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Money Mindset

This Graduate Student Doesn’t Sweat the (Financially) Small Stuff

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In this episode, Emily interviews Keiland Cooper, a fourth year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of California, Irvine. Thanks to his inquisitive nature, Keiland has developed a financial philosophy that he has applied to his own financial management practices since his days as an undergraduate. Through focusing on the big picture, he has increased his income as a graduate student and right-sized his housing and transportation costs, which has enabled him to accumulate cash savings and invested assets. You won’t want to miss Keiland’s insight at the end of the interview into the optimal money mindset for a graduate student.

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Teaser

00:00 Keiland: We’re all PhD students. Think of it as like a research project, right? There have been times when I’ve sat down and like analyzed my financial data in Python, right? It’s, you know, it’s kind of fun to sit down and play with the spreadsheets and add things up. Most of us are nerds here, and finance can be a very nerdy topic. So, it doesn’t all have to be scary. And certainly, all of us are getting PhDs, so we all have the aptitude in one way or another to learn about these topics. Even though some of them might seem really complex at first, they certainly don’t have to be.

Introduction

00:35 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 4, and today my guest is Keiland Cooper, a fourth-year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of California, Irvine. Thanks to his inquisitive nature, Keiland developed a financial philosophy that he has applied to his own financial management practices since his days as an undergraduate. Through focusing on the big picture, he has increased his income as a graduate student and right-sized his housing and transportation costs, which has enabled him to accumulate cash savings and invested assets. Don’t miss Keiland’s insight at the end of the interview into the optimal money mindset for a graduate student.

01:44 Emily: My Office Hours are back for this fall! About once per month, I’m hosting a free Zoom call to which you can bring any financial question or topic that relates to your journey as a PhD or PhD-to-be to discuss with me and the other attendees. These sessions are limited to four people each. Register through PFforPhDs.com/officehours/. I look forward to speaking with you there! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Keiland Cooper.

Would You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:28 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Keiland Cooper. He is a fourth-year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of California Irvine, and we are going to talk today about some mindset shifts and some strategies that he’s found really useful for his finances during graduate school. So, Keiland, welcome to the podcast. Would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

02:48 Keiland: Hi. Yes. It’s really great to be on, and I really admire a lot of your work that you’ve done. I found it really helpful. And part of the reason why I wanted to be on is I think it’s really important and really useful to share, you know, each person’s experience, because we can all learn from it. And I’ve certainly learned a lot from everyone else’s. So, I thought it’d be useful to contribute.

03:11 Emily: Well, yeah, thank you so much for volunteering!

03:13 Keiland: So, I’m Keiland Cooper, as you said. I’m a fourth-year graduate student at University of California Irvine. My PhD’s going to be in neuroscience, and so I study how the brain learns and remembers at the neural circuit and ensemble level. I’m also interested in artificial intelligence and the co-founder of a nonprofit called ContinualAI which is the largest international nonprofit for our branch of neuroscience.

Financial Mindset at the Start of Grad School

03:40 Emily: Oh, wow, okay. Didn’t even know that. Great. Let’s talk about your financial picture when you started graduate school. Like where were you, maybe both literally with your numbers and then also with your like mindset?

03:54 Keiland: Yeah, yeah. So, I knew going into a PhD that, in many ways, it was going to be a big opportunity cost. A lot of friends that I were graduating with from undergrad were, you know, starting with six-figure salaries in a lot of cases. And so, I knew kind of from the get-go that it was going to be a big adjustment from that. But I think telling myself that I’m not doing a PhD obviously for the money or even for what the money could be down the road because that is not necessarily the case, but for other reasons that I felt really important about. So, I absolutely love what I do. I love where I’m doing it at, and love who I’m doing it with. And that was really important to me, and I knew I probably wouldn’t be as happy doing other jobs than starting the PhD. So I think, you know, right from the get-go, that was really, really helpful, at least for me to kind of justify, you know, that kind of change in income. And then everything else just kind of falls out from that.

04:56 Emily: I am really glad that you articulated that perspective. I don’t think that most people go into PhDs for the money, even if they do expect like a better-paying career later on, maybe, than what they could get with their bachelor’s degree. It’s definitely a passion-driven decision. But, I think as I talk about in many other places, and we’ll see during this interview, that doesn’t mean your finances are neglected entirely. We’re still going to focus on them a bit and do the best we can with what we have at that point. But it’s so important to have your priorities straight and your reasons for why you’re embarking on this. I love that. And did you go straight from your undergrad into your PhD program?

05:32 Keiland: I did, yeah.

Debt and Savings After Undergrad

05:33 Emily: Did you have any student loan debt, for example, or any savings coming out of undergrad?

05:38 Keiland: I was really lucky that I didn’t have to take student loans by the end of college. And so, that was a function of, you know, some family savings. And also I worked most of, I mean I worked all four years of college. So, I was really lucky to not have that. But I also lived really very frugally in undergrad, as most people do. I think what was really important for me to do that was I wasn’t living frugally without a goal. So, in my head, I knew that once I saved up, say, you know, three to six months of savings that if I had to drop out or if I couldn’t get a job that I would be able to live or pay rent or do something for about three to six months was like my first goal. Then I would start to feel okay, and I would, you know, not regret paying for other things that maybe I didn’t necessarily need or something like that. So, I think that was really important that, you know, living frugally kind of comes naturally to me, but something certainly didn’t and it is kind of a harder choice. And so, having that kind of goal in mind of, you know, one, it’s not forever, right? Because like once I get this and how I get that and could be strategic about that, at least once I kind of have that number in mind, then I’ll be okay.

07:04 Emily: I think there’s a huge difference between setting the goal for yourself, not even really articulating it as a goal of just, I just need to get by.

07:14 Keiland: Yeah.

07:14 Emily: Right? I’m not going to take out student loans. I’m going to work enough so that I don’t take out student loans. I’m just going to get by. And that is one level, and that is an accomplishment, obviously, to not have to take out student loans. But you went further than that and wanted to provide for yourself a safety net. Did you get to that point by the end of undergrad? Did you have that three to six months of savings?

07:33 Keiland: Yeah, yeah, I did luckily. And that was really important I think from moving in, maybe like towards the end of senior year and then going into to grad school to kind of feel a little bit more comfortable with, you know, meeting new people and going out and not having to worry about, you know, I can’t go out with my friends because I don’t really, you know, spend money this week or something like that. But generally, I think once I kind of had that, I started feeling more comfortable. Not only with just spending money in general, but also thinking about, you know, now that I have that safety net, what’s the next one? Well, probably retirement, so I’m going to open a Roth IRA. And once you have, you know, start spending the extra money have filling up that, you know, bucket or cup. Or if I was in industry, it would be a 401(k) and then Roth IRA to max.

08:23 Keiland: And then once you have that, then you can think, okay, well, you know, I have enough money, I’ve maxed out both my, you know, emergency savings, you know, six to 12 months, my Roth IRA, that’s maxed out. What’s next? Well, you know, I have some money left over, cash gets basically no return. The four big buckets are cash, bonds, stocks, and alternatives. So then, you know, you can start feeling a little bit more comfortable saying, I’m going to spend a little bit of money on stocks, not Roth IRA stocks, but just in general, you know, investing just so you can somehow try and beat inflation in these other things. And then starting to spend a little bit more money on that. Or, you know, I like to donate, and so donating money to certain charities. I have a little bit extra money, I don’t have to worry about, you know, if I give money, then I won’t feel as bad.

09:11 Keiland: And so, that’s kind of how I saw it, is that I have these kind of milestones and cups. And once I, you know, get more comfortable and safe, then I can start doing this next thing, and then I’ll have a little bit more cushion for the next thing. Which for me, as a very financially risk-averse person is kind of a good way to manage, I think, that risk. And at least in the back of my mind, yeah, I have that in case something happens.

Financial Knowledge Resources

09:39 Emily: What you just described about these different milestones and goals is very reminiscent of my financial framework that I teach through my seminars, which you probably haven’t actually encountered because it’s not really on my website. I saved that for the seminars, but yeah, very, very similar to that. So, it sounds like you actually have, or maybe even had, at the point of entering graduate school a pretty high degree of financial knowledge. And I’m wondering where you got that from? Because I think you mentioned in our prep materials that you’re like a first-gen college student, for example. So, like did you learn that from your parents? Or did you learn it from other sources?

10:14 Keiland: Yeah, so yeah, I’m a first-gen undergrad student and certainly a first-gen PhD student in my family. So, like I was saying earlier, a lot of the reason I came on is because I really just had to leverage a lot of resources in other people. And so that was just a function of, you know, asking every question that I could. And not just in, you know, in terms of finance, but pretty much for all of navigating college, and especially the PhD because it’s so you know, such an esoteric thing that is really kind of hard to teach unless you’re in it and you really just get that kind of ad hoc advice. And so yeah, with finance, I learned obviously like everyone, some things from my parents. I certainly learned to live more frugally from, you know, my dad for instance, who also didn’t grow up with a lot of things. And so really knows the value of, you know, having that safety net and feeling comfortable and those things.

11:09 Keiland: But other things, I really just had to learn on my own and from talking to friends and, you know, there’s a lot of research online and asking, you know, professionals questions sometimes when it comes to it. Just cold emails of like my parents didn’t know what a Roth IRA was, or they really didn’t invest in the stock market outside of their 401(k) and what the company had given. And so, those things, you know, you just pick up from all sorts of sources, whether it’s excerpts from books or websites or YouTube talks from professionals over time. There’s really not exactly one source. And I think what also makes it difficult that I found is there’s certainly, like with most things, not one strategy either to build wealth. There are a thousand different strategies, and everyone is going to think that they have their right way to do it, but that’s not necessarily the case, right?

12:04 Keiland: So, there’s a whole cohort of people who think you should have no debt ever. You should try and pay everything in cash than have debt, where on the flip side people are like, Well, no, no, no, debt can be really useful. Why would you buy something with, you know, debt that has a really low interest rate when you could get that more return if you invested that money in something else, Right? So, you know, different strategies to accomplish the same goal and not either of them is necessarily correct. It probably just depends on the individual person and their situation and how they want to navigate things.

Financial Strategies During Grad School

12:41 Emily: Yes. Let’s talk more about strategies now. And I want to kind of divide this into two categories. I want to divide it into what strategies are you using during graduate school that you found fruitful for your finances? And then what have you tried and then discarded along the way because it didn’t work out for you? Because you mentioned in our prep that you like to do experiments, which I love that idea as well. So, let’s start with what you have picked up in terms of strategies during graduate school or have continued from your earlier life.

13:11 Keiland: Yeah, I think the big one that has been probably most helpful for me, one is like I said, having that safety net I think is really important. Just because once you have it, you feel really comfortable and you can start doing other things or you can start working in other areas of finance that you might necessarily do. Another is, I like to focus on the big purchases, or at least put way more effort in the big purchases and big expenditures than the little ones. And so, the famous example is everyone yelling at millennials for buying Starbucks coffee. Too much Starbucks coffee each month. And I would much rather be able to not worry about whether or not I’m buying a Starbucks coffee each day than how much money am I paying for rent. Because in the long-term, that rent cost is going to far exceed, I would have to drink a lot of Starbucks coffee to exceed the amount that that rent will cost.

14:18 Emily: I totally agree with this, like getting those, I call them the big rocks. Getting the big rocks in your budget right. But you live in Orange County, California and it’s hugely expensive. So, I want to know specifically what have you done with your rent to try to minimize that cost to the degree that you are comfortable?

Minimizing Rent in California

14:36 Keiland: So, I’m lucky. Obviously, rent is awful in California. That’s just a blanket statement that’s going to be true pretty much wherever you are. But even within that, there’s certainly variability. I’m lucky in the sense that University of California Irvine subsidizes rent, and so you don’t have to live at the university. You could live outside and commute and some people do and it might be a little bit cheaper, but then you have to factor in commuting costs and so on and so forth. But even then, I knew I wanted to live, you know, near campus so I wouldn’t have to drive to campus every day. And even within the housing that UCI offers, there’s variability on the order of, I think on the low end it’s, you know, $500 a month and at the high end it’s like $1,300 a month.

15:28 Keiland: And I chose and requested housing that’s on that lower end. I didn’t get the lowest because, you know, they don’t have very many of those, but, you know, and certainly my apartment isn’t as nice as it could have been, but it’s not that important to me for those years. And so again, the $300 I would save just from that one decision each month adds up to, you know, a few thousand that cushions some of the other things. So, I don’t have to worry as much about, you know, I enjoy eating out. I don’t like to cook as much so I can eat out and not feel as bad about that decision. Or, I can intentionally say, you know, I’m going spend my money on something that I want to do or that actually makes me happy rather than something that, you know, I’m just spending money on kind of mindlessly and doesn’t really bring that big quality of life to me.

16:22 Emily: Yeah, I think, I mean this housing decision is just, it’s so important. You can change it if you’re a renter, you know, it’s difficult but not impossible to change where you live. So, it’s great to get it, you know, as best you can sorted out from the beginning. But it’s again, as you said, for each individual you have to evaluate how much joy am I going to get from living in this type of apartment versus this type of apartment. And to me as well, like I need to, you know, I want to have a place to live, but it doesn’t have to be the most hospitable or the most fancy or whatever, whatever. And so, I think that sometimes people can get tripped up, maybe setting other people’s expectations on themselves about, oh, I have to live in a nice place because that’s what my parents think or whatever. Whereas if they really evaluated it, maybe they could go a little lower on the cost spectrum and still be just as happy. And as you said, then the money is available to divert to something else that does bring them more value and does bring them more joy. Like you said, you don’t want to sweat the small stuff, so you’re going to focus on those big items. Are there any other big items that you want to mention? Aside from rent?

Another Big-Ticket Item: Car

17:26 Keiland: Car is certainly a big one. You know, buying a new car off the lot versus a used car. For some people, I’ve met a lot of people where both of those decisions is a no-brainer. It’s like, obviously I’m going to get a new car, why wouldn’t I? Or obviously I’m going to get a used car, why wouldn’t I? Right? So again, it really goes back to what’s your financial situation and really what’s important to you. Is it really that important to you to have that nice of a car? In some cases it might be, and that might be the thing that you really enjoy and really, you know, why you work and make money and what you live for is that thing. And so that’s fine as long as it’s, you know, in my view, intentional. But other things, like for me, I don’t really need that nice of a car and so I can, you know, cut back and use that money I save for other things that do mean more to me.

18:18 Keiland: And so, that’s kind of the intentional decision. And it doesn’t mean that even for the big purchases you can’t do them, or you have to live cheaply. But I, I think the amount of time you spend needs to be proportional. And there’s a famous law in psychology that kind of proves that, the prospect theory that we will fight tooth and nail to spend a coupon on like a $5 hamburger. But for a thousand-dollar car you won’t fight for that $5 savings, even though at the end of the day it’s still $5 in your pocket. So, to to kind of be mindful of these kind of like cognitive biases and really put the effort into the big things. Because you can still have probably the same car for a better price if you just put in a little bit more work to find it and look for it and save.

19:06 Emily: Absolutely. And sort of like what you were saying earlier, if you put in the time and you put in the work to finding that, you know, great housing situations, a great deal, or the car or whatever these other bigger items, as you said it should be proportional to the amount of money that you’re spending on those. Then, again, you don’t have to spend much time fretting about those smaller purchases. So you specifically, do you own a car?

19:27 Keiland: Yeah.

19:27 Emily: Is it paid off? Like what do you want to tell us about your car?

19:29 Keiland: Yeah, I’ve been driving the same car since high school <laugh>, so and I was actually thinking about saving it because it’s awful on gas and the environment, but then the economy and the used car market was terrible. And I honestly don’t drive, like I said, I live very close to campus, so I really don’t drive that much at all. So, you know, personally, I didn’t feel as bad of, you know, just keeping it for a few extra years and then after, you know, the PhD, maybe I’ll look for another one or if I see a really good deal then maybe I’ll consider.

20:03 Emily: Yeah, my family has one car for four of us but we really don’t drive very much, as you just said. Like, we work, my husband and I work from home. I walk my daughter to school, my other daughter we need to drive, but it’s like a two-mile distance. And so, yeah, I don’t know, it just doesn’t add up to much. And we’ve sort of, for the last couple of years since, you know, kind of before the pandemic been thinking, oh, I, you know, at some point we need to upgrade this car, like get more of a family one or whatever. But you know, just not driving that much, I don’t see the way to justify like the expense until it’s absolutely necessary. And that’s kind of our like, attitude about it. And again, if we were spending a ton of time in the car, then it would be a higher value, but it’s really just to get from here to my daughter’s preschool and back. That’s pretty much all it’s being used for.

20:49 Keiland: Yeah, that’s how I see it too. Like if I was commuting an hour a day and I just, every single day for an entire hour I was sitting in my car and I just said, I hate this car, I hate this car, I hate this car. Right? That would be worth it to me to spend a little bit extra money on, you know, something a little bit nicer. Just because I knew, you know, I would much rather have an hour a day where I just don’t hate myself in the car than, you know, this fine car or I’m thinking about something else other than, you know, is my check engine light going to combust at any moment? So yeah, I think it’s those kinds of decisions that are really helpful.

Commercial

21:30 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD Workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success! Now back to the interview.

Increasing Income by Applying for Funding

22:36 Emily: How about some other strategies you’ve used during graduate school? I understand you have increased your income.

22:42 Keiland: Yeah, yeah. In grad school, it’s kind of hard because as you all know well, you can have side hustles, but PhDs are huge time commitments and really demand a lot of your focus and there are also kind of sometimes regulations in your program that prohibit it and so on and so forth. But there are things unique to a PhD that I think have been really useful. So scholarships and grants and those types of ways to increase your income are pretty unique to a PhD and there’s a lot out there. And I know everyone says this and even I really wish I probably one of my biggest regrets in undergrad was not applying to more, because the more I learned it really is just free money. And especially seeing it from the other side, from like sitting on committees that give out grants, they really just want to give money to people.

23:35 Keiland: And so, really just applying to as many as you can and especially the big ones will probably be worth the time. And so for instance, I did the GRFP, which was a huge comfort. Not only just from a little bit of extra income each month, which really wasn’t much compared to my stipend. But also just minimizing risk of, you know, if for instance, my advisor doesn’t have money, I know that I’m funded. Which I think of as probably just as important as increasing your income is just knowing that your income is stable, right? Because that helps you plan, that helps you, you know, make other investment decisions, that makes you, you know, feel a little bit more comfortable when you do other things rather than needing to save. And also, you know, smaller ad hoc grants that you apply for, or travel awards, or these things. Even the small ones, you know, if it’s quick and doesn’t take too much time, if you go back and add them up, they really add up to quite a bit of money. So looking for all those kind of opportunities and not being afraid to like ask for them or ask for help or these things when you need it, I found really, really useful.

24:57 Emily: I like the way that you phrased that. Being able to apply for scholarships and grants and fellowships is a unique thing to the academic experience. Because at face value, if I said something like, how do you increase your income as a graduate student? A lot of people would just dismiss it out of hand. There’s no way. They tell me what my stipend is, that’s it. But they’re just automatically discounting this whole category of an academia-approved way to increase your income, which is just to apply for awards of various types. And you’ll be lauded for doing so if you actually, you know, end up winning them. And so it’s like, yeah, even for people who are prevented by their visa or by policy from working outside of, you know, the PhD program, this is a completely straightforward and great way to at least attempt to increase your income.

25:42 Keiland: You asked earlier about things I’ve tried that work and don’t work. For me personally, I don’t really budget each month. Mostly because I’ve tried things that, you know, I tried to sit down and budget. But I think once you, or at least for me, once I got to the point where I kind of had a feeling of what the things were that I was buying and what the big purchases were, like I said, I didn’t really feel like I needed to budget as much each month. And so usually I’ll sit down maybe once a quarter or even once a year and really kind of get a handle on, you know, like I said, what are the big things I’m buying? What are the little things that are adding up? What are the like subscriptions that I don’t need? And those things to try and like reset myself for the next quarter or next year. But I really don’t sit down month to month anymore and really kind of get on myself.

Experimental Expenditure “Fasting”

26:40 Emily: I think there’s a lot of value in the exercise of budgeting and tracking and so forth, but only to the extent that it helps you actually make decisions or change your behavior. Because if all you’re doing is kind of a, okay, I’m doing a budget exercise, but it makes absolutely no difference to my behavior or how I feel or anything, then it’s pointless. But I like what you’re saying is okay, yeah, you’re not budgeting on like a weekly, monthly basis, but you are using the data that you’ve collected to make decisions going forward. And so, that’s really what you need to get out of budgeting anyway, is the ability to make those decisions. So that sounds perfect. Yeah, any other strategies that you’ve like tried out and decided that they weren’t the best for you?

27:23 Keiland: Yeah, there’s one thing I kind of did in undergrad just as a proof of, so like for instance, I would, you know, live without AC for a few months just to, you know, see what it was like or not AC, heat. I would turn the heat off in the winter for a few nights just to prove to myself that like, you know, before then I was like, I must have heat. I can’t live in a cold environment. And then you see all these things where like, you know, what if I couldn’t afford it? What if I couldn’t use it? What if I couldn’t do it? For no other reason just to one, to prove to myself that if I didn’t have it, I would probably be okay. To a certain extent. It’s nothing extreme or crazy. Or if I, so for instance, I felt like I was buying a bit too much like tea or coffee at the store and just be like, you know what, for this month I’m not going to drink it, and how badly will it really affect my life?

