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This PhD Student-Nurse Is Confident in Her Self-Worth

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In this episode, Emily interviews Brenda Olmos, a nurse practitioner and rising third-year PhD student in nursing. A first-generation college student who grew up without financial stability, Brenda was debt-averse throughout college and her master’s degree and started building wealth in her 20s through investing and real estate, eventually aligning with the FIRE movement. When she decided to pursue a PhD in her late 20s, she held out for an online program with an excellent culture and funding package. Thanks to her lucrative outside work, Brenda has continued to invest consistently during her PhD, although more slowly than she did pre-PhD. Brenda’s strong financial position and career optionality have set her up well for a fulfilling post-PhD career.

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Teaser

00:00 Brenda: It’s so cool to like see yourself grow in ways that you never thought you could. And financially like, okay, maybe I’m taking like a 50 or $60,000 per year cut. But in the course of my life, like is three years really going to matter that much, you know? And how much more will my life be enriched by having this degree? Like what doors will it open for me? Whether they’re monetary or not is not really the point for me anymore. And that’s something that I was able to achieve in my twenties.

Introduction

00:37 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 2, and today my guest is Brenda Olmos, a nurse practitioner and rising third-year PhD student in nursing. A first-generation college student who grew up without financial stability, Brenda was debt-averse throughout college and her master’s degree and started building wealth in her 20s through investing and real estate, eventually aligning with the FIRE movement. When she decided to pursue a PhD in her late 20s, she held out for an online program with an excellent culture and funding package. Thanks to her lucrative outside work, Brenda has continued to invest consistently during her PhD, although more slowly than she did pre-PhD. Brenda’s strong financial position and career optionality have set her up well for a fulfilling post-PhD career.

01:56 Emily: Would you please help me out with something? I want to record six podcast interviews this fall to be published over approximately the next six months. Will you consider being a guest? As a listener, I’m sure you have something to say about money as a PhD or PhD-to-be! Simply fill out the Google Form at PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ to get the ball rolling. Alternatively, if you have someone in mind who you’d like to hear me interview, please connect me with that person over email or Twitter! I really appreciate it! Let’s keep the podcast going strong! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Brenda Olmos.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:52 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today someone I know from Fintwit, Brenda Olmos. She is a rising third-year PhD student at the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center. She’s actually doing a PhD in nursing, so a very different kind of PhD student than we’ve had on here before. Not only that, her program is online, so she lives in Austin, Texas. So, Brenda, I’m so happy to have you on the podcast and get to have a deep-dive conversation with you. Will you please tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself?

03:20 Brenda: Sure! Hello everyone. My name’s Brenda Olmos. And, like Emily said, I live in Austin, Texas, and I’ve grown up in this area of central Texas and really enjoy living here. So, when I was searching for PhD programs, I was definitely searching for distance programs. And that’s the case about me being in an online PhD program. I grew up, like I said, here in central Texas, and I went to UT Austin for my undergraduate in nursing degree. Six years later, I graduated with my Master’s in Nursing as a family nurse practitioner. So, I had about six years of experience as a registered nurse at the bedside, which means I basically worked in inpatient hospital settings, taking care of people who were acutely ill. And then I chose to leave that setting when I became a nurse practitioner and I worked in an outpatient primary care setting for older people.

04:11 Brenda: So, I’m a geriatric nurse. And I found a scholarship in 2019 for geriatric nursing research. And I was kind of at a point in my life where I was satisfied with my career, and I found it rewarding. I found my work very gratifying, but I felt that my potential wasn’t really maximized in that role, that I made a difference one-on-one with patients, but that I wanted to make a difference at a larger scale. And in nursing, there are two paths for a doctorate degree. There’s a Doctorate in Nursing Practice, which is a DNP, and a lot of nurses do that because they want to make immediate change, like in administration or policy. And then there’s the PhD, which is the Doctor of Philosophy. And that’s more of a research-based doctorate, like most other PhDs in which you focus on generating new knowledge and you learn the research process.

05:07 Brenda: And I actually had really great mentors, which caused me to lean towards the PhD. And I chose the PhD in nursing because I felt that I wanted to have the doctorate that was universally recognized as a terminal degree and as a doctorate, whereas a DNP is very specific to nursing. I wanted to have something that, you know, the three letters that mean something to everybody <laugh> in the world, right? So, that’s kind of been my trajectory. I worked as a nurse practitioner for three years, full-time from 2017 to 2020. And then in 2020, I had been accepted to the PhD program. I was still kind of on the fence about it because I was making six figures as a nurse practitioner. And even though I didn’t know at the time that I had won this scholarship, I was like, I don’t know, this is a big leap to take. And then the pandemic hit and that took away so much of the joy of my work. And so much of the compensation that I realized I’m ready to go do something different. So, I’ve been in my PhD program since August of 2020. And like you said, I’m going into my third year now.

06:13 Emily: Wow. I love when I get someone on the podcast who has really, really thought deeply about their career and the trajectory of it and chosen, after all of that, to go into a PhD program. I don’t want be, you know, too critical of people who went like directly from undergrad down that path. I went almost directly from undergrad, but I just think it takes on a different tone. You have more focus in your research usually with all that like background work experience, and especially for you having a very, you know, very solid, super lucrative like career leading into that and you just really thought about, well, what do I want in my life? How do I want to be spending my time? That’s actually a lot of what we’ll be talking about today.

06:51 Emily: And I just want to kind of frame this for the listener a little bit that you know, Brenda’s had, as we just said of really different career trajectory than probably most people who are listening, probably the vast majority of people who are listening. And so once we get to start, you know, talking about Brenda’s finances, you’re going to see a pretty rosy picture. And it is of course, largely due to having that career in her twenties. But I don’t want you to like dismiss this episode as like, you’re never going to learn anything from it because you’re not in the same kind of position that Brenda was, because I still think there’s going to be something here, some strategy, some mindset, especially, that you can learn from. So, keep with us even though it may be a little bit of a different kind of story.

07:29 Brenda: And I do want to add to that that not every nurse is in my position, right? Like I had a really great scholarship for undergrad. Probably about 75% of my undergrad degree was paid for through scholarships and grants. I paid for my master’s degree, partially through hospital tuition reimbursement, and partially by working full-time. But I had classmates who took out a hundred thousand dollars for two years of their master’s program, and they’re paying that off now, right? So, I just want to be transparent about the fact that like, don’t go up to every nurse and be like, oh my God, you have no debt and you make a ton of money. Like, no, I was very strategic about the way that I got my education and I was always debt-averse. And so, I think that’s also important to point out.

Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE)

08:14 Emily: Yeah. Because I next want to kind of talk about you discovering the FIRE movement, which you did prior to starting the PhD program, but you had already, as you just said, taken some, you know, FIRE-like steps leading up to that, by being debt-averse, by working a lot while you’re in school, by choosing an employer who’s going to give you tuition reimbursement and so forth. So like, you were already setting yourself up well financially, even if you hadn’t, you know, discovered that particular movement. But let’s go to that like moment when you discovered the FIRE movement and what appealed to you about it? Like, why did you decide to start going that route?

08:45 Brenda: Yeah, I think a lot of it was rooted in, like for many of us, the way that we grew up around money, right? Like the beliefs that were planted in our minds as young kids. And for me, and I’ve talked about this in BiggerPockets and in some other podcasts, is that I had so much financial instability growing up and I knew so much about my parents’ finances and I knew the lows and I knew the highs. And I had kind of, maybe not consciously, but unconsciously decided that I was going to be stable, that my adult life was not going to be a roller coaster of emotions, secondary to my financial situation. And so, I think that’s why FIRE appealed to me because it was like, oh, I don’t just have to be stable. Like, I can be free. <Laugh>, you know, it’s like, there’s one extreme where you’re tied to the ball and chain, there’s the middle ground where you’re stable and you’re working, you’re saving, maybe you’re investing. And then there’s financially independent where no matter what you do, whether you work or you don’t work, you’re okay, right? So, I found out about it through some podcasts, StackingBenjamins, Afford Anything, Earn and Invest. And I just started listening and I was like, wow, there’s a lot I can do with some money I have saved up. Or like, maybe I should buy a property, you know? And that’s kind of how it all took off.

10:13 Emily: I think we’re going to get here, like later in the interview, but this like really interesting overlap in your story between pursuing FIRE and pursuing the PhD, and like the time freedom that FIRE can give you to then apply it to your academic interest. Even if those interests don’t pay as well as other career paths, perhaps, that were available to you. So, I really hope, yeah, we pull that out later in the interview. So, give me a couple, like, you know, mechanical things that you did in those early years of FIRE. You mentioned, oh, maybe I should consider buying a property. Like, what were some things that you did that were deviations from the path that you were on before, once you learned about FIRE?

10:49 Brenda: Right. So, I started investing in a brokerage account, which I had never done before. Like the thought of investing in the stock market was really foreign to me. I knew that my parents had 401(k)s, but I didn’t know that that was investing in the stock market. And so, I started doing research on that. And I talk about this on the podcast I have with my friend, Minority Millennial Money, about how my first experience into investing was like going to Wells Fargo and having an advisor there telling me that I needed at least $25,000 to like open a portfolio <laugh> and, you know, I look back on that and I did it. But I look back on that and I’m like, oh, I was so naive, you know? And now I know so much more and eventually, I transferred it out of Wells Fargo, but so the first thing was investing, and the second thing was buying a home.

House Hacking

11:40 Brenda: First, it was a small condo in 2017. Prior to that, I had kept my living expenses low because I just lived with a friend who owned a home and I rented a room from her for $600 a month, right? So, for Austin, even seven years ago, that was really cheap. So, and I didn’t, I don’t mind living with people, but it was nice to have my own place when I bought a condo in 2017. And then in 2019, I bought a single-family home and I rented out the condo. And so, now I have both.

12:11 Emily: So, let’s see, in 2019 you bought the single-family home, in 2020, you started the PhD program. So, are you still living in that single-family home? Or did you move again?

12:19 Brenda: Yeah, and I house hack it. So, I mean, house hacking is really just having roommates, right? So, basically, I started having travel nurses stay with me so that I didn’t have a permanent person. I just kind of had a nurse house. And so, I really enjoyed that. And there was a little bit of a lull there when COVID hit because many of their contracts got canceled. And so, I was at a critical point where I was like, I’m quitting my job. I have this house to take care of and the income may not be there, but it ended up working out. And hosting travel nurses is really awesome.

12:59 Emily: Yeah. This strategy of house hacking is one that I have given some air time to in the past and I’m really excited about for PhD students, because for that stage of life, it’s already really normalized to live with roommates. And so, if you have the financial wherewithal to be able to purchase, be the owner and be the landlord, it can like really radically transform your finances. So, so glad to hear that you were taking advantage of that strategy even before starting the PhD.

Choosing a Supportive PhD Program

13:22 Emily: So, we kind of already talked about like, why you wanted to start the PhD, you know, why you thought it was the best move for your career. Did you want to add any more details about, I don’t know, that particular program or anything else about your, you know, deciding to go down that career?

13:35 Brenda: Yeah. And, you know, we have met over Financial Twitter and there’s also Academic Twitter. And on Academic Twitter, I see so many horror stories of like really difficult programs, really toxic environments. And I was like, A) I don’t have to do this. So, I am not going to go to a program like that. And B) What if I found a really great program, you know? And so, I just created a spreadsheet with all the schools I was looking at. And this particular program, the director called me, she wanted to talk, she was warm, she was encouraging. And she was genuinely interested in me, you know? And I was like, wow, that’s really special. Whereas other schools like just sent me computer-generated emails, you know? And I was like, okay. So, like my email just went into like a black hole. So, that was important to me, especially because I know that people don’t know this, you know, people outside of nursing don’t know this, but nursing academia has a really negative reputation for being very toxic, very discouraging, not supportive, hazing, in a sense.

14:44 Brenda: And it’s especially prominent at the graduate, you know, and doctoral level. So, I was like, I don’t need that in my life. So, I’m going to look for a program where I feel like it would be a good experience. And I found that, and I was like, okay, I could do this here. So, that was important to me. And also, it was important to me that, if I was going to take this big financial hit, that it was going to be for something worth it. And like you said, for me, the PhD is really something I’m doing for personal enrichment, right? There’s no guarantee that I’m going to make more money when I’m done. You know, I made almost $200,000 in 2019 just working a little bit extra. If I get a job that makes me that much post-PhD, I’ll be really excited. But for me, it was also really important to see people that look like me because I’m a Latina nurse practitioner. And I just could count on one hand how many people who were nurses who had PhDs, who were Hispanic, that I knew, you know? And so, in a field that’s predominantly or 95% white women, I thought it was important to increase the representation.

16:00 Emily: Yeah. I love all those overlapping motivations. And I love, it sounds like you were patient, right? Like you were willing to be really selective about the program that you went to. And I love that little note about like, oh, this person actually called me, like, I talked to this person over the phone instead of just email correspondence and just form letter stuff. And I love that like, you looked at this field, like you said, it has this bad reputation, and you said to yourself, I don’t need to do this. And I’m only going to do it if I can find the program that is going to be really supportive of me. It’s the right fit for me. And even if you know, Academic Twitter and everything else is telling you, no, no, everything’s terrible. It never, it doesn’t exist anywhere. You were like, no, I’m going to hold out and find that perfect program for me. And you did. So like, I just say that to point out that, like, that’s a limiting belief that you could have had. Like, you could have told yourself, oh, I’m never going to find a home. It doesn’t matter. People like me never, you know, get into this level of nursing or succeed or whatever, whatever. And you chose to not have that limiting belief, right? So, I want other people to hear that message as well.

17:02 Brenda: Yeah. And I’ve spoken with my classmates about this, and I think I’m just fortunate in the sense that I have a very positive disposition <laugh> and so I didn’t, it never occurred to me that I wouldn’t find one. I just thought, I just need to find one <laugh>.

Net Worth in Grad School

17:17 Emily: Okay. So, let’s hear more details about your life, like coming into the program. We’ve heard a couple of things. You already owned two properties. You had been making like over six figures. In fact, your income was nearly $200K in that year immediately prior to starting graduate school. Would you like to share anything about like your net worth or just any other aspects of your financial picture at the time that you started graduate school?

17:38 Brenda: Yeah. So, at the time I started graduate school, that was 2020. So, my net worth now is about $550,000. And at that time it was probably, I think I remember tweeting about it and I think it was like $330K at that time. And that big leap has really just been real estate prices just skyrocketing. And so, I do count like potential, you know, appreciation in my net worth. And then I probably have, right now, I have about $160K or $170K invested. And at that time I probably had like $120K. And so, I’ve been contributing, let’s see, with Roth contribution maximum, which is 6,000, plus about a thousand dollars a month. So, that’s like $18,000 a year in the last two years. So yeah, that makes sense. $120K plus another $35K to $40K. So, I’m at $160K. And I anticipate, you know, this is just kind of a lull in my investing trajectory. And once I go back to full-time work and I’m earning a full-time income again of hopefully at least a hundred thousand, if not more, because I’ll be able to add my clinical practice contract work to it, then I’ll be able to go back to investing closer to $25,000 a year.

19:00 Emily: I mean, investing $18,000 a year while you’re in a PhD program is well, definitely the highest number that I’ve heard <laugh> of anybody on the podcast. So, you’re not exactly a slouch in this area. But so, prior to the PhD, though, it sounds like you were using a taxable brokerage account and maybe some employer-provided stuff 401(k) or 403(b).

19:18 Brenda: Yes, a 401(k).

19:18 Emily: Yeah. Okay. And so, that benefit went away, I assume. Like at the moment you’re only doing your Roth IRA and then the taxable brokerage account.

19:27 Brenda: Yeah. And actually, so before the episode, we talked about my stipend. So, my stipend is, just to protect my time, I don’t owe any kind of labor for that stipend, but I am limited to working 20 hours per week. The great thing about that stipulation is that I’m not limited to how much money I can make. I’m just limited to hours I can work. So, I have been a graduate research assistant at the university since spring of 2021 with one of my professors. And we’ve actually published two papers together, which is awesome. But one of the benefits of that is that as a GRA, you become staff of the university and you get access to their 403(b) and 457. So, I have been contributing at least half of my GRA income, which pays $25 an hour. And what’s funny about this is that the original pay for that position was $15 an hour at the university.

GRA Salary Negotiation

20:27 Brenda: And I told my professor, I was like, I’m sorry, like, I am passionate about your work, but like, I just cannot do it for $15 an hour. Like I have too many things going on and I have too many other much more lucrative offers. And so she went to financial, I don’t know, the financial services building and they agreed to bump it up to $25 for everyone in the nursing program, because we’re all registered nurses, at least, you know, some of us are nurse practitioners. So, it was like almost insulting <laugh>, you know? I mean, I don’t want to be a snob about it, but it’s like, who would take $15 when I can go work the same hour for $65 or $75? So anyway, so yeah, I’ve been doing the Roth, the taxable brokerage, which really comes third on my list. Like if I’m short on money one month, that’s the last one I fund. And then I contribute 50% of that $25 per hour income, which is 10 hours a week, a thousand dollars a month. So, half of that goes to the 457. And I chose the 457 on purpose because you can access it anytime without penalty.

21:38 Emily: Love all those details. Actually, it’s interesting because most people who I speak with who are like on the level of 10-hour per week employees are not offered those benefits. So like, I would say that’s a great, like, exception that your university or health sciences center offers that. So, that’s awesome that you’re doing that. And I love that you, you know, shared that negotiation story and that it not only benefited you, but benefited everybody. Like this is a message I’m trying to get across with like, you can negotiate for yourself as an individual. Yes. But it can also help other people when you do that, because it sends a message.

22:12 Brenda: I wouldn’t have expected them to just give it to me. I mean, it would’ve been fine, but then it’s like, I think it was a fairness issue, right? Because they were like, oh, well, all these other students are also doing it. No, it was great. And I think it was definitely something that the graduate college had to take into consideration because you’re looking at, you know, graduate students, but we’re also working professionals, right? So, that is kind of a unique situation that nurses in graduate school are in.

22:43 Emily: Absolutely.

Commercial

22:47 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2022 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15, 2022. Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax, and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives.

24:06 Emily: If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. Now back to our interview.

Sources of Income in Grad School

24:50 Emily: So, let’s like back up a tiny bit and talk about sort of all of your income sources during graduate school. Because you know, you’ve mentioned a couple times you have this really fantastic scholarship, so let’s start there. Like, what does the scholarship give you?

25:02 Brenda: Right. So, the scholarship is specific to my university, and it’s a special foundation that was money given through a philanthropic organization. And they basically allotted $150,000 scholarships separated into three years, $50,000 per year. That comes out to $30,000 per year or $2,500 per month as a stipend, and $3,000 for summer tuition, $6,000 for spring and fall tuition, and $4,000 leftover are for travel to conferences and that kind of thing. And I will say that I have used some of your courses and the taxes because that $2,500 counts as 1099 income for me. So, I do have to pay taxes on that. And most of my contract work is not on a W-2. So, I do have to pay taxes on that as well.

26:01 Emily: Okay. So, it sounds like the scholarship is fully paying your tuition and fees, giving you a stipend of $2,500 a month, and you have this additional professional development fund per year. Wow. Okay. That sounds great, but we’re not done yet. The way that we talked about this earlier, and I think the best way to phrase it for the listener is that that stipend of $2,500 per month essentially protects 20 hours per week of your time for you to devote to your dissertation research, or your classes, whatever it is you have to be doing for your PhD. And so, with the next 20 hours of your work week, you can be doing other paid work in that time. So, you can earn above your stipend. It’s just, you’re limited in the number of hours you can spend working. And so for you, you’ve already mentioned like the assistantship that you have at 10 hours per week. Do you have any other work that you do in the other remaining 10 hours per week?

Clinic Contract Work

26:52 Brenda: Yeah, so my former employer kept me on as a contractor. So now, I technically work for the agency that staffs their clinics, but they have urgent care clinics every weekend from nine to four. So, I’ll pick up weekend shifts. And occasionally, because my former boss knows me and knows that I know like the day-to-day clinic work, then he’ll ask me if I can work some days during the week. And so, I’ll do that. And that’s at $75 an hour. And then I have a couple of other jobs where I fill in for other nurse practitioners, like when they’re on vacation or they’re out sick or something. And the great thing about some of those is that they’re kind of slow clinics. And so, I can just take my schoolwork and do it there <laugh>.

27:43 Emily: Yeah. Sounds like a sweet deal. So, with all these active income sources together, the stipend plus the other work that you’re permitted to do, what does that add up to in terms of like your yearly income on average?

27:56 Brenda: So, last year my taxes were a little bit complicated, so I have the 1099 income, and then I have the real estate income. And I don’t take any of that as income from the real estate. So, the condo has its own account, and it has a little emergency fund for itself. And anything that it makes, it stays in there for emergencies, and same with the house. It has its own account. I pay rent into the homes account for myself, and then my tenants pay for pay into that account as well. But I rarely take any money from those accounts. So, I don’t count that. So, out of $112,000 last year, about $30K of that was from the rentals. And so, I really made about $70K, probably. So, $30K of that was from the stipend and then I made another $40K in part-time work.

28:53 Emily: Okay. So interesting. So, you have income sort of on your tax return, you have income that you don’t actually consider, like you’re not actually taking it into your personal accounts. You’re just leaving that as emergency funds and so forth for the real estate stuff. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, earning $40K on top of the $30K, again, really great for a PhD student. So good for you. The message that I want the listener to be hearing from this part of the interview is Brenda’s time is valued in a certain way because of her existing credentials and work experience and so forth. But earning something like $75 an hour is not out of the question for a PhD student in other disciplines. Depending, of course, on your work experience and what your field is and how, you know, in-demand it is, et cetera.

Valuing and Monetizing Your Skills

29:38 Emily: So, like you made the comment earlier. It’s a good thing they’re only limiting me on time and not the amount of money that I can make, because, you know, in some of your income sources, you can command quite a high hourly rate. I would love for other graduate students and postdocs to hear that message and think about, wow, if I’m making $75 an hour, a hundred dollars an hour, I only need to work two hours a week to make a really huge difference in my budget. You know, like when you can get to those high hourly rates, you don’t have to spend a ton of your time, you know, to get your finances in the shape that you want them to be in.

30:10 Brenda: For sure. And I think that, you know, like you said, I have a very particular skill, but there are skills that I don’t have that I would gladly pay someone $65 an hour to do. Like currently I’m dealing with some big data and I’m like, oh my gosh, I’m like going on websites of like, you know, people you can pay on an hourly basis to like walk you through something. And I’m sure that there are people in PhD programs who know this like the back of their hand, and they’re just not making themselves available for someone like me. Because I can earn that money, you know, relatively easily, and I’m happy to pay someone for their expertise as well. So, that’s very true. And I think that maybe sometimes, you know, I am very aware of my skill because I have a license and a certification for it, but you may have skills that other people need that don’t necessarily have, you know, very formal credentials, but that people would be happy to pay for.

31:12 Emily: And I think it’s so easy to get caught in this trap of undervaluing yourself inside academia. Like what you were talking about earlier with like the $15 versus $25 per hour negotiation that you did. It’s so common inside academia to undervalue ourselves. We see everybody else doing it, then we do it as well. But if you can take a little bit of a pivot and maybe, you know, market your skills to somebody outside of academia where these are not, you know, a dime a dozen kind of skills that everybody has, then you can, you know, potentially get those higher hourly rates. So, definitely food for thought, I hope, for some people.

Negotiating In-State Tuition

31:42 Emily: So, I think that you are probably the first interview we’ve had on the podcast who is doing like a hundred percent remote program. Not just like remote for COVID or whatever has been going on temporarily. So, you live not in the same state as where your university is. So, how does that work out with your scholarship and with the tuition and everything?

32:02 Brenda: Yeah, so that’s true. I specifically was looking for long-distance programs because I like where I live. I live close to my family, and I knew that a PhD was an experience that I would need support for <laugh>. And so, I didn’t want to leave my support system behind to do that. And so, whenever I got accepted to the University of Oklahoma and I was still living in Texas, and I had no plan to leave Texas, there was the issue of out-of-state tuition costs. And so, I got accepted in about March 2020. I found out I got the scholarship in April of 2020, and I had kind of set that as the bar, like if I get accepted and I get the scholarship, I’ll go, right? But then I thought, well, out-of-state tuition is almost double, right? It’s the difference between $10,000 and $6,000 a semester.

