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This First-Year PhD Student Prioritizes Investing While on Fellowship

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In this episode, Emily interviews Michele Remer, a first-year PhD student at Michigan State University, about her financial goals for graduate school. Michelle graduated in spring 2020 and worked a few different jobs during the pandemic, so she was able to generate some savings and open a Roth IRA prior to starting grad school. Thanks to a summer 2022 internship and one-time bonus on top of her ongoing fellowship, Michele is in a strong financial position at the start of graduate school. Michele shares her investing goals and values and why she’s considering buying a house hack in the spring. She also breaks down her budget and shows how she’s keeping her large, necessary expenses under about 40% of her gross income.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

S13E8 Image: This First-Year PhD Student Prioritizes Investing While on Fellowship

Teaser

00:00 Michele: And then I also was able to start my program during the summer and I did an internship in D.C. which, technically, I wouldn’t be allowed to do because you are only supposed to, you can’t work more than 10 hours a week with your fellowship at Michigan State. But because it was part of a class, I was able to overcome that requirement. So, I had money from my internship to like live on in D.C. and then I also had that like fellowship money that I could use for like saving and investing.

Introduction

00:38 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 8, and today my guest is Michele Remer, a first-year PhD student at Michigan State University. Michelle graduated in spring 2020 and worked a few different jobs during the pandemic, so she was able to generate some savings and open a Roth IRA prior to starting grad school. Thanks to a summer 2022 internship and one-time bonus on top of her ongoing fellowship, Michele is in a strong financial position at the start of graduate school. Michele shares her investing goals and values and why she’s considering buying a house hack in the spring. She also breaks down her budget and shows how she’s keeping her large, necessary expenses under about 40% of her gross income. By the way, we recorded this interview in late October 2022, and since its recording, there has been a lot of student loans news. As of November 27, 2022, the day I’m recording this, the $10k or $20k degree of cancellation that Michele and I discuss has been blocked by court challenges, which are likely to be resolved in the Supreme Court. Additionally, the administrative forbearance has been extended into summer 2023.

02:26 Emily: Speaking of the possibility of home ownership in 2023, Sam Hogan is now offering lunch-and-learn seminars on how graduate students and postdocs can purchase homes. Sam is a mortgage originator specializing in graduate students and PhDs, an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs, and my brother. He’s been a guest on this podcast numerous times, most recently Season 13 Episode 1. If you live in a city where graduate students and postdocs sometimes buy homes, please consider arranging for Sam to come to your campus for a lunch and learn on mortgages and the home-buying process. He’s put these on for a couple of groups this fall and has more booked the spring. He gives a short presentation and then answers questions about individual borrowing scenarios. Sam has done a ton to help grad students and postdocs with usual academic incomes like fellowships and summer pay gain access to mortgages so they can realize their dreams of home ownership. You can reach Sam about the possibility of coming to your campus—or with your own mortgage question—at [email protected] or 540-478-5803. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e8/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Michele Remer.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:03 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Michele Remer. She is a first-year graduate student at Michigan State University, and we are going to be talking today about kind of what her finances look like as a first-year graduate student and what her plans are for the future. So, Michele, it’s a delight to have you on. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

04:24 Michele: Of course. Thank you for having me by the way. So, as you said, I’m a first-year PhD student. I’m in the Fisheries and Wildlife Department at Michigan State. And I got my undergraduate degree from a small liberal arts college in Minnesota back in 2020. So, I’m a pandemic graduate. And then I was supposed to go into the Peace Corps but it ended up not working out due to the pandemic once again. So instead, I did some other seasonal jobs, which included AmeriCorps. I also want to preface this by saying that I have had some assistance from my parents for expenses in college and post-graduation as well.

05:03 Emily: Yeah, let’s talk about that more. So, it sounds like you had about two years between your graduation college and when you started graduate school. I’d love to learn more about those jobs that you did during that time and kind of what your finances looked like through that period.

05:17 Michele: Yeah, so my first, well I graduated 2020 and I still had my job through my university. It was a GIS job so I was able to do it remotely during the pandemic. So, I was just living at home with my parents and didn’t have any big expenses there, which was really nice. And then I got a job with AmeriCorps in a Conservation Corps out in western Utah. So, that’s where I went next. And that one was <laugh>. I was basically just breaking even for that job because it was volunteer and it was also a pretty low like stipend that we received. But I was able to get free housing, and they gave us like a free tent. I just had to provide the gear and a plane ticket. So, I think it worked out pretty well for me, especially because with the pandemic I was getting stir crazy in my house so I welcomed the opportunity to go somewhere new during that. When everyone else was kind of stuck inside. I was able to be out in the woods and <laugh> doing conservation projects.

06:26 Emily: And was it like a full year? Was it a full year that you were with AmeriCorps?

06:30 Michele: So, this was about seven months was my term. And then also for AmeriCorps, you get, they call it education award. That’s what it’s called. So, I got about $3,000 for my education that I was able to put towards my student loans.

06:47 Emily: Oh nice. That’s a good flexible usage.

Money Mindset Coming Into Grad School

06:52 Emily: Okay, so we’ve had I think one previous guest who was in AmeriCorps, if we can find the episode, it’ll be in the show notes. But I’m very interested in like your mindset I guess going into graduate school, having just had that AmeriCorps experience. Because I know that, I mean as much as graduate student stipends need to be higher, AmeriCorps is like whoa, you are really, as you said, it’s kind of a volunteer position that they basically just kind of give you housing and food money, right? So, can you talk about yeah, your mindset coming into graduate school, having had that experience with respect to your finances?

07:25 Michele: Yeah, I think it was actually really helpful for me personally because, so my undergrad, it was a residential school so like all of my food and stuff was like at a cafeteria and everything and included. And with this job, I like had to like cook dinner and everything. And so, that really taught me how to like meal prep and just like living on such a low wage, I was able to be really smart about like how I was handling my groceries and everything. And then like while we were on project, like, so we would work eight days and then we would get six days off. So for those eight days they provided all the food. So basically you were just like, didn’t have any expenses for eight days of the week and then, or eight days at a time and then six days you would have expenses, but we were able to like also have leftover food from that. So, it was this kind of like, and I also don’t really buy a lot of other things. Like I still to this day I basically just buy food and that’s my only other expense besides like housing with like occasional other like luxuries now that I have some more money. But yeah, so I think it was a challenge but it actually kind of set me up well for grad school.

Stipend at Michigan State

08:42 Emily: Yeah, very interesting. So, give us a picture of your finances when you started at Michigan State. So like, you know, did you have any assets? Did you, you already mentioned student loans, maybe you had other liabilities as well. And also what is your stipend at Michigan State?

08:57 Michele: Yeah, so my stipend first of all is $30,000. And I also got pretty lucky too because I got a $5,000 fellowship for getting accepted into the environmental science and policy program here. So, I can kind of lump that on top. And then I also was able to start my program during the summer and I did an internship in D.C. which, technically, I wouldn’t be allowed to do because you are only supposed to, you can’t work more than 10 hours a week with your fellowship at Michigan State. But because it was part of a class, I was able to overcome that requirement. So, I had money from my internship to like live on in D.C. and then I also had that like fellowship money that I could use for like saving and investing.

09:51 Emily: So, am I understanding that you were being double-paid during that time? You were receiving your fellowship and your internship pay?

09:58 Michele: Yeah, I was. The reason why like we decided to do the fellowship. Like I was talking to the administrators about this and everything and the class, because technically, the internship was part of a course. And so there was like a $2,600 tuition fee that I would’ve had to pay if I was just doing the internship. So this way the fellowship, because the fellowship also covers my tuition. So, in this way it covered my tuition and then I also was able to receive the money, the stipend money with that.

10:29 Emily: Nice. It sounds amazing. And that $5,000 that you mentioned, so your sort of baseline, standard stipend on the fellowship is $30,000 per year. Did you get that $5,000 as like a lump, it’s kind of like a bonus, like a lump sum at the start, is that right?

10:42 Michele: Yeah, it’s supposed to be a lump sum. I actually haven’t received it yet, but yeah, I think that’s just going to be like a lump sum to my account once they process it.

Finances: Assets and Liabilities

10:52 Emily: Okay. This is great. I so wish that more or all graduate students could get started with like, hey here’s some money just like for you to have for savings because you’re probably going to need this down the line. Because the stipend is really not, you know, necessarily enough to generate a decent savings rate, although, you know, we’ll get to yours and what your plans are with that. So let’s, if you don’t mind, could we share some numbers, like what assets did you have at the start of graduate school? What liabilities did you have?

11:16 Michele: Yeah, so I think I came in, so the AmeriCorps job that I had, I finished that. I did that right after college. So, I took another seasonal job where I was able to minimize my expenses a lot more and then I had another part-time job before starting. And I think the best thing that allowed me to build up savings was that I like basically reduced my housing expense. Like every time I got a new job it was either like free or it was like max $300 a month. So, I was doing really well in that area. So then I was able to, I had about $6,000 in my Roth coming in to grad school. And then I also have, let’s see, I guess for my other assets I just have like, oh I also just put in $2,000 into I-bonds too for my student loans after I graduate.

12:11 Michele: And then I also have some other savings just from, because I was saving up more money to pay off my loans as well. But now with the pandemic or the student loan forgiveness, I should be sitting in a much better place because after my education award using that and then the 10 grand that I’ll get from student loan forgiveness, I’ll be in a really good spot. And so, now that’s freed up a lot more money that I was going to put towards my loans because I’m super debt-averse, so I had saved up all this money to pay off my debt right away.

12:45 Emily: I see. I want to talk more about the student loans in just a second, but you don’t have any other debt, I would take it then, aside from the student loans?

12:52 Michele: No, no. Like I have a car, but it’s paid off. And yeah that was my only other sort of I guess liability since I don’t have a home or anything.

13:05 Emily: Yeah. Okay. So I want to point out for the listeners that we were recording this in October, 2022. So by the time this comes out, I’m hoping that people will have received the cancellation but as of the time that we’re talking, I don’t think anyone has started to receive it yet, although the application is open. So yeah, hopefully in the coming months. Did you already apply Michele?

13:24 Michele: Yeah, I did. I signed up for the email alerts. I was one of the first people, I think.

13:28 Emily: Okay, perfect. So, your cancellation amount hopefully will come through before the end of 2022 is the idea I think. Yeah. And so, and the rest of your student loans, the ones that weren’t being taken care of by these other sources, are they just going to be in deferment during graduate school? Or are you going to work on paying it down?

13:43 Michele: Yeah, I only took out subsidized loans, so they’ll be in deferment.

13:48 Emily: Okay, perfect. Yeah, for anyone listening, subsidized loans, well, if they’re in deferment you’re not going to make payments, and then if they’re subsidized the government pays the interest on your behalf so they won’t start accruing interest until when you come out of deferment, presumably after you graduate. And it’ll be pretty easy to hopefully take care of them at that point. So, that sounds awesome.

Making Investing a Priority

14:04 Emily: Okay, so you have some savings, you have started your Roth IRA, you bought some I-bonds, that’s great. So, let’s talk more about this investing situation. I understand you want to continue investing during graduate school. Why are you making that a priority?

14:18 Michele: Yeah, I think it’s a priority for me because I want to have the flexibility to take whatever jobs I want. And so, like with the AmeriCorps thing, I was able to take that job because, well for one, the student loan payments were on pause and it was kind of just like a good opportunity for that point in my life. But I also want to be able to take other opportunities that may not pay me as much because I’m really passionate about doing like environmental jobs that sometimes you don’t really get that high of a salary for. And so, I just want to make sure that I’m in a good financial spot in order to take those positions that I want.

14:58 Emily: So, is the idea that you’re going to start saving and investing for retirement now because perhaps at some later points in your life your salary won’t be really necessarily much higher than it is now? Or is it to be building up assets so that later you don’t have the pressure as much of having to save, you know, so much for retirement later on? It could be both, but I’m curious about your decision-making here.

15:21 Michele: I would say it’s both. I think, too, just everything I’ve read about personal finances, it’s time in the market over timing the market, and so I wanted to start as soon as possible so that I don’t have to worry about like starting after grad school. And like maybe if I don’t get a very high-paying job and I still like can’t contribute as much as I want to, this starting early allows me to have much more time to like accrue interest and just a bigger retirement savings account and that also would let me be more flexible in case I need to take like a career break of some kind or anything like that.

16:04 Emily: Yeah, I have to say, like so I’m 37 now, I’ve been out of graduate school for eight years about, and this is really like I can already see this playing out in my own life because I did start saving into a Roth IRA or investing when I was like 22, right out of college. And it’s really like because of some other stuff going on in like my and my husband’s financial life, like we, you know, saved diligently during graduate school. It was never, I’d never even maxed out my IRA so it wasn’t even like a large dollar amount, but for a graduate student it was a lot. And that portion of our portfolio in the time since then, like it’s a really big portion of our portfolio even though we have started since buying our house like last year we’ve really ramped up our retirement contributions because we no longer had like the down payment savings to be considering. But it’s like still amazing how much of our portfolio has just been those long time ago contributions that have had plenty of time to compound. And even though we’re saving a lot right now, and in the decades to come, like it’s still going to be a huge part of our portfolio despite being you know, dollar amount-wise not that much in contribution. So, I really commend you for getting started with this early. Is it your goal to max out every year? Like what number have you put around how much you’re going to contribute?

17:19 Michele: Yeah, I’m already maxing out every year so I put in $500 a month automatically so that I don’t have to like worry about forgetting doing it. And then I also am planning on increasing next year since they just announced that it’s going to be $6,500 instead of $6,000.

Getting Started with Investing

17:39 Emily: And many of the listeners who are, you know, considering getting started with investing or trying to get started now might be curious like how did you exactly get started? Like where did you choose to house your money and you know, what do you invest in? Obviously you’re not giving anyone advice but just like the path that you took.

17:54 Michele: Yeah, so for me I really wanted to make sure that I was going to be investing in funds that I believed in, like ethical investing for me. So, to do that I chose Fidelity as my I guess like taxable or tax advantaged account that I wanted to use. I’ve since learned that Vanguard has lower cost like target date funds if you’re interested in those. But I think Fidelity is a good one for graduate students because they have more fractional investing so you can invest with as little as like $10 a month, but for Vanguard you need to have I think a minimum of a thousand. So that’s why I chose Fidelity. And then as for the funds, I just chose ones that were offered by Fidelity because that those have lower expense ratios. And then also I chose environmental funds so there’s like, they have a US Sustainability Index Fund, International Sustainability Fund and then an Alternative Energy Fund. Plus some other ones. I got a little trigger happy when I was first starting out but yeah.

19:06 Emily: Okay. It sounds like though, are you like a hundred percent in equities with this with your IRA investments?

19:13 Michele: Yeah, so I have mostly stock funds right now since I’m still pretty young and I can afford to be more aggressive. I do have one bond fund which I’ve learned as I’ve been researching more that you want to have more bond funds in your Roth IRA cause it’s a tax managed account and so if I start a taxable brokerage account then I’ll switch to more stocks in that one.

19:38 Emily: Yes, this is asset location optimization, this is a really advanced strategy. But just in case anyone, any listener doesn’t want to put as much thought <laugh> as Michele has into this process, I mean it’s great to put thought into it but if you just want to get started and don’t have the time right now, whatever you choose, as long as it’s like broadly pretty appropriate, like you were just saying. Largely stocks, you know because you’re just starting out and you have a long timeline to retirement. What’s most important at this point is just to get started. And your exact asset allocation and everything, you can figure that out down the line. Because right now, the way that your portfolio is growing is mostly by your contributions <laugh> later on, you know, a couple decades from now, it’s mostly going to be growing because of the compounding interest. But for now, it’s really your contribution. So even if you’re not like a hundred percent the most optimized in what you’ve chosen, it’s okay. It’s really the thing is just to get started and to get that nice savings rate going like Michele has with her, you know, $500 per month current target. So, that sounds awesome. And are you also doing any other kinds of investing outside of your Roth IRA?

Investing Outside of Roth IRA

20:46 Michele: Yeah, so right now, like I said before, I have the I-bonds. So, my goal is to have about I think maybe like $4,000 in I-bonds so that hopefully the interest will accrue enough that when I graduate I can take those out and pay for the rest of my student loans. And then I’m also looking into doing a taxable brokerage account but I’m still exploring that because I’m still figuring out how the taxes would work on that.

21:17 Emily: Sure. Would that also be for long-term investing like for retirement? Or would it be maybe for like a shorter-term goal? Nearer-term goal?

21:24 Michele: I think that would be a longer-term goal just because I don’t want to have to worry about like taking it out and losing money because I didn’t like pick the right investment. So, I would rather leave it in there for retirement.

21:39 Emily: You’re actually taking a fairly similar approach to what my husband and I did when we started graduate school. We, as I said, we had our Roth IRA investments going at a certain rate. And then we also, I had student loans as well that were subsidized during graduate school. And so, initially I was just like, okay, forget about those. Like I don’t even need to think about those. Not like you’re doing, you’re planning from the beginning but at some point along the way in graduate school I realized, oh it would be nice to have money set aside to pay this off once they come out of deferment. And so, that became a goal as well for us. And then we also opened a taxable brokerage account. So, lots of different kind of layers to this.

Union Efforts to Obtain 403(b)

22:13 Emily: Okay. Is there anything else you want to share about your investments?

22:17 Michele: I guess I also want to, I’m part of the union here on campus now. I’m like our department representative, and one thing that I want to work with them on is getting a 403(b) account for grad students at Michigan State. Because I know that there are some other schools, a lot of schools don’t have them for grad students, but there are schools that do and I think that that would be something that would be really beneficial, not only for the grad students but also for the university to attract more people to come there. So, I think that that’s something that we could work on together to hopefully achieve <laugh>.

22:56 Emily: Yeah, that would be really exciting. I definitely want to hear an update from you about that. I mean I hope you’re successful certainly, but even if you’re not, I would love to know why like what their reasons are for, you know, not including graduate students. Because as you said, in very few places graduate students are included, and I don’t really know why they would bother like excluding them really.

23:16 Michele: Yeah, I could see maybe like, I know that the ones I’ve been looking at, they don’t provide a match. But I think they already have like a 403(b) set up for like employees. So, I think just like allowing grad students to open an account even if you don’t do a match, I think it would still, I think that would be pretty easy to do, but I don’t know. I haven’t looked into it super far yet.

23:38 Emily: A match would be, I would be shocked if I ever <laugh> Yeah. If I ever saw a match for a graduate student. Even postdocs oftentimes don’t get matches. Some of them do, especially if they’re like state employees. But yeah just the first step of like, because when I read these like plans and so forth, because I often do this with schools that I give seminars at. I’ll go into and just do a little check and see if students might have the opportunity to contribute to a 403(b). And most of them say explicitly students cannot contribute or you have to have at least a 50% appointment and they, you know, put all the students at 0.49% appointments. They have these kinds of like workarounds to specifically exclude graduate students. But why? I don’t know, is it just an administrative burden for them? I really don’t know why because I’m sure there wouldn’t be that many graduate students who would, you know, elect to use it even if they had the option. Although even just, I mean psychologically, just knowing that you had the option would actually help, I think. Students start thinking about, oh is retirement something I should be preparing for in this stage of my life? So, I love this idea, and I really want to hear an update about it.

