grad school

This Postdoc Has a System for Debt Repayment That You Can Follow as Well

June 1, 2020 by Meryem Ok Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Suba Narasimhan, a postdoctoral fellow at Emory University. Suba and her husband each brought debt into their marriage, and once they both had full incomes, they decided to tackle it together. Suba presents a step-by-step plan for anyone at the start of a debt repayment journey. Emily and Suba discuss in detail how to handle credit card debt, including whether to pay credit cards off with student loans or 0% interest promotional credit cards. Suba doesn’t follow the debt snowball or debt avalanche methods exactly, but rather has mixed the two for a custom solution. Suba emphasizes the importance of being kind to yourself while repaying debt and adopting a nonjudgmental attitude toward your and your partner’s debt.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Suba: You have to think about this as part of your life. And if you have the ability to preplan and save some money, have a little bit of savings, and also just assume that maybe you’ll have to take on more loan debt. How much could you afford given whatever your loan burden is now?

Introduction

00:26 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode five, and today my guest is Dr. Suba Narasimhan, a postdoctoral fellow at Emory University. Despite maintaining a debt-free status until midway through her PhD, Suba eventually took on both student loans and credit card debt due to financial emergencies and adverse situations. When she started her postdoc position, Suba and her husband decided to tackle their debt head-on, even though it was very daunting and anxiety-producing. Suba presents a step-by-step plan for anyone who wants to eliminate their debt and shares her own decisions throughout. Listen through the episode to hear her encouraging words on maintaining a positive, nonjudgmental attitude during debt repayment. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Suba Narasimhan.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:23 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Suba Narasimhan. Suba will be telling us about her debt repayment journey, which I’m so excited to dive into that topic with her. So, Suba, say “Hi” to the audience, please.

01:35 Suba: Hi! Hi, Emily. Thank you for having me.

01:38 Emily: Thanks so much for volunteering to come on. I actually wanted to tell the audience how we met, which was a couple years ago. So, I gave a seminar at UCLA and Suba came up to me afterwards and she said, “I’m so interested in what you do. I kind of want to do what you do. Can we talk further about this?” And we did. We went and we had lunch, and we had this wonderful conversation. In fact, Suba is the one who encouraged me to start this podcast. So, if you’re a fan of the podcast, you can thank Suba for encouraging me at that point when I was really still considering whether it was something I wanted to go for. So, anyway, I just want to say that if you, an audience member, ever see me at your university or at a conference or if you hear that I’m coming, please come up and introduce yourself and identify yourself as a podcast listener or a mailing list subscriber or whatever you are and I would love to talk to you. If I have time in my schedule, I will hang out with you one on one if it’s at all possible. I love to meet people who are in my audience and consuming my content. I want to hear your insights. So, we’re getting Suba’s insights today. I’m really excited about that. So, Suba, will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

02:48 Suba: Absolutely. And I have to say, Emily’s a great lunch mate, so you all should totally do what she asked you to and come up and chat with her about finance. So, I am currently a postdoctoral fellow at Emory University, and it’s a really enjoyable experience. I am actually originally from the South and wanted to return to the South. And so that’s kind of how I ended up at Emory. I am in the Department of Behavioral Sciences and Health Education. So, that’s a School of Public Health Department. Yeah, it’s a great job.

Where Did You Do Undergrad?

03:31 Emily: Wonderful. And where did you do your undergrad? So, I know PhD at UCLA, and you’re at Emory now for your postdoc. Where was undergrad?

03:37 Suba: So, for my degree, you tend to do a master’s as well before you go on to your PhD. And so I did both my undergrad and my master’s at UNC Chapel Hill. Go Heels! I know, Emily, your rival school.

03:55 Emily: I was going to say, I think we were in the Triangle at the same time for at least a few years. But yes, I will allow that on my podcast. I’m a generous host. Okay. So, let’s talk about your debt repayment journey, which starts with a debt accumulation journey. So, tell us about that phase of your life.

Debt Accumulation Journey

04:12 Suba: So, I was really, honestly, I was very fortunate. I was really good with money for a long time and I was lucky to have had financial help from my parents during college and to have gotten both through my master’s and most of my PhD without accumulating any type of debt, consumer or student loan debt. And it was around the third year of my schooling in LA where I had a ton of unforeseen circumstances happen. So, I had some family illnesses. I had a lot of different difficult experiences happen and it was an emotionally trying time. And then it also became kind of a desperate time in terms of money. And even though I was working quite a bit, I just wasn’t totally making ends meet. And I think that that’s a very common experience for PhDs and can be one way that you really get into using credit cards or using student loans as a way to kind of just live your life. And being a PhD student is also a time in your life where you have to take a break from what might be a better-paying job to finish your degree. And I wasn’t one of these people, but I also think that there are a lot of people out there that probably are also very reliant on just their stipends to make ends meet. So, I think this is a pretty common situation to happen.

Importance of an Emergency Fund

05:44 Emily: We’re going to talk through how you’re remedying that situation. But just for anyone who hasn’t yet come upon that emergency situation in their life, if there’s any way that you can create some margin right now, some cash savings to help you kind of buffer through something like that, please, please take the opportunity to do so. So you don’t have to have this extreme reaction once an emergency does occur. And like you said, the thing about emergencies is that they’re rarely just financial, right? Something else has gone really poorly in some other area of life. Maybe it’s a huge emotional problem or a health problem or something like that. And so not only are you dealing with like logistics and emotions and just your routines being thrown off and your relationships, then you also have this financial component. So, at least what you can try to do for yourself, if at all possible, is to make the financial component of the emergency less of a thing so you can focus your energy on all these other areas of your life that need it at that time as well. So, that’s my soapbox. Okay.

Your PhD is Part of Your Life Journey

06:43 Suba: No, no, that’s a good soap box because one other thing I was going to say is I counsel a lot of students who are trying to enter PhD programs. And one of the pieces of advice I give them is something that I was given before I started my PhD. And that’s to think of your PhD journey or your PhD work as part of your whole life. And so, to also think about your finances at that time. So, one thing that was positive in this was that I had calculated out how much student loans I could take and feel a little bit less burden. So, the consumer debt I took on was unforeseen, but the student loan debt I had already pre-calculated what I thought was the maximum I could do in terms of payments if I got what I would consider just being a postdoc, honestly, in terms of finances is one of the lower-paying jobs that you can take because you’re usually on an NIH salary scale. So, that’s also my soapbox. You have to think about this as part of your life. And if you have the ability to preplan and save some money, have a little bit of savings, and also just assume that maybe you’ll have to take on more loan debt. How much could you afford given whatever your loan burden is now?

08:13 Emily: Yeah. I really appreciate you saying that because I think that if graduate students are not accustomed to taking out student loans, like maybe they haven’t done it since undergrad or they didn’t even do it in undergrad they might not think of turning to student loans in the case of some emergency expenses popping up. But it sounds like you did, like you took on some credit card debt, but then you also were using student loans to get you through this situation. So, can you talk about some of the advantages and also the disadvantages of choosing to use student loans versus just accumulating more credit card debt?

Student Loans vs. Credit Card Debt

08:47 Suba: Absolutely. I mean, one is that your interest rates–it’s always better to ask your university what type of emergency loan protections they have, which all universities do have that. And you can go to the scholarships and financial aid department and ask them about these short-term loan borrowing programs. And they are a lot more straightforward and they’re a lot more willing to work with you than a credit card company, which is a for-profit company, would be. So, I would say, that’s important. And the positive thing about student loans is that there are certain things, if you’re taking out federal loans, that you have access to which is the counseling components and the grace periods. And you can, eventually, if you do have student loans from undergrad or your master’s or some other type, you can roll them together and refinance them, and going through that is relatively painless.

09:54 Suba: And this is not necessarily something you can do with credit card debt. Right? What I would caution people against is if the student loans that you have to take out are private student loans, that then again gets you into this territory of consumer debt. So, I would really think about the terms and conditions of any private student loans that you might have to take out because they are often better than credit cards, but they still come with a lot of stipulations and issues. The problem with taking out a student loan is, unlike credit card debt, if there is something in the future where you have to declare bankruptcy, which could happen–happens to people for all kinds of reasons–you can’t discharge that debt at this point. And you also have to be really cautious if you’re thinking about maybe doing a public student forgiveness program. Sorry, public, what do you call it again?

10:52 Emily: Public service loan forgiveness.

Know the Terms and Conditions

10:54 Suba: Yeah. Which a lot of people in the medical sciences do. You hear a lot about people in medical and nursing programs, and there are a lot of people who are going to go into a nonprofit sector that think about that and it’s still a really viable option. It’s just you have to know the terms and conditions of that program going in so you can’t add to your debt burden without planning for how you might want to pay them off.

11:20 Emily: Yeah, I totally, totally agree with what you’re saying. I mean, when we’re thinking about credit cards versus student loans, federal student loans or private student loans, usually you’re looking at a lower interest rate for the student loans versus the credit cards. So, that’s attractive. But as you said, there’s a real danger point, which is if you ever get to the point where you are thinking about declining bankruptcy, you can’t get rid of those student loans. So, it’s a gamble, either way you go for it. But I really liked your suggestion of trying to access your university’s emergency loan system, which I don’t know about all, but I know that many universities do have that. And it’s certainly spreading, it’s a popular program that’s coming to more and more places.

Emergency Loans on Short Notice

12:00 Suba: And what I was going to say is you can also get those loans in very short periods of time. That’s why they’re considered emergency loans. So, if you know that there’s something that’s really looming on the horizon and even it’s maybe something that might happen to you next week, that could be something you can talk to a counselor about. And I think universities are really trying to be more sensitive about the fact that students, especially PhD students, are going through, you know, life challenges.

12:32 Emily: Yeah. And the thing about student loans is that they do take some time to apply for and acquire. So, it’s not a quick solution, but it might be something that you can set up if you know that you’re going to be holding debt for a longer period of time. I mean, not having to make payments on it, being in deferment while you’re still a graduate student is a really great benefit if it’s just not something that you are able to pay off in the moment. But of course, then you’re not paying it off. Right? So, the interest is accumulating. So, pluses and minuses there. It sounded like you ended up with a combination, then, of student loans and credit card debt.

Life Happens, Cost-of-Living Matters

13:02 Suba: I did, yeah. And one of the issues was, I was going through a lot of stuff and I just didn’t calculate how much I was spending. And I was having to deal with pretty significant emergencies that kind of made me have to travel and things like that. And so, that was how kind of this situation ended up happening. And then I also had some life circumstance changes that were great. Like I moved in with a partner. But you know, even that, any transition, honestly, is tied to money. And I’m living in Los Angeles. Another really big issue that might not be salient for people who live in maybe smaller places or less expensive places, is that the cost of living and especially the cost of rent goes up really quickly and sometimes without a lot of notice.

14:01 Suba: So, I also had to figure out my living situation and move apartments. So, I had a lot of things that really had nothing to do with my school life, which was going fine. And also, I did have a lot of financial help from school and from my fellowships and things like that. I was a fully-funded student. So, these are all, I think in an attempt not to scare anybody, but more to say we’ve got to think about the shocks and the issues that might come up and maybe prepare for them a little bit.

Inflection Point: Debt Talks

14:39 Emily: Totally, totally agree. So, thanks for going through that part of your story. At some point, you were no longer accumulating debt. In fact, you decided to turn it around and start paying that debt down. So, can you talk about the inflection point?

14:52 Suba: Right. And I think that was fairly recent. So, about a year ago, which coincided with me graduating from my PhD program, I also got married, which was great. And then I moved down here to start my postdoctoral fellowship. And my now husband also had a full-time job. And so, we said we think we want to start this next chapter of our lives. And one of the issues that we had sort of minimally talked about during our time together but hadn’t really deeply delved into was putting our finances together. And so, in having that conversation, we sort of said, “Hey, I think it’s time that we start to think really deeply and then have a clear plan about what we’re going to do and get rid of the debt that we are both carrying.”

15:46 Emily: Can you talk about how you went through that and how you tackled it, maybe for one of your peers listening here who is also facing a mountain of debt, a lot of different types of debt and doesn’t quite know how to start?

Tackling Debt Conversations

15:58 Suba: Yeah. I think the first step is to have a conversation and it’s usually one person says something like, “I’m totally scared about this debt, or I have so much debt and I don’t know what we’re going to do.” So, again, we opened up our finances to each other and said, “Hey, you know, we’ve decided to share a life together. What’s the most important thing that you want to do in the next five years? Like, what is the most important thing you feel like you want to spend money on? And why do you think, you know, getting rid of that debt would help?”

16:32 Suba: And so, having that discussion really made it sort of a positive and nonjudgmental environment to start having these conversations about money, which can be really anxiety-producing. And so, for me, making up these spreadsheets and having a plan and stuff was really energizing. I was like, “Okay, I am solving an issue.” For my husband, it was super anxiety-producing. It just created this feeling of like, “I don’t make enough money. I don’t know what to do.” You know? And so, also stopping at certain parts of this process. It may take, you know, more than one conversation to get to this point. And saying, “Okay, you know, the whole goal of this is not to stigmatize either one of us for bringing what we brought into the relationship, right?”

Dreaming, Not Blaming, Together

17:20 Emily: I like that – I just want to jump in and say, I really like that you started that conversation and are framing it around–I’m going to phrase it differently than you did–around dreaming together, right? Because as you just said, it puts this whole thing in a positive light. It’s not, “Oh, you know, sniping at each other, blaming each other for, you know, what’s happened in the past.” It’s, “No, like we’re standing together, we’re looking to the future. What do we want our bright future to look like? Let’s agree on that. And, okay. What are the steps we have to take to get to that point? Now, let’s tackle it.” But as you said, for some people it can feel like such a big thing to be working on. So challenging, like for your husband that it sounds like he wanted to shy away from it. Right? Whereas you wanted to charge toward it.

18:04 Suba: Yeah, it took different conversations to get to a point where–you know, and the honest truth is, he had less debt than I did. And so, the way I was feeling was, you know, a lot of blame and kind of shame. Or like, why, how did I bring this into our home, you know, kind of thing? And I think that that is a pretty common feeling for a lot of people. I don’t know anybody who’s had this conversation that hasn’t felt all kinds of feelings about it, you know? And so, I think from those big picture conversations you can also kind of talk about priorities. So, maybe one of you likes to travel more than the other. And so, setting up this idea of, “Okay, we’re going to decide that we want to take this many vacations a year or maybe we want to go to this many friends’ weddings a year, that’s important to us. We want to go home for Christmas or for New Year’s or things like that.” You know, like these are kinds of things that flow out of those conversations. What’s important to you, what’s your priority?

Allocating Money Toward Retirement

19:15 Suba: And we disagree on lots of things about spending money. It’s just we’ve allotted the parts of the money that we agree on so that we have this freedom, you know. So, one interesting thing about us is actually we don’t have a joint bank account. We still have separate bank accounts, and we’ve discussed maybe, but we have a joint savings account. And so, we’ve discussed how we allot money into our joint savings. And then we’ve also even talked about how we are going to allocate money towards our retirements because we look at those as shared money. And then after we’ve paid the bulk of our bills or whatever, the leftover that we haven’t allocated is our own money to spend the way that we feel. So, I think it’s also a balance between getting yourselves on the same page, making a shared priority list and plan, but then also saying, “Well, I don’t need to know and account for every dime that you’re spending. If you like to spend money on X thing and I don’t understand it, that’s okay. I don’t need to.” So, it’s not about controlling the other person, either.

Commercial

20:34 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15-minute call with me at pfforphds.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time. I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now, back to our interview.

Cataloging Debts

21:21 Emily: Okay, so first step was, “Let’s look at the picture. Okay. Let’s dig our heads out of the sand and look at what is the debt.” Okay. So, what did you do after that point?

21:30 Suba: Absolutely. We cataloged all the debts and the cataloging of this plan. So, essentially, we did create a full spreadsheet at this point of all of the debts, the interest rates, and what types of debt they were. So, was it student loans or consumer debts? And then when interest rates would either change or when they would kick in. And in terms of the consumer debt, one thing that I did was I called the credit card companies and I tried to get my interest rates lowered and be as nice as possible. And it did work for a few of them, actually, honestly. So, don’t be afraid to ask. The worst that can happen is that they say no and you can ask to be kicked up to people who have a little bit more power than maybe the receptionist that you talked to on the phone. And if you do it in a kind way, it works out. And then I also looked at the balance transfer offers that some of my credit cards had. And I would not say, like, open another credit card to do this. I would say, if you already have existing cards, many of them have balance transfer offers and they do charge a fee. So, weigh that fee against the amount that you save in interest by paying it off in the 0% period.

Strategically Using 0% Financing

22:54 Emily: I’m going to ask you a little bit further about this because I’ve never gone through this process myself. So, I want to know a little bit better. So, what you’re talking about is, you have an existing account open, and that account, you know, you see that they’re offering a 0% financing deal, 0% period. And so, what you’re doing then is you’re using that financing to pay off a different credit card balance, right? So, you’re sort of transferring the balance over to the other card that you had open that had that 0% offer. And then the offer is, “Okay, we’re not going to charge you interest for a given period of time.” Usually, it’s like 12 months or 18 months or something like that. What was it in your case?

23:28 Suba: It was 18 months. I only did the ones that were 18 or 22 months. So, the longest period. But you have to do this very strategically. What you don’t ever want to do is to be using these as another crutch so that you can kind of just not pay things off. So, I would then strategically plan to pay per month this amount off a few months before the end of the period. And so, that also gets to my next point. Part of after cataloging your debts, you have to catalog also the salaries that are coming in and the expenses. So, you have to see what your margin of expenses to your income is so that you can make a reasonable plan for your debt payoff.

Making the Minimum Credit Card Payments

24:23 Suba: You shouldn’t use any of these strategies in terms of your credit cards until you figure out, “Can I at least make the minimum payments on my credit cards? And then now I want to make more of a payment on either my credit card or my student loan.” If you’re having trouble making the minimum payments, I would absolutely say call your credit card companies and tell them, “Hey, I’m having a lot of trouble making my minimum payments.” Credit card companies want your money, and it’s better off that you don’t miss your payments because that can affect your entire credit history really negatively. So, these are, these are kind of things you have to do in tandem with one another. You have to catalog your debts and the times in which your debts need to be paid off. But then you also will have to catalog your expenses versus your income to see what’s a comfortable and reasonable amount for you to put towards paying off your debt every month. So, just to say, you had asked me before if I used a debt snowball versus debt avalanche. I think we are a little bit of a combination.

Debt Snowball vs. Debt Avalanche

25:35 Emily: Let’s pause and define that for the listeners who don’t know. I’ll just say, so in the debt snowball and the debt avalanche methods, which are these two very popular methods for repaying debt, repaying multiple debts, you usually pay the minimums on everything and then you make a list of your top priority to your lowest priority debts. And with all the remaining money you have to throw towards debt, you throw it at your top priority. This is in both systems. In the debt snowball method, the top priority is the debt with the lowest balance. And in the debt avalanche method, the top priority is the debt with the highest interest rate.

26:11 Emily: So, debt snowball, you move from smallest balance to largest balance, paying each one off in full. And then moving on to the next one. Debt avalanche method, paying the highest interest rate first. And then once you pay that one-off, completely moving on to the one with the next highest interest rate. The debt snowball method, the sort of reasoning behind it is that it’s very psychologically motivating to be able to cross that small debt, that first small debt off your list and you know, feel like you’re making a lot of progress and move on to the next one. Versus the debt avalanche method is mathematically the most optimal way to go about things. If you were to throw the exact same amount of money into both methods, the debt avalanche method would get you out of debt the fastest. So, go ahead and explain, between those two extreme models, what you actually did.

