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How to Financially Transition to Grad School as an Underprivileged Student

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In this episode, Emily interviews Rutendo Chabikwa, a first-year PhD student from Zimbabwe at the University of Oxford and the host of the podcast So, You Got A Scholarship? The topic is the financial aspects of transitioning to graduate school. Emily and Rutendo list start-up costs, explore the financial “hidden curriculum” of grad school, and discuss financial habits to establish and how to do so. This episode has a particular focus on underprivileged and/or international students.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Rutendo: If there’s something that you think somebody might cover, even if you don’t think somebody might go cover it, just ask. That’s definitely something I think underprivileged students can fall behind on simply because some of us have to cover a lot of gaps, not coming from families with people that have done PhDs or some of us who will be first-generation graduates to even begin with.

Book Giveaway Contest

02:19 Emily: Now, onto the book giveaway contest. In May 2021, I’m giving away one copy of Bad with Money: The Imperfect Art of Getting Your Financial Sh*t Together by Gaby Dunn, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for July 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during May will have a chance to win a copy of this book. I’ve listened to a few episodes of the Bad with Money podcast, and I’m looking forward to reading and discussing this book because Gaby has such a different perspective and approach to personal finance than I do. If you’d like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of May from all the entries. You can find full instructions pfforphds.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Rutendo Chabikwa.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:24 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Rutendo Chabikwa. She is a first-year PhD student at the University of Oxford. She’s from Zimbabwe. So we are going to discuss in this episode the transition into graduate school, some of the financial stuff that goes on in that time, especially for underprivileged students. This is going to be really great episode. Rutendo and I have actually spoken before because I was on her podcast. She has a podcast called, So, You Got a Scholarship? and my episode of season three, episode one. So we’re doing a swap here. I’m so glad, Rutendo, to have you on my podcast. Welcome. Will you please tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself?

03:58 Rutendo: Thank you so much, Emily. Glad to be here. Glad we could do this. My name is Rutendo. Yes, I am a first-year PhD student, or DPhil as it is called, at the University of Oxford. I’m from Zimbabwe. But basically I have been an international student for the past about 10 years, starting with my two years of high school. Did that in Canada. My undergrad was at upstate New York at St. Lawrence University. So I have a bit of U.S. experience in there with also a couple of study abroads. And then my master’s was in London at the LSE and then now I’m here for my PhD. So it’s a bit, quite of a long trajectory over there, and I am studying information communication and the social sciences. So basically things to do with the internet, digital media, and political participation.

Costs for Anyone Starting Grad School

04:42 Emily: Wow. Okay. Yeah. Fascinating. Thank you so much. So we’re going to jump right in with talking about the financial startup costs for entering graduate students. And obviously you’ve done this before at minimum for your master’s and now again for your PhD. So you’re quite familiar. Let’s talk about this in three layers. One would be for just anyone who’s starting graduate school that didn’t require a move. Two, someone who did need to move to get to graduate school. And then three, someone who had to move internationally to start graduate school. So we’ll layer those on. So what are some costs in that first layer of just anyone who’s starting graduate school?

05:16 Rutendo: Yeah, absolutely. So anybody that is starting, I mean, there’s the obvious in terms of just generally your life in grad school, household items. I know that sounds very minimal, but it can be actually something that builds up and that we underestimate as well as, you know, your working equipment, your laptop. Right now, we’re in a pandemic, so everybody’s sort of working from home, but even outside of pandemic, generally grad students need to have really well stationed, you know, workspaces for your work. Books, and not just books that are not just textbooks as well, because you might have costs to do with like your research topics. Sometimes you might prepare having your own book to highlight or write in, things like that. And obviously we can talk about ways of minimizing those costs later, but definitely anybody going there, your stationary, books. Definitely.

06:07 Emily: Yeah. Well, I’ll add, you know, in the U.S., and you can tell me if you’ve experienced this at LSE and Oxford, but a lot of graduate programs in the U.S. seem to require some fees to be paid upfront. Like even before you ever get your first paycheck as a graduate student, you owe hundreds, maybe a thousand dollars of some kind of fee, which is just, I wish they set the system up differently. But it is that way in many places.

06:33 Rutendo: Absolutely. This is actually, I mean, even before actually getting accepted, right? So these fees, even for applications alone, so there’s that, and then getting accepted, the deposit fees. Sometimes you might be lucky enough to get a waiver. Sometimes not so lucky. They could, you’re right, go from a few hundred dollars to a large sum of your tuition as well. And then I think there are also, depending on your institution, fees, such as for student association fees as well. Those are definitely something to consider and look up how your institution works on that.

07:09 Emily: Yeah, those are the kinds of fees that I was referring to, like a recreation fee or an activity fee, or even sometimes the health insurance premium here, you know, it needs to be paid upfront. That can happen. So that could add up to a sum. The thing about that is that you can know in advance, right? So as soon as you figure out which school you’re going to go to in April, or whenever you do that, you can start asking what is the amount of money that I need to give you before I get my first paycheck? Now, I don’t want to say that everywhere is that way, because it’s not. But it’s definitely something worth figuring out as early as you can.

07:44 Rutendo: Absolutely. And also to find out from the different sort of stages, right. There’s fees, your department might have some type of fee or, I mean, if you come into something, I guess like the Oxford system, you might also try to talk to your college, see if they have any kind of fees or which is a different sort of department or different area. So to make sure that you’re checking boxes with different offices and different levels of the institution to make sure that you have that. Always definitely ask for that.

Startup Costs Associated with a Move for Grad School

08:09 Emily: Hmm. Yes. Okay. So let’s add a move on top of that. If you are moving, what kinds of, you know, startup costs are associated with that?

08:17 Rutendo: Oh, absolutely. Transport for sure. However way you’re getting there. Moving costs, shipping costs. In order to save money, you might have to use money. So in order to save money on buying all new items, for example, let’s say for your house, your desk, it might be cheaper to move with them, but that’s also a cost. So there’s, you know, you need to juggle that and, you know, do your tallies and do your trackings and write that out and see what’s cheaper and what’s easier for you and most convenient. So those moving costs are definitely a thing. Some people, I mean, I guess if you’re moving, then you’d have to consider things such as deposits on rent, rental fees. There might be costs as well for even finding a place to stay if your institution doesn’t provide that. Some people might work through agents. If that’s easier and safer for you, obviously different cities, different countries have different rules and regulations.

09:10 Rutendo: But I’d say that’s definitely a big thing to consider. So, and then the different taxes. Council tax in some places. I know in the UK, council tax is sort of like a big thing, which is one of the bills to do with, you know, your household that you need to consider and that you need to kind of look up at if you know, what’s easier and cheaper for you. If you’re a student, generally, depending on what household you’re living in, you can get a waiver for that. The process on that also requires research. I think the biggest expense is definitely if anybody moving, let’s say cities right now, would be things to do with, with living, added on to what we talked about before.

Different Scales of Moves

09:47 Emily: Yeah. I’m actually thinking back because there are different like scales of moves, right? So I’m thinking back to when I started graduate school, which I was living within a long drive, it was like a four-hour drive from where I was living before to my new graduate student city. So I was just able to drive with my stuff in the back of my car, did not bring any furniture. You know, it was pretty like low-key in terms of the actual transit costs. And then also I got into an apartment complex where they were doing, they didn’t require like a massive upfront deposit. It was some kind of like student special, you know, kind of thing. Like, so I feel like my move, which I did with no savings. I had like my last paycheck that was going to get me through two months, you know, to my first graduate student paycheck.

10:29 Emily: I did that without, you know, any real strain. I didn’t really buy furniture. I kind of lived without furniture for awhile, but that was a really, really low-key, low-scale kind of move. And like there can be, and we haven’t even talked about moving countries yet, but you can go way, way up on that scale. If you have an entire, you know, household, if you have stuffed move, if you’re flying and you have to ship your car, like plus as you just said, you know, I’m thinking about like Boston, where many people go through brokers and have to pay some kind of fee. Like, I don’t know if it’s a month’s rent like upfront just for that plus like the deposit, which could be large. Like, moves can vary so much from, I would say maybe a couple hundred dollars up to like thousands of dollars easily without even going, again, international. So like, that was my experience. I somehow like skated by with very little like actual outlay of money. What was your experience in this most recent move?

Rutendo’s Recent Move: 3 Suitcases

11:20 Rutendo: The most recent move? I could only fly with three suitcases. Somehow Emirates had a really great deal. So I could fly with three suitcases. In that, I made sure that I had my coffee pot because that’s always an essential, I had my bedding and my clothing, including my winter clothes. I knew winter clothes would be actually quite a big expense. So made sure that I had that over here. And then I didn’t have to buy furniture, thankfully, because I’m living in a student flat. So my apartment is actually furnished, so that’s great. But the biggest expenses now came into trying to, I guess, kind of make it feel like a home. Pots and pans, that that was not provided. The couple of basics. So it was a bit costly, but honestly, I guess not as costly as my master’s move, which is a whole different situation because I was not in student accommodation, which we could talk about later, the advantages and disadvantages of that.

12:13 Rutendo: So, this move was definitely slightly easier. But I did have quite some costs. And I did want to say there’s another cost that I think people, not even just internationals, might have to consider. If you’re changing things like your different insurances that you have, your health insurances. If you’re switching, you might need to do a bit more. So that’s also a cost that you need to consider, I guess, talk to your family about, or if you’re by yourself, figure that out how are you going to deal with those.

International Moves for Grad School

12:39 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Let’s add that third layer on of now the move is an international move. Anything else you want to add about that particular cost?

12:47 Rutendo: Absolutely. Visa expenses. Sounds like just this one thing that you have to pay for, but then you need to consider the medical expenses within those. You need to consider health insurance within that. Some visas, like for example, the UK visa you have to pay, I think now it’s up to 500 pounds for every year of your visa. And so if you’re getting a five-year visa, it’s quite expensive. So you need to consider that. And then consider obviously things, things like flights you need to consider expenses to do with opening up a new bank account. You can get free bank accounts thankfully, but navigating that system. So, and if you’re going to a new country that you’ve never been to, I would say always make sure that you are able to have money to move around. So transport, to be able to do a couple of things in the first few weeks that you’re there. Add this to everything else that was mentioned before deposits: first month’s rent, household items, textbooks, and all the good stuff.

Challenges for Underprivileged Students Starting Grad School

13:46 Emily: Yeah. Wow. It can be quite a list here. So let’s now focus in particular on underprivileged students. What are the, you know, particular challenges that they’re going to have when they start up grad school?

Challenge #1: Funding

13:57 Rutendo: I’d like to talk about this in four different groups. So the first one is funding. I think this is the biggest thing to even begin with. Sometimes you can have funding for a year. Make sure you understand what your funding structure is as an underprivileged student. You want to know what is included and what is not included. Make sure that when they say it’s just tuition, you’re aware that it’s just tuition and you need to consider how you’re going to live and where that money is going to come from, what opportunities there are for RA ships, TA ships, how much they pay. And so to navigate that, before even I think I would say accepting and finalizing your offer. The different reasons why underprivileged students, you know, can have more difficulty navigating the funding structure, especially if you’re international, there’s that added layer. One of the things is that if you’re from certain countries, for example, I’ll give you the example of myself as a Zimbabwean. I am from a country that was formerly the Commonwealth and is no longer slash officially in the Commonwealth. So there are a lot of funding things that I could qualify for, but I don’t qualify for anymore. And so I needed to understand what I could get and what I couldn’t get. The offer I got, right now it covers tuition. My tuition is covered by the lab that I’m a part of. I’m a part of the computational propaganda lab here. However, there is no stipend. So for me to get a stipend, I need to work my maximum number of hours as an RA. And so that’s something I had to think about. Do I want to not have 20 hours a week to do my research, but to be an RA?

15:21 Rutendo: And so you need to be able to think about the time factor and how that is affecting or adding onto your work. Fortunately, my RA actually allows me to do the work in my research field. So it’s not like I’m spending 20 hours a week doing something that has nothing to do with my research, just so I can pay bills. However, I do need to do this so that I can pay bills. And so there’s that aspect as well of funding. And then one of the things I am consistently aware of is that my funding is pretty much dependent on grants that the lab has. And so that might be perceived as somewhat of a risk. However, it’s a bit of a new situation, not a new situation. It’s something that the lab has done for years. And so this is just how a lot of students in my lab are funded. But just me understanding that it’s not coming from a specific fund, is very useful for me to know what I can do and what I can’t do. So to ask those questions for funding.

16:14 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think this is, how funding works. It actually varies quite a lot by where you are the field that you’re in the type of university that you’re at. And so like, I am just thinking, Oh wow, I should really create a resource that’s like all just how funding grad school works. And I’m thinking to myself, do I know the full picture? Because I know things very well for certain fields that I’m close to, but like to know the full picture I think is very difficult. So for anyone, really, you do need to understand how funding works in your field, in that school, in that specific situation, where it’s coming from, what you have to do to get it, like you were just saying, how reliable it is, who it’s depending on? You know, if there’s a downturn in enrollment, are TA positions going to go away?

17:01 Emily: If your lab doesn’t get that next grant is like, that, you know, sector of your funding going to go away? Are there any guarantees? You know, guarantees at least in the U.S., they vary quite a lot. Some people get them. Some people don’t. Depends on the field. Depends on the school. Not getting one is not necessarily a bad sign. Although certainly getting one is a great sign. So there’s just a lot of layers to this. And yeah, I think the less versed you are in it, the more, yeah, you’re kind of flying by the seat of your pants, and it’s worth investigating for sure. Probably at an earlier stage than we’re talking about right now, we’re talking to basically rising or matriculating graduate students. And this is something you should ideally try to figure out kind of before you even apply so that you can, you know, know that you’re applying to the right places that have the right funding structure for you.

Challenge #2: Research

17:45 Rutendo: Then the next piece for me is research. Your actual research, but also I do need to say maybe this is in my field as a social scientist. I do not know how things work for sciences or humanities. But generally funding in terms of money and personal finances, there are things that your department, you know, some people can self-fund for a lot of things. So for example, some software that we use, some people in my department will say, Oh yeah, the software is fairly cheap. And I just subscribe this much a year. For me, that takes quite a bit out of my budget, you know? And it is part of research. It is actually part of a research cost. So things like that. However, I guess the best way to go about it is to talk to your department about it and understand what you need for your research.

18:27 Rutendo: If anything, if you think anything at all is tied to your research, talk to your department about it because they should be able to support you through that. But definitely I think as an underprivileged student, if I hadn’t spoken to other people who have navigated the system before, I would be worried about buying such software, for example, or I would be worried about managing the cap on the research fund that I have to be able to do field work and get those needs met as well. And so I think that’s definitely something that, you know, you kind of learn as you navigate the system. Yeah.

19:02 Emily: Yeah. Absolutely totally agree. Ideally, get someone else to pay for everything. And if not, at least you ask and then, you know, well, this is not something that we cover. And then you get to decide, you have to decide if it’s something that you’re willing to do out of your personal funds. But just apply, apply, apply, I would say, for funding. You know, extra grants. A lot of times travel in U.S. institutions sometimes comes down to the student to fund. Like, you know, summer trips to here or there to do their research. Basically, you’re going to get a grant for it, or you’re not going to go. I don’t think that too many people fund those things by themselves, but the smaller costs, like you were saying, like software or some kinds of equipment. Yeah. You should definitely be asking, at least, that your department will do it.

Challenge #3: Professional Development

19:44 Rutendo: For sure. The third one is professional development, and these are things that are not necessarily tied to your work or your research, but you need to do to begin to build up your CV or your presence in the field. And so some of the things might include, some courses offered through either online courses offered through either organizations or sometimes schools do actually offer these, but you still have to pay for them. So I know my library offers different professional development courses and, you know, each of them cost like about 15 pounds, a course. And so imagine taking about, you know, four or five of those a year. For some people, that could add up quite a bit. There could be things like attending conferences as well, that are not necessarily hosted by your school. It could be things like attending events.

20:37 Rutendo: I mean, I know I’m saying attending now, they’re all on online. Some thankfully are free, some still aren’t, which is still a cost for a lot of people. And so even though these things aren’t necessarily tied to your research, these are expenses that some students have actually footed themselves, but I don’t think it’s necessary for you to always do that. And this is, once again, when we talk about applying for assistance. But when it comes to applying, I do want to point out that the information isn’t always out there explicitly to say, Hey, there’s money. You can apply for this. So if there is something that you think somebody might cover, even if you don’t think somebody might cover it, just ask. The chances are that somebody will know where the answer is. Even if it’s not, you know, on the website that says, Hey, we offer professional development funds. But that’s definitely something I think underprivileged students can fall behind on simply because some of us have to cover a lot of gaps, not coming from families with people that have done PhDs, or some of us will be first-generation graduates to even begin with. And so we might have a lot more things and a lot more sessions or professional development work that we need to do but not enough money to actually pay for those things. And so there are a couple of costs entailed in that.

21:52 Emily: Yeah. And when you say ask, I just wanted to point out, who? Who should the people ask?

21:59 Rutendo: A supervisor, I would say start with your supervisor as the first port of call is your supervisor. Your department might have somebody that’s in charge of your program as well. I don’t know how different institutions work, but generally there’s someone that’s not necessarily your supervisor, but oversees your actual program. Those are the people to talk to you. And then if it’s things that are very just professional development focused, career services. I know a lot of schools have career services departments.

22:24 Rutendo: Those places are actually really great, whether you’re an undergrad or a PhD student. They know a lot about what’s going on. And so definitely those three, start off with those three. One of them will be able to assist.

22:36 Emily: Yeah, I would also add older students, students ahead of you. If they’ve done a conference that you want to go to, just ask them if they had it funded from somewhere. If they say, no, that’s not necessarily the final word, but if they say yes, then you’ve gotten a really good lead. And I would say also, you know, the person in charge of the program at my school that was called the Director of Graduate Studies, DGS. That person has an assistant. That is the person who knows everything going on everywhere. So that is the person to befriend to get on your side to advocate for you. That person is going to be an amazing resource just generally, but specifically with respect to funding and knowing how everything works behind the scenes.

23:17 Rutendo: That is definitely true. There is always that one person in administration who’s a great person to know. And I agree with that. Finding those people is very useful.

Commercial

23:28 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold your income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2020 tax return, which are available at pfforphds.com/tax. I hope you’ll check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which you can find links to from P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. It would be my pleasure to help you save time and potentially money this tax season. So don’t hesitate to reach out. Now, back to our interview.

Challenge #4: Emergencies

24:34 Emily: Okay. And we had a fourth one, right?

24:38 Rutendo: Now, the last one has nothing to do with all of these other things, but it’s emergencies. These happen. And sometimes, especially as a student, as an underprivileged student, if you’re moving somewhere new, you might have used most of your money for moving in and getting settled, but emergencies do happen. And this actually recently happened to me whereby I needed to go to an emergency room. Thankfully, it was not COVID-related. So just have to say that in a pandemic, just to make sure. However, you know, I ended up being able to talk to my welfare team here at the college and they covered a lot of the costs for a lot of things that I didn’t even know they could be covered for that are emergencies simply because I wasn’t ready then when that happened.

25:25 Rutendo: And so I think it’s really important that we understand that whatever emergencies we face to be able to be open about them, to the best of our abilities and you know, and obviously balance keeping your privacy and your private information private, but also letting letting the right people know to give you assistance. Because while some people might be able to just write their families and, you know, call up home and say, Hey, look, I need an extra, this amount of money. Some people might not be able to. And so to know that most universities will be, there will be some funds somewhere. I know my university has something called hardship funds for things like that. And different levels of it that you can apply for, but definitely the understand that emergencies for underprivileged students can be something difficult to navigate and challenging as well.

26:13 Emily: Absolutely. Absolutely. Could not agree more. I think in the U.S. it’s becoming more common, but I wouldn’t say it’s totally common, that universities or graduate schools have either emergency grants or emergency loans available. It’s not everywhere, but it’s definitely, definitely worth inquiring about because it’s, yeah, it’s becoming more and more popular to set up those kinds of things. As we understand, not everyone has the means to cover an emergency in cash or has access to debt even to finance an emergency or has family to fall back on or whatever the case may be. Yeah, not everywhere, but definitely worth asking about.

People are Your Best Resource: Talk to Them 

26:53 Emily: Okay. Yeah. Anything else you wanted to add about sort of helping, you know, underprivileged graduate students prepare for starting graduate school or, you know, make it to the end? Because finances are a big reasons that people leave PhD programs.

27:08 Rutendo: I mean, I would say that, you know, the most important thing in terms of getting a hold of your finances is also just, you gave the advice of talking to older students in one of the specific categories for professional development. But in general, talking to as many students as you can, once you accept it, try to connect. If there are any people that you see online, if you’re on Twitter, for example, you know, when somebody says I’m doing this program, try to connect with them. I set up a couple of Zoom calls with third years and second years and even people that had just finished their PhDs in my department, just to talk to them, just to hear about their experiences and, you know, students, you know, not just underprivileged students, but everyone just to know about the experiences outside and inside to know what I need to prepare.

27:51 Rutendo: And so I think that’s part of your research and getting so that you really understand your finances. Especially if you’re going to be doing some form of RAing or TAing, it’s important to talk to somebody that has done it so that you understand such as the salary structures as well. Because, you know, sometimes they tell you, this is how much you get paid pro rata, but you don’t even understand what pro rata is, for example. And so it would be useful to talk to people. So I’d say, that your best resource is people that have been through the very same system as well. And just understand the general lifestyle that helps you understand the costs, you know. So just asking them what they do in general, how much things cost, ask people where they go shopping, what things they had to buy, things like that would be very useful as you are preparing to go, and helps you definitely understand your finances, even before you start.

Establishing Good Financial Habits in Grad School

28:40 Emily: So the last thing we wanted to talk about was establishing good financial habits at the start of graduate school. Both what those habits might be, and how to actually go about establishing them, which is really the key. So let’s talk about what habits are great to establish at the beginning of graduate school, and for each one, how people can do that.

Habit #1: Track Your Expenses

28:57 Rutendo: Okay. I think the first habit is to track your expenses.

29:02 Emily: I always say that number one as well.

29:03 Rutendo: Which is, I must actually say, something I got from your podcast. So I listened to this podcast before doing my PhD and honestly like it’s, I went on a binge and it has been very useful for me. And I learned to track, just track. So what I did was I had the first month of not knowing, you know, what is needed or no projections, not knowing how much I might be able to save, just to track everything I bought. It sounds tedious, but you do need to track. And so the how, I think there are different ways of doing this. The way I did it was I used Notion. So I made a table and this sort of like budget looking thing in Notion, even though it wasn’t a budget, it was what I was spending.

29:50 Rutendo: And I had categories for each thing. So groceries and toiletries. So I knew that week one, this is what I spent. Week two, this is what I spent. So that helped me also see an average about on average per week, what am I spending on this? And then I kept my subscriptions. So knowing what subscriptions, you know, I have, and then during that month also making sure am I actually using them, like I have Spotify premium. Do I actually use it? How important is this feature for me? And then there were miscellaneous as well. Things that I, you know, that I’m spending on this month that I won’t necessarily be spending on next month, but just to understand that how much cushion and move room do I have in my budget for that? So I wasn’t going to be buying pots and pans every month, for example. But I kept that in there. That helped me understand an average. Because there will be some things that I will need to pick up throughout the month that are not in necessary, you know?

30:40 Rutendo: So having all of that. The other way you could do your tracking is to use the budget apps, you know, the ones that you connect your bank accounts to an app. I think in the U.S. it might be mint that most people use. In the UK, I use money dashboard. Personally, I find that to be really good. It has, you know, web interface and app interface, and it’s fairly automatic. And so habit number one is track. Just, you know, just to understand exactly what you’re spending. Don’t try to, and don’t lie about anything. If you spend, if you spend money, I spend money on sparkling water because I love sparkling water and I don’t have a soda stream. I wrote that down just so that I actually understand how much money I’m spending on sparkling water. Things like that.

31:32 Emily: Yeah. Completely could not agree more. And I would say when you’re choosing like this manual method, which as you said, can be tedious. I think there’s a lot of power there in the tedium and staying close to the expenses. But if you know yourself and you know that you’re not going to do it, you know, you’re not going to do this daily or multi times per day or whatever it is, and you decide to use mint or you need a budget or something similar, that’s okay. Know yourself, know what’s sustainable for you. And just choose something that, as you said, can become a habit and it is, you know, less maintenance to use one of these automated systems, yeah. But whatever can become easiest for you to sustain. I know for example, I kind of fall on this manual tracking side of things. My husband will not do that. So for us keeping a joint budget together, it has to be software, or it’s not going to get done. But it is a habit. And when we use software, we do check it. So whatever you think is sustainable for you in the longterm.

Habit #2: Understand Your Expenses

32:22 Rutendo: Right. Absolutely. And then the second habit would be connected to the tracking. So after the tracking comes the budgeting. And that’s something that I have found to be very useful. So I then moved, after understanding my expenses, I then, you know, created like a, okay, so per month here’s how much I want. Here’s, you know, on average how much I think I need for groceries, how much I need, I think, for this and this and that. And then I then moved it into the automated system. The automated system for me was easier simply because there were things that I could grab, let’s say, and sometimes forget to enter. I was afraid I’d forget to enter manually because I was no longer in the tracking phase. I was now in, you know, I’m technically still the tracking phase, but you know what I mean?

33:04 Rutendo: Like in the actual making sure I understand how much I spent of what phase. And so I moved that understanding to money dashboard and had all the different categories. And, you know, it’s been very useful, but like you said, even if you do automate something, it’s a habit. So I do check my money dashboard just to make sure that an expense has gone into the correct category or into the category I want it to go into by the categories I’ve set in my budget. So, and also just to see how far I have, how much do I have left this month for this specific thing?

33:35 Emily: One thing that I think is really valuable about tracking, and also budgeting to an extent, is even if you don’t really think you need to do it right now, you may, six months from now, want to look back at that data and, you know, get some insights from it because of a decision or something you have to make at that point. So, it’s just a good thing to make a habit, you know, make as low maintenance as you possibly can, just so you may want to use that data in the future you’ll have it.

34:03 Rutendo: Absolutely. Yeah, one thing I do understand that because of, I do regret not having had a budget during my master’s degree because it was in the same country, so I really have no excuse. So, I couldn’t actually say how much I spent on groceries on average. You know, now I can say that and now I can. And so I do agree. It is nice to just have that data at some point. You never know what you might do next in a couple of months or a couple of years even.

Habit #3: Save

34:30 Emily: Yeah. What’s the next habit on your list?

