Personal Finance for PhDs

Live a financially balanced life - no Real Job required

PhD with a Real Job

How to Cultivate a Personal Brand to Land Your Next Job or Launch Your Business

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Gertrude ‘Gee’ Nonterah on why and how PhDs and even graduate students should develop a personal brand. Strategically using LinkedIn and Twitter can play a big role in attracting opportunities, including catching the eyes of job recruiters. Gee developed a personal brand that helped her transition from her postdoc position into freelance writing and teaching at a community college. Gee and Emily discuss time management when you are getting a side business off the ground and Gee’s upcoming pivot in her business.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Gee: You know, in marketing, going back to marketing, they are power words, right? And so, you know, throwing one power word into your value proposition is helpful because like you said, it creates some kind of intrigue and like, Oh, I want to, I want to know more about that. So for me, that power word was sizzling because when you get sizzling, it’s kinda like, Ooh, something really like delicious, or I don’t know, but you usually think about that. So definitely you know, coming up with a power word within that value proposition, within that tagline can be helpful as well.

Introduction

00:38 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode six, and my guest today is Dr. Gertrude “Gee” Nonterah on why and how PhDs, and even graduate students, should develop a personal brand. Gee explains how strategically using LinkedIn and Twitter can play a big role in attracting opportunities, including catching the eyes of job recruiters. Gee developed a personal brand that helped her transition from her post-doc position into freelance writing and teaching at a community college. We discuss time management when you’re getting a side business off the ground and Gee’s upcoming pivot in her business. I have an exciting personal update for you before we dive into this week’s episode. My husband and I submitted our very first offer to buy a home. It felt like a really rushed decision because we were not at all logistically ready to make an offer.

01:39 Emily: We had no agent, no financing, nothing. We saw a unicorn home pop up in our safe search on Friday morning. By Friday night, we had a Redfin real estate agent and were pre-approved for a mortgage. On Saturday, we saw the house. It was booked up with appointments every half an hour all day. So other people definitely recognized its charms. On Sunday, we worked with our agent to submit an offer. Like many other PhDs and millennials, generally, we have put off homeownership for a long time. We are now 35 and have two kids. Basically, we are trying to make our first home our forever home. So there’s a lot of pressure on the process. One of the reasons I’ve been talking so much lately on the podcast about buying a first home during grad school or in one of those earlier career phases is because I wish that I had gotten this first home purchase out of the way before now.

02:33 Emily: So I’d have more experience and insight by the time I reached this forever home purchase. Anyway, I’m recording this on Monday morning. So we don’t yet know if our offer will be accepted or if we’ll do this all over again the next time a unicorn goes on the market. At least we’ll be better set up the next time to make an offer with more of the logistics in place and having been through it once. Thanks for indulging me in that update. I’ll keep you posted periodically regarding this new adventure.

03:01 Emily: This coming Saturday, February 13th, is the next live Q&A call for the workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (And Understand It, Too!). If you are a funded grad student in the U.S. and a U.S. citizen or resident for tax purposes, this workshop is for you. The IRS will begin processing tax returns on February 12th. So this is an ideal week to get that return ready to submit if you want to get your refund ASAP.

03:28 Emily: Go to pfforphds.com/taxworkshop to join the workshop and plan to attend the live Q&A call on Saturday to clear up any remaining questions that you have. Saturday, February 13th is also the deadline to join the winter 2021 session of The Wealthy PhD. This is a perfect time of year to work on a big financial goal, especially if you decided that 2021 was your year to get on top of your finances or are anticipating a career transition in the coming months. I hope you will consider joining the session if you want to gain financial inspiration, accountability, and actionable knowledge. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD.

Book Giveaway Contest

04:14 Emily: Now it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In February, 2021, I’m giving away one copy of The Simple Path to Wealth by JL Collins, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for April, 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during February will have a chance to win a copy of this book. I’m super excited to read The Simple Path to Wealth in the book club because, confession time, I have not read it before. I’ve recommended the book on many occasions on the strength of the author’s blog and its reputation, but this will be my first time through. I’m looking forward to learning alongside you. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of February from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Gertrude Nonterah.

Would You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

05:24 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Gertrude Nonterah, we’ll call her Gee during the interview. And we are going to discuss something that I don’t think I’ve covered before on the podcast, which is personal branding for academics, as well as Gee’s side hustle as a writer. And so I’m really excited about both these topics, and Gee will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

05:47 Gee: Yes. Thank you, Emily so much for having me on your show. I’m really excited to be here. So, as Emily said, my name is Dr. Gertrude Nonterah. I got my PhD in microbiology and immunology from Temple University School of Medicine back in 2015. And ever since then, I’ve been living in San Diego, California. I started out as a post-doc, worked as a post-doc for about two years and 11 months, and ever since have essentially been running my business. I also do teach at a community college, I have been doing that since the beginning of 2020. But yeah, I’m super excited to be here and to talk about personal branding and leveraging that as an academic.

Defining Personal Branding

06:32 Emily: Okay. So let’s start with a little bit of a definition, because it’s not a term that’s necessarily familiar to everyone. What is personal branding?

06:39 Gee: Right. And I think, you know, there is no one strict definition for personal branding except to say your personal brand is how you want people to perceive you or how you want to be known. And that’s the simplest way I can describe it because we could go into all the technical definitions of branding and all that. But the easiest example that comes to mind is every time you drive into a city and you see those two yellow golden arches that signify McDonald’s, you know it’s McDonald’s. Nobody needs to tell you that a McDonald’s exists there. You just know from seeing that big yellow M that there’s a McDonald’s close by, right? And that’s because over the years McDonald’s has done a great job of branding who they are, what their symbols are, and so on and so forth. And so bringing that to a more personal side, right, where you’re saying, okay, here I am. Here are my qualifications, here are my degrees, here’s my personality. And this is what I would like to be known for and to be hired for potentially if you plan on working in the corporate world. And even if you plan on building a business online or having a side hustle, it is important to build that personal brand, I believe, because it is a foundation that opens the door for many things. And as we go along in this discussion, hopefully I’ll be able to share some stories myself that will be helpful.

Personal Branding in Academia and Beyond

08:07 Emily: Yes, please do. So I think it’s pretty maybe obvious why someone who’s starting their own business would want to cultivate a personal brand. But what about for someone who is a scientist or another kind of academic who wants to either stay in academia or get another kind of employee job, you know, doing what they were trained to do for their PhD? Why is personal branding relevant for that person?

08:27 Gee: Yes. And I realized that this is such a newer concept in the world of academia, right? But I think it’s become important for a few reasons. The reason its become important is because there are a lot of people just like you, even though, you know, those of us that have PhDs only make up about 2% of the population worldwide, right. There is an increasing and growing number of people who are graduating with the same degrees as you. People who have the same qualifications, who have the same educational background, and so on. Right? So, it’s all the same. So I see personal branding as a way for PhDs and academics to stand out from the crowd, right? Because these days when recruiters receive resumes, all they receive is a piece of paper that rattles off your qualifications, right? But then here’s the thing. A lot of recruiters go on places like LinkedIn to check you out before they even give you a call.

09:26 Gee: Right? And imagine being that recruiter, put yourself in the shoes of the recruiter going on, you have 10 resumes, you go onto LinkedIn, and then you find that there’s this one person that’s super active in the topic that, you know, they’re looking for employment in. They’re sharing articles, they’re making very intelligent comments, they’re engaging in conversation. And then the other nine are nowhere to be found, even though they may have a LinkedIn profile, they’re nowhere to be found, right? Just put yourself in the shoes of that recruiter. Which one of these people would you tend to go with? Especially if all their resumes, everything being equal, what makes one of these individuals, I don’t know, of course there’s the interviewing process, which helps, but to be honest, at the very beginning, people are skimming through resumes. People are skimming through your LinkedIn profile or any other online profile you have and personal branding can really help you set yourself apart. Even if you think you’re working in a super boring topic and nobody would be interested in, I really do think that by building that personal brand and building that brand, that people begin to recognize in your field, you can set yourself apart and set yourself up for success as an academic slash PhD, whether you want to stay in academia or not.

Personal Branding Will Make You Memorable, Online or In-Person

10:50 Emily: What I’m taking from that description is that personal branding will at minimum help you be memorable to anyone who comes across your, well, hopefully resume as well, but definitely LinkedIn profile. Or even like in-person networking, maybe when that happens again, or Zoom networking, we’re recording this in December, 2020. Even with in-person networking, I’m sure there’s a way to express your personal brand, even, you know, verbally or with your business card, do people use still use business cards? I’m not sure, but in the way that you interact with someone at like in a networking like capacity, you know, people talk about having like an elevator pitch ready for, you know, what you do, like a one-sentence and you know, a one minute and so forth, that probably also all plays into personal branding. Right?

11:35 Gee: Absolutely. Absolutely, Emily. So like you said, you know, when, as we’re recording this, we’re in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic and nobody is going anywhere, right? We’re not going to do any networking meetings anywhere. And so we don’t even have that opportunity right now. And so I think that this is actually the perfect time for you to start building that strong online brand, because now you don’t have that opportunity. So, you know, in a way, building that run online is your way of networking until we can get back to in-person networking, but yeah, absolutely. A personal brand doesn’t necessarily have to be online. You know, online tools are just easier to access these days in general. But yes, for sure, even as a person that you meet, you know, as somebody that goes in-person networking, you can absolutely establish that personal brand with in-person meetings. Yes.

How Do You Start Developing a Personal Brand?

12:32 Emily: So I really love the idea of using this, you know, COVID-19, the stay at home order period to cultivate specifically your online, personal brand. And then once other opportunities are available to you, you know, take what you’ve developed there and figure out how to express it, you know, in other ways, once in-person, you know, stuff is available again. So would you say that’s the first and like kind of most accessible way to start developing a personal brand is, you know, your website, your LinkedIn profile, and so forth?

13:01 Gee: Well, I think, I think that there’s a step before that. And the step before that is really figuring out what you want your personal brand to be. Now, I believe in building an authentic personal brand, but you know what I mean by what do you want to be known for? What do you, you know, determining what your personal brand is going to be is really thinking about the topics for instance, that you want to establish yourself in. So let’s say that you’re working on lung disease at a major, you know, medical research center, right? And you are on your way out about to get that PhD. What other, have you published papers on the topic? What did you find, you know, as long as your PIs is willing to share after you publish, after you publish, you absolutely share. Right? I know PIs are very protective of research ideas when it hasn’t been published yet.

Think About Your Personality

13:52 Gee: Right? So but if you really want to stay in that lung research lane, then that’s one thing that you can write down. I want to, I want people to associate me with lung research, for instance. Also another thing that I like to think about is your personality, right? Are you an extrovert? Are you an introvert? Are you somewhere in between? Right? It’s good to let that shine through. I know that as academics were really trained to kind of hold back on the personal part of our lives and not share that, but if there are causes you care, you know, you want to, you want to show that. And then if there are causes you care about, you know, you want to share that as well. So, you know, before you even jump into a website, before you even jump onto LinkedIn, sit down and actually write down, what do I want my personal brand to represent?

14:44 Gee: Do you know, there are people that have built a whole brand, not necessarily in academia, a whole brand around very brash talkers, right? And then there are people that have a more softer approach. There are people in between. So which one are you, and is that actually true to who you are? So once you sit down and determine what you would like to be known for so that you can leverage that to getting that dream rule and to getting those interviews and getting, you know, building those relationships with key people in your industry. You really want to sit down and think, what do I want to represent online? Right? And then once you determine that, you can craft everything else around that.

Create a Tagline or Value Proposition for Yourself

15:31 Emily: So I’m thinking, as you’re, as you’re speaking about this, tell me if I am going in the right direction here, I’m thinking of a person almost identifying like a tagline for themselves. Maybe you can give a couple of examples of that, but like I’m Dr. Emily Roberts. I, so for me, I guess my personal brand with Personal Finance for PhDs is I help early-career PhDs make the most of their money. So something really short and simple, easy to remember. Is that kind of what you’re thinking? Like, maybe give a couple examples of that, but then everything else can kind of support that tagline that you’ve identified for yourself.

16:07 Gee: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. So it’s, you know, you’re calling it a tagline and I like to think of it in business terms as a value proposition. Like, what do you, what value do you bring to the world, right? And so, I like to say that I write sizzling content for million-dollar health brands. Like that’s my little tagline that I have, because that’s what I do. I write, I write content for million-dollar health brands. Right. And so you know, whatever it is, you could have a tagline that says, you know, award-winning lung research, or upcoming excited, enthusiastic lung researcher or something. So yes, absolutely. You can choose a tagline for yourself, but it shouldn’t be a tagline that we have to like sit down and have to figure out it should, it should clearly communicate what value you bring to people, right?

17:01 Gee: So in my case, like in your case, you, you talk about Personal Finance for PhDs. It’s absolutely clear what it is that Emily talks about. So if I wanted to find a podcast or resources that help me as an academic with my personal finances, and especially knowing that academics tend to be not paid very well, you know I would go find Emily’s podcast, right? So you want to, you don’t want to be what’s the word you don’t want to be fancy about it. You want to be clear, you can make it a little cute, but make it clear as to what people can expect from your brand and what problems that you potentially solve.

The Power of Power Words

17:41 Emily: Yeah. And I think also going along with that, and this is something, I guess I’ve learned a little bit from like marketing is to give like some kind of intrigue or like a little bit of an open loop or something within that initial one second, you know, face that you’re presenting to the world. Right? Like you said, the word sizzling. Ooh, what does that mean? What does it mean to sizzle? I want to find out more about that, right? So does that like play into it as well? Like enticing people into engaging with you further.

18:09 Gee: You know, in marketing, going back to marketing, they are power words, right? And so, you know, throwing one power word into your value proposition is helpful because like you said, it creates some kind of intrigue and like, Oh, I want to, I want to know more about that. So for me, that power word was sizzling because when you get sizzling, it’s kinda like, Ooh, something really like delicious, or I don’t know, but you usually think about that. So definitely you know, coming up with a power word within that value proposition, within that tagline can be helpful as well. But not always necessary, though.

Don’t Wait Until You Have Your PhD, Start Now!

18:45 Emily: Okay. I feel like you’ve given us a lot to chew on already with this, with this topic of personal branding. Was there anything else you wanted to add onto that?

18:54 Gee: Yes. I wanted to add onto that, that you know, don’t wait. I see, because I teach at a community college. I get to interact with a lot of up and coming, brilliant students. And I recently actually did a presentation on essentially starting to build your personal brand as a student on LinkedIn. And I was amazed at how shocked they were that they could do that as students. And so this is something that a lot of students don’t know, whether they are undergraduate students, PhD, students, even people who have finished their PhDs don’t know about this. And I’m going to kind of plug in LinkedIn here. That LinkedIn is a really powerful place for you to start building your personal brand. It’s, it’s moved on past the days where LinkedIn was sort of like a place you went to dump your resume, and you hope that a recruiter would find you.

19:44 Gee: It is now a place where you can create content, for instance. You can share ideas. You can comment on other people’s blog posts. Twitter is another great place. That’s how me and Emily met. And you know, there’s Academic Twitter and stuff like that. And so getting involved in these niche communities that are discussing topics that you’re interested in and you’re researching can really begin to get you noticed. So don’t wait until, you know, you have your PhD. Start right now. There’s a lot of conversation happening and you should jump into those conversations right now.

Opportunities Once You Develop a Personal Brand

20:21 Emily: And just to kind of add onto that. Once you kind of develop a personal brand and are starting to be known in some niche area, what kinds of opportunities might come your way? You know, maybe you can give an example of how that’s worked for you when you developed your personal brand.

20:38 Gee: So, so good. So once I developed, I’m still developing my personal brand, but once people begin to know you and begin to know that you talk about, you love to talk about certain things. They essentially file you in their heads as that thing. Which is why, again, I talked about the McDonald’s double arches, that the moment you see that, you know, it’s a McDonald’s. So people file that away in their minds. And so when, for instance, an opportunity comes for you to be interviewed on a podcast that is relevant in your niche. People begin to recommend you, right? If there’s an opportunity to speak on a subject, and that opportunity is a paid speaking engagement, people are going to refer you and say, Oh, I know a great person that talks about personal finance, specifically for PhDs. I’d love to refer you to her, right?

Recruiters Pay Attention to Your Social Media

21:27 Gee: When you begin to build those networks and you begin to get known for a specific topic, people file you away in their minds. And when opportunities come, they will refer you without you even asking, without you even knowing that somebody referred you, you know, or somebody mentioned you. So those are some opportunities. Also, as far as jobs go, when you begin to build your personal brand and begin to establish yourself in the minds of people, recruiters do take notice of this. You know, don’t believe the hype that nobody’s watching your social media. People are constantly watching it. And especially on a place like LinkedIn where there may be recruiters looking for people like you to fill positions.

22:11 Gee: And so once you begin to speak on a specific subject or to be a thought leader. I don’t like to use that word very much, but become part of the conversation, I would say, in a particular niche, the recruiters in that niche begin to take notice, because as you begin to build networks online networks with other people, those people can also refer you. All those recruiters can discover you as somebody that is super active, because when people go on LinkedIn to search and LinkedIn has a search algorithm, for instance, and it pulls up people that are maybe relevant to who they are looking for. The more active you are on a platform like LinkedIn, the more likely you’ll show up in the first few search results. So if they’re looking for somebody like you to fill a position, guess what? You get first dibs because you showed up earlier up in the search. So those are just a few of the opportunities that can come. I definitely got some speaking opportunities, opportunities to be on podcasts, even job opportunities have come to me because of the personal brand. So it’s really powerful.

23:17 Emily: Yeah. And I would say, I, I have never done a lot with my like branding, but I think as you said, because the branding, the name of my business is so clear already as to what it is. There’s no ambiguity there. And because I’ve been working in this space for several years, I have also seen all the same things that you just mentioned of, you know, networks, my network, working for me to, you know, bring more opportunities my way, which is incredible. And I’m really thankful for that. So I can see that this, you know, this advice is wonderful for a job seeker, but it’s something that has to start much, much earlier than that. As you were saying, you know, while you’re a student, not too early, go ahead and start cultivating this. Now, maybe you don’t have to be like the most active on LinkedIn.

Pivoting to Something Adjacent

23:59 Emily: Like, you’re just saying, if you, if your goal is not at the moment to show up at the top of searches, but once you’re starting to think in that direction that you need to step it up, right? You need to, you know, become even more active in these ways to show up so that people can find your profile and so forth. But yeah, I can definitely see how this, start cultivating it immediately, basically. And I also have a sense that it’s okay to pivot this a little bit, you know, if your goals change or if you need to, you know, adjust what you’re looking for or what you want to be known for. I think that’s okay, actually. Like people might still have you filed away in their mind as one thing, but going to something adjacent is not too big of a switch, I think.

24:37 Gee: At all, you know, and, and I’ve been, you know, I’m both, you know, in the corporate world, as well as I have a side business. I’m writing and, you know, even creating eBooks and online courses. And I’ve made micro pivots all along that path, right? So I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t even think it’s such a big deal. I’ve even seen people switch completely, switch topics completely. And that’s fine. As long as you don’t switch up on us every six months, right? You know, stick with something for long enough for us to file you away in our minds. But yes, if your goals change, if let’s say, you know, you were working in biotech industry and now you want to go work, you know, as a lawyer. And so you’re pursuing a law degree, that’s fine. You know, it’s like you said, I love the word you use adjacent. Adjacent, but slightly different. It’s fine. It’s absolutely fine to change directions. And over time, people begin to fall in love, not just with your topic, but with you, too. And so they’ll follow along for the journey as well, even if it’s no longer relevant to them.

Commercial

25:45 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. If you know that you want support in accomplishing a big financial goal this spring, I recommend my group coaching program, The Wealthy PhD. You and I will meet one-on-one to identify and plot a course toward your big financial goal. Past participants have opened IRAs, set up systems of targeted savings, started budgeting, systematically implemented frugal tactics, and more. Every week for eight weeks, you’ll participate in a small accountability group that I facilitate. The group will help keep you on track to meet small weekly goals that add up to your big goal. Prospective grad students, this would be a perfect cycle to join as I and the other participants can give you a ton of support and financial insight as you interview and ultimately choose your PhD program. The deadline for registration for The Wealthy PhD is Saturday, February 13th, 2021. Visit pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD to learn more and register today. Now, back to our interview.

Gee’s Side Hustle: Writing

26:56 Emily: I’d love to pivot to talking more about your writing business and you enticed us earlier. So of course, we want to learn more about it. You know, when did you start doing that as a side hustle? How did it become, you know, one of your main things that you do now?

