Personal Finance for PhDs

Live a financially balanced life - no Real Job required

money story

This Grad Student Is Riding the Meme Stocks and Crypto Roller Coasters

by

In this episode, Emily interviews Cara Davidson, a graduate student at Western University. Cara has a “tumultuous” income from assistantships, scholarships, and freelance writing, and she built up a considerable nest egg thanks to diligently tracking her spending. She started investing in January 2021 in mutual funds and also meme stocks and crypto. Cara details her investing motivation, philosophy, and sources, shares how much mental bandwidth she devotes to her positions, and gives great advice for anyone already invested in or considering investing in meme stocks and crypto.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

grad student meme stocks and crypto

Teaser

00:00 Cara: Do your research. Just because it’s a meme stock, that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be some kind of data behind it. Don’t just do it because the internet says to do it.

Introduction

00:15 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 9, and today my guest is Cara Davidson, a graduate student at Western University. Cara has a “tumultuous” income from assistantships, scholarships, and freelance writing, and she built up a considerable nest egg thanks to diligently tracking her spending. She started investing in January 2021 in mutual funds and also meme stocks and crypto. Cara details her investing motivation, philosophy, and sources, shares how much mental bandwidth she devotes to her positions, and gives great advice for anyone already invested in or considering investing in meme stocks and crypto.

01:06 Emily: I’d like to share with you a personal update now. As I discussed in Season 8 Episode 18, my husband and I purchased our very first home last spring in north San Diego County. It was an area we’d never lived in or near before but we are location independent with respect to work and just got a really good feeling from the city. We’ve been living in our house for about five months now and are settled into a pretty pleasant routine. Our older daughter started kindergarten in August, and our younger daughter is in preschool. After a year and a half of either no childcare or grandparent childcare, it’s amazing to have our children back in a school setting. It’s great for them to be among peers, and it’s great for us to have quiet, uninterrupted work time. We also enrolled the kids in introductory sports classes, which is quite hilarious to watch.

01:58 Emily: We’ve made friends with a few of our neighbors, and I’ve organized a once-per-month social gathering in our neighborhood park. We have a goal to explore one new-to-us point of interest each weekend, so we’ve been to numerous beaches, parks, tourist attractions, etc. It definitely isn’t considered hip, but my husband and I both really wanted this quiet, suburban, family-oriented lifestyle, and I think we’ve made a good start at cultivating it after so many years of putting down only shallow roots. COVID has of course made its mark on this process and has dampened the in-personal socializing that I would otherwise have hoped for. I am really thankful to live in an area where it’s pleasant to be outdoors year-round. That was one of the main reasons we moved away from Seattle in summer 2020. We are here for the long-term, though, so I hope with time and vaccine availability for the younger children, we will eventually develop a robust network of local friends. So I just wanted to let you all know that things are going well following our move, and even though buying a house in a place we’ve never lived before was an odd thing to do, it seems to be working out. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Cara Davidson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:12 Emily: I’m really excited to have joining me on the podcast today, Cara Davidson. She is just finishing up her master’s now, starting a PhD program in the fall. We are recording this by the way in June, 2021. Cara has been on an investing journey, specifically regarding meme stocks and crypto and other kinds of investing. And I’m so excited to have her because I haven’t had a conversation about this yet. Obviously it’s been in the news and on a lot of people’s minds, and I know there are so many people in my audience who are interested in this kind of investing because it’s garnered so much attention and it’s so exciting. And I’ve been getting questions in my seminars actually about how do I pay capital gains tax on this money that I made from, you know, this kind of investing? So super excited to have Cara on. Cara, would you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

03:58 Cara: Yeah, absolutely. So, as you mentioned, I’m finishing up my master’s and then launching my PhD in the fall. I’m specializing in mixed methods research involving intimate partner violence and looking at how that can affect breast cancer. So I’m really excited for that, but I’ve yet to defend. So that’s kind of the bane of my existence right now. And yeah, in terms of investing, I got into that in January. It’s brand new to me still, I guess that was like the height of the meme stocks. And I got in just in time and I’ve been riding the wave ever since. It’s been a lot of fun for me. And then I’ve also been dabbling in cryptos, which I also find really interesting, especially just because of the volatility of the market, which I know is a huge disincentive for many people. But for me, it’s a lot of fun because you can make a lot of money really quick, but I guess you can also lose it all pretty fast too. So I’m looking forward to discussing all of that.

04:55 Emily: Yeah. We’ll get into that in a moment. And can you tell us what university you attend?

05:01 Cara: Yes. So I attend Western University in London, Ontario but I’m doing so remotely right now. So I’m at home in Ottawa at the moment.

Balance Sheet: Cashflow and Side Hustle Income

05:08 Emily: Okay, great. So first question is, let us know what your balance sheet looks like right now. And actually it’d be helpful to talk about cashflow too. Like what’s your stipend? What basically are, you know, you spending on living expenses, and how much are you able to save, and how much have you accumulated in what?

05:25 Cara: So, I’m a freelance writer, so I’m going to say that first because when I was doing my research on my own finances for this interview, I was a bit surprised at how much it really does fluctuate. So like I’ve made as little as $1,700 in a month and I’ve made as much as over $8,000 in a month. So, I really like month-to-month don’t know what’s going to come my way. It can be really lucrative and it can be tight. And in a year also, like, I wouldn’t say I even have an annual salary because I’m so dependent on grad funding, like scholarships that I’m applying to, GRA positions if I’m fortunate enough to get one, teaching assistantships. So even putting like a dollar amount on my annual income is difficult just because like, I really don’t know what I’m going to earn until it happens.

06:18 Emily: Okay. So you have the freelance writing side hustle, but I assume it brings in more than your main hustle, right? Being a graduate student, but it sounds like even that aspect of it is not, it’s not fixed or steady, right? Your income as a graduate student is fluctuating.

06:33 Cara: No, not at all. So like, as I mentioned before, like that about like one and a half to $8,000 range, that can come in freelance, I’ve made like 200 bucks in a month and I’ve also made $3,000 in a month and that’s just doing it like part-time, as I can, as a grad student. I was fortunate enough to get the Ontario Graduate Scholarship for last year, or I guess technically this year, which was $15,000. And then the Canada Graduate Scholarship for next year which is 17 and a half thousand dollars. But those kind of aren’t ideal because they go to tuition first. So like, you’re like, yay, $15K. And then immediately like $8,000 gets taken from you. So that’s not ideal. And then depending on whether or not I get the research assistantships and I get the TA ships, I’m making, the research assistantship’s like one to $2,000 a month. And then the teaching assistantship is about $5,000 a month, but I mean, it’s so variable. And then I got another scholarship for $1500. I don’t know if that’s coming again in the PhD, like they don’t tell you until it happens. And then one other source of income that I’ve recently gotten into is flipping things on Kijiji. So like buying like old wood furniture and sprucing it up. I really enjoy that. But then again, like that’s $0 some months and like $500 next, so.

07:53 Emily: Wow.

07:54 Cara: My finances are tumultuous, to say the least.

07:58 Emily: Yeah. That’s definitely, that’s a great word to describe it. Is at least the freelance writing, like anti-correlated with your graduate student income? Like, are you able to, if you know, you have slow months coming up for like scholarship-wise you can ramp it up, or is it also just not really under your control? Just like whatever work comes your way.

08:17 Cara: So right now I’m fortunate that I have clients that just show up in my inbox and they’re like, “Hey, I need something from you.” Just because I’ve been working with them for a long time. So that part, I don’t have much control over, but if I do have a slow month, I can go to my platforms and like apply to things and likely get jobs. So I have a lot of peace of mind from that, that like, no matter what happens, like let’s say I don’t get a scholarship next year or whatnot. Like I can still rely on that and I will be able to support myself.

Balance Sheet: Savings and Investments

08:48 Emily: Yeah. I feel like this could be a whole podcast interview in itself just on the freelance writing, which is really exciting. But also on dealing with the irregular income aspect of it. However, this is not the subject that we propose to talk about today. So I am curious though, I asked about your balance sheet. So like are you in debt for example, or how much of your assets are devoted to maybe cash savings to help you buffer these irregular months? And how much do you actually have working for you in terms of investments?

09:17 Cara: Yeah, so right now in my bank I have about $7,000 and I like to keep it normally around like three to 4,000. So I’m looking for something to do with that extra cash, just because I had a busy freelance month. In terms of debt, I am very lucky that I don’t have any. So in my undergrad, I was so lucky that my parents would pay my rent and all I had to do is worry about like tuition, books, and food. So that kept me out of debt for sure. And now getting the scholarships, like I’m able to pay off the tuition right away, because that would be my biggest expense. So, and then my partner and I just paid off his car that I now use. So I helped with like the remaining payments. That’s gone.

09:58 Cara: So I really don’t have any debt. In terms of credit cards, like I use one as a debit card. I heard that’s good for your credit score. So I do that. But I pay that off like every two weeks so that I don’t really consider that a debt. And then in terms of investments, I’m pretty busy in that front. So I have a TFSA that I’m able to use. I forget their official title, they’re a professional investment manager. And I maxed out my TFSA, which was good, which is about, I gave them like $34,000 at the beginning of the year and now it’s become $36,000. So that was exciting for me, that was like my first foray into investing and it worked out. But that’s a long-term hold. Like I’m not going to touch that money like in my mind ever. It’s just going to be there forever until I really need it.

10:46 Cara: I opened an RRSP which was fun. I’m doing that through Wealthsimple. That’s where I do my like traditional investing. And I’ve managed to make a couple hundred dollars on that as well. It’s sitting at about like $5,000, I think. And then I also have a personal account. So before I opened the RRSP, I was dabbling in Wealthsimple. And that’s just like, like I will get taxed on it, which is the sad part for me, but that’s okay. And that’s where I’m holding my meme stocks, which was not smart on my part. So like, let’s say those do really take off, then I’ll be paying the price for that, but that’s okay. I believe in taxes. It’s fine. And then I have a couple of different crypto wallets where I hold things.

11:31 Cara: So I’ve got like $4,000 in cryptos, I’d say. And so I really liked Celsius. So Celsius is a wallet where you can hold your cryptos, but you also earn interest on those cryptos. So like I’m buying tokens that I would hold anyways, but I’m earning like up to 14% interest on those year over year. So that’s been fun for me as well. And then just holding in various wallets, like my long-term things that like, I’m hoping in five years we’ll be up enough that I can cash out and make a profit.

12:02 Emily: Yeah. So, it definitely sounds like you’re not all in on any one thing, right? You have a variety of different strategies and places going on for our American listeners. I think the RRSP and TFSA equivalents would be like our IRAs or other tax-advantaged types of, you know, supposed to be for retirement type accounts. Versus just holding things in like a taxable brokerage account, which you also have. Yes. Wonderful. So yeah, you, you only started in January, but it sounds like you had a fast start because you had savings to devote to it already, right?

12:34 Cara: Yes. Absolutely. So like I worked through high school and I didn’t spend a dime and that’s why I was able to have that cushion. And it was just sitting in my cash account and I kept thinking like, I should do something, even if it’s only 5% interest like that matters for inflation and whatnot. So I was able to have a nice little nest egg to devote.

Strategies and Mindset for Building Savings

12:51 Emily: Yeah. So let’s talk for a moment. Were there any other strategies that you use to build up the savings that you were then able to invest and also your current level of savings? So you’ve already mentioned the freelance writing career, of course, finding funding as a graduate student. Anything else that you practice or related to your mindset that helped you build up the savings?

13:09 Cara: Absolutely. I track everything. I’ve been tracking everything since I was in high school. I have like my own Excel sheet where I put in all of my expenses every month. Like absolutely everything. And that’s helped keep me accountable a lot. So like I was exploring those food kits that will get delivered to your door, but they end up being so expensive. So I was looking at my grocery bill, and as soon as it hit over like $300 a month, I was like, nah, I can’t do that. Like I’d much rather put the money towards something else. So I’ve definitely dialed back on that. But if I wasn’t tracking like that, I wouldn’t see these things that crop up. And like, I find you forget in a month what you’ve actually spent things on. So like, I have a puppy and I would love to spend all my money on her. And like, I’ve noticed that, okay, you’ve already spent this much on her. Like maybe you can pass on that special thing for her this month and then get it the next month just to keep a more consistent level of expenses. So I’d say that’s been the biggest thing for me was keeping myself very much accountable in terms of what I am spending and relative to the income coming in that month.

14:18 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like, I mean, that tracking is not at all passive for you. You’re really looking at the data and then making different decisions based on what you’re seeing. So I absolutely love to hear that.

Progression to Crypto/Meme Stocks

14:29 Emily: Okay. So I think you mentioned earlier that you just started with investing in this past January, so like five months ago. And you started with a bang because you had the cash savings to put towards some different things. Of the different investments that you mentioned, was the more like classic type of investing the first thing that you did, or did you start out on these like crypto/meme stocks more? How did that progress?

14:54 Cara: So I started for sure with the TFSA. I had already put a little bit of money in there, like maybe under $10K, but I didn’t really know how to use it. That’s not very clear. So I wanted to max it out. I may as well while I can. And so that’s when I connected with the investment advisor and they were able to actually invest in different stock portfolios for me. And then I was just watching the number for like a few months and I was like, “Meh, like this isn’t doing what I would like. Like I’m young, I can take on some risks.” And I feel really comfortable with the amount that I have in that right now. So why not? Let’s do something more fun in the future and where there’s more risk, but the reward is higher and I can be more engaged with it. Because with the TFSA like, you don’t really touch it unless you need to move around your portfolio, which my advisor would do, and I wouldn’t. So I wanted something more hands-on because I do find it fun. So that’s where I got into the meme stocks and the cryptos

Getting into Meme Stocks

15:56 Emily: Let’s start with meme stocks because that’s been like the newer story. Crypto has been an exciting ride for a number of years now. So with meme stocks, you said you started in January. And when you volunteered to be on the podcast, that was in March, we’re now getting around to actually recording this interview in June. So I know there’s been some developments over that time as well. So, yeah, just tell me like what your experience was through those through these last few months.

16:19 Cara: It has been a wild ride. So I started in January. I got in on the floor of GME at like 40 bucks based on something I read on Reddit. I’ve been a part of that community ever since, but moving around there were problems in the WallStreetBets community, which I guess that happens when there’s money involved. So I’m in another one that’s like a little more secure and they call them like shills. So less people trying to sway your opinion and more of like, here’s the data look at the data, which is fun.

16:52 Emily: Is that also on Reddit?

16:53 Cara: Yeah. So a lot of how I’m involved in the meme stocks. So, I’m in on GME and AMC. Since January I’ve been holding, like they went like way up. I don’t know if you heard around like it was around my birthday and like the end of January, they just went way up and then Robinhood blocked buying. And that was like a massive thing. I was so upset because that just basically like, like cut off the feet of the short squeeze, and I’ve been holding ever since because I’m like, just because they turned off buying doesn’t mean that the short interest is any less. That doesn’t mean that they don’t have to cover. So I’ve been holding since, and then actually this week there has been like crazy developments once again. So AMC really shot up yesterday, like 99%.

17:40 Cara: They’re struggling today, but I have confidence. There’s big meetings coming up. But that actually reminds me, so like we call them meme stocks, and that’s what everybody knows them as, but AMC and GME, the reason why they’re actually successful is because there’s a lot of data behind what we’re doing. And I probably shouldn’t say we, because that sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen, but based on the data that’s available in the short interest in knowing that anyone who shorted the stock does need to cover, but if we’re all buying and holding these stocks and so many people, so many retail investors do, there’s nothing to buy up. And so when you have that much demand and that little availability that creates a short squeeze and then boom, off we go to the moon. And then I cash out. But I’ve been waiting five, six months for that and it looks like it’s on the horizon again. So we’ll see. We’ll see, stay tuned.

18:35 Emily: Yeah. Well, I would like to hear about the future. So like for you personally, do you have a plan for when you’re going to exit this position or partially exit it?

18:44 Cara: Certainly. I don’t have a dollar amount, but I do want to see indicators. Like yes, we are indeed in the short squeeze. Like, a short squeeze does not happen in a day, and it doesn’t shoot up a stock by a hundred percent. Like, it’s pretty exponential in terms of how that works. In considering who’s involved in shorting the stock, and like basically when you short a stock, like you’re betting that the company is going to go under, go bankrupt, et cetera. I’m not a huge fan of Wall Street and how they’re playing this. Like, there are a lot of shady things going on. So like, even if it goes to like a thousand dollars a share, I’m not selling. Like that’s not worth it for me. I would really like to stick it to the people who are manipulating the economy and running these like innocent businesses under. So in that regard, I need to see that the short squeeze is happening. I need to see that Wall Street is scrambling to cover everything. And then I’ll probably hold on a little longer and then sell on the way down. Because I don’t want to miss the peak.

Commercial

19:52 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD Workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Our next live discussion and Q&A call is on Wednesday, October 20th, 2021. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success! Now back to the interview.

Initial Amount of Money Invested in Meme Stocks

21:04 Emily: So when we started talking about your portfolio overall, you mentioned, you know, certain dollar amounts, 30 some thousand that you put towards this and that or the other. You can share whatever you want of this, but I’m wondering how much money you initially invested in these two stocks? Because I want to get an idea of like how big this was. It’s probably big in your world now, but how big was it at the beginning?

21:28 Cara: I’ve been like gung-ho since the beginning, but I also did not trust like the information I was getting totally. Because like I found this on Reddit. Like let’s not go too far here. So let’s see. I think I wrote down what I put in. Did I, did I not? Okay. I think I put $750 in AMC and I’ve got like a $2,500 return now. It’s still not worth it for me. The squeeze hasn’t happened. And then I think GME, I did maybe about 1400, $1,500. So, like that is a lot of money, but for me, like relative to like the TFSA I have to fall back on, like it’s not a big deal for me. If I lose that, I can recoup it based on my freelance. And like the risk for me isn’t, I don’t find it that high. I do believe that like these companies will go up, so I’m not worried about that. And I got in while the floor was still low. Like if you’re buying in now and it’s like 250 bucks and you want to buy a lot of shares, it’s going to be a lot more money for you. So I would hesitate then, maybe. But yeah, I’d certainly put about like 2,500 in total, under $3,000. And just to see like where it took me.

22:46 Emily: I feel like that amount of money is a lot of money, like in a grad student world. We’re talking about, you know, one month stipend, maybe a little bit more, a bit less. That’s a lot of money. But for you, because you had these other sources of income, you had, you know, the good savings going on. As part of your overall portfolio, it wasn’t a big percentage. And that’s something that I, so I’m kind of a dyed in the wool, like passive investor. And so, the advice that I hear from other people who promote passive investing is like, okay, sure. Like if you want to, you know, get into these like exciting trends and be part of it. And like you were saying, maybe you want to make a statement with your money about the policies of Wall Street and so forth, do it, but do it with an amount of money that you can afford to lose that’s not going to hurt you, right? It’s not going to make you lose sleep at night or anything like that. So it sounds like that’s actually what you did. And so it’s been an exciting part of your portfolio, but it’s not anywhere near the majority of your portfolio.

23:43 Cara: No, no. And that would give me stress. To lose it all would hurt my pride and that’s fine, but like, I wouldn’t be putting myself in any danger whatsoever. Like I would be perfectly able to like continue living my life and to recoup that. And like, I would never bet my life savings. I know some people do. It’s all or nothing, but I’m too risk adverse for that. Like, I do have a tolerance, so yeah. I wouldn’t recommend that. This has worked out for me just fine so far. And I’m very comfortable with what I’ve invested and where I’m at.

Time and Energy Spent on Meme Stocks

24:19 Emily: So I think what you said was that you took this initial position in January, and you’ve been holding it since then. So I am wondering about the amount of like attention you’re giving to this, given that you haven’t actually changed anything about your position. At some point you will sell, we think but yeah, like how big is this in terms of your time and your energy?

24:41 Cara: I absolutely adore it. Like I’m checking on it every day. I will take a break if it’s like been a slow week or whatever. I’m like, man nothing’s changed. But like this past week now that things have been going up again and looking promising, like there’s a big shareholders meeting coming up, we’re going to hear Q1 earnings, all of that stuff. I’m like, oh, okay. Let me just keep up with this again. So I will say that I do spend a lot of time. I like reading the DD, the due diligence, on all the forums and just keeping up with what everyone else is talking about. And I’m not sure that I would be devoting the same attention or would be this invested if we weren’t in a pandemic where this is like one of my only hobbies that I can still access. So it’s been nice to belong to a community virtually and you kind of explore this together. So I would say I do devote a good chunk of time to it, but like I see it as just like a fun hobby that I’m doing. I don’t see it as an obligation because, “Oh my God, I’m a shareholder now. And I’m worried about my portfolio,” and all that. That’s not the case.

25:50 Emily: Yeah. It sounds like you’re going about this in a really healthy manner. So I’m really happy to hear that. Anything else you want to add about meme stocks before we talk about crypto?

