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This Postdoc’s Financial Turnaround Story and Attitude Toward Money Are Incredibly Inspiring

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Indira Turney, a postdoc at Columbia Medical Center. Indira tells the story of how her finances changed over the course of her PhD at Penn State. Indira started graduate school with approximately $60,000 of debt in a variety of forms and no idea where her income had been going. She resolved to turn things around, and by the time she graduated she was debt-free with cash savings and investments in a Roth IRA. Indira details the strategies she used to increase her income and minimize her expenses. Her methods are both creative and highly accessible for other graduate students.

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PhD financial turnaround

Teaser

00:00 Indira: And I think that’s when I realized, wait, my bills are going to be the same for the next five years and we’re having all this money coming in, I could pay off my loans. I don’t have to wait until the end. I think that’s what kind of started opening up my eyes.

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode ten and today my guest is Dr. Indira Turney, a postdoc at Columbia Medical Center. Indira tells the incredibly impressive story of how her finances changed over the course of her PhD at Penn State. Indira started graduate school with approximately $60,000 of debt in a variety of forms and no idea where her income from the previous year had gone. On top of that, she realized that she was taking an income cut to approximately $20,000 per year for her stipend. She resolved to turn things around and by the time she graduated, she was debt free with cash savings and investments in a Roth IRA. Indira details the multiple strategies she used to increase her income and minimize her expenses. Her methods are both creative and highly accessible for other graduate students and we could all do well to adopt her attitude toward income and finances. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Indira Turney.

01:25 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me today on the podcast, Dr. Indira Turney, and she has a really remarkable financial story to tell from her time in graduate school and since. Indira, will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

01:38 Indira: Sure. I’m happy to be here and thanks again for inviting me on the podcast. I’m currently a postdoc at Columbia Medical Center in New York City and I graduated from the University of the Virgin Islands with my bachelor’s. I went on to do a pre-doctoral program at the University of Pittsburgh for about a year and then I went on to earn my PhD in cognitive neuroscience at Penn State University in Pennsylvania. Now, I just started a postdoc at Columbia Medical Center, where my research essentially focuses on using molecular and functional neuro-imaging to identify socio-cultural sources and neuro-correlates of Alzheimer’s disease across diverse racially and ethnic population.

02:25 Emily: That is awesome. Thank you for telling us about that.

Indira’s Debt-Free Journey

Emily: So financially, where were you at the start of graduate school?

02:34 Indira: When I started grad school, I had about $60,000 in debt at the time. I never really calculated it specifically, but I had a car loan, I had about $20,000 student loans, and I had some health insurance stuff that I hadn’t paid off fully and some credit card bills. So in total about $60,000.

02:56 Emily: Yeah, that’s a pretty heavy debt load for grad student, and especially because with all student loans, of course you’d be able to defer that and not pay attention to it. But with other types of debt you still have to address it as a graduate student. What was your income during graduate school?

03:12 Indira: My first year I had the regular base pay of about, I think it’s about $1950 on a monthly basis, so about $19,000 a year. That’s what we got to cover stipend and then they paid tuition as well, as a teaching assistant. That’s what I had the first year and then after that with applying to other things, I essentially increased that based on how much funding I got that year.

03:37 Emily: So can you give me like a range for your subsequent years in graduate school of what you were earning?

03:43 Indira: As far as grad school funding, for years two, three and four, I got an NSF grant, so I went from $19,000 to $35,000, so that was a huge increase. My last year I got off of NSF because it was only three years and I went back to the regular base pay of $1950, but because I was an NSF for three years, I also kind of negotiated having a little extra, so I had about $23,000 or $22,000 a year. In addition to that, I also had other grants and funding, which probably, at max, was about $25,000 a year from graduate funds, as far as stipend goes, in my last year. So anywhere between $19,000 to $36,000

04:32 Emily: And it was just five years during your PhD, is that right?

04:35 Indira: Six years, actually, six years. Right. So the last two years.

04:39 Emily: And you said a word that I love to hear, which is negotiate. Can you tell me really briefly about negotiating?

04:46 Indira: Sure. So technically the program is five years and if you’re more than that, they tend to bump you down as a way to push you out. I essentially was like, “No, I’m not going to get paid $18,000 a year. I saved you guys a whole lot of money for three years by getting NSF funding.” And even while I had NSF funding, I technically taught a class, which I wasn’t necessarily supposed to. So I was just like, “I did a lot for the university, especially for this department. You’re not going to bump me down. If anything, you guys should increase my stipend.” Not in those words of course. I think there’s always room for asking for more money because there’s always money there, because technically they gave you, in your letter in the beginning, this is your five-year funding. There is money there. If you told me there was money there for five years, I deferred for three years, then there’s money there, so don’t tell me I used up your money for six years. I think there’s always ways to negotiate and tell them why this is what you’re worth and you are always worth more than what they give you. And if you ask there’s usually a lot of room for extra money.

05:51 Emily: I know you just said you didn’t use those words, but I really love the words that you just said and I’m so pleased to hear them. I think a lot of people need to hear them, about your value, and especially if you win outside funding. Yeah, of course they should extend your tenure and increase your pay. But I was just very interested in hearing that you actually did that negotiating after the NSF concluded. And so there’s still room when the money is yet to come in, even after the money has already passed through the system. In your opinion and in your example, the money was still there, you said the right words, you unlocked the money. In those last two years, were you doing like an RA or did you have to TA or where did the money from?

06:31 Indira: I did a mixture of both, so I TA-ed, where I taught a class because after your master’s you can actually teach versus just correcting papers, I guess. Then I also did an RA fellowship with my lab advisor where essentially I just did the work in the lab and got paid for it, instead of teaching a class where I’m taking away time from my research. I also got another award that bought off some time where I didn’t have to TA that year, even though I was getting funded by the university, I still didn’t have to TA that semester. So I really only taught two years out of the six years and on-and-off half a semester here and there.

07:09 Emily: Gotcha. Okay, so start of graduate school, things are actually not looking too great for you to start of graduate school. Approximately $60,000 worth of debt, not a very generous stipend, although probably okay, given where you were living. But then second year and following, buku bucks, at least for the time you were on the NSF. What’s the snapshot of your financial picture upon your defense, when you finished graduate school?

07:35 Indira: Upon defending, I was completely out of debt. I had $0 in debt. I tried to pay off everything, so my goal was pay it off in five years and I paid it off in four and a half, so my last year I had absolutely no debt at all. My car was paid off. I had paid all my student loans, except for maybe like $1,000, that I think is lurking somewhere from undergrad because the $20,000 I had was for my first year of grad school because I had moved away from the Caribbean to the United States, and so I felt like I needed the extra money, but I had about $2,000 in undergrad, which those are deferred because I’m still taking in school. But your grad school loans, they accrue interest while you’re in grad school, so I was determined to pay off that before I graduated. So on graduation day, defense day, I was completely out of debt, which was amazing.

08:22 Emily: So just so I’m clear about where the student loans came from, that was from the year that you were in school prior to starting your PhD? Is that right?

08:31 Indira: No, so the year prior to starting my PhD, I was fully funded. I think we got like $2,500 a month for a year or eight months pre-doctoral program. Then, right before I started grad school, I applied for financial aid, for a student loan until the start of grad school. I had a $20,000, I don’t know what it’s called, but essentially it was a loan from the federal government and it accrued interest every month. once you started grad school.

08:59 Emily: Okay. So you had taken out a $20,000 student loan, but you also had the loan money. You received it at that time, at the beginning of graduate school?

09:09 Indira: Yes, essentially they give you the loan from the beginning, and then you decide, which was scary because I’m like, I have $20,000, what am I going to do with it? But the point was for moving expenses and living other things that I didn’t account for moving from the Caribbean. So I had that, and from day one, I guess it started accruing interests, so when you get that first bill where it’s accrued about $50 an interest, because I think it was like a 6% or 7% interest rate and I’m just like what. And I didn’t even know that at the time when I applied for it because I assumed I’m in school and I’m not gonna be paying off or getting interest while I was in school, but not for grad student loans, apparently.

09:50 Emily: Yes. Okay. I’m glad to get a little bit more clarity on that. So you took out the loan at the beginning of graduate school, which was un-subsidized, as graduate student loans are, because of the expenses that you had just accrued immediately before that in the moving expenses and so forth. And also, I’m assuming you’re looking at your stipend thinking, “how am I gonna do this?” Okay, so you had that loan right at the beginning, but then by the end of it, you had paid that loan back entirely, as well as the rest of your debt. Anything else going on in your financial picture by the time you finished graduate school?

10:22 Indira: So at that time, about maybe by third year of grad school, I had started saving, just regular savings in a bank, and then I also started investing in a Roth IRA where I ranged from putting in monthly about a $100 when I started and then maybe I upped it to about $300 a month. So I had a Roth IRA and regular savings at the end of grad school and zero debt, which was amazing.

Making the Changes to be Debt Free

10:47 Emily: Yeah, that sounds fantastic. And what a turnaround story. So what were you doing in between point A and point B to have this vast change?

10:57 Indira: Right. So essentially I applied to everything, including large grants up to $40,000, $50,000, or if you account for stipend, some of them were $80-$100,000, to things that were even just $500 for anything, whether it’s for research or…What I did was, so for example, if you go to a conference and they give you per diem, where you have about maybe $90 a day for breakfast, lunch and dinner, I don’t need $90 a day for food. I don’t normally spend that anyways. And so yes, I can’t meal prep while I’m on a conference, but I usually don’t have breakfast anyways. I’m not gonna waste $30 on breakfast. So when I get back from the conference, especially say a week long conference, I now probably save at least $30 for five days from a conference that I didn’t have breakfast. And most conferences probably give you coffee and bagels in the beginning anyways. Mmost times I probably spent most of the money on dinner because that’s when you network with colleagues in the field. So $30 breakfast and maybe I’m off $50 for lunch, so $70 for five days that I would save. I think that was one of the easiest ways in the beginning that I learned to save money from money that I got legally — legally I’m saving this, but I’m not, you know, forging signatures to say I didn’t have lunch or something like that. Not signatures, receipts, sorry. Because with per diem they’re not asking for receipts.

12:15 Indira: Then the other method. I meal prepped, so I didn’t have to buy lunch, because as grad students I think it’s so easy to run to the cafe and get something there, long nights you get food there, but I generally meal prepped, most times, on Sundays. I have these Mason jar salads that towards the end of grad school I learned was amazing, and so I would prep five and that’s lunch for the week. I have no excuse to buy lunch, especially since a salad costs like $10, when I probably spend $15 for five salads a week. I had fun, I hung out with friends, but I always planned it. Not the specific event, but plan for this month, like I’m spending $120 on fun and by the halfway of the month I’ll check in, where are you in that $120. Because I feel like once I’m out I’m like, “Well, I’m out, I’m going to have fun, I’m not going to make finances keep me down.” And so I just spend whatever versus if I know I’m within my budget, it doesn’t matter. But if I didn’t plan for it, then I overspend.

