interview

Combatting Climate Change with Your Finances, Individually and Collectively

March 30, 2020 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Jewel Tomasula, a graduate student at Georgetown University in biology, specifically ecology and evolutionary biology. Jewel participates in climate change collective action through the Sunrise Movement, through 500 Women Scientists, and at her university. Emily and Jewel discuss how people can combat climate change as individuals and collectively through the lens of personal finance, covering frugal and environmental strategies, socially responsible investing, and leveraging our affiliations with universities. You do not need to be a homeowner or in command of massive capital to explore the advice in this episode.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Jewel: I think people are maybe a little quick to discount the power that you have as an individual in these collective action movements and just being a body that’s part of this protest really makes an impression on the people who are making the decisions. People we’ve elected can’t ignore you when you were physically sitting in their office or physically outside the building and you’re part of a mass group of people.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the personal finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five episode thirteen, and today my guest is Jewel Tomasula, a graduate student at Georgetown University in biology, specifically ecology and evolutionary biology. Jewel participates in climate change collective action through the Sunrise Movement, through 500 Women Scientists, and at her university. We discuss how people can combat climate change as individuals and collectively, through the lens of personal finance, covering frugal and environmental strategies, socially responsible investing, and leveraging our affiliations with universities. Listen on for actionable strategies that do not require you to be a homeowner or in command of significant capital. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Jewel Tomasula.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:24 Emily: I am so happy that Jewel Tomasula is joining me on the podcast today. This is a really special one for me because Jewel was the person who worked with me on editing the podcast and creating the show notes in the first three seasons, so really happy to have her back on now as a guest even though she’s moved on from the editor role. And today we are actually talking about kind of one of Jewel’s areas of special interest, which is climate change and climate change collective action. And we will get into how this intersects with personal finance momentarily. But before we do, Jewel, would you please introduce yourself to the audience?

01:50 Jewel: Hi. Thanks Emily. So I am a PhD student at Georgetown University. I’m working on a biology PhD and more specifically my discipline is ecology and evolutionary biology. The ecosystem that I focus on is the salt marshes. And they’re an ecosystem that is really affected by human activities, as well as really important for us adapting to climate change in dealing with sea level rise and salt marshes are important for carbon storage. I look at the resilience of this ecosystem and so I have a very ecology perspective, but I also think about climate change a lot because of the setting of my research.

02:47 Emily: Yeah, that’s perfect. So very strong professional connection as well. What is it that you’re doing outside of your professional capacity in terms of climate change collective action?

02:57 Jewel: I would call myself an active participant in the Sunrise Movement, and also a mobilizer of the 500 Women Scientists network. I wouldn’t say that I’m like a big leader in any sorts, but I’m someone who closely follows along and participates when I can. With the sunrise movement, I participated in a December 2018 action, where we visited out members of Congress and talk to them about supporting a Green New Deal resolution, which hadn’t been formally introduced yet, but it was an initial talking about ramping up climate action and taking on more stringent goals than just the Paris agreement and saying we want a stronger plan for climate action. And then it was a sit in of Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer and McGovern — representatives of the top Democrat offices. That was a really powerful experience, just to be one of hundreds of people that joined together and are taking this action and really showing our representatives that people care about this. And they can’t avoid it when we’re all sitting in the hallway or sitting outside their offices.

04:18 Jewel: I’ve tried to keep up with Sunrise Movement and participate when I can, not that often because I’m doing my PhD work as well. Then with 500 Women Scientists, with other leaders in that organization, we wrote an op ed for Scientific American called “Scientists Must Speak Up for the Green New Deal” and we outlined why scientists should be interested in this resolution and should take it seriously and advocate for it. And then that’s the group that when I go to, and just participating in in strikes or protests, that I usually kind of group up the DC pod of 500 Women Scientists to go together to these actions and support the leaders. And I try to amplify in my offline and online networks what the leaders of the youth climate strikes…their message, and the Sunrise Movement message as well.

05:24 Emily: Yeah, I think you have this interesting crossover identity that you are, identity-wise, compatible with these various friend groups. And it’s nice that you can be an intersection point between them and be, as you were just saying, amplifying messages from one to the other. And back and forth. So that’s great. Thank you for detailing that.

Climate Change and Personal Finance

05:50 Emily: I think that now we’ll get to the point where I want to say a couple of words about why we’re even talking about climate change on a personal finance podcast. Because maybe, you know, you say, well, Emily, this isn’t a good fit. This is about money, why are you talking about this? Or like, Emily, this is too political, why are you covering this topic? You don’t usually cover politics. And that’s not at all my intention, but the reason that I think about climate change in the way that it intersects with my business is because within personal finance and what I do a lot is thinking about the long-term — in my own life and the lives of my clients. When I talk about like investing and the power of common interest, I’m throwing out 50 years as a timeline that we should be looking over to think about our money. And over 50 years, over many decades — as you said, we’re already seeing effects of climate change and certainly over to 2030 and beyond that point, this is something that I think should be factored into our financial plans. As well as whatever motivation you might have to care about this as a human being specifically, it intersects our finances in this longterm planning aspect and also short-term planning.

06:56 Emily: There is this wonderful sort of synergy between frugality and conservation, or environmentalism and minimalism. A lot of the strategies that you might use to reduce your carbon footprint or be more environmentally focused in general are also ones that dovetail really, really well with being frugal in general or being a minimalist in general and not consuming so much. And so I just think whether you’re focusing first on reducing your carbon footprint or focusing first on frugality, you’re going to end up probably doing a lot of things that will benefit both facets, just naturally by the choices that you make. Because, as we’ll go through in a few minutes, there are a lot of things you can do that are good for your wallet and good for the planet. That’s kind of why I wanted to bring this up because there’s just this wonderful overlap. Not only should you be thinking about your own finances and what’s best for you in the long term. Maybe you can also direct your finances and your life choices in a way that’s compatible with being more sustainable long-term, as well. Jewel, can you just start, just make a couple of comments here — what can people do as individuals to reduce their carbon footprint?

08:13 Jewel: I think you outlined that so well about how we have to think about our personal finances in the long-term and that’s good for us, that’s a healthy thing, but if we’re going to be doing that, we also need to be thinking about the state of our environment and how sustainable our economy is as a whole and how that might be changing over the long term. I would hope that our economy is going to look really different in 50 years, that’s what my big hope is. And so this question of the individual carbon footprint and your responsibility there, it really centers on the power you have as a consumer. That’s often what you see in articles. If you can just Google how to go green and you can find lots of options and lots of suggestions, but I feel like they hardly ever take into account what power you actually have as a consumer and your dollar. If you’re someone with a constrained income and you only have a few hundred dollars of discretionary spending every month, if even that, it looks really different than somebody who has a lot of discretionary income, and the power you have with that.

09:33 Emily: Can I just jump in to ask — something I see for example in these how to go green suggestions is make your home more energy efficient. And so I’m thinking, okay, well I’m a renter, I have absolutely no influence over this. When I become a homeowner, I would love to think about that, but it’s not something for me in the here and now. Is that the kind of thing that you’re talking about that people just have differing degrees of influence over their own lives in terms of especially how much discretionary income they really have?

09:58 Jewel: Yeah, exactly. I live in the state of Virginia and there’s essentially a monopoly with Dominion Energy and you don’t have very much choice over where your power comes from. You see a lot of these lists and it’s like install solar panels or make your home energy efficient. And I’m like, I live in an apartment. But it is really empowering to think about, even if you have a constraint income, where you do have power in your budget and your spending and trying to direct that as much as you can towards the way we want the world to look like — a more ethical world with healthier and safer communities. I think part of that is if you are living in an apartment, there’s only so much you can do, but maybe you can live closer to work and you can take out that transportation part of the carbon footprint because you’re walking or you’re taking public transit.

The Impact of Individual’s Choices

10:58 Jewel: With individuals, the big things I think for anyone are your diet and transportation. If there’s ways that you can alter those to have a smaller impact, a smaller footprint, then those are two big things. Meal planning is one that I’ve been engaging with more recently, especially since starting grad school. My partner and I found that that’s also part of frugality and really making a difference in our personal finance wellness. Meal planning makes a difference and also really reduces our food waste. It made a big difference in how much for wasting, not just in food but also in the plastic that comes with food. If you’re not having take out all the time or just getting pre-prepared meals, there’s like a lot of packaging waste that’s produced there.

11:52 Jewel: I guess something that I care about with having that zero waste is that I have really minimized how much I use. That’s kind of in that minimalism that you talked about. Kind of that buy nothing new or going to thrift shops or just holding onto things and repairing them if they break. There’s still clothing alteration shops and shoe repair shops out there and so that’s something that I utilize. Those things aren’t always the most frugal, necessarily. Sometimes it is cheaper to just buy a new pair of shoes, but if I have a pair of shoes that I can get fixed, then that’s more in the mindset. Just because it is just as cheap to get a new pair, they are still a good pair of shoes. Those kinds of things I’ve really built into my budget and I think a lot of PhD’s could think in those terms as well and just rejecting our disposable consumer system that we have. Those are some of like the individual actions I think people could look towards.

13:02 Emily: Let me jump in there because I have a couple of comments about what you just said, which I thought was great. In terms of like the food that you eat, you’re talking about reducing waste, which is awesome. I think I read, years and years ago, I think there’s a book called American Wasteland*, which is about food waste. And I think it said that 50% of food is wasted, like that we grow in America doesn’t get into people’s stomachs. Most of that does not happen in your refrigerator, it happens prior to that point. Again, not something you necessarily have influence on, although I guess we can choose where we source our food from. So maybe getting it more from like local farmers or something rather than conventionally grown agriculture.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

Emily: And also, I guess I’ve been seeing these advertisements for ugly produce and like similar sorts of services like that where it’s food that wouldn’t make it to the grocery store, you can still buy that and eat it because it’s perfectly good. It just doesn’t look pretty enough to be in the grocery store. There’s different sourcing things you can do around that as well, and you were just saying about packaging. That also reduces packaging, all that kind of stuff. You didn’t mentioned what you eat, but I know that one of the major things that you can do is reduce your consumption of meat and dairy, particularly beef. I think beef is one of those big offenders in terms of greenhouse gas emissions. Food selection can also go into that. And it’s really difficult to change your diet, I know that. There’s all kinds of things that influence why you eat what you eat, but to the degree that you’re able to, think about addressing that in terms of less beef, lamb consumption, and dairy.

14:35 Jewel: It’s a really personal thing, that’s something that I’ve experienced. I would say I’ve spent the last 10 years of my life trying to be vegetarian. And it’s a really personal and often a cultural thing too. Food is how you connect with your family often. I get really excited with plant based diets. I have a special spot in my heart for plants and so I think it’s so cool what we can do with plants. I have like a personal excitement about plant based diets and then from the frugal side, meat is often more expensive, especially beef. When we do have beef every now and then, it’s always what’s on sale. If we’re getting it on sale, it’s not really part of the driving demand for beef, in a way.

15:30 Emily: I see what you’re saying.