34:33 Rutendo: The next habit on my list is to save. This one is a bit, I think people, people go about it different ways. I know that the advice generally is pay yourself first, which I understand is great advice. As somebody who’s not that wealthy, not even, let me not even put a “that.” Who is not wealthy, who is mostly just doing enough to get by, paying myself first is actually quite, quite difficult, even on my budget categories. What I always do know is that I always have some little leftover. So I do this thing that I actually learned again from another guest on this podcast, which is at the end of the month, whatever I have leftover in my checking account, I put into my saving and I start from zero with my new paycheck. That is my saving. And then there’s also the other way that I save, technically kind of like save/invest, is through this app called Moneybox.

35:31 Rutendo: I think the U.S. equivalent might be Acorn. I don’t know if that’s what they do, they round up your expenses and sort of, kind of like quote unquote invest it for you. It’s not like you’re investing in big, very risky, you know, things. You’re not making like $5,000 worth of investments, but it is quite nice to just see that number go up. You know, if I buy something and then there’s 20 pence left, knowing that that 20 pence is going to do something. Because also, at the end of the day, in my head, in my budget, anyway, that was a round figure, right? That was not necessarily 0.8. you know. And so, that sort of save and invest model, I find it to be very useful, to always try and save. And it’s useful to save, even if you’re saving very little, because once again, emergencies do happen.

36:19 Rutendo: And then it also is useful to try and strive towards getting to that three to six months worth of expenses, which is something you don’t always start with. Especially if you’re somebody that’s not coming from a wealthy background. You don’t always start out with being able to have three to six months worth of expenses in your savings account. But that little bit counts. Just that little bit counts, and hoping that emergencies don’t happen. Knock on wood. You will get there through I guess some of the other things we’ll talk about.

36:44 Emily: What I really like about that articulation. Now, of course I am an advocate of pay yourself first. I definitely am. But what I like about how you’ve set things up is that saving is not, even though it’s the last thing you do with your money each month, it’s not the last thing on your mind. You know throughout the month that you have that intention of doing it at the end. And so I’m sure it affects your behavior. Oh, well, I want to be able to save a little bit more this month. So I’m going to really try to come in under budget on this category, because I know that’s going to enable me to save this much more. And so what I like about that is that it’s still an intentional thing that you have throughout the entire month, even though you do the action at the end.

37:20 Emily: And I think that, you know, sometimes that’s just how you need to start. And when you’re living essentially paycheck to paycheck, you know, there’s a possibility you might spend your entire paycheck that month, if something odd came up and you can’t, you really can’t, you know, set anything aside in advance. It’s okay to do that system. As long as it’s working for you most of the time, most of the time that you’re able to save something at the end of the month and increase that savings as you were just talking about. I think, you know, it’s, it’s a way it’s a way to start. It’s a way to start saving,

37:47 Rutendo: Right. Also, just to actually say that that’s what I’m doing now, because I’m just starting out. So my intention right now is, because technically I’m still settling in. So there are still odd expenses that are coming up here and there since I’ve been here for a couple of months, but I don’t think that’s what I’ll be doing, let’s say, next year, this time. By then I will have, you know, very few things that come up and I will now know exactly what I can save, even if I’m still living paycheck to paycheck, which then just becomes something I do first. And so this is definitely something transitionary, but yeah.

38:18 Emily: I think it’s also easier as you learn a new city to become more frugal with time. You know, you mentioned earlier, well, where do you shop? That’s a very key question. Maybe when you first move to a city, you don’t know the least expensive places to shop, or the places that have the sales at this particular day of the week. You don’t have that insight. And so, you know what you’re spending on groceries, for example, in month one, you might be able to spend much less by month 13 because you figured out a few of those tricks. And so don’t think that just because you’re starting out completely paycheck to paycheck, that you’re going to be that way forever, because you will learn over time if you’re, you know, if you’re minded in that way.

38:53 Rutendo: Absolutely.

Habit #4: Learn How to Be Frugal

38:54 Emily: Okay. So do you have another habit on your list?

38:56 Rutendo: Yes. Which you actually kind of got to, which is understanding the best way you can be frugal. I put it in a different category than saving because the saving is something very technical, but the other habit you can do is try to find out how best you can reduce costs. It doesn’t matter how little it sounds. You know, for example, Spotify premium, normal is 9.99 pounds, student is 4.99. You might think, okay, that’s not much, but it is, it sort of adds up. So if you know what, just that extra amount of time it takes for you to sign up to student, if you need that. If you use that. Or knowing exactly where to shop, right? And if you go to the store and we’re like, here, we have reduced shelves where you can get fruits and vegetables that are technically about to go bad, kind of like the shelf date really, saves a bit more, you know, I could buy an avocado for 40 P or I could buy it for two pounds 70.

39:47 Rutendo: So then I get two avocados, instead. You know, something like that, just, just being as frugal as you can. If there are books that you want to buy, trying to get them second hand, instead of getting them new. You know, or if it’s something that you actually don’t need to be writing in and that you just want to browse, consider getting it from your library instead. If you’re fortunate enough to be living in, you know, even in a pandemic, some libraries are doing, you know, click and collects or things like that. So try to do that. So just finding ways to be frugal, no matter how small the amount seems, definitely adds up. And the other technique, and this is cash backs as well. I know that some banks do different cashback things with, you know, different retailers or you could actually sign up for like I think in the UK there’s TopCashback or something I think is also a U.S. thing online.

40:44 Emily: I use Rakuten.

40:46 Rutendo: They do have that. Yes. Yes. So things like that definitely, you know, for things that you’re going to buy anyway, might as well get a percentage of it back it’s really useful. And these things I know they seem very minimal when you think about you’re like, Oh, it’s 5%. It adds up. It adds up, and that 5% could be something that goes into your savings, for example. Fine. If you don’t want to spend it on something new, that’s how you end up getting to your three to six months worth of, you know, expenses of savings. So.

41:16 Emily: I was just going to say, tie any little frugal, you know, tactic that you implement to directly increasing your savings rate. If that’s your top goal at the moment, right? So if you, as you were just saying with Spotify, for example, you know, you reduce it by $5, whatever it is, Hey, why don’t you pay yourself first $5? Because you were spending that anyway. So that’s the way you can kind of transition between these two systems, or save at the end of the month. Hey, my grocery budget was this, but I came in, you know, $10 lower because I’ve learned all these frugal things to do. Okay. Your $10 at the end of the month gets to go into your savings. Yes. I love that idea. Yeah. Did you have another habit?

A Note on Side Hustling

41:52 Rutendo: Well, technically it’s not a habit, I guess, because a habit would have to be things that you do consistently, but then to try and be on, this is the last thing under this question, to try and do like side hustle type of things. I don’t know if I could classify that as a habit or a thing. But also, I mean, obviously you have to consider how much time it takes away from your work, because, you know, first and foremost, you are a student. But if possible, you know, there are different ways. Some people do short-term consulting things. I know for me, the thing that has helped me right now is a short-term consulting gig which I know, you know, at the end of that will help me build up my savings so much faster than, you know, saving the little bits off of my paycheck and things like that.

42:34 Rutendo: And so to find out where your skills lie, if somebody wants help with like a couple of editing, copyrights, things like that, that you could take away just a couple of hours of your time to do. Not necessarily to make that become the focus, but only if possible. And this is something that sometimes is also really a sign of privilege as well, actually, rather than something I’d advise underprivileged students to do, because sometimes you have more things to deal with, honestly, than side hustling. So this is why I’m not saying this is necessarily a habit, but if you feel that you do have that privilege of time and space and mental capacity to do that, then do so. But don’t necessarily, please, if there’s something you can’t do feel obligated to.

43:16 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you’re primarily in your degree program to get that degree. So I always say about side hustling, like, don’t do anything that’s going to jeopardize your progress toward that end goal. But if you have the capacity, it can be a really great supplement. And like you were saying, I think that sometimes graduate students you know, they end up devaluing what they’re capable of doing because they’re being paid such a low, you know, rate through their stipend or whatever. If you can do consulting, as you were just saying, or employ your skills in another non-academic capacity, especially, you might be able to command a fairly high pay rate, at least compared to what you’re getting through your primary work as a graduate student. And so don’t think that a side hustle is going to be 20 hours a week or 10 hours a week.

44:03 Emily: It could be, as you said, two hours a week and still make a really big impact on your budget. If you select it very carefully, really employing what makes you unique in the marketplace. Now I will say, because we’ve been talking a lot about international students in this interview, in the U.S., international students are extraordinarily limited in what they’re permitted to do in terms of making money outside of their primary position. That is, they really can’t do anything unless it’s been approved through like CPT, like OPT kind of situation. So I’m not encouraging international students to side hustle to work for money, but there might be ways that you can set up passive income sources that it’s not actually exchanging work for money, but other ways you might be able to make money. You mentioned cash back earlier. Credit card rewards are a thing.

44:51 Emily: They can be fairly lucrative. I’ve had a couple episodes in the past on that. So I’ll link them from the show notes. International students would not be able to do that day one arriving in the U.S. because you have to work on your credit score first. But after a year or two, that might be a possibility as like a passive income source. So you are going to have to be a little bit more creative in your thinking about side generating side income as an international student, but it is still possible. Maybe it’s worth looking into again, if you have the time and the energy to do so.

45:19 Rutendo: Precisely. Yes.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

45:22 Emily: Okay. Rutendo, thank you so much for this wonderful interview. I think we’ve gotten so many insights out of it. I will ask you for one last one, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that can be something that we’ve already touched on in the interview, or it can be something completely new.

45:39 Rutendo: I would say, we’ve already talked about this. If there’s a chance that you don’t have to pay for it, don’t. It doesn’t matter what it is. Just ask if there’s a chance that you don’t. Because it doesn’t matter how many times you track something, how many times you budget something, if you can get it from somewhere else, all these other habits, all these other things will be better as a result of you not necessarily having to go out of your way to do this. So that’s the biggest thing for me.

46:04 Emily: Absolutely. I think, you know, maybe a more broad category of term for this is just negotiation. Like you can kind of think about it that way, because you’re just sort of ferreting out, you’re feeling out, is there a possibility that someone else can foot this bill for me? Is there another creative way that I can get this paid for by someone else? I know in the U.S. we don’t have a strong culture of negotiation at all in terms of like sales or anything, but I know that other countries, it’s more of a common thing that you learn in your childhood. And so if that’s your, you know, personality, maybe you can think of it that way as just feeling out what are the possibilities here, financially? What are the parameters of this space? Yeah. And oftentimes that’ll be to your advantage. I mean, you’re not going to get anywhere by not asking. That’s for sure.

46:46 Rutendo: Definitely. And I mean, I do just want to say that, especially for underprivileged students, the one thing I do want to say about the reason I’m giving this advice and I put it, so plainly is because a lot of us it’s about our mindset. A lot of us were, you know, I mean, let me not say a lot of us, but then for me, the problem I had to get over was knowing that I had to work for certain things and then sort of feeling that I am not allowed to have certain things, just the social conditioning, right? That I’ve already come this far as like a Black African woman. Now I have to ask again, if they could pay for this conference. Now I have to ask again, but really just, there are people, you know, once I started talking to people that have been doing this for four years and some people for generations because the families had already navigated the system. This is actually what the system is the afford to support you, to become the best that you can be as a researcher, as a student, as whatever it is that you’re doing.

47:40 Rutendo: And so it’s not necessarily, I hope that a lot of people realize it’s not in sense of entitlement, but really just to understand that there are systems of support that might not be explicitly said, you know or stated that they are there, but they really are there for you. And to help you with your finances. And like you said, Emily, at the beginning of the interview, a lot of people are beginning to understand now that finances really impact underprivileged students’ experiences in these institutions. And they are open to that and open to discussion and negotiation. So.

48:12 Emily: That was so well put. Thank you so much for this interview, Rutendo. It was a pleasure to speak with you again.

48:16 Rutendo: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Outro

48:23 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me to share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Insights from a Financial Planner Who Works with Academics

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In this episode, Emily interviews Andy Baxley, a Certified Financial Planner who specializes in working with academics and PhDs. Andy pursued graduate school in psychology immediately after undergrad, but quickly realized the career path wasn’t right for him and the financial pressures were too great. He eventually started practicing financial planning, realizing that it is psychology ‘out in the wild’, and decided to serve the academic community he so closely identified with. Andy shares his insights from working with PhD clients nearing retirement about what they are glad they did when they were younger and what they wish they did. At the end of the interview, Andy explains how his career plans have brought him back to graduate school again. Andy brings deep insights to the interview from his years of study and practice in this space—ones you won’t want to miss!

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Teaser

00:00 Andy: It was sort of that long-term existential financial dread mixed in with just the day to day, “I don’t have enough money for anything.” I was living in a big, fairly expensive city and just was very, very much living like the proverbial graduate student. I didn’t mind that, but it was that in tandem with feeling like everyone else was just taking like leaps and bounds beyond where I was in their financial journeys, that confluence of things added a lot of anxiety.

Introduction

00:34 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode 17 and today my guest is Andy Baxley, a certified financial planner who specializes in working with academics and PhDs. Andy pursued graduate school in psychology immediately after undergrad, but quickly realized the career path wasn’t right for him, and the financial pressures were too great. He eventually started practicing financial planning, realizing that it is psychology out in the wild and decided to serve the academic community he so closely identified with. Andy shares his insights from working with PhD clients nearing retirement, about what they are glad they did when they were young and what they wish they had done. At the end of the interview and explains how his career plans have brought him back to graduate school. Again, don’t miss Andy’s deep insights from his years of study and practice in this space.

01:36 Emily: I have my own insights that I will provide to you next week, specifically regarding the home buying process. My husband and I closed on our very first home a week ago. My podcast episode next week is going to be all about our journey to home-ownership. Like many other PhDs and millennials generally, we put off buying our first home for quite a while. I’ve been open on the podcast about my regret that we did not buy our first home back when we were in grad school and I’m pretty bullish on grad students and PhDs buying homes if it’s financially feasible.

02:10 Emily: To that end, I’m publishing the episode next week on our personal home-ownership journey, which I hope you’ll listen to. I’ve also scheduled a special event with my brother, Sam Hogan, who is a mortgage originator specializing in grad students and PhDs. You’ve heard Sam on the podcast previously in season eight, episode four; season five, episode 17; and season two, episode five. We are going to do an AMA style live call over zoom on Thursday, May 6th, 2021 at 5:00 PM PDT 8:00 PM EDT. We will do our best to answer any question you have about buying a home, especially as a grad student or PhD. You can register for the event and my mailing list at pfforphds.com/mortgage. I hope you will join us.

Book Giveaway

02:56 Emily: Now it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In April, 2021, I’m giving away one copy of Walden on Wheels by Ken Ilgunas, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for June, 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during April will have a chance to win a copy of this book. Walden on Wheels made a splash when it was published, because the author wrote about how while he was a graduate student at Duke, he lived in a van on campus instead of renting a home so that he could avoid taking out student loans. This was an even more counter-cultural move than it appears to be now because it was before the rise of hashtag van life. I’m looking forward to learning more about the author’s motivation to make such an extreme choice and discussing it with the members of the Personal Finance for PhDs community. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review and email it to [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of April from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Andy Baxley.

First Go at Grad School

05:12 Emily: Yeah. And we’re going to get ton of that insight later on. I’m so excited for it. But first we want to go back in your own history back to when you were pursuing your own PhD the first time, so could you please tell us about the graduate program that you entered and what you were studying?

05:30 Andy: Yeah, absolutely. It’s funny, when I look back on my own personal history, I would have been really surprised 10 years ago, if I could have gotten in a time machine and seen where I am today, I don’t think I ever would have guessed that I ended up exactly where I am, but I also wouldn’t have guessed that I’d be as professionally fulfilled as I am either. It turned out well, but definitely a number of unexpected turns along the way. To go way back, I think the best place to start this story is probably in high school. I was a really sort of uninspired student in high schoo,l to say the least, and my parents always said, you have to get a 3.0 at minimum, so I always got like exactly a 3.0, I just didn’t really have much direction or passion.

06:15 Andy: All that kind of changed when I got about halfway through college and I just got very inspired by a couple of professors and started doing research assistantships and teaching assistantships in my undergraduate work and ultimately decided to pursue becoming a professor myself in psychology. The second half of my academic career, I think I was an excellent student and that was the first time I’d ever been excellent at anything. I really was just very excited to be good at something. I started thinking about life after undergraduate work and ultimately went to a master’s program, that was well-known for being a feeder into really good PhD programs, and so I thought that was the path. It didn’t end up working out that way, and I can tell you more about that story certainly.

What Drove the Decision to Leave Grad School

07:07 Emily: Yes, please do. I mean, I think we all know the beginning of this path, but where your story gets interesting is when you start to deviate from it. So why did you end up leaving that master’s program?

07:17 Andy: It was a mix of things, it was definitely a confluence of things. First and foremost, I think I got there and I realized that while I was fully funded in the program and I had a stipend, I sort of looked around and I realized that I didn’t have the same sense of purpose or direction that a lot of the other students in the program did. At first it didn’t seem like that big of a deal, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that the further on I got in that journey, the competition was only going to get fiercer and fiercer. I sort of had this mindset that as long as I can do the next thing, that’s where I’ll find happiness. If I can just get into this master’s program, then my path is paved and I’ll find happiness and all will be well.

08:05 Andy: Then I was like, well, that’s obviously not true and I was thinking, okay, well maybe if I get into a great PhD program, once I do that, all will be well and my life will be pretty much set at that point. And I kept talking to people who were either one step or two steps or three steps along in the journey and realizing that some of them are happy, but a lot of them were under a tremendous amount of pressure financially. They just had a lot of stress in their lives that I wouldn’t have expected, and that wasn’t just true. One or two steps beyond. The more people I talked to, I realized that even all the way up to tenured faculty, those folks were under a lot of pressure as well. Some folks were extremely happy with their lives, but not all of them were and I just realized that I wasn’t on a path to sure happiness or professional fulfillment.

08:52 Andy: Also, I was going up against people who were really super passionate about the research topics that they were focused on and I just didn’t have that. All I had was that I was really excited to be good at something and excited to be a good student, but I just didn’t have that passion and didn’t have that drive. Those were sort of the personal reasons. And then there were certain financial ones as well, which I’m certainly happy to go into.

09:15 Emily: Let’s do that in a moment. I am really impressed with you as a, whatever you were 22, 23 year old person, really being able to kind of take a step back from the day-to-day rush and rigor of the program and evaluate “is this really where I want to go” and to do that, looking ahead to your older people ahead of you in the program and older mentors and so forth and asking yourself if you really want that out of your life. And to do that so early on, right within the first, it sounds like about a year of that program doing that evaluation. I really encourage the listeners to periodically step back and reevaluate and see if the path that you’re on is really the one you went to beyond because bailing out like you did earlier is much, much less sunk cost, than getting to the end of the PhD and realizing that you don’t want the career that’s on the other side of that PhD, the one that you thought you wanted. I really commend you for that. Can you talk a little bit more please about the financial pressures that you were experiencing and observing?

10:13 Andy: Absolutely. And one thing I’ll add to what you just said as well, is that that was the hardest decision I’ve ever made to leave that program. It felt like it felt like my world was crumbling down. So much of my identity was wrapped up in that path that I had chosen for myself. At the time it was truly like crushing at a personal level to make that decision, but looking back, it truly is the best decision that I’ve ever made. That’s not to say of course, that everyone should leave their PhD programs or that everyone should leave graduate school, but it is to say that if you have that hunch, that maybe that’s something worth considering. It may feel like the end of the world in that moment, but it will get better later on as you find your path, it just doesn’t seem like it in the moment.

10:57 Andy: To circle back around to the financial side of things, I think I had this experience that a lot of folks probably do, which is that I was seeing a lot of my peers from college who hadn’t chosen the same path, start to experience some degree of financial success. I always had assumed like, “Oh, financial success isn’t for me like that that’s for other people, that’s, that’s not really a thing for me”. But then I had this weird experience where I started to see other people get jobs and decently paying jobs and I felt a little bit of jealousy there. Also I just felt, my stipend was generous, but it wasn’t quite enough to live on, so I was accumulating more student loan debt on top of what I already had for my undergraduate work.

11:42 Andy: I was by no means into personal finance yet at that point, but I was just doing some very simple math and thinking about when am I actually going to make enough money to start to dig out of this hole? I started playing around with compound interest calculators and realizing how delayed I was going to be, not only in paying off my debt, but also in starting to accumulate assets long-term. It was that long-term existential financial dread mixed in with just the day-to-day “I don’t have enough money for anything”. I was living in a big, fairly expensive city and just was very much living like the proverbial graduate student. I didn’t mind that, but it was that in tandem with feeling like everyone else was just taking like leaps and bounds beyond where I was in their financial journeys, that confluence of things added a lot of anxiety, I think.

12:32 Emily: Yeah. I think what you’re expressing is, again, common enough if people take the moment to think about it. And certainly when you’re actively taking out student loan debt it’s really in your face that this it’s not a long-term sustainable thing to be doing. I think it’s a little harder when you have the stipend and it’s enough to live on, but you don’t quite realize, like when you were playing around the compound interest calculators, you don’t quite realize the long-term effects of not being able to save, not being able to invest, so you can make it day to day, but it’s easier to not think about the long-term. You had the pressure of both the day-to-day and the long-term bearing down on you. I really appreciate those observations.

Life after Leaving Grad School

13:12 Emily: Can you tell us what you did next — after you left your program, after you world crumbled around you? And on that path, how you fell in love with personal finance?

13:22 Andy: Yeah, absolutely. After the program, I spent a couple of months just sort of wallowing in uncertainty and not knowing what I would do. Ultimately what I landed on — I love to travel, so I moved to South Korea and taught English as a second language. I intended to do that for one year, just to sort of get my financial house in order and also have a really neat, unique experience. I actually ended up staying for four just because I really loved it. And I knew that I didn’t want to be — I was teaching anywhere from kindergarten to middle school, depending on which year I was there. I knew I didn’t want to do that forever and I also knew I didn’t want to be a teacher forever necessarily, but I just found the experience kept getting more and more interesting and so it kept me there longer than I thought.

14:07 Andy: Somewhere about halfway through that journey, I picked up a book called Millionaire Teacher by a guy named Andrew Hallam. And first of all, the term “millionaire teacher” seemed like an oxymoron to me, which I think is kind of the point of the title. And again, like I said earlier, building wealth, and certainly becoming a millionaire, never felt like something that was for me. It just always felt like that’s that’s for rich people and I just don’t know anything about that. I sort of always buried my head in the sand and was never a great saver, never even thought about investing. I don’t remember why exactly I read this book, but I started to read this book and realized that actually, if you start early enough and you save even just a bit, and as your earnings increase, if you can save a bit more, there’s a pretty clear path to wealth for a lot of folks. I don’t want to make it seem like it’s, it’s available to everyone because I think we have systemic structural issues that do make it really hard to build wealth. But I think it’s, it’s available to a lot more people than most people think. If you can be prudent, especially in your younger years, that there is a path to wealth and, and that wealth isn’t, we can talk more about this certainly, but wealth isn’t just about, how big your accounts are getting, but it’s also about what does that allow you to do. What sorts of freedom does that allow you to pursue? Once I realized number one, that wealth isn’t just for rich people, you know, building wealth isn’t just for people with trust funds, I think I just started reading every book I could possibly find on personal finance and just became sort of obsessed. So that’s how the interest was born in personal finance and then the career part came later.

15:41 Emily: That’s a fantastic entry point into the subject matter. Finding that perfect book that you could see yourself in — The Millionaire Teacher. And I love that you said it’s a provocative title, it’s an oxymoron. I also have a program called the Wealthy PhD, which is similarly designed to be provocative and “What a PhD can be wealthy? How could that possibly be?” Of course, we’ll talk about that in a moment.

Transitioning into a Career as a Financial Planner

16:05 Emily: You’re falling love the subject of personal finance. How did you make it into your career?

16:10 Andy: The first part was the realization that building wealth isn’t just for rich people, but the most important thing was the second realization, which was that personal finances is not just about finance. It’s not just about the numbers. There’s kind of a corny saying that I’ve heard, but I actually like. It’s that personal finance is more personal than it is finance. I started to make this connection. I was also really deeply immersed in the positive psychology movement at that time. I was reading a lot of work by Marty Seligman and other folks who were really just making the statement that it’s not just about fixing our deficiencies, it’s about how do we get from our baseline and transcend beyond that and live a life that is maybe even better than we ever could have expected.

Andy: I started to make this connection that like, “Oh my God, if building wealth is available to everyone, maybe that can also be a tool for helping people, to use another cliche, live their best life.” How can wealth become a tool to live in accordance with our values and live a life filled with joy and fulfillment? And once I made that connection, that personal finance is the best applied psychology there is, it just clicked for me. I was like, Oh my God, I can do this thing professionally that I’ve become really interested in and sort of honor my love of psychology and that original career trajectory I had set for myself. It was like psychology out in the wild. And that was really exciting for me. I didn’t have to just become, I shouldn’t say just, I didn’t have to become a professor. There were other ways to do that. That was really exciting for me. I was hooked at that point and I haven’t really looked back even a single day since then.

17:49 Emily: That’s such a beautiful expression. I’m completely on board with you, but I hope the audience is hearing this as well, the insights that you just gave, because I think it can maybe explain a lot to them about why they haven’t been successful with personal finance in the past. Even if they’re obviously super smart if they’re PhDs or whatever. But like you said, it’s psychology. It’s personal.

Insights into Personal Finance for PhDs

18:09 Emily: So, you get into this as your career, and I know you’ve had a couple of jobs, but what I want to focus on now is what you have learned from and observed in the academic clients you’ve been working with since you did switch to having a focus on that population in your practice. What does the future look like for someone who is maybe currently in graduate school or otherwise early on in their PhD career? What happens a few decades from now, if they are intentional now with their money?

18:40 Andy: Yeah. That’s such a good question because the answers are very different about when you think about the person who’s intentional versus the person who isn’t. To talk about the people who are intentional, there’s this quote I really love by a guy named Morgan Housel, he just came out with a book called the psychology of money and he says “the ability to do what you want when you want with who you want for as long as you want is priceless. It’s the highest dividend money pays.” And so what comes later down the road for folks who are really intentional and diligent about their personal finances early on is freedom. I guess that’s just the best way to put it. And that can be intellectual freedom, it can be creative freedom, it can be — the one thing I would add to Morgan’s quote is the ability to be wherever you want to.

19:25 Andy: I think when people are investing and saving, it can feel abstract, but the way I think about it is they’re just saving little units of freedom and flexibility and how they end up using those units of freedom and flexibility later on, we don’t necessarily know that on the front end, but when they get there, they’re so happy to have them. I’ve had clients who spend half of the year abroad in South America. I’ve had clients who retired and started a little boutique motel. I’ve had clients who were able to afford to do sort of part-time work very early on, like in their fifties and do a half retirement, half working thing for a period of time. So truly the limits are non-existent. The possibilities are as big as your creativity. What comes later on, I can’t say specifically what comes for each individual person without knowing them, but I can say that everyone I’ve ever talked to who did a good job saving early on was really glad they did. I’ve never once heard somebody say that they regret it.

