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The Importance of Financial Student Services to Graduate Students on Stipends

October 6, 2025 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Zach Taylor, a repeat podcast guest with extensive expertise in financial wellness in higher education. Zach explains why financial peer mentoring programs have become so popular at colleges and universities and why peers are not always the appropriate people to provide this service. Zach and Emily discuss why colleges and universities provide financial wellness support and how it’s beneficial to both students and institutions. Finally, Zach shares how grad/prof students, and particularly those who are non-traditional and/or experiencing financial insecurity, can access university and community resources.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • Dr. ZW Taylor’s Google Scholar
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • PF for PhDs S5E10: Learn From This Poor Kid-Turned-PhD Student’s Different Perspective on Frugality and Debt (Part 1)
  • PF for PhDs S5E11: Learn From This Poor Kid-Turned-PhD Student’s Different Perspective on Frugality and Debt (Part 2)
  • Host a PF for PhDs Seminar at Your Institution
  • Emily’s E-mail Address
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
The Importance of Financial Student Services to Graduate Students on Stipends

Teaser

ZW (00:00): They’re realizing that a basic needs covered student finishes on time, they’re engaged, they network, they pursue those pre-professional career opportunities so they get a job after graduation. It is in these students’ best interests, therefore should be in the institution’s best interest.

Introduction

Emily (00:28): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (00:56): This is Season 22, Episode 4, and today my guest is Dr. Zach Taylor, a repeat podcast guest with extensive expertise in financial wellness in higher education. Zach explains why financial peer mentoring programs have become so popular at colleges and universities and why peers are not always the appropriate people to provide this service. Zach and I discuss why colleges and universities provide financial wellness support and how it’s beneficial to both students and institutions. Finally, Zach shares how graduate and professional students, and particularly those who are non-traditional and/or experiencing financial insecurity, can access university and community resources.

Emily (01:40): You’re probably listening to this podcast because you’re interested in improving your own practice of personal finance, and you want to learn the best PhD-specific strategies. Well, you don’t have to listen through the entire episode archive to do so. Instead, go to PFforPhDs.com/advice/ and enter your name and email there. You’ll receive a document that contains short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast to my final question regarding my guests’ best financial advice. The document is updated with each new episode release. Plus, you’ll be subscribed to my mailing list to receive all the latest updates there. Again, that URL was PFforPhDs.com/advice/. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s22e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Zach Taylor.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:44): I am delighted to have on the podcast today a repeat guest, Dr. Zach Taylor. He was actually first on the podcast all the way back in season five, episodes 10 and 11, and it’s been such a pleasure to know Zach over the past more than five years, six plus years. I think now we’re both part of this, um, higher education financial wellness alliance community. So very concerned about, um, financial wellness in higher education. I’m there to kind of remind people, Hey, like you have graduate students on your campus too. Um, Zach does that as well because he has a PhD and in our prior episode we talked a lot about Zach’s background, childhood, um, his choice of where to attend graduate school, um, how to make that work financially, which was really challenging, high cost of living city, and lots of detail there about Zach’s background. So Zach, I would love for you to catch us up on what’s been going on for you professionally, um, personally as well, if you want in the last, you know, five plus years since our previous interview.

ZW (03:43): Absolutely. Yeah. I mean since, uh, 2020 nothing has changed, right? So I’m the exact same person doing the exact same thing, of course not. Um, yeah, so I, you know, after the, shortly after the interview came out, I graduated and earned my PhD, finished up that work, began working for a guarantee agency in doing communications consulting for minority serving institutions in the south. And uh, shortly afterwards took a tenure track position at the University of Southern Mississippi as an assistant professor of educational research and did a lot of financial wellness and financial education stuff as part of that position. And very recently I took a role that I think is really well suited to my personal background in childhood. And some of the things you talked about with me last time I chatted with you is I just started as the inaugural Director of Research and Strategic initiatives for John Burton, advocates for Youth.

ZW (04:43): So we are a nonprofit in California focused on improving the lives of foster youth and homeless youth through policy advocacy research, some direct service, making sure that every single little pot of money and every single opportunity is afforded to foster youth and homeless youth. And as a lot of folks know, California is really the epicenter for a lot of very inclusive policies, as may have been very well publicized by a certain governor of California very recently. But also there’s lots of inequity here. There are many, many foster youth. California is one of the leading, uh, states in the country, unfortunately in number of foster youth, homeless youth. And so it’s really a pleasure to be part of this organization and feel like I’m really nerding out for good <laugh> and serving other people. Um, so really happy to be back and to get caught up. And lots has changed, I’m sure for your listenership as well. But really happy to be here and chat with you again.

Peer Financial Mentoring Programs

Emily (05:44): Yes, that sounds so delightful. Oh, amazing. So we decided to focus our interview today around peer financial mentoring, which is something. We’ve never covered on the podcast before, <laugh>. So I’m really excited about this because it’s only something that I learned about through my attendance annually of the higher education financial wellness summit. Um, I noticed that a lot of financial wellness and financial education programs in schools across the country had these peer mentoring programs, but my kind of impression about it was that it’s mostly used by undergrads, mostly for undergrads. And so I’m aware of it, but I don’t necessarily talk about it that much or pay attention to it. But I think that this conversation may change my ideas about that. So can you tell me like what these programs are and like why they’re so popular?

ZW (06:30): Yes, and so over the past 20 years, higher education funding models and what is funding and formula and where the money comes from has drastically changed. And you really are seeing a rise in student employment and student employment opportunities. A lot of folks who listen to this podcast may have been federal, federal work study students way back in the day, right? Emily, you’re included in that. So that was at least the initial kind of foray into very kinda wide student employment in higher ed. But it’s kind of got this coinciding parallel development where there’s a high impact practice and very engaging successful practice of immersing students in a campus community, employing them at their school, making sure that they’re developing professional connections with their peers and with professionals who admissions financial aid, recreational sports, all sorts of stuff. But the parallel development has been this slow winnowing and cutting away of state appropriations to higher education where institutions are a little less likely now to pay somebody full-time with a bachelor’s or master’s degree to do something on campus.

ZW (07:47): And that re-envisioning on that position really has been relegated and delegated to student employees. So you’re seeing a lot of times now, especially on very large four year campuses, students doing the work that used to be done by a full-time credential, bachelor’s degree holding employee. That has been a very big shift, and especially I can speak much more to financial aid offices. It never used to be the case where a student’s financial aid paperwork was being processed by a peer, especially a peer before they graduated because of the fi-, you know, the financial security and sensitivity that information. But colleges, universities, community colleges are not in the financial point and space to be able to start saying, students can and cannot do this work. We need students to kind of do a lot of the work administratively that we do. And so that has naturally just trickled into mentoring programs and specifically peer mentoring programs of all different shapes and sizes.

ZW (08:47): I remember when I was an undergraduate, I went to an institution that I knew only really had one mentoring program. It was a summer bridge program. It was for first generation and low income students that eventually fed into Trio, the federal Trio program for low income and kind of marginalized that promise students now go to a typical college or university. It’s much more prominent the four year schools and the community colleges. But there’s peer mentoring for academic major, for extracurricular activities, for uh, for, for sports, for um, uh, social clubs and affinity groups. There are so many different types of mentoring programs because colleges and universities and institutions saw benefit of connecting peers to peers, but it’s also outta that financial necessity. So as everything in some ways kind of happens first at the undergrad level, as the financial pressures are hitting graduate schools, professional schools, law schools, medical schools, they’ll, they’re also seeing, Hey, wait a minute, a lot of these folks have a lot to offer their peers. Let’s start creating peer-to-peer mentoring programs.

ZW (09:54): And so now there are dozens of these peer-to-peer, specifically financial mentoring programs embedded in medical schools and in law schools where somebody, it’s very common tale. You might have a double major whose, uh, anatomy, physiology and business and they eventually wanna become a doctor. They go to med school, they’ve got that little bit of business background. They learned about taxation, about personal accounting, personal finance, and they’re pretty well suited and know a little bit more about money management than peers do. Who becomes a peer mentor of people who can be late twenties, thirties, forties. We know the graduate school population is very age diverse, but if you have a subject matter expertise and knowledge, you can mentor a peer across age and across difference. You’re seeing a lot more of that at the graduate school level. So that is kind of the trajectory of where peer mentoring has come from. Used to be very kind of strictly kind of social and academic. And now it’s really apparent in the financial wellness community and it’s trickled up to graduate schools now.

Emily (11:01): That’s fascinating. I was not aware that that pattern was also within like those professional schools. And it, it does make a lot of sense to me, especially if we, and I, I think this is true at a lot of . At any rate, if we saw the genesis of that from the financial aid offices, because there’s a lot of student loan counseling and so forth, very important area that would apply very well within the professional schools as well. A little bit different among funding graduate students, but still there’s a great need for it, even if the subject that you might talk about is like slightly different. So thank you so much for telling us like that, like history about it. But is this a universal good? Does everybody get exactly what they’re looking for out of a peer mentoring program? Or are there some like downsides to administering the help in this way?

Downsides of Peer Financial Mentoring Programs

ZW (11:43): Yeah, so one, if you are a peer mentor, that inherently implies that you are not a professional in the space, right? You’re a very well-educated, maybe well-intentioned peer, but you do not know everything for everybody. And there has been many documented cases at the graduate and undergraduate level where a peer gives some sort of financial advice. And we see in these kind of areas of taboo topics of areas that peers shouldn’t talk with peers about things like specific investments, gambling, betting, you know, things like that where it’s, it’s you should really be talking to a licensed professional at a financial institution about this kind of stuff. I go real professional about this. So one is a little bit of danger is when you unleash the peers who knows what information they unleash, whether it’s pre-professional, professional or otherwise, sometimes the information can be misleading or wrong or sometimes very kind of financially dangerous. So there’s also that point.

ZW (12:43): There’s also, especially at the graduate school level you just mentioned, you know, with those students that may have very different financial circumstances and maybe, maybe you are a fully funded student and, and maybe you don’t have, uh, the, the loan debt to navigate, but some students who raise their hand and want peer mentoring have such dire, specific timely needs that might be so tied to basic needs to a medical bill that has to be paid. That a a rent check has to clear that it’s so important that their issue is solved in a timely manner, otherwise they’re really at risk of of stopping out, dropping out or worse. And at that point then, do you want to put that person in that crisis situation in that very traumatic moment in front of a peer who may not be prepared to deliver trauma informed care? Are they professional enough? Do they have the resources necessary to really delegate services to someone who is in a crisis moment, is in a traumatic moment? And so we’ve seen a little bit more of this, especially at the graduate school level of students who are not fully funded. And this is particularly the case in, in medical schools where some of the medical school debt, we, we know hundreds of thousands of dollars, right?

ZW (14:14): So someone’s approaching graduation and I was talking with a colleague about this at a major public flagship in the Midwest as a medical school student. They were hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and they were coming with a very dire problem related to credit card debt. They started racking up the student loan debt. That number became scary for them. So they started racking up the credit card debt and they came to a peer financial mentoring session with a peer to talk about how to consolidate $80,000 of credit card debt across six or seven different cards. And they were looking at still graduating with, you know, a little over a quarter a million dollars of student loan debt. Now that gravity, the weight of that problem and the issue and all of the very long-term ramifications it has, that’s where is this the best way to serve graduate students is by connecting with a peer? Especially when you know the earning potential of someone coming out of some graduate programs, especially in the harder sciences and law, you know, you know how to manage your money, invest well, you can be out of debt in five to 10 to 15 years very easily and beyond the track to upper middle class or or or higher lifestyle.

ZW (15:32): It becomes a little bit more of a problem with graduate students who are in the social sciences and the humanities, right? So thinking like your English PhD, it might be a very, you know, stereotypical example. What do you do with a PhD in English kind of thing? A la Avenue Q, right? What do you do with a degree in English? And at the certain point, do you wanna have somebody who is potentially racking up tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt going to graduate school knowing that the earning potential of that student is much, much lower? Does a peer understand that career trajectory? It’s a very different series of tips and, and advice and counseling you give someone when the entry point into the labor market is, is gonna inherently be much, much lower, at least initially than somebody who’s majoring in a STEM field or a financial field or a law or a legal field. So you can see how you start sketching out a few of the scenarios that I’ve talked to folks about and you can really kind of begin to question great intention, great idea to connect peers with peers, especially at the graduate school level. ’cause you may be, you know, graduate schools might have more adult experience, they’d be a little bit more knowledgeable on the flip side, adults can have even more dire, even more emergency type financial situations. Do you wanna put a peer in that spot? I don’t know if it’s best practice, but schools are doing it.

Emily (16:57): Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve made some of the same like observations like, wow, this financial situation or issue that you’ve come to me with and I don’t really even do coaching. Um, this is just people who communicate with me. It’s like, this is so above my pay grade <laugh>. Like, you need, you need debt counseling or you need a bankruptcy consideration or you know, there’s, it really can escalate in the financial realm. And so I’m wondering now have you seen programs, do they have a way for peers to escalate cases? Like, hey, you really need to talk to the staff member who is my supervisor because this is now beyond the realm of my training or life experience.

ZW (17:39): Yeah, so this is a, this is much better developed from what I can tell at the undergraduate level. But here’s the undergraduate version and we can kind of transpose to graduate level is there’s got to be that trusted adult who is the trainer of these students to know, here’s the clear dividing line. If someone in your mentoring session crosses this line, here’s where you go with this issue. Many stories we’ve heard at the undergraduate level where we are triaging with a case worker or a social worker on the issue that you’re having, we are gonna connect you to a financial institution. We’re gonna connect you to someone in legal at our institution. ’cause we think this is actually potentially a crime that you may be discussing, committing related to your finances. So it could be very serious, very, very quickly.