32:58 Brenda: And I just told the director, like I really want to go to this program, and I’m really grateful for the scholarship, but I realized financially that the out-of-state tuition is going to eat up about 50% of my stipend per semester. So, is there any way I could get in-state tuition? And she actually took it up to the graduate college and they agreed to give me a waiver for three years. So, I pay in-state tuition, and actually the great part about being a graduate research assistant is that, when you take on that position, it’s actually the grant that is funding you, that pays the waiver. And so, the waiver that I had originally been promised can be given to someone else while I’m a GRA.

33:44 Emily: Wow. Okay. Another great example of negotiation, and also another kind of general negotiation point that I like to make to prospective graduate students is like, you don’t necessarily know all the different levers that these people behind the scenes can pull to like enhance your package. So, you made the suggestion, maybe I could pay the in-state tuition rate instead of the higher rate, and they made that happen. And if that hadn’t exactly been possible, maybe they could have found a different way to augment your package to make up that, you know, $4,000 per year difference. So, yeah, so encouraging for prospective graduate students.

34:15 Brenda: I do want to mention that one of the points I brought up was that, and maybe this is just using a rivalry to my advantage, but you know, UT Austin and the University of Oklahoma are rivals in football. And UT Austin has a policy that, if you’re an out-of-state student and you come in to Texas with a scholarship from Texas, like if you won a scholarship in Texas, then the University waives your out-of-state tuition. And so, I presented that to the director and I said, you know, UT Austin does this, do you guys do anything like this? And I think that was what helped, you know, is that I had kind of done my research and I was like, you know, this is something another university is doing. Can you guys do it? And they said yes.

34:58 Emily: That’s a great example as well of like sharing of best practices. Hey, these other people have found this solution over here. Sometimes it helps to open their mind. Oh, well, maybe we could find this similar solution. Absolutely.

Money Mindset

35:09 Emily: So, you mentioned, you know, you’ve taken a pretty substantial income cut to pursue the PhD. Are there any other ways that taking this step in your career has impacted your path towards financial independence?

35:23 Brenda: Yeah, like I said, it’s probably a little bit of a setback numbers-wise and on the spreadsheet, but I feel that it’s so valuable to me personally and professionally and in my development as a person, as a researcher, as a scientist, as a nurse. You know, I’m just being challenged to think in ways that I never did before. And my practice in primary care became kind of monotonous and, you know, unfortunately, there wasn’t very much motivating me forward. And I feel totally different now. You know, even though sometimes I’m overwhelmed to learn new things, it’s so cool to like see yourself grow in ways that you never thought you could. And financially like, okay, maybe I’m taking like a $50 or $60,000 per year cut. But in the course of my life, like is three years really going to <laugh> matter that much, you know? And how much more will my life be enriched by having this degree? Like what doors will it open for me, whether they’re monetary or not is not really the point for me anymore. And that’s something that I was able to achieve in my twenties, right? Like that I set myself up to where, whether I make $50,000 or $150,000, what matters most to me now is that I’m happy, that I’m fulfilled, that I’m challenged, that I enjoy the people I work with, that I genuinely feel that I’m making a difference.

36:54 Emily: And it’s just so like gratifying to hear that, you know, the work you did on your finances in your twenties, both before and after discovering the FIRE movement, set you up to have this excellent financial experience during the PhD. Now, part of that is your field, and this is normal and so forth, this fantastic scholarship, you got all of that. But part of that is just, you know, when I was listening to some of your other podcast interviews, I was thinking that you just sound so like, calm about your finances. Like you just sound so like relaxed about them, which is a very different energy than what I give off sometimes, and like other people who I listen to, or interview on the podcast. But that is on the back of all the work that you did in your twenties to lead up to this point.

37:37 Emily: And so, you get to be relaxed because you have this net worth, you have your properties, you have your house hack, and you have this fantastic income. And this is just something that I so wish that more PhD students could experience. Even a fraction of the experience that you’re having, right? Like maybe it’s having the reasonable income for a person in their twenties or thirties. Or maybe it’s, you know, having worked for a few years, building up a bit of a nest egg before taking that income cut the way you have. I just, I love hearing just your whole like, sort of disposition towards this.

38:09 Brenda: Yeah. And I think a lot of it is reorienting your mind to not have a scarcity mindset, right? To kind of have an abundance mindset, like I’m going to thrive and I’m going to find a great job after this. And like I said, I’m just gifted with a naturally positive disposition, but like, I don’t have any worries about what will happen after, because everything’s worked out so far. <Laugh> maybe that’s just because I’ve been so strategic, right? Maybe in some ways I could have relaxed a little bit, but I am very forward-looking, right? I’m always kind of thinking about the next thing. And I have to remind myself to live in the moment, too, but yeah. I think that most PhD students, like you said, undervalue themselves. And I think about my classmates alone. You know, I’m like, they’re so talented, they’re so smart. Some of them are doing this with kids, with a family, taking care of their parents, with a job. And I’m just like, those are skills, right? Like those are highly marketable skills. Like just getting through the program with life the way it is is a crazy good skill. So, I really appreciate that you encourage people to, you know, maybe do some inward thinking about how can I monetize these things that just come naturally to me now in this stage of my life?

What is Coast FI?

39:40 Emily: You said a couple of minutes ago that, well, it doesn’t really matter if I make $50,000 or $150,000 a year. It’s going to be okay. It’s going to work out. That reminded me of the term Coast FI, a particular version of FIRE. Do you think about Coast FI? Would you describe yourself as Coast FI? Let’s define that for the listener.

39:59 Brenda: Yeah. I think traditionally, Coast FI means that your retirement is set, even if you don’t invest another dollar. I wouldn’t say that I don’t need to keep investing. I think I do. But I don’t really see myself retiring early in the traditional like FIRE sense because I have, A) A very useful skill that’s highly needed in this country. B) I speak Spanish, which is really useful in my part of the country. C) I’m just such a busybody. Like I could never stop working, you know, <laugh> like, I just, when people talk about staying home, like with children, I’m like, I could never do that. I could have children, but I’m not staying home with them 100% of the time. So, yeah, Coast FI for me just means that I have the financial flexibility to choose something that means something to me, as opposed to just a means to an end, to like pay my bills. And a part of that has also been keeping my expenses low. But the other part is, like you said, everything I did to set myself up in my twenties. And, you know, a few years ago, I probably would’ve told you that I would quit working at 45. And now that I’ve been in the PhD program, I’m like, no, there’s so much to do. There’s no way I could cut off 15 or 20 years off my career, you know?

41:26 Emily: That’s so interesting that you described earlier kind of finding, getting into like a lull in your career. Like you weren’t so stimulated. And I think that some people, like you did, would see FIRE, the potential to retire early, as the solution to that. And you did, but you also found another solution, which is, you know, taking your career in a slightly different direction, going down the academic path. And you found that reinvigoration there. And now you have kind of choices on both fronts. You have many career options, you have many financial options, to work, to not work, to work in a capacity that other people would not be able to, perhaps, because they hadn’t maybe had all these, you know, made all these decisions in their twenties and so forth. So, kind of the world is your oyster really <laugh> once you finish this program.

42:09 Brenda: Yeah. And things have come up during the PhD program. I don’t know if it’s because of the PhD program, but for example, I was a volunteer vaccinator for a local community center that was giving out COVID-19 vaccines every three weeks. And I was just consistently going, because I just wanted to help my community. And then they reached out to me about being the clinical consultant for their community center, because it was part of their grant. It would help their grant application if they had someone, you know, whose name they could put down, and they offered to pay me for that as well. That was an income source I forgot to tell you about. So, they pay me $500 a month, and I basically like attend some meetings and answer questions about COVID, about the vaccine, about what to do if this or that. And that was something I never would’ve thought I would do. You know? And it’s just like kind of a result of just saying yes, like I was like, well, I don’t see clinical consultant on my resume yet. <Laugh> but I guess I’ll do it. You just tell me what to do and I’ll show up, you know?

43:17 Emily: That comes from having that financial margin in your life and the time margin, right? To be able to say yes to, at first unpaid, but then later look what it turned into, you know, opportunities, which is something I could certainly <laugh> learn from.

Post-PhD Plans

43:29 Emily: Okay. So let’s talk a slight bit more about post-PhD plans. You mentioned earlier, you know, you have a few different career paths that you might choose among. What are you thinking?

43:40 Brenda: So, the idea of working in industry, or like the pharmaceutical area appeals to me because every pharmaceutical company has a medical affairs division in which they have doctoral-level prepared clinicians or pharmacists, which kind of serve as the bridge between the scientists creating the drug or the device and the prescribers out in the world. And so, that’s actually a really lucrative option. Like I know a couple people who do it and they make about $170,000 plus bonuses. So, they’re making like $200,000 a year. So, if I wanted money, that’s what I would do. <Laugh> which I’m not above saying that I want money. Okay. <laugh> so if that job came up, I would definitely consider it. Then there’s obviously the traditional route of pursuing some kind of tenure-track research career in academia. I’m kind of iffy on that. I don’t know that it’s the best use of my strengths. I’m definitely a people person. I’m an extrovert. I can do writing and I can write grants, and I could potentially, you know, try to prove myself to the NIH for the rest of my life <Laugh> to try to get research money, but I’m not sure that I want that.

45:03 Brenda: And then, I could do a blend of clinical practice and teaching where I just teach as an adjunct and I maintain my clinical practice. That’s kind of what I was doing before the PhD. So, I’m not sure that I would really be maximizing what I learned in the PhD if I went back to that. And then there’s a postdoc if I do want pursue research and I just want to get into someone else’s work and see what they’re doing, and maybe that’ll make me more excited about a tenure-track career. And then I was also looking at the National Clinician Scholars Program, which is kind of like a subset of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. And that’s a program at six campuses all over the country in which you basically get more education on health policy and organizational change. And most of the graduates go on to work at like the Department of Health or Health and Human Services or the CDC or some kind of federal agency where policy is happening. So, that’s probably one of my top ones. Pharma’s one of my top ones, and teaching in a, non-research, like very little research, that’s probably my third one.

46:11 Emily: Yeah. Well, hopefully, you have all of those things on the table once you get towards your graduation. And like you said, money could play a role in your decision, or maybe you’ll be following, you know, what seems most interesting to you. And again, the position that you’re in affords you those options. So, it’s wonderful to hear. And I think you said earlier, you know, you’re probably not going to be idle, right? Even once you achieve financial independence, however you want to define that. It sounds like you expect to have a long career, which is, once you’ve invested in something like a PhD program, it’s very, I think, worthwhile to keep your skills out there and keep, you know, working for your communities you’ve said so far. Yeah. Anything else you want to add about what you envision your life to change or not change? Like after you achieve financial independence?

46:57 Brenda: I think as a woman and as someone in their early thirties, you know, one of the big factors in deciding what I do is like, if I want to start a family, and what career option would be most conducive to that. And like you said, I have options, but like women have to think about that more. And especially in academia or in science, like you don’t want to be put on the mommy track, right? So, that’s also something I consider like if I were to have children, would it be right away after the PhD? Would I settle into another job? Like give it a year or two? I’m going to be 33 in September. Like what about my, you know, what about my fertility? Like, there are so many things to think about. And I think that’s very real for a lot of women in academia, right? It’s like juggling your human babies and the baby of your career, which is your research or whatever you’re working on post-PhD.

48:00 Emily: Absolutely. And another thing that having a strong financial position just puts you in a strong position to decide about. If you want to take an extra long maternity leave that’s unpaid, but you have a job to go back to, well, maybe that’s going to be, you know, the best situation for you, or maybe not. Maybe it’ll be a different decision, but whatever you do, I mean, having money gives you options. I say that over and over again, it just gives you options. And that’s really what you have now, which is so delightful to hear.

Where Can People Find You?

48:24 Emily: So, if people want to hear more from you, where can they find you?

48:29 Brenda: I’m on Twitter @almostbrenda, like the word almost, and then my name, almost Brenda. And that’s also my Instagram handle and my email address at Gmail, almostbrenda@gmail.com. I’m on LinkedIn. That’s linkedin.com/in/bolmosfnp for family nurse practitioner. And I’d love to connect with people. Even if, you know, even if you just want to talk about how to improve your finances, I know Emily, you’re a great resource for that. And I’ve been in the Community forums there too. But if you’re interested in coming on our podcast, I cohost Minority Millennial Money which is on Apple and Spotify and all of the platforms. We love to have people come on and we talk through their finances with them and see what they could do better. So yeah, I’m easily reachable. I’m all over the internet. <Laugh>

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

49:26 Emily: Wonderful. I hope you’ll have a few people follow up with you from this. Okay. I’m going to conclude with the question that I always ask my guests at the end of interviews, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

49:44 Brenda: I would say it would be to disassociate your self-worth from your net worth, right? Because although I’m in a particularly advantageous position, I know how difficult it must be for people who are not in this position and are looking forward to those days when they get to earn a higher living. And you know, you’re already undervaluing your skills. You’re already in places that may be toxic and not supportive. Like, the very least you could do is like not value yourself based on what’s in your bank account. <Laugh>. And also, if you have the ability to keep investing, like to not lose time, because time is money in the market, right? So, anything you can throw at it is super helpful.

50:32 Emily: Great messages to end on. Brenda, thank you so much for this delightful interview!

50:36 Brenda: Yeah. Thank you!

Outtro

50:42 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student Advocates for Higher Stipends Using Cost of Living Data

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In this episode, Emily interviews Alex Parry, a sixth-year graduate student at Johns Hopkins in the history of medicine. Alex is a strong advocate for increasing stipends both in his department and at Hopkins broadly and is deeply involved with the grad student unionization movement. Alex and some colleagues recently released the results of a study of stipends vs. the living wage for about a dozen peer institutions to Hopkins, and he explains in detail the methodology of the study and the patterns that they found, making a case for the urgency to increase stipends at virtually all US universities. Emily and Alex discuss the benefits of this approach vs. how PhDStipends.com collects data. Alex shares a powerful concluding message on the need for collective action among graduate students.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

S12E7 Image: This Grad Student Advocates for Higher Stipends Using Cost of Living Data

Teaser

00:00 Alex: But ultimately, our ability to get what we need as adults and as employees of these universities done is contingent on what kind of pressure we are able to bring to bear. And what data we’re able to bring to bear. And the data are only a starting point, right? They provide the talking points you need, they provide the evidence you need. They provide the ability to do the negotiations, right? But ultimately, we will succeed or fail collectively. And we will succeed or fail on the base of our ability to sort of band together to demand what we rightfully deserve.

Introduction

00:37 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and the founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 12, Episode 7, and today my guest is Alex Parry, a sixth-year graduate student at Johns Hopkins in the history of medicine. Alex is a strong advocate for increasing stipends, both in his department and at Hopkins broadly, and is deeply involved with the grad student unionization movement. Alex and some colleagues recently released the results of a study of stipends vs. the living wage for about a dozen peer institutions to Hopkins, and he explains in detail the methodology of the study and the patterns that they found, making a case for the urgency to increase stipends at virtually all U.S. universities. Alex and I discuss the benefits of this approach vs. how PhDStipends.com collects data. Alex shares a powerful concluding message on the need for collective action among graduate students.

02:01 Emily: If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my set of Wealthy PhD Workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Our next live discussion and Q&A call is on Wednesday, August 17th, 2022. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s12e7/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Alex Parry.

Would You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:23 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Alex Parry. He is a rising sixth-year graduate student at Johns Hopkins in the history of medicine. And we have a really valuable conversation coming up for you because we are talking about stipends and how to increase them, and the advocacy work that Alex is doing. We are recording this by the way in May, 2022. I know it’s going to be out a few months later. So, just for context, that’s where we are. Alex, would you please introduce yourself further to the listeners?

03:53 Alex: Sure. So, as it was already stated, I’m a rising sixth-year in the History of Medicine Department at John Hopkins. I work specifically on the history of consumer product safety and home accidents in the United States from about 1920 to 1980. And I’m also one of the organizers with Teachers and Researchers United (TRU) which is the currently unrecognized graduate student union at Johns Hopkins. So, one of many people who’s trying to push here and at other universities for increases to our stipends to accommodate a quickly accelerating rise in the cost of living.

Teachers and Researchers United (TRU) History

04:26 Emily: Yes. So, let’s hear more about that unionization movement right now. So, it’s currently unrecognized. Can you give us a little bit of the recent history, and where you’re hoping to go in the near future?

04:35 Alex: Yeah, absolutely. So, TRU has been around since roughly 2014. It started initially at the arts and sciences campus at Hopkins and was focused primarily on parental leave for graduate students as well as to try and increase healthcare benefits, particularly making sure that all graduate students had access to dental care and to vision care. Since then, the union has sort of grown and sort of formalized. And right now, we’re currently in the midst of an ongoing recognition campaign trying to basically work through the National Labor Relations Board or NLRB to try and seek an official union election at Hopkins. So, we’re hoping to basically have a unit that will encompass all PhD students at the university. So, sort of regardless of what division or campus people are located at, which is about 3,000 PhD students altogether. And we’re currently in the midst of trying to build up our core of organizers, have a lot of conversations with other graduate students at the university about things that are working for them and things that aren’t, in the hope of then sort of staging to basically a card petition with the NLRB sometime over the next couple of years.

How to Become an Officially-Recognized Union at a University

05:44 Emily: Okay. And walk me through this because my university was not unionized at the time. There was not even a movement when I was there. So, you basically gain enough support from the people who would be part of the union on campus through this card campaign. What happens next? The NLRB is involved, but then how does the university ultimately recognize the union?

06:04 Alex: Sure. So, there are sort of two main pathways to get to an officially-recognized union at a university, especially for a private university. Either the university can voluntarily recognize you, say that enough graduate students support this, that we’re just basically going to acknowledge your presence and then sort of work towards a contract from there. Most universities don’t take that path because they’re sort of concerned about having to bargain with graduate students. So, what ends up typically happening is, and this was recently reaffirmed by the NLRB over the last year or so, but if one is trying to seek an election through the NLRB, what one does is you can submit a petition to the NLRB to basically arbitrate an election at your campus when you have signatures from approximately 30% or more of the bargaining unit. Most unions will aim for a higher number than that because you don’t want to sort of rely on a third of the people at the university to 1) be a reliable indicator of how much people want a union, or 2) basically, one typically expects to have a more difficult time in the actual in-person election, which is what we’ll follow if the NLRB accepts your petition.

07:14 Alex: Because typically when you’re just signing the initial petition, you can basically do that remotely. So, people can just sign a digital card. During the actual election, typically those are done in person, which means that it’s harder to turn people out. And there, you’re looking for basically a bare majority of the voters. So, ordinarily, people will aim for more like 50% of the entire bargaining unit when they submit a petition to NLRB, and then after that, an election follows. If the election is successful, then you would then sit down with the university administration and basically negotiate directly over a contract.

Winning an NLRB Election

07:48 Emily: Okay. So, if it’s gone through the NLRB for this like official card campaign, then the university has to recognize the union at that point. Is that right?

07:56 Alex: Yeah, that’s correct. If NLRB hosts an election and the sort of proposed union wins, then the university is obligated to negotiate in good faith. So, there are various mechanisms that then both the university and then the proposed union will use to sort of conduct negotiations. Typically, they’ll have like labor lawyers and/or sort of like corporate lawyers involved. And you’ll sort of haggle over the details. A really good example of what this looks like as ongoing right now is at MIT. They’ve just won their election earlier this year. They’re currently in the midst of negotiations which started sometime late April to the beginning of this month. Those are likely to extend for another several months after this.

08:39 Alex: So probably, they won’t have a contract ratified or least put up to a vote because after you’ve had their bargaining committee come up with a contract, you then send it back to the base to all of the membership, to see if people actually approve of the contract that’s been written. So, sometime, probably this fall, maybe this winter, MIT will finish negotiating a contract, will send it back to everyone to basically vote on, and then if a bare majority approves of the contract, then that will sort of be the first contract for MIT’s graduate workers.

Shift to Stipends Advocacy

09:10 Emily: Okay. Thank you so much for explaining that process to me. One other follow-up question. You said when the union at Hopkins was originally introduced as an idea, back in 2014, they had concerns about leave and about vision and dental insurance. But you mentioned that you’re now more focused on stipends. So, were those initial concerns like fulfilled in some way over the intervening years? And why are stipends the focus now?

09:36 Alex: Yeah, both great questions. Sort of to answer the first one, most of the things that TRU has been advocating for, eventually we were able to win. So, at this point, at least at the school of arts and sciences, vision and dental, they’re not perfect coverage. I don’t want to give the impression that it’s phenomenal, but they do have paid for health insurance, dental, and vision now, as well as parental leave at the Homewood campus. So, overall TRU has been relatively effective in terms of getting sort of these smaller asks dealt with, things that are relatively lower cost, and also things where Hopkins had sort of fallen behind many of its peers. One of the reasons this campaign on healthcare had been so successful is that, one, Hopkins is a world-renowned health provider and the hospital is literally attached to the university.

10:24 Alex: So, it was kind of a bad look that people weren’t getting the kind of healthcare coverage that they needed. But the other sort of major factor there is that other universities that Hopkins considers its peers had provided much better coverage than Hopkins was. That same sort of rationale is part of the reason why stipends have now come to the fore. If you look at Hopkins vis a vis some of its peers, one, of private universities, like private R1 universities, it has one of the lowest raw PhD stipends of almost any school. If you adjust for the local cost of living, it ranks basically in the bottom third regardless of division. So if you look at, you know, engineering, stipends versus medical students stipends versus like biomedical, I should say, biomedical PhD stipends, or social sciences, humanities stipends, more or less across the board, Hopkins ranks the bottom third.

11:16 Alex: The other sort of major reason why we’ve shifted to stipends, in addition to, again, this sort of increasing gap between Hopkins and its self-described peers, is that a lot of us have been hit very, very hard by the inflation post-pandemic. And many people were also affected financially by the time that they were trying to deal with the pandemic, whether that’s in terms of childcare, inability to use research funds that people had earmarked to go on research travel that couldn’t be deferred or delayed. In addition to basically just as soon as the pandemic was starting to change to the current moment we’re in, obviously the pandemic is not over, but we seem to have entered a new way of dealing with it from public health terms and in terms of the community. Since then, rents have skyrocketed, grocery prices skyrocketed. And because of that people, who used to feel a little more comfortable with their stipend here are really starting to feel pretty significant financial pressure.

12:16 Alex: So, the other reason that we really started to push for this at the school-wide level and university-wide level is because we’ve been hearing from many of our members that people are both feeling less able to pay their bills month to month, and are also becoming more and more financially precarious. Where if someone has an unexpected expense, like a major medical bill, or like last summer my car battery died and I had to replace all of my tires all at once. That thousand dollars was, was a pretty substantial hit for me. So, these are the kind of things that we’ve been concerned about, and this is why we’ve brought this to the administration. It’s something that really needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

Departmental Advocacy

12:54 Emily: And you’ve been speaking about you know, school-wide and university-wide initiatives, but I understand that you’ve also been working just within your department on advocacy. And I really was happy to hear the example earlier of some, I guess, some success with advancing the benefits that are offered at Hopkins. Not even necessarily through unionization, but just through bringing awareness to it. And Hopkins realizing, as you said, it’s falling behind its peer institutions. So, you know, advocacy can be successful even before unionization is totally in effect or even without that being in effect. So, not that that’s not also worthwhile, but that’s a long process and there can still be wins along the way. So, I want to hear also from you about what you’ve been doing, like in your department, specifically.

13:39 Alex: Yeah. And I hundred percent agree. Like, you know, obviously I am a card-carrying union member. I, you know, really want us to have an election to have a contract, but one thing that’s important for people to know is that sort of just the gradual growth of pressure that accompanies unionization, where you’re sort of talking with your peers, gathering together, working as a group, is often enough to get small wins. Those wins aren’t necessarily protected because you have a contract, right? And those wins are not necessarily of the degree or magnitude that one would hope for in a contract. But there is something to be said for just doing the work initially will get you somewhere and you can just get further than with unionization. So, I think it’s definitely sort of a both-and situation, not an either-or kind of situation.

