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This Grad Student Travels for Free by Churning Credit Cards

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In this episode, Emily interviews Julie Chang, a graduate student at Stanford University. Julie’s partner and parents live on the East Coast and she has family abroad, so during grad school she has pursued a specific credit card rewards strategy known as churning to help her travel hack. She has regularly flown domestically and internationally for several years almost exclusively using points and miles instead of cash. Julie details how she manages her churning strategy, including how she meets minimum spending requirements on her stipend, and how she has changed her strategy during the pandemic.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

grad student travel hacking

Teaser

00:00 Julie: Even if you don’t want to start off with churning right away, my best advice is to just get a credit card with a low minimum spend, and at least use that to start building your credit score and acquiring some points.

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode eight, and today my guest is Julie Chang, a graduate student at Stanford university. Julie’s partner and parents live on the East coast and she has family abroad, so during grad school, she has pursued a specific credit card rewards strategy known as churning to help her travel hack. She has regularly flown domestically and internationally for several years, almost exclusively using points and miles instead of cash. Julie details, how she manages her churning strategy, including how she meets minimum spending requirements on her stipend and how she has changed her strategy during the pandemic.

01:06 Emily: Julie and I don’t go deeply into the topic of who can or should pursue credit card rewards or how to get started, so I’m going to point you to some free resources I’ve created on those topics. They’re all linked from the show notes for this episode, which you can find pfforphds.com/podcast. My article titled “Perfect Use of a Credit Card” explains how to avoid all the pitfalls that easily accompany credit card usage by putting in place some pretty stringent rules. You will have to be well-practiced and following strict rules in this area if you want to succeed with credit card rewards. My article titled “How to Establish Credit in the US” is for people who have recently arrived in the U S or who have lived in the US for many years, without taking out any debt. It explains how to get your first toe hold in the world of credit and how to build your credit score over time. Finally, in 2019, I published a podcast interview with Seonwoo Lee titled “How To Make Money Without Working: Credit Card rewards and 529s”. That episode is quite complimentary to this one, and I recommend listening to it. If you want to go deeper into the subject. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Julie Chang.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further

02:20 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Julie Chang. She is a graduate student at Stanford currently, and we’re going to be talking about credit card hacking, credit card rewards strategies today. So, Julie, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

02:34 Julie: Sure. I’m a fifth year bioengineering PhD student at Stanford, and I’m currently studying how the mechanical properties of the extracellular matrix affect cell behavior and specifically in the context of cancer.

Credit Cards vs. Debit Cards

02:48 Emily: Yeah. Excellent. You have done what I used to view as the impossible, which is having a strategy for credit card rewards during graduate school. And I always thought there’s a little bit out of reach, so I’m really excited to learn more about credit card reward strategies in general, and then the strategy that you use in particular. Let’s just start off for listeners with what are the general advantages for using a credit card versus using a debit card? Because I know for me, I definitely started out just using debit cards. I was a little bit afraid of credit card. So what are the advantages?

03:22 Julie: Yeah, so I think there’s a couple of main advantages. The first is that you can earn rewards often in the form of points or miles, and then you can actually redeem this for either cash back or for miles to fund plane tickets. And on another point is that you can actually use credit cards to help build credit history. So in the future, when you’re buying a house, getting a mortgage, having a high credit score is super important.

03:50 Emily: And another benefit I’ll add to the two that you just mentioned is there’s a little bit more fraud protection available for credit cards. It’s quite easy to have a fraudulent charge reversed, erased on a credit card versus maybe more of a process or maybe even potentially impossible with certain charges on debit cards. Those are three, three great ones.

Pursuing Credit Card Rewards

04:08 Emily: Specifically on the rewards aspect of using credit cards, what are the different kinds of goals you might be able to pursue?

04:15 Julie: Right. Sometimes you can acquire airline points, so you can get a lot of Delta points, American airline points, and then you can use those to re redeem tickets, either domestically or internationally. On the other hand, you can also use points for cash back. Then you can actually use this to kind of pay yourself back when you purchase, say groceries or anything else. It kind of depends on the credit card.

04:43 Emily: Yeah. I know when I was in graduate school and I started learning about this area, I definitely only tried to pursue the static cashback, because I guess I sort of felt like the travel rewards were a little bit more, it’s a little bit higher level. It’s a little bit more complicated. It’s something you have to learn. There’s more of a learning curve on that. So I definitely stuck with the static stuff at first, which I think is a pretty common approach for people. But both of those are different kinds of strategies that will work. For you in particular why are we talking to this today? Why is this a strategy that you have learned a lot about and decided to pursue during your graduate degree?

05:19 Julie: For me, I’m doing my PhD program in California, but my family lives in New York, so then I would have to go back during breaks and my partner, he’s actually also a PhD student in Atlanta, so this requires a lot of traveling. Also a lot of my relatives are in Taiwan, so occasionally I make these international trips. Basically my perspective is using credit cards on things that I would purchase anyway and slowly build points to then redeem for these flight tickets. My goal was to not spend too much money on flights during grad school, but I don’t want money to be kind of a limiting factor in that I can’t see my partner or my family.

06:08 Emily: Okay. And was there…when did the shift happen? When did you set this as a goal? Was it just when you were starting graduate school, when you were looking at the geography of the situation and realizing the challenge, or did you go for while paying for flights in cash and then said, well, there must be a better way here.

06:23 Julie: I got into it just before graduate school since, I think to apply for credit cards, it’s a lot easier to apply for credit cards after you’re a certain age. It might be 21. So before then, I wasn’t really applying for credit cards anyway. And I think just when I turned 21 and then it was right before I went to graduate school, so it kind of worked out in that sense. And then I just kind of learned about it from searching online.

06:54 Emily: Yeah. And would you say that you’ve done more traveling than you would have been able to do just if you were paying straight cash? What’s been the effect on your finances, I guess?

07:06 Julie: Yeah. Essentially I typically don’t really need to factor flights into my budget, which is really, really awesome. And basically when I need to travel, I typically am able to, of course I still need to look at my budget overall, but there is a lot of flexibility. Another example is that my partner and I, we were able to go on a vacation to Greece, which typically the tickets might be a little bit more expensive and because we were able to pay for our flights in points, then maybe we have a little bit more flexibility in our budget for say housing or for food, during our vacation. So it definitely just reduces the impact of needing to spend a lot on a vacation.

07:50 Emily: Oh yeah. I mean, I can’t remember exactly what I was saving to spend on travel during graduate school, but I think it was at least a couple hundred dollars per month per person. And that was really mostly just for like obligation travel, like I have to go see my family, I want to go attend this wedding. So yeah, it’s really inspiring what you’ve been able to do. I’m really excited to dive into the mechanics of exactly how this happened.

The Basics of Credit Card Churning

08:13 Emily: What you have been doing as a strategy known as credit card churning. Can you explain what that is?

08:20 Julie: Yeah. Basically the bulk of the cash back from credit cards isn’t necessarily through the exact amount of money that you spend. It’s actually through these bonuses of signing up for new credit cards. For example, in some credit cards, you can get a certain number of points, usually it’s pretty high, maybe like 50,000 points, if you spend a certain amount of money in a few months. So a lot of cards you might have to spend $1,000 to $4,000 in about three months. And these points have 50,000 points. It could translate to say $500 if one is 1 cent, but if you can actually increase the value, say 1.50 cents per point, it becomes $750.

09:05 Emily: Yeah. I think maybe another way of phrasing what you just said is the amount of money that you need to spend to gain a given level of rewards is much less when you do that through signup bonuses, rather than through ongoing spending and ongoing cash back. There’s this lucrative period available right when you sign up for a new card. It’s the incentive that they’re giving you to do your business through that card versus some others. It’s this opportunity to capitalize on, right when you first switch onto a card. And so credit card churning is like very frequent switching onto new cards to gain those early on sign up bonuses. Is that right?

09:42 Julie: Yes, that’s correct.

Keeping Track of of Credit Cards

09:44 Emily: Okay, awesome. For you, as I said earlier, this is a little bit of an advanced level strategy. How do you keep track of all these cards that you either currently have, or maybe ones that you need to close, or maybe ones that you’re planning on opening? What is your mechanically…how do you keep track of all this?

10:04 Julie: Oh yeah. I basically do this through an old-fashioned spreadsheet. I color code everything. I typically put when I sign up for a credit card. And this is especially important if a credit card has an annual fee, because potentially you might want to cancel or downgrade the card when the annual fee comes up because it might not be worth keeping the card.

10:27 Emily: Yeah. So you keep track of when you sign up for a card, and then when one year, let’s say, is up for something that has an annual fee. Do you keep track of anything else? Maybe the minimum spend amount I would imagine, and the time period over what you have to do that?

10:40 Julie: Yeah. I keep track of all of that. I actually go into more detail in which I actually, every month I update all the point totals that I have and I also keep track of all of my redemption. So I think that might be a little bit extra in the amount of information I’m keeping track of, but for me it’s actually pretty fun to just tabulate everything.

11:01 Emily: Yeah. I could totally see how this would be fun because there’s kind of two halves of this, right? There’s like the accumulation of points and then there’s the planning of how am I going to actually use these points. And that is the really pleasurable par, I think, especially if one enjoys planning then getting to play around with different scenarios and so forth. Well, let’s come back to that in a few moments.

Meeting Minimum Spends

11:20 Emily: We just mentioned the minimum spending requirements like between one and $4,000 over a period of some months, that might seem like a lot of money on a graduate student’s stipend. So how do you actually make sure that you’re going to meet these minimum spends without, as you said earlier, outspending your budget, outspending your planned expenditures?

11:40 Julie: First I just want to be clear that everyone has to be very careful and tracking their finances. And you’re definitely in a very privileged position if you are able to do this. But for me, I look at many different factors. So one is timing. If I have a big purchase coming up, then I might as well use it in a minimum, spend another, more specific for graduate students is if you have conferences. So conferences can be pretty expensive. Sometimes you have to use your own credit card, so why not actually use it to help meet a minimum spend? Another thing that I’ve done is paying stuff in advance for other people, especially my family, where, for example, if we have a cell phone bill, I can pay that ahead of time. Another one that actually found out more recently is that you can actually pay estimated taxes with credit cards. And this is really interesting because with a credit card, there is a fee of, I think the lowest is 1.87%. But say, if you have a credit card that does 2% or even a special credit card, if the rotating category matches 5%, you can actually make money by paying the estimated taxes, which you actually have to do anyway. However, if you don’t have a card for that, if you’re actually trying to meet a minimum spend, perhaps it is worth it to pay that fee to kind of help you get that really high bonus for the credit card.

How Many Cards is Too Many

13:09 Emily: So for you, like let’s say in 2019, how many new cards did you sign up for?

13:19 Julie: I would say I haven’t signed up for too many cards just because I’ve been slowing down a little bit towards the end of my PhD, but I would guess maybe three to four cards, so nothing too crazy. I know there’s people that are super into it that might sign up for 10-20 cards per year.

13:36 Emily: Yeah. Well, that’s 10-20, that’s a number of more minimum spends that you need to hit. Actually three to four sounds like fast, but like okay, reasonable pace for graduate students. I think that this strategy of keeping track of minimum spends and what your expenses might be that are coming up that might help you meet those minimum spends, it goes actually really well with the strategy I love to talk about, which is that of targeted savings accounts. Not specifically the saving in advance for doing things, which is also a good idea, but actually more the planning aspect that comes along with keeping account budgeting like that is that you can look out over the next six months or over the next year and say, yup, I know that this large expense is hitting in this month. I know this needs to be, be paid here. And I definitely found that there were some one, two month periods when I was in graduate school where I would have like a flight I needed to buy, well, I was buying them in cash, a flight I needed to buy, and my six month car insurance premium was coming up and there were some other maybe some housewares or electronics purchase we need to make. There were definitely months where they would hit kind of like that, and I was budgeting for those and using targeted savings and thought that was great, but hey, the next level up from that is yes, save in advance, but why not also put it on a credit card and meet a minimum spend that you’re gearing up for anyway.

When to Apply for a New Card

14:48 Emily: This is more of a personally motivated question, but how far in advance of, let’s say a major purchase that you know is coming up on a certain date, would you need to sign up for a card? How do you actually time this so you know that you have the card ready to go when you actually need to make the purchase.

15:04 Julie: Yeah. I mean, I would probably do at least a month just because you have to apply for the card. And in some cases, if you’re not approved right away, you might have to wait a week or so. And that doesn’t mean that they’ll reject you, it’s just something that is part of the process. Another is if you put a credit freeze on your credit score, so that’s actually something I’ve done to be extra careful, you might have to lift your credit freeze, and that also takes some time. So I would budget at least a month.

15:35 Emily: Yeah. I know there’s a little bit of a game there because you need to give some buffer time in advance, but you also need to have enough purchases within the period of time to get the bonus to go through.

Commercial

15:46 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, book club and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now back to the interview.

Using Credit Card Churning to Fund Travel

16:50 Emily: So you mentioned the challenge that you were facing of living far from your family and your partner, and you also mentioned, okay, you’ve been able to, for instance, you were able to go to Greece with your partner. What were some of the other benefits that you’ve experienced by doing this? For instance, have you ballparked like how much money you have not spent on travel by doing this strategy? Or can you tell us a little bit more about the upside?

17:13 Julie: It’s definitely quite a bit of money that I’ve saved through travel. I don’t remember exactly how much, but for example, I would go from California to New York round trip before the pandemic, probably two to three times a year. Then in addition, I would also go to Atlanta or vice versa maybe a couple of times a year. So it’s definitely many flights that I’ve saved on. And pretty much I’ve been able to not pay cash for most of my flights during grad school.

17:44 Emily: Yeah. It’s just an incredible benefit to not have to have that aspect in your budget, of paying for travel when you know that you have to do it like this. It’s really amazing that money can come kind of from nowhere, if you have a great credit score, if you’re really on top of your budget, if you have a spreadsheet like you do and you’re keeping track of everything and being diligent. It’s just amazing how much money you can free up for your budget. So I hope this is sounding like good news to some people in the audience who are currently spending more than they would like to on travel.

Credit Card Churning Strategies

18:14 Emily: For you, like when you’re realizing you’ve come to the end of a one period of minimum spend and you start thinking, well, what’s going to be my next card, how do you search out these cards? How do you actually find that’s going to be the best fit for you?

18:27 Julie: There’s a lot of very active communities on the internet. Specifically on Reddit, there’s a subreddit called churning that has all of these. There’s a lot of specific websites such as Doctor of Credit. Actually, I keep pretty up to date and people will typically announce whether there might be a new card coming up. But for me as a graduate student, if I know I don’t have any big purchases coming up, it’s also a practice of self-restraint, where I know I shouldn’t apply for new credit card, and instead kind of look at my portfolio of credit cards and see perhaps certain cards have increased points per certain category and maximize that instead.

19:10 Emily: I see. And then you mentioned earlier cards with annual fees, specifically canceling a card with an annual fee before that second fee comes up. How do those overall play into your strategy? Is it something that people should consider or maybe should avoid? What are your thoughts about that?

19:26 Julie: I would say definitely for beginners, maybe focusing on cards without annual fees because they also have much lower minimum spends, so it would be pretty easy to hit minimum spend. But for me, the only card I have with an annual fee that I currently use is a Chase Sapphire Reserve. For me, I always have to do a calculation, whether it’s worth it for me to keep the card for the next year. There’s certain factors that I consider. One is looking at the benefits that the card offers and if I would actually use that, and another that I might consider is whether keeping the card will help me increase the value of the points that I’m spending. For example, with the Chase Sapphire Reserve, each point I can actually redeem for 1.50 cents instead of just 1 cent.

20:19 Emily: Yeah. I actually, so also for me, the Chase Sapphire Reserve was the first or maybe the second card with an annual fee that I ever signed up for. And I actually just canceled it a few months ago because I was like, I’m not traveling. I’m not traveling anytime soon. I don’t want to pay this fee because I do not see any redemption on the horizon. What I did specifically with that was I transferred the points to another Chase branded card that we had figuring at some point in the future, I’ll probably get the Reserve or the Preferred again, transfer the points back and be able to redeem them at at least that much value, if not more/better later on. So that was my particular solution to that, but I’m glad that you reevaluated and decided, okay, I’m going to keep this card for the time being. It does have some pretty nice perks to it for a high fee.

Churning During the Pandemic

21:04 Emily: Speaking of the pandemic and recent changes, what has been going on with you and this strategy in the last six months?

21:11 Julie: Yeah. So there has actually been a lot of changes to the point space since the pandemic and I think these effects are likely to stay for quite a while. So obviously I’m not redeeming my points for travel; however, for Chase, because they realize this they’re actually allowing you to redeem 1.50 cent per point for groceries. Before it used to be just travel, but now it’s actually for grocery purchases. So for me, if I put my grocery spend on the Chase Sapphire reserve, I’m able to redeem those points for the groceries. And also since I had a few canceled flights this earlier this year, then I’m not really looking to apply for cards that will give me more miles, but I might look for cars that give me a little bit more flexibility in how I can use those points.

22:01 Emily: Hmm. So when I thought about the pandemic and affecting my travel plans, both personally and professionally, I’m already in a period of not applying for cards right now because my husband and I are looking forward to buying a house in a few months. And so we don’t want to be messing around with our credit right now. If not, I think I would probably still be signing up for stuff because I, again, hypothetically, I think my attitude would be well, get the points, bank them now, spend them later at some point. Why is that not your approach? Why do you prefer the flexibility right now?

Julie (22:36): Well, so actually right now, I’m not really applying for cards and I’m just kind of using my current portfolio of cards to reach or to kind of build up the points, as you said. I might look towards applying for a card later this year, but I’m actually not in a rush to apply for new cards right now.

Planning Point Spending

22:59 Emily: Yeah. You said you updated your spreadsheet monthly with figuring out how many points you currently have and with what providers and so forth, how do you go about planning how you’re going to spend the points? What is that process like for figuring out, okay, these points transfer to this airline, you know, all of the complexity that goes along with that.

23:18 Julie: Yeah. That I would say is actually the hard part of figuring out how to use those points. There’s certain programs, like Chase, where it’s pretty easy to redeem the points because you can just do it through any airline by using Chase travel, but certain cards you can actually transfer it to specific airlines and convert it into miles, which is actually, even though it’s harder, it could be better because you could get better value for your points. For me, I like having points in several different companies, for example, also in American Express. I also have points specifically in Delta, so then whenever I, for example, if I want to travel to New York, I can look at what are the different points I have and figure out which program I want to redeem it in for the best value.

24:10 Emily: I’m also thinking that some of this, the planning of the redemption might be specific to your local city. You obviously live in a major city with several different airports and airlines to choose from. I’m also reflecting, I recently moved from Seattle to the Los Angeles area. So in Seattle it’s all about Alaska. Like Alaska is by far the winner airline right there, so I was always trying to sort of figure out how to get Alaska airline points versus other things. Now that I live in a different kind of city I’m thinking, well, my strategy might need to be different. Do you know of any resources where people can find out more about the airlines that service their local airports or maybe their destination where they commonly go, they want to figure out how to do that?

24:51 Julie: I think the best way to figure that out is just looking through the specific airline website and figuring out which destinations your city travels to. But otherwise also just looking online to see what other people tend to do in your city.

25:08 Emily: Yeah. And I guess if you live in a major city, like the San Francisco Bay area, Seattle, Los Angeles, there’s going to be plenty of conversation around how to do this in cities like that. Well, is there anything else you want to add to tell the audience more about your strategy or what you’ve been able to do with it?

25:26 Julie: I think as a graduate student, even if you don’t want to start off with churning right away, my best advice is to just get a credit card with a low minimum spend and at least use that to start building your credit score and acquiring some points.

Best Financial Advice for Early Career PhDs

25:43 Emily: So Julie, as we wrap up this interview, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD?

25:50 Julie: My best financial advice would be to start early. Many financial related actions serve their greatest benefits when done early, so the effects can be compounded over time. And I think this not only applies to investments compounding over time, but also any positive practices that you do such as saving money on food by not eating out too much or using credit cards to your advantage.