Costs of Hiring Professional Financial Advisors for University Students

ZW (18:25): At the graduate level. Here is what I’m hearing is kind of a little bit of the problem is that typically a financial counselor, like a really professional credential person, fill in the blank about their hourly rate. I mean typically, and this is kind of what colleges and universities that I’ve work with have kind of found is if they wanted to hire and vend this out as a third party, if they wanted to have somebody kind of full-time to be a personal financial counselor for graduate students, something along 250 to $300 an hour times the number of graduate students you have times the number of hours they may work a week, it very quickly becomes very unaffordable. And then you think to yourself, okay, well how many segregated and unsegregated fees are part of this program? And there’s this whole kind of rhetoric around tacking on schools, tacking on fees for every single bit and it becomes less understandable for graduate students who are enrolling about what their financial aid may and may not cover. And what am I responsible for now and I’m not gonna get paid for the first two months of my assistantship. How do I cover these fees that are due in the first day of classes? Things like that. So schools are a little bit hesitant at the sticker shock of how much it does cost to hire professional financial advisors to work as part of kind of a, a graduate program.

ZW (19:48): And so that’s one issue that I, I think over time, especially with financial value transparency, which is a, a really current hot button issue in financial aid as well as gainful employment colleges and universities, especially at the graduate level where the student loan debt or some programs is. So high institutions need to report the indebtedness, the loan default rates, all sorts of things to the federal government for, you know, kind of basic accountability measures. As those accountability measures are even more scrutinized in the coming years, I think those graduate programs are eventually gonna come around to maybe this is a worthwhile expense, maybe if it, if it helps out with our default rate, if it helps our students be able to better manage their student loans so we don’t have this level of indebtedness upon graduation.

ZW (20:45): Is it selfish? Yes. Because the schools want their metrics to shine, they wanna maintain accreditation. I think down the road colleges will make the investment, but I think we’re just at the cusp right now of the, of the kind of mass accountability for graduate school programs. And one thing I wanted to add on is University of Chicago was a, is a very prominent example of this. Right now they are freezing admission into many graduate programs because of the cost and the indebtedness and the way that it’s really impacting some of those accountability measures. Now one solution is freezing the admission of those programs. The other solution might be though these pure financial mentoring groups and these professional financial counselors that could be embedded in graduate programs to do a little better job mitigating the impact of how expensive graduate school can be.

Emily (21:41): Yeah. As you were speaking, I started thinking, is it the responsibility of these universities to help <laugh> the students with their finances? I mean that’s something that goes to the core of what my business is, right? And what we do in our, you know, HEFWA community. But as you were just saying, the argument is there, it’s because the schools already have a vested interest in how these students’ finances turn out because of the federal loan programs. So a little bit less relevant for the PhDs, but I think it bleeds over into that area as well. Um, and I’m curious what you think about the changes that have now occurred with the one big beautiful bill act and the lifetime and annual limits on student loan, um, acquisition. At least that’ll be phased in over the next few years. Um, is that what you were speaking to in like this, you know, increased era of accountability?

The One Big Beautiful Bill Act & Graduate Student Loan Borrowing

ZW (22:27): Absolutely. There’s gonna be breaks that are pumped <laugh> on graduate student loan borrowing. There’s just going to be, and and that is why initially there’s kind of these two things happening at once. As the federal government looks at graduate programs and looks at the indebtedness of some graduates, how much they’re actually earning, how many times they’re defaulting on student loans or missing payments or requesting forbearance, whatever the case is, there’s this rise of the private student loan industry that is really going to come after graduate students. And it’s timely that you asked about this because I was talking with a financial institution that shall not be named two weeks ago and they were looking at the readability and comprehensiveness of their loan packages and offerings to graduate students because everyone is getting ready in the financial industry to swoop in and take over where the federal government has said basically, we’re gonna wipe our hands a little bit of this and kind of get out of this industry.

ZW (23:29): So one piece of advice I think that’s really, really, really critical for people pursuing graduate school is first and foremost you get that full ride and you really understand what that full ride pays for always the best deal, right? Don’t pay that stuff back, don’t take out loans that is the best, but if you’re really passionate, you wanna do it, you can’t get the full ride funding. You are going to have to learn to navigate a bit of the private loan sector and it’s gonna look very, very different than the federal student loan portfolio. And that’s one thing that, and ideally I know it’s gonna be on your radar and college and universities are gonna have to provide the education to prospective graduate students to say, your parents, your friends who might have gone to graduate school 10, 15 years ago, you’re playing different ballgame. Here are their financial options available to you. Here’s the best information we can give you right now as chaotic as some federal policy making may be right now, this is as it stands today and y’all make the best choice you can. And so I think there’s gonna be a whole nother layer of knowledge that prospective graduate students will need to understand the next couple years to make it affordable, get the best deal they can and not get taken advantage of by the private loan industry, which we know can be very predatory in nature.

Emily (24:57): Yeah, so many changes and so scary. But you know what? Student loans have been scary for people even through the federal system. And so that was, that was a broken system in need of reform as well. So we’re trying something new here and everybody’s just trying to shift and do the best that they can.

ZW (25:11): Yeah, I totally agree. And that’s actually a little bit of the, the silver lining if you can find one in the big beautiful bill is that the borrowing is going to be throttled and it’s going to inherently force people to make decisions that may not be best for their immediate educational aspirations, but are probably going to protect them financially a little bit more in the long run. Which is, it is great for, for graduate school folks because you know, so many graduate degrees are so specialized and a lot of times you, you really can’t land that dream job that is exactly what your specialty was, right? So you find yourself working in kind of disparate fields and leveraging the soft skills and other kind of competencies that you developed through graduate studies in any field, which makes people crazy employable as it is. But you’re always kind of repurposing yourself for different kinds of work in, in some ways that really does force for good or bad people to make very reasoned planned decisions on degrees and career field. People will think twice about taking out that big loan for a degree in a very niche field. And that is probably, probably good for people. It’s probably gonna be a positive for the indebtedness that folks graduated with and a better opportunity for broadly colleges and universities to do a better job of preparing students for careers and saying, you’re entering this field, you’ve made this decision, you are better aware of the career opportunities. And I think colleges and universities, especially graduate programs, will be better equipped to provide support, I think. I think it’s over. Could be, could be seen as a good thing.

Emily (27:11): Yeah, I’m just thinking that the other community that I’m part of is the graduate career consortium. So that is people who work in career and professional development for PhD students and master’s students. And I know that like there are professionals who work in that field and they also do peer mentoring as you mentioned earlier. There’s peer mentoring on resumes and interview prep and all that kind of stuff. So the model is there as well. And as you were saying, that’s becoming even more like it was already important. It’s even more important at every stage because sometimes the best financial intervention that a PhD can get is before they commit to any program, right? And making sure that the PhD is the right choice, the field is the right choice, the school is the right choice, the price point is the right choice. Um, and if not, you know, getting outta that or negotiating for a better offer or whatever needs to happen to, to put them on a more financially healthy path before the sunk costs, you know, come into play and all that sort of stuff.

ZW (28:02): Yes, absolutely.

Commercial

Emily (28:06): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, budgeting, investing, and goal-setting, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2025-2026 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutes enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Accessing Peer Mentoring and Other Financial Services at Your University

Emily (29:25): If graduate students and professional students today want to access peer mentoring in the financial realm, um, at their universities, how can they do so?

ZW (29:34): Arguably I would have incorporated this in my graduate school search when I was looking, this is one thing that if current me could advise past me, here’s what I would’ve changed. I did not necessarily look into many student support services as part of my degree program. I was really kind of looking at can I make it work cost of living wise? Can I get a scholarship? Can I easily transport myself to and from campus? I mean that was really making sure financially that I could do it. Finances are super important, but there’s all the other services that come as part of a degree program that students really should understand because in the quote unquote compensation package of a graduate school admission letter, you’re also all of a sudden getting access to all these support services you just talked about career, career counseling offices and, and career advice.

ZW (30:32): Every arguably reputable university out there, every graduate program has somebody in career services to help you navigate. They have, they have, they have that covered. What they don’t have as covered as well is this financial wellness piece. So what I would’ve done is I would’ve dug much more into student services and said, if I need- have a-, if I have a question about my taxes at your university in this program, who can I go to? Who can I go to if I have an issue affording something emergency aid, um, I need finances to travel for this conference. If I wanna make sure to have a, an unpaid internship opportunity as part of my degree program, who do I talk to for that? I did none of that. I did none of that. And that was a big mistake. <laugh>. So I would say to all your listeners, anyone pursuing graduate school is, you gotta think about that admissions letter as a compensation package.

ZW (31:30): And there are lots of other fringe benefits of that compensation and it’s all these kind of auxiliary career services and ask, you know, do I have access to a a preferred credit union that can give me a really good savings account rate or, or a free checking whatever the case is. Do I have access to a financial counselor so I can actually help plan my, my my, either my indebtedness or my my budget to make sure that I can make things work. Asking those questions about personal finance that may help you make your decision. And that if future me, you know, current me could go back and talk to past me, it would be asking all those programs, can you help me find somebody to help me with my money to help me with personal finance? That would have really swayed my decision I think. 

Emily (32:17): I think in the regular employment world they would call it like an employee assistance program. Employee assistance program. Yes. So just like all the sort of package of like support services that are available in that case to full-time employees. But yes, you’re exactly right in higher ed, a version of that exists for undergraduate, graduate professional students. Everybody. And I also did not consider this at all when I was selecting a graduate institution, but something I’ve been really, um, I guess impressed by my observation through the HEFWA community is the rise of basic needs support. And so I would maybe hold that up as like the top one, like you mentioned emergency assistance, um, loans or grants, that kind of thing. Like are there places where I can turn if I am having trouble and I can’t make rent this month or like I can go to a food bank and I’m able to get something that’s gonna, you know, tide me over till my next paycheck comes. Like I don’t love that people have to access that stuff, obviously it’s just better that people are paid reasonably well enough. But even if people are paid decently, there’s always gonna be those scenarios that come up, you know, from time to time for a graduate student, even in otherwise well-managed, you know, and sufficient financial life. So just having something there to help them bridge the gap is really, really helpful.

ZW (33:27): A hundred percent. And I was just talking to someone about this the other day with a basic need center in California where it was, if you don’t have Maslow’s hierarchy covered, the learning is so impossible. Not impossible, but it made so much more difficult. And I remember learning in eighth grade health class about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and every now and again, you know, my day-to-day work and when I was a graduate student for sure, it’s like why am I not focused right now? Oh I’m hungry, I’m hungry, right? I need a glass of water. Like the basic, basic needs type stuff, right? So I, I think you’re totally hitting the nail on the head where you gotta really think about yourself, but all of your needs, having all of your needs covered going into a graduate program where at least the best you can and you know, more and more so colleges and universities have really embraced this kind of basic needs movement in some ways where, I never remember as an undergraduate or even a grad student at UT getting an email hearing about a coat closet, career center, basic needs center, uh, helping college students apply for uh, SNAP benefits and, and and tax assistance for income taxes.

ZW (34:42): Never. Now, I wouldn’t say ubiquitous, but a lot more graduate programs are rolling that into services because they’re realizing that a basic needs covered, student finishes on time, they’re engaged, they network, they pursue those pre-professional career opportunities so they get a job after graduation. It is in these students’ best, therefore it should be in the institution’s best interest. And now we’re finally maybe putting student first, whereas it’s for the best interest of the student, then it’s the best interest of the institution and not the other way around. Where does it benefit the institution? Great, then the student gets the fringe benefit. We’re finally, I think maybe flipping that around. That’s a good thing.

Emily (35:27): Hmm. And yeah, I’m glad we sort of landed on basic needs and you know, you mentioned e- even like hunger. So I live in California as well and at the moment anyway, we have this universal breakfast and lunch program in, in public schools. So every single student does not matter what the resources of your family are financially or ability to fill out paperwork or whatever. Everybody has access to free, free breakfast and free lunch through their school. So that’s incredible. And I know that you mentioned earlier that you work with um, certain populations that are more vulnerable through your job now. And so let’s say that we have someone in the audience who’s a graduate student who came out of the foster system or was formerly homeless or, or maybe even currently is experiencing housing insecurity. Um, or maybe we have a student parent, another type of non-traditional student. Um, how can those people access, you know, these kinds of resources we’ve been talking about in particular their institutions?

ZW (36:20): Yeah, so there is typically a community liaison, social work type person at colleges and universities that their part of their portfolio of work is making sure that every single government benefit, every single community uh, amenity is connected to the university in some point. Going back to your comment about is it an institution’s role to provide this financial information? Like it’s going back to the idea of in loco parentis, how much should the institution be the parent for the student? Well there is a limit of that. The institution can only do so much, but at every institution there is someone or a team of people whose job is to be connected to public benefits, to community resources. But there is the hurdle with students of all ages, but it’s especially graduate students when you really maybe might feel that more of that uh, uh, imposter phenomenon creeping in is do I wanna raise my hand for help? Do I wanna be seen as someone who needs a government benefit or who needs a, some sort of commuter pass for low income people? Like do I wanna be associated with that group? I grew up saying I’ll take everything I can, I cannot provide it myself. I’m at my wit’s end, gimme all of it ’cause I am at wit’s end. However, a lot of people don’t feel that way. A lot of people are just on the fringes and feel like, you know what, buck up, you know, very bootstraps mentality. But it’s about raising your hand and being willing to say to yourself, I wanna be successful. I believe in myself. That might mean sucking up a little bit of pride and seeking out a benefit associated with X population and you just go for it and you find that person on campus. The other part that was really beneficial about my time at UT is that I only explicitly used public transit.

ZW (38:17): And public transit tends to run by the library, by the DMV, by banks, by by social services offices broadly. That’s where bus routes tend to run. It’s you know, connecting people to the governmental infrastructure in this country. Typically I would really encourage graduate students if you have committed to someplace and you know more or less the city that you’re gonna be in, get there as early as you can. Ride public transit and get to know where the social services are because you may think that your university, your institution is your community. You have access to resources so far beyond that community that you gotta know the city and know the location first almost. ’cause a lot of times the university may not have the infrastructure you need but right down the road or like county social services, they’ve got your back a hundred percent and of you know, unfortunately a lot of graduate students because they you know, come in being so low income, you qualify for all tons of stuff that you did not think you’d qualify for.

ZW (39:25): I was talking to a graduate student the other week did not know they did not have to be paying for their cell phone the past three years. There is a program for that for low income students just like you and graduate students are included. Just because you’re in graduate school does not mean you’re exempt from being able to access all these social services. So it’s a couple of hurdles of being willing to raise your hand and say you need help. Two, doing your own kind of navigation of knowing where services are and then three, having that mindset of just because I’m a super smart person who got into a grad program and I’m going to this prestigious school does not preclude me from these government benefits that I do qualify for.