26:53 Suba: So, I’m still in the process of this. So, I also don’t want to say, “Look at me, I’m debt-free, and I could give you all this advice.” No, we’re still in the process of this and it’s been really fruitful for us. But we started off with the debt avalanche method. So, we wanted to pay off these highest interest debts first and within the reason of the amount of debt pay off that we could do per month. Right? And then when we would get to a certain threshold, so maybe it was a thousand dollars or $500, we would pay off that card or that debt in full. And that gave us, on some months, that would give you just like an extra boost. You know, it just makes you feel good to see that zero balance. And when you pay off a piece of a student loan, they send you a congratulations email. So, that doesn’t hurt too badly, either.

Prioritizing Interest Rates

27:46 Emily: So, I want to clarify because some listeners may have this question. So, if you have at least one, maybe multiple credit cards where you’re currently in a zero interest rate promotional period, does that become a low priority for you or is that still a high priority because the eventual interest rate is going to most likely be quite high? Can you talk a little bit about that?

28:09 Suba: So, I prioritize by the time that the interest rate would change and turn into the higher debt rates. So, say it was January 1st, I would make a plan where I would subtract two months from that, so November, and then I would calculate how much per month I would need to pay on that card to pay it off in full by that November. So, it doesn’t necessarily become a low priority or a higher priority. For some debts, you can’t change the interest rate, right? So, any of those debts would be the debts I would pay off the soonest if I can, or pay off the largest amount. I also thought a lot about how much debt I was carrying per card.

28:57 Suba: So, in one situation, I essentially didn’t have that many credit cards, right? So, one of my cards was more than 30% utilized, which is a lot, and that’s not very good for your credit score, either. So, my goal was to get that less, like lower than 30%. So, I prioritize basically based on the highest debt, and then when the interest rate would change from 0% to whatever it was. And it’s also really important, I don’t want any of your listeners to like go willy nilly and start moving their money around to 0% interest credit cards. That’s a strategy to be used when you need extra time and you have to really make a very clear plan that’s very reasonable to get that done and see what the fee is versus how much benefit you get. So, the fees always range from either 2% to like a minimum of a certain amount of dollars. So, you have to see what that is for each of your, you know, things. And I would definitely call credit card companies first and see if you can lower the interest rate before you change anything.

Automating Debt Payments

30:21 Emily: Okay. What’s your next thing that you did, or your tip for someone else facing this challenge?

30:27 Suba: So, I think, you know, I talked about how you should catalog your expenses towards your income and then figure out what’s a percentage of your paycheck per month that you’re going to put to your debt. And then you want to automate that. So, you basically want to be making a specific payment. And you can either do that, if it’s on your credit card, you can put the payment to a specific date or if it’s to your student loan servicer you can make sure that the check for your student loan comes out of your bank account at the same time.

31:02 Suba: So, you want your income to come in and then that money to go out almost immediately. So, you almost don’t see it, right? So, the reason I say, you know, and this isn’t like news, you know. Automating your finances helps so much because it lowers the stress of you having to keep track of it. But it also tricks you a little bit, psychologically. You never see that money after your paycheck comes in. So, you don’t feel like you have it, right? It’s already gone. It’s already been pledged to something. So, I think that helps.

31:39 Emily: I totally, totally agree. I’m a huge fan of automating, paying yourself first. Absolutely. Go ahead.

Paying Yourself First

31:42 Suba: Yeah. And, you know, there’s been a little bit of discussion sometimes too towards this idea of paying yourself first, right? And I think a lot about that. When you’re starting your first jobs after your PhD and even, you know, some postdocs and fellowships allow you to pay into their retirement system. If there’s a way you can think about putting some level of money per month into retirement, even if it’s just $50 a month or something like that. And that’s something that doesn’t seem astronomical. That’s also an important part of this calculation. And I think there’s a lot of debate on whether you should go whole hog and pay off your debt first and then think about your retirement. And people have all kinds of philosophies. I’m, you know, a moderate. And so, I think you have to live your life. So, you want to try to take advantage of the systems, the positive systems, that you have at the same time. So, my husband and I also looked at our retirement plans and factored in how much money we could put pretax and then put post-tax, if that was possible, into Roth IRAs. So, we thought about that in this whole system as well.

32:58 Emily: Absolutely. We are focusing on talking about debt right now, but once you get certain interest rates of debt eliminated, once those rates, you know, anything you have remaining is sort of in, as you were kind of just saying, a more moderate range, maybe six, seven, 8% or less. That’s the kind of time where you can start saying, “Okay, maybe we should do some retirement savings, not just the debt repayment.” But, to emphasize, if we’re talking about credit card debt, get rid of that credit card debt. Okay, go for that first.

Plan for the Future

33:25 Suba: That should be number one. Absolutely. And I think the next thing that we did then is to think about possible future changes and issues that could come up. So, you know, changes could be things like, “Well we have to prepare for making sure we go visit our family during the holidays or that we have to buy Christmas presents or things like that.” So, kind of trying to figure out what are the issues that we have had in the past that we didn’t prepare for? How can we prepare for them now? So that, you know, that’s an ongoing conversation that’s part of this.

34:08 Emily: I think that’s a really important thing to bring up, especially again for grad students and postdocs who don’t have large amounts of cash flow going through their bank accounts. Because there are going to be months where you have some larger expenses. So, to be able to save up that cash, to handle that at that time, that’s going to prevent you from, again, turning back to the credit card. So, it’s still kind of about debt repayment or debt avoidance to have that cash saved up, again for people who couldn’t easily absorb one of those large expenses in your monthly cash flow.

Small Changes, Big Differences

34:40 Suba: Absolutely. And even if it’s just, you know, a small amount that you put away every month. Again, we’re not having to think about these things in huge dollar amounts. I think sometimes what gets people a little bit down or can be very frustrating is this idea that these have to be very large amounts to make a difference. They don’t. Even if you have a buffer of a hundred dollars and you don’t put that hundred dollars on a high-interest credit card, that’s better. That’s why people have emergency funds. And so, it’s going to take a little bit of preplanning and it’s going to take some time, too. And even if you don’t have much of a buffer and that’s not something you’re able to do, that’s about the situation as well. So, that’s okay as well. It’s just you plan, you say, “Okay, when these credit cards are paid off or when the student loan is paid off, then that money that I’ve allocated towards the credit cards and student loans will now go to another priority.”

35:50 Emily: Exactly. And this goes back to the earlier part of our conversation where we were talking about looking forward into the future. You know, “What does my life, what do I want my life to look like this year, in the next five years, whatever it is?” Part of that is planning, “Okay, I’m going to be doing this type of traveling.” Guess what? Holiday gift-giving season comes up every single year at the same time. We know it’s there. So, yeah, just looking even ahead a few months or a year and just figuring out, “Okay, what are these life things that are going to happen?” They have to be part of the plan as well.

Positive Rewards (Treat Yo’ Self)

36:19 Suba: And part of this too is, just as you prepare for these issues that might come up, you’ve also got to give yourself positive small rewards. And so, what my husband and I did was we thought about things that we could give ourselves as a reward that didn’t involve us spending money. So, maybe once we got to a certain place, we went to like a new park in a city. And you can also prepare in your budget if there are things that cost money, like you want to buy a coffee every morning, you know, you put that into your budget. That’s your small reward for living life as a human being. I think my whole debt payoff philosophy is that you’ve still got to live your life, you know, in the most enjoyable way that you can.

37:12 Suba: Yeah. And another thing is, you can have a potluck with people without telling them the reason why. You know, like that’s another thing. Sometimes you can create a celebration and you don’t necessarily have to tell them, “Well, it’s because I paid 5% of my consumer debt off.” Right? Like that’s still a way to mark something positive and create a positive memory. And you know, things like that, they don’t cost a lot. And so, that also helped keep us motivated. So, we would say, “Okay, well we will save this treat until we get to this point.” And we tried to vary the different kinds of things that we would do.

Business Meeting Times

37:59 Suba: And one of the last things is we created kind of a business meeting time. So, I think one of the issues that happens when you start to get into this mindset of paying off debt or tracking things is that you think about it a lot. And especially if you’re somebody like me who really likes spreadsheets, you’ll be looking at it on your computer all the time and thinking about ways you could optimize. That’s not the best, I think, way to go about it because it can also become negative. You can start to look at the numbers and feel like things are not really moving that much. So, we would create a business meeting time when we would talk about these money-related issues or debt payoff issues. And then the rest of the time we would try not to bring it up. So, having that protected time to talk about it also meant that your entire relationship isn’t really consumed by it. And then also your own thinking throughout the day when you’re working and things are happening, you’re not thinking about it all the time.

39:10 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I’ve heard the strategy of having a business meeting with your spouse or whatever. And I’ve also definitely heard the strategy of compartmentalizing difficult subjects into, as you said, a time on the calendar. Like you know it’s designated that you’re going to think about it or you’re going to talk about it at that time. It helps it from bleeding into all the rest of your life. So, I really like your combination of those two ideas.

Make it a Positive Environment

39:31 Suba: Yeah. I think when it can kind of create anxiety and worry, and if anyone is prone to anxiety or worry, it could just like snowball into a lot. And you want to treat that time to be a time when other things are not as stressful. So, if you know, maybe like it’s after your kids have gone to bed or it’s on a Sunday because you know like on Sundays you don’t have as much to do, and you want to make that situation as positive as possible. So, sometimes we would like open a beer and sit down or something like that. Just like, make it a positive environment and start off the discussion in a positive way as best you can because these topics are difficult. And every month you may not see progress, right? So, there are things that happen. That’s the other thing. You may have all of these great plans in place and then one month you have to cut down a little bit on paying debt because you have another expense, you know? And so, those are kind of the times when you can have these conversations.

40:43 Emily: Definitely. Again, I love that you’re bringing up any way you can to put kind of a more positive spin on what is fundamentally a really hard situation to be in.

Be Kind to Yourself and Others

40:53 Suba: I guess in the last tip I would say, and I think I’ve said this throughout, is you have to be extremely kind to yourself. I think debt is incredibly stigmatizing. And I feel like I’m somebody who follows a lot of financial blogs and a lot of financial people online. And I think one of the things is we cannot be mean to ourselves or other people about their choices around money. Everybody’s choices are really, really different, and it’s very normal. Especially in this day and age when when people’s jobs are changing so much and maybe they’ve had different circumstances that the only real way to be empowered is to first normalize the fact that this is something that is part of your life. It’s something that happened to you because of a certain set of circumstances, but it’s not something that you can’t control. It’s not something that you eventually can’t get over, you know? And the only real way to be like, I think, empowered is to let go of some of the stigma, especially towards ourselves. We can be really unkind towards ourselves when we make, you know, choices that we don’t think are the best. We should be able to talk about these things a little bit more. And get advice from one another about how to tackle some of these things, even though our situations aren’t the same.

Best Advice for Early-Career PhDs

42:16 Emily: Yeah. And that’s exactly what we’ve done with this interview. And so, Suba, thank you so much for putting yourself out there. So, I like to end with this one question for all of my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? It could be related to the conversation we’ve had today, it could be something totally else.

42:34 Suba: I think my best advice is probably two things. One is try to plan, preplan, for changes in your life as much as you can, as best you can. And then the other is it’s never too late to start improving your finances. It doesn’t matter if you are $10,000 in debt, $200 in debt or a hundred thousand dollars in debt. You know, just figure out what your priorities are and see if you can align your priorities with what you want your financial life to look like in the future.

43:08 Emily: Yeah. I don’t want anyone to feel discouraged about debt numbers. I mean even you can look back through the archives, this podcast and I’ve had several interviews with people who are paying off six figures worth of debt successfully. So, it can be done. It does take work, it takes a positive attitude, Suba as you were just saying, it takes organization. But you know what, grad students and PhDs, we have some of those qualities in spades. So, this is definitely something that is tackleable for our community. And again, thank you so much for talking about this topic today on the podcast.

43:40 Suba: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Outtro

43:43 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Learn From This Poor Kid-Turned-PhD Student’s Different Perspective on Frugality and Debt (Part 2)

March 16, 2020 by Lourdes Bobbio Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interview ZW Taylor (Zach), a PhD student in Educational Leadership and Policy at the University of Texas at Austin. As a child, Zach identified as a “poor kid” and never thought higher education was for him. His upbringing and winding path through community college and his bachelor’s and master’s degrees taught him lessons about money that he has carried into his life as a PhD student – for better and for worse. In this second half of the conversation, Zach gives detailed and unique financial advice to prospective and rising graduate students on evaluating stipend offer letters and selecting housing. He was determined to not go into debt during his PhD, so he thoroughly investigated his stipend offer letter and the socioeconomic layout of his new city before accepting the offer. Finally, Zach shares his vision for the future of his finances once he’s done with his PhD and earning a significantly higher paycheck.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Zach: If they want you and they offer funding, then in a different side of the same coin, they should be able to tell you specifically what you’re getting, because how can you budget, how can you plan without knowing what your income is? I mean, it’s incredibly important. So to your point, encouraging PhD students to be their own best friends and their own advocates and be very clear about what you’re getting before you go.

Introductions

00:29 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five episode eleven and today my guest is Zach Taylor, a PhD student in educational leadership and policy at the University of Texas at Austin. Zach has such a unique perspective and so much wonderful advice that I’ve split our interview into two episodes, last week’s and this one. In this episode, Zach gives detailed and unique financial advice to prospective and rising graduate students on evaluating stipend, offer letters and selecting housing. He was determined to not go into debt during his PhD, so he thoroughly investigated his stipend offer letter and the socioeconomic layout of his new city before accepting the offer. At the end of the episode, Zach shares his vision for the future of his finances once he’s done with his PhD and earning a significantly higher paycheck. Without further ado, here’s the second part of my interview with Zach Taylor.

Financial Advice for Early Career PhDs

01:30 Zach: You know, in terms of advice for other early career PhDs, in terms of saving money and thinking about going to grad school, especially with the kind of frugal mindset is I was not going to go to grad school one, if I had any debt. That was just something that I had always thought to myself that if I’m going, again another childhood lesson, if I’m going to pay for it, I’m going to pay for it in cash and I’m not going to take out a loan. My best advice for early career folks who are thinking about the PhD is if you can work before you go to grad school and pay down any undergrad debt you might have. I know it’s not possible for some folks, but try your best to get some work experience and pay down that debt.

Further reading:

02:18 Zach: And then when you’re thinking about doing the PhD, do some of the same leg work that I did. Investigate the city — where is public transportation? Where are groceries? How can you get around? Talk with other folks who have been there for a couple of years. You know, one reason I came to UT Austin is that everyone was eager to give me their perspective. I mean, when I asked people how do you like living? How much do you spend? Where do you live? How do you get to school? No one held information back from me. Everyone was so willing to share because I think you want to help other folks out. So ask questions and be inquisitive and see where you can make it work financially. But then when you make that choice, I made the choice that I was going to go to a funded PhD program. I was going to work through. I wasn’t expecting just to not have to have an assistantship. I’ve worked all the way through, but I’m also not gonna have to take out any loans. And I think if you have the right combination of work experience and academic experience in certain fields, you can find those programs that are very, very low cost or no cost and be able to work through.

03:27 Emily: I just want to add a couple of comments on those pieces of advice, starting with your most recent one. So in the STEM fields and engineering, where I’m coming from, there’s this advice I guess, that people sometimes say to a prospective graduate students, which is that an acceptance without funding is a tacit rejection. Like if you are not offered funding along with your offer of admission, they don’t really want you there. And that’s typical in those kinds of fields. And at a certain, I’ll say tier of university. Not every graduate students — I mean some people do either take, you know, fully pay for their PhDs on their own, like there’s no funding package offered or they go into a situation where they know, okay, sometimes there’s going to be funding, sometimes there’s not going to be, or okay I’m going to have funding to a degree but I’m also going to have to do X, Y, Z to make up the deficit.

Emily: It’s really hard for me to ever say something as blanket as don’t go to a PhD program if you have to take out debt, because I just, I want to allow for individual situations. But I mean it sounds like from your perspective, even being in a totally different field than I’m coming from, you were still determined, I’m not going to go to graduate school if I have to take out debt. It’s just not going to happen under those circumstances. So you were very selective about where you applied slash the programs that you were actually considering going to, to make sure that you could make it happen in that way, even though it did in your case involve outside work as well.

What to Research When Choosing a Program

04:59 Zach: Absolutely. And one thing that I really insisted upon before I came and I don’t, know of too many other young PhD prospective PhD students who do this, but you really have to push the graduate coordinator or someone in financial aid. Know exactly what you’re getting. It’s really easy to say you’ll have an assistantship and it’ll provide a stipend. After taxes and benefits, how many specific dollars am I getting? When in the month am I being paid? Am I being paid biweekly or monthly? Am I paid over the summer? What are the opportunities for employment over the summer? As someone who is going to embark on a five or six year journey, they owe that to you. They have the information, they can provide that to you.

Zach: Before I came I was very, very explicit in saying, if I’m going to leave this job that I know that I like and I’m going to forego wages for five years and give up a salary and not be able to save any money, what am I specifically getting? What are the specific opportunities? And then matching them up with the area and saying, okay, I can make this sacrifice for four or five years. Yes, I’m going to forego wages and a savings, but I’m also not going to be in so over my head or I’m going to feel pressured to make choices that I wouldn’t normally make. And you know, Emily, to your point, it’s absolutely been the case in my experiences and other classmates that there have been times where they’re unclear about their funding package because it wasn’t made specifically clear when they were admitted. Kind of that tacitly, if you’re not fully funded, we don’t fully want you. If they want you and they offer funding, then in a different side of the same coin, they should be able to tell you specifically what you’re getting, because how can you budget, how can you plan without knowing what your income is? I mean, it’s incredibly important. So to your point, encouraging PhD students to be their own best friends and their own advocates and be very clear about what you’re getting before you go.

07:10 Emily: Oh my gosh, I’m so glad that you made this point even more explicit because it’s one that I talk about frequently during admission season. Check the show notes, if you are a prospective graduate student because there will be links there to further articles and workshops and resources that I have on that exact topic of figuring out exactly what your offer letter is saying to you and asking questions when there’s a lapse in information in the offer letter. And I mean, to your point, pay frequency. I mean that’s not even something that you would necessarily think about, but it’s really important once you’re actually on the ground and doing that budgeting. I’m super glad you brought that up.

Further reading/listening/watching:

Emily: But to go back to one earlier point would you mentioned which was paying off debt and working potentially before starting graduate school. I totally have to concur on this because, now student loans I’ll put in one basket, okay, because student loans can be deferred while you’re in graduate school, but other kinds of debt — credit card debt, car debt, any other kind of debt that you have to be making payments on during graduate school — do everything within your power I would say to clear that before getting into graduate school because the stipend is already so meager, you don’t want to have ongoing payments that you don’t have to, once you’re in that situation. And then of course the student loans in another basket, if it’s at all possible to pay down part or all of them are maybe the ones that the highest interest rate or just to make some kind of progress on that student loan debt, if you’re carrying a lot of it, before you start graduate school. It’s an amazing step to take. It’s a gift to yourself. Me personally, I had some student loans coming out of undergrad. I was sure to pay off all of the unsubsidized student loans before I started graduate school. The subsidized student loans, they’re not going to garner interest during that time. At that point, wasn’t caring about that so much, but I got the unsubsidized ones wiped off before I started graduate school. Just wanted to emphasize that point as well. Please go on with your other other advice for early career PhDs.

