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How to Curb Your Impulse to Keep Up with the Joneses

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Joy Lere, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant on the danger of “keeping up with the Joneses.” Joy explains how emotionally unsatisfying and financially damaging trying to keep up with the Joneses is and that contentment can only come from within yourself. PhDs anticipating future income jumps would do well to put off lifestyle inflation for a least a few years after their salaries increase, which will give them more career and lifestyle choices in the future.

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Links Mentioned in This Episode

keep up with the Joneses

Teaser

00:00 Joy: If you can understand that this idea of peer comparison, it is going to be ever-present, and it’s not so much that the environment or the people around you need to change. What needs to flip is the script in your mind, in terms of the mentality you have when looking to the people in your life.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 12, and today my guest is Dr. Joy Lere, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant. Our topic is the danger of keeping up with the Joneses. Joy explains how emotionally unsatisfying, and financially damaging, trying to keep up with the Joneses is, and that contentment can only come from within yourself. PhDs anticipating future income jumps would do well to put off lifestyle inflation for at least a few years after their salaries increase, which will give them more career and lifestyle choices in the future. This interview really hit home for me, as I reflected on my post-PhD life and finances and where my family is headed next. As you might have garnered from listening to previous episodes of this podcast, I had a pretty good handle on my finances by the end of grad school.

01:30 Emily: And I was truly satisfied with my lifestyle. I had defeated my Joneses. Or so I thought. Then, my husband and I moved to Seattle. We rented a relatively inexpensive apartment in a wealthy neighborhood. There’s a lot of tech money in Seattle, as I’m sure you know. Suddenly, I wasn’t comparing my lifestyle to that of other graduate students in a medium cost-of-living city, but to other full-fledged adults in a high cost-of-living city. I distinctly remember my first and hardest-hitting Jones moment in Seattle. Shortly after we had our first child, I joined a mother support group in my neighborhood. Our first meeting was in the home of our group leader, and each participant would rotate hosting subsequent meetings. I remember walking into our group leader’s house, which was gigantic, gorgeous, and immaculate. It was somewhat shocking to me. Plus, during the meeting, our group leader casually mentioned she was in the process of custom building another house in our neighborhood to move to the next year.

02:33 Emily: My heart sank, knowing that I would eventually host these mothers and babies in my small, dingy, undecorated apartment. That cheap apartment had been a strategic financial choice upon our move. We were following the advice to live like a grad student so that we could keep our retirement savings rate high while I got my business off the ground and we adjusted to parenthood. Even though we had good reasons for living in that apartment, those reasons paled for me, when I saw where and how my group leader lived. And I started questioning all our choices. That was my first big post-PhD Jones moment. I got past that feeling, kind of, eventually, for that situation, but now my husband and I are in the early stages of searching for our very first home to purchase. And I can sense myself starting to become aware again of the Joneses. Since buying a house in Southern California is such a big, expensive decision, I know I have to be really conscious about those feelings and influences. That’s why the subject of this interview was so timely for me. I hope it will be for you as well. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Joy Lere.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:50 Emily: I am just delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Dr. Joy Lere. She is a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant, such an interesting combination. So, I’m really happy to have her on the podcast today. We’re actually going to be talking about keeping up with the Joneses. Or rather, how not to keep up with the Joneses. So, Joy, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

04:11 Joy: Absolutely. It is a joy and a privilege to be here with you today. My name is Joy Lere. I am a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant. So, essentially I am someone who as a clinician works where Freud meets finance. So, I live and work outside of Napa, California, and I’ve a telemedicine practice where I see patients for psychotherapy. And I also work in specializing in consultation within the finance industry. So within that role, I’m providing support, training, education, coaching, and psychotherapy also to financial planners and financial advisors, because there are a lot of really exciting things happening within the industry where there’s more and more attention being given to the fact that people’s relationship with their money is not just a matter of math or economic theory. Money itself is emotional currency. So, having an understanding of human psychology and how that drives financial decisions is really starting to be integrated more and more into the world of finance.

05:33 Emily: Yes. Thank you so much for that description. Yes, of course, I have observed this trend as well. And I’m really excited to have you on. Actually, I did an interview some time ago with Dr. Daniel Crosby. So, we’ll link that from the show notes as well, since that was on a similar topic.

05:47 Joy: He is a good friend and just, he’s fabulous.

Tell Us a Little More About Your Education

05:52 Emily: Oh yeah, it was a wonderful conversation. Would you also tell us a little bit more about your education, because you’ve spent some time in academia as well?

05:58 Joy: Yes. So, I obtained my master’s degree while living abroad in the UK for a couple of years. And I decided after that experience and after starting my clinical work in England, that I wasn’t quite yet ready to be done with school. So, my husband is in the military. We made our way back across the pond. And then I went to graduate school at George Washington University and obtained my doctorate in clinical psychology while I was there.

Can You Define “Keeping Up with the Joneses”?

06:33 Emily: Yeah. Wonderful. Okay. So, our topic for today, keeping up with the Joneses. Probably a phrase that maybe everyone’s heard in the audience, but can you give a little bit more of a fine point on the definition?

06:45 Joy: Absolutely. So, this is a phrase that’s popularized in society, and it really speaks to the way that people look around their social spheres and circles, and look oftentimes at their peers and kind of benchmark their lives and their decisions to that. So, they are seeing something, often an outside image or kind of a curated facade. I think certainly social media makes this even more complicated for people today. And then they think to themselves, “Well, if they have that or they are making that lifestyle choice, that must mean I can, or I should.” So then, they make decisions based on what they are seeing around them.

Does “Keeping Up” Make Anyone Happier?

07:43 Emily: Does attempting to keep up with Joneses actually make anyone happier? You know, we’ll address the financial component of that in a moment, but does it do anything for us emotionally or socially to try to keep up with the Joneses?

07:58 Joy: I think really, being in the comparison trap just keep someone emotionally stuck. Because what is not happening when you’re telling yourself, “I need to be, I need to be doing that. I need to be getting farther ahead,” is you aren’t focusing and being centered from a place of being grateful for what you have and really having a sense of contentment. And when you think about someone’s financial life, when there’s this constant search and drive and need for more and more and more, that can lead to dangerous, destructive places. Being on a hedonic treadmill like that can be exhausting. And the truth is that when a lot of times people think, “Well, I will eventually catch up,” but oftentimes the goalpost just keeps on moving.

09:01 Emily: I was just going to say that the phrase is keeping up with the Joneses, right? It’s not hanging out with the Joneses and being at the same level as the Joneses. It’s just like it implied in the phrase itself is a continual striving, as you were just saying, which sounds totally exhausting. I really like that you make the point that we can also move these goalposts on ourselves. Like yeah. Maybe you caught up with, you know, Jones number one over here. Well, that just means you’re going to switch your attention to Jones number two and try keeping up in some other area.

09:32 Joy: I tell people, throughout your life, there will always be Joneses there. You went to graduate school with them. You looked around there and you were like, “Well, they’re doing this. That means, naturally, that’s what I should be doing.” They are always going to be in your workplace. They’re going to be on whatever street you live. So, you moved to the bigger house, the newer neighborhood. Well then there’s going to be someone else who ultimately has a little bit more. So, if you can understand that this idea of peer comparison, it is going to be ever-present, and it’s not so much that the environment or the people around you need to change. What needs to flip is the script in your mind, in terms of the mentality you have when looking to the people in your life.

The Hedonic Treadmill

10:29 Emily: Yes, such a wonderful point. You mentioned the term hedonic treadmill a couple of minutes ago, and I’m betting not everyone in my audience knows what that is. So, can you explain that a little bit further?

10:42 Joy: This idea that often times we’re running a race, we’re going after more, something better. There’s a desire for enough. And people think they are moving closer to the mark, but really you are just exhausting yourself on a treadmill, and there’s never a finish line. So, when you are caught in this cycle, you’re just going to keep running. And it ultimately is never enough. I think, I encourage people to reflect on this idea of what is enough. Who decides what it is, how much it is, how do you know you have it? You know, even how someone answers that question is, is enough a number? Is it a sense of security? Does the outside world get to decide what enough is? Or is that something that you determine for yourself? No, this is, this is good. I can stop. I can breathe. And I don’t have to continue to feel the need to be amassing more.

11:55 Emily: Mhm. I’m currently reading the book Your Money or Your Life for the very first time. This is inside the Personal Finance for PhD’s Community. We have a book club, so I’m reading it for the book club.

12:06 Joy: That’s fabulous.

12:06 Emily: Yeah, I’m surprised it took me so long to read actually, because of course it has been out for a couple of decades. But anyway, the concept of enough figures very prominently, the argument that the authors are making in that book about having, as you were just saying, determining for yourself, and it’s really about self-reflection and it’s not at all about looking around you at what anybody else is doing. You know, what it is to be content, be full in a sense, like in terms of thinking about your appetite. You’re full, but you don’t want to stuff yourself. You don’t want to go beyond this, you know, level of fullness or contentness or enoughness because it’s damaging not only to your finances, but also to you as a person to, you know, as you were just saying, continually strive to go and beyond, beyond, beyond. One aspect of the hedonic treadmill idea that I understand at any rate is that, maybe it’s a little bit similar to like addiction or like getting into that, but what you need to feel a pleasure hit from spending becomes higher and higher and higher because you become adapted every new spending level.

13:10 Emily: You know, you get to a new spending level, you’re like, “Well, this is fantastic. I have all these new experiences and stuff. It’s wonderful.” And then suddenly it’s just normal and it’s just you again. It’s just you, yourself. And then you have to go to a higher spending level to get that hit again. And that’s the sort of a mountain climbing, like that’s kind of the treadmill aspect of it, is that correct?

13:28 Joy: Yes. Yes.

Keeping Up with the Joneses Affects Your Finances

13:31 Emily: So, we were just talking about how this is not ever going to be emotionally satisfying. What happens to your finances if you are striving to keep up with the Joneses?

13:40 Joy: I think it, peer comparison when it comes to finances is so complex. And oftentimes it is very problematic because peers give you permission to sometimes spend in ways that you ultimately can’t afford. And sometimes there’s pressure or there’s fear of missing out. Now, when we look at this idea and this concept of keeping up with the Joneses, when we look at the financial state of affairs of the average American family, who is indebted, over-leveraged, all of these things, if you are then trying to keep up with someone who is overextending, you are then overextending yourself even more. So, it just perpetuates this problem indefinitely. My great-grandmother who lived through the depression, had this phrase that I love. And I never met her, but it was something that was instilled in my mom. And it was this: “Just because they have it, does not mean they can afford it.”

Just Because They Have It, Does Not Mean They Can Afford It

14:53 Joy: And that is something that so many people confuse. They look at, “Well, this is the house they’re living in. This is the car they are driving. These are the vacations they are taking. And so that must mean like that’s okay.” What they don’t see is what goes on behind closed doors. They don’t see the physical, the psychological cost of the stress that comes with carrying debt. They don’t see the impact of the work stress of the employment situation that person feels like they are trapped in because of the lifestyle that they are living. A lot of that stuff happens behind closed doors. But I tell people, so part of my job as a therapist is–I love my job–so often, I wake up and I’m like, “I truly believe I have the best job in the world because I get to sit behind closed doors with incredibly bright, driven people who are having conversations they aren’t having with anyone else in their lives.” So, I’ve sat behind closed doors with the Joneses. And let me tell you, their lives are not as rich or pretty or neat as most people think when you just see a public-facing persona.

16:28 Emily: Yes. That’s a wonderful phrase from your great-grandmother. And actually, it reminded me of something that my pastor from my church in North Carolina was preaching a sermon one time and was talking about this concept of keeping up with the Joneses. And I remember him saying, you know, if you’re going to follow sort of the the Christian way of handling money, you know, there’s certain things in the Bible, the layout of how you’re supposed to do this. He says, you’re going to be living multiple steps behind who you perceive to be as your peers. You’re going to be living a step behind because you’re not going to be leveraged with debt, at least outside of your mortgage or whatever. You are going to be living in step behind because you’re going to be giving. You’re going to be living a step behind because you’re going to be saving for your future as well.

You’re Going to Be Living Three Steps Behind

17:12 Emily: So, he was like, “You’re going to be living three steps behind, you know, who you perceive to be your peers in terms of like your career or whatever it is.” And that has really stuck with me too, that like, yes, it just, as you were saying, you don’t know how other people are handling, you know, as an outsider, you don’t know what’s going on inside their homes and how they’re really managing to live the lifestyle that you can perceive. And, you know, you brought up social media earlier. We have so many more, I think, potential Joneses in our life right now, because we have access, in a way limited access, to a lot more people from maybe a lot of our different stages of life and even people you don’t know. So, I’m sure that this just exacerbates this entire problem.

17:50 Joy: Yes. And I love what you brought up. You brought up something so important about lifestyle choices. If you do the things that most people do, you are going to get the things that most people get. You’re going to get average. And right now, financially average in our country is not a pretty picture. So, it really requires people to step back and ask, “Okay, what do I really want? And what do I want long-term?” In order to get ahead, you have, especially early on, our little choices compound over time. So, I will often explain to clients and people, if you can make, and this is especially applicable to, to students, to professionals. A lot of times, if you are entering a kind of employment, or you’re graduating, you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to start living the doctor life.” No, hold on.

18:56 Joy: If you can give it a couple of years of living like you are a broke grad student and what you can do with the savings during that time, when a lot of your peers are starting to make very different choices, what that can lead to for you in the long-term is huge. But that requires being able to say, “No.” It requires being able to tolerate, okay. Maybe you’re going to miss out on some things. But, if you can be willing to do things differently than other people, you give yourself a chance at having something bigger and better that most people will never achieve.

Commercial

19:44 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, a book club, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

Present Lifestyle Choices Impact Your Future Comfort

20:49 Emily: I’m really glad that you took the conversation in this direction, because it’s exactly where I wanted to go as well. Talking about, you know, when you have these large income jumps, you know, okay for PhDs, you finished graduate school, maybe you’re moving up to a post-doc. Hopefully, a decent jump in income there. Okay, you’re moving out of the postdoc or directly out of the PhD, you’re getting into a proper job. Hopefully, a big jump there. And maybe, you know, throughout your career, potentially there could be other big jumps as you switch, you know, employers or whatnot. So, a lot of my audience is still in graduate school or is still in training. And so, they’re still anticipating and looking forward to those large income jumps in the future. And of course, the advice you just brought up, you know, there’s versions of it. You know, live like a grad student, live like a college student, live like a resident. It’s basically just, keep that lifestyle, or as close to that lifestyle as you can, from your prior earning stage for at least a little while into that next one. And then as you said, you know, this can do fabulous things to your finances. So, can you elaborate on that a little bit more?

21:45 Joy: Absolutely. And I want to explain. I think something that people often don’t fully understand or account for is in school, or maybe early in your career, you have a picture of, “This is what I’m going to want. I’m on this linear trajectory, professionally.” But things change. Life circumstances change. Sometimes your dreams, your desires, opportunities can lead to different places. And, if you have made financial choices so that you have the freedom and flexibility to change your mind, if you want to at a later time, and not be locked in because of the debt you have and the lifestyle that you have settled into, that gives you a ton of freedom. So, I just really emphasize to students that the things you are doing with your money now in these first years of your career are huge. So, if you can just hold on and be a little bit more conservative in some areas, that can have huge implications for your financial life later on.

Saving During Graduate School

23:11 Emily: Yeah. I actually want to give an example from my own life here. It a little feels like I’m tooting my own horn, but I think it does illustrate what you were just talking about. So, when my husband and I were in graduate school, we did our PhDs at the same time. So, we were both on stipends, same time. We saved, you know, I’m into personal finance, right? So like I was figuring this stuff out early. I was figuring out saving, investing and paying off debt and doing all these things. And so I started that during graduate school. Whereas a lot of people, either one have no opportunity to start saving or investing during graduate school, just completely off the table based on either their going into debt for their degrees, or they’re just simply not paid even a living wage. That was not our case.

23:50 Emily: We were very fortunate. So, we were doing that saving. We, one, could, but two, we took the initiative to do it. We were figuring that out at that time. By the time we finished graduate school, we had amassed quite a decent nest egg. And, you know, one, one attitude could have been during that time, “Well, you know, I may as well just spend what I have have, I don’t really need to save right now because I’m going to have this big income jump in the future. And, you know, it’s going to take care of itself at that time. I won’t worry about investing until, you know, later on.” But because we took that other route of starting as early as we could with, you know, saving and investing and so forth, we had a decent nest egg built up by the time we finished graduate school. That enabled one, my husband to take a job at a startup, which he had never anticipated doing and was completely, you know, really nervous about that.

24:30 Emily: We’re sort of conservative with our careers. And so we were like, “Wow, you know, this good job could go at any point.” But it was just such a perfect fit for him. We were like, “How can he pass this up?” You know, we’ll take the risk. We have the nest egg, we can do that. We can take that risk of him taking that kind of job. Secondarily, I was able to start my business, which meant, you know, just completely going off a different track from, you know, the normal job thing, which is a fantastic opportunity and similarly, very good fit for me. So, I feel like our life, you know, career satisfaction levels were much higher than they would have been had we not been in a financial position at that time to be able to make that choice. And the reason we were in that position was because years earlier we had started this process not really knowing that was how it’s going to work out. You know, we didn’t realize, you know, these opportunities came our way and we could take advantage of them because of the preparation we’d done before that point.

25:19 Joy: Absolutely.

How to Cultivate Contentment in the Now

25:21 Emily: So, I’m thinking about a graduate student, probably. Maybe a post-doc, who is currently maybe even practicing not keeping up with the Joneses. Because they probably have a lot of Joneses in their lives that they couldn’t possibly keep up with. Right? Like it’s just not even a feasible thing for them to do right now. So, what would you say to that person about how to still cultivate contentment in their life when they know they can’t even possibly play the game with the Joneses right now, and also how to maintain that once maybe they are able to get in the game once their income is higher?

25:57 Joy: I think, you know, this idea of game and even if we bring it back to the race. if you can understand everyone is playing a different game, and if you can focus on running your own race and just stay in your lane, that is going to set you up for success. Now, I don’t think that if you are not trying to keep up and you’re making a concerted effort around that, that doesn’t mean your life needs to be devoid of fun and human connection. I think, I encourage people to be creative. You can be the one driving the conversation, making suggestions. And the truth is, sometimes if you are maybe doing things or suggesting things to your social circle that are not going to be exorbitantly costly, there are probably going to be some people who are really relieved. Because here’s the thing. Everyone’s running this race.

