In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jacqueline Nikpour, who holds a PhD in nursing from Duke University and is currently a postdoc at the University of Pennsylvania. Jackie side hustled with occasional nursing per diem jobs to supplement her stipend during grad school, but her side job also conferred unexpected benefits to her dissertation and career progression overall. Jackie details how she managed her schedule to fit in her research and writing, night shift job, and personal life. Jackie and Emily also discuss how finances are a barrier for many people to even pursue a PhD, how one-size-fits-all prohibitions against side hustling hurts the PhD workforce, and how Jackie advocates for the grad students she works with now.

Links mentioned in the Episode

• AMA on the PhD Home-Buying Process (Free Live Q&A)
• Host a PF for PhDs Seminar at Your Institution
• Emily’s E-mail Address
• PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
• PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
• Dr. Jacqueline Nikpour’s Twitter

Teaser

00:00 Jackie N: You don’t just exist in academia as a, as a person and have nothing outside of it. Like we are fully complex, complicated, messy humans. And we sort of are the total package that we are. And so I think just creating a little bit more flexibility in place because every student, every discipline is so vastly different.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.

00:58 Emily: This is Season 16, Episode 2, and today my guest is Dr. Jacqueline Nikpour, who holds a PhD in nursing from Duke University and is currently a postdoc at the University of Pennsylvania. Jackie side hustled with occasional nursing per diem jobs to supplement her stipend during grad school, but her side job also conferred unexpected benefits to her dissertation and career progression overall. Jackie details how she managed her schedule to fit in her research and writing, night shift job, and personal life. Jackie and I also discuss how finances are a barrier for many people to even pursue a PhD, how one-size-fits-all prohibitions against side hustling hurts the PhD workforce, and how Jackie advocates for the grad students she works with now.

1:46 Emily: I’d like to take this opportunity to invite you to the next Ask Me Anything on mortgages and being a first-time homebuyer with Sam Hogan, which will be this Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 8:30 PM ET / 5:30 PM PT. Sam is a mortgage originator specializing in early-career PhDs, an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs, and my brother. If you are considering or embarking on the home-buying process and have a question about any aspect of it, please join us! That goes double if you have fellowship income, which can throw a wrench in the mortgage approval process. Register for the September session or any upcoming one at PFforPhDs.com/mortgage/.

2:35 Emily: You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jackie Nikpour.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:51 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jackie Nikpour she is a PhD prepared nurse, currently doing a postdoc at the University of Pennsylvania. And our topic today is side hustling, especially as a graduate student. So Jackie, I’m really pleased that you decided to join me on the podcast today to talk about this topic and will you please introduce yourself to the audience a little bit further?

03:13 Jackie N: Sure. Thanks so much for having me, Emily. So, like you said, I’m currently finishing up my postdoc at the University of Pennsylvania. I’m a nurse by training, so started my career as a registered nurse in pediatrics, medicine, behavioral health, and then went into grad school, finished my Ph.D., and now working at the Center for Health Outcomes and Policy Research at the University of Pennsylvania School of Nursing. A lot of folks know that as the center that does all of the research on nurse staffing ratios and how that impacts patients.

03:51 Emily: And you shared with me just before we started that you are currently interviewing for a faculty position, so you are pursuing the academic faculty route.

03:58 Jackie N: Correct. I really want to stay in the research realm. Scholarship is sort of my bread and butter. And so teaching is something that I enjoy and I want to do. But my my focus is more tenure track.

Working Before Pursuing a PhD

04:13 Emily: And can you give me an idea of how long you worked as a nurse before you pursued your Ph.D.?

