money story

This Grad Student Channeled Her Financial Exuberance into Teaching and Coaching Her Peers (Part 1)

October 21, 2024 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Elle Rathbun, a 5th-year PhD candidate at UCLA. Elle shares her financial origin story of growing up in a low-income family, becoming a QuestBridge scholar during undergrad, and working for two years before matriculating at UCLA. During those years, Elle developed her financial acuity and prepared financially for grad school, including investing for retirement and saving up cash. This energy carried forward into grad school, where within her department Elle started a group to chat about money and created resources to help her peers navigate the financial aspects of their fellowship and UCLA’s bureaucracy. Tune in to the next episode for part two of the conversation!

Links mentioned in the Episode

This Grad Student Channeled Her Financial Exuberance into Teaching and Coaching Her Peers

Teaser

Elle (00:00): I think a lot of undergraduates and techs and PhD students are like, oh, I’m not making money yet, um, to any real degree. Like, I’ll just wait. Um, and I think that’s one of the worst things you can do is to wait. Um, and I think even if you have five extra dollars to put into a Roth IRA, I think that is worth doing.

Introduction

Emily (00:25): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (00:54): This is Season 19, Episode 5, and today my guest is Elle Rathbun, a 5th-year PhD candidate at UCLA. Elle shares her financial origin story of growing up in a low-income family, becoming a QuestBridge scholar during undergrad, and working for two years before matriculating at UCLA. During those years, Elle developed her financial acuity and prepared financially for grad school, including investing for retirement and saving up cash. This energy carried forward into grad school, where within her department Elle started a group to chat about money and created resources to help her peers navigate the financial aspects of their fellowship and UCLA’s bureaucracy. Tune in to the next episode for part two of the conversation!

Emily (01:41): This fall, I’m opening my calendar for 15-minute introductory calls! This is a chance for you and me to meet one-on-one. I want to hear your current financial questions and challenges. If I can provide some quick value by answering a question or pointing you to a resource I absolutely will. These calls are a way for me to keep a pulse on what’s going on financially in our community so that I can address whatever comes up through my seminars for universities and the free content I create. I would love to meet you, so please sign up today at PFforPhDs.com/intro/. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s19e5/. Without further ado, here’s part 1 of my interview with Elle Rathbun.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:40): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Elle Rathbun, who is a, an entering fifth year PhD candidate at UCLA and Elle and I actually met last spring when I was giving an in-person seminar at UCLA, and she was there because she was part of the financial wellness office, so she was there with a booth so the students in attendance could get some extra resources after my presentation was done. And she came up to me after the presentation introduced herself, which I love it when people do that. So podcast listeners, if you ever have the opportunity, please, please introduce yourself. We had an amazing conversation right then and there, and I immediately invited her on the podcast. So we’re gonna have a really good time today learning about Elle’s story, how she came to work for the financial wellness office, everything she’s done in her personal finances, in between. So Elle, I’m absolutely delighted to have you on the podcast today, and would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

Elle (03:30): Absolutely. Thank you so much, Emily. I am so excited to be here. First of all, I am a long time listener, even before I started graduate school. This is really something that, um, this podcast kicked off my, my interest in personal finance as a PhD student. Um, and so yes, I was, uh, raised in Durango, Colorado, so a very small rural mountain town. Um, and my parents always sort of, um, struggled to keep things afloat in terms of, in terms of finances. Um, and so I was able to get the QuestBridge Match scholarship to the University of Chicago for my undergraduate degree. So that meant that I got a full ride, uh, uh, to to University of Chicago where I majored in neuroscience and biological sciences. Um, and I was really, really grateful for, for that opportunity. Then I stayed at the university, uh, for two years in a biophysics lab. So I was a tech there. Um, and that sort of is really when, uh, things started coming together for me in terms of what I wanted to do academically, but also when it came to personal finances. And, um, and then I ended up at UCLA’s graduate program in neuroscience. Um, and that’s where I am now.

QuestBridge

Emily (04:39): Okay, fantastic. Now I wanna talk more about your, um, interest in personal finance, your passion for the subject. And you mentioned this QuestBridge program, so maybe we should start there. Can you tell us more about that program?

Elle (04:51): Absolutely. I’m happy to. So QuestBridge is a phenomenal nationwide program that basically helps match high achieving low income students with some phenomenal, uh, undergraduate universities. So I think at the time I applied, I, we had 35 partner colleges and now we’re way above that. Um, and essentially what it is, is it’s an application on its own. You apply as a high school senior before in the fall, um, and then the people at QuestBridge look through those applications, figure out who qualifies, uh, both financially and academically, and then helps match those students to a partner college. And it’s a phenomenal program. You rank which colleges you would want to go to, and the deal is whichever one you rank the highest that accepts you, you have to go there, but you get a full ride. And so for me, that also included a stipend for housing and included money for books and for travel, um, and for food and board. And so it was just, it was a phenomenal experience. Um, and it allows me to not have the burden of student loans, which I have come to learn more about. Um, and it’s, there are thou- now thousands of, of QuestBridge alumni, um, and I’m continuing to work with them, uh, in terms of guide, sort of guiding Questees for, um, preparing for graduate school, whether that’s law school or medical school or PhD programs, um, and sort of things that people from, especially from low income backgrounds, don’t necessarily know or not are not, uh, privy to, especially since so many of them are children of immigrants, first generation students, college students, um, et cetera.

Emily (06:27): What an incredible program. I had no idea that it was both, you know, the, the tuition and fees and everything and all that plus the stipend and your living expenses. I mean, it’s a very analogous situation to, um, being in a funded graduate program, really. And so that’s a very interesting kind of like, um, twist on this in that you had some experience prior to starting graduate school with managing that kind of budget, right? The stipend kind of budget. Um, it’s just incredible that you had that opportunity and that you’re giving back now to like, you know, help shepherd, you know, other people interested in the path that you’ve taken, uh, along that same route. Okay, awesome. So college, no student loan debt. Um, great. And talk to us a little bit about that, um, interim time period before you started graduate school and like what was going on with your finances, and it sounds like you started listening to this podcast, maybe looking at other resources too during that time. Tell us that story.

Financial Journey From Childhood To Grad School

Elle (07:12): Um, I started working when I was very young. I started, uh, selling rocks by the train, uh, in Silverton, Colorado. So if you’ve ever visited Silverton, um, or took the drain from Durango to Silverton and saw kids selling rocks, I used to be one of those kids. Um, and so it was very sort of my personal finance story started very young. I I always thought about money, not necessarily always with a negative connotation or a positive connotation. It was just a reality. Um, and I knew how many rocks I had to sell in order to buy the grilled cheese sandwich that I needed, that I wanted at the end of the day. And so, um, when I entered college, I had some savings from the rocks, from working in multiple restaurants, um, in my parents’ shop, et cetera. Um, and so you’re Yeah, exactly right. That was sort of my emergency fund going into undergrad where a lot of things were paid for, but I had some flexibility and I knew I had to be very careful with that stipend. So coming out of undergrad, I was able to, I had about, I was, my net worth was about the same as going into undergrad. Um, and then I realized, okay, I need to start saving money. One of my reasons for staying in Chicago, um, for those two years before my PhD was because I knew the lay of the land. I knew that it was affordable. I knew I could get cheaper housing here than I could in LA for instance, or New York or Boston. And so, but I knew that in order to be stable and to feel, uh, like I had flexibility, um, and to be able to help my family if they needed it, I needed to really get my stuff together, um, and, and understand where I was, where I wanted to go, and how I could get there. Um, especially before starting, uh, graduate school. And so I started listening to this podcast. Um, I think this is the main podcast that I’ve just continued listening to. Um, and I think I fangirled out when I met you <laugh>, um, just because I’ve listened to like almost every episode. Um, and, uh, but I also start, I listened a little bit to Dave Ramsey, uh, which I think is fine for people with credit card debt, but that wasn’t necessarily my case. Um, the Dough Roller Money podcast Money Girl, um, I read Beth Kobliner, uh, Get a Financial Life, um, in your twenties and thirties, um, and then sort of just hodgepodged a lot of podcasts, resources, pamphlets, booklets, webinars, um, and, and try to figure out, okay, what do I need to prioritize? What do I need to do? And when can I apply to graduate school? Because applying to graduate school isn’t necessarily cheap. Um, and so, so that was sort of what, what came to be over those, over those two years.

Emily (09:48): So it sounds like you, um, knew that you were probably headed to graduate school at the, even coming out of undergrad, right? But you wanted to take some time to get your feet under you, figure out where you wanna do that. Exactly. I have the same story for my, you know, between undergrad and grad school kind of time period. Um, were you intentionally then working on like building up savings to have maybe a more robust emergency fund? Were you working on investing because maybe you knew that would be more difficult, you know, once you started graduate school? Like what, what sort of goals did you set during that time period?

Elle (10:16): At first, I was just like, okay, just figure out where I am, like, figure out how many credit cards I have, figure out how much I have in savings, figure out what those savings are for, um, how much I feel a need for a comfortable emergency fund. Um, so the first goal was just to understand where I was. And then the second goal was me looking at my benefits and being like, what is a 403B? I have never heard of that. I’ve heard of a 401k. Um, and that’s sort of it. And so it became pretty apparent that I needed to educate myself further because I knew, okay, if this is taking a good sum of my paycheck, I wanna know what that’s going into. Um, and also in my junior year, senior year, one of my, uh, older friends who worked at the university told me, just open a Roth IRA, just trust me. You won’t regret it, just open it, throw a couple dollars in, um, and, and then educate yourself on it. And so I had done that as well. And, but I had, I had put it in there, um, but didn’t invest it, uh, just was sort of sitting in that, in that cash account. And so that was my, my second goal. So after I understood where I sort of was coming from and what I had, um, I wanted to learn more about invest investing. Um, and so a lot of my youth was, uh, I was told, don’t invest. That’s fake money. Like the stock market isn’t real money. Um, and so I sort of had to reeducate myself, um, in, uh, sort of the risks, but also the benefits of investing in the stock market and the bond market, um, and what a retirement account was, why it existed, um, advantages of, of those and, and tax laws and things like that. And so, um, so that was my next step was to just sort of understand and start investing.

Resources For Learning How To Invest

Emily (11:58): You’ve already listed a few different resources, like podcasts that you listen to. Was there anything that you found, well, is there anything you would recommend to the listeners who are at a similar stage and wanna learn what investing is and how to do it and what a Roth IRA is and what a 403B is and all of that? Any books or, or any resource that you enjoyed?

Elle (12:15): Yeah, I think that Get a Financial Life book was a game changer for me in reading that. Um, and also this podcast and Money Girl, I think, um, oh, I forget the host’s name currently, but, um, the, the host does a phenomenal job breaking down everything. Um, and also, uh, if you can by Bill Bernstein, um, just sort of it, because that especially takes, really takes into account like not everyone can do this, um, but a lot of people can do at least a little bit. And that’s where to start. It’s so important to start building that habit. So once you can contribute more to a retirement account, you already know what that is and how to do it. Um, and also just your local hr,

Emily (12:55): I’m really glad to hear these resources, some of which are new to me, like the Bill Bernstein book that you just mentioned. Um, I’m gonna check those out because I found that a lot of the maybe most popular personal finance, or maybe now it’s financial independence material is much more geared for high income earners who have a different set of financial things to deal with than lower income earners. Um, I’m not at all surprised that you mentioned Dave Ramsey because even though his philosophy is maybe at odds with mine or other people’s at certain points, he does try to speak to people who are lower income at times. And so yeah, I’m just, I’m really glad to hear these resources and, and yeah, to have you speak to this because it’s a different set of things that you need to handle when you’re not quite in graduate school yet or, or in graduate school than you would, you know, later in your career.

Financial Goals Before Applying to Grad School

Elle (13:42): Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, that, that’s something to, to keep in mind as well for, for listeners, for people who I coached, which we’ll get into later. Um, but in terms of just building the habit, um, right, I think a lot of undergraduates and techs and PhD students are like, oh, I’m not making money yet, um, to any real degree, like, I’ll just wait. Um, and I think that’s one of the worst things you can do is to wait. Um, and I think even if you have five extra dollars to put into a Roth IRA, I think that is worth doing. Um, just to, to figure out what it is. I had, I think I had $500 sitting, sitting in my Roth IRA for like two years before I figured out what that actually was. Um, and, and then as soon as I realized, oh, okay, I need to invest this, um, that sort of just took off flying. And so that was, that then became my main goal because I didn’t know when I was going to start a PhD program. I didn’t even know, even know what PhD program I was going to apply to. Um, I was deciding between, uh, neuroscience or biological sciences or even biochemistry. Um, and so while figuring out all my academic stuff, um, I decided, okay, I will apply to graduate school when I am comfortable, uh, with the idea of maxing out my Roth IRA for five years. Um, and so I didn’t necessarily need to have all of that money in cash right away, but I needed to have a plan to max out my Roth IRA for five years. Um, and that’s, that was sort of my, my threshold for, for applying to graduate school.

Emily (15:13): Hmm. That’s a really interesting goal. I mean, I definitely see the merits of it, of course. Um, now I’m wondering when you were applying to graduate school, how much you had the stipend and the cost of living, um, in mind since it had been such a focus for you over the past couple of years?

Elle (15:26): Very much in mind, um, the first, the first job was to get into graduate school. And so, um, so I sort of, I, when I applied, I didn’t consider it. I think I had looked at what graduate housing options were in all of those areas, but, um, I knew I didn’t necessarily have to go, uh, even if I applied. And then once it came time to decide, um, I was basically, it, it, it got narrowed down eventually to just two options. One was UCLA, which is, um, in a very high cost of living area, um, but it would be new to me. And they offered me basically a recruitment, um, scholarship, which was a large enough sum of money to make me feel comfortable matriculating in this program. But the other option was to stay at UChicago. Um, and there I had cheap slash uh, cheap housing essentially. Um, I was living in a house where I would be taking care of the dogs and I didn’t necessarily have to pay rent. Um, and so, but I, so that would mean that I could essentially keep the majority of my stipend and continue saving. And so in that regard, I decided that UCLA was the better career move, um, and even the overall better financial move, I could make more connections. I would have more opportunities, and I would be studying precisely what I wanted to study. Whereas UChicago, which just wasn’t as good of an academic fit.

Emily (16:47): I think that’s the ideal position to be in when you are, um, applying to graduate school and you are keeping an eye on the personal finance side of things is just the decision is not gonna be completely determined by the finances, but you least need to set some kind of bar of, like, anything above this bar I’m gonna be able to say yes to, and I can decide based on the academics or whatever other factors are important to you. But you just know that anything below that bar is, is really just not a viable option. And a lot of times you don’t really, even though it’s great to check out what the stipends are, what the, you know, what the base stipends are, what the cost of living is, et cetera, in advance, a lot of times you don’t know until you get into admission season exactly what they’re going to offer you. Because like you said, with UCLA, they could come up with an extra scholarship or fellowship that you weren’t aware that they were going to offer you. And that can completely change the calculus of the situation.

Elle (17:32): Oh, absolutely. I had, I had my mock budgets of whether I stayed or at U Chicago, whether I continued living in that house or whether I came to UCLA and lived in graduate housing versus with, without roommates. I had all the mock budgets just because, um, it’s, it’s a commitment. It’s like a five plus year commitment, um, for, especially for the biological sciences. Um, and so I knew that like, okay, this is a financial decision as much as it is a educational and, uh, career decision.

Current Housing Situation

Emily (18:03): And I’m really glad to hear that you had those different like scenarios modeled out too, because sometimes, okay, so I don’t know. So are you living in graduate housing now?

Elle (18:12): No, I, I started, uh, because I matriculated in 2020 and then, um, and so I lived my first year here in graduate housing and then I moved to a, a private rental.

Emily (18:23): Okay. Was that the plan all along or was there a possibility that you could have stayed in graduate housing?

Elle (18:28): UCLA offers three years of graduate housing. Um, and then after that it’s really hard to stay in it unless you move to family housing. And so, um, I think my plan was always like, okay, start in, uh, graduate housing, um, and then maybe go live with friends, sort of get a lay of the land <laugh> after Covid is over and, and then, um, move somewhere cheaper because graduate housing is in West la. Um, but that’s not necessarily where I needed to stay. So currently I live in Studio City, in the Valley.

Current Financial Goals

Emily (18:56): Okay. So we’ve talked about kind of the lead up, you know, your decision to go to UCLA now that you’ve been in graduate school for four years. Um, what kinds of goals have you been working on? You mentioned the Roth IRA earlier. Have you been able to do that? Anything else? Just let us know how your finances have been going

Elle (19:11): In graduate school. Yes, I’ve been keeping up with the, the Roth IRA, I’ve been learning more about different retirement, um, options. Um, and I’ve sort of stuck with the same strategy, just index funds, putting extra savings into, uh, different account types and, um, keeping up with my budget, I budget with YNAB or you need a budget, which is a phenomenal budgeting service. Um, and just sort of making sure that my finances and how I spend my money align with my goals and my priorities. So that absolutely includes, uh, investing for retirement, but also, um, I am also investing in, uh, a taxable account just for an eventual down payment on a home. And, um, making sure to spend, spend, uh, enough money on, on funds, so things like travel and seeing different sites in la. Um, and then I also, on the non-money side of things, um, sort of just created a lot of resources for myself and for others where I could sort of track my net worth because that is very motivating to me just to be able to see progress over time. Um, but also getting things in order. Like I, uh, I signed up for life insurance term life insurance, uh, when I was a first year graduate student, just because I am sort of my family’s overall retirement plan. And so if anything were to happen to me, I would want to make sure that they, um, are at least somewhat stable financially. And so, um, so sort of putting that into place, getting a feel for, um, what’s su- what is sustainable in terms of credit cards. I’m big on credit card bonuses and rewards. Um, and so that’s something else that I’ve sort of made sure that I was good to go, um, and, and to sign up for more credit cards, um, while still maintaining a good, uh, credit score and, but being, being able to take advantage of, of that, that as well.

Emily (21:10): So exciting. I love all of those. Um, I love that there’s a variety of goals in different areas, right? It’s not just about increasing the net worth, it’s also about increasing your own financial, um, education you could say, or just your, um, acuity and also like some budgeting stuff. I love that you mentioned Y-, uh, YNAB you need a budget and you know, the credit card stuff. I’m curious, um, about how your spending is overall. ’cause you mentioned that you, you wanna spend on fun things on discretionary items. You may have heard me mention on the podcast before, like the balanced money formula. It’s probably something you’re familiar with. Um, I’m curious how your overall budget conforms or doesn’t conform with the balanced money formula, because it can be so challenging to achieve that on a grad student stipend in a high cost of living area. So go ahead and have you made that comparison before?

Current Budgeting Process

Elle (22:00): Not explicitly. So I think the sort of, the way I approach things, especially in YNAB is the, I still stick with the whole pay yourself first thing. So, um, I, um, have a specific set amount that I put aside for the Roth IRA that’s just determined by the federal maximum, um, every month. And then, and I always, I save up throughout the year and then deposit it right at the beginning of the year. So I try to get it in there as, as soon as possible just so I can forget about it, um, and not have to like, keep such an eye on it or figure out when I want to, to invest it or not. And so, so that’s my strategy for that. And then I also have specific amounts for, um, a home down payment and a car down payment. Those aren’t necessarily massive funds, but they are goals of mine. And so I just make sure that every month I put in, um, that set amount. And um, and then after that I figure out, okay, like how, how am I doing, uh, and where are my finances? And then I go ahead and distribute throughout the rest of the categories, starting with, with needs. So of course, like rent, utilities, groceries, uh, gas, those are basically my big ones. Um, and I, I have a monthly goal of how much to budget, so not necessarily how much to spend, um, but how much do I wanna allocate to each category? Um, and usually I don’t really know how much I spend in a month because that varies all the time. And also if I go get car maintenance and it costs $1,500, that kind of offsets my monthly spending, but it has almost no impact on my monthly budgeting, um, because I save for that, I know I eventually need car maintenance. I know I’ve eventually want to buy an expensive plane ticket. And so, um, so my, I don’t focus too much on the spending. Um, I just make sure that I spend whatever I have available in my budget and if I don’t, I sort of just reallocate, um, when I’ve called it rolling with the punches. Um, and so, um, and then after I reach sort of that amount that I am comfortable with budgeting, if I have any leftover, then I just start putting it in next month’s categories. Um, and then if I get more than two months out ahead, um, then I just, everything else just goes straight to, um, my home down payment fund.

Emily (24:15): So I’m not a YNAB user, but I’m a longtime wine nab admirer. Does the software en enable you and, and sort of teach you how to do all the things you just mentioned? And I’m specifically wondering if the software makes any suggestions on where you house these different pools of money? Like does the software think it’s okay to all stay in your checking account? Does the software want you to have like a single separate savings account? Like sort of mechanically? How do you communicate between the software and like how you structure your accounts?

Elle (24:42): Uh, great question. Um, I love YNAB because it is so flexible, it doesn’t necessarily give information as to whether it’s something should be checking or savings, um, or a cd. Um, that’s sort of for you to completely decide. Um, and so, and then I just write it in the account name. So I have like an ally cd and that’s where I house my emergency fund because if I need, if in case of emergency, um, break glass, I don’t really care about the interest that I might lose, um, if it’s like fairly short term. Um, but they do separate things into budgeting versus tracking accounts. So basically anything that looks that is within budgeting is for spending. And if you move something from budgeting to a tracking account, it looks, it comes up in your spending reports. So I love this feature because it allows me to make saving look like spending. So if I pull up my spending reports, um, and I don’t filter out anything, it, I see exactly how much I put aside for my home down payment for my car down payment, um, and for retirement, and I can always filter those out to get my actual spending. Um, but it sort of removes it mentally and within the software of, okay, <laugh> no touching, this is for these goals only. Um, of course in reality, if I really needed those funds, I can, I can pull from them, but I also would have to go through the hassle of adding them back into my budget where it would look like income. And so, um, in terms of, of checking and savings, it doesn’t really matter. So I think you’ve talked about ally buckets before, um, and I love those. And so for me, my ally buckets are listed as different accounts within YNAB even though in reality they are one actual account with one account number one routing number. Um, and so there’s a huge amount of flexibility in that. Um, and YNAB has like several, like four main rules, um, that, uh, really just help you figure out how to approach things. Um, and yeah, it’s a great software. Highly recommend it

Emily (26:40): Since you’re highly recommending it. Um, I, if I remember correctly, it’s free for one year for students, but then after that you pay for it. Um, can you tell people where to find this, how to sign up <laugh>?