26:02 Cara: I will say if you’re thinking about going into meme stocks, just be careful now on the forums. Now that we’ve had our moment of glory, there’s a lot of people out there with I would say like nefarious intentions. Like as soon as we had that day where GME hit $450 at the end of January, all of a sudden all of the ads, all of the new accounts that were made and they were all shilling silver, and everyone’s like, who’s investing in silver? Like there’s no, no one’s shorting silver. What’s going on? And a lot of people lost a lot of money on that because it was basically a pump and dump to distract attention from what was happening with GME. And that’s still happening now, especially right now as we’re chatting because we’ve had such a wild week. So do your research. Just because it’s a meme stock, that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be some kind of data behind it. Like for example, AMC and GME are based on potential for short squeeze and that’s a proven concept. It happened with Volkswagen way back. So still do your research. Don’t just do it because the internet says to do it.

27:10 Emily: Yeah, that’s great. Well, I think you’re speaking to a receptive audience in that respect of PhDs and PhDs to be.

Experience with Cryptos

27:16 Emily: Okay. Let’s turn the attention to crypto, then. You also started investing at that time. Tell us about your position and what your experience has been.

27:23 Cara: Yeah. So in cryptos, it’s also kind of like the meme stocks where I’m not putting a ton of money in it. I’ve got maybe like $4,000 in there. And I like to just like keep sifting through things and changing out my positions and whatnot. My long-term holds are Nano and anything that I have in Celsius, so that would be MATIC, Ripple, and the Celsius token. And that’s just because I believe that they will continue to go up over time. And I don’t feel the need to like work around the increases and decreases that happen and the fluctuations on like a daily, weekly basis. I’m not in Bitcoin or Ethereum. I’m not a fan of the gas fees. I think that’s ridiculous. That’s why I’m such a big fan of Nano because it’s instant, it’s feeless, it’s green. And so that’s why I think like that will certainly be a strong contender in the future of crypto.

28:19 Cara: I am invested into, I guess, meme cryptos. When I heard that Elon Musk was going on SNL, I got into Dogecoin because I’m like, definitely the exposure is going to drive it up. So I got in like maybe 27 cents or something, and I got to exit about 50 or 60 cents. So that was like a tidy little return and I cleansed my hands and that was good. And then I bought in again, actually once it went back down after just because I don’t know what’s going on with Elon Musk, but like he loves it and he won’t stop talking about it and he wants to integrate it into everything. So I’m like, okay, if you’re going to have anyone behind a crypto that’s going to be actually used daily and whatnot and at least grow as an investment, then I might as well just hold like a couple hundred Dogecoin and see what happens.

29:13 Cara: And then I also invested in, I guess, a Dogecoin copy cat called Shiba Inu. It’s like, you know, like the sheep dog meme. Yeah. So it’s that. Definitely my most irresponsible investment, but it’s like fractions and fractions and fractions of a cent. So I’m like, I just put like a hundred dollars and this thing goes to 1 cent. Like that’s a good return. And I’m happy to just, like, I would spend a hundred dollars on like, I don’t know, maybe like a nice weekend with friends doing something. So I’m like, I might as well just tuck that away. I have nothing else to do right now. We’re locked down. And let’s just check on it in like 10 years and let’s see what happens. I’m happy to wait. So that’s where I’m at.

29:56 Emily: I really like to hear these distinctions that you’re making between what you’re holding long-term, what you are buying because of instincts about where a particular different coin is heading, and then also that last point that you just made about, you’re really explicitly calling that entertainment at that point. Like I could spend 100 dollars on going out. Well, okay. That’s not available to me right now. Okay. A hundred dollars in this position. We’ll just like, it’s money spent. It’s gone. It’s not even like, you’re barely even thinking about it as an investment anymore at that point. Just like you sunk some money to something you’re having a good experience with it. And it doesn’t really matter what the outcome is, right? So I like to hear those distinctions. How are you, like, what are your sources when you’re doing research on these different cryptos?

30:43 Cara: I just think about what I would like as a consumer and someone who would like to use crypto in the future just to make transactions and make everything easier. So that’s, again, why Nano appealed to me. I wanted something that’s instant, like waiting 30 minutes for Bitcoin is ridiculous. And to think that you can pay like really ridiculous amounts of fees as well. Like sometimes I buy things on Binance, like coins and then I go to transfer them out to hold them in a secure wallet and it’s like paying 40 to $80 in fees. And I just don’t think that’s right. I don’t think that makes any sense at all. And then also seeing photos of these massive mining rigs that they have all over the world that are just chugging away, killing the planet. I’m like, as a currency of the future, that doesn’t make sense either. So I do believe the ones that have the most potential for adoption are ones that are green, that are as fast as a normal transaction, and that don’t carry those massive fees. Like nobody wants to pay more money just to use money. That doesn’t make any sense to me. So my long-term holds are ones that support that for the most part.

Resources to Learn About Cryptos

31:55 Emily: Yeah. I understand. I like your thought process on that. I’m actually wondering more, like, how do you find out about Nano, for example, like how did you think about yourself as a consumer and then match that with, oh, this point reflects what I would like?

32:09 Cara: Great. Like a couple of my friends are into it, so sometimes they’ll introduce coins to me and I’ll chat about that with them. I’m involved in a lot of crypto Reddit forums where I read up on new stuff coming out or updates and whatnot. I also, I just go on CoinMarketCap and I see like, who are the gainers? Who are the losers? Why’s that happening? Because they have like a really handy, like, you’ll see like the price action and all that. But if you scroll down, they’ll give you like a two-paragraph succinct explanation of what this coin is and what it’s hoping to achieve. And then normally like there’s blog posts about that coin that I’ll look at if I’m interested that list the pros and cons. And as soon as I see something like gas fees, I’m like, Hmm, Nope. Or long transaction times. Nope. I’m out. So that’s how I would say I find my responsible investments. My irresponsible investments are things that you hear other people talking about, like Dogecoin, where it’s just like a public movement where everyone’s like Dogecoin. That’s so funny. Let me buy some and then you go up and then you can sell. So I would hear about those ones from other people in like online, I guess, conversations. So it depends, I would say.

How Much Attention Are You Giving to Your Cryptos?

33:24 Emily: Yeah. So a similar question to when we were talking about the meme stocks, but like, how much attention are you giving to your crypto positions?

33:32 Cara: I check on Nano every day, because that’s my baby and I love Nano. So I will check on that constantly. I get really excited when there is price action and I obviously have the opposite reaction when it goes down. So I check on Nano every day. As for my other ones, like, I’ll take a look at them. I just like take a gander, like my Celsius wallet I’ll check on to make sure that I got my weekly interest as promised. And then I leave that alone. In terms of Dogecoin and Shiba. Like, I don’t want to hear about those for 10 years and then I will cash out. So, I would say really Nano is the only one that like I’m investing considerable time in. Like I’m in all the forums. I’m keeping up. Like we just had a new version update come out. Because there was like a massive spam attack that was clogging up the network. And obviously that needs to be solved to facilitate like massive adoption. So developers were great and they fixed it. And so like, I wanted to know everything that was going on with that, but I do not get that in depth with like any other crypto because I found my one and I’m sticking to it.

34:38 Emily: Okay. Got it. Yeah. We’ve gotten some, you know, great insights and great advice from this conversation so far. Is there anything else that you want to add about what you’ve learned about investing in meme stocks and or crypto? I’d love to especially hear a little bit more about the psychology of it. If you have any advice for someone who’s thinking about getting into this or who’s already in, but is wondering, what do I do now? I’m already in, now what?

To Do Cryptos, Or Not To Do Cryptos

35:01 Cara: If you’re a really impulsive person, I don’t think that you should do cryptos because you can go to bed at night and you’ll be up like 20% that day. And you’ll wake up in the morning and you’re down 25%. And there’s usually no clear reason as to why that happened. So if you’re the kind of person who’s going to panic and say, oh my God, I just lost a quarter of my investment. My life is over blah, blah, blah. Don’t do it to yourself. Like you will be so stressed. But if you’re a person who is more like me and like you’re happy to buy something and then leave it alone, like indefinitely until you want to use that money or just to see where you’re at out of interest, not out of like obligation and stress, then absolutely go for it.

35:42 Cara: That sounds fine for you. But I would worry if you’re an impulsive person that you’re going to buy high and sell low just constantly and just absolutely wreck your finances. And cause yourself a lot of stress that you don’t need. Like this is supposed to be fun. People aren’t taking most cryptos very seriously. You get kind of a mix with meme stocks, but even still, like I bought in at GME at $40, I held up to $450, and we went all the way back down to like 50, 60 bucks. And it’s been five months where I’ve been sitting here checking it every day to be like, what’s going on? What’s causing this price action? And if that doesn’t sound like fun to you, and I know it doesn’t to some people, just don’t do it. Like you don’t have to do it just because everyone else is, it doesn’t make any sense for you and you won’t enjoy it. And that’s the whole point I would say.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

36:33 Emily: Great advice. Thank you. And I think I would add onto that, the reason YOU can have that attitude about this is because it’s not a significant part of your portfolio. You’re not drawing any income from this. You have other sources of income that are coming in. Your whole life is not riding on, you know, the performance of these particular investments, right? You have this in balance with a lot of other things. So like, you CAN sleep well at night because you’re not depending on this. So a very, very important point to add on there. Well Cara, thank you so much for this interview. I really enjoyed speaking with you and learning about your experience with meme stocks and crypto. As we sign off, I just want to ask you the same question I ask of all my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

37:15 Cara: Advice in terms of meme stocks and crypto?

37:18 Emily: It could be related to that, or it could be completely something else.

37:22 Cara: I would say, just buy pretty much anything and just hold it. Just hold it and like, forget the password and have a reminder on your phone in five years with that password. Like do not touch your investments unless you know how to day trade. And I don’t think anyone really knows how to day trade consistently. Like it’s very, very hard to achieve. And it’s more dependent on the market than you and most times. So if you buy and you hold, you will be okay. But obviously to do that, make sure that you’re putting in money that you don’t need for five years and you won’t feel tempted to touch it all. So whether that’s like 20 bucks or a couple thousand, whatever that means for you do it and just forget about it. And then it’ll be there and ready for you hopefully in several multiples for you in a few years.

38:11 Emily: Sounds wonderful. Thank you so much, Cara. This was a great conversation. Thank you so much for volunteering.

38:16 Cara: No, thanks for having me. I had a lot of fun. It’s nice to discuss these things outside of my Reddit communities. I really appreciate it.

Outtro

38:30 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! PFforPhDs.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student Eliminated Her Housing Expense to Pay Off Her Student Loans

by

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Erika Moore Taylor, an assistant professor at the University of Florida and the founder of Moore Wealth. When Erika started her PhD at Duke, she had $65,000 of student loan debt, which she committed to paying off before her graduation. One of the strategies she used that made the biggest impact was to serve as a resident advisor, thereby eliminating her housing expense. Erika shares how her money mindset fueled her motivation to achieve her debt repayment goal and how she is now pursuing FIRE.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Eliminate housing expense to pay off student loans

Teaser

00:00 Erika: I did factor in cost of living. So being the poor broke graduate student is a trope that we’re all familiar with, but I think some areas lend to that trope more strongly than others.

Introduction

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season 10, episode eight, and today my guest is Dr. Erika Moore Taylor, an assistant professor at the University of Florida and the founder of Moore Wealth. When Erika started her PhD at Duke, she had $65,000 of student loan debt, which she committed to paying off before her graduation. One of the strategies she used that made the biggest impact was to serve as a resident advisor, thereby eliminating her housing expense. Erika shares how her money mindset fueled her motivation to achieve her debt repayment goal and how she’s now pursuing financial independence and early retirement. If you want to be inspired to set an audacious financial goal and also plot your path to achieve that goal, I highly recommend joining the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhds.community.

01:14 Emily: There are numerous courses, webinars, recordings, and eBooks to help you figure out what financial goal to pursue right now, for example, repaying student loans versus investing, and how to go about it. Just to take some examples that relate to today’s subject: I recently recorded a set of four workshops for the Community, two of which are titled, “Whether and How to Pay Off Debt as an Early Career PhD,” and, “How to Uplevel your Cashflow as an Early Career PhD.” These workshops teach frameworks and strategies for pursuing goals, like the ones Erika set during grad school, and actually can guide you for years and decades post-PhD as well. Best of all is the community aspect of the Community. There’s a forum available 24/7 to which you can post your questions and prompts, and I host a monthly live call for discussion and Q&A. We’ve spent a lot of our live call time in recent months, discussing homeownership, investing, and career and life transitions. But of course, any financial topic is welcome. To learn more about the excellent content and other opportunities available inside the Community, go to P F F O R P H D S.Community. I hope to see you in our October live call. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Erikca Moore Taylor.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:39 Emily: I am absolutely thrilled to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Erika Moore Taylor. She is actually an assistant professor at the University of Florida, and she finished her PhD in 2018 from none other than the Department of Biomedical Engineering at Duke University, which is the same department that I graduated from four years earlier. So we did overlap I think a little bit, but Erika is joining us today to tell us an incredible debt repayment story from her time in graduate school, as well as giving us some updates on what she’s been up to since she defended. So Erika, it’s a real pleasure to have you on. Welcome! And will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

03:17 Erika: Yes, thank you so much for having me Emily, or should I say, Dr. Roberts? It’s nice that we have that connection from Duke. And as you said, after I left Duke, actually before I got to Duke, I started thinking about finances and basically use my time at Duke to understand and learn my own personal finance mindset as well as what I wanted my journey to look like. And since then, I’ve been fortunate enough to start my position at the University of Florida, but also start a company focused on personal finance and financial literacy. So I think that’s all I want the audience to know about me so far.

Financial Mindset at the Start of Grad School

03:56 Emily: That is awesome. We’re going to talk so much more about that. So let’s take it back, rewind to when you were getting out of undergrad and starting graduate school. What was your financial mindset like at the time, and what did your finances look like at that time?

04:09 Erika: Yeah, so taking it all the way back to I think it was 2012, this was the year before I started graduate school and I was fortunate enough to do an internship in Boston. And I was kind of bored during the internship, and so I took up personal finance. I started reading books about personal finance because I realized that if I graduated on time from my undergraduate institution, I’d be graduating with $65,000 worth of debt. So in 2013, when I started my graduate program at Duke, I had the mindset of being shackled and weighed down with debt. I was very concerned about debt because I knew that no matter what I did after graduate school, that debt would follow me. It would be with me like a shadow that I couldn’t shake. And so it scared me because I felt like I had done the right moves in graduating and surviving undergraduate and getting into grad school, but I hadn’t made the right financial moves. So my mindset was scarcity.

05:11 Emily: It’s so interesting to me that that student loans, in particular, provoked that scarcity mindset. By the way, did you have any other debt at that time? Aside from the student loans?

05:20 Erika: I didn’t, but when I first started grad school, I bought a car for about 13 or $14,000. So then that added to my debt. So the fear amplified.

05:31 Emily: I think that some people have, I don’t necessarily want to say, like, they feel casually about their student loan debt, but especially when you’re going straight from undergrad into grad school, like you never entered repayment. So maybe the pain of the student loan repayment was not upon you logistically, although it was still there like psychologically. And so some other people I think are just a little bit more, maybe dismissive. And I’m talking about myself. I was very dismissive about the student loan debt that I had from undergrad. It was less than yours, but I was just like, “Oh, it’s subsidized. I’m going to grad school. It’ll still be deferred. No big deal.” Yes, I did know on the other side of graduate school that I would have to pay it off. But it did not bother me psychologically. So why do you think you had the view that you did instead of just feeling a little bit more comfortable with it?

06:18 Erika: Yeah. I think I had the view that I did because I knew I would have to get a job afterwards. And before I entered grad school, I had a job at a daycare working about $7 or $8 an hour. And I had never seen $65,000 in my bank account. I had never seen $65,000 in a job that I could work. And so the fact that I had that much debt was alarming to me, like you said, psychologically, because I had never secured a job that earned that much. And so I, again, was operating in scarcity saying like, “Well, if I have this much debt, I need to pay it off because, you know, I don’t know if I will be able to pay it off.” I didn’t know, you know, how much money I’d make in a job setting in using my degree. And so I was just motivated by that number by the sticker shock, I think price of my undergraduate degree, that really motivated me to pay it off.

Savings and Stipends

07:18 Emily: So starting in grad school, can you share with us did you have any savings or any kind of assets at that time, and also what was your stipend when you started?

07:26 Erika: Yeah, so starting in graduate school, my net worth was I think about negative $60,000. So I had $65,000 worth of debt. And then I had saved around maybe six or $7,000. I saved that money because I knew I would need to put a down payment on my car that I would need to buy in North Carolina, it’s not really public transportation friendly. So I knew that I needed a car as a vehicle. And then I saved a couple of other thousand dollars for a down payment on securing the place that I was going to rent. So first and last month’s rent as well as, you know, a security deposit. So I had, you know, maybe six or $7,000 in my checking account. I was fortunate enough to secure the National Science Graduate Research Fellowship, [GRFP]. And that set my stipend, I think at the time around $32,000 a year.

08:20 Emily: Yeah. Fantastic. And three years of guaranteed funding. That’s awesome. And so actually I want to rewind for a second because having won the NSF GRFP, you, I would imagine, had your selection of graduate programs. So why Duke instead of a different program?

Factoring in Cost of Living

08:40 Erika: Yeah, that’s an excellent question. And you’re right, securing the NSF GRFP, you’re kind of hot on the market, so to speak. So lots of schools will take you even if you didn’t even apply to the school. Thankfully I had already been encouraged to consider Duke because of my graduate research advisor who had just recently moved there. But specifically when I was making my list and considering what schools or programs I would attend, I did factor in cost of living. So being the poor broke graduate student is a trope that we’re all familiar with, but I think some areas lend to that trope more strongly than others. So I kind of eliminated going to Boston or going to San Francisco, even going to San Diego, where there are very strong biomedical engineering programs, but where the cost of living would make it extremely challenging to live independent of my stipend.

09:33 Erika: Additionally, I eliminated any program that had to add on top of the NSF GRFP to meet the standard of living. So that’s something that I don’t think a lot of people know. The NSF GRFP is already above the average stipend in most cases, but in some schools or programs where the cost of living is so high, they have to add on top of that. And so I was like, that means that even if I’m making above average, that’s still not enough to cover the cost of living in this area. So I eliminated those, which is how I landed at Duke.

10:07 Emily: I’m really glad you brought that up. I was thinking, you know, maybe you’re looking at, you know, $32K everywhere and then, oh, wow. It’s an easy choice to go to Durham over, you know, Boston or San Francisco or something. But even knowing that you were going to get a supplement above that, that’s really great that you consider that as well, because you’re right. Like if you look at the median cost of living in Durham, I’m pretty sure for a single person it’s still below $32K, or even below $30K, maybe at this point, I haven’t looked at the data super recently, but I know that when I was there, I did look at the living wage database from MIT. I think when I started at Duke, my stipend was $24,000, because I was getting the base stipend from the department, but I believe the living wage was something like 18, $19,000.

10:45 Emily: And so it was well above that number for a single person. That is not the situation when you go to these more high cost of living cities, but also just graduate programs that don’t pay super well. Duke pays fine for its base stipend as far as I’m aware. Okay. So I’m glad we, you know, we’re seeing how intentional you are when you are going into the selection of graduate school. Now we’re going to go back to where you are, you know, you’re entering graduate school. You have the student loan debt kind of hanging above you and you’ve talked about, you know, what motivated you. What was the exact goal that you set regarding your student loans? Did you want to pay them off entirely? Did you want to pay them off partially? Did you want to be doing retirement savings? Like what was your financial goal at that time?

Student Loan Goals

11:25 Erika: This is a great question, Emily, and I love this because it does break down where my mind was. So I had two buckets of student loans, the first were my own personal federally secured student loans, the second bucket were parent plus secured federal loans. And my parents made it very clear that I was expected to pay back both of those. So they were not going to pay back the parent plus loans. I was expected to cover both of them. The parent plus loan was in essence, a loan that they gave me through the federal government. And so my strategy initially was just to pay off the parent plus loans because I said, if I can lower the debt that I owe my parents or the federal government through my parents, then I’ll be in a much better shape. Additionally, those were the largest loans that I had. So I think I had one that was $20,000 and one that was about $25,000 in parent plus loans. My own personal federal loans were much smaller, you know, by comparison. So I said, it’d be great if, while I was in grad school, I could just pay those off. That was stage one.

12:31 Emily: Yeah. And so just to gain a little bit more clarity here. So your student loans that were in your name, those were deferred because you were in graduate school. Were they also subsidized? It wasn’t like you only took out the subsidized portion?

12:43 Erika: No, I had subsidized and unsubsidized loans.

12:46 Emily: Okay. So part of it subsidized, part of it’s un-subsidized. And then the parent loans that your parents had, those are not in deferment because they’re not yours, technically. So it’s so interesting. So you sort of considered yourself to be in repayment because your parents were in repayment for that portion of the loans. Do you remember what that minimum, like the minimum payment that they had to make that you were trying to make for them, was when you started?

13:08 Erika: Yeah, so actually, because I am the obsessive person that I am, I made a massive spreadsheet, which is something that I recommend to anyone who’s in debt, right? Making a spreadsheet of every single loan, all of the interest and all of the, you know, what the minimum payment is. So at the time, just for my parent plus loans, not my un-subsidized personalized loans, the payment was around $250 a month. The interest rates were low. So it wasn’t that high of a number.

Reducing Housing Expenses and Increasing Income

13:38 Emily: Okay. So let’s sort of progress in time through graduate school. What did you start doing during graduate school to, because I know you did, how did you increase your income? You’re already on the NSF GRFP, but I know you did even more to increase your income.