27:04 Joy: And some people are more aware of it than others. Some people, based on their upbringing and what they bring to the table in terms of their own money scripts, and what gets activated for them around money, they may have different thoughts and feelings about it. But that’s one way to think about it. And you know, this transition when you do have more income, I think it’s important that it doesn’t become, you know, if you think about someone who’s been on a diet and then it’s like, everything is suddenly available, I’m just going to binge. If you can keep a mentality of moderation, that is going to serve you going forward.

Take Ownership of Social Spending

27:50 Emily: I love those two suggestions. And especially the first one around like, it’s sort of like, money decisions, let’s say about social spending with your peer group. They don’t have to happen to you, right? Like you can actually sort of take the wheel and say, at least some of the time, I’m going to be suggesting things to do that are within my budget. Like you said, probably some other people will be relieved. And so, you know, you can do a combination of planning things and maybe saying yes or no here or there to things that other people suggest. So that you’re not, you know, always, always saying no to everything, but yeah, you can keep it more within your range and steer things. I know, certainly for me in graduate school I found a group of friends that I was comfortable socializing with and we all sort of had the same manner of socializing that we enjoyed, and it was very inexpensive. And it was really good for all of us in that sense.

28:40 Emily: And so, you sort of find your people, is maybe one way. So like, there aren’t so many Joneses, so close to you in your life. I had a couple other ideas about how to like combat this, you know, impulse to keep up with the Joneses. One was to redefine what you’re jonesing for. So like instead of jonesing for the consumption aspects of using your money, Jones for like, “I’m going to max out that 401k,” like “I’m going to, you know, be striving”–if you want to strive for something–be striving for something that’s ultimately going to benefit your finances instead of, you know, working in the opposite direction for you.

29:17 Joy: Change your status symbols.

Happiness is Not Contingent on What You Are Chasing

29:20 Emily: Yes. Oh, that’s a great way of putting it. I love that. It’s very, you know, it’s millionaire next door. Right. So, try to be like that person. Are there any other like sort of behavioral finance tips that you would suggest for, you know, helping people achieve their financial goals without letting these Jones impulses kind of get in their way?

29:40 Joy: Well, I think just really paying attention to what you are benchmarking to, this idea of this is the baseline. I think that’s really important. As you think about and reflect on, I think developing financial self-awareness and doing some reflection and understanding about what gets activated for you with your money, and really starting to dig into some of the more core beliefs you carry about money and how that drives what you do with it. I think those are really important foundational places for people to start.

30:26 Emily: Yeah, I think going along with those exercises as well, and you just mentioned this, is sort of remembering where you’ve come from. Like remembering the influences, of course, that your parents have, and then maybe your peers, you know, through different stages of your life. And remembering like, especially once you’ve passed, like the graduate school stage, like, “Okay, back then I did live on this amount of money. I did have this size of home. I did do these things. Was I happy then? Was I content then? Why are things different now? Could they be more similar to how things were in the past?” I’m asking myself some of these questions now that I’m, you know, a few years out of graduate school.

31:02 Joy: If you are telling yourself, “I will be happy when,” and you are then looking to something in the future, I would really encourage you to go back into your history and think about this idea of happy. What is some other evidence you have that there have been other times when you’ve had that feeling that experience that you haven’t had that thing? So, happiness is not contingent on that which you are chasing.

The Power of “No”

31:34 Emily: Yeah. That’s such a, I think foundational point about happiness, that I’m only just sort of starting to learn myself now in my thirties. And I wish I had known it because I am the type of person who kind of always has goals and is always striving for something. And my husband definitely kind of complains and kind of ribs me for like always wanting the next thing. And why can’t you be satisfied now? And, I am starting to realize like that. Whoo. That’s just how I am. I need to really like, look at that because I’m never going to get there. Right? If that’s what I’m basing that on. Is there anything else you wanted to add, Joy, before we wrap up the interview here?

32:09 Joy: I think this idea of there’s a lot of power in saying no and having financial boundaries, that’s something I do a lot of talking with people about. I think a lot of things get in the way of people saying, “No.” There’s a fear of missing out. There’s a discomfort with what you are anticipating someone else’s reaction is going to be. And the truth is, I believe people would be healthier, wealthier, and less exhausted overall if they built that muscle of saying “No” more often. And again, that’s not saying no to everything. But if you are finding yourself in a situation in your gut where you’re like, “I’m going to say yes, but I really don’t want to do this.” Ask yourself why. And then what is getting in the way of your taking care of yourself? If it’s your energy, if it’s your finances, and what would need to happen in order for you to have the courage to say, “No?” And what is the cost to your yes? Be that financial, physical, psychological.

How To Connect with Joy Lere

33:27 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. How can people find out more about the work that you do? Or I don’t know, if they want to be a client of yours. Like how do people connect with you?

33:37 Joy: My website is my name. J O Y L E R E. Joylere.com. I am active on LinkedIn, Joy Lere Psyd, and also spin my creative wheels on Instagram a little bit, @ joylerepsyd, and also love to hang out on Twitter and connect with people there. Also, my handle is joylerepsyd.

Best Advice for an Early-Career PhD

34:02 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. That’s where we connected as well. So, final question here, Joy. What is your best financial advice for an early-career PhD? It could be something we’ve touched on in this interview, or it could be something else entirely.

34:14 Joy: My best advice is to do things different than most people around you. If you do that now, you will have things that no one else later on in their career will likely be able to accomplish and achieve.

34:36 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. Thank you so much for this interview and for joining me today.

34:39 Joy: Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Thanks for sharing your platform with me.

Outtro

34:44 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD Student’s Intricate Budgeting System Uses Cash Symbolically

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In this episode, Emily interviews Alicia Jones, a PhD student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and the creator of the YouTube channel Alicia Does Adulting. Alicia explains in detail her intricate budgeting system, which involves creating a zero-based budget every two weeks, allocating cold hard cash into envelopes, contributing to her debt avalanche, and funding her targeted savings accounts. She uses this budget to keep her intimately connected with her spending decisions and accountable to her financial goals. Alicia and her husband have paid off $70,000 of debt in the past year and a half and now have a positive net worth.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Teaser

00:00 Alicia: I try to turn whatever I can into a game. And finance has become a game for me. I do the little colored charts. I want to see exactly how much money I can put towards savings or debt each month and that continues to motivate me.

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast, a higher education In personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode six. And today my guest is Alicia Jones, a PhD student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and the creator of the YouTube channel, Alicia Does Adulting. Alicia explains, in detail, her intricate budgeting system, which involves creating a zero based budget every two weeks, allocating cold, hard cash into envelopes, contributing to her debt, avalanche and funding her targeted savings accounts. She uses this budget to keep her intimately connected with her spending decisions and accountable to her financial goals. So far Alicia, and her husband has paid off $70,000 of debt in a year and a half and now have a positive net worth.

01:12 Emily: You’ll hear an exciting new addition to the interview today, which is a couple of questions contributed live by members of the Personal Finance for PhDs community. Going forward, members of the community are invited to attend my podcast recording sessions and ask their own questions of my guests. If you would like to participate in the interviews as well, all you have to do is join the community at pfforphds.community. If you’d like to check out my schedule of upcoming podcast recording sessions, you can find that pfforphds.com/podcast. Joining the community is an excellent way to support the podcast. Plus, you’ll receive myriad other benefits. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Alicia Jones from Alicia Does Adulting.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:58 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Alicia Jones from Alicia Does Adulting, which is the name of her YouTube channel. And Alicia has really fantastic story to tell us, but really primarily, she’s here to teach us her budgeting system, which is quite intricate. And I highly recommend that you go check out her YouTube channel. It’s actually really fascinating. You’ll be hearing more about it as we go forward. Ao Alicia, please introduce yourself a little bit further for our audience.

02:26 Alicia: Well, thank you so much for having me. This is super exciting. My name is Alicia. I’m a third year doctoral student and I go to the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaige. I am studying kinesiology. I actually got my masters from U of I in kinesiology as well. And my research interests are kind of varied. I’ve not had the most traditional grad student experience. I am running on average three studies at once, just because of the way my program is. Overall, my research is how behavioral changes impact the overall wellbeing of people with and without disabilities. I also work in MS work. I work in breast cancer work. I kind of do a little bit of everything, but it’s nice being in kinesiology because you get to wear leggings to class sometimes. If you’re looking for a major or concentration, highly recommend exercise science for that.

03:20 Emily: All right. That’s really fun. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. And along the way of your grad school journey, or maybe before, I don’t know, you developed an interest in personal finance, and in particular, you started your YouTube channel, Alicia Does Adulting. The channel name is quite general, but I think that you mostly talk about personal finance stuff, is that right?

03:39 Alicia: Yeah. The way that I introduced the channel is that I’m attempting to get my life together and I’m focusing on finances first. Eventually I would like to fully adult with all the aspects of adulting, but I’m not there yet. I’m still working on the money part.

03:55 Emily: Yeah. Well, the money part is going to, it takes a lifetime to work all this stuff out.

Alicia’s Budgeting System

The Basics

03:59 Emily: Really excited to get to the topic of our conversation today, which is on your budgeting system, which of course, when I saw your YouTube videos, I was absolutely fascinated by this. Please, I know it’s going to take a little while to explain, but just kind of walk us through all the different elements that you use for your budgeting.

04:14 Alicia: Definitely. I will start off with, I’m not saying that this budgeting system is for everyone. Everyone has their own way of making this work for them. I actually originally started doing a monthly budget and it failed horribly and I started playing around with it from there. The way that I will describe my budgeting system is that it is a zero-based, paycheck-to-paycheck budget.

04:41 Alicia: What does that mean? Zero-based means that I take any remaining penny after my bills, expenses, free spending money, any of that, and it gets given a specific job. So before the pandemic, that was pretty much exclusively going towards debt. When the pandemic hit, I switched my goals and I wanted to save some money, so it all went there. So I have $0 left after my paychecks are all cleared. I do keep a little bit of money in my checking account just because math is not always my friend and sometimes I forget something. I leave about a hundred dollars cushion. So you don’t have to worry about overdraft fees this way.

05:23 Alicia: Then I do paycheck to paycheck. Between my husband and I, we have anywhere between four and eight or nine jobs at once. The paycheck to paycheck system worked well for me because every other Friday we each had a steady income coming in on those days. All of the bills that come up during that pay period, I take care of all of that during that paycheck. Then if I’m saving up for something, I can kind of devote that. It comes down to a lot of planning and a little bit of strategy, I guess.

05:56 Emily: Yeah. Let me make sure understand exactly what’s going on here, because this is definitely different from how I budget and probably how most people do it, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on. When you say that you have the zero based budget, is what you mean that when you receive your pay or at least every second Friday, when you’re settling up, you are at that point, allocating all of the money for the upcoming two weeks, is that right?

06:20 Alicia: I do it within the week. Anything that was due on that Friday, I account it starting there up until the next Thursday. Whenever the bill is hit, for the most part, I tend to pay my bills about two weeks in advance, just because I’d never want to miss it. That just tends to be my system, but if you look at a true paycheck to paycheck, it would be within that Friday to the following Thursday.

Dealing with Variable Expenses

06:46 Emily: Okay. And then I understand that the bills that have come in, that’s a fixed amount, you know what it is. What about money that’s sort of up to you, like your grocery spending or some discretionary money. Are you allocating a maximum that you’re going to put towards that? Or how do you handle variable expenses?

07:05 Alicia: This is where my system probably gets more complicated to people, but it’s what works for me. I use a cash envelope system on top of it. For groceries, for example, for our household, every paycheck, I set aside $300 for household, so groceries and whatever else might come about, but then I put everything on credit cards. If you watch my channel, you’ll see I will do an expense tracker where I go through every single penny that I spent, then I actually will take the money out of the cash envelopes. The reason why I like this system is I am a chronic spender. I actually managed to get myself into $15,000 of debt in my early twenties and I never want to be in credit card debt like that again. This is kind of like a checks and balance system. If I didn’t have that check for me personally, if I say I’m only spending $50 on clothing, and then I find a $75 outfit that I really want, in my brain, I still want credit card. I want to put it on a credit card. I want it now, that kind of thing.

Alicia: What I can do with my system is, “okay, I bought the $75 outfit, I have to make a sacrifice somewhere else because I don’t have any flexibility.” That $25 could come out of my household to make up the difference, but then I can’t spend all of my money on household. It kind of becomes a checks and balance system. And for me, I’m flexible with it. Some people, with the envelope system, it’s very much like when you hit the end of your envelope, you cannot spend any more. And I just give myself a little bit more leeway. Things come up, or sometimes you just need to de-stress a little bit and maybe you go out and have a drink with a friend or something. As long as I’m making sacrifices and none of it stays on my credit card, then I’m happy with it.

09:01 Emily: So the cash aspect is actually a stand in for just, this is the limit. The important part is not literally that you’re using cash because ultimately when you make the purchases, you are not using cash, you are using credit cards. But the cash is just sort of a visual and physical reminder that, okay, that’s the end of the envelope, you’ve reached the end, now you must reallocate if you need to go beyond that. I definitely like this aspect of it because I am not that strict with my budget anymore. I used to be quite strict in a similar way, like, okay, I overspent here, I’ll have to transfer from somewhere else now. I sort of let it go, but I definitely find it attractive to, at the end of the day, make sure everything’s added up to zero to account for the entire paycheck.

How Alicia Keeps Her System Flexible

09:43 Emily: Okay, we’ve talked about it being a paycheck to paycheck budget, a zero based budget. You’re allocating every single dollar that’s coming in. We talked about the cash envelopes. Are there any other elements to your budget that you’d like to share?

09:56 Alicia: I think the big thing for me, and it’s one of the things that I think some people don’t understand if you’ve watched the channel for a little bit. It’s strict and slightly complicated, but it also allows for a lot of flexibility, and that was something that was really important to me. Everyone that’s listening to this is either in grad school or wants to go to grad school or has experienced grad school and we know how stressful it is. And I try to add as little extra stressors to my life as I can, but I have a bunch of student loan debt that I really want to pay off. I have a bunch of financial goals, like I’m working towards technically retiring early. I want to have that kind of cushion in my bank account. So I want to start working towards those goals, but I also just don’t want to stress myself any more. It is a little bit time consuming, which is why I’ll say it’s probably not for everyone, but it is something to potentially give it a try. It’s been really fun on the YouTube channel in particular, because I get to hear people trying my system and it was never really meant for other people to try it, it’s just what worked for me, so it’s been really cool to hear success stories about how it works. If you’re interested in it, definitely give it a shot.

11:11 Emily: There was one more thing that I wanted to ask you about, which is, I believe that you also use sinking funds or, I use the term targeted savings accounts for that. Is that the same as your envelopes or is that a separate sort of variation on that?

11:25 Alicia: It’s very similar, but I leave my sinking funds online because they’re usually bigger purchases and I just don’t want to have that cash on me, personally. I put all of my sinking funds into one checking account and then I have an online tracker for everything. It’s a similar kind of grace system of, I actually have three sinking funds that are negative right now, and it’s because I’ve borrowed from other places. We do an annual trip to Canada, but we didn’t this year because the borders were closed. So I have some money set aside in that account that I can borrow from. I do highly recommend sinking funds or targeted savings. They have been a massive game changer for me because that was one of the ways that when I originally started to budget without much guidance, those types of things like needing new tires, I logically knew that those that was going to happen, but I never planned for it. And then the month would come and it would be a disaster and it would go on a credit card and then I’d carry on. And that’s how I got $15,000 of credit card debt.

12:31 Emily: Yeah. Can you actually, for the listener, explain a little bit further what a sinking fund or a targeted savings account is, and actually give a few maybe examples or your list of which ones you have named.

12:41 Alicia: Definitely. Sinking funds and targeted savings accounts are things that you’re saving up for that you know will eventually happen. For me and my family, we celebrate Christmas. Christmas happens same time every single year, and I know approximately how much I want to spend. So instead of in December pulling $600 out of my budget, every single month, I put $50 into a Christmas sinking fund account. I have some for the Canada trip that I mentioned, which is usually about a $2,000 expense, so I save a couple hundred dollars every single month, so it doesn’t feel super overwhelming to me.

13:19 Alicia: I actually did some research into sinking funds because they were such a game changer and I’m a grad student nerd, so I wanted to know what the literature said, and it’s actually a concept of being able to allocate money with a name. I don’t know if any listener or if you might have this experience, but I’ve actually always been a semi-decent saver. I always had money and usually several thousand dollars, at least in my savings account, but then my tires would blow up and I would need new ones and I’d put it on a credit card because to me in my brain that wasn’t an emergency. I shouldn’t take that out of my emergency savings. That money always has to be there. So by allocating this little bit of money that just sits to the side that has a name, it makes the rational jump of, “Oh, I need new tires. I have a car maintenance fund. It comes from the car maintenance.” That is probably one thing I will keep the rest of my life, no matter what. It is a massive game changer for me.

14:19 Emily: Yeah. I absolutely love sinking funds and targeted savings accounts as well. I started using them in grad school as well, when, similar to you, I had some expenses come up and in our case we didn’t go into credit card debt, but we just had to say no to a bunch of stuff that we didn’t want to say no to. And it kind of helped us realize, okay, well we do need to do some advanced planning for these sort of large expenses that come up every so often. So I started using them in grad school as well. And I did have a year when I didn’t use them, which was the year from when we left Durham, where we were living during graduate school and moved to Seattle. And so for that first year in Seattle, everything was an upheaval and we had no idea, it was a lot harder to predict your expenses once you moved to new place, et cetera, et cetera. But after that year, I was like, “Nope, I’m tired of living this way. I need to go back to having the targeted savings accounts in place.” So they’re back in place and still in play, which has been wonderful. Of course, 2020 has thrown things off quite a bit. Like you didn’t end up using your Canada trip money and certainly we’ve had spending opportunities that we anticipated that didn’t happen, so there’s definitely been some reallocation, but you kind of have to roll with it.

Using a Combination of Cash and Credit

15:25 Emily: Actually we have a question that just came in from one of my Personal Finance for PhD community members. I invite my community members to listen in on my podcast recordings. So if you are listening to this podcast and you want to be in on these recording sessions and ask your own questions, I invite you to join the community. You can find it at pfforphds.community. The question that just came in is: why or how did you decide to use both cash and a credit card and not just cash? What do you do with the cash since you’re not actually spending it? And this is exactly the question that I was gonna ask too, so please go ahead.