20:24 Emily: I really love the way you phrased that of, saving up units of freedom and flexibility for the future. I’ve expressed that before as money gives you options. Whatever you want to do, having money is going to make it easier to accomplish that. But I really like the way you phrase it, because I know that for me earlier on when I was in graduate school and so forth, and I still don’t to a degree, didn’t have a clear picture of what my retirement or my long-term future would really look like. I wasn’t really sure what kind of career I would have. I wasn’t really sure where I’d want to live or. I have children now, but when I didn’t, I didn’t know how big my family would be. There was a lot of uncertainty and I think that’s really common for PhDs because if you stay on that track, like you may end up moving many times, it’s very difficult to tell what your life is going to look like many decades from now. That can make it a little more difficult to save for and get motivated about because if you think about the vision board technique, for example, you are supposed to have like a really crystal clear vision of like what you’re going for. When you’re facing reality about what your career might look like as a PhD, it might be difficult to have that clear vision, but I love the way you phrase that of just whatever it ends up looking like, saving up for your freedom and flexibility now we’ll give you your options later on for living wherever, doing whatever with whoever, everything you just listed from Morgan Housel. I really love the way you phrased that.

Commercial

21:51 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold your income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2020 tax return, which are available pfforphds.com/tax. I hope you’ll check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the, or have a question for me. Please join one of my tax workshops, which you can find links to from pfforphds.com/tax. It would be my pleasure to help you save time and potentially money this tax season. So don’t hesitate to reach out. Now back to our interview.

Pitfalls to Avoid as an Early-Career PhD, According to a Financial Planner

22:57 Emily: Do you want to talk about the converse side about mistakes that you’ve seen your clients make or pitfalls that younger people earlier on in their career should avoid?

23:08 Andy: Yeah, absolutely. The number one mistake is a pretty obvious one and it’s just not saving. It doesn’t have to be, Oh, I didn’t have a super high savings rate, it’s people who just decided, I’m going to wait until much later to start saving. And the thing about investing and saving is that time is your best friend. A lot of people think Warren Buffet’s secret is that he’s this fantastic investor, but the truth is Warren Buffet’s secret is that he’s a fantastic investor and he’s been investing now for like 80 years or something like that, so he’s had that time for, for compound interest to take effect. I think starting really late is one thing that a lot of folks end up regretting. When I meet clients who are 60 and maybe they didn’t start saving until they were 45 seriously and they’re a bit behind or a lot behind, I think what really rings true for me is that it makes it very clear in meeting with these folks is that money doesn’t buy happiness, certainly, but it does pave the way for you to build happiness and joy and fulfillment over the time.

24:13 Andy: Conversely, a lack of money can make it really hard to achieve those things. When you’re 60 starting to think about retirement, but knowing you don’t have enough money to fund a decent lifestyle in retirement that you can enjoy, that’s a really tough place to be. And that stress really weighs on people, in my experience. I think a piece of advice I would give to younger people sort of like cautionary advice is just we’ve all probably experienced some version of resource scarcity at some point in our life, especially folks who’ve gone through graduate programs where you just feel like it’s really hard to make ends meet. And we know how stressful that is. I guess the pieces of advice I would give to a lot of folks is that that stress is amplified by 50 to a hundred times, if you’re at the end of your career, because you no longer have three or four decades of earning potential in front of you. It can be really scary for folks. That’s one of the things I’m most passionate about when I work with younger clients is these small changes we can make on the front end, end up making these tremendous differences on the back-end.

25:15 Emily: Compound interest truly amplifies your actions from early on, given that timeline that you were talking about. I’m thinking about someone in the audience who — you mentioned earlier, systemic barriers to building wealth that many people experience. Of course, we have a student loan crisis now that did not exist for the people who you’re working with who are nearing their retirement years. I’m thinking about someone in the audience who is really struggling, or maybe they were really struggling until recently and only in their thirties or forties, they’ve finally gotten to a point where they feel like they have a career and they have the paycheck and they can start saving. What can someone who is struggling or has been struggling do to — I know that time is your best friend, but like what can we do to make up if the time has already passed?

26:04 Andy: What I often tell clients who come to me with that question, because I do get clients who are like, honestly, it’s too late for me. What I tell them is certainly the best time to start building wealth is the first paycheck you get. That’s the best time to start doing it. Knowing that the vast majority of people don’t start then, the second best time is just today. Just start today, wherever you are, whether you’re 30, 35, 45, 55. And I think the best advice I can give people is just start really small. If you don’t have a lot to save, if you don’t have huge amounts that you can put towards paying off your debt, start very small and build up from there. Even if say you’re almost done paying your student loans off and you’re starting to think about saving for retirement, even if you can start saving 1% of your pay and then commit to moving it up by a percentage point, say every three or four months, programs like that eventually will get you on track.

26:58 Andy: And I think taking those baby steps is important because the idea of saving for retirement, it’s one of the biggest financial burdens we’ll ever have to face and it can be really overwhelming. I think for a lot of people, when they hear numbers like, Oh, you need to save 15 or 20% of your income, they think of it in this very binary way. They’re like, well, can’t do that, so I guess I just won’t do it at all. I think what I would really emphasize is just start small and just build up incrementally and you will get there and no matter how much you’re ultimately able to save, you’ll be really glad you did it.

27:32 Emily: Yeah, I completely agree, especially about people being turned off by the big numbers of savings percentages. I remember when I was in graduate school and reading the advice of like have a three to six month emergency fund, I was just like, no way, there’s no way I can save up whatever that would have been at the time, $6,000 or something like that. I saw that as totally out of reach and so I really just didn’t even try. I fell prey to the same kind of psychology that you just said there. But like you said, just saving as much as you can or putting as much as you can towards debt — could be $5, could be $10 — I think one of the most transformational things about that is not necessarily the amount of money that you’re putting towards savings, but just the fact that you have changed your identity to “I am a saver, I am repaying my debt and I am a person who invests” and that alone can be super powerful and is a great building block on this path towards wealth, even if the numbers are not that big yet.

28:31 Andy: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. I think that identity piece is as important or more important than those initial dollars that you’re able to save. I hope people take heart and realize that when you’re just starting on the journey, it’s a little bit like when you watch a rocket ship take off, like watching a space X launch or something. It starts super slow at first. It’s really hard. There’s a gravitational pull that you have to get past, but the momentum builds over time. And once you start to build that momentum, it gets easier and easier. The hardest dollar to save is that very first dollar and every dollar will just get a little easier beyond that. Then eventually once you’ve started to invest as well when you’re at that stage, those dollars will be making more dollars for you while you sleep. That’s the idea of compound interest. Just know that it will never be harder than it is right now and that it does get easier progressively over time.

29:26 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for adding that insight. I totally agree. You hear it in the personal finance community: the first hundred thousand is the hardest to get to in terms of your investments and then getting to the $200,000, $300,000 is so much easier, it takes so much less time. But if we’re talking to grad students, let’s lower that scale — the first $10,000, the first $1,000, the first $100 — every order of magnitude that you go down, it is the hardest at that stage. Once you get that compound interest working in your favor, it happens while you sleep, as you said. I know I’ve experienced this in my own life from grad student years, scrimping to save even $5 more per month was like a big accomplishment and now things look very different 10, 15 years later, in terms of the compound interests working in my favor. I can kind of personally attest that yeah, that first hundred thousand, which I’ve well-documented in the first podcast episode that I published actually, was definitely the hardest. It’s been a lot easier since then.

Going Back to Grad School After a Career Shift

30:25 Emily: Andy, I want to get back to your own story because that’s taken another twist. You’re a CFP, you’re working with clients, but you’ve also recently decided to go back to graduate school. Tell us about that decision

30:40 Andy: There’s still that part of me that identifies as a great student and a person who loves school and I’m actually really grateful to have held onto that identity and so a couple of years ago, I started thinking about going back to school and I ended up signing on for the Masters in Financial Planning Program at Kansas State. I did a dual concentration. Half of the degree was really focused on advanced financial planning, so kind of the numbers side of things — taxes, estate planning, that kind of stuff. The other half was focused on financial therapy, so really taking a very deep dive into the psychology of money.

31:18 Andy: I’m finishing that degree actually in March, so I’ll be done in March and my next juncture is to decide if I want to do the PhD, which it’s so funny to me to think that I might yet again, be considering a PhD, but I think I’m doing so with a different head on my shoulders than before. If I decide to do the PhD program, which I think I will at this point, it’ll really be to further what’s been done with regards to academic research around the field of financial planning because not a ton has been done. It’s a very under-researched field.

31:52 Andy: I wouldn’t want to stop being a financial planner. The way a lot of folks do it in the industry is they get the PhD and then they sort of spend 70% of their time in practice and then the other 30% of their time doing research and publishing and doing some teaching. That for me seems like a pretty good balance, kind of having my foot in one door and the other as well, right now. We’ll see! Hopefully we can check in again in a couple of years and I’ll tell you what I decided.

32:17 Emily: Yeah, that would be excellent!

Best Advice for an Early Career PhD

32:18 Emily: Andy, I wrap up all my interviews by asking my guest, what is your best financial advice for an early career PhD? We’ve obviously already said a lot of advice throughout the course of the interview, but did you have something that you wanted to underline for us or maybe something new that you wanted to throw in?

32:34 Andy: Absolutely. I don’t know if it’s new, but I would definitely say that if it isn’t new deserves to be reemphasized and that is to me, the best investment you can make at any age, if you haven’t already made the investment is in your own financial education. Before you even start thinking about index funds and long-term savings and 401ks and things like that, just investing in your own knowledge and establishing a baseline understanding of personal finance, I think is the best possible thing anyone can do.

33:05 Andy: One critique I have the financial services industry is that I think a lot of the messaging has been set up to tell people this is too complicated or too time consuming or whatever “too this” or “too that”. It’s not for you to do, it’s for you to hire us to do. I think in some cases that’s true. When things do get complicated, it is really helpful to have a professional. I believe that obviously as a financial planner. But the basics are not complicated. It’s not to say it’s easy to master them because you know, saving money is never easy, but the principles are not complicated. I always just recommend folks, if you can take 10 or 12 hours, you will basically have mastered the fundamentals of personal finance.

33:49 Andy: A couple of books that I always recommend to people — one is The Index Card by Helaine Olen and Harold Pollack, which is rooted in this idea that basically everything you need to know about personal finance can fit on one five by seven index card. I love that idea and I tend to agree. A second one I’ve already mentioned is The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. If The Index Card tells you how to do it, The Psychology of Money is like a user’s guide to your money brain, which is a pretty interesting part of your brain as it turns out. And then the third is The Millionaire Next Door by Thomas Stanley. That’s probably my all time favorite because it really shows that the type of people who become millionaires actually aren’t the ones who you would think become millionaires. It’s not the people driving Mercedes and BMWs and living in fancy neighborhoods. It’s the people who have high savings rates. You don’t see their wealth because it’s all stowed away in investment accounts. I find that book just to be very empowering. Invest in your education, that would be my advice.

34:51 Emily: Yeah. I completely, completely agree. And also starting with books, I really love that idea. It’s kind of old school, but it’s how I started my journey into personal finance as well was reading some well curated material. Actually since you mentioned books, inside the Personal Finance Community, we are currently as of December, 2020 reading The Millionaire Next Door in our book club. Morgan Housel’s book is on the slate for January, 2021. And then The Index Card is one I have not read before, but it’s actually been on my list as another book to consider for that. I’m not sure when this will be published, but when it is, if you’re interested in reading these kinds of books along with some of your other peers, check out the Personal Finance for PhDs community, pfforphds.community, you can see what the current book is we’re reading, the next one on page. If that’s your thing, please come and join us and have some discussions around these books because I love taking these sort of general personal finance texts and bringing it into, okay, well, how does this apply to graduate students and post-docs and early career PhDs? What is this really saying to our population with our particular psychology and career path and so forth. I totally agree with your advice about investing in your education. That’s one way people can do it if they want to do it with me and with others in our community.

36:03 Emily: Andy, last, last question here is where can people find you if they have really connected with you during this interview? Or maybe they want to recommend you to someone in their life?

36:13 Andy: Yeah, absolutely. ThePlanningCenter.com, you can find me there. You can find my email there as well, which is [email protected]. I’m on LinkedIn, very active on LinkedIn for a time. Tried to get active on Twitter so you can find me on Twitter, but I will say I’ve neglected my Twitter page and find the whole thing to be a bit overwhelming. So probably email or website or LinkedIn would be the best.

36:36 Emily: Thank you so much for joining me today and for giving us your insight

Listener Q&A: Are Fellowships Taxable

Question

36:47 Emily: Now on to listener question and answer segment. Today’s question was asked in advance of one of the live Q and A calls I host as part of my workshop, “How to complete your grad student tax return and understand it too.” Here is the question. “Is the NSF GRFP fellowship taxable? It’s not listed on the 1098-T form. I have no tax documents relating to it.”

Answer

37:12 Emily: Yes, the NSF GRFP is, generally speaking, taxable income, even if it’s not reported on any tax forms, I’ll quote from publication 970, page five: “A fellowship grant is generally an amount paid for the benefit of an individual to aid in the pursuit of study or research.” Fellowships can be tax-free under certain conditions, which implies that they are not tax-free if they don’t meet those conditions. Publication 970 page five further states: “A scholarship or fellowship grant is tax-free only to the extent it doesn’t exceed your qualified education expenses.”

37:52 Emily: There are two additional points that further limit the conditions under which fellowships are tax-free but just going off of that first one, if your fellowship exceed your qualified education expenses, it is not tax-free. The NSF GRFP is composed of two parts, a $34,000 stipend and $12,000 for a cost of education allowance. If the $12,000 to the institution goes entirely to qualified education expenses, for example, tuition and required fees, that portion would be tax-free. To whatever extent the $34,000 stipend goes toward qualified education expenses, it would also be tax-free, but I suspect that little to none of it does, perhaps just some required course related expenses at most. You probably use the stipend for your personal living expenses and savings and that means that it’s not tax-free. Strangely enough, the IRS does not require universities and funding agencies to report fellowship income in any way. Some universities do report the NSF GRFP award on the form 1098-T, but others do not. It’s completely up to their discretion.

39:03 Emily: If you would like to learn more about the taxability of fellowships, please listen to season two, bonus episode one. To go even deeper into how to calculate your taxable income and higher education tax benefits as a grad student, whether you have a fellowship or not, please join “How to complete your grad student tax return and understand it too” at pfforphds.com/taxworkshop. If you’d like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

39:41 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest, and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list serve, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt, repayment and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe through that list. You’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. Music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC podcast, editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

This PhD Found Financial Peace through Pursuing FIRE

by

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. 50 of By 50 Journey, a federal employee who is pursuing financial independence and early retirement (FIRE). Dr. 50 came to the US after finishing college, but worked minimum wage jobs while she learned English until she could apply to PhD programs. She worked full-time to self-fund her PhD over six years. Ultimately the PhD was a game-changer for Dr. 50’s income, and within three or four years of finishing she was earning a six-figure salary. However, a higher salary was not the solution to her family’s financial problems. Dr. 50 describes her emotions at their financial low point, when they completed their debt repayment journey, and upon discovering the FIRE movement. Dr. 50 concludes the interview with an incredible insight regarding financial struggle and striving.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

PhD FIRE

Teaser

00:00 Dr. 50: And one day I was like, okay, this is it. I am making a six-figure salary and I couldn’t even afford a lunch at the cafeteria. And it’s like a wake-up call. I need to do something. We need to do something.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode 16, and today my guest is Dr. 50 of By 50 Journey, a federal employee who is pursuing financial independence and early retirement: FIRE. Dr. 50 came to the U.S. after finishing college, but worked minimum wage jobs while she learned English until she could apply for PhD programs. She worked full-time to self-fund her PhD over six years. Ultimately, the PhD was a game-changer for Dr. 50’s income, and within three or four years of finishing, she was earning a six-figure salary. However, a higher salary was not the solution to her family’s financial problems. Dr. 50 describes her emotions at their financial low point when they completed their debt repayment journey. And upon discovering the FIRE movement. Listen through to the end for an incredible insight from Dr. 50 regarding financial struggle and striving.

01:28 Emily: We’ve just passed decision day, April 15th, so I’d like to extend a massive congratulations to everyone who committed to a graduate program for fall 2021. This is an incredibly exciting period of time. As you dream about and plan this new phase of your life, keep your finances top of mind. You’ve already made the biggest financial decision of your graduate career by one, choosing to attend graduate school, and two, committing to a specific stipend and location. The next biggest decisions are housing and transportation, which presumably you will lock in over the next few months. Before making those big commitments, I recommend that you sketch a budget to figure out how much you can afford while ideally maintaining some kind of savings rate. If you would like some help with that process, join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. Inside the Community, you’ll find my How to Draft a Budget From a Distance webinar and custom spreadsheet. We also have a forum and monthly live calls where we can chat more about your specific situation. I would love to assist you with this process in any way that I can.

Book Giveaway Contest

02:44 Emily: Now, it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In April, 2021, I’m giving away one copy of Walden on Wheels by Ken Ilgunas, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for June 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during April will have a chance to win a copy of this book. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of April from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. The podcast received a review recently titled exactly what I was looking for. Quote, having read a lot of scattered news articles and attending college workshops, I still felt a need for expert advice on investment strategies for international students. I stumbled upon this podcast while doing my weekly finance research, and I can say that Dr. Roberts does a phenomenal job at it. PF for PhDs is one of the few resources I could find which has got something for every grad student trying to figure out personal finances. Highly recommend it to incoming and current students alike. End quote. Thank you so much for this review. I am focusing more energy in 2021 on serving international students, postdocs, and workers, and I’m so glad that is coming across. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. 50 from By 50 Journey.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:19 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. 50. She actually goes by Mrs. 50 on her blog, By 50 Journey, which is a FIRE journey blog. However, she does have a PhD. So, we’re going to call her Dr. 50 today. She has an incredible story to tell us about coming to the U.S. As an immigrant, speaking no English, having no money, and you know, pursuing a PhD and ultimately being on this path to financial independence and early retirement. So, really delighted to get her story today. Dr. 50, welcome to the podcast. And will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

04:55 Dr. 50: Thank you so much. That was a really great introduction. Yes. That was a long time ago. I would say like over two decades, I came to this country and I had nothing. I mean, it’s nothing. So, I was trying to get a job, but I didn’t get any, because of course I didn’t speak any English. I couldn’t even answer a simple question like, how are you, what are you doing? Because I could understand, but I couldn’t express myself. So meaning trying to get a job, even a simple job. I couldn’t get it. So I was thinking, ah, this is, this is tougher than I thought it would be to start spending my life in a new country with my new husband. And I was trying, okay, let’s go back to grad school. That way I have friends. I have professor, I have, everybody so I can practice on my English. Because back in the day I didn’t have any friends, I don’t have anybody, except just for my husband. Right?

05:59 Dr. 50: And years later, I got accepted into grad school. I was so happy, but on the back of my mind, Oh well, okay, now here I am, I didn’t have any money. I didn’t have any financial support. And then I was trying to get funding, trying to get an assistantship, fellowship, whatever that was available. I didn’t get it. So, my first semester I used my credit card to pay for the tuition. I was, Oh, this is not going well. I have to do it better. So I was trying to find a job on campus. But as a student, we couldn’t work more than 20 hours. I said, this is not going to be enough to pay for everything. And not even the rent. Finally, in my second year of grad school, I got a full-time job which was wonderful. I was so grateful and I worked my way and then time flies.

07:07 Dr. 50: I got my master’s and PhD in six years because I was like, okay, let’s get this done as soon as possible so I can get a job and make real money. Right after I finished my PhD, I got a very great offer, even though I finished in the year 2008. So, everybody knows 2008 was the financial crisis. So I denied that job offer. I don’t know why, maybe because of the years, years, and the struggle of the grad school, I didn’t want to get that job because it was so stressful. So I accepted, I was a post-doc for a year and a half. During that time I was trying to find a real job. So I got a great job offer again. And then I got that job. And then my income was increased significantly. I would say, like triple. But unfortunately that job, it was in the city and I was traveling 90% of the time.

08:11 Dr. 50: And I just had a baby. I was happy with my job, but the work-life balance was not great. So I quit my dream job and then I had to find a job that’s not in the city. And then I got that with a negotiation that I negotiated with them. I managed to get the same salary that I had in the city, but I would live in the country. So, which is great. So, the struggle that was in grad school and a great job offer and determination and then patience. So I would say this is from, didn’t speak English to have a career that I wanted because of my PhD, and I was really happy. So, I’m ready to go on to the next level.

Pre-Grad School Finances

09:12 Emily: Yeah. I want to tease out a couple other pieces of that stories so that I understand it correctly. And thank you for giving us that like overarching view of how your career has evolved. So, it sounds like when you came to the U.S., it was a few years in between when you first arrived and when you were accepted to graduate school, is that right?

09:33 Dr. 50: That is correct.

09:35 Emily: And so, were you ultimately able to find some kind of job? I know that you said that you struggled at first, but how were the finances for you and your husband during that pre-grad school period?

09:46 Dr. 50: Yeah, I had odd jobs washing dishes. I answered the phone. I worked in a Chinese restaurant. I worked in a factory. I worked night shift. I did everything that I could do to earn money. And back in the day, it was the minimum wage. I believe it was $4.75 an hour. And yes, we were struggling before I got accepted into school. Even though after I accepted into grad school, we were still struggling because okay, now I spend my time studying during the day. I didn’t have time to earn money, so it was zero, but yeah. And using credit cards to pay for living expenses, even to pay for rent.

10:33 Emily: Yeah. So, it sounds like you very clearly identified the PhD, having that credential, as the path out of these minimum wage positions, is that correct?

10:44 Dr. 50: Yes. Yes. Definitely.

PhD as a Path to Professorship

10:47 Emily: If you had stayed in your home country, do you think you would have pursued a PhD?

10:53 Dr. 50: Yes, because before I met my husband I had a fellowship lined up for me, which they would pay for my school expenses, tuition, and living expenses. And yeah, I was about to go to doing my masters at the time, but decision between, okay, stay here and pursue my dream of becoming a professor or go there and be with my husband, and the love all my life. So, it’s a life-changing decision.

11:28 Emily: I am glad to hear, though, that you were already oriented in that direction. You were already planning on doing the PhD. It’s just, you decided to do it in a different country and had to take a couple steps back and learn the language and so forth. But you still got to, in terms of doing the PhD, you still got to that same goal.

11:44 Dr. 50: Yes. I always wanted to be a professor. A university professor.

Making Ends Meet in Grad School

11:49 Emily: And one other question I had about kind of the finances during graduate school. You said that you initially started out financing, you know, you weren’t funded, so you were financing it through consumer debt, and ultimately you got, I think you said a full-time job, right? So was it the case that your PhD was never funded? You didn’t have an assistantship or a fellowship, but you worked aside from doing the PhD?

12:10 Dr. 50: Yes. I worked 20 hours at the university dining hall in the morning from 3:30 to eight o’clock. And then during the day I worked as a lab technician for 40 hours. So yeah, my week was full. I would get up at three o’clock and then wouldn’t come home until 11 at night.

12:38 Emily: So you were working 60 hours at jobs plus the PhD work?

12:45 Dr. 50: Yes. And I enrolled full-time because if I did it part-time, it would drag me to eight or 10 years. I couldn’t afford that. That’s too long.

12:57 Emily: Wow. Incredible. I can’t, I can’t even fathom how you got through that. And you said it took six years, right?

13:07 Dr. 50: Yeah. It took six years, a master’s for two years and PhD for four years.

13:11 Emily: And you kept up that, I mean, I’m just like flabbergasted, you kept up that schedule the whole time?

13:16 Dr. 50: Yes. And finally, when I did my research, I quit my dining hall job because it was, Oh, it’s early. And I had that job because I got free meals. So, to save money, so I got free meals for five days. So, that’s awesome. Finally, I didn’t have time to do my research, so I quit that job and then I just kept my full-time job.

Post-PhD Finances

13:45 Emily: Yeah. I think we’re getting a real picture of how your finances were, but what it took, the work it took to keep yourself afloat, you and your husband afloat, during that time. And you know, clearly why you had the motivation to do the PhD. So, I’m really glad to hear that element of the story. Thank you. And so, you told us a little bit earlier about, you know, having the postdoc position and then, you know, taking a couple of different jobs, post-PhD. Did you want to add anything in there about how your income has been or anything like that?

14:20 Dr. 50: Yeah, sure. So, during my grad school years, the part-time one was the dining hall one. That was minimum paid. So, it was like, six or $7 an hour for 20 hours. So, that wasn’t that much. My full-time job, I worked as a lab technician that was $15 an hour. Back in the day, that was, I’d say 15 years ago, that was a lot for me. So, I’d say that I earned the most was $34,000 a year. That was awesome. That’s great money for us. That allowed us to buy a house, this would be our first house, and I didn’t have to worry much about my school tuition. And during that time I was able to talk to my boss, have them pay for a couple of classes. So, that was great. And so, post-PhD I had a postdoc and that doubled my income. I earned $63,000. That was in 2009. I graduated in 2008. So, it was double wage. Our finances were starting to get a lot, a lot better.

15:42 Emily: I just want to ask there, what kind of setting was that postdoc position in? Because that sounds like a pretty well-paid one, especially for that time.

15:52 Dr. 50: I was in the federal agency.

15:55 Emily: Okay. Gotcha.

Money Mindset: Salary Negotiation

Dr. 50 (15:56): And I, again, I negotiated my salary. I always had this mindset, even though with the federal, we have to follow rules and although certain staff follow certain salary level. Yeah. I negotiated. So, actually, it started at, I believe back in the day, was like $51,000 and I was able to get $63,000.

16:23 Emily: I think that’s a really great tip for anyone else who’s looking to apply for federal jobs because you have the, it’s the GS system, is that right?

16:31 Dr. 50: Yeah, it’s the GS system. Even though you’ve been told, okay, this position will give you the GS level this or accept this, you can always negotiate with them. Even though they have the fixed table to follow, you always can negotiate. Yeah. So, after the postdoc, I got a really great job offer in the city. This is in New York city. I was like, Oh my God, New York city, that’s a high cost of living. But it was a job of my dreams. So, I took it and my salary was doubled again. So, I made a six-figure salary. So I came from making minimum wage and then making a six-figure salary within, I would say, three or four years after I got my PhD. So, it was very quick.

17:28 Emily: Yeah. And then you said you maintained that salary even though you didn’t live in New York anymore.

17:33 Dr. 50: Yes.

17:33 Emily: Yeah. That’s fantastic.

17:35 Dr. 50: I came back to the federal, and I negotiated with them again. Different agency. And then they said, yes. I said, Oh my gosh. Yeah. It was so wonderful.

17:46 Emily: And do you still work for the federal government?