24:41 Michele: Yeah, I think that would also maybe help like with negotiations for like increasing stipends as well.

24:50 Emily: Alright. Okay, great. To be followed up on.

Commercial

24:55 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! I’m hard at work behind the scenes updating my suite of tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022. These pre-recorded educational workshops explain how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. For the 2022 tax season starting in January 2023, I’m offering three versions of this workshop, one each for U.S. citizen/resident graduate students, U.S. citizen/resident postdocs, and non-resident graduate students and postdocs. That third workshop is brand-new this year, and I’m very excited about it. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the end users, graduate students and postdocs, can access them for free. Please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, etc. to request that they sponsor one of my tax preparation workshops for you and your peers. I’d love to receive a warm introduction to a potential sponsor this month so we can hit the ground running in January serving those early bird filers. You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Now back to our interview.

Budget Breakdown

26:36 Emily: Okay, so we’ve talked about your investing goals. How are you formulating your budget to support those goals and to support all the other things you want to be doing in your life right now?

26:47 Michele: Yeah, so actually, the reason why I want to do a budget breakdown is because I’m really bad at actually doing a budget, so this helped me to track my spending. So, right now, I guess like my fixed costs, so my rent, I’m living with two roommates. So I have, my portion of the rent is $375 a month. And then with like utilities they’re kind of high here so I’d say that brings me to like between like $450 to $500 for my portion total, sorry, when I add rent and utilities <laugh>.

27:27 Emily: Just to interrupt, because that is such a low amount of rent, I have not heard a rent amount that low in a long time. Do you have your own bedroom or are you sharing a bedroom?

27:35 Michele: No, I have my own room and then it’s actually like a really nice setup because it’s a house, and so we still have like our laundry and like a dishwasher and like a yard. So yeah, when I found this place I was like, this is great. <Laugh>.

27:50 Emily: Is that through a private landlord?

27:52 Michele: Yeah.

27:53 Emily: Okay. Yeah, I’m always curious in different cities about like, where can you get the best deal? Is it going to be a corporate place, is it going to be, you know, a mom-and-pop landlord? So yeah, that’s great. Did you find this house? Or did these roommates exist and you found the room?

28:06 Michele: So, my roommates are both also in, not my department but a similar department to me. So, they had sent out like an e-mail on the listserv, and so I reached out to them through that.

Food and Furniture

 28:18 Emily: Amazing. Love it. Okay. What’s your next expense?

28:22 Michele: Yeah, so I guess my next biggest expense would be my food which I kind of just lumped together, like going out to eat and groceries. So, I guess my first month it was $450 and then my second month was $385, so I guess roughly $410 right now. And then also with my moving, I didn’t bring any furniture with me so I actually got pretty good deals on all of them. So my total for that was $170.

29:01 Emily: You spent $170 in total on furniture? Was it just like a mattress or like what?

29:07 Michele: No, I got like someone was selling their bed at a rummage sale, so I got that pretty cheap. And then I got a desk, a chair, and two dressers. Yeah, Facebook Marketplace.

Transportation

29:21 Emily: I’m just delighted by this great job. <Laugh> Yeah, Facebook Marketplace. Okay, great. Yeah, have you incurred any other expenses? I think you said earlier you basically only buy like housing and food, so what else is on your list?

29:35 Michele: <Laugh> and then I guess like transportation. So, my gas money and then I’m flying home for the holidays and I’m also going to be taking the train home so I have to like buy those tickets. So, for this month it was like $282 and then last month it was like $110 for gas. And then I guess too, one other thing I should mention is I like bike to the university so that I don’t have to buy the parking pass and I can just park for free at my house when I go to the store and all that stuff, so.

30:19 Emily: So, I think we’ve covered the big three, right? Housing, food and transportation. You mentioned that you own your car outright, so you know, you’ll pay insurance on that but not a whole lot in terms of fixed costs. But even just with those three, I think you’re still under a thousand dollars a month probably. Which is quite reasonable given your gross salary, let’s just say it’s $30,000 per year. $2,500 per month. So, keeping your like larger necessary expenses under 40% of that is great. You’re doing very well. What are you doing with the rest of it? Like are you choosing to spend discretion early? Or is this just going to go into investments and savings?

Discretionary Funds

31:00 Michele: I’m still trying to figure that out. I guess I also have had like different like fees come up just from like, so I’m trying to figure how to incorporate that into my budget from like the TSO and different organizations on campus. And then I’ve just like since moving, I’ve been like finding little things that I like want to get. Like I just got some new headphones and needed to replace like my watch band and everything. So, I still don’t know how to budget the rest of my money just because I don’t like have a good grasp on it yet, but I’m hoping that I could spend like $200 a month, like discretionary and then just like either invest or save the rest of it.

31:51 Emily: Yeah. Given how low you’re keeping your fixed expenses, especially your housing and this like very decent fellowship, yeah it seems like you have a lot of choice over what you can do with that excess cash flow, so that’s great. I don’t, you know, many graduate students are not in such a fortunate position. That sounds awesome. Does this fellowship last the entire time you’re in graduate school? Or is your stipend expected to like drop at some point?

32:14 Michele: So, for this fellowship, it covers the first and the fifth year. But then like you’re supposed to work with your department to find funding for the middle three years. So, I’m supposed to always have like, at least in my offer letter it said I’m always supposed to have like the base rate somehow.

32:31 Emily: Which is 30,000 per year.

32:33 Michele: Yeah.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

38:34 Emily: Okay, so let’s finish up, Michele, with the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we have touched on already in the episode or could be something completely new.

38:49 Michele: Yeah, I think my best financial advice would be to automate everything as much as possible so that you don’t miss payments or if you are investing you don’t miss your investment goals. I know most credit cards you can set up an automatic payment so that you don’t miss that at all and then you can also link your accounts together so that you can like send money from your checking account to your savings account automatically so that you don’t miss anything or spend the money that you wanted to save. And I think this also can help with fixing like if you have any problems with like overspending or just like if you get super busy in your PhD like you probably are, then you don’t have to worry about like saving your money.

39:34 Emily: I love that advice. I totally concur. It took me some time, I think, to trust myself with automation, but I’m really glad that I got there. Was there anything that you wanted to add about your bank that you wanted to say?

39:47 Michele: Yeah, I did. So, I highly recommend reading I Will Teach You to Be Rich by Ramit Sethi. I think that’s how you say his last name. Because he gives a lot of recommendations for personal finance in general but for banking. So, like I just opened up the checking account that he recommended, which is called the I think it’s the Schwab High Yield Checking account and you get a brokerage account with that, but you don’t have to invest in it if you don’t have the money or if you don’t want to invest with them. But that checking account gives you 0.4% interest, which is like awesome. And then you also get ATM reimbursement everywhere and you also, I don’t think there’s like overdraft fees. So yeah, it’s just a great account. And then also for savings accounts, he recommends like I open a Capital One 360, and there’s also like an Ally Bank account that you can get like over 2% interest right now. Yeah, because I was looking into the Aspiration account because of their, they don’t lend to fossil fuel companies, but the downside of that is I heard a lot of people talking about how they like couldn’t get their money out and so that kind of scared me a little bit, but I might look into them again once they’re more established because they’re a pretty new bank.

41:06 Emily: Yeah. That’s good to hear. And thank you so much for the recommendation of the book, I Will Teach You to Be Rich. There’s actually a 10th anniversary edition that came out, I want to say within the last year or two. So, recommendations like banks, like I’m sure those have all been updated in the new edition, so if you’re looking for that kind of recommendation, you should definitely get the new edition and not the original edition from like 10 plus years ago. Or I would imagine you can just go to his website, which is probably, I Will Teach You to Be Rich or Ramit Sethi or something like that. And he’ll have those kinds of recommendations, but that’s awesome. And yeah, I think, I read that book again recently after the new edition came out and it’s great. It’s very, very direct and actionable and he’s so confident in what he tries to teach you. So like, it’s really compelling, it’s a compelling book. And a previous podcast guest mentioned that reading that book was like her sort of catalyst for like starting to get her personal finances under control. We’ll link that episode as well in the show notes. But I think it had to do with banking. I think the first thing she did was change her bank and felt really like great about that decision and like just sort of snowballed that energy like going forward. So, that’s awesome. Thanks for the recommendation.

42:10 Michele: Yeah, no problem. Yeah, the banking was really helpful, too. Just using like an online bank that doesn’t have as many like brick and mortar locations, they save a lot of money and give it back to you. So, that was a really helpful tip from him.

42:21 Emily: Totally. I started using an online or an internet-only bank I think about a year after I graduated from college when I knew like I’m going to move for grad school and then I’m probably going to move again. And then maybe, you know, I just saw a lot of moves like in my future and didn’t want to be sort of tethered to like regional, you know, availability of brick and mortar banks. So, all great suggestions. Michele, it’s been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for volunteering to be on the podcast!

42:45 Michele: Of course. Thank you for having me!

Outtro

42:51 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Financial Advice for Newly Hired Academics and PhDs

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Inga Timmerman, an associate professor of finance and financial planning at Cal State Northridge and financial planner specializing in academics. Emily and Inga discuss in depth the financial transition from graduate school/postdoc to faculty member (or into anther type of post-PhD job), from maximizing benefits to optimizing taxes to budgeting for a new city. Inga shares excellent tactical advice and mindset shifts for someone experiencing a large income increase. She advises everyone to work with a financial planner and ballparks how much it will cost to get the right type and amount of advice for that stage.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

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Teaser

00:00 Inga: The best time to address those is before you get your first paycheck. Because somehow once you start getting money, that money disappears. And we used to live on so little money in the PhD, and somehow we survived. And now we make 3, 4, 5 times as much, and we still don’t have enough. So, you do have to make a few decisions.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 12, Episode 3, and today my guest is Dr. Inga Timmerman, an associate professor of finance and financial planning at Cal State Northridge and financial planner specializing in academics. Inga and I discuss in depth the financial transition from graduate school/postdoc to faculty member (or into another type of post-PhD job), from maximizing benefits to optimizing taxes to budgeting for a new city. Inga shares excellent tactical advice and mindset shifts for someone experiencing a large income increase. She advises everyone to work with a financial planner and ballparks for us how much it will cost to get the right type and amount of advice for that stage.

01:42 Emily: As a listener to this podcast, I’m guessing that you listen to other podcasts as well, perhaps even other podcasts targeted to graduate students and PhDs. I’m a big podcast listener as well, and I’d love to hear your recommendations in that category. You can reach me over email, [email protected], or on Twitter, @PFforPhDs. In fact, if you would like to hear me interviewed on another podcast or another podcaster interviewed on my podcast, please set up an email or Twitter introduction for us! Thank you! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s12e3/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Inga Timmerman.

Would You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:37 Emily: I am so excited to share today’s interview with you. We have on the podcast today, Dr. Inga Timmerman. She is an associate professor of finance and financial planning at Cal State Northridge, and she is also a financial planner. And she has a PhD herself, so she’s like triply qualified to be on the podcast. So, Inga, it’s such a delight to have you! Would you please give the audience a little bit more background about yourself, your education, your career?

03:01 Inga: Very happy to be here, Emily. Thanks for having me here! So, I had a real job out of college at 22. I used to work 80, 90 hour weeks and discovered pretty fast that a career in corporate finance and investment banking is not really what I want to do in life long-term. I did for about five years. And then the school where I did my undergrad called me and said, “Hey, would you like to teach for us? Do you have an MBA?” Like, yeah, I do. “Okay. Come and teach a few classes.” And I really, really liked it, but I realized that to really make a living out of being a professor, I needed to get a PhD. So, when I was 27, I quit my job. I looked at all the PhD programs I got into, and it was 2008 financial crisis, 2009, everybody under the sun was going to get a PhD.

03:46 Inga: So, there’s a lot of competition. And I decided to go to the school that would get me out the fastest, because I was like, every year I’m not working, I’m losing like a whole bunch of money, so we’ve got to get out of here. So, I went to Florida Atlantic University in South Florida in Boca Raton, and I did my PhD there. And afterwards, my first placement was as an assistant professor at Oregon State University. My husband was working in Los Angeles at the time. The commute was too much. So, two years later, I moved as an assistant professor to Cal State Northridge, which is in the Los Angeles county. And I’ve been there since. So, it’s been about seven, eight years.

04:22 Emily: Wow. We’ve already learned a lot just from that background story. So many good financial insights that you just shared. Incredible! And tell me a little bit more about the being a financial planner side of things, not just being a professor.

04:34 Inga: So, about when I moved to Cal State Northridge, I was hired to do financial planning. It’s a very long story on the side about how finance and financial planning fight and what’s going on there. Not worth it now, but I ended up teaching in the finance department, financial planning. And one of the things I always wanted to do is practice financial planning. So, I decided to open my own firm back in 2016, and I’ve been running it for the last five, six years, and I specialize in financial planning for academics. So, a lot of my clients are current academic academics.

Financial Profile of Academic Clients

05:05 Emily: So perfect. And the reason that we met was that another podcast interviewee, Dr. Leslie Wang, you’re her financial planner, and she recommended that you also come on the podcast. So, I don’t know if that episode’s going to air before or after this one, but check that one out as well. So, that is how Inga and I were referred to one another. So, this is really, really exciting. I’m so pleased to learn that you, you know, specialize in academics. I say PhDs here a lot on the podcast, that that’s kind of my specialty area. So, when you’re working with academics, is there like a rough, like financial profile that you have discerned from the people who come to you, maybe versus like the average person who would seek out financial planning? Like how are academics and PhDs financially different?

05:48 Inga: Well, there are two different types of academics who will come to me. The ones who are about to graduate and are getting their first job. For some of them, they’re going from like $20,000 to $150,000. It’s a huge jump in income. And they’re like, what am I going to do with all this money? What do I do? So, that’s really a good point to come. The other ones are people who’ve been around for a while and they accumulate enough assets. So, they have a lot of complicated situations to solve and they’re just coming, “Okay, tell me, am I okay to retire? Am I okay here? What am I doing? So, those are the two big buckets, and you do want to go to somebody who actually understands your lifestyle and what’s going on. Because when you go from assistant to associate, there’ll be a bunch of money coming in.

06:26 Inga: There’ll be some decisions to be made. When you first get your job, a lot of the systems are still on the dual pension versus 403(b) type, and you have to make the decision. And once you miss it, there’s no going back in most cases. So, there are a few very specific things associated with academics. I think it’s important to find somebody who actually knows those. The second part of it is that I’m always willing to provide you all kinds of advice you didn’t ask me about outside finances. Like you should move to a different place because your life would be better and cheaper if you do that. So, I think it just, it’s easier for me to work with people just like me, which happens to be somebody who is in their forties, has a few kids, and just trying to go through the financial academic life path.

07:11 Emily: I love that you mentioned, in particular, those two sort of time points when it really makes sense to seek out financial planning. That like, I’m about to start my high-earning career and want to make sure I’m set up to go forward in the right way. But also you get to see people and the decisions they’ve made, right? And the accumulation of those decisions by that point. So, I’m sure that your younger clients are benefiting from you working with your older clients as well to sort of steer them in the right way.

Money Mindset During Academic Career Transition

07:37 Emily: So, you mentioned you yourself have been through like this massive income decrease to go to graduate school and then a massive, I hope, income increase coming out of graduate school, and that that’s something you advise, you know, PhDs and people entering academia as, you know, with a full-time job on. So like, when you’re looking at people in that transition from graduate student or postdoc into like a professorship, have you seen any like money mindset issues, commonly, in those people that you’d like to tell our audience more about like what they are and maybe how to address them?

08:08 Inga: There are a few things that come to mind immediately, and the best time to address those are before you get your first paycheck. Because somehow once you start getting money, that money disappears. And we used to live on so little money in the PhD, and somehow we survived and now we make 3, 4, 5 times as much, and we still don’t have enough. So, you do have to make a few decisions. And I think the one most important decision you can make is sit down and do a budget before you show up to work. You know how much you’re going to be making, you know, approximately, what’s going to happen. So, figure out how much money is left after all the bills are going to be paid and where that money is going to go. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the YNAB budgeting software, because they always tell you that every dollar has a job.

08:51 Inga: Like there should be no floating money there. Everything should be allocated before you start. If you do a really good budget and you stick to it, you should have a very comfortable lifestyle. All the decisions will be just fine. And if you do this for 25 years, you will be okay. That’s really the one big thing that I tell people. The other one that is really worth mentioning is the housing situation. We go into these jobs, not knowing are we going to get tenure? Are we not going to get tenure? What’s going to happen? Am I going to like it? And it really should be more about, is this a good cash flow house to buy or not, regardless what happens to me? If I go, like, when I went to Oregon, I didn’t know if I was going to be there for a long time.

09:30 Inga: I realized really fast I won’t, but I still bought a house because I knew that the duplex can rent for an extra thousand dollars over my mortgage. So even if I leave, it’s a good financial decision. When you show up in Los Angeles and the condo is a million dollars, not so much. So you really have to think about, is this a decision good for my long-term financial implications? Or am I just buying a house because now I have to buy a house, I moved somewhere else? Those are two big things that I would definitely consider before starting the job.

Personal Factors in Real Estate Decision-Making

09:58 Emily: I’d like to stay on this like real estate question a little bit more, because I’ve become much more interested in real estate since I bought my first house at the age of like, how old am I, at the age of 35, last year in the hype of the market craziness. We bought in a high cost of living area. So like, I’ve kind of been through this recently and it makes me very interested in this. So like, what I really like about what you said is that I read this book in the last year called First-Time Home Buyer: The Complete [Playbook] to Avoiding Rookie Mistakes. And in there they have this really interesting sort of way of approaching the decision about real estate, which is what you just mentioned is what are my exit strategies of this house or whatever kind of property?

10:35 Emily: And do they make financial sense? So like, yes, I’m going to live in this house. It’s going to be my primary residence. Or maybe we can even talk about house hacking, you know, but it’s probably going to be your primary residence. But when you are exiting this house, whether that’s you sell it or you keep it as a rental or that’s <laugh>, I guess that’s it, you know, you go to another area of the country or whatever, like, is it going to be an okay financial decision too, at that point? Does it still make sense? So, that’s a little bit like what you were saying, right? And I think that added element to what you were just saying is that, when you’re looking at your first like appointment and you’re going to be there for you don’t know how long. It could be a few years, it could be a lot of years. At what point, I guess if you decide that you do want to stay, like not for you, you left that first position relatively rapidly, but if you do want to stay like, “Oh yeah, I can see myself having my full career here.” Does it make sense to buy then? Even if like the cash flow is not going to be good?

11:29 Inga: Ooh. So, this goes outside of money and now into our personal things we have going on in our heads. Some people are totally fine being renters. And in some markets like a San Francisco, Los Angeles market, it is perfectly fine to be a tenant for the whole life. You can always go and buy another vacation home, an investment property somewhere else. You don’t have to just have one place. But other people cannot sleep at night when they know that I’m throwing money away into the wind and it’s rent. So for those people, it’s not really about the cash flow, but about, can I sleep at night? And it is okay, totally okay, to make decisions that are not based on dollars, as long as you are aware what you’re getting into. I personally tried to avoid that because like I was like, “Oh, I just wasted some money. I can just take that cash and I can put it, invest it and don’t do anything and make 9% somewhere else.” But if you’re going to buy a house and you really want this house, because that’s your dream, it is totally okay to buy it. Even if it doesn’t make sense.

