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PhD Home Buying Updates for 2022

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In this episode, Emily interviews Sam Hogan, a mortgage loan officer with Movement Mortgage who specializes in graduate students and PhDs. Sam lists numerous housing markets where graduate students and postdocs are able to buy a home on a single income or two incomes and explains why the rising mortgage interest rates should not be a deterrent to buying. Sam also illustrates why qualifying for a mortgage with fellowship income has historically been difficult for graduate students and postdocs, but how he and his team have found a way to reliably get them approved. They wrap up the interview with explaining how Sam’s recent shift to working for Movement Mortgage is going to smooth the path to approval even further.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

S13E1 Image for PhD Home Buying Updates for 2022

Teaser

00:00 Sam: This is advantageous to the PhD community because there are other things that are so stressful about the home purchase. You know, putting a $20,000 deposit down can add a little, you know, you might lose half an hour of sleep every night. I don’t want anybody losing sleep because they’re well qualified over income like letters. It’s totally ridiculous.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 1, and today my guest is Sam Hogan, a mortgage loan officer with Movement Mortgage who specializes in graduate students and PhDs. Sam lists numerous housing markets where graduate students and postdocs are able to buy a home on a single income or two incomes and explains why the rising mortgage interest rates should not be a deterrent to buying. Sam also illustrates why qualifying for a mortgage with fellowship income has historically been difficult for graduate students and postdocs, but how he and his team have found a way to reliably get them approved. We wrap up the interview with explaining how Sam’s recent shift to working for Movement Mortgage is going to smooth the path to approval even further.

01:46 Emily: Since we jump right into the discussion of mortgages in the interview, I want to take a moment here to prepare you for what’s to come! Sam has been on the podcast several times before if you’d like to catch up on our previous conversations. If you plan to listen to them all, please do so from oldest to newest. You can hear him on Season 2 Episode 5, Season 5 Episode 17, and Season 8 Episode 4. We have also held several live Q&A calls in the past in which Sam takes questions from grad student and PhD first-time homebuyers, and I’ve published a few clips from those calls on the Personal Finance for PhDs YouTube channel. We don’t have our next live Q&A scheduled yet, so if you’d like to be kept in the loop on that, please join my mailing list through PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Links to everything I just mentioned will be in the show notes. You’re going to hear me being pretty pro-homebuying during this interview because I get so enthused about it when I talk with Sam and reflect on my own rental and home ownership history. But I want to acknowledge up front that of course homebuying is not financially feasible for most graduate students and even if feasible is not necessarily the best financial or lifestyle decision. In my book, renting is a perfectly valid choice. Don’t feel pressured to buy by this interview. It’s more about encouraging graduate students and PhDs who are interested in buying that it may very well be possible for them and showing them how to do it. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e1/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Sam Hogan.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:35 Emily: We have an extra special episode of the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast today because my guest is my brother, Sam Hogan, who is a mortgage loan officer with Movement Mortgage. And for the past several years, he has been specializing in writing mortgages for graduate students and postdocs and PhDs. And I’m just so delighted to have Sam on! By the way, he is an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs, and he’s going to give us some updates on what’s going on in 2022 and recent developments in the mortgage industry that’s relevant for our audience. So, Sam, thank you so much for joining me! And will you please introduce yourself a little further?

04:12 Sam: Thank you for having me. It’s Sam Hogan, I’m newly with an old employer, Movement Mortgage. And my NMLS number is 1 4 9 1 7 8 6.

04:23 Emily: And let’s get your contact information upfront in case anyone knows already that they want to get a quote from you.

04:29 Sam: Yes. So, my best phone number is (540) 478-5803. And the new email address for me is Sam dot Hogan at movement.com.

Homebuying Markets for Grad Students

04:41 Emily: As probably everyone listening knows, in 2022 we’ve seen a lot of rate hikes from the fed, which has trickled down into the mortgage industry. And so, I know that graduate students and PhDs are really concerned right now about still being able to afford to buy with these recent rate increases. So, can you tell us some examples of places or markets where you’re still seeing PhDs and graduate students able to purchase homes?

05:07 Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Some of our steady markets, I would say nationwide, are just pockets of the country where you can still find single-family homes or townhomes under $400,000. Whether it’s a PhD or postdoc buying on their own or with a partner. We see a lot of activity in North Carolina, and that’s within the Research Triangle and also outside of that area. I’ve had a couple of deals done in Winston-Salem for Wake Forest students. But outside of Chicago, Northwestern, those areas are good as well, including, you know, Philly, Providence, Rhode Island, for people who are going to school just across the bridge at Harvard or MIT. And also Austin, Texas, and outside of those city limits has been steady, no matter what the rate is. And I say that because with these lower-priced homes that are a little more affordable for PhDs, the interest rate, even when it goes up, it doesn’t make a huge, huge difference in your monthly payment.

06:14 Sam: Now, if someone was getting a high balance loan at seven, $800,000, when the rate goes up just a little bit, it makes over a hundred dollars difference monthly. Our first barrier and hurdle with the PhDs is, and will always be the monthly income. <Laugh> Not just including it, but finding a property that fits within that budget. You know, people who are debt-free and have a little bit of money to put down, still, it’s the monthly income that we say, Hey, 10% down is going to have to get the job done because the income is very tight.

06:49 Emily: Yes. Can you give us some examples there? Because I mean, you just threw out $400,000, which like is sort of breathtaking for me. And I assume that’s with two incomes, maybe people could afford that. Let’s talk about one income. Let’s talk about a PhD stipend. Maybe it’s $30,000 per year or something similar to that. If you had a person, a single person buying on their own with that kind of income of good credit score, no outstanding debt, I mean, we’re talking ideal candidate here. How much would they be able to qualify for with current interest rates? We’re recording this in August, 2022.

07:27 Sam: Most recent live data is a loan closing tomorrow and she purchased at $185,000 outside of Chicago with 10% down.

07:39 Emily: And what was her income?

07:42 Sam: She was a second-year student, I believe it was around $34,000 a year.

Keep an Open Mind to Possibilities

07:48 Emily: Okay. Okay. So, ballpark numbers. That’s great to hear. Obviously, like you said earlier, it’s going to be a stretch for a graduate student, especially a single one as I was just mentioning, to buy a home on a stipend. But there are some markets around the U.S. where this is still possible, and even more so if you do have a partner to buy with, or if your income is, you know, better than the average graduate student stipend. Basically, my message always when I bring you on is like, audience members do not completely dismiss out of hand the possibility of you owning a home during graduate school or your postdoc. At least look into it a little bit. Yeah. There are a lot of places where it’s not going to be possible, but you may be surprised that it is possible in some places.

08:27 Sam: Yeah. I mean, I have a client who is buying in LA right now, which people would immediately write off as way too expensive. She does have a second job that she has history of working. So, she’s able to afford a little bit more than just her stipend. I believe she’s going to UCLA right now. So, she’s still buying in the upper threes. You know, she does have 20% down, right? Which helps bring down that loan amount, but I’m only qualifying her off of the stipend and a small seasonal job. So, yes, she is looking at a studio with one bathroom, but that is what she knows she’s going to be comfortable with monthly. And I think just the biggest thing about owning in grad school is completely flipping your net worth, right? You could have a hundred thousand dollars of student loans going into grad school, but turn that into $200,000 net worth and then also rental property when you move out of the area.

09:31 Sam: So, even if it’s a studio, it’s still a wonderful stepping stone. You know, you get that first purchase out of the way and you realize, okay, you know, closing costs are basically the only thing I spent my money on that doesn’t go into equity on my home, right? And you know, learning these small steps of home ownership, like filing an insurance claim if you have to, or like, why do I have plumbing issues every month, right? Whatever, maybe my washer broke, what do washing machines cost, right? All these things are just, you’re going to learn them eventually, and the benefits of a five or six-year plan of you owning while, you know, progressing yourself personally is just unmatched, I would say.

House Hacking

10:16 Emily: Sam, you put that so eloquently, and long-time listeners are going to know I’ve said many times that one of my big financial regrets from graduate school when I went to Duke in the Triangle was not buying my first home when I had the financial means to, because I had a lot of limiting beliefs going on at that time about what home ownership was for graduate students. So, I won’t belabor that point right now, but if you want to go back and listen to some previous episodes we’ve had on home ownership, you can check out season eight, episode 18, where I talk a lot about my own limiting beliefs around home ownership during graduate school. And we’ve done multiple episodes with Sam as a guest in the past, but I would especially point you to season eight, episode four, which is when we talked about, the title episode is Turn Your Largest Liability into Your Largest Asset with House Hacking.

11:03 Emily: So, we talk a lot about what house hacking is, which is basically just when you buy a home that’s larger than what you need and you rent out one or more of the bedrooms to tenants slash roommates. And it can be a really powerful strategy for graduate students who are able to pull it off. So, especially go listen to that one because we, again, talk about all these like options for exiting a home ownership situation, if you are leaving the city, when you finish your graduate program or when you finish your postdoc. You could sell, but if it’s not the right time to sell, you could hold onto it, and it could become a rental, like Sam was just saying. Or there are other options as well. So, anyway, great episodes to listen to. Sam, is there anything that you want to add about like where graduate students in PhDs are buying and able to buy right now?

11:42 Sam: I can say reflecting on my last year’s worth of production, there were 17 states which I originated for PhDs last year, or I guess in a calendar year. I definitely see a lot of business in the Northeast. So, people who are going to any New Jersey, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut area type of university. I actually had a very successful purchase for a student who goes to Yukon. His name was Joshua DuPont, and he implemented a wonderful house hacking purchase. Couple quick data points on it. He purchased at about $130,000. It was a two-unit, separate levels. The rental comp on the second unit was about $800 a month, which exceeded his mortgage by about 50 bucks. So, he was covering his entire mortgage by having that rental unit above his. I’m not sure which one he lived in, but it was a perfect example of someone who was making the commitment for five years, and then, I mean, his opportunity now financially is completely different than it would be if he was the person renting that unit from someone else, right?

13:05 Emily: I love to hear that. I’m so happy for him!

13:07 Sam: Yeah. And that’s actually the third PhD that bought a multi-unit.

Rates are a Moving Target

13:11 Emily: Wow! That’s so exciting! Okay. So far what we’ve heard is don’t discount home ownership. It’s possible in a lot of different markets. Secondly, rates are going up, but it won’t affect these on the lower end of home prices purchases as much as it will affect larger-scale home prices. So, still go ahead, get a quote from Sam, get a quote from somebody else, see what you can qualify for just based on your income.

13:38 Sam: I wanted to touch on rates one more time. You don’t want to be 100% focused on what rate you’re receiving. Because everyone at that time of the year is going to be in a similar boat as you. Rates have gone up, people will qualify for less at a higher rate, right? But the main goal is to find the right house within your budget. So, whether that is off of a 5% rate or a 6% rate, it still has to be a comfortable payment for you. Okay. So, while you’re looking for your home, rate is basically a moving target, right? What a lot of lenders implement is a float-down policy. So, my client in Chicago that’s closing tomorrow, when I locked her rate, she was up at 5.625. You know, condos have a little bit higher rates than single-family homes, but we’re able to lock at day one when we decided it’s a good time to lock.

14:41 Sam: And then also look at a second day in the future that’s before closing to see if the rate is better that day. In her scenario, the rates had improved for a few weeks. And so, we ended up floating down her 5.625 down to 5.1 at no cost to her. So really, when you’re locking your rate in, you’re just preventing the rate from getting worse, right? You’re locking in it at, let’s just say 5%, for example. Your rate’s never going to be over 5%. Should the market improve significantly before you close, ask your lender about a float-down option. They usually have one. I would say if they’re a competitive lender that does a lot of business, they have a float down policy. Okay. So, mainly, the point I’m trying to get across is, no matter what the rate is, even if it’s at 10%, don’t be discouraged from buying, because you still have the equity you’re going to gain in the home, the amount you’re going to pay your loan down, your tax write-offs, and the ability to either keep or rent out that home after you don’t want to live there anymore. So, all these things, compared to paying rent, rent is a hundred percent interest. The only good thing about paying rent is you get to call your landlord and say, Hey, I have a problem. Instead of dealing it with yourself.

15:55 Emily: That is a good benefit of renting, and one that I miss.

15:57 Sam: It’s the best benefit. Yeah.

15:59 Emily: I appreciate your points about still buying even at higher interest rates, if you qualify, right? The question is, if graduate students were at that tippy top max of their budgets anyway, and increasing rates have caused their monthly payment to go up to such a point where they could no longer even afford a house anywhere in that market, if they were on the bubble like that, then it’s an issue. But if you could still qualify at the higher rates, like you said, I still think it’s a reasonable idea to go forward with buying. Especially because, you know, let’s say next year or the year after that rates are lower, again, that person can refinance. As we saw so many people do with low rates over the past 10 years. And so, it’s not necessarily that that rate is going to be your rate forever. As long as you can still get into the property. So anyway, it’s worth investigating.

Buying Down Your Rate

16:44 Sam: Okay. So, I’ll add these details from what I experienced originating at higher rates right now. Like you just said a moment ago, you’re already on a tight budget. That’s not changing. And rates going up, you’re going to qualify for a little bit less. It’s not going to take you out of the market because now the rates have gone up, and home prices are actually starting to come down in some areas, right? You’re not going to go, you know, over contract price plus 10 grand to get into the home. Okay. So prices will adjust for a smaller buy approval that doesn’t qualify for certain amounts, right? And then secondly, usually PhDs are putting down savings or they’re receiving a gift from a family member or a friend. Some even are selling a previous home and buying another one, right? So, the $5,000 you needed from a family member to close, you know, planned on, might be $10,000 now.

17:44 Sam: You might just have to put a little more down to qualify for that house you want, right? Then again, I still have people buying single-family homes in North Carolina for under $150K. So, if you don’t need more than three bedrooms, you’re going to be able to find something. And then the last thing I wanted to point out is the realtor that you decide to work with is important because they’re going to work hard to find something that fits your budget. What we know already to start is that it’s going to be a tight budget monthly. So, I want to get my eyes on every property that you’re going to put an offer in to make sure it fits for your scenario. So, the room for error is very small here.

18:29 Sam: What’s very unlikely is that you’re looking for a home and I’ve preapproved you at five and a half percent. And during that period, rates go up to six and a half, and now you don’t qualify. That won’t happen. Because the cost to buy down the rate, if it were to go up, would be minimal. So, the rate that you don’t pay for has gone up, but if you are willing to put 1% or even 2% of your loan amount to buy down your rate, we can do that. Sometimes it’s cheaper to buy down for a lower rate versus getting another five or $10,000 to put down towards your loan. So even with the tight income monthly for one, you know, grad student on a stipend, it’s still achievable.

19:21 Emily: That’s really good to hear.

Commercial

19:25 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2022 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15, 2022.

20:07 Emily: Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives. If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. Now back to our interview.

Getting Ready to Purchase

21:29 Emily: Both of us have mentioned a couple times so far, like, okay, you know, ideal buyer candidate, like zero debt, and like, okay, how much money do you have to put down? Is it 5K? 10K? More? Let’s lay out for the listers right now, let’s say for someone who is really thinking they’re going to buy, maybe it’s within the next few months or next year, what can that person do within their finances and their life overall kind of to get ready to be in a good position to make that purchase a little ways down the line?

21:58 Sam: Well, you want to have a full understanding of where you stand credit-wise. [Annualcreditreport.com], we’ll have to check that for the show notes, but once a year, every consumer can get a copy of their credit report.

22:19 Emily: I just looked it up. It is annualcreditreport.com.

22:22 Sam: You really want to make sure that you have some money saved, you’re at a good credit standing, and you’re, I guess, mentally prepared to lose out on a couple deals before you find the right house. <Laugh> I would also say, if you do believe you’re going to be receiving a gift, to have that conversation a little earlier on in the process. We really don’t like to transfer money until we know things are done deal, but you know, prepping a family member or a spouse like, Hey, are we prepared to move around 10 or $20,000 to get this deal done, right? And then aside from credit and assets, your other main player is your income. We talk a lot about stipend income. I might know it better than some universities, but be aware of if your funding is changing. Usually, we have these annual increases.

23:25 Sam: But when that goes into effect, sometimes I receive funding letters that haven’t been officially signed. I’m like, we need to make sure you have a signed funding letter. And we do want to see some continuance, but we are not like every lender. We can still approve income even on a short-term contract. We look at the full picture, and Movement Mortgage uses common sense underwriting. So, if I can just show that you’ve always been in good standing as a student, and now you’re transitioning to this PhD in, you know, X science field or arts and sciences that we support you. We understand you’re a good borrower. We just, you know, there are obviously no guarantees because we want to make sure people fall into the right credit buckets, have the right assets, and the trio of how you qualify someone, right?

Advocacy for Grad Students with < 3 Years Continuance

24:24 Emily: Let’s talk a little bit more about that, because in one of our earlier episodes, it was quite a while ago now, season five, episode 17, we talked about this term continuance that you just mentioned. And at the time, again, it was a few years ago, the way things were understood regarding fellowship income–by fellowship, I mean, non-employee income, non W-2 income, awarded income is what I call it for my tax purposes. What we understood at that time was that fellowship income was sort of viewed differently than employee income, W-2 income, with respect to qualifying for a mortgage. And I was getting a lot of messages from graduate students and postdocs who were saying, oh my gosh, I was denied. I couldn’t get a mortgage. I couldn’t buy the home that I expected to because of the type of income I have. Not the amount of income, but the type of income.

25:13 Emily: And so, you looked into this, this is sort of how, you know, we started kind of collaborating together several years ago, you looked into this and one of the first things you found was, oh, well, if you have three years of continuance stated explicitly in your offer letter, which means this funding is guaranteed for three years, think like National Science Foundation Graduate Research Fellowship Program, it’s going to continue for three years. If that’s in the offer letter, oh, no problem. You’re golden. We’re going to be able to write that mortgage easily. Now that’s what we said in that earlier episode, but there has been some development since then, as you’ve been working more and more in this industry, you’ve actually gotten a lot of other types of people on fellowship approved. So, can you tell us more about the updates on that and the success stories that you have that don’t involve W-2 income and don’t involve three years of continuance?

25:54 Sam: Yes. So I have to kind of break this down into layers. So, what all lenders–that’s banks, mortgage companies, anybody who’s given a mortgage out for, I’ll say conventional loan–they have to go by the oversight committee, right? Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, right? Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have guidelines. And they are just mortgage laws everybody has to work with. Now, as you get down to the company that you’re working with, that company will also have a set of mortgage laws that are on top of what Fannie and Freddie consider, what they will ensure and take, right? Now, under that layer is your underwriters. The underwriter is similar to a loan officer. They’re a licensed employee of the company, and their license number is attached to every single loan that’s approved and closed. Okay. The underwriter basically can go either way with the income, right?

26:56 Sam: And a lot of times, a couple years ago, for me, I would always have to escalate my underwriter’s decision to their manager. Because the way the guidelines are written, they can be interpreted different ways, right? So let’s say this, actually, this is a real scenario that I got three weeks ago. Her name was Jane. She was buying in New York and she has exactly three years of continuance. Now the lender denied her because one month after the close date is when your mortgage starts and you paid in arrears. So you basically skip a month after closing. Well, when the payments start, she was under her three years continuance. So they said, I’m sorry, you don’t have enough time in your contract, right? So she got denied, found us online. I got her back on track. Her income’s been approved with Movement Mortgage, and she’s going to close on time without issue up in New York. As you get down to these layers, if you’re not working with the right people, you’re running into more and more issues. So what I’ve been able to develop is a way to present PhD income to an underwriter demonstrating historically where this student’s been, and where they’re gonna be going in the future. Technically speaking, the guidelines say the income must be likely to continue for three years. Okay? Now, if the underwriter can see that it’s not going for three years, they can say, I’m not budging. I can’t use this income. My license is attached to this. No. Right? Go get a co-borrower.

Interpreting the Word “Likely”

28:39 Emily: Because they’re interpreting the word likely in the way we would say guaranteed. They want to see a guarantee to think that it’s likely. But what you’re saying is, well, no, the word is not guaranteed. The word is likely. So how can we work with that word?

28:53 Sam: Right. I did a lot of due diligence before moving over to my previous employer Movement Mortgage, and I was able to get a guarantee from the whole entire company’s underwriting manager that I can take a PhD or postdoc with less than three years of continuance. Some less than one year. I can take them to a Freddie Mac product or a Fannie Mae product. This is advantageous to the PhD community, because there are other things that are so stressful about the home purchase. You know, putting a $20,000 deposit down can add a little, you might lose a half an hour sleep every night. I don’t want anybody losing sleep because they’re well qualified over income, like letters. It’s totally ridiculous.

29:42 Emily: This goes to that term that you mentioned earlier, common sense underwriting. Because I think the people listening to this podcast can clearly see from their own lived experience that graduate student income, whether it’s employee income or non-employee income, is pretty likely to continue. It’s certainly not more or less likely than some random job you might have, right? So like, we know as a community that this is very similar to another job. In fact, in some cases can even be more secure than a regular job. But the mortgage industry historically has not taken the same view until you, you know, went hard at work on this problem and started understanding the underwriter’s point of view, started understanding how you can present these packages, the language that they use. And like you said, with this most recent move, even prepping the underwriters at the company that you’ve recently moved to, Movement Mortgage, prepping them by saying, this is the type of, you know, letters and income verification that’s going to come your way. I need to know that you’re on board with this interpretation of the word likely and all the other factors that go into it.