13:54 Erika: Yeah. So I was very fortunate to be encouraged to look outside of the box. And so when you look outside of the box, you start thinking about what are the most expensive items in my budget and how can I eliminate or dramatically reduce those? And for most people, the most expensive item is where you live. And so I applied to be a graduate resident at Duke, which is a very awesome program. I highly recommend it if you’re in grad school, look in to see if your university has a graduate resident program, because it allowed me to connect better with the undergraduate community, but most importantly, it allowed me to live for free. And so I applied and was awarded that role. And the first year was very challenging, but I served as a graduate resident for four out of the five years of my PhD. That was one major prong.

14:45 Emily: Yeah. Wow. So you completely eliminated your housing expense. That’s incredible. And I’m actually thinking, did that role play a part in your subsequent faculty applications? Like did that come up at all later on? Was it an asset, I guess, on your CV as it is what I’m asking?

15:00 Erika: Yes. It was an asset on my CV due to my familiarity with the administration and the structure as it relates to undergraduate curriculum and undergraduate engagement. And it also bridged me into serving as the Duke University Graduate and Professional Young Trustee. So it definitely allowed me to keep my hands in many pots at Duke and then it allowed me to leverage those opportunities into a faculty position.

15:32 Emily: Yeah. I love it when I can find something that benefits someone both financially and on the CV, and for future funding applications or, you know, whatever it might be. Did you do anything else on the increasing income side?

15:44 Erika: Yes. So the second prong of my approach was I sort of started serving as a house sitter or pet sitter. So this was a hustle that I was not able to maintain. Just because it took so much bandwidth. I was in lab, you know, a lot of time that I was also serving as a graduate resident, which took when I started out about 20 hours a week. So it was a tremendous time commitment. But I essentially wrote how much of the job was worth. And I wrote it in big letters and I just posted it on my door. And I said, you know, whenever you want to complain, just look at that dollar amount. And then during years two and three, I would house sit for professors for different professionals who were going out of town or who were in transient positions, watching their pets, doing things around their houses. So those are the main ways that I accelerated my debt repayment plan.

16:40 Emily: And you said that you didn’t maintain the house and pet sitting. It was too time intensive. Was that the main reason?

16:45 Erika: Yes. The house and pet sitting, I just found that, you know, in life you’re juggling a few balls and then you throw in the graduate resident ball, and then you throw in the stresses of graduate school and trying to complete your PhD. And then I threw in this other ball of house sitting and pet sitting. So it was just one too many balls and I had to think, what can I let drop? And it honestly wasn’t worth the time commitment always. So I definitely let it drop.

17:08 Emily: Yeah. Very, very strategic.

Commercial

17:13 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. This announcement is for prospective and first-year graduate students. My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society, offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s four-step grad boss method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, up-level your productivity, and master time management. I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course titled, “Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School.” It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school. If this all sounds great to you, please register at theacademicsociety.com/emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join Grad School Prep, if you’d like to go a step further. Again, that’s theacademicsociety.com/E M I L Y for my affiliate link for the course. Now, back to our interview.

Anything Else to Control Expenses?

18:40 Emily: Okay. So that’s on the income side. Did you do anything else on the, you know, controlling expenses, decreasing expenses side of the equation?

18:47 Erika: Yes, even though I purchased my car, I paid off my car within the first year that I had the loan. So that was really important to me because at the time that was my highest interest debt. And then I actually didn’t drive that much because I didn’t want to pay for maintenance of the car. So I think I got my oil changed about every 12 to 18 months. And because I drove that infrequently, I would, you know, get a ride with friends or I would just walk to a location or I would take, you know, some of the commuter trains into downtown. Commuter buses, excuse me, into downtown. And so I basically decreased my use of the car. And then also my friends know I’m pretty cheap or frugal as a person. So I ate out a lot, but I strategically ate out. So part of the graduate resident job comes with a food stipend. And so I would have meetings or hang out with friends, but it’d be on campus where I could use my meal points. And then also a part of the role was also facilitating community development. So that meant ordering food. And so I would go to the events because that was part of my job. But if there were leftovers, I would take that food and that would be lunch for the week. So I reduced my food expenses and I reduced my transportation expenses.

Balance Sheet and Loans at the End of Grad School

20:00 Emily: Yeah. I think the taking leftovers home from events is a very classic grad student. I think a lot of people are employing that strategy, but you combined it with the, “Oh no, I have a job that actually pays me to eat on occasion.” Okay. So let’s then jump ahead to the end of graduate school. What was your balance sheet at the time? How did you do against these student loans?

20:21 Erika: Yeah, so by the end of graduate school, I had completely eliminated my student loan debt, my parent plus loans and my personal loans. And I had, I think it was still around six or $7,000 saved.

20:35 Emily: Okay.

20:36 Erika: So positive net worth.

20:38 Emily: Yeah. Complete debt elimination. That’s amazing. Congratulations on achieving that goal. And obviously you, I mean, to pay off $65,000 of debt during graduate school while on a graduate student stipend, it’s just, it’s an amazing, amazing accomplishment. I did, if the listeners are interested and you want motivation for your own debt repayment journey during graduate school, I did actually do an interview back in season one with Dr. Jenni Rinker, who also went to Duke, who also had the NSF GRFP. And she also paid off, I think it was yeah, in the low sixties thousand dollars of student loan debt, while in graduate school. She had a different approach than yours. I think she was like a major, major side hustler, whereas you went this like RA route. They both can work fantastically. So really happy to have that. And actually also from season one, there’s another example of an interview I did with an RA. And he also had amazing benefits associated with his resident advisor position.

Would You Have Done it Again the Same Way?

21:26 Emily: So, okay. I still want to think about you back in 2018 when you defended, you’ve conquered the student loan debt. Would you have done it again the same way?

21:35 Erika: I would do it again the same way, because the skills that I’ve learned through the process of accumulating that debt and then paying it off are now with me today. So I apply them in different ways, but I think showing that I could be disciplined over wh at, at the time, seemed like a massive amount of debt to me has transitioned my discipline in so many different ways. So I’m grateful for the experience. Sometimes you kind of need to be slowed down or you need to learn a lesson. So I look at my student loan debt as the lesson that I needed to learn. And then I just try to apply those skills in many different ways.

22:14 Emily: I feel like, so when I finished my PhD, like literally, like when I passed my defense, like finished my PhD, I had this feeling, a very expansive feeling of, I can do literally anything. I can conquer any mountain, like in front of me. I felt that way a couple of other times in my life. But in the financial arena, I don’t know if I’ve had that. But did you have a moment like that? Like with the last payment that you made, did you feel, you know, you had these insights and so forth. Can you tell us about that?

22:44 Erika: Yeah. When I made the final payment, it was kind of anticlimactic. And maybe this is the scarcity mindset in me, but I have sisters and family members who had been working and contributing to their retirement accounts. I hadn’t done any of that. I was just focused on eliminating debt. And so I was like 27, I think, when I defended. No, 26, when I defended and I was kind of like, okay, now I’m really behind because I don’t have any retirement savings. So it kind of just clicked, you know, gears from debt repayment to retirement savings. And it wasn’t quite as I think, as momentous as I would’ve hoped.

Finances in Marriage

26:07 Emily: Yeah. Is there anything else you want to tell us about like, sort of what your life looks like now, financially?

26:12 Erika: Yes. So I got married, which has been an interesting journey. I think it’s been fun. But I love talking about finances. So I immerse that immediately into my relationship. And my husband actually came into the marriage with student loan debt. So there was a moment of panic where I was like, I don’t want to go back to that. And so we came up with a plan to basically, even though we’re dual income, we only live off of one income, and we attacked his debt. And now we’re just full steam ahead planning for really important things in our lives. And so I’m anti-debt now in a major way. And so we were talking about, oh, maybe in few years, we’ll buy a car. And so I’m like, okay, what’s our savings plan to afford this car? Because I’m not going back into debt.

27:01 Erika: Or we talk about going on trips. So later this summer, we’re going to Hawaii, which we’re really excited about. But we are trying to save and plan for that now. Right? All of the excursions and activities we want to go on, I’m not charging them. I want to have the cash to pay for them. And so that means we have to make sacrifices in other areas, but it’s been really fun, fine tuning. What are our shared, you know, drivers, what do we enjoy spending money on, and what things do we not care about as much? So that’s what we are continually working on now as a couple.

27:34 Emily: Yeah, that sounds amazing. I don’t want to put this in like a light where like, “Oh, it’s a great experience to have a low-income for a long time during graduate school with no hope of increasing it.” It’s not great. It’s not great. The silver lining on that very, very, very dark cloud is that in some situations you can embrace some good habits, maybe develop your mindset and so forth. And it really does sound like what you did. You mentioned the word discipline earlier. So you developed your discipline again over this long debt repayment journey. And again, within, you know, the confined circumstances that you had financially during graduate school. So I think that’s amazing. I certainly also developed really good financial habits during graduate school that have continued. And I’m happy now with a higher income to have them serving me well at this point because it’s really gratifying to have a higher income to work with when you have those good habits in place.

Moore Wealth

28:24 Emily: So you mentioned at the top that you have a company now, Moore Wealth, would you please tell us more about what you do through that?

28:30 Erika: Yeah, so Moore Wealth is kind of my love letter to what I wish I would have done when I was a younger student. And so I think one of the plights of education in the United States is a lack of financial literacy training. Like I made the joke the other day, we learned how to write cursive, but we don’t learn how to budget, which is insane because you don’t need to write cursive in life, but you do need to know how to budget if you’re going to, you know, have command over your finances. And so through Moore Wealth, we have a two-pronged approach to addressing this. Our mission is just empowerment through financial literacy. And so the first prong is our scholarships and fellowships. And so I was really excited because I finally have the income to give my money away to people who I think are deserving.

29:17 Erika: And so we established a nonprofit organization to basically grant scholarships and we had our first cohort that was awarded in February. And so that’s a lifelong dream of mine that we’re doing through Moore Wealth. And then the second prong is financial seminars, mainly targeted to high school students. So before you even get to college, take a step back and figure out what you want your life to look like and how finances are going to play a in that. And that’s what we do. So seminars and scholarships, and that’s the company, that’s the mission of Moore Wealth.

29:49 Emily: That sounds so incredible, amazing that you decided to set that up after having this journey. Tell us more about the scholarships and fellowships. Like who are the kinds of candidates you give them to, and then how does that benefit them? What do they get to do with it?

30:02 Erika: Yeah, great question. So right now we had our inaugural class that was awarded in February. And so we solicit proposals and we solicited proposals from over 50 universities. It was actually a tremendous response. That was kind of unexpected for this first year. And we awarded them to anyone who was entering into or completing a degree granting program. So we are specific in that terminology because we consider certificates and trade school or nontraditional routes of access also really important. And so it’s a very inclusive scholarship at this point. There was a Google form that’s on our webpage where people had to respond to a series of short answer questions. And then we had a blinded review that basically scored the essays based on the rubric that was established by the scholarship committee. Those were the only requirements or prerequisites for entering into the scholarship. We did have a GPA minimum of a 3.00 on a 4.0 scale. But other than that, there were no limits in terms of if the person was in graduate school, if the person was entering high school, if the person was completing their plumbing certificate, or anything else like that, we wanted to be as inclusive as possible.

31:24 Emily: And is it a grant that they then do work with, or is it just completely goes into your pocket? You can do whatever you want with it?

31:32 Erika: Yes. At this stage we awarded each of the recipients, they did have to send a follow up about how they’re going to try to implement financial literacy skills that they learned in their reflection essays into their life. And what we’re hoping to do in the future as this builds out is actually have small courses for them and potentially get them up to date with their financial literacy skills. And yeah, so currently they’ve gotten their money and they’ve reflected on financial literacy concepts. But to date, that’s it for that first cohort. So we’re looking to add additional responses and interactions with them in the future.

Best Advice for An Early-Career PhD

32:11 Emily: Incredible, wonderful. We can easily tell the passion that you have for this material in your voice. I’m so excited that you’re in the space as well. Erika, the question that I ask all of my interviewees at the end of our conversation is what is your best advice for an early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely else.

32:33 Erika: Yes. I love this question and I love the responses that you’ve gotten in the podcast so far to it. So I’ll echo what a few other people have said, which is to say that the advice that I have for you is two-pronged: if you have debt, understand what your debt is. Generate a spreadsheet, get clarity on that debt. It’s so important to do now than just ignoring it. And I know it’s hard because you’re like, “I live in denial. It’s the best thing, you know, it’s the best. Ignorance is bliss.” But getting clarity on your debt really can inform what lifestyle you need to live in the future and what lifestyle you want to live and how your finances interact with that. The second piece of advice, if you don’t have debt: contribute to a retirement savings account. This is something I wish I would have done. I didn’t have a lot of extra money, but I know that there were opportunities that I passed up because of ignorance and because of fear for how to interact with a Roth IRA, for example. And so you can never get back time. And so while you’re in grad school, I really recommend just contributing to a Roth IRA if you have any extra money.

33:41 Emily: Absolutely, absolutely. Totally co-Sign each of those pieces of advice. Wonderful. Erika, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. And I hope that the listeners will find you after this. What is your website?

33:53 Erika: Yes. My website is Moore Wealth, M O O R E W E A L T H.org. And you can also just email me or find me on Twitter. My handle is @DrErika E R I K A Moore M O O R E. And then you’ll find more information there.

34:15 Emily: Wonderful. Thank you again for joining me.

34:18 Erika: Thank you, Dr. Roberts.

Outtro

34:25 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license prerecorded workshops on taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps! The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Entering a PhD Program with Significant Debt and Investments

by

In this episode, Emily interviews Alexandra Savinkina, who is starting a PhD program at Yale University after completing a master’s degree and working for several years. She has spent the last few years pursuing Public Service Loan Forgiveness while contributing to retirement accounts and saving and is therefore entering her PhD with significant student loan debt and significant assets. Alexandra and Emily discuss Alexandra’s financial goals during her PhD, including how much to spend on rent, financing a car vs. purchasing it with cash, whether to defer student loans or stay in an income-driven repayment plan, and how to continue to invest for retirement while in grad school.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

PhD debt and investments

Teaser

00:00 Alexandra: Yeah, I think it will definitely be a lifestyle decrease. A lot of my spending, not in the last year, has gone to things like travel. And I also think that the longer that I’ve had a salary and have, you know, my social circle has been people with salaries.

Introduction

00:20 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season 10, episode five, and today my guest is Alexandra Savinkina, who is starting a PhD program at Yale University after completing a master’s degree and working for several years. Alexandra spent the last few years pursuing public service loan forgiveness while contributing to retirement accounts and saving, and is therefore entering her PhD with significant student loan debt and significant assets. We discuss Alexandra’s financial goals during her PhD, including how much is spent on rent, financing a car versus purchasing it with cash, whether to defer student loans or stay in an income-driven repayment plan, and how to continue to invest for retirement while in grad school. This episode will be instructive for anyone anticipating or in the midst of a career transition or financial crossroads.

00:34 Emily: At the start of a new academic year, I always like to bring up tax considerations, especially for new graduate students. If you haven’t yet, go back and listen to season 10 episode two of this podcast titled, “What to Do at the Start of the Academic Year to Make Next Tax Season Easier.” If you have already started or switched onto fellowship funding for your stipend or salary, please take note of the upcoming quarterly estimated tax deadline of September 15th, 2021. To determine whether you are required to pay estimated tax, fill out the estimated tax worksheet on page eight of form 1040ES. If you need any help with the worksheet, consider joining my workshop at PFforPhDs.com/QETax. The live Q&A call for this quarter is this coming Sunday, September 12th. This is the best time to join this workshop to definitively answer whether you are required to pay estimated tax and how much income tax you can expect to pay in 2021. Again, if you’d like my help with figuring this out, the best place to go is P F F O R P H D s.com/Q for quarterly, E for estimated, T A X. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Alexandra Savinkina.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:46 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Alexandra Savinkina. Our topic today is starting a PhD at a slightly older age. So Alexandra is 30 and she’s starting her PhD this upcoming fall in epidemiology. So I’m really excited to have her on. And Alexandra, would you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

03:04 Alexandra: Sure! Hi, I’m Alexandra. As you know, I’ll be starting my PhD this fall. I’m really excited about it. I got my bachelor’s degree back in 2013 in biology, and then during that time was working in an HIV virology lab and thinking about graduate school, but knew I wanted to go into the sciences. I was pretty sure I didn’t want to do bench work forever, and so instead of making that decision right away, I did a year abroad teaching in the South Pacific. And experiences there as well as past experiences kind of brought me to public health. So I did my Masters in Public Health at Emory University, right after getting back from the south Pacific. And then I worked at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for three years. And at that point started thinking more seriously about a PhD, but instead pivoted a little bit, moved to Boston, and have been working in academia for the last couple of years before really making that decision to pursue that PhD program now.

Why is Now the Right Time for the PhD?

04:14 Emily: I love that you’ve been out of undergrad, out of your masters for several years now. You have a really solid start to a career, actually. So why is it that you decided that this was the right time for the PhD?

04:25 Alexandra: Yeah, so I actually did apply to PhD programs to be totally transparent. Two years ago, I got into some programs, I didn’t get into other programs. And when I was weighing my options at that point, there wasn’t really any program that was a perfect fit in terms of both something that financially I was comfortable with in terms of stipend and really excited about the program itself. At the same time, my partner matched into a medical residency program in Boston. And when I was kind of weighing my options in that way, I hadn’t been accepted to any programs on the east coast, but I realized all of the programs I was really excited about were in the Northeast. So I started looking at jobs and ended up just accidentally finding something that when I read the job description was like exactly what I wanted to do.

05:22 Alexandra: But while working in this job and being like very solidly in academia, I think I’ve been able to realize that every single piece of the job that I really like is a piece that if I want to continue that as a career, I’m going to need a higher degree for. And so I think that’s really what’s led me to be like, okay, I definitely want to do this. And the upside is that during the last two years, I’ve really been able to grow my network, grow my skillset, and I was able to get into my first choice PhD program both from two years ago and from applying this around.

05:59 Emily: Amazing! What restraint you have, I feel like, for that application cycle from two years ago to get into some places, but then just to say, no, ultimately. Like, I just feel like you feel you’re so committed to that point, right? To the idea of going to graduate school, that I really commend you for holding out for what you really wanted in and you got it and that’s amazing. Congratulations!

06:21 Alexandra: Thank you. Yeah, it was very scary. It was a scary decision to make. So on this side of it, I’m pretty happy, but when I was kind of waiting to hear back from programs this time around, I think there was kind of that anxiety hanging over me of like, what if I don’t get in anywhere? And I did get in places two years ago, so I’m glad it worked out the way it did.

Tell Us About Your Balance Sheet: Assets and Liabilities

06:43 Emily: Yeah. I really can’t imagine that anybody would be a weaker candidate having, you know, another two years of work experience. Plus, you know, I think we could hear the clarity in what you were just saying about, you know, your career plans at this point. Maybe you didn’t have that or had that to a lesser degree, you know, two years before, but that’s amazing. Again, congratulations. So let’s talk about your money. You have money, and not money, at this point in your life. Your balance sheet is a little bit more complex than maybe when you’re coming right out of undergrad. So yeah. Tell us about, just give us a quick overview of your balance sheet, your assets, your liabilities, then we’ll talk a little bit more about each of them.

07:20 Alexandra: Yeah, so right now my one big liability are my graduate school loans from my master’s program. Yeah. That’s kind of the one big thing hanging over my head. I don’t really have any other debt right now. And then on the asset side, my assets are split mostly between my retirement savings, both from the 403(b) that I have from my current position. And then I’ve maxed out my Roth IRA every year that I’ve been able to. So for the last three years. And then the other half is sort of in standard savings as well as a long-term investment account and a little bit in short-term, like swing investment, which is just kind of fun money at the moment. But I’m living in Boston right now. I’m moving to New Haven. So my one new big liability is going to be a car that I’m going to need to purchase.

08:17 Emily: Gotcha. Okay, well, let’s start on the liability side. So it makes sense to me that you have student loan debt from a master’s in public health degree. And that is that just from the graduate degree or also from undergrad?

08:32 Alexandra: I had a tiny bit of loans from undergrad, but I’ve paid all of those off. So at this point, it’s just the graduate degree.

Paying Off Student Loan Debt

08:41 Emily: So let’s take this out of the context of you’re heading into graduate school just for a second and talk about, okay. You’ve been in the workforce for several years post-master’s degree. Have you been aggressively trying to pay down that student loan debt, or are you using public service loan forgiveness? Or what has been your plan for that debt?

08:59 Alexandra: Yeah, not aggressively paying it off. The first couple of years, I wish that I’d put a little bit more thought into it. I didn’t, I think at that point, my thinking was I’ll pay it off, but without any kind of really exact plan. For the last few years, I’ve really focused that more. And I am going for public service loan forgiveness. My job at the CDC did not qualify because it was a fellowship position, but my current job does. And so I’m about two years in, and I’ve gone through the paperwork. I’ve kind of stayed vigilant with that. And so I’m really hoping, I’m almost certain that any job I’ll take post-PhD will qualify. So I’m really trying to go down that path.