15:31 Jewel: Right. That’s thinking about what’s the power of your dollar here and having beef is part of it. I have looked into what they say the average American consumption of beef is and it’s a little absurd. It’s not healthy for us as a culture to be eating that much beef, for our own bodies, as well as for our environment. That’s very justified and that’s one of the first things to cede. But if you’re someone really constrained in your income then you’re probably not eating very much meat anyway and I know there are calls for meatless Mondays and stuff. When we do meal planning — and this is me and my partner — my partner is environmentally minded, he still has the attachment to meat and that cultural element that we’re kind of working through.

Jewel: I’ll just be honest there, I’m the one that pushes more for plant-based foods and he’s still like, “Oh, but the meat, it tastes good. And it’s part of how I know how to cook.” That’s just the expectation that your plate has like a meat and then a veggie and a potato. It’s like a very ingrained American conception. But we’ve been looking at our weekly meal plans and it’s only meat for one meal a day typically and often the meat is a small part of the meal. That is something that has changed as we’ve started being more intentional with our meal planning. If you just think meatless Mondays, that’s three meals out of your week that don’t have mea. I would say for everyone, if you can have two meals a day without meat, that’s kind of a big win right there and you’re probably a lot less than the average American. We definitely do need to change this expectation that every meal should have meat in it.

17:39 Emily: Yeah. And I don’t actually think that’s a historically accurate view of the American diet. But anyway, you’re right in that it is sort of in the cultural zeitgeist. A larger point that I wanted to make about what you were just saying is that, as you were just saying earlier, as a consumer and especially if we’re talking to graduate students and postdocs and people who have a smaller degree of control over their finances and their lives — make the changes that you can and that you’re willing to and do what you can. It’s okay if for the time being you cannot change your diet because of whatever else is going on in your life, or you cannot change where you live to start taking public transit. Maybe you can choose one of these areas to make a big shift in and worry about the other ones later. It’s good like to make even a small change, like you were just saying with meatless Mondays or having two meals a day that are meaningless or whatever. It’s not that you have to become completely vegan or completely vegetarian to make an adjustment from where you are today. It’s just about making some degree of progress in that area. Were there any other individual actions that you wanted to discuss?

Being Mindful with Where You Keep Your Money

18:47 Jewel: Yeah, I have one more that I’ve been exploring recently, but I do want to mention two articles that I’ve found can really be like light bulb awakening for the nuance of this issue. One of them is titled “What We Should Really Do for Climate” by Samuel Miller McDonald and that’s published in The Trouble. The other is “I Work in the Environmental Movement. I Don’t Care If You Rrecycle” by Mary Annaise Hegler.

19:16 Emily: I think actually read that one.

19:17 Jewel: Yeah. And honestly, anything by Mary Hegler is on point. That one’s in Vox. Those are two I think that are really helping to increase awareness and making you understand how constrained this can be and how to feel that individual responsibility but also to channel it and grapple it with it better and understand how income plays in and how we kind of just need the whole system to change. How trapped you can feel, but also what personal empowerment you can find in it. Along those lines, something I’ve been looking at just this summer that kind of just slipped by me before was where my money is actually kept in my bank — who I’m letting have my money while I’m waiting to use it. And also looking into investing and trying not to be a typical like 20-something grad student who just puts off investing.

Jewel: I have been using Wells Fargo just because that’s the bank that my parents set up for me and I never really thought about it. Even when I was learning about how Wells Fargo is funding oil pipelines and doing other shady stuff, I just didn’t think about it and didn’t think about taking my money out of there. That’s something I’ve like just done and I’m transitioning to using a bank called Aspiration. They are an online bank that tries to make themselves an accessible option that’s not using any of the money for fossil fuels or gun manufacturing either. Those are two of their big things and building that social awareness into their whole model. It’s nice to have a bank that’s like thinking about this ethically. They also have sustainable investing options. I have $2,000 in there now, but I put in $1,500 and so over two years — I think it’s a little over $1,500 that I put in, so it’s grown like a few hundred dollars over two years. And you actually get to set your own fee for that. They have what’s called a pay what’s fair fee. I had it set pretty low and so over two years I’ve only paid just under $10 in the fees and you could set it to zero actually, if that’s something you really need to do, just to start trying investing.

21:52 Emily: That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard about that model before. And even Wells Fargo’s actions that you just mentioned — I know that they’re sort of blacklisted because of their like consumer protection fails, but I didn’t think before about the way that they’re using just the cash you have with them at any point. I’ll have to take a look at my bank and see how they’re ranking on this metric.

Commercial

22:21 Emily:

Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Socially Responsible Investing

23:24 Emily: Okay, great. So you thought about where your cash is. I know we also wanted to talk a bit about investing, about what’s called socially responsible investing or SRI. This is something that you’re learning about, that I’m learning about right now, so can you start making a couple of comments about that?

23:41 Jewel: My understanding is that there’s a spectrum. Maybe it’s with typical investing group like Fidelity or Vanguard and they just have options that are more socially minded and you can pick those options as well, but it’s still focused on growing your money. And then —

23:59 Emily: Oh, we should say more generally that socially responsible investing is not just about these environmental causes. It could be about like social justice or working conditions or the sort of sin areas, like tobacco and firearms and those kinds of areas. Depending on your exact social preferences, you can make different choices within these groups. But continue, I just wanted to say that SRIs they cover more categories than we’re talking about today. But yeah, go on.

24:31 Jewel: Yeah, kind of this overall ethical minded. Like “Is what I’m investing in doing harm to other people that I’m not necessarily seeing every day? Is there harm or sketchy things being done out in the world with where I’m investing my money?” And that empowerment say, “no, l want my money to be supporting the things that do good in the world and not the things that are doing harm.” And that’s bigger or more encompassing than just environment or carbon emissions. It’s about how the people are treated as well. There’s someone more typical — I guess I don’t know if that’s more typical options, like through Fidelity or Vanguard. They’re big investing options. But then there’s kind of the filter out options since that’s what I have, where it’s still performing pretty well.

Jewel: Through Aspiration, they have these pretty accessible investing options. The deposit you have to make is pretty low, they have where you can set your own fee. I think for someone starting out in investing it’s something accessible, and it’s also passive, like you’re not having to pick out each stock that you want to invest in. It’s a diversified portfolio already, but they do have, I think I was looking at it, Amazon and Facebook are part of their portfolio. Some people might think that those companies are a little sketchy, but then what they do have filtered out are anything with fossil fuels and gun manufacturing and some of these other big sin stocks, as you had mentioned before. And then with socially responsible investing, there is the option to pick out the specifics stocks, but then it’s not passive anymore, and that’s something that I don’t have any experience with and it’s a little like out of my realm at this stage in my life that I would look into.

26:38 Emily: Yeah. Long time listeners definitely know that I teach the strategy of passive investing versus active investing. And so when we’re talking about getting into the socially responsible realm, it is a bit more active, because you’ve decided, you the consumer, and also the person running the fund or whatever, have to look into, okay, it’s not just a strict definition on what are the biggest companies in the US, it’s more like, okay, we have some criteria that we’re evaluating these companies on and some are not going to make the cut. So it’s a little bit more active in that sense, but it can still be a fairly passive approach if you go with a managed fund, because their criteria can be rather fixed.

Emily: And again, they’re not trying to market time and they’re not like picking and choosing necessarily individual companies that are in or out based on whims. It’s all based on sort of an investing plan that’s been laid out in advance. So it can still be a fairly passive strategy, in terms of the important aspects of passive investing, like being well-diversified and not trying to market time and so forth. It’s a little bit more active than like classic passive investing strategies, but still fairly passive overall, or at least it can be. And really I think that it’s so difficult as an individual to do all the research that is necessary to pick individual stocks when you’re trying to evaluate them on these metrics that we’re talking about, that SRIs care about. So I do think it’s a really good idea to go in with a larger fund where there’s a professional, a set of professionals doing that kind of research for you. And as long as you are selective about which fund you go into and make sure that it matches up with your values, then you should be good to go and it’ll be fairly passive on your end.

28:18 Jewel: Yeah, and I’ve been trying to think in terms of like, I really appreciate that Aspiration just has a whole values model behind what they’re doing, as opposed to just being a bank that’s all about the money, no matter who or where is getting hurt, or just what’s good for business.I feel like it’s part of that system change. Let’s have institutions that are actually accountable, and that care about the well-being of communities instead of institutions that are about the bottom line with profit.

28:57 Emily: Before we started recording this episode, I sent you another podcast episode that I had listened to from “How to Money,” which is another great personal finance podcast that I’d definitely recommend. Episode 97, “Socially Responsible Investing” is where they went over this model that I was really learning about for the first time, that there are gradations within social responsible investing. And I think you’ve already covered two of them — what’s called ESG, environmental, social and governance, and then also SRI, socially responsible investing. Those are more about…They’re pretty similar to like your classic like mutual fund where it is largely driven by what’s going to be best in terms of like the profit and bottom line for the investor, with differing degrees of sensitivity towards these social issues that you might care about. And then the final category was impact investing where the goal of impact investing is not necessarily get a great return, although maybe that will happen, but the goal is really to influence the world through with the companies that you invest in. The profit thing is secondary to the mission. Do you do any impact investing at this point?

30:07 Jewel: No. It’s a little out of my realm, as someone who’s at the grad student stage, where I’m just trying to actually invest instead of not investing in. I could bring up here that if you go into the real job that offers the 401k, that’s a great plan and you need to do it, but I am trying to take this time in my life where I don’t have that option, where I don’t have employer match, I don’t have the 401k option and it opens me up to try other investing options. I’m trying to look at it that way, but still with that passive investing, where I can just pick a managed fund and make contributions to it. That impact investing is interesting and I don’t know if I would manage to get there in the future, because you have to really pay attention and do research.

31:06 Emily: Well I think there could still be impact investing funds that you go into. It’s just that they’re going to be composed differently than like the SRI or the ESG types of funds. But I totally agree with you, I think that’s an amazing point that when you have an employer and you’re being provided a 401k or 403b, especially if there’s a match involved, you really do need to use that in terms of your own personal finances. That is the best place for your retirement money to be. But when you have an IRA, either because you don’t currently have access to a 401k, or you haven’t in the past, but any IRA money that you have is completely self-directed. So if you want to invest inside SRIs with your IRA money and do whatever is offered to you through your 401k, that’s a really good balance that you can strike as an individual. And as graduate students, postdocs, we start out probably only having access to an IRA. So the core and the part of your investments that are growing the most over time because you started them the earliest, those are the ones where you can have like the most discretion over where they go. And every time you leave a job, you close out your 401k or 403b, you can roll that money into your IRA and still have that total discretion over how it’s invested. I really love that you made that point.

Collective Action

32:15 Emily: We’ve kind of moved from talking about individual actions and diet and transportation and so forth to now we’re talking about investing, which is something you can do as an individual, but you’re really banding together with other individuals when you go into these funds and you choose SRIs over conventional investments. What are some other things that we can do as individuals but that is joining together with other people for this collective action around climate change?