Emily (40:07): Such a great point. And I, I learned actually, I think it was from someone else I met at HEFWA who was a podcast guest a couple of years ago, that most people in the United States who access the social safety net do so on a very temporary basis. It really is for most people acting as um, okay, your situation has changed and you need some help right now, but in the future you’re gonna be making a lot more money. This is very true for graduate students and contributing again, back to society and that social safety net. So like take it like take the help you need the help by definition you have qualified for these programs, take the help, it’s not gonna be forever and you need it right now and it’s really gonna benefit you right now. 

ZW (40:44): Hundred percent. It is, it’s such a myth in the US about welfare. There’s such, so many myths that go around. It’s like statistically so many people are on it, like you said, for such a transient period. It’s really just a bandaid to something better. And there is though, you know, being admitted to grad school, you know, you feel like you’re in a competitive environment, you can’t show weakness. You know, you can’t be seen as needing anything. I’m self-sufficient, I’m strong. It’s a total mindset change to say actually I do need this benefit. And then recognizing too that the rest of your life you’re not gonna need it. It’s just to get you through to something better and don’t all that kind of like cultural zeitgeist and that, you know, mythology of welfare and people living off of welfare for their entire lives just not true.

Emily (41:37): Yeah, and I remember actually a previous podcast guest as well, um, at Portland State, she learned from her peers to apply for SNAP benefits. Like they were like as a group, like teaching one another how to apply. And the thing is that like you might perceive that some other people, and maybe this is even true for some people, they might look at you twice for having access this kind of benefit. But a lot of your other peers are gonna be like, how can I get that too? Like, can you tell me? ’cause I don’t wanna pay for my own cell phone. Like, that would be great.

ZW (42:03): I love that. I, and the thing is though, here, here we come in full, full circle, that is a form of peer mentoring. Is it not? It is people working together. Sometimes you feel a little more empowered if a friend will do it with you. So if you’re gonna, if you feel the need to raise your hand for a benefit that you may feel a little bit ashamed of, taken advantage of, have a find a friend, make a friend, raise those hands together, it’ll de-stigmatize a lot of what you feel like you might be doing. And then you get the benefit and you feel like all of a sudden, wow, I’m a little better prepared to be successful and putting myself in the best position. It’s all about just invest in your, in yourself as financial wellness as part of your professional development. It’s just being open to this, wanting to improve yourself and, and taking the resources and seeking them out that, that you deserve to have.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (42:55): Well I think you landed that plane beautifully, Zach, so we will end the interview there. I’m just gonna move on to our very last question that I ask of all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something that relates to, you know, something we’ve talked about today or it could be something entirely different

ZW (43:13): To build on something we talked about today is when you’ve done your research about the affordability of the area and you really have honed in on where you’re going to go, think about that offer of admission as a package and you put it brilliantly. It’s kind of like this, this employer wellness package, right? I mean there’s other benefits that you get in addition to just the teaching and learning, right? You get access to student services, you’re, you’re put into a community where there are probably likely other county level, city level governmental resources that you can access. So when you’re admitted, you’re not only admitted to the institution, but you’re admitted to all these other services, you’re automatically qualified for so many other things. Do your homework, seek ’em out and don’t be ashamed to raise your hand and say, I need a little bit of help.

Emily (44:11): Love it. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Zach, and giving us this wonderful insight.

ZW (44:15): Thank you. All the best, Emily, you’re doing important stuff. Keep doing it.

Emily (44:18): Thank you so much

Outro

Emily (44:29): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by me and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Which Postdocs Get Health Insurance and Retirement Accounts?

June 29, 2025 by Emily 1 Comment

In this episode, I share what I’ve learned recently about the landscape of postdoc benefits in the US, specifically with respect to health insurance and workplace-based retirement accounts. This discussion of employees and non-employees or fellows may be familiar territory to some of you, but I also know I’m reaching people who have never heard it before. I hope that this episode helps more postdocs access more benefits, but I will not present a single universal solution that can be immediately adopted. Please take what you learn today back to your peers at your institution to converse about what they’re doing for their benefits and what may be possible for all of you.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • PF for PhDs S2E3: Using Data to Improve the Postdoc Experience (Including Salary and Benefits)
  • PF for PhDs S14E3: The Tax and Retirement Effects of Receiving Fellowship Funding
  • PF for PhDs S8E10: How This Grad Student’s Finances Changed During the Pandemic
  • Host a PF for PhDs Seminar at Your Institution
  • Emily’s E-mail Address
  • NIH Policies for NRSA Stipends, Compensation and Other Income: Notice number NOT-OD-23-111
  • Code of Federal Regulations: Part 66 National Research Service Awards
  • NIH Grants Policy Statement 11.2.9.2
  • NIH Grants Policy Statement 11.3.8.2
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
Which Postdocs Get Health Insurance and Retirement Accounts?

Teaser

Anonymous: “As a postdoc, I mean, yes, your benefits are important, but you’re so, uh, worried about all of the work that you have to get done scientifically. So I think doing all this extra administrative stuff falls by the wayside more often than not.”

Introduction

Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily: This is Season 21, Episode 3, and today is a mostly solo episode from me plus some short interview segments on what I’ve learned recently about the landscape of postdoc benefits in the US, specifically with respect to health insurance and workplace-based retirement accounts. This discussion of employees vs. non-employees or fellows or trainees may be familiar territory to some of you, but I also know I’m reaching people who have never heard it before with some bright spots. I hope that this episode helps more postdocs access more benefits, but I will not present a single universal solution that can be immediately adopted. Please take what you learn today back to your peers at your institution to converse about what they’re doing for their benefits and what may be possible for all of you together.

Emily: If you’ve been enjoying this podcast, would you please take a moment to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts? I just caught up on the reviews on Apple Podcasts after a few years, and they really put a smile on my face. Leaving a review also helps other PhDs and PhDs-to-be find this podcast. Thank you very much! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s21e3/. Without further ado, here’s my episode on postdoc benefits.

First Encounters with Postdoc Employee/Non-Employee Differential Benefits

Emily: I’ll start today’s episode with how I first personally encountered this postdoc employee/non-employee differential benefits weirdness. After my husband defended his PhD, he wanted to get a couple more papers published before applying for jobs or other postdocs, so he arranged to stay in his PhD advisor’s lab as a postdoc until he could finish those up. As his graduate appointment was ending, his advisor gave him three choices as to how he could be hired as a postdoc. All three paid the same gross income.

Emily: First, he could be hired as a fellow aka non-employee. That meant he would have to pay for his health insurance premium out of his income and he would not have access to the university 403(b). Second, he could be hired as an employee. That meant his health insurance premium would be paid on his behalf and he had access to the university 403(b). Third, he could be hired as a contractor. That meant he would have to pay for his health insurance premium out of his income and he would not have access to the university 403(b). The tax implications are also different across these three appointments with respect to the employee and employer sides of FICA aka Social Security and Medicare tax, each 7.65% of his income. As a fellow, neither he nor the university would pay FICA tax. As an employee, his employer would pay their half and he would pay his half. As a contractor, he would pay both halves.

Emily: We thought this was such a strange offer! Since the gross income was held steady across all three, it was clear that the employee position was superior due to the cost of the health insurance, and we definitely wanted the 403(b) benefit, even though there was no match. If he had been offered more money for the fellow or contractor positions as compared to the employee position, maybe we really would have had to weigh the choice, but not as it was presented. It was such a stark difference that we wondered if we were missing something—why wouldn’t he choose the employee position, why was this even under discussion?

Emily: Now, when I look back on this offer, what I find remarkable is not the lack of benefits for the non-employee positions or that the same amount of money was offered, it’s that my husband’s advisor gave him a choice at all. Up until recently, I perceived the postdoc position as falling into one of two broad categories. This was based on my examinations of the benefits offered to postdocs at universities that hired me to speak, if the subject matter included a discussion of retirement accounts. Postdocs could be employees with all the attendant benefits such as employer-provided health insurance, access to the workplace-based retirement account, perhaps an employer-provided retirement account contribution, formal vacation and leave policies, etc. These might be the same suite of benefits offered other staff or faculty members or a modified one. Or postdocs could be non-employees who did not have access to the workplace-based retirement account, had to pay for their health insurance premium out of their own pockets—which was not a tax-deductible expense—and probably did not have the protections that a regular employee would. The only monetary upside to being a fellow over an employee is that your income is not subject to FICA tax, meaning that you don’t have to pay 7.65% of your income in that particular payroll tax. However, the flip side is that you don’t get Social Security credit for those quarters either, so that’s really a double-edged sword.

Postdoc Benefits Examples From the Academic Community

Emily: Way back in Season 2 Episode 3, Dr. McDowell, who at that time was the executive director of Future of Research, shared his observation that

Gary M: “Benefits is just a whole minefield with postdocs, even within the same institution. There can be all sorts of different benefits categories for all sorts of different titles of postdocs.”

Emily: I also thought that your funding source completely determined your status—that postdocs who won individual fellowships or were on institutional training grants had to be classified as non-employees. This view was supported as I heard from postdocs who were shifted from one classification to the other within the same institution; for example, postdocs who started out as employees and then were switched to non-employees when they won a fellowship or were put on a training grant.

Emily: Dr. Jamie Lahvic gave us an example of this occurrence during our interview in Season 14 Episode 3:

Jamie L: “And then as a postdoc, I did have a retirement account offered. However, I started out by like not really contributing very much to it at all because I was living in this really high cost-of-living area with not a lot of income. And then I actually found out as I was going through the fellowship application process that I was going to be losing that retirement contribution once I got a fellowship coming in. So then I sort of, at the last minute just before my fellowship came in, I like maxed out all my contributions as best as I could for like the last few months and tried to top it off. But then the fellowship came in and those accounts kind of sat stagnant for the rest of my postdoc. So that was a frustrating thing to see.”

Emily: For this episode, I spoke with an employee of an organization that issues fellowships who prefers to remain anonymous. She confirmed that sometimes

Anonymous: “We do see that once they’re awarded the fellowship. There is this shift from university employee to like a trainee classification, which is seen on a training grant or if you are awarded an f, you know, you, you suddenly lose your employee status. And unfortunately with that. A lot of times things such as contributing to retirement is no longer on the table. Medical and dental can be compromised in some way, shape or form. And even being able to park on university campus. So we’ve really seen a wide array of employee benefits get stripped away.”

Emily: This happens to some awardees, though not all or even most in her observation. However, in recent years, I’ve realized that the postdoc benefits landscape is much more varied than my initial impression. Postdocs care a lot about receiving benefits, and in some cases they and their institutions have found ways to mitigate the issues caused by being classified as a non-employee or even changed the classification altogether. I do want to point out before we start that term employee is a bit tricky and used differently in different contexts, such as tax vs. labor. For myself, I’m tax-focused, so I go by IRS-related classifications. If you are a US citizen, permanent resident, or resident for tax purposes, and your income is reported on a Form W-2 and you have access to a workplace-based retirement account, perhaps after a waiting period, I would call you an employee. For nonresidents, your tax reporting might be on a Form W-2 or a Form 1042-S with income code 19 or 20. If your income as a US citizen or resident is reported in some other way and you don’t have access to the workplace-based retirement account, I would call you a non-employee, at least with respect to that income. For nonresidents, if your tax reporting is on a Form 1042-S with income code 16, I would call you a non-employee. Income tax withholding for US citizens and residents falls similarly: if you’re an employee, your income tax will be withheld on your behalf, and if you’re a non-employee, it might not be withheld on your behalf. If you’re a nonresident, it’s going to be withheld either way.

Emily: I need to define another term here: workplace-based retirement account. I’m using this as a catch-all term for 403(b)s, 457s, and state-sponsored retirement plans, whichever applies at a given institution. An IRA, individual retirement arrangement, is not tied to your workplace. The postdoc benefits situation is considerably different than the grad student benefits situation, even though either might be classified as employees or non-employees. Grad student benefits are more similar across the board, whereas for postdocs there can be a vast difference between being classified as an employee vs. non-employee. I’m painting with a broad brush, but it seems to me that grad students are always offered student health insurance. If they opt in, the health insurance premium is typically paid in full or in large part on their behalf, and it is not included in their taxable income, and that applies whether they are employees or non-employees. For postdoc employees, their employee health insurance premiums are paid at least in part by the employer, and the premiums are not included in their taxable income. For postdoc non-employees, the premium might be paid for from a separate stipend or they might pay for it out of their regular income, but either way the money that pays the premium is supposed to be included in their taxable income. I’ve even come across postdocs who are not offered a reasonably priced health insurance plan by their universities, so they go through the marketplace to purchase insurance.

Emily: Grad students are not typically given access to their university’s retirement account, whether they are employees or non-employees. In certain circumstances, grad student employees are granted access, like Eun Bin Go, whom I interviewed in Season 8 Episode 10, but it’s quite rare that any grad students actually contribute to the plan. I have never come across a full-time grad student who receives a retirement contribution match. Postdoc employees are typically given access to their university’s retirement account, sometimes after a waiting period, and they sometimes receive an automatic or a matching contribution from their employers. Postdoc non-employees are not given access to their university’s retirement account. When it comes to FICA tax, grad students virtually never pay FICA tax, regardless of their classification, whereas postdoc employees pay their half of the tax and postdoc non-employees don’t pay the tax. Grad students may have little awareness of whether they are considered employees or non-employees, because the benefits difference is negligible to non-existent. In fact, if anything, it’s preferable to be a non-employee on fellowship, because that typically translates into a larger stipend. Speaking for myself, I barely registered when my status changed back and forth during grad school because it didn’t impact my pay, benefits, or day-to-day work. However, postdocs absolutely notice these differences in benefits when they are hired or when they switch, and all too often, the pay is held constant between the two classifications.

Commercial

Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2025-2026 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, medical school, postdoc office, or postdoc association? My workshops are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Orientations, postdoc appreciation week, or close to the start of the academic year would be a perfect time for tax education or general personal finance content. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

How Can Postdocs Who Are Classified as Non-employees Gain Some Employee Benefits?