30:42 Sam: Yeah. And one other thing about stipend income that was one of the main reasons I switched is universities will either pay their students on a 12-month pay cycle, or they will get paid semesters, right? So, where I was able to include someone’s fall and spring stipend, the summer stipend, because the pay changes, it’s a different pay rate. A previous underwriter at my old company was like, oh, we can’t use that income. It’s future income and it’s not guaranteed. And I debated with them. I said, the letter states that summer employment is often available for PhDs, but it’s not required. Meaning if you want to go to Europe, you’re allowed to go. But if you want to teach, here’s $6,000. That client of mine, he was able to get a co-borrower to solidify the $500 that they didn’t want to include monthly.

31:40 Sam: I took that same scenario and provided it to the underwriters at Movement. And they said, we see that he’s historically worked summers. And we see that he has this option to work as a teacher. And I was conservative. I did not include the higher income that I could have. He made, you know, $30,000 working for a different company the previous summer. I was like, I just went off the $6,000 that was within the letter. I would be able to close that here at Movement without the co-signer. And that just helps me get my PhDs closed with less friction. Because I see it as this is available income for next summer. So you get these layers, like what Fannie and Freddie will require, the lenders are a little more strict, and then the underwriter, you know, they’re on the edge of the fence. It could go one way or another. I couldn’t be happier working with PhDs. They’re responsive, understanding, usually very qualified, and they’re very, there’s no heavy lifting with doing these PhDs anymore. The back end, my team behind me, they’re the best community to work with. And it just doubles down of why they’re great people to approve for mortgages.

Reach Out to Sam at Movement Mortgage

32:54 Emily: Listeners, Sam does not just say these very complimentary things about you on the podcast. He says these things to me regularly about how happy he is to be working with you all. That you are such easy clients to work with, that you’re so responsive, that you’re so ready, that you’re so organized, you’re so responsive to email. Like you’re a great community for him to be working with. He’s really happy about this. Obviously, we have this personal connection that helps start it, but he’s off on his own now. Like he is clearly the industry leader in this area. So anyway, if it hasn’t already been clear through this conversation, Sam is working hard for you. Especially if you’re going to be buying a house in the near future, on your graduate student or postdoc income, his recent move to Movement Mortgage, he obviously did a lot of work on that. Making sure that things like inconsistent income throughout the 12 months will be included in your consideration for a mortgage.

33:44 Emily: So, all that to say, Sam, let’s wrap up here. I, of course, strongly encourage anybody listening or reading this transcript who is considering qualifying for a mortgage in the near future to at least get a quote from you. Doesn’t mean you can’t get quotes from other people, but at least get a quote from Sam. See what he can do for you. And he has probably the most experience working with this particular population of anyone in the U.S. I don’t know. Maybe there’s some random person in one random college town somewhere who also does this, but Sam works nationally. So, please go get a quote from him if this is on your radar at all to see what you could qualify for on your income and with the current interest rate. So, Sam let’s conclude one more time with your contact information.

34:23 Sam: Yes. My cell phone is the best way to reach me. It’s 5 4 0 4 7 8 5 8 0 3. And my new email address is Sam dot Hogan at Movement.com.

34:35 Emily: Well, Sam, it’s been a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. Thank you so much for the work that you do for this community and how much you care for them!

34:42 Sam: Thank you for having me!

Outtro

34:49 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student Purchased a House with a Friend

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In this episode, Emily interviews Courtney Beringer, a second-year PhD student in civil engineering at Oregon State. Courtney joined the Personal Finance for PhDs Community near the start of grad school; the Community taught and encouraged her to create an emergency fund, open and fund a Roth IRA, file an accurate tax return, and calculate and pay her quarterly estimated tax on her NSF GRFP income. When Courtney started grad school, she was curious about the possibility of buying a home, and over time decided to purchase a house with a fellow grad student. By renting out two of the bedrooms in their house, Courtney and her friend have nearly completely eliminated their housing expense, even in a market where it wasn’t possible to buy on a single grad student income. Listen through the end of the episode for short bonus interview with Sam Hogan, a mortgage originator specializing in graduate students and PhDs, for his take on Courtney’s co-borrowing strategy.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

This Grad Student Purchased a House with a Friend

Teaser

00:00 Courtney: I know some people might be wondering, like, why would I buy a house in somewhere where I’m only going to live for four or five years? But like, I’m not paying rent or a mortgage right now. And I also get to hopefully sell my house in three to four or five years and make money off of its appreciation. And maybe I don’t sell in four to five years and I could actually move away and I can hire a management company to manage tenants. So there are possibilities beyond just the time where you’re physically in that city to use your house hack.

Introduction

00:40 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 18, and today my guest is Courtney Beringer, a second-year PhD student in civil engineering at Oregon State. Courtney joined the Personal Finance for PhDs Community near the start of grad school; the Community taught and encouraged her to create an emergency fund, open and fund a Roth IRA, file an accurate tax return, and calculate and pay her quarterly estimated tax on her NSF GRFP income. When Courtney started grad school, she was curious about the possibility of buying a home, and over time decided to purchase a house with a fellow grad student. By renting out two of the bedrooms in their house, Courtney and her friend have nearly completely eliminated their housing expense, even in a market where it wasn’t possible to buy on a single grad student income. Listen through the end of the episode for a short bonus interview with Sam Hogan, a mortgage originator specializing in graduate students and PhDs, for his take on Courtney’s co-borrowing strategy. You’ll be able to hear in the course of this interview just how excited I am to bring Courtney’s story to you. I am quite bullish on house hacking for graduate students, and I believe Courtney’s strategy can make it accessible to far more graduate students.

02:01 Emily: If you get excited about home ownership during this episode, whether as part of a house hack or not, I have two special upcoming events to invite you to. First, on December 16, 2021, Sam Hogan and I will hold a free live Q&A call where we answer any and all questions pertaining to becoming a first-time homebuyer. This is a perfect event to attend if you’re getting your finances prepared to purchase a home next spring or summer. Go to PFforPhDs.com/mortgage/ to sign up for the call. Second, I am hosting a live Book Club conversation in January 2022 on First-Time Home Buyer: The Complete Playbook to Avoiding Rookie Mistakes by Scott Trench and Mindy Jensen inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. I’ll even buy you a copy of the book after you join the Community. Fill out the short form at PFforPhDs.com/bookclub/ to indicate your interest in the conversation and I’ll be in touch about scheduling! Without further ado, here’s my interview with Courtney Beringer.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:13 Emily: I am very pleased to have joining me on the podcast today, Courtney Beringer. She is a second-year graduate student at Oregon State in civil engineering, and she is a founding member of the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, which you can find at pfforphds.community. So, what we’re going to discuss in today’s episode is how the Community has helped helped advanced, help shape Courtney’s finances in this first year of graduate school. And in particular, we’re going to focus a lot on Courtney’s house hack, which I’m really, really excited to learn more about and tell you more about. So, Courtney, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. And will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

03:53 Courtney: Yeah, thanks for having me, Emily. I’m happy to be here. Yeah. As she said, my name is Courtney. I’m from Iowa, but moved to Oregon for grad school. I have an undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering and I’m here for civil engineering. And yeah, in my second year of my PhD, I have a few more left, looking to do a postdoc after that and become a faculty member.

Finances Before Grad School

04:16 Emily: Awesome. Well, take us back to like when you were not yet enrolled in graduate school, but thinking about graduate school. What were your finances like at that time? And also what was your outlook about finances in graduate school?

04:31 Courtney: Yeah. Overall, I felt comfortable in my finances. I’d worked a lot of jobs in undergrad, and I actually took a year and a half break between undergrad and grad school and worked a full-time engineering job, which paid pretty well. I already had a really decent savings and I had mutual funds, but I basically knew nothing about retirement or buying a house or perhaps how I knew I was going to go to a lower income going to graduate stipend and how that might affect my change in lifestyle as well.

Finding and Joining the PF for PhDs Community

05:07 Emily: And so tell us about how you, I guess, came to find me and Personal Finance for PhDs and why you joined the community.

05:15 Courtney: Yeah, so about two years ago now, I applied for grad school and started getting offer letters coming in and wanting to understand how to compare them. And I was applying for a lot of different fellowships and wondering how that could be leveraged in my offer letters. And then I found Personal Finance for PhDs, I believe on just by Google searching and finding the website and then finding Emily’s resources and reaching out for that like 15-minute call. And feeling like this Community, it was really somewhere where I needed to be in order to grow and understand my finances as a PhD student.

05:57 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like you had some solid basis in terms of like a little bit of savings in place and so forth, but really needed more like of that grad school-specific, what is going on with fellowships what’s going on in academia, like kinds of questions, which is exactly what I try to offer. Okay. So we have a picture of, of where you are financially when you started graduate school, what was one of the first like actions that you took within your finances having joined the Community?

Open a High-Yield Savings Account

06:24 Courtney: Yeah. So going through your like step-by-step framework, I had savings, but I didn’t necessarily have a specific amount set aside that I should have in savings, or I hadn’t thought about it in a more critical way. So the first thing I did was look at putting a chunk of money that supports me over X amount of months in a high-yield savings account, because the one that I had always used was not that high. So I went through the videos, I chose my savings account, and based on the Community, I was able to keep myself accountable and was able to put in, like I chose the savings account and I just transferred my money in, and here’s an accountability step where I can tell other people that I did that. And yeah, now I get to check my savings out and see it grow more than it was before.

07:20 Emily: Awesome. I’m so glad to hear that. So, the framework that you mentioned is this eight-step financial framework that I teach in a few different places around the Community. I have kind of a series called The Wealthy PhD, which is both an e-book and now a video series, although that didn’t exist when you first joined. So I’m curious, is your emergency fund, that sounds like a step six emergency fund, is that right?

07:43 Courtney: Yes. Yes.

07:47 Emily: And so, did you also work through the steps prior to that point? Or was it just like, I have some cash, so I need to define this as emergency savings and put it in a more optimal place as you did? Like, did you go through all the other steps as well?

07:59 Courtney: I think, based on where I was at in my finances, a lot of the other steps had been covered, so I’d already paid off all my school debt, I didn’t have any credit card debt. I worked through a lot of that. So that was really like the next step that I had not tried to do yet, or even thought about.

Invest in an IRA

08:20 Emily: So step four in the framework is starting to invest. And you mentioned earlier, you didn’t really know anything about retirement accounts. So, did you also start investing, or have you been focusing on other financial goals?

08:30 Courtney: Yeah, kind of around the same time as making that emergency savings, I also looked into the IRA investing and watched those videos. And then in a similar manner, was held accountable by the Community and started my IRA, which I contributed fully to in 2021 and then already contributing to as well again. So yeah, that was around the same time where I was like, I have a decent savings, and I need to be doing something with it.

09:03 Emily: It sounds fantastic. Obviously you are an exemplary member of the Community in terms of like actually following through on the stuff that you learn inside there. We’ve run this a couple of times in the Community, maybe we’ll run it again soon, this challenge that I call like open your first IRA which people can learn more about that at pfforphds.com/openIRA. But basically- I just lay out like the seven step process for, okay, these are decisions you have to make, you know, to get from where you are to having your IRA open and funded. These decisions, these are the steps you have to follow through on. And I believe you went through that challenge. Is that right?

09:38 Courtney: Yeah, I did. Honestly those videos are so helpful. It helps you understand the verbiage and all the language that goes along with it. And I felt like I was making my own decision, but it was a very informed decision on it.

09:52 Emily: I’m glad it reached that tone with you because that’s exactly how I want it to be. It’s like, you know, I can’t tell people what to do. Like legally, I’m not like licensed to tell you what to do with your investments. But I can kind of give you the lay of the land, and then within that you figure out like what’s best for you. So I’m really glad it struck you that way.

Evolution of Courtney’s House Hacking Strategy

10:09 Emily: Well, I’m excited to talk about your house hack. So when did buying a house and even the potential of house hacking kind of come onto your radar?

10:19 Courtney: I feel like there were some conversations in the Community, actually, before I moved to grad school, I feel like maybe there were conversations in the Community, or I was talking to people outside of this Community as well about home-buying. And I was really excited to buy a home in Oregon before I moved here, but that was very hard to do during the pandemic and virtually and not knowing the area. So, I ended up moving here and renting for the first year. But then yeah, with the help of the Community amd reading through our book club, I felt like I started to learn a lot more about the house-hacking strategy and wanting to pursue that.

11:05 Emily: Yeah. So when you first thought about buying a house, were you thinking of it as you would live by yourself? Or were you thinking that you would be renting to roommates? Which I haven’t defined it yet, that’s what house hacking is, owning a house and renting at least one room out to somebody else.

11:18 Courtney: Yeah, actually at first I was like, oh, I’m in grad school. I want to live alone. I’m like becoming more of an adult. But then when I looked more at just the cost of living in this area, it was not as feasible as I thought it might be. And my first year living with roommates went really well. And I was like, I think this could continue. And I’m okay with roommates in grad school. So, then my mindset transitioned to more of the house hacking rather than living alone.

The House Hacking Strategy

11:53 Emily: And so, I did time our reading in our book club of The House Hacking Strategy for when people would be thinking about, you know, there’s a seasonality to buying a home. So we were reading that in like maybe Februaryish, 2021. So anyway, the book is The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop. I learned a lot from reading that book. Apparently, you did as well. How did that book influence the decisions that you made after that point?

12:20 Courtney: It lays out a lot of different house hacking strategies based on your level of comfort. And so I found the one that I was looking for, which was, you know, I buy a house and I rent out maybe one, two, or three of the rooms, and I have my own room, and my tenants could maybe be my friends or maybe not. And that was my level of comfort. It also influenced me to talk to my other good friend in grad school about buying a house, and we were both looking at buying separately. But then we compared our finances and realized that we actually wanted to buy a house together.

13:02 Emily: Yeah, this was, I mean, to be frank, I was a little concerned when you first brought this up inside the Community, like can this be done in a safe and responsible manner that is buying a house with someone else who frankly, you know, you’re not legally married to, which is the kind of easiest scenario under which to buy a house. Of course, many people do this with a romantic partner without being married, but then you’re taking that a step further and buying it with a friend. And so it’s very unusual, and you have to be careful about it. So I really want to understand better about how you did that. But like, I mean, you’ll explain it to us, but if other people are thinking that this might be, you know, feasible for them to buy with a friend and still be able to house hack and rent out additional rooms so it’s still a source of income for you. Like, I mean, that is a complete game changer in being able to buy in many, many more housing markets than a single graduate student stipend would support, you know, right now. So tell us more about that, like partnership that you formed.

14:00 Courtney: Yeah. So there was another first-year grad student in my program and we became friends pretty quickly. And then when we started talking about buying a house, I was basically able to convince her that it’s a pretty good idea to buy a house. And then looking at the market in Oregon, it’s just, especially if we wanted to be even within a half an hour drive of our university, it was not doable with the down-payment and with just our overall debt-to-income ratio alone. And so then, one day a realtor mentioned like, “Oh yeah, I actually just showed a house to like someone your age. And there were these two women that were looking to buy it together.” And I was like, “Dang, okay. I cannot afford really anything here by myself. But I can perhaps talk to my friend about this.” And so we had a lot of long conversations about our finances and getting to know each other and really putting it all out on the table. We made a lot of documents together, a lot of like signed contracts between ourselves because we wanted that in writing.

Co-Owning a 4-Bedroom

15:17 Emily: So this is amazing that this idea came from your realtor and, you know, you had a person kind of in mind as a candidate, and then you’re able to work out all the things you need to work out. It’s actually not that unusual in the real estate investing space to have a partner. But like you have done with the person that you bought with, like, you guys have to have some legal kind of protections and some things planned out and worked out in advance to make this work. But that’s amazing. So, would you feel comfortable telling us about the house that you bought? Like some of the numbers around it?

15:51 Courtney: Yeah. So we were actually looking at three-bedroom houses, but ended up with a nice four-bedroom that is only like a five-minute drive from the university. We, I think, got a pretty good deal on it. These sellers wanted to move out really quickly. And the house I think was asking for like 250,000, but we offered nearly 270,000 because that’s where the market was at now. And then additionally, we offered more percent down, and that’s what finally sealed the deal for us to get our offer accepted. Yeah. So now we are able to rent out two of our rooms. So of course, if you did this alone, you’d be able to rent out more rooms rather than having a co-owner, but it actually works out really nicely to have a co-owner for a lot of reasons.

16:50 Courtney: We were able to split the down payment, which was very nice. Our two renters actually pay our mortgage basically fully. So we don’t pay any portion of the mortgage. We really only pay a fourth of the utilities for our home. And then we are able to put more money towards improvement of the home and sweat equity and yeah, it’s worked out really well. Another reason that having a co-owner has been awesome is that if one of us leaves, one of us is still there to manage everything. And we actually split a lot of tasks. And there are so many tasks to do as a homeowner, right? And having someone to split them with is really nice.

17:32 Emily: Yeah. I think that there is a degree of work involved with being a landlord. And I think especially as like a first-time landlord, having a partner there with you to help you like figure out like, what’s the right course of action? Like, how should we be screening tenants? Like, what kinds of house rules should we set up? Especially for you, like your case, living in the same living space with your tenants, there’s much more kind of like roommate interpersonal stuff going on as well as the layer of like the legal stuff. So I think that’d be actually really helpful to have someone going through that journey alongside you.

Setting Up a Joint Bank Account

18:04 Emily: So those numbers sound amazing that the mortgage is pretty much paid by those the rental income. Of course you still have some additional costs, like you had just mentioned home improvements, and so forth. Do you have any like structure in terms of like each of you like maybe saves a certain amount of money or contributes to a common fund that you’re buying from? Or are you kind of like winging it as you go forward?

18:25 Courtney: Yeah, we actually set up a joint bank account, which is like yeah, a whole other thing to do with a friend, but it was super easy. We have both of our names on our home insurance. And out of our joint bank account is basically where we process all of our rental income and where we process all of our home purchases. Because one thing we haven’t done yet is talk to a tax consultant about what home expenses could mean for tax write-offs. And so we want to have that all in one place. And then we actually both contribute to our joint account every month, a few hundred dollars to basically invest our home, to put towards emergency home repairs, and just make up the differences of utilities and such like that.

19:19 Emily: Yeah. Thanks for clarifying that. If anybody is interested in hearing other grad students and PhDs talk about this like house hacking strategy, I’ve actually done two previous sort of in-depth interviews on house hacking. One with Dr. Matt Hotze, and one with Jonathan Sun. Well, the one with Jonathan Sun is actually more about getting a mortgage when you have fellowship income, which is another wrinkle in that whole thing. But we’ll link those two episodes in the show notes. And another episode that may be of interest to the listeners is that I purchased my first home around the same time you did this past spring in 2021. And so I tell the story of how we made that happen. And a lot of the sort of technical things that go into this, like the down payment and like the interest rate on your loan and verifying your income and all these kinds of things. So we’ll link that from the show notes as well.

Navigating a Home Loan with Grad Student Stipends

20:06 Emily: Did you run into any like hiccups with getting the loan or getting to closing like that were related to either, you know, the partnership aspect of this or the fact that you are graduate students?

20:20 Courtney: Yes. There are a lot of confusing things with income, and know that the title company is going to be kind of confused by grad student income. And like our loan officer, like she helped us a lot, but there still was confusion about like, how are you funded this summer versus the fall? Why is it changing? Like submit all the documentation for, you know, both types of income that are coming in. And then there’s just, you know, a whole other person that has to submit all their bank information and all their financial information. So that just means like more room for, you know, missing a document here, there things being delayed. It wasn’t a huge deal, it’s just more paperwork and more people to coordinate.

21:12 Emily: Yeah. I noticed with my own journey to homeownership that like, there’s so much attention paid to the, getting to an accepted offer part of the process. And it’s very dramatic and all of that, especially this past spring, it was yeah, a very dramatic time to be buying a home. But then all the stuff that happens after, you know, you go under contract. All that paperwork, all those details, it’s not sexy at all, but there’s a lot of work that happens in that period of time. A lot of work by your real estate agent, a lot of work by you and all the other professionals involved in this process. So I was kind of impressed in a new way with the whole industry and how it works and just, yeah, how much work there is that goes into that stage.

Sam Hogan, Mortgage Originator

21:50 Emily: I will say for anyone listening, you did not use my brother, Sam Hogan as your loan originator. But other people may be interested and we will link all the episodes that Sam has been on the podcast in the show notes as well. But basically, through our relationship, like I’ve been referring business to my brother Sam Hogan, because he is now very, very intimately familiar with all the weird kinds of income that graduate students and postdocs may have, and how to present a case to the underwriters that work with his company, that you are a great person to lend to. I mean, he’s not a miracle worker. So in some cases, funding is structured in such a way that it’s not going to go forward, but basically he knows like how far he can like push it to get things accepted that may be not familiar, not accepted by other mortgage originators. So I’m glad yours went through, okay. But if anybody’s having trouble or just wants to have a smooth like process from the beginning, please contact Sam. You can find his contact information in the show notes for this episode.

22:50 Courtney: I think, another thing I’ll add is that a lot of times when people buy houses together, they’re perhaps married or have a different end goal for the house. So, there were a lot of assumptions in just documentation, like by the title company and in our loan that, you know, if one of me and my friend, if one of us were to die, like what happens to the house? And a lot of that assumes that it will just totally go to the other person, or there are a few different ways that you can co-borrow alone. And those are things that you definitely need to talk through. We actually ended up buying like a $15 legal help guide basically for co-borrowers of houses. And that was so helpful and helped us make our contracts with each other.

23:39 Emily: Yeah. That’s awesome. What kind of loan did you get by the way? Was it conventional or a different type?

23:45 Courtney: We did end up doing conventional, yeah.

23:46 Emily: Okay. And do you each have a 50% stake in this, or is there some kind of other equity arrangement?

23:52 Courtney: We both have 50%.

23:55 Emily: Amazing. Anything else you want to say about how this is working out now that you’ve been in the house for a few months, and you’ve had your tenants for a few months?