28:24 Keiland: Will I really be that upset if I don’t? That was kind of like the earlier advice that you had heard and it’s like, oh yeah, you need to cut back on everything. And I think it’s useful as an exercise just to get that point too just so you feel comfortable as like, you know what, it’s nice to have and I would love to have it, but it’s not a necessity, to really kind of understand what the necessities are. Because I think, at least for me, there were a lot of things that at one point that I thought were necessities and I thought that I had to have them and I had to spend money on them and I had to do them. And it wasn’t until I forced myself to kind of cut them out for a short period of time and kind of reflect back and see, was it really that bad? And then you realize, no, it really wasn’t that bad. It’s really not as important to me as I thought it was going to be.

29:13 Emily: I really like this point about these experiments to really determine for yourself like what is the line between a necessity and a discretionary expense? Not that it’s bad to spend on discretionary expenses, but just as you said, like, what can I survive without? What can I live without? And what is it really adding to my life to have that expense in my life? So then you can more accurately judge like how much you should be spending on it. I call these little experiments, the way that you’re describing them, fasts.

29:42 Keiland: Yeah.

Quiz Yourself on How Much You Think You’re Spending

29:42 Emily: So like, I know I’m going to go without this thing that I’m accustomed to for this defined period of time and we’re just going to see how it goes. And I fully expect to return to, you know, having it in my life after that point, but we’re just going to see, you know, how I feel about it, and maybe I’ll end up making a different decision later on with that new information. So, it’s not something to be doing all the time on everything, but from time to time yeah, to conduct those kinds of experiments, I think that’s valuable. Anything else you’d like to add about like, tactics that you’ve used during grad school?

30:12 Keiland: Yeah, one thing when I first learned about prospect theory, and that we focus more on the little things than the big things, even though they’re not proportional. I kind of got a little deep into it, and one thing I thought actually ended up being kind of useful was when I was sitting down and trying to budget my finances and what I was spending money on, to kind of take a minute before then and kind of ask myself how much I thought I was spending on these things beforehand. Almost like a quiz or a game, and then you’ll have your answer in black and white once you actually sit down and calculate it.

30:49 Keiland: But for me, I think it was really useful to try and begin to gauge how well do I know my own habits? And how much, you know, if you just like, it’s really hard. I think if you sit down and ask yourself, how much do I spend a year on x? How much do I spend a year on groceries? How much do I spend a year on blank? Even if you budget once a month, it still might not be that automatic before you budget to try and have that kind of handle on it. So really quizzing yourself before, so you know what you need to learn rather than just waiting for that aha moment of, oh wow, I’m spending too much on this. But to really kind of handle that psychology that’s underlying those decisions.

Money Mindset Shifts During Grad School

31:39 Emily: Let’s go a little bit further in this vein and talk about mindset shifts you’ve had. Now, the mindset that you described coming into graduate school, you were very inquisitive, including about finances, learning a lot from a lot of different sources, that’s super valuable. But have you seen any shifts in your mindset during grad school with respect to your finances?

32:00 Keiland: Yeah, I think the big one for me was not being as risk-adverse. So like I said, there are kind of two camps of you should have zero debt at all times, pay everything in cash, have little to no credit, et cetera. And the other camp is, you know, debt can be useful, just be careful or be very strategic about how you use it and you can actually earn more over the long-term. The thing is being like, if you do a big purchase of say like land or a house, it’s probably better to get a mortgage than pay straight up in cash because if you put that cash in, say like stocks for the same amount of time, you’ll make more money over the long-term. Pretty basic, but still there are kind of those two divides. And I really found myself on the other end of that spectrum for a long time of like, I’m going to pay everything in cash.

32:51 Keiland: I really didn’t want a credit card for a long time until I realized very soon that you have to build credit in today’s world. So, in undergrad I ended up finally getting a credit card and using, you know, 10% of the limit per month and so on. But that was, I think a shift is, you know, debt and credit and risk can be useful. You just have to be careful and you really have to, you know, plan and learn and know how you’re using it when you do use it. And if you do then, you know, in the long-term you can probably come out ahead of the super risk-adverse camp. So, that was one and that also helped with like other investments with like Roth RA and stocks and so on. To know that like, you know, like I said, I have a safety net.

33:41 Keiland: I’ve worked hard for this, I lived very below my means for this, but now that I have it, now I can try and, you know, learn what the stock market is, learn, you know, what it feels like to lose money for an extended period of time and have, you know, to discipline not to sell and so on. And to see and just kind of handle that volatility for me was a good exercise one, because I knew at some point most of my assets are gonna be in a 401(k) or retirement account at some point. And so, when I inevitably talk to an advisor, I would love to at least know a little bit about what I’m talking about so I can have those conversations with them. I thought was a tremendously useful exercise and then I like it, so, you know, invest some extra money that way.

34:28 Keiland: But yeah, that was a big shift I think. And also like I said, in undergrad, I was very, very frugal. I’m a lot less frugal. And that was actually hard for me. I know, like it was hard to kind of like let myself spend money. And it wasn’t until I really sat down and said, you know, these are my twenties, despite the fact that, you know, two of them are in COVID. Like, yeah, you have to live below your means and you have to live frugally and you have to save, but at the same time, you don’t want to save a bunch of money when you’re 60 and then look back and be like, what did I spend it on? So like I said, really kind of giving myself the permission to spend on the things that I really think make me happy or really increase my quality of life and those sorts of things. I at least found really useful to kind of justify like, yeah, I can go on vacation or I can spend for this because it’ll be really worth it and it’s not a mindless decision. I’m not just giving money because I want it in that moment. I really, you know, think this thing will be good and it’s worth the amount of money I’ll spend now on it.

Act Your Wage

35:42 Emily: I’m giving a webinar later this afternoon on the day that we’re recording, and one of the slides that I’m going to present exhorts the listener to act your wage. And that partially means being frugal in graduate school. You know, you’re not going to be living on a lot of money, but for you, because you had lived on even less as an undergraduate and you know, you had these really highly ingrained, frugal tendencies, for you and for other people like you, acting your wage also means doing things that you’ve never done before with your finances, like starting to invest, like acquiring credit. And it’s appropriate, right? As long as it’s all in balance with where your salary is at that time and the cost of living and everything. Like, so act your wage can mean a lot of different things to different people depending on where you’re coming from and where you are now.

36:31 Emily: And so, I like that you’ve grown, right? Over these last few years in that sense and your finances because your salary allows you to do those things to spend on vacations from time to time. To start to invest as long as you are careful about your rent and all the other things that we’ve talked about, it’s all in balance for you. And that’s a great place to be during graduate school. A lot of people don’t get there, but I’m really pleased that that you are yeah. Is there anything else that you wanna add like maybe mindset shifts that you would recommend to other graduate students?

37:01 Keiland: Yeah, I think the most important thing is just to think about your money, which, you know, a lot of people might not necessarily do, but you know, if you don’t do it at all, it’s worth, like you said, budgeting and going through and seeing where you spend your money and kind of getting a sense for yourself and learning about yourself. And I know we’re all PhD students, think of it as like a research project, right? There have been times where I’ve sat down and like analyzed my financial data in Python, right? It’s, you know, it’s kind of fun to, to sit down and play with the spreadsheets and add things up. Most of us are nerds here and finance can be a very nerdy topic. So it doesn’t all have to be scary and certainly, all of us are getting PhDs, so we all have the aptitude in one way or another to learn about these topics.

37:47 Keiland: Even though some of them might seem really complex at first, certainly don’t have to be, especially when there are experts like you sitting really close to us that, you know, are an email away or workshop away. So yeah, really, really know yourself, and learn how you spend your money and get a really a good sense for yourself and then ask yourself what your goals are and then if they don’t align, readjust, and if they do align, then don’t adjust. But I think having the comfort and knowledge of knowing your own behavior is probably the most important thing to just know how you spend money and whether or not it will get you where you want to be in the long-term or not.

38:31 Emily: I can definitely understand if some people do not want to go through that exercise, like they expect it to be like unpleasant or something. Like, yeah, it’s not the greatest thing to look at like a small salary as a PhD student and figure out, you know, how you’re managing it and everything, but it, it’s not gonna get better by ignoring it, right? So, really the only way out is like, is through <laugh> through the process of the introspection that you were just talking about so that you can make some better decisions on the other side that’ll help you feel better about your whole life and about your finances too. So, thank you so much for that.

Effective Altruism

39:04 Emily: Is there anything that you want to tell us about your finances now? I mean, I think we’ve gotten, you know, some pieces of the picture. You have some savings in place, you’ve started investing in a Roth IRA. Yeah, would you like to say anything more about sort of where these mindsets and strategies have taken you over the last three years?

39:18 Keiland: I’m lucky to have saved enough for six to 12 months of a safety net, which to me, I kind of think is my foundation. And then another, I try and max out my Roth IRA as much as I can each year. And once I’ve done that, I try and donate some percentage and I also try and invest so hopefully I can hopefully donate more. I’m really interested in kind of this mindset called effective altruism, which a lot of people have talked about. And it’s in a great community and so it’s just, you know, investing in spending your money in such a way that you can quantitatively maximize the impact. And so I do, philosophically, I really like those ideas and the discussions there.

40:04 Emily: There was actually a Stuff You Should Know Episode on Effective Altruism. Just we’re recording this in June, 2022, so it was a few weeks or a couple of months ago. But anyway, I hadn’t heard of the concept before that, but following that episode I ordered a book from some effective altruism organization that sends out free books about it, <laugh>. So, it’s on my reading list, although I haven’t gotten to it yet. So, thanks so much for bringing up that concept. Is there anything else that you want to add?

40:30 Keiland: Yeah, no, yeah, I really like those topics. Particularly because I think, in a lot of ways, that scientists really just want to do the amount of good and don’t really think about money as much. But effective altruism, at least for me, made me think of money in such a way that, you know, it’s the energy to do good. Money doesn’t necessarily have to be evil, right? It’s like how much money is being spent in the NSF or NIH budgets each year. It’s like millions and millions and millions of dollars. So, to think of money as, you know, earning money need not be kind of like a greedy evil thing, as long as you are ethical about it and you’re conscious about it. Because ultimately you can use it to do other good things. So, that was a good way to kind of changed my mindset of how I was thinking about, you know, earning wealth, and so on.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

41:23 Emily: I love that we got there. I love that we got to that motivation by the end of this interview. Let’s conclude with the question that I ask all my interviewees, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we touched on during the episode or it could be something completely new.

41:40 Keiland: I think we tend to to be stuck in our fields and think like, Oh, I’m really good at this, but not this. But the PhD is really just a signature of you’re a really smart person and probably any problem that you’re handed, given enough time, you’ll figure it out. And your finances could just be another problem that’s on your PhD. And no matter how daunting it might seem, I’m sure the beginning of your PhD probably seemed more daunting than that. So, finances need not to be that thing. No matter how weird our taxes are in quarterly payments and you know, do we pay on stipends or not and have to get like a mini degree in accounting to do a, you know, 20-something-year-old’s taxes, it’s fine. At the end of the day, you’ll learn about it and that’ll be useful in the long-term and could even be interesting depending on who you are. So, don’t let it be daunting, and don’t be afraid to ask for help along the way to answer those questions.

42:41 Emily: I don’t think I’ve thought about it or heard it phrased that way before, but I really like your articulation there of like think of your finances as another thing that you can be a student of, and another thing you can learn about during this period of time. And you don’t have to have it right from the beginning. You don’t have to master it from the beginning. It’s a process. And I also like that there’s relatively lower stakes with your finances when you’re earning that lower salary. And that can be kind of the training ground and the proving ground so that when you get to that higher post-PhD salary, then you know the things about, well, does budgeting work for you or not? Maybe you have a different system that’s better for you. And like, yeah, I’m now versed in how to invest in a Roth IRA, so it’s really not going to be too challenging to select the investments inside my 401(k), et cetera, et cetera. So, I love that framing of it. Well, Keiland, this was such a pleasure to talk with you and thank you so much for volunteering to be on the podcast!

43:30 Keiland: Yeah, yeah, thank you. And thanks for all the work you’re doing for PhD students like us trying to navigate it all.

43:36 Emily: You are very welcome. It’s my pleasure.

Outtro

43:43 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD Student-Nurse Is Confident in Her Self-Worth

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In this episode, Emily interviews Brenda Olmos, a nurse practitioner and rising third-year PhD student in nursing. A first-generation college student who grew up without financial stability, Brenda was debt-averse throughout college and her master’s degree and started building wealth in her 20s through investing and real estate, eventually aligning with the FIRE movement. When she decided to pursue a PhD in her late 20s, she held out for an online program with an excellent culture and funding package. Thanks to her lucrative outside work, Brenda has continued to invest consistently during her PhD, although more slowly than she did pre-PhD. Brenda’s strong financial position and career optionality have set her up well for a fulfilling post-PhD career.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

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Teaser

00:00 Brenda: It’s so cool to like see yourself grow in ways that you never thought you could. And financially like, okay, maybe I’m taking like a 50 or $60,000 per year cut. But in the course of my life, like is three years really going to matter that much, you know? And how much more will my life be enriched by having this degree? Like what doors will it open for me? Whether they’re monetary or not is not really the point for me anymore. And that’s something that I was able to achieve in my twenties.

Introduction

00:37 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 2, and today my guest is Brenda Olmos, a nurse practitioner and rising third-year PhD student in nursing. A first-generation college student who grew up without financial stability, Brenda was debt-averse throughout college and her master’s degree and started building wealth in her 20s through investing and real estate, eventually aligning with the FIRE movement. When she decided to pursue a PhD in her late 20s, she held out for an online program with an excellent culture and funding package. Thanks to her lucrative outside work, Brenda has continued to invest consistently during her PhD, although more slowly than she did pre-PhD. Brenda’s strong financial position and career optionality have set her up well for a fulfilling post-PhD career.

01:56 Emily: Would you please help me out with something? I want to record six podcast interviews this fall to be published over approximately the next six months. Will you consider being a guest? As a listener, I’m sure you have something to say about money as a PhD or PhD-to-be! Simply fill out the Google Form at PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ to get the ball rolling. Alternatively, if you have someone in mind who you’d like to hear me interview, please connect me with that person over email or Twitter! I really appreciate it! Let’s keep the podcast going strong! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Brenda Olmos.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:52 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today someone I know from Fintwit, Brenda Olmos. She is a rising third-year PhD student at the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center. She’s actually doing a PhD in nursing, so a very different kind of PhD student than we’ve had on here before. Not only that, her program is online, so she lives in Austin, Texas. So, Brenda, I’m so happy to have you on the podcast and get to have a deep-dive conversation with you. Will you please tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself?

03:20 Brenda: Sure! Hello everyone. My name’s Brenda Olmos. And, like Emily said, I live in Austin, Texas, and I’ve grown up in this area of central Texas and really enjoy living here. So, when I was searching for PhD programs, I was definitely searching for distance programs. And that’s the case about me being in an online PhD program. I grew up, like I said, here in central Texas, and I went to UT Austin for my undergraduate in nursing degree. Six years later, I graduated with my Master’s in Nursing as a family nurse practitioner. So, I had about six years of experience as a registered nurse at the bedside, which means I basically worked in inpatient hospital settings, taking care of people who were acutely ill. And then I chose to leave that setting when I became a nurse practitioner and I worked in an outpatient primary care setting for older people.

04:11 Brenda: So, I’m a geriatric nurse. And I found a scholarship in 2019 for geriatric nursing research. And I was kind of at a point in my life where I was satisfied with my career, and I found it rewarding. I found my work very gratifying, but I felt that my potential wasn’t really maximized in that role, that I made a difference one-on-one with patients, but that I wanted to make a difference at a larger scale. And in nursing, there are two paths for a doctorate degree. There’s a Doctorate in Nursing Practice, which is a DNP, and a lot of nurses do that because they want to make immediate change, like in administration or policy. And then there’s the PhD, which is the Doctor of Philosophy. And that’s more of a research-based doctorate, like most other PhDs in which you focus on generating new knowledge and you learn the research process.

05:07 Brenda: And I actually had really great mentors, which caused me to lean towards the PhD. And I chose the PhD in nursing because I felt that I wanted to have the doctorate that was universally recognized as a terminal degree and as a doctorate, whereas a DNP is very specific to nursing. I wanted to have something that, you know, the three letters that mean something to everybody <laugh> in the world, right? So, that’s kind of been my trajectory. I worked as a nurse practitioner for three years, full-time from 2017 to 2020. And then in 2020, I had been accepted to the PhD program. I was still kind of on the fence about it because I was making six figures as a nurse practitioner. And even though I didn’t know at the time that I had won this scholarship, I was like, I don’t know, this is a big leap to take. And then the pandemic hit and that took away so much of the joy of my work. And so much of the compensation that I realized I’m ready to go do something different. So, I’ve been in my PhD program since August of 2020. And like you said, I’m going into my third year now.

06:13 Emily: Wow. I love when I get someone on the podcast who has really, really thought deeply about their career and the trajectory of it and chosen, after all of that, to go into a PhD program. I don’t want be, you know, too critical of people who went like directly from undergrad down that path. I went almost directly from undergrad, but I just think it takes on a different tone. You have more focus in your research usually with all that like background work experience, and especially for you having a very, you know, very solid, super lucrative like career leading into that and you just really thought about, well, what do I want in my life? How do I want to be spending my time? That’s actually a lot of what we’ll be talking about today.

06:51 Emily: And I just want to kind of frame this for the listener a little bit that you know, Brenda’s had, as we just said of really different career trajectory than probably most people who are listening, probably the vast majority of people who are listening. And so once we get to start, you know, talking about Brenda’s finances, you’re going to see a pretty rosy picture. And it is of course, largely due to having that career in her twenties. But I don’t want you to like dismiss this episode as like, you’re never going to learn anything from it because you’re not in the same kind of position that Brenda was, because I still think there’s going to be something here, some strategy, some mindset, especially, that you can learn from. So, keep with us even though it may be a little bit of a different kind of story.

07:29 Brenda: And I do want to add to that that not every nurse is in my position, right? Like I had a really great scholarship for undergrad. Probably about 75% of my undergrad degree was paid for through scholarships and grants. I paid for my master’s degree, partially through hospital tuition reimbursement, and partially by working full-time. But I had classmates who took out a hundred thousand dollars for two years of their master’s program, and they’re paying that off now, right? So, I just want to be transparent about the fact that like, don’t go up to every nurse and be like, oh my God, you have no debt and you make a ton of money. Like, no, I was very strategic about the way that I got my education and I was always debt-averse. And so, I think that’s also important to point out.

Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE)

08:14 Emily: Yeah. Because I next want to kind of talk about you discovering the FIRE movement, which you did prior to starting the PhD program, but you had already, as you just said, taken some, you know, FIRE-like steps leading up to that, by being debt-averse, by working a lot while you’re in school, by choosing an employer who’s going to give you tuition reimbursement and so forth. So like, you were already setting yourself up well financially, even if you hadn’t, you know, discovered that particular movement. But let’s go to that like moment when you discovered the FIRE movement and what appealed to you about it? Like, why did you decide to start going that route?

08:45 Brenda: Yeah, I think a lot of it was rooted in, like for many of us, the way that we grew up around money, right? Like the beliefs that were planted in our minds as young kids. And for me, and I’ve talked about this in BiggerPockets and in some other podcasts, is that I had so much financial instability growing up and I knew so much about my parents’ finances and I knew the lows and I knew the highs. And I had kind of, maybe not consciously, but unconsciously decided that I was going to be stable, that my adult life was not going to be a roller coaster of emotions, secondary to my financial situation. And so, I think that’s why FIRE appealed to me because it was like, oh, I don’t just have to be stable. Like, I can be free. <Laugh>, you know, it’s like, there’s one extreme where you’re tied to the ball and chain, there’s the middle ground where you’re stable and you’re working, you’re saving, maybe you’re investing. And then there’s financially independent where no matter what you do, whether you work or you don’t work, you’re okay, right? So, I found out about it through some podcasts, StackingBenjamins, Afford Anything, Earn and Invest. And I just started listening and I was like, wow, there’s a lot I can do with some money I have saved up. Or like, maybe I should buy a property, you know? And that’s kind of how it all took off.

10:13 Emily: I think we’re going to get here, like later in the interview, but this like really interesting overlap in your story between pursuing FIRE and pursuing the PhD, and like the time freedom that FIRE can give you to then apply it to your academic interest. Even if those interests don’t pay as well as other career paths, perhaps, that were available to you. So, I really hope, yeah, we pull that out later in the interview. So, give me a couple, like, you know, mechanical things that you did in those early years of FIRE. You mentioned, oh, maybe I should consider buying a property. Like, what were some things that you did that were deviations from the path that you were on before, once you learned about FIRE?

10:49 Brenda: Right. So, I started investing in a brokerage account, which I had never done before. Like the thought of investing in the stock market was really foreign to me. I knew that my parents had 401(k)s, but I didn’t know that that was investing in the stock market. And so, I started doing research on that. And I talk about this on the podcast I have with my friend, Minority Millennial Money, about how my first experience into investing was like going to Wells Fargo and having an advisor there telling me that I needed at least $25,000 to like open a portfolio <laugh> and, you know, I look back on that and I did it. But I look back on that and I’m like, oh, I was so naive, you know? And now I know so much more and eventually, I transferred it out of Wells Fargo, but so the first thing was investing, and the second thing was buying a home.

