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What Your University Isn’t Telling You About Your Income Tax

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In this episode, Emily lists six things that your university isn’t telling you about your income tax. Point 1 is on why and how this lack of communication manifests. Point 2 is on what your Form 1098-T, if you even receive one, is not telling you. Points 3 through 5 are on the extra steps that grad students, postdocs, and postbacs on fellowships or training grants need to take but are rarely instructed on or even warned about. Finally, point 6 is on the tax pitfalls that anyone under age 24 needs to watch out for.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

university income tax

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Intro

Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts.

This is Season 8, Episode 1, and I don’t have a guest today, but rather will list for you six things that your university isn’t telling you about your income tax. Point 1 is on why and how this lack of communication manifests. Point 2 is on what your Form 1098-T, if you even receive one, is not telling you. Points 3 through 5 are on the extra steps that grad students, postdocs, and postbacs on fellowships or training grants need to take but are rarely instructed on or even warned about. Finally, point 6 is on the tax pitfalls that anyone under age 24 needs to watch out for.

Please keep in mind that I’m recording and publishing this episode in early January 2021 for tax year 2020, so if you are listening to this at a later date, please check the Tax Center on my website, PFforPhDs.com/tax/ for any relevant tax law changes or other updates.

For Season 8 of the podcast, I’ve shifted up the format! There are two new short segments, one before and one after the interview or, in the case of this episode, expert discourse. I hope this new format will encourage more interactions between me and you, the listener!

Book Giveaway

Without further ado, here’s my episode on what your university isn’t telling you about your income tax. I have seven points for you today.

Preliminary Comments

Before we get into my list, I need to make a few general comments.

First, this episode is for US citizens and residents living and working in the US who have household incomes below about $150,000. I am discussing federal income tax only, but don’t forget that you might be subject to state and local income tax and other types of taxes as well.

Second, I am not a CPA or any kind of tax advisor, so none of this is advice for financial, legal, or tax purposes.

Third, I’m going to use the terms employee income and awarded income throughout the episode, so I need to define them for you up front because I semi made them up.

Employee income is the stipend or salary you receive in exchange for working for your university or institute. It is reported on a Form W-2 at tax time. Typically, employee positions at the graduate student level are called assistantships and max out at half-time positions.

Awarded income is the stipend or salary you receive from your fellowship or training grant, provided it is not reported on a Form W-2 at tax time. You are not considered an employee with respect to awarded income. Awarded income also includes the money that pays your tuition and fees if you are a funded grad student and your health insurance premiums if you are a postdoc or postbac non-employee. We’ll talk more about the tax forms awarded income may or may not show up on momentarily.
Fourth, if you want to learn more from me about any of the subjects I mention, the best place to go is PFforPhDs.com/tax/, where you can find many free articles, podcast episodes, etc. If you want to really dive in deep, I have two paid workshops available.

How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!) goes over how to handle your higher education income and expenses with respect to your tax return, whether you ultimately prepare it manually, using software, or through a human tax preparer. You can find that at PFforPhDs.com/taxworkshop/.

Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients explains how you know if you’re responsible for paying quarterly estimated tax and goes line-by-line through the relevant tax form to show you how to estimate your tax due. You can find that at PFforPhDs.com/QEtax/. That’s q for quarterly. e for estimated, t, a, x.

Finally, if you want to bring this tax content and more to your peers at your university or institute, I am available for live speaking engagements. Head to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ for more info on that.
All right! With that out of the way, here is my list of six things your university isn’t telling you about your income tax.

1. Anything

Your university is not telling you anything about your income tax. This can happen in one or both of two ways.

The first mode of non-communication is through tax forms or a lack of tax forms. Now, employees definitely will receive a Form W-2 at tax time that lists their stipend or salary. But the university isn’t necessarily required to send you any forms regarding your awarded income. It’s actually quite common for grad students and postdocs to receive zero tax forms or any kind of formal or informal communication regarding their income. And that obviously leaves them totally adrift, and many don’t even realize that they are supposed to account for their stipends or salaries on their tax return.

Not all universities take this zero communication approach for their PhD trainees receiving awarded income. A lot of them report grad student awarded income on Form 1098-T in Box 5, even though the IRS does not require them to. A minority report awarded stipends or salaries on Form 1099-MISC in Box 3. Some send an informal letter listing the amount of the awarded stipend or salary. These approaches are helpful to a degree, but it would be even better if there was one standard way of reporting awarded income that was used by all universities in the US.

The second mode of non-communication is through staff members. Almost universally, staff members are instructed to not discuss income tax with individual students or postdocs. The university does not want to make itself liable for erroneous tax returns. Even though that’s frustrating, I think it is understandable.

As a sidebar, despite this prohibition, grad students and postdocs frequently repeat misinformation to me that they heard from staff members. Now, whether the staff member said something incorrect or the student simply misinterpreted what was said, I can’t be sure. A perfect example is the phrase “Your stipend isn’t subject to income tax,” which many students have repeated to me. What I think the staff member said or meant to say is “Your stipend is not subject to income tax withholding.” However, what the student hears is “You don’t have to pay income tax on your stipend.” You can see that this is a topic that needs to be discussed carefully.

The best case scenario seems to be when universities host educational workshops on higher education tax topics. Those are typically led by knowledgable staff members, volunteers from local accounting firms, or me, an outside contractor. None of us are giving individual tax advice, but we are teaching grad students and postdocs how the university reports their income and higher education expenses and how the IRS views the same.

So super best case scenario, you receive some kind of tax form or letter and have the opportunity to attend a workshop. Worst case scenario, no forms or letters and everyone clams up.

2. Your Form 1098-T Lacks Vital Information

I want to like Form 1098-T, I really do. It’s the best we have. And, without getting too much into the weeds, Form 1098-T has undergone a couple edits recently that make it far, far easier to use. So that is great. I wish its usage was universal.

Where Form 1098-T still falls short is in failing to catalog all awarded income and all higher education expenses that are relevant to a funded grad student.

On the income side, it’s typical to include tuition and fee scholarships and waivers in Box 5. Often, though not always, the awarded stipend or salary appears as well. But you might have received other awarded income as well during the year from your university or another source, and if that funding was not processed by the department that prepares the Form 1098-T, it may be left out. So you can look at the number in Box 5 of your 1098-T, but you still need to wrack your brain to come up with any additional awarded income you might have had for the year.

On the expenses side, Form 1098-T Box 1 reports “payments received for qualified tuition and related expenses.” A lot of people and software conflate the sum listed in that box with the total of their qualified education expenses for the year. Qualified education expenses are used to reduce your taxable income or your tax liability. I don’t want to get too technical in this episode, but if you make that assumption, you might be missing out on hundreds or even thousands of dollars of qualified education expenses, meaning you could overpay your true tax liability by tens or hundreds of dollars. This is because the definition of “qualified education expenses” is actually different depending on which higher education tax benefit you’re using them for, and Form 1098-T uses the most conservative definition. So unfortunately you can’t just go with the number listed in Box 1. You have to look into all of your higher education expenses individually to determine which you can use for the tax benefit you chose. That means combing through your student account as well as considering other spending you’ve done.

I wish Form 1098-T were completely trustworthy so you wouldn’t have to track down all the underlying expenses in your student account, but it’s just not the case right now.

If you would like some support through this process, I recommend joining my tax workshop at PFforPhDs.com/taxworkshop/. I provide a detailed discussion of what qualified education expenses are missing from Form 1098-T and worksheets to help you keep all the numbers straight.

3. Your Fellowship or Training Grant Income Is Taxable

I just wanted to close the loop I brought up in point #1. In case you were not aware, awarded income is taxable to the extent that it exceeds your qualified education expenses such as tuition and required fees.

Now, just because some income is taxable doesn’t mean you will actually end up paying income tax on it. If your total income is low enough or your have enough deductions and credits to claim, you may not end up paying any income tax. But you have to go through the exercise of filling out your tax return to determine if and how much income tax you owe, and that is true whether your income is awarded or employee or both.

There is a persistent rumor within many universities and departments that awarded income is tax-exempt. That actually used to be the case several decades ago, so there is a kernel of outdated truth in the rumor. And I can understand why the rumor lives on and spreads, because it is what people want to hear. Plus, at many places it is not countered by direct communication from the university as in point #1.

If you would like to hear my full argument with IRS references to prove that awarded income is taxable, please listen to Season 2 Bonus Episode 1 of this podcast, titled “Do I Owe Income Tax on My Fellowship?” It is linked from the show notes for this episode.

4. Your Paycheck Is Pre-Tax, Not Post-Tax.

I’m going to expand on the issues related to awarded stipends and salaries now.

With employee income, your employer withholds income tax on your behalf to send to the IRS and gives you a paycheck for the rest of your income, which is your net or after-tax income. A pay stub is also generated for each paycheck that lists your gross income and all the tax that has been withheld, though you might have to proactively seek it out.

While it is possible to withhold income tax from awarded income, most universities and institutes don’t offer this benefit. There is typically no pay stub generated, either. In the absence of clear communication, harkening back to point #1, many, many fellows who are on board with point #3 assume that their income has already had income tax withheld. After all, that is how paychecks work for the great majority of people who receive them.

It’s a nasty surprise when they realize that their pay is pre-tax, not post-tax, and they have a large tax bill to pay.

5. Your Income Tax Is Due Four Times per Year, Not One

This point follows on on from point #4 for those who do not have income tax withheld from their awarded stipends or salaries:

If the amount you owe in income tax exceeds $1,000 for the year and you don’t fall into an exception category, you are required to make what are called estimated tax payments. This is when you, personally, send the IRS money up to four times per year to stand in for income tax withholding.
Going along with point #1, this is rarely discussed or even mentioned to grad students and postdocs receiving awarded income. A heads up would be nice.

Ideally, fellowship recipients would be told that they might owe income tax—point #3—and that tax is not being withheld from their paychecks—point #4—and that the best practice is to set aside money from each paycheck for their future tax payments, whether that is once per year or up to four times per year—this point.

If you would like more information about estimated tax for fellowship recipients, I have a great long-form article on it that I’ll link to from the show notes. If you want my help to determine if you are required to make estimated tax payments and in what amount, I recommend checking out my workshop at PFforPhDs.com/qetax, that’s qe for quarterly estimated t a x.

6. Those of You Under Age 24 Need to Be Extra Cautious

If you are under age 24 at the end of the tax year and receive primarily awarded income, there are two tax potholes for you to watch out for. Your university won’t tell you about these subjects because it comes way too close to giving tax advice.

The first is potentially being claimed as a dependent by your parent or other relative, which generally speaking is not good for your bottom line but good for theirs. I have observed that parents and the people who prepare their tax returns tend to default to assuming that anyone under age 24 who is a student is a dependent. The thing to know about being claimed as a dependent is that it’s not a matter of preference. There is a set of five objective tests to determine if a young person is a dependent, which you can read about in Publication 501. There is a tricky part of one of the tests, though, the support test, which is different depending on if your stipend or salary is employee income or awarded income, so watch out for that. You should go the extra mile to discuss with your parent or relative whether you can be claimed as a dependent before either of you files in case there is a difference of opinion to work out, because it’s much easier to do it that way than to mediate a disagreement via the IRS.

The second is the Kiddie Tax. The Kiddie Tax is an alternative way of calculating your tax liability based on your parent’s marginal tax rate instead of your own graduated tax rates. Ostensibly, the Kiddie Tax is supposed to disincentivize high-earning parents from sheltering income-generating assets in their children’s names, but in a mind-boggling twist, the Kiddie Tax applies to awarded income, not just investment income. I have an article on my site on the Kiddie Tax linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. I sincerely hope that it does not apply to you or you can find a way to avoid it or minimize it, but in any case it is something to be aware of and watch out for.

I have a whole video in How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!) dedicated to people who were under age 24 during the tax year, so if you want a more in-depth exploration of these topics, please go to PFforPhDs.com/taxworkshop/.

Conclusion

I’m really glad you joined me for this episode! If you found something of value in it, please share it with your peers. You can save them a lot of emotional and financial turmoil and stress by giving them a heads up about the topics I covered. I really appreciate it! Good luck this tax season, and don’t hesitate to reach out if you need any help!

Listener Q&A

Outro

Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode!

pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved!

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow:

  1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me!
  2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website.
  3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes.
  4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs.

 See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC.

Catching Up with Prior Guests: 2020 Edition

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Emily published the first episode of this podcast in July 2018. This is the one hundred and seventh episode, and over the last two and a half years, the podcast has featured 94 unique voices in addition to Emily’s. The last episode in 2020 catches up with the guests from Seasons 1 through 3. The guests were invited to submit short audio updates on how their lives and careers have evolved since the time of their interview. The question with which all the interviews are concluded now, “What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?” was not one that was asked in the earliest seasons. The guests who didn’t have the opportunity to answer the question in their initial interviews answer it in this update, so you’ll hear lots of financial advice throughout the episode as you have grown to expect from this podcast.

Link Mentioned in this Episode

financial interviews

Introduction

00:10 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 16, and today I’m featuring many guest voices. I published the first episode of this podcast in July, 2018. This is the 107th episode and over the last two and a half years, the podcast has featured 94 unique voices, in addition to my own. For a last episode in 2020, I thought it would be fun to catch up with the guests from seasons one through three. I invited them to submit short audio clips to update us on how their lives and careers have evolved since the time of our interview. The question with which I conclude all of my interviews now “what is your best financial advice for another early career PhDs?” was not one I asked in the earliest seasons. I asked the guests who didn’t have the opportunity to answer the question in their initial interviews to do so in this update, so you’ll hear lots of wonderful financial advice throughout the episode, as you’ve grown to expect from this podcast. The audio clips in this episode are ordered by when the original episode was published. If you’d like to circle back and listen to any of the previous interviews you can do so in your podcatcher app, or at my website, pfforphds.com/podcast. To keep up with future episodes, please hit subscribe on that podcatcher and/or join my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Since I featured my own financial story from graduate school in season one episode one, you’ll hear an update from me first followed by the rest of the guests. Happy listening and here’s to the end of 2020!

Dr. Emily Roberts

01:53 Emily: Hi, this is Emily Roberts from Personal Finance for PhDs. I was on season one, episodes one and two, and season three, episode one and it’s been about two and a half years since I recorded the first of those episodes. Not a whole lot has changed career-wise in that time. My husband still works for the same startup that brought us to Seattle, and I’ve expanded my business into a few new areas. I now offer one-on-one financial coaching, run a group coaching program called The Wealthy PhD a few times per year, and facilitate the Personal Finance for PhDs community. And of course, continue to host this podcast and give seminars and webinars for universities and conferences. The big personal changes are that we had a second child, so our daughters are now ages four and two, and we moved from Seattle to Southern California in August, 2020. Moving in a pandemic with toddlers was much more challenging and less enjoyable than the move I described in my earlier episode, but it went very smoothly, all things considered my husband and I are now technically location independent, at least for the time being. Our current big financial goal is to buy our first home in Southern California in 2021. For the last several years, we’ve balanced investing for retirement with saving a down payment, so hopefully we’ve done enough on both fronts. I’m really looking forward to stability in the housing area of my life. Thanks for listening to my update. If you want to get in touch, you can visit my website pfforphds.com or find me on Twitter at @pfforphds.

Dr. Caitlin Faas

03:27 Caitlin: Hi there listeners. My name is Dr. Caitlin Faas and I was on episode seven of season one, October of 2018. A lot has changed for me since then. I left my position as a faculty member. I was tenure track at the time earned tenure, became a department chair and then left the position at the end of 2020 to work for myself full time as a certified life coach, I made that decision officially in February of 2020, right before COVID hit. And I knew it was time to take the leap. And then the universe sent me all the tests, my husband being laid off and COVID and so many other things, but I still trusted and knew it was time to leave. And I’m proud to say this year, I’ve earned over a hundred thousand dollars and we paid off all of our debt and all my concerns and worries that I managed along the way are what made it possible for me to be ending the year of 2020 successfully.

04:33 Caitlin: We also, in that time adopted our teenage daughter out of foster care and something I wish I could tell myself, looking back in 2018, as I had an idea that I might want to leave academia and continue to grow my business was I just wish I could tell myself not to stress as much about the debt we had. I took it a little too seriously. It all worked out as it was supposed to, and I didn’t have to hustle and grind my way there. I definitely followed a budget and Dave Ramsey’s plan, but the biggest thing was money mindset and law of attraction, setting those goals for myself and continuing to trust the flow and surrender to the process. That’s what made the difference. So best of luck as you hear my update and go about your own path with Emily.