24:03 Courtney: We’ve been in it for three months. We started with two tenants who are friends who only needed a month somewhere to live, which was really great to practice with people who are a little bit lenient and understand your situation. And now we have our two tenants that are going to be in here for a year, and it’s going really well. And we’re already making updates and improvements on the house. Yeah, overall, it’s working out really nicely.

Commercial

24:35 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Are you a graduate student, postdoc, or early-career PhD considering buying your first home in the foreseeable future? If so, I invite you to join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community for a Book Club discussion of First-Time Home Buyer: The Complete Playbook to Avoiding Rookie Mistakes by Scott Trench and Mindy Jensen of BiggerPockets. I and all the Book Club participants will read the book and come together for a one-time live discussion in January 2022. This is perfect timing for anyone with an eye on the spring or summer 2022 peak buying season. Since it might be hard to find this book in a public library, I will give you a copy of the book after you join the Community. If you want to join the Book Club for First-Time Home Buyer, please fill out the survey, including your availability for the discussion, at PFforPhDs.com/BookClub/. That’s P F f o r P h D s dot com slash B o o k C l u b. Now back to our interview.

Considering a Second Home for More House Hacking

25:39 Emily: Recently, when we spoke at one of our, by the way, inside the Community, we have monthly live calls where people can just show up and ask questions and talk about whatever people want to talk about with me and whoever else wants to come. You brought up the possibility of buying another home. What are your thoughts around that?

26:00 Courtney: I did yeah, me and my friend had been talking about it because once you do it once, it’s really tempting to house hack again, which is actually what the book recommends. And now that we have this house, I mean, I still need to do a lot of learning in what a home equity line of credit is, and maybe what a second house could mean. But essentially, if we bought a second house, then we could rent out all four bedrooms in our current one, and that would actually cover both mortgages and perhaps even rent out another room in a second house. So as you can see, it could just start stacking up and and improve our financial situation even more.

26:48 Emily: That’s what’s really amazing to me about these like big levers that you can pull in your finances, even as a graduate student. I’m not suggesting that this is possible in every housing market in the U.S. Definitely a graduate student stipend would not even be within striking distance in many areas. But if you happen to find yourself where you happened to choose one of these areas, owning your own place, especially when it’s combined with house hacking is one of these big levers you can pull to massively change your financial situation. And I would say actually that investing is another one. That’s the one that I focused on when I was in graduate school. I wish I knew about house hacking, I wish I had read The House Hacking Strategy if it had been published back at that time, because Durham was another place where that was possible for two graduate student stipends to do that.

27:31 Emily: But instead, I focused more on investing and that’s been a huge lever, not to immediately realize cashflow the way that you can with real estate, but in terms of like growing my net worth over the decade or so since I started graduate school, it’s been incredible. And so, if you can just get like a toehold into real estate or investing, or one of these other levers that we’ve talked about on the podcast, it can really dramatically change your finances over a relatively short period of time. And it’s just amazing. That’s part of the reason why this podcast exists is that I just want people to know the possibilities, even if you don’t want to follow through that’s okay. But just know the possibilities that are out there. Even for someone like a graduate student. So I’m so happy to have you on here because especially this new wrinkle to your story of buying with a partner, instead of on your own or with someone you’re married to or et cetera, of buying with a friend like this is an amazing solution that never would’ve occurred to me. And I’m so glad that, you know, you introduced me to it.

Final Thoughts on Real Estate

28:26 Emily: Is there anything more that you want to say about real estate or the house hack?

28:31 Courtney: Now that I’ve had more conversations about real estate and been listening to more podcasts in general about real estate, I’m realizing how good of an investment it is. And I know some people might be wondering, like why would I buy a house in somewhere where I’m only going to live for four or five years? But like, I’m not paying rent or a mortgage right now. And I also get to hopefully sell my house in three to four or five years and make money off of its appreciation. And maybe I don’t sell in four to five years and I could actually move away and I can hire a management company to manage tenants at this place that I I don’t even live in Oregon maybe anymore. So there’s possibilities beyond just the time where you’re physically in that city to use your house hack.

The Community and Quarterly Estimated Taxes

29:24 Emily: I think that’s an excellent point because that’s definitely something that I got hung up with. I talked about this in my episode on making our first home purchase that I have a bit of like regret that we didn’t buy earlier, because one of the things that was holding me up about it was thinking I’m only planning on being in this city for three, four, five more years. Does it make sense to buy? And that’s a very valid question to be asking, but you have to know again about these other possibilities of one, house hacking, which completely changes the math of, you know, the break even point of renting versus buying. And two, the possibility of holding onto that property longer, if you still think that it’s a good investment at the time that you leave the city. So I’m really glad that you brought those points up. Something else that I know that you’ve used the Community for is your tax return slash your quarterly estimated taxes. So can you just let us know how that resource has helped you?

30:16 Courtney: Yeah. My parents had always sort of handled my taxes and sent it off to some tax person and I was just sending W2s places. And the tax workshop through the Community helped me understand what’s actually going on, what numbers matter, and how I could do them on my own based on getting a graduate assistantship sort of stipend. And now that I have a fellowship that just started one month ago, I’ll be making quarterly estimated taxes on that. And so, additionally, that workshop is so helpful in understanding how to go through that process as well. So I feel way more informed about taxes and how to do them on my own. And I think I ended up filing my taxes for free this past year. So that was really awesome.

Emily’s Tax Workshops

31:08 Emily: That is awesome. Yeah. Specifically, the two workshops you’re referencing are, I have one during tax season for graduate students called How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!). If you’re interested in learning about just that workshop, you can find it at pfforphds.com/taxworkshop. So, that’s during tax season for your annual tax return. And like you said, it explains a lot around like how the types of income that graduate students have, and graduate students tend to have more income types than they think they do, how that all fits in with like the IRS language. And my goal is really to kind of teach you enough so that you can either prepare your taxes on your own, which sounds like probably is what you did, or interface with tax software or a professional tax preparer in such a way that they understand what you’re talking about and your sources of income and expenses and what’s relevant, and what’s not. Yes, you can speak their language. And so you can get an accurate tax return prepared that minimizes, ideally, your tax liability.

32:02 Emily: And then the other one is for fellowship income, and by that, I mean, non-W2 income at the postbac, grad student, or postdoc levels. And that’s at PFforPhds.com/QETax, QE for quarterly estimated. And yeah, all the things that we’ve mentioned so far are available inside the Community PFforPhDs.community for just a monthly subscription fee. That’s actually pretty much equivalent to, if you bought one tax workshop, you may as well be in the Community for a month. If you buy the other one, may as well be in the Community for a month. So that’s kind of how the pricing works. Anything else you’d like to add about the tax journey that you’ve been on? Actually, I’ll add something first, if you don’t mind. I love that you figured out the grad student part of your tax return in 2020, or rather for your 2020 taxes, because now your 2021 is going to be a lot more complicated with the real estate stuff. And so at least at this point, I’m assuming you’ll use a professional tax preparer, but you already have a good understanding of this aspect of your situation. You can rely on that person to do the real estate part, right? And come together and have an accurate tax return together.

33:04 Courtney: Yeah, definitely going to have a different tax situation this year, but certainly go through that quarterly estimated tax workshop. And I feel like I can talk to a tax preparer in a lot more informed ways and say exactly what my situation is and what I need. So that’s been really helpful.

33:22 Emily: Yeah. Any closing comments about being part of the Community or anything else that you’ve gained from it?

33:29 Courtney: I would say the conversations with other PhD students and what they’ve tried and what they liked and what they didn’t, just even talking to people like what tax preparing software did you use? What did you like about it? What didn’t you? You know, like how has preparing your quarterly estimated taxes been? How much time does that take you, or how much time should it even take me? All those sort of questions are really nice to be able to talk to other grad students about, and that’s what I get from being in the Community.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

33:55 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. It’s been absolutely wonderful to have you in the Community. And we’ve really gotten to know each other through these, as I said, monthly live calls, especially. Okay. Last question that I end, all my interviews on is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? It could be something that we’ve touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

34:17 Courtney: I would say, for me at least starting out earlier was, or even pre-PhD, was applying to a lot of fellowships. And if you’re someone who’s applying for their PhD programs, having a fellowship as a leveraging tool is a great way to get into the school you want to get into, work with the professor you want to work with. And also I mean at Oregon State, at least, my graduate research assistantship is a decent amount, but my fellowship definitely is more than that and helps support my personal finances better. I am a recipient of the National Science Foundation Graduate Research Fellowship, and that’s been an awesome tool to get into the places I want to get into and make more money as a grad student.

35:15 Emily: Yeah. So the advice is apply, apply, apply, and apply well. And I would say, you know, that’s awesome advice for people entering graduate school. It’s great advice for people still in graduate school and so forth. There are a lot of fellowships available for first year, second years. Less so a little bit later on, but they’re still there and you can still keep applying. Especially if you already have the feather in your cap of having the NSFGRP, for example, that’s going to go on your CV, it’s going to make it, you know, you’ll be that much more of a standout candidate for whatever awards you apply for after this point. So that’s amazing, Courtney, thank you so much for volunteering to be on this episode. It’s been lovely to have you!

35:51 Courtney: Yeah, thanks, Emily!

Addendum with Sam Hogan

35:59 Emily: Welcome to the addendum to the Courtney Beringer episode. Thanks for sticking around. I have with me Sam Hogan, who is a mortgage originator with Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage). He is an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs and my brother. And Sam has been on the podcast multiple times before. The chief episodes to listen to are season eight, episode four, where we discussed house hacking in great detail. So if you like the strategy that Courtney used, check that one out. There’s also season five, episode 17, where we specifically discussed qualifying for a mortgage with fellowship income. Although there have been updates since then. So if you want some updates, I actually have some on my YouTube channel from some previous Q&As that we did with Sam. So Personal Finance for PhDs is the name of my YouTube channel. Anyway, long-winded intro, Sam, please reintroduce yourself to the audience.

36:48 Sam: Thank you for having me Emily. Yes. I’m Sam Hogan and I work with Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage). We’re a national lender. My NMLS ID is 1 4 9 1 7 8 6.

Sam Hogan’s Contact Info

36:59 Emily: How can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about getting a mortgage for themselves?

37:05 Sam: The best way to reach me is definitely by text. My cell phone is (540) 478-5803. Standard data message rates apply. And if that doesn’t work, my email is sam.hogan@movement.com.

37:24 Emily: Perfect. And I should also mention that Sam, because of our sibling relationship, Sam has been actually kind of specializing in graduate students and postdocs and early-career PhDs within the mortgage industry for the past several years. He has lots of experience in this area. So, Sam, you know, I kind of briefed you on what this interview with Courtney was about. And her, to me, very unusual and very interesting strategy of buying a home with a friend. I never talked to anyone who did that before, but it definitely seems to me that if you’re careful about it, this could be a really game-changing strategy for people who could not otherwise, you know, buy a home on their own in their own housing markets. So I wanted to know from you, strictly from a lender’s perspective, now we’re not talking about from a legal perspective about whether this is a good idea or not, but strictly from a lender’s perspective, are there any issues that are posed by putting two, like unmarried or otherwise unrelated, people together on a mortgage?

Lender’s Perspective on (Unrelated) Co-Borrowers

38:19 Sam: There’s not. It’s the same simple steps as having another co-borrower even if you’re related to them. So, normal process, like Courtney touched on, you know, just double the paperwork. And there’s no shame in bringing on a co-borrower even if you’re unrelated or a friend, to jump on a mortgage and then, you know, as long as everyone can stay responsible and consistent, then it’s very little risk.

38:47 Emily: Is it pretty common for there to be co-borrowers on a mortgage? Let’s say, aside from a married couple, is it pretty common to have a parent or another relative or a sibling or a friend or something like that going on?

38:59 Sam: I would say about 50% of the loans we originate have co-borrowers on them.

Exit Strategies for Co-Borrowers

39:07 Emily: Can you just kind of at a high level go over what are the exit strategies? Not for Courtney, specifically, but let’s say we had another person listening who’s like, “Oh wow, my best friend and I would love to buy together, but of course we don’t want to be in a house together indefinitely.” So how, if you enter into this kind of relationship, how can you later on dissolve it?

39:27 Sam: Refinancing off is one. You can obviously sell the property and pay off the mortgage. You could turn the property into a rental. That would allow you to cover the mortgage, maybe some extra income. But that would actually keep both borrowers on the loan. If one borrower wanted to move away, recoup what they’ve gained from home ownership and moved on to their next goal. The borrower that’s still living in the property could take a key lock, a home equity line of credit against the home, which is not refinancing. It’s just basically a line of credit given to you in cash for however much you need. Obviously you’d have to meet the regulations and rules for loan to value, but you can’t take 100% of the value of your home out, for example. But they would take a line of credit.

40:23 Sam: You would be able to pay out your original co-borrower that got you into the loan. Say, “Hey, this is 50% of the equity we’ve gained over the last X amount of years.” And just on top of that money being sent, just have something in writing. I’m not an attorney or anything, but just disclosing that, “Hey, we, we made an agreement. You know, I’m going to have full ownership and take you off the title and have a put claim deed filed. So you’re off the title, then we’re going to pay you some equity from the home.” That would be the easiest way to do it. Yeah. It’s not as complicated as people would think. Like you’re not signing your life away forever. You’re just signing to get into it. And if you want it to, you know, change your living scenario year later, it’s definitely possible.

41:07 Emily: Okay. Yeah. Thank you for that insight. So I just want to say again, the message that I want to get across here from Sam is like that this is not that unusual, not that complicated. You can get out of it in a variety of ways once you want to. But of course, we’re talking with a mortgage originator. We’re not talking with a lawyer. So like there’s other perhaps documents and like official contracts and things that have to be filed that’s sort of beyond the scope of our conversation, but from your perspective, this is not really a big deal from a lending perspective.

41:39 Sam: No, I mean, title companies even have ways to state this that are common, right? That is, two tenants having 50% ownership of this property. So it’s not abnormal. I wish it would become a little bit more mainstream with some of our, you know, younger renters, people who want to be in home ownership but just either don’t know or don’t know how, or are just a little nervous to execute.

Live Q&A with Emily and Sam

42:07 Emily: We have something else exciting to announce, which is that Sam and I are doing another live Q&A call. So we’ve done, we did a couple of these earlier in 2021 during the, you know, peak of the buying season. We’re doing another one on December 16th, 2021 at 5:00 PM Pacific. So basically with this kind of session, you sign up, you can sign up at PFforPhDs.com/mortgage, and just show up with your questions. And Sam, or I might be able to contribute something as well. Mostly Sam, will answer those questions to the best of his ability. And yeah, this is a great way to kind of get prepped. If you are thinking about buying in spring 2022, or maybe shortly after that, this is a great time to be like, sort of getting your ducks in a row and Sam can help you figure out the steps that you need to take to do that. So again, if you want to sign up, PFforPhDs.com/mortgage for the event on December 16th at 5:00 PM. Sam and I will both be in attendance and happy to answer your questions. So thanks so much Sam, for giving this additional insight into Courtney’s fantastic idea.

43:10 Sam: Yes. Thank you for having me! And as always, let me know if you have any questions.

Outtro

43:19 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Can I Qualify for a Mortgage with a Short-Term Fellowship or on an F-1 Visa?

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In this episode, Emily shares a few clips from the first-time homebuyer Q&A that she hosted with Sam Hogan on May 6, 2021. Sam is a mortgage originator with Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage) specializing in graduate students and PhDs, an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs, and Emily’s brother. The first pair of questions is on whether having three years left on your fellowship offer is required to get a mortgage. The second pair of questions is on qualifying for a mortgage if you’re on an F-1 visa. These questions are among the most common that Sam receives.

Previous Episodes with Sam Hogan

Introduction

Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts.

This is Season 8, Bonus Episode 1, and today I’m sharing a few clips from the first-time homebuyer Q&A that I hosted with Sam Hogan on May 6, 2021. Sam is a mortgage originator with Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage) specializing in graduate students and PhDs, an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs, and my brother.

Sam has been on the podcast before in Season 2 Episode 5, Season 5 Episode 17, and Season 8 Episode 4. As Sam has gained experience working with PhD clients over the last few years, he’s been able to get mortgages approved in scenarios that didn’t seem possible a couple of years ago. We’re using this bonus episode to update you all on this evolving situation.

What you will hear next is me reading questions that were submitted over chat during the Q&A call and Sam’s answers. We selected these questions because they are among the most common that Sam receives. The first pair of questions is on whether having three years left on your fellowship offer is required to get a mortgage. The second pair of questions is on qualifying for a mortgage if you’re on an F-1 visa. There were a few dozen people on the call so you will hear some background noise as well.

If you would like to attend a Q&A call of this type, please sign up for the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/mortgage/. I’ll be in touch over email about the next scheduled call. As of now we anticipate holding another one in June 2021 and periodically after that.

If you would like to get in touch with Sam directly regarding your own mortgage, you can call or text him at (540) 478-5803 or email him at sam.hogan@movement.com.

Without further ado, here are the clips from the first-time homebuyer Q&A call with Sam Hogan.

Conclusion

Thank you, Sam, for giving your time and expertise to this call and thank you, participants, for your excellent questions! If you, listener, are interested in attending a Q&A call for first-time homebuyers in the near future, please go to PFforPhDs.com/mortgage/ and register for my mailing list. I’ll be in touch over email when we schedule the next call. If you would like to contact Sam directly regarding your own mortgage, you can call or text him at (540) 478-5803 or email him at sam.hogan@movement.com.

How Two PhDs Bought Their First Home in a HCOL Area in 2021

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In this episode, Emily recounts her and her husband’s home ownership journey, what she’s learned along the way about buying a home, and what she wishes they had done differently. The episode is structured around the necessary elements in your life and finances to qualify for a mortgage and purchase a home: 1) desire to buy a home, 2) income, 3) debt-to-income ratio, 4) credit score, 5) down payment and closing costs, and 6) someone willing to sell you a home. In each section, Emily speaks about the element generally and takes you through their own history to show you how all these elements finally came together in 2021 to enable the purchase of their first home.

This is post contains affiliate links. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!

Links Mentioned

Introduction

Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts.

This is Season 8, Episode 18, and today I’m going to recount for you my and my husband’s home ownership journey, what I’ve learned along the way about buying a home, and what I wish we had done differently. I have structured this episode around what I understand as the necessary elements in your life and finances to qualify for a mortgage and purchase a home: 1) desire to buy a home, 2) income, 3) debt-to-income ratio, 4) credit score, 5) down payment and closing costs, and 6) someone willing to sell you a home. In each section, I’ll tell you about the element generally and take you through our own history to show you how all these elements finally came together in 2021 to enable the purchase of our first home.

Purchasing a home in the San Diego area has been a decade-plus-long dream for us. My biggest long-term motivator for staying on top of my personal finances was not debt freedom, not financial independence or early retirement, not lifestyle spending, but rather being able to buy a home in southern California and live a financially stable life with children.

Whenever I met people who used to live in San Diego, I asked them why they moved away, and if the answer wasn’t being transferred by the military, it was nearly invariably financial pressures. I knew it would take all of my financial skills just to make it in this high cost of living area, so that’s what I’ve been working toward all these years.

My husband and I closed on our very first home purchase in north San Diego County in April 2021. So not only did we accomplish one of our major life goals, we did it in the strongest nationwide seller’s market in recent memory.

As I tell the story of our journey to home ownership, I’m going to get really personal and transparent, which I don’t often do on this podcast. I am going to give some advice and suggestions as we go through, but please keep in mind that this episode is largely descriptive of our path, not prescriptive for yours. You will see that we’ve had privileges and opportunities that are definitely not available to everyone. COVID-19 in particular greatly influenced the end of this process, which of course we all hope will not be repeated.

I know that my story, especially the end when I start giving you numbers, will feel quite unrelatable to those of you who are still in grad school or who live in low- or medium-cost-of-living areas in the US. They certainly were for me when I was a grad student in Durham. Yet, multiple years out from finishing my PhD, here I am living it. If eventually buying a home in a high cost of living area is something you want, I hope you will find our story inspirational. If your goal is to buy a home soon, I hope you will find it educational.

If this episode raises new questions for you about the home-buying process or you’ve had some kicking around for a while, I invite you to join me and Sam Hogan for a free live Q&A call this coming Thursday, May 6, 2021. Sam is a mortgage originator specializing in graduate students and PhDs, particularly those with fellowship income. He is also an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs and my brother. You can register for the call at PFforPhDs.com/mortgage/.

In case you are a new listener, here is some brief biographical info so you can follow along with the episode:

My husband Kyle and I met and started dating at Harvey Mudd College, from which we graduated in 2007 at the age of 21; we both turned 22 in July 2007. Kyle started his PhD in computational biology and bioinformatics at Duke University in fall 2007; I did a postbac fellowship at the NIH for a year before starting my PhD in biomedical engineering at Duke in fall 2008. We got married in summer 2010. We defended our PhDs in summer 2014. Kyle stayed on as a postdoc in his PhD advisor’s lab for another year, while I worked a few part-time / temporary jobs while I launched Personal Finance for PhDs, which has been my main endeavor since. In summer 2015, Kyle got a job at a biotech start-up, and we moved to Seattle. We have two children, born in 2016 and 2018. In summer 2020, Kyle negotiated to work remotely permanently for the start-up, and we moved to southern California, specifically the Los Angeles area. We closed on the purchase of our very first home in North San Diego County in April 2021.

The six necessary elements to buy a home are:

  1. Desire to buy a home
  2. Income
  3. Debt-to-income ratio
  4. Credit score
  5. Down payment and closing costs, and
  6. Someone willing to sell you a home

In the rest of the episode, I’ll tell you how we checked off each of these elements and give you some pointers as well. By the way, this episode is for entertainment purposes only, and nothing in it is advice for legal, tax, or financial purposes for any individual. You are entirely responsible for your own financial decisions.

