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Student Loan Deferment Shouldn’t Be Your Default

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In this episode, Emily interviews Meagan McGuire, a Certified Student Loan Professional and consultant with Student Loan Planner. Meagan goes over all the pertinent terms of the upcoming modified REPAYE plan, which is expected to join the other options for income-driven repayment plans in 2023. The relatively more generous terms of the modified REPAYE plan, such as the revised payment calculation and the interest subsidy, make it an attractive option not only for borrowers already in repayment but also for those currently eligible for deferment. That’s right! If you are a grad student, don’t default into deferring your student loans after the administrative forbearance ends! Instead, consider whether it’s worthwhile to enter repayment under modified REPAYE. You could potentially avoid all of the interest that would have accrued on your unsubsidized loans during grad school and/or reduce the number of years you have to pay on your loans post-PhD—all for free or a low cost. If you hold any federal student loans, do not skip this episode!

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Teaser

00:00 Meagan: This new REPAYE plan makes deferment look very unattractive for a lot of reasons. There’s not a lot of advantage to deferment anymore. And even if you had a payment kick in, keep in mind it’s a very, it’s a portion of your income. And if you’re closer to, let’s say 35, you know, $35,000 for your stipend, that’d be closer to maybe almost $10, $20 a month.

Introduction

00:32 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 7, and today my guest is Meagan McGuire, a Certified Student Loan Professional and consultant with Student Loan Planner. Meagan goes over all the pertinent terms of the upcoming modified REPAYE plan, which is expected to join the other options for income-driven repayment plans in 2023. The relatively more generous terms of the modified REPAYE plan, such as the revised payment calculation and the interest subsidy, make it an attractive option not only for borrowers already in repayment but also for those currently eligible for deferment. That’s right! If you are a grad student, don’t default into deferring your student loans after the administrative forbearance ends! Instead, consider whether it’s worthwhile to enter repayment under modified REPAYE. You could potentially avoid all of the interest that would have accrued on your unsubsidized loans during grad school and/or reduce the number of years you have to pay on your loans post-PhD—all for free or a low cost. If you hold any federal student loans, do not skip this episode!

02:22 Emily: OK guys, if you’re listening to this in real time, it’s April. You have just weeks or days to finish up your tax return, if you haven’t already. I’m standing by, ready to help you the moment you say you want me to. I have four versions of my workshop on preparing your annual tax return available, covering postbacs, grad students, and postdocs, both US citizens/residents and nonresidents. The last live Q&A call for the citizen/resident versions of that workshop is on Thursday, April 13, 2023. I’m also answering questions for the nonresident version asynchronously, and the deadline to submit those is Tuesday, April 4, 2023, but I might be able to get to some after the deadline as well, we’ll see. I also offer a workshop on estimated tax, which you’ll probably want if you are currently on fellowship and were surprised with a large tax bill on your 2022 tax return. The quarter 1 Q&A call for that workshop is on Monday, April 17, 2023. You can find the links to purchase any of my tax workshops plus tons of free resources at PFforPhDs.com/tax/. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s14e7/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Meagan McGuire of Student Loan Planner.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:02 Emily: I am so excited to have on the podcast today, Meagan McGuire. She is a consultant with Student loan Planner, so we have an actual expert on the podcast with us which is a refreshing change of pace. And yeah, I’m just so excited that Meagan is here because she works for this amazing company called Student Loan Planner, which if you have federal student loans and you’re not already following them, get on their mailing list, get on their socials. They have great, great information. I’ve been heavily relying on them with all the excitement and student loan news recently. Meagan has actually been on the podcast before, back in season seven, episode 13. So if you haven’t yet listened to that you know, some of that information might be a little bit out date because things have been developing. So, we’re going to talk about the new modified REPAYE plan today, which is another one of the income-driven repayment plans. We’re going to explain all those terms in just a second, but that’s the subject for today. So, if you have federal student loans, do not tune out, do not hit pause. This is a crucial episode for you. So, Meagan, thank you so much for joining me. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

05:04 Meagan: Of course, yeah. Thanks for having me again! I love nerding out about student loans. It’s also a very not fun topic. So we will <laugh> we will talk about it as you know, directly and informationally as possible to help you take a nugget of information from this conversation. But yeah, so I’m Meagan McGuire. Prior last name was Landress. I got married last year, so my last name is different now. But I’ve been with Student Loan Planner since 2019. I’ve been doing student loan planning for a while for my whole career, <laugh> pretty much. And I found that it, you know, student loan planning, in specific, like when it comes to financial planning is such a big piece of somebody’s financial plan. And it’s sometimes the first introduction to finance, which is not fun. And so, having an idea of what you should be doing with your student loans can help ease some of that, you know, anxiety or angst when it comes to thinking about money and finances in general. So, I’m happy to be here. Thanks for having me!

06:06 Emily: I love it. Thank you so much! And you have an actual professional designation, do you not?

06:10 Meagan: Yes. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. Yes, <laugh>, I’m what’s called a Certified Student Loan Professional or CSLP. It is a new-ish designation in the financial planning space. I got it back in 2019, very beginning of 2019, when I started with Student Loan Planner. But that just tells you that a professional has the financial planning background along with the specialized education in student loan planning.

06:37 Emily: Yeah, it’s so important. I know that people sometimes get really bad professional advice around what to do with their student loans and that’s why I love following Student Loan Planner. And there are other similar, you know, people who provide similar services. But having that designation is so important because as we’ve learned, there are so many fast moving changes and updates in the student loan world. And so, you really need someone who is up to date. Speaking of being up to date, we are recording this on March 3rd, 2023 <laugh>. So, very important between the time of our recording and the time of this release, maybe there’s been some major upheaval in the student loans world. We don’t know, just earlier this week, a couple student loans cases went before the Supreme Court, but of course we don’t have a decision yet. We’re still waiting on that and many things are waiting on that plan.

Repayment Plans

07:20 Emily: So, actually the subject for today is not the cancellation, which is very exciting on its own. But instead we’re talking about this new IDR plan, or modified IDR plan. So Meagan, I want you to take us back to the beginning with federal student loans because some people in my audience, you know, maybe current undergrads currently in grad school, they may have never had their loans go into repayment. So, they might not even know what the options are. What all these acronyms are? So, can you just tell us what are repayment plans? What are IDRs?

07:48 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah, for sure. So, there are kind of two different buckets of repayment plans or types of repayment plans you can consider when you’re entering repayment in the future. One bucket would be amateurized options, which are kind of like a normal loan, how that would operate where you get a term. So, 10 years, 20 years, could be as far out as 30 years. They take your balance, spread the payments out over that timeframe, and you pay off the whole balance within that timeframe. So, very standard, very normal definition, or you know, way of paying back debt. So, that’s one route. The other bucket are income-driven plans or IDR plans. That is the blanket term for the different income-driven options there are, because there are technically five different income-driven plans available, currently. And so, you know, depending on your situation, your marital status, your income, you know, it could lean you one direction or another when it comes to those income-driven plans. But so far there’s REvised Pay As You Earn as one, or REPAYE. Pay As You Earn, or P A Y E. There’s IBR, income-based repayment, new and old. So, technically those are two different plans. New IBR and old IBR. And income contingent repayment, or ICR. That’s the the laundry list of income-driven plans that are available currently. <Laugh>

09:20 Emily: And, correct me if I’m wrong, but the idea with the income-driven plans is that your payment is recalculated based on a recent income, maybe the previous tax year, for example. And it should, ideally, be lower than what you would have on the standard plan if you were going to opt for an IDR plan. So, you have this lower payment, but it scales with your income. So if your income goes up or down in the future, your payment may go up or down. And the purpose is not necessarily to pay off the loan in its entirety. So, what happens with IDR plans once you’ve been paying on them for a while?

09:51 Meagan: Yes, that’s a great question. So, unlike the amateurized options where it’s designed to pay off the loans during a certain time period, income-driven repayment plans, they are not designed to pay the loans off. They can, mathematically, if your payment is enough to do so over time, but it’s not designed for that. It’s designed to make a payment affordable based on the income that you’re bringing in. And let’s say you’re in a situation where mathematically your payments are never enough to pay off the balance. Well, those income-driven plans all come with a maximum repayment period of either 20 or 25 years. And if you’ve made payments for that 20 or 25 year threshold, whatever balance is left over at the end of that timeframe is then forgiven. So, it really helps people who are never really going to be able to get out from under their loans. No one is ever going to die with their debt <laugh>. They can get on that income-driven plan and go towards loan forgiveness. I hear that a lot where someone will say, “Ah, I’m going to be paying this until I die.” And I’m like, “Ah, check out those income-driven plans. Probably not.” <Laugh> you might be paying for a while but not forever. So, that is a safe haven for those that have large balances in comparison to their income.

11:13 Emily: I think you put that very well. It’s really designed to help people get out from massive student loan balances where their income is not really high enough to support a standard payment on that high debt balance. So, maybe your career plans changed, I don’t know what could have happened. Maybe your education plans changed, something has gone on where, yeah, your career income does not support this. And certainly for people in my audience who are graduate students, maybe they’ve gone through a lot of career shifts in the many, many years they’ve been in higher education. Or maybe they’ve accrued a lot of debt during that time.

Tax Bomb

11:47 Emily: One more question around sort of the technicalities of these IDR plans. Now, I understand that there is what was called a tax bomb at the end of some of these plans. Can you explain what that is?

11:58 Meagan: Yes. So, a tax bomb, that’s kind of the term we use for what happens after the loans are forgiven. So, when the loans are forgiven, there’s a debt that’s discharged. And the IRS sees any debt that is forgiven or canceled or discharged as a benefit to you. So, they tax that as income in the year that it’s forgiven. So, I know that sounds unfair <laugh> that is not fun. So, an example of this would be, let’s say you’re paying for 20 years. You still have a balance of $50,000 at the end of that 20-year timeframe. That is forgiven, yay. But then you hypothetically would be getting a 1099 for that $50,000 that was forgiven. And of course you didn’t pay income taxes on that because that wasn’t part of your income. It was something that was forgiven. So then you have to report that as if you did make it as income and pay income taxes on it. That sounds really scary. But mathematically, if your balance is a lot larger than your income, it can still make sense to go that direction even if the tax implication exists. When we do our planning with folks, we plan out how much we need to save per month to prepare for that. And oftentimes the savings amount that you have going towards that tax bomb and the monthly payment that you have going towards your loans is still a lot less compared to what it would look like if you were trying to pay it off traditionally.

13:28 Emily: Yeah. And I want to note that one of the reasons that student loans have become such a hot button issue, and one of the reasons why these IDR plans have in the past gotten a lot of criticism, is because of the negative amortization schedule. So some people, and what that means is that some people who, you know, you have these low payments available if your income is low enough or if you have enough kids or whatever the calculation is, their payment might be so low that it’s not even covering the interest that is accruing on that loan. And that means that the loan balance is ballooning and ballooning and ballooning over time. So, the plan that we’re going to talk about, I want to say too many spoilers, but it does address this. Okay, so one of these major, major issues with student loans is being addressed. And we’ll talk about that in just a few minutes. But before we get too far off of this basic “what’s going on with student loans” question, I want you to explain what public service loan forgiveness is and how it plays in with these other plans that we were just talking about.

14:23 Meagan: Yeah, so public service loan forgiveness or PSLF for short. It’s not a repayment plan, but it is a program that you can pursue while on an income-driven plan if you’re working full-time in a public service capacity. So this is for those that work in non-profit, work in government, you know, academia is a great example. If you’re working at a public university. You know, or private yeah, it could be private as long as they’re 501(c)(3) status. So public service loan forgiveness, if you make 120 qualifying payments, which means that you’re on an income-driven plan, you make 120 qualifying payments, which shakes out to 10 years if you’re completely consistent, and whatever balance is left over at that time is forgiven. And a really great part about that too is that it’s forgiven tax-free, unlike those income-driven forgiveness paths. So, PSLF can be a really great option for those whose career is in public service. It’s a much shorter timeline than the 20 or 25 years, and it doesn’t have the tax implication with it. So, it’s definitely a great program if it makes sense with your career path.

15:39 Emily: Yeah, and I know probably a lot of people in my audience, maybe more so than the general population, does have plans to work in academia or in government or for non-profits or for other kinds of qualifying employers after their graduate school is done. So, this definitely could factor into the plans for a lot of people. Especially if you do a postdoc, maybe that’ll take a few years at a university or in government and those years count if you’re making your payments, you’re enrolled in the program and so forth. One thing that I do want to note for current graduate students is that you have to be a full-time employee for the payments that you’re making under PSLF to count towards PSLF. So, graduate students are almost always considered halftime employees or less.

16:19 Emily: And so, even if you are an employee of a university during graduate school, even if you are in repayment, that time is not going to count for PSLF unless you’re a very, very unusual case. But if you’re a part-time employee, it’s not going to count towards PSLF, unfortunately. However, I know most people who are in graduate school are choosing deferment in any case, so they’re usually not making payments anyway.

Modified REPAYE

16:38 Emily: So, let’s get into kind of the meat of this new, modified, I don’t know what language you use. The new version of REPAYE. Okay.

16:45 Meagan: Yeah, <laugh>.

16:46 Emily: So, back in August, 2022, the president proposed a new IDR plan. Now that plan has kind of been modified over time, so it’s no longer a new IDR plan, but you explain what is this new-ish plan that we’re looking at?

16:59 Meagan: Yeah, new-ish. Yeah, that’s the right terminology. So, their plan originally was to come out with a whole new income-driven plan. But then a couple things I think happened that made them reconsider that. One is we already have five income-driven plans, so that wasn’t really going to simplify things. It was going to add one more thing to the equation to make things a little more complicated for decisions. And also the Department of Ed did not get an increase in their budget this year. So, they are operating off of the same budget that they’ve been operating off of with all of this stuff going on. So, they’re not going to have the capacity to be implementing a whole brand new plan. I think that is my assumption, <laugh>, why they started to instead of have a a new plan, they’re thinking about modifying an existing plan. And the existing plan that they’re thinking about modifying is REPAYE, revised pay as you earn. REPAYE is one of the cheapest income-driven plans, currently. There are some pros and cons to this plan currently, but some of the modified changes could be very attractive. Especially for those you know, starting out their career coming up who might have long training periods, which we could certainly get into.

18:20 Emily: So, when you were last on the podcast, we talked about very, very broadly, very generally, kind of a rule of thumb around what the ratio is of your student loan balance to your income once you go into repayment. So, for my audience, this is usually going to be post-PhD, perhaps post-postdoc. So, your career income at that point, and what those ratios might be in order for you to really want to consider an income-driven repayment plan versus just going down the standard repayment route. Now I think what’s going on with this modified REPAYE plan is that that rule of thumb has probably gone out the window. It may be completely different now. So, we’ll talk about that in a moment. But I just say this because I want the audience to stick with us because we’re going to be talking about some technical parts of the plan now. But really an IDR might be more attractive to you with this new version rather than in the past. So like, if you have any kind of student loans, I want you to stick with us through this next, like, pretty technical section. Okay, so this modified new-ish REPAYE plan. You said we think it’s going to look like this. How firm is this plan, and when is it going to go into effect, or we think it’s going to go into effect?

19:24 Meagan: It has passed the 30-day commentary period. So, it was officially proposed. There was a 30-day commentary period where folks could make suggestions and now they’re reviewing those. We’re outside that 30 days. So I think the timing of this, I think we are going to hear more information on if what was proposed is actually going to be implemented. I think we’re going to hear about that in the next couple months. So, maybe by May, June. And maybe those rules will be locked and loaded for July, meaning maybe we can enroll in this by the end of the year or early 2024. That is my estimated timeline. Payments, as we know, are not currently enforced, like no one’s making income-driven payments or payments towards their federal student loans.

20:17 Meagan: And it’s all kind of, the start date is contingent on this Supreme Court case, as you had mentioned earlier at the beginning of the podcast episode, which is debating if that one-time cancellation can be done. Can Biden forgive $10,000 or the $20,000 of student loan debt for anybody under those income thresholds? We don’t know yet. And I think Congress and the Department of Ed is waiting to see how this is going to shake out so they can know if they need to make any modifications to this modified proposed repay plan. Or if they want to make it more generous or if they need to take stuff out. So, I think they’re kind of waiting on that, if that makes sense. But we could see this, you know, definitely within the next year, which I think is exciting.

21:05 Emily: Yeah. Okay, so we’re going to talk about the plan as of today’s date, and you know, if there are more changes that come down, you know, stick with Student Loan Planner. Follow them, follow me. I’ll try to make updates to this as well if any major updates are to be had. But we’ll talk about the proposal as it exists today. Okay, so who is eligible once this plan is in effect? Who would be eligible to enroll in it?

21:29 Meagan: So, anyone who has federal direct loans. So, if you, and direct loans, you can tell if you have these, if you log into your studentaid.gov account, you should see literally the word direct in your loan name. If you see something like Perkins Loan or FFEL, which stands for Family Federal Education Loan, those loans in particular are not going to be eligible for this new plan, but they can be if you consolidate them. So, that is an option if you needed to fix that. And that would only be relevant to anyone who had borrowed before 2010. These loans are not issued anymore. So, if you are newer to borrowing or started borrowing after 2010, don’t worry about it. You’re going to have the right loans. And private loans are excluded. This is just for federal student loans.

Payment Calculation

22:20 Emily: Okay, yes, thanks for that clarification. So, one of the things that is being modified about this REPAYE plan is how your payment is calculated. So, can you explain maybe both, but definitely the new way that the payment, if there’s any payment, what it would be?

22:36 Meagan: The current calculation, how they do this is they take your adjusted gross income, usually from your tax return. There’s like an IRS data retrieval tool that they have that they just pull it through from your most recently filed tax return. So, adjusted gross income, that’s not gross, that is your gross pay minus any pre-tax deductions. So, think you know, 403(b) contributions, 401(k) contributions, HSA, FSA, those things are taken out. So, we get our adjusted gross income, then they subtract 150% of the poverty line, which that’s about $20,000, $21,000 for one person, for a family size of one. So they take your AGI minus that 150% of the poverty line, and you get what’s called your discretionary income. And then that is what the payment itself is based off of. And REPAYE is based on 10% of that discretionary income number. The new way that they’re proposing this to be done is similar, still going off of adjusted gross income, but instead of 150% of the poverty line deduction, they want to take 225%.

23:51 Meagan: So, it is a big hike in how much would be part of your discretionary income. So, naturally, that would make anyone comparatively looking at the old REPAYE and the current REPAYE, it would make anyone have a slightly lower payment. It could be worth as little as maybe75 to a hundred dollars a month compared to the current REPAYE plan. It could be a lot more if your income is a lot more. It just depends. So not only that, so that’s one way that they’re going to calculate the payment a little bit less. But the other way that’s going to impact the actual calculation is the portion of your balance that’s for graduate loans would stay based off of that 10% of discretionary income. If you have a portion of your balance that was from undergrad, let’s say you have like $30,000 from undergrad, $70,000 from, you know, graduate school, that would mean 30% of your loan balance is undergrad.

24:52 Meagan: So, they plan on, or the proposal is for undergraduate loans, they would charge 5% of discretionary income. So, you’d have some weighted proportion of the two. 30% of your payment is based on 5% of discretionary income, and the other 70% would be based off of 10%. So, your percentage will certainly vary depending on what your actual weight is for the undergraduate loans. But all in, it does make the payment slightly cheaper for just about anybody. Maybe a lot less for some that have a lot of undergraduate loans. Maybe not, you know, that 5% may not come in if you never borrow it for undergraduate, but that’s currently how it’s proposed.

25:40 Emily: Okay, so let me restate, make sure that I understand.

25:43 Meagan: Yeah, I know that was a lot. <Laugh>.

25:44 Emily: So, of your adjusted gross income, your AGI, which is your gross income minus your above the line deductions, as you mentioned. Things like traditional retirement account contributions. So, you get your AGI, and then a certain amount of that is going to be not used in the calculation. So, it is 225% of the federal poverty line in the case of the new REPAYE plan. I think I looked at that, and for one person it’s about $30.5K. 30 and a half thousand dollars for one person. If you had children, if you had a bigger family, that number would be larger. So the amount that is excluded from your income, that’s not going to go into the calculation is going to be larger. And then whatever marginal amount of income you have above that calculated level, that’s what you’re going to be calculating the payment from.

26:31 Emily: So, it’s 5% from your undergraduate loans, 10% from graduate. If you have both, it’s going to be a weighted combination of the two to make the calculation. So, many people in my audience, I would think probably only have undergraduate loans. And so if they’re looking at that calculation, they’re going to be, you know, it’s 5%, but just of the discretionary income, just of that amount of income that’s exceeding this 225% of the federal poverty line. Okay, I think I restated that okay. Because this is a really important part of this is like, how is this payment calculated?

27:00 Meagan: Yeah. And just a quick note, if that kind of made your head hurt and it made you sick to your stomach thinking about those calculations, we do have a free calculator on our website, studentloanplanner.com, that you can go and plug in your income and it’ll do the math for you. So, there are resources, free resources out there that can help you with that <laugh>. So.

Commercial

27:21 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my tax resources, many of which I have updated for tax year 2022. On that page you will find free podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. The absolute most comprehensive and highest quality resources, however, are my asynchronous tax workshops. I’m offering four tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022, one each for grad students who are U.S. citizens or residents, postdocs who are U.S. citizens or residents, postbacs who are U.S. citizens or residents, and grad students and postdocs who are nonresidents. Those tax return preparation workshops are in addition to my estimated tax workshop for grad student, postdoc, and postbac fellows who are U.S. citizens or residents.

28:37 Emily: My preferred method for enrolling you in one of these workshops is to find a sponsor at your university or institute. Typically, that sponsor is a graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, postdoc association, or an individual school or department. I would very much appreciate you recommending one or more of these workshops to a potential sponsor. If that doesn’t work out, I do sell these workshops to individuals, but I think it’s always worth trying to get it into your hands for free or a subsidized cost. Again, you can find all of these free and paid resources, including a page you can send to a potential workshop sponsor, linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

New Interest Subsidy

29:24 Emily: Now, some other stuff is going on with the interest and how that is accruing and so forth. So, explain what’s going on in the new plan for the interest.

29:30 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, yes, the interest subsidy. So, this is another really big deal with this new proposed plan. So, just as you had mentioned previously, one of the big, maybe downsides or just factors of being on an income-driven plan is, you know, if you’re on an income-driven plan, you’re going for payment affordability, you’re going towards loan forgiveness, most likely. So, your payment could very well not be enough to be covering even the interest that’s charged per month. And that would mean with a student loan debt your interest that’s not paid would be accruing on the balance. This is different than capitalization. So, it’s not actually being added to the balance and then interest is charged off of that new balance, thankfully. Student loans grow in a simple interest format. But it still accrues on your balance. So, that means your balance is growing as you’re going towards loan forgiveness, which really gives a lot of people some heartache because that’s not normally how debt works. <Laugh>.