14:26 Alex: In terms of what we’ve done specifically in our department. One thing that initially brought stipends to our attention even before inflation started spiraling even more out of control, is I’m part of an interdivisional working group that brings together representatives from the student government associations, the recognized ones at the university, as well as the union, to sort of talk together to share information and to make sure that everyone’s on the same page about what advocacy issues are pressing to the community. And also sort of how then to mobilize both institutional channels, talking directly to the administration and sort of like more grassroots advocacy-style channels, more militant-style organizing. So, we were having one of these conversations and realized that apparently the School of Medicine as a whole has a minimum stipend that at that point was approximately $34,900 a year. At that time, folks in my department were making $30,500.

15:23 Alex: So, we were a little bit confused and concerned about the fact that we seemed to be making $4,000 roughly less than our peers while working in the same school and, you know, being under the same umbrella. And everything we saw online was indicating at least that this should have been an across the board minimum. So, we went to our department and asked basically why this discrepancy had appeared, or why this was the case, and didn’t get phenomenally helpful answers. And so we went then to speak with the Dean of the school, Peter Espenshade, who works on basically like graduate student affairs and graduate student research at the School of Medicine. And eventually what sort of came out is that our stipends in particular were tied to the stipend of the school of arts and sciences for a series of sort of complicated and frankly not super compelling <laugh> historical reasons.

16:18 Alex: So, this kind of got us to think more about the fact that, one, not only are all graduate students at Hopkins being underpaid relative to the local cost of living, but also there are significant and often sort of inexplicable disparities between programs and departments at the university. There really is no good reason why social science and humanities students are paid less than hard science students at the school of arts and sciences, and why those students are then paid less than the biomedical science students and the engineers at this university. And then at the very sort of bottom of the economic food chain here, people at the School of Education and people at the School of Public Health have even lower stipends. And at the School of Public Health, some students aren’t even guaranteed stipends at all. In which case they have to basically perform hourly work.

17:06 Alex: So, part of what this advocacy looked like was, you know, going through institutional channels, sort of talking to both sympathetic faculty and our department chair and our DGS. Then sort of like going to Dean Espenshade, being then redirected to the School of Arts and Sciences, where we were able to basically lobby successfully both folks from my department, as well as other members of TRU and other folks at the School of Arts and Sciences to get all of our stipends increased to $33,000. So, it’s a substantial raise, $2,500, at least for my department. But it’s also still not close to enough. The estimated cost of living for Baltimore as of this previous December is over $38,000, which means that even after this raise, we’re looking at a $5,000 shortfall.

TRU Study Comparing Stipends Across Institutions

17:51 Emily: Yeah. So, you can pump your arms and say, “Okay, great! Like good job, partial win here, but like, let’s keep on going. Like, people are listening to us.” And yeah, that’s great. Okay, well, let’s talk more about this study that you did. So, I found you because of something that you shared on Twitter that got a ton of traction. So, I wanted to talk to you more about it.

18:12 Alex: Yeah. So, essentially what I and some other folks from the TRU data and resource committee have spent some time doing was, one, trying to find basically stipend figures for particularly biomedical science and social science and humanities programs at a few sort of select institutions. And then comparing those stipends with the cost of living estimated by the MIT Living Wage Calculator for a given county. And then what we did is basically to calculate the raw difference between those things, and then to calculate basically the percentage of the living wage that a stipend would cover in those areas. Some first major results, then we could talk more about method and why we did this this way and not some other set of ways. One, we found that only two schools actually did meet or exceed the local cost of living out of the set that we used. Out of our sample, only Brown and Princeton actually exceeded the cost of living. Every other institution, including big names like UPenn, Yale, MIT, and Cornell as well as Harvard, Columbia, and others, were falling anywhere from about, you know, 98-99%, so close to local cost of living, all the way down to closer to like three-fourths, like 75% of the local cost of living.

19:34 Alex: And basically, our goal here was to demonstrate that stipends, while they have risen and have been rising, one, are not keeping up with inflation. So, even though a lot of these schools have been getting somewhat regular raises, the raises have not been enough, especially in recent years to cover that inflation. And that sort of given that the MIT Living Wage Calculator is really only supposed to cover bare essentials, not sort of the comfortable lifestyle, not, you know, it explicitly says in a technical documentation that it doesn’t account any eating out, basically no savings, you know, no travel. And some of those things, at least travel, often graduate students are expected to pay for out of pocket if they need to do it for their own work. Unless they’re able to get an external grant or have access to enough research money to cover things in full, which is pretty rare.

20:27 Alex: Given all of that, it was also important for us to note that the MIT Living Wage Calculator data is supposed to be sort of a minimum standard of living that is not the poverty line. As we all know, the poverty line in the U.S. has fallen well below what is even reasonably livable in basically any part of the country. And so, this is an alternative measure, and graduate students are consistently getting paid less than that sort of bare minimum standard of living.

20:53 Emily: Yes. I also point people to the Living Wage Calculator, which is an incredible resource. It covers every county and every major metro area in the country. So, you can look up, basically depending on your family size, how much this sort of, again, just to pay for basic expenses, I’m not talking about poverty level, but just basic expenses, basic housing, basic food, basic transportation, healthcare, these kinds of things, what it would cost for a single adult. That’s what I usually reference for graduate students. But there’s also like if you have a number of children or if you have a partner, et cetera. I love referencing this, especially for prospective graduate students who haven’t yet moved to the city that they’re going to be attending and haven’t yet experienced what the costs are. This is one way to give them kind of a touch point.

21:36 Emily: But as you said, what I also very much try to emphasize to them, and I don’t want the listener to miss this, is this is only talking about necessary expenses. There’s no saving included in this calculation. There are no discretionary expenses included. It’s just to run a baseline lifestyle. And as you said, not even those numbers are being met at the institutions that you studied. I do want to sort of reiterate, because I think this was maybe missed on Twitter, but like you were only looking at, it sounded like maybe a dozen different institutions. Private institutions, R1 institutions, maybe all in the Northeast to Mid-Atlantic. Is that right?

22:11 Alex: Not just Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, but only a handful of schools for other regions.

22:16 Emily: Yeah, so like, and I just sort of know from experience that the situation is worse at other places outside of private universities, outside of R1 universities. So, even this bleak picture is sort of like the best picture of the data that probably you could have selected.

Commercial

22:34 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2022 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15, 2022. Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives.

23:54 Emily: If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. Even better, recommend that your grad school, grad student association, postdoc office, etc. sponsor the workshop on behalf of yourself and your peers. I offer a discount on these bulk purchases. Please point the potential sponsor to PF for PhDs dot com slash sponsor Q E tax. Now back to our interview.

Resources for Comparing University Stipends

25:00 Emily: What I would love to talk more about right now is how you found the stipends. So, the Living Wage is very easy to work with, a calculator from MIT, but how did you find the stipends to compare it to at these different institutions?

25:13 Alex: Yeah, so it was not super easy. A lot of universities do not make their stipend data particularly public, which is one reason why we’ve also used data from your basically database of self-reported data, PhD Stipends, which is, you know, a great sort of way to get self-reported information about what people are making in different departments at different places. We found that when we were working with the administration to try and lobby for increased wages that self-reported data weren’t as compelling to them as having something where we could point to an official university communication. So, all the data that we’ve collected have been sourced directly from offer letters, from university websites, or from internal university correspondence. So, you know, announcements of raises, for example, that went out to a graduate student listserv.

26:04 Alex: This has its cost and benefits. On the bright side, what this means is that it’s very, very difficult or impossible for administrators or other folks who are sort of less willing to provide increased stipends to sort of just basically wave the results away as badly reported self-reported data, or as sort of potentially not being an accurate reflection of all the quote unquote benefits that accrue to a graduate student. On the flip side, it means that we were then very limited in the amount of data we were able to collect. We’re a small team, it’s about four or five of us who work on this. And all of us are obviously also full-time graduate students. So, this is kind of a spare hours what little free time we have kind of project.

26:51 Alex: And so, that’s part of the reason why, as you’d mentioned that we really limited ourselves to the schools that Hopkins like self-describes as its peer institutions, which means R1, private, mostly Northeast, right? Which also as you pointed out means that this data is looking at the schools that should in theory provide the best of the best in terms of stipends. And the data looks substantially worse if you start looking at schools that, and there are many of them, that pay closer to like $16,000 a year, in some cases, in large metro areas. So, things could be better <laugh>.

27:29 Emily: Yeah, I’m really glad you brought up, like, so my website, my database PhDStipends.com. I say mine, but I just put it up. People can use it how they want, they can enter what they want into it, because it’s, as you said, it’s all crowdsourced and self-reported. We have thought about different ways to sort of verify like what people are reporting, the way that you’ve done for your study. But as you said, it’s very labor-intensive, and you’re asking people to give up very personal information. In my case, to an anonymous website, which is like out there and what protections do they have, you know? So, I think it really does, these are like complimentary approaches, I think. Because PhD Stipends can give you kind of a starting point. And that’s all it’s really meant to be, is like the more people use it, the more people enter, the clearer the picture gets. Yeah, you’re going to have some people write in typos or like people who are clearly making things up, but it’s a starting point. And you’ve, you know, jumped off from that point and done much more in-depth verification, which is wonderful.

28:23 Emily: But as you said, the data set only get so big when you go that route because it takes so much willingness on the part of the participants to let you have access to this information and then for the volunteers to verify it. So, I love that approach you took, and I know there are some other people working, you know, with similar approaches at different universities and different fields around the country. It’s all great work. And I love it. And that’s why I wanted to have you on to talk about this, but yes, I totally can understand. Some people do use PhD Stipends for advocacy work, but I think it’s, as I was just saying, a starting point rather than like the end all be all of what the data can be.

Stipend vs. Living Wage Patterns

29:00 Emily: Are there any other patterns that you want to share with us when you were doing the study regarding the stipends versus living wage?

29:08 Alex: Sure. So, one other thing that we’ve tried to do, and this is still sort of in the early stages, we’ve only gotten a few schools’ data collected so far for this, but we’re also trying to compile some longitudinal data. So, the table at the beginning of the Twitter thread and things that I think, you know, PhD Stipends sort of attempts to do is basically primarily to give like a one year snapshot. Like this is kind of like where things were in this single year without sort of then trying to do the detailed work of trying to figure out exactly what that means when you start accounting for inflation or especially inflation and cost of living in the local area. But one thing that we’ve been trying to do with the data set is now to compile using sort of both either sort of synchronic pictures at different moments of what the MIT data look like, or using right now, we’ve just basically been using data from the consumer price index to look at inflation over time and then tracking the stipends backwards for about five to six years.

30:03 Alex: What we have been noticing is that for almost all these schools, if you look at the, at the four, five-year trend, the overall real wage is declined. So, not only is the situation now that stipends are below the local cost of living, but in fact, we were making more in real terms five years ago than we are now. So, a lot of schools have been sort of touting the fact that they have increased stipends or are trying to increase stipends either, you know, a couple years back, or even now in response to inflation, but we still haven’t even recouped the amount that we’ve lost over the last few years, let alone actually gotten to the point where graduate students are making a livable wage. So, that’s another major trend. This long-term decline is something that we want to do more research on and sort of see how consistent it is, and also try and assess this magnitude in a more systematic way.

Effect of Unionization on History of Stipends

30:53 Emily: Yes. Wow. I guess also another question that I have, and I don’t know if you’ve looked into this at all, is to see what effect unionization and unionization movements have had on that history of stipends, because I would guess that, at the point when a union contract is first ratified, there’s probably going to be a substantial jump in at least some of the stipends at these universities. Maybe they’ve been falling behind in recent years and that jump helps catch them up a little bit, but it may be these sort of not gradual changes, but very abrupt changes when certain outside circumstances like that occur.

31:29 Alex: Yeah. I mean, I think what I’ve noticed from schools that have recently gotten contracts or have been, you know, in the process of getting contracts for a few years is, typically, if you look at the year when the contract is ratified, even if it doesn’t bring them up into sort of like the absolute upper echelon of schools in terms of the pay given to graduate workers, in many cases, because there’s been a many-year delay that added to the pressure that led to the unionization campaign to begin with. A lot of those schools have a very substantial percentage raise. So, if you look at the stipend table that was on the Twitter thread, you’ll notice that Columbia is near the very bottom in terms of relation to local cost of living.

32:08 Alex: Columbia would be even further behind, like closer to, at the moment, humanities and social science programs there are paid about 75% of the cost of living for New York. Without the most recent raise, which was substantial, I think like a 10% raise or something along those lines, you’d be looking at closer to like 68%. So, it’s important to note, when sort of interpreting the effect of unionization, yeah, there are some schools like Brown. Brown is the best-paid program relative to cost of living in the country. And a big part of that is the fact that they have a very strong militant union that has done a lot of great work. But even for schools that you might turn around and say like, well, how is it then that Harvard and Columbia, which have unions, don’t rank higher? There, it’s just a factor of 1) that the cost of living in Boston and New York is so high, and 2) that they actually are getting raises that are outpacing the annual raise of other places, but because they were so far behind to begin with, those additional raises or that super added raise is only just bringing them sort of further out of the gutter, so to speak, not necessarily actually again, launching them into an above cost of living style wage.

33:18 Alex: So, those are the things I would sort of initially note. I guess the last thing I would say about this is that one other effect that we’ve seen that’s happened a lot in unionized schools that is really important is that wages tend to get standardized across the school. And what that actually means in practice is that the folks at the lowest end of the income scale get pulled up to the highest. I’ve heard concerns or rumors that graduate students are afraid that if a union contract passes that wages will “meet in the middle.” That has literally never happened in a graduate student unionization campaign. In all cases, what’s basically happened is, if schools of public health or humanities and social science students at the bottom end of the income scale, they get boosted either all the way up to where the hard science students are, or get boosted up to some arbitrarily set lower level. And we can talk more about the fact that hard science students are consistently paid more than humanities and social science students, and more than public health students. But regardless, the effect is raises for everybody, but really big raises for folks who are at the bottom.

Consideration of Non-Employee Stipends

34:23 Emily: Yeah. So good to hear. Very, very reassuring for anyone who has that concern, or like heard that rumor or anything. Something that has always interested me about these let’s say the stipends that universities claim that they pay their students, or like announcing, okay, everyone in this school is now going to be paid this baseline stipend, is that I believe it’s focused on people who have assistantships, usually. Because they are the employees of the university and that’s where the best and most consistent data comes from. But as you well know, there are many, many, many graduate students who are funded, not because of assistantships or employee positions, but through fellowships or training grants or other non-employee sources of funding. My understanding is that technically, if a union does come into place those people would not officially be part of the union when they have those types of positions, because they’re not employees, and unions are just for employees. But I think at some universities, they found a way to sort of include people who are non-employee graduate students in some of the benefits that may come about with a contract, like, you know, better health insurance, for example. Did you consider these non-employee stipends in your study at all? Or do you have any comments about how they might or might not be included in like these advocacy pushes?

35:43 Alex: Absolutely. So, it is a complicated question, sort of how external fellowships are factored into a bargaining unit effectively. Or how they would be folded or not folded into a filing union. One thing to keep in mind is that basically, if any of your revenue or any of your income is being given by the university, it doesn’t matter if you have an external fellowship, really. That seems to be the consensus that we’ve seen from previous cases. So, for a lot of training grants, especially at places like Hopkins, almost all graduate students are paid above the NRSA rate, which is basically the NIH training grant stipend level, which I think for this coming year is somewhere on the ballpark of $26,000, roughly.

36:27 Alex: At Hopkins, because most people on those grants are then paid a super added stipend on top of that to basically get them up to the School of Medicine level, we have a bunch of people who are on external money who actually would be a part of a final bargaining unit. And at least in our case, when we’re looking at School of Medicine stipends, they’re sort of equivalent across the board. There are places and there are some grants where that’s not the case, right? One of them is the NSF Graduate Research Fellowship program. Depending on what institution you’re at and how much money that’s valued at, in many cases that will come out to above whatever the university’s pay is. So, in those cases, many times during NLRB elections, those folks have been excluded, and actually they were recently excluded in the MIT election.

37:18 Alex: One thing that’s important to keep in mind, as you already indicated though, is that if we’re able to push for higher stipends for everybody, right? Then ideally <laugh> we’ll be able to push things above the GRFP rate, and/or make sure to apply external pressure to the GRFP so that it pays better as well. And obviously, our benefits are not often given through the external fellowships. Things like the healthcare access to library resources, additional research funds that are not controlled by a granting agency but are coming from your department from your institution, are still things that we can lobby for. Another thing that we’ve been pushing for at the School of Medicine that’s sort of along the same lines is to provide relocation funds for folks who are moving from other states or overseas to Baltimore.

38:05 Alex: So, those types of benefits, even if we can’t necessarily include someone explicitly in a contract, those benefits that apply to all graduate students enrolled in the program would sort of directly accrue even to those who are not sort of an official part of the bargaining unit and therefore sort of attached directly to stipend benefits. So, these are other things to consider when we’re talking about a unionization contract, we’re talking about benefits as we’ve already sort of been indicating. Stipends are one indicator and are, I think, the most important indicator, but things like healthcare coverage, access to research money, relocation money, things like childcare support. These are all also really important aspects of thinking about what a graduate student needs to survive and also sort of what is and is not made available by their institutions.

Look-Back Formula for Voting

38:58 Emily: Would someone who is, at the moment, not considered an employee of the university be able to sign a union card or vote on a contract? I ask this because at other points in their career as a graduate student, they may be an employee, and it may, you know, very well affect them at that point. But maybe at the moment those things are happening they’re not an employee. How does that work out?

39:20 Alex: Yeah, that’s another complicated question. The NLRB clearly does not think first and foremost of graduate students when they’re coming up with their policies, but they do actually have a workaround for this. The NLRB has something called a look-back formula. So, if you’re a graduate student who goes on and off of external fellowships, for example. So, just as a personal note, right? This spring I’ve been off of department funding. I’ve been using money from the Center for Injury Research and Policy at the School of Public Health. It’s internal to Hopkins, but it’s an external grant funded by the CDC. But for that period, I am not a W2 employee with Hopkins, right? When I’m teaching, I am. But when I’ve been on this fellowship and when I’ve been on, Hopkins provides to graduates in my department basically two years of what’s called fellowship funding, which essentially is just, you know, you’re paid without any TA or assistantship work requirements.

40:23 Alex: Obviously, we’re still working, right? We’re applying for grants, we’re still publishing papers, we’re going to conferences. We’re doing everything except for the teaching or assistantship stuff. So, I always find it a little funny that it’s called a fellowship as if it’s not work. We are actually still doing work, just different work, right? But the point being that, for folks who move on and off of different kinds of funding what the NLRB will say is like over the last, you know, two years or something, were you at any point being paid directly by the university? Especially if it was a W2 employee. And if the answer is yes during any of that period, you are eligible at that point to vote in the election. So, the other thing to, I guess, keep in mind along those lines is that, even if you’re technically receiving fellowship income from the university, so not from NSF or NIH or somewhere else, we’re pretty confident at this point, and again, the legal aspects of this are a little murky, but we’re pretty confident that for all those graduate students, they also count even if they’re not receiving a W2 and even if they’re not TAs or RAs in the same way that other people are. So, basically, if your paycheck is coming from the university, you can be pretty sure, or part of your paychecks coming from the university, you can be pretty sure you’d be included in the final bargaining unit.

41:40 Emily: It’s very interesting. I had not heard that update yet. So, I’m really glad that the NLRB has been examining the special case of graduate students to kind of figure out how to handle those. Because it is so common to switch on and off of external or internal or whatever, you know, employee, non-employee kind of statuses.

Best Practices for Advocacy

41:56 Emily: So, as like kind of takeaway messages for the listener, are there particular best practices that you have identified or put in place with respect to advocacy that you’d like to share with other graduate students, et cetera, who are trying to do the same on their campuses?

42:12 Alex: Yeah, I think one thing is, as we were talking about earlier, to be a little bit agnostic about sort of what approaches work. You know, you should try to talk to faculty, you should try to talk to the administration. Institutional channels sometimes will get the job done, right? However, that’s not always going to be the case. And especially when it’s something as dicey as stipends, where universities, many of them, I won’t say Hopkins is one, right? But many universities are relatively cash-strapped right now and are sort of deeply concerned about sort of their futures and how much money they have. And in situations like that, often, even if there is money out there to basically increase graduate student stipends or priorities need to be reshuffled at the level of the university budget, really the only way to do it is going to be talk to your colleagues. If you can, try to unionize and sort of work together.

43:00 Alex: I think the main thing that’s essential to both kinds of advocacy, whether you’re doing it within the institutional channels or outside of them, or some combination, is that graduate students really have to work together. You know, obviously faculty can be supportive, undergraduates can be supportive, administrators can be supportive, right? But ultimately, like our ability to get what we need as adults and as employees of these universities done is contingent on what kind of pressure we are able to bring to bear. And what data we’re able to bring to bear. And the data are only a starting point, right? They provide the talking points you need, they provide the evidence you need, they provide the ability to do the negotiations, right? But ultimately, we will succeed or fail collectively. And we will succeed or fail on the base of our ability to sort of band together to demand what we rightfully deserve.

43:48 Emily: Very strong message. Thank you.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

43:50 Emily: Alex, thank you so much for this incredible interview! It’s been wonderful to have you on. Glad to hear about all the wonderful work that you and your colleagues are doing. I’d like to finish up by asking you the question that I ask of all my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve already touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

44:12 Alex: I guess I would say to prospective students to, you know, choose wisely. Even a funded PhD does not mean that you’ll be really making the kind of money you’d be making without doing the PhD. So, you know, I think just having your eyes open about both what it means in terms of your financial future to get a PhD is important. And also, you know, also being aware that in some fields, a PhD will significantly improve your earnings potential and in others, it might not. And in some cases, it can even sort of be, frankly, a pathway to downward economic mobility. So, just think very carefully before doing a PhD.

44:53 Alex: For those who have already committed to it. And, you know, I don’t regret my PhD at all. I’ve found this a very intellectually rewarding experience and have really appreciated the chance I’ve had to both do my own research and to work with others, both on, you know history of medicine topics, but also on things like unionization. I’d say the big thing is join your union if there is one, and make sure again, to work with your colleagues. Figure out what people need to get through this degree. It’s a long slog, and it’s a very, very difficult job. But I’d say, you know, get together with your colleagues, make sure that you know, what you need and what they need, and do whatever you can to work together to achieve it.

45:33 Emily: Thank you so much, Alex, for joining me!

45:35 Alex: Thank you. That was really a pleasure!

Outtro

45:42 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student Advocates Individually and Collectively for Higher Stipends

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In this episode, Emily interviews Alyssa Hayes, a rising 4th-year graduate student in nuclear engineering at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. Alyssa is a first-generation college student who experienced food insecurity and other forms of financial precarity as an undergraduate. Now that she earns a stipend of approximately $45,000 per year and lives in a low cost of living city, she feels financially secure—and wants the same for all graduate students. To that end, Alyssa shares two advocacy approaches: 1) Ask for what you need. As a prospective graduate student, she negotiated for a top-up fellowship to be added to her assistantship stipend. 2) Share pay information with your peers across universities and use that data to collectively bargain for higher stipends in individual programs. Alyssa and her peers in nuclear engineering are currently gathering this data, including stipends, benefits, cost of living, and university and departmental ranking.

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Image for S12E5: This Grad Student Advocates Individually and Collectively for Higher Stipends

Teaser

00:00 Alyssa: I think that like all grad students should feel as comfortable as I feel in terms of my financial situation. I think that I make a fair wage, and maybe I’m biased because of my previous financial situation, but I personally have no complaints about the amount of money that I’m making right now. I feel supported by my advisor and by my department. I feel that I am valued for my labor. And I think that shows through how much they pay me. And I think that everybody should be able to feel that way about their department and about their advisor.

Introduction

00:44 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 12, Episode 5, and today my guest is Alyssa Hayes, a rising 4th-year graduate student in nuclear engineering at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. Alyssa is a first-generation college student who experienced food insecurity and other forms of financial precarity as an undergraduate. Now that she earns a stipend of approximately $45,000 per year and lives in a low-cost-of-living city, she feels financially secure—and wants the same for all graduate students. To that end, Alyssa shares two advocacy approaches: 1) Ask for what you need. As a prospective graduate student, she negotiated for a top-up fellowship to be added to her assistantship stipend. 2) Share pay information with your peers across universities and use that data to collectively bargain for higher stipends in individual programs. Alyssa and her peers in nuclear engineering are currently gathering this data, including stipends, benefits, cost-of-living, and university and departmental ranking. You won’t want to miss Alyssa’s powerful messages peppered throughout the episode!

