money mindset

How Academics Can Apply Self-Compassion to Their Money and Time

February 24, 2025 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Danielle De La Mare, a career wellness coach and facilitator and the person behind Self-Compassionate Professor. Danielle recounts how she reached a crisis point in her career and personal life that led her to quit her tenured professorship. This crisis included a financial component due to her avoidant money mindset. Danielle describes how she is healing in the area of finances, especially in relationship with her husband, using self-compassionate practices. Danielle and Emily draw parallels between time management and money management to keep both in balance and sustainable. Danielle ends the interview by teaching two quick self-compassion practices that you can apply immediately to your financial life.

Links mentioned in the Episode

How Academics Can Apply Self-Compassion to Their Money and Time

Teaser

Danielle (00:00): So the healing was really about like me finally just like, ah, turning into the reality that I had to develop a relationship with money and it was really scary.

Introduction

Emily (00:21): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (00:49): This is Season 20, Episode 4, and today my guest is Dr. Danielle De La Mare, a career wellness coach and facilitator and the person behind Self-Compassionate Professor. Danielle recounts how she reached a crisis point in her career and personal life that led her to quit her tenured professorship. This crisis included a financial component due to her avoidant money mindset. Danielle describes how she is healing in the area of finances, especially in relationship with her husband, using self-compassionate practices. Danielle and I draw parallels between time management and money management to keep both in balance and sustainable. Danielle ends the interview by teaching two quick self-compassion practices that you can apply immediately to your financial life.

Emily (01:35): The tax year 2024 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs can access them for free. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they sponsor this workshop for you and your peers? You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Thank you so, so much for doing so! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s20e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Danielle De La Mare of Self-Compassionate Professor.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:12): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Danielle De La Mare of Self-Compassionate Professor. And we, uh, this podcast interview came to be from an unusual path, which is that we both work with Dr. Jill Hoffman, who you heard from, uh, last season in an interview. So Jill thought it was a great idea to get me and Danielle together and we agreed. So we’re doing this interview now and I’m really excited we’re going to talk about the intersections of money with other aspects of life management, and Danielle has a lot of unique perspective on this. So, uh, Danielle, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast, and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

Danielle (03:51): Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. Um, yeah, uh, I’m Danielle De La Mare and I have been what I call a career wellness coach to mostly mid-career academics, um, for the last several years, since 2019. And, um, sometimes I have early career academics, sometimes I have postdocs, sometimes I have later career academics that I work with full professors. Um, but basically these are people who have hit a wall in their career. They’re not feeling alive in their career. They’re not feeling joy, they’re not feeling well. Um, and basically I have a group, um, program that that sort of works them through that. Now I myself earned tenure in 2018 and then quit my job right after that <laugh>. So the way, um, I engaged with academia myself was very hard on my body. I was very overwhelmed all the time. I was very stressed all the time. I hit burnout. I had small illnesses all the time. And then I had really big major like life-threatening kinds of illnesses as well. Um, two of those actually. So I ended up leaving academia and I started doing this career wellness coaching work, um, diving into it, trying to learn about how to be well in my career and what <laugh> what I found is that those toxic work habits I, um, used in academia I just brought with me to this new job. Um, and, uh, the reason I left academia so quickly is ’cause my husband got a job. Um, he, he was an academic at my same institution and he got a job, um, across the country. So I ended up leaving and I was so happy to leave and thought I can start this new gig and do it all differently. And then I ended up doing the same thing. So, um, yeah, I guess that’s it. The, the core of my work is about self-compassion, like making decisions about your career, taking action in your career from a place of self-compassion. And I guess that’s me in a nutshell.

Emily (06:16): Yeah. Okay. I’m so glad to, I’m, I’m excited to hear more about this story. So like when you were coming up on those maybe the last few years, um, as an academic, um, give us kind of what was going on with you getting up to that crisis point. Um, you’ve mentioned health crises already, but maybe also about your time management, maybe also about your career progression, maybe also your money, like even more holistically. Let’s hear more about that.

Danielle (06:43): Yeah, 100%. Um, so yeah, physical body was giving out. Um, and I think had I been somebody who was a planner, like I never planned anything like weekly planning monthly. I never did any of it. Um, that would’ve definitely helped with my overwhelm. Um, my overwhelm definitely contributed to my, some of my health crises for sure. Um, so I was essentially just focusing only on my work, doing my work, and that was it. I was trying to shut out my life other than that in every way. Um, you know, I was a professor and that was my identity and this is what I did. And, um, I wanted to prove to the people around me that that’s, that I could do a good job and that I would do it well. So I would shut my door <laugh> when I got into the office. Um, and I could hear my colleagues banter outside the door and I wouldn’t communicate with them. I wouldn’t hang out with them. I could hear them and I would kind of have this longing of like, oh, it’d be nice to go hang out with them, but I can’t. I’ve gotta work. Um, I remember, you know, doing everything I could to, to push my daughter off on, um, my mom like, can you take care of Mar she needs, uh, she needs you today ’cause I have to work. Um, I didn’t look at, you know, I didn’t look at my weeks. As I said, I didn’t look at my months, I never looked at my money, I didn’t look at anything. The only thing that mattered was my work, and it’s because I had this core, core belief that I was incompetent and I was bad and I was wrong. And it was this impo-, these imposter feelings. And because of those, I shut everything else out and not shockingly got sick.

Navigating Money, Career, and Relationships

Emily (08:39): Wow. Wow. I can so see how your brand became what it is, <laugh> identifying that as the core issue inside you, your psychology, um, that was kind of like fueling all of this. Um, was there ever going to be an end point or with that like core belief that you were incompetent, had you not left your job, would you just have continued, as you said, shutting out everything else in your life to only focus on the work?

Danielle (09:07): Well, I think I did do that. Um, I, I continued to shut out everything to focus on the work even after I left. Um, I, I remember having an argument with my husband right after he accepted this job across the country. And, um, I was like, I’m fine leaving. This job sucks. It’s not for me, dah, dah, dah, dah. I don’t feel well, this is well after I had hit burnout. And so it, you know, my feelings were very different then. And I was like, let’s go, let’s get outta here. And he’s like, okay, I get that you want to start sort of this entrepreneurial work and I just need to know like, where are we money wise? Like when are we gonna call it quits? Like we can give it a shot, we can move, I can take over, you know, paying for things and doing, you know, supporting us, but then I need to know when you’re gonna, when is sort of the breaking point when we’re not gonna be able to do it anymore. Um, and I remember just getting really angry, like, this is my purpose in life. I’m pretty sure that we can manage it. We can figure this out. I can’t believe you want a number. What is this number thing? And I, I remember getting really, really angry with him and, and he was really angry with me. Like I, he wanted some clarity, he wanted some sense that, you know, we go into this. He, he knew like when the end point was he needed that. And I, I was like, um hmm. It’s like I was offended by it. Like, no, this is my real work. This is the work I’m meant to be. How could you, you know, question that kind of thing. Um, and so I kind of shrugged him off and he kind of let me, and he wasn’t happy about it and he carried a lot of sort of resentment about it. And we got here and I’m in Denver now where he got the job and I ended up taking another faculty job to appease him. But then I got sick. I got really, really, really, really, really sick life, threateningly sick and ended up having to quit six months later. And so it was this, like, it was the body <laugh> was, was communicating things to me. My husband wanted some clarity about money. I didn’t know how to plan my time out in a way that would like actually balance out my life. Um, I was just sort of fully focused on my career and my, my new job, or I guess I should say my new career, my new, what I felt was like my calling, my, my dharma, my purpose. Um, and I was very, very, very imbalanced. And so we got here and started arranging our new life and things just got more and more stressful actually. And I guess a big part of that stress was lack of money because I had to quit that job six months in and then I had to try to build a business and I refused to talk about money with my husband and <laugh>, like all this stuff was happening.

Emily (12:22): Was he more clued in about the money than you were, or were you both kind of flying like in the dark?

Danielle (12:27): So this is kind of how I think of it. I think of our relationship to money as like attachment style. If you’re securely attached, you, you communicate with like your partner and your friends and the people around you in this way that, that, that is productive and loving and truthful and those kinds of things. Well, we have that same relationship to money <laugh>. Um, and if you don’t have a secure attachment style for me, I tend to be avoidant. Um, I will avoid human relationships. I will avoid, um, relationship to money. I will avoid relationship to time. And he, my husband falls sort of on the other end of the spectrum and he is, um, he’s anxious about everything and he tries to push things into being, and it should work like this and it, and he gets really rigid about it. And so I would say that neither of us had a secure relationship to money. Um, and in fact we were talking about money in completely different ways, and each of our ways were like totally unhealthy, <laugh> totally, totally unhealthy, totally toxic. Um, yeah. And actually as I, as I recall this time, like I can feel this sort of pain in my body and the heaviness and the sadness. It was a hard time.

Healing and Building a Relationship with Money

Emily (13:51): Yeah. And I, I think we’re gonna keep the conversation fairly focused around money today and it, and its relationship with these other things, but clearly this was going on for you in multiple areas of your life, right? It’s not just money, it’s not just career, it’s, it’s well beyond that. So you’re speaking about this time in the past tense. So let’s talk about like, emerging from that or, or shifting it or healing from it or however you like, conceptualize that. So like, what’s been the shift from like that point in time to now

Danielle (14:19): Turning into the reality that I need to have conversations with my husband about finances, um, which was really scary to me. I, when we first started, we, we have these weekly meetings every Tuesday, although we haven’t had them for a few weeks, and it’s making me nervous. Um, but I would, I would get shaky, um, when we would sit down to talk about it and he would get angry and they were very stressful. And it was this like turning into like what’s authentically happening right now as we talk about money, when we, what, Like, I, uh, just like I said to you just now, like, I can feel this in my body as I’m talking about it. Like, I started saying that to him, like, I can feel the shakiness showing up in my body and I can feel like a sense that I wanna run away really fast from this and I don’t wanna have this conversation. Um, and so being really honest, and then when I was doing that, he started telling me how he would feel and often we’d have similar reactions like he wanted to run too. Um, so the healing was really about like me finally just like, ah, turning into the reality that I had to develop a relationship with money. I had to develop a relationship with all of these things, with my husband, with <laugh>, you know, with time. Um, and it was really scary. And, um, it, and, and if I compare that to where we are now, I would say that there’s still definitely work to be done in terms of my own relationship to money, but also my relationship to my husband, um, when it relates to money. ’cause that is like the hot point for us and has been for the 20 years that we’ve been married, like it always has been. Um, and so we continue to do the work. I can see when he kind of pulls out and it’s like, ah, I gotta go to a meeting and I can’t meet for our time. And then I feel like comfortable with that, like, yeah, yeah, please go and I don’t have to worry about it or deal with it kind of thing. Um, and so it’s very easy, easy for us to fall into that avoidant place where we don’t talk about it and we don’t think about it. And like I said, for the last few weeks we haven’t been doing it and I’m like, I gotta get back on it. I gotta step back in. This is probably why I’m on the podcast right now, so that I can like force myself to do that. You know what I mean? Like, I’m thinking about like divine intervention or something. I would say that so much of it has been about just holding myself in these difficult moments. I mean, just in the same way when I talk to my husband about money, I get nervous and scared and shaky. Uh, the same thing happens when I look at my, my money. Um, when I look at the actual numbers and I’m, and I’m tracking. And when I’m doing that every single day, which I’ve been doing, um, I really have to take a self-compassion break. I have to like hold my chest. I have to tell myself I’m not alone. I have to tell myself that everything is okay. I have to tell myself that I am competent and I can do this money thing. Like there’s, there’s some real stuff that I need to do to get in, get in a really good, secure relationship with money. Um, and I’m doing it, but it’s a process and I think that’s what I really wanna impart to people. It’s not just you look at the numbers and then you know, you quit avoiding and you transition and voila you’re there. It’s not like that. It, there is some healing work and some time. And to know that I think is really important.

Emily (18:02): I’m very actually impressed that you and your husband have both been able to like, identify that you want to avoid and that you want to run away and so forth. And yet have held yourselves to maybe not the weekly standard, but like a standard of meeting periodically and engaging with the subject and doing the work. Um, as you were saying, like physically to get to that point where you can have those conversations. I’m wondering in the time that it’s been since you have been intentionally engaging with one another around the subject of money, um, what positive things you’ve been able to accomplish, like what keeps you coming back to the table even though it has been so difficult?

Danielle (18:39): I feel closer to him when I can hear the way he’s thinking about things and the way he’s framing sort of our money story. And, um, and, and he actually says to me, thank you. When I tell him, you know, what, where I am and how I’m feeling, um, like he’s, he’s really valuing hearing me and I can feel just this, like, I can feel a real tenderness that he has for me when I talk to him about my fears and when I talk to him about why this is so difficult for me. Um, and that, that is, um, that is absolutely the thing that keeps us coming back, right? Like, wow, wow. To feel that sense of tenderness and, and care for each other when, when money for the 20 years we’ve been married, um, has always been, um, just fraught with pain and, uh, disdain and contempt and um, and so knowing that it’s hard but coming back feels really, really good. It feels like courageous. Like, I can do this and um, and I can and I can love fiercely and I can see he can do the same thing. Uh, so yeah, that’s what comes up for me when you ask that.

Emily (20:13): Hmm. That’s, that’s incredible. And it, it speaks also I think greatly to, um, your marriage, your partnership. Um, I think of there’s various aspects of our lives that we can share with our partners. Not everybody shares money and you’re not even necessarily talking about the dollars and cents, you’re talking about sharing the feelings and the fears and the dreams and so forth. And that’s, that’s really, that’s really precious and it can bring people closer together the way that sharing other aspects of your life can as well. This is just kind of one of those examples. I’m really glad to hear, hear that. That’s really lovely. Is there anything else you wanna talk about from kind of that first question, which is like, coming to crisis point and how you came out of that?

Dharma and Connecting to your Purpose

Danielle (20:58): I think this idea of dharma, I’m a huge Stephen Cope fan. Stephen Cope talks about dharma. He’s a yogi and a psychotherapist. And he had his own like mid-career crisis as a, as a therapist in Boston years and years ago. And, um, during this time when I was in my tenure track job and I was feeling all the stress and all the pain and my husband said to me, you like carry anxiety with you at all times. Um, I would have like these Sunday mornings, um, when I had an infant at home, I would go to the coffee shop and just read Stephen Cope, um, his work. And he had a book, what was it? I’m trying to see it on my shelf. Uh, I think it’s, I think it’s called Yoga and the Search for True Self or something like that. Anyway, in it, I, when I was reading it at the coffee shop on those mornings when I was always anxious and I’d have this from 6:00 AM to 7:00 AM ’cause I had a baby at home, 6:00 AM to 7:00 AM on Sunday mornings, was this like, ah, I can just kinda slip into this place where it feels like somebody understands me and the crisis I’m going through. And this is the person that also talks about purpose and dharma from a, from a sort of yogic philosophy, from particularly he, he, he talks about the Bhagavad Gita, which is um, which is this, this scripture that helps us to understand purpose. Uh, and so that was the thing I think that got me it, one, it was the thing that caused some arguments ’cause my husband didn’t get it and he was like, I don’t like this. Um, like, we can’t have a conversation about money because you’re so, like, this is my purpose. This is what I do, this is what I want. Uh, he thought it was so lofty and ridiculous, so it caused that kind of problem. But what it did for me is it the idea of having a dharma, the idea of having a purpose and then just like putting to work the health of my body, time, money, all of those things in alignment with that sense of purpose. That was the thing that kept me moving because those things bore me otherwise, like, oh my gosh, time, money, it’s boring, it’s dumb, I hate it, but if I have like a real why about why I do it, like this is why I do it, it for me it was dharma. Knowing that I’m doing it because I know there are other faculty out there who are having a hard time and I wanna be able to be there for them and I wanna be able to to, to heal, to help heal with them.

Commercial

Emily (23:57): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Connections Between Time and Money: Prioritizing Wellness in Both Areas

Emily (24:48): I would love to talk a little bit more about some of the things that you just mentioned. We’ve touched on this a couple times, the time management, the planning, the weekly plans and so forth. And I want to kind of draw a comparison between managing your time and managing your money and see how well, you know, strategies from one can transfer to the other and maybe in some cases where they break down and these things are very different and can’t be thought of in a similar way. Um, so tell me like, you know, having gone from someone who, who wasn’t doing the management of time and now presumably you’re much better at it because. You want it to be part, you know, enabling you to do what you’re here to do. Um, tell me a little bit about like your practice of time management or how you teach other people about it. And let’s just start talking through those analogies with money.

Danielle (25:35): I do weekly planning in my program that I have for faculty. And every Friday we get together and we talk about our career wellness or we, I have them meditate on their career wellness destination, this is where I wanna be. So like, let’s step into that, that let’s feel into that, what is that? And then now let’s set an intention for the week that supports that. Um, so, uh, I would say that as a person, I, I do things, uh hmm. I have to act on things before they sort of integrate. Um, so I had to do the weekly planning with my people for a long time, for probably at least a year before I was really getting good at it sort of myself. Um, and I, that same thing with my dissertation. When I wrote my dissertation, I had to be in the field. I did ethnographic research, I had to be in the field before I could really write my methods section. Like I’m just not the kind of person who can like, you know, put it out there, make a plan, and then, and then move forward with it. Like, I have to act on it, I have to feel it, it has to be part of me kind of thing. So I think that that’s the one thing, like just developing a relationship with the plan every week. And that’s the thing I say to them every time we come together, the purpose of weekly planning is to develop a relationship with our weak so that we can self compassionately protect ourselves, our future selves protect, you know, um, our, our needs and our wants kind of thing. So, so it’s this like, here’s our why, this is why we’re coming together, right? Here’s the, here’s the big why, the career wellness destination, here’s the little why, this is why we’re doing it this week. And um, and doing that with them every week, week after week after week after week really allowed me to integrate that into me and to, um, and to my own practice and develop my own relationship with, um, with time. Because before that it was like I would read what somebody said about time management and what somebody else said about time management, but until I like made it my own, I really couldn’t do it well. Um, so there’s always space for them to, to do it their way as well. It’s not just about me, but I do always want to remind us all of the why before we do the planning.

Emily (28:11): Yeah. So what I’m curious about in trying to draw an analogy with, we’ll say budget planning, right, is the analogous, analogous, um, area there, and it probably wouldn’t happen on a weekly basis. It might be more of like a monthly or quarterly kind of thing if we’re talking about money. But what I’m wondering about is when you and the people you work with are creating these plans, um, what’s the, I mean, you, you said, you know, we have to keep in mind our overall goal, career wellness goal, but then within that, are you emphasizing like accomplishing something this week or rather putting in time for something this week that will like move your career forward versus just keeping your head above water and getting the grading and, you know, all this stuff that doesn’t really move the needle? Like is that more like what you’re talking about, like making sure you make space for overall progress or is it more about, um, scheduling in time for, um, self-care or, or like, or all of that? Or like how do you think about maybe the different components of the week that should be present?

Danielle (29:16): Yes. The, the bigger picture is we’re trying to be more well in our careers. And so with that, we’re always scheduling in rest. You know, you spend three hours a week with each of your classes, well, there needs to be three hours of rest time for you, space that you get to do whatever you need to do to feel more connected to yourself. You know, body, mind, spirit. Um, so there’s that piece, but then there’s also the piece of like, let’s figure out what our priorities are. Um, this week I have all of these things on my list for work, but what’s actually priority and how can we, Martha Beck talks about, and I always use this, she talks about the three Bs, right? How can we, like, if you look at something and you don’t wanna do it and you have this weird relationship to it, like, oh, I really don’t wanna work on this thing this week. How can you one, bag it, how can you two, barter it? Like, and she says barter it is just sort of like give it to somebody else, right? Um, and three, how can you, um, better it? Like I’m gonna, I don’t wanna grade, but I’m gonna sit in this chair that I love and listen to music that I love while I grade. So, so, uh, and then I had, I had a client once say, and then we should do botch it, so do it imperfectly, right? And um, so, so we go through that like what is the list? What are your list of to-dos? Now let’s just get rid of ever-, let’s get rid of all the things we can get rid of. Let’s delay the things we can delay. Let’s, uh, let’s commit to doing things imperfectly, that kind of thing. And so now we’re gonna find our priorities for the week. Now we’re gonna find, um, like I said, our time that we’re gonna do rest. Now we’re gonna find time that we need to take care of our ourselves. Like, are you scheduling lunch every day? You should have a lunch every day. And that is not something faculty ever think about, right? Like, oh, I haven’t eaten for 12 hours. <laugh>. Like, that is common. That is very common. So those kinds of things. And just staying in relationship to the week and knowing that that weekly relationship is gonna contribute to the larger goal of career wellness.

Emily (31:33): I just love this advice on its own. I mean, if this were a time management podcast, we would just talk about it because I, I love that stuff. Um, but I’m still trying to draw these like analogies with money. Um, and I’m thinking about how when we’re planning a budget we have to plan for, and the typical term, which you actually mentioned earlier is like needs and wants and also saving. And I feel like the saving is more like the rest actually that you were just speaking about because it’s, um, it’s shoring up your ability to roll with punches in the future. It’s shoring up your own health, um, both in the long term and in the short term. And so that to me is like, it’s something that you can neglect on a weekly basis, monthly basis, maybe even for a year, maybe even for a few years. But it will come back with a vengeance if you never ever address it. Um, and it’s so much better to build it in cyclically like on a weekly basis like you’re talking about. So that to me is like a saving, kind of like saving, um, building in your own, again, ability to kind of continue to live your life with all the like, you know, the, the punches that you know, life is gonna throw your way. Um, and then also like thinking about the needs and the wants and the priorities. Um, like you were saying about okay, there’s maybe a list of tasks that need to happen. There may be a list of things that you want to spend money on in the course of a month, let’s say. And some of those are more important than others. Some of them can be delayed, some of them can be frugalized, <laugh>, some of them with a little bit of, you know, creativity. You might be able to use something for free or lower cost. Um, some things may just need to be deferred into the future. And so that’s kind of the analogy I would draw there of like, but with money, and probably with your time you have some big rocks that are just standard, right? Like you gotta pay your housing costs every single month. You have to spend a certain amount of money on food every single month. There’s gonna be some staples going on. But similarly in, in your time management, there are probably staples depending on what your job actually is and what your life consists of. There are some things you gotta do, um, every single day. Yeah. Do you have any comments on, on that?

Danielle (33:41): I love the way you just broke that down. Um, and, and drew an alignment to, uh, money. And I will say that money is something I’m still building a relationship with, and so I don’t think I can speak about it in the way I just spoke about time, right? And so, and I think that’s really important to say, like, it’s really important to be really honest about that. Like every day I sit down and I do something that helps me to feel inspired with money, right? Like have a little mantra or I tell myself this is why I’m doing this. And then I look at my, and then I look at my tracking and just like developing that relationship that isn’t a scared, shaky relationship, um, feels like the only thing I can do right now. And so having this sort of big eagle view of my money at the moment is really hard. But having that, that, and I eagle view versus mouse view, I’m again drawing from Martha Beck, mouse view is this like, you know, the the little daily thing I can do to stay in relationship and to develop a deeper relationship, that’s all I’m doing right now. And so talking about it, um, in big lofty terms with somebody who’s an expert on this feels pretty intimidating. ’cause it’s just not where I am yet. Um, and I, and I want people out there who really are hearing this and being like, oh my god, I can relate to that and I’m scared and I wanna get away from it. And, and hearing all the financial terms and all of, and hearing people who are really good at it talk about it all the time, that is scary. And it makes me wanna shut down. I want those people to hear me say that it takes time. And I know I just said it, but I wanna say it again.