17:47 Dr. 50: Yes.

Overcoming a Large Financial Struggle

17:48 Emily: Okay. Yes. Thank you so much. It’s an incredible income trajectory. Also in this period post-PhD, I understand you overcame a large financial struggle. Can you tell us about that?

18:01 Dr. 50: Yes. So, during my graduate school years, I mean, as I already told you guys, we didn’t have much. Plus I supported myself and my family, husband, because he was still trying to finish his college also. So, I’d been using credit cards to pay for my tuition. And I was trying to pay it off every month. Some months I did, and some months I did not. So, it’s accumulated from there. And also, when I got my first real job in the New York City, we had our first child and then baby came and husband still couldn’t find any jobs. So, he was unemployed for a long time. Plus, the daycare cost was like so high. So, it’s better for him to be at home and take care of the baby. And then I’ll take care of the financial side of it.

19:04 Dr. 50: And yes, during this time we have surgeries, hospital, car wreck, and everything you can imagine. So, we accumulated a lot of debt. And one day I was like, okay, this is it. I am making a six-figure salary, and I couldn’t even afford a lunch at the cafeteria. And it’s like a wake up call. I need to do something. We need to do something. So, I say to myself, okay, no more excuses. I don’t want to wait until he got a job or I don’t want to wait until the baby leaves the daycare and goes to school. Let’s start now. Let’s do it. Yeah, all of the frustration. I just made our plan, trying to pay off the debt and made a budget and started doing my excel sheets. And then we go from there. And then in less than six years, all the debt was gone, including the mortgage.

20:04 Emily: Wow. What was the total debt balance then? Between the mortgage and the consumer debt that you were working on?

20:10 Dr. 50: Yeah, we had one car payment that was $18,000 and credit card debt was almost $80,000 and the mortgage was $114,000. So, I would say that 230 to $240,000.

20:26 Emily: Wow. So, within six years you paid off 230, $240,000 of debt on $120k ish, it sounds like, salary. Plus your husband was not working or maybe started working at some point during that period?

20:43 Dr. 50: No.

20:43 Emily: Not working during that period.

20:45 Dr. 50: He was not working yet.

20:45 Emily: Okay. Home with the baby.

20:48 Dr. 50: Yes, home with the baby.

A Shift in Money Mindset

20:48 Emily: Yes, plenty of work there. But it doesn’t sound to me, I want to ask you a little bit more about that transition about that day you couldn’t buy the lunch, you were so frustrated. Because the things that you mentioned, you know, that got you into the debt, the medical bills and the car wreck, none of that was frivolous spending. So, what did change actually at that point?

21:13 Dr. 50: It changed because, it’s kind of embarrassing to say, but I spent hours, hours just to pay a couple of bills. Because I have to think in advance, okay, if we have enough to pay for this and that before the next paycheck comes in. So, basically, we were living paycheck to paycheck. We stressed ourselves financially. Okay, the baby crying, I was trying to pay the bills. And I spent a lot to pay a couple of bills. This is, something’s wrong here. It’s not right. So I was, yeah. From there. Okay. Let’s make a decision to tackle this issue from the cause. Yeah. I was struggling and sad, and then I had nobody else to turn to. And I would say, let’s do this. I don’t want to wait any longer. Let’s do it. Our lifestyle will change, no more shopping, no more eating out. Let’s do this. If we do this, we can do this in under 10 years. In 10 years, we will be a whole new person, a new family, and then life will be much better.

22:29 Emily: And is that how you felt when you, you know, sent off the last payment?

22:33 Dr. 50: I felt relief. Okay, I don’t have to make all these calculations and then try to predict the future if my paycheck will be the same or if we will have any unexpected expenses. But I was like, Oh, well, okay, now we are definitely, the debt is gone. I still, so surprisingly, I still felt the same. It wasn’t the financial that I was looking for. I feel I miss something. We were missing something, but I couldn’t put a word to it until I found the FIRE movement.

Discovering the FIRE Movement

23:16 Emily: Yeah. So FIRE, acronym for financial independence and early retirement or retire early. Would you please explain for my audience, you know, your version of what FIRE is and why that spoke to you, and why you decided to pursue it?

23:31 Dr. 50: Yeah. So, before I knew it was a thing I always, Oh, wait, I don’t want to work. I don’t want to do this for the next 40 years. I mean, I only get one take on this planet. I want to do something that really matters, really matters to me and to my family, and really matters, that I am passionate about. I don’t want to spend my 40 years doing this. So, but I didn’t know what that feeling was until I met the FIRE movement, which you already said stands for financial independence, retire early. So, at this point, I want to be financially independent. The retire early can come back later. So, to me, FIRE means that you don’t have to worry about money anymore, meaning you don’t have to be worried about making a living, making money to support your lifestyle, your life. I mean, you can spend your time doing what really matters. To me, I really have a passion about helping animals in need, dogs and cats at the shelter. So, I really want to pursue that.

Commercial

24:50 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. This announcement is for prospective and first-year graduate students. My colleague, Dr. Toyin Alli of The Academic Society, offers a fantastic course just for you called Grad School Prep. The course teaches you Toyin’s four-step Grad Boss method, which is to uncover grad school secrets, transform your mindset, up-level your productivity, and master time management. I contributed a very comprehensive webinar to the course titled Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School. It explores the financial norms of grad school and the financial secrets of grad school. I also give you a plan for what to focus on in your finances in each season of the year that you apply to and into your first year of grad school. If this all sounds great to you, please register at theacademicsociety.com/Emily for Toyin’s free masterclass on what to expect in your first semester of grad school, and the three big mistakes that keep grad students stuck in a cycle of anxiety, overwhelm, and procrastination. You’ll also learn more about how to join Grad School Prep, if you’d like to go a step further. Again, that’s theacademic society.com/E M I L Y for my affiliate link for the course. Now, back to our interview.

Striving for Financial Independence

26:18 Emily: It sounds like when you were heavily in consumer debt and you had your mortgage, you were stressed out and you thought that it was because you were playing this paycheck-to-paycheck game, right? Which is super common, that you have to really figure out, you know, when things can be paid so you have money in the bank to do it and all that. But then, once you got out of that level of stress, you said you still kind of felt the same. And so it sounds like you realized that it wasn’t just the paycheck to paycheck game. It was that you had to have a paycheck at all. You wanted to be freed of needing to work to support your lifestyle.

26:53 Dr. 50: Exactly. Yes. I still felt the same. I was surprised. Oh my gosh. I should just be, feel very happy. Definitely I felt relieved, but it wasn’t the happiness that I was looking for. And then, yeah, I just don’t want to have any paychecks at all. I just want to have my money working for me instead of working for the money. I had been working for the money for a long time, and I don’t want to work for the money anymore.

27:19 Emily: I see. Can you give us a little bit of more of the technicalities of how FIRE works, at least in your example? Like, do you have a number that you’re shooting for, and what are the strategies that you’re using to get to that point?

27:31 Dr. 50: Yes. I have several options. So, because my older child and my husband had a chronic disease that the health insurance is the other issue, but yeah, I have a couple options here. So, the first option would be, we accumulate enough money that we can live off the investments, mainly to live off the dividends or the 4% rules. If you Google 4% rules, you will know what it is.

FIRE: The 4% Rule

28:03 Emily: Yeah. I’ll just say for the listener that there’s kind of a rule of thumb in the FIRE movement, which is that if you are supporting yourself through paper assets, stocks and bonds and so forth, the rule is that you save up, invest, 25 times your expected spending level in your retirement, or if that’s what you’re doing, and that you can withdraw 4% per year from your portfolio over the long-term without endangering, you know, that you’re going to draw it down to zero. That’s a really brief explanation. There’s a lot more underneath that, but that’s the gist of the 4% rule.

28:40 Dr. 50: Yes. So, the first option would just live off the 4% rules and everybody will be staying home and taking care of the kids. So, I just had a baby this year, so yeah, the FIRE just came back to me again. And then the second option would be like my husband keeps working. So, we will have the health insurance that we desperately need. And I would be at home and taking care of the baby. And then the third option would be to move to another country that has the universal health insurance. So, we would get that issue covered, and then we’d just live off of the investment.

29:20 Emily: Yeah. So, which one is your plan A?

29:23 Dr. 50: My plan A is the option two. So, have him keep working so we don’t have to move. And then, because by that time they’d be about to get close to the number. The younger one was still be in elementary school. So, would be just like six or seven years old.

29:40 Emily: Okay. And I think this, you know, this health insurance thing that you brought up is something that is such a big conversation in the FIRE movement in the United States, not necessarily elsewhere. And there are plenty of people who are keeping jobs, not because they need the money, but just because health insurance or the risk that you take, if you went on certain kinds of health insurance plans, is so great here. So, it sounds like either your husband will keep working, or maybe at some point we will have a universal option and then that’ll give you a lot more flexibility.

30:11 Dr. 50: Yes, that’s true. Yeah. If you have that flexibility, that would be great. He doesn’t mind working at all. He loves working. So, I’m really grateful for that.

Federal Retirement Benefits

30:21 Emily: Since you’re a federal government employee, do you have a pension? Or do you have like defined contribution plans, or what’s the deal with your retirement?

30:30 Dr. 50: Yes, I do have a pension that is very, very small. So, let’s say if I worked for 30 years plus if you meet MRA, MRA stands for minimal retirement age, if you meet 30 years at your minimum retirement age, you will get 1% of your high three of your salary. The high three is your last three years of your salary. Let’s say, to make the math easier, if you make a hundred thousand a year for the last three years before you resign. So, 1% of that, and times 30 years, so it’s only $30,000 a year, plus tax and all the deduction, it wouldn’t be much. And we have a 401(k), like any other industry, but what we call it TSP. TSP stands for Thrift Savings Plans. So, it works just like 401(k), but it’s just called differently.

Investment Changes Toward  Achieving the FIRE Goal

31:39 Emily: And since you already went through that massive debt payoff journey before discovering the FIRE movement, was there anything that you actually started changing in your finances once you had that identified as your goal?

31:52 Dr. 50: Yes. I’m glad that you asked that question. So, it changed dramatically. So, I’ve always been maxing out my 401(k), or my TSP, every year. Okay. So, we agreed as a family that we’re going to pursue FIRE. Let’s do something different. Because if I keep my job, if I still continue trying to do a traditional retirement, I would work into my MRA at 57 or 60 years. And if you want to pursue FIRE, we need to fill a gap between that because I cannot take the money out until 59 and a half. So that gap, we cannot draw our 401(k) or any retirement account. So, we opened a broker’s account and instead of maxing out my 401(k) and his 401(k), we just contribute to the match just enough to get the match from our employer. And then divert all the money from that into the brokerage account, the taxable account.

33:00 Emily: So, that sounds like you felt like your post-60 retirement was well-funded enough. And I mean, you’re still going to get the match, so there’s still more growth and a little bit more contribution there, but it sounded like you thought that that was well-funded enough. So, now you’re going to focus on those years between whenever you do stop working and when you can start to access those retirement accounts.

33:21 Dr. 50: Yes. It would be about 10 years. So, the “50” came from, I would like to retire by the time I turn 50. Yeah, so, 10 years I calculated it. All the expenses in the future. I came up with the numbers that we have to have at least $600,000, or $600,000 to be okay, that’s the lean FIRE. If you want to get more comfortable, I say $750,000. That will get up to be better than lean FIRE. Lean FIRE is just like, minimal, barely enough to live on.

34:00 Emily: Anything else that you changed aside from the destination of your investments?

34:05 Dr. 50: Yeah, that’s the one thing. And then we also, any leftover money that we can save, any activity that we cannot pass by, like re-doing our budget, do the meal plan. Budget system number one and meal planning, not going out, basically just frugal living. And then I started a side business. Anything that I can sell. And as a family we like, talk, okay, this is the goal that we want to do. And everybody was on board and yeah. Every little thing, side hustles, living frugally, anything will go to the FIRE account.

Lifestyle and Money Mindset Pre- vs. Post-Grad School

34:54 Emily: How does, how you’re living now–you know, frugally and so forth, saving a lot, working hard–how does that compare to that pre-grad school period, or even the time when you were in graduate school, and you had that heavy workload? I guess I’m asking, how does your lifestyle compare, and also how do you feel about your finances now compared to back then?

35:18 Dr. 50: I would say I feel a little bit better. Because back in the day, we were struggling financially trying to put food on the table, trying to pay rent and then trying to pay the mortgage. Right now, we’ve comfortably more than enough to pay all the expenses, living expenses and mortgage, everything is on auto pay. I didn’t have to worry about if we have enough money. If the bill comes in, if we have a roof leak, if we have a broken pipe, we have emergency funds. So yes, my feeling was much better, but financially I was still trying to meet my financial goal, which is the financial independence. So it’s a different feeling, but I would say a different feeling kind of between struggle and the finish line, I would say.

36:14 Emily: So, sort of like struggling to get off the starting blocks. Right? To even make it, you know, to have a tiny bit of financial security, versus now, like you just said, you can see the finish line. You’re striving and you’re racing for that finish line. And yeah, I would imagine that, even if your lifestyle is pretty low, like you’ve tried to like be pretty frugal and stuff, having that financial security of the, you know, X, many hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, in the bank and the investments, it has to be a massive, massive relief on your mind.

36:49 Dr. 50: Yes. Yeah. It would be a relief because right now we trying, I would say we are in an accumulation phase trying to get as much money into the FIRE as much as possible, as soon as possible. But at the same time, I just don’t want to stress myself out. Because one thing that I learned from our debt-free journey, our debt journey was like, because at the end of the day, you just want to be happy, right? The money doesn’t make you happy. You just need to learn to live in the moment, even though you are trying to achieve something or aim for something, but overall you just want to be happy and just trying to live in the day. I just don’t want to stress out too much because during our debt journey, I was so stressed out. I just wanted to be out of debt so badly. I just didn’t want to spend at all.

37:47 Dr. 50: And I wasn’t happy. And when we were debt-free, I still wasn’t happy. Now, we are on the FIRE path, FIRE journey. I just don’t want to be the same. I just want to enjoy a little bit more of my life. I just want to stop and breathe and enjoy every single day. I just don’t want to wait, because if you wait, you will feel depressed. And if you ever feel like it will never come. So yes, I take it easy and just live in the day. And that day will come before you know it.

Was the PhD Financially Worthwhile?

38:24 Emily: I’m really glad to hear you say that. That’s a message I need to hear. I need to hear that and be able to focus on living in the moment more and not striving. And I’m really glad to hear you say that because I know that some people in the FIRE movement do stay very caught up in the end goal. And even though sort of the philosophy around FIRE would be to be living in the moment both while you’re pursuing it and once you’ve achieved it, a lot of people do fall into just thinking about the future and living for the future and you know, not taking the time to enjoy the time they have at the moment, which is all we have. Right? Really. So, I’m really glad to hear that you’ve, based on your debt free journey, you’ve already learned that lesson. And you’re now, you know, beyond that and into still enjoying your life even while you’re pursuing FIRE. So, I’m really pleased to hear that. Do you think the PhD was financially worthwhile?

39:14 Dr. 50: Oh, yes. In my case, for me. For me, it was worthwhile. I am glad that I made the right decision to pursue a PhD because it’s opened so many doors for us. If I were working at my minimum wage job at a factory, or I was afraid to take the risk of not having any paycheck and then just went straight to grad school without any backup plan. We wouldn’t be here today. Yes. It was very worthwhile. Yeah.

Best Financial Advice for an Early-Career PhD

39:47 Emily: Yes. I can see that clearly from the story now. And so, Dr. 50, I conclude all my interviews by asking my guest what is your best financial advice for an early-career PhD? That could be something we’ve talked about already. It could be something completely different, but would you please share that with us?

40:04 Dr. 50: Yeah, sure. I say, from my past experience as a PhD graduate, you feel like, Oh my gosh, I have a PhD behind my name now. I make a ton of money. Even though it’s not a ton, I would say, it’s increased your income. My one piece of advice would be trying to live the same. Don’t let the life inflation get you. Because if you do that, it will be never enough. I mean, it’s how much you make, how advancing your career brings you. It will not be enough. You just, if you just keep inflating your lifestyle. I’m not saying that you should be conscious as a graduate student, but on the back of your mind, trying to do like other peers are doing. I’m not saying like, you should live this way, but yeah. Lifestyle inflation, it really hurts your financial life.

40:59 Emily: Yeah. And it definitely sounds like you were there, you did that for a little while. I like to say, don’t inflate your lifestyle, but increase your lifestyle. Increase it intentionally, mindfully. But don’t, yeah. Don’t just let it float up to, you know, whatever your salary is.

41:16 Dr. 50: Yes.

41:17 Emily: Yes. I love that advice. Thank you so much. Dr. 50, it’s been a real pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

41:22 Dr. 50: Oh, thank you so much. I’m glad to be here. And I’m so honored to be on this podcast. I am. I hope that my life lesson and experience will be helpful to you guys in some way, some small way. Thank you so much for having me here.

Listener Q&A: Financial Independence

41:42 Emily: Now on to the listener question and answer segment. Today’s question was asked in advance of a live webinar I gave recently for a university client. So, it is anonymous. Here is the question. Quote, can you start a journey to financial independence in grad school. End quote. Wow. It is awesome that this person is already thinking about long-term financial independence as a graduate student. The answer is, unequivocally, yes. In fact, if you’d like to think about it this way, you have already started your journey to financial independence in grad school, because you are making a long-term investment in your career, and presumably, your earning potential. While FIRE is achievable in theory by anyone, it’s definitely an easier road if you have a good salary. So, in that sense, if getting a graduate degree is going to put you on a road to a good salary, you’re already pursuing financial independence. Now, what can you do while you’re actually in graduate school to pursue financial independence?

42:46 Emily: No matter what your income, you can work on your mindset. You can learn more about personal finance. You can put strong habits into place, which you’ll definitely need during graduate school, like budgeting and frugality. Your income is always going to be rather low during grad school, but that’s not the only side of the equation when it comes to financial independence. Your expenses matter a lot as well. I would say, during this period of time, when your income is suppressed, you should take the time to master the controlling expenses side of the equation. But that’s not all. Even with a lower income during grad school, you can work on increasing your net worth. This is what I put a lot of focus on when I was in graduate school. Tactically, once you have your budget set up and hopefully a bit of free cashflow, you can put that towards saving, debt repayment, or investing, following, like I’ve talked about in recent weeks, the financial framework that I developed for PhDs.

43:43 Emily: Now, here’s one key concept that might not have occurred to you yet. While you’re in graduate school and you have this lower income, you also have a lower tax rate. Graduate students tend to, unless they’re married to someone with a much higher income, top out in the 12% federal marginal tax bracket or lower. And that means that it is a perfect time to use a Roth IRA for your retirement investments. Especially, again, if you anticipate a large income increase postgraduate school, this is probably the most optimal time in your life to be using a Roth IRA. And presumably it’s also the earliest investing you’ll do, so it has the longest timeline to compound and grow. People are crazy for the Roth IRA, and they will contribute even when they’re in incredibly high tax bracket. So, you really have, if you think about it, a great opportunity to be able to contribute to the Roth IRA without paying a high tax rate. And five years or so investing in a Roth IRA and then decades compounding after that, this will be a very big portion of your portfolio, ultimately, even if you don’t contribute in absolute numbers a lot of money during grad school. Thank you so much for this question, Anonymous, and I’m so glad to learn that you are already on your journey to financial independence. If you’d like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

45:18 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast, and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How a Boom-and-Bust Money Mindset from Grad School Serves This Start-Up Founder Well

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Lindy Ledohowski, a PhD in English, former tenure-track professor, and founder of the ed tech start-up EssayJack. Lindy describes the money mindset she developed as a college and graduate student while experiencing boom and bust cycles of income and budgeting for must-haves and investments in herself. Lindy narrates how her money mindset has been in concordance or not with how she’s generated income throughout her career, and how it is serving her well now as a start-up founder. She emphasizes that a safety net enables career risk and how she prefers to bet on herself rather than other financial instruments.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

money mindset PhD

Teaser

00:00 Lindy: Even that TA income that was more regular, certainly wasn’t enough to comfortably cover month to month costs. I’ve since read that you’re not supposed to spend something more than one third of your income on fixed housing costs and that was never my case. It was often I was spending anywhere from 60 to 90% of what monthly envelope was on just fixed costs.

Introduction

00:33 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode 15 and today my guest is Dr. Lindy Ledohowski, a PhD in English, former tenure track professor, and founder of the ed tech startup EssayJack. Lindy describes the money mindset she developed as a college and graduate student while experiencing boom and bust cycles of income and budgeting for must haves and investments in herself. Lindy narrates how her money mindset has been in concordance or not with how she’s generated income throughout her career, and how it is serving her well now, as a startup founder. She emphasizes that a safety net enables career risk and how she prefers to bet on herself rather than other financial instruments.

01:31 Emily: I’m recording this near the end of March shortly after finishing my 10th webinar for a university client in this month alone. That sets a record for my business in terms of speaking engagement density. I want to send a super sincere and heartfelt thank you to all of the people who have recommended me to their universities and other organizations, particularly in the past year. I shared with you last month that I really wasn’t sure how my business would fare when the pandemic started given that the revenue was so reliant on in-person speaking engagements, but between webinars, individual, and bulk purchases of my tax workshops and the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, my business has actually flourished in the past year, and especially this spring. I know that is in large part due to the recommendations of the graduate students and PhDs who listened to this podcast. I know that because the people who book me tell me so. I really, really appreciate you supporting me in this manner. I’m so happy to be able to provide this podcast to you for free, and it is possible thanks to the products and services I sell to universities and individuals.

Book Giveaway

02:42 Emily: Now it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In April, 2021, I’m giving away, one copy of “Walden on Wheels” by Ken Ilgunas, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for June, 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during April, we’ll have a chance to win a copy of this book. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of April, from all the entries you can find full [email protected]/podcast.

03:22 Emily: The podcast received review this week titled “Customized and Encouraging Info”: “I’ve been interested in personal finance for awhile, but a lot of advice from other sources doesn’t really apply to my unique situation as a graduate student. This podcast, and the online resources on filing taxes as a grad student on a fellowship have been so enlightening and useful/relatable in a way that other sources aren’t. They’ve also helped me to challenge my sometimes limiting mindset about money as a graduate student, and have helped me begin to save and invest more than I thought I’d be able to on my stipend. Definitely recommend for anyone grad school or thinking about entering grad school. This is really important info that we don’t get from our school/programs.”

04:04 Emily: Thank you so much for this review! This reviewer really gets what I’m doing with the podcast and business. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Lindy Ledohowski.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:22 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today. Dr. Lindy Ledohowski. She is the founder of EssayJack. She’s also a PhD. She’s a former faculty member — we’re going to find out all about that. When Lindy and I were preparing for this episode, we realized that she has a super interesting parallel story to her career story, which is the story of how her money mindset has served her very well in some of these stages, not so well in other stages. And it’s a little bit of an interesting flip on what we usually hear. A lot of times we talk about how money mindsets we develop in academia are harmful to our finances. Lindy has found the opposite of that. She’s found some concordance with her money mindset nurtured in graduate school with her success with finances later in life. We’re going to hear all about that. Lindy, thank you so much for joining me today. I’m really pleased to have you on. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

05:15 Lindy: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for that introduction. I am Dr. Lindy Ledohowski. I have an English PhD. Before I was an English professor at the university of Waterloo, I had been a high school English teacher. Then I left full-time teaching and founded, as you say, EssayJack, which is an ed tech software solution in the academic writing space.

Money Mindset in Young Adulthood

05:38 Emily: That’s fantastic. It’s obvious how your business grew out exactly of your career, so fascinating. We’ll get a little bit of that story today, but really I want to focus on this money mindset aspect. What was the money mindset that you were developing in your childhood early experiences with money in your young adulthood?

05:56 Lindy: It’s actually interesting looking back in hindsight, because you don’t know that you’re developing a money mindset when you’re in the middle of it. For me I think it’s best characterized as kind of a boom and bust. All throughout high school and then my undergrad, I certainly taught during the school year. I was a busser on weekends and then I was a waitress and then I would make the majority of my money that had to last throughout the school year in the summer months. When I was a high school student that was all day long babysitting, nine to five, whereas during the school year, it might be a couple of hours after school. And then similarly through undergrad, I relied very heavily on making a lot of tips and making all that money over a full-time summer working gig, and then during the academic year, I would scale back so I could focus on my full-time classes.

06:51 Lindy: That really gave me an approach to finances that was like, make as much as you can in as short a time as possible, and then budget that surplus over a long sort of drought period. That really started to get shaped for me in my teen years and then into my undergrad. I had my first job was as a paper route when I was 11, and then it was, as I say, babysitting, and then into the hospitality industry and customer service.

07:25 Emily: Now I can see how that kind of pattern, which I think is not uncommon for young adults and people who are still in their schooling years, but I can see how that pattern could divorce in your mind work from money in the sense that you’re doing a lot of work all the time, which is the work of being in school — the classes and so forth — but sometimes you’re not doing that kind of work and you’re doing the kind of work that makes money and that’s that period of intensity of earning the money and then spreading it out through the rest of the time. As an entrepreneur, I can see how that separation of what is work for money and what is work that just has to be done to further your general development, how that can help you later on, but you developed that early on while you were still in the cycle of the academic year.

08:11 Lindy: Yeah, absolutely. You put it really well that it made that separation between work and money. And then also I think it gave me a sense of budgeting through scarcity. And also I’m not really counting on financing for things because I very early was training myself to not think about, “Oh, I have a stable monthly salary, which I will then allocate for various purchases.” I always had to make a bunch of money and then buy the thing, whatever that thing is that I wanted.

Money Management and Budgeting Strategies through Scarcity

08:56 Emily: It’s so interesting that you use that term, budgeting through scarcity. And I think when we were prepping for this, you also use the term hoarding — hoarding money during the good times and eking it out during the leaner times to get through that. What kinds of strategies were you using during those early years? How did you budget for when your income was much lower or like zero versus when that income was much higher?

09:19 Lindy: One of the interesting things, and I don’t know if this is just my own personality traits, but as you focus on developing a money mindset unconsciously, in my case, what that meant is that I very quickly began to prioritize the “must haves” and the “nice to haves” for me. I was never, for instance, really into like clothes or fashion. That wasn’t my thing. I also had an older sister whose best friend was really into fashion, so from the two of them, I could inherit hand me downs and that was more than enough for me. I don’t know if I’m particularly stylish, so I didn’t need to color my hair or all that. Those kinds of things became “nice to have” for me and even in a time when my bank account was very flush, I still never ran out and bought a bunch of clothes or did my hair or things like that.