27:09 Gee: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I told you in 2015, I graduated from my PhD and we moved to San Diego, California from Philadelphia PA. And for those of you that don’t know the geography of the United States, Philly and San Diego are on two completely different ends of the U.S. Okay. And they’re also different in terms of the economics. And so when we moved here, we realized really quickly how everything was three or four times more expensive. So even the salary I was going to be getting as a post-doc, I was like, wow, I don’t think this is going to be enough. So, and it wasn’t, to be honest. And so I wanted to find a way to make some extra money. So, because I had been blogging for about a year at that point, I decided to, to somehow, you know, become a freelancer of some sort.

28:04 Gee: So the first thing I did was actually sell social media services. If you’ve listened to me talking on this interview so far, you can tell I’m quite the enthusiast when it comes to social media. I think it’s a powerful tool to build brands. I think it’s a powerful tool to sell your services and products, whatnots. You know, it’s a powerful marketing tool. Anyway, so I began to sell social media marketing services, and I was helping local businesses who are not even in the sciences. They were just local mom and pop businesses that I was helping to build a social media presence. I did that for about two years and then pivoted to freelance writing in 2017. So in 2017, I pivoted to freelance writing and I began to write content for actually personal finance. I wrote content for healthcare companies. I wrote content for e-commerce stores. And so anything I could get my hands on to write, I would write and I would get paid for it. And that became a great side business that allowed us to take care of the financial deficits we were facing with how expensive San Diego was. And, you know, the meager pay I was getting, I was grateful for the pay, but it was meager compared to the living standards here in San Diego. So that’s how I got started.

Wearing Many Hats as a Postdoc: Time Management

29:25 Emily: Yeah. I think that story will probably be familiar to a lot of people in my audience. It is, of course, something I cover quite a bit is in these transitions, how do you figure out is that pay going to be sufficient? Or what am I going to have to do to, you know, make ends meet in a city I’ve never lived in before? That’s a really difficult, you know, kind of nut to crack. And so I think you mentioned, you know, when you introduced yourself that you are, you’re teaching at a community college, you have this freelance writing business, did you wear any other hats, remind me?

29:55 Gee: Oh man, I’m a mom, I’m a wife, you’re all these, and those are full-time jobs. So, so yeah, absolutely. I did wear other hats. And I think maybe this kind of segues into talking about time management.

30:09 Emily: Yeah, please.

30:10 Gee: As far as side hustles and your job are concerned. Yeah. So I don’t think it’s fair to be working on your employer’s time. I think you should carve out time on your own time to do your side hustle. And by and large, I stuck with that. And so usually what would happen would be because I’m mom, because I’m post-doc, because I’m writer and wife, I would allow my, at that time, my son was younger, so he tended to go to bed early. And so by nine, he was in bed. And so between nine and about 11:00 PM or 12 midnight, I’d be working on on writing projects. I’d go to sleep, wake up around six or seven the following day, get ready to go to my postdoc job and then go do that, you know, shindig and then come back and then do the whole thing again.

31:00 Gee: So in those early years it was a lot of, it was, I didn’t have any free time. I hardly had free time. I was using every bit of time I could to to build up some side income so that we could, you know, keep up with the bills. Now, I will say that over time. Yes, it gets tiring, but it’s not going to be like that forever, you know, some motivational speech here, but it’s certainly not always going to be like that where you have to work around the clock. But I do believe that there are seasons of life where you have to make some sacrifices. And for sure, that was a season of life where I made some sacrifices so that, you know, that the bills and everything could get paid at home. So that’s how I manage my time, is I find, I usually worked at night on my side business whilst I worked my regular job during the day.

Time Management in the Present

31:54 Emily: Yeah, I think that is a function of the postdoc position is a full-time job, and it’s not paying you that well. So, you know, for your particular goals of living in a high cost-of-living area, you know, you had to put in the hours. And of course, when you were just beginning with your, you know, the social media stuff and then the freelance writing, you know, I’m sure you’ve increased your rates since then. So your pay was, you know, the lowest for the side for the side income at that point, since you were just starting, and you had the not very well-paid post-doc position. I imagine things look a little bit more rosy now for your time management. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

32:27 Gee: Yes. So right now, because we are, you know, with stay at home orders and, you know, having to social distance because of the pandemic, I’m mostly working from home. So now that dynamic is definitely different. I still work really hard. And I think even a little harder because you have to homeschool as well, right? but I am finding that it’s hard with time management, especially when you’re starting, but nowadays it’s not so hard. Because when I wake up in the morning, I know, like today I know I have this podcast. I know I have to upload certain documents because I have a book bundle sale coming up, you know? So, I do intentionally sit down and plan my days, because I realize if I don’t have anything on a, if I don’t put it on a calendar, it does not exist in my mind. It really doesn’t. So, I use my Google calendar religiously. You know, I also have a bullet journal that I use very diligently and I write down like top three things I want to do in a day. Do I always get everything done? No, but at least having it written down reminds me that it needs to get done. And even if it has to be a day late, I’ll get it done. But being organized in that sense, having Google calendar and then having my bullet journal has been life-changing to say the least. Yeah.

33:47 Emily: Yeah. I would also say for me, my time management skills have leveled up during the pandemic with the kids being at home. And yeah, I find the same thing that I need to assign myself tasks to do certain, you know, block scheduling, right. Like block out time for different things, because it does help keep me on track.

Future Plans for Gee’s Writing Business

34:05 Emily: So, Gee, what are your future plans for your writing business?

34:12 Gee: Yeah, absolutely. So actually this is so interesting because recently I recorded an episode where I was talking, a podcast episode where I was talking about pivoting away from freelance writing in 2021. So I am pivoting away from it because, first things first, I did get a new position with a company writing content still. So I’m still going to be doing that, still be writing content, just not in a freelance capacity anymore. But, I still have the personal brand that I built online. I still have my YouTube channel. I still have my podcast. There are people that are very tuned into that and very avid listeners and watchers of my content. So I’m going to keep doing that, producing my content. But one of the things that, you know, producing podcasts and creating YouTube videos or any kind of content online does for you is when you build this audience, usually at the point they want to buy things from you. So I do have e-books and digital products currently, and also, I, you know, they do ask for coaching and they like, okay, Gee, you’ve been doing this and I want you to coach me too. So I’m moving more into just selling digital products and doing coaching in the time that I do have where I’m not writing for the company that I’m going to be working with. But I am pivoting away from freelance writing, but not away from writing itself. And I’m excited for those new opportunities. Yeah.

Where Can People Find You?

35:40 Emily: Yeah. Congratulations on the new position. I mean there are definitely advantages to freelancing, but the stability is nice as well to know where your paychecks are going to be coming from. Will you please let people know where they can find you if they’ve really, you know, loved this interview?

35:55 Gee: Absolutely. So if you want to find me, I actually, the first place you can find me is I have a free newsletter that I send out every week. You can go to GeeNonterah.com/newsletter and you can download a free checklist of how to, if you’re interested in becoming a freelance writer, even if you’re not, you can sign up still. But one of the freebies I give away is this checklist whereby you can get your first paying client. I’m also very active on LinkedIn. So if you just type in my name, Gertrude Nonterah PhD, you’ll find me and also on Instagram. So @GeeNonterah you’ll find me there.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD?

36:34 Emily: Perfect. And Gee, I conclude all of my interviews with asking my guests, what is your best personal finance advice for another early-career PhD?

36:45 Gee: Oh man. I wish. So this is such a great question. It’s going to be slightly different from everything I just talked about, but I wish I knew more about investing when I was an early-career PhD. I wish I did. And so ask about your 401(k)’s ask about, you know, find out about IRAs, read about it, you know, listen to Emily’s podcasts, but investing is such a great way to make money that I feel like it’s the best hidden secret that is out in the open, you know? And so, don’t sleep on that. Even as, you know, your paycheck from your job is great, but really looking, and then your 401(k) is also good, but look into even investing for yourself and learning the ropes of investing because those can pay huge rewards. So that’s one thing I wish I knew and something I’m currently doing and something that I’m always telling people to, to look into, especially for those of us that are PhDs and you know, in our early careers as academics.

37:48 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. Obviously investing is one of my favorite topics to talk about. So I love that you brought it up. I’ll actually tell people who are interested in the crossover between what we’ve talked about today. If you are a side hustler, if you are a business owner, if you are self-employed and you were interested in investing for retirement and your IRA is not sufficient, and maybe you don’t have a, you know, 403(b) or 401(k) through your workplace, please check out my Community, Personal Finance for PhDs Community, because I have a course in there on retirement investing vehicles for self-employed people. So if you’ve maxed out your IRA because you have this fantastic side income going on, but you want to do more, I discuss the different options available to you as a business owner for retirement investing. So pfforphds.community, if you want to check that out.

38:35 Emily: Gee, this has been a fantastic interview. Thank you so much for giving it. I’m so glad we found each other on Twitter. Yes. Thank you so much for coming on.

38:43 Gee: Thank you so much, Emily.

Listener Q&A: Paying Off Debt vs. Investing

38:44 Emily: Now, onto the listener question and answer segment. Today’s question actually comes from a survey I sent out in advance of one of my university webinars this past fall. So it is anonymous. Here is the question. What is the balance between paying off debt now and investing some money elsewhere? I love these questions that are like, what is the most optimal financial step for me to take? It’s definitely a good sign that the questioner has some cashflow available to do one of these two things, investing or paying off debt. To answer these kinds of questions, I refer to the financial framework that I developed for early-career PhDs. So I’ll tell you what the framework has to say about this question, but just so you know, when I do work one-on-one with individuals, the framework is only a guideline and we do often find a more individualized solution. So this question presupposes that the thing to do with the money right now is paying off debt or investing.

39:48 Emily: However, my framework has three types of steps: debt, repayment, investing, and saving up cash. So the first thing for this questioner to do is to assess all these different areas of finances. How much cash do you have on hand right now, and what is it for? What are the different types of debt you have, including the interest rate and the payoff balance? And do you already have some investments going for you, or is this something you’re starting for the first time? The very first step in my financial framework is to put in place a starter emergency fund. That’s the fund that’s going to help you pay for life’s minor emergencies that happen on, you know, maybe like a yearly basis. Basically, it’s the fund that’s going to keep you from racking up credit card debt. So that amount of savings should be somewhere between $1,000 and two months of expenses, depending on how large your financial footprint is and your risk tolerance.

40:42 Emily: Step two in the framework is to pay off all of your high-priority debt. In my book, high-priority debt is credit card debt, even if it’s at a 0% promotional balance, IRS debt, and any debt that is above somewhere between six to 8% in interest rate. Where you fall in that six to 8% is up to you and your risk tolerance. Now, if your debt includes student loans that are currently in deferment, I would not put those in step two. I’d push them off to a later debt repayment step. So if the person asking this question has any kind of debt that is high priority, the answer to the question is pay off that high-priority debt completely. As soon as you can. Now, let’s say that person doesn’t have that type of debt or has already taken care of it. Step three, in the financial framework is to save up for near-term irregular expenses.

41:35 Emily: This would likely include setting up a system of targeted savings, which I talked about in season seven, episode 15. Once you have that cash savings in place, we’re ready for step four. Step four is to start to invest for retirement or to resume investing for retirement if that was on pause during those first three steps. Now, in most of the steps in my financial framework, you have to do a discreet thing, save up X amount of money, pay off XYZ debts. Step four is different because in step four, you’re going to get your savings rate up to a certain percentage, and then you can move on to step five, but you’re going to keep saving that percentage into your retirement accounts going forward. So let’s say that the questioner has paid off or never had any high-priority debt, and they’re investing up to a minimum level in step four.

42:25 Emily: Once they’ve done those two things, it’s time to move on to step five, which is another kind of debt repayment step. And as I said, there are eight steps overall in the framework. But most people I work with do tend to fall somewhere in those steps one to four range. So I hope this answer provided you with some insight into my process of deciding on which financial goal is optimal at any given time. You can find an ebook that I wrote all revolving around this financial framework called The Wealthy PhD inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. You can find the Community at pfforphds.community. So if you join there, you can read the ebook, The Wealthy PhD, and read all about this framework and how to use it. And if you want to go even further, we’re enrolling for my group coaching program, The Wealthy PhD, and the deadline to enroll is February 13th.

43:17 Emily: I do use this framework when I help everyone in the program decide on what their big financial goal should be during the program. Although, as I said earlier, when it comes down to working with an individual, we often, you know, tweak this framework for their personal preferences. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

43:45 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Curb Your Impulse to Keep Up with the Joneses

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Joy Lere, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant on the danger of “keeping up with the Joneses.” Joy explains how emotionally unsatisfying and financially damaging trying to keep up with the Joneses is and that contentment can only come from within yourself. PhDs anticipating future income jumps would do well to put off lifestyle inflation for a least a few years after their salaries increase, which will give them more career and lifestyle choices in the future.

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Links Mentioned in This Episode

keep up with the Joneses

Teaser

00:00 Joy: If you can understand that this idea of peer comparison, it is going to be ever-present, and it’s not so much that the environment or the people around you need to change. What needs to flip is the script in your mind, in terms of the mentality you have when looking to the people in your life.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 12, and today my guest is Dr. Joy Lere, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant. Our topic is the danger of keeping up with the Joneses. Joy explains how emotionally unsatisfying, and financially damaging, trying to keep up with the Joneses is, and that contentment can only come from within yourself. PhDs anticipating future income jumps would do well to put off lifestyle inflation for at least a few years after their salaries increase, which will give them more career and lifestyle choices in the future. This interview really hit home for me, as I reflected on my post-PhD life and finances and where my family is headed next. As you might have garnered from listening to previous episodes of this podcast, I had a pretty good handle on my finances by the end of grad school.

01:30 Emily: And I was truly satisfied with my lifestyle. I had defeated my Joneses. Or so I thought. Then, my husband and I moved to Seattle. We rented a relatively inexpensive apartment in a wealthy neighborhood. There’s a lot of tech money in Seattle, as I’m sure you know. Suddenly, I wasn’t comparing my lifestyle to that of other graduate students in a medium cost-of-living city, but to other full-fledged adults in a high cost-of-living city. I distinctly remember my first and hardest-hitting Jones moment in Seattle. Shortly after we had our first child, I joined a mother support group in my neighborhood. Our first meeting was in the home of our group leader, and each participant would rotate hosting subsequent meetings. I remember walking into our group leader’s house, which was gigantic, gorgeous, and immaculate. It was somewhat shocking to me. Plus, during the meeting, our group leader casually mentioned she was in the process of custom building another house in our neighborhood to move to the next year.

02:33 Emily: My heart sank, knowing that I would eventually host these mothers and babies in my small, dingy, undecorated apartment. That cheap apartment had been a strategic financial choice upon our move. We were following the advice to live like a grad student so that we could keep our retirement savings rate high while I got my business off the ground and we adjusted to parenthood. Even though we had good reasons for living in that apartment, those reasons paled for me, when I saw where and how my group leader lived. And I started questioning all our choices. That was my first big post-PhD Jones moment. I got past that feeling, kind of, eventually, for that situation, but now my husband and I are in the early stages of searching for our very first home to purchase. And I can sense myself starting to become aware again of the Joneses. Since buying a house in Southern California is such a big, expensive decision, I know I have to be really conscious about those feelings and influences. That’s why the subject of this interview was so timely for me. I hope it will be for you as well. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Joy Lere.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:50 Emily: I am just delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Dr. Joy Lere. She is a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant, such an interesting combination. So, I’m really happy to have her on the podcast today. We’re actually going to be talking about keeping up with the Joneses. Or rather, how not to keep up with the Joneses. So, Joy, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

04:11 Joy: Absolutely. It is a joy and a privilege to be here with you today. My name is Joy Lere. I am a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant. So, essentially I am someone who as a clinician works where Freud meets finance. So, I live and work outside of Napa, California, and I’ve a telemedicine practice where I see patients for psychotherapy. And I also work in specializing in consultation within the finance industry. So within that role, I’m providing support, training, education, coaching, and psychotherapy also to financial planners and financial advisors, because there are a lot of really exciting things happening within the industry where there’s more and more attention being given to the fact that people’s relationship with their money is not just a matter of math or economic theory. Money itself is emotional currency. So, having an understanding of human psychology and how that drives financial decisions is really starting to be integrated more and more into the world of finance.

05:33 Emily: Yes. Thank you so much for that description. Yes, of course, I have observed this trend as well. And I’m really excited to have you on. Actually, I did an interview some time ago with Dr. Daniel Crosby. So, we’ll link that from the show notes as well, since that was on a similar topic.

05:47 Joy: He is a good friend and just, he’s fabulous.

Tell Us a Little More About Your Education

05:52 Emily: Oh yeah, it was a wonderful conversation. Would you also tell us a little bit more about your education, because you’ve spent some time in academia as well?

05:58 Joy: Yes. So, I obtained my master’s degree while living abroad in the UK for a couple of years. And I decided after that experience and after starting my clinical work in England, that I wasn’t quite yet ready to be done with school. So, my husband is in the military. We made our way back across the pond. And then I went to graduate school at George Washington University and obtained my doctorate in clinical psychology while I was there.

Can You Define “Keeping Up with the Joneses”?

06:33 Emily: Yeah. Wonderful. Okay. So, our topic for today, keeping up with the Joneses. Probably a phrase that maybe everyone’s heard in the audience, but can you give a little bit more of a fine point on the definition?

06:45 Joy: Absolutely. So, this is a phrase that’s popularized in society, and it really speaks to the way that people look around their social spheres and circles, and look oftentimes at their peers and kind of benchmark their lives and their decisions to that. So, they are seeing something, often an outside image or kind of a curated facade. I think certainly social media makes this even more complicated for people today. And then they think to themselves, “Well, if they have that or they are making that lifestyle choice, that must mean I can, or I should.” So then, they make decisions based on what they are seeing around them.

Does “Keeping Up” Make Anyone Happier?

07:43 Emily: Does attempting to keep up with Joneses actually make anyone happier? You know, we’ll address the financial component of that in a moment, but does it do anything for us emotionally or socially to try to keep up with the Joneses?

07:58 Joy: I think really, being in the comparison trap just keep someone emotionally stuck. Because what is not happening when you’re telling yourself, “I need to be, I need to be doing that. I need to be getting farther ahead,” is you aren’t focusing and being centered from a place of being grateful for what you have and really having a sense of contentment. And when you think about someone’s financial life, when there’s this constant search and drive and need for more and more and more, that can lead to dangerous, destructive places. Being on a hedonic treadmill like that can be exhausting. And the truth is that when a lot of times people think, “Well, I will eventually catch up,” but oftentimes the goalpost just keeps on moving.

09:01 Emily: I was just going to say that the phrase is keeping up with the Joneses, right? It’s not hanging out with the Joneses and being at the same level as the Joneses. It’s just like it implied in the phrase itself is a continual striving, as you were just saying, which sounds totally exhausting. I really like that you make the point that we can also move these goalposts on ourselves. Like yeah. Maybe you caught up with, you know, Jones number one over here. Well, that just means you’re going to switch your attention to Jones number two and try keeping up in some other area.

09:32 Joy: I tell people, throughout your life, there will always be Joneses there. You went to graduate school with them. You looked around there and you were like, “Well, they’re doing this. That means, naturally, that’s what I should be doing.” They are always going to be in your workplace. They’re going to be on whatever street you live. So, you moved to the bigger house, the newer neighborhood. Well then there’s going to be someone else who ultimately has a little bit more. So, if you can understand that this idea of peer comparison, it is going to be ever-present, and it’s not so much that the environment or the people around you need to change. What needs to flip is the script in your mind, in terms of the mentality you have when looking to the people in your life.

The Hedonic Treadmill

10:29 Emily: Yes, such a wonderful point. You mentioned the term hedonic treadmill a couple of minutes ago, and I’m betting not everyone in my audience knows what that is. So, can you explain that a little bit further?

10:42 Joy: This idea that often times we’re running a race, we’re going after more, something better. There’s a desire for enough. And people think they are moving closer to the mark, but really you are just exhausting yourself on a treadmill, and there’s never a finish line. So, when you are caught in this cycle, you’re just going to keep running. And it ultimately is never enough. I think, I encourage people to reflect on this idea of what is enough. Who decides what it is, how much it is, how do you know you have it? You know, even how someone answers that question is, is enough a number? Is it a sense of security? Does the outside world get to decide what enough is? Or is that something that you determine for yourself? No, this is, this is good. I can stop. I can breathe. And I don’t have to continue to feel the need to be amassing more.

11:55 Emily: Mhm. I’m currently reading the book Your Money or Your Life for the very first time. This is inside the Personal Finance for PhD’s Community. We have a book club, so I’m reading it for the book club.

12:06 Joy: That’s fabulous.

