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Why and How These Grad Students Purchased Homes

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In this episode, Emily presents first-person stories from grad students who bought homes during grad school. The volunteers were simply asked to share their stories of home ownership, whatever they may be. You’ll hear from three volunteers throughout this episode, both on how they purchased their homes but also what’s happened since then, the benefits and the challenges. Perhaps you’ll be inspired to pursue home ownership yourself sooner rather than later. The final person included in this episode is a mortgage originator specializing in early-career PhDs, who summarizes why graduate students and anyone paid by fellowship have a difficult time securing a mortgage and his system for framing them as qualified borrowers.

Links mentioned in the Episode

grad student home ownership

Teaser

00:00 Courtney B: Owning a house is all about the long game. We hope to see large returns on the remodeling and roofing work once we sell, but for now we have to be willing to put a decent amount of cash down for deductibles, emergencies and our new monthly loan payment.

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.

00:47 Emily: This is Season 15, Episode 2, and today we’re featuring first-person stories from grad students who bought homes during grad school. I simply asked the volunteers to share their stories of home ownership, whatever they may be. You’ll hear from three volunteers throughout this episode, both on how they purchased their homes but also what’s happened since then, the benefits and the challenges. Perhaps you’ll be inspired to pursue home ownership yourself sooner rather than later. The final person included in this episode is a mortgage originator specializing in early-career PhDs, who summarizes why graduate students and anyone paid by fellowship often have a difficult time securing a mortgage and his system for framing them as qualified borrowers.

01:32 Emily: By the way, there is still time to volunteer for one of the compilation episodes coming up later in the summer, specifically the episode on unions and unionization movements. If you have a story to share on that topic from the last few years, please email me at [email protected].

01:52 Emily: This next announcement is specifically for those of you who are applying to PhD programs in the US in the upcoming academic year. If you’re not in that group, please share this information with someone who is! On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 10:00 AM Pacific Time, I’m delivering a free webinar titled “Don’t Accept Admission to a PhD Program without a Sufficient Stipend.” Yes, this is something you need to understand and commit to even before you start applying to PhD programs! The three phases of this webinar are to go over why you need to be sufficiently financially supported in your PhD program and what that means to you; how you can ensure that you will be; and what actions you need to take in the fall during application season, in the spring during admissions season, and in the summer before you matriculate to make this come about. This webinar includes what I wish I had known as a prospective graduate student and the hidden financial curriculum of academia that it’s taken me over a decade to uncover. It’s so vitally important for prospective graduate students to have this information early, which is why I’m giving it away for free! Please help me spread the word! Anyone interested can register for the webinar at PFforPhDs.com/sufficientstipend/.

03:20 Emily: You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s15e2/. Without further ado, here’s our compilation episode on home ownership.

Hannah Stroud, PhD Student: College Station, TX

03:37 Hannah S: Hi, my name is Hannah Stroud. I am a final year PhD student at Texas a and m University, uh, which is located in College Station, Texas. College Station, Texas is a city with a extremely low cost of living compared to other areas of this country, uh, which is pretty much the only reason that I am here sharing my home ownership story with you today. , I guess I started my PhD in 2020 and purchased my house in March of 2021, and I had been a grad student before that and had been living in college station since 2014, so I’ve been here a while. Uh, and the low cost of living in this area in general allowed me to save a pretty substantial amount of my stipend just comparatively. So in my master’s, I think I was paying like six 50 in rent, uh, per month, uh, which meant that a decent portion of my stipend could go to fun activities or savings in general.

04:37 Hannah S: Um, how I grew my savings was through a robo-advisor managed, uh, money market account and also ETF investments. Um, and that was really helpful in kind of just turning what I had saved into enough to be able to afford a down payment. Uh, and so when I started the kind of mortgage lending process, um, in the first month of my PhD, so I am a fellowship student, which means my income is not w2 and I’m a NSF GFP fellow, which means that my intimate income is guaranteed for three years. So when I started my mortgage process, uh, that was important to my lender. What I didn’t realize is that when my mortgage rates were locked in, uh, they wanted my three years of employment to be verified from the time of closing. So when I closed six months later, I actually ran into some issues, uh, where my lender wanted some way to guarantee that I would be employed at the same salary that I’m currently making, uh, for three full years, not the two and a half that I could promise based on the time that had elapsed.

05: 43 Hannah S: Um, so I ended up needing to increase my down payment to the full 20% so that I didn’t have to qualify for private mortgage insurance anymore. But ultimately, the main aspect of my home ownership story is truly luck. Uh, I’m very fortunate to live in a very low cost of living city, and the timing of the pandemic honestly played a lot into the house prices being very low and mortgage rates being what they were. So given the current environment, I don’t know that a lot of this advice is incredibly applicable, uh, but advice that does stay the same is the, if you have non W2 income, it is important to learn from your desired lender. What aspects of your income are important to them, and if three years of proof of income will be required from the time of closing, it’s been a fun experience overall.

06:41 Hannah S: Ultimately, owning is significantly more expensive than renting because when things break, I am my own landlord and I get to fix them, and sometimes those expenses are more significant than I would like them to be. Uh, within the first kind of few months of owning my home, uh, both the washer and dryer that came out, the house broke, and so I needed to replace those. Um, and I found out that my non-mobile house had a mobile home shower installed in it, and all the plastic parts were degrading, so I needed to, uh, replace all that with copper piping and plumbers are expensive, and then any electrical issues become your problem, AC issues become your problem. So definitely get the home warranty. Uh, if you can include that in the conditions of closing and ha have it be something that the seller pays for, I would recommend that highly. And then I renewed it for a second year as well, cuz my air conditioning unit was pretty old. Um, and that ended up being the right choice for me just because the, the amount of maintenance that I required on, on that particular utility was, was significant in the second year as well. So yeah, hopefully you have as good of luck on your journey as I’ve had online and yeah, good luck going forward.

H, PhD Student: East Coast

08:00 Emily: This submission is from “H”, a PhD student who lives on the East Coast. Quote. I had a vague plan to buy my place in my second or third year of my program, but it ended up happening in a surprising and rushed way when a house came up right in my neighborhood, I had something like a month to close, which I did in August, 2020 at the beginning of the second year of my program. My income has increased since I got the house, so the monthly payment, including mortgage insurance and property tax, is now a little less than a third of my post-tax income. Initially it was closer to 40%. Having roommates in various configurations has offset between 25% and 65% of my payment at any one time. But there have also been months between roommates where I’ve been covering the whole amount. I’ve had kind of a revolving door of housemates, which has been a lovely part of having my house.

08:49 Emily: So far it’s been friends or friends of friends, almost all grad students because my roommates and I, I have so far always been gone for the summer, I rented out for more like 85% of the mortgage to people doing summer internships. Here it offsets the fact that my July and August stipend payment is lower than my 10 month academic year stipend payment. I charge less than market rent because I’m not a professional landlord and I don’t have a property manager. The house is old and not in perfect shape. When I’ve had water in the basement, a broken water heater or a broken window, people have been understanding and patience since I’m not charging a lot, I’m also able to undercharge because I have a financial safety net. My parents lent me almost all of the deposit and I won’t start paying them back until I finished my program.

09:33 Emily: Their justification was that they had paid the same amount for my siblings law school. We’ll pay them back interest free. I would’ve been able to get a place on my own, but it would’ve been smaller and I would’ve bought later. The fact that I have a financial safety net has made being a homeowner less stressful. I haven’t had to ask my parents for money for repairs so far, but I can sleep at night knowing I’d be able to borrow money from them if I urgently needed a new roof or something. I love having an old house, but because of the upkeep, I think it would be too stressful to own one without that kind of cushion. It was very much a pandemic home purchase. I remember reading all these articles in 2020 and 2021 about people who are desperate for more space when working from home and how they had overpaid for falling apart houses.

10:17 Emily: I was like, oh my God, is that me? Now with the interest rates up, the news is all about people who lucked out with 2% interest rates like me, and now their incentive is just to never sell. Sometimes I think about how my mortgage on the house is twice what I was paying for a one bedroom apartment and how I spent money on repairs and my bills are much higher than in the apartment. And I wonder what would’ve happened if I had plugged the difference into an index fund instead. But if the house has increased in value, as much as Zillow says the house wins out as an investment, obviously you have to take Zillow with a grain of salt. I think only time will tell whether this was a good financial decision or not, regardless of whether it turns out to have been a good investment.

10:55 Emily: I have so many great memories of this house. I love having space to host and being able to provide a gathering place, especially in the pandemic. When I hosted people from out of town who needed a break from being isolated alone in their apartments. I’ve loved becoming closer to my housemates. I’ve had friends stay in the house when their family were visiting from abroad and needed a place to stay. I feel happy that the house has helped people out with somewhere to stay when other solutions were expensive and logistically difficult. I’ve loved being able to host my family, especially at the holidays. A lot of this would just not be possible if I were renting. I know that buying a house is normally seen as tying you down, but for me, I think it’s given me the freedom to be mobile. Having the house has allowed me to be pretty flexible during the latter part of my program, which requires research abroad.

11:40 Emily: I offset the monthly payment by renting it out so I don’t feel like I’m obligated to stay there just because I’m paying for it. When I’ve worked abroad on a job that included housing or got grants that covered my housing while researching, I’ve been able to save a good amount of money, money by reducing my housing expenses, but I also didn’t need to formally move out and I know I can come back whenever because there’s still a spare room compared to having to deal with paying for storage and finding a place during awkward lease gaps. I’m able to be much more of a free agent than other people I know Doing dissertation research abroad, it’s just one of the many ways that being financially secure makes the experience of being a grad student dramatically less stressful. I think it’s important to recognize that my financial privilege and home ownership, along with my citizenship, have given me greater research capacities. I’m not sure what I’ll end up doing with a house after I leave the program. I might rent it out on a more formal basis or if I decide to buy elsewhere, I might sell. End quote.

Courtney Beringer, PhD Student: Corvallis, OR

12:37 Emily: This next submission is from Courtney Beringer, who was previously interviewed on this podcast in season 10, episode 18.

12:45 Courtney B: My name is Courtney and I’m a third year PhD student in civil engineering at Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon. Uh, I recorded a podcast with Emily shortly after I bought a house in 21, so I’ll briefly talk about that and dive into what has happened since then. I bought a house with my friend in July, 2021 in Corvallis, Oregon for about $250,000. It’s a three bedroom, two bath with an additional room that we converted into a bedroom. My co borrower and I live in the house along with our two tenants. Our mortgage is about $1,500 a month, and our rental income is, uh, $1,300 a month. Um, we were patient and took months to find a house that met our needs of being within about five miles of campus. Um, had rooms we could rent out and was under our budget of about $320,000. Our loan process was made, uh, a little complicated by having co borrowers who were not related or married.

13:50 Courtney B: And because we were both grad students with changing sources of income throughout the year, we worked with our loan officer through these hurdles and everything actually turned out great. It has now been two years as homeowners and with tenants. Uh, it has been great to have a passive side income through renters. We have enjoyed the freedom that home ownership has provided, uh, but home ownership is always unpredictable. We had a water heater leak in January this year, which caused my co-owner one of our tenants and I to live in a hotel for two months while demo and construction occurred in my room and our shared bathroom insurance covered so much. But this took a lot of time out of our studies and lives to move, make remodeling decisions and coordinate with contractors, and we just got a roof place, which added a $13,000 loan to our joint finances. Owning a house is all about the long game. We hope to see large returns on the remodeling and roofing work once we sell, but for now, we have to be willing to put a decent amount of cash down for deductibles, emergencies, and our new monthly loan payment. Uh, I hope my story gives you a sense of the joys and realities of being a homeowner.

Commercial

15:07 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2023-2024 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Anonymous, PhD Student: Atlanta, GA

16:26 Emily: This submission is from an anonymous contributor. When they mentioned Sam in the course of this contribution, they’re referring to Sam Hogan, a mortgage originator specializing in early career PhDs. And we’re actually gonna hear from Sam next

16:39 Emily: Quote. I purchased a home during the spring semester of my first year as a PhD in Atlanta, Georgia. I closed in April, 2023. I have been debating home ownership since 2020. I would be entering graduate school in my early thirties, so I wanted to try and build wealth so that I wouldn’t be too far behind in retirement savings or net worth. When I finished in my late thirties, my parents were not convinced that buying was the right move. So when I moved back home to Atlanta to start school, I ended up renting a beautiful old studio. But in January of spring semester, when I was informed that rent would be going up $200, I realized that I was ready to buy and that I needed it to happen fast.

17:18 Emily: I tried several different mortgage lenders, but most were rather confused by the stipend structure. I would get pre-approved based upon my credit score and lack of debt, but then would always receive several follow-up emails asking for documents from my university, asking for verification and explanations. I turned to Sam fairly early on, just asked him questions and then ended up going back to work with him after the other lenders didn’t work out. I received my pre-approval from Movement Mortgage with no follow-up questions and began house hunting. In late January, maybe eight or nine bids later, I finally landed on a home, not a condo, which had been my original call, but HOAs kept blowing my budget in late March with a closed date in early April. For a moment, there was a bout of panic because the house has an unfinished primary suite and we, Sam, my realtor and myself, didn’t know if it would pass appraisal the suite, huge bedroom, bathroom closet was essentially a bonus room or a garage.

18:11 Emily: The outside structure was finished, but there was nothing else. No drywall, no electric, nothing. Ultimately, the house passed appraisal, the seller contributed to closing and Sam even managed to get me a few hundred dollars back at closing. Looking back, this story sounds really straightforward, but it was super stressful. I also switched realtors during this process and I wish that I had done so earlier. I was also saving between $800 and a thousand dollars a month between January and April to make the down payment, and also ended up basically emptying my investment account and my Roth ira, both of which had less than $2,000 in them. I put 3% down on a home that was less than $200,000 a total steal in Atlanta. All in all, I’m glad that none of the other bids worked out. This home is spacious, has a lovely yard, is in a great location, and the unfinished primary suite will multiply the value of the home.

19:01 Emily: Of course, the house will need a lot of work, but I have a roommate and we’re both excited to get our hands dirty. My biggest piece of advice is to remember that the people who help you purchase your home need to advocate for you. Sam is a phenomenal advocate and helped me get into my first home and stopped at nothing to make the sale work. The realtor who I ended up working with was also an amazing communicator, and I wish that I had been working with him the entire time. Of course, save money and do your research, but remember that the people on your team matter. End quote.

Sam Hogan, Mortgage Originator

19:36 Sam H: Greetings. This is Sam Hogan. I help graduate students, postdocs and PhDs achieve home ownership in all 50 states. We’ve closed hundreds of loans for PhD students and postdocs. They have a unique, uh, income set and require unique mortgage approval process. Um, having done this for over four years now, we are the nation’s only lender that focuses on your success while you’re getting your degrees in higher education. My team is a longstanding advertiser and sponsor of PF for PhDs, and I am delighted to also be Emily’s little brother. So Emily reached out to me in, um, spring 2019, um, having seen a pattern of difficulties for PhD students, um, closing on home loans.

20:29 Sam H: The issue with PhD income is that the loan officer in the pre-approval stage will either pre-approve them and not do enough work themselves or deny them out the gate. Now, when an underwriter sees the PhD income after loan offer, pre, pre-approved them, them, it might not have enough information about the stability and continuance in history, and you also can be issued a denial because the underwriter doesn’t have to give you a final approval based on those offer letters. Um, after some a few months of investigating, we developed a system to properly document the income, the continuance, and the stability. Um, regardless of how soon or how late you are in your PhD stipend continuance, where I come in is demonstrating that the borrower who’s a PhD student has always been a full-time student, has always maintained a good gpa, has a track record of staying in the same field of science or research.

21:34 Sam H: We do have to over document a file sometimes to demonstrate continuance, but even if we have less than three years, we are able to help the underwriters understand the quality of individual behind this stipend income, which has helped us become successful in closing loans in this space. I will rescue PhD deals every single month. This happens often with, uh, new construction builders and their lender is completely unfamiliar. Or some other companies like, um, loan Depot for example, will just outright never accept stipend income. So those clients will read my reviews or, uh, find Emily’s blog where we give a little bit more of in depth information on how it works. Um, I’ll connect with them and they will become homeowners and protect their deposit, have a more stress-free approval working with us versus a lender. Loan officers. Not, not familiar. When we originally started helping PhD students and post-docs become homeowner, homeowners, we were more comfortable with having three years of continuance.

22:42 Sam H: So at the early years or maybe before your first semester of becoming a PhD student, that was our, um, bread and butter easy approvals with confirming that income. As we’ve done more PhDs and expanding to more states, we’ve actually seen some success helping PhDs who are in their later stipend years, years four, five, sometimes six. Um, so really we just need to make sure that we can show history and continuance. Even if you’re stipend might be ending in a few months, we can still help you. We just like to show the career field that you’re going into and some other details about your career path and your future successes. A lot of home buyers in this market are not excited about taking higher than a 5% rate, and I wanted to just encourage people that it is much more difficult to find the home than to get a mortgage on it. So we say in our industry, marry the house date the rate. Once you’ve found your home and rates improve, you’ll be able to refinance and lower your payments and lower your total interest paid. What you don’t want to do is wait for rates to get a little bit lower and then the market is flooded with buyers and you have more competition searching for that same home.

24:03 Sam H: Having to read originated loans for seven years working with the PhD community just makes my life such a breeze. Everyone is very responsive, calm, cool, and collective. They understand what I’m talking about and they’re willing to listen to me explain a little bit extra about the home buy-in process so they can have a better understanding of it. Unfortunately, there’s not a lot of standard education on how to buy a home or how to get a mortgage, but that’s okay because you have people like myself who are willing to take the time to help you understand and find success in this space. But working with the PhD community has been, um, so wonderful over the last four years. I I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Having to having clients who, um, are attentive to your requests. I, I will say well qualified, a good, good credit scores and goal oriented. If you’re committing, uh, five or six years to a new area and you don’t wanna waste five or six years worth of rent, you know, please reach out to myself. The best number to reach me is 540-478-5803. Um, and I’m looking forward to hearing from you. Happy hunting.

25:14 Emily: I host monthly. Ask me anything with Sam. So if you’d like to meet him and ask a question about mortgages or the home buying process, please register for our next one pfforphds.com/mortgage.

Outtro

25:32 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Why and How These Graduate Students Side Hustle

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In this episode, Emily presents first-person stories from grad students who side hustle. The volunteers were asked this set of questions: What is your motivation for having a side hustle? What is your side hustle? What are its benefits and detriments? How much do you earn through your side hustle? If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started? You’ll hear from eight volunteers in total throughout this episode, and perhaps be inspired to start or expand your own side hustle.

Links mentioned in the Episode

Grad student side hustles

Teaser

00:00 Anonymous #1: Some places might give you entirely free housing. Some places might be like mine where you get like a 50% off for your housing rate. I find it to be beneficial because that’s money that I get to keep for myself that I can invest in my Roth IRA that can be used for my own spending, that can use for a traveling for leisure, because we know we get started as graduate students. So it’s really important that I take breaks and have that extra money so that I can invest for my future and take those much needed breaks

Introduction

00:33 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 15, Episode 1, and today we’re featuring first-person stories from grad students who side hustle. The volunteers were asked this set of questions: What is your motivation for having a side hustle? What is your side hustle? What are its benefits and detriments? How much do you earn through your side hustle? If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started? You’ll hear from eight volunteers in total throughout this episode, and perhaps be inspired to start or expand your own side hustle.

01:34 Emily: By the way, there is still time to volunteer for one of the compilation episodes coming up later in the summer, specifically the episode on negotiating your individual grad student stipend and the episode on unions and unionization movements. If you have a story to share on either of those topics from the last few years, please email me at [email protected].

01:59 Emily: I’m beyond excited to announce that I’m offering a brand-new live one-hour seminar titled “How to Not Hate Your Fellowship During Tax Season.” It’s all about how to understand and properly handle your fellowship stipend that will not be reported on a Form W-2, which is what I call awarded income. Awarded income typically doesn’t have income tax withheld from it, which can become an unwelcome surprise and even financial hardship if the recipient is not taught what to do starting with their first paycheck of this type. In addition to teaching about estimated tax and self-withholding, I give pointers for preparing for and navigating tax season with awarded income. This seminar is intended to be taken during orientation or shortly after by people who are switching onto awarded income for the first time, so it will be exclusively available between August and October of this year. If you are starting on awarded income in the fall and your university doesn’t withhold income tax—or you’ve dealt with that scenario in the past—would you please recommend this seminar to your fellowship coordinator, program head, or graduate school? Please cc me [email protected] so I can pick up the conversation. My goal is for every grad student receiving awarded income to be forewarned about this issue before it rears its ugly head during tax season!

03:29 Emily: You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s15e1/. Without further ado, here’s our compilation episode on side hustling.

Shan Kutagulla: Technology Incubator

03:46 Shan K: My name is Shan Kutagulla at the University of Texas at Austin. I’m getting my doctorate here. I have a masters and did my bachelor’s at USC in Southern California. I do materials research for semiconductor and energy. Energy topics.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

04:08 Shan K: Yeah, my motivation for side hustling, I think like everyone else is to make a little extra cash. But in addition to that, it’s trying to get some skills that I wouldn’t necessarily get in the lab. I think for me as an engineer, I think soft skills are always going to be one of those things that engineers tend to either stereotypically or realistically lack.

What is your side hustle?

04:29 Shan K: So I work for my campus’s technology incubator, so that involves a lot of interviewing people, talking to founders of companies. So that really helps develop a lot of soft skills and then also gives me exposure to the business side of things. So it’s a little kind of rounding out the skill set in addition to making making some cash, which is always, always needed in grad school.

04:54 Shan K: So it’s through the school UT is I think one of a couple of universities has like technology incubator associated with it. So if any, any graduate student or any or founder really has a good idea that they kind of want to commercialize those, take research and spin it out into into the real world. So that the issue with that is a lot of people start applying to those positions or applying to the incubator to have their company incubated and they need someone to kind of bridge that gap between the technical side of things, which is just is this technology legitimate versus the business side of things, which is will this technology survived the competitive landscape.

05:35 Shan K: So this is something through UT that I applied for because I have an interest in going into like technical due diligence in the venture capital industry upon graduation. So it kind of helped you build that skill set. But I got this through just a relentlessly applying. I actually got rejected four times in a row and I got it on my fifth try.

05:53 Shan K: So it’s just an exercise in persistence or knowing someone I don’t really know, but I but either way, it worked out and it’s a really fulfilling position, I would say. And it’s just like a one of a couple of things that I do on the side to get some extra cash.

What are its benefits and detriments?

06:11 Shan K: Yeah, I mean, drawbacks are always going to be like the time, right? Any time, especially in grad school, any time you do a side hustle, it’s time taken away from research, especially if you ask some professors, thankfully not mine.