Emily: First, I’m going to address how postdocs gain benefits at institutions where they are by default classified as non-employees based on their funding source. Second, I’m going to point out that some institutions classify all postdocs as full employees regardless of their funding source. Part 1: How can postdocs who are classified as non-employees gain some employee benefits?

Emily: My curiosity into this question was piqued within the last year when I independently conversed in detail about benefits with two different postdocs at Emory. Both were funded by fellowship/training grant-type funding, so both were primarily classified as non-employees. However, they both accessed a workaround available at Emory, namely being given a very part-time employee appointment so that they could maintain their health insurance benefit and access to Emory’s 403(b). The second postdoc I spoke with, Dr. Celina Jones, asked me if I knew of postdocs on NIH fellowships and training grants who received a retirement contribution match from their institutions, and I offered to ask my mailing list about it. This is the text of the email I sent on January 16, 2025:

“Do you receive a retirement match and if so HOW?

I had a request for information come in from Dr. Celina Jones, who is a postdoc at Emory on an F32.

Celina started off as a postdoc employee at Emory with all the attendant benefits. When she switched onto her F32, she and her PI created a workaround so that she can still access employee health insurance and the 403(b)… but her efforts to retain her retirement match have been stymied.

Celina and I want to know: Do any other postdocs on NIH training grants receive a retirement match from their institutions? She would love to bring some examples back to Emory to advocate for this benefit.

It’s a no-brainer to me that postdocs should not LOSE benefits (read: money) when switching from employee to non-employee status—if anything, they should receive a pay increase or bonus—so I really want to know if solutions are out there!

Please email me back if you have a relevant example!

Emily”

Emily: The responses I received from postdocs underlined that the workaround these Emory postdocs used was not known to everyone. Several respondents confirmed that they had lost their benefits when switching from employee to non-employee status, with no workarounds offered. A couple of grad students replied with outrage and concern that this was an issue their peers were facing and that they might face in the future. Dr. Richard Remigio, a postdoc at NIH, replied “If matching is considerably important, I often hear awardees declining their award so they can remain on their university’s payroll and list the offered award in their CV.” What a sad situation when an award offers prestige but not only no material benefit but actually a material detriment.

Emily: But something else I’ve realized is that not all postdocs are left to workarounds vs. staying as complete non-employees.

Where Are All Postdocs Classified as Employees?

Emily: As I said earlier, I originally thought that the source of a postdoc’s funding determined their employee or non-employee classification, and that receiving funding from an NIH fellowship or institutional training grant meant that you had to be a non-employee. However, two years ago, the NIH made a splash with this innocuously phrased notice. Notice number NOT-OD-23-111 is titled “NIH Policies for NRSA Stipends, Compensation and Other Income” and reads:

“The purpose of this Notice is to remind the extramural community of the policies surrounding stipends, compensation and other income for trainees and fellows supported under Ruth L. Kirschstein National Research Service Award (NRSA) grants. 

In accordance with 42 CFR Part 66, NIH provides stipends to NRSA fellows and trainees as a subsistence allowance to help defray living expenses during the research training experience. NIH does not provide stipends as a condition of employment with either the Federal government or the sponsoring institution (See NIH Grants Policy Statement 11.2.9.2 and 11.3.8.2). 

While stipends are not provided as a condition of employment, this policy is not intended to discourage or otherwise prevent recipient institutions from hiring NRSA trainees and fellows as employees or providing them with benefits consistent with what the institution provides others at similar career stages.”

Basically, the NIH was saying, “Hey universities, we never said that you couldn’t hire NRSA fellows and trainees as employees—you totally can if you want to.” Even the end of the notice seems like a nudge to universities to provide benefits to NRSA recipients that are commensurate with those provided to other postdocs. After seeing that notice, I wondered whether any institutions had already been hiring NRSA postdocs as employees or started after the reminder. So at this year’s National Postdoctoral Association Annual Conference and Graduate Career Consortium Annual Meeting, I asked people I met who work in postdoc offices about postdoc benefits and whether all of their postdocs were hired as employees. I actually did meet a few people who confirmed that all of the postdocs at their institutions were hired as employees. For one example, MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, TX. At the Graduate Career Consortium Annual Meeting, Briana Mohan, the Program Manager of Recruitment & Special Programs in the Office for Postdocs, spoke with me at length about all the postdocs being employees. Dr. Ryan Udan, the Program Director for Academic Operations in the Office for Postdocs described all their benefits. The following audio clip will also appear in a forthcoming podcast episode about on-campus resources.

Ryan U: “In terms of resources that my postdocs can access that would improve their finances, I would simply say it is the benefits at our institution. Our employees and trainees have equal access to these benefits. These benefits include things like free mental health counseling through our MDLive, also counseling through our employee assistance fund. We also have an employee assistance fund that our postdocs can apply to receive extra funds for any kind of specific situations. Other benefits are health related benefits, we have a very amazing fitness facility that they can join for free. They can also join programs through our UT Blue Cross insurance. So they can have a hinge health for free for people that have joint issues. There’s several weight loss programs. We also have child care coverage, that’s through a program called Bright Horizons. It’s actually a backup dependent care system, it’s not supposed to be used on a regular basis but you get at least 100 hours per year for backup dependent care. And I know that there’s a couple extra resources but I can’t think of them right now.”

Emily: Amazing! It’s great to hear that some institutions are looking out for all of their postdocs and trying to give them a really positive workplace experience.

Conclusion

Emily: So now I’ve learned, and perhaps you have as well, that being awarded an NIH NRSA or similar fellowship or grant as a postdoc does not mean that your position will lack the benefits that your postdoc employee peers have. At some institutions, the funding source makes no difference as all postdocs are employees. At others, you can be hired as a part-time employee to get some of the benefits. However, there are apparently still a lot of postdocs who are dealing with being classified as a non-employee and not receiving benefits. If you’re in this situation currently or you’re anticipating taking a postdoc position in the future, what can you do to give yourself a better chance of getting the same or almost the same benefits as the postdoc employees?

Emily: First, if you’re searching or interviewing for postdoc positions, consider targeting institutions where all postdocs are hired as employees or where there is an established workaround. Second, again during the interviewing process or after being hired, try to find the right administrator at the institution who can help you with your classification or a workaround.

Emily: Our anonymous contributor shared that she helps her fellows do this:

Anonymous: “ I think if you can identify the right people to talk to, which is easier said than done, I believe that people want to help the postdocs, I don’t think that they’re out to make their lives harder. It’s just following protocol.”

Emily: However, she observed that this is a bit easier for an outside funder acting as a liaison to do because they have more experience and ongoing relationships, plus

Anonymous: “As a postdoc, yes, your benefits are important, but you’re so worried about all of the work that you have to get done scientifically. So I think doing all this extra administrative stuff falls by the wayside more often than not.”

Emily: Third, if you’re already in a postdoc position as a non-employee, talk with your peers about their funding sources and benefits, such as through the postdoc association or union. You may find that a workaround can be put in place for you and your peers in a similar situation. This becomes more and more likely the more people speak up about this issue and point to solutions at other institutions. Jamie Lahvic from Season 14 Episode 3 also spoke to this approach during our interview:

Jamie L: “Great groups to kind of connect to for that are unions. Within the UC system, we have a strong postdoc union. And I think they had done a lot of pushing, both on how much you get paid, but also a lot of these minute policies about how you get paid. Even outside of a formal union, I’ve seen a lot of success from graduate students and postdocs just banding together and working together on these things. Whether that is kind of peer-to-peer advice and providing resources, or working together as a group to request something from your department, from your university.”

Emily: Fourth, if you can’t be hired as an employee and no workaround is available, you can attempt to negotiate for more money. Calculate the amount of money that you are losing compared to your employee peers with respect to your health insurance premium and its tax payment and the retirement account match. Ask for that much or more to be added to your salary. Honestly, if you’ve won an individual award and are bringing outside money to your institution, you should be paid even more than employees after normalizing for all benefits, and this does happen sometimes, although it may not be typical. Gary McDowell from S2 E3 observed that:

Gary M: “A lot postdocs are negotiating salaries a lot more than I think people know. I think there’s disparity in who’s asking who’s not asking.”

Emily: If all postdocs at your institution are on a set pay schedule and individual negotiations are not permitted, that’s all the more reason to get together with your peers to argue that all postdoc non-employees should receive a pay increase and/or additional benefits. Please let me know your reaction to this episode! Tell me about your workarounds or which institutions hire all postdocs as employees. You can reach me at [email protected].

Outro

Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by me and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This Grad Student Strives to Change Financial Policies at His University

October 9, 2023 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Jason Anderson, a 5th-year PhD student in aeronautics and astronautics at Stanford University. Thanks to his work experience prior to grad school, Jason developed an unusual ability to read legalese and view every “no” as a starting point for negotiation. Both as a part of the Graduate Student Council and independently, he has advocated for changes to the benefits Stanford offers to its graduate students, particularly with respect to retirement accounts, health care options, transit, and income tax on fellowships. Emily and Jason have a lively conversation regarding the history and current status of these benefits at Stanford and at other universities, culminating in Jason’s advice to other grad student advocates and personal financial advice for all graduate students.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • How to Not Hate Your Fellowship During Tax Season
  • Emily’s E-mail Address
  • Host a PF for PhDs Tax Seminar at Your Institution
  • Student Exception to FICA Tax, Treasury Decision 9167 (Example 8 on page 24)
  • Host a PF for PhDs Seminar at Your Institution
  • PF for PhDs S14E2: How This Grad Student Fellow Resolved an Expensive Tax Bill in His Favor
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
  • Jason’s Website
  • Jason’s LinkedIn
This Grad Student Strives to Change Financial Policies at His University

Teaser

00:00 Jason A: So they made some changes this year that I, hopefully will alleviate the problem. But, you know, this problem could have been alleviated years ago if they were listening to the students.

Introduction

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.

00:47 Emily: This is Season 16, Episode 3, and today my guest is Jason Anderson, a 5th-year PhD student in aeronautics and astronautics at Stanford University. Thanks to his work experience prior to grad school, Jason developed an unusual ability to read legalese and view every “no” as a starting point for negotiation. Both as a part of the Graduate Student Council and independently, he has advocated for changes to the benefits Stanford offers to its graduate students, particularly with respect to retirement accounts, health care options, transit, and income tax on fellowships. Jason and I have a lively conversation regarding the history and current status of these benefits at Stanford and at other universities, culminating in Jason’s advice to other grad student advocates and personal financial advice for all graduate students. You’ll hear in the second half of this interview that Jason and I dive into some of the issues regarding fellowship income and taxes, which as you know is one of my favorite subjects. By happenstance, we recorded this interview in late September 2023, and in early October, about a week before this episode publishes, I’m scheduled to give my new webinar, How to Not Hate Your Fellowship During Tax Season, for Stanford. I’m crossing my fingers that it really helps alleviate the stress of the grad students and postdocs and is received well, like it has been the other times I’ve given it.

02:18 Emily: If you’d like to bring that webinar in particular to your institution this fall or any of my pre-recorded tax workshops now or during tax season, just reach out! I would be happy to chat with you and give you more information that you can take to your graduate school or postdoc office to ask for this kind of support. You can reach me at [email protected] or read more about these offerings at PFforPhDs.com/tax-workshops/. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e3/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Jason Anderson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:06 Emily: I’m so excited to have joining me on the podcast today, Jason Anderson. He is a fifth year Ph.D. student in Aeronautics and Astronautics at Stanford University. And Jason was actually connected to me by some of my contacts at Stanford who are hosting me for a webinar at the time of this recording. It’s coming up in a couple of weeks, and they told me that Jason is the person to talk to about some of the financial policy questions and concerns that the students may have. So that’s kind of going to be our topic for the podcast today. The advocacy work and the areas that Jason sees room for improvement in in terms of financial policies at Stanford and possibly at your institution as well. So, Jason, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the podcast. It’s a pleasure to talk with you here. And will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

03:49 Jason A: Sure thing. Thanks, Emily. It’s a pleasure to be here. And I’m really glad that I’m going to be able to share this knowledge. I’m really excited to help graduate students get get every everything they deserve. So as you said, I’m a fifth year aeronautics and astronautics student. My research pertains to augmenting GPS signals with cryptography in a way that is efficient and manageable. You know, GPS signals are have been around for a while, and cryptography requires a lot of data. So that’s what my research is about. And my hobbies would definitely be emailing administrators to get them to do things that the grad students need, you know, blow off steam. You know, that does come from some of my background working for and the legal field for a while writing those nice, crisp emails.

Connection Between Legal Experience and Advocacy

04:47 Emily: Let’s talk more about that experience that you had prior to starting graduate school. Yeah. So you were working in the legal field to some degree. Tell us about that experience.

04:59 Jason A: Yeah. So before Stanford, I went to UC Berkeley, go bears, and I needed to make a lot of money for my out of state education to be able to afford that. So, you know, I was a freshman engineer and applying to all these jobs to try and get myself an internship. So I, you know, I’d have have to have that income. You know, one of the checkboxes on one of those large websites was legal intern. And so the only job that returned to 19 year old Jason was that legal job. So it turned out to be a really interesting experience for me. I worked I worked there for between three or four years, actually, as a as a telecommute or working, you know, lots and lots and lots of hours and, you know, hours functioned as an executive assistant, which, you know, scheduling meetings, phone calls. But also my mentor allowed me to learn a lot about legal things. So I spent a lot of time reading agreements and reading laws, trying to trying to, I don’t know. So there’s this, you know, not to be cliche, but there’s this Sun Tzu person who wrote The Art of War. And, you know, his his main mantra was the art, the supreme art of war is to wage war without fighting. And so that’s like a big that was a big context for me. And the law of trying to use and take pieces together, strategy of trying to fix issues, using that. And then so that sort of prepared to me for a lot of the advocacy work today. And then after that experience, I worked at a different defense contractor and then came to Stanford. And so I have served as the in the student government here. I had no interest in student government in my undergrad. And it was not until I needed things that I became interested, like with regards to health care, retirement transit, a bunch of other benefits that I wanted I didn’t have. So I came to that quest to get them. And then, you know, so Stanford just voted to unionize and I am involved with that. So our union, as you know, is is undertaking a lot of these issues to help graduate students afford living. So here at Stanford, there are a lot of issues with affordability because, you know, Stanford is a very, very high cost area to live. So, you know, we have a lot of people going to the food pantry are especially partners with children, you name it. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done to make sure that that Stanford is affordable. So and that’s that’s part of what I’ve been working on in my as my hobby project, I suppose pretty serious hobby. But, you know, I still work full time as a graduate student.