12:06 Emily: Yeah, I’m surprised it took me so long to read actually, because of course it has been out for a couple of decades. But anyway, the concept of enough figures very prominently, the argument that the authors are making in that book about having, as you were just saying, determining for yourself, and it’s really about self-reflection and it’s not at all about looking around you at what anybody else is doing. You know, what it is to be content, be full in a sense, like in terms of thinking about your appetite. You’re full, but you don’t want to stuff yourself. You don’t want to go beyond this, you know, level of fullness or contentness or enoughness because it’s damaging not only to your finances, but also to you as a person to, you know, as you were just saying, continually strive to go and beyond, beyond, beyond. One aspect of the hedonic treadmill idea that I understand at any rate is that, maybe it’s a little bit similar to like addiction or like getting into that, but what you need to feel a pleasure hit from spending becomes higher and higher and higher because you become adapted every new spending level.

13:10 Emily: You know, you get to a new spending level, you’re like, “Well, this is fantastic. I have all these new experiences and stuff. It’s wonderful.” And then suddenly it’s just normal and it’s just you again. It’s just you, yourself. And then you have to go to a higher spending level to get that hit again. And that’s the sort of a mountain climbing, like that’s kind of the treadmill aspect of it, is that correct?

13:28 Joy: Yes. Yes.

Keeping Up with the Joneses Affects Your Finances

13:31 Emily: So, we were just talking about how this is not ever going to be emotionally satisfying. What happens to your finances if you are striving to keep up with the Joneses?

13:40 Joy: I think it, peer comparison when it comes to finances is so complex. And oftentimes it is very problematic because peers give you permission to sometimes spend in ways that you ultimately can’t afford. And sometimes there’s pressure or there’s fear of missing out. Now, when we look at this idea and this concept of keeping up with the Joneses, when we look at the financial state of affairs of the average American family, who is indebted, over-leveraged, all of these things, if you are then trying to keep up with someone who is overextending, you are then overextending yourself even more. So, it just perpetuates this problem indefinitely. My great-grandmother who lived through the depression, had this phrase that I love. And I never met her, but it was something that was instilled in my mom. And it was this: “Just because they have it, does not mean they can afford it.”

Just Because They Have It, Does Not Mean They Can Afford It

14:53 Joy: And that is something that so many people confuse. They look at, “Well, this is the house they’re living in. This is the car they are driving. These are the vacations they are taking. And so that must mean like that’s okay.” What they don’t see is what goes on behind closed doors. They don’t see the physical, the psychological cost of the stress that comes with carrying debt. They don’t see the impact of the work stress of the employment situation that person feels like they are trapped in because of the lifestyle that they are living. A lot of that stuff happens behind closed doors. But I tell people, so part of my job as a therapist is–I love my job–so often, I wake up and I’m like, “I truly believe I have the best job in the world because I get to sit behind closed doors with incredibly bright, driven people who are having conversations they aren’t having with anyone else in their lives.” So, I’ve sat behind closed doors with the Joneses. And let me tell you, their lives are not as rich or pretty or neat as most people think when you just see a public-facing persona.

16:28 Emily: Yes. That’s a wonderful phrase from your great-grandmother. And actually, it reminded me of something that my pastor from my church in North Carolina was preaching a sermon one time and was talking about this concept of keeping up with the Joneses. And I remember him saying, you know, if you’re going to follow sort of the the Christian way of handling money, you know, there’s certain things in the Bible, the layout of how you’re supposed to do this. He says, you’re going to be living multiple steps behind who you perceive to be as your peers. You’re going to be living a step behind because you’re not going to be leveraged with debt, at least outside of your mortgage or whatever. You are going to be living in step behind because you’re going to be giving. You’re going to be living a step behind because you’re going to be saving for your future as well.

You’re Going to Be Living Three Steps Behind

17:12 Emily: So, he was like, “You’re going to be living three steps behind, you know, who you perceive to be your peers in terms of like your career or whatever it is.” And that has really stuck with me too, that like, yes, it just, as you were saying, you don’t know how other people are handling, you know, as an outsider, you don’t know what’s going on inside their homes and how they’re really managing to live the lifestyle that you can perceive. And, you know, you brought up social media earlier. We have so many more, I think, potential Joneses in our life right now, because we have access, in a way limited access, to a lot more people from maybe a lot of our different stages of life and even people you don’t know. So, I’m sure that this just exacerbates this entire problem.

17:50 Joy: Yes. And I love what you brought up. You brought up something so important about lifestyle choices. If you do the things that most people do, you are going to get the things that most people get. You’re going to get average. And right now, financially average in our country is not a pretty picture. So, it really requires people to step back and ask, “Okay, what do I really want? And what do I want long-term?” In order to get ahead, you have, especially early on, our little choices compound over time. So, I will often explain to clients and people, if you can make, and this is especially applicable to, to students, to professionals. A lot of times, if you are entering a kind of employment, or you’re graduating, you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to start living the doctor life.” No, hold on.

18:56 Joy: If you can give it a couple of years of living like you are a broke grad student and what you can do with the savings during that time, when a lot of your peers are starting to make very different choices, what that can lead to for you in the long-term is huge. But that requires being able to say, “No.” It requires being able to tolerate, okay. Maybe you’re going to miss out on some things. But, if you can be willing to do things differently than other people, you give yourself a chance at having something bigger and better that most people will never achieve.

Commercial

19:44 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, a book club, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

Present Lifestyle Choices Impact Your Future Comfort

20:49 Emily: I’m really glad that you took the conversation in this direction, because it’s exactly where I wanted to go as well. Talking about, you know, when you have these large income jumps, you know, okay for PhDs, you finished graduate school, maybe you’re moving up to a post-doc. Hopefully, a decent jump in income there. Okay, you’re moving out of the postdoc or directly out of the PhD, you’re getting into a proper job. Hopefully, a big jump there. And maybe, you know, throughout your career, potentially there could be other big jumps as you switch, you know, employers or whatnot. So, a lot of my audience is still in graduate school or is still in training. And so, they’re still anticipating and looking forward to those large income jumps in the future. And of course, the advice you just brought up, you know, there’s versions of it. You know, live like a grad student, live like a college student, live like a resident. It’s basically just, keep that lifestyle, or as close to that lifestyle as you can, from your prior earning stage for at least a little while into that next one. And then as you said, you know, this can do fabulous things to your finances. So, can you elaborate on that a little bit more?

21:45 Joy: Absolutely. And I want to explain. I think something that people often don’t fully understand or account for is in school, or maybe early in your career, you have a picture of, “This is what I’m going to want. I’m on this linear trajectory, professionally.” But things change. Life circumstances change. Sometimes your dreams, your desires, opportunities can lead to different places. And, if you have made financial choices so that you have the freedom and flexibility to change your mind, if you want to at a later time, and not be locked in because of the debt you have and the lifestyle that you have settled into, that gives you a ton of freedom. So, I just really emphasize to students that the things you are doing with your money now in these first years of your career are huge. So, if you can just hold on and be a little bit more conservative in some areas, that can have huge implications for your financial life later on.

Saving During Graduate School

23:11 Emily: Yeah. I actually want to give an example from my own life here. It a little feels like I’m tooting my own horn, but I think it does illustrate what you were just talking about. So, when my husband and I were in graduate school, we did our PhDs at the same time. So, we were both on stipends, same time. We saved, you know, I’m into personal finance, right? So like I was figuring this stuff out early. I was figuring out saving, investing and paying off debt and doing all these things. And so I started that during graduate school. Whereas a lot of people, either one have no opportunity to start saving or investing during graduate school, just completely off the table based on either their going into debt for their degrees, or they’re just simply not paid even a living wage. That was not our case.

23:50 Emily: We were very fortunate. So, we were doing that saving. We, one, could, but two, we took the initiative to do it. We were figuring that out at that time. By the time we finished graduate school, we had amassed quite a decent nest egg. And, you know, one, one attitude could have been during that time, “Well, you know, I may as well just spend what I have have, I don’t really need to save right now because I’m going to have this big income jump in the future. And, you know, it’s going to take care of itself at that time. I won’t worry about investing until, you know, later on.” But because we took that other route of starting as early as we could with, you know, saving and investing and so forth, we had a decent nest egg built up by the time we finished graduate school. That enabled one, my husband to take a job at a startup, which he had never anticipated doing and was completely, you know, really nervous about that.

24:30 Emily: We’re sort of conservative with our careers. And so we were like, “Wow, you know, this good job could go at any point.” But it was just such a perfect fit for him. We were like, “How can he pass this up?” You know, we’ll take the risk. We have the nest egg, we can do that. We can take that risk of him taking that kind of job. Secondarily, I was able to start my business, which meant, you know, just completely going off a different track from, you know, the normal job thing, which is a fantastic opportunity and similarly, very good fit for me. So, I feel like our life, you know, career satisfaction levels were much higher than they would have been had we not been in a financial position at that time to be able to make that choice. And the reason we were in that position was because years earlier we had started this process not really knowing that was how it’s going to work out. You know, we didn’t realize, you know, these opportunities came our way and we could take advantage of them because of the preparation we’d done before that point.

25:19 Joy: Absolutely.

How to Cultivate Contentment in the Now

25:21 Emily: So, I’m thinking about a graduate student, probably. Maybe a post-doc, who is currently maybe even practicing not keeping up with the Joneses. Because they probably have a lot of Joneses in their lives that they couldn’t possibly keep up with. Right? Like it’s just not even a feasible thing for them to do right now. So, what would you say to that person about how to still cultivate contentment in their life when they know they can’t even possibly play the game with the Joneses right now, and also how to maintain that once maybe they are able to get in the game once their income is higher?

25:57 Joy: I think, you know, this idea of game and even if we bring it back to the race. if you can understand everyone is playing a different game, and if you can focus on running your own race and just stay in your lane, that is going to set you up for success. Now, I don’t think that if you are not trying to keep up and you’re making a concerted effort around that, that doesn’t mean your life needs to be devoid of fun and human connection. I think, I encourage people to be creative. You can be the one driving the conversation, making suggestions. And the truth is, sometimes if you are maybe doing things or suggesting things to your social circle that are not going to be exorbitantly costly, there are probably going to be some people who are really relieved. Because here’s the thing. Everyone’s running this race.

27:04 Joy: And some people are more aware of it than others. Some people, based on their upbringing and what they bring to the table in terms of their own money scripts, and what gets activated for them around money, they may have different thoughts and feelings about it. But that’s one way to think about it. And you know, this transition when you do have more income, I think it’s important that it doesn’t become, you know, if you think about someone who’s been on a diet and then it’s like, everything is suddenly available, I’m just going to binge. If you can keep a mentality of moderation, that is going to serve you going forward.

Take Ownership of Social Spending

27:50 Emily: I love those two suggestions. And especially the first one around like, it’s sort of like, money decisions, let’s say about social spending with your peer group. They don’t have to happen to you, right? Like you can actually sort of take the wheel and say, at least some of the time, I’m going to be suggesting things to do that are within my budget. Like you said, probably some other people will be relieved. And so, you know, you can do a combination of planning things and maybe saying yes or no here or there to things that other people suggest. So that you’re not, you know, always, always saying no to everything, but yeah, you can keep it more within your range and steer things. I know, certainly for me in graduate school I found a group of friends that I was comfortable socializing with and we all sort of had the same manner of socializing that we enjoyed, and it was very inexpensive. And it was really good for all of us in that sense.

28:40 Emily: And so, you sort of find your people, is maybe one way. So like, there aren’t so many Joneses, so close to you in your life. I had a couple other ideas about how to like combat this, you know, impulse to keep up with the Joneses. One was to redefine what you’re jonesing for. So like instead of jonesing for the consumption aspects of using your money, Jones for like, “I’m going to max out that 401k,” like “I’m going to, you know, be striving”–if you want to strive for something–be striving for something that’s ultimately going to benefit your finances instead of, you know, working in the opposite direction for you.

29:17 Joy: Change your status symbols.

Happiness is Not Contingent on What You Are Chasing

29:20 Emily: Yes. Oh, that’s a great way of putting it. I love that. It’s very, you know, it’s millionaire next door. Right. So, try to be like that person. Are there any other like sort of behavioral finance tips that you would suggest for, you know, helping people achieve their financial goals without letting these Jones impulses kind of get in their way?

29:40 Joy: Well, I think just really paying attention to what you are benchmarking to, this idea of this is the baseline. I think that’s really important. As you think about and reflect on, I think developing financial self-awareness and doing some reflection and understanding about what gets activated for you with your money, and really starting to dig into some of the more core beliefs you carry about money and how that drives what you do with it. I think those are really important foundational places for people to start.

30:26 Emily: Yeah, I think going along with those exercises as well, and you just mentioned this, is sort of remembering where you’ve come from. Like remembering the influences, of course, that your parents have, and then maybe your peers, you know, through different stages of your life. And remembering like, especially once you’ve passed, like the graduate school stage, like, “Okay, back then I did live on this amount of money. I did have this size of home. I did do these things. Was I happy then? Was I content then? Why are things different now? Could they be more similar to how things were in the past?” I’m asking myself some of these questions now that I’m, you know, a few years out of graduate school.

31:02 Joy: If you are telling yourself, “I will be happy when,” and you are then looking to something in the future, I would really encourage you to go back into your history and think about this idea of happy. What is some other evidence you have that there have been other times when you’ve had that feeling that experience that you haven’t had that thing? So, happiness is not contingent on that which you are chasing.

The Power of “No”

31:34 Emily: Yeah. That’s such a, I think foundational point about happiness, that I’m only just sort of starting to learn myself now in my thirties. And I wish I had known it because I am the type of person who kind of always has goals and is always striving for something. And my husband definitely kind of complains and kind of ribs me for like always wanting the next thing. And why can’t you be satisfied now? And, I am starting to realize like that. Whoo. That’s just how I am. I need to really like, look at that because I’m never going to get there. Right? If that’s what I’m basing that on. Is there anything else you wanted to add, Joy, before we wrap up the interview here?

32:09 Joy: I think this idea of there’s a lot of power in saying no and having financial boundaries, that’s something I do a lot of talking with people about. I think a lot of things get in the way of people saying, “No.” There’s a fear of missing out. There’s a discomfort with what you are anticipating someone else’s reaction is going to be. And the truth is, I believe people would be healthier, wealthier, and less exhausted overall if they built that muscle of saying “No” more often. And again, that’s not saying no to everything. But if you are finding yourself in a situation in your gut where you’re like, “I’m going to say yes, but I really don’t want to do this.” Ask yourself why. And then what is getting in the way of your taking care of yourself? If it’s your energy, if it’s your finances, and what would need to happen in order for you to have the courage to say, “No?” And what is the cost to your yes? Be that financial, physical, psychological.

How To Connect with Joy Lere

33:27 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. How can people find out more about the work that you do? Or I don’t know, if they want to be a client of yours. Like how do people connect with you?

33:37 Joy: My website is my name. J O Y L E R E. Joylere.com. I am active on LinkedIn, Joy Lere Psyd, and also spin my creative wheels on Instagram a little bit, @ joylerepsyd, and also love to hang out on Twitter and connect with people there. Also, my handle is joylerepsyd.

Best Advice for an Early-Career PhD

34:02 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. That’s where we connected as well. So, final question here, Joy. What is your best financial advice for an early-career PhD? It could be something we’ve touched on in this interview, or it could be something else entirely.

34:14 Joy: My best advice is to do things different than most people around you. If you do that now, you will have things that no one else later on in their career will likely be able to accomplish and achieve.

34:36 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. Thank you so much for this interview and for joining me today.

34:39 Joy: Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Thanks for sharing your platform with me.

Outtro

34:44 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Identify and Change the Money Mindset You Developed in Academia

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Chris Cornthwaite of Roostervane. Chris and Emily share the money mindsets that they have observed among PhDs and academics, including believing money and wealth to be evil, scarcity, relating time to income, and anchoring. They discuss how to identify and change your own money mindset. Chris shares how his money mindset has evolved from his youth idolizing poverty through his underpaid grad student years and now into his employment and entrepreneurial journey.

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Link Mentioned in this Episode

PhD money mindset

Teaser

00:00 Chris: It’s one thing to start when you’re, when you’re 20 or 25, and have the value of compound interest over time and save that $40 a month or whatever it was. But it’s actually quite a different thing to start when you’re 35 with student loans that need to be paid off and try to create a sizeable chunk of wealth.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 11, and today my guest is Dr. Chris Cornthwaite of Roostervane. Chris and I list the money mindsets that we have observed among PhDs and academics, including believing money and wealth to be evil, scarcity, relating time to income, and anchoring. We discuss how to identify and change your own money mindset. Chris shares how his money mindset has evolved from his youth idolizing poverty, through his underpaid grad student years, and now into his employment and entrepreneurial journey. As you’ll hear during this episode, one of the best ways you can change your money mindset is by intentionally seeking out and learning from people who have the money mindset you want to move toward, whether that is through books, other media or new acquaintances.

01:22 Emily: If this episode convinces you that you should work on your own money mindset, I invite you to join the Personal Finance for PhDs community at pfforphds.community. Inside the community, you can communicate with me and other like-minded PhDs through our forum and monthly live calls. The community has a monthly book club and group financial challenges as well. In November, 2020, we’re reading Get Money by Kristin Wong and in December, it we’ll read The Millionaire Next Door by Thomas Stanley and William Danko. Our challenges for November and December are to create a frugal stack and set up a system of targeted savings accounts. One of the eBooks included in the community, The Wealthy PhD, also has a chapter on what money mindset is, why it’s important, and how to shift it. While I didn’t understand it at the time being part of the personal finance blogosphere while I was in grad school was absolutely vital to the level of financial success I had then and now, and was directly my inspiration for starting my business. With the Personal Finance for PhD’s community, I’ve attempted to replicate many of the positive elements of that experience while making the whole process more time efficient and accessible for you. If you’re interested in learning more about and joining the community, you can do so at pfforphds.community. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Chris Cornthwaite from Roostervane.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:49 Emily: I’m so delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Chris Cornthwaite of Roostervane. He writes a lot about PhDs and career transitions and career over there, but he also has a lot of material about money, wealth, money, mindset, and so forth. And that’s why I invited him on the podcast today to tell us more about money mindset. So, Chris, will you please just introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

03:14 Chris: Yeah, for sure. So in terms of my academic background, I have a PhD in religious studies from the University of Toronto and after I finished my PhD, I was kind of lost and didn’t know what to do for work. Kind of was the impetus for starting Roostervane, eventually. But I went and I worked for a think tank. So I ran projects for Canadian think tank. Kind of a lot of different projects, but some that kind of related to money that are still interesting to me is things like economic development and prosperity and things like that. And then I went and worked for the federal government for a little while, the Canadian federal government. I worked on a project that helps other countries launch refugee programs. Basically it’s a lot of like international diplomacy kind of stuff and that was really neat. And I still do some consulting in that world, in the refugee program world, but I also run Roostervane. I started a blog, initially it was kind of chronicling my own journey out of academia, but it’s just evolved to things that I like to write about. It’s become everything from a little bit on personal finance, as you say to careers, LinkedIn, ideas about purpose, which has really been an interesting question for me. That’s become about, I would say it’s maybe like 80% of the work I do, but it’s not my full-time income yet. It’s growing, but as you know, it takes time, so I’m working on that too. That’s me.

4:40 Emily: So interesting. Thank you so much. So money mindset is our topic for today.

What Are the Common Money Mindsets of PhDs and Academics?

And I wanted to start off by asking you what are the common money mindsets that you have observed in PhDs or academics?

4:53 Chris: This is such a fun conversation. I’m really glad to have it. I think the thing that I see a lot of, I mean, we could talk about scarcity mindset and that sort of thing, and that’s certainly common. I think the thing that I deal with the most, especially as people are like leaving academia and it’s not just about money, but it’s about careers in general, but there’s a lot of constructs within academia, like ideological constructs that money is bad, money is evil. The pursuit of money is something that, especially for those pursuing life in academia, a lot of people kind of buy the idea that this is a noble cause and worth doing for nothing basically. I think that a lot of PhDs have the idea that they shouldn’t think about money or that they’re bad for thinking about it or that they’re not serious academics if they want to think about it.

5:46 Chris: The irony is that, I remember having one exchange with a student in particular and he was kind of saying some of these things to me and he was quoting his professor. And some of the things his professor had said about how this is not about money. And I said, “is that your professor who makes $170,000 a year?” There’s a huge discrepancy, I think, between the idealism of PhDs and the reality of both the Academy and just “real world”. I think that’s the biggest holdup I see in terms of money mindset is that people have this idea that poverty is noble or that earning money is bad. Investing is capitalism, capitalism’s bad. I think those become really big holdups and I think can actually seriously hinder people from first of all, making good decisions about their career, but also from actually acquiring wealth and getting comfortable, much less wealthy.