09:46 Emily: Yeah. This makes sense to me with your career plans for, ideally, it sounds like staying in academia, or if not, it seems like there’ll be plenty of nonprofit type work for you after that point. Sorry, did you say you were going to stay in academia? Or planning to?

10:01 Alexandra: Great question. I think right now that’s the plan. I want to kind of use this time in PhD to see if that’s really the course I want to be on. But I do love kind of the freedom that academia offers. I need to see if I’m any good at writing grants.

10:18 Emily: Gotcha. Okay. So plan A, academia, otherwise, probably a PSLF qualifying employer. And did you say approximately what that student loan balance was?

10:29 Alexandra: No, it’s right around $80,000.

10:32 Emily: Yeah. Okay. So I did an episode a season or two ago with Meagan Landress who’s a certified student loan professional. And so she shared with us her rule of thumb that she does with her consulting, which is around one and a half times your full income. So post-PhD income, your expected income. If your student loan debt balances one and a half times or higher, then that, again, it’s a rule of thumb, not super precise, but makes you a good candidate for income-driven repayment programs with forgiveness. Even down to about one times your income would be, if you had an opportunity to use PSLF, that could also be a great option versus paying them off aggressively. And since of course, you know, your ultimate career several years away, you probably don’t have necessarily a good handle on what that salary is going to be. And certainly in the intervening time, your salary is not going to be high during the PhD. So that decision makes sense. And obviously PSLF has a really popular program with academics.

Retirement Contributions, Investing, and Savings

11:30 Emily: Okay. So we have the student loan debt balance, but instead of paying that down aggressively, you’ve instead, it sounds like, been focusing on building up the assets side of the balance sheet. So you mentioned, you know, some retirement with your employer, Roth IRA contributions, and also taxable investments and cash savings, which sounds like a great sort of mix to have at this point. Is there anything that you want to share with us about how you’ve built that up or why you focused on that in the meantime?

11:57 Alexandra: Yeah, I think honestly coming straight out of my master’s program, it wasn’t especially difficult because, while I wasn’t making like a huge salary, it was hugely more than I’ve ever made before in my entire life. And so I think I’d been so used to living really frugally that it was easy to kind of save some money. And once I started and I started learning a little bit more about investment and about the value of money, I think I just made it a priority. So one thing I do is I just automatically have money transfer from my checking account to my savings account every single time I’ve a paycheck. And then I have money transferred directly from my savings account to an investment account as well. So it’s not even something that I think about. Like, it just happens automatically. I know that it’s going to happen. It happens when I know I have money in the account, so I don’t have to worry about like overdrafting. And so I think that’s been one of the best ways for me to do it is just kind of consistency.

Financial Predictions for Graduate School

13:05 Emily: Yeah. I love that strategy, obviously, automating as much as you can with your finances. So let’s shift now to talking about graduate school again, what I guess financial predictions have you made? So we’re recording this in June, 2021. So you’re still, it sounds like probably a couple months away from moving and starting your program. Can you share with us like what your stipend is going to be, and have you put together any of those big rock expenses? Like, do you have your housing set already? You mentioned a car that you’re going to purchase. Yeah. Can you give us kind of a picture there?

13:38 Alexandra: Yeah. So my stipend is $38,000. So my housing I do have set. My rent will be $800, and I’ll be living with a couple of other PhD students. I made the decision to live with people to save a little bit of money and also on the personal end, my boyfriend’s still in Boston. So I do plan on kind of going back and forth. So it didn’t make financial sense to necessarily put more money into living by myself. And then the other big thing will be the car. I’m planning on buying a used car, but I want something that will last me a little bit of time, and I’m a little bit anxious on the car side. I haven’t really owned a car in a long time. Haven’t really had to take care of one. So I want something that’s not too old and too unreliable. So I’m looking at about 10 to $15,000 on that. And I’m still sort of going back and forth between just paying it out right from my savings or financing to just have that monthly payment, which should be affordable.

14:41 Emily: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like with the stipend as relatively high, that’s among the higher stipends that I hear right now. Which is awesome. Congratulations. And then yeah, the rent being pretty reasonable for that level of income. Yeah. It sounds like you could afford the debt payment if you wanted to. But it also sounds like you have the option of paying in cash. So yeah. What are your thoughts there? So, in general, I kind of don’t love the idea of graduate students holding debt that they don’t need to. That is to say, debt that like, they need to actually be making payments on like a car payment. But, you know, you could do it. The other thing about that car purchase is I think it’s a lot more painful to part with cash than it is to finance something. And so you might end up with a lower-priced purchase if you told yourself it has to be in cash. So I don’t know. Where do you think you’re going to come down on that?

15:35 Alexandra: I’m really torn on it. I think part of it is almost mental. I think I know that if I have a car payment I need to pay, that money will go towards that car payment. I think I’m a little bit less certain that if I don’t have that car payment, that same amount of money will go into savings. And so I think that’s the one place where, and I don’t think that’s necessarily a good financial decision. But I think mentally that’s one of the reasons why I’m considering financing. But I agree with you. I am a little bit nervous about taking on more debt. And so I’m still sort of on the fence about it. I have been slowly putting away money. So I will have the cash kind of handy outside of investments if I do choose to do it out in cash.

16:27 Emily: And if you end up financing the car, will you keep that money in cash or will you invest it?

16:33 Alexandra: That’s the other thing. I would most likely transfer that into investments. And so there is some question about kind of where that money would be making the best value.

16:42 Emily: Yeah. So it’s more about like maybe leveraging debt, not just yeah, having cash, but also paying debt at the same time.

Commercial

16:52 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or post-bacc and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item number one: Fill out the estimated tax worksheet in form 1040ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2021 and tell you whether you’re required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15th, 2021. Action item number two: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate named savings account for your future tax payments, calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax, and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives. If you need some help with the estimated tax worksheet, or want to ask me a question, please join my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for fellowship recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. Go to PFforPhDs.com/QETax to learn more about and join the workshop. Now, back to our interview.

Expected Expenses and Lifestyle Changes

18:31 Emily: Do you have any idea about the rest of your expenses? It sounds like maybe you’re sort of a more naturally frugal person. So have you made any predictions on that front about like, you know, general spending money or like groceries? Or I guess what I’m asking is, do you think you will be able to keep a similar lifestyle to what you’ve been living the last few years, or will you actually have to take a lifestyle decrease and be a little bit more frugal on the lower salary?

18:57 Alexandra: Yeah, I think it will definitely be a lifestyle decrease. A lot of my spending, not in the last year, has gone to things like travel. And I also think that the longer that I’ve had a salary and, you know, my social circle has been people with salaries, eating out has become more expensive, trips have become more expensive. And that’s one of the things I think I’m going to need to be more careful of because, you know, most of my social circle aren’t grad students, but I will be, which is different than the last time I was a grad student where my entire social circle also made no money. So I think it’ll definitely be a little bit of cutting back on some of, kind of more of the luxury items I’ve gotten more used to. I’ve always been pretty frugal in terms of big expenses. Things like rent, bigger kind of monthly payments. But I have kind of splurged on some things which I’ll need to be a little bit more careful on, I think.

20:03 Emily: So, when you move, you’ll have a whole new cohort of peers. So, they will be making probably exactly the same amount of money as you, right? The people in your program, or more or less. So, you’re really talking about your partner and your friends in Boston and maybe other places around the country. Is that right?

20:19 Alexandra: Yeah. Yeah.

20:20 Emily: Yeah. So I’m thinking that it may be fairly easy for you to keep those day-to-day or month-to-month expenses on the lower side, since that will be, you know, the people you’re interacting with there in New Haven. But yeah, you may have to be pretty intentional about budgeting for travel, for example, or whatever are things you might be doing with these like older friends.

20:40 Alexandra: Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, I really don’t want to be dipping into my savings for any kind of normal life expenses. So, I think I will just need to be a little bit more strict and careful about that. I do think it’s very doable. It is a very decent stipend comparatively, so that’s really nice.

21:05 Emily: Yeah. In the grad student world, it’s a great stipend. In the working world, it’s a low salary.

21:11 Alexandra: Yeah.

Travel Hacking and Asset Building

21:12 Emily: Yeah. Well, have you gotten into travel hacking at all? Is that something you practiced earlier on?

21:18 Alexandra: I’m not sure what that is.

21:19 Emily: Oh, okay. Yeah, so travel hacking is basically just sort of structuring credit card rewards to figure out how to pay for travel, either get it for free or super inexpensively. So like, it sounds like you haven’t gotten into that game yet.

21:35 Alexandra: I actually do have one really great travel credit card, and it is the card that I use for almost all of my purchases and it does purchase a good amount of my plane tickets, which is nice. So yeah, I guess I just didn’t know there was a term for it, so a little bit. Yeah. And that helps.

21:55 Emily: Yeah. I’m thinking that, as a graduate student, it might be a way to enhance that travel aspect of your life without necessarily spending much more money. Although it is difficult to turn credit cards as a graduate student because your spending is going to be on the lower side. So like meeting signup bonuses. Anyway, if you’re interested, we’ll link in the show notes, I’ve done a couple of different interviews with people who have travel hacked as graduate students through credit card reward accumulation. So anyway, only a strategy good for someone who is really strict about their credit card usage, but very on top of things. So it sounds like you are that way anyway. Okay. So what financial goals do you think you’ll pursue during your PhD? You already stated one which is not dip into savings, so live off of the stipend on an ongoing basis. Yeah. Anything else that you think you might want to do either in terms of building assets or the step that you’ll have maybe during grad school?

22:49 Alexandra: Yeah. So in terms of assets, yeah, my biggest one is not to dip into my savings. I think beyond that, if possible, I would really like to keep funding a Roth. I don’t know if I’ll be able to, I’m not sure what the mechanism of my stipend will be yet. I know I’ll be able to find one for 2021. But if I’m able to, after that, I would like to do that.

Non-W2 Income Eligible for IRA

23:13 Emily: Actually, let me pause there for a second. So, are you referring to having W2 income versus fellowship income?

23:22 Alexandra: Yeah.

23:22 Emily: So the good news, and this may be different from the last time you were in grad school, is that fellowship income, non-W2 income, is eligible to be contributed to an IRA as of 2020. So that’s a new like law change. So we’ll link in the show notes the podcast episode where I discuss that. But yeah it changed with the SECURE Act, which was passed at the end of 2019. So, going forward, whatever type of stipend you in grad school, you would be eligible for the IRA all the way through.

23:49 Alexandra: Oh, that’s excellent. Okay. So I think that would be one of my goals. But it sort of ties to the second part of, I am trying to decide what to do with my loans a little bit. Right now, I’m in income-based repayment, and I could stay in income-based repayment and make very low payments monthly, or I could pause my payments completely during graduate school. And I haven’t made the decision of sort of what’s the right move.

Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) Eligibility

24:20 Emily: Yeah. So, I’ve looked into this before. So, I want to ask you, I thought that you had to work full-time, or let’s just say like 30 hours a week or more, to be eligible for a PSLF. Is that not the case?

24:34 Alexandra: Yeah, it is. So I would not be eligible for PSLF during that time, unfortunately. I would, I think, if I stay in income-based repayment, be eligible for like the 20-year forgiveness. So it keeps me on track for that, I guess.

24:52 Emily: But I think, what we’re talking about then is you making, however long your PhD is, five years or whatever it is, five years of payments, that you wouldn’t need to make if PSLF ends up working out. Is that right?

25:06 Alexandra: Yeah. I think the only reason I’m sort of considering it is it does make me nervous that, you know, the balance is going to go up and up and up while I’m in grad school. At the same time, you’re right. It doesn’t make a lot of sense because I’m just paying in money that I don’t need to. So most likely, my thinking was, especially now that I know I can fund a Roth IRA, would be to put my money there.

25:33 Emily: Yeah. I mean, unless your payment was zero, which, I mean, I guess that’s possible. I don’t know exactly how that would work on precisely what your stipend is, but if it was a zero payment, it’s like, oh, well, why not? You know, keep it going. But if it’s anything above zero, yeah, because, well, it’s a gamble, right? Because either PSLF is going to end up working out and you’ll make ultimately, whatever it was, eight more years of payments after your PhD, or it’s not and it would have been a good idea, I guess, to make those payments during your low-earning graduate school years. So yeah, it sounds like you would either be doubling down on PSLF being the route for you, or deciding that that’s too risky and that you want some other backup options.

26:20 Alexandra: Exactly, exactly. So that’s kind of where my thinking is, as well. That said, I think the amount of payment I would be able to make or would need to make in income-based repayment wouldn’t be that high enough to make a huge difference, I don’t think.

Keep Within the Rules of the Game

26:36 Emily: So, it sounds like you’d be sort of like purchasing an insurance policy. Like I’m going to make whatever this low payment is, which is manageable for me on my grad student stipend, as a backup plan to have five more years or whatever it is of payments if PSLF doesn’t work out. Yeah, I guess it depends on how risk-averse you are, right? And how much you believe in the program. Yeah, I haven’t heard anyone propose that strategy to me. So, you may be more risk-averse than other people I’ve spoken to about PSLF, potentially. But I encourage you to go and listen to that interview with Meagan Landress, because it may make you feel a little bit more comfortable with that ballooning payoff balance. Because the way that she talks about it, and the way that people who work in this area and are, you know, strategic about it, it’s just, it’s like playing a game.

27:31 Emily: Like you just have to keep within the rules of the game. And you know, as you said, you’ve been really on top of like getting your income, you know, your employment certified and all of that, so like, it sounds like you have the practice of like complying with PSLF already, so that probably wouldn’t end up being an issue. But yeah, it’s just about like playing the game and manipulating the numbers. And like we talked about with the debt, you know, whether to take out a car loan or whether it be cash and maybe you could invest, it’s a little bit of a leverage situation. You know, keep this student loan debt that ideally would be in part forgiven later on so that you can fund the IRA and do all these things on the asset-building side. So yeah, that episode might make you feel a little bit more comfortable with this, I’m just going to compartmentalize this debt, it is what it is, you know, that kind of approach.

28:19 Alexandra: Yeah, definitely. I do always do better when I don’t really look at it. So yeah, I think I will listen to that episode for sure. And I think even this conversation kind of makes me feel a little bit better about just letting that go for now.

Consider Projected Asset Growth

28:35 Emily: Yeah. And you know, we’re, again, I’m recording this in June, 2021. So you’ve had over a year now of having payments paused. So you’ve had over a year of credit toward your PSLF time and you haven’t been making payments, right? Yeah. So good. You’ve been building up the asset side of the balance sheet, which is exactly, you know, the intention of the program to give people some relief there. So when you volunteered for this episode, you said that you were, you know, a bit nervous about this income decrease, and then also correspondingly not being able to invest as much. So you want to keep the IRA going some level or perhaps even maxing it out if you’re able to, but have you looked at all into how much your existing assets are projected to grow over that five-year period?

29:23 Alexandra: No, I’ve not looked at the five-year. I use Wealthfront for my long-term investment, so I can see like projected growth to retirement, but I haven’t really looked into it over five years at all.

29:38 Emily: Yeah. I think that is another just element add into this, as you’re thinking about whether to invest the money you would spend on a car versus, you know, paying for it in cash versus financing, that kind of decision. And also, as you’re thinking through, you know, your ballooning student loan balance, you thought about those liabilities growing, but yeah. I encourage you to look at how much your assets are expected to grow, because yes, it is a disadvantage in some capacity to be having this, you know, salary decrease to be going to the PhD program, but you already have assets in your corner. You already have what I say is sort of a tailwind at your back in terms of your net worth growing throughout graduate school. So, the income for you is not as important because you know, of course we’re assuming that like the stock market, for example, will go up over five years. Maybe it won’t, it’s a short period of time. But you at least have that possibility of that happening, the likelihood of that happening over a five-year period. So it may make you feel a little bit better about the student loans to see how much the assets are potentially going to grow.

30:40 Alexandra: Yeah. That’s a really, really great point.

Have You Thought About Purchasing a Home?

30:42 Emily: So, I’ll just ask you one more question. Have you thought about purchasing a house, or rather to say, a home?

30:49 Alexandra: No, I am also a little bit commitment-phobic and purchasing a house sounds very frightening to me. That said, my partner just purchased a house in Boston.

31:03 Emily: So you are familiar with the process. Well then, I have one other podcast episode to recommend to you which is way back in season two, I think. So I did an interview with Jonathan Sun who was going into his second-year PhD at Yale, and he purchased a house. And so we talk about the process of doing that and some of the difficulties that he ran into with his fellowship income, which has since we’ve done a lot more work in that area. And it’s a little bit less of an issue now, but anyway, I just mentioned it because having a very decent stipend and New Haven real estate being like maybe approachable. We’ll see, I know everything’s been in a big, like run-up recently, so maybe not, but it’s the kind of market where like, sometimes it’s possible for a grad student to buy. Now that may be not be a good fit for you personally, for whatever reason, but in terms of like, you know, upleveling your finances during graduate school, purchasing a home, and then having as you already plan to, roommates in that house would be a very strong financial move, but not the right fit for everyone.

32:06 Alexandra: Yeah. I think I would be thinking about all of this a little bit differently were I not in a relationship. I think right now my plan is actually to move to New Haven for about a year. And then, the way that the PhD program works is you take courses for the first year and then you’re pretty much working on your dissertation. So I’m hoping to be able to pop back over to Boston for kind of the next few years and just commute into Yale when I need to be there. The pros of which is I probably will save on living expenses after that first year.

32:42 Emily: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. If it’s a one-year stint in New Haven, then absolutely. I mean, you wouldn’t even be able to like purchase because it takes months and months to set that sort of thing up. Yeah, that makes sense if you’re not actually planning on living there. Yeah, very good. Well, I’m really glad to hear this, like, long-term plan from you.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

33:01 Emily: Well Alexandra, I end my interviews by asking my guests, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on in the interview or it could be something completely new.

33:12 Alexandra: Yeah. So I think one thing is that I already kind of touched on, I think it really helps me to have all of my savings and investment money automatically taken out of my account. So that it’s just something that happens that I don’t have to think about. I think another thing that has always helped me, especially when moving from one position to another or from one place to another, is I do a line budget for like a month or a couple months where I’ll write down every single thing that I buy and where that falls into my budget. And that has really, I think, helped me stay within my budget as salaries have shifted or locations have shifted. And I plan to do the same again when I start my PhD to make sure that I’m living within my means and able to make those savings payments.

34:03 Emily: Yeah. That’s an awesome, awesome tip. Well, it was a delight to have you on Alexandra. Thank you so much for sharing like your thoughts about this upcoming period. I think it’s going to be really relatable to other people who have been in the workforce for several years, and definitely other people who have had, you know, debt from previous degrees and heading back into graduate school. So thank you so much for being so open about this and best of luck to you this fall.

34:25 Alexandra: No problem. Thank you so much. This was really great and really helpful.

Outtro

34:35 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license prerecorded workshops on taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps! The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This Non-Budgeting PhD Accomplishes Major Financial Goals

by

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Alana Rister, a PhD in chemistry and the founder of the Science Grad School Coach. Alana and Emily discuss two major aspects of Alana’s finances from grad school and her postdoc: student loans and a condo purchase. Alana’s main financial goal during grad school was paying down her variable interest rate private student loans, and the strategies she used will be very accessible to grad students who, like her, don’t budget. Alana and her partner took a gamble in purchasing a condo when they moved for her postdoc, and then sold it less than a year later when she left that position. Listen through to the end of the interview to learn the connection between that condo purchase and the Science Grad School Coach!

Links Mentioned in this Episode

accomplish major financial goals

Teaser

00:00 Alana: Let’s preface this with I am not a budgeter. I’m really, it very much stresses me out because I’ve never been at a point where I’m really financially secure. So I’ve never been at a point where I’ve made a reasonable budget and there’s been a positive at the end.

Introduction

00:24 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season 10, episode four, and today my guest is Dr. Alana Rister, a PhD in chemistry and the founder of the Science Grad School Coach. We discuss two major aspects of Elena’s finances from grad school and her postdoc: student loans and a condo purchase. Alana’s main financial goal during grad school was paying down her variable interest rate private student loans, and the strategies she used will be very accessible to grad students who, like her, don’t budget. Alana and her partner took a gamble in purchasing a condo when they moved for her postdoc, and then sold it less than a year later when she left that position. Listen through to the end of the interview to learn the connection between that condo purchase and the Science Grad School Coach.

01:19 Emily: I have my first two speaking engagements of the 2021-2022 academic year coming up this week. Speaking live to and with graduate students and PhDs is my absolute favorite activity within my business, even in a remote format. I’ve built out a slate of offerings this year that I’m incredibly proud of. My flagship seminar is the graduate student and postdoc’s guide to personal finance. And it’s typically what I recommend to first-time hosts, as it covers a broad array of personal finance topics, which of course I discuss through the lens of the PhD experience. I also have four deep-dive seminars on financial goals, investing, debt repayment, and cashflow. I offer these in three formats, which is new for me this year. I can deliver this material as a one-hour live lecture and Q&A, a two-hour live workshop, or a flipped classroom model in which I give access to the workshop videos and individual exercises in advance, and then hold a live call exclusively for discussion and Q&A. I’m really pleased to be able to work with grad students and PhD is to create actionable steps to improve their finances in each of these areas.