12:28 Emily: Yeah. I definitely think you’re describing me with the house purchase that I just mentioned. I’m always saying like, this is more of a lifestyle decision than like a financial decision. Like yeah, it’s okay financially, but really it’s because I want like stability in my life. Like I want to know I have this house, I’m going to be living here. I know what school my kids are going to go to, that whole thing. So yeah, it’s much more of like a peace of mind and stability thing for me.

12:48 Inga: I mean, to give you a perspective, I have three houses now in three different places. The latest one I bought last week. So, you know, at the height of the height, because it made sense.

Spend Time on Your Benefits

12:59 Emily: Yeah. Congratulations on your new acquisition! Okay. Any other like mindset stuff you want to talk about in this, you know, transition into the first post-PhD full-time job?

13:11 Inga: Spend some time on your benefits, because when you go to a university job, it usually comes with a really good package. And some people tell me, yeah, I’ve made my choice in 30 minutes. 30 minutes? I spent 70 hours on my benefits, like trying to understand them, to see how to optimize them, what you can get to pay less in taxes. And if you are not really sure how to do it, find somebody who will do it for you for 500 bucks. Pay somebody two hours of work and do it because you’re going to make so much more money if you take advantage of what’s offered to you.

13:39 Emily: Can you give us a couple examples of some of those benefits that people might not be aware of?

13:43 Inga: Like even the choice of having a dependent care spending account, healthcare spending account. So, if you have kids and they go to daycare, you have some expenses for them. Like it should be a no-brainer. We are going to max out the $5,000 because we are going to probably save a third of that in taxes. But people are like, well, I don’t really have the cash to pay for it. You’re still paying for daycare. You just have to pay less if you do it through the dependent care spending account.

14:07 Emily: Yeah. Good example. And that applies for everybody, even outside of academia, if they have that kind of benefit through their work.

Financial Goals: Kids’ Education and Retirement

14:13 Emily: Okay. So, again, talking about this like point you’re like launching your career post-PhD. What are some financial goals that people at that stage might want to be considering? We already talked about real estate. We don’t have to go over that. What are some other financial goals?

14:26 Inga: Kids and kids’ education, if you have kids. And a lot of it comes with where they go to college, where they go to school, that’s also a decision that needs to be made. I would say that’s less important than your retirement. Retirement should go on top of that. And retirement is really a big decision because if you do it right and you do it from the very beginning, you’ll just have to work so much less when you’re 65 years old. What you can save at 35 to 45 is like saving 30 years later down the line. So, please make sure you’re not just saving a little bit, but trying to figure out how to max out that 403(b) or how to take advantage of your pension, how to make the optimal decision for that. That’s another one. And then the third one actually comes before you even get a job as you’re deciding. In some cases, obviously, you have one offer and a job is better than no job. But if you have a few different offers to decide, or if later in life you’re going to move to a different place, it’s not just about the base pay. There is so much more to think about in terms of where you live, the state income taxes, what else you can negotiate. That makes a huge difference in the financial package.

Maxing Out the 403(b)

15:32 Emily: I want to stay on the retirement goal for a second. Do you often end up saying to your clients, try to max out that 403(b)? Like, is that something that comes out of your mouth?

15:43 Inga: Yep. That is like the number one thing. There are a few exceptions. In some cases, obviously the emergency fund in general will come before, but with a few exceptions where people are not, they have other things going on where the 403(b) is irrelevant, I cannot think of a better thing both for taxes and retirement than maxing it out.

16:01 Emily: I was also thinking about like that goal of maxing out. So like for a personal example, when my husband and I first finished our PhDs and like our incomes are starting to increase, but they’re not like I don’t know as high as they are now, for example, multiple years later. We at first were not, even though we were like really good retirement savers, we were not trying to max out because we had like this real estate purchase goal and we had, you know, other things going on. And so we sort of set like a percentage of our income. It was 20% that we wanted to save. And then after we ended up buying our house, which I’ve already mentioned so many times, then we were like, okay, this is our year. We can finally max out. We can finally like all, you know, pull out all the stops, like try to max out as much as we can. So for us, we were trying to balance a few different goals, but yeah, so maxing out didn’t happen immediately. It was a few years down the line for us.

16:46 Inga: And you know, that’s very typical because once you want the house and you have kids, there’s a lot of competing priorities. So, not in every case, you’re going to max out. But even if you started at 5% this year and every year you go up by 1%, eventually max it out. Worst case when you become an associate professor, well, now you have this huge chunk of money coming in you don’t really need most likely, that can go to the maximization. And if you’re a professor, you actually potentially could have a double maximization between the 403(b) and the 457. So you could just go wild in there, if you had nothing better to do with the money and put in $40,000 aside.

17:21 Emily: Yeah. The amount that you can stash away when you have both a 403(b) and a 457 is like really a startling amount of money. It’s very impressive you can manage to do all of that.

Commercial

17:32 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2022-2023 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Choosing Where to Live

18:55 Emily: So, the third kind of decision that you mentioned is if you had, you know, competing offers, ideal scenario and you get to choose where to live. I end up talking about this a lot at like the grad student level with like, okay, you need to make sure that your stipend is going to actually like pay for your life in X, Y, Z city that you’ve never lived in before. Like how do you kind of assess that? So, are there any, like, what are the considerations for someone at that stage in deciding where to live? And I want to also like throw in something you told me before the interview, which is that you do not live in California, you have moved elsewhere and are working remotely. So like, what are the things that go into that decision when we’re talking about geographic arbitrage?

19:30 Inga: The two big things are cost of living, buying, or renting a place and the state income tax. So, it really comes down to that. So for example, when COVID hit and everything went online, I move from Los Angeles to Florida, and I’m still here commuting to LA once a week to teach my class because the price of the tickets and what I need to do is still so much lower than the cost of living I’m giving up. And some of the income being shielded from the California state income tax, which is very expensive. So as you’re making these two decisions, think about $1 in Los Angeles is like having $2 in Florida, and nobody’s going to double your salary to go to Los Angeles. So you really have to think about that and decide, “Okay. If I really don’t care that much about a specific location and I have a Boise, Idaho, and some North Carolina, like which one makes more financial sense when it comes to buying a house or renting plus the state income tax?”

20:22 Emily: Yeah, that’s really, really good to think about. We touched on this a little bit in a previous interview with Dr. Amanda back in, I don’t know, season one or season two. Listeners can look that up if they’re interested, but she said kind of the same thing. Like she was looking at multiple different academic offers and saying, “Wow, you know, they’re not adjusted that much based on the cost of living.” It made a lot more sense. She wanted to live in the Midwest anyway. So that made a lot of sense for her to like, accept that kind of offer, both lifestyle and financial decision in that case. So yeah, that’s really interesting to hear that your offers might not be too different. And it’s the same thing actually with grad students’ stipends. Like, yes, they generally will hopefully pay more in high cost of living areas, but it’s not as much as it would be to make up the real difference between those low cost of living and high cost of living areas.

Financial Tactics Beyond Budgeting

21:03 Emily: Let’s get down to a little bit more tactical stuff. What are some financial like tactics that you end up recommending to your clients? We already talked about budgeting a little bit. Is there anything that goes beyond that?

21:15 Inga: Tax planning is normally a big deal, but it comes later in life when you’re making more money. When you’re making 60, $70,000, let’s just say like immediately as a postdoc, tax planning is really not going to save you that much money. Once you’re making $200,000, you have two people making the same. It is a big deal. So you do want to figure out what is the least amount of tax I want to pay, whether it be from retirement, from where you live, from how you shield some of the benefits, it’s worth the consideration. And really making the decision, if you decide to go the 403(b), or one of those investment type accounts, 457, 401(k), you really have to make sure the investments you have make sense. Because sometimes you have multiple choices. Let’s say you have a 403(b), and now you have options between Fidelity and lawyer and somebody else, make the best decision based on the investment choices, and then make sure your portfolio building actually makes sense.

22:09 Inga: And it’s so crazy how nobody gives you this training. The only people you end up talking to are the reps from these companies, and their sole purpose is to get you into their hands. So, they’re not going to tell you, “Oh yeah, Fidelity is better than Vanguard,” or whatever it happens to be. You have to make the decision because I think at one point the calculation is like a $600,000 calculation if you max out your 403(b) for the next 40 years. It’s a huge difference what funds you choose, how you invest. And that is also a good place to probably look for some help if you don’t have the skills and knowledge.

22:43 Emily: I think some of my listeners, you know, they’ve probably heard me talking about like a Roth IRA ad nauseum, because a Roth IRA is like, kind of, well, the IRA is like the only game of town, pretty much for graduate students. And the Roth makes so much sense when they’re that young. But as you mentioned, you know, tax optimization and tax planning, as your income starts to increase, I’m learning that it makes a lot more sense of course, to use like traditional versions of these accounts in many cases. What I’m literally working with right now with my financial planner is on asset location. So, like what’s going to be in the traditional accounts, what’s going to be in the Roth accounts, what’s going to be in the taxable brokerage. She’s figuring all that stuff out for us because it can get pretty complicated at that point.

23:21 Inga: And in the end, you have to have all three. You have to have some rough money, you have to have some traditional, and some of the brokerage, if you want to, when you are old, try to take money out to make the most sense of it. So, I’m a big fan of the Roth IRA. If you can do it and you’re not maxed out and you have, yeah. Do it. But putting $6,000 in a Roth is not going to be enough for retirement. You’ll have to do more than that. And even at work, you have an option between a Roth versus traditional 403(b) for example, how do you make the choice? It needs to be thought through because that’s a huge implication down the line.

General Rules of Thumb

23:52 Emily: So, let’s assume that somebody listening is not going to work with you or another type of financial planner at this crucial point that we’re talking about when they’re deciding on their benefits. Can you give them any other like, pointers about how to make these decisions that are general rules of thumb or that most people would be able to apply?

24:08 Inga: Okay. So the first decision, if you have a pension versus a 403(b) type account, because a lot of the systems do, if you see yourself staying in the system and investing and being there for the long-term, take the pension. It’s normally a better deal. If you think this is a two-to-five year deal, take the 403(b), it comes down to that. And if you’re not sure, take the pension because you can always convert the money later on and take it with you. For the 403(b) type accounts, investment accounts, a Roth versus traditional. I mean, I have rules of thumb. Again, disclosure, they don’t always work, but if you are making less than $80,000, the Roth is the way to go. You are not getting killed by taxes. Most likely you’re going to end up with more taxes down the road. So, take the Roth.

24:50 Inga: Over $120K, and that’s for single, so double it for married, maybe traditional makes more sense depending how much you itemize, how much deductions you have. And between $80K and $120K is a very gray area. Once you are at the point where you make $250K plus, and you have plenty of money and you’re thinking, “Well, now I need to have a 403(b) and a 457. Then you can do a little bit of both. But in the beginning, if you’re making the typical 150 salary for a lot of the majors, the traditional 403(b) usually makes more sense.

25:23 Emily: Yes. Thank you so much for that general landscape of, you know, how one’s financial life may play out in this respect. Are there any financial challenges or financial opportunities that academics have that are not commonly discussed in personal finance circles? Like the wider personal finance community or financial planning community?

Financial Benefits of Job Changes

25:46 Inga: I think the job change is a little stickier or harder to change. Like a lot of the clients I work with who are not academics to them like, “Oh yeah, somebody offered me $15 more. I’m taking a new job. I’m jumping ship” because there’s always that kind of mentality. Academics don’t really think about money as much as they should. And I understand that some of them really never been exposed, who had never thought about this. And they may have a PhD that has nothing to do with money. But at the end of the day, I feel like it’s extremely important to think about this, because no matter what you do in life, you still have got to do all these things. You still have to buy a house. You still have to optimize your money. So, think about potentially changing your job, even though you might have tenure, even though life seems okay, can you make your situation better if you are to go somewhere else? Or if you got to go on the job market again? You’ll never get as much money as you do when you go in the job market again and again. Like your current job may offer you a match once or twice, may give you some more money, but the only real way to jump in pay once you’re full professor is to go somewhere else. So think about leaving or getting a new job, even though you’ve been here for maybe 15, 20 years.

26:57 Emily: Wow. I didn’t realize that academia was so I guess, similar to the private sector in that respect, in that you need to change employers to really make massive salary jumps. I have heard of the tactic of like getting another offer and then negotiating your current one with your hopeful intention is to stay. But it sounds like what you just said is that that, mm, it might work a little bit, but not as much.

27:19 Inga: Yeah. And I have clients who do that very successfully. Like somebody brought two different offers in the last five years and they matched the offer, but now they told her we’re done here. A third offer is not going to get matched and she can get so much more in the open market. So, depending where you are and how happy. And then again, if you are super happy and your life is awesome, who cares about the money? If you want to stay where you stay, you do not have to do it. But if you are okay with moving and thinking about money a little bit more, then there is nothing wrong giving up your tenure and starting somewhere else.

Finding a Financial Planner

27:50 Emily: Since we’ve been mentioning so much in this interview talking about like financial planners, sometimes people come to me with like, what is the type of financial planner or financial advisor I should seek out? And we’ve also talked about like the timing of seeking out that kind of advice. Can you give maybe people who are like finishing up grad school soon or finishing up their postdoc soon, some sort of reference point on like, how much is it going to cost them to work with someone like you like to make a comprehensive plan? Or how does the pricing work? Because I’m sure when they haven’t started that, you know, they haven’t gotten that first paycheck from the new job, they’re still counting their pennies. And this may be a concern and a barrier for them to working with someone at a crucial point in their career.

28:29 Inga: And so, this should not be a barrier. Find somebody who wants to help you, and then you can pay them a little bit later. There’s always arrangements to be made. So I would not stop myself for looking for one. There are different types of plans. Some planners charge even hourly, some do this quick start or focused plans. Like I do those, we focus on two, three big areas and I charge $1,500 for them. So, it’s a limited engagement for two, three months to get you through the most important things. A full financial plan will probably cost you between two and $5,000. I charge $300 a month for 12 months. So it’s a one year engagement. So we get through everything, but I’ve seen prices it’s typical between two and $5,000. I don’t know if it’s worth it for you to have a full financial plan to start with.

29:13 Inga: If you’ve been a PhD student and now you just have a few questions about the work benefits, a focused plan is probably the way to go. And those will range between $500 and $2,000, depending on who you go to. When you’re looking for a planner, XYPN is my favorite place to go because everybody there is a CFP, and everybody’s fee-only. And there’s a lot of debate about fiduciaries. No, not everybody’s a fiduciary who tells who they are. So fee-only is my requirement, which means that only the clients can pay you. Nobody else can pay you. And the CFP with probably five years of experience. Otherwise, these problems are pretty typical unless you have something very specialized that needs to be discussed, almost everybody there can help you.

29:57 Emily: I’m really glad you mentioned that. So, I just independently, you know, Inga and I did not plan this, but I also went through XY Planning Network to find my planner.

30:04 Inga: Oh, really?

30:05 Emily: Yes, absolutely. Because I know that everybody in the Network is a CFP. My planner, I made sure that she’s not being compensated by anybody else. You know, we have the, you know, fee model where like we paid upfront a little bit for like an accelerated plan. And then we also have like a monthly subscription. So it’s sort of a combo of those two to work together for one year. So like, yes. So I totally like cosign what Inga just said. And this is a great place to find someone who is willing to work with you and is going to be competent to do so. What I like about the XY planning network is that you can search for all kinds of different, like special scenarios that you might be encountering.

30:36 Emily: So, I really wanted someone who was going to help me specifically on tax planning and tax advising as like our main like focus. So that’s what I kind of look for. And also people who are familiar with like self-employment and all that stuff, because that’s what I am. But if you had other things going on in your life, you know, you’re an academic or you’re in the military or you’re receiving an inheritance or whatever, there’s a lot of different, you know, types of people who specialize in different things. You can easily find them through the search tools in that network, which I really like.

31:00 Inga: And they have over a thousand advisors now. So I mean, you can find advisors who like the color purple. I mean there are so many possibilities, and they’re all virtual. So you don’t need to have somebody local. It is really the best place to find somebody who’s unbiased and a CFP.

How to Connect with Inga

31:14 Emily: Love it. Inga, if listeners want to follow up you, learn more about you and your work, where’s the best place for them to go?

31:21 Inga: Probably on my website, attainablewealthfp.com. And I’m not taking any new clients for the next six months at least. But if you have questions, like you went to XYPN and narrowed it down to two people and you don’t know who to choose, I’ll be very happy to provide someone unsolicited advice from what I know. So, feel free to reach out. If you have questions, maybe I can just send you like a copy of a book. I teach personal finance, so I have a very short book I wrote for the students. I can just send you a copy and try to help in any way possible.

Best Financial Advice for Current Graduate Students

31:49 Emily: Oh, that’s a wonderful offer. Thank you, Inga. That’s very generous. Okay. We’re going to end with the question that I ask all of my interviewees, which is what is your best financial advice for current graduate students? So we’re thinking a little bit earlier than the population we’ve been talking about up to this point. It could be something that we’ve mentioned already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

32:09 Inga: I want to say get a financial plan at this point, but that’s a given. So, the other thing is get a budget. If you do not have a tight rein on your budget when you’re making 20,000, it’s only going to get worse once you make $120K. So, sit down and figure out how you can get a budget and have a percent go into savings, no matter how little you make right now.

32:31 Emily: I love that advice. I say this a lot about kind of graduate students in that phase of life, like you’re sort of building up your muscles in terms of like your financial practices, the money management, the, you know, the knowledge that you have and you’re really going to apply them. And it’s going to make a big difference once you have that big paycheck coming in. But right now is the time to like practice so that as you said, you don’t get to the big paycheck and say, “Whoa, all the money disappeared. <Laugh>. What do I do about that?” So, I love that advice. Well, Inga, it’s been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much for volunteering to come onto the podcast. And I’m really glad to have met you.

33:04 Inga: Same here.

Outtro

33:11 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

The Gardener and Rose Approach for Childfree PhD Couples

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jay Zigmont, who holds both a PhD in Adult Education and Certified Financial Planner designation. Jay has focused his financial planning practice, Live Learn Plan, on the childfree community, and his book, Portraits of Childfree Wealth, will be published on June 1, 2022. Emily and Jay discuss the stories and interview excerpts from the book and Jay’s observations about the relationship between being childfree and finances. Jay holds up the model of the Gardener and Rose as a potentially useful one for dual-PhD couples, which is what he and his wife practice.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Teaser

00:00 Jay: And I was amazed that people would share this. I mean, to be frank, people would rather talk about their sex life than their finances. But people were sharing it all, and it’s just amazing to see.

Introduction

00:15 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season 12, episode one, and today my guest is Dr. Jay Zigmont, who holds both a PhD in Adult Education and the Certified Financial Planner designation. Jay has focused his financial planning practice, Live Learn Plan, on the childfree community, and his book, Portraits of Childfree Wealth will be published on June 1st, 2022. We discuss the stories and interview excerpts from Jay’s book and his observations about the relationship between being childfree and finances. Jay holds up the model of the gardener and rose as a potentially useful one for dual PhD couples, which is what he and his wife practice.