04:18 Jackie N: Yeah. So I would say everyone, every nurse who participates has a little bit of a different story. So I say I’m a kind of nontraditional person, but I don’t think there really is a traditional PhD prepared nurse anymore if there ever even was to begin with. So I kind of always knew from my undergraduate nursing school research experiences that I wanted to be on the research side. And I knew from both my personal life as a caregiver for a chronically ill parent and as a nurse later on, caring for kids from all over the world at Children’s Hospital, Philadelphia, but also kids from Philadelphia who oftentimes were from low income neighborhoods and might not have always had the resources to to stay healthy. I kind of knew that that as a nurse, I was often a Band-Aid for a very broken health care system. So I worked full time for a year and then pursued. I went directly from a B.S. to a PhD or a Bachelor of Science in nursing to a program. I don’t have a master’s degree at some point, and I get one that’s, again, that sounds a little bit atypical, but it’s becoming more and more common. These are more obviously research degrees, whereas a master’s in nursing is much more clinically oriented for the most part, so it’s seen as less of a requirement. So worked full time for a year, went into my PhD program and then we’ll talk about this a little bit later on. But about halfway through, started working as a nurse again in a per diem.

Transitioning From Nurse to PhD Student

05:59 Emily: Yeah. So the reason I wanted to kind of ask for this is because I wanted to know your motivation for taking side, hustling very seriously while you were in your PhD program. And I wonder if it was because you had experienced an income decrease coming into graduate school. It sounds like maybe you did, but it wasn’t like you had, you know, been multi multi year has grown accustomed that lifestyle. You were still kind of in a student kind of mindset, is that right?

06:20 Jackie N: Definitely. But it still was a hit. You know, I worked full time. I worked for a very well-renowned hospital, which is great in terms of the experiences I got. But also I think because of the name of certain well known hospitals, the pay isn’t quite as high. And so I was also long distance with my now husband before we were married at the time. So. So that was a hard kind of financial thing, traveling back and forth from Philadelphia to Atlanta. And I, you know, left that position, moved and went to making probably about half of the income that I was. But I prepared for that. I worked really hard to save up a lot of money as much as I could before I left. I tried really hard not to take as many vacation days as I had available so that they could all get paid out and say I was leaving all things that were a little bit tough but I knew were temporary and would help kind of set me up for success knowing I was going into a PhD program that would not offer the same kind of income support

Doctoral Institution and Stipend

07:30 Emily: And so where did you do your Ph.D. and how much was your stipend when you started?

07:35 Jackie N: I did my PhD at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. And when I started out, Oh gosh, I have to think back, when I started my stipend was in the 35 to 40000 range. I can’t remember specifics, but it was relatively decent. Actually a big reason that I went there was lots of reasons that I pick my program, but it was helpful that Durham, North Carolina, did not have the same high cost of living as major cities like Philadelphia or Atlanta or other places that I was looking at. So that was a cost. You know, that was a driver for me. And as I’m sure it is, and what is for a lot of people. So that kind of went into my my decision making and leading up to starting with the PhD program, I definitely plan out the financial. It’s very uncertain what my outlook was going to look like.

Why Start a Side Hustle?

08:32 Emily: Okay. So it sounds like you prepared really well in that year that you had working to do to set yourself up again for starting the program and you said you started side hustling about halfway through. So what was the reason for it? Was it financial or were there other other factors?

08:45 Jackie N: Yeah. So I would say that there’s a couple of things. One of the, I guess both challenges and opportunities that I had was I was part of a national scholarship program that fully funded my tuition, have some funding for expenses like conference travel, provided extra mentorship, things like that. And in exchange for that, I completed my Ph.D. program in three years, actually, I did mine in two years and seven months, which is very chaotic. But it was good and was not crazy in the nursing field. I would say most people do their PhD between three and five years, a little bit more, a little bit less depending because you’re not in a lab, you’re not really working as an R.A. or TA as much as maybe in a STEM or humanities type of field by job. But all that to say that once I got through the first half of my program, which was very class oriented and I was, you know, really hunkering down during the semester and focusing on coursework, once I got through that and I was no more focused on my dissertation, I had a little bit more flexibility. I think I wanted more clinical experience because again, I’d only had about one year of full time clinical work and I had a really good friend who I was living with at the time and she is very passionate about the adolescents with severe eating disorders population and turned out there was a facility about 10 minutes from my apartment that she started working at and they were really actively hiring folks was right before COVID hit and I decided, okay, you know, if I can do this per diem and sort of make my own schedule so that I’m still, you know, obviously prioritizing my Ph.D. and finishing my dissertation, this might be a nice way to make some extra income. And further my clinical training, which even though I’m focused on the research side, I think having clinical experience to some degree have helped shape your way of thinking. So all of those things kind of came together and supported me in doing that. Then I say it was right before COVID because after I got hired about three months later, COVID hit, everything was remote. So I wasn’t driving back and forth to campus anymore, which saved me some time. So I was doing my Ph.D. kind of discussion work from home and then just driving 10 minutes in and 10 minutes home the next morning because I work night shift sort of on a schedule that I was able to to choose. And you, you know, all of those things kind of coincided, too, to allow me to continue.