Nicholas Giangreco

07:13 Nicholas: Hi, this is Nicholas Giangreco from season one, episode 10. I am a systems biology PhD student at Columbia Medical Center. I’ve kept a budget throughout my studies and living in New York City, logging in my expenses and savings. First switching to a rainy day fund goal, then a more moving fund/cushion goal, and now recently, been able to transition to more heavily into a retirement saving, and that’s because having the budget has helped me be more conscious of my spending and saving decisions over time. That would be my advice for new graduate students — keep a budget. I use Google sheets. Whatever makes you conscious of your decisions and helps you stick with a goal that you have in mind is really important throughout your graduate career. As well as taking advantage of opportunities, such as tutoring, teaching, and internship. They can help you get to your goals and become more financially stable. Hopefully that helps out people and enjoy the rest of your listening.

Bailey Poland

08:51 Bailey: Hi, my name is Bailey Poland, and you can find me at Patreon.com/BaileyPoland. I was originally on season one, episode 12. I’m now a fourth year PhD candidate in rhetoric and writing studies. And I’m about a chapter and a half away from being done writing my dissertation. I’m currently on the job market, both for academic and industry jobs, especially given the way the COVID-19 pandemic has affected the academic job market. In the original episode, Emily and I talked a lot about side hustling, so I wanted to give a little bit of an update about that. While I do still have my Patreon, my other side gigs have changed a lot and this year I’m on an assistantship that allows me to focus exclusively on my dissertation, so that’s my main priority right now. But in the past couple of years, I’ve worked as a virtual social media assistant for a women-focused finance organization called city girl savings. I took on some extra work in my department as a digital development and promotional outreach assistant, and I’ve done various freelance jobs in writing and editing, especially professional writing and editing, as I’ve had the opportunity to work on those. So despite my stipend only going up a little bit across the time that I’ve been in the program, I’ve managed to hit a six figure net worth over the past couple of years by keeping my expenses low, doing that extra paid work and investing.

10:14 Bailey: And on that note, my best financial advice for another early career PhD is to find a way to save and ideally invest as early as you possibly can, even if it’s just to get into the habit of having some money set aside or having an automatic transfer of some kind of set up. Even if you’re still paying off other debt, even if it’s only a little bit of money here and there, that really, really adds up, especially over the long-term. Time is a huge factor in creating financial security for yourself and the earlier that you can build those foundational habits, the better off you’ll be.

Dr. Lauri (Lutes) Reinhold

10:51 Lauri: Hi, my name is Lauri Reinhold, formerly Lutes, and I was on season two episode one. My main updates are to share that I completed my PhD and amidst the pandemic, which was quite an achievement for me. And I now have a postdoc position. In my episode, I spoke a lot about the ways I took advantage of resources in my area to overcome some of the challenges of being a single mother and a graduate student. One of the goals later on in graduate school that I looked into was home ownership. And I wanted to share this with you because had I looked into it sooner, I probably would have benefited a little bit more. I am settling into a higher cost of living area, especially in comparison to where I grew up in the Midwest. And looking into home buying is quite intimidating due to the average cost of a home. I found in my state in Oregon, there’s a program called an individual development account or an IDA, and this is a three to one matching program where I can contribute $2,000 and walk away with $8,000 that I can use for a variety of different expenses — educational buying a car retirement. However, I was most interested in using these funds for a down payment on a home. Unfortunately since I looked into this later in my career and my admittance into this program was delayed due to the pandemic and this perfect storm of things occurred, my current income puts me just over the threshold to qualify for this program, so I’m no longer able to participate. However, I am happy to report that I have learned a lot about the home buying process along the way, and that I am still actively pursuing this long-term goal. My advice to you is if you have these financial goals, I encourage you to see what’s available in your state and take advantage of these programs sooner than later, so that you can start saving. And perhaps you might be more likely to meet some income thresholds and take advantage of some of these opportunities to get ahead.

Dr. Gary McDowell

12:54 Gary: Hi, I’m Gary McDowell and I work as a consultant on early career researchers and affecting change for and with them. I’m now based at Lightoller LLC, but you may have heard from me on season two, episode three, when I was the executive director of the nonprofit Future of Research. I’m doing almost exactly the same kind of work and have the same motivations to work on behalf of the interests of early career researchers. Now I’m just in a different business model. I’m also now more permanently settled in Chicago, Illinois. I spoke about our effort on postdoc salaries with you before, and I’m still working on that in my spare time. I’m currently embarking on a new set of data requests from universities, and I hope to have five years of data to look at and share with you all in the not too distant future.

13:38 Gary: But I think the best advice that I can give to you at the moment is that you should be very proactive in bringing up the topic of salaries when talking with current or potential supervisors in an academic setting. I mentioned this for a couple of reasons. Firstly, my sense is that compared to when I started working on salaries nearly five years ago, it has become much more acceptable to talk about money, hopefully in no small part because of the efforts of people like myself, constantly putting this up as an issue publicly with academics. This is particularly true, I think, in the present situation with the COVID-19 pandemic and the increased financial burdens that that’s placing on early career researchers. I think it’s important that you try, if you can, to advocate for yourself.

14:23 Gary: Secondly, I always advise that you bring this up with a potential supervisor because how they react can tell you a lot too. Even if you don’t get a raise in the salary offer from the discussion, if they react with, “why would I pay you more?” I think you should probably question generally whether this is the person you actually want to work for versus someone who might respond that they can’t give you a raise, but then talks about how that could be explored through fellowship applications or talking to the department chair, or just generally seems willing to about it. If you don’t feel able to advocate for yourself, maybe you have a precarious visa situation, for example, find ways of advocating with others through a union or association. There’s strength in numbers and decades of recommendations from blue ribbon panels that you should be paid more. So make sure you’re advocating for your worth because you are worth it. Feel free to contact me. You can do so through my website, lightoller.org or emailing [email protected]. Or you can always contact me on Twitter at @GaryMcDowellPhD, or find me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening.

Maya Gosztyla

15:33 Maya: Hi guys, this is Maya Gosztyla from season two, episode four of the podcast, which came out in February of 2019. And that episode was about how during my postbac fellowship at the NIH, I was able to save about 30% of my income despite having a fairly low salary of only around $30,000 a year. We also talked about how I use science communication as a side hustle to earn a bit more money on top of that. It’s been almost two years now, about a year and a half since that was published and a lot has changed since then. I got married to my then fiance and we had a very simple wedding. We just eloped at the cherry blossom festival in DC and spent some money on a two week honeymoon abroad, which was lovely. I also started grad school at the University of California, San Diego, which is also lovely. I love it here.

16:25 Maya: A lot of the things that I talked about in that episode have continued. I still live very simply. I don’t eat out very much and I try to budget very carefully. But of course, 2020 had a lot of things that made it much harder to live the way I had last year. In grad school, I have a pretty similar stipend as I did as a fellow and I also have a fairly similar cost of living, but the difference is now of course it’s me and my husband, not just me living by myself since we were long distance during my fellowship. As a result of COVID, like so many other people, my husband does not have a job right now so we’re basically both living on my grad school stipend. As a result of that, I’m no longer able to save 30% of my income. Unfortunately, we pretty much just break even with the stipend alone. However, I have continued doing my little side comm side hustle, and all of that is kind of on top of my stipend just goes into savings. So that just gives us a little extra buffer to continue saving a little bit toward our goals as much as we can. And having that emergency savings that I did build up during that fellowship was super helpful. It gives us a lot more peace of mind in case we have any major expenses, like when we just had to get some car repairs done, and having to buy health insurance from my husband when he aged out of his parents’ insurance. We were able to do that without much problems. So that’s been really helpful to have that little cushion.

17:45 Maya: Our plans for the future are basically when my husband does get a job, and hopefully this pandemic ends, people can go back to work, we’re going to continue to live on my stipen as much as possible and then try to use anything that he makes to just work on paying down student loans, and eventually saving toward retirement. My advice for students would be definitely save up some emergency savings before grad school, if you can. And if you’re living with a partner, try to live on one income, if you can. I’d be happy to talk to people who are in a similar financial situation and gives some advice, so you can feel free to reach out to me on Twitter. My username is @alzscience on Twitter. Good luck to everybody.

Dr. Jill Hoffman

18:25 Jill: Hi, this is Jill Hoffman from Toddler on the Tenure Track. I was on season three, episode four, where I talked about public service loan forgiveness, as well as the decision that my husband and I made to have him become a stay at home dad. Career-wise, I’m still on my tenure track position and I’m on track to submit my tenure package in October of 2021. Also in September of 2020, my husband started a part-time position that he does from home. So he’s still doing the bulk of the childcare, but we’re switching off with childcare responsibilities when our work hours overlap. Financially, given the pause on student loan interest that’s happened as a result of the pandemic we’ve put our more aggressive student loan payments on hold for now. I still have a significant amount left on my loans and I’m still on the public service loan forgiveness program. And with my husband’s loans we’re waiting to see what happens when the new administration takes office before we start back up with our focus on paying those off.

19:24 Jill: Personally, we’ve had some major ups and downs since I was in the podcast and are currently trying to work out the logistics of a move back East to be closer to family. We’re currently in the Pacific Northwest. Sadly, my dad passed away in late 2019, and we had some other family emergencies that really made us reconsider the distance from family at this point in our lives. And financially, the money associated with traveling back and forth isn’t sustainable for us at our current income level. on a happy note, we’re expecting our second child in may of 2021, so that’s also playing a role in our interest to at least be an easy driving distance to family. You can find more about what I’ve been up to toddleronthetenuretrack.com.

Crista Wathen

20:08 Crista: Hi everyone. This is Crista Wathen from Richful Thinker. Last time you heard from me was season three, episode seven, where I spoke about the benefits of completing your education abroad and how I am using my PhD salary and Swedish kroner to pay down my US student loan debt. The biggest update since the interview that I have for you is I have finally reached positive net worth after being negative for so many years. I was also asked what was the best financial advice that I can give you, but that has changed in the meantime, and it is increase your savings rate so you can let that. You do have to decide the vehicle in which you want to place it in, but you have to let that grow. Now you can follow my journey as an American abroad. You can go to my blog, richfulthinker.com or my Instagram account, which is @richfulthinkerblog. Thank you guys so much for listening and I hope to speak to you soon.

Dr. Gov Worker

21:12 Gov Worker: Hi, this is Dr. Gov Worker and I appeared on season three, episodes eight and nine. Emily and I talked about the FIRE movement and the FIRE movement stands for financial independence and early retirement. Since that time I’m still on a path towards early retirement and financial independence. And in fact, with the large market gains that have been going on since the time we recorded, I’m further ahead than I thought it would be towards achieving financial independence. Once I reach financial independence, I’m still planning on working right now, but it’s nice to know that if something were to happen, I’d never need to work again, but I’m enjoying my job right now too much to leave.

21:58 Gov Worker: And I know I gave advice on the podcast, but if I had more advice, it would be really understand your employee handbook. Or if you work for a university, the university rules, or the federal government rules. Whatever your workplace is, understand all the rules about your employment, because sometimes you might find a benefit buried somewhere deep in an employee handbook that you don’t know about. And I think a lot of what I am really passionate about right now is educating people on how to get the most benefits out of their jobs that they’re they’re already at. I definitely recommend doing that. And if you want to get in touch with me, I’m on Twitter. You can tweet at me it’s @govworkerfi, and I’d love to hear from you. I love hearing from my readers. I also have a blog governmentworkerfi.com, but if you just tweet me, you can get to my blog.

Dr. Toyin Alli

22:59 Toyin: Hi, this is Toyin Alli from The Academic Society. I was on season three, episode 12 of the podcast where I shared how grad students can find the perfect side hustle while working on their degree. Since recording my episode, my job hasn’t changed much besides doing it remotely. I’m still a lecturer at the University of Georgia, and I’m up for promotion this year. My business, The Academic Society has grown so much since the episode. My YouTube channel has grown to almost 6,000 subscribers and my time management programs and courses are helping so many grad students. I’ve also revamped my signature grad school prep course for new grad students. It’s the resource for new grad students. Inside of my program I help recently accepted in first year grad students uncover grad school secrets by learning about the culture of grad school. I help them transform their mindset from an undergraduate mindset to a grad school mindset. I help them up level their productivity so that they can actually get their work done, and master time management so they can have time for themselves without worrying about how grad school works. I help grad students become more prepared and understand what grad school is all about so they don’t feel anxious about starting. I’m so happy that my business is in a place that allows me to not depend solely on my income as a university lecture. This summer, I was able to buy my first home, a condo in a pandemic. I’m paying off my student loans from undergrad, and I’m excited about building wealth from my side hustle.

24:41 Toyin: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to my update and catching up with me. You can find me on my website, theacademicsociety.com on YouTube, my channel is called The Academic Society with Toyin Alli. You can also follow me on Instagram @theacademicsociety_, and you can join my Facebook group for grad students, it’s called The Academic Society for Grad Students. Across all platforms, I talk about time management and productivity, but my overall mission is to show grad students and academics that you can live a fulfilled life and be successful in academia at the same time.

Follow-up from Emily

25:23 Emily: Hey, it’s Emily again, adding onto the last update. After Toyin and I got back in touch for this update episode, she invited me to guest lecture for Grad School Prep, the course you just heard about. The recording of the workshop I gave, “Set yourself up for financial success in graduate school” now lives inside Grad School Prep. If you are a prospective or first year grad student, I highly recommend joining Toyin’s course. In hindsight, I recognize how desperately I needed the skills and information in Grad School Prep when I started my PhD. My contribution lets you in on the financial secrets of grad school, explains the financial mindset you should adopt, and walks you through the financial steps you should take during your application year and first year of grad school. Toyin gave a free masterclass on what to expect from your first semester in grad school and how grad school prep can help you with the transition, including a description of my workshop. You can sign up for the free masterclass theacademicsociety.com/Emily.

26:28 Emily: Toyin’s interview was the last one in season three so we are finished with this update episode. I hope to devote an episode at the end of each calendar year to updates from previous guests. I hope you have a restful and joyful holiday season, despite the year we’ve had. We’ll be back with a new episode on Monday, January 4th, 2021.

Outtro

26:51 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How to Solve the Problem of Irregular Expenses

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In this episode, Emily tells the story of starting to use the strategy that completely revolutionized her budget when she was a grad student. She teaches this strategy in almost all of the seminars she gives for universities, and it never fails to generate a high level of interest and follow-up questions. The strategy is called targeted savings, and it is a solution to the problem of irregular expenses. Irregular expenses are any expenses that occur less frequently than monthly that are difficult to pay for in the moment, such as flights, car repairs, electronics, gifts, etc. Irregular expenses don’t pose a problem for every budget, but they commonly do for lower earners like grad students. Targeted savings is a particular method for predicting and saving up in advance for these irregular expenses. If you listen through this episode and are motivated to implement a system of targeted savings, you are invited to join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community to access a full course on targeted savings, including a custom spreadsheet, and the December 2020 Challenge to create or update their targeted savings for 2021.

Links Mentioned

irregular expenses targeted savings

Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts.

This is Season 7, Episode 15, and today I don’t have a guest but rather am going to tell you about the strategy that completely revolutionized my budget when I was a grad student. I teach this strategy in almost all of the seminars I give for universities, and it never fails to generate a high level of interest and follow-up questions.

The strategy is called targeted savings, and it is a solution to the problem of irregular expenses. Irregular expenses are any expenses that occur less frequently than monthly that are difficult to pay for in the moment, such as flights, car repairs, electronics, gifts, etc. Irregular expenses don’t pose a problem for every budget, but they commonly do for lower earners like grad students. Targeted savings is a particular method for predicting and saving up in advance for these irregular expenses.

If you listen through this episode and are motivated to implement a system of targeted savings, I invite you to join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community.

I recently added a full course on targeted savings, including a custom spreadsheet, and in December 2020 I’m running a Challenge for the Community for all participants to create or update their targeted savings for 2021. If you want to take the course and/or participate in the Challenge, join the Community at PFforPhDs.com/targeted/.

Without further ado, here’s my episode, on how to solve the problem of irregular expenses.

Definition of Irregular Expense

I’d like to first expand on the definition of irregular expenses and explain why they are such a problem for early-career PhDs in particular.