6:38 Emily: So I think here, your discipline might be showing because like in contrast, so I’ve heard the same things, but it was not until I started speaking with PhDs more widely across a lot of disciplines that I encountered that mindset. Because for me as an engineering PhD and in the STEM fields, yes, scarcity mindset was there. Yes, undervaluing yourself was there, but not the money is evil aspect of things because I think we were all expecting like, okay, yeah, this is a low-income period of life, but this is not characterized my life overall. Like overall I’m going to be a highly employable, decent to good earner as an engineering PhD or STEM PhD. And honestly, even in my let’s say path through academia in terms of the professors that I interacted with, because I was in science fields and engineering fields, I didn’t have any professors say to me, capitalism is evil or anything like that. So it’s not an idea that I found until I started interacting with humanities PhDs that I even encountered that. I think this is really feel dependent.

7:48 Chris: A hundred percent, I agree. And it’s interesting for careers too. I’m always kind of realizing where these field differences are and it’s hard because I write for PhDs, like it’s one audience, and in some cases I think there are a lot of things that are kind of universal, but you’re a hundred percent right. And I think a lot of the kinds of ideologies around money that I was exposed to, and I mean, I still see them a lot, but you’re you’re right, they’re definitely much more predominant in humanities, social science fields for sure.

8:13 Emily: Yeah, but I’m so glad you brought that one up because I think that one is maybe the most insidious, like the hardest to reverse, which of course we’ll get to in a moment, but that was a great first observation to bring up. Do you have any other ones? You mentioned scarcity mindset earlier, but didn’t actually define it. Do you want to talk a little bit more about what scarcity mindset is?

8:31 Chris: Gosh, yeah. I think scarcity mindset for me, the way I understand it is just the idea that like there’s never enough money and it’s always, I’m just going to be poor and I’m always going to be poor. I mean, I don’t know, we’ve never had the conversation about the philosophies of money behind it, but a lot of the people that I read see this as manifesting into your life, that you adopt this type of scarcity and it becomes true for you. There’s a whole different conversation we could have, but I think at least anecdotally that’s been true in my life too, that when I kind of live this kind of scarcity — there’s never enough money, I have to keep it all tight, and pinch every penny and be just really, really controlling about, about my money. I think that’s what I see and I saw a lot of that in academia and I think, I mean, a lot of people are poor. I actually did all right, because I won the right fellowships. I mean, it’s just luck of the draw. There’s not really any reason why one PhD makes $15,000, another one makes $50,000. But all that to say that I saw a lot of that scarcity mindset. But the other thing that I think one of the things that I really observed academia taught me was this idea of linking your time to money. I didn’t get paid by the hour other than when I did TA or RA work, so I think one of the really valuable lessons I learned in academia and it’s a mindset that academics have if you kind of dig for it is this idea that you can actually work on a grant application for five or six hours and it might bring you a hundred thousand dollars. I think there are also some positive money mindsets from academia too, if you want to dig for them, but it’s just hard to kind of hard to get at them sometimes.

10:16 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s a really interesting point to bring up. Actually, I wanted to go back to the scarcity mindset for a second because there’s actual scarcity in your life and there’s the scarcity mindset and those things can come together or they can be separate from each other. You can have one or the other, you can have both, you can have neither. There is actual scarcity, especially at the graduate student level in terms of how much money you’re making. Now, does that apply to everybody? No, because of course there’s fellowships you can win, you can have side hustles, but there is scarcity in a sense. But whether it limits your mindset or not doesn’t necessarily come along with that scarcity. And the other thing is the academic job market, like there is literal a lot of scarcity in the academic job market. And I think that PhD’s observing that market, even if they choose not to pursue it or don’t end up in academia long-term, they still take that observation with them onto their other career paths and imagine the kind of scarcity and other places that they have rightly observed within academia.

11:15 Chris: Yeah. That’s really interesting. One thing I’m thinking of as you say that some of my professor friends who sat on on grant committees, especially for university-level scholarships and realize how many scholarships actually didn’t get any applications. So it also kind of does make me think that like there is of course literal scarcity, but I think one of the ways for example, that that can play out is that instead of me saying as a student, how can I go make more money or how can I increase my, my income? What scholarships can I apply for in this case because there was a lot of years that they didn’t give out a lot of the scholarships. It’s easier just to say, well, I’m just poor and this is my lot in life and woe is me kind of thing. So I hear what you’re saying. I do. I totally agree with you. And I think there’s a balance there for me between the actual scarcity and the mindset that says, how can I make the most of this? There’s obviously going to be some kind of a limit, but how can I expand what I do have access to?

12:11 Emily: Yeah, exactly. I think it’s really depressing for graduate students to think about their hourly wage, because they imagine, especially because they work so many hours, usually beyond 40 and yet they’re only being paid ostensibly — you mentioned RA or TA work earlier, that’s typically limited to like 20 hours a week, at least in the US — so they’re calculating this off of like 40 plus hours per week when actually they’re only being paid for 20 and technically they’re doing their dissertation for free and a lot of people don’t understand that. So it is depressing, they calculate their hourly wage, but like you said, that’s not actually literally what they’re being paid for. And sometimes you can, as you said, win an award for just a handful of hours of extra work on top of the work that you are already doing. So I do like the idea of divorcing the hourly wage thing, but it’s disheartening to think about in the first place.

13:05 Chris: I’m trying to look on the bright side. There’s a lot to be sad about, about the financial state of academia. So overall I’m not saying it’s like, great, but there are things that I’ve realized — I know we’re going to talk about it later — but as I’ve moved into my life, there are things that academia trained me for that I’m actually like, Oh, that’s actually not a bad thing.

13:22 Emily: Yeah. So let’s finish up talking about the mindsets that you see. Are there any ones that you’ve have any other ones that you’ve observed either positive or negative, helpful or unhelpful?

13:32 Chris: Let me think. Well, I guess so, so I think the thing that initiated this conversation was you had mentioned a post that I wrote where I had identified a lot of different things that I had learned. I’m trying to think about how much they relate to mindset, but I think there are principles, some of which do relate to mindset, about money that students kind of carry forward. So we already talked about the hourly wage, but I was thinking about in terms of scale, like when you think of I don’t know, a journal publication, like creating one thing that can influence multiple people. That’s not so much a mindset though. I guess I think the answer is no, I don’t really have any other mindsets offhand that I talk about.

14:13 Emily: I think the only other one that I’ll bring up is anchoring. So when you’re in graduate school and you’re making this tiny hourly wage or maybe you think about your yearly salary also tiny, because you’re anchored there, because that’s the first, early on salary that you’ve experienced in your life, you may not really understand your value in the marketplace once you go forward from that position, whether it’s in academia or outside of academia. And so your anchored to this, as you mentioned, 15 or 30 or whatever it is, thousand dollars per year, you’re making as a graduate student and you think, “Oh, wow, could I make double that?” And that’s like amazing to you. Instead of thinking, I want to three X, four X, five X, 10 X what I was making in graduate school, or more. I think that’s another really insidious one is, is the ultimate under valuing that you do later on.

15:04 Chris: Yeah, that’s a great point.

How Do You Identify Your Money Mindset?

15:06 Emily: So we talked about the money mindsets that are common among PhDs. These are not universal. So how does an individual determine what are the money mindsets that I currently have? And this is such a tough question because money mindsets are so closely held you don’t even recognize them as such. It’s just how the world works according to you. So how do you identify your own, your own money mindset?

15:28 Chris: I think the thing that helped me most was reading. I would say the first book I read on money was The Undercover Economist. And I read that, I mean, that must be 10 years ago now. I read it somewhere in my graduate journey, I think pretty early on and it rocked my world and I started reading every single personal finance or money book I could get my hands on after that. So I’ve read a lot of them. And I think a lot of what I saw through reading kind of reflected back to me in my own life.

16:01 Chris: For example, I started to, I can’t even pinpoint like where I got it from, but I started to see like things that I was raised with. I was raised in quite a poor family. My dad worked as a maintenance man in hospital, my mom stayed home with five kids, and a lot of my money mindset came from there. There was never enough money, money doesn’t grow on trees, money is for other people, and then we were also religious, so it was also spiritualized. I don’t know if I ever heard that money is evil, but I definitely heard that poverty was kind of noble, poverty was spiritual. I think the more I started to read and just hear people name similar things to what I had felt and seeing other people who grew up in similar places, I started to unpack a lot of those. There’s one podcast I really liked, it’s called Profit Boss, and she really did a fantastic job. Is it Hillary Hendershot? Do you know that one? I haven’t listened to it about five years.

17:00 Emily: I don’t think I know that one.

17:00 Chris: She had done an episode on money mindset, and it was really good and really opened up to me a lot of my own limitations and that really helped a lot. I think just hearing people name their money mindset and seeing it in myself.

17:17 Emily: So I totally agree with you that you have to start encountering other minds to recognize your own mindsets and whether that’s through reading as you were doing. I also early on in my life journey was reading the personal finance blogosphere quite a lot. So hearing from other personal stories of people who are talking explicitly about money. That’s the thing is you have to actually kind of get towards money or money related topics when you know, exchange these other minds. So it’s a little bit easier to do in an impersonal format, like reading or listening to podcasts or watching videos or whatever. But I’ll add into that talking with other graduate students, maybe like we mentioned earlier, outside your own discipline and outside your own worldview. Or not even other graduate students, but just like your peers, maybe peers who have real jobs, that can help you open up. If you’re actually, again, touching on these money or money related topics can help you recognize what’s a mindset in you and what’s like actual observable truth about the world versus just your perception of it. Encountering other people I think is crucial to identifying your own money mindset.

18:24 Chris: The kind of thing that that makes me think of is this idea of even talking about money. And I know that’s another money mindset I had is like, we don’t talk about money. We don’t talk about it with anybody. Money, politics, and I guess religion were the three things you’re not supposed to talk about. Right. And that’s definitely something that I’ve experienced. It’s funny, even with Roostervane. For example, I wrote a post a while back and it was just for fun about how PhDs can be worth a $100K or something, and it was one of the most read posts that I’ve ever done, but it’s actually one of the least shared. People were happy to kind of read about it, but didn’t really want to talk about it. I think there’s a lot of shame in talking about money and expressing an interest in money, and even an interest in having money or growing wealth. That’s another mindset that had held me back in the past. And I think it’s still pretty prevalent.

Commercial

Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, book club and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now back to the interview.

How Do You Change Your Money Mindset?

20:27 Emily: Okay, so an individual has started to identify their own money mindset by listening to this podcast or reading your articles or reading other materials. How do you think they should actually go about changing a money mindset that they’ve identified as unhelpful that they have?

20:44 Chris: I’ve given a lot of thought this. It’s an interesting question, because I think what I realized is it doesn’t change overnight and I will find myself even years later, like something identified years ago and all of a sudden I kind of will stop myself when I’m doing something and say like, Oh, that’s my X mindset that has kind of played in, but it’s kind of sneaking back in. It’s really, really hard to change the way that you are kind of hardwired to think about money. It takes a lot of time. I mean, I’ve done things like I do journaling and I will sort of journal about it. I just watch and read a lot of stuff. I think really immersing yourself in things that kind of present a different view from what you’re used to, I think that kind of immersion has really helped me a lot. I’m trying to think what else. Those would be the two main ones, just kind of exposing yourself to different ideas and kind of recognize that you’re on a journey to change your money mindset. It will definitely take time. It’s not going to happen overnight. Start taking kind of the little incremental steps to grow it. And I think also education, I would say, is a big part of that. The more you learn about money, the more you learn about growing wealth, the less scary it get. It can get confusing because there’s a lot of contradictory information, but it’s at least less scary. So ideally you’re going to, you’re going to be a little more competent and therefore comfortable with actually thinking about and dealing with your money.

22:07 Emily: I totally agree with you that I think the first stop is sort of the extension of the identification. It’s continuing to encounter other ideas about money and maybe now you can kind of selectively go towards, “okay, well, this is a money mindset that I would like to cultivate, or this is the money mindset I want to get away from, so I’m going to specifically listen to source X or source Y, which is going to help me move again slowly over time towards that more helpful money mindset.” So yeah, I totally agree. Like for instance, listen to this podcast. Maybe this is giving you a different perspective on money than you had before. Or continue to read other sources. I know I, as I mentioned earlier, totally immersed myself in like the personal finance blogosphere. That was really helpful in changing some of my money mindsets, especially around like earning more because definitely as a graduate student, I had those limiting beliefs about like, I can’t have a side hustle and like, I can never increase my stipend, but that turned out to not be true after working on it for years and years I finally figured that out. So definitely getting around other people. I don’t remember the exact phrase, but there’s that thing where like, you’re the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And so with respect to your money mindset, if you’ve had parent one, parent two, professor one in that circle before, you can maybe, at least with respect to this subject, edge those people out in favor of people who, have the mindset that you want to adopt.

23:28 Chris: Exactly. Yeah, I totally agree.

23:30 Emily: And I’ll add in, you mentioned a little bit earlier, abundance mindset and thinking and so forth. And I’ve also read a little bit about that in the entrepreneurial space. That’s how I actually first sort of encountered the topic of mindset was through the entrepreneurial stuff. One of the things that is talked about a lot in that space, which I think might be helpful, is actually writing and saying affirmations. And you mentioned, it’s a little bit related to journaling. Basically what we’re talking about is self-talk. You’ve been telling yourself money is the root of all evil and capitalism needs to die and I will never have money and all those things. You’ve been telling yourself those things for years. And so now you need to start telling yourself other things. It might be helpful to actually write down an affirmation, something that you know maybe intellectually to be true, but you don’t really feel it. You haven’t really internalized it yet and start reciting those to yourself. Maybe it’s once a day or a few times a day, to kind of get that self-talk like grooved in. And so eventually you’ll go to it more naturally. This is something I recommend to people who I work with on money mindset. It’s not something I practice all the time, but I do it from time to time when I feel like I need a little boost or a refresher with my mindset. Have you ever done the affirmation thing?

24:46 Chris: I do actually. I think I just, wasn’t clear in defining how I think of journaling because I do journaling, but within my journaling, I do affirmations as well. I have every day and there’s one in particular, there’s one that I’ll share just because it’s been a recent realization for me. I’m not particularly religious anymore, but coming from this idea of my youth that having money is evil somehow or whatever, I’ve really been thinking through like trying to get myself to adopt the idea lately that money is almost spiritual. That having money and creating wealth, especially as an entrepreneur, is actually an indication of the value that I bring to somebody else’s life. Rather than our ideas about entrepreneurship growing up is like, well, business people trick people into giving them money or whatever. In fact it’s quite the opposite. My wealth, the amount that I get paid is reflective of the value that I bring to people’s lives, and that’s really a beautiful thing. I think that’s one thing, just for example, that I’ve been kind of writing down variations of that for quite a long time now, trying to really worm it into my head because I really do believe it’s true, actually.

25:54 Emily: Yeah. I’m working on a similar one for me and my business as well. The amount of money you’re bringing in reflects the value that you bring to the world. That’s true, if you have a job too, but it’s sort of brutally true when you’re an entrepreneur, like you’re feeling that like all the time, there’s no comfort of the salary.

Chris’s Own Money Mindset Journey

26:13 Emily: Okay, so we’ve talked through what kind of mindsets you might have if you’re in academia, how do identify them, how to change them or start to change them, because you said, it’s going to be a process. You’ve talked about your own personal story here and there throughout this. Is there anything that you want to add more so about your career or your financial journey, especially as it relates to your money mindset?

26:35 Chris: Yeah, I think it’s interesting. I’ve had a constant evolution of my money mindset and it started back when I started reading personal finance books, at the beginning and each personal finance books was like a revelation. Like the first one, I remember reading a book called The Millionaire Teacher. I don’t know if you know that one. And it was like, okay, it’s low cost index funds, that’s how I’m going to build wealth. Low-cost index funds, low MER, ETFs — that’s the answer. And then I read the next one and it was like, actually people with managed portfolios do better over time and like, okay, who do I believe?

27:11 Chris: I think one of the most interesting things about my money journey has been, first of all, just digesting the huge amount of contradictory information out there. And there is a lot of it. For example, I remember reading Dave Ramsey and David Bach around the same time, and Dave Ramsey is like, pay down debt, don’t buy a house until you’re out of debt and David Bach was like buy a house tomorrow because nobody’s going to let you leverage that amount of money anywhere else. So it’s funny, I think like looking back now, I was forming my own views around money, even though there are little nuances in how they actually play out. I remember reading one book in particular and it was after I had read all these different people and the book was, I’m almost ashamed to say it. There are two money books I’m really ashamed to say that I like. I wonder if you could guess them, the first is Robert Kiyosaki’s Rich Dad, Poor Dad.

28:05 Emily: Yeah I was going to say Rich Dad, Poor Dad.

28:08 Chris: I’m so embarrassed to say that I liked that one. First of all, because if you Google Robert Kiyosaki, as an individual, I’m not endorsing Robert Kiyosaki. He’s had some interesting business practices and definitely has some interesting beliefs today. But the book was revolutionary for me. It really changed the way that I thought about business and wealth and just my own upbringing. The second one, this one it’s called The Millionaire Fastlane: Crack the Code to Wealth and Live Rich for a Lifetime! It’s by a guy named MJ DeMarco. I would almost recommend it, but I’m hesitant because it’s like a bro book. He’s just one of those…he was an internet millionaire and it’s really, especially when you read it there are just some things that like don’t sit right. But the one thing that I will say that hit me about that book is he said actually when you look at all these personal finance gurus, none of them got rich off of following their own advice. Dave Ramsey and Susie Orman, these people didn’t get rich from saving 15% of their paycheck. They got rich by creating something that had massive value, massive scale, and creating huge personal brands and putting it out there in the world.

29:16 Chris: And I think that was really like something clicked. I had been working for the government too and realizing that even though I was making quite good money compared to what I was making in my PhD and I was interviewing for jobs that would make even more, I was giving away a third of it in taxes. I was struggling. Even our family, we thought we were going to be wealthy now that we have a paycheck and have a good job and I have a pension. And I mean, the opposite was true. Trying to scrape together that 15% to save every month or whatever it was going to be, it felt almost impossible, just because of the realities of our cost of living and raising kids and unexpected expenses. And I remember kind of thinking this through and saying, okay, it’s one thing to start when you’re 20 or 25, and have the value of compound interest over time and save that $40 a month or whatever it was. But it’s actually quite a different thing to start when you’re 35 with student loans that need to be paid off and try to create a sizable chunk of wealth. It’s possible. It’s definitely possible.

30:23 Chris: At the time I was the only one working my spouse Carolyn was home with our kids and she is a graphic designer, so she does some freelance work, but she wasn’t making a full-time income. So I think I just kind of came to the reality and it was about the time I read this, that it kind of shook me. And I said like, actually the way that I’m thinking about wealth is right for a lot of people, but it might not be right for me. For your listeners, there’s probably a variety of people. If you’re a two income family earning $180,000 a year, it might be pretty easy to catch up and squirrel away 30% a month instead of 15% a month and catch up to where you would have been. But for my own reality, I fell in love with the idea of business and the idea that in my case, especially with an internet business that I could start with almost like nothing. I could start with $3 a month and create a business that’s worth a lot of money. I didn’t know where else you could leverage that. Like you have that kind of leverage or create that kind of scale from starting with like paying Bluehost $3 a month and putting my ideas online to creating something. And I don’t know exactly, like I’m not great at evaluating blogs, but I think even today, Roostervane, from what I understand would be worth like between $30 and $60,000, which is not a huge amount of money, but I started it last year.

31:39 Chris: As a business person, it’s just thinking through business has changed everything about how I see money and I’m no longer one of those people trying to squirrel away part of my paycheck. And those are totally fine if that’s the position somebody is in and that’s kind of their money worldview, that’s totally great. But for me personally, I just got a lot more interested in creating an asset. Creating this asset that’s called a business and it changes everything. I don’t really care how much I take out of the business. I don’t care how much my paycheck is because I actually love having money in the business to reinvest back into it. It’s just little things like that, that as an entrepreneur radically reorients your relationship to money and it really changes the way you view everything. It’s been a long journey and I think I’ve talked a lot about it, but it’s been really interesting, and I still have so much to learn, but it’s just that constant growth and realization, coming to the idea that there are some principles that I’ve come believe about money, about things like scale and impacting people and creating value. And that’s some of the things that I’ve put on the blog, which I haven’t really blogged about why you should invest in low cost index funds. I’ve just blogged about here are some of the kind of generic things that I believe about building wealth.

32:54 Emily: Yeah, I’m so glad to hear that narrative and I see a lot of my own story reflected in that as well. Of course, I’ve also come to entrepreneurship.