Elle (26:53): Absolutely. Um, and so this is actually one of the many resources in, uh, a folder that I share with, um, UCLA students and my friends. Um, but yes, you can actually get 13 months for free. So YNAB offers all users a 34 day trial. So what I recommend to, especially students, unless you’re about to graduate, is sign up for the 34 day trial, then you just email them saying, hi, like, I did a 34 day trial, um, I’m still really interested, but I am a student, um, and I would like to sign up or I would like to get the year, uh, free that you offer students. Um, and, and then they say, no problem. They just need a proof of enrollment or acceptance. So I started mine even the summer before I matriculated, but at that point I had already had on my paperwork from U-C-U-C-L-A, so they accept that as well. So if you’re like a tech or about to reenter school, you can still, um, get away with that as long as you can have proof of being a student or about to be a student.

Emily (27:50): Oh, perfect. Thank you so much for the detail on that. Sometimes people really need like a what exactly when exactly,

Commercial

Emily (27:58): Emily here for a brief interlude! I’m hard at work behind the scenes updating my suite of tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2024. These educational workshops explain how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. For the 2024 tax season starting in January 2025, I’m offering live and pre-recorded workshops for US citizen/resident graduate students and postdocs and non-resident graduate students and postdocs. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they host one or more of these workshops for you and your peers? I’d love to receive a warm introduction to a potential sponsor this fall so we can hit the ground running in January serving those early bird filers. You can find more information about hosting these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Now back to our interview.

Talking to Peers About Money

Emily (29:15): You obviously have, you know, a great deal of passion, a great deal of knowledge about the subject area. You’re working on your own finances. I understand that you then started talking to your peers and started having more sort of interpersonal interactions around money. So can you tell us how that got started and, and what you were talking about with your peers?

Elle (29:33): Absolutely. So I, as soon as I started educating myself, um, about finances and personal finances and sort of really building up that confidence, um, and then starting graduate school, um, I wouldn’t really shut up about money. And so I would have, um, I would host these discussions just among my cohort about, um, finances. And everyone was coming in from different places. You know, some people were coming in straight through undergrad, um, and then some were married, some had been already been in the workforce for the better part of a decade. Um, and so it was really nice just to be able to see, um, how’s everyone doing? Um, right, how are we figuring out stipend housing? Um, how are we saving for retirement? Um, is anyone doing any side hustles gig work? Um, TA ships and, and sort of just opening the floor for those conversations. Um, and so that was really useful. And we also have to take a presentation class, um, as a first year and, but we can pick anything. So, um, I talked about finances, um, and, uh, and I think that really made me realize how much I loved educating people and just having a discussion and being educated. Um, I don’t necessarily, it’s not a one-way conversation most of the time. I learn a lot from everyone I talk with. Um, and so before graduate school, I, I started realizing this about myself and I was familiar that, um, or I knew that UCLA has a financial wellness program. So actually before I started graduate school, um, I reached out to financial wellness and talked with the, uh, then and still current director, um, Sara Potter-Gittelson. And she just sort of reaffirmed what I was doing. She said, she told me my options in graduate school. Um, we just sort of talked about retirement investing and, and aspects of being a student at UCLA, um, and how it impacts my finances and my financial wellness.

Emily (31:22): What are the specific kinds of like issues or questions that came up during like these money talks, money groups, conversations with your peers? Um, because I understand eventually you started creating some resources. So there, there must have been, you know, certain topics that came up over and over against certain questions or certain issues.

Elle (31:38): A lot of it was based on your podcast. And so one massive thing was taxes. Like how do we pay quarterly taxes? Do we have to pay quarterly taxes? Um, what, what’s the step by step for doing that? How, how well do they need to be calculated, et cetera. So, um, taxes were a big thing. Uh, payment schedule thing, scheduling was another. Um, and so just because UCLA, they, they’ve restructured the whole system, they just restructured it again. But when I started, we got paid pre-work. So our, um, our September stipend would disperse mid August, um, which was really nice. But once you join a lab and start being employed by your PI’s department, then it goes post work and it becomes a W2 income. And so just making sure everyone was sort of understanding what, um, that situation is. Um, making sure that if sometimes issues would arise with, uh, with how we got paid. So with our stipend, which also is how we paid our housing. So, um, if we got, if we got underpaid with our stipend and then housing just took that back up, we now have no disposable income and have to use like something like credit cards or loans if we don’t, um, have an emergency fund. And so, so those are things that I think came up a lot. Um, some people were, uh, uh, thinking about tutoring. Um, so a lot of like gig work. How do we manage that? Um, is it possible to do, um, and, and sort of all the implications that come with that. Um, and yeah, yeah, I think that’s the, the majority of it. And then of course I was just saying like everyone should open a Roth IRA and I got multiple people in my cohort, uh, to open a Roth IRA, um, which I am very, very happy about <laugh>.

Emily (33:24): Uh, honestly, I mean this is something that I get to hear through my work from time to time, but I, if they haven’t already said it to you, like, that literally changes people’s lives like five years from now, 10 years from now. Like if they haven’t said it already, like they’re going to think back on that and like, really, really appreciate that they ran into you that they were, you know, had the good fortune of just being in your circles and, and hearing that. ’cause they probably wouldn’t have gotten it, you know, from many other sources at that time. So, um, that’s amazing. So tell us more about the resources. Were they about taxes? Were they about these crazy bureaucratic pay schedule things like, um, I love how specific this gets to be, right? UCLA certain fellowships your program, like, let’s talk about that.

Financial Resources for Grad Students

Elle (34:01): Um, the resources, it’s just a, it’s just a folder where I’ve put everything that I’ve created. And so, um, I think one of the, the main things that I have the pleasure and privilege of doing is the orientation finance presentation, um, just to the program, just to the first year cohort, um, sort of orienting them on, okay, this is how we get paid, um, taxes are a thing, but also, um, I have a couple slides on credit and credit cards just to make sure that everyone’s sort of on the same page and we can have a discussion about that. And if you’ve never really considered credit or if you’ve never checked your credit report, I am available to go through it with you just because I think that is so incredibly important. Um, and I also just give, I cannot give tax advice. I am by no means qualified to do that, but I do provide links. Like this is exactly where you go to get your 1098T this is exactly our site ID that you enter. Um, here are the links to the California Franchise Chat tax board that is create an account, make your tax payments. These are the dates. Um, so just sort of links to things that are kind of hard to find sometimes. Um, and that’s even when you know you need to find it. And, and I think the major case with graduate school is that, especially at a place as big as UCLA is that it’s really easy for communication to sort of, um, be looked over, right? Like we get so many emails, we’re just inundated with all this information, especially while starting a graduate program, um, that I sort of try to synthesize the main key points of information, um, and, and, uh, communicate it to the incoming cohort. I also go through pay schedules. So I say, okay, this is our stipend, but also if we’re getting paid in May for June work and then we get paid in August 1st for July work, that means you have no more income coming in between May 20th and August 1st. Um, so sign up for direct deposit to make sure that your check gets, or that your, uh, uh, income gets to you in time. Otherwise they will mail you a check and you won’t get it till August 5th. And if you rent is due August 1st, you need that money. Um, so sort of just going over things to, so that people can either approach me about it if they have any questions later. Um, right. Roth IRAs and investing are a multiple day long conversation. Um, but uh, just sort of putting things on people’s radar. Um, I tell them, uh, oh, just put it in your calendar right now, um, or set aside money or this is where to go get a loan if your, uh, payment doesn’t come through, um, et cetera. Just so they have like a go-to uh, person and also a go-to presentation that. And then I give them the link to the presentation, um, that is just full of notes and links <laugh>. So, um, those, that’s the main, uh, resource that I, uh, created. And then every year the, the presentation changes, just depending on how long the presentation is and, and what changes the university has undergone.

Emily (37:04): Your program is so lucky to have you honestly <laugh>, um, because a lot of the things you just listed, um, I actually have, I I even use the same like phrasing that you do, but I created a new workshop this year called Your Financial Orientation to Graduate School. Um, and so it’s got a lot of, it has credit, like I never talk about credit, but I decided to put it in there because I was like, this is the best time, like right at the start of graduate school to be, you know, reassessing, rethinking, um, starting to build credit if you haven’t before. Uh, but my main point though is that like, even when I’m brought in by a client to give this presentation for like a specific university, and I do look into some policies, like I try to figure out, um, about their tax policies and I try to figure out about their pay schedules and, and all that stuff, but it’s not honestly not the same as having the lived experience of and knowing all those details.

Emily (37:49): And so I honestly can’t get to that level right without working through across many different clients. So your program, UCLA more generally is very lucky to have you have put this together because these resources are needed and they are really hard to find. And until you have, um, walked through it, it’s, it’s hard to know everything that you need to know, right? Until you’ve been through it. So they’re lucky this is not happening at other places. Although by the end of this interview we’ll get to how can this be happening at more places. Um, but that is just awesome and amazing. So next phase of this is, you already mentioned that you would approach the financial wellness office, you know, sort of as a, as a, as a client. Um, but then at some point you started working with them. So can you tell us why you took that step?

Working For the Financial Wellness Office at UCLA

Elle (38:33): Definitely. So, um, at the end of my third, third year of graduate school, I had applied to an NRSA an F31 diversity. Um, and so it’s just a, a grant. Um, and I had completed my qualification exams, um, and I was sort of just looking for more whether that was, um, volunteering and I, and I signed up for some volunteer opportunities. Um, and then in the fall, um, one of the two financial graduate consult financial wellness graduate consultants, um, was no longer able to maintain the position. And so they put out like a mid-year, like hire, um, job posting. And so I said, great, I already know that this is a great office. I’ve already met with Sara, um, and I wanna be a part of this because I’m already doing so much of this work and I’m spending so much time on Reddit giving people financial advice, um, or to, uh, redirecting them to, to resources. And so, um, so I sort of wrote out a whole thing to my, to my PI saying, this is not a zero sum game. Like, this is how I will make sure that I maintain my hours in lab, because that still is my priority, but also this is a huge passion of mine and I feel like I can absolutely really help people to an even greater extent. Um, and so it was really nice just because that was all in like October of, of 2023, um, and I got my PI’s approval, which I, uh, needed, um, on a practical and moral level. Um, and, uh, so I applied the interview was, was great. And when I was, uh, being onboarded, um, things went really smoothly and they had me sort of just go through a lot of their, their training that they typically do with consultants over the summer. Um, but we were sort of working on a, on a condensed timeline. Um, but fortunately I had been able to educate myself a lot, um, in regards to personal finances and, uh, so a lot of the stuff I was just able to like reaffirm, um, and I think it was mostly like student loans that was, uh, I was mostly unfamiliar with just because I don’t have personal experience with those. Um, but then we just dove right in. Um, so after a few weeks of, of training, um, I was signing up for, for workshops and for appointments. And so those are the main aspects of my job is giving, uh, workshops and the slides were already created to undergraduate students and graduate students. Um, so clubs or organizations within UCLA could ask us to come and talk to them. So these were like resident assistants, um, who wanted us to talk about credit to their, uh, to their residents, um, in the residence halls or, uh, more specific like biology PhD students who wanted me to talk about, um, graduate school and investing. And so, um, they could request that we go and talk to the group, um, and, and just be, be available as a resource and really just tell them like, Hey, if you want to dive more into your personal situation, you can make an appointment with us. So that was the other aspect of my job was one-on-one coaching, um, just sort of helping people figure out what resources were available to them, um, just to, you know, and it kind of motivated them to put a little thing together, just say, this is where I am, this is where I wanna go, help me get there. Um, and so, um, that was a phenomenal opportunity and I got to speak to, um, not just PhD students in the Biosciences, but also PhD students, um, in, you know, the humanities and in education and also, uh, law students, medical students, um, master’s students who are about to enter, uh, some really high paying jobs, but they didn’t know what to look for in their offer letters or, um, how to talk about like, uh, restricted stock units. And so I, I really was able to get, um, a whole breadth of, of people to talk to and I was able to educate myself. So we would have the coaching appointment, um, and, and then I would follow up with, with actual links and sort of an outline of what we talked about, an action item list if we created one together. Um, and, and I think with almost every single followup email, um, I think I included one specific, uh, uh, uh, episode from your podcast, like Emily talks about it here. And so, um, especially for, for uh, students who were expecting parents or who had just had a baby, um, or living in family housing, I think those episodes were incredibly useful. Um, and so yeah, so that was sort of my experience with financial wellness.

Emily (43:13): So exciting. Again, what a credit you are to this office, <laugh>, um, coming in with a great deal of like knowledge and, and, um, experience talking with your peers and so forth.

Outtro

Emily (43:32): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Navigating the Career and Financial Transition Out of Academia

October 7, 2024 by Jill Hoffman 1 Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jill Hoffman, a former assistant professor who left academia to become a stay-at-home parent and part-time business owner supporting academic entrepreneurs (including Emily!). Jill recounts how she decided that academia was no longer the best place for her and how she and her husband planned out how to swap roles as the stay-at-home parent and move cross-country to be closer to family. One of the major themes of this episode is how to prepare financially and in your career for transitions. At the end of the interview, Jill gives not only her best financial advice but also her best advice for someone looking to leave academia and someone starting a side business.

Links mentioned in the Episode

Navigating the Career and Financial Transition Out of Academia

Teaser

Jill (00:00): There are different seasons of life. Um, I think this is a season where like the benefits of, of flexibility, um, with our schedule and our time, um, and having a low stress job, um, they greatly outweigh, um, having that second full-time income right now. Um, and I know that it’s just like this period of time, not forever.

Introduction

Emily (00:31): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:01): This is Season 19, Episode 4, and today my guest is Dr. Jill Hoffman, a former assistant professor who left academia to become a stay-at-home parent and part-time business owner supporting academic entrepreneurs—including me! Jill recounts how she decided that academia was no longer the best place for her and how she and her husband planned out how to swap roles as the stay-at-home parent and move cross-country to be closer to family. One of the major themes of this episode is how to prepare financially and in your career for transitions. At the end of the interview, Jill gives not only her best financial advice but also her best advice for someone looking to leave academia and someone starting a side business.

Emily (01:45): I’m looking for interviewees for Season 20 of this podcast! This is your official invitation to volunteer to be interviewed. I love that on this podcast I get to feature PhDs and PhDs-to-be who are almost exclusively regular people and learn and share their real-life stories and strategies. If it’s been in the back of your mind to volunteer, please go to PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ and fill out the quick form, and I’ll be in touch over email. I look forward to interviewing you in the coming months! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s19e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:43): Today’s episode is a really special one because I have joining me today as a guest, Dr. Jill Hoffman. Jill is actually a returning podcast guest. She was originally on season three, episode four, and we’re going to use the interview today to just kind of like catch up financially and what’s been going on in Jill’s life overall, um, in the years since she gave us that prior episode. Um, to give you a tiny preview, Jill was a tenure track faculty member at the time of our last interview, and now she’s not <laugh> and she’s doing other things in her life, um, including working with me, uh, in personal finance for PhDs. So that’s what we’ve been doing together for the last about year and a half. Um, yes. So how did Jill get to this point? <laugh>. Um, Jill, please give us, um, a slightly longer introduction, um, and catch us up to where you were when we had that last interview.

Jill (03:32): Yeah, sure thing. So, um, I got my PhD in 2016 in social work. Um, and I worked as an assistant professor for six years. I quit my job right before or right when I was supposed to go up for tenure, um, which was two years ago, so 2022. Um, and then we moved back across the country to be closer to family from Oregon to Virginia. Um, and now, um, I am mainly a stay at home parent. Um, I’ve got one kid in preschool and one in elementary school, and my husband, uh, works full-time. And as you mentioned, um, we, we work together. I also have my own, um, small business providing virtual assistant services for online business owners, especially, um, academic entrepreneurs.

Financial and Personal Life Updates

Emily (04:14): So exciting. Let’s go all the way back to when you were on the podcast before. We talked a lot about student loans, we talked about public service loan forgiveness. Like let’s just kind of close that story first of all.

Jill (04:25): Yeah. So we have taken a, like student loans are on the, the back, back, back burner, um, right now since that time when we were really focused on student loan debt and kind of like figuring out what to do with it. Um, we, with all of the changes that have been going on with student loans, with like the save plan and um, with the covid pause and all those things, we just kind of said, all right, we’re, we’re not, nothing’s really happening with them at this moment. Um, we’re not doing anything with ’em. I got to a point in my, because I was doing public service loan forgiveness, um, I got to a point where I think I have like a little over a year left, um, and until I could potentially get them my loans forgiven. Um, but it, the trade off between staying in my job, um, and, and leaving it just for me personally, didn’t, the payoff wasn’t as, um, um, good as I thought it would be.

Emily (05:30): Anything else would you like to tell us about, you know, that maybe the time between our last interview and when you decided to leave your job?

Jill (05:37): A lot of things have happened, um, since that time and since kind of that when I decided to leave, two kind of big things happened. We had two like family emergencies that happened, um, since we last talked. So at the end of 2019, my dad unexpectedly passed away, and then my mom, um, had multiple major hospitalizations from like 2019 through 2021. And so those two things happened. Um, and then I had, in terms of like life events, not emergencies, I had another baby in 2021. Um, and so it was shortly after my dad passed away that we kind of were like, we’re too far from family. Um, we wanna move back to the east coast. We were on the West coast and, um, I don’t know that this is the job for me. Um, and so we kind of like used that time to figure out like, what do we, what do we do? ’cause we didn’t move until 2022 and I didn’t quit until 2022. Um, so we had a couple of years to like figure out what we were doing, um, in terms of next job, um, and, and where we were moving.

Emily (06:46): Yeah. I’m so sorry about your dad passing, especially unexpectedly, and I can certainly understand why that would cause you to rethink, um, what, you know, how you’ve set up your life and what you wanna be, um, doing with it. But obviously obvious to everyone who’s listening, like the decision to leave a tenure track job is huge. So tell us more about what was going on job wise that made you think wasn’t really the right job for you.

Jill (07:11): Yeah. I, there were a lot of different aspects to it. I think what it boiled down to was what, that I always felt like you have like the, the research, the teaching, the service, the three aspects of the job. And it felt like each of those could be a full-time job in and of themselves. And I felt like I could never do, um, like to the, like I was doing like a mediocre job at all of ’em, <laugh>, and it never felt like I felt like I was doing something unattainable, I guess. Um, and I was doing well and like, you know, I, um, was, had positive reviews, um, up until that point. Um, it just wasn’t, it didn’t feel meaningful enough for me to, to keep kind of working in a job that didn’t feel meaningful. I guess <laugh>, um, for, for me and the teaching aspect, there was a lot of teaching involved in my role and it wasn’t, that was never, um, why I got into academia. I really enjoyed the research part of it. And so, um, while I enjoyed like working with students, especially like one-on-one, um, and kind of like talking about career plans and things like that, I did not enjoy the teaching aspect and it just was so draining. Just like, I can’t, I can’t do this, um, for the rest of my career.

Emily (08:36): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and I remember, um, you had, or maybe still have a blog, right? Hmm. Toddler on the tenure track, and I remember that you, you’re into like time management and productivity and those kinds of things. And so obviously you put effort into your job and like trying to do your job as best you can, and you were intentional about that and you had tools at your disposal and so forth. And it, it’s, it’s very obvious to me that the job let you down, you know, like, you know that not the other way around. Right? Um, do you wanna say anything more about that?

Jill (09:11): Yeah, you know, I think the, the blog, starting the blog, um, was my way of like, trying to make it something that I wanted to do. Like it brought like some fun and meaning and like interest to it for me. And so, um, it was almost like, all right, I’m gonna figure out how to do this job in a way that like, allows me to really enjoy it. Um, ’cause how I’m doing it now is not, is not cutting it, I guess. Um, and so like by, I think just kind of like taking more time to reflect on like what I was doing, how I was doing it through the blog was a like my way of, of trying to figure out like, can I do this? Or is like, is this something that I wanna step away from?

Financially Preparing to Leave Academia

Emily (10:00): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so how did all this work financially, right? Because I also remember from the time of our last interview that I think you had your job but your husband wasn’t working at that time, right? So yeah. Talk about <laugh>, how, how the finances of leaving your position worked.

Jill (10:17): Yeah. Yeah. So this was like, we, um, so my husband was a stay at home dad for, um, pretty much the entire time we were in Oregon, which was about six years. Um, and we kinda slowly made the switch to him working full time and me being at home. When covid hit there were like whispers at my university that faculty might be furloughed a day a week. And I did the math in terms of like what income we would lose and it did not look great <laugh>. Um, and so my husband and I started kicking around the idea of him getting a part-time job, um, to, to boost our income if we needed that. Um, and uh, he ended up getting a, um, remote part-time, um, customer service job with Squarespace, um, that was like incredibly instrumental in helping us get across the country. Um, and just super helpful for making that actually work. Um, and so he started that job in like the fall of 2020. Um, and I can’t remember how many hours a week he was working. It wasn’t a ton, but we would, um, you know, as like most people that time like no childcare, so we would just kind of like switch off. Um, and I did a lot of evening, um, online classes and so, um, I would work in the evening and on the weekend and um, when he wasn’t working during the week, um, and then we’d like switch, um, child childcare or caregiving roles um, when I was done. Was not an ideal, like not an ideal setup. <laugh> as I’m sure lots of people know, um, but we knew it would, would be kind of temporary. I did not, um, end up getting furloughed. Um, so everything that he made, we threw into savings to save up for this move that, like, we weren’t at that time it was like, do I get a job? Do I get another job? Like do I keep my job and do it across the country? Like, what’s gonna happen? Um, but we knew that we likely wouldn’t have an employer paying for our move, so we were saving up for, it’s expensive to move across the country, <laugh>. Um, so we were kind of thinking towards that goal in terms of finances at that time, um, of saving up for this potential move the more like life happened. Um, with my mom being kind of in and out of the hospital and then having a baby and all these things, I was ju- I got so like burnt out and just like exhausted from life that I was like, I just need a break <laugh>, um, from like a, a higher stress career. Um, and so I made that decision to, to step away, um, just to kind of like let myself breathe a little bit, even though there’s like plenty of <laugh>, plenty of stress and all those things that come with caregiving, um, and taking care of family members. But um, not having the added stress of a job on top of that or like a full-time faculty job, um, felt a lot better to me, um, than than trying to stay or to move into another role.