Irregular expenses are expenses that occur less frequently than monthly, so they don’t really have a spot in a traditional monthly budget the way rent, utilities, groceries, etc. do. Yet, these expenses are predictable, at least in a general sense. You probably have some irregular expenses that occur in a fixed amount at a reliable point in the year, such as an insurance premium or a fee for your university. Other irregular expenses might not have a precise amount or date assigned to them, but it’s fairly certain they’ll crop up sometime, such as purchasing clothes or shoes.

I believe that irregular expenses cause more trouble for early-career PhDs than for our peers who have Real Jobs in their 20s and 30s for two reasons.

First, graduate students and sometimes postdocs have relatively low incomes. For someone whose income far exceeds their fixed expenses, irregular expenses don’t pose much of an issue. They can pay for the expense in the month it arises by cutting back slightly in some variable spending areas of the budget or deferring some spending. Maybe they save a little less or aren’t able to pay off as much debt as usual. But what if the irregular expense rivals or exceeds the portion of your income that doesn’t have to go to fixed expenses? That is fairly common situation for graduate students.

Second, graduate students and sometimes postdocs have more irregular expenses because they are graduate students or postdocs. PhDs often move away from loved ones and therefore incur travel expenses to visit them. Universities often charge fees that have to be paid once per year or term instead of being prorated to be taken out of each paycheck. If income tax on fellowships is not withheld by the university, that creates another irregular expense for the fellow. Research and conference expenses, whether reimbursed or not, are another type of irregular expense. These are all in addition to the irregular expenses that anyone might have.

Common Solutions for Irregular Expenses

Now that we’ve established what irregular expenses are, let’s discuss the various ways people handle them.

I mentioned one solution already, which is simply to cut back in other spending areas or savings goals in the short term so that you can pay for the irregular expense fully in the month that it arises. This solution pairs really well with keeping what I call a unique monthly budget, which is to write a unique budget for every single month that accounts for one-off expenses. However, this is not a viable solution, like I just outlined, if your income does not far exceed your monthly necessary and/or fixed expenses.

Probably the most common solution is to put the expense on a credit card to buy some time. By floating the charge on a credit card until the due date, you can spread the expense out over about two months and therefore have a better chance of paying for it using the prior strategy. For a larger expense, you might even end up carrying a balance for several months to spread out the repayment even more. Using credit cards in this way is not ideal, because you are obligating your future income to past purchases that should be paid for with past income, plus if you do carry a balance you’ll be charged interest.

The final common solution for irregular expenses is to have some cash savings available that you can draw from when an irregular expense arises. Then, you can replace the savings over time. One of the subtle advantages to this solution is that you will almost certainly consider the irregular expense more carefully and look for alternatives if you are spending cash vs. using debt. You might end up choosing not to incur the irregular expense at that time or shopping around for a better value. Plus, of course, there are no interest charges, and you can handle larger expenses than if you were only using the first strategy.

Targeted savings, the strategy I’m teaching you in this episode, is a more detailed version of this third strategy that involves advance planning as well as advance saving.

How I Started Using Targeted Savings

I first noticed my need for an intentional solution to this problem of irregular expenses about two years into my PhD.
Prior to that point, I had used all three of the solutions I just mentioned to handle irregular expenses.

When I was living paycheck to paycheck with no cash savings and an irregular expense came up, I would cut back as much as I could in my discretionary variable spending in that month to pay for it.
On an occasion or two, I still wasn’t able to swing the expense, so I put the expense on a credit card to float it into the next month, meaning the frantic cutting back on expenses lasted even longer. This was super difficult and unpleasant because on a stipend there’s not exactly a lot of fat in the first place.

Later, I did have a small general savings account, which I could dip into and then refill to pay for the irregular expense.

What happened after my second year of grad school is that I got married to another grad student, Kyle. We burned through almost all of our cash savings paying for our rings, honeymoon, and our portion of the wedding expenses. When we got back from our honeymoon and started combining our finances and setting up a joint budget, we realized that we only had $1,200 remaining in cash savings, which I felt obligated to call our emergency fund. So paying for irregular expenses out of existing savings was no longer an option.

It turned out that the summer we got married was a wedding boom among our friends. In fact, and I’m sure this will sound familiar to many of you, that summer kicked off a period of several years in our mid-twenties in which we were invited to about half a dozen weddings each year, most of them requiring us to travel.

Now, I love attending weddings. I very much wanted to share the joy of every couple who invited us to their wedding as we had so recently shared our joy. But we had no savings to help make that happen, and I had become savvy enough about personal finance to know I shouldn’t use a credit card if I couldn’t pay off the charge right away.

In that particular summer, we ended up declining a couple of the wedding invitations and cash flowing the irregular expenses associated with the weddings we did attend. We took a hard look at our new joint budget and found ways to reduce our spending on a monthly basis so we could handle the irregular expenses that we did incur.

As we financially caught our breath at the end of that summer, I resolved that I did not want to go through that again. I assumed—correctly—that we would have another big wedding season the next summer, and I didn’t want to have to scramble to pay for the travel and gifts and attire and everything, and I didn’t want to have to turn down invitations for financial reasons.
I had heard of this strategy known as targeted savings or sinking funds, so Kyle and I agreed to start saving up right then for the wedding guest-related expenses we assumed would come our way in fewer than 12 months. We didn’t know all the details at that moment of what the expenses would be and when they would occur, but it was a reasonable assumption that they would occur. We opened a new savings account, called it “Travel and Wedding Gifts,” and set up an autodraft to contribute money to it every month. The frugal measures we had put in place over the past few months helped us to establish that savings rate. The next year, when we did incur those expenses, we drew from that account to pay for them, and we didn’t have any of the stress and scramble associated with that spending that we did the year before.

General Solution

This is the basic concept of targeted savings. You anticipate an irregular expense, and you do your best to predict the amount and timing of that expense. Then, you establish a savings rate into a dedicated account that will sum to that amount by that time. It’s a really simple idea, though it can be tricky to implement, especially when you endeavor to capture and prepare for all of your irregular expenses, as I soon did.

Expanding the Solution

We didn’t stop with just wedding guest-related expenses. Over the course of the next few months, other types of irregular expenses arose. In September, Kyle and I paid up front for our two yearly university parking permits. In October, we purchased a season ticket to the Duke men’s basketball home games—Go Devils!—and two season tickets to the Broadway musicals series at our local theater. In November, we purchased cross-country flights to see our family over winter break.

We decided to apply our new system to these other expense categories, plus even more. Each time we cash flowed one of these irregular expenses by cutting back our other spending, we set up a new savings account and autodraft to fund that purchase for the following year.

It was not trivial to both pay for these irregular expenses out of cash flow and start saving up for the next year, but we managed it through putting in place frugal strategies that we hadn’t tried before. We canceled cable TV, stopped eating out for convenience, switched where we shopped for groceries, line dried our clothes, pursued credit card rewards, and more.
By the time a full year had passed, we had encountered or thought of every irregular expense in our lives at that time. We had set up separate savings accounts with our bank, and each one had a monthly autodraft to fund it.
Here are the names of our six targeted savings accounts and their savings rates from that time:

  • Appearance $35/mo
  • Cars $185/mo
  • Community Supported Agriculture $35/mo
  • Entertainment $60/mo
  • Medical/Dental/Vision $70/mo
  • Travel and Gifts $390/mo

Key Insight

This system worked very, very well for us, and it works well for many people I’ve spoken with about it. Targeted savings turns large, irregular expenses into small, fixed expenses that are easier to write into a budget. An effective monthly budget is a cornerstone personal finance strategy and is instrumental in helping you reach just about any financial goal, but a budget cannot be effective if it is continually derailed by irregular expenses.
Predicting and preparing for irregular expenses, whether through savings or a cash flow plan, is so important that I made it its own step in the Financial Framework I developed for PhDs, right after paying off high-priority debt and before investing for retirement.

The value of the strategy is not only in predicting and preparing for irregular expenses, although that alone would be reason enough to use it. What I’ve learned from using this strategy is that it helps you compare regular and irregular expenses head-to-head, which is really difficult to do otherwise.

In the absence of a system for predicting and preparing for irregular expenses, you’re flying by the seat of your pants with every irregular expense or spending opportunity that arises. You have to make a quick decision about whether or not you will spend and how your budget will accommodate that spending. In that moment, there is nearly always intense pressure to spend, either internal or external.

Implementing targeted savings has you take a bird’s-eye view of your spending over the course of a year, both regular and irregular. By considering spending decisions well before they actually arise, you take a lot of the pressure off the decision. By converting one-time expenses to expenses that you save for every month, you can more easily answer the question, “Would I rather spend $120 on this irregular expense or $10 per month on this regular expense?”

The trade-off was always there, but targeted savings makes it easier to make an optimal decision. Sometimes, you really rather would spend the $10 per month on a regular expense, so you can make a clear-headed decision to decline the $120 irregular expense. Targeted savings help you organize your spending so that it brings you the maximum possible satisfaction over the course of a year.

Our Targeted Savings Accounts Today

Kyle and I used targeted savings throughout the rest of grad school, and it helped us to spend on travel, car repairs, a DSLR camera, Christmas gifts for Kyle’s huge extended family, fellowship tax bills, dental checkups, business formal clothes, spontaneous charitable gifts, and much more—without anywhere near as much financial stress as we had experienced before using the system.

In fact, we kept using targeted savings even after we finished grad school and our household income increased. Even though we could cash flow pretty much any irregular expense now, I prefer to try to predict them and weigh how much we should spend in one budget category vs. another. In fact, we stopped using the system for the first year after we moved from Durham to Seattle because that was a major upheaval, but we started up again after that year because it was psychologically much preferable.
Targeted savings is not static, and you should iterate it every year at least to keep up with your shifting priorities and spending opportunities. Wedding guest-related expenses are no longer a big driver in our targeted savings system, and spending on our children now holds a place.

Our targeted savings categories as of early 2020 were:

  • Appearance
  • Cars
  • Childcare
  • Electronics
  • Entertainment
  • Gifts
  • Housewares
  • Life Insurance Premiums
  • Medical/Dental/Vision Copays and Coinsurance
  • Miscellaneous Kid Expenses
  • Travel

Course on Targeted Savings

I’ve thoroughly explored targeted savings through reflecting on my practice, talking with other PhDs about theirs, and reading how other personal finance experts use it. I’ve distilled the insights I’ve gained into my new course, Targeted Savings: The Solution for Irregular Expenses.
The course delves deeply into how to design and implement a system of targeted savings so that it captures all your problematic irregular expenses.
The course answers or helps you find your own answers to:

  • What kind of account or accounts should I keep my targeted savings in?
  • Do I need to switch banks to facilitate this practice?
  • How do I predict my expenses for the upcoming year?
  • Should I prepare for my irregular expenses individually or as groups?
  • Should I dedicate existing general savings to targeted savings and if so how?
  • How do I calculate the savings rates?
  • What do I do if an expense pops up that I didn’t predict?
  • Should my emergency fund be separate from my targeted savings?
  • How do I tell if an expense should be covered by my emergency fund or targeted savings?

and, the one that I have to answer for myself every single time I update my system:

  • What should I do if my calculated targeted savings rates are too high to fit into my monthly budget?

If you’re excited by the idea of targeted savings but not sure how to really get it going, please consider joining the Personal Finance for PhDs Community to access the course and December 2020’s Community Challenge. The Challenge is to create or update your system of targeted savings to be ready to go in January 2021. I know I personally need this update as our 2020 spending did not go at all as we had expected. As you go through the course and work on your system, you can report your progress and/or ask for help from me and the other Community members in the forum threads dedicated to the Challenge. The Challenge exists to keep you accountable to your goal of creating targeted savings and to assist you in overcoming any speed bumps you encounter. Even if you’re listening to this later on, as a Community member you’re always welcome to participate in past Challenges, and I’ll still provide support.

You can learn more about Targeted Savings: The Solution for Irregular Expenses and join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.com/targeted/. I actually have made available on that page the first module of the course to give you a flavor of the content, and that module includes a list of two dozen common categories of irregular expenses for early-career PhDs.

Thank you so much for joining me for this episode! I highly recommend you test out the strategy of targeted savings in your own budget. It is a game-changer.

How to Set Yourself Up for a Successful Career and Financial Life Post-PhD

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jennifer Polk, a career coach specializing in PhDs whose brand is From PhD to Life. Emily and Jen explore the damage that graduate school and academia often does to PhDs’ financial lives, in terms of both dollars and money mindset. They answer the question, “What can a graduate student or PhD do to mitigate academia’s financial damage?” from both a financial and career perspective, starting in grad school and extending several years post-PhD. Jen concludes the interview with an incredible insight that can only be gained with years of distance from the PhD.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

post-PhD career and finances

Teaser

00:01 Jen: Woo boy, I think the two-word answer is compound interest. The more that you can put away, even very, very, very small amounts earlier on, make such a huge disproportionate difference over the long term.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 14, and today my guest is Dr. Jennifer Polk, a career coach specializing in PhDs, whose brand is From PhD to Life. Jen and I explore the damage that graduate school and academia often do to PhDs’ financial lives, in terms of both dollars and money mindset. We answer the question, “what can a graduate student or PhD do to mitigate academia’s financial damage?” from both a financial and career perspective, starting in graduate school and extending several years post-PhD. Jen concludes the interview with an incredible insight that can only be gained with years of distance from the PhD. If this episode, and that final insight in particular, get your wheels spinning about what you should be doing right now in your finances, there are several ways you can work with me in the upcoming months to level up your financial life.

01:29 Emily: The Personal Finance for PhDs Community is always open to new members. That’s where you can find my courses on financial goal setting, budgeting, investing, et cetera, plus monthly challenges to participate in a book club and lots of opportunities to ask me questions and engage in discussion with other like-minded graduate students and PhDs. You can find out more at pfforphds.community.

I’m facilitating my brand new half-day workshop, Chart Your Course to Financial Success, twice in the next couple of months. Spend four hours with me and a small group of peers, and you’ll come away with clarity on what your current financial goal should be and how to achieve it, plus super actionable ideas for increasing your income and decreasing your expenses. On December 12, 2020, I’m facilitating the workshop exclusively for funded graduate students. And on January 10th, 2021, it’s exclusively for PhDs. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/chart.

02:34 Emily: Finally, Mark your calendars for the next round of The Wealthy PhD. My two-month group-coaching program that provides guidance and, most importantly, accountability to help you achieve a significant financial goal and set you up for future financial success. Enrollment will open in early January, 2021. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD.

I’m so pleased to be able to offer you all these different avenues of support going into the new year. I hope you will identify one that fits you the best and sign up.

If you’re not quite sure about diving into working with me, please join my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Every Friday, I’ll send you an email detailing, a personal finance concept, an actionable strategy, or an inspirational story. You will receive an incredible amount of value, absolutely for free, through the list.

Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jen Polk.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:28 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jen Polk. You probably know her brand From PhD to Life. She is a career coach specializing in PhDs. So, she has a lot to say to us around this topic. And we’re actually going to be talking about money mindset today and specifically how it affects, you know, your finances, but also your career journey as you’re moving through and beyond the PhD. So, Jen, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast day. It’s wonderful to have you.

03:56 Jen: Yeah. Thank you, Emily. It’s my pleasure. I’m nervous. I’m excited.

04:01 Emily: It’ll be fun. So, please tell the audience just a little bit more about yourself.

04:05 Jen: Sure. So Jen, as Emily says, I work with PhDs figuring out what to do next in their careers and my business is From PhD to Life. That’s fromphdtolife.com. And I’m self-employed and I live in Toronto.

What Academic Culture Teaches Us About Money

04:22 Emily: What does academic culture–in your experience, and also what you’ve observed from your clients–what does academic culture teach us or tell us about money?

04:32 Jen: Yes. Yes. Big question. So, my own personal background is from the humanities, a history PhD. And I think that academia emphasizes, at least my corner of academia, to use that phrase, thinks of money as a bad thing, as kind of a necessary evil. And extremes to which we might take that view do exist out in the wild. There are people out there who will, they can’t possibly live this way every day of their lives, but they will literally say things to me that anybody who has more money is morally inferior or that it is unethical to have, you know, more money than one needs, et cetera. And I think that, yes, one can find that view in academia.

05:29 Emily: Is that defined as more money than they have? Is that the dividing line?