08:59 Zach: Yes. So this is more about where you’re planning to study and how you can kind of network beforehand. You brought up a great point that I want to hit on again about where you’re living and how much you’re paying and understanding kind of the socioeconomic context of not the university, but the city. Austin, like you said, is really rapidly growing and I applied across the country. I applied to Indiana, Vanderbilt, Stanford, Michigan, Princeton, Cornell, all over the place. But I was really specific about researching Austin when I got in because I knew how rapidly Austin was growing. And to give you an idea of the cost of living increase and how much graduate students are actually paid, I moved into this current one bedroom apartment back in the spring of 2017 for $960 a month and I am a one hour commute from campus. So I’m one hour away for $960, with utilities it’s about $1200 a month. That was a sacrifice I made. However, these apartments now go for $1310. So they have increased almost $400 in two years. And I’m still one hour from campus. If I was arriving to Austin today and having to sign a lease today, I would pay almost $400 more than I would have paid just two years ago. Now you had talked a 10% increase — 30% increase, 40% increase. And these are not….we don’t have a garage. We don’t have a private yard. We don’t have too many amenities. It’s a pretty standard one bedroom apartment with air conditioning, but it’s also an hour away from campus.

10:53 Zach: I always host PhD students in the spring who are prospective students. And I always, when I show them apartments, I ask not only for the current rent because a lot of major cities have market rent, which means it changes, with the ebbs and flows of moving season throughout the year. Don’t only ask for the rent now and move in, but ask for it three years prior because they have records of all the leasing contracts and all of the, um, leasing and rental agreements. So you can see how rent has changed and gone up or gone down in a certain area. And actually I just helped a friend from Michigan move in just the other week and he and his partner made a very specific decision to go to a certain complex and neighborhood because the rent had been somewhat stable over the past three years and had only gone up about $180 over three years. Whereas my neighborhood is in a different kind of more developing area of Austin and it is growing like crazy.

Zach: Especially when you’re moving into a new city, getting an idea of historical trends and then do the exact same thing for the stipend. How much was the living stipend, how much was the assistantship five years ago? What does it now and do you anticipate a cost of living increase and is that going to be compensated by the university? Something that UT Austin recently did was dedicate new money to try to keep up with cost of living and try to develop some new graduate student housing, which we haven’t really talked about, but always inquire about graduate student and subsidized housing because some universities still do have it. Even though in a very landlocked, city locked university like UT Austin, there’s not a lot of room for expansion anymore, but always ask about the cost of living increases in historical rent in the city, how that relates to the stipend from the university and then what the university is going to do to keep up with that cost of living. I couldn’t agree more.

12:56 Emily: Yeah. I’m so glad you made that point.

Commercial

13:02 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Understanding The Role of Cost of Living Increases

14:05 Emily: Really, a new idea for me is actually asking about those historical rents and seeing the increases. This might be a silly question, but does Austin have any rent protection in place? Like increases can only be a certain amount over time, like in terms of laws in place?

14:21 Zach: Not that I am aware of and it doesn’t seem to have translated to people who have actually been into leases and stayed multiple years. Our rent has only gone up $60 in two years, but for the same apartment, for new leases, it’s that new elevated price. However, and this to me was just absolutely ridiculous, I was actually outraged by this, that we have a valet trash fee that is mandated. That we have to pay $14 a month to have somebody pick up our trashcan outside the door and take it to the dumpster. Now the dumpster is a half a block away and I don’t want to pay for valet trash, but I have to because it’s part of the lease and it’s an industry that Austin supports. So there are some fees — you know I’ve heard a lot about the fee creep and higher education where you might have a tuition freeze, but you can keep charging student fees and those add up. The same thing happens with amenities and fees in Austin. The trash fee has gone up, water has gone up, electricity has gone up. It used to be that we would come in a close to $100 over the summertime for air conditioning. Now it’s closer to $140 or $150, and it’s a dramatic increase. So not only understanding the rent, but really understanding what fees you have to pay, what are mandatory, what are optional, and then how those feeds are going to be adjusted over time, because in some big cities they’re just mandated and you just have to bite the bullet and pay for them even if you don’t want to. But those really add up just in fees. We pay an extra $95 or $100 a month just in fees.

16:09 Emily: Yeah. What I’m getting from this part of our discussion is just the importance of interrogating every single component of your offer, of what your living expenses are going to be. And all the time that you put into researching these different components before you actually move to the city that your graduate school is in, or after graduate school, same story, it’s really going to be worth it. It’s going to pay off when you do this research, because the less you have to learn on the ground once you’re there and make changes, the easier it’s going to be. If you can find a place you want to live for several years right from the beginning, it’s a lot easier for you. I did want to go back to make one other point from what you said earlier about asking about the historical stipends. I definitely think you should and can ask a graduate program that, but I wanted to plug my own website, which is PhDstipends.com and also I have another one for postdocs, postdocsalaries.com. PhD Stipends has been around for five years now, I think. And people enter which academic year, the stipend their listing is for. So if your university has enough data in there, you definitely can look back, even potentially at your own department and see what they were paying five years back to compare it to what’s in your offer letter.

17:24 Zach: Yeah, absolutely. And to your point about having that access to data and actually seeking that out, now that you mentioned that, I don’t know anyone else who did that when they came. A lot of folks were really excited just to be able to come to Austin and to be in a PhD program. It’s a very highly ranked program. It’s very prestigious around the country, so a lot of folks were just happy to be there. But then down the road they really kind of regretted not understanding where they were going to live, how much they were going to make. Also the time crunch in making a decision. I had to make my decision in a series of three or four weeks. I mean really in graduate student visits when I was admitted to PhD programs, I the beginning of February really until about mid-March to visit places, do my research. So also understanding how that’s going to affect whatever job you have at the time.

Zach: When you’re exploring PhD programs, it is a serious time commitment. I mean just finding a PhD program in a city that fits you and your budget and that you can continue to maintain your expectation of living whatever that is, is like a full time job. It’s like being on the job market and people should take it with the same seriousness and explore all of those resources that they can because like you said, I have been very, very fortunate. It was some good planning, but I’ve been very, very fortunate not to have to move every year, not to have to sublet. That means my computer workstation has stayed the same. I have a routine. I’ve been able to write. I’ve been able to travel because I haven’t had to worry about where I’m going to live, how much money I’m going to make. It’s all very budgeted, all very meticulous and I think that has really made the PhD program a much more fulfilling experience, because like you said, I have gone through those hoops initially to make sure that I was in a place that I could afford and I would feel comfortable in.

Final Words of Advice

19:24 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. I’m so glad that you brought up that point as well. Any final advice for other early career PhDs?

19:31 Zach: Yes, so I guess lastly, and it’s kind of more of a philosophical point, is I did make the choice not to go to a PhD program that wasn’t going to financially support me. And I think, most people who pursue a PhD, it’s right in the prime of their earning potential, right? So you’re talking early twenties to anywhere in the late thirties like that 10 to 15 year period, you can make a lot of money during that time of your life and pay down a lot of debt. You have to understand that going and getting a PhD, you’re going to forego wages and you might take on debt. It’s such a double edged sword because you’re losing money on one hand, and you’re kind of having to borrow more money. So really, really committing and making that sacrifice, because understanding how many hundreds and thousands of dollars you may be foregoing in the future, and having to pay back debt, and having lost wages.

Zach: The sacrifices I made were having a very compromised social life and a very kind of frugal living down here because I knew it’s going to be four or five years of just extreme sacrifice. I am not going to go out. I am not going to go out to eat very often, I have only gone out for drinks three times in three and a half years and all three times were for professional networking, and to work on projects. I just don’t do it. A margarita is $12 and that’s my food budget for almost an entire week. I have made that kind of level of commitment to stay out of debt and to do it frugally. Not everyone can do that, but if you can commit to doing that, you can get out without debt or with very low debt and 10 or 15 years down the road, you’ll really thank yourself, and you’ll look back and you’ll realize, you know what? I think that sacrifice was worth it.

21:27 Emily: Yeah, I think so. I mean your point about opportunity cost is a very, very important one and not something that people, I think think about enough going into PhD program. For me, it’s another reason to work before you go into a PhD program because you have a better idea of what you are giving up on the one hand in terms of salary potential during that time. And you also have more context for your PhD work. What is this going to do for me on the career side?

Financial Plans After Grad School

21:51 Emily: I’m gonna surprise you with one last question, Zach. This is not what I prepared you with, but what do you think you’re going to be doing with your finances once you’re done with the PhD? And hopefully, you have a job you enjoy that pays you much better than whar you’re being paid right now. Do you see yourself shedding some of these mindsets and habits that you’ve carried with you to this point? And if so, how? How can you even step away from this since it’s been going on for so long in your life now?

22:22 Zach: Yes. It is such a lifestyle. I cannot emphasize that enough. I have thought about what I want to do with my money when I graduate and get a job and now I don’t have debt and the money is mine to spend. I don’t want a larger than two bedroom house because I’ve never lived in a place larger than that. I wouldn’t feel comfortable in a four bedroom house in the suburbs. That’s just not me. I would not feel at home there or comfortable. I could never buy a new car. I could never do that. I would not feel comfortable driving in a 2019 anything. I’ve always bought used cars. I wouldn’t even feel comfortable doing that. If you remember actually from HEFWA, though, what is really, really important to me is donating. I wanted to stay out of debt and get a PhD and have the earning potential to donate to certain programs that I was a part of as a kid and that really helped me out. I think when people are asked about “why do you save money?” I saved so I can give more. Since I’ve been a PhD student, I have been able to donate about $700 to my alma mater and a mentoring program that they have going that I was a part of when I was there. For me, that is such a better use of the money instead of going downtown a couple of weekends and having drinks. I feel so much better about it.

Zach: I think having an understanding of the kind of money I will make when I’m done and then how I’ve grown up, it’s going to allow me to do a lot more good and amplify a lot of the philanthropy that I’ve started doing, and that is really how I’m going to be spending a lot of my expendable income as you could say. I’m going to start a savings account. I’m going to start a 403B or a 401k or some employer sponsored a savings account. If there’s a state pension program, I’ll participate in that. But it’s really going to free me up to spend money where I think it needs to be spent, which is education and low income kids. And like I said, I’m going to look back on my time at UT and Austin and say, maybe I was able to send some kid to community college because I didn’t go out. I was able to help some kid get their associate’s degree because I made those sacrifices and I will trade that any day of the week.

24:56 Emily: I’m so glad to have that incredible perspective from you on the podcast today. It sounds like a really bright future and happy for you that you’ll be finished quite soon, and you’ll get there before too long. Zach, it’s been an absolute delight to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for joining me.

25:16 Zach: Absolutely. Thanks Emily.

Outtro

25:18 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

Learn From This Poor Kid-Turned-PhD Student’s Different Perspective on Frugality and Debt (Part 1)

March 9, 2020 by Lourdes Bobbio Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interview ZW Taylor (Zach), a PhD student in Educational Leadership and Policy at the University of Texas at Austin. As a child, Zach identified as a “poor kid” and never thought higher education was for him. His upbringing and winding path through community college and his bachelor’s and master’s degrees taught him lessons about money that he has carried into his life as a PhD student – for better and for worse. In this first half of the conversation, Zach shares the financial struggles his family experienced when he was a child and how he finally committed to higher education – without debt – as a way out. Living in Austin, Texas, with its rapidly inflating cost of living, has its own challenges, and Zach still employs some extreme frugal strategies that he developed earlier in his life.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Zach: Whenever I submit to a conference, I will email the conference chair and try to arrange some sort of email conversation or phone call and ask to volunteer in exchange registration feeds. So there are probably 25 conferences that I’ve gone to in state and out of state. I have never been turned away.

Introduction

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five episode ten, and today my guest is Zach Taylor, a PhD student in Educational Leadership and Policy at the University of Texas at Austin. Zach has such a unique perspective and so much wonderful advice that I’ve split our interview into two episodes, this one and next week’s. In this episode, Zach shares the financial struggles his family experienced when he was a child and how he finally committed to higher education, without debt, as a way out. Living in Austin, Texas with its rapidly inflating cost of living has its own challenges and Zach still employs some extreme frugal strategies that he developed earlier in his life. Without further ado, here’s the first part of my interview with Zach Taylor.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:20 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Zach Taylor, and this is a really special episode for me because we’re recording this in August, 2019 and Zach and I actually met at a conference just last month. We were both at the Higher Education Financial Wellness Summit and Zach was a keynote speaker. And he had just this incredibly compelling story to tell during that keynote, which he’ll tell us a shortened version of that during this podcast, of his own personal story. And then during that keynote he also talked a lot about his academic work and we’re not going to get into that so much in this interview, but rather how Zach’s upbringing and the money mindsets and lessons he learned as a child have affected how he handles his finances as a graduate student. And also some tips for other graduate students who may find themselves in a similar financial situation to Zach. Zach, I’m so happy to have you on the podcast today. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

02:17 Zach: Absolutely. Thanks Emily. Zach Taylor. At this point, I’m a PhD candidate at UT Austin in Higher Education Leadership. I have done a lot of things in education. I’ve been an admissions reader, college instructor, high school English instructor, youth coordinator, mentoring program coordinator. I’ve kind o, been in education my entire life. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and be talking about this because so many of my life lessons in living an educational life. My mom was also a teacher. It’s been constantly learning new things and ways to save money. I’m so excited to be able to share it today.

Early Childhood and Living in Poverty

02:58 Emily: Yeah. Perfect. So let’s go back to your childhood, your pre-college days and tell us what was going on with you around that time, what was going on with your family?

03:09 Zach: I grew up very low income in the Midwest. Kind of grew up all over the place. My dad had a really hard time holding a job and it came to a head when I was about seven or eight years old. I think my mom realized that she couldn’t just take care of my brother and I, she needed to work, because my dad just couldn’t do it. She became a teacher, and we lived on that teacher salary pretty much my entire adolescence until I was 13. Something kind of tragic happened in my family at that point, so my mom and I decided to leave and go make a life on our own. And if any listeners out there are children of divorce, you can know how financially crippling that is, especially on a teacher’s salary. My mom paid child support to my dad. We were very, very poor. We split a apartment together. She became kind of more than a mom to me. She was kind of my roommate and my best friend and someone who split expenses with me.

Zach: And that was happening during high school. I was an athlete in high school and I quit most all sports by junior year because I needed to work. I needed to make money. I wasn’t able to buy food and pay for transportation and feel like I could save any kind of money at all. And that mindset growing up, coming from the family, I came from — loved going to the library because the library was free. I loved riding the bus because the bus was free. It didn’t cost anything. It was always reliable. It was always there for me. And so as I was growing up, having lived with my mom and having worked really, really early on, a lot of those behaviors really carried into college. I still, to this day, I love a good library. I love a good bus ride. I love having roommates. I’ve never really lived on my own because I’m so used to splitting expenses and living as frugally as possible. I’ve kind of foregone a lot of privacy in my life for that reason. I’m happy to share a lot of those experiences, and how they’ve translated in my college life because I’m again surprised how many habits were formed when I was a young kid that actually, I still practice to this day.

Path to the PhD

05:39 Emily: Yeah, we will definitely get into that in a moment. I also wondered if you could share for the listeners a little bit of your nontraditional path to the PhD. Because there may be some people in the audience who are thinking, well, they have some degree of imposter syndrome as many people do, but maybe a higher degree than others because of not going directly to college after high school or starting in a community college like you did. So can you talk about how you got to where you are now educationally?

06:08 Zach: Yes. I was not a good high school student. Like I said, kind of a broken home, working a lot. I never wanted to go to college. I actually didn’t think about going to college until my stepdad — I was living in my mom and stepdad’s basement working at a gas station and he had said, you’re a smart kid, you can probably go to community college. I was actually not fully admitted to community college. I had to take remedial courses. I had not taken even Algebra II at high school. I didn’t even pass Geometry. I was really credit deficient. I had no AP classes. I barely graduated when I did. And part of the reason I graduated was because my mom was a teacher and kind of helped me out doing summer school and getting and making up credits. I was extremely credit deficient coming in. Took the remedial coursework at my community college the first semester. I joked during the keynote that tuition at the time was $150 per class, but to me that was like food for months. That seemed so unaffordable. $150 per class was unaffordable to me and was initially a deterrent.

07:21 Zach: But I slowly came to realize that education was a way out of working at that gas station and being a poor kid. It was a a way out in many ways. I eventually finished about 18 credits or 21 credits at the community college. Got some really good academic momentum going. I applied to the cheapest in state public school that I could. I wasn’t looking at academic programs, wasn’t looking at what I was going to do. I solely looked at the tuition rates and I said, what can I afford to do as a part time student working part time so I don’t take out any loans? I was very debt averse and one of those things from childhood was if you couldn’t pay for it in cash, you didn’t buy it. And the same attitude translated to college. If I could not pay for tuition in cash, if I could not afford to support myself, I was not going to go. There were a couple of times then throughout undergrad where I stopped out and took a semester off and saved money and came back the next semester. I remember professors telling me, I hope I see you in the spring because they knew I wasn’t going to be there in the fall because I was going to take a a gap semester and make some money.

08:44 Zach: After seven years, I eventually finished. I transferred a few times trying to save money. My parents lost a lot of money in the housing collapse in 2008 so I ended up stopping out again and going back to work. But I was very persistent and also, another lesson from childhood was no waste. Don’t waste anything. And I had already had 80 or 90 credits. I didn’t want to waste those. I wanted to finish. So that was something that really propelled me forward was this investment. I already knew how many sacrifices, how much money, how much time I had already put into this thing, and I really wanted to finish.

09:24 Zach: I eventually did finish. Got a job as a mentoring program coordinator and teacher. I paid for master’s degrees with cash. I didn’t take out any debt. Granted, it took me five years to earn those degrees, but I didn’t accrue any debt because I paid as I was being paid. I was never able to save any money. To this day I have not had a savings account over a thousand dollars. however, I don’t have any debt. I don’t have any credit card debt. I don’t have any college student loan debt, specifically because I paid as I went. Now, that is not going to sound like how a lot of students do it. A lot of students go right from high school to college. They take off those loans, they get that degree as soon as they can. I took a much different path, but in looking back on it and hearing some of the stories that I hear from some classmates, some of them are a little envious of how I did it. And granted there were lots of sacrifices along the way, but being 33 years old, being in a really great PhD program, almost to the finish line and not having any debt is something I’m really proud of.

10:37 Emily: It’s a truly incredible story. And I hope that anybody who can relate to your path in any way, either about growing up as you said, as a poor kid and having some of the mindsets that come with that, or taking this sort of longer term route to get to the PhD to get to where you are now. But by the way, being 33 and being almost done with your PhD doesn’t sound too far behind to me. I hope that they’ll be able to follow up with you if they have anything that they want to you know, talk with you further about or learn from you about.

Carrying Forward Financial from Growing Up Poor

11:08 Emily: What I wanted to ask you about now is some of the attitudes or mindsets that you have carried from your childhood that are, that you’re carrying forward. Whether they are mindsets that you think help you or whether there are mindsets that you think kind of hurt you. You’ve already mentioned a couple of them. One is you being extremely frugal. We’ll get into more of that in a few minutes. Being extremely frugal, not wanting to waste anything. The other one is debt aversion, which I learned at this conference that we both attended is a very common thing for people who grow up in lower income families is having debt aversion, which can be very helpful in some situations and can also, as you were just saying mean that it takes you more time to do certain things like finish your education. If you’re not taking out student loans, there are just trade offs. Are there any other mindsets that you can see from your childhood that are carrying over?