House Hacking

11:40 Brenda: First, it was a small condo in 2017. Prior to that, I had kept my living expenses low because I just lived with a friend who owned a home and I rented a room from her for $600 a month, right? So, for Austin, even seven years ago, that was really cheap. So, and I didn’t, I don’t mind living with people, but it was nice to have my own place when I bought a condo in 2017. And then in 2019, I bought a single-family home and I rented out the condo. And so, now I have both.

12:11 Emily: So, let’s see, in 2019 you bought the single-family home, in 2020, you started the PhD program. So, are you still living in that single-family home? Or did you move again?

12:19 Brenda: Yeah, and I house hack it. So, I mean, house hacking is really just having roommates, right? So, basically, I started having travel nurses stay with me so that I didn’t have a permanent person. I just kind of had a nurse house. And so, I really enjoyed that. And there was a little bit of a lull there when COVID hit because many of their contracts got canceled. And so, I was at a critical point where I was like, I’m quitting my job. I have this house to take care of and the income may not be there, but it ended up working out. And hosting travel nurses is really awesome.

12:59 Emily: Yeah. This strategy of house hacking is one that I have given some air time to in the past and I’m really excited about for PhD students, because for that stage of life, it’s already really normalized to live with roommates. And so, if you have the financial wherewithal to be able to purchase, be the owner and be the landlord, it can like really radically transform your finances. So, so glad to hear that you were taking advantage of that strategy even before starting the PhD.

Choosing a Supportive PhD Program

13:22 Emily: So, we kind of already talked about like, why you wanted to start the PhD, you know, why you thought it was the best move for your career. Did you want to add any more details about, I don’t know, that particular program or anything else about your, you know, deciding to go down that career?

13:35 Brenda: Yeah. And, you know, we have met over Financial Twitter and there’s also Academic Twitter. And on Academic Twitter, I see so many horror stories of like really difficult programs, really toxic environments. And I was like, A) I don’t have to do this. So, I am not going to go to a program like that. And B) What if I found a really great program, you know? And so, I just created a spreadsheet with all the schools I was looking at. And this particular program, the director called me, she wanted to talk, she was warm, she was encouraging. And she was genuinely interested in me, you know? And I was like, wow, that’s really special. Whereas other schools like just sent me computer-generated emails, you know? And I was like, okay. So, like my email just went into like a black hole. So, that was important to me, especially because I know that people don’t know this, you know, people outside of nursing don’t know this, but nursing academia has a really negative reputation for being very toxic, very discouraging, not supportive, hazing, in a sense.

14:44 Brenda: And it’s especially prominent at the graduate, you know, and doctoral level. So, I was like, I don’t need that in my life. So, I’m going to look for a program where I feel like it would be a good experience. And I found that, and I was like, okay, I could do this here. So, that was important to me. And also, it was important to me that, if I was going to take this big financial hit, that it was going to be for something worth it. And like you said, for me, the PhD is really something I’m doing for personal enrichment, right? There’s no guarantee that I’m going to make more money when I’m done. You know, I made almost $200,000 in 2019 just working a little bit extra. If I get a job that makes me that much post-PhD, I’ll be really excited. But for me, it was also really important to see people that look like me because I’m a Latina nurse practitioner. And I just could count on one hand how many people who were nurses who had PhDs, who were Hispanic, that I knew, you know? And so, in a field that’s predominantly or 95% white women, I thought it was important to increase the representation.

16:00 Emily: Yeah. I love all those overlapping motivations. And I love, it sounds like you were patient, right? Like you were willing to be really selective about the program that you went to. And I love that little note about like, oh, this person actually called me, like, I talked to this person over the phone instead of just email correspondence and just form letter stuff. And I love that like, you looked at this field, like you said, it has this bad reputation, and you said to yourself, I don’t need to do this. And I’m only going to do it if I can find the program that is going to be really supportive of me. It’s the right fit for me. And even if you know, Academic Twitter and everything else is telling you, no, no, everything’s terrible. It never, it doesn’t exist anywhere. You were like, no, I’m going to hold out and find that perfect program for me. And you did. So like, I just say that to point out that, like, that’s a limiting belief that you could have had. Like, you could have told yourself, oh, I’m never going to find a home. It doesn’t matter. People like me never, you know, get into this level of nursing or succeed or whatever, whatever. And you chose to not have that limiting belief, right? So, I want other people to hear that message as well.

17:02 Brenda: Yeah. And I’ve spoken with my classmates about this, and I think I’m just fortunate in the sense that I have a very positive disposition <laugh> and so I didn’t, it never occurred to me that I wouldn’t find one. I just thought, I just need to find one <laugh>.

Net Worth in Grad School

17:17 Emily: Okay. So, let’s hear more details about your life, like coming into the program. We’ve heard a couple of things. You already owned two properties. You had been making like over six figures. In fact, your income was nearly $200K in that year immediately prior to starting graduate school. Would you like to share anything about like your net worth or just any other aspects of your financial picture at the time that you started graduate school?

17:38 Brenda: Yeah. So, at the time I started graduate school, that was 2020. So, my net worth now is about $550,000. And at that time it was probably, I think I remember tweeting about it and I think it was like $330K at that time. And that big leap has really just been real estate prices just skyrocketing. And so, I do count like potential, you know, appreciation in my net worth. And then I probably have, right now, I have about $160K or $170K invested. And at that time I probably had like $120K. And so, I’ve been contributing, let’s see, with Roth contribution maximum, which is 6,000, plus about a thousand dollars a month. So, that’s like $18,000 a year in the last two years. So yeah, that makes sense. $120K plus another $35K to $40K. So, I’m at $160K. And I anticipate, you know, this is just kind of a lull in my investing trajectory. And once I go back to full-time work and I’m earning a full-time income again of hopefully at least a hundred thousand, if not more, because I’ll be able to add my clinical practice contract work to it, then I’ll be able to go back to investing closer to $25,000 a year.

19:00 Emily: I mean, investing $18,000 a year while you’re in a PhD program is well, definitely the highest number that I’ve heard <laugh> of anybody on the podcast. So, you’re not exactly a slouch in this area. But so, prior to the PhD, though, it sounds like you were using a taxable brokerage account and maybe some employer-provided stuff 401(k) or 403(b).

19:18 Brenda: Yes, a 401(k).

19:18 Emily: Yeah. Okay. And so, that benefit went away, I assume. Like at the moment you’re only doing your Roth IRA and then the taxable brokerage account.

19:27 Brenda: Yeah. And actually, so before the episode, we talked about my stipend. So, my stipend is, just to protect my time, I don’t owe any kind of labor for that stipend, but I am limited to working 20 hours per week. The great thing about that stipulation is that I’m not limited to how much money I can make. I’m just limited to hours I can work. So, I have been a graduate research assistant at the university since spring of 2021 with one of my professors. And we’ve actually published two papers together, which is awesome. But one of the benefits of that is that as a GRA, you become staff of the university and you get access to their 403(b) and 457. So, I have been contributing at least half of my GRA income, which pays $25 an hour. And what’s funny about this is that the original pay for that position was $15 an hour at the university.

GRA Salary Negotiation

20:27 Brenda: And I told my professor, I was like, I’m sorry, like, I am passionate about your work, but like, I just cannot do it for $15 an hour. Like I have too many things going on and I have too many other much more lucrative offers. And so she went to financial, I don’t know, the financial services building and they agreed to bump it up to $25 for everyone in the nursing program, because we’re all registered nurses, at least, you know, some of us are nurse practitioners. So, it was like almost insulting <laugh>, you know? I mean, I don’t want to be a snob about it, but it’s like, who would take $15 when I can go work the same hour for $65 or $75? So anyway, so yeah, I’ve been doing the Roth, the taxable brokerage, which really comes third on my list. Like if I’m short on money one month, that’s the last one I fund. And then I contribute 50% of that $25 per hour income, which is 10 hours a week, a thousand dollars a month. So, half of that goes to the 457. And I chose the 457 on purpose because you can access it anytime without penalty.

21:38 Emily: Love all those details. Actually, it’s interesting because most people who I speak with who are like on the level of 10-hour per week employees are not offered those benefits. So like, I would say that’s a great, like, exception that your university or health sciences center offers that. So, that’s awesome that you’re doing that. And I love that you, you know, shared that negotiation story and that it not only benefited you, but benefited everybody. Like this is a message I’m trying to get across with like, you can negotiate for yourself as an individual. Yes. But it can also help other people when you do that, because it sends a message.

22:12 Brenda: I wouldn’t have expected them to just give it to me. I mean, it would’ve been fine, but then it’s like, I think it was a fairness issue, right? Because they were like, oh, well, all these other students are also doing it. No, it was great. And I think it was definitely something that the graduate college had to take into consideration because you’re looking at, you know, graduate students, but we’re also working professionals, right? So, that is kind of a unique situation that nurses in graduate school are in.

22:43 Emily: Absolutely.

Commercial

22:47 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2022 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15, 2022. Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax, and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives.

24:06 Emily: If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. Now back to our interview.

Sources of Income in Grad School

24:50 Emily: So, let’s like back up a tiny bit and talk about sort of all of your income sources during graduate school. Because you know, you’ve mentioned a couple times you have this really fantastic scholarship, so let’s start there. Like, what does the scholarship give you?

25:02 Brenda: Right. So, the scholarship is specific to my university, and it’s a special foundation that was money given through a philanthropic organization. And they basically allotted $150,000 scholarships separated into three years, $50,000 per year. That comes out to $30,000 per year or $2,500 per month as a stipend, and $3,000 for summer tuition, $6,000 for spring and fall tuition, and $4,000 leftover are for travel to conferences and that kind of thing. And I will say that I have used some of your courses and the taxes because that $2,500 counts as 1099 income for me. So, I do have to pay taxes on that. And most of my contract work is not on a W-2. So, I do have to pay taxes on that as well.

26:01 Emily: Okay. So, it sounds like the scholarship is fully paying your tuition and fees, giving you a stipend of $2,500 a month, and you have this additional professional development fund per year. Wow. Okay. That sounds great, but we’re not done yet. The way that we talked about this earlier, and I think the best way to phrase it for the listener is that that stipend of $2,500 per month essentially protects 20 hours per week of your time for you to devote to your dissertation research, or your classes, whatever it is you have to be doing for your PhD. And so, with the next 20 hours of your work week, you can be doing other paid work in that time. So, you can earn above your stipend. It’s just, you’re limited in the number of hours you can spend working. And so for you, you’ve already mentioned like the assistantship that you have at 10 hours per week. Do you have any other work that you do in the other remaining 10 hours per week?

Clinic Contract Work

26:52 Brenda: Yeah, so my former employer kept me on as a contractor. So now, I technically work for the agency that staffs their clinics, but they have urgent care clinics every weekend from nine to four. So, I’ll pick up weekend shifts. And occasionally, because my former boss knows me and knows that I know like the day-to-day clinic work, then he’ll ask me if I can work some days during the week. And so, I’ll do that. And that’s at $75 an hour. And then I have a couple of other jobs where I fill in for other nurse practitioners, like when they’re on vacation or they’re out sick or something. And the great thing about some of those is that they’re kind of slow clinics. And so, I can just take my schoolwork and do it there <laugh>.

27:43 Emily: Yeah. Sounds like a sweet deal. So, with all these active income sources together, the stipend plus the other work that you’re permitted to do, what does that add up to in terms of like your yearly income on average?

27:56 Brenda: So, last year my taxes were a little bit complicated, so I have the 1099 income, and then I have the real estate income. And I don’t take any of that as income from the real estate. So, the condo has its own account, and it has a little emergency fund for itself. And anything that it makes, it stays in there for emergencies, and same with the house. It has its own account. I pay rent into the homes account for myself, and then my tenants pay for pay into that account as well. But I rarely take any money from those accounts. So, I don’t count that. So, out of $112,000 last year, about $30K of that was from the rentals. And so, I really made about $70K, probably. So, $30K of that was from the stipend and then I made another $40K in part-time work.

28:53 Emily: Okay. So interesting. So, you have income sort of on your tax return, you have income that you don’t actually consider, like you’re not actually taking it into your personal accounts. You’re just leaving that as emergency funds and so forth for the real estate stuff. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, earning $40K on top of the $30K, again, really great for a PhD student. So good for you. The message that I want the listener to be hearing from this part of the interview is Brenda’s time is valued in a certain way because of her existing credentials and work experience and so forth. But earning something like $75 an hour is not out of the question for a PhD student in other disciplines. Depending, of course, on your work experience and what your field is and how, you know, in-demand it is, et cetera.

Valuing and Monetizing Your Skills

29:38 Emily: So, like you made the comment earlier. It’s a good thing they’re only limiting me on time and not the amount of money that I can make, because, you know, in some of your income sources, you can command quite a high hourly rate. I would love for other graduate students and postdocs to hear that message and think about, wow, if I’m making $75 an hour, a hundred dollars an hour, I only need to work two hours a week to make a really huge difference in my budget. You know, like when you can get to those high hourly rates, you don’t have to spend a ton of your time, you know, to get your finances in the shape that you want them to be in.

30:10 Brenda: For sure. And I think that, you know, like you said, I have a very particular skill, but there are skills that I don’t have that I would gladly pay someone $65 an hour to do. Like currently I’m dealing with some big data and I’m like, oh my gosh, I’m like going on websites of like, you know, people you can pay on an hourly basis to like walk you through something. And I’m sure that there are people in PhD programs who know this like the back of their hand, and they’re just not making themselves available for someone like me. Because I can earn that money, you know, relatively easily, and I’m happy to pay someone for their expertise as well. So, that’s very true. And I think that maybe sometimes, you know, I am very aware of my skill because I have a license and a certification for it, but you may have skills that other people need that don’t necessarily have, you know, very formal credentials, but that people would be happy to pay for.

31:12 Emily: And I think it’s so easy to get caught in this trap of undervaluing yourself inside academia. Like what you were talking about earlier with like the $15 versus $25 per hour negotiation that you did. It’s so common inside academia to undervalue ourselves. We see everybody else doing it, then we do it as well. But if you can take a little bit of a pivot and maybe, you know, market your skills to somebody outside of academia where these are not, you know, a dime a dozen kind of skills that everybody has, then you can, you know, potentially get those higher hourly rates. So, definitely food for thought, I hope, for some people.

Negotiating In-State Tuition

31:42 Emily: So, I think that you are probably the first interview we’ve had on the podcast who is doing like a hundred percent remote program. Not just like remote for COVID or whatever has been going on temporarily. So, you live not in the same state as where your university is. So, how does that work out with your scholarship and with the tuition and everything?

32:02 Brenda: Yeah, so that’s true. I specifically was looking for long-distance programs because I like where I live. I live close to my family, and I knew that a PhD was an experience that I would need support for <laugh>. And so, I didn’t want to leave my support system behind to do that. And so, whenever I got accepted to the University of Oklahoma and I was still living in Texas, and I had no plan to leave Texas, there was the issue of out-of-state tuition costs. And so, I got accepted in about March 2020. I found out I got the scholarship in April of 2020, and I had kind of set that as the bar, like if I get accepted and I get the scholarship, I’ll go, right? But then I thought, well, out-of-state tuition is almost double, right? It’s the difference between $10,000 and $6,000 a semester.

32:58 Brenda: And I just told the director, like I really want to go to this program, and I’m really grateful for the scholarship, but I realized financially that the out-of-state tuition is going to eat up about 50% of my stipend per semester. So, is there any way I could get in-state tuition? And she actually took it up to the graduate college and they agreed to give me a waiver for three years. So, I pay in-state tuition, and actually the great part about being a graduate research assistant is that, when you take on that position, it’s actually the grant that is funding you, that pays the waiver. And so, the waiver that I had originally been promised can be given to someone else while I’m a GRA.

33:44 Emily: Wow. Okay. Another great example of negotiation, and also another kind of general negotiation point that I like to make to prospective graduate students is like, you don’t necessarily know all the different levers that these people behind the scenes can pull to like enhance your package. So, you made the suggestion, maybe I could pay the in-state tuition rate instead of the higher rate, and they made that happen. And if that hadn’t exactly been possible, maybe they could have found a different way to augment your package to make up that, you know, $4,000 per year difference. So, yeah, so encouraging for prospective graduate students.

34:15 Brenda: I do want to mention that one of the points I brought up was that, and maybe this is just using a rivalry to my advantage, but you know, UT Austin and the University of Oklahoma are rivals in football. And UT Austin has a policy that, if you’re an out-of-state student and you come in to Texas with a scholarship from Texas, like if you won a scholarship in Texas, then the University waives your out-of-state tuition. And so, I presented that to the director and I said, you know, UT Austin does this, do you guys do anything like this? And I think that was what helped, you know, is that I had kind of done my research and I was like, you know, this is something another university is doing. Can you guys do it? And they said yes.

34:58 Emily: That’s a great example as well of like sharing of best practices. Hey, these other people have found this solution over here. Sometimes it helps to open their mind. Oh, well, maybe we could find this similar solution. Absolutely.

Money Mindset

35:09 Emily: So, you mentioned, you know, you’ve taken a pretty substantial income cut to pursue the PhD. Are there any other ways that taking this step in your career has impacted your path towards financial independence?

35:23 Brenda: Yeah, like I said, it’s probably a little bit of a setback numbers-wise and on the spreadsheet, but I feel that it’s so valuable to me personally and professionally and in my development as a person, as a researcher, as a scientist, as a nurse. You know, I’m just being challenged to think in ways that I never did before. And my practice in primary care became kind of monotonous and, you know, unfortunately, there wasn’t very much motivating me forward. And I feel totally different now. You know, even though sometimes I’m overwhelmed to learn new things, it’s so cool to like see yourself grow in ways that you never thought you could. And financially like, okay, maybe I’m taking like a $50 or $60,000 per year cut. But in the course of my life, like is three years really going to <laugh> matter that much, you know? And how much more will my life be enriched by having this degree? Like what doors will it open for me, whether they’re monetary or not is not really the point for me anymore. And that’s something that I was able to achieve in my twenties, right? Like that I set myself up to where, whether I make $50,000 or $150,000, what matters most to me now is that I’m happy, that I’m fulfilled, that I’m challenged, that I enjoy the people I work with, that I genuinely feel that I’m making a difference.

36:54 Emily: And it’s just so like gratifying to hear that, you know, the work you did on your finances in your twenties, both before and after discovering the FIRE movement, set you up to have this excellent financial experience during the PhD. Now, part of that is your field, and this is normal and so forth, this fantastic scholarship, you got all of that. But part of that is just, you know, when I was listening to some of your other podcast interviews, I was thinking that you just sound so like, calm about your finances. Like you just sound so like relaxed about them, which is a very different energy than what I give off sometimes, and like other people who I listen to, or interview on the podcast. But that is on the back of all the work that you did in your twenties to lead up to this point.

37:37 Emily: And so, you get to be relaxed because you have this net worth, you have your properties, you have your house hack, and you have this fantastic income. And this is just something that I so wish that more PhD students could experience. Even a fraction of the experience that you’re having, right? Like maybe it’s having the reasonable income for a person in their twenties or thirties. Or maybe it’s, you know, having worked for a few years, building up a bit of a nest egg before taking that income cut the way you have. I just, I love hearing just your whole like, sort of disposition towards this.

38:09 Brenda: Yeah. And I think a lot of it is reorienting your mind to not have a scarcity mindset, right? To kind of have an abundance mindset, like I’m going to thrive and I’m going to find a great job after this. And like I said, I’m just gifted with a naturally positive disposition, but like, I don’t have any worries about what will happen after, because everything’s worked out so far. <Laugh> maybe that’s just because I’ve been so strategic, right? Maybe in some ways I could have relaxed a little bit, but I am very forward-looking, right? I’m always kind of thinking about the next thing. And I have to remind myself to live in the moment, too, but yeah. I think that most PhD students, like you said, undervalue themselves. And I think about my classmates alone. You know, I’m like, they’re so talented, they’re so smart. Some of them are doing this with kids, with a family, taking care of their parents, with a job. And I’m just like, those are skills, right? Like those are highly marketable skills. Like just getting through the program with life the way it is is a crazy good skill. So, I really appreciate that you encourage people to, you know, maybe do some inward thinking about how can I monetize these things that just come naturally to me now in this stage of my life?

What is Coast FI?

39:40 Emily: You said a couple of minutes ago that, well, it doesn’t really matter if I make $50,000 or $150,000 a year. It’s going to be okay. It’s going to work out. That reminded me of the term Coast FI, a particular version of FIRE. Do you think about Coast FI? Would you describe yourself as Coast FI? Let’s define that for the listener.

39:59 Brenda: Yeah. I think traditionally, Coast FI means that your retirement is set, even if you don’t invest another dollar. I wouldn’t say that I don’t need to keep investing. I think I do. But I don’t really see myself retiring early in the traditional like FIRE sense because I have, A) A very useful skill that’s highly needed in this country. B) I speak Spanish, which is really useful in my part of the country. C) I’m just such a busybody. Like I could never stop working, you know, <laugh> like, I just, when people talk about staying home, like with children, I’m like, I could never do that. I could have children, but I’m not staying home with them 100% of the time. So, yeah, Coast FI for me just means that I have the financial flexibility to choose something that means something to me, as opposed to just a means to an end, to like pay my bills. And a part of that has also been keeping my expenses low. But the other part is, like you said, everything I did to set myself up in my twenties. And, you know, a few years ago, I probably would’ve told you that I would quit working at 45. And now that I’ve been in the PhD program, I’m like, no, there’s so much to do. There’s no way I could cut off 15 or 20 years off my career, you know?