02:30 Emily: Longtime listeners of the podcast will remember the interviews I’ve published with Sam Hogan, a mortgage originator specializing in graduate students and PhDs, an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs, and my brother. Several years ago, I told Sam how I’d heard over and over again about graduate students and PhDs being denied mortgage loans because of their unusual income sources and income history and asked him to look into the issue. Following that request, Sam actually developed quite an expertise in this area and is now the go-to mortgage originator for people with non-employee fellowship income. He even found a way around what we thought was an insurmountable barrier in the 3-year continuance requirement. If you’re considering buying a home, especially if you have non-W-2 income, I encourage you to reach out to Sam for a quote. He has a new website, which you can visit at PhDHomeLoans.com, or you can reach him on his cell phone, 540-478-5803. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s12e5/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Alyssa Hayes.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:56 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Alyssa Hayes. She is a rising fourth-year graduate student in nuclear engineering at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. And we have a lot to talk about in terms of like her pay and her money mindset. And I’m really excited for this conversation. So Alyssa, thank you so much for volunteering. And would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

04:16 Alyssa: Thank you for having me! Yeah. So, I’m currently at the University of Tennessee. I did my bachelor’s degree in the same field at the University of Illinois. My current work involves like, you know, fusion engineering, specifically. I do a lot of computational plasma boundary stuff. But yeah, I guess we’re not really talking about any of my technical work today. <Laugh>

Money Mindset Up Until Starting Grad School

04:38 Emily: No, but very related to your experience as a graduate student. So, let’s take it back a little bit and tell me about sort of what your childhood’s like, and specifically how it relates to money and how that sort of developed your money mindset through your childhood and through undergrad, up until you started graduate school.

04:58 Alyssa: Yeah. So, I come from a biracial family, and my father comes from a long line of Americans in the military where, you know, his family was very like blue-collar labor. Like there wasn’t as big of a push to go to college, especially during the time when my dad was growing up in the seventies. And my mom is an immigrant from the Philippines. And her family was not extremely wealthy in the Philippines. And they came here when she was younger to pursue a better life. And she currently works at Walmart and has been for like almost 20 years and has supported my three siblings and me through retail and fast food. So, I was the first person in my family to pursue college. And we lived in an area where we had a lot of, like, there was a lot of really good funding for the school system, even though we weren’t in the nicest part of town. There were other folks who were pretty well-to-do, so I took advantage of everything that I could at that high school. And I got a full ride at the University of Illinois to pursue nuclear engineering. I didn’t have a lot of financial security while I was there, but I didn’t have to worry too much about student debt or tuition or paying fees or anything like that.

Food Insecurity in Undergrad

06:18 Emily: That’s amazing. The full ride to college, and obviously you went after it, <laugh> starting in your earlier years. But tell me a little bit about like the discretion that you had over money. Like, were you budgeting or like, how did you manage it? How did you manage what money you had above that, you know, what’s paying for tuition and room and board and so forth?

06:39 Alyssa: Yeah. So, I was first of all, extremely food insecure and didn’t realize it until I entered grad school. Once a month, I went out to lunch with like a professor who like, he knew I was food insecure, even if I didn’t know I was food insecure, and he would like pay for my food and we would like go somewhere nice that I couldn’t afford to eat at. For the most part, like there were times when like either because I, you know, couldn’t afford to go out to eat as often, but didn’t have the time because I was so stressed out to like make food from home. I like skipped meals often when I was in undergrad. I was very cheap and frugal all the time. I was constantly like thinking about like, I am hungry all the time and like bringing, like, trying to bring snacks with me. Apples were my thing.

07:22 Alyssa: I brought apples everywhere because they were so easy to just grab and then eat on the go. And then it was mostly about trying to make money to pay the bills and to pay rent. My rent, like in undergrad was only like $450 a month. But I worked a minimum wage job in the like plasma lab on campus. And then I worked as a TA as well. So that added stress onto my undergrad. I wish that I didn’t have to have worked so hard in order to like pay to live while trying to be a student. But that’s what it was like. Luckily, I don’t have any student debt now, but I couldn’t really you know, spend the money that was granted for my tuition on, you know, myself or the ability to make ends meet.

08:14 Emily: Yeah. So, I sort of misspoke or misunderstood earlier. You had a full ride in terms of the education cost, but not your living expenses. So, you were working to pay all of your living expenses.

08:25 Alyssa: Yes.

08:25 Emily: Yes. Okay. So that is a little bit like graduate school in a sense, except you didn’t have like a job that you were given. You had to cobble together like multiple sources of income, it sounds like. And there’s more management. You were probably paid, you know, less than maybe the average graduate student is. So, that sounds really stressful.

08:43 Alyssa: I had a little bit of spillover for my scholarships that I had received. So like it paid for like tuition and fees plus a little bit of extra and then like that would go towards rent, but it wasn’t like enough.

Student Loans for Dorm Payment

08:55 Emily: Why didn’t you take out student loans during that time?

08:59 Alyssa: So, I did have to take out student loans during my freshman year to pay for the dorms. Because dorms are a scam. If anyone who’s like not currently in grad school is listening to this, dorms are a scam. Do not live in them longer than you have to. The university says it’s so that way you can you know, help get acclimated to the college experience, but that’s a lie. They’re trying to take your money. I had to take out student loans to pay for those. Other than that, I didn’t take out any other student loans because I was afraid of the debt like piling up. I knew that like one of the types of loans didn’t charge interest until you were done, but the other type of loan did. And I, you know, didn’t want that to accrue while I was in college.

09:38 Alyssa: And I knew that I like had done all my budgeting and I knew that I was able to work to pay for all my stuff. So, I just kind of like, you know, I didn’t think anything was like wrong with the way that I was living. I didn’t see any like problems with like being so frugal or so cheap or skipping meals or missing sleep and stuff. But like, I guess grateful now to past me that I didn’t do that because now I don’t have any student debt. I paid off what little loans I had in like six months. But I did have to like work a lot to get there. But I was also happy doing the work that I did. I enjoyed being a TA and I enjoyed working in a research lab. And honestly, I’m glad that I didn’t end up like working somewhere that didn’t have anything to do with nuclear engineering. So that way I was able to apply all of that to my career trajectory later on in grad school, by having that research experience.

Funding and Finances in Grad School

10:36 Emily: Yeah. This kind of goes to show you like how we aren’t even aware of our own beliefs around money and our own mindsets around money until we sort of consciously try to take a step outside and examine them. And I understand that you can say now, “Oh, past me, I didn’t even know at the time.” You can say things like that because you’ve now reached a new phase in your financial life, which is the graduate student phase. So, tell us about how you’re funded now and how your finances are going.

11:00 Alyssa: Yeah. So, when I was applying to grad schools, I applied to the University of Illinois where I originally wanted to stay because I really loved working for my advisor there. And I also applied to the University of Tennessee because I had, through conferences and networking, I met my current advisor here. And I told both schools that I would stay at Illinois for less. And Illinois didn’t have the power to offer, or like the nuclear engineering program at the University of Illinois, didn’t have the power to offer me more than like the base research assistantship that they offer to like all of the graduate students there. But the University of Tennessee has these like top-off fellowships that they will add to a base stipend in order to get a student to commit to the university who’s maybe deciding between two programs.

12:01 Alyssa: And with just the base stipend, Illinois, I think pays, I might be mistaken on the exact number, but I think they were offering like $26,000 a year. And the University of Tennessee’s base pay at the time was $30,000 per year. We’ve since gotten a raise and now it’s $33K. But the top-off fellowship that was offered to me was $10,000 a year. So then it became a no-brainer. And I was like, I would stay at Illinois for less, but not this much less. And so, now I am making about $45K with bonuses and like a couple of like, you know, service-based scholarships that I get on a somewhat regular basis. So, it kind of evens out to about $45,000 a year with the raise and the top-off fellowship. And so now, I feel like more of a regular adult that has a livable amount of money and I’m not as worried anymore about like, “Oh God, I saw a movie this weekend and now I can’t do anything else fun for the rest of the week.” And so like, I don’t have any of those like worries anymore, but I do still think about them. Like that mindset is always in the back of my mind of like, “Oh, like, is this like a waste of money? I don’t need to be doing this,” or, “This is so expensive,” you know?

$45K Stipend in Knoxville

13:24 Emily: Okay. There was so much in there. So much good stuff that I want to follow-up on. Let’s take it kind of in turns. I want to put a pin in the negotiation part of it. We’ll come back to that in a moment. But let’s focus now on like again, still your money mindset. You just mentioned some of it. You don’t have to be as worried about small joys and extravagances that you allow yourself. So, you’re making about $45,000 a year. Very good stipend for a graduate student, especially in a, you know, lower cost of living area. How, like give us some context about how much that pays for. Because obviously in other areas of the country, $45K is like, “Oh, I’m barely scraping by.”

14:00 Alyssa: Yeah.

14:00 Emily: How does that feel for you right now?

14:03 Alyssa: Knoxville is very affordable to live in. When you’re going to school, like in not really a big city, but more of like a rural part of the country, that definitely helps. Although there’s definitely, you have to balance that with being a person of color, too. So there aren’t other Filipinos, like in this whole city, it seems. I haven’t met any of them or seen anybody else like that’s the same race as me. There’s also a lot of segregation here. And so like, there are parts of town that you can’t go to. So you kind of have to balance that when you’re like, “Oh, if I live somewhere rural, then that’s more affordable to live in,” but there are parts of those areas that also may not be safe for you if you’re in a similar situation.

14:48 Emily: Yeah. I’m glad that you pointed that out because it’s something that I often don’t acknowledge or that can go unacknowledged that people of color in some cases do not have all of the options available to them that White people do, or, you know, other like races. Because as you just said, there are some areas where you can’t live, you have to pay the premium to live in a different area because it’s simply not an option to feel safe, you know, paying the least amount of rent that you could or whatever. So, a very important consideration when people are choosing graduate schools to kind of, to feel out if you are going to feel safe there, and what is the university going to do to support you?

15:21 Alyssa: And while we’re kind of on this, it might also be worth mentioning the current abortion scenario in the United States. If that’s something that matters to you and you have the ability to become pregnant, like a lot of the 26 states that are passing laws that restrict your access to it may also be something to consider because a lot of those contain the rural areas where it is more affordable to attend a university there.

15:46 Emily: Another wrinkle. Yeah. We’re recording this in May, 2022. I don’t know exactly when we’re going to release this. There may be more developments between now and then. But yes, an issue that I think many of us were not expecting to have to consider when we’re choosing graduate school. So, another good point.

Prioritizing Happiness

16:04 Emily: Let’s talk more about the money though. So like, you’re able to pay, you’re able to live a more comfortable lifestyle. Your mindset is still, how is your mindset doing? Like, are you able to splurge on yourself a little bit, or do you still have some of the mindset lingering from when you grew up or your undergraduate experience?

16:22 Alyssa: A lot of it is more, I guess, in the back of my mind, but I have put like a conscious effort into prioritizing my own happiness. Not just in the way of like work-life balance, but financially to ensure that like, you know, spending money on things that make you happy is not wasted money in the same way that spending time on things that make you happy is not wasted time. And so, like I saw two movies this weekend <laugh> instead of one with my partner, because I wanted to and that helped distract me from some heavy things that were going on in my life. And that was money well-spent. Yeah, it wasn’t on a bill, but it’s something that I like, you know, put effort into not feeling bad about that. So, I’ve been dealing with grief this weekend, and I’ve been spending a lot of money, like additional money than I would in any other week on eating out a lot. Just so that way I wouldn’t have to like do household chores, like dishes or worry about cooking while I’m dealing with grief.

17:29 Alyssa: And so like, those are like, you know, that was part of like, I guess, a change in mindset that I noticed where it was easier for me to do that in my current financial scenario, like situation versus when I was in undergrad. Like I had those thoughts in the back my mind of like, “Wow, I’m spending a lot of money. <Laugh> this week alone between, you know, funeral costs and like the additional money I was spending on food.” I’ve easily spent like a thousand dollars in the last four days on not bills, but that was easier for me to accept now and probably even easier now versus like my first year in grad school, when that would’ve been a harder, like mental hurdle to get over.

18:16 Emily: Yeah. And I’m assuming that this simply would not have been an option for you in undergrad to spend in this way. It is not an option for many graduate students, either, who are being paid less. And in our prep for this conversation, you said to me something along the lines of, you know, you’re living well right now given what you’re paid and given the low cost-of-living, and you think that all graduate students should feel this way. Can you elaborate on that a bit?

18:42 Alyssa: Yes. So, currently, like I said, I make $45,000 about per year. And whenever I tell other graduate students that like, sometimes, like I try not to let it like come off as like a brag because of the low cost-of-living in Knoxville, too. But it’s more of that I obviously agree that like everybody should, you know, talk about their wages, especially to your coworkers. Because I think that like all grad students should feel as comfortable as I feel in terms of my financial situation. I think that I make a fair wage, and maybe I’m biased because of my previous financial situation, but I personally have no complaints about the amount of money that I’m making right now. I feel supported by my advisor and by my department. I feel that I am valued for my labor. And I think that shows through how much they pay me. And I think that everybody should be able to feel that way about their department and about their advisor.

Commercial

19:52 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. I have set a big goal for my business and our U.S. PhD community broadly. My goal is for every graduate student, postdoc, or postbac in the U.S. who is not having income tax withheld from their stipend or salary to be offered training on how to 1) estimate their future income tax liability, 2) determine if they are required to pay quarterly estimated tax, and 3) prepare to pay their tax bill or bills through setting up a system of self-withholding. I provide just such a training, which is my asynchronous workshop titled Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. Now, some universities, institutes, or funding agencies already offer such a training, and they have no need to work with me. But others won’t allow their employees to touch the topic of taxes with a 10-foot pole, and that’s where working with me can really benefit everyone. Would you please send me an email and tell me which camp your university falls into—or if it’s somewhere in between? You can reach me at emily@PFforPhDs.com. Furthermore, let me know if you want to take Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients for free or think that the cohort coming in this fall should, and I’ll reply with how you can help make that happen. I look forward to hearing from you! Now back to our interview.

Learning to Negotiate

21:33 Emily: I wanted to come back now to the negotiation piece. So, I think you mentioned something like, you know, you told both universities that you would accept a slightly lower stipend from University of Illinois. Tell me like, you even brought up money in these conversations. Like why were you even having conversations with the programs? What gave you the idea that you could talk about this and that maybe there would be more for you there?

21:56 Alyssa: So, part of it was because while I was at the University of Illinois, I got comfortable asking for money. One by being a leader in a lot of the different like student programs and then having to correspond regularly with the staff and the department head there. So, I knew a lot of those people well, and at one point I wanted to go to the Nuclear Innovation Bootcamp in the year 2017. And there was like obviously paying for travel flight costs. I didn’t have to pay for lodging as part of that Bootcamp, but there was also a hefty registration fee and I couldn’t afford any of that. And so, like there was no route to like ask for it to be paid for. There was no like standardized path or form that you could fill out for things to be waived.

22:46 Alyssa: So, I wrote like a little one-page request to my department saying like, this is this program. I really want to go. This is what I’m going to get out of it. Will you pay for it? And then at the very bottom, it said more information about why I may qualify for financial need available upon request. But I didn’t really like talk about my financial situation. I just explained what the program was, and why I wanted to go. And I gave that to them, and with no further questions they paid for everything. I think they even, I want to say they reimbursed my flights, but if I hadn’t bought them, they may have paid for them in advance. I don’t quite remember. But I had realized that like they wanted to support me, and that they were okay with students kind of going the outside-of-the-box route in terms of asking for money.

23:38 Alyssa: And that was when I was a sophomore in college. So, that gave me the confidence, then, when I was in grad school to ask for a higher rate or wage when I was applying to grad school. And they, unfortunately, weren’t able to do it or I don’t, you know, necessarily know all the behind-the-scenes that went on there. And sure, they said no, but I wasn’t at all reprimanded for asking in the first place. Like nothing, you know, bad happened to me. The best that I could have done was ask, even if they said no. So, I’m glad that I did. And it turned out well for me because at the University of Tennessee, I didn’t even know that there were top-off fellowships. But I got one because I was upfront with the University of Tennessee about how I would have, you know, taken the lower offer elsewhere and about how I was considering other schools and kind of in the same way that you’re like, I learned how to like negotiate a car price down from my dad.

24:36 Alyssa: So that was, I guess, a little bit of a privilege that I had because I had to buy a car to like move to Tennessee, because they have terrible public transit here. It’s kind of the whole tell the other you know, person that you’re negotiating with about this other thing that you’re also considering. Make that look nice and shiny. So that way they’ll try to give you a little bit of a better offer. I ended up also getting this laptop and all of the accessories that go with it out of the same deal with my current advisor. Like I asked them to buy me, you know, personal equipment that I could use to like, you know, be a person outside of grad school, too. Like I didn’t have a functioning laptop at the time. And so all of that got thrown in as well.

25:23 Emily: I think that’s such a powerful message, like, and I’m glad that you learned it as a sophomore in college and that you were able to then apply it in your process for applying to graduate school. Like just ask, like, just let people know of your need and let them figure out how they can best, you know, work behind-the-scenes to make that happen for you. So, you got this amazing like top-up fellowship. I mean, $10,000 is a very significant, you know, add-on to an already, you know okay base stipend. So, that sounds amazing. Just, I think this is a wonderful message for any prospective graduate students, or anybody at any stage, really just ask for what you need. Let people know, and especially like you said that you have options and this would help your decision. I think you said earlier, like it was a no-brainer to go with the University of Tennessee once they made that, you know, augmentation to their offer. So, so glad to hear that.

Normalizing Talking About Grad Student Stipends

26:12 Emily: Let’s talk more about stipends for other graduate students as well. So, I understand you’ve recently kind of entered into some conversations with peers about how we can, union is not the right word, but sort of collectively bargain or like share information about stipends. So, tell me more about that endeavor.

26:33 Alyssa: Yeah. So, normalizing talking about our wages is like step one in changing the culture around laborers. So that way we can all benefit collectively. But we kind of wanted to take this a little bit of a step further among nuclear engineering grad students specifically because by going to conferences and networking, not just with employers or other universities, et cetera, but we also spend that time networking with each other. And so, because it’s so common for grad students to kind of see the same people all the time in the nuclear engineering programs, because we’re so small, a lot of us just know each other from like all across the country. And I know that this isn’t something that a lot of other fields have the benefit of because it’s not realistic for like every electrical engineering graduate student to all know each other.

27:31 Alyssa: But at least to know somebody who knows somebody at pretty much any nuclear engineering graduate program is realistic for us. So, we got together at the most recent student conference. And we are currently building a spreadsheet that has everybody’s like gross pay, all of the things that you have to pay for that are related to your health insurance or your academic costs, your fees, and then what your take-home pay is, and then comparing all of that to the cost-of-living based on where your university is, your university’s ranking, and your department’s ranking. So, that way you can kind of compare and contrast. So that way, if there is a department that is ranked highly compared to its university’s ranking, which implies that that department has more power to maybe change the pay that their graduate students are receiving, but those graduate students maybe aren’t being paid well, then they can use the collective sheet to say like, this is where we’re falling right now, compared to how much these other similar programs are paying their graduate students. And we think that you should, you know, value our labor a little bit more and that we deserve to have higher wages. And so, use like that collective information for other institutions to bargain. So that way maybe they can get the same level of financial comfort that I am afforded right now.

29:07 Emily: This is an amazing effort. I totally commend you and your peers for like this idea, and starting work on this. It sounds like you’re in the data collection stage.

29:17 Alyssa: Yes.

29:17 Emily: Is that right? Like you’re building the spreadsheet, putting in all these different factors. I love that you mentioned like ranking of university, because I have some work in this area as well, and I just think about cost-of-living. I don’t think about like how, you know, the university is regarded or their program is regarded. So, I think that’s a really interesting like additional element. I’m not sure when this episode will come out in relation to these other ones, but I have some other podcast episodes slated for 2022 on this same issue of like sort of information-sharing about stipends and bargaining in some manner to increase stipends. So, this is wonderful and it aligns very well with that.

Health Insurance (Non-)Coverage

29:53 Alyssa: The thing that like, the one piece of information that like made it, like click in my brain where I was like, “We need to like, do something more about this and just talk about our pay,” was that one of the grad students that I didn’t even know well, like while I was at U of I, that I was just kind of like chatting with at a social at this conference told me that his health insurance was not covered. And like, mine is, like, I don’t, it’s not taken out of my pay. Like, yes, it’s like technically like, “Oh, like you could have just, you know, they could have just given me the money that they’re using to pay for my health insurance,” but like the University of Illinois’ grad student health insurance is like taken out of their pay. So, that’s like a part of like the gross pay that they advertise. And I was like, that’s not cool. <Laugh> what do you mean your health insurance isn’t covered? So then I asked to have a meeting with the department head there because I like knew him well from when I was a student there. And he actually was the one who gave me the idea. He was like, why don’t you get more of this information from other schools? And then, so we’ll go from there.

30:59 Emily: That’s excellent. And I totally agree, like in PhD Stipends as well, I have a way to enter like what your stipend is, but then like, what are you paying out of that stipend in terms of fees and tuition and whatever. And like for health insurance and other types of fees as well, like that can add up to thousands of dollars a year. So, that’s not some insignificant like, oh, it’s a $20 fee, whatever. This is a really big percentage of like that overall stipend that they’re receiving.

31:23 Alyssa: Yeah.

31:24 Emily: The other thing I’m really excited about for your project too, is like this fellowship that you received is probably one that’s offered sometimes to other students as well. So, it’s good to have both sets of information, right? Like what’s the base stipend and then, “Oh, sometimes this additional funding is available.” Wouldn’t it be great if we could pull everybody up to that level or, you know, that kind of thing? So, I just, if you aren’t already, I would definitely encourage you to include that kind of information as well in the spreadsheet. What different students are being paid, even within the same department.

31:52 Alyssa: Yeah, we did get a raise this year, which took effect about two months ago. So, because of the change in the economy throughout the pandemic, all graduate students in the nuclear engineering department at the University of Tennessee received a 10% stipend raise. So, full research assistants are now making 33 instead of $30,000 per year as the base-level stipend. Additionally, this was through the effort of our nuclear engineering graduate student assembly, which is kind of like also not a union, but a collection of just the nuclear engineering grad students. We managed to through a couple of years actually of pressure convince our department to begin covering our academic fees. So, which also kind of feels like a raise in terms of take-home pay. So, now we no longer have to pay as much and many students don’t have to pay any fees anymore for things like, you know, your basic like academic, you know, transportation fee, student health center fee, recreational fee. So, all of that is pretty much covered now.

33:02 Emily: For sure. And it makes it so much easier to compare apples to apples, right? When those kinds of fees are covered. But I’m sure in your spreadsheet you’ll be accounting for everything. So, I love this idea. I’m so excited for y’all to like move forward with this and hope it comes together in the near future.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

33:16 Emily: Well, Alyssa, it’s been such a pleasure to talk with you and I’m so glad that you volunteered to be on here, and you’ve had so many really vital messages that have come through in this interview. And I’m really grateful for that. I wrap up all my interviews by asking my guests one final question, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve already touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

33:39 Alyssa: I had a similar question asked of me in my most recent D&D session with my friends. Just like we were talking after. And, specifically, their question was, how much of my success is rooted in like just being confident? And that applies to so much in that, like I had the confidence to ask to go to all these different programs, the Bootcamp, to different conferences. And when I’m at conferences, then while I’m there, I’m networking with all these different potential employers and powerful people, like some of my future reference letter writers are people that I’ve only ever interacted with at conferences and have no other like relationship with them. And so, by networking with those people that, you know, that’s how I met my current advisor, and that’s how he learned about my work.

34:42 Alyssa: And that gave me the confidence to then talk to him about my financial situation. And you know, even asking to go to conferences in the first place built my confidence in asking for funding and asking for a raise. And it really taught me that, I mean, the best thing you can do is to at least ask and see if, you know, people will just give you money. Because sometimes they will. So, I don’t necessarily like the mindset of, you know, just apply to everything because it also can take resources and time. But apply to the things that you can, or that you have the spoons to. And it’s a way to try to tackle imposter syndrome is to know that other people have it too, but you deserve to have the confidence, regardless of any imposter syndrome you might have, to put yourself out there.