Emily (35:37): Thank you so much for pointing that out because part of the purpose of this podcast is, um, and the listeners, hopefully regular listeners will know this, but you may not, is that I interview regular people. Like yeah, they may be regular people who are willing to talk about money, which is not everybody in the population, but I don’t interview other experts almost ever because I think it’s much more relatable, useful, actionable to hear from people who are more similar to the listener rather than more similar, like to me who’s like devoted my career to this, right? So like we already have one of me on the podcast. We don’t necessarily need two <laugh>, at least not every episode.

Danielle (36:08): Totally.

Using Automation and Routines to Support Wellness

Emily (36:09): So that’s kind of my like, uh, approach there. So I’m really, really glad that you said that. And I actually, I’m gonna think more about this mouse view versus eagle view <laugh>, uh, terminology that you just pointed out. And like, yeah, what can be done to draw the connections between the two? Like if you have an eagle view, how do you develop mouse? Uh, I don’t know, habits or actions? And if you only have mouse views and habits and actions, like how do you get up to the eagle view as well? Um, one thing I wanted to ask you about, again, in this analogy between like money and time management is I really love automation in the area of money, and I’m wondering how much automation comes into your view of time management. And by automation I could mean something as simple as like, well actually something you just said reminded me of, uh, Kendra Adachi of the Lazy Genius. Are you familiar with this brand?

Danielle (36:55): No.

Emily (36:56): Okay. So what you said earlier that reminded me of her is that, uh, she’s very intentional to schedule her lunch because she realized that she was not taking lunch like ever and that it was ineffective overall for her wellbeing and also for her work to not be taking lunch breaks anyway. One of her so-called lazy genius principles is decide once, and that’s a form of automation. It’s not necessarily carrying things out automatically, but it’s okay, I only had to think about this one time. This decision is gonna last for a while and I can just carry out that decision without revisiting it every single time it comes up. So that’s kind of a form of automation. Um, so yeah, I’m wondering what you think about that in, in the area of, of time management.

Danielle (37:35): Hmm. The thing that is really automation for me is when I sit down to do weekly planning, I have questions for inner wisdom. Because when you look at your week and you’re like, ah, I don’t know how this is gonna work and I still need to, to contact this person and figure this logistic out and blah, blah, blah, all these things are happening, right? And you don’t always know the answers to everything. You don’t always, um, know how to exactly plan. How am I going to find the capacity to get such and such done this week? Um, that might be an inner wisdom question or whatever it is, but if you just have those questions listed and then they’re not like taking up space in your brain and they’re not like, uh, and you’re not ruminating on it and you’re not getting, um, like scared about that. And then after you know what your questions are, you take space to go listen to what the answers are. So I’m gonna, now that I’ve done my weekly planning, I’m gonna gonna schedule some time this weekend to just go for a walk and really jus- like I look at my questions before I go for my walk, and then I’m really just gonna let the answers come to me as they need to, right? Um, and trusting that they will, and they will, they will, I mean sometimes they’ll say, don’t do this yet. Like pause and, you know, postpone this until next month or something. They might not have an answer in that way, but at least you have some kind of an answer.

Emily (39:02): The automation is the listing of the questions. And then scheduling reflection time again because you mentioned earlier like not, not wanting it to take over all of your brain space to ruminate on these questions. Like you’re just gonna give it a dedicated time where you’re like, I know from doing this process many times if I just have these questions working in my subconscious during this time, a few answers will arise

Danielle (39:25): 100%.

Emily (39:26): I’m actually also thinking about in terms of automations like routines. So have you developed, for example, a morning routine or a sitting down to work routine or an evening routine or anything like that? Or do you like those or do you recommend them?

Danielle (39:39): I do. I love the getting up in the morning and doing what I’ve been calling a trust practice, um, which is just kind of like, um, feeling into gratitude or feeling into a celebration of yourself or anything that’s gonna make you feel good. And I call ’em trust practices because they allow you to trust the moment they allow you to trust your journey. Um, and if you don’t do them, you often will feel distrust and like you can’t do the things you want to do in your life. Like you’re not gonna be able to make it happen. Um, so I would say one, some kind of a trust practice and usually for me, um, I am thinking about things I’m grateful for and I’m thinking about ways I’m really proud of myself and in the evening I’m always doing right before bed. I’m always just taking a second to really feel into my career wellness destination. Just like, this is what I really want and this is how it feels to have that. Um, and I do that just because, um, you know, those people who, who talk a lot like in the spiritual world, right? And manifestation world, they talk about that. And um, and how if you do that just before bed, you know, it sort of sets your psyche up for, for the next day to do things that are in alignment with that. I also love Cal Newport’s shutting it down thing at the end of the workday. Oh my gosh, I feel so much better when I do that, that kind of like, okay, I need to get this done, this done and this done first thing tomorrow. And then these are the things that I need to think through for the rest of the week. Like, and then now I’m gonna check the box because I have his like calendar. I’m gonna check the box that says shut down. I did the shutdown and I am done. And I’ve noticed that I don’t look at my phone as much. Um, when I do that, I just feel better and the whole day because I’m just intentional about how I spend my time.

Emily (41:41): I also have used Cal Newport’s, um, time block, time block planner, which has that shutdown, uh, checkbox in it. And I don’t always use it, but when, as you said, when I do, I certainly feel like a difference. And I’m actually trying to draw another analogy with money here. And this would again, probably happen on like a monthly or yearly basis instead of on a daily basis. But like knowing when you can call something good enough and done and that you don’t need to devote the additional hours that day. Analogously, I’ve done enough with my money this month. I’ve hit my minimum goals. It’s okay if I haven’t used every single last dollar optimally or whatever. Like, it’s okay to have some flexibility and to set your goals realistically, <laugh> like, I mean, Cal wouldn’t want you to schedule, you know, 12 hours of work into a six hour day. That’s not feasible at all. And so similarly, like you need to rightsize your money goals according to the means that you have at that time so that you’re not in this like dissatisfied feeling all the time. Like you have to get to a peaceful conclusion <laugh> at least some of the time with your time and your money. So yeah, that’s just another analogy I was thinking of there. I wonder if you could leave us with maybe one or two self-compassion strategies. You’ve actually already brought up a couple in the course of the interview, but maybe like one or two more that you haven’t brought up yet that we could use across different areas of life wellness or management, including money.

Self-Compassion Practices for Academics

Danielle (43:06): Yeah. So the first one I brought up was a self-compassion break. And this is, uh, from Kristin Neff and Chris Germer’s work in mindful self-compassion. And essentially it is when you know, notice you’re nervous, and it might be while you’re planning, it might be like while you’re planning your week, it might be while you are working through your budget, it might be something else. Um, maybe it’s, maybe it’s even your body, right? Like, I don’t want to exercise right now. And everything in me is like, eh, I don’t wanna exercise. And so a self-compassion break would be to just feel those feelings. Oh yeah, this is what it feels like in my body to feel terrible about this, whatever it is, the anxiety, the stress, the anger, whatever. And then you place your hands either over your chest or somewhere else, that is, that feels very supportive, right? You could like cup your face or um, you could hug yourself, whatever it is, but you’re finding a way. And I really like wrapping a blanket around myself, like really just feeling the warmth of the blanket and letting and, and doing it tightly so you can really feel it tightly. But that that sort of nervous system thing where you’re really giving your nervous system some soothing, um, and then you’re just gonna lean into your own hands or into the blanket and let all the feelings you’re feeling be there while it holds you or while your hands hold you. And then you just remind yourself, I am not alone in this. This is life and life is hard. And, um, everybody’s on their own journey and everybody deals with hardships kind of thing. Um, the other thing is you wanna soothe yourself with words. If you can find something that feels really good to you, so you know, this too shall pass, or I’m doing this for a reason, I’m doing this because I want to, you know, for me it would be to fulfill my dharma, whatever it is. Um, so just you’re, you’re holding yourself with your hands, you’re holding yourself with your words and you’re reminding yourself you’re not alone. Those are the big self-compassion, um, pieces to a self-compassion break. Um, so that’s one way.

Danielle (45:24): The other way is just pausing. I, I think pausing is huge. Like, I’m moving through my day and I’m starting to get stressed and this is happening and I’m triggered. I just went to a faculty meeting <laugh> and I’m triggered because faculty meetings are, I don’t know why they seem to be like triggering 80% of the time, but you walk out of there and, um, for many of us, we just keep, continue on with our day and um, instead pause, right? And I could do this too, especially when I, as I’m developing this relationship with money and I’m trying to heal my relationship with money,

Connecting with Dr. Danielle De La Mare

Emily (46:00): Thank you so much for explaining how to be more self-compassionate in these, you know, times when we might need a little bit of extra. And certainly I know there are people in the audience who are gonna be feeling this with respect to money and will appreciate those strategies, um, when it comes to opening up their bank account or meeting with their partner or whatever, whatever is, um, causing those that trigger to come up. So thank you so much for that. And if someone is listening and they realize that they’re kind of in the, the audience of people that you serve, um, can you tell us just a tiny bit more about how they can find you, how they can learn more about your work and what it looks like to work with you?

Danielle (46:35): Yeah, thank you. Uh, selfcompassionateprofessor.com. You can go there and you can come to one of our monthly coffee chats, um, where we just make space for career wellness. So we spend an hour every month, anybody who shows up and we talk about anything you wanna talk about, whether it’s like toxic workplace, feeling like you, you know, are burned out, whatever it is, you come, you chat. It’s, it’s free, it’s an hour every month. Sign up selfcompassionateprofessor.com, just click on Coffee chats. And then I also have Self-Compassionate Professor, the podcast, um, for people who, who are interested in, in that as well.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (47:14): Excellent. Thank you so much. And let’s end with the, uh, question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that can be something that we have touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

Danielle (47:29): It doesn’t have to be perfect. You don’t have to have it all figured out. All you have to do is be in relationship to your money. That’s all you have to do.

Emily (47:42): Could not have phrased it better myself. Thank you so much, Danielle, it was absolutely a pleasure to speak with you.

Danielle (47:46): Yay, you too.

Outtro

Emily (47:58): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by me and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This Grad Student Channeled Her Financial Exuberance into Teaching and Coaching Her Peers (Part 2)

November 4, 2024 by Jill Hoffman

In this episode, Emily interviews Elle Rathbun, a 5th-year PhD candidate at UCLA. This is a continuation of a conversation started in the last episode. Last year, Elle shifted her financial education efforts into an official position with the UCLA financial wellness office, through which she delivered presentations and provided one-on-one coaching. Having a 75% position with the university required her to adjust how she managed both her time and money. Elle and Emily conclude the interview by sharing ideas for how the listeners can start helping their peers at their own universities with respect to their finances.

Links mentioned in the Episode

This Grad Student Channeled Her Financial Exuberance into Teaching and Coaching Her Peers

Teaser

Elle (00:00): Because I, I grew up with so much anxiety regarding spending and money that is, I, I think it was actually really good for my health, mental health that I sort of figured out where, where to cut, um, that anxiety from just because I needed to be able to save time in order to do my job, um, to do both jobs and get enough sleep.

Introduction

Emily (00:28): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (00:57): This is Season 19, Episode 6, and today my guest is Elle Rathbun, a 5th-year PhD candidate at UCLA. This is a continuation of a conversation started in the last episode. Last year, Elle shifted her financial education efforts into an official position with the UCLA financial wellness office, through which she delivered presentations and provided one-on-one coaching. Having a 75% position with the university required her to adjust how she managed both her time and money. Elle and I conclude the interview by sharing ideas for how the listeners can start helping their peers at their own universities with respect to their finances.

Emily (01:37): You’re probably listening to this podcast because you’re interested in improving your own practice of personal finance, and you want to learn the best PhD-specific strategies to do so. Well, you don’t have to listen through the entire episode archive to do so. Instead, go to PFforPhDs.com/advice/ and enter your name and email there. You’ll receive a document that contains short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast to my final question regarding my guests’ best financial advice. The document is updated with each new episode release. Plus, you’ll be subscribed to my mailing list to receive all the latest updates there. Again, that URL was PFforPhDs.com/advice/. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s19e6/. Without further ado, here’s part 2 of my interview with Elle Rathbun.

Financial Wellness: Struggling with Motivation

Emily (02:47): I’m curious what you learned once you, or you said you had to get up to speed on student loans and so forth. That makes sense. Um, once you started talking outside of your like biosciences peer group, were there any, aside from the financial things you already brought up that were more like taxes and bureaucratic kinds of things, any financial patterns that you noticed or issues about the PhD community more broadly at UCLA? Like what were people struggling with or what, what do they have questions about aside from retirement, aside from taxes, aside from pay checks.

Elle (03:14): One of the main things was motivation. Um, and so this is mostly to speak about the wellness side of it, but it has a huge impact on the financial side of it. And so, um, people just didn’t seem, it’s really hard to convince someone to save for something that’s like 30 plus years out, right? And so, um, a lot of the people I talked with, um, they, they just needed to feel a little bit more motivated or they’re like, I know I need to start investing. I have no idea how. Um, but also I think credit cards were a huge aspect of it as well. Um, I think there’s a lot of misinformation, um, about how to pay off credit cards, um, and when to pay off credit cards. Um, and so, so I think credit card, like debt in general, um, and student loans, uh, as well as just motivation of how to get organized to the point that you then felt comfortable going forth and either paying off that debt or investing or just saving or just spending, um, certain things. And so there was that, there was also just what, what resources are available. Um, UCLA is phenomenal in terms of offering so many student resources. Um, besides financial wellness, we also have, uh, like loan services where you can talk about your student loans and figure out a repayment strategy, but student legal services was incredibly helpful to me when I was figuring out, um, some stuff with like my employment and, and the pay schedule and overpayments. Um, and, uh, so I think there are just so many resources that students are not necessarily aware of or they needed to be reminded of. And so just being able to point them in the right direction, um, was a huge thing that we talked about. Um, and it wasn’t a huge burden to me. I was like, oh, there’s an office specifically for that, and they’re much more capable of talking about that. Um, so I would just redirect them to there.

Emily (05:03): That’s one of those great advantages of being a student that you might not realize until you’re no longer affiliated with the university is like there are so many resources available to you and a lot of them are free or low cost because they’re designed for students. And yeah, once you exit the university system, you’re on your own and you have to pay for everything. So like, yeah, get all your checkups, your financial checkups, your legal checkups, whatever needs to happen, like before you leave the university.

Elle (05:27): Yeah, absolutely. And I will say also that there are people who before graduate school, whether they’re master’s program, uh, or PhD or what have you, um, they would, they worked right? They, a lot of them worked in the UC system. And so when I helped a, there were a couple people who I helped create a, a Roth IRA with, I would just, they would screen share or I would sit next to them, um, and they would see, because uc use- the uc system uses Fidelity as, uh, its brokerage institution. They would see a retirement account with like tens of thousands of dollars in there. And they’d be like, is that mine? And I’m like, yeah, that’s yours. That’s all yours. Um, this is the type of account it’s in. This is, these are some of the restrictions. Just know it’s there and know where it is and know what you could do with it. Um, and so that was actually really nice to see that, um, you know, a lot of people don’t necessarily pay too much attention to their withholdings and um, and things like that, which is totally fair. People are busy, but also, um, you’re, you’re paying into that for, for a reason. And so it’s already there. You may as well may as well know that it’s there and know how to use it.

Emily (06:30): That speaks to the power of pay yourself first, that you can literally forget that money was being removed from your paycheck for that, you know, great purpose and oh, discover it like free money later. You didn’t even, you didn’t even miss it. That’s the whole point.

Elle (06:44): Absolutely.

Working for Financial Wellness as a PhD Student

Emily (06:45): I’m also curious about the logistics of you working, um, for this office. And I understand you’re not working with them anymore, right? So it was maybe a nine month, eight month kind of period, right?

Elle (06:56): Yeah, uh, the beginning of November to the end of June.

Emily (06:59): Okay. Were you paid W2?

Elle (07:02): Yes.

Emily (07:02): Okay. And so how did this work with your existing funding or your existing stipend?

Elle (07:06): So my income was W2, um, for the first, when I first became employed through the Department of Neurology, which is the department my PI is associated with. Um, and so they would both appear, so I had to get explicit permission from my PI to sign off so I could have a higher percentage of effort. Um, so it was basically 10 hours a week or 25% effort for this financial wellness position. Um, and then I was at 50% effort for my graduate student researcher position, uh, with neurology. Um, and then things had to become rebalanced because that grant that I applied to did get funded. And so, um, so then I was partially had partial effort on, uh, for neurology. The 25% financial wellness remained the same. And then I was a certain percentage on my own grant, which was not W2. But now is.

Emily (08:02): Yeah, that’s the highest percentage I’ve heard of a graduate student going up to in terms of employment. So it’s not at all surprising to me that you had to get like the special permission and everything to do it. And then in terms of like your own work and your own time management, did that 10 hour per week that you were devoting to the financial wellness office, was that like over and above a 40 or more than 40 that you were already working?

Elle (08:22): Yes, very much so. Um, and so it is one of the things that I had laid out in that initial email to my PI requesting to, to be able to apply for this, and then eventually, if I got it, um, that he would sign off on this. Um, and he’s been nothing but supportive. He’s been phenomenal, um, in this whole process. Um, but one of the things I laid out was this is not a zero sum game. This will not take away from my time or effort in lab. Um, I am one of those people who the more things I have going on, the more productive I become. Um, and, uh, so, so I maintained many hours in lab, um, and that never faltered during my time. One thing that I had to come to terms with was I had to be okay with spending more. So I knew that if there was a way to save time in my personal life, um, even if that meant spending a little bit more, I had to take it. So I didn’t meal prep as often, um, and I didn’t drive out of my way to get the cheaper gas because that takes like 20 minutes. Um, and so, so there were things that I just had to come to terms with. Um, I, it was definitely a net gain. Um, I was paid $24 an hour for that position, and so, um, that added up in a month. But, um, because I, I grew up with so much anxiety regarding spending and money, that is, I, I think it was actually really good for my health, mental health that I sort of figured out where, where to cut, um, that anxiety from just because I needed to be able to save time in order to do my job, um, to do both jobs and get enough sleep, um, and serve as a mentor to, you know, my undergraduate students and a rotation student who is, um, uh, working on my project. Um, and just to make sure I wasn’t slipping in any ma- major areas, I had to be able to, to pay for saving time.

Emily (10:13): So this, tell me if you thought about it this way, but I guess the way that I would think about this is that despite the fact that it was associated with the university, you had to get the special permission you’re paid by the university and all of that. Essentially what you were doing is you had a side job, you had a side hustle, maybe you were doing it, you know, during your regular, what other people would consider their, you know, nine to five. You had permission to do it, but essentially it was a side job. And really what this is, is kind of a hobby that you decided to monetize, right? So like, it’s something that you clearly had been devoting time to before that point on a volunteer basis, and then you switched at least some or maybe all of that effort into this paid position. Um, and so it absolutely makes sense to me. Like it’s essentially like you took on a side hustle, right?

Elle (10:56): Absolutely. Yeah.

Emily (10:57): And then the other thing that I’m thinking about this is that, um, just what you were talking about there of like making the decisions of like, okay, I need to manage my time a little bit differently. I need to manage my money a little bit differently because I had this extra position. Probably all the work that you’d been doing in YNAB and everything really helped you make those decisions because you already had a really good perspective on what you’re spending, how you were managing your time and so forth. And so it was probably very easy for you to make decisions about what you could shift now that you had more money, but a little bit less time.

Elle (11:27): Yeah, it did. It made me, I, I sort of looked at my budget and said, okay, um, if I didn’t meal prep, how much would I spend on eating at the hospital cafeteria or, uh, getting something from the store or, um, just, you know, going somewhere else and, and dining out. Um, and so, so I knew exactly how much I was comfortable increasing my food budget, my gas budget, um, and uh, I think those were the two main things. Um, but I also had to look at my calendar. So I think part of it is financial. Absolutely. And part of it was also where is this coming from in terms of time? So I stopped giving strangers advice on Reddit, <laugh>, that was one of the boundaries for me. I’m like, okay, um, I can still read stuff and still look for opportunities, um, and resources, um, but I’m gonna spend less time writing paragraphs. Um, so

Emily (12:14): I also had to create a Reddit boundary with myself because I loved it so much. I could not continue at all.

Elle (12:21): <laugh>. Um, yeah. And I’ve, you know, and after, uh, ending the position, um, that I, I sort of slipped back into that. Um, and so, but really figuring out where that time was going to be coming from was essential. Um, and just relying on every day I would just like wake up. I had no idea what I did the day before. I had no idea what I was doing that day. I just had my Google calendar tell me everything. Um, and so, um, so yeah, it was really, it was, it was very busy. Um, but I loved it so much. I don’t think there’s ever been another time or activity in my life where I felt like I was making such a huge positive difference in other people’s lives. Um, and so that was incredibly rewarding to me.

Emily (13:02): But you’re not with them now, right? Because I think you said

Elle (13:05): I’m not with them now

Emily (13:06): Sometimes, like the structure changed, but you, you ended the position basically last June.

Elle (13:11): Yes. So, um, I got my NRSA funded, um, and that started in 2024. And so the NIH has the stipulation that I can’t work more than 25% elsewhere. Um, and there was a little bit confusion around that. Um, I thought, great, I can, that’s financial wellness, 25%. Um, however, I’m at 21% effort with neurology. So essentially what it boiled down to is, um, if I had taken the financial wellness position for this coming year, I would be at 46%, which is significantly different. Um, and, and then, so, so I wouldn’t be able to take that position. Um, and I would still be able to continue it theoretically, um, if I was willing to, to decrease my neurology appointment. So essentially I would be paid less for the same work. ’cause I’m really working, um, for neurology no matter what.

Emily (13:59): Yeah, the PhD has to get finished.

Elle (14:01): Yeah, exactly. I’m like, well, I have no other choice. Um, but so that was, so that became the question to me is, uh, am I willing to essentially not get paid anymore to keep this position? Um, and because I had to make sacrifices in my life that cost more, um, I wasn’t able to, I decided against, um, against maintaining and keeping that position. Um, and so, um, I I’m so excited, like financial, well, they’re right across the street from my, my lab. Um, I told them I will be at their events. I’m still in touch with, uh, coaches in that office and with the director. Um, but, uh, in terms of can I do 10 hours a week for the next year, um, without additional pay? Um, the, the answer to that was no.