41:26 Emily: That’s so interesting that you described earlier kind of finding, getting into like a lull in your career. Like you weren’t so stimulated. And I think that some people, like you did, would see FIRE, the potential to retire early, as the solution to that. And you did, but you also found another solution, which is, you know, taking your career in a slightly different direction, going down the academic path. And you found that reinvigoration there. And now you have kind of choices on both fronts. You have many career options, you have many financial options, to work, to not work, to work in a capacity that other people would not be able to, perhaps, because they hadn’t maybe had all these, you know, made all these decisions in their twenties and so forth. So, kind of the world is your oyster really <laugh> once you finish this program.

42:09 Brenda: Yeah. And things have come up during the PhD program. I don’t know if it’s because of the PhD program, but for example, I was a volunteer vaccinator for a local community center that was giving out COVID-19 vaccines every three weeks. And I was just consistently going, because I just wanted to help my community. And then they reached out to me about being the clinical consultant for their community center, because it was part of their grant. It would help their grant application if they had someone, you know, whose name they could put down, and they offered to pay me for that as well. That was an income source I forgot to tell you about. So, they pay me $500 a month, and I basically like attend some meetings and answer questions about COVID, about the vaccine, about what to do if this or that. And that was something I never would’ve thought I would do. You know? And it’s just like kind of a result of just saying yes, like I was like, well, I don’t see clinical consultant on my resume yet. <Laugh> but I guess I’ll do it. You just tell me what to do and I’ll show up, you know?

43:17 Emily: That comes from having that financial margin in your life and the time margin, right? To be able to say yes to, at first unpaid, but then later look what it turned into, you know, opportunities, which is something I could certainly <laugh> learn from.

Post-PhD Plans

43:29 Emily: Okay. So let’s talk a slight bit more about post-PhD plans. You mentioned earlier, you know, you have a few different career paths that you might choose among. What are you thinking?

43:40 Brenda: So, the idea of working in industry, or like the pharmaceutical area appeals to me because every pharmaceutical company has a medical affairs division in which they have doctoral-level prepared clinicians or pharmacists, which kind of serve as the bridge between the scientists creating the drug or the device and the prescribers out in the world. And so, that’s actually a really lucrative option. Like I know a couple people who do it and they make about $170,000 plus bonuses. So, they’re making like $200,000 a year. So, if I wanted money, that’s what I would do. <Laugh> which I’m not above saying that I want money. Okay. <laugh> so if that job came up, I would definitely consider it. Then there’s obviously the traditional route of pursuing some kind of tenure-track research career in academia. I’m kind of iffy on that. I don’t know that it’s the best use of my strengths. I’m definitely a people person. I’m an extrovert. I can do writing and I can write grants, and I could potentially, you know, try to prove myself to the NIH for the rest of my life <Laugh> to try to get research money, but I’m not sure that I want that.

45:03 Brenda: And then, I could do a blend of clinical practice and teaching where I just teach as an adjunct and I maintain my clinical practice. That’s kind of what I was doing before the PhD. So, I’m not sure that I would really be maximizing what I learned in the PhD if I went back to that. And then there’s a postdoc if I do want pursue research and I just want to get into someone else’s work and see what they’re doing, and maybe that’ll make me more excited about a tenure-track career. And then I was also looking at the National Clinician Scholars Program, which is kind of like a subset of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. And that’s a program at six campuses all over the country in which you basically get more education on health policy and organizational change. And most of the graduates go on to work at like the Department of Health or Health and Human Services or the CDC or some kind of federal agency where policy is happening. So, that’s probably one of my top ones. Pharma’s one of my top ones, and teaching in a, non-research, like very little research, that’s probably my third one.

46:11 Emily: Yeah. Well, hopefully, you have all of those things on the table once you get towards your graduation. And like you said, money could play a role in your decision, or maybe you’ll be following, you know, what seems most interesting to you. And again, the position that you’re in affords you those options. So, it’s wonderful to hear. And I think you said earlier, you know, you’re probably not going to be idle, right? Even once you achieve financial independence, however you want to define that. It sounds like you expect to have a long career, which is, once you’ve invested in something like a PhD program, it’s very, I think, worthwhile to keep your skills out there and keep, you know, working for your communities you’ve said so far. Yeah. Anything else you want to add about what you envision your life to change or not change? Like after you achieve financial independence?

46:57 Brenda: I think as a woman and as someone in their early thirties, you know, one of the big factors in deciding what I do is like, if I want to start a family, and what career option would be most conducive to that. And like you said, I have options, but like women have to think about that more. And especially in academia or in science, like you don’t want to be put on the mommy track, right? So, that’s also something I consider like if I were to have children, would it be right away after the PhD? Would I settle into another job? Like give it a year or two? I’m going to be 33 in September. Like what about my, you know, what about my fertility? Like, there are so many things to think about. And I think that’s very real for a lot of women in academia, right? It’s like juggling your human babies and the baby of your career, which is your research or whatever you’re working on post-PhD.

48:00 Emily: Absolutely. And another thing that having a strong financial position just puts you in a strong position to decide about. If you want to take an extra long maternity leave that’s unpaid, but you have a job to go back to, well, maybe that’s going to be, you know, the best situation for you, or maybe not. Maybe it’ll be a different decision, but whatever you do, I mean, having money gives you options. I say that over and over again, it just gives you options. And that’s really what you have now, which is so delightful to hear.

Where Can People Find You?

48:24 Emily: So, if people want to hear more from you, where can they find you?

48:29 Brenda: I’m on Twitter @almostbrenda, like the word almost, and then my name, almost Brenda. And that’s also my Instagram handle and my email address at Gmail, [email protected]. I’m on LinkedIn. That’s linkedin.com/in/bolmosfnp for family nurse practitioner. And I’d love to connect with people. Even if, you know, even if you just want to talk about how to improve your finances, I know Emily, you’re a great resource for that. And I’ve been in the Community forums there too. But if you’re interested in coming on our podcast, I cohost Minority Millennial Money which is on Apple and Spotify and all of the platforms. We love to have people come on and we talk through their finances with them and see what they could do better. So yeah, I’m easily reachable. I’m all over the internet. <Laugh>

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

49:26 Emily: Wonderful. I hope you’ll have a few people follow up with you from this. Okay. I’m going to conclude with the question that I always ask my guests at the end of interviews, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

49:44 Brenda: I would say it would be to disassociate your self-worth from your net worth, right? Because although I’m in a particularly advantageous position, I know how difficult it must be for people who are not in this position and are looking forward to those days when they get to earn a higher living. And you know, you’re already undervaluing your skills. You’re already in places that may be toxic and not supportive. Like, the very least you could do is like not value yourself based on what’s in your bank account. <Laugh>. And also, if you have the ability to keep investing, like to not lose time, because time is money in the market, right? So, anything you can throw at it is super helpful.

50:32 Emily: Great messages to end on. Brenda, thank you so much for this delightful interview!

50:36 Brenda: Yeah. Thank you!

Outtro

50:42 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student Advocates Individually and Collectively for Higher Stipends

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In this episode, Emily interviews Alyssa Hayes, a rising 4th-year graduate student in nuclear engineering at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. Alyssa is a first-generation college student who experienced food insecurity and other forms of financial precarity as an undergraduate. Now that she earns a stipend of approximately $45,000 per year and lives in a low cost of living city, she feels financially secure—and wants the same for all graduate students. To that end, Alyssa shares two advocacy approaches: 1) Ask for what you need. As a prospective graduate student, she negotiated for a top-up fellowship to be added to her assistantship stipend. 2) Share pay information with your peers across universities and use that data to collectively bargain for higher stipends in individual programs. Alyssa and her peers in nuclear engineering are currently gathering this data, including stipends, benefits, cost of living, and university and departmental ranking.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

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Teaser

00:00 Alyssa: I think that like all grad students should feel as comfortable as I feel in terms of my financial situation. I think that I make a fair wage, and maybe I’m biased because of my previous financial situation, but I personally have no complaints about the amount of money that I’m making right now. I feel supported by my advisor and by my department. I feel that I am valued for my labor. And I think that shows through how much they pay me. And I think that everybody should be able to feel that way about their department and about their advisor.

Introduction

00:44 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 12, Episode 5, and today my guest is Alyssa Hayes, a rising 4th-year graduate student in nuclear engineering at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. Alyssa is a first-generation college student who experienced food insecurity and other forms of financial precarity as an undergraduate. Now that she earns a stipend of approximately $45,000 per year and lives in a low-cost-of-living city, she feels financially secure—and wants the same for all graduate students. To that end, Alyssa shares two advocacy approaches: 1) Ask for what you need. As a prospective graduate student, she negotiated for a top-up fellowship to be added to her assistantship stipend. 2) Share pay information with your peers across universities and use that data to collectively bargain for higher stipends in individual programs. Alyssa and her peers in nuclear engineering are currently gathering this data, including stipends, benefits, cost-of-living, and university and departmental ranking. You won’t want to miss Alyssa’s powerful messages peppered throughout the episode!

02:30 Emily: Longtime listeners of the podcast will remember the interviews I’ve published with Sam Hogan, a mortgage originator specializing in graduate students and PhDs, an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs, and my brother. Several years ago, I told Sam how I’d heard over and over again about graduate students and PhDs being denied mortgage loans because of their unusual income sources and income history and asked him to look into the issue. Following that request, Sam actually developed quite an expertise in this area and is now the go-to mortgage originator for people with non-employee fellowship income. He even found a way around what we thought was an insurmountable barrier in the 3-year continuance requirement. If you’re considering buying a home, especially if you have non-W-2 income, I encourage you to reach out to Sam for a quote. He has a new website, which you can visit at PhDHomeLoans.com, or you can reach him on his cell phone, 540-478-5803. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s12e5/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Alyssa Hayes.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:56 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Alyssa Hayes. She is a rising fourth-year graduate student in nuclear engineering at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. And we have a lot to talk about in terms of like her pay and her money mindset. And I’m really excited for this conversation. So Alyssa, thank you so much for volunteering. And would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

04:16 Alyssa: Thank you for having me! Yeah. So, I’m currently at the University of Tennessee. I did my bachelor’s degree in the same field at the University of Illinois. My current work involves like, you know, fusion engineering, specifically. I do a lot of computational plasma boundary stuff. But yeah, I guess we’re not really talking about any of my technical work today. <Laugh>

Money Mindset Up Until Starting Grad School

04:38 Emily: No, but very related to your experience as a graduate student. So, let’s take it back a little bit and tell me about sort of what your childhood’s like, and specifically how it relates to money and how that sort of developed your money mindset through your childhood and through undergrad, up until you started graduate school.

04:58 Alyssa: Yeah. So, I come from a biracial family, and my father comes from a long line of Americans in the military where, you know, his family was very like blue-collar labor. Like there wasn’t as big of a push to go to college, especially during the time when my dad was growing up in the seventies. And my mom is an immigrant from the Philippines. And her family was not extremely wealthy in the Philippines. And they came here when she was younger to pursue a better life. And she currently works at Walmart and has been for like almost 20 years and has supported my three siblings and me through retail and fast food. So, I was the first person in my family to pursue college. And we lived in an area where we had a lot of, like, there was a lot of really good funding for the school system, even though we weren’t in the nicest part of town. There were other folks who were pretty well-to-do, so I took advantage of everything that I could at that high school. And I got a full ride at the University of Illinois to pursue nuclear engineering. I didn’t have a lot of financial security while I was there, but I didn’t have to worry too much about student debt or tuition or paying fees or anything like that.

Food Insecurity in Undergrad

06:18 Emily: That’s amazing. The full ride to college, and obviously you went after it, <laugh> starting in your earlier years. But tell me a little bit about like the discretion that you had over money. Like, were you budgeting or like, how did you manage it? How did you manage what money you had above that, you know, what’s paying for tuition and room and board and so forth?

06:39 Alyssa: Yeah. So, I was first of all, extremely food insecure and didn’t realize it until I entered grad school. Once a month, I went out to lunch with like a professor who like, he knew I was food insecure, even if I didn’t know I was food insecure, and he would like pay for my food and we would like go somewhere nice that I couldn’t afford to eat at. For the most part, like there were times when like either because I, you know, couldn’t afford to go out to eat as often, but didn’t have the time because I was so stressed out to like make food from home. I like skipped meals often when I was in undergrad. I was very cheap and frugal all the time. I was constantly like thinking about like, I am hungry all the time and like bringing, like, trying to bring snacks with me. Apples were my thing.

07:22 Alyssa: I brought apples everywhere because they were so easy to just grab and then eat on the go. And then it was mostly about trying to make money to pay the bills and to pay rent. My rent, like in undergrad was only like $450 a month. But I worked a minimum wage job in the like plasma lab on campus. And then I worked as a TA as well. So that added stress onto my undergrad. I wish that I didn’t have to have worked so hard in order to like pay to live while trying to be a student. But that’s what it was like. Luckily, I don’t have any student debt now, but I couldn’t really you know, spend the money that was granted for my tuition on, you know, myself or the ability to make ends meet.

08:14 Emily: Yeah. So, I sort of misspoke or misunderstood earlier. You had a full ride in terms of the education cost, but not your living expenses. So, you were working to pay all of your living expenses.

08:25 Alyssa: Yes.

08:25 Emily: Yes. Okay. So that is a little bit like graduate school in a sense, except you didn’t have like a job that you were given. You had to cobble together like multiple sources of income, it sounds like. And there’s more management. You were probably paid, you know, less than maybe the average graduate student is. So, that sounds really stressful.

08:43 Alyssa: I had a little bit of spillover for my scholarships that I had received. So like it paid for like tuition and fees plus a little bit of extra and then like that would go towards rent, but it wasn’t like enough.

Student Loans for Dorm Payment

08:55 Emily: Why didn’t you take out student loans during that time?

08:59 Alyssa: So, I did have to take out student loans during my freshman year to pay for the dorms. Because dorms are a scam. If anyone who’s like not currently in grad school is listening to this, dorms are a scam. Do not live in them longer than you have to. The university says it’s so that way you can you know, help get acclimated to the college experience, but that’s a lie. They’re trying to take your money. I had to take out student loans to pay for those. Other than that, I didn’t take out any other student loans because I was afraid of the debt like piling up. I knew that like one of the types of loans didn’t charge interest until you were done, but the other type of loan did. And I, you know, didn’t want that to accrue while I was in college.

09:38 Alyssa: And I knew that I like had done all my budgeting and I knew that I was able to work to pay for all my stuff. So, I just kind of like, you know, I didn’t think anything was like wrong with the way that I was living. I didn’t see any like problems with like being so frugal or so cheap or skipping meals or missing sleep and stuff. But like, I guess grateful now to past me that I didn’t do that because now I don’t have any student debt. I paid off what little loans I had in like six months. But I did have to like work a lot to get there. But I was also happy doing the work that I did. I enjoyed being a TA and I enjoyed working in a research lab. And honestly, I’m glad that I didn’t end up like working somewhere that didn’t have anything to do with nuclear engineering. So that way I was able to apply all of that to my career trajectory later on in grad school, by having that research experience.

Funding and Finances in Grad School

10:36 Emily: Yeah. This kind of goes to show you like how we aren’t even aware of our own beliefs around money and our own mindsets around money until we sort of consciously try to take a step outside and examine them. And I understand that you can say now, “Oh, past me, I didn’t even know at the time.” You can say things like that because you’ve now reached a new phase in your financial life, which is the graduate student phase. So, tell us about how you’re funded now and how your finances are going.

11:00 Alyssa: Yeah. So, when I was applying to grad schools, I applied to the University of Illinois where I originally wanted to stay because I really loved working for my advisor there. And I also applied to the University of Tennessee because I had, through conferences and networking, I met my current advisor here. And I told both schools that I would stay at Illinois for less. And Illinois didn’t have the power to offer, or like the nuclear engineering program at the University of Illinois, didn’t have the power to offer me more than like the base research assistantship that they offer to like all of the graduate students there. But the University of Tennessee has these like top-off fellowships that they will add to a base stipend in order to get a student to commit to the university who’s maybe deciding between two programs.

12:01 Alyssa: And with just the base stipend, Illinois, I think pays, I might be mistaken on the exact number, but I think they were offering like $26,000 a year. And the University of Tennessee’s base pay at the time was $30,000 per year. We’ve since gotten a raise and now it’s $33K. But the top-off fellowship that was offered to me was $10,000 a year. So then it became a no-brainer. And I was like, I would stay at Illinois for less, but not this much less. And so, now I am making about $45K with bonuses and like a couple of like, you know, service-based scholarships that I get on a somewhat regular basis. So, it kind of evens out to about $45,000 a year with the raise and the top-off fellowship. And so now, I feel like more of a regular adult that has a livable amount of money and I’m not as worried anymore about like, “Oh God, I saw a movie this weekend and now I can’t do anything else fun for the rest of the week.” And so like, I don’t have any of those like worries anymore, but I do still think about them. Like that mindset is always in the back of my mind of like, “Oh, like, is this like a waste of money? I don’t need to be doing this,” or, “This is so expensive,” you know?

$45K Stipend in Knoxville

13:24 Emily: Okay. There was so much in there. So much good stuff that I want to follow-up on. Let’s take it kind of in turns. I want to put a pin in the negotiation part of it. We’ll come back to that in a moment. But let’s focus now on like again, still your money mindset. You just mentioned some of it. You don’t have to be as worried about small joys and extravagances that you allow yourself. So, you’re making about $45,000 a year. Very good stipend for a graduate student, especially in a, you know, lower cost of living area. How, like give us some context about how much that pays for. Because obviously in other areas of the country, $45K is like, “Oh, I’m barely scraping by.”

14:00 Alyssa: Yeah.

14:00 Emily: How does that feel for you right now?

14:03 Alyssa: Knoxville is very affordable to live in. When you’re going to school, like in not really a big city, but more of like a rural part of the country, that definitely helps. Although there’s definitely, you have to balance that with being a person of color, too. So there aren’t other Filipinos, like in this whole city, it seems. I haven’t met any of them or seen anybody else like that’s the same race as me. There’s also a lot of segregation here. And so like, there are parts of town that you can’t go to. So you kind of have to balance that when you’re like, “Oh, if I live somewhere rural, then that’s more affordable to live in,” but there are parts of those areas that also may not be safe for you if you’re in a similar situation.

14:48 Emily: Yeah. I’m glad that you pointed that out because it’s something that I often don’t acknowledge or that can go unacknowledged that people of color in some cases do not have all of the options available to them that White people do, or, you know, other like races. Because as you just said, there are some areas where you can’t live, you have to pay the premium to live in a different area because it’s simply not an option to feel safe, you know, paying the least amount of rent that you could or whatever. So, a very important consideration when people are choosing graduate schools to kind of, to feel out if you are going to feel safe there, and what is the university going to do to support you?

15:21 Alyssa: And while we’re kind of on this, it might also be worth mentioning the current abortion scenario in the United States. If that’s something that matters to you and you have the ability to become pregnant, like a lot of the 26 states that are passing laws that restrict your access to it may also be something to consider because a lot of those contain the rural areas where it is more affordable to attend a university there.

15:46 Emily: Another wrinkle. Yeah. We’re recording this in May, 2022. I don’t know exactly when we’re going to release this. There may be more developments between now and then. But yes, an issue that I think many of us were not expecting to have to consider when we’re choosing graduate school. So, another good point.

Prioritizing Happiness

16:04 Emily: Let’s talk more about the money though. So like, you’re able to pay, you’re able to live a more comfortable lifestyle. Your mindset is still, how is your mindset doing? Like, are you able to splurge on yourself a little bit, or do you still have some of the mindset lingering from when you grew up or your undergraduate experience?

16:22 Alyssa: A lot of it is more, I guess, in the back of my mind, but I have put like a conscious effort into prioritizing my own happiness. Not just in the way of like work-life balance, but financially to ensure that like, you know, spending money on things that make you happy is not wasted money in the same way that spending time on things that make you happy is not wasted time. And so, like I saw two movies this weekend <laugh> instead of one with my partner, because I wanted to and that helped distract me from some heavy things that were going on in my life. And that was money well-spent. Yeah, it wasn’t on a bill, but it’s something that I like, you know, put effort into not feeling bad about that. So, I’ve been dealing with grief this weekend, and I’ve been spending a lot of money, like additional money than I would in any other week on eating out a lot. Just so that way I wouldn’t have to like do household chores, like dishes or worry about cooking while I’m dealing with grief.

17:29 Alyssa: And so like, those are like, you know, that was part of like, I guess, a change in mindset that I noticed where it was easier for me to do that in my current financial scenario, like situation versus when I was in undergrad. Like I had those thoughts in the back my mind of like, “Wow, I’m spending a lot of money. <Laugh> this week alone between, you know, funeral costs and like the additional money I was spending on food.” I’ve easily spent like a thousand dollars in the last four days on not bills, but that was easier for me to accept now and probably even easier now versus like my first year in grad school, when that would’ve been a harder, like mental hurdle to get over.

18:16 Emily: Yeah. And I’m assuming that this simply would not have been an option for you in undergrad to spend in this way. It is not an option for many graduate students, either, who are being paid less. And in our prep for this conversation, you said to me something along the lines of, you know, you’re living well right now given what you’re paid and given the low cost-of-living, and you think that all graduate students should feel this way. Can you elaborate on that a bit?