08:07 Emily: Well, thank you so much for telling us about that experience. And we’ll get into talking about these specific benefits in a moment. But I just wondered if you could really explicitly make this connection between having this experience, being able to read legal documents and grappling with that kind of language and how you’ve been able to employ that past experience and that skill in asking for finding, advocating for the things that you and your peers need.

08:34 Jason A: Well, so I say that the first sort of thing that comes to mind is like the grit to even though when somebody says no to you, it’s not actually a no. So like, for instance, one of the items we’re going to talk about is retirement and when we get to there, we’ll talk about someone gave you a legal opinion that turned out to be false. And so, you know, when someone says says no to me, it’s it’s just not no. There’s still ways there’s still a way that you can you can talk. There’s a way to position yourself to respond back in such a way. Because, you know, Stanford or pretty much any school administrator is counting on you going away like. Right. So students are there in and out. And if you can just persist just a little bit, you know, you’ll be 100 times more successful. Ah, let’s see there are a lot of student government things that come to mind, like, you know, I got food trucks to come on to campus. That was a that was quite the ordeal. You know, for someone said, well, we can’t do this because these four different department departments need to approve, you know, like the infrastructure and then, you know, like, you know, parking, transit and then fire and then police and then, you know, these other things. And anyway, so the persistence that comes from being able to respond back, you know, when somebody says no, but also to read the documents because someone says no to me and I’m like, well, can you point to me the written rule of why somebody say, no, no, they they might not be able to point to a written rule. What they want you to do is they’re just so used to saying, Oh, I can just say no to this person and they won’t question. And then, you know, there are a couple of times where somebody says no to me. I ask them where in the rules it says that. And then they’re like, Oh, well, we reconsidered. So yeah. So being able to essentially mean where can I appeal. Right. If you know I do appeal, well then yeah. So

10:41 Emily: Yeah, it’s kind of appealing or negotiating and also like asking for your source. Like if you’re telling me there is a rule, okay, I’d like to take a look at it myself. Would you send me the link? Would you send me the document? I found the same thing that people have an impression of what rules are, and that’s actually not literally how it’s written or they’ve misinterpreted maybe what was written. And there’s another way to interpret it. Yeah.

11:05 Jason A: Everything’s sort of like a game of chicken when you’re trying to spar with someone. So their game with chicken is all the same. I just said no, they’ll go away. My game of chicken is I need the rule and they’re going to have to do the work to find the rule. And then they’re going to they’re going to realize, I don’t want to do that anymore. And it’s easier just to let me get what I want. So anyway.

11:26 Emily: I like what you said, though, about, like, oftentimes administrators. I mean, I don’t like to ascribe ill will to people. That’s not very, very, very obvious that that’s what’s going on. But a lot of times people are just overloaded and it’s easier to say no or just dismiss you or whatever, because it would create more work for them. But if it’s really important to you and important to your peers, then you should both try to come to a solution together. That’s mutually appealing.

11:53 Jason A: It helps I don’t take things personally on these types of issues. You know, I am I’m not someone who takes things personally, so it’s cold water on a duck’s back to me. But I can still write that emails to respond back. But yeah,

Retirement Negotiations

12:06 Emily: All right. Well, let’s get into these enticing areas of negotiation and pushback that we talked about before. So I want to hear about your kind of personal experiences working with or against or whatever the Stanford administration in these these four areas. Okay. We’re going to talk about retirement, going to talk about health care, transit and then income tax withholding, estimated tax. So let’s start up at the top with retirement. Can you give me a summary of what’s going on right now and what you have tried to ask for, what you’ve tried to advocate for?

12:39 Jason A: Well, so I have the privilege of having some extra income. You know, not everybody at Stanford has that. But one of my goals is to save 15% of my income. If you start early, this is what Fidelity says it’s only 15%. But a Roth IRA isn’t sufficient for that. And, you know, I think retirement is more like a public health issue. So in that you should have it deducted and not think about it, because if it’s not there, then people aren’t going to do it. So that’s why I think the employer deduction is really important.

13:12 Emily: That’s why people are moving to opt in system or rather opt out systems rather than opt in systems that are normal type of workplace.

13:19 Jason A: Yes. And then also my first year, I needed to borrow for my retirement from my company because I was in a cashflow pinch for about three months. And I was able to do that because I was still employed. I was simultaneously employed. If I didn’t if I weren’t simultaneously employed and I would have you know, you have all these graduate students who are super cash for. But you know something? A lot of them work between undergrad and graduate. So, you know, if Stanford provided this retirement benefit, then, you know, a lot of things happen. You know, you can do that public health savings, you can borrow from it. And, you know, and the benefit is very cheap. So, for instance, another company I work for, I know that the price per person participant is about $4 per month. And that’s actually a very expensive plan. So what my my knowledge is, is that I know this is very cheap and it’s extremely beneficial. I mean, it’s essentially helping grad students avoid taxes from the federal government. Right. Or avoiding shark loans.

14:21 Emily: Absolutely. And furthermore, I mean, Stanford and every university already operates a 403(b) plan at a minimum. And that’s the plan we’re talking about here for the listener. We’re talking about expanding access to the 403(b) plan that the university already has for its employees and faculty and everybody to the graduate students who are also employees. Correct?

14:42 Jason A: Yeah. Yeah, that’s exactly right. 401- 403(b) for for my institution because I guess we’re we’re exempt from income tax. But yeah.

14:53 Emily: Yeah. And so you’re saying, yeah, just what you said. Like if a student came in, let’s say they had a 401K or a 403B at a prior employer and they were able to roll it into Stanford’s 403B plan and they’re currently an employee at Stanford then like you did, they would be able to take a loan or while withdrawal could happen either way, but a loan against the four oh three B and then be able to pay it back gradually over time to alleviate the cash flow crisis. As you said, that is so common, especially the start of graduate school, very, very expensive transition. Generally speaking, they’re not helping you at all or very much so. Absolutely. That makes sense. And as you said, to continue the, I think it’s partially like a mindset thing, like because four oh three B’s are not typically offered to graduate students. It’s like not it’s not on their mind. It’s like an out of sight, out of mind thing about saving for retirement. And as you said, if possible, saving something like, you know, a few percentage is fine, but up to 15% would be an amazing goal to be able to accomplish during graduate school. And without the employer support on that, it’s easy to put it on the back burner. It takes a lot more initiative to open up an IRA, you know, separately from what’s going on at work.

15:59 Jason A: Yeah. The only reason why I was on my mind is because while I’m out of Berkeley does this. All right? Right. And so, you know, there are institutions out there that do do this. So

16:09 Emily: Okay. And so what communications did you have with the administration regarding the 403B?

16:14 Jason A: So, you know, student government is its own own thing. And, you know, so on the docket list of priorities, retirement is at the bottom one. Okay, because there’s far more important issues. Okay. But it also costs the employer nothing. Postdocs already have this. Okay. So this is like at the bottom of the list. You know, we’re hoping that they’ll give us the crumbs or whatever. Right. So when I pursued this avenue of advocacy several years ago and the response was, well, so if we give you this plan, then you’ll lose your FICA tax exemption. So just for your readers, graduate students and students in general do not have to pay FICA taxes and which is seven and a half percent off if your paycheck for Social Security and Medicare. So it’s like, Oh, wow, Well, we wouldn’t want to give up seven and a half percent of our paycheck. So I can I can have the option of putting 1% away. Right. Well, so you know that that’s where the legal experience comes in. I’m like, well, they said no for a very good reason to me. And so I go through and read the IRS law and I look up, I see I pull up the document just in case, you know, document number 9167, And on page 24, the IRS provides a comically helpful example that explicitly explains that graduate students can participate in the form of 403B plan and not be FICA exempt. And this is like so you know that tenacity I’m talking about. Well, I read that document from page one through page 30, right? It takes a lot of gumption, I think is to read through really boring topics like this. And it turned out to be helpful. So then as a student government, I got some pro-bono advice from a retirement lawyer. After I wrote my own opinion, I had the lawyer look over it and then I sent back this demand letter that says What you said is not true. And no, and we should be able to get this. And then so then after that, they’re like, Oh, well, nobody would use it. And, you know, the survey data that I have by most, my constituents shows that that’s not the case. People would in fact use it. But, you know, you know, I’m hoping that different organization, hopefully our union will be able to win that. But, you know, there’s a lot of other priorities, too.

18:30 Emily: Okay. So that’s the current status of you think you’re in you’re in the right here, at least their excuse number one was not a valid excuse. I haven’t looked at this myself. It’s very interesting to me. I’ll have to check this out after the end of the podcast interview. And that’s where it stands right now. You’ve knocked down their argument, but no further progress.

18:49 Jason A: Yeah. I mean, I think food insecurity and affordable housing and health care are much more important issues. But, you know, two years ago when I was working on this, I was, you know, you know, Thursday evening, I’m like, we’re doing my research and I’m like, oh, thank you, IRS they like, I’ll give you an example. Like, student J, is this No, they are exempt from FICA, which is I think it was kind of comical, but yeah, they didn’t do their homework or they were they’re lying to me to give me a go away. I mean, who knows? You know, I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but at the same time I think it’s clear and Berkeley and other universities are able to do it.

19:31 Emily: Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I agree in terms of, like, basic needs, you know, paying people enough that they don’t have to access food pantries and be housing insecure and all these things very important. But there’s also like the optics on, hey, like let’s treat grad students like they’re real employees and give them real benefits that other people have in other places. It’s quite standard. So there’s that aspect of it as well. But thank you for filling us in about that, because I am quite sure that many, many grad students around the country would also like to use their universities for 403Bs and you know, maybe they can get a little budge on this like you have so far not been able to, but good efforts to move on to the second topic of health, health care, health insurance.

Health Insurance Negotiations

20:13 Jason A: Yeah. So Stanford you know your readers can Google Stanford Bill on affordability and I, I wrote with my colleagues in the graduate Student Council 10 page actually explaining why Stanford is not very affordable. But one of those things is health care. We have the most expensive health care plan that I can find. And then one of the things that is expensive about it is that Stanford students, rain or shine, I have to pay $1,000 per year for their primary health care. I do think that other universities have similar fees, but they’re covered by their tuition. So I do have family who are health care administrators, and I’ve  participated in health care advisory boards. So it’s typical for an employee, an employer, a large organization to have advisors on benefits. Stanford faculty have this, Berkeley students have this. We’re still working on Stanford students, but essentially the students come together and they advise on what benefits should they should they have like, oh, graduate students need wisdom teeth surgery because we’re young or prescription eyeglasses would be nice at Stanford they’re not covered, you know, things like that. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be cost positive or neutral. The point is, is that people should have a say because they pay into the plan. And the administrators, I think, don’t have the best knowledge. The students have the best knowledge. So that’s something I’ve been fighting for for more than two years. I mean, retirement is probably the interesting thing about the taxes and whatever. But, you know, you know, you know, we’re that’s the thing I’ve been working on for a long time. So, like, for instance, Stanford recently changed and they passed just a smidge on allowing student advice on that topic. But they retracted actually. So we’re we’re still fighting for back. But essentially, you know, the advice that I was able to talk about is, you know, students want an app to use their health care because last year, in order to get claims processed, you had to mail in the claims and pulling your hair out like, I don’t know, maybe your readers have an app for their health care, right? So I had to help. I had an app for my parents when I was on my parents insurance. And then and then. Furthermore, the plan is a very high level plan which sort of prices out. Most everybody, only people on the plan have it subsidized. So, you know, the professional students are really hurting right now because they might be over the age of 26 and their only health care options are Obamacare or Medi-Cal or this plan that Stanford offers. So I’m really, that’s something that we’ve been asking for. And, you know, I think we’re going to get it with the with the union. But, you know, I wish that Stanford was as good as Berkeley, so I’m wearing my Stanford shirt. But, you know, Berkeley has been doing this for years. I wish Stanford would catch up on this on this regard.

23:11 Emily: Well, it’s good to have a nearby, you know, peer type institution to compare to and say what are the best practices that we can take from over there and share back and forth? I think in our prior conversation, you mentioned to me that the annual premium, if I remember correctly, for like a like a single person enrolled on the health insurance plan was like $7,000, is that right?

23:33 Jason A: Yeah. So the aggregate expenses are a 68 plus 1000. So I think about 77 to 7800. And if you have a student partner with a child, the premiums are 12 grand a year. At least 12 grand last year might be 13 this year. So and so to me. So, you know, there’s been issues with the plan because it’s in low participants and they’re apparently in a spiral out of control. And, you know, you wonder why it’s so, so, so expensive that nobody can afford to use it. So, yeah, to me, that price is like, please go away. That’s what the premium says, Please go away. So and then especially to our Stanford International students who bring partners and children and they have visa restrictions preventing them from getting other jobs, you know, those are the people who are at the food pantry every month because they are doing their best in such an unconscionable circumstances.

24:40 Emily: I can confirm when you said that number to me in our previous call that really raised a red flag for me, that that was very high compared to what I hear at other institutions. I want to say. I mean, I was in grad school some number of years ago, but I want to say it was like 2 to $3000 for the year for the premium for one person. So, yeah, a very different price level between those two. So that’s interesting that you. Okay, so you’re saying there it’s an under enrolled plan because the price is so high, which causes the price to go higher. So it’s like in sort of a death spiral. But the competition, let’s say, okay, if you’re a student, you can enroll in this plan. If you’re still under age 26, maybe you can enroll in your parent’s plan or maybe have a spouse. You know, there’s other places people can go, but then that last resort is like the ACA exchange rate versus the Stanford plan.