The Two Income Trap

Emily (13:39): We’re going to continue with your story in just a second, but I wanna make an observation. Um, which is that there was this book that I read, actually my husband was assigned this book in college for some class he was taking, I read it afterwards. Uh, it’s called the Two Income Trap and Elizabeth Warren is the author or co-author or something like that. Um, and so it’s about how middle class families fall into what she calls the two income trap, which is we have two full-time jobs between the couple and our lifestyle consumes all of, you know, most all of that income. And so I see in your story, you and your husband intentionally avoiding the two income trap by if ever there was more than a hundred per- Yeah. Let’s say more than, um, one full-time job between the two of you. Like you said, that was going into savings. It was like an intentional like, um, uh, safety plan or like a backup plan, right? To get, have him get that part-time job when you had income uncertainty. And so at the point that one person has to leave a job or chooses to leave a job or whatever, then the other person, that couple can step up, take a full-time job and still be providing completely for the family because you’ve intentionally set your lifestyle so that only one full-time income is needed or something, you know, close to that. Um, so I just wanna make that observation. That’s very unusual actually, it these days. I mean, even since that book was published, it’s become more the case that people fall into and live in the two income trap because cost of living is so high compared to incomes. Um, so I just wanna make that observation and ask you like maybe how intentional that was from the finances side. I certainly understand why you would do it from like a lifestyle perspective, but how about from that financial perspective? ’cause your husband also has at least a master’s degree, right? He’s also like highly educated.

Jill (15:27): Yeah, yeah. He has a master’s degree. Um, I think the, I think when we first decided that he would be a stay at home parent, that was like a, definitely a financial decision there in terms of like childcare is so expensive. Um, and his, he has a master’s degree, but he’s in, um, his background is in counseling. Um, which not to say you can’t have a really high income with a counseling degree, but they’re not necessarily known for like super, super high incomes. Um, and so we figured that like him getting a job when I was working my faculty job, like most of that would be going to childcare, student loans. We don’t- rather him be able to spend, you know, his time with our kid, um, while I’m working, um, than be at a job and, and have our kid in in daycare. I’ve been budgeting for a long time in terms of like looking at what’s coming in, what’s going out. Um, and so we had a good sense for like what we spent in various areas and what we knew obviously what my salary, um, was. And when we moved to Oregon, he didn’t have a job so we were living on just my income and continuing to make it work. And so it stuck. Um, and we like the flexibility that it allows. I think we’ve just gotten so used to that <laugh>, um, that like, I think to have us both working feels like even though financially it would be really helpful, um, from like a logistical perspective, it just feels like, oh, I don’t, I don’t wanna do that. <laugh>.

Emily (17:14): Yeah. I remember thinking when my husband and I bought and moved into our house three years ago, it was the first time we were homeowners that there was just so much work to go around <laugh>. Like he works full-time, I work part-time and we have children and we have a house to take care of. My goodness, what is this? There’s just a lot of work to do and it’s, it is very, very helpful if there’s not in the mix two full-time jobs as well. Right. Um, so let’s pick up back with your story and about, um, you know, gearing up and for that cross-country move.

Financially Preparing to Move Across the Country

Jill (17:46): Yeah, so that, so we moved in 2022 when I, um, when I made the decision that I was not going to look for another job, my husband started talking to people at his work about like, can I, like how can I get to full-time? ’cause we knew that my benefits would not be around forever. Um, and so he was able to move into a full-time position in the, the same role that he was the same like customer service role, um, that he was in. This was like two months before we moved. It was kind of like last minute, last minute switch. Um, it was not, the pay was not great, but it got us benefits and we had a lot in savings. So we knew like we will be okay for a little bit, um, and we can do like a more, um, focused job search when we get to where we’re going if, if needed. Um, he continued to, um, look at open positions within his company and the month we moved, moved into another role with his company, um, higher paying, um, full-time remote position, which is where he is, um, current-, what he does currently. Um, and all of those things like allowed us to make all of this work without having to do too much like of a like major job search and, and um, like taking time off to interview and all these things like it since it was at his, um, employer already. And it was just really, really helpful. <laugh>,

Emily (19:26): Tell me about the cost of living difference between where you are in Oregon and where you live now.

Jill (19:31): Yeah, so in Oregon, um, we were in Portland, which is a high cost of living area. Um, and now we’re in Richmond, Virginia, which I was looking it up, it looks like it’s about average, maybe like a little below average, um, in terms of cost of living. So that was another really helpful move for us. Um, in terms of the house we bought here in Portland would’ve been like way out of our way out of our price range. Um, and so it’s just made some, some things possible that we probably, if we were moving back to like where I’m from in the DC area, I know you’re from there too. Like we wouldn’t have been able to <laugh>, um, buy a house probably at all the income difference. So when I was working as a professor, my highest salary, um, was just under 75,000 for like the 10 months. Um, so not super high. Um, we made it work. Um, and right now our total income is like a little bit above that, like 77,000. So that includes my husband’s salary, my part-time work, and then some interest income. Um, and so we have like roughly the same salary in a lower cost of living area, however, we’ve added one child, um, to our family. And so like we’re not saving anything right now. Um, and we’re not doing anything with student loans, as I mentioned. And I think it’ll probably stay like that until my daughter, my younger daughter is in kindergarten and I can add on like a client or two. Um, but I think like there are different seasons of life. Um, I think this is a season where like the benefits of, of flexibility, um, with our schedule and our time, um, and having a low stress job, um, they really outweigh, um, having that second full-time income right now. Um, and I know that it’s just like this period of time, not forever.

Emily (21:36): I, I think I’ve mentioned to you before, but I’ll say it for the benefit, um, of the listeners who have children or may want to have children in the future. But parenting wise, everything got so much easier. When our youngest got to kindergarten, like I felt like my whole world opened up <laugh> because they’re just so much more independent by that point and being in school and everything. So I can definitely see like just the lifestyle choices that you need to make, you need to make, to get through that like young child period. And like you just said, it’s not gonna last forever. Like things will be different in just a few years. Um, and so you can always make a different career decision. Either one of you can at that point.

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Emily (22:14): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, budgeting, investing, and goal-setting, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2024-2025 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutes enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Starting a Business While Working in Academia

Emily (23:32): Let’s talk now about your business. Like why did you, um, start it? Was it primarily motivated by money or something to do with your time and your brain? Like, tell us how that got started.

Jill (23:44): The business has had like various iterations over the years. So when I was working as a faculty member, like my role was like community manager, um, for another person in the personal finance space, um, Jamila Souffrant with Journey to Launch. Um, and so I got a taste for like entrepreneurship, um, through working with her. I did that for about a year and a half. Um, and since that time I had like tried out a bunch of different things, just like curious about like, oh, there’s all these people making money online. Like it’s opened up a <laugh> whole new world. Um, to me in terms of like what it just broadened, I guess my perspective on making an income, um, and that it doesn’t have to be the traditional jobs that we, um, think of like doctor, lawyer, professor, all these things. So I kind of was playing around with various things. Um, on my way out of my faculty role, I thought perhaps I’d wanna do some like coaching for, um, faculty who are interested in like leaving their jobs. Um, and I used some of my professional development funds, um, to pay for some training, um, in that area ’cause it was like aligned with what I was doing too with students. So I was able to kinda make a case for using money for that, um, or my professional development money for that. But to like run a business, you also need to fund it. I needed more, um, money to like fund the business, um, that I didn’t want to pull from like our personal income. And so, um, as I was kind of thinking about how to do that, um, I think you emailed your list at one point, um, needing, needing support. Um, and this is after I left my my faculty position. You emailed the list, um, needing some support. ’cause you had somebody who had left and I was like, oh, that fits with, um, like what I, you know, the skills that I have, um, interests that I have, um, I’ll apply. And um, so we started working together and kind of since that time I’ve really enjoyed supporting, um, other like small business owners. Um, and I have moved away from the coaching. Um, I did that for a little bit, but really like I enjoy the, the supporting other entrepreneurs. Um, and so, um, right now I work with you and I have one other client, um, just provide-, like it depends on like the needs of the business. A lot of like backend support once my, I thought about adding another client. Um, and I think once my daughter, um, is in kindergarten, I think I’m, I’m setting my sights on, on that time for expansion. But I think right now, like two is a good <laugh> a good number for the amount of time that I have, um, uh, when my daughter is in preschool ’cause it’s not, not many hours a week <laugh>.

Emily (26:38): Yeah. Well this is, um, just a curiosity on my part because I know that the work that I ask of you is very seasonal. Um, so we have a really busy tax season and then less at the other times of year, but sort of variable from week to week and and month to month based on your interest in like productivity and everything like that. Like do you have any, I don’t know if it’s for me, but strategies for people who go through like busier and less busy, like periods <laugh>?

Jill (27:02): I think what I find at least for myself is like really, I think it can be easy to like try and force yourself to use like, uh, you know, whatever task management tool. Um, because other people are using it or like, it, it could be so easy to get into like, well other people are using this and they say it works. Um, I’m just gonna like force myself to do it. I think using what, um, works best for your brain, um, is helpful. So I just had like, I used to use notion a lot, um, which I still love for like my planning, um, and all those things, but I’ve been finding that like just I needed something a lot more simple. Um, and so now I just have like a notebook where I like keep track of things, um, and write things down and check them off. Um, and so I think really like don’t, if something isn’t working, try something else. Like figure out a system that works for you and your brain and that might change depending on like the time of year it is. Um, and, and what you’re doing. Um, but don’t like, feel like you have to force it to make it work. Um, ’cause that just makes it that much harder. <laugh>.

Emily (28:19): Yeah, I’ve been reflecting. So as you know, we use Asana, um, to keep track of tasks and I find that if I get really busy, I need to go outside of Asana and use paper. Um, because in a task management system like that, I mean, I could blame myself too. It’s not necessarily the tool, it’s the way I use the tool. Um, I find that like everything is given so much equal weight <laugh> when they’re all like different check boxes on the screen and I’m like, actually one of these is much, much, much more important than the other ones. And so the paper helps me clarify like, what are my real priorities for the day or the week or whatnot. Um, not just like, what is my task management software telling me to do? Um, and I think I’ve been listening to a lot of Cal Newport recently and reading his books and stuff, and I feel like this is the difference between, I can’t remember what he has, like some kind of name for it, but basically like checklist productivity versus like actual, like getting things that are important done, uh, productivity. So when things get really busy, I have to draw a distinction between those two and focus on, uh, what’s actually important versus what I’m, I’m being told to do by my software <laugh>. Uh, let’s leave with some words of advice then a little bit more advice than I usually ask my guests because the first sort of person I want you to think of is a person who’s considering leaving a tenure track position or maybe even just maybe even before that point, like someone who was going down that route and maybe is deciding to leave graduate school or not pursue a postdoc or just basically step off of the path that they thought they were on. Um, do you have any advice for, for that person considering a major career shift?

Advice for Major Career Shifts

Jill (29:48): I’m thinking about the things that were helpful for me that I did. Um, I think one of the main things was like creating a plan, um, both financially, logistically on what things could look like. Um, when you leave wherever it is you’re at. Um, I had so many spreadsheets, so many like notion databases of just like different iterations of like what me leaving my job could look like and where we would move would look like. Um, and I think obviously this, like, this will change depending on if you’re going into another job. Um, if you’re, you’re taking a break between jobs, if you’re staying at home, if you’re starting a business, um, if you’re moving, um, I think there’s like a lot of different aspects of that that when you create like a, a detailed plan as as detailed as you’re able to get, um, I think those things can become a little bit clearer for you when you have it all out, all out on paper, um, or the screen or wherever. Um, I remember my, when we were in the process of like our move, we would have move meetings like once a week, my husband and I of like, okay, like what are the things, like here’s this big goal, like what are the things we need to do to get it done? Um, that was very helpful. But, um, yeah, so I think those things were like intertwined, um, in, in this process, especially if you’re tenure track faculty, I can’t speak to like being a postdoc, um, and grad school, this might be a little bit difficult. Um, but I think using the resources that are available at your institution to help support you and figuring out what you wanna do next. Um, so I think I mentioned earlier, um, if you have professional development funds to use, is there a skill you wanna build? Um, do you wanna get some career coaching? Um, do some networking at a conference, buy some books. Um, I think using any and all of the resources that are available to you, if you’re able to kind of make a connection to what you’re doing in your job, um, and it’s relevant to what you wanna do next, um, I think it’d be a helpful way to, to find that extra support.

Emily (32:02): Yeah, we’ve heard that advice actually from several other interviewees on the podcast who have made, whether it’s like a grad student, you know, graduating and moving on to something else or a faculty member. I’ve, I’ve heard that numerous times. It’s, it’s kind of amazing that people can make those connections between what they’re doing now and what they think they’re doing next and, and get training that is supportive of both of those roles.

Jill (32:22): Yeah, yeah. Another thing, like another resource, um, I guess that was helpful for me. It was just like I asked so many questions of HR <laugh>, um, and this process just like hypothetical, like if I were to like quit at this point in my contract, like how long will my benefits last? And just kind of getting those logistical pieces that are helpful to know like, okay, my, my husband needs to have his health insurance, um, by this date because mine will no longer be in effect. And if that doesn’t happen, we need to get temporary health insurance and all those things. I think HR can be a really helpful, um, resource, um, if you’re comfortable like talking with them about potentially leaving. So like when my dad died and my mom was hospitalized, um, I was doing all the like estate settlement and then I was considering going back and helping with my mom’s care. Um, and then Covid happened, so didn’t, that didn’t happen, but I talked through with hr, like I think at that point I was kind of considering like, do I wanna quit or do I just need like a, a significant break? And so I talked with HR about like, can I use FMLA to go care for my mom? Like how can I take a break without actually quitting and doing the things I need to do? Um, and I didn’t actually use, um, FMLA for my parents, but did for, um, uh, when my daughter was born. Um, if, um, like family medical stuff is, is, um, any anyone is going through that. Um, I think they’re also a helpful resource to talk through, like what your options are. I think another thing that was so helpful for me is to seek out other people who have done what you’re trying to do, um, and talk to them if possible. I had a lot of Zoom conversations, phone calls, um, just to talk about like how did they, how they made it work, any tips they had. And honestly, just to like, I think when you’re still in the position, it can be, it could feel like impossible. Like, this isn’t ever gonna happen. I’m not gonna be able to find something else, or I’m not gonna be able to make this work. Um, so just seeing o- other people, other examples of, of doing the thing that you wanna do, um, and is so, so helpful. Um, and there are a number of, at least for like leaving academia, um, Facebook groups. Um, if you’re into Facebook, um, Academics say goodbye. The professors out, PhD mamas leaving academia, those were three that I, um, joined and kind of like, um, looked into as I was trying to make that, um, decision. And I think also related to other people like using your network, including family and friends, um, like tell them about what you’re wanting to do. Um, even if they can’t support you directly, they might know somebody who might be able to help you out in some way. Um, whatever it is. And so I think that helped a lot, just kind of like sharing this is what we’re, we’re doing. Um, do you know anyone might that might, um, be able to talk to me about X, y or Z?

Emily (35:36): It’s, it’s not surprising to me that you were able to find so many other examples, um, of people who had left tenure tech positions or those Facebook groups, for example. It’s just a little sad, it’s just a little sad that this profession, people make it their identity so that leaving and they make an academia makes it seem like it’s a one way street, right? You can never get back. It’s a permanent decision. So people put a lot of weight on the decision, right? Um, and yet it’s also such a difficult place to survive <laugh> that a lot of people want to leave <laugh>. Um, it’s not, it’s not everyone’s dream job as it turns out once you’re actually in it. So, um, but that is really, really great. I thank you for mentioning those groups specifically and, and the networking aspect of it. And yeah, there, we’ve had numerous people on the podcast too who have left academia, so I’m pretty sure including Jill, any of those people would be good ones to reach out to. Um, if, uh, you aren’t considering the listeners considering, uh, such a shift. Um, okay. Let’s talk about advice then for another type of person, which is, um, someone who wants to start a business, let’s say on the side, like part-time, the way that you’re doing right now. Um, and they could be at any stage in their career when they wanna do that. Uh, do you have any advice for that person?

Advice for Starting a Part-Time Business

Jill (36:45): Yeah, I think, I mean, I think a lot of the I things that I just shared are, are applicable to, I think also the, the networking and just seeking out other people. There are a lot of people, especially academics who, um, start businesses it seems. Um, and so talking to those people, um, and asking kind of the same, same thing, like how, how did you make this work? Um, or like listening, finding other podcasts that, um, where, where people are talking about kind of these, these types of things. I think too, like if you’re in, especially if you’re in, you’re in a faculty position, like it could be helpful to look at like your university’s policies on having a, um, an outside, outside employment. Um, I know my previous university, because I was in social work, so a lot of people like saw clients outside of, um, outside of our like faculty roles. Um, and so there was definitely language somewhere. I can’t remember exactly what it, what it said, but it essentially like, as long as, if you’re working like during work hours, like no more than eight hours a week or something can go to your, um, like outside business, um, or outside income. Um, and so it’s just making sure that like, honestly no one ever talked to me or asked me about it <laugh>. Um, but I think just so that, you know, um, what the university’s policies are, I think that can be super helpful to, to look into.

Emily (38:19): I noticed something, um, when you were describing the start of your business as well, which was experimentation, um, which I did too. And I think a lot of people who start businesses also do, uh, in terms of like businesses that like make it, maybe they become big or you know, whatever, it’s usually those entrepreneurs like third, fourth, fifth, seventh business, like, it’s usually not the first thing they’ve ever tried and they’ve had either failures in the past or just things they’ve abandoned along the way. And you didn’t necessarily abandon your business, but you just tried different things, different activities, different ways to make a money, different types of clients and figured out what you preferred. And I’ve done that too, even within like personal finance for PhDs, different ways of making money, again, different clients to work with different modalities and like figured out what worked best for me. So don’t, I guess for the listener, like, don’t be surprised <laugh>, if the first thing that you try is not the thing that you end up doing, um, after some time and it’s perfectly natural and, and should be experimented on because you’ll, you’ll find a good fit along the way. Um, it’s not necessarily, even though we were just talking about visioning and planning, like it’s not necessarily that your vision is gonna work out exactly the way that you thought it would from the beginning, but you can get to that point by just taking steps. So just getting started with something is the most, uh, the best thing to do.

Jill (39:30): Absolutely. And you learn so much throughout that journey. Um, I think, yeah, I feel like from where I started, I think I started with doing, um, online, like planning, yearly planning workshops for faculty and, and grad students. Um, and just have learned an incredible amount. <laugh> since those days are just like, oh wow. Like I, this is actually, people are actually paying me to do this. This is, it’s wild. So I think it gives you that confidence and then you learn like what you, like, what you don’t like, and, um, yeah, it’s a journey. <laugh>.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (40:02): Yes. Um, okay. Well let’s wrap up with my official last advice question, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that can be something that we’ve touched on in the course of the interview or it can be something completely new.

Jill (40:16): I think knowing exactly what is coming in and what is going out in terms of finances, um, at least for me has been so impactful. Um, knowledge is so powerful, um, especially about your finances. Um, it allows you to make more informed decisions. Um, and I think there’s something about seeing all that data, um, at least for me, it’s really motivating, um, in terms of like, you know, reaching savings goals or like seeing your retirement funds grow or it, I think it’s, it helps you, makes you wanna do it more. Um, at least I, I found that <laugh>, um, and I think like tracking those, like your expenses and income in a way that works for you. I know there’s like a ton of different budgeting apps and tools. I alway- I’ve used a spreadsheet, um, for a long time, um, and have tried out some apps, but just like I can’t, I always come back to the spreadsheet. Um, and so each year I start out with a new spreadsheet. Um, I have a tab for each month that looks at, um, what we spent, what we earned, um, that I’m updating on a weekly basis. And then I also keep track of like, um, savings, retirement, mortgage, student loans, um, on a monthly basis. Um, but that spreadsheet, um, has so much, it’s, it’s interesting to look at over the years and in preparation for this interview, I was looking back from like 2019 to now and it’s wild. Just like all the changes, um, that have gone on financially for us.

Emily (41:53): Yeah. And I think that the tracking, like you said, knowing your numbers, knowing what’s coming, what’s going out, um, enabled you and your husband to make those big financial decisions about jobs and moves and, and where to live and buying and all the things that have happened in the last few years. Um, because I think that people who sometimes people can get so, um, emotionally, um, intimidated by looking at their numbers that they don’t and they, it becomes an avoidant thing and then they become paralyzed and they’re not able to make those like bold decisions to change their lives because they just really don’t know what’s possible. They can’t do the visioning exercises, they can’t do the planning because they’re just not looking at the numbers. And so that’s just the first, the first step is really just to be able to like open that bank account, you know, um, you know, open it, look at the transactions, like look at the balances and everything and it all kind of like flows from there. Um, I was actually just listening to Ramit Sethi’s podcast. Um, I will teach You to Be Rich just earlier today, and the episode I’m listening to as so many of his episodes are the people he was interviewing, the couple, they were telling themselves a story about their money that was absolutely not true once you actually looked at the numbers. And it’s so clarifying to actually look at the numbers and the answers can come from the numbers. You just have to be like, brave enough to face, you know, the data and, uh, yeah. So I’m, I’m really glad to have this story from you, this example of how, um, your finances and your career and everything have all like played together and how you’ve been able to make those big decisions to do what works for you and your family, um, especially during the, the young kids season, the challenging time of life. Um, yes. So thank you so much Jill for volunteering to come on the podcast. It’s been lovely to speak with you, uh, in a different way than we normally meet

Jill (43:31): <laugh>. Yes. Yeah, thanks so much for having me, having me back on the podcast. It was fun.

Emily (43:36): Absolutely.

Outtro

Emily (43:36): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

What You Should Know about Money Early in Your PhD Career

July 29, 2024 by Jill Hoffman

In this episode, Emily shares the microinterviews she recorded at two higher education conferences this summer. The conference attendees, virtually all of whom work at universities and most of whom have PhDs themselves, responded to this prompt: “What do you wish you had known about money earlier in your career?” Listen through the episode for insights into the financial steps for which, should you take them now, your future self will thank you.

Links mentioned in the Episode

What You Should Know about Money Early in Your PhD Career

Teaser

Lyndsi B (00:00): You don’t have to make one decision and have it be the right decision for the rest of your life. Like you can make changes at any point along the way and you are allowed to fail and like you can recover from failure.

Introduction

Emily (00:20): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (00:50): This is Season 18, Episode 5, and today I’m sharing the microinterviews I recorded at two higher education conferences this summer. The conference attendees, virtually all of whom work at universities and most of whom have PhDs themselves, responded to this prompt: “What do you wish you had known about money earlier in your career?” Listen through the episode for insights into the financial steps for which, should you take them now, your future self will thank you.

Emily (01:20): The two conferences I attended were the Graduate Career Consortium Annual Meeting or GCC and the Higher Education Financial Wellness Alliance Summit or HEFWA. GCC is primarily attended by university staff members working with PhD students and postdocs in career and professional development. HEFWA is attended by university staff members working in financial wellness across undergraduate and graduate populations. These two conferences were excellent networking opportunities for me on top of the built-in professional development. However, there are plenty of universities who were not represented at these conferences. Would you please consider recommending my financial education seminars and workshops at your university? My most popularly requested events for the upcoming academic year are Your Financial Orientation to Graduate School, How to Prevent a Large, Unexpected Tax Bill on Your Fellowship Income, Expert-Level Budgeting for Graduate Students and Postdocs, and Demystifying Taxes for Graduate Students. Please direct an appropriate potential host within your graduate school, postdoc office, grad student association, etc. to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ where they can learn more. Thank you in advance! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s18e5/. Without further ado, here are the microinterviews recorded at GCC and HEFWA.