02:31 Emily: These four deep-dive seminars work very well as a series, but can also be booked individually. If any of those seminars sound interesting to you, please recommend me as a speaker to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, or department. It’s super easy and relatively inexpensive to arrange a remote event with me. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhds.com/speaking, or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really, really appreciate these recommendations. They go very far to support Personal Finance for PhDs so I can continue to provide great content, like this podcast, for free. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Alana Rister.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:23 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Alana Rister of Science Grad School Coach. And it’s really exciting that she volunteered to be on the podcast. We are going to talk about some of her financial decisions from the past, a decision from grad school, a decision up from her postdoc, and I hope we are all going to learn a lot from her stories. So Alana, thank you so much for joining me. And will you introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

03:45 Alana: Yeah. So thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. As you said, I’m Dr. Alana Rister. I am the founder of the Science Grad School Coach. And I got my PhD in chemistry in 2019 from the University of Nebraska. And since then, went on to a postdoc at East Carolina University, and have since taken a few months off to you found the Science Grad School Coach. And that’s kind of where I am today.

04:16 Emily: Yeah. And, by the time this airs, you will be in a new position. Do you want to tell us more about that?

04:21 Alana: I will. So I’m actually going back to where I got my PhD from, and I’m going to be a metabolomics and proteomics research specialist. So I’m getting to go back into research. I’m basically doing a lot of working on doing metabolomics and proteomics for other professors. So I’m going to be a predominantly lab position getting to do fun research.

04:45 Emily: That sounds awesome. I always thought when I was going through my PhD process that I would love to be, I would call it a staff scientist. Is that a fair term? Yeah, I would like to be a staff scientist somewhere. Of course my career went in a different direction, but I find that kind of position to be really attractive. So congratulations!

05:02 Alana: Thank you!

Student Loan Situation at the Start of Grad School

05:03 Emily: Alright. So the first subject we’re talking about today is student loans. Everyone’s favorite. We’re actually going to focus on your private student loans, and we’ll get into why in a moment, but give us the full kind of picture of what your student loan situation was coming into grad school.

05:20 Alana: Yeah, so I actually went to a private undergraduate university. And I did that because it was actually the same for me to go there as my in-state public university, because I got a bunch of scholarships to the private and no scholarships to the public. So I went there, but I still had to rack up a lot in student loans, unfortunately. So when I entered graduate school, I have the numbers here. So I had $15,539 in subsidized loans, $35,418 in unsubsidized loans, and then a $13,000 private loan. So my freshman year was the only year I took out private loans in undergrad. And that was that $13,000 private loan. So altogether, if I did my math right, it comes out to $63,957 that I had in student loans going into graduate school.

06:22 Emily: Yeah. And how did you feel about that at the time?

06:27 Alana: So I was not great. I was really worried because I knew that I had all this kind of loan built up. And when you get to graduate school, you might not be thinking about your loans because they’re generally deferred. And so it’s something, oh, I don’t need to make this payment. I don’t need to worry about it, but I knew that that bill was going to come due and I knew when it was going to come due, I wasn’t going to really have the financial security to pay it off. So I was constantly looking for ways to figure out, you know, how can I pay these things off quicker? One, just because of trying to not pay as much interest, but then two, so that when I did get out of graduate school, I didn’t have, because I think if I would’ve left graduate school with all of that money, it would have been almost $800 a month that I would have had to pay back using like the government’s extended repayment. It would have been over a thousand if I like tried to pay it all back in 10 years. And I was like, looking at what postdocs got paid and what other things got paid. I was like, there’s no way I’m going to be able to afford this. So I was really worried in graduate school about how I was going to navigate after graduate school, even though it wasn’t a payment I needed to make at that time.

Which Loan Did You Target First?

07:48 Emily: That is so interesting that you were more concerned about your future self when the deferment was over, than you were about maybe how were you going to do it in the meantime, right? I mean, I think it’s really forward thinking, but I think it’s unusual, right? Because many of us, I think within our finances have a very like optimistic view. Like, my income is going to be so much higher later, and that we hope of course that’s true. But also don’t necessarily, when we’re younger, think about, well, yeah, my income might be higher, but also I might have some expenses that are higher when I’m older also. So, so interesting, but you, you noted, there were three different buckets of student loans for you, federal subsidized, federal unsubsidized, and private. And so was there like one of those that you were going to target first or that bothered you the most?

08:39 Alana: Yes. So my private loan definitely bothered me the most. And that is because it had the highest interest rate, is the first reason it bothered me. The second reason is, so COVID-19 has apparently happened. And through that time we’ve had a forbearance on student loans. That doesn’t apply to private student loans. And so I knew that private student loans generally aren’t as nice as well when it comes to, you know, forbearances or deferments for your situation. And so when I got my student loan, my interest rate was at 7%. And by the time I paid off that student loan, because I had a variable interest rate, because someone told me that was smart to do back then. It was at 11% interest rate. Yeah. It was literally going up every month in the interest that I was paying.

09:35 Emily: Wow. What a great note of warning for the listener regarding variable student loans. First of all, to have it at 7%, 7%, it’s like, okay. Yeah, it’s kind of a going rate, like, but to get up to 11? Wow. In an overall low interest rate environment. I actually also had a variable interest rate student loan, a federal one, actually. It might’ve even, yeah, it was subsidized, and then became this variable rate student loan once I came out of deferment. But because of the time period, and I think because it was federal and not private like yours, the interest rate, I think it was like at two-something percent, three-something percent. When it got up to four, I was like, you got to go, and we just paid it off. So I’m just like really balking at 11. So it was really, really good foresight again for you to say, to target that as like, oh, wow, this is variable. I don’t know which direction this is going. Like let’s work on this first. So was that like your main financial goal during graduate school is working on paying down that private student loan?

10:35 Alana: Yeah, so that was definitely the main thing I wanted to do was pay that off and then have that off my chest. Because I mean, I still had, you know, several tens of thousands more student loans that I needed to work on. So that became kind of my main goal and what I was putting money towards. I still did like other things as well. I planned for trips and stuff like that that I could go do. But that was definitely, my goal was I wanted to pay off all $13,000 by the end of my PhD. I didn’t get to that. I did $10,000, mainly because I graduated a year and a half early in my PhD, so I graduated in three and a half years. So I ended up paying it off by what would have been the end of my fourth year.

Strategies to Pay Off the Private Loan

11:23 Emily: Oh, wow. Well, that’s a great financial decision all on its own. Just get out of grad school faster. That’s awesome. I love that you identified paying off the loan in its entirety as like an ambitious goal. It’s the kind of thing that like, you know that phrase like, shoot for the moon, and even if you miss you’ll end up among the stars? Like paying off $10K, like you’re among the stars, like that’s amazing in three and a half years. That’s amazing. So let’s hear more about how you mechanically did that. Like what strategies were you using?

11:50 Alana: So I think there were probably like three, okay, let’s preface this with I am not a budgeter. I’m really, it very much stresses me out because I’ve never been at a point where I’m really financially secure. So I’ve never been at a point where I’ve made a reasonable budget and there’s been a positive at the end. So it like always stresses me out to just make a budget. So I’m just like in general, very conscious of spending money, and every time I’m spending money, I’m kind of like, is this really worth spending or not? So that’s kind of, I don’t know if that’s really a strategy, but that’s just kind of how I am.

12:27 Emily: Yeah. It’s like a predisposition, kind of.

12:30 Alana: Yeah. So probably the biggest thing that helped me to be able to do it was that I went to a graduate program in Lincoln, Nebraska. So location is a big thing when you’re choosing a graduate school, and I really wanted to go to a big city. Fortunately, I think, I didn’t get into programs in big cities. And so I came here and you can get, so my first apartment, I shared it with two other people. It was, you know, fairly new apartments, very modern. It was a $400 rent. So it’s just so much cheaper to live in a place like Lincoln. So I think my monthly stipend was $1,700 after taxes. And so that goes a lot further when your rent is only $400 of that 1700. So I think that’s a major factor is the fact that I was living in a much lower cost-of-living area.

13:29 Alana: And then what I would do is, so whenever my like bank account gets below $1,500, I like start freaking out. So I plan to every month to try and put $500 towards my student loan. So we get paid once a month at the end of the month. So right before my paycheck would hit, I would look at my bank account and I would say, okay, there’s this much. And if, you know, I had $2,000 left, I would pay $500 if I had below that I would pay until I hit that $1,500 mark. And so that was kind of my strategy in paying that loan off.

14:09 Emily: Yeah. I really like the way you articulated that and think it is probably really relatable for people who, as you said, are not budgeters or are not into that, but like you are kind of have a predisposition of, okay, I’m really going to kind of carefully weigh my spending and you have this target of $500 per month in mind. Yeah. Maybe you don’t hit that every month, but you’re going to be, when you’re drawing close to that and you’re starting to eat into that balance, you’re aware of it. So yeah, I think that strategy can be really relatable.

Take Advantage of Research Award Opportunities

14:36 Alana: The third one I did is I actually worked on getting a bunch of research awards. So I got a research fellowship that I think was right around $3,000 that was paid out over two years. And I put all of that money towards that private loan. I got multiple research poster awards. There was actually one poster session that was done every year that I literally just went to it to try and get the award so that I could put it towards my student loans. And I think I won like first or second place every year, which was like a 200 to 250 or $300 award. So it’s a nice, you know, amount of cash coming in. So I would do things like that, looking for fellowships, research awards, poster sessions, talk sessions and trying to do things like that, to be able to get some extra income and probably about $3,000 to $5,000 of what I paid towards my student loans probably came from the research awards and fellowships that I got.

15:42 Emily: That’s incredible. And what a boost for your CV, too, like so nice to have that double benefit if, you know, whatever your motivation is for going, you know, going after these things, going after awards, the outcome is great if you actually get it. And even if you don’t, it’s still worthwhile. So yeah, that’s great to hear. And so those awards, when you mentioned your stipend earlier, that’s all on top of that stipend. So you just kind of had a plan of like any windfall money, like that would go straight towards the student loans.

16:09 Alana: Yep.

16:10 Emily: Alright. Yeah. Anything else you want to share with us about how you made that work?

16:15 Alana: I don’t think so. I mean, those were kind of my biggest things. It wasn’t a very planned thing, but it was a thing that was like always on the front of my mind. Anytime I would look at my finances, I kept thinking, is there a way I can put more money to get this, you know, student loan paid down?

Current Status of Loans

16:31 Emily: Yeah. Well, let’s hear current updates. So you said you finished in 2019, we’re now in 2021. We’re recording this in April, 2021. So yeah. Where are your private student loans now? Where do they stand?

16:45 Alana: Yeah, so I paid off, so it was just one private student loan. I paid off all $13,000 March of last year. So three months after I graduated, I had the last $3,000 paid off on that one.

17:01 Emily: Incredible, congratulations!

17:04 Alana: Thank you!

17:05 Emily: Then, regarding the federal loans, we know what happened, just starting in March, 2020, administrative forbearance. What are your kind of plans around your payoff for that? Like, are you going to stick with an income-driven payment plan? Are you going to do it more aggressively?

17:19 Alana: So right now I’m on the standard, but the extended standard. So, because I had, I think it’s $25,000. Because I had over the 25,000, there’s an extended where they give you 25 years to pay it off instead of 10 years. So I’m on that right now. And my plan is that, once I start my new job and I have, you know, a little bit more money coming in, I paid some off as I’ve had, you know, extra cash in, but as I start this one, I’m going to start more heavily putting it on to those student loans. So I’m not going to change the actual plan I’m on because there’s no penalty for paying things off early. I’m just going to, you know, put extra income that I get towards my student loans to be able to pay those off more quickly, if that makes sense.

18:11 Emily: Yeah, it totally does. So you’re keeping that minimum payment low just for flexibility, but you still have that as kind of a primary goal. And you’ll still be doing aggressively and just because we are in April, 2021, what do you think about the possibility of student loan cancellation to any degree? Are you factoring that into your plan?

18:32 Alana: So I am not, I am a plan for the worst, hope for the best kind of person. So I’m not, I would be very thankful and appreciative if there was any form of cancellation because, you know, I have a partner who also comes with their student loans, but I’m not banking on it. I think that’s been in talks for a very long time with not really much coming of it. So the forbearance that happened in 2020 was actually a huge benefit to me and has allowed me to make a lot of decisions that I wouldn’t have been able to make had I not had the COVID forbearance. So I’m thankful for that, but I’m not going to, you know, make a plan that, you know, student loans will get canceled or partially forgiven.

19:23 Emily: Yeah. Well, this is a really exciting time. I’m so glad that we caught you right here at the cusp of your new job in that new phase. But again, congratulations on killing the private student loans, having them be completely gone.

19:34 Alana: Thank you.

Commercial

19:36 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch on to non-W2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item number one: fill out the estimated tax worksheet in form 1040ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2021 and tell you whether you’re required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15th, 2021. Action item number two: whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate named savings count for your future tax payments, calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax, and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account into your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives. If you need some help with the estimated tax worksheet, or want to ask me a question, please join my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. Go to PFforPhds.com/QETax to learn more about and join the workshop. Now, back to our interview.

Real Estate Purchase During Postdoc

21:15 Emily: Okay, let’s talk about the next topic you wanted to bring up, which is about your real estate purchase during your postdoc. So let’s hear the whole story around that.

21:23 Alana: So I met my partner in graduate school, actually, the day before I started graduate school, I met my partner. And so he had a house. He had bought a house years before we met, and when we moved, he sold the house. So we had some money come in from that. And when I took a postdoc, I took a postdoc in Greenville, North Carolina. And it is kind of interesting because when I was looking for housing options, I had the option of paying around a thousand dollars a month for a one-bedroom, one-bath apartment, or I could buy a condo that I could pay $650 a month for a two-bed, two-bath condo.

22:12 Emily: Those numbers are very surprising.

22:14 Alana: Yeah. So real estate was really, really cheap there. And to get into a decent apartment that, you know, wasn’t bug-infested and had other problems, it was very expensive to do there. So we decided to invest and we bought a $85,000 condo, two-bed, two-bath condo. And you know, my partner comes from a family that has constantly flipped homes. So this condo looked very bad. It kind of looked like it had been run down from the seventies, but was built in the nineties. So it was kind of interesting, it had been a rental for years and we kind of transformed it. I think one of my friends said it looked like a modern New York City apartment by the time we were done with it. So it was kind of interesting because we worked a lot on the condo and made it look a lot nicer, but our main driving factor for buying it was primarily because it was so much cheaper. And it was going save us so much money in the long-run. Both because we were investing in something, and then also just because the monthly payment was so much lower when we bought something versus renting a place.

23:36 Emily: How did you fit such major renovation projects around your research schedule?

Renovations and Research

23:44 Alana: I think there’s like a couple things. So one, I didn’t do most of the work. I’m going to be honest. So my partner, Greenville’s a really small town, so my partner actually had difficulty finding jobs there. So he was unemployed for about half the time we were in Greenville, and he spent a lot of his time working on it. I was more the design person. So I was like, this is what we’re going to do. And then I did some of the renovations and it kind of became like our hobby. So I took a week off at the end of my PhD, went down to Greenville, and we did the initial renovation. So we redid the floors, painted the walls, made it at least livable. And that was kind of the bulk. And then we did one more bulk right before we sold the place.

24:30 Alana: That kind of put us over the edge on getting a higher price back. But I think kind of knowing what you’re doing helped because like some things we really didn’t know what we were doing and Googling a lot of things. But I think having someone that, you know, my partner knew a lot more what they were doing when coming to a construction project and then, you know, it kind of ends up being fun after a while. And so that kind of became where we put our free time when we worked on it together around my research schedule.

25:05 Emily: Yeah. That’s really good to hear. I always kind of wonder about how like sort of logistically that works. Anyway, so my husband and I just closed on our first house. It’s very turnkey, but there are like a few things we wanted to change. So we’re kind of in the midst of like this, how much do we outsource? How much do we DIY? What kind of capacity do we have to actually work on this house? Or, you know, those kinds of questions are kind of circling in my mind right now. So I’m just really glad to hear how you did it. So I have been consuming more real estate investing content recently, a little bit from BiggerPockets, and I know Mindy Jensen, who’s the co-host of the BiggerPockets money podcast calls, what you described, a live-in flip. So that’s what she does, like serially, she does live-in flips, one after the other. But that’s great. So you had that initial experience. Now, I think you said that your postdoc was pretty short term, is that right?

25:58 Alana: Yeah, so it wasn’t supposed to be. So I started January 3rd, I think 2020, and I ended it October 31st, 2020. So it was about a 10-month long postdoc. The initial contract was until March of 2021, and then I was supposed to extend it for like another year, but I ended up kind of cutting it short and actually moving back to Lincoln, Nebraska.

Is a Real Estate Purchase Worthwhile?

26:28 Emily: Yeah. And so I think this is something that’s really on the minds of people when they move for grad school, move for a postdoc, move for a first job is, how long am I actually going to be here, and is a real estate purchase worthwhile? So can you tell us your thoughts on that? Like, did you have that thought you first moved there? I mean, obviously the numbers made a lot of sense, but over what time period did the numbers make sense?

26:49 Alana: Yeah, so I definitely had that thought, especially because when you’re looking at buying or selling, there are a couple of things you have to, so I said, you know, it was $650 per month, you know, versus a thousand. So that’s like what, a $350 difference that I probably would have been paying. But then you look at your down payment. So my down payment on the condo was just under $5,000, which was a lot cheaper than a lot of real estate down payments. But if you spread that out through time, you would realize that that’s a lot more than the thousand dollars a month. And so there were a lot of questions that we had on whether this was going to be a smart purchase or not. We were expecting me to stay for about two years. And generally you want, you know, for, I think the advice usually given is five years to make a real estate purchase. You want to be there for about five years. But I think the biggest thing was just our comfort level. And especially with the lack of really good landlords in Greenville, we felt like we were more suited, we knew the real estate market. We knew how to sell houses. We knew how to do that stuff. So we kind of took a gamble. And we went that direction instead. And we were like, we might come out at a loss in the end, but we think our experience there is going be a lot better. And so it might be worth that loss in the end.

28:21 Emily: Yeah. I was going to ask how did it end up turning out?

28:25 Alana: Yes. So actually it was really good. One, we did flip it, so we bought it for $85,000. We sold it for $99,500. So a pretty nice, we actually got an offer for like $104K, but it didn’t appraise for that. So it was a pretty big, you know, good chunk of change, I think after all the sales commissions and everything, we came out, because we also sold all the furniture with the house. So we came out with about $15,000 in the end. But the biggest thing was, that we didn’t think about, is because we had bought real estate, we weren’t hooked into a lease. So we sold our place, we went under contract in September, which means we could leave, where if we had started a lease in January, by the time, you know, October came around, which is when we left, we left October 1st. So by the time that came around, we would have had three months left on our lease. So we have had to end up paying a lot more to get nothing just to break our lease. So ultimately it was kind of a good decision in that we were able to, you know, leave without having to worry about paying, you know, penalty fees.

29:36 Emily: Yeah. I’m really glad that, you know, you’re here to tell this story because I think, for me anyway, my mind more naturally goes to like the downsides of taking, you know, risky decisions. And I think everyone should of course be aware of the potential downsides, but just know that there are upsides also that you might experience that are just as, or maybe even more likely, than the downside. So like, yeah, clearly it was a risk, it was a risk at two years, it was more of a risk at 10 months or nine months or whatever. But it did work out, and the thing is, you didn’t have to sell. If that was not going to work out financially for you, you were not required to sell, you could have moved and rented it out. You had other options. Right. It’s just that, oh, selling did make sense. And so you went through with it.

30:21 Alana: Yeah. So we actually considered that. We were looking at actually either doing Airbnbs for it or doing a long-term rental. And we actually looked into it, and like right as that was happening, there was kind of a real estate bubble. Because of COVID, nobody was selling real estate. So there was a scarcity on the market, and suddenly condos that were usually priced at the 60 to 80,000 range were starting to go near a hundred thousand. And like, so we were like, okay, this seems like it’s a good decision. And we could have always denied a contract if we were like, okay, we’re not going to get enough out of it. And we kind of just wanted the peace of mind. We didn’t really ever want to go back to Greenville. So we didn’t want to have a place that we knew we would have to take care of, but it was definitely something we looked into. And if we stayed closer to the area, we probably would have done it for short-term rental or something.

Real Estate Flip Funded Science Grad School Coach 

31:16 Emily: Yeah. Well this is so interesting. I’m really glad to like kind of learn that it did work out positively in your case. And so when you volunteered for this, you said you wanted to tell how that real estate flip funded your Science Grad School Coach endeavor. So tell us about that.

31:34 Alana: So that $15,000 that we got from the sale of the condo, which knowing for like me and my partner, if it hadn’t been in the condo, because we, you know, put $5,000 down, it probably wouldn’t have been around by the time we got, because again, we’re not budgeters. So the fact that it was there and we had that money, it allowed me to kind of make the decision. My partner finally got like his dream job back in Lincoln. So we made the decision for me to go unemployed and work on building this business and for him to come here, and his job was not fully going to support us here. So the money that we got from the sale of our house actually made up for at least a year. We would have been fine for at least a year between the savings and then also, you know, his income.