06:23 Shan K: And then, I mean, benefits always just be like the people you meet. Networking is a huge part of grad school, I would say opens a lot of doors as I would definitely say one of the things people warned me about grad school is that it closes a lot of doors and they can’t do anything else. I don’t necessarily think that’s true. It’s open a lot more doors and I had before and it’s a lot of people I just would not have met without applying to these these side hustle positions like I get to talk to The leader, the technical director of the incubator directly on a weekly basis. I talked to the president at university every now and then a lot of people in industry, academia, I get to help define mission roadmaps. I was invited to do an article on semi analysis. None of that would have been possible without without a side hustle. And so it’s been very, very fulfilling.

07:14 Shan K: But yeah, the cons would just be the time commitment really. So if you can make your own schedule with a side hustle, that’s probably a huge benefit that I didn’t necessarily have. But those are the pros cons that that you’ve got to weigh. So maybe that’s that’s some other advice that I have. Just do something that you really enjoy. Don’t don’t take positions that would just be incredibly bored in. And don’t find any fulfillment in.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

07:39 Shan: This one actually only pays 15 an hour. I work for a startup too, one of the start-ups that we have right now on pay is much better. It’s like 40 an hour. So yeah, but again, one of those doors that’s open that allowed me to go work at a startup, right.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

07:54 Shan K: Every major city has a technology incubator Los Angeles where where I went to undergrad has Los Angeles and Los Angeles Clean Tech incubator, Austin Technology Incubator in Austin Obviously Boston has a bunch. So like if you’re in one of these major cities where they exist, just go Google who the director is of your respective verticals if you’re interested in energy, semiconductor, whatever. Google them, find their email surprisingly easy to stalk online.

08:24 Shan K: Just email them and be like, Hey, I’m a grad student, especially if you’re trying to do technical due diligence, email them and be like, Hey, I’m a grad student. This university interested in technical due diligence because a lot of times those incubators are staffed with like business people who have a lot of business experience, but they don’t really necessarily do technical due diligence, which is a very specific role that only PhDs can really fill. And then that’s why you see it a lot of like hard tech investing firms like Kleiner Perkins, it’s always staffed by PhDs on due diligence. It’s just to avoid if they’re in a situation and there’s there’s not that many people who can do that. So they’d probably be very willing to take your help and don’t be afraid to work for free for like a couple of months, but then you can kind of push on them.

Anonymous #1: Graduate Housing Community Assistant

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

09:10 Anonymous #1: So I am a pre doctoral student at University of Rochester. I’m a second year and my motivation is really based on seeing how much my parents were able to save or their parents are immigrants. And so I’ve seen them working very hard on my life and not getting the most pay. But I also want to make sure that I’m setting myself up for financial freedom in the future so that I can, you know, as lofty as it is nowadays on a home one day as well as save my retirement. And so those are my biggest goals. I want to set myself up for a positive future financially.

What is your side hustle?

10:17 Anonymous #1: So my side hustle is working with my university’s graduate housing department. Through them, I work as community assistant, so I get to not only socialize with people that are also going to my graduate school, but I also get a very good deal on my rent. I get about half off for my rent and it really does help considering how much rent has skyrocketed in the past couple of years.

10:44 Anonymous #1: Like all across the country, especially in New York State, it’s just gone up. It used to be that you could get a studio for under 800 across the board in this area and now that is no longer the norm. You have to be outside of the city. And because I want to live as close campus as possible, I decided to go for this position with graduate housing because I knew for me and my schedule didn’t make my commute easy as possible was in my best interest.

11:17 Anonymous #1: Coming from a major city, I knew commute can be 45 minutes plus on public transit. I was not willing to do that for my Ph.D. because I need to focus on my studies. So what if I to do this? It’s and it’s very relatively easy. I’m doing an A one event per month and a meeting here and there, introducing people to the right to resources that the university has. So for the money I’m getting off of my rent, it is it’s a very sweet gig.

What are its benefits and detriments?

11:43 Anonymous #1: So the main benefit is the financial discount that I get on a rent, I get half off for my rent charges. So that’s the biggest benefit. I also get to socialize more and meet other people in my community. Moving to a new city. I did not know anyone here, so I was able to use this as a way to socialize with other people at my graduate school. I would say that if you do have the opportunity to be a graduate housing assistant, I would highly recommend it. If you’re someone that likes planning events then and interact with people, I’d highly recommend it. It’s not something that I that I find to be very tedious.

12:21 Anonymous #1: Some places might give you entirely free housing. Some places might be like mine where you get like a 50% off for your housing rate. I find to be beneficial because that’s money that I get to keep for myself that I can invest in my Roth IRA that can be used for my own spending, that can use for a traveling for leisure, because we know we get started as graduate students. So it’s really important that I take breaks and have that extra money so that I can invest for my future and take those much needed breaks. Because I’m on a training grant so I can’t like have a job or an hourly wage. So this is like, ah, this is my way of going around that. So I have to abide by the PhD rules, but also I need to live my life.

13:06 Anonymous #1: Some of the drawbacks are just the logistics of hosting an event, having people turn out thinking and brainstorming new ideas that are both interesting to busy PGD and master’s students, but also attainable for me as a as another busy Ph.D. student to test, to schedule and plan for. So those are like the biggest cons that I could think of.

13:35 Anonymous #1: I really do enjoy like event planning, and if I wasn’t interested in STEM, I might have gone down this route because making sure that I check off all my boxes and doing things in a very organized manner is something I really enjoy doing. And yeah, those are the only those are the only drawbacks. I really enjoy this position and it’s not very difficult for me. I am a social person, so meeting people, introducing them to the to the grad housing area is not something I think of as a hardship.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

14:04 Anonymous #1: For this year, for 2022, 23, I’m getting a rent reduction of $555 every month. I have a one bedroom apartment and the rent reduction is a flat rate for all graduate housing assistance. And so I think they calculated based off of a to a two bedroom apartment. But I have a one bedroom and I get charged $944. So I’m paying less than $400 for my rent every month, which without roommates, no one that I know has that that charge at all. And I only work about 10 hours per month in total, I’d say in terms of planning, brainstorming and hosting events, the events only last 1 to 2 hours, depending on how many people are there. And so I guess the hourly rate that I calculated based off of that is $55 per hour.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

15:00 Anonymous #1: So the first thing I would look into is if your university does offer graduate housing, not every university does offer on campus graduate housing. So looking into that first and then once you do find out that your university does offer it next thing I would do is look to see if they have any job openings. Usually those job openings will be posted sometimes throughout the semester, but primarily during the move in and move out periods around the summer and winter time, depending on how university work. If you’re on the quarter system or on like a semester system that could also be dependent on when they post those job openings. But because grad students will graduate in December is often going to be opportunities for people to get these positions. And then once you do find out when they tend to post positions, email the contact person so that one they know you’re aware and two that you’re actually very interested in the position and gives a bit more of a of a of an idea. I think when they’re looking at your application, they’ll recognize that, oh, this person emailed me several, several weeks ago saying that they were interested and they scheduled an informational interview with me to go over the, the requirement for the position that’ll sort of put you in their mind, which is something that I did to me to sort of better ensure that I got the position because I very much wanted it.

16:20 Anonymous #1: And then going through the regular interview process. And if you do have any skills in terms of event planning or a previous housing related occupation or internship or or what have you. That will also better you for being chosen for the position.

Ariana: Pet Sitting

16:20 Ariana: My name is Ariana. I’m a fifth year Ph.D. candidate, the University of Virginia, and I live in Charlottesville, Virginia.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

16:58 Ariana: So my motivation for side hustling is the obvious one. Money. I’m I was really in need of some supplemental income especially as I my program fifth year the time a lot of applications of preparing for a big move coming up so it was that and also trying to think about what I could be doing as a side hustle for the longer term.

What is your side hustle?

17:21 Ariana: My side hustle is pet sitting. Primarily dogs and cats, but I am open to a range of other animals.

What are its benefits and detriments?

17:28 Ariana: So there are so many benefits, but also some considerations of pet sitting. First is that I love animals and as a person who has a cat not a dog, it’s nice to be around dog energy and just get to meet very sweet animals around my community and honestly see places I haven’t seen before. So I’m walking them around and all that. It’s also a pretty flexible gig. I mean, usually things settle around weekends and on breaks, but as a graduate student, especially in my later years, it’s been nice to be like, okay, I’ll go do a midday walk or something like that. It’s also a job that again, it’s flexible in the nature that if I don’t want to do it for a month, I could not do it and that would be okay. I’m my own boss in that sense, and there are apps that help you to find people and vet them and give you all the support you need.

18:20 Ariana: Drawbacks are definitely that like I’ve been dissertating and even with the flexibility of like it’s been hard sometimes and it can definitely become an unintentional or intentional avoidance strategy to be with pets. It’s also time away from my apartment, my home so a lot of the chores and things that need to get done often have to be delayed because I’m spending weekends with other people’s pets and I kind of like that too. So those are some of the consider.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

18:54 Ariana: My earnings can really range depending on how committed I am to getting things done. I think it would be possible to get about 25, like if I would just walk, for example, 25 to $50 weekly, it’s only really do 200 a month, but house sitting or pet sitting where I’m staying with them, that can look more like 500 or so dollars a month if I’m doing every single weekend. And that’s another consideration. It’s not the most I’m not flowing in money rather like it is a lot of time. But those like additional benefits, getting to walk outside, having to play with the pets kind of adds to the compensation for me.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

19:41 Ariana: If you want to be a pet sitter, it’s actually easier than I knew. So I was recommended by my cousin who is a lab technician. But there are apps like Wag and Rover which have a really streamlined system for getting you involved. I mean, I’d recommend, of course, having some comfort with pets, but you can get reviews or sort of testimonials from family members and friends and other folks who you may be pet for on the regular. I would say that’s where I started. I was doing more just ad hoc pet sitting for other grad school friends and then really expanded into this, I would say to just be thoughtful about what you’re comfortable with. You don’t have to sit at people’s houses, but I feel pretty comfortable doing that because of all these safety measures are in place and people are really folks who want someone to care for their dog, kind of wants you to feel comfortable as well. So I would say those are the quickest ways. So I’m sure they’re, you know, you can advertise your services on a neighborhood group or something like that and get some direct referrals.

20:48 Ariana: I was going to say that’s another drawback of the piece. So doing the apps I would say is a great starting step because you get screened, you build up your reputation, but they can take about, you know, if I charge $17 for a walk, I’ll probably get 13 of those dollars. So I can’t do the percentages really quickly. I’m not a math PhD, but it’s notable. And so when you do that over time, something like that and it’s not nothing. So but what I found, which I appreciated is after like one successful stay, a lot of folks are okay with going off the app, and just paying me directly. And likewise, like I trust them and I’m comfortable just reaching out. I have all the information that I need. So while I think it’s an upfront cost, it doesn’t have to be a continuous cost. Just you’re trying to get a lot of clients.

21:43 Ariana: I wish I’d started earlier, with the side hustle, I mean, it’s really hard when your schedule’s more packed with things, but I think it’s the type of side hustle that is really relationship and community based and can be a good way to get integrated into a place that as a grad student I know I was like in my room or studying in the building. So that was really nice. And I would say that it’s not it’s actually kind of a nice little mini retreat, You know, I can be in someone else’s home or space with WiFi working on things, and that’s been kind of nice too.

H: College Consulting

22:29 Emily: This submission is from H a fifth year humanities PhD candidate on the east coast whose stipend is $40,000 per year.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

22:37 Emily: Quote, my motivation for side hustling is two-pronged. Part of it is to have the extra income. This allows me to save more. I’ve maxed out my Roth IRA every year since I got the job and I get a 7% match into a 401k with a 3% safe harbor. So I effectively save 17% of my pre-tax side hustle income. This is great because my stipend income isn’t eligible for a 401k and wasn’t eligible for Roth IRA contributions for the first couple of years of my degree before they changed the rules to make stipend income eligible. The savings are reassuring for me because I hate the idea of graduating from my program in my early thirties. Seriously behind on retirement savings, especially as job prospects for humanities, PhDs are pretty precarious and usually poorly paid.

23:23 Emily: I find it psychologically reassuring to have savings for when I finish my program, but it’s not just the savings. The extra income also allows me to have a nicer lifestyle than I would if I were living entirely off of the stipend. I don’t feel like I’m missing out because of my income. I’m admittedly a person who likes certain luxuries, like getting my nails done or having a wine subscription or going on vacation a few times a year that are out of step with a typical PhD lifestyle and need some more cash to fund. I like that I don’t have to bow out to plans with my friends who have higher paid jobs just because I’m in grad school, I can go on trips, go to weddings, go to a nice dinner, et cetera. I know plenty of grad students who enjoy living simply and don’t want missing out on those things, but they’re important to me.

24:08 Emily: The second reason is job security. I’m very conscious of how few decent academic jobs are out there. I have witnessed very talented scholars totally flounder on the job market and then panic when they have to rapidly pivot into a new plan with little or no work experience and a lack of obviously marketable skills. Understandably, this leads to a lot of anxiety and depression. I find it petrifying. I don’t want to be in that situation. I hang onto my job so that if I finish my PhD without anything else lined up, at least I have this. I like the job and would be fine to keep doing it while I figured out some other move post-degree. I think having the jobs gives me some security, both materially and existentially along with my main side job. I also have done other fixed term gigs to develop a more diverse skillset.

24:57 Emily: My goal is to make sure that I have recent work experience on my CV after I graduate and talking points for informational interviews. Besides just my research, I don’t wanna be in the position. I see many people in where it’s like they are graduating off a cliff and they have no idea what comes next or how to prepare.

What is your side hustle?

25:15 Emily: For my main side hustle I work in private college consulting. My company provides advice to students applying to university programs, working with clients around the world with a special focus on US colleges. My role involves mentoring students in their final year of high school as they work on their college essays. It’s almost all remote though. We do team retreats once or twice a year.

What are its benefits and detriments?

25:36 Emily: There are a lot of benefits. It involves two of the main areas. I enjoy working in education and writing. I love the colleagues I work with and I love almost all of my students. It’s a pleasure to get to know them and I learn new things about the world from them. I feel like they grow as people throughout the process of us working together, even when they don’t end up at their dream school. That makes it rewarding to me. It’s a great counterpoint to my independent research work because it’s people focused and the impact feels immediate. Unlike an abstract and long-term dissertation project, when I’m deep down a research rabbit hole on my own in the library, getting on a zoom to talk to a colleague or student is a breath of fresh air. Sometimes I feel that having a second job makes grad students more efficient. Anecdotally, I find that up to a point, the ones who have less time seem to manage it better. The drawback is that it’s highly seasonal work and I’m often having to be on email for several hours a day September through December.

26:34 Emily: It’s tough when it overlaps with the holidays and the fall semester crunch time. This was especially true in my second and third years when I was grading finals and writing my own papers and attending conferences simultaneously alongside my job. The nature of the work means that I just have to respond if students are down to the wire on their deadlines and my academic work has suffered in those moments, but not badly enough that my advisors said anything. I’m still on track to complete the degree in time and have been successful in my program. It’s a bit easier now that I’m ABD and more in charge of my own schedule. I have the freedom to organize my time around the busy season. The benefits to me are money and setting myself up for future careers Outside academia, the drawback is the stress and risk of burnout that can come with being over committed and the risk that spreading yourself too thin means not doing as good a job as you could have on your main gig. Personally, I’m okay with that. My approach works for me and my priorities, but plenty of grad students I know would hate it.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

27:34 Emily: I earn $45,000 annually on salary for the college consultant gig for which I am technically part-time. This is after several raise negotiations. I’ve been at the company six years now and started on 30 k. I get a Christmas bonus of $1,000, also paid for my laptop in the busiest season. September to December. I work 20 hours a week, and in low season it can be four to 10 hours a week to get started in college consulting.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

28:00 Emily: To get started in college consulting I cold emailed a bunch of companies and ended up going with this one, but had offers from others. I’ve heard of someone getting into the same type of role after being reached out to on LinkedIn. My university list serves, sometimes sends out listings for similar roles. I would recommend trying to connect personally with people rather than applying into a black hole, but then applying to a few places. I imagine that experience working with students as a TA or in a writing center would be really helpful, but if you have no relevant experience, try doing it on a volunteer basis first. I know if people getting these jobs after doing pro bono work, finally, it’s a fundamentally credentialist industry. So if you have a degree or two or three from a very competitive school, that will help, end quote

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28:44 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2023-2024 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Courtney: Landlord

30:04 Courtney: My name is Courtney and I am a third year Ph.D. student in civil engineering at Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon.

What is your side hustle?

30:12 Courtney: My side hustle is renting out rooms in my house.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

30:16 Courtney: I do this to supplement my research assistant income and pay my mortgage.

What are its benefits and detriments?

03:21 Courtney: It’s a study dependable form of income and helps reducing my house, my housing costs dramatically. Besides occasional banking and paper work is a very passive source of income taking care of a house. It’s hard work, but when you have tenants, things have to be done in a timely and high quality manner with their living conditions in mind. For example, we recently replaced the roof and had to include them in the discussions of what the condition of the house would be during the construction.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

30:52 Courtney: Since I co-own the house, I also split the rental income. So I make $650 a month and I already pay quarterly estimated taxes for my fellowship anyway, so I calculate this income into that as well. But I also use tax deductions for housing costs by following form 1040 schedule E, which actually lays it out really nicely.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

31:17 Courtney: This side hustle requires the purchase of a property which is quite an undertaking. It requires some dedication to understanding rental laws in your state and city. But after that initial setup, having yearly tenants who stick around makes the side hustle low energy input for high rewards. I started this two years ago and I plan to continue the side hustle until I graduate in a few years. At this point I probably spend about 3 hours a month on managing tenants and their needs.

31:48 Courtney: If it feels impossible to buy a house look into co-borrowing or a first time homebuyer financial help in your state or county, and check out Emily’s other podcast on grad students buying houses.

Anonymous #2: Research Assistant

32:07 Emily: This next submission is from an anonymous grad student who is about to start intern year and lives in Texas.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

32:14 Anonymous #2: What is my motivation? Having a side hustle. I would say as a graduate student, I just needed money. And while I was grateful for the system that I received from grad school, it just wasn’t enough to be able to travel, to visit family, just to have a little extra cushion. And then now that I’m moving out of state for internship without my side hustle, I would not have been able to afford it at all.

What is your side hustle?

32:40 Anonymous #2: I am a research assistant at a hospital.

What are its benefits and detriments?

32:43 Anonymous #2: Some of the drawbacks of position, I would say, is for the spring semester balancing my schedule. There was a lot to do when it came to doing my internship interviews, wrapping up my final semester, in the state that I live in and just trying to balance my schedule, I would say is one of the drawbacks. Benefits of that are just having money, having a cushion. As I mentioned before, I am moving. I’m single. I’m moving from the states I live in to another state and I feel very fortunate that I’m not worried about affording my move. I am not worried about like the cost of a U-Haul or having to borrow money from relatives or like take out a personal loan. I am solely financing my move from the income I receive from my side job.

33:38 Anonymous #2: I would say in terms of how this will like this position will impact or like play a role in my future career. I’m the type of hospital that I work at is type of setting I would like to work in in the future and this population as well. Also, I can probably request letters of recommendation and from my bosses, and I think it gives me a lot of insight into the type of field that I’ll be working in the near term care.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

34:12 Anonymous #2: So I’ve been at this job since, I guess like orientation was in December and I make about 25. I make $25.83 an hour and 20 hours a week. And so I would say after tax, before taxes, I take home about 2000 a month.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

34:34 Anonymous #2: If someone’s looking to pursue this type of position or just a side hustle, indeed this a great source when it comes to looking for research assistant jobs that are flexible that are part time. I also recommend especially if you’re interested in research or just want to get some clinical, reaching out to PIs at different hospitals that might. They don’t always broadcast like that they’re hiring. And so reaching out to them and inquire like, Hey, you know, I’m so-and-so, I’m looking for a job, or I’m interested in any position you might have available. And that’s even better. That’s kind of how it worked out for me, where someone put an email out there for, like you said, Assistant Do you know of anyone? I responded back and I know me and I’m looking for a job.

35:28 Anonymous #2: I would say finding that balance in your schedule is really important. I and also having some flexibility. So during the semester I was working like in the middle of the week and now the semester has ended I requested a shift in the schedule so I could work the first Monday through Wednesday, which is helpful for me so that I can get other things done before the end of the week. But also I think just there was some delay. I work for the government and so there’s some delay when it came to my application process and not on my end, but just governments and and I, I very much communicated with my prospective supervisor and let them know like, hey, I filled all the paperwork. I’m just waiting to hear back. It took six months to actually get hired to start the orientation, to start the onboarding process, even though I was hired back in the summer of 2022. But I think for me, patience was a virtue and really just showing up and being present at work. And I’m confident that in the near future when I’m applying for postdoc positions, if I request a letter of recommendation from any of my supervisors here, they will happily write it.

36:43 Anonymous #2: Now that I am no longer contracted at my university as a grad student. The month of June is my last month. I’ll be working here. I’m just working here and I am so fortunate. Like I know I’m not like another. You know, I have peers that are either married or they’re receiving like, Oh, they have a partner or they’re receiving support from their family and like, I don’t know. So financially like, I take care of myself. So and I know for a fact that I would not be able to move 1500 miles from where I am now. Had it not been for this job, because the money I received, the the grad student through my stipend was great. It covered all of my bills and like maybe an extra $100 or two. But over the course of six months it would not have been enough to pay for UHaul to pay for moving boxes and also to and in my case, you know, oftentimes we apply for housing. They want someone who on paper earns three times the rent. And so if I did not have this job, I would have likely had to reach out to a relative to cosign my lease, which is fine. But, you know, it’s a hassle having to ask someone to do that again and again, especially if they’ve been like, So supposedly they’ve done it. You know, for me throughout grad school, it’s nice to kind of feel a little more independent.

DreVon Dobson: Professional Musician

38:08 Emily: This submission is from DreVon Dobson. Quote. I’ve recently graduated with a PhD in pathology from UNC Chapel Hill, studying the genetic regulation of blood coagulation factors. I’m about to start a postdoc position soon in environmental toxicology, studying the effects of ozone exposure on health and disease outcomes.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

38:29 Emily: Having a side hustle has been a great way to give my mind a break from my lab work, as well as supplement my income as a graduate student, which was livable but not great.

What is your side hustle?

38:39 Emily: My side hustle is performing as a professional musician. I minored in jazz studies on the saxophone and undergrad and I’ve kept my passion for music alive as a side hustle. I play at churches, country clubs, weddings, et cetera, with a few different bands usually on the weekends.

What are its benefits and detriments?