16:00 Alicia: Yeah. This is one of the biggest questions that I get. The big reason why I didn’t want to use just cash is because I’m on campus very late at night. And so I didn’t feel comfortable. I have a very relatively safe campus, but I just didn’t want to have any extra money on me that I didn’t need to have. I’m also not a purse or bag carrier, so I have just like a little wallet that has my keys. So having the credit cards was more convenient for me and some places on my campus actually don’t take cash, they only take cards. So the few times I’d like go to pay for something. I would have had to put it on a card anyway. But there are a few benefits for me personally, at least I guess, not just me, but you do get a little bit of extra security. If something goes wrong, if it’s a payment that you didn’t actually make or something like that, there’s security systems built into credit cards, which is beneficial. I have a little bit of extra leeway. If something massive happens, so for a real life example, last night, I had to take my cat to an emergency vet and that is $2,000 and that was not in the budget. That will go on a credit card, which now gives me 30 days to pay it off before any interest hits. That’s a nice benefit. And you also get cash back. Eventually I do want to get into travel hacking, but right now I just use the cash back to help pay off random bills that come up that I wasn’t expecting or kind of like treat yourself things. And on average, I make about a hundred dollars a month on my cash back credit cards, so I’ll take that.

17:42 Emily: Yeah, that definitely helps with the budget as well, to give you a little bit more wiggle room. And then the other part of that question was, so you literally have cash in your home, and it just gets recycled paycheck to paycheck period? What exactly is happening with that cash?

17:56 Alicia: It kind of depends. Before COVID, I was very good at taking that money, putting it into the deposit envelope and taking it right back to the bank. Since I’ve been limiting my trips, it has been getting recycled. So the people at my bank know me very well and they know I have very specific denominations that I asked for. They were very used to me doing it, but it is just kind of like a cycle of cash. So I end my week on a Thursday and usually on Friday is when I will go through all of my expenses and pull out all the cash. If it’s convenient for me to go to the bank, that money just goes back and then goes directly to credit cards. If not, since COVID that money kind of just sits there, and then the next time I need to take out cash, I just don’t take it. So the cash that got left in the bank account that never came out, goes towards the credit cards.

Commercial

18:49 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, book club and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now back to the interview.

Debt Repayment Under Alicia’s Budgeting System

19:53 Emily: You mentioned earlier that you’re working on student loan debt repayments, some other debt repayment — how does your debt repayment process figure into the budget?

20:02 Alicia: That’s one of the reasons why I like the zero based budget. I do a debt avalanche. I target one debt at a time and I specifically targeted the highest interest debt to save the most amount of money that I could in interest. I have an allotted amount of all of the previous debt that I’ve paid off. Each month $1,600 actually goes towards debt pretty much no matter what. Maybe in a massive emergency I wouldn’t, but I pretty much do that every month. Then whatever excess money I have goes towards debt. I pay all of my bills, I do all of my cash envelopes and sinking funds, and then every other penny gets thrown towards debt.

20:47 Emily: I see.

20:48 Alicia: It becomes a big part of my budget.

20:50 Emily: Just to clarify, I think when you said all the debt you’ve paid off in the past, what you’re talking about is the minimum payments of each one of the debts that you’ve made in the past that have now been cleared. You’re still quote unquote making that minimum payment. You’re just making it to the next debt and you you’re in your list, the top debt in your list. So it used to be that you had minimum payments of $1,600 and now some portion of that is you just throwing additional money at your current top loan, is that right?

21:18 Alicia: Yep. And so the way it ended up working with the debt avalanche method in particular, pretty much all of my big minimum payments were first. I did, after about five months of starting budgeting, get a $20,000 medical bill, so I put that onto a credit card and I had one year to pay that off and I made the decision to have that as part of my minimum payments and my debt snowball too. It got a lot bigger because of that.

21:44 Emily: Yeah. Wow. I’m so glad to have these examples of real life coming at you. Not that it’s pleasant or happy, but just as instructive as it is for the listeners to learn how you’re dealing with that, because I’m sure a lot of them have had similar experiences or are having similar experiences.

22:00 Emily: One comment about that debt repayment method — I think I made this name up, so I don’t know if anyone else uses it, but I call what you just explained saving first and last. In the personal finance community, we talk a lot about pay yourself first. So as soon as you get paid, you do your debt snowball, you put money towards that, all of your financial goals, you put money there, then you spend whatever remains. But I also used your system of, okay, I have my financial goals, that’s happening right after I get paid, and then whatever money I have left over because I came in under budget in X, Y, Z categories, that also gets saved or thrown into a debt snowball or debt avalanche process. I call that saving first and last because saving last is like not a good idea, but saving first and last to me that was like motivational to come in under budget in these various categories so I would have more money to throw towards the financial goals. Does that work same for you?

22:54 Alicia: Yeah. And I don’t know if you’ve read any of like the gamify literature, but that’s kind of what I do with everything is I try to turn whatever I can into a game. And finance has become a game for me. I do the little color charts. I want to see exactly how much money I can put towards savings or debt each month. And that continues to motivate me. I hadn’t thought about that it was first and last, but it definitely is.

Why This Budgeting Method Works For Alicia

23:19 Emily: Yeah. So you mentioned earlier, your system is complex, it’s intricate. That may not be for everyone, but why have you made it so complex to yourself? Why do you think that this is working well for you?

23:32 Alicia: I think a big part of it is that I am very numbers driven and I wanted to take this journey to learn as much as I could about myself and about my finances, particularly since I’m the spender of my family. I wanted to know every little piece of data and I don’t really show it too much on the channel, but I do run the numbers for myself. I like to see exactly how much I’ve increased in household spending from this time, this year versus last time. It’s complicated, but part of it just feels like I’m learning lessons every single week. And particularly with using cash and credit, I’m having to constantly remind myself that you can have certain things, but you have to make sacrifices. You don’t just get the easy win all the time. You have to balance it out.

24:24 Emily: Yeah. When I talk with people about budgeting, sometimes I talk about the merits of using an app versus like maybe creating your own spreadsheet, or at least doing manual tracking in some manner, even if it is in an app or something. And what I say about that is that, doing these things manually keeps you very intimate with your numbers. It keeps you very closely connected to facing up to the decisions that you’re making and reconciling them. It sounds like that’s why you’re doing that. In terms of recommending the system to anyone else, who do you think the system would work well for?

24:56 Alicia: It has to be someone that’s pretty motivated, I think, because it does take more time than just tracking it within an app. But I think this is someone who, if you’re very motivated by learning, I think that’s probably the biggest thing. I’m constantly diving back into my own spending habits and I really like self help type things. I love working on self-improvement and that’s, I think why I was really drawn to this method of constantly having to learn and adapt and that to me is exciting.

25:30 Emily: Yeah, that sounds wonderful. What motivates you to stick with this now intricate and somewhat time consuming system?

25:40 Alicia: Honestly, one of the biggest thing is accountability. One of the reasons why I first started this channel is I’ve found that the more that I talk about things that I experienced in my life, the more people I find to have experienced similar things, or can relate and give advice. I started talking about money with my friends and family. I started talking about it on my YouTube channel, and if you follow it, you see just about everything that I spend and do and whatnot. Unless I forget something, you see it. Knowing that that’s always there, that my friends are now tracking my progress in some ways, on the times that I’ve just really wanted to go and do something, maybe not super crazy, but a little bit frivolous I don’t because I know someone’s holding me accountable to it. And unfortunately I’m not the type of person that can just hold myself accountable. Having other people has really, really helped me in this journey.

26:39 Emily: Yeah. I’ll say another vote for that as well. My current website, my home on the web is pfforphds.com but during graduate school, I was actually blogging for under a different website, which was evolvingpf.com, Evolving Personal Finance. And I similarly, not as frequently as you, but I would do at least monthly reports of this was everything I spent and this was a very popular thing to do on the internet at that time. And I’m sure it’s still maybe on YouTube as well. And it was really, really great accountability for us, helping us to stick to our goals. We use that during the time that we were in graduate school when we really had a tight budget and we had high, lofty goals for our money. It seems less necessary in my life now, post PhD, so I’ve kind of moved on from it, but it was a really, really useful tool for that time. And just actually to mention the community again, this is something that any listener can do through the PFforPhDs Community, if you choose to use it that way. It can be great for accountability, and you’re welcome to report all your spending inside that community as well, if you want. It’ll be private. It won’t be open for everyone to see, but you will have the other community members there to at least in theory, hold you accountable.

How Alicia Uses Her Budgeting Method for Achieving Financial Goals

27:48 Emily: I was also thinking about your debt repayment journey, and now you said earlier that you’ve also started saving up more since the pandemic. Maybe your priorities are a little bit different. Can you talk about using this budgeting system and how you’re motivated to use it towards your financial goals?

28:03 Alicia: Yeah. So I started this journey with $120,000 of debt and actually just this month, I’m under the $50,000 mark, so we’re making some pretty good progress. But it comes back to the idea of kind of gamifying everything. I turn as much as I can of my life into a game to keep it fun and interesting. Each month being able to see my savings account get higher, and then you get additional interest, which is also a nice little boost because it feels like free money. And then seeing my interest amounts go down when I pay off debt or just seeing the numbers go down. Each and every month I track that I track both of those and then I also track my net worth. And so each of those has become a game to me, and again, I try to not have too much stress in my life, so if my net worth goes down, I don’t beat myself up over it. I know it’s part of the journey. When the pandemic hit, I was working really hard to pay off all of my debt by May of 2021 beause that’s when I turned 30 and I wanted to be debt free by 30. That didn’t happen and that’s not going to happen because pandemic, but now I’ve been able to see my investments grow a little bit. I’ve been able to see my savings grow. Having constant check-ins, or at least regular check-ins really helps keep me motivated.

29:21 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for telling us about that. How do you think being a PhD student interacts with this journey? I know you’re married, so presumably your husband is not a graduate student as well. Do you think that being a PhD student plays into your budgeting or your financial goals at all?

29:39 Alicia: I think in some ways. I think possibly the reason why it’s so complicated is because I do like data as much as I do, and I like being able to see those numbers. Tracking absolutely every single thing, maybe a PhD thing, but I think also being a PhD student and looking at things from more of a logical point of view has also really helped me. Being able to sit down and like logically look at the debt versus how much money I could have in retirement has really helped me on the journey. It’s helped me take some of the emotions out of finance when finance is a very emotional thing. It can be your entire life. I think that’s kind of where the PhD-ness comes out

30:23 Emily: More of like the personality of a PhD student or PhD. Will you please recommend a video or two, if people want to check out your channel, Alicia Does Adulting. So you count cash on your channel, which I had never watched a video of before, but now that I’ve seen on your channel, wow it’s actually pretty riveting. Would you recommend a video or two for people to kind of get an intro to you?

30:46 Alicia: It sounds really odd when you tell people the first time I’m a former bank teller, so the sound of cash is very soothing to me. That’s how I actually found personal finance YouTube, was cash counting. Any of the “budget with me”, you can see in detail how I do my budgets and then see the cash counting, which is very fun. I actually have a video coming out this next week, which is really exciting, so before October 1st and it’s the science of cyclical savings. I’ve kind of evolved my channel a little bit into at least two educational videos per month-ish, when I can.I dug into financial literature and I started to find different savings strategies, investment strategies. Different things that my population for the most part is not PhD students they’re not going to go to academic literature, so I kind of break it down into more lay terms for people, because I genuinely just want everyone to have a good financial standing and for it to not be stressful for them. That will be out next week and I’m really excited to talk about that, and how you can save 80% each month more than if you didn’t have a plan.

31:59 Emily: Oh, wow. Yeah. I’ll definitely watch that video and will, and get from the show notes as well beause it should be out by the time this episode comes out. That sounds fabulous.

Questions from the Personal Finance for PhDs Community

32:06 Emily: I want to take a pause here and invite any members of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community who have a question at this point. This is your opportunity to follow up with Alicia and maybe get some more specifics for your situation.

32:18 Emily: Okay, so we do have one question that came in from a community member. Would you say that using cash is symbolic for you more than anything?

32:27 Alicia: I think symbolic is a really good word for it. I just need one extra thing of accountability and I’m the type of person if I hand over $20 that actually wasn’t as painful for me as having to budget it at the end, so using just cash envelopes, didn’t really work for me in that sense, but physically going through and having to pull money out of my personal spending for an unexpected thing is very symbolic and just kind of helps visualize that process for me.

33:00 Emily: Yeah. I really liked that aspect of it as well. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I actually didn’t really catch on to that just from watching a few of your videos, that the cash was really being recycled, at this point, not before, but at this point.

Best Financial Advice for an Early Career PhD

33:10 Emily: We’ll wrap up with our final question, Alicia, which is what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD?

33:17 Alicia: My biggest advice is it’s never too early to start and it is never too late to start. Every little bit that I’ve done along the way has helped. Every step you take really does help you and if you have never really thought about looking at your finances, today’s the day to start because you never know when one of these unexpected massive things are going to hit. Since I started my journey, I’ve had a lot of massive financial things happen and because I understood my money and I understood where I was at, I could face $20,000 of medical debt with relative calmness, which I can guarantee you, Alicia from five years ago would have been a sobbing mess over all of it and I was actually pretty calm. My biggest advice is just start. Even if it’s small, even if it’s $5, it really does add up.

34:13 Emily: Yeah, I totally totally agree. And actually just to give people some scope, you said you’ve paid off, I think it’s over $70,000 worth of debt right now. Over what time period did you do that?

34:22 Alicia: It’s been about a year and a half.

34:25 Emily: Oh wow!

34:26 Alicia: Yeah! Our first year was really good and then everything kind of hit the fan. This year has not been great, but we actually went from a negative $56,000 net worth and we’re now in the positives. We’re about to hit $10,000, which might not sound like a big net worth to a lot of people, but it was a big deal for me to be positive.

34:46 Emily: Yeah. You’re now at a $10,000-aire, right? Every order of magnitude we can celebrate. Well, this has been such a wonderful conversation, Alicia, and thank you so much for joining me and sharing your experience and your wisdom with my listeners.

35:00 Alicia: Well, thank you so much for having me. This has been super fun!

Outtro

35:04 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How a Freelancing Career Can Take You from Academia to Affluence

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In this episode, Emily interviews Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. Courtney became a successful freelance writer after leaving her PhD program in anthropology and moving to one of her field sites. She now teaches other academics how to launch freelancing careers through her course, Endless Freelance Income. In this interview, Courtney gives us her #1 piece of advice for new freelancers, which all academics need to take to heart! She also outlines the simple steps it takes to get your freelance career off the ground. Courtney’s location-independent business has enabled her to earn a very nice income on very part-time work, which will be attractive to academics looking to freelance for a side or main income.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

academic freelancer

Teaser

00:00 Courtney: I actually do not work full time. I work maybe 15 or 20 hours a week. But I actually still earn a full-time income because I get paid well.

Introduction

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 17, and today my guest is Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. Courtney became a successful freelance writer after leaving her PhD program in anthropology and moving to one of her field sites, but it wasn’t all smooth sailing. She now teaches other academics how to launch freelance careers through her course, Endless Freelance Income. In this interview, Courtney gives us her best advice for new freelancers, which all academics need to take to heart. She also outlines the simple steps it takes to get your freelance career off the ground. Courtney’s location-independent business has enabled her to earn a very nice income on a very part-time schedule, which I know is attractive to academics looking to freelance for a side income or main income. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:17 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. And I just want to tell you, in one second, how Courtney and I first met online, which is that I saw a post that she wrote a few months back on Jobs on Toast, and I saw her business name, Academia to Affluence, and I was like, this is going to be a good fit. I need to talk with Courtney. So, Courtney, will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself and why your business name is what it is and what you’re up to?

01:47 Courtney: Okay. Yes. So sure. My name is Courtney Danyel. I am an anthropologist by training, but I actually wear quite a few different hats. I’m a freelance business writer also. I’ve been doing that for the past seven years. And as an anthropologist, I’ve worked in Africa in the Central African Republic and Ethiopia. And I actually currently live in one of my field sites, which is Ethiopia. I’ve lived here since I started freelancing seven years ago. And another thing that I started doing late last year was I started mentoring other academics and other people with an academic background to help them transition into freelancing and actually have created an online course for that purpose.

Top Advice for an Academic to Start Freelancing

02:30 Emily: Yeah. So the course name is Endless Freelance Income. I’m actually affiliate for Courtney’s course. I had an opportunity to check it out, you know, before this interview, I think it’s fabulous. And if you want to find out more about that on my end, you can go to pfforphds.com/freelance and find out more about Courtney’s course. And I actually have a couple of bonuses for people in my audience who want to sign up for her course. So, first, you know, right up front, we’re going to get some insights from this course. And then we’ll learn a little bit more about Courtney’s background and her personal story that got her to this point. So, Courtney, your absolute top advice for an academic looking to start freelancing, what is it?

03:10 Courtney: My number one piece of advice for academics who want to start freelancing is to command high pay from day one. That’s because that’s a major mistake that I made when I first started freelancing. I had finished my master’s and I had done part of my PhD and I ended up dropping out of my PhD and decided to switch to freelancing. And as far as I was concerned, I thought I was starting from zero because I was doing freelance writing and I’m writing about topics that aren’t related to my academic discipline. And so, “I don’t know what I’m doing.” And that’s basically what I thought about myself. And so for that reason, I didn’t think that I deserved very high pay. And then I took a lot of jobs that didn’t pay very well at all.

03:57 Courtney: Actually, for the first year and a half or so that I freelanced I was not paid well at all. And then one day I was doing some research for an article that I was writing. I did a lot of ghostwriting back then, which is you write content for other people and it’s published under their name. And I was doing some research for an article that I was ghostwriting for a client. And I Googled something and I clicked on an article that was on forbes.com and I looked at it and it looked familiar. And then I realized that it was written by me. And after I realized that, I started doing some more Googling and I found that my content, stuff that I had written for my clients, had been published on Forbes, Vice, Business Insider, entrepreneur.com and like all these different top business publications. So, that’s what made me realize that, wow, I guess I am a really good writer in other niches besides just anthropology. And I do deserve to be paid well for the work that I do. And after that, I raised my rates, tripled them really, and basically never looked back.