01:10 Emily: If you’ve been getting value from this podcast, would you please do me a favor? This is a perfect time of year to recommend me and my work to an appropriate host or sponsor at your university or Alma mater. In case you didn’t know, I offer numerous personal finance seminars and workshops on topics like taxes, investing, budgeting, and debt repayment, all tailored for graduate students, postdocs, and/or prospective graduate students. If you think that you and your peers would benefit from my teaching, please recommend me to your graduate school graduate student association or post office. These recommendations help me get my foot in the door with new clients or remind past clients of the need for this material. If you choose to recommend me over email, please Cc me, [email protected] so that I can pick up the conversation. It’s only possible for me to create free-to-you content like this podcast if I have paying clients for my speaking engagements and prerecorded workshops. Thank you in advance for recommending me. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jay Zigmont, CFP.

Would You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:29 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jay Zigmont. He is a CFP whose practice is called Live Learn Plan. And he’s also a PhD. His PhD is in Adult Learning from Yukon, and we’re going to be talking today about his kind of specialty within his financial planning practice, which is in childfree people. So, that’s kind of the topic, and specifically how like his career has progressed and how he and his wife together have progressed in their careers and trade offs in their childfree life. So, Jay, it’s such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for volunteering! And would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

03:06 Jay: Absolutely. Emily. So what I do for my day job is I help people understand their dreams and figure out their life and financial planning. I specifically work with childfree folks, which is a interesting area, because in finances it’s completely ignored. There’s no mention in the entire certified financial planning training of being childfree. So I try to bring a little bit of my own life and my research into the practice.

03:30 Emily: Yeah, that’s really, I just think it’s really exciting to learn people’s niches and like why they chose them. Obviously, I have a very specific niche in my like financial education stuff. So, that’s awesome that you’re kind of overlapping your own life choices with what you focus on in your profession. So, it’s a little bit of an unusual path, right? To get a PhD and then get a CFP later on. That’s a certified financial planner by the way, for those who aren’t familiar with the acronym. So, can you tell us how your career took that path?

04:00 Jay: Yeah, so I spent a lot of time in healthcare and academia and you know, everybody listening, there are probably some people who have done both those careers. And it’s always good, bad, and ugly. And across that time, the thing that was common was I was doing coaching. So, whether it’s executive coaching, career coaching, life coaching, academic coaching, whatever it is. And the reality is people are more willing to pay for financial coaching than they are for some of the other. And as soon as you do that, you need to start working on a CFP, become an investment advisor, all the other ones to cross the T’s dot the I’s. And what I’ve found is that I can combine life coaching or life planning with financial coaching and financial planning, because I don’t know if you can separate your life and your finances, but at least that’s the way I look at it, they’re all together.

04:45 Emily: I have the exact same viewpoint. It’s one of the things that has always like excited me about personal finance is that it is so intertwined with just your life holistically. It’s impossible to separate. And I think you really can like get to know people really well, what their values are, what excites them through how they are using their money or how they would like to use their money in the future. So, I totally agree. That’s really, really fun.

05:08 Jay: So, I’m also advice-only. So, I’m an advice-only CFP. I don’t do investment management for people. So, my work is around teaching people to do it themselves. So, that matches where I come from. But it’s also, frankly, different in the financial world, because I’m not charging an AUM fee or anything like that. I meet with people on a regular basis. I actually meet with them monthly and we work through their life finances and it just helps people grow.

05:31 Emily: I totally agree. This is a really new, like exciting model within financial planning. I don’t know if the listeners will be familiar with the AUM or assets-under-management model, but that’s where you hear like a, you know, an advisor’s charging you 1% or some other fee similar to that, to do all your investment management for you, but your model is completely different. And a lot of, I think younger planners are moving towards this fee-only model where, like you said, you’re paying kind of for someone’s time and expertise, but it’s a teaching relationship. It’s a coaching and guiding relationship. I’m working with a financial advisor as well who’s a CFP who works under that same model of a subscription model instead of this like AUM model. So yeah, I really, I love that.

Portraits of Childfree Wealth

06:10 Emily: So, in preparing for this interview, you sent me a book. Can you tell us about the book and the study that you did that leads into it?

06:20 Jay: Yeah. So, I actually started off with a different plan than my book. And, you know, when you dive into research, you have this idea of what you’re gonna look at and then it goes somewhere else. And I’m a qualitative researcher by nature. So, I really wanted to look at the question of what is it like to be childfree, and how does that impact your life and your finances and your wealth? And I’d done a bunch, you know, got a bunch of surveys, got a bunch of data, started going through it. But I was doing these interviews with these people, and these amazing stories came out of what their life was like. And I said, okay, I have to kind of pause some of the analytical work I’m doing and just share these life stories because they don’t exist. You know, and the childfree, they’re about 11% of the U.S over 55 are childfree. And a recent study in Michigan found that 27% of adults are childfree, but there’s no stories about kind of like, well, what does that mean? How does that work? What is that life like? And I was like, how is it possible that such a large group, I mean, we’re talking millions and millions of people, don’t have something, and in the financial literature it’s completely ignored? So, I’m sharing the stories, and hopefully people can go, “Oh, that’s me,” or, “Wow, I didn’t realize that was a way of life.”

07:28 Emily: Can you say the name of your book and when it’s coming out?

07:31 Jay: So Portraits of Childfree Wealth comes out June 1st.

07:35 Emily: Okay. So, I read this in preparation for the interview, and what I found fascinating is that it feels very honest. It feels very unfiltered, especially about a topic like finances, which is so sensitive. And a lot of people are not willing to speak openly about it. So, it is really exciting that you could, you know, compile these interviews and really share, like you just said, like exactly what life is like for these, you know, selected people that you included in the book. So, it was really a fascinating read. Disheartening at times, honestly, but also very encouraging at times. Because obviously different people have different kinds of stories.

08:10 Jay: So, you’re right on it. And I think one of the most shocking things to people is, being childfree doesn’t mean you’re rich. There are people in there literally talking about living on an air mattress. You know, I’m like, the way I look at it is, you know, if they had a kid they’d drown, you know, they just barely keep, and I was amazed that people would share this. I mean, to be frank, people would rather talk about their sex life than their finances, but people were sharing it all. And it’s just amazing to see.

08:37 Emily: Yeah, and I don’t know if this is one of maybe the threads that you pulled out of this set of interviews, but definitely in a number of them, finances were not necessarily like a motivation for making a choice to be childfree, but it helped a lot on that front. Like you said, some of people interviewed would not, I think, be able to financially support a child without some additional like outside assistance, the way they were earning and living like at the moment. And so, it seems like a practical choice as well.

09:10 Jay: Yeah. And I think, so because we’re talking to researchers, this is always a fun one. There’s a relationship, I’m being technical on that, between growing up in poverty or poor and choosing childfree. I don’t have enough data to look at correlation/causation, but there is something there, you know? I didn’t come up with it. I don’t have the money. And then I’ve made that choice. And I think that’s one of those that we’re going to have to dive deeper in to understand, but there are also people that have chosen, well, I’m not having kids because of climate or medical issues or all different reasons. So, I mean, they’re just as varied as the people themselves.

FIRE versus FILE

09:47 Emily: Yeah. And I’m sure this is probably typically a multivariate decision, right? It’s not just one overriding reason for making the choice to be childfree, but it’s, it’s a few things that all kind of come together. Besides the relationship between growing up in poverty and choosing to be childfree, what were some other like key observations or other relationships that you saw?

10:06 Jay: So, I think some of the interesting ones, I was surprised the amount of childfree folks that say they don’t really want to retire. So, there’s a lot of work right now on the FIRE movement, Financial Independence, Retire Early. And there are a couple people that are FIREd and some people like inadvertently FIREd and all that. But most people are going, I’d rather do what I call FILE, Financial Independence, Live Early. It’s kind of dimmed the work. You know, Ryan shares his story in the book of, he works 25 hours a week, never on Fridays, never before 10:00 AM. And like he could take his laptop and go to Palm Springs and do work from anywhere. And that’s really interesting because I think that might be a unique thing to the childfree community that you can get up and go and have that mobile life. But it’s also, if your goal is not retirement, it completely changes your financial plan.

10:54 Emily: I really like that you had that acronym that you explained a few times throughout the book, the FILE. And it reminded me of some of these other like flavors of FIRE, like barista FIRE and Coast FI and all of those. Yeah, super interesting.

11:09 Jay: Some of the people in the FIRE community will argue with me and say, well, Choose FI or Slow FI, the same as FILE. And I go, well, here’s the question? The question is, are you retiring at the end? And what you hear is a lot of FIRE people go, “No, I don’t really want to retire.” Well then you’re not FIRE-ing. You are doing something else. And I think the point I was trying to work through is if I’m not retiring, then my financial plan shouldn’t reflect retiring. And people go, well, what does that change? Well, it changes a lot of your assumptions, and it changes what are your goals, and how does that fit?

11:41 Emily: Yeah. That’s a really exciting concept. Were there any other observations or relationships that you’d like to pull out from the study?

The Gardener and the Rose

11:48 Jay: Yeah, I think the other one I mentioned in there comes out of me and my wife to an extent is this concept of the gardener and the rose. So, my wife and I were both PhDs, and anyone that has a family with two PhDs, you know how hard it is to get a career with two PhDs. Does that make sense, Emily?

12:04 Emily: I know it very well. My husband has a PhD, too.

12:07 Jay: Yeah. So, we get this trailing spouse thing, and it just, it’s a nightmare. My personal belief is it’s almost impossible to get two careers at exactly the same level at exactly the same time for two PhDs. It is possible, but I mean, it’s like you won the lotto. And what I heard from the childfree folks was people were looking at, Hmm, what are the options? And what my wife and I did is we look at it as the gardener or the rose. Somebody’s the rose growing, and somebody’s the gardener providing the support. And I have to clear, you know, that is not gendered roles or anything like that. It’s just expectations, because somebody has to provide support, and somebody has to grow. And my wife and I, we actually have made a conscious effort that we’re going take turns, you know, and that allows the rose to kind of grow and do its own thing.

12:54 Jay: And what you heard is people in this book saying, “Well, you know, we have two incomes. We don’t need both. One of us is not happy.” And I’m like, “So, quit.” And they’re like, “Wait, what?” I’m like, “Well, take turns growing and you can work this gardener and the rose approach. And I’ve got people in there that one’s creating his own video games and he’s doing indie game design and they’re living in an RV. He’s the rose right now, and his wife works in healthcare. It’s this thing that can happen where you can take these turns. Does that make any sense?

13:24 Emily: It absolutely makes sense to me. And as I was reflecting on this concept, I was trying to sort of apply it to like my relationship with my husband and how our careers have progressed. It doesn’t fit, I think, quite as cleanly for us as it does for you and your wife. But I see elements of it at different times and in different ways.

Commercial

13:43 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD Workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success! Now back to the interview.

Taking Turns

14:49 Emily: The examples in the book, as far as I remember of gardener and rose, were like the one that you decided of like, well, one person’s going to like take a break from earning or like earn less than they maybe could because the other person is financially able to provide. But from what I can tell for you and your wife, that’s not the case. You’re both working, you both have income, but it’s more about whose career is driving some other decisions in your life. Is that right? How does that work?

15:12 Jay: Yeah, so my wife is in the academic path. And as everybody here knows, when you get the right tenure track position, you just go <laugh>. So, we actually recently moved 1200 miles for her career, and you’re right. It’s not about income, but it’s about that support. So, if somebody’s going to be on that tenure-track path, there’s a whole lot of other stuff that needs to get taken care of. I mean literally like the gardening and the house and the landscaping and the, whatever it is and paying the bills and whatever it is. It’s not about money, but it’s about that support that you need to do that. Because if my wife had to stop and do all that while she was on this tenure-track fun, it would hurt her career. So, we take those turns. Now, mind you, my turn as a rose, I’ve told her 15 years I’m retiring completely and we’re going to get in a boat and travel the world. That’s it. And that’s what I want to do. And she knows that, but that puts a limit, frankly, on her career. But also, it’s a fairness of taking turns.

16:14 Emily: Do you think that the turn-taking aspect is like essential to the concept of gardener and rose? Or is it okay for a couple to choose permanent roles as one or the other?

16:24 Jay: Yeah. So, it’s a rough question. I believe that if people pick one role or the other, it’s way too easy for someone to be neglected or not appreciated or have concerns, let’s call it that. What I think happens is, there are some great stories in there of people that have tried to do the type of gardener and rose without the swap, but then the person that’s in the rose position feels guilty. You know? Well, I’m taking advantage of, well, no, if we know we each have our own turns, I can be selfish for my turn. You can be selfish for yours, and that’s okay. I think if one person decides, “Hey, I want to be this role forever,” and that’s their conscious choice, maybe. But especially when you’re talking about like two PhDs, that’s hard, you know? Fortunately, I can do my finance work from anywhere, but there are other career options I could follow if I was being the rose. So, I think there’s just a balancing act. Does that make sense to you?

17:24 Emily: It does. And I’m actually thinking back to, I’m not going to be able to like cite research on this, but it’s something that I think I read maybe during our premarital counseling that my husband and I went through about how it was maybe about like life satisfaction or something with, we’ll just say married couples, where they had an agreement about whose role was whose. Like maybe there was a working spouse and a non-working spouse. As long as they both were in agreement about what their roles should be, they had a pretty decent level of happiness, even if their circumstances caused them to be flipped. So, let’s say, you know, more traditional, let’s say the husband’s supposed to be the one working, let’s say the wife’s supposed to be the one taking care of the home. Well, the husband becomes disabled, and the wife is the one who has to go into the workforce. Couples who were in agreement about like what their roles should be were happier, even if they couldn’t actually live out those roles, but just having the agreement between them was satisfactory to them. So, it reminds me a little bit about this. Like how do you negotiate, you know, who should be the gardener and who should be the rose at any given time. As long as you’re in agreement, I feel like it’s going to help, even if maybe life circumstances end up playing out a little bit differently.

18:31 Jay: Yeah. And I think there’s some of that that nature does to it. You know, like just your life, your career, there are times in your career. There’s a great example, somebody in the book who just needed to take a 90-day sabbatical, just needed to like get her brain back, you know? And we’re seeing some of this with the great resignation where people aren’t really quitting jobs forever. They’re like, I just need to stop and do something else. And that might be just for a period of time. And I think you’re right. It is the clarity on the roles. But I think with childfree couples, one of the challenges is you have the time, money, and the wealth, the freedom to do what you want. And that actually can cause a little bit of analysis paralysis routine of having too many choices. So, by taking these turns in the roles, you go, “Okay, you’re the rose. Follow your dream. I’ll do like the day in, day out work and vice versa.” And it’s almost like it’s just a little anchor between the two of you. And it also gives people to think through that chance, like you’re talking on the marital counseling of, well, what are our roles? What do we want to do? And a lot of couples have never had that discussion. It’s just implied. And that can cause issues.

19:35 Emily: Yeah. I mean, I’m just trying to think about like two people trying to be the rose at the same time. And if you both want to be the rose, then you’re both also going to have to be the gardener in some ways. There’s going to have to be some kind of negotiation and agreement there. It’s a little bit more clean if it’s like, okay, clearly one person’s a rose, one person’s a gardener. But maybe there are ways you can work out, you know, different aspects of your life or something like that where it could play out a little bit where both of you sort of get to feel like the rose, maybe. This is maybe a little bit how I was applying it to the course that my husband and I have had with our careers. Because, like you and your wife, we moved in 2015 for my husband’s job.

20:15 Emily: So, his first like post-PhD job in industry. We moved across the country. And I was okay with that. I was starting my business. And so I was like, you know, I had a location freedom within my job, but I wasn’t making nearly as much money as I could have had I taken a traditional job after my PhD. And so, in a way, you could interpret that as he’s the rose, because we’re moving for his job. Our location where we’re living is determined by his work. I also see it as my husband was providing financially for both of us, to a large degree, so that I could grow my business, which has flourished over time. And so, I see it like kind of both ways in different ways, right? Location on the one hand, and actual like finances on the other hand. So yeah, I just, there are different ways, I think, that you could imply this framework, but I think it works.

Outsourcing the Gardener

21:03 Jay: Yeah. And I think the gardening roles can be a whole bunch of things. And frankly, if you make enough money, you can pay somebody to do all the gardening roles. Literally. I mean, you can pay somebody to do all that. And then you can have two roses. But as long as location doesn’t mess with it. Some people do look at it as the financial support and the other. But if we go back in time, and I hate to say these old gender roles, but the idea was somebody was doing their primary job and somebody was providing support at home. And I don’t think we realized how much work it is to provide support at home, with or without kids, there’s just a lot of stuff. You know, we need a new roof on our house. Well, that’s a giant project, you know? So, you’ve got to have somebody with the flexibility to do that. Or, you have to be able to pay somebody to manage these projects for you. And I think that’s overlooked because if we’re both at the top of our careers, then we’re going home and have to figure how to mow the lawn. Like, our brain just explodes. Money is not important. What money gets you is important. So, if you’re just working to make the dollars, and it’s not making your life better, change something,

22:16 Emily: I’m feeling this like so strongly right now because my husband and I purchased our first home, which is like a single-family like house a year ago. And so, we went from like apartment living as renters to this managing an entire house situation. And it is a lot of work. I was not quite prepared for this. So yeah, and we’re trying to figure out ways, like how much should we be outsourcing? How much should we keep, you know, us to do the work. But it is a lot, a lot, a lot of work that it takes to run a household. Yeah. And I definitely did not appreciate this a few years ago back when I was still a renter.

22:51 Jay: Let me give you a number on that one. I’ll actually give you the answer on what you should outsource. The question is what do you make per hour, and would you rather work an hour than do the work? So my wife and I, we have somebody come in to help clean. I’ll work an extra hour of work and not have to clean the toilets. I mean, that’s the math behind it. If you enjoy mowing the lawn, do it. If you don’t, <laugh> figure out your hourly and, you know, pick up an extra, you know, class or whatever it is to cover that.

Communication is Key

23:18 Emily: Yeah, this is like airing my dirty laundry on the podcast, but like literally my husband and I are talking about this right now with respect to a house cleaner. I am very confident that we both made more per hour, and that a house cleaner could do a better job and faster than we could do it. But he still has this like, idea that like, you should do it yourself or something. We’re working on that. That’s something we have to agree on together. So yeah, we’re sort of in negotiations about that right now. Is there anything else you want to tell us about this like gardener and rose concept?

23:51 Jay: I think the big thing is communication. I mean, that’s the bottom line of all of it. And I think, when it comes to finances, unfortunately, even couples don’t talk about it, you know? And here’s what I’ve found, with my clients, I talk about this type of concept all the time. The person who needs to be the rose, the person who’s burnt out of their career or whatever, the other spouse is perfectly fine with. It’s the rose that has trouble taking it, you know? Of saying, okay, I will step down or I will change, or I will do whatever. The other person always supports it. So, I think it’s that communication. And I think the other part of it is, what I’m seeing at least in the great resignation world is it’s not about money. It’s changing jobs for either meaning or, you know, whatever that feeling is for the soul, not about the dollars and cents. Hey, I want to make more in my career.