05:34 Jen: Probably, probably, probably. But yeah, I think that thinking about money, talking about money makes you somehow less of a scholar, less of an intellectual. Of course, as we know, the truth is that you can’t actually do scholarly work over the long-term if you are constantly worried about money. It’s difficult. But yeah, there’s definitely a sense that if you’re the person–and I think this is also tied in with aesthetics–if you show up in your humanities department wearing flashy suits and red lipstick and earrings you will be deemed less serious as a scholar, as an intellectual. I think that is related to money mindset as well. It’s really gross. It’s really gross. And yet, of course, you need money.

06:33 Emily: Yeah. I mean, you just said that, of course over the long term, you, you have to have money or else you’re going to have a constant, you know, really it’s a fog in your brain. When you’re constantly stressed about money, when you experience scarcity, and this has been studied, you know, through research, that you literally don’t cognitively function as well as you could, if you did not have that stress in your life. So it’s really actually perplexing to me that we do this. We–academia–does this to graduate students, especially, but also postdocs and also, you know, adjuncts and other faculty members to a degree. Why are we doing this to our youngest, most vulnerable developing scholars? I mean, I know you can’t answer that question, but it’s really perplexing to me that, you know, the system chooses to put this kind of stress on people, and then moralizes it, as you were just saying, says, “Oh, this has been official to you that you don’t have the distractions of money and flashiness and opulence and so forth in your life.” When really what it is is, “No you’re stressing us out, so we can’t even think properly.” And that’s, it’s horrifying, really.

07:37 Jen: Academia is perplexing. I think that’s a good short way of putting it. There’s a lot of work to be done to kind of recognize the truth of one’s situation and think about what you actually do value that is different from what academia implies that you should value.

Money Mindsets in Academia

07:57 Emily: Yeah, I will say from my, you know, my corner of academia and engineering, I did not get the message that money is evil or money is to be shunned. Certainly, we were still under, you know, some money stress depending on how well-funded you are. But definitely from the advisor or the faculty level, we weren’t getting that kind of message. And yet, there were still money mindsets that academia tells even to students in disciplines like that, like all your best time and energy has to be spent on research. Like, you know, you’re not allowed to do XYZ other things in your personal life or earning money on the side. Even if it is not explicitly disallowed, it is certainly frowned upon, because again, you should be spending all your best energy on your research. Things like that. And I think another really sort of damaging thing that happens that probably speaks a little bit more to your experience as a career coach, is that people become anchored at the graduate student salary that they are earning during those years. And so how do they judge what they’re worth in the marketplace after they exit academia when their skills can and should be valued much differently? But how do they, you know, transform their own understanding of the value that they bring? Maybe we can talk more about that.

09:14 Jen: And I also see from scientists that, of course it varies and everyone’s experience is unique, but a lot of worry about getting a quote unquote industry job is morally inferior. And I think part of that is that those jobs pay better than academia. And I think people not only would you make more money, but potentially, I mean, depending, you would have a better life and a better career. Because there’s just lots more variety out there. And there’s a lot more better places that one could be for a lot of people. But I do think that money is part of it as a signal of virtue. Does that make sense, Emily?

09:56 Emily: Yes, I definitely hear what you’re saying. I actually would add onto that. It’s possible that you can have more of an impact on the world in industry than you could in academia, potentially, depending on your field. So, there’s that too. Is your scholarship actually getting out there?

10:11 Jen: Yeah. More money, more impact.

Financially Damaging Money Mindsets

10:14 Emily: We’ve talked about how these money mindsets are not true, damaging in some ways. How is this financially damaging?

10:25 Jen: Whoo boy, the two-word answer is compound interest. The more that you can put away, even very, very, very small amounts, earlier on makes such a huge disproportionate difference over the long-term. There is such a potentially, I mean, again, it really varies, but there is a real opportunity cost to spending time in academia, as a graduate student who is not earning, you know, a whole lot of money. And then, you know, if you do post-docs and then in a lot of disciplines, even a tenure-track professorship, is not going to pay you really enough to live in a lot of cases. And that, you know, life isn’t about comparing oneself to others, but it does put you behind, to use that framing, other people with similar types of education in terms of your financial resources. And of course, if you have debt.

11:20 Emily: I couldn’t agree more. I mean, you know, sometimes I think about there’s been, I don’t know, I think I’ve seen studies from time to time on, “Oh, a PhD is worthwhile like salary-wise because yes, you take this income hit early on, but then later you could make, you know, much more than you would with just a bachelor’s or whatever.” But I really wonder, and I have not done the math on this. I really wonder, well, you’re disagreeing with even that assertion because I’m sure it is very individual, entirely. But even taking that as a given, if you then factor in the opportunity costs for compound interest of paying off your debt, starting to invest for the long-term for retirement, it becomes very dubious.

11:58 Jen: Well, that’s just it. That’s just it. Exactly what you say. Like, even if the salary itself is higher, you’re starting so much later than other people. Like Emily, you and I are both in North America, U.S./Canada context. PhDs take a while. You know, on average, somebody is 30, more than 30, almost 30, right, when they finish, with limited prior work experience. And yeah, it’s not just about annual salary. I’ve seen those studies where everybody’s like, “Look how much more money PhDs make” than people with other degrees. And yes, that is an average. And, you know, it varies a lot. A lot. Not only between disciplines, it does vary a lot between disciplines, but within disciplines, it varies a lot, over gender and race and immigration status, et cetera, subfield. And whether you’re in an academic career track or not, right?

12:54 Jen: There’s a lot of variety there. But yeah, it’s not just about your salary number. It’s not just about that. Yeah. It’s about all of the other things you said. You know, if you’re 10 years later entering the housing market, you might not enter the housing market, et cetera. Anyways, I don’t mean to bemoan and lament, but I do think that it is a message that if anybody listening is considering a PhD or in a PhD program earlier on and doubting whether they should continue, please take this seriously and know that I respect any and all decisions to not apply, not enroll and potentially, you know, if it’s right for you, to not continue in a PhD, because it really might not be the right thing for you for lots of reasons, including financial ones.

Working on the Post-PhD Money Mindset

13:40 Emily: Yes. I would actually love to expand on that. So, we were just saying, okay, to people who have not yet applied for graduate school or are early on in your graduate school journey, take seriously any doubts you may be having and explore other career possibilities for you. For my part, I’m a little less don’t do the PhD, but I’m more on like, why don’t you get some work experience and see what’s out there for you and be able to judge the PhD more, not from, okay, I just got out of undergrad and this is what I want to do, but judge it in a little bit of a more informed context? So let’s say someone is on that path and they’re firm about finishing the PhD, but they’re still early on or, you know, midway through. What can that person be doing to be, you know, both working on their mindset, setting themselves up for financial and career success, following the PhD, what can they do at that stage?

14:31 Jen: I think that, you know, and this comes from my own work, you know, day-to-day career coaching PhDs. I think it is never too early, never too early to think about your career because there is, and I don’t, I think this surprises people, there is so much work that you can do that you really ought to do, but you know, that you can do before you ever apply for a job. And part of that is about money and how much you really need and how much, you know, you 10 years from now is going to want. But I would really, the quicker that you can get into a job and the quicker that you can get into a job and a career that is one that you like, and you can really excel in and you know, it doesn’t sort of match up that you would excel in a career and you make money, but a little bit, right, the quicker you can make that happen for yourself after you graduate, the better.

15:28 Jen: So, do all of the work that you can when you’re still a student. And I just mean the self-assessment, the reflection, like what you were talking about, Emily. Identifying the right, you mentioned identifying the careers that you are interested in going into, right? Like do all of the work ahead of time to identify those, and then start building your network, and, and draw on your network to learn more about those career paths, to get really specific about the types of work that you could do. To have a kind of a draft resume in place for various different kinds of roles that you might apply for. Again, long before you ever get to the point of application. So that six months, four months before graduation, before you’re kind of ready to work, you can hit the ground running.

16:13 Emily: You mentioned like doing self-assessments and so forth. I did a lot of that stuff and it was provided by the career center at my university. I wouldn’t say I showed up at every event, but I was definitely like a regular frequent flyer at, you know, what they had going on. And I was able to do like, yeah, some of the various self-assessments and that was wonderful.

Career Exploration: Know Thyself

16:30 Emily: So, there’s resources that may be available to graduate students through their career centers. There’s your website of course, From PhD to life. Do you know, would you recommend any other resources outside of the university context, for people to help in this like career exploration phase?

16:46 Jen: Yeah. I think at this point, anything can be useful. And so, you know, I think it can sound really simple, simplistic but even just sitting down and making a list of the things that you actually truly value and that are really important to you, that there’s real power in that. Taking a few minutes and just doing a brain dump, like, okay, what do I actually value in having, and write it down. Make a visual of it and make a graphic that you stick on your computer desktop. I mean, whatever it is so that you can keep reminding yourself when academic culture is swirling around you, which can be, I’m exaggerating, but it can be a bit of a totalizing culture and impose values and priorities on you that, you know, can kind of make things messy, just to remind yourself of what you truly value.

17:42 Jen: When I say anything can be useful at this point, I mean, sure do the Myers-Briggs. Scientifically dubious, doesn’t matter, because point is to give you new language, like literal words, and new perspectives, different perspectives on the types of skills and strengths that you have. So, any kind of like skill assessment, strengths test, value survey, anything like that, you can find online. Any of those that can be really kind of interesting to get you thinking about yourself in a different way. And then make your own lists. Some people like spreadsheets. And take advantage of any and all assessments that, yeah, you get from your career center on campus if that’s available to you. This process, I’m talking about it like it’s a mess, and that’s because it is a mess. So, it’s fine. And the other thing I would say is that this is not a process of identifying your one true right job.

Do Not Get Stuck on the “Dream Job”

18:42 Jen: Your dream job. No, no. Wipe that from your mind. That’s not a thing. A lot of jobs out there are broadly similar. And you, whatever your PhD discipline, whatever your background, you can do a lot of them. So they’re broadly similar and you can do a lot of them. And so what becomes important is not that particular job title, but more where in the world do you want to live? What kind of lifestyle do you want to have? What the vibe of the office that you want to be in? What kinds of like actual work do you want to do every day? Who do you want to hang out with? What kind of impact do you want to make? So all of those kinds of questions that, like job title is not even that relevant. At a certain point, you’re going to try and identify some so that you can find jobs to apply to. And so that your network can help you out by making suggestions. But yeah, it’s a mess. Embrace the mess and know yourself.

19:37 Emily: At that stage. Because you can be really open to a lot of different things, like you were saying. We’re not at all trying to like narrow things down, right? It’s about sort of broadening. So, I’m also thinking about, for an early-stage graduate student, mid-stage graduate student, how to mitigate this financial damage that we were talking about. And so very briefly, I just want to say, as you said earlier, compound interest. So if you are at a stage in your finances, when you’re able to save, get an emergency fund together, but after that start tackling your debt, start investing if that’s where you are. And I of course talk about that many, many other interviews and so forth. So people can find a lot more resources. But as you said earlier, the early you get started, small amounts of money, perfectly fine. It’s still going to make a difference.

The Value of Outside Work Experiences

20:18 Emily: So don’t dismiss just because you’re a graduate student, “Oh, I can only save 50 bucks a month or I can only save a hundred bucks a month.” That’s amazing. That would be a lot of money if you actually got that invested. So don’t dismiss that while you’re, you know, doing all this other career stuff. I also want to bring up outside work experience. You know, you mentioned earlier, like, you know, think about your network and so forth, and you can do that without working. You can expand your network. But you know, for some PhD students, it is possible to do internships or to have some kind of side hustle, that’s going to ultimately help you in your later job. Can you speak to that a little bit?

20:53 Jen: Yeah. And I take your point, Emily, that you said for some they can have, because yes, acknowledgement that, you know, it does depend on visa status and the contract, et cetera, et cetera. But, so in response to a Tweet I sent earlier this morning, somebody, I think she’s a humanities PhD student, said that in her program, when she was doing her PhD, she was reflecting on one of her colleagues had this like prestigious grant. So she didn’t have to have a job on campus to pay the rent. Because she had the prestigious grant. And the person who wrote the tweet was saying, you know, I didn’t have that, but instead I worked outside of academia and that, you know, the implication here being that, that gave me the same amount of money. And the vibe she got, not only the vibe, the actual literal the message she got from her professors in the department was that the fellowship was of greater value.

21:46 Jen: Even though from our perspective now, as people out in the world, you know, working jobs, we know that actually in some ways having actual work experience is more valuable. And that is really, really, really important and can’t be undervalued. This is not, you know, to ask students to do more and more and more work. But just to say that when you are making decisions about what to do in your kind of free time, quote unquote, you know, where you have a choice about whether to do this and this and this, just to pause and say, “Well, the, the thing that I think that I should do is adjunct one more course.” Well, hold up, just think to yourself, what is the value of adjuncting a course versus stepping up your side hustle or getting a job outside campus, even just in retail? I mean, it’s not obvious from where I sit that adjuncting a course is the right move. Whereas that can be like just a totally obvious thing according to academics, but no no no. I mean, it really depends. So, I would, you know, use your critical thinking skills and question the things that seem obvious to you.

Commercial

23:00 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. You are invited to my brand new half-day workshop, Chart Your Course to Financial Success. The central question this workshop will help you answer is what should my singular financial goal be right now and how should I best pursue it? I’ll teach you my eight-step financial framework that explains when you should save versus pay off debt versus invest. And we’ll explore many, many strategies to increase your income and or decrease your expenses. I will facilitate the workshop exclusively for funded graduate students on Saturday, December 12th, 2020, and exclusively for PhDs on Sunday, January 10th, 2021. You can learn more and sign up at pfforphds.com/chart. That’s P F F O R P H D s.com/ C H A R T. The deadline to register for the December 12th workshop is Wednesday, December 9th. So, don’t delay. There are discounts currently available for both workshops and registration is limited. Now, back to the interview.

Pay Attention to Your Base Salary

24:10 Emily: Let’s now talk about someone who’s finishing up about to finish up the PhD, and maybe about to finish up a postdoc, if that’s the choice that you made following the PhD. And you want to get a real job and it’s not going to be in academia. So, what can a person who’s reached that stage do, again, to mitigate the damage that the mindsets and the financial damage that academia has caused?

24:31 Jen: It’s really tricky this because you know, some people ask, how do I know when to take this job now, or to take the risk of turning it down in hopes that I would get a higher offer six months from now? So, you know, I think it’s not obvious what the answer is and it will highly depend on the individual person. But one thing for sure to think about is, when you’re ready to accept and negotiate a job offer, right? Accept and negotiate, right?

25:02 Jen: Both of those together. That your base salary is a really important consideration. It’s not the only thing up for negotiation. It’s not the only thing to discuss. But that a one time payout, like a bonus, like a signing bonus of five grand, for example, that seems great in the moment and sure you could invest that, but over the long-term, it’s probably better for you to have like $500 extra on your base salary, something like that. I mean, I can’t do the math immediately, but I think tending to base salary is really important.

Do Not Underestimate the Value of Your Network

25:37 Emily: To pick up where we left off with the career exploration, exploration of yourself. Now this person is ready to narrow things down and apply for some jobs. So, what do they do at that stage?

25:53 Jen: Yeah. So, I think don’t underestimate the value of your network. And before people are like, “Hold up, Jen, I don’t have a network.” No, you have a network, you have a network and you know people, and the people that know you also know other people. And, it can depend, but your academic network, don’t discount them. Even if you’re applying for non-academic jobs. Again, it can depend. But, I mean, I have a client now who is a research associate, a post-doc, and he was nervous about talking to his PI about the fact that he’s, you know, he’s on the job market. And he had the conversation and the PI was very supportive. And then the PI sent a few emails. My client got some interviews literally the next week and, you know, might have a job offer like within like a month. And so don’t discount the value that your network can come through for you.

26:54 Jen: And I know in my work with PhDs, with my own clients, but also all of the research that I’ve done over the years that you talking with people, and that’s all I mean when I say you should network, is you should interact actively with people in your field, with other professionals, quote, unquote. Just actively interact with people, that pays off enormously. And if you don’t do that, it’s going to be so, so, so, so, so much harder. At this stage, unless you have really particular technical skills, and I would wager that a huge number of PhDs don’t–and that’s not a criticism, that’s not a criticism–but if you don’t have these like really narrow, really specific, really rare technical skills, and you’re not at the right place at the right time, then you really have to use your network.