11:58 Zach: I’ll start with the positives. Having the work experience and the education has been so helpful in interpersonal communication and just professionalism. I waited tables and I stocked shelves at gas stations and grocery stores and that kind of manual labor. And working with other people, working your body, you’re really just kind of come to an understanding that there are a lot of different kinds of work out there, about the different kinds of people out there, and to respect all professions and be able to communicate with folks from lots of different professions. In a positive, feeling like I needed to avoid that debt and work my entire way through, I’ve got to meet a lot of people I would never get to meet. I’ve got to develop my communication skills to a degree where I feel as comfortable on a public bus or a shelter or a church or a tier one research institution. Talking with senior level administrators, same level of comfort because I’ve been around and lived amongst all those kinds of folks. So that has really, really helped me in terms of the negatives.

13:13 Zach: Growing up, never went out to eat, never vacationed. The longest vacation we actually ever took was a weekend trip to Minneapolis when I was, I think eight or nine years old and that was it. That was the only vacation. Never left my home town. My first plane ride was at age 30, coming and visiting UT Austin. We never took vacations, kind of with the idea that if you can’t pay for it in cash you are not going to pay for it. And then thrifting almost everything. In prepping for this podcast, I was trying to remember going school shopping and I don’t think I ever did. I don’t think we ever went school clothes shopping. It was either hand me downs from older kids in our neighborhood and cousins or it was going to St. Vincent DePaul and getting used clothes. And to this day when I need something, a chair, shorts, shoes — I just bought a really great pair of used shoes — I still go thrifting for a ton of stuff. That has stuck with me, for better or for worse. To this day, I also just seek out free stuff even if I don’t feel like I belong, like free food on campus. There are speaking events that I go to that if they fit in my schedule, I’ll go for the food and for the socializing, which is totally free sponsored by the university. Also though, with having a really kind of frugal mindset, I had still made some really bad choices. I still tend to eat spoiled food and expired food. It’s just a bad habit to break. It’s kind of the no waste. I buy in bulk as much as I can and then if it goes bad, I still eat it. I still, for better or worse, shop at Walmart. A lot of my classmates are hard on me for shopping at Walmart, but it was the only grocery store in my hometown. It is consistently the cheapest. They always have discounted poultry and meat and bakery. I always freeze things and can things when I can. Some people have thought that I’m kind of weird for doing that. Like buying day old bread and buying day old meat and freezing expired food to kind of stretch the eatability and the usability of the food.

15:42 Zach: That has actually been a little socially stigmatizing. I find myself kind of gravitating toward other folks who grew up poor and just understood that that loaf of bread should last you a week and a jar of peanut butter should last you two weeks. And those can be meals, every single meal if you need them to be. It’s also been a little stigmatizing being an Austin because there’s so much money in this town. There’s so much technology and a lot of folks do come from money and going out to eat twice a week. Living downtown in a $2,500 a month apartment isn’t anything out of the ordinary. It’s so foreign to me and it’s been hard to relate to some folks who grew up that way, especially if we’re in the same PhD program, because I just don’t have those experiences. I don’t feel good about doing those things. So there are some positives than, as you said, there’s obviously some negatives too.

16:43 Emily: Yeah. I’m so glad that you’re telling this story here. It’s really good for me to get your perspective because I did grow up very differently, and most people who I know grew up more middle-class like I did. Or maybe if they had a background more similar to yours, maybe they were sort of concealing that. It sounds like you don’t do that, at least not all the time.

Commercial

17:12 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Finances During Grad School

18:16 Emily: Okay. My question is around sort of the PhD program being kind of an equalizer in terms of income. Not that every PhD student or every PhD student at UT Austin makes the same amount of money, but more that you know, you’re kind of put on, let’s say within a factor of two, within your university, of one another. Now, some people coming into that situation are used to living a lifestyle that is higher than what they can afford on their PhD stipends. You, maybe, I don’t know, we’ll get into it, this may be have been a lifestyle increase to be able to have the stipend that you have, based on where you were coming from before that. But everyone has a choice to make when they hear the stipend that they’re receiving. They can choose to live within their means, at least semester by semester, sometimes funding changes, but they can choose to attempt to live within their means. Or they can choose to take on outside work or take out student loans perhaps and augment that stipend income with other sources of income or debt. I was wondering, maybe you could speak a little bit about what your finances are like right now — what is the stipend that you get at UT Austin and how did that compare is really briefly to cost of living? And whether or not you’re able to save on that or does anybody save on that?

19:35 Zach: In the college of education and most social sciences, the typical graduate research assistant or assistantship stipend is between $1,400 and $1,700 a month.

19:46 Emily: Not generous.

19:48 Zach: Not generous. And if you look around Austin, the typical one bedroom, entry-level, we’re talking no amenities, no garage, you might not have central air conditioning, you may have a box air conditioner, $1,500 a month, $1,700 a month, and if you want to live downtown and not have a car, it’s going to double and sometimes triple. It’s pretty ridiculous. The living stipend does not let you live comfortably whatsoever. And even really for my standard of living, you know, trying to find a one bedroom apartment on $1,500 a month, it’s incredibly hard to do and so incredible that I have had roommates my entire time here because there is no way that it would have been able to work. And in talking with other grad students in my program and, and in social work, and in psychology, sociology, linguistics, I don’t know anyone who lives on their own. They either live with family or they have roommates. Really in Austin there’s no other way to do it.

20:56 Zach: In terms of saving, there has been no saving. It has been avoiding debt. I’ve not had to take out any debt, but I’ve also not been able to save anything. And that’s common almost across the board. It’s just kind of four or five years of “I’m going to sacrifice earnings. I’m going to do my best to say at a debt, but I know I’m not going to save anything on the stipend”. Now at UT Austin, we do have healthcare paid for, so that is really great. It’s a great healthcare system. It’s really has really great coverage. There are other student benefits. We get to ride the bus for free. We get discounted food on campus. I mean there are lots of other perks of being a student. You are paid in other ways than just monetarily, but that money does not stretch far, that is for sure. In terms of being able to make ends meet and making enough money to be able to afford this town, I’ve picked up several other jobs, so I do work more than my assistantship for sure. I generally put in between 60 and 70 hour weeks. I also am an admissions reader. I teach courses part time at a nearby university. I edit dissertations part-time for about $75 an hour. And that has helped me make rent and pay for food some months. I also take automated surveys on Amazon Mechanical Turk during my bus rides. I’m a little bit car sick, so I can’t read a book and I can’t study, but I can be on my phone and take surveys. And through Amazon Mechanical Turk I can usually make $8 or $10 per commute, so I will drive my car to my park and ride for about 15 minutes. I’ll have about a 45 minute bus ride in, but in those 45 minutes I can make between $8 or $10 and that could be my food for a couple of days. I’ve been able to really stretch that out, but as you kind of alluded to debt aversion, but no savings whatsoever.

22:58 Emily: Yeah. Well I’d like to get now into more how you make it work. You mentioned what the stipend is at UT Austin, which I mean Austin is a rapidly increasing cost of living city, so I think what’s common in those cities is that the stipends that graduate students are paid and probably other people, the university, their salaries are not indexed at all to what the cost of living is increasing by. It’s a really tough situation to be in, especially as a graduate student, as you mentioned. Coming in and having maybe a five plus year path to the PhD, I mean in that five years, the cost of living can go up tens of percentage points, but your stipend is going to increase very little. So the situation that you sign on dotted line for when you start graduate school is not necessarily the situation that you’re in by the time you finish because your stipend is not going to be keeping up with cost of living. Just a word of warning there for prospective graduate students.

Frugal Strategies as a PhD

23:55 Emily: Now I would really love to talk about how how you make those ends meet. What are the frugal strategies? You mentioned extra income, which is fantastic, but on the side of being frugal, what are the strategies that you’re using that maybe you carried over from these mindsets from your childhood that you think are a little bit unusual? We already mentioned roommates. Okay. A lot of people have roommates. It’s kind of a necessity in most places. What are some other things that you’re doing that maybe other students wouldn’t think of? The idea behind this question is just so they can get some more ideas for other ways that they might be able to cut expenses. And also, with each tip or some of the tips, maybe say what you’re sacrificing to do things that way because there is always a trade off.

24:36 Zach: Absolutely. So, when I looked at moving here, I first and foremost looked at where the fastest public transportation was located and on which streets. In Austin, the big buses run on Congress and Lamar, so I knew I wanted to live off of those streets because I also understood that transportation was free with my student ID. First and foremost, before I even moved here, it was a very strategic move of I need to live on public transport and I also need to live near a grocery store because Austin is kind of known for having these food deserts and other major cities do as well, where there might be an entire swaths of the city where there is not a grocery store within walking distance or on public transport. Before I moved it was getting on transportation and getting on food and specifically living near a Walmart because I knew how much money I could save. Just being kind of a Walmart shopper, already having my budget from where I was moving from, I knew roughly how much I would spend so I could really budget my money really well.

25:48 Emily: With the first part, I just want to add that the selection, the location where you live determines so much about what you’re going to be spending during graduate school. You obviously are more highly aware, maybe then most students coming into graduate school. I really think this is something that other, you know, example that other people should follow.

26:05 Zach: And to your point about sacrifices, I do not live where the bars are or where the entertainment district is. I live miles and miles away from that. Right now, if I wanted to get to some place that had the live music venue, it’s a 12 mile bus ride. I do not live where all the action is in Austin and that’s a sacrifice. I lived on the bus line, I reserve myself to a 45 minute, one hour bus ride that was free. So those are are part of the tradeoffs. But I also went a step further specifically with Walmart and some thrift stores. And I asked, first of all, I would call the location and say to Walmart, when do you discount bakery? When do you discount meat? What day of the week do you put that out? And they’re happy to tell you like bakery and my Walmart is Mondays and the meat is Thursdays. So I know that I go Thursday morning, try to do grocery shopping on Monday and save a ton of money that way. And we’re talking, you know, ground beef that might be $12 is down to $4 and it’s the same amount of meat and you can still freeze it. So stuff like that.

27:14 Zach: Also thrift stores — when do you inventory and when do you give things away? A lot of folks who don’t shop at thrift stores don’t know that thrift stores throw out about 25% of the things that they get in donations and they tend to save those. So they’ll load everything in the back, they’ll sort through what is salable and then they’ll actually throw away everything that they don’t think is salable. A lot of good stuff is still in there though, so you ask thrift stores, down here it’s Goodwill. There’s lots of Goodwills and they are different in different places, but they’ll tell you when they’re going to chuck stuff and you can go on that day and not pay anything. You can go through and get good chairs, good tables. And especially in grad school, if you’re only going to be in a place for four to five years, a lot of that furniture can be just a rental, a four year rental. You go get a free set of kitchen table and chairs for free from a Goodwill, use them for a couple of years, and then give them away. Going the extra mile, especially knowing where I was going to live, but then the social services I was going to use — how could I maximize those? So that when I got here, it wasn’t a huge culture shock. I was doing a lot of same things back home that I had been doing here.

28:29 Emily: Yeah, I really love that combo, those first two tips of it’s not only where you shop, but when you shop. And I don’t think that second step when you shop is something that necessarily occurs to people right away. Thank you for that insight. What’s another tip that you have?

28:47 Zach: this is more along the academic side. in being a PhD student, there’s always pressure to publish and go to conferences and be an academic. But I have found that I am able to save quite a bit of money and do a lot of travel that I would never be able to do by one, when I do go to conferences, be extremely outgoing and friendly and —

29:11 Emily: I can attest to this, you are extremely outgoing and friendly. Yes.

29:14 Zach: And specifically try to meet people that are not from your state and those people become your friend network and those become people who have couches and floors that you can sleep on. So I have gone to a ton of conferences and not paid for a hotel or an Airbnb at all, just knowing someone in that spot. I’m going to Portland in the fall. I’m staying with someone. I’m going to San Francisco next spring. In San Francisco, the group hotel rates were $190 per night. I’m staying for free with a friend who I met at a conference and I have them return that favor. People who are coming to conferences in Austin, I always put them up, I keep a spare mattress, we throw it in the living room and they sleep on a mattress in the living room floor. That’s saving them hundreds and hundreds of dollars of conference hotels.

30:08 Zach: And then actually attending the conferences — I heard a lot of folks tell me they could never do this, but whenever I submit to a conference I will email the conference chair and try to arrange some sort of email conversation or phone call and ask to volunteer in exchange registration fees. So there are probably 25 conferences that I’ve gone to in state and out of state where I know when I will arrive and I’ll say, I can give you eight hours of my time before my presentation. I’ll help you at 5:00 AM and I’ll get the conference room set up. I’ll set up tables, I’ll put up projectors. TACAC is the admissions conference here in Texas and I have done check-in for the past three years in exchange for registration. I will happily volunteer a few hours of labor for a $200 registration fee that I don’t have to pay. And it also doubles as great networking, because they see a grad student who is eager to volunteer and help out and chip in, and I have never been turned away. I’ve never had anyone say, “no, we can’t support you in some way.” It’s not only saving the money in your personal everyday life, but in your academic life, there’s also some ways you can save some serious money and that money adds up over time. I’ve saved at this point over three years, thousands of dollars by doing those things.

31:34 Emily: Yeah, that’s a really incredible and powerful tip that I’m so glad you shared because I hear all the time, um, about how conference expenses are such a limiting factor in a grad student’s ability to network, ability to get their research out there and so forth and those fees and so forth are real barrier. Even if your department or your funding agency or whoever pays for part or all of it, it still is hard to have that money up front and what you’ve come to here is just a really brilliant solution, and I hope that a lot more people will start following your example. I mean the fact that you’ve never been turned down like when given that offer is just incredible. Well, I hope not too many people start doing it or else maybe you’ll have some competition for the volunteer jobs, but it’s a great, great idea and such an actual tip. Thank you.

Outtro

32:25 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How The Lucrative Artist Identifies and Reverses Negative Money Mindsets with His Clients

February 24, 2020 by Meryem Ok Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Brian Witkowski, a Doctor of Musical Arts and the founder of The Lucrative Artist. Brian serves as a business and leadership development coach for artists and teachers. Brian often sees money mindsets in his clients that don’t serve them well, and these mindsets are common among PhDs as well. If left unchecked, these mindsets have detrimental effects on our finances. Brian and Emily discuss how to reverse negative money mindsets and how entrepreneurship is often the most lucrative and satisfying career for a PhD with a transformed money mindset.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Brian: When you’re starting out just by yourself, you don’t have to do all that. It’s just a matter of figuring out what’s your actual service, and who are the people you’re going to serve, and then what kind of value exchange you’re going to be creating that you can reasonably get paid pretty well for it, from the right people, in the right way.

Intro

00:20 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode eight and today my guest is Dr. Brian Witkowski, a doctor of musical arts and the founder of The Lucrative Artist. PhDs, like many artists, tend to have certain money mindsets that do not serve them well, such as a scarcity mindset. Brian and I discuss how negative money mindsets can detrimentally affect our finances and how to reverse them. For many PhDs, and Brian’s clients, the most lucrative and satisfying career path forward might be through entrepreneurship. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Brian Witkowski.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:06 Emily: I am delighted to have on the podcast today Dr. Brian Witkowski, and we’re going to be talking about mindset work and entrepreneurship and other fascinating topics like that. So, I’m really looking forward to this conversation and learning a lot from Brian. Brian, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for our audience?

01:23 Brian: Yeah, so I’m originally from Michigan. My grandparents immigrated from Poland. My dad grew up in a very poor area of Detroit and kind of aspired to a much higher middle-class life and worked his way up and eventually became a professor and then raised me to someday want to be a professor, too. Obviously, the world is a lot different today than it was for the generation back then. You know, I’ve had to explore how else, where I can take my teaching and my work and what I really want to do. And so, when that tenure track job, after I finished my doctorate eight years ago, didn’t quite come up, I started exploring other opportunities. I started to really think what else is not being taught that we all could be taught and how can I better serve people. So, I started studying more about business and finance and looking to see where we can help people. Especially as myself, I have a doctor of musical arts degree, and especially in music and the arts, we know nothing about finance or financial literacy.

02:13 Brian: There’s so much to be learned and needs to be learned. So, you not only can just, you know, understand about money and know how to conduct yourself in life. And because we can’t just expect those few jobs we’re trained for, we have to be entrepreneurs, we have to come up with multiple streams of income, and come up with other opportunities and open our minds up to creating new opportunities as opposed to competing for just a few things that less than 1% actually end up having. So, basically, entrepreneurship is kind of the new golden age for higher education in some ways, is what I like to say. Because we can take our expertise and leverage it in new ways and recreate different learning opportunities, not just for the people in the college classes but for the lifelong learners. So, that’s kind of where I’ve taken my teaching nowadays.

Unhealthy Money Mindsets

02:56 Emily: Oh, that’s fantastic. I’m so excited to dive more into all of that, and I’m really excited to have you on as a guest because a lot of my audience, I think, is currently still in PhD training as graduate students or postdocs or maybe closely following that. They may still be competing for that tenure-track job or not sure what they’re going to do if it doesn’t work out. And so I’m really glad to have you on as someone who’s several years further down that line and has a lot more life experience and career experience in that way. One of the things that we said that we would talk about during this interview was money mindset. Because I think the people who you work with through The Lucrative Artist and also the people who I see through Personal Finance for PhDs have some troubling mindsets around money. So, can you talk a little bit more about the mindsets that you see your clients that also maybe overlap with mine? The money mindsets that they have that don’t serve them very well?

03:48 Brian: In some ways, one thing that doesn’t serve a lot of people is just that mentality that we don’t have enough and there’s never enough there. And we always think that it’s a scarcity mindset complex that so many of us have. Even my own father did, even though his adulthood was phenomenally better than his childhood, he was still struggling financially as a professor just putting it all together. There’s a book called Rich Dad, Poor Dad* by Robert Kiyosaki. More or less, he talks about how his poor dad actually worked his way up in higher education and became the administrator in the state of Hawaii, and so forth. Back in the fifties and sixties, when his “poor dad” was his friend’s dad who didn’t have any college training and just focused on acquiring real estate and thinking about owning a business and trying to earn money that way. And so, he more or less points out how we’re not taught about how to actually earn money other than to expect the job. So, part of the mindset is having your mind open to the possibilities of where you can create new income opportunities and new sources of revenue, and so forth, for your personal life using all you have to offer.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

04:52 Emily: Yeah, I can definitely see how the scarcity mindset–if you’re thinking only that, again, that tenure-track job is the only one for you and the only thing that’s worth doing after after a doctorate–there is scarcity in terms of that actual career path. That’s not imagined. That’s perfectly real. But I guess the mindset that doesn’t serve you is thinking of course that that’s the only or the best option for you following finishing your higher education. So, to think a little bit more broadly about your career track would be, I guess, the way to combat that scarcity mindset. Any other kinds of mindsets that you see in those populations?

Aim High: Raise Your Anchor Point

05:30 Brian: The only thing is, I guess we’ve focused so much like on student loans and the cost of higher education. It’s like we let the four-figure, accruing interest, to get in the way of thinking how we could maybe use that same energy toward, “How can I create maybe six figures of income or more later on?” We don’t open our minds up to the possibility of earning way more than what certain salaries we’re used to or what our parents or colleagues are earning. In a lot of different ways, if we package our expertise and services in the right way, you can find that clientele or that other startup, that kind of business that can easily make you enough money to more than pay off your debt and then some. And sometimes we get so bogged down with getting depressed over having a big student loan sum and we don’t realize that yes, it’s not that great, but it’s better than some other forms of debt that are out there.