LifeScriptTM Deviation

24:46 Emily: Kind of tying into that. One of the big patterns that I saw reading through the stories in your book was this concept that childfree people, and the people are sort of speaking about their own experience, they have this sense that they can make changes in their lives without maybe considering how it would affect a child or maybe other people in their lives. And that they, in theory, have like a freedom to do that. Did you have that observation as well? But what I also observed is that they weren’t always acting on it. They thought they had the freedom, but they weren’t using it.

25:22 Jay: So, I have this moment frequently and it was in the book and also with just everyday people. And I look at their numbers, I go, “You’re fine. You can do that. You can make that.” And then you get this look in their face, like, “No, no I can’t.” And I’m like, “I’m looking at it financially, you can.” And there’s like this tension. And it happens with people that could cut back on work or retire or change their careers. And I think, you know, I just had a good conversation with somebody that’s this concept of like the middle class work ethic or the Protestant work ethic, which is kind of what you’re talking about with your husband, where I’ve got do this. No, you don’t. Like, so for childfree folks, our goal is not to pass generational wealth. It’s to pay for our bills on the way out. So, adding more zeros to a bank account doesn’t help. So, there’s a point where you’re like, well, I want to go on that, you know, trip of a lifetime or whatever. Well, then do it. And people are like, “Oh, I can’t. I still got…” I’m like, why? And I think it’s just this cultural component. It’s why your husband won’t let somebody else clean the toilets.

26:28 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. That Protestant work ethic thing <laugh> how people are brought up. And I guess what we see in the book is like people, you used the term LifeScriptTM in the book. And how people who have made a conscious choice to be childfree have deviated from the LifeScriptTM. But it sounds like even though they’ve made that step, some of them are still being held back by this like cultural conditioning around making radical changes or really experiencing the freedom that they have earned through their finances and through their career.

27:02 Jay: Absolutely. So, the LifeScriptTM goes this way. You go to school, high school, you graduate, you go to college, by the way, most people don’t even like pick where they go to college. Their parents put something on them. So, that’s part of the script. You go to college, you get a job, you get married, you have kids, you get old, you retire. That’s kind of like the standard script. So, childfree people threw out the middle of it. Like, nah, I’m not doing the kids. And also, interestingly enough, 32.1% of childless people, this is per census, will never get married. So, they even threw away the married part. So, they threw that all out. Cool. Throw away the part about job and career and like, it just locks up because, well then what do I do? And they’re like, well, I don’t like where I live.

27:50 Jay: Well, then move. And they’re like, well, but you know? So, another great example is people go, well, I have to buy a house. You don’t. If you’re childfree and you’re going to move every two years, there’s no reason to buy a house. But then people go, well, but how do I, you know, make money without a house? That’s fine. We can do reeds. We can do some other stuff with it, but it’s just like this, it locks them in. And I have to spend a lot of time going well, there are other options and working it step by step.

28:18 Emily: This is just that observation you just made is why I’m so pleased that you chose this as your niche, because some of those elements you just said, you know, the FIRE movement is kind of working on people’s psychology around this, but I love that you have that further spin on it of focusing just on the childfree community. Because they, as you said, you know, at the beginning they have different financial lives than other people who do have children. And they deserve to be served specifically with their finances. And so, I’m so glad that you chose that as your niche and connected that personal element of your life to your professional life. I’m just so excited for your business. Tell us where people can find the book and where they can contact you if they’d like to learn more?

29:02 Jay: Sure. Portraits of Childfree Wealth is sold everywhere books are sold. If you want to go to Amazon, Barnes and Noble, whatever works for you. And I can be found at childfreewealth.com.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

29:13 Emily: Well, Jay, thank you so much for giving this interview. I conclude all my interviews by asking what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

29:27 Jay: Let me give you something that’s a life advice, if that’s okay. One of our colleagues taught us this and I wish others knew it. He said him and his wife both were MDs, had made a deal that they don’t have to go to each other’s corporate events. You know, the Christmas events, all that. So, my wife and I early on adopted this and we don’t go to each other’s events, because frankly, we don’t know anybody. And it’s been the best thing for our life because we don’t have to have that awkward conversation and the other. And people go, well, that’s not financial. No, it’s a life thing. You know, I don’t need to have that convo. And by the way, it’s easy to explain to people go, yep, we have this deal. This is how we do it. We have separate careers. And it works. And it sounds silly, but if you try it, you’ll like it.

30:12 Emily: Okay. Very interesting. Well thank you, Jay, for this fascinating interview. Thank you so much for coming on!

30:17 Jay: Happy to be here!

Outtro

30:24 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance…but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How Grad School Rewired This Student’s Brain for Financial Success

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In this episode, Emily interviews Elise Glickert, a fifth-year PhD student in organic chemistry at the University at Buffalo. Elise got married in the summer between finishing undergrad and starting grad school. Between their student loans and car loan, Elise and her husband were in about $85,000 of debt. With two irregular incomes, they quickly realized they had to change something to do more than just get by with their finances, and they implemented a zero-based budget. Elise compares long-term debt repayment with the process of completing a PhD—both require a long-term mindset, creativity, discipline, and intentionality. Elise and her husband are now debt-free, planning their next steps with their finances, and expecting a baby.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

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Teaser

00:00 Elise: Even with that, I think that was helpful. Just even for both of us to see, “Man, like, it is kind of cool how, like, you know, you can increase income just by like approaching or working towards something from a different angle.” And again, I think just like when you’re working on research projects, right? Sometimes you need like a different angle or different thought process to kind of come in and be like, “Oh, cool. Actually, I could approach this problem, look to solve this problem from this angle, instead of just this way.”

Introduction

00:30 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 11, Episode 9, and today my guest is Elise Glickert, a fifth-year PhD student in organic chemistry at the University at Buffalo. Elise got married in the summer between finishing undergrad and starting grad school. Between their student loans and car loan, Elise and her husband were in about $85,000 of debt. With two irregular incomes, they quickly realized they had to change something to do more than just get by with their finances, and they implemented a zero-based budget. Elise compares long-term debt repayment with the process of completing a PhD—both require a long-term mindset, creativity, discipline, and intentionality. Elise and her husband are now debt-free, planning their next steps with their finances, and expecting a baby.

01:30 Emily: Speaking of the transition from undergrad into grad school or the working world into grad school, I am giving away an incredible resource for rising graduate students later this week! The resource is a live webinar on the financial actions that people who will matriculate into graduate school in the coming months need to take right now. It’s really, really practical. We are covering why and how to right-size your housing and transportation expenses, budget and save up for your start-up costs, and investigate your paychecks prior to receiving the first one. I’m really looking forward to sharing this material with you and hearing your questions and concerns. If you are headed to graduate school in the fall, you can register for the webinar at PFforPhDs.com/rising/. If you’re already in or past graduate school but wish someone had sat you down to warn you about the financial pitfalls in your path to the PhD, please share the registration page with the rising graduate students in your life. Again, the URL to register for the free, live webinar on Thursday, April 28, 2022 is PFforPhDs.com/rising/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Elise Glickert.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:59 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Elise Glickert. She is a fifth-year PhD student at the University of Buffalo, and we are going to discuss her financial journey, along with her husband, from when she started grad school to this year, when she’s nearly done. And it has been quite a journey. So, I’m very excited to talk about Elise. Elise, will you please introduce yourself a little bit for there for the audience?

03:20 Elise: Yeah, so what’s up everyone? Yeah, just like Emily was saying I’m Elise and a fifth-year PhD student at University of Buffalo. I do organic chemistry research. So that’s kind of what I’m working on right now, synthesizing different compounds. And then primarily as well, the hope is with that to ultimately go on maybe into like academia, do some teaching or some like business type stuff. Especially like I tutor now, we’ll probably talk a little bit more about that with like kind of like side businesses and side hustles as well and stuff, so, yeah, it’s exciting.

Finances at the Beginning of Grad School

03:57 Emily: Okay. Sounds great! Let me know, let’s kind of take it back to the beginning of graduate school. I understand you got married right around that time as well.

04:05 Elise: Yes. Yeah.

04:06 Emily: So, what was going on with your finances and also, you know, your understanding of finances or your outlook on finances at that time?

04:13 Elise: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so my husband and I, we got married in May of 2017, and we actually got married the day after we graduated, which I will say made finals week very, very stressful. Very, very stressful. Yeah. And so, you know, because it’s like you still have all your tests and everything and then also double-checking, like, Hey, is the DJ good? Is the catering, all this stuff. But it was also a lot of fun because we went to a small college in Ohio, and so it was cool getting to you know, just like kind of have like a final like celebration per se with all of our friends and everything. So that was really awesome. And then after that, we actually headed out to Buffalo. One of the reasons I even chose Buffalo or UB was because at the time when we had started talking about like getting married and stuff I didn’t really care where we lived at all.

05:03 Elise: My family’s originally from Jacksonville, Florida, and my husband has a lot of family in New York. We had some friends in like this New York area as well. And so yeah, so UB was one of the places I applied to that accepted me. And then, yeah, basically after that got married, graduated honeymooned, and then headed out to Buffalo and I started doing some TAing during the summer, and then my husband was also working in retail at like a DICK’s Sporting Goods. So, yeah, so that’s kind of how we started with that. And then in regards to finances, I will say we are complete polar opposites. I’m a huge spender. One of the like embarrassing stories I share is so like my senior year, so entering my senior year of college, I had this goal. I have no idea why, it’s not even really that great of a goal, honestly, to just like blow a thousand dollars in a day. And I was a college student.

05:54 Elise: I didn’t, I mean, it was bad. But anyway, so I did that, and then I hadn’t actually read my like student bill correctly, so I didn’t even have enough money. So I blew the thousand, and then like three days later went into the admissions office and was like, “Hey, like I, is there any way I can get more money? Like I don’t have.” It was so bad. So very, very, yeah, very irresponsible, I would say, was more of my mindset. And then my husband is the complete opposite. Absolutely hates spending money whatsoever. So yes. Yeah. That’s kind of like, again, my financial background there. Yeah, I would say definitely no financial literacy whatsoever. It was just kind of like, yeah, you know, as long as the bank account’s not zero, enjoy spending.

Combined Debts and Incomes

06:38 Emily: Got it. And what about your like net worth or your combined net worth at that time? Did you all have debts? Did you have assets coming out of college?

06:46 Elise: Yeah. Yeah. So we both had student loans coming out of college. And so I had around like $30,000 or so, and then my husband had around like $46,000. My loans then went in deferment. But for his, right, we were then like six months later began making those payments. And then we also in like the fall, so like fall of 2017, we then also financed a car. And with that again, I will say I’m more so kind led this as a spender, but again, something I would recommend not doing. I remember we both walked into the dealership and I like told the dealer who was there, like the salesman. I was like, “Hey, yeah. So, you know, we’re looking for a car, our budget is $15,000, but we can go up if needed.” So again, not the best, really just not the best lines to use there. So as I said, yeah, I was super yeah, not super intentional with money or anything, so yeah.

07:46 Emily: Okay. Let me know about your incomes as well at that point. So like, what was your stipend when you started grad school? And what was your husband earning?

07:53 Elise: Yes. Yes. So for me, it started out around like basically $26,000 a year, like $26,300. And usually, that would be split up into like $23,000 the full like semester, both semesters, and then $3000 during the summer. So, like $3,200 during the summer.

08:13 Emily: Interesting. So you would have to prepare a little, I mean, in theory, you could prepare a little bit through savings to supplement over the summer, but I’m not thinking that was something that you were trying to do at that point.

08:25 Elise: No, definitely not. Yes. I remember even when we saw this you know, you’re like talking with other grad students, you see the forms and stuff. And yeah, I remember where both of us, as I said, since we were kind of more like opposite-minded, there kind of started to be very much a “Man, something’s going to need to change. Otherwise, this is going to be kind of disastrous.” Right? And even, I know like one of the things that can be like one of the leading causes of divorce, right, is like financial issues. And we didn’t want to have that. So, yeah. Definitely again, that kind of was what even really started, I would say especially for both of us, a passion for finance was kind of realizing, “Man, we are going to, just like what you’re saying, we’re going to have to start planning.”

09:08 Elise: Because like my income’s a little bit irregular. And then as I said, at the time he was working at DICK’s and so that was I think that like first semester or whatnot, that summer again making like $15,000 or whatnot. Or like 12 to $15,000. And then again, that was kind of irregular because he was working at DICK’s part-time and then also had like an internship as well. So, it again was like part-time. So not, yeah, we weren’t bringing in a ton of money. I think those first six months’ gross was maybe like $25,000 or so. And again it was all irregular, always irregular paychecks.

Money Mindset and Strategies in Grad School

09:52 Emily: Yeah. So let’s kind of talk through, you know, we have a good picture of the start. So let’s talk through like how those next few years went, and what you were learning. And maybe what strategies or mindsets you started to use along the way. Because you know, we’ll get to what the current picture is, and it’s a lot rosier than, you know, what the start was. So like let’s talk about that evolution.

10:13 Elise: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So, I would say the big thing for us was kind of a desire to make sure we were on the same page. Because I will say, when we did first get married, there weren’t I guess like a lot of like financial stressors per se, it was just, everything was very disorganized. But we weren’t having like I will say we were sort of blessed. We didn’t have like any huge thing that kind of like came up where it was like, oh no, it was just, it was like, man, we are, you know, we’re little just organized and stuff, but Hey, you know, it’s good, life’s good. Like you know, I’m doing school he’s working. And then again, I would say is more so because our paychecks were so irregular, it was kind of like a “Man, we’re going to need to be a little bit more intentional with this.”

11:00 Elise: And so that was when I started doing a little bit more research into just personal finances of like, “Hey, you know, how should we like set up a budget?” You know, what’s the best way to do that. And we ended up finding like a zero base budgeting type method. And so with doing that, it’s kind of where you’re like setting up, Hey, at the beginning of the month, this is how much we’re going to spend, which was really helpful for us, especially because of, again, that irregularity. We were then able to be like, okay, well this is for sure, you know, like our expenses. And then you know, even though the incomes are irregular, this is how we can use this excess. And then we also decided that it was like, “Hey, let’s also look to start having some financial goals together.”

11:48 Elise: I would say we both do love setting goals and achieving them together. So it was also a lot of fun kind of setting like one of them was, “Hey, let’s become debt-free.” So again, let’s be intentional with that zero-based budgeting of how can we pay off our debt? And then also like, you know, getting savings account set up, stuff like that. So I would say, but the big start with that shift was really kind of like those again, how irregular the incomes were and kind of almost seeing, “Man, if we’re not intentional about this, sure, it’s fine now. But like five years down the road, this would be just disastrous, right?” It would not, because again, if anything comes up, like it’s going to be really, really bad because we’re just not keeping track of everything thing well.

Debt Repayment Goal

12:34 Emily: I’d love to talk more about the debt repayment goal. And so, you mentioned that you both had student loans, but yours were in deferment. And you had the car loan. And so, did you use any particular like methodology? Or like how did you decide what to tackle first or how much to pay? How did all that work?

12:55 Elise: Yeah, so I will say one of the big things. So we really liked Ramsey Solutions. That was again, when I was doing like the basic Google search, right, for personal finance. I mean one of the top things that came out, and they talk about doing like the debt snowball method, paying off just smallest debt. And it was fun to feel like all of those wins with things. And then, this is interesting because like I would say at the same time as all this is happening, right? I’m also like progressing in my program as a grad student, and it was interesting, I guess kind of the similarities of, I really liked the focus that like they kind of talked about of like delaying gratification. And obviously, I mean that’s a hundred percent grad school, right?

13:40 Elise: You’re constantly delaying gratification. So, I guess as my brain was already being rewired to some degree of going from, I would say like my senior year where it’s just way more you know, kind of like, “Hey, whatever feels good right now. Like let’s just do it” to a “Man, okay. Let’s put you know, kind of submit to a process.” You know, get that like I’m delaying a pleasure, right? And then again, that intentionality. I would say that was kind of the big methodologies, but I’m not going to lie. I don’t actually know if I wasn’t in grad school, like at the same time as we were doing this, that might have been honestly a little bit, maybe too much of a rewiring all at once. But it was cool because you know, at the same time I’m running experiments and I’m learning, “Hey, this is what happens when this doesn’t work.”

14:25 Elise: Then I have to come back in, you know, or “Man, this is going to be like a five to six-year journey.” You know, like my brain’s already getting used to longer journeys than just, “Oh man, I can’t like pay off all the debt in like three months. So what’s the point, you know? So it’s just interesting all the similarities there that I would say really helped both of us, especially as we were going about achieving those goals. But the big one was yeah, just paying off smallest to largest and kind of, for us, it was realizing, “Hey, this is not going to be something that we finish in a year.” But again, it’s like grad school also, right? It isn’t something that you finish in a year. So, it was difficult, but at the same time, I don’t know, like obtaining a PhD is difficult. So I think it was nice to have like those similarities.

15:14 Emily: I love that you brought up this point because this is actually something that I bring up at the beginning of one of my seminars, which is The Graduate Student and Postdoc’s Guide to Personal Finance. And so, what I say because I know that people who attend these seminars are not necessarily, you know, like you are now like, are a super podcast listener would be like, oh, I’m super interested in personal finance. Like yeah, I’m going to really dive in. You know, they may just be like casually like, oh, I probably should learn something about money. So I’m going to show up at the seminar. So what I do to kind of like frame this is like say, you as a graduate student or postdoc, you have already made the decision to commit to this, you know, as you said, five-ish year, at least maybe 10 years, training period to set yourself up for this wonderful successful career at, you know, the start of that.

15:57 Emily: And you making the decision to do that gives you certain like personality, characteristics, like going through it, like you were saying like forward-thinking, planning ahead, committing to a process. And that, I say, if you take this sort of the personality you’re developing by being a graduate student, by being a postdoc and you translate it over to the financial side of your life, you are going to be successful. Because it does take long-term thinking. It does take delayed gratification. It does, you have to think about it as an investment in your future, whether it’s debt repayment, saving, investing, whatever it is, it’s all setting you up for an easier time in the future than you’re necessarily having right now. So, I really love that you, you know, clearly saw yourself going through this process as well. Brilliant.

Student Loans and Savings

16:39 Emily: Well, I want to ask though about, you know, regarding the debt snowball, which is a great method to use, how did you treat your student loans in there? Because they were in deferment. So, they’re a little bit different than the other types of debt.

16:49 Elise: Yes. A hundred percent. So I will say with that I should say, I guess maybe like a caveat should be, we use like a debt snowball hybrid <laugh> because yeah. So, because with the deferment, right? You did have the 0% interest and yeah, basically, the way we did it was, which, I mean, we just kind of thought of all of our debts as together, I will say. But I guess if you technically split them up, we paid off like my husband’s loans first that were broken off into the like, you know, $3000, $1000, $2,000 chunks. And then did the car, and then did like the student loans that I had. But technically the student loans that I had were higher than like our car.

17:35 Emily: So, sort of a combined avalanche snowball method. Because of the 0% due to the subsidy and deferment and so forth.

17:42 Elise: Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yes.

17:44 Emily: Gotcha. And you mentioned also earlier savings. So, how were you thinking about cash savings versus this big debt payoff goal? Like how much cash did you decide to keep on hand and for what purposes? How did you think through that?