05:05 Emily: I think that this advice is, one, good advice just for everybody, but two, something that academics or post-academics really need to hear, because we are kind of conditioned during graduate school to undervalue ourselves. And it takes really a lot of mental work–and for you a year and a half of actually working in your new field–to undo that conditioning, that mindset that’s been instilled in us. So, I think that it’s something that this audience really, really needs to hear. And I have found as I’ve been involved in academic entrepreneurship spaces, this is one of the top pieces of advice that we pass to one another, which is just raise your rates, raise your rates, raise your rates. I mean, we’re so conditioned. Yeah. We’re so conditioned not only to undervalue our time, undervalue our work, but also think that service is something that you have to do for your job, which I guess in academia, yes, you do have to, but outside of that, no, you should be paid for the value that you bring.

Courtney’s Course Covers Base Pay in Different Freelance Fields

06:09 Emily: So, anyway, it’s a wonderful, wonderful piece of advice. So, actually one thing I wanted to mention is, something I liked in your course is that you speak, of course your experience is in writing, but in the course, you cover a lot more than that, right? Freelancing is a lot more than just freelance writing. And so you talk about base pay rates that you can kind of expect in different fields. Right? I thought that was really that you just got the research jump-started a little bit for the people in the course.

06:40 Courtney: Yeah. You know, for me, I’m basically almost a hundred percent at this point, just a writer, but I actually have a lot of experience freelancing in other areas also, including doing editing and data science and different things. Because you can dip your nib in a lot of different freelance niches. And I also wanted to make the course really open to people who have different skill sets from what I have. Not everybody’s an anthropologist. They have different things, different skills that they bring from academia that they can earn good money from in freelancing also. And so, the course actually introduces several different popular niches, including writing and editing, translation, data science, consulting, sales, and marketing. So, you can kind of discover which one is the best fit for your current skills.

07:30 Emily: Yeah. I mean one of the fields you just mentioned, consulting, is always one that’s very attractive to me when I find other PhDs or graduate students who are consulting. One, because it’s a very broad in flexible kind of terms. So, a lot of people can be consultants in different ways, but also because it tends to command a nice high pay rate if you’re consulting in an area of expertise. I mean, you mentioned earlier that when you went into freelance writing, you were kind of moving away from anthropology. You were writing more about business. But you know, many other people who might be listening to this, they want to double down in their field of expertise. Right? And that’s how they can command those really high pay rates that you mentioned earlier.

08:07 Courtney: Absolutely.

Get Noticed as a Freelancer

08:07 Emily: Okay. So, let’s say you’ve convinced people, people are in your course, they’re going to go down this freelance route, whether it’s writing, consulting, some other field. What’s the best way for them to get started kind of hanging their shingle and letting people know I’m a freelancer now, you can hire me?

08:27 Courtney: Yeah. So, I think the first and most important thing is to build a website. Which, surprisingly to me, I know a lot of people in academia who were like, “Wow, you have your own website. That’s so cool. I wish I could do that.” And I’m like, “Well, you can. You can set up a website in one day. It’s not very difficult.” Yeah. So, building a website is the first and most important thing you can do to make yourself look like a professional freelancer. And that is another thing I discuss in my course. I take you through step by step, how to buy your domain hosting and set everything up, and what the important information you should put on your freelance website to make yourself look like a professional. So, that’s the first step.

09:02 Courtney: And then the next thing that you should do is use networking and cold pitching to get clients. Because there are a lot of freelance websites out there that you can get on where you can apply for jobs and stuff. And I’m not kicking that. I think that’s great also. And I do recommend that you do that, but you won’t get really high-paying clients from those kinds of gigs. You want to first start with networking. And even if you don’t have anybody, you can’t get any clients through your personal network. That’s fine. You can do it through cold pitching. And for me personally, over the years, the clients that I’ve had that have earned me hundreds of thousands of dollars are always the ones that I got through cold pitching. So, that’s what I recommend.

09:43 Emily: Yeah. You know, I actually went through a similar process. I don’t, I guess, identify as a freelancer, I identify as a business owner. But I went through a similar process when I started my business, which is how do I let people know that I’m available for speaking engagements and the other work that I was doing? And so I went through several years as I was building my network where I was cold emailing people. So, I know I don’t really love to be on the receiving end of most cold emails. And so I don’t love to send them either, but honestly, that was the necessary step in the overall process. So, I did a few years of a lot of cold emailing, built up my network, got some responses from that. And now I have basically stopped that. I kind of only do warm-emailing or cultivating my existing network at this point. So, I like that I’ve moved past that, but I feel like it was a really, really necessary start to the whole thing. My business would not have gotten off the ground if I hadn’t just been reaching out to people and trying to start establishing that network. So, it’s not necessarily pleasant, but it is necessary.

10:46 Courtney: It is necessary. And I always found it intimidating in the beginning, especially because you can send 50 emails and not get a response on a single one of them. That’s just the reality of cold pitching. But once you get that one gig and then it earns you a bunch of money, and then it’s like, “Oh, totally worth it.” And you feel motivated to do it more. And so, it can be intimidating. But that’s another thing that for the people who sign up for my course is that they have email support from me. And so, I will help them out with any questions they have. So, if they want to start cold emailing, but they’re not really sure where to start or what to say, they can ask me about that and I’ll give guidance based on the experience that I’ve had over the years.

How Freelancing Enhanced Courtney’s Life

11:28 Emily: That’s actually really nice. Because I know one of the sort of major challenges when you’re starting a business or starting a side income, like freelancing could be at first, is not really having colleagues who you can talk with about the work that you’re doing. And so, that’s just a really great sort of addition, in addition to the excellent content in your course, is also to be able to have interactions with you to get that support, again, as you’re building your network of your peers who are also freelancing or doing other kinds of work like that. So, I find that really valuable. I’ve been part of a couple of communities and I love just, you know, some people process things by talking to other people and they want some outside input, and you’re providing that. So, that’s super valuable. Now that we’ve gotten those excellent nuggets of advice from you, let’s talk a little bit about you and your story. I know you gave a quick overview at the start of the interview as to how you got into this, but why don’t you dive into a little bit more detail about what freelancing has done for you?

12:30 Courtney: Yeah, so, I flew through my bachelor’s degree and flew through my master’s holding my breath. I did that all really young and then I was starting my PhD. By the time I started my PhD, I was completely burnt out. It was just, I don’t need to explain how difficult academia is to anybody who’s listening to this podcast, but yeah, it was just too much for me and I needed a break. And the thing that I always loved about anthropology, the one thing that I love the most about it was being able to do field work. But field work was something that I was only ever able to do, if I was lucky, one or two months out of the year. And the rest of the year was spent in a windowless office doing research and data entry and stuff like that.

13:17 Courtney: And so, I wanted to just have the field work experience without the office experience. I just wanted to do something different. And so I was like, “Okay, I’m going to move to my field site. I love it there. I think it’s great. And I want to go live there. How can I do that? I don’t know.” And so, I actually ended up talking to my mom about it, who she actually works online. And she’s like, “Well, why don’t you start freelance writing? You don’t need to earn a lot of money in order to earn a living, especially if you’re in Africa. So, just give it a go.” And so, that’s what I did. I dropped out of my PhD program. I sold my car, used that to buy a plane ticket, and I left and I started freelancing here in Ethiopia and I’ve actually been here ever since.

13:59 Courtney: So, that has enhanced my life a lot because I get 12 months of sunshine, which is really important to me. And I love the environment and I love the culture and learning languages. And so that location-independence was really, really valuable to me for my mental health and just my personal happiness. And then the other thing that is always important is money. So, I earn very, very good money as a freelancer. I didn’t the first year and a half, as I mentioned before, but once I figured out that I was worth it, I started demanding it and asking for it. And I got it. And I continued to get it every time I raised my rates. People say, yes, somebody says yes. You know? And so, that’s really important, especially compared to academia, unfortunately. After the first two years of freelancing, I started earning more money than my former PhD advisor earns. And they’re a tenured professor. So, that’s something.

Location Independence and High Pay Rates

14:58 Emily: Yeah. I want to explore each of those points a little bit more because they’re both super attractive. The first one, the location-independence, you explained how that played out in your life. It enables you to move to the place that you want to live at one of your field sites and have sort of your whole life feel a little bit more like what you enjoyed the most about your academic experience. And of course, if someone else wants to do that and wants to make freelancing the way they make it happen, that’s awesome. I can think of some other benefits, which is, as you know, academic careers and PhD careers, you don’t have a lot of control over where you live, especially if you’re in academia. But even if you’re just a highly specialized professional, there are certain industries that are concentrated in certain cities, and so forth.

15:44 Emily: So, there may be reasons related to your PhD why you want to stay in a certain place, and this freelancing can follow you wherever you go. Side note, I as a, what’s called a trailing spouse–so we live where we live because my husband’s job is here and we anticipate moving because my husband may be changing jobs from time to time and he’s highly specialized–I get to take my business wherever I go. So, I don’t have to start over in a new job every time I might need to move. So, that’s a real, real benefit that I see that location-independence. And then of course on the money side, because this is a personal finance podcast. So, commanding the high pay rates, getting paid very well for your time.

16:26 Emily: Not just for people like you who are doing this full time, but as a side hustle. If that’s the way this starts, or that’s the way you want to keep this as you move forward in your freelancing career, as well as your academic or PhD-type career. It’s really nice when you can make a good amount of money for not that much time invested. As a PhD student, for example, you might be able to work, I don’t know, two hours a week, five hours a week, some pretty small number, but still get a really, really nice amount of money out of that small, small side hustle. And when you compare that, when you’re thinking about hourly rates to the other kinds of work that some PhDs do, or some people do when they’re still in graduate school or PhD training, it’s really nice, right?

17:10 Emily: To not have to work so many hours and also to have maybe a more like stimulating type of work, intellectually that is, yet something that is different probably from what you’re doing as your main day to day job, if this is still a side hustle. I think that’s really attractive in terms of having balance in your life. It’s awesome that you’ve been able to command these high pay rates and put together this full-time career, making a very nice income from Africa, from where you wanted to live. And I definitely want others to consider following your tracks.

17:44 Courtney: You were saying that this is like a full-time job for me, which it kind of is. But a lot of other people who listen to your podcast are people who are in academia to stay and they would like to have some additional stream of income to add on top of that. So, one point that I would like to make is that I actually do not work full-time. I work maybe 15 or 20 hours a week. But I actually still earn a full-time income because I get paid well. And this is something that I choose for my personal life because I have three foster kids and I homeschool them. And between that, and being a mom and, keeping my yard clean, I work 15, 20 hours a week on freelancing and that’s about it. And so you could do this as a part-time gig and still earn a lot of money. It doesn’t have to become like your full career. You don’t need to invest a hundred percent of your time in it. I don’t even invest a hundred percent of my time and I don’t even have another source of income. So, that’s something.

18:41 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for adding that. That’s awesome that you’re earning this like great, full-time income from part-time work. I actually also work part-time as well. I work about 25 hours a week and I’m quite happy with that balance actually. So, I really like that you added that point because the whole working 40 hours a week thing is so job-centric. That’s what our culture has decided–well, really not just 40, much more than 40 hours a week–is like the proper amount of time to be working. And once you start your own business, once you strike out on your own, all the rules are out the window, right? You can define what you want your work life to look like completely. And that goes both location and time and amount of money as we talked about earlier. So, I’m so glad that you added that. Thank you.

Endless Freelance Income: What to Expect

19:28 Emily: Let’s say someone is super excited about what we’ve been talking about. They want to start down their freelancing career in whatever field that might be in, and they want to sign up for your course, which again, they can do through pfforphds.com/freelance. And you can get the couple of bonuses that I created there. So, what can someone expect to find when they start your course?

19:49 Courtney: Okay. Well, first I guess I’ll explain who the course is for specifically. After I started freelancing, even in the first year or two I started freelancing, I got emails from people that I know. From people in my former cohort, professors that I know, people in grad school who heard, “Hey, I heard that you left academia and started freelancing. And I’d like to do something similar. Can you give me some advice?” And so, I’ve been giving advice to people for years. I get emails several, 10 or 15 times a year, I get an email from somebody, or I get a referral from somebody who’s in academia and they want to make the switch, or they want to add on to an additional stream of income through freelancing. And so, after years of basically kind of helping people just as like a side project, I decided to create a course to basically do what I was already doing, but do it in a more organized and formal way to help people.

Ch. 1: Intro to Freelance, Ch. 2: Identify Your Valuable Skills

20:47 Courtney: So, that’s what I created this course for. It’s called Endless Freelance Income, how to turn your liberal arts degree into an endless freelance income. However, even if your background is in science or any of the STEM areas, it can also be relevant to you. So, the course at the very beginning, it just introduces you to the online freelance world. So, if you don’t know the first thing about it, don’t worry. I will explain it to you in the course. That’s the first chapter. And then the next chapter, which I think is probably the most valuable one for people, is helping you identify what your most valuable and profitable skills are, from academia, that you can translate into freelance income. Through the mentoring there, I also kind of help people–people tend to overlook their skills. They think, “Oh, I guess I can write,” or like, “I guess I can do some data analysis, but I don’t have a degree in that. So, I’m not qualified to do that.” So, kind of just help people break that down. Imposter syndrome follows you outside of academia. I learned that the hard way. And so, just kind of help people to understand, no, these are valuable skills and you can utilize them.

22:08 Emily: What I liked about that portion of your course, what I noticed there is that you have worksheets in here, right? So, it’s not just like, I’m just reading all this material. It’s a very engaging format, right? So, you’re giving people some little tools they can use to do things like brainstorm about their own skillsets, which I totally agree with what you said. We tend to discount our own skills or our own areas of expertise unless we have a degree in it. That’s very important to us in academics that we have a degree in XYZ. But I know, personally, like my field is now personal finance and I don’t have a degree in personal finance and that’s okay. I’m still confident at this point that I am an expert in this area because of my long experience. But I think that for people who aren’t quite there yet, it is a little difficult of a hurdle to overcome. So, your course definitely helps with that.

22:55 Courtney: Yeah. And you know, same story for me, I’m an anthropologist, but I write in marketing topics, marketing and entrepreneurship. And I am an expert because I became one. And that’s it. And so, you can do it, too. That’s basically what the course helps you to figure out. So, once you’ve kind of broken down and pulled your skills out, then the next chapter teaches you about several different major freelance niches that you can get into. And I already mentioned before, there’s writing, editing translation, administrative support, design and creative, customer service, consulting, data science analysis, and sales and marketing are the ones that I go through. So, those are the main ones. And then it walks you through how you can look at your current skills and line them up with what each of these niches demand, or what they need.

How to Look Professional as a Freelancer

23:46 Courtney: And then it also helps you think about which one’s most interesting to you too. Because it’s not just about your skills, it’s also about what you want to do, right? And then you can choose your niche. And then after that, the course goes through how to make yourself look professional as a freelancer. One thing that I discovered when I left academia is that I needed to tone down my CV. What’s professional in academia and what’s professional in the online business world are very different. And so I kind of teach people how to make yourself look professional online as opposed to professional as a 10-page CV, or something like that. So, that’s the next step. And then the next thing after that is teaching you how to research your niche so that you can figure out what the going rates are in your niche, the going rates for somebody with your skill level, and just kind of also to weed through the riffraff.

24:47 Courtney: Because a lot of people out there, you know, they say $10 an hour or something like that. Yeah. You don’t need to pay attention to those people. So, to figure out how much you should be charging in the beginning. And then after that, the course takes you through step by step how to create your website, which I mentioned before. And then it walks you through what you need to do to land your first client. And that is the course in a nutshell, as it is right now. I plan to add onto it. Like I said before, I think cold pitching is important. So, one thing I plan to add on to it in the future is more information about walking people through how to set up a cold pitching scheme. And so, that’s something I plan to add onto it in the future. And the good news is that if you have access to the course, you buy it now, you’ll have access to all that future material as it comes up.

Bonus Content from Emily

25:34 Emily: That sounds awesome. As I said earlier, I read through the course prior to this interview, and it really breaks things down and simplifies them and doesn’t make it seem so intimidating to start down this path of freelancing. You really don’t over complexify anything. It’s very simple steps to follow, to get started. So, I wanted to mention for my audience, if you choose to buy Courtney’s course through my affiliate link again, pfforphds.com/freelance, I’ve created a couple of extra bonuses for you. So, one that everyone will receive who buys through my link is a free video training on how to budget with an irregular income, right? So, like I’m really confident, you go through Courtney’s course, you’re committed to this. Like you’re going to be starting down that path of having freelance income.

26:18 Emily: And you know, that’s a really great thing, but it can also pose some budgeting challenges. So, I’ve created a training that you’ll get for free when you buy the course on how to manage that. Like manage your finances when you have a side income stream that’s irregular, maybe growing into a full-sized income stream over time. So, it’ll help you with that. And then for the first five people who buy the course, so not everyone, but just the first five, I’m going to offer a free 20-minute financial coaching session. So, what I think will be really great about this is if you schedule this for maybe like two months out from when you start taking the course, it’ll be a nice little accountability point to meet with me at that time and say, “Okay, Emily, here’s the income stream. I’ve established it. I got my first invoice over here. I’ve gotten paid for the first time.” And so we can talk more about what you want to do with that money. How it’s going to help you reach your goals. How it’s going to fit into your budget. Do you want to be paying debt? Do you want to be investing it? So, we can talk about all that kind of stuff. So, that’s how I recommend you use that bonus if you’re one of the first five to sign up is schedule it a little ways out. So you actually have that income stream established by the time we meet together. And I’ll certainly be asking you, have you been implementing everything from the course? So again, pfforphds.com/freelance is where you can sign up and of course link through to find out more about the course from Courtney.

Best Financial Advice for Early-Career Academics

27:38 Emily: So, Courtney, we’ve come to the end of the interview. Thank you so much for what you’ve shared with the audience today. I think it’s been excellent advice and thank you for telling us more about Endless Freelance Income. So, final question that I ask all my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early career academic or maybe recovering academic like you?

28:00 Courtney: My best advice would be don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Something my dad told me when I was 17 years old and I didn’t know what it meant at the time, but now I do. So, even if you’ve got your dream job, even if you’ve gotten that research position or that tenure track job or whatever, you never know what’s going to happen in the future. That’s something we’ve learned this year in 2020, I think. And so, having an additional stream of income is really valuable. And I know that’s what Emily talks about all the time on her blog. And the thing about freelancing is that there’s no risk in starting and giving it a try. And you can just work on it in your spare time and you can build it up over time in whatever time you have. And if you don’t have time to work on it, you don’t have time to work on it. And it doesn’t hurt you to work on this and build up this extra stream of income. You don’t have to be like me where you leave your job and leave your country and change your whole career. I think that all academics should be doing something on the side, some kind of freelancing, blogging, something. So, that’s my advice.