38:56 Emily: The benefits of this are that it provides a constructive and profitable outlet for my passion and it’s fun. The detriments are that there’s a considerable amount of preparation involved in order to play the gigs well, practicing learning, music, purchasing and maintaining equipment, et cetera. Also, the gigs can consume a good amount of my weekend depending on how far and how long they are detracting from my ability to rest for the upcoming work week. But you can also say yes or no to opportunities to fill your needs and schedule.

How much do you earn through your side hustle?

39:26 Emily: I have worked my way up to earning about $20,000 a year from my side hustle. This is definitely on the higher end for a part-time musician and I had to work my way up to that over the years. This is generated by about two to three gigs a weekend averaging out at around $200 a gig.

If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

39:46 Emily: Pursuing this side hustle is totally obtainable. If you are musically inclined, you can start by visiting local jam sessions in your area to figure out who might be in need of your musical talents. There are also online avenues to pursue in local Facebook groups and ads and websites like Reverb Nation Beyond Music. If you have a passion for the arts, there’s most likely a way to monetize it. You can sell art, join a dance troop, audition for a theater production, et cetera. I have found artistic passions and scientific studies to be a great combination of financial gain and life balance. I would encourage anyone who is interested to give it a shot. You never know.

Dan Gorman: Chaperone, Podcast Recording, Writing Lesson Plans

40:31 Dan G: My name is Dan Gorman. I am finishing my PhD in US History this summer at the University of Rochester, and I also live in Rochester, New York.

What is your motivation for having a side hustle?

40:41 Dan G: My motivation for side hustling is solvency. Uh, while we had pretty good PhD stipends at my university, it’s still, you’re living in sort of comfortable poverty as a PhD student, I find, and for some people it’s less comfortable. I stay comfortable in my case because I don’t have any dependents. Um, it’s just me in my household, but there’s always wanting to have more than just a little bit of extra money in the bank account, wanting to have something of a cushion. Um, especially as we got towards covid, I was glad to, I had done some side hustling and saved up some extra money. Sometimes the, when I say solvency, I mean, yes, paying the bills also, it’s good once in a while to actually do something fun with your assets, but also I, I think mainly my main reason for wanting to save up money was in case of an emergency. You know, if somebody got sick and I needed to go visit them or, um, you know, during covid when we just didn’t know what else was gonna happen next.

What is your side hustle? How much do you earn through your side hustle?

41:33 Dan G: My side hustle isn’t really one thing. What I recommend to other people is sign up for as many internal newsletters at your university as possible and re and actually read them. Um, I found a number of paying side opportunities within the university just by being on the newsletter feeds for different offices. Um, for example, okay, so the Office of Undergraduate Research a couple years ago they were sending a delegation of students to the National Conference on undergraduate research. And an opportunity came up that they would wanna send a couple staff or grad students as chaperones. Um, it was a pretty easy job. I had to go to Oklahoma City for four days, but they covered all my expenses and there was a small honorarium. It wasn’t a ton of extra money, but it was there and it was an experience that I could say, Hey, this counts as teaching and advising and mentorship.

42:22 Dan G: Another example is that I had joined a professional group for graduate students through our music conservatory, but they’d opened it up to graduate students in other divisions. It was called working PhDs. So they were doing professional readings and interviewing people about how they transitioned into alternative academic jobs. And as part of that, they launched a podcast called Working PhDs. And so by recording interviews for that, I was paid I think $75 per episode and I did three episodes. So then that was, it was over $200 extra. Um, so we’re, I’m not talking about huge amounts of money here, but finding bite-sized projects like these internally, um, if you do enough of them, they do start to add up to some extra cash.

43:04 Dan G: And again, $200 may not sound like a lot, but that could cover, you know, depending where you live, that could be internet, your insurance bill and something else for the month. So it’s not, it’s not nothing. Um, looking beyond the university, I think sometimes it comes down to professional networks and signing up. So again, it’s, I don’t have a very original method, but it’s signing up for the listservs for your professional organizations. Um, an opportunity came up a couple of years ago actually during the pandemic that, during that first pandemic year where some friends of mine were working on a digital library project, um, at Northern Illinois University, which is, you know, 800 miles away from me. But they said there they needed people to write sort of lesson plans for their, for their website. It was pairing archival old books that were scanned with how you could teach it in the classroom. And then you, we would present it digitally and that came with a $600 honorarium.

What are its benefits and detriments? If someone listening wants to pursue this side hustle, how would you recommend they get started?

44:01 Dan G: Um, and again, I don’t have a magic method for finding more of these except, you know, in my case, in my field, in the humanities, get on h net, humanities net, um, sign up for the main feeds which post every day, 10 to 20 calls for papers, podcasters. Sometimes you’ll see independent editing projects and, you know, it can be a little tedious cuz then, you know, you’re, you’re deliberately spamming your inbox both from internal sources and then from external professional organizations. But there are opportunities out there. It’s not a lot of money. Again, these are small, usually project based. The $600 for the, uh, the lesson plan was that’s at the high end of what I’ve gotten, but smaller bite-sized projects that you can fit in without massively impeding your own studies. Or if you have a more prominent work study job that you know you’re doing 10 to 20 hours a week. Um, I think writing that lesson plan and presenting it, I think it took maybe six hours total over the course of a couple weeks. Um, because the book was a dime novel. It was quite thin. Um, so your mileage may vary.

45:07 Dan G: Other challenges, I think also, again, that oftentimes these bite-sized academic projects, whether they’re at your school or somewhere else, they tend not to pay a lot. Um, you know, we’re talking one to $200 US users really. But the flip side is that if it’s a bite-sized project like that, you can do it quickly and it doesn’t really impede on your main work responsibilities at your university. And that was, that was the big thing for me. So wanting to find ways I could use my skillset, um, make some extra money, but also where it wouldn’t become such a massive time sink that people at the university, my supervisors would be saying, Hey, you’re not focused on your main work. Ultimately, I would say that the kinds of projects I’ve described are not ways to make a lot of money, although there are exceptions. Like if you become a writing tutor, you will make a good hourly rate doing that. However, they can give you unique experiences and give you some more in business parlance transferable skills and deliverable outcomes that you can say you have produced when you’re going on the job market.

Outtro

46:14 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Student Loan Deferment Shouldn’t Be Your Default

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In this episode, Emily interviews Meagan McGuire, a Certified Student Loan Professional and consultant with Student Loan Planner. Meagan goes over all the pertinent terms of the upcoming modified REPAYE plan, which is expected to join the other options for income-driven repayment plans in 2023. The relatively more generous terms of the modified REPAYE plan, such as the revised payment calculation and the interest subsidy, make it an attractive option not only for borrowers already in repayment but also for those currently eligible for deferment. That’s right! If you are a grad student, don’t default into deferring your student loans after the administrative forbearance ends! Instead, consider whether it’s worthwhile to enter repayment under modified REPAYE. You could potentially avoid all of the interest that would have accrued on your unsubsidized loans during grad school and/or reduce the number of years you have to pay on your loans post-PhD—all for free or a low cost. If you hold any federal student loans, do not skip this episode! Update 10/3/2023: The plan discussed in this interview is now called the SAVE plan.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Image for S14E7: Student Loan Deferment Shouldn't Be Your Default

Teaser

00:00 Meagan: This new REPAYE plan makes deferment look very unattractive for a lot of reasons. There’s not a lot of advantage to deferment anymore. And even if you had a payment kick in, keep in mind it’s a very, it’s a portion of your income. And if you’re closer to, let’s say 35, you know, $35,000 for your stipend, that’d be closer to maybe almost $10, $20 a month.

Introduction

00:32 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 7, and today my guest is Meagan McGuire, a Certified Student Loan Professional and consultant with Student Loan Planner. Meagan goes over all the pertinent terms of the upcoming modified REPAYE plan, which is expected to join the other options for income-driven repayment plans in 2023. The relatively more generous terms of the modified REPAYE plan, such as the revised payment calculation and the interest subsidy, make it an attractive option not only for borrowers already in repayment but also for those currently eligible for deferment. That’s right! If you are a grad student, don’t default into deferring your student loans after the administrative forbearance ends! Instead, consider whether it’s worthwhile to enter repayment under modified REPAYE. You could potentially avoid all of the interest that would have accrued on your unsubsidized loans during grad school and/or reduce the number of years you have to pay on your loans post-PhD—all for free or a low cost. If you hold any federal student loans, do not skip this episode!

02:22 Emily: OK guys, if you’re listening to this in real time, it’s April. You have just weeks or days to finish up your tax return, if you haven’t already. I’m standing by, ready to help you the moment you say you want me to. I have four versions of my workshop on preparing your annual tax return available, covering postbacs, grad students, and postdocs, both US citizens/residents and nonresidents. The last live Q&A call for the citizen/resident versions of that workshop is on Thursday, April 13, 2023. I’m also answering questions for the nonresident version asynchronously, and the deadline to submit those is Tuesday, April 4, 2023, but I might be able to get to some after the deadline as well, we’ll see. I also offer a workshop on estimated tax, which you’ll probably want if you are currently on fellowship and were surprised with a large tax bill on your 2022 tax return. The quarter 1 Q&A call for that workshop is on Monday, April 17, 2023. You can find the links to purchase any of my tax workshops plus tons of free resources at PFforPhDs.com/tax/. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s14e7/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Meagan McGuire of Student Loan Planner.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:02 Emily: I am so excited to have on the podcast today, Meagan McGuire. She is a consultant with Student loan Planner, so we have an actual expert on the podcast with us which is a refreshing change of pace. And yeah, I’m just so excited that Meagan is here because she works for this amazing company called Student Loan Planner, which if you have federal student loans and you’re not already following them, get on their mailing list, get on their socials. They have great, great information. I’ve been heavily relying on them with all the excitement and student loan news recently. Meagan has actually been on the podcast before, back in season seven, episode 13. So if you haven’t yet listened to that you know, some of that information might be a little bit out date because things have been developing. So, we’re going to talk about the new modified REPAYE plan today, which is another one of the income-driven repayment plans. We’re going to explain all those terms in just a second, but that’s the subject for today. So, if you have federal student loans, do not tune out, do not hit pause. This is a crucial episode for you. So, Meagan, thank you so much for joining me. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

05:04 Meagan: Of course, yeah. Thanks for having me again! I love nerding out about student loans. It’s also a very not fun topic. So we will <laugh> we will talk about it as you know, directly and informationally as possible to help you take a nugget of information from this conversation. But yeah, so I’m Meagan McGuire. Prior last name was Landress. I got married last year, so my last name is different now. But I’ve been with Student Loan Planner since 2019. I’ve been doing student loan planning for a while for my whole career, <laugh> pretty much. And I found that it, you know, student loan planning, in specific, like when it comes to financial planning is such a big piece of somebody’s financial plan. And it’s sometimes the first introduction to finance, which is not fun. And so, having an idea of what you should be doing with your student loans can help ease some of that, you know, anxiety or angst when it comes to thinking about money and finances in general. So, I’m happy to be here. Thanks for having me!

06:06 Emily: I love it. Thank you so much! And you have an actual professional designation, do you not?

06:10 Meagan: Yes. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. Yes, <laugh>, I’m what’s called a Certified Student Loan Professional or CSLP. It is a new-ish designation in the financial planning space. I got it back in 2019, very beginning of 2019, when I started with Student Loan Planner. But that just tells you that a professional has the financial planning background along with the specialized education in student loan planning.

06:37 Emily: Yeah, it’s so important. I know that people sometimes get really bad professional advice around what to do with their student loans and that’s why I love following Student Loan Planner. And there are other similar, you know, people who provide similar services. But having that designation is so important because as we’ve learned, there are so many fast moving changes and updates in the student loan world. And so, you really need someone who is up to date. Speaking of being up to date, we are recording this on March 3rd, 2023 <laugh>. So, very important between the time of our recording and the time of this release, maybe there’s been some major upheaval in the student loans world. We don’t know, just earlier this week, a couple student loans cases went before the Supreme Court, but of course we don’t have a decision yet. We’re still waiting on that and many things are waiting on that plan.

Repayment Plans

07:20 Emily: So, actually the subject for today is not the cancellation, which is very exciting on its own. But instead we’re talking about this new IDR plan, or modified IDR plan. So Meagan, I want you to take us back to the beginning with federal student loans because some people in my audience, you know, maybe current undergrads currently in grad school, they may have never had their loans go into repayment. So, they might not even know what the options are. What all these acronyms are? So, can you just tell us what are repayment plans? What are IDRs?

07:48 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah, for sure. So, there are kind of two different buckets of repayment plans or types of repayment plans you can consider when you’re entering repayment in the future. One bucket would be amateurized options, which are kind of like a normal loan, how that would operate where you get a term. So, 10 years, 20 years, could be as far out as 30 years. They take your balance, spread the payments out over that timeframe, and you pay off the whole balance within that timeframe. So, very standard, very normal definition, or you know, way of paying back debt. So, that’s one route. The other bucket are income-driven plans or IDR plans. That is the blanket term for the different income-driven options there are, because there are technically five different income-driven plans available, currently. And so, you know, depending on your situation, your marital status, your income, you know, it could lean you one direction or another when it comes to those income-driven plans. But so far there’s REvised Pay As You Earn as one, or REPAYE. Pay As You Earn, or P A Y E. There’s IBR, income-based repayment, new and old. So, technically those are two different plans. New IBR and old IBR. And income contingent repayment, or ICR. That’s the the laundry list of income-driven plans that are available currently. <Laugh>

09:20 Emily: And, correct me if I’m wrong, but the idea with the income-driven plans is that your payment is recalculated based on a recent income, maybe the previous tax year, for example. And it should, ideally, be lower than what you would have on the standard plan if you were going to opt for an IDR plan. So, you have this lower payment, but it scales with your income. So if your income goes up or down in the future, your payment may go up or down. And the purpose is not necessarily to pay off the loan in its entirety. So, what happens with IDR plans once you’ve been paying on them for a while?

09:51 Meagan: Yes, that’s a great question. So, unlike the amateurized options where it’s designed to pay off the loans during a certain time period, income-driven repayment plans, they are not designed to pay the loans off. They can, mathematically, if your payment is enough to do so over time, but it’s not designed for that. It’s designed to make a payment affordable based on the income that you’re bringing in. And let’s say you’re in a situation where mathematically your payments are never enough to pay off the balance. Well, those income-driven plans all come with a maximum repayment period of either 20 or 25 years. And if you’ve made payments for that 20 or 25 year threshold, whatever balance is left over at the end of that timeframe is then forgiven. So, it really helps people who are never really going to be able to get out from under their loans. No one is ever going to die with their debt <laugh>. They can get on that income-driven plan and go towards loan forgiveness. I hear that a lot where someone will say, “Ah, I’m going to be paying this until I die.” And I’m like, “Ah, check out those income-driven plans. Probably not.” <Laugh> you might be paying for a while but not forever. So, that is a safe haven for those that have large balances in comparison to their income.

11:13 Emily: I think you put that very well. It’s really designed to help people get out from massive student loan balances where their income is not really high enough to support a standard payment on that high debt balance. So, maybe your career plans changed, I don’t know what could have happened. Maybe your education plans changed, something has gone on where, yeah, your career income does not support this. And certainly for people in my audience who are graduate students, maybe they’ve gone through a lot of career shifts in the many, many years they’ve been in higher education. Or maybe they’ve accrued a lot of debt during that time.

Tax Bomb

11:47 Emily: One more question around sort of the technicalities of these IDR plans. Now, I understand that there is what was called a tax bomb at the end of some of these plans. Can you explain what that is?

11:58 Meagan: Yes. So, a tax bomb, that’s kind of the term we use for what happens after the loans are forgiven. So, when the loans are forgiven, there’s a debt that’s discharged. And the IRS sees any debt that is forgiven or canceled or discharged as a benefit to you. So, they tax that as income in the year that it’s forgiven. So, I know that sounds unfair <laugh> that is not fun. So, an example of this would be, let’s say you’re paying for 20 years. You still have a balance of $50,000 at the end of that 20-year timeframe. That is forgiven, yay. But then you hypothetically would be getting a 1099 for that $50,000 that was forgiven. And of course you didn’t pay income taxes on that because that wasn’t part of your income. It was something that was forgiven. So then you have to report that as if you did make it as income and pay income taxes on it. That sounds really scary. But mathematically, if your balance is a lot larger than your income, it can still make sense to go that direction even if the tax implication exists. When we do our planning with folks, we plan out how much we need to save per month to prepare for that. And oftentimes the savings amount that you have going towards that tax bomb and the monthly payment that you have going towards your loans is still a lot less compared to what it would look like if you were trying to pay it off traditionally.

13:28 Emily: Yeah. And I want to note that one of the reasons that student loans have become such a hot button issue, and one of the reasons why these IDR plans have in the past gotten a lot of criticism, is because of the negative amortization schedule. So some people, and what that means is that some people who, you know, you have these low payments available if your income is low enough or if you have enough kids or whatever the calculation is, their payment might be so low that it’s not even covering the interest that is accruing on that loan. And that means that the loan balance is ballooning and ballooning and ballooning over time. So, the plan that we’re going to talk about, I want to say too many spoilers, but it does address this. Okay, so one of these major, major issues with student loans is being addressed. And we’ll talk about that in just a few minutes. But before we get too far off of this basic “what’s going on with student loans” question, I want you to explain what public service loan forgiveness is and how it plays in with these other plans that we were just talking about.

14:23 Meagan: Yeah, so public service loan forgiveness or PSLF for short. It’s not a repayment plan, but it is a program that you can pursue while on an income-driven plan if you’re working full-time in a public service capacity. So this is for those that work in non-profit, work in government, you know, academia is a great example. If you’re working at a public university. You know, or private yeah, it could be private as long as they’re 501(c)(3) status. So public service loan forgiveness, if you make 120 qualifying payments, which means that you’re on an income-driven plan, you make 120 qualifying payments, which shakes out to 10 years if you’re completely consistent, and whatever balance is left over at that time is forgiven. And a really great part about that too is that it’s forgiven tax-free, unlike those income-driven forgiveness paths. So, PSLF can be a really great option for those whose career is in public service. It’s a much shorter timeline than the 20 or 25 years, and it doesn’t have the tax implication with it. So, it’s definitely a great program if it makes sense with your career path.

15:39 Emily: Yeah, and I know probably a lot of people in my audience, maybe more so than the general population, does have plans to work in academia or in government or for non-profits or for other kinds of qualifying employers after their graduate school is done. So, this definitely could factor into the plans for a lot of people. Especially if you do a postdoc, maybe that’ll take a few years at a university or in government and those years count if you’re making your payments, you’re enrolled in the program and so forth. One thing that I do want to note for current graduate students is that you have to be a full-time employee for the payments that you’re making under PSLF to count towards PSLF. So, graduate students are almost always considered halftime employees or less.

16:19 Emily: And so, even if you are an employee of a university during graduate school, even if you are in repayment, that time is not going to count for PSLF unless you’re a very, very unusual case. But if you’re a part-time employee, it’s not going to count towards PSLF, unfortunately. However, I know most people who are in graduate school are choosing deferment in any case, so they’re usually not making payments anyway.

Modified REPAYE

16:38 Emily: So, let’s get into kind of the meat of this new, modified, I don’t know what language you use. The new version of REPAYE. Okay.

16:45 Meagan: Yeah, <laugh>.

16:46 Emily: So, back in August, 2022, the president proposed a new IDR plan. Now that plan has kind of been modified over time, so it’s no longer a new IDR plan, but you explain what is this new-ish plan that we’re looking at?

16:59 Meagan: Yeah, new-ish. Yeah, that’s the right terminology. So, their plan originally was to come out with a whole new income-driven plan. But then a couple things I think happened that made them reconsider that. One is we already have five income-driven plans, so that wasn’t really going to simplify things. It was going to add one more thing to the equation to make things a little more complicated for decisions. And also the Department of Ed did not get an increase in their budget this year. So, they are operating off of the same budget that they’ve been operating off of with all of this stuff going on. So, they’re not going to have the capacity to be implementing a whole brand new plan. I think that is my assumption, <laugh>, why they started to instead of have a a new plan, they’re thinking about modifying an existing plan. And the existing plan that they’re thinking about modifying is REPAYE, revised pay as you earn. REPAYE is one of the cheapest income-driven plans, currently. There are some pros and cons to this plan currently, but some of the modified changes could be very attractive. Especially for those you know, starting out their career coming up who might have long training periods, which we could certainly get into.

18:20 Emily: So, when you were last on the podcast, we talked about very, very broadly, very generally, kind of a rule of thumb around what the ratio is of your student loan balance to your income once you go into repayment. So, for my audience, this is usually going to be post-PhD, perhaps post-postdoc. So, your career income at that point, and what those ratios might be in order for you to really want to consider an income-driven repayment plan versus just going down the standard repayment route. Now I think what’s going on with this modified REPAYE plan is that that rule of thumb has probably gone out the window. It may be completely different now. So, we’ll talk about that in a moment. But I just say this because I want the audience to stick with us because we’re going to be talking about some technical parts of the plan now. But really an IDR might be more attractive to you with this new version rather than in the past. So like, if you have any kind of student loans, I want you to stick with us through this next, like, pretty technical section. Okay, so this modified new-ish REPAYE plan. You said we think it’s going to look like this. How firm is this plan, and when is it going to go into effect, or we think it’s going to go into effect?

19:24 Meagan: It has passed the 30-day commentary period. So, it was officially proposed. There was a 30-day commentary period where folks could make suggestions and now they’re reviewing those. We’re outside that 30 days. So I think the timing of this, I think we are going to hear more information on if what was proposed is actually going to be implemented. I think we’re going to hear about that in the next couple months. So, maybe by May, June. And maybe those rules will be locked and loaded for July, meaning maybe we can enroll in this by the end of the year or early 2024. That is my estimated timeline. Payments, as we know, are not currently enforced, like no one’s making income-driven payments or payments towards their federal student loans.

20:17 Meagan: And it’s all kind of, the start date is contingent on this Supreme Court case, as you had mentioned earlier at the beginning of the podcast episode, which is debating if that one-time cancellation can be done. Can Biden forgive $10,000 or the $20,000 of student loan debt for anybody under those income thresholds? We don’t know yet. And I think Congress and the Department of Ed is waiting to see how this is going to shake out so they can know if they need to make any modifications to this modified proposed repay plan. Or if they want to make it more generous or if they need to take stuff out. So, I think they’re kind of waiting on that, if that makes sense. But we could see this, you know, definitely within the next year, which I think is exciting.

21:05 Emily: Yeah. Okay, so we’re going to talk about the plan as of today’s date, and you know, if there are more changes that come down, you know, stick with Student Loan Planner. Follow them, follow me. I’ll try to make updates to this as well if any major updates are to be had. But we’ll talk about the proposal as it exists today. Okay, so who is eligible once this plan is in effect? Who would be eligible to enroll in it?