1. Desire to buy a home

Before even dipping your toe into the home-buying process, you have to actually want to buy a home. It’s not something that you can or should just fall into. And if you don’t want to buy a home, none of the rest of the elements matter.

Kyle and I do not find the idea of home ownership to be particularly attractive. We have been very happy to rent for these last 14 years in the sense that we like that our landlords have had the financial and logistical responsibility to take care of the properties we’ve lived in. We’ve never cared about not being able to customize the space we’ve lived in or anything like that. However, we did idly consider home ownership in some earlier stages of our careers.

Neither of us was in a position to buy a home financially at the start of grad school. We did know some other grad students who owned their homes in Durham, so it was perhaps feasible to buy a small home with a grad student stipend. I actually interviewed Dr. Matt Hotze, a house hacking grad student at Duke, in Season 3 Episode 3. However, anecdotally, all the grad student homeowners we knew personally had purchased their homes before the subprime mortgage crisis, no later than 2007. Lending standards were obviously a lot looser before the crisis than during and after.

The subprime mortgage crisis and the Great Recession had a very big effect on my outlook on home ownership, as I believe they have for many Millennials. The first chapter of The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel (affiliate link—thanks for using!) discusses why individuals view money so differently from one another. The way he puts it is: “People do some crazy things with money. But no one is crazy… People from different generations, raised by different parents who earned different incomes and held different values, in different parts of the world, born into different economies, experiencing different job markets with different incentives and different degrees of luck, learn very different lessons.” His examples in the chapter of common financial experiences of various American generations include the Great Depression, high inflation in the 1970s, low inflation since the 1990s, the stock market’s high returns over the last 50 years, and the Great Recession.

Housel calls your teens and 20s “your young, impressionable years when you’re developing a base of knowledge about how the economy works.” Well, my early to mid 20s money mindset was scarred, as Housel puts it, by the housing crisis. By the time I reached my mid-20s, the mantras “Your home is not an investment” and “Don’t buy a home that you don’t plan to stay in for at least five years” had settled in deep.

Now, that five-year rule, that’s a tough one for early-career PhDs. Most of us expect to be fairly itinerant—moving cities, states, or countries for grad school, a postdoc, a first Real Job, a second, etc. You have to be really intentional as a PhD to stay in the same city for longer than 5 years, often making some kind of career sacrifice or concession to do so.

This is the dilemma that Kyle and I found ourselves in back in 2010. We had just gotten married and combined households and finances. The housing market was not strong by any means but it seemed that the worst was over. Our two grad student stipends were certainly enough to support a mortgage on a small home in Durham. We had a small amount of savings. Yet, Kyle was three years into his program and I was two years into mine. We thought, surely we will be leaving Durham by 2013, more or less. There wasn’t time, according to the 5-year rule, to have the reasonable expectation that we wouldn’t lose a bunch of money on buying and selling a home. So we didn’t buy. We focused our financial energy on retirement investing instead.

In hindsight, I learned the wrong lesson from the subprime mortgage crisis, or at least I applied a good lesson in the wrong way.

Here are a few things I’ve learned since 2010:

1) Personally, we didn’t actually move away from Durham until 2015. So we would have passed the 5-year rule anyway if we had bought shortly after getting married. The lesson there is: You might stay in your current city longer than you initially expect to. PhDs can take a long time. Keep a realistic timeline in mind in addition to an optimistic one.

2) If you own a home and then move away, you don’t have to sell it if your home hasn’t appreciated enough yet. You can rent it and become a long-distance landlord, likely with the help of a property management company. In 2012, we rented a townhouse from a private landlord through a property management company. The owner had earned her PhD at Duke and subsequently moved to Europe for a postdoc. Matt Hotze also employed this strategy when he moved away from Durham after finishing grad school.

As I record this, Scott Trench and Mindy Jensen of Bigger Pockets recently published a book titled First-Time Home Buyer: The Complete Playbook to Avoiding Rookie Mistakes (affiliate link—thanks for using!). I have not read the book yet, but I have listened to them go on the podcast rounds to promote it, and I’ve learned something just from that. One of the concepts in the book is on exit strategies from real estate purchases, namely: 1) live in it forever, 2) sell it, 3) rent it. When you buy a home, you should have more than one exit strategy that is a viable option for you.

What I want you to take from this point is that your home ownership clock does not need to stop when you move away from your current city. If it does take 5 years for your home’s rise in value to justify the transaction costs of real estate, which are very high, you don’t have to actually live in the home for all 5 years. Therefore, when you buy a home that you don’t plan on living in forever, whether that’s because of an anticipated move or growing your family or anything else, make sure that it makes financial sense as a rental as well as a primary residence.

3) Instead of relying on passive appreciation to increase your home’s value over a timeline like five years so that you can break even vs. renting, you can instead approach your primary residence with a real estate investor frame of mind. I’ve learned of two ways to do so through The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop (affiliate link—thanks for using!), though there may be more.

The first method is forced appreciation, which is when you upgrade your home while you’re living in it through renovations or an addition or something similar. I don’t know how accessible that method would be to the average PhD; it’s not something that I would feel competent or confident to undertake in a cost-effective manner.

The second method is house hacking. I’ve already mentioned that term once in this episode. House hacking is when you buy a home that’s bigger than you need and rent out part of it. This could be a single family home where your tenants are your roommates or a multi-family property where your tenants are your neighbors. Assuming the ability to buy a home in the first place, I think this strategy is quite accessible for especially graduate students, who are accustomed to roommate living. I have had multiple house hacker interviewees on the podcast, including Matt Hotze, Jonathan Sun in Season 2 Episode 5, and Dr. Caitlin Kirby in Season 6 Episode 16. House hacking is an incredibly powerful strategy, which if done right can either reduce your housing expense or even eliminate it entirely and give you an additional stream of income. I discuss this strategy in depth with Sam Hogan in Season 8 Episode 4.

The upshot is that I wish I could go back in time and tell my early grad student self that living in Durham for grad school was a wonderful and rare financial opportunity. I would tell myself that buying a home with an eye toward renting it out, whether through house hacking or long-distance landlording, greatly mitigates the risk of buying in a city you don’t plan to live in forever.

That pretty well summarizes my aversion to home ownership and what I wish I had known about home ownership in my grad school years. Since I am unable to communicate with my past self, I hope you find it valuable.
In 2015, Kyle and I moved from Durham to Seattle, and that was quite a shock to our financial system. Kyle’s income jumped, of course, but suddenly our cash savings seemed pretty paltry compared to our new living expenses. Buying a home was no longer on the table. Instead, we rented a cheap apartment that was walking distance to his new job and focused our energy on growing our careers and our family. I’ll tell you more about how those years went for us financially later on in the episode.

By the time we were ready to reconsider the home ownership question in about 2018, we looked around and saw that Seattle was experiencing double-digit growth in its median home price and had been for several years. We had numerous friends buying or trying to buy in a super competitive market, doing things like waiving inspection contingencies. That didn’t sound appealing. Plus, going back to the previous discussion, we didn’t want to be in Seattle forever. I told Kyle when we moved there that I wanted to move to southern California within two to four years, and it had already been three. Instead, we decided to focus on building up a down payment on a home in California.

That brings us to the present, more or less. Home ownership was not super desirable for us in the past based on our location and mindset, but now it is. We have two big reasons for wanting to be homeowners at this stage in our life: 1) As a financially-minded person, I love the idea of, as Ric Edelmen puts it, carrying a big long mortgage. Doubly so with interest rates being as low as they are. 2) We, ideally, want to provide our children with a geographically stable home throughout their school years, which both of our sets of parents did for us. Our older child is entering kindergarten in fall 2021, so we knew we wanted to buy in 2021 if not sooner.

What I want you to take away from this section regarding whether or not you desire to become a homeowner is that you not should go on your feelings only. Your feelings matter, but purchasing a home or not purchasing a home is a big decision that should be well thought through. What are your motivations for home ownership? What are your exit strategies if you decide to buy? How can you use your home to increase your net worth, aside from passive appreciation? What are your other financial goals, and how do they rank against home ownership?

2. Income

Your income as an individual or household is one of the factors that determines the upper limit of the purchase price of your home. Income is the main sticking point keeping graduate students and postdocs from being able to buy in cities that their age-mates with Real Jobs could buy in, and that is due to the relatively low amount of income and sometimes the type of income.

First, I’ll address the type of income.

Employee or W-2 income is the easiest income type for lenders to understand and process. Basically, if you are an employee, the lender presumes that your job will continue indefinitely and that you will be able to pay your mortgage. You could potentially get a mortgage with just a single pay stub or an offer letter. Once the mortgage is close to being issued, they do check with your employer to verify that you’re not about to be let go or something similar.

Kyle has W-2 income through his job, so we knew that would be an easy sell.

Self-employment income is also common for lenders to work with, but they ask for at least two years of tax returns and profit and loss statements to ascertain whether the income is stable. Also, self-employment income will not qualify you for as large of a mortgage as an equivalent amount of W-2 income would.

I’m self-employed, and I was really concerned about how a lender would view my income. I wanted to wait to apply for a mortgage until after we filed our 2020 tax return because my income was higher in 2020 than 2018 so I thought that would help us qualify for a larger mortgage.

Fellowship income is the last income type that is common for grad students and postdocs. I hear frequently from grad students and postdocs who have been denied mortgages because the lender either doesn’t understand or can’t work with fellowship or training grant income. We’ve discussed qualifying for a mortgage with fellowship income in depth on the podcast in Season 2 Episode 5 and Season 5 Episode 17. Lenders view fellowship income as temporary, not indefinite like employee income, so they are concerned that you won’t be able to pay the mortgage after the fellowship ends. I know this sounds backwards to us because fellowship income is guaranteed over its term as long as you remain in good standing, whereas most employees can be fired at any time. However, it is possible to qualify for a mortgage with fellowship income under certain conditions and if you use a lender who is accustomed to working with it. Anyway, if after listening to the aforementioned episodes you still have some questions about whether you could get a mortgage with your particular funding situation, please come to the Q&A call on May 6th with Sam Hogan, who again is a mortgage originator specializing in fellowship income. You can register for the Q&A call at PFforPhDs.com/mortgage/.

Second, I’ll address the amount of income.

You may have heard a rule of thumb that you shouldn’t buy a home for more than three times your annual income. I learned through my own home-buying process that 3x your income is an outdated rule of thumb. Because interest rates are so low right now, people without other debt might be able to qualify for mortgages around 5x or more of their income.

The real metric that lenders go on is your debt-to-income ratio. There are actually two debt-to-income ratios, the front-end and the back-end. I’m going to address the back end debt-to-income ratio as a separate element.

Your front-end debt-to-income ratio is your total monthly housing expense divided by your gross monthly income. Your monthly housing expense includes the principal and interest payment on your mortgage, property tax, homeowner’s insurance, private mortgage insurance, and/or homeowner’s association dues. Lenders usually want your housing expense to be no more than 28% of your gross income, although depending on your loan type and credit history, some lenders might go above that number  .

Basically, this front-end debt-to-income ratio is a major factor in calculating the maximum mortgage amount you will be extended. However, what I’ve learned through my own home-buying process and my conversations with Sam is that the amount you’ll qualify for is a bit of a black box. If you want a definitive number, you’ll need to work with a mortgage broker or originator on getting pre-qualified or pre-approved.

Regarding our own homebuying journey, obviously real estate in the San Diego area is very expensive. We had to decide how much we were comfortable spending on a mortgage, regardless of the amount we qualified for, and match that up against the prices of single-family homes. There are a lot of cities and areas in San Diego County that we absolutely could not and would not buy in, and even in the remaining areas we were only looking at pretty modest homes.

When we started homing in on our target range of home prices, Kyle’s income was borderline enough to qualify for that range on its own without including mine. We were really, really fortunate when, just after we made our first offer on a house, Kyle received an unexpected and substantial raise. His income with that raise was more than enough to cover our target range. Ultimately, we went forward with his name only on our mortgage since we didn’t need to use my more complicated self-employment income.

3. Debt-to-Income Ratio

In this section, we’ll discuss the back-end debt-to-income ratio, which many people refer to as simply the debt-to-income ratio. Your back-end debt-to-income ratio is your total monthly debt payments and certain other obligations divided by your gross monthly income. The numerator is inclusive of your proposed housing expense that we delineated when discussing the front-end debt-to-income ratio.

Aside from your housing expense, the other debts and obligations included in the back-end debt-to-income ratio are the minimum payments you are required to make on credit cards, car loans, medical debt, personal loans, and child support. If your student loans are in repayment, those minimum payments go into the calculation as well. If your student loans are in deferment, your lender may consider 1% of the outstanding student loan balance as a stand-in for the monthly payment.

The maximum back-end debt-to-income ratio permitted by lenders varies widely from about 36% to sometimes over 50%, depending on the type of mortgage and the rest of your financial profile. Again, it’s a bit of a black box, so if you think your back-end debt-to-income ratio is what will limit your ability to get a mortgage of the size that you want, speak with a mortgage originator like Sam Hogan.

Kyle and I have been essentially debt-free for many years, so in our case the front-end debt-to-income ratio equals the back-end debt-to-income ratio. I bought a car at the start of grad school with a personal bank loan, but I paid that off during grad school and have since sold the car. We own one car currently, and it’s Kyle’s college car. It’s a 2003 Chevy so pretty unglamorous, but that is literally how we roll. I had student loans from undergrad that we paid off a couple of years after we finished grad school. We use credit cards, but we pay them off every month. I think we may have financed a cell phone or two at 0% instead of parting with cash, but we’re done with those payments now as well. Kyle has essentially never been in debt aside from the kind that builds your credit without costing you any money, and I haven’t taken out any new debt since I was 23.

4. Credit score

Your FICO credit score and the three major credit reports it is based on are the major ways that your lender will determine how credit-worthy you are. Basically, your credit reports and score communicate how responsible you have been with debt in the past.

If you’ve never had any kind of debt, you don’t have a credit score, and then lenders, if they even want to work with you, have to do a lot more legwork, or what’s referred to as manual underwriting, to figure out if you’re credit-worthy. That’s pretty ironic because if you’ve never taken out any debt and always paid your bills on time, you’re probably very responsible with money.

On the other hand, if you have lots of outstanding debt, that’s going to hurt your credit score.

The middle ground with debt is optimal for cultivating a high credit score, which is taking out small amounts of debt and proving that you can pay it back consistently. As your age of credit grows older, your score improves as well because that track record of on-time, in-full payments gets longer.

Exactly how a FICO credit score is calculated is proprietary, but the broad strokes are that 35% is based on your payment history, 30% is your amounts owed, 15% is the length of your credit history, 10% is your credit mix, and 10% is new credit inquiries.

Lenders use your FICO score and credit reports to determine if they’ll lend to you at all, which type of mortgage to use, and what interest rate to offer you.

If your credit score is 760 or higher, you should qualify for the best interest rates on a mortgage. The minimum credit score to get a mortgage is around 620.

While Kyle and I have never tried to hack our credit scores, you can probably tell from what I told you in the previous section that they are very good by now. I started taking out student loans at age 18 and got my first credit card at 22, so my credit history is quite long in the tooth. Kyle’s parents actually added him to one of their credit cards as an authorized user when he was a teenager, so that gave his credit score a big boost right out of the gate. Of course being debt-free at this stage while still using credit cards raises our scores quite a lot. We also haven’t applied for any new credit cards since the pandemic started, so there were no recent hard pulls on our credit reports when we applied for our mortgage. I don’t actually monitor my credit score, but Kyle keeps tabs on his through Credit Karma, and it’s been consistently over 800 for several years.

5. Down payment and closing costs

Saving up money for a down payment on a house and the closing costs on the purchase was the biggest, longest, and most intentional process we went through in preparing to buy a home. I will tell you all about it in detail after going over what this money is for and how much you should target.

First, the down payment.

The minimum down payment on a home depends on the type of mortgage you’re taking out. A conventional mortgage can require as little as 3% down, though 5% is more common as the minimum. A Federal Housing Administration or FHA loan requires 3.5% down. United States Department of Agriculture or USDA and US Department of Veteran’s Affairs or VA loans don’t have a down payment requirement.

You may be familiar with the recommendation to, if possible, put 20% down on a home. If you put down 20% on a conventional or FHA loan, you’ll avoid paying private mortgage insurance, which is an insurance premium you pay to insure your lender against the possibility of you defaulting on the loan.

The more you put down, of course, the smaller your mortgage will be. A larger down payment amount can also potentially lower the interest rate on your mortgage and make you a more competitive buyer in a seller’s market, as we have in 2021.

Second, the closing costs.

Going into the home-buying process, I had heard that sellers typically pay closing costs, but that’s not a hard-and-fast rule and it’s not all closing costs. While in a typical transaction sellers pay roughly 5 to 8% of the purchase price in closing costs, buyers pay roughly 3 to 5%. So if you were targeting a down payment size of 3 to 5%, you may want to double your savings goal to account for closing costs.

I’ll give you a history of our down payment savings over the years. But first, I want to share a memory that I have from 2012. Kyle and I were at our five-year college reunion and chatting with a friend who lived in southern California. This friend shared that she and her husband wanted to buy a home and that they were working on saving up a $100,000 down payment. A ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLAR DOWN PAYMENT. That to me was a completely unrelatable goal. She may as well have said a trillion dollars. It was totally unattainable in my world. Now, to be fair, my friend and her husband were both engineer types and I’m sure had very good salaries. And of course real estate is very expensive where they live. One hundred thousand dollars may have been a 20% down payment, or maybe not. But since I was a grad student living in Durham at the time, my mind absolutely boggled at that number.

The irony is that, nine years later, Kyle and I put down well over $100,000 on our house purchase. And I will tell you how we got there. Before I do, please recall from the beginning of the episode that I am acutely aware of the privilege that you will soon see at play in this process and that I am simply telling you what happened for us, not suggesting that you will or could take the same path.

Kyle and I opened a savings account that we nicknamed “House Down Payment” in 2014, the year that we defended. Our main financial priority prior to that point was retirement investing. By the end of grad school, we had eked our retirement savings rate up to about 17% of our gross income. We were also quite focused on budgeting and saving for irregular expenses; I shared our system for managing those in Season 7 Episode 15. Just before Kyle defended, our combined net worth had crossed $100,000, which I talk about in depth in Season 1 Episode 1.

That summer, as a defense gift, one of our sets of parents gave us $14,000. That was an incredible amount of money to us—about a quarter of our yearly household income—and completely unexpected. We decided to sequester it in the aforementioned House Down Payment account so that we wouldn’t be tempted to use it for everyday living expenses. Then, in summer 2015, that same set of parents gave us another $14,000 as a graduation gift. That also went straight into the savings account. So by the time we moved to Seattle, we had quite a nice nest egg earmarked for a future house purchase.

Once Kyle started his job at the Seattle biotech company in 2015, we reevaluated our financial goals. We increased our retirement savings rate to 20% of our gross income and have maintained it there since. The house down payment became our secondary saving goal. We figured we could move it to primary savings goal status when we had a firm timeline on buying by decreasing our retirement savings rate to perhaps 10% for a year or two. I’ll also note that we didn’t have a firm target amount of money for the down payment. We thought it would be good to have at least a 10% down payment, though 20% was likely out of reach, but of course we didn’t know yet how expensive of a house we would purchase.

I’ll give you snapshots of how the balance in that account grew or didn’t grow over the next five years.

In 2015, we consolidated some other savings we had into the account, but didn’t actively work on adding any more money to it. We got pregnant with our first child that fall, so we were instead beefing up our emergency fund and saving cash to supplement our income during Kyle’s parental leave. The balance in the account at the end of 2015 was $29k.

In 2016, after the birth of our first child, we committed to contributing a certain percentage of my irregular at that time income to the account, which amounted to tens of or a couple of hundred dollars per month. The balance in the account at the end of 2016 was $31k.

We continued that savings plan into 2017, and I even started paying myself a regular salary from the business. When we got pregnant with our second child that fall, we switched our savings goal as we did for our first pregnancy and temporarily stopped contributing to the account. The balance in the account at the end of 2017 was $40k.

In 2018, our insurance changed halfway through our second pregnancy. We were responsible for more medical bills associated with the birth of our second child than we had with our first, plus we supplemented our income during Kyle’s parental leave again. We returned to our savings plan after the birth of our second child, but then decided to pull money back out of the account for some of the medical bills and other irregular expenses. The balance in the account at the end of 2018 was $39k.

Through 2019, we continued to save a certain percentage of my income into the account, and we layered in an additional fixed $250 per month. Again, around tax time we contributed to the account a portion of a distribution from my business and our self-tax refund, which amounted to approximately $10,000. (Sidebar: We save a generous amount from each of my paychecks into a separate savings account earmarked for income and self-employment tax. We pay quarterly estimated tax and also more along with our tax return. Our self-tax refund is whatever is left over in our savings account after all the taxes are paid, which we then incorporate into the rest of our finances.) The balance in the account at the end of 2019 was $56k.

2020, as you all know, started out normally. We again were saving a couple of hundred dollars each month, plus a bolus around tax time. Then, the pandemic hit. We stopped paying for childcare, which was certainly a strain on our time and stress levels, but did allow us to increase our monthly savings rate to the down payment fund to $1,500. We also put most of the first stimulus check into the account.

I’m sure everyone has struggled during the pandemic in at least one facet of life. Our primary struggle was as the working parents of very small children. Both of our children’s preschools and our babysitting service closed. We had no nearby family, and all our nearby friends were dealing with their own small children. I’m sure you’ve heard that “it takes a village” to raise children. Well, the village was gone—or only on Zoom, at any rate. We definitely had it easier than many because of the flexibility in my schedule, but that only goes so far.

