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This Grad Student Deferred Her Acceptance to Work on Her Finances

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In this episode, Emily interviews Brittany Trinh, a PhD student in chemistry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Brittany originally applied to grad school in fall 2018, but she elected to defer her acceptance for two years in favor of taking a job. Brittany shares how she developed her finances, side business, and professional life in the 2.5 years she worked prior to matriculating. She started graduate school in fall 2021 in a much stronger financial position—and more confident in herself—than she would have in fall 2019, even though it was a bit of a rough transition. At the end of the interview, Brittany explains for whom deferment of grad school acceptance is a good option.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

PF for PhDs S14E4 Image: This Grad Student Deferred Her Acceptance to Work on Her Finances

Teaser

00:00 Brittany: I think the biggest thing was just, one, knowing how the PhD stipend is, and just the whole grad school process. I was just really afraid about like how like setting up my like financial future when like the stipend makes it kind of difficult to do that, savings and things. Like it is possible. But just at that time, I knew that like with my job, I could do that a lot faster than like going to grad school right away. And we know that like with time and investing, like time is like the most valuable thing.

Introduction

00:41 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 4, and today my guest is Brittany Trinh, a PhD student in chemistry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Brittany originally applied to grad school in fall 2018, but she elected to defer her acceptance for two years in favor of taking a job. Brittany shares how she developed her finances, side business, and professional life in the 2.5 years she worked prior to matriculating. As a result, she started graduate school in fall 2021 in a much stronger financial position—and more confident in herself—than she would have in fall 2019, even though it was a bit of a rough transition. At the end of the interview, Brittany shares from her perspective for whom deferment of grad school acceptance is a good option.

01:57 Emily: If you’re a prospective graduate student currently in the thick of admissions season, I encourage you to check out my asynchronous workshop, Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School. You can pick and choose which modules are most relevant to you now and over the coming months. For instance, if you’re staring at a cryptic funding offer letter, you might want to join “Interpret and Compare Offer Letters.” If you’re not sure if your stipend offer is really livable for a certain city, you might want to join “Stipends vs. Cost of Living.” If you know already that your top-choice program is offering a sub-par stipend, you might want to join “Negotiate Your Stipend and/or Benefits.” You can learn more about Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School and the various modules at PFforPhDs.com/setyourselfup/. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s14e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Brittany Trinh.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:06 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Brittany Trinh. She is a first-year graduate student at the University of Wisconsin Madison in chemistry. By the way, we are recording this in April, 2022, but I’m expecting to publish it in early 2023. So, for reference, you know, Brittany will now be a second-year graduate student at the time of publication, we expect. Okay, Brittany, thank you so much for joining me. Will you please introduce yourself further to the listener?

03:31 Brittany: Hi, yeah, my name is Brittany and I’m, like you said, currently a PhD student in chemistry at UW Madison and part of the Boydston group studying metal-free ring-opening metathesis polymerization. And before that, I was getting my BS chemistry at the University of Houston and then also working at a polymer company for about two and a half years before I became a grad student.

Timing of Grad School Application and Deferment

03:58 Emily: Excellent. And that is the subject of our interview today. So, Brittany applied for graduate school, got in, and decided not to go for a bit. So, we’re going to talk about that deferment process and why it happened and how it happened and how she used that time to better her finances and be in a stronger position when starting graduate school. So, I love this topic. Okay, so starting off, what was the timing of this? Like when did you apply for grad school? Were you also applying for jobs that same time? Just like walk us through the beginning of this process.

04:28 Brittany: Yeah, so I actually graduated a little bit later. So, in the fall of 2018 was my graduation semester, so that’s when I started applying for jobs and grad school at the same time. And then throughout that process, I actually only applied to one grad school, which was UW Madison because of like a fee waiver I got from a preview program. And simultaneously applying for a bunch of jobs and we all know how job searching goes.

04:59 Emily: Interesting. So, when you, because you were graduating like at that end of fall semester timing, were you already anticipating that you would have to have a job between, you know, let’s say January and August or whenever it was that you would matriculate if you had gone directly to graduate school?

05:16 Brittany: I think that I wanted to do something but I wasn’t expecting to honestly get into the graduate program because I did get the job offer by October, 2018. So, I had already like accepted the job offer before I even knew that I was getting into grad school.

Receiving an Acceptance Letter

05:38 Emily: Okay, great. So, when you got the acceptance to UW Madison, what were your thoughts at that time? Were you thinking that you wanted to enroll or were you already thinking by that point that deferring was going to be a good idea?

05:51 Brittany: So, this is actually a really funny story. I got my acceptance letter the same day that I came home from like my first day at work. And I was super surprised because I did not think I was going to get in. And so, of course I’m like kind of freaking out and thinking like, well, what do I do? You know? But ultimately I decided that it was better for me to just stay at my job because I literally just got started. And so, I wanted to see if there was an option for me to defer just for some time so I could get the work experience but then still pursue grad school later.

Role of Finances in Decision

06:27 Emily: And what role did finances play in that decision to defer?

06:33 Brittany: I think the biggest thing was just, one, knowing how the PhD stipend is and just the whole grad school process. I was just really afraid about like how like setting up my like financial future when like the stipend makes it kind of difficult to do that savings and things. Like it is possible. But just at that time, I knew that like with my job I could do that a lot faster than like going to grad school right away. And we know that like with time and investing, like time is like the most valuable thing. And then of course there were other some like emotional things related to that. Yeah, and I think the thing was that my job offer was really good and I just really could not turn it down. And that was why I ended up deferring my grad school enrollment.

07:32 Emily: Yeah, I think it definitely makes it easier to imagine what else you would be doing if you didn’t go directly to graduate school already being in that job, which is awesome. I’m wondering, did you have any particular financial concerns? Like I know generally things are hard, right? For grad students and finances, but I don’t know, were you like looking at like student loan debt that you wanted to pay down? Or were you like, “Oh, I have zero in savings and I really want a certain amount in savings.”? Like was there any specific element of your finances that was a top concern?

08:01 Brittany: Oh, yes. So, I am very fortunate that I did not have any like student loan or other like personal debt. But for me it was definitely zero savings. Because I obviously just graduated from school, and I had just like a little bit of savings from like summer research or things like that. But yeah, I really wanted to build up my emergency fund, my 401(k), and just kind of let it sit there while I’m in grad school and things like that. Those were like the main concerns.

Informing the Grad Program About Deferment

08:37 Emily: Okay. So, we’ve talked about like the decision to defer why you did it, what you were planning on doing with your time anyway. How is it actually like telling your program <laugh> that you got into that that was your plan, that you would like to exercise a deferment option? Like, I don’t know, like how did those conversations go?

08:55 Brittany: Yeah, so I don’t remember exactly like how I came up with the idea of deferring. But I think maybe I’ve seen it somewhere. So, I think I was just like searching the department’s website to find any reference in like the handbook or their FAQ or whatever about the deferral process. And so, I remember seeing this on their FAQ page saying that like, yes, it is possible because they’ve granted it to people before, you just have to like let them know and it’s up to two years. So, what I did was I waited until I went to the official visit weekend and I wanted to talk to the graduate program coordinator personally as opposed to like over e-mail. And it was actually a little bit awkward because it was at like a poster session when I approached her because the schedule is like pretty packed.

09:45 Brittany: But she had just finished chatting with another student and so when I came up to her, I introduced myself and explained to her my situation and I just said like, could you tell me more about the deferral process? Like I would love to come here, but like as of right now, I’ve just started my job and it’s only been like two months and I don’t really want to leave that yet. And in the end she was very kind and reassuring about it and she just told me it’s totally possible just like stay in contact with her and she would like follow-up with me and let me know what the steps were.

10:15 Emily: It’s actually like, I hadn’t thought about this before, but sort of thinking about it from the program director’s perspective, you’re going to be an even stronger candidate when you actually join the department in like a year or two or whatever having had that relevant work experience. So, it actually feels like they’re getting like a bargain or something, like, we’re going to get an even better grad student than like the one we accepted. Like that’s amazing. So, I can see how that would maybe be attractive. But something I hadn’t asked you yet is, when you were admitted to the program, were you admitted already like knowing who your advisor was? Or was that a process that would maybe happen during like your first year?

10:52 Brittany: Yeah, so when I was admitted, we don’t know who our advisors are yet. It’s just like you’re just generally admitted, and then once you enroll whatever semester, that’s when you go through like the whole rotation process and stuff. So, that wasn’t a concern at that point.

What About Funding?

11:07 Emily: Yeah, I can imagine if, you know, for anyone listening to this who’s maybe going to consider this, if you’re admitted directly with an advisor, that’s the way I was admitted to graduate school, then it’s like two levels, like you have to make this okay with the department level, their program level, and also with your advisor. And the other like sort of wrinkle in there is like, what about your funding? So, what was your funding situation and did the deferment matter at all in like, you know, was your funding automatically going to come again? Or did you have to like apply again? Or how did that work?

11:36 Brittany: Yeah, so I think when I was accepted, they offered me full funding as a student and then they also gave me an additional fellowship which was a surprise to me, but when I followed up with her about deferring and such, I just asked her what the situation was like. Because I would understand if they decided to rescind the additional fellowship which I think was like an additional $4,000 or $5,000 just for the first year because I deferred, but actually she said, “No, your funding will [I guess] transfer.” And I was really surprised. And so I think it, it just is a matter of just asking very directly. Like it was a little uncomfortable for me to be so forward about it because I didn’t want to seem like, you know, I’m just only concerned about money, but it was something that they offered me and I just wanted to see if that was still available to me.

12:36 Emily: Yeah, well that’s great. I mean, it sounds like this person was like very receptive to the process. I mean, even them having it on their website is a good indication that yeah, this is something there that happens from time to time, and they can handle it. And especially like you were saying, just being admitted generally to the program I think makes the whole process easier since you’re not negotiating with like a certain person with a certain number of spots that are available or whatever the case might be.

Finances During Gap Years

12:57 Emily: Okay. So, let’s move beyond like the decision to defer and talk about what you did with your time about two and a half years, you said, between when you started your job and when you ultimately entered graduate school. So, we talked earlier about like the financial reasons for why to pursue this job instead. What actually ended up happening during that period of time with your finances?

13:18 Brittany: Yeah, so during that time while I was working, I was able to save over like $60K in my 401(k). And so, I’m like really proud of that, and a lot more like for emergency funds, my future house, as long as like PhD expenses because I know that like moving would be expensive and like school fees and such. So, I wanted to have like an additional fund for that that I could tap into in case I needed it. The other thing was I also just learned a lot more about my own financial habits and values and such. And so, all of those were like really good to know before coming to grad school just in terms of like spending and how you save and such. And then of course the last thing was like, I started my business, which was really a fun learning experience.

14:12 Emily: Yeah, let’s put a pin in the business for just a second. I definitely want to talk about that further. But I just want to like congratulate you because it sounds like you made great use of the time that you’re working to like build up 401(k) balance and the savings and all that. And just like hearing all that, I’m just so happy for you like starting graduate school in such a strong financial position. You’re not precarious in the same way many other graduate students are. Especially having those like investments in place because, I mean, maybe you’re still adding to them, but even if you weren’t able to add your investments at all during graduate school, like I mean five years or more in graduate school, like that money is going to grow. I mean, we’re like assuming the market behaves like sort of average over a long period of time, but it’s going to grow like a lot, like at least 50%, maybe even, you know, closer to doubling during just that period of time that you’re in graduate school. So, it’s amazing to have that wind at your back is what I call the financial wind at your back of having investments. So, that’s just awesome.

15:04 Emily: One thing I did want to ask you though is that like since you had this plan of eventually going to graduate school, were you concerned at all about like your lifestyle or like experiencing lifestyle deflation upon entering graduate school? Because I know that I’ve heard that as like a reason against deferring or against taking time between undergrad and graduate school. It’s like, oh no, what if I become used to spending $60,000 a year and I can’t do that in graduate school, that’s going to be painful. So like, what was your thought process around that, like lifestyle setting aspect of the question?

15:38 Brittany: Oh yeah, that’s a really good point and question. Some other people also brought this up to me as well. But for me there was a little bit of a transition, which I guess we can talk a little bit more later, but the reason why I was able to save so much was because like I was already, I never saw that money because it was always like going direct deposit to my 401(k) or to my savings accounts and things like that. So even though yes, I was making like was like $65K a year or so, I didn’t see that $65K every year. It was like most of it’s already gone to savings. And so I was kind of living as if like I was making more of like $40K or something like that. And so, it wasn’t as bad. And then again, like I mentioned, I learned a lot about like my own habits and values and such. And so then once I came into grad school, I was able to kind of realign that with my current budget.

16:42 Emily: Yes, that makes total sense. And yeah, just having those extra couple of years of experience, as you said, learning about yourself, learning about your own like systems and habits and mindset and so forth with respect to money can be so super helpful with that.

Commercial

16:55 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my tax resources, many of which I have updated for tax year 2022. On that page you will find free podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. The absolute most comprehensive and highest quality resources, however, are my asynchronous tax workshops. I’m offering four tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022, one each for grad students who are U.S. citizens or residents, postdocs who are U.S. citizens or residents, postbacs who are U.S. citizens or residents, and grad students and postdocs who are nonresidents. Those tax return preparation workshops are in addition to my estimated tax workshop for grad student, postdoc, and postbac fellows who are U.S. citizens or residents.

18:11 Emily: My preferred method for enrolling you in one of these workshops is to find a sponsor at your university or institute. Typically, that sponsor is a graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, postdoc association, or an individual school or department. I would very much appreciate you recommending one or more of these workshops to a potential sponsor. If that doesn’t work out, I do sell these workshops to individuals, but I think it’s always worth trying to get it into your hands for free or a subsidized cost. Again, you can find all of these free and paid resources, including a page you can send to a potential workshop sponsor, linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Web Design Business

18:58 Emily: Okay, let’s come back to the business. So, what is the business that you started during this time before entering graduate school? And I guess, you know, did you have it in mind that you would continue it after starting graduate school?

19:12 Brittany: Yeah, so the business that I ended up creating is a web design business specifically for scientists, researchers, and academics, helping them build their online presence and their websites and such. And so, I started this business unofficially in April of 2019. So that’s like about four months after I started working. That was like kind of the, beginnings of it, but I didn’t start like actually getting clients until September. And that’s when I officially launched. And then since then, I’ve been working with a lot of clients one-on-one and doing workshops, collaborating with organizations and such and all those like fun things that come with an online business. And throughout the process, I made about like $15K in revenue, which most of it was reinvested into the business. But I always did have the intention of continuing it in grad school because I wanted to have that additional income.

20:14 Brittany: I think that was like the thing that really was also another concern for me was that I didn’t want to feel limited by my stipend and I wanted to do other things. One of them being visiting family because I’m in Wisconsin now and I’m from Houston, so, you know, flying home at least like three or four times a year is kind of a priority for me. And so, if I’m able to have like this extra side income, then I don’t need to worry about it, like cutting into like my daily expenses.

20:48 Emily: I just love how intentional you were with the choice of the business to start. And also just using again, your time before starting graduate school to establish it. Like you mentioned, you know, your revenue was like largely put back into the business as an investment and that actually makes a lot of sense to do that while you were working your job because the point at that time was not to get income from it, it was to, I assume, it’s to establish the business so that you can really reap that income once you have your graduate student stipend that you’re living on. So yeah, I just, this is so great and like of course also the subject matter of your business is still like related to like academia and like science and so forth, so it’s still like, it’s something that isn’t totally out of left field for like a graduate student to be doing, right? So, I love that choice because you can still sort of market it and it makes sense like even once you start graduate school. So, just to commend you on all of that. That’s great. Is there anything else that you want to say about the business? Where can people find you by the way, if they want to work with you?

21:43 Brittany: Yeah, if you want to work with me, you can find me on my website, brittanytrinh.com. Or you can also just connect with me on Twitter and Instagram, which is b r t t n y t r n h. So, that’s basically my name without the vowels. Yeah, so all the things about like website design start building and starting your website. That’s what I love to do and yeah.

Starting Grad School

22:09 Emily: Okay, great. So, let’s go back to our timeline. So, you’re doing great with your finances, you’re liking your job and so forth. How did you decide that it was finally time to start graduate school?

22:20 Brittany: So, the program that I applied to, or at least in my time, it was a limit of two years for deferral. So, what happened was the graduate program coordinator contacted me at the one-year mark which would’ve been fall of 2019 for me to enroll in fall of 2020, to ask if I was still interested. And I said, I am, but I still wanted to defer another year. And she was like, okay, that’s that’s totally fine, just keep in contact. And so then again, she did that in fall 2020 and well, we all know what happened then. And so at that point, at work things were kind of slowing down because of COVID, and I was just thinking, you know, maybe this is a good time now to go back to school. Because I also felt like I could not progress in the way that I wanted to at my workplace with my current credentials. And just in general, if I wanted to move up in the chemical industry, having a PhD would strengthen my application.

23:20 Emily: You know, we didn’t even mention that earlier, I guess because in your case this was a deferment of an acceptance instead of like a choice to just wait to apply to graduate school. But I love that you also ended up using that time to confirm that you really did need a PhD like for the career because of course you could have just bailed if you said, “Oh no, I have plenty of room for advancement, this is great, my BS is awesome, maybe I’ll do a master’s on the side.” Whatever it is. You could have gone that track, but yeah, I love that you really are sort of once again intentionally like choosing the life and career that you want to have, and use that time to like confirm this is the right path. So, that makes so much sense to me. I understand you did have to technically apply again to Wisconsin, right? So, in that fall of 2020, right? So you’re submitting another application to them. Were you also looking around at other grad schools? Because as I said earlier, now you’re a two-years better candidate than you were the first time around. So, tell us about that too.

24:11 Brittany: Yeah, so this was something that I brought up with the graduate program coordinator at Wisconsin. I was wondering if I was allowed, like if the deferment meant that I was kind of confirming my acceptance and she said, “No, feel free to apply to other schools that you want.” And I was like, okay, that sounds great. So then I did end up applying to four other schools, really reach schools like MIT, Colorado Boulder, Rice, and University of Michigan. And so, I applied to those four other schools, but in the end, I still went with Wisconsin because I thought that they were the strongest program for what I wanted and needed for my own career.

24:57 Emily: Yeah, that’s great and it makes sense. I mean, I guess maybe someone else considering a deferment would still have to check with their program, but it doesn’t really make sense that you would be obligated to go. It’s more like they’re obligated to you <laugh> to still like accept you. Right? But you’re not really obligated in the same way to them. So, that makes sense. Okay. So, you technically apply again, you apply to some other schools. You still decide on Wisconsin. Did you go to a second visit weekend? Did you get to do that again?

25:21 Brittany: Yes, but because of COVID, it was virtual but I still came anyways to, originally it was to look for apartments, but it ended up just being hanging out. And actually, I did meet some professors during that trip, and one of those professors is now my advisor, <laugh>.

25:39 Emily: Okay. So that worked out on multiple fronts.

Financial Transition

25:41 Emily: So, let’s then talk about like the transition to graduate school, like specifically through a financial lens. You mentioned earlier that you did have to make some adjustments. But you have the savings in place, you know, for the moving fund, all that. So, how did that transition go?

25:57 Brittany: So, it was definitely rough in the first semester. Like you mentioned, there was a little bit of a time period where I had to transition my finances in that curbing my spending was a thing. So, I was trying to keep a closer eye on spending, especially like online shopping, clothes, and things like that because obviously I wasn’t making as much as before. And then on the other side of my business, I also made the decision to kind of put it on the back burner for the first semester because I was trying to focus on just transitioning, TAing, coursework, and finding a lab group. So, all those things were happening and I was like, my business does not need to be going on right now. The other thing was that I experienced a little bit of financial anxiety which was mostly avoidance.

26:47 Brittany: And this was because I just didn’t want to think about like how much I was spending now that my budget or my income was a lot less. But obviously that’s not the greatest way to go. So earlier this year, like in January I just decided to, you know, kind of clear all those things up on like my spending habits and things and trying to keep track of like, what do I spend for groceries and all those things and kind of get a good better handle on that. The other thing was that like related to the financial anxiety, it was mostly about like financial future because now it’s like I don’t have as much money as I did before to put towards savings, but I definitely still want to keep saving, which was why I decided to kind of get a better handle on my spending. So then I can see like, okay, can I save like $200 a month? Right? That would equal out to be, I think the $6,000 for like a Roth IRA contribution per year, is that right?

27:49 Emily: It would be $500 a month.

27:50 Brittany: Oh no, it’s $500 a month. Yeah. So yeah, actually $500 a month, not $200. But yeah, so those are some of the things that I wanted to do.

28:00 Emily: Yeah, that makes sense. I’m glad you’re being like, so like open about this and honest about it because I bet other people who had a similar experience would have similar emotions around it of like, you know, feeling more insecure and more anxious even though you knew it was coming <laugh>, like still to see like the smaller numbers in the bank account and like your savings going down because you’re, you know, you’re spending on moving expenses and whatever else is going on. But really glad to hear that you sort of eventually like kind of firmed up on the mindset and the processes and so forth. So, that’s great and thank you so much for sharing. And have you re-ramped up with your business? Again, we’re recording this in April 2022. So now that you’re in like your second semester, is that more, is that something you’re spending time on now?

28:43 Brittany: Yes, definitely spending more time on it. Really wanting, I’m really trying to push for teaching more workshops. I’m still taking on one-on-one clients, although it’s just a little bit different than before. So, definitely taking that first semester off to kind of recalibrate to see like how do I want my PhD experience to go and what I want to get out of it has also helped me realign my own business goals as well. So, that’s been really fun.

29:10 Emily: Okay. Well, this is an unexpected tie-in, but in season 11 we published an episode with Dr. Toyin Alli sort of along these same lines of like moving from one-on-one services to more scalable like passive products. So, interesting. If anyone is like jibing with what Brittany is saying, then check out that episode with Dr. Toyin Alli where we talk more about these like strategies.