Emily (14:44): Yeah. And so I’m wondering, you know, you mentioned your Reddit usage came back <laugh> once the, uh, once the position ended. Have you made any other shifts to like sort of scratch this itch in the personal areas of your life? Like, are you back to chatting with your peers more like what’s changed?

Elle (14:59): Absolutely. Um, yes. So, um, I think my peers are tired of listening to me. Um, I do post a lot on our Slack. Um, we have a, I I created financial, uh, channel on our slack. So if there’s something that I discover, um, for instance, you can pay taxes with PayPal, um, <laugh>. And, um, uh, so, so that’s one way I scratched the, the, the NSID or the neuroscience and PhD specific itch. Um, I also started volunteering for junior achievement in SoCal, and so that’s more focused on educating, um, young people, so middle schoolers and high school students. And so that’s been incredibly rewarding. And I just started this summer, um, because I knew I, this, there is an itch to scratch and their headquarters are fortunately really close to where I live. Um, and so, uh, and so just doing a lot of like, work in the community, um, and, and talking to individuals and sort of just always being open. I like if I’m introducing myself, um, not necessarily the first thing I say, but also it’s always, it’s a huge part of my identity in that like, I have a passion for personal finances. And so, um, and so I just have friends who aren’t associated with the university at all, who are then open to budgeting. I have friends who do a lot of like freelance work in the entertainment industry, and so I talk about YNAB with them. Um, and so I think just sort of putting myself out there, I I, there are things that I don’t need to share. I don’t need to share what, what banks I bank with or my net worth or anything to have a, have a good discussion in that like, oh, I love my budget budgeting software, or, oh, I have so many thoughts about student loan repayments, um, and things like that. So yeah, just putting myself out there and, and doing more work in the community, but on a more flexible schedule and timeline.

Commercial

Emily (16:46): Emily here for a brief interlude! I’m hard at work behind the scenes updating my suite of tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2024. These educational workshops explain how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. For the 2024 tax season starting in January 2025, I’m offering live and pre-recorded workshops for US citizen/resident graduate students and postdocs and non-resident graduate students and postdocs. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they host one or more of these workshops for you and your peers? I’d love to receive a warm introduction to a potential sponsor this fall so we can hit the ground running in January serving those early bird filers. You can find more information about hosting these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Now back to our interview.

Writing a Book About Lessons Learned During Financial Coaching Sessions

Emily (18:02): So I see a lot of, um, parallels with my situation when I was in graduate school, um, engaging in many of the same activities. Um, what I was doing at the time was blogging about personal finance, because blogging was a thing back then, um, 10 plus years ago. So I think because I had this blog and it wasn’t like anonymous, like I would, you know, link to it, you know, on like my personal, like social media page or something like, and I would talk about it with my peers too. I was open, it was clear to other people that I was open to talking about this stuff because I talked about it on the internet. Um, now fast forward, you know, we’re in 2024, blogging is not so much of a thing now, but, uh, creating social content is, so you’ve talked a lot about creating actual in-person face-to-face connections, you know, with your peers and with the, the people you’ve met through the financial wellness office, and that’s amazing. I’m wondering if you do any content creation or if you’re interested in that, um, sort of for the wider internet.

Elle (18:55): Ah, great question. I am actually writing a book, um, which is nowhere near, uh, being ready for a manuscript or anything. Um, but something that came up as, uh, a QuestBridge scholar and a PhD student is that a lot of people just need to know where to start. Um, and I, I think a lot of people, and probably a lot of listeners know like, okay, I know I need to invest. I know I need to save, I know I need to pay off debt. Um, but it’s really hard to know what order to do things in, um, and to feel comfortable in whatever you pick. And so, um, I’m sort of putting together lessons that I’ve learned for, from those coaching appointments, um, into a book that will hopefully be available for very, very cheap or free, um, and, and sort of putting that together in a more synthesized, very thoughtful way. Um, I do avoid social media, um, just for my own like mental health and benefit. Um, Reddit is really as far as I go, Reddit and LinkedIn. Um, but I’ve never really like posted on LinkedIn, um, except for like one review article that I wrote. And so, um, but yeah, so I, I do want to have like a choose your own adventure book. Um, hopefully physical, but maybe just published, um, as an ebook as well. Um, and that’s sort of the brainchild of conversations I’ve had with, with fellow QuestBridge students and with the founder of QuestBridge as well. So they’ve been hugely supportive even after I’ve long graduated from undergrad in, in helping alumni try to figure out where, where to go from here. Like, okay, great, you have, you started your new job, um, now what? And, and I think it’s, that’s not, that’s not a unique situation for people to be in. I think that’s very widespread. So, um, yes, uh, that, that will eventually come out. Um,

Emily (20:37): I’m so glad to hear that my question was not a suggestion, honestly, <laugh>, because social media can be, as you already know, because you’re not really using many forms of it, um, such an incredible, uh, time suck. And it also doesn’t necessarily, some people can blow up from it and, you know, make it their whole thing or their whole business or whatever. But I think because you have this other career <laugh> that you’re pursuing, um, a book is an amazing like, place to put all of your like thoughts and knowledge and, and observations and what you would guide other people to do. And it’s such a, I I’m a reader, like I love consuming books. And so I just think it’s a wonderful format, like for teaching, and you can obviously have a great teaching experience through a book and not have it take over your entire life <laugh> the way that social media can. So I actually really love like the balance of your striking, and you obviously need to strike that balance because we’ve talked about the time management, like you can’t be on socials like all day long because you have so much to do. Um, so I’m, I’m really, I’m really glad to hear that and I would love to, you know, when it’s finished, like I’ll help promote it, like let me know, you know, podcast listeners I’m sure would be interested in, in seeing it as well. So that’s amazing. I’m really glad you’re working on that project.

Elle (21:42): Thank you. Yeah. Um, I’m very, I’m very excited about it and I think I, I, in terms of content creation, I do do it like I do investing. I set it, forget it. Like I don’t want to have to maintain something, um, because I know that it’ll just always be omnipresent. Um, and, and so I would like to focus on, on my research, um, but I absolutely want to to sort of, uh, compile everything that I’ve learned and, and put it out there because I’m gonna do it anyway. Um, may as well be something that’s accessible.

Supporting Financial Institutional Knowledge at Your University

Emily (22:12): Yes. I’m so glad to hear that. Maybe there are some other listeners to the podcast who, like you listening for a long time, you know, got really excited about personal finances, wanted to, you know, read the books. Consume other <inaudible> Learn a lot and they have a lot of insight into how things work at their university in particular, and all the idiosyncrasies that go along with their, their own experience as a graduate student at their university. Um, do you have any suggestions for listeners on how they might do some of the things that you’ve done or similar things, just how to help their peers because they have so much of institutional knowledge and how can they pass that on?

Elle (22:47): Yes. Institutional knowledge is the first phrase that popped into my mind. So, um, do whatever is sustainable and if there’s one particular person who’s driving this, um, or one particular person, for instance, like a student affairs officer who will be at the university for a long time or even a professor, um, if they are okay with just like owning a Google Drive, that’s really what my resources are. They’re just all in a Google Drive. I can share it with anyone, it’s publicly available. Um, people can share the links to it. I don’t care if anyone from outside of UCLA sees it, it’s great. Um, but sort of just, I think whether it’s an individual effort or a group effort, just start. Um, so if you give a presentation, um, even if it’s 15 minutes of how to sign up for direct deposit or how to enroll in your university’s retirement plan, et cetera, um, just write it and just put it somewhere. And I think once you have somewhere to put it, then it makes writing it even easier. And a lot of the content I’ve created and a lot of the resources I created took me maybe an hour, sometimes less, sometimes a little bit more, but just having a place to stick it where it could be organized. Um, and then I can create copies of, for instance, I create copies of my managing finances presentation for orientation every year and I edit it. Um, but it always just gives me a launching point. And so, um, finding a place to stick that institutional knowledge and then just, just doing it or hosting a conversation, um, creating an outline of, um, of what you might wanna talk about with your peers. Maybe there’s a question you don’t know the answer to that, um, that maybe just a discussion with a few people who are older or have been in the program longer, um, that they can answer, I think is, is huge. Um, so few people know exactly what they’re doing, <laugh>. Um, and so I think the more we talk about it, especially with people in similar situations with us as us, um, are are is incredibly useful just to have those conversations and then, you know, someone can just take notes and then stick it in whatever Google drive or box account, um, that they have. But, you know, it’s, it’s surprising how quickly those resources build up once you just dedicate yourself to, okay, every time I have a discussion that’s a little bit more structured, every time I have a presentation that’s a little bit structured, um, this is where I’m going to put it, um, I think is useful. Even if that’s like a, something that’s pinned on a Slack channel, which is currently what mine is. <laugh>. Yeah,

Emily (25:13): I think that makes so much sense. Um, especially the part about like where you started, which is to find like a sponsor who’s going to, whose tenure at the institution is gonna last longer than any one individual graduate students. Um, I love the idea of asking a staff member or a faculty member to house that, um, so they can for, you know, years and so to speak, generations of students to come can keep pointing to it. Another suggestion to throw in there is to maybe involve a student organization, like your graduate student organization in your school or your university or even at the departmental level, if that’s where you went to start, like that’s where you started. Those institutions, although the people change, the group itself stays on for, you know, decades. And so that could be another place too, how these kinds of resources, and I love that the way you phrased it as like, um, sort of a collaborative effort. Like yeah, you might be creating some resources or having some conversations, but also if you make it known that this is the place where these sorts of things go, other people can create them too. Anything they learn can go in there. So our episode from season 18, episode three with Dr. Carolina Mendoza Cavazos, she talked about, again, this institutional knowledge, um, and how it built up with her over time, very similar to the story that you’ve told as well, like some of those weird things about pay schedules and, you know, tax withholding and all this stuff. Um, so, so practically useful and yet until you’ve lived through it, you don’t know that it’s coming. So like, yeah, just a place to house these resources so that people can get prepared for that month or two where they’re not gonna have paycheck, which is so scary. Or like with, which I talked about with Carolina, like lapses in benefits if you don’t handle like a transition between funding sources properly, like just giving people a heads up that stuff is coming is so, so important. So I love this idea. Thank you so much for suggesting it. Um, anything else on that topic of like how people can help their peers if they’re excited about this topic?

Elle (26:56): Um, I think if you don’t have a financial wellness, uh, program or office at your university already, I think talking with administration, whether that’s, um, of your program or even higher, um, the, the way financial wellness at UCLA was started is like 10 years ago. Um, student feedback was, please give us a resource that where we can learn about things like credit, like credit cards, we’re getting this great education, but also there’s things in our daily lives that we need to know that we currently don’t have a great way of learning, at least through the university. So, um, if your financial, well, if a financial wellness office exists already at your institution, I think just going and seeing what resources they have. Um, I didn’t know that financial wellness created all these workshop presentations that are publicly available, um, to anyone even outside of UCLA. And, uh, so just seeing, seeing what resources they have, um, getting involved, if it’s also a passion of yours, um, which I’m sure a lot of listeners of this podcast it might be. Um, but if it doesn’t exist, if that office doesn’t exist and that resource doesn’t exist yet, make it known that you want it and, um, you’re definitely not alone in that. Um, I think just having a lot of names on a letter could at least get the ball rolling for those future generations of students because it worked at UCLA. Um, and I think it’s sort of, uh, continuing across the country as more and more financial wellness offices and programs pop up and, and start really helping students in a way that really matters.

Emily (28:25): Yeah, so I’m part of this, um, community, I guess called the Higher Education Financial Wellness Alliance, and it’s, it brings together financial wellness professionals from universities and colleges across the country. So when I attend like their conference, it seems to me like everybody has a financial wellness office. Maybe that’s not the case, but I will tell you that a lot of universities have financial wellness offices. It’s just that they might be focused on the undergraduate population. Now at UCLA, it sounds like they had like a position for like a graduate student, you know, two, two graduate student peers, um, peer counselors at a time, which is amazing. I’ll tell you that that’s not common. But the more and more graduate students who go to their financial wellness offices and say, we want these resources, and by the way, we want them tailored to our specific situation because it is different than an undergraduate situation. Um, the more and more they hear those requests, they will try to meet them, um, eventually <laugh>, but I think right now a lot of these offices don’t see graduate students ever. And so they don’t, it’s like the two popula-, they’re just not talking to each other, right? It’s not that graduate students don’t need this information, it’s just that they’re not going to that specific source and asking for it, but they should. So yes, I agree.

Elle (29:33): Amazing. Yeah, I think if you, if you never speak up right then, then um, it’s great to have, yeah, one Google Drive folder housed by like a professor, but, um, think about how great it would be to yeah, expand, uh, a university’s financial wellness program to include or be more inclusive of, um, graduate students. I think there’s always going to be work to be done, but um, I think it needs to start with, with a voice.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (29:55): Awesome. Okay, well let’s end with the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve already touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

Elle (30:09): Yes. Um, I thought a lot about this, um, because I knew the question was coming. Um, but I think, you know, there’s, there’s of course the, the starting a Roth IRA and budgeting, but I think the main advice I would give is to make time. Um, I think it’s so easy to put off something because this is sometimes scary for a lot of people. If you’ve never invested before, if you’ve never even heard of something, um, just make time, set a schedule maybe for me, I set aside two hours every week where I focus only on, or sorry, two hours every two weeks to focus on only my finances. So I pay off my credit cards, I check my credit report sometimes. Um, and, um, I, I look at, I update my net worth tracker, I look into if there’s a credit card that might have a good bonus. Um, I sort of see where I am in terms of my budget and my, my goals. Um, and then I also look at like potential investing opportunities. My, my investing is strategy is pretty set, um, and that I don’t want to really touch it, but, um, but when I was first starting, I think just making myself make time for it and then dedicating only those like two hours of just educating myself, figuring out what an index fund is, um, what, what I wanted to do, uh, in, in terms of like tax strategy, all that stuff, paying taxes, et cetera. Um, I think make, it starts with, with making time to do it, um, and not putting it off.

Emily (31:39): I love that piece of advice. Some people call this a money date, um, a recurring money date that you have by yourself or with your partner or whatever your applicable situation is. Um, I would also add in there like, I mean, all the things that you listed are things that, um, you can do either every time you have the money date or maybe they’re sort of seasonal or occasional. Um, but I would also add in, uh, consuming content. So like maybe that’s okay, I have two hours set aside every two weeks and it took me 75 minutes to do my tasks and I have another 45 and I’m gonna read a book, or I’m gonna listen to this certain podcast, whatever, just to like further that. And I, I love that, you know, keeping that space on the calendar, you obviously, um, do block scheduling with your calendar time block planning. Um, so that’s like an amazing way to do things and just to have that protected time because then if something does come up in your financial life, like I had something come up recently, which is that, um, my 401k provider is no longer my 401k provider. They ended the program for everyone. So like, I had a lot of administrative things to do to like, get this 401k moved elsewhere. And so just having that protected time on your calendar is great when something like that comes up because you can sit, you don’t have to steal time from, you know, some other aspect of your life. It’s already recurring there. So I really love that suggestion. Um, Elle, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, spending this time with us. I hope the listeners really enjoyed this episode, got a ton out of it and are inspired like I am to continue the work. So thank you again.

Elle (32:58): Thank you so much. Yeah, it’s, I’ve, I’ve been hoping to come on this podcast for so long and I was just always like, maybe I’m not ready, but, um, I hope, yeah, I hope this is useful to your listeners and thank you so much for having me. I, I really had fun.

Emily (33:09): Awesome. And a note to the listeners. Yes. So Elle and I happen to meet each other in person and I said, why do you not come on the podcast? Like, let’s make that happen. And as she just said, she’d been waiting and waiting, waiting to volunteer and yeah, there’s never gonna seem like a perfect time. Your story is done and whatever. Just go ahead and volunteer pfforphds.com/podcastvolunteer. That’s the form you can go and fill out and uh, I would love to have you and have another wonderful conversation like the one we just said. So yeah, I hope uh, more people volunteer and more people will take up the mantle for what you’re doing as well.

Elle (33:38): Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Outtro

Emily (33:50): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This International Graduate Student Grew His Career and Social Wealth Alongside His Net Worth

June 17, 2024 by Jill Hoffman

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Cyrus Liu, a postdoctoral fellow in computer science at Grinnell College. Cyrus came to the US from China as a graduate student without any knowledge of how the US financial system works. Over the course of his PhD, Cyrus found ways to minimize his expenses and increase his income so that he could meet his goal of investing $500 per month into a Roth IRA and a taxable brokerage account. He also invested in his physical and mental health and grew his career and social wealth in a frugal manner. Cyrus ends the interview with incredible insights into why he was motivated to work on his finances during graduate school and in what ways academics are truly wealthy.

Links mentioned in the Episode

How This International Graduate Student Grew His Career and Social Wealth Alongside His Net Worth

Teaser

Cyrus (00:00): Don’t underestimate yourself because you are a PhD student and you definitely have the knowledge base and then sharing those knowledge with the community, and you are passing to the knowledge. This is the wealth we possess, right? Normally people think we are poor, but actually, and a wider definition of the wealth here we have this part to share with someone else.

Introduction

Emily (00:33): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:01): This is Season 18, Episode 2, and today my guest is Dr. Cyrus Liu, a postdoctoral fellow in computer science at Grinnell College. Cyrus came to the US from China as a graduate student without any knowledge of how the US financial system works. Over the course of his PhD, Cyrus found ways to minimize his expenses and increase his income so that he could meet his goal of investing $500 per month into a Roth IRA and a taxable brokerage account. He also invested in his physical and mental health and grew his career and social wealth in a frugal manner. Cyrus ends the interview with incredible insights into why he was motivated to work on his finances during graduate school and in what ways academics are truly wealthy.

Emily (01:45): I’m offering a new slate of workshops for my university clients this fall, and over the summer I’m practicing delivering these workshops for free to a limited number of graduate students and postdocs on the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list. Last month, we did “Seven Steps to Start Investing as a Graduate Student or Postdoc,” and later in the summer we’ll do “Your Financial Orientation to Graduate School” and “Tax Season Preparation Starts Now for Graduate Students” and possibly more. If you’re not currently on my mailing list but want to receive notice about the upcoming pilot sessions once they are scheduled, please join now! The best way to get on the mailing list as a podcast listener is to sign up through PFforPhDs.com/advice/; you’ll receive a document that summarizes all of my interviewees’ responses regarding their best financial advice. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s18e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Cyrus Liu.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:56): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Cyrus Liu. He’s currently a postdoctoral fellow in computer science at Grinnell College, and we are going to be talking about his fascinating financial journey, um, as a graduate student and now a postdoc in the US as an international student. And so, Cyrus, I’m so happy that you’ve decided to join me on the podcast today, and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

Cyrus (03:19): Yes. Hi, Emily. Thank you for having me here. So I graduated in December, 2022 from computer science degree. Um, after that I landed this, uh, postdoc, um, fellow in computer science. And the current position, I’m do- mostly doing research in the area of programming languages and security.

Money Mindset After Arriving in the US

Emily (03:45): Excellent. So let’s go kind of all the way back to when you first arrived in the US. I assume that was at the start of graduate school, but you can correct me if that’s wrong. Um, tell me like about what your money mindset was at that point and how, if at all, how familiar you were with the US financial system.

Cyrus (04:01): Also, this is my first time before I come to US. It’s actually, I’ve never been to us before my PhD and I’m from China, so I grew up in a poor family, in fact, there. So with that in mind that I’m kind of sort of inherently frugal. But what’s interesting is back then, like I never feel poor in terms of any financials. In general, I have no idea about in credit card scores, uh, credit cards and investing or retirement. And, and that’s later on. I discovered after I entered the US that I do have, uh, a saving and spending mindfully and because how my parents raised me. Right.

Grad School Stipend vs. Local Cost of Living

Emily (04:50): I see. And so when you arrived for, um, graduate school here, can you tell me about, um, what your stipend was and how that struck you, maybe versus like the local cost of living?

Cyrus (05:02): I was living in Hoboken for, um, two years and a half, and also Stevens Institute with the university. I finished my PhD is located in this really beautiful city and it, it is, the local cost is like 60% higher than the national average. I would just say and put in the number that means like I think if you got two bedroom apartments that you might need to spend, um, at least 1700 for one bedroom, that means you need a a roommate. And back then the stipends, uh, I would say it’s like a 28 thousandish and it’s roughly, I remember we got paid like a biweekly, it’s like 2000 a hundred per month after tax.

Increasing Income During Grad School

Emily (05:55): Okay. Well, I really wanna dig into this, uh, with that, you know, relatively expensive cost of living and the relatively low stipend. Um, and the listeners don’t know yet, but this is a financial success story that we’re about to talk about <laugh>. So we’re gonna see how, you know, I wanted to see that starting point and now let’s see how you got to the end point that you got to. Um, so let’s kind of break this down, um, systematically. So during the course of your time in graduate school, how did you, what did you do to increase your income?

Cyrus (06:24): Yeah, so there are a couple things. Um, like I said that before I entering, uh, US, I have, I really have no idea what’s the, uh, um, investment, investment investing or credit cards, and that’s a totally different systems, but I do have a mindset that I need to save, right? And it is how I grew up. Um, but it’s not too much. So most of the case, um, I start to reaching out, um, all the resources I can, I, I think I start with reading the book first and then also I love reading. And then the first book I get to know is basically, uh, it is called I Will Teach Rich by the Ramit. And, and he, he actually kind of introduced me to the whole US financial system from credit card, from the, uh, uh, Roth IRA and then how you would you, uh, increase, uh, your finance and manage your, your spending habits and to how would you invest if you have extra money, even though if you don’t have extra money, just put maybe one, uh, 100 or $50 you can squeeze out. Just experience how things work. Uh, at the beginning it was a little bit overwhelming, but I, I enjoyed read his book. I I think this is also helps me to manage my life, uh, here in a completely, uh, foreign nation. Right?

Emily (08:04): Yeah, that’s a wonderful first book to get started with. I will teach you to be rich by Ramit Sethi. Um, yeah, great, great introduction. He’s very firm about how to tell if someone, someone, you know, an institution is trying to take advantage of you. Like he’s really helping you, like recognize that and push back against it. So I can definitely see how that would be useful when you’re entering a new system, um, entirely. So awesome recommendation, you started there, you read that book,

Cyrus (08:28): And then I start to act <laugh>.

Emily (08:31): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Cyrus (08:31): And then I open the credit card and then I, I, I take the, the same strategy that I recommended by the, by the book. It, it’s not promotion for the book, but it’s more like, I think around nothing to think of that it is really like you try to minimize all the possible interest, right? Rates I would have and then, or a lot of promotions provided by the credit card and then try to take advantage of that because now we think about that credit cards more like the more you expense and then the more you can potentially save and also they encourage you to spend. So, but I personally very mindful with my expense, but the same times I think they do, credit cards do offer a lot of discounts in terms of purchasing. So that’s the first step.

Emily (09:24): So are you saying that you pursued credit card rewards, like points and cash back and stuff after? Of course, you initially need to establish credit and get started there.

Cyrus (09:32): Yes, exactly.