By the summer, when we acknowledged this was not just a flash in the pan, we realized that nothing was actually keeping us in Seattle. Kyle negotiated for permanent remote work with his employer, and we started preparing to move to southern California. Our Plan A was to rent a single family house in one of the cities in San Diego County that we were considering buying in so that we could get to know the area. As our desired move date grew closer, we were having some difficulty arranging for a rental at a distance, and we decided to exercise Plan B, which was to move in with Kyle’s parents in the Los Angeles area. They had extended us an open-ended invitation to stay with them.

That’s how, in August 2020, we moved back in with our parents, kids in tow. And even though it wasn’t what we thought we wanted, it was exactly what we needed. I’ve been calling these last eight months a time of respite. We were so tired and so stressed. Moving in with Kyle’s parents has benefited us in so many dimensions. They have provided part-time childcare throughout this period, which relieved so much of the time pressure we were experiencing. Kyle and I could leave the house together without the kids, which was incredible, especially once we started house hunting in earnest. Our kids had two more people they got to interact with on a daily basis.

On the financial side, Kyle’s parents refused any payment for living expenses, not rent, not utilities. Our only financial contribution to the household was to take over the majority of the grocery spending. Therefore, starting in September 2020, we increased our monthly savings rate into our down payment savings account to $4-5k. The balance in the account at the end of 2020 was $115k.

That saving rate continued at the start of 2021. We also put the second and third rounds of stimulus that we received into the account. When our respective sets of parents saw that we actually started house hunting, they also gave us a combined total of $86k. That a lot lot lot of money. We were not expecting or counting on those gifts at all. We are obviously really grateful to our parents for passing those on to us. The addition of those gifts put us well over the 20% down payment plus closing costs target, and we even have enough left over to do some needed repairs and upgrades to the property we bought. We’ll get into that momentarily.

Before we move on from this section, I want to point out some advice or observations:

1) I think it was psychologically important to us that we had a named savings account open for our down payment. Having a certain place to house money for any particular goal keeps it front of mind and prevents you from mixing money intended for that goal with your other money.

2) It was a good step to have a set savings rate going into that account on a monthly basis, when we did, and also to know that we would put any financial windfalls, like our self-tax refund, into that account.

3) Living rent-free with family members is an very, powerful financial move if it’s agreeable among all parties. We wouldn’t have done it if not for the pandemic, but I’m really grateful that we had the opportunity.

4) If you suspect your family might be planning to gift you money for your down payment, I suggest trying to find a way to get that conversation started earlier rather than later. You can tell from our tally that over half of our down payment fund was sourced from gifts, most of which we didn’t know about until the eleventh hour. We could have done more optimal financial planning if we had known they were going to arrive. Then again, it does feel good that we had some skin in the game.

5) Speaking of optimal financial planning, I’m not thrilled that we had cash sitting around since 2014 waiting for us to buy a house when in hindsight it could have been invested. Throughout this whole period, we sort of continually thought that buying a home was about two years off. For a two-year time horizon, cash makes the most sense. But that two years was actually up to seven years in our case. I am glad that we maintained our 20% retirement savings rate, because at least that money benefitted from the incredible market returns in recent years.

So my suggestion is to not skimp out on your retirement savings unless you have a really firm timeline on when you’ll buy. You might even invest part of your down payment fund if you are confident that you have time to weather any market downturns. We knew that we would be able to remove our contributions to our Roth IRAs and even some of the earnings if we really wanted to use them for a home purchase, so that helped us feel comfortable with a relatively high retirement savings rate.

You can see why I said at the beginning that this is a descriptive rather than prescriptive tale, right? Generating down payment money by receiving gifts from family, putting away thousands of dollars sent by the federal government for aid, moving in with your parents, and forgoing childcare is not exactly replicable.

6) Someone Willing to Sell You a Home

This last section is the story of how we bought a house in 2021, the strongest nationwide seller’s market in recent memory.

Once we moved to CA in August 2020, we saved a few searches on real estate websites that pull from the Multiple Listings Service and started passively figuring out in what areas of North San Diego County we could buy a single family home in our price range. We narrowed down our search to about 5 cities/areas. We also compiled a short list of must-have and nice-to-have features of our future home and property. That fall, we worked on making sure that the financial items I talked about earlier in the episode were all in order.

I read Home Buying for Dummies that fall to put together a game plan for getting a real estate agent and lender and so forth. Because at that time we thought we might need my income to qualify for a mortgage of the size we wanted, we agreed to file our 2020 tax return ASAP in January 2021 so that we could give that to our lender. In December and January, we also started contacting local real estate agents with the plan to interview several before choosing one.

That plan went completely out the window when we saw a property pop up in our search in mid-January. By that time, we were primarily using Redfin because we liked its search functionality best. So we saw this property come up in our search that met everything on our list and was well below the maximum of our price range. During the pandemic in California, there are no open houses, and you need a real estate agent to book a private appointment to see anything. We didn’t have an agent yet. Redfin, however, anticipates this exact situation, and so has a feature where you can request to see any property and you’ll be assigned a Redfin agent to go with you. So we did that. We also got a quick prequalification letter from the mortgage arm of our bank, Ally, for the amount we would need.

I’ll spare you the blow-by-blow, but we did end up putting in an offer on that house. The home’s list price was $675,000. Our offer was for $726,000. It sold for $746,000.

It’s very, very involved to decide whether you want to buy a particular house and put together an offer, especially a first offer, so we were working closely with the Redfin agent through that process. Ultimately, we decided that we liked working with her and she was doing a good job, and that’s how she became our agent. So that aspect of Redfin’s business model totally worked on us.

I want to take a small sidebar here about Redfin and why we liked working with one of their agents. Since we didn’t work with any agents outside of Redfin, these perks may exist elsewhere, too, so I’m not saying they are exclusive. 1) Redfin’s search engine is really nice to work with, definitely our favorite, and their app is good, too. 2) It’s seamless to view a property on the website or app and communicate with either your co-buyer or your agent. 3) Redfin takes a smaller-than-standard commission on the buy side, and the difference is refunded to the buyer at closing. 4) Our Redfin agent was on salary, so she got paid whether we bought a particular house or not. We didn’t like the commission-based compensation model of traditional real estate agents because it misaligns the incentives of the agent and buyer, so we felt much more comfortable with Redfin’s salary model. 5) If our agent was ever unavailable to tour a home with us, Redfin assigned another agent to sub in. So we never missed out on seeing a home because of our agent’s schedule.

So our first offer wasn’t accepted. But what we learned from that offer is the power of the appraisal contingency waiver in this market.

There are several contingencies in place in a standard home purchase offer that are in effect once the offer has been accepted and the house goes under contract. A contingency is a way for the buyer to back out of the deal if the contingency is not fulfilled. If you’ve talked with people going through the home-buying process before, you’ve probably heard about the inspection contingency. Once you go under contract on a house, there will be an inspection that will probably turn up a bunch of things wrong with the house. This is a chance for renegotiation, such as asking the seller to make certain repairs or give the buyer money at closing to make the repairs. If that negotiation does not go the way the buyer wants it to, the buyer can exercise the inspection contingency and get out of the contract without penalty, or even do so without negotiating. There are numerous contingencies that are standard for a contract, including the inspection, financing, and appraisal.

So that’s how contingencies work once you’re under contract. When you make an offer, in a strong seller’s market it’s common to waive as many of the contingencies as the buyer is able to and comfortable with. In our case, we could not waive the financing contingency because we were using a mortgage to buy the home. We would not waive the inspection contingency, and the market wasn’t quite strong enough to make that a common tactic. One of the reasons we lost out on that first offer was that we did not waive the appraisal contingency, whereas the winning offer did.

So what is the appraisal contingency? The buyer and seller agree on a price for the home, and during the contract period the home is appraised, which means that it is assessed by a professional and assigned a value that it could be sold for. In a not super hot market, this value is typically at or above the agreed-upon sales price, and everyone is happy. In a rapidly rising market, like we’ve seen this year, it’s typical for the agreed-upon sales price to be above the appraisal. That becomes a problem if you’re using financing, because the bank will usually not lend you more than its assigned fraction of the appraisal value.

To use round numbers, let’s say that you go under contract on a home for $220,000. You were planning to put down 20%, which is $44,000. But the appraisal comes back at $200,000. Your lender is going to say, nope, we are going to lend you 80% of $200,000, which is $160,000, not 80% of $220,000. Your choices at that point are to 1) get another appraisal that you hope comes back higher, 2) bring to the table $60,000 in cash to make up for the appraisal shortfall, 3) decide to redistribute your cash to fully cover the appraisal shortfall and instead put down less than 20%, or 4) exercise your appraisal contingency to get out of the contract if the seller doesn’t renegotiate the purchase price.

Now, it is apparently possible in some cases for the lender to give the buyer the go-ahead to waive the appraisal contingency with the agreement that the lender will still put up their agreed-upon percentage of the sale price, no matter how high the price goes. Our lender did not agree to that.

In our experience in the San Diego housing market in 2021, appraisal waivers are commonly used, and when multiple offers are in play, it’s likely that the seller will pick one that has this particular waiver. We didn’t use an appraisal waiver in that first offer, but we did in our second and third offers.

Speaking as a layperson and first-time homebuyer, waiving the appraisal contingency really scared me. Not only am I coming to the table with my 20% down payment plus closing costs, but now I have to potentially bring even more cash to the table just to make the deal go through, and that cash is above and beyond what an unbiased professional thinks the home is worth. And there’s no real upper limit to how much cash you could be asked to bring because you won’t know for sure what the house appraises for until you’re under contract. Suddenly the cash that we had saved and been given that far exceeded our projected 20% down payment seemed like it might not be enough.

Our agent and lender reassured me that even if we waived the appraisal contingency, we could still get out of any contract that we go into on the financing contingency. Apparently they are somewhat redundant. If the appraisal comes in lower than we expected and we didn’t want the house any longer, we could ask our lender to say they won’t lend to us the needed amount and use the financing contingency to cancel the deal. Of course, nobody wants a deal to be canceled in this way, so Kyle and I had to decide for each of our subsequent offers where we used an appraisal contingency waiver how much of an appraisal shortfall we were willing to make up with cash and consequently how low the appraisal would have to come in for us to exercise the financing contingency.

The second house we put in an offer on was listed at $769,000. Our offer, assuming the escalation clause was exercised, was for $860,000. That house received 21 offers, and the seller’s agent counted with 7 of the them, including us. He asked for certain changes to everyone’s contracts and to submit our highest and best offer, no more escalation clauses. We stuck with $860,000. The house sold for $861,000. It turns out that the winning buyer agreed to “beat any other offer,” and retained a tacit escalation clause following the counterofferr. That one was a heartbreaker.

The third house we put in an offer on was listed at $675,000. Our offer was for $746,000 with an escalation clause up to $756,000. The winning offer was all cash for $730,000.

At that point, we were totally emotionally exhausted. We had toured 13 homes and made 3 offers. Each one was completely wrenching for us. Quick decision making is not our strong suit, but it is necessary in a fast-moving market. Typically homes would be listed between Tuesday and Friday. We would tour them on Saturday, usually, and then have to submit an offer by Sunday or Monday. Each tour day involved at least 90 minutes of driving each way between LA and SD plus more driving to each of the homes. Every week and weekend were consumed with this process, and we were getting tired.

Remember that list of must-haves and nice-to-haves from before we started the search process? It had about tripled in length by that point. Touring houses and making decisions about whether or not to make offers really helped us clarify what we were looking for. We were able to become much more specific about our search parameters and could better decide based on a listing whether it was worth it to tour a home. We had also increased the top end of our price range by about $150,000.

On our last weekend of touring, we saw six houses on Saturday! Even though we had gotten a lot more specific about what we wanted, those six all made the cut. We noticed while we were out that there were way fewer buyers around than there had been on other weekends. Usually, we would show up for a 15- or 30-minute appointment and there would be someone finishing up their appointment just as ours was starting or would be waiting for ours to finish, often both. Sometimes, houses would be 100% booked for showings. However, that weekend, we had several appointments where no one was seeing the house immediately before or after us. It was a very noticeable aberration.

That was a very long day and very long weekend. After seeing the six homes, we only immediately ruled out one, so we debated putting in an offer on any of the other five. We slowly whittled down the list until we had just one remaining, but we simply didn’t feel strongly enough about it to put in an offer. We were very disappointed that we weren’t seizing our opportunity to make an offer on the low-volume weekend, but we just couldn’t do it by the end of the day on Sunday.

All day on Monday, we wondered if we had made a mistake by not making an offer on that last-to-be-ruled-out house in particular. On Tuesday, when the houses that went under contract over the weekend change their status to ‘pending,’ we saw that house’s status changed to ‘back on the market.’ We immediately contacted our agent, who told us that she had spoken with the listing agent and that the house had not received any offers. We knew this was our second chance and we moved fast. We put in an offer for below list price that day. We didn’t waive any contingencies because we knew we we weren’t competing with any other buyers. The sellers countered for asking price, and we went under contract for $700,000.

Kyle and I have speculated about why we got this house for asking price, which the house also appraised for, when virtually all the other ones we were interested sold for so far above asking and appraisal. I know we got lucky, but maybe our luck could be strategy for someone else. The following are some pieces of maybe advice for a hot market.

1) We stayed in and kept pounding the pavement. Even though we were tired, we didn’t take a break, we just refined our process.

2) Because we were out there just about every weekend, we recognized that weird low-volume weekend as an outlier and our chance to win a bid with less competition than usual.

3) We overlooked our house’s poor showing. I honestly think the listing agent made a major strategic blunder by listing when she did, which we benefitted from. The house was renter-occupied when it was listed, which meant 1) it was only shown for four hours total that weekend and 2) the house was not empty or staged, but rather cluttered with the renters’ possessions. The garage and living room were all but inaccessible due to the volume of stuff crammed into them. The windows were covered with a thick tinting film, so the house appeared very dark. It had a strong smell from the renters’ cooking. Finally, there was a necessary and obvious repair that had been neglected by the owner. The house apparently did not make a good first impression on the limited number of people who were able to see it that weekend, which resulted in there being no offers until we changed our minds. If the agent had waited to list until the renters had moved out, which they did a couple of weeks later, I think the sellers would have had a completely different result. On our end, none of the items that I just listed were the reasons we initially passed on the house. We really were able to overlook those cosmetic issues and focus on the fundamental attributes of the house.

The next month, between going under contract and closing on the house, is not something I hear people talk about as much as the first stage. It’s not as thrilling as house hunting, but a lot more work get done. I definitely developed a new appreciation for our agent. There is a lot of communication, negotiation, and paperwork, and we were really glad to have a professional guiding the process as well as support from numerous other professionals. On our side, we almost pulled out of the deal like three more times as new information came to light, but we ultimately decided to stick with it, and we now officially own that house.

My advice for you on finding someone willing to sell you a house is:

1) Start early figuring out where you want to live. Research your market thoroughly months or years in advance of when you actually want to start house hunting. You can do this through tracking prices, visiting the various target areas, and talking with people who live there. Ideally, you would actually live there for a while before buying. We wish we had been able to do this.

2) In non-pandemic times, I suggest going to a lot of open houses. I think we would have really benefitted from a period of casually seeing houses in person to expand and refine our list of must-haves and nice-to-haves. For example, a big difference for us between simply visiting someone’s home and evaluating whether or not we wanted to buy it is that in the latter case we brought a range finder to measure distances and calculate square footages. We developed opinions on how large a bedroom or a dining area or a backyard should be for our home that we didn’t have prior to starting house hunting.

3) Interview real estate agents. I am happy with the agent we worked with, but I’m not happy about how we sort of defaulted into working with her. And do consider Redfin. We had a great experience with the company.

4) Shop around for a loan, again well in advance of when you make your first offer. On our agent’s suggestion, we worked with a local mortgage broker, which was a great experience. But we also got our own quotes from several lenders and even one other broker to make sure we were getting the best rate. A piece of advice I got from Sam Hogan was to ask each potential lender for the official loan estimate. Quotes can take on any format, so a potential lender might be able to make theirs look more attractive by omitting or shifting around some of their fees. Loan estimates have a consistent formatting across the industry, so it’s actually possible to compare them directly.

5) Once you’re ready to submit offers, as I said earlier, pound the pavement consistently because you never know when conditions will align for you to get an offer accepted, like in our case.

6) Trust your agent, or rather find an agent that you can trust. Our agent was not super directive in telling us how much we should bid on a particular house, but she did provide us with information and market insights and to help us make the decisions. She helped us respond to shifting market conditions, like starting to use the appraisal contingency waiver.

Conclusion

We’ve come to the end of the episode! I hope this gave you some insight into what it takes to buy a home, particularly in a HCOL area in a strong seller’s market. Please know, however, that it is often possible to buy a home without all of the advantages that we had. Our financial profile is quite strong at this point because of our age, post-PhD incomes, and the gifts we received, but if you don’t have those things going for you, you may still be able to buy a home. Of course, that depends a whole lot on where you’re trying to buy. In fact, buying a home at an early age could put you in an even stronger financial position by your mid-30s than we are in, especially if you house hack or force appreciation in your home.

Best of luck to you in your home-buying journey! Sam Hogan and I will be answering any question you have about being a first-time homebuyer as a grad student or PhD this coming Thursday, May 6, 2021. Register for the call at PFforPhDs.com/mortgage/. Please join us!

Turn Your Largest Liability into Your Largest Asset with House Hacking

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In this episode, Emily and her guest, Sam Hogan, explain how house hacking can benefit graduate students and early-career PhDs. House hacking is when you purchase a property, live in it, and rent out part of it. While not possible in every housing market, house hacking is within reach for many graduate students and certainly postdocs and PhD with Real Jobs. In the first part of the episode, Emily teaches some of the most salient concepts from The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop. She also presents some real numbers from potential house hacks in college towns. In the second part of the episode, Emily interviews Sam Hogan, a senior loan officer at Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage) who specializes in writing mortgages for graduate students and PhDs, especially those with fellowship income. Sam gives additional details about how an early-career PhD can qualify for a mortgage for a house hack.

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Links Mentioned in This Episode

grad student house hack

Teaser

00:00 Sam: The best example, which has happened I would say many times over, is in North Carolina. One student purchasing that, you know, the regular stipend amount of around $32,000 a year, he bought it at $200,000, put $10,000 down was still within his debt-income ratio. And when he started off the process, he did say he was going to house hack.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 8, Episode 4, and I have a different episode structure for you today. The entire episode is devoted to exploring house hacking, which is when you purchase a property, live in it, and rent out part of it. We’re going to focus on how house hacking can benefit graduate students and early-career PhDs, and how it is possible for more people than you might expect. In the first part of the episode, I teach some of the most salient concepts from The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop. I also point to a few real examples of potential profitable house hacks that I looked up this week. In the second part of the episode, I interview Sam Hogan, a senior loan officer at Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage) who specializes in writing mortgages for graduate students and PhDs, especially those with fellowship income.

01:26 Emily: Sam gives additional details about how an early-career PhD can qualify for a mortgage for a house hack. Sam has been featured on two previous episodes and is now an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs. Reading this book came at a great time for me, actually, as my husband and I are taking steps to buy our first home within the next few months. It’s given me a different perspective on real estate investing for sure and the value of your primary residence. I’m very excited to share this material with you. Our giveaway contest is actually for the book Sam and I read for this episode! In January 2021, I’m giving away one copy of The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop (affiliate link—thanks for using!), which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community Book Club selection for March 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during January will have a chance to win a copy of this book.

02:18 Emily: If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate AND REVIEW this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at emily at PFforPhDs dot com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of January from all the entries. You can find full instructions at PFforPhDs.com/podcast. The podcast received a review this week from Emily B. The review reads: “This podcast has been so helpful to me as I apply to graduate school!! So many of these things aren’t talked about but Emily is great at explaining all of these concepts and interviewing people who have great advice.” Thank you to Emily B for this lovely review, and best of luck to you this spring! Without further ado, here’s my review of the concepts in The House Hacking Strategy.

Review of The House Hacking Strategy

03:08 Emily: The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop (affiliate link—thanks for using) was published in 2019 through Bigger Pockets Publishing. Bigger Pockets is a popular online real estate investment community. House hacking, which I’ll define momentarily, is popular among this community, and Curelop presents a very enthusiastic and rosy picture of the strategy. For the duration of this episode, I want you to allow yourself to dream a little. I know and you know that house hacking is not possible or desirable for many graduate students and PhDs for a variety of reasons. But just for the next few minutes, I want you to suspend your doubts. We’ll come back to reality in a little bit and talk over some numbers. For the moment, instead of confirming for yourself all the reasons that you can’t house hack, ask yourself, “How and when might I be able to make this strategy work for me?” If you are convinced that you want to house hack, you may just find that a fire is lit underneath you and you can make it happen sooner than later.

04:07 Emily: In fact, I did some searching on Redfin and Craigslist and found three properties near three R1 universities that I think might be profitable house hacks for single graduate students. I’ll present those numbers after I go through some of the material from The House Hacking Strategy. I’m going to start my teaching in the same place that Curelop starts his book. I’ll read some quotes and summarize some paragraphs from pages 23 and 24, the start of Chapter 1. Quote “What is your largest expense? The majority of the United States population would not hesitate to reply with “housing.” Whether you are paying rent or paying down a mortgage alongside with taxes, insurance, maintenance, and all the other expenses associated with owning a home, your house is likely what you spend most of your money on each month.” End quote.

Definitions: Asset and Liability

04:54 Emily: Curelop then shares the definitions that Robert Kiyosaki uses in his books, which is that an asset is anything that puts money into your pocket every month, and a liability is anything that takes money from you every month. Under this definition, your home is a liability, whether you own or rent. Quote “Arguably, the biggest misconception that most Americans have is that their home is their largest asset. When, in fact, it is their largest liability. However, there are some exceptions. A few of them are exemplified at the conclusion of each chapter. You will read fellow house hackers’ stories in this book who have used strategies outlined here to turn what could be their largest liability into their largest asset. “They strategically designed their lifestyle so housing is not their largest expense. As a matter of fact, through the strategies I talk about in this book, they have completely eliminated housing as an expense and they make money from their living situations every single month. And yes, their lives look just like yours. From the outside, you would not think that they are any different because they have days jobs, errands to run, and families to care for.” End quote.