13:15 Indira: I also did a lot of side hustles, in addition to funding and federal money, where I did hair braiding, dog and cat sitting. House-sitting was my first summer when I moved. I moved about two months early before grad school and instead of paying for rent, I essentially house-sat for someone and they had a cat, so house and cat stuff for that two months. I also did Airbnb with my apartment. In PA, it was a lot cheaper than New York, so I was able to have a two bedroom apartment. On football weekends — Penn state is a big football school — so from Friday evening, someone would come and leave early Sunday morning and in just one weekend I can make anywhere between $600 to $800. I would just go bunk on someone’s couch and leave my entire apartment for someone, because even within the town, they knew football weekend was big, so hotels would be about $400 a night. Instead of paying $400 a night for a bedroom, they’d easily pay $400 a night for a whole house. I did football weekends about maybe five or six times a semester in the fall, and that would essentially be my roommate. I had a two bedroom, but I didn’t need a roommate. Then on graduation weekends, which was in May or December, but usually the May graduation weekend hotel rooms would be like $800 and $900 as well, so I would rent out my entire home again. On graduation weekends, I think I did it twice, and one time I got about $1,500 for just the weekend. I don’t remember the second time how much it was, but it was around that. So side hustles, applying for everything, and also meal prepping, saved me a lot, and planning my expenses for even fun.

Balancing Different Incomes During Grad School

14:56 Emily: Yeah, that was an amazing amount of information and amazing overview of what you were up to. I want to follow up on a lot of that stuff, but just before we get there — so when you started graduate school and you had this lower stipend level and then you know, in the next year the NSF stipend is so much higher than what you were making, so you have this vast income increase — did you change anything in between those two years? Were you living in the same place, for example?

15:28 Indira: Between the first year of grad school and second?

15:31 Emily: Yeah. I’m kind of wondering if you sort of set up your life in the first year to live off of that $20,000 per year-ish, but then you had that vast income increase — did you increase your lifestyle or did you keep your lifestyle at that original level?

15:45 Indira: No, so at the very beginning I was making about $1,800 a month and so I lived in a one bedroom, but technically it was actually more expensive than the two bedroom I moved into cause it was like a apartment complex versus someone who had a home and they were like, yeah, you can live here kind of thing from Craigslist. Um, and so I didn’t intentionally necessarily go cheaper. So that was really the only thing that changed. I probably, I think I was being like $975 for a one bedroom and that I paid like $950 for two bedrooms. So it wasn’t necessarily a big change. I still had a car so that all of those things remained the same. Um, side hustling if anything. I started Airbnb my second year. So even after I got NSF, it was when I started doing it, because I was like my biggest paying side hustle.

16:29 Indira: Lifestyle-wise most of the things stayed the same which is, I think one of the beauties of grad school. Your bills, your lifestyle for the most part stays the same for at least five years. I think for things like that, I started realizing, and I did a workshop from the Black Graduate Students Association and they had something about financial literacy. I think that’s when I realized, wait, my bills are going to be the same for the next five years and we’re having all this money coming in. I could pay off my loans, I don’t have to wait until the end. I think that’s what kind of like started opening up my eyes. But as far as lifestyle, no. Those things pretty much stayed the same for five years. Aside from like emergencies and stuff like that and just like maybe a little more traveling towards the end. But the basic lifestyle remain the same.

17:14 Emily: Okay. So really what happened is you had your lifestyle set at that original stipend level that you were receiving, and then your income vastly increased both from the NSF and from your side hustling. Were you just like crazy throwing everything at debt? Like that was a huge goal that you had. What were you doing with that excess?

17:34 Indira: In the beginning it was more so I never used to save. Like I said, the year before I started grad school, I did that pre-doc program and we got about $2,500 a month and we didn’t have to pay for housing because all of that was paid for. I don’t know where that $2,500 went for eight months. So when I started grad school and I realized I’m getting paid less than I was going to get out of the pre-doctoral level, I was like, “Wait, this makes no sense. Where did that money go? I need to learn to start saving.” I started just putting that extra money in savings, but then realizing of course I’m not getting a big return. All right, I know those debts, those bills keep coming back. And I’m like, “Why am I just letting this accrue interest for the loans?” So then I started paying just the interest rates and stuff like that.

Indira: I think I just didn’t want to be in debt and I realized that I have all this money coming in and grad school and the lifestyle that’s going to be the same for five years. I started realizing that I was blessed to not have $100,000 in just undergrad debt alone because a lot of my friends did. They just have that sitting there because it’s not accruing interest and that’s fine, but I realized too, a lot of them were taking that money and living a more luxurious lifestyle now in grad school because we’re getting all this money and we could live a pretty decent lifestyle depending on how much money you get coming in. But I’m like, “why not just pay off the other debt?” because then guess what, when you’re done with grad school, the debt is still there waiting for you versus live a balanced lifestyle and paying off your debt. I think it wasn’t like a big, “I have to pay off $60,000 debt”, I was just more aware of where my money was going and one thing after another just led me to investing and putting it into different things.

19:18 Emily: Yeah, I’m really glad that you had that sort of realization. Yyou had this one year in the pre-doc program where you are making a pretty okay amount of money for a stipend, but where was it going? And you sort of had a re-evaluation point, like “Okay, I don’t know what just happened to all of that. I obviously have to change some things within like my financial management going forward.” Also, it sounds like you also went to some financial literacy events or a course or something and that also helped you think differently about your money during graduate school and realizing that you had the ability to work on it right then and didn’t all have to wait for the end.

19:57 Indira: Right. Because unfortunately I think a lot of us are just not taught about how to use the money we get. And so then when you get it naturally, we’re like, “Oh my God, I have all these extra thousand dollar a month. Maybe I’ll go somewhere and travel, do something.” Which is nice, but I mean I think that workshop from the Black Graduate Student Association definitely opened up my eyes.

20:13 Emily: Yeah. Sounds super valuable. I’ll make a shameless plug for my own services here. Probably not exactly the same as what you experienced, but I do offer seminars and webinars for universities, specifically for grad students and postdocs on, I don’t call it financial literacy, but I call it personal finance. So anyone out there who’s looking for that kind of programming that can be incredibly life changing, please think of me. My website, pfforphds.com/speaking, is where you can go to find out more about that.

20:38 Emily: Back to Indira’s story. Okay, so we’ve seen the beginning of the end point. You’ve talked about a few of the strategies that got you from point A to point B. I want to dive into each of them a little bit more. So as you said, you were applying for everything to increase your income, including, I mean obviously you won the NSF, you’ve already mentioned that. That’s awesome. Probably the biggest difference of any of anything that happened. You were talking about how you were using per diems from conferences, but just being frugal right around your food spending. So instead of spending 100% of what you are given, that really is a little bit of like windfall money. You come home from a conference, you realize, “Okay, I was receiving X amount of money, only spent whatever it was, 50% of that.” Hey, a little bit of extra money. That’s something that I think having a plan for, that’s what I call windfall money, unexpected money that enters into your pocket somehow. Did you just throw that towards whatever your current goal was? Savings or debt? How did you think of it?

21:41 Indira: Yeah, so in the beginning, whatever extra I had, I just had it in savings and then I realized my savings was looking really nice and I was like, “well, what am I doing with this money?” I don’t have kids. I send money home to family and stuff in the Caribbean, but aside from that, I didn’t have a need to have a big cushion. Especially, like I said again, I know I’m not going to get laid off of grad school, so I didn’t have to have this big cushion in case I lost my job. I was like, “what am I gonna do with that?” In the beginning, I put everything into savings and then I started doing the Roth IRA because I’m like, “Oh well maybe I can get a bigger return there.” Now, as a postdoc, I’m doing some regular investments as well. But at that time it was just a Roth IRA and savings. I started calculating, if I have this in my Roth and this in my savings, where there’s still a “life happens” emergency fund in my savings, the extra I put towards starting to pay off my student loans. I think at one point I just put a lump sum on my car payments. That way, in case something happened, I just didn’t have like the feeling of every month I had to pay a certain amount and if I didn’t then all of a sudden it’s a problem, so I just put a lump sum down. Technically, I was always about three months ahead of my actual payments due. So starting with savings, then the Roth, and then started paying off the student loan and the car loans and the other health insurance and credit card debt. It’s like the highest interest rate and from there, just started working my way down. One thing I liked about what you said is that extra money. I had a monthly income, then I said this is what I’m spending and when I calculated my spending, I had fixed, flexible, where fixed is like the things that you need — there’s no ands, ifs or buts about it. And the flexible is like Netflix or eating out and stuff like that. Those were budgeted based on my $1,800 a month, and then when I had NSF, it was budgeted on my $3,500 a month and then all the extra staff, I never budgeted. Those just went into my savings and paying off debt. I never felt like I was using it and then extra stuff, that I used for extra fun.

Side Hustling as a Grad Student

23:55 Emily: I see. Yeah. Thanks for going into the that detail about your budgeting. You also mentioned that you had tried out several side hustles and I wanted to know because a couple of them are pretty accessible. So the first one that you mentioned was, house-sitting or cat-sitting, which basically meant that you didn’t have to pay rent for two months and this is like sort of a holy grail of things to pursue. How did you land that gig?

24:23 Indira: The house-sitting the first semester — I told my advisor that I wanted to move early and do an RAship, or research assistantship, so she paid me what they would pay a regular RA. I also asked her if there was anyone — on the faculty list there’s always people going on sabbatical or going away for the summer, for a month or during the summer. I know a lot of faculty members, from being at Pittsburgh, I know a lot of them were going away for about at least a month and they were looking for places or people to house-sit, or cat-sit if they had pets. So I was like, “Oh I wonder if people at Penn State do the same thing.” And lo and behold, they did. There happened to be a faculty member who was going away for the two months that I needed a place before grad school. I asked my advisor, she gave me a few different people who were looking, I reached out to them, told them I was moving, going to be a very responsible grad student and I would love to take — at the time, I didn’t have a dog so I didn’t have any recommendations about being a pet-sitter. But I mean, it was a cat, so I think it was easier to sit for a cat. I just applied and reached out to people and interviewed through Skype and stuff like that and then moved all my stuff into their basement, until I was ready to move into an apartment for grad school.

25:31 Emily: Thank you so much for sharing that because, as I said, I think it’s very accessible. It’s maybe not something you’d do 100% of the time and obviously later on you rented an apartment, you didn’t end up doing that 100% of the time. But for a bridge kind of period of time, it’s really perfect. And again, for the summer, as you said, faculty do travel quite a bit. Even someone going on sabbatical or whatever, could be longer than that. What you did is so easy to do. You asked your advisor, you got some recommendations, you followed up with those people, you land —

26:04 Indira: Sometimes our advisors may not know, but once I was in grad school, I also knew what people who needed house-sitters. I think even asking just the grad students, “do you know any faculty member who needs someone,” is another way to go about it, especially again, even sabbatical. I never did it, but for sabbatical, if someone’s going away for a year, that’s a year you can save in rent. I know one person who did that, so there’s definitely ways to save for rent.

26:27 Emily: You know someone who has sat for a year, like nine months?

26:31 Indira: Yeah, it was a little tricky. She house-sat for about four months. It was half a year, so it was just a semester, and she just stayed at their house. She still had her apartment, because she had a partner and he had to stay there and whatnot, but assuming she didn’t have a partner, that would’ve been saving rent for an entire three, four months. I know other faculty members who leave for six, eight months or usually two semesters I guess, and if they have a pet, that’s usually the key thing, where they need someone to stay there because they can’t take the pet with them or they rather not. They usually just have students who can just come and check in, but because usually we have our things set, and especially in a small town, it was a little tougher because you can’t get a six month lease or three month lease, it’s always a twelve month lease and you don’t want to break your lease. But given that opportunity, depending on the state that you’re in, the city, you would be able to just stay at that person’s place.