Emily (09:32): But is that where this led eventually?

Cyrus (09:34): The, the signing bonus and also the cashback reward, that’s also something new to me that I never did, uh, touch before. And then also we do have, uh, I think the first one is the discovery. I think most of international students would get to discovery first because we don’t have any, uh, credit score history here. And so they also have these online stores that will give you 10% or 5% discount. And then when I go out to buy clothes in, or I was living in New York City area, so there’s a lot of department store that can use with this discount opportunities.

Emily (10:16): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. Okay. So both increasing income through credit card, um, bonuses and cash back and so forth. Also finding a way to be even more frugal in saving certain percent, percentages on the purchases that you do make.

Cyrus (10:28): After that, um, uh, I started to opening a investment account that was also a little bit struggling because I, first of all, as an international student, I do not know if I was allowed to do that. So I, that’s kind of for research myself. But in the end, after like, um, as long as we are considering as a tax payer resident, and then, so you should have the same opportunity to open all those investment account. And then I, I remembered I started with, uh, uh, 500 ish, um, over the month for the first month. So I just put, I think I, I, I was not expecting to gain anything. I just, uh, put 500 to get to understanding, uh, how the investments work and buying individual stocks. And I think I bought, that was 2018. I bought a Tesla <laugh> because I really like, uh, Elon Musk.

Cyrus (11:30): Um, but that was another story. It was really funny. And so that’s one part. And then, uh, after that, uh, I get to know the, Roth IRA and then the retirement account. Um, it’s also be, uh, I, I get to understand how the tax work here and then the tax deferred account. And I think that’s whether in long term if, uh, I am staying here or not. I, for me, it’s like, I think it’s, uh, uh, beneficial to open this account as soon as possible because I do pay a lot of taxes. I mean, it’s, uh, in terms of graduate students. Uh, so I think, uh, that’s one way you should take benefit of that. And then I did that, but um, although I didn’t have much money to put on that, and then, uh, in the end, I would, my, my goal was, uh, try to save like, uh, 500 and put into other way to the Roth IRA or the personal, um, uh, investment brokerage and yeah. But this all comes with the risk. So with the mind that you, the money you put in, in the investment account, like it’s possible to lose all of them. Right. But I was fine with that.

Contributing to a Retirement Account as an International Student

Emily (12:47): Couple things there, uh, because I get so many questions from international students and postdocs, um, yeah, maybe they know, they, you know, in theory could contribute money to a Roth ira for example. They, they understand the eligibility, but they’re more questioning like, is this a good idea? And it sounds like you came down on Yep. As soon as possible, whether I end up in the US long term or not, this is a good idea. Can you tell us a little bit more about that thought process and how you made that decision?

Cyrus (13:15): Uh, I think that this decision is very personal for me. Um, because that, that’s all really depends, um, where you going to stay, where are you going to retire in, in the future, right? Um, for me, I didn’t really think that too long. Um, I can in, in the long run, I, I prefer this. I might not stay in United States. Uh, but, uh, I, but uh, for me, you, you got to understand what, what, what’s your, uh, long-term goal. Uh, if you are not going to come back to us at all, or even this is the case, but it is still helpful that because, uh, you are kind of tax deferred assuming you grow your money over there, right? Um, and it just take some penalties if you break the, the rules that you’re taking out the money before your retirement age. But if you can stand with that, it is nothing comparing that if you in your future that you might want to settle down in US or you go want you coming back in us in a later life, it, it, it, it can benefit you a lot, but without risk balance you got assessment, what’s your goal, it is. And then for me, I would like to take that even though maybe a few years I have to, uh, uh, leave or, or for, or I have to withdraw the money, but I need to take a 20% or I don’t know exactly number the penalty for that.

Emily (14:53): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, yeah, if I’m remembering correctly, it’s, I think it’s only 10% and it’s only on the gains. And if we’re talking about the Roth IRA, right, because you can withdraw the contribution. So it’s, as you said, you know, there’s a, um, a, a risk there in a sense. Okay, well maybe I will need to remove this money early for some reason. Well, this is the penalty. Am I willing to accept that? Do you know, I’m, and the penalty again, is only on the growth. So it’s only if, yeah, if there things have actually gone well with that investment account, um, in the intervening years. So thank you for giving us a little bit more insight there.

Investing as a Graduate Student

Emily (15:24): And then I also wanted to ask about the taxable brokerage account. Um, you mentioned you bought Tesla. Yeah. Were you, um, cashing out, like making trades and actually taking income from this money over the years? Or is it more been like just sitting there for like, for the long term and you’re not taking income from it?

Cyrus (15:40): So for me, it’s more like a, um, a personal habit. Like, um, uh, I do, I don’t, I didn’t, I did not have much money to invest, and I think I was just bought two or three, few five shares of Tesla, but in 2018, and, but after that, Tesla was like a, like a high rocket, and I do, I did sold a couple share, but those number I really like comparing it, it’s not much. And so no, it, it, it’s more like, uh, a habit. That one is a habit. The another one is I, I did not really have much extra money to invest in this account.

Emily (16:24): Yeah. And I, you said the number of $500 earlier, was that your, was it your goal to invest $500 per month or is that over a different period of time?

Cyrus (16:32): Uh, yeah, I was, uh, uh, a month.

Minimizing Expenses as a Graduate Student

Emily (16:34): Let’s talk about keeping a lid on expenses or decreasing expenses then, because we’ve already heard that the cost of living is very challenging on your grad student stipend. So you already mentioned having multiple roommates. I think you said you were sharing a bedroom, right? So like maybe four people in a two bedroom apartment, is that right?

Cyrus (16:49): Um, um, no, that, that was like, uh, we do have five bedrooms in, uh, a big house, but we, we have our own bedroom. But the things like, uh, in that case we did cutting down a lot of expenses. We share everything.

Emily (17:05): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. Okay. So kind of the, the frugal tip there is like larger residents, more roommates, more people to split everything among, right?

Cyrus (17:15): Yeah. Not many PhD students actually live in Hoboken. I was lucky to find this place. Uh, but the same times, like I personally, I don’t think roommates are bad. And because I, I get a chance to know different people and, uh, in my case, uh, there’s a, a little, uh, uh, that, but I can stand with because we do sharing, uh, things, uh, and then sometimes can getting busy, but most of the case are fine with that. So we, I have four other roommates, but they are working in a different area. So basically we would have a different schedule. So in this case, uh, it’s doable and especially, uh, given the resources I have, I don’t commute that much. And then I enjoy in the on campus resource, I like to do it to gym. So it’s like a 10 minutes away from my, uh, my, my lab and then also the, to the gym. So the, I spend most of the time in the lab. And then after that, I go to the gym really just, uh, over the night, come back. And then sometimes we have the good parties, you have roommates, and you can have some little party on the weekends and watch a movie together. That was pretty nice.

Emily (18:30): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I actually really like the setup of a single family home that’s shared among multiple different, multiple, you know, people at their own bedrooms. I feel like that’s a pretty, in most areas of the country, that’s a pretty economical way to live if that type of housing is available to you as opposed to like the apartments or, you know, the townhouses or whatever. Yeah. Um, yeah. So what other ways did you find to decrease or minimize your expenses?

Cyrus (18:55): So at the same time, um, we, we do have, uh, uh, so I try to, uh, take a break from my research sometimes. And another way is like, um, travel. When, when it comes to travel, um, I prefer to go with my friends or in a group, and in, in generally I do meal prep. I do, uh, regularly do, uh, exercise and eat healthy. Um, the meal prep myself, it’s also cost less. So I think it is a, it is beneficial in two ways. Um, also in long run, I do value work workout regularly and keep your mental health checked. This would’ve, uh, stopped me going to hospital that often. Like I remember when the seasoning transitions during the transition seasonings and you catch flu isn’t sometimes it’s not just going to the hospital suffering. It’s more like you take at least one week to recover and then you get behind with my research and then that kind of padding up. It’s a lot of stress. So I, I, I wouldn’t, so I, I realized that like, and I, the good way is like take, do more exercise and then to, to keep your immune system robust, <laugh> against that. Um, another thing is like, it, it’s very funny, like when we pay in taxes, right? We, we considering as a, a tax resident. And, uh, but at the same time, I really appreciate my student id. I was living in New York City area and then using student id, you got a lot of free, uh, tickets and also discount tickets to the art gallery and museums and, and gardens. So although I, I, I was, uh, frugal, but I didn’t miss out any fun things over there. I, I still go to museums, gardens, and sometimes, uh, uh, uh, meetups and, and, and local, uh, parties. I, I was, was really fun. And it didn’t really cost you much.

Emily (21:10): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So your entertainment was also satisfactory to you, but you found a way to do it in a frugal manner.

Cyrus (21:16): Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (21:18): Anything else on your list of, of expenses that you managed to minimize?

Cyrus (21:22): I don’t drive, right? So it is also, I was living in the city. It’s really, uh, so those expenses not really, uh, a thing for me. I personally, I do not really purchase too much clothing for me. I’m very minimal. Like, uh, as long I have, uh, uh, a clean fit clothing, that’s enough for me. And for shoes, like, uh, I don’t like to switch too much, and also maybe I have two or three, two, uh, three pair of shoes that one for winter and one or two I can switch during the summer or something like that. So, uh, wearing the things like to the, to the most, um, I think this is preco- probably also because the way that I, how I raised that I am fine with that. And I think that’s kind of, uh, one part, uh, that can cut off the cost in my case.

Emily (22:26): Yeah, definitely.

Commercial

Emily (22:29): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2024-2025 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Orientations or very close to the start of the academic year would be a perfect time for tax education or general personal finance content. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Increasing Social Wealth

Emily (23:56): Is there anything else that you would like to add about overall how you increased your net worth during graduate school? We talked about investing in the Roth, IRA and also in the taxable brokerage account. Anything else in that category?

Cyrus (24:09): Uh, I think one thing that is more intangible, the the wealth and the finance that, uh, the, it is kind of the, the social wealth, the, which I, I, I, I was not really proud of that, um, and try to, uh, take advantage of the local resources, right? And then I was lucky to live in New York City area, and then that’s, and also Hoboken locally and is very nice community, but I think no matter where you live, the local community more often, have more resources that you can imagine and you might not be aware, just try to reach out. And for example, I was attending almost like every weekend I go out and then join the meetup and conference, and most of, of the time they provide you these free meals, lunch or dinner, and then it, it, it’s a, it’s a nice way you can social and also you don’t need to cook your meal yourself. So these things are very subtle and the same things happening on campus that, um, in, in your department, uh, no matter which major you are, um, try to join the, uh, the, if you have any habit, right, join the club and then your peers, and those are most likely have this, uh, social events that can help you, uh, to reduce sometimes if you don’t want to cook or for breakfast meal. And then those are all great ways to, to do

Emily (25:59): Classic grad student strategy. Um, but I like that your focus here and kind of your spin on it is both like, yeah, you can get some free meals from time to time, but also you get, you get your entertainment and your social interaction. Um, and so it fills your, your calendar and helps you again with your work life balance and your wellness overall. And I like that you mentioned not just doing this on campus, but in the community too. And the thing is that if people are putting on events and they’re giving food and all those things, they really want you there. They really want people to come. So like you’re also, you know, you’re contributing to their community as well.

Cyrus (26:32): Yeah. Yeah. I, I think, um, one of the things not just about the meals, and another thing is about the, the, the social wealth. I would say it’s all, uh, it’s also the concept I learned from the books that, uh, it’s more how would you connect to the people? And then that was, uh, kind of potentially, and the connection may or may not be lead you to in the future when you are in the job market, you could have used these connections, but, uh, I wouldn’t say put this in more like a transactional way, but you should try genuinely more just enjoying the life. But at the same times, you might not realize by doing that, you kind of gain the social wealth.

Freedom as the Ultimate Goal

Emily (27:20): You were obviously putting in a lot of effort with your finances, right? All the things we went through, ways that you keep your lifestyle to a minimum ways you figured out how to increase your income, you know, self-education, and then that turned into more investing and so forth. Um, why, why weren’t you just satisfied with getting by day to day and saving all of that for after you finish graduate school?

Cyrus (27:45): I, I think that’s awesome. One role of the reason is due to my personality, I guess. Um, I think the, the ultimate goal is the freedom to achieve the freedom and to be confident. W- with the any decisions I’m going to make. So I would like to, we are talking about freedom and confidence. It’s more like in the sense that I was, I can make decisions based on my own personal demand, not really subject to any resources surrounding me, right? Like, like I said, like before I entering us, I never felt I’m, I’m poor <laugh> because I don’t really have, have much need and I was spending most of my life and time with school. And then after you explore the world, I have this dream, and then now the time’s moving on, and then I start to realize that I really, it’s not what you think, like ideas are great, but you have these obstacles that related to this, uh, money topic, and then you actually making decisions based on what the resources are available for you. So the final goal, then I would start to thinking like, yeah, this comes so natural, you save more, but saving is just one of those strategies. So, and then that’s why I end up start to find out the other opportunities and yeah. So I, I would say the ultimate goal is to be freedom.

Emily (29:30): Do you feel like, you know, you are, I don’t know, five, six or so years into this now, um, do you feel like you’ve attained that to a degree? Obviously you’re not, maybe, you know, complete financial independence is still, still some time away, but, um, I guess I’m, I’m wondering about, yeah, like does it feel like you are a percentage ways, like towards that at this point?

Cyrus (29:53): Uh, in terms of the net worth, obvious, No, that is a far away, but I think in terms of mindset and the knowledge, and then I am preparing myself and then I’m being mindful with my personal life. It’s called personal finance, right? And then you, I i, I was now I’m able to figuring out in the big picture and then what’s the come in flow, what’s the outflow? And I’m, I’m very mindful of that. And then in the end, it, it’s really also, it’s another pro- a question for myself. Do I really want to be retired early or not, or, so the, the, the, the freedom for me is in a more, in a wider definition that it’s more about the resource management and the organize myself, and it, it, it, it includes material and, but also my mind. I think this kind of, uh, uh, knowledge and skills over these past five to six years that I develop, it’s very helpful. Um, in the long term. I, I think if I stick to that and then keep this growth mindset and in the future, the net worth is just a number, whether you choose retire 40 at 40 or 50 a a it is, can is this is the freedom that I, I’m talking about. I can decide, doesn’t matter if, if I have to work or not, right?

Emily (31:33): Absolutely. I love that. Thank you much for pointing that out. I similarly, I think I came to this similar kinds of reflections after I had finished graduate school, after I’d been on that path for a few years, like recognizing how, um, having not only some money in terms of the net worth, but also those mindsets and the habits and the skills and everything that it took to start down that path really afforded me more, uh, choices even at that relatively early stage, um, in life. So thank you so much for sharing that. Exactly.

Personal Finance Resources for Grad Students

Emily (32:07): Um, do you have any additional resources that you’d like to recommend, either to specifically the international graduate student population or maybe graduate students and postdocs more widely? I mean, your first recommendation, I will teach you to be rich by Ramit Sethi was an excellent one. Were there any other books or I don’t know, podcasts or YouTube channels or anything else that you, uh, that you felt was really helpful along the way?

Cyrus (32:27): Yeah, I think, um, so I, I think books are really, uh, good to start with. And in terms of which books you should read, uh, um, uh, I would recommend if you use Reddit, and that there’s a personal finance Reddit channel, uh, you can join that one. There’s a lot of resources about personal finance and what books you’re getting started. And if you like a podcast, and I think this one is very nice since, uh, at the beginning I, I couldn’t find much resources. That’s also how I get to know this podcast. And I was very excited that actually someone thanks to you <laugh>, um, so you, you, you can get, keep get informed to make a good decision, right? Um, and this, uh, this, this is, uh, complete within your reach if you want to do that. And then I would suggest you do that.

Cyrus (33:28): And in terms of, uh, um, tangible resources, be mindful for the, uh, reach out to your university resources. Like, um, especially I was using this, uh, psycho, uh, psychological services therapy and be open-minded. And for those like, um, we are PhD students, we are graduate students, and then it’s can definitely be very lonely. And then even you are in a relationship, so, and those resources are really just find somewhere to talk. And this I think is the part that can easily be ignored by the students, especially international students thinking I’m really, because I’m alien here and then I feel constrained. But actually, uh, uh, in us, you can definitely, especially in your university, you have a lot of resources, uh, uh, to help you out. And then when you graduated, and actually the careers, uh, service is also very helpful, but you need to know that and you need to reach out for yourself.

Cyrus (34:41): And in terms of local community, no matter where you live, try to find a city. And what I did is like get engaged with the locals and I like running and then I go to 5K races. So those are, you can, um, reach out without any cost, right? And also you can, uh, remain your, uh, healthy mind, mind, uh, mental health. So yeah, I, I think overall just be open-minded. We are living in this, uh, information liberal age is really, you don’t feel missing out, and then you have the access to other information you can figure out yourself. And what’s, one thing I, I learned is, um, what makes you, uh, anxious is mostly the things that you actually didn’t do right? And then if you act on it, it, it, it doesn’t matter how challenging the, the things itself, and then you will be fine. But sitting there <laugh> doing nothing, that that’s the big problem.

Emily (35:54): Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, I’ve absolutely seen that in, I mean, it, it applies widely, but certainly in the case of finances, um, it’s better to just face it and engage. Yeah. And try something. Um, yeah, instead of, as you said, kind of avoiding or spending a long time in analysis paralysis, not sure which direction you should go, just try something. And you’ve tried a lot of things and I love that we got through all of that in this interview.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (36:16): Let’s wrap up with our last question that I ask all of my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

Cyrus (36:28): Yeah, so, um, I think everyone has a very unique experience, uh, in terms of giving. Otherwise, I would just say I wish what I have done or done more to in my PhD. Um, so one thing I think, like I mentioned couple times, um, value social wealth. And that means that, uh, try to, uh, go out and in, in your spare time, sometimes you might think you don’t have time, especially as a PhD student. And, but I tried, I have the similar mindset, uh, at a certain amount of time. But the thing is like you stick in the lab and the home, you might, you become less productive and then it might take more time than comparing that you just go out and do some activities and then come back with, uh, more energy and fresh mind. So this is the thing that I, I think I did, uh, less, uh, whether it, if you are in a relationship or not, it is the similar thing sometimes, like go out with friends and, and to the meetups and or more importantly, um, it’s also more, uh, career wise or professionally. Like we, we as a graduate student, we don’t really have money to give out, but the same, uh, idea applies. The more you give the, the, the, the, the better. So, but as a scholar, that means that volunteer to giving talks in the meetups, workshops, seminars in your neighboring institutions, I think, uh, don’t underestimate yourself because you are a PhD student and you definitely have the knowledge base and then sharing those knowledge with the community, and you are passing to the knowledge. This is the wealth we possess, right? Normally people think we are poor, but actually, um, a wider definition of the wealth here, we have this part to share with someone else. And then the same times you will get rewarding back, right? Because you, you go out and people get your idea, you get a chance to talk about your research, and the same times you build this genuine connections with the community, and in the future, this connections might help you to navigate your, your future career path.

Cyrus (38:58): So this is the thing that I, I think I missed out a lot also because we was in the covid times, and that’s really dark age. Um, on the other side, as I, I would like to share is I think what I did to contribute the success of my PhD is one thing is really be open-minded. I considering myself a very open-minded person, I, I, at the same time, very minimal for me. And then, but I do exercise more and then, and try new things at the beginning. All those investment accounts really scares me because every time I open the account, that’s a whole for legal documents I have to read. And I, as an international, I’m concerned that I fly-, am I breaking the law or something like that. But if, if you are looking into it and it’s really not that scary, right?

Cyrus (39:56): So I think, I think I, I stand with myself and then I, I try all those things. And then the, the, the, the idea is you need to realize that if you don’t do that, and it’s actually you are paying that, you are not doing that, right? Because the inflations and the interest rates, rates all the things that you have to, you kind of, everyone should open their investment account and, and, and do the investment and manage that to beat the, at least the inflation. So another thing I think I value, uh, more is the people itself, whether it be your significant others or friends. I do valuable value those things. Um, uh, that means that if, if there’s a chance I can spend more time with my friends, like, uh, we go out for a nice, a night, a fancy dinner. Sometimes we go out for, to New York, Manhattan to try different restaurants. I, I, I, I really not at that moment, I value more with the time with my friends. And even though the meal is expensive sometimes, I remember one time we spent almost a hundred each of us for one meal <laugh> was like, but I think that was really, uh, um, uh, valuable for me.

Emily (41:15): Yeah, so insightful. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. Thank you for this entire interview Cyrus, for volunteering to come on the podcast. Um, it’s been absolute pleasure to have you.

Cyrus (41:24): Thank you. And thank you for having me and it is great to sharing the stories with everyone. Thank you so much.

Outtro

Emily (41:41): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This Grad Student Took Control of Her Finances to Shift Her Income Sources

April 15, 2024 by Jill Hoffman

In this episode, Emily interviews Fern Wolburg Martinez, a 4th-year PhD student in Industrial/Organizational Psychology at Portland State University. Fern shares the pros and cons of the various income sources she’s used for her graduate work: a teaching assistantship, a fellowship, student loans, side jobs, and social safety net programs. When Fern was offered a fellowship, she realized she would no longer be eligible to take out student loans and had to decline it. Fern subsequently worked on her spending and budgeting to put herself in a position to accept the fellowship and increase her income later on. Finally, Fern and Emily discuss how you can employ a researcher’s skills and mindset in the personal finance arena.

Links mentioned in the Episode

This Grad Student Took Control of Her Finances to Shift Her Income Sources

Teaser

Fern (00:00): No idea where my money was going, how much money I was spending, and how, what my stable fixed expenses looked like every month. And then finally what my advisor offered the fellowship and she’s like, Hey, you should go on this fellowship. I was like, oh, I don’t know. I can’t do student loans. I have to look into it, so maybe I can afford it, but I’m not sure. So this is where the scientist mindset came in. It’s like, okay, I need objective data to look at my situation and make an informed decision.

Introduction

Emily (00:36): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:05): This is Season 17, Episode 8, and today my guest is Fern Wolburg Martinez, a 4th-year PhD student in Industrial/Organizational Psychology at Portland State. Fern shares the pros and cons of the various income sources she’s used for her graduate work: a teaching assistantship, a fellowship, student loans, side jobs, and social safety net programs. When Fern was offered a fellowship, she realized she would no longer be eligible to take out student loans and had to decline it. Fern subsequently worked on her spending and budgeting to put herself in a position to accept the fellowship and increase her income later on. Finally, Fern and I discuss how you can employ a researcher’s skills and mindset in the personal finance arena.