32:30 Alana: And so that kind of started me having the freedom to really pursue starting the Science Grad School Coach and work on it. And then on the side, I kind of looked at applying to jobs and things like that. Because I was kind of sad to leave research. I still wasn’t exactly sure what I wanted to do. And now kind of right as things are starting to come into play with the Science Grad School Coach, I’m also starting a new job. So like in the end, it was a risky decision. And the only reason we could have taken that decision was because we bought a house and sold it and had that extra money leftover to then come here and have that time. And now I am employed, starting Monday, I will be employed. And so that’s going to give me the opportunity to kind of do both. Both the Science Grad School Coach, and then also go back into research.

33:24 Emily: Yeah, this just, you know, is another example of what I like to say is money gives you options, right? The option to pursue fun employment. The option to wait for a great job opportunity to come and not try to force yourself into one that’s not a great fit, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I also had, I guess, somewhat of a similar story when I started Personal Finance for PhDs, which just in the sense that my husband and I focused a lot of our energy and our finances on retirement investing when we were in graduate school. And so by the time we finished, and I talk about this in season one episode one, by the time we finished, we had quite a good nest egg, and that made us feel comfortable to take risks with our careers. So he took a job at a startup, which we were very concerned about.

Where to Learn More About Science Grad School Coach

34:09 Emily: It happens to be that he’s still at that same position six years later, but we did not know at the time that it would be around for six years. So he took a job at a startup and I started my business, which, you know, low revenue, you know, initially. So yeah, it was risky, but we felt confident, not because we had a bolus of cash savings as you did, but just because generally we were doing pretty well on the retirement front and we, you know, felt like it was okay to take a risk. So just so interesting, like I’d just love to hear another example of how your finances, like, we all know that our careers can affect our finances, right? By what job we choose and so forth, but how your finances affect your career as well. And for you, your ability to start your side business. So yeah, I’m just, I’m really glad to hear that. If people are intrigued by Science Grad School Coach, where can they find you and you know, what are you doing there?

34:59 Alana: Yeah. So the Science Grad School Coach is kind of the business I developed to help people with pursuing research. So like I said, one of the ways I was able to pay off, you know, a lot of my student loans was because of getting research awards and research posters. And something I realized is I’m actually good at doing research. But I didn’t start out that way. When I started in graduate school, I was really frustrated because I felt like everyone expected me to know things, but nobody ever taught me those things. So I had to kind of, over time figure all these different things out from how do I create a research idea, to how do I write a paper, to how do I put a poster together? And so what I’ve done is basically I want to share that knowledge with other people.

35:50 Alana: And that’s what the Science Grad School Coach is. So if you’re interested, I do have a YouTube channel which is the Science Grad School Coach. And there’s where I share a lot of, kind of shorter videos on different topics around research and how to get better at research and do things like that. You can also find me on Twitter at @scigradcoach. And then I also have a full resource pages if you’re interested that I have several different resources on there from how to create ideas, how to write a paper, how to do your dissertation. And you can find that at sciencegradschoolcoach.com/resources. And so those are kind of three different places where you can connect with me and hopefully get to learn some of the things that I’m trying to share. And hopefully it’s helpful.

36:43 Emily: Yeah. I love that impulse and I wish that I had run across a few of those resources back when I was in graduate school. Maybe the information was there. I don’t know. I didn’t, I was not plugged into it if it was.

36:54 Alana: Yeah, I definitely wasn’t either. And I think people don’t realize that research can be easy, and then it’s just because we’re not taught how to do it and we’re just expected to, and then we have to deal with the frustration of being like, I don’t know what I’m doing, but I feel like I’m supposed to know. So I did something wrong. And it’s not that you ever did anything wrong. It’s just how the system is set up is not set up for researchers to do well, I guess. It’s set up to make you struggle when you don’t need to. Because like I ended up writing or publishing seven papers in my three years as a graduate student, but it didn’t start out that way, right? Because I like really struggled. And then I started learning where I can write a research paper. Once I have the data, I can write it, you know, in a day or two. And that’s just because now I know how to do it. And so that’s what I’m trying to share with other people.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

37:47 Emily: Yeah. Excellent. Very worthwhile endeavor. Love it. Okay. I’ll ask you the question that I end all my interviews with, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

37:59 Alana: So this is probably not the best advice, but I think my best advice is to think a lot about the location you’re going to. That’s one of the reasons why I came to the university I came to was because I started looking up rent prices and saw how cheap it was. But something that you may not know is before, so I came back to Lincoln after my postdoc. But I actually got two different job offers before I came back to Lincoln. I got an industry job that was going to pay me $85,000 that was in a middle, kind of a higher than Lincoln, cost-of-living, but it was just not the right job for me. But then I got my dream job, which was a postdoc. It was doing the dream research I wanted to do in Seattle. And I looked at the living cost, and I said, I’m going to have to take on debt to go work a job.

38:56 Alana: And I refuse to do that. And so I actually went for unemployment because it was cheaper for me to come to Lincoln and be unemployed than it was for me to go to Seattle and work a job. And so that was a really hard decision for me to make, because I really wanted to do that research. But I think it’s important to think about the fact that even as an early PhD, like you are worth something, and if you’re not going to be netting positive while working a job, you really may want to reconsider taking those jobs because that really shouldn’t be a thing, especially after you have a PhD.

39:40 Emily: What an indictment, you know, of the salaries that we pay, both graduate students and postdocs. Absolutely. And it’s so unfortunate. I mean, it’s the academic loss, the research engine’s loss that you did that calculus and came on the side of, I can’t take this job because you simply don’t pay me enough. You made a rational decision in the face of that, you know, situation, but it’s just so unfortunate that things are set up that way. In any case, you have another wonderful job coming up now in Lincoln. And yeah, I totally agree with you. You have to be very careful about examining the cost-of-living versus salaries. You know, the salary numbers, if you’re coming from a lower or a middle, you know, cost-of-living city, moving to a high-cost living city, like maybe that initial postdoc salary looked to you like, Hmm, not bad, but then you had to actually look into it and say, oh no, Seattle, quite expensive. It’s not going to work. So I totally agree with you do that at every single, you know, any job you’re trying to take going forward. Is there anything else you wanted to add on that?

40:40 Alana: I think that’s the main thing. Yeah, and like Seattle, like that was my dream city too. Like that is where like I want to go retire. So it was like so tempting to take it. And then just to realize that you’re literally not paying me enough to even afford rent, really. And so this new job I’m taking is just slightly over that same salary, but it’s so much more livable because Lincoln is literally less than half the cost-of-living of Seattle. So making that kind of decision, I think it’s so tempting to think that if I take this dream job, it’s going to propel me to the next dream thing. And kind of after different situations in my life, I realized that that’s not always true, and it’s not worth either going through a toxic situation or a situation where you’re not making enough money to live for a hope of the next thing, because if you don’t get that next thing, you’ve screwed yourself.

41:41 Emily: Yes. Such an important message. I mean, we all know the abysmal hiring rates for of course faculty positions, but even as I said earlier, like we tend to be really optimistic about the whole salary situation in research. And Hey, we all hope it comes about, but you’ve got to look at the downsides, too. So it’s interesting that you’ve sort of illustrated in your story, a couple different gambles that we’ve been talking about and how you’ve made different decisions, you know, in the face of these. So yeah, I love that, you know, you illustrated those points. Thank you so much for joining me today. It was a pleasure to have you and to get to know you.

42:14 Alana: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. And I hope that my story can be helpful to other people especially about, you know, thinking about student loans while you’re in grad school. Because the other thing is, unless you have subsidized loans, your interest is still building while you’re doing that. So just, you know, thinking about that and then kind of making smart decisions when it comes to, you know, gambles. So I’m actually, I’m not a risk taker. I realize that this sounds like I’m a risk taker. I’m really not. Like I weigh through the pros and cons of everything I do. And you know, there are some risks you have to take in life, but I try to limit those to those that are just absolutely necessary. So I hope that this can help people that sometimes it works well. And sometimes not taking an opportunity also works well in the end.

43:07 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing these stories and for joining me.

43:09 Alana: Yeah. Thank you!

Outtro

43:11 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/Podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which includes full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license prerecorded workshops on taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhds.com/Subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps! The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio, and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Start-Up Centers Graduate Students and Pays Them Handsomely

by

In this episode, Emily interviews Jin Chow, a graduate student at Stanford, and Stephen Weber, a graduate student at the University of Georgia. Jin is the co-founder of Polygence, a start-up that facilitates graduate students and PhDs remotely mentoring high school students one-on-one through well-defined research projects. Stephen has mentored five students and speaks to the advantages of Polygence as a flexible and lucrative side hustle. We discuss whether and how to tell your PhD advisor about a side hustle, and who is or is not a good fit for becoming a mentor with Polygence. Jin also briefly shares the story of how she co-founded Polygence as a graduate student on an F-1 visa. If you’re looking for a side hustle that’s convenient to balance with your graduate work, check out Polygence: they are hiring mentors now!

Links Mentioned in the Episode

grad student side hustle

Teaser

00:00 Stephen: You know, it’s kind of funny to say, but I’m getting paid to learn more about things that I would already be interested in learning about.

Introduction

00:12 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 3, and today my guests are Jin Chow, a graduate student at Stanford, and Stephen Weber, a graduate student at the University of Georgia. Jin is the co-founder of Polygence, a start-up that facilitates graduate students and PhDs remotely mentoring high school students one-on-one through well-defined research projects. Stephen has mentored five students and speaks to the advantages of Polygence as a flexible and lucrative side hustle. We discuss whether and how to tell your PhD advisor about a side hustle, and who is or is not a good fit for becoming a mentor for Polygence. Jin also briefly shares the story of how she co-founded Polygence as a graduate student on an F-1 visa. If you’re looking for a side hustle that’s convenient to balance with your graduate work and want to help cultivate the next generation of researchers, check out Polygence: they are hiring mentors now!

01:19 Emily: If you have a pretty well-established side hustle, whether as a contractor with a company like Polygence or your own sole proprietorship, you may be wondering how best to manage that stream of income. This is especially true if you incur any expenses with respect to your side hustle. I have a course titled Best Financial Practices for Your Self-Employment Side Hustle that speaks to two chief areas of interest for people with this type of side hustle. 1: How to financially manage variable business income and expenses so that your personal finances aren’t negatively affected. This half of the course teaches some basic business and personal finance principles to keep everything orderly. 2: What type of self-employment retirement account option to use. If you are a super-saver who maxes out your IRA yearly and doesn’t have access to a workplace-based retirement account, you can actually use your self-employment income to open and fund an additional tax-advantaged retirement account. My course explains which of the several options is the best fit for a solopreneur side hustler. If you’d like to learn more about and purchase this course, please go to PFforPhDs.com/sesh/. That’s P F f o r P h D s dot com slash s for self e for employment s for side h for hustle. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Jin Chow and Stephen Weber.

Will You Please Introduce Yourselves Further?

02:54 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Jin Chow and Stephen Weber. They are representing Polygence. So I first heard about Polygence a few weeks back when I was at a conference, I had the pleasure of speaking with another employee and learned what they do, which is providing mentorship opportunities to high school students and hooking them up with graduate students and PhDs. And the reason that we’re bringing this episode to you is of course, to tell you a little bit about the company, but also to let you know that this is a potential side hustle opportunity. We’re going to get into more of that momentarily. So Jin and Stephen, will you please take a moment to introduce yourselves a little bit further to the audience?

03:31 Jin: Awesome. Hi everyone. My name is Jin, really grateful to Emily for having us on today. A little background about myself, I’m originally from Hong Kong, came to the U.S. for college, studied Comparative Literature at Princeton for my undergrad, and I’m currently a PhD Candidate at Stanford, also in Comparative Literature. And in terms of research background, I’ve just been working mostly on French and Arabic literature. And then right now I’m putting my PhD on hold to work full-Time on Polygence. I’m one of the founders.

04:00 Emily: Yeah, super interesting. We’ll get back to that at the end of the interview. Stephen, go ahead and introduce yourself.

04:05 Stephen: Well, thanks for having me. My name’s Stephen. I’m actually a third-year PhD student at the University of Georgia. My research is focused on Parkinson’s Disease and the association of the immune system and potentially perpetuating that. And then before that I was actually a research professional at Stanford University. I worked with the stem cell Institute, teaching and training anywhere from undergraduates, to postdocs, to professors on application of a specific methodology. And yeah, that’s a little bit about me.

04:40 Emily: And what’s your role with Polygence now?

04:42 Stephen: Yeah, so now at Polygence I’m a mentor and I have been for about a year and a half and recently have moved into being a mentor affairs coordinator. And that’s where I’m at now.

How to Get Involved with Polygence

04:53 Emily: Yeah. So we’re going to hear more about what is this mentor role. But to back up a little bit, Jin, as founder, co-founder let us know more about Polygence, what it’s about, and how can graduate students and PhDs get involved with the company?

05:08 Jin: Totally. So Emily, I think you gave a really great overview of what it is. So we’re an online project-based learning platform where we connect PhD candidates, masters candidates, postdocs, and also people who already have their advanced degrees with really motivated and intellectually curious high schoolers to work on personalized research projects. And our mission on the mentor side really is to democratize access to the knowledge that’s in so many PhD candidates heads and also to give PhD candidates, graduate students in general, a chance to earn some side money because we know how not well universities pay PhD students and graduate students in general. And so on the mentor side, that really is our mission. And we want to make sure that students high schoolers from all around the world who are passionate about different kinds of academic disciplines can get a chance to connect with experts like yourselves, our listeners today. And to do something beyond the school curriculum and to learn something new, create something fun and cool. And so for, in terms of how mentors can get involved, we have an open rolling application season for any mentor to express interest on our website. We’ll put in the link in the show notes later. And also once you sign up, we have rolling interviews, you’ll meet with one of our team members and then we’ll onboard you.

06:29 Emily: It’s so unusual. I really don’t think I’ve spoken to anyone else who has centered the graduate student experience in the broader mission of a startup or a company. And of course it’s very like laudable that we want to help mentor and educate these up-and-coming researchers who are currently in high school and so forth. That’s all wonderful. But to hear that, okay, this was founded by a graduate student. You can, I guess maybe you want to introduce your co-founder in a moment as well, but founded by a graduate student and really again, centers that graduate student experience and the financial concerns of graduate students. So unusual. And I’m really excited to talk to you about that.

07:06 Jin: Yeah. Maybe I’ll just take three seconds to say a little bit more about my co-founder too. So I think the reason why we’re so centered on the graduate experience is because when we founded it, I was in the middle of it. I was in my second year of the PhD program and my co-founder, Janos, had just finished his PhD in physics. And so we both just knew so well how difficult it is financially as a graduate student. And also we both just love teaching so much, but didn’t get enough of that in our own respective programs. And so those two things coming together just made the graduate experience like front and center for us.

Stephen’s Role as a Mentor

07:36 Emily: Fantastic. Fantastic. So Stephen, not speaking as the founder, but speaking as someone who has been a mentor with Polygence and now has moved into an even bigger role. What has been your experience as a mentor?

07:50 Stephen: Yeah, I mean, I think that that’s one of the biggest questions. So I actually am a part of doing the interviews for potentially onboarding mentors. And so, you know, that’s a question that I get asked a lot is so why are you still here? You know, because I think for a lot of graduate students, their experience is TA ships, right? Wherein they are paid poorly for their time. And they’re expected to do a lot. And they often have that as an interference to their day to day. You know, especially someone who’s coming from the hard sciences where there’s a lot of really long days spent in the lab, for instance, it can be hard to juggle the responsibilities of that plus being a TA. And so despite having a really huge love for teaching, it can be really difficult to make that work.

08:37 Stephen: And it also is not quite as flexible as the schedule at Polygence, right? So at Polygence, you’re committing to hour-long sessions with students, roughly once a week, and you can make those times whenever is good for you. So I think that that’s part of why I’m still with it, obviously, but it also adds value to the fact that I get to still enjoy it each time. You know, it’s not just a, “I have to be here doing this.” This is something that I want to do. I feel like my time is compensated well. And I feel like I get to talk about things that I really want to talk about. Whereas as a graduate student, you’re often TAing for courses that may not be within your wheelhouse or may not be of specific interest. They might just be departmental courses that you’re just kind of asked to TA for. So I think that that’s another huge point of why I’m still here is that I feel like I get to not only talk about what I like, but also get to explore it in ways that are new and novel for incoming students.

Intangible Benefits of Mentorship

09:32 Emily: We’re going to talk more about sort of the financial side of this in just a moment, but I wanted to hear some more about like maybe the intangible benefits, the intangible experience, the warm fuzzies that you get from working with these students. Like you’ve done multiple cycles of this, I understand. So, you know, what is your enjoyment of the process?

09:52 Stephen: Yeah, so I’ve, what is it, five students now at this point and I’ve had three of them publish their work in high school-tier journals. And so, you know, for me, what I think is kind of like a part of it that you can’t really capture with, like the financial element is that you’re getting to be a part of the developmental process for people that have a passion similar to yours. And I mean, maybe I’m like the outlier, but when I was in high school, I can definitely say that I didn’t have this kind of opportunity. And so it was a really novel experience to be a part of the early foundation-laying of students who really want to pursue this. And not only do they get to learn more about a subject, but they also get to learn more about the ins and outs of the career itself.

10:37 Stephen: And I think for me that would have been hugely valuable to know here are skills that I could start working on now in high school to get ready for, you know, a long-term academic career. And I think that those are parts of the intangible that just feel like, you know, it’s paying it forward in a way of like, okay, so I struggled through and learned these things. Let me try to provide some insight for you that you can now take forward and maybe try to share with people around you as you go through the academic process.

Why this Side Hustle is a Great Fit for Grad Students

11:04 Emily: Wonderful. I also am reflecting on kind of my experience in high school. And I was fortunate that I did have research opportunities because I attended a particular school that offered that, but they weren’t like one-on-one, it was group. And I think that given my personality, I think a one-on-one setting would have been fantastic for me at that age. We talked about how the commitment when you’re mentoring a student through Polygence is approximately one hour about once a week, and that it’s flexible to be, you know, conforming to the mentor’s schedule. And I love this because one of the key key elements I think of a successful side hustle in graduate school is being able to schedule something that’s not going to interfere with, as you said, Stephen, your long days in lab. Like that really does need to be your priority. And so being able to do something around that is absolutely perfect. Is there any other reason that you can think of that this particular side hustle is a great fit for graduate students?

11:56 Stephen: There’s a whole host of reasons really, I guess, but you know, there’s some of the core ones are in addition to the flexibility of it all, it’s also an opportunity to maybe explore parts of research that your boss doesn’t really find interesting. You know, because for me, my area of research is very niche. And so as a result, I don’t get to explore some of the outside things. It’s not that I don’t have an interest, but now I’m getting, you know, it’s kind of funny to say, but I’m getting paid to learn more about things that I would already be interested in learning about. And, you know, those were opportunities really because, you know, some of the conversations that I’ve had with my students have actually turned around and been things that I was able to employ in my own research. And so, you know, those are things that just through the conversation, through the ever-evolving amount of information you’re getting from these students. And from that process of learning more about your own subject, I think it kind of pays itself back to you in addition to, you know, being compensated for that time.

12:53 Jin: I’ve heard from some mentors too, that like, especially for those who are thinking about building a career in teaching, whether in high school teaching or later in academia, obviously getting more teaching experience and connecting with young people is something that is really beneficial for their own sort of pedagogical development as a teacher and an educator. And obviously getting paid to get that experience. Our hourly rate is usually around $75 and above. And so that’s usually sort of both the financial and also the paying it forward and as well as the teaching experience piece is what I hear most from mentors.

13:29 Emily: Yeah. I was just thinking that like, you know, one of the things that you’re supposed to be doing in graduate school is being exposed to new ideas by networking and talking with new people and going to conferences and going to seminars and so forth. And this is just another way to have that happen, to have to be exposed to another like creative mind who’s not as encultured maybe yet to the way that we think in academia that can help you spark your own ideas. As you said, Stephen, to go back into your research to feed back into that. And so I just think this is again, another way of doing that kind of networking and exploration, but getting paid for it at the same time which is fantastic.

Financial Benefits of Polygence Side Hustle

14:06 Emily: So Jin, you just mentioned the pay rate, usually $75 per hour and above. Fantastic for a side hustle for a graduate student. Stephen, you said you’ve done five cycles of this mentorship program. And so what have you been doing with this side hustle money? How has this money impacted your financial life?

14:26 Stephen: Yeah, I mean, it, in a sense it provides a certain semblance of security, right? So, you know, as a graduate student, you don’t really make a whole lot, really, especially when you consider taxes and just having to pay student fees and all of this stuff. So basically that money basically affords the ability to have hobbies again, whereas before it could be difficult to do that. So I’ve done martial arts my whole life. So being able to pay for training at gyms, that’s sometimes a sacrifice that has to be made of, you know, if I don’t have any additional income, it may be hard to kind of balance that out. So that’s, you know, one place, it also just adds a little bit of actual savings to your life, which is, you know, an amazing thing to be able to have as graduate student is that you can kind of accrue that semblance of like, oh, I’m not living paycheck-to-paycheck anymore. So I think that those are two key ways that it’s been, you know, a nice opportunity for sure.