27:32 Emily: Yeah. This is a great idea for anyone who’s again doing something like moving somewhere on a little bit of an off schedule from what the market is accustomed to. That’s amazing. What were the other side hustles that you mentioned?

27:46 Indira: I did some hair braiding, so doing people’s hair. I have locks now, but before that I did all kinds of hair, and all kinds of races too. Especially being in State College, a lot of the faculty members kids wanted braids, for example. I know a lot of friends for example, who braid hair, but it’s a little tricky to braid ethnic hair versus someone who’s white or Hispanic. I braided all kinds of things. I would do the kids’ hair and of course they love it and be excited and be like, “Oh my God, I want you to do it to my hair all the time,” so that was a client automatically, at least once a month. Then I also did Airbnb.

28:22 Emily: Right. Airbnb. Yeah. That was the other thing I wanted to follow up with you about. It’s very evident to me that you have this, I don’t know if I want to say entrepreneurial, but you just go after things. You just take opportunities as you see them, which is amazing. The Airbnb thing I think is so clever and it’s again, something that I haven’t heard of from a PhD before. I wanted to talk to you a little about it a little bit more. You were renting during this time, right? And was that kind of usage of your rental in accordance with the lease?

28:53 Indira: I know in New York there’s a lot more, I didn’t realize there were so many restrictions with Airbnb. I know there were some rental properties in State College that didn’t allow Airbnb. I was pretty up front with my neighbors. They were these old little couples, so they were pretty flexible. I told them, you know, I’ll have people coming into my, I didn’t say Airbnb because I didn’t think they knew what Airbnb was anyways, but I was like, I have people who will be visiting and they would stay here on the weekend, especially a football weekend, Friday to Sunday. I will make sure they don’t damage anything, everything will be my responsibility, although Airbnb I think reimburses up to like $1 million in damage, I never had that issue. I essentially just reaffirmed them that I will have strangers in my apartment for short periods of time and I will make sure that they don’t disturb the neighbors or anything like that, but if you have a problem let me know. But actually, I think they never lived close to me anyways and like I said, they were older couples, so maybe there was some leeway there. Even after I started doing Airbnb, I told all my friends about it cause I was like, there’s so much money to be made here. Some of them illegally did it and others, their apartment people were fine with doing it as well, for the most part. I think it depends on the city. I think New York is definitely a big no, no, but in PA, unless it was one of those big fancy new student-based apartments, most apartments allowed it.

30:13 Emily: Yeah. This is definitely something that if someone’s interested in this idea, they definitely just have to keep on top of the regulations because it can change really quickly. But yeah, your place in time, it sounded like it was perfectly acceptable and the numbers you were throwing out earlier were very impressive for the amount of money you were able to rent for, especially the graduation weekends. I’m just thinking, you saw a huge influx of people coming in for a game day, coming in for graduation, and you saw what hotels were charging and you just said, “well, I have a place to offer too.” That’s just amazing that you did that. It sounds like some of other people are doing as well, so it’s not like you are the only person who thought of it.

30:49 Indira: I think about maybe four or five of us did. I don’t know anyone who was doing before me. Not like I’m the person who told everyone about Airbnb, but I think everyone was a little hesitant about having someone in their apartment. Is someone going to steal my stuff? And so I think after just being like, “no, there’s no harm because Airbnb also reimburses you up to $1 million,” that’s what they say anyways. I think when I got a dog it got a little trickier. Towards the end of grad school, I had a dog and it was easy for me to just go stay on someone’s couch, because you have friends, you’re probably spending the night there anyways, but with a dog you have to bring a crate and then if they don’t allow dogs in their apartment that gets a little tricky. I would do it a little less frequently when I had a dog and then the last year I just didn’t at all because it just became inconvenient for both me and him and my friends. But I think without a dog or if it’s a really small dog where you don’t have to bring a crate and all that stuff, then I think that’s more flexible too. Or like my friends, if they did it a weekend, I would take their cats and stuff and because it’s easy with a cat and stuff. I just think it depends. For the most part it was, I think, my most favorite side hustle because it brought in the most money for the least effort. Then the second one would have been hair braiding because I just loved doing hair.

32:05 Emily: Yeah. That sounds incredible. And I think this is again, potentially very accessible for other people who live in college towns who can see the same patterns emerging of people flooding into the city for big events.

32:17 Indira: I mean anywhere, especially college towns that have football games because people are just going to spend money. They come with families, they want a big place or a place versus just a hotel room. And there’s a really low risk because the whole day Saturday they’re at the game, so they’re not really there and you can decide whether or not you want them to have parties at your house or not and then they usually leave early Sunday morning and they come late Friday night. It’s really one full day that they’re there. Even now in New York, I was looking into it before I found out that you had to do at least 30 days or something like that. New York would be a good place too if it wasn’t the 30 day limit because again, it’s just another place where people are always coming in. I think as long as it’s a place that people like to visit, I think you can do it.

Lifestyle Changes as a Debt-Free Postdoc

33:03 Emily: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I’m so excited about this. Thank you so much for sharing that. We’ve talked a lot about your time in graduate school. Now that you’re a postdoc and you have even more experience in a different city now as well, you have a whole different set of challenges. What does your budgeting method look like today? What are your best practices?

33:23 Indira: I still use the same thing. I have a monthly budget, I have fixed and flexible spending and I still pay off my credit card in full. Recently, I’ve been experimenting with just trying to calculate the percentage of things that I’m spending for each expense. You know, because of the whole don’t spend more than 30% on rent kind of thing.

33:44 Emily: Exception, New York.

33:46 Indira: Exactly. I’m like, I don’t have a choice. So just having a better sense of my income and where it’s going and what I’m doing. Because in grad school, for example I just had my main fixed spending, flexible spending and everything else just went to debt. Now that I don’t have necessarily debt to pay off, but I have a huge rent and living expense, I just want to know where that money’s going. I still have a Roth IRA and now I am also doing regular investments with stocks and bonds and all that stuff. I just have the one you just leave it and you forget about it. I don’t do the following the stock market. That’s a lot for me right now. Maybe eventually one day, but right now I don’t think I have the time for that.

34:27 Emily: Stick with your current strategy, it’s a good one.

34:29 Indira: Exactly, stick with what you know. For the most part I’m doing the same strategies. I have a Mint app and I also still have an Excel sheet just to kind of visualize where all the money’s going because I think it’s a lot of anxiety of just spending way more than 30% of my postdoc salary on rent, but I’m okay. It’s more of an emotional thing to just feel okay about it. I don’t have a lot of money and I’m spending a lot on rent, but I’m still okay. I’m still doing the same thing.

35:02 Emily: Yeah. Okay, great. What frugal strategies are you using? Are you still meal prepping?

35:08 Indira: Definitely. I still meal prep. My Mason jar salads are still part of my lunches. Depending on my workout schedule and whether I am consistent with working out, I do breakfast, but I haven’t figured out a meal prepping for breakfast yet. Sometimes it’s just a shake. And then dinners, I also still meal prep. I have been trying to strategize and trying to figure out whether I need to meal prep all dinners. Because it’s fine for me to eat the same salad for months and years while I’m at work, versus when I get home, if it’s winter, I don’t really want the same food I had yesterday or maybe want something hotter. It just depends. I’m still trying to figure out dinner, but for the most part I still don’t eat out a whole lot. I still budget, like this is what I’m going to budget for lifestyle this month and if it’s the second week and I’ve gone through that, then I guess we’re done eating out for the week or the month or you know, hanging out or whatever. I still budget everything for the most part and just try to not overspend on things that I don’t need.

Indira: I don’t really take Ubers. The train is pretty reliable in New York. Unless I’m really, really late for something and it’s important that I can’t be late, then I’ll take an Uber, but for the most part, I still take the train everywhere. I feel like a lot of people are just like, “let’s Uber and I’m like, no, I’ll meet you guys there. I’ll take the train.” There’s just so many ways to lose money in New York. It’s ridiculous. I’m still trying to figure that out. I’ve been here about nine months and so I’m still trying to figure out going out. I was a big outdoors person in PA, so parks and hikes were great. Not so much in New York, although I do live close to a park, but it’s not like a hike. I’m trying to figure out those new things because I know there’s a lot of free things in New York, I just need to figure those out. But I still for the most part have a lifestyle and it’s just a matter of, again, budgeting that lifestyle.

Final Words of Advice

36:53 Emily: Thank you for sharing that. Final question as we wrap up here. Thinking back to yourself, your starting graduate school, you have a low-ish income coming in, for the stipend. You have this debt load. In fact, you even took out a student loan because you were unsure about how things were going to go with your finances. What advice do you have for another person facing that kind of financial challenge and also on a grad student kind of income?

37:19 Indira: I mean I think it’s kind of the same things you just summarize. I think apply to everything, no matter how small or large the grants are, because I think the more grants you apply to, the better you get at grant writing. In the beginning it may seem like, “Oh my God, I don’t want to write this essay or this statement.” But over time I reuse statements. And as you get deeper in the program, you learn to write better. You change things, but for the most part I never really rewrote a grant from scratch after my second or third year. Apply for everything no matter how big or small. Don’t doubt that you’re not going to get it, because a lot of grants I got, I didn’t think I was even eligible. Especially for diverse, minority students. I think there’s so much money for minority students that people just don’t even apply to. And then they give it to, not anyone, but people who actually needed versus who don’t. Because people who need it don’t apply or they don’t know about it. Ask other students because there’s so much. A lot of the grants I applied to was because another student had applied to it before. Imagine one person may not have five or ten grants, but if you ask ten different people who had ten different grants that’s ten different grants you can get, so apply for everything.

Indira: Definitely pay off debt while you’re in grad school. Don’t let it sit there and whatever money you get, don’t use it for other lifestyles until after you pay for your debt. One thing I did was paying off debt and then whatever was left over I would have for fun, travel, and stuff like that. And it’s okay to take out a loan in the beginning, especially people who have like $100,000 in debt in undergrad. Yes, it’s not accruing interest, but if you want to take out a loan and just pay a lump sum for now and just to get in the habit of like paying something down, take out the loan. And apply for a lot of things. Have a strategy to pay off the loan before you finish grad school because that loan is going to accrue interest. But in the long run you paid off more in grad school and then it’s like it never existed anyway. So apply for everything, pay off debt while you’re in grad school, and do what you need to do to also still balance life and paying off debt because you don’t have to be miserable paying off debt.

39:21 Emily: And I definitely would also add to that, from your story, just go after it. I mean you were going after funding, you said no to your program: “No, you’re not going to cut my funding. I won so much money. No, you’re going to pay me more.”

39:34 Indira: When you’re starting, so I know I asked after, but even in the beginning, once I was through the program and seeing behind the scenes, you can ask for more money in the very beginning before you even start grad school. They’re not going to take back your letter and say, “well, you asking for too much” because if they have it, they’ll give it. The worst they can say is no. So if they have it, they will give it. So ask.

39:52 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. And I’ve done one podcast episode on negotiating grad student stipend, before in season one. I’m planning on releasing another one, actually a compilation of stories in the  early months of 2020. So if you’re very interested in grad student salary, stipend negotiation, please tune into those episodes.