Emily (01:51): If you’re listening to this episode on the day it drops, you know that it is Tax Day! I hope that you have already submitted your 2023 tax return, paid your 2023 tax bill, and made your 2024 quarter 1 estimated tax payment for your fellowship, if required. However, there have been many years in which I was still working on any or all of those elements right up to and even past the deadline. If you’re in that position and need additional resources on taxes tailored to the graduate student, postdoc, or postbac experience, join one of my asynchronous tax workshops to immediately access my best teaching on these topics. Go to PFforPhDs.com/tax/ and scroll to the bottom of the page to learn more about the tax return preparation workshop and the estimated tax workshop. Best of luck to you in these final hours of tax season! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e8/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Fern Wolburg Martinez.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:10): I am delighted how joining me on the podcast today, Fern Wolburg Martinez. She’s a current graduate student at Portland State in industrial organizational psychology. And we are going to talk about how Fern has funded her graduate program, both, you know, through the graduate program, through side hustles. Um, we’re also gonna talk about budgeting and just really get into the numbers today of like what a current graduate student is, um, is making and spending. So, Fern, I’m so delighted to have you on. Thank you so much for volunteering to come on and be open about this subject. And would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

Fern (03:41): Yeah, thank you, Emily. So, like you mentioned, I’m Fernanda, I go by Fern and I am currently in my fourth year of my graduate program preparing for my comprehensive exams. And my expertise is on occupational health psychology. Specifically, I explore how sexual harassment and customer sexual harassment affects the wellbeing of employees.

PhD Program Funding and Stipend Advocacy Efforts

Emily (04:03): Okay, thank you so much. Can you tell us about how your program has been funded to date?

Fern (04:09): Yeah, so the nice thing about my program is just a master’s to PhD program and it’s fully funded if you get accepted. So they cover tuition, everything. And it was an interesting trajectory because we had a stipend that was very low. It was like after taxes, it was about a thousand a month. And then the students really advocated for more because that’s barely covers rent in Portland. Portland’s a pretty expensive city. And then they raised the stipend by almost like 200%. So after taxes, it ended up being like $2,000. Um, and that’s just for the graduate teaching assistantships. And we also have a, an amazing funding program from the National Institute of Health, which is under the CDC, which is an OHP or occupational health psychology type of training where they give a fellowship to up to three to four students per year. And you can have it for two years. And that’s what I’m currently on, and that one is not taxed. And it’s about like 2,400 a month.

Emily (05:14): Okay. I wanna hear more about this advocacy process. It doesn’t sound like, was there an official union going on or was it just like, Nope, we’re all just talking together and saying you have to pay us more. This is unsustainable.

Fern (05:25): Yeah, so I cannot take full credit for that. Not even partial credit because I have to say it’s when I started the program, it’s kind of like, oh, I’m so excited to have a PhD and join this program and I don’t care how much money it is. And then I face the realities of actually having to live on that stipend and take out student loans. And the stress comes with that because grad student loans are different from undergrad student loans with the interest and the plus loans. Um, so I was just dealing with it and I was like, this is fine. This is the way it is. And stressfully. And, but thankfully I was, uh, I started during covid, so I was still living at home in Arizona at this time, so I could still save on rent, but it was still nothing. Right. Um, and it’s not until the cohort after me that the program really focused on diversifying our population of students.

Fern (06:14): And these students from different backgrounds were all about fighting for themselves and for the collective wellbeing. And they were like, this is not a livable stipend and if you wanna be a diverse and competitive program, you need to do something about it. So they really insisted with the faculty. And we do have a union, but the union, you know, the students can barely afford to pay for the rent. So like, nevermind paying for a union due. Right. Um, so they didn’t go through the union. It was more like the psychology department students from that specific cohort just really advocated with the faculty. And then the faculty were also really amazing at being receptive about it and talking to the dean about it. And I’m not sure how they moved the funds around, but they were able to increase the stipend for everybody.

Emily (07:00): Wow. Love to hear that success story especially.

Fern (07:03): Yeah. Shout out to them.

Emily (07:04): I mean, the union as like approach is certainly powerful, but it’s, but it’s slow and it’s, um, it’s onerous. And so this sounds like kind of a quicker if if the faculty and so forth, everybody is, um, amenable to it. This is kind of like a quicker route. So I’m so glad to hear that story of how that cohort after you, um, helped themselves and everybody else by just talking about this. And it’s, I mean, a thousand dollars a month is just ridiculous for an amount of stipend to try to live on that. Okay. So it sounds like you had been on a teaching assistantship at first, is that right? For at least a couple years,

Fern (07:36): Yes, for the first three years.

Emily (07:38): Okay. So for three years on a teaching assistantship, now you’re on this fellowship through the federal funding kind of route. Can you tell us, um, in terms of your experience as a graduate student, what the advantages or the pros and cons were for each of these different, um, types of funding?

Fern (07:54): Yeah, so the teaching assistantship, it’s like a regular W2 job. So you, your taxes are taken out, you don’t have to worry about that. You get the same money at the same time every month. It’s less money though. So it’s about, oh my God, what’s the difference? Like $500 less, probably more in comparison to the fellowship. Um, but the good, the biggest pro about that, besides the fact that they give you the W2 and the taxes, is that you can take out student loans with that. So with having the teaching assistantship, I was also able to qualify for loans and then like my teaching assistantship would pay for rent and some credit card bills or whatever else I had to pay. And then I would use the student loans to pay for, like, if I wanted to visit my family, if I have to travel to conferences, if I have to buy food, if I want to go eat up food with my friends, everything else was covered by the loans.

Fern (08:51): And then the pro of the fellowship is the time flexibility, because I’m just doing research. I don’t have to do a teaching assistantship. And sometimes, uh, just working with professors and instructors can be a great experience and sometimes not such a great experience, and you never know who you’re gonna get and if it’s gonna be a more stressful term in comparison to the previous one. So having the time flexibility to do research on my own time and work on my own projects and get paid for that is amazing. It’s also more money, but the cons is, it’s, um, it’s weirdly coded this grant, I think there’s only like three universities in the, in the United States that have this type of fellowship. And it’s coded so that it counts the tuition reimbursement as part of the fellowship that we receive. So it counts as salary. So we no longer qualify for loans because we’re making too much money.

Fern (09:44): So beyond our monthly stipend, that tuition money was also, it also looked like from the tax perspective, from the, uh, government’s perspective, that that money goes to us instead of it going to the university for tuition. So I no longer qualify for student loans at the moment. So that’s why I waited my three years until I was at a place where I had like, I could afford rent and I had paid off all my debt so that I could actually take out this fellowship and not have to rely on student loans, which was always my goal to only take out loans for two to three years, and then not for the last two years of my program.

Emily (10:17): I see. So it sounds like you actually had a degree of agency over when you had one position versus another, so you could kind of coordinate that with your personal finances. Um, I haven’t heard of that before. I, I guess I’m more accustomed to people like sort of being, um, the timing of fellowships happening just based on like your timing in your program or something like that, or like when you happen to win it. Um, but that sounds really, really smart that you worked on your personal finances while you had access to those loans. Um, before switching over, I’m a little surprised to hear that you don’t have access to loans anymore, but I don’t know.

Fern (10:50): Yeah.

Emily (10:50): I don’t know all the details about it, so.

Fern (10:52): It’s so weird.

Emily (10:52): I’m sure you’ve been through the technical specifications.

Fern (10:54): Yeah, it was, it was a whole thing because I actually got it offered my second year and I said, yeah, I’ll take it. And then I found out, they didn’t let me know it was miscommunication. I found out that I couldn’t qualify for loans anymore and I had to tell my advisor like, Hey, I, I didn’t know about this and I can no longer afford anything if I can’t take a loan. So they had to switch me back to being a TA ship. So after that I was like, okay, next time I, if I do switch back to a fellowship, I wanna be more conscious and in a good place where I can actually take advantage of that.

Emily (11:24): Hmm. Yeah, I think the generalizable like, you know, lesson here for the audience is just to be really, um, heavily consider how these different types of funding are going to affect your personal finances. Whether it’s, you know, the tax implications, whether it’s the student loan implications, whether it’s the increasing amount of take home income, decreased amount of take home income, and just as, as best you’re able to, like you did, um, exert, you know, agency in this process and or prepare on the personal finance side for the changes that are upcoming so that you’re not caught. I mean, what would you have done, like if you had to, had to accept this fellowship? Couldn’t afford everything, couldn’t take out student loans? Well, we’re gonna talk more about how you’ve like, um, made the budget balance. Um, in a moment. But yeah, it would’ve been a harder financial position for sure.

Fern (12:08): Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s very important for people who are in grad school and are considering one versus the other to look into, like you said, taxes, student loans, and just asking all the questions to their advisor regarding these things. I think that, uh, supervisor support is very important if you have a supervisor who’s transparent about the process and helping you to the best of their capabilities on everything that entails going into a fellowship versus having a regular, uh, teaching assistantship, um, with all that stuff.

Side Jobs During the PhD Program

Emily (12:38): Yeah. Um, did you also have a side job at any point during these four years?

Fern (12:45): Yeah, I worked my first two years and, you know, as I was like in college I had two jobs and I was going to the gym at five in the morning and it’s like, yeah. But I was also 18, 20 years old. It’s very different, uh, than going to grad school. Grad school is a different beast. So I had a job for the first two years I was working in the restaurant industry, which is what inspired my thesis topic. And it was really stressful because, you know, I don’t know if you remember what your first two years were like, but it would take me four hours to read like a 20 page article because the content is so dense and so difficult and so different from just a textbook. So I was spending my time with the four hours, uh, classes per week and two classes, uh, for every week.

Fern (13:33): And then also on top of that, reading the articles. And then on the weekends I was working. So I was just exhausted all the time. I was burnt out. It, yeah. I wasn’t great for my health, so I decided on my second year to quit. And then on my third year, again, before I moved to Portland, I decided to get a job to be able to afford to move to Portland. So I started working back in the restaurant industry. So a lot of respect for restaurant employees because that industry’s always there when we need it, but it’s definitely a sacrifice. The quality of my work and the quality of my health did decline, but it’s also a trade off of then I can have more money that is not, that I don’t have to give back to the government.

Emily (14:16): Hmm. Yeah, I mean, because you were, you had the stipend, you had the student loan, um, kind of bridge coming in and you had the side work. You really had to find that balance among all three of those things in which funding source is most appropriate and how much energy would you have to use and so forth. So, um, that’s really tricky. And since you’ve switched over to the fellowship, it sounds like you haven’t been working on the side, right? With the higher income?

Fern (14:40): No, I did hold a, so this was another opportunity that just came to me and follow my lab. This student recently graduated and her and I just had a really good working relationship and worked on a lot of projects together. So she really liked my work ethic, so she recommended me to do a summer internship that she had to turn down and that worked great for me. So I was doing analysis for the university factor analysis where they wanted to reduce the items in a course evaluation scale. And that was awesome because I was able to make a couple extra, like 2000 that month or that summer. Uh, so opportunities like that arise as I progress through the program and I become more skilled. Like now I’m at the point that with my master’s I can get an internship and that’s a lot more money than any part-time job can give me. Right. Um, so opportunities come and go. And also it’s just every year is different and just have to adapt and find ways to make the finances work.

Using SNAP (Food Stamps) During the PhD Program

Emily (15:35): Yeah, I like that you pointed that out. Like as you progress in your program, you become more skilled, you become more knowledgeable, there are different opportunities that come up for you. I’m like, you, you’ve probably heard me say on the podcast before, but I’m like a big advocate of people, um, being paid a high hourly rate as much as they can. And that probably means employing your unique skills that you’re developing inside of academia, maybe inside of academia, maybe outside of academia. So in addition to the stipend from the assistantship and the fellowship in addition to the student loans for some time, in addition to the side work, I understand that you also relied on government programs for a period of time. Can you tell us more about the types of programs that you accessed and what they did for you?

Fern (16:14): Yes. So I need to give credit again to the cohort that came after me because I was like, oh, I’m just stuck in this. And some people mentioned food stamps, but I went into the snap and SNAP is, I don’t know what it stands for, but it’s the Food Stamps Assistance program. And they said that graduate students didn’t qualify and I didn’t look further into it. I was like, okay, I just don’t qualify. Undergrads do, but graduates don’t for whatever reason. And then the cohort after me said, yeah, you do qualify. I’m on it. And I had never been on food stamps before and I also had this perception that food stamps was for people that were very low income and really needed it and were like below the poverty level. And I was, I’m a grad student so I can still rely on my parents if I need to.

Fern (16:56): So I just didn’t see myself in that realm. But if anything, once they told me that they were on it and I could apply for it, and I applied and I got it and I got an extra $200 a month to be able to pay for groceries, it was great. And it just gave me a lot of independence and freedom and just a lot of relief for my expenses because sometimes if I have to pay for conferences and I have to pay my bills and everything else, then I would just buy less food. And with the food stamps it’s like, oh, now I can afford it. And also relying on the food pantry at my university. And a lot of us got on food stamps. And what’s also great about this program is that at, at least in Portland, they’re very supportive of the arts.

Fern (17:38): So if you show your EBT card, which is how you pay for the food stamps, I a lot, I thought it was actual stamps, it’s not actual stamps. It’s like they give you like a little debit card and they refill it every month with X amount of dollars that they give you every month. And like it never expires until you no longer qualify for the program. But if you show your EBT card, then you can also get $5 entries to like museums and opera concerts and ballet concerts. So it’s great also for that experience if you also can’t afford hobbies and to get out there and have um, things to do, it also brings that option on the table.

Emily (18:12): Um, so I wanna follow up on two pieces to that for the first is the mindset. Um, this is not for people like me. But you mentioned you were making a thousand dollars a month. Yeah. Like that’s not a lot of money in an expensive city. Yeah. As you mentioned. So like, I, I’m glad that you brought up like the fluctuating expenses too, because you might think in a given month, I don’t have any problems paying for food this month. So I don’t need this program. But then the next month you have an unexpected expense that comes up. And like you said, the food is like the variable thing that can get sacrificed that month and it’s just not a position that you want to be in. It’s better to be precautionary, take all the benefits that you’re eligible for, um, use them to the fullest extent, and then have more reserves to be able to build up for those unexpected, um, expenses that might come up. So I’m really glad that you mentioned this and that and that you did take advantage. I want to learn more about, okay. You initially read grad students weren’t eligible, then you found out that you were, what, what changed? What was the difference?

Fern (19:07): I don’t know. I didn’t ask. I just, I just applied. I told them how much I made and they said yes. I, I don’t know if it’s one of those things where it’s like, we’re gonna look the other way. Um, it’s just graduate students are in this unique position where we’re students, but we’re employees and the taxes are different. And like, I’m not poor, but I’m below the poverty line, but I have an iPhone. So it’s really weird mindset and like thing to get into. And also this, like, I don’t wanna take resources from the people that really need it, but also I qualify for these resources. So it’s this like weird situation that I had to just get over and be like, just apply if they say no, no. Which eventually they did say no once I got my fellowship and I now I make too much money for them.

Fern (19:55): Um, but yeah, I think it’s important that if there’s resources out there, if it’s food stamps and this and that, I was like, oh my God, I can’t believe I’m gonna be on food stamps. And I was like, no, this is great. I love ’em. I can go to $5 Chinese gardens and explore. It’s something that otherwise I wouldn’t be able to afford because it’s too expensive and I can afford food, which is great, and I don’t have to stress out about buying that. And it’s nice because it’s an allocated amount of money that’s specific for groceries. I cannot go and spend it on anything else. So yeah, I, I don’t know what was different in the application process. The website says that I shouldn’t have qualified, but I did qualify. So worked out for me.

Emily (20:34): I like that approach of just like, make them tell you no. Just, just apply, just push if they say no. Okay. You weren’t any worse off than you were beforehand, but hey, they said yes. And like again, credit to that cohort behind you for like experimenting with this and just pushing for it and helping everybody by, you know, sharing what they found out.

Fern (20:54): Yeah, definitely. They’re, they helped change my mindset and they’re helping change the program for the better.

Using Medicaid for Health Insurance During the PhD Program

Emily (21:00): I love it. Okay. So were there any other public benefits that you’ve been taking advantage of?

Fern (21:05): Yeah, the, I can’t remember the difference between Medicare and Medicaid, but I’m on that and that’s for health insurance. Portland State University has mandatory health insurance, so this is crazy. One thing that I don’t like about my university is that if you don’t have health insurance, they automatically enroll you in the university’s health insurance, which is very expensive. It’s like 300 a month. And that’s a little ridiculous to me because if you can’t afford to have health insurance, then they get you on their expensive health insurance. And yeah, it’s, it’s weird. I appreciate the aspect of wanting to keep the overall community healthy, but at the same time as employees wouldn’t qualify for health insurance from the university whereas other universities do. So I, uh, decided to apply for the, uh, Obamacare and again, I qualified for that and I have it and it’s in Oregon. It’s actually great. It’s a, it’s completely free for me and I have a really great doctors and a really good network of doctors. I was able to go to the dentist after like five years of not being able to afford it. So another great benefit to use.

Emily (22:12): Yeah, absolutely. I mean it’s so common. All universities require that their students have health insurance. Um, it’s unfortunate. It sounds like their internal option is, is unaffordable, like you said for the students, but, um, it’s so great. Obviously this is a very state by state thing, but great that Oregon has a robust exchange and with your income and everything you were able to qualify at that, um, it sounds like zero premium, right? Yeah. So that’s immediate. Yeah. And another great thing to look into.

Fern (22:38): Yeah. And it’s like above a percentage of the poverty level. So you can be, I think 200% above the poverty level and still qualify in Oregon, but it varies by state.

Commercial

Emily (22:49): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Changes to Budgeting Throughout Graduate School

Emily (23:41): Now you mentioned to me that the way you budget has changed throughout graduate school. We’ve already seen some hints of that in the changing of the funding and the different, you know, sources of income and so forth. But can you tell us about how you used to budget and then how you budget now?

Fern (23:55): Yeah, so the simple storyline is that I didn’t budget. I was just have my money and spend it and not know where it went. And I would get my, uh, student loans and I would put half of them ’cause I get them per term. So every three months. Um, so I would put half of them on my savings accounts. That was not a high yield savings account, so they was just sitting there doing nothing. And then I would just keep the rest of my, uh, checking accounts and just hope that the number didn’t get to, to zero. So try to keep it as high as possible, but no idea where my money was going, how much money I was spending, and how what my stable fixed expenses looked like every month. And then finally what my advisor offered the fellowship and she’s like, Hey, you should go on this fellowship.

Fern (24:42): I was like, oh, I don’t know. I can’t do student loans. I have to look into it. And at the time I had moved in with my partner and I was like, well, my rent is about to be cheaper. My, I have, I’m on food stamps, so my groceries about to be cheaper, so maybe I can afford it, but I’m not sure. So this is where the scientists mindset came in. It’s like, okay, I need objective data to look at my situation and make an informed decision. So that’s when I had a breakdown for what I first did is track my expenses for a month. And that’s when I realized like, oh, I go to the grocery, like I buy little snacks here and there way too much and I’m spending too much at the bars and why am I buying shoes that I can’t afford?

Fern (25:19): And that was like a wake up call for me. So then I decided to look at my fixed expenses and see what that looks like and see if I had any money left over for me to have a decent living because again, I couldn’t take out student loans and I didn’t wanna take on an extra job to protect my wellbeing and my mental health. So if my remaining balance after all my fixed expenses was something like a hundred, that’s just not realistic. That’s just not enough. Especially right now with inflation, everything’s very expensive. So if there was an emergency, anything, I wouldn’t have been able to do it. So it’s like, okay, first thing I need to do is set up my emergency savings. And then I started learning about finances and I was like, okay, I need a high yield savings account so that the money that I have extra is not just sitting there. It’s actually like accumulating interest. And I started doing that and now I know exactly how much I spend on what each month. I know how much I have left over each month. And it’s, yeah, it’s a really good feeling.

Emily (26:16): I’m, I’m so glad to hear about that positive kind of transformation. Um, it sounds like your income source is changing is what really prompted you. You knew you weren’t gonna have that cushion of the student loans, so like you had to get more granular about what was going on in your finances.

Fern (26:30): I’ve always been pretty good at not spending and saving, but now I wanna take it to the next step and make my money work for me. So investing in a a retirement account and knowing what I’m spending on and being more essential with like my buckets of money of like skincare makes me really happy. So I wanna spend more on that and I don’t wanna eat out as much, so I’m cooking a lot more now. So I wanna be a lot smarter with my money beyond just saving and not spending.

Using a Researcher Mindset With Personal Finances

Emily (26:56): Now you mentioned earlier kind of taking, um, the, the researcher’s approach actually looking at the data, um, to figure out where your spending was going and what you would, you really started budgeting, like what were you going to be able to afford? Were you going to be able afford to switch onto this fellowship given the new rent, given all the other changes that were going on? Um, are there any other ways that you’ve employed this like researcher mindset within your personal finances? Aside from setting up the budget?

Fern (27:21): I mean beyond finding you and your account. You know, ’cause my, my friend Morgan always says this to me every time I’m like, oh, I need to do something really hard. And she’s like, you’re getting a PhD, you can do anything. It’s like, you’re right. Like I know how to investigate, I know how to learn. I need to start doing that. So I remember I wanted to get more broad skill sets with data analysis and I was like, well, Excel is always required, so I’m gonna learn how to use Excel. So I’m gonna use a nice spreadsheet as an excuse to learn Excel. And my excuse to do that is gonna be by budgeting. So I have this like really fancy spreadsheet that has formulas that are connected through different tabs and different cells. And I really learned how to use Excel for my advantage and use, uh, data visualization to look like my most expense categories.

Fern (28:09): And I have different percentages for everything. And it’s, yeah. And with that is just learning how to use Excel. So looking at tutorials and then actually doing the work, which is a lot of what we have to do as PhDs when our advisors don’t know how to use something in SPSS and no one else knows how to do it. And you just have to learn how to use an SPSS macro yourself. Um, and then learning the lingo. So like, okay, if I wanna go beyond saving and uh, start investing, what does that look like and what does that mean? And where does it start looking at the experts? Kind of like when you’re doing a lit review and you just have no idea what the topic is about. So you have to read a bunch of articles until you get an like a, an an understanding of what that topic is.

Fern (28:53): It’s the same skill sets can be applied to budgeting and knowing where your money goes and then just implementing that behavioral change. Whenever we write our research articles, and at least in psychology, we always try to make practical recommendations of what organizations can do with the research findings that we have. It’s like, okay, how can we expect other people to follow these behaviors that we’re suggesting to do if we can’t follow the own behaviors that we are learning from budgeting and all these other behavioral things. ’cause also saving money and spending money is very psychological, right? So just the same skills that we learn on research can be applied to anything in particular right now talking about budgeting.