29:06 Emily: Yeah. I totally agree. You know, not all the eggs in one basket can apply it to a lot of different areas, but certainly when it comes to your income, having a job or even being in graduate school means you’re dependent on another institution to decide to continue to give you work. But the advantage of freelancing is that you spread that around to a lot of different clients and it’s much less risk. Yeah, one client drops off, no big deal. You can supplement that by hustling up a few new clients. But if your employer decides they don’t want to work with you anymore, that’s kind of a devastating like life thing. So, excellent, excellent advice. What I also like about what you said is that if you do the work, for instance, by going through your course. If you do the work to establish yourself as a freelancer, and you devote even something like an hour a week to it, like I mentioned earlier. As long as that income stream is established and in a field like freelancing, it’s something that you can decide to turn up or turn down as you need in your own life.

30:00 Emily: So, for example, if you have an unfunded summer, you know, some people–again, you mentioned 2020–some people in 2020 have late in the game discovered that they don’t have summer funding in the way that they thought they would. Yes. Their funding will pick up again in the fall. It’s not like they’re going to drop out of graduate school and get a full-time job or whatever. But for a few months, the income that they thought was secure is not there. So, once the situation is upon you, it’s very difficult to scramble and kind of fix it. But if you’ve already established that one hour per week freelancing job, then that’s something you can ramp up or ramp down as your life allows, as your money situation requires. So, I just think that’s a real advantage to establishing yourself. Even if you’re not going to do it, like you just said, 15 hours a week to make the equivalent of a full-time income. So, great, great advice. Courtney, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It was a real pleasure to talk with you again.

30:54 Courtney: Thanks so much, Emily. Thank you.

Outtro

30:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Qualify for a Mortgage as a Graduate Student or PhD, Even with Non-W-2 Fellowship Income

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In this episode, Emily interviews her brother, Sam Hogan, a mortgage originator with Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at USA Mortgage) who specializes in PhDs and PhD students, particularly those receiving fellowship income. Sam relays what it takes to qualify for a mortgage in terms of credit score, income, and debt load, including the special way deferred student loans play into the calculation. He details the unusual strategies he has learned over the past year of working with PhD clients to help them get approved for mortgages, even with non-W-2 fellowship income. At the end of the interview, Sam shares why he loves working with PhD home buyers. Over the past year, Personal Finance for PhDs has referred so much business to Sam that he has become an advertiser on the podcast.

Links Mentioned

grad student PhD mortgage

Teaser

00:00 Sam: It’s always best for a PhD student to be as proactive as possible. I’ve seen letters with three years of continuance, but they’ve reached out to me after one semester has passed. Now they only have two and a half years of continuance, where someone, if they had reached out a year earlier about their future, and how they’re planning to purchase home when they were in a new area, that is the perfect slam dunk way to do it.

Introduction

0:33 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 5, Episode 17. And today, my guest is Sam Hogan, a mortgage originator with Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage) who specializes in PhDs and PhD students, particularly those receiving fellowship income. Sam relays what it takes to qualify for a mortgage in terms of credit score, and debt load, including the special way deferred student loans play into the calculation. Sam details the unusual strategies he has learned over the past year of working with PhD clients to help them get approved for mortgages, even with non-W-2 fellowship income. At the end of the interview, Sam shares why he loves working with PhD home-buyers. Over the past year, Personal Finance for PhDs has referred so much business to Sam that he has become an advertiser on the podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with my brother Sam Hogan.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:34 Emily: I’m welcoming back to the podcast today. My brother Sam Hogan, who is mortgage originator. He sells mortgages. And Sam was actually on the podcast before in Season Two, Episode Five. It was while we’re recording this on April 12, 2020 and he was last on about a year ago. At that time, we were talking about how someone with fellowship income can actually get a mortgage — non-W-2 fellowship income because tis is a tricky thing that we talked about in that episode. So now, as I said, it’s been a year since that time, Sam’s handled a lot more mortgages of this type and so he knows a lot more about this process now. So I thought we’d have him back on for an update, basically, and a little more background on getting a mortgage as a graduate student or postdoc or PhD. So, Sam, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming back on. Will you please just tell the listeners a couple words about yourself?

02:28 Sam: Thank you for having me, Emily, and Happy Easter from the east coast. Yeah, I’ve been working with PhD students now pretty heavily over the last 12 months. The company I work for, Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage), is licensed in all 50 states. I’ve had the opportunity to read, review, approve, sometimes deny, these special candidates while they’re looking for their options for home-ownership.

[Sam’s Nationwide Mortgage Licensing System and Registry number: 1491786]

Basics for First Time Home-Buyers

02:52 Emily: Thinking about someone who is probably probably a first time home-buyer doesn’t necessarily know a whole lot about the process of getting a mortgage, and of course is concerned maybe about their their income, and are they really going to qualify and all these factors — what are the factors that go into a mortgage application? And what are the the ranges, that would be acceptable for those different factors?

03:16 Sam: Okay, so generally speaking, we’re looking at a risk profile and the ability to repay. For the borrower, having a over 700 credit scores for conventional, now about over 640 or 660 for FHA loans.

Different Types of Home Loans

03:32 Emily: Okay, you just dropped the terms conventional and FHA — what’s the difference between those two?

03:37 Sam: Yeah, so FHA is your original first time homebuyer program. It’s backed by the government and it’s designed for everyone to qualify for it, if you have decent credit and decent income. Conventional is preferred because it’s going to have a lower monthly payment, and the private mortgage insurance will drop off automatically. You should have over 680 or higher credit scores to go conventional and the income ratios are a little tighter. So it’s the better loan to qualify for and it has better terms throughout the whole 30 years, or whatever your loan term is.

04:16 Emily: Okay, so FHA is a little bit easier to qualify for, because it’s sort of designed for first time home-buyers, but it’s a less preferable loan in the long term. And so if I remember correctly, a lot of people who have FHA loans for a while they then end up refinancing to a conventional type of loan a little bit later on, to get rid of that private mortgage insurance.

04:38 Sam: That is correct.

04:39 Emily: Okay, great. Okay, so going back to the the lending standards you just mentioned, like credit scores, what else goes into an application package?

04:49 Sam: Yeah, I want to just touch on our current world situation and the lending standards are changing right now. And they’re changing because everyone is in the same boat regarding a possible change or disruption in income, slowing income for a certain amount of time, so be sure to talk with an expert and their specific requirements because this will change from bank to mortgage company to a larger credit union or financial institution. These are uncertain times, so you’re going to have some fluctuation and differences from lender to lender, but you want to work just as we said before, you want to work with someone who’s keeping you in mind and your goals in mind.

How Credit Scores and Debt Impact Home Loans

05:32 Emily: Yeah, okay, great. I totally agree and we should re-emphasize that like we’re recording this in mid April, things could be different by the time we publish it, things could be different a couple months down the line, so definitely just talk with someone right away. You mentioned credit scores, but I know also, your income, of course, plays into how much of a mortgage you can qualify for. Can you talk about that a little bit?

05:53 Sam: The common rule of thumb is people will qualify for four to five times their annual income. Now that will depend also on how much debt they’re carrying, and how much they’re putting from their savings into downpayment. But that’s a pretty safe estimate. Some people who are completely debt free will qualify six times their annual income, up to. Something else lenders experience a lot is, um, people doing their own due diligence and crunching the numbers, but we have systems and practices that do this quickly, more accurately, and can give you better results, so I would say talk with someone early and have them do the work. And then after you get their feedback, run your numbers to double check and maybe have some questions for them. We want to be able to work for you, and there’s no obligation to just have a few conversations and have someone explore your options.

06:48 Emily: Yeah, that sounds good. How does that play into that because I know a lot of PhD students do have significant debt loads from maybe undergrad or a master’s degree or something like that. How does debt affect the package?

07:03 Sam: Debt is not bad. It’s good to have things on your credit that have positive history, whether that’s a student loan you’ve paid off or currently paying off, revolving credit cards. You will run into issues, if you have absolutely no debt or debt history. I strongly recommend everyone, even against their pride, get a credit card. Don’t exploit it but use it regularly, pay off regularly. You want to have established credit, especially for a young homebuyer, because they might not have the 10 or 15 years of other types or forms of debt that someone who’s in their 30s or 40s might have.

07:49 Emily: Yeah, I definitely agree with establishing a credit score and having a strong credit history. But I’m just wondering, you mentioned earlier about the size of the mortgage and how debt can affect that. Solet’s say there’s someone who’s holding a good amount of debt. Does that affect like the ratio of the amount of mortgage they can take out?

08:06 Sam: Absolutely. Let me put it in some simpler numbers. If you’re bringing in $3,000 a month, all your credit cards, new house payment, maybe your car payment or gym membership, all that cannot add up to more than $1500 dollars of your income, We take your gross income and if you’re over 50% of that debt ratio, that’s a “Hey, better luck next time.” Even better situation is to be under 43%. Under 43% of your monthly income to debt ratio, is what Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae require, currently. Now this could be used to change, sometimes annually, sometimes quicker than that, but under 43% and better is a very good place to be in.

08:55 Emily: That makes sense. Yeah, so the total amount of debt payments you can have per month is limited and the mortgage has to fit in. To be approved for a mortgage, it has to kind of fit in around those other debt obligations that you already have.

09:09 Sam: Correct.

09:09 Emily: Okay, yeah, that definitely gives us something to kind of get our hands around when someone’s deciding, like, is it even worthwhile for me to approach Sam or another lender about possibly applying for a mortgage? I know you said earlier, just ask, that’s the best thing to do, because you guys can run the numbers better than than we can outside of the industry. I had one more question about student loans, because while student loans are in deferment, how does that play into that 43% that you just said. Because if they don’t make payments, does that just like not count at all? Or how does that work?

09:43 Sam: This a very specific guideline detail that changes, just letting you know Emily, and for conventional loans, and FHA loans, it’s both different. A rule of thumb: if your student loans are in deferment, you have to take the remaining balances and calculate 1% of that, and we factor that into your debt to income ratio. So if you have $100,000 in student debt, and we’re about to calculate a potential thousand dollar payment, even though you’re not making payments on them, that could stop your deal. Okay, so brings me back to letting an expert look at it.

10:19 Sam: Also, sometimes when the lender pulls credit, the way the credit populates, it looks like they’re making payments on their student loans. But really, they’re in deferment, so all those payments have to be switched. This is why when people run the numbers themselves, they might think, “Oh, no, I can’t do it.” But lenders know what it takes to get it approved. And I did want to touch back on the debt to income, it’s best for people to know first that you want to be under 43%. If that’s 42.98%, that’s still two thumbs up. But as soon as you’re over the 43%, some of the loan terms can change and make it stricter for you to buy.

10:56 Emily: Gotcha. And I also want to emphasize that just because you qualify for a mortgage of a certain size, or just because your debt-to-income ratio fits onto that 42% or whatever, that doesn’t mean you have to buy a house that that’s expensive. So these standards are for the lending industry, they’re not necessarily the advisable thing on the personal finance side. So just keep that in mind. We’re talking about basically how to qualify, not whether this is a good idea for your finances overall to have that high of a, an amount of debt per month. I just want to add that in there from the personal finance side.

What If You Don’t Have a Typical Situation?

11:33 Emily: Okay, Sam, so thanks for running down those broad strokes criteria. If someone doesn’t meet one of these, is there any recourse? Is there anything else that can be done if they still want to go through with a purchase?

11:47 Sam: Don’t give up lenders in general, we’re in the process of approving loans. We’re not in the business of denying people we would be out of business. So try and try again, I would say, because I have had PhDs students who have finalized their transactions with me been denied by two other lenders. The tip I can give to some of these people exploring their options is be willing to over document things for any uncertainty the lender might have. If there’s some variables in your income, explain to them that “Hey, this is all under the same advisor. I’m working in different areas, different years, but it’s under the direct supervision of x and he can provide you a letter saying that I’m here for five years under his supervision and it’s common for students in my place to continue to receive their funding. Please let me know if you need any other confirmation from my supervisor.” But yeah, recourse I would just validate how good of a borrower you are: I have great credit. I have the downpayment. I have guaranteed funding.

12:52 Sam: And you always can strengthen a file with obviously a cosigner. You can have a non occupant co bar family member, even a friend, who also is hopefully in good credit standing and has income to cosign on the loan for you. That’s not a forever thing, you can refinance them off the loan. But what I’ve found out in my years in this business is, there’s always a way to make it work if you keep working at it. Some people run out of options, and while they’re in school, it’s a funky time in their life, but that doesn’t mean that you’re not going to be a homeowner in a year or two years.

13:33 Emily: Yeah, gotcha. I actually was thinking specifically about co-borrowers because that was another example that we had on the podcast. My interview with Matt Hotze, he bought a home in Durham, North Carolina when he was at Duke and he bought his first year there and he had his parents, or maybe one of his parents, as his co signers and that enabled him, because his income was, low — one graduate student stipend. He was able to get into a larger house than he would have qualified for on his own. He actually had a three bedroom house. And then he rented out two of the bedrooms. So he was able to house hack, had no problem paying the mortgage because he had reliable renters. And yeah, it all worked out really well for him. So he just needed that little bit of help at the beginning. His parents, very fortunately, were able to provide that to him, and it was kind of a rosy story after that point, but that’s what he had to do to qualify for the mortgage.

14:27 Sam: A cosigner, sometimes can solve everything, except for poor credit. But strength in numbers. You can have up to four people on conventional loan application. Have I done that ever? No. But is it possible? Yes. So yeah, I mean, if you’re having some difficulty, your loan officer, if you’re brainstorming with them, one of their first solutions is have a cosigner. A cosigner is a very simple fix. If you have to pivot your approval because you have gone through the process, you didn’t get approved on your own and your adding a cosigner on your contract, I would say give your lender about 10 days and you should be in good shape.

15:08 Emily: Gotcha. I’ll add in one more time. This is the “how to qualify for a mortgage” talk, not “is it a good idea to be a cosigner or to have a cosigner”. Totally separate conversation.

15:19 Sam: A client of mine that’s closing this month who listened to your podcast…I don’t want to reveal too much about his purchase, but we’ve been given the approval and at the start, we ran the numbers a few different ways. He was like “With a cosigner, what’s my payment? Without a cosigner how much is my cash to close?” And we were on the fence for a little bit but we were still in the process. So while he was under contract, I was still able to give him scenarios and options. We eventually decided with his deposits and everything that was already being credited, his cash to close was low enough that he wouldn’t need to have a cosigner. So it’s not set in stone at the start. Yes, it’s always better to have your ducks in a row. But the lender is flexible. We always can pivot for the buyers needs. And I also say that in the buyers defense. If something’s going wrong with the house, the lender can help you get out of the loan on your finance contingency, maybe if your home inspection is past. So there’s different ways we’re always here willing to help.

16:25 Emily: Yeah, that sounds really good.

Commercial

16:30 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

Tips for Home Loans with Non-W-2 Income

17:15 Emily: Okay, so let’s narrow down to the the scenario that we talked about the last time we did an interview, which is about a graduate student or postdoc with fellowship income, with non-W-2 income, and that a lot of lenders don’t understand how to deal with that. You’ve been working with these types of clients quite a bit over the last year. And so you have really figured out some things that how to make these loans work in some cases and what will not work in other cases and maybe in those cases, a co-borrower or something like that would be needed. Can you just tell me a little bit about, you know, this particular weirdness of non-W-2 fellowship income and how you make it work?

17:54 Sam: It’s definitely a tricky income. How I help make it work is I support all the variables within the fellowship income. I show that it’s the same field of study or field of work that they previously in. Especially in the offer letters, they usually always contain a phrase if the student remains in good standing, and the underwriter can say, well, that’s too much of a variable, we can’t accept this income because there’s too many variables. Well, I say well look at her transcripts, look at his transcripts. They’ve always been in good standing, literally forever. That’s why they were one of five students selected out of 400 applicants to get into this program. Yeah, it takes a little bit of storytelling, and the presentation is important, so it’s okay if someone who doesn’t have W-2 income, we treat other incomes just as fairly, but you have to know how to present it, how to over-document it, and if it’s too uncertain at the start, most lenders have a scenario desk you can reach out to who will give you some early feedback without going completely through the application process, completely through the loan process, and still having a little bit of a question mark about if you’re really approved. I’ve had our scenario desk, give me pushback on certain files, and I just asked, How can I support that variation or the uncertainty that you’re seeing in this letter because I can provide what you’re looking for most likely, I just need to know what that is.

19:38 Emily: Yeah. So I think if I can kind of zoom out from that a little bit. First of all, one of the things that you talked about in the last interview was that non-W-2 fellowship income is not going to qualify for an FHA loan. It’s just completely off the table. It’s only going to be a conventional loan. And what you’re talking about now is saying, okay, you know, PhD student or postdoc, you’re showing me your offer letter and you are looking for certain things that offer letter, like the income and also the number of years of guarantee, sometimes that’s in there as well. And then you’re saying, Okay, well for all the things in the offer letter that are maybe a question mark to the underwriter, you have now learned how to recognize some of those things, and you can start providing additional supportive documentation, that is asking the student or postdoc, okay, well send me your transcripts. Okay, well send me whatever it is, your work history. I don’t know what those things are. Can you talk a little bit about that guarantee? Because I know the guarantee is a very important factor when we’re talking about non-W-2 income.

Loan Types for Non-W-2 Income

20:41 Sam: Yes. So I want to answer your questions in the right order. One of the main critical points for this type of income is that it’s not recognized by the VA, Veterans Administration, FHA. It’s not recognized by USDA, and it’s not recognized by Fannie Mae. Your most successful application and loan approval is going to come from a Freddie Mac conventional loan, okay. Now you can do as little as 3% down for that conventional loan. But this is the key point that only Freddie Mac recognizes this income, per the lenders approval. Why these PhD students are not going to approved their first attempt with their lender is because it’s per the lenders approval, the lender can’t document it and approve it with their underwriter, then Freddie Mac will not take the loan.

21:40 Emily: So what you’re just saying there is that you now know having worked this type of income, this mortgage type is off the table. This mortgage type is off the table. This is the one that is potentially successful. And what you have to do is get your underwriters that you work with to approve that loan and then Freddie Mac will take it on, will approved it. What you have figured out is these little tricks and document support and so forth that need to happen for the underwriters that you work with, which presumably would be the same elsewhere, except they’re not necessarily as knowledgeable about this particular type of income.