35:41 Emily: Thank you so much, Alyssa, for those concluding thoughts. Again, it’s been great to have you. Thank you so much!

35:46 Alyssa: Yeah. Thank you! Thank you for having me!

Outtro

35:53 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance…but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Financial Advice for Prospective PhD Students

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In this episode, Emily shared the financial advice for prospective and rising graduate students that she collected from current graduate students and PhDs. This financial advice can be applied all the way from when you are reading a grad school offer letter to when you’re matriculating into your PhD program. The topics covered include evaluating cost of living, side hustling prior to or during grad school, saving up cash, purchasing a home, and investing.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

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Teaser

00:00 Courtney: I really highly recommend using Emily’s savings bucket strategy throughout grad school to cover irregular expenses. About halfway through grad school, I started using the savings bucket strategy, which helped me feel a lot less stressed about money and my finances because when large expenses came up, I had a plan in place.

Introduction

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 11, Episode 5, and today I’m sharing with you the financial advice for prospective and rising graduate students that I have collected from current graduate students and PhDs. This financial advice can be applied all the way from when you are reading a grad school offer letter to when you’re matriculating into your PhD program. The topics covered include evaluating cost of living, side hustling prior to or during grad school, saving up cash, purchasing a home, and investing. This episode is kind of a sequel to Season 5 Episode 2, Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise: Choose a PhD Program That Will Support Your Personal and Professional Development. That episode was also designed for prospective graduate students and included advice from invited contributors on finances, grad student unions, professional development, mental health, and work-life balance.

01:28 Emily: If you’re already in or beyond grad school, would you please share this episode and/or the previous one so that it can reach its target audience? I’m sure once you listen through it, you will agree with me that the advice is invaluable. If you planning to start a PhD program in 2022 and would like to learn even more about the financial side of this process, I invite you to attend a couple of upcoming free webinars, part of my series Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School. The March webinar is for prospective graduate students, and you can find more information at PFforPhDs.com/prospective/. The April webinar is for rising graduate students, and you can find more information at PFforPhDs.com/rising/. If you’re not sure what I mean by prospective vs. rising, listen through the remainder of this episode. I hope that you will join me for these webinars. I will show you how to start graduate school on the right financial foot.

Do You Even Need to Go to Grad School?

02:33 Emily: The advice in this section is for prospective PhD students, by which I mean people who have already applied to programs and perhaps received some acceptances and/or started interviewing, but who have not yet committed to a program. We’ll start with the advice collected from your fellow graduate students and PhDs.

02:53 Emily: Our first topic is do you even need to go to grad school? And this is the advice from Elyse K: “Figure out if a PhD is absolutely necessary to do what you want to do, and only go if it is absolutely necessary. It is worth delaying school to be absolutely sure–don’t get a PhD to figure out what you want to do! This is financial advice because there is a substantial opportunity cost to going to school full time for 4-6 years–even if you have a full stipend and tuition waiver you would probably make more working full time. If a PhD it isn’t going to serve you after you graduate, you’ll be financially better off without it.”

03:37 Emily: This advice from Elyse K is spot on, and it is something that you must listen to as a prospective PhD student, even if it’s unpleasant, because you’ve already committed a lot to this process of getting into a PhD program, I’m sure. Not just the application cycle, but the years leading up to that. But don’t be trapped by the sunk cost fallacy. It’s only going to get worse and worse if you enroll in graduate school and it’s not the right path for you. So as Elyse says, and I agree, be absolutely sure that the PhD is the right thing for your career, the right thing for your personal life and that this is the right time for it. Much better to bail now than halfway through a program or even all the way through your program if you realize that it wasn’t the right choice for you. If you want to hear more discussion of the financial opportunity cost of getting a PhD, please listen to my interview with Dr. Jen Polk from season seven, episode 14.

Reading Your Offer Letter

04:37 Emily: Our next topic is on reading your offer letter, your funding offer letter, from a graduate program, and Elyse K again says: “Don’t go into debt for a PhD. Find a program that will pay you or save up and cash flow school.” Again, I totally agree with Elyse. I am very hard pressed to think of a field in which you would get a PhD, but not be paid to it. Very difficult to come up with that. So of course, almost certainly you’re going to be receiving offers of funding along with your offers of admission. But to put a little bit more nuance on Elyse’s point, just because someone is offering you full funding, doesn’t mean you wouldn’t incur debt by going into that PhD program, because the offer of funding might not be high enough or consistent enough to keep you out of student loan debt, or alternatively having to side hustle. So I want you to really keep your eyes wide open when it comes to evaluating whether this program will actually keep you out of debt. Next up, we have a clip submitted from Shana.

05:42 Shana: Hello, Personal Finance for PhDs community. My name is Shana Slebioda, and I’m a staff member at a research university who works with graduate students. My advice for rising PhD students is to ask about summer financial support. Summer support packages may be different from during the academic year, especially if your support comes mainly from being a teaching assistant, also known as a TA. If your funding letter does not contain specifics about the summer months, be sure to ask. Talk to a faculty or staff member in your prospective program to get additional information. You can also talk to current students in the program to find out how they spend their summers. Do this early. Your first summer session will be there before you know it. And good luck.

06:36 Emily: This is absolutely vital advice from Shana. And again, I completely agree. Your offer letter, ideally, should tell you how you’ll be funded for the entire first 12 months of your program. So, if it doesn’t include details about your summer, as Shana said, you need to inquire about it. Both from, you know, the DGS [Director of Graduate Studies] or whoever’s offering you the funding package, and also with current graduate students to find out how funding typically works in the summer, or if it’s funded at all. But I want to extend this advice to say that it’s also very important to get an idea of your entire funding path through the PhD. Not just through the first summer, but your second year, your third year, fourth year, and all of the summers as well. Your program might or may not be able to give you super specifics about your situation. Maybe they can, maybe they can’t, but that’s where current graduate students come in very handy because they will tell you what from their experience and what they’ve observed among their peers about how people are funded or not throughout their time in the PhD program.

Evaluating Cost of Living

07:37 Emily: Our next topic is on evaluating cost of living for, I would say all of the programs that you are seriously considering attending. Julia’s advice is: “Ask current students about living expenses and estimate your budget. In some cities, to rent an apartment you might need to pay three to four months worth of rent upfront (first and last month of rent, broker fees, security deposit). You might need to consider having a roommate.” Again, the advice to talk to current graduate students is the best. They are going to be the people best positioned to give you the picture of how finances are working on the ground in this PhD program.

08:14 Emily: And I love the specificity of how much you might be asked to put up to rent an apartment. This is very, very city-dependent. I’m guessing Julia may live in Boston or New York. Certainly there may be other cities that operate the same way, but yes, it can be very expensive to get into your first apartment. In some cases, up to four months of expenses, in some cases less, it’s just going to be really city dependent. So it’s something you need to investigate possibly before you commit to a program, but definitely at the point that you do commit to a program.

08:44 Emily: We also have some advice from Ben: “You can pretty much have a successful research career anywhere you end up. So don’t let thoughts about potential research advisors overshadow comparisons of cost of living and stipend when considering programs.” I wish that I had heard this advice from Ben when I was in this phase of being a prospective PhD student, because I absolutely number one was picking my program based off of the potential research that I could do there. The advisor that I would have, the resources that the program had at its disposal, these kinds of things. So I was really not giving any thought to finances or other personal considerations that I now know are very, very important to have you know, in the mix in your decision-making.

09:29 Emily: And so I now definitely agree with Ben that yes, the research considerations are very important, but so is understanding what your lifestyle is going to be financially during your time in graduate school. And so are a lot of other things you might call personal factors. So they all should have a place. And don’t forget that your finances and these other personal factors will affect how successful you are in your program. So these are not, you know, disconnected from one another. If you are super stressed about money, or if you have to go into debt or side hustle, it’s going to affect how well you perform in your research career and potentially how long it takes you to graduate. So, as I said, all the factors should go into the mix.

Working Before or During Grad School

10:13 Emily: Our next topic is on working, either in this period of time between now and when you matriculate or after you matriculate. Our first piece of advice is from Gillian Hayes: “Work as much as you can in paid positions before returning to graduate school to save money to bridge the difficult times during the PhD. You may also make connections that will allow you to do side hustles or internships during your program.” Coming into graduate school with cash savings sets you up as best as possible to have a strong financial position. When I think about people who start graduate school without cash savings, or maybe even with, you know, incurring some credit card debt because of those moving expenses, you’re sort of thrown onto your back foot financially, like you’re off balance.

11:03 Emily: It’s not a strong position to start in. And of course it’s necessary in many cases, but I like Gillian’s advice. I agree with it. If at all possible, work before getting into that PhD program to generate cash savings so that you have money for moving, so that you have money for start up expenses. And so that you don’t have financial stress at the same time you’re trying to get started in your program. I also totally agree with her that working certain kinds of jobs will help you in your career that you’re trying to pursue during your PhD, and things like internships and side hustles can be part of that. If you’d like to hear more from Gillian, and I know you would, you can listen to her full interview in season six, episode six.

11:45 Emily: And here’s some advice from Nell: “Consider having another job. When I went to grad school, I went part-time with my previous full-time job. I’ve done it during school for 4 years now. I’ve noticed among my friends and colleagues that it’s the grad students who have second jobs who seem happier and mentally healthier, and have less trouble meeting their deadlines and keeping grad school anxiety in perspective. Obviously, you should keep monitoring yourself to see if it’s sustainable or the right choice for you. I have moments where I feel overwhelmed. But I have a lot less anxiety about grad school since it’s not my entire professional identity and I’m not taking a huge pay cut to be here. I see people who have never held another job applying for academic jobs and facing the possibility that they will not get anything permanent or well-compensated, even though they are excellent at what they do. They don’t know how to pivot and are doubting all their choices. It’s not their fault; it’s the market. But I see having a second job as a hedge against the kind of personal and financial crisis that comes in those circumstances.”

12:46 Emily: I think it’s really going to depend on your program and your field, whether holding a concurrent second part-time job is feasible, and also of course your personal responsibilities as well. So it seems to be working for Nell. And of course, she has great advice by saying keep monitoring yourself to see if it’s sustainable. So I don’t know if like a full like part-time job, like 20 hours a week or something is going to be right for everyone. But I do agree with her that it does lessen anxiety related to graduate school when it’s not, as she said, her whole professional identity or even identity generally. And so I do think it’s really healthy to have a side hustle or some kinds of side pursuits during your time in graduate school, because it does give you a break from all of your focus on your PhD.

13:33 Emily: It may give you another source of income, which can help with financial stability. So there are lots of positives to it. The drawbacks being of course, the time management aspects, the energy management aspects. So, you have to know yourself in this respect, but I do think it’s well worth considering. So if you have currently a full-time job that it’s possible to keep working for that employer part-time, either on still an employee basis or maybe a contractor basis, I think that’s worth having a conversation, it’s worth a tryout, of course, given that it would be allowed by your graduate program. Now, some graduate programs do bar outside work or outside work of a certain type or above a certain hourly commitment. So you have to be careful about that, but I do like the suggestion. And alternatively, if you’re not in a full-time job that you would, you know, consider taking with you in some capacity into graduate school, the next suggestion is to develop some kind of side hustle during these months between now and when you matriculate that you’ll be able to take with you into graduate school.

Emily’s Best Advice for Prospective PhD Students

14:28 Emily: My best advice for prospective PhD students is to 1) interrogate your offer letter, and 2) compare your actual salary to the local cost of living. What I mean by interrogate is that there’s a set of about a half-dozen financial questions that you need to have answers to regarding your funding package to fully understand what your finances will look like during your PhD program. One example is how much of what is listed as your stipend in your offer letter will you pay in tuition, fees, and/or your health insurance premium. You need to subtract those mandatory fees from your stipend to see what you’ll actually be paid before taxes. If your offer letter doesn’t provide all the answers, you’ll need to ask the questions of the program’s administrative staff.

15:12 Emily: However, the absolute stipend numbers are not the whole picture. Obviously, $30,000 is going to go a lot further in West Lafayette, Indiana than Seattle, Washington. You need a way to normalize the stipend to the local cost of living. The first-pass way that I suggest you do this is to use the numbers in the Living Wage Database from MIT at livingwage.mit.edu. You can divide each stipend by the local living wage to get an idea of how much purchasing power the stipend will actually provide.

15:48 Emily: I suggest making a spreadsheet to keep track of all these factors, and in fact I will provide such a spreadsheet in my upcoming Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School webinar for prospective graduate students. In this webinar, I’ll expand on what I stated above and cover additional timely topics, including one that is almost taboo in academia. The webinar is free and you can find more information and how to sign up at PFforPhDs.com/prospective/.

Commercial

16:19 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2021 tax return, which are available at PFforPhDs.com/tax/. I hope you will check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which are linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. I offer one workshop on preparing your annual tax return for graduate students and one workshop on calculating your quarterly estimated tax for fellowship and training grant recipients. It would be my pleasure to help you save you time and potentially money this tax season, so don’t hesitate to reach out. Now back to our interview.

Cash Savings for Rising PhD Students

17:35 Emily: The advice in this section is for rising PhD students, by which I mean, people who have committed to attending a particular PhD program, but have not yet matriculated. We’ll start with the advice collected from your fellow graduate students and PhDs. Our first topic is the necessity of cash savings. Our first piece of advice is from Elyse K: “Adjust your budget now to your stipend income and save up to make sure you have a substantial emergency fund (more on the 6 months of expenses side than 3 months). Many universities only offer students crappy or expensive healthcare plans. Hopefully, you are healthy over the next four-to-six years, but knowing you can cover a high insurance out-of-pocket maximum without additional debt is comforting.” This is definitely great advice, especially if you’re currently working and living on a salary that’s higher after adjusting for cost of living than the stipend that you will be on in just a few months. So, it’s great advice. Live on that future stipend and save everything you can in between now and then. I also love that she points out the importance of having an emergency fund and yeah, knowing your insurance benefits. So knowing what your deductible is, what your co-insurance responsibilities are. You can find out this information now to start preparing. Next, we have a clip from Courtney.

18:57 Courtney: Hi, my name is Courtney, and last year I graduated with my PhD in microbiology. My biggest piece of financial advice for grad school is to set up an automatic transfer after you get your stipend payment to a separate savings account for paying taxes if you do not get income taxes withheld from your paycheck, which I know many graduate fellowships do not. This way, the money is already allocated when it comes time to pay quarterly estimated taxes, or when you file taxes in the spring. And jumping off of that, I really highly recommend using Emily’s savings bucket strategy throughout grad school to cover irregular expenses, such as large purchases, maybe medical deductible payments, or friends’ weddings. Also, it’s important to save for an emergency fund, maybe a pet fund if you have a pet, and planning for fun thing as well, such as vacations. About halfway through grad school, I started using this savings bucket strategy, which helped me feel a lot less stressed about money and my finances because when large expenses came up, I had a plan in place. I used this strategy to save for a month’s worth of living expenses to cover a month gap in between when I finished my PhD and when I started my new position, and I also was able to save up for a vacation to celebrate my graduation and really treat myself after completing my PhD.”

20:34 Emily: I love that Courtney gave us these specific examples of how targeted savings buckets can be used. For her, it was paying her taxes and also saving up to cover an income lapse and saving up for a vacation. I love that she said it made her less stressed. If you’d like to learn more about this savings bucket strategy, I devoted a whole podcast episode to it. It’s season seven, episode 15: How to Solve the Problem of Irregular Expenses. It goes beyond just having an emergency fund to preparing through saving for other large irregular expenses like taxes, like having to buy flights, like having to replace your computer or buy furniture or any other large purchases you might have to make. Specifically on the topic of taxes, it’s very important for you to know sometime before you matriculate that it’s pretty likely that at some during graduate school, you are going to be funded through a source of what I call awarded income. It might be called a fellowship or a training grant or a scholarship or some other kind of award that pays your stipend.

21:38 Emily: And if that is the case, most universities will not withhold income tax on your behalf the way they do for employees. You may be an employee at other points in your graduate career, like having an assistantship. But if you’re ever not an employee, then that income tax withholding may not be offered to you. And if that is the case, you will be responsible for making your own tax payments manually, whether that’s up to four times per year through the estimated tax system, or in one lump sum when you file your tax return each spring. So as Courtney said, it’s really important to save up for those tax bills. I like to call it, setting up a system of self-withholding. So you’re sort of simulating the withholding that would be done by an employer if you had one by doing, as she said, these auto-transfers. Every time you receive a paycheck, set up an automatic transfer to go into your designated tax savings account for an appropriate amount of money. If you’d like more detail about how to do these calculations around taxes or the system of self-withholding, I have a whole workshop devoted to it, which you can find at PFforPhDs.com/QETax, that’s for quarterly estimated tax. And this is something that I wish every matriculating graduate student was told during orientation that estimated tax is your responsibility, potentially, if you are on one of these non-W-2, non-employee sources of income.

23:03 Emily: And our final piece of advice regarding cash savings is from Julia: “Try to save even a little bit and put the money away for savings and/or retirement investments. Learning about investing can be overwhelming, but you can start with passive investing in a couple of general ETFs (e.g., tracking S&P 500 and international stocks for diversification) and learn more as you go. To avoid overwhelm, allocate fixed time slots to learn about finance, e.g., 1 hour per week. Eventually, you’ll become more comfortable.” I mean, of course, I totally agree with this advice from Julia. It’s kind of everything I do in my business teaching about personal finance, and I especially love talking about investing with graduate students and postdocs. It’s very easy to get started with passive investing. It’s very easy to manage investments passively. So it’s something that can be completely compatible with your journey as a graduate student, as long as your finances are ready for it. I would say it’s more important to build up some of the emergency and buckets we’ve been talking about and pay off high priority debt, like credit cards, before getting involved with investing. But once your finances are ready for it, it does not have to be a big time suck for you. So that’s great advice from Julia.

Homeownership

24:17 Emily: Our next topic is homeownership. This is one of my favorite new topics to be talking about with graduate students and early-career PhDs. Here’s the advice from Nell: “Seriously consider home ownership EARLY in your program. Emily and her brother have covered this on the podcast, but you ideally need 3 years of funding remaining. I bought a place at the beginning of my second year. The second job and the 5 years of continuance made it easier to get a mortgage. Meanwhile, I have a friend in his 5th year, now in the process of buying a place, and he found out about the 3-year continuance rule very late, causing an extremely stressful family situation and problems with his department, who he had to beg for a letter promising him more funding. While there have certainly been stresses with my place (roof, plumbing) which I am privileged to be able to deal with, the fact that I can go away for research and rent it out rather than have to pay two rents or put all my stuff in storage means that I am able to be much more mobile and flexible as I design how I will spend my time researching and writing the dissertation. Again, this is about peace of mind and mental health as much as financial security.”

25:23 Emily: This advice from Nell is so valuable. Now, I have to say, first off, many graduate students are not in a position to buy. The vast majority of graduate students are not in a position to buy a home, because several factors have to come together kind of perfectly. You have to live in a housing market where the home prices are not very, very high. You have to have a stipend that is high enough to manage to, you know, qualify for a mortgage in that market. And you have to have some savings place for the down payment and the closing costs, moving costs, these kinds of things. And you have to have good credit. So these things all have to come together. But for some graduate students, it is possible.

25:58 Emily: And if you think you may be in that situation, you should definitely investigate it early on. I have done several podcast episodes with my brother, Sam Hogan. He is a mortgage originator with Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage) who specializes in graduate students and PhDs. And he knows all the ins and outs of qualifying for a mortgage, even when you have non-employee income fellowship income, which for some lenders is unfamiliar. The podcast interviews that I’ve done with Sam in the past are season five, episode 17, How to Qualify for a Mortgage as a Graduate Student or PhD, Even with Non-W-2 Fellowship Income, and season eight, episode four, Turn Your Largest Liability into Your Largest Asset with House Hacking. Those are really exciting episodes to listen to, but I do want to tell you there have been some updates, especially to the content that Nell just talked about. So, we used to think there was this necessity to have three years of guaranteed funding when you had a non-W2 type position as a graduate student or postdoc, but Sam has actually found a way kind of around that in some cases.

27:00 Emily: So, I would say it’s very helpful to have three years of continuance, but not strictly necessary for everyone. So the best thing to do is to talk to a mortgage lender like Sam, or like someone else who’s familiar with PhDs and graduate students, and get their perspective on your income type and your whole like picture to see whether or not you would be able to qualify for a mortgage. Check out the Personal Finance for PhDs’ YouTube channel for some of those like short updates. I’ve been publishing clips from the live Q&A calls that I’ve been hosting with Sam for first-time home buyers. If you’d like to learn more about that, go to PFforPhds.com/mortgage to find out when the next live Q&A call will be. By the way, if you want to reach out to Sam directly, the best way is probably to text or call his phone number, which is (540) 478-5803. Or you can email him at sam.hogan@movement.com.

27:59 Emily: I really love Nell’s perspective in this advice of having it be an ease on her mind and her finances to own a home versus renting when she has to be away for research purposes. Like I never thought about that before. So I’m really glad to get Nell’s perspective on this. I’m really glad that it’s worked out for her. Elyse K also added this advice: “If you’ve been working full time and it is the right time for you, consider buying a home you can afford on your stipend before your full-time income is gone because it will be easier to get financing.” Again, you can hear a lot of concern about qualifying for a mortgage as a graduate student. It is an area of concern, but Sam can help you with this specifically if you want him to. But Elyce’s advice is really good. If you are going from a full-time job into graduate school, and especially if you’re not moving cities, getting that mortgage and the home purchase done before starting graduate school is a good idea. But as she said, make sure you can afford it on your stipend, not just your current salary.

Working During Your PhD

28:54 Emily: Our next topic is working while you’re pursuing your PhD. So, Gillian has this advice: “Intern. No matter what your field, there are internship opportunities. This will provide insight into non-academic career paths as well as extra money during your studies.” I could not agree with Gillian anymore about this. Internships are becoming much more widely available and acceptable to do during a PhD, which is wonderful. And they often pay more than the, you know, stipend that would be getting during that time anyway. Again, listen to that previous episode that I did with Gillian and also check out season seven, episode seven, where I interviewed a current PhD student who did a very well-paid summer internship with a tech company, and that worked out very nicely for her finances.

29:42 Emily: But really, Gillian’s point about gaining insight into non-academic career paths is the invaluable part of this. Like, yes, the money is nice, but while in graduate school, you are setting yourself up for your future career, and doing internships and other kinds of work opportunities do serve that goal just as much as your PhD studies do. And this advice is from Elyse K: “Consider finding or starting a side hustle within your university’s boundaries (many allow <20-hour per week part-time positions). Part-time income can make or break PhD students; I’ve seen some have to drop out because they need money.” Again, really solid advice. It should not be the case that graduate students need side hustles or need student loan debt to financially get them through graduate school. Yet this is the reality for a lot of people, or if not strictly necessary, sometimes side hustles can just enhance your lifestyle and make things a little bit better for you during graduate school. Whatever the reason, I think side hustling is a great idea, but of course you have to make sure that it’s not interfering with your progress towards your degree. That is primarily what you are in graduate school to do.

Financial Assistance as a Grad Student Parent

30:54 Emily: Next, I have some great comments from an anonymous contributor who is a graduate student parent. “Even if you think you do not qualify, consider applying for income assistance programs such as SNAP, Medicaid, and other DHS programs for needy families. Generally, students enrolled over half-time do not qualify for SNAP, but if you have any of these exemptions, there’s a chance you’ll qualify. Some exemptions include: Are under age 18 or are age 50 or older. Have a physical or mental disability. Work at least 20 hours a week in a paid, on-the-job training program. Work at least 20 hours a week in paid employment. Participate in a state or federally-financed work study program. Participate in an on-the-job training program. Care for a child under the age of 6. Care for a child age 6 to 11 and lack the necessary child care enabling you to attend school and work 20 hours a week or participate in work study. Are a single parent enrolled full-time in college and taking care of a child under 12.”

31:50 Emily: “With children you may also qualify for state funded childcare, children’s health insurance, and possibly even income supplementation. These are often wrapped into the same application at your state’s Department of Health and Human Services website, making it much simpler to apply for all at once. You never know until you apply, and you just might be surprised. Every dollar helps! Every so often you will need to reapply or get re-certified so you’ll be asked to update your information periodically, so always look for these very important mailings once you’re involved in any assistance programs or you could risk losing coverage for not responding in time.”