25:26 Jason A: Yeah, what’s sad about that is you lose a bunch of tax subsidies, right, because that’s why your employer pays for your health care. You know, and there are some tax subsidies. You know, I haven’t done my research into it, but I mean, it’s a very it’s it’s really structured that your employer should pay for this. And also the plan here is for the facilities nearby. If you go ACA, you know, who knows where you where you’re going to be and especially those international students who are coming into this health care system and don’t know what is going on. But yeah, yeah. And part of the reason why the plan is so expensive is because all all Stanford, pretty much all the health care, you have to go to the hospital. And Stanford also is a nice hospital, but it’s impacted. So like I tried to get an appointment nine month waiting time for myself, you know, So they made some changes this year that I hopefully will alleviate the problem. But, you know, this problem could have been alleviated years ago if if they’re listening to the students. So yeah. And also say a lot of this is my opinion. So take that with every grain of salt.

26:37 Emily: Absolutely. Okay. So the idea here is to get a committee, a student group that advises on the health care plan. And right now you’re voicing a main concern is it’s very expensive and it’s driving people away.

26:51 Jason A: Yeah. And I’m not the only voice. I mean, people talk about the mental health issues. There’s the minority disparities in health care that, you know, my family members talk about that I think are insane. You know, this is the type of feedback that needs to come in. And I think the best way to resolve it is to have everybody speak their own voice. And I just I’m just one voice. That’s why it needs to be a committee

27:13 Emily: Okay. Well, thank you so much for bringing that up.

Commercial

27:15 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2023-2024 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Transit Negotiations

28:35 Emily: Third on our list is transit. Tell us what you’ve been doing on that front.

28:40 Jason A: Stanford took away free transit benefits and May June and people are very angry about that. So I’m

28:49 Emily: Are we talking about on Stanford’s campus like busses? Are we talking about trains or what level of transit?

28:55 Jason A: Trains, yeah so rent is very, very expensive in Palo Alto. I don’t know if you’ve heard of so there’s a train that was very convenient that Stanford used to use, used to purchase the monthly pass for, and so I’d like to see that returned. Furthermore, I like on the subject of retirement benefits, costing them nothing. Every employee at Stanford has access to purchase those tickets pretax, which is an effective 30% discount to Stanford students. Right. So and yet another payroll benefit that costs them almost nothing that they can extend so that their employees get thousands of dollars every day. So I would say that that is the transit element that I would like to see happen.

29:40 Emily: Plus the environmental benefits of incentivizing, using public transit over other forms of transportation.

29:47 Jason A: Absolutely. As part of, you know, the Stanford just inaugurated a new school called the Doerr School of Sustainability. So yes, I totally agree with those arguments, although I am a little bit focused on the taxes because I’m a little bit biased on. Yeah.

Income Tax Withholding Negotiations

30:03 Emily: Great. All right. Fourth topic and one of my favorites, the lack of income tax withholding on paychecks for non employees who are U.S. citizens and residents of for tax purposes. And for that group, the possible requirement to pay estimated tax. So this is the issue that you and I first got connected over. So, yeah, I’d love to hear what you’ve been talking about on that front with the administration.

30:29 Jason A: You know, Stanford is an educational institution and I think it is on them to educate their students on their taxes. So one of the things I’ve been working with, graduation council, are these tax office hours. Well, where the government, the student government will purchase the CPAs time and will, you know, explain how to, how to do this. Students really don’t know. You know, I was fortunate enough to grow up in a high school district that literally made every single 18 year olds in your file taxes by hand and like a dummy scenario. So like I you know, you can go to the post office and get your tax forms. I didn’t know that. Right. So I came in knowing every single dollar that I earned, I have to pay tax. A lot of people don’t know that. So at the office hours, you have a wide breadth, you have your international student who’s dealing with tax treaties and all sorts of stuff, and then your domestic student who is this is their first time in their entire life that they’ve earned income and it’s a fellowship and they don’t get their W-2. It’s not you know, TurboTax can’t handle it. And, you know, TurboTax and professionals will get the advice wrong on certain aspects. So one of the things that I was fortunate enough to get Stanford to do is to take a stance on health care fees, the taxability of health care subsidies on fees. So a lot of students at Stanford, which is really why I’m excited to talk to you today, are are falsely paying taxes on their health insurance stipend. So they they get charged at Stanford $7800 a year and some people that’s partially subsidized and then it’s reported funk funky on the 1088 and 1098 is not an income tax. It’s just a it’s just a education benefits, deductions and credits right and graduations aren’t taking those deductions and credits. It’s really the wrong form for them. So you know stand for housing affordability issue. But, you know, I’m so glad that Stanford talked to you. I mean, the reason why they’re hiring you for this is I’m hoping, you know, so we can save graduates from $3,000 of taxes a year. Right. We have an affordability crisis where people are going to the food pantry every month with their wagons and children. This is $3,000 that they don’t have to be paying. Right. And so, you know, when I was student government and I had this from government to government is paying a CPA like $500 for their time. Right. And then you’ve got 100 people coming in and they’re overfull and each one of them is is saving thousands of dollars. Right. This is like the, you know, retirement, transit. But this tax stuff is probably the easiest way that Stanford can take initiative and stop all of this. You know, years ago when I was starting my advocacy on this, a Stanford person told me that that the interest and penalties that students pay every every April as part of their tuition rate, as part of their tuition, they don’t know. They come in. They they don’t know they need to make estimated payments. And then they get you know, they get those fees. That’s their tuition. It just made me so angry that they that they could send an email to everybody today. But this is an example of tenacity where Stanford’s like, it’s not my problem. I don’t want to be liable. What not. Right. But that’s not true. Okay. They they can say this is what a typical student does. You know, my high school in Marietta, Georgia, explained to us how to file taxes in a theoretical scenario. Stanford can do it, too. So, you know, I’m really glad that you’re coming on, you know, a couple of weeks to talk about that. So that’s the end of my long rant. But I could go on.

34:16 Emily: Absolutely. I mean, you hit on several different issues in there, which I think are incredibly important. So let’s start with that. Okay. $7800 in what I in my framework, it’s called awarded income. So it’s fellowship scholarship type income, not reported on W-2. That’s what I call awarded income. And as you were saying earlier, awarded income. Like you have to assume it’s taxable right from the outset. You have to assume that as part of your taxable income, unless you can prove that it went towards paying a qualified education expense and then it gets to be tax free. So the argument here is that whether or not health insurance premium paid, you know, for university health insurance for a student is considered a qualified education expense. And in my opinion, the opinion of the CPA hired to, you know, work with me on this. It is under limited circumstances where it’s required of the student and the student is purchasing it through the university. And that means that that premium or that means that the amount of money that goes towards paying the premium gets to be tax free because you all have such a high number on that. That 7800 really makes a big difference to you all, especially it’s going to be a lesser effect at other other institutions, but still in effect. And so it is an important thing to know that if you receive a 1098-T, that amount of that premium is not going to appear in box one as a as an education expense because it’s not a qualified education expense for the other benefits. As you were saying earlier, the Form 1098T is not designed for the tax free scholarships and fellowships benefits. It’s designed for the lifetime learning credit. It’s designed for the American Opportunity Tax Credit. But that’s not the one grad students are taking. They’re taking tax free scholarships and fellowships. So anyway, the 1098T is like, okay, as far as it goes, but you have to have this inside knowledge that it’s not a complete document. It doesn’t actually list all your qualified education expenses. And that’s a real disconnect. People think they receive a form and it’s kind of trustworthy and it’s really not. You have to double check everything on it to make sure that it’s complete and accurate for your situation. Oh, I’m going on my rant now too.

36:11 Jason A: Yeah, well this is why it’s really important to read those really dull IRS instructions after having three and a half years of legal experience. And you view me the legal brains like, well, health care is disallowed in sections two and three for undergrads, but it’s not disallowed in section one for graduate students. And then you’ve got a CPA. So like I’m in office hours, I’m literally arguing with someone who is has their own tax advice over the phone. And I’m like arguing with the professional over this because they’re wrong, because professionals get this wrong. And this is why Stanford needs to step up and take a stance here, because that’s a lot of money here. And anyway, it also kind of points to how our government should function because it shouldn’t require years of legal experience to be able to navigate our tax code. 

37:02 Emily: I totally agree. It’s interesting that you and I have kind of come to this in a similar way of just like I just I just read the thing like, I just sat down and read it, like, completely. And once you do that a few times over a few years, like you kind of get used to the language and it’s not so intimidating. And you can make those connections like, Oh, the definition of qualified education expense is different depending on which benefit you’re talking about. Oh, the definition of earned income is different depending on which tax benefit you’re talking about, but you only pick up on that after, you know, exposure. And as you’re saying, it doesn’t it’s very hard to find, I mean, this is the experience my client is. But if you work with me, it’s because they can’t find a CPA who’s versed in this because it doesn’t pay. This is not their typical client base. And so you either have to find a CPA and really educate them or somehow find a magical unicorn, which I have not found who is like already well versed in this. But anyway, that’s why people end up working with me, because while I’m not a CPA, but I have read this and I’ve really tried over years, including professional consultations to understand what’s going on, and now I can communicate that

38:04 Jason A: Yeah, I mean, humans were never meant to read all IRS instructions document, so I don’t really want to fault them for it, but that’s just the world we live in. So.

38:16 Emily: It’s tough, especially because even many tax preparers, CPAs included end up relying on software to prepare the returns, and they’re not necessarily deeply analyzing what goes in and what comes out of that software. And if the software, as you said earlier, like TurboTax, is not designed to handle, like you can do it if you know the tricks, but it’s not intuitively designed to handle this income. And so if the software is letting you down, but you don’t even know enough to know that it’s letting you down, it’s a really, really tough area. Oh, I’m getting fired up about this, too. I’m like, I need to create a software solution. Okay. Anything else you want to say about this topic of estimated tax or the reporting or the taxability of like this fellowship type income?

38:55 Jason A: You know, I just want to add like my one sentence obstruction, which is what I do is I go to this website called Smart Asset. I put in my expected income. I ignore the FICA taxes and I look at the federal income and state income, and I take that number divide by four. And that’s what you need to be paying every quarter. And if you forget, you’re going to be splashed with interest and with interest and penalties. Interest rates high now. So if you get a fellowship, you owe money. Even if they don’t tell you

39:29 Emily: Exactly. And that’s the same website that I recommend when I teach this as well for like, okay, honestly, the best best thing to do is to fill out the estimated tax worksheet in form 1040-ES. Yes, but a lot of people don’t do that. I understand. So that calculator is a really good like substitute. You may be paying more than the bare minimum you’re required to, but that’s okay. Like if you accidentally overpay a little bit, you’ll get a refund at the end of the year. And it’s a quick way to get some peace of mind that you’re like, you’re on top of this issue. You’re not going to be fined at the end of the year, most likely. So yeah, I really like that suggestion. And the other thing that I’ll mention, just throw in there for potential future advocacy on on your front is that the university that I went to, Duke, they did withhold income tax on fellowship, paychecks and fellowship stipends. I’ve only heard of a couple of institutions that do that. It’s very, very, very rare. But it happened to be that the one that I attended did that and it causes other complications with reporting. So it’s not an easy, easy solution. But they did it somehow.

40:26 Jason A: Stanford told me that they can’t withhold and now you say that that that’s not true.

40:32 Emily: No, it’s not true.

40:32 Jason A: They don’t have to. But you know just, another reason why it’s not my problem go away administrator, but. Yeah, I mean I talked to them about this and I totally, I it might not be the best solution but I think it’s better. People have their rent deducted. You know in the tax office hours, they’re like, my, I have this deduction why wasn’t taxes put in there. I’m like well your rent deduction didn’t include a tax deduction. So, anyway.

41:01 Emily: Yeah, it’s definitely not impossible. But as I said, it’s very, very rare. What ended up happening in my case is that the income then was reported on a 1099 Miscellaneous. So they basically so they had a box for your amount of income and they had a box for your amount of withholding. They had to use a form that did that because the 1098T doesn’t have a box for how much income was withheld from it. Now compared to back when I was in graduate school, there are 2 1099 options that sometimes gets used for fellowship income. One is the 1099 MISC and one is the 1099 NEC, I’m not sure which Duke is currently using, but I’ve noticed that some funding agencies end up putting fellowship income on a 1099 NEC, which brings up a whole other issue, which is people confusing their fellowship income with self-employment income, which shouldn’t happen and just PSA to anyone who’s listening to this, like do not allow that to happen on your tax return because the fellowship was not self-employment income, in my opinion.

41:50 Emily: Okay. 

41:51 Jason A: It’s very expensive mistake. 

41:53 Emily: Incredibly, I mean.

41:53 Jason A: Very expensive mistake, yeah.

41:55 Emily: You mentioned the 7.65% for your FICA tax it’s double that right for self-employment tax. So huge, huge issue to get into and actually I’ll reference in the show notes an earlier podcast episode I did with someone who went down that mistake route and had to correct it with the IRS. Okay. So among these four areas that you’ve been working on, along with student government and some other people, are there any like big takeaways or lessons that you can convey to the listener about like best practices around doing this advocacy around financially related policies on campus?

Best Practices for Financial Policy Advocacy in Higher Education

42:24 Jason A: I you know, again, tenacity to read the documents. You know, I think we’ve gone through three examples where a Stanford administrator says the wrong thing because there’s just not there probably want to go away but IRS instructions twice and then know. Yeah so like you know on our outline here about how to negotiate for better benefits, the first step is to ask and when they say no, do your homework with with the documents. And you know, I consulted that retirement lawyer and graciously gave me that advice to confirm what I had read in the documents. So, you know, student governments can engage lawyers, unions can engage lawyers, you know, get your own advice and stick them with the letter that says, no, what you said was false. Oh, and then get it in writing too writing is really important because. Yeah. 

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

43:22 Emily: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for that. That advice, that suggestion, that route to go down. Let’s end with the question I ask all my interviewees, which is what is your best financial advice for another graduate student or another early career path? Ph.D. And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

43:40 Jason A: So. Okay, maybe this might be this, this might make you chuckle a little bit. So what I do when I file my taxes is I use, I do it redundantly with two softwares and then I submit it with the free one. I make sure the numbers match and it’s actually debugging that is how I’ve really learned the tax code of of all this. So and then so don’t pay money to the to corporations that lobby for our taxes to be complicated. So I will not do that. But anyway so that’s that’s the first piece of advice.