The Importance of Offer Letters for Non-W-2 Income

22:15 Emily: Let’s talk more about that. I know that you’ve mentioned to me before, I think you mentioned in the last interview, that for this non-W-2 income, normally underwriters, lenders for W-2 income, they presume it’s going to continue for at least a while, even though we all know you can lose a job at any point. But for the fellowship income, they for some reason, don’t presume that it’s going to continue and they want to see a certain length of guaranteed fellowship time.

22:41 Sam: Yes. For conventional loans, we’re looking for three years of continuance of income. Now, I know it’s not fair because my job doesn’t guarantee me three years of employment in the future. That’s not the typical contract for all employment, its employment will usually. For conventional loans we want to see three years. I actually have a example that I’ve written up. It’s a mix of a few different approval letters that worked, that I had some success with clients in the past year. And I will say briefly that if your approval letter is more than three pages, there might be too many variables in your offer to get an approval.

23:36 Emily: You’re saying an offer letter, like the offer letter you get when you start grad school or start a postdoc position. This is going to be your stipend this along goes on for. This is a typical document, like instead of having a Form W-2, this is what a fellowship recipient would send to you. They would send you their offer letter and so what are you looking at in that offer letter that is like yeah, this is going to go forward or no, this might be a problem.

24:00 Sam: Yes, so what we’re looking for is the continuance of income, we want to have three years. We want it to state that you’re being provided health insurance, because that’s a really good sign shown you’re actually an employee, you’re not just a student. It’s okay for it to have a few variables in it, like remaining in good standing or making satisfactory progress towards their doctoral degree. That’s a good phrase in there, that’s fine. But when you have layers and layers of variables, like you know, making satisfactory progress towards our doctorate, you must take these courses or get this exact GPA or higher in these courses, must have approval from their supervisor for a continuance into a fifth year. Those are things I’ve had to get more information on because the more variables, the more uncertainty it makes the underwriter feel. And so that’s where it comes back to the presentation of the loan.

An Example of An Offer Letter

24:58 Sam: “I’m pleased to inform that you been awarded a fellowship in the first academic year beginning September 2019. In subsequent years, you’ll be supported by research and teaching assistantship. This Fellowship Award gives you deserved recognition for your accomplishments to date, as well as added independence to stipend and exploring your research interests for the first year. For the academic year 19-20, the stipend will be $3,345 for nine months. For Summer 2020, the stipend will be $3,475 for three months. This means you receive an annual stipend of $40,530. In addition, the award pays your tuition health insurance and health services fee. We are committed to continue this financial support for for up to five years, as long as you remain a PhD student in good academic standing.

25:51 Emily: Yeah, so what I’m hearing and I think what the listeners will hear is, that’s first year fellowship followed by W-2 income for the remainder, four years guaranteed.

26:02 Sam: Right.

26:03 Emily: That’s great. So that means in your world, that person would qualify for a mortgage during that first year, even though it’s fellowship, because their letter says, Yeah, it’s one year of fellowship, but you’re going to have after that this W-2 type income,

26:17 Sam: Correct. The most success I’ve seen with the PhD community are the simple letters that are less than two pages with little variable, that will show more than three years of continuance. And that’s a very simple approval for us.

26:35 Emily: And that’s whether that is fellowship income, or W-2 or a combination. If that’s what the offer letter says three years or more. That’s straightforward for you.

26:46 Sam: Correct. And that is where I’ve seen the most success with these doctoral candidates.

26:53 Emily: But still going back to your earlier point of if that’s not what a particular individuals letter looks like, still reach out to you, or another lender, because maybe with enough supplementary documentation, it could still go through, but it’s just going to be a little bit more of a process.

27:09 Sam: Correct. And, I mean, when I get connected with some of these department supervisors, I let them know, “Hey, this is what we’re looking for. Can you simplify this offer ladder for me, because we’re looking for something a little less complicated?” And I do like to tell my PhD applicants that, “Hey, I would love a shortened version of your personal statement. I want to be able to know a little bit more about where you’ve been, where you’re going.” And it always helps to tell a little bit of a story.

27:40 Emily: That is really interesting. That adds a little more detail to what you said earlier about the story and the presentation being what matters. That’s really interesting to me that you that you might include something like a version of a personal statement in this package that goes to the underwriter, that’s really interesting.

27:59 Sam: At the end of the day, I know I said this in the last episode, the last time I chirped in, but it does come down to one person’s decision. If the underwriter is comfortable, they’re going to approve you. If they’re not comfortable, they’re gonna want more documentation, or a cosigner, or something else to make it, you know, aboveboard.

28:20 Emily: Yeah, that clarifies. Thank you.

Final Words of Advice

28:23 Emily: Sam, is there anything else that you’ve learned about this fellowship type income that would be helpful to the listeners, with respect to getting approved for a mortgage?

28:32 Sam: I’ve learned that working with the PhD community are some of the best clients I’ve ever had.

28:38 Emily: Yeah, you’ve told me that before, and I really love to hear it!

28:42 Sam: Yeah. It’s really nice to work with people who are planning. It’s always best for a PhD student to be as proactive as possible. I’ve seen letters with three years of continuance, but they’ve reached out to me after one semester has passed, so now they only have two and a half years of continuanc, and that is a big problem. Whereas someone, if they have reached out a year earlier about their future, and how they’re planning to purchase a home when they were in a new area, that is the perfect slam dunk way to do it. Unfortunately, I’ve had to let some PhD students know that it’s not going to work out because their continuance, they’re under three years. And that’s going to be one of the major roadblocks. So talk to someone early, tell them you’re interested in a Freddie Mac, conventional loan. If they can find the right way to document their income and approve them. It’s happened more often in the last two months, I would say, with clients reaching out at this time of the year, when, if I had been talking to them six months ago, I could have had them approved.

29:52 Emily: Yeah, so actually at this time of the year, April 15 is decision day. Everyone has to decide what grad school they’re going to, or they’re supposed to decide. So if a PhD student is looking at that fellowship income in their offer letter, it says three years, they need to reach out to you sooner rather than later before that clock starts ticking, if they’re interested in purchasing within that first few months or first year or whatever, of being in graduate school. They need to reach out earlier. Thank you for saying that.

How To Reach Sam Hogan

30:21 Emily: Sam, you have not been particularly self promotional during this interview, and I appreciate that but I do want to say that you have been working with this type of client — people receiving fellowship income, also other types of PhD clients over the past year. I think you’re working really hard for them and that they should go to you, at least among getting a few different voices in their life, they should come to you. So will you please tell them the best way to contact you?

30:46 Sam: The best way to reach me is definitely by cell phone. Text is preferred right now because there’s a lot of volume going through the industry. My cell phone number is (540) 478-5803. And then my work email is a great line of communication, also. It’s sam.hogan@movement.com.

31:15 Emily: Yeah. And we’ll have all that contact information in the show notes, as well. Sam just mentioned, I was surprised to learn, but even during this social distancing period, the mortgage industry is hopping, because interest rates are so low. People are really refinancing a lot right now, even if they’re not doing necessarily new purchases at the moment or not going into that process at the moment. But, you know, maybe in a few months or a year, whatever things will return to a more normal time and you’ll be able to move forward with lots more purchases.

31:47 Emily: Sam, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. And thank you so much for working with this population and being willing to, as a personal favor to me, to investigate this and take this on. I think it’s really fruitful and it’s been really great for my audience, so I really appreciate you

32:00 Sam: Thank you for having me on Emily. Always a pleasure to work with you and the PhD community. I’m just here to help, so if you need help text me, call me bother me on the weekend. It’s all good. I just want to make sure you all are seeing some success here while you’re getting your doctorates.

32:16 Emily: Excellent. Thank you, Sam.

Outtro

32:18 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

Three Financial Strategies Every Early-Career PhD Should Employ (with Kate Mielitz, PhD, AFC)

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Kate Mielitz, an assistant professor at Oklahoma State University who holds a PhD in financial planning and is an Accredited Financial Counselor. Kate gives her top three financial tips for early-career PhDs: celebrating financial wins, no matter how small they are; asking questions regarding your pay and benefits; and saving in advance so you can say “yes” to networking opportunities, from a meal or drink with a colleague to conferences. Kate also tells the story of a recent financial challenge she encountered that is highly relatable to anyone in academia. Due to her preparation, what could have easily been a financial disaster became just a hiccup.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

financial strategies for PhDs

Teaser

00:00 Kate: It is okay to make a financial mistake. I want that very, very clear right now. We are human. It is only money. Yes, you heard it from me. It is only money. How do we use it? It’s the tool that we’re using like the hammer or the screwdriver. If you make a mistake, you pick yourself back up, you carry on, you figure it out. What’s the mistake? You ask the questions of yourself and figure out where you went wrong. You figure out where you need help going forward, and you take proactive steps. You’re going to be okay.

Introduction

00:43 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode five and today my guest is Dr. Kate Mielitz, an assistant professor at Oklahoma State University who holds a PhD in financial planning and is an accredited financial counselor. Kate and I discussed the top three financial strategies early career PhDs should employ: celebrating financial wins, no matter how small, asking questions about your pay and benefits, and planning to spend money on networking. Kate also shares her recent and pretty big financial mistake, which will be highly relatable to anyone in academia, and how she weathered it. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Kate Mielitz.

01:34 Emily: I am just delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Kate Mielitz, who is an assistant professor at Oklahoma State University and an accredited financial counselor. So we have an expert on the show with us today, for once. It’s wonderful. Please introduce yourself to the audience. Tell us a little bit more about how you got where you are and what you do.

01:55 Kate: Yes. Thank you so much Emily for having me on. This is a thrill for me. Let me give you the deep background first. I have 20 years combined experience, a bit little more than that, in collections, bankruptcy, fraud, financial counseling and education. I’ve been an accredited financial counselor for a little over 10 years. And the accredited financial counselor can be associated with and compared to the certified financial planning designation. The accredited financial counselor focuses on some of those foundational pieces, like, do you know how to budget? Do you know how to save? Do you have enough insurance? Do you know how to appropriately use credit? Whereas the CFPs look at wealth growth and wealth management. So my area of expertise is helping people get a solid financial foundation that works for them, that’s specific to them and their financial situation. Then I have my PhD in personal financial planning from Kansas State University and I work in the family financial planning program in the department of family development and family science at the Oklahoma State University.

03:06 Emily: Yeah. And again, it’s such a pleasure to have you on today, Kate. So, because you are an accredited financial counselor and a PhD in this area, and again, an expert, I am basically going to turn the reins over to you and let you direct where you want this to go. I asked you to give me your top three financial strategies that early career PhDs should be using. Let’s talk through those.

Financial Strategy #1: Celebrate Financial Wins

03:28 Kate: First, I want you to remember before I give these three strategies that it’s always dangerous to give me this much leeway, Emily, so thank you for that. But remember that no matter what I say, you need to be true to you. So ground this in your financial reality. And when I say for example, with my first strategy, always celebrate the progress forward that you make on your savings goals no matter how small, I mean that quite literally. If that means that for one month to the next, that all you can get in that savings account is an extra penny — celebrate it. It’s the small victories that then help us get into the bigger victories. Do we want to focus on just putting pennies, nickels, and dimes in savings? Not if we can avoid it, but when we are early career, when we are in graduate school and coming into postdoc and coming right up, it’s not always easy. Finding a way to commit to savings and then doing it always celebrating those small successes is so very, very important.

04:29 Emily: Yeah. I’d love for you to elaborate on the point you were just making about how, okay, even if it’s just a penny, it’s still worthwhile. It’s still something to celebrate. Even if the dollar $10 a hundred dollars, whatever scale we are at, it’s worthwhile doing. And can you talk a little bit about the reasoning behind that? Like why it’s worthwhile to save even if it’s just a few dollars? Because some of my audience members, it can only be a few dollars, if anything.

04:53 Kate: I have so been in those shoes. We could go forever on this, Emily. The fact of the matter is, any teeny tiny amount that you can put forward is still a teeny tiny amount that you’ve put forward. I have worked with families who are experiencing homelessness, who are out of work or supporting a family on minimum wage. So I get working with small amounts and the reason that we focus on the small amounts is because those are bite size. How do we eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Therefore we save a penny, a nickel, a dime, a quarter, a few bucks at a time to make that small progress. So then we’re more conscious about it. The more we’re thinking, “Oh, you know what, this is 34 cents that I got back in change — I’m going to put that in my savings account.” And then the next time, “Oh, this is 56 cents, I’m going to put that in my savings account.” Maybe we can’t do it every time, but as we think about these pennies, whether we collect in a change jar or it’s just, “okay, I made progress,” it’s gonna stick in there and we’re going have these little tickle reminders that it’s like, “well, I was successful. I was successful before. I can be successful this month.” And we’re not focusing on, “Oh my God, I only put 20 bucks in savings. I should just give up now.” Never give up! These teeny tiny amounts add up. Americans throw away billions of pennies a year. I mean, it’s mind blowing. So stop and think about what you can put forward.

Kate: One real quick caveat I wanted to share with you, Emily, on this idea. I remember watching an old Family Feud episode and the host asked, “we surveyed a hundred people on the street, what is the smallest dollar amount you would dive back in the trashcan to retrieve?” I was blown away that the number one answer was a $10 bill. I mean, I was like, are you kidding me? I have gone for 26 cents and I’ll do it because to me those small things make a difference. And I mean, whatever happened to the $1 bill and the $5 bill? Those, those are very valuable, as our quarters and dimes and nickels and pennies. So start small, save small, build as you can and you can do it. So celebrate that small progress.

07:11 Emily: Yes. Oh my gosh, I love this point so much. And one thing I wanted to add to what you’re saying is, one of the most valuable things that I think, and this is I think another rephrasing what you’re saying, of it sticks in your head when you start saving, you know, rounding up to the next dollar, whatever it is. I think what most important thing that it does is it changes your self identity to one of “I am a saver.”

07:32 Kate: Oh yeah, absolutely.

07:33 Emily: Doesn’t matter what the amount is. If you become a saver in your own mind, that’s what’s going to create that habit change that carries into the future when the dollar amounts can be bigger. But you have to start with that identity change. And the best way of doing that is to actually enact savings. Even if it is that small amount.

07:52 Kate: You’ve nailed it, Emily. I mean that’s it. It’s really about phrasing it. When you got your first published article, even if you were fourth or fifth author, didn’t you then say, I’m a published author? Well, yeah, the same thing goes. I’m a graduate student, I’m a successful graduate student. Oh my gosh. I’ve landed my first job. I’m a postdoc, I’m an assistant professor. Own these things. And yes, even if it’s pennies, you are a saver. So now let’s keep going. Absolutely.

08:22 Emily: Yeah. And going back to your original point of celebrate — what are some ways that you can celebrate without spending the 34 cents that you just saved?

08:31 Kate: Absolutely. Well, it’s kind of like weight loss. They say never celebrate weight loss by going out to eat. So we’re not going to celebrate saving by spending, but we’re going to maybe, and this is so key, especially for graduate students in early careers, but give ourselves permission to just kick it. Give ourselves permission to sit back and worry about the hustle, not worry about the side hustle, it exists, and just breathe. Whether that means taking an hour for ourselves and watching an extra show, or that means potluck in with a friend. You already have the food in the, in the cabinet. So let’s have somebody over. They bring a piece, you bring a piece. Nobody’s really out of pocket. Talking about it with friends. Call Emily, send her a message, send me a message. Say, “Hey, listen, I did it!” Celebrate those small things. Tell your mom and your dad. Sometimes it’s just a matter of not physically doing something, but just acknowledging it. Looking at yourself in the mirror and say, dude, you saved. That’s empowering and it’s exciting and it is a way celebrate.

09:41 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the word celebration maybe can be boiled down to just acknowledgement in some positive way. It could be as small as that or it can be bigger, if you have the means and the time to do so. But the key is do something that’s out of your routine to acknowledge that you accomplished something because you really did.

10:00 Kate: That’s right.

Financial Strategy #2: Ask Questions About Your Finances

10:01 Emily: Okay, let’s move on to your second strategy.

10:04 Kate: Second strategy: ask questions about money. Now, if you are in graduate school and you don’t have access, for example, to a retirement plan, maybe it’s not human resources that you’re going to. If you’re early career definitely be seeking out human resources to ask questions about your insurance plan or your retirement plan and what those things mean. But don’t ever think that you have a question that is too small or too easy or so-and-so is going to think I’m an idiot if I asked this. Listen, Emily and I would not be doing what we are doing if any question were too basic or too small. That’s how we thrive, right? Emily?

10:46 Emily: Exactly.

10:47 Kate: So if you don’t know who to ask, reach out to Emily, reach out to me. We are more than happy to answer any financial question you have because it is your financial health that you need to be focused on. So what resources? No, we’re not going to rescue. Absolutely not. But we’ll get you a list of resources. We’ll point you in the right direction. Sometimes it’s just as simple as, well does this mean that they’re going to match this and that’s a yes or no. So ask the questions and never be scared that “Oh, I’m a graduate student or I’m a PhD, I should know this.” No, not necessarily. That’s why they give PhDs in personal financial planning because other people don’t know. So that’s what I’ve got mine.

11:29 Emily: Yeah. I’ll say especially for, so obviously anyone who is an employee anywhere, you’re going to have an HR department or an HR person, or something. I say person because my husband works for a startup and they do not have an HR department, but they have a person, part of whose job is to handle this kind of thing. So there is someone, if you are an employee, who you can ask questions about the benefits that you’re receiving or even something as simple as, and this is a big question that we’ll get into later, “Hey, when’s my next paycheck coming? What amount is it going to be in?” Those, those are not even trivial questions for, let’s say a graduate student or a postdoc who’s changing how they’re being paid from this system to this system, et cetera. Things can fall through the cracks. It is very worthwhile to keep on top of these questions.

Emily: If it’s not an HR person who’s available to you, go to someone in your department, like the administrative assistant for the graduate program that you’re in or there is someone there. Even if they can’t help you with the question directly, they’re going to be able to point you to the next step. Definitely keep asking questions at your institution until you get the answers that you need around your benefits. And like Kate was just saying, you can go to outside people like me and like her if you have non institution specific questions. One I get all the time is “am I eligible to contribute to an IRA?” I can answer that question for you if you give me a few details about you know, how you’re being paid.

Financial Strategy #3: Plan to Spend on Networking

12:47 Emily: Now, what’s the third third strategy?