18:42 Alyssa: Yes. So, currently, like I said, I make $45,000 about per year. And whenever I tell other graduate students that like, sometimes, like I try not to let it like come off as like a brag because of the low cost-of-living in Knoxville, too. But it’s more of that I obviously agree that like everybody should, you know, talk about their wages, especially to your coworkers. Because I think that like all grad students should feel as comfortable as I feel in terms of my financial situation. I think that I make a fair wage, and maybe I’m biased because of my previous financial situation, but I personally have no complaints about the amount of money that I’m making right now. I feel supported by my advisor and by my department. I feel that I am valued for my labor. And I think that shows through how much they pay me. And I think that everybody should be able to feel that way about their department and about their advisor.

Commercial

19:52 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. I have set a big goal for my business and our U.S. PhD community broadly. My goal is for every graduate student, postdoc, or postbac in the U.S. who is not having income tax withheld from their stipend or salary to be offered training on how to 1) estimate their future income tax liability, 2) determine if they are required to pay quarterly estimated tax, and 3) prepare to pay their tax bill or bills through setting up a system of self-withholding. I provide just such a training, which is my asynchronous workshop titled Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. Now, some universities, institutes, or funding agencies already offer such a training, and they have no need to work with me. But others won’t allow their employees to touch the topic of taxes with a 10-foot pole, and that’s where working with me can really benefit everyone. Would you please send me an email and tell me which camp your university falls into—or if it’s somewhere in between? You can reach me at [email protected]. Furthermore, let me know if you want to take Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients for free or think that the cohort coming in this fall should, and I’ll reply with how you can help make that happen. I look forward to hearing from you! Now back to our interview.

Learning to Negotiate

21:33 Emily: I wanted to come back now to the negotiation piece. So, I think you mentioned something like, you know, you told both universities that you would accept a slightly lower stipend from University of Illinois. Tell me like, you even brought up money in these conversations. Like why were you even having conversations with the programs? What gave you the idea that you could talk about this and that maybe there would be more for you there?

21:56 Alyssa: So, part of it was because while I was at the University of Illinois, I got comfortable asking for money. One by being a leader in a lot of the different like student programs and then having to correspond regularly with the staff and the department head there. So, I knew a lot of those people well, and at one point I wanted to go to the Nuclear Innovation Bootcamp in the year 2017. And there was like obviously paying for travel flight costs. I didn’t have to pay for lodging as part of that Bootcamp, but there was also a hefty registration fee and I couldn’t afford any of that. And so, like there was no route to like ask for it to be paid for. There was no like standardized path or form that you could fill out for things to be waived.

22:46 Alyssa: So, I wrote like a little one-page request to my department saying like, this is this program. I really want to go. This is what I’m going to get out of it. Will you pay for it? And then at the very bottom, it said more information about why I may qualify for financial need available upon request. But I didn’t really like talk about my financial situation. I just explained what the program was, and why I wanted to go. And I gave that to them, and with no further questions they paid for everything. I think they even, I want to say they reimbursed my flights, but if I hadn’t bought them, they may have paid for them in advance. I don’t quite remember. But I had realized that like they wanted to support me, and that they were okay with students kind of going the outside-of-the-box route in terms of asking for money.

23:38 Alyssa: And that was when I was a sophomore in college. So, that gave me the confidence, then, when I was in grad school to ask for a higher rate or wage when I was applying to grad school. And they, unfortunately, weren’t able to do it or I don’t, you know, necessarily know all the behind-the-scenes that went on there. And sure, they said no, but I wasn’t at all reprimanded for asking in the first place. Like nothing, you know, bad happened to me. The best that I could have done was ask, even if they said no. So, I’m glad that I did. And it turned out well for me because at the University of Tennessee, I didn’t even know that there were top-off fellowships. But I got one because I was upfront with the University of Tennessee about how I would have, you know, taken the lower offer elsewhere and about how I was considering other schools and kind of in the same way that you’re like, I learned how to like negotiate a car price down from my dad.

24:36 Alyssa: So that was, I guess, a little bit of a privilege that I had because I had to buy a car to like move to Tennessee, because they have terrible public transit here. It’s kind of the whole tell the other you know, person that you’re negotiating with about this other thing that you’re also considering. Make that look nice and shiny. So that way they’ll try to give you a little bit of a better offer. I ended up also getting this laptop and all of the accessories that go with it out of the same deal with my current advisor. Like I asked them to buy me, you know, personal equipment that I could use to like, you know, be a person outside of grad school, too. Like I didn’t have a functioning laptop at the time. And so all of that got thrown in as well.

25:23 Emily: I think that’s such a powerful message, like, and I’m glad that you learned it as a sophomore in college and that you were able to then apply it in your process for applying to graduate school. Like just ask, like, just let people know of your need and let them figure out how they can best, you know, work behind-the-scenes to make that happen for you. So, you got this amazing like top-up fellowship. I mean, $10,000 is a very significant, you know, add-on to an already, you know okay base stipend. So, that sounds amazing. Just, I think this is a wonderful message for any prospective graduate students, or anybody at any stage, really just ask for what you need. Let people know, and especially like you said that you have options and this would help your decision. I think you said earlier, like it was a no-brainer to go with the University of Tennessee once they made that, you know, augmentation to their offer. So, so glad to hear that.

Normalizing Talking About Grad Student Stipends

26:12 Emily: Let’s talk more about stipends for other graduate students as well. So, I understand you’ve recently kind of entered into some conversations with peers about how we can, union is not the right word, but sort of collectively bargain or like share information about stipends. So, tell me more about that endeavor.

26:33 Alyssa: Yeah. So, normalizing talking about our wages is like step one in changing the culture around laborers. So that way we can all benefit collectively. But we kind of wanted to take this a little bit of a step further among nuclear engineering grad students specifically because by going to conferences and networking, not just with employers or other universities, et cetera, but we also spend that time networking with each other. And so, because it’s so common for grad students to kind of see the same people all the time in the nuclear engineering programs, because we’re so small, a lot of us just know each other from like all across the country. And I know that this isn’t something that a lot of other fields have the benefit of because it’s not realistic for like every electrical engineering graduate student to all know each other.

27:31 Alyssa: But at least to know somebody who knows somebody at pretty much any nuclear engineering graduate program is realistic for us. So, we got together at the most recent student conference. And we are currently building a spreadsheet that has everybody’s like gross pay, all of the things that you have to pay for that are related to your health insurance or your academic costs, your fees, and then what your take-home pay is, and then comparing all of that to the cost-of-living based on where your university is, your university’s ranking, and your department’s ranking. So, that way you can kind of compare and contrast. So that way, if there is a department that is ranked highly compared to its university’s ranking, which implies that that department has more power to maybe change the pay that their graduate students are receiving, but those graduate students maybe aren’t being paid well, then they can use the collective sheet to say like, this is where we’re falling right now, compared to how much these other similar programs are paying their graduate students. And we think that you should, you know, value our labor a little bit more and that we deserve to have higher wages. And so, use like that collective information for other institutions to bargain. So that way maybe they can get the same level of financial comfort that I am afforded right now.

29:07 Emily: This is an amazing effort. I totally commend you and your peers for like this idea, and starting work on this. It sounds like you’re in the data collection stage.

29:17 Alyssa: Yes.

29:17 Emily: Is that right? Like you’re building the spreadsheet, putting in all these different factors. I love that you mentioned like ranking of university, because I have some work in this area as well, and I just think about cost-of-living. I don’t think about like how, you know, the university is regarded or their program is regarded. So, I think that’s a really interesting like additional element. I’m not sure when this episode will come out in relation to these other ones, but I have some other podcast episodes slated for 2022 on this same issue of like sort of information-sharing about stipends and bargaining in some manner to increase stipends. So, this is wonderful and it aligns very well with that.

Health Insurance (Non-)Coverage

29:53 Alyssa: The thing that like, the one piece of information that like made it, like click in my brain where I was like, “We need to like, do something more about this and just talk about our pay,” was that one of the grad students that I didn’t even know well, like while I was at U of I, that I was just kind of like chatting with at a social at this conference told me that his health insurance was not covered. And like, mine is, like, I don’t, it’s not taken out of my pay. Like, yes, it’s like technically like, “Oh, like you could have just, you know, they could have just given me the money that they’re using to pay for my health insurance,” but like the University of Illinois’ grad student health insurance is like taken out of their pay. So, that’s like a part of like the gross pay that they advertise. And I was like, that’s not cool. <Laugh> what do you mean your health insurance isn’t covered? So then I asked to have a meeting with the department head there because I like knew him well from when I was a student there. And he actually was the one who gave me the idea. He was like, why don’t you get more of this information from other schools? And then, so we’ll go from there.

30:59 Emily: That’s excellent. And I totally agree, like in PhD Stipends as well, I have a way to enter like what your stipend is, but then like, what are you paying out of that stipend in terms of fees and tuition and whatever. And like for health insurance and other types of fees as well, like that can add up to thousands of dollars a year. So, that’s not some insignificant like, oh, it’s a $20 fee, whatever. This is a really big percentage of like that overall stipend that they’re receiving.

31:23 Alyssa: Yeah.

31:24 Emily: The other thing I’m really excited about for your project too, is like this fellowship that you received is probably one that’s offered sometimes to other students as well. So, it’s good to have both sets of information, right? Like what’s the base stipend and then, “Oh, sometimes this additional funding is available.” Wouldn’t it be great if we could pull everybody up to that level or, you know, that kind of thing? So, I just, if you aren’t already, I would definitely encourage you to include that kind of information as well in the spreadsheet. What different students are being paid, even within the same department.

31:52 Alyssa: Yeah, we did get a raise this year, which took effect about two months ago. So, because of the change in the economy throughout the pandemic, all graduate students in the nuclear engineering department at the University of Tennessee received a 10% stipend raise. So, full research assistants are now making 33 instead of $30,000 per year as the base-level stipend. Additionally, this was through the effort of our nuclear engineering graduate student assembly, which is kind of like also not a union, but a collection of just the nuclear engineering grad students. We managed to through a couple of years actually of pressure convince our department to begin covering our academic fees. So, which also kind of feels like a raise in terms of take-home pay. So, now we no longer have to pay as much and many students don’t have to pay any fees anymore for things like, you know, your basic like academic, you know, transportation fee, student health center fee, recreational fee. So, all of that is pretty much covered now.

33:02 Emily: For sure. And it makes it so much easier to compare apples to apples, right? When those kinds of fees are covered. But I’m sure in your spreadsheet you’ll be accounting for everything. So, I love this idea. I’m so excited for y’all to like move forward with this and hope it comes together in the near future.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

33:16 Emily: Well, Alyssa, it’s been such a pleasure to talk with you and I’m so glad that you volunteered to be on here, and you’ve had so many really vital messages that have come through in this interview. And I’m really grateful for that. I wrap up all my interviews by asking my guests one final question, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve already touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

33:39 Alyssa: I had a similar question asked of me in my most recent D&D session with my friends. Just like we were talking after. And, specifically, their question was, how much of my success is rooted in like just being confident? And that applies to so much in that, like I had the confidence to ask to go to all these different programs, the Bootcamp, to different conferences. And when I’m at conferences, then while I’m there, I’m networking with all these different potential employers and powerful people, like some of my future reference letter writers are people that I’ve only ever interacted with at conferences and have no other like relationship with them. And so, by networking with those people that, you know, that’s how I met my current advisor, and that’s how he learned about my work.

34:42 Alyssa: And that gave me the confidence to then talk to him about my financial situation. And you know, even asking to go to conferences in the first place built my confidence in asking for funding and asking for a raise. And it really taught me that, I mean, the best thing you can do is to at least ask and see if, you know, people will just give you money. Because sometimes they will. So, I don’t necessarily like the mindset of, you know, just apply to everything because it also can take resources and time. But apply to the things that you can, or that you have the spoons to. And it’s a way to try to tackle imposter syndrome is to know that other people have it too, but you deserve to have the confidence, regardless of any imposter syndrome you might have, to put yourself out there.

35:41 Emily: Thank you so much, Alyssa, for those concluding thoughts. Again, it’s been great to have you. Thank you so much!

35:46 Alyssa: Yeah. Thank you! Thank you for having me!

Outtro

35:53 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance…but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student’s Finances and Mental Health Were Stuck in a Negative Feedback Loop

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Haley Sanderson, a postdoc at the University of Saskatchewan. Haley was dramatically underpaid during graduate school and discouraged from working on the side. While many of her peers lived hand to mouth, Haley’s situation was made more dire by her at-the-time undiagnosed and untreated mental health disorder. Haley entered a negative feedback loop in which her finances, mental health, and physical health deteriorated together. Emily and Haley discuss what her program could have done to ameliorate this negative spiral and why it’s vital to sufficiently financially support PhD trainees. Haley concludes with her very practical financial advice for anyone at a career transition point.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Image for S12E4: This Grad Student's Finances and Mental Health Were Stuck in a Negative Feedback Loop

Teaser

00:00 Haley: My suggestion would be, if somebody’s in my situation, to go get the help you need and get the financial help that you need, even if it means taking out loans. Because it’s much better to have the financial debt than the mental health debt.

Introduction

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 12, Episode 4, and today my guest is Dr. Haley Sanderson, a postdoc at the University of Saskatchewan. Haley was dramatically underpaid during graduate school and discouraged from working on the side. While many of her peers lived hand to mouth, Haley’s situation was made more dire by her at-the-time undiagnosed and untreated mental health disorder. Haley entered a negative feedback loop in which her finances, mental health, and physical health deteriorated together. We discuss what Haley’s program could have done to ameliorate this negative spiral and why it’s vital to sufficiently financially support PhD trainees. Haley concludes with her very practical financial advice for anyone at a career transition point.

01:44 Emily: I have set a super audacious goal for my business and our U.S. PhD community broadly. It’s actually a bit difficult for me to even speak it out loud! My goal is for every graduate student, postdoc, or postbac in the U.S. who is not having income tax withheld from their stipend or salary to be offered training on how to 1) estimate their future income tax liability, 2) determine if they are required to pay quarterly estimated tax, and 3) prepare to pay their tax bill or bills through setting up a system of self-withholding. I am passionate about this topic because surprise tax bills, high tax bills, and fines are an almost completely preventable source of financial strife for my community, and all that’s needed is a bit of education delivered at the right time. I provide just such a training, which is my asynchronous workshop titled Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. Most of you have heard me talk about it before, and some of you have taken it. The perfect time to give PhD trainees access to this workshop is when they start or switch onto non-W-2 income, which often happens near the start of the academic year, i.e., the near future.

03:08 Emily: If you share my passion—or maybe it’s more of a frustration for you—and know that your university is not already providing sufficient training in this area, would you please recommend that your graduate school, postdoc office, graduate student association, or department sponsor my workshop for those interested in taking it? You might want to take it yourself, or perhaps you just want to save the entering cohort the time and energy it took you to figure this all out on your own. To make this recommendation, simply email the potential sponsor with the reason you are recommending the workshop and this link: PFforPhDs.com/sponsorqetax/. If you’re comfortable with it, you can Cc me [email protected], and I can pick up the conversation. Thanks for participating with me in trying to reach this goal! I know it will prevent a lot of people in our community from experiencing tax-related financial emergencies next spring.

You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s12e4/.

Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Haley Sanderson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:33 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Haley Sanderson, who is a postdoc at the University of Saskatchewan, and she is coming on the podcast to talk about a really sensitive topic, which is living on a very low graduate student stipend while dealing with mental illness. So, Haley, I’m really pleased that you volunteered to be on the podcast to talk about this important topic. So, would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

04:58 Haley: Hi, I’m Haley. I have a PhD in environmental studies where I specialize in environmental microbiology and biotechnology. I finished my PhD in five years defending and graduating in fall 2018, since then I’ve completed postdocs with the Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Dalhousie University, and I’m now a postdoc in the Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization at the University of Saskatchewan. And I’m currently applying for more full-time permanent gigs <laugh>.

05:37 Emily: Well, best of luck with that. Okay. So we’re going to go back to your grad school years, and most of my listeners are going to be in the U.S. So, could you please explain, give some context for how you are funded during your PhD?

Funding During the PhD

05:53 Haley: So, during my PhD, I started as a master’s student, so I actually started on a much lower stipend of about $14K Canadian. So, to get that money, I had to TA for about two semesters every year and then do a research assistantship in the summer. I was a master’s student for a year, and then I bumped up to be a PhD. I ended up getting three provincial scholarships in Ontario that bumped my stipend up to $25K, which is only a little bit higher than the base stipend for a PhD student. So, with that stipend, we actually have to pay tuition out of it. So, not all of it gets to go to living. You also have to pay your tuition out of the money that they give you. So, the actual amount that I lived off of was much smaller than the stipend that I got <laugh>.

07:14 Emily: Yeah. Well, let us know, do you remember the numbers on that? Like after paying the tuition, what amount were you living off of? And then give us some context for, like, how does that compare to the local cost of living?

07:26 Haley: I don’t know the exact numbers, but tuition was about $2,000 a semester, I would say, for about $6,000 a year. So, when I was on my original master’s stipend, I only had maybe $8K <laugh>, which is a little <laugh> insane. I had a lot more to live off of once I was in the PhD program. So, when I was a master’s student, I actually had to work, but there were some problems with the department not wanting me to work and kind of threatening to take away the stipend that was paying like my tuition and my rent.

Challenges to Supplementing the Stipend

08:09 Emily: Yeah. I mean, the numbers that you’re throwing out there sound incredibly low. It’s not surprising at all to me that you would, you know, seek other sources of income. Was that something that your peers were doing as well? Was the department also like threatening other peers who were working, or how were they making ends meet?

08:27 Haley: A lot of the other people in my department had like side gigs that they’d only do every once in a while. A lot of people hid if they had part-time jobs. Unfortunately, I worked close to the university and some of them saw me working, so that didn’t work out too well <laugh>.

08:48 Emily: How was that resolved? Did you have to give up the side job?

08:53 Haley: Some of the admins helped me apply to the provincial scholarships. And once I got the provincial scholarships, I was kind of told to get rid of the part-time job.

09:03 Emily: And would you say that when you had that higher $25K minus, okay, let’s say $19K per year stipend during the latter part of your PhD, was that enough to survive, or did you feel like you would’ve worked more if you were allowed to?

09:18 Haley: I probably would’ve worked more, but I think I would’ve had trouble doing that with the mental illness, because there were a lot of things that that impacted. Like my eating, my sleeping, my social life were also impacted by finances, and moreso by the mental health problems.

Mental Health Impact on Money Mindset

09:41 Emily: Yeah. Let’s talk about that more now. So, you had an undiagnosed slash untreated mental health condition at that time. So, how was that affecting how you handled your finances?

09:54 Haley: So, I have a psychotic disorder that causes me to have delusions and hallucinations that are usually really disparaging and kind of controlling. So, let’s say, for instance, when I got accepted into the master’s program, my mom made a comment that my brothers paid for their second degrees. And that kind of morphed in my mind to my parents won’t help me at all, so don’t ask them. Even when I tried to apply for like student loans, I kind of got it in my head that I would never be able to pay them back. So, it was kind of like a brick wall to actually apply for that. There were other things in my life, like I couldn’t eat certain foods because I thought I’d get really sick and stuff like that. So, it was essentially that I couldn’t really do anything to help my situation because my brain would tell me, like, you can’t actually do this.

10:58 Emily: Wow. Yeah. I had not like, thought about that or realized that was a potential, you know, symptom that some people could be experiencing. So, thank you for sharing that. I do a lot of like, how do we find workarounds on this podcast? Or like breaking through like your money mindset stuff. But like when you’re dealing with a serious mental health condition, that’s simply not an option without higher-level treatment, right? Which you eventually got, and we’ll get to that. And so, how then also did having such a low income during graduate school affect your ability to get diagnosed or treated?

11:33 Haley: I started to have psychotic episodes during my third year of my undergrad. And at that time, I went to go see a doctor and that doctor gave me antidepressants, which there was a co-pay for. And he wrongly sent me home without doing any more assessment and essentially told me, you might be developing schizophrenia, we’ll see <laugh>, which is not the best thing <laugh>. So, I was already on a very small budget when I was in undergrad. My parents paid for like my tuition and my rent. So, I was never in a situation where I would be homeless, but I was still in a situation where I didn’t have that much money. If I were in that situation now where I’m on my antipsychotic and my antidepressant, the antidepressant is maybe a couple dollars a month, but if I didn’t have benefits my antipsychotic would be over $200 a month.

12:43 Haley: So, part of the reasons why I stopped taking the medication at that point was, one, that it caused pretty severe hallucinations, more than I had before I got on the medication, because it was the wrong one. And the other thing was that I didn’t necessarily want to pay for it <laugh> because it was making me feel worse. So, I was kind of in denial that I needed them when I was in grad school, because I could no longer tell if I was feeling well, or if I was sick. Everything just kind of melded together. So, in terms of the impact of having a really low budget in grad school, I couldn’t eat properly. I maybe spent $30 a week on food, and I pretty much ate the same things all the time. Like rice, lentils, beans, and apples.

13:48 Haley: I was so worried about things that I also didn’t sleep. And by that I would mean I would be in the lab for maybe 16 hours a day and I’d go home and sleep for four to six hours. And one of the big things about controlling psychosis is that you need to get enough sleep. So now, I actually need close to eight to 10 hours on average. So, that was a pretty big impact. And it certainly didn’t help the delusions that I couldn’t get financial help <laugh>. It was kind of like a feedback loop.