26:14 Emily: Yeah, absolutely agree. Starting early, I mean, a lot of graduate students might feel like they don’t have a lot of options right now, especially living on a lower stipend, but anything you can do any habits that you can form any even habits of mind that you can work on, it’s all going to benefit you throughout your time in graduate school, after that going into your career, and really, I like to think of it as, if you build up these habits and practices and thought patterns right now during graduate school, once you get that higher salary later, you’re going to be able to like hit the ground running blast through financial goals, when you get to that point, if you’ve done the sort of mental preparation beforehand, even if you don’t see a lot of actual financial progress earlier on.

26:57 Emily: Thank you so much that advice, and thank you so much for joining me today, telling the audience about your strategy. I’m really excited post buying a house to be back on the credit card rewards game so this is really inspiring to me.

27:11 Julie: Thank you.

Outtro

27:13 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

A Lucrative Summer Internship Enabled This PhD Student to Max Out Her IRA

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In this episode, Emily interviews an anonymous member of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community and alum of The Wealthy PhD. Anonymous did a summer internship at Google Research, which helped her evaluate whether she wants to pursue a career in academia or industry and set her up well for an industry career. The internship also paid her in three months approximately what she makes in an entire year on her grad student stipend. Anonymous shares her tips for applying to Google’s summer internship program and convincing your PhD advisor to let you do the program. The sudden but temporary increase in Anonymous’s income spurred her to participate in The Wealthy PhD, through which she opened and maxed out an IRA, optimized her financial accounts, and started tracking and budgeting her expenses.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Anonymous: Kind of talking about how much you earn, or like, how much money you have in your bank account can be an uncomfortable topic. So, having a safe space, or a kind of required space, to be open about your finances and listen to other people’s ideas. I think having this community was really empowering for me.

Introduction

00:26 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode seven, and today my guest is an anonymous member of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community and alumna of The Wealthy PhD. Anonymous did a summer internship at Google Research, which helped her to evaluate whether she wants to pursue a career in academia or industry and set her up well for an industry career. The internship also paid her in three months approximately what she makes in an entire year on her grad student stipend. Anonymous shares her tips for applying to Google’s summer internship program and convincing your PhD advisor to let you do the program. The sudden, but temporary increase in Anonymous’s income spurred her to participate in The Wealthy PhD, through which she opened and maxed out an IRA, optimized her financial accounts, and started tracking and budgeting her expenses.

01:23 Emily: The Wealthy PhD is my signature program that delivers financial inspiration, accountability, and actionable knowledge. Through one-on-one coaching sessions, I help each participant to identify at least one overarching goal that they would like to achieve during the program and map out the necessary steps. I also lead weekly accountability meetings with small groups of participants during which you will set and report on small weekly goals and also receive help overcoming any obstacles you’re facing. It’s an intensive and highly transformative experience. The next cycle of The Wealthy PhD will take place in early 2021. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD. In the meantime, the Personal Finance for PhDs Community is available for you. The Community comprises many financial education resources I’ve created, including the ebook, The Wealthy PhD. The Community is a self-directed experience. However, I am always available to provide assistance and personalized feedback to you through the Community forum and monthly live calls. We also have monthly challenges and a book club. A benefit I recently added is that you are invited to sit in on my podcast interviews and ask your own questions of my guests. You can learn more about the Community and join anytime through pfforphds.community. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Anonymous.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:31 Emily: I have a really special guest joining me on the podcast today. She is a member of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, and she is also an alum of my Wealthy PhD program. So, we’ve been working together for a few months now. She is actually choosing to remain anonymous for this episode. So, I won’t use her name, but I will let her introduce herself to you in just a second. And we are going to be talking about the wonderful, lucrative internship that she did just this last summer, summer of 2020 with Google and how she got the internship and what it’s done for her finances. So, super excited about this. This is a great one to listen to if you are considering whether or not you should do an internship during your PhD program. What are the pluses and minuses? We’ll be talking about all of that. So, welcome, and will you please introduce yourself?

03:42 Anonymous: Yeah. Great to be here. So, hi I’m Anonymous and I’m a fourth-year PhD candidate studying electrical engineering and computer science, or EECS. Actually, a fun fact about myself is that I actually studied Biomedical Engineering at UC Berkeley, where I went as my undergrad.

Google Research Summer Internship Experience

04:04 Emily: Yeah, good to know. I didn’t even realize that. So, we have that field in common, actually. Okay. So, I mentioned this last summer, you did an internship with Google. What was that type of internship and what do you think you got out of it? Professionally speaking?

04:19 Anonymous: So, the internship was my first industry experience. So, it was actually very valuable for me in and of itself to gain perspective on how research works in an industry setting versus academia. And during the internship, besides doing research, I tried to attend a few seminars which talked about industry versus academia. And there were some great workshops where professors slash research scientists, so people who lead a dual life of industry and academia, talked about their experiences. So, I tried to focus my experience on what would it be like if I were to get a job in industry.

05:00 Emily: Okay, so this was, you were thinking of it as actually kind of like a trial period in helping you decide which way to go in your career.

05:08 Anonymous: That’s right. Yeah. Since I switched my major from biomedical engineering to electrical engineering, before I wasn’t really thinking about industry as much as now. But having switched the major I noticed that a lot of people in my major would start doing internships after their third year or their fourth year. So, I really wanted to try something out to see if I would like it or not.

05:36 Emily: Okay. Yes. Let’s come back to that point in a moment, but I just wanted to hear more about did you actually learn anything new or was it more about you learning the setting and how things work in that setting? Or, yeah, just more about like, what did you get out of this internship?

05:51 Anonymous: So, this internship is actually a little bit special in the sense that it’s very research-focused. So, within Google, I was within Google Research. So, it’s not quite typical industry experience, I suppose. The setting was actually quite similar to how I would normally work with my PhD advisor.

Career Development Opportunities via Google Internship

06:14 Emily: And what about future career opportunities? You know, if you do decide that you want to go into industry instead of academia, you know, do you see the possibility of being hired at Google or at least would maybe your mentor be able to serve as a reference? Or what about sort of the furthering of your career?

06:30 Anonymous: Oh, definitely. So, I’m not sure about other companies, but at the end of my Google internship, I had the option to either return as another intern for next summer, or for those who are graduating within one or one and a half years, they had an option to do full-time position conversion internally. So, at a minimum, this is a great opportunity, I think, for me to get an internship opportunity back again, because I will not be graduating for another two years, so I’m not eligible for full-time conversion. But I think this is also kind of a good motivation for PhD students to do an internship either after their third year or their fourth year. So, I haven’t gotten a job yet, but I think this would also greatly help with the job search once you’re near the end of your PhD.

Why Should a PhD Student Consider an Internship?

07:23 Emily: Yeah, that sounds fantastic. So, both between your reasons and also maybe other people’s reasons, why should a PhD student consider doing an internship? Obviously, there are some programs like yours where it’s more culturally common to do internships. So, maybe speak to the people who are less familiar with why you would do an internship at all.

07:44 Anonymous: So, I think that you should try to keep your options open for those in the PhD. It’s still not late to get new experiences and decide what you would like to have in your career. So, if it’s something that you haven’t tried out before while we’re still in the program, I think that’s a great experience to get. And we will get to this aspect, but usually an internship helps greatly with your financial aspects compared to your graduate stipend. And that can be, I think that’s a wonderful motivator as well.

08:27 Emily: I see. I think the reason that you did this, especially, I think is a really great one is just kind of checking out the setting. Like, is this a place where I’d like to work compared to academia in helping people make their career decisions? I know that I did one, you could sort of call it an internship. It was, it was built more as a fellowship, but I did one three-month fellowship. It was actually after I finished my PhD, but it’s open to people who are not finished with graduate school yet, called the Christine Mirzayan Science and Technology Policy Fellowship at the National Academies. And from their like sort of conception of the fellowship program, it’s very clear that they’re not about like recruiting people to come work at the Academies. Like they’re about offering an experience in science policy to people who will, they always talk about it in thirds. About a third of them might go into careers in science policy.

09:13 Emily: A third of them will probably go back to academia and be, you know, faculty members or whatnot, or work in other roles within academia. And a third of them will go on to have other jobs. So, their purpose is just to give that experience away to people as sort of a way to tell them about what the National Academies are doing no matter what setting they end up in. So, at least that is billed as being very open. Like this is about career exploration and we’re happy to have people, you know, come participate in it for that purpose.

How Do You Discuss Internships with Your Advisor?

09:39 Emily: So, we said earlier that in your field, it’s a little bit more common to do internships, not unheard of. How did you navigate this conversation with your advisor of maybe, should I do an internship? What should the timing be? Is it okay with you? And how do I fit it in with the rest of my research plan?

09:57 Anonymous: I think the easiest way is to talk to your advisor early about, even if you’re a first year student, you probably have some careers aspirations that might change, and that’s totally fine. But try to have regular conversations with your advisor about what you might want to do after your PhD. And actually, your advisor can be the person who helps you get the internship. So, it’s not about getting his permission to do something outside of academic research, it’s working together to find something that works for both the advisor and yourself. And in my case, the research field that I was in while at Google Research, was not exactly my thesis topic, obviously. But it was in the same field of intersections between biology and artificial intelligence. So, I learned a lot of transferable skills in research that is actually helping me a lot right now that now that I’m back in PhD research. So, it’s a win-win in my case.

11:13 Emily: I think that’s a really smart approach to take in any negotiation is put yourself in the shoes of the person across the table from you and figure out what they want to hear and how this would benefit them. So, that’s awesome. You’re going to another setting, you’re learning something new and you’re able to bring back, you know, new ideas, fresh perspective, new insights to your existing resource and to your advisor. Hopefully, everyone can find some kind of connection between, you know, what they might be doing in an internship and how it can benefit their work or their advisor. At least try, that does sound like a great approach.

Tips for Being a Competitive Google Research Applicant

11:48 Emily: So, specifically talking about when you applied to Google Research. This is a fairly big program, right? Like, do you know how many people they accept every year?

12:01 Anonymous: I’m not sure, but probably across the world, there’s thousands of interns for summer.

12:06 Emily: Oh, wow. Is that at the undergraduate and graduate level?

12:10 Anonymous: I think so.

12:11 Emily: Okay. Yeah. So, quite a big program. What tips do you have about being a competitive applicant? Obviously, you were successful, but maybe you’ve learned even more since then about other commonalities that people who are successful in landing this internship.

12:25 Anonymous: Right. Yeah. So, I have some tips from myself and also something that I heard from a student. So, my specific role was software engineering intern. So,, it only applies to that position. Just FYI there are many types of internships within Google, not just software engineering. So, it’s going to be specific to that position. For this position, I had to do something called technical interviews, and I think that’s kind of unique to this one which requires some problem-solving related to data structures and algorithms. Thankfully this process is fairly common in other tech companies as well, not just in Google. And there are plenty of resources out there, too. There a standard interview book that everybody seems to use for this position and also a website called Leet Code to do practice problems.

13:20 Emily: What’s the title of that book?

13:22 Anonymous: The title of the book is Cracking the Coding Interview.

13:27 Emily: Okay. So, yeah, I’ll link to that from the show notes, as well as the website that you just mentioned.

13:33 Anonymous: Yeah. So the book is Cracking the Coding Interview, and the website is called Leet Code L E E T Code. So, I realize that this kind of technical interview might not be really common in other positions. And rather there might be more behavioral, quote unquote, behavioral questions. I think something common that other PhD students might need to do to get internship positions, not just software engineering, but other positions is explaining their research. And a great tip for this I heard is to try to prepare your research speech at three different levels. So, one level is for recruiters who know nothing about your field, the second level is for someone who is somewhat familiar, maybe you might know some terminologies, but not your specific research area. And the third level is someone who might be really familiar. So, maybe he or she is world class expert who invented the technique that you’re using. It’s uncommon that you might get this kind of recruiter, but at least with Google, it’s a large place with many, many smart people who know many things. So, when you’re explaining your research, which I think that would happen in nearly all probably positions that PhD students apply to, I think it’s really beneficial to prepare your speech in three different levels.

14:52 Emily: Yeah, that is a great idea. I’ll add in actually on the, using a book to prepare or whatever, I went through a round or two of interviewing for like management consultant company internships, which I did not get. But there is like a similar process of like everyone uses the same book, everyone practices, they call it casing, everyone practices casing together. And so, you can often find students at your same university who are preparing for the same type of interview. Maybe not even at the same company or whatever, but you can sort of form like working groups and practice together if you want to. I would imagine if you go to a large university, you’re probably going to be able to find some other people who are going through the same process at the same time.

Biggest Tip: Apply Early

15:33 Emily: And outside of the technical interview, do you have any tips on, I don’t know what the rest of the application entailed, but any tips on the rest of it?

15:48 Anonymous: The rest, I had to do a few more interviews regarding project matching. So, this was the phase where research scientists from Google would reach out to me. And we would talk about what their project is about, if I’m interested, what my skill sets are. So, this is where explaining your research comes in. Yeah. Otherwise, I think the biggest actually tip is to apply early. So, I don’t know when this will be published, but right now early October would be a good time to start looking around. Yeah, usually these positions get filled up in a rolling basis and I know really smart students who applied early the following year and they don’t get any offers at all, even though they’re super qualified to do so. So, the earlier the better.

16:37 Emily: Yeah, that’s a great, great tip. Thank you for adding that. We’ll try to push this episode out as quickly as we can so that it gets in front of people in a timely manner.

16:48 Anonymous: Right.

Commercial

16:51 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, a book club, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

What Did the Internship Do For You Financially?

17:50 Emily: You mentioned earlier that finances can be a great motivator to do a summer internship. Can I ask you how much you were paid by Google for doing the internship?

18:06 Anonymous: I don’t remember the exact total amount, but I think the total was almost equivalent to the amount that I would get paid by NSF for a whole year. But I got the same amount in three months.

18:21 Emily: So, NSF I think pays $34,000 if I recall correctly, or at least in that ballpark, for the year. So, it’s around that amount of money for three months. So, something like $10-$11,000 a month.

18:35 Anonymous: Yeah. I think it was slightly less than that, but yeah, I think that’s reasonable.

18:41 Emily: Yeah. That is incredible. You know, for a graduate student, you’re a fourth year. So, you’ve been living on, you know, your stipend for a few years now. It’s the NSF stipend, so it’s, you know, relatively generous. And then to get that same amount of money over a very short period of time is–maybe it’s wonderful, but also maybe a little bit like shocking. Like where’s this money coming from? And, “Oh my goodness, how did I do this?” So, what did doing the internship do for you financially? Obviously, the income is high, but then what did you do with that income?

Roth IRA Contribution Goals Achieved

19:14 Anonymous: So, I joined The Wealthy PhD program about the same time that I started my internship to exactly deal with the question that you just posed, which is what do I do with all this extra money? And I had a few goals I wanted to kind of accomplish over the summer. One of which was trying to contribute fully to the 2020 Roth IRA. So, I knew from this podcast that graduate students are able to contribute to Roth IRAs pretty recently. I don’t think I was eligible last year, but I am definitely eligible this year due to the internship. And I wanted to pay all $6,000, like within the summer. Concretely, this internship has enabled me to do that in one go. And that also really helped me with the lifestyle inflation problem. So, I was quite worried when, before starting this internship that I would suddenly live very lavishly and waste all my hard earned money that I earned.

Gaining Control Over Finances

20:23 Anonymous: So, I really wanted to avoid that. And The Wealthy PhD program really helped me to gain control over my finances so that, A) I know how I’m spending my money, which I didn’t really have an idea before. I knew I was kind of close to living paycheck to paycheck. I wasn’t in debt. But I was a little bit afraid and I was the type of person who was afraid to check her bank account sometimes. So, being in The Wealthy PhD program helped me gain confidence to manage my finances. And besides contributing to the Roth IRA, I think I also ended up changing all my bank accounts at the end. It wasn’t my plan. But while in the process, I noticed that I should try to consolidate various different accounts that I had into one place so that I can check more easily. So, it was kind of motivated by that so that I can be on top of my finances and that kind of led to discovering things like I think I had a GenGuard investment account that I totally forgot about. I worked very briefly between my undergrad and grad and I had an investment account that I opened, but I never checked. So yeah, a lot of things got accomplished during this program to gain control over my finances.

21:58 Emily: Yeah. I would say, you know, it was the combination of the extra income from the summer internship plus, “Oh, we have this opportunity now.” And so we’re not only going to be using the money in the best way you can, but also kind of cleaning up some other things that you had lingering in your finances that weren’t quite organized the way you wanted, and so forth. Like changing the bank accounts, like what was going on with that old investment account and like digging it up and figuring out what to do with it. So yeah, that’s wonderful. And as I, you know, what I do with The Wealthy PhD is, actually you have this as part of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community as well. It’s a framework that I developed for early-career PhDs to basically develop financial security and then wealth.

22:39 Emily: And so for you, like the other Wealthy PhDs, we just work on sort of figuring out where you were on that framework and getting organized and getting onto one single step. Because often people start, they are sort of on multiple steps at the same time. Getting onto one step and then moving forward. So, you were able to get through, you know, step four of the program, which is start to invest. You maxed out that IRA for 2020. Plus, you know, you were able to go beyond that, should you want to buy, you know, extra savings and so forth on based on the higher income. I would say it’s a major shift for you personally. Obviously, you know, decided to face your finances enough to decide to participate in The Wealthy PhD. But going from being someone who didn’t want to check their bank account to being, you know, an investor, totally like confident and competent. I mean, that’s a really big change, plus having the money available to do what you want to do with savings and so forth. Yeah, I would say it’s a really big shift. It was really a pleasure to have you in the program and I’m happy to have you continuing on with me as part of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community.

Additional Benefits of The Wealthy PhD Program

23:41 Emily: Is there anything else you wanted to add about your summer internship or about your experience with The Wealthy PhD?

23:48 Anonymous: I think I would like to just say that The Wealthy PhD program was a very valuable one. It was also not just getting over control, but it was the first time where I could speak freely about finances. I guess, depending on how you grew up or your culture kind of talking about how much you earn or how much money you have in your bank account can be an uncomfortable topic. So, having a safe space or like kind of a required space to be open about your finances and listen to other people’s ideas. That was really helpful for me to hear about how other people are dealing with their finances. I know that everybody’s situations are very different of course, but something that I learned that was really interesting to me was side hustling. So, I never thought about, I guess internship is a type of side hustling, but I never imagined anyone in their PhD doing extra work while they’re doing their PhD research. And during the program, I saw many, at least a couple people, who are doing really interesting side hustles. I think someone had a YouTube channel, which is amazing. I think somebody was an actual licensed therapist, which blew my mind. So, I think having this Community was really empowering for me.

25:11 Emily: I’m so happy to hear that. Yeah. It’s obviously something that I love to run. I love to be in. I love to provide support to these grad students and PhDs in this way. As you said, it’s really hard to find a space where you can openly talk about money. So, you have two challenges, right? First find a space where you can openly talk about money. Not too many of those. Secondly, find a space where people actually like can understand and sympathize with your situation of, “I only earn $30,000 a year.” Well, for you this year, that was different. But in a typical year, that would be the case. And, “Oh yeah, I really don’t have any potential for increasing my income on a fulltime basis until many years from now. Oh, and I’m also dealing with lingering, you know, debt issues and not having invested throughout all my twenties,” and all kinds of like unique to PhDs kinds of issues. So, I’m really pleased that I’ve been able to provide that space and that people like you have been taking advantage of it and we’ve been having such wonderful conversations. So, yep. I really appreciate that. Thank you.

Best Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

26:07 Emily: So, as we close out the interview, what is your best advice for another early-career PhD?