People Can Connect Us to New Opportunities

27:48 Jen: And that’s all of us. Not only so that potentially you could get referred to a job, you could be an inside hire as it were. Right? That’s great. But it’s not only that. It’s so that you can learn what’s out there. It’s so that you have people on your team to send you job ads. I applied for a job in September, and I wouldn’t have seen it except that somebody that I know and have known over the years. I’m not frequently in contact with her, but she kind of knows about me in general. She sent me the job ad as soon as she saw it posted. And I was like, “Oh my goodness.” And what happened is I had a number of other people send me the job ad subsequently.

28:26 Emily: Your branding is so clear that many people could identify what is a perfect job for you.

28:31 Jen: Exactly, exactly. Right. Exactly.

28:34 Emily: I actually have another story to add to that pile, which is how my husband got his job in industry. And so this is more about the value of networking with people from your own program who have moved on in the years prior to you. Because it’s not just the faculty who have networks. It’s anybody who’s exited academia. Even an undergraduate that you worked with who is now in the workforce can be a contact in your network. So my husband, some person who had graduated from his program a couple years earlier, sent a job listing for his, you know, at the time current company to my husband’s PI and said, I know that your lab lines up very well with what we do here. Could you show this to your students who are graduating? And that happened, and my husband got that position. So that was like just, yep. Clearly networking. Because of course it was on the strength of his PIs reputation. This individual didn’t know my husband in particular. But yeah, that’s exactly how it happened and it was quick and easy.

29:31 Jen: Yeah. And that’s what you want. Right? I mean, life doesn’t always work out that way, but quick and easy means that there was years of work that went into that ahead of time, but it doesn’t have to difficult. It’s all, I mean, it’s just about making friends, having good conversations and doing work that you find interesting and that you find engaging. And if you do that over the years and you are in conversation with people about that, hopefully kind of stars align at a certain point and it seems easy.

Always Try to Negotiate Your Starting Offer

30:03 Emily: Yes, exactly great point. So, okay. Our candidate has, you know, done the job searching, done the self-reflection, applying for jobs. You mentioned a moment ago, negotiating base salary as incredibly important. And so this to me also is one, probably your biggest opportunity, to mitigate financial damage that’s occurred during your PhD, is to get that first starting offer as high as you reasonably can within the scope of the field and your skills and so forth. But to negotiate that offer, because I think some PhDs might be kind of bowled over by, “Oh my goodness. You’re offering me how much money?” And again, they’re anchored to their graduate student salary. And so, might just feel so grateful, yeah, and I get that, that they don’t negotiate. But really it’s expected. It’s absolutely expected in industry and it’s probably going to be pretty well-received.

30:54 Emily: Even if the answer is, no, this is a union job and you can’t negotiate, that might be the answer, but you’re not going to be faulted for trying. Right? So, definitely at least attempt that negotiation, because as you said, having a slightly higher base salary, that’s going to affect for sure, whatever salaries you have, as long as you stay at that company. And may even beyond that, if you know, employers shouldn’t, but are allowed to, at least in the U.S. In many cases ask about prior salaries, it depends on what state you’re in. So it’s possible that it could even affect once you leave that, you know, that particular employer, could still follow you. So getting that starting salary as high as you can is a great idea. Even if it seems really scary and daunting to you in terms of the number.

31:38 Jen: Yeah. And I would recognize, you know, everything in life is a risk. Sure. Of course. But once an employer has made an offer to you, they are imagining you solving their problem and hanging out with them every day. And that gives you some power here. As I say, there’s a risk, but I would, you know, own the power that you have in that situation to make a strong case for yourself. You have to make the case. But you want to be successful in that position long-term to help the team grow, et cetera, et cetera. And so, you’re going to show up for them and they should show up for you in terms of base salary.

Good Employers Make their Employees Feel Valued

32:22 Emily: Yeah. And I think it actually goes back to what we talked about earlier that academia, for whatever reason, decides to put this financial stress on its trainees. Your employer probably does not want you to be under that kind of financial stress. They want to pay you enough to reflect the value, to make you feel like you’re valued. That you’re not going jump ship and go to someone else. That you’re going to be able to live in the city that they’re in, you know, comfortably without having to move an hour away for your commute. All of that stuff affects your performance at work. And so it can all come into play when you think about what is the salary that I want to have to perform well in this position? That’s really your opportunity to express that.

32:57 Jen: To a certain extent, there’s some recalibration that might need to happen for folks coming out of academia, where things can be such a struggle, and you can have this impression that any employer is kind of out to get you, out to screw you over. Depending on the experience that you have in academia and the experience of your colleagues and friends around you. But yeah, as Emily said, I mean, any employer that you would really want to work for, they recognize the crucial importance of their labor, of the people doing the work. I mean, this is so, so, so important, and employers, good employers, employers that you want to work for. And there’s lots of them out there. They’re not going to pay you outrageous sums of money potentially, but they want you to be able to have the lifestyle and do the work and be happy and get what you need to be on their team, solving their problems. So, I would assume, assume that they want to pay you equitably right. Fairly and adequately. And, you know, maybe a little more than that. I would assume that, and go forth.

34:04 Jen: Yeah, I am glad you put in the caveat of a good employer, because certainly there are ones that–maybe not employers broadly, but maybe a manager, someone who views this more as a competitive thing, like I’m going to pay you less because I have that better from my bottom line. But it really should be viewed more so as, “We want you to do a great job, and we’re going to compensate you well to do that great job.” And certainly if you get into a salary negotiation process with an employer and you’re getting a vibe that they don’t really seem like they want to support you, then that’s your red flag. And that’s the time to go back to the exploring you’ve done and go back and look at other, you know, positions that you might have, and so forth.

Avoiding Lifestyle Inflation and Unhealthy Mindsets

34:40 Emily: Okay. So, let’s then talk about, you’ve got the job, maybe you’re a few months, a few years into that point. What should you still be doing to again be mitigating the mindset and the literal financial damage that your time in academia has wrought?

34:55 Jen: Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, I think there’s lots of things that one could say here, but something that comes to mind for me is a phrase that I’m sure, you know, people that grew up in this part of the world have heard, penny-wise and pound-foolish, right? And to a certain extent, you know, when you’re in academia, there are a lot of things that you don’t pay outright for, of course you do pay for them through tuition, et cetera. But it doesn’t occur to you. So there might be things that you yourself would want to invest in, to use that term. And I use that term kind of in a broader sense that will help you over the long term. Ideally, your employer pays for professional development and pays for coaching and whatever, pays therapy, right? Ideally you have benefits around that. But it could be, you know, if you don’t, or if you’re unemployed at the moment, that it can be really valuable to invest in those kinds of services for a relatively short amount of time, because the investment as a metaphor is the right one, because there will be a longer-term payoff.

36:01 Jen: And if you can get your career started kind of on a good footing, great. Right? It’s just so helpful. It’s so helpful. And I would sit down with a money advisor, financial advisor, or whatever the term is, you know, somebody who can kind of tell you things, even if it’s your mom, right? Because if you can get into the lifestyle kind of early on of making good decisions around money, but also, you know, making decisions about you suddenly have more money, hopefully maybe you can set money aside for vacation. You know, that’s a good thing too, et cetera.

36:43 Emily: I totally agree. And actually, this is a phase that I’ve come to now that I’m, you know, a few years post-PhD and into my career, my business with Personal Finance for PhDs, is this idea of investing in myself was something I was very reluctant to do, right? Because I was being penny wise, pound foolish right when I finished my PhD because I wasn’t making that much money yet. So how can I, you know, decide to invest? But actually, you were one of the first people who I worked with, you know, near the start of my business. And it was a was a small investment, but I joined one of your programs. And it, I mean, I still talk about it and laud it, this was Self-Employed PhD, and how we originally met and what an impact that made on me.

37:23 Emily: And I’ve since then been much more willing to invest in training and professional development for myself. So I would definitely, I mean, obviously my field as an entrepreneur is, is different from what other people were doing, but just be thinking about what are the professionals, if it’s again, not provided, as you said, through your workplace, which sometimes it is, what professionals might I work with that can help further my career further, my financial development? Of course you are one of those professionals. If the question is more on the career front with PhD to Life. I am one of those professionals if the question is more on the, how do I handle my finances? How do I handle my budget? You know, what should I be saving for? What should my life look like? If those are the kinds of questions, then of course, feel free to work with me, but there are also many other types of professionals, depending on the exact needs that you have.

Invest in Your Future

38:06 Emily: And as you said, it is an investment. It takes money to work with a professional in the way that we’re talking about. But ideally, the dividends are going to start coming very, very soon after you begin that relationship. Another sort of financial tip, I’ll definitely say, once you’re into that, you know, your career and you’re making a much better salary than you were as a post-doc or as a graduate student. This is now the time to not super increase your lifestyle. Yes. Hopefully, you will be spending more so that you don’t feel stressed. But to some extent you should keep your lifestyle level on a little bit lower than maybe where you see your new colleagues at because you do need to make up for lost time a little bit, and doing things like starting to invest inside your company’s 401(k), even maxing out that 401(k). So to be going into those tax advantaged, designed for retirement types of accounts to a great degree, I mean, just put money away from your salary. You never see it coming in your paycheck. It’s all payroll deductions. That’s the best way to do things. So it might seem like a large number. Right now, a 401(k) in the U.S. would be $19,500 per year to max that out as an employee.

39:17 Emily: Why not? Why not? If your salary has jumped up by much more than that in this transition, why not go for that? Why not have that be your new anchor in your mind? So think about maxing out that 401(k), or at least contributing a good amount to it. Think about making serious, serious progress on your student loans if you have decided that you’re not going to go for an income-driven repayment plan and forgiveness plan. So all kinds of other questions, but this is the time when you get into that job where you can really, like you were saying earlier, you know, hitting the ground running like you’ve done these years of preparation for your career so that by the time it’s finally time to apply for a job, you’re ready and raring to go. It’s kind of the same thing financially. You’ve been keeping your lifestyle low for such a long time. Now you have the salary, don’t do too much lifestyle inflation and just get saving, get investing, get on that debt.

Think of Your Future Self

40:02 Emily: When we were preparing for this interview, you told me you had a message for people earlier on in their PhD journeys than you are currently. So what is that message?

40:12 Jen: Oh boy, your future self is going to care so much more about money than you do now. You know, if you’re in a PhD program, like I started my PhD at 24, like I was like, “Whoa, $15,000 a year.” This was a while ago now. Great. I can’t believe, you know, we hear this all the time. I can’t believe I’m going to get paid to do a PhD. That’s amazing. Okay. Awesome. Congratulations. But just know that your future self is going to care so much more. I mean, I happily, relatively happily, lived with a roommate for years and years and years, and I now live by myself and I pay a lot more money for that privilege, but I just, I just don’t, I don’t want to go back. Right? And so, of course I need a lot more money than I used to. And that, yeah, your future self is going to thank you i you care about it a little bit more than you might be inclined to when you’re, say, 24.

41:15 Emily: Yeah. And by doing the things that we’ve been talking about, like negotiating, like starting to invest early, even if none of your peers are doing it. Like having a side hustle maybe to bring in a little bit of extra money. I’ll say from my perspective too, like now that I, you know, my husband and I got married during graduate school, so we really, you know, we didn’t need any more money after our marriage than we did before. We were both in graduate school. But after we finished our PhDs, we had a couple babies and you know what, once you get on that train, things get very expensive very quickly. And so that’s not at all to say that you can’t have children earlier. That’s just my personal journey, but I certainly feel like we need to command a much higher salary at this stage in our lives and our family formation than we did years ago when we were, you know, DINKS [dual income, no kids]. So there’s that too, if you want that in your future. Yeah. It’s something to start thinking about now.

42:08 Jen: One of my recent clients, she lives in an expensive part of the U.S. Right? Granted but the lifestyle that she has now, a few years out of her PhD with a couple of kids and, you know, a mortgage and all of the above, she really can’t accept a job that pays her less than $150,000 a year. And right. It’s just the reality. And that might seem outrageous to folks listening now who are living on, $30k or less, maybe much less. Like, just keep that in mind. It’s not, you know, I’m not saying that my client, she’s not greedy. It’s just the reality of the situation. Life can get expensive really quickly.

42:45 Emily: Yeah. And I’ll link actually in the show notes, a wonderful interview I did with Dr. Scott Kennedy a year or two ago where he talks about his own realizations as he formed his family during graduate school, that he was going to have to change his career plans, to go into a different field that was going to pay more because he could not afford, now that he had a family, to stay on the track that he had been on. Even though that was sort of intellectually, maybe his preference from earlier on. So these kinds of things have, you know, your life has real impacts on how much money you need to make. And that’s something to start, you know, being realistic about as early on as possible.

How Can People Work With You, Jen?

43:24 Emily: All right, Jen, how can people work with you, should they, you know, if they’ve been intrigued by this interview?

43:32 Jen: For sure. Yeah. Thanks for asking. So, start on my website fromphdtolife.com. I work with individuals. I do small group things, coaching, open discussions. Those are a lot of fun. Shout out to small group things. I think those are awesome. I do drop-ins for Self-Employed PhDs. So, if that applies to you at all, check those out. And then I also work with institutions. So I’m happy to come to your campus, virtually please, I do a presentation or a workshop. I love workshops. So there’s different options.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

44:07 Emily: Wonderful. And final question that I ask of all my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

44:15 Jen: So this is a totally “do as I did, and also, as I say,” usually those two things do not go together. But one thing that I have been doing for 20 years, gosh, wow, something like that, is I track every penny. There are no pennies in Canada anymore. I track everything that I spend. So I know how much my life costs. Like I literally know how much my life costs in different categories. And years ago, I used to do this on a, it wasn’t even Excel. I use the WordPerfect version of excel, just a spreadsheet. But now there are lots of programs out there. But I think, you know, tracking what you spend is really, really important. It’s different from budgeting. You can do both together. But the example I like to give is like, I think this is really common for grad students.

45:11 Jen: Like you might spend like a lot of money, like on clothing kind of once or twice a year, not on a monthly basis. So some of the kind of standard ways of thinking about budgeting is sort of like a monthly thing. You go to your big annual conference one month and suddenly you’ve spent $2,000 more than, right? So anyways, but track, and then you can see the trends over time. And by seeing the amount of money that you’re spending in different categories, literally being able to like, see it on a spreadsheet, you can make decisions, better decisions about, you know, how much, how do you really want to spend $200 on takeout every month? Maybe. Yes. Maybe no. Right. But it makes it very clear.

45:55 Emily: I totally totally agree. Foundational personal finance advice. Step number one, track your spending. Track your expenses. Well Jen, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your expertise.

46:07 Jen: Thank you.

Outtro

46:09 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Handle Your Student Loans During Grad School and Following

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In this episode, Emily interviews Meagan Landress, a Certified Student Loan Professional who works with Student Loan Planner, about how a grad student or PhD should best handle their federal student loans. Meagan outlines the financial profiles of someone who should use an income-driven repayment plan to pursue forgiveness, including Public Service Loan Forgiveness, vs. someone who should consider refinancing. She answers the questions: Should a graduate student pay down their student loans while they are in deferment? How should a graduate student who needs to take out debt decide between a student loan and consumer debt? Meagan also explains how marriage affects student loan repayment under each of the income-driven repayment programs. Don’t miss this episode jam-packed with actionable information!

Link Mentioned in this Episode

student loans grad school

Trailer

00:00 Meagan: We are taking a non-traditional approach to debt and so I kind of backed that up with, make sure you know, that federal student loans are just not a regular debt. That’s one. That’s the biggest thing we need to remember.

Introduction

01:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education and personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 13 and today my guest is Meagan Landress, a certified student loan professional who works with Student Loan Planner. We’re discussing how a grad student or PhD should best handle their federal student loans. Meagan outlines the financial profiles of someone who should use an income-driven repayment plan to pursue forgiveness, including public service loan forgiveness, versus someone who should consider refinancing. She answers the questions: should a graduate student pay down their student loans while they’re in deferment? How should a graduate student who needs to take out debt decide between a student loan and consumer debt? Megan also explains how marriage affects student loan repayment under each of the income driven repayment programs. If you have federal student loans, and there is any question in your mind as to how you should handle them, you should absolutely listen through this entire episode. When you have a really high stakes student loan decision to make, such as which forgiveness program is right for you and your family, or whether to pursue PSLF versus refinancing, I highly recommend working with a certified student loan professional or a certified financial planner. Student Loan Planner can refer you to one of their partners who is a qualified professional.