32:22 Emily: Super appreciative to anonymous for submitting these comments. This is not something I had personal experience with during graduate school, so I really appreciate, you know, the community member stepping up to speak to this situation. In season two, episode one, I published an episode with Lauri Reinhold [Lutes] who was a single parent during graduate school. And what came through in that interview was how intentional Lauri was in choosing her graduate program, choosing one that would be supportive of her needs as a graduate student parent, and then also applying for every single benefit she possibly could on behalf of herself and her daughter once in graduate school. So that’s another great interview to follow up with to learn more about this topic if you are a parent or are planning on becoming a parent.

Final Pieces of Advice

33:05 Emily: And for our last topic, we have a really quick piece of advice from Ben, which is: “Read The Simple Path to Wealth by J.L. Collins!” So this advice is on investing again and how relatively accessible it is. I read The Simple Path to Wealth myself about a year ago, really enjoyed it. J. L. Collins is a really easy person to read and understand all about index fund investing, passive investing. So, highly, highly recommend that book as well. And thank you, Ben, for that advice.

33:34 Emily: My best advice for prospective PhD students echoes some of what you just heard, and it’s to work between now and when you matriculate to save up cash for your move, startup expenses, emergency fund, et cetera. If you’re already working a well-paid full-time job or have existing cash savings, that’s awesome, and you’re on a great track. If you are currently a college student or have a not-so-well-paid job, like I did before grad school, it’s time to think about how you can increase your income over the coming months so you can save. Can you do a paid internship? Can you get a full-time temporary position with a good pay rate? Can you start a side hustle, ideally one that you can take with you to graduate school? I love flexible self-employment side hustles for graduate students, such as consulting, freelancing or teaching, but it can take time to build up a client base, so start laying that groundwork now, or at least over the summer.

34:31 Emily: We’ll expand on this topic in my next Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School webinar for rising graduate students. We’ll also go deep on the financial decisions you’ll have to make this spring and summer that can literally make or break your finances during grad school. And I’ll give you some guidance on those. The webinar is free and you can find more information and how to sign up at PFforPhDs.com/rising. Thank you for listening through this episode, and a special thanks to those who contributed their best financial advice. Before you go, don’t forget to share this episode with a prospective PhD student, and if you want to join me for the upcoming webinars in my Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School series, you can find more information at PFforPhDs.com/prospective/ and PFforPhDs.com/rising.

Outtro

35:28 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 3 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and increasing cash flow. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Pursuing Your Passion in a Financially Healthy Manner

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This episode is a podcast swap! Emily’s guest is Dr. Stephanie Schuttler of Fancy Scientist. Emily and Stephanie interview one another on the financial challenges of a career in wildlife biology and how to pursue your passion while preserving financial balance and health. They discuss the necessity and prevalence of volunteer and pay-to-play experiences in wildlife biology and how to have realistic expectations about the job availability and compensation at various levels of education. Stephanie is an expert in careers in wildlife biology, but this conversation is applicable to PhDs who are following their passions into many other competitive fields.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Stephanie: In this field, so much is about those experiences. So if you really want those pay-to-play experiences, because, I mean, some of them are super cool, you could focus more on getting into a school that’s more affordable and do some of those things rather than go to a really expensive school.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 9, Episode 3, and today Dr. Stephanie Schuttler of Fancy Scientist and I are publishing a dual interview! Stephanie is a wildlife biologist-turned-science communicator and expert in careers in wildlife biology. We have a great topic: How to pursue your passion in a financially healthy manner. Stephanie gives the financial and career lay of the land for wildlife biology, a popular and competitive field that requires volunteer and pay-to-play experiences prior to being admitted to graduate school. Even completing a graduate degree in wildlife biology doesn’t necessarily lead to the type of job young people dream about when they enter the field. Sound familiar? Stephanie and I discuss how to limit the financial risk of pursuing a career in a field that you are passionate about.

I have some exciting personal news, which is that I finally received my full vaccination course against COVID-19! I have to say, it was tough to watch my friends and acquaintances who have university and hospital affiliations receive their vaccinations over the last several months while I was waiting for them to become available to my age bracket in California. But my turn finally came. I am ecstatic that my parents are visiting us this week, whom we have not seen in person since November 2019.

01:51 Emily: Prior to COVID, as you likely know, I gave in-person seminars and workshops at universities. I honestly wasn’t sure how my business would fare without being able to travel and with universities facing the uncertainty that they did early on. As it turned out, in the 2020-2021 academic year, my speaking services in the virtual format were more in demand than ever, particularly this last spring. I feel really, really fortunate about that! My calendar is now open for engagements in the 2021-2022 academic year. I am of course offering virtual events, which I assume will continue to be popular. I’m not sure if professional development events and conferences are switching back to being in person this year to any degree, but if they are and I am asked to present, I will certainly consider it. I am over the moon about how I have adjusted my offerings for early-career PhDs this year, which you can check out at PFforPhDs.com/speaking/.

02:53 Emily: First, I got honest with myself about my most popular seminar, The Graduate Student and Postdoc’s Guide to Personal Finance. The Guide is my comprehensive overview of multiple personal finance topics. I was trying to cram it into 90 minutes, but it really is a two-hour seminar with Q&A. It’s great for the end of a workday, not so much for a lunch hour.

03:15 Emily: Second, I clarified the topics for my in-depth seminars, which are financial goals, investing, debt repayment, saving, and cash flow management. Each of these seminars comes in a one-hour lecture and Q&A version or a two-hour workshop version. The workshop version includes the teaching from the lecture version plus spreadsheet templates, worksheets, and/or small group discussion prompts. These seminars work well as stand-alone events or part of a series.

03:45 Emily: Third, I took my tax seminars off my slate of offerings. This is honestly a big risk for my business because my annual tax return seminar was second to The Guide in popularity and always drew my biggest audiences. The preparation of an annual tax return and calculating estimated tax on fellowships are my audience’s most universal financial pain points.

04:10 Emily: However, I am not leaving you in the lurch with respect to tax education and assistance. Stepping back from giving live seminars on this topic actually enables me to scale the delivery of the help. In place of these live seminars, I am licensing access to my pre-recorded workshops on the same topics. I have been offering these workshops for the past several years, and I know that they are even more effective than live events in guiding graduate students and postdocs to their goal of an accurate tax return and up-to-date income tax payments on their fellowships. Please keep these workshops in mind as we draw closer to tax season for 2021. If you would like to book a virtual or in-person event with me or recommend me to your graduate school, postdoc office, or graduate student association, the best place to go is PFforPhDs.com/speaking/. From there you can learn about all my seminar offerings, read reviews from previous event hosts and attendees, view my speaking fees, and schedule a call with me to discuss your event. I look forward to partnering with you this year to deliver high-quality, high-impact financial education to the early-career PhDs at your university, in your association, or at your conference.

Book Giveaway Contest

05:29 Emily: Now onto the book giveaway contest! In June 2021 I’m giving away one copy of The Automatic Millionaire: A Powerful One-Step Plan to Live and Finish Rich by David Bach, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community Book Club selection for August 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during June will have a chance to win a copy of this book. The Automatic Millionaire was one of the first personal finance books I ever read, and it had an enormous impact on my financial mindset and behavior. The path to becoming a millionaire is not necessarily quick or easy, but it can be simple and automatic. I can absolutely credit the key strategy that this book teaches as the reason my net worth is as high as it is today. I hope this book effects a similar result for you. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at emily at PFforPhDs dot com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of June from all the entries. You can find full instructions at PFforPhDs.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Stephanie Schuttler.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

06:49 Stephanie: Hi, I am Dr. Stephanie Schuttler, and I am a wildlife biologist, and now I’ve turned a science communication entrepreneur. A brief background of myself is that I kind of stumbled into this career. I didn’t know I wanted to be a wildlife biologist until my last year in college when I decided to study abroad and I randomly chose a wildlife management program in Kenya. So that changed my life. And I knew from there that I had to go to graduate school. So I got some experience doing three different types of internships over the course of three years. And then I went to graduate school to get my PhD at the University of Missouri, where I spent close to seven years there, followed by one short postdoc and one long postdoc, lasting, probably about, honestly, seven years. Yeah, so my short postdoc was at Missouri and my long postdoc was at the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences where I got to work on a lot of camera trap stuff that I talk about today. Yeah, and now the last part is I started my own business last year. I’ve been blogging for the past few years and I officially made it a business last year where I spread knowledge about science communication, I educate people, I started kids’ programs, and then of course I help people in their wildlife biology careers.

08:20 Emily: Fantastic. What is the name of your business?

08:23 Stephanie: A Fancy Scientist.

08:25 Emily: Great. I’m really excited to speak with you, Stephanie, today because are subject is kind of, you know, the finances of pursuing a career in wildlife biology, but it’s a little bit more general than that really, because we’re really talking about how to stay sort of financially balanced and healthy while you’re pursuing a passion that is not necessarily, or immediately, lucrative. And in fact might, you know, you might be paying for, in the form of your education, you might be paying for career experiences. So that’s kind of our general topic. So even if those of you who are coming to the podcast are not in wildlife biology, like still stick around because this is going to be generalizable information.

09:03 Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. I would even add that our field can be more lucrative in terms of going to graduate school than other fields. Like I’ve heard about people who are getting their PhDs in English and their TAships get paid just so poorly. So a lot of the experience and advice here will definitely transfer over.

How People Develop a Passion for Wildlife Biology

09:25 Emily: Yeah. Let’s talk more about specifically how wildlife biology is positioned because it’s a science field, of course, which you might immediately think, oh, like you make money in science, of course. But on the other side of it, it’s a very competitive field and people follow it because of long-held passions. So let’s talk more about that. Like how do people develop their passion for wildlife biology and pursue that?

09:47 Stephanie: I think people develop it usually from a young age. That’s what happened for me. I always loved animals and I love nature. And like I said, I didn’t discover it until a career as later on. Like when you’re young, people always say, like, why don’t you become a vet if you really like animals? So I didn’t know it was a career option. Some people do, but when you track back to like, why people want to do it, it usually has to do with those experiences of being outside in nature when you’re young. And actually a lot of wildlife biologists, a lot of them start off like hunting and they just spend a lot of time outdoors. So I think that a big reason why people are so attracted to the field is that they think they will be spending a lot of time outside.

10:35 Stephanie: And this is definitely true for some careers. It depends on what level of education you have, and of course, what job you have. But in general, the more education you have, the less time you spend outside. It’s like an inverse relationship. And you know, we get really cool experiences. A lot of us get to travel. Of course, some of us get these really close interactions with animals that regular people can’t have, or even just accessing different types of places. Like some of the field sites I’ve been to would have been difficult to visit as a tourist and some of the experiences you have. So yeah, I think that’s what’s really attractive about it. And you’re right. It’s really interesting because there’s so much push for STEM education and especially getting People of Color and girls interested in STEM because our field is not very diversified.

11:33 Stephanie: And a reason to advocate for STEM careers is often actually like finances, that it’s a really financially beneficial career. But again, it totally depends on what you do, and wildlife biology is not very lucrative. And it’s just simply because there’s not a lot of money in wildlife and conservation work. A lot of our employment is nonprofits. The universities and, I mean, universities, you can definitely get paid well. And any of these jobs you can get paid well. But in general, if you think of like disease research, there’s going to be so much more money from the U.S. government and other sources to invest in like medical research than there is in saving wildlife. So, that’s really the big difference. But I think most people go into it because they love it so much. And that’s what I always said. I knew I wasn’t going to make a lot of money, but I loved it so much. So that’s why I went into it.

12:38 Emily: It’s so important to go into these kinds of career choices with your eyes wide open as to what the possibilities are, including the financial possibilities. So it sounds like people, maybe from the time they’re children, have a very like romantic idea of what this career is going to be, but the reality does not necessarily line up with that, especially as you advance further and further.

12:57 Stephanie: It’s interesting though, that you said that about like the romantic version, because I have a book, Getting a Job in Wildlife Biology: What It’s Like and What You Need to Know. And I had a review on there recently, it wasn’t a bad review, it was a four-star review, so it was good, but it was a parent that bought it for her daughter and she read it first, and with the intention of getting it to her daughter. And after she read it, she was kind of like, I’ll leave it up to my daughter to read. And her review was all about how realistic I was. And, and that’s exactly why I wrote it because people have this really romantic view of what wildlife biology is, like myself growing up, I saw Jane Goodall. And I mean, Jane Goodall, isn’t really considered a wildlife biologist. She’s more of a primatologist, but still that’s what you imagine it to look like, or Steve Irwin. And the reality is you’re not doing those types of things. So I pride myself on telling the truth, and I don’t want to dissuade anyone from entering this field. I just want them to know like what it’s like going into it.

Volunteer and Pay-to-Play: Are They Really Required?

14:01 Emily: So, one thing that I learned from our prior conversations is that in your field, it’s very common for people to have to do volunteer experiences or even pay-to-play experiences, to get into graduate school, to get a job, to advance. And this is not necessarily as common in other areas. So could you please tell us more about what, you know, what does pay-to-play mean? What are the kinds of volunteer experiences that people may be required to have? And are they really required?

14:30 Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. This is a really hot topic right now. I personally think that you cannot get into graduate school without having some sort of experience. And in order to get that first paid experience, honestly, you really need experience for that. And you can, I would say you can get it in college if you volunteer with a lab and you get college credit for it. So that’s essentially not totally volunteering. And there are some work-study programs in colleges as well, but really to get your first experience, you need to volunteer. And that’s just the unfortunate reality of it. And this is a big problem because it discourages diversity from our field. So, I’m in no way, like advocating for these experiences. I just feel like that’s the reality of the situation. So there’s lots of experiences. And even our museum, when we had interns in our lab, we did have money for some of them.

15:27 Stephanie: And I constantly applied for grants to get money to pay interns, but they don’t come through. So either like I would have people email me and be like, I’m so interested in your research. Can I help you out? Or I would have a lot of research to do, and I would come across people and offer them experiences to help me with this. And there are exchanges in other ways. Like I write them letters of recommendations and I invite them to be on journal publications and stuff like that. But yeah, we can’t afford to pay for everyone. So it’s hard to deny people experiences who want them. But also, the pay-to-play thing is that some experiences are so desirable that they can afford to charge for them. And I do think there are some sort of scammy experiences out there where they profit off of it, but there are also legit scientists who are working in another country and they have to pay for the field site and the food costs and things like that.

16:35 Stephanie: So I’ve seen job advertisements where you get to maybe go to like South Africa for a summer and you have to pay to stay there. And they mention that it just covers the field costs and they’re not making money off of it, but still, I know a big reason why I got certain opportunities was because of my experience in Kenya. I had a study abroad program and an internship in Kenya. And Kenya was, it really was volunteering because I did get paid, but I got paid a Kenyan salary. And then I did have to pay for half of my airfare. So it ended up being a year where I didn’t make anything. And yeah, if I didn’t have those experiences, then I would have not had like my graduate school experience of studying forest elephants. So if somebody who comes from a financially disadvantaged background really wants to do something like work internationally, honestly, it’s really tough because those experiences are more desirable and people are willing to pay for them.

17:42 Emily: Yeah. You outlined a couple of reasons why these experiences exist. It really sounds like the field is in a bind. There’s not enough funding coming in for all the work that needs to be done, sort of from above, but from below, from the people coming up the ranks, there is an eagerness for people to do the work, even if it’s on a volunteer basis, even if they have to pay out of pocket for it. But it sounds like this just comes back to a funding squeeze, right? And the field being so popular and competitive. Those things combined have set up the conditions for this system to develop. And I agree with you. It sounds nightmarish, actually, for someone who doesn’t come from a financially advantaged background. And it’s a little bit like, you know, in the recent, I don’t know, last decade or two, there’s been so many more conversations about unpaid internships and the elimination of unpaid internships in most fields because they’re not great for anybody. Especially people who, you know, can’t afford to do them. But it sounds like that hasn’t quite touched the field of wildlife biology yet. Because these are essentially unpaid internships like on steroids, because you actually have to, in some cases, pay to access the site or what have you.

18:53 Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s, like I said, that’s a huge conversation right now. And I think it’s especially difficult for nonprofit organizations because, you know, they obviously always need more funding. And they have been under attack, like posting unpaid internships. And I understand both sides. Like I understand that people need to get paid for their time, but I also don’t think it solves the diversity problem because if you’re just taking experiences away in general, then anything that is available is going to be so, so, so competitive. So it’s like a lose-lose situation.

Financial Risks in Pursuing a Wildlife Biology Career

19:32 Emily: Yeah. It definitely sounds like that. Okay. So we’ve kind of talked about the downsides to the field of kind of relying on these volunteer and pay-to-play experiences in the pipeline, at the beginning of the pipeline. To get into graduate school, you need to have some kind of experience. To get that first experience that maybe you get paid, well, you have to have an unpaid experience before that point. There are downsides to the field of like losing out on having great scientists, budding scientists who could be part of the field, maybe being turned away for financial reasons. What are the financial risks that are posed to an individual who tries to pursue a career in wildlife biology?

20:06 Stephanie: I think, I mean, just going into debt or living paycheck to paycheck constantly, that’s like super common in our field, but I know many people who have gone into debt for these like pay-to-play experiences or to do a volunteer experience, but they don’t have the means to cover themselves financially while they’re doing that experience. And it affects your entire life. The opportunities, I guess, like they kind of go away, but they manifest in different ways. So like once you get your PhD, well actually after your master’s too, like I talked about my friend, Rebecca, a lot of times you have these temporary opportunities, and it’s really difficult to get things lined up financially. And it’s a very demanding career. There are always things that you could be doing for your career, especially once you get to like the science route of doing more research-based things, then you are going to want to be working on your publications and things like that to get you that next job. So you don’t necessarily have the time to be able to like take on another job. So I mean, it’s really just that you have the potential to go into debt. People do go into debt, and then they don’t have the finances saved to be able to keep going, in the future, if opportunities don’t line up.

21:40 Emily: Yeah. This does remind me of the general like pursuit of the tenure-track in some fields where you need a PhD to get, and your goal is to get, a faculty position, but the employment opportunities, if you don’t end up, you know, landing that faculty position, are non-existent, very rare, not very lucrative. And so it’s like, yeah, if the stars completely align and you get that job that you’re going for, it all works out. But for most people who pursue that, it’s not going to work out. And so you have to realize that going in, it doesn’t mean you can’t like, you know, shoot for the stars and everything, but you need to have some kind of nets and backup plans and safety. Because the stats are that a tenure-track position is not going to work out for the vast majority of people who pursue one. And so it seems like there’s, you know, an analogy here with the field, the career in wildlife biology,

22:33 Stephanie: Do you see any additional downsides or risks?

Debt and Opportunity Cost: Loss of Compound Interest

22:38 Emily: I mean, mentioning, going into debt like you did is absolutely perfect. But to me there’s another layer on top of that, which is the loss of opportunity to get compound interest working for you. So if you go for many years in your twenties and into your thirties, maybe doing temporary work and underpaid work, and maybe you’re accumulating some debt, or even if you’re not, but you’re not doing anything like on the saving, investing front to get ahead with your finances, then that’s lost time. That decade or so is lost time. And it’s possible to make up for lost time, but you just have to save so much more later. But what if you end up, maybe in your thirties, in a job that pays, as you mentioned before, $50,000 a year, when you were hoping for something that paid more or was more stable or something like that? Like that’s where you are, and that’s what you have to live off of and save off of after that point and still try to make up for that lost time. So I think that people can be financially successful at all different kinds of salary levels, but like we were talking about earlier, you just have to be realistic about what the opportunities are, the salary opportunities are in the field that you’re pursuing, and also in your backup plans, if that primary plan doesn’t work out that well. So yeah, the loss of time to get compound interest working for you is the main one that I see there.

23:48 Stephanie: And I think that people in our field don’t think about that stuff at all and even, or I know they don’t think about that stuff at all. And even like talking about the loss of time with your first starting salary. You really don’t have at least a good first starting salary. I had a starting salary in graduate school, but like how most jobs work is you get your first job, and that’s your starting salary. And then that’s like the bar for you to negotiate a higher salary every job that you get. So for myself, when I graduated from my PhD, I was, what, thirties, close to 30. And you know, my husband who is an electrical engineer, he had been in his career for, for several years already. So not only are we getting paid little when we’re starting out, but we’re starting out later in age.

24:45 Stephanie: And another thing is people don’t do retirement investments either. So my dad grew up poor. His dad died when he was younger, and he had his brothers to take care of. So he was always like financially worried, and he always had us read financial books and stuff like that. So I’ve had a retirement account since legally you can have one, I think maybe 16 or 18. But yeah, like we’re not taught that. Like, you’re right. Like nobody’s talking about this stuff. And they, like, my friends would be like, well, I’ll get it through my job, when I get my first job, but some of my friends didn’t get their first jobs until they were close to their forties, and your retirement compounds. And that’s really where the money comes from. So if you are waiting a while to start that, then you’re missing out on a lot of that income compounding.

25:42 Emily: Yeah. And I think, again, to generalize, like this is something that I see with graduate students all the time, postdocs all the time is that there’s an optimism about what the future salaries are going to be post-PhD, post postdoc. And I certainly have the same optimism for them. But the other thing that happens as you age, generally speaking, is that your life gets more expensive in a variety of ways. You know, maybe you buy a house, maybe you have a child, maybe you have to take care of aging parents or other family members, like, so even if you do see a post-PhD, jump in salary in whatever field that you’re in, it might not go as far as you were hoping that it would. And so to me, my attitude is more like, you know, work with what you have now, that is, try as best you can to live a sort of financially balanced lifestyle and do some of that retirement investing or paying off debt or whatever it is that your goal is while you still have a lower salary, while you’re still in graduate school. And yes, like I do hope that that higher salary comes, the permanent job comes and it will all be much easier later, but just in case it’s not, let’s get started now so that you have that time, as we were talking about for, you know, your money to compound, or at least your debt to not compound as much.

26:54 Stephanie: Absolutely.

Commercial

26:57 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Heads up, fellows: The next quarterly estimated tax payment deadline is Tuesday, June 15, 2021! This one always catches me by surprise because quarter two, strangely, is only two months long, while quarter four is four months long. Yet, a full quarter’s payment is due on June 15th. If you aren’t having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary and haven’t yet filled out the Estimated Tax Worksheet in Form 1040-ES, now is the time to do so. The worksheet will tell you how much you can expect your tax liability to be this year and whether you are required to pay estimated tax. If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please join my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that postbacs, grad students, and postdocs have about estimated tax, such as what to do when you switch on or off of fellowship in the middle of a calendar year. Go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax to learn more about and join the workshop. Now back to our interview.

Advice for Pursuing a Financially Risky Career

28:13 Stephanie: Okay. So knowing that this is a financially risky career, what do you think, like, what’s your advice to people who want to pursue it in like, they’re absolutely sure they want to do this and maybe they don’t have a financial safety net or they don’t come from a really, really wealthy background? What can they do?

28:33 Emily: I think the first thing to acknowledge is that you, as an individual, are a whole person and that you have needs and desires that are perhaps independent of this career in wildlife biology that you want to pursue, or any kind of competitive and perhaps not lucrative kind of career. And what I mean by that is that I would love for you to pursue like your career kind of passion, but just as you’re doing that, keep in mind that you still have needs as a person. You have financial needs, you have relational needs, you have spiritual needs, health needs, all these things matter as well. And I think there’s a tendency for people, especially when they’re younger and in their twenties and so forth, to drive hard at their career goals at the expense of some of these other areas of life. And it will catch up to you, eventually. You will reach age 30 or age 40 and realize that you have some deficits or dearths in these other areas, because you were trying to sort of suppress your needs and desires in those areas for so long to pursue this career.

29:35 Emily: So I don’t think that’s healthy and don’t do it. So try your best. Right? And so we’re going to talk about the finances, but there’s all these other areas of life as well. So don’t forget that you’re a whole human and you’re more than just your future career or job in wildlife biology. So that’s kind of the first thing to keep in mind. So, as we’re talking about sort of financial health and financial wholeness, as you pursue these careers, I do think you need to create your own safety net and your own financial security and backup plans as you go. And so that may mean that it will take you a little bit longer to get to graduate schoo, for example, if that’s like your next goal. Maybe you might take an extra year instead of, you know, taking a one or two year gap, take a three or four year gap between finishing undergrad and that graduate degree, for example. And that’s to build up more of your own financial security in the meantime.