26:14 Anonymous: I would say I think just echoing what you just said. Try to start saving for retirement early. I, I think I had this mentality in my early PhD as well. But as PhD students, we mightfeel like we’re not earning enough money. So, we might think that, “Oh, I don’t have enough money for retirement. All my money’s gone after paying rent and food.” Or I think another thing is, “Oh, we’ll catch up once we get a real job. So, we’ll not save during our PhD years, but start afterwards.” But I think something that’s constantly being emphasized is the importance of time and compounding interests in investing. So, even if it’s very little, now that I’m back to my PhD stipend, I’m investing very little, but I’m still investing. As soon as my stipend comes in, I’m investing a certain amount of money to my Vanguard investment account. So, I think that that’s pretty important, no matter, regardless of what you think about how much money you have, where we can catch up afterwards. Just try to save for retirement early.

27:25 Emily: Yeah. You really only know what’s going on today. You don’t know what the future holds. You might stay in grad school longer than you expect to. You might do a five-year post doc. It may be a long, long time until you reach the point that you thought you would start investing. And as you said, with the power of compound interest, the time value of money, those years that go by could have been helping you a lot in terms of your investments. If you have, you know, the means and the willingness to start earlier, then it’s a wonderful idea. I just wanted to add in, actually, because you sort of briefly mentioned this earlier, but prior to 2020 people in your position, fellowship recipients, weren’t able to use IRAs, to contribute to IRAs. So, you could still invest, you could still invest for retirement.

28:06 Emily: It just couldn’t be inside a tax advantage retirement account. However, starting in 2020, that changed. So, your eligibility was different in 2020, not just because you did the internship, but also because your fellowship is now eligible to be contributed. So, I’ll link in the show notes to the podcast episodes that I have explaining that change as well. But it just happened at the end of 2019. So, some people are still not aware of the shift yet. So, yeah, if you have fellowship income in 2020, and you weren’t aware, yes, you can contribute that to an IRA. So, definitely think about doing that, or at least starting one, contribute a little bit before the end before tax day in April, 2021. So, thank you so much Anonymous for coming on the podcast and sharing about this internship experience of what it did for you financially. I found it fascinating. I found it really hopeful for people who maybe in other fields who could take advantage of an internship like this and have kind of a boon year like you did in the middle of grad school when it’s sorely needed.

29:04 Anonymous: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Outtro

29:07 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Why and How to Start a Coaching Side Hustle as a Grad Student, Academic, or Researcher

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In this episode, Emily interviews Cheryl Lau, a PhD student and branding and content coach serving graduate students, academics, and researchers. Cheryl assists her clients with their service-based side hustles, and our interview today is on why and how to start a coaching business on the side of your PhD training or full-time job. Cheryl identifies two mindset shifts that new coaches might need to make before they dive into their businesses and the first three steps they should take. Cheryl shares her story of figuring out personal branding following a quarter-life crisis and the financial impact that her own coaching income has on her grad student finances.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Cheryl: And that’s what I realized that, “Oh, wow. I actually have some answers and suggestions and tips. Maybe I can help people on that.” So, what I did first was actually started working with people for free. And I saw that, well, one of my clients actually was able to get a paying client for her own business. And that’s when I realized, you know what, I can charge for this.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode five, and today my guest is Cheryl Lau, a PhD student and branding and content coach serving graduate students, academics, and researchers. Cheryl assists her clients with their service-based side hustles, and our interview today is on why and how to start a coaching business on the side of your PhD training or full-time job. Cheryl identifies two mindset shifts that new coaches might need to make before they dive into their businesses. And the first three steps they should take. Cheryl shares her story of figuring out personal branding, following a quarter-life crisis, and the financial impact that her own coaching income has on her grad student finances. You can find out more about Cheryl and her business at cheryltheory.com. Cheryl and I met through the self-tenure community run by Dr. Chris Cloney. And speaking of coaching, Chris is actually my online business coach. If you want to learn more about starting and running an online business as an academic or researcher, definitely check out Chris’s resources at gradblogger.com and selftenure.com. What Cheryl and I cover in this interview dovetails very nicely with some resources I’ve released this fall inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. If you run a business as a side hustle, whether coaching or otherwise, you may be interested in my new course, Best Financial Practices for Your Self-Employment Side Hustle. I’ve covered two topics so far how to budget with a variable side income and how to choose a self-employment retirement account. If you are maxing out your IRA this year and don’t have access to a 401(k) or 403(b), I highly recommend the latter module. To view all the benefits of being part of the community and sign up, visit pfforphds.community. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Cheryl Lau.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:30 Emily: I’m really excited to introduce you all today to Cheryl Lau. She is a branding and content coach focusing on PhD, students, academics, and researchers. And specifically today, we’re going to be talking about coaching businesses. Now, I just said, Cheryl herself is a coach, she helps other people who are also coaches, and I also serve as a coach. So, we have a lot of coach talk going on today. And just to frame this a little bit, Cheryl specifically works with people who doing coaching or other service based businesses as a side hustle. So, this is absolutely something that you can do on the side of your graduate work, your PhD training, your full-time job. That’s perfectly okay. So, I want you to keep listening to this episode, even if you’re initially thinking, “Wait, why would I become a coach? What could I possibly coach someone about?” No, that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. So, you’ll probably have your mind expanded a little bit about the possibility of you starting a coaching business, and Cheryl’s here with us too, to help us do that. So Cheryl, will you please tell the audience just a little bit more about yourself?

03:32 Cheryl: Sure. So hi everyone. My name is Cheryl and I am originally from Toronto, Canada, but right now I am based in Hong Kong. So, originally I studied psychology at the University of Toronto, and now I am starting my PhD in Social Welfare at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. And online, I am a brand and content coach or strategist, and I basically help academics, graduate students, and researchers to really show up online confidently and build a brand and a side hustle business that really makes an income and an impact.

What is a Coach, and What is a Coaching Business?

04:05 Emily: So perfect. Thank you. Okay. So, Cheryl, what is a coach, and what is a coaching business? Because I know a lot of people, my audience will never have hired a coach for anything, they aren’t coaches themselves. So, what exactly are we talking about?

04:18 Cheryl: Sure. So the pure, pure, pure definition, if you search on Google, I’m sure the definitions will be something along the lines of empowering the client to make a decision for himself or to empower clients to really think on their own and think about how they want to achieve their own goals. So, that’s like the pure, pure definition of coaching. But how I like to look at a coaching business is basically using your own preexisting skills, knowledge or experiences to help someone solve a problem. And that could be in the form of coaching, mentorship, or teaching. So, basically if you’ve been able to get a result for yourself or for others and you can help other people achieve that same result, you can start a coaching business on that.

04:59 Emily: Yeah. So, a coaching business could be drawn out of professional expertise, certainly, but it can also kind of be drawn from expertise that’s developed through your personal journey and then expanding that beyond just yourself, working with other people, learning from other people. And I would say that latter describes, you know, my journey as a personal finance expert, right? Like I don’t have any certifications when it comes to like the financial stuff, but I’ve spent enough time in this space, talked with enough people, listened to enough great resources that I consider myself an expert, and bill myself as an expert in that area. So really, you know, you don’t have to be a professional in the area that you ultimately coach in. You just have to be, well, frankly, you just have to be more competent than your clients, really. I’ve heard it said that, to be a coach, you have to be just one or two steps ahead of the person you’re trying to help. So, like in the financial realm, you don’t have to be a certified financial planner. If you want to coach people on their budgeting, you have to be like pretty good at budgeting. You don’t even have to know about investments or all the other stuff. So, you can sort of narrow the scope of what you’re going to be coaching on based on the actual expertise that you do have. Don’t feel like you have to be an expert across the board at everything, right?

06:11 Cheryl: Yeah. And I totally agree with that. I feel like there are maybe a few different ways that people can look inside or in the past and assess where they can draw, they can derive a coaching business from. So, maybe like you said, your personal experiences or maybe achievements you’ve accomplished. Let’s say, for example, maybe you were a TEDx speaker. You can teach people how to become a TEDx speaker or get invited to speak at TEDx events. Or maybe if you’re really just naturally gifted at something, maybe you’re just a naturally good listener, so maybe you have a particular strength and you’re really upbeat and motivating and uplifting to other people. You can support people by being a listener. Perhaps you can become a life coach eventually. So, there are many different ways you can look at your skills, your achievements, or your strengths. And I think by looking at those three areas, you can kind of start thinking about what are things I can help people solve a problem on?

Why Coaching is a Good Side Hustle

07:05 Emily: Absolutely. So, let’s get back to like the idea of the coaching business. Why would someone want to pursue this while they have a full-time job or while they are in graduate school, for example? Like why is this a good side hustle?

07:20 Cheryl: So, as graduate students or academics, your time is very, very valuable. And by being able to start a coaching business on something that you already know by using your preexisting knowledge, skills, or experiences or achievements, you’re not starting from scratch. You’re not learning an entire new craft from stage zero, but rather you’re already building on top of what you already know. So, the learning curve is a lot faster. And that said, you really do not need an original idea. So, contrary to maybe startups where you need something that’s very new and fresh and original, here, your coaching business model or the problem that you’re helping to solve for other people. It’s usually kind of mundane. It’s nothing that new. So, maybe for example, for me as a brand and content coach, there’s many people helping others in marketing or starting an online business or side hustle.

08:17 Cheryl: So, the idea itself is not new, but in fact, where there is competition, that means there’s more demand for that service. And so, because time is so valuable as a graduate student or a PhD or academic, by building a business that doesn’t require you to learn that much skills upfront, you can save a lot of time. And also by working closely with your clients, whether that’s one on one or in a group setting, you’re really able to help pinpoint what are areas that people are getting stuck on and you can really answer their questions and help them resolve issues as they come up really quickly. And as a result, your clients are getting much faster results and much higher quality results than if you were to just create an ebook and give them all the information and they were to implement it on their own. Because challenges do come up, limiting beliefs and self-doubts do come up. But if you’re able to coach them through those limiting beliefs, then they’re able to get results much, much faster. So, those are a couple of reasons people might consider starting a coaching business.

Active vs. Passive Coaching Income

09:17 Emily: Yeah. You made a couple great points in there that I wanted to follow up on. One is regarding like the value of your time as a researcher. Service-based side hustles in general, they’re the fastest way to make money on the side when you’re literally trading your time for money. So, you know, you mentioned this in contrast to like for instance, writing ebook and publishing it and maybe generating passive income over time. That’s another way to help people, but they’re very different approaches and you can charge a lot more for one-on-one or small group services than you can for an ebook, for example. And you’re literally just trading like your hours for money. And so it’s very, very fast. You can build it very quickly, turn it around. Of course, you need people who want your service.

10:03 Emily: But it’s a very quick way to make money and more reliable, I would say, then doing something like trying to generate passive income from an ebook. And I think another point that you made in there that I wanted to pull out is that the way that you’re serving people is different than them just trying to learn something on their own. They probably have already attempted to learn and take action on whatever the subject area is that you are coaching in. Like in my sphere, in personal finance, maybe someone listens to my podcast, other podcasts, maybe they love to read about personal finance, maybe they read books. But there is still a disconnect between absorbing that information and actually implementing it in their life. And so if someone is at that stage of, “Well, I’ve taken in a lot of content, but you know what, I’m just not making changes in my life, and I want to.” That might be a place where a coach could step in, like I could step in, and help that person get to that next step. So, they’re both valuable, but it’s very different approaches for helping people achieve their results.

11:03 Cheryl: Yeah, totally. And you know, there are so many different ways that a person can make money online using your own skills and experience and knowledge. But one thing that’s very unique about coaching is that, or one benefit I should say, is that by serving your audience in such a high touch, high accountability, high personalization manner, even the quality of the results that your clients will get will be a lot better than if they were to do it on their own. And because of that, the testimonials that you’ll get in return at the end of your work together will be much better. And your testimonials are very important, especially when you’re building a coaching business because other people want to see that, “Hey, this person can actually help me solve a problem and get me really good results.” And so testimonials are really important for the marketing aspect of your coaching business.

Flexible Working Hours

11:51 Emily: I think another thing that you haven’t necessarily touched on yet, but is another point in favor of coaching as a side hustle, is that it’s very scalable in terms of time. Like you can spend an hour a month coaching if you want to, or you can spend many hours per week and that could be your side hustle. And so, it’s different than, you know, a side job, let’s say where someone else is dictating your schedule and the amount of hours you should work. It’s completely up to you as the business owner to dictate how many hours you’re going to work per period of time.

12:20 Cheryl: Yeah. That’s a really great point because the flexibility of the coach is just incredible because all you really need is wifi and Zoom basically. So, by being able to, basically honestly, you can work from anywhere. You can be a coach anywhere, as long as you have the internet, even the startup costs that you need to start a coaching business are quite low compared to other business models. You don’t need that much tech. You don’t need that much software. You just need Zoom and internet, basically. You can easily package later on if you choose. So, you can package what you’ve taught and coach people on into a digital course, a passive product. But after you gain more experience, after you really pinpoint what are areas that people really struggle with and what are questions that come up over and over again, and you take notes on those issues and challenges that come up, you can easily create a digital course or digital product based on your experiences as a coach. And you can sell that much better, as opposed to just creating a course upfront and not really knowing if it’s going to be able to help people get results.

Mindset Shifts to Start a Coaching Business

13:22 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. We’re talking to like graduate students, a lot of people and other PhDs, and they might be thinking like, who, “Who am I to be starting to be starting a coaching business, what is this? So, what are some of the mindset shifts that someone in my audience who is sort of intrigued by this idea? What do they might need to work on in their mindset before they’re able to really embark on a coaching business?

13:44 Cheryl: So, you just mentioned basically imposter syndrome: who am I to start a coaching business? And I think that is massive. And I think one other, I guess, belief that goes hand in hand with imposter syndrome is the idea, or basically the fear of judgment. So, what are people going to think if I start a coaching business? So, one perspective shift that I would really like to offer your audience today is to think about who are you trying to work with versus who are the people who might potentially be making judgments about your business? Because ultimately whatever you do in your life, there will be people who are making judgments about you, even if you’re not doing anything. Even if you’re not doing a coaching business, you’ll still receive judgment. So, the question is how much time and concern are you giving to the people who you’re trying to serve versus the people who really aren’t going to become clients in the long run?

14:32 Cheryl: And so, I would really encourage the audience who might be thinking of starting a coaching business to really think about, “Okay, this is a target audience I want to serve and how can I actually get my message and/or work in front of them so that they can see the value of my work?” As opposed to just worrying about what people are going to think, especially those who are really just never going to become fans or supporters of my work, because there’s definitely people who would never really see the value of coaching. So, that means that they’re unlikely to become paying clients or part of your audience. So, if you are really worried about what are people going to think, I would urge you to just to just focus on the impact that you can make and the audience that you want to serve, as opposed to worrying about people whose opinions really have no bearing on you serving that particular audience.

Navigating Imposter Syndrome

15:17 Cheryl: And also, as we mentioned, imposter syndrome. One really easy way to navigate this imposter syndrome is to remember that imposter syndrome really roots from feeling like you’re not credible enough to start this coaching business. But if you just remember that you’re starting a coaching business based off of your preexisting skills and knowledge and experiences, these are things that you’ve already done before, and you’re simply helping other people do the exact same thing. So, if it really is an issue that comes up, one thing that I encourage all of my own clients to do is to start working with people for free first. That way you can actually make sure that you can help people and get them results and not worry about, “Oh my gosh, can I really help people?” But by having actual evidence, concrete evidence that you can get results for other people, you are not only running your business in integrity, but you’re also able to work through that imposter syndrome by seeing that, “You know what, I can do this.”

16:13 Emily: Some people around you might be saying, “Wait, would anyone find value in the coaching that you’re providing?” But like you said, if you actually start working with clients and on a free basis or low-cost basis to begin with, then you can prove to yourself and the people who might be questioning around you, “Oh yes, I do help people get results. Like this is what I’ve done. This is what I’ve helped them do in the past.” You have the receipts basically. Once you start working with people and you can keep track of those testimonials and keep track of their results, that can both encourage you and help you answer to people who are wondering really what you’re doing here.

16:48 Cheryl: Yeah. I love that point. And you know what, very recently, I think about two months ago, I was meeting with an old classmate. So, my classmate said, “Wait, people actually pay you for this?” And I’m not gonna lie, I was pretty taken aback when I heard her say that. Because for many, many months, I’ve been working on my business and I’ve been working with clients and helping them get results. And to suddenly hear someone I used to be friends with question the validity or the legitimacy of my business was really shocking. But then in order to snap back into the swing of things, I reminded myself that, “Hey, you know what, I do have the receipts, just go on my website and you’ll see all these testimonials.” And I remember once again that I have worked with people, I’ve helped them get results.

17:35 Cheryl: And as a result, I’m able to run my business in integrity. And I think that’s really important for people to remember that you are focusing on people that you can actually help as opposed to faking your way into getting clients. Because, as opposed to just signing on every single client that is in sight, really focus on helping people that you can actually help so that imposter syndrome doesn’t come up and you can actually see the clients achieve amazing transformations.

18:01 Emily: Hmm. I totally agree about being selective about the clients that you take on. I think just coaching overall is kind of an unknown industry, or at least maybe among like the academic audience, it might be a little unfamiliar. So, I think the question of like, “People pay you to do that?” I can understand why you’d be a little taken aback by that, but I don’t think it was probably meant in offense, just like, “Oh my gosh, like there’s an industry around people getting paid to do this thing?” But like we were saying earlier, you know, for people who really want that high touch interaction with a coach, then yes. They decide at some point some of them that it is worth it to them and they choose to pay for it. So, it’s the decision of your clients, not the people around you.

Commercial

18:44 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, a book club, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

First Steps Toward Starting a Coaching Business

19:47 Emily: Let’s say that we’ve talked someone into, “Okay, I’m going to consider starting a coaching business. I have my area of expertise, my area in mind that I want to coach in.” What are some of the first steps that that person should take towards starting this coaching business?

20:02 Cheryl: So, I would say the first step is really getting clear on what do you want to coach on? And I think that if you want to gain more clarity on that, one of the steps that you can take is to really identify an achievement or a process that you’ve undergone and just map out that process step-by-step. What are the steps that you took or different areas or components that contributed to that final result? So, really just write down what are the different steps or parts of you being able to achieve a certain result or solve a specific problem for yourself.

20:35 Cheryl: And that will become kind of like your framework or methodology that you can walk people through to help them get results as well. Because ultimately, the goal is to be able to help someone through a process that is unique to you and something that you’ve done for yourself as opposed to teaching something that you haven’t really done for yourself. So, I think the first step is to really identify what are the key steps or key areas that have led you to where you are today. And then the next step would be marketing and sales. So, perhaps you can be on social media to share your services, to talk about your program, and to talk about how you’ve been able to get results for yourself. And really just share how excited you are about the program and why this worked for you and why it will work for other people who are struggling with something similar as well.

21:22 Cheryl: And finally, just delivering a really awesome coaching experience for a client. And I think those are the very fundamental steps that people can take when they’re just starting out. I mean, there are so many different things that you can do. You can start a webinar funnel, you can start an email list, you can create a podcast or YouTube channel. There are so many different things you can do to market and promote your coaching program. But I think at the core of it, having clarity on your offer, being able to share insight on your first few clients and also deliver really good results with people. I think that’s the core. The first few steps that people should look into first.

Finding Your First Few Clients and Charging for Coaching

21:55 Emily: I also think that there might be some people in the audience who are a little bit nervous about, you know, you used the word marketing. Like a little bit nervous about kind of putting themselves out there as like this coach in this certain area. You know, you mentioned earlier taking on your first few clients for free. So, I sort of view that as like an exploratory process, both for the coach and the people being coached. The coach is sort of investigating, is this something, you know, like you said earlier, can I provide value? Can I help this person achieve results? Do I like it? What do I think my time is worth? They’re kind of exploring through that process. And then of course you do need to start charging and I would say pretty soon. You know, don’t do that for very long. Can you talk to me about those first few clients? Maybe how to find them and then also the transition between doing that for free and then starting to charge for it.