32:40 Jewel: With collective action, I think the understanding there is that there are some decisions made at the collective level with the idea that they’re accountable to you as an individual. We have voted people in that should be accountable to us as voters or there are people working on behalf of the community that should be accountable to the community members. Whether it’s elected officials or a board of trustees at university or at another institution that you are associated with, those people are making the decisions on behalf of everyone else, but they should be accountable to you and you have power in holding them accountable. That’s where you as an individual have the chance to use your voice and to pay attention.

Jewel: Maybe starting with, since we were talking about investing, there’s also the question with universities and where they have their investments and their endowments. If you’re a PhD, you have an association within a university, whether you’re currently there or you’re an alumni and you have power in influencing how the university is using their money. Especially I think when you’re an alumni, when you can say, I’m not going to donate to you. Or you can contact the university, or be part of a movement. I think people are maybe a little quick to discount the power that you have as an individual in these collective action movements. Just being a body that’s part of this protest really makes an impression on the people who are making the decisions. The people we’ve elected like can’t ignore you when you are physically sitting in their office or physically outside the building and you’re part of like a mass group of people. Paying attention to those and joining anyone you can and just even voicing support and talking about it amongst your coworkers and your family is an important thing. If you have the right to vote, where you are able to use your vote, in the US, paying attention to what kind of plans the candidates have and how firm they are in their belief and voting for those candidates and then not stopping at voting. Actually realizing that you have power as a constituent to go and meet with them and join as a group to go meet with them.

Jewel: I mentioned being part of the Sunrise Movement action in December. That started with us going to our representatives office. I went with a group of people who are Northern Virginians to representative Tom Steyer’s office and we talked with the staff there. Then about a month later we got an email that our representative had changed his attitude towards the green new deal because of what we had come and said to him. You can all see more immediate change and impact just by like stepping up a little and using your voice and being part of movements. But you could also look in your communities and see what kind of like actions are happening there and any time that you can like hold systems accountable or change systems and think about how can your community be more resilient. I think it’s part of that power that is a little under utilized by people in their 20s. It’s definitely growing. And that’s really exciting to me but I think we could use more people. We could always use more people at least paying attention.

36:34 Emily: I like what you brought up there and it goes back to what we said near the beginning of the episode of like you as an individual can be part of groups at different levels. You’re a voter and you have representatives at both the national and also the state and the local levels and you vote for the people that you want to be in office. But then also once they’re in office, you still have influence with them, to some degree, over the decisions that they’re making once in office. They’re still supposed to be representing you. And then not only are you a voter, but you’re also a member of an academic community with your university, maybe multiple different universities. And then you also are a person who lives in your community and like you, you’re using your identity in terms of what age you are, to be affiliated with one movement. And also like you’re a scientist, you’re affiliated with another movement. I think we can all think about the various facets of our identity, and where we live and so forth, and the different groups that intersects with, and to see, as you were just saying, sort of see what’s going on in our own communities at these various levels and start participating as you feel comfortable, or as you see there’s something to participate in to make your voice heard. I really appreciate that. It’s not something I’ve been involved with personally to this point, but I’m definitely now going to be looking for more of those opportunities.

37:50 Jewel: I think just following your representative on social media or signing up for their email is really enlightening and just like a way to see what are they actually saying about these issues or what kind of bills are they introducing? That’s a really simple way that raises your awareness by a lot and shows you the opportunities to go to a town hall or to call them up. That’s one really simple thing.

38:18 Emily: The larger point around a lot of the discussion we’ve had today is you can evaluate where you are now and what you’ve been doing and you don’t have to keep doing the same thing. You don’t have to give into inertia of “well, I’ve always eaten this way” or “I’ve always lived in this place” or “I’ve always kept my money here.” Now that you are aware, if you weren’t already, that these various different areas impact how sustainable your lifestyle is or where you’re putting your money and what it’s doing in the world, now that you have a little bit heightened awareness about that, you can reconsider and make changes where you’re able to.

38:52 Emily: Jewel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. This is a real treat for me.

38:57 Jewel: Yeah. Thank you Emily.

Outtro

38:59 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

Three Financial Strategies Every Early-Career PhD Should Employ (with Kate Mielitz, PhD, AFC)

February 3, 2020 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Kate Mielitz, an assistant professor at Oklahoma State University who holds a PhD in financial planning and is an Accredited Financial Counselor. Kate gives her top three financial tips for early-career PhDs: celebrating financial wins, no matter how small they are; asking questions regarding your pay and benefits; and saving in advance so you can say “yes” to networking opportunities, from a meal or drink with a colleague to conferences. Kate also tells the story of a recent financial challenge she encountered that is highly relatable to anyone in academia. Due to her preparation, what could have easily been a financial disaster became just a hiccup.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Kate: It is okay to make a financial mistake. I want that very, very clear right now. We are human. It is only money. Yes, you heard it from me. It is only money. How do we use it? It’s the tool that we’re using like the hammer or the screwdriver. If you make a mistake, you pick yourself back up, you carry on, you figure it out. What’s the mistake? You ask the questions of yourself and figure out where you went wrong. You figure out where you need help going forward, and you take proactive steps. You’re going to be okay.

Introduction

00:43 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode five and today my guest is Dr. Kate Mielitz, an assistant professor at Oklahoma State University who holds a PhD in financial planning and is an accredited financial counselor. Kate and I discussed the top three financial strategies early career PhDs should employ: celebrating financial wins, no matter how small, asking questions about your pay and benefits, and planning to spend money on networking. Kate also shares her recent and pretty big financial mistake, which will be highly relatable to anyone in academia, and how she weathered it. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Kate Mielitz.

01:34 Emily: I am just delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Kate Mielitz, who is an assistant professor at Oklahoma State University and an accredited financial counselor. So we have an expert on the show with us today, for once. It’s wonderful. Please introduce yourself to the audience. Tell us a little bit more about how you got where you are and what you do.

01:55 Kate: Yes. Thank you so much Emily for having me on. This is a thrill for me. Let me give you the deep background first. I have 20 years combined experience, a bit little more than that, in collections, bankruptcy, fraud, financial counseling and education. I’ve been an accredited financial counselor for a little over 10 years. And the accredited financial counselor can be associated with and compared to the certified financial planning designation. The accredited financial counselor focuses on some of those foundational pieces, like, do you know how to budget? Do you know how to save? Do you have enough insurance? Do you know how to appropriately use credit? Whereas the CFPs look at wealth growth and wealth management. So my area of expertise is helping people get a solid financial foundation that works for them, that’s specific to them and their financial situation. Then I have my PhD in personal financial planning from Kansas State University and I work in the family financial planning program in the department of family development and family science at the Oklahoma State University.

03:06 Emily: Yeah. And again, it’s such a pleasure to have you on today, Kate. So, because you are an accredited financial counselor and a PhD in this area, and again, an expert, I am basically going to turn the reins over to you and let you direct where you want this to go. I asked you to give me your top three financial strategies that early career PhDs should be using. Let’s talk through those.

Financial Strategy #1: Celebrate Financial Wins

03:28 Kate: First, I want you to remember before I give these three strategies that it’s always dangerous to give me this much leeway, Emily, so thank you for that. But remember that no matter what I say, you need to be true to you. So ground this in your financial reality. And when I say for example, with my first strategy, always celebrate the progress forward that you make on your savings goals no matter how small, I mean that quite literally. If that means that for one month to the next, that all you can get in that savings account is an extra penny — celebrate it. It’s the small victories that then help us get into the bigger victories. Do we want to focus on just putting pennies, nickels, and dimes in savings? Not if we can avoid it, but when we are early career, when we are in graduate school and coming into postdoc and coming right up, it’s not always easy. Finding a way to commit to savings and then doing it always celebrating those small successes is so very, very important.

04:29 Emily: Yeah. I’d love for you to elaborate on the point you were just making about how, okay, even if it’s just a penny, it’s still worthwhile. It’s still something to celebrate. Even if the dollar $10 a hundred dollars, whatever scale we are at, it’s worthwhile doing. And can you talk a little bit about the reasoning behind that? Like why it’s worthwhile to save even if it’s just a few dollars? Because some of my audience members, it can only be a few dollars, if anything.

04:53 Kate: I have so been in those shoes. We could go forever on this, Emily. The fact of the matter is, any teeny tiny amount that you can put forward is still a teeny tiny amount that you’ve put forward. I have worked with families who are experiencing homelessness, who are out of work or supporting a family on minimum wage. So I get working with small amounts and the reason that we focus on the small amounts is because those are bite size. How do we eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Therefore we save a penny, a nickel, a dime, a quarter, a few bucks at a time to make that small progress. So then we’re more conscious about it. The more we’re thinking, “Oh, you know what, this is 34 cents that I got back in change — I’m going to put that in my savings account.” And then the next time, “Oh, this is 56 cents, I’m going to put that in my savings account.” Maybe we can’t do it every time, but as we think about these pennies, whether we collect in a change jar or it’s just, “okay, I made progress,” it’s gonna stick in there and we’re going have these little tickle reminders that it’s like, “well, I was successful. I was successful before. I can be successful this month.” And we’re not focusing on, “Oh my God, I only put 20 bucks in savings. I should just give up now.” Never give up! These teeny tiny amounts add up. Americans throw away billions of pennies a year. I mean, it’s mind blowing. So stop and think about what you can put forward.

Kate: One real quick caveat I wanted to share with you, Emily, on this idea. I remember watching an old Family Feud episode and the host asked, “we surveyed a hundred people on the street, what is the smallest dollar amount you would dive back in the trashcan to retrieve?” I was blown away that the number one answer was a $10 bill. I mean, I was like, are you kidding me? I have gone for 26 cents and I’ll do it because to me those small things make a difference. And I mean, whatever happened to the $1 bill and the $5 bill? Those, those are very valuable, as our quarters and dimes and nickels and pennies. So start small, save small, build as you can and you can do it. So celebrate that small progress.

07:11 Emily: Yes. Oh my gosh, I love this point so much. And one thing I wanted to add to what you’re saying is, one of the most valuable things that I think, and this is I think another rephrasing what you’re saying, of it sticks in your head when you start saving, you know, rounding up to the next dollar, whatever it is. I think what most important thing that it does is it changes your self identity to one of “I am a saver.”

07:32 Kate: Oh yeah, absolutely.

07:33 Emily: Doesn’t matter what the amount is. If you become a saver in your own mind, that’s what’s going to create that habit change that carries into the future when the dollar amounts can be bigger. But you have to start with that identity change. And the best way of doing that is to actually enact savings. Even if it is that small amount.

07:52 Kate: You’ve nailed it, Emily. I mean that’s it. It’s really about phrasing it. When you got your first published article, even if you were fourth or fifth author, didn’t you then say, I’m a published author? Well, yeah, the same thing goes. I’m a graduate student, I’m a successful graduate student. Oh my gosh. I’ve landed my first job. I’m a postdoc, I’m an assistant professor. Own these things. And yes, even if it’s pennies, you are a saver. So now let’s keep going. Absolutely.

08:22 Emily: Yeah. And going back to your original point of celebrate — what are some ways that you can celebrate without spending the 34 cents that you just saved?