06:19 Emily: Yeah. So, I think that’s like having an anchor point, right? So, like you in your mind around the amount of money you can make, you have anchor points, whether it’s what you were earning as a graduate student, if you had a stipend or as a postdoc or what you expect to earn as a faculty member or another kind of professional. Or, like you were just saying, the balance of student loan debt that you have or maybe the living expenses that you have to cover each month. These are anchor points that float around in your mind as, “Okay, I need to make this much money.” But really there’s no limit to that. Like, why are you anchoring yourself there? Go ahead and anchor yourself at 10 times that amount or a hundred times that amount, maybe.

06:55 Brian: Yeah, definitely. And there’s one interesting exercise that I sometimes give the clients to consider. Okay, what are you earning right now? What would you have to become to suddenly earn double that? Like who are some role models out there? Because there’s always going to be somebody out there we can imagine who’s already making more than what you’re making that you could easily–sometimes not even actually do a whole lot more, but just adjust the way you’re presenting yourself and to the right audience, and so forth. And then figure out how we can double that from there. If all else fails, at the end of this exercise, people usually say they’re going to be Oprah or Tony Robbins or something, which is great. You’ve got to not be afraid to think big like that.

07:32 Brian: Too often we think small, we don’t think we can be these celebrities and these great leaders, but anyone can really grow themselves to be more than just what they thought they could. And sometimes we’re not taught enough of that in our school. My father taught leadership courses when he was a professor. So, those are classes where I’ve kind of avoided anything that he taught when I was in school. Hence, I’ve got a doctor of musical arts degree. His degree was in criminal justice. And so, I wanted to make sure I wasn’t just recreating everything I absorbed by osmosis as a child. I guess you could say it was part of my motivation to make sure I picked a very different degree program. But there’s so many of these things that my father taught in his classes that are not taught to people in the arts and so many other fields as far as management skills, how to interact with people, and what kind of personal growth is out there. We’re too conditioned to just do the exact training for the exact skill to get specific sets of jobs and not necessarily create the jobs instead.

Challenges in a Culture of Volunteerism

08:29 Emily: Mmm, yeah. Great point. So, anything else on your observations around detrimental money mindsets and then how they translate to ill effects in our finances?

08:42 Brian: Yeah, I think partly the scarcity mindset that sometimes starts with just the job market and the opportunities for earning money. Another problem is, especially in the arts and education fields, it’s almost like there’s a nonprofit aspect to it or more if you’re working for a religious institution or, in my case as a professional singer, getting paid to sing in churches and so forth. There’s that guilt trip kind of situation where some people who are cutting the checks kind of make you think you shouldn’t be earning as much as what you should be. And there are other situations too where it’s kind of like the negotiation turns into a coerced charitable contribution in some ways, but not in one in which you can actually get a tax deduction for your time in a concrete kind of way. So, it’s another situation we have to deal with, whether we’re in the arts or in education. There’s that mindset, “Wait, I’m not supposed to get paid this much. I’m supposed to do it for the children and do it for God or whoever, whatever the cause is, basically.” So, that kind of keeps people from realizing their potential. And then I try to tell people to be in a position where you can actually tithe or donate that 10% back as we all ideally should later in life.

09:49 Emily: Yeah, I agree to great, great extent. There’s this, I guess I call it kind of a toxic culture of like compulsory volunteerism in academia and in other similar fields. Exactly as you were saying. When the high level institution has some kind of nonprofit-like status that somehow translates to, “We don’t pay people what they’re worth or we don’t pay people to do work for us. We expect a degree of volunteerism.” I encounter this myself sometimes with institutions who want me to work without pay or with much less pay than I’m asking for. They can kind of use that, “Okay, well we’re a nonprofit,” as like an argument, somehow. But it’s just something that it’s hard to combat because as you said, when you’re sort of indoctrinated into that culture, you think, “Yes, well I’m supposed to be giving back. I’m supposed to be doing this for X, Y, Z. What about the people who won’t benefit from receiving my talents if I don’t take this opportunity?” But at the end of the day, you have to feed yourself, right?

Finding Balance in Value Exchange

10:54 Brian: Yeah. And that’s the other thing. I also tell people that, at the very least, it’s a two-way street. How can they serve me in return if there’s an imbalance in the actual value of exchange that’s taking place? At the very least, maybe that institution could give you a referral for another service you’re providing, or they might allow you to advertise something else. Or, like I tell people who are performing artists, maybe they can sell CDs or trade their mailing lists. There are other ways to at least get some kind of fair exchange of value if you open your mind to those things. I try to help people think about those things and make that happen so that at least if they’re not getting necessarily the actual money, maybe they’re getting a leisurely vacation out of it if it’s a traveling musical gig or something like that. They’re getting something that makes it still worth their while to otherwise feel like they’re volunteering their time.

11:41 Emily: Yeah. Something that can be mutually beneficial instead of just beneficial going one direction. Okay. So let’s say, you know, someone in our audience has identified, “Okay, well I do have that scarcity mindset,” or “Yeah, my anchor point is 10 times lower than it should be,” or what have you. Any of these money mindsets we’ve been talking about. How do you actually go about changing a money mindset that doesn’t serve you well once you’ve identified it?

Changing Your Money Mindset: Self-Talk

12:05 Brian: For me and for people who I work with, sometimes I give meditative exercises. You have to think positively. Positive manifestation-type statements, saying to yourself, “Your bank account may be empty,” but rather than say it’s empty, say, “It’s wide open and ready to receive.” It sounds silly, but you have got to think, “Okay, the money is going to come to me eventually.” You can’t think that you’re never going to get it. It’s just a matter of figuring out the right way to find the right people willing to give you that money, basically, for when you willingly deserve it and earn it.

12:37 Emily: So, it’s kind of about self-talk, then, I guess is what you’re saying? Like it’s about, “Okay, I’ve identified my bank account is empty. Oh, it’s always going to stay empty.” That’s the toxic mindset.

12:48 Brian: So, it’s reinforcing that negative stuff. And before you know it, you’re staying on the floor at the bottom and not working your way up. And then another thing is, there’s the song “Love is in the Air,” but also you could say money is in the air, too. The way the global economy works, the way money compounds everywhere, there’s always going to be enough. You know, sometimes we think, “If I take this job then suddenly somebody else is not going to have any money,” and that’s not how the world works, actually. When we keep getting all that we’re supposed to earn, then there’s more to give around and more to grow the pie.

13:22 Emily: Mhm, yeah. So, it’s not like a fixed pool of money, right, that we all are trying to grab a little bit of a piece of, it’s about growing the entire economy–the entire pie for everyone. Is that what you’re saying?

13:34 Brian: Yeah, exactly.

13:34 Emily: Yeah, so we aren’t thinking, “Me gaining something is someone else losing something.” That’s not how it is.

13:40 Brian: Yup.

13:41 Emily: Yeah, great.

13:42 Brian: It’s how the markets work. If you notice, if you had invested a dollar a hundred years ago, it would probably be who knows how much now. It’s partly a result of that.

13:51 Emily: Mhm. Yeah. Anything else that we can do to change the money mindset aside from turning things in a more positive way and reinforcing that by self-talk?

Open Your Mind to New Revenue Streams

14:02 Brian: The other way probably: be open to thinking of new ways to earn, and be open to new revenue streams. Don’t be afraid to think outside the box as opposed to how you can make a living. Because we all get so caught up trying to apply for the exact same jobs and thinking these are the only ways to earn. There are so many different audiences out there and clientele that we could actually be serving that we don’t even think about. Especially for myself. People, my colleagues mostly, aspire to teach students who are college students and aspiring professional singers. And it’s kind of like we subconsciously only focus on the clientele that is like ourselves. And we don’t realize there’s another whole clientele out there that might be willing to pay way more, or you could actually set up scalable situations where you could easily earn way than you otherwise are used to earning. So, you’ve got to let go of that in one direction and think 360 every way around you, there’s something more you could probably do.

15:00 Emily: Yeah, I think this kind of relates. For people who are still in academia, they might not feel very special because everyone they’re surrounded by also has crazy advanced degrees. Very smart, very talented, very trained in a similar way. But if you can turn and look outside of that immediate environment like you’re talking about, you can see that there are many, many other opportunities to serve different groups of people or to leverage your skills in a different kind of way. And once you do step outside the ivory tower, your skills are going to be regarded in a way that you’re not used to. Right? They’re going to be much more highly looked upon because you are special. There’s only like 2% of the population or less or something that has doctoral level degrees. So, it’s not actually that common if you find the right group to serve. So, this translates really well once you’ve opened your mind to these other types of clients and other types of work that you might be able to do. At that point, why is self-employment more attractive than a job? Or why does self-employment serve you better with a different kind of money mindset than a job would?

You Can Be Self-Employed and Still Have a Job

16:07 Brian: It’s not necessarily mutually exclusive from having a job. And I think sometimes people get caught up thinking they have to quit their job and suddenly be a sole business owner right away. Not necessarily, although sometimes there are situations where you just need to get out of a toxic environment that doesn’t pay you enough. Then you easily find that one client and you can easily–or a few clients–you can suddenly afford to just say farewell to the job that wasn’t really serving you. But I think when you’re stuck in a job, you’re stuck with a cap on your income. Whereas if you start a business, you could think owning your own business, being self-employed, you’re open to more possibilities and there’s no limit necessarily. So, it’s like you’re removing an artificial cap and you’re also giving yourself more freedom once you get it going, you find the right clientele to serve, and so forth.

16:51 Emily: Yeah, I think this goes back exactly to that Rich Dad, Poor Dad book or idea that you were talking about earlier. The poor dad, right, has a job and his income is, as you were just saying, capped and scaled by the employer. It’s sort of out of his hands, right? But the rich dad is an entrepreneur and–well, Robert Kiyosaki’s really into real estate, so lots of different ways to be an entrepreneur–and in that case, the income streams are unlimited. And each income stream itself is unlimited in how much money you can actually bring in. So, there’s a downside to that, but there’s a big, big, big upside too, if you choose to walk away from a job. Which, like you said, it doesn’t have to be all or nothing. So, some people in my audience, again, are still in training. Self-employment is something that they can do on the side while they’re still in graduate school, while they’re still in a postdoc for now, as long as it’s permitted by their visa and their job and everything. But it’s something you can dip your toe into and see how it’s going, and you don’t have to just take the leap, like you said, right away.

17:53 Brian: Yeah, definitely.

Commercial

17:58 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us, and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns, from free articles and videos to paid at-your-own-pace workshops to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax. That’s P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now, back to the interview.

Pay Attention to What is Not Being Taught

19:01 Brian: The great thing is, while you’re still in grad school, it’s your perfect opportunity to realize what is everybody doing the same? Where do you feel like you’re literally just in “the Matrix,” and what’s not being done? I stress to people that it’s the perfect time to really observe and reflect and take notes for what’s going on and what’s not being taught that still needs to be taught in real life. Because there’s just so much of that that still needs to be taught. Whether it’s with finances or just personal development or other aspects of just knowing how to live. Too many aspects of our degrees are just kind of geared to train us for specific jobs but not for creating jobs. So, one strategy is to just observe what’s not being taught. And then how could you actually teach that? I like to joke with people who are getting their terminal degrees, their PhDs, that they could actually create something in which those same people who may not hire you for a faculty job might actually hire you to do their professional development. Because you never know. That fresh perspective of being young, just finished your degree, and offering a different viewpoint is something that’s going to be valuable to them.

20:07 Emily: You’re exactly describing my own journey into Personal Finance for PhDs, because what was going on for me in graduate school was, I was learning about personal finance because I had to apply it in my own life, or felt that I had to, right? So, I was learning how to apply it and then over some time sort of looking at the way my university was or was not supporting that growth and that journey. And I should say that Duke, which is where I did my PhD, actually does a great job with personal finance in comparison to many, many other institutions. But even so, I could see that there was more that could be done there. And that’s exactly how I stepped into my business was seeing, “Okay, well no one is teaching personal finance from the perspective of a graduate student or a postdoc or a PhD. They’re teaching personal finance from the perspective of a CPA or a financial advisor who deals with very, very wealthy clients.” And this is just completely foreign to the people that I was coming out of. And so, I decided to turn around, right? And teach the people who are coming up behind me those principles. So, exactly what you described. And as you said, I never applied for jobs, universities, or faculty positions, but I am now hired by plenty of universities to do professional development in this area. So, it’s totally, totally, exactly what you said.

Different Business Models for PhDs

21:22 Emily: So, what are the different business models that you can see with PhDs or other people with doctorates that are successful, that are easy for them to access, given the skills they’ve been learning throughout their higher education?

21:35 Brian: Yeah. One thing is just to simply think, “What kind of professional development services could I offer? Are there businesses, are there organizations or clients where what I have to offer with my knowledge and expertise can be valuable to them?” And sometimes it’s not necessarily just regurgitating the same content, but how can you repackage it in a way that is more meaningful to them. Sometimes, with my work, I stress that you can kind of integrate some personal development, leadership growth, using your content as the vehicle, so that people are thinking not just that they’re learning more about a certain thing about history, but they’re realizing how their own life embodies that same historical thing you’re trying to reinforce. Find something like that.

22:19 Brian: It personalizes it more and really fits the clientele or the audience that you’re serving. So, there’s that. Sometimes you can do something as simple as different kinds of coaching, whether it’s life coaching, business coaching. There are so many forms of coaching out there that still people need to hire people. That’s not enough just to go about life waiting for the job or expecting your business to take off. We always need more people to help us in different ways to give us different perspectives, different viewpoints to push us in different ways. In the arts, even though I have my degrees, I still take voice lessons. My voice is an evolving instrument. I’m always learning how to use it in different ways. And the older I get, the different kind of repertoire I suddenly get to sing. So, it’s a never ending thing. And there are other aspects of life where it’s the same way. So, people with PhDs and other graduate degrees, just that background alone gives credibility with certain types of audience members.

Self-Employed PhD and Beyond the Professoriate

23:11 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. So, I’m part of a community called Self-Employed PhD, which is underneath the Beyond the Professoriate umbrella program. And so, what Jen Polk and Maren Wood do, who run that program, is they are career coaches for PhDs. And there are many other people who have stepped into the same area. Seeing again like we were just talking about that a lot of universities don’t prepare PhDs well for knowing the possibilities for their careers outside of academia or being prepared to actually apply for those jobs or network for those jobs or get those jobs. Many people have decided to become career coaches in this area because there is a lack of support from many universities in that area. So, exactly what you’re just saying. Any other business models that you see as very accessible for this audience?

Think Big, Think Lifelong Learning

23:56 Brian: Sometimes it can just be simply, create your own school. It might even rival your university. Don’t be afraid to think big like that. Or something else to that effect. Some kind of supplementary, after-school program for elementary kids or high school. Really any age group. I read an article that there is going to be an enrollment crash in higher education soon where suddenly, because there’s going to be way more retirees than young people, not as many young people enrolling in college. So, more job cuts and other drama might be around the corner. But at the same time, we have a retirement population that is just growing, and they’re bored. There are ways to serve them. So, rather than think higher education, think lifelong learning or higher learning and other things you can offer that can serve any kind of population.

24:45 Emily: Hmm. Yeah. If what you really wanted to do when you were pursuing that faculty position was teach–I mean there are so many different audiences and different ways that you can do that. Even within the subject matter that you were highly trained in, if you want to stay in that area.

24:59 Brian: If you’re willing to leave the country, there are 7.6 billion people in the world. There’s going to be somebody out there who will pay you to teach them something.

25:06 Emily: Yeah. Or work online, and have access to everybody in the world. Yeah. Any other business models you want to add to that list?

Other Business/Teaching Models

25:14 Brian: Yeah, one-on-one coaching, teaching, offering professional development seminars or other workshops, and so forth, using your expertise. Also, you don’t necessarily have to not teach the same students you’re expected to teach that you went through school. You just need to be offering them something that’s different from what they’re used to. So, that’s why I also, with my own business, I help people specifically in the arts figure out how can I do this likewise? How can I create something different and empower myself to have control over my career and do more of the things I actually authentically want to do? Because one thing, especially in the arts, there’s a lot of interesting toxicity that goes on when it comes to career expectations. Especially with professional singers. We have a lot of people who started their careers in the last century and sometimes they just went about teaching as if that last century way of life was still going about and everybody could easily have the same career they had. Or at least that’s how they’d go about, conduct themselves, and just kind of otherwise disregard your actual career and what you’d be doing.

26:16 Brian: You have to really be more of an entrepreneur nowadays as a performing artist if you’re not going to suddenly get some of those few jobs that are still out there. So, position yourself to help those same people who are in your field, not getting the help they probably should have had.

26:29 Emily: Mhm. Yeah. And you mentioning actually using the specific skill you’re trained in, singing. But I’m thinking about–so I have a colleague named Chris Cloney who has a business doing research. He has an independent research company, specifically translating the research that he did as a PhD student into basically another way of delivering it to the world. So, we’ve talked about teaching and coaching and speaking and so forth, which is what you and I do. But there are other ways to translate even more precisely what you were doing in graduate school into the entrepreneurial sphere instead of just going after a job. So, you brought up what you’re doing through The Lucrative Artist. I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about that. Maybe a couple of minutes on how you came to this point. We’ve already heard some of that journey, and then what you do for clients right now.

Brian’s Work with The Lucrative Artist

27:16 Brian: Yeah. So, what I do is I help clients literally figure it out. Sometimes, the biggest barrier that we need to break through is figure out what else we can do other than those few jobs we were conditioned to expect to get. And so I help people think, “Okay, how can I assess all your skills and your strengths, your weaknesses? What’s something that you can synthesize that can actually become a viable product or service that you could give to other people? And you’re more or less in a position where you’re not having to worry about competing against other people and you’re serving the audience that really wants you to serve them and so forth?” And so helping people really package that together. We do authenticity training where we think, “What is it we really, truly want to do?”

27:57 Brian: Like, “What is your purpose? What really drove you to want to teach? And how can you get more to that?” Like for me, it wasn’t really necessarily about the actual content, but it’s about helping people really actually change their lives. Like I’ve witnessed my father as a child, growing up. He did the same thing with his students, seeing people who were, likewise like him, grew up really poor, had no idea what they’d be doing later in life. Then finally they realized, “Oh, I can learn this. I can do this.” And suddenly they have great jobs or they have their own businesses, they’re making a great living, and so forth. So, helping people realize there is another way out there, and anyone’s capable of doing it. And then basically once people figure out what ideal business would be for them, what kind of service they’d be providing–sometimes there’s not a specific service, it’s like a bunch of different services related to themselves through their art form. So, for people in singing, for example, sometimes it’s teaching lessons, sometimes it’s teaching speaking lessons, presentation lessons, helping people patch together other skills related to their singing. So, they’re not just performing, but they’re also providing expertise and educating the public more about the works to bring awareness and you know, make that same connection between a certain classical work and you know, what its audience is going through right now.

Combat Limiting Beliefs and Imposter Syndrome

29:12 Emily: That sounds like, based on what we were kind of talking about earlier, you help people identify the limiting beliefs they have, the mindsets they have around their career, for example, and then coach them in how to combat that within themselves. I guess I just think about this as related to imposter syndrome, right? There’s nothing that we are trained for to do outside of academia. All we can do is teach. And if we can’t get that job, we’re like worthless, right? That’s a horrible thing to think about yourself. But I think it’s indoctrinated into so many of us who go through academia to have that imposter syndrome that “I’m not worthy of another kind of job. I’m not worthy of being able to start a business. I don’t have translatable skills into these other areas.” And so, once people see, “Okay, well this is what’s holding me back. I’m going to engage Brian,” you help them turn those mindsets around in a very practical way. Because you can say, “No, here is what you need to be telling yourself instead of what you have been thinking.” And then they do the work, right? To actually uproot those mindsets.