15:20 Emily: Yeah. I’m just thinking I’m doing tiny bit of arithmetic here. Okay. So $75 an hour once per week, we’re talking 300 a month if you’re doing this for a whole month. And I know, because this is cyclical, people might not be like continuously involved with mentorship, but let’s say you do it for six months out of the year. That’s $1,800 coming in for the year that you didn’t have before. And that goes a pretty nice far ways to contributing to an IRA, for example, where the max is $6,000 per year. If you wanted to invest it there are plenty of other good things you can do. Like Stephen, you just said improving your physical and mental health and you’re making time for hobbies and so forth. Lots of good things you can do with money, but that’s a pretty nice chunk of change, especially as we mentioned for the hourly commitment.

Commercial

16:06 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. We have a special event coming up on Friday, August 27th, 2021. It’s the fourth installment of my Wealthy PhD workshop series. The subject is debt repayment. This workshop is for you if you’re in debt of any kind and want to learn the best strategies for getting out of debt. These strategies are tailored to the PhD experience, particularly that of graduate students. We will cover student loans, of course, which are such a complex topic, as well as mortgages, credit card debt, auto debt, medical debt, et cetera. I’ll give you a spreadsheet that will help you work through in which order to tackle your debts, taking into account the type of debt, the interest rate, and the pay-off balance. We’ll also discuss how to sustain your motivation through a long debt repayment process. This is going to be a value-packed session. So please join us on August 27th. You can register at pfforphds.com slash wphddebt. That’s PFforPhDs.com/W for wealthy P H D D E B T. Now back to our interview.

How to Inform Your Mentor About a Side Hustle

17:22 Emily: So Stephen, we talked earlier about how flexible and low time commitment this is. Did you choose to tell your mentor that you were involved with this? Did you choose to keep it on the down low? Like yeah. How did the sort of time management work with you and your mentor?

17:39 Stephen: Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, I get that question from mentors all the time actually is how do you kind of balance this with other obligations? And I mean, I would 100% advocate for informing your mentor, right? Because I think without doing that, it’s not really going to be something that is going to feel comfortable for you, but this isn’t something that needs to be hidden, right? This is a teaching opportunity that your mentor is probably going to be very enthused about you doing, you know, especially if they’re not in need of you to be on a TAship. This is just further development professionally. It also affords you the opportunity to make a little bit of extra income, which as mentors will often tell you, it’s nice to not have students feeling like they’re starving. You know what I mean? And so I think that those are pieces that are important.

18:21 Stephen: And so I certainly told my mentor, and basically I just laid it out as this is not going to impact any of my day-to-day work. Because as I was saying before, you know, the flexibility of the scheduling affords you to be able to set this up well after anything that would be needed in your day-to-day. It can be done on weekends wherein you may not have as many obligations to your full-time position, whatever that might be. And so I think that that’s really how it should be approached, is that this is just a additional professional development opportunity. And I would wager that most mentors and most programs are going to completely support and advocate for that.

18:58 Emily: Yeah. I think that unless there’s an explicit prohibition on any kind of outside work for money, this is probably one of the first things that’s going to go over pretty well with a mentor because of the time commitment because of flexibility. Jin, have you seen other mentors take the same approach as Stephen or different ones? Do you have anything to add about how to approach your advisor with, “Hey, I’m going to take this opportunity”?

19:24 Jin: Yeah, I think definitely a lot of the other mentors that I’ve talked to have just made it very clear with their PIs, that this is not going to affect, or maybe this will even enhance, their own work. And especially those who are thinking about, again, a career in teaching, this usually just goes over really well with PIs. The only sort of difference is I think there are some mentors, if they have certain funding from certain foundations and sources that explicitly prohibit, let’s say outside work, then there have been some conversations where the mentor realized that they can’t actually get paid for the work. And they’re going to just volunteer and work with some of our scholarship students in the scholarship program. But in general, for most of our mentors, it’s gone over actually really well with their PIs. And most of our mentors will want to tell their PIs just in the name of transparency.

Anyone Who Might Not Be a Good Fit at the Moment?

20:12 Emily: To kind of expand on that question a little bit more, Jin. So you just mentioned, okay, there might be some limited circumstances where, contractually, graduate students are not permitted to be paid for outside work. Are there any other people who might be excited by this episode and thinking that they might want to work with Polygence, but that you know already would not be a good fit at least at the moment?

20:35 Jin: Yeah, so unfortunately we are not able to employ graduate students who are on student visas, just because with payment issues, we need everyone to have U.S. work authorization. So mentors who are on F-1 student visas or I think J-1 student visas as well. Sadly, the only way to get involved is through volunteering, which some of our mentors still do, but obviously we know that the financial reward is something that’s very important. And so that’s one thing that’s unfortunate. But for international mentors who are on OPT, CPT, or H1B visas or obviously on a green card, they are absolutely welcome to the paid side of the program. But again, just because of legal issues, we can’t with international students on student visas. Yeah. And I would also say in general, in terms of like what makes a good mentor, is someone who’s really excited about teaching, someone who likes connecting with young kids, and who has a little bit of extra time and energy to devote to this.

21:38 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. And if any international students or students on F-1 or J-1 visas are listening, I released an episode a few months back on what kind of side work is allowed for students on those visas. And it’s a very illuminating episode. So we’ll link it from the show notes, but yes, very clearly this would be considered self-employment income. And that is not a type of income that F-1 students can pursue except on OPT or CPT. So yeah, just want make that clear, but Jin, you’re kind of speaking from personal experience here. You know, you mentioned that you were an international student, at least when you first came to the States. So can you talk more about your experience founding this startup as an international student and someone pursuing their PhD? That’s a lot of things.

22:18 Jin: Totally. It was, I think emotionally, just so, dealing with American immigration is just, I think emotionally exhausting, and I’m still in the middle of it because now I’m actually in the middle of dealing with the green card process, which is a whole separate headache. But yeah, so I was on F-1 from undergrad until the beginning of my PhD. And then when I first established Polygence with my co-founder, I was still an F-1 and I just wasn’t getting paid. It was just sort of like a unpaid thing for the exact same reasons that we were talking about. And then when I decided I wanted to take time off and be paid by the company and do work on Polygence full-time, I then applied for part-time CPT because I wasn’t ABD yet. Like I wasn’t all but dissertation yet, so I couldn’t exactly just do OPT.

23:06 Jin: And so I was on part-time CPT for the first year of my full-time work with Polygence. And then I got married and then started the green card process after which I got the temporary EAD from work authorization thing. But all that to say, I think, yeah, navigating immigration and having an extra source of income as an international student, like I know full well to all of our listeners who are going through the same thing, like how much of an emotional drain it is. But there are ways to work around it. And sort of going back to our previous topic of how the department or how my own, you know, academic bosses dealt with it. They were actually really, really supportive of me actually taking time off even, partly because the job market is so dismal in the humanities that they’re like, if it’s one PhD candidate to fight for one job in comparative literature on a yearly basis, that’s, you know, a win for us. And so they were actually really supportive of me taking a break and helping me throughout the whole visa debacle.

Jin: What is Your Work-Life Balance and PhD Status?

24:14 Emily: So I definitely understand the pressures and the circumstances that led to you saying, okay, this is a solution. I need to take a pause in my program, do CPT for a bit. Are you back into pursuing the PhD actively now? Like what is your work-life balance going on right now?

24:32 Jin: Yeah, it’s still a little bit complicated right now. I’ve finally gotten to ABD. I was actually working somewhat on my perspectives and on my research during the first year of me being on CPT. But now that I’m all but dissertation, I can just take my time. I’m not being funded by Stanford at all. But I’m still sort of on paper enrolled so that I can still stay in housing and get health insurance, that kind of thing. But I am full-time working on the company.

24:59 Emily: Oh, that’s so interesting. Yeah. I didn’t realize you had that set up right now. So everybody hates this question. How long do you think it will take you to finish the PhD? Like when you have a full-time position and you’re doing this on the side, I know this is something that so many people get into when they are ABD, especially in fields like yours, where you don’t have to be in the lab and you’re not being funded by a grant and blah, blah, blah. So like just let us know a little bit more about how you’re managing both aspects of this work.

25:25 Jin: Yeah. It’s definitely a little hairy and tricky because I actually still have, I think one or two more courses that I’m supposed to teach at Stanford. But other than that I’m essentially just writing. And it depends on how quickly I write and how much time I can spare outside of working on the company. Right now, it’s not a lot of time that I can spare, just because I think the company just takes up all of my bandwidth and mind space. That being said, I definitely do want to finish it, because the research I’ve been doing and the novels that I’m working with are things that I care deeply about and derive a lot of intellectual satisfaction from. But I think it really is still a bit of a black box in terms of when I can devote myself to the extent that I would want to. And to the extent that the work deserves my attention while working on the company. So that is still a little bit unclear. I was thinking that maybe I could slowly chip away at the dissertation while working on the company, but that’s clearly not really happening. So I’m going to have to sort of kick the can a little bit further down the road.

Next Steps for Getting Involved with Polygence

26:30 Emily: Okay. Well, that was fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing. Let’s circle back to how people can get involved with Polygence if they want to. What is the next step, if they’re like, oh yeah, I’m really, really interested in becoming a mentor. I want to learn more.

26:42 Jin: Yeah. So the next step would to go to the link in the show notes. It’s our short mentor interest form. It takes three seconds to fill out. And once you fill that out, we basically ask you what discipline you’re in, where in your program. Yeah. What stage in your program you are, name, email, whether you have work authorization, very important. And then after that, we will ask you to schedule a 15-minute preliminary call with one of our mentor interviewers. And it’s where you can learn a little more about the program, ask questions about what students are like, what kinds of projects they do. And then after that interview, we will set you up on the platform with your own profile account. And then after that, we will start sending you students once we’ve done a background check on you as well. And then we have a lot of really cool mentor programming and scaffolding to help you get more comfortable with this kind of one-on-one Socratic project-based teaching model, where we offer sort of teaching demo preparation sessions, where we ask you to prepare a mock assignment. And we put you in groups with other new mentors, and maybe Stephen can talk a little more about those because he’s the leading a lot of them.

27:47 Stephen: Yeah. So the teaching demos, they’re the opportunity for incoming mentors who have been matched with a student to be able to kind of review some general tips and tricks essentially of, you know, how to kind of engage with the student initially, because we have a lot of mentors who come in with previous teaching experience, obviously, but with a particular format that we are trying to support. Sometimes it’s a little bit different, right? Because you mentioned earlier, Emily, about how like most of these teaching opportunities are typically in groups, which kind of affords a certain social flexibility. But when it’s, one-on-one, it’s a slightly different architecture, which requires, you know, a little bit more of a, like how do you motivate maybe a shy student or how do you engage with a student who’s very enthusiastic and maybe needs to kind of regain some semblance of focus? You know, those are just little things that can come up, but we, as, you know, mentor support team members, we want to make sure that mentors feel like they have access to the information that they’ll need to be as successful as possible with students, because their success very directly affects the success of the students. Right? So we want to make sure that we’re providing that kind of support.

Best Advice for an Early-Career PhD

28:55 Emily: I’m so glad to hear that you’re not just being thrown into like, as happens so often in academia, you’re just being thrown into a situation and expect that you already know what to do, and there’s no like clear way to go for help. Okay. That’s really good to hear. Awesome. So people know where they can go next and we will just wrap up by, I’ll ask you the same question that I ask of everyone that I interview on the podcast, which is what is your best financial advice for an early-career PhD? And Jin, why don’t you go first?

29:22 Jin: That is a million-dollar question. I would say be on top of your savings and make sure that you are saving at least a little bit every month. I know a lot of people, you know, also have student loans to deal with and other things. But I think what was really helpful for me is like really learning how to budget and make sure that on a weekly basis or even on a daily basis, I know how much is coming in and out of my accounts. And also if you’re able to, you know, have a little bit of fun as well, be kind to yourself because I think being a PhD student or any graduate student is really hard mentally and intellectually. And if you have, you know, a little bit of extra funds, whether it’s through Polygence or some other side hustle, treat yourself to something from time to time and just be kind to yourself because this is a marathon, not a sprint.

30:11 Stephen: Yeah. Well, for me, it works out best to use an Excel sheet honestly, right? For the budgeting. And I think that it’s good to kind of orchestrate what is good for you. For some people, they want to spend more money on food. Some people want to spend more money on free time, hobbies, whatever it might be. But I think kind of looking at what you have available to yourself, setting aside, obviously, a column for savings just for who knows what, but, you know, as Jin was saying, being able to kind of establish something to give yourself a break every once in a while and provide yourself some semblance of excitement, I think is really key. Because once you have that, you won’t feel the need to maybe overspend unnecessarily in certain segments of your life. And so I think that that can really be a great way to get the most out of what you have available as a grad student. For sure.

31:00 Emily: You both articulated that so well. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode and I hope that you have a great season of recruiting mentors. Hopefully, a few from this podcast.

31:10 Jin: Thank you, thanks for having us.

Outtro

31:10 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license prerecorded workshops on taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps! The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio, and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This Grad Student Plans to Contribute to His Roth IRA Using 529 Money

by

In this episode, Emily interviews Ben Wills, who is starting a master’s of science at Georgia Tech at age 29. They discuss the interesting jobs and experiences that Ben had in his 20s and why he is now pursuing a graduate degree. Ben’s main financial goals for graduate school are to not accumulate any debt and to max out his Roth IRA each year, and he shares how those goals align with his values. Ben and Emily discuss how to remove money from Ben’s 529 account without penalty to supplement his stipend and keep him on track to reach his financial goals while living in Atlanta.

Links Mentioned In This Episode

529 Roth IRA grad school

Teaser

00:00 Ben: Have a little kind of metacognitive experience and, you know, watch your feelings, watch the stories that are in your head and just have, you know, a sense of curiosity like, oh, where did this come from? And how is this helping?

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 1, and today my guest is Ben Wills, who is starting a master’s of science at Georgia Tech at age 29. Ben relays the interesting jobs and experiences that he had in his 20s and why he is now pursuing a graduate degree. Ben’s main financial goals for graduate school are to not accumulate any debt and to max out his Roth IRA each year, and he shares how those goals align with his values. We discuss how to remove money from his 529 account without penalty to supplement his stipend and keep him on track to reach his financial goals while living in Atlanta.

01:05 Emily: I’m excited to announce that with Season 10, we’re resuming a once-per-week publication schedule! Lots of great interviews are coming your way… which means I have to record lots of great interviews. If you are interested in being a guest on this podcast, you can do exactly what Ben did, which is to go to PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ and submit your info there. I highly encourage you to volunteer now as I will batch record interviews over the next few months that will be published through April 2022.

01:37 Emily: If you’ve listened to at least a couple of interviews you know that they are pretty low-key and casual. Many of my guests have told me that this was their first podcast interview ever and that the had a great time! Don’t worry if you’re not super sure of the topic of your interview. A lot of volunteers type a few ideas into the form and then we settle on one over email. Again, now is the time to volunteer! Go to PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/. I can’t wait to speak with you! Without further ado, here’s my interview with Ben Wills.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:13 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Ben Wills. He is entering graduate school in fall 2021. He’s going to be a master student, and is not quite a traditional student. He’s actually 29. And so we are going to be talking about his career-to-date, why he’s pursuing graduate school, and what his financial goals are going to be as a person with a little bit more financial experience than someone coming into graduate school right out of college. So, Ben, thank you so much for volunteering to be on the podcast. And will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

02:42 Ben: Sure thing, thanks for having me. Ben Wills, again, I use he/him pronouns as you got right. I am 29. I studied cognitive science as an undergrad way back when, at this point, and basically since undergrad, I’ve done kind of a potpourri of fun, like life-building, resume-building sorts of experiences as I’ve kind of approached it. So I spent an AmeriCorps year in Juneau, Alaska working with men who committed domestic violence and betters intervention programs. Then I worked at a law firm doing disability law for a couple of years, and I got funding from my Alma mater to do some research in Australia with a research mentor. And then I got my current job, which is, I’m a project manager and research assistant at a bioethics think tank in New York. And I’ve been here for almost three years and coming to the end of my tenure.

03:34 Emily: Wow. Let’s discuss that further in a minute. That was exciting. What is the program that you’re going into and where will you be?

03:40 Ben: Yeah, I am going to be starting a master’s in science in the history and sociology of technology and science at Georgia tech.

Work Experiences Prior to Master’s

03:49 Emily: All right. Congrats. And that is a mouthful. My graduate degree has many syllables as well and many words that sort of trip people up who aren’t in the field. So that’s fun. Well, yeah. Tell us more about these work experiences and like maybe was there a direction you were going in or you were just kind of looking for that like interesting, fun, next thing? Like how did that go?

04:09 Ben: Yeah, I basically knew that I will probably end up in a career where it’s kind of my career. You know, right now I’m looking at kind of going into a law or public policy sort of space after this degree. And if I get really sucked into, maybe academia. I kind of saw opportunities and did what felt right at the time. So for the AmeriCorps program, I was in college, I was working on a senior thesis, and I was just so focused on me and my work that I really felt like I needed to kind of turn my attention outwards. And so doing a year where it’s called a service year and the particular program I was in we were living in an intentional community, all like working in social service organizations, and we had a very kind of structured experience. And it was really perfect for me.

05:00 Ben: After focusing on magnetic resonance imaging of people and researching what the self is with a neuro imaging scanner, such a thing can be done, to focusing on, you know, humans and what people’s needs are and kind of like social context. So that was really important and generative for me. And then after that, I moved back home to my folks and I’ve been interested in law for a while, and I was fortunate enough to be connected to someone who was looking for a legal assistant. And so I started working at a law firm downtown. And then yeah, my Alma mater has this kind of pocket of money that you can apply to called the Maguire Fellowship. And you can basically use it to, it’s a competitive fellowship, but you can use it to fund study or independent research abroad.

05:51 Ben: And I had read a book called Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine in college that was really cool to me because she was one of the first people that I had read who within science talked about, kind of like, the social construct of science. And, you know, if you have scientists with, you know, gendered expectations of what, you know, men and women and other people’s kind of reality is, then those expectations will be born out in their research methods and their results. And that kind of blew my mind and I wanted to work with her. And so, you know, I just emailed her and said, Hey, if I get some money, can I come work with you? And she said, sure. So I applied for it and got it. So I was in Melbourne, Australia for a year.

06:29 Ben: Then, yeah, I was kind of testing what does law look like? What does academia look like? What is the intersection of the two kind of in a public policy sort of facing academic sort of situation? That’s where I am now, which is a place called the Hastings Center. And I’d actually taken a class with one of the scholars at my school, Vassar. He had adjuncted there, and his name is Erik Parens, and I took a class with him on the post-human future which is all about, you know, gene editing humans and all this sort of wild cool stuff. And I thought it was great. And I kept that kind of organization in the back of my mind when I was in Australia, applied to a project manager research assistant position there and got it. So I flew back to Oregon, bought a car, and 10 days later, I was in New York, starting up a new job.

Decision to Pursue Master’s in Science

07:20 Emily: Wow. This is so exciting. And what brought you specifically to the decision to pursue the master’s in science over maybe a law degree or some other kind of further education that you might do?

07:31 Ben: Yeah, so I think, you know, at this point I’m really interested in kind of doing more of an applied kind of work. So, you know, compared to the kind of academic environment that I’m interested in, which is, you know, a little bit more social science, humanities, I’m interested, you know, in terms of topic areas that I’m interested in. I was interested in doing more of an applied thing and, you know, when you’re going to law school, when you’re doing a terminal master’s in public policy, for example, those are kind of like, you know, they’re vocational schools basically. You’re getting a degree and you’re learning skills, and you’re learning a way of thinking. And I still had questions that I want to answer and kind of ways of thinking and topics of exploring. I’m particularly interested in direct consumer telemedicine like Hims and Hers and Roman.

08:15 Ben: If you’ve ever seen subway ads with phallic cacti or on your Instagram feed, those are advertisements from these direct to consumer telemedicine startups that I’m interested in kind of researching their kind of ethical implications. And I want to explore this more and you can’t really do that, you know, in law school. But I didn’t want to commit to a whole PhD, and Georgia Tech’s program is interdisciplinary. They have people who are coming from history of technology, coming from sociology of technology, also medical sociology. They have folks, faculty there, and it seemed like a great opportunity to kind of learn more about what I’m interested in without having to commit to a whole PhD to do it. And also, I was lucky enough to get funding to do that, which was a real difference maker.

09:03 Emily: Yeah, I was just going to say, I think the funding, like it’s clear from your work history. Like you’ve had some, not really jobs, but they come with money, right? Like the AmeriCorps thing, the fellowship that you did, or whatever it was, in Australia. So you have found a way to get money, at least some, while you’re still exploring these different areas. And the masters seems to be an extension of that as well.

09:25 Ben: I think that’s fair to say. Yeah, I definitely wouldn’t have done this program if I hadn’t gotten funding. I’m only going to take on debt for something that has a little bit more kind of monetizable potential.

Shifts in Money Mindset: From College to Present

09:38 Emily: Well, yeah, let’s talk more about the money stuff then. Through these various different jobs and experiences that you had since college, or maybe even before then, you know, what do you know about money or what is your money mindset right now that you think is different than what it was for you coming out of college or going into college?