10:15 Lindy: Whereas, books were always my passion and I could justify also spending some of that money on books because I would think of them as a longer-term investment in my intellectual future. Even if I was buying books as a high school or undergrad student, I always knew that I was going to sort of go on and do more. I loved books and that was sort of investing in myself. Similarly for me a must have, would be say traveling. Interestingly, I had a conversation with my then boyfriend as an undergrad because his attitude towards money was to invest it in financial investments. Whereas if I had a little bit extra, I’d budget a backpacking trip and I always thought, well, I’m investing in myself and how my brain is going to be broadened by different perspectives. I think that came into play in terms of creating a hierarchy of, if I have limited funds in that hoarding and scarcity time, what will I spend it on and what won’t I spend it on?

11:22 Emily: I’m so glad you gave us that insight, because first of all, I’m glad to hear that your “must haves” were not literally just like food and shelter. Of course you took care of that, but had added onto that what you considered to be investments. And it’s so interesting that you were thinking about them that way, even that early on, because as I said earlier, obviously your career has evolved in such a way that probably all those experiences, the books, especially, did contribute to ultimately like your founding of your company and everything. I don’t think that many people at that age think about investing in themselves in those ways, but you did.

12:00 Lindy: I think maybe that’s a personality quirk of my own, or maybe my good fortune. And speaking of good fortune, as you mentioned, I did have a place to live. During my undergrad, I lived at home. The deal with my parents was that I could live at home rent free and so I need to flag that because that’s just a tidbit of good fortune on my part that not everybody shares. Again, back when I was doing undergrad, so that was in the nineties, I was able to make enough money waitressing and saving my tips over the summer that I could afford tuition. And again, that’s a very different financial reality than what people are facing today. That kind of make it all and then put it into your tuition, buy books, and then also the fact that I did have that family help, means that I had a bit of a buffer and it’s fair to recognize that little bit of a buffer that I certainly had.

13:00 Emily: Absolutely. It sounds also then that you didn’t take out debt, at least you haven’t mentioned it so far during those undergrad years.

13:07 Lindy: No, no. And that was actually what the conversation was with that then boyfriend, because he and his parents took out student loans and then he and his parents had a plan for investing that money and making money on the student loans and all that. It was very sophisticated in a way that I didn’t have with my family at all. We didn’t really talk about finances in any sort of concrete way, aside from the “we love you and if you need help, we’ll help you” kind of way, which again, I’m lucky that I had people in my corner, but it wasn’t like a sophisticated financial education in those early days.

13:47 Lindy: In my young twenties, then that boyfriend, and he was the first boy I lived with, we then had to talk about those finances in terms of how we split things up financially in a shared housing. I was really sort of dumbfounded to know that he had this whole other financial reality based on the availability of student loan debt at the time, whereas I just had the neither a borrower nor a lender be. And so if I didn’t have the money, I didn’t spend it, was kind of my approach at the time.

14:23 Emily: Yeah. I like your simpler approach. For the record, for anyone who’s listening, please don’t take out student loans just to invest the money. I do not endorse this approach. It is something I’ve been asked about from time to time and it’s very risky, very, very risky. I’ll just put it that way.

14:39 Emily: That was some of the strategies you were using. What about budgeting at that time? Did you have any particular way that you were doing it, or you just found this sort of natural rhythm of your spending?

14:48 Lindy: A couple of ways. One, I definitely found a kind of natural rhythm to the spending, which is you don’t spend very much and then whatever you have leftover is the surplus for travel or for something else. After my undergrad degree where I was living at home, then I did have a proper job that had a salary and the deal with my parents was I could have one more year at home rent free, so I could sort of get on my feet. I used that to again, sort of boom and bust, to hoard that income so that I could then go and do another degree, and that was my education degree. I was more conscious of budgeting at that time, because I had a really specific target. I want to do a bachelor of education degree. I know that I’m going to have to, at that point, move away, pay for housing, pay for tuition, sort of figure out all of that. I did have a spreadsheet and tracked things, and then once I had a couple of months of the spreadsheet, I could then sort of see, okay, well, typically this is how much I spend on a given month. If I go over that, that’s a problem. And then if I can be competitive with myself and get under that, then that’s great.

16:06 Emily: I see. So you actually had a little like gamification element kind of going on.

16:10 Lindy: Yeah, absolutely. Like self gamification. It was like, can I go lower?

Income Changes and Money Mindset During Graduate School

16:16 Emily: Yeah. And so we’re kind of talking about you mentioned a second bachelor’s degree, but then of course, at some point you went into graduate school and got your PhD as well. Can you talk about how this money mindset served you or didn’t serve you during that time?

16:31 Lindy: As I just mentioned, after the undergrad, then I worked and saved money, did the education degree. Then I worked as a teacher and saved money so that I can go to graduate school. I did a master’s, which was unfunded and then the PhD, which was fully funded. I went straight through for that and I did borrow some money from my dad, at the time to do that unfunded masters, but I had a chunk saved from my education degree. That money mindedness meant that as I went through, one of the things for sure, when I was contemplating a PhD after the masters, and I really loved my master’s degree, which is what made me want to continue on and do doctoral work. But one of the absolute deal breakers was it had to be fully funded and it had to be significantly, fully funded. Not all fully funded PhDs are fully funded equally.

17:29 Lindy: I knew that any university would happily take me as a PhD if I was going to be willing to pay them, but it would be a real vote of confidence if they said, yes, we will take you, and here’s the financial commitment we’re making towards you and your success. I think the fact that was a real must have for me in the application process for the PhD came out of that money mindset that had been developing along the way.

17:58 Lindy: And then in the PhD, similarly, there’s these funding cycles. You apply for grants and scholarships and all of that at one time of the year and then it ups your funding for the subsequent years of the PhD. had five years of guaranteed funding from the university, and I immediately then upped that by various kind of scholarships and grants. And again, then was able to sort of dole out the month by month stuff when I would get a big stipend or a big award in September or January, and then make it last for the subsequent term and semester and top up. I did also do some teaching and TA work and again, that was paid more regularly, so I at least had the combination of some TA work that was paid regularly and then grants and scholarships and fellowships that came in these lump sums.

18:48 Emily: Yeah, so a combination of regular income, irregular income, larger sums, and I really liked that you pointed out the grant cycle and the fellowship applications and all of that, because that’s another example of how you work, like on an application, it’s not immediately for money, but some percentage of them presumably will work out and you can have this cash influx based on that later. For you, I think it was just probably grooving in even further, again, this boom and bust cycle and all the things that you’ve mentioned so far and work not being directly for pay, but sort of indirectly for pay later on.

19:26 Emily: Is there anything else you want to say about those grad school years? How did you come out of them financially? It sounds like you maybe were making a decent amount of money with all these sources combined.

19:37 Lindy: Yeah. Interestingly, I made more money as a grad student than I did as a high school teacher, to be quite honest. And part of that again has to do with taxation, so certain grants and fellowships and scholarships, aren’t taxable in the same way that a teaching income is fully taxed as regular income

19:57 Emily: Actually, we’ll note, because we haven’t said so far, but you’re in Canada. Actually, no, you mentioned the university name, so we know you’re in Canada. But yes, different situation in the States.

20:04 Lindy: Yeah, I was going to say, anything I say about taxes will be specific to the Canadian context. My schooling was in Canada and then my work life has also been principally in Canada. There were certain kind of tax benefits to the way that the graduate funding was set up. Everybody sort of jokes about being a starving student and I still was, but I was less starving as a PhD student than I had been as a full-time school teacher. And again, that’s just because you know, it was early days and I hadn’t sort of stuck with teaching long enough to go up the ranks or anything like that.

20:44 Lindy: The only thing that I will certainly say about my PhD experience from a financial perspective is that even that TA income that was more regular, certainly wasn’t enough to comfortably cover month to month costs. I’ve since read that you’re not supposed to spend more than one third of your income on fixed housing costs. That was never my case. It was often I was spending anywhere from 60 to 90% of what a monthly envelope was on just fixed costs. I got very good at going to every single free wine and cheese on campus and getting food. Any holiday party anybody would in invite me to. I ate a lot of canned goods and pasta, and so if I was invited to somebody’s house, it would be the produce that I’d be eating because that you couldn’t sort of buy in bulk at the beginning of the semester and have it last, whereas you can buy cans of tuna and that’ll last. That gives you a bit of a color on that PhD experience.

21:57 Emily: It also does for you and your budgeting method, I guess. Knowing that you have money in the bank, but eating this way, being this frugal and so forth, knowing that you have to make it last until the next influx comes in. I do think that gives us a good picture.

Post PhD Salary: How Having Steady Cashflow Changed the Money Mindset

22:12 Emily: Now, after your PhD, you had regular employment. You had a salary, maybe not for the first time, but maybe in a different way than you had before in your life. Tell us about that period when you were a professor.

22:26 Lindy: After my PhD, I did a post-doctoral fellowship and again, that was much the same as, as the PhD in terms of lump sums of money. Then I became a tenure track professor. That had full benefits, full salary, all of those sorts of wonderful things. But interestingly, at that point I was then married. My husband is an academic and we had jobs in different cities. And so again, the budgeting became sort of weird because we were now using our two regular salaries to spend on the monthly costs of running two homes. We had two apartments in two different cities and traveling back and forth. Then any surplus I had was on driving or flying to be in the same city as my spouse. However, what I did find in that because that was our experience, I was well-suited to continuing a bit of that boom and bust and spend the money that was surplus on travel to see my spouse.

23:26 Lindy: What was interesting for me is at the time banks were only too willing to give us financing. because we were in two different cities, I had an old 15 year old car, we were going to sell that and buy a new car so that I could safely drive on the highway. And the dealership is like “we can give you this kind of financing because you’re both professors” and I was really uncomfortable with that. We were like, “well, we have our savings, let’s just buy the car.” In hindsight, I don’t know that that was the smartest decision given that cars are depreciating assets.

24:02 Lindy: But again, at the time I was very uncomfortable with this idea of taking on something that was a month to month to month debt, because I hadn’t built up my trust in the system that money would be there month to month to month in the way that I think if you start working at a regular job early and have that continuity over time, you start to have faith that, yeah, even though you might run out of money by the 30th of the month, it rolls over and new money comes in. I, temperamentally, didn’t feel that that was the case, even though, obviously as a professor, that is the case.

24:41 Lindy: So as I say, we made the choice to buy the car outright and again, hoard all of our money and live cheaply in the hopes that we could then save up for a down payment. That’s kind of how that money mindedness — the boom and bust, the hoarding — carried over into the academic job when we were both professors and seemingly could have had a much more regular financial life. We still kind of didn’t.

25:06 Emily: I’m so glad you pointed that out because really we’re talking about whatever it was 10, 15, maybe close to 20 years of this boom and bust cycle developed by the type of income you have with maybe some periodic, yes, you had some regular income, but it was never as much compared to that irregular income. I can totally understand why you didn’t immediately have trust that the salary is going to keep coming in and so forth.

Commercial

25:31 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. The federal annual tax filing deadline was extended to May 17th, 2021, but the federal estimated tax due date remains April 15th, 2021. This is the perfect time of year to evaluate the income tax due on your fellowship or training grant stipend. Filling out the estimated tax worksheet and form 1040ES will tell you how much you can expect your tax liability to be this year and whether you are required to pay estimated tax. Whether you’re required to pay throughout the year or not, I suggest that you start saving for your ultimate tax bill from each paycheck in a dedicated savings account. If you need some help with the estimated tax worksheet, or want to ask me a question, please join my workshop, quarterly estimated tax for fellowship recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers common questions that postbaccs, grad students, and postdocs have about estimate tax, such as what to do when you switch on or off a fellowship in the middle of a calendar year. Go to pfforphds.com/QETax to learn more about and join the workshop. Now, back to our interview.

Transitioning to Entrepreneurship

26L49 Emily: So you’re going along, you have your salary job and everything, but at some point you become inspired to start your company. I’d like for you to talk about the financial aspects of that transition — did you prepare financially before jumping into self-employment or were you already prepared based on the way that you were living? Or these kinds of insights?

27:10 Lindy: Before starting the company that I now head up, which is EssatJack, and that’s an ed tech software solution, I did a couple of years of consulting. So between being a professor and starting a tech startup, I was like, “okay, this living in two cities as two professors is untenable. All of the money that we’re making, we’re spending to rent two apartments or to travel back and forth to see each other, and I just don’t see this being a sustainable future for us. Something’s got to give, and the something that’s got to give is I’ll give up this job and figure out what comes next.

27:45 Lindy: I was very lucky. Again, I secured a grant — this is apparently just how I roll. I get the chunk of money and then decide what to do with it. So I secured a grant which gave me the confidence to take a year’s no pay leave from my job as a professor, as a kind of get the first toe in the water of quitting without actually quitting first. I had this grant, I was working on a conference in a symposium and ultimately it then became a book. But what I also did during that time was I started consulting. I started taking consulting projects just to see what can I do and then that gave me a certain confidence in being able to charge for my services.

28:27 Lindy: You made a really good point earlier on in the podcast about how my mindset divorced labor from financial remuneration, which I think is absolutely spot on. The time as a consultant remarried those two things together for me, because it made it very clear that my time was worth money, so I had to a, charge appropriately for it and not do free work on the gamble that it would pay off later in the way that say applying for grants and things like that is that kind of a gamble. Secondly, I also ran into like a scalability problem. There are only so many hours in the day that as a single sole proprietor consultant, you can work. At some point you max out and you can’t charge for 27 hours a day worth of work. That was ultimately how I got to the end of my time as a consultant is that I just sort of was like, there’s more work than hours in the day for me to do it, so I need to now start thinking about what’s the next step? Do I grow out the consultancy or do I think of something else? That’s kind of how that money mindset of the boom and bust carried over into consulting and I really did have to change my approach to labor and finance and more closely see every minute I worked as having to be worth money.

29:56 Emily: Yeah, I see. You had in that narrative that you didn’t officially leave your job, but you took unpaid leave for a year, testing the waters, after securing a grant as well. I’m wondering, obviously I think anyone can see that your life at that time with your husband was untenable, that’s not a long-term solution, but I think a lot of other people still in the face of something like that of there’s this really big thing about my job that’s unsatisfactory, they still stay in it maybe longer than you did. I would like for you to just speak briefly about this transition and how you decided to do that unpaid leave versus just leaving it right away. Did that make it easier taking the half step out? And also, is there anything that you wish you had done differently in that transition from the full-time position to the consulting?

30:48 Lindy: I think the first part of the answer is profoundly gendered. Many female professionals in the Academy and other professional fields find their careers just taking off at the time where they biologically, if they want to have children, they have to. That’s the window, you kind of have to do it. And that was the case for me. I was in my early thirties as a professor and my husband and I, we hadn’t yet decided whether or not we had wanted kids. It had always been like a “maybe one day kind of conversation. But being professors in two different cities and the ages that we were made it very important for us to get some clarity around, well, do we even want to have a family because if we do, that’s something that we’re really going to have to get on sooner rather than later. What came out of that conversation was the recognition that while we still didn’t know if we wanted kids or not, we knew that we didn’t want that decision to be made by circumstance. We didn’t want to fall into not having kids because we lived in two different cities and couldn’t figure out how to do it in that context, in a way that would make us both happy and satisfied as parents or as a family. That I think helped because it was like, well, this is a huge life decision and it could happen to us by circumstance and you can never know what that feeling is going to be like down the road, if you regret it. And I certainly didn’t want to be in that situation.

32:28 Lindy: Taking the leave kind of helped, as I say, sort of give me the confidence that I could actually make money outside of the Academy, which was my big fear. I was like, “Well, this is what I know. This is what I’m good at. This is what I can do. And I like it and all the rest of it.” Being able to sort of throw my hat over the fence, so to speak, as a metaphor for then you got to go in and get your hat, meant that I then began to feel confident that I could pitch for consulting gigs. I could get them. I could do the work. It could be rewarding. I could get paid. And then that also gave us the opportunity to live in the same city, to think about whether or not we wanted a family. In the end we decided we didn’t want kids. We have a cat. She’s amazing. But I’m very happy with that because it was a choice that we made as opposed to one day we woke up and realized that that that window had closed. So that, I think, as I say, the first part of that answer is a profoundly gendered answer.

Money Management Shifts during Self-Employment

33:28 Emily: What I found really interesting in there is that, okay, so you’ve, you stated that this period of consultancy, tied your time and earning back together. Your husband during that time, I think still was salaried. Is that right? So you still had that part of your finances was salaried. How did that change your money management or did it? Were you starting to trust the salary system or were you still like hoarding and then making these investments?

33:58 Lindy: I was definitely still hoarding. As soon as I left my job as a professor and started as a consultant, I definitely got back into the hoarding mindset, partially because as a consultant, it is also very boom and bust. You have periods of intense work and then periods where you don’t necessarily have the work or you’re calling around and trying to get work, so you need to kind of have enough that you’re carrying yourself through the lean times. Particularly at the beginning, you have no confidence that the lean time will end. You do one job and then it’s lean time and you think, Oh my God, I’m never going to make money again. And then you get another job. And then over time, you start to feel a bit more confident that even in a moment when there happens to be a break, that that’s temporary, but it takes a while to sort of get through that. And every time there’s a bit of a break or a lull in projects, at least for me, I was like, “Oh my God, I’ll never work again and I’m a failure and this is terrible and I’m never going to make any money.” I certainly hoarded quite a fair bit.

35:06 Lindy: And then again, because we didn’t know in the early days, did we want to have kids? I wasn’t paying into any benefits package at that point as a consultant, I was just myself. I knew there’d be no maternity leave, so whatever the next step was going to be, I needed to make sure that we had saved and had a buffer. And again, just as I flagged, my early years, I was very lucky to have family support. I had a home where I could live and, and there were financial resources there to support me, as an adult I was very lucky to have a spouse who had a full-time job. Again, I’ve had the ability to take probably some greater risks because of that backstop.

35:56 Lindy: Other people who are in similar situations to me may also think about one person covering the costs and one person taking the risks, because I think that’s a reasonable way for two people in a financial partnership, a marriage, to plan things out. My dad always said, if you can live on 50% of what you make, so one person’s salary and bank the other, you get much farther ahead than if you spend a hundred percent, month to month to month. Again, the finances of dad, the boomer generation are obviously different from us, but I did have that message in the back of my mind for sure.

36:40 Emily: Yeah. That is a really interesting way to put it and quite true that a safety net is maybe not strictly necessary, but can make it easier and more psychologically palatable to take a risk like that.

36:55 Emily: Okay, now you’re in this period of you did this consulting work for a while, but you mentioned earlier that you wanted to scale, ultimately, and so that’s where the business, the software solution comes in. Also, to today, is your husband still in that academic position?

37:09 Lindy: Yeah. He’s still a full-time tenured law professor and he loves it, and will probably continue doing it until one day he’ll be an emeritus professor, I think.

Interplay Between Lindy’s Money Mindset and Entrepreneurship

37:22 Emily: Okay. Another question we have here is after doing the consulting and starting the business, did you start to realize that there were some mismatches between your financial mindset and how the system worked? We talked about the system of being a salaried employee earlier in terms of your employer, but what about the system of, as you mentioned earlier of financing for instance, or you’ve also brought up taxes?

37:46 Lindy: Yeah, so really interestingly, as I say, as a consultant, I was doing that hoarding. Initially because it was like, well, maybe if we want to have a kid, we want to have a buffer. And then there were also things like, well, maybe we want to buy a house, so we need a down payment. And then as I started to think, okay, well, let’s get away from a service-based business and start thinking about a product-based business, we know we’re going to need to have some savings to put into that. All of those considerations required having some kind of chunk of money to allocate towards them.

38:19 Lindy: Then it was as we started to refine those things — okay, now we’re going to buy a house. We thought we were in such a great position because neither of us have student loan debts, we have some savings. Then when we started house hunting, we realized actually what we could afford was kind of not what we thought we wanted, so that was a bit of an eye opener to realize that while we, I think very blithely and naively thought, “Oh, well, we’re sort of trundling towards a middle-class life,” we weren’t, and that was surprising. The houses we saw in the neighborhood we were looking at, which we thought were standard middle-class-y, “this is us”, we’re utterly priced out of that. That again was one of those moments where I was like, well, I need to work a lot harder and save a lot more money so that we can sort of buy a nice house or whatever the case may be.

39:17 Emily: To clarify there, was it that you weren’t making enough money to afford that kind of house or was it that the lending system didn’t recognize your income as contributing towards a mortgage of the size needed?

39:30 Lindy: It was essentially that the mortgage that we needed to secure would be based on my husband’s income, not mine, because I didn’t have…and again, you need say as a consultant, self-employed, you need years of income that you can then show and they still only take a percentage of that, that they count towards your overall income to debt ratio. That meant we were in a much smaller position. The only way to up that was we had to make and save more money, so that even though the overall borrowing amount, the debt amount would remain the same, we’d have a bigger down payment, and so the actual house purchase increased. So we paused that house hunt and I scurried around and tried to make a bunch more money so that we could have more. That’s what got us thinking and that carried over into, we were like, “Hey, I need to move from a service based business to a product based business.”

40:35 Lindy: It got me thinking about income to debt ratios in a way that was entirely new and my money mindset, which is very boom and bust is helpful. Particularly now in sort of tech and startup, you may have to spend a fair bit of money at the beginning to build the thing before the thing that you’re building is actually going to start generating revenue. There’s a chunk of time where you’re spending money, but not making any because you haven’t built the thing yet. But it also got me into dealing with traditional lending institutions. In a tech company, there is no collateral. If I want to start a restaurant, I go to a bank and I have the business plan and I’m like, “okay, I want to borrow some money and either rent this restaurant or buy this restaurant or whatever,” and there’s stuff that the bank can take back if that business fails.

41:31 Lindy: Whereas if I say, okay, here’s my business plan, here’s the product I want to build, it’s this technological product and it’s going to be built in the cloud. There is no hard good. There’s nothing a bank can take, it’s all intellectual property. While there’s a lot of value in that intellectual property, it’s not value that somebody else really can monetize in your absence. I was kind of naive about that. I thought, “Oh, well, you know, we’re building this thing. There’s this need, both educators and students need help with academic writing and there are essay mills out there where people are plagiarizing and cheating, and we are actually providing a real viable, technical solution that’s pedagogically sound, that’s built by a couple of professors, all of that. But it means that you can’t necessarily go to banks and get that funded, unless you’re willing to say, “Oh, and you can take my house if this fails.” It’s really sort of getting comfortable with a fair degree of financial risk.

42:38 Emily: I’m thinking this is where venture capital comes in. Is that something you have pursued or are pursuing?

42:44 Lindy: Yeah. We’re right now in the middle of a financing raid. We held off on venture capital for a very, very long time. We had revenues and savings and bootstraps and friends and family and loans and any grants. As I say, I’m the queen of getting grants. Any kind of, um, funding we could get without external investors in the early days, that’s what we pursued. VCs can be fantastic, but there’s also a risk in the sense that if you get them in too early, they are driving a particular business model for your business, and for us, in the early days, I wasn’t sure exactly what our business model is. Academic writing — is that something that’s going to go viral? Do we want it to go viral? Or is it going to be like a meat and potatoes business where you sign up, you get a subscription, it serves your needs while you’re a student writer, and then you move on to the rest of your life, being able to think and write critically because of the skills that you’ve learned. Or do we need to lock you in like Facebook and keep you forever?

43:52 Lindy: I was very wary of inviting other people into the company early on, lest they derail what is…My passion is to create an ethical business that is viable and that provides a real solution and isn’t a gimmick, and isn’t just out there to steal user’s data and sell it to the highest bidder. But of course, many VCs, that’s what they’re looking for. In the early days, I felt our bargaining power would be quite low, because it’d be like, “here’s my idea” and they’d be like, “well, your idea is unproven.” Whereas now, as we’re going out to investors, like, “okay, we’re selling all over the world. We have schools, colleges, and universities. We have individual subscribers. We’ve won a bunch of awards.” We’re in a much more solid position to then say, “Do you VC want to be part of this journey?” As opposed to “do you want to derail and take over the journey yourself?”

44:58 Emily: So fascinating. I’m so glad you gave us that insight. I’m sure there are probably many people in the audience who are thinking in their futures that maybe, VC or startups could be part of that. I’m really excited that you shared that.

Investing in Yourself as a Way of Financial Growth

45:10 Emily: Is there anything else that you want to add about your money mindset that you’ve been developing all these years and your financial life as a founder that we haven’t covered already?

45:19 Lindy: The only thing that I would add is that I think I have been able to take sort of a fair degree of, and I mean, it’s calculated risk, but my calculated risks are always to invest in myself. At earlier times where it was like, I’ll put the time and energy into this grant or this application, now as a startup founder, it’s “I will put the time into developing this content or this product, or pitch decks or financial business models that I’m going to present to lending institutions.” All of that work, which now again, is sort of decoupled from payment in a very specific way. I’m back in the realm where I do a bunch of stuff, and I’m betting that it will pay off in the end. And so being able to do that has always been I’m betting on myself. I’m assuming that if I put any chunk of money I have in a financial institution savings vehicle, that I’ll make small percentages. Whereas if I invest in myself, what I’m gambling on is that I’ll be able to make multiples on that investment. That has developed over time, as I’ve started to think, well, I have the personality type, I’d rather be the one trying really hard, than just handing my money over to the bank and letting an account manager invest in various funds, and I have no insight or understanding on how those work. I’m not a trained financial analyst. I still don’t understand money markets with that degree of specificity. And if I wanted to invest in that, I’d need to then rely on somebody else. Whereas if I invest in myself, I rely on myself. If I take a day off, then that’s my fault if I screw up. Whereas if I work really hard and produce results, I’m the one who benefits from that. That’s the final that I would say, is that I certainly have had to develop the confidence in myself to then bet on myself.

47:35 Emily: Yeah, this is so fascinating. And it is a very different approach from my financial approach, so I’m so glad to have your perspective on the podcast as well, because again, I think this is going to resonate with a certain slice of the audience who wants to be or is the type of entrepreneur that you are. This is really going to resonate with them. And you know, what some other people might be listening and say, I don’t want the life that Lindy has. It’s not for me. I want that salary.

48:00 Lindy: Exactly. That’s the thing that’s so clear is that if you’re going to leave the Academy or leave a stable job, I think you do need to know. If a must have is financial stability and security, then certainly don’t become an entrepreneur. If say you have the backstop of either you’ve got family money or in my case, a spouse with a job or something like that, and you have the sort of weirdo seemingly risk-taker, roll the dice kind of personality, then I think entrepreneurship is really exciting because the relationship between whether you do a good job or not is absolutely connected. Not in a day to day “did I get paid today for my work,” but in the big macro picture. The market, the world at large will tell you whether you did a good job or not.

48:54 Emily: Yes, absolutely. Well, Lindy this has been such a fascinating conversation. One, can you tell people where they can find you, where they can find EssayJack and so forth?