21:29 Meagan: So, anyone who has federal direct loans. So, if you, and direct loans, you can tell if you have these, if you log into your studentaid.gov account, you should see literally the word direct in your loan name. If you see something like Perkins Loan or FFEL, which stands for Family Federal Education Loan, those loans in particular are not going to be eligible for this new plan, but they can be if you consolidate them. So, that is an option if you needed to fix that. And that would only be relevant to anyone who had borrowed before 2010. These loans are not issued anymore. So, if you are newer to borrowing or started borrowing after 2010, don’t worry about it. You’re going to have the right loans. And private loans are excluded. This is just for federal student loans.

Payment Calculation

22:20 Emily: Okay, yes, thanks for that clarification. So, one of the things that is being modified about this REPAYE plan is how your payment is calculated. So, can you explain maybe both, but definitely the new way that the payment, if there’s any payment, what it would be?

22:36 Meagan: The current calculation, how they do this is they take your adjusted gross income, usually from your tax return. There’s like an IRS data retrieval tool that they have that they just pull it through from your most recently filed tax return. So, adjusted gross income, that’s not gross, that is your gross pay minus any pre-tax deductions. So, think you know, 403(b) contributions, 401(k) contributions, HSA, FSA, those things are taken out. So, we get our adjusted gross income, then they subtract 150% of the poverty line, which that’s about $20,000, $21,000 for one person, for a family size of one. So they take your AGI minus that 150% of the poverty line, and you get what’s called your discretionary income. And then that is what the payment itself is based off of. And REPAYE is based on 10% of that discretionary income number. The new way that they’re proposing this to be done is similar, still going off of adjusted gross income, but instead of 150% of the poverty line deduction, they want to take 225%.

23:51 Meagan: So, it is a big hike in how much would be part of your discretionary income. So, naturally, that would make anyone comparatively looking at the old REPAYE and the current REPAYE, it would make anyone have a slightly lower payment. It could be worth as little as maybe75 to a hundred dollars a month compared to the current REPAYE plan. It could be a lot more if your income is a lot more. It just depends. So not only that, so that’s one way that they’re going to calculate the payment a little bit less. But the other way that’s going to impact the actual calculation is the portion of your balance that’s for graduate loans would stay based off of that 10% of discretionary income. If you have a portion of your balance that was from undergrad, let’s say you have like $30,000 from undergrad, $70,000 from, you know, graduate school, that would mean 30% of your loan balance is undergrad.

24:52 Meagan: So, they plan on, or the proposal is for undergraduate loans, they would charge 5% of discretionary income. So, you’d have some weighted proportion of the two. 30% of your payment is based on 5% of discretionary income, and the other 70% would be based off of 10%. So, your percentage will certainly vary depending on what your actual weight is for the undergraduate loans. But all in, it does make the payment slightly cheaper for just about anybody. Maybe a lot less for some that have a lot of undergraduate loans. Maybe not, you know, that 5% may not come in if you never borrow it for undergraduate, but that’s currently how it’s proposed.

25:40 Emily: Okay, so let me restate, make sure that I understand.

25:43 Meagan: Yeah, I know that was a lot. <Laugh>.

25:44 Emily: So, of your adjusted gross income, your AGI, which is your gross income minus your above the line deductions, as you mentioned. Things like traditional retirement account contributions. So, you get your AGI, and then a certain amount of that is going to be not used in the calculation. So, it is 225% of the federal poverty line in the case of the new REPAYE plan. I think I looked at that, and for one person it’s about $30.5K. 30 and a half thousand dollars for one person. If you had children, if you had a bigger family, that number would be larger. So the amount that is excluded from your income, that’s not going to go into the calculation is going to be larger. And then whatever marginal amount of income you have above that calculated level, that’s what you’re going to be calculating the payment from.

26:31 Emily: So, it’s 5% from your undergraduate loans, 10% from graduate. If you have both, it’s going to be a weighted combination of the two to make the calculation. So, many people in my audience, I would think probably only have undergraduate loans. And so if they’re looking at that calculation, they’re going to be, you know, it’s 5%, but just of the discretionary income, just of that amount of income that’s exceeding this 225% of the federal poverty line. Okay, I think I restated that okay. Because this is a really important part of this is like, how is this payment calculated?

27:00 Meagan: Yeah. And just a quick note, if that kind of made your head hurt and it made you sick to your stomach thinking about those calculations, we do have a free calculator on our website, studentloanplanner.com, that you can go and plug in your income and it’ll do the math for you. So, there are resources, free resources out there that can help you with that <laugh>. So.

Commercial

27:21 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my tax resources, many of which I have updated for tax year 2022. On that page you will find free podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. The absolute most comprehensive and highest quality resources, however, are my asynchronous tax workshops. I’m offering four tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022, one each for grad students who are U.S. citizens or residents, postdocs who are U.S. citizens or residents, postbacs who are U.S. citizens or residents, and grad students and postdocs who are nonresidents. Those tax return preparation workshops are in addition to my estimated tax workshop for grad student, postdoc, and postbac fellows who are U.S. citizens or residents.

28:37 Emily: My preferred method for enrolling you in one of these workshops is to find a sponsor at your university or institute. Typically, that sponsor is a graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, postdoc association, or an individual school or department. I would very much appreciate you recommending one or more of these workshops to a potential sponsor. If that doesn’t work out, I do sell these workshops to individuals, but I think it’s always worth trying to get it into your hands for free or a subsidized cost. Again, you can find all of these free and paid resources, including a page you can send to a potential workshop sponsor, linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

New Interest Subsidy

29:24 Emily: Now, some other stuff is going on with the interest and how that is accruing and so forth. So, explain what’s going on in the new plan for the interest.

29:30 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, yes, the interest subsidy. So, this is another really big deal with this new proposed plan. So, just as you had mentioned previously, one of the big, maybe downsides or just factors of being on an income-driven plan is, you know, if you’re on an income-driven plan, you’re going for payment affordability, you’re going towards loan forgiveness, most likely. So, your payment could very well not be enough to be covering even the interest that’s charged per month. And that would mean with a student loan debt your interest that’s not paid would be accruing on the balance. This is different than capitalization. So, it’s not actually being added to the balance and then interest is charged off of that new balance, thankfully. Student loans grow in a simple interest format. But it still accrues on your balance. So, that means your balance is growing as you’re going towards loan forgiveness, which really gives a lot of people some heartache because that’s not normally how debt works. <Laugh>.

30:38 Emily: And contributes to the tax bomb we were talking about earlier.

30:42 Meagan: Yes, exactly. So, that gets to the meat of this. So, this subsidy with the proposed new revised REPAYE plan, they plan to have a 100% interest subsidy, which means it would not allow the balance to grow at all, even if you know, it should have been based on the regular rules today. So, that’s really big. It’s big for a few reasons, not just for people who are going towards forgiveness. And this is an important note that I wanted to mention earlier. I just remembered now, these income-driven plans don’t have to be the forever plan for you. Like they don’t have to be the long-term plan, but you can use them as a tool, especially in the years where you’re not making a lot of money. And if this new REPAYE plan is approved as it’s proposed, it would be a huge benefit to you to be on this new REPAYE plan.

31:37 Meagan: Because even if your income’s really low, even if your payment is calculated to be zero a month, which is possible, as long as you’re in repayment on that new REPAYE plan, your balance cannot grow. That is different if you go into deferment, which is allowed if you’re in a training program. So, that’s something to definitely consider. And I know that was something we wanted to talk about here in a bit too, but the a hundred percent interest subsidy is a big deal cause it keeps the balance growth at bay. It can’t go higher than what it is, you know, at its current principle and interest today, which is great. And so, that helps reduce the future tax implication in the future and it can help maybe people with lower income now but plan on paying the loans off later to keep the balance as low as possible.

32:30 Emily: Yeah, thank you so much for saying that that way. Now when you’re saying a hundred percent interest subsidy, what I understand about this is that if you are making a payment, your payment goes against the interest that accrued that month first. If you’re making a larger payment than just the interest that’s accrued, then the principle comes down. If you’re making a payment that’s less than the interest that has accrued, you’re still making that payment, but then the government will be paying the other portion of the interest that’s accrued. Is that what you mean by 100%? So, it’s like it’s never going to grow, but that doesn’t mean you’re not paying interest.

33:06 Meagan: Yeah, that’s a good point.

33:06 Emily: You could be paying interest. It’s just not going to grow and grow and grow.

33:09 Meagan: Yes. Yeah, basically, you could look at it as an interest only loan where you’re just paying interest but the balance isn’t going to be going down, but it’s not going up. So that’s a good thing, <laugh>.

Undergrad Versus Grad Timeline

33:21 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. So, let’s compare this quickly to what many people in my audience may be familiar with because if they’re, let’s say currently in graduate school, their loans are probably in deferment. And if they had subsidized loans from their undergraduate degree, subsidized doesn’t mean that no interest ever accrued. It meant interest accrued and then the government paid it completely for you. So, it’s very similar to that. It’s just that it might not be paid completely if you are making some kind of payment as well, versus if you’re in deferment and you have unsubsidized loans, of course you’re not making payments, but that interest is still accruing, it’s not being subsidized at all. So, this modified REPAYE plan is kind of somewhere in between, right? Fully subsidized and fully unsubsidized loans. If we’re talking, you know, if we’re comparing to people who are in deferment, which this is not for people who are in deferment, this is for people who are in repayment.

34:09 Emily: We did just cover when you’re calculating the payment that undergraduate and graduate loans are treated differently. But I understand there’s also a difference in terms of the repayment term before forgiveness occurs. Can you clarify that?

34:22 Meagan: With the proposed plan, the undergraduate loans could be eligible for forgiveness after 20 years. Graduate loans would be on the 25-year timeline unless you’re on either pay as you earn, which is a different income-driven plan or new IBR. So, there is a 20-year timeline for graduate loans. It just will not be associated with the new REPAYE or the existing REPAYE. So, that’s something that goes into the planning when we decide, you know, is this new plan going to make sense? Or do we just rely on the existing plans for the shorter term?

Married Filing Jointly or Separately

34:58 Emily: I see. Gotcha. So, because your payment is based on your tax filing <laugh> forms, your AGI, how you file your taxes affects that payment. So, I understand that most people who are married, most Americans who are married file jointly, it kind of makes sense calculation-wise for most people. But student loans are one of those areas where it can throw a wrench in that, and some people do choose to file separately. So, what is going on with married filing jointly versus married filing separately? And how is the modified REPAYE plan treating that?

35:29 Meagan: Right. Yes, so you’re exactly right. Filing taxes as a married couple, normally you’re going to be filing jointly. There are a lot of tax advantages to filing jointly with a spouse. Main reasons to be filing separately would be if there are IRS debt situations with a spouse that you want to exclude from your situation, if you’re going through a separation or a divorce. Those are some big main reasons, but also student loans are becoming a large reason why people consider to file separately. And that is because when we’re on an income-driven plan, the payment is based off of your adjusted gross income that pulls from your tax return. So, if you’re filing taxes jointly, then the Department of Education is going to want to know what your household income is because you filed jointly with your spouse. So, even if it’s just your loans, the payment is going to be based off of the household income, which can be a problem for folks, especially, I mean for a number of reasons.

36:29 Meagan: It will make the payment higher if your spouse has income. It weirdly makes it seem like your spouse has to be contributing to your loans even if you went into a relationship with the understanding that it was your debt. So, it can create some issues there. And so there is a solution to this. Filing taxes married separately, depending on the plan, will allow you to exclude spousal income. So, that is a big advantage for a lot of people who are pursuing an income-driven plan or forgiveness because it keeps the payment just based off of their income. It keeps the payment lower, so it’s maximizing the forgiveness path. The current REPAYE plan as it is right now does not allow you to exclude spousal income regardless, which is kind of stinky. So, we’d have to revert to either PAYE, the pay as you earn plan, income-based repayment, either the new or the old IBR, or income-contingent repayment.

37:32 Meagan: Those other four income-driven plans allow you to keep the payment off of your own income as long as you’re filing taxes separately. REPAYE currently does not. Now, bear with me. The new revised REPAYE plan would then allow <laugh> this to actually be the case for REPAYE to exclude spousal income. So, that is a big deal because that’s been the one plan that, you know, has been an issue for folks where maybe they wanted to be on REPAYE for whatever reason, it was the cheaper payment option for them. But it requires you to include spousal income. The revised REPAYE plan that could be coming out is going to operate like PAYE, IBR, and ICR. So, that is a big advantage because it allows folks to have that benefit and, you know, have all the other benefits that come along with this new REPAYE plan.

Consider What’s Best for You

38:31 Emily: Yeah, thank you so much for that clarification. Is there anything else that we should know about the new proposed REPAYE plan?

38:40 Meagan: So, one just word of caution is I think if this plan does get approved, I hope it does, I think it could be a really great option for a lot of people, but I know it’s going to be positioned or it’s going to be talked about as if it is the best plan for anybody. That is not necessarily the case. So, what I mean by that is we talked about how it could make an income-driven payment a lot less. It could allow you to exclude spousal income. It could have a 100% interest subsidy. So, there are a lot of benefits to it. But one big downside is if you have graduate school loans, it is a 25-year timeline to forgiveness. That is five extra years of repayment compared to the existing pay as you earn plan and the new IBR plan.

39:34 Meagan: So, that’s something that really needs to be weighed because if they come out with this new plan, they do plan on phasing out pay as you earn, which is the 20-year timeline. They still would have new IBR, but to be eligible for that plan you couldn’t have borrowed before July of 2014. So, it’s limited to newer borrowers. So, if you’re someone who borrowed before 2014 and you value maybe being done with your loans or being done with forgiveness in 20 years instead of 25, then the new modified REPAYE plan, even though it’s cheaper, like maybe a little bit cheaper per month, that may not outweigh the extra five years of repayment. So, that’s something to just be aware of is it may not be the best plan for everybody. So, it still warrants some careful consideration.

40:28 Emily: Yes. Thank you so much for adding that. And I’ve grown a new appreciation for your profession from listening closely to the Student Loan Planner podcast over the last handful of months because there are so many more complexities that I, even as sort of a person in the financial space, but not really, you know, following student loans really closely. There are so many more complexities that I was not aware of. And so I say for anybody for whom your student loan repayment is a very high stakes decision. A lot of money involved, a lot of income, a lot of debt, I really think going for a plan from you all or from a similar organization is going to pay off. Like for some people, I know there have been examples on the podcast where people were not aware of some of the forgiveness options available to them, and they are forgiven hundreds of thousands of dollars that they would not have otherwise been able to do. Now, if you have $10,000 of student loans, this is not necessarily a high stakes decision for you, but really if it is a high stakes decision for you, it’s worth getting a professional to advise you on this. So, that’s my little plug for you all for Student Loan Planner, mid-podcast.

41:33 Meagan: Thank you.

Changes to Rule of Thumb

41:33 Emily: So, having gone through the, you know, many of the terms of this modified REPAYE plan, is there someone for whom this makes a lot of sense? How has the rule of thumb that we discussed earlier been updated with this new plan as an option?

41:47 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>? Yep. If you’re someone who’s working towards PSLF, this rule of thumb will be different for you. So, keep that in mind. There are greater chances of you being eligible for PSLF, it making sense to go towards PSLF, even with smaller balances. So, this would be more of a rule of thumb for those that are not doing PSLF but are interested in the longer-term forgiveness. Previously, our rule of thumb was if your balance was two times your income, then forgiveness is definitely going to mathematically make more sense than trying to pay the loans off. Then we had the COVID forbearance happen, and 0% interest for a long time and we started to get a little more conservative with that number and saying maybe it’s like one and a half times your income because the federal student loan system is kind of interesting right now. We don’t know what’s going to happen <laugh>, they have a lot of flexibility to, you know, make student loan repayment better.

42:48 Meagan: And now, with this new revised REPAYE plan proposal, we’re starting to think that it could be, if your balance is around the same as your income, especially if you have a large household, if you have, you know, a couple kids and you’re married, then pursuing longer-term forgiveness might actually make more sense even if your balance is about the same or just barely above your income. So, it’s worth checking out, don’t write it off until you run the numbers. And then you can weigh the pros and cons of going both routes, but certainly don’t write it off before you take a look at it if you’re kind of in those balance ranges.

43:27 Emily: Okay, so quick restatement is if your income, and now right now we’re talking about your career income, we’re not talking about your grad student stipend.

43:35 Meagan: Yeah, correct.

43:35 Emily: Not even necessarily your postdoc salary, but your career income is, let’s say in the first year that you have that quote unquote real job. If it is around or less than your student loan balance at that time, that’s when you should be taking a look at this plan and possibly some of the other plans as well, depending on those ratios. If your income far exceeds your loan balance, mm, probably the standard plan most likely is going to be good for you.

44:00 Meagan: Yeah.

Should Current Students Consider this Plan?

44:01 Emily: Okay. Now we’re going to get into what I think is the super, super interesting part of this interview. Because so far, we’ve been learning about this modified REPAYE program generally, but what nobody is talking about <laugh> is what should current students do? Should current students be considering this plan?

44:22 Emily: Nobody’s talking about this. So I want to know, and we have a few different ways of asking this question. So basically, what I’m talking about is for people for whom deferment is an option, should they instead, what are the advantages of perhaps enrolling in this new proposed REPAYE plan versus sticking in deferment? And so obviously there are going to be different considerations for different people. So, we’re going to talk through a few of these different scenarios. Let’s talk first about someone, let’s say either a single person or someone with a family, but their income is lower than that 225% of the federal poverty line that we talked about earlier. Now we’re not giving advice because this is a podcast <laugh>. What are the thoughts about someone who has that level of income?

45:03 Meagan: Yep. So, thoughts there are that if you were to enter the new revised REPAYE plan, your payment could be as little as $0 a month. So, and that that is a legitimate income-driven payment. It counts towards the forgiveness timeline. If you were full-time, you know, working 30 hours or more a week, that could be an eligibility for public service loan forgiveness as well. So, that’s good as far as getting you on track for loan forgiveness and kind of getting free credit in a way. But what’s also good to consider is if maybe you’re unsure about loan forgiveness, you’re not too sure if that’s going to be the path for you, this could still make sense to get on the new REPAYE plan because it’s going to have that 100% interest subsidy. So, instead of your balance growing while you’re, you know, finishing this time period, this training period, it will be staying at the existing balance that it is today.

46:04 Meagan: So, let’s say you decide five years from now, 10 years from now, you know, forgiveness wasn’t going to be the route. Well, if you were on REPAYE all through this training period, even with your income being really low, your payment being zero, you’re paying back what you owe today. You know, the current principle and interest versus paying back what has accrued on that balance. Because the unsubsidized loans will be accruing while you’re in deferment. And so that just means interest is growing on your balance. So that’s a significant reason to consider going into this this new REPAYE plan if compared to going into deferment.

46:46 Emily: Yeah. So, let’s tease out the different types of loans you might have now. If you had subsidized loans, let’s say a hundred percent of your loans were subsidized, the advantage of going into this particular repayment, as I understand, would be then that you, and again in this scenario, we’re not making a payment because the income is low. You’re not making a payment, but you are accruing months and years under this repayment plan. So if you do end up choosing to go an IDR route and going the whole forgiveness plan, you have many more years that you’ve been in repayment even though you’re making that $0 payment. And there’s no advantage either way with the interest because it was going to be subsidized anyway. Now, if you had unsubsidized loans, throwing that into the mix, if you choose deferment, those loans are accruing interest. But if you choose this modified REPAYE plan, and again, your income is below this threshold level, you’re paying zero, which means that effectively your loans have become a hundred percent subsidized during that period of time. It looks like a for sure advantage for someone who holds unsubsidized loans and somewhat of an advantage for someone even with subsidized loans.

47:52 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, there’s an advantage either way. And it, you know, this new REPAYE plan makes deferment look very unattractive for a lot of reasons. There’s not a lot of advantage to deferment anymore. And even if you had a payment kick in, keep in mind, it’s a portion of your income. So, you gave me a good example before we had started this on, you know, maybe at most someone’s getting a stipend of about $45,000.

48:23 Emily: That’s real high-end people. Really outside.

48:27 Meagan: <Laugh>. So, we’ll go with like the highest number, which will give us the worst-case scenario payment-wise for this new REPAYE. That would be about 90 bucks, a hundred bucks a month. So, not too bad. And if you’re closer to let’s say 35, you know, $35,000 for your stipend, that’d be closer to maybe almost $10, $20 a month. So like, there’s less of a reason now to go into deferment. Because usually the first kickback I’ll get for that is, well, you know, I cannot afford a payment. I think you can afford $10 a month <laugh>, if it’s going to save you this amount of interest later, I think you can afford $10 a month or zero. Everyone can afford $0 a month <laugh>.

49:12 Emily: Right. So, if you’re under that 225% of the federal poverty level, it’s like, okay, your payment was going to be zero anyway. Awesome. If you’re above it, as you said, generally speaking for grad students, it’s only going to be slightly above. And if we’re talking about undergrad loans, let alone, that’s only 5% of your discretionary income for the calculation. And so, it could be just a few dollars, as you said, a few dollars, $10, $20, $50 if you had a particularly high income a month. And so, really in that case you’re making these small payments, but what you’re gaining is the interest subsidy on the remaining amount of interest that’s accruing each month and those years of payment towards this IDR plan. Is that right?

49:48 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, yes.

49:50 Emily: So, you can think about it as paying this small cost for those particular benefits. Now if you didn’t think for whatever reason that that was an advantage for you, maybe your loans are all subsidized, for example, whatever the case may be. Maybe you don’t think that small payment is worthwhile, but it is something to at least think about and consider and not just default into deferment as we have done for so many years in the past. Thank you so much for stating that.

Can You Be in Repayment and Still Taking Out Loans?

50:14 Emily: And then let’s think also about someone who, because this question might come up. So what about graduate students who think that there’s a possibility that they may be taking student loans out at some point during their graduate degree? Either they know they’re going to for sure, or do they think, “Oh wow, this is a possibility if x, y, z happens, I may take out a loan.” Is it even possible to be in repayment and still taking out student loans? How does this work?

50:39 Meagan: It is not. Yes and no. So, it depends. It always depends. But if you’re taking out loans for your current graduate degree, those loans in particular that are associated with that graduate degree cannot go into repayment until post-graduation. Your undergraduate loans can be. They can go into repayment. They can take advantage of maybe this interest subsidy or the forgiveness clock getting started. But loans for your current degree cannot. So, that’s one maybe downside for those who are borrowing.

51:12 Emily: Okay. So, let me restate. So, let’s say we have a current graduate student. The loans that they took out for their undergraduate degree could go into repayment if they want them to, or they can choose the deferment route.

51:21 Meagan: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

51:22 Meagan: Loans from a previous graduate degree, maybe a master’s program, same deal. But any loans that are being taken out for the PhD program, let’s say that they’re currently in, those have to stay in deferment for the time being, until that degree is done? Yeah.