For Whom is Deferring a Good Option?

29:32 Emily: Okay. So, kind of to wrap up here, for whom do you think deferring is a good option?

29:39 Brittany: I think deferring may be a good option for anyone who’s like at all doubting their decision to do a PhD because that’s how I felt. Like I did not want to do a PhD yet, at the time that I was accepted for not just financial reasons, but also a lot of like emotional and like mental health reasons. I felt a lot of burnout from undergrad and I wasn’t sure if I could complete a PhD successfully given where I was at at the time. And I don’t really think that the decision to do a PhD should be taken lightly, right? And so if you’re not sure, like you’re honestly better off taking that time to work at a job and figure out like what you like to do or like in my case, like do you even really need a PhD for what you want to do? And like just in general learning more about the industry that you want to work in and ultimately you should just do the PhD, or I guess when you decide to do the PhD, it’s because it’s an experience that you want to have in your life. So, getting to like a more like affirming position rather than like feeling FOMO about not doing a PhD.

30:53 Emily: Love that. I had, so I didn’t defer my acceptance to grad school. I just waited to apply until, I was planning on taking two years between undergrad and grad school. I ended up applying so that I enrolled just one year after I finished undergrad. But for some of the same reasons that you just mentioned, like I felt like I was a stronger candidate having had like extra work experience. I wanted to see what science was like in a different kind of setting than what I experienced during undergrad. All of that still just confirmed for me that I did want to do the PhD. What you did that I did not, was really working on the finances in that time because I did a post-bac program, which paid me basically what a grad student stipend is. So, there were no financial advantages there, but there were those other advantages still that you mentioned. So, that’s so great.

31:35 Emily: And where could people find you if they want to follow up? You mentioned your business website earlier, do that again, but let’s say someone wanted to follow up more on like the personal side about deferring or something. Where can people find you?

31:44 Brittany: Yeah, so definitely you can still visit me on my website, brittanytrinh.com. Or you can email me at [email protected] if you want to like send a longer message. And also just again, connect with me on my social media accounts. You can just tag me or DM me as well.

32:02 Emily: Sounds great.

32:03 Brittany: Totally open to share more. Yeah.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

32:05 Emily: Good, good. Okay, so, we’ll finalize here with the question that I ask of all my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve talked about in this episode or it could be something completely new.

32:19 Brittany: Yeah, so I would say that my best financial advice is to find a skill that you like enough to leverage for extra income. So, a lot of people do like tutoring, writing, editing, whatever. And like one of my, like my roommate, she like does like cover art for like, you know, for like for publications and such. So, it’s like having those types of skills or just having something that you like to do. Especially like if it’s something that doesn’t require too much time or effort from you, it’s always more, it’s more beneficial to you anyways. And like you don’t have to build like a whole business, but it’s good to know that you have another way to make extra money if you want to.

33:05 Emily: Yeah, that’s interesting you say that because I mean, I totally agree. I’m so on board with this advice <laugh>. But like furthermore, you’ve built like a business and you have like a brand and all of that, but someone doesn’t need to go to that level to make extra money on the side. Like they could do more like freelancing or like put themselves on, is it called Upwork now? Is that the current name for the website?

33:24 Brittany: Yeah, Upwork.

33:24 Emily: Yeah, Upwork. So, they can put themselves on Upwork or something like that where like you’re finding clients but you don’t need to necessarily build a whole infrastructure around it. At least not at the start while you’re just like trying things out. So, I love that, just like thinking about what skills you enjoy that you have that might be a little bit unique in the marketplace. I definitely see how your skills with like the website building is unique and something very needed. And especially if you can speak like the language of, you know, your clients, that’s a big advantage. Anyway. I love your business so that’s awesome. Brittany, thank you so much for joining me for this interview! It’s been wonderful! I hope the listeners got a ton out of it. Thank you so much!

33:56 Brittany: Thank you for having me!

Outtro

34:03 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

The Tax and Retirement Effects of Receiving Fellowship Funding

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jamie Lahvic about her experience being funded by fellowship during grad school at Harvard and her postdoc at the University of California, Berkeley. Regarding the tax complications of being on fellowship and the lack of retirement benefits, Jamie and Emily outline the issues, discuss possible solutions, and suggest advocacy avenues for instigating change. Listen through the end of the interview for the Big Questions regarding the true nature of fellowships and employment.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

S14E3: Image The Tax and Retirement Effects of Receiving Fellowship Funding

Teaser

00:00 Jamie: Because I often felt, you know, in addition to like the confusion and the frustration and wondering what to do, that I don’t know, it felt like an emotional hit. I felt unvalued when I’m put into this weird little category where my earnings don’t make sense and I can’t open an account and I can’t figure out how to pay taxes. And I went on this really kind of rollercoaster from feeling like, “Oh, I’m a valued scientist and worker in this field,” down to like, “Oh, nobody really cares about me or the type of work that I’m doing.”

Introduction

00:38 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 3, and today my guest is Dr. Jamie Lahvic. We discuss Jamie’s experience being funded by fellowship during grad school at Harvard and her postdoc at the University of California, Berkeley. Regarding the tax complications of being on fellowship and the lack of retirement benefits, Jamie and I outline the issues, discuss possible solutions, and suggest advocacy avenues for instigating change. Listen through the end of the interview for the Big Questions regarding the true nature of fellowships and employment.

01:43 Emily: If there are any prospective PhD students listening—and I hope there are—I want to point you to a new workshop I’ve been publishing in installments throughout this academic year, Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School. Now that we’re in admissions season, the modules are getting really exciting and immediately actionable. The two most recent modules are titled “Decipher and Compare Your Offer Letters” and “How to Negotiate Your Stipend and/or Benefits.” One from last fall that you might want to check out as you’re evaluating the cities your offers are in is “Stipends vs. Cost of Living.” I sincerely want you to go into grad school with your eyes wide open regarding the financial realities and in the strongest financial position possible for the program you choose. I hope you will check out the workshop and enroll in the modules that will help you accomplish that. Go to pfforphds.com/setyourselfup/ for more information. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s14e3/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jamie Lahvic.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:01 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jamie Lahvic. Super delighted to have Jamie here. We actually met at a conference last summer. I’m recording this in November, 2022. So, we met at the Graduate Career Consortium Annual Meeting, which was in July, 2022. We ran into each other during like a break or something, and we just started chatting and we had this electric conversation about funding, about fellowships, about benefits, about systemic issues that need to be addressed. And I just wanted to capture some of that magical conversation here on the podcast. So, Jamie, I’m super delighted to have you on. Will you please introduce yourself to the audience?

03:42 Jamie: Sure! My name is Jamie Lahvic. I am currently working as a Program Officer at the National Institute on Aging, where I focus on some policies as well as programs related to graduate students, postdocs, and early career faculty. But today I’m kind of excited to talk about my own personal experiences as a graduate student and then a postdoc. So, I went to grad school at Harvard Medical School studying biomedical sciences and then I moved on to UC Berkeley to do a postdoc in cancer biology. And I wrapped up that postdoc in 2021.

04:18 Emily: I’m really excited to see all these different perspectives from you being at a private university, a public university, now in government. Like, this is awesome! And I’m of course going to share some of my own limited experience as well. But we’ve both had some observations about these issues about the finances and the benefits and so forth that are offered to graduate students and postdocs as employees or as fellows. So, I want to, for the listeners just to introduce them. I have a framework, this is not necessarily the way that everybody talks about this, but in my mind there are sort of two broad classifications that graduate students and postdocs can fall into. One is as an employee. The way you know that you’re an employee especially if you’re a citizen or resident, is if you receive a W-2 <laugh> at tax time, that’s like really indicative that you’re an employee.

05:04 Emily: So, you have this employer/employee relationship with the university and that may cause different benefits and so forth to be offered to you. The other classification, a little harder to name, a lot of people use the term fellowship, but not only things called fellowships could fall into this classification. So, I broadly call it awarded income when your income comes from an award that you received. Could be certain types of grants, could be a fellowship, could be some other things. So, that’s the language we’ll be using. We’ll just say fellowship for shorthand, but that basically just means non-employee or at least under the, you know, the timing and circumstances of receiving that award, you’re a non-employee.

Switching Between Grad Student Funding Sources

05:37 Emily: Okay. With that clarification out of the way, let’s talk about, you know, your personal experiences, my personal experiences with being an employee and/or being a fellow during grad school and postdoc. So, we’ll probably take this like topically. What would you like to share? What you know surprised you about maybe switching between these two types of funding? What issues did they bring up? Go ahead.

05:59 Jamie: Sure. Yeah, so as a graduate student, I was never an employee. I was always either paid a student stipend coming straight from the university or then a fellowship stipend once I got an NIH fellowship. So there, it still was a really complicated process. I remember being very surprised first year as a graduate student to try to figure out how to pay taxes, how to pay estimated taxes every year. And it seemed to become more complicated every year, especially because once I got my fellowship, some of my money would come from the fellowship, some of it would come from the university. Those would come in separate paychecks. And then later on once I was teaching I would get a third paycheck to cover the teaching that I was doing. And throughout all of that, I never received a W-2. Every now and then I would receive a 1099 for the teaching, but they were kind of inconsistent in whether they would send that. So come tax time, I kind of never knew what I should even do. So, that was a big struggle.

07:01 Emily: Yeah. Let’s talk about the tax issue for a minute longer, because I mean, you probably know this is like part of the bread and butter of my business now because so many graduate students and postdocs are running into confusion around the tax issues. And basically, I mean we will link in the show notes some episodes I’ve done on this in the past, but it basically boils down to like when you’re an employee, your employer has certain responsibilities in terms of telling you how much money you’ve been paid and how much money they withheld on your behalf and so forth. And once you get into this weird non-employee status, they simply don’t have those legal responsibilities in the way that they do for employees. And so, universities take like all these different approaches. And you’re saying even within Harvard, different pools of money were being reported in different ways.

07:46 Emily: And so, yeah, of course, that gets confusing for the recipient when the vast majority of our like, I mean already the U.S. tax system is so complicated to navigate, but if you step outside of the simple like employee world, it gets even harder to find, you know, the support and the resources that you need. That’s part of why I do what I do. But yeah, tell me a little bit more about how you dealt with these like challenges or complications of not having income tax withheld, for example, or like the reporting inconsistencies?

Team Effort for Taxes

08:15 Jamie: Yeah, I think a lot of the students kind of banded together to help each other. I remember we had one really proactive student who would post in our year’s Facebook group four times a year saying, “Remember, pay your estimated taxes.” And I was like so grateful to get that reminder because I was so caught up in, you know, rotations and qualifying exams and whatnot. I just couldn’t think about remembering to do this. So, just having somebody send a reminder was amazing. And then we did a lot of talking to each other to try to fill out the forms correctly. I think I was a few years into graduate school when I found your website and some of your tips, and I remember that being just amazing and just feeling like that’s something that was, you know, it’s complicated but once it’s laid out it is relatively simple. It is the type of information that the university could have given us that they never really did because they wanted to stay away from giving tax advice and they’re not a certified public accountant, and that type of thing. So, it felt like the students were on our own to try and figure it out.

09:17 Emily: Yeah, I think that again, while the universities don’t have again this legal requirement to issue tax forms that make sense, or whatever, I do think it’s really helpful when they try to address this as much as they’re able to. And I mean, I hear a lot of pushback when I work with uni–not a lot. Some places I hear pushback like, “Oh we really can’t, you know, give tax advice and so forth.” And I try to kind of make the point like, “Well, you on your own or me, like we could talk about this without it being advice.” Like we can just talk generally about how estimated tax works and what these different reporting things that are going on are. And that’s what I do like with my quarterly estimated tax workshop. Again, we’ll link it in the show notes. And so, a lot of times universities contract with me to provide that because they feel like that shifts some liability off of them and onto me and they’re more comfortable with that.

10:07 Emily: But again, just giving a little bit of education and some reminders and tips and so forth is not, to me, giving advice, because really it is ultimately up to the individual to figure this out. Like I’m not sitting down with anyone filling out their forms, like they’re still doing that on their own. I’m just providing guidance on how to do so. So, I guess this is kind of turning into an ad but like if the listener <laugh>, if you listeners are on fellowship and you want your university to help you, tell them about what I offer, because they may feel more comfortable working with me then doing this, you know, with an internal employee who, you know, might expose them to some liability.

Added Hardship of Inconsistent Tax Reporting

10:41 Emily: Okay. Estimated tax and reporting stuff, all a difficulty of being on fellowship. Anything more you’d like to add about that? Or should we move on to a new talking point?

10:52 Jamie: I just thought it, you know, in addition to kind of the confusion, it can sometimes cause real hardship. Like for me for instance, I didn’t receive a 1099 for my final chunk of teaching that I did in my like final year as a graduate student. And so, in between doing that teaching and like the spring and into summer semester, I got a postdoc. I moved across the country, I had started a whole new tax, you know, qualification as an employee there. And then when it came time to do taxes, I honestly completely forgot about the money I had gotten paid in the previous spring. Because I never received any kind of 1099, any kind of documentation, and I just didn’t pay taxes on it. And I think I like woke up in the middle of the night sometime like three months later and went like, “Oh my god, I made like thousands of dollars <laugh> that I didn’t pay any taxes on.” And then like on my own, I had to then figure out how to adjust my taxes. I had to pay a penalty for the amount that I, you know, had failed to pay previously. And at the time, like I had just spent all of this money to move cross country. I was making a postdoc salary. Like I really didn’t need to be paying any extra penalties on my taxes for that type of thing.

Potential Changes at the University Level

12:04 Emily: Absolutely. I mean, good for you for doing the amended return and everything, because I know some people will just kind of let it go after that point. But you really don’t want to let it go like multiple years and then have the IRS, I mean I know it’s rare, but it can happen that they can come after you, and then it’s an even bigger problem. So, good that you took care of it. But I think kind of what we’re saying here is just like communication, <laugh> communication is helpful around this topic. So, we’ve talked about this problem, various problems related to taxes. What are some things that could change at the university level, state level, federal level, whatever it is, to alleviate these problems?

12:41 Jamie: I mean at the university level, my understanding is that even if you’re not an employee, the university can still give you a 1099 for the money that you’ve made, and that universities, as far as I know, kind of choose whether or not to go through that step and send out those 1099s. So, I think that’s a major thing that just having a very clear document makes filing your taxes easier. You know, that’s something that like TurboTax and similar basic tax filing software knows how to work with. So, I think that would make a huge difference for a lot of students.

13:12 Emily: So, I actually did experience this during graduate school, so I’ve had a couple periods of my life where I was on fellowship. But when I was at Duke, Duke actually did manage to withhold income tax on behalf of at least me. I don’t know if every type of fellowship it was available, but at least for me, about half my years I was on this like non-employee kind of income. So, they were able to withhold on my behalf, and they did issue a 1099-MISC (Miscellaneous) at year’s end. So, that helps with like the problem you just identified of like, you know, a year and a half goes by and you’ve forgotten about some chunk of your income. Yes, that does help with that problem. The issue that it causes <laugh> is that the 1099 is most widely recognized as a self-employment income kind of document.

13:59 Emily: And so, then there’s, I feel like there’s even more burden on the recipient to properly communicate what this is with their tax software or their tax preparer. So, if they know to do that and they know that they’re not supposed to pay self-employment tax on this income, then it can work out. As a reporting document, it’s okay, but I would say, you know, nine times out of 10, people don’t know that it’s not self-employment income or maybe they know that, but they don’t know how to communicate that. And they don’t check that, they don’t understand how it’s going to affect their return. Anyway, so it can cause an even bigger mess. So like, I hesitate to say that that is the best solution. I mean really to me, I would say the 1098-T is the best form that we have as of now.

Reflections on an Adjusted 1098-T and Streamlined Tax Reporting

14:50 Emily: Although I would love it if there was just an adjusted 1098-T or a different kind of form that really could fully reflect the fellowship like situation. Because again, the 1098-T, while it’s used by many universities, they’re not required to issue one if you have more of this box five grant income than you do box one, like the educational expenses and charges. So, if they would just issue it all the time, I think that would be helpful. But even going beyond that, like this is now like a federal level kind of thing. Like if there were a different form or the 1098-T itself were somehow different, that would be even more clear.

15:26 Jamie: Totally. Yeah. Yeah, and I know anecdotally, I eventually switched over from like the TurboTax software to I think FreeTaxUSA that has a great little box to check that said you know, is this income, are you like, are you a graduate student or postoc rather than an undergraduate? Because I think it’s typically with that 1098-T where they’re trying to like not take out taxes on the portion that you’ve used to cover scholarly expenses, which applies to like an undergraduate who’s receiving, you know, tuition reimbursement, but not to a graduate student. So, I could imagine at the federal level, you could create a little box like that on the 1098-T, right? To check here if this is a graduate or postdoctoral level fellowship, right? Or check here if this money is not being used to cover tuition and scholarly expenses. It would be nice.

16:20 Emily: I think this is both like maybe a reporting option at the federal level, but also it comes down to the university level and how, like which department is the one that’s like processing these paychecks. And you are, like saying how you did about your various different incomes from Harvard, that indicates to me that like maybe payroll was issuing some of this, maybe financial aid was issuing some of this. And like having these different siloed departments separated from one another communication-wise means that things are not streamlined and you get different types of forms and maybe for you, maybe you were on different pay schedules for, you know, different sources. Yeah. So, having like a single department that handles like all, you know, income for graduate students and postdocs, whether it is payroll income for employees, whether it is, you know, non-employee income, that might help. I don’t know, maybe that’ll cause other problems too, but like right now, again, the universities are not really set up to handle this in a streamlined, or at least, I don’t want to say broadly. Some universities are not set up to handle this in a streamlined manner. Maybe others have it a little more figured out. I don’t know.

17:23 Jamie: I know actually when I got paid at UC Berkeley, it was more like that. So there, I was eventually on a fellowship as well, but I received one paycheck per month. And it was kind of interesting because, you know, I would receive my lump monthly salary or stipend from the fellowship, but only a little portion of that would get taxed. So, there would be like a little tiny bit of tax taken out, and then the rest of it was untaxed. But it at least came to me on like one single paycheck where it was very clear how much tax had been withheld, and then I could run the numbers when it came time to pay the estimated taxes on the rest.

17:59 Emily: So, it sounds like you were still receiving a pay stub. Even though a portion of this is employee. Yeah, that’s perfect. I mean, I kind of always tell people who are employees like, “Okay, look at your last pay stub, even before you receive your tax forms. Look at your last pay stub.” Maybe you have to access it through your payroll system or whatever, but you can find out how much tax was withheld. But again, those pay stubs are not generated usually if you’re a non-employee. But it sounds like Berkeley has this figured out, so I’m really happy to hear that. I would, yeah, I would love to be able to come up with like, I don’t know best practices, like which universities are using the best practices. So like, Duke has something figured out over here, Berkeley has something figured out over here. Like, I don’t know, maybe there’s a way to again, promulgate these best practices among these different universities and financial whatever, backend stuff.

18:44 Jamie: Yeah, and you know, I think great groups to kind of connect to for that are unions. Within the UC system, we have a strong postdoc union. And I think they had done a lot of pushing, you know, both on how much you get paid, but also a lot of these minute policies about how you get paid. And so I wouldn’t be surprised if the more streamlined system came about because of pressure from the union. And I’d be interested to know what other, you know, grad student unions and postdoc unions are where they’re having successes.

19:13 Emily: Yeah, I’m super glad to hear that. Exactly. Like sort of giving a voice to these, well, you might not know, but the downstream effect of this like decision that you’ve made, the way you’ve set up the system is it’s causing these problems.

Commercial

19:28 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my tax resources, many of which I have updated for tax year 2022. On that page you will find free podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. The absolute most comprehensive and highest quality resources, however, are my asynchronous tax workshops. I’m offering four tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022, one each for grad students who are US citizens or residents, postdocs who are U.S. citizens or residents, postbacs who are U.S. citizens or residents, and grad students and postdocs who are nonresidents. Those tax return preparation workshops are in addition to my estimated tax workshop for grad student, postdoc, and postbac fellows who are U.S. citizens or residents.

20:43 Emily: My preferred method for enrolling you in one of these workshops is to find a sponsor at your university or institute. Typically, that sponsor is a graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, postdoc association, or an individual school or department. I would very much appreciate you recommending one or more of these workshops to a potential sponsor. If that doesn’t work out, I do sell these workshops to individuals, but I think it’s always worth trying to get it into your hands for free or a subsidized cost. Again, you can find all of these free and paid resources, including a page you can send to a potential workshop sponsor, linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Advocacy Avenues for Grad Students and Postdocs

21:28 Emily: The last kind of question in this area, and you just mentioned one of the advocacy avenues: unions. Can you think of any other advocacy avenues that graduate students and postdocs might be able to use to make these kinds of changes that we’re talking about?

21:45 Jamie: I mean, even outside of a formal union, I’ve seen a lot of success from graduate students and postdocs just banding together and working together on these things. Whether that is kind of peer-to-peer advice and providing resources, or working together as a group to request something from your department, from your university. You know, I have so many memories of like trying to do my taxes, trying to fill in the forms, and getting like frustrated and upset and not knowing what to do. And I think like you have peers who can help you through some of those things and at least to help you feel supported.

22:25 Emily: Now, I don’t know exactly what avenue this is, but I have noticed over the years that I’ve been studying federal taxes for, you know, as in how they affect graduate students and postdocs, that there have been changes. The 1098-T has gone through actually a big remodel in the last few years. The Kiddie Tax went through a slight change with the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. So, there have been other changes that have been made that makes me realize that changes possible. Now, I don’t know what the avenue is for letting someone know, <laugh> that you want a change to happen. Maybe it’s contacting your representative or your senator or whatever. We can talk about some of the advocacy around like retirement stuff that happened a few years ago in a moment, but the change can happen. I’m just not clear exactly how you communicate, you know, this advocacy at the federal level.