49:04 Lindy: Yeah, so EssayJack is essayjack.com, and then on Twitter and Instagram, it’s @essayjack. For me, I’m @DoctorLindy on both Twitter and Instagram. On Instagram, you’ll just see pictures of my cat, but you’re more than welcome to find me there. And then both on LinkedIn as well.

Best Financial Advice for an Early Career PhD

49:26 Emily: Yeah. Great. And the question that I ask all my guests at the conclusion of our interviews is what is your best financial advice for another early PhD? It can be an emphasis of something that we’ve already touched on in the interview, or it can be something completely different.

49:39 Lindy: The best bit of advice is honestly to keep your debt load as low as possible, like consumer debt load. Ideally at zero, but as low as you possibly can because ultimately if you’re starting from a level position and then earning onwards, whether it’s with a stable job or entrepreneurship, you’re already in the positives going upwards. If you’re already in debt, it is just so hard to start digging your way out. So as much as you can minimize that, that would be my key advice. Learn how to get hand-me-down clothes from your older sister.

50:20 Emily: Yes. I totally totally agree, especially, gosh, for people who are in graduate school and have that lower income. If you have the option to not obligate that future income, please avoid it whenever possible. I totally agree. Well, Lindy, thank you so much for giving us this interview. It was a real pleasure to talk with you and I’m sure the audience found this absolutely fascinating as I did.

50:39 Lindy: It was really great to chat through all of this with you. You unearth things that I’m not aware that I think until I say it.

Listener Q&A: Investing on a Living Wage

Question

50:51 Emily: Now onto the listener question and answer segment today’s question was asked in advance of a live webinar I gave recently for a university client, so it is anonymous. Here is the question: “How much should I invest if I make a living wage?”

Answer

51:08 Emily: Back in season eight, episode seven, I answered a simpler version of this question, which was” what percent of income should be used for investment? In that answer, I gave my overall ideas about what percentage of your gross income should be used to invest for retirement. Now this question specifies that the person makes a living wage. So does my general answer from the previous question change at all, knowing that this person makes a living wage?

51:37 Emily: Living wage is sort of a general term, but I like to refer to the living wage database from MIT, livingwage.mit.edu. That living wage is calculated by looking at how much money a single person or a family spends on average in a variety of different necessary budgeting categories.

51:58 Emily: Let’s say you’re a single person and you’re earning the living wage for a single person in some given area of the country. What that means is that if you are an average spender across all of these different categories, you would not spend any of your wage on discretionary expenses or saving. All of it would go towards those necessary expenses.

52:21 Emily: The first way I can answer this question is if you’re only making a living wage, it’s okay if you’re not investing, I mean, of course I want you to be investing or saving or working on debt repayment or whatever your goal is, but given how much you’re being paid and how much the cost of living is in your area, that may not be feasible for you. I want you to give yourself some grace, if you are not able to invest right now, or you’re not able to invest as much as I talked about in that previous answer.

52:50 Emily: Now, let’s go a step deeper with this. I just mentioned that the living wage is based on averages. You do not have to spend an average amount of money in these various categories. The big, big one that goes into this is on housing expense, so again, if you’re a single person, the living wage calculator that I referenced assumes that you will live on your own. Just by making the one choice to live with a flatmate, instead of by yourself, you’ve already radically reduced your spending compared to what the living wage thinks you should be spending in probably your biggest expense area, overall. That one choice alone, even if you’re average in every other category might free up enough money for you to be able to spend on some discretionary expenses and start investing.

53:39 Emily: You don’t have to do this just with housing. In every one of these necessary expense categories that go into the living wage, you can strive to spend below that level. And if you did that across all these areas, you would free up quite a bit of cash flow to go towards other financial purposes. So that’s my answer. If you are making a living wage, you “should” be investing anywhere from 0% up to the amounts I talked about in that previous answer of 10% of your gross income, 15 or 20% of your gross income, depending on your age when you start investing.

54:13 Emily: But I want to leave you with one final thought, which is have a plan to make more than the living wage. Whether that is by finish up your graduate program and moving on to a postdoc or another type of job. Whether that’s increasing your income in some other way in the meantime, before you can make that career leap, earning more is the other way to circumvent this problem on investing when you only make a living wage.

54:38 Emily: Thank you so much to anonymous for submitting this question. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

54:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest, and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list serve, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt, repayment and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe through that list. You’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. Music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC podcast, editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

A Low-Cost Lifestyle Can Be Both Necessary and Enjoyable During Grad School

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Trevor Hedberg, who completed his PhD in philosophy at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville in 2017. His academic year stipend was $15,000 throughout graduate school, yet he finished with about $35,000 in savings. Emily and Trevor discuss the money mindset and financial strategies that enabled Trevor to save even on this low stipend, including his willingness to apply for any possible extra funding and conduct frugal experiments.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

low cost grad student lifestyle

Teaser

00:00 Trevor: Don’t fall into that self-fulfilling prophecy. Don’t just assume that your destiny, as a humanities PhD, is to live paycheck to paycheck. It doesn’t have to be that way for everybody.

Introduction

00:15 Emily: Welcome to The Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode 14, and today my guest is Dr. Trevor Hedberg, who completed his PhD in Philosophy at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville in 2017. His academic year stipend was $15,000 throughout graduate school. Yet, he finished with about $35,000 in savings. We discussed the money mindset and financial strategies that enabled Trevor to save, even on this low stipend, including his willingness to apply for any possible extra funding and conduct frugal experiments. Have you heard about the IRS pushing back the federal tax filing and payment deadline? By the time you listen to this, it would have happened a couple of weeks back. The new deadline for filing your federal tax return and paying any remaining tax due is now May 17th, 2021. I hope that by now, your state will have made up its mind about whether to extend its deadline as well.

01:21 Emily: So, check on that. Please note, however, that the federal deadline for making the quarter one 2021 estimated tax payment on your fellowship, if you’re required to, remains April 15th. And of course, you need to check with your state as well. In response to this extension, I added live Q&A call times to How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (And Understand It, Too!). If you join the workshop now, you’ll be invited to any and all of the remaining Q&A calls, which will take place on April 10th, May 2nd, and May 15th. You can learn more about and join the workshop at pfforphds.com/taxworkshop. I hope to see you inside.

Book Giveaway Contest

02:08 Emily: Now, it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In April 2021, I’m giving away one copy of Walden on Wheels by Ken Ilgunes, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for June 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during April will have a chance to win a copy of this book. Walden on Wheels is a memoir about student loan debt, if you can believe it, and the steps the author took to get out and stay out of it. Although I haven’t read it yet, the book has been on my radar since its publication because of the extremes the author went to to avoid taking out student loan debt while he was a graduate student at Duke, which is my Alma mater. I’m really looking forward to this one. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of April from all the entries. You can read full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Trevor Hedberg.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:23 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Trevor Hedberg. I’m really delighted to have him on. He is now out of his PhD, but he’s going to be telling us about how he managed his finances during graduate school, which as a slight departure from many of the other interviews we’ve had, Trevor was in a humanities field, philosophy, and he had a lower stipend. So if you are in the audience and have been tired of listening to interviews with people who have had much higher siphons than you did during graduate school, this is the one for you. So yeah, Trevor, thank you so much for joining me for this episode.

03:55 Trevor: Sure, Emily. Thanks for having me.

03:57 Emily: And would you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

04:00 Trevor: Sure. So, my present position, I’m a postdoc at the Ohio State University situated in Columbus. I’ve got a joint appointment with the Center for Ethics and Human Values in the College of Pharmacy. My two main responsibilities are coordinating Center for Ethics and Human Values events. Right now we’re doing webinars because of the whole COVID thing. And I’m teaching bioethics courses to students in the College of Pharmacy. I also do some of my own research in areas of applied ethics.

Length of Time and Stipend in Grad School

04:26 Emily: Yeah, that sounds fantastic. Great kind of postdoc work to have, I think. Okay, so let’s go back to the grad school years. Tell us what years were you in grad school for?

04:36 Trevor: I was in grad school for a while. I started at the University of Tennessee in fall 2010, and I picked up a master’s degree on my way to the PhD and I got the PhD in spring of 2017.

04:48 Emily: Okay. Actually, that doesn’t sound that long to me.

04:52 Trevor: It is about average for humanities PhDs. So it’s like, I don’t feel bad, but when I think back I’m like, man, that was a seven-year chunk of my life, you know, that’s a while.

05:03 Emily: Yeah, it is. My husband also took seven years to finish his PhD and he’s in a bio kind of field. So, it can take a while. Okay. So, what was your stipend during that time? Or if it ranged, maybe just give us the range.

05:15 Trevor: The base stipend for the time that I was in the program, so if you had a standard teaching assistantship package, didn’t do any summer teaching, just fall assignments, spring assignment, was $15,000.

05:26 Emily: And were you at that the whole time, or did you ever get above that?

05:29 Trevor: My first year I had an introductory like one-year fellowship, which reduced my teaching responsibilities to half, well you’re normally at half-time, it reduced it to quarter-time. And I also got like a lot of extra money, which is kind of weird, right? You get paid a bunch of extra money for doing less work, but that’s, you know, why it’s a fellowship. It’s supposed to give you time to work on research. So for that semester, I made around 20,000, $21,000 something like that.

05:58 Emily: Yeah. This is a note for any prospective rising graduate students in the audience that you can get an offer letter and your first year it can look nice and rosy. Oftentimes fellowships are given to help people, you know, transition into grad school or whatever, but you need to be asking about years two plus, because I hope that you were aware that that was a, you know, a short-term thing, but some people may not be aware just looking at that first year.

06:21 Trevor: Yeah. So actually, my situation’s the opposite. I got admitted without having that fellowship and I applied for it under the supervision of a faculty member after they’d already admitted me to the program and then I got it. So it was a bonus on top of my initial offer. So I did not get, you know, deceived or something.

Finances at the Beginning and End of Grad School

06:40 Emily: Good. Yeah, I’m glad to hear that. Okay. So base stipend $15K, a little bit extra in one year, but that was basically what was going on. And so, over that seven-year period, overall, how did your finances end up going? Like where were you financially when you started? Where were you financially when you finished?

06:57 Trevor: I went to Knoxville with a little bit, somewhere between five and $6,000, just kind of a nest egg that had been given to me by parents and other relatives and so on during undergrad and I just had not spent that much of it. And I was able to, without taking out any additional loans or anything, I had some loans from undergrad. I didn’t add to them at all during grad school, but I was able to leave graduate school and go and move to Tampa, Florida with between 35 and $40,000 in my bank account. I was also able to purchase a new car while I was, I didn’t really want to, but my Mitsubishi Lancer was totaled out in a freak hailstorm. And it happens, I guess, in April of 2011. And so I wound up leasing a car for a while and then buying it at the end of that, I ended up getting a Hyundai Elantra. But that was, I got some money from the insurance company for like the payout from the Lancer. But it was, you know, that was still a sizable expense that I had to cover in the long-term.

08:03 Emily: Yeah. I mean, the numbers that you just threw out, I mean, having 35 or $40,000 in savings, that’s two years of what you were earning during that seven-year period, plus buying the car on top of that. That’s quite surprising to me and obviously probably a motivating reason why you came on the podcast because somehow you were able to do that. And we want to hear about how on that lower stipend, right? So kind of like let’s dig into that. Why did you end grad school with so much savings? Was it an intentional thing that you set out to do? Or was it just a happenstance thing based on, you know, your personality or something?

Ending Grad School with Savings

08:39 Trevor: One of the few pieces of financial advice that I got going into graduate school in philosophy is whatever you do, don’t take out any loans en route to your degree because the employment prospects in the humanities, and philosophy included, are just so uncertain. There’s, you know, every job has hundreds of qualified applicants and you may apply for a hundred jobs, but the odds are still very uncertain as to whether you’ll actually wind up with employment at the end of it. So the idea is don’t take out a ton of money for, you know, for a career that might not pan out. And a lot of what happened just kind of resulted from being very steadfast in doing what I could to minimize my expenses and to try to save where I could and also apply for as much extra money as I could get.

09:28 Trevor: I mentioned the first year of fellowship, I also got a couple of summer dissertation fellowships, which were just basically extra money because people thought your dissertation project was cool. Did some summer teaching, which paid very well Tennessee relative to the amount of extra work. And when I traveled to conferences or did events like that, I always put in my, you know, travel reimbursement requests and things like that. And just over a seven-year period of time, these kinds of small, you know, savings or these extra little bundles of cash that you happen upon, it just adds up over time.

10:03 Emily: So at kind of the root of this is you being really realistic about job prospects. And I assume also the possibility of having a lapse of income, right? Like, while you’re job searching. And so having that kind of, let’s say one to two years of, you know, living expenses in the bank when you finished is a hedge to help you pursue the career that you want. Is that a fair characterization?

10:28 Trevor: Yeah. The other thing I was cognizant of is that once I was out of grad school, I’d have to start repaying student loans. And so I wanted to be in a position where, you know, if I’m in fact unemployed, I can float while making loan payments successfully for a while, you know, long enough to if it requires going a non-academic career route, so be it, whatever. But you don’t want to be stuck in that situation where you’re living paycheck to paycheck, then you’re not getting any more paychecks. Now, student loans are coming due and you’re in a really tough spot.

10:59 Emily: Yeah. So really it’s about like financial flexibility in a sense, and being able to meet your obligations, even if you haven’t landed the ideal job yet.

11:10 Trevor: Yeah, I think that’s fair to say.

Summer Funding Strategies

11:10 Emily: Okay. So you mentioned a few different ways that you increased your income during graduate school, such as by pursuing summer funding and summer jobs. I’m wondering, did you have funding in some way or another every summer? Or were there some summers where you were unfunded?

11:26 Trevor: So the first two summers I was there I did summer teaching, and summer classes paid very well. They were about $4,000 which I was offered to adjunct some classes at community colleges. Like I would be getting paid less than half of that. So I turned down those instances, because that’s too much. I think that’s too much time and energy for not enough pay. But four grand for, you know, five, six weeks to teach a summer course was a pretty good deal. One summer I had a research assistantship that I think paid between $2,500 and $3,000 where I was basically helping a professor edit a book that he was putting together. And then there were two summers where I had a dissertation fellowship, which was around the same amount of money as teaching a summer class, but you’re supposed to just be working on your dissertation during that time. So there were two summers in there where I didn’t have any extra income, but that’s still pretty good. Five, you know, five of those seven summers, I managed to add something to what I was getting.

12:31 Emily: I was just thinking, based on your kind of sort of defensive posture towards financial planning and saving that, were you thinking like every year I need to be prepared financially for an unfunded summer? If money comes in, if I get work, that’s a bonus. But were you confident that you, and, you know, there were two summers where that was the case. So were you using your cash to fund, you know, your living expenses through those periods?

12:54 Trevor: I didn’t have any trouble. The amount of money that it seemed to cost to live in Knoxville, Tennessee, where I was living and with what I was doing, was roughly $12,000 a year. [Note: It was actually closer to $14.4K.] So I didn’t really seem to have, there was no danger of if I didn’t have money in the summer that like it was going to be, you know, I was going to take a loss in the year.

Frugal Living Tips for Grad Students

13:18 Emily: Gotcha. $12,000 per year, not bad. Do you have any you know, sort of frugal living tips for the listeners? And I’d really love to hit, for sure the big three expenses for grad students, which are housing, transportation, and food.

13:34 Trevor: Yeah. So the housing in Knoxville is really good. I was able to live in a pretty comfortable, not quite 600 square-foot, I think it was around 600 square-foot, one bedroom, one bathroom apartment for right at $500 a month. That included some, but not all utilities. Transportation-wise, you know, I got that new car. I didn’t have any car payments for almost the first year of grad school. And then I had around payments for around $300 a month once I did have a car again. So that right there is 800 bucks. I said it was around $1,200. I think groceries came out to a little bit, like $200 to $250 a month, give or take. And there were utility expenses, right? So I got a cell phone. You got to pay for gas.

14:24 Trevor: I had a very unusual like cable internet situation because I eventually just got so tired of Comcast because they just rate-hiked ludicrously. And after they did that enough times, I just said, no, I’m done. And just, and I had a period where I didn’t have any internet or television at my apartment, which was an interesting six months. When you’re basically doing all your, now, now during the remote learning period we’re in right now, that would not be doable, but this was a different time. You know, a simpler time where you could have all your internet access on campus and it was okay. So just on average, this whole situation came out to around $1,200. I will say, I wasn’t living like an extremely miserly existence. I was still, you know, it’s not like my apartment was destitute or that I had no material possessions. I still enjoyed the same amount of video games the average person in his twenties nowadays probably enjoyed. I would say that there were certain things that I didn’t do as much as some grad students might. I certainly wasn’t like going to bars frequently. I was eating out on special occasions, but not very often otherwise. So, there were some sacrifices, but I do want to stress I don’t think that it was unbearable.

15:41 Emily: Yeah. You know, in what you’re saying, I’m reflecting on my own time in graduate school as well and thinking about how we did eventually, my husband and I, did eventually get into a rhythm of just kind of simple living, you know, relatively low costs. We were okay with the fixed expenses we had. Yeah, the going out expenses weren’t too much. By about halfway through grad school. We had found friends, we love to hang out with who also wanted to socialize in a low-cost manner that didn’t require us, you know, going out all the time. We would just hang out at each other’s homes and stuff. And so we just kind of settled into what I felt was a very satisfactory, but also pretty low cost, sort of lifestyle. It sounds like what you were doing was similar. Were there any other, you might say discretionary expenses that you did engage in? You haven’t mentioned travel so far.

16:29 Trevor: Oh, so yeah, I did go back. My hometown is in Topeka, Kansas, so I did go back about twice a year to visit. Usually, my parents were willing to cover the flight back. As far as travel to conferences and things like that. It was very rare for me to pay for hotel rooms and other things because I would always apply for travel reimbursement. So I did go to a fair amount of conferences. I don’t know what the average would be over grad school, but I had, you know, 13, 14 conferences on the CV by the time I was on the job market, like at the end. But I didn’t generally have trouble getting reimbursed, provided you go through the actual administrative channels and you show that you actually did present at that conference, you know, show the receipts and all that stuff.

17:12 Trevor: So, that wasn’t really a huge obstacle for me. I suppose if someone, if you were an international student for example, and you’ve got to go abroad to go back home to visit, that would be a more significant expense. There were also some, you know, not all TA assistantships include like health insurance, which was something that I had through my assistantship. So, that’s an extra expense I didn’t mention that I didn’t have to pay. And when you’re making so little money, your taxes are very low. They’re not nothing, but usually like the income tax that was withheld would usually be much greater than what I actually owed. So if anything, I’d be getting a check from the IRS at some point.

17:52 Emily: And there’s no state tax in Tennessee, right?

17:55 Trevor: That’s true as well. Yeah. No state income tax.

Money Mindset Developed in Grad School

17:58 Emily: Yeah. So, you know, we just talked about sort of having a satisfactory but low cost existence. What was the money mindset that you developed, by the end of graduate school, regarding where happiness comes from?

18:11 Trevor: Well, I saw some graduate students, like some of my peers, who lived even more miserly than I did. And I sort of realized there were certain limits. Like there were apartments I could have gone to in Knoxville that had much lower rent than even the $500 I was paying, for example. But there were certain thresholds below which I wasn’t willing to go to save money. So there was an extent to which I did, you know, it wasn’t just save money at all costs. There was a certain amount of prioritizing my own personal satisfactions. But I also think that there were certain things that just, I was able to live without too much trouble. I mean, cable television was a great example. I grew up with cable television and when I didn’t have it, I just didn’t care. It didn’t really make that much of a difference.

19:01 Trevor: If anything, I was just glad that I wasn’t seeing commercials all the time. Now, the internet was different. That six months without internet access was kind of rough. That was an experiment that was probably worth doing. But, never again, right? Like always going to have internet whatever it goes for. But there were lots of things like that that I just kind of tested and experimented with to see what I could do without and what I needed. If you test enough things, pretty quickly, you hone in on what’s important to you and what’s worth spending money on and what’s not. And I think that process is really important when your money is very tight.

Frugal Experimentation

19:37 Emily: I love that point. Absolutely. I use the same word, experimentation, when I talk about, well, I use the term frugal experimentation. So, sometimes if people are, you know, in my audience, looking for ways to decrease their expenses, I’ll say, you know, conduct a 30 or 60-day frugal experiment where you try out a new tip you found. You’re not sure at the outset if it’s going to be right for you. One, you know, you have to sort of evaluate, like you were just saying, like, what impact does it have on your quality of life? If it’s negative, or maybe it could be positive. And how does that compare to the actual savings that you realize? And you can’t really know until you actually try something out. So I’m really pleased that, you know, you also came to this idea of experimentation and it sounds like you did it in multiple areas. Do you want to give us some other examples, aside from the cable and internet one, of some other experiments you did?

20:27 Trevor: So, some of it had to do with technology upgrades in general. So, I was one of the last people, for example, to buy like a smartphone. Because I actually really liked the model of phones where you had the little slide-out keyboard. So they were really good with texting, but not so great for like the web browsing and other stuff that we do on them now. That was one where I was perfectly content to not technologically upgrade for as long as possible. So, you know, once that phone was paid off, I just had that phone for a really long time. And that bill was lower as a result. I wasn’t able to keep my PC around for all of grad school. When I was working on my dissertation, the motherboard finally died, but I mean, I’d had that PC I was using for seven or eight years. And it had been through heavy, heavy usage. So that was another thing that like, I didn’t need to replace. I think that nowadays, especially, we’re so prone to just want to upgrade, upgrade, upgrade when a lot of times the upgrades are marginal and just cost us more money and don’t actually make our lives much better. Those are the obvious other examples I can think of.

21:31 Emily: I have one that I remember from grad school really calling out as a frugal experiment on the blog that I was keeping at the time, which was no longer using our clothes dryer or rather using only for like towels, like that kind of thing. And we were just hanging, drying you know, shirts and all the rest of the stuff that would dry pretty easily in that manner. And I wasn’t that diligent to like, actually look at the difference that made on our electricity bill, and I’m sure it made some kind of small difference. But yeah, that was just something that we like tried out, weren’t super wedded to whether we would keep it around or not, and ended up doing it for a couple of years. Because it was really no more difficult, and again, you know, we weren’t running the dryer, so that probably helps some.

22:08 Emily: So I remember that as being one of our frugal experiments I’m also really big on, this is just like my personality type, I’m big on like rules. Like I love boundaries, like things being black and white and not gray. So for instance, one rule, you mentioned this earlier, but one rule we made eventually in graduate school was that we would only eat out for social occasions and we would not eat out for convenience. Because we noticed that was a pattern going on for us, that we would be, Oh, I’m staying late on campus. I’m just going to grab dinner from whatever fast food joint. And so just that wasn’t really bringing a lot of satisfaction, just convenience, into our lives. So we decided to cut that out and I made a rule for myself. Okay. No more eating out for convenience, only with other people. I wonder, I don’t know if your personality is the same way, but did you end up having sort of a set of rules, financial-related rules, for yourself by the end of graduate school?

How Low (ºF) Can You Go?

22:56 Trevor: Real quick, before I answer that question, there is one other one that comes to mind because you just mentioned like the clothes-drying thing. One of the other things I experimented with was what temperature I could stand to live at. So just adjusting the AC or the heat. And Knoxville has really good weather for that because there’s about a six-month period of the year where you really don’t even need the AC or the heat on at all. The temperature outside is mild enough that it just kind of self regulates. But that was one thing. So, if you need 70 degree summers, so to speak, inside, that’s going to cost you a lot of money in Knoxville, Tennessee. If you’re willing to satisfice for, you know, 76 or 78, that could be $50 on your utility bill at the end of the month. That’s not an exaggeration. Found that out in the first, like couple of months in the summer that I was there. So.

23:50 Emily: That’s a great example. Thank you.

23:53 Trevor: Now, your question about other rules. I’m not necessarily, I like the idea behind setting, like these kinds of rules and rigid boundaries, but I often find that you always wind up being put in a weird situation where you’re tempted to make an exception.

24:08 Emily: Travel is my exception to the no eating out for convenience rule. Yeah. It’s going to happen when you travel sometimes.

Forming Good Financial Habits

24:14 Trevor: Yeah. So I like to think of it maybe in terms of, instead of rules, like habits. Like things that you kind of just try to motivate yourself to do regularly, but not in a sort of rigid ironclad sort of way. So there were quite a few habits that I developed. A few of them I’ve already mentioned, like I always applied for money that I thought I had a chance to get. I always tried to, one of the big habits I developed was not auto paying very many bills and always taking the time to like manually manage what I was doing. Just so that I was more cognizant of the money that was being spent so that, you know, a $70 bill doesn’t just go by and you know, just the system pays it and then, you know, it’s handled.

25:04 Trevor: Nowadays, I do auto pay a fair amount of stuff because I just have more bills and more expenses. But also it’s because I don’t need to be aware of every tiny little expense here and there. But as a grad student, I felt like I did need to be aware of that stuff. I needed to be aware of exactly where all the items on my credit card statement were coming from. So, that was one big habit. Some of the other ones I think would overlap with things you’ve mentioned, like generally not going out to eat unless it was a department event or a Friday night social gathering with a bunch of the other grad students. Reserving that kind of stuff for special occasions. I also have just never been a big drinker. So for me, not regularly going to the bar was not much of a sacrifice, not something that I really had to think too much about to follow.

Commercial

25:59 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. The federal annual tax filing deadline was extended to May 17th, 2021, but the federal estimated tax due date remains April 15th, 2021. This is the perfect time of year to evaluate the income tax due on your fellowship or training grant stipend. Filling out the estimated tax worksheet and form 1040ES will tell you how much you can expect your tax liability to be this year and whether you are required to pay estimated tax. Whether you’re required to pay throughout the year or not, I suggest that you start saving for your ultimate tax bill from each paycheck in a dedicated savings account. If you need some help with the estimated tax worksheet, or want to ask me a question, please join my workshop, quarterly estimated tax for fellowship recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers common questions that postbaccs, grad students, and postdocs have about estimate tax, such as what to do when you switch on or off a fellowship in the middle of a calendar year. Go to P F F O R P H D s.com/Q E Tax to learn more about and join the workshop. Now, back to our interview.

Financial Values Post-PhD

27:17 Emily: I want to go back and like emphasize again this experimentation that you were doing. And I don’t want anybody to take what I’m about to say the wrong way. Graduate school is a very financially challenging period of life, especially for, like you, living on such a low stipend. So I don’t want to lionize that too much. But one of the benefits, if you want to look at it that way, is that you are, many people are sort of forced to do what you did, which is experiment and really figure out, you know, what is going to add to your happiness and your satisfaction with your life at the end of the day and what is not. Because you really have to be kind of brutal about managing your money and cutting out those things that are not adding that much to your life. And I went through that process as well during graduate school. And I think it’s been really beneficial overall. I mean, now post-graduate school, we have a much nicer income and that’s lovely, but I still go back to the lessons and the identification of my own values that I came to during that period of time. And have you carried some things forward into your post-PhD life like that?