14:27 Emily: I was just going to say that sounds exactly like a negative spiral, right? Like you are having tight money issues, so you forgo the medicinal and also other forms of self-care that maybe were somewhat available to you. And then your mind is also telling you that you can’t access or don’t deserve those things. And then it loops around again. So yeah, that sounds horrible.

Financial Stress and Sacrifices on a Low Stipend

14:56 Emily: You just mentioned living off of a really small, like food budget, for example. So, were there other things that you didn’t spend on that you forwent spending on to make that really low stipend work?

15:10 Haley: I didn’t go out very often and kind of avoided any social situation where I might have to pay for stuff. Particularly in my first two years. After my first two years, I moved somewhere with a better cost of living. I kind of filled my time only with work because I couldn’t really afford to have hobbies <laugh>. At one point when I decided to move in my second, third year, I had to give up a cat that was kind of my emotional <laugh> animal at that time, because I couldn’t move them across the country to where I was working. I didn’t go home for Christmas, and I barely saw my family because I really couldn’t afford to go on a bus or go on a plane. I didn’t take a vacation throughout my entire PhD. I didn’t date anyone during my entire PhD. And I avoided buying anything other than food. So, I would wear clothes until they like physically fell apart. Same with shoes. I’d wait until I really, really had to. So, I essentially forgo like anything that would be making me kind of happier <laugh>. So, it really wasn’t ideal.

16:39 Emily: Yeah. I realized that I kind of phrased that question as like, “Oh, what are the great strategies you used?” Not that I meant it that way, but this is not at all a laudable list, right? This is all a list of things that caused you to become even more unhealthy. And again, in that spiral that we were just talking about, and to not be able to break out of it. Like having an injection of some extra money, I mean, it would also help if your mind were, you know, allowing you to spend on these things, but having some extra money would’ve helped your general mental health, but also specifically your condition so much. It’s so obvious that that would be the case. I’m just like hearing a picture of you like drowning during graduate school. Financially, mentally. And I’m wondering about the people around you, like your advisor or other people in your department. Like, was there anything that they could have done? I’m asking this in a way of like, what can other people listening to this, take away if they see a peer or someone in their program that is to say, maybe they’re a faculty member or someone else who has a bit of power in the situation too. Like what, what should they have been doing or what could they have done to help you out of this spiral?

What Could Have Helped?

17:59 Haley: In some ways, there wasn’t really much people could do. In terms of what the department did, they tried to help me get scholarships, which did make the situation a lot better. There is an opportunity to do like graduate assistant work that I did for two summers. That was really helpful. Maybe having like emergency funds that are easy to apply to would be very useful too. But a lot of the time, I didn’t think that my, I couldn’t tell that my situation wasn’t normal <laugh> because a lot of my peers had similar problems. Probably not to the same mental extent, but in terms of money, it was pretty common. And maybe just increasing the stipend would make a big difference. I checked the department’s website and it looks like the PhD stipend has increased, but the master’s stipend is still quite low. But that would be what I would think of when I think of what the department could do to help people.

19:09 Emily: Absolutely. I think pay graduate students more. Pay graduate students enough that they don’t experience the things that you mentioned, like not being able to go home and visit your family members, never going out socially if there was, you know, a possibility you might spend money. In addition to just being like the compassionate thing to do for students who are under your charge, as well as, especially if you’re not going to allow them to work or whatever, they’re not developing. You were not developing as a scholar in the way you could have. You could have blossomed even more, had you been sufficiently financially supported. Same goes for your peers too. So, it’s just really, it’s very hard for me <Laugh>, I’m sure for the listeners as well, to hear how much you were struggling and how big of a difference, you know, a few more thousand dollars a year from your department would’ve made, and what exactly is tying their hands to make that not happen? If their goal is to develop scholars and PhDs, they could do that even better by financially supporting them better. That’s how I view it.

20:12 Haley: Yeah.

Commercial

20:15 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. I have set a big goal for my business and our U.S. PhD community broadly. My goal is for every graduate student, postdoc, or postbac in the US who is not having income tax withheld from their stipend or salary to be offered training on how to 1) estimate their future income tax liability, 2) determine if they are required to pay quarterly estimated tax, and 3) prepare to pay their tax bill or bills through setting up a system of self-withholding. I provide just such a training, which is my asynchronous workshop titled Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. Now, some universities, institutes, or funding agencies already offer such a training, and they have no need to work with me. But others won’t allow their employees to touch the topic of taxes with a 10-foot pole, and that’s where working with me can really benefit everyone. Would you please send me an email and tell me which camp your university falls into—or if it’s somewhere in between? You can reach me at [email protected]. Furthermore, let me know if you want to take Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients for free or think that the cohort coming in this fall should, and I’ll reply with how you can help make that happen. I look forward to hearing from you! Now back to our interview.

Ending the Negative Spiral

21:56 Emily: So, how did you ultimately end this spiral that you were in? Did you get on medication? Did you see different doctors? Was it a matter of graduating? Like what happened?

22:06) Haley: Graduating was actually the worst thing that happened <laugh>. So, I had to pay for my ticket to do my defense because I was living in Alberta at the time and I had to come back to Ontario, and that actually completely depleted my bank account. If I hadn’t gotten a job pretty much right away, I would not have had a place to stay and I wouldn’t have been able to go home at all. I ended up going through an even bigger spiral where I entered like acute psychosis. Like the CRA is after me <laugh> kind of psychosis or people are actively following you and you’re hearing complete conversations and more disparaging comments and so on. I essentially kept working for almost six months with acute psychosis. And then I finally hit a point where I couldn’t do it anymore and I realized that there was something incredibly wrong.

23:21 Haley: So, I ended up going to the doctor who tried to put me on an antipsychotic, but I essentially spiraled further when I got onto the antipsychotic because it was essentially too late to be putting me on it in an outpatient location. So, I ended up having to go to the ER twice. The first time there wasn’t a psychiatrist. So, they sent me home. The second time, I was essentially really dehydrated, only weighing 80 pounds and completely out of reality <laugh> essentially. So, the psychiatrist put me into inpatient care and I stayed there for a month where they put me on medication and I essentially slept because I was burnt out from work and the PhD. So, it’s taken probably two and a half years to get on the right medication and recover fully from that.

24:23 Haley: Starting a postdoc that actually pays me enough to live has been pretty helpful <laugh> in that because I’ve been able to start eating more healthy. I’m not as worried. And I have the psychosis under control between medication and therapy. So, I’m sleeping a normal amount. I’m eating a normal amount. I’m exercising because I can afford to go to the gym and like go to spin class and stuff like that. One of the weird things is I actually got out of the grad school with absolutely no debt because I couldn’t actually apply for the loans. Like my head would not let me apply for them. So, I ended up getting out with absolutely no debt, but also absolutely no money <laugh>. So, I was really lucky that I was offered a job right away. After I was hospitalized, I had to take three months off. So, I actually lost the job that I had gotten and I had to find another job, which I had to move across the country for. And then after that job, I had to move across the country again, which has always been kind of a financial burden, but that’s just kind of how my job goes <laugh>. But I’m doing much, much better than I was doing in grad school and have a lot of things more under control.

Paying Off the Mental Health Debt

25:57 Emily: I am so glad to hear that you’re in a much better place right now. Although it does seem to me that it’s taken a long, long time to get there. I mean, you mentioned that you came out of graduate school with no financial debt, but you had a debt to yourself of another kind, right? Of having not taken care of yourself and had been on the medication and doing the sleeping and the eating and all that stuff. So like, you still had to come out of that depth of the, you know, of care that you needed to get back up to the point you’re at now, the stable and healthy point.

26:32 Haley: I would say that I would’ve rathered have the financial debt than the mental debt. So like, my suggestion would be if somebody’s in my situation to go get the help you need and get the financial help that you need, even if it means taking out loans. Because it’s much better to have the financial debt than the mental health debt.

26:57 Emily: I totally agree. And I’m really glad to hear you say that. I don’t want to criticize other people either in their financial situations, but when you’re in a unique time of life, like being a graduate student and it is ideally time-limited and you’ll move on to having a better-paying job later on, it can, in some situations make sense to take out debt and some people feel so debt-averse that they, and I’m not saying you did this because you had this mental health condition, but they put themselves into debts of these other kinds. They’re not eating properly. Maybe they are not living in a safe situation. Again, I don’t want to sound like I’m criticizing them, but they do as a graduate student, at least in the U.S., have the option of taking out debt and alleviating some of that.

27:43 Emily: And so, I just want them to think about that as a legitimate option and not something that’s completely off-limits to them to help this short-term cash crisis that they’re in during graduate school. Again, the responsibility for that as we were talking about earlier falls much more on the programs underpaying people. That’s on them, rather than the people who are being underpaid. But that is a way out of a very difficult short-term situation. And like you said, you would’ve rather had a bit of money to pay off than having these years and years that it’s taken you to recover from the state that you were in by the end of graduate school.

Save Money and Study the Financial Side of Grad School

28:20 Emily: Do you have any other advice for prospective graduate students who are walking into programs like you did your master’s, your PhD program, who are potentially being radically underpaid compared to the local cost of living?

28:37 Haley: I would mostly work for a while and save money before you go to grad school. I wasn’t in a situation where I thought I could do that, but if I could do it again, I probably would’ve started working right away and then decided if I wanted to do grad school after I’ve made a little bit of money <laugh>. Make sure that whatever program that you want to go into does have a fair stipend. I didn’t even think of that when I joined grad school, but that should have been a much bigger consideration than what it was for me because I’m first-generation. I didn’t think that they would give me a stipend that I couldn’t live off of <laugh>.

29:17 Emily: Misplaced trust.

29:19 Haley: Yeah <laugh>. I would maybe do a little more digging on the financial side before starting grad school.

29:27 Emily: Yeah. I think those are great suggestions for someone considering graduate school. Definitely look into the stipends versus the local cost of living. I have a website that helps with that. At least if you’re in the U.S., which is called PhDstipends.com. So you can see what other graduate students actually report as being their income, not what the programs tell you they’re paying. Those might be two different things until you get the offer letter, at least. So you can kind of do some pre-research on the programs that you’re planning on applying to, to see if they’re paying a living wage or not. And like you said, I think a lot more people should be considering working for a decently-paying job for a year or two or three before they start graduate school to build up some kind of financial safety net so that they don’t have to do things like you were just mentioning, the cost of moving multiple times across the country.

30:13 Emily: That’s very significant. And if you end up paying for that, let’s say with like credit cards, because you don’t have the savings or cash to do it, then you’re kind of starting graduate school like already knocked back, already knocked onto your back foot, like financially, because you’re now having to pay down credit card debt in addition to living on this very, very small stipend. So instead, if you can have that savings, so, so helpful to just kind of get out ahead of these issues. So, that’s great advice for prospective graduate students. And thank you for giving that.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

30:43 Emily: I do end my interviews with a standard question that I ask all of my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve talked about in the course of the interview, or it could be something completely new.

30:55 Haley: If you’re a postdoc, I’d start saving and get a retirement fund and maybe a rainy day fund. Because postdocs are fairly short for most people, and you’re probably going to have to move again and things come up. So, it’s good to start saving once you can start saving after grad school. And kind of the same advice for looking at a postdoc. Make sure the salary is enough to live comfortably on before you agree to do it. It’s not a nice thing to accept a salary and then get to the city and realize that you can’t really live there <laugh>. And maybe try to negotiate your salary if you can.

31:45 Emily: All wonderful advice. I’m recalling actually, when my husband got a postdoc offer in Boston, we were living in Durham, North Carolina at the time. So kind of moderate cost of living to high cost of living. And we calculated it after accounting for the cost of living change between those two cities. He was actually being offered effectively less money than he had made as a graduate student with that postdoc position in Boston. And he did try to negotiate and he got them to increase the offer very, very slightly. And ultimately did not take that offer and finances were, you know, a part of that decision. And so, I totally agree with you, especially if you have not yet lived in a city, whether it’s for grad school, for postdoc, anything else. You need to really investigate what the cost of living is because you just don’t know until you actually live there. And by the time you accept an offer and move, it’s too late <laugh>. You need to do as much as you can in advance. So, Haley, thank you so much for being willing to give this interview. I think it was a really important conversation that the listeners are going to benefit so much from. So, so glad to hear you doing well. And thanks again for volunteering!

32:50 Haley: Thanks for having me!

Outtro

32:58 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance…but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

The Tech Entrepreneuroscientist on Happiness and Financial Independence

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Sharena Rice, who recently completed her PhD in neuroscience at the University of Michigan. At the start of grad school, Sharena defined what she considers “the good life” and made sure that she lived according to her values. She committed herself to simple living so that she could invest over half of her stipend and pursue adventures. One element of Sharena’s good life is fulfilling work, so she became involved with five start-ups during grad school to gain experience with entrepreneurship. Don’t miss this unique and insightful interview!

Links Mentioned in the Episode

the tech entrepreneuroscientist on happiness and financial independence

Teaser

00:00 Sharena: If compound interest works in this way, and I can reasonably expect this amount if things perform averagely, then this is how my future will turn out if I save an extra $5 a day, for instance. And seeing how little tweaks could make a big difference.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 12, and today my guest is Dr. Sharena Rice, who recently completed her PhD in neuroscience at the University of Michigan. At the start of grad school, Sharena defined what she considers “the good life” and made sure that she lived according to her values. She committed herself to simple living so that she could invest over half of her stipend and pursue adventures. One element of Sharena’s good life is fulfilling work, so she became involved with five start-ups during grad school to gain experience with entrepreneurship. Don’t miss this unique and insightful interview! Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Sharena Rice.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:19 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Sharena Rice. She recently defended her PhD in neuroscience at the University of Michigan. And she’s going to tell us a really exciting, big financial story about what she’s done with her finances during graduate school, and also what’s coming up next. She’s been involved with entrepreneurship, which is super exciting. So Sharena, thank you so much for volunteering to be on the podcast. And will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

01:43 Sharena: Thank you so much, Emily. I have recently defended my PhD in neuroscience from the University of Michigan. I like to refer to myself as a tech entrepreneuroscientist because I’m both a technology entrepreneur and a neuroscientist. I have roles in five different startups ranging from co-founder and a C-suite executive to advisor. And it’s been a rewarding journey.

02:10 Emily: Yeah. I’m excited to hear more about that a little bit later on. So give us an idea, like briefly, like where did you go to undergrad? Of course I mentioned University of Michigan for grad school. Like, what’s been your educational background?

02:23 Sharena: For undergrad, I studied biochemistry and molecular biology and minored in philosophy and psychology, and felt myself being pulled in these three seemingly completely different directions. But I realized that I could combine them all by being a neuroscientist. So I did a Post-baccalaureate Research Education Program, the PREP program at the University of Michigan and decided to stay for graduate school.

Money Mindset at the Start of Post-Bacc

02:51 Emily: That’s perfect. I did a post-bacc as well at the NIH before starting at Duke. And it was really, you know, during that post-bacc, I had just graduated from college, like you did, that I started learning about personal finance. Because it was for me the first time I’d had like a semi full-time income to deal with. Tell me a little bit about your money mindset, where you stood with respect to your finances, at the start of that post-bacc.

03:17 Sharena: Before my post-bacc, when I was an undergraduate, I was doing various tutoring gigs because I realized that I could make a lot more money by tutoring on my own, rather than through some kind of agency. So I started budgeting things and analyzing things and thinking through hours and how things would work out. I was wondering, okay, how do I want to make things of my life? How can I create more options for the future? Even as a person who is thinking of going into graduate school. So I read a bunch about personal finance. I got to learn about how wealth is created. Went to a lot of entrepreneurship events, went to many things about community leaders and engagement. So, one thing that I’ve realized there is that a lot of times, the smartest people, they’re not making the most money. And yet at the same time, some people who have been making a lot of money, they’re not the smartest people.

04:26 Sharena: So then, it seems like this different dimension to a lifestyle, and to the way that a person operates and carries themselves. So I had this experience as an undergrad, making these financial models in Excel spreadsheets, just for fun at first. I wanted to be able to predict the future by mathing stuff up. So I got to do that some more as a post-bacc, seeing, okay, if compound interest works in this way, and I can reasonably expect this amount, if things perform averagely, then this is how my future will turn out if I save an extra $5 a day, for instance. And seeing how little tweaks could make a big difference.

05:12 Emily: So, I love that you, you know, frame this around, like you wanting to understand how wealth was created, and I totally understand why you went down this entrepreneurial route after investigating that question. So I really want to hear how these journeys of like the PhD and entrepreneurship come together later on. I also noticed in your phrasing just there, are you a Millennial Revolution fan?

05:33 Sharena: Yes.

05:34 Emily: Okay. Yes. So for those not familiar, they have this catch phrase that’s like math stuff, I’m substituting a word, math stuff up. So, they have a very sort of unconventional approach, right? They don’t accept conventional wisdom. They reanalyze everything. Have you adopted that as well?

05:53 Sharena: Yeah. There are many things in the financial independence retire early community that I think of not as a person who necessarily wants to retire early, because if I did retire, then I would just be making more technology anyway, because this is fun for me. But as a person who wants to be doing what I’m doing because I want to do it. So that, okay, whatever job I’m in, I will be bringing my all to it because it is my choice. And wouldn’t it be great if everyone just kind of lived that way, where they’re going to work because they want to be there and they could be doing a zillion other things at that time, but it’s their choice to be working with these particular people in this particular company?

Money Mindset Growth in Grad School

06:45 Emily: I love how you phrase that. And that is such an ideal to be working toward, and certainly one that’s espoused by the financial independence community. So tell me, also, you know, we talked about your financial mindset at the start of your post-bacc. So how did that change over the course of graduate school, or hasn’t?

07:03 Sharena: It has sort of changed, to some extent. Alright. As a graduate student, I have lived in a Buddhist temple for 22 months. And during that time, I got the sense of alright, what does it really take to be happy? Because a lot of times people, they think, “Oh, if I have X amount of money up to a certain point, then I will be happier.” But if you think about it, some monastics are the happiest people in the world, despite having taken a vow of poverty. Alright. If that’s the case, then what if I just leveraged that idea where I could find joys in all kinds of things that don’t actually take money and then save a lot and it compounds over time, so that I’m just doing exactly what I want to do?

08:00 Emily: Yes. Amazing, amazing insight to receive, especially I would say, you know, early on in life to have that, because that’s something that a lot of people never come to, or it takes decades and decades of chasing after the wrong stuff to find happiness before they finally get around to the insight that you have. So that’s incredible. So you told me, when you volunteered for this interview that you saved at least 50% of your grad student stipend, on average. What? How?

Saving ~50% of Student Stipend

08:32 Sharena: I think it’s 53% at this point, and the way that I did that was, alright at the beginning, I was reading these personal finance books and doing these financial model things and thinking, okay, there are very small things that make a very large difference. So for example, I could have lived closer to my laboratory then I actually lived, and it would have cost more, but I could live slightly further. Let’s say that I need to walk an extra three minutes a day or something like that. Well, in that case, I could get a little bit of extra exercise just built into my lifestyle, but also I’m saving money by living a little bit further away. So things like that. Well, there’s the question of what do you value, and is the way that you’re spending your money reflecting those values? I have chosen to invest quite a bit in the future because that’s what I wanted to do.

09:40 Emily: I totally concur with what you’re saying. And I think that once you identify what you value, in your case, investing for the future, it makes you excited to be able to put money towards that. And it doesn’t seem like such a big sacrifice to be cutting back on your spending or choosing not to spend in some other areas of a budget. But I love the philosophical point of view, but I want to get like a little bit more practical. So for example, can we start with, do you mind sharing what your stipend was throughout graduate school?

10:08 Sharena: In my first year, the stipend was $29.6K and that eventually rose to $33K at the end.

10:19 Emily: So I think of that as like a very decent stipend. Nothing out of this world, but certainly in Ann Arbor, sort of a moderate cost of living city. It’s a decent amount of money to make, but still being able to invest and save half of that is kind of a big accomplishment. So you mentioned, you know, you were paying for housing, right, but you just chose strategically. So you were paying a little bit less for housing maybe than some of your other options. Let’s go through just like the big expenses for average Americans. So we touched on housing. What about transportation?

Biking and Cutting Food Costs

10:51 Sharena: I decided that when I was moving out to Michigan, that I wanted to have a simple life or at least simple in terms of material possessions. So my first year when I was here, as a post-bacc, I didn’t have a bed frame, for instance. I just had a mattress on the floor because I didn’t know exactly where I would be for grad school. And when it came to transportation, I just rode a bicycle around. I’ve lost a lot of weight as a grad student and also was able to get from place to place. People ask, “Oh, Michigan has snow. How do you deal with that?” The answer is, “I bike anyway, the roads are cleared. Salt happens. I just bike.”

11:36 Emily: I’m glad you headed off that question. Okay. So no car, cycling lifestyle. What about food? Do you have any particular kind of diet that you follow that happens to be low cost? Or what are your strategies around there?

11:49 Sharena: If you think about it, a lot of places in world where there aren’t that many health issues like cancer and diabetes, they have this really simple diet of, they just pretty much eat rice and vegetables and they don’t have that much meat to them or anything like that because that’s what is available to them. So then I’ve pretty much been eating like a peasant and being just happy with that. Learned to make a really good stir fry, learned to make really good lemon garlic pasta.