22:44 Cheryl: Yeah. The interesting thing that I’ve learned about working with people for free is that because they’re not necessarily financially invested in your program, the chances of them staying committed throughout the entire process is not as committed as someone who has actually invested money into your coaching program. So, what I would suggest when you’re finding beta clients is to really be selective about it. So, invite people as opposed to just shouting it from the rooftops and hoping that people will inquire about it. So for example, what I did was actually, I looked at my current audience and I would recall the conversations I had with people and identify two or three people who I think would be a good fit and really fun to work with. And I send them a personalized message and say that, “Hey, this is my goal. I really want to launch this paid program in a few months time. But first I want to make sure that this actually works. So, based on our conversation so far, here’s what we talked about. And I think that this will be a really helpful program for you, and it will be complimentary, it’ll be for free. And in return, I just would really love for feedback and a testimonial if I provided value.” And so that’s how I would go about inviting people to be clients, your first few beta clients, you could say.

Transitioning from Free to Fee-Based Coaching

23:58 Emily: And how about that transition to starting to ask for money? I think that’s a really intimidating one for everyone, self-employed people–especially people who have been cultured by academia to believe that they should be giving away their work for free.

24:14 Cheryl: Yeah, that is a very, very interesting topic to talk about because you know, how I did it was I simply worked with people for free first and got the testimonials. And that just gave me the full-fledged confidence to tell people that, “You know what, here are the results I was able to help people achieve, both internally in terms of mindset and externally in terms of what they’re able to achieve online or for their own personal goals. And here’s why I am so confident in my work.” I think for someone who is starting a coaching business, just being very confident in yourself is something that is very important when it comes to marketing or selling your program. As long as you truly believe that you’re able to get results with people, as long as you truly believe in the impact of your work, I think that that energy can exude and can translate and people can tell. People can really tell when you’re confident in your work. But for someone who might be a little bit nervous about it, what I recommend is, I think pricing is a tricky thing. But what I recommend is just to pick a price that you are comfortable saying and sharing with people and just stick with it. No need to compare your prices with other people. Just pick a price, a number, it’s very arbitrary, to be honest. Just pick a number and then increase from there. As you gain confidence, continue increasing your prices and have it reflect the value of your work.

25:32 Cheryl: So, I think for people who might be nervous for charging, start low and increase as you go, that might be a way to go about it. Of course, please charge. Please charge for your time and the value and impact that you’re going to make for people. But when you’re just starting out, it might be a little trickier. But over time, you’ll recognize the value and impact of your work. And as a result, your prices will go up naturally as well.

Free is Okay at First, But Start Charging Soon

25:57 Emily: Yeah, I definitely agree. Okay. So, what we’re pointing out is, okay, free is okay at first, but put a limit on it. Start charging somewhere, and increase it. Whatever you feel, whatever you think you can say with a straight face, maybe after talking yourself up a little bit, start there and then increase it. I’ll say two quick anecdotes about that. One was from when I started my speaking aspect of my business. I decided to offer a free seminar to three clients. It was based on what was convenient to me geographically. And then I said, “After that, that’s it. I’m done doing things for free, and I’m going to be charging, and this is the price point.” So, I did that. One school turned me down. So, I gave two free seminars, and then I started charging. And in those first few months of starting to pitch myself and telling people about the seminar content and stuff, I was laughed at, and I was told that my prices were not appropriate a couple of different times. But I sort of knew that they were appropriate based on what I’ve learned about the market pricing.

27:00 Emily: And I just kind of had to persevere through that and, you know, ultimately, just a few months later, was able to earn that amount that I had been asking for, and then have increased my prices every year, since then. So, talk with a lot of people, once you’re ready to start charging. Cast a wide net for potential clients, and don’t be discouraged if the first two people you talk to don’t like the price point. That’s okay. Just keep pitching it and keep putting it out there, making sure of course that it’s reasonable for the market that you’re in. So, that’s one anecdote for my business.

27:32 Emily: Another that I’ll relay is Dr. Jen Polk, whose brand is From PhD to Life. She is a career coach specializing in PhDs. And I remember her saying that when she started this, this was probably about 10 years ago, she started doing this. She asked people, her first paying clients, for $10 for an hour of work. And that was the price point. And she is a huge advocate of people increasing their prices and charging what you’re worth and so forth because she did start out with like way, way, way, undervaluing herself right out the gate. And I think she did that for a little longer than she would like, which is why she’s always telling people the advice that we just gave, which is just increase, increase, increase. As you were saying, as you grow in confidence, as your pile of receipts of great testimonials grows and grows.

Origin Story of Cheryl’s Coaching Business

28:17 Emily: So, I totally think your action steps were were wonderful and right on the point. And now I want to get to a little bit more of your story. Out in the front of this interview, we wanted to talk about coaching more generally, but now I want to hear a little bit more about your story. And especially now that you’re starting a PhD program, what your coaching business is going to look like on the side of your graduate work. So, can you tell us more about your story of starting your business?

28:40 Cheryl: All right. So, let’s bring it back to a few years ago when it really started for me through a quarter-life crisis, essentially. So, what had happened was I was actually in law school. I finished my undergrad and I went straight into law school because I was in the mindset of, “Oh my gosh, what a prestigious career.” That was the mentality I had back then. So, I immediately jumped into law school without really thinking about, “Is this a really good personality and career fit for me?” But, you know, lesson learned. But fast forward a year later into law school, I realized this really was just not the right fit for me. I mean, it was very interesting to learn about the law, but being a lawyer is a completely different story. And after my internships, I realized that I just cannot do this. And so I made the very difficult decision to drop out of law school, and this was late 2018.

29:29 Cheryl: And I realized at the time, “Wow, what am I going to do with my life? Essentially, I entered my quarter-life crisis at that point. And I was dabbling in the internet looking at career websites. And I found the term personal branding. And that was very interesting to me. I’ve never heard of the concept before, but I thought, “You know what, let me try to build an online presence. I don’t know where it’s going to go.” So, what I actually ended up doing was creating a YouTube channel to share my experiences about navigating parents’ expectations, making difficult life decisions. The channel does not exist anymore, but what happened was that I was actually building a slow and steady audience on Instagram and YouTube, and people were asking me questions. They were asking me questions about, “Wow, how did you have the confidence to show up online? Like, I really want to share this experience or that experience, but I’m just so scared. Or, “How are you able to grow an audience on social media?”

30:18 Cheryl: And that’s when I realized that, “Oh, wow, I actually have some answers and suggestions and tips. Maybe I can help people on that.” So, what I did first was I actually started working with people for free. And I saw that, “Wow, one of my clients actually was able to get a paying client for her own business.” And that’s when I realized, you know what, I can charge for this. And that’s how my coaching business came about. I officially launched my paid program in March of 2019 and have been charging ever since. And fast forward to today as a PhD student, this is a side hustle for me. And my PhD is my first priority right now, but that said, my side hustle is a large source of income for me compared to my stipend. And just having that extra income, it’s able to help me feel more financially secure. Especially with such uncertain times right now, just having that sense of security is very comforting for me.

31:15 Emily: Absolutely. I don’t know how your stipend is at your university, but there are plenty of places here in the U.S. where graduate students are not paid a living wage, barely paid a living wage. And having a side hustle, especially like we talked about earlier, one where you can immediately start making money trading your time for money can really help you through. Through feeling more financial security, as you were just saying, through being able to, you know, enable some pleasures in your life that you want to pay for, to enable saving. Like there are all different kinds of goals that you might put in place for your side hustle income. So, I’m really glad that you mentioned the financial aspect of this too.

Learn More About Cheryl Theory

31:56 Emily: So, where can people find you online, Cheryl, if they want to learn more about your business and your work?

32:01 Cheryl: Alright. So, I can be found mostly hanging out on Instagram. So, you can find me @cheryltheory. And just for a fun fact, my last name is not theory, but it was simply because all of the variations in the full name was taken. So, I had to pick an Instagram handle name. So, I decided to call my business name Cheryl Theory because back in high school, I thought, “One day I’m going to have my own theory.” So, that was just a running joke for myself. So, I created my business name, my username as Cheryl Theory. And you can also find me at my website, cheryltheory.com.

Best Financial Advice for an Early-Career PhD

32:37 Emily: Perfect. So final question, Cheryl, that I ask all of my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be related to something that we’ve talked about today, or it could be something entirely else.

32:51 Cheryl: Sure. So, I think if I were to tie in a piece of financial advice related to the topic we were talking about today, is starting a coaching business can really bring in an extra source of income that can create so many different opportunities and options for you. But that said, one mistake that I see time and time again when it comes to new coaches, is that they get stuck in consuming information and not actually taking action on it. So, this is more so a business advice as opposed to financial advice, but I think it ties in with your coaching side hustle. So, instead of just waiting for you to feel ready and waiting to listen to another podcast or watching another YouTube video or download another PDF guide, just take action on what you’ve learned in those pieces of content, and actually just move forward. And if you fail, fail fast. And if you have to make tweaks, tweak fast.

33:42 Cheryl: The point of the matter is to take action really quickly and refine as you go so that you can keep moving forward. Because the interesting thing is that rather than having a step-by-step checklist that you can follow, and if you check off all the boxes, you’re going to get the coaching business success. That’s really not how it works, but rather there’s so many different ways that you can make money online. Just find what works for you and commit to it. So, continue taking action and not get stuck in information consumption or analysis paralysis.

34:08 Emily: Thank you so much for joining me Cheryl. This was a great conversation. I really hope that some people in the audience are going to start businesses based on, you know, hearing this. If you do, please let me and Cheryl know. And thank you. Yeah. Thank you again, Cheryl for joining me.

34:23 Cheryl: Thank you for having me.

Outtro

34:24 Emily: Listeners. Thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD’s Message for University Housing Is “Work with Us, Not Against Us”

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Travis Seifman, a postdoc at the University of Tokyo. During graduate school, Travis lived in university housing at multiple universities, but chiefly two campuses of the University of California. While the housing was subsidized and convenient to arrange, Travis noted a few downsides and annoyances. Travis and Emily discuss the differences between university housing and private housing and wonder how best to allocate this scarce resource. Travis proposes an adjustment in the approach that universities can take toward their housing administration: “Make it reasonable for adults.” This episode, recorded in August 2019, should serve as a conversation starter regarding the objective of university housing and its administration, especially in the era of COVID-19.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Travis: The purpose of university housing is not to make money for the university. The purpose of university housing is to provide an affordable place to live for students, in light of the fact that we’re only making X amount and they know full well that we’re only making X amount. And in light of the fact that in many of these communities, local housing, regular market housing is extremely expensive. Making it affordable, and then also making it reasonable for adults.

Updates

00:31 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode four, and before we jump into the interview, I have some personal and business updates to share with you. I’m going to start adding short updates to the beginning of each episode. This week, I have a pretty huge one on both the personal and business front, which is that my family moved from Seattle, Washington to Orange County, California at the end of August, my husband and I lived in Seattle for five years and had both of our kids while we lived there, so it’s a big change for all of us. This move brings us one step closer to our next financial goal of buying our very first home, which we are trying to do in 2021. I am documenting all the steps we’re taking to reach that goal in my progress journal inside the Personal Finance for PhDs community. If you want to keep up with our journey, or document your own, or access the multitude of resources in the community, you can find it at pfforphds.community. Now onto the interview.

Introduction

01:35 Emily: My guest is Dr. Travis Seifman, a postdoc at the university of Tokyo. During graduate school, Travis lived in university housing at multiple universities, but chiefly two campuses of the University of California. While the housing was subsidized and convenient to arrange, Travis noted a few downsides and annoyances. We discussed the differences between university housing and private housing, and wonder how best to allocate this scarce resource. Travis proposes an adjustment in the approach that universities can take toward their housing administration: make it reasonable for adults. I expect that this episode recorded in August, 2019 will serve as a conversation starter regarding the objective of university housing and its administration, especially in the era of COVID-19. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Travis Seifman.

Can You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:29 Emily: I have joined me on the podcast today, Dr. Travis Seifman. I’m delighted to have him. Travis, thank you so much for joining me. We’re going to be talking today about university-affiliated housing and Travis’s wide range of experiences with university affiliated housing. So Travis, thank you for joining me today, and will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

02:49 Travis: Thanks so much for having me, Emily. I’ve just finished my PhD in history at UC Santa Barbara, University of California, Santa Barbara, this year. My main research focus is on early modern Japan and Okinawa and rituals, diplomatic relations between them. I previously did two master’s degrees, actually at the University of Hawaii and the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London. Um, so I’ve lived in a few different places. And during my research, I also lived for a short time at the University of the Ryukyus in Okinawa, and at the University of Tokyo.

Travis’s Experience with University-Affiliated Housing

03:25 Emily: And all these different places that you’ve lived, at least some of them, or most of them you’ve lived in what I’m saying is university-affiliated housing. Can you describe the housing situations — main situation or multiple — that you’ve had?

03:37 Travis: Yeah, sure. Just to say it very briefly. When I was at SOAS in London, I stayed in grad student dorms, university housing. University of Hawaii, I stayed in regular private departments for one year. And then for two years, I lived at the East West Center, a federally funded think tank organization located adjacent to the university of Hawaii. So I lived in their dorms for a couple of years. Then, when I moved to UC Santa Barbara, they have dorms for single grad students and they also have family housing. I’ve lived in both of those, and I’ve also lived with my girlfriend at the family housing at UCLA. And during my research trips, I stayed at university dorms, visiting researcher dorms at both University of Ryukyus and university of Tokyo.

04:22 Emily: Why don’t you start with where you UCSB where did your PhD? What was your experience there with that housing?

04:28 Travis: To a certain extent, I would say it’s overall positive, simply in that university housing is always an easy go to option when you’re moving across the country or even moving to a different country. You know how to apply for it. You don’t have to arrive early, or get a hotel while you search for apartments and all this kind of stuff. And it’s often cheaper than the housing that’s around.

04:50 Emily: Do you think that it’s sometimes or usually is cheaper than going off campus because the accommodations are different, like maybe less private, for example, than what you’d get off campus, or have you actually lived in like subsidized university housing?

05:08 Travis: I think everywhere I’ve lived has been subsidized, whether it’s subsidized enough is another question. One place we could start is to just talk about the price. When I was living in the single dorms, the single person dorms at UC Santa Barbara to begin with my first year, the rent was somewhere around $980 per person in a four bedroom apartment. And the apartments in that area are somewhere around that cost. It’s the most I’ve ever paid to live anywhere. It was more than I paid to live in a private apartment in Honolulu. It was more than I’ve paid anywhere else that I’ve lived in my life for dorms in Goleta, which is a town that I had never heard of before I even moved there. We’re not even in Santa Barbara proper.

05:52 Emily: One clarifying question — you were living in a single person room, right? You had a private room in a four bedroom suite, is that right?

06:00 Travis: Yeah, it’s four individual private rooms, shared in a suite. It was $980, or somewhere around there, per month. And after I think, my second or third year there, the grad student association, or perhaps it was the TA union, actually managed to negotiate with the administration to get the rent lowered to $780, which I thought was an incredible victory. I don’t know how typical that is at other campuses, but we did manage to get it down. Regardless of what the market can bear in the area, it’s much more reasonable based on what we’re being paid.

06:38 Emily: Do you mind sharing what your stipend was at that time?

06:41 Travis: I believe it was somewhere around $1,900 a month, so if you spend half of that on rent —

06:46 Emily: Yeah, that’s quite high.

06:48 Travis: Yeah, and meanwhile, the family housing was somewhere around $1,300 a month, so you’re paying $1,300 for an entire apartment. I understand, obviously, subsidizing for families because they need it more, they have more dependents, but just to sort of mentioned that.

07:07 Emily: When you describe family housing or a whole apartment, are you saying it’s a studio or a one bedroom, two bedroom? How large is it?

07:14 Travis: Yeah, so I forget what precisely the rates are, but UCSB family housing has one bedroom apartments, they have two bedroom apartments. There’s a number of different configurations, but basically one bedroom and two bedroom, and I think they charge somewhere around $1,300 a month. And I’ve lived in one of those two bedroom apartments for a year as well.

07:36 Emily: So that was $1,300 for the entire apartment, so split between two presumably adults, maybe they have kids or maybe they don’t.

07:47 Travis: Yeah, exactly. So split between two adults, presumably both adults have some kind of income, but you know, one of them might not, one might be on a grad student stipend and the other one might be stay at home spouse, with children.

08:01 Emily: I think that’s not uncommon among international students, that if you get a spousal visa, the spouse is not permitted to work in the United States.

08:10 Travis: Right. That’s true. I hadn’t actually thought about that point. That’s true.

University-Affiliated Housing vs. the Private Market

08:13 Emily: How did it compare for you as a renter in that place versus if you had gone to the private market, as you had in the past?

08:22 Travis: When you’re working with the university housing, at least you have the advantage of that there’s an entire administration there and you kind of know who to talk to, as opposed to finding the landlord, like how do I actually get in touch with them? And to be fair, I suppose a lot of the rules probably aren’t too different, in terms of whether or not you’re allowed to have pets, most apartments don’t allow pets. Most landlords don’t want you repainting the walls or putting nails in the walls or anything like that. So in terms of a lot of those things, I suppose, I can’t say it’s too different. University housing has the opportunity to be more caring and more understanding about students. The idea that a landlord is in it for the money, that’s just the way things are. The university, ostensibly is not in it for the money. They’re in it to provide housing for members of their community. And so there’s an opportunity there to say, not just anything goes, but just to kind of be understanding of people’s needs, provide allowances, and just be a little bit more open.

09:30 Emily: I think what you’re saying is these students are part of the university community, right? The university is also their employer in many cases, or the administrator of their fellowships. It’s where they’re spending all their time and you’re part of this specific group. It’s not like when you go to the open market and as you said, it’s basically just about price, that’s it. It’s not intentionally trying to foster community or positive relationships between the landlord or the tenants or among the tenants or anything. So university housing is in a different position in that way. And like you said, one of the really positive things that it does is it makes it easy for students who are moving to a new area to find housing. They know they’re not going to be hosed. They’re not going to get in with a bad landlord or whatever. If it’s provided by the university, they know they have already a degree of trust there, is that right?

10:20: Right, right. And I think two places where private housing has the advantage over university housing because of the way that it’s administered, is in terms of access to guests, for example. I’ve had private landlords who’ve said we don’t want really loud parties, we don’t want you disrupting the whole community. But generally you have a key to your apartment that you can give to a guest if you’re leaving for a week or whatever it is. Nobody needs to know about it. You can have overnight guests and nobody needs to know about it. You can sublease and whether that’s officially allowed or not under the lease, you can sublease and people generally don’t have to know about it. University housing, they have all kinds [rules] — you can only sublease to single students who are actively UCSB students. Or if you’re in a family apartment, you can only sublease to people who qualify to be in a family apartment. If you’re going away for the summer, or if you’re going to wait for a whole year to do your research, it’s extremely limiting and for no really good reason.

11:21 Travis: A lot of university apartments, typically at UCSB, they’ve instituted that you don’t have any kind of key to your apartment. You open it with your student card. So again, if I’m even just having a guest over for one night, and I need my student card to get myself into stuff on campus, I can’t give them the card to get into the apartment. It’s these kinds of, I guess, on their point of view, it helps them enforce things maybe, or maybe it’s just a convenience that they didn’t think about the ramifications of, but it’s that kind of stuff where I’m an adult and who’s to say that I can’t have overnight guests. And even at the University of Tokyo apartments, even though the rules said that your overnight guest has to be officially a family member — a sibling, parent, or spouse, or child, I guess — when I actually, when my girlfriend actually came to visit me, they said, “well, we’ve put her down as your sister, so don’t worry about it.” And it’s that kind of, we can get into it later or maybe not, but it’s that kind of being willing to bend the rules that I think is, or not even bend the rules, but just be willing to help students rather than I’m here to enforce the rules, which I think a lot housing departments could afford to have a bit more of.

12:33 Emily: Yeah, that’s interesting. Thanks for providing the example of how you actually access your home. I was thinking, I guess it kind of makes sense for security purposes that you don’t want keys being given out and anybody being able to access whatever, especially because you have roommates within your suite, right?

12:51 Travis: That’s true. And security is an issue.