17:57 Elise: Yes. So I will say we did use where for us, we kept it a thousand dollars. I will say though, also we did keep our expenses very, very low. And we were like pretty much every month, again, once we started being intentional and doing that zero-based budget, we had usually like $2000, $3000 a month or again, depending on the year. And as I said, our incomes were irregular. But yeah, we had the $2,000, $3,000 a month where like, if something did come up, we would just take like a pause on the debt payment. But we always had with like an emergency fund of, as I said, a thousand dollars. Again, just in case like because when we were looking at kind of like our lives, it was like, “Hey, you know, the like worst thing that could happen would not exceed really like a thousand dollars, honestly.”

18:53 Elise: Because the biggest thing for us would’ve just been the car repairs, and we actually only had, and still have, one car. So, it also kind of worked out that way. And yeah, most of our expenses I will say, and even now, are like under $2,000 a month. So it also makes it again a little bit easier to with that intentionality of okay, cool. Well, you know, I always have this amount of cash flow. And we did have later on like in our marriage, whatnot and in our journey where technically, I will say, which is bad on my part, like I have actually totaled like two cars. So, when that happened, like we did have to press pause on it and we then like saving up money. And so instead of it just going to the debt again, like $2000 or again, depending on how the income varied, it would go into savings or towards yeah getting a car.

19:51 Emily: I also skated through graduate school with a thousand dollars in a designated emergency fund savings account. Because I mean the way that you described it was also sort of similar for my husband, me, like we were renters, we only had one car, not a whole lot of financial responsibilities at that time of life. Now I did have other savings in other, like I’m really big into targeted savings accounts. I had other cash in other places that were like designated for car repairs or like other purposes. So, it wasn’t like that was our only cash on hand, but I like what you said, because you know, you had the thousand dollars in savings, but every month, if something came up, you had a thousand, $2,000, you could devote to that new thing that popped up because you were so, you were cash flowing so much debt, you know, above the minimum payments every single month. So I definitely, I don’t know how much I’d recommend it, but I definitely see how you could, you know, get by with that. Were there any other like strategies or mindsets or anything that you wanted to share from, you know, that time in graduate school?

Intentionality

20:49 Elise: Yeah. I think honestly the big thing is just kind of what we’ve been talking about. Just like the intentionality. Like, I don’t know, even, I feel like just kind of when you’re choosing a lifestyle. Again, that’s another thing that I think for us going straight from like college to grad school and everything we didn’t do a lot of like the lifestyle creep. And I will say a lot of that maybe I should probably should credit as well to like my husband, because as I said, he’s way more like frugal than I am, but it is really nice, I will say. And again, this is kind of similar thinking to like grad school, it’s like once you’re in a process, it kind of becomes the norm, you know, and you don’t even think about it. So even for both us, like when people are like, “Oh man, you guys don’t,” you know, there would be times where people would say like, “You don’t have two cars?” And it’s like, well, you know, yeah, we have one, but actually we’re like good <laugh>, you know, but it becomes the norm.

21:37 Elise: Or same with when I’m talking about like grad school to people, right? And you know, sometimes you get the whole like, “Wait, you mean you don’t just work like a nine to five in grad school?” And it’s like, no, no, but it’s like, that’s the norm for me. You know what I mean? So again, once you’re in these, I think it’s just the same with personal finance. Like you really do get to set and determine, to some degree, you know, “Hey, this is the lifestyle I’m going to have.” And, I would also say with that, it also becomes harder if you like set a norm that’s maybe a little bit higher that you can’t maintain. Because then you, again, you have to like almost rewire your brain, which is one of the huge benefits, again as I was saying, I think of like being in the PhD program and also the personal finance journey. Because there are just so many similarities that can really, really assist you.

22:24 Emily: I agree.

Commercial

22:27 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD Workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success! Now back to the interview.

Supplementing Your Stipend

23:33 Emily: You mentioned earlier that you were tutoring. Like what was your, how did you supplement your stipend? I guess I’ll put it that way, during grad school.

23:41 Elise: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. Yes. So I will say, yeah, so for us, again, as we were kind of on like our debt repayment journey. You know, there kind of starts as you’re like going, going, going, it’s like, “Man, like what, are there any other things I can do to like speed up the process?” Again, similar with like grad school, right? Sometimes you might have weeks where it’s like, “Man, I actually, yeah, I’m going to put in more time. Or okay, I’m going to not do this because I want to, you know, I’m so close. I just man, just got to push through.” And so that was kind of how that started. And then I was looking for different like side businesses or side hustles and things to do. And during the pandemic, actually we did a little bit of like DoorDash, you know, just because you’re like in your car and just dropping off.

24:22 Elise: I mean, it was great, you know. You just pick up the food, drop off the food, and then like wave to the person from your car or whatnot. So super safe and everything. And so doing that, it was kind of like, “Oh this is cool. Like we can supplement income, you know, doing this.” And then also, as I said, our incomes have always been very irregular. And my husband, after working in the retail then went into more of like sales, which was still making around like a 30, 35 or again, depending, because it’s very irregular. But even with that, I think that was helpful. Just even for both of us to see, “Man, like it is kind of cool how like, you know, you can increase income just by like approaching or working towards something from a different angle.”

25:06 Elise: And again, I think just like when you’re working on research projects, right? Sometimes you need like a different angle or a different thought process to kind of come in and be like, “Oh cool. Actually I could approach this problem, look to solve this problem from this angle instead of just this way.” And then with that, so then it was like, man, I’m doing all this stuff with organic chemistry. And so, what would be a good like side hustle I could do that’s more related to organic chemistry? Because obviously DoorDash is not really related to organic chemistry at all. And I had always tutored like a little bit, but it was more so like I would help out like you know, like tutor some like high schoolers at like church or whatnot. Or there’d be someone who would recommend like, “Hey, can you help this student?” I’d be like, “Yeah, sure.” But I use a platform called Wyzant.

Wyzant Tutoring Income

25:50 Elise: And so I started doing that last year actually. And it was awesome. It was I think really, really cool just because I loved it, because I loved being able to teach. I love being able to talk and like communicate with students and explain concepts. And it was great too, because it’s like an online platform, and I feel like you know, obviously everyone has different like opinions and stuff about online learning, but I think a lot of people have really gotten used to it as well. And so it’s also really cool. Because this platform’s just great. And the students like they’re great, you know, it’s just awesome. Being able to like teach and communicate again that one-on-one. Yeah, so it’s just been really, really awesome and it’s been great too. Because then I get to do like organic chemistry on the side, which is also what I’m doing in lab. So I think that’s been really awesome.

26:35 Emily: Another tie-in with what I teach in many different venues, which is if you can somehow employ the specialty that you’re developing in graduate school in some other arena, you’re probably going to get paid like at a better rate than, well, one staying inside academia, like, you know, maybe tutoring at your university, and also, or just trying something totally different that doesn’t use that skillset, like you were saying with DoorDash.

27:00 Elise: A hundred percent.

27:00 Emily: Can I ask what your like pay rate or how much you’re earning like monthly is from Wyzant?

27:05 Elise: Yes. Yes. So in general, which, I will say I started it last year in June, so it wasn’t actually a huge part honestly, even of like our like debt-free journey per se. But yeah, I make on average around like a thousand to 1200 a month from it. And then I charge with it like $50 an hour for the tutoring. And usually it’s like at the college level. And then there’s a couple of students in high school that I tutor as well. But yeah, it’s awesome because again and just like what you were saying, and even like some of like the articles and things that you have posted as well, right? It’s also nice because, to some degree, right? Especially like you’re becoming like an expert, you know, in a field.

27:53 Elise: And so, it’s very, very helpful for me honestly just continuing to man, make sure I’m really communicating well. And then also it is great when, you know, they can both kind of coincide. Because like I do, you know, organic chemistry at work and I can come home in the evenings, you know, for like a couple hours or so, or during the weekends for a couple hours. And yeah, it’s really, really nice. And then, I will say, it does slow down a little bit like in January and then December as well. Just because, you know, not as many students are taking classes and stuff during those times, but yeah. So far it’s been really, really great. And I’ve really been yeah, enjoying just the one-on-one tutoring and mentoring with students.

Current Financial Situation

28:35 Emily: Yeah. That’s a great pay rate. That’s a great addition to your budget. I mean, you know, you’re on the order of magnitude of like a grad student paycheck. I mean, you’re not quite there, but it’s the same, you know, you’re in the neighborhood. So, that’s awesome. Give us an update then on how, like what your finances are like right now. You know, we went over at the beginning of graduate school, you know, the various debts that you had. What do your finances look like now? We’re recording this in January, 2022.

29:00 Elise: Yes. Yes. So now yeah, we’re a hundred percent debt-free. So got rid of all of that, the $85,500. And as I said, that was a process, right? The 47 months paying that off. But again, like grad school’s a process too. So, you know, I think that’s one of the cool things about processes is like all the stuff you can learn about yourself in them. And then right now we’re working on increasing just like our emergency fund. So, as we were talking about like a thousand, you know, it’s fine for like, in my opinion, it’s fine for a starter emergency fund. Really, I would not recommend, you know, spending the rest of your life with a $1,000 emergency fund and especially you know, we have a baby coming, so that’s really, that of course changes things where it’s like, yeah, a thousand dollars isn’t, you know, we don’t want to have that for like 20 years.

29:47 Elise: But yeah, so we’re looking to increase that right now to, which more would be like four to six months for us, which is like $10,000, just to have that nice and set up. And that should be set up in like early March or whatnot is when we should have that. And then right now, after that, we’re also looking to, we’re going to start investing, so we’re going to max out two Roth IRAs. So just kind of again, which that’s a way longer process, you know, but just getting that money saved up for retirement. And I think for that, we’ll probably I’ll be using Fidelity and then my husband as well, who set his up either with Fidelity or maybe Vanguard, because he works for Geico now. And so with that, I think they have Vanguard.

30:39 Elise: So yeah, we’ll see with that. And then, I mean I suppose we’re not a hundred percent sure what like the next five years will look like for us. And so we’re also in the process of we’ll look to get something, once our daughter’s born, we’ll look to get something set up for her for college or just future educational goals. We’re thinking of it’ll probably just be we’ll just set up a 529. And New York has some nice like tax benefits when you set up a 529. And then yeah, and then it will be like saving up for a house. Right now, our goal is to buy a house in cash, because again, with the current lifestyle that we have, as I said, it’s less than $2,000, but we are very content with that. Obviously, when our daughter’s born, you know, that will increase. That will increase a little bit.

31:28 Elise: But yeah, we think we can probably cash flow, because again, my husband’s income continues to go up and my income, hopefully, you know, will also go up beyond the graduate stipend cash flow, hopefully around like 30,000 so a year and we’re hoping to then buy, I don’t know, maybe like a condo or townhouse or single family. Again, depending what, you know, where we go for like maybe $120,000 or something like that. So we’ll see. Yeah, but that right now is kind of the plan with everything. And right now the biggest focus is just yeah, getting that savings increase from a thousand to the, or like I think right now it’s like $1,800 to $10,000. And then yeah, getting those Roth IRAs maxed out.

32:13 Emily: I really like it actually when, this point that you’ve volunteered to do this interview, at this point of we just became debt-free, and now we are ready to start these next steps. I love it that we’re talking at this point. Because whenever you have someone like you, who’s gone through this very intense, very intentional debt repayment journey, you get all of your, you know, systems and processes and mindsets, everything’s set up. So your cash flowing above your, you know, your expenses a thousand, $2,000, $3,000 a month. And it’s all been going towards this debt. And now you get to the point where you get to switch it, and it’s like this massive, you know, amount of cash flow. Like I think of it as like a huge like fire hose like you now get to direct to other goals. And I love that you have this like order. Okay, first is the emergency fund, Roth IRAs, 529, you know, you have your priorities set out. So, absolutely love that. It’s very apparent, you know, these last years have been preparing you for this state. I also want to add that I went through, again, the exact same process when we were pregnant with our first child, that I was looking at that thousand dollars emergency fund going, “Not going to cut it anymore.”

Preparing for Baby’s Arrival

33:15 Emily: And I think our goal was also something like 10 or $15,000 as that next thing to do, like before the baby comes. Which turned out to be very useful. I actually wanted to talk a little bit more about that. Are there any other, you know, you just mentioned sort of long-term financial plans and of course getting the emergency fund together, but are there any other specific financial preparations that you’ve been making or thinking through for your baby’s arrival? Like, I don’t know, like health insurance or childcare like these other, maybe leave? What other sort of major financial things are you working through right now?

33:46 Elise: Yes, yes. No, that’s a great question. So, I will say in regards to like preparing for our daughter and everything, the big thing was I got to have a fun time. Well actually, yeah, both my husband Kyle and I, but kind of doing stuff where, yeah, like reading those actual like health insurance statements. Not going to lie, when I first got to UB, they gave me the handbook and I was like, “Okay, cool, thank you.” And then did not even glance at it. And so, but just, you know, making sure that we know like, Hey, this is like our deductible, this is the amount we will be expected to pay. And it’s actually kind of cool. I will say I have been very blessed, like the lab I’m in, there’s actually like three other students who have also had kids as well.

34:27 Elise: And so for them, it’s also nice because you know, we all technically have the same insurance, and so yeah. And UB I will say does have pretty good health insurance as well. So it’s nice. So we’re of course planning for that where it’s like, okay, cool. We should you know, that’ll cost us like $200 and then, you know, you have all the visits as well, which we again, since we do the zero-base budgeting, we just budget for like, okay, this month, you know, it’s going to be this much for these visits. And then everything else in regards to just like kind of preparing for like stuff and everything, that has more so come from just kind of like asking other people in our lives and also just like other grad students, “Hey, like how much, you know, do you find yourself like spending for diapers?”

35:13 Elise: And I will say also there is a lot of information that is online as well. So it’s kind of like using a mix of like the online plus, like what, you know, our friends are actually just telling us that, “Hey, this is how much I spend for this.” Which has also been super, super helpful. Or like, “Hey, you need this, you know, this is the cost of this.” And just like adding all of that up, like, you know, car seat yeah, cribs, stuff like that. So that’s good. I would say that’s been kind of how we’ve been primarily preparing financially for that. In regards to leave, I’ll have three months of maternity leave that I’ll be taking. And then I have, yeah, kind of like a fellowship that goes through that. And then, so that’s kind of something like, again, me and my boss talked about like maybe a month and a half ago or so, just about, “Hey, this is kind of like the expectations there.”

36:04 Emily: So that’s paid, just to be clear?

36:06 Elise: Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

36:08 Emily: Fantastic!

36:09 Elise: Yes. Yes. So I would say that is, that is a nice thing again about like you know, every state’s different, but like New York does have that paid family leave. And then my husband as well is going to be taking, because as I said, yeah, he’s working for Geico now. So they do paternity family leave or like paid family leave as well. For him, his is a month though, is what, yeah, right now we’re planning on for him. And then, yeah, so that’s kind of, I would say those are the big, like financial preparations we’re doing. But again it is something that, especially, I don’t know when we first like kind of found out, I just like Googled like how to prepare for a baby. And it’s amazing how like just many articles and all this stuff that comes up, and it’s all so different again, based on the insurances, which I’m sure even, you know, right? Like there’s, so there’s just so many different variables. So I think it’s very helpful, at least for us, it’s been very helpful, like talking with other people, talking with peers, talking people from church, talking with people from our places of employment. Yeah. And just like to get that information.

37:08 Emily: I agree. I think those, especially your labmates. Same insurance, same advisor.

37:12 Elise: Exactly. Yeah.

Childcare Decision-Making

37:13 Emily: Been through it recently. Like that’s going to be the absolute best resource. Yeah, definitely. And I asked about childcare earlier, so do you have a plan yet for after your leave ends what’s going to go on?

37:25 Elise: Yes. Okay. So I will say so for that plan, we will. Yeah. We’ll kind of see, because right now, again I don’t think, so we don’t have like anything against daycare or anything like that. Like I think, and UB’s daycare actually is supposed to be like fantastic again, like two of my coworkers use it and they’ve been very, very pleased. For us though right now, so since with every, and again, we don’t know everything will happen with the pandemic, but so my husband, technically he does work from home right now. And then for me, I’m man, I’m just not a hundred percent sure if I would just, you know, maybe just have a weird schedule as opposed to like putting our daughter in daycare because one of the things my boss, obviously he wants us to make sure like we’re getting our research and everything done, but with organic chemistry, there’s a lot of stuff where like you set up a reaction for like six hours or you set up a reaction for four hours, you know, and then you’re like doing some writing stuff and like research stuff.

38:22 Elise: And so for me, yeah, I’m not, I think right now the plan is kind of where it would just be I would just kind of have a schedule set up of like, I’m just going to be in lab at weird hours, like from eight to noon and then maybe come back from like eight to 10 or you know, just weird scattered hours. But we’ll see, that could also, you know, we could also start that and then a week in if I’m like, “This is terrible.” And it’s like, okay, well she’s going to go to daycare. So, it’ll kind of depend too, I think that’s another thing with even talking with people in regards to pregnancy, it affects every woman differently. And so yeah, as much as I love to be planner, sadly, I can’t plan out exactly, “This is how I’m going to feel a hundred percent.” So yeah. But right now the plan is just, I would just have kind of weird hours and just stagger things. And again with that, at least right now, it doesn’t sound all that bad because again, it’ll take a lot of intentionality, you know, I would have to like schedule things out, but yeah, I think it would be fine, but we’ll see. We will see what happens.

39:21 Emily: I will recommend for you in case you haven’t listened to it or any other interested listeners, the interview I did back in season one with Dr. Heather. Because she talked about when she had her first child at the end of graduate school, similar timing to you, how she and her husband set up a overlapping “we’re providing our own childcare” schedule. I think he was teaching actually, he had like a visiting professorship, something like that. So like you said, there was some work that could be done from home. There was some work that had to be in person for both of them, but they just kind of worked out the schedule so that.

39:51 Elise: I like that. Yeah.

39:52 Emily: You know, they could each be with their child. I will say that since then, I believe all their children are in all the daycare and all the preschool, like as much as possible after they got out of this grad student phase. But that’s what they did for kind of the finishing up of grad school, like period. Yeah, so that’s a really, really interesting interview if that’s kind of your like philosophy and the approach that you want to take. And it’s actually a little bit similar to what my husband and I wanted to do as well.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

40:14 Emily: So, awesome! Well, Elise, this has been such a delight to chat with you. Congratulations on becoming debt-free! Congratulations on the pregnancy! I’m so excited to kind of see where, you know, where your new financial next phase of your journey takes you. Because like I said, you, you have all these goals and you’re really ready, right, to tackle them. So it’s awesome. I would like to ask you the question that I end all my interviews with, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on during the interview or it can be something completely different.

40:45 Elise: Yes, yes. So I would say, yeah, the biggest one I always recommend is just to do a zero-based budget. Again, you can also budget, right, where you just kind of look at the end of the month. But I just think, especially even honestly more so when you’re working on like a stipend, just get into the habit. Because again, you’re already learning how to be intentional anyway. So just go ahead and get into the habit of with finances as well, “Hey, this is how much I’m going to spend” you know, in each of these categories. Or, you know, whatever stuff you have set up, or this is much I want to save. You know, in our case it was like paying off debt and then building up savings and investing stuff. But again, whatever your financial goals are like, it’s just so much, I feel like, yeah, just so much easier and so much more helpful when you just zero-base budget it. And it also just like again with grad school, as you like are disciplined and are intentional, your confidence grows, you know?