Investment Strategy

12:25 Emily: Yeah. So I think we can clearly see from those three big categories that you just sort of slotted yourself on the low-cost end of the spectrum that you could spend in each of those areas. So you mentioned this 50% savings rate, investing rate. What were you investing in? Was it like the stuff I talk about all the time, like index funds and Roth IRAs, or are you doing that plus other stuff? Let us know what your investment strategy is.

12:48 Sharena: At first, I just invested in some stocks from companies that I liked and thought had good leadership to them. So for example, Costco notoriously treats their employees well, and I liked that. So I invested in them. And the Home Depot, well, it seems to be quite a good company, too. So I invested in some individual stocks at first, and then learned that there was this thing called index investing and then switched mostly to that. I also own some real estate investment trusts and some worthy bonds and a tiniest amount of crypto. I just bought $20 worth of Bitcoin for fun, and then laughed as it went up and down and up and down.

13:38 Emily: Yeah. So I like that. So like bulk of your investments are tried and true index funds, hands-off approach, but you have these few other holdings that you’ve, you know, intentionally selected that are sometimes interesting to track. Okay, well, that’s awesome for your investment strategy.

Commercial

13:57 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Our next live discussion and Q&A call is on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to PFforPhDs.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

Living the “Good Life”

15:09 Emily: You also told me when you volunteered that you have been focused on living the good life on, as we were just saying, less than 50% of your stipend. What does it mean to you to live the good life and how have you been doing that during grad school?

15:24 Sharena: I think that the good life, it is a life that I am doing fulfilling things in that I’m growing in and that I feel connected with other people in. So part of this is, alright. What does it mean to live life to the fullest? I think that it’s investments, not only in terms of money, but also investments in other things that compound interest such as health, and friends and family, and making connections. But also there’s the shenanigans. And that’s a lot of fun, too. I went to Puerto Rico with nothing but a backpack this one time, because people were telling me you need a vacation. I was working in lab on Thanksgiving this one time and thought, well, I have to see the world. I’ve never been out of the country before. So I’m going to book a trip to Rome. So that’s exactly what I did. And then eventually I went to Rome.

16:29 Sharena: But also, when it comes to the good life, there is work as a big part of it. I think a lot of us, a lot of our identity is in what we do for work. I was very lucky to be in a laboratory that was just starting up. So I could be at the forefront of bringing new processes to life. And I just loved that, even though it may have been frustrating to some people who just want to move on with their lives. And they want to get into a place where everything is already set up for them. But working with machines, that was a big part of it, too. I just love machines and the ways that they work and how animals and machines could create systems.

17:22 Emily: I think that those elements that you identified of a good life are ones that are probably to some degree shared by just about everybody. But I definitely encourage the listener, and I need to do this as well, just to periodically, like, think about what brings you joy, what brings you satisfaction, and then do that next step of connecting, “Well, how do these things that I want to pursue in my life, that I want to have in my life, how does having money or spending money help me fulfill those? Or are there ways to fulfill these without spending a lot of money?” Some of the things you mentioned are, you know, such intangibles like connections with friends and family, like sometimes money can help that, but it definitely isn’t required to do so. So I think all of these things are, you know, achievable at whatever level of income that you’re at. You just have to find a way to fit it in with your lifestyle at that time, which you clearly have done.

Entrepreneurship Journey

18:13 Emily: So let’s talk next about your entrepreneurship experience. You know, there’s been a theme of that already through this interview of finding fulfilling work and, “Hey, even if you had infinite choices because of your finances, you know, because you’re financially independent, you would still choose to work in some capacity.” Tell us, you know, how you got involved with these like five companies that you mentioned earlier and just what’s your entrepreneurship journey been during grad school?

18:35 Sharena: I received a message out of the blue on LinkedIn this one time from the founder of a computer vision company for pedestrian behavior prediction. He wanted to meet up with me. He was in Ann Arbor. I was in an Ann Arbor. So we met up and we talked. And he showed me what he currently had in terms of the pedestrian behavior software. On the spot, I came up with several ways that it could be improved. And to me it just made a lot of sense. So then he offered me the opportunity to be his co-founder. And from then on, we continued co-founding this company and building it up more and more and more. We have been a fantastic team, where he goes out and he gives a lot of pitches and manages a lot of the day-to-day stuff while I have been a grad student who has had to mostly work on lab things. But this worked out because a lot of the things that I did were about ideation and about intellectual property and things that were not bound to a certain time of the day.

20:00 Emily: So that’s one of the companies that you co-founded, then. Can you just tell us briefly, maybe a couple other examples of how you got involved with some of these other companies, especially for someone who’s thinking, wow, I’d love to get involved with entrepreneurship as a grad student, how that happened?

20:14 Sharena: The second company that I co-founded, that was a vertical spinoff for devops and for freelancers. So, the second company came out of the first company. As for the rest of them, the first company that I started advising, that actually came about because I saw that they had a product, I signed up to be a tester for it, and I wrote in the comments box, “Would be interested in helping the founders.” We had a wonderful conversation, and I became their advisor. Then, I started talking with people on the Clubhouse App, eventually, about technology. Got into lots and lots of conversations, which eventually evolved into Zoom conversations, which eventually, at the end of those conversations, often led to offers of, “Wait, I’m starting a company soon. Would you be interested in working with us on some sort of development.” Usually a development, of something between a machine and a human in the loop, which is exactly what I love. So then I said yes to them.

Funding Structure in Grad School

21:28 Emily: So I would just very broadly sum that up as like networking, and just like being open to conversations, offering help. I mean, it sounds like you offered help initially in at least two of these scenarios without yet any expectation of a return, but just putting value out there and some good things came back from it. So I understand that you were not able to be paid by any of these companies because of something about your funding structure. Would you tell us a little bit more about that?

21:59 Sharena: Yeah. My graduate program does not allow anyone to receive money or equity in exchange for work for a company outside of the university while they’re still a student. So there’s the question of, okay, given that this is the case, then how do I set things up so that things will work out. And the answer is, work with legal documentation, and just create a vesting structure so that right after you graduate, then that’s when a cliff happens and then you will receive your funding, your equity, your compensation, at that point.

22:40 Emily: I mean this as a complete compliment, but that seems like such a loophole, right? Because like you’re clearly putting in the time, the work, adding your expertise during the time of your graduate program. In your case, you still finished, it’s all good, right? Like it didn’t detract from that PhD journey. But you just arranged for the payment to happen later. And I give this to you as a compliment because I think it’s a great creative solution to this problem in case anybody else is running into it, but also want to voice that I completely disagree with your program. My basic philosophy around this is like, if you’re doing well in your program and you’re advancing and you’re doing the work that needs to be done, and your advisor’s happy with you, the university should keep its nose out of the rest of your business. In terms of whether you’re earning money or not, or equity or not, or whatever you want to do with the rest of your time should be yours. That’s my position. Do you know if this has any motivation in terms of like the university can then claim ownership over like the company? Is that the reason why they have that kind of verbiage?

Consider Grad Programs that Encourage Direct Experiences

23:39 Sharena: I think that they have it because of the way that academia used to work and how academics or people who are in PhD programs used to be thought of. It used to be thought of that a person has to just work, work, work on their thesis, and that that is enough. But if you actually want to make it as an entrepreneur, how do you do that without having actual experience? My experience makes me very rare. There aren’t very many PhDs who are just graduating from their program with this much experience, as an entrepreneur. A person can take classes. I was encouraged to take classes when I said that I wanted to be an entrepreneur. But no, they didn’t want me to actually do anything in a company. But I wanted to be an entrepreneur, partly because I wanted to do change the world in a positive way to promote road safety, for instance, with my pedestrian behavior prediction company.

24:47 Emily: Yeah. I am so glad that you shared this experience with us because I think it’s really instructive. Like if anybody else like you, and I’m not criticizing you by saying this, but if anybody else like you knows that they’re quite interested in pursuing entrepreneurship during the graduate program, once you’re going around and interviewing and talking to various advisors or whatever, like that’s something to bring up. Does your program have a prohibition on me starting a company or me having equity in a company that I advise during the course of this program. And, you know, maybe use that to help you make a decision about where you should end up in terms of a graduate program. I am a little bit surprised to hear about that from Michigan.

What’s Next for You?

25:23 Emily: Let’s talk about what’s next, then. You just said that you’re a unique kind of PhD with this sort of experience. What is the next step in your career, having just defended?

25:33 Sharena: Given that I have positions in five different companies, I think that I need to create a portfolio that I will call Yellow Pill Ventures. There’s this narrative sometimes that you can either make a profit or you can make a positive difference in the world. But I think that the two can really come together, and that can be by premise of my portfolio. Aside from Yellow Pill Ventures, I will also be pursuing a career in big tech. And the reason why big tech is because they already have the infrastructures place to bring ideas to life quickly. It’s not like we have to wait to hire software developers, for instance, but that they are already within the company. They’re ready to receive work. So between the two, I think of it as Nassim Nicholas Taleb’s Barbell Strategy of you put 80 to 90% of your time into something that’s completely stable, and you put 10 to 20% of your time into moonshot things, but that there’s not very much in the middle in terms of risk. That way, if the moonshots just do not pan out, then you are perfectly fine. If your perfectly fine thing, well, it’s not enough for you because you still have ideas that just are not relevant to your so-called real job. Then, well, they’re still manifested in the world with this possibility of actually taking off.

27:11 Emily: I love that idea. I love that you shared that analogy, and I think it pairs so well with FIRE, right? You have your job, like you had your stipend, you know, during graduate school. You’re doing all the great things to put yourself on the track for financial independence. And at the same time, you’re taking, well maybe not taking risks, but you have those possibilities of moonshots, like you were just saying. So I love that approach. Where can people find you in case they’re thinking, “Oh gosh, Sharena would be perfect for my company”?

27:41 Sharena: You can find me on LinkedIn. I am Sharena Rice. S H A R E N A and then space, R I C E. And I am @SharenaRice on Twitter as well. And on Clubhouse.

27:56 Emily: Absolutely. Perfect. I will note that we’re recording this in August, 2021. So possibly by the time it’s come out, someone might go to your LinkedIn profile and find that you’re already on to your next big job, your next big position. But in case you are still looking, they should check you out.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

28:10 Emily: Okay. Well, let’s conclude with the question that I ask of all of my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

28:19 Sharena: The answer to that is just start. A person does not need to know everything. They don’t really need to know, “Okay. What are absolutely all of the investment options? What is the exact risk of everything.” But rather, “Okay, what is something that’s reasonable, that I feel comfortable with?” That’s a good place to start. There’s a narrative in academia, it seems, that grad students, they shouldn’t care about money. Or that that’s kind of a problem for their future self to think about rather than their current self. But habits, they compound over time. Mindsets, they compound over time and spread. So, it’s good to just start where you are and to just learn where you can. And actually start conversations with the people in your life who may know something or not know anything about finances, just to make it more of a conversation rather than something that people are just hushed about.

29:36 Emily: I love that advice. I love how we saw in this part of your story that you shared today, we saw that advice reflected. And this has been a really thought-provoking interview for me. So thank you so much, Sharena, for joining me.

29:48 Sharena: Thank you so much, Emily!

Outtro

29:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This JD/PhD Overcame Money Terror and Avoidance

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Michelle Thompson, who has had multiple careers as a lawyer, an adjunct, and now a coach and business owner. Michelle observed her mother’s terror and her father’s avoidance regarding money and combined the two in her own adulthood. Emily and Michelle discuss the financial struggle of earning a low stipend as a graduate student in NYC and taking on student debt for summer research and daycare/preschool. It wasn’t until Michelle started her business that she proactively changed her relationship with money through a book and coaching. Michelle speaks to the merits of facing the dark side of your relationship with money; she is now in the best financial shape of her life.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

money mindset PhD

Teaser

00:00 Michelle: Whatever bedevils you about money, you have to look at because whatever bedevils you will sabotage your relationship with money. Take time to do that work and I promise you whatever is screwing with you with money will screw with you about actually getting the doctorate done.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts.

00:32 Emily: This is Season 9, Episode 6, and today my guest is Dr. Michelle Thompson, who has had multiple careers as a lawyer, an adjunct, and now a coach and business owner. Michelle observed her mother’s terror and her father’s avoidance regarding money and combined the two in her own adulthood. Michelle and I discuss the financial struggle of earning a low stipend as a graduate student in New York City and taking on student debt for summer research and daycare and preschool. It wasn’t until Michelle started her business that she proactively changed her relationship with money through a book and coaching. Michelle speaks to the merits of facing the dark side of your relationship with money; she is now in the best financial shape of her life. Quick content warning. There is a brief mention of suicidal ideation in the interview.

01:24 Emily: It’s the end of July, and I know that taxes are probably the furthest thing from your mind at the moment. However, I do have a special request for every one of you who is going to be on fellowship in the upcoming academic year, whether as a new fellow or continuing fellow. If your university does not offer automatic income tax withholding on non-W-2 fellowship income: Would you please request that my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients, be purchased on behalf of those who want to take it? You could make this request of your graduate school, postdoc office, department, graduate student association, etc.

01:57 Emily: The workshop assists graduate student and postdoc fellowship recipients who are not having income tax withheld from their stipends or salaries figure out whether they are required to pay estimated tax and if so how much and when. The workshop consists of numerous short videos, a spreadsheet, and a live Q&A call just prior to the next quarterly deadline. You can find more details at PF for PhDs dot com slash q e tax. That’s q for quarterly e for estimated T A X.

02:28 Emily: I’ve been enrolling individuals in this workshop for several years, and in the last year have branched out to bulk purchases for university offices and groups. Purchasing this workshop on behalf of students and postdocs is incredibly helpful because it can reach people who aren’t even clued in about the possibility of having to pay quarterly estimated tax or who are unable to pay for the workshop.

02:51 Emily: I’m making this request now because the next quarterly deadline is September 15, 2021, and the office or group you approach may need some time to arrange the purchase. If they are interested, they can get in touch with me at emily at PF for PhDs dot com. The start of the academic year is the perfect time to learn about estimated tax because you can start saving for your eventual payment from your very first fellowship paycheck.

03:18 Emily: Thank you for helping me spread the word about this workshop and prevent financial hardship next tax season!

Book Giveaway

03:31 Emily: Now onto the book giveaway contest!

03:36 Emily: In July 2021 I’m giving away one copy of Get Good with Money: Ten Simple Steps to Becoming Financially Whole by Tiffany ‘The Budgetnista’ Aliche, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community Book Club selection for September 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during July will have a chance to win a copy of this book.

03:56 Emily: Not only will Get Good with Money be our Book Club selection for September, but we will also devote our monthly Challenge to assessing and working through the ten aspects of financial wholeness as individuals.

04:09 Emily: If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate AND REVIEW this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at emily at PFforPhDs dot com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of July from all the entries. You can find full instructions at PFforPhDs.com/podcast.

04:31 Emily: Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Michelle Thompson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:41 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Michelle Thompson. She’s had quite a career. She is a JD and a PhD, actually. She’s now self-employed, although she’s had many other jobs in the meantime, and what we’re going to talk through today is kind of her life in stages and also what she’s learned at each stage, the kind of money mindset that she developed at each stage. She has some very interesting things to say to us about academia. I’m really looking forward to this conversation. Michelle, thank you so much for joining me and would you please introduce yourself to the audience a little bit further?

05:14 Michelle: Absolutely! It’s my pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. I am the founder of a boutique coaching firm called Michelle Dionne Thompson Coaching and Consulting. I work with clients to marry their purpose with their expertise in communities. In addition to that, I do teach part time. I love to teach. I love being with college students. I teach in the black studies department at City College of New York. And I am currently a publishing scholar as well. I’m turning my dissertation into a monograph. It’s called Resistant Vision: The post-emancipation realities of Jamaican’s Accompong Maroons from 1842 to 1901. Because I’m a glutton for punishment, my first career rodeo was as a lawyer. I was a member of the inaugural class of what is now Equal Justice Works fellows. And I used that fellowship to deliver legal services to people living with AIDS in Anacostia, in Washington, DC. And after that, I negotiated collective bargaining agreements with service employees international union district 1199, EDC in Baltimore, Maryland, and Washington DC.

06:20 Emily: Wow. I wish that we were going to talk more about your career specifically today. It sounds fascinating. But where you are going to focus on the finances through a few of those stages.

Money Mindset Developed in Early Childhood

06:30 Emily: Let’s start where all good therapy sessions do in your childhood. What money mindsets did you observe in your parents and also develop during your childhood?

06:43 Michelle: My parents were raised poor people from Jamaica and my mom immigrated from Jamaica to England to become a nurse. It was her goal in life and it probably opened up more than she ever thought. She was shrewd about money, but she was absolutely terrified about handling money. My mom died of dementia and at the one of the few last times that she could really comprehend her money, this I use lightly because dementia, her money situation, she actually had an estate worth over a million dollars, way more than she ever, ever thought she would ever, ever have in her natural life.

07:38 Michelle: But to get there, she was shrewd. She knew how to save. For a girl who didn’t have much food, she was blown away with how much food she could acquire with so little money in the United States. And every single time she got paid, she was absolutely terrified — “I have to pay the bills!” She’d take out her checkbook. She would balance her checkbook. She would make sure all of the transactions were recorded in the check register. She was flawless about it, but she was absolutely terrified every single time it happened. She worked at University of Chicago, hospitals and clinics for many, many years, and that allowed her to send my sister and I to those schools for many years, because we got half off of the tuition. Every single time the tuition bill came, she would be like, “Oh my gosh, I have to pay the tuition!” She would work overtime. It’s a hard life in some ways. She would have to work overtime for a few shifts and the money was there. If you think about it in the more woo-woo world, she could manifest money. That wasn’t the problem, but the energy of fear, always behind that. And I think that actually very much shaped my relationship with money as a young person and actually shaped this as a new thought. It shaped an attitude of avoidance of money.

09:10 Emily: Yeah. Wow. Thank you so much for that. That really, it passed down to you. It rubbed off on you in a way that you were treating money, thinking about money similarly. It wasn’t like you went the opposite direction. You were sort of more a little bit in line with what your mom was thinking.

09:25 Michelle: Well, the fear was totally intact. I think as an adult, that’s what I grappled with the fear of not having money. But instead of being on top of it, I would avoid handling it. And my dad apparently was more of the avoidance end of things. My mom would get mad because they would get the mail and he would just set them aside. She’s like, you have to open that. She would move towards it, he would move away from it. I took his move away from it and the fear.

09:56 Emily: I see, I see. Actually I’m remembering there are these there’s this framework, I’ve actually talked about it on the podcast before — we’ll link the episode in the show notes — but there’s a framework around it’s called money scripts. There’s four personality types around money and I remember one of them is money vigilance. So sort of what your mom was doing, being really on top of it. And then another one is money avoidance.

10:18 Michelle: I didn’t know these scripts, but here we go.

10:21 Emily: You’re falling very neatly into those boxes sound like, but in both cases it’s motivated by fear, which is very interesting.

10:26 Michelle: Absolutely, absolutely.

10:27 Emily: Did that actually, this fear part of it, did that play into your first career choice as a lawyer? Was that like a stable thing for you financially or that you perceived it would be?

10:38 Michelle: I remember being 12 and writing down in a journal, I want to be a lawyer. And I think I wanted to be a lawyer because I knew it was a way to make sure I earned the money I needed and not have to worry about it. Earned enough money so I could avoid it, now that I think about it. Right. I do think that because I was doing public interest work, I wasn’t making that kind of money. It didn’t manifest that way, but I think that was part of the intentionality behind becoming a lawyer.

11:11 Emily: Yeah and that’s part of the public perception of lawyers, maybe, especially at that time. I think now we have maybe a better understanding, post-recession, what law careers are, but before then it’s like, oh, you know, doctor, lawyer engineer, like great salary.

Money Mindset During Law School

11:27 Emily: Let’s talk about your money mindset, money situation during law school and then as you were working as a lawyer.

11:33 Michelle: With my fellowship came up a component that was loan forgiveness, but it wasn’t mashed in the same check. They would give me two separate payments, so I would get my paycheck and then I would get the loan forgiveness. And it was the first time I’d been held that accountable for money, so every single time I got that check — again, everything was about fear — I couldn’t figure out how to save money really during that time. I think if I had the tools I have now, then I probably could have, but I couldn’t actually figure it out at the time. I was really scared of handling checking accounts. There was all of this stuff. I had actually lost a checking account. And so I was unable to open one. I can have a savings account. I was paying everything cash and I was holding onto things through a savings account or cash. My whole money systems were really very, very janky and it was spending money to pay bills. I was good about making sure I paid the rent, generally about paying my student loans, paying the utilities, but again, every single pay period, I was absolutely terrified of doing it.

12:51 Michelle: By the time I got to working at the union, it was enough time that I could reopen a checking account. And I needed a car. That was the first like huge purchase I had to make. And, oh my gosh! I did research. I’m like, okay, this is the car I want. What really, really scared me was car insurance. I started to do it and I was in my early thirties and I was like, I can’t afford to have a car. And I just stopped the process. Avoidance. I just stopped the process. I can’t do this. When I worked for a couple more months, I’m like, okay, this clearly is not going to work. I need a car. And so it was like, okay, you have to look into other insurance companies. Then I finally found All State. I’ll say it actually gave me a rate that I was like, “okay, that I can do.” But I was absolutely terrified to actually make that purchase. I was terrified to do the insurance. I would shake is I handed them the check to actually do the down payment on the car. Complete the fear that my parents brought to handling money.

14:02 Emily: So that terror was specifically that you could not actually afford the car, that you would not be able to make the payments on the loan and the payments on the insurance?