Emily (29:37): I love it. I love the way you articulated that and that mindset and kind of going back to the beginning of what you said, like where your friend Morgan has been telling you. Um, I totally agree and I never like felt so, um, accomplished or like expansive in my person as I did like right after I defended, like I literally felt like I was like on top of a mountain. Like I can do, I finished the, like I finished my dissertation, I defended it, it’s done. I literally can do anything I put my mind to. And even though personal finances are challenging in psychological ways and logistical ways and all that, um, like you said, when you take, I mean all, everyone who gets into a PhD program is so capable and so talented and so smart. And like if you just decide to apply what you card kind of already innately can do in these other areas of your life to your personal finances, like you’re going to be successful. It’s just a matter of time. Yeah. It’s a matter of time and a matter of increasing that income eventually when you get out of graduate school. So eventually. Um, I just love that approach.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (30:32): Well Fern, would you like to wrap up now by telling us your best financial advice for another early career of PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Fern (30:43): Advice. Oh my God, I don’t know if I have any advice. I just feel like advice is so like personal individualized, but I have like a thought that just occurred to me both with what you were saying is that a lot of new PhDs have this huge, especially underrepresented PhDs, you know, women, women of color or people from like low socioeconomic backgrounds whose parents never went, uh, to college or immigrants. It’s, there’s this huge imposter syndrome that we start with. There’s like, oh, I’m not supposed to be here. And now looking back, I think if like the Fern first year Fern saw met with the Fern right now, fourth year Fern, she would be like, oh my God, that girl is so smart and I’ll just never be like her. And like, you know, that is me. So I think it’s really important to understand that it imposter syndrome is just your social comparison of where you think you need to get and where you are.

Fern (31:38): And it’s all about learning. The only way to get over that imposter syndrome is to actually do and increase our self-efficacy and our belief that we can do these things. So just it, and that can apply to anything, right? With budgeting, it’s like, it’s not this imposter syndrome of like, I have to have X amount of money in order to be successful. It’s like you just have to learn how to budget and learn those skills and just do it. And then once you feel confident about it, that imposter syndrome will just eventually dissipate and just pass on that knowledge to people who are just getting started.

Emily (32:09): And that ties in back so well with what we were talking about with like the social programs that you learned about from like your peers and everything. Just not counting yourself out as like, oh, I’m not the type of person who should be doing this at this stage. Yes you are. These programs are designed for you at this current stage. You’re not gonna use them forever. It’s gonna be a temporary thing, but it’s really gonna help you get your feet under you, you know, and you only needed to be on them for, you know, two, three years and now you have this fantastic fellowship and like things are so different in your finances now, just, just after the passage of a little bit of time and a little bit of change of income sources. So again, I’m so glad that you share these, these tips and these insights with the audience. Um, thank you so much for volunteering to come on and being so transparent and I really think people got a ton outta this interview, so thank you.

Fern (32:50): I hope so. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Outtro

Emily (33:03): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How to Apply Valuable Scientific Mindsets to Your Personal Finances

November 21, 2022 by Meryem Ok Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Brock Bennion, a financial advisor with Kimball Creek Partners who draws on his scientific training when he works with clients. Brock and Emily discuss how the mindsets and principles that scientists learn can translate very well into their personal finances, everything from thinking long-term to avoiding flashy experiments to collaboration. Brock also lists the essential personal finance strategies to apply during or following the PhD to avoid making a big mistake.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Brock Bennion Twitter (@kimballcreek)
Kimball Creek Partners
PF for PhDs Tax Workshops
Emily’s E-mail Address
PF for PhDs S13E7 Show Notes
PF for PhDs Speaking (Seminars)
The illustrated guide to a PhD (by Matt Might)
PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List (Access Advice Document)
PF for PhDs Podcast Hub (Show Notes)

S13E7 Image: How to Apply Valuable Scientific Mindsets to Your Personal Finances

Teaser

00:00 Brock: In science, what we learn early on is the value of collaboration and how important it is to get your findings out there as soon as you have something. And you would never wait to present those findings until you were at a conference or you were publishing them in a journal. You find the experts along the way and you workshop it the whole time. We’re hesitant to do that with finances. You’ve got to talk with people who have done it and who have some expertise, even just through their experience. Because if you do that, you will start refining your way to a better answer.

Introduction

00:39 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 7, and today my guest is Dr. Brock Bennion, a financial advisor with Kimball Creek Partners who draws on his scientific training when he works with clients. Brock and I discuss how the mindsets and principles that scientists learn can translate very well into their personal finances, everything from thinking long-term to avoiding flashy experiments to collaboration. Brock also lists the essential personal finance strategies to apply during or following the PhD to avoid making a big mistake. The inevitable—the unavoidable—is approaching. Tax season begins in about two months. But help is on the way! I have been busy this fall creating a new version of my annual federal tax return preparation workshop and updating the versions I have offered in the past. These workshops are designed exclusively for funded graduate students and postdocs.

02:08 Emily: I used to teach this material live for university clients, but in recent years have switched over to offering pre-recorded videos plus Q&A opportunities. I actually much prefer this format because you can work through the content at the time that is best for you, whether January or April or in between, and also at a comfortable pace. For the tax return preparation process in particular, I think it’s very helpful to be able to pause the videos and collect documents or make calculations and rewatch segments if you didn’t catch the nuances the first time through. Plus, you still have the ability to ask questions in case anything is unclear or you aren’t sure how to apply the information to your situation, and frankly these are even better questions than the ones I used to get during fully live workshops because you’ve had time to reflect. I’m very proud of these workshops, and they’ve been reaching more and more graduate students and postdocs every year. The new version of this workshop that I’m offering this coming tax season is for nonresident graduate students and postdocs, and I will continue to offer the versions for U.S. citizen/resident graduate students and U.S. citizen/resident postdocs.

03:20 Emily: If you would like to use one of these workshops in the upcoming tax season, you do have the option to purchase it as an individual via PFforPhDs.com/tax. However, I would much prefer that you gain access to it for free, which you can attempt to arrange by helping me find a sponsor at your university, such as your graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, international house, etc. I’m bringing this up now because these offices and groups generally need some time to figure out if they have any funding available to allocate toward this purpose. Please let me know of your interest in approaching a potential sponsor at your institution by emailing me at [email protected]. I may already have someone in mind! Thanks for your help with spreading the word about these educational tax workshops! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e7/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Brock Bennion.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:28 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on podcast today, Dr. Brock Bennion. He is a PhD from WashU in St. Louis, and he’s also a wealth strategist at Kimball Creek Partners in Tacoma, Washington. So Brock, so delighted that you’re here today. We’ve met on Twitter, which is a really fun way for me to get to meet my guests. So, I’m so glad that we, you know, had some exchanges over there and now here you are on the podcast. So, this is really fun. And would you please introduce yourself to the audience a little bit further?

04:56 Brock: Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Emily, it’s, it’s great to be here. It’s great to talk to you kind of face-to-face, like you said, it’s fun to meet people online. Like you said, I’m a wealth strategist at Kimball Creek Partners. My background is in biology. I was an immunologist, studied at Washington University. I studied viruses and autoimmune diseases and how those two things work together and I absolutely loved it. I still love science. I think it’s amazing, but I am enjoying my career here and, you know, we might talk about how I ended up here and why I did that. But now, I love talking about the interface of science and finance and how these things come together. And so, when you offered me the chance to come on the podcast, I thought, well, that sounds like a lot of fun.

Research Mindsets that Translate into Finance

05:38 Emily: So, we decided on our topic for today being, you know, for the researchers in the audience, the PhDs and PhDs-to-be who are listening, who want to enhance their practice of personal finance. What are the mindsets that we have already developed or are developing as researchers that are really going to serve us well if we’re able to translate those over into this personal finance space? And so, you and I kind of collaboratively came up with a list of a few different points together. So, we’re just going to talk through those and kind of have fun with this like, idea of translating these mindsets from research into the practice of personal finance. So, what was the first one that we came up with, Brock? And let’s start us off.

06:21 Brock: Well, so first we talked about the importance of kind of knowing your goal. I mean, if there is again, a unique aspect of a PhD, it’s the variable size and length, but how you really do view your projects in terms of years. You know, it’s not, you know, this semester’s, you know, test or you know, the upcoming quiz. It’s okay, how do I craft a story that takes place over, you know, years and then, you know, beyond your graduate work, you know, sometimes decades-long, you know, pursuits. And that’s what finance really is. You know, if you are thinking about finance properly, you’re thinking about it in terms of your life, and often beyond that and legacy planning for, you know, future generations and setting up your kids for their success. And that’s a really great skill. And something I think is underappreciated as a PhD student is the ability to say, okay, I’m starting at zero, you know, and I want to go to this point far off in the future. And that applies really well to finance, to be able to say, I’m starting at zero. How do I get to where I want to be? And let’s build a plan to get there.

07:31 Emily: I completely agree. This is one of the points that I kind of start off one of my talks with, The Graduate Student and Postdoc’s Guide to Personal Finance. I like to start off on a like a positive note of like, encouragement for the people in the audience who might feel a little bit like intimidated about, you know, a lot of people are uncomfortable talking about their finances or learning. So, I like to say to them like, if you as a PhD student or postdoc already have like a grand vision for your career and for how graduate school or your postdoc fits in to that vision of your career, you have to do that to get to the stage of being in graduate school. Like you have to write it in your essays, like how this is going to play into your career.

08:11 Brock: Exactly.

08:12 Emily: And so, you’re doing that long-term planning on the career side. And so if you could just pivot that and think about, you know, the decades in your finances and what you want your vision for your life to be, over not just the next few years, but you know, the decades, that’s already a skill that you’re developing there. And you just have to put it over to the other side of the finances and apply it there and it’s going to serve you really, really well. And I’m also thinking now about how like, you know, in setting goals, like, okay, this is what I want my career to be. And then you can break that down. Okay, that means this is what I want to do for my graduate degree and then I think I’m probably going to follow that up with a postdoc or this type of job after that.

Financial Goal-Setting

08:49 Emily: And you know, as you said earlier, people can pivot. You and I both, you know, made some pivots after graduate school, but we at least, you know, you can at least start down that path with a plan. And I think that is similar in the finances, right? Have the goals for the decades, but then back that out and have the goals for 10 years and five years and one year. And then that breaks down to your current goals as well. Yeah, is there anything you want to say about those, like links of time or like decision-making around goal-setting?

09:15 Brock: I think you’re right that like what PhDs do really well is they set these long goals, but then also that they set little goals to get there, which is the step of goal-setting that I think most people fall flat on. I’d say the first problem is people don’t set goals to begin with. If you ask somebody what are your financial goals, they’ll often just give you a blank stare. You should have some goals. And then what you need though, you need lots of small goals that get you there. You know, so if your goal is to discover, you know, something, you know, or show that a drug works, there are all these experiments that go into how does that line up? For the same way, when you’re doing a financial goal, one, you have to pick what your goal is. You have to know where you want to go. But then you’ve got to set the little goals to get there. It’s doing both of those things that really is where you harness the power of goal-setting and of planning.

Long-Term Goal: Retirement

10:03 Emily: I’d love to hear some examples now, like in that financial realm of a really long-term goal and then some more short-term or intermediate-term goals that will help you get there to that long-term goal.

10:13 Brock: Yeah, so usually, I mean, one that we talk about is just retirement. Now, not every scientist wants to retire. I used to joke that the retirement plan of many scientists, especially in academia, is something like drop dead in your office at 95 as you’re writing a grant, you know? But for those that do want to retire, you’ve got to come up with an idea of what that retirement looks like. You know, basic things of where you’re going to live, what do you want to spend your time doing? Because few people just stop and play golf now. I mean, that’s not really what retirement looks like for most people. And then, put a dollar figure on what that costs. Say, well, you know, if I want to travel abroad three times a year, once I retire, well you know, what’s that going to cost me? And then back out from there, and once you start getting a goal of a lifestyle type of thing, you put a big dollar sign on that. And then you take that big dollar sign, you break it down into smaller dollar signs of, well how much is that on a yearly basis? And then what do I need to start saving now to be able to accumulate those kinds of funds to be able to live that kind of lifestyle?

11:24 Emily: This example of retirement is one that I end up speaking about a lot because it’s obviously one of those biggest goals within personal finance that takes so long to properly prepare for, you know, and employing the power of compound interest and so forth. But I’m remembering that when I was in graduate school, and to some extent up until just like a couple of years ago, I didn’t really have that vision of what I wanted my retirement to look like. So, my shorter-term goal was just start saving and start investing and assume that you’re going to get to like the more specific vision later. Because I know it’s going to take investing to some degree either way. And I wonder if there’s a parallel that we can draw over to like the process of getting your PhD or your career on the other side of it. Like maybe it is just, okay, I’m pretty sure I need to have a PhD to do something with my career later in this area. So, I feel like a PhD is a good thing to complete, and that’s a nice five or so, you know, year term goal.

Value of Planning and Collaboration (PhD/Finance)

12:20 Brock: And I think with that recognizing though, like from the beginning, you’re investing a certain amount of time in your PhD, and what do you expect the return to be on the end? You know, for some people, it’s the logical next step from undergraduate. For others, they know going in, well this is what I want to do. And others figure it out along the way. And that’s totally fine whatever path you find yourself in, but you should be actively looking for your plan and your outcome. You know, the future belongs to those who go out and get it. And if you’re always just taking things as it comes, that’s an okay thing to do as you’re figuring things out. But eventually, you’ve got to set your sights on something, and you’ve got to go and get it.

13:04 Brock: And that’s exactly what I think a PhD teaches you really well to do. We all know the person who sat at their bench and didn’t do any experiments and eventually, they had to go do those experiments. And we all know the person that came in every morning at 6:00 AM and was off working, and they got a lot of stuff done. It’s no different in finance or in life. The other thing that you kind of brought up before, and I think, you know, dovetails nicely at this, is the hesitancy that people have to talk about their finances with others, and how they kind of hold this in close. And what I find so interesting is that’s so counter to good science <laugh> right? In science, what we learn early on is the value of collaboration and how important it is to get your findings out there as soon as you have something.

13:55 Brock: You know, from the time that, hey, I have this idea, and you go and you share it with somebody and they say, well that’s a terrible idea, but you know what, if you did this, this would be a better idea. And then you go down the hall and tell somebody else and they say, well that’s a pretty good idea. We could do this experiment that would find out if it would be a really good idea. And, and you would never wait to present those findings until you were at a conference or you were publishing it in a journal. You find the experts along the way and you workshop it the whole time. We’re hesitant to do that with finances. We say, well I want to keep this secret until I’m totally secure. Right? Once I’ve become financially independent, then maybe I’ll talk about my struggles early on or whatever it is.

14:36 Brock: And I think whether you’re choosing, you know, the loan forgiveness pathway or you’re trying to decide is now the right time to buy a house or should I go to a high cost-of-living area for this job that I think has potential? You’ve got to talk with people who have done it and who have some expertise, even just through their experience. Because if you do that, you will start refining your way to a better answer. And you don’t just talk about it once you talk about it every chance you get because everybody will add something different and you’ll form a really good understanding of where you want to go.

15:11 Emily: This is definitely something that, at least I would think many graduate programs you’re taught and encouraged to do this. In fact, find peers and collaborators at many different levels. You have your peers, like other people in your cohort or in your program or in your lab and they’re going through the similar, you know, struggles that you are and they can have something to say about your thought process or your goals or what have you. And then you have your mentor and then you have your committee, and then you have maybe a collaborator at another institute. You know, there are many different levels of people who can help and guide you. And you’re right that we don’t, I mean on like the personal finance side of things, I’m trying to think because like, yeah, some people work with someone like you, like a financial advisor usually after they have some money to be advised upon <laugh>.

Overcoming Stigma

15:54 Emily: And then before that point, when you’re in the, let’s say the training stage and you’re just like trying things out and trying to get some debt paid off and get your, you know, your investing off the ground or whatever’s happening, it’s much less common to talk either with peers or with a mentor or someone who’s been there before. And you know, I do kind of serve as that role as like an educator, but I don’t have like one-to-one relationships with people. It’s more of a teaching like mechanism for me. But people, yeah, don’t tend to talk very much among their peers, even though they could be really good, resources and sounding boards. Yeah, what have you seen, like, I guess with your clients or have you seen any way to like kind of overcome this stigma that we have?

16:34 Brock: You know, it’s hard. Like any stigma, you know, and if we’re talking about, you know, mental illness or social issues or whatever it is, any stigma is best broken by breaking it. And you really just kind of have to start and realize that most people don’t judge. Most people are very accepting, very welcoming to that being honest and open. And you actually forge some real connections with that. You know, some of the best relationships that, you know, me and my wife made during our grad school years were with other couples who were going through the exact same thing. And we’d talk about, you know, our struggles of how do you make this work in the finances, and everybody’s dealing with the same stuff. And typically, people who have already overcome are even more empathetic because they remember those years and they think about, well, how could I have been helped? I wish I would’ve known this, I wish I would’ve known this. And it’s really valuable.

17:32 Emily: I think that’s definitely an encouragement to the listeners to talk with whoever’s a little further along than you are. Like if you’re an entering graduate student, talk with an older graduate student, talk with a postdoc, anyone who’s at like a later stage. And what’s kind of interesting about academia, I mean, obviously people come from very different, um, financial backgrounds. And you know, some people might be deeply in debt coming into graduate school. Some people might have resources from their parents or maybe a prior job that they had before they started graduate school. We can all be coming from different places, but within your program, it’s pretty likely that people are being paid somewhere in a similar range to each other unless there’s like an outside fellowship involved or something like, so at least you have some degree of commonality that you can like start conversations from. Like, oh wow, you know, rent is like 40% of my income.

18:22 Emily: My goodness, what are you paying for rent? I love that question. What are you paying for rent? It’s a very easy one to answer. Everybody knows how much they’re paying for rent. And it’s low stakes, right? Like, it’s not a judgment, oh, you’re paying more or less, whatever. Oh, we found a great deal. I’d love to know how you did that. I literally did this in graduate school because I ultimately moved a couple times in graduate school, and by the time I got to the last place that we stayed, it was like the best deal that I ever lived in during that period of time. It was because I asked people, how much are you paying for this place? Seems great. Oh wow, I can’t believe it’s that little. I’m going to get on the waiting list. You know? So, it it took that like collaboration, like we were talking about earlier, in sharing information to get to those great tactics that actually really help your finances when you can do something like reduce rent. One quick example, easy example. Very easy to talk to other people about rent. I found <laugh>.

19:09 Brock: No, that’s a super great example. No, and I love that because you’re right, people, everybody knows what it is and you know, you don’t judge anybody. You know, you don’t feel any judgment. You feel like you got a deal if somebody’s saying, oh, I paid this or I paid this, and Oh, that’s a great question. I like that.

Commercial

19:26 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2022-2023 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Not-Flashy Experiments in Research and in Finance

20:49 Emily: Another point that we put in our outline was to choose experiments that you are fairly confident are going to work in the sense that they are going to give you information. And the way you put that was don’t be flashy. So, what does this in the research realm, and then how does this translate over to the personal finance realm?

21:11 Brock: Yeah, I hope this wasn’t just me in grad school, but I feel like a lot of grad students, maybe it was just me, you know, early on, will sit down with their advisor and say, Hey, I read in the literature about, you know, this new aspect, this new cool thing that’s out, and I was thinking that this might be affecting this, which might be affecting this, which is actually driving, you know, my project. And you know, the advisor lovingly looks at you and says, mm, probably not <laugh>. You know, like that’s a really long stretch. It could be, and if it did, it’d be really cool and to be really impactful, but the chances of that being true, that’s not really well-grounded in the literature. And then they steer you to some experiments that whether or not, you know, whether you get a positive result that you’re expecting or a negative result, it’s the right question to be asking.

21:59 Brock: It’s the right experiment to be doing and that can go into your paper, you know, be part of your project. And, you know, often people will ask, you know, what do I need to do to be financially independent? And like a really basic way to start is save 10% of your income. Not super flashy. It’s not about a specific investment or it’s not about, you know, doing a fixer upper home or having a side hustle or whatever it is. It’s just, you know, what, if you save 10% of your income, you put it away super diligently for 30 years. I don’t run into many people that have done that and aren’t in a good place financially. They may not be super rich, but they’re in a good place financially. They did something with a high degree of probability that it was going to work, and it worked <laugh>.

22:51 Emily: I think the way that I would put this, and I’m trying, I think this was advice that I sort of, I don’t think I applied it but I sort of heard it during graduate school, was to have a couple of sort of safe aspects to your project. Maybe more conservative, maybe more likely to pan out. And then take one high flyer on some strange idea you have. But don’t devote all of your time to it, right? We’re talking about 10, 20%, something like that. And have, you know, in terms of like constructing your dissertation, like have a couple of chapters that you’re pretty sure are going to work out and then save your, you know, strange, unique, possibly very high reward, but also very high-risk idea for, you know, the last one, right?

23:32 Brock: Yes.

23:32 Emily: And so, I think that that translates over very well to personal finance. It’s like, yeah, a few people might, you know, make it big financially on essentially a gamble, but the vast majority of people do not win the lottery, whatever, you know, the crypto lottery, whatever the version of the lottery is that you’re playing. You can try it, but with the vast majority of your resources, let’s do something that’s a little more tried and true. As you were kind of saying earlier, like, you know, I think about, and maybe we’ll link it in the show notes if you can find this, but I don’t know if it’s a PhD comic or xkcd or something like that, but it’s like, you know, a circle and it’s like these are the boundaries of human knowledge, and the PhD is like putting a little tiny bump on the edge of that circle, you know, like that. It’s the same thing with finances. Like the circle is like, do the stuff like saving 10% of your income, having insurance, like do all the regular stuff that is boring. It’s not flashy, but it’s going to work. And then, okay, yeah. Like, let’s take a little risk over here and a little risk over here as, you know, your personality might lead you to, or something like that. Is that another way of phrasing what you said?

24:38 Brock: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are things that you should do that make a lot of sense. And then yeah, you know, I’m certainly not saying you can’t take any risk or you can’t, you know, say, have fun with some aspects of your finance. But where you get hurt is when you devote too much time to that, just like you would in a project where if you spend all your time doing high-risk projects, maybe you get lucky and you hit it out of the park, but most likely you’ll end up with a lot of dead ends. You’ll be years into your project and you won’t really have a good foundation. And that’s what we’re trying to avoid.

Not-Flashy Personal Finance Advice (But it Works)

25:15 Emily: So, let’s give people some not-flashy personal finance advice. Let’s come up with like, I don’t know, three or five like baseline things, not flashy stuff, great strategies to be using. Whether that starts during graduate school or starts a little bit afterwards if they’re not quite ready for them yet. What’s on your list?

25:31 Brock: Well, I mean, you know, you’ll always hear, you know, my favorite is they’ll always say something like, you know, man, if only I bought, you know, insert whatever tech company in the nineties, you know, now I’d have, you know, this whole fleet of jets or something, right? Like, what people don’t say is, man, I sure wish I bought a diversified low-expense ETF in the nineties. But if you did that and you waited 30 years, it grew <laugh>, it worked. And there were a lot of companies in the nineties that just went away. And so yes, we can in hindsight look back and say, it would’ve been great to have bought this one that became big and changed the world. But if you just bought a low-expense, you know, ETF-type solution, it’s not flashy, it didn’t make you a billionaire, but it did work and it did grow.

26:19 Emily: Because, also by the way, it probably included that flashy tech company, whatever the sector was that, you know, is hot at the time, right? You just bought a tiny bit of it instead of a hundred percent of your bets on that. But the thing is like when you make that diversified portfolio bet, as you were just saying, you’re going to have some winners in there. If the economy is winning, you’re going to be winning with that portfolio. And you’re going to have a lot of losers in there, too. But thank goodness you bought some of the winners as well because you were so well diversified and it didn’t rely on your research and your ingenuity and your insights and blah, blah, blah to pick those out. Okay, so passive investing, index funds, ETFs, that’s a non-flashy strategy. Great. What else is on your list?