01:39 Emily: On the other hand, if you’re looking for assistance with determining what your current financial goal should be, evaluating your budget, or figuring out what your financial life should look like in your next position, please consider working with me. I also serve as a financial coach and I specialize in funded graduate students and PhDs. You can sign up for a free 15 minute introductory call with me at pfforphds.com/coaching to see if one-on-one coaching with me would be a good fit for you. Alternatively, if a group coaching and accountability program is attractive to you, The Wealthy PhD might be your best option. I’m enrolling for the next round of The Wealthy PhD in January, 2021 and you can go to pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD to learn more and join the wait list. Whatever the financial decision you’re facing, it can really help to get an outside perspective. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Meagan Landress.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:36 Emily: I am so pleased that Meagan Landress, a certified student loan professional, has agreed to join me on the podcast today to give an interview all about federal student loans for graduate students and PhDs. Meagan has her own coaching business around student loans, and she also works with Student Loan Planner, which is a really well-known brand in the space that I respect a lot. So I was really pleased to be connected with Meagan and so pleased that she accepted the invitation to be on the podcast. So Meagan, will you please introduce yourself to my audience a little bit further?

03:05 Meagan: Definitely. I’m Meagan Landress, born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia. And yes, I have my own financial coaching practice where I work with folks on the basics of financial planning. And Student Loan Planner, I consult for specifically on student loans, helping people navigate that big elephant on their chest, I would say. I’m excited for this conversation today.

03:29 Emily: Yeah. When I approached Student Loan Planner, I said, I would love to interview someone. I need someone who’s going to be able to speak to PhDs and the specifics of their situation. They said, Meagan’s going to be the perfect fit, so I’m really excited for this conversation.

Federal Student Loan Forgiveness Programs vs. Refinancing

03:42 Emily: Let’s jump right into it. I’m imagining a person who, whether they’re in graduate school, whether they’re maybe out of graduate school, they need to know whether or not they should be pursuing a forgiveness program at the federal level. One, maybe you could just remind us briefly of a few of those acronyms that are involved with the federal level forgiveness programs, and then let us know who is the type of person, what is the financial profile of a person who really should be looking carefully at pursuing one of those forgiveness programs?

04:13 Meagan: Yeah, so I think the most maybe well-known is public service loan forgiveness. That is, if you’re dedicating your career to a public service opportunity, so government, nonprofit, 501(c)(3) work. But also each of the income driven plans, there are four, each of those income driven plans have a forgiveness component and it’s really more so like their maximum repayment period. The folks that should be pursuing or entertaining forgiveness, there is a rule of thumb on balance.

Meagan: For the longer term income driven plans, if your balance is much greater than your annual income, we use 1.5 times your annual income, then you should probably be entertaining that longer term forgiveness route on the income driven plans. It’s not public service work. It’s not career-driven anything like that. You just have to be making payments on that plan for either 20 or 25 years. PSLF, I think is a little more straightforward. If you find yourself in a public service position and you can foresee your career continuing to go that route. I see this a lot in education, you know, public universities, and so that’s where we want to be entertaining, maybe public service loan forgiveness, which is 120 qualifying payments on an income driven plan. And then you reap the benefit of forgiveness. So it’s much shorter. Those would be some maybe identifying factors there.

05:42 Emily: So just to put a real fine point on this, when we’re talking about a debt to income ratio, is that the income that the person has post all education or during the course of their education

05:54 Meagan: Post-education. So I would say the first couple of years of their career.

05:59 Emily: Okay. So someone coming out of their PhD, first post-PhD job within those first couple of years, if they see that their debt is more than one and a half times, their post PhD income, that’s when they should be looking pretty hard at enrolling one of these forgiveness plans and potentially seeing it through to completion. Is there any difference in that rule of thumb, around whether if the program is PSLF, which only would take 10 years, versus one of the ones that would take 20 to 25 years,

06:27 Meagan: There’s a little bit of, because that ratio is not quite right since it’s such a shorter period of time. And so folks who have about the same, or maybe even a little less than their income, could still benefit from public service loan forgiveness. We just have to do the math on it because the payments are going to be based off of your income. And we need to project that out to see, would you just pay it off in 10 years or would you reap the benefit of some kind of forgiveness? The debt to income ratio isn’t so relevant with PSLF, but it could be maybe a rule of thumb to start with, and then you have to go and do some math.

07:07 Emily: Yeah. I’m fully anticipating there being a lot of answers like, well, this is the starting position, but really we have to fine tune it through doing some more math. So I fully anticipate a lot of those answers during this interview and that’s perfectly fine. I just want to get people a starting point, because when you’re sitting, prior to getting out of graduate school and you’re wondering whether or not you should be, your loans are probably in deferment, but you’re wondering whether or not you should pursue a forgiveness plan afterwards. It’s just helpful to see whether or not you have to go further into the details of it or not. There’s another option for repaying your student loans. Well, there’s a few options. You can do the standard repayment program for the federal government. That’s going to take 10 years, and it’s just based on your debt amounts, not based on your income at all, the repayment amounts. Or you have the opportunity to potentially refinance your loans. And there’s been a lot of advertising around student loan refinancing in the last 10 years. Very, very low rates are being offered. What is the financial profile of person who should be considering refinancing rather than potentially pursuing PSLF or another forgiveness program?

08:13 Meagan: Yeah. Refinancing is a big, you’ll see these commercials on TV all the time now. But when it’s right to consider refinancing, I think that’s when your balance is lower than your annual income, and you feel comfortable walking away from the federal system. And what I mean by that is the federal system has a lot of flexibilities that private loans just don’t offer. You won’t have very generous for forebarance availability. You won’t have access to income driven plans. There’s no forgiveness opportunity with private loans. And so if you feel comfortable with your financial situation and you can commit to the term for refinancing and you weren’t a good candidate for forgiveness in any way, then that’s when I think it’s appropriate to pull the trigger on refinancing.

09:00 Emily: Yeah. And I think what concurs with that is that you have to have a fairly low debt to income ratio to even qualify for the really good refinancing options. Like it pretty much has to be below about one-to-one anyway, to do that, which for people in my audience, PhDs, oftentimes refinancing is not going to be an option during graduate school because the income is just so low. However, if your post PhD income is going to jump up quite a lot, then refinancing might make sense once you get to that point. You may wish you could have refinanced earlier, but you probably wouldn’t qualify if your debt is maybe a few multiples of your graduate student income, but less than one year’s worth of your post PhD income. Thanks for that clarification.

09:40 Emily: I know there’s a lot of anxiety going on right now about PSLF. There was a report, I think it was in 2018 or something about how 90-whatever percent of people were being rejected by PSLF. Can you shed some light on this? Should people be concerned about the health and the future of PSLF?

09:54 Meagan: I wish I could take this article down. This one, everyone references, I feel like, when we’re talking about PSLF, but it’s funny when you go back to that article and you break apart the math in that article, you’ll see that about 70% to 80% of that 99% number of denials was due to one of two reasons. One was because people applied before reaching 120 payments. I think there’s a lot of reasonings behind that. Some people truly may have just been off a couple of payments and got denied. It didn’t mean that they’re denied for the whole program, they just have to make a couple more payments to get to 120. But I think the other big reason was there was a buzz about PSLF in 2017 and 2018. That was the first year we could have applied for the forgiveness. People in public service got excited about it and they were like, “Oh, I’ll just apply to see what happens,” and they hadn’t done the due diligence to check all the boxes and they definitely didn’t do the time. And so that’s my unofficial hypothesis on what happened there.

Meagan: Then there are some other things too, like there are some specific things you need to make sure you’re checking the box for, like having the correct type of loans, only direct loans qualify for forgiveness and being on an income driven plan. Those are two that were another percentage of why people got denied. They had either the wrong type of loans or weren’t on the right repayment plan. That article, while although looked horrifying, if that was the route you were going, it was very misleading. And I wish they would have pulled out some of that bad data. But PSLF is a great program to pursue. We just have to make sure we’re doing the due diligence and keeping a pulse on our payments over time to not have any surprises, that’s really the big important part with PSLF.

11:49 Emily: I guess I’ve also heard sort of anecdotally that I believe you have to do a recertification every year to make sure that your employer is still the type of employer where you would qualify for this program and that maybe you need to stay on top of your employer and your lender to make sure that all that paperwork is going through. Sort of you as the borrower need to take on a little bit more responsibility than you might like to, just to make sure that all the I’s are being dotted and the T’s are being crossed and everything.

12:16 Meagan: Yes. There’s what’s called the employment certification form that we recommend submitting at least once a year, even if you haven’t switched employers. What that form does is yes, it does verify that the employer still has that tax-exempt status. It also verifies and certifies that you still work there full-time. That’s one of the other requirements, working full-time for that entity. Once they get that form, then they update your payments since the last time you submitted it. And what’s nice too, they just updated their portal to where it shows your PSLF payment track, which is new because he used to have to wait for that confirmation email after submitting the ECF form to know where you stood payment-wise, but now it reports real time. So I’m excited about that. It’s a great addition, I think, to the portal,

13:04 Emily: I’m sure that gives the additional peace of mind to not have to wait for that communication to come back.

Making Payments on Student Loans During Grad School

13:11 Emily: Now I’m thinking about a person in graduate school, their loans are in deferment. They’re looking ahead to their post PhD career and saying, yeah, “I think I’m going to be able to pay these loans off once I get to that point. I don’t really think I’m going to have to do an income driven repayment program. PSLF is not an attractive…That type of employment is not really my plan.” That’s what they’re saying to themselves in graduate school. In this particular scenario, this graduate student has the flexibility to be able to make some kinds of payments towards their student loans. They’re receiving a stipend. It’s enough for them to live on. They’re able to pursue some financial goals aside from just paying for basic living expenses. Is that a good idea? And how does the person determine whether they should go that route, of repaying a bit of debt during graduate school, or whether they should just kind of defer it all and wait until afterwards?

14:00 Meagan: Yeah, that’s a good question. And I think, yes all of those things you mentioned before have to exist. We need to know that we’re not pursuing PSLF one way or another. And I would suggest before putting money down on the student loans, making sure your emergency savings is healthy. We never want to be in a position where we have thrown all of our money towards our debt, we can’t get it back out, and we need it for an emergency. That is a bad situation to be in. I think having a buffer and savings is important, but I think one thing being in graduate school, we can’t officially enter repayment until we have graduation status. We can, with some of our undergrad loans, if we wanted to, we can enter repayment on those specifically. We can make payments, we just can’t officially enter a repayment plan on our existing school loans, so if you wanted to make payments, you could.

Meagan: Your un-subsidized loans do accrue interest while you’re in school. So that’s anything that says un-subsidized from undergrad and from grad school, and also grad school loans are considered un-subsidized. Those loans specifically accrue interest. Subsidized loans do not. If you wanted to prioritize which loans you’re applying payments to, subsidized loans aren’t going to be growing while you’re in school. So you can maybe prioritize the unsub and I think you can apply it straight to that interest. Again, it’s going to accrue on a monthly basis, so maybe you can find out how much that is and make those payments so it doesn’t grow while you’re in school. Those are some thoughts there. Post-graduation you can immediately enter repayment if you wanted to, by consolidating. You typically have a six month grace period where you can decide what plan you’re going on, get established. But if you wanted to enter repayment officially sooner, you can consolidate and kind of force yourself into repayment.

16:03 Emily: I see. How big of a factor should the interest rate on the unsubsidized student loans play in this decision, about whether to pay them down a bit or pursue other financial goals? We already covered the emergency fund, but if a graduate student is looking at “well, I can start investing for retirement, for example, versus paying down the student loans,” what are your thoughts about how the interest rate should factor into that decision?

16:28 Meagan: Yeah, so the interest rates on student loans do a lot of times fall in a gray area where, I mean, between 5% to 7% — I’m not sure, I’m not confident that you might get a longer term return if you were to invest that extra money instead. It really just depends and it kind of depends on your risk tolerance there. But any interest rates that are below 5%, we can kind of put those lower on the totem pole because if we took that extra money and we put it into our IRA or putting it towards our financial independence, long-term investing tells us on average, we can get close to 7% to 10%. I know that’s a big range, but it just depends. So if our debt is charging us 4%, or 5% even, there is that that net value that we’re missing out on. So I would say lower interest rates, I wouldn’t prioritize necessarily. If you have extra dollars, put that towards savings or put that towards your IRA or have a split approach — put some towards the loans and some towards retirement. When interest rates are higher though, when they’re in the 7% range, which is normal for graduate students, that’s where they’re a little iffy and we might want to prioritize them a little more. Those would be ones that you’d want to prioritize and you can kind of take a avalanche approach where we tackle the highest interest rate loans first, if you wanted to do it that way.

18:01 Emily: Yeah. What if we flip the scenario a little bit and say, okay, well instead this graduate student is someone who is going to pursue an income driven repayment plan and potentially forgiveness, maybe PSLF, but they still have that disposable or discretionary income during graduate school, then I guess the weight would tilt towards starting to invest. If you know that you’re going to be enrolling in one of those plans later, my understanding is, hey, never make an extra payment, never pay more than the minimum, if that is your plan and all that extra money should be going towards your other financial goals.

18:35 Meagan: You said it. Yeah. And we can’t have a qualifying payment while we’re still in school. Sometimes that’s a misconception. People feel like they can enter repayment and start having payments count towards forgiveness. We can’t necessarily with our existing degree loans, we have to wait until post-graduation for those payments to count. So, yes, we don’t want to pay a dollar extra. So throw that towards something that’s going to serve you in the future, and that would be retirement or savings.

Commercial

19:04 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, book club and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now back to the interview.

Taking Out Student Loans During Grad School

20:08 Emily: Yeah, I think another point that might be helpful for the listeners is to understand, if you want to take out federal, and if you have any conception in your mind that there might be a possibility you want to take out a federal student loan during graduate school, what are the steps you need to do in advance to have that be an option for you versus what you just said: well, maybe at the given time that you need money, maybe you can’t take out a loan right at that moment. What steps should a person do in advance? If they’re thinking, yeah, this might be a possibility for me down the road.

20:34 Meagan: You’d want to complete FASFA each year. As a graduate student, your parents information, does it factor in anymore so it is solely on your financial situation. That’s going to help you with the un-subsidized funding, which you can get up to $20,500 for. You’ll also might want to consider looking at signing the graduate plus promissory note, which your financial aid office will tell you to do if you need that additional funding. But it is a separate promissory note. If we need above and beyond that $20,500, then you can spill over into the graduate plus loans. That’s what I would, I would do each year: FASFA and then for the first time you borrow, graduate plus, or if you don’t have graduate plus now, maybe go ahead and sign that promissory note. Either way you have to accept the aid that you’re being awarded. It’s not like you’re just willy-nilly applying for a loan. You have to intentionally accept it, but that gears you up to be able to accept it without having to do all that paperwork in a rush or being too late.

21:41 Emily: Yeah, I guess I’m just thinking financial planning wise for graduate student, going into or in a graduate program where they just know this program is not paying me well, I can barely make ends meet, that might be a thing to do in advance. It’s actually a little bit like having an emergency fund. If you know you can’t build up your own emergency fund right now, where it’s not going to be very big because they just aren’t paying you enough to make that happen, then maybe this is a good sort of backup plan to have. Do all the paperwork in advance, if anything adverse ever happens this is another step that you could take. I don’t love that idea because of course it’s better to just have your own emergency funds and go and you go forward and of course that’s, most of the strategies that I talk about through the podcast is how to overall be building up your savings during graduate school, but just as like a backup plan, it seems like it could be prudent to take these steps so that money, the loans could be available to you if you came upon a situation where you needed it. You do need to take some steps in advance to make that happen, so thank you for clarifying that.

The Intricacies of Student Loan Repayment

How Marriage May Affect Your Repayment

22:40 Emily: Okay, now we’re getting to a couple, maybe more niche kinds of questions. I get a question sometimes from people who are either married or they’re considering getting married, but they want to know how their status as being legally married or not is going to affect things like their tax returns and therefore their student loan repayment amounts. Can you just explain how that works? I’m thinking especially for someone who is maybe considering getting married, but wondering about the timing of it and wondering if they’re going to have to do married filing separately and these kinds of questions. So with taxes and student loans, what happens when you get married and you have student loans or your spouse has student loans?