Chris’s Business

33:01 Emily: So if people want to read more stuff from you, tell us where they can, they can find you.

33:08 Chris: Yeah, Roostervane.com. It’s kind of like a weather vane, but there’s a rooster on top — Roostervane. And that’s where I blog about…my main thing is careers with purpose. It’s just thinking through like how we actually get jobs and careers, but also how we make meaning from them. That’s the kind of humanities thing that I bring to it is how we think about meaning. So Roostervane.com. You can find me on Twitter, @cjcornthwaite is my handle. You can just search my name, Chris Cornthwaite. Twitter, LinkedIn, wherever I’m always happy to chat.

33:40 Emily: Wonderful. And last question for the interview, Chris, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it could be related to something we’ve already discussed in this interview, or it could be something completely else.

33:52 Chris: Educate. Education, learn. It’s amazing how many people can spend five or ten years learning about the nuances of a field, but don’t actually want to take any time to learn about the basics of personal finance. I would say read as much as you can, listen to a podcast like this one, and just educate yourself and you’ll be empowered to actually create wealth and to get over some of those mindsets we’ve talked about.

34:18 Emily: Wonderful advice. Thank you so much for joining me for this interview, Chris.

34:22 Chris: Thank you, Emily. My pleasure.

Outtro

34:24 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

Fully Joint and Fully Separate Finances in Marriage: Perspectives from Two PhDs

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In this episode, Emily discusses marital finances with Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, an assistant professor at Creighton University. Emily and her husband keep fully joint finances, whereas Michelle and her husband keep fully separate finances. They detail their respective systems, list the advantages of each approach, consider how the legal realities line up or not with their preferred conceptions, and consider whether they would ever change their methods. They touch on IRS filing statuses, student loan debt, income shifts, living apart, and the addition of children.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Michelle: Every November, I have these two conferences and I know I’m going to be spending more money around that time. He doesn’t have to think about that at all. And if we had a joint account, we would always have to talk about that. And because we don’t, it’s not a thing that we need to discuss, he just knows that I go on these conferences.

Introduction

00:26 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode three, and today my guest is Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, an assistant professor at Creighton University. Michelle and I discuss our methods for handling finances in our marriages. My husband and I keep fully joint finances, and Michelle and her husband keep fully separate finances. We detail our respective systems, list the advantages of each approach, consider how the legal realities line up with our preferred conceptions, and consider whether we’d ever change our methods. We touch on IRS filing statuses, student loan debt, income shifts, living apart, and the addition of children. Without further ado, here’s my discussion with Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:18 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts, and we’re doing a little bit of a different format today than my typical podcast interviews. Michelle and I are actually going to have a discussion today. The topic of our discussion is how to handle money in a relationship. And I was looking for someone to discuss this topic with me because my husband and I have our finances completely joint. And I know that that is not necessarily as common as a model as it used to be. And so I wanted to have someone on who would tell me about a different model. So, Michelle volunteered. She and her husband have separate finances. So, we have those two perspectives represented today. And there’s a third model that won’t be represented, which is the yours, mine, and ours model, which is sort of in between these two.

02:02 Emily: So, I hope you’ll get something from this that’ll be interesting to you. If you are in a relationship, if you handle money together as a couple, hopefully you’ll find some common ground with one or the other of us, or maybe you’ll disagree with both of us and say, “Well, I want to handle things completely differently than these two.” But yeah, that’s the topic for today. So, Michelle, thank you so much for joining me and having this discussion.

02:22 Michelle: Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to talking about this.

02:25 Emily: All right. So, why don’t we start Michelle with a little bit further introduction to you, like your academic and career background and where you live?

02:34 Michelle: Sure. So, I am a clinical psychologist by training. I’m currently living in Omaha, Nebraska, and I am an assistant professor at Creighton University and I’m a licensed clinical psychologist at CHI Health Initiative. I have a PhD from the University of Toledo in Ohio and my husband and I have been moving all across the country, met in undergrad and have been together ever since then. So, he’s been really following me around through all of my steps to get to where I am now. And I think that really factors into how money has been handled in our relationship because he is not a PhD. So, while I’ve been accruing debts and lots of things, that’s not been true for him. We started out as, you know, dating and as roommates before we were ever married. And so, the roommate piece has always been a factor in how we’ve handled money. And I think as we married that never changed because we had already found a system that worked for us.

Timeline for Michelle and Emily’s Relationships

03:49 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. Can you put some dates on this? Maybe I’ll share some dates of my own as well. So, like when did you meet, when did you move or change things in your relationship? Going from dating to living together to marry, those kinds of things?

04:05 Michelle: Yeah, so we met in 2004 and we did not get married until 2016. So, I graduated in May of 2008 from undergrad, moved from Ohio to North Carolina and lived for a year on my own while he was finishing up his degree. And then he moved to North Carolina with me. So, I was a postbac at Duke for three years, we, that sort of started our trajectory on roommates. And then he followed me from Duke to Toledo for my PhD. And we lived in Toledo for four years. And then a requirement for clinical psychologists is that we do a year-long APA accredited internship somewhere in the country. And so, I happened to match at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences. So, we moved from Toledo, Ohio to Little Rock, Arkansas in 2015. And then we got married in the middle of my internship year in 2016. And then from there, we moved from Arkansas back to Ohio for postdoc, where I was a postdoc for four years at Ohio State. And then from Columbus, Ohio to Omaha, Nebraska, and have only lived in Omaha for about two months.

Separate to Joint Finances vs. Maintaining Separate Finances in Marriage

05:40 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That is a lot of moving, but not too unusual right? In the PhD world. So yeah, I’ll share kind of the counterpoint. There’s actually some points of overlap in our story, which is really interesting. So, my husband and I, before we married, Kyle, we graduated from college in 2007. We started dating in 2006 and we lived in different cities for a year. He started at Duke and I did a postbac at the NIH. And then in 2008 in the fall, I moved and started my PhD at Duke. We lived separately for two years until we got married in 2010. So when we got married, moved in, that’s when we combined our finances. So, we went from completely separate to completely joint.

06:30 Emily: Well, there’s a little bit of a transition, but aspiring to be joint when we got married that was in 2010 and it’s been that way since. So, we did have a small period of living apart for a few months when I did a fellowship after I finished my PhD, but we both defended in the summer of 2014. We lived in Durham for another year. I was in DC for part of that year. And then in 2015, we moved from Durham to Seattle. So, that’s kind of our story. And for the listeners, we’re recording this in September, 2019. So, that’s the perspective there. So, we’ve already heard a little bit about the history of like how the handling of the finances for both of us has changed over the course of our relationships. Is there anything else that you want to add to that as to maybe like philosophically, like why you’ve chosen to maintain the system that you had been using all along? Whereas of course I, as I just said, we changed at some point.

07:23 Michelle: Yeah. So, for me personally, my debt that I was accruing was my debt for my education and my career advancement, wasn’t necessarily my husband’s. And yes, I know legally it’s his debt now because we’re married. By not having our finances joint, it makes me feel like it’s still my debt and I’m still working to pay off my debt. And it actually helps me a lot. So, on fellowship, I got an NIH loan repayment grant and I was able to do that pretty easily because I had not consolidated my loans, and his undergrad loans weren’t part of mine and we didn’t have to deal with any of that. And I was told by NIH loan repayment that our finances were much more straightforward and it was easier for them to give me money because they didn’t have any headache with that. So, it was helpful in that regard. We were not thinking about that when we decided not to join accounts.

Benefits of Filing Taxes Jointly as a Married Couple

08:39 Emily: Yeah, sometimes there are unexpected benefits that come up along the way. So, I’m curious, do you guys file taxes married, filing jointly, or married, filing separately?

08:49 Michelle: Jointly.

08:50 Emily: Okay. Because that also, that sometimes affects like this loan repayment, like loan forgiveness stuff, depending on like what program you’re in. Did you want to add to that?

08:58 Michelle: It’s definitely like, we talked about how we were going to do that. And I think because economically we would benefit more from filing jointly as opposed to filing separately. And so that was pretty much the decision. It was more of an economic decision as opposed to a philosophical one, I guess.

09:12 Emily: Yeah, there’s this really strange thing, I guess, in the tax code that it does matter a lot, whether you’re married or not. Right? That’s the sort of defining line is legal marriage, depending on how you file. And then there’s a real disadvantage to married filing separately. I mean, there are some conditions under which some people choose to do that, but it’s not at all the same to do married, filing separately as it is when you’re not married. Like those are two vastly different treatments under the tax code. So, I find that to be very I mean, I’m sure there are reasons for it, but I find it to be kind of puzzling. So, there are sort of very, very special circumstances where it makes sense to do married filing separately, but they’re kind of rare actually, and actually often involve large student loan debts. And that’s one reason that people do file separately.

Advantages of Separate Finances in Marriage

09:59 Emily: Okay. So, I would say for my counterpoint on that, the philosophy or the reasoning behind us joining our finances when we got married was around our understanding of marriage or our idea of what marriage should be. And so, there are certain attributes of a married couple that we believe in. And one of those is joining finances. That’s not to say that everyone has to do it the same way we do, but that’s how we view our marriage. And so, it was important for us to go from not having anything in common before we were married to, after we were married, deciding that everything would be in common. So, let’s get to talking about, kind of like, what are the advantages of the joint finances model and the separate finances model? And please go first.

10:48 Michelle: Okay. So, advantages that I see are control. Control of your own money and how you spend it. Like, I don’t have to ask my husband and he doesn’t have to ask me to spend money. Because we both know what’s in our respective accounts and we are decent money managers. And so, we’re not necessarily consulting eachother about money all the time. And in fact, it’s very rare for us to have a discussion about money, or I don’t think we’ve ever fought about money because we’ve never needed to. So, I would consider that definitely a pro because finances are a common theme for stress and tension and marriage, and by us having separate accounts, I’m never needing to have that discussion with him because the bills that I pay are paid and it’s on my own volition and what he’s paying is on his and I never have to track that.

11:50 Emily: So, I have kind of a follow-up question about that, which is so at some points you do have to make decisions around money like where to live, for example. So, do you just eat sort of assess your own budgets and so forth and say, “Okay, this is how much I can spend on the next place that we live.” And you both just kind of agree on a number, is that right?

Separate Finances, Shared Vision and Life Goals

12:08 Michelle: Yes. Yeah. In general, we know, so we have, even though our finances are separate, we have shared goals for our life. So, our goal right now is to live like a postdoc, even though I’ve started my career. And with the goal of paying off my student loans and our credit card debt, so that we can then save for a house and just have a better life down the line. And so, we both share that vision, but how we go about getting to that vision is a little bit different because our accounts are separate.

12:46 Emily: Yeah. I’m really glad that you clarify that. That like, the vision is united. And the, as you were just saying, I thought you put that very well. The methods by which you each get there financially could be separate, but you’ve agreed on kind of where you’re headed. And so, you do aspire to own a house together. It sounds like.

13:05 Michelle: I think so. That’s a goal one day.

13:08 Emily: Okay. Gotcha. Any other advantages? I mean, that’s a big one.

13:12 Michelle: I mean, that for me is the biggest one. And just a sense for my just having my own autonomy within my relationship. I think that’s an important value for me as a person. And so, I get to have that. And my husband supports that because we have a very, like our philosophy on marriage is very much partner-focused and that we’re in it together. And that neither one of us is, you know, the owner of the other. We don’t have that kind of philosophy. And I think that reflects true in our finances. And I find that as an advantage.

Advantages of Joint Finances

13:55 Emily: Yeah, definitely. I thought of a couple of advantages to the joint system. So, one is complete simplicity. We have one checking account, both of our names on it. We have a set of savings accounts that both of our names are on. As I said, the credit cards are a little bit more complicated. Some of those, we have both of our names on there’s like one or two on each of our sides that we only have one, mostly because the other one might sign up later to get the parks as well. So yeah, to me, that simplicity is there. Now, I’m not sure how you handle this part, but I know that for some people who, for instance, have the yours, mine and ours model, they end up having a joint checking account, separate checking accounts, joint savings, separate savings, maybe joint credit cards, maybe separate credit cards. And also there’s a lot of transferring going on. So, I don’t know, like when you pay your bills, for example, do you, like one is responsible–like, how do you handle, I guess the transferring that might need to go on? Or do you avoid that?

14:47 Michelle: Yeah, so for bills, I, in fact, up until this move, had handled all of the bill paying, and so I would pay the bills every month and then we would split finances. So, he would literally write me a check, and then I would deposit that into my account and make sure all the bills got paid. This move, because of all the stress and things in my own world that were happening around this move, he actually took some ownership on setting up some of our bills for this new move. And so, now he’s responsible for some bills that I would have previously been paying, and that seems to be working out okay. It’s just what he’s paying and then gets deducted from what he would owe for the rest of his half.

15:35 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. So there still is some, when you live together and you have shared expenses, you still have to do some of this transferring or somehow decide how to split it up. So, one advantage of joint finances, is the simplicity. Oh, and when we get paid, like all of our money goes into that checking account. Although, you know, come to think of it. My business is something that’s separate, because the business is not in my name alone. But when I pay myself from my business, that goes into our joint checking. And I’m not like spending out of the business for personal stuff, obviously. So, kind of once it is entering into our personal finances it’s joint. So, that’s one advantage is the simplicity. Not having to do the transfers.

Complete Transparency and Agreement

16:14 Emily: And then another one is complete transparency. So, this is not something that necessarily everyone desires, but we do. And so, obviously because everything’s joint, we both have complete access to everything and there’s no, basically there’s no way that any of us could keep a secret from the other without going and opening another account. That obviously could happen. Like, logistically one of us could do that. But in terms of what we know about, we can all see everything. And actually, so in addition to actually like literally sharing the accounts in terms of his name or on them, we also have a Mint account that we share where everything goes into that. And so that was actually helpful. We started that Mint account sort of, you know, as we were getting married and joining everything. So, for the things that were separate, that we didn’t like close down right away, they were all in Mint anyway. So, we could each see what was going on, even if like, you know, that random other account was still open for a little while. So, I liked that aspect of transparency a lot. To me, another feature of joint finances is that you have to agree on everything. But of course the corollary to that is that if you don’t agree, then there’s friction, then there are problems. As you were just saying, by keeping things separate, you really minimize kind of the, the level.

17:30 Emily: Like if you agree on the big picture, like the details, whatever it’s separate, who cares as long as you’re both adhering to the shared vision, I really liked how you phrased that. But for us, it’s sort of a feature that we have to agree about everything. Like I know other people view that as like a downside, but we do have to agree on everything or agree to disagree. Right? And agree to let one another have some autonomy in our decision making and just not care. And of course we’ll still see it. As I said, with the transparency. I think this was more important to us, or it was more of a factor like us having to agree on things earlier in our marriage, because we were both in graduate school. So, we weren’t earning as much money as we are now.

18:12 Emily: And our expenses, we were just a lot more like strict around budgeting and so forth. I mean, by necessity, right? We had to be, so the incomes were lower. So, we had to agree there wasn’t really, there wasn’t really a lot of fat in the budget. Right? And so everything had–not everything, because we agreed on a lot of things automatically–but if there were any points of disagreement, we had to force ourselves to come to an agreement. Or again, agree to disagree and just spend what we will.

Both Spending Models Encourage Conversations About Finances

18:36 Emily: So, I remember like early on in our marriage, I’m a bit of a natural spender. It’s something I’ve had to kind of curb over time, especially during graduate school. And my husband could not understand. We were going to all these weddings, right? Because we were in our mid twenties, we had just gotten married. We were going to a lot of weddings. My husband could not understand why I needed a new dress for, not like literally every event, but like a lot of events. I was like telling him, “I need to buy a new dress for this.” He was like, “I’m wearing the same suit to every single one of these events.” And I was like, “Well, this is a day wedding. And this is an evening wedding. You have to consider the season and the temperature and like the fanciness level.” And so I was trying to tell him all these reasons why I had to like buy all these new dresses. And he ultimately like, did not really understand it, but he just had to like, kind of accept it for a while. And so, that was an example of sort of an ongoing, not like fight, but just like sort of puzzlement on his side of why I was making these decisions.

19:27 Emily: But what that did though, is it kind of forced him, I think, to understand something about women and women’s fashion and the constraints and the expectations that we’re under. And it also forced me ultimately, you know, I didn’t keep up that dress-buying habit for more than a few years. And so, it also kind of forced me to be like, “Well,” rethink, like, “Do I really need all these new clothes for all these new events?” And so, it was a reason for us to kind of evolve our, I guess, thinking or understanding of each other and that kind of thing. So anyway, some short-term conflicts sometimes, but I liked that we are ultimately forced to agree and work things out. So to me, that’s a feature. And then the last feature, did you want to add anything there?

20:08 Michelle: I think just, as a counter perspective, by having separate accounts, it’s actually forced us to talk about finances more than if we had a joint–and maybe not more, but in a different way. So, I like you, Emily, am more of a spender and I have to really be conscientious about saving. Whereas my husband is very frugal and he would never spend money if he could get away with that. And so, it’s more like I’m talking to him as a confidant about money and, “Okay, so I’m really, I’m considering, you know, I love shoes and I think I need a new pair of tennis shoes,” and then he’ll reflect back and say, “Well, do you really? And how are these shoes going to help you with whatever?” And sometimes I’ll listen and I’ll say, “Okay, yeah, you’re right. I probably don’t need these shoes.” And it’s more of a partnership piece as opposed to a necessity. Like, I don’t need his opinion or his approval for me to buy this thing, but I I’m seeking it because I value his input. And in some ways that’s strengthened our relationship.

21:26 Emily: Yeah. So, even though you don’t have to, at the end of the day, you do choose to, I mean, you said earlier, you don’t talk about money much, but it sounds like maybe you talk around it a little bit. Like money affects a lot of things in our lives. And so, it’s kind of hard to go without discussing it at all, at least in an oblique manner. But what I like about what you’re saying is that like you’re still bringing it up and bringing whatever the decision is out into the open. And ultimately at the end of the day, it’s still your decision, but you are seeking his opinion or his counsel. Yeah. I really like that.

Advantage of Joint Finances: Navigating Income Disparities

21:57 Emily: The last advantage that I thought of for having joint finances is that it doesn’t matter who earns what. So, like when my husband and I were in graduate school, we earned about the same amount of money. So, not really huge concerns there. Right? Two people, two incomes that were pretty much the same feels like equal, right? After graduate school, I became self-employed. My income went down–right?–initially and then has risen over time. But his income increased because he got a proper job, a proper post-PhD job. And so, he saw an income jump, and I saw initially an income decrease. And it didn’t matter, like there wasn’t tension around that. And also the decisions that we had to make, like, for example, when you were saying earlier about, okay, you need to come to an agreement on where to live. So, like had we had separate finances under that situation, it would be like, well, I almost can’t contribute anything like to the household or very little, and he would be contributing a lot.

22:57 Emily: Under the joint model, we don’t concern ourselves with that because the money all just is shared. And so, whatever we can budget and afford on the completely combined income is what is going to happen, you know, for our family. And I guess I should say that basically, had we had separate finances and were committed to both contributing, for instance, equally to the household, then I just wouldn’t have started my business. It just, it wouldn’t have happened that way or wouldn’t have happened at that time. Like I would have gone and gotten a job and had an income more equal to what his was or close to. Yeah. And so, I think that the joint finances model has actually helped me like follow my dream. Right? As starting this business. And likewise for him, like he took a job at a startup, which we know at any point the ride could be over, right?

23:51 Emily: It’s an early-stage startup. And so, I guess of course he could have like saved maybe and provided for him self, I guess, in the event of job loss or something, if that’s what an emergency fund is for. But I guess we sort of have more like peace of mind knowing there’s like two incomes going into this pot and, you know, the expenses would be paid like from those two incomes. And again, it doesn’t really matter who’s earning what. So, that’s, again, our philosophy on that. And, I guess I should also mention, we have two children and especially early on in their lives, I was doing a lot more of the childcare. So, my income was lower. I was doing a lot more of the, sort of the work for the household. Right? That was unpaid.

24:29 Emily: And he was doing more of the earning, like outside the household. And that situation has changed now, like my income has risen and we have more childcare now. So, we might be able to handle things differently if we wanted to. But I feel like at that time joint finances were really necessary because the contributions that I was making the household were not reflected in income as much. So yeah, I guess it depends also on like sort of life stage and if both people are working or what decisions are around that, but there’s, I feel like extreme advantages to the joint finances model in certain configurations of income disparities. Right?