08:31 Kate: Absolutely. Well, it’s kind of like weight loss. They say never celebrate weight loss by going out to eat. So we’re not going to celebrate saving by spending, but we’re going to maybe, and this is so key, especially for graduate students in early careers, but give ourselves permission to just kick it. Give ourselves permission to sit back and worry about the hustle, not worry about the side hustle, it exists, and just breathe. Whether that means taking an hour for ourselves and watching an extra show, or that means potluck in with a friend. You already have the food in the, in the cabinet. So let’s have somebody over. They bring a piece, you bring a piece. Nobody’s really out of pocket. Talking about it with friends. Call Emily, send her a message, send me a message. Say, “Hey, listen, I did it!” Celebrate those small things. Tell your mom and your dad. Sometimes it’s just a matter of not physically doing something, but just acknowledging it. Looking at yourself in the mirror and say, dude, you saved. That’s empowering and it’s exciting and it is a way celebrate.

09:41 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the word celebration maybe can be boiled down to just acknowledgement in some positive way. It could be as small as that or it can be bigger, if you have the means and the time to do so. But the key is do something that’s out of your routine to acknowledge that you accomplished something because you really did.

10:00 Kate: That’s right.

Financial Strategy #2: Ask Questions About Your Finances

10:01 Emily: Okay, let’s move on to your second strategy.

10:04 Kate: Second strategy: ask questions about money. Now, if you are in graduate school and you don’t have access, for example, to a retirement plan, maybe it’s not human resources that you’re going to. If you’re early career definitely be seeking out human resources to ask questions about your insurance plan or your retirement plan and what those things mean. But don’t ever think that you have a question that is too small or too easy or so-and-so is going to think I’m an idiot if I asked this. Listen, Emily and I would not be doing what we are doing if any question were too basic or too small. That’s how we thrive, right? Emily?

10:46 Emily: Exactly.

10:47 Kate: So if you don’t know who to ask, reach out to Emily, reach out to me. We are more than happy to answer any financial question you have because it is your financial health that you need to be focused on. So what resources? No, we’re not going to rescue. Absolutely not. But we’ll get you a list of resources. We’ll point you in the right direction. Sometimes it’s just as simple as, well does this mean that they’re going to match this and that’s a yes or no. So ask the questions and never be scared that “Oh, I’m a graduate student or I’m a PhD, I should know this.” No, not necessarily. That’s why they give PhDs in personal financial planning because other people don’t know. So that’s what I’ve got mine.

11:29 Emily: Yeah. I’ll say especially for, so obviously anyone who is an employee anywhere, you’re going to have an HR department or an HR person, or something. I say person because my husband works for a startup and they do not have an HR department, but they have a person, part of whose job is to handle this kind of thing. So there is someone, if you are an employee, who you can ask questions about the benefits that you’re receiving or even something as simple as, and this is a big question that we’ll get into later, “Hey, when’s my next paycheck coming? What amount is it going to be in?” Those, those are not even trivial questions for, let’s say a graduate student or a postdoc who’s changing how they’re being paid from this system to this system, et cetera. Things can fall through the cracks. It is very worthwhile to keep on top of these questions.

Emily: If it’s not an HR person who’s available to you, go to someone in your department, like the administrative assistant for the graduate program that you’re in or there is someone there. Even if they can’t help you with the question directly, they’re going to be able to point you to the next step. Definitely keep asking questions at your institution until you get the answers that you need around your benefits. And like Kate was just saying, you can go to outside people like me and like her if you have non institution specific questions. One I get all the time is “am I eligible to contribute to an IRA?” I can answer that question for you if you give me a few details about you know, how you’re being paid.

Financial Strategy #3: Plan to Spend on Networking

12:47 Emily: Now, what’s the third third strategy?

12:49 Kate: The third strategy is to plan to spend money networking. We talk a lot about planning to pay our rent. We talk about planning to pay our car payment or our car insurance, but we don’t always talk about planning to spend money socially. And, no, I’m not talking about going and kicking it with the girls or the guys after work, but that can sometimes be a networking tool. But I’m talking about really digging in and you know, once a month, every couple of weeks, having that networking lunch. Who is somebody that you met at an orientation or somebody who your major professor introduced you to, or somebody who you happen to find out via a Google Scholar search has the same area of interest as you in research, but it’s across campus in a whole different department. Reach out, invite that person to lunch. You can go splits down the middle, you can pay, you can switch off and pay as you go, but plan to spend that money. Because the old adage is that it’s not what you know, it’s who you know. But truly it’s what you know and who you know, you’ve got to have both pieces in there and that is so insanely true in academia. It’s what you know and who you know.

14:02 Emily: I think it’s really, really smart, as you’re bringing this up, just to acknowledge that first of all, networking is an important part of career development at every single stage. Never think that you’re too early on to start networking. You are a person worthy of knowing and you should introduce yourself to other people. So plan for it at every single stage of your career and just acknowledge in advance that you’re going to have opportunities come your way and you want to be able to say yes to them immediately without being concerned about where’s that money going to come from? You want to be able to accept a lunch invitation when you’re not really sure if you’re going to end up paying or the other person will, or you want to be able to accept taking a few hours drive to another institution to do a meeting. Anything like that, where you might end up being financially are responsible for, you don’t want to have to say no to that because you’re not prepared. So I really love the idea, and tell me what you think about this Kate, of having, so I’m really into targeted savings accounts or sinking funds, so having a sinking fund or target saving account that’s labeled networking and there’s enough money in there for whatever you think might come your way.

15:08 Kate: You know Emily, I was just thinking in my head, “Oh, I want to make sure that I talk about the budget sheet that I use.” Whether you call it budgeting or spending plan or targeted savings. The fact of the matter is you’ve got to have a plan for those dollars and cents and yes, having that emergency savings — I’m going to remind you, emergency savings comes first — but then secondary to that, what else do you need to have that money set aside for. On our budget sheets, I tell people all the time, I tell my students, I tell my clients, I remind co-counselors all the time — it’s not my money, it’s your money. So what is your plan for it? Where do you intend to spend it? And write it down. If I’m going to spend a $500 a month on entertainment, which I don’t do, but if I was going to spend $500 a month on entertainment, as long as my budget is balanced and I have the dollars and cents to do that, I can do it.

15:58 Kate: Now, when we’re talking about planned networking and we’re talking about spending money consciously to do this, I’m not talking 50 bucks a month. I’m talking maybe as little as $20. But like you said, Emily, maybe it’s a few hours drive to another institution. Or maybe we’re talking about a conference. It’s really big in our industry, and so we’ve got to take the time to find the money. Now it can be very difficult to do on small salaries so seeking out what funding is available through my department, what grant funding, what fellowship, what scholarship monies might be available. Ask. Even if you, graduated, you’re in your first position as an assistant professor or you’re a postdoc, don’t think that that precludes you from opportunities to get assistance to travel. Ask. Worst case scenario, the answer is no, we got nothing. Okay. At least you know, and then going forward you can put those dollars and cents away toward that. But I’m still going to say try and keep that $20 in your pocket so that if you get the opportunity to say, “Hey, let’s go grab a Coke” or “let’s go grab, you know, a quick bite to eat and talk this through,” you’ve got it. It’s not always easy to do, so please do not hesitate to ask a qualified professional for help. How do I put this budget together on these teeny tiny little pennies that I am paid? And there are resources available to help you do just that.

17:23 Emily: Absolutely.

Commercial

17:28 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Saving tips for larger networking events

18:38 Emily: One thing I just wanted to follow up on about the conference travel, because now we’re not talking about a $20 lunch, right? We’re talking about potentially thousands of dollars, between fees and travel and the lodging and all of that. So of course, totally want to underline, ask and ask and ask if there’s any money available from the sponsoring organization, from your department, from your university, from anywhere you get funding, outside scholarships you can apply for. There’s many different potential sources of funding for travel awards. That’s something we’ve covered on the podcast in the past. But I want to say that in some fields, the money is less prevalent, right? And so in some fields you may be able to say, “Oh, of course I’ll be able to find funding for that conference.” And maybe you can keep, you know, just a smaller amount of money available for your incidental expenses while you travel. But in some fields you may know, “well, I may get funding once or twice during my PhD, but really I should be attending a conference every year.” Then, it’s a scary thing, but you just need to acknowledge that that is going to come up at some point and start preparing for it.

Emily: Because the thing is, I think what happens with a lot of people with conference travel is that they end up just with a reaction to it. They act retrospectively instead of proactively about it. If you put a conference on a credit card and it’s $2,000, whatever, you’re gonna end up paying that over months or years and with interest and you may as well flip that around and pay it upfront into your savings over months and years and be gaining interest instead of losing interest. You’re going to end up paying for it slowly over time either way, if it has to come out of pocket and you can’t get it paid for, so just do it upfront instead of on the backend and you’ll come out much further ahead financially. I just hate it when I hear about students who have to forego these really wonderful conferences or networking opportunities because they can’t find the funding, they don’t have the money saved. And it can be a real blow to your career potentially. So it’s just something that’s worth building into your budget, as you were just talking about, early on, you know, from the beginning.

20:36 Kate: And let me, if you don’t mind Emily, I’d like to follow up on, on the comment you made with the credit card. Credit cards are amazing tools when used appropriately. We’re not going to use a hammer to put in a screw, we’re not going to use a credit card to finance everything. But if you know that you can utilize some points off that credit card and/or, emphasis on the and, you can pay that off, say for example, six months from now I will have this conference paid off rather than just making the minimum payment, but you can pay twice or three times the minimum payment, even if you can’t front load the conference because you found out about it last minute, or Oh my gosh, I never thought about it this way and I’m coming up on it. Don’t be afraid to use the credit card as a tool, but I just want you to be careful and I want you to be conscious and I don’t want you to think about, “Oh, it’s okay, I’ll carry a minimum balance for the next however long.” No, no, no. Go into it with the forethought to say, “all right, I’m going to pay this off in six to 10 months. This is how I’m going to do it. And at the same time, I’m going to be saving for next year’s conference.” Again, you are not walking this path alone. You have resources. Ask, ask, ask, ask, and you will get answers and you will find help to help you make these decisions and figure out how you’re going to use these dollars.

22:04 Emily: Absolutely. I feel I have to at this point put in a bid for my own services, which I do offer one-on-one money coaching. And so if you, one of the listening audience members, wants to work with me on these kinds of issues around budgeting or around paying off debt or investing for the future or whatever it might be, please contact me and I will be happy to, you know, have a short call with you to talk more about that. You can find more details about that in the show notes. And Kate, I don’t know if you offer individual services at this point or if you are, uh, you know, strictly in your academic role.

22:37 Kate: I do offer services. You can find, contact information for me and other professionals like me at afcpe.org and you can just search, find a counselor. I think it’s either find a financial counselor or find a financial professional in your area. I happen to be in Oklahoma, but there are many of us throughout the country who work specifically with students, graduate students, postdoc, early career, the broke, the wealthy, across the gamut. So we are available afcpe.org.