23:09 Jamie: Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, I know I’ve been on like the IRS website looking for like from their resources, like what is their advice for people in these situations. And what I found was only a few lines, right? Like not a lot of detail. So, I would love to see, you know, coming directly from the IRS some more clear advice around these types of situations. And I do know that government agencies put out things like RFIs, requests for information, and they do have various sort of feedback channels, so trying to find those for the IRS or for your state tax departments could be one way to go about it.

(No) Access to University Retirement Accounts

23:48 Emily: Okay. Future project for me. Okay, well I just alluded to retirement accounts, so let’s talk about that next. What’s been your experience with being offered or not being offered access to university retirement accounts?

24:01 Jamie: Sure. So, as a graduate student, I didn’t have any option for any kind of retirement account. And my understanding was that from legal sort of tax reporting purposes, I wasn’t able to open an official retirement account. So, in graduate school I was making like just enough money to save up a little bit and I did start buying like some mutual funds with that. And then as a postdoc, I did have a retirement account offered. However, I started out by like not really contributing very much to it at all because I was living in this really high cost-of-living area with not a lot of income. And then I actually found out as I was going through the fellowship application process that I was going to be losing that retirement contribution once I got a fellowship coming in. So then I sort of, at the last minute just before my fellowship came in, I like maxed out all my contributions as best as I could for like the last few months and tried to top it off. But then the fellowship came in and those accounts kind of sat stagnant for the rest of my postdoc. So, that was a frustrating thing to see. And it’s definitely been really nice now for a little more than a year I’ve been in, you know, a real job with very solid you know, federal government retirement accounts. So, that’s been nice to watch those finally like properly growing.

25:26 Emily: Yeah, it’s been my observation that if you’re not an employee, you do not have access to the 403(b) or 457. I actually don’t know why this is the case, but I’ve never seen an exception to it. Like yeah, I guess it has to do with like the rules behind what kinds of money can be contributed to a 401(k) or a 403(b), 457, these kinds of accounts. What I mentioned earlier, and you probably know this is, at the end of 2019 with the SECURE Act, there was a definitional change. So, 2019 and prior, fellowship-type income not reported on a W-2 was not permitted to be contributed to an IRA, an individual retirement arrangement. But that definition of what kind of money is allowed to be contributed to an IRA was changed by the SECURE Act.

26:18 Emily: And so 2020 and forward, you can contribute fellowship income not reported on a W-2, if you’re a graduate student or postdoc, to an individual retirement arrangement. I don’t know why a similar definition change could not occur for 403(b)s, 457s, et cetera. I just know that I’ve never seen it. I’ve never seen a non-employee be offered access to that particular benefit. Furthermore, at the graduate student level, it’s just very, very rare. Not totally unheard of, but rare, that a graduate student employee is offered access to those accounts. It does happen from time to time, but usually not. I’ve had a couple podcast episodes, and we’ll link in the show notes, where people have talked about as a graduate student contributing to those types of accounts. But again, it’s not common.

27:00 Jamie: I didn’t know actually about that change to the SECURE Act. Like I was still a postdoc in 2020 and I had had that IRA that I had opened like just before my fellowship started. But yeah, I definitely wasn’t contributing to it in 2020 and 2021. I had no idea that that was a possibility.

27:17 Emily: Yeah, I don’t think it was, I mean I talked about it a lot, but just like generally speaking, people make that assumption, right? That graduate students and postdocs are usually not able to contribute to a retirement account. So, why would we even have the conversation about whether they’re allowed to or not? Thankfully, someone was having the conversation because there was a change, right? Because I mean I remember that Senator Elizabeth Warren was a sponsor of this bill. There were other co-sponsors. It came up multiple times in the Senate and the House and it just never passed, multiple years, until it was rolled into the SECURE Act. There were a lot of other changes going on with how retirement accounts were being treated. So, it was kind of rolled into that and I’ll link in the show notes a couple of episodes we did right around that. But again, people make these rules. So, if people at the federal level decided that graduate student and postdoc non-employee income was legitimate in whatever, you know, little tax benefit they’re trying to offer, then it could become legitimate and maybe universities also would follow suit and start to offer that benefit. I actually don’t know why graduate students would be excluded from 403(b)s and 457s. Does it cost the university anything? Like a little more administrative burden to extend those benefits? I honestly don’t know why they wouldn’t for those students who can.

28:34 Jamie: Yeah, especially if it’s not a question of matching, if it’s just a question of contributing your own earnings into this account, right?

28:41 Emily: We can dream, Jamie, that there would ever be a match <laugh>. That’s a couple more steps down the road. No, some postdocs do receive matches or actually, I don’t know about you for being a postdoc in the UC system, but the UC system has a defined contribution level for their employees. I don’t know if it applies to postdocs, but in any case you might get that as an employee and then lose it if you, you know, then switch over to fellowship at a non-employee.

29:06 Jamie: Yeah, I believe in the UC system, I never got any kind of match, but I did have access to that 403(b) as well as I think a DCP.

29:15 Emily: Yeah.

“Non-Employee” Fellowship Income Legitimacy

29:16 Jamie: But yeah, I think it’s interesting that you describe it as like the legitimacy of being an employee and the legitimacy of that income. Because I often felt, you know, in addition to like the confusion and the frustration and wondering what to do that, I don’t know, it felt like an emotional hit. I felt unvalued when I’m put into this weird little category where my earnings don’t make sense and I can’t open an account and I can’t figure out how to pay taxes. I remember having like some really sharp juxtapositions between attending a professional conference and like giving a talk and talking to PIs in my field and having people really excited about the work that I was doing and then coming home a week or two later and trying to figure out some of my financial life and it being so confusing and seeing that there was just no support set up for it. And I went on this really kind of roller coaster from feeling like, “Oh, I’m a valued scientist and worker in this field,” down to like, “Oh, nobody really cares about me or the type of work that I’m doing.” So, I think it can have an emotional hit as well.

30:24 Emily: I’m so glad that you shared that. I think this is how we started our conversation at GCC actually, that fellowships and similar kinds of awards are supposed to be so prestigious.

30:35 Jamie: Exactly.

30:36 Emily: It’s supposed to be such an honor. It’s supposed to be based on your merit that you’ve received this. And yet the downstream effects are, well now you’ve been unclassified as an employee and your benefits are reduced. And I don’t know, maybe at some point in the past, the money made up for it. Like maybe you could make more as a fellow, which could make up for some of these issues. But I don’t know that that’s so much the case now. I was actually just seeing on Twitter today that like, you know, fellowship awards on certain grants are set at such a level that they’re below the minimums the universities have to pay their own graduate students and postdocs. So it’s like, well if you’re not even making more and the university has to make up some deficit in the award that you’re receiving, like what is the point of this when it has these negative implications later on?

31:27 Jamie: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think the point for, well you know, it’s a point for your PI, right? It saves them some money out of their budget, and otherwise it’s a line on your resume. You got this prestigious award, congrats. Here’s some prestige. Right?

Inherent Value of a Fellowship

31:44 Emily: This almost reminds me of like, I don’t know, I’m thinking like crypto, like a currency. Like it only has value because we’ve decided it has value, it doesn’t have inherent value. If it came with more money that would be inherent value, but would it still be actually worth it? How much money would it take to make up for some of these deficits that we’re talking about?

32:04 Jamie: That’s a good question, yeah.

32:05 Emily: Right. So like, not only is it maybe the retirement stuff that we mentioned. Now on the tax front, you’re not necessarily paying more in taxes, it’s just more difficult. But I will say there are certain tax benefits I know at the federal level that you’re not eligible for if you have only this non-employee kind of income. So for example, the earned income tax credit, which is supposed to be for low-income individuals, usually with children, multiple children who are not making enough money, they have to have “earned income.” And under that definition, as of now, 2022, fellowship income is not considered earned income. So, you can’t get the earned income tax credit. You also can’t get the child and dependent care tax credit, which was so valuable in 2021. It was massively increased in 2021. You can’t get it if, let’s say even if you’re married to someone else, let’s say I ran into this situation literally I had a question from this married couple, both postdoc fellows, could not take this tax benefit because they did not have earned income under the definition. Now, graduate students can take it because students have an exception. But postdocs, everybody forgets about the postdocs!

33:08 Jamie: Everybody forgets the postdocs, it’s true!

33:11 Emily: Postdocs don’t have this exception <Laugh>. Everybody forgets that postdocs exist and yet for some, in some career paths, you can spend just as much time as a postdoc as you will as a graduate student, maybe even if not more. It’s a very important life stage. There’s family formation going on, and yet they’re excluded from some of these benefits. And like we were just saying, it comes back to is this fellowship income considered earned income? And that term earned income is used all over the tax code or the way the tax code is interpreted. Now, it used to be used for retirement account contributions, then the term was changed, taxable compensation, then the definition of taxable compensation was changed to include fellowship income. So, why can’t this term earned income be changed to include this type of income? I think this brings up a bigger, even bigger, bigger question though, which is like what is earned income?

Earned Income: Great Expectations

34:04 Emily: What is the responsibility that you have when you receive this non-employee income? What’s the responsibility that your employer has to you or your non-employer has to you? What’s the responsibility you have to your non-employer? So, if you’re an employee, you’re expected to work and produce certain outputs, whether it’s teaching, research, whatever. If you’re receiving a fellowship, it’s much less clear what the outputs are supposed to be. You have to have outputs to continue to be on the fellowship. But what are they exactly? And I think that lack of definition is what’s going into this earned income, not, you know, fellowship income not being considered earned income.

34:39 Jamie: Yeah, no, I think you’re right about that and I think that’s how this ties into kind of bigger labor questions, right? About our graduate students. Should they be classified as employees? Are they workers or are they students? And these are, you know, big things that have big implications across the U.S. and especially for universities on not just tax status but on a lot of things about how academics do their work and how academics get paid.

35:08 Emily: I’m so thankful for this conversation because it’s really like stretching me to think about these like bigger issues exactly as you were just saying. Whether we’re on fellowship or whether we’re employees, is there actually a difference there? Why are these differences encoded at the university level, at the federal level, state level, if they don’t have much meaning to us at the functional day-to-day, month-to-month, year-to-year. I know I mentioned earlier about half my time as a graduate student was spent as an employee, half as a non-employee. Functionally, what is the difference between what I was doing one year versus another year? It felt all pretty much the same to me.

35:45 Jamie: Yeah, and I think I remember it being sold to me as if you receive a fellowship, you have more independence from your PI because you’re bringing in your own money so you can be more independent in, you know, what experiments you do or how you drive your project. But in actual experience of my own or talking to other people, their level of independence was really just dependent on their PI and how that PI ran their lab. And I didn’t know anyone who was able to be more empowered because they had the fellowship or were able to push back on PI demands because of the fellowship.

36:22 Emily: I did see people who received fellowships be able to switch labs when possibly that wouldn’t have been the case otherwise. They were more attractive to that PI like accepting them. And they could, you know, take some time to get up to speed or whatever, again, without some maybe output expectations of being on a different kind of grant or whatnot. But I think you’re right, you know, we’re both kind of speaking coming from like the biological sciences kind of research. There’s so much overhead, there’s so much cost to that. How much money is the student really bringing in versus how much is their research overall costing the PI and the university? And so, if that ratio is not that great in the student’s favor, I don’t think there’s much independence that they can advocate for. Now, if your cost of doing research is like pretty much only your salary if you don’t have those kinds of overhead from doing like wet lab experiments and so forth, then maybe there’s a better argument here about independence from the PI. And I think in the humanities fields, some of them, at any rate, my understanding from talking with people is that like they have a lot more independence anyway in their research questions. And so a fellowship could be even more in that direction. But, yeah, I do think this is very, very field dependent.

37:32 Jamie: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Future of Research

37:35 Emily: Well, this conversation has been so invigorating. Is there anything else that you want to share about your experiences or your observations or advocacy avenues that we can encourage listeners to take?

37:46 Jamie: I mean, I always love to tell people to check out the organization Future of Research. I used to serve on their board of directors and it’s a really great non-profit that kind of helps students and postdocs come together and crowdsource information and advocacy plans and push the field of research forward from the point of view of these early-career folks.

38:08 Emily: Excellent. And we will link in the show notes an interview that I did with Dr. Gary McDowell, the former director of Future of Research where we talked about post-doc salaries and post-doc work environments and how to, you know, choose a supportive PI and these kinds of questions. That’s excellent. Well, Jamie, I’m so glad that we got this interview out on the podcast that it didn’t just have to stay in the halls of the GFF conference, but that’s where great ideas are born with these like mixings and so forth and it was great to meet you in person and yeah, to be able to record this for the podcast listeners. So, thank you so much for coming on!

38:44 Jamie: Thanks, it was wonderful talking to you!

Outtro

38:51 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This Grad Student Fellow Resolved an Expensive Tax Bill in His Favor

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In this episode, Emily interviews Matty Dowd, a sixth-year PhD student in history at Princeton. Matty openly shares with us the tax horror story he lived for most of 2021 and into 2022. In 2018 and 2019, Matty reported his fellowship income as “other income” on his tax returns, which caused the IRS to mistakenly think that he owed self-employment tax. To compound the issue, the IRS’s snail mail communications never reached him. By the time Matty realized what was going on, the IRS thought he owed $16,000 in back taxes, penalties and interest. Matty reached out to multiple sources to help him resolve this, but ultimately used Emily’s workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), to explain to the IRS what had gone awry and have the issue resolved in his favor. It’s a harrowing story with a happy ending! You won’t want to miss Matty’s ending thoughts on the most effective way to approach tax and financial education.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Image for S14E2: How This Grad Student Fellow Resolved an Expensive Tax Bill in His Favor

Teaser

00:00 Matty: I’ll be very honest and upfront to the point where it may be a little bit embarrassing for me, looking back at how I handled this throughout these years.

Introduction

00:14 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 2, and today my guest is Matty Dowd, who at the time of the recording was a fifth-year PhD student in history at Princeton. Matty openly shares with us the tax horror story that he lived for most of 2021 and into 2022. In 2018 and 2019, Matty reported his fellowship income as “other income” on his tax returns, which caused the IRS to mistakenly think that he owed self-employment tax. To compound the issue, the IRS’s snail mail communications never reached him. By the time Matty realized what was going on, the IRS thought he owed $16,000 in back taxes, penalties, and interest. Matty reached out to multiple sources to help him resolve this but ultimately used my workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), to explain to the IRS what had gone awry and have the issue resolved in his favor. It’s a harrowing story with a happy ending! You won’t want to miss Matty’s ending thoughts on the most effective way to approach tax and financial education.

01:55 Emily: If you would like to sign up for the tax workshop Matty and I discuss during this interview or one of the sister workshops for postdocs or nonresidents, you can find everything linked from the Tax Center of my website, PFforPhDs.com/tax/. The first live Q&A call for this tax season will take place this Thursday, January 26, 2023. So, if you plan to file your tax return in January, I highly recommend joining the workshop now so you’re prepared with your questions by Thursday. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s14e2/. As ever nothing you hear on this podcast should be considered tax, financial, or legal advice for any individual. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Matty Dowd.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:52 Emily: On today’s episode, we are going to talk about one of my favorite subjects, which is taxes, but we do not have such a cheerful story. My guest today is Matty Dowd. He’s a fifth-year graduate student at Princeton in history. And he’s going to be telling us about a tax debacle <laugh> that he walked into a few years back, and that has taken a few years to unravel. So, it’s going to be a really like involved story. But for those of you who are confused about taxes or worried about taxes, <laugh>, this might be a really great episode to listen to and to share because a lot of people make the same kinds of mistakes that Matty did, and they get amplified and he’ll tell us how to resolve it or at least how he resolved it. So, really, really glad to have you on, Matty. Would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

03:36 Matty: Sure. Thank you for having me on! It’s great to be here. Yeah, so my name’s Matty. I’m a fifth-year PhD student, as was said. I studied at Tufts University for undergraduate and then did a master’s at the University of Paris. So, I went kind of straight through in the academic path, which may or may not be relevant to the later <laugh> discussion. And then I also worked a bit on the side and kind of continued to have over the past several years a mixture of like hobbies and other small jobs, translating, working as a resident assistant as a tour guide, playing piano at churches, tutoring, and that kind of thing. So, sort of supplementing my income with other hobbies slash skills that were somewhat related maybe to my interests.

Funding and Tax Preparation 2018-2019

04:23 Emily: Well, Matty, I’m really pleased that you’ve joined us because you’re going to share a tough story with us, but I know it’s going to be really beneficial to a lot of people. So, just for listeners’ notes, we are recording this in April, 2022. I’m planning to publish this in early 2023, but we are talking about events that started back in 2018, I believe. And so, Matty, tell us like for tax years 2018, and then I think you did the same thing again in 2019: How were you funded during those years? And like how did you prepare your tax return in those years?

04:56 Matty: Sure. So, in 2018 and 2019, I was on a university fellowship, so through my university, through Princeton. And in part of 2019 I was on what was called an assistantship, which was a bit different because I was a teaching assistant or a preceptor as we call them there. So, there was a W-2 tax form generated for this income, the assistantship income, that is. Whereas for the general university fellowship, there was no tax withholding, there was no W-2 form. And I also earned some side income in some of those other hobbies I referenced at the time. So, that was what comprised my income during those years.

05:35 Emily: So, I understand there was no tax withholding on the, what I call this awarded income, this like non-W-2 fellowship/stipend/training grant. There are different words for it, but I call it awarded income if it’s not reported on a W-2. You said that there was not any tax withholding, but did it show up anywhere? Did it show up on a 1098-T? Did it show up on a 1099? Anywhere?

05:54 Matty: Nowhere.

05:55 Emily: Okay. So, no tax reporting whatsoever. This is actually a pretty common approach, and it’s frustrating, but anyway, go on. How did you prepare your tax return?

06:05 Matty: <Laugh>, I should maybe say quickly before I say this kind of in general about this story, I’ll be very honest and upfront to the point where it may be a little bit embarrassing <laugh> for me, looking back at how I handled this throughout these years. But anyway, so here it goes.

06:21 Emily: The listeners are with you, don’t worry. A lot of people are in the same situation. I was, too, when I was early on in grad school.

06:29 Matty: Alright. So, I prepared the tax return myself primarily during these years using online software that was sort of available, like file your taxes, free filing, et cetera. I also didn’t pay estimated quarterly taxes during these years, even though I should have. And so, I essentially treated this, I used the filing software to kind of generate a lump sum number for the awarded income that I would then pay around the time I filed my taxes. So, obviously, this was not the right way to do this for a number of reasons, but it’s what I did for 2018, for 2019, and what I was doing for 2020 until I realized that there was a problem. And the last thing I’ll say about this is that I reported, and this will get into what the bigger problem was, that I reported my fellowship income as other income on the tax return. And so, this is what was going to lead to big problems for me down the road.

07:28 Emily: I have to say, Matty, that I did the exact same thing when I was in my first few years of graduate school. My university, Duke, does things a little bit differently because at that time they did withhold income tax from my awarded income stipend. But they issued a form 1099-miscellaneous [MISC] with Box 3 income. And so, if you look at like the instructions, like you didn’t get instructions right because you didn’t get a form. So, good on you for even like knowing that this was even taxable income. So, actually you did something right from the beginning, which was reporting it <laugh> even though you reported it slightly incorrectly. Like if you look at the instructions for what I was dealing with, it says report it as other income if it’s not self-employment income, which this wasn’t. So, I did that. And it turns out that was wrong. For me, it didn’t get caught in the same way that yours did probably because of how it was reported. So, I didn’t have the same outcome, but I started down the same path that you did. So, you are definitely not alone. I still talk to people to this day who have read my materials and are asking me, do I report this as other income? The answer is no, and we will see why.

IRS Notices During COVID

08:30 Emily: Okay. So, you know, you sort of mentioned that you figured out when you are going to file your 2020 tax returns, so that’s early 2021, right? That, you know, these errors had gone on. But let’s back it up and talk about what was happening from the IRS’s perspective. So, the IRS receives your 2018 year, 2019 returns, they see this other income. What are they thinking, and what are they trying to do to reach out to you?

08:53 Matty: So, the IRS is beginning to send me notices from, I guess it was around actually the summer of 2020, that the IRS began sending notices about my 2018 tax year. And, the thing was, I received none of the notices. This was also going to be a big part of the story. The reason for that, there are really two reasons. The first is that I had moved out of my Princeton graduate apartment abruptly at the start of COVID in March of 2020. And so, I was living in Massachusetts with my family, my sister, and her fiance, just kind of waiting out early COVID, not sure what was going to happen. I didn’t think to change my address on file with the IRS at that time, which in my slight defense I think was a reasonable thing to not think of.

09:45 Matty: The second problem though, which also gets back to another important part of why those tax filing softwares aren’t great if you don’t use them in the right way, is that the IRS didn’t even have my correct apartment number because I had typed it in correctly on the website, which I was able to go back and check, but that website generates a 1040 tax return form, which I didn’t look at before I submitted it and it cut off my apartment number. So, it said I lived at apartment 40 and not 405. So, even though after I left Princeton, I had, you know, set up a mail service through the USPS, who I don’t even know if that worked <laugh> to forward mail at home. And had I been at Princeton, you know, I know the building manager, they may have seen the letter and kept it aside for me, but in any case, not having the right address on my file did no benefits for me as the situation went on.

10:41 Matty: So, basically, yeah, from the IRS perspective, I didn’t respond to months of deficiency notices regarding 2018. And so eventually after not hearing from me, they just assessed a bill on my IRS online account for basically $7,500 in underpayments, penalties, and then fees, interest rather, associated with the non-paid taxes, which I didn’t discover until preparing my 2020 tax return in May of 2021 because it was a bit delayed during that year. Because of COVID, you could do it in May. And I saw this charge on my online account and obviously was very thrown off and surprised by that.