25:04 Michelle: Yeah. And I think it might be helpful to know. So, with every transition and are, and new we’ve always moved for my career. And so, the move I was able to start working and earning right away. My husband has followed me. So, every move he’s had to find a job. And so there’s been periods of time at every step where he’d been unemployed and was living on savings until he found a job. And that is currently true for us as we just moved two months ago. So, he’s still he’s looking and does not have a job. And so, knowing that, you know, he’s set up savings, and also this piece of this transition has been around, “Okay, now my income is a lot higher than what his will be when he gets a job. And so then how do we balance bills?” Yes, jointly we have more money, but what he can contribute is less than what I could contribute. And so, we’ve talked about paying a percentage of whatever our bills are. So, if we’re going for right now, our finances are exactly the same as they were on postdoc. And so it’s easy to do what we were doing previously, but as we transition in the next few years to basically growing and towards home ownership, we might be able to afford a house that he wouldn’t be able to afford on his income alone. And so, then that’ll be a discussion of like how we’re going to handle that.

Commercial

26:52 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early-career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics, or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers, even while social distancing. Now, back to our interview.

Disadvantages of Joint and Separate Finances

27:51 Emily: So, that was kind of the end of my list of advantages that I see in joint finances. Was there anything that you wanted to add as like maybe disadvantages of your system? Disadvantages of my system, except if they haven’t already been covered by highlighting advantages of one or the other?

28:07 Michelle: I mean, the disadvantage of the separate model is around these transitions when your finances change substantially. And now it’s a matter of us having this discussion. Whereas, like you said, with the joint model, you wouldn’t have to do that if it’s built in.

28:28 Emily: One disadvantage of joint finances that I often see brought up. I don’t personally experience it, but a lot of people will bring up, what do you do about gifts? You know, what do you want to do when you want some secrecy, but it’s for the benefit right, of the other person and for that joy of gift giving? And I don’t experience this as an issue myself and I have some like, ideas about workarounds, basically. Like, sort of in my mind, if your only hangup about joint finances is gifts, there are easy ways to get around that and still have the totally joint model. If gifts are among other reasons why you don’t like the model, then that that’s fine. That can factor in. But like after I receive the gift and I was like, “How did you pull that off?” He’s like, “Oh, I know you check Mint. So, I did it on this random card that I just didn’t update from Mint.” So, that’s very tricky. I think an easier solution is just to use cash. Just take out cash and say, “Oh, I need some cash for some reason, don’t inquire too hard.” Or, “Oh, I’m buying you a gift, but you don’t know what it is yet.”

29:31 Emily: Or go to a place like Target or Amazon where you might be buying any kind of thing and let it be a secret for the time being. So, you might need to get a little bit tricky around gift-giving or at least having an agreement of like, you know, “I won’t look at that for a little while, while you’re getting me a gift.” But to me it seems like a pretty minor, I guess, speed bump in the model for joint finance. But it’s one that comes up a lot. So, I wanted to kind of address that.

29:57 Michelle: Unless, of course, your love language is gift giving and then it’s a very big deal. And so, I could see that being more important or more impactful to defining whether to have a joint account.

30:13 Emily: Yeah, I think that’s probably where, if it was something you were doing on a very regular basis, like every month or something like that, I can see–so, there’s sort of a subset of joint finances which is like joint with allowances. And so, your allowance could come out in cash so the other person doesn’t know what you do with it. Or it could even be two separate checking accounts, but your income goes into joint account. And then the separate account gets the, whatever it is, a hundred dollars a month, whatever your allowance is. And so, that’s a way that you can regularly keep some money from your spouse seeing it while still maintaining the spirit of the joint model. But of course, yeah, the bigger the component of your life this is, the more it argues that you need to have a specific system around figuring this out, which we obviously do not.

Unique Situations for Money Management as PhDs in a Relationship

31:02 Emily: One of the last questions here, Michelle, are there any attributes or situations unique to PhDs that might inform the choice of how to manage money in a relationship? So, I thought about living apart, which I mentioned earlier, my husband and I lived apart only for about three months. So, it was very short period of time a few years ago. But I have had friends, PhDs, sometimes two PhD couples, sometimes just one PhD couple, that have been living apart for years at a time because of training and stuff. You’ve been very fortunate and very supported that your husband has been following you around. Not everyone is able or willing to do that. So yeah, I guess I can see that this might inform the decision, right? Because the more, I guess separation you have like living in one place versus another, I think the more that supports the separate, or at least partially joint, partially separate models. Because as you were saying earlier, like you don’t have to, you do, but you don’t have to consult with your husband on decisions. That doesn’t really affect him, what you do with your own finances.

32:07 Emily: So to me, that model makes a lot of sense when the day-to-day decisions don’t really involve both of you. Right? And only involves one of you. And so, I felt that a little bit. I mean, again, I was only apart from my husband for a few months, but yeah, like what I did on a daily basis, the shopping or the eating out or whatever, like he wasn’t involved in any of that. So, it was a little bit odd that, you know, the money was still coming from our joint account. And so, I think that we did have a little bit less like sort of communication around what was going on. Like he just sort of was like, well, basically by that point, like we knew each other’s spending habits. And as long as we weren’t going outside of that, it didn’t really need to come up that much. But yeah, it was kind of odd to be like living in it in a different place and still withdrawing from that joint bank account. But you know, it was just a short period of time. So for us, it wasn’t, it didn’t warrant like changing the model, but yeah, I can see how there’s a reason to be a little bit more separate if your lives are kind of separate.

33:05 Michelle: I would say that’s pretty true for us. My husband’s not a PhD, not an academic by any means. And the culture around being a PhD and, you know, having to go to conferences and networking and sort of the things we spend money on that we wouldn’t spend money on if we weren’t PhDs, that’s very real for us. Because there are many times where I’m like, “Okay, so every November I have these two conferences and I know I’m going to be spending more money around that time.’ He doesn’t have to think about that at all. And if we had a joint account, we would always have to talk about that. And because we don’t, it’s not a thing that we need to discuss. He just knows that I go on these conferences and I’m still able to pay the bills. And it’s just made things a little bit smoother, I think. And he hasn’t needed to learn the culture of being a PhD because we have these separate accounts around money.

34:08 Emily: Yeah. That’s a really good point that like, especially PhD training and even, I guess, could be as a professor to some degree as well, there are certain demands that are made of your personal finances that would not be made if you were not a trainee or an academic. And that’s super unfortunate, but the reality. And so, like you said, he doesn’t need to be fully indoctrinated in the way that we are into how academia affects your personal finances because you have things separate. Yeah, that makes sense. I didn’t think about that. That we do have to pay for more things out of pocket than maybe somebody else would in another kind of career, wow.

34:53 Michelle: Conferences, memberships for different societies and things like that. But, you know, I can only imagine if we were to actually have a joint account, he would be like, “Why do you need to spend a hundred dollars on this membership, tell me how that’s going to benefit you in your everyday life? And the answer is, “It doesn’t really, but it does help me network and that will help advance my career.” And, you know, we don’t have to have that conversation.

PhD Finances: Handling Changes in Income

35:22 Emily: Yeah. Very, very interesting. The other one that I thought of regarding PhD finances is changes in income. So you, for example, have gone from needing to take out student loan debt and so forth to having a very nice salary, presumably now, and maybe other PhDs have less dramatic swings, but usually the completion of PhD training does involve hopefully a pay raise at some point, probably a big one. So that’s just been, I don’t know how that would maybe affect advantages of one model or another, but it just does affect how you handle your finances in general. And you mentioned earlier living like a postdoc, which is a great sort of mantra to live like a college student, live like a graduate student, live like a postdoc, live like a resident. These are all meaning the same thing of live well below your means and maintaining your prior lifestyle even through income increases.

36:12 Emily: So, it’s just a good kind of personal finance strategy in general. I guess this might play a little bit into what I was mentioning earlier about income disparity. Like between me and my husband, we went from being more equal incomes to be more, at a time, more disparate. And yeah. So, if PhD do experience, let’s say hopefully a jump in income, having the joint model can be helpful, I guess, in the sense that like, you’re, I guess you’re kind of in it to gather because at a point when maybe one person isn’t contributing as much to the household, that can be sort of smoothed out, I guess over time by the other person’s income being more like stable or something like that. And the other thing is that there is an upside usually to PhD finances, which is that jump in income later. And so both people benefit from the upside, like you were talking about earlier, like you’re talking about how you and your husband together, the household might benefit from your now great increase in income by perhaps splitting the percentage a little bit differently with the joint model that sort of comes baked in, right?

37:18 Emily: Like both people enjoy the upside, but they also are together on the downside. So there’s, yeah. There are two parts of that. Just something to think about, I guess, with PhDs and those income swings is what you would prefer. I wouldn’t necessarily say it argues more for one or the other, but just something to consider.

37:36 Michelle: For us, my debt is a detriment to us buying a house, but my income increase is the asset. And so, the way that we’ve kind of balanced that is pay down my debt, which I’m doing and I’m taking ownership of, right? Because it’s mine, it’s, you know, our separate accounts, and he doesn’t ever have to think about that necessarily. While at the same time I’m paying down debt, he can take his income and stack it away in savings. And so, eventually what he’s been able to save will help us buy a house and my income level will help us buy a house.

Would You Consider Changing Your Finance Model?

38:18 Emily: Gotcha. Yeah. So, you’re contributing, but it’s in like different ways kind of in the future. Yeah. That’s interesting. So, Michelle, do you see your model changing at any point? Do you foresee any circumstances that might cause you to reconsider this?

38:33 Michelle: I don’t think so. I don’t think so. It’s been working so well for 15 years that it’s hard to imagine a time when we would need to do something different.

38:46 Emily: Yeah. You guys have you have it down pat now, right?

38:49 Michelle: Yeah.

38:50 Emily: Yeah. I think on our side as I said, kind of earlier, as our income has increased as a household, we have more flexibility. Like, I sort of phrase it as when we had a lower income, we were much more strict about our budgeting and we had to agree a lot more. Now we have a little bit more autonomy because our income is higher. Like, if we want to do more discretionary spending. So, my husband’s really into buying electronics. Before we had sort of a strict budget on that. And I didn’t really care as long as he stayed within the budget, but it was kind of a low budget. Now, it’s more like, “Okay, you want to buy something?” He’ll talk to me about it. But ultimately I’m just like, “Well, if you want it, go ahead and get it.” We have much more flexibility now. And so that’s kind of, I guess, changed like our attitudes about it. I mean, everything is still joint and it’s still sort of a decision, but we just have a lot more freedom, I guess, both of us do to do more spending, should we choose to, or should we desire to.

39:48 Emily: I think that we will probably stick with the joint model because philosophically, it’s kind of like, we’re married, so we’re going to be joint. I’m not really opposed to the yours, mine and ours thing if it’s under the allowance model that I mentioned earlier. If maybe like, “Okay, you have a few hundred dollars a month, you can do whatever you want with and go ahead and I don’t need to know about it.” Like I can maybe see us moving to that at some point, but I don’t know necessarily why it would happen because it’s not something that causes friction for us right now. So, I don’t think it would in the future. But if it did, I’m okay with that allowance sort of system of it. I definitely don’t see us moving to being fully separate at any point, or even to the point where we would have our incomes be like deposited separately.

40:31 Emily: Because I just think, especially now that we have kids, it’s just the family, it’s just the household, like everything’s together. So yeah, I think the model will more or less stay as it is. Yeah. So, you know, Michelle, I appreciate you having this discussion with me so much and I hope the listeners have heard something that they resonated with for your model or for the model that I use or something that they disagree with and it’ll help them decide how things are going. It seems like things are really working well for you. So, I’m super happy about that. And obviously I feel that way about how things are working for us too. So, it just shows that, you know, people are different, relationships are different and how you handle your finances. It might look different. Like we, you know, we started off saying, okay, you do separate an I do joint. This is like, these are extremes on a spectrum. But really we can see that in both cases, the relationship has a shared vision of where we’re going in the future and agrees to a great deal, whether talked about or not, generally is an agreement with how things need to go. And yeah, the mechanics of it look a little bit different, but there’s a lot of commonality here as well. So, I was really happy to hear that. Any concluding thoughts from you?

41:34 Michelle: I would agree. I think both models can be effective and I think it ultimately will come down to what you value in your relationship. And as a person, that’s what’s going to drive your decision-making about what model you choose.

41:52 Emily: Yup, definitely. So, thank you so much Michelle.

41:54 Michelle: You’re welcome. Thank you.

Outtro

41:58 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How The Lucrative Artist Identifies and Reverses Negative Money Mindsets with His Clients

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Brian Witkowski, a Doctor of Musical Arts and the founder of The Lucrative Artist. Brian serves as a business and leadership development coach for artists and teachers. Brian often sees money mindsets in his clients that don’t serve them well, and these mindsets are common among PhDs as well. If left unchecked, these mindsets have detrimental effects on our finances. Brian and Emily discuss how to reverse negative money mindsets and how entrepreneurship is often the most lucrative and satisfying career for a PhD with a transformed money mindset.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

toxic money mindset academia

Teaser

00:00 Brian: When you’re starting out just by yourself, you don’t have to do all that. It’s just a matter of figuring out what’s your actual service, and who are the people you’re going to serve, and then what kind of value exchange you’re going to be creating that you can reasonably get paid pretty well for it, from the right people, in the right way.

Intro

00:20 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode eight and today my guest is Dr. Brian Witkowski, a doctor of musical arts and the founder of The Lucrative Artist. PhDs, like many artists, tend to have certain money mindsets that do not serve them well, such as a scarcity mindset. Brian and I discuss how negative money mindsets can detrimentally affect our finances and how to reverse them. For many PhDs, and Brian’s clients, the most lucrative and satisfying career path forward might be through entrepreneurship. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Brian Witkowski.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:06 Emily: I am delighted to have on the podcast today Dr. Brian Witkowski, and we’re going to be talking about mindset work and entrepreneurship and other fascinating topics like that. So, I’m really looking forward to this conversation and learning a lot from Brian. Brian, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for our audience?

01:23 Brian: Yeah, so I’m originally from Michigan. My grandparents immigrated from Poland. My dad grew up in a very poor area of Detroit and kind of aspired to a much higher middle-class life and worked his way up and eventually became a professor and then raised me to someday want to be a professor, too. Obviously, the world is a lot different today than it was for the generation back then. You know, I’ve had to explore how else, where I can take my teaching and my work and what I really want to do. And so, when that tenure track job, after I finished my doctorate eight years ago, didn’t quite come up, I started exploring other opportunities. I started to really think what else is not being taught that we all could be taught and how can I better serve people. So, I started studying more about business and finance and looking to see where we can help people. Especially as myself, I have a doctor of musical arts degree, and especially in music and the arts, we know nothing about finance or financial literacy.

02:13 Brian: There’s so much to be learned and needs to be learned. So, you not only can just, you know, understand about money and know how to conduct yourself in life. And because we can’t just expect those few jobs we’re trained for, we have to be entrepreneurs, we have to come up with multiple streams of income, and come up with other opportunities and open our minds up to creating new opportunities as opposed to competing for just a few things that less than 1% actually end up having. So, basically, entrepreneurship is kind of the new golden age for higher education in some ways, is what I like to say. Because we can take our expertise and leverage it in new ways and recreate different learning opportunities, not just for the people in the college classes but for the lifelong learners. So, that’s kind of where I’ve taken my teaching nowadays.

Unhealthy Money Mindsets

02:56 Emily: Oh, that’s fantastic. I’m so excited to dive more into all of that, and I’m really excited to have you on as a guest because a lot of my audience, I think, is currently still in PhD training as graduate students or postdocs or maybe closely following that. They may still be competing for that tenure-track job or not sure what they’re going to do if it doesn’t work out. And so I’m really glad to have you on as someone who’s several years further down that line and has a lot more life experience and career experience in that way. One of the things that we said that we would talk about during this interview was money mindset. Because I think the people who you work with through The Lucrative Artist and also the people who I see through Personal Finance for PhDs have some troubling mindsets around money. So, can you talk a little bit more about the mindsets that you see your clients that also maybe overlap with mine? The money mindsets that they have that don’t serve them very well?

03:48 Brian: In some ways, one thing that doesn’t serve a lot of people is just that mentality that we don’t have enough and there’s never enough there. And we always think that it’s a scarcity mindset complex that so many of us have. Even my own father did, even though his adulthood was phenomenally better than his childhood, he was still struggling financially as a professor just putting it all together. There’s a book called Rich Dad, Poor Dad* by Robert Kiyosaki. More or less, he talks about how his poor dad actually worked his way up in higher education and became the administrator in the state of Hawaii, and so forth. Back in the fifties and sixties, when his “poor dad” was his friend’s dad who didn’t have any college training and just focused on acquiring real estate and thinking about owning a business and trying to earn money that way. And so, he more or less points out how we’re not taught about how to actually earn money other than to expect the job. So, part of the mindset is having your mind open to the possibilities of where you can create new income opportunities and new sources of revenue, and so forth, for your personal life using all you have to offer.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

04:52 Emily: Yeah, I can definitely see how the scarcity mindset–if you’re thinking only that, again, that tenure-track job is the only one for you and the only thing that’s worth doing after after a doctorate–there is scarcity in terms of that actual career path. That’s not imagined. That’s perfectly real. But I guess the mindset that doesn’t serve you is thinking of course that that’s the only or the best option for you following finishing your higher education. So, to think a little bit more broadly about your career track would be, I guess, the way to combat that scarcity mindset. Any other kinds of mindsets that you see in those populations?

Aim High: Raise Your Anchor Point

05:30 Brian: The only thing is, I guess we’ve focused so much like on student loans and the cost of higher education. It’s like we let the four-figure, accruing interest, to get in the way of thinking how we could maybe use that same energy toward, “How can I create maybe six figures of income or more later on?” We don’t open our minds up to the possibility of earning way more than what certain salaries we’re used to or what our parents or colleagues are earning. In a lot of different ways, if we package our expertise and services in the right way, you can find that clientele or that other startup, that kind of business that can easily make you enough money to more than pay off your debt and then some. And sometimes we get so bogged down with getting depressed over having a big student loan sum and we don’t realize that yes, it’s not that great, but it’s better than some other forms of debt that are out there.

06:19 Emily: Yeah. So, I think that’s like having an anchor point, right? So, like you in your mind around the amount of money you can make, you have anchor points, whether it’s what you were earning as a graduate student, if you had a stipend or as a postdoc or what you expect to earn as a faculty member or another kind of professional. Or, like you were just saying, the balance of student loan debt that you have or maybe the living expenses that you have to cover each month. These are anchor points that float around in your mind as, “Okay, I need to make this much money.” But really there’s no limit to that. Like, why are you anchoring yourself there? Go ahead and anchor yourself at 10 times that amount or a hundred times that amount, maybe.

06:55 Brian: Yeah, definitely. And there’s one interesting exercise that I sometimes give the clients to consider. Okay, what are you earning right now? What would you have to become to suddenly earn double that? Like who are some role models out there? Because there’s always going to be somebody out there we can imagine who’s already making more than what you’re making that you could easily–sometimes not even actually do a whole lot more, but just adjust the way you’re presenting yourself and to the right audience, and so forth. And then figure out how we can double that from there. If all else fails, at the end of this exercise, people usually say they’re going to be Oprah or Tony Robbins or something, which is great. You’ve got to not be afraid to think big like that.

07:32 Brian: Too often we think small, we don’t think we can be these celebrities and these great leaders, but anyone can really grow themselves to be more than just what they thought they could. And sometimes we’re not taught enough of that in our school. My father taught leadership courses when he was a professor. So, those are classes where I’ve kind of avoided anything that he taught when I was in school. Hence, I’ve got a doctor of musical arts degree. His degree was in criminal justice. And so, I wanted to make sure I wasn’t just recreating everything I absorbed by osmosis as a child. I guess you could say it was part of my motivation to make sure I picked a very different degree program. But there’s so many of these things that my father taught in his classes that are not taught to people in the arts and so many other fields as far as management skills, how to interact with people, and what kind of personal growth is out there. We’re too conditioned to just do the exact training for the exact skill to get specific sets of jobs and not necessarily create the jobs instead.

Challenges in a Culture of Volunteerism

08:29 Emily: Mmm, yeah. Great point. So, anything else on your observations around detrimental money mindsets and then how they translate to ill effects in our finances?

08:42 Brian: Yeah, I think partly the scarcity mindset that sometimes starts with just the job market and the opportunities for earning money. Another problem is, especially in the arts and education fields, it’s almost like there’s a nonprofit aspect to it or more if you’re working for a religious institution or, in my case as a professional singer, getting paid to sing in churches and so forth. There’s that guilt trip kind of situation where some people who are cutting the checks kind of make you think you shouldn’t be earning as much as what you should be. And there are other situations too where it’s kind of like the negotiation turns into a coerced charitable contribution in some ways, but not in one in which you can actually get a tax deduction for your time in a concrete kind of way. So, it’s another situation we have to deal with, whether we’re in the arts or in education. There’s that mindset, “Wait, I’m not supposed to get paid this much. I’m supposed to do it for the children and do it for God or whoever, whatever the cause is, basically.” So, that kind of keeps people from realizing their potential. And then I try to tell people to be in a position where you can actually tithe or donate that 10% back as we all ideally should later in life.