30:38 Emily: And contributes to the tax bomb we were talking about earlier.

30:42 Meagan: Yes, exactly. So, that gets to the meat of this. So, this subsidy with the proposed new revised REPAYE plan, they plan to have a 100% interest subsidy, which means it would not allow the balance to grow at all, even if you know, it should have been based on the regular rules today. So, that’s really big. It’s big for a few reasons, not just for people who are going towards forgiveness. And this is an important note that I wanted to mention earlier. I just remembered now, these income-driven plans don’t have to be the forever plan for you. Like they don’t have to be the long-term plan, but you can use them as a tool, especially in the years where you’re not making a lot of money. And if this new REPAYE plan is approved as it’s proposed, it would be a huge benefit to you to be on this new REPAYE plan.

31:37 Meagan: Because even if your income’s really low, even if your payment is calculated to be zero a month, which is possible, as long as you’re in repayment on that new REPAYE plan, your balance cannot grow. That is different if you go into deferment, which is allowed if you’re in a training program. So, that’s something to definitely consider. And I know that was something we wanted to talk about here in a bit too, but the a hundred percent interest subsidy is a big deal cause it keeps the balance growth at bay. It can’t go higher than what it is, you know, at its current principle and interest today, which is great. And so, that helps reduce the future tax implication in the future and it can help maybe people with lower income now but plan on paying the loans off later to keep the balance as low as possible.

32:30 Emily: Yeah, thank you so much for saying that that way. Now when you’re saying a hundred percent interest subsidy, what I understand about this is that if you are making a payment, your payment goes against the interest that accrued that month first. If you’re making a larger payment than just the interest that’s accrued, then the principle comes down. If you’re making a payment that’s less than the interest that has accrued, you’re still making that payment, but then the government will be paying the other portion of the interest that’s accrued. Is that what you mean by 100%? So, it’s like it’s never going to grow, but that doesn’t mean you’re not paying interest.

33:06 Meagan: Yeah, that’s a good point.

33:06 Emily: You could be paying interest. It’s just not going to grow and grow and grow.

33:09 Meagan: Yes. Yeah, basically, you could look at it as an interest only loan where you’re just paying interest but the balance isn’t going to be going down, but it’s not going up. So that’s a good thing, <laugh>.

Undergrad Versus Grad Timeline

33:21 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. So, let’s compare this quickly to what many people in my audience may be familiar with because if they’re, let’s say currently in graduate school, their loans are probably in deferment. And if they had subsidized loans from their undergraduate degree, subsidized doesn’t mean that no interest ever accrued. It meant interest accrued and then the government paid it completely for you. So, it’s very similar to that. It’s just that it might not be paid completely if you are making some kind of payment as well, versus if you’re in deferment and you have unsubsidized loans, of course you’re not making payments, but that interest is still accruing, it’s not being subsidized at all. So, this modified REPAYE plan is kind of somewhere in between, right? Fully subsidized and fully unsubsidized loans. If we’re talking, you know, if we’re comparing to people who are in deferment, which this is not for people who are in deferment, this is for people who are in repayment.

34:09 Emily: We did just cover when you’re calculating the payment that undergraduate and graduate loans are treated differently. But I understand there’s also a difference in terms of the repayment term before forgiveness occurs. Can you clarify that?

34:22 Meagan: With the proposed plan, the undergraduate loans could be eligible for forgiveness after 20 years. Graduate loans would be on the 25-year timeline unless you’re on either pay as you earn, which is a different income-driven plan or new IBR. So, there is a 20-year timeline for graduate loans. It just will not be associated with the new REPAYE or the existing REPAYE. So, that’s something that goes into the planning when we decide, you know, is this new plan going to make sense? Or do we just rely on the existing plans for the shorter term?

Married Filing Jointly or Separately

34:58 Emily: I see. Gotcha. So, because your payment is based on your tax filing <laugh> forms, your AGI, how you file your taxes affects that payment. So, I understand that most people who are married, most Americans who are married file jointly, it kind of makes sense calculation-wise for most people. But student loans are one of those areas where it can throw a wrench in that, and some people do choose to file separately. So, what is going on with married filing jointly versus married filing separately? And how is the modified REPAYE plan treating that?

35:29 Meagan: Right. Yes, so you’re exactly right. Filing taxes as a married couple, normally you’re going to be filing jointly. There are a lot of tax advantages to filing jointly with a spouse. Main reasons to be filing separately would be if there are IRS debt situations with a spouse that you want to exclude from your situation, if you’re going through a separation or a divorce. Those are some big main reasons, but also student loans are becoming a large reason why people consider to file separately. And that is because when we’re on an income-driven plan, the payment is based off of your adjusted gross income that pulls from your tax return. So, if you’re filing taxes jointly, then the Department of Education is going to want to know what your household income is because you filed jointly with your spouse. So, even if it’s just your loans, the payment is going to be based off of the household income, which can be a problem for folks, especially, I mean for a number of reasons.

36:29 Meagan: It will make the payment higher if your spouse has income. It weirdly makes it seem like your spouse has to be contributing to your loans even if you went into a relationship with the understanding that it was your debt. So, it can create some issues there. And so there is a solution to this. Filing taxes married separately, depending on the plan, will allow you to exclude spousal income. So, that is a big advantage for a lot of people who are pursuing an income-driven plan or forgiveness because it keeps the payment just based off of their income. It keeps the payment lower, so it’s maximizing the forgiveness path. The current REPAYE plan as it is right now does not allow you to exclude spousal income regardless, which is kind of stinky. So, we’d have to revert to either PAYE, the pay as you earn plan, income-based repayment, either the new or the old IBR, or income-contingent repayment.

37:32 Meagan: Those other four income-driven plans allow you to keep the payment off of your own income as long as you’re filing taxes separately. REPAYE currently does not. Now, bear with me. The new revised REPAYE plan would then allow <laugh> this to actually be the case for REPAYE to exclude spousal income. So, that is a big deal because that’s been the one plan that, you know, has been an issue for folks where maybe they wanted to be on REPAYE for whatever reason, it was the cheaper payment option for them. But it requires you to include spousal income. The revised REPAYE plan that could be coming out is going to operate like PAYE, IBR, and ICR. So, that is a big advantage because it allows folks to have that benefit and, you know, have all the other benefits that come along with this new REPAYE plan.

Consider What’s Best for You

38:31 Emily: Yeah, thank you so much for that clarification. Is there anything else that we should know about the new proposed REPAYE plan?

38:40 Meagan: So, one just word of caution is I think if this plan does get approved, I hope it does, I think it could be a really great option for a lot of people, but I know it’s going to be positioned or it’s going to be talked about as if it is the best plan for anybody. That is not necessarily the case. So, what I mean by that is we talked about how it could make an income-driven payment a lot less. It could allow you to exclude spousal income. It could have a 100% interest subsidy. So, there are a lot of benefits to it. But one big downside is if you have graduate school loans, it is a 25-year timeline to forgiveness. That is five extra years of repayment compared to the existing pay as you earn plan and the new IBR plan.

39:34 Meagan: So, that’s something that really needs to be weighed because if they come out with this new plan, they do plan on phasing out pay as you earn, which is the 20-year timeline. They still would have new IBR, but to be eligible for that plan you couldn’t have borrowed before July of 2014. So, it’s limited to newer borrowers. So, if you’re someone who borrowed before 2014 and you value maybe being done with your loans or being done with forgiveness in 20 years instead of 25, then the new modified REPAYE plan, even though it’s cheaper, like maybe a little bit cheaper per month, that may not outweigh the extra five years of repayment. So, that’s something to just be aware of is it may not be the best plan for everybody. So, it still warrants some careful consideration.

40:28 Emily: Yes. Thank you so much for adding that. And I’ve grown a new appreciation for your profession from listening closely to the Student Loan Planner podcast over the last handful of months because there are so many more complexities that I, even as sort of a person in the financial space, but not really, you know, following student loans really closely. There are so many more complexities that I was not aware of. And so I say for anybody for whom your student loan repayment is a very high stakes decision. A lot of money involved, a lot of income, a lot of debt, I really think going for a plan from you all or from a similar organization is going to pay off. Like for some people, I know there have been examples on the podcast where people were not aware of some of the forgiveness options available to them, and they are forgiven hundreds of thousands of dollars that they would not have otherwise been able to do. Now, if you have $10,000 of student loans, this is not necessarily a high stakes decision for you, but really if it is a high stakes decision for you, it’s worth getting a professional to advise you on this. So, that’s my little plug for you all for Student Loan Planner, mid-podcast.

41:33 Meagan: Thank you.

Changes to Rule of Thumb

41:33 Emily: So, having gone through the, you know, many of the terms of this modified REPAYE plan, is there someone for whom this makes a lot of sense? How has the rule of thumb that we discussed earlier been updated with this new plan as an option?

41:47 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>? Yep. If you’re someone who’s working towards PSLF, this rule of thumb will be different for you. So, keep that in mind. There are greater chances of you being eligible for PSLF, it making sense to go towards PSLF, even with smaller balances. So, this would be more of a rule of thumb for those that are not doing PSLF but are interested in the longer-term forgiveness. Previously, our rule of thumb was if your balance was two times your income, then forgiveness is definitely going to mathematically make more sense than trying to pay the loans off. Then we had the COVID forbearance happen, and 0% interest for a long time and we started to get a little more conservative with that number and saying maybe it’s like one and a half times your income because the federal student loan system is kind of interesting right now. We don’t know what’s going to happen <laugh>, they have a lot of flexibility to, you know, make student loan repayment better.

42:48 Meagan: And now, with this new revised REPAYE plan proposal, we’re starting to think that it could be, if your balance is around the same as your income, especially if you have a large household, if you have, you know, a couple kids and you’re married, then pursuing longer-term forgiveness might actually make more sense even if your balance is about the same or just barely above your income. So, it’s worth checking out, don’t write it off until you run the numbers. And then you can weigh the pros and cons of going both routes, but certainly don’t write it off before you take a look at it if you’re kind of in those balance ranges.

43:27 Emily: Okay, so quick restatement is if your income, and now right now we’re talking about your career income, we’re not talking about your grad student stipend.

43:35 Meagan: Yeah, correct.

43:35 Emily: Not even necessarily your postdoc salary, but your career income is, let’s say in the first year that you have that quote unquote real job. If it is around or less than your student loan balance at that time, that’s when you should be taking a look at this plan and possibly some of the other plans as well, depending on those ratios. If your income far exceeds your loan balance, mm, probably the standard plan most likely is going to be good for you.

44:00 Meagan: Yeah.

Should Current Students Consider this Plan?

44:01 Emily: Okay. Now we’re going to get into what I think is the super, super interesting part of this interview. Because so far, we’ve been learning about this modified REPAYE program generally, but what nobody is talking about <laugh> is what should current students do? Should current students be considering this plan?

44:22 Emily: Nobody’s talking about this. So I want to know, and we have a few different ways of asking this question. So basically, what I’m talking about is for people for whom deferment is an option, should they instead, what are the advantages of perhaps enrolling in this new proposed REPAYE plan versus sticking in deferment? And so obviously there are going to be different considerations for different people. So, we’re going to talk through a few of these different scenarios. Let’s talk first about someone, let’s say either a single person or someone with a family, but their income is lower than that 225% of the federal poverty line that we talked about earlier. Now we’re not giving advice because this is a podcast <laugh>. What are the thoughts about someone who has that level of income?

45:03 Meagan: Yep. So, thoughts there are that if you were to enter the new revised REPAYE plan, your payment could be as little as $0 a month. So, and that that is a legitimate income-driven payment. It counts towards the forgiveness timeline. If you were full-time, you know, working 30 hours or more a week, that could be an eligibility for public service loan forgiveness as well. So, that’s good as far as getting you on track for loan forgiveness and kind of getting free credit in a way. But what’s also good to consider is if maybe you’re unsure about loan forgiveness, you’re not too sure if that’s going to be the path for you, this could still make sense to get on the new REPAYE plan because it’s going to have that 100% interest subsidy. So, instead of your balance growing while you’re, you know, finishing this time period, this training period, it will be staying at the existing balance that it is today.

46:04 Meagan: So, let’s say you decide five years from now, 10 years from now, you know, forgiveness wasn’t going to be the route. Well, if you were on REPAYE all through this training period, even with your income being really low, your payment being zero, you’re paying back what you owe today. You know, the current principle and interest versus paying back what has accrued on that balance. Because the unsubsidized loans will be accruing while you’re in deferment. And so that just means interest is growing on your balance. So that’s a significant reason to consider going into this this new REPAYE plan if compared to going into deferment.

46:46 Emily: Yeah. So, let’s tease out the different types of loans you might have now. If you had subsidized loans, let’s say a hundred percent of your loans were subsidized, the advantage of going into this particular repayment, as I understand, would be then that you, and again in this scenario, we’re not making a payment because the income is low. You’re not making a payment, but you are accruing months and years under this repayment plan. So if you do end up choosing to go an IDR route and going the whole forgiveness plan, you have many more years that you’ve been in repayment even though you’re making that $0 payment. And there’s no advantage either way with the interest because it was going to be subsidized anyway. Now, if you had unsubsidized loans, throwing that into the mix, if you choose deferment, those loans are accruing interest. But if you choose this modified REPAYE plan, and again, your income is below this threshold level, you’re paying zero, which means that effectively your loans have become a hundred percent subsidized during that period of time. It looks like a for sure advantage for someone who holds unsubsidized loans and somewhat of an advantage for someone even with subsidized loans.

47:52 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, there’s an advantage either way. And it, you know, this new REPAYE plan makes deferment look very unattractive for a lot of reasons. There’s not a lot of advantage to deferment anymore. And even if you had a payment kick in, keep in mind, it’s a portion of your income. So, you gave me a good example before we had started this on, you know, maybe at most someone’s getting a stipend of about $45,000.

48:23 Emily: That’s real high-end people. Really outside.

48:27 Meagan: <Laugh>. So, we’ll go with like the highest number, which will give us the worst-case scenario payment-wise for this new REPAYE. That would be about 90 bucks, a hundred bucks a month. So, not too bad. And if you’re closer to let’s say 35, you know, $35,000 for your stipend, that’d be closer to maybe almost $10, $20 a month. So like, there’s less of a reason now to go into deferment. Because usually the first kickback I’ll get for that is, well, you know, I cannot afford a payment. I think you can afford $10 a month <laugh>, if it’s going to save you this amount of interest later, I think you can afford $10 a month or zero. Everyone can afford $0 a month <laugh>.

49:12 Emily: Right. So, if you’re under that 225% of the federal poverty level, it’s like, okay, your payment was going to be zero anyway. Awesome. If you’re above it, as you said, generally speaking for grad students, it’s only going to be slightly above. And if we’re talking about undergrad loans, let alone, that’s only 5% of your discretionary income for the calculation. And so, it could be just a few dollars, as you said, a few dollars, $10, $20, $50 if you had a particularly high income a month. And so, really in that case you’re making these small payments, but what you’re gaining is the interest subsidy on the remaining amount of interest that’s accruing each month and those years of payment towards this IDR plan. Is that right?

49:48 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, yes.

49:50 Emily: So, you can think about it as paying this small cost for those particular benefits. Now if you didn’t think for whatever reason that that was an advantage for you, maybe your loans are all subsidized, for example, whatever the case may be. Maybe you don’t think that small payment is worthwhile, but it is something to at least think about and consider and not just default into deferment as we have done for so many years in the past. Thank you so much for stating that.

Can You Be in Repayment and Still Taking Out Loans?

50:14 Emily: And then let’s think also about someone who, because this question might come up. So what about graduate students who think that there’s a possibility that they may be taking student loans out at some point during their graduate degree? Either they know they’re going to for sure, or do they think, “Oh wow, this is a possibility if x, y, z happens, I may take out a loan.” Is it even possible to be in repayment and still taking out student loans? How does this work?

50:39 Meagan: It is not. Yes and no. So, it depends. It always depends. But if you’re taking out loans for your current graduate degree, those loans in particular that are associated with that graduate degree cannot go into repayment until post-graduation. Your undergraduate loans can be. They can go into repayment. They can take advantage of maybe this interest subsidy or the forgiveness clock getting started. But loans for your current degree cannot. So, that’s one maybe downside for those who are borrowing.

51:12 Emily: Okay. So, let me restate. So, let’s say we have a current graduate student. The loans that they took out for their undergraduate degree could go into repayment if they want them to, or they can choose the deferment route.

51:21 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

51:22 Meagan: Loans from a previous graduate degree, maybe a master’s program, same deal. But any loans that are being taken out for the PhD program, let’s say that they’re currently in, those have to stay in deferment for the time being, until that degree is done? Yeah.

51:37 Meagan: Correct. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yep. You got it.

51:39 Emily: Excellent. So we talked earlier, Meagan, about how, you know, this is still <laugh> a little bit tenuous and so forth. How likely is it do you think that this is going to come into effect as stated? Or do you think there are going to be edits that we’re looking at over the coming months?

51:55 Meagan: I don’t think there are going to be a lot of edits. I do think this is very probable. So, I do think that they’re going to be implementing this. If there are any proposed changes, I don’t think they’re going to be to these big ticket items that we’ve already discussed. I think they would be like really minute changes. But stay tuned. We will keep people posted <Laugh>.

52:15 Emily: Absolutely. Again, follow Student Loan Planner anywhere you like. Especially their newsletter, their podcast. Meagan, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. I knew I could not get this information from anyone else, so I’m so glad that you were able to come on the podcast. Thank you so much!

52:31 Meagan: Of course. Thanks for having me and letting me nerd out as usual, <laugh>!

52:35 Emily: Excellent.

Outtro

52:41 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD’s Social Mission Pulled Her from Academia into Entrepreneurship

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Rasheda Weaver, the founder of the Weaver’s Social Enterprise Directory. Rasheda studied and taught social entrepreneurship as a graduate student and faculty member and along the way launched her own social enterprise out of her research and work with social entrepreneurs. As her business grew, she felt pulled toward full-time entrepreneurship and eventually left her faculty position. Rasheda and Emily discuss the financial steps that Rasheda took while still in her full-time job to give herself runway when she went full-time in her business, including opportunities uniquely available inside academia. Rasheda describes her weekly schedule in detail and how much time and money she allows herself to invest in physical and mental health and her growing business. If you are passionate about a social cause, don’t miss this interview—even if you’re not currently pursuing or planning to pursue entrepreneurship!

Links Mentioned in the Episode

S14E6 image: This PhD's Social Mission Pulled Her from Academia into Entrepreneurship

Teaser

00:00 Rasheda: It was just like everything just started to come to a head because I started getting a lot of speaking engagement opportunities that were paying thousands of dollars. And then the Bootcamp was doing well and then, you know, it was just all these different things happening, and I was teaching four classes as an academic. I just felt like I was being pulled in a lot of directions, and I could still do the teaching that I was doing in the classroom for Weaver’s Social Enterprise Directory. It’s just a different format. Sometimes it’s online, sometimes it’s in person, but it’s the same thing with a lot less stress.

Introduction

00:34 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 6, and today my guest is Dr. Rasheda Weaver, the founder of the Weaver’s Social Enterprise Directory. Rasheda studied and taught social entrepreneurship as a graduate student and faculty member and along the way launched her own social enterprise out of her research and work with social entrepreneurs. As her business grew, she felt pulled toward full-time entrepreneurship and eventually left her faculty position. Rasheda and I discuss the financial steps that Rasheda took while still in her full-time job to give herself runway when she went full-time in her business, including opportunities uniquely available inside academia. Rasheda describes her weekly schedule in detail and how much time and money she allows herself to invest in physical and mental health and her growing business. If you are passionate about a social cause, don’t miss this interview—even if you’re not currently pursuing or planning to pursue entrepreneurship!

02:00 Emily: We’re within one month of the deadline to file your annual tax return, pay your quarter 1 2023 estimated tax, and finish contributing to your 2022 Roth IRA. If you want some help with two or more of those actions, this is a perfect time to consider joining the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. Within just your first month of membership, you can take my tax return preparation workshop and estimated tax workshop, complete the Open Your First IRA Challenge, and attend our next general discussion and Q&A call to ask your questions directly to me on April 11, 2023. This can be the month that you really get on top of your finances! Again, go to PFforPhDs.community to check out all that you gain access to with the membership… and join us today! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s14e6/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Rasheda Weaver.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:12 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Rasheda Weaver. She is the founder, creator, owner, CEO of the Weaver’s Social Enterprise Directory. She’s also a former faculty member. So Rasheda, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. And would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

03:30 Rasheda: Yes, it’s my pleasure to join you. Thank you Dr. Roberts for having me! And so my name once again, Dr. Rasheda L. Weaver. And I’m currently the founder and CEO of Weaver’s Social Enterprise Directory that I also call WSED. And I’ve been a faculty member for over five years and have taught over 1,000 students globally. I started my career at the University of Vermont in Burlington, Vermont as an assistant professor of community entrepreneurship. And most recently I worked for Iona College for the last four years. And I was their first assistant professor of entrepreneurship and innovation at their Hynes Institute. And that was started with the 15 million grant in 2017. And so I came on and literally I was the only faculty member, so I helped build the teaching, the research, and the whole service programming.

04:15 Emily: Fantastic! And so, our kind of topic today is your journey from academia into entrepreneurship, but it’s so interesting because it’s like your academic topic of social entrepreneurship is also like you’re living it, right? So it’s like a meta thing going on here.

04:29 Rasheda: Absolutely.

Defining Social Entrepreneurship

04:29 Emily: So, can you tell us a little bit more about like what is social entrepreneurship and why do you think that grad students and PhDs should understand this and explore it?

04:38 Rasheda: Yes. So, social entrepreneurship is a process of using business to combat social problems, societal issues like hunger, poverty, inequality, disease. Any kind of major social issue. And it’s really organizations that, a social enterprise is an organization and it can be a nonprofit organization or for-profit, but we’re often seeing a combination of both. So, somebody has a for-profit business that they use to make all this money, and then a nonprofit that they use to funnel the money into different charities or social causes and things like that. And so, I’ve been studying this. It’s a new field, so it’s been around for 40 to 50 years. And my book, Social Entrepreneurship: A Practical Introduction, actually comes out December 15th, 2022. And it’s called a Practical Introduction because the majority of the world does not know this term. And it’s really important for graduate students and PhDs, in particular, to know this term because many of us already, if not all of us, have a social issue that we’re very passionate about.

05:39 Rasheda: That’s why many of us become social scientists like the both of us. And when you understand how, you know, entrepreneurship can be utilized to fulfill the same goals that you’re trying to fulfill in as a PhD, but you could actually sustain yourself with it, I think that’s just very, very important for PhDs to understand and graduate students. It also provides an alternative career path for academics that maybe want to pursue entrepreneurship or have a different kind of vision for what they envision their career to be like, or what they envision life to be like. And I’ll talk about that a lot today. And you know, social entrepreneurship just paves the way for us to do that.