44:14 Emily: I want to make a small comment on that because I love that suggestion A lot of people don’t know. So I’ll mention TurboTax just because I’m more familiar with the software. A lot of people just, you know, input their numbers and then the the return is generated and filed. But there’s a step before that where you can preview your return. So you preview the 1040 and any other forms that have been generated through that process. And that’s what you can compare apples to apples with another software. You also preview the 1040 over there. You get a nice PDF or whatever, and there you can compare line by line to make sure everything matches or see what the discrepancies are. So you don’t just have to blindly submit whatever forms this software is generating. You can actually look at the final form before it’s submitted.

44:55 Jason A: Yeah, and, you know, TurboTax has like the automatic import. So it’s not necessarily that you’re entering it twice. It can be a just a double check

45:04 Emily: Very good. Well, I love that suggestion. Also for me, filing my tax returns manually, like literally by hand or through the free fillable form system was a great education. And I’m very I don’t know. Is the IRS still on track for their own software coming out for upcoming tax season? I know I’m excited too. Okay what was your second suggestion

45:26 Jason A: You know, so there’s this Reddit financial or personal finance page with the flowchart on what to do. I would Google that and follow the flow chart. And then one of those things after you’ve done emergency savings is, you know, Roth IRAs can be a vehicle for your emergency savings under certain circumstances because Roth IRAs, you can pull out the contributions, you can put your emergency savings in cash and a Roth IRA or Treasury bills if you if you want to do that, low risk. And then, you know, if you have the emergency, you have the emergency. But if you don’t have the emergency and five years at six grand, you know, then you’ll have $30,000 in your retirement and your Roth IRA when you end, and then you’ll go straight into that high income job will not be eligible. So, you know, if you can, I would put your savings in cash in a Roth IRA until you have enough cash to start investing it. But.

46:25 Emily: This is an advanced technique. It’s not one that I recommend because I think it’s difficult to do that. The qualifier that you mentioned is keep it in cash or keep it in a very no risk investment inside the Roth IRA. That’s what I think is difficult and where people might not complete this whole process correctly, because it is to me very important that you not take any risk with your emergency fund. But yes, you can still keep it inside the Roth IRA. I love your point of like use that eligibility to contribute to the Roth IRA when you have it, because it may not be around forever once you get to those higher paying jobs. So good suggestion, but I want them to listen to your whole suggestion.

47:01 Jason A: Yeah, it’s all about the audience here. You know, a Stanford PhD student, you know, you’ll find people who are ready to do that advanced topic. I mean, graduate students but yes, you’re right. Totally right about that.

47:14 Emily: Well, Jason, I’m so excited that you agreed to come on the podcast. This is a wonderful interview. I hope our listeners will take some of what we talked about today and go back to their own institutions and start advocating for some of these same issues or using some of the methods that you mentioned. And I especially love your tip about basically perseverance, both in reading the documents and doing your homework and also with your communications, because you’re going to get told no. And like you said, just it’s not personal. Let it roll off your back. Come back. You know, do your homework, etc. So this is really, really valuable, I think. Thank you so much.

47:42 Jason A: It’s been my pleasure. Thank you for reaching out. And I want to say good luck to all of your listeners in their their financial pursuits and advocacy and good luck to SGWU you as well, because we’re going to we’re going to fight like hell to get to get all the things we deserve.

Outtro

48:04 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

University-Level Policy Ideas to Improve the Financial Lives of Graduate Students and Postdocs

August 14, 2023 by Jill Hoffman 5 Comments

In this episode, Emily shares the microinterviews she recorded at two higher education conferences this past summer. The conference attendees, virtually all of whom work at universities and most of whom have PhDs themselves, responded to this prompt: “What policy at your current university or one you worked at or attended in the past would you change to improve the financial lives of the PhD students and/or postdocs?” Listen through the episode for numerous ideas for policy change to advocate for at your university.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • Graduate Career Consortium (GCC) Annual Meeting
  • Higher Education Financial Wellness Alliance (HEFWA) Summit
  • Host a PF for PhDs Seminar at Your Institution
  • Dr. Katy Peplin, Thrive PhD
  • Emily’s E-mail Address
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
University-Level Policy Ideas to Improve the Financial Lives of Graduate Students and Postdocs

Teaser

00:00 Michael D: And the reproduction of knowledge requires financial security. And when you’re in a situation where you’re not getting paid a living wage, it’s very, very difficult to achieve that financial security. So for me, that’s definitely the major policy change that I would love graduate programs across the country to adopt.

Introduction

00:19 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.

00:50 Emily: This is Season 15, Episode 5, and today I’m sharing the microinterviews I recorded at two higher education conferences this past summer. The conference attendees, virtually all of whom work at universities and most of whom have PhDs themselves, responded to this prompt: “What policy at your current university or one you worked at or attended in the past would you change to improve the financial lives of the PhD students and/or postdocs?” Listen through the episode for numerous ideas for policy change to advocate for at your university. The two conferences I attended were the Graduate Career Consortium Annual Meeting or GCC and the Higher Education Financial Wellness Alliance Summit or HEFWA Summit. GCC is primarily attended by university staff members working with PhD students and postdocs in career and professional development. The HEFWA Summit is attended by university staff members working in financial wellness and financial aid across undergraduate and graduate populations. These two conferences were excellent networking opportunities for me on top of the built-in professional development. However, there are plenty of universities who were not represented at these conferences.

02:10 Emily: Would you please consider recommending my financial education seminars and workshops at your university? My most popularly requested events for the upcoming academic year are How to Survive and Thrive Financially in Graduate School or Your Postdoc, How to Not Hate Your Fellowship During Tax Season, and Up-Level Your Cash Flow as a Graduate Student or Postdoc. Please direct an appropriate potential host within your graduate school, postdoc office, grad student association, etc. to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ where they can learn more. Thank you in advance!

02:53 Emily: You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s15e5/. Without further ado, here are the microinterviews recorded at GCC and the HEFWA Summit.

What policy at your current university or one you worked at or attended in the past would you change to improve the financial lives of the PhD students and/or postdocs?

Understanding Financial Priorities of International Students: Karin Lawton-Dunn, Iowa State University

03:11 Karin L-D: Okay. So I’m Karin Lawton-Dunn and I’m at Iowa State University. And what policy would you change when you’re current or former university campus to improve financial life for graduate students or postdocs? Since I work primarily with international students, I think I would try to change the understanding of faculty and staff of all of the different priorities that international students have with their money, and so that, you know, they really will go without food, without meals, so that they’re able to send some money home to their families that are also in need and struggling with food and housing. And I think that we need to be understanding of that and not punishing them for doing that.

Fee Exemption: Laura Farrell-Wortman, University of Arizona Cancer Center

03:53 Laura F-W: I’m Laura Farrell-Wortman. I’m the assistant director for academic programs with the University of Arizona Cancer Center. So I think that the policy that I would change would be to exempt PhD students from required fees, because I think that it really is, you know, important revenue generation for the university. But it does feel a little bit like kind of like the company store right where you are getting the money for working there, but that you’re turning right around and giving the money back to the university so it doesn’t feel like it’s a really sustainable system. And I would I would be interested to see what kind of revenue generation they’re actually getting from the PhD students and whether or not that could be found in an alternative means.

Postdoc Stipends and Benefits: Kaylee Steen, University of Michigan Medical School

04:41 Kaylee S: My name is Kaylee Steen. I work at the University of Michigan Medical School, and my advice for changing a policy at our institution that we’re actually implementing is ensuring that all postdocs at least make the minimum NIH stipend for their years of experience at the university. I think is really key. And another policy that we have not implemented would be that postdocs receive the same retirement benefits as are the rest of our staff, with the 2 to 1 matching.

Postdoc Benefits: Chris Smith, Virginia Tech

05:19 Chris S: My name’s Chris Smith. I manage the Office of Post-Doc Affairs at Virginia Tech. And one policy I’d like to see change really across the landscape is treating postdocs more like employees with employee benefits, especially retirement matching. Some institutions do that. We are one of them, but a lot of them don’t. And I think it’s important for them to kind of set them up for success.

Postdoc Training and Benefits: Weiwei Xu, Tulane School of Medicine

05:40 WeiWei X: My name is Weiwei Xu. I’m the academic and career advisor for a biomedical sciences graduate program within the Tulane School of Medicine. I think we can actually provide postdocs with more training programs as well as social benefits and retirement benefits so that they feel more supported by the school and by their training programs.

Cost of Living Adjustments: Beth Hunsaker, University of Utah

06:05 Beth H: My name is Beth Hunsaker with the University of Utah’s Financial Wellness Center. I’m the associate director, and the policy that I would want to see changed is to have cost of living adjustments, how much it costs to have rent. When that’s over half of what their stipend is and they’re not able to go and work somewhere else does doesn’t work for their families.

Consistent Funding and Transparency: Chris Hamm, University at Buffalo

06:28 Chris H: My name is Chris Hamm from the University at Buffalo. And the first prompt it was asking about what policy would you change in your current or previous campus approved financial life for grad students? And for me, just working with graduate students, noticing the opportunities for GA TA and RA positions, we do have, you know, minimum amount of financing for those positions that are agreed upon. But I think it’s not consistent across the board for each of different departments. And also true, since it’s a larger university, it’s very siloed as far as what information’s available to graduate students. So I think being able to have that be a little bit more transparent, giving them the opportunity to be more competitive, get themselves these positions and also make them aware of it, because a lot of times it’s only specifically in departments and I think it’s a really great opportunity because that’s something that I did when I was in grad school as well to help fund my education and get my experiences.

Postdoc Benefits: Alexandra Schnoes, Science Communication Lab

07:22 Alexandra S: Hi, I’m Alexandra Schnoes. I am the director for professional development at the Science Communication Lab. One of the things that I think about a lot is, is how postdocs at different institutions are often under these weird sort of employment categories. They’re often in different employment categories at the same institution. They often don’t have access to things, even though they’re considered employees are also considered trainees. So they also often don’t have access to things like sometimes even health care. But potentially child care support or retirement accounts. And and all of these things are ridiculous. These are these are people with Ph.Ds who are acting as professionals and and they should be able to be treated like you know, the employees that they actually are, as opposed to some weird, crazy, you know, none of the above, which means they get none of the benefits and all of the work of being a postdoc sometimes for years on end, doing amazing work, making the university home. But then they’ve sacrificed finances, potentially health care, retirement accounts, the ability to have children, all of this, all of these are things that policies could actually help address.

Child Care: Kathryn Sawyer Vidrine, University of Notre Dame

08:57 Kathryn SV: So this is Kathryn Sawyer Vidrine from Notre Dame and if I were to change one policy to make life easier on graduate students and post-docs, it would be to provide childcare for children under two years old because there is almost none in our area. 

Postdoc Benefits: Peter Myers, Washington University in Saint Louis

09:16 Peter M: My name is Peter Myers. I’m at Washington University in Saint Louis. The one policy that I would change for postdocs would be to make them all employees of the university.

Wages/Stipends: Elizabeth Eikmann, Washington University in Saint Louis

09:30 Elizabeth E: My name is Elizabeth Eikmann. I am the program coordinator for Postdoctoral Community Engagement at Washington University in Saint Louis, and I was a graduate student at Saint Louis University. And if I could change one policy for my former university’s campus to improve the financial life of the grad students there, it would be immediate graduate assistantship raises. The wages currently are not even living wage wages. Graduate assistants there are paid only nine months out of the year instead of 12. So not only implementing a raise but also instituting a year round salary, which also includes year round access to health insurance, which is not currently a policy there on campus.

Retirement Benefits: Maggie Nettesheim Hoffmann, Humanities Without Walls Consortium

10:24 Maggie NH: My name is Maggie Nettesheim Hoffmann. I’m the associate director of Career diversity for the Humanities Without Walls Consortium. Which is a grant for a Mellon funded, grant funded project at space at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. But I am located at Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So I think the policy advice that I would give and more systemically across, you know, higher education across the nation would be to recommend to universities that you consider one of the benefits for graduate students enrolled in your schools to give them access to starting their own 403b plans while they’re working on their master’s degrees or their PhDs, and making that a real benefit of, you know, if you’re at a public university that has you know, that regard, students are organized, making that a part of your union contract negotiations, aiming at private institutions, right? I mean, it’s not a heavy cost to the institution at all just to give them a framework or structure to start investing into those for all three plants. So that would be one of the policies that I would advocate as a shift in our higher ed, higher education ecosphere. Yeah.

Financial Education: Brady Krien, University of Iowa

11:32 Brady K: So my name is Brady Krien and I work at the University of Iowa, and the policy that I would change on our campus is to actually give us greater latitude to provide resources and information about finances for graduate students, and particularly related to the tax implications of fellowships that they win and how they need to prepare in advance to deal with those.

Financial Education: Yazzmynn Martinez, University of Colorado, Boulder

11:58 Yazzmynn M: Hi, everyone. My name is Yazzmynn Martinez. I am a events education and emergency response coordinator at the University of Colorado Boulder. I work at the Basic Needs center and one policy that I would change about the university campus to improve the financial life of our graduate and postdoc students is to provide a more formal education on basic needs in general so that can include how to get housing before they start college and also how to like budget with groceries and other expenses. And I would also advocate to increase the stipend just because oftentimes that’s not even enough for students to cover their living expenses.

Transparency: Katy Peplin, Thrive PhD

12:45 Katy P: Hi, I’m Katy Peplin from Thrive PHD. You can find me at thrive dash PhD dot com. I work with graduate students all around the world on being a scholar and a human. What policy would be useful. I think that the biggest policy that universities can put in place is transparency. I know so many students who have been caught in between different policies where they weren’t aware that certain things applied to them when they actually did or they lost out on money because things were well communicated. And I know that it’s extra work for universities to make some of those things transparent. But the more information that’s readily and easily accessible, the less grad students have to depend on their departments or their advisors who might not be well informed to let them. Know about opportunities. So transparency.