23:09 Emily: What I love about that AFCP database, and also if you wanted to search for a CFP, similarly, is that the professionals identify themselves by their areas of expertise or types of people that they prefer to work with. And so for example, for me, I’m not an AFC, but I specialize in graduate students, postdocs and early career PhDs. So probably anyone listening, your,within my area of specialty. But let’s say you had a different situation like you are in the military or your spouse is in the military, or you’re dealing with maybe an inheritance due to the death of a parent or you know, there are all these other special situations that might come up that maybe that’s your primary identification, not as a graduate student or postdoc, and maybe in some other area. That’s what I love about these databases that you can really search and find who is looking for…you are someone’s perfect client, right? And you can try to find that person through one of these databases. Thanks for adding that a resource, Kate, and that’ll be in the show notes as well.

How a AFC Deals With Financial Challenges

24:05 Emily: Okay. I think we’re ready to talk about your financial challenge that you have had recently due to your academic position. This will be very relatable to many people in the audience.

24:15 Kate: Okay, so let me lay it out really quick. Miscommunication is what this boils down to. Misunderstanding. Me, even as a financial professional, not asking the right question. Not full information being passed down the pipeline. So I wanted on the board, nobody is at fault here, but if somebody has to take it, it’s probably me. I didn’t ask the right questions, didn’t think about it the right way. But what happened is this: I have a nine month contract and I wanted to get paid over 12 months from the start, but because of when I did my onboarding paperwork, I couldn’t do it, I had to wait until the next spring. Well, the way I understood it was that when I did my 12 month pay, my pay would become effective July 1st, the new fiscal year of this year. Well, I knew that I was going to be out pay for about a month, but it turns out that that’s not what the actual situation was. Yes, they would input the information, but my 12 month pay would not actually start until my next contract started. My next contract starts September 1st, my first pay September 30th. So instead of one month without pay, I’m four months without pay. Ouch. Just to put it mildly.

25:42 Kate: Fortunately, because by nature I am a saver, I am a scrimper, I have very little fun. My husband is just like, “Can we go?” “No, I got to put the money away. No, we can’t. No, don’t ask me again.” I put money aside and my emergency fund will be empty come payday because I’m still pulling from savings with his retirement, his disability money to pay the bills. But come September, we’re back on the horse. And so yeah, the end of September. So I’m eking, I made it, I had enough money set aside. I had, I didn’t even realize it at the time, but with small changes, I had three to four months in the emergency fund. I’m always shooting for six. We had had a lot of fun and relaxation prior so I could have tightened the belt a little bit more. We only made a few small changes. This has been a hiccup for us. Not a, “Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh,” but again, another learning experience.

26:45 Kate: It is okay to make a financial mistake. I want that very, very clear right now. We are human. It is only money. Yes, you heard it from me. It is only money. You set a hundred dollar bill on the table. You get up and walk away. Forget the wind. It’s not going to get up and walk its feet. How do we use it? And so it’s the tool that we’re using, like the hammer or the screwdriver. And so if you make a mistake, you pick yourself back up, you carry on, you figure it out. What’s the mistake? You ask the questions of yourself, you figure out where you went wrong. You figure out where you need help going forward, and you take proactive steps to fix it. You’re going to be okay. We’re okay. I’m going to be rebuilding my emergency savings over the course of the next year, because that’s probably how long it’s going to take to get things back into the groove. But that’s okay. I now have a plan of action and I lived through it. My family lived through it. Nobody starved. This is a good thing.

27:47 Emily: Yeah. I think that this issue that you ran into, again, for the people inside academia, I mean, I hope it hasn’t happened to you, but you probably know someone this has happened to you. They didn’t, as you were saying, didn’t fully understand the contract that they were signing, didn’t fully understand the timeline that the other party was working on. And you end up without — in your case, it wasn’t specifically without summer funding, but that’s how it sort of laid out — but many people will end up without funding for a summer or a semester or something, at some point in their graduate degrees. Hopefully not as a postdoc, although I have known postdocs that that’s happened to, that they go a lapse and pay for some period of time. But this is exactly what an emergency fund is for, right? The primary way you calculate how large an emergency fund should be is if I lost my income for three to six months, how am I going to pay the bills in the meantime? And that is exactly the kind of emergency fund you had so you were able to sustain yourself and your family through that period. But it’s a super, super relatable problem. I’m really glad that you brought this up because hey, if it happens to you as a graduate student, that’s a mistake that Kate made and so you don’t have to feel bad about making that mistake.

29:01 Kate: Don’t feel bad at all!

29:04 Emily: People with PhDs in personal financial planning can make this kind of mistake too. So don’t feel bad about it. But the point is just to the greatest extent possible to prepare in advance for whatever comes your way. It might not be specifically this kind of lapse in income, but at some point you may have a lapse in income for a variety of different reasons. It’s a great reason to have an emergency fund. All kinds of other emergencies might occur and other great reason to have an emergency fund. As we were saying earlier, use that mindset of putting away even the small amounts of money. Start snowballing that account bigger and bigger and bigger, and over time it’ll eventually become a full-fledged emergency fund or whatever it is that you’re working on. Thank you for sharing that story, Kate.

29:44 Kate: Absolutely. And then when you do use it, like I’m in my position, I’m empty or I will be empty in about three days. Start over. And if that means that I’m starting small and I will, because my last paycheck when I was really focusing on building it, I was getting paid over nine months. Now I’m getting paid over 12 months, so my paycheck is going to be smaller. So my contribution to savings is going to be smaller. But that doesn’t mean that I give up. That doesn’t mean that I look at that and say “Oh, I’m never going to make it.” No, I am going to make it. Is there something I can cut out? Like, I don’t need to go downstairs to grab something to eat everyday. I can pack that sandwich, or you know, small things like that. The things that we hear, no matter where we go, here are easy ways to trim your budget. They are true. Not all are applicable, don’t get me wrong, but if it’s a $1.50 for the soda at the vending machine and you’ve got a cold Coke at home, grab it from home, stick it in your backpack and off to work you go. Small, teeny tiny changes will add up. That’s not just in contributions to savings, but also in decreases to your budget. The small make a difference, because gosh darn those pennies add up.

30:54 Emily: Absolutely. One last point that I wanted to make about this story and what you were just saying, is that if you do end up choosing to make some sacrifices to your lifestyle to fund a savings goal. For example, you’re needing to rebuild your emergency savings, it’s going to take a while. You’re going to have to do a few sacrifices in the meantime. Don’t think that that’s going to be forever. Don’t think that just because you have to give up your weekly lunch out, or whatever it is that you are in the meantime, it’s a temporary thing that you need to do to reach this goal. Once you have reached the goal, you can reevaluate. Is that something that I want to continue in that habit that I’ve created? Or is it time to add that spending back in now that I have a little bit more financial security. But don’t have the mindset that just because you make the cut for some period of time, it has to be forever. Things will be different in a few months or a few years and you can reevaluate at that point.

31:47 Kate: And also don’t be afraid to say, I can’t afford to do it this month. It is absolutely empowering to say I can’t afford to do it this month. Maybe that means that you don’t participate. Okay. But if you are honest with yourself and have the courage to say, I can’t afford it, I guarantee you the person you’re talking to is going to understand, because they have been there or maybe they’re there, but they’re hiding behind a credit card or they’re hiding behind borrowed funds. Listen, people, it happens and it happens all the time. So it is okay to say I can’t afford it. And yes, I know that point number three was the plan to spend money networking. Well, plan to bring a Coke and a sandwich from home and go meet on the bench. Go meet at the union and people watch. Go for a walk in network. You don’t have to have $20 every time if it’s not going to work. If it’s not in your budget, it’s not in your budget. But don’t think that the money needs to stand in the way of that networking.

32:48 Emily: Yes, absolutely.

How to Contact Dr. Kate Mielitz

32:49 Emily: Well Kate, this has just been a wonderful interview and I’m so glad to have met you and to be able to introduce my audience to you and you know, let them know a little bit more about what an AFC is and you know, what do you guys do? And so thank you so much for joining me today.

33:03 Kate: Thank you so much. It’s been an absolute thrill to be on today, Emily. I really appreciate it.

33:08 Emily: And where can people find you if they want to follow up about something?

33:11 Kate: People can find me on Twitter, @KateMielitz, and I have a sneaking suspicion Emily that you’ll put that in the comments. You can also find me on Instagram, @KSMielitz , or if you just Google my name Kate Mielitz and Oklahoma State University, it’ll pop right up and give you my university contact information as well.

33:35 Emily: Beautiful, thank you so much.

33:36 Kate: Thank you.

Outtro

33:38 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How This Graduate Student Rejects the Academic Culture of Being Broke

January 27, 2020 by Meryem Ok

In this episode, Emily interviews Hajer Nakua, a rising second-year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of Toronto. Hajer describes how the culture of being “broke” in academia becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for individual graduate students. Hajer and Emily discuss in detail Hajer’s top three strategies for breaking this cycle of brokeness in graduate school and how you can change your money mindset. Hajer identifies the culture of consumerism as the top culprit.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Teaser

00:00 Hajer: You know, if people don’t talk about how they’re spending money and all they talk about is the fact that they’re broke, it’s really easy to be like, “Okay, yeah, sure.” But to be more open with money and not have it very taboo I think will really help spearhead discussions of what does it mean to be in graduate school and have money. Like, how are the best ways to spend my stipend?

Intro

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode four, and today my guest is Hajer Nakua, a rising second-year PhD student in neuroscience at the University of Toronto. Hajer describes how the culture of being broke in academia becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for individual graduate students. We discuss in detail her top three strategies for breaking this cycle of brokeness in graduate school, and how you can change your money mindset. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Hajer Nakua.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:04 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Hajer Nakua, and she is a recently started graduate student. We are recording this in August of 2019 so she’s going into her second year. And we’re going to be discussing today the “culture of broke” inside academia and how to combat that with your own personal finances. So, Hajer, thank you so much for joining me today. And will you please tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

01:28 Hajer: Thank you very much, Emily, for having me. And sure. I just finished my undergrad in Psychology, Neuroscience & Behavior at McMaster University in Ontario. I finished in April 2018, and in September 2018, I started my graduate training at the University of Toronto. It’s technically in the Institute of Medical Science, but my field is specifically neuroscience. And even more specific, I use computational technology. So, things like neuroimaging, brain imaging, MRI, to better understand brain behavior relationships in a population of psychiatric children.

The Culture of “Broke” in Academia

02:07 Emily: Very, very interesting. So, you have been in academia–well, your PhD program, at any rate–for only about a year, but that’s been long enough to start to absorb the culture of being broke. So, would you please start to describe that for me?

02:22 Hajer: Sure. I’ve actually noticed this culture very, very persistently in undergrad, and it’s more of a student thing than when you’re a PhD–you’re still considered a student. And it’s just the idea that students, because they don’t have a very stable income, they’re supposed to be broke. And that is a very, very persistent limiting belief that many students have. And I find that particularly in PhD, Masters, or any graduate school program because of the high expense of the program, people just sort of settle into the idea of, “Oh, I’m broke, I’m supposed to be broke.” And it often limits them from taking the necessary measures to try to build wealth even during their PhD or graduate school training.