28:25 Trevor: Yeah, definitely. Still don’t have cable television, for example. But thinking about it more generally. I would say that the same habits of like checking where my expenses are coming from on like my statements and things like that that, that’s pretty much just stayed the same. Some things are different. I’m a little more willing to like upgrade, you know, things now that I was in graduate school. For example, like once we started this remote learning thing, I bought a printer for my home office, which is something I would have never even considered in grad school. Like always use the department printer, right? Like it’s free and you’re on campus so often. But, so there are things like that or buying new computer software, or stuff like that, I wouldn’t have considered buying, you know, in grad school. You just use whatever freeware alternative, you know, you can get. So some things are a little different.

29:20 Trevor: I am willing to spend a little bit more. And the place I’m living at now is a little bit bigger, like a little bit larger. A little bit more comfortable, higher rent. I have an add-on garage, which I wouldn’t have paid for in grad school, but now, like I like the extra security. And guess what? If it hails, my car won’t get totaled. So that’s nice. But I would say overall, you know, aside from those kinds of incremental changes over time as my income’s gone up and I’m no longer required to micromanage my finances so much, a lot of the habits are still kind of the same. It’s not that big a difference.

Avoiding Lifestyle Inflation

30:00 Emily: Yeah. So, a common term used in the financial space is lifestyle inflation, right? So like when your income goes up and your lifestyle just, somehow the money goes away and you’re suddenly living a higher lifestyle every time you get a raise. I think of a positive process of lifestyle increase that can happen when you go from grad school to a postdoc, postdoc to a real job. That is to say, that like you were just mentioning, adding in intentionally item by item some things into your lifestyle that you think really add to it that you can now afford on the higher salary, but not just blindly increasing everything across the board, right? So that’s what I kind of meant about like keeping the insights that you gained into your own values from that lower-earning period of life in graduate school.

30:47 Trevor: Yeah, definitely. The mere acquisition of more material possessions does not automatically make your life better or make it more fulfilling. It just gives you more stuff. And if you’re like me and you’ve had to move a couple of times since your PhD, having more stuff is not always a good thing for other reasons. I would say, you know, as you said, you want to be more deliberative about the things you buy and about what you add into your life. You want to make sure that it’s actually going to provide some kind of meaningful benefit.

Beware of Financial Pitfalls

31:17 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any bits of advice for current graduate students, some things that you’ve maybe observed like, you know, pitfalls that other graduate students have fallen into that maybe you either used to fall into or, you know, learned how to avoid?

31:33 Trevor: Yeah. There are a couple. So, I think there would be basically three that would come to mind. One is, especially in philosophy and English and some of the other humanity fields I’m familiar with, a lot of graduate students seem to assume that they are going to have to live paycheck to paycheck. That they will never be in a financially stable situation at all while they are a grad student. And of course, if that’s your mentality going in, it kind of creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. You’re very unlikely to get out of that position if you think it’s inevitable and don’t take any steps to avoid it.

32:08 Trevor: Another one is, I was shocked to learn there were lots of grad students in my program, I don’t think our program is anomalous, i’s just a common thing, that just didn’t apply for stuff. That were eligible to get travel reimbursement, or to apply for certain kinds of fellowships, whatever, and just wouldn’t apply for it. And they’d say something like, sometimes it was just forgetfulness maybe, or not knowing the like Byzantine administrative requirements, or something like that. There were also some of them, you know, that thought they weren’t good enough to get a fellowship or something like that. But the thing is like, there’s so much arbitrariness in how these things are evaluated. You have no idea whether you’re good enough or not. Let the committee tell you you’re not good enough, you know. Always apply for whatever it is.

32:53 Trevor: And the last one we’ve already kind of alluded to a couple of times in some of the habits we talked about. But I think there’s a really serious tendency to discount small but frequent expenses. So, you know, one $10 on-campus lunch, not a big deal. But if you’re doing that four days a week for a 15-week semester, suddenly like that’s over a thousand dollars a year that you’re spending, you know, buying lunch on campus, as opposed to what you could be doing, which is just taking a few minutes in the morning, packing a sandwich and whatever else and handling things that way. So, I would say, you know, we’re not great at that kind of arithmetic, like human beings just aren’t wired that way to sort of aggregate those small expenses over really long periods of time. But you’ve got to fight that habit and recognize that that stuff does make a difference.

33:45 Emily: I love all those examples so much. I mean, they really all are about as you were just saying, like mindset and habits. And I think that, you know, they’re especially impactful for someone at the kind of stipend level that you were at, right? Like, I mean, you were able to do quite a bit of savings, but it was still a low stipend overall during that period. And so, it absolutely makes such a difference as you were just saying to go into that situation with believing that there’s something financially possible for you above living paycheck to paycheck. I mean, of course, we all know grad school is very difficult financially, for some people more so than others. But like you said, if you never even think that it’s a possibility to get out of that, you definitely never will. I guess I’ve heard the phrase, like whether you believe you can or believe you can’t, you’re right.

34:35 Emily: This can be applied generally. I don’t think that’s quite true at the graduate student level because many graduate students may believe that they can, but they still can’t just because of circumstances. But the opposite is definitely the case. If you don’t believe that you can get out of the paycheck to paycheck cycle, you absolutely won’t no matter what your circumstances are. So I’m so glad that you brought up those points and I hope that, you know, current and entering graduate students will take note of all three of them.

Navigating Savings and Loan Repayment Post-PhD

34:59 Emily: So, now that you’re on the other side of the PhD and you’re in your postdoc, how does the way that you handled your finances during your PhD affect your life? You know, did you end up having to use the savings during a job search? Or how did it work out?

35:14 Trevor: After it, yeah. So when I was in my last year of graduate school, I wound up getting a postdoc at the University of South Florida, which is where I went and spent two years in Tampa. And now I’m at another postdoc at Ohio State. So I didn’t wind up having to dip into savings to navigate any employment gap, which was very fortunate. I was very happy to have that money on hand though, because I was able to really pay off my loans very quickly as a result. And I was also able to pay off my car. So I think that all my loans and the car were both paid off by the end of like December of 2018 or no, was it 2019? I don’t remember, before I finished up at Florida. The December before I finished up at Florida. And that was obviously very satisfying. Now, like the money that I’m saving is mainly going into like an investment portfolio which is something I wasn’t thinking about at all during graduate school. But, you know, as time goes on, your financial goals and what you’re trying to do have to change with your circumstances,

36:14 Emily: I’m wondering why you chose to pay off the debt during that first postdoc, both the car and your student loans, when you could have worked on those earlier, instead of having such a large cash cushion? What was the calculus there?

36:29 Trevor: One was medical emergency. Wanting to have money on hand in case something like that happened. That never happened to me personally, but there were peers I had to whom that happened. And I wanted to be prepared for that possible contingency. I had no reason to think I was high risk. But some of them didn’t, either. And so, that was part of it. I actually did pay off one of the loans while I was in grad school. I could have theoretically paid off all of them. I don’t know how much of a dent it would have taken in that like 35 grand or whatever I had when I was leaving, but it would have been substantial. The other thing I learned is that I didn’t know how much the moving expenses would be, but because of the delay in getting my first paycheck in Tampa and because of other moving-related expenses, you need around five grand as a minimum to do the kind of move that I did and not be in kind of a tough situation.

37:30 Trevor: You also got to put down security deposits, pay, you know, at least one, I had to pay two months rent without any paychecks in Florida, because I was delayed getting into the system. You know, stuff like that. So, the short answer is, I don’t know if it was necessarily the right call. Like some of those loans though, the interest wasn’t running until I graduated. So for those at least, I’m sure it was fine. But I’m honestly not sure looking back if that was like the financially optimific way to do it, but that was the rationale.

Any Financial Regrets?

38:00 Emily: Yeah. I’m not trying to criticize your decision. Just wondering, like, as someone who held onto the cash for so long, why were you able to let go of it at that point? But having loans actually start accruing interest is a great reason to kick into the repayment mode instead of just save the cash mode. Do you have any financial regrets from graduate school?

38:23 Trevor: I think that any financial regrets I would have would be tied to the choice to get a humanities PhD in the first place, right? Because there’s an opportunity cost with going to grad school, right? Like, I’ve got plenty of friends in non-academic positions who during the time that I was in graduate school, they got a certain degree of career capital, such that when I was getting my PhD, they were like getting promoted or something like that. But insofar as I, you know, don’t regret getting a PhD or having one, I don’t regret the financial circumstances I’m in.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

38:58 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out. We sometimes overlook the most important financial decision, which is whether to go to graduate school or not. So yeah. Thank you for that. Well, Trevor, I’ve enjoyed this conversation so much, and I think that, you know, it’s been really valuable for the listener as well. As we’re wrapping up, the question that I ask all my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that can be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely else.

39:25 Trevor: I’ll just reiterate one short little low-hanging fruit point, which is don’t take out loans to get a degree in the humanities. But that one I’ve already mentioned. The less obvious one I think might generalize across all PhDs is you have to take initiative with your finances because you’re not going to get any feedback from anyone that you’re interacting with about them. So, think about like if I was in a seminar and I wrote a crappy term paper. I would be told that I wrote a crappy term paper and I would be made aware of that and be given suggestions for improvement. But if I made a bad financial decision, no one would know. There’d be no feedback, no graduate advisor is going to be like looming over you to make that kind of decision, which means that you have to self-police pretty much entirely.

40:13 Trevor: No one’s going to give you, you know, any kind of pushback even if you’re making like poor choices or suboptimal choices, repeatedly. And so the only way to kind of keep to avoid that is you have to take the initiative yourself and you have to make some effort, you know. Whether that means making a spreadsheet of all your expenses and tallying them, or just repeatedly like logging into your accounts and checking where your expenses are going or what deposits are being made. Whatever it is, whatever you have to do, like do it because no one else is going to push you in that direction.

40:55 Emily: Such an interesting point. As you were making that, well, one, I thought of the phrase, no one cares about your money as much as you do, which is kind of a truism, but yeah. And the other one is, you know, generally for Americans, like we’re pretty much on our own like financially in a lot of respects with the, you know, pensions being almost non-existent. Social security, yes, it exists. How reliable is it? We don’t know. It’s not that well-funded anyway. It’s not like you get that much money. So in general, Americans are pretty well on their own financially, but the situation is intensified during graduate school because your employer is not giving you the retirement benefits. They’re not giving you certain kinds of insurance. Like unemployment insurance, for example, if you’re a student, I’m pretty confident is not being paid in for you. So other examples like that of just like sort of social safety net kind of stuff. Also, you’re not paying into social security or Medicare. Social safety net stuff is like, we’re kind of exempted from it as students, which is a little bit odd. Especially when you’re getting into your late twenties and thirties, maybe even forties, and you’re still, you know, in PhD training. It’s such an interesting point. So yeah, while Americans in general have to kind of captain their own ship in this, it’s like even more so during graduate school because yeah, your employer is not doing anything for you.

42:13 Trevor: Yeah. That’s an interesting set of observations. Your situation as a graduate student is just very weird and very financially perilous for so many reasons.

42:22 Emily: Yeah. Gosh, well, Trevor, I’m so glad to have gotten your insight on this interview, and I’m really glad that you, you know, had the experience you did in graduate school and all the things that we’ve talked about today and it was positive overall and you got that nice, healthy, you know, nest egg by the end. And yeah, I wish you all the best and thank you so much for volunteering for this.

42:41 Trevor: Sure, thanks Emily. It was good talking with you. And I hope my story can help some other people in the humanities who are struggling. I mean, there were some advantages that went my way. You know, I don’t care how good you are with your money. You’re not making a 15 grand stipend work in New York or LA. So, Knoxville was really good for that. But as I said, you know, don’t fall into that self-fulfilling prophecy. Don’t just assume that your destiny, as a humanities PhD is to live paycheck to paycheck. It doesn’t have to be that way for everybody.

43:11 Emily: I think that’s a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much.

43:15 Trevor: Thanks, Emily.

Listener Q&A: 1098-T

43:15 Emily: Now, on to the listener question and answer segment. Today’s question was asked in advance of a live webinar I gave recently for a university client. So, it is anonymous. Here is the question. Quote: is the form 1098-T accurate? I am confused by it. End quote. I loved the simplicity of this question. I think my conclusion on this is that the form 1098-T is accurate, but it probably doesn’t mean what you think it means. It’s not really trustworthy. The sums in chiefly box five and box one of the form 1098-T draw from the transactions in your student account. So one of the reasons that you shouldn’t take form 1098-T at face value is that not all of your awarded income and not all of your qualified education expenses might have been processed by your university’s student account.

44:23 Emily: You could have awarded income that completely bypassed your student account and just landed in your bank account thanks to some kind of external funding agency. You also could have incurred some expenses that your university did not process. So in that sense, the form 1098-T includes some awarded income and some qualified education expenses, but not necessarily all of them. You still have to critically evaluate your own actual cashflow situation to see the totality of the picture. The other way that the 1098-T maybe doesn’t mean what you think it means is that box one of the 1098-T reflects payments received for qualified tuition and related expenses. That might sound like the same term as qualified education expenses, which is used elsewhere by the IRS, but they’re not quite the same. The sum reported on your 1098-T in box one might be all of the qualified education expenses you can use to make your awarded income tax-free, or it might not. More likely not.

45:34 Emily: There are several education expenses that are considered qualified education expenses for the purpose of making scholarship and fellowship income tax-free that would not be included that are explicitly not to be included in box one of the 1098-T. So, if you incurred those kinds of transactions, even if they show up in your student account, they’re not going to be in the sum reflected in box one of the 1098-T. Therefore, once again, you can’t take box one of the 1098-T at face value. You have to go into your student account and really look at all the transactions that occurred there and figure out whether or not they’re qualified education expenses for the benefit that you are taking. Bottom line, the 1098-T has some issues. And the IRS knows about these issues.

46:27 Emily: And the IRS knows that you may be using qualified education expenses to make some of your scholarship and fellowship income, or what I call awarded income, tax-free that’s not reflected on the 1098-T, and that’s okay. The IRS is aware that this can happen. So the form 1098-T is not given a whole lot of weight when we’re talking about the particular benefit of making scholarship and fellowship income tax-free. It’s given much more weight for the Lifetime Learning Credit, the Tuition Fees Deduction, and the American Opportunity Tax Credit. But those are less often used by funded graduate students. If you want to learn more about the expenses that could be qualified education expenses that you can use to reduce your taxable income and reduce your tax liability that do not show up on form 1098-T in box one, you can join my tax workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (And Understand It, Too!). You can find more information about that at pfforphds.com/taxworkshop. Thank you to Anonymous for this beautifully phrased question. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

47:50 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for The Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast, and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This Prof Developed Her Career, Family, and Finances (with Dr. Sarah Birken of AcaDames)

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Sarah Birken, a faculty member in the Wake Forest School of Medicine and co-host of the podcast AcaDames. Sarah tells the story of her financial life from her PhD training to her research faculty position at UNC to her new tenured position at Wake Forest, which paralleled the births of her children. She has recently experienced a financial awakening after years of being unaware of her cash flow. Sarah explains the motivation behind some of the financial decisions she’s made, such as working part-time and accepting her position at Wake Forest. Graduate students and PhDs who aspire to become faculty members and/or parents will find this episode fascinating!

Links Mentioned in This Episode

career family finances PhD

Teaser

00:00 Sarah: I think I probably would have taken out a loan and, you know, if I could have understood that I would be making an amount of money in the future and really taken that into account and would be able to pay off a reasonable loan, I probably would’ve done that.

Introduction

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode 12, and today my guest is Dr. Sarah Birken, a faculty member in the Wake Forest School of Medicine, and co-host of the podcast AcaDames. Sarah tells the story of her financial life, from her PhD training, to a research faculty position at UNC, to her new tenured position at Wake Forest, which paralleled the births of her children. She has recently experienced a financial awakening after years of being unaware of her cashflow. Sarah explains the motivation behind some of the financial decisions she’s made such as working part-time at UNC and accepting her position at Wake Forest. Graduate students and PhDs who aspire to become faculty members and or parents will find this episode fascinating. On the theme of post-PhD financial life, I thought I would give you another update on my family’s house-hunting process since it’s almost literally all I can think about at the moment. The housing market is wild right now, y’all.

01:29 Emily: My husband and I are trying to buy a single-family home in the San Diego area. We are first-time home buyers, and we are looking for a home we can live in for the next 20 years, at least, which is putting a lot of pressure on the process. We look at every home to see if it can meet not only our immediate needs, such as sufficient indoor and outdoor space for us to weather the rest of the pandemic, but also our anticipated needs when our children are in high school. The cycle that we’ve fallen into just about every week for the last six weeks is to monitor the listings that go up throughout the week and message our real estate agent about any houses we want to see that weekend. On Saturday, we drive from Orange County to San Diego County, leaving our kids with their grandparents.

02:14 Emily: We see between one and four houses and debate the merits of each house for the rest of the weekend. Finally, we submit an offer or not by early in the following week. Then the cycle starts over again, even before we hear back about the offer we submitted. As of the time of this recording, we have submitted three offers on homes, none of which have been accepted. All of the offers were between seven and 12% over the asking price. With the latter two offers, we waived the appraisal contingency, which means that we still intended to buy the home, even if it didn’t appraise for the sale price, and would bring cash to the closing table to make up the difference between the appraisal and sale price. I never knew that was a thing before getting into this process. Our offer was the first runner-up on the latter two homes, which I suppose means we’re offering in the right ballpark.

03:07 Emily: On the second house, we lost out to a buyer who was quote, “willing to beat any other offer,” end quote. And on the third house, we lost out to an all-cash buyer who waived all contingencies. So, on top of California real estate prices always being mindbogglingly high, inventory is very low at the moment. And buyer demand is bidding prices up well over asking. It seems like a very bad time to buy. Yet, here we are trying to, because we are personally and financially more than ready for this step. I’ve been trying to think of advice for future first-time home buyers in my audience, and I might end up doing a whole episode on this process once it’s complete. For now, my advice is to do absolutely the opposite of everything we’re doing.

Emily’s Home-Buying Advice

03:50 Emily: One, don’t buy in a sellers market. Two, don’t buy in a pandemic. Three, don’t buy from a distance. That is, unless it’s the right time to buy, like it is for us. My one actionable piece of advice right now for future buyers is to regularly go to open houses, starting well in advance of when you actually want to buy. In California during the pandemic open houses aren’t allowed. So we missed out on seeing lots of houses casually. We only see a very small number of houses seriously. The problem is that we didn’t really know everything that we were looking for when we started the process and we’ve become more specific in our vision as we’ve seen more homes. We’ve probably doubled our list of must-have and nice-to-have features since including minimum square footages for various areas of the home and lot. It’s the kind of stuff we never paid attention to when simply visiting other people’s homes. We’ve also learned about sort of California-specific things like unpermitted additions and Mello-Roos. So, there is a big learning curve for first-time home buyers. And that open house phase, I think would have been really helpful. Wish us luck to get a house soon so we are put out of our misery.

Book Giveaway Contest

05:06 Emily: Now, it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In March, 2021, I’m giving away one copy of I Will Teach You to Be Rich by Ramit Sethi, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for May, 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during March will have a chance to win a copy of this book. I’m personally really looking forward to reading I Will Teach You to Be Rich for the first time. I have recommended this book and given it as a gift before, but never read it. I do know, however, from reading Ramit’s website and listening to interviews with him that in some ways he has a very different approach to personal finance than I do, such as putting a big emphasis on earning more. So, I think I’ll really benefit from reading a full book from his viewpoint. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of March from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Sarah Birken of AcaDames.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

06:17 Emily: I have a really special guest joining me on the podcast today. It’s Dr. Sarah Birken, you know her from AcaDames where she’s a co-host. She also recently became a faculty member at the Wake Forest School of Medicine. So congrats to Sarah for that. And we are going to be talking today about finances through career transition points. And it’s a real pleasure for me to get to speak with someone, interview someone on the podcast who has been through a few transitions, you know, post-graduate school. So I think she’s going to have some really great lessons for us who are a little younger on in our career to to take from it. So, Sarah, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. And will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

07:00 Sarah: Yeah, sure. Thank you so much for having me. It’s a real pleasure. And I’ve been getting some friendly joking from friends and family that I’m on a personal finance, finance podcast. But yeah, so Sarah Birken, I am an Associate Professor in the Department of Implementation Science at the Wake Forest School of Medicine Division of Public Health Sciences. And as you mentioned, AcaDames co-host. I have been in the field of implementation science since the end of my PhD where I found out that that was in fact what I was doing. My post-doctoral fellowship was in cancer prevention and control. And as we’ll talk a little bit more about, I started out in a half-time research faculty position after my post-doc then moved to full-time and just in July 2020 transitioned to a tenure-track position at Wake Forest.

Sarah’s Finances and Money Mindset in Grad School

08:00 Emily: Yeah, it’s fantastic. And I know you covered that very well on your podcast. So, we’ll link to, in the show notes, a few of those episodes. So let’s start, you know, way back during graduate school and tell us what your finances were like at that time and whether you were aware of them working on them at all? Maybe not?

08:18 Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I have the benefit of having been partnered with somebody who was always very on top of finances. And I started graduate school after having made very, very little money as an administrator at a community health center. And when I applied for graduate school, I had like a vague sense that I wanted to make more money than I was making at the community health center. It would’ve been hard to make too much less than that, but I mostly, my objectives were not to be in a ton of debt and to be able to pay for graduate school, period. And when I applied for graduate schools and I did all over the country and got a full ride to UNC, that was so much of a blessing. I didn’t even, I mean, I knew that I was really lucky and I knew how wonderful it was that I wasn’t going to have to pay for graduate school, but I didn’t fully understand it at the time because I was pretty irresponsible with money.

09:31 Emily: Did anything regarding like your money mindset start to change during graduate school? And were you making more money, by the way, than you were from your prior job?

09:40 Sarah: Yeah. I was making not an appreciable amount more once I was in graduate school, right? Because I had, you know, my tuition and health insurance paid for, and I had a stipend through graduate school, but it was peanuts. It was really very little money. And so I just got accustomed to spending very little. I didn’t take out any loans because I didn’t have to, but I didn’t spend very much because I didn’t have very much to spend. So my, you know, modus operandi was just spend as little as possible, which I think in retrospect was not a great idea because instead of thinking of how much do I have to spend, it was just head in the sand. Don’t spend too much.

10:32 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like you were, yeah, sort of in denial about, or like not wanting to deal with money very much.

10:39 Sarah: Oh yeah. Correct.

10:40 Emily: Thankfully the good part of that is you were erring on the side of not overspending, but underspending, but had you been in a little bit of a different headspace, you would have loosened the purse strings a little bit.

10:50 Sarah: Yep, yep. Exactly.

How Having a Child in Grad School Shifted Finances

10:52 Emily: What else happened in graduate school that affected your finances?

10:55 Sarah: Yeah, so I transitioned from the master’s program into the PhD program. So I completed the master’s and then started the PhD. And the stipend situation was really the same. I again had the tuition remission and the health insurance covered and the stipend, and I was kind of, you know, rocking and rolling doing the graduate school thing. And then I became pregnant with my first child in my second year of graduate school. And kind of, that was a big wake up call. Like I can, I can certainly continue to try to spend as little as possible, but I’m going to have a whole new creature to take care of. And some immediate things that became clear were that I needed to not live next to the drug dealer who I was living next door to anymore. I didn’t feel like I was in imminent danger, but certainly it was not a setting, it was a ton of graduate students and just not the sort of place where you want to raise a child if at all possible. So, I decided to find a single-family home and moved a little bit farther away from the university and found a job that was 30 hours a week, in addition to graduate school, that would pay a little bit more. So I went from making probably around $20,000 to making about $40,000 overnight. Which at the time felt very luxurious.

12:31 Emily: Wow, I don’t know that I’ve interviewed anyone else who’s made that kind of decision. So you took a 30-hour per week job. Does that mean you gave up the job you had, like if it was an assistantship, or how did that work combined with the, you know, the funding of graduate school?

12:46 Sarah: Yeah, that’s an important nuance. So, in the first two years of my PhD program, we were guaranteed some sort of position that would include a stipend. So that was a research assistantship or a teaching assistantship. And then a lot of students find a fellowship that will, you know, a pre-doctoral fellowship that will cover the cost of their schooling, their dissertation writing. And I had applied for maybe one or two, maybe it was even just one fellowship, didn’t get it, and was really worried. Like, what am I going to do next? And so I emailed faculty who were doing research in my area and they didn’t have any funding. And so I emailed the chair of the department and said, here’s my situation. Do you have any suggestions? And she said, actually there is a coordinator position for the reaccreditation of the school of public health. It is 30 hours a week. It is a real 30 hours a week. So it’s not like an assistantship where you might work, you know, 10 hours one week, you know, 25, the next. It was going to be a full 30-hour week position, but it made double what I did before. So that’s how I ended up in that position.

14:00 Emily: Okay. And was your funding still, that is for like the tuition and fees and so forth, was that still provided by your program?

14:08 Sarah: Yes, it was.

Housing Expenses and Saving on Childcare 

14:09 Emily: Okay. Yeah. That’s, that’s really interesting. Of course I know sometimes people who get into the ABD stage have different work arrangements, but I’m really glad to hear how that worked out in particular for you. Okay, so you’re making more money but you have the child, so what’s the next stage in the finances?

14:26 Sarah: Yeah, so we had bought this house and it was very inexpensive and I think it felt comfortable because where I live in North Carolina, really, the market is such that it was as affordable to buy a home as it was to rent a home. And that way, you know, I was building equity and I, you know, I had been for teaching spin classes on the side just to kind of make some extra money and fill in gaps for fees, for example, were not covered by the tuition remission. Which, you know, sometimes they were like $700, nothing to sneeze at. So my partner did start making a little bit more money, but in the meantime there was a gap where he wasn’t making very much money. So we, again, were just really trying to keep things as inexpensive as possible. So one of the decisions I made, it was primarily for kind of personal reasons, but also financial. I had minimal childcare, which was pretty stressful because I was doing, you know, my dissertation, I was working 30 hours a week, and I had an infant. But it was important to me to kind of keep things as limited as possible in terms of expenses and childcare is extremely expensive around here. Probably no more expensive than elsewhere, but it was like a second mortgage to have full-time childcare.

15:56 Emily: Yeah. I was going to ask you about that next because yeah, childcare is, I’ve definitely spoken with other graduate students who have, because the flexible schedule, like tried to make it work and not having at least full-time childcare, maybe just part-time or something. How do you feel about that decision now?