30:14 Brian: Yeah. And then once they get through there, once they realize what they want to do, then I coach them through step-by-step, “What can I do to actually make a viable business take off the ground.” And it’s not always necessarily too scary or confusing. Some people, you tell them you’re helping them grow a business, they want to see all these weird numbers and other things. And when you’re starting now just by yourself, you don’t have to do all that. It’s just a matter of figuring out what’s your actual service and who are the people you’re going to serve and then what kind of value exchange you’re going to be creating that you can reasonably get paid pretty well for from the right people in the right way. And it’s a matter of figuring out how you can package that and who you’d be serving.

Growing a Business is a Gradual Process

30:52 Emily: Yeah. I think some people when they hear like starting a business, they think about the startup world and where you have to have a highly refined business plan you’re pitching to investors and so forth. And it is really important to have this high degree of models and understanding of what you’re going to be doing in that world. But just to dip your toe into self-employment is much, much, less than that. You don’t have to do all that. You have to try out some things, see what people aren’t going to pay you for it, see what you like to do. It’s a lot of experimentation at the beginning and it’s not really high stakes.

31:21 Brian: Yeah, exactly. I love helping people, walk them through that and realize, “Oh, I can do this.” And yes, there’s actually a demand. One interesting exercise to really take people through is just called hot or not. What are some ideas that can work, and we talk them out. And then we also might contact some other people and see what they think about that if it’s a totally new thing that they hadn’t heard of before. And just a matter of, you need an opportunity to just test the waters and you openly be in a safe environment where you can express ideas without somebody thinking you’re stupid or whatever. There’s no stupid idea. There’s, you know, millions of ideas everywhere. And it’s a matter of figuring out how to piece together to create something viable as far as the business goes.

Origin of The Lucrative Artist

32:00 Emily: Mhm. Yeah, that gives me a good idea of what your services are. But I wanted to ask you about your name, The Lucrative Artist, which is very provocative. So, can you tell us a little bit how you came to that?

32:09 Brian: It’s fascinating. It’s a provocative word. It’s a word they say all the time on CNBC and all the other finance channel for other businesses. But for some reason we’re conditioned to think we have to starve as artists. And it’s not necessarily the case. So, I try and help people realize, “No, actually if you’re getting paid what you deserve and what you should be, you’re actually in a position to make even higher quality art and you’re serving people even better.” So, it’s actually an empowering mindset that better serves them later on.

32:39 Emily: Yeah, I love that. Oh my gosh. Well, where can people find you?

32:42 Brian: Well, my website, thelucrativeartist.com, the lucrative artist, three words there, .com or there’s facebook.com/thelucrativeartist where I’m active on a Facebook page. I also have a Twitter and an Instagram where I try to be accessible to as many people as possible through all those platforms, wherever the world’s taken me. There’s a Self-Employment in the Arts conference taking place in Chicago in February that I’ll be presenting at. And also some universities here and there. I’ll be doing some presentations and masterclasses and so forth. So, I try to be all-around.

Best Advice for an Early-Career PhD

33:13 Emily: Sounds awesome. So, final question. This is a standard one that I ask all my guests, which is what is your best advice for another early-career PhD or another early-career doctor? And this could be something related to what we’ve talked about today or it could be completely other.

33:30 Brian: Yeah, I think as far as the best advice, always keep a mind open to creating new sources of income and having multiple sources of income coming in. And think of ways you could create some passive income for yourself as well as the active income. And then, when you’re in your PhD, look and see what everybody else is doing and then think, “What is everybody not doing they should be doing?” And realize that might be a gold mine of a business opportunity just waiting to happen. So, just to open your mind up to that possibility and not being afraid to go for it.

34:03 Emily: Thank you so much, Brian. Thank you so much for the interview. I’ve learned a lot. I hope the audience has as well.

34:07 Brian: I really appreciate it.

Outtro

34:07 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode. And remember, you don’t have to have PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive, and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Why Mental Health Is Worth Investing In (with PhD Balance Founder Susanna Harris)

February 17, 2020 by Lourdes Bobbio Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Susanna Harris, a PhD student at the University of North Carolina and the founder of PhD Balance (formerly PhDepression). Susanna is an outspoken advocate for the mental health of PhDs. However, bolstering mental health can take up-front resources, such as time, money, and energy. Susanna argues that mental health is worth investing in, particularly in your early 20s and while you’re affiliated with a university. Susanna and Emily discuss low- and no-cost methods to improve mental health.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Find Susanna Harris on Twitter or Instagram
Find PhD Balance online, on Twitter, and on Instagram
This PhD Healed Her Scarcity Money Mindset Using a Goal-Setting Framework (Part 2)
How This Graduate Student Rejects the Academic Culture of Being Broke
How to Combat the Negative Financial Attitudes We Learned in Academia and in Childhood
Personal Finance for PhDs: Tax Center
Personal Finance for PhDs: Podcast Hub
Personal Finance for PhDs: Subscribe to the mailing list

Teaser

00:00 Susanna: The point of investing time, money, resources into your mental health is one, if you don’t, it’s not going to get better. I think that there is this really dangerous mentality around grad school that it’s like, “Okay, I’m going to do grad school and then when it’s done I’m going to start my life” and that for some reason that the moment you graduate, everything’s going to get a lot easier and there’s a lot less stress and you’re going to be making way more money and you’re going to feel like an adult. And not surprisingly, when I talk to people who’ve been out of their PhD for six months they’re sort of still reeling from it.

Introduction

00:43 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode seven, and today my guest is Susanna Harris, a PhD student at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the founder of PhD Balance. Susanna is an outspoken advocate for the mental health of PhDs. However, bolstering your mental health can take upfront resources such as time, money, and energy. Susanna makes the case for why mental health is worth investing in particularly in your early twenties and while you’re affiliated with the university. We discuss ways you can improve your mental health even if you don’t have much or any money to put towards it. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Susanna Harris.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:34 Emily: It is my pleasure today to have Susanna Harris on the podcast. She is the founder of PhD Balance and we’re going to be talking about a really exciting and a very relevant subject matter, which is mental health. So Susanna, for those in the audience who don’t already know you, will you please introduce yourself?

01:48 Susanna: Sure thing. Well, first of all, Emily, thank you for inviting me. At first when you asked for me to be on, I was like, I don’t know what my work has to do with finances and it’s definitely not something I’ve gotten nailed down. I started PhD Balance about a year and a half ago to really just start talking about mental illness in graduate school. I myself am a, we’ll say a final year PhD student in microbiology, and what I really wanted to do is just start talking about mental illness because I’m someone with depression and anxiety and working on a PhD. And throughout this process of building that community, I’ve learned a lot of really important things, one of which is how important it is to get mental health care and how it can be really tricky for people to find space in their finances to do that.

02:44 Emily: Yeah, that’s exactly how we’ll narrow this very vast subject down today, the crossover point between the two of us. So tell us a little bit more about this origin story of PhD balance because I understand there’s even a name change involved.

02:56 Susanna: Yeah. I think that was one of the most difficult decisions for me. So when originally this started, it was just called PhDepression. Again, because I was a PhD student with depression, I thought maybe I would put up an Instagram post and find a couple other people who’d be interested in joining. The whole point was to share a photo, like you would put up on Instagram or you know, the image that we put out to academia. And then in the text share a more personal story about your own dealing with mental illness or mental health struggles while going through academia. And this all came about actually because about a month before — so PhDepression started in March of 2018 — about a month before this Nature Biotech paper came out showing about 40% of graduate students were dealing with anxiety or depression or the symptoms of them at any given time, and I saw that and it was just like, “Oh, I kind of had no idea. I thought I was really alone in this.” And I looked around, I was in a conference of about 200 people and I thought, “there’s no way that five other people understand.” And I think that that’s where it sort of clicked of we get these numbers, but it doesn’t really mean anything unless we can look around and find other people who are going to understand us, who are going to listen to us, not judge us, and then really importantly, be able to give us the resources that we need when we need them.

04:19 Susanna: Probably about a year into it, well six months in, I ended up turning it into a business and that was mostly for liability reasons. It’s a sensitive topic to talk about mental illness. At that time I had a small team of people working with me and I wanted to make sure that if anything should happen, if we ever faced anything legal that we just didn’t know about, that that responsibility would fall on my shoulders. And of course, once you have a business, then people ask you to kind of run it as a business and figure out money. As we were doing that, trying to think of what it’s going to be a sustainable financial model for what we do, we realized that changing to PhD Balance, one people could pronounce it easier, which is always a benefit.

Susanna: Two, it really became much more about general mental health, and that idea that even if you’re not dealing with a chronic mental illness, even if in general, your mental health is great, there’s going to be times where you do become imbalanced. You do kind of tip over to one side and need to right yourself. And so the idea of this PhD Balance is to acknowledge that there are those tipping points that different people have their kind of center at different places, but that the goal is to find that place where you’re okay. And I like to tell people, I think about it balance in terms of yoga, where the purpose of balancing in yoga is not to be perfect. And in fact, if you’re in a position where you’re absolutely perfect and it’s no challenge, you’re not really pushing yourself. Maybe that’s where you need to be that day, but you’re through yoga trying to find out more about yourself, learning where your limits are, understanding that your limits are different than somebody else’s. And the goal is not, again, to be perfect, but rather to learn how to balance and learn how to respect those boundaries of yours. We thought PhD Balance was a good switch to encapsulate all of that.

06:17 Emily: Yeah. What I’m getting from what you’re describing is a dynamic balance, right? And not a static balance. I think everyone likes the term balance, but I like it too, and one of the reasons is really what we’ll be talking about during this interview is that it’s not actually that mental health is one’s only concern, right? You would not sacrifice everything else in your life to have whatever perfect mental health might mean because this does impact other areas of your life such as finances, such as time management, such as work-life balance, other areas. It is about finding a balance between what your needs are and your resources are in one area versus another, and it does have to be dynamic over time. Anyway, we’ll be diving into more of that for the rest of this interview.

Intersection of Finances and Mental Health

06:59 Emily: Let’s talk about kind of, again that intersection between the finances and the mental health. When you’re experiencing financial stress, financial insecurity, as many PhDs do, especially during the graduate student or postdoc period, what effects can that have on mental health?

07:17 Susanna: I think there’s a few kind of separate but overlapping ways that that can affect your mental health. One is just like you said, that added stress. Chronic stress, so stress that lasts over weeks instead of let’s say a day. You know, there’s some stress that’s good. I think that whether it’s in work or even in finances to go, “Ooh, well this is a crunch time,” that’s not necessarily bad, but rather to have it constantly ticking in the back of your mind, that can take a toll on everything else. Oftentimes when we’re stressed about finances, it’s not just that we want to get to a certain goal, but rather that we’re afraid of falling into something else. Especially as people who in general are not making a lot of money, or are making no money, or paying money, it’s not so much always about like, “Oh, how can I best invest my extra money?” It’s rather, okay, how do I get by with my rent and my food and you know, any dependents I might have. And so just that stress and that background knowledge that you might be dealing with those things, that on its own is very difficult.

08:29 Emily: If you don’t mind, I want to add something there, which is about how chronic this can be because I think in regular society, in a normal kind of job, if you were experiencing financial stress or insecurity, there are actions you can take to alleviate that by increasing your income through your primary job, finding another job, moving to another place. But inside academia we don’t feel as free because we have this career goal that we’re pursuing, and the income is not really the main point of the job, right? It’s the training for that next stage. So we start to feel more stuck. Whether that’s actually true or not, how stuck we are, I think it’s a very common feeling, and to me that contributes to the stress, as well as just looking out of this long time horizon of this is not going to change for years and years and years potentially. I really think that that contributes to it, the stuck feeling.

09:22 Susanna: Yeah. Well absolutely. Sometimes I think about, so I’m in my sixth year and at this point I’ve invested so much time and money that I could have made in a higher paying job and I’ve gotten paid the same amount for five and a half years. Now, if I decided I have to have more money right now — I’m really lucky to be a single person who didn’t come in with a huge amount of debt, and has a lot of skills that help to keep my financial requirements down — but let’s say I had a dependent, or let’s say something happened, if I needed more money, I literally could not get it right now. Part of my department is that we signed on saying we weren’t going to have a part time job. I would have to choose between my actual needs versus all of this time and energy I’d put in and walking away with almost nothing. At this point I actually can’t master out, it’s a weird part of my department, so I would literally walk away after five and a half years. So I think that that goes both ways with any kind of crisis, right? Whether it’s finances or mental health or just general physical health, that we are in this really precarious spot where if anything major happens, there’s not really a safety net. And I think that we’re constantly, like you said, we’re constantly aware of that and it’s not something that’s going to go away.

10:52 Emily: Yeah, we’ve definitely well outlined that part of the problem. What was the second point you’re going to make?

10:56 Susanna: Yeah. So the second point is just that, and I think we’ll talk about this a little bit more, of why mental health is worth investing in, worth putting in that money, even when we don’t see the dividends right away. But if you don’t have the money you might decide to or you might have to allocate your resources to other things. Although mental health affects everything that we do, if you can’t buy food that’s going to be a more immediate problem. And what we know about mental health is that even if it’s a small issue, if left unaccounted for, I’m saying untreated, but that doesn’t have to be necessarily medical, that can just be talking to a close friend or doing something like yoga, those things to help you rebalance, if you don’t get the chance to do that, then can develop into something worse and more chronic and takes you more energy and resources to get out of. I think that those financial issues not only cause some of the mental distress, but also make it very difficult for people to remedy the kind of signs and symptoms before it becomes a bigger issue.

12:14 Emily: Yeah, I definitely see what you’re saying there. It’s the same in the area of finances as well, which I say this a lot, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but when the prevention becomes out of reach for whatever reason, then yeah, you’re continuing down that line into the negative conclusion there.

How to Support Your Mental Health in Grad School

12:33 Emily: Okay. Given constraints in resources that PhD students and postdocs have, how can they find low cost methods and resources for bolstering mental health? And you just said it might involve treatment or it might involve some non-treatment options.

Professional and Medical Options

12:50 Susanna: I think my biggest piece of advice would be to talk to an expert in whatever way that you can. It’s not great across the world or even across the US, as far as having healthcare for students, but one thing that people might not necessarily know is that your general practitioner, so the doctor you’d go to if you had a sore throat or something similar, that’s actually someone who has some training in mental health. If you have health care coverage, you can go to that perso, and that’s something, you know, if you go to your university and say you want to talk to someone about mental health, if they covered mental health at the university, then that’s fantastic. I think it’s worth looking into. If they don’t, it’s okay to say, well, I’d like to speak with my general practitioner, and they can do some basic screenings.

13:39 Emily: I actually want to ask a little question there because when I was in graduate school, I went to student health as my — so I didn’t have a primary person, I had sort of a practice that I saw through the university. So when you’re saying the university versus your primary care provider, you’re saying the university as in the nonmedical support options that a student might have available to them. Is that right?

14:01 Susanna: Oh, no, that’s a good clarification. So for me, even though I go to campus health, we have our own providers. So we can meet with somebody and then request them every time. I do all of my physical health care through the university student health. The university also has a campus psychological service, so a counseling service, and in fact, what happened for me when I was having a hard time is I actually went into my practitioner who is at the general student health, and she did this little screening. I had gone in to try and get sleep medication because I wasn’t sleeping and she said, “you know, it seems like there might be something else going on here. I’d like to instead prescribe you some antidepressants.” And then they kicked me over to the campus psychological services who in turn referred me to my now therapist. But all that’s to say that the campus health, the people there, even just in the physical health spaces, do have training, at least to give you an idea, is this something that you’re going to need a more specialized form of help, or is this something that maybe you can deal with outside of medical treatment?

Susanna: In terms of the financial side of this one is that it’s really important to figure out what your insurance covers. This can be really tricky and I would just recommend either finding someone who’s gone through this or working with the campus facilities because they should have somebody. It’s okay also to reach out to a friend and say, “Hey, I’m having a hard time with this. I have to navigate it and it’s going to be brutal. Can you help me?” Because I think that’s one of the big issues with the crossover of finances and mental health is that when you’re already feeling just drowned in distress and responsibility, the idea of waiting through calls and emails is just absolutely abhorrent. I would say reaching out, figure out what your insurance covers, take a look at what money you do have flexible. If this is something that you could afford to see a therapist once a month, twice a month, once every two months, and to be able to then go into your resources, at the university, talk to someone and say, this is the amount of money I have, just full stop. I don’t have flexibility outside of that and they will be able to help you find, there’s something called sliding scale therapy, and so if you don’t have the means or the insurance, there are places that don’t take insurance but also charge you based on how much money you make. One really good option is group chat sessions, or kind of the support groups. Sometimes they’re through university. A lot of times depending on what you’re dealing with, there are local groups.

Susanna: Then I would say though that there are going to be some situations that you’re going to have to find a way to see, maybe a psychologist or a psychiatrist. A psychologist has a PhD in psychology. They’re usually you’re like high level counselors. A psychiatrist is someone who can prescribe medication. And so for things that might need a little more attention, it’s going to be important to figure out if you can get close to those resources. I would just encourage people to reach out to a friend, reach out to an ally and ask them for help navigating the system because there are low cost options, but it can be really exhausting to figure out what you need.

17:40 Emily: Yeah, that’s a great point. It would be, I’m imagining it would be amazing if there were a campus affiliated person who could like officially could help you navigate this. That may or may not exist in different places. Sort of an ombudsman, I guess that kind of thing, maybe that would exist. I know for me, when I sought out a little bit of counseling help when I was in graduate school, if I remember correctly, I went straight to the counseling services on campus. I did not go through like the medical referral route and they had some sort of package available where you can get this many sessions for free over the course of the semester. And then if I needed more than that, I think it would’ve gone through my insurance. Then the other place that I went to was actually through my church and I was able to get some free counseling sessions — actually, some were free and some were low cost — through that avenue too. So it could be another maybe community group that you’re part of. Maybe that’s something that is provided to you as a benefit for being part of that group maybe. That’s kind of the medical side of things. Actually, I want to make one more point, which is for graduate students who are younger and who are still on their parents’ insurance. This is something that you might want to consider when you have insurance offered to you through your graduate program, but you also have the option of being on your parents’ insurance still. If you know that you’re going to need this kind of care, and this would apply to a variety of other medical conditions as well, which insurance is going to be more beneficial to you, and maybe even, is there a way to get double covered, potentially. I don’t know if that’s the case sometimes. Just something to evaluate if you’re eligible for more than one plan.

19:10 Susanna: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I would also say one of the things that gets brought up a lot is that it’s bad, that’s like the low term, that students don’t get full psychological care in addition to whatever medical insurance they’re provided, or just full medical care. But I would say that graduate school in general is not a bad time to start these processes and to get early intervention care. About 75% of people who are going to deal with mental health problems have their first encounter before they’re 25. So right around early, mid twenties is when these things really start showing up, or at least they recognized as larger issues. This is a good time to start getting that help and often university programs, even though they’re not fantastic always, offer a lot more things than you might get at a starting position at a job. I think that it’s worth mentioning, even though it’s not the best system, this might be one of the better places, at least for me in the next five years, foreseeably this is a better insurance set up and a better support system than I will probably have at my next job.

20:25 Emily: I think one of the other benefits there, and it goes right along with that is that the people who you see who are affiliated either with a university or just in the same city as university are used to seeing college students, graduate students, young adults, other people in this age range as you were just saying, when these problems sort of first start occurring, so they may have a little bit more familiarity than if you were in some random city somewhere else and a person who’s dealing with all kinds of different people. We would hope, at any rate.

Commercial

20:55 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Non-medical Options

21:58 Emily: Okay, so that was kind of on the medical side of things, but what about on more of the balance that’s not directly related to the medical or counseling treatment of mental health problems. What can people do this low cost or no cost on that side of the spectrum?