03:00 Emily: Well, you know you have found a very friendly audience in me with this message. I totally agree with you. To me, like if you’re looking at the numbers, right? Like if you’re actually looking people’s income and outflow and everything, to me, there’s usually a pretty big difference between someone who is paying out of pocket to be in school. They’re probably taking on student loan debt or maybe they’re supported by their families or even maybe they’re drawing on their own savings from the past, and someone who does have their education expenses paid for, plus there’s a stipend on top of that. That to me is like black and white, a very different situation. But you’re right that, because there’s often a continuum between those two things, people who are on the, “Well, you actually do have an income side of that,” can have some of the mindset still from when they were on the other side of the equation. Again, because as you said, the label of “student” is still there. And you said for me a couple of magic words, which were “limiting beliefs,” which I am very interested in. Can you expand on that a little bit?

Can You Expand on Limiting Beliefs?

04:03 Hajer: Sure. So, in general, a limiting belief is this very persistent idea someone has that often allows them to settle into something that prevents them from moving forward with whatever it is that they want in their life. And that’s a very vague and general explanation. But in this case, I find that when people say things such as, “Oh, I’m broke,” they sort of get over the idea that, “Maybe I should have a savings account, maybe I should start, you know, being more financially savvy.” They’re like, “Should I buy this $10 meal? Yeah. Whatever. I’m broke. What another $10?” So, it’s this constant idea that any sort of wealth, any money management is not applicable to their life.”

04:46 Emily: Yeah.

04:46 Hajer: I think that’s very persistent in particularly graduate school. And quickly commenting on one thing that you said. Although there is a stipend, and it’s fair that many people move for a PhD program, so that often goes towards living expenses. So, of course, the amount of money that someone gets, it’s not high, but it’s still, as you said, a little bit surprising to me sometimes that there’s such a strong sense of, “I have no money,” even though technically there is some sort of cash flow coming in.

05:16 Emily: Yeah. And this is another difficult point, right? Because for some people, the stipend is insufficient to live on in that city. It’s tragic that some graduate schools choose to pay their students that way–their workers or their fellowship recipients–that’s something that needs to change kind of about the higher education system as a whole. So, in some cases, it really is true. There’s not enough to live on. You have to be going into debt, whether it’s student loan debt or consumer debt or you’re being supported by someone else. And I think around 50%, or if I’m trying to remember the stats correctly, around 50% or less of doctoral students ultimately do take out some sort of student loans during their graduate degrees, right? Not just from undergrad. Yet, in other cases, as you were just saying, the stipend may be sufficient to live on maybe even sufficient to do a little bit more with.

06:09 Emily: But because of those limiting beliefs, that isn’t even considered, it’s just an assumption. You’re a student, you’re going to be broke, there’s nothing else you can do about it. And like you said, sort of acquiescing to that idea and not acting in a way that could change that situation just because you think that it can’t be changed. Yeah, this is a big part of my message, so I’m really glad that we can have this discussion today. So, what would you say that if someone does accept being broke as a limiting belief, even if it’s not factually numbers-wise necessarily the case–what’s the harm in that? What’s the effect in that?

The Harm of Brokeness as a Limiting Belief

06:48 Hajer: It prevents them from trying to seek opportunities to sort of build any sort of wealth or income. When I say wealth, I don’t mean, you know, those like $1 million wealth. I mean, just sort of being able to work towards your financial freedom, which is a huge goal, particularly in the West as a lot of prices have been getting a lot more expensive. So, it prevents starting that. People often say, “Oh, in my PhD I’m broke so I’m going to stay that way. And then maybe after I’ll sort of think about how I want to think about money or how I want to build my income.” I find that very problematic because PhD is a really pivotal time in your life. So, the vast majority of people start between 22 to 32, in that decade, a lot of students are. And that’s a really key time to sort of build for retirement, or whatever it is, any goals that you may have.

07:40 Hajer: So, starting from an early age, they think, “Oh, that’s it. That’s a problem for later.” Or, “No, I don’t have the money to try to really focus on building financial freedom slowly, slowly, slowly.” It can really be detrimental in their ability to A) save, and also learn how to be good with money when you don’t have a lot of money. Because we’re not saying that PhD students have a great salary, as we’ve spoken about before, but it’s still important to sort of think about ways to be financially savvy at a time where you may not have a lot of wealth. And then as you build on later in life, you’ll get better and better at it. So, I feel like there’s a lot of wasted opportunity during the PhD years once someone succumbs to that limiting belief.

Investing in Yourself: A Cautionary Tale to Grad Students

08:25 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. There are two points in there that I’d like to follow up with. The first is, so at least I have heard, you know, from some aspects of the culture, that your twenties are your time to invest in yourself. Don’t really worry so much about saving for retirement or whatever it might be. There’s time to do that later. Your twenties are your time to invest in yourself. And, if you’ve heard that message, you might think, “Well, yeah, I’m pursuing a PhD. Like that’s a great thing to be doing with my twenties in terms of investing in yourself.” And that’s true. But I do think that maybe the people who are propagating that, “Twenties are the time to invest in yourself” message are assuming that people have a much higher income. That during the course of your 20s, you’re going to be ramping up that income and you know, pursuing all these different opportunities.

09:12 Emily: Maybe you’re starting your own company or whatever it is. That’s a little bit of a different level of potential wealth, you might say, then what we’re talking about in more like the PhD land. Because it is a really difficult thing to start off, let’s say in your twenties, with a certain stipend. And then five, six, seven plus years later still have pretty much that same stipend that’s coming in. It’s very difficult to increase your income at all while you’re in graduate school unless you turn to outside sources of work. So, that’s something that doesn’t really jive for me about that message of like, “Invest in yourself in your 20s.” It’s like, yeah, you can do that, but please note that your income, if you do that through graduate school, is not actually going to be increasing during that time. Or at least not, you know, appreciably.

Investing in Retirement: Slow and Steady Pays Off

09:57 Emily: So, that was one thing that I wanted to point out. And the other one was just, as you were saying, I just wanted to underline the power of starting to invest. Whether that’s, you know, paying off debt or actually investing in stocks or something in your 20s is incredibly valuable because you have so much more time on your side before you reach the goal of, “Okay, I want to support myself in retirement,” or whatever your goal might be. It’s so, so valuable to put away even a very small amount of money early on. The earlier on you can do it, the better because of the magic and the power of compound interest. So, it’s something where like, as you were just saying, if you acquiesce to the idea that you’re going to be broke and you can’t, you know, invest for retirement or pay off your debt or whatever–if you succumb to that idea in your 20s, you might dismiss, “Oh, well, okay, I did have like $20 this month that I could have saved, or like $50. That’s not that much money, whatever. It’s fine.” Actually that is a lot of money once you compound it over multiple decades. So, it’s something where, as you were saying, succumbing to that limiting belief really does damage you in the long-term. If there was something you could have done about it, you know, in the present, which again, for some people it isn’t, but for others perhaps you could.

Investing in Yourself vs. Your Future ≠ Mutually Exclusive

11:16 Hajer: Yeah. And also I wanted to comment on the idea that, “Oh, in your 20s you’re supposed to enjoy yourself and invest in yourself.” And while I agree with that philosophical idea, I think that people often make it very mutually exclusive where there is being financially savvy and then there’s enjoying spending on yourself and investing in yourself and quote unquote self-care and all that kind of stuff. So, I think the message which is driven by consumerism teaches people that, “Oh, you don’t need to think about the future now. You don’t need to be financially savvy now. It’s just spend whatever you want to spend.” And if you have that limiting belief that you’re broke, it’s a very easy message to take in. And it also sort of fills that cognitive dissonance that anyone may have. However, again, I don’t think it’s mutually exclusive.

12:02 Hajer: I think that you can equally–if you’re able to support yourself and your stipend is sufficient–I do genuinely think that you can enjoy yourself and invest in yourself, whether it is with consumerism goods or other self-care habits, and also plan for the future and try to be more financially savvy. And it doesn’t need to be as complicated as investing, but like you said, it could just be having an emergency account that you know that every month a hundred dollars is going to be put in the savings account. I definitely think that in many cases, you can do both. And I think life is very enjoyable when you do both because you know that you’re enjoying the present, but you also know that you are planning for the future, and I think that there’s a lot of sort of warmth that comes with that on the inside.

12:45 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree with what you’re saying. This is what I found to be the case as well, that I never wanted to completely sacrifice my enjoyment of the present. A part of me enjoying the present was feeling more secure in my finances. And so it wasn’t like it has to be all one way or the other. And again, this is another limiting belief, right? Like, “You can only work on your financial future and then the present is going to be completely sacrificed.” Or, “You can only enjoy the present and then you cannot do anything for the future.” In fact, there usually is a balance between those two things. And why also when we choose to be extreme in one way, do we always choose the extreme of enjoying the present and not the extreme of sacrifice in the present, at least for the vast majority of people? So, yeah, I really enjoyed that part of our discussion. So, okay, let’s say we have a listener who says, “Okay, I’m hearing you. I’m hearing you. What can I do now on my grad student stipend or my postdoc salary?” Or whatever amount of money is coming in. You know, “How can I not be broke anymore? I’ve been telling myself that I have to be broke. Okay. Maybe I don’t have to, but what do I actually do to not be broke anymore?”

How to Exit the Cycle of Broke

13:51 Hajer: Okay. I love this question. I wanted to say more of a philosophical idea and then go towards practical tips. The first thing is to recognize that you’re always accountable for all the money that you use and you spend, because I think that people often–I hear this all the time, “I don’t know where the money goes. It just sort of leaves my bank account, and I just keep tapping. I have no idea what I’m buying.” So, I think when you’re at that level, you really need to step back and think, “Where is my money going?” If you’re a Tapper, if you’re just like, “I can tap my way through life,” you really need to sit back and think, “Well, what am I actually tapping on? How do I stop these habits?”

14:29 Hajer: So, I think that’s the first important step to acknowledge self-accountability in your spending and financial habits and your financial future. That’s number one. Number two, I think saving money can be a lot easier than people expect. And oftentimes when you go to YouTube or you read these blogs, they have these very complex budgets and you know, all these things are very meticulous and they understand that as a graduate student, a lot of our time is spent on project management, making sure that we’re sort of completing every stage of the project. So, you don’t want to add so much more to your plate that you’re being super meticulous. So some habits that I started off with is A) have an automatic transfer from a checking account to a savings account. So, I will check how much money would I need to save per month for whatever it is that I want. Maybe I’m saving up for a vacation, saving up for a car, whatever it is that you want to do. Calculate your monthly budget and then just transfer that so it’s on autopilot. You never have to think about it. And whatever’s left in your checking account, you can just spend. And that way it’s a much simpler methodology to get the end goal. Which is that, there’s a certain amount allotted for things that you want to do. You’re thinking about the future, but you have enough to enjoy.