06:21 Emily: I’m actually struggling to think of an example of a PhD who maybe would want to start a business where it wasn’t socially motivated, almost like can almost anything fall under this umbrella?

06:33 Rasheda: Yes. But it would have to be positive social change. Because I always say that social change, you know a riot can be social change <laugh>, but it has to be positive, something that uplifts community advances, human and community development. So I would say the majority, if not all PhDs are already working towards some kind of societal change anyway.

Do Solopreneurs Count?

06:53 Emily: Yeah. I’m thinking of myself now. And certainly there’s a, I want to better the lives of graduate students and postdocs and PhDs as like part of the mission for like my business. So, I’m actually wondering a little bit more about the entrepreneurship term within social entrepreneurship. Do I count as like a solopreneur single-person business? Or is it only like enterprises?

07:14 Rasheda: You do! You most definitely count and especially because your mission is to, you know, improve the financial well-being, essentially, of PhDs. And that is very important I think as a PhD, I understand the importance of that, but I think maybe the majority of people might not understand it. But what you’re doing is you’re helping people that are literally contributing to society in a positive manner. Literally building generations upon generations of, you know, future professionals and leaders for our world. And you’re saying let’s take care of yourself financially because finances affect our holistic well-being. It just does.

Starting Weaver’s Social Enterprise Directory

07:52 Emily: Absolutely. That’s how I think about the mission of like I and what I do on the financial side of things. It’s like supporting and bolstering and helping all these individual PhDs with all of their dreams and their missions for how to better our world because, and they’re so talented and I just want them to be able to do their work and contribute and like, and of course, the finances being part of that is something that can enable them to, you know, live those dreams out and yeah. So, that’s <laugh> my motivation for being here. Let’s talk a little bit more about your business and how and when did you start that?

08:25 Rasheda: Yeah, so I started Weaver’s Social Enterprise Directory in 2018, 1 year after finishing my dissertation. So, my dissertation was the first large-scale study in the United States of social enterprise business models. So, their social mission, how they make money, and what legal structure they incorporate under, so the perfect way to help you design a social enterprise. And I found all this data, and I had literally mapped 1,200 social enterprises across the United States. And so I said, well, this information should be public. And I first just started it as a public database. And so, it’s sort of like an accident that happened that turned out to be now my full-time career because I made the database public. But then I realized in order to have this website and to have the URL and to own the domain and all that, I have to finance that and I was doing it out of my pocket.

09:12 Rasheda: So, I started selling the database in order to cover those expenses. And then once I started seeing what was happening with the people that were using the database, like they’re starting companies that are helping them make six-figure salaries. And I was like, “Wow, okay. Like, I didn’t know that could happen.” And then, so I started doing more, but then other people, entrepreneurs started reaching out to me and saying, “Well, we’re social entrepreneurs. We really need to learn how to make money. Like the database is wonderful.” And that was great for academics and people that know how to use like email databases for business. But the average entrepreneur wanted to know how can I help them with their finances? How can I help them design a social impact model that enables them to maximize the impact they’re having on their local communities? And so, I developed the Ready, Set, Launch Social Enterprise Bootcamp during the pandemic actually because people started reaching out to me. And that’s a five-day online bootcamp. It’ll be in person in 2023. We’re doing it in Italy, but it’s a five-day bootcamp that literally trains entrepreneurs how to design organizations with a strong financial mission as well as a strong social mission.

10:19 Emily: I love to see that progression over those years of like, you turned your dissertation into something useful for the broader community outside of academia. And then you listened to the people who were using it and understood what their needs were and understood how you could take one more step to fulfill those, and then you did it again, and so forth. And I’m sure you’ll keep iterating that way.

10:39 Rasheda: I’m doing it again now with the coaching <Laugh>.

10:41 Emily: Yes, exactly.

10:43 Rasheda: Because after people have taken the Bootcamp, they’re like, well, well some of them just missed me because they missed the Bootcamp. It’s a really good environment, and someone to do coaching. But now they’re asking for a longer program, which is like a monthly training program where entrepreneurs can meet with me and I’ll help them throughout the month and we figure out one task that they’re working on and we’ll work on this throughout the month. Month two, we do another task. And so, they’re coming to me with these issues that they’re having as entrepreneurs, and I’m just delivering solutions, essentially. Which is what social entrepreneurs do. We deliver solutions to social problems,

Transitioning from Faculty to Full-Time Entrepreneur

11:15 Emily: This sounds like so seamless to me <laugh>. But you had another job when you started this. Like, I can feel that like this business was pulling you, “Oh, you can see how your work is being applied and helping all these people and this is wonderful,” but you still had this other job. So like, how did you make this transition, especially financially, from being a faculty member and having this side business to doing the business full-time?

11:37 Rasheda: Yeah, I love that you used the word pulling, because it really was. Because I would be in the classroom and I can see the impact that I’m having on students in the classroom and I love that as well. But at the same time, I remember in spring 2022, it was just like everything just started to come to a head because I started getting a lot of speaking engagement opportunities that were paying thousands of dollars. And then the Bootcamp was doing well and then, you know, it was just all these different things happening. And I was teaching four classes as an academic and then the grading and you know, I love teaching classes, but there’s so much more to academia and the service and being the only faculty member for my institute. I just felt like I was being pulled in a lot of directions, and I could still do the teaching that I was doing in the classroom for Social Enterprise Directory, which is, I’m doing the same thing, it’s just a different format.

12:27 Rasheda: Sometimes it’s online, sometimes it’s in person, but it’s the same thing with a lot less stress. And so, it really was sort of pulling me and then I think, you know the pandemic inspired me to also just like think about life a lot differently. Like, what do I genuinely want? I want peace, I want relaxation, I want financial prosperity. When the pandemic hit, I started saving money like a crazy person. Like I’m like, I don’t know if this is going to be like the next Great Depression. And so, I went from saving like $600 from my paycheck to $800 to sometimes a thousand dollars per paycheck. Just in case something were to happen to my job and I needed to do entrepreneurship full-time. And I started just dreaming a bit more. But then when I realized that, you know, what the pandemic allowed me to do and the pulling that was happening to me at the same time, it just allowed me to sort of push me into maybe what’s really my destiny. Because I always actually wanted to be an entrepreneur. And I went into academia hoping to do more research. And like I said, I was teaching four classes, so there’s not a lot of research happening there. I was still able to maintain it, but I was losing myself as an individual in the process.

13:36 Emily: Yeah. Wow. Okay. I actually want to back up a tiny bit and like, before you left your full-time position, you know, we’re in the midst of the pandemic, so it’s a strange time already. You mentioned you upped your savings because you were concerned about financial security as so many people were at that time and still are <laugh>. So, were there any other steps that you feel like are worth mentioning in terms of how you really got the business off the ground in scaling up and so forth that you did financially while you still had your full-time job?

14:04 Rasheda: Oh yes. A lot of this happened during my first year on the tenure track when I was at the University of Vermont. So, they had a really great startup package and well, I was able to negotiate that, so you have to negotiate your startup package. I think you should be very, very strategic about how you do that. And I negotiated one that was very you know, it just directly aligned with me taking steps to further my dissertation research. And I planned a whole social enterprise day party where I invited scholars and social entrepreneurs from all around the country to come help celebrate the introduction of Weaver’s Social Enterprise Directory. Not at that time realizing that it would’ve been a business idea, just an output of my research and a resource to my field. And I think that’s so, so important because we’re not just academics.

14:49 Rasheda: We are a part of a whole entire field as academics and that we can contribute in so many more ways than we realize. And so, I never just thought of myself as, you know, I’m going to use this startup package and it’s just going to fund what I do at the University of Vermont. I thought about it in terms of the bigger field overall. Because this is a journey, a life journey, and I’m committed to the field for life essentially. Also, one thing I took advantage of different funding opportunities. So, a lot of campuses now will actually have entrepreneurship funding for faculty. And I’m seeing this more and more. And University of Vermont had developed a program like that. And so, I was able to literally use some of that funding to commercialize Weaver’s Social Enterprise Directory.

15:34 Emily: That’s fantastic! And definitely, I mean it’s so great to think about academia as like an incubator. I mean, sometimes it’s literally they have like incubators for small businesses, but you were able to use your position as a faculty member and your access to these resources to sort of incubate your own business. And I love what you’re saying about like the continuity here between yourself, your business. Like you weren’t thinking of yourself as just a faculty member, you’re thinking about yourself as a contributor to this field and you’re still doing that. It’s just, you have a slightly different title in the way that you’re doing it. And so, it does make sense to me that investing in you and your business is still in alignment with that phase of what you were doing inside academia. Does that make sense?

16:17 Rasheda: Absolutely. Yeah.

16:18 Emily: Yeah. So, I still see alignment there. Is there anything else that you want to share with us? You know, we’re talking about these steps that you took prior to leaving your full-time job. Anything else you want to share with us about this transition from full-time academia with the side business to that full-time business owner?

Understanding Root Causes of Issues

16:34 Rasheda: Absolutely. I think one of the things that all PhDs have in common is that we are really adept at studying the root causes of why issues occur, right? We’re studying, in order to do our dissertation, we have to look at the history of the problem that we’re trying to address in our dissertation or the question that we’re trying to answer. That is the same thing all entrepreneurs do, social or not. Because they have to find a problem, and they have to develop a solution. But what PhDs do differently is, we find the deep root cause and the history of that problem. And because we’ve done that, once you’re trained in entrepreneurship, you can see the holes that exist in the market and you can fill them. All you need is entrepreneurial training to fill them. Because you already have the understanding of the problem, you have a better understanding than the majority of the planet has. And so, I just want to empower you to really understand that.

17:24 Emily: Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And can you talk a little bit more about how that applied to your business and your journey?

17:29 Rasheda: Yes, because I could see those problems so clearly, and I always saw, you know, entrepreneurship, it’s not like the field of psychology, for example, where psychology is the mind. It’s something that you can’t really touch. I’m working with entrepreneurs, or nonprofit organizations, or any organization. And so, my work directly has an impact on someone else. And so, I can work with them and I can learn from them and talk to them and apply my work to them. And because I can do that, what it’s taught me was how do I communicate with those people? Not just communicate with journals, not just communicate with the research audience, but how do I communicate? Like I started doing policy briefs through the Scholar Strategy Network, an organization that any PhD can join. And so, they talk to civic groups, they teach, they train you in how to talk to policymakers. So, I literally started doing that and getting my work out into the community. So, that’s how, actually, social entrepreneurs found me <laugh> because they saw my work in newspapers and in policy briefs and in magazines and on YouTube. And they found me and said, “Well, we like that you’re doing this, but this is what we need.” And so, I was able to then develop the solutions for them.

Scheduling Paid and Unpaid Business Work

18:36 Emily: This is reminding me of a need that I’ve sort of started sensing in my own business and for myself which is that I want to do more advocacy work. And I am now trying to see how I can set up my business so that I have time in my schedule to do advocacy work that is not necessarily going to be paid. I’m anticipating that being unpaid, but I still think it’s an important part of like my mission. So how, and I think as like sometimes I feel a little, I don’t know if you ever do as well, jealous of people who have like a salary <laugh>, like a full-time position where like maybe they can take some time to do things that are definitely unpaid on their own because they have this holistic sort of safety net for themselves within their salary.

19:20 Emily: And I’m sort of thinking to myself, how do I do that for me within my business? How do I cover, you know, 20% of my time that’s going to be unpaid by the 80% that I have for paid work? Or whatever the case. And so yeah, I’m just, I think that you are demonstrating how you did this as well, right? Starting as a faculty member. And you’re probably still doing it now as an entrepreneur, right? So like, preserve time within your schedule for things that are going to be unpaid because they further the overall mission of the business slash your own life mission as it relates to work.

19:50 Rasheda: I’m so happy you asked me this question, it actually skips to another question that you had when you gave me the outline. But I dedicate now two days a week just to learning how to make money. So, learning about how to make money and how to grow money. How do I advance multiple, so if you see my vision board from January, 2022, it has all the different streams of income that I have coming in. And so, what I’m doing now that I don’t have a full-time position is I’m using those two days to just figure out how do I multiply the streams of income that I already have. Because if I didn’t, if I hadn’t done that, it would’ve been very hard to leave my job. And so, when things started, you know, getting chaotic and I decided this is not the route that I want to take, and actually if I do go back to academia, it has to be a position that I love and I’m going to thrive in.

20:39 Rasheda: It’s not going to just be any position. I’m not going to just take any job. And so, I wanted to set myself up for success in order to make that a reality. And the reality of doing that is having a solid financial base. And so, literally, taking Mondays and Wednesdays, the same days I had off in academia, because I worked on Tuesdays and Thursdays, so I kept those same days. Those are when I do my business stuff, create products, promote things. But Mondays and Wednesdays I’m reading books on estate planning, on investing profit first. You know, I’m reading Smart Women Finish Rich by David Bach and The Latte Factor, all those different things, just learning how to make money because, here’s the truth. And I love this book, The Psychology of Money, that I just finished reading the other day.

21:24 Rasheda: You cannot always, when you’re working for somebody else, there’s a cap on how much you can make. In entrepreneurship, there is no cap. You can make a limitless amount of money. So, what your job as an entrepreneur to do, and this is what I teach in my Bootcamp, you have to figure out how you can get to limitless <laugh>. You know what I mean? And so, there’s a lot of investment that happens. And like, with me putting aside an emergency fund for these couple of years, what I was doing with that was saying, “I’m buying myself time just to learn.” And that is something I talk about a lot in my book. I talk about patient capital. My emergency fund gave me patient capital as opposed to waiting for somebody else to give it to me. I decided to take this time, I gave myself a whole year. We’re just going to learn, and we’re going to implement things. We’re going to test them over time, and we’re going to make certain investments. Like I invested in a book marketing company because if I want to sell books, that’s, you know, being strategic about those investments. And so, yeah.

22:23 Emily: This is something that I did not understand very well when I started my business. I was so focused on making money immediately, that I didn’t give myself the runway that you did and all these wonderful steps you’ve been taking. And I hope the listeners are taking notes about this. I didn’t do the investment in myself and growing in all these like entrepreneurial sort of related ways that you’ve just been discussing. It took me years into this journey before I started making those investments. And then obviously seeing like the returns from it. But it’s just something that now when I talk with other sort of budding like solopreneurs or people who are interested in my journey, I tell them like, be taught either like in a community or buy a coach, or read books. Like you have to make the investment in yourself, like you said, to be able to grow to that level. Because if you stay stuck in the cycle of like, I have to, you know, have 35 billable hours per week to like make my, you know, the nut that I need to survive on, that’s not any way to grow into the future. You may be able to survive on that, but it’s not a path to growth within your business. So, I’m so glad that you said that. It’s such an important message.

Commercial

23:37 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my tax resources, many of which I have updated for tax year 2022. On that page you will find free podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. The absolute most comprehensive and highest quality resources, however, are my asynchronous tax workshops. I’m offering four tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022, one each for grad students who are U.S. citizens or residents, postdocs who are U.S. citizens or residents, postbacs who are U.S. citizens or residents, and grad students and postdocs who are nonresidents. Those tax return preparation workshops are in addition to my estimated tax workshop for grad student, postdoc, and postbac fellows who are U.S. citizens or residents.

24:52 Emily: My preferred method for enrolling you in one of these workshops is to find a sponsor at your university or institute. Typically, that sponsor is a graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, postdoc association, or an individual school or department. I would very much appreciate you recommending one or more of these workshops to a potential sponsor. If that doesn’t work out, I do sell these workshops to individuals, but I think it’s always worth trying to get it into your hands for free or a subsidized cost. Again, you can find all of these free and paid resources, including a page you can send to a potential workshop sponsor, linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Investing in Yourself and in Your Business

25:37 Emily: Can you give any other examples of how you’ve been doing this investing in yourself slash in your business for present and future growth?

25:47 Rasheda: Absolutely. So, I always say you need time and space for creativity. And so, I have the days, the two days where I’m working on just learning and learning how to invest and then implementing that and then the two days where I’m working and then Fridays are my self-care day. So, I invested in a health coach because I need to be healthy to make great decisions. Like, I’m so serious about this, like I literally eat blueberries because it’s good for your memory and as an academic you need to have a good memory <laugh>. So, that’s how serious I am. You need to have carrots, I hate carrots, but you have to eat carrots because they give you good eyesight and we need things like that in order to read. So, that’s like how serious I am. And I hired a health coach, not because, because I also have a ton of health books, not because I need someone to you know, I can’t do this myself, but you do need accountability.

26:30 Rasheda: You do need guidance. And so, one of my friends, for example, she runs a company called, an eight-figure company, called The Product Boss, where she trains females that have a product to turn their businesses into six- and seven-figure businesses. And so, I started investing in, I appeared on her podcast and then I invested in her social media kit because you can always learn something from someone else. So, I’m investing in myself in a variety of different ways, and I set aside two years. Year one, we’re going to learn a lot and we’re going to implement, we’re going to test and see what works and we’re going to track it, because we’re academics and we’re good at tracking things. And then in year two, I should start to see the flourishing. I’m already seeing the revenue coming in, but I’m reinvesting that into growing the organization.

27:16 Rasheda: And so, when I make a sale, I’m not thinking, “Oh, let me get excited and just sell this.” I do treat myself, but I also you know, I call it being scrappy. Like I started shopping less at Whole Foods and started shopping more at Trader Joe’s and having a budget around those things so I can invest more in my business because one day I’ll be able to make a lot of money and it won’t even matter if I spent, you know, do you know what I mean? Like it’s short-term sacrifices for long-term gain, deferred gratification. And that is what we’ve all done in our PhD programs, but now we have to apply it to entrepreneurship.

27:50 Emily: That’s such a great point of, I sometimes think about the sort of, I guess personality or characteristics that you develop in the course of doing a PhD that are going to very well apply to, it could be your career that’s more conventional afterwards or if it’s entrepreneurship. It’s such a proving ground and you’re going to learn a lot and you’re going to be different when you come out from the PhD. And those skills, those soft skills as well as hard skills can be applied in so many different ways. Now, just because you are on the topic of like your weekly schedule and so forth and I love hearing that rhythm. Can you share with us anything more about how your life looks today and how it’s similar or different from your life as a faculty member?

28:30 Rasheda: I think the most important thing that I noticed, like I feel so good, and like I’m healthier. I’m just not stressed. <Laugh> I don’t have that stress on me and being in academia can be very toxic, and we all know that. Anyone that has a PhD knows that, because we went through a toxic experience getting it. And it was a beautiful experience because it allowed us to become who we are today, but it has severe psychological and physical and medical effects on you. And I think the most important thing that I’m seeing now. And also I think the most important thing I did was be honest about that. Because that’s another reason why I had to get a health coach, right? So, going through this and it’s a holistic health coach as well, so I can talk to her about these things.

29:12 Rasheda: Like yes, I was under a ton of stress last year. How do I heal my body from that stress? You know? So just taking walks in nature, drinking bone broth, like little things like that. And I just, I dedicate less time to work. I don’t work more, I work smarter. I work not harder. I work smarter. It’s like I said, learning how to make more money. Scheduling. I’m having two days for a week where I’m doing deep work in my business and allowing that to just sit so I don’t stress myself out, because understanding that stress isn’t going to help me. And then spending more time with my kids and doing things that I love, like doing art and I want to get back into dancing again. That’s one of the things that, but I have to find somebody that does dancing classes of the day. That’s the hardest thing <laugh>. But things like that. And just making sure I just take care of myself and do things that I love. I think that’s very important.

Time Management and Slow FI Movement

30:02 Emily: I’m a little curious about your time management right now, because I can already see you’ve blocked off what I’ve learned are called theme days, like you said. You know, you have your days of investment in yourself and your business and you have your days of producing you know, saleable work, and you have your day for health and so forth. I wonder, are you tracking your hours and almost like do you see actually even a distinction between the hours you spend working and the hours in your personal life? Or are they all, like the investment in yourself could go either way, right? I don’t know. What do you think about this?

30:33 Rasheda: I do think, I do track my hours now. I had to learn to say no. Like if I can’t, so when my kids get home around 2:30, I just, I can’t work with them home. It becomes stressful. That makes me stressed out and so I have to do everything before two. And so, yeah, in a way it’s like a limit to my hours and I do everything between 10 and two because making time for yoga in the morning <laugh> and making time to take a walk around the blocks, I can get fresh air. That’s just become really, really important. And that’s the beauty of entrepreneurship is that I can choose to do that. And so, once again, I might be making a little less money now. Because here’s the truth, with the kind of organization that I’m running, I literally could make [inaudible] in a year.

31:18 Rasheda: Like, I’ve literally done the math, I’ve started working with government officials and all these things, but I don’t need to do that right now. I need to get my health on track and my family and have a great familial and health foundation so that I can grow later. So, I’m making the sacrifice now, but I know that that’s coming because, one, I’m an entrepreneurship professor, so I know how to do this <laugh>. I’ve literally trained people and I’ve studied it, and it’s like, it’s working. It’s literally working. People are buying the products, people are buying the books. And so, it’s just a matter of scaling that and through investing in myself and learning how to do that in a way that doesn’t deplete me, but in a way that nourishes me. So I can do what I love, but I’m also you know, I’m not sacrificing my health and wellness in the process. Because when I was an academic, I was, I had to, there were sometimes you just, you have deadlines, you have to get, you have to get your slides ready for class, you have to grade by a certain time.

32:09 Rasheda: There’s just all that adrenaline. And like I said, I was the only faculty member teaching four classes. So that was hard. Because if you’re teaching even one class, you know that after you’ve done that you’re just exhausted. It takes a lot of mental and physical energy to do that. And you have to be very alert and you’re just exhausted after one. So, imagine doing four in two days. And it works if you have to do it five days a week or four days a week because what I’ve found is that you need a day off. You need that break day to just help you recuperate from the physical, physical demand of that. But because my programs are online, it just, it takes care of itself, you know? So like when you mentioned a certain amount of billable hours, I don’t have that.

32:49 Rasheda: So, most of my meetings on Tuesdays and Thursdays are meeting with people to do things like this, podcasting because I’ve already either developed my programs or I can just dedicate those days to developing online programs that are then there. And then I can create the schedule of the live programs or live talks that I want to do. And I can say “yes” and I can say “no” to whichever opportunity. It’s just all about priorities. So for someone, so for example, if somebody’s single and they have no kids, they can do a lot more than me at this time. And I would say use that as a great opportunity because that’s the benefit of being, you know, a solo, completely solo, like genuinely solo entrepreneur. But if you have kids and you know, I feel like they help me keep my balance, my family. And fortunately I did, I actually had my son while I was an academic while I was in my PhD program. So, I’ve always had to take weekends off and had to sort of navigate around that because I still have to be a mom, you know.