14:12 Michelle: I think going into it, that was certainly the fear. Although, clearly I had budgeted and saw, “oh, I could do this,” but I was scared about it anyway, the way that my mom was scared about tuition.

14:28 Emily: Yeah. And I guess her solution was working more with that also a solution for you, or was earning more through overtime not a possibility?

14:37 Michelle: That wasn’t a possibility but I budgeted it. I could see the budget and how it would work. I don’t think, I believed the budget, which is funny, right? But I don’t think I believed the budget. And then shortly after that, there was an opportunity. I was thinking about buying a piece of real estate and I could do it because my employer had a 401k set aside for me that I could actually use to apply to a first-time home purchase. I saw cute place. I was like, oh, wow, this would be good. Actually, it wasn’t that expensive, especially given Washington DC. I was too scared to do it. I’m like, I can’t afford this responsibility. Oh my gosh, I’d have to tear up the floors. You know what I mean? The whole, “I can’t afford it. I can’t do it. I can’t afford it. I can’t do it.” That was the recording, if you will. That was the greatest hits that I played and I backed out of it until later.

Money Mindset During the PhD

15:31 Emily: Wow. Yeah. Let’s talk about you moving towards your PhD then. Maybe a little bit about why you did that.

15:39 Michelle: Sure. So a couple of things. On my mother’s side, we’re the descendants of a community of runaway slaves called Maroons. And those were some of the earliest historical narratives I heard. I had met my partner, my current partner in Washington, DC, when I was practicing law, who was a full professor at a major public institution in the Midwest and had gotten an offer to come to a school in New York city. And she said, you could get a doctorate. And I was like, what? Because I assumed that that process was only open to people who like went from undergrad and they got like A’s and whatever. She’s like, “no, no, no, you could totally do it.” And that’s what inspired me to do it. But also having a partner who earned a lot more than I did actually provided me with a level of financial security that actually made this easier. Like it made it look like a possibility. I didn’t have to be in New York city, paying York rents, trying to cobble a life together for myself. There’s a different kind of security for the first time in my life. And as a feminist, it’s like really, really hard for me to say that, but to be real about my money story, actually being partnered did provide a level of financial security that I had never experienced before.

17:02 Emily: Yeah. I mean, of course your finances naturally always change in some degree when you partner up, but I’m wondering, were you still feeling terror? Were you still feeling avoidance? Did you ask your partner to take over not only some of the financial, like literal paying for things, but also maybe the management? How did that work out?

17:25 Michelle: I did the management, she did the paying. We actually had split it up so we would pay for things according to percentage. Like if we put our income together, if we added it all up together, my income would come to a percentage of her income, so I was responsible for that percentage of what we were doing in the household. And that’s how we set it up. I found that I was a lot less scared to handle money with a partner. There’s something about being on your own and handling it that was far more terrifying to me than doing it with somebody else.

18:01 Emily: Yeah, I think along those lines of like your relationship with money, I think does change a bit when you, when you are partnered. I really enjoyed the, um, having like sort of the team aspect, like we are working together towards these goals and I had someone to bounce ideas off of and sort of talk over decisions. And when you’re the only one responsible for your money, it’s all on you. Because it is such a taboo topic, most people don’t have an accountability partner, they talk to, or like a friend that they’re comfortable talking to about this. It’s really like you just finally have someone who you can really share and be open about these things.

18:34 Michelle: I wouldn’t go that crazy with it. I don’t feel like we ever did that. But at least I knew that, I mean, for me, it was important to know that I wasn’t going to be homeless and that I would be able to eat, which is very tight again, it’s very tied to my parents own fears because they were raised poor. So I knew that part would be covered.

18:57 Emily: And this is specifically during your PhD program, right? Salary as a lawyer, you’re doing okay. But as a PhD student, it’s a very different situation. Can you talk about what your stipend was? And you mentioned you were living in New York, can you tell us about what the finances on your side of things were?

19:13 Michelle: Sure. I was earning, I want to say $20,000 a year and nothing over the summer.

19:19 Emily: And what year was that in?

19:23 Michelle: This was 2001. I started my doctorate in 2003. I did a master’s in 2001. Yeah, I think it was something like that. Then I gave birth to my son in 2004. So I actually borrowed because you can’t have a little, little one and write anything. Like you can’t, you can’t be doing the full-time childcare. The first year I worked, I didn’t really borrow. I was a teaching assistant and that actually worked for that year, but the following year I needed to do research in Jamaica. I actually think things worked out. There was a fellowship I got, um, that was part of New York university, so that worked out that year. But the following year, when we returned to the states, that’s when I needed him to be a preschool. It’s the years between when they’re three and five, when they’re — New York city now has public preschool, but there was very little of that at the time. I couldn’t afford in terms of getting my work done to have an hour and a half of childcare. That was useless. By the time you get to an hour and a half, you could write for 15 minutes and then you’re up and you have to get the child’s again. I actually borrowed a lot to make sure that he was in preschool. That’s what I assumed on my end during graduate school and I would also borrow to get through the summers because I never could get summer funding, which is, I think that’s a really hard part of being a doctoral student, summer funding. I never could get summer funding, so I borrowed, so I could go into the field in Jamaica. Although it was cheaper to live in Jamaica, I would borrow it to go there. And, I would borrow to do my research and I would borrow to do childcare so I could do my research.

21:30 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. This is bringing another element to the conversation, which is being the parent of a child who needs full-time attention, and how to balance that with doing your dissertation. I have talked to some people who try to work and do the childcare and trade off with their partners and such, and that’s often motivated by a philosophy around like what child-rearing should be and they try to make it work. I know it’s challenging, but it’s also on the other challenging —

21:58 Michelle: I found that the person who earns the most money will do the least childcare. That’s how it worked out in my relationship. And I’m not going to negotiate about whether I need the childcare, the childcare has to happen. So that was the deal with the devil I made. Fine.

22:17 Emily: Yeah. I have another episode that I don’t know if it’ll be published before or after this one, so this might be a preview of coming events for the listener, about another story of a parent who actually became a single parent at some point during graduate school and the same kind of thing of how much student debt had to be taken out to finance the daycare and so forth for the child. And it’s another huge layer of financial pressure that can happen for PhD students who parents during that time, or already were parents before starting graduate school.

22:46 Michelle: Exactly.

Commercial

22:49 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude!

Emily: This announcement is for prospective and first-year graduate students.

Emily: My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society, offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s 4-step Gradboss Method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, uplevel your productivity, and master time management.

Emily: I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course, titled “Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School.” It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances in each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school.

Emily: If this all sounds great to you, please register at theacademicsociety.com/emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join Grad School Prep if you’d like to go a step further. Again, that’s the academic society dot com slash e m i l y for my affiliate link for the course.

Emily: Now back to our interview.

Financial Stress during the PhD

24:16 Emily: So what does it do to a developing scholar to be under financial stress, like $20K per year in New York City, kind of financial stress?

24:26 Michelle: You know, again like this is where my spouse or partner at the time really provided. I can’t imagine what it’s like having to come up with rent in New York City on $20,000 a year. I just can’t. Actually, if I had to do that, I think I definitely would’ve practiced law part-time. I would’ve by hook or crook figured out how to do it and it would have taken me a lot more time to finish my doctorate. It’s just because they’re two huge things. I didn’t have to do that. My partner, we were in university housing, so we were paying far less rent. It was actually embarrassing. I had colleagues who lived in my building who were doctoral students. They paid more for rent than we did. We had a lot more space in our apartment. That was actually something that was in place. For me, you house me, you feed me, I’m good. I could cover the food, the housing was covered and it was okay for me.

Michelle: What was stressful was how am I going to fund the summers? It was always like, I guess I’m going to borrow. That was what was hard for me. For me, I just have to know there’s a pot of money I can go to, to make it work. I actually did a good job of saying, I have this much for the summer, this is how I’m going to handle that. Or, okay, good. This is the, this is the pot of money for childcare. Got it. I think at another point in my life, because I felt less secure, I might’ve dipped into that for other things and then would always be scrambling to make it up. That actually didn’t happen. Childcare always got paid. I could always make my summer bills. I could always pay for the flights. That actually worked out. And so I think in some ways I wasn’t as pressed, but I was borrowing out of my ears to actually make it happen.

26:19 Emily: And did financing your PhD feel different than financing your JD?

26:24 Michelle: No. Because I borrowed to get my JD. But for the JD, I went to a state school and they actually gave me, I wasn’t an Iowa resident, but they actually gave me in-state tuition, so it was so little money. It was ridiculous.

26:40 Emily: I guess I’m just thinking about like the norms in fields, like it’s normal to borrow for your JD. It’s fantastic if you get a discount or get a scholarship or whatever. For the PhD, it’s much more, well, it’s kind of field dependent, whether or not it’s normal to borrow. And I’m sure it’s city dependent. I mean, in places like New York, it’s gonna be more likely.

27:00 Michelle: I find in the humanities it also depends on where your advisor’s willing to go to bat for you. And my advisor, wasn’t super thrilled to go to bat for me. If they’re willing to go to bat for you, they’ll find money, they’ll help you find money, but that wasn’t the case for me. And I’m determined. I’m like, “oh, I’m here, I’m gonna finish this, I see this through to its completion.” For me, it’s just raw determination that has me doing things. I’ll just do what it takes.

Finances as Gatekeeper for Academia

27:42 Emily: How do finances serve as a gatekeeper for academia? I mean, you’re obviously tenacious, but maybe to someone else, would it have been more of an impediment or even maybe for you at a different time of life, if you weren’t partnered, like you said, you may have been doing it part time. What’s the gatekeeping aspect of this?

27:59 Michelle: There’s so many things. If you don’t come from a family who has an academic background in this particular way. Okay, it’s great. Like it’s a fully funded program, they’re covering your tuition and they’ve given you a stipend. That’s what I received. And that is great, I’m not knocking that. And there are things that you don’t know about. The cost of research is high. There’s a reason why faculty have research accounts. Just saying. If you have to travel to do any of your research and most of us have to travel to do our research, even if it’s domestic or international, you don’t have a handle on…I think what really turns the screws on people, if you’re not clear about it, is that you really have to pay to do the research to make this happen. And that’s where the the rubber hits the road. We act like we don’t have to talk about people having families in academia, but people have families in academia and you can’t raise a child full-time and do any meaningful research and write up that research. You can’t square, you can’t square the circle. It doesn’t work.

29:33 Emily: Yeah, academia might be flexible, but that doesn’t mean it’s not hours and hours and hours of work that have to be done with a degree of concentration.

29:41 Michelle: Exactly. If you’re going to sleep at any rate. I’m a fan of sleep. I think that’s the gatekeeping part of it. If you’re male and you’re married to a female, it’s expected that that spouse is going to pick that up for you. It’s expected that you’re doing the thing that’s going to make you the breadwinner of the family. That’s not expected the other way around. Programs don’t feel any obligation to make that happen for you. And then again, who’s going to bat for you to actually find funding for summers, etc. That’s a whole other whole other.

30:15 Emily: Yeah, and I think we’ve seen this thrown into super sharp relief during COVID. It’s a recession that’s largely women are losing or leaving their jobs at much higher rates than men are. Lot of that has to do with caregiving responsibility.

30:29 Michelle: Exactly. Women are publishing substantially less during COVID. For academic women it’s just dropped precipitously because Junior’s on zoom over here.

30:39 Emily: Yeah. These stresses have been there for many, many decades, but they’re much more obvious in the current crisis and things have sped up and become much more acute right now.

Finances and Money Mindset Post-PhD

30:50 Emily: Let’s talk about your story a little bit more. Once you did finish the PhD, where did your career go after that and where did your relationship with your finances go after that?

30:58 Michelle: I finished and it was like number one, “Oh, I’m not, I’m not getting institutional support from New York University anymore.” I was an adjunct at three different schools. I live in Manhattan. I was commuting to New Jersey and I was commuting to Staten island, which can take just as long as commuting to New Jersey. I was working these jobs, exhausted and I couldn’t make my credit card bills. I put my loans on forbearance but I couldn’t make my credit card bills. All of that fear about money was popping up again. And actually got to a point where I was getting suicidal and I would look at my eight year old and I go, you can’t do that to him.

31:52 Michelle: I think if I give my mind a solution for a problem, I can focus on the solution and not the problem. I decided I’m not going to pay the credit card bills for now, which is actually probably a good decision. It wasn’t great for my credit history, but it was a good decision. I was like, okay, maybe I could do journalism. Turns out journalism is in the same free fall that academia is in, pro-tip. I had been part of this peer counseling organization for years, and I knew that I had skills of listening to people and helping them shift their lives. I was thinking, I wish I could make money doing that. I come to my computer and there’s an email that says giving away scholarships to learn how to become a coach and I was like, that would be, thank you. I applied for the scholarship and I got it and I hadn’t looked back, but it turns out, just because there’s a possibility of how you could like build something so that you can support yourself doesn’t mean that you don’t have all the same money dredge that you had. And actually it’s been being a business owner that has put in sharp relief that I cannot carry this abject terror about handling my money with me the rest of my life, because I’m going to be handling a business side of finances and my own personal finances.

33:14 Emily: Yeah, I hadn’t thought about that, but you really… being an employee is vastly different financially from being a business owner and I can see how that would really bleed over and affect your entire relationship with money and not just handling the business finances.

A Shift in Money Mindset

33:28 Michelle: Exactly, exactly. I noticed that once clients paid me, it would be this absolute fear. Like, “oh my gosh, they paid me.” I’m here to be paid by clients! I mean, I’m here to help people, I’m here to serve, but people pay me to serve them. That’s the arrangement. This is not, this is not an energetic moment here. I hired a coach in part to help me sort this out. There’s a book that I use to actually help me deal with this constant worry about finances and to actually look at the emotional bedrocks connected to me and my money story. I actually started to incorporate a series of tools to help me manage the money and it got me to a point where I could call the credit card company to go, “okay, look, I know I owe you money, what’s the arrangement we’re going to make? Money wasn’t doing things to me. I was starting to shape the narrative I wanted to about money.

34:37 Emily: Wow what a shift, what an incredible shift!

34:37 Michelle: That’s been a huge, huge shift.

34:42 Emily: I’m going to get that title from you after the interview and I’ll put it in the shownotes.

34:47 Michelle: That’s what it is, Overcoming Underearning by Barbara Stanny.

34:52 Emily: Yes! I have read a different one of her books, but yes, I’m familiar with that author.

34:55 Michelle: This is the foundational book that actually helped me turn things around with money.

35:03 Emily: Wow what a recommendation!

35:03 Michelle: Again, it was all of the overcome your money fears and earn what you deserve. That was what I needed to do. Amazing.

35:12 Emily: That you still have this at your fingertips. Literally did not have to get up out of your chair to get it.

35:16 Michelle: I know, it’s like right there. I’ve worked through it twice. And if I find I’m up against another something, I’m going to pull it back out again and I’m going to work the exercises again. This book has been absolutely foundational for me. Working with a coach about my business and part of why — my coach was Britt Bolnick with In Arms Coaching is so amazing is that she understands that to run a business, you have to tackle all of these inner demons that like show up and try to sabotage you, otherwise you can’t build a business, you can’t serve people. That’s really the bottom line — you can’t serve people if you’re afraid of the money.

35:57 Michelle: She brought in other people who helped you think about what is your personality with money? I’m an investor, apparently. Who knew? I got to assess that. This man ran a workshop that we did. It was like, oh, I could save. You know, it’s not a lot, but for the first time in my life, I actually have saved in a regular savings account, a little over a thousand dollars. It’s not much, but considering that I could not figure this out at all, it’s huge! I paid off a line of credit. I paid down, I finally had room on my credit card. If I needed to rent a car, I could do it. These things have changed. A friend of mine told me about You Need A Budget. Game changer. This is a work in progress, but it’s actually been a point where it’s like, oh, I need to set up regular times with my money and we need to have hot and heavy dates. It’s set up a set of habits that I don’t worry about having money.

37:06 Michelle: Last year my mother died. God bless her. She did enough work with her estate that there was actually, after actually her care for having dementia, there was an estate. Not the biggest estate in the world. I don’t need the biggest estate. It’s a modest estate. I already got some of that. I got the apartment in DC. I sold it some years ago and I got the profit from it and I just handed half of it to my partner because I was afraid of what I was going to do with the money. This time, I was like, hmm, excellent. I’m a member of business networking international. There was someone in my chapter who does financial advising. I was like, hi, I’m on the phone with you. I need you to help me handle this money. I didn’t blink. I wasn’t freaked out by it. I replaced my hardware. This is a very different…I don’t have to be an abject fear every single time I’m dealing with money. That it’s like, wow. That has been a big shift.

38:04 Emily: Yeah! This is an incredible, incredible shift. And especially because your initial relationship with your money, the avoidance and the fear and so forth was in place for decades. Starting your childhood, for decades in your adulthood as well, and this leveling up. Well, I don’t know if it’s up, but getting to the level of being a business owner forced you to totally work on this and really master it. I’m so glad to hear those examples. I think during our initial phone call, you mentioned You Need A Budget, but you said that you couldn’t have used it prior to this transformation. It’s a great tool, but you have to be ready to use the tool.

38:45 Michelle: If you’re terrified of looking at your money and I’m not saying I’ve conquered it. You don’t like, it shows up in different ways. But if I don’t understand that, oh right, I can be really scared when I handle my money, I would have just avoided using the tools. Like that’s great. And not use it. But now I’m like, okay, do you know you’re scared. Let’s just get into it. Let’s get into it and do it.

39:12 Emily: Yeah. Wow. What a fantastic shift!

Money Mindset as a Business Owner

39:13 Emily: Is there anything else that you’d like to tell us about your money mindset now, or your relationship with money as a business owner?

39:22 Michelle: I really firmly believe that…I’m a big follower of Carolyn L. Elliott who wrote the book, Existential Kink. One of my coach for coaches, her approach to coaching is about looking at shadow sides. It’s the very Yung-ian and approach both of them have very Yung-ian approaches to the world. And I really firmly believe that if you do not turn and face the shadow, if you will, the dark side of yourself, when it comes to money and actually just really bring that dark side to life. It’s not just about money. It’s about pretty much anything you’re doing about writing, about building your career — if you do not turn and face the places that might scare the bejesus out of you, whatever it is, you’re not going to get a handle on your money, on your love, your sex, whatever it is, your career options, anything that means anything to you, you’re not going to be able to handle it. You’ve got to be able to walk and spend time in those dark places, because once you actually really clear about what the peanut gallery is doing, you can actually go, okay, I understand that’s a peanut gallery. We’re going to do this.

40:41 Emily: I see. And I’m so glad that you mentioned the different tools that you use, the book, the coaching, and so forth, to get to this point, to be facing that aspect of your personality or that side of yourself. Thank you so much for sharing this story with us and I know, again, it’s not something we talk about a whole lot, and I’m sure there’s people in the audience. Well, I’m not sure. I don’t know if someone experiencing money avoidance will be listening to a podcast about money, but maybe someone knows someone and they can send this episode and say, you know, we grew up this way with money. You want to listen to what Michelle has to say about this, because maybe what she experienced can help you.

41:17 Michelle: I’ll say this. I know that I’ve listened to all sorts of resources about money before I actually did anything about it. So I know you money avoiders. You actually would like to not avoid money and you’ll acquire resources. The next step is to actually turn and use them.

41:33 Emily: Yeah. And I think for you, part of your money avoidance, and part of your solution to this was the book Overcoming Underearning. There might be a different book that’s appropriate for different people, depending on because that’s really like an entrepreneurial type. That’s for entrepreneurs.

41:48 Michelle: There’s Jen Cincero, You’re a Badass at Handling Money, which is funny, but also really concrete tools. You see, I’ve read them all. But that’s a really lovely starting point to actually manage money as well.

42:04 Emily: I’ve read that one too. It’s a lot about money mindset stuff, so it’s a wonderful one if you want to start learning about that and start to change your mental relationship with money.

Best Financial Advice for an Early Career PhD

42:15 Emily: Michelle, thank you so much for this interview and standard question that I ask all of my guests to wrap up is what financial advice do you have for an early career PhD? What’s your best financial advice? And that could be something that we touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely other.

42:33 Michelle: Number one, you may need to do the research necessary to find funding for those times where your academic institution isn’t going to fund you. And they may not be super supportive in doing it, but do it anyway. That’s number one. Number two, it’s never too early — All right, I have three pieces of lights. So that’s number one: do the research. Start in September, to look for money for the spring. I mean, for the summer.

43:06 Michelle: Number two, whatever bedevils you about money, you have to look at because whatever bedevils, you will sabotage your relationship with money in a time where you actually are going to need to budget and be really on top of your finances, because I assume I’m presuming that you’re single and you don’t have a lot of the fundamental support that you need. So take time to do that work and I promise you, whatever is screwing with you with money will screw with you about actually getting the doctorate done.

43:39 Michelle: And number three, once you start to clarify what the, what those devils are, find the tools to help you make it work. YNAB is, I think it’s $90 a year. It is worth every dime, as a way of actually managing what you have and sticking with it. Those would be my three pieces of advice.

44:05 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. I think that’s a wonderful quick summary of kind of the journey that we’ve gone through during the interview. Thank you again, Michelle. Thank you so much for this interview and for joining me.

44:13 Michelle: You’re welcome! Thank you for having me.

Outtro

44:20 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode!

Emily: pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved!

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Emily: See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps!

Emily: The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC.

Emily: Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.