23:25 Meagan: Yeah. When you get legally married, your tax filing status, when it comes to being on an income driven repayment plan matters. If we’re filing taxes joint with our spouse, and we’re on an income driven plan, it is going to factor in our spouse’s income. We not want that to happen. We may keep our finances separately. We may be trying to keep our payment as low as possible to pursue forgiveness. One strategy we talk about is considering filing separately and what this does, depending on the plan, if we file our taxes separate and we’re on an income driven plan, either pay as you earn income based repayment or income contingent repayment, then we’re allowed to exclude our spouse’s income and keep our payment off of just our own, which can be hugely beneficial.

24:18 Meagan: There are downsides to filing separate that need to be weighed, so you want to do an analysis of what is the cost difference between filing separate and joint? Because you’re missing out on some tax discounts and maybe some benefits. And how does that compare to how much it saves us over the course of the year in our payment? I never want someone to be scared to get married because of their student loans. We can always pivot. It’s just in the year of marriage. You need to know that being married will impact the income driven plan that you’re on and you might want to take a closer look at how you file before you file.

24:57 Meagan: Then the last thing I’ll mention on that is revised pay as you earn, which is 10% of discretionary income, that plan does not care if you file separate. It’s going to count spousal income or all household income regardless. If you’re on that plan and you don’t want your spouse’s income factored in, you might need to switch to either PAYE or IBR and that can kind of solve that problem to where if you don’t want income factored in.

Choosing a Repayment Program

25:25 Emily: Gotcha. Thank you so much for clarifying that. You said earlier there are four different programs plus PSLF you mentioned a few of them just now — for someone who’s looking at this landscape and wondering how in the world do I choose which one of these programs I should enroll in. How can they do that?

25:43 Meagan: A really simplified way to think about it is if you’re going the forgiveness route, you want to choose the lowest income driven plan available. So that would be revised pay as you earn or pay as you earn. If you don’t want spousal income factored in, that would be pay as you earn or IBR, if you don’t have access to pay as you earn. From an income driven plan perspective, that’s how I would think. If our plan is to pay off the loans, then we might want to be choosing one of those amateurized options like the standard 10 year until we can commit to refinancing, or, and this might dive into one of your other topics I know we had mentioned, but if our income is really low now, and we want to take advantage of an income driven plan, but we are not ready to throw a lot towards it, then starting out on REPAYE could be really advantageous because of its interest subsidies. What that means is it has discounts on how much interest accrues when you’re in repayment, but the payment itself might not be as much as it needs to be to cover interest and principle. So it keeps that balance from ballooning and instead of being in forbearance or pausing loans during that timeframe, interests won’t continue to grow in that way. I know we were going to touch on that. I might’ve skipped ahead, but let me know if you want me to slow down on that one again.

27:11 Emily: No, I think it just gives a flavor for how complex this decision is, and how your individual career path and income path will affect the decision that you make, plus what you’re doing in your personal life, whether you want to get married or not. Who should be working with someone like you? What’s the kind of person who should be working with someone like you to figure out what the best decision is? And who’s the kind of person who, well, it’s simple enough, you can figure it out on your own?

When to Consult a Professional

27:38 Meagan: Yeah, I think if you have any anxiety or stress about making this decision, and it’s overwhelming doing this research for yourself, in a one hour consult, we will have your plan put together. If you want to save the time, save the energy and the stress, that’s somebody who would be a good candidate to work with us. For someone who might not be such a great candidate, I think if you are already very familiar with all of these repayment options if for sure that you’re going to be refinancing or just paying it off really aggressively, then I think that would be more so like a quick, “Hey, yup, I think you’ve got the right idea.” And again, that would be if your balance is lower than your income and you’re ready to walk away from those federal flexibilities. I think we won’t be able to provide as much value there, but for folks who have balance is much greater than income, and they’re a little nervous about that decision or navigating that, we would be helpful in that situation.

28:40 Emily: Yeah. I guess the way I’m thinking about it is like how high are the stakes here. If they’re pretty high, if that loan balance is pretty high compared to your income, that’s the time when you need to be sure you’re making the right decision and it helps to get some professional guidance at that point. And like you said, if you can have a one hour session and get a firm answer, that’s going to do well for you for the next 10 years, or unless and until your situation drastically changes, then that is awesome peace of mind to pay for in just an hour. That sounds wonderful.

29:09 Meagan: Yeah, and just the strategy too. There’s a lot of technicalities that go into when to file, like when to certify income, how to reduce income. There’s a lot of things that go into it, so if you wanted to get really sexy with your planning, that’s where we could come into.

The Emotional Aspect of Repayment

29:24 Emily: Okay. Yeah. Great recommendation on that front. Another question occurred to me, pulling together some of the threads that we’ve mentioned so far in the interview, if you are deciding to go in an income driven repayment plan and your intention is eventually to have a lot of that balance forgiven. We mentioned earlier never make more than the minimum payment you’re required to. Don’t make payments during deferment. Don’t make more than the minimum once you’re in repayment. Emotionally, how does a person deal with potentially seeing their balance, plus the interest increase and increase and increase, which is the situation that some people would be in pursuing that route over those 10 years, or even 20 or 25 years, while they’re in those types of programs? How do they emotionally deal with looking at that until they do get to the forgiveness at the end?

30:13 Meagan: It is something I feel like you need to compartmentalize because we are taking a non-traditional approach to debt. I back that up with make sure you know that federal student loans are just not a regular debt. That’s one, that’s the biggest thing we need to remember that if we were going by traditional debt advice, and if this was a traditional debt, we would have the opposite mindset. It would be, let’s pay this off like our hair’s on fire. But the federal system has some really unique opportunities like income driven plans and forgiveness that we can take advantage of that really help us prioritize other financial obligations. Maybe instead of getting anxiety about the loan balance increasing, maybe focus more on your savings increasing. So you have a lot more cashflow to be able to throw towards your financial independence and as long as we’re working towards that forgiveness timeline the balance will grow, but there is an end in sight. That’s something that I think can bring some peace of mind and just knowing and remembering that federal loans are not a normal debt.

31:18 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for that insight. I think I’ll add to it. The real danger here is going into one of these forgiveness plans, one of these income-driven repayment plans, and taking advantage of the lower payment and then not having any movement in the rest of your financial life — not doing the investing, not doing the saving. That’s the real danger when you get to the end of the 10 years or the 20 or the 25. And yes, hopefully everything goes smoothly and the rest of the balance is forgiven, but you kind of have nothing on the other side of it because the whole time you’re thinking, “well, I still have my student loans, so I’m not going to be investing.” If you’re making the intentional decision to pursue an income driven repayment plan and pursue forgiveness, then your high priority needs to be, “yep I’m taking advantage of this, but at the same time, I’m going to be working on my finances over here. I’m going to be building up my portfolio, building my net worth.” And who knows what might happen in the future. If it turns out that the forgiveness was taken away or didn’t happen or something went wrong or something happened in your life, I don’t know, at least you have some net worth on the other side of the equation to potentially deal with the debt or whatever might be going on. It’s really just shoring up your finances in one spot rather than paying off the debt. Thank you so much for that insight.

What is Your Best Financial Advice for an Early Career PhD?

32:31 Emily: Meagan, I like to end all my interviews by asking for your best financial advice for an early career PhD, a graduate student or a PhD. That could be something that’s related to what we’ve talked about in this interview, or it could be something completely else, but would you please share that with us?

32:46 Meagan: I would say, I think my best coin of advice would just be to have a plan. And I know that sounds like so blah, but I think looking at your student loan situation or your financial situation head on is not as scary as it may seem. I think people avoid a lot of financial things because they’re not sure how to tackle it or they’re overwhelmed by it. I promise you, you will feel so much better if we just have a plan from the beginning. Because if you ignore it for three years, which sometimes I see, then we’re three years behind when we finally do pick up and start focusing on it. Having a plan is important for your peace of mind for your future self. It’s self-care to have a plan now. I think that would be what I’d part on there.

33:33 Emily: Yeah. I absolutely totally, totally concur about having a plan. I know looking back at myself when I was in graduate school, not having a financial plan. When you have so little income, so little wiggle room, you know you can never do everything you want to do with your money. You know that you can’t pay off your student loan debt and invest and do all the saving and all the lifestyle. You just have to prioritize and then triage the situation. So that’s what a plan helps you do and thank you so much for that advice.

Where to Find Meagan Online

Emily: Meagan, if people have enjoyed this interview and they’ve learned a lot from you and they want to potentially work with you, how can they get in touch with you? Or where can they learn more?

34:08 Meagan: Yeah. So studentloanplanner.com is a wealth of information. We write a lot of blog posts about anything student loan related. We have a podcast. And if you wanted one-on-one help, you can schedule a consult through our website, studentloanplanner.com.

34:22 Emily: Yeah. Wonderful. There are so many free resources available and it’s really nice to know that there also professionals like Meagan backing that up and there for you, if you need those consultations. Meagan, thank you so much for giving me this interview and joining me today.

34:35 Meagan: Thank you. It was fun nerding out with you.

Outtro

34:38 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

 

How to Curb Your Impulse to Keep Up with the Joneses

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Joy Lere, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant on the danger of “keeping up with the Joneses.” Joy explains how emotionally unsatisfying and financially damaging trying to keep up with the Joneses is and that contentment can only come from within yourself. PhDs anticipating future income jumps would do well to put off lifestyle inflation for a least a few years after their salaries increase, which will give them more career and lifestyle choices in the future.

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Links Mentioned in This Episode

keep up with the Joneses

Teaser

00:00 Joy: If you can understand that this idea of peer comparison, it is going to be ever-present, and it’s not so much that the environment or the people around you need to change. What needs to flip is the script in your mind, in terms of the mentality you have when looking to the people in your life.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 12, and today my guest is Dr. Joy Lere, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant. Our topic is the danger of keeping up with the Joneses. Joy explains how emotionally unsatisfying, and financially damaging, trying to keep up with the Joneses is, and that contentment can only come from within yourself. PhDs anticipating future income jumps would do well to put off lifestyle inflation for at least a few years after their salaries increase, which will give them more career and lifestyle choices in the future. This interview really hit home for me, as I reflected on my post-PhD life and finances and where my family is headed next. As you might have garnered from listening to previous episodes of this podcast, I had a pretty good handle on my finances by the end of grad school.

01:30 Emily: And I was truly satisfied with my lifestyle. I had defeated my Joneses. Or so I thought. Then, my husband and I moved to Seattle. We rented a relatively inexpensive apartment in a wealthy neighborhood. There’s a lot of tech money in Seattle, as I’m sure you know. Suddenly, I wasn’t comparing my lifestyle to that of other graduate students in a medium cost-of-living city, but to other full-fledged adults in a high cost-of-living city. I distinctly remember my first and hardest-hitting Jones moment in Seattle. Shortly after we had our first child, I joined a mother support group in my neighborhood. Our first meeting was in the home of our group leader, and each participant would rotate hosting subsequent meetings. I remember walking into our group leader’s house, which was gigantic, gorgeous, and immaculate. It was somewhat shocking to me. Plus, during the meeting, our group leader casually mentioned she was in the process of custom building another house in our neighborhood to move to the next year.

02:33 Emily: My heart sank, knowing that I would eventually host these mothers and babies in my small, dingy, undecorated apartment. That cheap apartment had been a strategic financial choice upon our move. We were following the advice to live like a grad student so that we could keep our retirement savings rate high while I got my business off the ground and we adjusted to parenthood. Even though we had good reasons for living in that apartment, those reasons paled for me, when I saw where and how my group leader lived. And I started questioning all our choices. That was my first big post-PhD Jones moment. I got past that feeling, kind of, eventually, for that situation, but now my husband and I are in the early stages of searching for our very first home to purchase. And I can sense myself starting to become aware again of the Joneses. Since buying a house in Southern California is such a big, expensive decision, I know I have to be really conscious about those feelings and influences. That’s why the subject of this interview was so timely for me. I hope it will be for you as well. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Joy Lere.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:50 Emily: I am just delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Dr. Joy Lere. She is a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant, such an interesting combination. So, I’m really happy to have her on the podcast today. We’re actually going to be talking about keeping up with the Joneses. Or rather, how not to keep up with the Joneses. So, Joy, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

04:11 Joy: Absolutely. It is a joy and a privilege to be here with you today. My name is Joy Lere. I am a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant. So, essentially I am someone who as a clinician works where Freud meets finance. So, I live and work outside of Napa, California, and I’ve a telemedicine practice where I see patients for psychotherapy. And I also work in specializing in consultation within the finance industry. So within that role, I’m providing support, training, education, coaching, and psychotherapy also to financial planners and financial advisors, because there are a lot of really exciting things happening within the industry where there’s more and more attention being given to the fact that people’s relationship with their money is not just a matter of math or economic theory. Money itself is emotional currency. So, having an understanding of human psychology and how that drives financial decisions is really starting to be integrated more and more into the world of finance.

05:33 Emily: Yes. Thank you so much for that description. Yes, of course, I have observed this trend as well. And I’m really excited to have you on. Actually, I did an interview some time ago with Dr. Daniel Crosby. So, we’ll link that from the show notes as well, since that was on a similar topic.

05:47 Joy: He is a good friend and just, he’s fabulous.

Tell Us a Little More About Your Education

05:52 Emily: Oh yeah, it was a wonderful conversation. Would you also tell us a little bit more about your education, because you’ve spent some time in academia as well?

05:58 Joy: Yes. So, I obtained my master’s degree while living abroad in the UK for a couple of years. And I decided after that experience and after starting my clinical work in England, that I wasn’t quite yet ready to be done with school. So, my husband is in the military. We made our way back across the pond. And then I went to graduate school at George Washington University and obtained my doctorate in clinical psychology while I was there.

Can You Define “Keeping Up with the Joneses”?

06:33 Emily: Yeah. Wonderful. Okay. So, our topic for today, keeping up with the Joneses. Probably a phrase that maybe everyone’s heard in the audience, but can you give a little bit more of a fine point on the definition?

06:45 Joy: Absolutely. So, this is a phrase that’s popularized in society, and it really speaks to the way that people look around their social spheres and circles, and look oftentimes at their peers and kind of benchmark their lives and their decisions to that. So, they are seeing something, often an outside image or kind of a curated facade. I think certainly social media makes this even more complicated for people today. And then they think to themselves, “Well, if they have that or they are making that lifestyle choice, that must mean I can, or I should.” So then, they make decisions based on what they are seeing around them.

Does “Keeping Up” Make Anyone Happier?

07:43 Emily: Does attempting to keep up with Joneses actually make anyone happier? You know, we’ll address the financial component of that in a moment, but does it do anything for us emotionally or socially to try to keep up with the Joneses?

07:58 Joy: I think really, being in the comparison trap just keep someone emotionally stuck. Because what is not happening when you’re telling yourself, “I need to be, I need to be doing that. I need to be getting farther ahead,” is you aren’t focusing and being centered from a place of being grateful for what you have and really having a sense of contentment. And when you think about someone’s financial life, when there’s this constant search and drive and need for more and more and more, that can lead to dangerous, destructive places. Being on a hedonic treadmill like that can be exhausting. And the truth is that when a lot of times people think, “Well, I will eventually catch up,” but oftentimes the goalpost just keeps on moving.

09:01 Emily: I was just going to say that the phrase is keeping up with the Joneses, right? It’s not hanging out with the Joneses and being at the same level as the Joneses. It’s just like it implied in the phrase itself is a continual striving, as you were just saying, which sounds totally exhausting. I really like that you make the point that we can also move these goalposts on ourselves. Like yeah. Maybe you caught up with, you know, Jones number one over here. Well, that just means you’re going to switch your attention to Jones number two and try keeping up in some other area.

09:32 Joy: I tell people, throughout your life, there will always be Joneses there. You went to graduate school with them. You looked around there and you were like, “Well, they’re doing this. That means, naturally, that’s what I should be doing.” They are always going to be in your workplace. They’re going to be on whatever street you live. So, you moved to the bigger house, the newer neighborhood. Well then there’s going to be someone else who ultimately has a little bit more. So, if you can understand that this idea of peer comparison, it is going to be ever-present, and it’s not so much that the environment or the people around you need to change. What needs to flip is the script in your mind, in terms of the mentality you have when looking to the people in your life.

The Hedonic Treadmill

10:29 Emily: Yes, such a wonderful point. You mentioned the term hedonic treadmill a couple of minutes ago, and I’m betting not everyone in my audience knows what that is. So, can you explain that a little bit further?