22:13 Susanna: Well, I love that you brought up the aspect of your church. Whether or not it’s a church, more religious side or some other kind of community based services. And I also know that some churches, even if you’re not a regular member, even if you’re not necessarily religious, will offer those kinds of support groups for people, depending on where it is and what exactly you’re looking for. But even things like joing a yoga studio, or finding a group — Meetup oftentimes has groups that get together, do yoga or have conversations — what can be really helpful for your mental health, there’s a couple things. One, the biggest thing is having a community and being able to feel like you can reach out to somebody and say, “Hey, I’m having a hard time” and to know that they have you. I think that’s technically a no cost option but it takes time to build those relationships with people that you can actually trust.

Susanna: Another really big thing for your mental health is your physical health. Being able to unplug from our phones, which is funny coming from someone who I basically live on social media, but I do actually try to take a week off every two or three months. But taking some time away from our built environment inside and getting outside or if you have access to university gym, fantastic. If not, going for a walk is fantastic. Call a friend while you go for a walk if you don’t want to be alone. Or walk to the grocery store. Or a lot of times if I’m having a bad day, I will get off the bus one stop early and just give myself a little bit extra space. You can do this with any sort of physical activity. There’s ways that you can build up your mental health, even by little things of like choosing positive music, doing affirmations, which is so cringy if anyone has done affirmations, it feels really weird. One of the things that I do that helps that takes like three minutes — I call it three, two, one where I list out three things. I’m grateful for that day; two self complements, so the things that I would say to a friend, but to myself; and one self-love thing I’m going to do that day. It could need get myself a coffee, it could be call a friend, whatever. That kind of like active self intervention can be so helpful.

24:48 Emily: I want to add something there. I really love that you gave that little tool because it’s so, I mean, you can do that at any time throughout the day at any point. I’ve recently been learning more about affirmations also and I’ve actually published a couple podcast episodes on how sort of your mindset with respect to money and career affects your finances overall and how affirmations can be helpful in reversing limiting beliefs around money or false beliefs that kind of holds you back from accomplishing things. I also was very resistant to this idea of affirmations the first dozen times I encountered it. But anyway, anyone who’s interested in that kind of thing, there’s been a couple episodes in the past, I’ll link them from the show notes. This affects all different kinds of areas of life, but I’ve been focusing on learning more about how they affect your money mindset. But go ahead.

Further listening:

25:38 Susanna: That’s super cool. Now I’m going to have to go back and listen to those podcasts. The last thing is just having hobbies, having things that you do outside of your work. And that can be anything from, again working out can be a hobby, or cooking, or sewing. Anything that you do, not because someone else is going to think it’s cool, you know, something that you walk away from and you’re like, “yeah, I feel better” just cultivating that. It takes time away, but it is a way for you to give back to yourself and basically a very low cost way of taking care of your overall balance.

26:20 Emily: There’s one more that I want to add in there. I think it’s on the physical health side of things, but that is sleep. This is something that I learned like personally, I did not sleep a lot during college. It was such an intense time and it was weird, I actually went on graduate school interviews about a year after I finished college saying if people ask me, what do you like to do in your spare time, what are your hobbies? I would just say I sleep now. That is my hobby. I lost all my hobbies during college. Now I sleep. That’s how I’m choosing to spend my time and build into myself. And it’s something that I’ve never returned to that lack of sleep that I practiced during college and it’s so much better on this side of things with the sleep.

27:04 Susanna: Yeah. I think that, overall a lot of these things can be summarized of like there’s two limiting factors. You’ve got the limiting factors of finances and you’ve got the limiting factors of time, and in general you’re going to have to choose what you’re gonna pay into. And you’re probably going to have to pay in both, but it is worth it because you get back both. I think that’s what’s really cool is that if you’re at a place mentally that is more healthy, you’re going to do better with your finances and you’re definitely going to do better with your time management and with the enjoyment you get out of your time.

26:45 Emily: Yeah, I think so as well. I don’t really think of these activities as taking away from time or money, but like you said, just just building back into it. I hear this a lot about like working out, like working out does not take time out of your day. It gives you back time during your day because of the energy boost you experience from it and how much, well, if we want to talk about productivity, how much more productive you can be after working out and so forth. Okay, so great, low and no-cost resources there.

The Importance of Investing in Your Mental Health

28:14 Emily: You mentioned earlier this idea of investing in mental health and especially at this particular time of life of, you know, potentially the early twenties. Why is mental health worth investing in? I use that term very carefully, because there’s very few things that actually qualify as investing. And because I deal with finances, I think about actually putting money towards making more money. But there is this parallel idea of investing in other areas of life that don’t directly give you returns on your money but rather give you returns on your self, your person. Why is this worth investing in?

28:46 Susanna: Wow, there’s just so many things and I guess I’m saying this from a perspective of somebody who, if we’ll keep going with the analogy just like really kept digging into that credit card of mental health, where I really didn’t sleep much. I’m still guilty of this and sometimes pushing it too hard, of having to dig into these stores that I don’t necessarily even have. But the point of investing time, money, resources into your mental health is one, if you don’t, it’s not going to get better. I think that there is this really, I think it’s dangerous mentality around grad school that it’s like, “okay, I’m going to do grad school and then when it’s done I’m going to start my life.” And that for some reason that the moment you graduate, everything’s going to get a lot easier, and there’s a lot less stress, and you’re going to be making way more money, and you’re going to feel like an adult. And not surprisingly, I when I talked to people who’ve been out of their PhD for six months, they’re sort of still reeling from it. They’re like, “Oh, it’s, I still have stresses, I still have responsibilities. And in fact, it’s really hard now because I have dealt with these for so long. It’s exhausting.” And so one of those things of why investing now is important is that, um, relative to at least how my future looks — that I want to have a family and kids, I want to have a really full career. I love being busy — is that I don’t foresee my life getting some easier and for me to suddenly find an extra hour in every single day to start dedicating. Building those healthy habits is going to set you really well up for the future when you do have more responsibility rather than just fight this kind of stress. I think this is a really weird time. There’s a huge amount of stress there. There’s no question.

30:42 Susanna: Then the other thing is that I think people have this idea that having better mental health just makes you feel better and it certainly can. I will also say that sometimes working on your mental health feels really awful and it’s important to know that working on your mental health or focusing on finding that balance throughout your life, might not feel great at the time, but you do reap a ton of rewards later on. Speaking personally, I used to go really hard throughout the week and I had something called my Fridays where anyone who was close to me understood that probably two or three Fridays every month I would just crash out. As of about 2:00 PM, I was useless. I was cranky. I couldn’t stay with having commitments and it would take until Saturday afternoon until I was back on it. It would just be a really weird cycle. Looking at it, if I — and this is what I’ve started doing is that I’ve been able to invest 20 minutes a day or so, on average, and then I don’t have that crash out time at the end of the week. And that’s time that I have actually saved. Some interesting things is that people who, for instance with depression, people who deal with depression take significantly more sick days than people who are not dealing with depression. People with anxiety are much less productive if it’s not being handled or managed. And so although you might be working more hours and feeling like, Oh, I can’t possibly fit 30 minutes of exercise in here a day, based on the data we have, you’ll probably be much more productive and you’ll probably make up that 30 minutes and then some, and you’ll also have the benefits of enjoyment that you have there.

32:39 Emily: I think you’re making excellent points on the mental health side of the equation, but I just have to underline everything that you’re saying on the financial side, too, of like don’t squander this opportunity that you have at the moment in building those positive habits in multiple different areas of your life. Because I couldn’t agree with you more that it is pervasive in academia that we think that our life somehow gets to be put on pause during graduate school or during PhD training. And it’s really not the case. As you were saying, if you allow problems to lie on unaddressed, they just, they fester and they grow and then it takes, even that much more to pull yourself back out of it if it’s even possible, at the end of that process. So it is much better to, as you were just saying, invest a little bit of time, a little bit of money, a little bit of effort on a consistent basis up front rather than trying to dig yourself out of it on the back end. Whether we’re talking about mental health or whether we’re talking about finances. Wonderful points overall. And I’m sure if we had more people on this call speaking about other areas of life and they would say the same thing. Beautiful points there.

Financial Advice for PhDs

33:44 Emily: As we wrap up the interview, I like to ask all my guests, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be related to something we’ve already addressed in the interview or it could be something entirely different.

34:00 Susanna: I think my biggest piece of advice and the thing that I’ve had to learn several times over is to give yourself a bigger buffer than you expect. I think what was hard for me is that coming into grad school, I budgeted kind of monthly and that was because a lot of my expenses were pretty consistent throughout undergrad. It was like, okay, every month I’m going to have this, and I didn’t have a car, I didn’t have my own real place. I was renting and everything was already taken care of. What I spent in one month was pretty much what I would spend the next month and I’d have a small buffer. And then getting into grad school, you get kind of these more adult-like problems of your washing machine breaks down, or I have to suddenly pay medical bills that I wasn’t expecting. Things like that. And so I’ve had to learn instead of focusing on a month to month and if I have a buffer at the end of the month, then great. I get to spend that next month, thinking about my buffer in terms of semesters or at least longer, maybe six months at a time. And then at the end of that six months, consider using that buffer. I actually had to learn that my second year when I switched over to a fellowship and they didn’t give us our fellowship for I think 25 days. I didn’t get a paycheck until almost a month after I was expecting it and I was really lucky to have that buffer. You are kind of at the whim of the university. You can’t do a side hustle necessarily. And so that pre-planning for things that you have no idea if they’re going to it’s just, it’s necessary. It’s tricky but it’s necessary.

35:45 Emily: Yeah. Wonderful point. And I mean there’s so much that I could and have teased out in what you’re saying in terms of not relying on the university to pay fellows the same way they would pay employees in terms of being on a deadline. That’s a common unfortunate problem. I totally agree with you about budgeting. I would say over the course of a year, like looking out over the coming year, although semester’s a little bit easier to get your hands around, through what I call targeted savings accounts. That’s a little bit more of a formal system. But like you were just saying, it’s just basically having a longer view about the expenses that are coming your way because they are hard to handle if you only have a given months amount of income to do so. Wonderful points there and thank you for that. Great advice.

Where to Find Susanna Online

36:24 Emily: For members of the audience who don’t yet know where to find you, what’s the best place that they want to follow up with you or learn more about something that you cover?

36:33 Susanna: Sure. I am on social media probably more than I should be, but it is sort of one of my hobbies. I consider it the only game on my phone. You can find me on Twitter and on Instagram @SusannaLHarris. And then to find PhD Balance, we both have a website which is www.phdbalance.com. And then we have Instagram and Twitter as well. You can join the conversation. You can see the other stories that people have have posted, some of our tips and we’d love to hear your stories and your tips. That you can find us @PhD_Balance.

37:15 Emily: Perfect. Thank you so much for giving this interview today.

37:18 Susanna: Yeah, thank you Emily. I’ll talk to you later.

Outtro

37:20 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

This Grad Student Is on the Lowest Rung of the Pay Ladder and Side Hustles to Compensate

February 10, 2020 by Meryem Ok Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Sarah ‘Frankie’ Frank, a grad student in sociology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Frankie describes the hierarchy of grad student positions at UW; the positions she’s primarily held over her years in grad school, teaching assistantships, are on the lowest level in terms of hourly pay. To make ends meet, Frankie side hustles doing activities that she truly loves, chiefly tutoring and baking. She concludes the interview with excellent advice for a grad student who wants and needs to do it all.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Frankie: You feel so subjected to whatever the institution tells you you’re worth–what you can do, what you can’t do–and the honest truth is that you have a little bit of bartering that you can negotiate. If you are in a position that you can make that kind of offer, you should because it’s possible that they find that money somewhere.

Intro

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode six, and today my guest is Sarah Frank who goes by Frankie, a grad student in sociology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Throughout most of grad school, Frankie has been a teaching assistant, a position that receives the lowest hourly pay rate at her university. We discuss the various types of positions a grad student might have and the advantages of being paid through a fellowship or research assistantship. Frankie’s $15,000 per year stipend isn’t enough to make ends meet, so she is engaged in many side hustles, the best of which were tutoring NCAA student athletes and her cake business. You won’t want to miss the advice Frankie gives at the end of the interview to grad students who are juggling a lot of responsibilities and activities at once. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Frankie.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:22 Emily: I’m delighted to be joined today on the podcast by Sarah Frank who goes by Frankie. And we’re going to be talking today about TA-ing, having a teaching assistantship and how that compares to other jobs you might have on campus as a graduate student. So, Frankie, thank you so much for joining me today.

01:38 Frankie: Thank you, Emily. I really am excited to be here. I feel honored.

01:42 Emily: Oh, well that’s lovely to hear. Would you please tell us a little bit more about yourself, you know, where you go to school and so forth?

01:48 Frankie: Yeah. So, my name is Frankie. I am a PhD candidate and a lecturer now at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in the Department of Sociology and in the Department of Legal Studies. I’ve previously spent three years as a teaching assistant and lecturer. I’ve also worked for athletics. And yeah, I think I have about two years to go before I have a job somewhere, hopefully.

02:10 Emily: Sounds good. So, you’ve already mentioned you’ve had a few different positions, so let’s talk about what your current position is and what your pay is right now.

02:20 Frankie: Yeah, so current position for lecturers, right now it depends on how many students will be enrolled in the course, but at a 33% appointmentship for one course in the fall, I’ll make about $7,000. So, over the whole course of the year, that can fluctuate to about a $15,000 baseline salary. And then adding in other jobs thereafter, I don’t make more than about $22,000 a year.

Level of Pay Variation at UW-Madison

02:45 Emily: Okay. So, that gives us a good idea of the range. So at a 33% appointment, if you did that approximately for the whole year, it would be about $15 K. Plus, your side hustle and such, have other jobs on top of that, of course, to make that work, naturally. Okay. And how has that level of pay varied over your time in graduate school?

03:06 Frankie: Yeah. So, when I first came as a TA in 2016, University of Wisconsin had one of the lowest pay rates for TAs. So, in our tiers of graduate studentship, being a teaching assistant was at the very lowest, at about 15 and a half thousand dollars per year at a 50% appointmentship. And then the union here, there’s a teaching assistant union that put a lot of pressure on our administration to raise that salary. So, we have gotten substantial raises. And then just this year, lecturers also got another bit of a raise. So, it has increased a little bit as we’ve gone on. But we still pay student fees. So, we pay segregated student fees that go into like student clubs and student rec centers that are mostly undergraduate. So, we lose a little bit of our salary there to the tune of six or $700 each semester that you’re taking full load.

03:55 Emily: Yeah, that is a huge bite. Okay. So, I just want to add in like a couple of notes there for the listener. So, if you want to see what other people are being paid at Wisconsin or in other places, one of the websites I run is phdstipends.com. So, go there and check out what TAs and RAs and other types of grad students, fellows are being paid in various places and enter your own data. So, there are a couple of things you mentioned I want to follow up on. You mentioned that TA pay was the lowest among the different sort of options, the way graduate students might be paid. So, what are those other options at Wisconsin?

04:31 Frankie: So, typically the lowest tier would be teaching assistants. The next tier up would be research assistant, and the tier after that would be project assistant. And then the top tier is obviously fellowship. So, if you’re on fellowship, you make the most. After the raise, teaching assistant and research assistant are more in line with one another. So, this is the first year that they’re really in line.

04:54 Emily: Yeah. That was something curious that you said that I wasn’t really sure about, that TAs and RAs had been paid differently. Now you mentioned that the union was just a TAs union, or does it also cover RAs?

05:09 Frankie: Right, so it’s strange. It’s called the Teaching Assistant Association, so it would sound like it’s just for TA’s, but it’s actually for all graduate student workers. So, it includes RAs, PAs, and it includes people on fellowship actually as well. So, graduate student workers generally.

What is a Project Assistant?

05:23 Emily: Okay. That’s really interesting to hear. I would love to follow up more on that actually with you, but I actually have multiple episodes scheduled with other people talking specifically about unionization movements at their own university. So, I’m excited to dive into that more in other episodes. But I’ve never heard of this job title, project assistant before. Can you tell me what that is?

05:43 Frankie: So, there are research assistants and project assistants, and it depends wholly on the grant that a supervising faculty applied for or the amount of responsibility or ownership that the student is taking over the project. In the mix, there is something called a traineeship, which seems to be blended with both project assistant and research assistant. I think it’s a matter of just titles, honestly. Because I’ve heard very different projects, very different gamuts, it depends on the department, what they call a traineeship versus a research assistant or project assistant. To me it sounds like, as far as hours worked, I know that teaching assistants have the most, and then research assistants have the second most followed by project assistants and trainees, and then fellows should have the least amount of work. They’re not required to do any specific work activities.

06:34 Emily: Okay. So, you mentioned a 50% appointment for a TA position, so that’s ostensibly 20 hours per week, is that right?

06:42 Frankie: Yeah, it’s supposed to be 20 hours a week. Yeah.

06:43 Emily: Yeah. Well, we all know how that really goes. So, what is it for RAs and PAs then? Do you know?

06:49 Frankie: They’re supposed to be 20 hours a week as well.

06:52 Emily: But in reality…

06:54 Frankie: Yeah, so the common thread is people know that RAs and PAs don’t work that much. They usually do closer to like 10 or 15 hours a week, if that.

RA-ing Does Not Always = Dissertation Work

07:04 Emily: Okay. So, this is something that I and other people get a little bit confused or conflate together. So, are you talking about for an RA position, a research assistantship, is that distinct from the student’s dissertation work?

07:22 Frankie: So, this is a really good question. It can be. It may be that’s the way you are earning your income, working on a supervising professor’s work and using their data. And depending on your relationship with that professor or what you want to do for your dissertation, their data might be your dissertation. And in some cases it is, but in other cases it’s not. So, the way that those things help you out in the long run dissertation-wise varies. The variation is incredibly wide.

07:52 Emily: Yeah. Because it’s always seemed to me–so, I come from a STEM field, biomedical engineering. And so what was common in my field and others that I observed in STEM is that most of the time most people had RA positions, and their RA work was the same as their dissertation work. So, it was like, really, once your classes were done and so forth, your full-time efforts could go towards your dissertation. And, you were also being paid off of the grant to do that work. Now, that means you don’t have as much freedom in what you do because it depends on what the grant is, of course. And so it’s all worked out between you and your advisor. I do think that it was more rare in my observation to see someone have an RA position that was different from their dissertation work. But it sounds like that is maybe more common where you are. And I’m sure this is very like field-dependent, right?

08:40 Frankie: So, in sociology, because someone might be working on some specific project long-term, or like a demographic project that takes many years of data collection, people might use some part of a dataset. Or you know, they’re becoming really familiar with the general science survey through their research assistantship, and then they use another element for their dissertation. Or, they end up meeting their professor who will chair their dissertation based on that project or find out who shouldn’t be their advisor via those kinds of projects. But I mean it does vary incredibly widely. I have heard that sociology is one of the few disciplines where it’s not a direct relationship, like you are working on what you will dissertate on. But I know very few people who are earning their income on exactly what they’re dissertating on. They’re usually right next to it somehow. Particularly, in sociology here we have demography. So, you have a lot of quantitative people working together. As far as qualitative researchers, not one of them have I heard is working on the same data set that they will use in their dissertation unless they get some sort of fellowship or specialty grant or something or have access to a professor’s previously collected research.