What Do You Wish You Had Known About Money Earlier In Your Career?

Amy (03:03): Hi, I am Amy from Princeton and when I was in graduate school I wish I had learned more about investing and saving for retirement and sort of how all that works early in your career to benefit you later.

Sharon F (03:18): Hi, my name is Sharon Fleshman. I’m a senior associate director at Career Services at University of Pennsylvania. I think coming out of undergrad I basically took the salary, I was pitched <laugh> and that was it. So I wish I knew the implications of a starting salary across the years.

Evan W (03:34): My name is Evan Walsh. I’m a career advisor at Harvard Medical School. I really wish I knew that it only takes a little bit each week to put towards something. So every week I put money away into a travel fund. Each week I put money away towards retirement. Each money I put a little bit away towards just miscellaneous fees that I may incur and it’s all within my master budget that I now wish I would’ve known earlier that I like to do and that’s really helped me sort of save for trips and things for my future, things that I wanna prioritize, how I utilize my money. So I wish I knew earlier that your money is yours to spend the way that you want to.

Laura S (04:11): Hi, my name is Laura Stark and I work for Harvard University. I got my PhD many, many years ago and I wish that I had known that I should start saving for retirement even as a graduate student.

Briana M (04:26): I’m Briana Mohan, I am a program manager at MD Anderson Cancer Center. A lot of times we feel, I have felt that money is tied to worth and my value as a professional and there actually is no correlation at all so far as I can see. So I think that decoupling those two things so that then it’s a little bit more feasible to work with money and money questions and speak about them and grapple with them and not have it so tied to how much I’m valued or how much I am worth, I wish I would’ve known that earlier.

Alla M (05:03): So my name is Alla Mirzoyan and I’m from Florida International University and I wish I had known about credit in the United States and not to sign up for credit cards without really understanding the implications. I was an international student so I knew very little about how credit works, but I know better now.

Gina B (05:25): I’m Gina Bellavia from the University at Buffalo and what I wish I’d known about money earlier in my career is, well, particularly because I got a PhD but then I went a non-traditional route. I didn’t go into academia, so I guess it would’ve been good for me to know going that route that I might have to kind of go down in pay to, to then start a new trajectory and then work my way up again, which I guess it makes sense if you think about it, but I didn’t really think about it that way. So it’s taken a little longer to to build up I think by taking that less traditional route, but, but I’ve also had greater career satisfaction.

Manali G (06:03): I’m Manali Ghosh. I’m a senior academic recruiter at St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital and I wish I had known sooner to invest in stocks like s and p 500 earlier in my career.

Ivonne V P (06:16): My name is Ivonne Vidal Pizarro. I’m at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville. I’m the research consultant in the graduate school supporting postdocs and I wish that I’d known that if I could save more money when I was younger, I’d have more in my 401k now.

David C-B (06:30): Hi, David Cota-Buckhout. I am the assistant director of Alumni Engagement and Career Support at the University of Rochester’s Graduate Education Postdoctoral affairs office. I wish I knew that I should have paid off my private student loans earlier so that way the compounded interest wouldn’t have backed me with so much debt. And just recently I was able to get rid of those student loans and then free up over $13,000 of interest that I can now put towards other things.

Katie H (07:07): I’m Katie Homar from University of Pittsburgh and what I wish I knew about money earlier in my career was the importance of researching salaries and negotiation.

Alex Y (07:18): Hi, this is Alex Yen, a second year postdoc at Boston University’s professional development and postdoctoral affairs office. The thing I wish I had known about money earlier in my career, and I think especially in graduate school, is that open a high yield savings account as soon as you can and put just a little bit of money, even if it’s 20 bucks, 30 bucks a month. Just having that and knowing that it can, it’s a long term sort of savings space that will continue to accrue interest, will make you feel less anxious and look forward to a time when you can save more

Dan O-B (07:56): Dan Olson-Bang, Syracuse University. If I had known this, I would’ve been grateful. Uh, don’t take out loans during your PhD.

Ryan U (08:05): My name is Ryan Udan. I’m director of the office for postdocs at UTM, the Anderson Cancer Center. As a long time trainee that did not make a lot of money, who navigated into a career path that I was ultimately happy in, it did take too long of a time to get to that career path that for me, I wish I knew about other career options that I would’ve been happy with earlier that paid better and earlier. So now I have a better understanding of all the other diverse career options that are available to people, not just for people with their PhDs, but for other types of professional degree programs that would’ve gotten me to a space where I was happy with my job and that I was making a lot of money more quickly. For example, I didn’t know about optometry field, I didn’t know about radiological careers and you know, the flexibility you have for, uh, uh, obtaining jobs more easily and, and many different places from small towns to big cities. And again, immediately after you get sometimes an associate’s degree, that stuff for me was a black box when I was training.

Giovanna G-M (09:14): Hi, my name is Giovanna Guerrero-Medina and I’m director of Diversity programs at the Yale School of Medicine and the Wu Tsai Institute. One thing I would’ve liked to know about money earlier in my career has to do with how much life costs and how there are gonna be times in your life when you will need to have extra cash because of health emergencies. Because you have to take care of family members who are sick. You have an emergency trip that you have to plan and so it’s important to have a, a fund or a a some money that is liquid that you can use in an emergency at some point in, in my life after my graduate school, my family had some emergencies and I also had some healthcare costs and it was really important for me to have that extra cash that I had saved and separated.

Bill M (10:15): Bill Mahoney. I’m the Associate Dean of graduate student postdoc affairs at the University of Washington. I’m also faculty in the School of medicine and I wish I understood a little bit better that making career decisions based on the next paycheck, the most money, it’s only part of the decision. You have to make it on what you love doing, the people you’re gonna support. And if you choose to stay in higher ed, you’re probably gonna not make as much money, but you’re gonna have a bigger impact on training the next generation of scientists and students to go on and do bigger and better things in uh, and improve the world.

Meredith O (10:44): Meredith Okenquist, Director of Career Management Villanova University. What I wish I knew more about was retirement planning at the very onset of my career and investing the full maximum percentage for my 401k.

Kirsten R (10:59): My name is Kirsten Ronald. I am the program manager of advanced degree career management at UT Austin. I wish I had known that you don’t need to go back to school to make a massive career change and I also wish someone had talked with me about the ROI of going back to school before I did it.

Colleen G (11:13): My name is Colleen Gleeson and I work at the University of Texas at Austin as an associate director for advanced degree employer integration. One thing I wish I had known about money earlier in my career is thinking about careers and jobs and salary packages and benefits in a way that like evaluates in the total compensation package and how invaluable it is to have employer paid health insurance and to have things like pay time off and something that forces you to invest in a retirement account or a pension to make you think about the future.

Marlene B (11:51): So my name is, uh, Marlene Brito, Dr. Marlene Brito and I’m the associate director of DEI at NYU Career Development Center. And what I wish I had known before I started a PhD was that you self-fund a lot of your activities as a doctorate student, especially if you’re a professional who’s going to school part-time, but sometimes even as a full-time student. So like save money for conferences, save money for research expenses because all of that cost thousands of dollars.

Melissa K (12:21): Melissa King, University of Mississippi, the best advice I ever received about money was when my husband and I married 13 years ago and my mother-in-law told us it doesn’t matter how much money you make if you spend all of it right? So knowing how to spend and how to save is by far the best piece of advice. It doesn’t matter if you make six figures if you’re, you’re spending all of it, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Lee T (12:46): Hi, my name is Lee Tacliad. I’m a manager of alumni and employer engagement at Scripps Research and what I wish I knew about money earlier was the magical effect of compound interest.

MaKenna C (13:00): Hi, I’m MaKenna Cealie. I am a graduate student at the University of Rochester. What do I wish I had known about money earlier in my career. So I had some great advice about learning to save and invest, but I think sometimes I took that too far. So I think it would also be important to kinda spend your money too as sometimes and enjoy your life. I read this great book Die With Zero and I think that was very helpful for me.

Dan E (13:26): Hi there. My name’s Dan Emmans. I am senior coordinator for student development and engagement at Harvard Medical School. Early on, get into the habit of putting 20% away and you’ll never go wrong.

Tamar G-C (13:36): Hi, I am Tamar Gaffin-Cahn. I’m the assistant director for graduate students at the Career Development Center at Emerson College. And one thing I wish I had known about money earlier in my career is put money away. Invest really early on, even if it’s just 20 bucks a month, invest early ’cause it will grow. I would also say to diversify where you’re investing and there are lots of opportunities of how to invest in uh, that’s connected to your values as well. So there are opportunities to invest in green energy, invest in programs that are good for the environment and good technology and things like that so it your money isn’t going to corporations that do harm to this world.

Bryan M (14:12): Hi, my name is Bryan McGrath. I do employer engagement over at Harvard Medical School. What do I wish? I had known about money earlier in my career that credit cards accrue interests and you should be paying more than the minimum each time.

Linda L (14:24): My name is Linda Louie. I work at the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab and I wish that earlier in my career I had known that retirement was a thing you needed to plan for <laugh>.

Jessica R (14:35): My name’s Jessica Roman, I’m the Assistant director of Graduate career Services at Stony Brook University and something I wish I would’ve known about money earlier in my career is how private loans and their interest works because I thought it was like public loans where you have the same principal and then I graduated and I got the bill and it was very shocking and I’m still paying that off, so I wish I would’ve known how that works so I would’ve made payments while in college.

Breanna G (15:06): My name’s Breanna Gallagher and I am a career coordinator at Oklahoma State University and what I wish I would’ve known about money earlier in my career is literally just the lingo of all of the money talk, being able to understand my benefits, being able to understand 401ks and medical insurance and being able to just understand what I was reading and signing, especially in a really tight window when you’re required to do your benefits in like 24 hours.

Aimzhan I (15:39): My name is, Aimzhan Iztayeva. I work as a program associate at the graduate School of the University of Minnesota. What I wish I had known about money earlier in my career is how investment works and also how taxes work with regard to money that you gain through investment.

Natalie C (15:56): My name is Natalie Chernets, I’m director of postdoctoral affairs and professional development at Drexel University. What I wish I knew about money early on is that higher education doesn’t necessarily mean more money in your salary, especially if you are an immigrant coming from another country. There are other barriers you have to think through to earn that salary.

Rowena W (16:14): Hi, I’m Dr. Rowena Winkler. I work for the University of Maryland, Baltimore County or UMBC in their career center as the assistant director for graduate student career development. So what I wish I had known about money earlier in my career is, especially as a graduate student, I, I’m an immigrant child, so my parents came here from the Philippines and I didn’t really know good personal finance and money management practices. I wish I had taken out loans or looked for more scholarships because as a graduate student in particular, I went into a lot of credit card debt just trying to finance my way through school. And so I wish I had known more about personal finance resources or funding options as a graduate student.

Mearah Q-B (16:56): My name is Mearah Quinn-Brauner. I work at Northwestern University. I wish I had known that sometimes it’s a good idea to spend money in order to have more money later in your life. When I was in graduate school, my mom tried to convince me to buy a house and I thought that that was insane. It was a crazy idea given how much money I had at the time, but it would’ve been worth figuring out so that I would have a house in Philadelphia now.

Diane S (17:24): Hi, my name is Diane Safer. I’m the director of career and Professional Development at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine where I work with PhDs and postdocs. I wish I would’ve taken the advice that I give to my students and postdocs right now and really negotiated for higher salaries and higher starting salaries right when I got the job because you can never really make it up once you’ve started a job and you’ve lost all your negotiating power once you’re in.

Mallory F-L (17:49): Hi, my name’s Mallory Fix-Lopez. I’m with Language ConnectED. I wish I would’ve known to charge for my work earlier in my career. I’ve done a lot of work for free <laugh>.

Emily S (17:59): So my name is Emily Sferra. I am the coordinator for career and Professional Development at the University of Michigan Medical School. If given the option to contribute to a retirement account you should contribute to a retirement account.

David B (18:19): Hi, I’m David Blancha. I’m a program manager at the OCPD at University of San Francisco. The thing that I wish I had known about money earlier, especially when I was a graduate student, is that when I was doing all of the math on my finances and what I might like need to live while I was in graduate school, all of those numbers would be wrong. Eight years later when I graduated I had no, I, no sense of adjusting for inflation or markets changing or anything like that. So I assumed the math I had done to live in a one bedroom apartment <laugh> in New York in 2015 is what I was going to need in 2022 and that’s absolutely not, not right. <laugh>.

Commercial

Emily (19:09): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2024-2025 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Orientations or very close to the start of the academic year would be a perfect time for tax education or general personal finance content. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

What Do You Wish You Had Known About Money Earlier In Your Career?

Alexis B (20:37): My name’s Alexis Boyer. I’m assistant director of Graduate student career services at MIT. And I wish I had known the difference between a 1099 and a W2 and I wish that I had known that the skills that I was developing were worthy of being paid.

RC S (20:54): RC Stabile, uh, Vanderbilt University, director of trainee engagement and wellbeing. I wish I knew about investing, putting money in target date index funds and I wish I knew about high yield savings accounts earlier.

John M (21:10): Hi, my name’s John Miles. I’m the Chief Executive officer of Inkpath, uh, the professional development platform. I wish earlier that I had known that by spending my time working on Shakespeare and taking a very academic direction that I wasn’t counting myself out of decent salaries later on that I should be confident that time will reward you and, uh, you can indulge those academic perspectives, uh, without feeling like you are narrowing down your options for the future.

Zarna P (21:42): Hi, I’m Zarna Pala. I am the assistant director of the Biological Sciences graduate program at the University of Maryland. And I wish I knew, uh, more about investment and investing money in the right direction or any sort of like small investments which I, which I could have started early on, uh, as a graduate student, as a postdoc fellow, that would’ve been really helpful.

Anne-Charlotte M (22:08): Hi, I’m Anne-Charlotte Mecklenburg. I am the postdoctoral associate for academic support at the University of Maryland College Park. And I think something that I wish that I knew about money earlier in my career was just all of the different ways of like saving money and organizing money that I would need later in my career as a graduate student it was kind of like, okay, I have a stipend and it covers all my living expenses and I can’t really do anything else with it, so I just spend it until I don’t have it anymore. And now that I’m sort of moving into more of a mid-career moment, it’s like, oh, I have a retirement account through my university and I don’t really know how that works. All that kind of stuff that I feel like in other careers people kind of learn that kind of stuff closer to right af out of college. It’s something that now feels like a little bit delayed for me and now I feel like I’m a little bit behind. So something I wish I was thinking about before I needed it so that I’d be ready when I did need it.

Amy A (23:00): I’m Amy Aines and I’m with Championing Science. What I would’ve loved to have known more about is how to invest. I think I was conservative and I was okay with a 401k with someone else thinking about it, but it would’ve been nice to know for myself what that was about and how I could take advantage of the opportunity.

Gina D (23:18): Gina Delgado, director of doctoral and post-doctoral life design and what I wish I’d known earlier about money in general is not just knowing about money but not being afraid of being broke because I’m not afraid of being broke.

Beka L (23:32): This is Beka Layton. I am the director of professional development at UNC Chapel Hill and thinking back to when I was a graduate student, I think benefits life insurance 401ks and kind of how to balance life expenses with long-term goals and budgeting. I think that whole like black box of like, I don’t know any of those things was mystifying to me. So things I learned by accident along the way and wish I knew then.

Aurora W (24:02): I’m Aurora Washington. I am currently a postdoctoral research fellow at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. And something that I wish I knew about finance when I was a graduate student is how to budget a little bit better and to manage my expectations because I’m a postdoc, postdoc don’t get paid well and so I wish I knew a little bit more about benefits in negotiating in Texas.

Sam R (24:29): Hi, um, this is Sam Ramosevac, I’m director, um, at the office of Postdoctoral and Mentor trainee program at Emory University. Uh, I wish I actually negotiated my salary and I think it’s really important at least to attempt to negotiate and get more money for the level of experience you have and you know, just at least to try.

Ian K (24:57): I’m Ian Krout. I am a postdoctoral fellow at Emory University. For me, being a postdoc, I went on a training grant and realized that I was losing some benefits that I had gotten as being an employee at the university. And so I actually began to ask questions to both my PI and the postdoctoral office about if this needed to be the case and if there was any way to get benefits and advocating for myself was enough to get those benefits brought back through a workaround at the university, which was really positive for my experience and helped me to still be able to save for retirement and not pay into my health insurance myself.

Jessica T (25:35): My name is Jessica Taylor. I’m a research fellow at ACLS and I wish I had known when I was a graduate student that you’re supposed to tip in hotels.

Natalia (25:44): My name is Natalia, I work for the University of Pittsburgh as a career advisor. Yeah, and I wish I, I had known that money would be able to buy me freedom of choice.

Autumn A (25:55): Well, my name is Autumn Anthony. I manage the office for graduate student assistantships and fellowships at GW. I think it would’ve been really important for me to realize earlier that if you are looking to make more money, then you have to go to the organizations that actually have more money <laugh> and that when you are committed to the work that you’re doing and working hard and looking for opportunities to succeed in your work, just because of your commitment and just because of your hard work doesn’t mean you’re going to make more money. So you have to go where the money is.

Jessica V (26:33): My name is Jessica Vélez. I am the membership engagement and early career programs manager for the Genetic Society of America. And I definitely wish I had known that I do actually make more money than I think I do. And by creating a budget, that’s how I learned that I made more money than I thought I did and I signed up for a budgeting app at some point in my graduate career. Because of that, when I finished my PhD, I wasn’t able to immediately get a job, but I had enough money saved up from the budgeting I had done on a graduate school stipend to survive for two or three months without having to worry about unemployment because you can’t apply for unemployment as a graduate student <laugh>. So that was extremely beneficial and I’m glad that I finally learned that, but I wish I had learned that earlier for sure.

Melissa B (27:20): This is Melissa Bostrom. I’m assistant Dean for Graduate Student Professional Development at Duke University and I wish I would’ve known that investing for retirement didn’t have to be perfect. It didn’t have to be the best. I just had to get started with a small amount on a regular basis.

Chris S (27:35): Okay, my name is Chris Smith. I manage the Office of Postdoc Affairs at Virginia Tech. The importance of investing in special retirement vehicles, whether that be a Roth IRA or traditional IRA that have different benefits in terms of tax purposes, whether you pay them now or later. And it might be real benefit when you’re in your lower paying years to be in investing in or Roth where you’re paying the taxes now and then when you eventually retire, you don’t know taxes on that and all the compounding that happens over those 30 plus years of your career.

Jason H (28:06): I’m Jason Heustis, assistant Dean for Student Development Evaluation at Harvard Medical School. I’d say one of the things that would’ve been helpful to know in graduate school, similar decisions you’d make when you start getting a real paycheck, things like allocations for insurances, the different types of saving options, that type of thing would’ve been helpful for me to know earlier, right? Or to be prepared for those decisions so that I can do as much research at the time. That would’ve been helpful.

Anne X (28:30): Hi, my name is Anne Xiong. I’m from UC Berkeley Center for Financial Wellness. I wish I know that no matter how much money you have, you can start investing early.

Kelli W (28:41): I’m Kelli Wright from Wayne State University. I’m the financial wellness advisor there. I’ve been there since March of 2023. I’m an accounting background, so I’m really excited about this space and what I wish I would’ve known is the importance of saving, creating that healthy habit, of saving even $10 a month just where I would be at financially if I would’ve known that.

Charah C (29:07): Yes, my name is Charah Coleman. I work for University of California Merced, and I am the Financial Wellness Center program manager on that campus. I would say the time value of money. I don’t have any regrets with how I spent my money in my undergrad or even early grad school, but I wish I really would’ve invested earlier and given myself a leg up a lot earlier. Now I definitely have to invest a lot more aggressively and I have to cut a lot more expenses now than when I was starting off in my career. I, I definitely think having that awareness of the time value of money being aggressive at the front end, I think would’ve behoove me a lot better.

Beth H (29:49): Beth Hunsaker, MS. Uh, associate Director, financial Wellness Center, university of Utah. After my graduate work, I did take some time off to have kids and although that was a wonderful chapter of my life, I really wish I would’ve taken time to keep my network strong, to keep working on my skills because when it was time to come back for my career, which has to do with money, it was a little harder for that on ramping. And I think that there is a way to balance and do both, and I wish I would’ve focused a little more on that.

Roland K (30:27): Roland Keller Jr associate director of financial aid at Tulane University in New Orleans, Louisiana. One thing that I wish I would’ve known about a little sooner is the importance of credit. Credit is very important. It literally is life or death. So I would’ve wished I would’ve been more educated about credit

Darrel S (30:45): Darrel Stufflebeam, uh, a doctor in education from KU and I’m the new assistant director for Jayhawk Finances at ku. Uh, I wish I’d have known about the importance of starting early and compound interest and I did not have a financial background and my parents didn’t really have advice. So if I would’ve started a little earlier then I’d be much happier now, but I’m just spreading the word as part of my current job.

Khalilah L (31:12): My name is Dr. Khalilah Lauderdale. I am the Associate Athletic Director for student services at the University of Southern California. And earlier in my career, I wish I had known, um, concerning money more about how to buy a home. I was very green in our process and very reliant on my realtor resources, so that would’ve been helpful.

Nafisah G-B (31:35): My name is Nafisah Graham-Brown. I am a program administrator of a financial coaching program at SUNY WCC, that’s Westchester Community College. What I wish I had known about money earlier in my career was the value of retirement savings. Uh, unfortunately I was in a job where we were discouraged from taking part in the pension and retirement program mainly because the people that were talking to us also didn’t have much information or knowledge. So I guess the value of it wasn’t seen by most of us. And I guess the lesson is make sure you’re getting your information from someone who knows.

Aly B (32:13): My name is Aly Blakeney. I am an instructor of economics at Phillips Academy Andover. What I wish I had known about money earlier was honestly how important it is to talk with any significant other. If you have like a very serious prospect with them to talk with them and be like, Hey, where are we at in terms of money and debt? I think that will cause stress quicker than anything. And setting yourself up for future means also taking care of your financial wellness via your emotional intimacy wellness as well.

Tony F (32:45): My name is Tony Froelich. I am the financial literacy coordinator at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga. What I wish I’d known earlier in my career about money is the power of investing in yourself. I always thought of saving as taking what was left after the month and that was my savings. So whether that was $10 or negative $50, pulling outta my savings account, but learning the lesson of taking that savings out of my paycheck first and putting that away and then spending the rest has been life changing.