12:49 Kate: The third strategy is to plan to spend money networking. We talk a lot about planning to pay our rent. We talk about planning to pay our car payment or our car insurance, but we don’t always talk about planning to spend money socially. And, no, I’m not talking about going and kicking it with the girls or the guys after work, but that can sometimes be a networking tool. But I’m talking about really digging in and you know, once a month, every couple of weeks, having that networking lunch. Who is somebody that you met at an orientation or somebody who your major professor introduced you to, or somebody who you happen to find out via a Google Scholar search has the same area of interest as you in research, but it’s across campus in a whole different department. Reach out, invite that person to lunch. You can go splits down the middle, you can pay, you can switch off and pay as you go, but plan to spend that money. Because the old adage is that it’s not what you know, it’s who you know. But truly it’s what you know and who you know, you’ve got to have both pieces in there and that is so insanely true in academia. It’s what you know and who you know.

14:02 Emily: I think it’s really, really smart, as you’re bringing this up, just to acknowledge that first of all, networking is an important part of career development at every single stage. Never think that you’re too early on to start networking. You are a person worthy of knowing and you should introduce yourself to other people. So plan for it at every single stage of your career and just acknowledge in advance that you’re going to have opportunities come your way and you want to be able to say yes to them immediately without being concerned about where’s that money going to come from? You want to be able to accept a lunch invitation when you’re not really sure if you’re going to end up paying or the other person will, or you want to be able to accept taking a few hours drive to another institution to do a meeting. Anything like that, where you might end up being financially are responsible for, you don’t want to have to say no to that because you’re not prepared. So I really love the idea, and tell me what you think about this Kate, of having, so I’m really into targeted savings accounts or sinking funds, so having a sinking fund or target saving account that’s labeled networking and there’s enough money in there for whatever you think might come your way.

15:08 Kate: You know Emily, I was just thinking in my head, “Oh, I want to make sure that I talk about the budget sheet that I use.” Whether you call it budgeting or spending plan or targeted savings. The fact of the matter is you’ve got to have a plan for those dollars and cents and yes, having that emergency savings — I’m going to remind you, emergency savings comes first — but then secondary to that, what else do you need to have that money set aside for. On our budget sheets, I tell people all the time, I tell my students, I tell my clients, I remind co-counselors all the time — it’s not my money, it’s your money. So what is your plan for it? Where do you intend to spend it? And write it down. If I’m going to spend a $500 a month on entertainment, which I don’t do, but if I was going to spend $500 a month on entertainment, as long as my budget is balanced and I have the dollars and cents to do that, I can do it.

15:58 Kate: Now, when we’re talking about planned networking and we’re talking about spending money consciously to do this, I’m not talking 50 bucks a month. I’m talking maybe as little as $20. But like you said, Emily, maybe it’s a few hours drive to another institution. Or maybe we’re talking about a conference. It’s really big in our industry, and so we’ve got to take the time to find the money. Now it can be very difficult to do on small salaries so seeking out what funding is available through my department, what grant funding, what fellowship, what scholarship monies might be available. Ask. Even if you, graduated, you’re in your first position as an assistant professor or you’re a postdoc, don’t think that that precludes you from opportunities to get assistance to travel. Ask. Worst case scenario, the answer is no, we got nothing. Okay. At least you know, and then going forward you can put those dollars and cents away toward that. But I’m still going to say try and keep that $20 in your pocket so that if you get the opportunity to say, “Hey, let’s go grab a Coke” or “let’s go grab, you know, a quick bite to eat and talk this through,” you’ve got it. It’s not always easy to do, so please do not hesitate to ask a qualified professional for help. How do I put this budget together on these teeny tiny little pennies that I am paid? And there are resources available to help you do just that.

17:23 Emily: Absolutely.

Commercial

17:28 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Saving tips for larger networking events

18:38 Emily: One thing I just wanted to follow up on about the conference travel, because now we’re not talking about a $20 lunch, right? We’re talking about potentially thousands of dollars, between fees and travel and the lodging and all of that. So of course, totally want to underline, ask and ask and ask if there’s any money available from the sponsoring organization, from your department, from your university, from anywhere you get funding, outside scholarships you can apply for. There’s many different potential sources of funding for travel awards. That’s something we’ve covered on the podcast in the past. But I want to say that in some fields, the money is less prevalent, right? And so in some fields you may be able to say, “Oh, of course I’ll be able to find funding for that conference.” And maybe you can keep, you know, just a smaller amount of money available for your incidental expenses while you travel. But in some fields you may know, “well, I may get funding once or twice during my PhD, but really I should be attending a conference every year.” Then, it’s a scary thing, but you just need to acknowledge that that is going to come up at some point and start preparing for it.

Emily: Because the thing is, I think what happens with a lot of people with conference travel is that they end up just with a reaction to it. They act retrospectively instead of proactively about it. If you put a conference on a credit card and it’s $2,000, whatever, you’re gonna end up paying that over months or years and with interest and you may as well flip that around and pay it upfront into your savings over months and years and be gaining interest instead of losing interest. You’re going to end up paying for it slowly over time either way, if it has to come out of pocket and you can’t get it paid for, so just do it upfront instead of on the backend and you’ll come out much further ahead financially. I just hate it when I hear about students who have to forego these really wonderful conferences or networking opportunities because they can’t find the funding, they don’t have the money saved. And it can be a real blow to your career potentially. So it’s just something that’s worth building into your budget, as you were just talking about, early on, you know, from the beginning.

20:36 Kate: And let me, if you don’t mind Emily, I’d like to follow up on, on the comment you made with the credit card. Credit cards are amazing tools when used appropriately. We’re not going to use a hammer to put in a screw, we’re not going to use a credit card to finance everything. But if you know that you can utilize some points off that credit card and/or, emphasis on the and, you can pay that off, say for example, six months from now I will have this conference paid off rather than just making the minimum payment, but you can pay twice or three times the minimum payment, even if you can’t front load the conference because you found out about it last minute, or Oh my gosh, I never thought about it this way and I’m coming up on it. Don’t be afraid to use the credit card as a tool, but I just want you to be careful and I want you to be conscious and I don’t want you to think about, “Oh, it’s okay, I’ll carry a minimum balance for the next however long.” No, no, no. Go into it with the forethought to say, “all right, I’m going to pay this off in six to 10 months. This is how I’m going to do it. And at the same time, I’m going to be saving for next year’s conference.” Again, you are not walking this path alone. You have resources. Ask, ask, ask, ask, and you will get answers and you will find help to help you make these decisions and figure out how you’re going to use these dollars.

22:04 Emily: Absolutely. I feel I have to at this point put in a bid for my own services, which I do offer one-on-one money coaching. And so if you, one of the listening audience members, wants to work with me on these kinds of issues around budgeting or around paying off debt or investing for the future or whatever it might be, please contact me and I will be happy to, you know, have a short call with you to talk more about that. You can find more details about that in the show notes. And Kate, I don’t know if you offer individual services at this point or if you are, uh, you know, strictly in your academic role.

22:37 Kate: I do offer services. You can find, contact information for me and other professionals like me at afcpe.org and you can just search, find a counselor. I think it’s either find a financial counselor or find a financial professional in your area. I happen to be in Oklahoma, but there are many of us throughout the country who work specifically with students, graduate students, postdoc, early career, the broke, the wealthy, across the gamut. So we are available afcpe.org.

23:09 Emily: What I love about that AFCP database, and also if you wanted to search for a CFP, similarly, is that the professionals identify themselves by their areas of expertise or types of people that they prefer to work with. And so for example, for me, I’m not an AFC, but I specialize in graduate students, postdocs and early career PhDs. So probably anyone listening, your,within my area of specialty. But let’s say you had a different situation like you are in the military or your spouse is in the military, or you’re dealing with maybe an inheritance due to the death of a parent or you know, there are all these other special situations that might come up that maybe that’s your primary identification, not as a graduate student or postdoc, and maybe in some other area. That’s what I love about these databases that you can really search and find who is looking for…you are someone’s perfect client, right? And you can try to find that person through one of these databases. Thanks for adding that a resource, Kate, and that’ll be in the show notes as well.

How a AFC Deals With Financial Challenges

24:05 Emily: Okay. I think we’re ready to talk about your financial challenge that you have had recently due to your academic position. This will be very relatable to many people in the audience.

24:15 Kate: Okay, so let me lay it out really quick. Miscommunication is what this boils down to. Misunderstanding. Me, even as a financial professional, not asking the right question. Not full information being passed down the pipeline. So I wanted on the board, nobody is at fault here, but if somebody has to take it, it’s probably me. I didn’t ask the right questions, didn’t think about it the right way. But what happened is this: I have a nine month contract and I wanted to get paid over 12 months from the start, but because of when I did my onboarding paperwork, I couldn’t do it, I had to wait until the next spring. Well, the way I understood it was that when I did my 12 month pay, my pay would become effective July 1st, the new fiscal year of this year. Well, I knew that I was going to be out pay for about a month, but it turns out that that’s not what the actual situation was. Yes, they would input the information, but my 12 month pay would not actually start until my next contract started. My next contract starts September 1st, my first pay September 30th. So instead of one month without pay, I’m four months without pay. Ouch. Just to put it mildly.

25:42 Kate: Fortunately, because by nature I am a saver, I am a scrimper, I have very little fun. My husband is just like, “Can we go?” “No, I got to put the money away. No, we can’t. No, don’t ask me again.” I put money aside and my emergency fund will be empty come payday because I’m still pulling from savings with his retirement, his disability money to pay the bills. But come September, we’re back on the horse. And so yeah, the end of September. So I’m eking, I made it, I had enough money set aside. I had, I didn’t even realize it at the time, but with small changes, I had three to four months in the emergency fund. I’m always shooting for six. We had had a lot of fun and relaxation prior so I could have tightened the belt a little bit more. We only made a few small changes. This has been a hiccup for us. Not a, “Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh,” but again, another learning experience.

26:45 Kate: It is okay to make a financial mistake. I want that very, very clear right now. We are human. It is only money. Yes, you heard it from me. It is only money. You set a hundred dollar bill on the table. You get up and walk away. Forget the wind. It’s not going to get up and walk its feet. How do we use it? And so it’s the tool that we’re using, like the hammer or the screwdriver. And so if you make a mistake, you pick yourself back up, you carry on, you figure it out. What’s the mistake? You ask the questions of yourself, you figure out where you went wrong. You figure out where you need help going forward, and you take proactive steps to fix it. You’re going to be okay. We’re okay. I’m going to be rebuilding my emergency savings over the course of the next year, because that’s probably how long it’s going to take to get things back into the groove. But that’s okay. I now have a plan of action and I lived through it. My family lived through it. Nobody starved. This is a good thing.

27:47 Emily: Yeah. I think that this issue that you ran into, again, for the people inside academia, I mean, I hope it hasn’t happened to you, but you probably know someone this has happened to you. They didn’t, as you were saying, didn’t fully understand the contract that they were signing, didn’t fully understand the timeline that the other party was working on. And you end up without — in your case, it wasn’t specifically without summer funding, but that’s how it sort of laid out — but many people will end up without funding for a summer or a semester or something, at some point in their graduate degrees. Hopefully not as a postdoc, although I have known postdocs that that’s happened to, that they go a lapse and pay for some period of time. But this is exactly what an emergency fund is for, right? The primary way you calculate how large an emergency fund should be is if I lost my income for three to six months, how am I going to pay the bills in the meantime? And that is exactly the kind of emergency fund you had so you were able to sustain yourself and your family through that period. But it’s a super, super relatable problem. I’m really glad that you brought this up because hey, if it happens to you as a graduate student, that’s a mistake that Kate made and so you don’t have to feel bad about making that mistake.

29:01 Kate: Don’t feel bad at all!

29:04 Emily: People with PhDs in personal financial planning can make this kind of mistake too. So don’t feel bad about it. But the point is just to the greatest extent possible to prepare in advance for whatever comes your way. It might not be specifically this kind of lapse in income, but at some point you may have a lapse in income for a variety of different reasons. It’s a great reason to have an emergency fund. All kinds of other emergencies might occur and other great reason to have an emergency fund. As we were saying earlier, use that mindset of putting away even the small amounts of money. Start snowballing that account bigger and bigger and bigger, and over time it’ll eventually become a full-fledged emergency fund or whatever it is that you’re working on. Thank you for sharing that story, Kate.

29:44 Kate: Absolutely. And then when you do use it, like I’m in my position, I’m empty or I will be empty in about three days. Start over. And if that means that I’m starting small and I will, because my last paycheck when I was really focusing on building it, I was getting paid over nine months. Now I’m getting paid over 12 months, so my paycheck is going to be smaller. So my contribution to savings is going to be smaller. But that doesn’t mean that I give up. That doesn’t mean that I look at that and say “Oh, I’m never going to make it.” No, I am going to make it. Is there something I can cut out? Like, I don’t need to go downstairs to grab something to eat everyday. I can pack that sandwich, or you know, small things like that. The things that we hear, no matter where we go, here are easy ways to trim your budget. They are true. Not all are applicable, don’t get me wrong, but if it’s a $1.50 for the soda at the vending machine and you’ve got a cold Coke at home, grab it from home, stick it in your backpack and off to work you go. Small, teeny tiny changes will add up. That’s not just in contributions to savings, but also in decreases to your budget. The small make a difference, because gosh darn those pennies add up.

30:54 Emily: Absolutely. One last point that I wanted to make about this story and what you were just saying, is that if you do end up choosing to make some sacrifices to your lifestyle to fund a savings goal. For example, you’re needing to rebuild your emergency savings, it’s going to take a while. You’re going to have to do a few sacrifices in the meantime. Don’t think that that’s going to be forever. Don’t think that just because you have to give up your weekly lunch out, or whatever it is that you are in the meantime, it’s a temporary thing that you need to do to reach this goal. Once you have reached the goal, you can reevaluate. Is that something that I want to continue in that habit that I’ve created? Or is it time to add that spending back in now that I have a little bit more financial security. But don’t have the mindset that just because you make the cut for some period of time, it has to be forever. Things will be different in a few months or a few years and you can reevaluate at that point.

31:47 Kate: And also don’t be afraid to say, I can’t afford to do it this month. It is absolutely empowering to say I can’t afford to do it this month. Maybe that means that you don’t participate. Okay. But if you are honest with yourself and have the courage to say, I can’t afford it, I guarantee you the person you’re talking to is going to understand, because they have been there or maybe they’re there, but they’re hiding behind a credit card or they’re hiding behind borrowed funds. Listen, people, it happens and it happens all the time. So it is okay to say I can’t afford it. And yes, I know that point number three was the plan to spend money networking. Well, plan to bring a Coke and a sandwich from home and go meet on the bench. Go meet at the union and people watch. Go for a walk in network. You don’t have to have $20 every time if it’s not going to work. If it’s not in your budget, it’s not in your budget. But don’t think that the money needs to stand in the way of that networking.

32:48 Emily: Yes, absolutely.

How to Contact Dr. Kate Mielitz

32:49 Emily: Well Kate, this has just been a wonderful interview and I’m so glad to have met you and to be able to introduce my audience to you and you know, let them know a little bit more about what an AFC is and you know, what do you guys do? And so thank you so much for joining me today.

33:03 Kate: Thank you so much. It’s been an absolute thrill to be on today, Emily. I really appreciate it.

33:08 Emily: And where can people find you if they want to follow up about something?

33:11 Kate: People can find me on Twitter, @KateMielitz, and I have a sneaking suspicion Emily that you’ll put that in the comments. You can also find me on Instagram, @KSMielitz , or if you just Google my name Kate Mielitz and Oklahoma State University, it’ll pop right up and give you my university contact information as well.

33:35 Emily: Beautiful, thank you so much.

33:36 Kate: Thank you.

Outtro

33:38 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How to Combat the Negative Financial Attitudes We Learned in Academia and in Childhood

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In this episode, Emily interviews Cortnie Baity, a doctoral candidate in Human Development and Family Sciences at Florida State University and licensed marriage and family therapist intern. Cortnie’s dissertation is on how your upbringing influences your financial attitudes and behaviors later in life and how to effect better financial outcomes, specifically for African American families. Cortnie shares a framework from the literature of four money belief systems, three of which significantly correlate with income and net worth and two of which can become pathological. We discuss the financial messages PhDs absorb from academia and how those might influence financial attitudes and behavior. We conclude with Cortnie’s advice for PhDs who want to combat financial attitudes that don’t serve them well.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

financial attitudes academia

Teaser

00:00 Cortnie: I would suggest early career PhDs to take a financial attitude questionnaire and to gain additional insight to see what financial attitudes you resonate with the most and how they could be possibly subconsciously guiding on your financial behaviors and influencing your overall financial well-being.

Introduction

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode three and today my expert guest is Cortnie Baity, a doctoral candidate in human development and family sciences at Florida State University and licensed marriage and family therapist intern. Cortnie’s dissertation is on how your upbringing influences your financial attitudes and behaviors later in life, and how to bring about better financial outcomes, specifically for African American families. We discuss how financial attitudes form and how they translate into behavior. Cortnie shares a framework from the literature of four money belief systems, two of which can become pathological. We discussed the financial messages PhDs absorbed from academia and how those might influence financial attitudes and behavior and what PhDs can do to combat financial attitudes that don’t serve them well. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Cortnie Baity.

Will Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:25 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Cortnie Baity, who is a doctoral student, and she specifically has an interest in financial attitudes and how they develop. This is such a relevant subject for us. I’m so delighted that Cortnie reached out to me and that we’ve been corresponding and she agreed to come on the podcast. So Courtnie, will you please introduce yourself?

01:47 Cortnie: Hello, Dr. Roberts and hello listening audience. Again, my name is Cortnie Baity. I am a current doctoral candidate in the human development and family sciences PhD program. I am located at Florida State University. I earned my masters of science degree from the couple and family therapy program at the University of Kentucky, where I initially became interested in personal finances. Just a little bit of background about my areas of research, it includes family finances, personal finances, socialization processes, African American families, and minority mental and physical health disparities. The overall goal of my research program is to minimize any inqualities in mental and physical health, experienced by black families. In the way that I have chosen to go about intervening on health for black families is looking at how personal finances influences or undergirds some of those health disparities that we might be noticing in the literature.

02:52 Emily: That is so interesting. So exciting. Really, really glad that you’re working in that area. Can describe for us for just a couple of minutes, the dissertation that you’re working on, your specific research?