09:49 Emily: Yeah, I agree to great, great extent. There’s this, I guess I call it kind of a toxic culture of like compulsory volunteerism in academia and in other similar fields. Exactly as you were saying. When the high level institution has some kind of nonprofit-like status that somehow translates to, “We don’t pay people what they’re worth or we don’t pay people to do work for us. We expect a degree of volunteerism.” I encounter this myself sometimes with institutions who want me to work without pay or with much less pay than I’m asking for. They can kind of use that, “Okay, well we’re a nonprofit,” as like an argument, somehow. But it’s just something that it’s hard to combat because as you said, when you’re sort of indoctrinated into that culture, you think, “Yes, well I’m supposed to be giving back. I’m supposed to be doing this for X, Y, Z. What about the people who won’t benefit from receiving my talents if I don’t take this opportunity?” But at the end of the day, you have to feed yourself, right?

Finding Balance in Value Exchange

10:54 Brian: Yeah. And that’s the other thing. I also tell people that, at the very least, it’s a two-way street. How can they serve me in return if there’s an imbalance in the actual value of exchange that’s taking place? At the very least, maybe that institution could give you a referral for another service you’re providing, or they might allow you to advertise something else. Or, like I tell people who are performing artists, maybe they can sell CDs or trade their mailing lists. There are other ways to at least get some kind of fair exchange of value if you open your mind to those things. I try to help people think about those things and make that happen so that at least if they’re not getting necessarily the actual money, maybe they’re getting a leisurely vacation out of it if it’s a traveling musical gig or something like that. They’re getting something that makes it still worth their while to otherwise feel like they’re volunteering their time.

11:41 Emily: Yeah. Something that can be mutually beneficial instead of just beneficial going one direction. Okay. So let’s say, you know, someone in our audience has identified, “Okay, well I do have that scarcity mindset,” or “Yeah, my anchor point is 10 times lower than it should be,” or what have you. Any of these money mindsets we’ve been talking about. How do you actually go about changing a money mindset that doesn’t serve you well once you’ve identified it?

Changing Your Money Mindset: Self-Talk

12:05 Brian: For me and for people who I work with, sometimes I give meditative exercises. You have to think positively. Positive manifestation-type statements, saying to yourself, “Your bank account may be empty,” but rather than say it’s empty, say, “It’s wide open and ready to receive.” It sounds silly, but you have got to think, “Okay, the money is going to come to me eventually.” You can’t think that you’re never going to get it. It’s just a matter of figuring out the right way to find the right people willing to give you that money, basically, for when you willingly deserve it and earn it.

12:37 Emily: So, it’s kind of about self-talk, then, I guess is what you’re saying? Like it’s about, “Okay, I’ve identified my bank account is empty. Oh, it’s always going to stay empty.” That’s the toxic mindset.

12:48 Brian: So, it’s reinforcing that negative stuff. And before you know it, you’re staying on the floor at the bottom and not working your way up. And then another thing is, there’s the song “Love is in the Air,” but also you could say money is in the air, too. The way the global economy works, the way money compounds everywhere, there’s always going to be enough. You know, sometimes we think, “If I take this job then suddenly somebody else is not going to have any money,” and that’s not how the world works, actually. When we keep getting all that we’re supposed to earn, then there’s more to give around and more to grow the pie.

13:22 Emily: Mhm, yeah. So, it’s not like a fixed pool of money, right, that we all are trying to grab a little bit of a piece of,  it’s about growing the entire economy–the entire pie for everyone. Is that what you’re saying?

13:34 Brian: Yeah, exactly.

13:34 Emily: Yeah, so we aren’t thinking, “Me gaining something is someone else losing something.” That’s not how it is.

13:40 Brian: Yup.

13:41 Emily: Yeah, great.

13:42 Brian: It’s how the markets work. If you notice, if you had invested a dollar a hundred years ago, it would probably be who knows how much now. It’s partly a result of that.

13:51 Emily: Mhm. Yeah. Anything else that we can do to change the money mindset aside from turning things in a more positive way and reinforcing that by self-talk?

Open Your Mind to New Revenue Streams

14:02 Brian: The other way probably: be open to thinking of new ways to earn, and be open to new revenue streams. Don’t be afraid to think outside the box as opposed to how you can make a living. Because we all get so caught up trying to apply for the exact same jobs and thinking these are the only ways to earn. There are so many different audiences out there and clientele that we could actually be serving that we don’t even think about. Especially for myself. People, my colleagues mostly, aspire to teach students who are college students and aspiring professional singers. And it’s kind of like we subconsciously only focus on the clientele that is like ourselves. And we don’t realize there’s another whole clientele out there that might be willing to pay way more, or you could actually set up scalable situations where you could easily earn way than you otherwise are used to earning. So, you’ve got to let go of that in one direction and think 360 every way around you, there’s something more you could probably do.

15:00 Emily: Yeah, I think this kind of relates. For people who are still in academia, they might not feel very special because everyone they’re surrounded by also has crazy advanced degrees. Very smart, very talented, very trained in a similar way. But if you can turn and look outside of that immediate environment like you’re talking about, you can see that there are many, many other opportunities to serve different groups of people or to leverage your skills in a different kind of way. And once you do step outside the ivory tower, your skills are going to be regarded in a way that you’re not used to. Right? They’re going to be much more highly looked upon because you are special. There’s only like 2% of the population or less or something that has doctoral level degrees. So, it’s not actually that common if you find the right group to serve. So, this translates really well once you’ve opened your mind to these other types of clients and other types of work that you might be able to do. At that point, why is self-employment more attractive than a job? Or why does self-employment serve you better with a different kind of money mindset than a job would?

You Can Be Self-Employed and Still Have a Job

16:07 Brian: It’s not necessarily mutually exclusive from having a job. And I think sometimes people get caught up thinking they have to quit their job and suddenly be a sole business owner right away. Not necessarily, although sometimes there are situations where you just need to get out of a toxic environment that doesn’t pay you enough. Then you easily find that one client and you can easily–or a few clients–you can suddenly afford to just say farewell to the job that wasn’t really serving you. But I think when you’re stuck in a job, you’re stuck with a cap on your income. Whereas if you start a business, you could think owning your own business, being self-employed, you’re open to more possibilities and there’s no limit necessarily. So, it’s like you’re removing an artificial cap and you’re also giving yourself more freedom once you get it going, you find the right clientele to serve, and so forth.

16:51 Emily: Yeah, I think this goes back exactly to that Rich Dad, Poor Dad book or idea that you were talking about earlier. The poor dad, right, has a job and his income is, as you were just saying, capped and scaled by the employer. It’s sort of out of his hands, right? But the rich dad is an entrepreneur and–well, Robert Kiyosaki’s really into real estate, so lots of different ways to be an entrepreneur–and in that case, the income streams are unlimited. And each income stream itself is unlimited in how much money you can actually bring in. So, there’s a downside to that, but there’s a big, big, big upside too, if you choose to walk away from a job. Which, like you said, it doesn’t have to be all or nothing. So, some people in my audience, again, are still in training. Self-employment is something that they can do on the side while they’re still in graduate school, while they’re still in a postdoc for now, as long as it’s permitted by their visa and their job and everything. But it’s something you can dip your toe into and see how it’s going, and you don’t have to just take the leap, like you said, right away.

17:53 Brian: Yeah, definitely.

Commercial

17:58 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us, and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns, from free articles and videos to paid at-your-own-pace workshops to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax. That’s P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now, back to the interview.

Pay Attention to What is Not Being Taught

19:01 Brian: The great thing is, while you’re still in grad school, it’s your perfect opportunity to realize what is everybody doing the same? Where do you feel like you’re literally just in “the Matrix,” and what’s not being done? I stress to people that it’s the perfect time to really observe and reflect and take notes for what’s going on and what’s not being taught that still needs to be taught in real life. Because there’s just so much of that that still needs to be taught. Whether it’s with finances or just personal development or other aspects of just knowing how to live. Too many aspects of our degrees are just kind of geared to train us for specific jobs but not for creating jobs. So, one strategy is to just observe what’s not being taught. And then how could you actually teach that? I like to joke with people who are getting their terminal degrees, their PhDs, that they could actually create something in which those same people who may not hire you for a faculty job might actually hire you to do their professional development. Because you never know. That fresh perspective of being young, just finished your degree, and offering a different viewpoint is something that’s going to be valuable to them.

20:07 Emily: You’re exactly describing my own journey into Personal Finance for PhDs, because what was going on for me in graduate school was, I was learning about personal finance because I had to apply it in my own life, or felt that I had to, right? So, I was learning how to apply it and then over some time sort of looking at the way my university was or was not supporting that growth and that journey. And I should say that Duke, which is where I did my PhD, actually does a great job with personal finance in comparison to many, many other institutions. But even so, I could see that there was more that could be done there. And that’s exactly how I stepped into my business was seeing, “Okay, well no one is teaching personal finance from the perspective of a graduate student or a postdoc or a PhD. They’re teaching personal finance from the perspective of a CPA or a financial advisor who deals with very, very wealthy clients.” And this is just completely foreign to the people that I was coming out of. And so, I decided to turn around, right? And teach the people who are coming up behind me those principles. So, exactly what you described. And as you said, I never applied for jobs, universities, or faculty positions, but I am now hired by plenty of universities to do professional development in this area. So, it’s totally, totally, exactly what you said.

Different Business Models for PhDs

21:22 Emily: So, what are the different business models that you can see with PhDs or other people with doctorates that are successful, that are easy for them to access, given the skills they’ve been learning throughout their higher education?

21:35 Brian: Yeah. One thing is just to simply think, “What kind of professional development services could I offer? Are there businesses, are there organizations or clients where what I have to offer with my knowledge and expertise can be valuable to them?” And sometimes it’s not necessarily just regurgitating the same content, but how can you repackage it in a way that is more meaningful to them. Sometimes, with my work, I stress that you can kind of integrate some personal development, leadership growth, using your content as the vehicle, so that people are thinking not just that they’re learning more about a certain thing about history, but they’re realizing how their own life embodies that same historical thing you’re trying to reinforce. Find something like that.

22:19 Brian: It personalizes it more and really fits the clientele or the audience that you’re serving. So, there’s that. Sometimes you can do something as simple as different kinds of coaching, whether it’s life coaching, business coaching. There are so many forms of coaching out there that still people need to hire people. That’s not enough just to go about life waiting for the job or expecting your business to take off. We always need more people to help us in different ways to give us different perspectives, different viewpoints to push us in different ways. In the arts, even though I have my degrees, I still take voice lessons. My voice is an evolving instrument. I’m always learning how to use it in different ways. And the older I get, the different kind of repertoire I suddenly get to sing. So, it’s a never ending thing. And there are other aspects of life where it’s the same way. So, people with PhDs and other graduate degrees, just that background alone gives credibility with certain types of audience members.

Self-Employed PhD and Beyond the Professoriate

23:11 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. So, I’m part of a community called Self-Employed PhD, which is underneath the Beyond the Professoriate umbrella program. And so, what Jen Polk and Maren Wood do, who run that program, is they are career coaches for PhDs. And there are many other people who have stepped into the same area. Seeing again like we were just talking about that a lot of universities don’t prepare PhDs well for knowing the possibilities for their careers outside of academia or being prepared to actually apply for those jobs or network for those jobs or get those jobs. Many people have decided to become career coaches in this area because there is a lack of support from many universities in that area. So, exactly what you’re just saying. Any other business models that you see as very accessible for this audience?

Think Big, Think Lifelong Learning

23:56 Brian: Sometimes it can just be simply, create your own school. It might even rival your university. Don’t be afraid to think big like that. Or something else to that effect. Some kind of supplementary, after-school program for elementary kids or high school. Really any age group. I read an article that there is going to be an enrollment crash in higher education soon where suddenly, because there’s going to be way more retirees than young people, not as many young people enrolling in college. So, more job cuts and other drama might be around the corner. But at the same time, we have a retirement population that is just growing, and they’re bored. There are ways to serve them. So, rather than think higher education, think lifelong learning or higher learning and other things you can offer that can serve any kind of population.

24:45 Emily: Hmm. Yeah. If what you really wanted to do when you were pursuing that faculty position was teach–I mean there are so many different audiences and different ways that you can do that. Even within the subject matter that you were highly trained in, if you want to stay in that area.

24:59 Brian: If you’re willing to leave the country, there are 7.6 billion people in the world. There’s going to be somebody out there who will pay you to teach them something.

25:06 Emily: Yeah. Or work online, and have access to everybody in the world. Yeah. Any other business models you want to add to that list?

Other Business/Teaching Models

25:14 Brian: Yeah, one-on-one coaching, teaching, offering professional development seminars or other workshops, and so forth, using your expertise. Also, you don’t necessarily have to not teach the same students you’re expected to teach that you went through school. You just need to be offering them something that’s different from what they’re used to. So, that’s why I also, with my own business, I help people specifically in the arts figure out how can I do this likewise? How can I create something different and empower myself to have control over my career and do more of the things I actually authentically want to do? Because one thing, especially in the arts, there’s a lot of interesting toxicity that goes on when it comes to career expectations. Especially with professional singers. We have a lot of people who started their careers in the last century and sometimes they just went about teaching as if that last century way of life was still going about and everybody could easily have the same career they had. Or at least that’s how they’d go about, conduct themselves, and just kind of otherwise disregard your actual career and what you’d be doing.

26:16 Brian: You have to really be more of an entrepreneur nowadays as a performing artist if you’re not going to suddenly get some of those few jobs that are still out there. So, position yourself to help those same people who are in your field, not getting the help they probably should have had.

26:29 Emily: Mhm. Yeah. And you mentioning actually using the specific skill you’re trained in, singing. But I’m thinking about–so I have a colleague named Chris Cloney who has a business doing research. He has an independent research company, specifically translating the research that he did as a PhD student into basically another way of delivering it to the world. So, we’ve talked about teaching and coaching and speaking and so forth, which is what you and I do. But there are other ways to translate even more precisely what you were doing in graduate school into the entrepreneurial sphere instead of just going after a job. So, you brought up what you’re doing through The Lucrative Artist. I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about that. Maybe a couple of minutes on how you came to this point. We’ve already heard some of that journey, and then what you do for clients right now.

Brian’s Work with The Lucrative Artist

27:16 Brian: Yeah. So, what I do is I help clients literally figure it out. Sometimes, the biggest barrier that we need to break through is figure out what else we can do other than those few jobs we were conditioned to expect to get. And so I help people think, “Okay, how can I assess all your skills and your strengths, your weaknesses? What’s something that you can synthesize that can actually become a viable product or service that you could give to other people? And you’re more or less in a position where you’re not having to worry about competing against other people and you’re serving the audience that really wants you to serve them and so forth?” And so helping people really package that together. We do authenticity training where we think, “What is it we really, truly want to do?”

27:57 Brian: Like, “What is your purpose? What really drove you to want to teach? And how can you get more to that?” Like for me, it wasn’t really necessarily about the actual content, but it’s about helping people really actually change their lives. Like I’ve witnessed my father as a child, growing up. He did the same thing with his students, seeing people who were, likewise like him, grew up really poor, had no idea what they’d be doing later in life. Then finally they realized, “Oh, I can learn this. I can do this.” And suddenly they have great jobs or they have their own businesses, they’re making a great living, and so forth. So, helping people realize there is another way out there, and anyone’s capable of doing it. And then basically once people figure out what ideal business would be for them, what kind of service they’d be providing–sometimes there’s not a specific service, it’s like a bunch of different services related to themselves through their art form. So, for people in singing, for example, sometimes it’s teaching lessons, sometimes it’s teaching speaking lessons, presentation lessons, helping people patch together other skills related to their singing. So, they’re not just performing, but they’re also providing expertise and educating the public more about the works to bring awareness and you know, make that same connection between a certain classical work and you know, what its audience is going through right now.

Combat Limiting Beliefs and Imposter Syndrome

29:12 Emily: That sounds like, based on what we were kind of talking about earlier, you help people identify the limiting beliefs they have, the mindsets they have around their career, for example, and then coach them in how to combat that within themselves. I guess I just think about this as related to imposter syndrome, right? There’s nothing that we are trained for to do outside of academia. All we can do is teach. And if we can’t get that job, we’re like worthless, right? That’s a horrible thing to think about yourself. But I think it’s indoctrinated into so many of us who go through academia to have that imposter syndrome that “I’m not worthy of another kind of job. I’m not worthy of being able to start a business. I don’t have translatable skills into these other areas.” And so, once people see, “Okay, well this is what’s holding me back. I’m going to engage Brian,” you help them turn those mindsets around in a very practical way. Because you can say, “No, here is what you need to be telling yourself instead of what you have been thinking.” And then they do the work, right? To actually uproot those mindsets.

30:14 Brian: Yeah. And then once they get through there, once they realize what they want to do, then I coach them through step-by-step, “What can I do to actually make a viable business take off the ground.” And it’s not always necessarily too scary or confusing. Some people, you tell them you’re helping them grow a business, they want to see all these weird numbers and other things. And when you’re starting now just by yourself, you don’t have to do all that. It’s just a matter of figuring out what’s your actual service and who are the people you’re going to serve and then what kind of value exchange you’re going to be creating that you can reasonably get paid pretty well for from the right people in the right way. And it’s a matter of figuring out how you can package that and who you’d be serving.

Growing a Business is a Gradual Process

30:52 Emily: Yeah. I think some people when they hear like starting a business, they think about the startup world and where you have to have a highly refined business plan you’re pitching to investors and so forth. And it is really important to have this high degree of models and understanding of what you’re going to be doing in that world. But just to dip your toe into self-employment is much, much, less than that. You don’t have to do all that. You have to try out some things, see what people aren’t going to pay you for it, see what you like to do. It’s a lot of experimentation at the beginning and it’s not really high stakes.

31:21 Brian: Yeah, exactly. I love helping people, walk them through that and realize, “Oh, I can do this.” And yes, there’s actually a demand. One interesting exercise to really take people through is just called hot or not. What are some ideas that can work, and we talk them out. And then we also might contact some other people and see what they think about that if it’s a totally new thing that they hadn’t heard of before. And just a matter of, you need an opportunity to just test the waters and you openly be in a safe environment where you can express ideas without somebody thinking you’re stupid or whatever. There’s no stupid idea. There’s, you know, millions of ideas everywhere. And it’s a matter of figuring out how to piece together to create something viable as far as the business goes.

Origin of The Lucrative Artist

32:00 Emily: Mhm. Yeah, that gives me a good idea of what your services are. But I wanted to ask you about your name, The Lucrative Artist, which is very provocative. So, can you tell us a little bit how you came to that?

32:09 Brian: It’s fascinating. It’s a provocative word. It’s a word they say all the time on CNBC and all the other finance channel for other businesses. But for some reason we’re conditioned to think we have to starve as artists. And it’s not necessarily the case. So, I try and help people realize, “No, actually if you’re getting paid what you deserve and what you should be, you’re actually in a position to make even higher quality art and you’re serving people even better.” So, it’s actually an empowering mindset that better serves them later on.

32:39 Emily: Yeah, I love that. Oh my gosh. Well, where can people find you?

32:42 Brian: Well, my website, thelucrativeartist.com, the lucrative artist, three words there, .com or there’s facebook.com/thelucrativeartist where I’m active on a Facebook page. I also have a Twitter and an Instagram where I try to be accessible to as many people as possible through all those platforms, wherever the world’s taken me. There’s a Self-Employment in the Arts conference taking place in Chicago in February that I’ll be presenting at. And also some universities here and there. I’ll be doing some presentations and masterclasses and so forth. So, I try to be all-around.

Best Advice for an Early-Career PhD

33:13 Emily: Sounds awesome. So, final question. This is a standard one that I ask all my guests, which is what is your best advice for another early-career PhD or another early-career doctor? And this could be something related to what we’ve talked about today or it could be completely other.

33:30 Brian: Yeah, I think as far as the best advice, always keep a mind open to creating new sources of income and having multiple sources of income coming in. And think of ways you could create some passive income for yourself as well as the active income. And then, when you’re in your PhD, look and see what everybody else is doing and then think, “What is everybody not doing they should be doing?” And realize that might be a gold mine of a business opportunity just waiting to happen. So, just to open your mind up to that possibility and not being afraid to go for it.

34:03 Emily: Thank you so much, Brian. Thank you so much for the interview. I’ve learned a lot. I hope the audience has as well.

34:07 Brian: I really appreciate it.