11:23 Emily: Okay, so in a second, I want to get to why this massive charge existed because again, you had paid what you thought was your income tax, you know, or in those earlier years. But first, I just want to take a little sidebar to tell you that I had a very similar experience with the Virginia Department of Taxation. So, state-level taxes. I moved from Virginia to North Carolina when I started graduate school. So, I was like a part-year resident in each state for that year. And for whatever reason in the next year, Virginia decided that I owed them income tax even though I was paying tax in North Carolina. And I had been a part-year resident the year before, which they supposedly should have known, but they could not track me down because I had moved multiple times near graduate school. I did not set up mail forwarding, which you were like, that’s great that you even thought of it.

12:10 Emily: I did not do that. I also got married and I changed my name. So like, they could not find me to like assess me what they thought was their tax bill. So, ultimately, that bill went to collections and I like freaked out when, this was like years later, they finally sent to collections. The collections agency immediately found me because guess what? They use things like your phone number, which the IRS does not do. The IRS will strictly only use mailing addresses. And so, anyway, the collections company found me and I was able to quickly figure out that this was just a completely like fabricated bill. Like I had no responsibility for this, and it was very easy to get it cleared up, but it really freaked me out when it happened because like, I’m supposed to be like this responsible financial person and I’m like sent to collections over something.

Incorrect Characterization of Fellowship Income

12:51 Emily: Like it’s really, anyway, I just think it’s not great that in the, you know, era that we’re in with all these other modes of communication that we have that they still rely on physical mailing addresses, but they do. That’s the policy. So, you know, we have to deal with it. So like, good on you for setting up mail forwarding <laugh>. Too bad that the address was actually wrong and blah, blah, blah, all these other problems. So, that’s my sidebar. What I want to ask you about though is, so why did the IRS think that you owed this massive tax bill?

13:19 Matty: So, this goes back to how I had characterized the fellowship income. So, actually in reality there were a few problems with the tax return for 2018, even apart from the address. But the major one, and the thing that I think raised the attention of the IRS, was the fact that I had reported this as other income, which they thought that I needed to pay self-employment taxes on. And this self-employment tax assessment was not a part of the number, the lump sum number I generated from those filing tax softwares. That was something separate that I was going to have to figure out on my own. And so, this is what led them to send the initial deficiency notice, which again, I didn’t receive, but based on the kind of the timeline, I think I figured out, would’ve come in the summer of 2020 to Princeton, with an underpayment of about $5,500 that they thought that I owed in self-employment and hadn’t paid.

14:17 Matty: And then the penalty, which was in part a function of by how much I’d underpaid, I would think it was an $1,100 penalty because I had underpaid by over $5,000 and then interest on that. So, that’s what they were really after. And if I can just add, so I’ve sort of referenced this already, but I realized I had, you know, this was after I had filed taxes for 2019, a long time before. So I knew I had the same problem for that income that I had done in the same way. And I guess we’ll maybe get into this in the next question, I don’t want to jump ahead, but just to say the low point was that in June of 2021, I started receiving notices about the 2019 tax year for about the same amount. So at one point, the Internal Revenue Service thought that I owed them about $16,000 between taxes, penalties and interest. So, that was kind of the low moment, but yeah, I hope I didn’t anticipate <laugh> your later questions there.

15:23 Emily: No, that’s horrifying for a grad student, that’s what, like 50% ish of your income for the year?

15:30 Matty: Yes.

Did You Know This Was a Mistake?

15:31 Emily: So, was there ever a point that you thought maybe they were right? Or did you know from the beginning that this was a mistake?

15:38 Matty: So, I didn’t know from the beginning that this was a mistake because I didn’t really understand how this works. I didn’t have the vocabulary to understand it. This also maybe gets into a bit where I found your site helpful and maybe I’ll say a bit more about that in a minute, but it was not really understanding it. And so this week in May of 2021, as I’m realizing that I have this charge from 2018, I’m preparing the 2020 tax return, wondering what went wrong and how to do things the right way, that I began to realize about this sort of other income question about really the specific nature of how to manage these sort of awarded income from university fellowships that don’t generate any documentation associated with them. What I will say is that I did very early in the process reach out first to my parents and then to my parents’ accountant who was, I’m sure that she’s very competent, was very nice, but didn’t have experience with this and actually thought that I did owe them that money.

16:44 Matty: And so, I was actually encouraged by a tax professional to pay the money, and then she was going help me draft a letter to try to get the penalties minimized because it was my first mistake. But around the same time I’m reading the IRS site, I’m finding your website, Emily, and even though I feel like am I being too, you know, is this hubristic of me to think that I know more than the tax professional, but I really sensed that no, this really was a mistake in how I characterized the income. I don’t actually owe it. But it was an open question for a few days whether I was right or not. And then obviously a separate question as to whether the IRS was actually going to agree that I was right or not.

17:26 Emily: Absolutely. I think it is so hard for graduate students and postdocs and anybody with this like weird academic income, as you said, to kind of like challenge or like stand up to or like correct someone who you’re paying <laugh> to help you with this process. Like who’s supposed to be an expert, but like, yeah, the fact is that they may not deal with these types of taxes very often. They may like, whatever, like you said, they’re very nice. They’re probably very competent in many areas. Like for example, small business taxes is probably what she’s much more familiar with than fellowship income. And so she was going down a route of like, oh yeah, this was self-employment income and oh yeah, these are correct, you know, charges, but like we can get the penalty blah blah. That’s a fine thing if like, the whole thing was right from the beginning, but it wasn’t. So, I would love to hear more about how you like discovered and then worked with the IRS, like to clarify for them that this was actually fellowship income that you should have never even thought to report as like other income that, you know, we just went off the rails from the start with that reporting like type.

18:28 Matty: Yeah. Yeah. So, what I was able to find out right away once I saw the charge on my account online was I could download the transcripts and records of accounts from 2018. Because remember at this point I still had received no notices about it. This is just me logging on very casually one night in May of 2021 to see if I got a stimulus payment in 2020 that I had missed. So, that 2018 tax record or record of account and transcript, which you can I think normally download from past tax years, helped me to see what was actually at issue and to see why the IRS had labeled what they had as penalties. What I then did, the good piece of advice I got from the accountant was to call the IRS either late in the day or early in the morning to try to get through and talk to someone, which I did.

19:23 Matty: And for anyone who’s called the IRS, and I would do this many times over the succeeding several months, it’s quite an experience. You know, sometimes you get people who are very helpful and knowledgeable, sometimes you don’t. Sometimes it takes a long time. Again, I was still at the stage where I was learning about this and like figuring it out. And so again, it’s difficult sometimes you don’t understand what people are telling back to you. But eventually what happened through a few phone calls in the days after I made the initial discovery was I talked to an IRS agent who basically told me that I could fax, he gave me a fax number, and said I could fax an explanation of my situation to what he called the reconsideration department, which sounded like 1984, kind of scary style instructions. But that was the first time that I talked to someone where there was a kind of glimmer of, okay, maybe there is going to be some potential light at the end of this tunnel.

20:24 Matty: So it was, in talking to those agents, I came to realize a number of the mistakes, which I’ve already communicated to you and began to see a way out of beginning to resolve the 2018 tax issue. I was also though a bit uncertain whether I should also talk to them about 2019, if that would just be confusing. Was that going to be bad for me in some way? I was almost treating it as though, I mean, I don’t have much experience like with lawyers or with like a criminal case or something, but as though I didn’t really know how to best talk to the IRS about some of these issues. And yeah, but I guess that first piece of advice was the beginning of the rest of the story.

Commercial

21:11 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is about to start heating up, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my tax resources, many of which I have updated for tax year 2022. On that page you will find free podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. The absolute most comprehensive and highest quality resources, however, are my asynchronous tax workshops. I’m offering three tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022, one for grad students who are U.S. citizens or residents, one for postdocs who are U.S. citizens or residents, and one for grad students and postdocs who are non-residents.

22:19 Emily: Those tax return preparation workshops are in addition to my estimated tax workshop for grad student, postdoc, and postbac fellows who are U.S. citizens or residents. My preferred method for enrolling you in one of these workshops is to find a sponsor at your university or institute. Typically that sponsor is a graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, postdoc association, or an individual school or department. I would very much appreciate you recommending one or more of these workshops to a potential sponsor. If that doesn’t work out, I do sell these workshops to individuals, but I think it’s always worth trying to get it into your hands for free or a subsidized cost. Again, you can find all of these free and paid resources, including a page you can send to a potential workshop sponsor, linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Helpful Advice: Finding the PF for PhDs Tax Workshop

23:20 Emily: So, let’s continue then. So, how did you ultimately figure out that, you know, you should have explicitly communicated this as being fellowship income, and that that miscommunication was at the root of all these other issues?

23:34 Matty: So, I think this is really where your website and especially your workshop on the, I forget the specific title, like filing a grad student tax return and understand it too. Something like that.

23:47 Emily: Yeah, it’s How to Complete your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!). If anyone wants to find it, you can go to PFforPhDs.com/taxworkshop. I will have the 2022, presumably, version of that available by the time this comes out. So, yes, go on.

24:03 Matty: Yeah, so I, you know, I think I had maybe found on the IRS website some information about this as I was looking around, but the clearest statement of and the most focused advice for graduate students in the situation that I was facing at least, I mean, not so much, you know, when you’re two years behind the ball and facing what I was facing with the IRS, but with just filing a tax return in general–because I still needed to do the 2020 one at that time–was through your website. And so that’s, I think when it became clearest to me about this other income that this was what sort of my problem had been and finding the steps that I would need to do in order to to do the 2020 return, right?

24:56 Matty: And then also in the communications that I was to have with the IRS, by faxing them info about 2018, how I should sort of write my statement explaining what had happened. So, I think that workshop was, I mean, it was helpful on its face for just filing a sort of a normal tax return and understanding what you’re doing, but it also helped me to find the words to explain to the IRS in writing and then, which I also then backed up with other documentation that I faxed along with it, related to the 2018 issue.

25:32 Emily: So, it is interesting to me that you found the workshop. And as you said, the workshop is great for like preparing your this year’s current year’s tax return. It’s not designed to like ameliorate past issues, as you said, I’m <laugh> I’ll actually link in the show notes. It sounds like you maybe didn’t find this through a Google search, but my old personal finance website, which is evolvingpf.com, I actually published a couple of posts from people who had been in your exact same situation. They had reported their fellowship income as other income, the IRS thought it was self-employment, and I actually published their accounts as well, like we’re doing here on the podcast, of how they fixed the issue. And like even they included the text of the letter that they sent to the IRS. Would you actually be willing to share like an anonymized version of the letter that you sent, or is that too much information?

26:20 Matty: No, no. Yeah, I’d be willing to do that.

26:22 Emily: Okay. So, we’ll set that up in the show notes. So, by the time this is published, we’ll have that all ready to go. So anybody else who finds this podcast episode later and is in the same situation, can at least not have to repeat all this research that you did and like have sort of a model to go off of, as you said, to have even the language to explain to the IRS. It’s funny because when you’re filing a fresh tax return, you can just sort of report your taxable fellowship number on your tax return, and the IRS you know, in whatever, 99.999 cases is not going to come back to you and say, “Wait, was this really fellowship income? Blah, blah, blah.” But once you go down your route of you have misreported in some way and they’re suspicious about it, then you have to back it up with documentation. Like you probably sent in your award letter, I would imagine, that like uses the word fellowship. Yeah, go ahead and talk about that.

27:04 Matty: Yeah, yeah, no, so I did, I mean again, at that stage too, I was just trying to gather as much information that would be potentially helpful or would, you know, show that I was kind of legit in the case that I was making. So, I probably sent way more than they <laugh> needed or cared to look at. But I think I did include the award letter and then even maybe like, not a pay stub, but some kind of like summary of, you know, year-end summary that showed at least that I was receiving income from Princeton University as a PhD student. Yeah.

Patiently Waiting for 2018 Tax Year Resolution

27:47 Emily: Yeah. And so, did all of that like fix the issue? I understand this took several months, played out, but like this ultimately was effective. Yes. So like what was the final outcome?

27:56 Matty: Yeah, so actually maybe first, let me just say, so this was all, that initial fax was all about the 2018 tax year. But meanwhile, I knew I had this 2019 problem. I felt good about the 2020 return that I was doing, because again, I had used your website and your workshop and felt like I knew what I was doing for the first time. But for 2019, in speaking with, I’d also reached out to someone at H&R Block, local to Princeton. And their advice was basically to file an amended return for 2019 to try to anticipate if the IRS is going to probably come after me for that year because they’ll think I made the same mistake, to anticipate that by filing an amended return. That was one advice. The second piece of advice was then for me to figure out if I thought I owed anything to the IRS from those years to pay it as basically right away or as soon as I could.

28:56 Matty: And so, I did both of those things for 2018 and for 2019 and, in fact, I thought I calculated that I did underpay in fact, by a few hundred dollars. And so, paid that, basically. So, by the end of May or maybe early June, I was, from my perspective, totally paid up. I didn’t know what they were going to do in terms of penalties and how that was going to work. And then for 2019, I submitted an amended return, which you can follow online, how it’s being processed and you know, it’s supposed to take, I think six to eight weeks, and it was so delayed because of COVID. So, I never even got word that it was received. I was worrying, I sent it in by sort of USPS. I was worried I didn’t put enough stamps on the package.

29:43 Matty: Like just these kind of silly administrative things that hang over you as you wonder and hear nothing about it. But anyway, so at this point then I had 2018, all the faxed information, and then 2019, the amended return. And it’s pretty amazing. I sent all that in May, and I heard nothing from the IRS about the 2018 fax from May 12th until Valentine’s Day of 2022. So, nine months. I had heard every three months I would get a letter from them saying, “Hi, we’ve received your information, which was reassuring, but we’re very busy, we’ll get to it as soon as we can.” Meanwhile, though, so this is the reconsideration department. The collections department is saying, “Hey, we’re going to file a lien or levy against your assets,” because from their perspective, this was a case open and closed, and I didn’t pay it, I didn’t challenge it, I didn’t respond.

30:35 Matty: So, they are not being as let’s say generous, that’s not the right word. Like the other side, the reconsideration department can take as much time as they need to process it. The collections department is not giving me that option, even as I explained to them what’s going on. But they’re saying, well, how do we know you have a legitimate case? Which from their perspective, it’s understandable why they would take that position. So, as this is playing out and I’m hearing nothing and just waiting, which is really the dominant part of the story, it’s the waiting in between this really frantic week in May until February to begin to hear stuff about anything actually occurring with my cases. It was being in touch with the collections department who actually I mean, they didn’t force me to, but I was highly encouraged to sign a payment agreement with them to agree to pay the 2018 taxes with the understanding that once they got to my case, if it turned out that I had, you know, paid them any more than I needed to, they would refund me the money.

31:44 Matty: And because I was nervous about what might happen, I mean, I don’t have a ton of assets <laugh>, I just didn’t know what was going to happen the longer that I was getting these sort of scary notices, final notices, and that they’re going to go after me. So, that was sort of a long-winded answer. But the major process was again, waiting, hoping the reconsideration department and amended tax return will be processed, and in the meantime, as the clock is ticking, beginning to get more notices about both years and about my needing to pay.

Agreeing to a 180-Day Payment Plan

32:18 Emily: So, ultimately, did you agree to a payment plan? Or did you hold out long enough that the reconsideration department got around to it?

32:25 Matty: So, I agreed to a 180-day, I guess I’ll be honest, I’m not entirely even sure how it was supposed to work. I agreed to, at the start of July of 2021, to a 180-day plan. And then at the end of that, I was then supposed to have made an agreement on how I was going to pay, which would include, you know, either a big lump sum or certain monthly payments. But when I made that agreement in July, I was thinking, okay, six months, like the reconsideration department is going to get it. I was so naive when I sent in that initial tax, I was like waiting the next day to get a phone call as though someone was just going to be there and call me. And so yeah, so July 1st, I do that. Six months, still not processed.

33:13 Matty: So, this is like right around Christmas now. So, I think the day after Christmas, I’m calling the IRS. Again, it’s intervening at all these different points throughout this last year of my life and making an agreement to pay them starting in February, $86 per month, until this thing is processed. Thankfully, the Valentine’s Day letter arrived and then it was in that letter where they made the adjustment to the taxes that I owed. And once they did that, the plan that I had agreed to pay was canceled, was sort of null. And yeah, so I received the February 14th letter, which reduces the tax burden by like $5,500, which is what I thought. It takes away the interest that I owed on that. It keeps, it doesn’t specify this, but it continues to say that I have like about $1,100 related to that tax year, which was the amount of the penalty.

34:11 Matty: So, I was wondering, okay, are they still keeping that penalty? Is that the right amount? Given that I didn’t underpay by as much as they thought. And so, I tried to get in touch with them over the phone, impossible. I’m like, I know how this goes, I’m just going to wait for the next notice. We’ll see. But then the ultimate resolution for 2018 came about a week later, which was I got a letter from the United States Treasury with a check <laugh> for $172 for the 2018 tax year. And then the next day, a notice from the IRS saying, we’ve adjusted totally for 2018. Like basically you’re closed out. We owed you $169 and $3 and 2 cents in interest. So, that was kind of how the 2018 resolution came about.

34:58 Emily: It’s amazing actually how much COVID impacted your story, right? From the move that made you not receive any of the notices, to the IRS being just incredibly backed up. Like I know the IRS gets, like, everybody loves to hate the IRS, but like they’ve had a lot to do <laugh> over the past couple of years, but like delayed deadlines and like the stimulus payments and then the advanced child tax credit payments, like that’s a whole new thing. Wow. Sending out like basic income to some people. They’ve never had to do that before. So like, yeah, it makes sense. They have been incredibly delayed. Maybe in a different year if COVID wasn’t impacting all of this, you would’ve gotten a response within a month or two or three months or whatever. Maybe the timelines would’ve worked out. But it’s good to know that you were patient <laugh>, you tried to get them to be as patient as possible with you. You agreed ultimately to that monthly plan, which is like, I mean, $86 a month is like not, I mean, whatever, it’s something, but compared to the amount that you actually owed, that’s a very small fraction. Or not actually owed, but they thought that you owed. Yeah.

Amended 2019 Tax Return

35:55 Emily: Okay. So, we know the 2018 resolution. For 2019, did the amended tax return work, or how did that play out?

36:02 Matty: No, so the 2019, they started sending me notices about it in June of 2021 before having processed the amended return. Which was obviously what I was trying to avoid, but in discussions then over the phone with the IRS, I was in a better position, I think, in terms of my discussions with them for being able to say, “Oh, I filed an amended return before you sent me this. I paid what I think I underpaid before you sent me this notice, and here’s all of the information.” And basically included, you know, sent a letter back to them, which included everything that I had on the amended return, and then how I came to those numbers. And so actually as we speak now, I’m still in the late stages of that. Yeah, so it was the same tax office dealing with the issue.

36:56 Matty: I think once they got to it, everything just kind of worked faster. So, it’s at the point now where the tax that I owe has been deducted for 2019, and I mean, unless something radical changes in the next few weeks, then I will have received either a check from the treasury for some kind of small amount, or maybe I’ll owe them a little bit more, something like this. But basically the same resolution of you listed the income as other income, you didn’t need to pay self-employment taxes on that. So, that’s where the 2019 stands. And I’ve heard nothing about 2020, which I think means actually, I don’t know, maybe I’ll hear something soon, but I did follow the workshop and I know what I’m doing much more than I did at that time. So, I feel pretty good about that year.

37:46 Emily: Yeah. And by the time we publish this, I mean, you can send me an update, everything went fine, it was resolved, you know, essentially in your favor or, oh, no bigger emergency. Let’s record a follow-up <laugh>. Okay. So hopefully it’ll all go through the way you expect it to.

38:01 Emily: Emily here, breaking in from post-production to give you Matty’s follow-up. Everything turned out exactly as he expected for 2019. The penalty was eliminated, and he actually ended up receiving a small refund.

Key Takeaway Points for Listeners

38:14 Emily: So, let’s kind of summarize a little bit. Key takeaway points for the listener who might be freaked out and facing a huge tax bill. By the way, I just want to say like a rule of thumb, on fellowship income, let’s say if you’re paying to the federal government more than like, I don’t know, much more than like a 10% effective tax rate, something has gone awry in this like process. So like, self-employment tax is going to be 15.3% of your income. So, if you have like 10-ish percent plus 15%, if you’re up at 25% of an effective tax rate, you know that you’ve been hit with self-employment tax. So, that’s my key takeaway of just like a sort of sanity check on how much tax do you actually owe? Don’t pay self-employment tax if you don’t actually owe it. But let’s go to your key takeaways.

39:00 Matty: So, I think my key takeaways, one of them is the “(Understand It, Too!)” parenthetical in your workshop title, because when I think back to why I got into that situation in the first place and how I sort of struggled in those early days to figure out what the problem was, I think really one of the major issues was that my approach to filling out the tax return was I was looking for a formula to just kind of input information, not have to really think about it. And then kind of hoping that everything went well and figuring that, okay, if I don’t hear anything from them, then it’s probably fine. And I didn’t hear anything for two years after starting to handle my tax return this way. So, I guess one major kind of lesson would be to really try to understand what it is that you’re doing.

39:52 Matty: And it is frustrating and I would say that most places, most websites, even the IRS website is not especially well suited to starting at a low level of knowledge of financial issues. This was one of the things that I appreciated about your website, Emily, was because I felt that it was not just how to file the tax return, but it was sort of talking about it in a way for people who aren’t used to doing that. And I think this maybe gets back to my going straight through my not having really had another full-time job apart from being a graduate student, not having a familiarity with this process in another setting that made me want to just not deal with it. I was a busy graduate student, I just figured I would be fine and I wanted the easiest way, which was that tax filing software.