30:25 Emily: And so one of the things we talked about earlier, these pay-to-play or volunteer experiences, is it possible for example, for you to plan around that and say, I’m going to have a summer job? Maybe it’s not even a job, I’m going to have a summer experience, and it’s going to cost this much money, or I’m going to be paid this much, but my lifestyle needs are this much. And how can you save in advance for that? And what kind of job can you have when you’re not actively engaged with these experiences? How can you pursue a job and a career that will allow you to have the experiences, but still give you some financial stability in the meantime? And one of the things I end up talking a lot about, and that I’ve learned a lot about from people I’ve interviewed on my podcast is regarding money mindset and limiting beliefs.

Navigate Limiting Beliefs

31:06 Emily: And so a limiting belief that someone in the field of wildlife biology might hear, and they might even get this from your work, again, the realism, is I can only ever have a temporary job and I can’t have a job the other seven or eight months of the year, because that’s not in my field, whatever. But maybe there is a way for you to build a job or an income or a career in that part of the year and still have that balance where you want to do, you know, these special experiences in the summer or the spring, or what have you, but still be making money in the other part of the year. And honestly, I think one of the most accessible ways is what you and I are now pursuing, which is entrepreneurship. So maybe there’s a way to have, you know, set up your own stream of income.

31:45 Emily: Maybe you work on it more intensely in one part of the year and less intensely in the other part of the year. And you can create that balance for yourself to still allow you to pursue the experiences in the career that you want to have, but still be making money in the other part of a year or a little bit, you know, while you’re having those experiences still. So that’s one idea. The other one is about this debt, you know, either going to have experiences or on the flip side, maybe not paying down student loan debt that you’ve accumulated in the past. I mean, we’ve had a student loan debt crisis that’s been building and building ahead of steam for a long time, but especially in the last decade. And, you know, in the last decade, I think many people have come to realize, you know, your student loans, your education, especially at the bachelor’s level is not necessarily an investment.

32:30 Emily: It’s not automatically an investment. You can’t pursue any bachelor’s at any price and, you know, be sure that that’s going to pay off. Same thing for graduate degrees. You know, your home is not always an investment. There are things that used to feel safe that used to give you a path to the middle class that are not there, they’re not guaranteed any longer. And so I think you have to be really, like, in thinking about pay-to-play experiences as an extension of student loan debt. So like I’m taking out student loan debt to pursue my education. I’m taking out some kind of personal loan or consumer debt to pursue this experience that I want to have to get into graduate school. You can think about them sort of analogously. And so one rule of thumb that works for student loan debt that maybe you could extend to, if you’re going into debt for these experiences in wildlife biology, is don’t take out more debt than one year, your first-year starting salary.

33:20 Emily: That’s like the rule of thumb for an undergraduate degree. And so if you’re, you know, going into a little bit better or forgoing salary to pursue these volunteer pay-to-play experiences, can you keep the debt level down to one year of your current salary or lower? Is that possible? So like, so yes, pursue these experiences, but make sure you’re not giving yourself carte blanche, right? To spend and go into as much debt as you might want to. You’re sort of putting some checks and balances on yourself along the way to make sure that you’re not getting in too far over your head.

Consider the Cost of Your Education

33:56 Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. And actually one of my big, I have a lot of advice for people, something I think that people should do is not worry about the school so much. Like a lot of students are super obsessed with like, what’s the best graduate program or what’s the best college to go to. And I honestly think that students should really, especially at the college level, focus on getting in the school that’s going to cost them the least, because like you mentioned your degree doesn’t necessarily pay off. If you’re going to invest, you know, $120,000 for a college degree and you can get the same result with one that’s going to cost you $10,000. I mean, I actually regretted for a long time, my experience because I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t know what I wanted to be.

34:49 Stephanie: An, I even applied poorly to schools. I applied to like only Ivy league schools because that’s what I knew. And the only schools I got into were my local state school and other schools that cost like $30,000 a year or a semester. And I was like, okay, I’m just going to start from my state school because I don’t know what I’m doing. And then it also felt weird to dorm at my state school, which is like 20 minutes down the road from me. So I stayed with my parents and I regret not having the college experience, but I also love that I don’t have debt and that it was, I mean, I paid, I think a thousand dollars a semester for school. So in the long run it definitely was worth it.

35:34 Stephanie: And in this field so much is about those experiences. So if you really want those pay-to-play experiences, because I mean, some of them are super cool. You could focus more on getting into a school that’s more affordable and do some of those things rather than go to a really expensive school. And this is true for graduate school, too. And graduate school in science, you do get paid, you get a stipend, but you get paid different amounts according to the different schools and even according to the different programs. So I was actually not in the wildlife biology program for my PhD, or in the department. I was in the biological sciences department, and they had a fellowship. So I was paid a lot more and I didn’t have to TA. And that played a huge role in me deciding to do that as opposed to another program where I would have to TA and get paid less.

36:31 Emily: I think that’s a great point. Both at the graduate and the undergraduate level. It’s more about what is the actual work that you could be doing? Who can you be working with? Rather than maybe the name of the school. And of course the finances come into play as well. Because again, I think my basic point here is like shore up security for yourself as you go as best you can to keep you on this route, as long as you want to be on it in pursuit of a career in wildlife biology. So that if you get to the end, let’s say of your PhD and you realize, okay, I can get the permanent job. I’ve achieved all my goals. Everything is wonderful. Well, you have some good, you know, financial, a nest egg behind you perhaps, or at least not as much debt as you could have been in.

37:15 Emily: That would be great. But if you get to that point and you say, Nope, I’m going to exit this career now. I’m not going to have the type of job that I thought I would have. I’m going to have some other type of job. At least you won’t have the financial regret behind you of, oh my gosh, I pursued this school, that school, they didn’t pay me well enough. I spent too much on this experience. Yeah. I think what you said is perfect is like focus more on the experiences. If you want to go for, you know, a less expensive college education, but save your dollars for some pay-to-play experiences that are really high impact, then that makes a lot of strategic sense to me.

FIRE: Financial Independence, Retire Early

37:45 Stephanie: Yeah. And another route, I think we talked about this in our chat, you talked about an acronym FIRE.

37:51 Emily: Yeah. So FIRE stands for Financial Independence Retire Early, or Early Retirement.

37:57 Stephanie: Yeah. So you could either do that or do a sort of hybrid model. And I interviewed somebody who did something kind of similar to that, inadvertently. He didn’t, I mean, he didn’t retire early, but he had 20 years in a corporation that was a really good job. And he participated, he volunteered in the Citizen Science programs on the weekends and in his spare time. And his corporation actually paid for him to go back to school. So he did get a degree in environmental sciences. But when he was finished and on the job market, he got the second job he applied for. And I could not believe that I was like, oh my gosh. Wow. And it was because of those volunteer experiences, he had so much experience that he was like leading groups and organizing events and stuff like that. So that all translated really well.

38:48 Stephanie: So you could start off in a more lucrative career and volunteer with conservation organizations, with Citizen Science, and make enough money then where you can take a less lucrative career. Or if you’re a real go-getter in today’s world, like, I mean, there’s really not a financial limit to like what you can do online and with entrepreneurship and stuff like that. Like, it is tough to do, but it’s, I mean, there’s so many like millionaires who are six-figure earners from selling courses online, and in practical stuff, too. Like I remember I was listening to this one podcast, this woman, she had a podcast all about goats and she made six figures just from selling a course on how to raise backyard goats. And she had like, she had like different courses, too. So it’s like, you know, you just don’t think like, oh wow, like you can make a lot of money off of information and goats, but you can. So there’s a lot of opportunities out there.

Combining FIRE with Passion Careers

39:52 Emily: Yeah. What I think is really interesting about the FIRE movement and combined with like these sort of passion careers, whether it’s wildlife biology or whether it’s maybe some other things you want to get a PhD in. So if, you know, the most intense people in the FIRE movement, the goal is to retire in about 10 years, not retire necessarily, but become financially independent in about 10 years. That would be like a fast goal. So you get out of college when you’re 22, you know, by 32, if you’re really intense about it and chose the right career, maybe you were an engineer or something like that. You could be retired by that point or, you know, financially independent, optional to retire at that point. Now that is a route to free up the entire rest of your life from age 32, to whatever, to do anything that you want.

40:37 Emily: As long as your lifestyle expenses don’t creep up to the point they exceed your investments’ ability to support you. And so that is where you could spend the next 50, 70, a hundred years of your career working in wildlife biology in any kind of capacity that you can achieve knowing that your finances are already taken care of. And that’s a very unconventional route, right? But I think it’s something that maybe more people should consider if their passion is in a field where it’s so difficult and so competitive to get a full-time position. And, you know, I think it also goes back to the realism discussion we’re having earlier. You know, maybe there’s something about wildlife biology or whatever field that you’re in that you would like that romantic version, but you are not so enamored with the reality of having a career in that field version, and maybe becoming financially independent allows you to experience the romantic versions of the career, you know, of rather the field to a great extent without having to commit to having to earn in the career and doing maybe the work that’s not quite as exciting to you.

41:43 Emily: And so that’s, I don’t know, it’s a very like interesting idea. I actually did meet someone one time at a financial bloggers’ conference who had reached financial independence in his early thirties through, whatever, he’s like a finance guy or something. And he was telling me, oh yeah, I’m considering going back and getting my PhD in some completely unrelated area because I can do whatever I want now, essentially. It doesn’t matter if I get a stipend or not. I can support myself. He can pursue anything he likes. And so I’ve never really like discussed this idea with anyone in terms of PhDs before, but I think it’s, I don’t know. It’s not the most outlandish thing.

Wildlife Bio: Career or Lifestyle?

42:19 Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. And I actually, I mention this in the last chapter of my book is, like you said, maybe you don’t want it as a career, too. And maybe that’ll actually be more satisfying to you. So I had this talk with this very prominent biologist and he was talking about his friends, how like they’re traveling all over the world and showing him all these cool pictures and all these cool places that they’ve been to. And one of the countries that he said was a country that he does a lot of work in. And I was like, you work there, you’re like always traveling there. And he’s like, yeah, but I am in like conference rooms, I’m in meetings. I’m not going to see like this beautiful waterfall or go to the beaches. So again, it might be that romantic version of like, once you get higher up with your education, you’re going to be doing like more administrative work.

43:10 Stephanie: And you’re going to be writing scientific papers and writing grants and stuff like that. And, to be honest, that’s sitting behind a desk writing. So I just want people to like really understand what it’s like and what they’re getting into. And, yeah, like, if you’re really driven because you want to travel or have cool experiences with animals, there are Citizen Science vacations, Earth Watch does this, that you can pay for that give you those opportunities. Like you can pay to work with a sea turtle biologist and help him tag turtles or help them tagged hurdles. And so you can still have these experiences. But you’re not the one leading them, which actually might be nice because then you don’t have to worry about like all the logistics of setting everything up, and yeah. And managing people and things like that.

44:03 Emily: Yeah. I love that idea. And it’s just kind of thinking outside the box, right? Like how can I get to have this lifestyle that I want? Does it have to be my career, or can it be something I do on the side as you’re building a career in another area? Or I’ve retired from my career. And so now I can do it afterwards. I think that’s a really exciting idea that you can be in wildlife biology in more ways than just a full-time professional scientist.

44:32 Stephanie: You’re so right, too, about your, your life choices changing when you get older. I talk to a lot of young people who are like, I don’t need to live in a big house. Or maybe not necessarily live in a big house, but you do want more things as you grow up. Like you want more stability and things like that. You don’t want to be moving around all the time. And like, even myself, I didn’t want to have children, but yeah, like I want to be stable and I want to stay put and not going from here to there all the time.

45:02 Emily: Yeah. What I often repeat on my podcast is money gives you options. And so really what you’re doing when you, for instance, take out a bunch of student loan debt and then go into even more debt for these, like, pay-to-play experiences and eventually go into graduate school. And you’re there for a long time. And then, you know, all the things that you might have to do to get this final career that you are going for, if all that while you’re just accumulating debt and you’re not putting money into retirement, you’re basically hamstringing yourself into this career has to work out, or I am sunk, you know? And instead if you try to pursue it, but in a more balanced manner in terms of finances and other areas of life, you can get to that point, maybe when you’re done with your PhD and say, okay, I have options. I can still pursue this career that I’ve been going for. I can get another type of job because you have built up some financial stability along the way. So it gives you options. You don’t feel like you’re stuck in just the one type of job that you’ve been going for that whole time, which might not even be available to you.

46:06 Stephanie: Absolutely.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

46:08 Emily: Okay. Well, as we’re wrapping up the interview, Stephanie, one thing that I ask all of my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

46:18 Stephanie: I think probably the best is, and this is where I always tell people to start out in this career, is to look at the jobs out there now that they ultimately want. And I have a tool on my website for this it’s called the Job Tracker. And you basically just like write down, or you copy and paste, like what jobs you like, how much they pay, what your education is. And then, in my course, I actually, I also have a budget planner too. And like, see if you can afford that career and see if it works out to be the type of lifestyle that you want. So really like copy the salary and the location, and look up houses in that area and how much they cost, and see if this fits into your lifestyle. But again, like really get an idea of like, where you want to end up. So there’s no surprises and you can pivot more easily along the way if you decide, okay, I love this, but I really want to make more money. Which is okay, because, like I said, some of these jobs, they pay very little and it can be difficult to live with those jobs. I knew somebody who had what other students thought was like an absolute dream job, but she was just so sick of not making money.

47:38 Emily: Absolutely. I love that advice. It goes along with the general theme of like being realistic. Okay. So where can listeners find you, Stephanie?

47:49 Stephanie: They can go to fancyscientist.com or just Google, fancy scientist I’ll come up and they can contact me any way. I check all my messages. I’m happy to answer their questions. And I love hearing from people.

48:02 Emily: And what is the title of your book?

48:05 Stephanie: Getting a Job in Wildlife Biology: What It’s Like and What You Need to Know.

48:10 Emily: Great.

48:11 Stephanie: Very blunt. Well, thanks so much for doing this. I had a good time talking to you and I learned a lot.

48:17 Emily: Thank you. It’s exciting to me to learn about a new field and kind of wrap my mind around like particular financial challenges within that field.

Outro

48:26 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me! 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This Grad Student’s Finances Changed During the Pandemic

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In this episode, Emily interviews Eun Bin Go, a PhD student at the University of California at Los Angeles. Eun Bin reflects on the financial changes she made during 2020, and which ones of them will stick post-pandemic now that she has developed more DIY skills. Emily and Eun Bin discuss Eun Bin’s housing decisions during her time at UCLA and why she moved out of subsidized student housing. Eun Bin shares the tricks she used to max out her Roth IRA for the first time in 2020 and how she discovered she can contribute to UCLA’s 403(b). The strategies Eun Bin uses to keep her finances and time management on track might be unique to her, but are a great example of how powerful it is to know yourself and find the strategies that work well for you.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Eun Bin: Honestly, things like IRA, investing, like 403(b), 401(k), all those things. Like if we are new to it, it can feel really overwhelming. Like if I read an article about this topic, like three years ago, I would be Googling like every other word, like, what is this? What is that? And it can be a lot of information. Just taking the time to digest through it slowly, I think, gave me the confidence to go for it. Because if you don’t know what it is, it’s hard to put your money into something you don’t know a lot about, right?

Introduction

00:35 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode 10, and today my guest is Eun Bin Go, a PhD student at the University of California at Los Angeles. Eun Bin reflects on the financial changes she made during 2020, and which ones will stick post-pandemic now that she has developed more DIY skills. We discuss Eun Bin’s housing decisions during her time at UCLA and why she moved out of subsidized student housing. Eun Bin shares the tricks she used to max out her Roth IRA for the first time in 2020 and how she discovered she can contribute to UCLA’s 403(b). The strategies Eun Bin uses to keep her finances and time management on track might be unique to her, but are a great example of how powerful it is to know yourself and find the strategies that work well for you.

01:34 Emily: I was very excited to discuss the effect that 2020 has had on Eun Bin’s finances, as it’s not a topic I’ve covered much on the podcast over the past year. It’s difficult to speak about positive financial changes while so many in the U.S. In the world are grieving, sacrificing, and experiencing hardship. Yet, I think the financial course of Eun Bin’s year is likely relatable to people whose income has not faltered during the pandemic. The American personal savings rate spiked during the pandemic. According to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, the personal savings rate at the end of 2020 was approximately double what it was at the end of 2019. So what is a grad student whose income has stayed steady do with her extra cashflow, at least for the time being? That’s what Eun Bin shares with us in this episode. I hope you’ll use this listening as an opportunity for a retrospective on your own finances over the last year.

Book Giveaway Contest

02:36 Emily: Now it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In March, 2021, I’m giving away one copy of I Will Teach You to Be Rich by Ramit Sethi, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for May, 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during March will have a chance to win a copy of this book. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at emily@pfforphds.com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of February from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. The podcast received a review this week titled helpful advice to help you take action and optimize your personal finance. The review reads, quote, I share this podcast with all the academics I know. It is exciting to hear frank and relatable advice that can be actionable rather than just theoretical. A lot of the personal finance space doesn’t speak to the nuance of the academic life, but Dr. Roberts covers a wide variety of helpful topics. I found her work when I got a fellowship and was confused as to how to do my taxes, but I use the information across my whole financial life. A must-listen for every grad student. End quote. Thank you so much to AK for leaving this review. My subtle plot to lure grad students in with talk about taxes and then help them improve their finances overall seems to be working. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Eun Bin Go.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:11 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Eun Bin Go. She is a graduate student at UCLA. We have been long-time Twitter correspondents. This is very exciting to get to talk with her live. And, you know, when she came to me wanting to be on the podcast, we kind of talked it over and decided on a theme of 2020, because Eun Bin decided that 2020 was the year that she was going to get her finances in order. And 2020 turned out to be a crazy year, as we all know. So it’s around this theme of kind of like pandemic life and stay at home order life and all of that, of course, that has extended into 2021. We’re recording this in February, 2021. Still going on. So it’s kind of still 2020, right. So, Eun Bin, I’m so happy to have you on the podcast and, you know, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the listeners?

05:05 Eun Bin: All right. Yeah. Thank you, Emily. It’s really exciting to be on your podcast after being an avid listener for about a year and a half. So thanks again. Thank you again. Hi everyone. My name is Eun Bin Go and I am a fourth year PhD candidate in biochemistry at UCLA. And like Emily said, this is a year or 2020 was a year that I really decided to be more intentional about my finances and how I invest, how I spend. And so I’m really excited to discuss that here today.

Housing Decision at the Start of Grad School

05:38 Emily: Yeah. So we’re going to go through kind of a few different financial areas in the course of this conversation. And the first one is starting with housing because as, well, we’re both California residents. I recently moved to California, but we all know that housing is a major, major, major expense in California. So how have you made different decisions around your housing in 2020?

06:00 Eun Bin: Right. So I started at UCLA in summer of 2017, and my first year of grad school, I just decided to go apply for the on-campus graduate housing at UCLA, reasoning being that I didn’t have too many months before I committed to UCLA and was about to start my program. So there wasn’t really much time to do all the research into different housing options. So that was like the simplest option for me, I suppose. And I thought, well, a lot of other first year, my classmates were also going into graduate housing. So I thought it would be a good idea to just go into graduate housing with my cohort members so that I can spend more time with them. And it was pretty close to campus. It’s about a three-quarter mile to my lab and because I don’t have a car, I don’t drive. Like I can’t drive, so I can’t live too far away. And so I thought, well, pretty close to campus. Like price was about like 15, like mid 15 hundreds, but apparently that’s a pretty good price for how close it was to campus. So I was okay with that. Sure, I’ll go with that. So that’s where I lived for about one year, my first year of grad school.

07:14 Emily: And did that housing choice live up to your expectations? Did it help you bond with your peers? And did you like living that close to campus?

07:21 Eun Bin: So living close to campus, I think had its pros and cons and the con is actually something I’ll mention later about why I decided to move a bit far away. I was okay with the price per se, like with grad school, like spending more time with my peers, because it’s not really like a dorm life as in like a college, like you live in your own room. I didn’t have a roommate. I was in like a one-room studio by myself. So that made it a bit harder to, I guess, connect with my fellow, like apartment-mates because I’m in chemistry and not all chemistry students were in the same housing. It’s really hard to connect with students from other departments, as you might know, if you don’t have any other connections outside. So that didn’t really work out, but it was nice that at least so it’s close to campus. And I just wanted time to settle in, focus on my first year of classes and research and not have to worry too much about housing stuff. So I think it worked out overall well. Yeah.

Housing Journey After the First Year of the PhD

08:24 Emily: Yeah. I think when it’s available to first years, it makes a lot of sense to them to move there. But you lived there for one year and then you moved somewhere else. So what was the choice you made after that?

08:35 Eun Bin: Right. So after my first year, so in the summer of my second year of grad school I have just been, not constantly like every day, but once in a while I would browse like the Facebook housing group and other like listings, local listings. I would constantly look to see if I can find something a bit cheaper that’s still in a reasonable distance now that I have settled it. And I like found my rhythm in grad school, if you will. So I did come across in the summer, July of 2018, exactly after one year, a listing for just one room in a house for $700. And that happened to be at a place that was pretty accessible via bus from just outside of my lab to the house. So I thought, Hm, it might not be a bad idea to move there.

09:32 Eun Bin: I mean, it’s about like seven, $800 cheaper. And this is, I guess, now is a good place to bring up one of the cons for me in terms of on-campus housing is that if I live too close to campus, I’m, it’s just me. Like, this is my problem, but I’m terrible at establishing like physical boundaries with lab. And it’s always so tempting to just go check in what’s going on in lab, even if it’s like 11:00 PM or 6:00 AM, like if I’m awake, I’m thinking about lab. I just want to get myself there. And that was not the best for like, just like work-life boundaries. And so that’s what made me, I guess, decisively move to the other place. In addition to the lower housing costs is that I wanted sufficient boundaries so that when I’m at work, I would be a lot more focused. And if I am far away and the bus doesn’t run anymore at midnight, I can’t just go to lab because I want to, for example. And I have to be sure to get my work done by the last bus so that I don’t end up having to like walk or Uber cause that also costs money and takes a long time. If I’m going to walk like four miles, it was a four mile distance if I were to walk that, for example.

10:50 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s an interesting like way to help enforce the boundary. I don’t know that I’ve actually heard of like, you know, distance from campus as a time management tool, but it sounds creative. And did it work out, you know, did it play out according to your expectations?

11:06 Eun Bin: Oh, absolutely. Right. So I was sure because the last bus stops after like close to 11:00 PM. So there were never times I could stay beyond that. And I definitely was more focused with the time that I had in lab in school, knowing that it’s going to take a lot more effort for me to find my way back home and then find my way to lab for example. Yeah.

11:33 Emily: Yeah. And how about the price? Because when you said that you were dropping your rent by about 50%, I’m thinking what is wrong with this place? Was there anything that you encountered like that?

11:44 Eun Bin: Not at all, no. It was just a one room. It’s probably just big enough to have a tiny desk and a tiny bed, nothing. It’s a tiny, tiny room, but that was honestly enough for me. I just needed a desk and a bed. Nothing else super fancy. And then there was a bathroom outside my room, but then there was only one other lady who lives in this house and then she had a master room with a bathroom inside. So that bathroom was pretty much mine. So it felt I had a lot of privacy. Good distance, nice roommate lady who rent me her room. So there were no issues. Yeah.

Additional Housing Moves During the Pandemic

12:23 Emily: But, you said you moved in 2020 as well. And so why did you give up that housing situation?

12:29 Eun Bin: Right, so only because of the pandemic when we got the notice that, Oh yeah, we absolutely cannot go into lab for however long it may be. I figured, well, do I hold my place here and keep paying rent while I can’t go to lab? Because there was no reason for me to like live in LA cause my family, my parents are in Orange County, in Fullerton, not too far away from UCLA. So if I were to move back with them, which I did, it’s like, is it worth holding onto this place? Because as you might know, like housing around UCLA is very, very competitive and I had a really nice deal, but that is a question I had to wrestle with. Do I keep paying rent and then hold this place? Or do I just give it up and then start over when we are allowed to go back to school and when will that be? We had no idea when it was February, March. We have no idea what time that would be. Right.