33:43 Emily: Your entire description through this episode of like the synergy between your academic life and your business and what you feel is your life’s mission and then how you arrange your schedule and the investments in yourself and your health and all these things. I don’t know how much you’ve explored, you obviously mentioned earlier you’ve read numerous personal finance books, but the whole like FIRE movement, right? Financial independence and retirement early, there’s a component of that. There’s like a subset which is called Slow FI and maybe you’ve encountered this concept, so like you are going to get to financial independence eventually, like you talked about, okay, well eventually I can build my business. Right now I have a different goal, which is, you know, in this other area. The Slow FI movement is like, make your life awesome right now.

34:25 Emily: And yes, eventually you’ll get to financial independence early retirement, but it almost doesn’t even matter because you’re living such a fabulous life. There’s almost no like end point to like this goal, right? And that set to me just sounds like the life you’re setting up right now of working, you know, part-time doing also investment in yourself and your health and having this wonderful time with your family. There are a lot of parallels of that in my own life. I also only work like four to five hours per weekday because that’s the schedule that allows me to spend a lot of time with my kids when they get home from school. And it’s just, it’s more balanced. I feel like working eight hours a day, yeah, maybe I had the energy of that in my twenties. I don’t anymore. Anyway, so I just.

35:03 Rasheda: And it’s also the stage, the stage of life that we’re in. Like my daughter is three and my son is seven and she’ll be four. And like I just made up my mind and said I have to do Slow FI because I’m very, I love the FIRE movement, but I have to do it slowly right now to still do what I love because that’s nourishing in a different kind of way. And also making money to support the family. But at the same time, I don’t want to miss these moments. So, because money isn’t everything, right? So like I said, I could make, I projected I could make [inaudible] a year like easily. But I want to be here for my daughter. I want to be here for my kids. I want to cook for them. I want to you know, have a thriving romantic life, you know what I mean? Like go on dates and all those things. I love that, and that matters to me. And go on vacations and all that stuff. And so, you know sacrifice in some areas. Well, here’s what I say. I always say, “What I can’t do now, I can do later.” <Laugh>, you know? I won’t do what I can’t do, but what I can do, I will do.

Where Can Listeners Find You?

36:02 Emily: Rasheda, this has been such an invigorating conversation. It’s been so lovely to meet you. I have two more questions for you. The first one is, if anyone else is as excited as I am about this conversation and wants to follow up more with you, where can they find you?

36:14 Rasheda: So, my website is rashedaweaver.com and also my Instagram is @rashedaweaver_PhD. And I’m also on LinkedIn. And that’s been fun. If you sign up for my newsletter, I’m starting a newsletter called Weaver’s Review starting January, so you’ll be able to have updates on me but also updates on social entrepreneurship in general, the field, funding opportunities, employment opportunities, and information about my boot camps and training programs. That’ll all be, you know, we’re going to really be doing that in the next year.

36:46 Emily: Yeah. And mention one more time, I think you said you have a book that’s just about to come out. We’re recording this in December, 2022. So, it’s about to come out, right?

36:53 Rasheda: It comes out exactly one week from today. It’s called Social Entrepreneurship: A Practical Introduction. And the main question that I ask in the book is, if I teach good people how to make money, will they do more good with it? And so you definitely want to get that book because it’s all about entrepreneurship and exactly what we’re talking about. How do you create an organization that allows you to do good for yourself as well as good for your community?

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

37:15 Emily: Fantastic! Okay, Rasheda, the last question that I ask all of my guests is, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

37:29 Rasheda: My best financial advice is that there’s no greater investment in life that you can make than the investment in yourself. So just like I had that emergency fund, I also called it a dream fund. And so, putting money aside, even if you don’t know exactly what you are you going to use it for, emergencies always happen. So, it’s better to have an emergency be annoying than for it to be catastrophic. And so for me, you know, when I became unhappy with my career in academia working there, I just, I was able to just easily transition into entrepreneurship because I had that fund already set up because I was investing in myself even when I didn’t know what the investment really was, <laugh>. And so, I think you should really do that and that’s a holistic investment as well because your health, your wellness, your family, your romance, all that matters into making you the best individual that you’re going to be in. But that all takes investment.

38:23 Emily: Well, Rasheda, thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast. It’s been a real pleasure to talk with you!

38:29 Rasheda: Thank you. It’s been a pleasure to be on the podcast, and I’m so happy to get to know you now. I hope to be back and share more!

38:35 Emily: Sounds great!

Outtro

38:41 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Apply Valuable Scientific Mindsets to Your Personal Finances

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Brock Bennion, a financial advisor with Kimball Creek Partners who draws on his scientific training when he works with clients. Brock and Emily discuss how the mindsets and principles that scientists learn can translate very well into their personal finances, everything from thinking long-term to avoiding flashy experiments to collaboration. Brock also lists the essential personal finance strategies to apply during or following the PhD to avoid making a big mistake.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

S13E7 Image: How to Apply Valuable Scientific Mindsets to Your Personal Finances

Teaser

00:00 Brock: In science, what we learn early on is the value of collaboration and how important it is to get your findings out there as soon as you have something. And you would never wait to present those findings until you were at a conference or you were publishing them in a journal. You find the experts along the way and you workshop it the whole time. We’re hesitant to do that with finances. You’ve got to talk with people who have done it and who have some expertise, even just through their experience. Because if you do that, you will start refining your way to a better answer.

Introduction

00:39 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 7, and today my guest is Dr. Brock Bennion, a financial advisor with Kimball Creek Partners who draws on his scientific training when he works with clients. Brock and I discuss how the mindsets and principles that scientists learn can translate very well into their personal finances, everything from thinking long-term to avoiding flashy experiments to collaboration. Brock also lists the essential personal finance strategies to apply during or following the PhD to avoid making a big mistake. The inevitable—the unavoidable—is approaching. Tax season begins in about two months. But help is on the way! I have been busy this fall creating a new version of my annual federal tax return preparation workshop and updating the versions I have offered in the past. These workshops are designed exclusively for funded graduate students and postdocs.

02:08 Emily: I used to teach this material live for university clients, but in recent years have switched over to offering pre-recorded videos plus Q&A opportunities. I actually much prefer this format because you can work through the content at the time that is best for you, whether January or April or in between, and also at a comfortable pace. For the tax return preparation process in particular, I think it’s very helpful to be able to pause the videos and collect documents or make calculations and rewatch segments if you didn’t catch the nuances the first time through. Plus, you still have the ability to ask questions in case anything is unclear or you aren’t sure how to apply the information to your situation, and frankly these are even better questions than the ones I used to get during fully live workshops because you’ve had time to reflect. I’m very proud of these workshops, and they’ve been reaching more and more graduate students and postdocs every year. The new version of this workshop that I’m offering this coming tax season is for nonresident graduate students and postdocs, and I will continue to offer the versions for U.S. citizen/resident graduate students and U.S. citizen/resident postdocs.

03:20 Emily: If you would like to use one of these workshops in the upcoming tax season, you do have the option to purchase it as an individual via PFforPhDs.com/tax. However, I would much prefer that you gain access to it for free, which you can attempt to arrange by helping me find a sponsor at your university, such as your graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, international house, etc. I’m bringing this up now because these offices and groups generally need some time to figure out if they have any funding available to allocate toward this purpose. Please let me know of your interest in approaching a potential sponsor at your institution by emailing me at emily@PFforPhDs.com. I may already have someone in mind! Thanks for your help with spreading the word about these educational tax workshops! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e7/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Brock Bennion.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:28 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on podcast today, Dr. Brock Bennion. He is a PhD from WashU in St. Louis, and he’s also a wealth strategist at Kimball Creek Partners in Tacoma, Washington. So Brock, so delighted that you’re here today. We’ve met on Twitter, which is a really fun way for me to get to meet my guests. So, I’m so glad that we, you know, had some exchanges over there and now here you are on the podcast. So, this is really fun. And would you please introduce yourself to the audience a little bit further?

04:56 Brock: Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Emily, it’s, it’s great to be here. It’s great to talk to you kind of face-to-face, like you said, it’s fun to meet people online. Like you said, I’m a wealth strategist at Kimball Creek Partners. My background is in biology. I was an immunologist, studied at Washington University. I studied viruses and autoimmune diseases and how those two things work together and I absolutely loved it. I still love science. I think it’s amazing, but I am enjoying my career here and, you know, we might talk about how I ended up here and why I did that. But now, I love talking about the interface of science and finance and how these things come together. And so, when you offered me the chance to come on the podcast, I thought, well, that sounds like a lot of fun.

Research Mindsets that Translate into Finance

05:38 Emily: So, we decided on our topic for today being, you know, for the researchers in the audience, the PhDs and PhDs-to-be who are listening, who want to enhance their practice of personal finance. What are the mindsets that we have already developed or are developing as researchers that are really going to serve us well if we’re able to translate those over into this personal finance space? And so, you and I kind of collaboratively came up with a list of a few different points together. So, we’re just going to talk through those and kind of have fun with this like, idea of translating these mindsets from research into the practice of personal finance. So, what was the first one that we came up with, Brock? And let’s start us off.

06:21 Brock: Well, so first we talked about the importance of kind of knowing your goal. I mean, if there is again, a unique aspect of a PhD, it’s the variable size and length, but how you really do view your projects in terms of years. You know, it’s not, you know, this semester’s, you know, test or you know, the upcoming quiz. It’s okay, how do I craft a story that takes place over, you know, years and then, you know, beyond your graduate work, you know, sometimes decades-long, you know, pursuits. And that’s what finance really is. You know, if you are thinking about finance properly, you’re thinking about it in terms of your life, and often beyond that and legacy planning for, you know, future generations and setting up your kids for their success. And that’s a really great skill. And something I think is underappreciated as a PhD student is the ability to say, okay, I’m starting at zero, you know, and I want to go to this point far off in the future. And that applies really well to finance, to be able to say, I’m starting at zero. How do I get to where I want to be? And let’s build a plan to get there.

07:31 Emily: I completely agree. This is one of the points that I kind of start off one of my talks with, The Graduate Student and Postdoc’s Guide to Personal Finance. I like to start off on a like a positive note of like, encouragement for the people in the audience who might feel a little bit like intimidated about, you know, a lot of people are uncomfortable talking about their finances or learning. So, I like to say to them like, if you as a PhD student or postdoc already have like a grand vision for your career and for how graduate school or your postdoc fits in to that vision of your career, you have to do that to get to the stage of being in graduate school. Like you have to write it in your essays, like how this is going to play into your career.

08:11 Brock: Exactly.

08:12 Emily: And so, you’re doing that long-term planning on the career side. And so if you could just pivot that and think about, you know, the decades in your finances and what you want your vision for your life to be, over not just the next few years, but you know, the decades, that’s already a skill that you’re developing there. And you just have to put it over to the other side of the finances and apply it there and it’s going to serve you really, really well. And I’m also thinking now about how like, you know, in setting goals, like, okay, this is what I want my career to be. And then you can break that down. Okay, that means this is what I want to do for my graduate degree and then I think I’m probably going to follow that up with a postdoc or this type of job after that.

Financial Goal-Setting

08:49 Emily: And you know, as you said earlier, people can pivot. You and I both, you know, made some pivots after graduate school, but we at least, you know, you can at least start down that path with a plan. And I think that is similar in the finances, right? Have the goals for the decades, but then back that out and have the goals for 10 years and five years and one year. And then that breaks down to your current goals as well. Yeah, is there anything you want to say about those, like links of time or like decision-making around goal-setting?

09:15 Brock: I think you’re right that like what PhDs do really well is they set these long goals, but then also that they set little goals to get there, which is the step of goal-setting that I think most people fall flat on. I’d say the first problem is people don’t set goals to begin with. If you ask somebody what are your financial goals, they’ll often just give you a blank stare. You should have some goals. And then what you need though, you need lots of small goals that get you there. You know, so if your goal is to discover, you know, something, you know, or show that a drug works, there are all these experiments that go into how does that line up? For the same way, when you’re doing a financial goal, one, you have to pick what your goal is. You have to know where you want to go. But then you’ve got to set the little goals to get there. It’s doing both of those things that really is where you harness the power of goal-setting and of planning.

Long-Term Goal: Retirement

10:03 Emily: I’d love to hear some examples now, like in that financial realm of a really long-term goal and then some more short-term or intermediate-term goals that will help you get there to that long-term goal.

10:13 Brock: Yeah, so usually, I mean, one that we talk about is just retirement. Now, not every scientist wants to retire. I used to joke that the retirement plan of many scientists, especially in academia, is something like drop dead in your office at 95 as you’re writing a grant, you know? But for those that do want to retire, you’ve got to come up with an idea of what that retirement looks like. You know, basic things of where you’re going to live, what do you want to spend your time doing? Because few people just stop and play golf now. I mean, that’s not really what retirement looks like for most people. And then, put a dollar figure on what that costs. Say, well, you know, if I want to travel abroad three times a year, once I retire, well you know, what’s that going to cost me? And then back out from there, and once you start getting a goal of a lifestyle type of thing, you put a big dollar sign on that. And then you take that big dollar sign, you break it down into smaller dollar signs of, well how much is that on a yearly basis? And then what do I need to start saving now to be able to accumulate those kinds of funds to be able to live that kind of lifestyle?

11:24 Emily: This example of retirement is one that I end up speaking about a lot because it’s obviously one of those biggest goals within personal finance that takes so long to properly prepare for, you know, and employing the power of compound interest and so forth. But I’m remembering that when I was in graduate school, and to some extent up until just like a couple of years ago, I didn’t really have that vision of what I wanted my retirement to look like. So, my shorter-term goal was just start saving and start investing and assume that you’re going to get to like the more specific vision later. Because I know it’s going to take investing to some degree either way. And I wonder if there’s a parallel that we can draw over to like the process of getting your PhD or your career on the other side of it. Like maybe it is just, okay, I’m pretty sure I need to have a PhD to do something with my career later in this area. So, I feel like a PhD is a good thing to complete, and that’s a nice five or so, you know, year term goal.

Value of Planning and Collaboration (PhD/Finance)

12:20 Brock: And I think with that recognizing though, like from the beginning, you’re investing a certain amount of time in your PhD, and what do you expect the return to be on the end? You know, for some people, it’s the logical next step from undergraduate. For others, they know going in, well this is what I want to do. And others figure it out along the way. And that’s totally fine whatever path you find yourself in, but you should be actively looking for your plan and your outcome. You know, the future belongs to those who go out and get it. And if you’re always just taking things as it comes, that’s an okay thing to do as you’re figuring things out. But eventually, you’ve got to set your sights on something, and you’ve got to go and get it.

13:04 Brock: And that’s exactly what I think a PhD teaches you really well to do. We all know the person who sat at their bench and didn’t do any experiments and eventually, they had to go do those experiments. And we all know the person that came in every morning at 6:00 AM and was off working, and they got a lot of stuff done. It’s no different in finance or in life. The other thing that you kind of brought up before, and I think, you know, dovetails nicely at this, is the hesitancy that people have to talk about their finances with others, and how they kind of hold this in close. And what I find so interesting is that’s so counter to good science <laugh> right? In science, what we learn early on is the value of collaboration and how important it is to get your findings out there as soon as you have something.

13:55 Brock: You know, from the time that, hey, I have this idea, and you go and you share it with somebody and they say, well that’s a terrible idea, but you know what, if you did this, this would be a better idea. And then you go down the hall and tell somebody else and they say, well that’s a pretty good idea. We could do this experiment that would find out if it would be a really good idea. And, and you would never wait to present those findings until you were at a conference or you were publishing it in a journal. You find the experts along the way and you workshop it the whole time. We’re hesitant to do that with finances. We say, well I want to keep this secret until I’m totally secure. Right? Once I’ve become financially independent, then maybe I’ll talk about my struggles early on or whatever it is.

14:36 Brock: And I think whether you’re choosing, you know, the loan forgiveness pathway or you’re trying to decide is now the right time to buy a house or should I go to a high cost-of-living area for this job that I think has potential? You’ve got to talk with people who have done it and who have some expertise, even just through their experience. Because if you do that, you will start refining your way to a better answer. And you don’t just talk about it once you talk about it every chance you get because everybody will add something different and you’ll form a really good understanding of where you want to go.

15:11 Emily: This is definitely something that, at least I would think many graduate programs you’re taught and encouraged to do this. In fact, find peers and collaborators at many different levels. You have your peers, like other people in your cohort or in your program or in your lab and they’re going through the similar, you know, struggles that you are and they can have something to say about your thought process or your goals or what have you. And then you have your mentor and then you have your committee, and then you have maybe a collaborator at another institute. You know, there are many different levels of people who can help and guide you. And you’re right that we don’t, I mean on like the personal finance side of things, I’m trying to think because like, yeah, some people work with someone like you, like a financial advisor usually after they have some money to be advised upon <laugh>.

Overcoming Stigma

15:54 Emily: And then before that point, when you’re in the, let’s say the training stage and you’re just like trying things out and trying to get some debt paid off and get your, you know, your investing off the ground or whatever’s happening, it’s much less common to talk either with peers or with a mentor or someone who’s been there before. And you know, I do kind of serve as that role as like an educator, but I don’t have like one-to-one relationships with people. It’s more of a teaching like mechanism for me. But people, yeah, don’t tend to talk very much among their peers, even though they could be really good, resources and sounding boards. Yeah, what have you seen, like, I guess with your clients or have you seen any way to like kind of overcome this stigma that we have?

16:34 Brock: You know, it’s hard. Like any stigma, you know, and if we’re talking about, you know, mental illness or social issues or whatever it is, any stigma is best broken by breaking it. And you really just kind of have to start and realize that most people don’t judge. Most people are very accepting, very welcoming to that being honest and open. And you actually forge some real connections with that. You know, some of the best relationships that, you know, me and my wife made during our grad school years were with other couples who were going through the exact same thing. And we’d talk about, you know, our struggles of how do you make this work in the finances, and everybody’s dealing with the same stuff. And typically, people who have already overcome are even more empathetic because they remember those years and they think about, well, how could I have been helped? I wish I would’ve known this, I wish I would’ve known this. And it’s really valuable.

17:32 Emily: I think that’s definitely an encouragement to the listeners to talk with whoever’s a little further along than you are. Like if you’re an entering graduate student, talk with an older graduate student, talk with a postdoc, anyone who’s at like a later stage. And what’s kind of interesting about academia, I mean, obviously people come from very different, um, financial backgrounds. And you know, some people might be deeply in debt coming into graduate school. Some people might have resources from their parents or maybe a prior job that they had before they started graduate school. We can all be coming from different places, but within your program, it’s pretty likely that people are being paid somewhere in a similar range to each other unless there’s like an outside fellowship involved or something like, so at least you have some degree of commonality that you can like start conversations from. Like, oh wow, you know, rent is like 40% of my income.

18:22 Emily: My goodness, what are you paying for rent? I love that question. What are you paying for rent? It’s a very easy one to answer. Everybody knows how much they’re paying for rent. And it’s low stakes, right? Like, it’s not a judgment, oh, you’re paying more or less, whatever. Oh, we found a great deal. I’d love to know how you did that. I literally did this in graduate school because I ultimately moved a couple times in graduate school, and by the time I got to the last place that we stayed, it was like the best deal that I ever lived in during that period of time. It was because I asked people, how much are you paying for this place? Seems great. Oh wow, I can’t believe it’s that little. I’m going to get on the waiting list. You know? So, it it took that like collaboration, like we were talking about earlier, in sharing information to get to those great tactics that actually really help your finances when you can do something like reduce rent. One quick example, easy example. Very easy to talk to other people about rent. I found <laugh>.

19:09 Brock: No, that’s a super great example. No, and I love that because you’re right, people, everybody knows what it is and you know, you don’t judge anybody. You know, you don’t feel any judgment. You feel like you got a deal if somebody’s saying, oh, I paid this or I paid this, and Oh, that’s a great question. I like that.

Commercial

19:26 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2022-2023 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at emily@PFforPhDs.com to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Not-Flashy Experiments in Research and in Finance

20:49 Emily: Another point that we put in our outline was to choose experiments that you are fairly confident are going to work in the sense that they are going to give you information. And the way you put that was don’t be flashy. So, what does this in the research realm, and then how does this translate over to the personal finance realm?

21:11 Brock: Yeah, I hope this wasn’t just me in grad school, but I feel like a lot of grad students, maybe it was just me, you know, early on, will sit down with their advisor and say, Hey, I read in the literature about, you know, this new aspect, this new cool thing that’s out, and I was thinking that this might be affecting this, which might be affecting this, which is actually driving, you know, my project. And you know, the advisor lovingly looks at you and says, mm, probably not <laugh>. You know, like that’s a really long stretch. It could be, and if it did, it’d be really cool and to be really impactful, but the chances of that being true, that’s not really well-grounded in the literature. And then they steer you to some experiments that whether or not, you know, whether you get a positive result that you’re expecting or a negative result, it’s the right question to be asking.

21:59 Brock: It’s the right experiment to be doing and that can go into your paper, you know, be part of your project. And, you know, often people will ask, you know, what do I need to do to be financially independent? And like a really basic way to start is save 10% of your income. Not super flashy. It’s not about a specific investment or it’s not about, you know, doing a fixer upper home or having a side hustle or whatever it is. It’s just, you know, what, if you save 10% of your income, you put it away super diligently for 30 years. I don’t run into many people that have done that and aren’t in a good place financially. They may not be super rich, but they’re in a good place financially. They did something with a high degree of probability that it was going to work, and it worked <laugh>.

22:51 Emily: I think the way that I would put this, and I’m trying, I think this was advice that I sort of, I don’t think I applied it but I sort of heard it during graduate school, was to have a couple of sort of safe aspects to your project. Maybe more conservative, maybe more likely to pan out. And then take one high flyer on some strange idea you have. But don’t devote all of your time to it, right? We’re talking about 10, 20%, something like that. And have, you know, in terms of like constructing your dissertation, like have a couple of chapters that you’re pretty sure are going to work out and then save your, you know, strange, unique, possibly very high reward, but also very high-risk idea for, you know, the last one, right?

23:32 Brock: Yes.

23:32 Emily: And so, I think that that translates over very well to personal finance. It’s like, yeah, a few people might, you know, make it big financially on essentially a gamble, but the vast majority of people do not win the lottery, whatever, you know, the crypto lottery, whatever the version of the lottery is that you’re playing. You can try it, but with the vast majority of your resources, let’s do something that’s a little more tried and true. As you were kind of saying earlier, like, you know, I think about, and maybe we’ll link it in the show notes if you can find this, but I don’t know if it’s a PhD comic or xkcd or something like that, but it’s like, you know, a circle and it’s like these are the boundaries of human knowledge, and the PhD is like putting a little tiny bump on the edge of that circle, you know, like that. It’s the same thing with finances. Like the circle is like, do the stuff like saving 10% of your income, having insurance, like do all the regular stuff that is boring. It’s not flashy, but it’s going to work. And then, okay, yeah. Like, let’s take a little risk over here and a little risk over here as, you know, your personality might lead you to, or something like that. Is that another way of phrasing what you said?