10:42 Joy: This idea that often times we’re running a race, we’re going after more, something better. There’s a desire for enough. And people think they are moving closer to the mark, but really you are just exhausting yourself on a treadmill, and there’s never a finish line. So, when you are caught in this cycle, you’re just going to keep running. And it ultimately is never enough. I think, I encourage people to reflect on this idea of what is enough. Who decides what it is, how much it is, how do you know you have it? You know, even how someone answers that question is, is enough a number? Is it a sense of security? Does the outside world get to decide what enough is? Or is that something that you determine for yourself? No, this is, this is good. I can stop. I can breathe. And I don’t have to continue to feel the need to be amassing more.

11:55 Emily: Mhm. I’m currently reading the book Your Money or Your Life for the very first time. This is inside the Personal Finance for PhD’s Community. We have a book club, so I’m reading it for the book club.

12:06 Joy: That’s fabulous.

12:06 Emily: Yeah, I’m surprised it took me so long to read actually, because of course it has been out for a couple of decades. But anyway, the concept of enough figures very prominently, the argument that the authors are making in that book about having, as you were just saying, determining for yourself, and it’s really about self-reflection and it’s not at all about looking around you at what anybody else is doing. You know, what it is to be content, be full in a sense, like in terms of thinking about your appetite. You’re full, but you don’t want to stuff yourself. You don’t want to go beyond this, you know, level of fullness or contentness or enoughness because it’s damaging not only to your finances, but also to you as a person to, you know, as you were just saying, continually strive to go and beyond, beyond, beyond. One aspect of the hedonic treadmill idea that I understand at any rate is that, maybe it’s a little bit similar to like addiction or like getting into that, but what you need to feel a pleasure hit from spending becomes higher and higher and higher because you become adapted every new spending level.

13:10 Emily: You know, you get to a new spending level, you’re like, “Well, this is fantastic. I have all these new experiences and stuff. It’s wonderful.” And then suddenly it’s just normal and it’s just you again. It’s just you, yourself. And then you have to go to a higher spending level to get that hit again. And that’s the sort of a mountain climbing, like that’s kind of the treadmill aspect of it, is that correct?

13:28 Joy: Yes. Yes.

Keeping Up with the Joneses Affects Your Finances

13:31 Emily: So, we were just talking about how this is not ever going to be emotionally satisfying. What happens to your finances if you are striving to keep up with the Joneses?

13:40 Joy: I think it, peer comparison when it comes to finances is so complex. And oftentimes it is very problematic because peers give you permission to sometimes spend in ways that you ultimately can’t afford. And sometimes there’s pressure or there’s fear of missing out. Now, when we look at this idea and this concept of keeping up with the Joneses, when we look at the financial state of affairs of the average American family, who is indebted, over-leveraged, all of these things, if you are then trying to keep up with someone who is overextending, you are then overextending yourself even more. So, it just perpetuates this problem indefinitely. My great-grandmother who lived through the depression, had this phrase that I love. And I never met her, but it was something that was instilled in my mom. And it was this: “Just because they have it, does not mean they can afford it.”

Just Because They Have It, Does Not Mean They Can Afford It

14:53 Joy: And that is something that so many people confuse. They look at, “Well, this is the house they’re living in. This is the car they are driving. These are the vacations they are taking. And so that must mean like that’s okay.” What they don’t see is what goes on behind closed doors. They don’t see the physical, the psychological cost of the stress that comes with carrying debt. They don’t see the impact of the work stress of the employment situation that person feels like they are trapped in because of the lifestyle that they are living. A lot of that stuff happens behind closed doors. But I tell people, so part of my job as a therapist is–I love my job–so often, I wake up and I’m like, “I truly believe I have the best job in the world because I get to sit behind closed doors with incredibly bright, driven people who are having conversations they aren’t having with anyone else in their lives.” So, I’ve sat behind closed doors with the Joneses. And let me tell you, their lives are not as rich or pretty or neat as most people think when you just see a public-facing persona.

16:28 Emily: Yes. That’s a wonderful phrase from your great-grandmother. And actually, it reminded me of something that my pastor from my church in North Carolina was preaching a sermon one time and was talking about this concept of keeping up with the Joneses. And I remember him saying, you know, if you’re going to follow sort of the the Christian way of handling money, you know, there’s certain things in the Bible, the layout of how you’re supposed to do this. He says, you’re going to be living multiple steps behind who you perceive to be as your peers. You’re going to be living a step behind because you’re not going to be leveraged with debt, at least outside of your mortgage or whatever. You are going to be living in step behind because you’re going to be giving. You’re going to be living a step behind because you’re going to be saving for your future as well.

You’re Going to Be Living Three Steps Behind

17:12 Emily: So, he was like, “You’re going to be living three steps behind, you know, who you perceive to be your peers in terms of like your career or whatever it is.” And that has really stuck with me too, that like, yes, it just, as you were saying, you don’t know how other people are handling, you know, as an outsider, you don’t know what’s going on inside their homes and how they’re really managing to live the lifestyle that you can perceive. And, you know, you brought up social media earlier. We have so many more, I think, potential Joneses in our life right now, because we have access, in a way limited access, to a lot more people from maybe a lot of our different stages of life and even people you don’t know. So, I’m sure that this just exacerbates this entire problem.

17:50 Joy: Yes. And I love what you brought up. You brought up something so important about lifestyle choices. If you do the things that most people do, you are going to get the things that most people get. You’re going to get average. And right now, financially average in our country is not a pretty picture. So, it really requires people to step back and ask, “Okay, what do I really want? And what do I want long-term?” In order to get ahead, you have, especially early on, our little choices compound over time. So, I will often explain to clients and people, if you can make, and this is especially applicable to, to students, to professionals. A lot of times, if you are entering a kind of employment, or you’re graduating, you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to start living the doctor life.” No, hold on.

18:56 Joy: If you can give it a couple of years of living like you are a broke grad student and what you can do with the savings during that time, when a lot of your peers are starting to make very different choices, what that can lead to for you in the long-term is huge. But that requires being able to say, “No.” It requires being able to tolerate, okay. Maybe you’re going to miss out on some things. But, if you can be willing to do things differently than other people, you give yourself a chance at having something bigger and better that most people will never achieve.

Commercial

19:44 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, a book club, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

Present Lifestyle Choices Impact Your Future Comfort

20:49 Emily: I’m really glad that you took the conversation in this direction, because it’s exactly where I wanted to go as well. Talking about, you know, when you have these large income jumps, you know, okay for PhDs, you finished graduate school, maybe you’re moving up to a post-doc. Hopefully, a decent jump in income there. Okay, you’re moving out of the postdoc or directly out of the PhD, you’re getting into a proper job. Hopefully, a big jump there. And maybe, you know, throughout your career, potentially there could be other big jumps as you switch, you know, employers or whatnot. So, a lot of my audience is still in graduate school or is still in training. And so, they’re still anticipating and looking forward to those large income jumps in the future. And of course, the advice you just brought up, you know, there’s versions of it. You know, live like a grad student, live like a college student, live like a resident. It’s basically just, keep that lifestyle, or as close to that lifestyle as you can, from your prior earning stage for at least a little while into that next one. And then as you said, you know, this can do fabulous things to your finances. So, can you elaborate on that a little bit more?

21:45 Joy: Absolutely. And I want to explain. I think something that people often don’t fully understand or account for is in school, or maybe early in your career, you have a picture of, “This is what I’m going to want. I’m on this linear trajectory, professionally.” But things change. Life circumstances change. Sometimes your dreams, your desires, opportunities can lead to different places. And, if you have made financial choices so that you have the freedom and flexibility to change your mind, if you want to at a later time, and not be locked in because of the debt you have and the lifestyle that you have settled into, that gives you a ton of freedom. So, I just really emphasize to students that the things you are doing with your money now in these first years of your career are huge. So, if you can just hold on and be a little bit more conservative in some areas, that can have huge implications for your financial life later on.

Saving During Graduate School

23:11 Emily: Yeah. I actually want to give an example from my own life here. It a little feels like I’m tooting my own horn, but I think it does illustrate what you were just talking about. So, when my husband and I were in graduate school, we did our PhDs at the same time. So, we were both on stipends, same time. We saved, you know, I’m into personal finance, right? So like I was figuring this stuff out early. I was figuring out saving, investing and paying off debt and doing all these things. And so I started that during graduate school. Whereas a lot of people, either one have no opportunity to start saving or investing during graduate school, just completely off the table based on either their going into debt for their degrees, or they’re just simply not paid even a living wage. That was not our case.

23:50 Emily: We were very fortunate. So, we were doing that saving. We, one, could, but two, we took the initiative to do it. We were figuring that out at that time. By the time we finished graduate school, we had amassed quite a decent nest egg. And, you know, one, one attitude could have been during that time, “Well, you know, I may as well just spend what I have have, I don’t really need to save right now because I’m going to have this big income jump in the future. And, you know, it’s going to take care of itself at that time. I won’t worry about investing until, you know, later on.” But because we took that other route of starting as early as we could with, you know, saving and investing and so forth, we had a decent nest egg built up by the time we finished graduate school. That enabled one, my husband to take a job at a startup, which he had never anticipated doing and was completely, you know, really nervous about that.

24:30 Emily: We’re sort of conservative with our careers. And so we were like, “Wow, you know, this good job could go at any point.” But it was just such a perfect fit for him. We were like, “How can he pass this up?” You know, we’ll take the risk. We have the nest egg, we can do that. We can take that risk of him taking that kind of job. Secondarily, I was able to start my business, which meant, you know, just completely going off a different track from, you know, the normal job thing, which is a fantastic opportunity and similarly, very good fit for me. So, I feel like our life, you know, career satisfaction levels were much higher than they would have been had we not been in a financial position at that time to be able to make that choice. And the reason we were in that position was because years earlier we had started this process not really knowing that was how it’s going to work out. You know, we didn’t realize, you know, these opportunities came our way and we could take advantage of them because of the preparation we’d done before that point.

25:19 Joy: Absolutely.

How to Cultivate Contentment in the Now

25:21 Emily: So, I’m thinking about a graduate student, probably. Maybe a post-doc, who is currently maybe even practicing not keeping up with the Joneses. Because they probably have a lot of Joneses in their lives that they couldn’t possibly keep up with. Right? Like it’s just not even a feasible thing for them to do right now. So, what would you say to that person about how to still cultivate contentment in their life when they know they can’t even possibly play the game with the Joneses right now, and also how to maintain that once maybe they are able to get in the game once their income is higher?

25:57 Joy: I think, you know, this idea of game and even if we bring it back to the race. if you can understand everyone is playing a different game, and if you can focus on running your own race and just stay in your lane, that is going to set you up for success. Now, I don’t think that if you are not trying to keep up and you’re making a concerted effort around that, that doesn’t mean your life needs to be devoid of fun and human connection. I think, I encourage people to be creative. You can be the one driving the conversation, making suggestions. And the truth is, sometimes if you are maybe doing things or suggesting things to your social circle that are not going to be exorbitantly costly, there are probably going to be some people who are really relieved. Because here’s the thing. Everyone’s running this race.

27:04 Joy: And some people are more aware of it than others. Some people, based on their upbringing and what they bring to the table in terms of their own money scripts, and what gets activated for them around money, they may have different thoughts and feelings about it. But that’s one way to think about it. And you know, this transition when you do have more income, I think it’s important that it doesn’t become, you know, if you think about someone who’s been on a diet and then it’s like, everything is suddenly available, I’m just going to binge. If you can keep a mentality of moderation, that is going to serve you going forward.

Take Ownership of Social Spending

27:50 Emily: I love those two suggestions. And especially the first one around like, it’s sort of like, money decisions, let’s say about social spending with your peer group. They don’t have to happen to you, right? Like you can actually sort of take the wheel and say, at least some of the time, I’m going to be suggesting things to do that are within my budget. Like you said, probably some other people will be relieved. And so, you know, you can do a combination of planning things and maybe saying yes or no here or there to things that other people suggest. So that you’re not, you know, always, always saying no to everything, but yeah, you can keep it more within your range and steer things. I know, certainly for me in graduate school I found a group of friends that I was comfortable socializing with and we all sort of had the same manner of socializing that we enjoyed, and it was very inexpensive. And it was really good for all of us in that sense.

28:40 Emily: And so, you sort of find your people, is maybe one way. So like, there aren’t so many Joneses, so close to you in your life. I had a couple other ideas about how to like combat this, you know, impulse to keep up with the Joneses. One was to redefine what you’re jonesing for. So like instead of jonesing for the consumption aspects of using your money, Jones for like, “I’m going to max out that 401k,” like “I’m going to, you know, be striving”–if you want to strive for something–be striving for something that’s ultimately going to benefit your finances instead of, you know, working in the opposite direction for you.

29:17 Joy: Change your status symbols.

Happiness is Not Contingent on What You Are Chasing

29:20 Emily: Yes. Oh, that’s a great way of putting it. I love that. It’s very, you know, it’s millionaire next door. Right. So, try to be like that person. Are there any other like sort of behavioral finance tips that you would suggest for, you know, helping people achieve their financial goals without letting these Jones impulses kind of get in their way?

29:40 Joy: Well, I think just really paying attention to what you are benchmarking to, this idea of this is the baseline. I think that’s really important. As you think about and reflect on, I think developing financial self-awareness and doing some reflection and understanding about what gets activated for you with your money, and really starting to dig into some of the more core beliefs you carry about money and how that drives what you do with it. I think those are really important foundational places for people to start.

30:26 Emily: Yeah, I think going along with those exercises as well, and you just mentioned this, is sort of remembering where you’ve come from. Like remembering the influences, of course, that your parents have, and then maybe your peers, you know, through different stages of your life. And remembering like, especially once you’ve passed, like the graduate school stage, like, “Okay, back then I did live on this amount of money. I did have this size of home. I did do these things. Was I happy then? Was I content then? Why are things different now? Could they be more similar to how things were in the past?” I’m asking myself some of these questions now that I’m, you know, a few years out of graduate school.

31:02 Joy: If you are telling yourself, “I will be happy when,” and you are then looking to something in the future, I would really encourage you to go back into your history and think about this idea of happy. What is some other evidence you have that there have been other times when you’ve had that feeling that experience that you haven’t had that thing? So, happiness is not contingent on that which you are chasing.

The Power of “No”

31:34 Emily: Yeah. That’s such a, I think foundational point about happiness, that I’m only just sort of starting to learn myself now in my thirties. And I wish I had known it because I am the type of person who kind of always has goals and is always striving for something. And my husband definitely kind of complains and kind of ribs me for like always wanting the next thing. And why can’t you be satisfied now? And, I am starting to realize like that. Whoo. That’s just how I am. I need to really like, look at that because I’m never going to get there. Right? If that’s what I’m basing that on. Is there anything else you wanted to add, Joy, before we wrap up the interview here?

32:09 Joy: I think this idea of there’s a lot of power in saying no and having financial boundaries, that’s something I do a lot of talking with people about. I think a lot of things get in the way of people saying, “No.” There’s a fear of missing out. There’s a discomfort with what you are anticipating someone else’s reaction is going to be. And the truth is, I believe people would be healthier, wealthier, and less exhausted overall if they built that muscle of saying “No” more often. And again, that’s not saying no to everything. But if you are finding yourself in a situation in your gut where you’re like, “I’m going to say yes, but I really don’t want to do this.” Ask yourself why. And then what is getting in the way of your taking care of yourself? If it’s your energy, if it’s your finances, and what would need to happen in order for you to have the courage to say, “No?” And what is the cost to your yes? Be that financial, physical, psychological.

How To Connect with Joy Lere

33:27 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. How can people find out more about the work that you do? Or I don’t know, if they want to be a client of yours. Like how do people connect with you?

33:37 Joy: My website is my name. J O Y L E R E. Joylere.com. I am active on LinkedIn, Joy Lere Psyd, and also spin my creative wheels on Instagram a little bit, @ joylerepsyd, and also love to hang out on Twitter and connect with people there. Also, my handle is joylerepsyd.

Best Advice for an Early-Career PhD

34:02 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. That’s where we connected as well. So, final question here, Joy. What is your best financial advice for an early-career PhD? It could be something we’ve touched on in this interview, or it could be something else entirely.

34:14 Joy: My best advice is to do things different than most people around you. If you do that now, you will have things that no one else later on in their career will likely be able to accomplish and achieve.

34:36 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. Thank you so much for this interview and for joining me today.

34:39 Joy: Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Thanks for sharing your platform with me.

Outtro

34:44 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.