Turning Your Largest Liability Into Your Largest Asset

06:03 Emily: Turning your largest liability into your largest asset—that is an incredibly powerful idea. How do they do that? Let’s define house hacking. House hacking is when you buy a home, live in it, and rent out part of it. The classic house hack, according to this book, is buying a multifamily property (a duplex, triplex, or four-plex), living in one unit, and renting out the others. In that case, your tenants are your neighbors. Another variation of house hacking is to buy a single-family home and rent out the bedrooms that you do not occupy. In that case, your tenants are your roommates. There are all kinds of reasons that house hacking is powerful from a real estate investment standpoint, which The House Hacking Strategy covers very well. I’m taking a different approach, which is speaking to people who are not necessarily enamored with real estate investing, but rather want to find a way to reduce or eliminate their largest monthly expense: their rent or their mortgage payment.

07:01 Emily: Whenever I speak about frugality and reducing expenses, I ask that people first consider how they can reduce their housing expenses, even though accomplishing that can be difficult and expensive upfront. I’ve published through this podcast and highlighted in my seminars creative strategies such as serving as a resident advisor, living in subsidized or low-income housing, renting your home on AirBnB, and house hacking, although I haven’t used that term before. I published two full interviews with grad students who rent out rooms in their homes, which I’ve linked from the show notes, and some of my other guests have mentioned in passing that they use the strategy.

Benefits of a Successful House Hack

07:37 Emily: If you set up a profitable house hack, you will either: 1) Bring in enough rent to completely cover your mortgage and reserves, which is the money you need to put aside monthly for future home maintenance and vacancies, or 2) Bring in enough rent that your personal housing expense is less than what you would have paid in rent had you not house hacked. If you were to move out and rent your room, the total rent from the property would be more than the mortgage and reserves. A minimally successful house hack reduces your personal housing expense. A very successful house hack puts money in your pocket on a monthly basis. I believe house hacking is a hugely powerful strategy for PhD students and a great one for postdocs and other early-career PhDs. It’s accessible to many more early-career PhDs than those who currently pursue it.

08:26 Emily: I’m going to focus in this episode on single PhD students and their numbers since they are the most difficult case. If you have a postdoc income or Real Job income, getting into a house hack will be easier, and likewise if you have two incomes to work with instead of one. I want to throw in a word of caution that this episode is just a short summary of part of a book that is not super in-depth either. So while I want to encourage you to look into this strategy, you must do your due diligence in your local market before taking the step to actually buy a home.

Why is House Hacking a Great Fit for Grad Students?

08:59 Emily: So why is house hacking a great fit for graduate students? First, a traditional grad student fits perfectly into the ideal demographic of house hackers: people without children who are willing to live with other people. That’s not to say that you can’t house hack if you do have children, but it might look different for you. Second, a grad student basically by definition lives near a university, which boasts a large pool of potential tenants. I think it would be straightforward to set up a house hack where all your tenants are fellow grad students, the way Dr. Matt Hotze from Season 3 Episode 3 did. Third, grad students have limited avenues for increasing their incomes. Yes, it is possible and you should do what you can within the rules of your visa, department, funding, etc. House hacking is a way to increase your income without violating the letter or spirit of any of the restrictions placed on you and will almost certainly take less time than a side hustle for what you earn.

Curelop’s Five House Hacking Strategies

09:56 Emily: Curelop presents five house hacking strategies. On one side of the spectrum, you have the strategy that necessitates the smallest lifestyle change but is also the least profitable. On the other side of the spectrum, you have the strategy that is the most profitable, but that also necessitates the largest lifestyle change. From least profitable to most profitable, the strategies are: 1. Rent out an accessory dwelling unit on your property 2. Purchase a multi-unit property and renting out the units you do not occupy 3. Purchase a home and rent out the rooms you do not occupy 4. Rent out your own bedroom and sleep in your living room 5. Rent out your whole residence and live in a trailer or RV in your driveway If you’re like me, strategies 4 and 5 do not sound very appealing! I’m going to focus on strategy 3 in this episode, but it’s perfectly fine if another strategy is the best fit for you.

House Hacking: Ongoing Costs

10:56 Emily: Let’s talk more about both sides of the house hacking ledger now, first your ongoing costs and then how you make money. On the costs side, every month you need to make your mortgage payment, which consists of principal paydown of your loan, interest, property tax, homeowner’s insurance, and probably private mortgage insurance or PMI. You might also have a homeowner’s association payment. Another cost, which is irregular, is the cost of maintenance and repairs on the home and also renovation if you choose to do that. Curelop recommends putting aside every month a few hundred dollars—what he calls reserves—for home repairs and also to help you make your mortgage payment when you are between tenants. He also says you should have $10,000 at a minimum in your reserves to start with. If you don’t have $10,000 yet, he suggests securing access to a line of credit in case something comes up that you can’t cover with your existing reserves.

House Hacking: Net Worth Increases

11:41 Emily: That covers the ongoing costs of operating your house hack. I’ll get to the up-front costs a little later. Now for the exciting part: how your net worth increases while you house hack. First and most importantly, you will collect rent from your tenants. As I said earlier, this rent should either completely cover your mortgage payment and reserves or at least reduce your personal housing expense. Second, each month as you make your mortgage payments, you will pay down the principal balance of your loan. Now, in the first few years after you take out the loan, only a very small fraction of your payment goes to principal due to the amortization schedule; the great majority goes to interest, tax, insurance, etc. So principal paydown is a relatively small factor early on in the mortgage. Third, your home is likely to appreciate in value over time. When you sell, it will probably be worth more than what you bought it for. Appreciation comes in two forms, natural and forced.

Natural and Forced Appreciation

12:48 Emily: Natural appreciation is the general increase in real estate prices over time. According to Curelop, historically real estate has appreciated 6% per year on average across the US. Now, as we all remember from the housing crisis, different real estate markets do appreciate at different rates, and depreciation is also possible if you get really unlucky with your timing. So while natural appreciation is likely to be in effect over the long term, you can’t count on it over the short term. Forced appreciation is when you do something to a property to increase its value, such as finishing a basement to add bedrooms and a bathroom. You of course have much more control over forced appreciation than natural appreciation. If you choose your renovation judiciously, you can increase the value of your property by more than what you spent. Appreciation can rival rent collection as the most positive factor in increasing your net worth through house hacking, but it’s only realized when you sell the home. Fourth, there are tax benefits to rental real estate. Curelop doesn’t go into much detail on this in the book and I’m not familiar with them so I won’t elaborate either, but this is another way that your house hack is less costly to you than owning a home that you don’t rent out.

Seven Common Objections to House Hacking

14:00 Emily: I hope the financial advantages of house hacking have sufficiently excited you about the idea. Curelop also presents and then counters seven common objections to house hacking. I’ll list all seven, but only go into the arguments against a few of them. Just know that if the others are hurdles for you, he does address them in the book. 1. House hacking is more work than renting. 2. When you house hack, you will share space with other people. 3. You need to keep a professional relationship with your tenants. 4. You have to live in an investment property, which might not be as nice of a location as you could afford. 5. The housing market could tank. 6. You have to put more money down to house hack than your up-front rental costs. 7. Your tenants might fail to pay you. My overall observation of this list is that these objections are all valid. They all have at least a kernel of truth or a possibility of occurring. I think it would be really helpful to identify every adverse event that could occur and come up with a plan for how you would respond. Going through that exercise might make you feel better about moving forward with house hacking instead of just being generally nervous about the downside risk.

Counterpoints to Some Common Objections to House Hacking

15:11 Emily: I want to add some thoughts to a few of the aforementioned objections. 2. “When you house hack, you will share space with other people.” Having roommates is pretty standard in graduate school for single people. Even if you could afford to rent a place on your own, it wouldn’t be strange to choose to have roommates instead. I’ve also known plenty of PhDs who continue to live with roommates even after they couple up or get married. I think this is less of an objection for our population than others, at least up until the point that you have children. 3. “You need to keep a professional relationship with your tenants.” and 7. “Your tenants might fail to pay you.” My fantasy house hack for a graduate student is to rent to other grad student peers and to be friends or at least friendly with your tenants. It is important to maintain professionalism at least within the bounds of your landlord-tenant relationship. You should be a great landlord, responsive and fair. I hope your tenants will respond in kind and not try to take advantage of your personal relationship. Curelop devotes a whole chapter to screening tenants, which as a new landlord I think you should follow to the letter. Of course, this book was published prior to 2020. The possibility of tenants not paying and not being able to evict them probably didn’t occur to many landlords, but now it’s on everyone’s radar. As a house hacker, you should make sure that you are financially capable of paying the mortgage even if your tenants are unable to pay rent for an extended period of time. If your university offers funding guarantees, I think that’s worth asking about on a rental application. You can’t prevent a tenant from misusing their money to the extent that they are unable to pay rent, but you can make sure that their income is reliable.

Four Considerations to Purchasing a House Hack

16:56 Emily: What does it take, financially, to purchase a house hack? Is it feasible where you live now? Let’s consider four elements. 1. The cost of properties appropriate for house hacking 2. The price to rent a room 3. Your stipend or salary 4. Your savings First, how expensive of a home could you buy on your income or your household’s income? Interest rates are so low now that rules of thumb like “Your mortgage shouldn’t exceed three times your income” have become outdated. Really, I’m asking two different questions here: 1) How large of a mortgage will you qualify for? and 2) How much of a mortgage would you feel comfortable taking out? Some house hackers will take out the largest mortgage they qualify for because they are counting on rental income to help pay it, but you might be more conservative, as I discussed before.

17:48 Emily: I’m going to talk this over with Sam Hogan a bit more in the second half of this episode. According to what he told us in our last interview, Season 5 Episode 17, if an applicant has no debt and excellent credit, they could qualify for a mortgage of four to five times their yearly income. If you have debt or merely good credit, the multiple will be smaller. Now, whether taking out that much debt is prudent is up to you. If you weren’t house hacking, I would say no, but if you are, it depends on your risk tolerance. Now you have a ballpark idea of the size of mortgage you could take out. You of course need to work with a mortgage originator like Sam to calculate your exact number. But going forward with the ballpark number, are homes available for less than or around that mortgage amount? Or is it way too low to buy anything? You can use a site like Redfin or Zillow to figure out what a house hack would cost you. If you’re looking for a townhouse or single-family home to house hack, perhaps you would look for a 2 bedroom place at a minimum. Broadly speaking, the more bedrooms you can purchase, the more rental income you’ll be able to generate.

Consider Cost-of-Living

18:56 Emily: If you live in a high cost of living area and you’re trying to purchase a home with one grad student income, you are likely to find that everything is out of reach. It’s disappointing, but don’t give up on the idea of house hacking for later in life. If you find that you can maybe afford to buy something, the next question is whether a house hack, in particular, is viable. Can you rent out the bedrooms that you won’t occupy for enough to at least reduce if not eliminate your housing cost? The answer is not an automatic yes for the type of home you can afford. If you’re not familiar with rental prices by the room in your area, check Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace. Having verified that house hacking is viable on your income and in your rental market, we come to the last piece of the puzzle, which is the down payment and closing costs. In the interview with Sam coming up next, we discuss the down payment requirements of various mortgage programs. If you’re not a veteran, you’re looking at 3% at minimum, but Sam suggests up to 10% in some cases. So for a low-cost property, the down payment could be as little as a few thousand dollars.

Five-Year Rule of Thumb

20:02 Emily: Curelop states in the book that closing costs are typically paid by the seller, not the buyer, so the money the buyer has to come to the table with above the down payment is rather minimal, perhaps a few hundred or a thousand dollars. Even if you don’t have the savings required to fund a home purchase in your bank account right now, how quickly could you come up with the money if a fire were lit underneath you? Over the course of a year, a vigorous side hustle, a higher-paying fellowship, or a summer internship could do the trick. Since I mentioned a year, I want to address the five-year rule of thumb. I know that many grad students and postdocs feel a ticking clock when it comes to considering real estate purchases. Many of us expect to move with every new career stage we attain. The five-year rule of thumb implies that you may not even break even if you buy a home instead of renting during grad school or your postdoc because of the high transaction costs that come with buying and selling and that you can’t count on natural appreciation over short time frames.

21:00 Emily: What I found interesting about The House Hacking Strategy is that it concentrates on the return on investment that can be achieved within one year. The reason for the focus on that timeline is that owner-occupancy mortgage loans require you to live in the property for one year. An aggressive house hacker might move every year to a new house hack, collecting rental real estate along the way instead of selling. The point that I want you to take from this is that you don’t have to listen to rules of thumb or rely on appreciation to overcome the transaction costs of real estate. Instead, you can use the rental income from your tenants. A house hack might be viable for you even if you plan to remain in your current city for only a couple of years—you just have to look at the numbers. Also, it’s important to plan your exit before you purchase your house hack. Are you open to turning it into a fully rented property after you move? Do the numbers still work if you have to hire a property management company? Or if you are sure that you will sell, you need to account for the high closing costs in your calculations.

Thought Exercise: Three Example House Hacks

22:02 Emily: Now let’s get into those numbers I mentioned earlier! As a quick exercise, I looked at the list of universities I’ve given or am scheduled to give webinars for in the 2020-2021 academic year to see whether house hacking was viable in those cities and what the numbers might be. Here was my process: 1) I searched Redfin for the university’s city with a max asking price of $150,000. I typically set a 3 bedroom search minimum, but sometimes adjusted up to four or down to two. I picked a house within a few miles of the university, something that looked move-in ready and not the cheapest available. 2) I searched craigslist for the area the house was in to get an idea of rental prices by the room and picked a price in the middle to low end of what I saw. 3) I went back to Redfin to look at the estimated mortgage payment. I set that the buyer would put 5% down and get a 3% interest rate.

23:03 Emily: I’m now going to share with you the properties and numbers I found in three of the cities I looked at. Of course, this was a cursory search, so my selections and numbers might be off due to a lack of local insight. Just consider this a ballpark estimate. Also, please note that I’m doing this exercise in January 2021, and both the renting and buying markets are really weird right now due to the pandemic and it being outside of the high home buying season. If you do this search even just a couple of months from now, it might look totally different, let alone a couple of years.

23:39 Emily: Example #1 is in East Lansing, Michigan, near Michigan State University. The property I picked is a 3 bedroom, 2 bath, 1500 square foot single family home, and the asking price is $89,900. A 5% down payment is $4,495, and the monthly mortgage payment would be $752. I picked $400 per month as the rental price per room. That means that renting out two of the bedrooms covers the mortgage payment while you live in the third. After setting aside a couple hundred dollars per month for reserves, you have reduced your own housing cost by about $200 per month. Over the course of one year, assuming that your irregular expenses did not exceed your reserves, you would have reduced your own housing expense by $2,400. Over five years, that turns into reducing your own housing expense by $12,000, and that’s without taking into account possible rent increases.

24:43 Emily: Example #2 is in Louisville, Kentucky, near the University of Louisville. The property I picked is a 4 bedroom, 2 bath, 1300 square foot single-family home, and the asking price is $134,000. A 5% down payment is $6,700, and the monthly mortgage payment would be $777. I picked $500 per month as the rental price per room. That means that renting out two of the bedrooms covers the mortgage payment and perhaps all of the reserves. You would live for free in the third bedroom and pocket the $500/month rent from the fourth bedroom. Over the course of one year, assuming that your irregular expenses did not exceed your reserves, you would have taken in $6,000 in rent above your mortgage payment and reduced your own housing expense by $6,000. Over five years, that turns into $30,000 in rent collected and reducing your own housing expense by $30,000, and that’s without taking into account possible rent increases.

25:48 Emily: Example #3 is just outside St. Louis, Missouri, near the Washington University in St. Louis. The property I picked is a 4 bedroom, 2 bath, 1800 square foot single-family home, and the asking price is $150,000. A 5% down payment is $7,500, and the monthly mortgage payment would be $925. I picked $600 per month as the rental price per room. That means that renting out two of the bedrooms covers the mortgage payment and perhaps all of the reserves. You would live for free in the third bedroom and pocket the $600/month rent from the fourth bedroom. Over the course of one year, assuming that your irregular expenses did not exceed your reserves, you would have taken in $7,200 in rent above your mortgage payment and reduced your own housing expense by $7,200. Over five years, that turns into $36,000 in rent collected and reducing your own housing expense by $36,000, and that’s without taking into account possible rent increases.

26:53 Emily: Now, if those numbers don’t motivate some of you in low- to medium-cost of living areas, I don’t know what will! You can literally buy an income stream that will benefit you to the tune of thousands or over ten thousand dollars per year for a few thousand dollars, an extra hour here or there, and the willingness to take a risk. And that’s not even counting the principal paydown, tax benefits, and potential appreciation! Keep in mind that all of my examples are completely made up. I’m just trying to ballpark some numbers and show that this is possible in some places on one grad student’s income. Curelop publishes the numbers of a real house hacker at the end of each chapter. For transparency, I didn’t examine every city on my list of candidates. I skipped the California ones, I only briefly glanced at Austin, Texas and Boston, Massachusetts to verify that $150,000 won’t buy you anything near the universities right now. I went down a road a bit in Providence, Rhode Island before crossing it off my list. But I thought these three examples were good ones. Purchasing may very well be possible in those other markets if you have more than a single grad student stipend to work with, or perhaps at a time of year when there is higher volume on the market. After the commercial break, I’ll be back with my interview with Sam Hogan.

Commercial

28:15 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you know that you want support in accomplishing a big financial goal this spring, I recommend my group coaching program, The Wealthy PhD. You and I will meet one-on-one to identify and plot a course toward your big financial goal. Past participants have opened IRAs, set up systems of targeted savings, started budgeting, systematically implemented frugal tactics, and more. Every week for eight weeks, you’ll participate in a small accountability group that I facilitate. The group will help keep you on track to meet small weekly goals that add up to your big goal. Prospective grad students, this would be a perfect cycle to join as I and the other participants can give you a ton of support and financial insight as you interview and ultimately choose your PhD program. The deadline for discounted early bird registration for The Wealthy PhD is Saturday, January 30th, 2021. Visit pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD to learn more and register today. Now, back to our interview.

Welcome Back, Sam! How Can People Find You?

29:26 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today my brother, Sam Hogan. Sam is a Senior Loan Officer at Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage), and we’ve been having conversations over the last several years about how grad students and postdocs, especially, can get mortgages when their income is maybe it’s fellowship instead of employee. Maybe it’s temporary instead of a long-term thing. We’ve had these conversations before. So if you’re, you know, liking what you hear today from Sam, please go back and listen to season two, episode five, that’s a two-part interview. The first part is with a person who actually house hacked, Jonathan Sun. And then the second part of the interview is with Sam. And then Sam was also back in season five, episode 17, where we talked a lot more about this issue of fellowships and being able to qualify for a mortgage with fellowship income. So Sam’s back today to talk about house hacking. I gave him an assignment. I told him to read The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop along with me so that we could have a conversation about it and get his perspective as a loan officer. So Sam, welcome back to the podcast.

30:32 Sam: Thank you for having me happy to be here.

30:34 Emily: Can you upfront say your contact information, everything for the audience?

30:38 Sam: Yep. My cell phone is (540) 478-5803. And then my email is sam.hogan@movement.com.

What Did You Think About the Book?

30:48 Emily: Yeah. And you’ve been getting a lot of referrals. A lot of people have been finding you through the podcast episodes you’ve done before. Graduate students and post-docs and early-career PhDs. So we’ll talk about a few of those sort of case studies in a little bit, but first I just wanted to get your general impressions about the book on house hacking. I know that you are not a house hacker, although you are a landlord, but yeah, just what did you think about this book and this idea generally?

31:16 Sam: Very motivational. Definitely on the aggressive side of house hacking, giving suggestions, like living in a trailer in your driveway. Not something I would do personally, but it’s a step in the right direction. I mean, people need to know that it’s okay to live in a house for just one year and then buy another property the following year. So I liked it a lot. There were some accuracy things that I would’ve changed just regarding loan approval, but the loan guidelines and laws we have to stay within, they change annually. So there are always little tweaks and adjustments, especially 2020 was a funky year. So they made some higher credit score requirements and things like that. Generally speaking.

Did it Make You Want to Try House Hacking?

32:01 Emily: I think that’s a really good way of approaching this book. I do see it more of like a motivational book and like an overview, but maybe not once you drill down into the specifics, like, yeah, it might not be accurate year to year because things do change. The book was published in 2019, but as you said, 2020 kind of upended, a lot of things we’re recording this interview in January, 2021. So yeah, I totally agree about the book. And did it make you want to try house hacking?

32:27 Sam: It did. And then they also made me reflect on what I had when I was still living in a one-bedroom, one bathroom, how I actually rented out the common area to a buddy who needed a place to live.

32:39 Emily: Oh yeah, because you were house hacking for a little while. I forgot about that. Because your place was only a one-bedroom, but you did have a tenant.

32:46 Sam: Yeah, he was just switching jobs. He’s also in finance. And yeah, he ended up just bunking with me. And I think it was only like $4,000 for the year, but Hey, I mean that’s $4,000 I didn’t have to start out with.