Outtro

34:07 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode. And remember, you don’t have to have PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive, and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Behavioral Finance Expert Gives Incredible Career and Financial Advice to PhDs

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Daniel Crosby, an author and expert in behavioral finance. Upon completing his PhD in clinical psychology, Daniel realized for the first time that an academic salary would not afford him the lifestyle he wanted. He instead pivoted to translating the academic research in behavioral finance for working financial advisors, and he currently serves as the Chief Behavioral Officer for Brinker Capital. Daniel shares how he’s applied the principles of behavioral finance in his own life and specific career and financial advice for early-career PhDs, particularly those exiting PhD training.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

PhD behavioral finance

Teaser

00:00 Daniel: And rather than saying, “Oh, I’m a PhD in psychology, so let me do PhD in psychology things”, I thought, well, I know to have great conversations with people. I know how to run a training. I know how to read human emotion and human behavior and all of these things, when you conceive of them as building blocks, you can repurpose those building blocks in different ways and create a host of opportunities for yourself.

Introduction

00:34 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode eleven and today my guest is Dr. Daniel Crosby, an author and expert in behavioral finance. Upon completing his PhD in clinical psychology, Daniel realized, for the first time, that an academic salary would not afford him the lifestyle he wanted, so he pivoted to translating the academic research in payroll finance for working financial advisors. Daniel shares how he’s applied the principles of behavioral finance in his own life and gives specific career and financial advice and encouragement for early career PhDs, particularly those about to finish their PhD training. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Daniel Crosby.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:23 Emily: I have the pleasure today of hosting Dr. Daniel Crosby on the podcast. He is a certified expert in behavioral finance. I’m really, really pleased that he agreed to come on. And Daniel, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further and tell the listeners about the fantastic career you’ve had?

01:41 Daniel: Great to be here. Thank you for having me. I am the chief behavioral officer at Brinker Capital, which is a multibillion dollar asset manager based outside of Philly. There’s not many chief behavioral officers in the world, I guess, so by way of explanation, what I do is I create training, tools, and technology that help people make better decisions with their money. I am a clinical psychologist by education, but really haven’t spent any of my professional career in a clinical setting. I quickly learned in grad school that I loved thinking deeply about why people do the things they do, but I didn’t love working in a medical setting. I’ve looked for business applications of the thing that I studied, and I know you know what it’s like to pivot, so my career has been wild and crazy, but it’s been a great one.

Going from Psychology PhD to Chief Behavioral Officer

02:39 Emily: Can you take us back? Tell us more about your education and at what point you decided that you weren’t actually going to go that traditional, clinical route with your degrees?

02:50 Daniel: My undergrad was in psychology. Loved it. I’m the son of a financial advisor, so I went into school thinking I would study finance and be a financial advisor. Took some general ed courses in psychology and just absolutely fell in love, knew that that’s what I wanted to do, started my PhD three days after I finished my bachelor’s. I was really just on a good path to get going with this. But about three years into my doctoral program, I had just kind of had enough. I don’t think I’m wired to listen to 40 hours a week of heavy stuff. It’s hard to be that empathetic. It’s hard to not let that bleed into your own life and your own wellness, and I was just really taking my client’s problems home with me, candidly. And I said, you know, this is just a lot. The final nail in the coffin for me though, I was still sort of on the fence as I was wrapping up my PhD, I had an inkling that I would like to apply this in a business setting, but wasn’t quite sure how, so I interviewed for a dual appointment position at a local university, which would have been half teaching, half counseling and the pay was so bad. I got offered the job and the pay was just so ridiculously bad that when I sat down and did the math with my wife, I was just, there’s no way this can work. I think it’s instructive that I, as the son of a financial advisor, someone who is interested in finance, finished an entire PhD, kind of never doing the math on how the thing I was studying would put food on my table. That’s sort of an embarrassing, but true story, is to get to the end of this road that I was passionate about and then go, “Oh, well geez, what am I going to do with this?” So then I was sort of left scrambling with how can I actually make a living at this thing I’ve just spent eight years studying.

05:05 Emily: I think that’s going to be a very relatable story to a lot of people in the audience of hearing that advice, follow your passion and doing it, and doing it at a high level, and getting to the end of it and saying, “well, now what do I do?” In your case, it was because the dual position that you applied for was not attractive, financially. That could be the reason, certainly for people in the audience, why they don’t continue on the expected career path. But for many people who want to go into academia, it’s just that the jobs aren’t there. That’s the main problem is that there’s just no jobs to be had or very, very few, and so they end up having to look elsewhere. So super, super relatable story there. Would you mind me asking, was your graduate degree, did you go into debt for that or was that paid for, was it a combination?

05:52 Daniel: It was paid for. PhD programs in psychology are very selective, they’re very small, so there were only like five people in my cohort. If you get in, it’s paid for through assistantships. Then, through nothing but luck, I had parents who were in a position to support me in other ways. My parents kept the food on the table and a roof over my head, and the tuition itself was paid for, so I came out with no debt.

06:26 Emily: I see. So when you were sitting down to do that salary calculation, it wasn’t debt that was necessarily causing your initial needed number to rise, but rather just simply the cost of living and supporting your family and so forth.

06:39 Daniel: Yeah. It wasn’t debt. It was just like, “wow, I’m going to work forever.” It was crazy because it paid less than a kindergarten teacher. You go teach at a high level, at a college, go to all this school and you should have just taught first grade. The pay was much better, if you can believe it, and I think you probably can. That was just a shock to me. I had never really put pen to paper about how the jobs that were available to me would coincide with the kind of life I wanted to live. Then the other thing is, as you said, so many of the jobs — I was lucky to get a job offer in my hometown — but you know, many, many times you’re forced to move to someplace you don’t want to live or somewhere very out of the way to start your career. And that’s its own set of trade-offs, certainly.

07:34 Emily: When you decided, “okay, that’s not a viable route over there, I have to pivot and do something else,” ten or so years later, you’ve come to this point where you’re the chief behavioral officer somewhere.

What is Behavior Finance?

Emily: I want to hear more about what behavioral finance is and did that exist as a field when you came out or have you been part of developing that? What’s been the transition both for your career and also for that field over that time?

08:00 Daniel: Great question. I got out and I said, “look, I need to pivot to something that is a little better for my sanity and is also a little better paying.” I began to explore jobs in organizational behavior, organizational psychology, behavioral economics, behavioral finance, and really, no one would take a chance on me because this is 2008 and the economy’s not exactly fantastic. I’m out there, 29 years old looking, looking for a job and I’m applying for jobs in fields where I candidly have no experience, because I have this PhD in clinical psychology and they go, “well, this is, you know, industrial psychology or organizational psychology.” And so I got a lot of doors slammed in my face. And really it was just luck. I applied at an organizational behavior firm where the boss, the founder of this firm had a clinical background and had sort of made his way in the world. My story resonated with him and he saw enough potential there to take a chance. Again, I think anyone who has any modicum of career success can point to times in their career where they just got lucky. That was certainly one for me, where he saw himself in me, took a chance on me and knew what it was like to be in my position, because I just wasn’t getting a look at most places because I didn’t have the right sort of psychology background.

09:47 Daniel: In terms of the field of behavioral finance, behavioral finance is just sort of the study of finance that incorporates the messiness of human beings. A lot of standard financial and econometric models are based on simplifications of human behavior that make humans look more rational than they really are. Behavioral finance is just finance with human irrationality factored in and talking about the way that we make quirky decisions with our money. This was a field that was around. Not too many years later they gave out a couple of Nobel prizes for it. The good thing for me, sort of the niche that I found, was there were people out there charging $200,000 an appearance. These Nobel prize winning folks were out there charging a $100,000 to $200,000 every time they gave a speech and multimillion dollar contracts for consulting, but there was no one that was more affordable and there was no one that was more applied. There just weren’t many people doing more reasonable applied behavioral finance work and taking these great ideas that these folks had come up with and taking them out of the ivory tower and putting them on the desks of everyday people or everyday financial advisers. That’s sort of where my niche — my niche became being the more affordable, more practical options.

11:23 Emily: But it sounds like what you were doing was really taking academic research and translating into what can be then used on the ground by, as you said, advisors and perhaps other people, is that right?

11:35 Daniel: Yeah, that’s right. I mean that’s been sort of the trajectory of my whole career is as an intermediary between people who are much smarter than me and people who haven’t been exposed to these ideas. I sort of view myself as a translator to take these ideas, this research, and make it speak to the lives of everyday people.

11:57 Emily: This actually reminds me, from what you were saying, of my physics training, which is what I did my undergraduate degree in, where you basically assume that everything is a sphere, so the calculations are actually manageable because if you actually look at what things are, real shapes and so forth, it’s just the math is completely beyond what’s possible. Of course, not everything is a sphere, but you have to assume they are to make the math work. It reminds me of that.

12:23 Emily: I am curious if anything in your personal history — going through the PhD process and then, and then coming out as an early career PhD, and this job search and so forth — has any of that informed the work that you’re doing now within behavioral finance? Any of that personal stuff informing that?

12:41 Daniel: I don’t think so, really. I don’t think that really informs a ton of what I do from day to day. It probably informs my parenting more than my work. I have three young children and my wife and I talked, that as we raise them, I’m just trying to give them a more expansive look at the world of work and maybe a more detailed look at finding the sweet spot between following your passion and doing work that gives you the kind of life that you want. Because one thing that my studies have shown me is that we all measure what normal is on a relative basis. This is true of everything from mental health to wealth. Normal for you is financially is just kind of what you grew up with, so I think you need to be candid with your children about how they grew up and what normal is and what normal isn’t. So yeah, it probably impacts the way that I parent more than more than anything else.

13:51 Emily: Gotcha. What about the reverse ways, from taking what you’ve been learning about personal finance and behavioral finance since you pivoted into that field? Have you taken any of what you learned and applied it in your personal life or were you already kinda there with what you grew up with your particular parents?

14:09 Daniel: Yeah. What’s interesting is I have applied a lot of what I’ve learned from behavioral finance into my own life. But one of the primary ways that I’ve done this is by knowing what I don’t know. I remember, and I think every PhD has this experience, I remember I started my program when I was 23 years old. I start this PhD in psychology, 23 years old, thinking I know everything, get out a couple of years later and I’m like, did I learn anything? I feel like I know less than I did before. I think I have more questions than answers now. Especially when what you’re studying is something as hard to get your arms around as human behavior, you never quite get good at it. One of the primary things that I’ve learned from my years of study of finance is that nobody really knows anything and that knowledge is a weak predictor of behavior. I work with a financial advisor myself. And not to toot my own horn here, but I think when it comes to knowledge of markets and things, I probably know more than my advisor, but that’s not why I pay him. I pay him to keep me out of my own way. I pay him to be a barrier between me and the sort of bad behaviors I study because I know that simple knowledge of the sort of biased, irrational poor behavior that I study is a weak predictor of doing the opposite. I know I’m no better than the next person, no matter how many books I write on the subject. I take pains to diversify, to keep my fees low and to work with someone who will keep me out of my own way.

16:01 Emily: Yeah. I think this is something that’s maybe not well understood by the public. That you may be paying an advisor for expertise — you are not necessarily, but someone else may be — but an even more important role is, as you just said, to kind of talk you off the ledge from carrying out bad behaviors that you’re inclined to do as any human naturally would. You’re specifically talking right now within the realm of investing, is that right? Or does your advisor help you with other decisions as well?

16:31 Daniel: He does help me with things around, you know, the purchase of a home. He’s sort of a sounding board for things like college savings for my kids, the purchase of a home. But I’m primarily focused on investing and investing professionally is my primary focus.

Commercial

16:53 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money, but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series, as you make changes over the long term. You can find out more at PFforPhDs.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part coaching, part course, and part community. You can find out more and join the wait list for the next time I open the program at PFforPhDs.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Human Emotions and Financial Decisions

18:08 Emily: Is there anything else that you have learned, and then applied in your own life, aside from putting a bit of distance between yourself and being able to make a fast decision?

18:18 Daniel: Well, one of the hallmarks of behavioral finances talks about overcoming emotion. A lot of what we talk about is how do we keep people from making these emotionally laden decisions, but one of the other things you learn when you’re studying human behavior is that it’s always easier to roll with a behavioral tendency than to push against it. There’s cool research that shows that people who look at a picture of their children for five seconds before making a financial decision save more, are more likely to stay the course, et cetera. Similarly, we find that people who invest in ways that are aligned with their own personal preferences around the world that they want, in terms of social issues, environmental issues, tend to be better behaved. So I’ve tried to build some emotion into my process. I’ve tried to keep the things and the people that I love at the front of my mind and central in the planning and investing process, and I’ve tried to invest in a way that’s consistent with my values, because I think that it makes it a little stickier than say owning the S&P 500. It just personalizes it a bit. I think that those are both powerful ways to make investing a little more fun, to make the investing and planning process a little more personal and to bring about some good behavior in the end as well.

19:51 Emily: I really love those suggestions. I think I’ve also, maybe in the similar vein of looking at a picture of your children, I’ve heard that if you look at a picture of yourself aged up, you make different decisions. Is that right?

20:04 Daniel: That is right. Yeah. One of the things you learn a lot about in behavioral finance is salience and salience is just the ease with which you can sort of imagine or tap into a situation. As I sit here, I’ll be 40 next week, so as I sit here at nearly 40 years of age, it’s hard for me to imagine 80 year old Daniel, right? The idea of a guy who walks with a cane and has gray hair and stuff, it feels a little remote. People have found that if you age your face, you’re basically making it a more visceral experience to imagine yourself as this 80 year old version of yourself, it brings about better behavior. Again, that’s an imperfect example of how you imbue the process with a little emotion to help you make the right decision.

20:56 Emily: I actually had a client asked me recently what I thought about the particular RoboAdvisor Ellevest and she followed that up with, well, I’m really passionate about women and empowering women and all these things that were sort of in line with Ellevest’s mission. And I said to her, well, it sounds like you’re really excited about that, so I think they’re fine and go for it. Because, as you were saying earlier, if it it lines with her values, that particular manner of investing, she’ll probably be more likely to throw more money at it, engage with it more, and have a better outcome. Is that right?

21:27 Daniel: Yeah, that is. Without speaking to the particulars of Ellevest, I don’t know all the ins and outs of it enough to say one way or the other, I have a lot of respect for Sallie Krawcheck who heads up a Ellevest. But in general, you’re more likely to contribute to, and stay the course in your women’s leadership fund than you are your S&P 500 fund because it’s personalized, it’s tailored to you and your values and, not making any promises here, but there is also research to suggest that the kind of companies folks like Ellevest seek out, companies that have better female representation on boards and things, there’s historical research to suggest that those companies have outperformed the broad market, at least historically. I think there’s every reason to try and personalize your investing to your own preferences, feel like you’re doing a little good in the world, and if that helps to animate you to stay the course or to set aside a little money, both of which are very psychologically difficult, more power.

Behavioral Finance Strategies for the PhD

22:35 Emily: Absolutely. Yeah. Another question here. We’ve started to get some insights into this behavioral finance stuff, maybe for the general population, but I’m wondering if you see that there are any personal finance pitfalls that you think PhDs might be particularly susceptible to falling into, and then what strategies might there be to not do that?

22:59 Daniel: I’ve observed — I’ll speak to psychologists, doctors of psychology in particular, but I think that this probably applies to PhDs broadly — a lot of times we get a PhD because we want deep domain-specific knowledge, right? We get into this because we love it. We want to be the best in the world at it, but almost every position needs a bit of business savvy, and I think that we have more power than we realize. I think this power takes a couple of forms. I think first of all, you need the power to negotiate a salary. That first job you get is more predictive of your ultimate wealth than just about anything else, because it benchmarks every subsequent salary conversation. Being comfortable negotiating that first salary — I remember that first job, you feel lucky just to be there. You beat out 20 other talented people to get the offer, but don’t be afraid to know your worth and to negotiate that salary. I would say PhDs need a little business training, because we have this deep domain-specific knowledge, but we don’t know, sometimes I feel like, how to do more practical things. I think get a little bit of business knowledge.

Daniel: Then a third thing and I would say the thing that has probably served me best in my career, financially, is to just think creatively about your role. If I had stayed on the prescribed path of being a dual-appointed college counselor, I would make a fraction of what I make now. Because I thought expansively about the things that I learned in school, and rather than saying, “Oh, I’m a PhD in psychology, so let me do PhD in psychology things” I thought, well, I know to have great conversations with people. I know how to run a training. I know how to read human emotion and human behavior and all of these things, when you conceive of them as building blocks, you can repurpose those building blocks in different ways and create a host of opportunities for yourself. Rather than thinking about one prescribed path, think about your education as a series of building blocks, a series of competencies that you can repurpose in any number of ways to do a host of different things. Finally, I would say don’t be scared to get out of academia. Because when I was in academia, you’re a face in the crowd, you’re one PhD among many. But when you get out in the real world, when you get out in the business world, you’re special and people respect your expertise in a way that they might not necessarily in a university setting. Lots to be said for a university setting of course, but I think don’t be scared to get out there to try something new and to know your worth.

Dealing With an Income Increase Post-PhD

26:20 Emily: Such wonderful advice and you put that so well. Thank you. I’m wondering if you have any advice for a person in this situation, which is something that you went through, which is a person who is about to come on a large income increase? They’ve been in training, grad school, postdoc, whatever it might be, and now they’re going out there and doubling or tripling, or more, their salary, potentially in industry, or similar. What behavioral finance concept should that person know about and be applying in that situation?

26:50 Daniel: This is a great question. The concept to know here is what’s called the hedonic treadmill, which says that, as our earning increases, our consumption or spending tends to increase in ways that are commensurate with the increase in earning. And then you never feel richer. You never feel better off because your lifestyle has risen as fast as your income. My number one piece of advice here would be to not let your lifestyle rise faster than your income and to make sure that as your income increases, so does the amount you’re setting aside, because lifestyle creep is a really, really big problem. What’s fascinating is, and I’ve been certainly bitten by some of this and haven’t followed my own advice here in certain instances, but the things that seem so extraordinary to you — I think about my house; when we bought this house it was the most beautiful house I had ever seen and soon it’s just where you throw your dirty socks — it just quickly becomes the backdrop against which you live your life. So really watch out for lifestyle creep. Make sure that if your income increases 50%, that your spending only increases 25%. Have a little fun, but make sure that they don’t increase in lockstep because that’s not where happiness is.

28:26 Emily: Yeah. I guess, I think I would add onto that — you put it very well about how the hedonic treadmill operates — I think that for some PhDs, when they get out of training and they finally have that larger salary, there’s some pent up demand. There’s some pent up wanting to spend behavior because they have been on this constrained income for so long. My advice to that person, in addition to what you said, would be to splurge on something that’s a one time expense, like a grand vacation or something, and not upgrade your housing this high degree, not upgrade your transportation to a high degree, not upgrade those fixed or recurring expenses in your life, but rather have this one wonderful, pleasurable experience and then get back to a lifestyle that is, as you were saying, far below what you could actually “afford” with your new salary, just so you aren’t stuck on that treadmill over the long term.

29:15 Daniel: I love that advice and I think it’s also consistent with understanding how you can spend money in ways that make you happy. When you look at the research on how to spend in ways that makes you happy, giving money away makes us happy, spending on experiences makes us happy and spending on getting rid of stuff we hate doing makes us happy. Having someone mow your lawn for example, makes happy. Buying time, buying experiences, and giving for goodwill — these are the things that make us happy. Don’t go buy a fancy car. Don’t go buy a big house that’s going to lock you into this recurring expense trap and it’s not even going to make you feel any better. It’s a trap.

Last Words of Advice and Where to Find Dr. Daniel Crosby Online

30:01 Emily: It’s great insight. Thank you. Do you have any final pieces of advice? We’ve already heard so much, but anything more for that early career PhD in terms of personal finance or behavioral finance advice?

30:11 Daniel: Again, just really to know your worth. I felt like when I broke out of my swim lane and got out of the cattle call that was sort of herding me towards this very prescribed life and once I sort of broke out and got into the world, I found that people had a lot more enthusiasm and respect for my ideas than they might have in a more constrained academic setting. So know your worth, don’t be afraid to ask for what you’re worth and go get ’em.

30:46 Emily: Wonderful. And if listeners want to follow up more with you, want to learn more from you, read your books, listen to you, where should they go?

30:54 Daniel: Yeah, I’d encourage folks to check out my books. The Laws of Wealth* is probably the place to start, The Behavioral Investor* is next. I’m super active on LinkedIn and Twitter, @danielcrosby.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

31:07 Emily: Thank you so much, Daniel, for this interview.

31:10 Daniel: My pleasure.

Outtro

31:11 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Achive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.