41:42 Elise: And so I think that’s another thing too, where it’s awesome to, you know, be confident as you’re like doing experiments and stuff, but also confident in the way you’re handling your money. And when you’re able to create a plan and then, you know, like it doesn’t have to be perfect, but then able to like achieve some of the things within that plan. It’s just awesome. Yeah. To then be able to grow that confidence. So for sure.

42:05 Emily: Great advice. Well, thank you so much, Elise, for joining me for this interview!

42:09 Elise: Yes. Thank you, Emily. Thank you so much for having me on.

Outtro

42:17 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 3 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and increasing cash flow. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student Worked Multiple Side Jobs to Pay Off Debt

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jeanelle Horcasitas, a PhD in Cultural Studies from UCSD who worked multiple jobs to stay afloat during grad school. Because of some financial events in her childhood and being a first-generation college student, Jeanelle was determined to do her PhD without accumulating any more student loan debt. In fact, she accomplished some major financial goals during graduate school, such as self-funding for a few months leading up to her defense after her dissertation fellowship ended. Don’t miss Jeanelle’s reflections on how her financial goals have changed since finishing grad school and how she’s now resisting hustle culture.

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Teaser

00:00 Jeanelle: Before, like I said, I felt very survival mode, hustle mode. Like I’ve just got to work hard, work, hard, work hard. And I was very burned out by the time I finished graduate school. But now I’m more of, you know, I’m doing the smart thing. I’m saving. I’m saving for my future and doing what I need to. So, I’ve backed up a little off of that and given myself more grace.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 11, Episode 3, and today my guest is Dr. Jeanelle Horcasitas, a PhD in Literature and Cultural Studies from UCSD who worked multiple jobs to stay afloat during grad school. Because of some financial events in her childhood and being a first-generation college student, Jeanelle was determined to do her PhD without accumulating any additional student loan debt. In fact, she accomplished some major financial goals during graduate school, including self-funding for a few months leading up to her defense after her dissertation fellowship ended. Don’t miss Jeanelle’s reflections on how her financial goals have changed since finishing grad school and how she’s now resisting hustle culture.

01:14 Emily: Jeanelle and I first connected way back in 2015 when she was working as the Grad Life intern at UCSD. I had very recently launched Personal Finance for PhDs. I reached out to her cold and pitched her The Graduate Student and Postdoc’s Guide to Personal Finance, which was my only seminar offering at that time. She liked the idea and advocated for it within her office, but it didn’t go forward right away. I actually didn’t work with UCSD for the first time until 2020, but Jeanelle had planted the first seeds all those years before. If you are a fan of this podcast, would you please follow Jeanelle’s lead and request that your Graduate School, Graduate Student Association, Postdoc Office, etc. work with me in 2022? I offer a variety of live and pre-recorded seminars and workshops on topics from taxes to investing to cash flow management. My most popular seminar remains The Graduate Student and Postdoc’s Guide to Personal Finance, and although it’s changed a lot over the years, it still touches on a wide variety of personal finance topics so there’s something for everyone. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. And hey, even if they aren’t able to work with me this year, your recommendation could plant a seed for an engagement in a future year. Thank you very much! Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jeanelle Horcasitas.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:47 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jeanelle Horcasitas. She was a graduate student at UCSD and has been finished with her PhD for about two years, moving on to the working world. And so we are going to talk about how graduate school went financially for her, how she funded it and so forth, and then also how her, you know, financial life is going now. So Jeanelle, thank you so much for joining me for the podcast. Thank you for volunteering for this interview. And would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

03:13 Jeanelle: Yes! Thank you so much, Emily, for bringing me on. I’m excited to speak with you today. So, I went to undergrad at UCLA for English and I did my PhD at UC San Diego in literature and cultural studies. And, you know, since I’ve received my PhD, I did a multitude of jobs within my time at graduate school, but since graduating, I spent some time in graduate career and professional development for biomedical scientists for about a year and a half. And I’ve recently transitioned into the tech space for a company called Digital Ocean. And, you know, one of my biggest motivations for school and getting through it was the fact that I’m first generation. I also come from a low-income family. So a big part of that was the fact that I had to be the one to get myself through school, to pay for it. I knew that my parents were in a financial situation. And I learned that at about 18 when they got divorced, I experienced bankruptcy, foreclosure at the time. And that was very transformative for me at that age to just recognize the impact of financial decisions. And so part of, you know, why I wanted to complete my PhD completely debt-free was because of those reasons of just knowing what having that burden can do to you and how it can impact your future.

Undergrad Funding and Student Loans

04:51 Emily: Wow. Yeah, that’s such such an impressionable age to be going through something like that. So thank you for sharing that with us. Since you mentioned being 18, when you started college, did you also have that determination to do your undergrad debt-free?

05:06 Jeanelle: So when I was 18, I actually went to community college for a few years beforehand, which was really great because since I was low-income, I was able to receive very generous grants like the Pell Grant. And I did my FAFSA, and at that point I just really wanted to start my undergrad. And I remember saying the only thing I’ll go in debt for will be my student, like education and I’ll do student loans. So, I signed away, didn’t really know what I was doing. I did receive fellowships for my undergrad, but I was living in Westwood in Los Angeles next to Bel-Air. And as you know, the cost of living is very high, especially to live in the dorms. So I was only there for about two years, but I did come out of debt. And so at that moment, I hadn’t really felt you know, I need to do this degree debt-free, but I tried to keep the amount I was taking on pretty minimal. So I feel like I didn’t graduate with too much student loan debt, but I did have some.

06:15 Emily: And did you go directly from undergrad to grad school?

06:19 Jeanelle: No. I took a year off to work full-time and try to pay down some of the student loans. And then I went to graduate school after that for about five and a half years.

06:30 Emily: Okay. So entering graduate school, you have a new perspective and you want to do this whole thing debt-free. Were you still carrying any student loan debt at that point, or had you cleared all of it?

06:40 Jeanelle: No. So at the time of graduate school, I still had most of my student loans from my undergrad, and I also had a car payment and car loans. So I carried those two things, and I think the stress came from the fact that I wasn’t getting any younger. I was about to sign away five and a half to seven years of my life. And I knew that I wouldn’t be making a ton of money. I was given like a pretty decent fellowship, but living in San Diego, it still couldn’t cover everything. And so I think from the very beginning, I knew that I wanted to put some sort of plan into place that I was still going to graduate school, but that I would be paying off these loans simultaneously. So that by the time I graduated, I’d be in a better financial position to buy a home or just to not have that hanging over my head for longer than I would’ve liked it to be.

How Does Funding Work in Your Department?

07:53 Emily: Yeah. Very, very ambitious. But I can see how you got there. Tell me a bit about how your field, your department is typically funded. You mentioned you had a fellowship for two years. Is that something you were seeing offered at like multiple different schools? And how did you end up at UCSD in particular, I guess, and specifically related to the finances?

08:13 Jeanelle: That’s a great question. So for the most part, my specific department, they don’t receive a lot of funding. They actually, most of the graduate students have to do TAships and, you know, find a teaching assistant position. And that’s how they get it paid for. Mine was actually through nomination that someone at the literature department had to do for me, and the graduate school, they were the ones that, you know, went through candidates and selected and made that decision. And so, the reason I chose UCSD is because it was such a generous, like first two years will cover you with this stipend. And then the next two years, you’re kind of guaranteed that TAship. And then you figure it out from there. I had a couple of other offers from two other graduate schools, where one was just offering like a fellowship for one quarter, which wasn’t enough for me.

09:21 Jeanelle: And then the other was I think, just a year. And so, I was like, I don’t want to have to pay for this. And I’m going to choose where the money is for the most part. And it ended up being a good decision for that reason. And just for the folks that I got to work with. So I was happy with that, because it seems like it really varies. It’s interesting because it was all UCs where these offers came from. So they have different ways of, I guess, enticing students to come with what kind of money they might have or available for fellowships.

09:58 Emily: I think that’s a point that prospective graduate students really, really need to hear, like they need to investigate the typical funding path in their field. Is it usually from TAship, so that you know, if someone’s offering you a significant fellowship, that it’s really special and they’re really trying to recruit you. And yeah, you may have to do TAships after that ends, but when does it end? Is it two years? Is it one year? You know, how much money is being directed toward you, especially as a recruiting tool. So love that you were, you know, analyzing that at that point.

Sources of Income Beyond Fellowship

10:28 Emily: So you mentioned earlier that you worked like a lot of different jobs during your PhD. And so, what did you do beyond, okay. I have this fellowship for a couple years. I know that you had a fellowship again at the end. And also the TAing that you mentioned. Did you work other jobs in addition to those? And also were they through the university or like completely independent?

10:49 Jeanelle: I had the first two years covered from the fellowship. And the last two were for the TAship. And then my fifth year I got a dissertation fellowship. However, within that time I was working multiple jobs at different places. So for the first two, two and a half years, even though I was on fellowship and taking my, my graduate courses, I was also a graduate student researcher or GSR for the the Graduate Office at UCSD. And I did some freelance writing as well. And I also worked as a student worker for the county of San Diego’s housing office. And so, you know, some, they weren’t all at the same time, but at one point I think they were all happening at once, which was pretty overwhelming, but it was nice, especially for the county job because I could work full-time during the summer, which was great because the fellowship actually it was nice, but it wasn’t always enough to get you through the summer. And they didn’t offer summer fellowships during that time.

11:57 Jeanelle: They started doing it later on during my time at the program. And then during my TAship, I really wanted to focus on teaching, but I had an opportunity to adjunct at the community college as well. So, in addition to TAing a couple of classes, I also taught one to two classes at the community college, which was a great experience. And then during one summer I did an internship in Washington DC. So there were a lot of different jobs that I was doing both, you know, if I had to go in somewhere, or freelancing, mostly writing or editing with different folks.

Side Hustling Amongst Peers

12:40 Emily: I can totally understand your motivation to take on this extra work for extra money. Because of, you know, mentioning your goals about clearing the student loan debt and the car debt and so forth. If you had not had those extra circumstances in your life, not that they’re that extra, because a lot of people have those things. But was the stipend enough to live on, or was it like no, no, everybody has to be side hustling, even if they don’t have, you know, prior student loan debt or whatever? Like, were your peers all doing this greater degree of work as well?

13:09 Jeanelle: Oh, that’s a great question. I think it really comes down to the individual and, you know, what they can take. Personally, I didn’t feel that the stipend was enough living in San Diego. The only time that it felt like it was livable was my first couple years when I was in the graduate student subsidized housing, because it’s so much cheaper. Once I had to live outside of those bounds, the cost of living is just incredible. And, you know, you’re thinking about how am I going to live, but also how am I going to eat? I have, you know, my car, my gas, my car payment, insurance, all these things. Like I said, if you’re fully independent, which I was from my parents it could be a lot at once.

14:02 Jeanelle: And so, I had a mix of, I guess, observations of folks who, there were some people that were like me that were doing at least a couple of jobs at the same time. But then there were some that were just TAing and that was fine. They seemed to be okay, but they were also in graduate housing or they were living with many roommates, which is something else I didn’t really want, and luckily my partner came to move like halfway through my program. And that actually helped a lot as far as support. So, it really depends on the person, but from what I saw, you know, there was a big group that did have to do extra. And then some that they had to sacrifice in different ways, like living with many people or living really far away and commuting, et cetera.

Money Management and Keeping a Budget

14:56 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for sharing those observations as well. So with all these different sources of income and all the different expenses and goals that you had, how were you doing the money management part of things? Like, were you keeping a budget? How did that work?

15:11 Jeanelle: Yeah, so as far as budgeting, I tried the Mint app. And then I was trying this other app called EveryDollar. The issues with those apps that I found were, it captured like your monthly overview of what you were making, but the cash flow of, you know, when the bills come out versus when you get money in and what you actually have enough to pay for groceries that week, or, you know, gas, whatever it might be, it didn’t always line up. And so this was something that my partner and I, we were struggling a lot with, especially when we combined our finances after we got married. And so we found it easiest to create an Excel spreadsheet and it’s just day by day.

16:01 Jeanelle: And it has the categories to the left. But it’s really nice for us because we can really see where we are in real-time and know, okay, if you’re getting paid this Friday, maybe we could do a little more extra fun this weekend, or we know this is coming up. We have to put aside savings for this so that we can sequence it a bit better than these apps that are just, you have this much money for the month when it’s not necessarily true. You don’t have all that money like next week yet. Especially if you’re getting paid biweekly, which for some of my jobs I was.

16:38 Emily: Yeah, I can imagine working with, like, as you said, you had so many different jobs, all the different pay schedules that you must have been dealing with, and then, you know, like your fellowship stopped over the summer, for example, like you mentioned earlier, like it’s just a lot of moving parts. And I do agree that when you have a lot of moving parts, ultimately building your own spreadsheet is maybe the fastest way to a good solution that works for you. So thank you for sharing that with us.

Final PhD Year Funding

17:02 Emily: So you also mentioned earlier that you were funded in your fifth year by a dissertation fellowship, but you said you took five and a half years to finish graduate school. So let’s square that circle. What was your funding like for the last half year?

17:17 Jeanelle: So my last year was actually my fellowship, that was the highest amount I had received. And so, when I say it was a higher amount, it was only like $5,000, you know, more than what the other years had been. But that little bump did help. But, for that one year, I really wanted to finish my dissertation. And so, I had to say no to a lot of my extra jobs that I had. And, like I said, I have a spouse and it was nice to have you know, that support. He works full-time. And he could help with some of those extra, you know, expenses that couldn’t be covered by my stipend alone or anything like that. However, because I knew that I wanted to finish, I had planned, okay, you know, I’m not going to enroll the next year.

18:19 Jeanelle: I’m going to take leave of absence if I don’t finish at the exact year mark, but I know they’re not going to give me any more money after that. So we planned ahead and I decided to teach for one semester during that time. So, I just taught one class and then the rest of the time was dissertating. But all of that went into like a savings. We knew that that was going to be the gap of whatever time off extra I would need without getting my stipend. And so basically from January to August, or no, January to December, for about a year, I had worked on the dissertation, but the money stopped in the summer. So I didn’t have money coming in for about four months. And so I was able to be covered for about three months, and then I was starting to feel really stressed looking for jobs and seeing what we were going to do. So by that last month, when I knew I had my defense date, all those things, I was doing a lot of freelance extra work because by then the savings had run out. So I would say, from that extra time of teaching, I had saved about like a three month, like emergency fund as I wasn’t working during the summer.

19:41 Emily: That end of graduate school, getting to that defense date is such, such a busy period and such a stressful period. And you did as best you could, it sounds like to, you know, be doing the planning ahead financially, but it’s tough that, you know, at the very end there, when you’re applying for jobs, you’re preparing for the defense and all of that stuff that the financial stress had to come back in at that point. But I’m glad it didn’t go on for too long. You finished up very quickly. Yeah.

Starting Dissertation Debt-Free

20:06 Jeanelle: I just wanted to add one thing. I will say, at that time, like when I started my dissertation fellowship, we were debt-free. We didn’t have any more consumer debt. And we were actively saving for this time I would be off but also saving for our house. So the end of that summer was extra stressful because that’s when we bought our first town home condo. So that was an added layer of I need a job because we need to pay for this new place that we just got.

20:35 Emily: Wow. Yeah, that is a lot to put on one, you know, short few-month period, but it is really good to hear that you were done with the debt, especially the student loans, because you know, you mentioned taking a leave of absence. I would guess that, with not being a student anymore, your payments would’ve kicked back in, had you not already been finished with paying that off so that would’ve been like another thing to pay for during that time.

21:02 Jeanelle: The other thing is health insurance. They stop your health insurance. Like I said, luckily I could get on my spouse’s for that short amount of time, but I know that that’s not always the case for everyone. So I’m always like weary of just like, this is my experience, but that’s not always the case. And to think ahead of things like that, if you’re going to do that, like health insurance costs.

21:22 Emily: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s good just to know, like you sort of tick down all these boxes, I have to consider this. I have to consider this so that someone else can, if they don’t make the same decisions as you, they have different situation, whatever, that’s fine. But just the thought process is good to hear.

Commercial

21:37 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2021 tax return, which are available at PFforPhDs.com/tax/. I hope you will check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which are linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. I offer one workshop on preparing your annual tax return for graduate students and one workshop on calculating your quarterly estimated tax for fellowship and training grant recipients. The next live Q&A call for the annual tax return workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is coming up on Sunday, February 13th. It would be my pleasure to help you save you time and potentially money this tax season, so don’t hesitate to reach out. Now back to our interview.

Setting Financial Goals

23:04 Emily: So you mentioned, you know, by the time you got to the end of graduate school, you had cleared the debt, you’re working on other financial goals. You were then, you got married at some point. And so you and your partner were able to work on these things together. Can you tell me more about those financial goals that you started setting at that point, whether that’s toward the end of graduate school or after graduate school?

23:24 Jeanelle: So when my husband and I got engaged, we were pretty, I would say hesitant to get married for a while because we both had parents that were divorced and a lot of it had to do with financial issues. And so that was a big factor in getting married and figuring out how we were going to do things together. And so before we had gotten engaged, we both were very motivated to pay off our car. We both had car loans and student loans. So at that point, when we got engaged, I had paid off my car, he had paid off his student loans and all we had were basically those reverse things remaining. But now we had this wedding, and these expectations. And so we had to make some pretty hard decisions as far as, you know, this is our budget.

24:17 Jeanelle: We’re not going to go beyond this. We’re going to have a small courthouse wedding, which is what we had with immediate family and we’re gonna have a small get together at a community center. And so, we budgeted at like $10K I would say, and it was probably like $8K that we ended up for everything. And so that was a motivating factor because we wanted to go into our marriage not with anything extra outside of our loan and our cars. And so, I would say like about five months after we got married is when we really combined everything and joined forces and got rid of all of that debt and then started thinking about a house. And so, that was like our main goal is let’s just help each other out.

25:08 Jeanelle: We’re in this together now. Let’s pay these things off, let’s put together what we can for our house. And then start thinking about other things like retirement, because I felt pretty stressed about the fact that I was almost 30. I hadn’t had put anything away for retirement. And they don’t really, they don’t do that for you in graduate school. And it’s just something I didn’t know. I didn’t come from a family that, you know, had made good financial decisions. And so, it felt really tough sometimes to know what was the right thing to do at times.

Internal Motivation for Working on Personal Finance

25:46 Emily: It sounds like you, even though you, you know, were approaching 30 and didn’t have anything in retirement savings, it sounds like you really had your head on straight though about like understanding your own internal motivations for working on personal finance, the budgeting, obviously you’ve been doing, the hustling. So like the elements, right, for financial success, I can easily see were there. And it was like, okay, you clear the debt, you get the house, you’re ready to go, right? You’re ready to hit the ground running. Is that how you felt about it since like getting your post-PhD jobs and the house and how are you doing now, I guess, with these financial goals and dreams?