Real Example of Potential for House Hacking

33:03 Emily: Yeah, definitely. And before this point in the interview, I’ll have told the listeners a lot of the principles from the book. So we don’t have to go through all of those in detail, but I wanted to really get from your unique perspective, some ideas about how a graduate student or how someone on a lower income can actually make this house hacking strategy work. Of course it will not work in every housing market. We know that. The incomes for graduate students and postdocs are too low to make it work in high cost-of-living areas. But there is a chance of it working in lower cost-of-living areas even on one income. But especially if you did have two incomes or if maybe instead of a graduate student or a post-doc, you know, there are some different situations where this does work out. So I wanted to get from you, you know, from all the clients that you’ve worked with a few examples of people who either were planning on house hacking, and you knew that at the time you were making the loan or who bought a large enough place that they could house hack if they wanted to. So can you talk us through a couple of those examples?

34:03 Sam: Yeah. So I mean the best example which has happened, I would say many times over, is in North Carolina. One student purchasing that, you know, the regular stipend amount of around $32,000 a year. I actually just looked up the property it had appreciated. He bought it at 200,000, put 10,000 down, was still within his debt-income ratio. He closed in April last year, and when he started off the process, he did say he was going to house hack. When I followed up with him a few months after closing, he didn’t end up renting out any rooms. He enjoyed having those extra spaces. So I’ll probably check up with him in the spring and see if he had changed his mind. But, I mean, it was a four-bedroom place, so he definitely had the ability to do it, but then just didn’t execute after closing because I guess he was comfortable with the payment enough.

35:02 Emily: I do want to emphasize that whenever you’re planning a house hack, it’s really vital to be confident that you could make the mortgage payment without any rent coming in. Maybe in the case like this person, you just decided not to rent out the rooms, ultimately your life circumstances change, or you want your privacy or whatever. Or it could be that, Hey, maybe you have a tenant, but that tenant is not paying you. And that’s happened a lot in 2020. It’s really a difficult situation to resolve for everyone. And so you need to be sure that, you know, if you scrimp and save and you reduce your other expenses, you would be able to make that mortgage payment still. So the example that you just spoke about and you said this has happened multiple times in North Carolina. I know that you’ve been working with a lot of graduate students in the Triangle, at UNC and at Duke, NC State, to make these loans happen in that area.

Loan Qualifications for a ~$32K/year Stipend

35:49 Emily: So let’s just take that market for example. So what size of a mortgage could a graduate student, let’s say, possibly take out? Like, I guess what I’m asking is, you know, they’re looking at their stipend, someone who isn’t ready to approach someone like you, a loan officer yet, but they’re looking at their stipend, they’re making 30 or $32,000. Like you said if everything were ideal in the rest of their finances, like let’s say they’re debt-free and they have a great credit score. How large of a loan could that person qualify for? Because that’s really kind of the question here is, are you going to be able to qualify for a large enough loan to make house hacking a possibility in your housing market?

36:27 Sam: So the highest I’ve been able to approve without a co-signer is 220,000. That was also in the Research Triangle.

36:37 Emily: So $220,000 on about a 30, $32,000 kind of stipend.

36:41 Sam: $32,000, this student did not have any student loans that were deferred. She was pretty much debt-free except for a few credit cards.

36:51 Emily: Okay. So pretty, really, really good solid portfolio otherwise. So just for the listeners, like house hacking could still be possible if you have those other kinds of debt, you’re just going to qualify for a little less. So it just has to work in your housing market.

37:04 Sam: Right. I mean, it’s important to understand that, like, even though you might have a similar situation to somebody else, it’s never exactly the same. So you want to have someone pull your credit, look at your entire financial picture in order to give you the results catered to your ability to purchase. You don’t want to just assume you’re going to fall into a bucket and everything will be okay. Because there are some very important details that go into this approval and those have to be evaluated by an expert. There’s just some things you can evaluate on your own, especially things like mortgage insurance, what will be allowable for your down payment, you know, in order to make your ratios work and make sure you’re within the guidelines.

37:49 Emily: So I think what I would encourage the listeners to do, if they are enthusiastic about this idea of house hacking but they’re not sure if they’re going to make it work is look really high level at what is your income and then what are houses, at least probably a two-bedroom home of some kind, selling for in your area. And if you’re within like striking distance of like, maybe I could get a loan, possibly, I’m not sure, for enough to make this work. That’s the time to approach someone like you that is to say, to approach you because you’re the expert in this subject and ask, well, how much can I be approved for? And then figure out whether or not there are houses in your area that would help you make this strategy work.

Different Types of Loans Available in the Marketplace

38:27 Emily: So let’s talk about the down payment for a moment because you just brought that up and we’d actually, didn’t talk about this much in our last episode. And it’s an important factor to consider. I would the two big hurdles for especially graduate students to buy homes are: one, qualifying for a big enough mortgage on their low income, and two, having enough of a down payment. So would you just really quickly run through the different types of loans that there are available in the marketplace and how much of a down payment is required for each of them?

Sam (38:55): Yeah. So some of your most popular loans, FHA loans and conventional loans. FHA a classic first-time home buyer basically program. It’s insured by the Federal Housing Administration, and the down-payment is three and a half percent. So they make it very achievable. There’s some employment and income that’s not accepted for FHA. So you want to check with your lender. And then when we get over to the good stuff, the conventional loans, taken out, allow you to go as little as 3% down and that can come from a gift from a family member or a friend. It doesn’t have to be your own verified funds. More commonly, Epic FHA loans are not a good fit for fellowship income, but if you have regular W2 income or some other employment, maybe a second job you’ve had for a year or two, this is also a good option.

39:45 Sam: Now if you have excellent credit, you’re going to want to get into the conventional loan bucket because it’s going to have lower mortgage insurance. It allows as little as 3% down. When we’re thinking about stipend income at $32,000 a year, you going to want to lean towards 5%–or 10%–down to make your ratios work. This is all going to depend on working with, you know, someone you trust so they can evaluate your personal qualifications. Okay. But outside of those two popular loan products, we have VA loans. So if you’re a veteran and you’re back in school, VA loans are a piece of cake. They require no down payment. There’s no mortgage insurance. There are a lot of good other good benefits. Like the VA loan can be assumed by another person and take over that low rate that you’ve already established.

40:39 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for explaining that. So we’re talking about 3% down, as little as 3% down for conventional, although you’re recommending five or 10% as maybe a better fit, depending on the person. FHA loans, three and a half percent down. VA loans, 0% down. So the kind of range of downpayment costs that we’re talking about are, it sounds like, okay, let’s say on a $150,000 property, that would be like four and a half thousand dollars at 3%, up to $15,000, if you were putting down 10%. So kind of somewhere in that range is what we’re talking about as a minimum down payment. I don’t know, in one sense, it’s a lot of money for a graduate student to come up with that. That’s a pretty, you know, it’s a good chunk of a year’s salary. However, if the outcome is getting you into a house that cashflows you every month, or at least reduces your housing expense every month, in the long-term, it’s a small amount of money. It can be a larger amount of money to come up with in the moment. And you just mentioned for conventional loans, it is acceptable for someone like a parent, perhaps, to gift you the down payment.

41:44 Sam: This is very common.

41:48 Emily: And I was of course, very impressed by, you know, the case studies that were in the house hacking strategy of people making back their entire initial investment and more, you know, within the first year of owning their house hack, that is the down payment money. Plus maybe they put in some renovation funds. It was some really, really inspiring case studies. And of course you have to take everything with a grain of salt because the author is going to be picking the absolute best to include in the book, run the numbers in your own situation. But I mean, as you just said, compared to renting, which is a pure drain on your net worth, you have a really good chance of, you know, actually coming out ahead with house hacking–with buying, but like house hacking makes it even more sure. You know, that you’re going to come out ahead when you have that rental income coming in.

42:33 Sam: Yeah. And I do want to say the examples he gives in this book, they are very good examples. I also feel like he’s kind of, double-dipping on some of the numbers sometimes because I mean, you’re not paying $8,000 down on your loan amount in your first year of ownership. You’re paying mostly interest. So I just felt like he was kind of double-dipping with, Oh, if I have this extra rental income and I have that, plus I’m using that to pay down my loan, you know, and then he’s making it motivational, I’ll say. But is that realistic at all markets? Definitely not.

Examples Outside of the Research Triangle

43:13 Emily: I wanted to get an idea of you of a few other housing markets that you’ve worked with grad students in. Maybe not specifically for house hacking, but just grad students who have been able to buy homes around other universities. Can you give us a few examples outside of the Research Triangle?

43:28 Sam: Yeah. I mean, I’ve had success in outside of Boston, Massachusetts, where you think it’s a high-cost area and then someone on a fellowship wouldn’t afford it. That has been successful. Outside of Denver, Colorado. We’ve also had some purchases there with a post-doc. Gosh, Miami, Florida, we even had someone purchase who was going to University of Miami. Atlanta, Georgia is popular. Emory University has a good funding letter, which I’ve helped a few students out down there. It’s really all over. I mean, we have from Texas to Rhode Island to Tennessee and Ohio.

44:11 Emily: Yeah. That gives us a good idea. Thank you. So I was actually surprised to hear some really big markets in that list where you’ve made this work. So yeah, I would say for a grad student or postdoc, whoever who’s listening who is wondering about this strategy, just run some really high level numbers in your area. According to like what’s in the market right now and what your stipend is, and then yeah, if you think you’re within striking distance, like reach out to Sam, reach out to a few lenders and see if they can make the numbers work for you.

44:38 Sam: Yeah. I just want to put the emphasis on like, if you feel like you’re well-qualified, like you know you don’t have $200,000 in student loans. You know income’s going to continue for years plus, just reach out to myself or someone on my team because there’s very often a personal touch that we have for this community. I work with some students that have been denied by two other lenders. But they’re already in contract and you know, I’m two weeks late on working with them. So just in respect to your own time and maybe these other lenders that aren’t familiar, you know, we work a lot with the PhD community. I mean, we’re doing at least five plus deals a month right now, all over the country.

Correcting the Record: Credit Scores

45:27 Emily: Was there anything else about the book that you wanted to kind of correct the record on?

45:33 Sam: Yeah. I mean, there are a few things regarding credit score that changed in 2020, after this book was written. So last spring, when everything with COVID-19 was restricting some lenders, they upped credit score requirements. So a lot of FHA loans, you can’t really apply for them unless you’re over 640. And for conventional loans, no lenders typically go down to 620. There’s a breaking point. It’s at 660. So if your FICO score, if your middle FICO score is above 660, it’s going to be cheaper for you to go conventional monthly. The mortgage insurance is lower. Now, if your middle FICO score is below 660, it’s going to be cheaper for you to go FHA. That’s just a rule of thumb that all lenders use. When we price out everything and when we compare monthly payments, that’s the breaking point.

46:27 Sam: So if you’re at 661, I’m going to put you in a conventional loan. You’re at 660 or 659, FHA is for you. It does mention in the book, how, if you’re in an FHA loan, you will have to refinance into a conventional loan. This is a very common thing. Everybody does it. It reduces your mortgage insurance and also allows your mortgage insurance to drop off at 78% of equity. Okay. But everything else was looking really good. He had some very clear things to say for these first-time home buyers or house hackers. I would just suggest everyone to get better results. You should work with a loan officer, either myself or someone who’s also a senior loan officer who has a few years experience, so they can make something cater to your needs. But generally speaking, it was a great read. Very aggressive when he starts talking about, you know, living in a tent in the backyard and renting out every room in your three bedroom.

47:29 Emily: That strategy also was a little too much for me. And I think, you know, when I’m presenting this to my audience, it’s more about what can you make work over the course of five years? Not necessarily over the course of like one year. The book is very focused on one year and you know, there’s reasons for that from a real estate investing strategy, why that’s the case. But I think for the people who are listening to me, they’re more likely to want to stay in a place for a few years and have their own bedroom during that time.

47:58 Sam: Exactly, exactly.

Would You Please Give Your Contact Info Again?

47:58 Emily: Okay. Sam, thank you so much for this interview. Great information. I really hope we’ve gotten some people excited about house hacking, about buying homes, making it seem like a possibility earlier, even during graduate school. I know that I wish that I had seriously considered this or known about this concept when I was in graduate school. So as we close out, will you please give your contact information again?

48:19 Sam: Yeah. Thank you for having me again. The best way to reach me is by phone. It’s (540) 478-5803. My best e-mail is my work e-mail. It’s sam.hogan@movement.com.

48:34 Emily: Wonderful. Sam, thank you so much for joining me.

48:37 Sam: Of course. Thank you for having me.

Concluding Thoughts About House Hacking

48:39 Emily: I’m back with a few concluding thoughts. I fervently wish I had learned about the power of house hacking earlier in my life. I did my PhD at Duke between 2008 and 2014. I knew several fellow grad students who were house hacking, though I didn’t know the term at the time. So it was possible to make the numbers work. My husband and I together definitely could have purchased a home in 2010, the year we got married, based on our two stipends and our existing savings. However, I was still psychologically scarred from watching the housing market crash and there was a lot of talk about rigorous lending standards. We thought that we would leave Durham in 2013 perhaps, so following the five-year rule we did not pursue homeownership. We didn’t end up moving away from Durham until 2015. So in retrospect, house hacking was possible and almost certainly highly profitable, and we lived there long enough that either selling or keeping the home as a rental would have been viable options.

49:38 Emily: All that is water under the bridge for me, of course. What I can do now that I have learned about this strategy is two things: 1) I can consider how I can house hack in my present life. My husband and I are planning to buy our first home in the near future. We do want a detached single-family home but could consider adding an accessory dwelling unit. If that turns out to be impractical, perhaps we could house hack during a sabbatical year in another area of the country or once our kids are grown. 2) I can share this strategy as widely as possible, as I’m doing in this episode, and support anyone in my audience who wants to investigate or pursue house hacking. A perfect place to talk over these ideas as you pursue them is inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. In fact, we have one member already who is planning a house hack in the next few months! The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop is our monthly Book Club selection for March 2021. So jump into the Community at PFforPhDs.community and we will discuss house hacking!

50:39 Emily: I want to continue this conversation not just in the Community but also on this podcast. If you are a grad student or PhD who is currently house hacking or has done so in the past, please get in touch with me. I’d love to publish a compilation podcast episode with several real case studies. If you’d like to volunteer, even anonymously, you can reach me at emily@PFforPhDs.com.

Listener Q&A: Do I Report My Stimulus Checks?

51:07 Emily: Now, on to the other one of our two new segments, the listener question and answer. Today’s question comes from a grad student in my annual tax return workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return and Understand It Too. Here’s the question: Do I report my stimulus checks as part of my gross income? This question has a really short answer, which is no. Your stimulus checks, or your economic impact payments as the IRS calls them, do not have any effect on your tax return unless you did not receive one when you were supposed to. I’m going to read from an IRS newsroom release from last spring titled, What People Really Want to Know About Economic Impact Payments. And I’ll link to this page from the show notes. Quote, “Is this payment considered taxable income? No, the payment is not income and taxpayers will not owe tax on it. The payment will not reduce a taxpayer’s refund or increase the amount they owe when they file their 2020 tax return next year. A payment will also not affect income for purposes of determining eligibility for federal government assistance or benefit programs.” End quote. So there you have it. Super straightforward.

53:18 Emily: The stimulus checks, the economic impact payments, are not taxable. Really the only catch, like I just mentioned, is if you were in fact eligible for these payments in 2020, but the IRS didn’t know that you were eligible and you didn’t receive the payments, then you will claim what’s called a recovery rebate credit on your tax return. So on form 1040 in line 30, you’re going to have a number in that line. It’s going to be an additional credit to you, which means you’ll get more of a refund than you were expecting essentially. Now, if you’re not sure if you’re eligible for the recovery rebate credit, there is a worksheet in the instructions for form 1040 called the recovery rebate credit worksheet. And you can fill out that worksheet and it’ll tell you exactly, you know, whether or not you were eligible and whether or not you can claim the recovery rebate credit. So thank you Aanonymous for that question.

53:18 Emily: By the way, if you’re interested in learning more about my tax workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return and Understand It Too, and potentially join it like this questioner did, you can go to PFforPhDs.com/taxworkshop to find more information. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to PFforPhDs.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

53:48 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q and A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media with an email listserv or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD’s Message for University Housing Is “Work with Us, Not Against Us”

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Travis Seifman, a postdoc at the University of Tokyo. During graduate school, Travis lived in university housing at multiple universities, but chiefly two campuses of the University of California. While the housing was subsidized and convenient to arrange, Travis noted a few downsides and annoyances. Travis and Emily discuss the differences between university housing and private housing and wonder how best to allocate this scarce resource. Travis proposes an adjustment in the approach that universities can take toward their housing administration: “Make it reasonable for adults.” This episode, recorded in August 2019, should serve as a conversation starter regarding the objective of university housing and its administration, especially in the era of COVID-19.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Travis: The purpose of university housing is not to make money for the university. The purpose of university housing is to provide an affordable place to live for students, in light of the fact that we’re only making X amount and they know full well that we’re only making X amount. And in light of the fact that in many of these communities, local housing, regular market housing is extremely expensive. Making it affordable, and then also making it reasonable for adults.

Updates

00:31 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode four, and before we jump into the interview, I have some personal and business updates to share with you. I’m going to start adding short updates to the beginning of each episode. This week, I have a pretty huge one on both the personal and business front, which is that my family moved from Seattle, Washington to Orange County, California at the end of August, my husband and I lived in Seattle for five years and had both of our kids while we lived there, so it’s a big change for all of us. This move brings us one step closer to our next financial goal of buying our very first home, which we are trying to do in 2021. I am documenting all the steps we’re taking to reach that goal in my progress journal inside the Personal Finance for PhDs community. If you want to keep up with our journey, or document your own, or access the multitude of resources in the community, you can find it at pfforphds.community. Now onto the interview.

Introduction

01:35 Emily: My guest is Dr. Travis Seifman, a postdoc at the university of Tokyo. During graduate school, Travis lived in university housing at multiple universities, but chiefly two campuses of the University of California. While the housing was subsidized and convenient to arrange, Travis noted a few downsides and annoyances. We discussed the differences between university housing and private housing, and wonder how best to allocate this scarce resource. Travis proposes an adjustment in the approach that universities can take toward their housing administration: make it reasonable for adults. I expect that this episode recorded in August, 2019 will serve as a conversation starter regarding the objective of university housing and its administration, especially in the era of COVID-19. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Travis Seifman.

Can You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:29 Emily: I have joined me on the podcast today, Dr. Travis Seifman. I’m delighted to have him. Travis, thank you so much for joining me. We’re going to be talking today about university-affiliated housing and Travis’s wide range of experiences with university affiliated housing. So Travis, thank you for joining me today, and will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

02:49 Travis: Thanks so much for having me, Emily. I’ve just finished my PhD in history at UC Santa Barbara, University of California, Santa Barbara, this year. My main research focus is on early modern Japan and Okinawa and rituals, diplomatic relations between them. I previously did two master’s degrees, actually at the University of Hawaii and the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London. Um, so I’ve lived in a few different places. And during my research, I also lived for a short time at the University of the Ryukyus in Okinawa, and at the University of Tokyo.

Travis’s Experience with University-Affiliated Housing

03:25 Emily: And all these different places that you’ve lived, at least some of them, or most of them you’ve lived in what I’m saying is university-affiliated housing. Can you describe the housing situations — main situation or multiple — that you’ve had?

03:37 Travis: Yeah, sure. Just to say it very briefly. When I was at SOAS in London, I stayed in grad student dorms, university housing. University of Hawaii, I stayed in regular private departments for one year. And then for two years, I lived at the East West Center, a federally funded think tank organization located adjacent to the university of Hawaii. So I lived in their dorms for a couple of years. Then, when I moved to UC Santa Barbara, they have dorms for single grad students and they also have family housing. I’ve lived in both of those, and I’ve also lived with my girlfriend at the family housing at UCLA. And during my research trips, I stayed at university dorms, visiting researcher dorms at both University of Ryukyus and university of Tokyo.

04:22 Emily: Why don’t you start with where you UCSB where did your PhD? What was your experience there with that housing?

04:28 Travis: To a certain extent, I would say it’s overall positive, simply in that university housing is always an easy go to option when you’re moving across the country or even moving to a different country. You know how to apply for it. You don’t have to arrive early, or get a hotel while you search for apartments and all this kind of stuff. And it’s often cheaper than the housing that’s around.

04:50 Emily: Do you think that it’s sometimes or usually is cheaper than going off campus because the accommodations are different, like maybe less private, for example, than what you’d get off campus, or have you actually lived in like subsidized university housing?

05:08 Travis: I think everywhere I’ve lived has been subsidized, whether it’s subsidized enough is another question. One place we could start is to just talk about the price. When I was living in the single dorms, the single person dorms at UC Santa Barbara to begin with my first year, the rent was somewhere around $980 per person in a four bedroom apartment. And the apartments in that area are somewhere around that cost. It’s the most I’ve ever paid to live anywhere. It was more than I paid to live in a private apartment in Honolulu. It was more than I’ve paid anywhere else that I’ve lived in my life for dorms in Goleta, which is a town that I had never heard of before I even moved there. We’re not even in Santa Barbara proper.

05:52 Emily: One clarifying question — you were living in a single person room, right? You had a private room in a four bedroom suite, is that right?

06:00 Travis: Yeah, it’s four individual private rooms, shared in a suite. It was $980, or somewhere around there, per month. And after I think, my second or third year there, the grad student association, or perhaps it was the TA union, actually managed to negotiate with the administration to get the rent lowered to $780, which I thought was an incredible victory. I don’t know how typical that is at other campuses, but we did manage to get it down. Regardless of what the market can bear in the area, it’s much more reasonable based on what we’re being paid.

06:38 Emily: Do you mind sharing what your stipend was at that time?

06:41 Travis: I believe it was somewhere around $1,900 a month, so if you spend half of that on rent —

06:46 Emily: Yeah, that’s quite high.

06:48 Travis: Yeah, and meanwhile, the family housing was somewhere around $1,300 a month, so you’re paying $1,300 for an entire apartment. I understand, obviously, subsidizing for families because they need it more, they have more dependents, but just to sort of mentioned that.