12:53 Emily: But like you said, it doesn’t allow for any discretion on the part of the actual person who lives there. And you wouldn’t have that kind of — I mean, with landlords, it’s like, okay, you’re not allowed to make copies of your keys. Most likely that’s in the lease somewhere. But as you said, it doesn’t mean you can’t allow your guests to have access a time or two when you’re not physically with them. It’s again, up to your discretion, as the person having the guest over.

Interplay Between the University and it’s Housing Office

13:18 Emily: What other experiences would you like to share?

13:20 Travis: One main thing that I would like to touch upon as I touched upon a little bit already is just the idea of having the staff there to say, I’m here to help you, I’m here to help you figure things out rather than I’m here to enforce rules. To give just a couple of examples of that, UCSB housing, if you have your own car, you can register that car, not any other. Only one car and you can park in the parking structure every day. If you don’t have your own car, you get, I believe it’s two visitor park passes a month and it’s included in your rent. I had my girlfriend coming up from LA however often, and granted that’s not allowed under the lease to be having overnight guests, but even so you won’t let me register her car because it’s not in my name, so what am I supposed to do, how am I supposed to have people park? I’m allowed to park all the time. It’s included in my rent if I have my own car, but because I don’t, I only get two passes a month. Anyway, the point of the story is to say that you walk in and the administrators say, “I don’t make the rules, I just enforce them” rather than saying, “I don’t make the rules. And I know they’re stupid, so let me tell you, actually, you can park over there over the weekends, or actually you can park here, or actually, if you use this code, you can get extra visitor passes.” Fill me in on what tricks or tips there are for making this more viable. And similarly —

14:56 Emily: I think that’s a more generalizable problem with bureaucracy, and the people who enforce it, as you said, rather than actually make the rules, but the people who are on the ground, interacting with those who are displeased about the rules. Often, the first response is just a recitation of this is the rule. Like I know the rules and this is the rule. It’s a little bit harder to find someone who’s willing to like find a creative solution. And often those people know what the creative solutions are because they know the rules so well, they’re supposed to enforce them, so they know the ways around them. It’s nice when you do find someone who is willing to work with you, but it might be something that you have to push for a little bit like, “I know the rule, but like, is there another way that I can get the result that I’m going for without breaking the rule?”

15:39 Travis: Right. Exactly. And that has to do with the way that university housing is integrated into the university administration, rather than being a separate entity, because if you have a private landlord, you can deal with them and they might be more friendly or less friendly that you can deal with them without it impacting reputation with the administration or I don’t know what to say, because it’s so integrated. And then of course, you have the opposite problem as well that very often housing is not integrated well enough into the administration, and I’ve had times when the cashier’s office agreed to let me defer my rent beausethe knew they hadn’t paid me. They knew that I wasn’t in the payroll yet, so they agreed to defer my rent for a few months and then nobody told housing.

16:21 Emily: Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because not being paid on time is actually a surprisingly common problem among graduate students. You would think that if whatever the problem was — the fellowship didn’t come through, it wasn’t processed on time, whatever it was — that housing, being affiliated with the university, they would have some procedures in place for “Oh yeah, this happens sometimes. It’s not the student’s fault. It’s again on the administration, and we have this policy where they can not pay rent for awhile.” You would hope that that would be in place. Whereas with the landlord, it might be a lot of hoops you have to jump through to convince them that it’s okay for you to not pay rent. Maybe you’ll get kicked out. That’s a possibility. So it sounds like it didn’t operate quite so smoothly for you.

17:05 Travis: Right. Actually that’s a really good point too, in terms of the pros and cons of university housing. The landlord doesn’t care whether you’ve been paid or not. I mean, they could choose to be flexible on a personal basis. Whereas the university you’re hoping it’s more integrated that they know. This particular case at Santa Barbara, it worked out very well in the end. Generally speaking, I’ve had overall, I don’t know why, but somehow UC Santa Barbara administration overall seems to be the least problematic of places that I’ve interacted with. They do seem to get their stuff together. When I first arrived at, at UCSB, as happens, I think anywhere that you go, it takes a little time to get into the payroll system. The semester or the academic year starts at the very end of September, so until you’ve worked through the month of October, then you get paid at the beginning of November. Otherwise they have no work to pay you for just yet. For whatever reason, maybe it’s typical for undergrads to pay for their housing on a quarterly basis rather than on a monthly basis. So originally they charged me three months rent at once and they wanted to take it all out of my fellowship before I could even pay my credit card bills, before I could buy groceries, before I could do anything else. Long story short, I talked to the cashier’s office and they were understanding and flexible and they agreed to not only put me back onto a monthly basis, but also to defer it so I didn’t have to pay the first few months rent until November. I then started receiving notices from the housing office saying that I hadn’t paid the rent.

18:44 Emily: So it was more of an internal communication problem within the housing office.

18:46 Travis: Right. It was just an internal communication problem between the cashier’s office on campus and the housing office over by the dorms.

Commercial

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Single vs. Family University-Affiliated Housing

19:59 Emily: And then the other thing that you brought up that I was interested in is you brought this up a little bit earlier about the price differential between single student housing and family housing, and you mentioned to me earlier that what is the definition of a family is a little bit of a strange thing to be talking about with university housing, right?

20:21 Travis: Right. Sure. At UCSB and I think probably UCLA as well are quite flexible and quite open minded about what counts as a family. I hope that it works similarly at other campuses. I hope that it does. At UCSB, when I applied for family housing with my girlfriend, you don’t have to be married, you don’t have to be in a hetero relationship. All kinds of different possibilities are possible — single parent with children, all kinds of different possibilities are acceptable. But you have to prove it. And I understand why on the administrative side, because you have such a limited number of units for family housing, you want to make sure that the people who are living there are actually families who are ostensibly more in need of the extra subsidized apartments. So I understand from the administrative side that they have to find some way of kind of proving that you’re a family.

21:28 Travis: At UCLA, they just do that through a very limited set of things. You have to have a shared bank account, proof of a former lease that you used to lease together under both of your names, marriage certificates, other kinds of very formal things. UCSB, for better or for worse, they say, even if you don’t have those kinds of very formal documents, you can share with us Facebook posts, texts, screenshots of your personal and private stuff to help try to show, try to prove that you’re in a meaningful relationship. So we shared with them screenshots from Facebook and from texting to say, “Oh, my parents are coming in for Thanksgiving. Are you going to be coming to dinner with us?” Or things like this.

22:18 Emily: This reminds me a little bit of, and I only know about this from TV or whatever, about green card marriages. Not green card marriages, but marriages in which a green card is involved and like having to prove to the government that you are actually in a romantically-inspired marriage, as opposed to some other kind of arrangement. It seems a little bit of overstepping.

22:45 Emily: I guess what I’m curious about with respect to family housing, and maybe this gets into more what you think or what you think the university thinks the purpose of family housing is? What do you think the purpose of it is? And is it accomplishing that purpose?

23:00 Travis: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think it’s a complicated issue because I think that for families, especially for grad students, like I was saying before, if one partner is on a grad student stipend and the other partners being a stay at home spouse, stay at home parent. Or even if both parents are on grad student stipends, you’re providing an opportunity, providing a way for them to live affordably as a family, with their dependents. For those in those situations obviously it’s a very good thing that that’s provided. I can’t imagine how some of my friends managed to afford…just how do you afford to live? We get paid roughly $1,900 a month. If your rent is $1,300 a month for the whole apartment, and that’s your only income for an entire family with one or two kids, I don’t know how people do it. So I appreciate that they have family housing for that purpose.

24:05 Travis: But then of course the flip side is that the single students are saying, just because I’m single, just because I don’t happen to have a romantic partner or a larger family, I have to pay more per person at least to stay in these smaller apartments. I personally have never had problem with being in a dorm room situation where I have my private room attached to a common room. But I know a lot of people also who say, I’m an adult and I want a whole apartment to myself or something like this. UCLA has studio apartments for single grad students and they charge a lot of money for them. UCSB the only option on campus is these two or four bedroom apartments, like I was talking about before.

24:54 Emily: Yeah. I guess this conversation is making me think about what is the purpose of family housing? Because like you said, it’s a differentially applied benefit. There’s more subsidy available to some people because of their family versus other people. And is that fair or is that not? But we were talking about university housing versus private off campus housing, where off campus the only regulation you’re going to find is a maximum number of people who can live in a certain size space. They don’t care, married, unmarried, children, not, it doesn’t matter. So maybe there is an opportunity with on campus housing to provide some, as we were talking about earlier, some additional support for the students in most need, like we were talking about students moving long distance or from overseas — hey, that university housing is there for you to make the whole process easier. And so maybe there is an opportunity to sort of subsidize students who are more in need, like those with dependents. But for me, the harder argument actually is extending that benefit to students in two income households, two income families without any dependence. That’s what, to me, gets a little bit tricky. Like you were saying, single adult versus a couple where it’s just two adults — why should that couple get any more subsidy if both of them are working, if both of them are permitted to work? For me it’s a little bit harder to extend this benefit beyond those who have actual dependents, whether they’re children or non-working spouses.

26:29 Travis: Right. And also, as you’re saying about this, it makes me think about international students who — I don’t know the ins and outs of it. I think being an international student is a lot more difficult in all kinds of ways than the rest of us know. But I wonder, I would imagine that for international students, even beyond the simple matter of the convenience of not having to look for an apartment, the convenience of being able to just arrive in the US and have already arranged an apartment. I would imagine that looking for a private apartment as an international student, you probably have all kinds of trouble with documentation with guarantors. Part of the reason that I’ve never looked for a private apartment for myself in Japan the many times that I’ve gone there for research is because I don’t have a Japanese guarantor, and I don’t have a Japanese bank account, and I don’t have a Japanese phone number until after I have an address to give the phone company to say that I live in Japan and to get a phone number.

27:25 Emily: There’s credit scores as well. That’s another major hurdle for international students coming to the US. The US doesn’t recognize any credit that might have been established in other places.

27:35 Travis: So that’s a whole other conversation to be had about whether some kind of more consideration should be given to international students, especially international students with a family, with dependents rather than domestic students, perhaps. And then just to kind of throw it in there, at the East West center, you have the opposite situation where the East West center dorms are only for people who are on a fellowship or otherwise sort of officially affiliated with the East West center, which is this sort of Asia Pacific studies organization. And it’s about, I think it’s about 75%, my numbers might be wrong, I think it’s about 75% international students. You can only get in there if you’re on a particular kind of affiliation with this organization. If you’re a UH student who doesn’t have that affiliation, you don’t get to live in these dorms. And the dorms are primarily single rooms and double rooms. The single rooms are $400 a month, the last I checked. That was about 10 years ago, but extremely reasonable, especially for Honolulu. But if you’re in a family, you can’t live there. It’s actually kind of the opposite situation of trying to get into these subsidized apartments and family housing at other campuses. That’s a whole other complicated…they really want people to live in the community and interact with each other, on a day to day basis. But if you’re in a family, then you can’t. I think you’re absolutely right. These are the conversations that people are having. Is it fair to have these subsidized apartments only for people in certain situations, and especially if the the second spouse, the non grad student spouse is earning a proper full salary at whatever job it may be, then they absolutely can afford that apartment while other people can’t.

29:16 Emily: And in your experience, has there been any means testing. Have you been asked what your income is when you apply for housing?

29:23 Travis: I don’t recall whether or not I’ve been asked, but I’m not aware of…I mean, I don’t know what goes on in the back rooms, but I’m not aware of that being a policy. I’m not aware of them giving preference to people who don’t have the second income or anything like that. I definitely know people who live in family housing who have a second income, people who don’t have a second income, international students, non international students.

29:54 Emily: It’s just interesting, because again, when we’re comparing with private landlords, how much you make is a very important question for them to ask, to make sure that you can afford the apartment. But of course, there’s no case where they’re going to say, Oh, you make too much, of course we can’t live here. Make however much you want. It’s fine. But it goes again, back to the question of what is the purpose of university housing, and if it is subsidized, and if it is one of their objectives to help students and students’ families who have less means to be renting off campus or whatever, then it might make sense to ask about that. But again, that’s another example of maybe some overstepping that could be going on. So this is a very complicated issue, obviously.

The Ideal University Housing System

30:29 Emily: I’m wondering for you, Travis, if you were to design your ideal university housing system, maybe what would your goals be? And how would you try to achieve those goals?

30:42 Travis: It’s a really good question, and I tried to give it some thought. I don’t know, I have to admit as much as we all have gripes, and I certainly have gripes. At the same time, I’m not an expert administrator, all of the ins and outs of how it should be done, and I understand that people are trying to do what they can, but I think the key point is the purpose of university housing is not to make money for the university. The purpose of university housing is to provide an affordable place to live, for students, in light of the fact that we’re only making X amount and they know full well, that we’re only making X amount. And in light of the fact that in many of these communities, I guess it all depends on where you are at college, but for the places that I’ve lived, local housing, regular market housing is extremely expensive. Making it affordable, and then also making it reasonable for adults.

31:34 Travis: I think part of it is also whatever regulations you have — we didn’t really get into this too much — but whatever regulations you have for undergrad housing, keeping in mind, I mean they are legally adults, but you mind certain notions of trying to take care and keep control over the community in loco parentis, and all of that kind of stuff. Simply extending those policies to grad students isn’t the best way, and acknowledging that as grad students, we want to have a full apartment to ourselves, or at least have the option. We want to redecorate our places. We want to be able to have parking. We want to be able to have pets. We want to be able to come and go over the summer or for a whole year and still retain our apartment. Or if we can’t retain our apartment, then work with us as adults, I think is sort of the key point.

32:13 Travis: And again, just working with people in a way that works with us and not against us. I understand there’s a much more complicated conversation about bureaucracy in general, in terms of, if you give people exceptions, then who are you not giving exceptions to? And how is that fair? And what’s the purpose of policies if you’re not going to enforce them and all these kinds of things. Saying you can’t have overnight guests unless officially of your relationship. And then what happens when you have a girlfriend or even just a friend coming? I pay for this apartment, I should be allowed to have people stay. Just various things like that. I think the key point is just making it affordable, making it a place where real adults can live and making it friendly and workable. Making it a place where people are working with you and not against you. It’s kind of the three points I would make.

33:04 Emily: I’m really glad to have your perspective as someone who’s lived in multiple different university-affiliated housing situations like what’s worked well, what have you, what positive things have you seen about it, maybe what things can be changed. It seems to me that one of the main points that you’re making is just that the administration needs to listen to the students, and as you were just saying, treat them like adults. It seems like that at least happened in your experience at UCSB, when the union or the GSA or whichever it was, was heard and actually got that rent lowered, which is an amazing victory. I just really appreciate your perspective on those issues.

Best Financial Advice for Early Career PhDs

33:41 Emily: As we finish up, would you please share with us what your best financial advice is for another early career PhD?

33:48 Travis: Yeah, I think as someone who’s just finished, I’m not sure what kind of advice I can give for other people who have just finished, but for people who are still in the PhD, I think my main advice would just be to keep your eyes out for whatever you can apply to, and kind of be aware of the fellowships and other kinds of resources that are available for you. You can’t spend hours and hours and hours applying to every single thing and investigating every single thing, but be aware of what’s available to you and take advantage of it. If your department offers whether explicitly or sort of implicitly offers that everybody gets summer funding, at least once or offers that everyone gets at least one quarter or two quarters off before the end, make sure you take advantage of that, make sure you do that. Don’t miss the deadlines. Just be aware of what’s out there and be aware of what you’re eligible for, not just in your department, but also in grad div or in School of Humanities or in whatever other things it might be coming from.

34:49 Travis: The other thing I would say is push and advocate and make the professors, make the faculty and administration aware that certain kinds of things are not funded. This is going into a whole other conversation, and I’ll just take one more minute, but for example, at Santa Barbara, I was fortunate to have a certain amount of funding available possible, potential to me for conference travel and for research travel. And that seems very logical from a top down kind of, okay, we’re giving money for conference, traveling for research travel.

35:22 Travis: Well, what about language study and what about things that are not strictly language study? Because I’ve gotten the funding in the past to study, there’s a thing called FLAS, the Foreign Language Area Studies scholarship, which allows you to study modern languages that the government considers to be of strategic value. But then when they find out that you’re studying classical Japanese or classical Chinese, or you’re not really in a language program per se, but you’re doing paleography or how to handle documents or a workshop on how to handle documents. Well, now it’s not language study, so now there’s no funding for that. You need to make people aware that these programs exist and they cost money and you need to have funding for it from some avenue. FLAS won’t pay for it and if conference travel and research travel won’t cover it, what can the department do? What can grad div do to create something that will cover book history workshops, paleography courses, archeology field, school, and so forth.

36:18 Emily: Yeah, it sounds like, again, you’re bringing up the points of being flexible with people. If everyone’s on the same page about what the goals are, then let’s be flexible about the way that we get there. Or just not letting people fall through the cracks. If you create big planks and boards, let’s make sure there aren’t gaps that people are actually falling into between those boards. Thank you so much for adding that Travis, and thank you so much for giving this interview.

36:45 Travis: Thanks so much for having me. This was really wonderful. I really appreciate it.

Outtro

36:48 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

Fully Joint and Fully Separate Finances in Marriage: Perspectives from Two PhDs

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In this episode, Emily discusses marital finances with Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, an assistant professor at Creighton University. Emily and her husband keep fully joint finances, whereas Michelle and her husband keep fully separate finances. They detail their respective systems, list the advantages of each approach, consider how the legal realities line up or not with their preferred conceptions, and consider whether they would ever change their methods. They touch on IRS filing statuses, student loan debt, income shifts, living apart, and the addition of children.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Michelle: Every November, I have these two conferences and I know I’m going to be spending more money around that time. He doesn’t have to think about that at all. And if we had a joint account, we would always have to talk about that. And because we don’t, it’s not a thing that we need to discuss, he just knows that I go on these conferences.

Introduction

00:26 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode three, and today my guest is Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, an assistant professor at Creighton University. Michelle and I discuss our methods for handling finances in our marriages. My husband and I keep fully joint finances, and Michelle and her husband keep fully separate finances. We detail our respective systems, list the advantages of each approach, consider how the legal realities line up with our preferred conceptions, and consider whether we’d ever change our methods. We touch on IRS filing statuses, student loan debt, income shifts, living apart, and the addition of children. Without further ado, here’s my discussion with Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:18 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, and we’re doing a little bit of a different format today than my typical podcast interviews. Michelle and I are actually going to have a discussion today. The topic of our discussion is how to handle money in a relationship. And I was looking for someone to discuss this topic with me because my husband and I have our finances completely joint. And I know that that is not necessarily as common as a model as it used to be. And so I wanted to have someone on who would tell me about a different model. So, Michelle volunteered. She and her husband have separate finances. So, we have those two perspectives represented today. And there’s a third model that won’t be represented, which is the yours, mine, and ours model, which is sort of in between these two.

02:02 Emily: So, I hope you’ll get something from this that’ll be interesting to you. If you are in a relationship, if you handle money together as a couple, hopefully you’ll find some common ground with one or the other of us, or maybe you’ll disagree with both of us and say, “Well, I want to handle things completely differently than these two.” But yeah, that’s the topic for today. So, Michelle, thank you so much for joining me and having this discussion.

02:22 Michelle: Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to talking about this.

02:25 Emily: All right. So, why don’t we start Michelle with a little bit further introduction to you, like your academic and career background and where you live?

02:34 Michelle: Sure. So, I am a clinical psychologist by training. I’m currently living in Omaha, Nebraska, and I am an assistant professor at Creighton University and I’m a licensed clinical psychologist at CHI Health Initiative. I have a PhD from the University of Toledo in Ohio and my husband and I have been moving all across the country, met in undergrad and have been together ever since then. So, he’s been really following me around through all of my steps to get to where I am now. And I think that really factors into how money has been handled in our relationship because he is not a PhD. So, while I’ve been accruing debts and lots of things, that’s not been true for him. We started out as, you know, dating and as roommates before we were ever married. And so, the roommate piece has always been a factor in how we’ve handled money. And I think as we married that never changed because we had already found a system that worked for us.