51:37 Meagan: Correct. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yep. You got it.

51:39 Emily: Excellent. So we talked earlier, Meagan, about how, you know, this is still <laugh> a little bit tenuous and so forth. How likely is it do you think that this is going to come into effect as stated? Or do you think there are going to be edits that we’re looking at over the coming months?

51:55 Meagan: I don’t think there are going to be a lot of edits. I do think this is very probable. So, I do think that they’re going to be implementing this. If there are any proposed changes, I don’t think they’re going to be to these big ticket items that we’ve already discussed. I think they would be like really minute changes. But stay tuned. We will keep people posted <Laugh>.

52:15 Emily: Absolutely. Again, follow Student Loan Planner anywhere you like. Especially their newsletter, their podcast. Meagan, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. I knew I could not get this information from anyone else, so I’m so glad that you were able to come on the podcast. Thank you so much!

52:31 Meagan: Of course. Thanks for having me and letting me nerd out as usual, <laugh>!

52:35 Emily: Excellent.

Outtro

52:41 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

The Tax and Retirement Effects of Receiving Fellowship Funding

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jamie Lahvic about her experience being funded by fellowship during grad school at Harvard and her postdoc at the University of California, Berkeley. Regarding the tax complications of being on fellowship and the lack of retirement benefits, Jamie and Emily outline the issues, discuss possible solutions, and suggest advocacy avenues for instigating change. Listen through the end of the interview for the Big Questions regarding the true nature of fellowships and employment.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

S14E3: Image The Tax and Retirement Effects of Receiving Fellowship Funding

Teaser

00:00 Jamie: Because I often felt, you know, in addition to like the confusion and the frustration and wondering what to do, that I don’t know, it felt like an emotional hit. I felt unvalued when I’m put into this weird little category where my earnings don’t make sense and I can’t open an account and I can’t figure out how to pay taxes. And I went on this really kind of rollercoaster from feeling like, “Oh, I’m a valued scientist and worker in this field,” down to like, “Oh, nobody really cares about me or the type of work that I’m doing.”

Introduction

00:38 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 3, and today my guest is Dr. Jamie Lahvic. We discuss Jamie’s experience being funded by fellowship during grad school at Harvard and her postdoc at the University of California, Berkeley. Regarding the tax complications of being on fellowship and the lack of retirement benefits, Jamie and I outline the issues, discuss possible solutions, and suggest advocacy avenues for instigating change. Listen through the end of the interview for the Big Questions regarding the true nature of fellowships and employment.

01:43 Emily: If there are any prospective PhD students listening—and I hope there are—I want to point you to a new workshop I’ve been publishing in installments throughout this academic year, Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School. Now that we’re in admissions season, the modules are getting really exciting and immediately actionable. The two most recent modules are titled “Decipher and Compare Your Offer Letters” and “How to Negotiate Your Stipend and/or Benefits.” One from last fall that you might want to check out as you’re evaluating the cities your offers are in is “Stipends vs. Cost of Living.” I sincerely want you to go into grad school with your eyes wide open regarding the financial realities and in the strongest financial position possible for the program you choose. I hope you will check out the workshop and enroll in the modules that will help you accomplish that. Go to pfforphds.com/setyourselfup/ for more information. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s14e3/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jamie Lahvic.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:01 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jamie Lahvic. Super delighted to have Jamie here. We actually met at a conference last summer. I’m recording this in November, 2022. So, we met at the Graduate Career Consortium Annual Meeting, which was in July, 2022. We ran into each other during like a break or something, and we just started chatting and we had this electric conversation about funding, about fellowships, about benefits, about systemic issues that need to be addressed. And I just wanted to capture some of that magical conversation here on the podcast. So, Jamie, I’m super delighted to have you on. Will you please introduce yourself to the audience?

03:42 Jamie: Sure! My name is Jamie Lahvic. I am currently working as a Program Officer at the National Institute on Aging, where I focus on some policies as well as programs related to graduate students, postdocs, and early career faculty. But today I’m kind of excited to talk about my own personal experiences as a graduate student and then a postdoc. So, I went to grad school at Harvard Medical School studying biomedical sciences and then I moved on to UC Berkeley to do a postdoc in cancer biology. And I wrapped up that postdoc in 2021.

04:18 Emily: I’m really excited to see all these different perspectives from you being at a private university, a public university, now in government. Like, this is awesome! And I’m of course going to share some of my own limited experience as well. But we’ve both had some observations about these issues about the finances and the benefits and so forth that are offered to graduate students and postdocs as employees or as fellows. So, I want to, for the listeners just to introduce them. I have a framework, this is not necessarily the way that everybody talks about this, but in my mind there are sort of two broad classifications that graduate students and postdocs can fall into. One is as an employee. The way you know that you’re an employee especially if you’re a citizen or resident, is if you receive a W-2 <laugh> at tax time, that’s like really indicative that you’re an employee.

05:04 Emily: So, you have this employer/employee relationship with the university and that may cause different benefits and so forth to be offered to you. The other classification, a little harder to name, a lot of people use the term fellowship, but not only things called fellowships could fall into this classification. So, I broadly call it awarded income when your income comes from an award that you received. Could be certain types of grants, could be a fellowship, could be some other things. So, that’s the language we’ll be using. We’ll just say fellowship for shorthand, but that basically just means non-employee or at least under the, you know, the timing and circumstances of receiving that award, you’re a non-employee.

Switching Between Grad Student Funding Sources

05:37 Emily: Okay. With that clarification out of the way, let’s talk about, you know, your personal experiences, my personal experiences with being an employee and/or being a fellow during grad school and postdoc. So, we’ll probably take this like topically. What would you like to share? What you know surprised you about maybe switching between these two types of funding? What issues did they bring up? Go ahead.

05:59 Jamie: Sure. Yeah, so as a graduate student, I was never an employee. I was always either paid a student stipend coming straight from the university or then a fellowship stipend once I got an NIH fellowship. So there, it still was a really complicated process. I remember being very surprised first year as a graduate student to try to figure out how to pay taxes, how to pay estimated taxes every year. And it seemed to become more complicated every year, especially because once I got my fellowship, some of my money would come from the fellowship, some of it would come from the university. Those would come in separate paychecks. And then later on once I was teaching I would get a third paycheck to cover the teaching that I was doing. And throughout all of that, I never received a W-2. Every now and then I would receive a 1099 for the teaching, but they were kind of inconsistent in whether they would send that. So come tax time, I kind of never knew what I should even do. So, that was a big struggle.

07:01 Emily: Yeah. Let’s talk about the tax issue for a minute longer, because I mean, you probably know this is like part of the bread and butter of my business now because so many graduate students and postdocs are running into confusion around the tax issues. And basically, I mean we will link in the show notes some episodes I’ve done on this in the past, but it basically boils down to like when you’re an employee, your employer has certain responsibilities in terms of telling you how much money you’ve been paid and how much money they withheld on your behalf and so forth. And once you get into this weird non-employee status, they simply don’t have those legal responsibilities in the way that they do for employees. And so, universities take like all these different approaches. And you’re saying even within Harvard, different pools of money were being reported in different ways.

07:46 Emily: And so, yeah, of course, that gets confusing for the recipient when the vast majority of our like, I mean already the U.S. tax system is so complicated to navigate, but if you step outside of the simple like employee world, it gets even harder to find, you know, the support and the resources that you need. That’s part of why I do what I do. But yeah, tell me a little bit more about how you dealt with these like challenges or complications of not having income tax withheld, for example, or like the reporting inconsistencies?

Team Effort for Taxes

08:15 Jamie: Yeah, I think a lot of the students kind of banded together to help each other. I remember we had one really proactive student who would post in our year’s Facebook group four times a year saying, “Remember, pay your estimated taxes.” And I was like so grateful to get that reminder because I was so caught up in, you know, rotations and qualifying exams and whatnot. I just couldn’t think about remembering to do this. So, just having somebody send a reminder was amazing. And then we did a lot of talking to each other to try to fill out the forms correctly. I think I was a few years into graduate school when I found your website and some of your tips, and I remember that being just amazing and just feeling like that’s something that was, you know, it’s complicated but once it’s laid out it is relatively simple. It is the type of information that the university could have given us that they never really did because they wanted to stay away from giving tax advice and they’re not a certified public accountant, and that type of thing. So, it felt like the students were on our own to try and figure it out.

09:17 Emily: Yeah, I think that again, while the universities don’t have again this legal requirement to issue tax forms that make sense, or whatever, I do think it’s really helpful when they try to address this as much as they’re able to. And I mean, I hear a lot of pushback when I work with uni–not a lot. Some places I hear pushback like, “Oh we really can’t, you know, give tax advice and so forth.” And I try to kind of make the point like, “Well, you on your own or me, like we could talk about this without it being advice.” Like we can just talk generally about how estimated tax works and what these different reporting things that are going on are. And that’s what I do like with my quarterly estimated tax workshop. Again, we’ll link it in the show notes. And so, a lot of times universities contract with me to provide that because they feel like that shifts some liability off of them and onto me and they’re more comfortable with that.

10:07 Emily: But again, just giving a little bit of education and some reminders and tips and so forth is not, to me, giving advice, because really it is ultimately up to the individual to figure this out. Like I’m not sitting down with anyone filling out their forms, like they’re still doing that on their own. I’m just providing guidance on how to do so. So, I guess this is kind of turning into an ad but like if the listener <laugh>, if you listeners are on fellowship and you want your university to help you, tell them about what I offer, because they may feel more comfortable working with me then doing this, you know, with an internal employee who, you know, might expose them to some liability.

Added Hardship of Inconsistent Tax Reporting

10:41 Emily: Okay. Estimated tax and reporting stuff, all a difficulty of being on fellowship. Anything more you’d like to add about that? Or should we move on to a new talking point?

10:52 Jamie: I just thought it, you know, in addition to kind of the confusion, it can sometimes cause real hardship. Like for me for instance, I didn’t receive a 1099 for my final chunk of teaching that I did in my like final year as a graduate student. And so, in between doing that teaching and like the spring and into summer semester, I got a postdoc. I moved across the country, I had started a whole new tax, you know, qualification as an employee there. And then when it came time to do taxes, I honestly completely forgot about the money I had gotten paid in the previous spring. Because I never received any kind of 1099, any kind of documentation, and I just didn’t pay taxes on it. And I think I like woke up in the middle of the night sometime like three months later and went like, “Oh my god, I made like thousands of dollars <laugh> that I didn’t pay any taxes on.” And then like on my own, I had to then figure out how to adjust my taxes. I had to pay a penalty for the amount that I, you know, had failed to pay previously. And at the time, like I had just spent all of this money to move cross country. I was making a postdoc salary. Like I really didn’t need to be paying any extra penalties on my taxes for that type of thing.

Potential Changes at the University Level

12:04 Emily: Absolutely. I mean, good for you for doing the amended return and everything, because I know some people will just kind of let it go after that point. But you really don’t want to let it go like multiple years and then have the IRS, I mean I know it’s rare, but it can happen that they can come after you, and then it’s an even bigger problem. So, good that you took care of it. But I think kind of what we’re saying here is just like communication, <laugh> communication is helpful around this topic. So, we’ve talked about this problem, various problems related to taxes. What are some things that could change at the university level, state level, federal level, whatever it is, to alleviate these problems?

12:41 Jamie: I mean at the university level, my understanding is that even if you’re not an employee, the university can still give you a 1099 for the money that you’ve made, and that universities, as far as I know, kind of choose whether or not to go through that step and send out those 1099s. So, I think that’s a major thing that just having a very clear document makes filing your taxes easier. You know, that’s something that like TurboTax and similar basic tax filing software knows how to work with. So, I think that would make a huge difference for a lot of students.

13:12 Emily: So, I actually did experience this during graduate school, so I’ve had a couple periods of my life where I was on fellowship. But when I was at Duke, Duke actually did manage to withhold income tax on behalf of at least me. I don’t know if every type of fellowship it was available, but at least for me, about half my years I was on this like non-employee kind of income. So, they were able to withhold on my behalf, and they did issue a 1099-MISC (Miscellaneous) at year’s end. So, that helps with like the problem you just identified of like, you know, a year and a half goes by and you’ve forgotten about some chunk of your income. Yes, that does help with that problem. The issue that it causes <laugh> is that the 1099 is most widely recognized as a self-employment income kind of document.

13:59 Emily: And so, then there’s, I feel like there’s even more burden on the recipient to properly communicate what this is with their tax software or their tax preparer. So, if they know to do that and they know that they’re not supposed to pay self-employment tax on this income, then it can work out. As a reporting document, it’s okay, but I would say, you know, nine times out of 10, people don’t know that it’s not self-employment income or maybe they know that, but they don’t know how to communicate that. And they don’t check that, they don’t understand how it’s going to affect their return. Anyway, so it can cause an even bigger mess. So like, I hesitate to say that that is the best solution. I mean really to me, I would say the 1098-T is the best form that we have as of now.

Reflections on an Adjusted 1098-T and Streamlined Tax Reporting

14:50 Emily: Although I would love it if there was just an adjusted 1098-T or a different kind of form that really could fully reflect the fellowship like situation. Because again, the 1098-T, while it’s used by many universities, they’re not required to issue one if you have more of this box five grant income than you do box one, like the educational expenses and charges. So, if they would just issue it all the time, I think that would be helpful. But even going beyond that, like this is now like a federal level kind of thing. Like if there were a different form or the 1098-T itself were somehow different, that would be even more clear.

15:26 Jamie: Totally. Yeah. Yeah, and I know anecdotally, I eventually switched over from like the TurboTax software to I think FreeTaxUSA that has a great little box to check that said you know, is this income, are you like, are you a graduate student or postoc rather than an undergraduate? Because I think it’s typically with that 1098-T where they’re trying to like not take out taxes on the portion that you’ve used to cover scholarly expenses, which applies to like an undergraduate who’s receiving, you know, tuition reimbursement, but not to a graduate student. So, I could imagine at the federal level, you could create a little box like that on the 1098-T, right? To check here if this is a graduate or postdoctoral level fellowship, right? Or check here if this money is not being used to cover tuition and scholarly expenses. It would be nice.

16:20 Emily: I think this is both like maybe a reporting option at the federal level, but also it comes down to the university level and how, like which department is the one that’s like processing these paychecks. And you are, like saying how you did about your various different incomes from Harvard, that indicates to me that like maybe payroll was issuing some of this, maybe financial aid was issuing some of this. And like having these different siloed departments separated from one another communication-wise means that things are not streamlined and you get different types of forms and maybe for you, maybe you were on different pay schedules for, you know, different sources. Yeah. So, having like a single department that handles like all, you know, income for graduate students and postdocs, whether it is payroll income for employees, whether it is, you know, non-employee income, that might help. I don’t know, maybe that’ll cause other problems too, but like right now, again, the universities are not really set up to handle this in a streamlined, or at least, I don’t want to say broadly. Some universities are not set up to handle this in a streamlined manner. Maybe others have it a little more figured out. I don’t know.

17:23 Jamie: I know actually when I got paid at UC Berkeley, it was more like that. So there, I was eventually on a fellowship as well, but I received one paycheck per month. And it was kind of interesting because, you know, I would receive my lump monthly salary or stipend from the fellowship, but only a little portion of that would get taxed. So, there would be like a little tiny bit of tax taken out, and then the rest of it was untaxed. But it at least came to me on like one single paycheck where it was very clear how much tax had been withheld, and then I could run the numbers when it came time to pay the estimated taxes on the rest.

17:59 Emily: So, it sounds like you were still receiving a pay stub. Even though a portion of this is employee. Yeah, that’s perfect. I mean, I kind of always tell people who are employees like, “Okay, look at your last pay stub, even before you receive your tax forms. Look at your last pay stub.” Maybe you have to access it through your payroll system or whatever, but you can find out how much tax was withheld. But again, those pay stubs are not generated usually if you’re a non-employee. But it sounds like Berkeley has this figured out, so I’m really happy to hear that. I would, yeah, I would love to be able to come up with like, I don’t know best practices, like which universities are using the best practices. So like, Duke has something figured out over here, Berkeley has something figured out over here. Like, I don’t know, maybe there’s a way to again, promulgate these best practices among these different universities and financial whatever, backend stuff.

18:44 Jamie: Yeah, and you know, I think great groups to kind of connect to for that are unions. Within the UC system, we have a strong postdoc union. And I think they had done a lot of pushing, you know, both on how much you get paid, but also a lot of these minute policies about how you get paid. And so I wouldn’t be surprised if the more streamlined system came about because of pressure from the union. And I’d be interested to know what other, you know, grad student unions and postdoc unions are where they’re having successes.

19:13 Emily: Yeah, I’m super glad to hear that. Exactly. Like sort of giving a voice to these, well, you might not know, but the downstream effect of this like decision that you’ve made, the way you’ve set up the system is it’s causing these problems.

Commercial

19:28 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my tax resources, many of which I have updated for tax year 2022. On that page you will find free podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. The absolute most comprehensive and highest quality resources, however, are my asynchronous tax workshops. I’m offering four tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022, one each for grad students who are US citizens or residents, postdocs who are U.S. citizens or residents, postbacs who are U.S. citizens or residents, and grad students and postdocs who are nonresidents. Those tax return preparation workshops are in addition to my estimated tax workshop for grad student, postdoc, and postbac fellows who are U.S. citizens or residents.

20:43 Emily: My preferred method for enrolling you in one of these workshops is to find a sponsor at your university or institute. Typically, that sponsor is a graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, postdoc association, or an individual school or department. I would very much appreciate you recommending one or more of these workshops to a potential sponsor. If that doesn’t work out, I do sell these workshops to individuals, but I think it’s always worth trying to get it into your hands for free or a subsidized cost. Again, you can find all of these free and paid resources, including a page you can send to a potential workshop sponsor, linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Advocacy Avenues for Grad Students and Postdocs

21:28 Emily: The last kind of question in this area, and you just mentioned one of the advocacy avenues: unions. Can you think of any other advocacy avenues that graduate students and postdocs might be able to use to make these kinds of changes that we’re talking about?

21:45 Jamie: I mean, even outside of a formal union, I’ve seen a lot of success from graduate students and postdocs just banding together and working together on these things. Whether that is kind of peer-to-peer advice and providing resources, or working together as a group to request something from your department, from your university. You know, I have so many memories of like trying to do my taxes, trying to fill in the forms, and getting like frustrated and upset and not knowing what to do. And I think like you have peers who can help you through some of those things and at least to help you feel supported.

22:25 Emily: Now, I don’t know exactly what avenue this is, but I have noticed over the years that I’ve been studying federal taxes for, you know, as in how they affect graduate students and postdocs, that there have been changes. The 1098-T has gone through actually a big remodel in the last few years. The Kiddie Tax went through a slight change with the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. So, there have been other changes that have been made that makes me realize that changes possible. Now, I don’t know what the avenue is for letting someone know, <laugh> that you want a change to happen. Maybe it’s contacting your representative or your senator or whatever. We can talk about some of the advocacy around like retirement stuff that happened a few years ago in a moment, but the change can happen. I’m just not clear exactly how you communicate, you know, this advocacy at the federal level.

23:09 Jamie: Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, I know I’ve been on like the IRS website looking for like from their resources, like what is their advice for people in these situations. And what I found was only a few lines, right? Like not a lot of detail. So, I would love to see, you know, coming directly from the IRS some more clear advice around these types of situations. And I do know that government agencies put out things like RFIs, requests for information, and they do have various sort of feedback channels, so trying to find those for the IRS or for your state tax departments could be one way to go about it.

(No) Access to University Retirement Accounts

23:48 Emily: Okay. Future project for me. Okay, well I just alluded to retirement accounts, so let’s talk about that next. What’s been your experience with being offered or not being offered access to university retirement accounts?

24:01 Jamie: Sure. So, as a graduate student, I didn’t have any option for any kind of retirement account. And my understanding was that from legal sort of tax reporting purposes, I wasn’t able to open an official retirement account. So, in graduate school I was making like just enough money to save up a little bit and I did start buying like some mutual funds with that. And then as a postdoc, I did have a retirement account offered. However, I started out by like not really contributing very much to it at all because I was living in this really high cost-of-living area with not a lot of income. And then I actually found out as I was going through the fellowship application process that I was going to be losing that retirement contribution once I got a fellowship coming in. So then I sort of, at the last minute just before my fellowship came in, I like maxed out all my contributions as best as I could for like the last few months and tried to top it off. But then the fellowship came in and those accounts kind of sat stagnant for the rest of my postdoc. So, that was a frustrating thing to see. And it’s definitely been really nice now for a little more than a year I’ve been in, you know, a real job with very solid you know, federal government retirement accounts. So, that’s been nice to watch those finally like properly growing.

25:26 Emily: Yeah, it’s been my observation that if you’re not an employee, you do not have access to the 403(b) or 457. I actually don’t know why this is the case, but I’ve never seen an exception to it. Like yeah, I guess it has to do with like the rules behind what kinds of money can be contributed to a 401(k) or a 403(b), 457, these kinds of accounts. What I mentioned earlier, and you probably know this is, at the end of 2019 with the SECURE Act, there was a definitional change. So, 2019 and prior, fellowship-type income not reported on a W-2 was not permitted to be contributed to an IRA, an individual retirement arrangement. But that definition of what kind of money is allowed to be contributed to an IRA was changed by the SECURE Act.

26:18 Emily: And so 2020 and forward, you can contribute fellowship income not reported on a W-2, if you’re a graduate student or postdoc, to an individual retirement arrangement. I don’t know why a similar definition change could not occur for 403(b)s, 457s, et cetera. I just know that I’ve never seen it. I’ve never seen a non-employee be offered access to that particular benefit. Furthermore, at the graduate student level, it’s just very, very rare. Not totally unheard of, but rare, that a graduate student employee is offered access to those accounts. It does happen from time to time, but usually not. I’ve had a couple podcast episodes, and we’ll link in the show notes, where people have talked about as a graduate student contributing to those types of accounts. But again, it’s not common.

27:00 Jamie: I didn’t know actually about that change to the SECURE Act. Like I was still a postdoc in 2020 and I had had that IRA that I had opened like just before my fellowship started. But yeah, I definitely wasn’t contributing to it in 2020 and 2021. I had no idea that that was a possibility.