Zach T (33:19): Yes, Zach Taylor, assistant professor at the University of Southern Mississippi, and what I wish I had known about money earlier in my career is saving it earlier in my career would facilitate a lot more time and that as I’ve gotten older, time is money and I’m now realizing how much more time money can buy you. And that has become so important as my parents have aged and as I have continued in my career where I feel like I have enough money now, but I don’t have the time, but if I had more money, I know I would have more time. So I think the relationship between time and money is what I wish I had known earlier in my career.

Lyndsi B (34:04): I am Lyndsi Burcham. I am the financial Wellness Program manager at the University of Pennsylvania. I think what I wish I had known about money earlier in my career isn’t even necessarily about money. It’s the fact that like you don’t have to make one decision and have it be the right decision for the rest of your life. Like you can make changes at any point along the way. And I think a lot of times when we’re having conversations about money with students, they’re so caught up in the fact that they have to do the right thing first. And oftentimes there is no right thing. And even if there is a right thing, it’s gonna change depending on your life circumstances. There’s a lot I could say about tactical information about like what is a credit score versus a credit report and, and knowing those kinds of things, but like the psychological component of it, which is you are allowed to fail and like you can recover from failure. I, I don’t think we talk about that enough and instead we instill fear in students that they have to do things the best way.

Peter B (34:59): Hi, I am Peter Bye. I am a doctor of music student at Indiana University and what I wish I had known about money earlier in my career is that sometimes it works out well and sometimes it doesn’t work out well and you kind of gotta roll with the punches and make adjustments constantly. It’s never something you figure out. You can’t solve it unless you’re like super rich, but you can make changes and slowly affect your, your situation hopefully in a positive way. Uh, so you kind of just have to roll with the punches until you hopefully get to the place you wanna get to.

Outtro

Emily (35:41): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This International Graduate Student Grew His Career and Social Wealth Alongside His Net Worth

June 17, 2024 by Jill Hoffman

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Cyrus Liu, a postdoctoral fellow in computer science at Grinnell College. Cyrus came to the US from China as a graduate student without any knowledge of how the US financial system works. Over the course of his PhD, Cyrus found ways to minimize his expenses and increase his income so that he could meet his goal of investing $500 per month into a Roth IRA and a taxable brokerage account. He also invested in his physical and mental health and grew his career and social wealth in a frugal manner. Cyrus ends the interview with incredible insights into why he was motivated to work on his finances during graduate school and in what ways academics are truly wealthy.

Links mentioned in the Episode

How This International Graduate Student Grew His Career and Social Wealth Alongside His Net Worth

Teaser

Cyrus (00:00): Don’t underestimate yourself because you are a PhD student and you definitely have the knowledge base and then sharing those knowledge with the community, and you are passing to the knowledge. This is the wealth we possess, right? Normally people think we are poor, but actually, and a wider definition of the wealth here we have this part to share with someone else.

Introduction

Emily (00:33): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:01): This is Season 18, Episode 2, and today my guest is Dr. Cyrus Liu, a postdoctoral fellow in computer science at Grinnell College. Cyrus came to the US from China as a graduate student without any knowledge of how the US financial system works. Over the course of his PhD, Cyrus found ways to minimize his expenses and increase his income so that he could meet his goal of investing $500 per month into a Roth IRA and a taxable brokerage account. He also invested in his physical and mental health and grew his career and social wealth in a frugal manner. Cyrus ends the interview with incredible insights into why he was motivated to work on his finances during graduate school and in what ways academics are truly wealthy.

Emily (01:45): I’m offering a new slate of workshops for my university clients this fall, and over the summer I’m practicing delivering these workshops for free to a limited number of graduate students and postdocs on the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list. Last month, we did “Seven Steps to Start Investing as a Graduate Student or Postdoc,” and later in the summer we’ll do “Your Financial Orientation to Graduate School” and “Tax Season Preparation Starts Now for Graduate Students” and possibly more. If you’re not currently on my mailing list but want to receive notice about the upcoming pilot sessions once they are scheduled, please join now! The best way to get on the mailing list as a podcast listener is to sign up through PFforPhDs.com/advice/; you’ll receive a document that summarizes all of my interviewees’ responses regarding their best financial advice. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s18e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Cyrus Liu.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:56): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Cyrus Liu. He’s currently a postdoctoral fellow in computer science at Grinnell College, and we are going to be talking about his fascinating financial journey, um, as a graduate student and now a postdoc in the US as an international student. And so, Cyrus, I’m so happy that you’ve decided to join me on the podcast today, and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

Cyrus (03:19): Yes. Hi, Emily. Thank you for having me here. So I graduated in December, 2022 from computer science degree. Um, after that I landed this, uh, postdoc, um, fellow in computer science. And the current position, I’m do- mostly doing research in the area of programming languages and security.

Money Mindset After Arriving in the US

Emily (03:45): Excellent. So let’s go kind of all the way back to when you first arrived in the US. I assume that was at the start of graduate school, but you can correct me if that’s wrong. Um, tell me like about what your money mindset was at that point and how, if at all, how familiar you were with the US financial system.

Cyrus (04:01): Also, this is my first time before I come to US. It’s actually, I’ve never been to us before my PhD and I’m from China, so I grew up in a poor family, in fact, there. So with that in mind that I’m kind of sort of inherently frugal. But what’s interesting is back then, like I never feel poor in terms of any financials. In general, I have no idea about in credit card scores, uh, credit cards and investing or retirement. And, and that’s later on. I discovered after I entered the US that I do have, uh, a saving and spending mindfully and because how my parents raised me. Right.

Grad School Stipend vs. Local Cost of Living

Emily (04:50): I see. And so when you arrived for, um, graduate school here, can you tell me about, um, what your stipend was and how that struck you, maybe versus like the local cost of living?

Cyrus (05:02): I was living in Hoboken for, um, two years and a half, and also Stevens Institute with the university. I finished my PhD is located in this really beautiful city and it, it is, the local cost is like 60% higher than the national average. I would just say and put in the number that means like I think if you got two bedroom apartments that you might need to spend, um, at least 1700 for one bedroom, that means you need a a roommate. And back then the stipends, uh, I would say it’s like a 28 thousandish and it’s roughly, I remember we got paid like a biweekly, it’s like 2000 a hundred per month after tax.

Increasing Income During Grad School

Emily (05:55): Okay. Well, I really wanna dig into this, uh, with that, you know, relatively expensive cost of living and the relatively low stipend. Um, and the listeners don’t know yet, but this is a financial success story that we’re about to talk about <laugh>. So we’re gonna see how, you know, I wanted to see that starting point and now let’s see how you got to the end point that you got to. Um, so let’s kind of break this down, um, systematically. So during the course of your time in graduate school, how did you, what did you do to increase your income?

Cyrus (06:24): Yeah, so there are a couple things. Um, like I said that before I entering, uh, US, I have, I really have no idea what’s the, uh, um, investment, investment investing or credit cards, and that’s a totally different systems, but I do have a mindset that I need to save, right? And it is how I grew up. Um, but it’s not too much. So most of the case, um, I start to reaching out, um, all the resources I can, I, I think I start with reading the book first and then also I love reading. And then the first book I get to know is basically, uh, it is called I Will Teach Rich by the Ramit. And, and he, he actually kind of introduced me to the whole US financial system from credit card, from the, uh, uh, Roth IRA and then how you would you, uh, increase, uh, your finance and manage your, your spending habits and to how would you invest if you have extra money, even though if you don’t have extra money, just put maybe one, uh, 100 or $50 you can squeeze out. Just experience how things work. Uh, at the beginning it was a little bit overwhelming, but I, I enjoyed read his book. I I think this is also helps me to manage my life, uh, here in a completely, uh, foreign nation. Right?

Emily (08:04): Yeah, that’s a wonderful first book to get started with. I will teach you to be rich by Ramit Sethi. Um, yeah, great, great introduction. He’s very firm about how to tell if someone, someone, you know, an institution is trying to take advantage of you. Like he’s really helping you, like recognize that and push back against it. So I can definitely see how that would be useful when you’re entering a new system, um, entirely. So awesome recommendation, you started there, you read that book,

Cyrus (08:28): And then I start to act <laugh>.

Emily (08:31): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Cyrus (08:31): And then I open the credit card and then I, I, I take the, the same strategy that I recommended by the, by the book. It, it’s not promotion for the book, but it’s more like, I think around nothing to think of that it is really like you try to minimize all the possible interest, right? Rates I would have and then, or a lot of promotions provided by the credit card and then try to take advantage of that because now we think about that credit cards more like the more you expense and then the more you can potentially save and also they encourage you to spend. So, but I personally very mindful with my expense, but the same times I think they do, credit cards do offer a lot of discounts in terms of purchasing. So that’s the first step.

Emily (09:24): So are you saying that you pursued credit card rewards, like points and cash back and stuff after? Of course, you initially need to establish credit and get started there.

Cyrus (09:32): Yes, exactly.

Emily (09:32): But is that where this led eventually?

Cyrus (09:34): The, the signing bonus and also the cashback reward, that’s also something new to me that I never did, uh, touch before. And then also we do have, uh, I think the first one is the discovery. I think most of international students would get to discovery first because we don’t have any, uh, credit score history here. And so they also have these online stores that will give you 10% or 5% discount. And then when I go out to buy clothes in, or I was living in New York City area, so there’s a lot of department store that can use with this discount opportunities.

Emily (10:16): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. Okay. So both increasing income through credit card, um, bonuses and cash back and so forth. Also finding a way to be even more frugal in saving certain percent, percentages on the purchases that you do make.

Cyrus (10:28): After that, um, uh, I started to opening a investment account that was also a little bit struggling because I, first of all, as an international student, I do not know if I was allowed to do that. So I, that’s kind of for research myself. But in the end, after like, um, as long as we are considering as a tax payer resident, and then, so you should have the same opportunity to open all those investment account. And then I, I remembered I started with, uh, uh, 500 ish, um, over the month for the first month. So I just put, I think I, I, I was not expecting to gain anything. I just, uh, put 500 to get to understanding, uh, how the investments work and buying individual stocks. And I think I bought, that was 2018. I bought a Tesla <laugh> because I really like, uh, Elon Musk.

Cyrus (11:30): Um, but that was another story. It was really funny. And so that’s one part. And then, uh, after that, uh, I get to know the, Roth IRA and then the retirement account. Um, it’s also be, uh, I, I get to understand how the tax work here and then the tax deferred account. And I think that’s whether in long term if, uh, I am staying here or not. I, for me, it’s like, I think it’s, uh, uh, beneficial to open this account as soon as possible because I do pay a lot of taxes. I mean, it’s, uh, in terms of graduate students. Uh, so I think, uh, that’s one way you should take benefit of that. And then I did that, but um, although I didn’t have much money to put on that, and then, uh, in the end, I would, my, my goal was, uh, try to save like, uh, 500 and put into other way to the Roth IRA or the personal, um, uh, investment brokerage and yeah. But this all comes with the risk. So with the mind that you, the money you put in, in the investment account, like it’s possible to lose all of them. Right. But I was fine with that.

Contributing to a Retirement Account as an International Student

Emily (12:47): Couple things there, uh, because I get so many questions from international students and postdocs, um, yeah, maybe they know, they, you know, in theory could contribute money to a Roth ira for example. They, they understand the eligibility, but they’re more questioning like, is this a good idea? And it sounds like you came down on Yep. As soon as possible, whether I end up in the US long term or not, this is a good idea. Can you tell us a little bit more about that thought process and how you made that decision?

Cyrus (13:15): Uh, I think that this decision is very personal for me. Um, because that, that’s all really depends, um, where you going to stay, where are you going to retire in, in the future, right? Um, for me, I didn’t really think that too long. Um, I can in, in the long run, I, I prefer this. I might not stay in United States. Uh, but, uh, I, but uh, for me, you, you got to understand what, what, what’s your, uh, long-term goal. Uh, if you are not going to come back to us at all, or even this is the case, but it is still helpful that because, uh, you are kind of tax deferred assuming you grow your money over there, right? Um, and it just take some penalties if you break the, the rules that you’re taking out the money before your retirement age. But if you can stand with that, it is nothing comparing that if you in your future that you might want to settle down in US or you go want you coming back in us in a later life, it, it, it, it can benefit you a lot, but without risk balance you got assessment, what’s your goal, it is. And then for me, I would like to take that even though maybe a few years I have to, uh, uh, leave or, or for, or I have to withdraw the money, but I need to take a 20% or I don’t know exactly number the penalty for that.

Emily (14:53): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, yeah, if I’m remembering correctly, it’s, I think it’s only 10% and it’s only on the gains. And if we’re talking about the Roth IRA, right, because you can withdraw the contribution. So it’s, as you said, you know, there’s a, um, a, a risk there in a sense. Okay, well maybe I will need to remove this money early for some reason. Well, this is the penalty. Am I willing to accept that? Do you know, I’m, and the penalty again, is only on the growth. So it’s only if, yeah, if there things have actually gone well with that investment account, um, in the intervening years. So thank you for giving us a little bit more insight there.

Investing as a Graduate Student

Emily (15:24): And then I also wanted to ask about the taxable brokerage account. Um, you mentioned you bought Tesla. Yeah. Were you, um, cashing out, like making trades and actually taking income from this money over the years? Or is it more been like just sitting there for like, for the long term and you’re not taking income from it?

Cyrus (15:40): So for me, it’s more like a, um, a personal habit. Like, um, uh, I do, I don’t, I didn’t, I did not have much money to invest, and I think I was just bought two or three, few five shares of Tesla, but in 2018, and, but after that, Tesla was like a, like a high rocket, and I do, I did sold a couple share, but those number I really like comparing it, it’s not much. And so no, it, it, it’s more like, uh, a habit. That one is a habit. The another one is I, I did not really have much extra money to invest in this account.

Emily (16:24): Yeah. And I, you said the number of $500 earlier, was that your, was it your goal to invest $500 per month or is that over a different period of time?

Cyrus (16:32): Uh, yeah, I was, uh, uh, a month.

Minimizing Expenses as a Graduate Student

Emily (16:34): Let’s talk about keeping a lid on expenses or decreasing expenses then, because we’ve already heard that the cost of living is very challenging on your grad student stipend. So you already mentioned having multiple roommates. I think you said you were sharing a bedroom, right? So like maybe four people in a two bedroom apartment, is that right?

Cyrus (16:49): Um, um, no, that, that was like, uh, we do have five bedrooms in, uh, a big house, but we, we have our own bedroom. But the things like, uh, in that case we did cutting down a lot of expenses. We share everything.

Emily (17:05): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. Okay. So kind of the, the frugal tip there is like larger residents, more roommates, more people to split everything among, right?

Cyrus (17:15): Yeah. Not many PhD students actually live in Hoboken. I was lucky to find this place. Uh, but the same times, like I personally, I don’t think roommates are bad. And because I, I get a chance to know different people and, uh, in my case, uh, there’s a, a little, uh, uh, that, but I can stand with because we do sharing, uh, things, uh, and then sometimes can getting busy, but most of the case are fine with that. So we, I have four other roommates, but they are working in a different area. So basically we would have a different schedule. So in this case, uh, it’s doable and especially, uh, given the resources I have, I don’t commute that much. And then I enjoy in the on campus resource, I like to do it to gym. So it’s like a 10 minutes away from my, uh, my, my lab and then also the, to the gym. So the, I spend most of the time in the lab. And then after that, I go to the gym really just, uh, over the night, come back. And then sometimes we have the good parties, you have roommates, and you can have some little party on the weekends and watch a movie together. That was pretty nice.

Emily (18:30): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I actually really like the setup of a single family home that’s shared among multiple different, multiple, you know, people at their own bedrooms. I feel like that’s a pretty, in most areas of the country, that’s a pretty economical way to live if that type of housing is available to you as opposed to like the apartments or, you know, the townhouses or whatever. Yeah. Um, yeah. So what other ways did you find to decrease or minimize your expenses?

Cyrus (18:55): So at the same time, um, we, we do have, uh, uh, so I try to, uh, take a break from my research sometimes. And another way is like, um, travel. When, when it comes to travel, um, I prefer to go with my friends or in a group, and in, in generally I do meal prep. I do, uh, regularly do, uh, exercise and eat healthy. Um, the meal prep myself, it’s also cost less. So I think it is a, it is beneficial in two ways. Um, also in long run, I do value work workout regularly and keep your mental health checked. This would’ve, uh, stopped me going to hospital that often. Like I remember when the seasoning transitions during the transition seasonings and you catch flu isn’t sometimes it’s not just going to the hospital suffering. It’s more like you take at least one week to recover and then you get behind with my research and then that kind of padding up. It’s a lot of stress. So I, I, I wouldn’t, so I, I realized that like, and I, the good way is like take, do more exercise and then to, to keep your immune system robust, <laugh> against that. Um, another thing is like, it, it’s very funny, like when we pay in taxes, right? We, we considering as a, a tax resident. And, uh, but at the same time, I really appreciate my student id. I was living in New York City area and then using student id, you got a lot of free, uh, tickets and also discount tickets to the art gallery and museums and, and gardens. So although I, I, I was, uh, frugal, but I didn’t miss out any fun things over there. I, I still go to museums, gardens, and sometimes, uh, uh, uh, meetups and, and, and local, uh, parties. I, I was, was really fun. And it didn’t really cost you much.

Emily (21:10): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So your entertainment was also satisfactory to you, but you found a way to do it in a frugal manner.

Cyrus (21:16): Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (21:18): Anything else on your list of, of expenses that you managed to minimize?

Cyrus (21:22): I don’t drive, right? So it is also, I was living in the city. It’s really, uh, so those expenses not really, uh, a thing for me. I personally, I do not really purchase too much clothing for me. I’m very minimal. Like, uh, as long I have, uh, uh, a clean fit clothing, that’s enough for me. And for shoes, like, uh, I don’t like to switch too much, and also maybe I have two or three, two, uh, three pair of shoes that one for winter and one or two I can switch during the summer or something like that. So, uh, wearing the things like to the, to the most, um, I think this is preco- probably also because the way that I, how I raised that I am fine with that. And I think that’s kind of, uh, one part, uh, that can cut off the cost in my case.

Emily (22:26): Yeah, definitely.

Commercial

Emily (22:29): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2024-2025 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Orientations or very close to the start of the academic year would be a perfect time for tax education or general personal finance content. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Increasing Social Wealth

Emily (23:56): Is there anything else that you would like to add about overall how you increased your net worth during graduate school? We talked about investing in the Roth, IRA and also in the taxable brokerage account. Anything else in that category?

Cyrus (24:09): Uh, I think one thing that is more intangible, the the wealth and the finance that, uh, the, it is kind of the, the social wealth, the, which I, I, I, I was not really proud of that, um, and try to, uh, take advantage of the local resources, right? And then I was lucky to live in New York City area, and then that’s, and also Hoboken locally and is very nice community, but I think no matter where you live, the local community more often, have more resources that you can imagine and you might not be aware, just try to reach out. And for example, I was attending almost like every weekend I go out and then join the meetup and conference, and most of, of the time they provide you these free meals, lunch or dinner, and then it, it, it’s a, it’s a nice way you can social and also you don’t need to cook your meal yourself. So these things are very subtle and the same things happening on campus that, um, in, in your department, uh, no matter which major you are, um, try to join the, uh, the, if you have any habit, right, join the club and then your peers, and those are most likely have this, uh, social events that can help you, uh, to reduce sometimes if you don’t want to cook or for breakfast meal. And then those are all great ways to, to do

Emily (25:59): Classic grad student strategy. Um, but I like that your focus here and kind of your spin on it is both like, yeah, you can get some free meals from time to time, but also you get, you get your entertainment and your social interaction. Um, and so it fills your, your calendar and helps you again with your work life balance and your wellness overall. And I like that you mentioned not just doing this on campus, but in the community too. And the thing is that if people are putting on events and they’re giving food and all those things, they really want you there. They really want people to come. So like you’re also, you know, you’re contributing to their community as well.

Cyrus (26:32): Yeah. Yeah. I, I think, um, one of the things not just about the meals, and another thing is about the, the, the social wealth. I would say it’s all, uh, it’s also the concept I learned from the books that, uh, it’s more how would you connect to the people? And then that was, uh, kind of potentially, and the connection may or may not be lead you to in the future when you are in the job market, you could have used these connections, but, uh, I wouldn’t say put this in more like a transactional way, but you should try genuinely more just enjoying the life. But at the same times, you might not realize by doing that, you kind of gain the social wealth.

Freedom as the Ultimate Goal

Emily (27:20): You were obviously putting in a lot of effort with your finances, right? All the things we went through, ways that you keep your lifestyle to a minimum ways you figured out how to increase your income, you know, self-education, and then that turned into more investing and so forth. Um, why, why weren’t you just satisfied with getting by day to day and saving all of that for after you finish graduate school?

Cyrus (27:45): I, I think that’s awesome. One role of the reason is due to my personality, I guess. Um, I think the, the ultimate goal is the freedom to achieve the freedom and to be confident. W- with the any decisions I’m going to make. So I would like to, we are talking about freedom and confidence. It’s more like in the sense that I was, I can make decisions based on my own personal demand, not really subject to any resources surrounding me, right? Like, like I said, like before I entering us, I never felt I’m, I’m poor <laugh> because I don’t really have, have much need and I was spending most of my life and time with school. And then after you explore the world, I have this dream, and then now the time’s moving on, and then I start to realize that I really, it’s not what you think, like ideas are great, but you have these obstacles that related to this, uh, money topic, and then you actually making decisions based on what the resources are available for you. So the final goal, then I would start to thinking like, yeah, this comes so natural, you save more, but saving is just one of those strategies. So, and then that’s why I end up start to find out the other opportunities and yeah. So I, I would say the ultimate goal is to be freedom.

Emily (29:30): Do you feel like, you know, you are, I don’t know, five, six or so years into this now, um, do you feel like you’ve attained that to a degree? Obviously you’re not, maybe, you know, complete financial independence is still, still some time away, but, um, I guess I’m, I’m wondering about, yeah, like does it feel like you are a percentage ways, like towards that at this point?

Cyrus (29:53): Uh, in terms of the net worth, obvious, No, that is a far away, but I think in terms of mindset and the knowledge, and then I am preparing myself and then I’m being mindful with my personal life. It’s called personal finance, right? And then you, I i, I was now I’m able to figuring out in the big picture and then what’s the come in flow, what’s the outflow? And I’m, I’m very mindful of that. And then in the end, it, it’s really also, it’s another pro- a question for myself. Do I really want to be retired early or not, or, so the, the, the, the freedom for me is in a more, in a wider definition that it’s more about the resource management and the organize myself, and it, it, it, it includes material and, but also my mind. I think this kind of, uh, uh, knowledge and skills over these past five to six years that I develop, it’s very helpful. Um, in the long term. I, I think if I stick to that and then keep this growth mindset and in the future, the net worth is just a number, whether you choose retire 40 at 40 or 50 a a it is, can is this is the freedom that I, I’m talking about. I can decide, doesn’t matter if, if I have to work or not, right?