24:38 Brock: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are things that you should do that make a lot of sense. And then yeah, you know, I’m certainly not saying you can’t take any risk or you can’t, you know, say, have fun with some aspects of your finance. But where you get hurt is when you devote too much time to that, just like you would in a project where if you spend all your time doing high-risk projects, maybe you get lucky and you hit it out of the park, but most likely you’ll end up with a lot of dead ends. You’ll be years into your project and you won’t really have a good foundation. And that’s what we’re trying to avoid.

Not-Flashy Personal Finance Advice (But it Works)

25:15 Emily: So, let’s give people some not-flashy personal finance advice. Let’s come up with like, I don’t know, three or five like baseline things, not flashy stuff, great strategies to be using. Whether that starts during graduate school or starts a little bit afterwards if they’re not quite ready for them yet. What’s on your list?

25:31 Brock: Well, I mean, you know, you’ll always hear, you know, my favorite is they’ll always say something like, you know, man, if only I bought, you know, insert whatever tech company in the nineties, you know, now I’d have, you know, this whole fleet of jets or something, right? Like, what people don’t say is, man, I sure wish I bought a diversified low-expense ETF in the nineties. But if you did that and you waited 30 years, it grew <laugh>, it worked. And there were a lot of companies in the nineties that just went away. And so yes, we can in hindsight look back and say, it would’ve been great to have bought this one that became big and changed the world. But if you just bought a low-expense, you know, ETF-type solution, it’s not flashy, it didn’t make you a billionaire, but it did work and it did grow.

26:19 Emily: Because, also by the way, it probably included that flashy tech company, whatever the sector was that, you know, is hot at the time, right? You just bought a tiny bit of it instead of a hundred percent of your bets on that. But the thing is like when you make that diversified portfolio bet, as you were just saying, you’re going to have some winners in there. If the economy is winning, you’re going to be winning with that portfolio. And you’re going to have a lot of losers in there, too. But thank goodness you bought some of the winners as well because you were so well diversified and it didn’t rely on your research and your ingenuity and your insights and blah, blah, blah to pick those out. Okay, so passive investing, index funds, ETFs, that’s a non-flashy strategy. Great. What else is on your list?

26:58 Brock: You need to have some form of life insurance if you have people that depend on you. Now, this does not mean an expensive, you know, universal whole life, whatever policy. But what we’ll tell people is, you know, make a list of everybody you say I love you to. Put a checkmark next to anybody you’re financially responsible for, and then ask yourself what would happen to those people if I wasn’t here? It’s not a flashy way to do it, and the goal is that you die never using it, but if you’re wrong and you don’t have that, you could leave people that you care about in a very unfortunate position.

27:42 Emily: Yep. Love it. And I want to add to that disability insurance too.

27:45 Brock: Yes.

27:45 Emily: Own occupation. Okay. What else is on your list?

Don’t Overextend Yourself

27:48 Brock: Just little things like don’t overextend yourself. Keep a budget, you know. Understand where are you putting your money every week? Is that in line with your priorities? And the example I sheepishly use, soon after undergraduate, I found myself working at a company as a microbiologist and I would go to lunch at just a sandwich shop every day. And all of a sudden I looked back and I’d spent like $300 that month going to the sandwich shop. Well, it didn’t put me in a bad financial position, but I thought, this is not in line with my priorities. It didn’t bring me that much more joy and to think that I could have put that money to something that had, you know, more in line with what I wanted to be doing, well that compounded over time. And so, again, there’s nothing flashy about bringing your lunch or making those small purchases and funneling your money in the direction you want it to, but it does work and it does add up, especially when you start early.

28:52 Emily: Yeah, I think I would phrase that as like an awareness of your money and just being willing to make adjustments when things are kind of out of alignment. And as you said, not overextending yourself. When you said that, I always think of housing and transportation, right? Like large fixed expenses, like especially challenging during graduate school, but like as much as possible, keep those in alignment with your overall income at that time. It’s obviously going to be really challenging in high cost-of-living areas, but just do the best you can during that kind of strange period of life, and you’ll be able to be more in balance later on when your salary is higher. But do the best you can and be aware of it. And like we talked about earlier, just be aware of opportunities where maybe you could find a way to spend a little less on one of these expenses if you feel overextended in that area.

Focus on Your Main Job

29:38 Brock: The last one I might add to this is just lots of times, people will focus on having a side hustle or side job, which is great if you enjoy that. I’ll often talk to people about focus on your first job. You know, there are things especially early in your career that you can take on more responsibility in different areas and accelerate your career growth and your career trajectory so that you’re making more money and you don’t have to spend 10 hours a night doing something else. You could spend an extra hour at your job and show that you’re willing to take on more responsibility and you grow. And as your salary grows, you don’t let your lifestyle creep with it, but you find ways to put that money to where you value most.

30:25 Emily: I love that point, kind of the rise of the side hustle corresponded with when I was in graduate school, like during the great recession, I think you were there at that time as well. And you know, at that time it was like sort of a necessity thing. Like a lot of people didn’t have primary jobs, couldn’t make more of their primary jobs, so they were turning to the side hustle. And then sometimes we were talking about earlier, like you see these successes of people who have a great side hustle or turn their side hustle into their main thing and their businesses and forth. And that can seem really attractive. But the 80/20 on this is just make more at your primary job as best you’re able to. And that could be through negotiation, that could be through, I want to say like preparation.

31:03 Emily: So, as a graduate student, as a postdoc, I want you to negotiate, I want you to apply for the fellowships. I want you to advocate for yourself. Absolutely. But if you’ve done that to the greatest degree you can and that’s where your income is for the time being until you graduate or move on or whatever, what you can still be doing is preparing for that next stage in your career through professional development, through networking, through gaining more skills. And so, that will pay off later. It’s not going to be in the immediate future, but when you have that first post-PhD, you know, career, job or whatever, that’s when it can sort of be like pedal to the medal and you’re going to apply all that stuff you learned, you’re going to negotiate, you’re going to do all the stuff to get that great salary.

31:39 Brock: Yeah.

Don’t Be Wrong

31:40 Emily: And the last point on our outline, Brock, I love the way you said this was, don’t be wrong, <laugh>. So, what do you mean by that?

31:48 Brock: Well, it comes back to the idea of, you know, doing what works. But we’d often say that the number one rule in science is don’t be wrong. You don’t have to be totally right. Nobody publishes a paper and at the end says, and this is it. No reason for a follow-up study, no reason for discussion. This is the end of the study. No, everybody has more questions. Every good study brings up implications and has things that spread from it. What you can’t do in a study is say something that’s wrong. You can’t make a claim that’s unsubstantiated, you can’t, you know, lead the field down the wrong path. You don’t have to be a hundred percent right, but you can’t be wrong <laugh> if that makes sense. And it goes the same way for finances. Making bad investments, things that are too risky early on, paying way too much than you should for things like a car or a house early on in your career. Those are things that can get you sideways financially and really throw you off course for a long time. It is better to just not be a hundred percent right. Talk about buying a diversified fund or something like that. You buy everything, you buy some losers, you buy some winners, you’re not wrong even if you’re not a hundred percent right. And I really think that’s important. Too many people are looking for that, well what’s the trick that’ll get me there faster? And it’s those tricks that usually mess you up.

33:22 Emily: Yeah, I feel like we went over this a little bit when we were talking about those like non-flashy strategies. Because the flashy strategies are the ones where we’re like, well, you might be right, but you definitely might be wrong as well. And it takes a lot of time to like figure that out, right? I mean, if you are an active investor for example, and you love to pick your own stocks, time will tell whether your strategy was successful or not. But it’s going to be time over like decades, not over like a year. And there’s less time to course correct once you’ve figured out that statistically that did not, you know, work out very well for you. So, don’t make a big mistake like we talked about earlier, like having sufficient insurance, not just life and disability insurance, which we mentioned, but like keeping health insurance and all that other stuff. Like insurance generally is one of those like nobody wants to pay for it, but guess what? The reason why the product exists is because you have an area in your life where if something terrible happened, you would not financially be able to recover from that, or at least not very quickly. That’s why you have the home insurance and the renters insurance and all that stuff. So like insurance is definitely one of those like, don’t make a mistake kind of products like yeah, it’s not pleasant to pay for it, but what’s really unpleasant is if that thing happens that you’re trying to insure against.

34:30 Brock: Yeah, we talk about, you know, you invest in what’s probable and you insure against what’s possible. So, the things that are possible but financially devastating if they were to occur, that’s where insurance can mitigate that. We don’t invest in those kind of things that are possible but not probable. We invest in what’s probable, insure against what’s possible.

34:51 Emily: Interesting. And can you think of any other areas that would be like a big mistake? Something that we haven’t already mentioned?

34:58 Brock: Yeah, I mean the one that comes to mind, and this is probably for people considering a graduate school or something like that, but where I look at people who go into a program and don’t finish. Or, you know, and I’ve seen people that drop out, you know, maybe just after five years, but just a year or two away from finishing that you get going down the wrong path and you decide that’s not for you, but you leave taking away nothing. It’s better to finish all the way to the end and then pivot once you’re out, and this isn’t for everybody, but in a lot of cases. Because then you have something to show for that. You show you’ve completed this, then you can move on to the next thing. But where again, you can get yourself really sideways is if you spend half a decade or more going down a path only to drop everything and not at least attempt to build on that momentum that you came up with.

35:57 Emily: Yeah, this is an interesting point and I feel like actually it could apply in other areas of career as well. Like not just the choice to go to graduate school or not, but sort of going down the wrong just career path generally for you. And it goes back to what we were talking about earlier about knowing yourself, knowing your values, knowing your personality. And I think just as soon as you start to notice a misalignment with whatever is going on in that area, it behooves you to examine that and then take action. Whether that’s the action to decide to finish, let’s say the PhD, the action to leave at that point before you, you know, spend three years in that state and not take any action about it. Because there are off ramps, right? Out of academia that can still be fruitful.

Be Open to Pivoting

36:35 Brock: Oh, I’m obviously all for pivoting. Me and my career, I pivoted. I think it’s great. I think you have opportunities throughout your career to pivot. But there’s a way to build on your pivots so that they aren’t turning around, but just changing course. And I think that’s important.

36:54 Emily: Yeah, I think actually my career has been an illustration of this point, actually, because I started knowing maybe around two years into graduate school that I probably wasn’t going to continue in research. But at that point, I really did a heavy reexamination period for about a year and decided that I did want to finish the PhD and it was because I was interested in several, you know, quote unquote alternative career tracks where the PhD would be useful. And so, I finished and then I picked my head up and did another reevaluation and said, oh, but I really love personal finance now and I really wanna go in this direction. So, I ended up pivoting again. But as you said, I was very happy that I got to the credential and got to the finish point because it has been useful since then. Then again, if I had been certain earlier that I didn’t want the PhD, then that would’ve been a good point to take that exit.

37:42 Brock: Exactly. Because, just like you said, those additional years that you would’ve invested. I mean, the relationship between time and money I think is very important. And, you know, whether it’s that you realize that my time is more important spent in this other direction, that’s great. Pivot. Leave grad school if that’s the right call for you. But know and recognize what you’re giving up and what you’re changing to. Because those are the kind of decisions that, you know, make a big swing in your career, in your finances, in your life. You’ve got to pay attention where you’re swinging.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

38:19 Emily: I want to finish up now with the final question that I ask all of my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And we’ve talked about so much like advice-y kind of stuff in this podcast episode already that I actually want to give you a more specific assignment, if you don’t mind.

38:36 Brock: Yeah. Okay.

38:37 Emily: Which is that you mentioned earlier that you had children while you were in graduate school. And so, I would love it if you would give advice for another graduate student or early-career PhD who has children maybe at a time when their peers do not yet have children, and what is some financial advice for that person?

38:54 Brock: You know, I <laugh> that’s a hard one. It is hard to have kids in grad school, but for me it was so worth it. It was great. My wife and I are a fantastic team. I hope she would say the same, and certainly she shouldered a lot of that burden. And I wouldn’t have been able to focus on grad school the way I did if it wasn’t for her support. And, you know, she deserves probably more credentials than I do. The advice that I would give to somebody thinking about this is to be really intentional with your time. Kids, whether you have one or I have three now, so I can speak up to three, they take up all your time. No matter how many you have. They are, you know, they expand to the volume to which, you know, the container holds.

39:51 Brock: And so, you need to be very good about structuring your day and your time so that you can be where you need to be. Now when kids are young, they don’t really know whether you’re home or not. So, it’s as much about supporting, you know, your other team member, you know, your significant other, in that process. And you need to do that. You need to be an equal team. But know that you will have less time. You will have competing priorities, and it will be hard. But I’d say that’s okay because it’s really fun. I’m a big fan of kids <laugh>.

40:37 Emily: I think, you know, the first thing you mentioned there was like time management basically, like being really intentional about where you put your time. And that’s something that I’ve definitely been learning as a business owner and as a parent. Sort of like the, when you’re at work, be all at work, be really focused, get what you need to get done in that time. And then when you’re at home, be off of work, be with your kids, like have that quality time together. And hopefully, you can make the arrangements with your partner and your childcare provider and all this stuff so you have that like, committed time that you can devote to both. But yeah, like you just become pretty, I at least have become a lot more hands-on manage-y about my time because I need to be now that that’s a factor in my life.

41:23 Brock: Yeah. And again, it’s different ways of doing it. You know, so I mean, I had friends in grad school that they would come in later in the day and they’d stay until three in the morning. And that worked really well for them. And for me it was get in early and leave in time for dinner at home and come back if I needed to, if there was a late night time point or something for an experiment. But you need to find something that works for you. You know, your life, your finances, have a goal of what you want that to look like and then you make a plan to get there. It’s not easy. It’s actually incredibly difficult, but it is worth it, and you will find more happiness if you do it that way.

42:06 Emily: I love that note to end on. Thank you so much, Brock, for giving this interview. It’s been a pleasure to talk with you.

42:11 Brock: Thanks so much for having me on, Emily. It’s great talking.

Outtro

42:18 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

PhD Home Buying Updates for 2022

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In this episode, Emily interviews Sam Hogan, a mortgage loan officer with Movement Mortgage who specializes in graduate students and PhDs. Sam lists numerous housing markets where graduate students and postdocs are able to buy a home on a single income or two incomes and explains why the rising mortgage interest rates should not be a deterrent to buying. Sam also illustrates why qualifying for a mortgage with fellowship income has historically been difficult for graduate students and postdocs, but how he and his team have found a way to reliably get them approved. They wrap up the interview with explaining how Sam’s recent shift to working for Movement Mortgage is going to smooth the path to approval even further.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

S13E1 Image for PhD Home Buying Updates for 2022

Teaser

00:00 Sam: This is advantageous to the PhD community because there are other things that are so stressful about the home purchase. You know, putting a $20,000 deposit down can add a little, you know, you might lose half an hour of sleep every night. I don’t want anybody losing sleep because they’re well qualified over income like letters. It’s totally ridiculous.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 1, and today my guest is Sam Hogan, a mortgage loan officer with Movement Mortgage who specializes in graduate students and PhDs. Sam lists numerous housing markets where graduate students and postdocs are able to buy a home on a single income or two incomes and explains why the rising mortgage interest rates should not be a deterrent to buying. Sam also illustrates why qualifying for a mortgage with fellowship income has historically been difficult for graduate students and postdocs, but how he and his team have found a way to reliably get them approved. We wrap up the interview with explaining how Sam’s recent shift to working for Movement Mortgage is going to smooth the path to approval even further.

01:46 Emily: Since we jump right into the discussion of mortgages in the interview, I want to take a moment here to prepare you for what’s to come! Sam has been on the podcast several times before if you’d like to catch up on our previous conversations. If you plan to listen to them all, please do so from oldest to newest. You can hear him on Season 2 Episode 5, Season 5 Episode 17, and Season 8 Episode 4. We have also held several live Q&A calls in the past in which Sam takes questions from grad student and PhD first-time homebuyers, and I’ve published a few clips from those calls on the Personal Finance for PhDs YouTube channel. We don’t have our next live Q&A scheduled yet, so if you’d like to be kept in the loop on that, please join my mailing list through PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Links to everything I just mentioned will be in the show notes. You’re going to hear me being pretty pro-homebuying during this interview because I get so enthused about it when I talk with Sam and reflect on my own rental and home ownership history. But I want to acknowledge up front that of course homebuying is not financially feasible for most graduate students and even if feasible is not necessarily the best financial or lifestyle decision. In my book, renting is a perfectly valid choice. Don’t feel pressured to buy by this interview. It’s more about encouraging graduate students and PhDs who are interested in buying that it may very well be possible for them and showing them how to do it. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e1/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Sam Hogan.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:35 Emily: We have an extra special episode of the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast today because my guest is my brother, Sam Hogan, who is a mortgage loan officer with Movement Mortgage. And for the past several years, he has been specializing in writing mortgages for graduate students and postdocs and PhDs. And I’m just so delighted to have Sam on! By the way, he is an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs, and he’s going to give us some updates on what’s going on in 2022 and recent developments in the mortgage industry that’s relevant for our audience. So, Sam, thank you so much for joining me! And will you please introduce yourself a little further?

04:12 Sam: Thank you for having me. It’s Sam Hogan, I’m newly with an old employer, Movement Mortgage. And my NMLS number is 1 4 9 1 7 8 6.

04:23 Emily: And let’s get your contact information upfront in case anyone knows already that they want to get a quote from you.

04:29 Sam: Yes. So, my best phone number is (540) 478-5803. And the new email address for me is Sam dot Hogan at movement.com.

Homebuying Markets for Grad Students

04:41 Emily: As probably everyone listening knows, in 2022 we’ve seen a lot of rate hikes from the fed, which has trickled down into the mortgage industry. And so, I know that graduate students and PhDs are really concerned right now about still being able to afford to buy with these recent rate increases. So, can you tell us some examples of places or markets where you’re still seeing PhDs and graduate students able to purchase homes?

05:07 Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Some of our steady markets, I would say nationwide, are just pockets of the country where you can still find single-family homes or townhomes under $400,000. Whether it’s a PhD or postdoc buying on their own or with a partner. We see a lot of activity in North Carolina, and that’s within the Research Triangle and also outside of that area. I’ve had a couple of deals done in Winston-Salem for Wake Forest students. But outside of Chicago, Northwestern, those areas are good as well, including, you know, Philly, Providence, Rhode Island, for people who are going to school just across the bridge at Harvard or MIT. And also Austin, Texas, and outside of those city limits has been steady, no matter what the rate is. And I say that because with these lower-priced homes that are a little more affordable for PhDs, the interest rate, even when it goes up, it doesn’t make a huge, huge difference in your monthly payment.

06:14 Sam: Now, if someone was getting a high balance loan at seven, $800,000, when the rate goes up just a little bit, it makes over a hundred dollars difference monthly. Our first barrier and hurdle with the PhDs is, and will always be the monthly income. <Laugh> Not just including it, but finding a property that fits within that budget. You know, people who are debt-free and have a little bit of money to put down, still, it’s the monthly income that we say, Hey, 10% down is going to have to get the job done because the income is very tight.

06:49 Emily: Yes. Can you give us some examples there? Because I mean, you just threw out $400,000, which like is sort of breathtaking for me. And I assume that’s with two incomes, maybe people could afford that. Let’s talk about one income. Let’s talk about a PhD stipend. Maybe it’s $30,000 per year or something similar to that. If you had a person, a single person buying on their own with that kind of income of good credit score, no outstanding debt, I mean, we’re talking ideal candidate here. How much would they be able to qualify for with current interest rates? We’re recording this in August, 2022.

07:27 Sam: Most recent live data is a loan closing tomorrow and she purchased at $185,000 outside of Chicago with 10% down.

07:39 Emily: And what was her income?

07:42 Sam: She was a second-year student, I believe it was around $34,000 a year.

Keep an Open Mind to Possibilities

07:48 Emily: Okay. Okay. So, ballpark numbers. That’s great to hear. Obviously, like you said earlier, it’s going to be a stretch for a graduate student, especially a single one as I was just mentioning, to buy a home on a stipend. But there are some markets around the U.S. where this is still possible, and even more so if you do have a partner to buy with, or if your income is, you know, better than the average graduate student stipend. Basically, my message always when I bring you on is like, audience members do not completely dismiss out of hand the possibility of you owning a home during graduate school or your postdoc. At least look into it a little bit. Yeah. There are a lot of places where it’s not going to be possible, but you may be surprised that it is possible in some places.

08:27 Sam: Yeah. I mean, I have a client who is buying in LA right now, which people would immediately write off as way too expensive. She does have a second job that she has history of working. So, she’s able to afford a little bit more than just her stipend. I believe she’s going to UCLA right now. So, she’s still buying in the upper threes. You know, she does have 20% down, right? Which helps bring down that loan amount, but I’m only qualifying her off of the stipend and a small seasonal job. So, yes, she is looking at a studio with one bathroom, but that is what she knows she’s going to be comfortable with monthly. And I think just the biggest thing about owning in grad school is completely flipping your net worth, right? You could have a hundred thousand dollars of student loans going into grad school, but turn that into $200,000 net worth and then also rental property when you move out of the area.

09:31 Sam: So, even if it’s a studio, it’s still a wonderful stepping stone. You know, you get that first purchase out of the way and you realize, okay, you know, closing costs are basically the only thing I spent my money on that doesn’t go into equity on my home, right? And you know, learning these small steps of home ownership, like filing an insurance claim if you have to, or like, why do I have plumbing issues every month, right? Whatever, maybe my washer broke, what do washing machines cost, right? All these things are just, you’re going to learn them eventually, and the benefits of a five or six-year plan of you owning while, you know, progressing yourself personally is just unmatched, I would say.

House Hacking

10:16 Emily: Sam, you put that so eloquently, and long-time listeners are going to know I’ve said many times that one of my big financial regrets from graduate school when I went to Duke in the Triangle was not buying my first home when I had the financial means to, because I had a lot of limiting beliefs going on at that time about what home ownership was for graduate students. So, I won’t belabor that point right now, but if you want to go back and listen to some previous episodes we’ve had on home ownership, you can check out season eight, episode 18, where I talk a lot about my own limiting beliefs around home ownership during graduate school. And we’ve done multiple episodes with Sam as a guest in the past, but I would especially point you to season eight, episode four, which is when we talked about, the title episode is Turn Your Largest Liability into Your Largest Asset with House Hacking.

11:03 Emily: So, we talk a lot about what house hacking is, which is basically just when you buy a home that’s larger than what you need and you rent out one or more of the bedrooms to tenants slash roommates. And it can be a really powerful strategy for graduate students who are able to pull it off. So, especially go listen to that one because we, again, talk about all these like options for exiting a home ownership situation, if you are leaving the city, when you finish your graduate program or when you finish your postdoc. You could sell, but if it’s not the right time to sell, you could hold onto it, and it could become a rental, like Sam was just saying. Or there are other options as well. So, anyway, great episodes to listen to. Sam, is there anything that you want to add about like where graduate students in PhDs are buying and able to buy right now?