16:14 Sarah: You know, I have reflected on it because I do know of graduate students who have children who have gotten childcare. And in retrospect, I do wish I had given myself the grace of having a little bit more help than I did, because it was just a lot. I remember being extremely sleep deprived. I don’t regret anything because I really savored that time with my daughter, but it was stressful in a way that I don’t think I would want my child to do for themselves if they were in that situation. So I think I probably would have taken out a loan and, you know, if I could have understood that I would be making an amount of money in the future and really taken that into account and would be able to pay off a reasonable loan, I probably would have done that.

17:09 Emily: Yeah. I’ll link in the show notes to another episode where I interviewed a graduate student who is currently taking out student loans for daycare and also side hustling and doing all the things on top of it. Do you feel like you still finished in good form or maybe you took a little bit longer or how do you think that worked out?

17:26 Sarah: You know, I took three years to finish my dissertation. So, it was two years for the master’s program, two years for the predoctoral coursework, and then three years of writing my dissertation. And honestly, I think, you know, a lot of people finish their dissertation in two years in my program. For me, I think it was less about having a child and more about like data issues as, you know, these things go. But yeah, I felt like I was in a pretty good position when I graduated.

Decision to Do a Postdoc After Grad School

17:58 Emily: Okay. And so you did a postdoc after graduate school, is that right?

18:01 Sarah: Yes, I did a postdoc, but I did go on the job market in a very limited way, mostly because I wanted my dissertation chair to read my dissertation. And I knew that if I were on the job market, he would read my dissertation, and it worked. And so I very seriously considered a faculty position that I was offered. And the salary that was offered, it was a nine-month tenure-track faculty position. And I was considering also two different postdocs that I had been offered in North Carolina. The faculty position was outside of North Carolina. And you know, postdocs didn’t make, there was one postdoc that made not terribly far off from the faculty position. And then another post-doc that was just very little money. It was a T32 and it had no research support. And the postdoc that I ended up taking, it was an R25, which at the time you could do a post-doc, they funded them that way. And it was a much more generous salary than the T32. It had research funding. I hadn’t even been counseled about thinking about a startup package for a faculty position. And I don’t know if that was on the table. I’m not sure I remember, I don’t remember talking about it. And so again, in retrospect, it was really smart of me to take the generous post-doc that had research funding that had a little bit more generous salary than the other one. And I did that for three years. And for each of the two years subsequent to the first, I got a $5,000 raise.

19:43 Emily: Yeah, not bad. It’s very curious though, because you don’t hear about people turning down tenure-track positions too often. So what was it that tipped things in favor of doing the postdoc?

19:53 Sarah: Primarily, my partner was not super excited about moving, and I felt like I wanted to make sure that he was comfortable with our next life stage, our next, you know, career decision. And also I did get advice from somebody at the institution where I had gotten the tenure-track offer that I should do a post-doc. And part of that, I think for her, the reason she recommended that was because I would have time off of the tenure-track clock, the tenure clock to publish, to get some preliminary data for a career development award. And so taking those things together, it was a pretty clear decision.

20:40 Emily: So, your idea then at that point was to go on the job market again, after the conclusion of the postdoc and be a stronger position for winning funding and getting a position at that time.

20:51 Sarah: Exactly.

Sarah’s Finances and Money Mindset During the Postdoc

20:52 Emily: Gotcha. Okay. So let’s talk about the finances during the postdoc. How much were you making approximately at that time and you know, what was going on?

21:00 Sarah: So, I started at, I want to say $50,000, which is pretty good for a postdoc back in 2011. And then the next year I made 55 and then the final year I made 60, which was really pretty sweet.

21:16 Emily: Yeah. That raise schedule is, yeah, that’s pretty good.

21:19 Sarah: Yes. I finally felt like I was able to breathe a little bit. I mean, I wasn’t exactly like going on fancy vacations and buying a new car which, you know, I hadn’t done. I think, you know, my husband and I went on our very extravagant honeymoon. We went to New Zealand six months after we got married. But other than that, we really weren’t doing anything extravagant. I was driving the same car I had gotten right after college which was used anyway. And so, I think that I just was able to feel like I didn’t have to scrimp and save at every turn making $60,000 a year, which is pretty good.

22:02 Emily: Yeah. And regarding, you know, your child as well, how were you spending money in that respect?

22:09 Sarah: And at this point, I had two children. So in October of my first year of the postdoc, three years after my first child was born, I had a second child. And so, at this point, my daughter was in preschool about half-time. And then my son, I stayed home with exclusively for quite a while, maybe six months, again, kind of fitting my work around the edges, having a little bit of in-home daycare. Somebody would come into my home and watch him while my daughter was at preschool and I would get some work done. And I was doing a lot of work at night and on the weekends.

22:51 Emily: Yeah. So, you had your full-time job, but it was fit into the margins around the children’s schedule.

22:57 Sarah: Exactly. It’s the double-edged sword of that flexible job situation. And I don’t do bench science, so I really was on my own schedule for the most part.

Retrospective Reflections on the Affordability of Childcare

23:07 Emily: Yeah. And I’ll ask you the same question again. How do you feel about that arrangement now, looking back on it?

23:13 Sarah: I mean, I think I’d probably give you the same answer, that first of all, I probably could have afforded more childcare. Particularly once I was making, you know, above $50,000, I probably could have done it. It would have been a little bit tight, but I could have afforded it. Again, it was kind of my own personal comfort level with how much I wanted to be away from my children, but it also was, I just was so used to living as restrictively as possible. It didn’t even occur to me to get more help because I just operated as stringently as possible, but I didn’t have to. And if I had taken a little bit more time to really understand my finances, my cashflow, I’m very lucky. I didn’t have any debt from college. My parents paid for college. I didn’t have any debt from graduate school, aside from my house. I didn’t have any huge responsibilities, liabilities, so I probably could have afforded it. And if I had really examined my finances, I would have seen that.

24:22 Emily: Yeah. I’m asking these questions because I was in a similar period. So I have two children. They’re four and two right now. And in their very young years I was self-employed. And so I had this wonderful flexibility. And so I also didn’t employ as much childcare as I could have, and we sort of slowly dipped our toe into more and more childcare as they got a little bit older. And then the pandemic took the childcare away, and I really, really miss it. So that’s kind of my perspective on this. It’s like, yeah, I could have done a little bit more with that and been a little bit more focused on my work. And maybe for my business, you know, maybe gotten things ramped up a little bit faster than they had been. But, you know, like you said, also, like not regretting having the time with the children because that’s wonderful, but yeah, I’m just curious now for, I know, obviously there’s, you know, younger listeners maybe still in graduate school, maybe they haven’t had any children yet. Just trying to think through these decisions. I think it’s useful as you do on your podcast to talk through the issues that people face as they’re juggling career plus, you know, caregiving for family members and so forth.

25:24 Sarah: Yeah. And I think the bottom line is, you know, it is an intersection of personal values, finances, aspirations for what you want to do with your money, and just understanding all of those fully is going to position you best to make the right decision.

Commercial

25:47 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. Taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold your income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2020 tax return, which are available at pfforphds.com/tax. I hope you’ll check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which you can find links to from P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. It would be my pleasure to you save time and potentially money this tax season. So don’t hesitate to reach out. Now, back to our interview.

Retirement Savings, Directed Gift-Giving, and Coaching

26:52 Emily: So, let’s also talk a little bit about what financial practices did you have? Because you were saying you weren’t super aware of your cashflow during that time. You didn’t really examine it. So, were you budgeting? Were you saving? What was going on?

27:05 Sarah: Yeah, so by this time my partner was a personal financial planner, which was extremely convenient. He had always been really interested in personal finance. And so, you know, early on I had been, even when I worked at the community health center, I maxed out my retirement savings or contributions and didn’t have that option as a graduate student, no benefits there, but we certainly were saving as much as we could. Just a little bit here and there. But I was not a participant in that decision by my own, kind of, I guess it was more passivity than it was a conscious decision that I didn’t want to be involved in that. And so, I think for me, I just had so little perspective on any of our cashflow. But we had set up 529 plans for each of our children before their birth. And that was something that we started to ask anybody who wanted to give presents to just contribute to 529 plans. So, these were the kinds of things that we were starting to do that would make things a little bit easier and asking for things like, instead of stuff, like memberships to museums and things like that.

28:18 Emily: Yeah, I like that directed gift-giving, the nudges, that’s a good tip for any future parents. Okay. So, any more that you wanted to say about that postdoc position?

28:28 Sarah: I did work with a professional coach when I was trying to make a decision about kind of what I wanted to do towards the end of the postdoc in terms of my next steps. And one thing she encouraged me to think about was that there are all types of currency, and salary is just one of those. You know, benefits are just another component, but flexibility, anything really that you value as a human, you know, personal happiness, contentment in your relationship, proximity to family, be that far or near, depending on what you want. These are all important forms of currency. And that was kind of my orientation as I sought another position following my postdoc.

29:15 Emily: Yeah, that sounds like a really great exercise to go through when you’re at that point of deciding where you’re going to go next in your career. Is that something, an exercise you would recommend to others?

29:25 Sarah: Oh my gosh. Yes. Literally writing it down. I think just making all of those things as explicit as possible. Again, in the vein of really having clear picture of all of these things. Now, still at this point, I didn’t have a clear picture of my finances, but at least knew that that was a consideration that I had to account for.

Sarah’s Half-Time Research Track Faculty Position

29:50 Emily: Yeah. So, you went on the job market again, and where did you end up?

29:55Sarah: Well, so I didn’t really go on the job market. One of the major values that I pulled out of my experience with the coach was that I did want to stay home part-time with my children. I really liked being home part-time and I liked kind of being able to be with them as much as possible while continuing to do my research. And so, I basically worked with a mentor who was in a powerful position to design a half-time research track faculty position. Again, this was a huge compromise in terms of, you know, just financial benefits because it was half a salary, it was no benefits. So I forewent retirement savings aside from any personal contributions, which I did make, and, you know, was on my partner’s benefits which was stressful because he worked for a very small firm. Health insurance was very limited and expensive, but that was a conscious decision on my part to forego the benefits, you know, real and kind of personal, associated with the kind that I would get in a full-time position.

31:10 Emily: Yeah, I think, so I also work part-time now because I can design my own schedule. I find it to be great. And I think a lot of people wish that they could negotiate for that kind of, like still keep their career going, maybe a little slower speed than before, but still on some kind of track while having a lot more time for their own stuff, for their own families or whatever it is that they’re doing. How long were you in that part-time role?

Transition to Full-Time Contingent Faculty Position

31:37 Sarah: I was in the part-time role, I want to say, for maybe a year and a half or two years. And then I sought a position elsewhere because I was ready to work full-time, and it didn’t seem like that was going to be an option at UNC in my department. And so I did get an offer for a full-time position at another institution. And as you know, the chips fell, I was offered a full-time position at UNC in the same department where I was. It was still research track. So I was completely contingent, which means that I ate what I killed. If I didn’t get a grant to cover my salary, I wasn’t going to get a salary ever or a full salary. So that was stressful. But I was taking into account, frankly, a couple of things. One was the kind of intellectual freedom that I would have being in this, even though it was not a tenure-track faculty position, I had the intellectual freedom to do investigator-initiated research. Another consideration was, I was just scared, basically, to do something new or to think about what else my career might look like. I was kind of already on a path, and it was frightening to me to think about doing something different.

33:08 Emily: I see. So, were you at UNC that entire time, or was your postdoc at a different institution?

33:13 Sarah: No, my postdoc was at UNC and its Cancer Center.

Sarah’s Finances During Full-Time Faculty Position

33:17 Emily: I see. I think you’ve talked about on your podcast about the relative of merits of staying at an institution, right? The same institution where you did your graduate work. So yeah, I’d love it if you could give me an episode and I’ll link to it in the show notes for like further discussion about that. For our purposes, now you have this full-time role. You know, you’re going after your own grants, but you get to set your own salary. What do you want to say about the finances during that stage?

33:45 Sarah: I have to say that it was a kind of delay cognitive shift, because I doubled my salary overnight and I was still functioning as though I made half of my salary. And, you know, I really, because I had never confronted or taken the time or the initiative to closely examine my finances, I couldn’t adjust my thinking around finances or how I spent my money. Again, my M.O. was just make as much as possible and spend as little as possible. And I think that, on the one hand, that continued to work out relatively well, but on the other hand, it meant that I was really deferring to my partner for all things, all financial decisions. And I do not recommend that. I cannot overemphasize, and I remember sitting down with a financial planner who helped my partner and me before we got married.

34:50 Sarah: And she said, you need to focus on this. You need to pay attention. And I, honestly, where my brain was was to say like, I’ll figure it out when I need to. Like, right now, I’m overwhelmed with everything I have on my plate. And I don’t want to think about it. There was nothing anybody could have said to convince me to pay more attention to it until I was ready, which is kind of my personality anyway. But at this stage, it’s much harder to wrap my head around things because things are much more complicated. And I would like to think that if I had started earlier and focused when things were simpler, I would be able to keep up a little bit better now. Now that I really am taking the bull by the horns, I am able to get my head around it. I’m happy to say I was right. You know, I need to figure it out now and I am figuring it out, but it’s much more complicated than it would have been, say, when I was in graduate school.

35:50 Emily: I think that’s a really, really great message for the people listening who are starting their adulthood, right? And I actually have, not about finances generally, but I kind of say the same thing about taxes, actually. Like when you start understanding how your tax return works and how income tax operates when you have a simple income, a small income, you know, no assets, no house, no all this complexity that can come like later on, as your financial life gets more complicated, your taxes also get more complicated. And so I can definitely see how, yeah, if you were deferring this work to your partner for all those years now, suddenly you open your eyes and you have this wonderful paying job, but you’ve got the two kids and you have all the different, you know, aspects of your finances that are going on. I can definitely see how it could be certainly overwhelming, but I’m really glad to hear that you’re finally, you know, deciding to take charge of it. So definitely the advice is pay attention when it’s small and, you know, your knowledge will grow as your finances become more complicated. Yeah.

36:52 Sarah: Absolutely.

36:54 Emily: Is there anything else that you want to say about your finances during that period when you were still at UNC, but at the full-time role?

Negotiating Salary as Research Track Faculty

37:01 Sarah: The only kind of negotiating advantage one has as a research track faculty member is that the institution is not on the hook at all for the money that they’re paying you. Because it’s not them paying you. It is completely grant funding. And as a non-physician research scientist, there is no amount that, you know, if I were a physician and I made over the NIH cap, then sure, the institution would have been on the hook for the remainder, but that wasn’t the case for me. So, that was something where I didn’t feel like it was asking too much. So, I did kind of push that a little bit more than I would have otherwise when I was negotiating that retention package.

37:53 Emily: Because as you said earlier, you’re completely funding your own salary. Plus, the research expenses, the lab, whatever it is, well, you said you weren’t lab-based research, but whatever it is that you’re funding costwise.

38:01 Sarah: Right, exactly.

38:02 Emily: Yeah. So, what I’m taking that to mean is that you can set your own salary, but there’s some input from the institution and you don’t want to shoot too high because then you’re running through the grant money more quickly. Is that right?

38:13 Sarah: I mean, that is a consideration, although you kind of put in for a percent effort, but that will eat up the research budget a little bit. That wasn’t something I thought of too much, just because I think the kind of incremental chunk of the overall budget that my salary would take up, you know, a $5,000 increase in my salary, isn’t going to blow my budget.

Sarah’s New Tenure-Track Position at Wake Forest

38:40 Emily: Gotcha. Let’s talk about your new position now. What prompted you to go for it and be willing to leave UNC?

38:49 Sarah: Oh my gosh, it was such a process, but I had a career development award. That is how I funded 75% of my salary for the time, the three years that I was in a full-time position. The other 25% was made up of teaching and other kind of co-investigator positions. And as I near the end of my career development award, you know, the writing was on the wall. I was going to have to, you go from 75% of your salary being covered to, you know, whatever you can pull in with grants. And after your career development award is over, as a, you know, an academic researcher. You’re never going to have a grant that’s going to cover that percent of your salary again. It’s just, you know, you might, if it’s a really generous project, you might get 25%, but usually it’s more on the order of like 10, 15, 20% of your effort.

39:47 Sarah: And that means that you’re on a lot of projects. And funding being what it is, it did not seem like something that was viable for me in a research track position, being able to pull in enough money to support the lifestyle that I had come, you know, again, I was still not spending a ton of money. But, you know, we moved from a smaller house to a bigger house. We had bought a new car by that time. These are things that do add up and, frankly, I wasn’t excited about making half a salary anymore. And, you know, one of the things that happened when I was on faculty was I just wore, in graduate school and for the postdoc, I really just more whatever clothes I had and I just didn’t really care. And something happened and I was like, I love clothes. And I still only buy used clothes to the extent possible. I really am like a big consignment person, but still, these are kind of the orientations that shifted a little bit. So.

40:58 Emily: I want to actually interject there because I think it’s, again, I’m so pleased to speak with someone who’s a little bit further on in their career, because I think this is a great perspective to have that the lifestyle sacrifices that you are willing to do in your twenties might not be ones that you’re willing to do later on. Now, of course, within personal finance, there’s this FIRE movement and there’s lean FIRE, which is, you know, keeping your lifestyle capped at this really low level. And you expect to live on that in perpetuity, maybe for a subset of the population that is acceptable. But I think most Americans on average kind of want to spend more as they, you know, advance through their lives. They grow accustomed to certain comforts and little luxuries that they want to keep around. So, I think that’s a perfectly reasonable perspective. It’s something I’ve observed in myself as well of, yeah, growing to like a little bit more spending once it’s available and not wanting to backtrack from that.

41:53 Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, going through a tenure-track position was, in some respects, kind of just a psychological shift. I knew that I could probably find a position that would have some startup, which would cover a part of my salary and kind of the percent coverage that I would have would decrease over time. This is kind of the way things go in my field. But that psychological comfort of knowing that I didn’t have to pull in a hundred percent of my salary based on grants was enough to pull me away. And it was time for me to find a position that felt more secure. So, really it was just psychological. I am in a soft money position now, but I like to call it, you know, semi-firm because it is, you know, my startup package was such that I started out with 90% of my salary funded and then it will decrease over five years to 65% of my salary I need to pull in from outside. And my thinking was, if, you know, I’m five years into a tenure-track faculty position and I can’t pull in 65% of my salary, then I probably shouldn’t be doing the kind of research that I’m doing. There’s a little bit of wiggle room because there are lean years, but I feel like I should be able to do that. So, it felt very fair.

43:27 Emily: Interesting. Yeah, this is, it’s kind of a lesson in like betting on yourself, I guess, that you’ve gone through. That is to say, you’re giving yourself a little bit more time for that transition by getting your salary covered again, but you’ve just sought out the structure within academia that makes you feel comfortable at any given time. I really love this lesson about like negotiating for what you want. Like when you did the half-time position, then, well, you phrased it as if it fell into your lap, but somehow you managed to get that to be a full-time position. So, presumably there was some kind of negotiation going on there, or at least going after a position. Yeah, I really like how you’ve been kind of flexible and gone with what you want and what you feel comfortable with, through these you know, through this arc of your career. Is there anything else that you want to say about negotiating that startup package?

Negotiating a Startup Package

44:13 Sarah: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s important to acknowledge a couple of things. So, one is kind of a small thing, but it was really important. When I was a postdoc, I attended a seminar given by an expert in negotiating. And one of the things I remember from that was, you know, well, two things I remember from that, one was start with a win. And the other thing was, you know, you can be honest about what you’re hoping for in terms of the outcome. And so when I was faced with the opportunity to negotiate, because I had been offered a position, I took those things to heart. So, I knew that I wanted the position. And so I didn’t, you know, make any effort to suggest otherwise. I said, I really want this to work out. I’m looking forward to finding a way that we can make that happen so that we’re both happy. And I think that was true and it was nice and it made for a really comfortable negotiation.

45:15 Emily: Yeah. You’re sort of establishing from the beginning, like we’re going to be working together. So let’s make this a pleasant process and both get something that we want here.

45:24 Sarah: Exactly. And, you know, I think I had very different expectations about what the salary was going to be, not very different, but sufficiently different, that that was one of the things that I wanted to negotiate. And we came to a place that we were both happy with. And the startup package made up for kind of any, you know, difference between what I kind of thought the salary was going to be versus what it was. And I certainly came out of the negotiation feeling really good about where things landed. And I think my chair did too.

45:58 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s the best kind of outcome is that you, it’s actually something that I like to say about discussing finances generally is that you, you learn a lot about another person by sort of exposing your values through discussing how you handle your money and what your aspirations are and so forth. And this the same kind of thing could happen through negotiation. My husband actually was in, it wasn’t a negotiation, but it was a performance review recently. And he was asked by his supervisor, well, what motivates you? Is it more salary? Is it more something else? Like what’s going to really, you know, get you to do great work for us? I thought that was a great question, you know?

46:34 Sarah: Great question.

What Motivated You to Face Up to Your Finances?

46:34 Emily: Yeah. Is there anything else that you want to add about, you know, finances through this arc? Do you want to talk about what motivated you to finally face up to your finances and do that whole process?

46:48 Sarah: You know, I turned 40 this year, last year. And I think with taking on a new position, really, it was, I mean, I should emphasize what a big deal it was for me to leave UNC. I like control. I like being able to anticipate what things are going to be tomorrow. And for me to take the leap to leave an institution that I had been at for five years as a faculty member for three years as a postdoc and for seven years as a graduate student was huge. Huge. Especially since I had had several opportunities prior to that to leave and I hadn’t. So, I think, you know, a combination of turning 40 and having succeeded in shoehorning myself out of my comfort zone and, you know, emphasis on the succeeded. Because I really did succeed.

47:47 Sarah: I got exactly what I wanted. That empowered me to be like, Oh, I can do this. Like I’ve got skills, I can handle this. So, and I, you know, I now work with, and there’s a website called Personal Capital that I use and I’m working with a financial planner through them and just getting a hold of the basics. I think I’ve just come to recognize that I have skills, and I’m smart. And I just need to approach this in a really pretty straightforward way of like, I make money, I spend money. I should be able to know what those things are and have a full picture. And I owe it to myself to have that full picture. And hopefully all of the kind of, you know, considerations I have when I look back at my trajectory, I can think that moving forward, I’m going to have a much clearer picture and I will be able to make decisions that are fully informed.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

48:52 Emily: I’m so glad that you’ve come to this point. And isn’t it fortuitous that I asked you to come on the podcast right at the same time as you’re going through this personal journey as well? You have a new lease on your financial life now. It’s wonderful to hear. So, Sarah, as we wrap up, the question that I ask all my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that you want to emphasize that we’ve already touched on, or it could be something completely new?

49:17 Sarah: Well, I mean, I guess I’ll just double down on the idea of, I think if I could go back and tell myself it would just be, for me, I like things as simple as possible. I would just break out a spreadsheet and put in my income and start tracking my spending. Like that’s pretty easy. It really is. And it’s really easy now with all the apps. And I think that just doing that is a first step. And then you start to get curious, like, okay, well, what do I do with the gap between what I make and what I spend? Okay, I got to do something about that. Or what do I do if I have a little extra? What can I do with that? And it kind of can be a natural progression.

50:02 Emily: I think that’s exactly right. I’ve heard that from other guests as well. And it’s something I went through myself is just that very first baby step is just to start tracking. Just to write down what’s going on, and then you don’t have to push yourself to start budgeting or do anything complicated right away. Just start observing what’s going on. And then as you said, you’ll become curious, you’ll naturally start to make changes. Yeah, I think that’s wonderful advice. Well, thank you, Sarah so much for this interview. It’s so fascinating to learn about, you know, the arc of your career and how your finances have changed through all of that as well.

50:30 Sarah: This has been lovely. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Listener Q&A: Taxable Fellowship and Scholarship Income

50:38 Emily: Now, onto the listener question and answer segment. Today’s question was asked during a live tax webinar I gave recently for a university client. So, it is anonymous. Here is the question. Quote, “How does the IRS verify the amount of taxable fellowship and scholarship income that we report on our form 1040?” End quote. I love answering questions during live events, and I especially love questions like this one that are completely unique. I’d never been asked this one before. It sort of goes to this fundamental thing about income tax in the U.S. which is that the IRS does not necessarily know in advance what your tax liability is. You are really telling the IRS what it is through generating your tax return. So there’s a lot of individual responsibility there, and there’s also kind of a lot of, you know, trust on the IRS’s that you are doing a good job at reporting, you know, your income and your expenses and so forth accurately. That is, unless they decide to audit you. Anyway, that’s pretty unlikely for a grad student.

51:39 Emily: So, to give you some context for this question in the workshop, I talk a lot about how to track down all of your income sources as a graduate student and also all of your qualified education expenses. Now, if your university issued you a form 1098T, you would think that that 1098T would be a complete record of those two things, but it is not. I emphasize in the workshop that it’s very common for graduate students to have additional qualified education expenses not listed in box one of the 1098T that they can use to reduce their taxable income, and therefore, ultimately, their tax liability. So, the question is basically asking, well, if my taxable scholarship and fellowship income is not simply box five of the 1098T minus box one of the 1098T, how does the IRS know that I actually have those expenses?

52:32 Emily: Or how does it know that I did my math right on the subtraction? And my answer, at least for U.S. citizens and residents, is that the IRS doesn’t really know what went into calculating that taxable scholarship and fellowship income, at least when you first submit your tax return. All you’re reporting is that net number, the taxable fellowship and scholarship income. You’re not putting on your tax return anywhere your total scholarship and fellowship income and your total qualified education expenses, only the net of those two. So, in that tax return, you’re not showing the math, right? You’re only showing the answer. However, my firm suggestion is that you keep your notes on this process. Keep the receipts. Keep the records of all the qualified education expenses and so forth. Because while unlikely, it is possible that the IRS may come back to you and say, Hey, we don’t understand where this number came from of your taxable scholarship or fellowship income.

53:31 Emily: What is it? What went into this calculation? And then you’ll be able to show how you did the math there. It’s not something you have to submit in your initial tax return, but it is very handy to keep around for several years in case the IRS does question your return. By the way, that’s not necessarily a full formal audit. It could just be something that you respond to in a brief letter or over the phone. I’ve actually coached several graduate students through something similar to this process where the IRS didn’t understand how they were reporting their grad student income. And they were able to, you know, write a coherent letter, justifying it, and the issue was put to bed. So I loved answering that question in the live webinar. I’m glad to have been able to replicate that for you here. By the way, there are two ways that you can get more of this kind of tax info in your life.

54:17 Emily: One is that you can join my tax workshop, which is called How to Complete your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!). You can join that as an individual, or actually you can even make a bulk purchase. Like if you want to arrange that through your department or grad student association or something. You can find out more details about the tax workshop at pfforphds.com/taxworkshop. I am also available for live events. Believe it or not in previous tax seasons, I have been booked late in March to give an event actually that was in-person that year in early April. So, if you want to bring this kind of material to graduate students and even postdocs broadly within your university, please just email me, [email protected], to kind of get the ball rolling on that. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

55:21 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book, giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.