Emily (31:33): Absolutely. I love that. Thank you much for pointing that out. I similarly, I think I came to this similar kinds of reflections after I had finished graduate school, after I’d been on that path for a few years, like recognizing how, um, having not only some money in terms of the net worth, but also those mindsets and the habits and the skills and everything that it took to start down that path really afforded me more, uh, choices even at that relatively early stage, um, in life. So thank you so much for sharing that. Exactly.

Personal Finance Resources for Grad Students

Emily (32:07): Um, do you have any additional resources that you’d like to recommend, either to specifically the international graduate student population or maybe graduate students and postdocs more widely? I mean, your first recommendation, I will teach you to be rich by Ramit Sethi was an excellent one. Were there any other books or I don’t know, podcasts or YouTube channels or anything else that you, uh, that you felt was really helpful along the way?

Cyrus (32:27): Yeah, I think, um, so I, I think books are really, uh, good to start with. And in terms of which books you should read, uh, um, uh, I would recommend if you use Reddit, and that there’s a personal finance Reddit channel, uh, you can join that one. There’s a lot of resources about personal finance and what books you’re getting started. And if you like a podcast, and I think this one is very nice since, uh, at the beginning I, I couldn’t find much resources. That’s also how I get to know this podcast. And I was very excited that actually someone thanks to you <laugh>, um, so you, you, you can get, keep get informed to make a good decision, right? Um, and this, uh, this, this is, uh, complete within your reach if you want to do that. And then I would suggest you do that.

Cyrus (33:28): And in terms of, uh, um, tangible resources, be mindful for the, uh, reach out to your university resources. Like, um, especially I was using this, uh, psycho, uh, psychological services therapy and be open-minded. And for those like, um, we are PhD students, we are graduate students, and then it’s can definitely be very lonely. And then even you are in a relationship, so, and those resources are really just find somewhere to talk. And this I think is the part that can easily be ignored by the students, especially international students thinking I’m really, because I’m alien here and then I feel constrained. But actually, uh, uh, in us, you can definitely, especially in your university, you have a lot of resources, uh, uh, to help you out. And then when you graduated, and actually the careers, uh, service is also very helpful, but you need to know that and you need to reach out for yourself.

Cyrus (34:41): And in terms of local community, no matter where you live, try to find a city. And what I did is like get engaged with the locals and I like running and then I go to 5K races. So those are, you can, um, reach out without any cost, right? And also you can, uh, remain your, uh, healthy mind, mind, uh, mental health. So yeah, I, I think overall just be open-minded. We are living in this, uh, information liberal age is really, you don’t feel missing out, and then you have the access to other information you can figure out yourself. And what’s, one thing I, I learned is, um, what makes you, uh, anxious is mostly the things that you actually didn’t do right? And then if you act on it, it, it, it doesn’t matter how challenging the, the things itself, and then you will be fine. But sitting there <laugh> doing nothing, that that’s the big problem.

Emily (35:54): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, I’ve absolutely seen that in, I mean, it, it applies widely, but certainly in the case of finances, um, it’s better to just face it and engage. Yeah. And try something. Um, yeah, instead of, as you said, kind of avoiding or spending a long time in analysis paralysis, not sure which direction you should go, just try something. And you’ve tried a lot of things and I love that we got through all of that in this interview.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (36:16): Let’s wrap up with our last question that I ask all of my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

Cyrus (36:28): Yeah, so, um, I think everyone has a very unique experience, uh, in terms of giving. Otherwise, I would just say I wish what I have done or done more to in my PhD. Um, so one thing I think, like I mentioned couple times, um, value social wealth. And that means that, uh, try to, uh, go out and in, in your spare time, sometimes you might think you don’t have time, especially as a PhD student. And, but I tried, I have the similar mindset, uh, at a certain amount of time. But the thing is like you stick in the lab and the home, you might, you become less productive and then it might take more time than comparing that you just go out and do some activities and then come back with, uh, more energy and fresh mind. So this is the thing that I, I think I did, uh, less, uh, whether it, if you are in a relationship or not, it is the similar thing sometimes, like go out with friends and, and to the meetups and or more importantly, um, it’s also more, uh, career wise or professionally. Like we, we as a graduate student, we don’t really have money to give out, but the same, uh, idea applies. The more you give the, the, the, the, the better. So, but as a scholar, that means that volunteer to giving talks in the meetups, workshops, seminars in your neighboring institutions, I think, uh, don’t underestimate yourself because you are a PhD student and you definitely have the knowledge base and then sharing those knowledge with the community, and you are passing to the knowledge. This is the wealth we possess, right? Normally people think we are poor, but actually, um, a wider definition of the wealth here, we have this part to share with someone else. And then the same times you will get rewarding back, right? Because you, you go out and people get your idea, you get a chance to talk about your research, and the same times you build this genuine connections with the community, and in the future, this connections might help you to navigate your, your future career path.

Cyrus (38:58): So this is the thing that I, I think I missed out a lot also because we was in the covid times, and that’s really dark age. Um, on the other side, as I, I would like to share is I think what I did to contribute the success of my PhD is one thing is really be open-minded. I considering myself a very open-minded person, I, I, at the same time, very minimal for me. And then, but I do exercise more and then, and try new things at the beginning. All those investment accounts really scares me because every time I open the account, that’s a whole for legal documents I have to read. And I, as an international, I’m concerned that I fly-, am I breaking the law or something like that. But if, if you are looking into it and it’s really not that scary, right?

Cyrus (39:56): So I think, I think I, I stand with myself and then I, I try all those things. And then the, the, the, the idea is you need to realize that if you don’t do that, and it’s actually you are paying that, you are not doing that, right? Because the inflations and the interest rates, rates all the things that you have to, you kind of, everyone should open their investment account and, and, and do the investment and manage that to beat the, at least the inflation. So another thing I think I value, uh, more is the people itself, whether it be your significant others or friends. I do valuable value those things. Um, uh, that means that if, if there’s a chance I can spend more time with my friends, like, uh, we go out for a nice, a night, a fancy dinner. Sometimes we go out for, to New York, Manhattan to try different restaurants. I, I, I, I really not at that moment, I value more with the time with my friends. And even though the meal is expensive sometimes, I remember one time we spent almost a hundred each of us for one meal <laugh> was like, but I think that was really, uh, um, uh, valuable for me.

Emily (41:15): Yeah, so insightful. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. Thank you for this entire interview Cyrus, for volunteering to come on the podcast. Um, it’s been absolute pleasure to have you.

Cyrus (41:24): Thank you. And thank you for having me and it is great to sharing the stories with everyone. Thank you so much.

Outtro

Emily (41:41): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This Life Sciences PhD Fosters Entrepreneurship

June 3, 2024 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Marquicia Pierce, who holds a PhD in molecular physiology and biophysics from Vanderbilt University and an MBA from Northwood University. In the ten years since finishing her PhD, Marquicia has worked in various capacities to foster life science start-ups and small businesses, and she is now the owner and principal consultant for Ruby Leaf Media, a science communication company for people who want to turn their tech story into a business story. Marquicia recounts the courses and projects she pursued during graduate school that set her up for her post-PhD career and how she balanced her advisor and committee’s expectations with her career ambitions. She also details the multitude of government, academic, and private sector resources that are available to founders and inventors and the skills and mindsets that a PhD can bring to entrepreneurship.

Links mentioned in the Episode

How This Life Sciences PhD Fosters Entrepreneurship

Teaser

Marquicia (00:00): Get in a great habit of, um, not only just looking at the numbers, but what is the story behind the numbers? If I was to say, have a narrative around this, what did, what did it mean? And it’ll help you uncover what your priorities are. Something that’s not working. Like I, I spent so much money on this, but I don’t know if it’s really working. You’re kind of already gut checking and doing like an audit, if you will.

Introduction

Emily (01:00): This is Season 18, Episode 1, and today my guest is Dr. Marquicia Pierce, who holds a PhD in molecular physiology and biophysics from Vanderbilt University and an MBA from Northwood University. In the ten years since finishing her PhD, Marquicia has worked in various capacities to foster life science start-ups and small businesses, and she is now the owner and principal consultant for Ruby Leaf Media, a science communication company for people who want to turn their tech story into a business story. Marquicia recounts the courses and projects she pursued during graduate school that set her up for her post-PhD career and how she balanced her advisor and committee’s expectations with her career ambitions. She also details the multitude of government, academic, and private sector resources that are available to founders and inventors and the skills and mindsets that a PhD can bring to entrepreneurship.

Emily (01:52): I’m looking for a couple more interviewees to round out Season 18 of this podcast! If it’s been in the back of your mind to do so, this is your official invitation to please volunteer to be interviewed. I love that on this podcast I get to feature PhDs and PhDs-to-be who are almost exclusively regular people and learn and share their real-life stories and strategies. Please go to PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ and fill out the quick form, and I’ll be in touch over email. I look forward to interviewing you in the coming months! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s18e1/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Marquicia Pierce of Ruby Leaf Media.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:51): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Marquicia Pierce of Ruby Leaf Media, she’s the owner there. And Ruby Leaf Media, as she described to me, is a science communication company for people who want to turn their tech story into a business story. And just in our pre-interview chat that Marquicia and I had, it was so fascinating to hear about her career journey. I know you’re gonna get a lot from this as well. So, Marquicia, welcome to the podcast. Would you please introduce yourself and your company for our listeners?

Marquicia (03:18): Thank you so much, Emily, for having me. This is such a great opportunity, um, just to chat, sit down and chat with you. You’ve been providing such great valuable resources for, uh, a lot of my colleagues, so I appreciate the opportunity. Um, so yes, so my name is, um, Dr. Marquicia Pierce. I am a life scientist by training. My, uh, training was in molecular physiology and biophysics. And, uh, ever since my time in the lab, I, I found that I really enjoyed being able to take those concepts from the lab and bring them out to the community. So, um, as we’ll get into, uh, some of the, the context here, um, my background includes, um, being a military brat who, who knows that community can be, uh, made and you have an obligation to, to bring something to that community. And so, um, I’ve just been able to fortunately, have been able to do that for a lot of different, uh, high tech companies that are started by PhDs and they’re trying to cross over from the lab to, uh, bringing value to, to their community, wherever that is.

Experiences During Grad School That Went Beyond Basic Research

Emily (04:20): And this is gonna be a really fascinating interview, um, on just all the opportunities there are in front of graduate students and PhDs for doing just that, for, um, advancing their careers and translating their work. And this is gonna be amazing, but I wanna hear more about your kind of personal journey as well. So going back to graduate school, can you tell us a little bit about like the, um, the things you did that were above and beyond just your basic, basic, you know, research as a graduate student that were like side hustles or like, like extra projects that you did just experience that you gained that helped you, that helped you along in your career path?

Marquicia (04:54): Absolutely. I love this question. Um, so I did my PhD at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. And during that time, I knew two things for certain. I knew I wanted to incorporate some type of business into what I was, um, what I, what I was studying at the time. I was looking at how vitamin C moves in the brain, uh, on a molecular level. We were looking at different proteins that made that po- possible, if there were any, uh, phenotypes or if there’s any characteristics when you didn’t have these nutrition, um, in your, in your diet. And I love that I could connect that to and translate that to my family, like, Hey, if you don’t eat these particular nutrition, these things might happen. Um, and, uh, I remember very specifically, my, my grandmother had major symptoms of diabetes during the time that I was, um, getting my graduate program, uh, completed. And I distinctly remember one day thinking through, I know down to the molecular level what’s happening with her symptoms and her disease progression, what would happen. But I feel so useless and helpless ’cause I don’t know if there’s a particular innovation or something that could, that could help. And that I think that kind of solidified for me that there has to be a way to take what we’re learning and translate. Um, many people have done that, but that’s when it clicked for me. And so, um, I knew I wanted to incorporate business. Uh, I wanted to get an MBA, but at the time, there wasn’t really a great place to insert that into my, my program. So I ended up, um, auditing engineering, a lot of engineering management courses in the undergrad engineer engineering school, and being able to work with them on their marketing, their tech management courses.

Marquicia (06:39): Uh, I was able to be involved with one of their capstone day for seniors where they were, um, trying to put together a research project, um, around a particular technology. We were working with a small businesses in the ecosystem. Um, uh, I had a fantastic member, uh, mentor around that, Dr. John Beers who, who facilitated that connection. And so in the lab we were doing what we needed to do, but I was auditing courses, um, around that particular thing. I was involved with, uh, tech, tech Venture Challenge where we were tasked with we being other students from the medical school, the graduate school, the law school, the business school. We were all trying to get behind a particular Vanderbilt, um, or small business in Nashville invention and make a case for this could be a business that could be sustainable and provide value to the community. Um, those are, those are things that I think were pivotal to add on. You always wanna have science plus something that you, you, uh, enjoy. And also like creative graphic design types of things. So I was, uh, a lot of those art science, um, classes as well. Uh, but yeah, definitely had a lot of projects while I was getting my PhD that helped spark that fodder, if you will, for, you know, what do I do after I get my PhD.

Entrepreneurial Opportunities for Grad Students

Emily (08:02): And in your, outside of just your own personal experience in graduate school, can you think of other like, types of opportunities that graduate students might encounter that would provide similar benefits?

Marquicia (08:13): Sure. So, um, a lot of the student competitions are a great place to start. If you just want to, to dip your, your foot in. How do I work with other interdisciplinary teams, law students, business students on a project? These could be anything from a hackathon to, uh, which, you know, you spend a weekend trying to figure out a business proposal to, um, auditing a course that even, even though they’re undergraduates, that’s, that’s a great opportunity to kind of bring in some of those concepts that are complementary to your PhD. Um, we had a, we had a, uh, academic alliance that was between, uh, Vanderbilt and the entrepreneur community as a whole that, um, it was called Life Science, Tennessee Academic Alliance, where you could get involved as a, a mentor or you could, you can bring in speakers to your, your class. You could, uh, host this tech venture challenge.

Marquicia (09:08): Um, those are great opportunities if you just wanna see if that, that opportunity is for you. Um, a lot of, a lot of times now that was, that was 10 years ago, uh, I’m seeing a lot more, uh, fellowships or courses that you can take while you’re doing your, your, your PhD that will incorporate, Hey, here’s a small business proposal, a market research, um, uh, project, uh, at, at in Michigan, there is a group called My Lead. It is graduate students, postdoc students that do just that. They work as a small boutique consulting agency where they put together, uh, a market research plan. They dig into the de the details and the data both on the science side and the business side and be, and are able to work with other companies in that way. So, um, those smaller projects, six, three to six months or a semester long, uh, is a, is a great way to kind of get your feet feet wet. With that.

Pushback For Participating in Activities Outside of the Lab

Emily (10:05): I’m wondering, um, did you encounter any cultural in terms of, uh, the field that you’re in, the life sciences, any, uh, pushback to you participating in these outside of the lab activities? I’ve just noticed that the life sciences, um, among the STEM fields would probably be the most resistant, um, to those kinds of things. But it sounds like Vanderbilt itself was pretty well set up to facilitate this. I’m just wondering what your observations were around that sort of like, culture of do we engage with business, do we engage with startups, like from, you know, the research side of things?

Marquicia (10:41): That’s a great question. So I know that there were, there were parts of, um, the community that really was open to, you know, there’s, there’s opportunities to kind of engage in these particular ways. We very often had that same conversation, like, how, how much do I say? I don’t want to necessarily, um, have an update about this in my committee meeting, uh, <laugh>. It could very well in that particular case be, um, seen as a distraction. You know, you’re, you’re here for getting your graduate studies done, you stay in the lab, especially if things aren’t working, it’s very hard to justify, you know, um, yeah, well, I won’t be able to work on it, you know, I’m, I’m trying to do this particular class. Um, I think that’s why auditing the class was really helpful. And, um, uh, the way Vanderbilt was set up, it was, uh, their IGP or the interdisciplinary program was very used to these different departments had courses that was as attached to it that we were, depending on our specific route, able to go to.

Marquicia (11:47): Um, and so there was a little bit more set up for if you wanna audit a class, um, we can, we could help that. But I still have to get permission through the graduate school to audit an undergrad class. And that included a conversation with my PI and my director of graduate studies who very, at the beginning, very naively, I said, you know, Hey, I, I think I would like to get my MBA. They were really open to, that’s a, that’s a great thought, uh, in theory, <laugh>, you know, but not necessarily having a pathway for to, to that happen. But yeah, it was very much, uh, I felt like I’m living two lives, and if, if you’re going over to the dark side of consulting or industry or management of, uh, investment banking, something that in, in included that, it was, it was kind of, um, you have to be very careful and impactful of how, how you were able to ex explain that. Um, you know, this is a class that I’m taking, it will be over at this particular time, uh, for one of the projects, uh, as intern, I have to say, well, I, I would be willing to take a pay decrease because I’m not, I’m not putting in the same amount of hours per week. So it, there were, and whether or not that that’s discouraged or encouraged, um, especially if you’re going on year six, six of your PhD, it, those can be very awkward <laugh> conversations, to say the least.

Resources for Academics Who Want to Start a Business

Emily (13:09): Well, thank you so much for sharing kind of your experience in that area. I hope it’s, I hope it’s encouraging to people who are facing similar like questions of, it’s, it’s worth pushing it through. It’s worth having these conversations. Maybe you don’t need to tell them everything that’s going, you know, tell them what they need to know, but, you know, get your work done and, and still, because these, these, these extra quote unquote experiences are the ones that are the most valuable for your career. I, I would say, we’ll see in your own story how this, um, develops. So can you say anything more about, um, the, the resources that are available for, let’s say, graduate students or postdocs or people who are still associated with academia who want to start a business, how, how the, how academia can be set up to help them do that. Um, and what are like the pros and cons of accessing those resources?

Marquicia (13:54): That’s a really good question. Um, if you are in academia, you do have a lot of resources that say if you were not, and you were trying to get something, uh, into, into the marketplace on your own that you might not be aware of. So first of all, if you’re a student or a faculty member, um, the things that you would want to be on the lookout for is if there are any, uh, connections you have with your tech transfer office. Because first and foremost, you’ve probably signed some contract or you have something spelled out with your, your place of employment that any intellectual property or even idea or anything that you work on is, is owned by the university point blank period. So you’re, the process for being able to, um, if, if it’s connected with your research, bring that into a business, they, they have a process for doing that.

Marquicia (14:47): They usually, the tech transfer office will, will, uh, facilitate. Um, it includes, Hey, I have this idea. It is just here, I’m disclosing it to you. I haven’t formed a company. I have this idea. It’s, it’s outside of my research scope. What information or what types of resources do you have, uh, for, for this particular setup? Um, at Michigan State University where I did my postdoc, there was actually a research foundation that, um, helped if you were a student, a faculty member, or even a staff person that was at, at the, OR alumni that was affiliated with the university, and you want to start a company, they were there for you to provide resources like, uh, entrepreneur and residents would be a person who’s gone through that process. They will help you build out a business plan, build out your value proposition, which basically says, how do I, how do I make a business that creates value for other people?

Marquicia (15:39): How do I monetize it and sustain it? There will also be your guide for, here’s some state resources, here’s some academic resources in terms of money <laugh> to fund either other students, undergraduates or postdocs that can help you work through this idea. And they will actually be the, um, work in tandem with the tech transfer office, um, to say, Hey, this, this is related. This could be something that we would need the university to continue to help fund the research for think medical devices, therapeutics, um, things that it takes a university and maybe a team to research. They, they work together. Anything that has to do with clinical trials, you would have to need, you would have to use a village <laugh> that, that EIR or the entrepreneur residents can help guide you through. Um, so there’s academic ins, uh, resources, so tech transfer office, student entrepreneurship groups.

Marquicia (16:36): Um, I’ve had a lot of students that I’ve worked with that are working with a family company, they’ve been able to go through with their student, um, business groups, the, the business schools there. They have pitch competitions that give very real money, 10, $20,000 sometimes. And then also connections around that. How do you get your marketing out, your packaging, your, um, your, your story for pitching to other investors? Hey, you have this food company, Hey, you have this idea. Who in your alumni network can help bring some of, uh, some insights to this? So there’s, there’s resources there, uh, at the school. And then in the, um, community, you have, um, state resources that wanna see particularly life science, high tech innovations, push their economy forward. So there’s grants on that particular side for, uh, if you’re just in this particular region working on a high, high tech, high growth company, scalable company, which a lot of life science companies are, um, here’s what we can offer to you.

Marquicia (17:38): Here’s the connections, market research, um, legal consultants, regulatory consultants, um, how do you put together a website? Those are, those are resources that are available on that end. And then one last thing, I know I need to be brief, brief about this. There are, uh, government particular, uh, outside of the different accelerate accelerators for those things, there are government funding. It’s called, uh, small Business Innovation research, or S-B-I-R-S-T-T-R grants that can specifically, if you’re connected with the university, they, um, would provide high risk, um, uh, financial, financial resources to high risk, um, innovations. Those take a little bit longer to do, and you definitely want a team to help guide you through that. But those are also, that’s also money that you don’t have to give up equity or parts of your company to access. And I’ll, I’ll pause there.

Commercial

Emily (18:35): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2024-2025 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Orientations or very close to the start of the academic year would be a perfect time for tax education or general personal finance content. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Ownership of Ideas and Technology Created With and Without University Resources

Emily (20:02): Yeah, I think that you led right into kinda the next question, which is like the more, um, I guess aside from technology that was developed under your employment with the university, that would then be, you know, co-owned with the university. Let’s say you had an idea outside of it, not related to directly your work, the university wouldn’t own it. Um, the more kind of help you reach out for, depending on the type of help that you get, you may be giving up, um, ownership in your idea. Is that right? Can you speak a little bit about that? I mean, maybe there’s different, you know, giving up equity is different than getting a grant, for example. Can you talk about some distinctions there?

Marquicia (20:39): Sure. So at the very, um, at the very early stage in early stage in life sciences are, um, say you have a device, a medical device, you have a prototype for that device, but you haven’t tested it out on humans. You haven’t done a clinical trial or you have a therapeutic that you, you’ve maybe tested it out on mice, um, but you haven’t, you haven’t moved it towards, um, seeing if it holds up in, in humans. Most of the time you’re doing that stuff with the university. But, uh, if you, if you aren’t and you’re still in that early stage, um, the, the choices that you have are, you can go for grants and in kind services they call this non-dilutive funding, where you don’t dilute your ownership. And, um, there’s regional and government funding for that. And then sometimes accelerators or, uh, venture venture groups will have a program in which they are developing something or they’re developing co-developing with you something that can fast track that time to the market.