11:42 Sam: I can say reflecting on my last year’s worth of production, there were 17 states which I originated for PhDs last year, or I guess in a calendar year. I definitely see a lot of business in the Northeast. So, people who are going to any New Jersey, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut area type of university. I actually had a very successful purchase for a student who goes to Yukon. His name was Joshua DuPont, and he implemented a wonderful house hacking purchase. Couple quick data points on it. He purchased at about $130,000. It was a two-unit, separate levels. The rental comp on the second unit was about $800 a month, which exceeded his mortgage by about 50 bucks. So, he was covering his entire mortgage by having that rental unit above his. I’m not sure which one he lived in, but it was a perfect example of someone who was making the commitment for five years, and then, I mean, his opportunity now financially is completely different than it would be if he was the person renting that unit from someone else, right?

13:05 Emily: I love to hear that. I’m so happy for him!

13:07 Sam: Yeah. And that’s actually the third PhD that bought a multi-unit.

Rates are a Moving Target

13:11 Emily: Wow! That’s so exciting! Okay. So far what we’ve heard is don’t discount home ownership. It’s possible in a lot of different markets. Secondly, rates are going up, but it won’t affect these on the lower end of home prices purchases as much as it will affect larger-scale home prices. So, still go ahead, get a quote from Sam, get a quote from somebody else, see what you can qualify for just based on your income.

13:38 Sam: I wanted to touch on rates one more time. You don’t want to be 100% focused on what rate you’re receiving. Because everyone at that time of the year is going to be in a similar boat as you. Rates have gone up, people will qualify for less at a higher rate, right? But the main goal is to find the right house within your budget. So, whether that is off of a 5% rate or a 6% rate, it still has to be a comfortable payment for you. Okay. So, while you’re looking for your home, rate is basically a moving target, right? What a lot of lenders implement is a float-down policy. So, my client in Chicago that’s closing tomorrow, when I locked her rate, she was up at 5.625. You know, condos have a little bit higher rates than single-family homes, but we’re able to lock at day one when we decided it’s a good time to lock.

14:41 Sam: And then also look at a second day in the future that’s before closing to see if the rate is better that day. In her scenario, the rates had improved for a few weeks. And so, we ended up floating down her 5.625 down to 5.1 at no cost to her. So really, when you’re locking your rate in, you’re just preventing the rate from getting worse, right? You’re locking in it at, let’s just say 5%, for example. Your rate’s never going to be over 5%. Should the market improve significantly before you close, ask your lender about a float-down option. They usually have one. I would say if they’re a competitive lender that does a lot of business, they have a float down policy. Okay. So, mainly, the point I’m trying to get across is, no matter what the rate is, even if it’s at 10%, don’t be discouraged from buying, because you still have the equity you’re going to gain in the home, the amount you’re going to pay your loan down, your tax write-offs, and the ability to either keep or rent out that home after you don’t want to live there anymore. So, all these things, compared to paying rent, rent is a hundred percent interest. The only good thing about paying rent is you get to call your landlord and say, Hey, I have a problem. Instead of dealing it with yourself.

15:55 Emily: That is a good benefit of renting, and one that I miss.

15:57 Sam: It’s the best benefit. Yeah.

15:59 Emily: I appreciate your points about still buying even at higher interest rates, if you qualify, right? The question is, if graduate students were at that tippy top max of their budgets anyway, and increasing rates have caused their monthly payment to go up to such a point where they could no longer even afford a house anywhere in that market, if they were on the bubble like that, then it’s an issue. But if you could still qualify at the higher rates, like you said, I still think it’s a reasonable idea to go forward with buying. Especially because, you know, let’s say next year or the year after that rates are lower, again, that person can refinance. As we saw so many people do with low rates over the past 10 years. And so, it’s not necessarily that that rate is going to be your rate forever. As long as you can still get into the property. So anyway, it’s worth investigating.

Buying Down Your Rate

16:44 Sam: Okay. So, I’ll add these details from what I experienced originating at higher rates right now. Like you just said a moment ago, you’re already on a tight budget. That’s not changing. And rates going up, you’re going to qualify for a little bit less. It’s not going to take you out of the market because now the rates have gone up, and home prices are actually starting to come down in some areas, right? You’re not going to go, you know, over contract price plus 10 grand to get into the home. Okay. So prices will adjust for a smaller buy approval that doesn’t qualify for certain amounts, right? And then secondly, usually PhDs are putting down savings or they’re receiving a gift from a family member or a friend. Some even are selling a previous home and buying another one, right? So, the $5,000 you needed from a family member to close, you know, planned on, might be $10,000 now.

17:44 Sam: You might just have to put a little more down to qualify for that house you want, right? Then again, I still have people buying single-family homes in North Carolina for under $150K. So, if you don’t need more than three bedrooms, you’re going to be able to find something. And then the last thing I wanted to point out is the realtor that you decide to work with is important because they’re going to work hard to find something that fits your budget. What we know already to start is that it’s going to be a tight budget monthly. So, I want to get my eyes on every property that you’re going to put an offer in to make sure it fits for your scenario. So, the room for error is very small here.

18:29 Sam: What’s very unlikely is that you’re looking for a home and I’ve preapproved you at five and a half percent. And during that period, rates go up to six and a half, and now you don’t qualify. That won’t happen. Because the cost to buy down the rate, if it were to go up, would be minimal. So, the rate that you don’t pay for has gone up, but if you are willing to put 1% or even 2% of your loan amount to buy down your rate, we can do that. Sometimes it’s cheaper to buy down for a lower rate versus getting another five or $10,000 to put down towards your loan. So even with the tight income monthly for one, you know, grad student on a stipend, it’s still achievable.

19:21 Emily: That’s really good to hear.

Commercial

19:25 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2022 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15, 2022.

20:07 Emily: Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives. If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. Now back to our interview.

Getting Ready to Purchase

21:29 Emily: Both of us have mentioned a couple times so far, like, okay, you know, ideal buyer candidate, like zero debt, and like, okay, how much money do you have to put down? Is it 5K? 10K? More? Let’s lay out for the listers right now, let’s say for someone who is really thinking they’re going to buy, maybe it’s within the next few months or next year, what can that person do within their finances and their life overall kind of to get ready to be in a good position to make that purchase a little ways down the line?

21:58 Sam: Well, you want to have a full understanding of where you stand credit-wise. [Annualcreditreport.com], we’ll have to check that for the show notes, but once a year, every consumer can get a copy of their credit report.

22:19 Emily: I just looked it up. It is annualcreditreport.com.

22:22 Sam: You really want to make sure that you have some money saved, you’re at a good credit standing, and you’re, I guess, mentally prepared to lose out on a couple deals before you find the right house. <Laugh> I would also say, if you do believe you’re going to be receiving a gift, to have that conversation a little earlier on in the process. We really don’t like to transfer money until we know things are done deal, but you know, prepping a family member or a spouse like, Hey, are we prepared to move around 10 or $20,000 to get this deal done, right? And then aside from credit and assets, your other main player is your income. We talk a lot about stipend income. I might know it better than some universities, but be aware of if your funding is changing. Usually, we have these annual increases.

23:25 Sam: But when that goes into effect, sometimes I receive funding letters that haven’t been officially signed. I’m like, we need to make sure you have a signed funding letter. And we do want to see some continuance, but we are not like every lender. We can still approve income even on a short-term contract. We look at the full picture, and Movement Mortgage uses common sense underwriting. So, if I can just show that you’ve always been in good standing as a student, and now you’re transitioning to this PhD in, you know, X science field or arts and sciences that we support you. We understand you’re a good borrower. We just, you know, there are obviously no guarantees because we want to make sure people fall into the right credit buckets, have the right assets, and the trio of how you qualify someone, right?

Advocacy for Grad Students with < 3 Years Continuance

24:24 Emily: Let’s talk a little bit more about that, because in one of our earlier episodes, it was quite a while ago now, season five, episode 17, we talked about this term continuance that you just mentioned. And at the time, again, it was a few years ago, the way things were understood regarding fellowship income–by fellowship, I mean, non-employee income, non W-2 income, awarded income is what I call it for my tax purposes. What we understood at that time was that fellowship income was sort of viewed differently than employee income, W-2 income, with respect to qualifying for a mortgage. And I was getting a lot of messages from graduate students and postdocs who were saying, oh my gosh, I was denied. I couldn’t get a mortgage. I couldn’t buy the home that I expected to because of the type of income I have. Not the amount of income, but the type of income.

25:13 Emily: And so, you looked into this, this is sort of how, you know, we started kind of collaborating together several years ago, you looked into this and one of the first things you found was, oh, well, if you have three years of continuance stated explicitly in your offer letter, which means this funding is guaranteed for three years, think like National Science Foundation Graduate Research Fellowship Program, it’s going to continue for three years. If that’s in the offer letter, oh, no problem. You’re golden. We’re going to be able to write that mortgage easily. Now that’s what we said in that earlier episode, but there has been some development since then, as you’ve been working more and more in this industry, you’ve actually gotten a lot of other types of people on fellowship approved. So, can you tell us more about the updates on that and the success stories that you have that don’t involve W-2 income and don’t involve three years of continuance?

25:54 Sam: Yes. So I have to kind of break this down into layers. So, what all lenders–that’s banks, mortgage companies, anybody who’s given a mortgage out for, I’ll say conventional loan–they have to go by the oversight committee, right? Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, right? Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have guidelines. And they are just mortgage laws everybody has to work with. Now, as you get down to the company that you’re working with, that company will also have a set of mortgage laws that are on top of what Fannie and Freddie consider, what they will ensure and take, right? Now, under that layer is your underwriters. The underwriter is similar to a loan officer. They’re a licensed employee of the company, and their license number is attached to every single loan that’s approved and closed. Okay. The underwriter basically can go either way with the income, right?

26:56 Sam: And a lot of times, a couple years ago, for me, I would always have to escalate my underwriter’s decision to their manager. Because the way the guidelines are written, they can be interpreted different ways, right? So let’s say this, actually, this is a real scenario that I got three weeks ago. Her name was Jane. She was buying in New York and she has exactly three years of continuance. Now the lender denied her because one month after the close date is when your mortgage starts and you paid in arrears. So you basically skip a month after closing. Well, when the payments start, she was under her three years continuance. So they said, I’m sorry, you don’t have enough time in your contract, right? So she got denied, found us online. I got her back on track. Her income’s been approved with Movement Mortgage, and she’s going to close on time without issue up in New York. As you get down to these layers, if you’re not working with the right people, you’re running into more and more issues. So what I’ve been able to develop is a way to present PhD income to an underwriter demonstrating historically where this student’s been, and where they’re gonna be going in the future. Technically speaking, the guidelines say the income must be likely to continue for three years. Okay? Now, if the underwriter can see that it’s not going for three years, they can say, I’m not budging. I can’t use this income. My license is attached to this. No. Right? Go get a co-borrower.

Interpreting the Word “Likely”

28:39 Emily: Because they’re interpreting the word likely in the way we would say guaranteed. They want to see a guarantee to think that it’s likely. But what you’re saying is, well, no, the word is not guaranteed. The word is likely. So how can we work with that word?

28:53 Sam: Right. I did a lot of due diligence before moving over to my previous employer Movement Mortgage, and I was able to get a guarantee from the whole entire company’s underwriting manager that I can take a PhD or postdoc with less than three years of continuance. Some less than one year. I can take them to a Freddie Mac product or a Fannie Mae product. This is advantageous to the PhD community, because there are other things that are so stressful about the home purchase. You know, putting a $20,000 deposit down can add a little, you might lose a half an hour sleep every night. I don’t want anybody losing sleep because they’re well qualified over income, like letters. It’s totally ridiculous.

29:42 Emily: This goes to that term that you mentioned earlier, common sense underwriting. Because I think the people listening to this podcast can clearly see from their own lived experience that graduate student income, whether it’s employee income or non-employee income, is pretty likely to continue. It’s certainly not more or less likely than some random job you might have, right? So like, we know as a community that this is very similar to another job. In fact, in some cases can even be more secure than a regular job. But the mortgage industry historically has not taken the same view until you, you know, went hard at work on this problem and started understanding the underwriter’s point of view, started understanding how you can present these packages, the language that they use. And like you said, with this most recent move, even prepping the underwriters at the company that you’ve recently moved to, Movement Mortgage, prepping them by saying, this is the type of, you know, letters and income verification that’s going to come your way. I need to know that you’re on board with this interpretation of the word likely and all the other factors that go into it.

30:42 Sam: Yeah. And one other thing about stipend income that was one of the main reasons I switched is universities will either pay their students on a 12-month pay cycle, or they will get paid semesters, right? So, where I was able to include someone’s fall and spring stipend, the summer stipend, because the pay changes, it’s a different pay rate. A previous underwriter at my old company was like, oh, we can’t use that income. It’s future income and it’s not guaranteed. And I debated with them. I said, the letter states that summer employment is often available for PhDs, but it’s not required. Meaning if you want to go to Europe, you’re allowed to go. But if you want to teach, here’s $6,000. That client of mine, he was able to get a co-borrower to solidify the $500 that they didn’t want to include monthly.

31:40 Sam: I took that same scenario and provided it to the underwriters at Movement. And they said, we see that he’s historically worked summers. And we see that he has this option to work as a teacher. And I was conservative. I did not include the higher income that I could have. He made, you know, $30,000 working for a different company the previous summer. I was like, I just went off the $6,000 that was within the letter. I would be able to close that here at Movement without the co-signer. And that just helps me get my PhDs closed with less friction. Because I see it as this is available income for next summer. So you get these layers, like what Fannie and Freddie will require, the lenders are a little more strict, and then the underwriter, you know, they’re on the edge of the fence. It could go one way or another. I couldn’t be happier working with PhDs. They’re responsive, understanding, usually very qualified, and they’re very, there’s no heavy lifting with doing these PhDs anymore. The back end, my team behind me, they’re the best community to work with. And it just doubles down of why they’re great people to approve for mortgages.

Reach Out to Sam at Movement Mortgage

32:54 Emily: Listeners, Sam does not just say these very complimentary things about you on the podcast. He says these things to me regularly about how happy he is to be working with you all. That you are such easy clients to work with, that you’re so responsive, that you’re so ready, that you’re so organized, you’re so responsive to email. Like you’re a great community for him to be working with. He’s really happy about this. Obviously, we have this personal connection that helps start it, but he’s off on his own now. Like he is clearly the industry leader in this area. So anyway, if it hasn’t already been clear through this conversation, Sam is working hard for you. Especially if you’re going to be buying a house in the near future, on your graduate student or postdoc income, his recent move to Movement Mortgage, he obviously did a lot of work on that. Making sure that things like inconsistent income throughout the 12 months will be included in your consideration for a mortgage.

33:44 Emily: So, all that to say, Sam, let’s wrap up here. I, of course, strongly encourage anybody listening or reading this transcript who is considering qualifying for a mortgage in the near future to at least get a quote from you. Doesn’t mean you can’t get quotes from other people, but at least get a quote from Sam. See what he can do for you. And he has probably the most experience working with this particular population of anyone in the U.S. I don’t know. Maybe there’s some random person in one random college town somewhere who also does this, but Sam works nationally. So, please go get a quote from him if this is on your radar at all to see what you could qualify for on your income and with the current interest rate. So, Sam let’s conclude one more time with your contact information.

34:23 Sam: Yes. My cell phone is the best way to reach me. It’s 5 4 0 4 7 8 5 8 0 3. And my new email address is Sam dot Hogan at Movement.com.

34:35 Emily: Well, Sam, it’s been a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. Thank you so much for the work that you do for this community and how much you care for them!

34:42 Sam: Thank you for having me!

Outtro

34:49 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Financial Advice for Newly Hired Academics and PhDs

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Inga Timmerman, an associate professor of finance and financial planning at Cal State Northridge and financial planner specializing in academics. Emily and Inga discuss in depth the financial transition from graduate school/postdoc to faculty member (or into anther type of post-PhD job), from maximizing benefits to optimizing taxes to budgeting for a new city. Inga shares excellent tactical advice and mindset shifts for someone experiencing a large income increase. She advises everyone to work with a financial planner and ballparks how much it will cost to get the right type and amount of advice for that stage.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

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Teaser

00:00 Inga: The best time to address those is before you get your first paycheck. Because somehow once you start getting money, that money disappears. And we used to live on so little money in the PhD, and somehow we survived. And now we make 3, 4, 5 times as much, and we still don’t have enough. So, you do have to make a few decisions.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 12, Episode 3, and today my guest is Dr. Inga Timmerman, an associate professor of finance and financial planning at Cal State Northridge and financial planner specializing in academics. Inga and I discuss in depth the financial transition from graduate school/postdoc to faculty member (or into another type of post-PhD job), from maximizing benefits to optimizing taxes to budgeting for a new city. Inga shares excellent tactical advice and mindset shifts for someone experiencing a large income increase. She advises everyone to work with a financial planner and ballparks for us how much it will cost to get the right type and amount of advice for that stage.

01:42 Emily: As a listener to this podcast, I’m guessing that you listen to other podcasts as well, perhaps even other podcasts targeted to graduate students and PhDs. I’m a big podcast listener as well, and I’d love to hear your recommendations in that category. You can reach me over email, emily@PFforPhDs.com, or on Twitter, @PFforPhDs. In fact, if you would like to hear me interviewed on another podcast or another podcaster interviewed on my podcast, please set up an email or Twitter introduction for us! Thank you! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s12e3/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Inga Timmerman.

Would You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:37 Emily: I am so excited to share today’s interview with you. We have on the podcast today, Dr. Inga Timmerman. She is an associate professor of finance and financial planning at Cal State Northridge, and she is also a financial planner. And she has a PhD herself, so she’s like triply qualified to be on the podcast. So, Inga, it’s such a delight to have you! Would you please give the audience a little bit more background about yourself, your education, your career?

03:01 Inga: Very happy to be here, Emily. Thanks for having me here! So, I had a real job out of college at 22. I used to work 80, 90 hour weeks and discovered pretty fast that a career in corporate finance and investment banking is not really what I want to do in life long-term. I did for about five years. And then the school where I did my undergrad called me and said, “Hey, would you like to teach for us? Do you have an MBA?” Like, yeah, I do. “Okay. Come and teach a few classes.” And I really, really liked it, but I realized that to really make a living out of being a professor, I needed to get a PhD. So, when I was 27, I quit my job. I looked at all the PhD programs I got into, and it was 2008 financial crisis, 2009, everybody under the sun was going to get a PhD.

03:46 Inga: So, there’s a lot of competition. And I decided to go to the school that would get me out the fastest, because I was like, every year I’m not working, I’m losing like a whole bunch of money, so we’ve got to get out of here. So, I went to Florida Atlantic University in South Florida in Boca Raton, and I did my PhD there. And afterwards, my first placement was as an assistant professor at Oregon State University. My husband was working in Los Angeles at the time. The commute was too much. So, two years later, I moved as an assistant professor to Cal State Northridge, which is in the Los Angeles county. And I’ve been there since. So, it’s been about seven, eight years.

04:22 Emily: Wow. We’ve already learned a lot just from that background story. So many good financial insights that you just shared. Incredible! And tell me a little bit more about the being a financial planner side of things, not just being a professor.

04:34 Inga: So, about when I moved to Cal State Northridge, I was hired to do financial planning. It’s a very long story on the side about how finance and financial planning fight and what’s going on there. Not worth it now, but I ended up teaching in the finance department, financial planning. And one of the things I always wanted to do is practice financial planning. So, I decided to open my own firm back in 2016, and I’ve been running it for the last five, six years, and I specialize in financial planning for academics. So, a lot of my clients are current academic academics.

Financial Profile of Academic Clients

05:05 Emily: So perfect. And the reason that we met was that another podcast interviewee, Dr. Leslie Wang, you’re her financial planner, and she recommended that you also come on the podcast. So, I don’t know if that episode’s going to air before or after this one, but check that one out as well. So, that is how Inga and I were referred to one another. So, this is really, really exciting. I’m so pleased to learn that you, you know, specialize in academics. I say PhDs here a lot on the podcast, that that’s kind of my specialty area. So, when you’re working with academics, is there like a rough, like financial profile that you have discerned from the people who come to you, maybe versus like the average person who would seek out financial planning? Like how are academics and PhDs financially different?

05:48 Inga: Well, there are two different types of academics who will come to me. The ones who are about to graduate and are getting their first job. For some of them, they’re going from like $20,000 to $150,000. It’s a huge jump in income. And they’re like, what am I going to do with all this money? What do I do? So, that’s really a good point to come. The other ones are people who’ve been around for a while and they accumulate enough assets. So, they have a lot of complicated situations to solve and they’re just coming, “Okay, tell me, am I okay to retire? Am I okay here? What am I doing? So, those are the two big buckets, and you do want to go to somebody who actually understands your lifestyle and what’s going on. Because when you go from assistant to associate, there’ll be a bunch of money coming in.

06:26 Inga: There’ll be some decisions to be made. When you first get your job, a lot of the systems are still on the dual pension versus 403(b) type, and you have to make the decision. And once you miss it, there’s no going back in most cases. So, there are a few very specific things associated with academics. I think it’s important to find somebody who actually knows those. The second part of it is that I’m always willing to provide you all kinds of advice you didn’t ask me about outside finances. Like you should move to a different place because your life would be better and cheaper if you do that. So, I think it just, it’s easier for me to work with people just like me, which happens to be somebody who is in their forties, has a few kids, and just trying to go through the financial academic life path.

07:11 Emily: I love that you mentioned, in particular, those two sort of time points when it really makes sense to seek out financial planning. That like, I’m about to start my high-earning career and want to make sure I’m set up to go forward in the right way. But also you get to see people and the decisions they’ve made, right? And the accumulation of those decisions by that point. So, I’m sure that your younger clients are benefiting from you working with your older clients as well to sort of steer them in the right way.

Money Mindset During Academic Career Transition

07:37 Emily: So, you mentioned you yourself have been through like this massive income decrease to go to graduate school and then a massive, I hope, income increase coming out of graduate school, and that that’s something you advise, you know, PhDs and people entering academia as, you know, with a full-time job on. So like, when you’re looking at people in that transition from graduate student or postdoc into like a professorship, have you seen any like money mindset issues, commonly, in those people that you’d like to tell our audience more about like what they are and maybe how to address them?

08:08 Inga: There are a few things that come to mind immediately, and the best time to address those are before you get your first paycheck. Because somehow once you start getting money, that money disappears. And we used to live on so little money in the PhD, and somehow we survived and now we make 3, 4, 5 times as much, and we still don’t have enough. So, you do have to make a few decisions. And I think the one most important decision you can make is sit down and do a budget before you show up to work. You know how much you’re going to be making, you know, approximately, what’s going to happen. So, figure out how much money is left after all the bills are going to be paid and where that money is going to go. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the YNAB budgeting software, because they always tell you that every dollar has a job.