Emily: Indira, thank you so, so much for sharing this story. Where can people find you?

40:16 Indira: I have been trying to be a lot more active on Instagram, so on Instagram it’s just my name, Indira Turney, so @indiraturney, I N D I R A T U R N E Y. And it’s the same on Twitter, as well. I think those are my two main networking platforms. Email is Indira dot Turney at gmail dot com. It’s fine if you want to ask me questions, please reach out. I’m always open. Like I had mentioned earlier, I’ve been trying to be more open, even about just budgeting on a grad school stipend on Instagram, but also I’ve been also doing a lot of one-on-ones with people just talking about their process because there isn’t a one size fits all for budgeting because people have different scenarios. If you’re interested, send me an email, reach out to me on social media and I’m happy to answer any questions.

41:05 Emily: Yeah, that’s amazing. Thank you for that work that you’re doing, and thanks so much for coming on the podcast today.

41:09 Indira: Thank you for having me. I had a lot of fun.

Outtro

41:12 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode’s show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to PFforPhDs.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to sell without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the free music archives and it’s shared under CC by NC.

 

The Graduate Student Savings Act Fixes a Major Flaw in Tax-Advantaged Retirement Accounts

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In this episode, Emily interviews Abigail Dove, a PhD student at Johns Hopkins. Abby spent last summer as a science policy fellow at the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology (FASEB). Her major policy accomplishment during her internship was to secure FASEB’s endorsement of the Graduate Student Savings Act of 2019 (GSSA), a bill that has been proposed in both chambers of Congress. Graduate students and postdocs are not currently permitted to contribute their non-W-2 income, which typically comes from fellowships and training grants, to Individual Retirement Arrangements (IRAs). The GSSA would allow this type of income to be contributed and have a very beneficial effect on the PhD trainee workforce. Abby explains her role in shepherding the GSSA endorsement through FASEB, what the GSSA would do for graduate students and postdocs, and how the GSSA relates to the SECURE Act, another bill that has passed the House and is before the Senate.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

SECURE Act fellowship income

Teaser

00:00 Abigail: But it was a little tricky for FASEB to first navigate the waters. They’ve never supported a tax legislation before. You think that experimental biology doesn’t have that much to do with legislation on tax. But here was a perfect one for them to start.

Introduction

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode nine and today my guest is Abigail Dove, a PhD student at Johns Hopkins and recent science policy fellow at FASEB, the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology. Abby’s major policy accomplishment during her summer at FASEB was to secure FASEB’s endorsement of the Graduate Student Savings Act of 2019, or GSSA, a bill that has been proposed in both chambers of Congress. Graduate students and postdocs are not currently permitted to contribute their non-W2 income, which typically comes from fellowships and training grants to individual retirement arrangements or IRAs. The GSSA would fix that problem and have a very beneficial effect on the PhD trainee workforce. Abby explains her role in shepherding the GSSA endorsement through FASEB, what the GSSA would do for graduate students and post docs, and how the GSSA relates to the Secure Act, another bill that as of this recording has passed the House and is before the Senate. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Abigail Dove.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:33 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Abigail Dove, and she is a PhD student who completed an internship at FASEB last summer. And she has a lot to tell us about the Graduate Student Savings Act. So if you have been wondering about your IRA and why you can or cannot contribute to it, that’s what we’re going to be discussing in today’s episode. Abby, thank you so much for joining me today and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

01:59 Abigail: Sure. Thanks for having me. My name is Abigail Dove. Currently, I’m a PhD student at Johns Hopkins and I just started my sixth year. I work in fruit flies and study the gonad development. A little bit of my background: I first started as an undergraduate at Bard college, a small liberal arts school in upstate New York. And then I did a postbac for two years at the NIH NIDDK (National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases) before starting at Hopkins. What we’re talking about is kind of the work that I did at my internship at FASEB, which is the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, which I guess to be a little more descriptive it’s a society that represents 29 member societies, which has about 150,000 scientists that they represent.

Tell Us More About Your FASEB Internship

02:57 Emily: Excellent. You and I have common that we both did a postbac at the NIH. In fact, I’ve interviewed several other people on the podcast who have that on their resumes as well. So very popular program. Anyone still in college considering going for a PhD in biomedical sciences or related areas should definitely consider the NIH postbac program. It’s amazing. Okay. So you had this internship at FASEB last summer. What exactly were you doing in that role? Because it’s a little bit unusual for a graduate student to have an internship. And I think especially a graduate student in the biological sciences because, I don’t know about you, but I sort of observe the culture as like, “ah, you need to stay at the bench 120% of your time and never do anything away from the bench.” So please tell us a little bit more about what you were doing in that internship.

03:40 Abigail: Yeah, so I was really fortunate. I have a PI that–we both know that I’m interested in a career that is outside of the academic track. So, I did a lot of science outreach and I knew that I like communicating science to the public. So I wanted to pursue this career of science policy as a way to talk to the public about science and its importance. So what I did at FASEB, I had a lot of responsibilities. I was particularly interested in training and workforce policy. So, policy that relates to students, postdocs, and even faculty as it’s something that everyone can relate to. So that was one of the reasons that I was most interested in it. And I did a wide range of things. I hosted a webinar on work-life balance and the lab culture and we can include a link to that if anyone wants to watch it later. I represented FASEB on Capitol Hill and at the NIH for different events and I generated comments on sexual harassment that will soon be sent to the NIH. I also helped organize an online symposium series for the FASEB Science Policy Committee on challenges facing women throughout their career lifetime. And then I compiled minutes for the meetings, I drafted talking points for committee members, and then the big thing that I did was I spearheaded FASEB’s endorsement of the Graduate Student Savings Act.

How to Land a Science Policy Internship

05:13 Emily: Excellent. And we’ll get a lot more into that in a moment. But that sounds like a really exciting internship. It’s absolutely fabulous that your PI was supportive in you completing that. I actually did a science policy internship as well. The Mirzayan Policy Fellowship out of the national academies. That was actually after I finished graduate school. But it’s available to current graduate students as well. So, if what Abby was describing sounds amazing to you, that’s another potential avenue for you to get that kind of experience in science policy. Okay. So how did you actually land this internship if other people are interested in doing something similar?

05:46 Abigail: Yeah, so I first started–we have an office at Hopkins, it’s called the Biomedical Careers Initiative Office. And it’s really great for people that are looking for careers outside of the academic track. They were offering a course on science policy and advocacy that was actually being taught by the Director of Public Affairs at FASEB, Jennifer Zeitzer, and the Director of Science Policy, Dr. Yvette Seger. So the class gave us a background on legislation and how bills get enacted into law. And we did some case studies on different issues in science policy. They also taught us how to be a science advocate. But finally, we had to write a policy memo on an opportunity or challenge in research activities supported by federal funding, and we had to give an elevator pitch on that to the class as well. And I did mine on saving for retirement as a graduate student and a postdoc.

06:48 Emily: Yeah. Excellent. And so was it through that paper and that pitch that you gave that you found the Graduate Student Savings Act?

06:56 Abigail: Yes, that’s how I found it. Oh, I guess we didn’t cover how I got the position too. So this office that hosted the class actually also hosts internships for students. And so FASEB was also accepting applications for science policy fellows through the Biomedical Careers Initiative Office. So I applied for that directly. But they also have internships for a wide range of different careers outside of the academic track, including industry and consulting and patent law as well as policy.

What is the Graduate Student Savings Act?

07:33 Emily: It sounds like a great deal of support actually, that Hopkins is providing and helping you sort of step a little bit outside of academia into another role that can really presumably help your post-PhD career, should you decide to pursue one in science policy. So let’s kind of back up a second and explain more about what the Graduate Student Savings Act is because it’s probably not one that most people have ever heard of. Right? Like probably a lot of people in my audience, they know about IRAs. Maybe they don’t have one, but they sort of know they’re supposed to or maybe they know they might not be able to have one. So what is the Graduate Student Savings Act?

08:06 Abigail: Yeah, so the Graduate Student Savings Act. There’s a bill in both the House and the Senate and they’re essentially the exact same bill, so they’re called companion bills. And they would allow graduate students and postdocs who receive their income through either a fellowship or stipend to contribute to an IRA or an individual retirement account. The current issue right now is that on the current tax law, trainees who are receiving their income through a fellowship or a stipend are actually prohibited from contributing to an IRA because it’s not considered compensation or earned income.

08:44 Emily: Exactly. And I like to further kind of clarify this for people by saying within academia we might use the word fellowship in different ways. We might use the word stipend in different ways. Nobody’s ever heard the word compensation. But what it really boils down to is, is your graduate student or postdoc income reported on a W2 or not reported on a W2? It could be reported somewhere else, it could be reported not at all. W2 income is the kind of income, taxable compensation, or earned income that can be contributed to an IRA under the current law. And anything else in terms of graduate student, postdoc income non-W2 does not fall into that category, unfortunately. So that’s how things currently stand. The Graduate Student Savings Act includes this type of non-W2 or fellowship income in taxable compensation for the purposes of contributing to an IRA. Is that correct?

09:39 Abigail: Yes. And unfortunately, it doesn’t change its designation universally. It doesn’t make it earned income or compensation, but it just allows it to be saved for retirement purposes in an IRA.

09:51 Emily: Yeah. This is one of those confusing things about the tax code in general is that they use these terms like “taxable compensation” and “earned income” under different contexts. And so sometimes they have different definitions under different contexts. So earned income has other implications in the tax code, like around the earned income tax credit. Whereas, taxable compensation has a different meaning. It’s under the section for IRA contributions and so forth. So it’s sort of defined there as “taxable compensation for the purposes of contributing to an IRA is these things,” and currently, it says explicitly, “does not include fellowship income, not reported on a W2.” So that’s the current status. But then there’s this Graduate Student Savings Act bill as you said, it’s sort of on the floor in both the House and the Senate.

How Abby Got FASEB to Endorse the GSSA

10:37 Emily: I was looking at the history of this and I think the first time it was introduced was 2016 and it’s introduced every year I think in more or less the same form until now, 2019. We should actually say we’re recording this interview on September 25th, 2019. It will be released within a couple of weeks of that date. So things might have changed. But as of September 25th, 2019, the Graduate Student Savings Act has not been passed but it is, I guess, available to be passed. So, what was the process like for getting FASEB to ultimately endorse the Graduate Student Savings Act, and what work did you do to make that happen?

11:15 Abigail: Yeah, so originally before I even did the class, FASEB was not aware of the Graduate Student Savings Act at all. It wasn’t on their radar. It wasn’t until I wrote my policy memo on the issues of graduate students saving for retirement, and I actually did the research and I was just Googling it and I came across it on my own, that we both kind of became aware of it. And so I kind of took this on as a task that I wanted to complete in my fellowship and I thought it was an important task and FASEB was great. If there was an issue that I really wanted to take on and it was something that was good for FASEB to endorse, they would have no problem with me taking the lead. So this was my big accomplishment of the fellowship.