40:40 Matty: So, I think once you get over the fear of not understanding the confusing nature of sort of filing taxes and paying these kinds of taxes, then it became easier to know what the problem was and know how to communicate about it. And then the second one, maybe a smaller takeaway, but again, it was just to be sort of cautious about where you get and how you get tax advice from people who don’t have experience specifically related to the types of issues that graduate students with this awarded income are facing. Because I got advice from, you know, reputable people, reputable websites that led me to the filing software to, you know, almost not that I was close to paying the initial tax penalty as I had been initially recommended to, but I mean, that’s thousands of dollars of difference if I’d just gone along and done that.

41:35 Matty: So again, maybe that returns to the first point of if you sort of know or have a better sense of of what you’re doing with a tax return and treat it that way as opposed to just, again, a chore you don’t want to deal with, or a formula that you’re looking to kind of take a shortcut with. That’s the better way to handle it. And I’ll say, I mean, I’m not an expert. I don’t mean to sound now that I have gone through this as though I know and understand everything about taxes, but at least you kind of know a little bit more and you know where the problems are, you know how to communicate. And I think that was really important for me in reaching the stage that I have at this point with the tax process.

Building Tax Vocabulary and Communication Tools

42:21 Emily: I’m really, really glad to hear you say that, that my material reached you <laugh> in a way that made sense to you that other places weren’t, because that’s really what I have been striving to do with both, you know, what’s available free on my website, pfforphds.com/tax, and also through the tax workshops. I really do want to give you those, like the vocabulary and the communication tools because I’m sort of a fan of people preparing their own tax returns, like completely manually, but I understand that most people don’t do things that way. And so, I’m trying to give you the vocabulary to like translate between what you know about your own income and expenses as a graduate student, for example, and being able to talk to an accountant or being able to interface with tax software or talk to the IRS or whatever is needed to give you that like translation ability. Yes. So, I’m glad to hear that it worked out that way for you. Is there anything else that you’d like to tell us about this story as we’re concluding here?

43:13 Matty: I guess maybe to say, yeah, I hope this didn’t come off as, you know, me trying to sound like a victim of the IRS. I mean, I think there were some issues in terms of the timing, the way that it worked out, the really frustrating bureaucratic aspects of it. But I also, you know, I made some mistakes, too, throughout the process. And so yeah, I guess it was kind of yeah, I just hope it didn’t sound like me whining about the annoying, you know, scary IRS. There were some people that I talked to there who were quite helpful and, you know, I think the most important thing was just, as you said, kind of being able to find that language to communicate with them about the specific issues, and then kind of waiting out the process which you have to do when you’re dealing with something like this.

44:08 Emily: I think what we briefly mentioned earlier, but like we talked about this with respect to the accountant that you went to, but it’s also true for the people you talked to at the IRS. They’re way more familiar with self-employment income and small business income because there are so many small businesses in the United States who have, you know, some kind of trouble and turn to resources for filing their tax returns compared to graduate students and postdocs and other people with awarded income. It’s just such a more common situation. They want to fit you into a box, that’s what they’re familiar with. And so, you as a person receiving awarded income, I think should be kind of forewarned that that’s going to happen and be able to say to them, “No, I am very confident this is not contractor income. This is not self-employment income. I do not have a business. I received fellowship income or grant income or whatever it is.”

44:52 Emily: And so, to be able to firmly say that to them will help hopefully redirect them down the correct line of thinking and away from the most common scenario, which is this other self-employment stuff. So, I’m really glad that you brought that up. I also am glad that you mentioned that there is just a lot of waiting involved with these, you know, filling, you know, figuring out the transcripts and like submitting the amended returns and all of this stuff. Yeah, that’s kind of part and process with this whole process. So, we’re getting the very, very condensed version of the story, but obviously, it took like, well, it took multiple years for this to play out in total.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

45:23 Emily: Okay, Matty, thank you so much for sharing this story. It’s really amazing. I hope it, you know, prevents people from going down the same, you know, the initial mistake and then the amplification of that mistake that you had to go through. So, I want to leave the listener with the question that I always ask my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on in the course of this conversation, or it could be something completely new.

45:50 Matty: So, I’ll stick with a similar theme. I mean, part of me hardly feels in a position to offer financial advice after the story I told, but what I would say is that, and I think this is especially applicable maybe for PhD students, is that if you are learning about some kind of financial topic, taxes, things like this, that you should ask stupid questions if you don’t understand something. I think PhD students, I certainly am, are on guard against wanting to sound stupid in, you know, seminars around professors, you sort of keep to yourself, you hide the things that you don’t know and try to present yourself in as best a light as possible, which is understandable. I get that, but I don’t think it works well with dealing with some of these topics. And, you know, everyone says, well, there are no stupid questions or you’re probably not the only one with the question, which is probably true, but I would add that even if you are the only one with a question, and even if it is a stupid question, that it’s better to humble yourself at the stage of learning something than to risk kind of misunderstanding and creating a much bigger problem for yourself down the road.

47:00 Matty: So, I guess it’s a sort of maybe I wish that I’d had a little bit more humility to ask questions and rather than just go along and pretend that I understood something at different, you know, workshops about taxes or things that I had been privy to in the past to actually just ask. And, and from there, I would’ve been in a better position. So, that’s what I would say.

47:25 Emily: I really, really love that advice. And I’ll take one final opportunity to plug my workshop, How to Complete your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), PFforPhDs.com/taxworkshop. What I really like about this format, which it’s now like all these prerecorded videos, that’s probably the version that you went through as well, is that you can watch these videos as many times as you want. You can pause them, you can Google a term if I didn’t define it properly or whatever. You can take your time to really understand what’s going on. And then if you still have a question, show up at one of the many live Q&A calls that I hold for this workshop and just ask it there, because frankly, like asking me what you consider to be like a stupid question, I can probably answer it in like five seconds and it might take you an hour of reading other material to figure out what it is about your, like, misunderstanding at base that made you have that question.

48:14 Emily: So like, it’s just so much more time efficient <laugh> to enroll in something like my workshop and have access to me to ask those kinds of questions or, you know, whatever, work with another professional, that’s fine. But to just as you said, be willing to do it and have a person you can go to to ask those questions. That’s what I’m trying to provide with this tax workshop. So again, Matty, thank you so much for this interview. I think it’s been a harrowing story but really, really illuminating. I know it’s going to help a lot of people, because you are not alone, as you said. I made the same error, like it just didn’t get amplified in the same way yours did, but I made the same error. A lot of people make the same error. So thank you so, so much for sharing this.

48:50 Matty: Yeah, thank you so much for having me and again, for the work that you do with the podcast and the website. It was obviously extremely helpful to me and I’m sure it is to many others. So, thank you.

49:00 Emily: Yeah, thank you for saying that.

Outtro

49:07 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Catching Up with Prior Guests: 2022 Edition

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Emily published the first episode of this podcast in July 2018. This is the 176th episode, and over the last four and a half years, the podcast has featured 156 unique voices in addition to Emily’s. This last episode of 2022 catches up with the guests from Seasons 1 through 9. The guests were invited to submit short audio updates on how their lives and careers have evolved since the time of their interview. They also included their best financial advice for an early-career PhD if their answer has changed since the initial interview.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Teaser

00:00 Sarah: I wasn’t ready to think about my finances until my forties <laugh>. And it’s not too late as it turns out. So, trust yourself, you’ll get there. Do it in your own way.

Introduction

00:19 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance.

00:26 Emily: I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

00:36 Emily: This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.

00:49 Emily: This is Season 13, Episode 9, and today I am featuring many guest voices! I published the first episode of this podcast in July 2018. This is the 176th episode, and over the last four and a half years, the podcast has featured 156 unique voices in addition to my own.

01:12 Emily: For our last episode in 2022, I thought it would be fun to catch up with the guests from Seasons 6 through 9, and a few from earlier seasons as well. I invited them to submit short audio clips to update us on how their lives and careers have evolved since the time of our interview, as well as to provide their best financial advice if that has changed since our initial interview. We have some very big and very exciting updates this year, and I’m confident you are going to appreciate the perspectives that these guests bring.

01:45 Emily: The audio clips in this episode are ordered by when the original episode was published. If you’d like to circle back and listen to any of the previous interviews, you can do so in your podcatcher app or at my website, PFforPhDs.com/podcast. To keep up with future episodes, please hit subscribe on that podcatcher and/or join my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice.

02:14 Emily: You’ll hear an update from me first, followed by the rest of the guests.

02:18 Emily: You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e9/.

02:25 Emily: Happy listening, happy holidays and happy New Year! See you in 2023!

Dr. Emily Roberts

02:35 Emily: This is Emily Roberts from Personal Finance for PhDs. I am of course the host of this podcast and you hear from me every week.

02:44 Emily: On the personal side, nothing can really top the update I gave you last year about finally becoming a homeowner. My family has been in our house in north San Diego county for about a year and a half now, and life is very sweet here. We have really integrated into our neighborhood and community. This year, I rediscovered a pastime from my youth, which is reading—voraciously. Through college, grad school, and early parenthood, reading fell by the wayside for me, but I picked it up again after tax season ended. I haven’t kept close track, but I think I’ve read a few dozen books in the last 8 months, almost all from the library, of course! One that really made an impression on me was Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. I recommend it to anyone who is inclined toward over-saving and expects to have a good income for your career, even if you’re still in grad school or your postdoc. Relatedly, I’ve been inspired to have more adventures and vacations and such with my family, and I’ve gotten back into the credit card rewards game to help fund that.

03:52 Emily: As for my business, Personal Finance for PhDs, 2022 was another awesome year with strong growth. I’ve gained a lot of clarity on how I want to spend my time, and I’m implementing more productivity and time management strategies. In 2022, I attended two in-person conferences and delivered several in-person speaking engagements, which was so so rewarding. I didn’t realize how intense my Zoom fatigue was! Going forward, I’m promoting my live in-person seminars and workshops and my pre-recorded workshops and demoting my live remote webinars. If you want me to teach you and your peers about taxes, investing, increasing income, student loans, frugality, home ownership, etc. etc., please connect me with a potential host at your university. I appreciate these recommendations so much.

04:50 Emily: Thanks for listening to my update! If you want to get in touch, you can visit my website at PFforPhDs.com or email me at [email protected].

Dr. Caitlin Faas

05:07 Caitlin: Caitlin Faas here, helping experts get off the hamster wheel for good, as a master certified life coach. I was on season one, episode number seven way back in 2018, and I also gave an update last year where I was a tenured faculty member, became a department chair, and then left in 2020 to coach full-time and paid off all my debts with my husband, and you can hear those updates.

05:27 Caitlin: But in the past year, I’ve had some huge life transitions that I also want to give you an update on. So my husband and I decided to get divorced in January of 2022, and in April, he died unexpectedly before paperwork was filed, so I became a legal widow. And of course, the grief is devastating and it was something I never wanted to happen, and yet I also prepared for it with him financially. We had created our wills together; the idea of death and either one of us being a widow had been on my mind because I’m a developmental psychologist by training, and it was something I listened to, people who were widows, what they wish people had known, and I’m so grateful I listened, even though the statistics were never gonna happen, that one of us was gonna die before we grew old together, right? And yet it did.

06:42 Caitlin: And so taking the time now, my advice for you, take the time to write down your passwords for someone else. Check in about your financial status and showing it to somebody else that’s important in your life so that they know, I wasn’t prepared with all of those things, we hadn’t taken those steps, but, you know, some of the next financial steps are the legal will. What happens if you do lose someone important to you, will you have the capacity to work? Can you put yourself in a position of you’d be able to take off time if you needed to, if you wanted to? And taking a few minutes now will pay off if it ever does happen. I hope it doesn’t. And yet having awareness and not being afraid of it, not pushing it away, or thinking it would be like the worst thing ever can be so beneficial for your financial health. I’d really like to not have huge updates in the next year, and we’ll see what happens as I prepare for it and ride the waves of life coming at me. Best of luck as your life unfolds this year, too!

Dr. Sam Zelenka

08:05 Sam: Hi, this is Sam Zelenka from Government Worker FI. I talked with Emily in season three, episodes eight and nine about the FIRE movement, financial independence, and retire early. And I wanted to give everybody a big update about how we’re doing on our financial independence journey. About a year ago, I decided to work part-time, and this was possible because we were saving up a ton of money and preparing for full financial independence or leaving the workforce entirely. But, we decided that actually it would be really great if I could keep doing my job, just do less of it. I was able to negotiate working part-time with my employer, and I now still am a PhD, pretty academic type person, doing research, but I only do that part of the time and I have a lot more time to spend with my family and my pets and just enjoy life at a little bit slower pace.

Dr. Zach Taylor

09:15 Zach: Hey everybody, this is Zach Taylor. I’m currently an assistant professor at the University of Southern Mississippi, and I was on the Personal Finance for PhD’s podcast on [season 5] episodes 10 and 11. I can give a couple of personal updates after bouncing around to a few jobs during the pandemic. I finally was able to earn a job that is really a great fit for me at the University of Southern Mississippi, so I’m very happy about that.

09:42 Zach: Something that is just something interesting financially is that relocation assistance provided by institutions. My institution did provide relocation assistance, but when I asked about it, they said that very few people ask about it, and even fewer people actually keep receipts and document their expenses. One suggestion I would give to really early career PhDs who are either on the job market or are looking to relocate, is be very clear with your hiring manager about any relocation costs that they will reimburse you for and keep all of your receipts. I had to actually submit original paper receipts from gas stations and the moving company, and when I bought cardboard boxes, I needed to keep those paper receipts. They would not take electronic receipts. I had to have them printed off in paper from the original source. And so be very, very clear with your hiring manager, about that.

10:47 Zach: But a lot of the advice that I gave about sniping great grocery prices using coupons, I still do that all the time. I actually just discovered that the Walmart near where I live in Hattiesburg, they discount meat every Thursday. And so I usually go and check on Thursday afternoons to see what grocery items have been discounted. Then I buy those and I freeze them, and it’s as good as if it were fresh to me at least. So that is something that I continue to do in a habit that I continue to kind of implement in my everyday life. If you have any questions or want  to get in touch with me, my email address is [email protected]. That’s the letter U texas.edu, and I wish to everyone the best.

Dr. Sean Sanders

11:34 Sean S.: Hi, Emily. I was delighted to join you back in June, 2020, which I believe was episode eight of season six for a fun conversation about my financial journey and especially my desire to retire early. I wanted to send a quick update on what’s happened since we spoke. And my exciting news is that as of early next year, that’s 2023, I’ll be leaving my current job at AAAS and semi retiring. I’m still a little stunned that I managed to get to this point, but here I am. I’ll still lightly be doing some consulting work in my field, but I’m also taking a sharp turn away from editing to become a dog trainer. This has been a goal of mine for many years, and I feel like it brings together my love for dogs with my scientific curiosity. I want to understand how dogs think and perceive their world as a pathway to improving our communication with them.

12:40 Sean S.: I’m also planning to do some volunteering with some local organizations, particularly to help people with some of their basic personal finances. I’ve been thinking about early retirement or semi-retirement for a few years now, as we talked about in my 2020 interview. And I’ve been working hard to save since my first postdoc, really, and wanted to be able to enjoy the benefits of all of that effort before I was too old to do things like traveling and volunteer work and, you know, pursue some other passions. There were really two precipitating events that led me to pulling the trigger and finally making this, this decision. The first was that I felt really burnt out at my job, which I’ve been at for 15 years, and really felt that a change was needed. The second is the long bull market that we’ve enjoyed for the last 10 years or more that has grown my investments to the point that I could feel comfortable making a move to part-time work.

13:44 Sean S.: To be honest, I’m still a little nervous with all the talk of the impending recession, but I’m staying the course and have put some safeguards in place to mitigate any risk of a recession, like having a bit more cash available to get me through the next two years. This is a big move, so wish me luck. I’m excited about the prospect of still staying in touch with my science roots, but also branching out into some new and exciting areas. If I were to offer any advice to early career graduates, I’d say do your best to focus on your long-term financial goals and remember that as the saying goes, time in the market is better than timing the market. So start investing early and try not to get caught up in the daily news cycle. Thanks so much for this opportunity and stay well!

Dr. Sean Bittner

14:41 Sean B.: Hey there, this is Sean Bitner. I was interviewed by Emily on Personal Finance for PhD’s season six, episode 12 and season 10, episode 14. In the most recent episode, Emily and I discussed comparing job offers after defending my thesis, the main components of a non-academic job offer, and how to prepare for the job hunt. Since our interview aired, I’ve been able to complete my accelerator’s first cohort, and I had an opportunity to work with a group of really incredible medical device company founders. I’ve also continued my coaching work and I’ve begun leadership education at the undergraduate level. Here, I’m teaching students about important leadership and communication skills that they can use, not only while they’re in college, but also as they move out into their first jobs. On a personal note, I still love to travel, which you’ll remember from season six, episode 12. Since last year, my wife and I have taken an incredible trip to South Africa, and by the time this recap episode comes out, we’ll be gearing up for a trip to Japan.

15:39 Sean B.: To add on to my advice from previous episodes, I want to again, encourage listeners to be looking for how they can fit their PhD work or their new job into their broader life and goals, rather than trying to squish their broader life and goals into their studies. If you’d like to connect with me, you can find me on Twitter @lifescicoach, on Instagram @seanwithoutanh S E A N or on LinkedIn. I’m also taking new coaching clients, so if you’re curious about leadership coaching and want to learn more, feel free to reach out to me. Thank you again to Emily and her team for having me on the podcast and thank y’all for listening and I hope you have a great holiday season. Bye!

Dr. Travis Seifman

16:25 Travis: Hi Emily and listeners, my name is Travis Seifman and I was featured in season seven, episode four, where I talked about the pros and cons of university housing. At that time, I had just finished my PhD in history at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and was preparing to move to Japan to take up a postdoc position where I remained today as a project researcher at the University of Tokyo’s Historic Graphical Institute. Life here in Tokyo is good. I feel extremely fortunate, just so lucky to have landed the position that I did and to be able to be living the life that I am now. In contrast to paying a thousand dollars a month for a poorly maintained basic amenities housing in a middle of nowhere California town, I’m now paying 92,000 yen a month, that’s about $650 with the current exchange rate, or closer to 800 and more normal times, for a nice apartment right in Central Tokyo. Excellent, basic amenities, excellent location in one of the greatest cities in the world. I’ve been fortunate too in that I’ve been able to save a considerable amount of money from being on this postdoc. So fingers crossed, depending on what job or lack of a job I may have after this, the academic job market being what it is, I’ll at least have a sizable savings to fall back on, in case my financial situation becomes tight again.

17:46 Travis: I would offer two points of advice to current grad students regarding housing. One, do what you can to investigate research institutes in the area that might offer housing or other alternative housing options. When I first arrived at the University of Hawaii for my masters, East West Center was a mystery to me – a research institute that I had no connection with, no idea about, no sense that I could potentially move in there, and yet I di and I found in the East West Center a wonderful community in a building where I paid $400 a month to live right off campus instead of a thousand dollars a month to live alone, a long walk or bus right away, somewhere out in town. It can be difficult to know what’s hiding in plain sight sometimes right on our campuses or in our city, so do what you can to find these possibilities.

18:32 Travis: Second, organize and agitate. As I record this in mid-November 2022. As you may well know, nearly 50,000 grad students and the like across the University of California are on strike, striking for better pay and better working conditions. When our institutions won’t act on their own to create affordable, pleasant, supportive environments for students and faculty, but instead put other priorities ahead of that, they need to be held to account and to be pressured to change and to do better. I hope that these strikes lead to positive change at the UC and across the country. Good luck to you all and solidarity.

Commercial

19:10 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude!

I’m hard at work behind the scenes updating my suite of tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022. These pre-recorded educational workshops explain how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return.

For the 2022 tax season starting in January 2023, I’m offering three versions of this workshop, one each for US citizen/resident graduate students, US citizen/resident postdocs, and non-resident graduate students and postdocs. That third workshop is brand-new this year, and I’m very excited about it.

While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the end users, graduate students and postdocs, can access them for free.

Please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, etc. to request that they sponsor one of my tax preparation workshops for you and your peers. I’d love to receive a warm introduction to a potential sponsor this month so we can hit the ground running in January serving those early bird filers.

You can find more information about licensing these workshops at PFforPhDs.com/tax-workshops.

Now back to our interview.

Diandra from That Science Couple

20:52 Diandra: Hi there, this is Diandra from That Science Couple and I was on the PFforPhDs podcast season seven, episode 10. I was talking about working before starting a PhD and the financial and career advantages that go along with that. Emily asked me if I could provide you an update with what I’ve been doing in the last year and so in 2022, I completed my preliminary exam and became a dissertator. My research is on diet and lifestyle factors and on the impact that they play in the risk of developing vascular dementia and white matter hyperintensities, and I’m set to graduate in spring of 2023.

21:29 Diandra: On the personal side, this past year, I took a once in a lifetime trip with my husband and parents to Italy and I overcame a major health crisis. Both of these things directly relate to what I talked about in my episode that by having a financial cushion before I entered my PhD program, it was much easier for me to handle an overseas trip and also to afford the healthcare related expenses because I had an HSA and investments to fall back on from my previous employer.

21:57 Diandra: This year, I also launched That Science Coaching and my program is evidence-based nutrition coaching in which I help others to identify food allergies, create a healthy lifestyle, and prevent or manage chronic illness through diet and lifestyle changes. When I was on the PFforPhDs podcast, my best financial advice for early career PhDs was to fight lifestyle inflation. And while I still believe that this is very important, I think you should also keep investing in yourself and in your health. While I was going through this major health crisis, I realized that it’s easier to maintain your health than to regain it, so if there are small things that you can do on a weekly basis, such as yoga or working out for self care, it’s gonna help your mental health and also your physical health. While we work really hard in the lab, I think it’s important to actually unplug and take the time to relax when you’re on vacation.

22:53 Diandra: If you’d like to contact me or follow our blog, we are online at thatsciencecouple.com. We’re also active on Twitter @science_couple and Facebook @thatsciencecouple. I’m currently accepting new clients, so if you’re interested in my program, please don’t hesitate to contact me. To wrap things up, I’d like to thank Emily for asking me to do this update. I hope everyone has a great end of their year, and please keep listening to the PFforPhDs podcast.