08:51 Inga: Like there should be no floating money there. Everything should be allocated before you start. If you do a really good budget and you stick to it, you should have a very comfortable lifestyle. All the decisions will be just fine. And if you do this for 25 years, you will be okay. That’s really the one big thing that I tell people. The other one that is really worth mentioning is the housing situation. We go into these jobs, not knowing are we going to get tenure? Are we not going to get tenure? What’s going to happen? Am I going to like it? And it really should be more about, is this a good cash flow house to buy or not, regardless what happens to me? If I go, like, when I went to Oregon, I didn’t know if I was going to be there for a long time.

09:30 Inga: I realized really fast I won’t, but I still bought a house because I knew that the duplex can rent for an extra thousand dollars over my mortgage. So even if I leave, it’s a good financial decision. When you show up in Los Angeles and the condo is a million dollars, not so much. So you really have to think about, is this a decision good for my long-term financial implications? Or am I just buying a house because now I have to buy a house, I moved somewhere else? Those are two big things that I would definitely consider before starting the job.

Personal Factors in Real Estate Decision-Making

09:58 Emily: I’d like to stay on this like real estate question a little bit more, because I’ve become much more interested in real estate since I bought my first house at the age of like, how old am I, at the age of 35, last year in the hype of the market craziness. We bought in a high cost of living area. So like, I’ve kind of been through this recently and it makes me very interested in this. So like, what I really like about what you said is that I read this book in the last year called First-Time Home Buyer: The Complete [Playbook] to Avoiding Rookie Mistakes. And in there they have this really interesting sort of way of approaching the decision about real estate, which is what you just mentioned is what are my exit strategies of this house or whatever kind of property?

10:35 Emily: And do they make financial sense? So like, yes, I’m going to live in this house. It’s going to be my primary residence. Or maybe we can even talk about house hacking, you know, but it’s probably going to be your primary residence. But when you are exiting this house, whether that’s you sell it or you keep it as a rental or that’s <laugh>, I guess that’s it, you know, you go to another area of the country or whatever, like, is it going to be an okay financial decision too, at that point? Does it still make sense? So, that’s a little bit like what you were saying, right? And I think that added element to what you were just saying is that, when you’re looking at your first like appointment and you’re going to be there for you don’t know how long. It could be a few years, it could be a lot of years. At what point, I guess if you decide that you do want to stay, like not for you, you left that first position relatively rapidly, but if you do want to stay like, “Oh yeah, I can see myself having my full career here.” Does it make sense to buy then? Even if like the cash flow is not going to be good?

11:29 Inga: Ooh. So, this goes outside of money and now into our personal things we have going on in our heads. Some people are totally fine being renters. And in some markets like a San Francisco, Los Angeles market, it is perfectly fine to be a tenant for the whole life. You can always go and buy another vacation home, an investment property somewhere else. You don’t have to just have one place. But other people cannot sleep at night when they know that I’m throwing money away into the wind and it’s rent. So for those people, it’s not really about the cash flow, but about, can I sleep at night? And it is okay, totally okay, to make decisions that are not based on dollars, as long as you are aware what you’re getting into. I personally tried to avoid that because like I was like, “Oh, I just wasted some money. I can just take that cash and I can put it, invest it and don’t do anything and make 9% somewhere else.” But if you’re going to buy a house and you really want this house, because that’s your dream, it is totally okay to buy it. Even if it doesn’t make sense.

12:28 Emily: Yeah. I definitely think you’re describing me with the house purchase that I just mentioned. I’m always saying like, this is more of a lifestyle decision than like a financial decision. Like yeah, it’s okay financially, but really it’s because I want like stability in my life. Like I want to know I have this house, I’m going to be living here. I know what school my kids are going to go to, that whole thing. So yeah, it’s much more of like a peace of mind and stability thing for me.

12:48 Inga: I mean, to give you a perspective, I have three houses now in three different places. The latest one I bought last week. So, you know, at the height of the height, because it made sense.

Spend Time on Your Benefits

12:59 Emily: Yeah. Congratulations on your new acquisition! Okay. Any other like mindset stuff you want to talk about in this, you know, transition into the first post-PhD full-time job?

13:11 Inga: Spend some time on your benefits, because when you go to a university job, it usually comes with a really good package. And some people tell me, yeah, I’ve made my choice in 30 minutes. 30 minutes? I spent 70 hours on my benefits, like trying to understand them, to see how to optimize them, what you can get to pay less in taxes. And if you are not really sure how to do it, find somebody who will do it for you for 500 bucks. Pay somebody two hours of work and do it because you’re going to make so much more money if you take advantage of what’s offered to you.

13:39 Emily: Can you give us a couple examples of some of those benefits that people might not be aware of?

13:43 Inga: Like even the choice of having a dependent care spending account, healthcare spending account. So, if you have kids and they go to daycare, you have some expenses for them. Like it should be a no-brainer. We are going to max out the $5,000 because we are going to probably save a third of that in taxes. But people are like, well, I don’t really have the cash to pay for it. You’re still paying for daycare. You just have to pay less if you do it through the dependent care spending account.

14:07 Emily: Yeah. Good example. And that applies for everybody, even outside of academia, if they have that kind of benefit through their work.

Financial Goals: Kids’ Education and Retirement

14:13 Emily: Okay. So, again, talking about this like point you’re like launching your career post-PhD. What are some financial goals that people at that stage might want to be considering? We already talked about real estate. We don’t have to go over that. What are some other financial goals?

14:26 Inga: Kids and kids’ education, if you have kids. And a lot of it comes with where they go to college, where they go to school, that’s also a decision that needs to be made. I would say that’s less important than your retirement. Retirement should go on top of that. And retirement is really a big decision because if you do it right and you do it from the very beginning, you’ll just have to work so much less when you’re 65 years old. What you can save at 35 to 45 is like saving 30 years later down the line. So, please make sure you’re not just saving a little bit, but trying to figure out how to max out that 403(b) or how to take advantage of your pension, how to make the optimal decision for that. That’s another one. And then the third one actually comes before you even get a job as you’re deciding. In some cases, obviously, you have one offer and a job is better than no job. But if you have a few different offers to decide, or if later in life you’re going to move to a different place, it’s not just about the base pay. There is so much more to think about in terms of where you live, the state income taxes, what else you can negotiate. That makes a huge difference in the financial package.

Maxing Out the 403(b)

15:32 Emily: I want to stay on the retirement goal for a second. Do you often end up saying to your clients, try to max out that 403(b)? Like, is that something that comes out of your mouth?

15:43 Inga: Yep. That is like the number one thing. There are a few exceptions. In some cases, obviously the emergency fund in general will come before, but with a few exceptions where people are not, they have other things going on where the 403(b) is irrelevant, I cannot think of a better thing both for taxes and retirement than maxing it out.

16:01 Emily: I was also thinking about like that goal of maxing out. So like for a personal example, when my husband and I first finished our PhDs and like our incomes are starting to increase, but they’re not like I don’t know as high as they are now, for example, multiple years later. We at first were not, even though we were like really good retirement savers, we were not trying to max out because we had like this real estate purchase goal and we had, you know, other things going on. And so we sort of set like a percentage of our income. It was 20% that we wanted to save. And then after we ended up buying our house, which I’ve already mentioned so many times, then we were like, okay, this is our year. We can finally max out. We can finally like all, you know, pull out all the stops, like try to max out as much as we can. So for us, we were trying to balance a few different goals, but yeah, so maxing out didn’t happen immediately. It was a few years down the line for us.

16:46 Inga: And you know, that’s very typical because once you want the house and you have kids, there’s a lot of competing priorities. So, not in every case, you’re going to max out. But even if you started at 5% this year and every year you go up by 1%, eventually max it out. Worst case when you become an associate professor, well, now you have this huge chunk of money coming in you don’t really need most likely, that can go to the maximization. And if you’re a professor, you actually potentially could have a double maximization between the 403(b) and the 457. So you could just go wild in there, if you had nothing better to do with the money and put in $40,000 aside.

17:21 Emily: Yeah. The amount that you can stash away when you have both a 403(b) and a 457 is like really a startling amount of money. It’s very impressive you can manage to do all of that.

Commercial

17:32 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2022-2023 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at emily@PFforPhDs.com to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Choosing Where to Live

18:55 Emily: So, the third kind of decision that you mentioned is if you had, you know, competing offers, ideal scenario and you get to choose where to live. I end up talking about this a lot at like the grad student level with like, okay, you need to make sure that your stipend is going to actually like pay for your life in X, Y, Z city that you’ve never lived in before. Like how do you kind of assess that? So, are there any, like, what are the considerations for someone at that stage in deciding where to live? And I want to also like throw in something you told me before the interview, which is that you do not live in California, you have moved elsewhere and are working remotely. So like, what are the things that go into that decision when we’re talking about geographic arbitrage?

19:30 Inga: The two big things are cost of living, buying, or renting a place and the state income tax. So, it really comes down to that. So for example, when COVID hit and everything went online, I move from Los Angeles to Florida, and I’m still here commuting to LA once a week to teach my class because the price of the tickets and what I need to do is still so much lower than the cost of living I’m giving up. And some of the income being shielded from the California state income tax, which is very expensive. So as you’re making these two decisions, think about $1 in Los Angeles is like having $2 in Florida, and nobody’s going to double your salary to go to Los Angeles. So you really have to think about that and decide, “Okay. If I really don’t care that much about a specific location and I have a Boise, Idaho, and some North Carolina, like which one makes more financial sense when it comes to buying a house or renting plus the state income tax?”

20:22 Emily: Yeah, that’s really, really good to think about. We touched on this a little bit in a previous interview with Dr. Amanda back in, I don’t know, season one or season two. Listeners can look that up if they’re interested, but she said kind of the same thing. Like she was looking at multiple different academic offers and saying, “Wow, you know, they’re not adjusted that much based on the cost of living.” It made a lot more sense. She wanted to live in the Midwest anyway. So that made a lot of sense for her to like, accept that kind of offer, both lifestyle and financial decision in that case. So yeah, that’s really interesting to hear that your offers might not be too different. And it’s the same thing actually with grad students’ stipends. Like, yes, they generally will hopefully pay more in high cost of living areas, but it’s not as much as it would be to make up the real difference between those low cost of living and high cost of living areas.

Financial Tactics Beyond Budgeting

21:03 Emily: Let’s get down to a little bit more tactical stuff. What are some financial like tactics that you end up recommending to your clients? We already talked about budgeting a little bit. Is there anything that goes beyond that?

21:15 Inga: Tax planning is normally a big deal, but it comes later in life when you’re making more money. When you’re making 60, $70,000, let’s just say like immediately as a postdoc, tax planning is really not going to save you that much money. Once you’re making $200,000, you have two people making the same. It is a big deal. So you do want to figure out what is the least amount of tax I want to pay, whether it be from retirement, from where you live, from how you shield some of the benefits, it’s worth the consideration. And really making the decision, if you decide to go the 403(b), or one of those investment type accounts, 457, 401(k), you really have to make sure the investments you have make sense. Because sometimes you have multiple choices. Let’s say you have a 403(b), and now you have options between Fidelity and lawyer and somebody else, make the best decision based on the investment choices, and then make sure your portfolio building actually makes sense.

22:09 Inga: And it’s so crazy how nobody gives you this training. The only people you end up talking to are the reps from these companies, and their sole purpose is to get you into their hands. So, they’re not going to tell you, “Oh yeah, Fidelity is better than Vanguard,” or whatever it happens to be. You have to make the decision because I think at one point the calculation is like a $600,000 calculation if you max out your 403(b) for the next 40 years. It’s a huge difference what funds you choose, how you invest. And that is also a good place to probably look for some help if you don’t have the skills and knowledge.

22:43 Emily: I think some of my listeners, you know, they’ve probably heard me talking about like a Roth IRA ad nauseum, because a Roth IRA is like, kind of, well, the IRA is like the only game of town, pretty much for graduate students. And the Roth makes so much sense when they’re that young. But as you mentioned, you know, tax optimization and tax planning, as your income starts to increase, I’m learning that it makes a lot more sense of course, to use like traditional versions of these accounts in many cases. What I’m literally working with right now with my financial planner is on asset location. So, like what’s going to be in the traditional accounts, what’s going to be in the Roth accounts, what’s going to be in the taxable brokerage. She’s figuring all that stuff out for us because it can get pretty complicated at that point.

23:21 Inga: And in the end, you have to have all three. You have to have some rough money, you have to have some traditional, and some of the brokerage, if you want to, when you are old, try to take money out to make the most sense of it. So, I’m a big fan of the Roth IRA. If you can do it and you’re not maxed out and you have, yeah. Do it. But putting $6,000 in a Roth is not going to be enough for retirement. You’ll have to do more than that. And even at work, you have an option between a Roth versus traditional 403(b) for example, how do you make the choice? It needs to be thought through because that’s a huge implication down the line.

General Rules of Thumb

23:52 Emily: So, let’s assume that somebody listening is not going to work with you or another type of financial planner at this crucial point that we’re talking about when they’re deciding on their benefits. Can you give them any other like, pointers about how to make these decisions that are general rules of thumb or that most people would be able to apply?

24:08 Inga: Okay. So the first decision, if you have a pension versus a 403(b) type account, because a lot of the systems do, if you see yourself staying in the system and investing and being there for the long-term, take the pension. It’s normally a better deal. If you think this is a two-to-five year deal, take the 403(b), it comes down to that. And if you’re not sure, take the pension because you can always convert the money later on and take it with you. For the 403(b) type accounts, investment accounts, a Roth versus traditional. I mean, I have rules of thumb. Again, disclosure, they don’t always work, but if you are making less than $80,000, the Roth is the way to go. You are not getting killed by taxes. Most likely you’re going to end up with more taxes down the road. So, take the Roth.

24:50 Inga: Over $120K, and that’s for single, so double it for married, maybe traditional makes more sense depending how much you itemize, how much deductions you have. And between $80K and $120K is a very gray area. Once you are at the point where you make $250K plus, and you have plenty of money and you’re thinking, “Well, now I need to have a 403(b) and a 457. Then you can do a little bit of both. But in the beginning, if you’re making the typical 150 salary for a lot of the majors, the traditional 403(b) usually makes more sense.

25:23 Emily: Yes. Thank you so much for that general landscape of, you know, how one’s financial life may play out in this respect. Are there any financial challenges or financial opportunities that academics have that are not commonly discussed in personal finance circles? Like the wider personal finance community or financial planning community?

Financial Benefits of Job Changes

25:46 Inga: I think the job change is a little stickier or harder to change. Like a lot of the clients I work with who are not academics to them like, “Oh yeah, somebody offered me $15 more. I’m taking a new job. I’m jumping ship” because there’s always that kind of mentality. Academics don’t really think about money as much as they should. And I understand that some of them really never been exposed, who had never thought about this. And they may have a PhD that has nothing to do with money. But at the end of the day, I feel like it’s extremely important to think about this, because no matter what you do in life, you still have got to do all these things. You still have to buy a house. You still have to optimize your money. So, think about potentially changing your job, even though you might have tenure, even though life seems okay, can you make your situation better if you are to go somewhere else? Or if you got to go on the job market again? You’ll never get as much money as you do when you go in the job market again and again. Like your current job may offer you a match once or twice, may give you some more money, but the only real way to jump in pay once you’re full professor is to go somewhere else. So think about leaving or getting a new job, even though you’ve been here for maybe 15, 20 years.

26:57 Emily: Wow. I didn’t realize that academia was so I guess, similar to the private sector in that respect, in that you need to change employers to really make massive salary jumps. I have heard of the tactic of like getting another offer and then negotiating your current one with your hopeful intention is to stay. But it sounds like what you just said is that that, mm, it might work a little bit, but not as much.

27:19 Inga: Yeah. And I have clients who do that very successfully. Like somebody brought two different offers in the last five years and they matched the offer, but now they told her we’re done here. A third offer is not going to get matched and she can get so much more in the open market. So, depending where you are and how happy. And then again, if you are super happy and your life is awesome, who cares about the money? If you want to stay where you stay, you do not have to do it. But if you are okay with moving and thinking about money a little bit more, then there is nothing wrong giving up your tenure and starting somewhere else.

Finding a Financial Planner

27:50 Emily: Since we’ve been mentioning so much in this interview talking about like financial planners, sometimes people come to me with like, what is the type of financial planner or financial advisor I should seek out? And we’ve also talked about like the timing of seeking out that kind of advice. Can you give maybe people who are like finishing up grad school soon or finishing up their postdoc soon, some sort of reference point on like, how much is it going to cost them to work with someone like you like to make a comprehensive plan? Or how does the pricing work? Because I’m sure when they haven’t started that, you know, they haven’t gotten that first paycheck from the new job, they’re still counting their pennies. And this may be a concern and a barrier for them to working with someone at a crucial point in their career.

28:29 Inga: And so, this should not be a barrier. Find somebody who wants to help you, and then you can pay them a little bit later. There’s always arrangements to be made. So I would not stop myself for looking for one. There are different types of plans. Some planners charge even hourly, some do this quick start or focused plans. Like I do those, we focus on two, three big areas and I charge $1,500 for them. So, it’s a limited engagement for two, three months to get you through the most important things. A full financial plan will probably cost you between two and $5,000. I charge $300 a month for 12 months. So it’s a one year engagement. So we get through everything, but I’ve seen prices it’s typical between two and $5,000. I don’t know if it’s worth it for you to have a full financial plan to start with.

29:13 Inga: If you’ve been a PhD student and now you just have a few questions about the work benefits, a focused plan is probably the way to go. And those will range between $500 and $2,000, depending on who you go to. When you’re looking for a planner, XYPN is my favorite place to go because everybody there is a CFP, and everybody’s fee-only. And there’s a lot of debate about fiduciaries. No, not everybody’s a fiduciary who tells who they are. So fee-only is my requirement, which means that only the clients can pay you. Nobody else can pay you. And the CFP with probably five years of experience. Otherwise, these problems are pretty typical unless you have something very specialized that needs to be discussed, almost everybody there can help you.

29:57 Emily: I’m really glad you mentioned that. So, I just independently, you know, Inga and I did not plan this, but I also went through XY Planning Network to find my planner.

30:04 Inga: Oh, really?

30:05 Emily: Yes, absolutely. Because I know that everybody in the Network is a CFP. My planner, I made sure that she’s not being compensated by anybody else. You know, we have the, you know, fee model where like we paid upfront a little bit for like an accelerated plan. And then we also have like a monthly subscription. So it’s sort of a combo of those two to work together for one year. So like, yes. So I totally like cosign what Inga just said. And this is a great place to find someone who is willing to work with you and is going to be competent to do so. What I like about the XY planning network is that you can search for all kinds of different, like special scenarios that you might be encountering.

30:36 Emily: So, I really wanted someone who was going to help me specifically on tax planning and tax advising as like our main like focus. So that’s what I kind of look for. And also people who are familiar with like self-employment and all that stuff, because that’s what I am. But if you had other things going on in your life, you know, you’re an academic or you’re in the military or you’re receiving an inheritance or whatever, there’s a lot of different, you know, types of people who specialize in different things. You can easily find them through the search tools in that network, which I really like.

31:00 Inga: And they have over a thousand advisors now. So I mean, you can find advisors who like the color purple. I mean there are so many possibilities, and they’re all virtual. So you don’t need to have somebody local. It is really the best place to find somebody who’s unbiased and a CFP.

How to Connect with Inga

31:14 Emily: Love it. Inga, if listeners want to follow up you, learn more about you and your work, where’s the best place for them to go?

31:21 Inga: Probably on my website, attainablewealthfp.com. And I’m not taking any new clients for the next six months at least. But if you have questions, like you went to XYPN and narrowed it down to two people and you don’t know who to choose, I’ll be very happy to provide someone unsolicited advice from what I know. So, feel free to reach out. If you have questions, maybe I can just send you like a copy of a book. I teach personal finance, so I have a very short book I wrote for the students. I can just send you a copy and try to help in any way possible.

Best Financial Advice for Current Graduate Students

31:49 Emily: Oh, that’s a wonderful offer. Thank you, Inga. That’s very generous. Okay. We’re going to end with the question that I ask all of my interviewees, which is what is your best financial advice for current graduate students? So we’re thinking a little bit earlier than the population we’ve been talking about up to this point. It could be something that we’ve mentioned already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

32:09 Inga: I want to say get a financial plan at this point, but that’s a given. So, the other thing is get a budget. If you do not have a tight rein on your budget when you’re making 20,000, it’s only going to get worse once you make $120K. So, sit down and figure out how you can get a budget and have a percent go into savings, no matter how little you make right now.

32:31 Emily: I love that advice. I say this a lot about kind of graduate students in that phase of life, like you’re sort of building up your muscles in terms of like your financial practices, the money management, the, you know, the knowledge that you have and you’re really going to apply them. And it’s going to make a big difference once you have that big paycheck coming in. But right now is the time to like practice so that as you said, you don’t get to the big paycheck and say, “Whoa, all the money disappeared. <Laugh>. What do I do about that?” So, I love that advice. Well, Inga, it’s been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much for volunteering to come onto the podcast. And I’m really glad to have met you.

33:04 Inga: Same here.

Outtro

33:11 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

The Gardener and Rose Approach for Childfree PhD Couples

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jay Zigmont, who holds both a PhD in Adult Education and Certified Financial Planner designation. Jay has focused his financial planning practice, Live Learn Plan, on the childfree community, and his book, Portraits of Childfree Wealth, will be published on June 1, 2022. Emily and Jay discuss the stories and interview excerpts from the book and Jay’s observations about the relationship between being childfree and finances. Jay holds up the model of the Gardener and Rose as a potentially useful one for dual-PhD couples, which is what he and his wife practice.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Teaser

00:00 Jay: And I was amazed that people would share this. I mean, to be frank, people would rather talk about their sex life than their finances. But people were sharing it all, and it’s just amazing to see.

Introduction

00:15 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season 12, episode one, and today my guest is Dr. Jay Zigmont, who holds both a PhD in Adult Education and the Certified Financial Planner designation. Jay has focused his financial planning practice, Live Learn Plan, on the childfree community, and his book, Portraits of Childfree Wealth will be published on June 1st, 2022. We discuss the stories and interview excerpts from Jay’s book and his observations about the relationship between being childfree and finances. Jay holds up the model of the gardener and rose as a potentially useful one for dual PhD couples, which is what he and his wife practice.

01:10 Emily: If you’ve been getting value from this podcast, would you please do me a favor? This is a perfect time of year to recommend me and my work to an appropriate host or sponsor at your university or Alma mater. In case you didn’t know, I offer numerous personal finance seminars and workshops on topics like taxes, investing, budgeting, and debt repayment, all tailored for graduate students, postdocs, and/or prospective graduate students. If you think that you and your peers would benefit from my teaching, please recommend me to your graduate school graduate student association or post office. These recommendations help me get my foot in the door with new clients or remind past clients of the need for this material. If you choose to recommend me over email, please Cc me, emily@PFforPhDs.com so that I can pick up the conversation. It’s only possible for me to create free-to-you content like this podcast if I have paying clients for my speaking engagements and prerecorded workshops. Thank you in advance for recommending me. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jay Zigmont, CFP.