Side Hustle Schedule

11:36 Emily: So it sounds like you were really thinking about the side hustle as part of your career progression as well. Yeah, although to me, when you said you completed your PhD in two years and and nine months, it was a bit shocking to hear that you also fit in a major side hustling position once you started really working on a dissertation. So we’re going to talk more about that in a moment. So you mentioned, you know, what your side hustle was, why you decided to pursue it. Can I ask maybe this is a silly question, but working the overnight shift, were you sleeping overnight or were you then sleeping during the day or like how did that aspect of it work?

12:12 Jackie N: So I would really plan my schedule based on what I had going on. So like for example, Monday mornings I was always meeting with my statistician to do the actual, actual quantitative findings from my dissertation. So I wasn’t working Sunday nights because I knew I had to meet with her every morning at not every Monday. So I was planning out my schedule a few weeks in advance based on when I knew that I had a meeting scheduled, I would block off time to work on my dissertation on my calendar and really only picked those nights that I knew I could sleep in the next morning. So I would work 7 p.m. to 7 a.m., get home, sleep until about noon or 1 p.m. and then wake up and kind of go about the rest of my day. The days after night shift were a little bit tricky, so I tried to use those days to get done work that didn’t involve as much brainpower. If you will catch up on emails, Maybe if I had like a paper that I was a coauthor on and I just had to look over it and provide edits, I could do that. But those were not my, like super heavy intellectual working and writing my dissertation days. I sort of staggered those so that I wasn’t doing that. I really only worked probably 2 to 4 nights per month, maybe a little bit more in the summer. But it ended up being about one or two nights a week, if that, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on schedule.

13:49 Emily: What I like about what you said about how you set this up and what I think is applicable to other people who might not be taking on night shifts for their, you know, side hustle or maybe managing it at a different time is how you kind of you said a week or two in advance you would sort of like theme the days like on this day I’m going to be doing my heavy thinking dissertation work, really doing analytical stuff on this day. I know I’m going to be doing lighter work for your reason. It was because your sleep schedule was a little bit disrupted, but for other people there may be other reasons do that just because they maybe learned their own natural energy to the week when they’re going to work best and whatnot. And this is something that I have, I did not learn as a student, but I have only learned as an entrepreneur that like it’s really helpful, I think, to literally the podcast that I listen to, it calls this theme days. So like in my business, I have days when I’m more focused on clients and days and I’m more focused on content and days where I’m focused on business operations and so I find it really helpful not to just be like at any moment I could be doing any work and it’s all top priority, you know, like I know what the priority is for the day. So I really like that about the schedule that you developed.

14:49 Jackie N: I would say looking back, you know, I don’t think I intended to do that originally, but I do think that taking that role on really how my time management skills because I didn’t have a choice and and that was something that, you know, set me up for for success down the line. It not only allowed me to kind of think about how I would approach my week and set up days with, you know, priorities for the day and what that focus was going to be. But it also set me up to be in a better position when I was going for postdocs and even just life in general. One thing I did mention was that I was also planning a wedding at the time, so so that was a huge help for that. It was a huge thing that allowed me to help pay down my student loans during the student loan pause when there was no interest accruing. So it ended up being an incredibly valuable experience and in a lot of ways that maybe I didn’t anticipate when I started.