Timeline for Michelle and Emily’s Relationships

03:49 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. Can you put some dates on this? Maybe I’ll share some dates of my own as well. So, like when did you meet, when did you move or change things in your relationship? Going from dating to living together to marry, those kinds of things?

04:05 Michelle: Yeah, so we met in 2004 and we did not get married until 2016. So, I graduated in May of 2008 from undergrad, moved from Ohio to North Carolina and lived for a year on my own while he was finishing up his degree. And then he moved to North Carolina with me. So, I was a postbac at Duke for three years, we, that sort of started our trajectory on roommates. And then he followed me from Duke to Toledo for my PhD. And we lived in Toledo for four years. And then a requirement for clinical psychologists is that we do a year-long APA accredited internship somewhere in the country. And so, I happened to match at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences. So, we moved from Toledo, Ohio to Little Rock, Arkansas in 2015. And then we got married in the middle of my internship year in 2016. And then from there, we moved from Arkansas back to Ohio for postdoc, where I was a postdoc for four years at Ohio State. And then from Columbus, Ohio to Omaha, Nebraska, and have only lived in Omaha for about two months.

Separate to Joint Finances vs. Maintaining Separate Finances in Marriage

05:40 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That is a lot of moving, but not too unusual right? In the PhD world. So yeah, I’ll share kind of the counterpoint. There’s actually some points of overlap in our story, which is really interesting. So, my husband and I, before we married, Kyle, we graduated from college in 2007. We started dating in 2006 and we lived in different cities for a year. He started at Duke and I did a postbac at the NIH. And then in 2008 in the fall, I moved and started my PhD at Duke. We lived separately for two years until we got married in 2010. So when we got married, moved in, that’s when we combined our finances. So, we went from completely separate to completely joint.

06:30 Emily: Well, there’s a little bit of a transition, but aspiring to be joint when we got married that was in 2010 and it’s been that way since. So, we did have a small period of living apart for a few months when I did a fellowship after I finished my PhD, but we both defended in the summer of 2014. We lived in Durham for another year. I was in DC for part of that year. And then in 2015, we moved from Durham to Seattle. So, that’s kind of our story. And for the listeners, we’re recording this in September, 2019. So, that’s the perspective there. So, we’ve already heard a little bit about the history of like how the handling of the finances for both of us has changed over the course of our relationships. Is there anything else that you want to add to that as to maybe like philosophically, like why you’ve chosen to maintain the system that you had been using all along? Whereas of course I, as I just said, we changed at some point.

07:23 Michelle: Yeah. So, for me personally, my debt that I was accruing was my debt for my education and my career advancement, wasn’t necessarily my husband’s. And yes, I know legally it’s his debt now because we’re married. By not having our finances joint, it makes me feel like it’s still my debt and I’m still working to pay off my debt. And it actually helps me a lot. So, on fellowship, I got an NIH loan repayment grant and I was able to do that pretty easily because I had not consolidated my loans, and his undergrad loans weren’t part of mine and we didn’t have to deal with any of that. And I was told by NIH loan repayment that our finances were much more straightforward and it was easier for them to give me money because they didn’t have any headache with that. So, it was helpful in that regard. We were not thinking about that when we decided not to join accounts.

Benefits of Filing Taxes Jointly as a Married Couple

08:39 Emily: Yeah, sometimes there are unexpected benefits that come up along the way. So, I’m curious, do you guys file taxes married, filing jointly, or married, filing separately?

08:49 Michelle: Jointly.

08:50 Emily: Okay. Because that also, that sometimes affects like this loan repayment, like loan forgiveness stuff, depending on like what program you’re in. Did you want to add to that?

08:58 Michelle: It’s definitely like, we talked about how we were going to do that. And I think because economically we would benefit more from filing jointly as opposed to filing separately. And so that was pretty much the decision. It was more of an economic decision as opposed to a philosophical one, I guess.

09:12 Emily: Yeah, there’s this really strange thing, I guess, in the tax code that it does matter a lot, whether you’re married or not. Right? That’s the sort of defining line is legal marriage, depending on how you file. And then there’s a real disadvantage to married filing separately. I mean, there are some conditions under which some people choose to do that, but it’s not at all the same to do married, filing separately as it is when you’re not married. Like those are two vastly different treatments under the tax code. So, I find that to be very I mean, I’m sure there are reasons for it, but I find it to be kind of puzzling. So, there are sort of very, very special circumstances where it makes sense to do married filing separately, but they’re kind of rare actually, and actually often involve large student loan debts. And that’s one reason that people do file separately.

Advantages of Separate Finances in Marriage

09:59 Emily: Okay. So, I would say for my counterpoint on that, the philosophy or the reasoning behind us joining our finances when we got married was around our understanding of marriage or our idea of what marriage should be. And so, there are certain attributes of a married couple that we believe in. And one of those is joining finances. That’s not to say that everyone has to do it the same way we do, but that’s how we view our marriage. And so, it was important for us to go from not having anything in common before we were married to, after we were married, deciding that everything would be in common. So, let’s get to talking about, kind of like, what are the advantages of the joint finances model and the separate finances model? And please go first.

10:48 Michelle: Okay. So, advantages that I see are control. Control of your own money and how you spend it. Like, I don’t have to ask my husband and he doesn’t have to ask me to spend money. Because we both know what’s in our respective accounts and we are decent money managers. And so, we’re not necessarily consulting eachother about money all the time. And in fact, it’s very rare for us to have a discussion about money, or I don’t think we’ve ever fought about money because we’ve never needed to. So, I would consider that definitely a pro because finances are a common theme for stress and tension and marriage, and by us having separate accounts, I’m never needing to have that discussion with him because the bills that I pay are paid and it’s on my own volition and what he’s paying is on his and I never have to track that.

11:50 Emily: So, I have kind of a follow-up question about that, which is so at some points you do have to make decisions around money like where to live, for example. So, do you just eat sort of assess your own budgets and so forth and say, “Okay, this is how much I can spend on the next place that we live.” And you both just kind of agree on a number, is that right?

Separate Finances, Shared Vision and Life Goals

12:08 Michelle: Yes. Yeah. In general, we know, so we have, even though our finances are separate, we have shared goals for our life. So, our goal right now is to live like a postdoc, even though I’ve started my career. And with the goal of paying off my student loans and our credit card debt, so that we can then save for a house and just have a better life down the line. And so, we both share that vision, but how we go about getting to that vision is a little bit different because our accounts are separate.

12:46 Emily: Yeah. I’m really glad that you clarify that. That like, the vision is united. And the, as you were just saying, I thought you put that very well. The methods by which you each get there financially could be separate, but you’ve agreed on kind of where you’re headed. And so, you do aspire to own a house together. It sounds like.

13:05 Michelle: I think so. That’s a goal one day.

13:08 Emily: Okay. Gotcha. Any other advantages? I mean, that’s a big one.

13:12 Michelle: I mean, that for me is the biggest one. And just a sense for my just having my own autonomy within my relationship. I think that’s an important value for me as a person. And so, I get to have that. And my husband supports that because we have a very, like our philosophy on marriage is very much partner-focused and that we’re in it together. And that neither one of us is, you know, the owner of the other. We don’t have that kind of philosophy. And I think that reflects true in our finances. And I find that as an advantage.

Advantages of Joint Finances

13:55 Emily: Yeah, definitely. I thought of a couple of advantages to the joint system. So, one is complete simplicity. We have one checking account, both of our names on it. We have a set of savings accounts that both of our names are on. As I said, the credit cards are a little bit more complicated. Some of those, we have both of our names on there’s like one or two on each of our sides that we only have one, mostly because the other one might sign up later to get the parks as well. So yeah, to me, that simplicity is there. Now, I’m not sure how you handle this part, but I know that for some people who, for instance, have the yours, mine and ours model, they end up having a joint checking account, separate checking accounts, joint savings, separate savings, maybe joint credit cards, maybe separate credit cards. And also there’s a lot of transferring going on. So, I don’t know, like when you pay your bills, for example, do you, like one is responsible–like, how do you handle, I guess the transferring that might need to go on? Or do you avoid that?

14:47 Michelle: Yeah, so for bills, I, in fact, up until this move, had handled all of the bill paying, and so I would pay the bills every month and then we would split finances. So, he would literally write me a check, and then I would deposit that into my account and make sure all the bills got paid. This move, because of all the stress and things in my own world that were happening around this move, he actually took some ownership on setting up some of our bills for this new move. And so, now he’s responsible for some bills that I would have previously been paying, and that seems to be working out okay. It’s just what he’s paying and then gets deducted from what he would owe for the rest of his half.

15:35 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. So there still is some, when you live together and you have shared expenses, you still have to do some of this transferring or somehow decide how to split it up. So, one advantage of joint finances, is the simplicity. Oh, and when we get paid, like all of our money goes into that checking account. Although, you know, come to think of it. My business is something that’s separate, because the business is not in my name alone. But when I pay myself from my business, that goes into our joint checking. And I’m not like spending out of the business for personal stuff, obviously. So, kind of once it is entering into our personal finances it’s joint. So, that’s one advantage is the simplicity. Not having to do the transfers.

Complete Transparency and Agreement

16:14 Emily: And then another one is complete transparency. So, this is not something that necessarily everyone desires, but we do. And so, obviously because everything’s joint, we both have complete access to everything and there’s no, basically there’s no way that any of us could keep a secret from the other without going and opening another account. That obviously could happen. Like, logistically one of us could do that. But in terms of what we know about, we can all see everything. And actually, so in addition to actually like literally sharing the accounts in terms of his name or on them, we also have a Mint account that we share where everything goes into that. And so that was actually helpful. We started that Mint account sort of, you know, as we were getting married and joining everything. So, for the things that were separate, that we didn’t like close down right away, they were all in Mint anyway. So, we could each see what was going on, even if like, you know, that random other account was still open for a little while. So, I liked that aspect of transparency a lot. To me, another feature of joint finances is that you have to agree on everything. But of course the corollary to that is that if you don’t agree, then there’s friction, then there are problems. As you were just saying, by keeping things separate, you really minimize kind of the, the level.

17:30 Emily: Like if you agree on the big picture, like the details, whatever it’s separate, who cares as long as you’re both adhering to the shared vision, I really liked how you phrased that. But for us, it’s sort of a feature that we have to agree about everything. Like I know other people view that as like a downside, but we do have to agree on everything or agree to disagree. Right? And agree to let one another have some autonomy in our decision making and just not care. And of course we’ll still see it. As I said, with the transparency. I think this was more important to us, or it was more of a factor like us having to agree on things earlier in our marriage, because we were both in graduate school. So, we weren’t earning as much money as we are now.

18:12 Emily: And our expenses, we were just a lot more like strict around budgeting and so forth. I mean, by necessity, right? We had to be, so the incomes were lower. So, we had to agree there wasn’t really, there wasn’t really a lot of fat in the budget. Right? And so everything had–not everything, because we agreed on a lot of things automatically–but if there were any points of disagreement, we had to force ourselves to come to an agreement. Or again, agree to disagree and just spend what we will.

Both Spending Models Encourage Conversations About Finances

18:36 Emily: So, I remember like early on in our marriage, I’m a bit of a natural spender. It’s something I’ve had to kind of curb over time, especially during graduate school. And my husband could not understand. We were going to all these weddings, right? Because we were in our mid twenties, we had just gotten married. We were going to a lot of weddings. My husband could not understand why I needed a new dress for, not like literally every event, but like a lot of events. I was like telling him, “I need to buy a new dress for this.” He was like, “I’m wearing the same suit to every single one of these events.” And I was like, “Well, this is a day wedding. And this is an evening wedding. You have to consider the season and the temperature and like the fanciness level.” And so I was trying to tell him all these reasons why I had to like buy all these new dresses. And he ultimately like, did not really understand it, but he just had to like, kind of accept it for a while. And so, that was an example of sort of an ongoing, not like fight, but just like sort of puzzlement on his side of why I was making these decisions.

19:27 Emily: But what that did though, is it kind of forced him, I think, to understand something about women and women’s fashion and the constraints and the expectations that we’re under. And it also forced me ultimately, you know, I didn’t keep up that dress-buying habit for more than a few years. And so, it also kind of forced me to be like, “Well,” rethink, like, “Do I really need all these new clothes for all these new events?” And so, it was a reason for us to kind of evolve our, I guess, thinking or understanding of each other and that kind of thing. So anyway, some short-term conflicts sometimes, but I liked that we are ultimately forced to agree and work things out. So to me, that’s a feature. And then the last feature, did you want to add anything there?

20:08 Michelle: I think just, as a counter perspective, by having separate accounts, it’s actually forced us to talk about finances more than if we had a joint–and maybe not more, but in a different way. So, I like you, Emily, am more of a spender and I have to really be conscientious about saving. Whereas my husband is very frugal and he would never spend money if he could get away with that. And so, it’s more like I’m talking to him as a confidant about money and, “Okay, so I’m really, I’m considering, you know, I love shoes and I think I need a new pair of tennis shoes,” and then he’ll reflect back and say, “Well, do you really? And how are these shoes going to help you with whatever?” And sometimes I’ll listen and I’ll say, “Okay, yeah, you’re right. I probably don’t need these shoes.” And it’s more of a partnership piece as opposed to a necessity. Like, I don’t need his opinion or his approval for me to buy this thing, but I I’m seeking it because I value his input. And in some ways that’s strengthened our relationship.

21:26 Emily: Yeah. So, even though you don’t have to, at the end of the day, you do choose to, I mean, you said earlier, you don’t talk about money much, but it sounds like maybe you talk around it a little bit. Like money affects a lot of things in our lives. And so, it’s kind of hard to go without discussing it at all, at least in an oblique manner. But what I like about what you’re saying is that like you’re still bringing it up and bringing whatever the decision is out into the open. And ultimately at the end of the day, it’s still your decision, but you are seeking his opinion or his counsel. Yeah. I really like that.

Advantage of Joint Finances: Navigating Income Disparities

21:57 Emily: The last advantage that I thought of for having joint finances is that it doesn’t matter who earns what. So, like when my husband and I were in graduate school, we earned about the same amount of money. So, not really huge concerns there. Right? Two people, two incomes that were pretty much the same feels like equal, right? After graduate school, I became self-employed. My income went down–right?–initially and then has risen over time. But his income increased because he got a proper job, a proper post-PhD job. And so, he saw an income jump, and I saw initially an income decrease. And it didn’t matter, like there wasn’t tension around that. And also the decisions that we had to make, like, for example, when you were saying earlier about, okay, you need to come to an agreement on where to live. So, like had we had separate finances under that situation, it would be like, well, I almost can’t contribute anything like to the household or very little, and he would be contributing a lot.

22:57 Emily: Under the joint model, we don’t concern ourselves with that because the money all just is shared. And so, whatever we can budget and afford on the completely combined income is what is going to happen, you know, for our family. And I guess I should say that basically, had we had separate finances and were committed to both contributing, for instance, equally to the household, then I just wouldn’t have started my business. It just, it wouldn’t have happened that way or wouldn’t have happened at that time. Like I would have gone and gotten a job and had an income more equal to what his was or close to. Yeah. And so, I think that the joint finances model has actually helped me like follow my dream. Right? As starting this business. And likewise for him, like he took a job at a startup, which we know at any point the ride could be over, right?

23:51 Emily: It’s an early-stage startup. And so, I guess of course he could have like saved maybe and provided for him self, I guess, in the event of job loss or something, if that’s what an emergency fund is for. But I guess we sort of have more like peace of mind knowing there’s like two incomes going into this pot and, you know, the expenses would be paid like from those two incomes. And again, it doesn’t really matter who’s earning what. So, that’s, again, our philosophy on that. And, I guess I should also mention, we have two children and especially early on in their lives, I was doing a lot more of the childcare. So, my income was lower. I was doing a lot more of the, sort of the work for the household. Right? That was unpaid.

24:29 Emily: And he was doing more of the earning, like outside the household. And that situation has changed now, like my income has risen and we have more childcare now. So, we might be able to handle things differently if we wanted to. But I feel like at that time joint finances were really necessary because the contributions that I was making the household were not reflected in income as much. So yeah, I guess it depends also on like sort of life stage and if both people are working or what decisions are around that, but there’s, I feel like extreme advantages to the joint finances model in certain configurations of income disparities. Right?

25:04 Michelle: Yeah. And I think it might be helpful to know. So, with every transition and are, and new we’ve always moved for my career. And so, the move I was able to start working and earning right away. My husband has followed me. So, every move he’s had to find a job. And so there’s been periods of time at every step where he’d been unemployed and was living on savings until he found a job. And that is currently true for us as we just moved two months ago. So, he’s still he’s looking and does not have a job. And so, knowing that, you know, he’s set up savings, and also this piece of this transition has been around, “Okay, now my income is a lot higher than what his will be when he gets a job. And so then how do we balance bills?” Yes, jointly we have more money, but what he can contribute is less than what I could contribute. And so, we’ve talked about paying a percentage of whatever our bills are. So, if we’re going for right now, our finances are exactly the same as they were on postdoc. And so it’s easy to do what we were doing previously, but as we transition in the next few years to basically growing and towards home ownership, we might be able to afford a house that he wouldn’t be able to afford on his income alone. And so, then that’ll be a discussion of like how we’re going to handle that.

Commercial

26:52 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early-career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics, or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers, even while social distancing. Now, back to our interview.

Disadvantages of Joint and Separate Finances

27:51 Emily: So, that was kind of the end of my list of advantages that I see in joint finances. Was there anything that you wanted to add as like maybe disadvantages of your system? Disadvantages of my system, except if they haven’t already been covered by highlighting advantages of one or the other?

28:07 Michelle: I mean, the disadvantage of the separate model is around these transitions when your finances change substantially. And now it’s a matter of us having this discussion. Whereas, like you said, with the joint model, you wouldn’t have to do that if it’s built in.

28:28 Emily: One disadvantage of joint finances that I often see brought up. I don’t personally experience it, but a lot of people will bring up, what do you do about gifts? You know, what do you want to do when you want some secrecy, but it’s for the benefit right, of the other person and for that joy of gift giving? And I don’t experience this as an issue myself and I have some like, ideas about workarounds, basically. Like, sort of in my mind, if your only hangup about joint finances is gifts, there are easy ways to get around that and still have the totally joint model. If gifts are among other reasons why you don’t like the model, then that that’s fine. That can factor in. But like after I receive the gift and I was like, “How did you pull that off?” He’s like, “Oh, I know you check Mint. So, I did it on this random card that I just didn’t update from Mint.” So, that’s very tricky. I think an easier solution is just to use cash. Just take out cash and say, “Oh, I need some cash for some reason, don’t inquire too hard.” Or, “Oh, I’m buying you a gift, but you don’t know what it is yet.”

29:31 Emily: Or go to a place like Target or Amazon where you might be buying any kind of thing and let it be a secret for the time being. So, you might need to get a little bit tricky around gift-giving or at least having an agreement of like, you know, “I won’t look at that for a little while, while you’re getting me a gift.” But to me it seems like a pretty minor, I guess, speed bump in the model for joint finance. But it’s one that comes up a lot. So, I wanted to kind of address that.

29:57 Michelle: Unless, of course, your love language is gift giving and then it’s a very big deal. And so, I could see that being more important or more impactful to defining whether to have a joint account.

30:13 Emily: Yeah, I think that’s probably where, if it was something you were doing on a very regular basis, like every month or something like that, I can see–so, there’s sort of a subset of joint finances which is like joint with allowances. And so, your allowance could come out in cash so the other person doesn’t know what you do with it. Or it could even be two separate checking accounts, but your income goes into joint account. And then the separate account gets the, whatever it is, a hundred dollars a month, whatever your allowance is. And so, that’s a way that you can regularly keep some money from your spouse seeing it while still maintaining the spirit of the joint model. But of course, yeah, the bigger the component of your life this is, the more it argues that you need to have a specific system around figuring this out, which we obviously do not.