27:17 Emily: Yeah, I don’t think it was, I mean I talked about it a lot, but just like generally speaking, people make that assumption, right? That graduate students and postdocs are usually not able to contribute to a retirement account. So, why would we even have the conversation about whether they’re allowed to or not? Thankfully, someone was having the conversation because there was a change, right? Because I mean I remember that Senator Elizabeth Warren was a sponsor of this bill. There were other co-sponsors. It came up multiple times in the Senate and the House and it just never passed, multiple years, until it was rolled into the SECURE Act. There were a lot of other changes going on with how retirement accounts were being treated. So, it was kind of rolled into that and I’ll link in the show notes a couple of episodes we did right around that. But again, people make these rules. So, if people at the federal level decided that graduate student and postdoc non-employee income was legitimate in whatever, you know, little tax benefit they’re trying to offer, then it could become legitimate and maybe universities also would follow suit and start to offer that benefit. I actually don’t know why graduate students would be excluded from 403(b)s and 457s. Does it cost the university anything? Like a little more administrative burden to extend those benefits? I honestly don’t know why they wouldn’t for those students who can.

28:34 Jamie: Yeah, especially if it’s not a question of matching, if it’s just a question of contributing your own earnings into this account, right?

28:41 Emily: We can dream, Jamie, that there would ever be a match <laugh>. That’s a couple more steps down the road. No, some postdocs do receive matches or actually, I don’t know about you for being a postdoc in the UC system, but the UC system has a defined contribution level for their employees. I don’t know if it applies to postdocs, but in any case you might get that as an employee and then lose it if you, you know, then switch over to fellowship at a non-employee.

29:06 Jamie: Yeah, I believe in the UC system, I never got any kind of match, but I did have access to that 403(b) as well as I think a DCP.

29:15 Emily: Yeah.

“Non-Employee” Fellowship Income Legitimacy

29:16 Jamie: But yeah, I think it’s interesting that you describe it as like the legitimacy of being an employee and the legitimacy of that income. Because I often felt, you know, in addition to like the confusion and the frustration and wondering what to do that, I don’t know, it felt like an emotional hit. I felt unvalued when I’m put into this weird little category where my earnings don’t make sense and I can’t open an account and I can’t figure out how to pay taxes. I remember having like some really sharp juxtapositions between attending a professional conference and like giving a talk and talking to PIs in my field and having people really excited about the work that I was doing and then coming home a week or two later and trying to figure out some of my financial life and it being so confusing and seeing that there was just no support set up for it. And I went on this really kind of roller coaster from feeling like, “Oh, I’m a valued scientist and worker in this field,” down to like, “Oh, nobody really cares about me or the type of work that I’m doing.” So, I think it can have an emotional hit as well.

30:24 Emily: I’m so glad that you shared that. I think this is how we started our conversation at GCC actually, that fellowships and similar kinds of awards are supposed to be so prestigious.

30:35 Jamie: Exactly.

30:36 Emily: It’s supposed to be such an honor. It’s supposed to be based on your merit that you’ve received this. And yet the downstream effects are, well now you’ve been unclassified as an employee and your benefits are reduced. And I don’t know, maybe at some point in the past, the money made up for it. Like maybe you could make more as a fellow, which could make up for some of these issues. But I don’t know that that’s so much the case now. I was actually just seeing on Twitter today that like, you know, fellowship awards on certain grants are set at such a level that they’re below the minimums the universities have to pay their own graduate students and postdocs. So it’s like, well if you’re not even making more and the university has to make up some deficit in the award that you’re receiving, like what is the point of this when it has these negative implications later on?

31:27 Jamie: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think the point for, well you know, it’s a point for your PI, right? It saves them some money out of their budget, and otherwise it’s a line on your resume. You got this prestigious award, congrats. Here’s some prestige. Right?

Inherent Value of a Fellowship

31:44 Emily: This almost reminds me of like, I don’t know, I’m thinking like crypto, like a currency. Like it only has value because we’ve decided it has value, it doesn’t have inherent value. If it came with more money that would be inherent value, but would it still be actually worth it? How much money would it take to make up for some of these deficits that we’re talking about?

32:04 Jamie: That’s a good question, yeah.

32:05 Emily: Right. So like, not only is it maybe the retirement stuff that we mentioned. Now on the tax front, you’re not necessarily paying more in taxes, it’s just more difficult. But I will say there are certain tax benefits I know at the federal level that you’re not eligible for if you have only this non-employee kind of income. So for example, the earned income tax credit, which is supposed to be for low-income individuals, usually with children, multiple children who are not making enough money, they have to have “earned income.” And under that definition, as of now, 2022, fellowship income is not considered earned income. So, you can’t get the earned income tax credit. You also can’t get the child and dependent care tax credit, which was so valuable in 2021. It was massively increased in 2021. You can’t get it if, let’s say even if you’re married to someone else, let’s say I ran into this situation literally I had a question from this married couple, both postdoc fellows, could not take this tax benefit because they did not have earned income under the definition. Now, graduate students can take it because students have an exception. But postdocs, everybody forgets about the postdocs!

33:08 Jamie: Everybody forgets the postdocs, it’s true!

33:11 Emily: Postdocs don’t have this exception <Laugh>. Everybody forgets that postdocs exist and yet for some, in some career paths, you can spend just as much time as a postdoc as you will as a graduate student, maybe even if not more. It’s a very important life stage. There’s family formation going on, and yet they’re excluded from some of these benefits. And like we were just saying, it comes back to is this fellowship income considered earned income? And that term earned income is used all over the tax code or the way the tax code is interpreted. Now, it used to be used for retirement account contributions, then the term was changed, taxable compensation, then the definition of taxable compensation was changed to include fellowship income. So, why can’t this term earned income be changed to include this type of income? I think this brings up a bigger, even bigger, bigger question though, which is like what is earned income?

Earned Income: Great Expectations

34:04 Emily: What is the responsibility that you have when you receive this non-employee income? What’s the responsibility that your employer has to you or your non-employer has to you? What’s the responsibility you have to your non-employer? So, if you’re an employee, you’re expected to work and produce certain outputs, whether it’s teaching, research, whatever. If you’re receiving a fellowship, it’s much less clear what the outputs are supposed to be. You have to have outputs to continue to be on the fellowship. But what are they exactly? And I think that lack of definition is what’s going into this earned income, not, you know, fellowship income not being considered earned income.

34:39 Jamie: Yeah, no, I think you’re right about that and I think that’s how this ties into kind of bigger labor questions, right? About our graduate students. Should they be classified as employees? Are they workers or are they students? And these are, you know, big things that have big implications across the U.S. and especially for universities on not just tax status but on a lot of things about how academics do their work and how academics get paid.

35:08 Emily: I’m so thankful for this conversation because it’s really like stretching me to think about these like bigger issues exactly as you were just saying. Whether we’re on fellowship or whether we’re employees, is there actually a difference there? Why are these differences encoded at the university level, at the federal level, state level, if they don’t have much meaning to us at the functional day-to-day, month-to-month, year-to-year. I know I mentioned earlier about half my time as a graduate student was spent as an employee, half as a non-employee. Functionally, what is the difference between what I was doing one year versus another year? It felt all pretty much the same to me.

35:45 Jamie: Yeah, and I think I remember it being sold to me as if you receive a fellowship, you have more independence from your PI because you’re bringing in your own money so you can be more independent in, you know, what experiments you do or how you drive your project. But in actual experience of my own or talking to other people, their level of independence was really just dependent on their PI and how that PI ran their lab. And I didn’t know anyone who was able to be more empowered because they had the fellowship or were able to push back on PI demands because of the fellowship.

36:22 Emily: I did see people who received fellowships be able to switch labs when possibly that wouldn’t have been the case otherwise. They were more attractive to that PI like accepting them. And they could, you know, take some time to get up to speed or whatever, again, without some maybe output expectations of being on a different kind of grant or whatnot. But I think you’re right, you know, we’re both kind of speaking coming from like the biological sciences kind of research. There’s so much overhead, there’s so much cost to that. How much money is the student really bringing in versus how much is their research overall costing the PI and the university? And so, if that ratio is not that great in the student’s favor, I don’t think there’s much independence that they can advocate for. Now, if your cost of doing research is like pretty much only your salary if you don’t have those kinds of overhead from doing like wet lab experiments and so forth, then maybe there’s a better argument here about independence from the PI. And I think in the humanities fields, some of them, at any rate, my understanding from talking with people is that like they have a lot more independence anyway in their research questions. And so a fellowship could be even more in that direction. But, yeah, I do think this is very, very field dependent.

37:32 Jamie: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Future of Research

37:35 Emily: Well, this conversation has been so invigorating. Is there anything else that you want to share about your experiences or your observations or advocacy avenues that we can encourage listeners to take?

37:46 Jamie: I mean, I always love to tell people to check out the organization Future of Research. I used to serve on their board of directors and it’s a really great non-profit that kind of helps students and postdocs come together and crowdsource information and advocacy plans and push the field of research forward from the point of view of these early-career folks.

38:08 Emily: Excellent. And we will link in the show notes an interview that I did with Dr. Gary McDowell, the former director of Future of Research where we talked about post-doc salaries and post-doc work environments and how to, you know, choose a supportive PI and these kinds of questions. That’s excellent. Well, Jamie, I’m so glad that we got this interview out on the podcast that it didn’t just have to stay in the halls of the GFF conference, but that’s where great ideas are born with these like mixings and so forth and it was great to meet you in person and yeah, to be able to record this for the podcast listeners. So, thank you so much for coming on!

38:44 Jamie: Thanks, it was wonderful talking to you!

Outtro

38:51 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This PhD Student-Nurse Is Confident in Her Self-Worth

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In this episode, Emily interviews Brenda Olmos, a nurse practitioner and rising third-year PhD student in nursing. A first-generation college student who grew up without financial stability, Brenda was debt-averse throughout college and her master’s degree and started building wealth in her 20s through investing and real estate, eventually aligning with the FIRE movement. When she decided to pursue a PhD in her late 20s, she held out for an online program with an excellent culture and funding package. Thanks to her lucrative outside work, Brenda has continued to invest consistently during her PhD, although more slowly than she did pre-PhD. Brenda’s strong financial position and career optionality have set her up well for a fulfilling post-PhD career.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

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Teaser

00:00 Brenda: It’s so cool to like see yourself grow in ways that you never thought you could. And financially like, okay, maybe I’m taking like a 50 or $60,000 per year cut. But in the course of my life, like is three years really going to matter that much, you know? And how much more will my life be enriched by having this degree? Like what doors will it open for me? Whether they’re monetary or not is not really the point for me anymore. And that’s something that I was able to achieve in my twenties.

Introduction

00:37 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 2, and today my guest is Brenda Olmos, a nurse practitioner and rising third-year PhD student in nursing. A first-generation college student who grew up without financial stability, Brenda was debt-averse throughout college and her master’s degree and started building wealth in her 20s through investing and real estate, eventually aligning with the FIRE movement. When she decided to pursue a PhD in her late 20s, she held out for an online program with an excellent culture and funding package. Thanks to her lucrative outside work, Brenda has continued to invest consistently during her PhD, although more slowly than she did pre-PhD. Brenda’s strong financial position and career optionality have set her up well for a fulfilling post-PhD career.

01:56 Emily: Would you please help me out with something? I want to record six podcast interviews this fall to be published over approximately the next six months. Will you consider being a guest? As a listener, I’m sure you have something to say about money as a PhD or PhD-to-be! Simply fill out the Google Form at PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ to get the ball rolling. Alternatively, if you have someone in mind who you’d like to hear me interview, please connect me with that person over email or Twitter! I really appreciate it! Let’s keep the podcast going strong! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Brenda Olmos.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:52 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today someone I know from Fintwit, Brenda Olmos. She is a rising third-year PhD student at the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center. She’s actually doing a PhD in nursing, so a very different kind of PhD student than we’ve had on here before. Not only that, her program is online, so she lives in Austin, Texas. So, Brenda, I’m so happy to have you on the podcast and get to have a deep-dive conversation with you. Will you please tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself?

03:20 Brenda: Sure! Hello everyone. My name’s Brenda Olmos. And, like Emily said, I live in Austin, Texas, and I’ve grown up in this area of central Texas and really enjoy living here. So, when I was searching for PhD programs, I was definitely searching for distance programs. And that’s the case about me being in an online PhD program. I grew up, like I said, here in central Texas, and I went to UT Austin for my undergraduate in nursing degree. Six years later, I graduated with my Master’s in Nursing as a family nurse practitioner. So, I had about six years of experience as a registered nurse at the bedside, which means I basically worked in inpatient hospital settings, taking care of people who were acutely ill. And then I chose to leave that setting when I became a nurse practitioner and I worked in an outpatient primary care setting for older people.

04:11 Brenda: So, I’m a geriatric nurse. And I found a scholarship in 2019 for geriatric nursing research. And I was kind of at a point in my life where I was satisfied with my career, and I found it rewarding. I found my work very gratifying, but I felt that my potential wasn’t really maximized in that role, that I made a difference one-on-one with patients, but that I wanted to make a difference at a larger scale. And in nursing, there are two paths for a doctorate degree. There’s a Doctorate in Nursing Practice, which is a DNP, and a lot of nurses do that because they want to make immediate change, like in administration or policy. And then there’s the PhD, which is the Doctor of Philosophy. And that’s more of a research-based doctorate, like most other PhDs in which you focus on generating new knowledge and you learn the research process.

05:07 Brenda: And I actually had really great mentors, which caused me to lean towards the PhD. And I chose the PhD in nursing because I felt that I wanted to have the doctorate that was universally recognized as a terminal degree and as a doctorate, whereas a DNP is very specific to nursing. I wanted to have something that, you know, the three letters that mean something to everybody <laugh> in the world, right? So, that’s kind of been my trajectory. I worked as a nurse practitioner for three years, full-time from 2017 to 2020. And then in 2020, I had been accepted to the PhD program. I was still kind of on the fence about it because I was making six figures as a nurse practitioner. And even though I didn’t know at the time that I had won this scholarship, I was like, I don’t know, this is a big leap to take. And then the pandemic hit and that took away so much of the joy of my work. And so much of the compensation that I realized I’m ready to go do something different. So, I’ve been in my PhD program since August of 2020. And like you said, I’m going into my third year now.

06:13 Emily: Wow. I love when I get someone on the podcast who has really, really thought deeply about their career and the trajectory of it and chosen, after all of that, to go into a PhD program. I don’t want be, you know, too critical of people who went like directly from undergrad down that path. I went almost directly from undergrad, but I just think it takes on a different tone. You have more focus in your research usually with all that like background work experience, and especially for you having a very, you know, very solid, super lucrative like career leading into that and you just really thought about, well, what do I want in my life? How do I want to be spending my time? That’s actually a lot of what we’ll be talking about today.

06:51 Emily: And I just want to kind of frame this for the listener a little bit that you know, Brenda’s had, as we just said of really different career trajectory than probably most people who are listening, probably the vast majority of people who are listening. And so once we get to start, you know, talking about Brenda’s finances, you’re going to see a pretty rosy picture. And it is of course, largely due to having that career in her twenties. But I don’t want you to like dismiss this episode as like, you’re never going to learn anything from it because you’re not in the same kind of position that Brenda was, because I still think there’s going to be something here, some strategy, some mindset, especially, that you can learn from. So, keep with us even though it may be a little bit of a different kind of story.

07:29 Brenda: And I do want to add to that that not every nurse is in my position, right? Like I had a really great scholarship for undergrad. Probably about 75% of my undergrad degree was paid for through scholarships and grants. I paid for my master’s degree, partially through hospital tuition reimbursement, and partially by working full-time. But I had classmates who took out a hundred thousand dollars for two years of their master’s program, and they’re paying that off now, right? So, I just want to be transparent about the fact that like, don’t go up to every nurse and be like, oh my God, you have no debt and you make a ton of money. Like, no, I was very strategic about the way that I got my education and I was always debt-averse. And so, I think that’s also important to point out.

Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE)

08:14 Emily: Yeah. Because I next want to kind of talk about you discovering the FIRE movement, which you did prior to starting the PhD program, but you had already, as you just said, taken some, you know, FIRE-like steps leading up to that, by being debt-averse, by working a lot while you’re in school, by choosing an employer who’s going to give you tuition reimbursement and so forth. So like, you were already setting yourself up well financially, even if you hadn’t, you know, discovered that particular movement. But let’s go to that like moment when you discovered the FIRE movement and what appealed to you about it? Like, why did you decide to start going that route?

08:45 Brenda: Yeah, I think a lot of it was rooted in, like for many of us, the way that we grew up around money, right? Like the beliefs that were planted in our minds as young kids. And for me, and I’ve talked about this in BiggerPockets and in some other podcasts, is that I had so much financial instability growing up and I knew so much about my parents’ finances and I knew the lows and I knew the highs. And I had kind of, maybe not consciously, but unconsciously decided that I was going to be stable, that my adult life was not going to be a roller coaster of emotions, secondary to my financial situation. And so, I think that’s why FIRE appealed to me because it was like, oh, I don’t just have to be stable. Like, I can be free. <Laugh>, you know, it’s like, there’s one extreme where you’re tied to the ball and chain, there’s the middle ground where you’re stable and you’re working, you’re saving, maybe you’re investing. And then there’s financially independent where no matter what you do, whether you work or you don’t work, you’re okay, right? So, I found out about it through some podcasts, StackingBenjamins, Afford Anything, Earn and Invest. And I just started listening and I was like, wow, there’s a lot I can do with some money I have saved up. Or like, maybe I should buy a property, you know? And that’s kind of how it all took off.

10:13 Emily: I think we’re going to get here, like later in the interview, but this like really interesting overlap in your story between pursuing FIRE and pursuing the PhD, and like the time freedom that FIRE can give you to then apply it to your academic interest. Even if those interests don’t pay as well as other career paths, perhaps, that were available to you. So, I really hope, yeah, we pull that out later in the interview. So, give me a couple, like, you know, mechanical things that you did in those early years of FIRE. You mentioned, oh, maybe I should consider buying a property. Like, what were some things that you did that were deviations from the path that you were on before, once you learned about FIRE?

10:49 Brenda: Right. So, I started investing in a brokerage account, which I had never done before. Like the thought of investing in the stock market was really foreign to me. I knew that my parents had 401(k)s, but I didn’t know that that was investing in the stock market. And so, I started doing research on that. And I talk about this on the podcast I have with my friend, Minority Millennial Money, about how my first experience into investing was like going to Wells Fargo and having an advisor there telling me that I needed at least $25,000 to like open a portfolio <laugh> and, you know, I look back on that and I did it. But I look back on that and I’m like, oh, I was so naive, you know? And now I know so much more and eventually, I transferred it out of Wells Fargo, but so the first thing was investing, and the second thing was buying a home.

House Hacking

11:40 Brenda: First, it was a small condo in 2017. Prior to that, I had kept my living expenses low because I just lived with a friend who owned a home and I rented a room from her for $600 a month, right? So, for Austin, even seven years ago, that was really cheap. So, and I didn’t, I don’t mind living with people, but it was nice to have my own place when I bought a condo in 2017. And then in 2019, I bought a single-family home and I rented out the condo. And so, now I have both.

12:11 Emily: So, let’s see, in 2019 you bought the single-family home, in 2020, you started the PhD program. So, are you still living in that single-family home? Or did you move again?

12:19 Brenda: Yeah, and I house hack it. So, I mean, house hacking is really just having roommates, right? So, basically, I started having travel nurses stay with me so that I didn’t have a permanent person. I just kind of had a nurse house. And so, I really enjoyed that. And there was a little bit of a lull there when COVID hit because many of their contracts got canceled. And so, I was at a critical point where I was like, I’m quitting my job. I have this house to take care of and the income may not be there, but it ended up working out. And hosting travel nurses is really awesome.

12:59 Emily: Yeah. This strategy of house hacking is one that I have given some air time to in the past and I’m really excited about for PhD students, because for that stage of life, it’s already really normalized to live with roommates. And so, if you have the financial wherewithal to be able to purchase, be the owner and be the landlord, it can like really radically transform your finances. So, so glad to hear that you were taking advantage of that strategy even before starting the PhD.

Choosing a Supportive PhD Program

13:22 Emily: So, we kind of already talked about like, why you wanted to start the PhD, you know, why you thought it was the best move for your career. Did you want to add any more details about, I don’t know, that particular program or anything else about your, you know, deciding to go down that career?

13:35 Brenda: Yeah. And, you know, we have met over Financial Twitter and there’s also Academic Twitter. And on Academic Twitter, I see so many horror stories of like really difficult programs, really toxic environments. And I was like, A) I don’t have to do this. So, I am not going to go to a program like that. And B) What if I found a really great program, you know? And so, I just created a spreadsheet with all the schools I was looking at. And this particular program, the director called me, she wanted to talk, she was warm, she was encouraging. And she was genuinely interested in me, you know? And I was like, wow, that’s really special. Whereas other schools like just sent me computer-generated emails, you know? And I was like, okay. So, like my email just went into like a black hole. So, that was important to me, especially because I know that people don’t know this, you know, people outside of nursing don’t know this, but nursing academia has a really negative reputation for being very toxic, very discouraging, not supportive, hazing, in a sense.

14:44 Brenda: And it’s especially prominent at the graduate, you know, and doctoral level. So, I was like, I don’t need that in my life. So, I’m going to look for a program where I feel like it would be a good experience. And I found that, and I was like, okay, I could do this here. So, that was important to me. And also, it was important to me that, if I was going to take this big financial hit, that it was going to be for something worth it. And like you said, for me, the PhD is really something I’m doing for personal enrichment, right? There’s no guarantee that I’m going to make more money when I’m done. You know, I made almost $200,000 in 2019 just working a little bit extra. If I get a job that makes me that much post-PhD, I’ll be really excited. But for me, it was also really important to see people that look like me because I’m a Latina nurse practitioner. And I just could count on one hand how many people who were nurses who had PhDs, who were Hispanic, that I knew, you know? And so, in a field that’s predominantly or 95% white women, I thought it was important to increase the representation.

16:00 Emily: Yeah. I love all those overlapping motivations. And I love, it sounds like you were patient, right? Like you were willing to be really selective about the program that you went to. And I love that little note about like, oh, this person actually called me, like, I talked to this person over the phone instead of just email correspondence and just form letter stuff. And I love that like, you looked at this field, like you said, it has this bad reputation, and you said to yourself, I don’t need to do this. And I’m only going to do it if I can find the program that is going to be really supportive of me. It’s the right fit for me. And even if you know, Academic Twitter and everything else is telling you, no, no, everything’s terrible. It never, it doesn’t exist anywhere. You were like, no, I’m going to hold out and find that perfect program for me. And you did. So like, I just say that to point out that, like, that’s a limiting belief that you could have had. Like, you could have told yourself, oh, I’m never going to find a home. It doesn’t matter. People like me never, you know, get into this level of nursing or succeed or whatever, whatever. And you chose to not have that limiting belief, right? So, I want other people to hear that message as well.

17:02 Brenda: Yeah. And I’ve spoken with my classmates about this, and I think I’m just fortunate in the sense that I have a very positive disposition <laugh> and so I didn’t, it never occurred to me that I wouldn’t find one. I just thought, I just need to find one <laugh>.