03:04 Cortnie: Yes. So my dissertation studies financial socialization in black American families, and its implications on financial wellbeing for young black adults. My primary hypotheses is that black young black adults experience asset and resource inqualities, in part because they receive minimal or possibly counterproductive training about finances. My goal with my dissertation is to do three things: document diverse types of family, financial socialization experienced by black young adults, explore the consequences of types of family, financial socialization for financial literacy and financial wellbeing, and then lastly, consider gender variation experienced in family and financial socialization and how it may have undesired effects on financial literacy and financial wellbeing. My overall hope for this study is to, in this study and in following research, will be to produce clinical strategies for marriage and family therapists like myself to help black clients improve financial management, which can help reduce asset and resource inequalities among black families. Personal finance has been demonstrated in the literature to be connected to mental and health outcomes, especially unfavorable mental and physical health outcomes. So I’ve chosen to focus my research on personal finance interventions to improve black health overall.

What is Financial Socialization?

04:40 Emily: Yeah, I’m sure the listeners know that this is a subject that I’m intensely interested in — how to improve financial outcomes among our population, the PhD population. And this is so applicable. It’s a great subject for me to learn about as well. You’re using the term family financial socialization. Can you explain that? Can you define that a little bit more? What plays into that?

05:03 Cortnie: Yes. If we think about socialization broadly, there’s a communication component, so it’s the sending and receiving of a social message, but it also includes the implementation and application of that message into the individual’s life. If we put that into context of personal finance, we’re looking at how families socialize their members surrounding personal finances. That includes how the messages and beliefs surrounding personal finances, including budgeting, world perspectives about money, and the economy and that influences an individual’s financial attitudes. There’s also a tie between financial attitudes or your perspective of finances and how that influences your financial behaviors. And then of course your financial behaviors feed into your overall financial well-being.

06:03 Emily: Yeah. So there’s a whole chain there and this is something that is being passed from parents and other family members to children, and it’s being propagated within families, as well as within society more largely. Can you give some concrete examples of maybe those communications or demonstrated behaviors?

06:23 Cortnie: Sure. One concrete example of a family financial socialization that you may witness in families is, for instance, when families, parents will distribute out an allowance to a child, and they say, “Hey, you know, you have this amount of money once it’s gone, if you want to buy things for your hobbies or if you want to buy a video game, that money is gone.” And so it’s socializing the child surrounding finances in the family social context. Some type of message is being transmitted over to that child. The thought behind family financial socialization is that the child not only hears that message from the receiver, but they start to internalize that message and start to make decisions about their environment around them, based on the message from the receiver. And in that case, whether the child internalize the message to save the money and let it stretch a little bit. So don’t kinda spend all your money on the most expensive video game because you know that if you want to go to the movies the next weekend with your friends as well, you won’t have anymore financial means until the next time that you receive an allowance. So that will be one concrete example.

07:47 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for that. That’s definitely an example of an intentional or an overt way that parents would communicate around finances to their children. I don’t know about you, but the family that I grew up in, the signals around finances were implicit. We did not talk very openly about this subject, but I learned a lot from my parents by example. So can you give another example of how that kind of communication would work?

08:11 Cortnie: Oh yes, absolutely. Gudmunson and Danes has a family financial socialization theory and they support the idea that the majority of family financial socialization happens through modeling or observation. So one implicit way that we learn about money is when our parents will take us to the bank with them. There is some type of message that is being sent to us that there are outside institutions that help us to manage our money. That would be one concrete example of family financial socialization. You’re with your parent, it’s in the family social context is not really being spoken we’re at the bank because I need them to help me manage my money, but it’s that kind of unspoken undertone. It’s an institution It’s associated with money. I see mom and dad go here. So those kind of implied messages are occurring in that kind of way.

09:16 Emily: It’s a really, really interesting example. It just reminds me of, well first of all there’s a large unbanked population within the United States, right? So there’s all kinds of children who are not getting that particular kind of message that maybe some other children are. Maybe the actual interaction the parent is having with the teller or the manager could be positive, could be negative. All kinds of differences there. And it’s actually making me think now. So I have two very young children. The older one is maybe on the cusp of being able to learn some money lessons if we were to overtly teach something. But I’m just thinking about how much financial stuff that I do that it just takes place digitally online. It wouldn’t necessarily be seen very easily by my children if I just choose to not do that stuff in front of them. So yeah, I don’t know. Going into the new generation, we might have to have different strategies around how to do the socialization, given the differences.

10:09 Cortnie: Very true, very true.

The Four Financial Attitudes

10:11 Emily: Okay. So that’s about how parents and families are communicating some lessons around finances, implicitly or explicitly. How the children are receiving those attitudes. Can you speak a little bit more about the connection between what you’re learning in your family and the attitudes and so forth that you develop and then how that translates to behavior? What the connection is between those two.

10:33 Cortnie: Personal finance psychology and marriage and family therapist scholars, Klontz and Britt have produced some studies that look at how financial attitudes developed and they suggest that trans-generational personal finance messages, typically learned in childhood, subconsciously influences the development of financial values and beliefs. And collectively these financial values and beliefs are referred to as financial attitudes. So Klontz and Britts specifically have come up with four distinct financial attitudes. One is money avoidance, money worship, money status and also money vigilance. To have these categories are important because some of them suggest a pathologic view of money that can have a negative impact on your financial behaviors in your overall financial well-being.

11:35 Emily: I love to hear a framework. This is great. Can you say a couple of words about what each of those four categories are so people can kind of say, “Oh, I definitely see myself here or there.”

Money Avoidance

11:45 Cortnie: Reiterating when I say a financial attitudes are important because certain attitudes for example, like money avoidance and money worship, have been demonstrated to suggest pathological views of money. Those who resonate with money avoidance attitudes may tend to believe that money is bad or that you don’t deserve money, and for people with this personality, money can typically evoke feelings of fear, anxiety, or disgust even. This is a financial attitude that is common among low income, younger, and single individuals because they typically have something going on with them where money is evoking these anxiety or stressor indicators for them. It has been demonstrated that typically those who are money avoidant produce, financial outcomes like financial well-being that are not as high as individuals who possibly resonate more with other types of financial attitudes.

12:58 Emily: Yeah, I definitely can see that. I mean, we can sort of imagine very easily that prototype person who is money avoidant. There’s probably, I don’t know if they’d be listening to the podcast, but there’s certainly potentially some of those within academia, within graduate students. Maybe not because of how they were raised, but then the environment that they’ve been put in, you know, since getting into training. We’ll talk more about that a bit later, but go through these other three categories please.

Money Worship

13:23 Cortnie: Money worship, more so those types of individuals, you would see indicators of that individual where they’re very central to their career. They’re very central to building wealth and things like that. It can be suggestively pathological. In the Klontz Money Scripts inventory, there is a cutoff score for what is kind of considered as like a clinical concern, a clinical cutoff score. If you go beyond that threshold, you will be considered possibly you need to look into it being an actual issue. Even if you resonate with, and I do want to say it is possible for you to resonate with several categories of financial attitudes. For a lot of people it kind of depends on the context. Like we talked about, being a PhD student. But going back to what I was saying with the, clinical cutoff score, there essentially are four different types of financial attitudes and worship would be another example of that. There’s literature that goes through the exact representations of the four financial attitudes and Klontz and Britt will be the scholars to kind of refer to that information in further detail.

15:05 Emily: Yeah, I would love it if you could send me a link to put in the show notes for that. Yeah. So I think money worship is another one where we can again, sort of maybe imagine a prototype for that. And I think that I, obviously I don’t know about this clinically for myself, but I have been very careful, mentally to not, because I think I have maybe some tendencies where I could fall into that category. Maybe not even tendencies, but just based on what I do, right? I talk a lot about money. I’m very careful to not allow myself to fall into that category.

Money Status and Money Vigilance

15:33 Emily: Can you remind me what the final two were and maybe give some examples? These were maybe more the non pathological categories.

15:41 Cortnie: Money status, it more so resonates with viewing money as a social status for yourself. And then also money vigilance is being careful with money. Those are two that are not as suggestive to pathological views of money.

16:02 Emily: Yeah. Okay. Thanks for that clarification. I’m seeing myself maybe in the vigilance category, for sure, and I hope the audience is starting to get an idea of where they might fall and what possible interventions might be helpful depending on where they are.

Commercial

16:21 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

How Financial Attitudes Can Affect Your Finances

17:25 Emily: Can you give maybe like a concrete example of how let’s say, a money avoidant person, a behavior that might result from that attitude?

17:33 Cortnie: I think that it kind of blends into our follow-up question of how does academia, how does being a graduate student, how does that influence certain financial attitudes. As we all know, being a graduate student is very expensive, yet graduate students often have very little income, unless you’re in a situation where you do have enough fellowships and scholarship funding to carry you throughout your entire program. Also, because graduate students are in the process of becoming experts in their field, they may feel like they do not deserve to get paid very much. Those kinds of experiences typically evoke fear and anxiety surrounding money, which could be suggestive that graduate students tend to have a money avoidant financial attitude. Of course, there are clinical cutoffs for that, as we discussed before, but some of those common experiences and feelings of being a graduate student, surrounding money, may lead to being category categorized as money avoidant.

18:52 Emily: Yeah, I definitely want to talk about for this for another moment, because I think this is going to be such a common experience for many people in our audience. Either that they’re currently in this space, they are currently a graduate student and experiencing some of these forces and attitudes or maybe that is in their past and it’s still something they’re working on because they still have some residual effect, mentally, from that time. I do think there are pervasive messages within academia that your passion should sustain you. You should not care how much money you’re making right now or in the future because you just love your work so much, none of the rest of that matters. It really plays into a larger attitude within academia. And I’m not blaming any person or institution. This is just like a mother culture kind of thing around “Well, you should just go ahead and put your life on hold while you’re in training. Nothing else matters aside from your training. Put your money on hold, put your relationships on hold. Other things in your personal life, your health, mental health, all that stuff is secondary to the all consuming goal of your research getting to a certain level, finishing your dissertation, whatever it is. Super, super unhealthy. Super, super unsustainable. I mean, maybe you can do that for a few months or a year, but for the five, ten, more years you might be in training it’s too tall of an order. And yet this is still the message that we’re all kind of marinating in within academia. Right? And so what I think I’m hearing from you is that these messages, maybe it’s not the family that we grew up in, right? That has a certain influence on us. But then our academic family is also having an influence. Does that make sense? Can you talk a little bit more about that?

20:37 Cortnie: That definitely makes sense because essentially what family financial socialization theory suggests is that our founding beliefs and values surrounding money typically come from the family system because that’s typically our first opportunity to learn in a social context. As you become 18 and you move away from home and you have more interactions with other socialization agents, like being in an academic setting, being around peers, being in a romantic relationship, that influences your personal finances as well, or how you’re being socialized around personal finances as well. It’s certainly a undertone, kind of an unspoken thing in academia that the main goal is to focus on getting your program or research to a certain level, getting through the program and graduating and the personal finance piece is often not really addressed very much, or the stressors that are associated with finances are typically not addressed unless you actually go directly to a personal finance specialist on campus that can help you to continue to fund your program. And not just your program, but your life outside of that. A lot of graduate students have full blown families. They’re married, they have mortgages and all kinds of things like that. So yes, academia can definitely put some stressors on your personal finances and your financial beliefs and kind of make you question “Should I be money avoidant because it gives me so much anxiety or possibly having the opposite effect of making you so money vigilant to the fact that you kind of become OCD about just budgeting down to the dime every single semester so that you can have all your expenses covered.

22:43 Emily: Yeah I think there’s the component of what we sort of implicitly absorb in academia about work being the primary thing. But then there’s what you were just saying, the actual real life in your face stressors – the stressors associated with being academia, not being paid enough for where you’re living, having to pay tuition fees, the budgeting issues. These are all not just in your mind, these are real problems that are happening to students. And I think what I’d also love you to comment about is the influence that these experiences and hearing these messages can have on a young adult, right? We’re just talking about okay, the family is the first place where we start to form these attitudes. But I would imagine that a graduate student in their 20,s maybe straight through college and to graduate school is going to have a different set of experiences than someone who starts later on after working. Maybe they are married, maybe they’ve had just more time to build up what their beliefs are and their attitudes around their own finances. Can you comment about that a little bit?

23:46 Cortnie: So I’m not speaking from my empirical research theoretical standpoint. This is just my own personal perspective. But my belief is that when young adults go straight through graduate school and they don’t really get that real world application personal finance management, they kind of start at a deficit when it comes to personal finances as an early career PhD, or if you’re graduating fresh out of a master’s program or early career master’s degree recipient. You don’t have those opportunities to really grapple and absorb what it means to budget with an income and a salary, especially not at the level that you will be earning outside of a graduate program. Then also maybe not being privy to the realities of the consequences of not having enough personal finance related literacy. Not knowing about how credit works, how student loans may impact credit, how that may later impact your purchasing power when it comes to purchasing a new home or a car. And then of course, it has implications on your romantic relationship. Having to have not so easy conversations with your partner that “Hey, you know, when it comes to my personal finances, I’m kind of behind the curve”, especially if you have a partner who did not take the graduate school route, who did have opportunities to kind of build up their financial literacy through work experiences and budgeting that adults do who do not decide to go straight through graduate school. So yes, absolutely, going to graduate school for us to sit significant amount of years, not participating in the workforce as like a traditional adult would so to speak, definitely can leave a graduate school student at a little bit of a deficit when it comes to managing their personal finances. Unless you’re a business major, typically you do not get that background working knowledge about personal finance management.

How to Work with the Money Attitudes You Have

26:11 Emily: Yeah. This is exactly the space that I’m trying to step into. On that subject, once a person recognizes, “okay, academia is feeding me some toxic messages, it’s giving me all these stressors,” what do you do with that? How is it that you can change financial attitudes. Or maybe it’s from the upbringing as well. Maybe you recognize, “okay, my family was not super healthy around this, can I change my own way I approach these things?” How do you actually do that?

26:39 Cortnie: Me, personally, as I’ve gone throughout my graduate school education, I have become more immersed in the subject area of personal finances, becoming more aware of my own financial attitudes and financial behaviors that do not serve me well, and I go by the saying of try to practice what I preach in my clinical practice. And as a therapist, I suggest to all my clients, the first step of changing an unwanted behavior is to acknowledge that it’s problematic and explore its origins. If you recognize that you’re just taking out way too many loans, it’s just not feeling right to you, kind of explore the fact you’re going against what one of your financial values or beliefs are, which is to keep your loans to a minimum, and explore where the origin of the motivation to do that behavior is coming from. Once you have acknowledged that the behavior is problematic, explored its origins, from there I will suggest seeking out resources to support the desired behavior change. Personally what I did for myself is one, I made personal finances, I was very intentional incorporating that in my area of research. And also, my niche is actually surrounding personal finances, mental health, physical health and family relationships. And so it kind of forced me to get immersed in the personal financial literature, become more financially literate in ways that were supportive of my career, but also in my personal life. So I actually did the accredited financial counseling education requirement through Texas Tech University. I did that program back in this past spring and I learned a wealth about personal finances that not only legitimized myself as a marriage and family therapist, that her niche would be personal finances, but also my research. I will say another huge impact that it had was application into my own personal finances. Recognizing that there’s an issue with the financial attitude or the behaviors that you have become accustomed to in graduate school, exploring what the origins are, like why did you even start doing these behaviors, and then seeking out resources, and there’s a wide variety of ways of doing that, but just becoming more knowledgeable about healthy money management.

29:44 Emily: I can definitely see a parallel in myself to what you’re saying. I didn’t necessarily know that what I was trying to do was changing my attitude so that my behaviors would follow. But I can see, from my upbringing, I grew up with a one one parent who was like a spender and one who was like a saver, and sort of absorbed the spender mindset from one of my parents. And that was something when I finally had my own paycheck coming in, I realized my small stipend cannot support the spender inclinations that I had based on my upbringing. And so that was something that I had to, as you were just saying, recognize, “okay, this is going to put me at some dissonance here.” This desired behavior and the financial realities, I realize, “Okay, well that I learned that from my parent. That doesn’t have to be what I do. That’s just what my parent behaves that way, I can be different.” And as you just said, seeking out more and more resources and support around the positive behavior that I wanted to affect, which was not spending a lot of money whenever I wantet to. And so the resources that I went to at that time were personal finance books, the personal finance blogosphere, which now has morphed into podcasts and blogs and Reddit and all these other wonderful places where you can go for resources. So I really sort of started to see into the lives of people who I could recognize as models of positive financial behaviors and start to, um, enact what they were doing in my own life. And if I would be so bold, I will say that the Personal Finance or PhDs community is one of these places where you can learn some of these positve behaviors, from me and from the guests who I interview and from the articles I have on the site and there’s lots of ways you can get involved. In fact, please, if you’re not yet on my mailing list, get on my mailing list because I’ll be sending this great content your way every week.

31:35 Emily: Cortnie, thanks so much for pointing that out. I think we’re coming to the end of the interview here. If someone wants to follow up with you, maybe they have a question about something you’ve said today or maybe they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I need Cortnie in my life. I need more Cortnie”, how can they get in touch with you?

31:51 Cortnie: For those listeners out there who are interested, I’m always happy to share whatever information I have and chat with you. So, um, I can be best contacted at my email. It’s csb11d@my.fsu.edu. I am also listed on the Psychology Today website as a psychology today verified marriage and family therapist intern. You can look their website up and then as we’ve discussed previous to actually starting the interview, you’ll leave the actual website in the notes. Then also the agency that I’m currently contracted it as a marriage and family therapist intern, Better Living Solutions in Tallahassee, Florida, and we’ll also leave information for their direct website. Those are two additional mediums to gain contact with me.

32:57 Emily: Yeah, it’s so excellent. All that information will be in the show notes as Cortnie just said.

Final Words of Advice

33:00 Emily: So last question here, Cortnie, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD?

33:07 Cortnie: In the same spirit of the conversation we’ve been having, I would suggest early career PhDs to take a financial attitude questionnaire — one example is the Klontz money script inventory — and to gain additional insight. If you have some inklings but you’re not exactly sure if you’re at that clinical cutoff for certain financial attitudes, to see what financial attitudes you resonate with the most and how they could be possibly subconsciously guiding on your financial behaviors and influencing your overall financial well-being.

33:47 Emily: Perfect. And can we add that link to the show notes as well?

33:49 Cortnie: Absolutely.

33:50 Emily: All right. Perfect. Oh, Cortnie, this is such a wonderful interview. Thank you so much for providing your expertise on this subject.

33:56 Cortnie: Thank you so much for having me Dr. Roberts, I enjoyed talking with you.

Outtro

34:01 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.