Marquicia (21:42): So some examples of this could be like Y Combinator or, you know, um, uh, Techstars or something where in order to have access to this, this great structure that they put in, uh, and maybe even some funds to get together, they would require a percentage of your company small, it could be many that are between five to 12% of that company. Um, the thing is, if you are, if in, if you’re in the life science space and you’re that early stage and you’re already giving up equity, you have a very long runway <laugh> to go to where every, at every milestone the company gets a little bit more valuable. And if you, you’re already given up equity at those earlier stages, you don’t have as much for the, the really heavy duty milestones, a clinical trial, uh, you know, a a distributor agreement to also incorporate or leverage giving up some of your equity. Um, so it’s, it is a very different, uh, thing for the life sciences or an academic project to, to kind of evaluate these options. Uh, if you’re really early on, you haven’t gotten a lot of the feedback or regulatory spot you could consider yourself early and the latest you can push off giving off a pa- piece of your company, the better because it’ll be valuable hopefully later on. And, um, you’ll still have that, you’ll retain that, um, that ownership.

Common Skillsets and Mindsets Between PhDs and Entrepreneurs

Emily (23:09): Well, thank you so much for giving the listeners kind of a taste of that, um, those decisions that need to be made earlier on. It, it sounds like, um, being, you know, having an academic affiliation can be so helpful because you are in many ways still considered like a learner no matter, no matter what stage you’re at. And so there’s so many resources available to help you along that path. So I’m, I’m curious now about your personal journey and also the journeys you’ve observed in others, um, from, I believe you mentioned earlier that you started your company sort of out around the time that you finished graduate school. You’ve also had a lot of other positions along the way that have, you know, added to your career. Um, and so I’m wondering for you as an entrepreneur and someone who works with entrepreneurs, what kinds of, um, skill sets, maybe mindsets are common between PhDs and people who start and run businesses? Um, like what’s help? What did we learn in the PhD that’s helpful for later entrepreneurship, those kinds of things. And that could be from your personal experience or the people you’ve known.

Marquicia (24:09): Sure. I’ll start with my personal experience. So the very first time I was introduced to like, we have to set up a company around this technology was during my postdoc. So after I left Vanderbilt, I went to Michigan State University under a, a industrial postdoc position where, um, the goal was I was working with two academic re- tenure track professors, <laugh>, trying to get a company up and going and started. And so, um, the skillset that I brought to the table and that I was trying to hone, um, was, was interesting. ’cause I was, while I was getting my PhD, I was also getting my MBA, so I was learning what were some of the frameworks that business people used, how do they talk about how they use a process, and then how do, how does that work in the lab? Or, um, how do I need to translate that from what we were doing in the lab?

Marquicia (25:00): And so, um, I would also often go back to the framework for problem solving and commu- and gr- and great communication were, um, very much similar. They just were talking about different things. So I’ll, I’ll explain. So, um, in the lab I’m working through, okay, is a small molecule, uh, useful. We do a battery of tests to distinguish why, um, based off a couple of characteristics. It might be this one is, um, it works well with cells, it’s less toxic and, you know, um, it’s, it’s easy to make. I’m being arbitrary. The way I would translate that story, um, going through my, my MBA type of framework would be, well, what value are we creating and, and specifically, who is it for? So the molecule, these, these features that we have that we were very, um, we’re trying to, trying to point out and be distinct about, now I have to turn them into benefits.

Marquicia (26:01): Well, uh, it, it’s this type of molecule that means that it’s, it’s less toxic. What does that mean to our business uh, story? Um, the people who would use it, the physicians or even the patient themselves. Well, that means that if we can keep it within the cell, it’s not messing around with your, your gut and causing you nauseous or, you know, killing other healthy cells, that means that you could take less of it. And, you know, that means for the physicians, they might adhere to the, to the drug cadence a little bit better for the patient. It means that I’m not getting upset stomachs as as often, I don’t have to, you know, get as many injections. Those are the types of communication skills where you, you are working through the same rigorous process, but you’re just trying to communicate it in a little bit different way. Um, that you, that you see when you’re filling out that story as a, as a PhD, well, I’m doing this study who, who’s in my audience? Or who’s, who’s my audience? Usually it’s your community members, right? So they wanna say they wanna see what happened, what are you doing next? And then, you know, what, what can we help you with? Same thing with a, a VC <laugh> or a, a grant writer. You have to say, what was the background, um, in their particular words, what are you working on? What is, what’s the value that you’re creating? And then where can we go from next? What’s the big milestone? So you’re, you’re able to think through a structure, uh, that’s very similar. It’s, it just needs to be translated a little bit different. Um, but being able to communicate that is, is a strength. Uh, being able to work with multiple teams that are very bright people, but they don’t work where in the same lab and the same methods and tools that you work with, you need to be able to talk their language.

Marquicia (27:41): You have to do that in, in the business world as well. And the scientists and engineers who are able to cross that gap or the ones and coachable for doing that, understanding that, okay, this is a different language. You can apply the, the practice of it, but you have to say it in a certain way. The ones that are open to learning that those are the ones that can convince other people that this is something of value. Get on our team, give us funding, give us resources, uh, that, that helps them to move that, that tech forward.

Emily (28:10): That’s fascinating. Thank you so much. Was there anything else you wanted to add on that question about skills or mindsets that transfer?

Marquicia (28:18): Um, the only other thing is that, uh, usually when I talk about my PhD and I, and I hear other people’s story and they, it comes off very linearly. We can only say one thing at a time. We did this and then we did this, and then we did this. But in reality, your, your skillset that you’re picking up with these different experiences, they aren’t a straight line. They look more like a Gantt chart. It’s like, I was trying this and then I got, I got into graphic design by being the newspaper editor for the department or something like this. And then I, that kind of went to see what policy was doing. So I volunteered a semester at this and you know, you don’t really know if they overlap or if it will lead to that big next step, if you will. But, um, that’s okay.

Marquicia (29:00): It’s, that’s what makes the journey yours is how you find out what’s create, um, how, uh, what you resonate with and the skills that you learn and these offset project or offshoot products or something that you, I was just interested in. Those are the ones that, that when you’re talking to a hiring manager or a, a program manager for that next big gig, those are the things that will resonate with them too. So, um, uh, just know that it won’t be a straight line. You’re not gonna be able to line up, uh, everything until you’ve kind of stay taken a step back and said, well, well actually, that set me up really well for this. I didn’t even know I liked doing this particular thing. So that’s, that’s all I would say for that.

Ruby Leaf Media

Emily (29:42): Absolutely. It’s just a great encouragement to, um, devote I would say a certain amount of time, a certain consistent amount of time throughout your PhD to these, like outside of the lab type activities, um, just so you can explore yourself and explore your environment and figure out what you like. And, um, as you said, you don’t know where it’s going to lead, but that’s a reason to just experiment. And I certainly did this, I didn’t do this as much in my earlier years of my PhD, but certainly by the last couple of years I was more like actively reaching out and trying different things, including the things that led to personal finance for PhDs. Um, because I wanted to figure out where I wanted to go next, and I knew I wasn’t gonna get there by just like keeping my head down and like staying in the lab all the time. Um, that wasn’t where, uh, I was gonna be headed, so. Okay. Would you please tell us a little bit more about Ruby Leaf Media and how people can get in touch with you if they would like to follow up?

Marquicia (30:31): Sure. So I, I started Ruby Leaf Media, um, shortly, like around the time I was finishing up graduate school because I wanted to continue doing these small projects around market research or, you know, putting together a, a industry report and getting paid for it <laugh>. So, uh, basically I, I started Ruby Leaf Media to, um, have that vehicle for that and I really wanted a place to infuse some creativity. Uh, at the time I was really, um, interested in how can you turn, uh, something that’s really technical into something that could be very beautiful and inspiring to your, the people that are closest to you, your family, your, your, uh, community. And so, uh, create creativity versus, um, you know, just being very defensive and, and, um, tactical about what you’re saying. I wanted to kind of merge the two. And so being able to have my own company that worked at that intersection of, uh, storytelling that businesses usually will have to do in some type of, some shape of way was my, my reason for getting started.

Marquicia (31:41): Um, today I work with, uh, a lot of ecosystem partners, accelerators, um, academic universities or academic institutions, I to, I should say, that are trying to instill some of these ideas, um, in some of these concepts and just some of this creative, um, mentor learning or peer group learning, if you will, uh, with their, with their portfolio companies or with their, with their founders. And so, um, being able to, to provide structure for that, either through a program or being able to give them tips on how do you pitch, uh, for a particular funding opportunity, how do you put that story together? That’s what, that’s, um, what my team and myself are, are really interested in doing. And we’re really interested in being able to do that for a lot of different, um, providers so that you can get that group learning experience. Um, right now, uh, the best way to look to, to figure out and see all of the different companies that I’ve worked with actually is actually my LinkedIn profile. <laugh>.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (32:48): Very good, thank you. The last question that I ask of all my guests is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

Marquicia (33:01): Um, the advice part, uh, it kind of goes around budgeting. So graduate students, uh, well, when I was a graduate student, we got paid once a month and, um, I think probably a lot of graduate students started doing this. They’re doing something similar, but it really helped me got get into the idea of, um, a little bit longer term planning than two weeks or, or even one week, like what are some of the goals that we have for this particular month? IE what bills do we have to pay? What are we trying to get, get done? And, um, it set the habit of budgeting month by month and then, um, being able to bring that over to my business. Budgeting is absolutely one of the, I mean, I feel like a lot of your resources kind of talk, talk, talk through this, but, um, just getting a great habit of, um, not only just looking at the numbers, but what is the story behind the numbers?

Marquicia (33:59): Uh, just kind of walk through. I I, I kind of like when I go through my budget, like, okay, if I was to say, have a narrative around this, what did, what did it mean? And it’ll help you uncover what your priorities are. Something that’s not working. Like I, I spent so much money on this, but I don’t know if it’s really working. You’re kind of already gut checking and doing like an audit, if you will. Uh, and, and it’s, and it’s really helpful with business ’cause it’s like, I’m paying for all these subscription services, or I’m trying, I’m trying to get this marketing campaign off the, off the ground. I think it’ll be done with this quarter, but I’m already 15% into the budget. Did we do what we needed? Just kind of talk it out, <laugh>, just have a narrative around, around your finances and just, just say it out loud. We’ll help you uncover, you know, what’s, what’s working, what’s not working, what are some of your plans? Like, if you find yourself saying things over and over, it’s like, that’s, I keep saying this, uh, that’s, that’s been helpful for me.

Emily (34:55): You know, I, I don’t think I’ve ever heard that suggestion before. Like, not only within the podcast, but like in all the personal finance, you know, material that I read. I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone say, you know, in the budgeting reflection process to tell yourself a story and to create a narrative around how did this period of time go? Did I accomplish what I wanted to accomplish? And I find that to be such a good suggestion and I think I’m gonna start doing this <laugh>, um, because it feels very like non-judgmental. Like it’s, it’s just this is how things went. I’m gonna review that. I’m gonna tell myself the story of it, and next month I have the chance to start over again and make a different story next month if I want to or tell the same one if I thought it went really well.

Emily (35:37): And so, yeah. Yeah, that’s so creative and, and I obviously it plays back into this whole interview that we’ve had and the importance of communication and what you do now. So like, it shouldn’t surprise me that this advice, uh, you know, came from you in particular, but I think it’s, that was, that was really amazing. Thank you so much. Um, Marquicia, this has been such a fascinating interview. Um, thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast and to share kind of all of these wonderful, you know, experiences you’ve had and the resources you’ve been able to, um, tap into and just suggestions for other people who want to go on a similar path. Thank you.

Marquicia (36:08): Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate what you’re doing and this is great. I wish I had been listening to your podcast when I was a grad student.

Outtro

Emily (36:24): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This PhD Works Part-Time After Reaching Financial Independence in Austin Texas

April 29, 2024 by Jill Hoffman

In this episode, Emily interview Dr. Corwin Olson, who completed his PhD in aerospace engineering and achieved financial independence (FI) just a handful of years later. Corwin argues that using a traditional IRA is typically advantageous over a Roth IRA, even for a grad student, if they have aspirations to retire early in the 0% marginal income tax bracket. Corwin and Emily walk step-by-step through his family’s finances and his money mindset from the time he finished his master’s in 2009 with a “$0 net worth” to when they reached FI in 2021. Corwin tried out unemployment during the pandemic, but ultimately returned to work a part-time schedule because he still wanted to use his engineering skills professionally. Corwin’s story highlights how a PhD can achieve a highly satisfying job and work-life balance through a combination of financial freedom and career capital.

Links mentioned in the Episode

This PhD Works Part-Time After Reaching Financial Independence in Austin Texas

Teaser

Corwin (00:00): It’s not about not working. This is what I tell everyone I meet who has not heard about FIRE or FI much before. It is not about not working. It is about control over your life. If you are financially independent, then you get to dictate what you do, like broadly across your entire life. I really wanted that control over my life, especially since we wanted to have another kid and we did. Uh, and so when, uh, our kid number two came along, my wife dropped down to halftime and then, uh, about six months later, I also dropped to zero time. And then I went back to work halftime this spring. It’s a perfect, um, application of FI. We decided that we were gonna do something different and that gave us the ability to do so without stressing about money.

Introduction

Emily (00:55): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:24): This is Season 17, Episode 9, and today my guest is Dr. Corwin Olson, who completed his PhD in aerospace engineering and achieved financial independence (FI) just a handful of years later. Corwin argues that using a traditional IRA is typically advantageous over a Roth IRA, even for a grad student, if they have aspirations to retire early in the 0% marginal income tax bracket. Corwin and I walk step-by-step through his family’s finances and his money mindset from the time he finished his master’s in 2009 with a “$0 net worth” to when they reached FI in 2021. Corwin tried out unemployment during the pandemic, but ultimately returned to work a part-time schedule because he still wanted to use his engineering skills professionally. Corwin’s story highlights how a PhD can achieve a highly satisfying job and work-life balance through a combination of financial freedom and career capital.

Emily (02:21): This spring, I’m bringing back my 15-minute introductory calls! This is a chance for you and I to meet one-on-one. I want to hear your current financial questions and challenges. If I can provide some quick value by answering a question or pointing you to a resource I absolutely will. These calls are a way for me to keep a pulse on what’s going on financially in our community so that I can address whatever comes up through my seminars for universities and the free content I create. I used to offer these calls years ago to everyone who joined my mailing list, and they were so fun and valuable to both of us! I would love to meet you, so please sign up today at PFforPhDs.com/intro/. By the way, we’re taking a short break from publishing podcast episodes between Season 17 and Season 18. You can expect the next episode to drop on June 3, 2024. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e9/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Corwin Olson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:35): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Corwin Olson of Engineering Your FI. Corwin is a PhD in aerospace engineering and he is now financially independent. And we met just a couple weeks ago. We’re recording this in November, 2023. We met at FinCon 2023, which happened in late October, and we ran into each other first at the taxes subgroup interest area, and I saw, um, his name and he saw mine and we knew we had to connect further. Um, so I’m just really excited to have a fellow engineer PhD on the podcast who is excited about personal finance and specifically fire. We’re gonna learn a lot from Corwin today. Um, so Corwin, will you please just introduce yourself, um, and your family to us a little bit further?

Corwin (04:20): Sure. Uh, married family, uh, two kids young on <inaudible>, two and seven. Uh, born in Dallas, Texas. Uh, but I’ve lived in Texas most of my life. So I’m currently in Austin, Texas. Uh, got my bachelor’s and master’s at UT Austin, university of Texas at Austin Aerospace Engineering back in the aughts. And uh, I also was fortunate enough as an undergraduate to become a certified NASA instructor, so that was a lot of fun. I got a lot of good leadership and speaking skills from that. Uh, worked to Washington DC for a few years and worked a company that did navigation for a big NASA mission, which was a lot of fun. Went back for my PhD in 2012. Uh, same school UT Austin and I worked on autonomous optical navigation around small bodies like asteroids and comets. Uh, then finished up my PhD in 2016 and continued on with UT as a researcher in one of the labs here at ut. And it was towards the second half of my PhD program. And then after getting my PhD that I got a lot more interested in personal finance and fire and discovered that whole community

Defining Financial Terms

Emily (05:24): Emily here breaking in during the editing process. Since Corwin and I about to jump into some heavy financial nerd-speak, I want to take a second here to define terms for new listeners. 1) FIRE stands for financial independence retire early and FI stands for financial independence. People in the FIRE movement strive for early financial independence so that they have the option to stop working, and by early I mean perhaps in your 30s or 40s. 2) An IRA is an individual retirement arrangement, and it is a tax break that the federal government offers to incentive investing for retirement. In 2024, you can invest up to $7,000 in an IRA if you’re under age 50 and have taxable compensation. When you open an IRA, you can choose a traditional version or a Roth version or both. With a traditional IRA, you get an income tax break on the money you contribute in the year of your contribution. The money then grows tax-free, and you pay ordinary income tax on the withdrawals in retirement. With a Roth IRA, you pay your full income tax on your contribution, and then the money grows income tax-free and you withdraw it income tax-free in retirement. The standard advice is to contribute to Roth accounts when you are in your lower-earning years and a relatively low income tax bracket and switch to traditional when in your higher-earning years and a relatively high income tax bracket. Corwin is going to argue that people who want to retire early should really prefer to contribute to traditional accounts, and that includes grad students in the 12% federal marginal tax bracket. OK back to the interview.

Contributing to a Traditional IRA vs a Roth IRA in Grad School

Emily (06:49): Now, you said something very provocative to me at FinCon, which was that I, I may butcher what you said, but it was something on the lines of pretty much everybody should just be using traditional retirement accounts. And maybe you were saying that in the context of people who are interested in pursuing FI. Can you re restate what, what caught my attention during our conversation?

Corwin (07:07): Well, I think my main motivation was to emphasize how much better traditional is than a lot of people think. They think, oh, I wanna pay my taxes now, might be larger later. And from everything I’ve read for lots of different places, especially in the fire community, if you do the math, it consistently shows that traditional seems to come out on top.

Emily (07:30): Of course, my follow up question to you at that time was what about the grad students Corwin? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So that is what you have worked on in the few weeks since we left FinCon preparing for this interview. So let’s talk now about a grad student kind of specific scenario. So we’re talking about someone who’s in graduate school, we’re gonna make the assumption that they’re in the 12% marginal tax bracket. I’ve always kinda said, uh, virtually every grad student I’ve ever spoken with, if they’re investing in an in an IRA, they’re using a Roth. It’s just like the popular option by far and there’s reasons for that which we’ll go into. Um, but you we’re just gonna do the math for us. So yeah, please tell us now like the scenarios that you were looking at and kind of the outcomes and where people can read your full post about this.

Corwin (08:13): Sure. So, uh, I did this most recent blog post on engineeringyourfi.com, traditional Roth versus traditional IRA contributions in grad school. And I put the Python code that I used to generate all these results in the post. You can go download it, take a look. I know a lot of grad students know Python, so that’s good <laugh>. Um, the broad strokes conclusion is generally, you know what people have said for many, many years. It all depends on your input versus output tax rates, right? So if you are a hundred percent confident that you’re gonna be withdrawing your money in a 24% marginal tax bracket later in life and you’re in grad school now and you’re in the 12% tax bracket, then yeah you should just put it into Roth if you’re totally sure of that, right? But I think what I like to push for is that actually, especially if you’re at all interested in financial independence at an early age, retiring early, taking sabbaticals, um, then actually it can make a lot more sense to go after traditional because it is actually a lot more feasible to have a 0% tax bracket is a FIREd person, early retired person, uh, by taking a advantage of the standard deduction and the really large typically, um, 0% long-term capital gains bracket. So I did a lot of plots and I showed, you know, not just the values of the traditional versus Roth, which is deceptive, right? ’cause you haven’t paid taxes on the traditional but also the cash out value of each. And there’s some really cool nuances and fluctuations after you hit 60 or 59 and a half, things simplify a lot, right? There’s no 10% penalty. But in general, um, I still would prefer traditional because I think with our expense levels we can very easily have a 0% tax bracket and it’s quite beneficial for us to go do that. So a lot more detail in the post though.

Emily (10:00): Yeah. So what I was kind of thinking through when I was looking at these results here, which are basically like, well, okay, you’re looking at your 12% current marginal tax bracket that you would presumably be paying as a graduate student versus when you want to withdraw from this account. Maybe that’s before retirement age, maybe that’s after, um, what is your marginal tax rate going to be? Then you looked at three assumptions, which was zero, as you’ve just been mentioning 24% and also 12%. Um, and once you actually pay the tax on this money, once you get it outta the traditional account, um, it was sort of, it was even right just as good if you were withdrawing it in the 12% tax bracket, right? Same, same. Um, if you manage to get down at that 0% tax bracket, then there’s a clear advantage for the traditional and if you’re a managing to be withdrawing money in the 24% tax bracket, there’s an advantage for the Roth. But what I was thinking about and maybe what could be a thought exercise for the listener is what is your tax bracket going to be in retirement? Because when you say something like 24%, like that might be your tax bracket in your, your peak, you know, earning years, working years for your family, something in that range. But a lot of people live on much less money in retirement. That is to say they have to withdraw much less money than they were earning because maybe they had a high savings rate going on. Maybe their expenses have dropped later in life because their kids are outta the house or whatever the reason is. Um, so it’s very hard to sort of predict what, what is your tax bracket going to be later in life? Is it gonna be as high as it is in your working years? Is it definitely going to be lower? Um, and especially sitting from the position of a grad student when you don’t really know what your career is going to be. So definitely like for those of you who want to nerd out about tax rates and would be open to the possibility of maybe not doing a Roth IRA during grad school, maybe doing the traditional, definitely check out Corwin’s post at Engineering Your FI. Um, but I want to talk further now about your personal story and why for you that 0% tax bracket, oh, the traditional would’ve been the better choice, um, was is something that you have, have, you know, achieved in this at a relatively early age. So yeah, let’s talk more about your like personal story. So you told us earlier that you worked for several years before pursuing your PhD. You weren’t into the fire movement at that time. Um, so were you doing things like contributing to your tax advantage retirement accounts? Like or was it something you didn’t even think about at that time?

Pre-FIRE Finances

Corwin (12:15): Yeah, so I was fortunate to get my master’s in 2009. Went down to a net worth of $0 <laugh> because I spent all my savings going through a big backpacking trip. But my uncle sent me this article, snail mail of course, you know, back in 2009 and it’s my Uncle <laugh> and it was this money article about how you should invest in index funds. And I’m like, Hmm, okay, what are these things? The markets had just crashed, you know, they were very low valuations. So I was like, you know, I should probably do this. At the very least, I uh, wanted to match my 401k for my employer, right. And my wife had started working around the same time. So we did that, but we also had to save for a wedding and we lived in Washington DC very expensive. So at the time we were not focused on maxing out our savings rate, but we did know we needed to start investing and that paid off quite heavily because the markets were so down. We started our careers. We were lucky to get jobs <laugh> in 2009, right when the market, the economy was, uh, suffering heavily. So yeah, we were fortunate

Emily (13:12): So you had a savings rate.