12:04 Abigail: And since FASEB is a nonprofit organization any bill that they support needs to have bipartisan support for endorsement. And that thankfully both the House and Senate bill had bipartisan support on both pieces of legislation. I think some of the previous iterations of the Graduate Student Savings Act didn’t have bipartisan support. So this was really important for FASEB to get on board. But it was a little tricky for FASEB to first navigate the waters. They’ve never supported a tax legislation before. You think that experimental biology doesn’t have that much to do with legislation on tax. But here was a perfect one for them to start.

Personal Impact of Flawed Tax Legislation

12:49 Emily: Yeah. As you were saying earlier, it’s a clear workforce issue. Right? So that’s the definite connection or conduit between what they do generally and this weird little tax quirk that happens to deeply affect their own workforce.

13:03 Abigail: Well, yes. So this actually personally affected me. From when I was in college and doing other side jobs, I was always contributing to an IRA, if possible. My dad is very financially responsible and he just told me when I was young, “you need to have an IRA.” He always recommended a Roth IRA. He always thought it would be better to get tax first and any profit you make later you don’t get taxed on. So there’s two different IRAs, a Roth and the standard IRA. So maybe some clarity on that. But this personally affected me when I was a post-bac for those two years I was receiving stipend income and wasn’t reported on a W2 so I couldn’t contribute to an IRA for those two years.

13:51 Abigail: Then my first year in graduate school I was on a training grant, so also not receiving a W2 so I couldn’t contribute. My second year I was actually a teaching assistant, so I was being employed by the university somewhat and getting my income reported on the W2. So I was for that year able to contribute, which was really great. And then I got awarded the National Science Foundation, Graduate Research Fellowship award.

14:20 Emily: Congratulations, but also, dun, dun, dun.

14:23 Abigail: Yeah. So it was really great. But then I also couldn’t contribute to my IRA because it wasn’t reported on a W2. So that affected me for my third and fourth year of graduate school. My fifth year I got married. So that changed things a little. I was still on my NSF fellowship. But because I was married to someone who had a real job and was receiving income that was deemed compensation, I was able to contribute to my Roth IRA just because I was married to my husband. so that was my last year of my fellowship. Now I’m back at Hopkins and I’m TA’ing for this year. So I will again be able to contribute even if my husband wasn’t receiving earned income himself.

15:14 Emily: Yeah, I have a little bit of a similar story of flip-flopping between RAs and fellowship income. And at some point I got married and so my husband, having a similar situation of flip-flopping between RAs and fellowship income, it helped in certain years one of us would have a taxable compensation, maybe the other one wouldn’t. So one of the things that helps people in this situation–under the current status of fellowship income, non-W2 income is not eligible to be contributed to an IRA–one thing that helps is that the academic year and the calendar year do not line up. So, if you have different sources of funding in two different academic years, maybe you can be covered for one calendar year in terms of being able to contribute. It helps if you’re married of course, to someone with taxable compensation. And the other workaround is actually having a side hustle that is self employment income. So self-employment income is taxable compensation that can be contributed to an IRA. So that’s something I sometimes float with people who are frustrated by their multi-year wonderful fellowship packages that don’t allow them to contribute to an IRA. If it’s possible to side hustle, that’s another way to kind of sneak in that eligibility. So, your stipend wouldn’t be eligible, but that side hustle income would be eligible. All these are workaround solutions, the real main solution is just changing the tax code because this is ridiculous that this is happening, right?

Commercial

16:35 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs, and other early-career PhDs for universities, institutes, conferences, associations, etc. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs, like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you are interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. That’s p f f o r p h d s.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

Anything Else About Your Role in FASEB?

17:25 Emily: Okay. So, anything else to add about your role with getting FASEB to endorse the GSSA?

17:31 Abigail: Yeah. So, because it was a tax bill and FASEB had never endorsed a tax bill before, they want it to go through full process of endorsement. They wanted to get everyone’s feedback on it. So the first step was going through their Training and Career Opportunities Subcommittee. So, they have a monthly meeting, I prepared talking points for the chair of that committee, and we discussed it and they couldn’t see anything wrong with it. So, we got a full endorsement from that subcommittee. Then we had to go up one level to the Science Policy Committee and did the same thing, had to talk to the entire committee, got overwhelming support of it. So, it got pushed up to the next FASEB tier, which was the executive committee. They gave the final approval. Actually, for the Training and Career Opportunities Subcommittee and the Science Policy Committee, I made a one-page summary of the current situation and how the Graduate Student Savings Act would change that. So, a one-page review for them. And then when we went for approval for the Executive Committee, we had the full letter drafted for them to approve, and we can also give you a link to the FASEB’s endorsement letter too, as well.

18:56 Abigail: Normally, it would go to the FASEB board for approval, but the board was jam-packed with what they had to do for that month. So, because we got unanimous support from the two committees before that, they thought that the Executive Committee approval would be sufficient. But I started my internship in June and it wasn’t approved until the first week of September. So, it does take a long time for this approval to go through because you have to wait every month for the next committee to happen. And if there are changes and edits to it, then it can also take a lot of time. You want to do it as quick as possible so the endorsement actually has an effect if the bill is getting voted on soon.

19:47 Emily: Yeah, exactly. This is fascinating to hear kind of how the sausage is made, and not even to make the policy, but just to get something like this: an endorsement from group whose endorsement matters in this kind of thing. What I’m just thinking is how good it is that FASEB has connections to the current trainee workforce like through you and other interns they accept because they had you to tell them, “Hey, this is an issue that’s going on. And by the way, there’s a solution to it and it’s in front of Congress right now.” So it’s just, I guess it’s really good for them to offer these kinds of internships programs to get those fresh ideas and those connections to people who are still in training.

20:30 Abigail: Yeah, I think they really appreciate the fellowship program for that same perspective. The younger generation. People serving on these committees and the boards are faculty members that have been serving for a while and they’re very removed from this training portion. I think there might be–and correct me if I’m wrong–but I think there could be a few postdocs who are serving on boards, but I think that’s very unlikely. Most of it’s always faculty. There’s never a postbac representative in these meetings. So, having a fellow there, they really value so they can get that younger perspective on what’s happening currently.

What is the SECURE Act?

21:10 Emily: Yeah. That’s excellent. Okay. So that was your role with FASEB and then with respect to the GSSA, the Graduate Student Savings Act. There is a different bill before Congress that has sucked up a lot more attention in terms of changing the tax code than the GSSA has, and that is the SECURE Act. Can you tell us what the SECURE Act is? Not in a lot of detail, but basically just how it relates to the Graduate Students Savings Act?

21:35 Abigail: The SECURE Act is Setting Every Community Up for Retirement Enhancement Act of 2019, and it’s just a massive retirement savings bill. For some perspective, the Graduate Student Savings Act is a two-page bill, whereas the Secure Act is 124 pages. So it’s just way too large for FASEB to endorse something so big. But fortunately, it has almost the exact same wording as the Graduate Student Savings Act in one of its sections. So it would get across the same thing as the Graduate Student Savings Act. It would allow graduate students receiving unearned income to contribute to an IRA account. It just was too big of a bill for FASEB to endorse because we can’t vet everything and it’s a little bit out of FASEB’s wheelhouse.

22:22 Emily: Yeah. So, basically what sounds like has happened is that the Secure Act has absorbed the Graduate Student Savings Act pretty much verbatim. And it’s making a lot of other changes as you said to retirement accounts. I’ll link to a couple articles on the Secure Act from the show notes, but some other things that caught my eye that it’s trying to address are like having part time workers have more access to 401k’s. It’s changing a little bit of the distribution rules, like once you’re actually in retirement and about inherited IRAs and there’s just a lot of changes there. Abby and I were glancing over it and we saw something that, “Oh maybe this addresses the kiddie tax.” We’re not even sure about that, which would be amazing if it does. So there’s a lot of different things that it touches.

23:02 Emily: And as you were saying earlier, like for FASEB being able to endorse the GSSA, the GSSA had to have bipartisan support. In fact the Secure Act does have bipartisan support. It passed the House and is currently hung up in the Senate as of, again, September 25th. Because the Secure Act passed the House with such strong bipartisan support, everyone kind of thought that it would pass the Senate really quickly. But it’s been hung up, so its future is uncertain but hopefully it will get through. And the wording that was adopted from the GSSA, hopefully that would actually be maintained. And in the final version we would actually see this benefit be extended to graduate students and postdocs where it wasn’t before. But that’s kind of where things stand as of today as of this recording. Hey, maybe by the time this is published something will have changed on that front. That would be awesome.

23:56 Abigail: I think something also important to note is that the wording of the bill, I don’t think that it would also apply to postbacs. It seems very specifically to graduate students and postdocs. So I think, unfortunately, postbacs would be still excluded from the Graduate Student Savings Act.

How Will the Internship Help Your Future?

24:12 Emily: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. I’ll have to take a look at that because I didn’t realize there were distinctions being made among different levels of training. We’ll see how that actually shakes out. It’s always sort of uncertain until kind of the next tax cycle rolls around how these things are actually going to be implemented and everything. Thank you for pointing that out. For postbacs out there, this might not be the news you’re looking for. Maybe you still need the side hustle or maybe you still need to get married to have one of these workarounds. Just kidding, people don’t do that. Okay. So Abby, how do you think that this internship experience with FASEB is going to benefit your future career?

24:52 Abigail: Oh, I think it benefited me already tremendously. Besides from just getting a sense of what science policy really is and getting to immerse myself in it and what I would expect in a job. I got great networking. I already met a bunch of people because FASEB represents so many other societies. You know, I really got to get my name around and people know my work now. I also just got a ton of experience. I generated a bunch of writing samples, which is really crucial in the science policy job search, and I think I’ll get great references also for future jobs. So, it’s benefited me tremendously.

25:30 Emily: Do you have specific plans yet for after you finish? Like what positions you might apply for?

25:35 Abigail: Yes, I’m probably looking for science policy analyst positions. When I graduate. I don’t see really any benefit of doing a postdoc afterwards. There are people that continue to do more science policy fellowships. I’m kind of in the boat where I would just like to be out of fellowships and schooling and just want a real job. And I think with this internship I generated enough experience that I would be able to get an entry-level position and be a sought-after candidate.

Final Advice for Early-Career Grad Students

26:08 Emily: Yeah, I have a great deal of sympathy with that position of, “okay, I don’t need any more training. I’m trained. Let me have a job. Finally.” Definitely. So Abby, last question here, which is one I ask all of my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be related to something we’ve talked about today or it could be something entirely different.

26:29 Abigail: Yeah. So I think of course I would recommend that everyone should open and save in a Roth IRA account and start saving what they can, even if they can’t hit the max. But I think more importantly, we know that graduate school is a really stressful time, and I think it’s really important to invest in your personal wellbeing. And so if that means, paying for workout classes or traveling or if it’s even retail therapy. I think whatever it is, if it’s important to you and if it makes grad school a little bit saner for you it’s important to put some money aside and make time for yourself.

27:08 Emily: Yeah, it’s, it’s actually a little bit weird that sometimes we have to give graduate students permission to spend money on themselves. But if you think about it like more broadly, other people when they receive the financial advice to cut back on those discretionary expenses, cut back on those Wants and so forth, it’s usually because they’re spending at such a level that’s actually endangering their other financial security.