Dr. Samantha McDonald

23:25 Samantha: Hi, My name is Samantha McDonald. I was on season eight, episode three and I was discussing in particular in this episode, knowing your worth in an environment that devalues you work, and looking especially at someone who made more money than a lot of people in the the department at that time. Life has changed a lot. <laugh> I got my PhD woo-hoo about a year and a half ago in, I believe it was either March or May of 2021. After doing so, I took a three month break after my PhD as almost like my mini wellness sabbatical. I took a sailing class for two weeks in the Catalina Island to learn how to sail catamaran. I worked on a farm in a seek community in New Mexico for a few weeks, which was amazing. And I backpacked the High Sierra Trail in the Sierra Nevada of California, which is also amazing. It was a great break! I recommend to anyone after their PhD take a few months off. Even my partner spoke to a Nobel laureate who said that one of his biggest regrets was not taking some time off between his PhD and post-doc. It made all the difference in the world.

24:46 Samantha: After that was over, I started working full-time in industry actually at Meta, which was at the time Facebook when I joined the company. I still work for Meta, and I have for the past year and around I’d say three to five months, which has definitely been an insightful experience. Financially I am in a position I’ve never been before with making more money than I ever have or probably ever will in my life, so my finances are doing great. I save 50% of my paycheck still because I’m still in this super save mode. And luckily Meta provides a financial planner, who has been super helpful in making sure I’m making the right investment opportunities when I’m still young, still can take risks, but also figuring out some other plans.

25:33 Samantha: Personally, and the reason why I say Meta is as much money as I’m gonna make ever is I’m actually quitting my job in a few months, starting in January. Not because in particular I didn’t like my job or didn’t like industry, but mostly because I made a promise to my partner that when he finished his PhD, which is gonna be happening soon, we’d take a year off and live on a sailboat that we bought together. That’s happening very soon. It’s very different than what I thought I’d be doing, but we’ve saved up enough money, especially with my tech job that it’s a very cheap way to live financially and have an adventure for a year with his one year sabbatical after his PhD. After that, we’re going to New Mexico for a postdoc for him, and I’ll figure it out. I don’t know what I’m gonna do yet, but there’s something exciting about that, of taking a year off and just taking some time to breathe.

26:23 Samantha: My financial advice is still the same. Keep saving as much as possible, but taking as much time off and really understanding your worth and your value, it’s super important. And just understanding how much you’re worth and knowing that sometimes in industry, you’re overqualified for jobs in ways that you don’t realize that you’re there. So I’ve learned a lot in the past year and a half working in industry and I can’t wait to learn more. Contact info – my email is still the same. You can still contact me. Also, if you’re just interested, Michael and I, my partner, have started a YouTube channel for our sailing adventures, just for us to remember for ourselves and for our family to see. It’s called Sailing Ambrosia, A M B R O S I A, Ambrosia. It’s named after Michael’s grandmother. So if you’re just interested to see our adventures after PhD, it’s there too.

Dr. Jacqueline Kory-Westlund

27:14 Jacqueline: Hello, I’m Jacqueline Kory-Westlund. I was interviewed in season eight, episode eight. In that episode, I talked about how my husband and I managed our work and finances while I was in grad school so that we were able to start a family. Yes, I had my first baby as a fourth year PhD student, and then when I graduated we bought our own home in cash. We’ve continued to choose flexible work arrangements and prioritize our family. And now I’m excited to share that I have a book forthcoming from Columbia University Press, tentatively titled “#PhDone: How to Get Through Grad School Without Leaving the Rest of Your Life behind”. It’s the book I wish I’d been able to read as a student, a pragmatic how to guide on flourishing in grad school, both personally and professionally. And alongside all the life balance tips, you’ll find a whole chapter about grad school finances. You can find me on Twitter @JacquelineKory or on my website www.jakory.com.

Elana Gloger

28:25 Elana: Hi, I’m Elana Gloger, host of Dear Grad Student, and I’ve been on the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast twice. I was on season eight, episode nine where Emily and I did a financial coaching session; season 10, episode 17, where we talked all about me doing a side hustle while in grad school; and I’ve had Emily on my podcast, Dear Grad Student, she was on for episode 27 with another graduate student where we talked generally about grad school finances and episode 56 where we talked more in depth about surviving tax season.

28:59 Elana: Since you last heard from me on this podcast, I have become a PhD candidate. I’ve submitted a really exciting grant and I’m only a year and a half away from graduation. In terms of finances, I have finally almost finished saving up my emergency fund. I’m still throwing a little bit of money in that Roth IRA even though Emily told me not to. It’s just a little bit, and honestly, I’m still fighting a little bit with debt, but I know that that’s what comes along with making $20,000 a year, so mostly I’m trying to make sure that I’m setting up patterns for myself so that when I make a little bit more money, it, you know, it’ll all work out.

29:36 Elana: The best financial advice that I have for an early career PhD is don’t be afraid to budget for things that you enjoy. That way you won’t overspend if you know that you’re allotted a little bit, even with a small budget to start with. If you wanna hear more from me or Dear Grad Student, you can find the podcast Dear Grad Student anywhere on any podcast app. You can check out the website deargradstudent.com for literally everything related to the podcast, including ways to contact me, to support the podcast, and even merch, lots and lots and lots of merch! You can also find the podcast on social media. You can look up deargradstudent on Facebook. We’re @deargradstudent on Twitter @deargradstudentpod on Instagram and now on TikTok, @deargradstudent. Thanks again to Emily for having me twice on the personal Finance for PhD’s podcast. Hopefully you’re all hearing my voice again soon and have a good holiday season.

Dr. Sarah Birken

30:34 Sarah: Hey everyone, this is Sarah Birken. I am an associate professor in the Department of Implementation Science at Wake Forest University School of Medicine. And Emily interviewed me in episode 12 of season eight, and we talked about my early financial decisions in that episode. I’ve always been pretty assertive when it comes to negotiating salary and startup, but I’ve also been very passive with my personal finances. That all had to change when my partner, who is a personal financial planner, and I separated. Since then I’ve gotten very serious about managing my finances and my sister has been helping me since April really get my finances in order using YNAB, the You Need a Budget App, which Whitney Robinson, my co-host from AcaDames has always advocated for.

31:31 Sarah: Since I have been very scrupulously managing my finances, I’ve noticed a couple of things. One is that it’s unbelievably empowering <laugh>. I get to decide what I spend my money on and kind of just accept full responsibility for it. And I don’t have to answer to anyone for my decisions, which is lovely. And also I do have to answer to myself, so it’s caused me to be a lot more thoughtful and dare I say philosophical about what money is for in my life. The other thing I’ve noticed is that I’m focusing much more on managing my startup budget from my position. It’s something I’ve been starting to track as carefully as I do my personal finances and again, kind of bringing in this philosophy of what do I care enough to spend this money on that my institution has provided to me so that I can be an asset to them. I think the only additional advice I would give to early career folks is trust yourself. I wasn’t ready to think about my finances until my forties <laugh>. And it’s not too late as it turns out. So, trust yourself, you will get there. Do it in your own way. You can reach me on Twitter @BirkinSarah. Thanks everybody!

Dr. Lindy Ledohowski

33:22 Lindy: Hi everyone, this is Dr. Lindy Ledohowski. I spoke with Emily in season eight, episode 15, and she titled our conversation “How a Boom and Bust Money Mindset from Grad School Serves this Startup Founder Well”, and what we chatted about was the ways in which being a graduate student prepared me for some of the ups and downs of my post professorial life as a startup founder. I left my tenure track job as an English professor and I co-founded and then led academic writing startup, Essay Jack since I last chatted with Emily, Essay Jack has been acquired and I joined the acquiring company so I can add driving a startup through an acquisition to my resume. And I would say that that boom and bust money mindset that I carried over from graduate school into the ups and downs of startup life for five years into the acquisition and now I am Chief Operating Officer at Wise Prep, the company that acquired Essay Jack, that boom and bust Money Mindset has served me well all along the way. And luckily now I’m at a boom phase in life post-acquisition and we continue with the adventure as Essay Jack is reborn as Wize Writer part of the Wize Prep family of educational resources. So that is my little update since I last chatted with Emily about my post academic life and the way that I thought about finances as a graduate student and how that carried over into the very different world of entrepreneurship and startup life.

Rutendo Chabikwa

35:19 Rutendo: My name Rutendo Chabikwa of the So You Got a Scholarship podcast as well as the Taking Into Account podcast. I was on season nine, episode one of the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. I’m now in my third year of my PhD at the University of Oxford. Financially, I ran into a bit of a hurdle where my tuition was unexpectedly cut and the rug taken from beneath my feet unexpectedly. However, I was able to connect with people in the university who became my allies and advocated for me and ensured that my tuition agreement would remain. And then the second thing that I have done professionally is that I have now reached a stage where I’ve done enough reflection and exercises and enough research for me to figure out that I want to be in industry at the end of my PhD. I do not want to stay in academia. And so as a result, I am now able to put my energies more into doing that, into making those connections, into getting internships, or contract positions that are more aligned with where I see myself. As a result, this has also actually helped my finances because industry positions do pay a little bit more, even if you’re working part-time.

36:39 Rutendo: And so my advice for early career PhDs, it has not fully changed since my interview, but I think with these new experiences that I’ve had, there are two things that I would say. And the first is, within your institution, do find people who are your advocates. Do find people who are your allies, especially if you’re someone who comes from an underprivileged background or from a different country and you are new to this system. Things like getting your funding pulled from you, as I have learned through my own experience, are that these things do happen to people and for others, this can mean that they do not get to finish out of no fault of their own. And so it is unfortunate that institutions do function in this way still, but it is really useful that you find the people around you who can make sure that the agreements that were made for you do stay in place.

37:29 Rutendo: And then the second thing also is that if you’re thinking about splitting your energies between part-time work and doing your project, I would advise that after at least your first year, you start to consider seriously where you want to be in terms of industry versus academia. That way you’re putting your energy into something that actually then helps you with where your next step is and it’s not just something you’re doing because it is useful for the money. I wish you all the best! My contact info, you can find me on Twitter, I am @tedoex. That is T E D O E X and all my information is available there.

Outtro

38:13 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode!

I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/.

Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/.

See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps!

The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC.

Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This First-Year PhD Student Prioritizes Investing While on Fellowship

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In this episode, Emily interviews Michele Remer, a first-year PhD student at Michigan State University, about her financial goals for graduate school. Michelle graduated in spring 2020 and worked a few different jobs during the pandemic, so she was able to generate some savings and open a Roth IRA prior to starting grad school. Thanks to a summer 2022 internship and one-time bonus on top of her ongoing fellowship, Michele is in a strong financial position at the start of graduate school. Michele shares her investing goals and values and why she’s considering buying a house hack in the spring. She also breaks down her budget and shows how she’s keeping her large, necessary expenses under about 40% of her gross income.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

S13E8 Image: This First-Year PhD Student Prioritizes Investing While on Fellowship

Teaser

00:00 Michele: And then I also was able to start my program during the summer and I did an internship in D.C. which, technically, I wouldn’t be allowed to do because you are only supposed to, you can’t work more than 10 hours a week with your fellowship at Michigan State. But because it was part of a class, I was able to overcome that requirement. So, I had money from my internship to like live on in D.C. and then I also had that like fellowship money that I could use for like saving and investing.

Introduction

00:38 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 8, and today my guest is Michele Remer, a first-year PhD student at Michigan State University. Michelle graduated in spring 2020 and worked a few different jobs during the pandemic, so she was able to generate some savings and open a Roth IRA prior to starting grad school. Thanks to a summer 2022 internship and one-time bonus on top of her ongoing fellowship, Michele is in a strong financial position at the start of graduate school. Michele shares her investing goals and values and why she’s considering buying a house hack in the spring. She also breaks down her budget and shows how she’s keeping her large, necessary expenses under about 40% of her gross income. By the way, we recorded this interview in late October 2022, and since its recording, there has been a lot of student loans news. As of November 27, 2022, the day I’m recording this, the $10k or $20k degree of cancellation that Michele and I discuss has been blocked by court challenges, which are likely to be resolved in the Supreme Court. Additionally, the administrative forbearance has been extended into summer 2023.

02:26 Emily: Speaking of the possibility of home ownership in 2023, Sam Hogan is now offering lunch-and-learn seminars on how graduate students and postdocs can purchase homes. Sam is a mortgage originator specializing in graduate students and PhDs, an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs, and my brother. He’s been a guest on this podcast numerous times, most recently Season 13 Episode 1. If you live in a city where graduate students and postdocs sometimes buy homes, please consider arranging for Sam to come to your campus for a lunch and learn on mortgages and the home-buying process. He’s put these on for a couple of groups this fall and has more booked the spring. He gives a short presentation and then answers questions about individual borrowing scenarios. Sam has done a ton to help grad students and postdocs with usual academic incomes like fellowships and summer pay gain access to mortgages so they can realize their dreams of home ownership. You can reach Sam about the possibility of coming to your campus—or with your own mortgage question—at [email protected] or 540-478-5803. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e8/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Michele Remer.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:03 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Michele Remer. She is a first-year graduate student at Michigan State University, and we are going to be talking today about kind of what her finances look like as a first-year graduate student and what her plans are for the future. So, Michele, it’s a delight to have you on. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

04:24 Michele: Of course. Thank you for having me by the way. So, as you said, I’m a first-year PhD student. I’m in the Fisheries and Wildlife Department at Michigan State. And I got my undergraduate degree from a small liberal arts college in Minnesota back in 2020. So, I’m a pandemic graduate. And then I was supposed to go into the Peace Corps but it ended up not working out due to the pandemic once again. So instead, I did some other seasonal jobs, which included AmeriCorps. I also want to preface this by saying that I have had some assistance from my parents for expenses in college and post-graduation as well.

05:03 Emily: Yeah, let’s talk about that more. So, it sounds like you had about two years between your graduation college and when you started graduate school. I’d love to learn more about those jobs that you did during that time and kind of what your finances looked like through that period.

05:17 Michele: Yeah, so my first, well I graduated 2020 and I still had my job through my university. It was a GIS job so I was able to do it remotely during the pandemic. So, I was just living at home with my parents and didn’t have any big expenses there, which was really nice. And then I got a job with AmeriCorps in a Conservation Corps out in western Utah. So, that’s where I went next. And that one was <laugh>. I was basically just breaking even for that job because it was volunteer and it was also a pretty low like stipend that we received. But I was able to get free housing, and they gave us like a free tent. I just had to provide the gear and a plane ticket. So, I think it worked out pretty well for me, especially because with the pandemic I was getting stir crazy in my house so I welcomed the opportunity to go somewhere new during that. When everyone else was kind of stuck inside. I was able to be out in the woods and <laugh> doing conservation projects.

06:26 Emily: And was it like a full year? Was it a full year that you were with AmeriCorps?

06:30 Michele: So, this was about seven months was my term. And then also for AmeriCorps, you get, they call it education award. That’s what it’s called. So, I got about $3,000 for my education that I was able to put towards my student loans.

06:47 Emily: Oh nice. That’s a good flexible usage.

Money Mindset Coming Into Grad School

06:52 Emily: Okay, so we’ve had I think one previous guest who was in AmeriCorps, if we can find the episode, it’ll be in the show notes. But I’m very interested in like your mindset I guess going into graduate school, having just had that AmeriCorps experience. Because I know that, I mean as much as graduate student stipends need to be higher, AmeriCorps is like whoa, you are really, as you said, it’s kind of a volunteer position that they basically just kind of give you housing and food money, right? So, can you talk about yeah, your mindset coming into graduate school, having had that experience with respect to your finances?

07:25 Michele: Yeah, I think it was actually really helpful for me personally because, so my undergrad, it was a residential school so like all of my food and stuff was like at a cafeteria and everything and included. And with this job, I like had to like cook dinner and everything. And so, that really taught me how to like meal prep and just like living on such a low wage, I was able to be really smart about like how I was handling my groceries and everything. And then like while we were on project, like, so we would work eight days and then we would get six days off. So for those eight days they provided all the food. So basically you were just like, didn’t have any expenses for eight days of the week and then, or eight days at a time and then six days you would have expenses, but we were able to like also have leftover food from that. So, it was this kind of like, and I also don’t really buy a lot of other things. Like I still to this day I basically just buy food and that’s my only other expense besides like housing with like occasional other like luxuries now that I have some more money. But yeah, so I think it was a challenge but it actually kind of set me up well for grad school.

Stipend at Michigan State

08:42 Emily: Yeah, very interesting. So, give us a picture of your finances when you started at Michigan State. So like, you know, did you have any assets? Did you, you already mentioned student loans, maybe you had other liabilities as well. And also what is your stipend at Michigan State?

08:57 Michele: Yeah, so my stipend first of all is $30,000. And I also got pretty lucky too because I got a $5,000 fellowship for getting accepted into the environmental science and policy program here. So, I can kind of lump that on top. And then I also was able to start my program during the summer and I did an internship in D.C. which, technically, I wouldn’t be allowed to do because you are only supposed to, you can’t work more than 10 hours a week with your fellowship at Michigan State. But because it was part of a class, I was able to overcome that requirement. So, I had money from my internship to like live on in D.C. and then I also had that like fellowship money that I could use for like saving and investing.

09:51 Emily: So, am I understanding that you were being double-paid during that time? You were receiving your fellowship and your internship pay?

09:58 Michele: Yeah, I was. The reason why like we decided to do the fellowship. Like I was talking to the administrators about this and everything and the class, because technically, the internship was part of a course. And so there was like a $2,600 tuition fee that I would’ve had to pay if I was just doing the internship. So this way the fellowship, because the fellowship also covers my tuition. So, in this way it covered my tuition and then I also was able to receive the money, the stipend money with that.

10:29 Emily: Nice. It sounds amazing. And that $5,000 that you mentioned, so your sort of baseline, standard stipend on the fellowship is $30,000 per year. Did you get that $5,000 as like a lump, it’s kind of like a bonus, like a lump sum at the start, is that right?

10:42 Michele: Yeah, it’s supposed to be a lump sum. I actually haven’t received it yet, but yeah, I think that’s just going to be like a lump sum to my account once they process it.

Finances: Assets and Liabilities

10:52 Emily: Okay. This is great. I so wish that more or all graduate students could get started with like, hey here’s some money just like for you to have for savings because you’re probably going to need this down the line. Because the stipend is really not, you know, necessarily enough to generate a decent savings rate, although, you know, we’ll get to yours and what your plans are with that. So let’s, if you don’t mind, could we share some numbers, like what assets did you have at the start of graduate school? What liabilities did you have?

11:16 Michele: Yeah, so I think I came in, so the AmeriCorps job that I had, I finished that. I did that right after college. So, I took another seasonal job where I was able to minimize my expenses a lot more and then I had another part-time job before starting. And I think the best thing that allowed me to build up savings was that I like basically reduced my housing expense. Like every time I got a new job it was either like free or it was like max $300 a month. So, I was doing really well in that area. So then I was able to, I had about $6,000 in my Roth coming in to grad school. And then I also have, let’s see, I guess for my other assets I just have like, oh I also just put in $2,000 into I-bonds too for my student loans after I graduate.

12:11 Michele: And then I also have some other savings just from, because I was saving up more money to pay off my loans as well. But now with the pandemic or the student loan forgiveness, I should be sitting in a much better place because after my education award using that and then the 10 grand that I’ll get from student loan forgiveness, I’ll be in a really good spot. And so, now that’s freed up a lot more money that I was going to put towards my loans because I’m super debt-averse, so I had saved up all this money to pay off my debt right away.

12:45 Emily: I see. I want to talk more about the student loans in just a second, but you don’t have any other debt, I would take it then, aside from the student loans?

12:52 Michele: No, no. Like I have a car, but it’s paid off. And yeah that was my only other sort of I guess liability since I don’t have a home or anything.

13:05 Emily: Yeah. Okay. So I want to point out for the listeners that we were recording this in October, 2022. So by the time this comes out, I’m hoping that people will have received the cancellation but as of the time that we’re talking, I don’t think anyone has started to receive it yet, although the application is open. So yeah, hopefully in the coming months. Did you already apply Michele?

13:24 Michele: Yeah, I did. I signed up for the email alerts. I was one of the first people, I think.

13:28 Emily: Okay, perfect. So, your cancellation amount hopefully will come through before the end of 2022 is the idea I think. Yeah. And so, and the rest of your student loans, the ones that weren’t being taken care of by these other sources, are they just going to be in deferment during graduate school? Or are you going to work on paying it down?

13:43 Michele: Yeah, I only took out subsidized loans, so they’ll be in deferment.

13:48 Emily: Okay, perfect. Yeah, for anyone listening, subsidized loans, well, if they’re in deferment you’re not going to make payments, and then if they’re subsidized the government pays the interest on your behalf so they won’t start accruing interest until when you come out of deferment, presumably after you graduate. And it’ll be pretty easy to hopefully take care of them at that point. So, that sounds awesome.

Making Investing a Priority

14:04 Emily: Okay, so you have some savings, you have started your Roth IRA, you bought some I-bonds, that’s great. So, let’s talk more about this investing situation. I understand you want to continue investing during graduate school. Why are you making that a priority?

14:18 Michele: Yeah, I think it’s a priority for me because I want to have the flexibility to take whatever jobs I want. And so, like with the AmeriCorps thing, I was able to take that job because, well for one, the student loan payments were on pause and it was kind of just like a good opportunity for that point in my life. But I also want to be able to take other opportunities that may not pay me as much because I’m really passionate about doing like environmental jobs that sometimes you don’t really get that high of a salary for. And so, I just want to make sure that I’m in a good financial spot in order to take those positions that I want.

14:58 Emily: So, is the idea that you’re going to start saving and investing for retirement now because perhaps at some later points in your life your salary won’t be really necessarily much higher than it is now? Or is it to be building up assets so that later you don’t have the pressure as much of having to save, you know, so much for retirement later on? It could be both, but I’m curious about your decision-making here.