Net Worth in Grad School

17:17 Emily: Okay. So, let’s hear more details about your life, like coming into the program. We’ve heard a couple of things. You already owned two properties. You had been making like over six figures. In fact, your income was nearly $200K in that year immediately prior to starting graduate school. Would you like to share anything about like your net worth or just any other aspects of your financial picture at the time that you started graduate school?

17:38 Brenda: Yeah. So, at the time I started graduate school, that was 2020. So, my net worth now is about $550,000. And at that time it was probably, I think I remember tweeting about it and I think it was like $330K at that time. And that big leap has really just been real estate prices just skyrocketing. And so, I do count like potential, you know, appreciation in my net worth. And then I probably have, right now, I have about $160K or $170K invested. And at that time I probably had like $120K. And so, I’ve been contributing, let’s see, with Roth contribution maximum, which is 6,000, plus about a thousand dollars a month. So, that’s like $18,000 a year in the last two years. So yeah, that makes sense. $120K plus another $35K to $40K. So, I’m at $160K. And I anticipate, you know, this is just kind of a lull in my investing trajectory. And once I go back to full-time work and I’m earning a full-time income again of hopefully at least a hundred thousand, if not more, because I’ll be able to add my clinical practice contract work to it, then I’ll be able to go back to investing closer to $25,000 a year.

19:00 Emily: I mean, investing $18,000 a year while you’re in a PhD program is well, definitely the highest number that I’ve heard <laugh> of anybody on the podcast. So, you’re not exactly a slouch in this area. But so, prior to the PhD, though, it sounds like you were using a taxable brokerage account and maybe some employer-provided stuff 401(k) or 403(b).

19:18 Brenda: Yes, a 401(k).

19:18 Emily: Yeah. Okay. And so, that benefit went away, I assume. Like at the moment you’re only doing your Roth IRA and then the taxable brokerage account.

19:27 Brenda: Yeah. And actually, so before the episode, we talked about my stipend. So, my stipend is, just to protect my time, I don’t owe any kind of labor for that stipend, but I am limited to working 20 hours per week. The great thing about that stipulation is that I’m not limited to how much money I can make. I’m just limited to hours I can work. So, I have been a graduate research assistant at the university since spring of 2021 with one of my professors. And we’ve actually published two papers together, which is awesome. But one of the benefits of that is that as a GRA, you become staff of the university and you get access to their 403(b) and 457. So, I have been contributing at least half of my GRA income, which pays $25 an hour. And what’s funny about this is that the original pay for that position was $15 an hour at the university.

GRA Salary Negotiation

20:27 Brenda: And I told my professor, I was like, I’m sorry, like, I am passionate about your work, but like, I just cannot do it for $15 an hour. Like I have too many things going on and I have too many other much more lucrative offers. And so she went to financial, I don’t know, the financial services building and they agreed to bump it up to $25 for everyone in the nursing program, because we’re all registered nurses, at least, you know, some of us are nurse practitioners. So, it was like almost insulting <laugh>, you know? I mean, I don’t want to be a snob about it, but it’s like, who would take $15 when I can go work the same hour for $65 or $75? So anyway, so yeah, I’ve been doing the Roth, the taxable brokerage, which really comes third on my list. Like if I’m short on money one month, that’s the last one I fund. And then I contribute 50% of that $25 per hour income, which is 10 hours a week, a thousand dollars a month. So, half of that goes to the 457. And I chose the 457 on purpose because you can access it anytime without penalty.

21:38 Emily: Love all those details. Actually, it’s interesting because most people who I speak with who are like on the level of 10-hour per week employees are not offered those benefits. So like, I would say that’s a great, like, exception that your university or health sciences center offers that. So, that’s awesome that you’re doing that. And I love that you, you know, shared that negotiation story and that it not only benefited you, but benefited everybody. Like this is a message I’m trying to get across with like, you can negotiate for yourself as an individual. Yes. But it can also help other people when you do that, because it sends a message.

22:12 Brenda: I wouldn’t have expected them to just give it to me. I mean, it would’ve been fine, but then it’s like, I think it was a fairness issue, right? Because they were like, oh, well, all these other students are also doing it. No, it was great. And I think it was definitely something that the graduate college had to take into consideration because you’re looking at, you know, graduate students, but we’re also working professionals, right? So, that is kind of a unique situation that nurses in graduate school are in.

22:43 Emily: Absolutely.

Commercial

22:47 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2022 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15, 2022. Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax, and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives.

24:06 Emily: If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. Now back to our interview.

Sources of Income in Grad School

24:50 Emily: So, let’s like back up a tiny bit and talk about sort of all of your income sources during graduate school. Because you know, you’ve mentioned a couple times you have this really fantastic scholarship, so let’s start there. Like, what does the scholarship give you?

25:02 Brenda: Right. So, the scholarship is specific to my university, and it’s a special foundation that was money given through a philanthropic organization. And they basically allotted $150,000 scholarships separated into three years, $50,000 per year. That comes out to $30,000 per year or $2,500 per month as a stipend, and $3,000 for summer tuition, $6,000 for spring and fall tuition, and $4,000 leftover are for travel to conferences and that kind of thing. And I will say that I have used some of your courses and the taxes because that $2,500 counts as 1099 income for me. So, I do have to pay taxes on that. And most of my contract work is not on a W-2. So, I do have to pay taxes on that as well.

26:01 Emily: Okay. So, it sounds like the scholarship is fully paying your tuition and fees, giving you a stipend of $2,500 a month, and you have this additional professional development fund per year. Wow. Okay. That sounds great, but we’re not done yet. The way that we talked about this earlier, and I think the best way to phrase it for the listener is that that stipend of $2,500 per month essentially protects 20 hours per week of your time for you to devote to your dissertation research, or your classes, whatever it is you have to be doing for your PhD. And so, with the next 20 hours of your work week, you can be doing other paid work in that time. So, you can earn above your stipend. It’s just, you’re limited in the number of hours you can spend working. And so for you, you’ve already mentioned like the assistantship that you have at 10 hours per week. Do you have any other work that you do in the other remaining 10 hours per week?

Clinic Contract Work

26:52 Brenda: Yeah, so my former employer kept me on as a contractor. So now, I technically work for the agency that staffs their clinics, but they have urgent care clinics every weekend from nine to four. So, I’ll pick up weekend shifts. And occasionally, because my former boss knows me and knows that I know like the day-to-day clinic work, then he’ll ask me if I can work some days during the week. And so, I’ll do that. And that’s at $75 an hour. And then I have a couple of other jobs where I fill in for other nurse practitioners, like when they’re on vacation or they’re out sick or something. And the great thing about some of those is that they’re kind of slow clinics. And so, I can just take my schoolwork and do it there <laugh>.

27:43 Emily: Yeah. Sounds like a sweet deal. So, with all these active income sources together, the stipend plus the other work that you’re permitted to do, what does that add up to in terms of like your yearly income on average?

27:56 Brenda: So, last year my taxes were a little bit complicated, so I have the 1099 income, and then I have the real estate income. And I don’t take any of that as income from the real estate. So, the condo has its own account, and it has a little emergency fund for itself. And anything that it makes, it stays in there for emergencies, and same with the house. It has its own account. I pay rent into the homes account for myself, and then my tenants pay for pay into that account as well. But I rarely take any money from those accounts. So, I don’t count that. So, out of $112,000 last year, about $30K of that was from the rentals. And so, I really made about $70K, probably. So, $30K of that was from the stipend and then I made another $40K in part-time work.

28:53 Emily: Okay. So interesting. So, you have income sort of on your tax return, you have income that you don’t actually consider, like you’re not actually taking it into your personal accounts. You’re just leaving that as emergency funds and so forth for the real estate stuff. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, earning $40K on top of the $30K, again, really great for a PhD student. So good for you. The message that I want the listener to be hearing from this part of the interview is Brenda’s time is valued in a certain way because of her existing credentials and work experience and so forth. But earning something like $75 an hour is not out of the question for a PhD student in other disciplines. Depending, of course, on your work experience and what your field is and how, you know, in-demand it is, et cetera.

Valuing and Monetizing Your Skills

29:38 Emily: So, like you made the comment earlier. It’s a good thing they’re only limiting me on time and not the amount of money that I can make, because, you know, in some of your income sources, you can command quite a high hourly rate. I would love for other graduate students and postdocs to hear that message and think about, wow, if I’m making $75 an hour, a hundred dollars an hour, I only need to work two hours a week to make a really huge difference in my budget. You know, like when you can get to those high hourly rates, you don’t have to spend a ton of your time, you know, to get your finances in the shape that you want them to be in.

30:10 Brenda: For sure. And I think that, you know, like you said, I have a very particular skill, but there are skills that I don’t have that I would gladly pay someone $65 an hour to do. Like currently I’m dealing with some big data and I’m like, oh my gosh, I’m like going on websites of like, you know, people you can pay on an hourly basis to like walk you through something. And I’m sure that there are people in PhD programs who know this like the back of their hand, and they’re just not making themselves available for someone like me. Because I can earn that money, you know, relatively easily, and I’m happy to pay someone for their expertise as well. So, that’s very true. And I think that maybe sometimes, you know, I am very aware of my skill because I have a license and a certification for it, but you may have skills that other people need that don’t necessarily have, you know, very formal credentials, but that people would be happy to pay for.

31:12 Emily: And I think it’s so easy to get caught in this trap of undervaluing yourself inside academia. Like what you were talking about earlier with like the $15 versus $25 per hour negotiation that you did. It’s so common inside academia to undervalue ourselves. We see everybody else doing it, then we do it as well. But if you can take a little bit of a pivot and maybe, you know, market your skills to somebody outside of academia where these are not, you know, a dime a dozen kind of skills that everybody has, then you can, you know, potentially get those higher hourly rates. So, definitely food for thought, I hope, for some people.

Negotiating In-State Tuition

31:42 Emily: So, I think that you are probably the first interview we’ve had on the podcast who is doing like a hundred percent remote program. Not just like remote for COVID or whatever has been going on temporarily. So, you live not in the same state as where your university is. So, how does that work out with your scholarship and with the tuition and everything?

32:02 Brenda: Yeah, so that’s true. I specifically was looking for long-distance programs because I like where I live. I live close to my family, and I knew that a PhD was an experience that I would need support for <laugh>. And so, I didn’t want to leave my support system behind to do that. And so, whenever I got accepted to the University of Oklahoma and I was still living in Texas, and I had no plan to leave Texas, there was the issue of out-of-state tuition costs. And so, I got accepted in about March 2020. I found out I got the scholarship in April of 2020, and I had kind of set that as the bar, like if I get accepted and I get the scholarship, I’ll go, right? But then I thought, well, out-of-state tuition is almost double, right? It’s the difference between $10,000 and $6,000 a semester.

32:58 Brenda: And I just told the director, like I really want to go to this program, and I’m really grateful for the scholarship, but I realized financially that the out-of-state tuition is going to eat up about 50% of my stipend per semester. So, is there any way I could get in-state tuition? And she actually took it up to the graduate college and they agreed to give me a waiver for three years. So, I pay in-state tuition, and actually the great part about being a graduate research assistant is that, when you take on that position, it’s actually the grant that is funding you, that pays the waiver. And so, the waiver that I had originally been promised can be given to someone else while I’m a GRA.

33:44 Emily: Wow. Okay. Another great example of negotiation, and also another kind of general negotiation point that I like to make to prospective graduate students is like, you don’t necessarily know all the different levers that these people behind the scenes can pull to like enhance your package. So, you made the suggestion, maybe I could pay the in-state tuition rate instead of the higher rate, and they made that happen. And if that hadn’t exactly been possible, maybe they could have found a different way to augment your package to make up that, you know, $4,000 per year difference. So, yeah, so encouraging for prospective graduate students.

34:15 Brenda: I do want to mention that one of the points I brought up was that, and maybe this is just using a rivalry to my advantage, but you know, UT Austin and the University of Oklahoma are rivals in football. And UT Austin has a policy that, if you’re an out-of-state student and you come in to Texas with a scholarship from Texas, like if you won a scholarship in Texas, then the University waives your out-of-state tuition. And so, I presented that to the director and I said, you know, UT Austin does this, do you guys do anything like this? And I think that was what helped, you know, is that I had kind of done my research and I was like, you know, this is something another university is doing. Can you guys do it? And they said yes.

34:58 Emily: That’s a great example as well of like sharing of best practices. Hey, these other people have found this solution over here. Sometimes it helps to open their mind. Oh, well, maybe we could find this similar solution. Absolutely.

Money Mindset

35:09 Emily: So, you mentioned, you know, you’ve taken a pretty substantial income cut to pursue the PhD. Are there any other ways that taking this step in your career has impacted your path towards financial independence?

35:23 Brenda: Yeah, like I said, it’s probably a little bit of a setback numbers-wise and on the spreadsheet, but I feel that it’s so valuable to me personally and professionally and in my development as a person, as a researcher, as a scientist, as a nurse. You know, I’m just being challenged to think in ways that I never did before. And my practice in primary care became kind of monotonous and, you know, unfortunately, there wasn’t very much motivating me forward. And I feel totally different now. You know, even though sometimes I’m overwhelmed to learn new things, it’s so cool to like see yourself grow in ways that you never thought you could. And financially like, okay, maybe I’m taking like a $50 or $60,000 per year cut. But in the course of my life, like is three years really going to <laugh> matter that much, you know? And how much more will my life be enriched by having this degree? Like what doors will it open for me, whether they’re monetary or not is not really the point for me anymore. And that’s something that I was able to achieve in my twenties, right? Like that I set myself up to where, whether I make $50,000 or $150,000, what matters most to me now is that I’m happy, that I’m fulfilled, that I’m challenged, that I enjoy the people I work with, that I genuinely feel that I’m making a difference.

36:54 Emily: And it’s just so like gratifying to hear that, you know, the work you did on your finances in your twenties, both before and after discovering the FIRE movement, set you up to have this excellent financial experience during the PhD. Now, part of that is your field, and this is normal and so forth, this fantastic scholarship, you got all of that. But part of that is just, you know, when I was listening to some of your other podcast interviews, I was thinking that you just sound so like, calm about your finances. Like you just sound so like relaxed about them, which is a very different energy than what I give off sometimes, and like other people who I listen to, or interview on the podcast. But that is on the back of all the work that you did in your twenties to lead up to this point.

37:37 Emily: And so, you get to be relaxed because you have this net worth, you have your properties, you have your house hack, and you have this fantastic income. And this is just something that I so wish that more PhD students could experience. Even a fraction of the experience that you’re having, right? Like maybe it’s having the reasonable income for a person in their twenties or thirties. Or maybe it’s, you know, having worked for a few years, building up a bit of a nest egg before taking that income cut the way you have. I just, I love hearing just your whole like, sort of disposition towards this.

38:09 Brenda: Yeah. And I think a lot of it is reorienting your mind to not have a scarcity mindset, right? To kind of have an abundance mindset, like I’m going to thrive and I’m going to find a great job after this. And like I said, I’m just gifted with a naturally positive disposition, but like, I don’t have any worries about what will happen after, because everything’s worked out so far. <Laugh> maybe that’s just because I’ve been so strategic, right? Maybe in some ways I could have relaxed a little bit, but I am very forward-looking, right? I’m always kind of thinking about the next thing. And I have to remind myself to live in the moment, too, but yeah. I think that most PhD students, like you said, undervalue themselves. And I think about my classmates alone. You know, I’m like, they’re so talented, they’re so smart. Some of them are doing this with kids, with a family, taking care of their parents, with a job. And I’m just like, those are skills, right? Like those are highly marketable skills. Like just getting through the program with life the way it is is a crazy good skill. So, I really appreciate that you encourage people to, you know, maybe do some inward thinking about how can I monetize these things that just come naturally to me now in this stage of my life?

What is Coast FI?

39:40 Emily: You said a couple of minutes ago that, well, it doesn’t really matter if I make $50,000 or $150,000 a year. It’s going to be okay. It’s going to work out. That reminded me of the term Coast FI, a particular version of FIRE. Do you think about Coast FI? Would you describe yourself as Coast FI? Let’s define that for the listener.

39:59 Brenda: Yeah. I think traditionally, Coast FI means that your retirement is set, even if you don’t invest another dollar. I wouldn’t say that I don’t need to keep investing. I think I do. But I don’t really see myself retiring early in the traditional like FIRE sense because I have, A) A very useful skill that’s highly needed in this country. B) I speak Spanish, which is really useful in my part of the country. C) I’m just such a busybody. Like I could never stop working, you know, <laugh> like, I just, when people talk about staying home, like with children, I’m like, I could never do that. I could have children, but I’m not staying home with them 100% of the time. So, yeah, Coast FI for me just means that I have the financial flexibility to choose something that means something to me, as opposed to just a means to an end, to like pay my bills. And a part of that has also been keeping my expenses low. But the other part is, like you said, everything I did to set myself up in my twenties. And, you know, a few years ago, I probably would’ve told you that I would quit working at 45. And now that I’ve been in the PhD program, I’m like, no, there’s so much to do. There’s no way I could cut off 15 or 20 years off my career, you know?

41:26 Emily: That’s so interesting that you described earlier kind of finding, getting into like a lull in your career. Like you weren’t so stimulated. And I think that some people, like you did, would see FIRE, the potential to retire early, as the solution to that. And you did, but you also found another solution, which is, you know, taking your career in a slightly different direction, going down the academic path. And you found that reinvigoration there. And now you have kind of choices on both fronts. You have many career options, you have many financial options, to work, to not work, to work in a capacity that other people would not be able to, perhaps, because they hadn’t maybe had all these, you know, made all these decisions in their twenties and so forth. So, kind of the world is your oyster really <laugh> once you finish this program.

42:09 Brenda: Yeah. And things have come up during the PhD program. I don’t know if it’s because of the PhD program, but for example, I was a volunteer vaccinator for a local community center that was giving out COVID-19 vaccines every three weeks. And I was just consistently going, because I just wanted to help my community. And then they reached out to me about being the clinical consultant for their community center, because it was part of their grant. It would help their grant application if they had someone, you know, whose name they could put down, and they offered to pay me for that as well. That was an income source I forgot to tell you about. So, they pay me $500 a month, and I basically like attend some meetings and answer questions about COVID, about the vaccine, about what to do if this or that. And that was something I never would’ve thought I would do. You know? And it’s just like kind of a result of just saying yes, like I was like, well, I don’t see clinical consultant on my resume yet. <Laugh> but I guess I’ll do it. You just tell me what to do and I’ll show up, you know?

43:17 Emily: That comes from having that financial margin in your life and the time margin, right? To be able to say yes to, at first unpaid, but then later look what it turned into, you know, opportunities, which is something I could certainly <laugh> learn from.

Post-PhD Plans

43:29 Emily: Okay. So let’s talk a slight bit more about post-PhD plans. You mentioned earlier, you know, you have a few different career paths that you might choose among. What are you thinking?

43:40 Brenda: So, the idea of working in industry, or like the pharmaceutical area appeals to me because every pharmaceutical company has a medical affairs division in which they have doctoral-level prepared clinicians or pharmacists, which kind of serve as the bridge between the scientists creating the drug or the device and the prescribers out in the world. And so, that’s actually a really lucrative option. Like I know a couple people who do it and they make about $170,000 plus bonuses. So, they’re making like $200,000 a year. So, if I wanted money, that’s what I would do. <Laugh> which I’m not above saying that I want money. Okay. <laugh> so if that job came up, I would definitely consider it. Then there’s obviously the traditional route of pursuing some kind of tenure-track research career in academia. I’m kind of iffy on that. I don’t know that it’s the best use of my strengths. I’m definitely a people person. I’m an extrovert. I can do writing and I can write grants, and I could potentially, you know, try to prove myself to the NIH for the rest of my life <Laugh> to try to get research money, but I’m not sure that I want that.

45:03 Brenda: And then, I could do a blend of clinical practice and teaching where I just teach as an adjunct and I maintain my clinical practice. That’s kind of what I was doing before the PhD. So, I’m not sure that I would really be maximizing what I learned in the PhD if I went back to that. And then there’s a postdoc if I do want pursue research and I just want to get into someone else’s work and see what they’re doing, and maybe that’ll make me more excited about a tenure-track career. And then I was also looking at the National Clinician Scholars Program, which is kind of like a subset of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. And that’s a program at six campuses all over the country in which you basically get more education on health policy and organizational change. And most of the graduates go on to work at like the Department of Health or Health and Human Services or the CDC or some kind of federal agency where policy is happening. So, that’s probably one of my top ones. Pharma’s one of my top ones, and teaching in a, non-research, like very little research, that’s probably my third one.

46:11 Emily: Yeah. Well, hopefully, you have all of those things on the table once you get towards your graduation. And like you said, money could play a role in your decision, or maybe you’ll be following, you know, what seems most interesting to you. And again, the position that you’re in affords you those options. So, it’s wonderful to hear. And I think you said earlier, you know, you’re probably not going to be idle, right? Even once you achieve financial independence, however you want to define that. It sounds like you expect to have a long career, which is, once you’ve invested in something like a PhD program, it’s very, I think, worthwhile to keep your skills out there and keep, you know, working for your communities you’ve said so far. Yeah. Anything else you want to add about what you envision your life to change or not change? Like after you achieve financial independence?

46:57 Brenda: I think as a woman and as someone in their early thirties, you know, one of the big factors in deciding what I do is like, if I want to start a family, and what career option would be most conducive to that. And like you said, I have options, but like women have to think about that more. And especially in academia or in science, like you don’t want to be put on the mommy track, right? So, that’s also something I consider like if I were to have children, would it be right away after the PhD? Would I settle into another job? Like give it a year or two? I’m going to be 33 in September. Like what about my, you know, what about my fertility? Like, there are so many things to think about. And I think that’s very real for a lot of women in academia, right? It’s like juggling your human babies and the baby of your career, which is your research or whatever you’re working on post-PhD.

48:00 Emily: Absolutely. And another thing that having a strong financial position just puts you in a strong position to decide about. If you want to take an extra long maternity leave that’s unpaid, but you have a job to go back to, well, maybe that’s going to be, you know, the best situation for you, or maybe not. Maybe it’ll be a different decision, but whatever you do, I mean, having money gives you options. I say that over and over again, it just gives you options. And that’s really what you have now, which is so delightful to hear.

Where Can People Find You?

48:24 Emily: So, if people want to hear more from you, where can they find you?