You Don’t Have to Budget in Order to Save

15:43 Emily: I want to add to that for a moment because I think this is a really, really good and important point. Because there are some people who as you said, maybe it’s because of busy-ness, but maybe it’s not–some people don’t want to keep a budget. They don’t like to be feeling–even though they’re telling themselves what to do–they don’t like being told what to do with their money at any given time. So, the thing is though is that you don’t have to budget to save, but you can just go ahead as you were just saying and take the step of saving. And as long as you don’t end up overdrawing the amount of money you have left, then Hey, you’ve accomplished the step of saving and you’re trusting yourself to stay within the ultimate confines of the remainder of your money.

16:25 Emily: And you don’t have to silo all that money off into different categories if you don’t want to. If that’s helpful for you, great. But if you’re too busy, you don’t like it, just start saving and you know, adjust–you can live off the rest of it. So that tip, I mean, if that’s the only one anyone gets out of the podcast, that’s a hugely powerful one. I totally agree with you. Automate savings, do it first thing after you get paid. Don’t allow yourself to consider that money part of your general monthly spending, but rather put it first thing towards whatever goal it is that you’re working on, as you said. So, please continue. But I love that first point.

Tip 1: Automated Savings. Tip 2: Check Your Food Expenses

16:57 Hajer: I’m happy that you like it. What really helps me, especially during grad school–because I’m someone who is more on the meticulous end. I like know exactly where everything’s going in all aspects of my life. But I really found that this tip is the best one to start off with because I’m a big believer in gradual changes. So, nobody’s going to go from a reckless spender to a meticulous budgeter in a month because they have this very intense goal. And I think that it’s not practical to think that or to take those steps. So, I think sort of automated savings is the best way to go especially for graduate students. And then further on, as your money increases, you may want to be a little bit more meticulous. My second tip, and I’ve seen this in undergrad and graduate school, people spend an absurd amount of money on food, I’ve learned.

17:43 Hajer: And not grocery shopping. We’re not talking about whole foods, organic apples, we’re just talking about buying food every single day, buying a coffee and a drink with that. So, a lot of people that I know in graduate school spend $20 a day just on their daily food intake, in addition to any grocery shopping that they may do. And I really wanted to bring this up because when you really calculate how much money food takes out of your wallet, it almost would make you cry because it’s just one of those things that you don’t feel it because it’s $15 here, it doesn’t seem like a lot. The next day, $7 here, it doesn’t feel like a lot. So, that’s one thing. If you find that a lot of your money is being spent on to-go food, so food outside of your own home and outside of groceries, I really think the first step in addition to the savings account is tightening that up and trying to just do the grocery shopping and meal-prepping or whatever it is that’s how you want to eat. It’s up to you. So, we’re not talking about from a health perspective, although it helps. But from a money perspective, I really think that’s the first place people need to look at–their food spending habits.

Pay Attention to Repeated Spending Patterns

18:48 Emily: Yeah, of course. I have more to say on this as well because I love this tip as well. So, I actually found myself falling into this when I was in graduate school. So, something that would happen to me–and you can tell me if you relate to this–this is especially in the first couple of years when I was in grad school and I was still in classes and had like homework to do and stuff. So, you know, go to campus, you know, do your classes. I’ve packed my lunch. Okay. I packed my lunch every day, but there were plenty of days when I would sort of, without knowing in advance, I would actually stay late. So, I would stay over the dinner hour and be working on campus in the evenings because, you know, I had like a good study group going for like a couple of my classes.

19:23 Emily: We would meet and kind of talk about the homework and stuff, you know, in the evenings, a couple days a week. Maybe there’s something in the lab that I didn’t get to during the day. I need to get to it a little bit later. But I didn’t want to be hungry, of course. So anyway, I would go and buy convenience food on campus. This would happen, you know, once, twice a week, something like that. Not seemingly a hugely damaging habit. But when I kind of stepped back and evaluated that, I was like, “Okay, this is a pattern. It’s not totally unexpected that I stay into the evenings at least a couple days, you know, on campus.” So it’s not like, “Oh my gosh, this is only happening this one time. It’s a one-time exception.” No, it was an exception that was happening on a regular basis.

20:05 Emily: And so once I realized that that pattern had formed, I was like, “Okay, I need to do more than just pack my lunch. I have to also keep some food that I could eat for dinner at least as a heavy snack or something that’ll tide me over until I actually get home in the little bit later part of the evening.” So, it’s one thing, of course–people have heard the tip, right? To pack your lunch–but I would say just if you see patterns developing where you need to eat on campus and you see yourself turning to convenience foods, just try to acknowledge that that’s happening and take some steps so that it doesn’t catch you by surprise.

Keep a Snack Drawer, and Bring Your Own Tea (or Coffee)

20:38 Hajer: I actually had the exact same experience. I started to develop like a snack drawer. So, there’s a couple of healthy snacks I like, some that I make, some, you know, whatever it may be–maybe it’s like an apple or something for the week–and I keep that there. And that way, whenever I have to stay later–which I try not to do, I am someone who, you know, at 4:00 PM that’s my home time–but of course, like you said, there are times you just can’t control it. So, I know that there is something there and it’s something that I brought. Even if it’s a $3-4 bagel, that still adds up. My biggest thing was I used to really enjoy buying tea outside. I just loved in the morning coming with my tea and it was only $2 and 67 cents from Starbucks at the time.

21:24 Hajer: I memorized it and I always had it ready because I knew exactly how much it was. But over time you realize how much it would cost. And what I started to do is A) bring my own tea and buy a really cute mug. So, I felt good walking in with my tea mug. But sometimes if I didn’t have my mug, I would actually just ask for a cup and hot water and I would bring my tea bag, and I have them on my desk. And that saved a lot of money. But you just don’t feel that because $2.67 doesn’t seem like that much money. So, even something as small as tea, I felt that like, “Oh wow. By the end of the month, I have considerably more money than I did last month.” And it was just one very small change.

21:59 Emily: Yeah, because it’s a daily or an almost daily habit. Making a small change can make a huge difference.

Commercial

22:09 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us, and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation, and don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns, from free articles and videos to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax. That’s P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now, back to the interview.

Changing Your Money Mindset

23:12 Hajer: One thing that has really helped me is–so, there’s multiple aspects of consumerism that we all fall into, and I think it’s very pertinent in grad school just because, “Oh yeah, the whole broke culture.” But it’s a very funny dissonance where we love to talk about how broke we are, but we love to spend money at the same time. So, I find that’s very common. So, in general, in addition to food, other habits that you may have, I think it’s very important to check. So, many of us like to spend a lot of money on fast fashion. And we know that it’s not going to last very long. We just love the idea of going into a fast-fashion store, buying a $40 shirt. Seems like a good idea, but you know, in four months you’re not going to wear that shirt anymore.

23:54 Hajer: So, it’s things like that where you really want to try to look at alternatives where you may have to put in a greater sum in the beginning, but in the long run you’re really going to help your finances. And I think thinking in that way has really helped. So, instead of the idea of instant gratification, “I want a latte right now. I want this shirt right now. I want this meal right now.” Get outside that mindset. And instead think, “Okay, long-term, what do I want? Because when it comes to the food or the clothes or whatever, the idea is, “I want to have a meal that I enjoy.” That’s really the core of what you want. But that can come in many different ways. And many of it you can save a lot of money with.

24:34 Hajer: “I want to buy clothes that I enjoy.” Okay, well, what are better spending habits that you may do so that in the long-term, you know that you’re saving money? So, and just in general, letting go of the need of instant gratification, which to be honest, is very, very hard in our very, very multi-consumerism culture. Many businesses make billions of dollars because of the fact that it’s very hard to let go of instant gratification. But the way that I like to think about it is, the PhD is the biggest test of lack of instant gratification in your entire life. You are never going to get this level of delayed gratification where you work two years and you got one paper. You know, you work four or five years, you finally got your PhD. So, really changing your mindset and saying, you know, “I’m doing this for the long run. Like I know that the PhD is not going to be enjoyable all the time, but at the end I’m going to enjoy it.” Think that same way about money and your finances. And I think that one thing is just so powerful, and it can fuel a lot of change. So, although it’s not as much a practical tip, but I think that’s an important way to redirect or reconceptualize how you view your spending habits.

The Multiple Benefits of Being Future-Focused

25:47 Emily: Yes. Unsurprisingly, I love this point as well. This is actually something that I’ve spoken and written about on a few occasions, but I’ve never heard anybody else bring it up. So, I’m really glad that you did, which is the specific characteristics of a person who is in a PhD program or has completed a PhD program. Some of those characteristics can lend themselves very, very well to financial success. As you were just saying, thinking long-term about your career. “Okay, I’m going to dedicate multiple years to achieving this PhD.” As you were just saying, sometimes the experiments, the research itself, can take a really, really long time, especially at the beginning. You become really persistent. You are dedicated when you are in a PhD program or have accomplished a PhD, and you’re really future-focused.

26:33 Emily: And all those things serve really, really well if you’re able to translate them into the area of your personal finances as well. PhDs are also resourceful. They are creative. They’re all these really positive things. Even just getting admitted into a graduate program means that you have a lot of these characteristics and you will further develop them during the course of the PhD. And so yeah, if you can find a way to apply those in the financial realm as well, I mean you’re going to be a superstar, basically. Just by the characteristics that brought you to the stage of training that you’re already at. So, I really, really totally agree with this point. I think something that you said that people don’t necessarily acknowledge is if they take a step back from the treadmill of consumerism, they might think, “I have to live this way forever. I have to be frugal forever. I have to say no to buying X, Y, Z forever.”

You Don’t Have to Be Rich in Order to Be Frugal

27:27 Emily: But the thing is that if you can take that step back from consumerism for a period of maybe a few years and really get your finances solid underneath you, and really do things like investing in yourself and increasing your income and so forth, you can add–I mean consumerism is kind of a negative word–but you can add mindful spending back in after a period of, you know, stepping back from it, if you just again, have some wherewithal to your finances. So, for example, something that is a common criticism of frugality tips that are disseminated is that you have to already have money to be frugal, right? So, stuff like buying in bulk or like what you were just saying, actually, buying an investment piece of clothing that’s a little bit more money instead of multiple cheaper pieces of clothing that aren’t going to fall apart faster.

28:19 Emily: Well, you do need money upfront to do those things. So, a common criticism of frugality is you have to be rich to be frugal, right? It kind of doesn’t make sense. But the thing is that it doesn’t take that long of building up some savings or something to have enough money to start taking those frugal steps that do require an upfront investment, which of course not all of them do. And so, it might be that, “Okay, yeah, I’m just going to go on a spending fast for three months. At the end of the free three months, I will be able to take all these other frugal steps, which will then be able to fund me starting to spend again.” So, it doesn’t have to be a forever sacrifice. It can be a short-term thing that can then sort of catapult you to greater and greater ability to build your wealth. Does that make sense?

Inching Toward Investments: Take Your Time

29:04 Hajer: Totally. And I had a couple of comments on the frugality. Because I used to actually think like that, too. I used to think, “You know, frugality comes from a relative place of privilege.” To be able to think–and even the comment on fast fashion that I brought up, I was listening to a podcast and one of the key women who tried to really vouch for sustainable fashion. She works with a lot of celebrities. She talks about the fact that if you really calculate how much money you are spending on fast fashion, you could easily buy a couple of those things and investment pieces. So, again, it’s the idea–and like you mentioned as a PhD student–you know, really understanding where’s the investment worth being put in. And another really important point that I wanted to say is, I don’t think it’s wise to do all these changes all at once.