26:21 Jeanelle: Thank you for that. I like to feel validated because there was just so much I didn’t know. There’s still a lot I don’t know. Since then, I feel like I’ve been able to detach myself a little bit from that tussle and survival mode that I think I’ve been raised on my whole life and experienced just growing up and seeing family struggle and my family struggle. And then just also what’s still happening especially to graduate students and the kind of, you know, these difficult situations that they might be in. So since then, you know, I feel motivated still to do the next thing. So the next thing I’d really love to do is pay off our house. I think that would be really great and would set us up really well.

27:21 Jeanelle: And that’s mostly because I’d to beef up my retirement and just be very aggressive with that because, like I said, I feel like I lost some time for the, you know, those 10 years, I didn’t really do anything since I had turned, you know, 18. And that’s one thing I really wish and regret. But, like I said, because I don’t know much I was a little nervous, but we started talking to a financial advisor and this was something like I said, no one in my family had, and I never really knew what to expect. So we spent some time interviewing folks and figuring out who would actually tell us, like, this is how this is how you invest. This is good because of X reason and someone who would explain those things to us.

28:14 Jeanelle: So I think since then, I feel like I’ve been able to hone in a little bit better on what I want to do financially for my future, in a way that I feel more confident. Before, like I said, I felt very survival mode, hustle mode. Like I’ve just got to work hard, work, hard, work hard. And I was very burned out by the time I finished graduate school. And when I finished, and I defended, I worked right away, and I’ve always been working. And even so, I was still doing freelance stuff. I just felt like I couldn’t say no. I felt like I always needed to keep money flowing in. But now I’m more of, you know, I’m doing the smart thing. I’m saving. I’m saving for my future and doing what I need to do. So, I’ve backed up a little off of that and given myself more grace, because I am making good choices as far as, you know, what the future holds and what I can be doing with investing and retirement and hopefully paying off my home.

29:18 Emily: That’s fantastic to hear. I’m so glad that you’re, you know, on that journey with your money mindset, right? Away from hustling, because it is interesting, like you had to hustle for a long time. It was necessary for survival. It was necessary to meet the sort of just baseline financial goals of getting debt paid off. But now, you know, presumably you’re making a much better income from your primary job. Now you can switch to thinking about investing and how money can be generated and come from work and income you’ve earned in the past and not completely from income you’re earning in the day to day. And eventually of course, when you reach financial independence, when you’re retired or whatever, all of your income will be coming from those, you know, previous investments. So I just love to hear that. Just hearing that transition point is really interesting.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

30:08 Emily: Well, this has been absolutely fascinating, Jeanelle, and thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast. I always end my interviews by asking my guests, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we have touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely different.

30:26 Jeanelle: So, this advice I would give especially for folks who are just finishing their PhD, and are not sure, you know, what comes next, or, you know, maybe they have these residual effects or trauma, I would say, and feel like I did. Like you always need to catch up. I felt like all my friends around me were getting promotions. They were buying houses, they had retirement, you know, saved and I felt really behind and it made me feel bad. So I would say, you know, go at your own pace. Everyone is at a different point in their life and you will get there as long as you come up with a plan. And I would say like the most powerful plan you can have is your budget and really reckoning with what you have and what you can do with that.

31:20 Jeanelle: So you know, when I first started, I wasn’t getting a lot of money, but I still made it work within my budget. I lived within my means and what I could do. And now that I have a little bit more flexibility because your income usually goes up a lot more from a grad student stipend, is just to know, just because it’s gone up more, prioritize what you really want for kind of like those future financial goals that you might have. Like think about those things first. Because a lot of times those other things are just temporary satisfaction that we’re trying to get, and it’s okay to do once in a while. You know, it’s nice to splurge once in a while. So I would say, you know, don’t compare yourself. Give yourself some patience with where you’re progressing.

32:13 Jeanelle: And definitely, you know, create that budget. Know that it’s not probably going to work for the first few months. You’re going to have to take some time to get it right. And then once you’re in a place where you feel really good, if you’re like me and you don’t know much, I recommend talking to a financial advisor and expert who can lead you and teach you in a way of, you know, things like investing and what will suit you, and what are good goals to think about. Because if you’ve never learned it, you’ll just never know. And there could be something that unlocks for you. So, that’s what I would say is just, you know, keep going, don’t compare yourself and, you know, go at your own pace. Everyone’s running their own race.

33:02 Emily: I love those thoughts. I actually want to ask you a bonus follow-up question, which is, I really like the advice actually of speaking with a financial advisor once you’re ready for that. I actually am working with a financial advisor myself for the first time in 2021. And it’s actually been really good because I wouldn’t say that I’ve gained necessarily any new knowledge, because of course I am very well informed in this area. Although there have been a few, like really, really detailed questions we’ve asked. What’s been important for me is the behavior change of involving someone else in our picture, asking for advice, and then being like, Ooh, I need to act on this else. Or else this person’s going to follow up with me and I’m going to have to say I didn’t do it. So like, that’s what really, really ultimately matters in finances.

Personal Finance Resources

33:47 Emily: It doesn’t matter actually how much you know, it matters what you do, the action that you take. So like, I love that even though you’re saying, I didn’t know much, I don’t know much. As you’ve learned, you’ve done what you’ve learned about. And that’s really the most important thing, right? Is to just take the action. So, anyway, I love that advice, but the question that I wanted to ask you was, prior maybe to starting to meet with this financial advisor, did you have any personal finance resources, like media, like other podcasts or like books or anything that you consumed that helped you along that way?

34:18 Jeanelle: Yes, you know, one, one of the most helpful books for me was The Total Money Makeover. I don’t know if anyone has heard of Dave Ramsey. I won’t get into like his political stance and some of those problematic things, but I will say the baby step plan that he has is very solid. It’s, you know, I’ve tried to read other books, like How to, I think it’s How to be rich or something like that. And it talks a lot about investing and it just really went over my head. And I liked that it was like, step one, do this step two, do this step three, do this. So that really helped me, at least, and my husband just feel like we could follow a plan that we understood. It was very straightforward. And then later on, when it got to the more complex stuff, like the financial advising and investing, that’s when we were like, okay, let’s get some expertise.

35:13 Jeanelle: There’s no shame. I will say culturally, money just wasn’t talked about in my family. And I wish it was because I feel like that transparency would’ve helped me instead of seeing it in different ways. But you know, it’s nice, like you said, to have that outside person who can give you actionable things that you can do that are really making an impact on your finances and helping you grow you know, to have hopefully a good nest egg. So that was the biggest resource is probably The Total Money Makeover and then the financial advisor. And we have a San Diego financial literacy clinic. I learned about this through working with the county. And so I actually met with a pro bono financial advisor several years ago for that as well. So there are great resources like that too, where you can just talk to someone and have this neutral person listen to you and give you advice.

36:20 Emily: That’s a great, great tip. And it’s great that you found that resource that you knew about through your work. I would say also, you know, of course, anyone listening check for similar resources in your area. Check with like a local credit union. If they don’t offer something like that themselves, they probably know where to refer you for that kind of help. And I’m sure, if you’re below a certain income level, you know, they’ll have some kind of like pro bono sliding scale sort of thing going on. So thank you so much that. Jeanelle, it’s been great catching up with you and thank you again so much for giving this interview.

36:51 Jeanelle: Thank you!

Outtro

36:57 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 3 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and increasing cash flow. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC.

How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School

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In this episode, Emily shares the first section of a written guide she recently added to the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, titled How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School. FIRE stands for Financial Independence / Retire Early, and it’s a big movement among personal finance enthusiasts right now. At first, Emily didn’t believe graduate school and the pursuit of FIRE were compatible, but the many interviewees she’s had on the podcast who are pursuing a PhD and FIRE simultaneously changed her mind. In the introduction, Emily introduces FIRE and the general ways people pursue it and lists the four biggest levers a graduate student could pull to pursue FIRE right away.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Introduction

Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts.

This is Season 10, Episode 19, and today I’m going to read to you the introduction to a written guide that I recently added to the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, titled How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School. FIRE stands for Financial Independence / Retire Early, and it’s a big movement among personal finance enthusiasts right now. I have to admit that at first I didn’t think graduate school and the pursuit of FIRE were compatible, but the many interviewees I’ve had on the podcast who are pursuing a PhD and FIRE simultaneously changed my mind. In the introduction, which I’ll read to you momentarily, I introduce FIRE and the general ways people pursue it and list what I think are the four biggest levers a graduate student could pull to pursue FIRE right away.

If you are pursuing FIRE or are interested in it, I’d love to hear from you. Please join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community right now, today. Once you’re a member, you can do two things:

  1. Read the rest of the guide, which goes into detail about all the financial opportunities graduate students have to pursue FIRE, from increasing their incomes to building assets to mindset work.
  2. Join me and other Community members for a special live discussion and Q&A call on Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:30 PM Pacific Time. We have live calls like this once per month, and this month’s is dedicated to the topic of FIRE. I really want to hear from you. I’m going to continue to expand and edit the guide based on the ideas and experiences of Community members and future podcast interviewees.

In case you’re listening to this after December 2021, no worries. You can still join the Community to read the current incarnation of the guide and chat with us about FIRE in the Forum or the next upcoming monthly call. Again, go to PFforPhDs.community to sign up!

One last note. I reference a bunch of previous podcast episodes in the introduction. All these episodes are linked in the show notes, which you can find linked from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/.
Without further ado, here’s the introduction to How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School.

How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School: Introduction

I was in graduate school when the current incarnation of the FIRE movement started picking up steam. At that time, the acronym FIRE (financial independence / retire early) was not yet in use, and people focused mostly on the “retire early” goal—not retiring at 55 like some Boomers had, but retiring by 30 or 40. Pete Adeney of Mr. Money Mustache was one of the leading voices, having achieved early retirement at age 30 by combining a well-paid engineering career with rigorous frugality.

At first, I found the idea of early retirement to be largely unappealing. The chief reason was that graduate school was supposed to be the foundation for a long, meaningful, fulfilling career… Why would I plan to retire early from that already? Why would any PhD (a group I was growing more interested in creating content for)? I couldn’t get behind that idea.

Thankfully, my disinterest in FIRE in my mid-20s didn’t diminish my passion for personal finance writ large, and I still invested, practiced frugality, and attempted to increase my income to the best of my ability and knowledge at that time.

My view is different now, a decade later. While I still don’t consider myself part of the FIRE movement, I do see its appeal, even for PhDs.

1) I’ve changed: I’m ten years older. I have children now. I’ve switched careers, and I’m a business owner. I earn and spend much more money than I did during graduate school. My and my husband’s parents have retired (at a traditional age). I better understand why having the financial ability to downshift, change, or stop active work before age 70 is attractive.

2) The FIRE movement has changed: There’s a greater emphasis on financial independence rather than early retirement. The featured voices are more diverse. There are numerous well-documented paths to achieve FIRE, not just the earn-a-lot/spend-very-little model from Mr. Money Mustache.

3) Most importantly, I’ve met numerous graduate students and PhDs who do identify as part of the FIRE movement. They don’t see a contradiction between pursuing a PhD-type career and financial independence simultaneously. I’ve learned from their philosophies and methods. The Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast interviews I’ve published that touch on FIRE have been with:

In this guide, I won’t attempt to convince you to pursue FIRE—because I haven’t fully convinced myself. I will show you how you can pursue FIRE as a funded PhD student. We will explore multiple potential strategies, and I am confident that you will be able to adopt at least one of them.

How you pursue FIRE during graduate school will look different than how you pursue it when you have a post-PhD “Real Job,” but you can get started right here, right now.

What is FIRE?

FIRE stands for Financial Independence / Retire Early. FIRE is a movement within the broader personal finance community that has gained popularity in the last decade, roughly coinciding with the long bull stock market post-Great Recession.

Being financially independent (FI) means that you no longer need to work for an income to maintain your lifestyle and that you expect to maintain this status until your death. Once you cease working to generate an income, you have retired. The early part of the name refers to achieving financial independence earlier than the typical retirement age of 70-ish. Some superstars in this movement reach FI by age 30, while others set their sights on age 40 or 50.

Broadly speaking, there are three common ways to achieve FIRE, and some people use a combination:

  1. Purchase a portfolio of paper assets (e.g., stocks and bonds) from which you can draw an income
  2. Buy or build an asset or set of assets that generate income, such as a business or real estate portfolio
  3. Qualify for a pension, e.g., after 20 years of military service

I’m going to omit the option of a pension from the remainder of my discussion because 1) it’s not common for people in my audience to qualify for one, 2) within the FIRE movement it’s typically combined with another strategy as well, and 3) there are other good resources on pensions specifically.

How you determine that you have achieved FI is beyond the scope of this guide. Our focus is on the start of the journey, the pursuit of FI, and how to do it during graduate school.

However, to give you a rough idea, to know that you are FI you must have a good grasp on how much money it takes to sustain your lifestyle, i.e., how much you spend yearly. For example, FatFIRE is considered a yearly spend of $100,000 or more, while LeanFIRE is considered a yearly spend of $40,000 or less.

If you have a pension or own a business or real estate portfolio, the amount of income it generates should be more than the amount of money you spend for you to be considered FI. With respect to paper assets, a popular rule of thumb based on the Trinity Study is to have a portfolio of twenty-five times your yearly spend. For example, if you want to live on $40,000 per year indefinitely, adjusted for inflation, your portfolio should be valued at $1,000,000 or more.

How do you pursue FIRE?

How exactly you will pursue FIRE depends a great deal on your personality, career goals, and lifestyle desires.

At some point, you must create or purchase assets of the type I listed above. While you can start on that during grad school, creating or purchasing assets does not have to be the first step on your journey to FIRE, depending on the rest of your financial picture. If you are in debt, your first step may be to repay debt. If you have no savings or little savings, your first step might be to save up cash. If your income is low or unreliable, your first step might be to increase your income so that you don’t rack up any debt.

I recommend following the eight-step Financial Framework that I developed for use by graduate students and early-career PhDs. It will help you decide which financial goal is best to pursue at any given stage in your financial journey. You can find this Framework detailed in several resources inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, including the ebook The Wealthy PhD and the recorded workshop Optimized Financial Goal-Setting for Early-Career PhDs.

In brief, the Framework Steps are to:

  1. Save a starter emergency fund
  2. Pay off all high-priority debt
  3. Prepare for irregular expenses
  4. Invest a minimum percent of your income for retirement
  5. Pay off all medium-priority debt
  6. Save a full emergency fund
  7. Invest more for retirement and/or other goals
  8. Pay off all low-priority debt

The Framework is fully compatible with the pursuit of FIRE, though a FIRE adherent will likely move through the Framework steps faster than the average and may pursue additional financial goals such as purchasing real estate.

There are two less tangible but no less important ways that I recommend that you pursue FIRE starting in graduate school, both of which involve your own development.

1) Your career. I am confident that one of the major reasons you entered graduate school was for career development. Using your time in graduate school to set yourself up for a fulfilling and well-paying career is vital. Do not lose sight of this goal in your pursuit of FIRE. Your future, higher income is going to play a major role in how fast you will achieve FIRE. On the flip side, if a PhD no longer figures into your vision for your future, do not stay in graduate school; jump ship for a higher-paying job.

2) Your mindset and systems. To achieve FIRE, you must have a certain kind of money mindset and well-established systems and habits. You will continually develop these in your pursuit of FIRE. Even if you are unable to increase your net worth much during graduate school, pursuing your career and mindset development now is worthwhile to pay major dividends later.

What makes grad school different?

Your pursuit of FIRE during grad school is likely to look quite different from how you would pursue it if you were not in grad school or how you will pursue it post-PhD.

Generally speaking, PhD students accept a low stipend in exchange for training that—we hope—will qualify them for more lucrative jobs later on. They could be making more money right now in another job, but graduate school is a long-term career investment. Blanket personal finance advice to switch jobs or negotiate to increase your income does not apply well for graduate students (although there are many ways to increase your income, which I cover later in this guide).

In non-pandemic times, most graduate students are required to live in close proximity to the university they attend, although some may be permitted to finish their degrees remotely. For the former group, geographic arbitrage is not available. Geographic arbitrage, a common FIRE strategy, is when you choose to live in a low cost-of-living area while maintaining an income more suited for a high cost-of-living area so that you can boost your savings rate.

Finally, graduate school is a major time commitment. Few PhD students consistently cap their work weeks at 40 hours. You may have less time for outside income-increasing or asset-creating pursuits during grad school in comparison with other times of life.

My Personal Favorite Steps

In the second half of this guide, I will explore numerous possible strategies to further your FIRE journey during grad school. Some of them are what I call “big levers,” which are strategies that are virtually guaranteed to greatly increase your available cash flow and are possibly unusual choices for a graduate student. This increased cash flow can then be saved, invested, or used to repay debt. In your pursuit of FIRE during grad school, I think it will be very helpful for your psychology to pull one of these big levers if you’re able to. It will be clear to you that you are serious about your commitment to FIRE, which will help keep you on the path.

I want to give you a quick preview here as to what I believe these big levers are before we go through all the strategies in much more detail.

Big lever #1 is to choose a graduate program that provides a 12-month stipend that is well above the local living wage. If you’re a prospective graduate student, simply don’t consider any offers that fail to meet that bar, even if they are good fit for you otherwise.

Big lever #2 is to commit to applying for awards like it’s your part-time job—everything from multi-year, full-stipend fellowships to small poster competitions.

Big lever #3 is to radically reduce or eliminate your housing expense. Two potential ways you can achieve that are to house hack or serve as a resident advisor.

Big lever #4 is to start a side business with the potential, at least, to pay you a high hourly rate. You’re most likely to generate a high pay rate by employing the skills and knowledge you’ve developed during your graduate program.

If you can’t pull one of these big levers in your remaining time in graduate school, that’s fine. Put in place one of the smaller strategies from this guide, and if possible keep stacking those up throughout your time in graduate school.

Personally, even though I hadn’t committed to FIRE when I was a graduate student, I was putting a lot of effort into my personal finances. I didn’t know about these big levers or most of the other strategies I’ll discuss in the second half of the guide. I pulled just one big lever by accident, which was to attend Duke for my PhD in biomedical engineering. I wasn’t at all considering the stipend when I made that decision, but I realized later what a boon it was. My stipend was approximately 30% higher than the local living wage, which meant that with careful budgeting I could sustain a decent savings rate.

Over our seven years of PhD training, my husband and I increased our combined net worth by over $100,000. You can hear all about how we did that in Season 1 Episode 1 of the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. Now, seven years removed from when we defended, I can clearly see that the time value of money continues to honor those early efforts, even though we earn and save much more post-PhD. That money forms the bedrock of our current financial security.

By applying just one of the big levers or a few of the smaller strategies in this guide, I firmly believe that you also will accelerate your progress toward FIRE, even as a graduate student. Many of the people I’ve interviewed on the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast have far exceeded my own degree of financial success using the strategies I’ll share with you next.

Conclusion

It’s Emily again! That is the end of the introduction to How to Pursue FIRE in Graduate School. If you liked what you heard and want to read about all the strategies and join the live call on Wednesday, December 15, 2021, please join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Outro

Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode!

pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved!

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow:

  1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use.
  2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website.
  3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes.
  4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs.

See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps!

The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC.

Podcast editing and show notes creation by me, Emily Roberts.