27:35 Emily: Graduate students I would say in general are not spending a sufficient percentage of their income on discretionary things for themselves. Actually, sort of to tie this back to the GSSA, one of the co-sponsors of the GSSA is Senator Elizabeth Warren. She’s sponsored every year in the past, whatever, four years that it’s been up. Many years ago, back when she was a consumer advocate, basically, she wrote this book called All Your Worth. She co-authored it with her daughter. And that book promotes the balanced money formula, which is to spend, of your after-tax income, no more than 50% of your after-tax income on Needs, 30% on Wants and 20% to Savings. And I was looking at that the other day and I’m thinking that graduate students, I would be surprised if they spent 30% of their income on their Wants.

28:28 Emily: Usually, it’s that Needs category that gets up to 60, 70, 80% or more because of rents and high costs of living areas and low stipends and all of those kinds of problems. So yeah, in fact, sometimes we do need to hear the advice that it is okay to spend a little bit of money on yourself to help bolster your mental health and help you get through graduate school in great shape. Of course, it’s ideal if you can do that alongside saving for your future and doing all these other great things, but we want you to get through graduate school in one piece. So yeah, thank you for that advice, Abby, and for giving this interview today.

29:02 Abigail: Well, thank you for having me.

Outtro

29:05 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to pfforphds.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to do so without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC.

How to Find and Apply for Fellowships (with ProFellow Founder Dr. Vicki Johnson)

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In this episode, Emily interviews fellowship expert Dr. Vicki Johnson, the founder and director of ProFellow. After completing multiple professional fellowships and her PhD, Vicki decided to help other fellowship seekers do the same by creating the ProFellow database, which now contains more than 1,200 professional and academic fellowships. Vicki relays the best way to find and apply for fellowships and gives excellent advice for making your fellowship application stand out. Winning a fellowship is the best way to increase your stipend or salary as a graduate student or postdoc, and Vicki shares from her experience some of the other career benefits that fellowships bring.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

fellowship application

Teaser

00:00 Vicki: At the end of the day, these organizations that are outside of the university are funding fellowships as a way to further their social impact mission. So make sure you understand what is the mission of the fellowship organization, why are they funding your research or would want to. Make sure you tie your story to their mission, how you’re going to further their mission. That will make you a more competitive candidate.

Introduction

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode three and today my guest is Dr. Vicki Johnson, the founder and director of ProFellow, the leading online resource for academic and professional fellowships. Vicki herself did four professional fellowships in addition to her funded PhD. Vicki and I discussed the best way to find and apply for academic fellowships, and Vicki gives excellent advice on how to boost your applications’ chances of success. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Vicki Johnson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:06 Emily: Welcome to the podcast. Today, I am joined by Dr. Vicki Johnson, who’s the founder and director of ProFellow, which is a fantastic fellowships database and just amazing resource for graduate students and postdocs and anyone pursuing fellowships kind of in any way. Vicki and I are going to be talking today about everything fellowships. How do you find them? How do you apply for them? How do you win them? Because she is really the premier expert on this topic in our space. So Vicki, thank you so much for joining us today.

01:41 Vicki: Thank you for having me!

01:42 Emily: Can you tell us just a couple words about your background? You know, you have a PhD and how you got started with ProFellow.

01:50 Vicki: Sure. I actually started out in the fellowship world as a professional. I did four professional fellowships in the field of policy and I did some in the U.S. and some abroad. As I was progressing through my career, I did my Masters and then ultimately did my PhD, which was actually just a serendipitous thing that I did while I was on a professional fellowship. Then I had a major career transition about five years ago and decided to teach other people about how to find and win fellowships through ProFellow. And now I’m fully focused on that as my thing. I love fellowships, and I’m excited to tell people more about them.

How Do You Define “Fellowship”?

02:27 Emily: Yeah, it sounds like you have a ton of personal experience as well as your extensive professional experience. So yeah, let’s get started with that– with a pretty basic definition. What is a fellowship? Because that term can mean a lot of different things depending on who you’re talking to. So how do you define it?

02:45 Vicki: So for the purpose of our website, we sort of decided that the definition would be “short-term funded opportunities to do something exceptional.” So there’s a lot of funding opportunities, professional development opportunities, graduate school funding opportunities that aren’t necessarily called fellowship and title, but they do provide funding. They are time-limited, so they’re usually anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of years in length. And they provide you the resources and the network that you typically wouldn’t get in either a job or even just the regular scholarship. So it’s a pretty broad definition. People typically have heard of postdoctoral fellowships or they’ve heard of scholarships and things. But it’s a really very broad definition. So there’s quite a few professionals fellowships and also a whole other world of academic fellowships.

03:36 Emily: Yeah. And so I think today we’re going to be focused mostly on those academic fellowships, the ones that will pay your stipend, maybe pay some tuition and fees, pay your salary if you’re at the postdoc level. But just so people are aware, your site covers much more than that. And in fact, I did a policy fellowship myself after I finished my PhD. It was the, the Mirzayan Fellowship in DC. And that’s something that I wrote about for your site because that fellowship is one among the many others that you cover. But we will be focusing today on those academic fellowships. But just for anyone who’s thinking about another fellowship opportunity, still go back to ProFellow because it’s going to be an amazing resources for you as well. So with these academic fellowships, how do you go about finding them? We’ve all heard probably of the standout one in each of our fields, whatever that is, but there are going to be a whole lot more, too. So how do we go about finding these fellowships?

How to Use ProFellow to Find Fellowships

04:26 Vicki: Well here I’m going to do a big plug for the site profellow.com because we have an enormous database of fellowships at both the professional and academic level. So if you sign up for free to use ProFellow, you can create an account and come in and search our huge database. And within it there are filters. So you can either select fellowships for doctoral study, graduate study, which would include masters programs and postdoctoral research in addition to professional, even summer fellowships for students. You can narrow it down that way and then you can also narrow them down by discipline, your citizenship, years of work experience. I would also say use certain keywords. So let’s say you’re working in conservation. You can use that as a keyword in the database. But for the most part, I tell people to keep their search filters quite broad because there are a lot of fellowships that are multidisciplinary in nature.

05:18 Vicki: So even if it’s not specifically a conservation fellowship, there could be a whole range of fellowships that you can do a conservation related research project, or dissertation research or whatever, with the fellowship because it might be a broader social sciences fellowship or STEM fellowship. So keep your search broad and take the time to look through. We purposely made the listings so that they’re really brief and easy to skim and you can bookmark opportunities. And then you can also from the listing go to the website to learn more. And honestly, I only say this because it’s true. We are a better place to look for fellowships than, say, on Google. If you Google these things, you’ll come up with all sorts of stuff that may or may not be relevant to what you’re looking for. And it’s very difficult to find fellowships on Google or even just through word of mouth. So, use the website. It’s free, and it’s a great way to also find out about new opportunities that are coming up every year.

How Do You Maintain the ProFellow Database?

06:12 Emily: Yeah, thank you so much for that. I’ve been referring to ProFellow for many years as a key database for all of this, and it’s exciting to hear what all you do. I’m actually wondering how you find all these fellowships. Are you well-known enough that these new programs just e-mail you when they have something new coming up, or how do you maintain this database?

06:31 Vicki: Oh, good question. Well, back in the day, nobody knew who we were. But now that we’ve been around since 2011, we have a brand name in the fellowship industry. And honestly, some of the larger categories of fellowships– like, let’s say you’re Googling journalism fellowships or mid-career fellowships or postdoctoral fellowships– ProFellow will rank some of our articles at the top of the list. There are other keywords that we’re still fighting for to get to the top of the list. But if you’re listening to this and you’ve heard of us, you’ll see that. And we’re also very active in the fellowship industry. I just came back from a conference in DC, the Impact Fellowships Summit. So, our name is growing. We’re still a bit skewed toward, U.S. Citizens, U.S. Students, or people coming to the U.S. in terms of what funding is out there. But we are also growing globally. So we are getting more and more fellowships for non-U.S. citizens, international students, or people from other countries going to non-U.S. countries. So, it’s growing. So, there are more and more things. The more you share us with your friends and your colleagues and your professors, the more well-known we will be and even more fellowships we will list.

Applying for Academic Fellowships

07:40 Emily: Yeah, wonderful. Okay, so we have a grad student or a postdoc or an aspiring one of those categories who wants to win a fellowship. What’s the application process like for these academic fellowships?

07:54 Vicki: Yes, well, if you have never applied to a fellowship before, you’ll see that actually it can be similar to applying to graduate school. Usually, there’s a personal statement, recommendation letters, short answers that you have to respond to. In many cases, for the academic or research-related fellowships, you might even have to put in a research proposal. That could be anything from a really brief research proposal to something that’s really long and intense. So, it’s different for every fellowship. I say, get started early. The first thing you should identify is: what do you need to include in the application? I think if you’re in graduate school, you’ll be used to this process of writing a personal statement and talking about your goals, what you want to achieve in your research, so that experience will help you as you pursue the fellowships.

08:42 Emily: So I liked that you drew parallels between the process of applying to graduate school and the process of applying for fellowships. In fact, sometimes even the timing of those things can come together. Right? Do you find that fall is a heavy fellowship season or is it kind of spread out around the year?

08:58 Vicki: Oh yeah, that’s a very good question. Yeah, typically it’s just like the graduate school process where it’s based on the academic year. So you do want to look for fellowships as early as possible. Deadlines tend to fall anywhere between October and January. That’s kind of a typical, what we call, fellowship season. And so if you’re looking for funding, it’s often not very easy to get a fellowship that’s going to fund your next semester right away or even in a few weeks or a few months. Usually, you’re looking a year out. So that’s why, let’s say you’re entering your coming year– your academic year. The fellowships that you apply to this fall typically will fund your following academic year. So yes, keep that in mind. It’s an important kind of timeline that people should be aware of when they’re looking for fellowships.

How to Get Ahead of Fellowship Deadlines

09:42 Emily: Yeah. This is definitely something you need to plan ahead for. Can you tell me a little bit more about, not necessarily the timeline about the fellowship applications cause presumably they just have a due date, but all the various components that could go into an application. Different kinds of essays, letters, just stuff that you need to be working on. Like what do you need work on well in advance of these deadlines?

10:03 Vicki: Well, I think it’s really important if you’re looking for funding for academic research, say your dissertation, to do field work and that sort of thing. A lot of times what the fellowship organizations want to know is they want to know that you’re going to be successful. So when they fund you, they want to know that your project can be successfully completed in the time period of the fellowship with the resources available with the funding available.

10:25 Vicki: So if you’re applying for, say, like a summer fellowship that is only three months in length. That’s not enough time to do your entire dissertation. You’re probably just doing one element of it. So make sure that your research proposal, if that’s part of your application, really reflects what the fellowship is offering and what can be accomplished in that. Because feasibility is very important. It doesn’t matter how great your ideas is; if it’s not feasible, it won’t make it to the next stage. And in the personal statement too, they want to see more about why you’re passionate about your research topic. What are your longterm goals? Often people forget to put in what their career goals are or what they’re going to do after the fellowship. That’s really important. Make sure to include those because at the end of the day, these organizations that are outside of the university are funding fellowships as a way to further their social impact mission. So make sure you understand what is the mission of the fellowship organization, why are they funding your research or would want to. Make sure you tie your story to their mission, how you’re going to further their mission. That will make you a more competitive candidate. So those are, I would say, the main things to include.