Perspective on Assistantship Tiers

09:51 Emily: I see. This is really interesting for me to hear because it’s such a different field than where I’m coming from. So, it’s good for me to learn about this. So, what I’ve always found as the important distinction, let’s say as a prospective graduate student, when you’re looking at different offers and different programs, I’ve always found an important distinction to be what percentage of your time is going to be available for you to work on your dissertation versus doing some other thing. You know, classes, TA-ing, RA-ing not for your dissertation, whatever that might be. And I would think that the advantage would be going towards programs where you can put a higher percentage of your time towards your own dissertation work. Now, that’s not to say you can’t find value from these other activities, but I don’t know, that’s kind of what my thought has been. Do you agree with that or what’s your perspective on that?

10:40 Frankie: So, for me and where I’ve been located, the more lucrative offers coming into graduate school are the ones that have more money or the fellowships. So, it’s sort of like you have to be higher ranked I suppose, or like at a higher admit level. So, then you have to take classes, right? But you can only take so many classes if you’re a teaching assistant, especially for the first time. And you know you have the highest workload, but you have the lowest pay, so you have to take on more classes or you just have to stay in graduate school longer. So, the system seemed really backwards to me when I first got here. Like, why would TAs be your lower tier? Or like, you know, not your highest admit student. Not that the people who teach are necessarily not as smart or anything, but the grant money is really in that quantitative data that the demographers are collecting.

11:33 Frankie: But then you have to work really hard, possibly more years while you’re taking classes. And at the same time, the expectation to publish is exactly the same across the board. And some people are given data from professors or they have quantitative data, but then you have qualitative people who have to conduct their own studies from the ground. So, IRB approval, to recruitment, to interviewing. And so, the people who are teaching have to do far more hours, far more work, but they’re also the least paid, so they may also have to take on these outside jobs. So, I think that those are the people who I see being the most stressed out. I think that they have the highest turnover as far as dropout rates as well. I think it’s just incredibly stressful to have little money and not enough time to accomplish every single thing you’re supposed to accomplish. At the same time, you’re supposed to be applying for every grant in the book while you’re doing all of this.

12:20 Emily: Yeah, it does sound to me like we’re on the same page. If you can land a fellowship, either an outside fellowship or something that’s provided by your university or whatever, that’s going to free you from these other responsibilities, it’s going to pay you better and as many years as you can do that for, that’s amazing. Minimize your TA responsibilities. If that is the thing that has the highest workload at your university, it sounds like it’s the case for you. Not to say that teaching experience isn’t valuable. Maybe you need to have that for moving onto your next stage, but you don’t necessarily want to do that every single semester. That’s a lot of teaching. Anyway, so really glad to hear your perspective on those things. So, it’s a very complex issue, especially for prospective graduate students who may not be that familiar with the academic system.

Determine the Standard Offer in Your Field Ahead of Time

13:01 Emily: I mean, I’ve been through graduate school and I’m still struggling to understand the structure that you’re talking about, you know, in the fields that you come from. So, this is just kind of a plug to do as much field-specific research as you possibly can. Well, I actually wrote an article about this a little while ago. It was titled something like “before admission season starts, determine what a standard offer in your field is.” So, is a standard offer going to be, “Okay, you’re going to TA the entire time”? Or is a standard offer, “Well, you’ll TA a couple semesters and then you’ll be an RA and if you want a fellowship that’s cool”? Like, what is that standard? So, then you can know if any individual offer you receive is at the standard, a good offer, a really not good offer. It’s just something you have to do your homework on before you even start like looking at those offers, and it’s very difficult. It’s very field-specific. So, I’m really glad to hear from you about that.

13:50 Frankie: I was going to say I feel really lucky, actually. So, for two reasons. One, my program decided to fully fund five years. So, students who come to sociology at UW Madison will be funded for at least five years. After that, they cannot guarantee you funding. But the second piece is I came here to teach. I’m becoming a professor to teach, which is not always common at an R1. I have been discouraged from teaching multiple times, but I think I would have left graduate school without it. So, I feel really lucky that it’s in my heart because it makes it worth it. It’s still very challenging, but I feel luckier in some ways than I know other folks in other universities.

A Deep Dive into Frankie’s Side Hustles

14:24 Emily: Yeah, well it totally makes sense. If it’s part of your career path and you want to go that direction, it’s great to have that experience and for you to get better at your own craft before you move on to that next stage. So, totally valuable in that sense. For people who don’t want to stay in teaching, it’s something probably to be minimized. Yeah. So, are you ready to talk about your side hustles that you have to put on top of this graduate student stipend to make it?

Tutoring for the Department of Athletics

14:49 Frankie: Yeah. So, the first one I did was I worked for the NCAA, the Department of Athletics at UW Madison. Of course, this is a big school for athletics, so you might think that we’re the only place with money, but I actually did this in undergrad, too. And the money tends to be excellent, particularly if you already have your undergraduate degree, they can pay you more. And so this is to the tune of about $20 an hour for group tutoring, closer to $18 for single tutoring sessions. And you make your own schedule. It’s very flexible. You only tutor what you want to. It was really fun. I loved my students. Student-athletes are highly exploited by universities like Wisconsin. And so it was awesome to build relationships with them. And I mean, I absolutely loved that job. When I gave it up to finish my Masters, I was very sad. But that was probably my favorite side gig, and I recommend it to literally everyone. If you want to pick up extra tutoring hours, the Department of Athletics wherever you are has money. And they have a need for sure.

15:48 Emily: That is a great tip. I’m always really curious when people talk about having side gigs on campus. How does that play with your stipend? Were you actually a W2 employee or was it like an independent contractor position?

Self-Employment: Frankie’s Cupcakes

16:01 Frankie: Great question. So, it’s still a W2. So, you can only work 75%. That means that I had a cap on how many hours I could work at the same time as being a TA. So, then comes in my other side hustle. In the last 18 months or so, I’ve started a cupcake company. So, I now sell cupcakes and cakes to everyone in the Madison or surrounding area here in Wisconsin. It started as a self-care hobby and then I got good enough that people would start paying me. So, now that’s my side hustle and also my hobby and self-care at the same time.

16:35 Emily: That is so much fun. What is your business name? Do you have an Instagram?

16:39 Frankie: I do have an Instagram. You can find us @frankies.cupcakes, which is the name, as well. We just went to the state fair yesterday to find out that I won a bunch of first place ribbons. So, that’s feeling good. Wisconsin state fair representing. But so yeah, you can find me. It’s Frankie’s Cupcakes. We have a Facebook and an Instagram.

16:57 Emily: That’s awesome. And so that, of course, is your own business. That’s total independent, not even a contractor. It’s just self-employment kind of stuff. So, I have this framework for side hustles that I like to talk about, which is one type advances your career. That could be like the teaching or tutoring for you, for example. Another type is just something you really enjoy doing that you can monetize. That is exactly this cupcake thing. And then there’s stuff you don’t like to do so much, but it gives you money. So, you do it. That’s a third category. And then the fourth one is passive income, which is a whole other can of worms. So, I love to hear that the cupcake thing sort of hits different satisfaction areas in your life for you. So, that’s awesome to hear. Have you pursued any other side hustles besides those two?

Arbitrage via Poshmark

17:42 Frankie: Well, so as far as passive income, actually, there’s an application called Poshmark, which lots of young people are using and they’re installing themselves on college campuses. And I’ve made a couple of thousand dollars selling stuff on Poshmark. Homewares, jewelry, designer bags, whatever. I’ll go to Goodwill, buy something designer that someone donated and then sell it on Poshmark and keep the profit. Or if I grow out of something or gain or lose weight, which you do in graduate school, it’s a great way to replace/cycle out your clothing. But also make some good money, especially if you come across anything valuable.

18:16 Emily: So, that’s a cool side hustle. Anything else you’ve done?

GRE Tutoring and College Application Assistance

18:20 Frankie: I know that I’ve done like tutoring on the side. Or like, unofficial tutoring for entrance exams, GREs, college application essays, things like that. For sure.

18:29 Emily: Yeah, that’s another really accessible one for graduate students because presumably, you got into graduate school, so you’re probably good at taking tests. You may be able to help other people with that.

Commercial

18:43 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us, and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns, from free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax. That’s P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now, back to the interview.

Prioritizing Valuable Side Hustles

19:46 Emily: When you are looking for a side hustle, what’s something that has really brought value to your life? In terms of like, what’s a really good pro of one of your side hustles? Where you’re like, “Yeah, this was a really great reason to be pursuing this particular one.” Or maybe, another one, “Hey, I stopped pursuing this side hustle because it turns out it wasn’t serving me that well for this reason.”

20:05 Frankie: Yeah. When I started with Poshmark, it was working really well for a while, but then it ended up being really time-consuming, and it’s not going to add anything to my resume. But tutoring for athletics–and then I ended up becoming a sociology and psychology tutor trainer, so I would help train other people–that’s going to look great on my resume. I ended up getting tutor-certified, and they pay for your training. So, they’re paying you to put lines on your resume. So, that ended up being wonderful. I wrote a couple of pieces about athletes and education. I ended up meeting some amazing people. It was great to meet people outside of my department. Not that I don’t love the people in my department, but it is nice to meet people who are not in the same building all the time with you who are also in graduate school. So, it was both personal and professional.

20:49 Frankie: Like what is it that you’re spending your time on that is good for you, your resume or your CV? But also, whether it’s because it’s something that you enjoy personally and the people you really like, or because you’re like, “Well this is a good way to make money that doesn’t like break my heart or soul somehow,” or like isn’t drawing you emotionally. The emotional drainage or some of the side hustles can be extreme. So, I knew that and needed to keep my emotional energy spent kind of low because I was spending so much of it teaching. I spend so much of it teaching. So, the cake thing is pretty much something I do by myself. And so it’s really nice because it’s something I pretty much do alone. You know, listen to a podcast or something on the radio and make cakes and it’s really good for my introverted side.

Managing Work-Life Balance

21:32 Emily: Yeah, I think that’s one really important thing. Just recognize about the whole, you know, work-life balance thing–like, the graduate school-“other things you do”-balance–is that it’s sometimes really, really wonderful to have an escape from research. I know for example, for me, if research was not going well, which it didn’t for like three years, it was great to have some things going on outside of that that I could find some success in or some satisfaction. So, how do you manage your actual dissertation work, your main job, your grad student job and all these side hustles and you know, taking time for yourself. Like, how do you make all that work?

22:11 Frankie: It’s a really good question. And I answer this question so many different ways and have answered it so many different ways. So, I think today my best response to you is that my work-life balance is less of a work-life balance. Just because my work is my life, and my life is much of my work and I have to be in love with everything I’m doing for it to be possible that way. So, I’m running these different organizations. I’m also committed to teaching. I’m deeply invested. I interview people about menstruation. And so, I have to love all of those things because I do them all the time or they’re always on my mind. So, I think for me, my work-life balance ends up being calming my mind or like finding good headspace. And for me, actually, it ends up being that my partner is not an academic.

22:57 Frankie: He is not part of academia at all. And that ends up being a blessing. And I put a lot of time into–we have wonderful cats and I do cat-sitting–finding peace in both cakes and cats. And also taking the time and being okay with not doing work for a minute or two. Not always having to do something–I have such productivity anxiety–convincing myself that it is okay to go see a movie, to just sit on Instagram for an hour and be okay with it and not judge myself. And so the first couple of years of graduate school, I had to learn to do that and know that that was actually self-care and healthy. I cannot recommend enough that anyone in graduate school go to therapy. Even if you don’t think you need it or if you’re like, “Well, I don’t need that yet.”

Benefits of Therapy in Graduate School

23:49 Frankie: It’s great to establish the tools you do need for when you need them. And I wouldn’t have made it, I don’t think this far, without having great support both at the university health system and in our own–I have this wonderful woman who I see in Madison–and sometimes it’s when I need it, and sometimes it’s when I don’t. And it’s a great tool that, like I said, I recommend to everyone in academia or any stressful life situation. It really is wonderful to have someone outside your department who won’t affect your resume, your hiring decisions, your teaching appointments, someone who you can really talk to. And you know, it’s hard to build friendships in graduate school. It’s hard to build really like noncompetitive community sometimes. And I recommend that people find spaces that they feel like they’re part of a community or they feel like they have friendship. And not that my therapist is my friend, but it’s someone who I can talk to candidly and not worry about anything. So, I definitely recommend that as a resource to anyone.

Best Financial Advice for Early-Career PhDs

24:46 Emily: You know, you put that so well. I really don’t have anything to add to that. I hope that everyone listening just kind of rewinds a couple of minutes and listens through all that again because I think what you said is so, so valuable. What really resonated with me was when you said that you have to love everything that you do. And I think that it’s something that we sometimes forget about in academia and in graduate school that, ultimately, you’re there by choice and presumably at some point there was some reason why you chose the field you did and the advisor that you did. And there’s something that you love about it, and you might be going through a really hard period. It might be a long period, but it should be something that you’re passionate about, right? Or else why are you doing it? And hey, go ahead and leave your program if it’s not your passion anymore. But it’s so refreshing to hear you say that you do love all these different aspects of what you do, even though it’s not paid that well and you have to string all these different things together. It’s something that you find great joy and satisfaction in in all these different areas. I’m really, really happy to hear that. And as we wrap up here, Frankie, what is the best financial advice that you have for another early-career PhD?

Save for Unexpected Expenses (E.g., Medical Emergencies)

25:52 Frankie: That’s also a great question. I have a little experience running into medical emergencies. I had two surgeries my first year of graduate school. That’s something I don’t recommend. If you can avoid it, don’t do that until the summer of any school year. I don’t recommend doing it over Christmas. And then again over spring break. That’s–don’t recommend. So, I was hit with some medical bills in a harsh way. And I wish that I had budgeted a little bit better, like my moving expenses my first year, and not spent money on cat trees and whatever else that I thought was necessary at the time. Because I was like, “Oh, I still have more money,” or, “Oh, I still have more money. I could spend a little bit more.” Or, “Oh, you know, I can make this $50, $100, $200 go a little bit further.”

26:37 Frankie: I wish that I had saved it and thought to myself, “If something does happen, I’m at a low enough income that I need to be collecting what I do have, even the pennies, so that if something bad does happen to me or if I do end up needing to take, I don’t know, a semester off, a summer off, something like that–which is totally normal–that I would be able to.” And I wish that I had prepared a little bit better for that because I spent the better half of my second year paying off medical debt from surgeries that, I mean my insurance plan “covered” so to speak, but I needed to more carefully plan that out my first year. I think I spent more money out of stress or thinking, “Oh, if I spend more money, I’ll feel better.” And then when I did need to have surgery and pay that off later, you know how medical bills work, they send you the bill after the whole thing’s over.

Own Your Negotiating Power (Yes, Even in Grad School)

27:25 Frankie: So it’s not like I could have avoided it. And I did fight the insurance companies. I did fight the doctors to get things lower. And then the other thing I would say is that I did end up going to my department one point and asking for more money for a certain job that I was being pushed to do. You can do that, and if you are a graduate student and you feel like you’re between a rock and a hard place, you can negotiate or ask for help or ask your university for help and put yourself in a place where you can say, “I need a little bit more for this semester or in advance or something.” And do try to work with the people around you just in case it does help you.

28:01 Emily: Two really amazing pieces of advice there. And thank you so much for those. On the first one, I totally agree. I mean, I think especially for someone who’s like a young adult, maybe you haven’t been navigating insurance on your own before. Maybe you’re new to budgeting, maybe you’re newly independent from your parents. These irregular events, these unusual events are not something that you necessarily budget in from the beginning. The thing is that, you know, maybe you didn’t know in particular you were going to have these surgeries or what the bills are going to be. Right? There is no way, really, as you said, that you can know that in advance. But the thing is that something’s going to come up in some category in some way at some time. You’re guaranteed that something’s going to happen like that.

28:40 Emily: So, as you said, just saving up in advance a bit as best you can. Obviously, it’s going to be challenging, but saving up in advance can really save you a lot. Both financially and stress-wise, like on the backend of whatever that emergency happens to be. So, thank you so much for sharing your story about that. And I am curious to hear a tiny bit more about your negotiation because it’s not something that I usually hear about, let’s say after the admissions process is done. So, can you say like what was the job that you’re being pushed to do?

Know Your Worth, and Advocate for Yourself

29:08 Frankie: Yeah, that’s a really good question. So, I was actually sort of between departments where one department had offered me a better-paying a job and one department really needed me to teach a job. Like, they were lower on teaching faculty and they needed someone to step in. And if they don’t admit enough people to teach each cohort year, then eventually they run into these issues where they don’t have enough people to lecture or people who have experience in the field. So, it was just this past year, and I had accepted this job in another department which would’ve been a lot more work, but they were going to pay me more. And I was excited about the opportunity. But then I had also said, “If I could work both jobs.” Well, UW intervened, the Dean’s office said, “You can’t work two lectureship jobs before you officially have dissertation status.”

30:00 Frankie: And I said, “Okay, so I have to choose one.” And so I was like, I’m going to choose the one that pays me more. And then basically I positioned to the other department and said, “This is less work for me. If you can match that salary and raise mine to meet the salary that this other department is going to pay me, I’ll take your job. And I’ll tell them that I’ll defer their job until next year.” And that’s exactly what happened. And people were like, “Well, I don’t think we can do that.” And I said, “Well, I don’t think I can take your job then.” So, I felt really lucky that I could sort of position that way. And it sounds very corporate, but the truth is that you feel so subjected to whatever the institution tells you you’re worth–what you can do, what you can’t do–and the honest truth is that if you have a little bit of bartering after a year or two that you’ve been part of a lab, part of a TA-ship, part of a union of some kind, to say, “I’m willing to do this for you. I’m willing to help out this department in whatever way.” You have a little bit of bartering that you can negotiate. If the department asks you to lecture and you can say, “Hey, I need about a thousand more dollars to really make that work or I can’t.” If you are in a position that you can make that kind of offer, you should because it’s possible that they find that money somewhere. Or they do this thing where they give you a top out scholarship where the department will just add on another thousand dollars in a scholarship fund to your tuition account and then you can refund, check it back to yourself. And that stuff happens and is possible. They can offer you greater hours. Like, they find little ways around the bureaucracy to help you. And I really recommend that students understand all of those different positions and also have those conversations.

Ask for Help: Get to Know Your Administrative Staff

31:33 Frankie: And if, if anything else, the administrative staff of your department are the people you need to know almost better than your advisor. Those are the people who have changed my life at the University of Wisconsin in every way. They know the system, they know the money, they know how I can get through the bureaucracy or challenges I’m facing. So, hats off to the administration at my university and my department and particularly in legal studies and sociology. They’re amazing people and they’ve made my life much, much easier on the financial end.

32:02 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for making that point. And I totally agree that they are the people to know. And it’s really good to hear that, you know, sometimes bureaucracy seems like this total juggernaut. It is what it is. It can’t be changed. It can’t be gotten around, whatever. But no, there are creative solutions. You just have to talk to the people who are familiar with their bureaucracy, who know all the tricks, who are going to be really advocating for you and working on your behalf to make whatever you need to have happen, happen. So, I’m really glad to hear that example of what was basically two competing job offers. Hey, you would have taken both of them if the bureaucracy had told you that it was possible. That wasn’t possible, but you were able to negotiate. That’s a perfect story, and I’m really glad that you shared that.

32:41 Emily: I’m glad to have another negotiation story that’s not right from during admissions season because that’s a really unusual one. So, Frankie, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast day. This is a wonderful interview.

32:52 Frankie: Yeah, Emily, thank you so much for having me. I feel really honored that I was able to talk to you and get to meet you. I recommend that everybody follow the advice given by other people who’ve spoken here. It really is valuable and it makes it so that everyone else’s life can be easier and everyone doesn’t have to experience it for the first time.

Outtro

33:08 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode. And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.