15:51 Emily: Yeah, is there anything else that you want to kind of add about that? People don’t like the word balance anymore, but the way you worked between your dissertation, work your side hustle, your life, everything else, anything else you want to add about that?

16:06 Jackie N: I would just say that I think it required a lot of intention. I am very lucky that I had a supportive partner, but even if you don’t have a romantic partner, you know, having people that you can ask for help when things get a little bit chaotic and knowing your own limits and knowing like, let’s say someone who is going to pick up a shift, if I knew it was a really busy week, say, you know, I can’t do this. So knowing to ask for help, knowing when you need to back off certain things. And I agree. I mean, the word balance, I think is hard because it’s never like a 50/50 balance of anything. It’s sometimes this is going to take the priority. You know, sometimes I need to be focusing on finishing this dissertation chapter. Sometimes it’s going to be summer and I keep focus a little bit more on making extra money for my wedding? Things like so priorities shift and just being mindful and aware of that. You go along. It’s for me something that I still do. You know, I’m not in a [??] role anymore.

17:12 Emily: And I love that so much. It’s just another way to like sort of broaden your horizons and, you know, get outside of the academic setting and academic bubble through your work and you’re also making money the same time. It doesn’t hurt.

17:23 Jackie N: Which was really, really valuable. And, and one thing that I wish was maybe a little bit more normalized in nursing programs. There’s a little bit of a hush hush kind of policy of you’re not supposed to be working because you’re supposed to be focusing on your dissertation. But stipends are low and often don’t meet the cost of living. And it’s a little bit untenable to expect graduate students who have a very applicable set of skills to not be using them in cases when they’re able to.

Commercial

18:01 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2023-2024 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Side Hustle Policies

19:22 Emily: Let’s talk about that a little bit more. So like, was there an official policy either for your scholarship or in your program regarding side hustling?

19:32 Jackie N: Yes and no. It was a little bit of an honor system in general, I would say, at least in most research intensive programs. I don’t know about teaching or other programs. It’s a little bit kind of hush hush like you’re not supposed to outwardly say that you’re working clinically. You know, I never told my advisor until after I finished my dissertation. Now that she wouldn’t have been understanding, but just that I didn’t want to put myself in a position where I was potentially not being seen in a very positive light. And that’s that was hard. You know, I wanted to grow my skills and I got a lot out of that, like I said, influenced my career and my and my research. For my scholarship program. And we came in, they had told us, you know, you’re not supposed to work more than 20 hours a week, and 20 hours meaning in addition to your your your scholarship and your your studies. But a lot of times people were just not either following that or some universities will require their students, their students, to to pay for 25 hours a week during the semester. And then it becomes a conflict between the scholarship and the school. And you’re kind of caught in the middle. And that’s a really hard position to be in to. The other thing is that if you are, so that was the scholarship that I was a part of, that was through a private foundation called the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. It’s a very large health care foundation. I was not funded as a PhD student through NIH, National Institutes of Health. As a postdoc I am. NIH training grants that fund PhD students and postdocs have a limit that you are not allowed to work more than 10 hours per week outside of your funded scholarship work. And that’s, in my opinion, a little bit outdated because NIH also sets limits on what you are able to be paid annually. And so it was like, okay, you’re telling me this is how much money I’m going to be making and I can’t work more than this amount outside of this. So what am I supposed to do if I’m not meeting ends meet? Like it’s just is a little, and there’s ways I think to to kind of I don’t want to say get around it, but like for example, I was a co-investigator on a study and ended up doing the the brunt of the actual work in terms of we did qualitative interviews. I led a lot of the quantitative analysis and we ended up with an extra, I think like $500 on the grant. And it was just used to sort of compensate me for the additional labor that I took on. So that’s not like a quote getting around it like that. It’s perfectly legal, if you will, but there’s other situations in which that’s not a tenable way to exist as a PhD student or as a postdoc. And so I think that’s a big structural barrier that a lot of people are kind of calling on NIH to address.