Corwin (13:14): Yeah, right. I don’t even know what it was. It was definitely under 50% <laugh>.

Emily (13:19): So. Okay. So let’s kind of fast forward to when you started your PhD. I think you said that was 2012, right? Yes. And so what was your mindset like at that time around, I mean, I’m presuming you took a pay cut, right? Uh, but maybe your wife maintained her income. Like just talk us through kind of the, the shift in household finances that occurred when you started your PhD.

Corwin (13:37): Sure. So I was very fortunate that because of my work experience and grades and all that, I was able to get this really nice NASA fellowship and I also was able to get a really nice UT fellowship. So I made a pretty nice salary in graduate school, 45K a year. Uh, so it is possible to do that <laugh> for the, uh, the folks who are listening out there. Uh, it’s, you know, not super common. Usually you’re looking at close to 20k, although maybe that number’s higher now because of inflation, you know? Um, but you can make a bit more money with these fellowships. That’s why I strongly encourage all grad students to go after them. Um, but yeah, I, uh, I was more into minimalism back then ’cause I didn’t know about fire and so I thought, okay, maybe this is how I need to, to live my life, be minimalist <laugh>. But yeah, it was still, you know, finances were not, were always on the back burner still at that point.

Emily (14:28): So you were still saving, but it was not a, a major focus until a few years later, is that right?

Corwin (14:32): Right, right, right.

Post-PhD Finances and the Financial Independence Movement

Emily (14:33): Okay. So let’s talk about when you were finishing your PhD. Um, what was going on with your family overall and then how your finances changed when you got that post PhD job?

Corwin (14:42): We were pregnant with my first child. Uh, and so he was born three months before my dissertation <laugh>, which was quite rough. And you know, my wife and I are thinking about what we wanted to do after I got my degree and she was enjoying her job. She wanted to continue there. I was thinking about the business, small business, thought I might do something entrepreneurial. And it was when I discovered the FI movement, it was a Mr. Money Mustache article as it is for so many people. Uh, that really launched me down that, uh, community path, uh, to find out about all of that. And then I realized, actually I think that’s what I want most out of life right now, <laugh>. So I was fortunate that there, um, was a high paying engineering job that I could take here in Austin, a a really good lab here. So, uh, I decided, well, I think that’s what I want. Also, we have a baby coming and this would be nice to have that stability for that. Maybe a little less stress <laugh> a few less hours. I always told people my easy job was going into the office, right? Uh, so that was where we decided, okay, let’s just do two full-time jobs and let’s really ramp up our savings rate. So we ramped it up to, I think on average about 70%. Um, and one of the reasons I was able to do that is I was very fortunate that I had access to an additional retirement account, 457B, which hopefully some of your listeners are familiar with. So we maxed out that we maxed out my 403B, my wife’s 401k. That helped a tremendous amount with getting that kind of savings, right? So, yeah.

Emily (16:17): Wow. I just, I wanna probe a little bit further on like, okay, you, you’ve had this career already, you’ve just finished your PhD and you decide I don’t wanna work anymore. Or like, I don’t wanna have to work anymore in a, in a relatively short period of time, right? ’cause most people, you finish a PhD, you’re looking at 30, 40, 50 year career after that point. But that is very antithetical to like the MMM like mindset. So what exactly was your goal and what was your motivation for pursuing that goal?

Corwin (16:45): So it was really about the latter thing you just said and not the former thing. You said it’s not about not working. This is what I tell everyone I meet who has not heard about fire or fi much before. It is not about not working. It is about control over your life. If you are financially independent, then you get to dictate what you do like broadly across your entire life. So my wife took advantage of that by essentially creating a new role within our company. She’s like, I’m not as enjoying this as much, but I would like to stay with y’all. I like the people I’m working with. I’d rather do this. And they said, oh, okay, well let’s say yeah, <laugh>. So she’s continued to do that and she really likes it. And I also really wanted that control over my life, especially since we wanted to have another kid. And we did. Uh, and so when, uh, our kid number two came along, my wife dropped down to halftime, and then, uh, about six months later, I also dropped to zero time. And then I went back to work halftime this spring and we could talk a lot more about that <laugh> as well. But it’s really just the, I mean, it’s a perfect, um, application of FI. We decided that we were gonna do something different and that gave us the ability to do so without stressing about money.

Emily (17:59): So this is just a very short timeline and I know you, you know, you had been saving since like 2009 at a lower rate, but really we’re talking like 2016 when you started your post PhD job, um, to, it sounds like about 2021 when you were able to really change like your work lives. Um, I mean that’s only five years. Like even the most aggressive, like fire people talk about 10 years, right? Not starting from zero. Um, yeah, so like this is just, it’s just amazing. I mean, I know the 70% savings rate, like that’s what did it, right? That’s a really, really high savings rate.

Corwin (18:31): Well, market the markets too-

Emily (18:32): But I’m just marveling over this short timeline. Mm-Hmm,

Corwin (18:34): <affirmative> Yeah, the market’s really exploded. If it had been a bad or even mediocre market during that time, we, we would not have done that. I mean, it was just because the stock market, we didn’t do anything other than bland vanilla total stock market index funds. So we didn’t pick stocks or anything like that to try to get lucky with, you know, which ones we’ve chose. So it was good fortune as well, big time.

Emily (18:57): I think in some ways your story is relatable, like you just said, using index funds. No crazy inaccessible investing strategies. Uh, furthermore, as you mentioned earlier, you took a straight W2 job, you didn’t, you know, strike out on your own and start the business. There can be upside to that. There can also be downside. Um, and so in, in that way it’s relatable, but come on, a 70% savings rate, like that’s the part that’s like, how are you doing this? So I want you to give me a couple of like structural things like how, how your life is that helps you achieve or at that time, right from, from those incomes you had then that 70% savings rate. I know you mentioned you use the pre-tax retirement accounts, that’s awesome. But it doesn’t, uh, change your actual spending. So like how are you keeping the spending down? Like where do you live, what do you drive? Like these kinds of things. Yeah, right.

Expenses with a 70% Savings Rate

Corwin (19:40): So we’re fortunate that we live in Austin, Texas, which historically has been a lower cost of living. Now it’s changing. We bought our house in 2013, which at the time we thought, oh, this is way too late. You know, we’re gonna pay so much more money than we would’ve a year ago or whatever. But our house is doubled in value since then. Our mortgage is so much lower than it would be if we bought in Austin now. Um, and we’ve also been consistently frugal. We were both raised pretty frugally, so you know, our five year spending inflation adjusted is around 50K ish. So now, uh, that does not include daycare. Uh, daycare is something that we do pay for, but that’s gonna end in like two or three years. So we kind of set that as a lump that together on the side kind of deal.

Corwin (20:28): Um, but it’s been primarily keeping expenses down. Uh, we do a lot of things like travel hacking, which I love, you know, figuring out ways to pay for travel without, ’cause if we didn’t do that, our spending would be a significantly higher. Um, and just, you know, variety of things. I’m always optimizing perhaps obsessively <laugh>. Uh, so yeah, it’s, it was something that we were able to uh, just continue to work at. We got Mint mobile for example, and that slashed our cell phone bill dramatically. We never even knew about it beforehand. And so it was just consistent, you know, inflation things go up. But every year we kind of go down for us a bit as we found optimizations for various things. Now I think we’ve pretty plateaued essentially. Um, we just bought a new roof, so <laugh> that brought up our spending quite a bit.

Corwin (21:20): Uh, but yeah, I mean it’s, I think that a lot of people are scared by the 50% or higher numbers and I’m always telling people, you should save at least 50% of your income. And I usually get eye rolls or stares or okay, this guy’s like off the wall. I dunno, I’m not listening to him anymore, but, which is bad, right? <laugh>. But I think it’s still something that I love to see people achieve or at least work to achieve. Because if you do the math, you’ve seen it probably before these various plots, like from zero, how long it takes to get financial independence. If you’re at 50% it’s 15 years. So, and higher percentages don’t shave that many more years off ’cause of that exponential growth. So I feel like that’s a nice sweet spot done with mandatory work in a decade and a half, I feel like that really gets, speaks to a lot of people.

Corwin (22:09): So I’m always pushing that, you know, try to get to 50% even if you’re not there, try to get there because you’ll gain so much more power over your life so much faster as a result. And that was really what was important to us. That’s what motivated us this entire time before we discovered fire. You know, my wife and I would be like, well is this important or not? We didn’t have like a unifying goal, so, you know, that caught us on the same page so much better. So fire’s good for your marriage for a lot of reasons. I think <laugh> also, I think, you know, money conflicts are one of the big things that drive a lot of marital stress. So that was another thing that was important to us. So, yeah, I don’t know if I really answered your question, but we just try to keep expenses down general.

Emily (22:48): Yeah, I think the key answer in there was the home purchase in 2013, but yeah, furthermore not upgrading, right? Because I know, you know, this is the temptation when you have your first baby or your second baby is we have to live in a bigger place. We have to drive a bigger car, a newer car, like there’s lifestyle inflation that’s, that’s baked into those like sort of um, life transition points, family transition points. And so at least with respect to your home, you’ve clearly, um, avoided that temptation of of lifestyle inflation.

Corwin (23:15): It’s hard though. We wish we had another room in this house all the time. <laugh>, especially when grandparents come to visit. This is my office slash guest room. So you know, when uh, when uh, we’ve got visitors, I lose my office and that’s annoying. But you know, it’s okay.

Emily (23:32): Do you think you’re gonna stay?

Corwin (23:36): Probably. Uh, so our son’s in elementary school now and I think if we were to buy a new house, we would probably need to move to a different neighborhood, different area. He’d have to change schools and it doesn’t seem like it’s worth it. We’ve thought about doing an add-on as well, so especially with interest rates the way they are now. So we’re, we’re camp mortgage. We’re team mortgage, so, uh, we’ve got a pretty low mortgage as well, so, yeah.

Benefits of Financial Independence

Emily (24:00): Yeah, so it sounds like you’re gonna try to find a way to stick it out in the same house and, and keep that mortgage. That’s amazing. Um, okay, well I wanna talk more about like the, the benefits you’ve experienced of the, the degree of fire that you have now, which was, you mentioned that you, your wife went to half time, you left your job for time, now you’re back working part-time. Can you just talk about how, um, this FI achievement slash the mindset stuff enabled you to find that like satisfaction with your work and the control over how you work?

Corwin (24:26): Yeah, so I, I was not, I was an unemployed bum for a year and a half and, uh, <laugh>

Emily (24:27): Stay home dad <laugh>.

Corwin (24:33): <laugh> I prefer an unemployed bum because it gets people like what, uh, but I think that after a while I also realized, you know, I spent close to 20 years developing all these engineering skills and it’s like I was doing a lot of other projects that were fun. I worked on this site engineering your FI and that was fun, but I also felt like it just felt so, uh, wasteful, I guess is the best word. Like not use those skills anymore. I missed a lot of the friends I had at the lab that I worked at. And so, um, I had lunch with my boss slash friend, a former boss slash friend from the lab. And you know, he told me there’s some really cool stuff going on, you know, would you be interested in maybe come back? So I spoke with him, I spoke with some of the other management and we greeted on this really nice halftime deal where I always get to leave by two o’clock.

Corwin (25:19): I always leave by two o’clock to, to pick up my son from school. We bike home from school. That was something I always wanted when I was a kid to be able to, you know, go home with my parents bike home, whatever, right? So I was like, that’s very, very important to me. And uh, it’s allowed me to continue working on my site. Other things, projects, just logistics at home. So it’s been really, really nice. My wife is same. She gets to volunteer at the school a lot because she’s working halftime. So it’s been a really nice balance. I wrote a whole blog post about the pros and cons of halftime part-time after fire because, you know, mathematically you don’t need to <laugh>. Um, so I tried to uh, lay out those ’cause I wrote so many pros and cons list <laugh> before I went back, so yeah.

Emily (26:06): Yeah, I have a similar work schedule. My business allows me to work about halftime same as you. I work kind of while my kid is in school and then we get the late, you know, the latter part of the afternoon together. Um, which I mean that flexibility is, is kind of like invaluable as a parent, honestly. Like, um, it’s, it’s very, very difficult once your kids get into elementary school to figure out how you’re gonna run everything if you have like two traditional nine to five like schedules. So I definitely see the appeal there, but like I was just saying, there’s multiple ways you can achieve this, right? Business ownership, working part-time being totally fi, um, maybe just having an alternative kind of work schedule. Like all these different possibilities are there, but the more, as you were saying earlier, the more kind of confidence you have that you don’t need your job <laugh> in exactly the format that you have it right now, the more that gives you the ability to negotiate for what would really work for you, which is so beautiful. So you don’t have to be all the way FI to get there. Um, you happen to be, but you can just be like on the path and be secure enough that, you know, you can take a risk with that kind of ask.

Corwin (27:07): Yeah, yeah. I talked, one of the other articles on my site is, uh, something called Flamingo Fire Flamingo Fi, which I was a big fan that first time I heard of it. It originally came from a blogger in Australia actually. And when I first encountered that, I thought this is a great balance of FI versus, uh, not being so aggressive with your savings. Early on, their philosophy was save up to halfway to the FI point and then, uh, work however much you need to to cover expenses. And then about a decade or so you’ll be traditional FI. So it’s more aggressive than coast fi, less aggressive than standard fi. Mm. And so I thought that’s a really nice balance. And so I feel like we’re kind of the fat flamingo fi version because we’re at standard fire closer to that. But with these halftime jobs, we more than cover our expenses and we expect, you know, probably within, you know, half a decade or so, something like that, we’ll probably be more of the fat FI level, whatever that means. So, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s nice to have these different levels and different ways to have power over your life. Big time.

Emily (28:12): I’m thinking about the phrase live like a grad student, live like a resident, you know, that like, um, live like you’re still a trainee even afterwards. Now. I think that really applies in your case because you had the very nice stipend. I mean, 45K in 2012 is like really, really, I was making like 28 K in 2012. Um, you have that like nicer sort of level of income while you were in graduate school plus your wife’s job and everything. Uh, but it sounds like you probably about maintained your lifestyle, um, even with increases in income aside from the additional expenses for childcare and so forth that come with the kids. Does that sound about right?

Corwin (28:44): Yeah, yeah. Roughly, if anything, we lowered it. Mm-Hmm. Because we found various ways to stop wasting money <laugh> on things like cell phone bills and other things. I found that you could call these companies that could compare your insurance rates across a whole bunch of different companies and, you know, always found it’s the lowest rate, et cetera, et cetera. You know, it’s like the more you know, knowledge you gain the, the faster the snowball starts, right? So that was a, you know, a big thing that we, you know, I always try to keep it in mind inflation <laugh> as well, because sometimes it’s going up, but you’re still going, you’re still doing good compared to inflation, especially recently. But, uh, but yeah, we definitely strove to not inflate after the PhD for sure.

Commercial

Emily (29:31): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2024-2025 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Orientations or very close to the start of the academic year would be a perfect time for tax education or general personal finance content. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Corwin’s Book: Engineering Your PhD

Emily (30:58): Since you were just mentioning, we were just talking about your excellent stipend and so forth, you have a book, right? That’s relevant to graduate students. Can you tell us about that?

Corwin (31:06): Sure. Uh, so this is something I wrote back in 2019. Uh, it’s called Engineering Your PhD, an Actionable Guide to Earning Your Graduate Degree in Engineering. I had looked around online and I found books that were designed, written for PhDs and how to get your PhD the best <laugh>, but not a lot for engineering. There’s like maybe one or two others. And I had all this knowledge in my brain from when I got my PhD about how to do various things that I really wished I’d known before I started graduate school. So it was really more of like a passion project, like let’s get this into a more permanent form. Something I can hand to my kids one day if they wanna go to graduate school and say, Hey, engineering, at least you know, this is the collection of things that I thought were important when I finished up. So yeah, it’s on Amazon now and uh, um, I will say it’s not really my focus anymore to focus on academia. I’m much more interested in FI and fire and personal finance and things like that. It’s been a while since I was in academia. Now that’s hard to believe, but, uh, yeah, it’s still I think a well-written book according to my very biased opinion <laugh>. So if anyone interested in, uh, joining, uh, interested in checking that out, you’re certainly welcome to.

Emily (32:20): Editing Emily breaking in again! Corwin very generously is offering Engineering Your PhD free for download for five days after the publication of this interview. If you’d like to grab it, please go to PFforPhDs.com/S17E9/ and you’ll see the Amazon link in the list of links near the starts of the show notes. OK back to the interview.

The Future of Corwin’s FI Journey

Emily (32:43): So thanks for telling us about the book. Um, I wanted to ask one more question before we get to our final one, which is what, what does the future look like, right? You’re, you’re, you’re at FI, maybe you’re gonna continue building towards a fatter version of FI. You, you have your halftime work schedule. Like do you anticipate making any changes or are you just gonna cruise to a traditional retirement age at this? Like what do you think?

Corwin (33:04): I don’t know. That’s a good question. So for the foreseeable future, we’re gonna continue doing our part-time roles. I think that’s a good balance for us with young kids right now. But things could change in the future. Maybe we decide we wanna actually ramp up, we want to strengthen our careers, we wanna get more into what we’re doing in our jobs. Maybe we wanna go the opposite direction and do less or focus on entrepreneurial activities. You know, we live here in Austin, Texas where it gets very warm in the summertime. So I think we’ve toyed around with the idea of living elsewhere during the summer times when the kids are out of school. Uh, so that’s something that might be of interest to us, but that’s, you know, more like the summertime versus the rest of the entire year. So, you know, we could take sabbaticals from our, uh, part-time roles for a couple months, get outta the heat and then come back. That sounds really nice. Uh, and then who knows, you know, once my daughter graduates from high school, uh, in 16 years <laugh>, then, you know, the world’s our oyster. We might go elsewhere, we might go to Colorado or depending how hot the earth is at that point we may have to go further north <laugh>. Um, so yeah, we’ll, uh, we’ll have to see what happens.

Emily (34:15): Okay. I just love how like calm and like chill that answer was just like, I don’t know, we’re doing FI. We’ll see where it goes. We’ll do what we want. Um, and that’s really what fire affords you. Um, especially fire in, you know, professional fields like you have where you have so much career capital as Cal Newport would say by this point, right? You can deploy it in different ways, right? Um, so I love that.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (34:36): Okay, so let’s get to our standard question. What is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? It could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Corwin (34:47): So a few things that are very standard boilerplate pieces of advice. Well, maybe one’s not so much. First thing is track your expenses. I mean, if you’re not tracking your expenses, that is the foundation for everything. If you have no idea how much you’re spending, then you’re not going to be able to make almost any progress on lots of different things, especially if you wanna pursue financial independence. ’cause that’s gonna tell you how much money you need to save. That’s gonna tell you your savings rate is all kinds of things. Uh, and you’re not gonna be able to reduce it if you don’t know how much you’re spending. Uh, another thing is, like I mentioned earlier, I’m always pushing for a 50% savings rate, if not currently, then aspirationally trying to get there because it’s such a powerful thing for your finances and getting to financial independence within a couple decades.

Corwin (35:30): Uh, also a big fan of not getting complicated with investments. Put everything into a low cost stock market index fund, like V-T-S-A-X. First thing I do when I look at a fund is go straight to the expense ratio. <laugh>, it’s the first thing I do. But the last thing I would say is maybe a little less, um, uh, traditional, which is I encourage people to build their own tracking systems, their own financial tracking systems. There’s so many tools out there, just an infinite number of tools you can pop your numbers into and get all these different things. But I feel like if you do your own thing, you’re building the skills up to track your finances that you have that ultimate customization for what you actually want, right? Even if it’s just spreadsheets, you know, that’s, that’s perfectly fine. It’s usually free. You’re not paying anything. Again, that’s good for your savings rate, right? Um, but I do recommend trying out some other tools as well, uh, to see if the numbers line at least closely or roughly <laugh>. So yeah, that’s be my top pieces of finance advice for grad students.

Emily (36:35): I really love. Well, but the first and the last one, right track and also build your own, um, tool for doing so and, and doing more than just tracking because at the moment that we’re recording this finance internet is a buzz because Mint has announced they’re shutting down their, uh, budgeting feature and they’re kind of transitioning over, I think completely to Credit Karma stuff. So I’ve been a mint user for like, I don’t know, like 13 or 14 years now. And not that I’ve been completely reliant on it, but to the degree that I have my own stuff going on, I’m really happy for that now. ’cause now I’m like, okay, what do I do? I have to like download all this data. It’s gonna be like unusable CSV files, like what is going to happen with this like track record? So, but as you were saying, like there’s other great tools out there. Like you need a budget, it’s so popular, but there is a yearly fee to it. And so if you don’t want to have that kind of subscription, build your own stuff, it’s not, I don’t know, it’s not that complicated. I guess it depends on how great you are with like, you know, spreadsheets and stuff. But, um, so I love that advice of just like, be ready for these services to shut down on you. It’s literally happening to me at this moment. Yeah. So don’t be totally reliant on outside, you know, um, apps and so forth.

Corwin (37:40): Yeah, I think if you’re smart enough to get into a decent graduates program, then I think you’re smart enough to create a spreadsheet that can track your finances at least at a crude level that you can be fully in control of <laugh>. So yeah.

Emily (37:54): Yeah. Um, I’ll take the opportunity to plug something of mine in the show notes. I’ve literally not announced this on the podcast yet, uh, as of this recording. But I made an a simple Excel spending tracker that incorporates a couple of my like philosophies about how to manage money, which are to, um, spend what you earned last month, <laugh>, like don’t spend what just came in, like wait until the next month to spend it. Hmm. Um, and also to incorporate, um, sinking funds or targeted savings like into that, that system. So I don’t know, people ask me for a long time, like if I could just send them a simple spending tracker and I finally made one a few weeks ago in response to someone at a speaking engagement who wanted it. So go to PFforPhDs.com/tracker if you wanna download that and take it and make it your own and build it out and have it do other things and take my ideas, discard my ideas, whatever you like. But if you want a starting point, like there’s a starting point for you Corwin, um, it’s been a such a fascinating conversation. I’m so excited for how your life has unfolding and how the PhD has played a role in that. Um, it’s so excellent and thank you so much for sharing your story with the audience and coming on the podcast.

Corwin (38:57): Thank you very much.

Outtro

Emily (39:08): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.