Commercial

11:29 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs, and other early career PhDs for universities, institutes and conferences, associations, et cetera. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you are interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking that’s p f f o r p h d s.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

More Advice for Fellowship Applicants

12:18 Emily: Yeah, so it sounds like there are some of these elements, you know, essays that you can reuse much of for several different applications that you might have. But some things are definitely going to have to be tailored to the specific organization.

12:30 Vicki: Absolutely. My mantra is that the amount of effort that you put into your application directly correlates with your likelihood of success. So, I know people don’t want to hear that, “Aw, man, I have to put a lot of time into my application,” because on top of it you’re studying and you’re working, you’re doing other things. But it’s true that when you’re focusing on an application, start it as early as possible because then you can break out times on your calendar to be able to focus just on the application and also make sure to tie in your professors, your mentors. They’ve been doing this a long time. Many of them have won multiple fellowships, multiple grants and funding awards. Don’t do this in a little silo by yourself. Make sure you tell your advisors, your professors that you’re applying for the fellowships because they could have some great insights. They may even be connected to the fellowship in some way you might not be aware of. So, be sure to reach out for advice from those groups, too.

How to Stand Out as a Fellowship Applicant

13:29 Emily: Yeah, we’re definitely getting into some good advice here for fellowship applicants. These fellowships presumably get hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of applications. What’s going to really make a candidate stand out and make a fellowship application look very, very strong?

13:48 Vicki: Yeah. The two main things, especially with the academic research, if you are applying to a fellowship that is being funded by a foundation, a nonprofit government agency, NGO, whatever that is, make sure that you understand the mission of the organization. I think I mentioned this already, but a lot of people sort of skip over this part. They are so wrapped up in explaining their research and why they want to do it that they don’t really tie why their research aligns with the mission of the organization. So it’s very, very, very important that you touch on that mission. They may not ask you how you feel about their mission. They may not ask you how it ties to their mission. But when you think about the other group, the other person–the investors, as I like to call it–they’re investing in you. Make sure you make a really clear reason as to why they should invest in you because they have a purpose for the fellowship and you have a purpose for your research and you’ve got to make sure they tie together.

14:47 Emily: Yeah. Excellent. Any other advice for making an outstanding fellowship application, but let’s say also just an outstanding fellowship applicant? What can you do in your life that will go on your CV or that people will be able to write about in your letters that will help you stand out?

Fellowships: More than Just the Fellowship

15:05 Vicki: You know, I think some people get a little bit intimidated by the fellowship process. Like you said, there’s hundreds, thousands of applications and it can be really disappointing to get a rejection letter from a fellowship that you worked really hard on the application on. But just keep in mind that the effort that you put in, your professors and your supervisors are watching as you do this. And so even if you’re rejected, I’m telling you, there’s something extra that you get. I don’t know what the right word is, that will help you as you go further in your career. So it’s not all for not if you don’t get into the fellowship. But also, if you do get into a fellowship, make sure to take advantage of the wider resources that the fellowship offers.

15:49 Vicki: There’s usually an alumni network. They’re connected to high-level organizations and leaders in your field, both in the U.S. And globally. Take full advantage of every opportunity that the fellowship provides beyond just the funding that they’re going to give you. Because we all know that when it comes to career tracks that, these days to get a job, you have to be in the know. You have to know somebody, you have to be an influencer, you have to have personal connections. And these are things that are very valuable that you can get out of the fellowship. But also, these personal connections that you make are also very valuable when you’re applying to fellowships, too. So as you’re applying, reach out to alumni, reach out to professors and mentors, get as much advice as you can. All of this, little bit incrementally, adds to your success long-term.

How Often Should I Apply for Fellowships?

16:37 Emily: Yeah, I’m really glad you brought up the other benefits of winning a fellowship aside from the funding itself. So I had a friend in graduate school who was a Hertz Fellow. I was blown away by the number of networking events and opportunities to meet potential employers that that fellowship provided. It was truly outstanding, and I don’t know that there are that many others that go to that degree. But certainly as you said, there are alumni networks that you can be connected to. Really, it is another way of networking. A very, very good, strong networking connection to have won a fellowship. One other thing I wanted to ask you about: another guest that I just had on who was a fellowship applicant said something along the lines of, “it’s sort of a numbers game.” You just need to apply to a lot of stuff and hopefully, here and there you’ll win something. But really, as you said, each fellowship application takes a good amount of time dedicated to it. Would you say that people should be applying to a few fellowships every year? Not necessarily like full, “it’s going to pay everything” fellowships, but just some kind of award that they could go up for.

17:42 Vicki: To be honest, I’m not really in the mind frame of the numbers game. I’ve heard people say that. I’ve heard multi-award winners say that. As as I said, I have won multiple fellowships, but for each of them I was sort of applying for them one at a time. When you’re applying to graduate school or looking for graduate funding, often you do have to apply for a few at a time in the hopes that you get one of them. But I don’t know necessarily that it’s a numbers game where you just throw out a million applications and hope that one sticks, because I do think that approach could also distract you a little bit from really putting in the focus that you need to create a strong application. I would say just make sure that you’re a good fit for the programs that you’re applying to.

18:23 Vicki: If it really is a stretch, is your research actually furthering the mission of the organization? If it’s really a stretch, it might not really be worth applying to. Whereas if you find two or three fellowships that you think you’d be a really good candidate for, go for all three, because it will be worthwhile. And I should also say people should look into summer fellowships too, which are just kind of brief summertime fellowships that are specifically for students. Some of them are professional in nature. Some of them are for academic research as well. But even those little summer fellowships give you those professional networks and experiences that you can’t get otherwise and they’re very, very good for your post-graduation career goals.

Final Advice for Fellowship Applicants: Be Yourself

19:06 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for your insight on that. I’m going to ask you a little more about ProFellow in a moment, but just before we get there, any final words of advice for fellowship applicants?

19:17 Vicki: Oh, just be yourself, too. I think people worry too much about telling the organization what they want to hear. And I do teach people about the social psychology of really understanding the mission and making sure that you link your work to that. But at the same time, to be your authentic self is really valuable. There are people reading these applications. They’re not robots. They’re people. So, tell your story, your authentic story, and really be yourself. And if you get thrown a hard question, answer it as honestly as you can. If it was meant to be, it will be.

Additional Resources at ProFellow

19:51 Emily: Okay. So tell us a little bit more about ProFellow. You’ve talked about the database a little bit already, but I know you have a lot more stuff going on aside from just, this is where we can search for fellowships.

20:00 Vicki: Sure. At profellow.com, we do have this huge database of funding opportunities that you can search. We also do articles featuring fellows and ask them about their fellowship experience and their application tips. So it’s a great place to hear what fellowship alumni say about how they made their application stand out, what they did to get above the hundreds of thousands of applicants. We also do listicles, we do articles. Specifically, “10 fellowships in policy,” “25 dissertation fellowships.” So we have a lot of resources that help you find the fellowships and get the tips. We also have workshops, usually on a monthly basis, on everything from creating a great personal statement to creating an exceptional research proposal.

20:45 Vicki: So if you’re on our mailing list, you’ll be alerted to those things as well. And actually, next week and two weeks from now I’m doing a Fulbright applicant mastermind for people that are applying for the international Fulbright awards. So that’s something that if you’re considering as an enrolled student for either your field work or just to have an international experience, a Fulbright is something you can consider. But yeah, we have all sorts of stuff. We even have ProFellow academy, which is another platform for free advising. So you can ask questions, connect with fellowship alumni, have office hours. So yeah, we’re just chockfull of resources. Most of it’s free. So, sign up, get on our mailing list and then you will have access and also get alerts about new fellowship opportunities.

How to Connect with ProFellow

21:26 Emily: Yeah, that sounds amazing. I’m actually trying to think, “oh, is there any fellowship that I could apply for? Does that fit in my life right now?” One of those professional fellowships that you mentioned. So profellow.com, is that the best place to go? Or are you on social? Any other contact information you want to share?

21:41 Vicki: Oh, yes. You’ll find us also on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn. But really just go to profellow.com. That’s the place to be. Sign up right on the homepage and that’ll get you right into the database. You can also search our site for all the other great stuff. Be on the lookout for our biweekly newsletter, ProFellow Insider.

22:00 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much, Vicki for joining me on the podcast today and sharing your expertise with us.

22:06 Vicki: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Outtro

22:08 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to pfforphds.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to do so without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC.

What to Do With Your 401(k) or 403(b) When You Start Grad School

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One of the common perks that companies and organizations give to their employees is access to a workplace-based retirement account such as a 401(k) or 403(b). They may even match your contributions to a degree! Unfortunately the great majority of universities do not give their graduate students access to their 403(b)s. (This does happen rarely, so it’s worth inquiring about.) If you had a 401(k) or 403(b) in a prior job, what do you do with that account when you leave your job for grad school?

Further reading: Financial Reasons to Work Before Starting Your PhD

401k grad school

Your Three Options for Your Workplace-Based Retirement Account

In general when you leave a job, you have three options for what to do with your 401(k) or 403(b).

Leave It Where It Is

Most of the time, your former employer will permit you to leave your 401(k) or 403(b) where it is and continue to manage the account for you while you are in grad school. Employers usually have a minimum balance requirement to maintain these accounts, so your account has to meet that bar.

The upside to this approach is that you don’t have to do anything, and if you liked the investment options and account fees, you can keep using it.

The downside to this approach is that you have to stay in some degree of contact with your former employer and go through them if you want to make any changes to the account.

Roll to Your New Workplace-Based Retirement Account

If you have the option to open a 403(b) with your university, you may be able to roll your previous 401(k) or 403(b) into that account. Again, this opportunity is rarely extended to grad students.

Roll to an IRA

You always have the option when you leave a job to roll your 401(k) or 403(b) into an Individual Retirement Arrangement (IRA). An IRA’s tax advantages are similar to those of a workplace-based retirement account, but you manage the account yourself instead of your employer managing it. Be sure that you have instructed your firms to execute a “rollover” directly to your IRA and not to cash out your account and send you a check, which would be a hassle to correct. You can use an existing IRA account or open an IRA account specifically to receive this transfer.

Which Option Should You Choose?

The general personal finance advice is to always roll your 401(k) or 403(b) when you leave an employer to avoid eventually having accounts scattered across many employers and potentially losing track of one. Whether you should roll into your new employer’s 401(k) or 403(b) or your IRA is debated. If you are trying to optimize the investments inside your retirement account, IRAs have an advantage because the entire world of investment options is open to you, whereas the options inside a 401(k) or 403(b) are only what your employer decides to make available. Sometimes, 401(k) or 403(b) plans are more expensive than what you can get inside an IRA, and since cost minimization is a key tenant of successful investing, again IRAs are preferred.

However, this general advice is not necessarily fully applicable to grad students.

First, your options are mostly likely to be either to leave your 401(k) or 403(b) where it is or to roll it into an IRA.

Second, you may not want to manage your own investments. While managing your IRA can be easy and hands-off, it may still be intimidating, and some students might prefer to simply choose among the options offered by the former employer to opening and managing an IRA.

Third, the investments available to an individual investor inside an IRA may not be as attractive as the institutional-level investments available inside a 401(k) or 403(b) in terms of their fees. To paint with an overly broad brush, 401(k) and 403(b) options at smaller companies and organizations may be more expensive than what you can buy inside an IRA, whereas 401(k) and 403(b) options at larger companies and organizations may be less expensive than what you can buy inside an IRA. So if you were employed by a university or a large company before starting grad school, compare the cost (expense ratios) of your current investment options with those at the brokerage firm you’re considering for your IRA. It may turn out that your existing options are more favorable.