09:57 Ben: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think college is a really weird time for finances. If you have the privilege that I did going to school, you know, I had to go to a school that had really good need-based financial aid, but I wasn’t financially independent. I didn’t have to make sure that I could afford rent and stuff. I was living on campus. And so I didn’t quite know how money worked really. So, and then living in Alaska, we all kind of shared expenses. Everything was very structured. So it was kind of, you know, the kiddie pool version of understanding what it is like to be a person who lives in a world where everything costs something. And so I think it was about the time I was 24 that I started living on my own for the first time, got a lease with a friend, and I started learning how things work. But of course I had some kind of money mindsets that I came up with.

10:48 Ben: And some of those were things like, my folks are very frugal and they went through a pretty lean time when I was in middle school. And so I definitely have a frugal kind of ethic. And I don’t spend money that I don’t need to. And I, you know, learned things like, you know, take advantage of credit card intro offers, but don’t carry a balance ever, ever, ever, or it’s not worth it. You know? So I was really lucky to learn some pretty smart ways of thinking about money from my folks. And also my mom does kind of investing almost as a hobby. She gets really into, you know, managing my dad’s and hers, you know, retirement finances, and, you know, thinking about how, you know, the best way to kind of help them to retire. She’s 10 years older than my dad and close to retirement. So this is something that’s very much on her mind and I’ve learned a lot from what she’s been able to learn, which I consider myself very lucky. Because I think, you know, this kind of, what you don’t know costs you. And that’s not fair, but I’m glad that I know what I know.

11:47 Emily: I’m really interested in hearing more about your AmeriCorps experience in particular, because I don’t think I’ve interviewed anyone on the podcast who did AmeriCorps, we haven’t had a detailed discussion about it. But I, as a person who didn’t do it, kind of think about AmeriCorps as even more financially difficult than your average grad student situation, like living on less. And I understand a lot of it is like, it has to be subsidized like your housing and your food and so forth in many places. So how do you think that you having had an AmeriCorps experience in your past, how do you think that specifically affects how you’re thinking about graduate school and your finances in graduate school?

12:25 Ben: Yeah. Great question. I think, so the interesting thing is, so it’s an AmeriCorps program, but it was AmeriCorps-funded to an organization called Jesuit Volunteer Corps Northwest, which has existed since before AmeriCorps existed. And so they take funding from the federal government for that, but they, you know, they already have a house where I lived, you know, they put me with these other people. And you know, the house’s rent is like prearranged with the landlord. So there’s a lot of that sort of stuff, which is so stressful about moving to a new place and expensive about moving to a new place. You know, it’s already furnished. The house just gets, you know, new people every year. So that was great. But you’re right. We had very little money. You know, we had, I think like $180 a month for fun, a hundred dollars a month for fun total. That’s if you want a burger, if you want a beer, if you want to, you know, take an Uber, whatever. You know, and we were challenged to not access any money that we had saved, but to actually try to live within our means.

13:27 Ben: And so I know, you know, preparing me for grad school. I know that I can live leanly. We, I think our whole house lived, we were six people and we spent $80 a week on food. Like we ate a lot of rice and beans, and if it’s beans and rice then that’s two dishes. You know, so I don’t intend to be living quite as lean, but I know that like, you know, I know that I can do that. And I definitely have some kind of ethic about like, do I really, is it going to be that much worse to do the easier option and save a lot of money, you know, for any particular thing? One example of that ethic is, you know, when I flew from Australia back to Portland at the end of my tenure, it was like $400 cheaper to fly to Seattle and then take a train down.

14:13 Ben: And so I did that. And you know, it’s kind of looking for that sort of thing. I think that’s a little bit of a mindset that I’ve picked up with my family. It was reinforced with AmeriCorps. And just one more thing quickly on that, you know, there’s definitely some negative sides to, you know, I think I still have a little bit of kind of a food scarcity mindset, you know, I’m always like, Hmm, this fridge is looking a little bare. You know, because we did run lean, you know, so there’s positives and negatives as well, but that was all part of it. And I’m, I’m really glad for the experience.

Financial Goals for Graduate School

14:40 Emily: I can’t remember where I heard this from, but it was recently and it was some well-known personal finance personality who phrased it something like spending money, like this is this person’s default mindset. Spending money is a failure of creativity. Like you can get anything or just about anything for no money, little money. And it’s only a matter of, do you want to put in the effort to be creative and you know, maybe take some extra time or something? Or do you want to go, as you were just saying, the easy route, which is spending a little bit more money to get, you know, the convenient option. So I’m not, I mean, that’s a very extreme view, but I can see a little bit of that, you know, in, in what you were describing. So going into graduate school again with your stipend, do you want to share what your stipend is by the way?

15:28 Ben: Yeah, so the standard graduate stipend is about $18,000. I have a little internal fellowship on top of that. That brings me up to about 22 or 23. And then I can also work as a research assistant for a faculty member and also work a little bit over the summer. So my understanding is that I can make between 30 and up to $36,000 a year, most likely.

15:57 Emily: And are you, have you already arranged for that assistantship or do you know that’s coming or is it like a possibility?

16:04 Ben: It sounds like an “everybody who wants one can get one” kind of a thing, is my understanding. So I haven’t started that process yet.

16:13 Emily: Okay. I feel a little bit relieved because when you said 18, I was going, oh no, Atlanta. Wow. Okay. But no 30. Yeah. Okay. We’re getting into a reasonable range there for, you know, for a graduate student. And so knowing that stipend or that range that you’ll be receiving, you know, looking at that, looking at the cost of living and so forth, what are your financial goals, if any, for graduate school?

16:35 Ben: Yeah, I think I have two big goals, which is to not go into debt, and continue to try to fully fund my retirement. I think that’s maybe a big thing that sets me apart from just people who are just coming out of undergrad is I’ve realized and, you know, thanks to folks in my life who have impressed this upon me, how important it is to, you know, save for retirement. And if literally, if all you do is max out your Roth IRA from the time you’re like 19 or 20, you can probably retire comfortably. You know, if you just do that, or comfortably enough. And that’s huge. And I know, you know, that what I wasn’t contributing as a 20 or 21-year-old, it’s all the more important that I, you know, max out my Roth IRA contributions now. So when I talked about that with the graduate advisor, that was, you know, that’s something that certainly wasn’t on her mind for us. And maybe a lot of graduate students aren’t thinking about that, you know, but for me, I’m not expecting to come into a lot of money later in life, and I want to be financially stable, and I don’t want to work until I’m 95. So those are the two main things, I think. Also have little fun maybe.

Retirement Savings History

17:45 Emily: Yeah, well, fun can be frugal, but if you want to max out that Roth IRA, there’s a definite dollar sign attached to that. What’s been your history with retirement investing through these various different jobs? Have you been able to do some or has it been kind of patchy?

17:59 Ben: Hmm. Yeah, I think it’s depended. I have typically, I think after the AmeriCorps year, I have contributed at least some to my Roth IRA. With my current job, they have a fantastic 403(b) program, which is like a 401(k) for nonprofits, I think. And they do a match, too. So what I do is I do the minimum for the full match from them. And then I contribute because I like Vanguard better than TIAA-CREF. I contribute to my Roth IRA separately. So I’m doing the best now that I’ve ever done as far as that’s concerned, but I have been contributing you know, anywhere from a couple thousand to the cap for the past five years or so.

18:45 Emily: Yeah. That’s great. And I love that you have these two goals that you articulated, don’t go into debt and max out the Roth IRA. I mean, as you said, like just those two things alone, you’re going to be in such good shape. You know, if you can do that through your master’s program or if you decide to go on for the PhD as well. Those are two very, very strong goals. How do you think you’re going to make it happen? Like, have you done any projections about cost of living in Atlanta? And you said you’re moving from New York there, right? So it’s going to be a big cost of living difference.

19:14 Ben: Yeah, actually it’s interesting. So I’m in Beacon, New York right now, which is in the mid-Hudson Valley. And Beacon is not cheap. My current living situation with utilities is probably $750, $800 a month, a room in a house. And so I think it’s realistic to get about that in Atlanta, just from the little bit of Craigslist slewthing that I’ve done so far. So I haven’t done a lot of planning. For all the stuff that I know about what you’re supposed to do with money, I’m not very good at actually budgeting for, for worse. But I think my mindset is assuming that expenses are not going to be that much different.

19:55 Emily: Okay. And when is your, when are you planning on moving?

20:01 Ben: My family is going camping in mid-August. And so I think I’m going to try to move right after that, which will mean that I’ll be like moving into a place and starting school in like five days, or something like that, in the mid-August heat and humidity which will be a heck of a time. But that’s what I’m thinking about right now.

529 Tax-Advantaged Savings Account

20:20 Emily: Yeah, that’s great. We’re recording this in April, 2021. So you still have quite a bit of time to be planning and finding a place and finding that assistantship and so forth. And I understand as well that you have a 529 that you wanted to talk about. And so for the listeners who do not know what that is, do you want to explain briefly what a 529 is and how you got one?

20:42 Ben: Yeah. Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding of a 529 is it’s a tax-advantaged savings account specifically for qualified educational expenses. So you can put money in there and then, you know, there are tax advantages that I think depends on the state at least to what the tax advantages are, but then you can spend that money on things like tuition, room and board, fees, other sorts of things.

21:11 Emily: That’s exactly right. But just to add onto it, so the growth, so money that’s contributed to a 529, similar to an IRA, typically if you invest it, it’s going to grow. And that growth is tax-free as long as when you end up withdrawing it, it’s for, as you said, the 529 definition of qualified education expenses, which is like tuition and also living expenses for a full-time student. And it depends on what state you live in, whether or not there is a tax advantage on the contributions. So there’s no federal like deduction the way you could have for like a traditional IRA, but your state, depending on what state you live in, when you do the contribution, they might give you a tax break on their state tax for doing the contributions. And it’s most common for parents to do this for their children or their grandchildren or something like that. So it’s something that often people start when their children are very young, so there’s lots of time for the investments to grow.

22:02 Ben: Yeah. And to the second part of your question, in my particular case, my folks did this great thing where, you know, I was expected to contribute two or $3,000 a year to my education in undergrad that I made from working over the summers. And my folks said, we’re going to take that money, instead of sending it to Vassar, basically, I think, we’ll cover that. And we’ll just hold it in a 529. And so when you go to grad school, you better go to grad school, when you go to grad school, that’ll be there and have grown and be there waiting for you.

Commercial

22:39 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or post-bac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item number one: fill out the estimated tax worksheet in form 1040ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2021 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15th, 2021. Action item number two: whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate named savings account for your future tax payments, calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax, and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account and to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives. If you need some help with the estimated tax worksheet, or want to ask me a question, please join my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. Go to PFforPhds.com/QETax, to learn more about and join the workshop. Now, back to our interview.

529: To Use or Not to Use?

24:19 Emily: Yeah, so you have this nice little nest egg that’s available to you but is kind of specifically tied for education expenses. So what are your thoughts about that? Like, is it something that you want to draw on during graduate school or that you feel you have to, or what are your thoughts?

24:35 Ben: Yeah, well, it’s kind of a use it, or it just sits there sort of thing. So I guess if I didn’t use it, then I would have to be doing something like giving it to my sister if she just needs it or giving it to a cousin or something like that, I suppose. So I definitely want to use it. And one of the questions in my head is like, does it make sense to use it now? Or if I’m probably, but not definitely, going to something like law school or a public policy program or even a PhD, you know, I could definitely use it for those. So would it make more sense to use it now or later, is one question I have. That’s kind of what I’m thinking about. And the way I’ve thought it is, basically, it would be really hard to max out my Roth IRA while earning between 30 and $36,000 a year at the most. But if I have, you know, the 529 is worth about $12,000. If I pull $6,000 a year from the Roth IRA, or excuse me from the 529, that covers my Roth IRA contribution. So it would be as if I was making 36 to $42,000 a year and maxing my Roth IRA contribution. And that sounds pretty good to me. That sounds doable. So that’s kind of how I’m thinking about it is making that possible.

25:56 Emily: Yeah, I was thinking kind of the same thing, because you were phrasing it just now as like using the money in the 529, but I’m thinking about it more as getting the money out of the 529 in a reasonable way where you’re not going to be taxed and all the growth and so forth. Just getting it out so that you can use it for whatever, if that is your Roth IRA contribution, I mean, money is fungible, right? So it could be the Roth IRA. It could be anything else. It doesn’t really matter. But yeah, to give you that extra cushion, and then let’s say it was sort of a, it feels like almost direct, like withdrawal from the 529 and a contribution $6,000 to the IRA. All you’re doing then is making the money more flexible actually, right? Because in the first case, it can only be used for these well, without penalty, can only be used for these qualified education expenses, versus with the Roth IRA, well, you can withdraw your contributions at any time or you can leave it and let it grow for the decades and, you know, withdraw it tax-free and so forth.

26:50 Emily: So yeah, I really see it more of it as not using the money, but just transferring the money to some other place in an indirect way, which you can only do without taxes and penalties and so forth when you have qualified education expenses as you do in this upcoming phase of life. Another thing to think about, another twist in this is, and I don’t know, I haven’t looked it up for Georgia Tech, but some, especially public, universities do allow their graduate students who are employees to contribute to the university’s 403(b) or 457. So that’s also something to look into before you, again, make a final decision about what to do with the 529 is, do I have access not only to a Roth IRA, but also a 403(b) or 457? And could I even supercharge my retirement savings above that $6K per year level? Yeah. So something else to think about.

457 Retirement Plan

27:39 Ben: What’s a 457?

27:42 Emily: 457 is another tax-advantaged retirement account. It’s a little bit similar to a 401(k). So 401(k) and 403(b) are very similar to one another, as you said. One is in the private sector, one is in the nonprofit sector. A 457 was originally constructed, I guess, for like highly-compensated employees. And so it’s available usually in addition to a 403(b) or something similar. But in some cases, at universities, it seems that it’s often, if they have one, it’s sometimes available to any employee, not just, you know, C-suite or whatever. So just something to look into whether or not there is one, whether or not you’re eligible for it. And the 457 has some slightly different benefits than a 403(b) does. If I remember correctly, you can actually access the money more easily than you can in a 403(b), like you don’t have to be like retirement age necessarily to do it. So I’m speaking a little bit out of my like zone of competency here, but yes, it’s sometimes available to graduate student employees.

28:43 Ben: Cool. Thanks.

What Are Qualified Education Expenses?

28:46 Emily: The other thing that I wanted to hit on with this discussion of 529s is what are qualified education expenses. And, you know, longtime listeners of the podcast or readers of my other material know that that term, qualified education expenses, is something that we talk about a lot with respect to figuring out your income tax as a graduate student. Now, and if you have dived really deep into my material, you know that there’s a different definition of qualified education expense for each different tax benefit that you might be talking about. And so it turns out that 529s, or qualified tuition programs, have their own definition of qualified education expenses that is vastly different from the other ones. So you mentioned earlier that qualified education expenses include tuition fees. You know, we’re, we’re accustomed to those things being qualified education expenses, but in the case of 529s, that also includes your expected living expenses.

29:38 Emily: I can’t remember what’s the exact term the universities use, like cost of attendance, I think, which is inclusive of both the educational expenses and also reasonable living expenses, whether you would be living on campus or off campus. Cost of attendance is something that I think comes up a lot for undergrads, but not so much for funded graduate students, but it’s really relevant for our conversation of getting money out of a 529. And one really good episode to listen to which I did previously on the podcast is season two, episode nine, with Seonwoo Lee. And we’re talking about 529s in that episode as well, but it’s from a different, a little bit of a different perspective, but it’s still a conversation about what is a qualified education expense and what are the anticipated educational expenses that you can use to remove money from a 529 without penalty. And so in your case, have you calculated like how much you would be able to get out of the 529 per year using that anticipated cost of attendance?

30:34 Ben: Yeah, so I think the, you know, again I have about 12 and change thousand dollars in there. And the estimated cost of attendance I think is about just by happenstance, Seonwoo also goes to Georgia Tech. So he mentioned that it was about $10,000. So if those numbers are still good, then, tell me if I’m wrong, but I feel like I’m pretty in the clear. You know, I’ll probably take about half of the 529 out each of the two years I’m in the program and that’ll go underneath the $10,000. And even if I do the thing that he was talking about, contribute $2,000 into a Georgia state 529 and pull it out for the tax advantage, credit deduction, whatever it is that’ll still be under the total of $10,000. I don’t know if that’s how it works. I assumed that I couldn’t like, yeah, like pull $10,000 out and then add $2,000 at the Georgia one and then be over my cost of attendance. I don’t know, but I don’t think I would do that anyway.

31:35 Emily: Yeah, that sounds right to me. So the way that you calculate how much money you could get out of a 529 each year is you have to take the total cost of attendance, and then you have to subtract from that all of your tax-free money. So in your case, if you’re fully funded, it would be like tuition and fees and so forth. So the cost of attendance is going to be reduced to, again, if you’re fully funded, it’s essentially just the portion of the cost of attendance that is like your living expenses. And so, I don’t know, $10,000 per year sounds really low to me, but I would have to look at the numbers too. So whatever it is, as long as you don’t have tax-free funding that is already paying for that, then that’s your cap for removing money from the 529 for that given year. And anyway, all of this, I was just reviewing it before our conversation. All of this is in publication 970 chapter eight, which is called qualified tuition program.

529 is Typically NOT in the Name of the Student

32:30 Emily: Yeah. Anything else you want to talk about regarding 529s? It’s an interesting and unusual topic for me.

32:36 Ben: Maybe just, this might be useful for listeners is I just remember that my mom did something kind of tricky or clever with 529s where she had it like, in her name, not in my name, because if it was in my name for undergrad, they would’ve taken all that money. And if it was in her name, I guess they, you know, the financial aid office looked at it differently or something like that. I never got the full story from her, but is that right? Is that how that works?

33:08 Emily: I don’t know exactly the mechanics of it, but it is recommended that 529 money be in the name of the parent or the grandparent, whoever’s doing the contributing, not in the name of the student. And I do think it’s for those FAFSA type calculations that it’s again, weighted less heavily in the assets of the family if it’s held technically by the parent. And in a 529, you have to designate a beneficiary. So you’re presumably the designated beneficiary on this particular 529, but it’s very easy to switch the beneficiary. So the money still belongs to your parents, so they could, you know, yoinks it away from you if they wanted to, because it’s theirs until it’s actually, you know, removed for your qualified education expenses and so forth. But that’s why it’s really easy to just choose a different beneficiary and move the money from, you know, let’s say in the case of like my family. So I’m about to start 529s for my two children. And I don’t really care whose beneficiary name is on it because I’m just considering it for either child. And if the oldest one has some leftover, I would just switch it to the younger one because I’m thinking of it as my money, right? Until later on in life. So yeah, so it’s really easy to switch the beneficiary and it does make sense for the contributor or the parent or whoever to hold it.

34:20 Ben: Okay.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career Grad Student

34:22 Emily: Yeah. Well, it’s been so much fun to talk with you, Ben, and it’s a very kind of different story for the podcast listeners. So I’m excited about that. The question that I end all my interviews with is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD or graduate student perhaps in your case?

34:40 Ben: I think of two things. One is to remember that like, money is real. And sometimes you feel like you can plug your ears and shut your eyes and it’s less real, but it’s still sitting there or not sitting there. So for me, it’s really helpful to try to develop a relationship with my money where I’m not, you know, checking my balance on my phone and going, you know, I just, I don’t want to have a contentious emotional relationship with money. You know, like, the world is structured to make us feel nervous about money. And I don’t think that it’s a healthy relationship to have if you have the ability to not be nervous about it in that way. So, you know, I try to check it more often, just, you know, just so I know what’s going on and there’s no mysteries, because it’s all internal to me, it’s all my own money.

35:33 Ben: And the other thing is there’s this really insidious idea that like, in order to feel like, like we’re told that we need to buy things for ourselves because we deserve it or because we need to like treat ourselves. And so people, you know, like I just saw this person who was like living in her parents’ house, not a lot of money, she’s like, should I buy like the iPhone, like 12, actually the iPhone 12, you know, gajillion or something like that. And like, you know, you do what you want with your money. I’m not here to like make moral judgements, but she was doing it in kind of the mindset of like, I want to treat myself or I deserve it or that sort of thing. And that is just a load of bologna that like marketers have worked really hard on for the past 20 years to be like, you deserve this meal, you deserve this trip, you know?

36:20 Ben: And like the more we can extract ourselves from like taking in that, like marketing lingo of like what we deserve and don’t deserve based on you know, like what is expensive or not expensive, if we can kind of like, you know, develop a more internal sense of like, you know, rewarding ourselves and not have it be based on how expensive something is. Like, you know, I love myself a lot. So I’m spending, you know, more on myself to get the nicer thing or whatever, you know, it’s like, I don’t know, it just makes me kind of sad. And so I guess my advice is to like, you know, kind of have a little kind of metacognitive experience and, you know, watch your feelings, watch the stories that are in your head, and just have, you know, a sense of curiosity, like, oh, where did this come from? And how is this helping me?

37:10 Emily: Wow. Yeah. I find both of those points to be super insightful. And actually we could probably do a whole other episode just on what you just mentioned about like observing feelings that arise in yourself when you think about money and so forth. I love that point, but it’s a great one to end on. And Ben, thank you so much for joining me today. It was really fun to talk with you.

37:28 Ben: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you.

Outtro

37:31 Emily: Listeners. Thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license prerecorded workshops on taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.