26:58 Brock: You need to have some form of life insurance if you have people that depend on you. Now, this does not mean an expensive, you know, universal whole life, whatever policy. But what we’ll tell people is, you know, make a list of everybody you say I love you to. Put a checkmark next to anybody you’re financially responsible for, and then ask yourself what would happen to those people if I wasn’t here? It’s not a flashy way to do it, and the goal is that you die never using it, but if you’re wrong and you don’t have that, you could leave people that you care about in a very unfortunate position.

27:42 Emily: Yep. Love it. And I want to add to that disability insurance too.

27:45 Brock: Yes.

27:45 Emily: Own occupation. Okay. What else is on your list?

Don’t Overextend Yourself

27:48 Brock: Just little things like don’t overextend yourself. Keep a budget, you know. Understand where are you putting your money every week? Is that in line with your priorities? And the example I sheepishly use, soon after undergraduate, I found myself working at a company as a microbiologist and I would go to lunch at just a sandwich shop every day. And all of a sudden I looked back and I’d spent like $300 that month going to the sandwich shop. Well, it didn’t put me in a bad financial position, but I thought, this is not in line with my priorities. It didn’t bring me that much more joy and to think that I could have put that money to something that had, you know, more in line with what I wanted to be doing, well that compounded over time. And so, again, there’s nothing flashy about bringing your lunch or making those small purchases and funneling your money in the direction you want it to, but it does work and it does add up, especially when you start early.

28:52 Emily: Yeah, I think I would phrase that as like an awareness of your money and just being willing to make adjustments when things are kind of out of alignment. And as you said, not overextending yourself. When you said that, I always think of housing and transportation, right? Like large fixed expenses, like especially challenging during graduate school, but like as much as possible, keep those in alignment with your overall income at that time. It’s obviously going to be really challenging in high cost-of-living areas, but just do the best you can during that kind of strange period of life, and you’ll be able to be more in balance later on when your salary is higher. But do the best you can and be aware of it. And like we talked about earlier, just be aware of opportunities where maybe you could find a way to spend a little less on one of these expenses if you feel overextended in that area.

Focus on Your Main Job

29:38 Brock: The last one I might add to this is just lots of times, people will focus on having a side hustle or side job, which is great if you enjoy that. I’ll often talk to people about focus on your first job. You know, there are things especially early in your career that you can take on more responsibility in different areas and accelerate your career growth and your career trajectory so that you’re making more money and you don’t have to spend 10 hours a night doing something else. You could spend an extra hour at your job and show that you’re willing to take on more responsibility and you grow. And as your salary grows, you don’t let your lifestyle creep with it, but you find ways to put that money to where you value most.

30:25 Emily: I love that point, kind of the rise of the side hustle corresponded with when I was in graduate school, like during the great recession, I think you were there at that time as well. And you know, at that time it was like sort of a necessity thing. Like a lot of people didn’t have primary jobs, couldn’t make more of their primary jobs, so they were turning to the side hustle. And then sometimes we were talking about earlier, like you see these successes of people who have a great side hustle or turn their side hustle into their main thing and their businesses and forth. And that can seem really attractive. But the 80/20 on this is just make more at your primary job as best you’re able to. And that could be through negotiation, that could be through, I want to say like preparation.

31:03 Emily: So, as a graduate student, as a postdoc, I want you to negotiate, I want you to apply for the fellowships. I want you to advocate for yourself. Absolutely. But if you’ve done that to the greatest degree you can and that’s where your income is for the time being until you graduate or move on or whatever, what you can still be doing is preparing for that next stage in your career through professional development, through networking, through gaining more skills. And so, that will pay off later. It’s not going to be in the immediate future, but when you have that first post-PhD, you know, career, job or whatever, that’s when it can sort of be like pedal to the medal and you’re going to apply all that stuff you learned, you’re going to negotiate, you’re going to do all the stuff to get that great salary.

31:39 Brock: Yeah.

Don’t Be Wrong

31:40 Emily: And the last point on our outline, Brock, I love the way you said this was, don’t be wrong, <laugh>. So, what do you mean by that?

31:48 Brock: Well, it comes back to the idea of, you know, doing what works. But we’d often say that the number one rule in science is don’t be wrong. You don’t have to be totally right. Nobody publishes a paper and at the end says, and this is it. No reason for a follow-up study, no reason for discussion. This is the end of the study. No, everybody has more questions. Every good study brings up implications and has things that spread from it. What you can’t do in a study is say something that’s wrong. You can’t make a claim that’s unsubstantiated, you can’t, you know, lead the field down the wrong path. You don’t have to be a hundred percent right, but you can’t be wrong <laugh> if that makes sense. And it goes the same way for finances. Making bad investments, things that are too risky early on, paying way too much than you should for things like a car or a house early on in your career. Those are things that can get you sideways financially and really throw you off course for a long time. It is better to just not be a hundred percent right. Talk about buying a diversified fund or something like that. You buy everything, you buy some losers, you buy some winners, you’re not wrong even if you’re not a hundred percent right. And I really think that’s important. Too many people are looking for that, well what’s the trick that’ll get me there faster? And it’s those tricks that usually mess you up.

33:22 Emily: Yeah, I feel like we went over this a little bit when we were talking about those like non-flashy strategies. Because the flashy strategies are the ones where we’re like, well, you might be right, but you definitely might be wrong as well. And it takes a lot of time to like figure that out, right? I mean, if you are an active investor for example, and you love to pick your own stocks, time will tell whether your strategy was successful or not. But it’s going to be time over like decades, not over like a year. And there’s less time to course correct once you’ve figured out that statistically that did not, you know, work out very well for you. So, don’t make a big mistake like we talked about earlier, like having sufficient insurance, not just life and disability insurance, which we mentioned, but like keeping health insurance and all that other stuff. Like insurance generally is one of those like nobody wants to pay for it, but guess what? The reason why the product exists is because you have an area in your life where if something terrible happened, you would not financially be able to recover from that, or at least not very quickly. That’s why you have the home insurance and the renters insurance and all that stuff. So like insurance is definitely one of those like, don’t make a mistake kind of products like yeah, it’s not pleasant to pay for it, but what’s really unpleasant is if that thing happens that you’re trying to insure against.

34:30 Brock: Yeah, we talk about, you know, you invest in what’s probable and you insure against what’s possible. So, the things that are possible but financially devastating if they were to occur, that’s where insurance can mitigate that. We don’t invest in those kind of things that are possible but not probable. We invest in what’s probable, insure against what’s possible.

34:51 Emily: Interesting. And can you think of any other areas that would be like a big mistake? Something that we haven’t already mentioned?

34:58 Brock: Yeah, I mean the one that comes to mind, and this is probably for people considering a graduate school or something like that, but where I look at people who go into a program and don’t finish. Or, you know, and I’ve seen people that drop out, you know, maybe just after five years, but just a year or two away from finishing that you get going down the wrong path and you decide that’s not for you, but you leave taking away nothing. It’s better to finish all the way to the end and then pivot once you’re out, and this isn’t for everybody, but in a lot of cases. Because then you have something to show for that. You show you’ve completed this, then you can move on to the next thing. But where again, you can get yourself really sideways is if you spend half a decade or more going down a path only to drop everything and not at least attempt to build on that momentum that you came up with.

35:57 Emily: Yeah, this is an interesting point and I feel like actually it could apply in other areas of career as well. Like not just the choice to go to graduate school or not, but sort of going down the wrong just career path generally for you. And it goes back to what we were talking about earlier about knowing yourself, knowing your values, knowing your personality. And I think just as soon as you start to notice a misalignment with whatever is going on in that area, it behooves you to examine that and then take action. Whether that’s the action to decide to finish, let’s say the PhD, the action to leave at that point before you, you know, spend three years in that state and not take any action about it. Because there are off ramps, right? Out of academia that can still be fruitful.

Be Open to Pivoting

36:35 Brock: Oh, I’m obviously all for pivoting. Me and my career, I pivoted. I think it’s great. I think you have opportunities throughout your career to pivot. But there’s a way to build on your pivots so that they aren’t turning around, but just changing course. And I think that’s important.

36:54 Emily: Yeah, I think actually my career has been an illustration of this point, actually, because I started knowing maybe around two years into graduate school that I probably wasn’t going to continue in research. But at that point, I really did a heavy reexamination period for about a year and decided that I did want to finish the PhD and it was because I was interested in several, you know, quote unquote alternative career tracks where the PhD would be useful. And so, I finished and then I picked my head up and did another reevaluation and said, oh, but I really love personal finance now and I really wanna go in this direction. So, I ended up pivoting again. But as you said, I was very happy that I got to the credential and got to the finish point because it has been useful since then. Then again, if I had been certain earlier that I didn’t want the PhD, then that would’ve been a good point to take that exit.

37:42 Brock: Exactly. Because, just like you said, those additional years that you would’ve invested. I mean, the relationship between time and money I think is very important. And, you know, whether it’s that you realize that my time is more important spent in this other direction, that’s great. Pivot. Leave grad school if that’s the right call for you. But know and recognize what you’re giving up and what you’re changing to. Because those are the kind of decisions that, you know, make a big swing in your career, in your finances, in your life. You’ve got to pay attention where you’re swinging.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

38:19 Emily: I want to finish up now with the final question that I ask all of my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And we’ve talked about so much like advice-y kind of stuff in this podcast episode already that I actually want to give you a more specific assignment, if you don’t mind.

38:36 Brock: Yeah. Okay.

38:37 Emily: Which is that you mentioned earlier that you had children while you were in graduate school. And so, I would love it if you would give advice for another graduate student or early-career PhD who has children maybe at a time when their peers do not yet have children, and what is some financial advice for that person?

38:54 Brock: You know, I <laugh> that’s a hard one. It is hard to have kids in grad school, but for me it was so worth it. It was great. My wife and I are a fantastic team. I hope she would say the same, and certainly she shouldered a lot of that burden. And I wouldn’t have been able to focus on grad school the way I did if it wasn’t for her support. And, you know, she deserves probably more credentials than I do. The advice that I would give to somebody thinking about this is to be really intentional with your time. Kids, whether you have one or I have three now, so I can speak up to three, they take up all your time. No matter how many you have. They are, you know, they expand to the volume to which, you know, the container holds.

39:51 Brock: And so, you need to be very good about structuring your day and your time so that you can be where you need to be. Now when kids are young, they don’t really know whether you’re home or not. So, it’s as much about supporting, you know, your other team member, you know, your significant other, in that process. And you need to do that. You need to be an equal team. But know that you will have less time. You will have competing priorities, and it will be hard. But I’d say that’s okay because it’s really fun. I’m a big fan of kids <laugh>.

40:37 Emily: I think, you know, the first thing you mentioned there was like time management basically, like being really intentional about where you put your time. And that’s something that I’ve definitely been learning as a business owner and as a parent. Sort of like the, when you’re at work, be all at work, be really focused, get what you need to get done in that time. And then when you’re at home, be off of work, be with your kids, like have that quality time together. And hopefully, you can make the arrangements with your partner and your childcare provider and all this stuff so you have that like, committed time that you can devote to both. But yeah, like you just become pretty, I at least have become a lot more hands-on manage-y about my time because I need to be now that that’s a factor in my life.

41:23 Brock: Yeah. And again, it’s different ways of doing it. You know, so I mean, I had friends in grad school that they would come in later in the day and they’d stay until three in the morning. And that worked really well for them. And for me it was get in early and leave in time for dinner at home and come back if I needed to, if there was a late night time point or something for an experiment. But you need to find something that works for you. You know, your life, your finances, have a goal of what you want that to look like and then you make a plan to get there. It’s not easy. It’s actually incredibly difficult, but it is worth it, and you will find more happiness if you do it that way.

42:06 Emily: I love that note to end on. Thank you so much, Brock, for giving this interview. It’s been a pleasure to talk with you.

42:11 Brock: Thanks so much for having me on, Emily. It’s great talking.

Outtro

42:18 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Graduate Student Doesn’t Sweat the (Financially) Small Stuff

October 10, 2022 by Meryem Ok Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Keiland Cooper, a fourth year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of California, Irvine. Thanks to his inquisitive nature, Keiland has developed a financial philosophy that he has applied to his own financial management practices since his days as an undergraduate. Through focusing on the big picture, he has increased his income as a graduate student and right-sized his housing and transportation costs, which has enabled him to accumulate cash savings and invested assets. You won’t want to miss Keiland’s insight at the end of the interview into the optimal money mindset for a graduate student.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

Personal Finance Notes from Keiland
PF for PhDs Office Hours
PF for PhDs S13E4 Show Notes
ContinualAI
PF for PhDs Community
How Effective Altruism Works (Stuff You Should Know Podcast Episode)
PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List (Access Advice Document)
PF for PhDs Podcast Hub (Show Notes)

Image for S13E4: This Graduate Student Doesn't Sweat the (Financially) Small Stuff

Teaser

00:00 Keiland: We’re all PhD students. Think of it as like a research project, right? There have been times when I’ve sat down and like analyzed my financial data in Python, right? It’s, you know, it’s kind of fun to sit down and play with the spreadsheets and add things up. Most of us are nerds here, and finance can be a very nerdy topic. So, it doesn’t all have to be scary. And certainly, all of us are getting PhDs, so we all have the aptitude in one way or another to learn about these topics. Even though some of them might seem really complex at first, they certainly don’t have to be.

Introduction

00:35 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 4, and today my guest is Keiland Cooper, a fourth-year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of California, Irvine. Thanks to his inquisitive nature, Keiland developed a financial philosophy that he has applied to his own financial management practices since his days as an undergraduate. Through focusing on the big picture, he has increased his income as a graduate student and right-sized his housing and transportation costs, which has enabled him to accumulate cash savings and invested assets. Don’t miss Keiland’s insight at the end of the interview into the optimal money mindset for a graduate student.

01:44 Emily: My Office Hours are back for this fall! About once per month, I’m hosting a free Zoom call to which you can bring any financial question or topic that relates to your journey as a PhD or PhD-to-be to discuss with me and the other attendees. These sessions are limited to four people each. Register through PFforPhDs.com/officehours/. I look forward to speaking with you there! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Keiland Cooper.

Would You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:28 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Keiland Cooper. He is a fourth-year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of California Irvine, and we are going to talk today about some mindset shifts and some strategies that he’s found really useful for his finances during graduate school. So, Keiland, welcome to the podcast. Would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

02:48 Keiland: Hi. Yes. It’s really great to be on, and I really admire a lot of your work that you’ve done. I found it really helpful. And part of the reason why I wanted to be on is I think it’s really important and really useful to share, you know, each person’s experience, because we can all learn from it. And I’ve certainly learned a lot from everyone else’s. So, I thought it’d be useful to contribute.

03:11 Emily: Well, yeah, thank you so much for volunteering!

03:13 Keiland: So, I’m Keiland Cooper, as you said. I’m a fourth-year graduate student at University of California Irvine. My PhD’s going to be in neuroscience, and so I study how the brain learns and remembers at the neural circuit and ensemble level. I’m also interested in artificial intelligence and the co-founder of a nonprofit called ContinualAI which is the largest international nonprofit for our branch of neuroscience.

Financial Mindset at the Start of Grad School

03:40 Emily: Oh, wow, okay. Didn’t even know that. Great. Let’s talk about your financial picture when you started graduate school. Like where were you, maybe both literally with your numbers and then also with your like mindset?

03:54 Keiland: Yeah, yeah. So, I knew going into a PhD that, in many ways, it was going to be a big opportunity cost. A lot of friends that I were graduating with from undergrad were, you know, starting with six-figure salaries in a lot of cases. And so, I knew kind of from the get-go that it was going to be a big adjustment from that. But I think telling myself that I’m not doing a PhD obviously for the money or even for what the money could be down the road because that is not necessarily the case, but for other reasons that I felt really important about. So, I absolutely love what I do. I love where I’m doing it at, and love who I’m doing it with. And that was really important to me, and I knew I probably wouldn’t be as happy doing other jobs than starting the PhD. So I think, you know, right from the get-go, that was really, really helpful, at least for me to kind of justify, you know, that kind of change in income. And then everything else just kind of falls out from that.

04:56 Emily: I am really glad that you articulated that perspective. I don’t think that most people go into PhDs for the money, even if they do expect like a better-paying career later on, maybe, than what they could get with their bachelor’s degree. It’s definitely a passion-driven decision. But, I think as I talk about in many other places, and we’ll see during this interview, that doesn’t mean your finances are neglected entirely. We’re still going to focus on them a bit and do the best we can with what we have at that point. But it’s so important to have your priorities straight and your reasons for why you’re embarking on this. I love that. And did you go straight from your undergrad into your PhD program?

05:32 Keiland: I did, yeah.

Debt and Savings After Undergrad

05:33 Emily: Did you have any student loan debt, for example, or any savings coming out of undergrad?

05:38 Keiland: I was really lucky that I didn’t have to take student loans by the end of college. And so, that was a function of, you know, some family savings. And also I worked most of, I mean I worked all four years of college. So, I was really lucky to not have that. But I also lived really very frugally in undergrad, as most people do. I think what was really important for me to do that was I wasn’t living frugally without a goal. So, in my head, I knew that once I saved up, say, you know, three to six months of savings that if I had to drop out or if I couldn’t get a job that I would be able to live or pay rent or do something for about three to six months was like my first goal. Then I would start to feel okay, and I would, you know, not regret paying for other things that maybe I didn’t necessarily need or something like that. So, I think that was really important that, you know, living frugally kind of comes naturally to me, but something certainly didn’t and it is kind of a harder choice. And so, having that kind of goal in mind of, you know, one, it’s not forever, right? Because like once I get this and how I get that and could be strategic about that, at least once I kind of have that number in mind, then I’ll be okay.

07:04 Emily: I think there’s a huge difference between setting the goal for yourself, not even really articulating it as a goal of just, I just need to get by.

07:14 Keiland: Yeah.

07:14 Emily: Right? I’m not going to take out student loans. I’m going to work enough so that I don’t take out student loans. I’m just going to get by. And that is one level, and that is an accomplishment, obviously, to not have to take out student loans. But you went further than that and wanted to provide for yourself a safety net. Did you get to that point by the end of undergrad? Did you have that three to six months of savings?

07:33 Keiland: Yeah, yeah, I did luckily. And that was really important I think from moving in, maybe like towards the end of senior year and then going into to grad school to kind of feel a little bit more comfortable with, you know, meeting new people and going out and not having to worry about, you know, I can’t go out with my friends because I don’t really, you know, spend money this week or something like that. But generally, I think once I kind of had that, I started feeling more comfortable. Not only with just spending money in general, but also thinking about, you know, now that I have that safety net, what’s the next one? Well, probably retirement, so I’m going to open a Roth IRA. And once you have, you know, start spending the extra money have filling up that, you know, bucket or cup. Or if I was in industry, it would be a 401(k) and then Roth IRA to max.

08:23 Keiland: And then once you have that, then you can think, okay, well, you know, I have enough money, I’ve maxed out both my, you know, emergency savings, you know, six to 12 months, my Roth IRA, that’s maxed out. What’s next? Well, you know, I have some money left over, cash gets basically no return. The four big buckets are cash, bonds, stocks, and alternatives. So then, you know, you can start feeling a little bit more comfortable saying, I’m going to spend a little bit of money on stocks, not Roth IRA stocks, but just in general, you know, investing just so you can somehow try and beat inflation in these other things. And then starting to spend a little bit more money on that. Or, you know, I like to donate, and so donating money to certain charities. I have a little bit extra money, I don’t have to worry about, you know, if I give money, then I won’t feel as bad.

09:11 Keiland: And so, that’s kind of how I saw it, is that I have these kind of milestones and cups. And once I, you know, get more comfortable and safe, then I can start doing this next thing, and then I’ll have a little bit more cushion for the next thing. Which for me, as a very financially risk-averse person is kind of a good way to manage, I think, that risk. And at least in the back of my mind, yeah, I have that in case something happens.

Financial Knowledge Resources

09:39 Emily: What you just described about these different milestones and goals is very reminiscent of my financial framework that I teach through my seminars, which you probably haven’t actually encountered because it’s not really on my website. I saved that for the seminars, but yeah, very, very similar to that. So, it sounds like you actually have, or maybe even had, at the point of entering graduate school a pretty high degree of financial knowledge. And I’m wondering where you got that from? Because I think you mentioned in our prep materials that you’re like a first-gen college student, for example. So, like did you learn that from your parents? Or did you learn it from other sources?

10:14 Keiland: Yeah, so yeah, I’m a first-gen undergrad student and certainly a first-gen PhD student in my family. So, like I was saying earlier, a lot of the reason I came on is because I really just had to leverage a lot of resources in other people. And so that was just a function of, you know, asking every question that I could. And not just in, you know, in terms of finance, but pretty much for all of navigating college, and especially the PhD because it’s so you know, such an esoteric thing that is really kind of hard to teach unless you’re in it and you really just get that kind of ad hoc advice. And so yeah, with finance, I learned obviously like everyone, some things from my parents. I certainly learned to live more frugally from, you know, my dad for instance, who also didn’t grow up with a lot of things. And so really knows the value of, you know, having that safety net and feeling comfortable and those things.

11:09 Keiland: But other things, I really just had to learn on my own and from talking to friends and, you know, there’s a lot of research online and asking, you know, professionals questions sometimes when it comes to it. Just cold emails of like my parents didn’t know what a Roth IRA was, or they really didn’t invest in the stock market outside of their 401(k) and what the company had given. And so, those things, you know, you just pick up from all sorts of sources, whether it’s excerpts from books or websites or YouTube talks from professionals over time. There’s really not exactly one source. And I think what also makes it difficult that I found is there’s certainly, like with most things, not one strategy either to build wealth. There are a thousand different strategies, and everyone is going to think that they have their right way to do it, but that’s not necessarily the case, right?

12:04 Keiland: So, there’s a whole cohort of people who think you should have no debt ever. You should try and pay everything in cash than have debt, where on the flip side people are like, Well, no, no, no, debt can be really useful. Why would you buy something with, you know, debt that has a really low interest rate when you could get that more return if you invested that money in something else, Right? So, you know, different strategies to accomplish the same goal and not either of them is necessarily correct. It probably just depends on the individual person and their situation and how they want to navigate things.

Financial Strategies During Grad School

12:41 Emily: Yes. Let’s talk more about strategies now. And I want to kind of divide this into two categories. I want to divide it into what strategies are you using during graduate school that you found fruitful for your finances? And then what have you tried and then discarded along the way because it didn’t work out for you? Because you mentioned in our prep that you like to do experiments, which I love that idea as well. So, let’s start with what you have picked up in terms of strategies during graduate school or have continued from your earlier life.