48:29 Brenda: I’m on Twitter @almostbrenda, like the word almost, and then my name, almost Brenda. And that’s also my Instagram handle and my email address at Gmail, [email protected]. I’m on LinkedIn. That’s linkedin.com/in/bolmosfnp for family nurse practitioner. And I’d love to connect with people. Even if, you know, even if you just want to talk about how to improve your finances, I know Emily, you’re a great resource for that. And I’ve been in the Community forums there too. But if you’re interested in coming on our podcast, I cohost Minority Millennial Money which is on Apple and Spotify and all of the platforms. We love to have people come on and we talk through their finances with them and see what they could do better. So yeah, I’m easily reachable. I’m all over the internet. <Laugh>

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

49:26 Emily: Wonderful. I hope you’ll have a few people follow up with you from this. Okay. I’m going to conclude with the question that I always ask my guests at the end of interviews, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

49:44 Brenda: I would say it would be to disassociate your self-worth from your net worth, right? Because although I’m in a particularly advantageous position, I know how difficult it must be for people who are not in this position and are looking forward to those days when they get to earn a higher living. And you know, you’re already undervaluing your skills. You’re already in places that may be toxic and not supportive. Like, the very least you could do is like not value yourself based on what’s in your bank account. <Laugh>. And also, if you have the ability to keep investing, like to not lose time, because time is money in the market, right? So, anything you can throw at it is super helpful.

50:32 Emily: Great messages to end on. Brenda, thank you so much for this delightful interview!

50:36 Brenda: Yeah. Thank you!

Outtro

50:42 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student’s Finances and Mental Health Were Stuck in a Negative Feedback Loop

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Haley Sanderson, a postdoc at the University of Saskatchewan. Haley was dramatically underpaid during graduate school and discouraged from working on the side. While many of her peers lived hand to mouth, Haley’s situation was made more dire by her at-the-time undiagnosed and untreated mental health disorder. Haley entered a negative feedback loop in which her finances, mental health, and physical health deteriorated together. Emily and Haley discuss what her program could have done to ameliorate this negative spiral and why it’s vital to sufficiently financially support PhD trainees. Haley concludes with her very practical financial advice for anyone at a career transition point.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Image for S12E4: This Grad Student's Finances and Mental Health Were Stuck in a Negative Feedback Loop

Teaser

00:00 Haley: My suggestion would be, if somebody’s in my situation, to go get the help you need and get the financial help that you need, even if it means taking out loans. Because it’s much better to have the financial debt than the mental health debt.

Introduction

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 12, Episode 4, and today my guest is Dr. Haley Sanderson, a postdoc at the University of Saskatchewan. Haley was dramatically underpaid during graduate school and discouraged from working on the side. While many of her peers lived hand to mouth, Haley’s situation was made more dire by her at-the-time undiagnosed and untreated mental health disorder. Haley entered a negative feedback loop in which her finances, mental health, and physical health deteriorated together. We discuss what Haley’s program could have done to ameliorate this negative spiral and why it’s vital to sufficiently financially support PhD trainees. Haley concludes with her very practical financial advice for anyone at a career transition point.

01:44 Emily: I have set a super audacious goal for my business and our U.S. PhD community broadly. It’s actually a bit difficult for me to even speak it out loud! My goal is for every graduate student, postdoc, or postbac in the U.S. who is not having income tax withheld from their stipend or salary to be offered training on how to 1) estimate their future income tax liability, 2) determine if they are required to pay quarterly estimated tax, and 3) prepare to pay their tax bill or bills through setting up a system of self-withholding. I am passionate about this topic because surprise tax bills, high tax bills, and fines are an almost completely preventable source of financial strife for my community, and all that’s needed is a bit of education delivered at the right time. I provide just such a training, which is my asynchronous workshop titled Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. Most of you have heard me talk about it before, and some of you have taken it. The perfect time to give PhD trainees access to this workshop is when they start or switch onto non-W-2 income, which often happens near the start of the academic year, i.e., the near future.

03:08 Emily: If you share my passion—or maybe it’s more of a frustration for you—and know that your university is not already providing sufficient training in this area, would you please recommend that your graduate school, postdoc office, graduate student association, or department sponsor my workshop for those interested in taking it? You might want to take it yourself, or perhaps you just want to save the entering cohort the time and energy it took you to figure this all out on your own. To make this recommendation, simply email the potential sponsor with the reason you are recommending the workshop and this link: PFforPhDs.com/sponsorqetax/. If you’re comfortable with it, you can Cc me [email protected], and I can pick up the conversation. Thanks for participating with me in trying to reach this goal! I know it will prevent a lot of people in our community from experiencing tax-related financial emergencies next spring.

You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s12e4/.

Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Haley Sanderson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:33 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Haley Sanderson, who is a postdoc at the University of Saskatchewan, and she is coming on the podcast to talk about a really sensitive topic, which is living on a very low graduate student stipend while dealing with mental illness. So, Haley, I’m really pleased that you volunteered to be on the podcast to talk about this important topic. So, would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

04:58 Haley: Hi, I’m Haley. I have a PhD in environmental studies where I specialize in environmental microbiology and biotechnology. I finished my PhD in five years defending and graduating in fall 2018, since then I’ve completed postdocs with the Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Dalhousie University, and I’m now a postdoc in the Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization at the University of Saskatchewan. And I’m currently applying for more full-time permanent gigs <laugh>.

05:37 Emily: Well, best of luck with that. Okay. So we’re going to go back to your grad school years, and most of my listeners are going to be in the U.S. So, could you please explain, give some context for how you are funded during your PhD?

Funding During the PhD

05:53 Haley: So, during my PhD, I started as a master’s student, so I actually started on a much lower stipend of about $14K Canadian. So, to get that money, I had to TA for about two semesters every year and then do a research assistantship in the summer. I was a master’s student for a year, and then I bumped up to be a PhD. I ended up getting three provincial scholarships in Ontario that bumped my stipend up to $25K, which is only a little bit higher than the base stipend for a PhD student. So, with that stipend, we actually have to pay tuition out of it. So, not all of it gets to go to living. You also have to pay your tuition out of the money that they give you. So, the actual amount that I lived off of was much smaller than the stipend that I got <laugh>.

07:14 Emily: Yeah. Well, let us know, do you remember the numbers on that? Like after paying the tuition, what amount were you living off of? And then give us some context for, like, how does that compare to the local cost of living?

07:26 Haley: I don’t know the exact numbers, but tuition was about $2,000 a semester, I would say, for about $6,000 a year. So, when I was on my original master’s stipend, I only had maybe $8K <laugh>, which is a little <laugh> insane. I had a lot more to live off of once I was in the PhD program. So, when I was a master’s student, I actually had to work, but there were some problems with the department not wanting me to work and kind of threatening to take away the stipend that was paying like my tuition and my rent.

Challenges to Supplementing the Stipend

08:09 Emily: Yeah. I mean, the numbers that you’re throwing out there sound incredibly low. It’s not surprising at all to me that you would, you know, seek other sources of income. Was that something that your peers were doing as well? Was the department also like threatening other peers who were working, or how were they making ends meet?

08:27 Haley: A lot of the other people in my department had like side gigs that they’d only do every once in a while. A lot of people hid if they had part-time jobs. Unfortunately, I worked close to the university and some of them saw me working, so that didn’t work out too well <laugh>.

08:48 Emily: How was that resolved? Did you have to give up the side job?

08:53 Haley: Some of the admins helped me apply to the provincial scholarships. And once I got the provincial scholarships, I was kind of told to get rid of the part-time job.

09:03 Emily: And would you say that when you had that higher $25K minus, okay, let’s say $19K per year stipend during the latter part of your PhD, was that enough to survive, or did you feel like you would’ve worked more if you were allowed to?

09:18 Haley: I probably would’ve worked more, but I think I would’ve had trouble doing that with the mental illness, because there were a lot of things that that impacted. Like my eating, my sleeping, my social life were also impacted by finances, and moreso by the mental health problems.

Mental Health Impact on Money Mindset

09:41 Emily: Yeah. Let’s talk about that more now. So, you had an undiagnosed slash untreated mental health condition at that time. So, how was that affecting how you handled your finances?

09:54 Haley: So, I have a psychotic disorder that causes me to have delusions and hallucinations that are usually really disparaging and kind of controlling. So, let’s say, for instance, when I got accepted into the master’s program, my mom made a comment that my brothers paid for their second degrees. And that kind of morphed in my mind to my parents won’t help me at all, so don’t ask them. Even when I tried to apply for like student loans, I kind of got it in my head that I would never be able to pay them back. So, it was kind of like a brick wall to actually apply for that. There were other things in my life, like I couldn’t eat certain foods because I thought I’d get really sick and stuff like that. So, it was essentially that I couldn’t really do anything to help my situation because my brain would tell me, like, you can’t actually do this.

10:58 Emily: Wow. Yeah. I had not like, thought about that or realized that was a potential, you know, symptom that some people could be experiencing. So, thank you for sharing that. I do a lot of like, how do we find workarounds on this podcast? Or like breaking through like your money mindset stuff. But like when you’re dealing with a serious mental health condition, that’s simply not an option without higher-level treatment, right? Which you eventually got, and we’ll get to that. And so, how then also did having such a low income during graduate school affect your ability to get diagnosed or treated?

11:33 Haley: I started to have psychotic episodes during my third year of my undergrad. And at that time, I went to go see a doctor and that doctor gave me antidepressants, which there was a co-pay for. And he wrongly sent me home without doing any more assessment and essentially told me, you might be developing schizophrenia, we’ll see <laugh>, which is not the best thing <laugh>. So, I was already on a very small budget when I was in undergrad. My parents paid for like my tuition and my rent. So, I was never in a situation where I would be homeless, but I was still in a situation where I didn’t have that much money. If I were in that situation now where I’m on my antipsychotic and my antidepressant, the antidepressant is maybe a couple dollars a month, but if I didn’t have benefits my antipsychotic would be over $200 a month.

12:43 Haley: So, part of the reasons why I stopped taking the medication at that point was, one, that it caused pretty severe hallucinations, more than I had before I got on the medication, because it was the wrong one. And the other thing was that I didn’t necessarily want to pay for it <laugh> because it was making me feel worse. So, I was kind of in denial that I needed them when I was in grad school, because I could no longer tell if I was feeling well, or if I was sick. Everything just kind of melded together. So, in terms of the impact of having a really low budget in grad school, I couldn’t eat properly. I maybe spent $30 a week on food, and I pretty much ate the same things all the time. Like rice, lentils, beans, and apples.

13:48 Haley: I was so worried about things that I also didn’t sleep. And by that I would mean I would be in the lab for maybe 16 hours a day and I’d go home and sleep for four to six hours. And one of the big things about controlling psychosis is that you need to get enough sleep. So now, I actually need close to eight to 10 hours on average. So, that was a pretty big impact. And it certainly didn’t help the delusions that I couldn’t get financial help <laugh>. It was kind of like a feedback loop.

14:27 Emily: I was just going to say that sounds exactly like a negative spiral, right? Like you are having tight money issues, so you forgo the medicinal and also other forms of self-care that maybe were somewhat available to you. And then your mind is also telling you that you can’t access or don’t deserve those things. And then it loops around again. So yeah, that sounds horrible.

Financial Stress and Sacrifices on a Low Stipend

14:56 Emily: You just mentioned living off of a really small, like food budget, for example. So, were there other things that you didn’t spend on that you forwent spending on to make that really low stipend work?

15:10 Haley: I didn’t go out very often and kind of avoided any social situation where I might have to pay for stuff. Particularly in my first two years. After my first two years, I moved somewhere with a better cost of living. I kind of filled my time only with work because I couldn’t really afford to have hobbies <laugh>. At one point when I decided to move in my second, third year, I had to give up a cat that was kind of my emotional <laugh> animal at that time, because I couldn’t move them across the country to where I was working. I didn’t go home for Christmas, and I barely saw my family because I really couldn’t afford to go on a bus or go on a plane. I didn’t take a vacation throughout my entire PhD. I didn’t date anyone during my entire PhD. And I avoided buying anything other than food. So, I would wear clothes until they like physically fell apart. Same with shoes. I’d wait until I really, really had to. So, I essentially forgo like anything that would be making me kind of happier <laugh>. So, it really wasn’t ideal.

16:39 Emily: Yeah. I realized that I kind of phrased that question as like, “Oh, what are the great strategies you used?” Not that I meant it that way, but this is not at all a laudable list, right? This is all a list of things that caused you to become even more unhealthy. And again, in that spiral that we were just talking about, and to not be able to break out of it. Like having an injection of some extra money, I mean, it would also help if your mind were, you know, allowing you to spend on these things, but having some extra money would’ve helped your general mental health, but also specifically your condition so much. It’s so obvious that that would be the case. I’m just like hearing a picture of you like drowning during graduate school. Financially, mentally. And I’m wondering about the people around you, like your advisor or other people in your department. Like, was there anything that they could have done? I’m asking this in a way of like, what can other people listening to this, take away if they see a peer or someone in their program that is to say, maybe they’re a faculty member or someone else who has a bit of power in the situation too. Like what, what should they have been doing or what could they have done to help you out of this spiral?

What Could Have Helped?

17:59 Haley: In some ways, there wasn’t really much people could do. In terms of what the department did, they tried to help me get scholarships, which did make the situation a lot better. There is an opportunity to do like graduate assistant work that I did for two summers. That was really helpful. Maybe having like emergency funds that are easy to apply to would be very useful too. But a lot of the time, I didn’t think that my, I couldn’t tell that my situation wasn’t normal <laugh> because a lot of my peers had similar problems. Probably not to the same mental extent, but in terms of money, it was pretty common. And maybe just increasing the stipend would make a big difference. I checked the department’s website and it looks like the PhD stipend has increased, but the master’s stipend is still quite low. But that would be what I would think of when I think of what the department could do to help people.

19:09 Emily: Absolutely. I think pay graduate students more. Pay graduate students enough that they don’t experience the things that you mentioned, like not being able to go home and visit your family members, never going out socially if there was, you know, a possibility you might spend money. In addition to just being like the compassionate thing to do for students who are under your charge, as well as, especially if you’re not going to allow them to work or whatever, they’re not developing. You were not developing as a scholar in the way you could have. You could have blossomed even more, had you been sufficiently financially supported. Same goes for your peers too. So, it’s just really, it’s very hard for me <Laugh>, I’m sure for the listeners as well, to hear how much you were struggling and how big of a difference, you know, a few more thousand dollars a year from your department would’ve made, and what exactly is tying their hands to make that not happen? If their goal is to develop scholars and PhDs, they could do that even better by financially supporting them better. That’s how I view it.

20:12 Haley: Yeah.

Commercial

20:15 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. I have set a big goal for my business and our U.S. PhD community broadly. My goal is for every graduate student, postdoc, or postbac in the US who is not having income tax withheld from their stipend or salary to be offered training on how to 1) estimate their future income tax liability, 2) determine if they are required to pay quarterly estimated tax, and 3) prepare to pay their tax bill or bills through setting up a system of self-withholding. I provide just such a training, which is my asynchronous workshop titled Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. Now, some universities, institutes, or funding agencies already offer such a training, and they have no need to work with me. But others won’t allow their employees to touch the topic of taxes with a 10-foot pole, and that’s where working with me can really benefit everyone. Would you please send me an email and tell me which camp your university falls into—or if it’s somewhere in between? You can reach me at [email protected]. Furthermore, let me know if you want to take Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients for free or think that the cohort coming in this fall should, and I’ll reply with how you can help make that happen. I look forward to hearing from you! Now back to our interview.

Ending the Negative Spiral

21:56 Emily: So, how did you ultimately end this spiral that you were in? Did you get on medication? Did you see different doctors? Was it a matter of graduating? Like what happened?

22:06) Haley: Graduating was actually the worst thing that happened <laugh>. So, I had to pay for my ticket to do my defense because I was living in Alberta at the time and I had to come back to Ontario, and that actually completely depleted my bank account. If I hadn’t gotten a job pretty much right away, I would not have had a place to stay and I wouldn’t have been able to go home at all. I ended up going through an even bigger spiral where I entered like acute psychosis. Like the CRA is after me <laugh> kind of psychosis or people are actively following you and you’re hearing complete conversations and more disparaging comments and so on. I essentially kept working for almost six months with acute psychosis. And then I finally hit a point where I couldn’t do it anymore and I realized that there was something incredibly wrong.

23:21 Haley: So, I ended up going to the doctor who tried to put me on an antipsychotic, but I essentially spiraled further when I got onto the antipsychotic because it was essentially too late to be putting me on it in an outpatient location. So, I ended up having to go to the ER twice. The first time there wasn’t a psychiatrist. So, they sent me home. The second time, I was essentially really dehydrated, only weighing 80 pounds and completely out of reality <laugh> essentially. So, the psychiatrist put me into inpatient care and I stayed there for a month where they put me on medication and I essentially slept because I was burnt out from work and the PhD. So, it’s taken probably two and a half years to get on the right medication and recover fully from that.

24:23 Haley: Starting a postdoc that actually pays me enough to live has been pretty helpful <laugh> in that because I’ve been able to start eating more healthy. I’m not as worried. And I have the psychosis under control between medication and therapy. So, I’m sleeping a normal amount. I’m eating a normal amount. I’m exercising because I can afford to go to the gym and like go to spin class and stuff like that. One of the weird things is I actually got out of the grad school with absolutely no debt because I couldn’t actually apply for the loans. Like my head would not let me apply for them. So, I ended up getting out with absolutely no debt, but also absolutely no money <laugh>. So, I was really lucky that I was offered a job right away. After I was hospitalized, I had to take three months off. So, I actually lost the job that I had gotten and I had to find another job, which I had to move across the country for. And then after that job, I had to move across the country again, which has always been kind of a financial burden, but that’s just kind of how my job goes <laugh>. But I’m doing much, much better than I was doing in grad school and have a lot of things more under control.

Paying Off the Mental Health Debt

25:57 Emily: I am so glad to hear that you’re in a much better place right now. Although it does seem to me that it’s taken a long, long time to get there. I mean, you mentioned that you came out of graduate school with no financial debt, but you had a debt to yourself of another kind, right? Of having not taken care of yourself and had been on the medication and doing the sleeping and the eating and all that stuff. So like, you still had to come out of that depth of the, you know, of care that you needed to get back up to the point you’re at now, the stable and healthy point.

26:32 Haley: I would say that I would’ve rathered have the financial debt than the mental debt. So like, my suggestion would be if somebody’s in my situation to go get the help you need and get the financial help that you need, even if it means taking out loans. Because it’s much better to have the financial debt than the mental health debt.

26:57 Emily: I totally agree. And I’m really glad to hear you say that. I don’t want to criticize other people either in their financial situations, but when you’re in a unique time of life, like being a graduate student and it is ideally time-limited and you’ll move on to having a better-paying job later on, it can, in some situations make sense to take out debt and some people feel so debt-averse that they, and I’m not saying you did this because you had this mental health condition, but they put themselves into debts of these other kinds. They’re not eating properly. Maybe they are not living in a safe situation. Again, I don’t want to sound like I’m criticizing them, but they do as a graduate student, at least in the U.S., have the option of taking out debt and alleviating some of that.

27:43 Emily: And so, I just want them to think about that as a legitimate option and not something that’s completely off-limits to them to help this short-term cash crisis that they’re in during graduate school. Again, the responsibility for that as we were talking about earlier falls much more on the programs underpaying people. That’s on them, rather than the people who are being underpaid. But that is a way out of a very difficult short-term situation. And like you said, you would’ve rather had a bit of money to pay off than having these years and years that it’s taken you to recover from the state that you were in by the end of graduate school.

Save Money and Study the Financial Side of Grad School

28:20 Emily: Do you have any other advice for prospective graduate students who are walking into programs like you did your master’s, your PhD program, who are potentially being radically underpaid compared to the local cost of living?

28:37 Haley: I would mostly work for a while and save money before you go to grad school. I wasn’t in a situation where I thought I could do that, but if I could do it again, I probably would’ve started working right away and then decided if I wanted to do grad school after I’ve made a little bit of money <laugh>. Make sure that whatever program that you want to go into does have a fair stipend. I didn’t even think of that when I joined grad school, but that should have been a much bigger consideration than what it was for me because I’m first-generation. I didn’t think that they would give me a stipend that I couldn’t live off of <laugh>.

29:17 Emily: Misplaced trust.

29:19 Haley: Yeah <laugh>. I would maybe do a little more digging on the financial side before starting grad school.

29:27 Emily: Yeah. I think those are great suggestions for someone considering graduate school. Definitely look into the stipends versus the local cost of living. I have a website that helps with that. At least if you’re in the U.S., which is called PhDstipends.com. So you can see what other graduate students actually report as being their income, not what the programs tell you they’re paying. Those might be two different things until you get the offer letter, at least. So you can kind of do some pre-research on the programs that you’re planning on applying to, to see if they’re paying a living wage or not. And like you said, I think a lot more people should be considering working for a decently-paying job for a year or two or three before they start graduate school to build up some kind of financial safety net so that they don’t have to do things like you were just mentioning, the cost of moving multiple times across the country.

30:13 Emily: That’s very significant. And if you end up paying for that, let’s say with like credit cards, because you don’t have the savings or cash to do it, then you’re kind of starting graduate school like already knocked back, already knocked onto your back foot, like financially, because you’re now having to pay down credit card debt in addition to living on this very, very small stipend. So instead, if you can have that savings, so, so helpful to just kind of get out ahead of these issues. So, that’s great advice for prospective graduate students. And thank you for giving that.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

30:43 Emily: I do end my interviews with a standard question that I ask all of my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve talked about in the course of the interview, or it could be something completely new.

30:55 Haley: If you’re a postdoc, I’d start saving and get a retirement fund and maybe a rainy day fund. Because postdocs are fairly short for most people, and you’re probably going to have to move again and things come up. So, it’s good to start saving once you can start saving after grad school. And kind of the same advice for looking at a postdoc. Make sure the salary is enough to live comfortably on before you agree to do it. It’s not a nice thing to accept a salary and then get to the city and realize that you can’t really live there <laugh>. And maybe try to negotiate your salary if you can.

31:45 Emily: All wonderful advice. I’m recalling actually, when my husband got a postdoc offer in Boston, we were living in Durham, North Carolina at the time. So kind of moderate cost of living to high cost of living. And we calculated it after accounting for the cost of living change between those two cities. He was actually being offered effectively less money than he had made as a graduate student with that postdoc position in Boston. And he did try to negotiate and he got them to increase the offer very, very slightly. And ultimately did not take that offer and finances were, you know, a part of that decision. And so, I totally agree with you, especially if you have not yet lived in a city, whether it’s for grad school, for postdoc, anything else. You need to really investigate what the cost of living is because you just don’t know until you actually live there. And by the time you accept an offer and move, it’s too late <laugh>. You need to do as much as you can in advance. So, Haley, thank you so much for being willing to give this interview. I think it was a really important conversation that the listeners are going to benefit so much from. So, so glad to hear you doing well. And thanks again for volunteering!

32:50 Haley: Thanks for having me!

Outtro

32:58 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? I have collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance…but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.