15:21 Michele: I would say it’s both. I think, too, just everything I’ve read about personal finances, it’s time in the market over timing the market, and so I wanted to start as soon as possible so that I don’t have to worry about like starting after grad school. And like maybe if I don’t get a very high-paying job and I still like can’t contribute as much as I want to, this starting early allows me to have much more time to like accrue interest and just a bigger retirement savings account and that also would let me be more flexible in case I need to take like a career break of some kind or anything like that.

16:04 Emily: Yeah, I have to say, like so I’m 37 now, I’ve been out of graduate school for eight years about, and this is really like I can already see this playing out in my own life because I did start saving into a Roth IRA or investing when I was like 22, right out of college. And it’s really like because of some other stuff going on in like my and my husband’s financial life, like we, you know, saved diligently during graduate school. It was never, I’d never even maxed out my IRA so it wasn’t even like a large dollar amount, but for a graduate student it was a lot. And that portion of our portfolio in the time since then, like it’s a really big portion of our portfolio even though we have started since buying our house like last year we’ve really ramped up our retirement contributions because we no longer had like the down payment savings to be considering. But it’s like still amazing how much of our portfolio has just been those long time ago contributions that have had plenty of time to compound. And even though we’re saving a lot right now, and in the decades to come, like it’s still going to be a huge part of our portfolio despite being you know, dollar amount-wise not that much in contribution. So, I really commend you for getting started with this early. Is it your goal to max out every year? Like what number have you put around how much you’re going to contribute?

17:19 Michele: Yeah, I’m already maxing out every year so I put in $500 a month automatically so that I don’t have to like worry about forgetting doing it. And then I also am planning on increasing next year since they just announced that it’s going to be $6,500 instead of $6,000.

Getting Started with Investing

17:39 Emily: And many of the listeners who are, you know, considering getting started with investing or trying to get started now might be curious like how did you exactly get started? Like where did you choose to house your money and you know, what do you invest in? Obviously you’re not giving anyone advice but just like the path that you took.

17:54 Michele: Yeah, so for me I really wanted to make sure that I was going to be investing in funds that I believed in, like ethical investing for me. So, to do that I chose Fidelity as my I guess like taxable or tax advantaged account that I wanted to use. I’ve since learned that Vanguard has lower cost like target date funds if you’re interested in those. But I think Fidelity is a good one for graduate students because they have more fractional investing so you can invest with as little as like $10 a month, but for Vanguard you need to have I think a minimum of a thousand. So that’s why I chose Fidelity. And then as for the funds, I just chose ones that were offered by Fidelity because that those have lower expense ratios. And then also I chose environmental funds so there’s like, they have a US Sustainability Index Fund, International Sustainability Fund and then an Alternative Energy Fund. Plus some other ones. I got a little trigger happy when I was first starting out but yeah.

19:06 Emily: Okay. It sounds like though, are you like a hundred percent in equities with this with your IRA investments?

19:13 Michele: Yeah, so I have mostly stock funds right now since I’m still pretty young and I can afford to be more aggressive. I do have one bond fund which I’ve learned as I’ve been researching more that you want to have more bond funds in your Roth IRA cause it’s a tax managed account and so if I start a taxable brokerage account then I’ll switch to more stocks in that one.

19:38 Emily: Yes, this is asset location optimization, this is a really advanced strategy. But just in case anyone, any listener doesn’t want to put as much thought <laugh> as Michele has into this process, I mean it’s great to put thought into it but if you just want to get started and don’t have the time right now, whatever you choose, as long as it’s like broadly pretty appropriate, like you were just saying. Largely stocks, you know because you’re just starting out and you have a long timeline to retirement. What’s most important at this point is just to get started. And your exact asset allocation and everything, you can figure that out down the line. Because right now, the way that your portfolio is growing is mostly by your contributions <laugh> later on, you know, a couple decades from now, it’s mostly going to be growing because of the compounding interest. But for now, it’s really your contribution. So even if you’re not like a hundred percent the most optimized in what you’ve chosen, it’s okay. It’s really the thing is just to get started and to get that nice savings rate going like Michele has with her, you know, $500 per month current target. So, that sounds awesome. And are you also doing any other kinds of investing outside of your Roth IRA?

Investing Outside of Roth IRA

20:46 Michele: Yeah, so right now, like I said before, I have the I-bonds. So, my goal is to have about I think maybe like $4,000 in I-bonds so that hopefully the interest will accrue enough that when I graduate I can take those out and pay for the rest of my student loans. And then I’m also looking into doing a taxable brokerage account but I’m still exploring that because I’m still figuring out how the taxes would work on that.

21:17 Emily: Sure. Would that also be for long-term investing like for retirement? Or would it be maybe for like a shorter-term goal? Nearer-term goal?

21:24 Michele: I think that would be a longer-term goal just because I don’t want to have to worry about like taking it out and losing money because I didn’t like pick the right investment. So, I would rather leave it in there for retirement.

21:39 Emily: You’re actually taking a fairly similar approach to what my husband and I did when we started graduate school. We, as I said, we had our Roth IRA investments going at a certain rate. And then we also, I had student loans as well that were subsidized during graduate school. And so, initially I was just like, okay, forget about those. Like I don’t even need to think about those. Not like you’re doing, you’re planning from the beginning but at some point along the way in graduate school I realized, oh it would be nice to have money set aside to pay this off once they come out of deferment. And so, that became a goal as well for us. And then we also opened a taxable brokerage account. So, lots of different kind of layers to this.

Union Efforts to Obtain 403(b)

22:13 Emily: Okay. Is there anything else you want to share about your investments?

22:17 Michele: I guess I also want to, I’m part of the union here on campus now. I’m like our department representative, and one thing that I want to work with them on is getting a 403(b) account for grad students at Michigan State. Because I know that there are some other schools, a lot of schools don’t have them for grad students, but there are schools that do and I think that that would be something that would be really beneficial, not only for the grad students but also for the university to attract more people to come there. So, I think that that’s something that we could work on together to hopefully achieve <laugh>.

22:56 Emily: Yeah, that would be really exciting. I definitely want to hear an update from you about that. I mean I hope you’re successful certainly, but even if you’re not, I would love to know why like what their reasons are for, you know, not including graduate students. Because as you said, in very few places graduate students are included, and I don’t really know why they would bother like excluding them really.

23:16 Michele: Yeah, I could see maybe like, I know that the ones I’ve been looking at, they don’t provide a match. But I think they already have like a 403(b) set up for like employees. So, I think just like allowing grad students to open an account even if you don’t do a match, I think it would still, I think that would be pretty easy to do, but I don’t know. I haven’t looked into it super far yet.

23:38 Emily: A match would be, I would be shocked if I ever <laugh> Yeah. If I ever saw a match for a graduate student. Even postdocs oftentimes don’t get matches. Some of them do, especially if they’re like state employees. But yeah just the first step of like, because when I read these like plans and so forth, because I often do this with schools that I give seminars at. I’ll go into and just do a little check and see if students might have the opportunity to contribute to a 403(b). And most of them say explicitly students cannot contribute or you have to have at least a 50% appointment and they, you know, put all the students at 0.49% appointments. They have these kinds of like workarounds to specifically exclude graduate students. But why? I don’t know, is it just an administrative burden for them? I really don’t know why because I’m sure there wouldn’t be that many graduate students who would, you know, elect to use it even if they had the option. Although even just, I mean psychologically, just knowing that you had the option would actually help, I think. Students start thinking about, oh is retirement something I should be preparing for in this stage of my life? So, I love this idea, and I really want to hear an update about it.

24:41 Michele: Yeah, I think that would also maybe help like with negotiations for like increasing stipends as well.

24:50 Emily: Alright. Okay, great. To be followed up on.

Commercial

24:55 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! I’m hard at work behind the scenes updating my suite of tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022. These pre-recorded educational workshops explain how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. For the 2022 tax season starting in January 2023, I’m offering three versions of this workshop, one each for U.S. citizen/resident graduate students, U.S. citizen/resident postdocs, and non-resident graduate students and postdocs. That third workshop is brand-new this year, and I’m very excited about it. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the end users, graduate students and postdocs, can access them for free. Please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, etc. to request that they sponsor one of my tax preparation workshops for you and your peers. I’d love to receive a warm introduction to a potential sponsor this month so we can hit the ground running in January serving those early bird filers. You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Now back to our interview.

Budget Breakdown

26:36 Emily: Okay, so we’ve talked about your investing goals. How are you formulating your budget to support those goals and to support all the other things you want to be doing in your life right now?

26:47 Michele: Yeah, so actually, the reason why I want to do a budget breakdown is because I’m really bad at actually doing a budget, so this helped me to track my spending. So, right now, I guess like my fixed costs, so my rent, I’m living with two roommates. So I have, my portion of the rent is $375 a month. And then with like utilities they’re kind of high here so I’d say that brings me to like between like $450 to $500 for my portion total, sorry, when I add rent and utilities <laugh>.

27:27 Emily: Just to interrupt, because that is such a low amount of rent, I have not heard a rent amount that low in a long time. Do you have your own bedroom or are you sharing a bedroom?

27:35 Michele: No, I have my own room and then it’s actually like a really nice setup because it’s a house, and so we still have like our laundry and like a dishwasher and like a yard. So yeah, when I found this place I was like, this is great. <Laugh>.

27:50 Emily: Is that through a private landlord?

27:52 Michele: Yeah.

27:53 Emily: Okay. Yeah, I’m always curious in different cities about like, where can you get the best deal? Is it going to be a corporate place, is it going to be, you know, a mom-and-pop landlord? So yeah, that’s great. Did you find this house? Or did these roommates exist and you found the room?

28:06 Michele: So, my roommates are both also in, not my department but a similar department to me. So, they had sent out like an e-mail on the listserv, and so I reached out to them through that.

Food and Furniture

 28:18 Emily: Amazing. Love it. Okay. What’s your next expense?

28:22 Michele: Yeah, so I guess my next biggest expense would be my food which I kind of just lumped together, like going out to eat and groceries. So, I guess my first month it was $450 and then my second month was $385, so I guess roughly $410 right now. And then also with my moving, I didn’t bring any furniture with me so I actually got pretty good deals on all of them. So my total for that was $170.

29:01 Emily: You spent $170 in total on furniture? Was it just like a mattress or like what?

29:07 Michele: No, I got like someone was selling their bed at a rummage sale, so I got that pretty cheap. And then I got a desk, a chair, and two dressers. Yeah, Facebook Marketplace.

Transportation

29:21 Emily: I’m just delighted by this great job. <Laugh> Yeah, Facebook Marketplace. Okay, great. Yeah, have you incurred any other expenses? I think you said earlier you basically only buy like housing and food, so what else is on your list?

29:35 Michele: <Laugh> and then I guess like transportation. So, my gas money and then I’m flying home for the holidays and I’m also going to be taking the train home so I have to like buy those tickets. So, for this month it was like $282 and then last month it was like $110 for gas. And then I guess too, one other thing I should mention is I like bike to the university so that I don’t have to buy the parking pass and I can just park for free at my house when I go to the store and all that stuff, so.

30:19 Emily: So, I think we’ve covered the big three, right? Housing, food and transportation. You mentioned that you own your car outright, so you know, you’ll pay insurance on that but not a whole lot in terms of fixed costs. But even just with those three, I think you’re still under a thousand dollars a month probably. Which is quite reasonable given your gross salary, let’s just say it’s $30,000 per year. $2,500 per month. So, keeping your like larger necessary expenses under 40% of that is great. You’re doing very well. What are you doing with the rest of it? Like are you choosing to spend discretion early? Or is this just going to go into investments and savings?

Discretionary Funds

31:00 Michele: I’m still trying to figure that out. I guess I also have had like different like fees come up just from like, so I’m trying to figure how to incorporate that into my budget from like the TSO and different organizations on campus. And then I’ve just like since moving, I’ve been like finding little things that I like want to get. Like I just got some new headphones and needed to replace like my watch band and everything. So, I still don’t know how to budget the rest of my money just because I don’t like have a good grasp on it yet, but I’m hoping that I could spend like $200 a month, like discretionary and then just like either invest or save the rest of it.

31:51 Emily: Yeah. Given how low you’re keeping your fixed expenses, especially your housing and this like very decent fellowship, yeah it seems like you have a lot of choice over what you can do with that excess cash flow, so that’s great. I don’t, you know, many graduate students are not in such a fortunate position. That sounds awesome. Does this fellowship last the entire time you’re in graduate school? Or is your stipend expected to like drop at some point?

32:14 Michele: So, for this fellowship, it covers the first and the fifth year. But then like you’re supposed to work with your department to find funding for the middle three years. So, I’m supposed to always have like, at least in my offer letter it said I’m always supposed to have like the base rate somehow.

32:31 Emily: Which is 30,000 per year.

32:33 Michele: Yeah.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

38:34 Emily: Okay, so let’s finish up, Michele, with the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we have touched on already in the episode or could be something completely new.

38:49 Michele: Yeah, I think my best financial advice would be to automate everything as much as possible so that you don’t miss payments or if you are investing you don’t miss your investment goals. I know most credit cards you can set up an automatic payment so that you don’t miss that at all and then you can also link your accounts together so that you can like send money from your checking account to your savings account automatically so that you don’t miss anything or spend the money that you wanted to save. And I think this also can help with fixing like if you have any problems with like overspending or just like if you get super busy in your PhD like you probably are, then you don’t have to worry about like saving your money.

39:34 Emily: I love that advice. I totally concur. It took me some time, I think, to trust myself with automation, but I’m really glad that I got there. Was there anything that you wanted to add about your bank that you wanted to say?

39:47 Michele: Yeah, I did. So, I highly recommend reading I Will Teach You to Be Rich by Ramit Sethi. I think that’s how you say his last name. Because he gives a lot of recommendations for personal finance in general but for banking. So, like I just opened up the checking account that he recommended, which is called the I think it’s the Schwab High Yield Checking account and you get a brokerage account with that, but you don’t have to invest in it if you don’t have the money or if you don’t want to invest with them. But that checking account gives you 0.4% interest, which is like awesome. And then you also get ATM reimbursement everywhere and you also, I don’t think there’s like overdraft fees. So yeah, it’s just a great account. And then also for savings accounts, he recommends like I open a Capital One 360, and there’s also like an Ally Bank account that you can get like over 2% interest right now. Yeah, because I was looking into the Aspiration account because of their, they don’t lend to fossil fuel companies, but the downside of that is I heard a lot of people talking about how they like couldn’t get their money out and so that kind of scared me a little bit, but I might look into them again once they’re more established because they’re a pretty new bank.

41:06 Emily: Yeah. That’s good to hear. And thank you so much for the recommendation of the book, I Will Teach You to Be Rich. There’s actually a 10th anniversary edition that came out, I want to say within the last year or two. So, recommendations like banks, like I’m sure those have all been updated in the new edition, so if you’re looking for that kind of recommendation, you should definitely get the new edition and not the original edition from like 10 plus years ago. Or I would imagine you can just go to his website, which is probably, I Will Teach You to Be Rich or Ramit Sethi or something like that. And he’ll have those kinds of recommendations, but that’s awesome. And yeah, I think, I read that book again recently after the new edition came out and it’s great. It’s very, very direct and actionable and he’s so confident in what he tries to teach you. So like, it’s really compelling, it’s a compelling book. And a previous podcast guest mentioned that reading that book was like her sort of catalyst for like starting to get her personal finances under control. We’ll link that episode as well in the show notes. But I think it had to do with banking. I think the first thing she did was change her bank and felt really like great about that decision and like just sort of snowballed that energy like going forward. So, that’s awesome. Thanks for the recommendation.

42:10 Michele: Yeah, no problem. Yeah, the banking was really helpful, too. Just using like an online bank that doesn’t have as many like brick and mortar locations, they save a lot of money and give it back to you. So, that was a really helpful tip from him.

42:21 Emily: Totally. I started using an online or an internet-only bank I think about a year after I graduated from college when I knew like I’m going to move for grad school and then I’m probably going to move again. And then maybe, you know, I just saw a lot of moves like in my future and didn’t want to be sort of tethered to like regional, you know, availability of brick and mortar banks. So, all great suggestions. Michele, it’s been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for volunteering to be on the podcast!

42:45 Michele: Of course. Thank you for having me!

Outtro

42:51 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

From Zero Funding to Graduating Student Loan Debt-Free

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. José Riera, who recently finished his PhD in education from Washington State University. José’s offer of admission to WSU did not include any funding, so he initially accepted some student loans and expected to accumulate a hundred thousand dollars of debt before graduation. However, through his incredible resourcefulness, José secured multiple types of funding throughout his three-year degree that paid his education and living expenses and allowed him to repay the student loans he initially took out. Jose teaches us the tactics that he used to land two assistantships, an adjunct teaching position, and 18 scholarships. Don’t miss José’s incredibly inspiring story of overcoming these and other obstacles!

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Image for S13E6: From Zero Funding to Graduating Student Loan Debt-Free

Teaser

00:00 José: I would also say that you also want to make sure that you craft a very good message so that when people meet you, they not only remember who you are, but they want to know what you’re passionate about and how you’re helping yourself and others in that. Because then they make the connection and say, “Oh, wait a second.” So, they immediately connect as opposed to saying, “Well, he’s just, or José’s just a student in need.” You want to make sure that they have some memorable talk points about what it is that you’re pursuing, your research, your career focus, and the communities that you want to help out.

Introduction

00:42 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 6, and today my guest is Dr. José Riera, who recently finished his PhD in education from Washington State University. José’s offer of admission to WSU did not include any funding, so he initially accepted some student loans and expected to accumulate a hundred thousand dollars of debt before graduation. However, through his incredible resourcefulness, José secured multiple types of funding throughout his three-year degree that paid his education and living expenses and allowed him to repay the student loans he initially took out. Jose teaches us the tactics that he used to land two assistantships, an adjunct teaching position, and 18 scholarships. Don’t miss José’s incredibly inspiring story of overcoming these and other obstacles! Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. José Riera.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:09 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, José Riera. He recently finished his PhD in education from Washington State University, so he has a different kind of funding path than what we normally hear on the podcast. And I’m really excited for him to share for anybody else who’s pursuing a similar degree or has similar funding challenges at the beginning of their PhD. So, José, I’m really delighted that you are joining us here. Will you please tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself?

02:33 José: Well, thank you for hosting me today, Emily. I’m very happy to be here and help you and your mission to support many worthy students obtain funding and guidance to survive what can be a very challenging process. And I consider myself blessed to have met you at the beginning of this journey. So, I was able to pave the way thanks to your support and complete really an incredible journey in a three-year time span, which is amazing. So, just a little bit about me besides the fact, like you mentioned, I just completed my PhD in education here at Washington State University. I’m in the eastern part of Washington, in the town of Pullman. Before that, my background was mostly in business administration. I did a lot of work in inner-city communities throughout the United States, serving mostly Latino and African American neighborhoods.

03:28 José: I have an undergraduate degree in finance from Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. And then I have a Master’s in Business Administration from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. So, my background prior to coming to WSU had been mostly a business administration perspective handling financial and retail aspects of different operations. And I did that throughout the United States. I think through some health challenges and just some personal reflections, I pivoted away into the area of education where I felt the focus was going to be mostly on helping others. And as I entered the second stage of my life working mostly towards was I a good steward of the resources that I was born with? And that led me, among other places, to Washington State University, where, like you mentioned, I just completed my PhD.

Funding the MBA

04:28 Emily: So fascinating. So, this was your second go-round with graduate school, actually. Tell me about how you funded the MBA.

04:37 José: Well, the MBA, it was in the University of Pennsylvania. My parents helped significantly with my MBA, and then I had also won a significant scholarship funding from the University of Pennsylvania, just based on my ethnic background that provided some support. So, I was able to cover that. That was only a two-year program. And I was in a little bit of better financial shape back then than I was coming into my PhD.

05:08 Emily: Okay. So, you didn’t take out student loans, for example, for that initial degree?

05:12 José: No, I did not.

Finances Right Before Starting Graduate School

05:13 Emily: So, tell me about your finances right before coming into graduate school. You just said you were in a different situation, so what was the situation?

05:19 José: Well, the biggest challenge for me was I had, you know, I spent several years in a hospital. And I was recovering from an accident, and that recovery process really wiped out any sort of financial support that I had. I had child support that I was accruing, unable to pay for because I had no income. And then I had just a sheer amount of health-related expenses I kept accumulating. So, that was my backdrop as I looked to complete my rehab and then get my life back in order and decide to pursue something back in education that would give me additional tools and a different perspective on my life is really the genesis of how I connected with you and how I connected with Washington State University, among other schools.

06:19 Emily: Okay. So, we have a big interruption that you just went through in your financial life. Some debts that you had accrued. So, I’m guessing that you did not want to accrue any further debt during your graduate degree. Can you tell me about how PhDs in education are typically funded?

Funding for PhDs in Education

06:41 José: Yes, very good. Well, at least at Washington State University, the program is very, very international. And a lot of the students, especially from Saudi Arabia, from China, they’re actually funded by their own host governments. So, I entered into what’s a fairly small program. My class was only about 13 students. I think I was the only citizen in the entire group. So, that just gives you a sense of the fact that a lot of them received independent funding, and the program itself wasn’t really geared towards providing financial support just because it’s seen somewhat of a, for lack of a better word, a cash cow for Washington State University. Again, you’re having a lot of students that are not only paying out-of-state tuition, but a lot of them are paying even a higher out-of-country tuition. So, it’s a big operation for them. I did not have any sort of support coming into the program.

07:46 Emily: Yeah. So, tell me about when you, like received your offer of admission to Washington State. It sounded like you didn’t receive funding along with that, Is that correct?

07:56 José: That is correct, yes. And they were very clear from the get-go saying we’d love to welcome you into our environment, but we don’t have the financial package or wherewithal to be able to provide any sort of support into your program. So, you’re going to have to find your own way of supporting your education.

