things are. Can you talk a little bit about that guarantee? Because I know the guarantee is a very important factor when we’re talking about non-W-2 income.

Loan Types for Non-W-2 Income

20:41 Sam: Yes. So I want to answer your questions in the right order. One of the main critical points for this type of income is that it’s not recognized by the VA, Veterans Administration, FHA. It’s not recognized by USDA, and it’s not recognized by Fannie Mae. Your most successful application and loan approval is going to come from a Freddie Mac conventional loan, okay. Now you can do as little as 3% down for that conventional loan. But this is the key point that only Freddie Mac recognizes this income, per the lenders approval. Why these PhD students are not going to approved their first attempt with their lender is because it’s per the lenders approval, the lender can’t document it and approve it with their underwriter, then Freddie Mac will not take the loan.

21:40 Emily: So what you’re just saying there is that you now know having worked this type of income, this mortgage type is off the table. This mortgage type is off the table. This is the one that is potentially successful. And what you have to do is get your underwriters that you work with to approve that loan and then Freddie Mac will take it on, will approved it. What you have figured out is these little tricks and document support and so forth that need to happen for the underwriters that you work with, which presumably would be the same elsewhere, except they’re not necessarily as knowledgeable about this particular type of income.

The Importance of Offer Letters for Non-W-2 Income

22:15 Emily: Let’s talk more about that. I know that you’ve mentioned to me before, I think you mentioned in the last interview, that for this non-W-2 income, normally underwriters, lenders for W-2 income, they presume it’s going to continue for at least a while, even though we all know you can lose a job at any point. But for the fellowship income, they for some reason, don’t presume that it’s going to continue and they want to see a certain length of guaranteed fellowship time.

22:41 Sam: Yes. For conventional loans, we’re looking for three years of continuance of income. Now, I know it’s not fair because my job doesn’t guarantee me three years of employment in the future. That’s not the typical contract for all employment, its employment will usually. For conventional loans we want to see three years. I actually have a example that I’ve written up. It’s a mix of a few different approval letters that worked, that I had some success with clients in the past year. And I will say briefly that if your approval letter is more than three pages, there might be too many variables in your offer to get an approval.

23:36 Emily: You’re saying an offer letter, like the offer letter you get when you start grad school or start a postdoc position. This is going to be your stipend this along goes on for. This is a typical document, like instead of having a Form W-2, this is what a fellowship recipient would send to you. They would send you their offer letter and so what are you looking at in that offer letter that is like yeah, this is going to go forward or no, this might be a problem.

24:00 Sam: Yes, so what we’re looking for is the continuance of income, we want to have three years. We want it to state that you’re being provided health insurance, because that’s a really good sign shown you’re actually an employee, you’re not just a student. It’s okay for it to have a few variables in it, like remaining in good standing or making satisfactory progress towards their doctoral degree. That’s a good phrase in there, that’s fine. But when you have layers and layers of variables, like you know, making satisfactory progress towards our doctorate, you must take these courses or get this exact GPA or higher in these courses, must have approval from their supervisor for a continuance into a fifth year. Those are things I’ve had to get more information on because the more variables, the more uncertainty it makes the underwriter feel. And so that’s where it comes back to the presentation of the loan.

An Example of An Offer Letter

24:58 Sam: “I’m pleased to inform that you been awarded a fellowship in the first academic year beginning September 2019. In subsequent years, you’ll be supported by research and teaching assistantship. This Fellowship Award gives you deserved recognition for your accomplishments to date, as well as added independence to stipend and exploring your research interests for the first year. For the academic year 19-20, the stipend will be $3,345 for nine months. For Summer 2020, the stipend will be $3,475 for three months. This means you receive an annual stipend of $40,530. In addition, the award pays your tuition health insurance and health services fee. We are committed to continue this financial support for for up to five years, as long as you remain a PhD student in good academic standing.

25:51 Emily: Yeah, so what I’m hearing and I think what the listeners will hear is, that’s first year fellowship followed by W-2 income for the remainder, four years guaranteed.

26:02 Sam: Right.

26:03 Emily: That’s great. So that means in your world, that person would qualify for a mortgage during that first year, even though it’s fellowship, because their letter says, Yeah, it’s one year of fellowship, but you’re going to have after that this W-2 type income,

26:17 Sam: Correct. The most success I’ve seen with the PhD community are the simple letters that are less than two pages with little variable, that will show more than three years of continuance. And that’s a very simple approval for us.

26:35 Emily: And that’s whether that is fellowship income, or W-2 or a combination. If that’s what the offer letter says three years or more. That’s straightforward for you.