23:13 Emily: What would you put forth as like your preferred policy? Like, would there not be a number, like a ceiling on outside work or like, Well, because we all like, I think everybody is in agreement that the Ph.D. work, the dissertation needs to be the number one priority. And the person, whether as a position or as a postdoc like, you know, be making progress towards whatever your goals are and whether it’s side hustling that has gotten in the way of that or whether it’s something else has gotten in the way of that, like the student or postdoc and the supervisor need to make sure that that person is still on track. So what should what should the language be?

23:47 Jackie N: That’s a good question. And I don’t know if I have a specific this is what it should be instead of this, but I do think that it should not be a one size fits all case because this is the case across all NIH, NIH has 27 institutes and centers and these students and all of those kind of areas of research look very, very different. And nursing is a great example, right? If we’re told you can’t work more than 10 hours a week outside of your scholarship postdoc work, well, nursing shifts are typically 12 hours in line. So you’re telling me I can’t pick up a 12 hour shift on a Saturday or Sunday when I’m working 40 hours Monday through Friday? Like that’s it just wasn’t designed with that in mind because it was designed to be a one size fits all case. So I think it’s about maybe tailoring some of these things for each discipline or each university or I think what I’m seeing just more broadly and a lot of college programs is mentor mentee sort of informal kind of contracts where each party, each mentor mentee kind of shares what that relationship is going to be like and what each person’s responsibilities are and creates an opportunity to come up with an individualized plan for your development as a scholar. And when those are in place, I think that does open the door to more conversations like, Hey, listen, advisor, I really need to make extra money. Not only, you know, because my stipend is as low as a student, but what about people who have kids or what are people who have aging parents or other kind of life things going on that that they need to be able to support, you know, those sorts of things I think need to be addressed because that’s what you’re bringing to the table, right? You don’t just exist in academia as a, as a person and have nothing outside of it. Like we are fully complex, complicated, messy humans. And we sort of are the total package that we are. And so I think just creating a little bit more flexibility in place because every student, every discipline is so vastly different.

Structural Barriers in Academia

26:13 Emily: Yeah, I’m starting to, as I’ve put more and more of my own focus on advocacy and not just on like the personal of personal finance. I’m seeing the finances of PhDs as a workforce development issue. And you kind of brought this up earlier, like who gets to do a Ph.D.? Who gets to the completion point of a Ph.D.? And the finances can play into this in terms of what populations even are able to pursue that. So can you talk a little bit more about that?

26:40 Jackie N: Absolutely. I think there are so many structural barriers that limit even who is able to get in the door in academia. And I have colleagues who are in the very position where they’re low income, have family in a different state or in some cases in a different country, oftentimes are trying to send money back home to support their low income families. Maybe not may not be able to afford a car, especially in a place like where I was in Durham. I had friends who they couldn’t afford to purchase a vehicle, which was hard because it’s a very car dependent place. You know, there wasn’t a ton of public transportation available. And so that impacts even the time it takes you to get to class and how long you you have to study and get stuff done maybe in the morning before classes or how long it takes to get home. And that’s just the timing takes away from other things that you could be doing, including your dissertation or assignments. Are there is the caregiver aspect that we just talked about. There’s so many things, plus the fact that, you know, this is a very low wage job because that’s what it is. It’s a full time job. You know, you’re still a student, but it’s work. And and there’s just so many people who I think we lose out on in all disciplines because they are not able to turn their lives upend their lives to complete the demands of a program. And there’s no resources in place to support so many of them.

Advocacy in Academia

28:29 Emily: So the side hustling could help, Right? Side hustling is a bit of a Band-Aid. Like ideally NIH, everybody else would just pay people enough that at least most situations you wouldn’t need a side hustle. Now, in your case, we just talked about side hustling had other advantages besides the financial and that’s awesome. So can you tell me, is there anything you’d like to add about how you advocate now for other PhD prepared nurses around being able to side hustle so they should they so choose.