Why Washington State University?

08:17 Emily: And was that your only offered admission? Were you looking at other offers of admission at the same time? And if so, how did those funding packages look?

08:26 José: Yeah, so that’s actually a very good question. I was actually based in California, and I had been looking, and in the process of applying for Berkeley as well as University of California Davis, these schools had in-state tuition that was more affordable, obviously. But the big decision for me, there were two main factors. The first one was the fact that these schools, since I didn’t come from a background in education, in both of these universities, and I won’t even tell you about Stanford, because Stanford would’ve been a nine-year program. But these universities would have required me to pursue some master-level educational courses before being allowed to enter fully into a doctoral-level curriculum. And Washington state was not that way.

09:25 José: Washington said, “Look, we realize that you’re not from an educational background, but you have a significantly interesting, eclectic, shall we say, background. You have very strong academic credentials from your undergraduate and graduate school. We will let you start taking in doctoral level courses.” Which helped me at least reduce my academic yearly path by at least two years compared to UC Davis and UC Berkeley. So, again, it was a trade-off in that regard. And then secondly, I had other considerations. My daughter was a student at WSU, and that was a big decision for me to actually come here to make up for the years that I was unable to be in her life due to health issues and my hospital recovery.

Plan for Funding the PhD

10:23 Emily: What a beautiful opportunity. I’m so glad that lined up for you so well. Okay, but, you’re coming in with no funding. So, what was your I guess, outlook at that time? Like, what was the plan before you actually arrived on campus? What was your plan for funding the PhD?

10:41 José: Well, listen, I’m very much of a self-starter. So, at the very least, I said, “This is an opportunity that I am giving to improve my lot where I was, where I was just essentially sinking in debt and not feeling that I had much traction.” Entering into this opportunity that Washington State afforded me allowed me to make a step in the right direction. And, you know, even if I had not had any other sort of funding, because of my financial condition, I was given a fairly generous FAFSA package. You know, so I could have really loaded up on student debt to the degree that I could, upwards of $40,000 each semester. And initially, the first year, as you might imagine, I was paying out-of-state tuition, which was two-and-a-half, sometimes three times as expensive as in-state.

11:40 José: So, I started that route, especially moving in. But I had knocked on a lot of doors. Especially, I had looked at a different program. At one point I wasn’t sure if they would take me in the School of Education, so I applied for a history program, made good connections there, and the head of that school said, “Look, I know you’re not a student at the College of Arts and Sciences where the program is located, but we have this opportunity here that we’re not sure yet, but it might be able to pay for your tuition.” So, again, just knocking on different doors, calling for informational meetings. That helped me. I had a conversation with Dr. Carmen Lugo, who was the director of the school. And then when the opportunity came up, I did the interviews.

12:30 José: They liked me because you know, it was managing the language labs. I speak different languages. So that helped, and I got that opportunity, and, you know, I was even willing to do it without the tuition reimbursement. And then she pulled through, and then I had tuition covered for that. So, I was making that relationship from afar, but since I got here, I think it also helped the fact that I moved to Washington like three months before school started. So, that also meant that I could be trained to run the laboratory. And then that gave me an edge over perhaps other students that were remote when I was already local and chomping at the bit.

Being Proactive About Financial Needs and Knocking on Doors

13:16 Emily: I think this is a great lesson here for any prospective or current graduate students they can pull out. Now, obviously, you were a non-traditional student, and you had all these advantages from your past career and your past education that, you know, might or might not exist in other people who are listening. But, what you did and what they could do is that you were really proactive about two things. One, letting people know about your financial needs or concerns. Hey, I really want to get tuition covered if I can, would love to receive a stipend. I don’t know if those exactly were the conversations you were having, but I need some funding. Is there any way that I can get that? And as you said, just really knocking on a lot of doors, talking to a lot of different people about what you can offer them, and what you would need from them. And that ended up working out, as you said, with this, is it fair to say it was an assistantship, or like what kind of position?

14:06 José: It was an assistantship. Definitely a graduate assistantship. And to your point, it wasn’t the sign to be offered to graduate students outside of that home school. But because of some, you know, the fact that I was persistent. I was there, they knew me already, just as, you know, just in person having shown up, shaken hands, and done a lot of personal bonding, I was top of mind. And, I think to your point also, the age, being non-traditional. I think there’s an assumption of a certain level of maybe gravitas or just seriousness about the purpose of saying, you know, he’s not going to be, you know, calling in sick much. In fact, never did. So, you know, I think that gave me an edge, but that wasn’t the only pump that I was priming.

15:00 José: I made it a point to be known specifically by the graduate school, precisely by, you know, saying, “Look, this is where I am. Where can I access opportunities? You know, where can I access support?” Whether it’s for clothing for an interview, food security, help with financial aid, help with navigating so many expenses, maybe getting some housing support, energy conservation. So, a lot of things I checked just to, you know, as they say, you know, stretch a buck and make it scream, right? And really, you know, getting people to know who I was, what I needed, and what I was pursuing, especially as far as what my interests were. I always made sure that, you know, I had somebody that I could call on afterwards or would call me.

New Opportunities During COVID

15:52 José: And that actually came into place once the COVID pandemic initially happened, because the whole campus was sent home. And now I was residing on campus, but then my job meant that I, you know, it was a student-facing position, and since there were no students, there was no income. Hence, that position was eliminated during COVID. And that also meant that I had to pivot quickly because it was a program that I thought would carry me throughout my years here. And then there was no funding after the first year. So, having seeded the grounds with other people, I was able to, through the graduate school, find out that there was an opportunity at the Emeritus Society, which is the professors at Washington State University who have retired there have a social group, a support group, and where they come together and they had a position that was vacant to handle their events.

17:01 José: And it was a lot of challenges because it was an older demographic. And this was my second year, so the entire 2021 of the pandemic. So, everything was done remotely, and getting some of these people working on Zoom for the first time in their lives was a work in progress. But they were just such a wonderful experience, and always, and to this day still follow up on what I’m doing. So, I felt very much that it was stressful in the sense that, you know, there was a moment there between March and April of 2020 that I just said, you know, what do I do now? And then, you know, I was able to get that opportunity. And again, because of the fact that I was known on campus and known inside of my department, I had one of my professors who gave me an internship for that summer. And then I transitioned into this assistantship for my second year.

18:05 Emily: Love it. So, now we’ve seen this strategy work for you two times for your first year, and then for your second and third year, it sounded like?

18:11 José: Well, it was for my second year. So, it’s an interesting, again, interesting turn of events because of the fact that I am proactive, like you mentioned, as far as getting myself known and finding out different resources. So, for my third year, I had already accumulated a fair amount of scholarships that I had applied for and won. So, you know, about 18 different support awards from institutions that support recovered individuals like myself that overcame health conditions, to just competitive scholarships, to then even Washington State Employees’ Credit Union, which is my credit union. They have a program that they support their own members. It’s a competitive one, but it’s also one that I applied and won for consecutive years. So, I had a little bit accumulated for there.

19:11 José: And then because of, again, having talked to different people, there was a faculty position that opened up at the College of Business. Mind you, my college is a college of education, okay? But at the College of Business, they had a need to teach finance and entrepreneurship. And one of the people that I had known, one of the professors called me up and said, you know, “Is it okay if I recommend you for this adjunct, you know, position that’s there? I I think you have a rich business administration background and you can make it happen.” And I didn’t need to think twice about it when they <laugh> when they interviewed me, because it’s very unusual that you would find a graduate student also operating at a faculty level, right? That you could be, I was a student working on my dissertation, but I was also teaching and developing something for my profile.

20:06 José: So, I ended up my last year, I could have stayed a second year with the Emeritus Association, but given the fact that I was given such a great opportunity, they even welcomed the fact that, “Hey, you should pursue that.” And then I ended up teaching for two semesters in the business school. That brought in funding, and then I had enough of the scholarship that would pay for my tuition. So, I was able to potentially coast the rest of the way financially. It wasn’t easy, but it was done.

Commercial

20:42 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD Workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success! Now back to the interview.

High Success Rate with Scholarships

21:48 Emily: I want to pull three elements out from what you just said because I do not want the listeners to miss this. So, one, we talked earlier about you being proactive and knocking on many doors and talking with many people and letting them know what you can do for them and what you need from them. But what you said in there, and what you know, came into play again when the pandemic started, is that you developed these connections before you needed them urgently, right? You said you moved to campus a few months ahead of the other students so that you were a known face and a known entity by the time, Oh, this position is opening up, like that seems like it would be a good fit. They already knew you before the pandemic started. All that work that you had done before, continued to do, when that pivot needed to happen, you had already laid the groundwork and you had the resources in place. So, it’s almost like analogous to having an emergency fund. Like doing this networking for your career before you urgently need it is similar to keeping a cash emergency fund in your finances before you encounter an emergency that you would draw on that for. So, that’s point number one. Point number two, you said you won 18 scholarships. How many did you apply for <laugh>, do you know, to get those 18?

22:58 José: Well, I have a pretty good success rate on those. And again, I mean, you know how time is of the essence when you are a graduate student. So, I had to screen a lot of them and then make sure that, at least on paper, I had an above-average chance, you know. Just based whether, I didn’t apply for everything that was out there. Some of those came as direct referrals from the graduates school here at the WSU. So, they were internal competitions that you applied for, especially the teaching awards. So, meaning that there were scholarships available for students who were looking to expand pedagogy and become better classroom teachers. So, a lot of those came in through the internal graduate school at Washington State University.

23:50 José: But the external ones, I would say that, I just don’t want to create the wrong expectation. I probably ended up applying to about 25. So, I got to most of them because I would do the pre-screening, and I didn’t want to be wasting a lot of time either writing big essays for small dollars. So, there was also, my sweet spot was maybe focusing on ones that were between $2,500 and $5,000, because that made it meaningful. A lot of those, the money can only be used for school-related expenses. So, it’s not like you can take it out and, you know, have a party. So, that’s why you can see that that served as my nest for my last year, where even though the faculty position didn’t pay for tuition, I had enough money accumulated that did that. And then I just had to worry about my day-to-day expenses, which I did just based on the income that I received, whether assistantship or teaching. And I also did a little bit of thrift shopping on the side just to kind of like buy cheap and try to sell. That’s where the spending money came from.

25:02 Emily: Well, I’m so happy to hear that you were so strategic about those scholarship selections and the applications, and I feel like we could do an entire other interview about that strategy. Because it obviously worked out so well for you and you were, you know, judicious about how you used your time. And I just love everything you mentioned. So, that was a value-packed, you know, response there that I didn’t want the listeners to miss. And then the third point that I wanted to pull out was that you, you know, you’ve had now from what you described, two assistantships or the faculty position, non-assistantship. One assistantship, another faculty position that were not within your own school of education. And I just don’t want the listeners to have like a limiting belief around who on campus might or might not be able and willing to hire them based on these bureaucratic boundaries that may exist. So, I love your example of how you were able to, you know, cross those boundaries again because of the work you did earlier, getting known by all these people. So, I just wanted listeners to have that as well.

Learning About Financial Resources Early On

25:58 Emily: Is there anything else that you want to add about, you know, how you managed financially during the PhD? We’ve already gotten a few different details, but anything more?

26:10 José: Well, I think one of the more important things, which actually, you know, I met you, or started following your advice even before I had gotten accepted to graduate school. So, I think the importance of obtaining information so that you know what’s realistic, what’s out there, you know, what services, you know, at least populating yourself with enough information with the resources that you provide. When I was having discussions with the graduate school, and I would encourage everybody to just, regardless of where they go, I think their first stop should be the graduate school, just because they have a direct connection with you. They know where different opportunities are. They can show you, as they did, “Look, you know, there’s this whole list of information that if you fill out just a standard application, we’re going to put you in the lot to win or be eligible for some of these awards.”

27:14 José: So, it’s something that you just need to show up and do it, you know? And it’s there. So, I can’t imagine that being the process in every single school, but they’re there. They’re there for you. So, the fact that they, you know, I was able to go there and I had enough information based on your podcast, based on your personal opinions, that I could go and say, “Look, you know, this is what I need and I’ve already done my, you know, four-year span. These are kind of like the expenses that I’m seeing, you know, can I get some support here? Can I get some support there?” And even if they say no, it’s still you’re learning through this process and you know where the other resources are. And I find people want to help you.

27:56 José: They want to help you if you’re willing to put in the effort. And, you know, so I would just encourage people to do that. Even with your research, when you’re at WSU, the fact that I was in the multidisciplinary research allowed me to qualify to other experiences including summer internships. I did a summer internship with a first-gen-focused institution in Nashville. And that wasn’t necessarily initially my focus, because my focus was mostly on using technology to help individuals with disabilities. But I pivoted into first-gens because of that experience. And that gave me not only contacts in that industry, but also an opportunity of being able to do field research that then became the basis of my doctoral dissertation here at Washington State.

28:47 Emily: So amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that message. It actually is a reflection of something I heard back in the interview I did specifically for international students. A very similar message to them, which was get to know your designated school official, like we were talking about earlier, before you run into a financial crisis that of course, international students have many more restrictions on how they can earn money and whether they can take out student loans and all these issues. But get to know the people who know the resources, have access to the resources in advance, so that when, you know, if you see a crisis approaching or like you, your income source dried up, then you know who you can go to. They already aware of you. Maybe they’ve been keeping an eye out for opportunities for you. So, incredible message.

Completing the PhD Without Taking on Student Debt

29:28 Emily: I understand that you ultimately were able to complete your PhD without taking on any student debt from all of the, you know, avenues of funding that we talked about. Can you tell me about what that means to you to have been able to accomplish that?

29:44 José: Well, it was you know, I’m still a little bit giggly about that because it wasn’t the case. I mean, when I first came here, and mind you, I landed in Pullman, Washington. I actually drove here in April of 2019. And I was perfectly, not perfectly I should say that, but at least I was resigned that this might put me in a hole for at least a hundred thousand dollars. Just in the way that I had nothing written down. I had nothing committed. You know, and it was, it was very humbling saying, “Okay, I’m going to start dipping into these FAFSA funds because I just don’t have any income. And I did that for the first six weeks, and then, you know, things started coming along and then I was able to contain that initial debt. I never really added to it, carried it and then, you know, then got some scholarship funding that allowed me not only to start paying down on it, but then eventually, you know, with my stipend, being able to wipe it clean.

30:53 José: And I know there’s some who say, “Oh, if you had left it there, you probably would’ve eliminated now with some of the Washington DC funding.” But it’s okay. I mean, I think now I don’t have it. I feel much stronger. My credit score is probably almost 70 basis points higher than when I began the program. Precise, because I was not only able to keep those expenses down, but also pay down on expenses or debt that I carried from my past. And again, I’m just very grateful to you and some of the people that you’ve introduced me through your program and your podcast, including your brother as far as support that I receive to make sure that I’m lining myself up for eventual homeownership opportunities, now that I’m facing a future where I have finally some steady income, a new career, and just life outside of campus.

31:53 Emily: I’m so happy to hear that. I’m so pleased. You’re giving me a lot of credit here. But I think it was a lot. I mean, we had one conversation, but it’s a lot of the podcasts and other things that I’ve put out there. So, I’m so pleased that you’ve been using that, and I wasn’t even necessarily aware of that the whole time. One note, this is not necessarily advice for you, but for anybody who is listening at this point. This is going to come out in fall 2022. If you paid down federal student loan debt during the pandemic, which it sounds like you did, José, you can actually request a refund from your loan servicer up to the 10 or $20,000 of forgiveness that we are expecting to come through this fall. And so, if you want to do that, you could actually get that refund and then get the debt wiped away. So whatever that amount is, maybe it’s $10,000, you could actually have that in your pocket if you wanted to go ahead and do that. Not necessarily saying you have to, because I know there’s a lot of pleasure you receive from, you know, having not only paid off that student loan debt that you took at the beginning, but it sounds like you also paid down some of your other debt, which is incredible. But I just want the listeners to know that opportunity is there if they did pay off debt during the pandemic.

32:59 José: Well, thank you. I’ll be paying close attention to that upcoming podcast for sure. That may be, it’ll be an early celebration of Christmas.

Next Steps in Career and in Finances

33:08 Emily: Yeah, that sounds great. Okay. Second to last question here. What is next for you in your career and in your finances?

33:15 José: Well, I think as I indicated earlier, a lot of my journey, especially in these past few years where I’ve had to rely upon, because of the fact that I was not financially independent, I had to rely upon other people for support and show them, right? That I was worthy of the trust, and in some cases, that I was worthy of the positions that they had given me. I have an obligation now to pass forward some of those benefits that I received. And I say that because then I was originally catering or focusing in on getting into classrooms. And my focus was to go into kind of like the greater Appalachian region of the United States, which there’s a lot of financial need, there’s a lot of mentoring need for, you know, just really wonderful individuals who just don’t have the support at home and guidance to be able to know what college is all about.

34:19 José: And then they’re at risk, even if they get accepted, of not fitting in and then dropping out. So, I can make an impact in their lives. So, I was heading in that direction. And then I got a call from a non-profit that I worked with in the past that wanted me to see if I could stay behind in Washington State to help the lower-income agricultural communities in Washington State. There’s a lot of mostly Hispanic and Native American communities in the greater Yakima Valley. That allows me an opportunity of combining both my educational focus as well as my business administration to help those communities in terms of obtaining funding for school, of obtaining funding to start off their own businesses, of navigating some of their citizenship limitations. And it also allows me to stay close to, I have two daughters, one actually who was Natalia, my oldest who graduated here, I was able to graduate simultaneously with her, so that that was an extra benefit of coming to Washington State.

35:27 José: And in fact, we both walked together in May. She’s now living in Seattle. I have my youngest that lives at home with her mom in Vancouver. So, me being able to stay here in Washington State a couple of years and working where there’s a need for not only role models, but hard skills in financial and agricultural businesses. I can make an impact in a lot of financial ways and also personally meaningful ways, and still maintain contact with the important people in my life.

36:02 Emily: I’m so pleased. That’s so wonderful. I’m so glad you got that opportunity to stay there in Washington and do that mission-driven work. So happy!

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

36:11 Emily: Okay, last question for you. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we have already touched on in this interview, or it could be something completely new.

36:22 José: Well, I think again, you and I both share the perspective of knowing what it’s like to be in the hole, shall we say. And I think that that might be more meaningful, you know, to focus in on that because it’s such a threatening time and humbling time you know. Because you can think everything you want about your accomplishments and what you’re doing, but you’re still faced with the reality of how do you make ends meet and how do you survive. So, I think still for those of you who are looking, contemplating this journey, or in the middle of this journey, I think some of the things that you talked about before. Don’t be putting any sort of unnecessary limitations of your ability of being able to prosper. And don’t look at it as like I don’t want to get known around as somebody who’s in need.

37:20 José: Or you know, I don’t want to necessarily show the fact that I’m, you know, in financial need. I don’t think people will judge you for that. I think if anything, they see you more as somebody that is very responsible, is not letting the worst-case scenario happen. You’re trying to be proactive about it, and people will support you. I’m telling you, I mean, in my setting here, it’s seen as like, ‘Wow, you’re hungry, and you want to tackle this on and not let that get out of hand for different reasons.” People will find a way of helping you, but you’ve got to show up and you’ve got to do the work. They’re not going to give you a handout, because that’s just not, well, that’s just not necessarily the type of image that you want to command.

38:06 José: So, I will go back to what you were alluding to. Just knock on different doors. Don’t be afraid when they say no, it’s not a rejection necessarily. It’s just more of an issue of prioritization and saying, well, maybe it’s not the door that you need to do, but at least you leave a good presence so that in the future if something were to come up, they do call you. And I’ve seen that happen in my case, right? So, I would also say that you also want to make sure that you craft a very good message so that when people meet you, they not only remember who you are, but they want to know what you’re passionate about and how you’re helping yourself and others in that. Because then they make the connection and say, “Oh, wait a second, Emily likes to promote advance in higher education and she’s got this network. We just got this grant. Let’s call her.” So you’re ready, they immediately connect as opposed to saying, “Well, he’s just, or José’s just a student in need.” You want to make sure that they have some memorable talk points about what it is that you’re pursuing, your research, your career focus, the communities that you want to help out with.

39:20 Emily: That’s such a perfect encapsulation of like the main messages that we’ve gotten through this interview. I’m so happy to hear that like last articulation. And to put it kind of with some of my own words there, you demonstrated and what you’re encouraging other people to demonstrate, is resourcefulness. And the university does have a lot of resources, <laugh>, and they may be, you know, in different little pockets and they may be unknown. And you have to go around and talk with people and network and, as you said, let them know what you can do for them and what you bring to the table. I noticed this pattern also when I’ve spoken about negotiation of graduate student stipends. And like, in a way, what you were doing was negotiation, except they didn’t even know that they were making you an offer yet, right?

40:00 Emily: Like you were just out there trying to get those offers. What I noticed when I talk with graduate students about negotiation is that they usually do open up very vulnerably about their finances. This is the need. Hey, this is the cost of living going on. I really don’t think that this offer was sufficient to meet this cost of living. And also in some cases, oh, look what I’m bringing to the table. Okay, I’m bringing in a fellowship, I’m bringing outside money. I’m bringing in your case, a whole career, you know, a first career’s worth of work experience, graduate degrees, insights. So yeah, as you said, just leave a good impression, like let them know what you’re about and what you need. And in the future, belaying those seeds and in the future they may be able to come back to you with some kind of offer. And your case, it’s worked out over and over and over again. And I’m so glad that we captured that story in this interview. José, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It’s been a pleasure to have you.

40:48 José: Well, I’m very blessed to be here, Emily. And I thank you for four years of putting up with me and such wonderful advice. And I’m just glad that, you know, I’m able to demonstrate what you do when you put into effect the guidance that you’ve shared with us remotely and in my case remotely and in person.

41:10 Emily: Thank you!

Outtro

41:16 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.