Further reading:

My advice to entering grad students is to roll your 401(k) or 403(b) into an IRA unless you have high-quality, inexpensive investment options inside the workplace-based retirement account and do not want to manage your own account.

Other Advice Related to Retirement Saving

You’re on a great path already by starting to invest for retirement through your job. If at all possible, continue to make excellent choices related to retirement investing during grad school.

Contribute Money to Your 401(k) or 403(b) While You Still Can

It’s a great idea to kick your retirement savings rate into an even higher gear in the months you have left at your job. You’re likely to not have access to a 401(k) or 403(b) again for quite a while, so any additional money you can get into that tax-advantaged account will be a huge boon to your post-PhD self. (Plus, you’re forcing yourself to deflate your lifestyle, which you’ll have to do in a few months anyway!)

However, don’t become so zealous about retirement saving that you compromise your cash position. It’s going to take a good amount of cash to transition into grad school between moving costs, start-up expenses, and university fees. You don’t want to put a lot of money inside your 401(k) or 403(b) only to turn to credit cards to make it until your first grad school paycheck.

Keep Investing for Retirement!

Yes, it is sometimes possible to invest for retirement during grad school, but it heavily depends on your stipend, the local cost of living, and the rest of your financial situation. If you have no pressing debt, enough cash savings for emergencies and short-term expenses, and some excess cash flow, please continue to invest for retirement!

Further reading:

If you have W-2 income as a grad student (typically from an assistantship) in a given calendar year, you can contribute to an IRA. If you don’t have IRA eligibility due to receiving only non-W-2 (typically fellowship) income in a given calendar year, don’t let that stop you from investing for retirement! You can still use a taxable brokerage account. Between tax-efficient investments and your low tax bracket, you are likely to still enjoy tax benefits of investing even outside of an IRA.

Further reading:

Consider Traditional to Roth Conversion During Grad School

During your time in grad school, you may be in a lower tax bracket than you were while at your previous job. Grad students, unless married to someone with a much higher income, are usually in the 12% marginal tax bracket at the highest.

If you have any money in a traditional 401(k), 403(b), or IRA (which you certainly would if you ever received a retirement contribution match from your employer), consider converting it from traditional to Roth during your lower-earning grad school years. It’s pretty unlikely that you’ll ever be in the 12% (or lower) tax bracket again after you finish grad school due to both your personal earning potential and today’s rock-bottom income tax rates, so it makes sense to do the conversion at that low tax rate to gain the benefits of a Roth IRA. (People are flocking to do this type of conversion even in much higher tax brackets!)

Further reading: Why the Roth IRA Is the Ideal Long-Term Savings Vehicle for a Grad Student

When you do the conversion, you’ll have to pay income tax on the full balance of your traditional retirement account. Before you start the conversion process, be sure that you 1) have enough cash to pay the tax and 2) are not bumping yourself into a higher tax bracket with that income infusion.

You don’t have to rush to do this in your first full calendar year as a grad student if you’re not ready, but you should do it as early as you can, and keep an eye on that year in which you expect to finish and get a higher-paying job.

This conversion can be slightly complicated if you only want to convert part of your traditional money in any given year, so be sure to discuss your plans with the brokerage firm that houses your IRA.

Conclusion

Great job on contributing to a 401(k) or 403(b) prior to starting grad school! The positive financial habits you’ve already cultivated will serve you well during and after grad school. If you want to take any steps at all with your existing workplace-based retirement account, they are quite straightforward and easily accomplished.

How to Start Grad School on the Right Financial Foot

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Starting a PhD program is, professionally and personally, one of the most exciting times of life. You’re meeting people who will be your peers and advisors in the coming years whose research interest align with yours, getting acclimated to a new university and city, and of course starting a fresh school year. However, many first-year PhD students, as they’re going to happy hours to get to know their cohorts and buying their textbooks, are thinking to themselves: “Am I going to make it until my first paycheck arrives?” Financially speaking, starting a PhD program is one of the most challenging times of life as well.

The financial challenges of the transition into a PhD program are myriad and the resources are likely to be few. Moving to a new place and starting the school year are expensive endeavors, and sub-optimal decisions around housing and transportation may reverberate in your finances for years to come.

I present this article not to discourage you in what should be an invigorating and hopeful experience, but so that you have time to prepare for its unique financial demands. Starting grad school on the right financial foot means that you are poised for financial success throughout your PhD instead of reeling from the initial financial blow and playing catch-up for months and years to come. Here is what you can do in the months leading up to your transition into grad school to start in a place of financial strength.

grad school right financial foot

Draft a Budget ASAP

It’s vital to put your stipend offer in context as early as possible. The number may strike you as generous-for-a-stipend or meager, but until you know something about the local cost of living it is rather meaningless.

The best way to get an idea of how far your stipend will go is to start drafting a budget and use approximate numbers until you lock in various aspects of your living expenses. Two starting points are the Living Wage Calculator and the estimated room and board from your university’s financial aid office. Neither one of these numbers will prove to be totally accurate (I hope they are both overestimates of what you will pay) but it’s a start for the triangulation.

Your draft budget should include:

  • The income tax you expect to pay,
  • Your necessary expenses, i.e., housing, transportation, utilities, groceries, household consumables, clothing, etc.
  • Your discretionary expenses, i.e., restaurant and bar spending, travel, entertainment, etc.), and
  • Your education expenses, i.e., tuition and fees required to be paid out of pocket, course supplies, etc.

Further reading: How to Read Your PhD Program Offer Letter

To a degree, you can use your current expenses (if you track them) to estimate what your future expenses will be, possibly with an adjustment for the shift in the cost of living.

It’s quite difficult to drill down into the specifics of what you will spend in a job/life that you’re not yet in, especially if you are not currently tracking your expenses. Therefore, you can use placeholder percentages to help you estimate your expenses and guide your decisions. For example, the Balanced Money Formula states that you should not spend more than 50% of your net (after tax) income on all of your necessities together (including minimum debt payments). This is a challenging benchmark for grad students to adhere to, especially in high cost of living areas, but it illustrates how important it is to keep your necessary expenses in check to the greatest degree possible.

Further reading:

Thoroughly Research Your Housing Options

Housing is by far the largest expense in virtually every grad student’s budget, and first-year PhD students are expected to make this enormous financial decision with little to no insight into the local area. The result is that graduate students often overextend themselves in their housing costs, which are financially, logistically, and emotionally difficult to change.

Starting grad school on the right financial foot means locking in your fixed housing and transportation costs at a reasonable level for your stipend. The general rule of thumb is to spend no more than 25-30% of your net (after tax) income on housing. This guideline proves impossible for many if not most PhD students, who may be paid too little, live in an expensive area, or both.

Further reading: How Much of Your Stipend Should You Spend on Rent?

Particularly in those challenging housing markets, the best course of action to find the most suitable housing (even if you spend more than the guidelines) is to start your search early and thoroughly research your options. I recommend starting your research with a housing survey conducted by your university or graduate student association (if one exists) and senior grad students who are paid a similar stipend to what you will be (e.g., 3rd years and up). From these sources you can ascertain the price range you can expect for housing and potentially tips on the best locations, housing types, and even specific complexes or landlords to pursue.

Further reading: Your Most Important Budget Line Item in Graduate School and Why You Need to Re-Evaluate It

A note on on-campus or university-affiliated housing: On-campus housing is attractive for students moving from a distance because it short-circuits this whole decision-making process. But this type of housing was not all created equal. At some universities, the university housing is subsidized, which means there is likely fierce competition to live in it. At other universities, the university housing is more expensive than comparable non-affiliated housing. You won’t know whether university housing is a good deal and worth pursuing until you talk with current grad students.

Further reading and listening:

Go Frugal on Transportation

Alongside figuring out your housing options and eventually committing to something, you need to decide how you will get around town. If you don’t own a car, you might need to buy one. If you already own a car, you have to decide whether to bring it with you or sell it.

Owning a car, even without a car loan, is a very expensive undertaking. Beyond the cost of the car itself, you typically have to pay for insurance, parking, gas, registration fees, inspection fees, taxes, maintenance, and repairs.

If it is feasible to live car-free in your new city and you don’t currently own a car, I recommend trying to live car-free for your first year. You can always reassess and buy a car at a later time if you decide you want one.

If you decide to buy a car or keep the car you already own, make sure you globally assess your expected costs (not just the best-case scenario!) and write them into your budget. An expensive or newer car costs you more not just in the purchase price but in your insurance premiums as well.

Your transportation and housing expenses are necessary to fix in concert to a degree. If you decide to live car-free, you might choose to pay more to live closer to campus or on a convenient bus route. If you decide to buy or keep a car, you can offset some of those costs by finding less expensive and less convenient housing.

Create a Transition Budget

Most graduate students experience what I call the long and expensive first month of grad school, though I have noticed some universities are working to change this pattern. You must prepare for this long and expensive first month prior to starting your transition to grad school.

The expense of the first month comes from your move. First, the moving expenses themselves: your and your possessions’ transportation to your new city plus the cost of feeding yourself and so forth during that time. Second, the start-up expenses for your new place: first (and last) month’s rent and security deposit, deposits for your utilities, furniture, and stocking your pantry. Third, the expenses of a new school year/term: any money that you must pay to your university in a lump sum and the expenses associated with your coursework.

The long first month refers to the length of time from when you move to your new city until you receive your first paycheck. Personally, I showed up for orientation in mid-August and didn’t receive my first paycheck until the last day of September. Of course, that time includes all your regular living expenses, on the back of your moving expenses.

You want to be sure going into the long first month that you can come out the other side without racking up debt. Saving cash in advance to pay for the transition is the best solution, and a transition budget will help you estimate the total cost.

Build Your Financial Foundation Now

Because you have several months between now and your matriculation into your PhD program, you have the opportunity to establish your financial foundation prior to the challenges of this transition. By financial foundation I am referring to saving cash for the transition, saving an emergency fund, paying off debt, and/or investing – whatever is most appropriate for you right now.

If you currently have a full-time job, you have the most opportunity to shore up this foundation, but even as a student or part-time/gig economy worker, it is still possible to a degree. It will be well worth a few months of sacrifice, either in terms of earning more through a side hustle or spending less through frugality, to start grad school on the right financial foot instead of a few steps behind.

Further reading: Financial Reasons to Work Before Starting Your PhD

After you save the money you need for your transition into grad school, consider whether you can pay off any of your current consumer debt completely (e.g., credit cards, car loan, medical debt, IRS debt). While you can defer student loans while you are in grad school, these other kinds of debts will still require minimum payments even while you receive your stipend, so it’s worthwhile to attempt to knock them out completely.

Further reading:

If you spend the time and effort now on planning out your expenses and saving money, once you matriculate you will be able to focus solely on the stimulating new people and experiences you encounter instead of experiencing financial stress. Starting grad school on the right financial foot by locking in a good deal on housing and not allowing yourself to fall into credit card debt also sets you up for financial success throughout your PhD. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

If you would like to me to work with you on navigating your financial transition to graduate school, please check out my financial coaching program exclusively for rising grad students.