Would You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:29 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jay Zigmont. He is a CFP whose practice is called Live Learn Plan. And he’s also a PhD. His PhD is in Adult Learning from Yukon, and we’re going to be talking today about his kind of specialty within his financial planning practice, which is in childfree people. So, that’s kind of the topic, and specifically how like his career has progressed and how he and his wife together have progressed in their careers and trade offs in their childfree life. So, Jay, it’s such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for volunteering! And would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

03:06 Jay: Absolutely. Emily. So what I do for my day job is I help people understand their dreams and figure out their life and financial planning. I specifically work with childfree folks, which is a interesting area, because in finances it’s completely ignored. There’s no mention in the entire certified financial planning training of being childfree. So I try to bring a little bit of my own life and my research into the practice.

03:30 Emily: Yeah, that’s really, I just think it’s really exciting to learn people’s niches and like why they chose them. Obviously, I have a very specific niche in my like financial education stuff. So, that’s awesome that you’re kind of overlapping your own life choices with what you focus on in your profession. So, it’s a little bit of an unusual path, right? To get a PhD and then get a CFP later on. That’s a certified financial planner by the way, for those who aren’t familiar with the acronym. So, can you tell us how your career took that path?

04:00 Jay: Yeah, so I spent a lot of time in healthcare and academia and you know, everybody listening, there are probably some people who have done both those careers. And it’s always good, bad, and ugly. And across that time, the thing that was common was I was doing coaching. So, whether it’s executive coaching, career coaching, life coaching, academic coaching, whatever it is. And the reality is people are more willing to pay for financial coaching than they are for some of the other. And as soon as you do that, you need to start working on a CFP, become an investment advisor, all the other ones to cross the T’s dot the I’s. And what I’ve found is that I can combine life coaching or life planning with financial coaching and financial planning, because I don’t know if you can separate your life and your finances, but at least that’s the way I look at it, they’re all together.

04:45 Emily: I have the exact same viewpoint. It’s one of the things that has always like excited me about personal finance is that it is so intertwined with just your life holistically. It’s impossible to separate. And I think you really can like get to know people really well, what their values are, what excites them through how they are using their money or how they would like to use their money in the future. So, I totally agree. That’s really, really fun.

05:08 Jay: So, I’m also advice-only. So, I’m an advice-only CFP. I don’t do investment management for people. So, my work is around teaching people to do it themselves. So, that matches where I come from. But it’s also, frankly, different in the financial world, because I’m not charging an AUM fee or anything like that. I meet with people on a regular basis. I actually meet with them monthly and we work through their life finances and it just helps people grow.

05:31 Emily: I totally agree. This is a really new, like exciting model within financial planning. I don’t know if the listeners will be familiar with the AUM or assets-under-management model, but that’s where you hear like a, you know, an advisor’s charging you 1% or some other fee similar to that, to do all your investment management for you, but your model is completely different. And a lot of, I think younger planners are moving towards this fee-only model where, like you said, you’re paying kind of for someone’s time and expertise, but it’s a teaching relationship. It’s a coaching and guiding relationship. I’m working with a financial advisor as well who’s a CFP who works under that same model of a subscription model instead of this like AUM model. So yeah, I really, I love that.

Portraits of Childfree Wealth

06:10 Emily: So, in preparing for this interview, you sent me a book. Can you tell us about the book and the study that you did that leads into it?

06:20 Jay: Yeah. So, I actually started off with a different plan than my book. And, you know, when you dive into research, you have this idea of what you’re gonna look at and then it goes somewhere else. And I’m a qualitative researcher by nature. So, I really wanted to look at the question of what is it like to be childfree, and how does that impact your life and your finances and your wealth? And I’d done a bunch, you know, got a bunch of surveys, got a bunch of data, started going through it. But I was doing these interviews with these people, and these amazing stories came out of what their life was like. And I said, okay, I have to kind of pause some of the analytical work I’m doing and just share these life stories because they don’t exist. You know, and the childfree, they’re about 11% of the U.S over 55 are childfree. And a recent study in Michigan found that 27% of adults are childfree, but there’s no stories about kind of like, well, what does that mean? How does that work? What is that life like? And I was like, how is it possible that such a large group, I mean, we’re talking millions and millions of people, don’t have something, and in the financial literature it’s completely ignored? So, I’m sharing the stories, and hopefully people can go, “Oh, that’s me,” or, “Wow, I didn’t realize that was a way of life.”

07:28 Emily: Can you say the name of your book and when it’s coming out?

07:31 Jay: So Portraits of Childfree Wealth comes out June 1st.

07:35 Emily: Okay. So, I read this in preparation for the interview, and what I found fascinating is that it feels very honest. It feels very unfiltered, especially about a topic like finances, which is so sensitive. And a lot of people are not willing to speak openly about it. So, it is really exciting that you could, you know, compile these interviews and really share, like you just said, like exactly what life is like for these, you know, selected people that you included in the book. So, it was really a fascinating read. Disheartening at times, honestly, but also very encouraging at times. Because obviously different people have different kinds of stories.

08:10 Jay: So, you’re right on it. And I think one of the most shocking things to people is, being childfree doesn’t mean you’re rich. There are people in there literally talking about living on an air mattress. You know, I’m like, the way I look at it is, you know, if they had a kid they’d drown, you know, they just barely keep, and I was amazed that people would share this. I mean, to be frank, people would rather talk about their sex life than their finances, but people were sharing it all. And it’s just amazing to see.

08:37 Emily: Yeah, and I don’t know if this is one of maybe the threads that you pulled out of this set of interviews, but definitely in a number of them, finances were not necessarily like a motivation for making a choice to be childfree, but it helped a lot on that front. Like you said, some of people interviewed would not, I think, be able to financially support a child without some additional like outside assistance, the way they were earning and living like at the moment. And so, it seems like a practical choice as well.

09:10 Jay: Yeah. And I think, so because we’re talking to researchers, this is always a fun one. There’s a relationship, I’m being technical on that, between growing up in poverty or poor and choosing childfree. I don’t have enough data to look at correlation/causation, but there is something there, you know? I didn’t come up with it. I don’t have the money. And then I’ve made that choice. And I think that’s one of those that we’re going to have to dive deeper in to understand, but there are also people that have chosen, well, I’m not having kids because of climate or medical issues or all different reasons. So, I mean, they’re just as varied as the people themselves.

FIRE versus FILE

09:47 Emily: Yeah. And I’m sure this is probably typically a multivariate decision, right? It’s not just one overriding reason for making the choice to be childfree, but it’s, it’s a few things that all kind of come together. Besides the relationship between growing up in poverty and choosing to be childfree, what were some other like key observations or other relationships that you saw?

10:06 Jay: So, I think some of the interesting ones, I was surprised the amount of childfree folks that say they don’t really want to retire. So, there’s a lot of work right now on the FIRE movement, Financial Independence, Retire Early. And there are a couple people that are FIREd and some people like inadvertently FIREd and all that. But most people are going, I’d rather do what I call FILE, Financial Independence, Live Early. It’s kind of dimmed the work. You know, Ryan shares his story in the book of, he works 25 hours a week, never on Fridays, never before 10:00 AM. And like he could take his laptop and go to Palm Springs and do work from anywhere. And that’s really interesting because I think that might be a unique thing to the childfree community that you can get up and go and have that mobile life. But it’s also, if your goal is not retirement, it completely changes your financial plan.

10:54 Emily: I really like that you had that acronym that you explained a few times throughout the book, the FILE. And it reminded me of some of these other like flavors of FIRE, like barista FIRE and Coast FI and all of those. Yeah, super interesting.

11:09 Jay: Some of the people in the FIRE community will argue with me and say, well, Choose FI or Slow FI, the same as FILE. And I go, well, here’s the question? The question is, are you retiring at the end? And what you hear is a lot of FIRE people go, “No, I don’t really want to retire.” Well then you’re not FIRE-ing. You are doing something else. And I think the point I was trying to work through is if I’m not retiring, then my financial plan shouldn’t reflect retiring. And people go, well, what does that change? Well, it changes a lot of your assumptions, and it changes what are your goals, and how does that fit?

11:41 Emily: Yeah. That’s a really exciting concept. Were there any other observations or relationships that you’d like to pull out from the study?

The Gardener and the Rose

11:48 Jay: Yeah, I think the other one I mentioned in there comes out of me and my wife to an extent is this concept of the gardener and the rose. So, my wife and I were both PhDs, and anyone that has a family with two PhDs, you know how hard it is to get a career with two PhDs. Does that make sense, Emily?

12:04 Emily: I know it very well. My husband has a PhD, too.

12:07 Jay: Yeah. So, we get this trailing spouse thing, and it just, it’s a nightmare. My personal belief is it’s almost impossible to get two careers at exactly the same level at exactly the same time for two PhDs. It is possible, but I mean, it’s like you won the lotto. And what I heard from the childfree folks was people were looking at, Hmm, what are the options? And what my wife and I did is we look at it as the gardener or the rose. Somebody’s the rose growing, and somebody’s the gardener providing the support. And I have to clear, you know, that is not gendered roles or anything like that. It’s just expectations, because somebody has to provide support, and somebody has to grow. And my wife and I, we actually have made a conscious effort that we’re going take turns, you know, and that allows the rose to kind of grow and do its own thing.

12:54 Jay: And what you heard is people in this book saying, “Well, you know, we have two incomes. We don’t need both. One of us is not happy.” And I’m like, “So, quit.” And they’re like, “Wait, what?” I’m like, “Well, take turns growing and you can work this gardener and the rose approach. And I’ve got people in there that one’s creating his own video games and he’s doing indie game design and they’re living in an RV. He’s the rose right now, and his wife works in healthcare. It’s this thing that can happen where you can take these turns. Does that make any sense?

13:24 Emily: It absolutely makes sense to me. And as I was reflecting on this concept, I was trying to sort of apply it to like my relationship with my husband and how our careers have progressed. It doesn’t fit, I think, quite as cleanly for us as it does for you and your wife. But I see elements of it at different times and in different ways.

Commercial

13:43 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD Workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success! Now back to the interview.

Taking Turns

14:49 Emily: The examples in the book, as far as I remember of gardener and rose, were like the one that you decided of like, well, one person’s going to like take a break from earning or like earn less than they maybe could because the other person is financially able to provide. But from what I can tell for you and your wife, that’s not the case. You’re both working, you both have income, but it’s more about whose career is driving some other decisions in your life. Is that right? How does that work?

15:12 Jay: Yeah, so my wife is in the academic path. And as everybody here knows, when you get the right tenure track position, you just go <laugh>. So, we actually recently moved 1200 miles for her career, and you’re right. It’s not about income, but it’s about that support. So, if somebody’s going to be on that tenure-track path, there’s a whole lot of other stuff that needs to get taken care of. I mean literally like the gardening and the house and the landscaping and the, whatever it is and paying the bills and whatever it is. It’s not about money, but it’s about that support that you need to do that. Because if my wife had to stop and do all that while she was on this tenure-track fun, it would hurt her career. So, we take those turns. Now, mind you, my turn as a rose, I’ve told her 15 years I’m retiring completely and we’re going to get in a boat and travel the world. That’s it. And that’s what I want to do. And she knows that, but that puts a limit, frankly, on her career. But also, it’s a fairness of taking turns.

16:14 Emily: Do you think that the turn-taking aspect is like essential to the concept of gardener and rose? Or is it okay for a couple to choose permanent roles as one or the other?

16:24 Jay: Yeah. So, it’s a rough question. I believe that if people pick one role or the other, it’s way too easy for someone to be neglected or not appreciated or have concerns, let’s call it that. What I think happens is, there are some great stories in there of people that have tried to do the type of gardener and rose without the swap, but then the person that’s in the rose position feels guilty. You know? Well, I’m taking advantage of, well, no, if we know we each have our own turns, I can be selfish for my turn. You can be selfish for yours, and that’s okay. I think if one person decides, “Hey, I want to be this role forever,” and that’s their conscious choice, maybe. But especially when you’re talking about like two PhDs, that’s hard, you know? Fortunately, I can do my finance work from anywhere, but there are other career options I could follow if I was being the rose. So, I think there’s just a balancing act. Does that make sense to you?

17:24 Emily: It does. And I’m actually thinking back to, I’m not going to be able to like cite research on this, but it’s something that I think I read maybe during our premarital counseling that my husband and I went through about how it was maybe about like life satisfaction or something with, we’ll just say married couples, where they had an agreement about whose role was whose. Like maybe there was a working spouse and a non-working spouse. As long as they both were in agreement about what their roles should be, they had a pretty decent level of happiness, even if their circumstances caused them to be flipped. So, let’s say, you know, more traditional, let’s say the husband’s supposed to be the one working, let’s say the wife’s supposed to be the one taking care of the home. Well, the husband becomes disabled, and the wife is the one who has to go into the workforce. Couples who were in agreement about like what their roles should be were happier, even if they couldn’t actually live out those roles, but just having the agreement between them was satisfactory to them. So, it reminds me a little bit about this. Like how do you negotiate, you know, who should be the gardener and who should be the rose at any given time. As long as you’re in agreement, I feel like it’s going to help, even if maybe life circumstances end up playing out a little bit differently.

18:31 Jay: Yeah. And I think there’s some of that that nature does to it. You know, like just your life, your career, there are times in your career. There’s a great example, somebody in the book who just needed to take a 90-day sabbatical, just needed to like get her brain back, you know? And we’re seeing some of this with the great resignation where people aren’t really quitting jobs forever. They’re like, I just need to stop and do something else. And that might be just for a period of time. And I think you’re right. It is the clarity on the roles. But I think with childfree couples, one of the challenges is you have the time, money, and the wealth, the freedom to do what you want. And that actually can cause a little bit of analysis paralysis routine of having too many choices. So, by taking these turns in the roles, you go, “Okay, you’re the rose. Follow your dream. I’ll do like the day in, day out work and vice versa.” And it’s almost like it’s just a little anchor between the two of you. And it also gives people to think through that chance, like you’re talking on the marital counseling of, well, what are our roles? What do we want to do? And a lot of couples have never had that discussion. It’s just implied. And that can cause issues.

19:35 Emily: Yeah. I mean, I’m just trying to think about like two people trying to be the rose at the same time. And if you both want to be the rose, then you’re both also going to have to be the gardener in some ways. There’s going to have to be some kind of negotiation and agreement there. It’s a little bit more clean if it’s like, okay, clearly one person’s a rose, one person’s a gardener. But maybe there are ways you can work out, you know, different aspects of your life or something like that where it could play out a little bit where both of you sort of get to feel like the rose, maybe. This is maybe a little bit how I was applying it to the course that my husband and I have had with our careers. Because, like you and your wife, we moved in 2015 for my husband’s job.

20:15 Emily: So, his first like post-PhD job in industry. We moved across the country. And I was okay with that. I was starting my business. And so I was like, you know, I had a location freedom within my job, but I wasn’t making nearly as much money as I could have had I taken a traditional job after my PhD. And so, in a way, you could interpret that as he’s the rose, because we’re moving for his job. Our location where we’re living is determined by his work. I also see it as my husband was providing financially for both of us, to a large degree, so that I could grow my business, which has flourished over time. And so, I see it like kind of both ways in different ways, right? Location on the one hand, and actual like finances on the other hand. So yeah, I just, there are different ways, I think, that you could imply this framework, but I think it works.

Outsourcing the Gardener

21:03 Jay: Yeah. And I think the gardening roles can be a whole bunch of things. And frankly, if you make enough money, you can pay somebody to do all the gardening roles. Literally. I mean, you can pay somebody to do all that. And then you can have two roses. But as long as location doesn’t mess with it. Some people do look at it as the financial support and the other. But if we go back in time, and I hate to say these old gender roles, but the idea was somebody was doing their primary job and somebody was providing support at home. And I don’t think we realized how much work it is to provide support at home, with or without kids, there’s just a lot of stuff. You know, we need a new roof on our house. Well, that’s a giant project, you know? So, you’ve got to have somebody with the flexibility to do that. Or, you have to be able to pay somebody to manage these projects for you. And I think that’s overlooked because if we’re both at the top of our careers, then we’re going home and have to figure how to mow the lawn. Like, our brain just explodes. Money is not important. What money gets you is important. So, if you’re just working to make the dollars, and it’s not making your life better, change something,

22:16 Emily: I’m feeling this like so strongly right now because my husband and I purchased our first home, which is like a single-family like house a year ago. And so, we went from like apartment living as renters to this managing an entire house situation. And it is a lot of work. I was not quite prepared for this. So yeah, and we’re trying to figure out ways, like how much should we be outsourcing? How much should we keep, you know, us to do the work. But it is a lot, a lot, a lot of work that it takes to run a household. Yeah. And I definitely did not appreciate this a few years ago back when I was still a renter.

22:51 Jay: Let me give you a number on that one. I’ll actually give you the answer on what you should outsource. The question is what do you make per hour, and would you rather work an hour than do the work? So my wife and I, we have somebody come in to help clean. I’ll work an extra hour of work and not have to clean the toilets. I mean, that’s the math behind it. If you enjoy mowing the lawn, do it. If you don’t, <laugh> figure out your hourly and, you know, pick up an extra, you know, class or whatever it is to cover that.

Communication is Key

23:18 Emily: Yeah, this is like airing my dirty laundry on the podcast, but like literally my husband and I are talking about this right now with respect to a house cleaner. I am very confident that we both made more per hour, and that a house cleaner could do a better job and faster than we could do it. But he still has this like, idea that like, you should do it yourself or something. We’re working on that. That’s something we have to agree on together. So yeah, we’re sort of in negotiations about that right now. Is there anything else you want to tell us about this like gardener and rose concept?

23:51 Jay: I think the big thing is communication. I mean, that’s the bottom line of all of it. And I think, when it comes to finances, unfortunately, even couples don’t talk about it, you know? And here’s what I’ve found, with my clients, I talk about this type of concept all the time. The person who needs to be the rose, the person who’s burnt out of their career or whatever, the other spouse is perfectly fine with. It’s the rose that has trouble taking it, you know? Of saying, okay, I will step down or I will change, or I will do whatever. The other person always supports it. So, I think it’s that communication. And I think the other part of it is, what I’m seeing at least in the great resignation world is it’s not about money. It’s changing jobs for either meaning or, you know, whatever that feeling is for the soul, not about the dollars and cents. Hey, I want to make more in my career.

LifeScriptTM Deviation

24:46 Emily: Kind of tying into that. One of the big patterns that I saw reading through the stories in your book was this concept that childfree people, and the people are sort of speaking about their own experience, they have this sense that they can make changes in their lives without maybe considering how it would affect a child or maybe other people in their lives. And that they, in theory, have like a freedom to do that. Did you have that observation as well? But what I also observed is that they weren’t always acting on it. They thought they had the freedom, but they weren’t using it.

25:22 Jay: So, I have this moment frequently and it was in the book and also with just everyday people. And I look at their numbers, I go, “You’re fine. You can do that. You can make that.” And then you get this look in their face, like, “No, no I can’t.” And I’m like, “I’m looking at it financially, you can.” And there’s like this tension. And it happens with people that could cut back on work or retire or change their careers. And I think, you know, I just had a good conversation with somebody that’s this concept of like the middle class work ethic or the Protestant work ethic, which is kind of what you’re talking about with your husband, where I’ve got do this. No, you don’t. Like, so for childfree folks, our goal is not to pass generational wealth. It’s to pay for our bills on the way out. So, adding more zeros to a bank account doesn’t help. So, there’s a point where you’re like, well, I want to go on that, you know, trip of a lifetime or whatever. Well, then do it. And people are like, “Oh, I can’t. I still got…” I’m like, why? And I think it’s just this cultural component. It’s why your husband won’t let somebody else clean the toilets.

26:28 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. That Protestant work ethic thing <laugh> how people are brought up. And I guess what we see in the book is like people, you used the term LifeScriptTM in the book. And how people who have made a conscious choice to be childfree have deviated from the LifeScriptTM. But it sounds like even though they’ve made that step, some of them are still being held back by this like cultural conditioning around making radical changes or really experiencing the freedom that they have earned through their finances and through their career.

27:02 Jay: Absolutely. So, the LifeScriptTM goes this way. You go to school, high school, you graduate, you go to college, by the way, most people don’t even like pick where they go to college. Their parents put something on them. So, that’s part of the script. You go to college, you get a job, you get married, you have kids, you get old, you retire. That’s kind of like the standard script. So, childfree people threw out the middle of it. Like, nah, I’m not doing the kids. And also, interestingly enough, 32.1% of childless people, this is per census, will never get married. So, they even threw away the married part. So, they threw that all out. Cool. Throw away the part about job and career and like, it just locks up because, well then what do I do? And they’re like, well, I don’t like where I live.

27:50 Jay: Well, then move. And they’re like, well, but you know? So, another great example is people go, well, I have to buy a house. You don’t. If you’re childfree and you’re going to move every two years, there’s no reason to buy a house. But then people go, well, but how do I, you know, make money without a house? That’s fine. We can do reeds. We can do some other stuff with it, but it’s just like this, it locks them in. And I have to spend a lot of time going well, there are other options and working it step by step.

28:18 Emily: This is just that observation you just made is why I’m so pleased that you chose this as your niche, because some of those elements you just said, you know, the FIRE movement is kind of working on people’s psychology around this, but I love that you have that further spin on it of focusing just on the childfree community. Because they, as you said, you know, at the beginning they have different financial lives than other people who do have children. And they deserve to be served specifically with their finances. And so, I’m so glad that you chose that as your niche and connected that personal element of your life to your professional life. I’m just so excited for your business. Tell us where people can find the book and where they can contact you if they’d like to learn more?

29:02 Jay: Sure. Portraits of Childfree Wealth is sold everywhere books are sold. If you want to go to Amazon, Barnes and Noble, whatever works for you. And I can be found at childfreewealth.com.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

29:13 Emily: Well, Jay, thank you so much for giving this interview. I conclude all my interviews by asking what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

29:27 Jay: Let me give you something that’s a life advice, if that’s okay. One of our colleagues taught us this and I wish others knew it. He said him and his wife both were MDs, had made a deal that they don’t have to go to each other’s corporate events. You know, the Christmas events, all that. So, my wife and I early on adopted this and we don’t go to each other’s events, because frankly, we don’t know anybody. And it’s been the best thing for our life because we don’t have to have that awkward conversation and the other. And people go, well, that’s not financial. No, it’s a life thing. You know, I don’t need to have that convo. And by the way, it’s easy to explain to people go, yep, we have this deal. This is how we do it. We have separate careers. And it works. And it sounds silly, but if you try it, you’ll like it.

30:12 Emily: Okay. Very interesting. Well thank you, Jay, for this fascinating interview. Thank you so much for coming on!

30:17 Jay: Happy to be here!

Outtro

30:24 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance…but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.