Unique Situations for Money Management as PhDs in a Relationship

31:02 Emily: One of the last questions here, Michelle, are there any attributes or situations unique to PhDs that might inform the choice of how to manage money in a relationship? So, I thought about living apart, which I mentioned earlier, my husband and I lived apart only for about three months. So, it was very short period of time a few years ago. But I have had friends, PhDs, sometimes two PhD couples, sometimes just one PhD couple, that have been living apart for years at a time because of training and stuff. You’ve been very fortunate and very supported that your husband has been following you around. Not everyone is able or willing to do that. So yeah, I guess I can see that this might inform the decision, right? Because the more, I guess separation you have like living in one place versus another, I think the more that supports the separate, or at least partially joint, partially separate models. Because as you were saying earlier, like you don’t have to, you do, but you don’t have to consult with your husband on decisions. That doesn’t really affect him, what you do with your own finances.

32:07 Emily: So to me, that model makes a lot of sense when the day-to-day decisions don’t really involve both of you. Right? And only involves one of you. And so, I felt that a little bit. I mean, again, I was only apart from my husband for a few months, but yeah, like what I did on a daily basis, the shopping or the eating out or whatever, like he wasn’t involved in any of that. So, it was a little bit odd that, you know, the money was still coming from our joint account. And so, I think that we did have a little bit less like sort of communication around what was going on. Like he just sort of was like, well, basically by that point, like we knew each other’s spending habits. And as long as we weren’t going outside of that, it didn’t really need to come up that much. But yeah, it was kind of odd to be like living in it in a different place and still withdrawing from that joint bank account. But you know, it was just a short period of time. So for us, it wasn’t, it didn’t warrant like changing the model, but yeah, I can see how there’s a reason to be a little bit more separate if your lives are kind of separate.

33:05 Michelle: I would say that’s pretty true for us. My husband’s not a PhD, not an academic by any means. And the culture around being a PhD and, you know, having to go to conferences and networking and sort of the things we spend money on that we wouldn’t spend money on if we weren’t PhDs, that’s very real for us. Because there are many times where I’m like, “Okay, so every November I have these two conferences and I know I’m going to be spending more money around that time.’ He doesn’t have to think about that at all. And if we had a joint account, we would always have to talk about that. And because we don’t, it’s not a thing that we need to discuss. He just knows that I go on these conferences and I’m still able to pay the bills. And it’s just made things a little bit smoother, I think. And he hasn’t needed to learn the culture of being a PhD because we have these separate accounts around money.

34:08 Emily: Yeah. That’s a really good point that like, especially PhD training and even, I guess, could be as a professor to some degree as well, there are certain demands that are made of your personal finances that would not be made if you were not a trainee or an academic. And that’s super unfortunate, but the reality. And so, like you said, he doesn’t need to be fully indoctrinated in the way that we are into how academia affects your personal finances because you have things separate. Yeah, that makes sense. I didn’t think about that. That we do have to pay for more things out of pocket than maybe somebody else would in another kind of career, wow.

34:53 Michelle: Conferences, memberships for different societies and things like that. But, you know, I can only imagine if we were to actually have a joint account, he would be like, “Why do you need to spend a hundred dollars on this membership, tell me how that’s going to benefit you in your everyday life? And the answer is, “It doesn’t really, but it does help me network and that will help advance my career.” And, you know, we don’t have to have that conversation.

PhD Finances: Handling Changes in Income

35:22 Emily: Yeah. Very, very interesting. The other one that I thought of regarding PhD finances is changes in income. So you, for example, have gone from needing to take out student loan debt and so forth to having a very nice salary, presumably now, and maybe other PhDs have less dramatic swings, but usually the completion of PhD training does involve hopefully a pay raise at some point, probably a big one. So that’s just been, I don’t know how that would maybe affect advantages of one model or another, but it just does affect how you handle your finances in general. And you mentioned earlier living like a postdoc, which is a great sort of mantra to live like a college student, live like a graduate student, live like a postdoc, live like a resident. These are all meaning the same thing of live well below your means and maintaining your prior lifestyle even through income increases.

36:12 Emily: So, it’s just a good kind of personal finance strategy in general. I guess this might play a little bit into what I was mentioning earlier about income disparity. Like between me and my husband, we went from being more equal incomes to be more, at a time, more disparate. And yeah. So, if PhD do experience, let’s say hopefully a jump in income, having the joint model can be helpful, I guess, in the sense that like, you’re, I guess you’re kind of in it to gather because at a point when maybe one person isn’t contributing as much to the household, that can be sort of smoothed out, I guess over time by the other person’s income being more like stable or something like that. And the other thing is that there is an upside usually to PhD finances, which is that jump in income later. And so both people benefit from the upside, like you were talking about earlier, like you’re talking about how you and your husband together, the household might benefit from your now great increase in income by perhaps splitting the percentage a little bit differently with the joint model that sort of comes baked in, right?

37:18 Emily: Like both people enjoy the upside, but they also are together on the downside. So there’s, yeah. There are two parts of that. Just something to think about, I guess, with PhDs and those income swings is what you would prefer. I wouldn’t necessarily say it argues more for one or the other, but just something to consider.

37:36 Michelle: For us, my debt is a detriment to us buying a house, but my income increase is the asset. And so, the way that we’ve kind of balanced that is pay down my debt, which I’m doing and I’m taking ownership of, right? Because it’s mine, it’s, you know, our separate accounts, and he doesn’t ever have to think about that necessarily. While at the same time I’m paying down debt, he can take his income and stack it away in savings. And so, eventually what he’s been able to save will help us buy a house and my income level will help us buy a house.

Would You Consider Changing Your Finance Model?

38:18 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. So, you’re contributing, but it’s in like different ways kind of in the future. Yeah. That’s interesting. So, Michelle, do you see your model changing at any point? Do you foresee any circumstances that might cause you to reconsider this?

38:33 Michelle: I don’t think so. I don’t think so. It’s been working so well for 15 years that it’s hard to imagine a time when we would need to do something different.

38:46 Emily: Yeah. You guys have you have it down pat now, right?

38:49 Michelle: Yeah.

38:50 Emily: Yeah. I think on our side as I said, kind of earlier, as our income has increased as a household, we have more flexibility. Like, I sort of phrase it as when we had a lower income, we were much more strict about our budgeting and we had to agree a lot more. Now we have a little bit more autonomy because our income is higher. Like, if we want to do more discretionary spending. So, my husband’s really into buying electronics. Before we had sort of a strict budget on that. And I didn’t really care as long as he stayed within the budget, but it was kind of a low budget. Now, it’s more like, “Okay, you want to buy something?” He’ll talk to me about it. But ultimately I’m just like, “Well, if you want it, go ahead and get it.” We have much more flexibility now. And so that’s kind of, I guess, changed like our attitudes about it. I mean, everything is still joint and it’s still sort of a decision, but we just have a lot more freedom, I guess, both of us do to do more spending, should we choose to, or should we desire to.

39:48 Emily: I think that we will probably stick with the joint model because philosophically, it’s kind of like, we’re married, so we’re going to be joint. I’m not really opposed to the yours, mine and ours thing if it’s under the allowance model that I mentioned earlier. If maybe like, “Okay, you have a few hundred dollars a month, you can do whatever you want with and go ahead and I don’t need to know about it.” Like I can maybe see us moving to that at some point, but I don’t know necessarily why it would happen because it’s not something that causes friction for us right now. So, I don’t think it would in the future. But if it did, I’m okay with that allowance sort of system of it. I definitely don’t see us moving to being fully separate at any point, or even to the point where we would have our incomes be like deposited separately.

40:31 Emily: Because I just think, especially now that we have kids, it’s just the family, it’s just the household, like everything’s together. So yeah, I think the model will more or less stay as it is. Yeah. So, you know, Michelle, I appreciate you having this discussion with me so much and I hope the listeners have heard something that they resonated with for your model or for the model that I use or something that they disagree with and it’ll help them decide how things are going. It seems like things are really working well for you. So, I’m super happy about that. And obviously I feel that way about how things are working for us too. So, it just shows that, you know, people are different, relationships are different and how you handle your finances. It might look different. Like we, you know, we started off saying, okay, you do separate an I do joint. This is like, these are extremes on a spectrum. But really we can see that in both cases, the relationship has a shared vision of where we’re going in the future and agrees to a great deal, whether talked about or not, generally is an agreement with how things need to go. And yeah, the mechanics of it look a little bit different, but there’s a lot of commonality here as well. So, I was really happy to hear that. Any concluding thoughts from you?

41:34 Michelle: I would agree. I think both models can be effective and I think it ultimately will come down to what you value in your relationship. And as a person, that’s what’s going to drive your decision-making about what model you choose.

41:52 Emily: Yup, definitely. So, thank you so much Michelle.

41:54 Michelle: You’re welcome. Thank you.

Outtro

41:58 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Postdoc from a Low-Income Family Evolved Her Financial Attitudes and Practices During Her PhD Training

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Fushcia Hoover, a postdoc at the National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center. Fushcia grew up in a low-income family and graduated from college in 2009. Unable to find full-time work, she accelerated her plans to pursue graduate school, ultimately earning a PhD from Purdue University and winning an NSF Graduate Research Fellowship. Fuschia’s background imparted her with certain financial attitudes and skills that influenced her financial journey through her PhD and postdocs. On the positive side, she already knew how to keep her expenses low and she had enough discretionary income from her stipend to pay off her undergrad student loans, even while sending money home to her mother. On the negative side, she was unfamiliar with investing and understandably gun-shy after witnessing the stock market crash. Fushcia and Emily discuss how her financial attitudes and practices evolved during her PhD and first postdoc and why and how she negotiated her salary for her second postdoc position.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Fushcia: As a graduate student, postdoc, there’s this expectation that we just kind of have to accept things as they are. And, certainly in some cases, yes, that’s true. But I think in a lot of cases, there are always things that are negotiable and that are malleable. And I think a lot of that comes down to recognizing how valuable you are, not just as a person, but also as the work and your contribution.

Introduction

00:35 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode two, and today my guest is Dr. Fushcia Hoover, a postdoc at the National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center. Fuschia grew up in a low income family and graduated from college into the depths of the great recession. Those experiences, and parted her with certain financial attitudes and skills that influenced her financial journey through her PhD and postdocs. On the positive side, she already knew how to keep her expenses low, and she had enough discretionary income from her stipend to pay off her undergrad student loans. On the negative side, she was unfamiliar with investing and understandably gun shy after witnessing the stock market crash. Fushcia and I discuss how her financial attitudes and practices evolved during her PhD and first postdoc, and why and how she negotiated her salary for her second postdoc position. You absolutely do not want to miss her concluding words of encouragement for all PhDs, but especially those in marginalized groups. By the way we recorded this interview in October, 2019. Without further ado. Here’s my interview with Dr. Fushcia Hoover.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:54 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Fushcia Hoover, tnd she’s going to be Talking to us about her background, coming from a low income family and ultimately entering graduate school and a couple of different postdocs. And what she has picked up and learned about finances along the way and the work she’s done on her own mindset. I’m really excited about this episode. Fushcia, thank you so much for joining me, and will you tell the audience a little bit more about yourself please?

02:17 Fushcia: Thank you so much for having me I’m happy to be here. I am a engineer by training. My graduate degrees are all from Purdue University, Ag and Bioengineering, but I actually got my degrees from an interdisciplinary program, the ecological sciences and engineering program at Purdue. And so a lot of my research that I do now, as well as my dissertation work, looks at both social and ecological aspects of storm water management and the way green spaces and green infrastructure can be used to reduce runoff during rainfall events, but then what are the different environmental justice potential impacts. Then recently I have also started incorporating black geography theory, which looks a bit more at the way that people and places are connected and the historical and cultural connections between those two, and what that means in terms of storm water management planning and where we place green spaces and green infrastructure. That’s kind of where I’m at now, so I like to call myself, well, it always changes, but currently I call myself a socio-ecological systems hydrologist.

03:45 Emily: That is so fascinating, that the arc of your work has gone in that direction, from the technological to the more sociological. Okay, great. And so you said you have your all degrees from Purdue, bachelors through PhD, is that right?

04:00 Fushcia: No. My bachelor’s is actually from the University of St. Thomas, which is based in Saint Paul, Minnesota, where I originally am from and grew up. That degree was mechanical engineering, as my bachelor’s. And then I also had a minor in Middle Eastern studies. I’ve always been interested in balancing my science and the technical work that I do with more social and cultural components. That’s where I started and I’ve just been traveling the Midwest sense, but now I’m on the East coast.

04:34 Emily: Yeah. So tell us about your positions that you’ve had since you’ve finished.

04:39 Fushcia: Yeah, so I finished in 2017. My first postdoc was through the National Academy of Sciences. And that’s called National Research Council graduate fellowship, or post graduate fellowship, I believe. That was based at the Environmental Protection Agency in Cincinnati, Ohio. I was there for a year and eight months, so almost two years. Then, my contract for that ended, and my boss and I weren’t sure if there was going to be additional funding, so I had been applying to other postdocs, one of which is the one I’m currently in, which is with the, this is very long, so bear with me, the National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, um, or SESYNC for short, and that’s in Annapolis, Maryland. So both very research focused. All I do is research. At the time I wasn’t interested in going into academia. Things have changed since. Then I worked in this position with Sarah Moreau, who is a faculty at Arizona State University.

05:52 Emily: Gotcha. So interesting that you just dropped in there that you’re now more interested in academia than you were before. People don’t usually go in that direction, but not the subject of our interview today. I’ll have to follow-up about that another time.

Growing up in a Low-Income Family

06:05 Emily: Let’s take a step back even further to your childhood and then basically your time going through college and up until you entered graduate school. Just really briefly, what was your financial experience during that time?

06:18 Fushcia: My mom is a single parent and I have a twin sister as well, so it was the two of us and our mom. We grew up in a single parent households and we had been low income for the duration of my childhood into early adulthood. Certainly for anyone that is from, I think either one of those demographics, there was a lot of like coupons and buying things either on sale or clearance or discount. On and off throughout growing up, we would have access to food stamps, depending on what my mom’s specific financial situation was at the time. The great thing about growing up in Minnesota was that there were and are amazing social services. In terms of basic needs like healthcare, we were on the free and reduced lunch program, we always had all those things. So it actually took me a very long time to realize that we were low income because of that. It was, I think until seventh grade, when I realized that lunch wasn’t free. I just thought that was a service everybody got and people who brought their lunch, that was just a preference. I really grew up in that environment of saving and being very conscious about spending.

07:53 Fushcia: My mom was also very open with us in terms of explaining why we could only get things on sale, but I think the child, part of me was still like, well, if she wanted to, we could get this, but she’s just being a mom. You know, “parents are mean” type of childhood mentality. It wasn’t until I got older, I was like, “Oh yeah, that makes sense.”

Loans and Scholarships During Undergrad

08:21 Emily: Yeah. Thanks for telling us about that. Then, when you got to college, what was the situation then? You mentioned the school that you went to, but was it private or public, and how did you fund it?

08:34 Fushcia: It’s the largest private university in the state of Minnesota, and I was fortunate there was a college access program and I was part of in high school called College Possible. I made my sister join as well, so we were both part of the program and it helped teach us about scholarships, applying for college, doing college visits, as well as like practicing the ACT, which is what most of the Midwest takes as the college entrance exam. I think I had applied to between 20 and 30 scholarships as a senior, and then the ones that I was awarded, combined with, I received a full tuition scholarship from the University of St. Thomas based on my academic record and I’d done a lot of community service as a high school student as well. So through that, I was actually receiving refund checks, which is pretty rare.

09:45 Fushcia: A big part of the conversation my mom had with us in terms of college was that she could not afford to send us to college and she could not afford to co-sign on a loan. So my sister and I were very diligent about then seeking out money and applying for scholarships and finding resources that could help us pay our way, or in my case get paid, through college. I took out two loans, one for my last semester of college, and then for a January term study abroad. When I finished, I had about $7,000 in debt and that was all within Sallie Mae at the time, so one was subsidized and one was un-subsidized.

10:40 Emily: That is really good. I mean, to have access to that program, first of all, maybe that was part and parcel with the general great services you had access to in Minnesota, but yeah, that set you up amazingly and to of course then put in the work and get the scores and do the scholarships and everything that, I mean, it’s clear why that happened and why you ended up in that position. So your tuition, you had a scholarship. You had enough scholarships coming in to cover the room and board and so forth, so that you’re actually receiving at sometimes a little bit of money back. Then you took out some small student loans for part of that experience. So coming out of college, about $7,000 worth of student loans and you didn’t go immediately to graduate school, is that right?

11:19 Fushcia: Yeah, that’s correct. And I actually forgot, I did have, I think it was maybe like a $3,000 loan from Wells Fargo, which, well, maybe I can save this for the end as one of my pieces of advice, but at the time I didn’t know about kind of self-loans or just the loan system. My checking and savings were through Wells Fargo, and I was like, “okay”, not knowing that that doesn’t allow you to defer your loan and that the rates are higher.

11:52 Fushcia: When I graduated, in 2009, which if you remember, was kind of the peak of the financial crisis.

12:03 Emily: Yeah, the worst year to be graduating.

12:05 Fushcia: Yes, it was a horrible year to graduate. I didn’t have a job. I had started working part time for a program that I was a part of while at St. Thomas. And then I had transitioned into working for a program called AVID or the Advancement Via Individual Determination, which was located in the public — well, it’s a national program, but I specifically worked within the Saint Paul public school system. Tthat was part time as well. So I was doing that, I had moved back home, I was living with my mom and barely able to pay my $50 a month minimum for my Wells Fargo loan. I had been able to put it into forbearance for six months. That was the only thing that they would allow me to do. It was actually a very…I was very stressed. Thankfully, living with my mom helped cut down on a lot of expenses, but it was a lot of penny pinching. I think my income was maybe $500 a month, before taxes. So, trying to give my mom something and then basically pay for my cell phone and basic expenses and then this loan. That was my financial situation upon graduating.

Starting Graduate School in the Midst of the Great Recession

13:39 Emily: And did the difficulty in finding work of that year, the peak year, did that play in your decision to go to graduate school or had that always been the plan?

13:48 Fushcia: I’d always wanted to go to graduate school. I did not want to go right away. I was really mentally and emotionally exhausted after undergrad.

13:59 Emily: I know that feeling.

14:01 Fushcia: Yes, and I think a lot of us have those feelings even after grad school as well. I think the only difference was that I went to grad school sooner than if I would have had a full time job. I worked part time for almost two years before going back to grad school, because I also wanted to make sure that I wanted to go back and I didn’t know what I wanted to go back for quite yet. I knew I wanted to stay within engineering, but I didn’t know…I knew a lot of what I didn’t want to do. I took that time to figure out the programs and the schools of interest and what my potential research interests could be.

14:49 Emily: Gotcha. So when you entered graduate school, was that actually an increase in your income from working, I guess it’s still part time technically in graduate school, but was your income higher than at that point?

15:02 Fushcia: It was. It’s funny, a lot of people talk about how poor graduate students are and how we’re going to pay, and we are. I certainly agree that for the work that we’re doing, all graduate students should be paid more. But it was such a jump in income for me. I think especially going into an engineering program at Purdue, I think my monthly income was about $2,500 per month. All of a sudden, not only did I have a higher income, but I also had a dependable income. And it was an income that I was going to be getting, regardless of my hours that I put it in. That was the first time being on a salary, and having something that I was like, “okay, wow, I can pay my bills, I can pay my loans, and that’s not something that I’m going to have to worry about. Where’s this money going to come from? Am I going to make my minimum payment this month?” It was a big relief for me in a lot of ways.

16:13 Emily: Yeah. And I would imagine that stipend goes pretty far in Lafayette, Indiana, does it not?

Employing Frugal Strategies in Grad School

16:19 Fushcia: Oh yes, it does. And I very much…I had two roommates, I didn’t have a car either. I had a bicycle, so I was pretty much biking or Lafayette, if you’re a student, or basically if you are affiliated with Purdue and you have a Purdue ID, then you get to take the public transportation system for free, so I wasn’t having to spend money there. It was really just groceries and utilities and rent split between three people. I found a lot of ways to reduce the amount of expenses that I had because then I had also then started sending money back to my mom. I was sending her about $300 every month. Definitely trying to funnel resources and reduce costs.