Commercial

13:31 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2023-2024 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Wages/Stipends: Sasha Goldman, Boston University

15:38 Sasha G: I am Sasha Goldman. I am the director of PCE resources at Boston University. And if I could change a policy on my current university campus to improve the financial life of the graduate students and postdocs, I would give everyone 12 months of funding and everyone more money.

Fellowship Payment: Joseph Gonzales, University of Miami

15:56 Joseph G: My name is Joseph Gonzales and I’m the senior director in the Office of Science and Assistance at the University of Miami. And the policy that I would change and this isn’t specifically related to my current campus. It’s based on my experience at different campuses. It’s how people pay like to pay fellowships, and especially when there’s a research component to it, they tend not to use the employment side of it where it would be there would be tax withholdings, because I believe sometimes faculty think that it’s a way to sidestep tax. The tax requirement when they don’t realize that it’s actually basically pushing it down the line for the student to deal with later and sometimes that often students don’t realize that there is a tax liability too, that comes with their financial aid. And by the time they’ve found out they haven’t saved money for that liability. So puts them in this financial crunch, sort of once their taxes are had been filed or they don’t claim it, and then it just gets pushed further down the line. So I would like faculty and universities in general to have said you’re trying to help other people. I don’t know if it’s more of a process that is that are aligned because it changes from one university to the other and how these are handled.

Wages/Stipends: Alex Embree, University of Missouri

17:39 Alex E: My name is Alex Embree. I’m the program manager at the Office for Financial Success for the University of Missouri. And the policy that I would want to have changed is that graduate student payment is in accordance with the value that they bring to the university when they are operating in a teaching capacity or grant. They need to be paid accordingly.

Time to Degree Transparency: Robbie Pearson, Southern Methodist University

18:03 Robbie P: My name is Robbie Pearson, and I’m the director of graduate and postdoctoral graduate career development and post-doc affairs at SMU in Dallas, Texas. And in terms of policies that I would be interested in revising around graduate education to improve the financial life of grad students and postdocs, I’m really interested in time to degree. I would like to see more transparency around how long it takes to earn a doctoral degree, and I’d like to see policies and initiatives around making sure that that’s a reasonable amount of time. Right. So in some fields it could take eight, nine, ten years to earn a doctoral degree or longer. And, you know, there’s some case that that’s important for the intellectual development of the scholar and for the research that they’re contributing to. But I also want to balance that against the reality that graduate students should be thinking of their time in grad student in grad school as an investment, not only into the intellectual development and into their field, but also into their financial futures. So getting them into the workforce in a reasonable amount of time is a really good thing. From my perspective.

Financial Education and Wages/Stipends: Stevie Eberle, Stanford University School of Medicine

19:03 Steve E: Stevie Eberle, executive director and assistant dean of biosecurity at Stanford University School of Medicine. So what policy would you change in your current or former university campus to improve the financial life of graduate students and postdocs? I would. We have an entry level class that all incoming graduate students have to take. And then there is a kind of an intro group that postdocs attend. And I really do wish we had financial training and planning built into the trainings, especially in the Bay Area because it’s so expensive and you you can’t quite understand it until you’re there. So I really would like somebody who can very directly explain the market and directly explain how to navigate it and have the resources to develop that. That being said, I think it is the administration’s responsibility to also help build better structures for that which we are working on, I will say. So we have subsidized housing in that type of thing, but subsidized housing is still very expensive. So I would like to have better pay, better caps, better minimum salaries and better coaching for faculty on how to treat something else. And often treat students and postdocs as more respectfully and more like adults and give them better tools for negotiation. Because I do think sometimes faculty just don’t know that. Sometimes they do, and that’s the problem, but sometimes they don’t. So I’d like to do better education on equitable offers and help better develop those kind of baseline expectations for parents and for this.

Cost Transparency: Derek Attig, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

20:57 Derek A: I’m Derek Attig. I work in the Graduate college at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. And I’d like to see it be consistent that tuition and fees and the total cost of graduate education is completely transparent to people before they apply and when they’re making the decision to attend so they can understand the costs and weigh that against outcomes they hope to achieve.

Wages/Stipends: Michael Dedmon, National Endowment for Financial Education

21:25 Michael D: My name is Michael Dedmon. I’m the research director at the National Endowment for Financial Education and a Ph.D. candidate in political science at Syracuse University. I can definitely say for me that the single policy change that I would love for my graduate program, which is still sort of considering to adopt, is to raise wages and raise stipends for for graduate students. My department recently unionized, even though I’m an advanced graduate student and no longer in the bargaining unit. It’s something that’s very, very close to my heart that I think is very important. It’s beneficial for universities in terms of recruitment and retention. It reduces time to degree. It reduces attrition. We all know the benefits of it, in addition to the fact that the work that the students put in is what makes the universities work. They’re teaching students, they’re producing research, they’re publishing papers. It’s a beneficial situation for everybody. And the reproduction of knowledge requires financial security. And when you’re in a situation where you’re not getting paid a living wage, it’s very, very difficult to achieve that financial security. So for me, that’s definitely the major policy change that I would love graduate programs across the country to adopt.

Wages/Stipends: Byron Kerr, Texas State University

22:30 Byron K: Hi, I’m Dr. Byron Kerr with Financial aid and scholarships at Texas State University, and I received my Ph.D. from Florida State University in Tallahassee and what I would like to see changed on college campuses is back in the day. At any rate, my stipend check for my for my Ph.D. always came in a month after the payment deadline. So I always generated a $100 late fee every single semester. So I was always costing me money to be employed.

Housing: Anna Sheufelt, Duke University

22:58 Anna S: My name is Anna Sheufelt I work at Duke University, overseeing the educational programing and outreach for the Office of Student Loans and Personal Finance. A policy change that I would love to see come to. My campus is guaranteed housing for our international masters and graduate students. These are folks who have some of the largest complexities going on in their lives and also some of the greatest financial constraints with the international student status.

Wages/Stipends and Tuition: Annie Maxfield, University of Texas at Austin

23:28 Annie M: My name is Annie Maxfield. And I am at UT Austin in Texas. Career engagement and I would say the biggest financial policy problem is that tuition has continually become higher and higher over the years. Yet graduates students stipends are not increasing at that rate. And so we know the university is taking in more funds. However, the distribution of those funds is inequitable in terms of how graduate student labor is actually compensated.

Child Care: Phil Schuman, Indiana University

24:03 Phil S: So my name is Phil Schuman. I’m from Indiana University. One thing I do expect to see for a lot of grad students throughout higher ed is more access to child care and whether or not that’s temporary or permanent or whatever. But just the ability for grad students to be able to focus on their studies, their academics when they have child, if you have childcare issues come up, just because we’ve seen a lot of childcare and daycare cost issues and closing on campus. But I think it’s one thing, it’s a huge barrier that could potentially prevent grad students from getting over that hurdle. 

Fellowship Transparency and Experiential Learning for International Students: Sonali Majumdar, Princeton University

24:34 Sonali M:  Yeah. Hi, everyone. I am Sonali Majumdar and Assistant Dean for Professional Development in the Grad Futures program of the Graduate School of Princeton University. And I just wanted to talk a little bit about what kind of inclusive policies university campuses could have to support their international graduate students. And most of population on their financial wellness. And there are two things that come to mind. One is transparency on what kind of research fellowships are open to international graduate students and postdocs. And a lot of the universities do have research, Discovery Fellowship. Discovery databases like David Hopkins has a public dashboard that like lists all sorts of fellowships at the Graduate and closed off level by citizenship accessibility as well. And the other thing is experiential learning. What can we do to make experiential learning more accessible to international population? One pathway that does work is our internships and our fellowships that are funded by the institution that the students are working on, and that relates to work policies of how much academic hours on top of academic hours are. Students are available to work at university offices or other units on internships. And so there is definitely some interesting new programs that are helping out in this arena. And I hope more universities would eventually think about accessibility for their international population. On experiential learning. Thank you.

Financial Education: Matt Hertenstein, DePaul University

26:05 Matt H: Hi, my name is Matt Hertenstein, a college professor at DePaul University, received my Ph.D. at U.C. Berkeley in 2000. It may have changed since I graduated, but the policy I would change was to actually teach some financial literacy advice and financial wellness to Ph.Ds and make that a priority during orientation and make sure that people actually knew that that was available to help them.

Health Insurance: Alex Yen, Boston University

26:33 Alex Y: Hi, my name is Alex Yen I am a postdoc at Boston University in the Professional Development and Postdoctoral Affairs office. The policy that I would change or wish could change is that I hope that more universities will allow graduate students who take time off to keep their student health insurance during that time off. So that way they can take care of their mental health while they are recovering or taking some time away.

Outtro

27:14 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Vote with Your Feet, Prospective Graduate Students

November 9, 2015 by Emily

When I was applying to and interviewing for grad school, I told myself that the only factor I would consider when selecting a school was the advisor with whom I would work. I wanted to do high-quality research in my sub-discipline of interest and wouldn’t let the reputation of the program, the city, or anything else get in the way of working with the best advisor (for me) possible.

Thankfully, my preferences with respect to the non-research factors crept into my decision-making subconsciously when I compared the programs I’d been accepted to. Ultimately, I decided that two potential advisors at different universities would be equally excellent for me to work with, and I allowed the cities the universities were in to break the tie. Namely, one city had better weather… and my then-boyfriend-now-husband was already enrolled in a PhD program there.

Now that I have completed graduate school and corresponded with thousands of students at universities across the US, I realize just how fortunate I was that my decision-making process didn’t completely backfire on me. Yes, your research advisor and the quality of the research produced by your department is an important consideration, but not to the exclusion of other factors affecting your quality of life.

Your stipend and benefits offer will greatly affect your lifestyle during graduate school and possibly your net worth for the rest of your life. Consider the same student accepted to two programs, one of which would force her to live paycheck to paycheck while the other would allow her to save. This disparity in savings ability over even this short period of time can result in a difference of hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars in retirement due to the power of compound interest.

Further reading: Whether You Save During Graduate School Can Have a $1,000,000 Effect on Your Retirement

If you are a competitive applicant—meaning you’ve been accepted to two or more programs—you have the opportunity to take your financial offers into consideration. While you shouldn’t necessarily accept the largest stipend and benefits offer (after adjusting for cost of living), you should vote with your feet by vocally declining offers that too low to provide you with a reasonable lifestyle.

If you do decline any admissions offers for this reason (perhaps among others), you should let the departments know why. At the same time that you are competing with other applicants for admissions, the departments are competing with one another to attract the best individuals and overall class. Universities pay attention to how well they are doing in comparison with their peer institutions on various metrics, and many of them try to offer stipends and benefits that are in line with their chief competitors. (Some programs even offer unusually high stipends when they are trying to move up in rankings.) The departments pay attention to which programs they they lose students to and why. Giving them the extra information that the lower stipend (relative to the local cost of living) or lack of benefits played into your decision is a great act of service to both the departments and students if they choose to use this information to improve how they treat their current and future students.

Once you have accepted a program’s offer of admissions, you still have the opportunity to advocate for higher pay and better benefits, especially through assembling with other students. However, your strongest position for making your voice heard is often before you accept an offer or upon your rejection of it. Once you have started graduate school, the switching costs become so high that departments practically have you over a barrel. Graduate students rarely negotiate their offer letters, so one of the best actions they can take is to vote with their feet by declining unacceptable offers outright. It’s hard to overstate how much universities depend on graduate students and postdocs to bring in grant money, produce research that raises their prestige, and create their other major product (undergraduate education). This value should be reflected in the pay students receive, and if it’s not, the departments need to hear about it.

Further listening:

  • Negotiating PhD Funding Offers: This Grad Student Did It Successfully
  • This PhD Compares Her Experiences at a Unionized University and a Non-Unionized University
  • Insights from the Bargaining Table with a Graduate Student Union Leader

There are two practical steps prospective graduate students can take to strengthen their position when accepting or rejecting admissions offers:

1. Apply to a number of programs. I know it’s expensive and time-consuming to add schools to your application list, but that cost pales in comparison to how much going to a poor-paying or unsupportive program will hurt you over the years you are in it. Having multiple admissions offers will give you the best chance of attending a program that will support you as a whole person.

Further reading: The Full Cost of Applying to PhD Programs

2. Thoroughly research the stipend offer letter extended to you by each program you gain admission to as well as the benefits provided by the university and how the benefits have changed over time. While some of that research is available online, you will almost certainly need to talk with multiple current students to get the real scoop. Ask them if they can live comfortably on their stipends and how they define comfortable. Ask them if there are any common financial pain points that students gripe about. Ask them if out-of-pocket fees have increased in the past few years, whether the ACA has changed their health insurance benefits, and about any special considerations you have such as partner benefits, childcare subsidies, or support for students with chronic medical conditions. If the students share their perception of an “us vs. them” attitude on the part of the administration or an administration that is powerless protect students from federal and state funding changes, take that as a major red flag.

Further reading: Before PhD Admissions Season Starts, Discover What a Standard Offer Is in Your Field

When I was applying to grad school, I didn’t know about benefits, unions, how states cutting higher education funding affects grad students, or health insurance subsidies. I had no idea that a good advisor or good department could be housed in a university that has an adversarial relationship with its students. I consider myself very fortunate that I ended up at a university that provided a reasonable stipend and benefits and had a supportive administration just by following my research and weather preferences.

I don’t want you to get ‘unlucky’ in this process simply because of a lack of information or that you only received one admissions offer. I want you to accept an offer that allows you to live a reasonably comfortable lifestyle in graduate school for your own well-being, and I want you to signal to departments whose offers didn’t meet that standard where they are lacking for the benefit of their current and future students. If enough of us vote with our feet by rejecting low offers, the departments and universities will hear us and be forced to change.

Graduate Student Benefits

March 8, 2015 by Emily

source
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Wellness

While not the case in every program, grad students often receive free or subsidized health insurance and gym memberships.

On-Campus Entertainment and Socializing

Your student ID will likely give you access to all kinds of subsidized or free on-campus entertainment and socializing, such as happy hours, parties, sports, concerts, theater, etc.

Discounts

At on-campus and off-campus retailers, as whether they offer a student discount, especially for big-ticket items like computers.

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