26:46 Sam: Correct. And that is where I’ve seen the most success with these doctoral candidates.

26:53 Emily: But still going back to your earlier point of if that’s not what a particular individuals letter looks like, still reach out to you, or another lender, because maybe with enough supplementary documentation, it could still go through, but it’s just going to be a little bit more of a process.

27:09 Sam: Correct. And, I mean, when I get connected with some of these department supervisors, I let them know, “Hey, this is what we’re looking for. Can you simplify this offer ladder for me, because we’re looking for something a little less complicated?” And I do like to tell my PhD applicants that, “Hey, I would love a shortened version of your personal statement. I want to be able to know a little bit more about where you’ve been, where you’re going.” And it always helps to tell a little bit of a story.

27:40 Emily: That is really interesting. That adds a little more detail to what you said earlier about the story and the presentation being what matters. That’s really interesting to me that you that you might include something like a version of a personal statement in this package that goes to the underwriter, that’s really interesting.

27:59 Sam: At the end of the day, I know I said this in the last episode, the last time I chirped in, but it does come down to one person’s decision. If the underwriter is comfortable, they’re going to approve you. If they’re not comfortable, they’re gonna want more documentation, or a cosigner, or something else to make it, you know, aboveboard.

28:20 Emily: Yeah, that clarifies. Thank you.

Final Words of Advice

28:23 Emily: Sam, is there anything else that you’ve learned about this fellowship type income that would be helpful to the listeners, with respect to getting approved for a mortgage?

28:32 Sam: I’ve learned that working with the PhD community are some of the best clients I’ve ever had.

28:38 Emily: Yeah, you’ve told me that before, and I really love to hear it!

28:42 Sam: Yeah. It’s really nice to work with people who are planning. It’s always best for a PhD student to be as proactive as possible. I’ve seen letters with three years of continuance, but they’ve reached out to me after one semester has passed, so now they only have two and a half years of continuanc, and that is a big problem. Whereas someone, if they have reached out a year earlier about their future, and how they’re planning to purchase a home when they were in a new area, that is the perfect slam dunk way to do it. Unfortunately, I’ve had to let some PhD students know that it’s not going to work out because their continuance, they’re under three years. And that’s going to be one of the major roadblocks. So talk to someone early, tell them you’re interested in a Freddie Mac, conventional loan. If they can find the right way to document their income and approve them. It’s happened more often in the last two months, I would say, with clients reaching out at this time of the year, when, if I had been talking to them six months ago, I could have had them approved.

29:52 Emily: Yeah, so actually at this time of the year, April 15 is decision day. Everyone has to decide what grad school they’re going to, or they’re supposed to decide. So if a PhD student is looking at that fellowship income in their offer letter, it says three years, they need to reach out to you sooner rather than later before that clock starts ticking, if they’re interested in purchasing within that first few months or first year or whatever, of being in graduate school. They need to reach out earlier. Thank you for saying that.

How To Reach Sam Hogan

30:21 Emily: Sam, you have not been particularly self promotional during this interview, and I appreciate that but I do want to say that you have been working with this type of client — people receiving fellowship income, also other types of PhD clients over the past year. I think you’re working really hard for them and that they should go to you, at least among getting a few different voices in their life, they should come to you. So will you please tell them the best way to contact you?

30:46 Sam: The best way to reach me is definitely by cell phone. Text is preferred right now because there’s a lot of volume going through the industry. My cell phone number is (540) 478-5803. And then my work email is a great line of communication, also. It’s [email protected].

31:15 Emily: Yeah. And we’ll have all that contact information in the show notes, as well. Sam just mentioned, I was surprised to learn, but even during this social distancing period, the mortgage industry is hopping, because interest rates are so low. People are really refinancing a lot right now, even if they’re not doing necessarily new purchases at the moment or not going into that process at the moment. But, you know, maybe in a few months or a year, whatever things will return to a more normal time and you’ll be able to move forward with lots more purchases.

31:47 Emily: Sam, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. And thank you so much for working with this population and being willing to, as a personal favor to me, to investigate this and take this on. I think it’s really fruitful and it’s been really great for my audience, so I really appreciate you

32:00 Sam: Thank you for having me on Emily. Always a pleasure to work with you and the PhD community. I’m just here to help, so if you need help text me, call me bother me on the weekend. It’s all good. I just want to make sure you all are seeing some success here while you’re getting your doctorates.

32:16 Emily: Excellent. Thank you, Sam.

Outtro

32:18 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.