17:09 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you took a lot of the the strategies that you’d been using prior to that point, and also some of the mindsets you’d had to that point. That was what you applied right then. You found the low cost living situation, you used the public transit instead of owning a car, so you really reduce your expenses right off. But it sounds like still, even with sending your mom money, you probably had a good bit of discretionary money to be working with, above the bills that needed to be paid. What did you start doing in your personal finances at that point? What did you have to learn about since you now finally have this discretionary money to do what you want with? What did you learn about what did you apply in your life?

Paying off Student Loans During Graduate School

17:49 Fushcia: It’s funny, I had taken a financial literacy workshop before I started graduate school, and that was more focused on like budgeting and saving and negotiating whether you pay off credit card debt first, or if you have student loans and how you prioritize your debts. The biggest thing, aside from sending money home to my mom was that I started making monthly payments on the undergraduate loans that I had. I targeted the Wells Fargo private loan first, and then —

18:28 Emily: I just have a follow up about that. Were those loans, at least maybe the federal ones, in deferment at that point?

18:34 Fushcia: They were, yes.

18:36 Emily: And what about the Wells Fargo one? Was that in deferment?

18:38 Fushcia: No, the Wells Fargo, my forbearance had ended after the first six months, from me finishing my undergrad degree. I had only been making $50 a month payments, so you can imagine on a $3,000 loan, that’s not very much. So I kicked that up and I think I started making either between $150 and $200 loan payments every month. So about $500 every month was going to this one particular loan and then my mom. Then the rest that was remaining after bills and rent, I was just putting into savings or using for other expenses like going out to eat or going home for the holidays, things like that.

19:34 Emily: What I like to call irregular expenses.

19:37 Fushcia: Yes, irregular expenses.

19:38 Emily: The ones that can really mess up your cashflow if you try to pay for them in just one month. How long did it take you then? Did you just keep working in paying down those loans straight before adding any other goals to the picture and how long did it take you to pay them off?

19:50 Fushcia: I did. I had paid off my Wells Fargo loan by the end of my masters, so just under two years, and then my government loans, it took about two and a half. I don’t remember if it was two and a half or three years. I think part of the decision why, even though those loans were in deferment, one of them was unsubsidized, so it was gaining interest. And I think because of coming from low income background, and even though I was in this position where I had a steady paycheck, I was still really worried that it would end. Certainly, I knew the degree would end and I wasn’t sure what my income would look like after that, and I didn’t want to have that stress. I think I might’ve been the only one I knew of my friends with loans from undergrad who was actively paying it down.

20:54 Fushcia: That was my goal, was to have zero debt by the time I graduated from Purdue. Pretty much all of the focus was on paying off those loans. Then I would typically have anywhere from like $200 to $400 that I would just put into savings every month.

21:17 Emily: I will say, in my contact with graduate students, some people do, but it’s on the rare side to be working on paying down student loans while in graduate school. I think yours because they’re relatively small, might…I think some people get really defeatist about student loans. Especially if you have more than a hundred thousand dollars or multiple tens of thousands of dollars of student loans, it can feel really, really daunting, and why even bother like getting started on your low salary during graduate school. But I think yours, they were a fraction of what you made in a given year, and so it felt like something that you could tackle, probably. And like you were saying, you had that fear of, well, what if your program ends for whatever reason? Well, then the loans are coming out of deferment, you have to make at least minimum payments, and then what’s your income going to be? You don’t know. That decision definitely makes sense to me.

Commercial

22:12 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

Personal Finance Mindset Shift During and Post-PhD

22:58 Emily: Did you do anything else within your personal finances during graduate school, aside from paying off those loans and then also building up savings?

23:06 Fushcia: No. I had conversations, I talked with a couple of friends who were working about IRAs and investments, but it was all very intimidating. I think for me, at the time, it was easier to just put my money in savings and then I could also see it, and there wasn’t like a fear of losing it. With investments, I think particularly because of being an adult through the stock market crash, and also remembering when Enron went under and people’s entire pensions were lost. I have a, I wouldn’t say a strong distrust, but I would say I’m very kind of apathetic and very wary of different financial institutions. Even Sallie Mae and Freddie Mac and all of those. For me, I was like, “nope, I want to have my money with me, so I’m putting it in my savings account.” By then I had also transferred to a credit union, so I felt a lot more secure about credit unions as financial institutions, int that I’m an owner in this. And I have amplified checking, so then I was getting, I don’t remember what the return is, but it’s a couple percent return. I was like, “okay, I like this. I can make money from my own money.” Even though I had those conversations with a lot of friends who had higher income backgrounds or whose families did, and so these were conversations that they had. It still wasn’t something I felt comfortable really digging into because I think part of me still felt like I didn’t have the financial security yet to start investing.

25:05 Emily: Yeah. It’s interesting. I graduated from college in 2007, so two years before you did, so before the crisis hit and I was safely in graduate school, by the time everything went down. But I took away like a different kind of financial trauma from that whole period, which is that I’m very gun shy about the housing market. I’ve still always been a renter. I have yet to buy my first home. And that’s partially because, while I didn’t personally experience, all the media coverage is about people losing their homes and foreclosures. So while I was very gung ho about getting into the stock market and I was able to experience the rise right after the crash, it’s still is something that lingers with me regarding the housing. It’s just interesting to talk to someone near a similar age who had some witnessing and some stake in everything that happened and what’s lingering.

Investing

25:58 Emily: Actually, maybe you’ve turned this around since then. You were talking about during graduate school, you were nervous to start investing. And I think it actually is really smart to build up the cash savings to get the debt paid off before embarking on that. At what point did you, or have you started to invest?

26:14 Fushcia: I started a few months, maybe six months into my first postdoc. By the time I finished at Purdue, I had about a four month break where I was job searching and then preparing for a move, and I had saved up about maybe $5,000 to $6,000 in savings. One of things that I did start doing was also using credit cards as a way to prepare for high cost expenses. I had opened a card, um, just before I graduated so that it allowed me to have 18 months of 0% APR because I knew I’m not going to have a job. I was at a part time job that I got to cover basic things, but in terms of, I have to move, that card held all of those expenses. Then once I started my postdoc and getting paid, I worked on paying that down, and since I had 18 months, there was no rush. But then, because I was like, “Okay, I have a job.” As an engineer coming in for an NRC, my stipend was $69,000 for the year, which certainly is very high compared to a lot of postdocs, but I think most of the federal agencies, you’re going to see a higher salary, that’s closer to what a full time federal employee would be making

27:55 Emily: And for you in particular that’s over double what you had been making her in graduate school.

27:59 Fushcia: Yes. Well, and I should say that my first year of my master’s I applied for and was awarded a National Science Foundation GRFP, so I think that also really allowed me to focus on my debt because then I was making $30K. I still had to account for the taxes, which was not fun, but compared to my friends in college of liberal arts, who were in English or social science making $13K, that’s a big difference. One of the things that I actually learned from you was while I was in my first postdoc, I joined the National Postdoc Association, and you were a guest. This would have been a couple of years now. I watched your webinar, when you gave a presentation. From that point, I looked more into kind of the difference between an IRA and a independent tax account and figuring out, okay, with NRC, it’s the same thing. They don’t take out taxes. And so then —

29:19 Emily: I’ll jump in there and say, because you were on fellowship, because you were not technically an employee, I’m just explaining for the listener, you wouldn’t have had access to the workplace based retirement account, whatever that would be, that they would offer to their full time employees. So you’re still dealing with a stipend, you still have to handle the taxes manually, and you’re really only tax advantaged retirement option would be an IRA. Nothing was being offered through your employer, because you didn’t have an employer.

29:47 Fushcia: Yes. I was a contractor. I did a little bit of…well, I should say I did a lot of research trying to figure out then where I wanted to open an account. I actually ended up going with an online system called Betterment because I did not have the time to actually look into managing my own investments. I think because so much stuff is online, it also made it easy for me, so then I didn’t have to find an office location to go into. In my postdoc now we are considered faculty of the University of Maryland and the University of Maryland is a state run system, so we actually have mandatory investment portfolios and the portfolio that I chose is through the I don’t remember the, the full meaning, but it’s TIAA.

30:53 Emily: Yeah. I don’t know what it stands for either, but TIAA or TIAA CREF.

30:57 Fushcia: I still have my betterment accounts and I haven’t decided how much I’ll be putting into it. They take out just over 7% from my salary for the TIAA account, so I need to figure out what that balance is going to look like. Now I was like, okay, it’s probably about time. I was a little bit nervous about being older, like 31, and just starting to invest. But I think because I don’t have any debts and because, well I have a little bit of credit card debt, but I also just moved for this postdoc. I think that’s why I was finally at a point where I feel confident that I will have a job and I will continue to have income and that’s not going to be something I’ll be lacking anymore. And so now I can fully invest having confidence in, well the system is still problematic, but I at least have confidence that I’m not going to wake up and be without a job.

Learning Debt Management Strategies

32:12 Emily: You said earlier there were maybe some things that you brought out of your childhood that you had an aversion towards debt. A smart one. But you also maybe weren’t exposed to conversations around investing and IRAs, maybe like some of your peers were. Was there anything else that you kind of felt maybe you were a little bit out of step with other people during graduate school, or during your postdocs regarding personal finance. And anything you had to learn or mindsets to change or overcome?

32:44 Fushcia: I think I definitely learned about the healthy ways that you can use credit cards to manage certain debts. I think that that came from conversations with a close friend when I moved for my postdoc. I opened a card to buffer that, and a lot of that helped and realizing that all debt doesn’t have to be bad. That it can help you create a credit score and debt management techniques and strategies, and build out this financial portfolio that can actually then make you have a higher score and more competitive for other loans and things like that. A lot of that came from conversations with friends who had either taught themselves that, or they learned it by proxy from their parents. Just asking about their debt and how they managed it, and then also asking, are you afraid that you won’t pay it off or are you afraid that it’s going to be there forever? Certainly, I remember an ex of mine, she was like, “Yeah, it’s just going be there, and it’s just this thing that I have, and I’ll make payments, and it sucks, but also I have the education that I wanted to get and I’m in the job that I I think through those conversations, it definitely helps release some of the anxiety and like intense fear around debt.

34:48 Fushcia: Listening to webinars or reading your blog, for example, and just trying to educate myself more, so that I’m more informed and that’s definitely alleviated a lot of the fear and anxiety, but I think I still like coupons, I still like things on sale. It’s still really hard for me to pay full price for clothing or a pair of shoes that’s a hundred dollars. I’m like, no, can’t do that. Like you, I’ve been a renter this whole time and I don’t know if I want to buy property or a home. I did buy a car when I moved to Cincinnati, and so I’m making those monthly payments now. Part of it is also okay, well, I’m going to make these payments and pay off my car and then maybe see where I’m at in terms of, if I’m in a permanent position that then I feel more comfortable buying a home. I think some of the approaches I still have to managing that is to have one type of debt at a time. Take on debt, pay it off and take on a new debt, pay it off.

36:10 Emily: Yeah, it sounds like you really have learned much more about, as you were saying earlier, debt management or how you can use debt as a tool, especially to avoid large expenditures of cash. Because it sounds like you still have cash savings to a degree, but it’s more about not wanting to let go of that and using debt to help you basically just hold both to have the cash and to have the debt, so that you can feel, feel more secure around it. Is that right?

36:39 Fushcia: Yeah. I think that’s a really good way of kind of summing that up.

Negotiating a Post-Doc Salary

36:44 Emily: Yeah. And then the other thing that you mentioned that you wanted to talk about in this interview was negotiating your salary, which is also kind of another mindset leap, right? Like not only, maybe from someone coming from the kind of background that you have, but also just being in academia where like with your first postdoc, negotiation is not really an option, but it sounds like you did at your first opportunity, negotiate. Can you tell us how that worked?

37:09 Fushcia: Yeah. To be honest, a lot of it was just like, I know I need to practice this because I know I’ll have to do it at some point, so let me just practice it now because it’s lower stakes.

37:21 Emily: Yeah. Good point.

37:25 Fushcia: Part of that came from in your webinar you had been talking about kind of how you plan for transitions. So either going from your degree to a postdoc, postdoc to a full time permanent position, and managing the moving costs and change in expenses. I had sat down and looked at essentially the cost of living for Annapolis and estimating what my costs are now, and what’s expected to grow. The majority of that, it’s about a 300% increase in housing expenses from Cincinnati to Annapolis. I started there and then looked at how much would I want in savings or investments, and then worked with the business office at SESYNC to then figure out is there a parking cost? Learning about the exact percentage rate that they take out for retirement or investments. Trying to find what are all the other hidden costs and expenses that come with this position so that I could factor that into my budget and then know what would my minimum salary need to be, because I know my minimum payments for my car. I know my cell phone payments. Those are things that I know and then wanting to make sure that it had wiggle room.

38:54 Fushcia: Then I think on top of that, I also wanted to try and stay as close as possible to what I was already making. Certainly, it can be challenging to do that with a different type of postdoc, particularly because this one’s affiliated with the University of Maryland, academic post docs are much slower. But I didn’t want to have this $20,000 drop, because the great thing about the NRC was that they gave a $1,500 increase every year. I came in at $69,000, but then the next year I was making $70,500. So it’s like, okay, well, how close can we get to this?

39:38 Fushcia: Again, a lot of it was using my network, and talking to in particular, a good friend who is now at Cornell. She had just finished her PhD, and she had negotiated her position. Asking her for advice and resources and how you frame what you’re negotiating for and the language that you use so that it’s still appropriate and respectful, but that you’re still firm, in terms of, these are my skills, particularly because I was coming out of a postdoc. I already have almost two years of experience post-PhD, and I’ll have all these other publications, and knowing different questions to ask.

40:22 Fushcia: I wrote up this letter, had a few people review it. Ironically, when I asked my former PhD advisor, she was like, “We don’t do that. If someone were to do that, maybe I’d give like a two to 3000 increase.” But when I had looked up other negotiation strategies on Inside Higher Ed, I used a lot of their articles. They mentioned, I think it’s 15% to 22% is typically what you negotiate as your range, particularly if it’s not a lateral position, if you’re moving up. So I was like, “Okay, we’re going to go for 15%.” And they did not give it to me, but they came close. From there I went back and said, “Okay, based on this salary, could I make it work?” And I could. It’s going to be tight, which is a bit frustrating to have a point where you have more flexibility and you have more expendable income and now it feels a little bit more like being a grad student again where it’s a smaller salary. I have to be more conscious of where my money is going and not spending as much as I was, particularly now that I have a car and all the expenses that are associated with that. But I know that I have the skills to make it work. And at this point I’m also looking for a permanent position after this postdoc. I don’t anticipate after this two year position, being in a situation where I have to kind of penny pinch and reduce costs elsewhere.

42:23 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you approach that — I mean, it’s clear that you did a lot of research and preparation through that process, not only taking what you learned from the webinar that I gave, but also this research you did with the articles in Inside Higher Ed and in speaking with your friend. You really prepared for that and kind of the best way possible, so it’s a great, it’s a great model for the listeners to hear, especially because you knew that you were going into an almost guaranteed income drop and also a cost of living increase. Both of those factors just highlight the need for being really careful around this. And if your academic advisor said, well, this isn’t done, I mean, it is, it is done sometimes, in some places. Maybe no one’s ever attempted it with her.

43:06 Emily: I want to point the listeners to one of my resources, which is postdocsalaries.com. And there’s also another one PhDstipends.com, for those in graduate school. It’s kind of like a Glassdoor, but for those types of positions, for postdocs and for grad student positions. That’s just another resource out there, if people want to get benchmarks on what is reasonable to be paid for different kinds of postdocs in different areas of the country. And I also ask questions about negotiation on that survey. I think the last time I looked in the database, it was around 25% or maybe a third of the people who had answered the questions had said, yes, I at least attempted to negotiate salary or benefits for the postdoc position. I think it’s becoming more and more popular, as people realize that this is a standard thing you do in most jobs, and why don’t we at least try it in these academic or nonacademic postdocs. That was great story.

43:58 Fushcia: Well, and I think too, salary, while I think it is very important, isn’t the only thing that you can negotiate. You can negotiate moving expenses and you can negotiate time off. I also negotiated my start time because I wanted to finish through my contract at the EPA before coming to SESYNC. That was something that I successfully negotiated. I had picked my top three things of these are the things that I would like, so we’ll see where they can meet me. There’s another postdoc who negotiated because he also was coming out of a previous postdoc and then everyone else who we’ve talked to, we were having a conversation and they were like, I didn’t know that you could do that. And we were like, all they can say is no, especially once they offer you a position, if they want you. If you don’t ask, you’ll never know.

45:02 Fushcia: I would also say for all the listeners that if you are going to any type of public institution, you can look up everyone’s salary, that’s all publicly accessible information. And that was something that I did to give me a sense of what are the ranges for the people that are employed within the center. I had an idea of what their budget is to figure out do I ask for the 15% or I do I ask for the 20% to 25%.

45:29 Emily: Yeah, that’s a great advantage when you’re going to those types of places, that there’s a large degree of transparency around salary there. That’s an amazing thing to look up, if that’s where you’re applying.

Best Financial Advice for an Early Career PhD

45:41 Emily: Last question here, Fushcia, as we wrap up — what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something that we have touched on in this interview, or it could be something completely else.

45:53 Fushcia: I think my first piece of advice would be to do as much research as you can. As grad students, we’re training basically how to do research and conduct research. I think we already have a lot of the skills to be able to access these resources and information and find ways or people to help us get there. I would say that most of the way that I have navigated my finances has been through talking to friends, talking to people who are in positions where I see myself going, and just doing the research and using the academic online journals that are available or financial journals, blogs, anything, and everything that you can capture to try and help inform what the decision that will be best for you, or rather the best decision for you.

47:00 Fushcia: The second thing that I would say is to give yourself more value and credit than what you would default to. I think as a graduate student, postdoc, there’s this expectation that we just kind of have to accept things as they are. And certainly in some cases, yes, that’s true. But I think in a lot of cases, there are always things that are negotiable and that are malleable. I think a lot of that comes down to recognizing how valuable you are, not just as a person, but also as the work and your contributions and that the majority of the people in this country do not have PhDs, so you’re bringing in a very valuable skillset, which, when you’re going into a space where everybody has PhDs, it may not seem like that, but I think it’s important to remind yourself of that.

48:05 Fushcia: I think especially, I say this to women postdocs, women of color, black women postdocs, we are already underestimated in many way. We are already underpaid in many ways, thinking about your initial salary offer or associated benefits. I think because of all the work that’s coming out from the national academies and other research centers about this still huge discrepancy across all fields, I think I use that as a way to empower me to ask for more. Because now it’s not just valuing my work and what I bring, but also recognizing that I’m already going to be undervalued, because of what I look like when I come in the room. I think that would be the last piece of advice that I would say for all the postdocs out there. And this includes folks who are femme or femme-identified. If you’re any type of on the marginalized periphery, ask for more, because again, all they can say is no. And if they take back that offer, then that’s probably not a place you want to go in the first place. Because you want to go where you’re going to be celebrated and valued. Give yourself more value than what you default to.

49:39 Emily: I think you put that so well. That was great. I have nothing to add there. Just everybody go back and listen to that again, listen to it a few more times, especially if you’re in one of these groups that Fuschia just identified. Absolutely.

49:50 Emily: Well, thank you so much for this wonderful interview and it was really a pleasure to speak with you today.

49:54 Fushcia: Yes. Thank you so much. This was really fun. I hope that whoever’s listening has been able to take something away, even if it’s just to know that you’re not the only one that’s in grad school who’s from a low income background or is having anxiety or fear around debt or salary. That’s that’s normal and also you will be okay. Everything will be fine.

50:23 Emily: Love that. Thank you so much.

50:25 Fushcia: Yes. Thank you.

Outtro

50:27 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.