28:55 Jackie N: Absolutely. I think, you know, I’m still in a postdoc role, but I do have students who I sort of informally mentor and like, for example, I work on on one project that is a clinical pathway. We support patients who are insured by Medicaid in discharging home from hospital, make sure they get the support resources they need so that they’re not readmitted. We have grad students who work on our data collection, who run our weekly case conference meetings, who do a lot of that labor. And I’m always, you know, encouraging them and watching them make sure you’re keeping track of your hours, make sure that you are submitting for all of the time that you are eligible to be paid, because we want you to get as much money as you as you are entitled to right like you’re signed on for 10 hours a week. Like make sure that you’re actually submitting those 10 hours per week. I am. I work a lot with trying to make sure that, let’s say when we hire doctoral students, research assistant, what is the maximum amount that we’re able to pay? And let’s pay them off because first of all, that’s grant money that needs to be spent anyway, number one. Number two, I know what it’s like to be in the position. I was in it very recently myself and so I would say a lot of that advocacy that I’m doing is just within my own kind of world and those students that I work with. But it’s also showed me a lot about the kind of mentor that I want to be, Let’s say when I have my own PhD student advisees. I want to make sure that I’m creating a culture where I know what my students needs are and they need to work to support that and support their families, then I’m going to work with them to make that happen. No matter what we need to do, we’re going to get it done. I think myself and a lot of other folks, anytime there’s like an NIH open comment period about how we support career postdoctoral trainees who are funded through NIH, I really make an effort to to comment on those sort of open forums and give examples of here’s what let’s say raising the stipend for each, let’s say first year, second year, third year each has its own kind of stipend, years of experience. Raising those that could help support so many things that actually contribute to better scholarship because you’re not spending ten, 20 hours a week doing this other work. So that’s part of it. I will also say that, you know, this was not my case, but I know folks who were in student unions as students, I will say in one case in a major cities like New York and L.A., where cost of living is super high, it’s actually a little bit of a disadvantage if you want to get an NIH doctoral funding award because the stipends for that would be lower than what you would get as a stipend just by being a physician at the university. And so that’s a barrier because getting those awards sets you up to be competitive for postdocs and faculty candidates. And so that’s creating space to dismantle some of those structural barriers that prevent people from even entering academia in the first place and then developing the best science that they can.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

32:23 Emily: Love it, Jackie. I think we need to leave it there. The hour has flown, so I want to ask you the last question that I ask. Of all my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early career? It could be something that we’ve touched on in the interview already, or it could be something completely new.

32:39 Jackie N: I would say the best advice that I can give to anyone financially going to a PhD program is just to plan as much as you can for the years ahead. You know, you’re in a PhD program, you’re already going to be, you know, I think I don’t think there’s been a PhD student who’s never been stressed out. So you’re already going to be stressed out about figuring out your dissertation, finishing your coursework, getting all the things that you need to to to get your degree. You know, you don’t want to be stressed about finances, too. I think when I first entered my PhD program, I was so I need to know exactly what my dissertation question is going to be because I’m on this three year track and I don’t know what I’m going to do, how I’m going to have enough time. I wish I hadn’t been so focused on that and I had, you know, more so narrowed my focus. I mean I did to some extent, but just planning out and budgeting. Okay, what realistically is my income going to be? How can I save up as much as I can and prepare to not have this be a stressor when I’m in the midst of everything else? And that also includes knowing, you know, sorry, but that also includes knowing about what life is with taxes as a PhD student, because it’s very, very different than I expected. So just knowing what to expect, I think, again, your your website and your your content and your podcast is a great way to support incoming PhD students. So just the preparation involved is what I would say.

34:14 Emily: Well, Jackie, I love that advice. It’s been so wonderful to talk with you and thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast.

34:20 Jackie N: Of course. Thank you for having me.

Outtro

34:27 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.