13:24 Emily: Yeah. I think a lot of graduate students have been in that exact situation this year. You’ve told me I can’t come back to campus. Why am I here? Why am I paying massive rent in this area? Okay. So, so are you still with your parents or have you found another living arrangement?

13:38 Eun Bin: Right. So I moved back to my parents’ place in March and I came back out to LA in June in 2020 when the school said, Oh yeah, we can let grad students work in labs now just under limited time. But, and the students have to come and shift, but still students can come in. So that’s when we got that notice, that’s when I started actively looking for a new housing arrangement because someone else, as I had worried about, moved into that place, so that place was no longer available. So I just had to find something else. And my priorities this time was I wanted something that’s in a walkable, reasonably walkable distance, just in case like I can’t take the bus, for example, it’s too dangerous to take the bus. I had to have a way to get to school and I can’t drive because of a condition that I have. So I had to find a place where I can walk. Yeah.

14:38 Emily: And so, where are you now and what rent are you paying?

14:42 Eun Bin: So right now I’m living in an apartment. My roommate is a lady whose children have all moved out of this house. So they had a room open and I was able to move in here. This is housing that I found from a UCLA housing Facebook group. And I’m paying now 1300, which is about 600 more than what I was paying in my earlier apartment, but it’s reasonably close to campus. I like the location, my roommate. And my roommate is also very generous with like her sharing her supplies in the kitchen and things like that. And sometimes she cooks for me occasionally. So that’s a nice bonus to have. Yeah.

How Did Housing Changes Affect Your Finances?

15:32 Emily: I feel like I’m experiencing like whiplash, like thinking about all these different amounts that you’ve paid for housing. How has this affected your finances over these last few years with these big swings?

15:43 Eun Bin: Mhm. Right. So like my first year of grad school, when I was living on on-campus housing I knew that based on talking to the grad students at UCLA, all I knew was that they, the pay is good enough for you to live in on-campus housing and be able to like eat and do a little fun things occasionally. So after hearing that, I thought, well, then I’ll just pay the rent that I have to pay. And with the rest, like feed myself and maybe go out once in a while. And so that’s the time in my graduate career where I did not think about money at all. I paid what I needed to pay and that was it. And whatever I had left, I did whatever I felt like kind of.

16:31 Emily: Yeah. Kind of a conventional grad student mindset. Right? All I have to do is pay bills. If I do that, I’m good.

16:37 Eun Bin: Exactly. Right. Yeah. And like, like retirement account, like what is that? Investing like, Ooh, do I even have enough money to give that a try? I didn’t really consider that seriously at the time. And so food, rent, and the remaining money, I just kept. Right.

17:01 Emily: And then when you moved to the much cheaper place, did you make any changes how you were managing your money?

17:07 Eun Bin: Ah, yes. The one big change I would say. So, even though I was paying less in rent, I still treated my life as if I were paying the equal rent that I was paying at the more expensive on campus housing. So with the 600 or so that I had left over every month, I put that into a high yield savings account. And that’s money like, that’s a way for me to just like put money away so that I don’t feel tempted to like just spend it all away immediately. So that was like my first real attempt at saving if you will.

17:44 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s a great little psychological trick is if you manage to reduce a bill, I mean, reducing it by multi hundreds, hundreds of dollars a month is very impressive, but whatever you can manage to do, as you just said, don’t think about that as now available spending money. Divert it towards whatever purpose is, you know, your real priority, which, okay. So you’re building up cash savings during that time. And then, and then you have this short period when you were living with your parents. And now that you’re back paying a higher rent price, how are things going? Are you still saving that little different, that smaller differential? Or how are you thinking about it now?

Weekend Side Hustle Toward Roth IRA Contributions

18:18 Eun Bin: Right. So I guess there are some things that have changed. I also, in addition to moving to a more expensive housing in 2020, I also got a weekend job that pays about 700, 800 a month. So I guess that kind of helps offset that a little bit, but again, I still treat my real rent in my brain as being in the mid 15 hundreds. So every like excess of my rents up to 1550, I just put away. Before I had my Roth IRA account, I just would put it in my high yield savings account. But now I just funnel that to my Roth IRA account for a regular contribution throughout the year.

19:07 Emily: Awesome. Yeah. Well, we will come back I think to the Roth IRA in a moment, but now I’m curious about this weekend job that pays so well. Is this something pandemic-related?

19:19 Eun Bin: No. So it’s like a high school tutoring and like mentoring job that I just do on the weekends, every Saturday. So it’s just helping students with various topics. Mostly I do like chemistry and calculus, high school level calculus, and just like providing peer support for high school students.

19:41 Emily: That’s very interesting. And is this a W-2 job or are you a contractor, self-employed?

19:46 Eun Bin: Yeah, it’s a W-2 job. Yeah.

19:49 Emily: Wow. Okay. That sounds fantastic. I also tutored for a little bit after college, it seems like it’s a kind of a natural job for a grad student to have, but it’s very interesting that you have it as a W-2 job. And how do you feel like that is like balancing with your role as a graduate student? Like, are you able to keep up, you know, good time management? Does your advisor know about this?

20:11 Eun Bin: My advisor, I may have mentioned, I mean, he does know that I go home every weekend and sometimes like, he takes me to the train station. Like before the pandemic, he would give me rides to the train station. So he is aware of the fact that I go home and I’m not in the lab during the weekends. And this is another one of my psychological tricks, I guess. I need to physically distance myself from whatever that I’m tempted to do, whether if it’s lab, I need to move myself far away so that I’m not tempted to like, keep thinking about it. Oh, should I go into lab and do this or not? So going home on the weekend is another way of like, enforcing like a work-life balance that works for me. Yeah.

How Else Has COVID Changed Your Spending?

20:50 Emily: Yeah, wow. Okay. So you definitely, weren’t going to be in lab anyway, so it’s not affecting that. That sounds really good. Okay. So what are the other ways that like COVID social distancing has changed your spending? I mean, I know it has for mine, but how has it affected yours?

21:05 Eun Bin: So because when I moved back into my parents’ place I did pay them a little bit, a couple hundred dollars just because they were feeding me and housing me, but not like what I was paying out here. But besides that, I really had no other expenditures really. I can’t travel. I can’t go out to eat in restaurants. And really, I would say besides housing, food, just eating out was a majority of my other non-housing expenses. So I naturally got to save a lot in that regard.

21:42 Emily: So you have been eating out less during the pandemic. Because I know that some people are still eating or, you know, getting takeout or whatever the equivalent is quite a lot.

21:50 Eun Bin: Yeah. Right. So, yeah, I pretty much like never ate out for like, at least the first month where it was like really picking up, like the news is like encouraging, Hey, people stay home. Like don’t do so many things outside. And so like early on, like I barely even left the house, for example. Yeah.

22:11 Emily: Okay. So yeah, you just had a lack of outlets for your spending. Like you know some people have been like shopping more, like shopping more online or like maybe they’re subscribing to a few more things for like streaming entertainment. Did any of that have an uptick for you?

22:24 Eun Bin: Yeah. I know a lot of people like signed up for a new Netflix account and stuff for like watching a movie, but I did not do that either. And I didn’t really notice any differences in spending online shopping necessarily. I mean, I didn’t do too much of that to begin with, and it’s not, it’s just not something that I started doing more necessarily, I would say. Yeah.

22:46 Emily: Okay. So you’ve just been stacking up your cash throughout much of the pandemic because yeah. The spending outlets don’t, don’t interest you. And what do you think, like in the future, at some point when spending opportunities are available again, are you going to go back to your prior level of spending or have you made any changes that you’re really happy with and you want to have stick?

23:08 Eun Bin: Yeah. So something that, some things that I realized as a result of, I guess, like my lack of outlets for spending is that I started cooking more at home and that, that truly led me to like I guess, meal options that are cheaper to prepare and also are healthier because I can actually pick what I decide to put in my food instead of if I were eating out, I can’t necessarily do that. And that’s something that I’ve come to appreciate a lot more, doing more cooking healthier. And I think just because I realize this doesn’t mean I’m never going to go out to eat again. Of course, if like friends come over or there’s a special occasion, of course, I will go out to eat once in a while. But I think I’ll try to be, I guess, more conservative in my spending on restaurant dining, I would say. Definitely. Yeah.

24:08 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like the pandemic in that respect has given you an opportunity to expand your skillset, expand your repertoire of, you know, menu items and so forth. And so it’s really kind of, you sort of up-skilled yourself in the cooking department so that the eating out differential is not so attractive.

24:24 Eun Bin: Right. Mhm.

24:24 Emily: Yeah. Gotcha.

Commercial

24:26 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. Taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold your income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2020 tax return, which are available at pfforphds.com/tax. I hope you’ll check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which you can find links to from PF F O R P H D s.com/T A X. It would be my pleasure to help you save time and potentially money this tax season. So don’t hesitate to reach out. Now, back to our interview.

Starting a Roth IRA in 2020 (for 2019)

25:34 Emily: So you mentioned earlier that at some point along this way, you started on a Roth IRA. Can you tell us about deciding to start that and what you did and also when that was?

25:45 Eun Bin: Alright. So honestly, so I have to say, I did not know about Roth IRA. I didn’t know what a Roth was, what IRA was, any of that term until I have chanced upon one of your articles describing compound interest, that was very informative and very eye-opening. So I’m very thankful for that.

26:03 Emily: We will link that in the show notes. I think you’re probably referring to…

26:06 Eun Bin: The $5,000 initial investment one, the compound interest.

26:10 Emily: Yeah, like what you can save during grad school has a $1 million impact on your net worth. Yeah. That’ll be linked from the show notes.

26:19 Eun Bin: Right. So when I first saw that I was like, no way that can be like seven-digit figure. Like, but when I actually did the math out, it’s actually true. I was like, wow, that’s amazing. And that was like the first catalyst I would say. And the second was when there was the announcement that the IRS has delayed the tax filing deadline to July of 2020 for the year 2019. And that also gave you more time to contribute to your 2019 Roth IRA if you desire. And honestly, that delay is what made me think, huh? Should I actually start this thing? It actually gave me time to think about, because that was not on my mind at all before that. And so after having done some more research, like seeing more articles that you had on Roth IRA, and I knew that I had W-2 income and that I had money in my savings account that I can just funnel over to a Roth IRA account when I realized that that’s when I decided here, let’s go for it and start contributing. Yeah.

27:26 Emily: Okay. So if I have the timing on this right, in 2020, you started contributing to your 2019 IRA. And for the listener, just anyone who’s not familiar, you can contribute to your prior year IRA contribution limit, which is currently $6,000 per year. You can contribute up through tax filing day. So, normally, April 15th. In 2020, it became July 15th. So you took, you saw that extra three months as an opportunity to reevaluate and have a little bit more time to fill up that 2019 IRA. So did you end up contributing like a lump sum or did you start dollar cost averaging or what was your strategy?

28:01 Eun Bin: Yeah, so I had about, about like two years worth of IRA contributions from just my savings in a savings account. So I actually had more than $12K in my savings account at the time. So I just, it was like a one lump sum deposit for both the year of 2019 and 2020 that I made in mid-2020 to my Roth IRA.

Roth IRA Contribution Strategy in 2021

28:22 Emily: Wow. All right. So you maxed out two years at once. You’re all set through the end of your, you were all set through the end of 2020 now we’re in 2021. And is your strategy the same? Are you saving up cash and doing another lump sum contribution or have you started contributing on a regular basis?

28:38 Eun Bin: Yeah, so I have a direct deposit set up where I put in about 500 every month into my Roth IRA account. And that should come out to exactly 6,000 in one year. Yeah.

28:48 Emily: Yeah. So you’re on track to max out in 2021 as well. Yeah. Incredible. And did you, so you explained how you went about this in terms of saving up cash and so forth. Were there any other like tricks you want to pass onto the listener about yeah, how to start this process of contributing to an IRA or how to contribute more than they have been before?

29:11 Eun Bin: Right. So, honestly, things like IRA, investing, like 403(b), 401(k), all those things. Like if we are new to it, it can feel really overwhelming. Like if I read an article about this topic, like three years ago, I would be Googling like every other word, like, what is this? What is that? And it can be a lot of information. But I think honestly your resources have been very helpful for me. You have a lot of resources regarding Roth IRA. And so going through them one by one, like slowly digesting, Hey, what’s an IRA, what’s Roth? What are the different types of investment, I guess, products available to you? Just taking the time to digest through it slowly, I think gave me the confidence to go for it, because if you don’t know what it is, it’s hard to put your money into something you don’t know a lot about, right? So I think part of the solution was just to spend the time to learn about this whole IRA, retirement savings investing. Yeah.

30:12 Emily: Yeah. I’m really glad to hear that you used some of my resources and that, that like worked well for you of course, in combination with some other things. Yeah, I agree. It can be really daunting. And I do correspond with a lot of people who, I have, if you subscribe to my email list, there’s a certain point in the sequence where I ask you, what’s your biggest challenge right now in your finances. And if I can help you, I’ll try to, and probably, I don’t know, at least 25% of the responses are, I want to open an IRA and I just don’t know what to do. Like I know it’s important, but what do I do to get from here to there? So I want to mention, I do have a resource available for people who are in that position.

30:48 Emily: I think you probably opened your IRA before I created this resource. So you didn’t actually use it. But it’s inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. So if you go to pfforphds.community and sign up for the community, there’s a challenge in there in the forum called open an IRA, or like open your first IRA, something like that. And so I wrote out like a seven-step process, like every sort of decision point where you need to, you know, figure out what you’re going to do and we need to learn about, and I have resources inside the community like webinars and things I’ve written that sort of support that. So step one, okay. Here’s what it is. Here’s a support item. If you’re not sure about this yet, go watch this or go read this. So I’ve had great feedback from people who have been through that seven-step process and have opened and funded their IRA at the end of it. So if anyone is still sitting on the sidelines, you have money like Eun Bin did, you know, this could be a resource available for you. So pfforphds.community, if you want to check that out.

31:41 Eun Bin: And if you don’t have, like, I mean, I made a lump sum because I had money saved up, but honestly it takes us a little as a couple tens of dollars to make the initial investment. You don’t have to contribute all at once, just little by little and you don’t necessarily have to max out. So do what you can. And I think like, as Emily writes in that one article, 5,000, that’s not even like a maximum of one year’s contribution, but compound interest can do a lot of great things to that 5,000.

Transitioning from NSF Fellowship to W-2 Income

32:08 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for saying that. I love talking about investing and I understand there’s actually been another exciting investment change on for you in 2020.

32:19 Eun Bin: Right. So in 2020 is also when I transitioned from my NSF graduate fellowship to TAships so just regular W-2 income. And after having learned about different like retirement savings options, I started looking into like, what retirement options does UCLA provide for its employees? And I did find that they provide like the 403(b) and so with this, I decided to also contribute like 5% of my pay to this 403(b) account. Honestly, this was, I mean, Roth IRA, I would say is like my primary retirement saving vesicle, but I just wanted to, I guess, try it out. That’s what got me into this. And this is also a way for me to, now that like restaurants are opening back up and there are more opportunities to spend, that’s just another way of me just putting money away so I can’t take it out. That’s how I deal with like managing my savings, I guess, like similar to, I need to physically move myself away from the lab so I don’t think about it. It works the same way for me with money as well. Yeah. So.

33:40 Emily: Absolutely, me too. I love the pay yourself first strategy. I use it myself. I recommend it everywhere. And it’s just because I’m a bit of a spender also. So like, I just want that money, like out. I’m a forced saver, but a natural spender. I think I’ll put it that way. I like saving, but I have to put systems in place to make sure that I do it or else I’m really not going to.

33:58 Eun Bin: I’m exactly the same way.

34:01 Emily: Yeah. That’s so exciting that like you had, you know, you found out that you had the 403(b) access. And this is a good tip for anyone else at UCLA or anyone at any of the UCs, I would imagine. And also just anyone anywhere to check to see if you have access because you know, I don’t think many graduate students can, you know, save the full 6,000 for the IRA and then be looking for their next like savings opportunity. But you have, especially with this like awesome side job, I mean, it seems like you have, you know, plenty of pocket money already, so yeah. So it’s worth looking into, sometimes you’ll be surprised and the answer will be, yes, you do have access to the 403(b). And switching from fellowship to being on W-2 has also come with some tax changes, right?

34:44 Eun Bin: Right. Right. So when I was on the NSF, I know this is a very hot topic that you talk a lot about Emily, like quarterly taxes and filing. So for me, because my parents also run their own businesses, they have to do their own quarterly taxes. Thankfully, like, the CPA who helps with my parents’ finances, they were kind enough to help with mine as well. So that made it a lot less stressful for me. And in terms of like saving, because I know you mentioned in one of your articles, like have a designated savings account for your quarterly taxes. But what helped me in that regard was my actually side job that I had. Because of that excess income I didn’t necessarily, I guess, have to withhold my own taxes, I suppose and whatever I had to pay, I could just pull that from my weekend job money that I had. Yeah. That was enough to cover all my taxes. Yeah.

35:46 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like you, with that additional income, you had enough sort of flexibility in your cashflow to be able to pay that somewhat larger tax bill in a given month. That’s awesome. It’s definitely not the case for most grad students. And that’s why I think that saving up in advance strategy is so critical for, I mean, for most people, right? All these strategies are, if it works for you, great. If it doesn’t like move on from it. And I think one of the themes that, you know, you’ve identified in this interview is that, you know yourself, you know your psychology, at least in a few of these areas, right? You know, what’s going to work for you and you set up systems that help you stay within the boundaries that you, that your like higher thinking self wants you to be in.

36:27 Emily: Whereas like in the moment you might not make that decision, but that’s why you have the boundary in place. So I think that’s an awesome takeaway for the listener to kind of figure out what those tricks are that, you know, are going to work really well for you. They may not be the same as what other people do. That’s okay.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

36:41 Emily: So as we wrap up Eun Bin, thank you so much for this interview, it’s really interesting to hear what’s been going on in 2020 for someone else. I feel like I haven’t had that many interviews that sort of acknowledge that we are in the middle still of a global pandemic. So as we’re wrapping up, would you please tell us your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it could be something that we have already touched on that you want to emphasize, or it could be something completely new.

37:04 Eun Bin: Yeah. So I think based on my experiences, my advice for early career PhD students is number one, do this before you apply. Sign up for Emily’s website, they are very helpful. I wish I had discovered them way earlier in my career. Definitely. And second, like if this is like your first time making like regular income, which it was for me until after I graduated college it can feel very overwhelming to have just a lot of cash than you’re normally used to. So make a budget of like your essential I guess like costs that you need to pay and then like just develop a budget for yourself. And what I did was whatever that was above that beyond the budget, I just put away into a savings account that I can’t touch. But I guess Emily did mention also, but be open to, I guess, experimenting a little bit with your finances and figuring out a strategy that works for you.

38:11 Eun Bin: And do take the time to learn about like saving and investing. I know when you first get into it, for me, it was like, Oh, like investing in like the stock market or like mutual funds. Like what are those things like? How does it work? And like, are you sure that I won’t lose my money this way? I had a lot of these concerns, but I think there’s a lot of really informative articles. I like the one Investopedia, for example, they have a lot of really informative articles that are friendly to beginners and combined with Emily’s various articles. I think it is a steep learning curve but it is something worth putting your time into, I would say. Yeah.

38:53 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. And the thing about learning about investing, especially learning about passive investing is there is an initial upfront investment of time of a few hours or 10 hours or 20 hours. Maybe if you want to be really like in depth. But after that, it’s very, hands-off like, it is not something that you have to continually be learning about and maintaining for the rest of your life. You make this initial upfront investment of 10 hours. Read one book, you know, read a couple of my articles, whatever you’re probably going to be pretty set for like a very, very long time on just that amount of information. And that’s the nature of passive investing. And so you have to find the time to make that initial push, but once you’re over that, it’s like, it’s like smooth sailing. It’s so easy after that point. Yeah. Great. Well, Eun Bin, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It’s been a pleasure having you.

39:39 Eun Bin: Yeah. It was a really great time talking about these things with you, Emily. After being a listener for a very long time, it was really exciting to be a guest on this podcast. And I hope this would be helpful for the other listeners.

Listener Q&A: Making Smart Financial Decisions

39:56 Emily: Now, on to the listener question and answer segment. Today’s question actually comes from a survey I sent out in advance of one of my university webinars this spring. So it is anonymous. Here is the question: quote, what smart financial decisions should every PhD student be making with their money? End quote. This is an amazing question. So thank you anonymous for contributing it. I have to acknowledge upfront that not every PhD student is going to be able to make the decisions that I’m about to list as smart financial decisions. And that’s okay. I hope in those cases, that being in a PhD program overall is a smart financial decision for your longterm career. Maybe it’s not a short-term smart financial decision because you’re not being paid that well, but I still hope it is a longterm smart financial decision. Okay. First smart financial decision over the course of your graduate degree is backup, before you get into graduate school, choose a PhD program that will support you well financially so that you can do the rest of things that I’m about to list.

41:05 Emily: Okay, one smart financial decision that you should make as a grad student, but it’s certainly not unique to graduate students is to not abuse your credit cards. Use your credit cards, if you use any, exactly as you would use a debit card and never put a charge on it that you could not immediately pay off with cash from your checking account. That certainly means not carrying any credit card debt, but it also means not giving yourself an advance on your next paycheck through floating charges on a credit card. For further explanation of why this kind of use of credit cards is dangerous and how to get out of it, listen to my episode last week, season eight, episode nine with Elana Gloger. Another smart financial decision during grad school is to prioritize your savings rate. You might direct that savings rate toward different purposes throughout the course of graduate school.

42:00 Emily: Maybe it’s going to be cash savings. Maybe it’s going to be investing. Maybe it’s going to be debt repayment. But whatever it is, getting that savings rate higher, maybe even in the 10 or 20% or higher ranges, that’s a really smart financial decision. And you can work that savings rate up to those levels that I just mentioned by attacking both sides of the equation, both the earning more and the spending less sides. Now of course, an individual graduate student might have more opportunity on the earning more side, might have more opportunity on the spending less side. It depends on your personal situation, but you can reevaluate both sides. Start with the easier one for you, but eventually get around to thinking about how you might do the other one. On the earning more side, you know, I think you should be consistently applying for outside fellowships that might increase your stipend or for smaller grants that will add on to your stipend or your funding package.

42:59 Emily: Grad students can also try to generate a side income. In many cases, that’s not to say necessarily a side job or a side hustle, which are not accessible to all graduate students, but some kind of side income. On the spending less side, a lot of people are attracted first to tweaking and cutting back in the small and variable expenses in their lives. But that’s actually not where I recommend that you start. I think you should start with the big three expenses that most Americans have, which are housing, transportation, and food, specifically your grocery spending. But start on the fixed side of that. So start with your housing expense to reevaluate is there a way that I can pay less on a monthly basis for housing? Yeah, it might take months or a year to work into that next housing situation, but it’s very worthwhile if you think there is room for reduction right there. On transportation, any fixed expense you can reduce would be amazing. You know, if you own a car, if you have a car payment, how can you reduce or eliminate that? If you presumably pay for car insurance, how could you reduce that expense?

44:03 Emily: Food is the last one of the big three to address. And I suggest that you make long-term sustainable changes to your habits around shopping and eating rather than trying to use willpower in the short-term to reduce your spending. Okay. There are obviously many other budget categories to address after those, but I think you should start with the big ones. Another smart financial decision would be to work the steps in my financial framework. I have an eight-step financial framework that kind of toggles back and forth between building financial security in the form of cash and working to improve your net worth overall through debt repayments and investing. But these things have to come in a certain order.

44:45 Emily: If you go out of order, you can take on more short-term risk. If you want to read more in a lot of detail about my financial framework, you can join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, pfforphds.community, or sign up for coaching with me, pfforphds.com/get-coaching. The last smart financial decision that I’ll recommend is to not languish in your graduate program. Get out as soon as you can. Really overall, the best thing you can do for your finances is finish that PhD and move on to a higher post-PhD income, whether that’s in a post-doc or a real job. I know there are good reasons to stay in grad school longer related to publishing, related to applying for tenure track jobs, but it’s not a smart short-term financial decision. So again, if you think that the extra year or whatever it is in your PhD program is worth the long-term investment, that’s great. But if you don’t see that ROI on the horizon, just get out as quick as you can. Thank you so much to anonymous for submitting this question. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

46:11 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media with an email listserv or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance, for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.