13:11 Keiland: Yeah, I think the big one that has been probably most helpful for me, one is like I said, having that safety net I think is really important. Just because once you have it, you feel really comfortable and you can start doing other things or you can start working in other areas of finance that you might necessarily do. Another is, I like to focus on the big purchases, or at least put way more effort in the big purchases and big expenditures than the little ones. And so, the famous example is everyone yelling at millennials for buying Starbucks coffee. Too much Starbucks coffee each month. And I would much rather be able to not worry about whether or not I’m buying a Starbucks coffee each day than how much money am I paying for rent. Because in the long-term, that rent cost is going to far exceed, I would have to drink a lot of Starbucks coffee to exceed the amount that that rent will cost.

14:18 Emily: I totally agree with this, like getting those, I call them the big rocks. Getting the big rocks in your budget right. But you live in Orange County, California and it’s hugely expensive. So, I want to know specifically what have you done with your rent to try to minimize that cost to the degree that you are comfortable?

Minimizing Rent in California

14:36 Keiland: So, I’m lucky. Obviously, rent is awful in California. That’s just a blanket statement that’s going to be true pretty much wherever you are. But even within that, there’s certainly variability. I’m lucky in the sense that University of California Irvine subsidizes rent, and so you don’t have to live at the university. You could live outside and commute and some people do and it might be a little bit cheaper, but then you have to factor in commuting costs and so on and so forth. But even then, I knew I wanted to live, you know, near campus so I wouldn’t have to drive to campus every day. And even within the housing that UCI offers, there’s variability on the order of, I think on the low end it’s, you know, $500 a month and at the high end it’s like $1,300 a month.

15:28 Keiland: And I chose and requested housing that’s on that lower end. I didn’t get the lowest because, you know, they don’t have very many of those, but, you know, and certainly my apartment isn’t as nice as it could have been, but it’s not that important to me for those years. And so again, the $300 I would save just from that one decision each month adds up to, you know, a few thousand that cushions some of the other things. So, I don’t have to worry as much about, you know, I enjoy eating out. I don’t like to cook as much so I can eat out and not feel as bad about that decision. Or, I can intentionally say, you know, I’m going spend my money on something that I want to do or that actually makes me happy rather than something that, you know, I’m just spending money on kind of mindlessly and doesn’t really bring that big quality of life to me.

16:22 Emily: Yeah, I think, I mean this housing decision is just, it’s so important. You can change it if you’re a renter, you know, it’s difficult but not impossible to change where you live. So, it’s great to get it, you know, as best you can sorted out from the beginning. But it’s again, as you said, for each individual you have to evaluate how much joy am I going to get from living in this type of apartment versus this type of apartment. And to me as well, like I need to, you know, I want to have a place to live, but it doesn’t have to be the most hospitable or the most fancy or whatever, whatever. And so, I think that sometimes people can get tripped up, maybe setting other people’s expectations on themselves about, oh, I have to live in a nice place because that’s what my parents think or whatever. Whereas if they really evaluated it, maybe they could go a little lower on the cost spectrum and still be just as happy. And as you said, then the money is available to divert to something else that does bring them more value and does bring them more joy. Like you said, you don’t want to sweat the small stuff, so you’re going to focus on those big items. Are there any other big items that you want to mention? Aside from rent?

Another Big-Ticket Item: Car

17:26 Keiland: Car is certainly a big one. You know, buying a new car off the lot versus a used car. For some people, I’ve met a lot of people where both of those decisions is a no-brainer. It’s like, obviously I’m going to get a new car, why wouldn’t I? Or obviously I’m going to get a used car, why wouldn’t I? Right? So again, it really goes back to what’s your financial situation and really what’s important to you. Is it really that important to you to have that nice of a car? In some cases it might be, and that might be the thing that you really enjoy and really, you know, why you work and make money and what you live for is that thing. And so that’s fine as long as it’s, you know, in my view, intentional. But other things, like for me, I don’t really need that nice of a car and so I can, you know, cut back and use that money I save for other things that do mean more to me.

18:18 Keiland: And so, that’s kind of the intentional decision. And it doesn’t mean that even for the big purchases you can’t do them, or you have to live cheaply. But I, I think the amount of time you spend needs to be proportional. And there’s a famous law in psychology that kind of proves that, the prospect theory that we will fight tooth and nail to spend a coupon on like a $5 hamburger. But for a thousand-dollar car you won’t fight for that $5 savings, even though at the end of the day it’s still $5 in your pocket. So, to to kind of be mindful of these kind of like cognitive biases and really put the effort into the big things. Because you can still have probably the same car for a better price if you just put in a little bit more work to find it and look for it and save.

19:06 Emily: Absolutely. And sort of like what you were saying earlier, if you put in the time and you put in the work to finding that, you know, great housing situations, a great deal, or the car or whatever these other bigger items, as you said it should be proportional to the amount of money that you’re spending on those. Then, again, you don’t have to spend much time fretting about those smaller purchases. So you specifically, do you own a car?

19:27 Keiland: Yeah.

19:27 Emily: Is it paid off? Like what do you want to tell us about your car?

19:29 Keiland: Yeah, I’ve been driving the same car since high school <laugh>, so and I was actually thinking about saving it because it’s awful on gas and the environment, but then the economy and the used car market was terrible. And I honestly don’t drive, like I said, I live very close to campus, so I really don’t drive that much at all. So, you know, personally, I didn’t feel as bad of, you know, just keeping it for a few extra years and then after, you know, the PhD, maybe I’ll look for another one or if I see a really good deal then maybe I’ll consider.

20:03 Emily: Yeah, my family has one car for four of us but we really don’t drive very much, as you just said. Like, we work, my husband and I work from home. I walk my daughter to school, my other daughter we need to drive, but it’s like a two-mile distance. And so, yeah, I don’t know, it just doesn’t add up to much. And we’ve sort of, for the last couple of years since, you know, kind of before the pandemic been thinking, oh, I, you know, at some point we need to upgrade this car, like get more of a family one or whatever. But you know, just not driving that much, I don’t see the way to justify like the expense until it’s absolutely necessary. And that’s kind of our like, attitude about it. And again, if we were spending a ton of time in the car, then it would be a higher value, but it’s really just to get from here to my daughter’s preschool and back. That’s pretty much all it’s being used for.

20:49 Keiland: Yeah, that’s how I see it too. Like if I was commuting an hour a day and I just, every single day for an entire hour I was sitting in my car and I just said, I hate this car, I hate this car, I hate this car. Right? That would be worth it to me to spend a little bit extra money on, you know, something a little bit nicer. Just because I knew, you know, I would much rather have an hour a day where I just don’t hate myself in the car than, you know, this fine car or I’m thinking about something else other than, you know, is my check engine light going to combust at any moment? So yeah, I think it’s those kinds of decisions that are really helpful.

Commercial

21:30 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD Workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success! Now back to the interview.

Increasing Income by Applying for Funding

22:36 Emily: How about some other strategies you’ve used during graduate school? I understand you have increased your income.

22:42 Keiland: Yeah, yeah. In grad school, it’s kind of hard because as you all know well, you can have side hustles, but PhDs are huge time commitments and really demand a lot of your focus and there are also kind of sometimes regulations in your program that prohibit it and so on and so forth. But there are things unique to a PhD that I think have been really useful. So scholarships and grants and those types of ways to increase your income are pretty unique to a PhD and there’s a lot out there. And I know everyone says this and even I really wish I probably one of my biggest regrets in undergrad was not applying to more, because the more I learned it really is just free money. And especially seeing it from the other side, from like sitting on committees that give out grants, they really just want to give money to people.

23:35 Keiland: And so, really just applying to as many as you can and especially the big ones will probably be worth the time. And so for instance, I did the GRFP, which was a huge comfort. Not only just from a little bit of extra income each month, which really wasn’t much compared to my stipend. But also just minimizing risk of, you know, if for instance, my advisor doesn’t have money, I know that I’m funded. Which I think of as probably just as important as increasing your income is just knowing that your income is stable, right? Because that helps you plan, that helps you, you know, make other investment decisions, that makes you, you know, feel a little bit more comfortable when you do other things rather than needing to save. And also, you know, smaller ad hoc grants that you apply for, or travel awards, or these things. Even the small ones, you know, if it’s quick and doesn’t take too much time, if you go back and add them up, they really add up to quite a bit of money. So looking for all those kind of opportunities and not being afraid to like ask for them or ask for help or these things when you need it, I found really, really useful.

24:57 Emily: I like the way that you phrased that. Being able to apply for scholarships and grants and fellowships is a unique thing to the academic experience. Because at face value, if I said something like, how do you increase your income as a graduate student? A lot of people would just dismiss it out of hand. There’s no way. They tell me what my stipend is, that’s it. But they’re just automatically discounting this whole category of an academia-approved way to increase your income, which is just to apply for awards of various types. And you’ll be lauded for doing so if you actually, you know, end up winning them. And so it’s like, yeah, even for people who are prevented by their visa or by policy from working outside of, you know, the PhD program, this is a completely straightforward and great way to at least attempt to increase your income.

25:42 Keiland: You asked earlier about things I’ve tried that work and don’t work. For me personally, I don’t really budget each month. Mostly because I’ve tried things that, you know, I tried to sit down and budget. But I think once you, or at least for me, once I got to the point where I kind of had a feeling of what the things were that I was buying and what the big purchases were, like I said, I didn’t really feel like I needed to budget as much each month. And so usually I’ll sit down maybe once a quarter or even once a year and really kind of get a handle on, you know, like I said, what are the big things I’m buying? What are the little things that are adding up? What are the like subscriptions that I don’t need? And those things to try and like reset myself for the next quarter or next year. But I really don’t sit down month to month anymore and really kind of get on myself.

Experimental Expenditure “Fasting”

26:40 Emily: I think there’s a lot of value in the exercise of budgeting and tracking and so forth, but only to the extent that it helps you actually make decisions or change your behavior. Because if all you’re doing is kind of a, okay, I’m doing a budget exercise, but it makes absolutely no difference to my behavior or how I feel or anything, then it’s pointless. But I like what you’re saying is okay, yeah, you’re not budgeting on like a weekly, monthly basis, but you are using the data that you’ve collected to make decisions going forward. And so, that’s really what you need to get out of budgeting anyway, is the ability to make those decisions. So that sounds perfect. Yeah, any other strategies that you’ve like tried out and decided that they weren’t the best for you?

27:23 Keiland: Yeah, there’s one thing I kind of did in undergrad just as a proof of, so like for instance, I would, you know, live without AC for a few months just to, you know, see what it was like or not AC, heat. I would turn the heat off in the winter for a few nights just to prove to myself that like, you know, before then I was like, I must have heat. I can’t live in a cold environment. And then you see all these things where like, you know, what if I couldn’t afford it? What if I couldn’t use it? What if I couldn’t do it? For no other reason just to one, to prove to myself that if I didn’t have it, I would probably be okay. To a certain extent. It’s nothing extreme or crazy. Or if I, so for instance, I felt like I was buying a bit too much like tea or coffee at the store and just be like, you know what, for this month I’m not going to drink it, and how badly will it really affect my life?

28:24 Keiland: Will I really be that upset if I don’t? That was kind of like the earlier advice that you had heard and it’s like, oh yeah, you need to cut back on everything. And I think it’s useful as an exercise just to get that point too just so you feel comfortable as like, you know what, it’s nice to have and I would love to have it, but it’s not a necessity, to really kind of understand what the necessities are. Because I think, at least for me, there were a lot of things that at one point that I thought were necessities and I thought that I had to have them and I had to spend money on them and I had to do them. And it wasn’t until I forced myself to kind of cut them out for a short period of time and kind of reflect back and see, was it really that bad? And then you realize, no, it really wasn’t that bad. It’s really not as important to me as I thought it was going to be.

29:13 Emily: I really like this point about these experiments to really determine for yourself like what is the line between a necessity and a discretionary expense? Not that it’s bad to spend on discretionary expenses, but just as you said, like, what can I survive without? What can I live without? And what is it really adding to my life to have that expense in my life? So then you can more accurately judge like how much you should be spending on it. I call these little experiments, the way that you’re describing them, fasts.

29:42 Keiland: Yeah.

Quiz Yourself on How Much You Think You’re Spending

29:42 Emily: So like, I know I’m going to go without this thing that I’m accustomed to for this defined period of time and we’re just going to see how it goes. And I fully expect to return to, you know, having it in my life after that point, but we’re just going to see, you know, how I feel about it, and maybe I’ll end up making a different decision later on with that new information. So, it’s not something to be doing all the time on everything, but from time to time yeah, to conduct those kinds of experiments, I think that’s valuable. Anything else you’d like to add about like, tactics that you’ve used during grad school?

30:12 Keiland: Yeah, one thing when I first learned about prospect theory, and that we focus more on the little things than the big things, even though they’re not proportional. I kind of got a little deep into it, and one thing I thought actually ended up being kind of useful was when I was sitting down and trying to budget my finances and what I was spending money on, to kind of take a minute before then and kind of ask myself how much I thought I was spending on these things beforehand. Almost like a quiz or a game, and then you’ll have your answer in black and white once you actually sit down and calculate it.

30:49 Keiland: But for me, I think it was really useful to try and begin to gauge how well do I know my own habits? And how much, you know, if you just like, it’s really hard. I think if you sit down and ask yourself, how much do I spend a year on x? How much do I spend a year on groceries? How much do I spend a year on blank? Even if you budget once a month, it still might not be that automatic before you budget to try and have that kind of handle on it. So really quizzing yourself before, so you know what you need to learn rather than just waiting for that aha moment of, oh wow, I’m spending too much on this. But to really kind of handle that psychology that’s underlying those decisions.

Money Mindset Shifts During Grad School

31:39 Emily: Let’s go a little bit further in this vein and talk about mindset shifts you’ve had. Now, the mindset that you described coming into graduate school, you were very inquisitive, including about finances, learning a lot from a lot of different sources, that’s super valuable. But have you seen any shifts in your mindset during grad school with respect to your finances?

32:00 Keiland: Yeah, I think the big one for me was not being as risk-adverse. So like I said, there are kind of two camps of you should have zero debt at all times, pay everything in cash, have little to no credit, et cetera. And the other camp is, you know, debt can be useful, just be careful or be very strategic about how you use it and you can actually earn more over the long-term. The thing is being like, if you do a big purchase of say like land or a house, it’s probably better to get a mortgage than pay straight up in cash because if you put that cash in, say like stocks for the same amount of time, you’ll make more money over the long-term. Pretty basic, but still there are kind of those two divides. And I really found myself on the other end of that spectrum for a long time of like, I’m going to pay everything in cash.

32:51 Keiland: I really didn’t want a credit card for a long time until I realized very soon that you have to build credit in today’s world. So, in undergrad I ended up finally getting a credit card and using, you know, 10% of the limit per month and so on. But that was, I think a shift is, you know, debt and credit and risk can be useful. You just have to be careful and you really have to, you know, plan and learn and know how you’re using it when you do use it. And if you do then, you know, in the long-term you can probably come out ahead of the super risk-adverse camp. So, that was one and that also helped with like other investments with like Roth RA and stocks and so on. To know that like, you know, like I said, I have a safety net.

33:41 Keiland: I’ve worked hard for this, I lived very below my means for this, but now that I have it, now I can try and, you know, learn what the stock market is, learn, you know, what it feels like to lose money for an extended period of time and have, you know, to discipline not to sell and so on. And to see and just kind of handle that volatility for me was a good exercise one, because I knew at some point most of my assets are gonna be in a 401(k) or retirement account at some point. And so, when I inevitably talk to an advisor, I would love to at least know a little bit about what I’m talking about so I can have those conversations with them. I thought was a tremendously useful exercise and then I like it, so, you know, invest some extra money that way.

34:28 Keiland: But yeah, that was a big shift I think. And also like I said, in undergrad, I was very, very frugal. I’m a lot less frugal. And that was actually hard for me. I know, like it was hard to kind of like let myself spend money. And it wasn’t until I really sat down and said, you know, these are my twenties, despite the fact that, you know, two of them are in COVID. Like, yeah, you have to live below your means and you have to live frugally and you have to save, but at the same time, you don’t want to save a bunch of money when you’re 60 and then look back and be like, what did I spend it on? So like I said, really kind of giving myself the permission to spend on the things that I really think make me happy or really increase my quality of life and those sorts of things. I at least found really useful to kind of justify like, yeah, I can go on vacation or I can spend for this because it’ll be really worth it and it’s not a mindless decision. I’m not just giving money because I want it in that moment. I really, you know, think this thing will be good and it’s worth the amount of money I’ll spend now on it.

Act Your Wage

35:42 Emily: I’m giving a webinar later this afternoon on the day that we’re recording, and one of the slides that I’m going to present exhorts the listener to act your wage. And that partially means being frugal in graduate school. You know, you’re not going to be living on a lot of money, but for you, because you had lived on even less as an undergraduate and you know, you had these really highly ingrained, frugal tendencies, for you and for other people like you, acting your wage also means doing things that you’ve never done before with your finances, like starting to invest, like acquiring credit. And it’s appropriate, right? As long as it’s all in balance with where your salary is at that time and the cost of living and everything. Like, so act your wage can mean a lot of different things to different people depending on where you’re coming from and where you are now.

36:31 Emily: And so, I like that you’ve grown, right? Over these last few years in that sense and your finances because your salary allows you to do those things to spend on vacations from time to time. To start to invest as long as you are careful about your rent and all the other things that we’ve talked about, it’s all in balance for you. And that’s a great place to be during graduate school. A lot of people don’t get there, but I’m really pleased that that you are yeah. Is there anything else that you wanna add like maybe mindset shifts that you would recommend to other graduate students?

37:01 Keiland: Yeah, I think the most important thing is just to think about your money, which, you know, a lot of people might not necessarily do, but you know, if you don’t do it at all, it’s worth, like you said, budgeting and going through and seeing where you spend your money and kind of getting a sense for yourself and learning about yourself. And I know we’re all PhD students, think of it as like a research project, right? There have been times where I’ve sat down and like analyzed my financial data in Python, right? It’s, you know, it’s kind of fun to, to sit down and play with the spreadsheets and add things up. Most of us are nerds here and finance can be a very nerdy topic. So it doesn’t all have to be scary and certainly, all of us are getting PhDs, so we all have the aptitude in one way or another to learn about these topics.

37:47 Keiland: Even though some of them might seem really complex at first, certainly don’t have to be, especially when there are experts like you sitting really close to us that, you know, are an email away or workshop away. So yeah, really, really know yourself, and learn how you spend your money and get a really a good sense for yourself and then ask yourself what your goals are and then if they don’t align, readjust, and if they do align, then don’t adjust. But I think having the comfort and knowledge of knowing your own behavior is probably the most important thing to just know how you spend money and whether or not it will get you where you want to be in the long-term or not.

38:31 Emily: I can definitely understand if some people do not want to go through that exercise, like they expect it to be like unpleasant or something. Like, yeah, it’s not the greatest thing to look at like a small salary as a PhD student and figure out, you know, how you’re managing it and everything, but it, it’s not gonna get better by ignoring it, right? So, really the only way out is like, is through <laugh> through the process of the introspection that you were just talking about so that you can make some better decisions on the other side that’ll help you feel better about your whole life and about your finances too. So, thank you so much for that.

Effective Altruism

39:04 Emily: Is there anything that you want to tell us about your finances now? I mean, I think we’ve gotten, you know, some pieces of the picture. You have some savings in place, you’ve started investing in a Roth IRA. Yeah, would you like to say anything more about sort of where these mindsets and strategies have taken you over the last three years?

39:18 Keiland: I’m lucky to have saved enough for six to 12 months of a safety net, which to me, I kind of think is my foundation. And then another, I try and max out my Roth IRA as much as I can each year. And once I’ve done that, I try and donate some percentage and I also try and invest so hopefully I can hopefully donate more. I’m really interested in kind of this mindset called effective altruism, which a lot of people have talked about. And it’s in a great community and so it’s just, you know, investing in spending your money in such a way that you can quantitatively maximize the impact. And so I do, philosophically, I really like those ideas and the discussions there.

40:04 Emily: There was actually a Stuff You Should Know Episode on Effective Altruism. Just we’re recording this in June, 2022, so it was a few weeks or a couple of months ago. But anyway, I hadn’t heard of the concept before that, but following that episode I ordered a book from some effective altruism organization that sends out free books about it, <laugh>. So, it’s on my reading list, although I haven’t gotten to it yet. So, thanks so much for bringing up that concept. Is there anything else that you want to add?

40:30 Keiland: Yeah, no, yeah, I really like those topics. Particularly because I think, in a lot of ways, that scientists really just want to do the amount of good and don’t really think about money as much. But effective altruism, at least for me, made me think of money in such a way that, you know, it’s the energy to do good. Money doesn’t necessarily have to be evil, right? It’s like how much money is being spent in the NSF or NIH budgets each year. It’s like millions and millions and millions of dollars. So, to think of money as, you know, earning money need not be kind of like a greedy evil thing, as long as you are ethical about it and you’re conscious about it. Because ultimately you can use it to do other good things. So, that was a good way to kind of changed my mindset of how I was thinking about, you know, earning wealth, and so on.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

41:23 Emily: I love that we got there. I love that we got to that motivation by the end of this interview. Let’s conclude with the question that I ask all my interviewees, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we touched on during the episode or it could be something completely new.

41:40 Keiland: I think we tend to to be stuck in our fields and think like, Oh, I’m really good at this, but not this. But the PhD is really just a signature of you’re a really smart person and probably any problem that you’re handed, given enough time, you’ll figure it out. And your finances could just be another problem that’s on your PhD. And no matter how daunting it might seem, I’m sure the beginning of your PhD probably seemed more daunting than that. So, finances need not to be that thing. No matter how weird our taxes are in quarterly payments and you know, do we pay on stipends or not and have to get like a mini degree in accounting to do a, you know, 20-something-year-old’s taxes, it’s fine. At the end of the day, you’ll learn about it and that’ll be useful in the long-term and could even be interesting depending on who you are. So, don’t let it be daunting, and don’t be afraid to ask for help along the way to answer those questions.

42:41 Emily: I don’t think I’ve thought about it or heard it phrased that way before, but I really like your articulation there of like think of your finances as another thing that you can be a student of, and another thing you can learn about during this period of time. And you don’t have to have it right from the beginning. You don’t have to master it from the beginning. It’s a process. And I also like that there’s relatively lower stakes with your finances when you’re earning that lower salary. And that can be kind of the training ground and the proving ground so that when you get to that higher post-PhD salary, then you know the things about, well, does budgeting work for you or not? Maybe you have a different system that’s better for you. And like, yeah, I’m now versed in how to invest in a Roth IRA, so it’s really not going to be too challenging to select the investments inside my 401(k), et cetera, et cetera. So, I love that framing of it. Well, Keiland, this was such a pleasure to talk with you and thank you so much for volunteering to be on the podcast!

43:30 Keiland: Yeah, yeah, thank you. And thanks for all the work you’re doing for PhD students like us trying to navigate it all.

43:36 Emily: You are very welcome. It’s my pleasure.

Outtro

43:43 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.