07:07 Emily: When you describe family housing or a whole apartment, are you saying it’s a studio or a one bedroom, two bedroom? How large is it?

07:14 Travis: Yeah, so I forget what precisely the rates are, but UCSB family housing has one bedroom apartments, they have two bedroom apartments. There’s a number of different configurations, but basically one bedroom and two bedroom, and I think they charge somewhere around $1,300 a month. And I’ve lived in one of those two bedroom apartments for a year as well.

07:36 Emily: So that was $1,300 for the entire apartment, so split between two presumably adults, maybe they have kids or maybe they don’t.

07:47 Travis: Yeah, exactly. So split between two adults, presumably both adults have some kind of income, but you know, one of them might not, one might be on a grad student stipend and the other one might be stay at home spouse, with children.

08:01 Emily: I think that’s not uncommon among international students, that if you get a spousal visa, the spouse is not permitted to work in the United States.

08:10 Travis: Right. That’s true. I hadn’t actually thought about that point. That’s true.

University-Affiliated Housing vs. the Private Market

08:13 Emily: How did it compare for you as a renter in that place versus if you had gone to the private market, as you had in the past?

08:22 Travis: When you’re working with the university housing, at least you have the advantage of that there’s an entire administration there and you kind of know who to talk to, as opposed to finding the landlord, like how do I actually get in touch with them? And to be fair, I suppose a lot of the rules probably aren’t too different, in terms of whether or not you’re allowed to have pets, most apartments don’t allow pets. Most landlords don’t want you repainting the walls or putting nails in the walls or anything like that. So in terms of a lot of those things, I suppose, I can’t say it’s too different. University housing has the opportunity to be more caring and more understanding about students. The idea that a landlord is in it for the money, that’s just the way things are. The university, ostensibly is not in it for the money. They’re in it to provide housing for members of their community. And so there’s an opportunity there to say, not just anything goes, but just to kind of be understanding of people’s needs, provide allowances, and just be a little bit more open.

09:30 Emily: I think what you’re saying is these students are part of the university community, right? The university is also their employer in many cases, or the administrator of their fellowships. It’s where they’re spending all their time and you’re part of this specific group. It’s not like when you go to the open market and as you said, it’s basically just about price, that’s it. It’s not intentionally trying to foster community or positive relationships between the landlord or the tenants or among the tenants or anything. So university housing is in a different position in that way. And like you said, one of the really positive things that it does is it makes it easy for students who are moving to a new area to find housing. They know they’re not going to be hosed. They’re not going to get in with a bad landlord or whatever. If it’s provided by the university, they know they have already a degree of trust there, is that right?

10:20: Right, right. And I think two places where private housing has the advantage over university housing because of the way that it’s administered, is in terms of access to guests, for example. I’ve had private landlords who’ve said we don’t want really loud parties, we don’t want you disrupting the whole community. But generally you have a key to your apartment that you can give to a guest if you’re leaving for a week or whatever it is. Nobody needs to know about it. You can have overnight guests and nobody needs to know about it. You can sublease and whether that’s officially allowed or not under the lease, you can sublease and people generally don’t have to know about it. University housing, they have all kinds [rules] — you can only sublease to single students who are actively UCSB students. Or if you’re in a family apartment, you can only sublease to people who qualify to be in a family apartment. If you’re going away for the summer, or if you’re going to wait for a whole year to do your research, it’s extremely limiting and for no really good reason.

11:21 Travis: A lot of university apartments, typically at UCSB, they’ve instituted that you don’t have any kind of key to your apartment. You open it with your student card. So again, if I’m even just having a guest over for one night, and I need my student card to get myself into stuff on campus, I can’t give them the card to get into the apartment. It’s these kinds of, I guess, on their point of view, it helps them enforce things maybe, or maybe it’s just a convenience that they didn’t think about the ramifications of, but it’s that kind of stuff where I’m an adult and who’s to say that I can’t have overnight guests. And even at the University of Tokyo apartments, even though the rules said that your overnight guest has to be officially a family member — a sibling, parent, or spouse, or child, I guess — when I actually, when my girlfriend actually came to visit me, they said, “well, we’ve put her down as your sister, so don’t worry about it.” And it’s that kind of, we can get into it later or maybe not, but it’s that kind of being willing to bend the rules that I think is, or not even bend the rules, but just be willing to help students rather than I’m here to enforce the rules, which I think a lot housing departments could afford to have a bit more of.

12:33 Emily: Yeah, that’s interesting. Thanks for providing the example of how you actually access your home. I was thinking, I guess it kind of makes sense for security purposes that you don’t want keys being given out and anybody being able to access whatever, especially because you have roommates within your suite, right?

12:51 Travis: That’s true. And security is an issue.

12:53 Emily: But like you said, it doesn’t allow for any discretion on the part of the actual person who lives there. And you wouldn’t have that kind of — I mean, with landlords, it’s like, okay, you’re not allowed to make copies of your keys. Most likely that’s in the lease somewhere. But as you said, it doesn’t mean you can’t allow your guests to have access a time or two when you’re not physically with them. It’s again, up to your discretion, as the person having the guest over.

Interplay Between the University and it’s Housing Office

13:18 Emily: What other experiences would you like to share?

13:20 Travis: One main thing that I would like to touch upon as I touched upon a little bit already is just the idea of having the staff there to say, I’m here to help you, I’m here to help you figure things out rather than I’m here to enforce rules. To give just a couple of examples of that, UCSB housing, if you have your own car, you can register that car, not any other. Only one car and you can park in the parking structure every day. If you don’t have your own car, you get, I believe it’s two visitor park passes a month and it’s included in your rent. I had my girlfriend coming up from LA however often, and granted that’s not allowed under the lease to be having overnight guests, but even so you won’t let me register her car because it’s not in my name, so what am I supposed to do, how am I supposed to have people park? I’m allowed to park all the time. It’s included in my rent if I have my own car, but because I don’t, I only get two passes a month. Anyway, the point of the story is to say that you walk in and the administrators say, “I don’t make the rules, I just enforce them” rather than saying, “I don’t make the rules. And I know they’re stupid, so let me tell you, actually, you can park over there over the weekends, or actually you can park here, or actually, if you use this code, you can get extra visitor passes.” Fill me in on what tricks or tips there are for making this more viable. And similarly —

14:56 Emily: I think that’s a more generalizable problem with bureaucracy, and the people who enforce it, as you said, rather than actually make the rules, but the people who are on the ground, interacting with those who are displeased about the rules. Often, the first response is just a recitation of this is the rule. Like I know the rules and this is the rule. It’s a little bit harder to find someone who’s willing to like find a creative solution. And often those people know what the creative solutions are because they know the rules so well, they’re supposed to enforce them, so they know the ways around them. It’s nice when you do find someone who is willing to work with you, but it might be something that you have to push for a little bit like, “I know the rule, but like, is there another way that I can get the result that I’m going for without breaking the rule?”

15:39 Travis: Right. Exactly. And that has to do with the way that university housing is integrated into the university administration, rather than being a separate entity, because if you have a private landlord, you can deal with them and they might be more friendly or less friendly that you can deal with them without it impacting reputation with the administration or I don’t know what to say, because it’s so integrated. And then of course, you have the opposite problem as well that very often housing is not integrated well enough into the administration, and I’ve had times when the cashier’s office agreed to let me defer my rent beausethe knew they hadn’t paid me. They knew that I wasn’t in the payroll yet, so they agreed to defer my rent for a few months and then nobody told housing.

16:21 Emily: Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because not being paid on time is actually a surprisingly common problem among graduate students. You would think that if whatever the problem was — the fellowship didn’t come through, it wasn’t processed on time, whatever it was — that housing, being affiliated with the university, they would have some procedures in place for “Oh yeah, this happens sometimes. It’s not the student’s fault. It’s again on the administration, and we have this policy where they can not pay rent for awhile.” You would hope that that would be in place. Whereas with the landlord, it might be a lot of hoops you have to jump through to convince them that it’s okay for you to not pay rent. Maybe you’ll get kicked out. That’s a possibility. So it sounds like it didn’t operate quite so smoothly for you.

17:05 Travis: Right. Actually that’s a really good point too, in terms of the pros and cons of university housing. The landlord doesn’t care whether you’ve been paid or not. I mean, they could choose to be flexible on a personal basis. Whereas the university you’re hoping it’s more integrated that they know. This particular case at Santa Barbara, it worked out very well in the end. Generally speaking, I’ve had overall, I don’t know why, but somehow UC Santa Barbara administration overall seems to be the least problematic of places that I’ve interacted with. They do seem to get their stuff together. When I first arrived at, at UCSB, as happens, I think anywhere that you go, it takes a little time to get into the payroll system. The semester or the academic year starts at the very end of September, so until you’ve worked through the month of October, then you get paid at the beginning of November. Otherwise they have no work to pay you for just yet. For whatever reason, maybe it’s typical for undergrads to pay for their housing on a quarterly basis rather than on a monthly basis. So originally they charged me three months rent at once and they wanted to take it all out of my fellowship before I could even pay my credit card bills, before I could buy groceries, before I could do anything else. Long story short, I talked to the cashier’s office and they were understanding and flexible and they agreed to not only put me back onto a monthly basis, but also to defer it so I didn’t have to pay the first few months rent until November. I then started receiving notices from the housing office saying that I hadn’t paid the rent.

18:44 Emily: So it was more of an internal communication problem within the housing office.

18:46 Travis: Right. It was just an internal communication problem between the cashier’s office on campus and the housing office over by the dorms.

Commercial

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Single vs. Family University-Affiliated Housing

19:59 Emily: And then the other thing that you brought up that I was interested in is you brought this up a little bit earlier about the price differential between single student housing and family housing, and you mentioned to me earlier that what is the definition of a family is a little bit of a strange thing to be talking about with university housing, right?

20:21 Travis: Right. Sure. At UCSB and I think probably UCLA as well are quite flexible and quite open minded about what counts as a family. I hope that it works similarly at other campuses. I hope that it does. At UCSB, when I applied for family housing with my girlfriend, you don’t have to be married, you don’t have to be in a hetero relationship. All kinds of different possibilities are possible — single parent with children, all kinds of different possibilities are acceptable. But you have to prove it. And I understand why on the administrative side, because you have such a limited number of units for family housing, you want to make sure that the people who are living there are actually families who are ostensibly more in need of the extra subsidized apartments. So I understand from the administrative side that they have to find some way of kind of proving that you’re a family.

21:28 Travis: At UCLA, they just do that through a very limited set of things. You have to have a shared bank account, proof of a former lease that you used to lease together under both of your names, marriage certificates, other kinds of very formal things. UCSB, for better or for worse, they say, even if you don’t have those kinds of very formal documents, you can share with us Facebook posts, texts, screenshots of your personal and private stuff to help try to show, try to prove that you’re in a meaningful relationship. So we shared with them screenshots from Facebook and from texting to say, “Oh, my parents are coming in for Thanksgiving. Are you going to be coming to dinner with us?” Or things like this.

22:18 Emily: This reminds me a little bit of, and I only know about this from TV or whatever, about green card marriages. Not green card marriages, but marriages in which a green card is involved and like having to prove to the government that you are actually in a romantically-inspired marriage, as opposed to some other kind of arrangement. It seems a little bit of overstepping.

22:45 Emily: I guess what I’m curious about with respect to family housing, and maybe this gets into more what you think or what you think the university thinks the purpose of family housing is? What do you think the purpose of it is? And is it accomplishing that purpose?

23:00 Travis: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think it’s a complicated issue because I think that for families, especially for grad students, like I was saying before, if one partner is on a grad student stipend and the other partners being a stay at home spouse, stay at home parent. Or even if both parents are on grad student stipends, you’re providing an opportunity, providing a way for them to live affordably as a family, with their dependents. For those in those situations obviously it’s a very good thing that that’s provided. I can’t imagine how some of my friends managed to afford…just how do you afford to live? We get paid roughly $1,900 a month. If your rent is $1,300 a month for the whole apartment, and that’s your only income for an entire family with one or two kids, I don’t know how people do it. So I appreciate that they have family housing for that purpose.

24:05 Travis: But then of course the flip side is that the single students are saying, just because I’m single, just because I don’t happen to have a romantic partner or a larger family, I have to pay more per person at least to stay in these smaller apartments. I personally have never had problem with being in a dorm room situation where I have my private room attached to a common room. But I know a lot of people also who say, I’m an adult and I want a whole apartment to myself or something like this. UCLA has studio apartments for single grad students and they charge a lot of money for them. UCSB the only option on campus is these two or four bedroom apartments, like I was talking about before.

24:54 Emily: Yeah. I guess this conversation is making me think about what is the purpose of family housing? Because like you said, it’s a differentially applied benefit. There’s more subsidy available to some people because of their family versus other people. And is that fair or is that not? But we were talking about university housing versus private off campus housing, where off campus the only regulation you’re going to find is a maximum number of people who can live in a certain size space. They don’t care, married, unmarried, children, not, it doesn’t matter. So maybe there is an opportunity with on campus housing to provide some, as we were talking about earlier, some additional support for the students in most need, like we were talking about students moving long distance or from overseas — hey, that university housing is there for you to make the whole process easier. And so maybe there is an opportunity to sort of subsidize students who are more in need, like those with dependents. But for me, the harder argument actually is extending that benefit to students in two income households, two income families without any dependence. That’s what, to me, gets a little bit tricky. Like you were saying, single adult versus a couple where it’s just two adults — why should that couple get any more subsidy if both of them are working, if both of them are permitted to work? For me it’s a little bit harder to extend this benefit beyond those who have actual dependents, whether they’re children or non-working spouses.

26:29 Travis: Right. And also, as you’re saying about this, it makes me think about international students who — I don’t know the ins and outs of it. I think being an international student is a lot more difficult in all kinds of ways than the rest of us know. But I wonder, I would imagine that for international students, even beyond the simple matter of the convenience of not having to look for an apartment, the convenience of being able to just arrive in the US and have already arranged an apartment. I would imagine that looking for a private apartment as an international student, you probably have all kinds of trouble with documentation with guarantors. Part of the reason that I’ve never looked for a private apartment for myself in Japan the many times that I’ve gone there for research is because I don’t have a Japanese guarantor, and I don’t have a Japanese bank account, and I don’t have a Japanese phone number until after I have an address to give the phone company to say that I live in Japan and to get a phone number.

27:25 Emily: There’s credit scores as well. That’s another major hurdle for international students coming to the US. The US doesn’t recognize any credit that might have been established in other places.

27:35 Travis: So that’s a whole other conversation to be had about whether some kind of more consideration should be given to international students, especially international students with a family, with dependents rather than domestic students, perhaps. And then just to kind of throw it in there, at the East West center, you have the opposite situation where the East West center dorms are only for people who are on a fellowship or otherwise sort of officially affiliated with the East West center, which is this sort of Asia Pacific studies organization. And it’s about, I think it’s about 75%, my numbers might be wrong, I think it’s about 75% international students. You can only get in there if you’re on a particular kind of affiliation with this organization. If you’re a UH student who doesn’t have that affiliation, you don’t get to live in these dorms. And the dorms are primarily single rooms and double rooms. The single rooms are $400 a month, the last I checked. That was about 10 years ago, but extremely reasonable, especially for Honolulu. But if you’re in a family, you can’t live there. It’s actually kind of the opposite situation of trying to get into these subsidized apartments and family housing at other campuses. That’s a whole other complicated…they really want people to live in the community and interact with each other, on a day to day basis. But if you’re in a family, then you can’t. I think you’re absolutely right. These are the conversations that people are having. Is it fair to have these subsidized apartments only for people in certain situations, and especially if the the second spouse, the non grad student spouse is earning a proper full salary at whatever job it may be, then they absolutely can afford that apartment while other people can’t.

29:16 Emily: And in your experience, has there been any means testing. Have you been asked what your income is when you apply for housing?

29:23 Travis: I don’t recall whether or not I’ve been asked, but I’m not aware of…I mean, I don’t know what goes on in the back rooms, but I’m not aware of that being a policy. I’m not aware of them giving preference to people who don’t have the second income or anything like that. I definitely know people who live in family housing who have a second income, people who don’t have a second income, international students, non international students.

29:54 Emily: It’s just interesting, because again, when we’re comparing with private landlords, how much you make is a very important question for them to ask, to make sure that you can afford the apartment. But of course, there’s no case where they’re going to say, Oh, you make too much, of course we can’t live here. Make however much you want. It’s fine. But it goes again, back to the question of what is the purpose of university housing, and if it is subsidized, and if it is one of their objectives to help students and students’ families who have less means to be renting off campus or whatever, then it might make sense to ask about that. But again, that’s another example of maybe some overstepping that could be going on. So this is a very complicated issue, obviously.

The Ideal University Housing System

30:29 Emily: I’m wondering for you, Travis, if you were to design your ideal university housing system, maybe what would your goals be? And how would you try to achieve those goals?

30:42 Travis: It’s a really good question, and I tried to give it some thought. I don’t know, I have to admit as much as we all have gripes, and I certainly have gripes. At the same time, I’m not an expert administrator, all of the ins and outs of how it should be done, and I understand that people are trying to do what they can, but I think the key point is the purpose of university housing is not to make money for the university. The purpose of university housing is to provide an affordable place to live, for students, in light of the fact that we’re only making X amount and they know full well, that we’re only making X amount. And in light of the fact that in many of these communities, I guess it all depends on where you are at college, but for the places that I’ve lived, local housing, regular market housing is extremely expensive. Making it affordable, and then also making it reasonable for adults.

31:34 Travis: I think part of it is also whatever regulations you have — we didn’t really get into this too much — but whatever regulations you have for undergrad housing, keeping in mind, I mean they are legally adults, but you mind certain notions of trying to take care and keep control over the community in loco parentis, and all of that kind of stuff. Simply extending those policies to grad students isn’t the best way, and acknowledging that as grad students, we want to have a full apartment to ourselves, or at least have the option. We want to redecorate our places. We want to be able to have parking. We want to be able to have pets. We want to be able to come and go over the summer or for a whole year and still retain our apartment. Or if we can’t retain our apartment, then work with us as adults, I think is sort of the key point.

32:13 Travis: And again, just working with people in a way that works with us and not against us. I understand there’s a much more complicated conversation about bureaucracy in general, in terms of, if you give people exceptions, then who are you not giving exceptions to? And how is that fair? And what’s the purpose of policies if you’re not going to enforce them and all these kinds of things. Saying you can’t have overnight guests unless officially of your relationship. And then what happens when you have a girlfriend or even just a friend coming? I pay for this apartment, I should be allowed to have people stay. Just various things like that. I think the key point is just making it affordable, making it a place where real adults can live and making it friendly and workable. Making it a place where people are working with you and not against you. It’s kind of the three points I would make.

33:04 Emily: I’m really glad to have your perspective as someone who’s lived in multiple different university-affiliated housing situations like what’s worked well, what have you, what positive things have you seen about it, maybe what things can be changed. It seems to me that one of the main points that you’re making is just that the administration needs to listen to the students, and as you were just saying, treat them like adults. It seems like that at least happened in your experience at UCSB, when the union or the GSA or whichever it was, was heard and actually got that rent lowered, which is an amazing victory. I just really appreciate your perspective on those issues.

Best Financial Advice for Early Career PhDs

33:41 Emily: As we finish up, would you please share with us what your best financial advice is for another early career PhD?

33:48 Travis: Yeah, I think as someone who’s just finished, I’m not sure what kind of advice I can give for other people who have just finished, but for people who are still in the PhD, I think my main advice would just be to keep your eyes out for whatever you can apply to, and kind of be aware of the fellowships and other kinds of resources that are available for you. You can’t spend hours and hours and hours applying to every single thing and investigating every single thing, but be aware of what’s available to you and take advantage of it. If your department offers whether explicitly or sort of implicitly offers that everybody gets summer funding, at least once or offers that everyone gets at least one quarter or two quarters off before the end, make sure you take advantage of that, make sure you do that. Don’t miss the deadlines. Just be aware of what’s out there and be aware of what you’re eligible for, not just in your department, but also in grad div or in School of Humanities or in whatever other things it might be coming from.

34:49 Travis: The other thing I would say is push and advocate and make the professors, make the faculty and administration aware that certain kinds of things are not funded. This is going into a whole other conversation, and I’ll just take one more minute, but for example, at Santa Barbara, I was fortunate to have a certain amount of funding available possible, potential to me for conference travel and for research travel. And that seems very logical from a top down kind of, okay, we’re giving money for conference, traveling for research travel.

35:22 Travis: Well, what about language study and what about things that are not strictly language study? Because I’ve gotten the funding in the past to study, there’s a thing called FLAS, the Foreign Language Area Studies scholarship, which allows you to study modern languages that the government considers to be of strategic value. But then when they find out that you’re studying classical Japanese or classical Chinese, or you’re not really in a language program per se, but you’re doing paleography or how to handle documents or a workshop on how to handle documents. Well, now it’s not language study, so now there’s no funding for that. You need to make people aware that these programs exist and they cost money and you need to have funding for it from some avenue. FLAS won’t pay for it and if conference travel and research travel won’t cover it, what can the department do? What can grad div do to create something that will cover book history workshops, paleography courses, archeology field, school, and so forth.

36:18 Emily: Yeah, it sounds like, again, you’re bringing up the points of being flexible with people. If everyone’s on the same page about what the goals are, then let’s be flexible about the way that we get there. Or just not letting people fall through the cracks. If you create big planks and boards, let’s make sure there aren’t gaps that people are actually falling into between those boards. Thank you so much for adding that Travis, and thank you so much for giving this interview.

36:45 Travis: Thanks so much for having me. This was really wonderful. I really appreciate it.

Outtro

36:48 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.