29:54 Hajer: To be like, “Okay, that’s it. I’m kind of all out. I’m changing everything I wanted to change.” There are of course going be habits that trickle in and that’s totally fine. But it’s again thinking that you’re responsible for your wealth, your financial management. So, what are the steps that you think you can do? And then start from there and slowly build in. So, you know, if you want to be a little bit more frugal or you want to go on a spending fast, but you want to make sure that you have some money initially just in case, then make that your priority and you’ll sort of focus on that. So, these are all gradual tips that require time to sort of get back on your feet of comfort with your money and comfort with your finances, but it’s important just to start somewhere and then, you know, build from there.

30:41 Emily: Yeah, I think that the idea that you have to revolutionize everything in your life at once to be successful with money is another one of those limiting beliefs that isn’t true that we tell ourselves as an excuse to getting out of doing anything. So, when I think about my own journey–when I started my business, Personal Finance for PhDs, it was when I finished graduate school and I had already attained a great deal of financial success at that point. And so if you looked at me at the end of graduate school and saw, “Okay, she’s got her stuff together, she’s budgeting, she’s saving, she’s investing, paying off debt, all that stuff.” It’s easy to overlook the seven years between college and when I finished my PhD that it took to get to that point of success. And I did not start off doing everything right out of the gate, right? This is something that I learned very gradually over time, and yet still, by my own definition, obtained a great deal of financial success several years later. So, it’s not that you have to exactly be like me or exactly be like you or exactly be like someone else you hold up as a model, like a financial mentor or something. You don’t have to instantly transform to be that person. It’s okay for it to take years. It will still be effective if you make slow changes. In fact, probably more so because it’s more sustainable.

Personal Finance Really Is “Personal”

31:55 Hajer: Exactly. And also take into consideration your personal situation. So, many PhD students live at home, so of course they don’t have the very high rent to pay. And of course that makes many things easier. Many PhD students are supported by other individuals that help them out. And some PhD students, again, are living in a more difficult financial situation in the sense that they have to pay rent and they’re solely responsible for themselves. So, take in your situation, and really think about what are the actionable steps that I can do, what are the beliefs that are holding me back? How do I change those? And again, it will take years to be really comfortable with the way that you want to spend money, and that’s completely okay. And there’s never the best way to money. There are certain things that some people may think, “Oh, you don’t need to spend on that.” But I personally like to and I’m okay with that. So reaching that place where you’re confident and comfortable in your money spending, it takes many years. But like you said, it’s always worth it. But it’s always important to take in your personal situation and your personal wealth and not try to compare your situation to someone else’s.

33:02 Emily: This is actually one of my favorite things about personal finance, is that it is intensely personal and intensely individual and there is not a cookie-cutter solution that’s going to work for everyone. It’s a challenging thing for me as a personal finance educator, but it’s just something that makes it such a rich field to be in. I want to get back to this question of mindset. Are there any more comments that you want to make about how to break this mindset, this accepting of the culture of being broke?

Encouraging Open Dialogues About Money in Grad School

33:29 Hajer: I think the first thing I want to say, like we mentioned, this culture is very, very persistent. This mindset is very, very hard to stay out of. Like sometimes I find, even though I’m totally against it, I find that I say things about the whole broke culture of being a student. In terms of breaking the mindset, it’s just always important to understand what being broke means and what us casually saying the word means. Many people, as we mentioned, do have some level of finances that they can spend. If you find that you are able to spend money, you’re technically not broke. So, you just think about that, and then take the steps that you want to take to get more financial freedom. And also just, I think it’s really helpful to bring up the conversations around your colleagues, whether that’s in school, your classmates, those in your lab.

34:22 Hajer: I do that often in my lab. It’s quite a big lab. So, we often talk about money and what does it mean to have money in graduate school. And sometimes if someone says, “Oh, you know, graduate students are always broke,” it’s important to sort of chime in and think, “Okay, well why are we broke? How do you break those down? Is it something that we just think in our head?” So, that’s why I think this podcast, I really gravitate towards it. Because it is just trying to have that conversation started. And I think that’s the most effective way to break that down because it’s hard as an individual, even if you got over that, just sort of change the culture around you and it will always creep into your mindset. But just starting the conversation, it doesn’t have to be on a podcast, of course.

35:02 Hajer: Individually, it’s really important to talk to the people around you about money and not make money a very taboo topic. Because I think if people don’t talk about how they’re spending money and all they talked about is the fact that they’re broke, it’s really easy to be like, “Okay, yeah, sure.” But to be more open with money and not have it very taboo I think will really help spearhead discussions of what does it mean to be in graduate school and have money. Like, how are the best ways to spend my stipend?

Call to Action: The Importance of Budget Breakdowns

35:32 Emily: This is one of the reasons why I really love doing the budget breakdown episodes that I have done in the past. In my first season of the podcast, I did 50% of the interviews were budget breakdowns where I think it was all graduate students except I did my own as well. I think it was all graduate students and talking about, “Okay, this is where I live, this is how much I make and this is how I spend it and these are my financial goals.” And it’s something that I’ve continued with the podcast, although not at the 50% frequency, but I just want to point out that I love these local examples, right? These very relatable examples. If someone else from that same institution living in the same city hears that particular podcast, that’s an easy way to start a discussion–not necessarily even with the person who was interviewed, but just someone else like, “Oh my gosh, I heard this thing and that person is spending how much on rent? And that means that they can turn around and do this with their finances. I wonder how I can find a place where I can only spend that much on rent?” Or like, “Wow, they meal prep their food and that means they only–you know.”

36:25 Emily: But it’s really valuable to see those local examples that are very, very relatable to you. Because it’s very easy to dismiss, as we were talking about before, frugal tips or something as something that doesn’t apply to me because I live in X , Y, Z and this is my particular situation. Well, if you end up talking to people who make the same amount of money that you do and live in the same place that you do, it’s a lot more relatable and their strategies are a lot more translatable. And frankly, you’re more likely to hear them if you listen to them. If you hear them from someone who you can identify with in those other factors. So, this is basically just a call for any listeners, please volunteer and submit your budget breakdown. Volunteer for a budget breakdown episode because I love doing those and I’m not really getting that many volunteers for them now, which is why we do a lot of other types of episodes. But anyway, I still love them. They hold a special place in my heart and I think they’re really valuable.

37:11 Hajer: I love them as well. On YouTube, I think Glamour magazine on YouTube has a lot of budget breakdowns, particularly in individuals in very expensive city like New York, San Francisco. And again, it’s really nice sort of think about how someone else spends their money and then you can translate that into thinking about how you spend your money. Another tip is, the first step if you’re going to take one actionable step, especially to break down the whole broke culture, is to really calculate how much money is going in every month, how much money are you spending? And that way you can numerically counteract the idea that, “Oh, you’re broke.” Because if it’s the, “Oh wow. After all the money that I get and after I spend it, I still have $400, like I’m not really a broke.” So, I think it’s really getting in tune with how much you’re spending. But because of the way the culture is right now, not many people are in tune with their spending habits. So, again, falling into that very broke culture. It’s very easy.

Tell Us More About Your Podcast Team

38:07 Emily: So, I understand you are part of a podcast team as well. So, what is that podcast and how can people find it? What is it about?

38:15 Hajer: So, it’s called Raw Talk Podcast, and essentially it’s a science communication podcast headed by students in the Institute of Medical Science at the University of Toronto. And essentially what the team tries to do is take these really key topics that people are interested in and go to scientists and ask them about their research and the latest discoveries of those topics. So, we’ve covered a wide array of topics such as autism spectrum disorder, the circadian rhythm, mental health in graduate school. And the idea is just to help you know, the general public and everyone understand what is the latest research and how do we best understand some of these topics that are not always well-represented in the media or that people may be curious in. You can find it on Facebook, Instagram, any podcast app, and Twitter and it’s just Raw Talk Podcast. And on Instagram, there’s a lot of new content featuring our guests and some really cool science tips or science fun facts. So, we really just try to break down some of the complex parts of science and be able to translate it using very local researchers that many people can Google and email.

39:31 Emily: This is such a fun way for people to get involved in science communication, I think. I mean I love podcasting obviously, And I just think it’s an amazing medium. And so, this is something that I know has been started. This kind of thing has been started at many other universities as well. And so, I mean if this is something that attracts you about potentially communicating science from your own university and you don’t want to take it all on yourself, it’s a really good idea to get a few other students together who are also interested in the same thing and start it up together and kind of spread the work around. So, that’s exciting. How long has this podcast been going on for?

40:06 Hajer: When the summer finished, which was about April, May, we just finished our third season, so we’re starting our fourth season in September.

How Else Can You Be Reached?

40:18 Emily: Great, great. Okay. And how else can people find you individually?

40:23 Hajer: Sure. So, I recently just started a science communication account myself as a science student and also moreso to share the graduate student experience and experience with research and academia. What does it look like, particularly being from more of an underrepresented group? I really wanted to share what that looks like, navigating academia and research. So, my main platform right now is Instagram, but I do hope to branch out and start blogging. But my Instagram is, @itshajernakua. So, I T S H A J E R N A K U A. And yeah, it’ll be really nice. And I try to share tips of grad school, tips about finding passion with research, and I’m also starting to get more into financial and money tips as a graduate student.

41:08 Emily: That sounds amazing. Okay, well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing this wonderful content.

41:14 Hajer: Thank you so much for having me. This is my first podcast being interviewed, not interviewing. So, this is really exciting.

Outtro

41:20 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhD’s are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode. And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Combat the Negative Financial Attitudes We Learned in Academia and in Childhood

January 20, 2020 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Cortnie Baity, a doctoral candidate in Human Development and Family Sciences at Florida State University and licensed marriage and family therapist intern. Cortnie’s dissertation is on how your upbringing influences your financial attitudes and behaviors later in life and how to effect better financial outcomes, specifically for African American families. Cortnie shares a framework from the literature of four money belief systems, three of which significantly correlate with income and net worth and two of which can become pathological. We discuss the financial messages PhDs absorb from academia and how those might influence financial attitudes and behavior. We conclude with Cortnie’s advice for PhDs who want to combat financial attitudes that don’t serve them well.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Cortnie: I would suggest early career PhDs to take a financial attitude questionnaire and to gain additional insight to see what financial attitudes you resonate with the most and how they could be possibly subconsciously guiding on your financial behaviors and influencing your overall financial well-being.

Introduction

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode three and today my expert guest is Cortnie Baity, a doctoral candidate in human development and family sciences at Florida State University and licensed marriage and family therapist intern. Cortnie’s dissertation is on how your upbringing influences your financial attitudes and behaviors later in life, and how to bring about better financial outcomes, specifically for African American families. We discuss how financial attitudes form and how they translate into behavior. Cortnie shares a framework from the literature of four money belief systems, two of which can become pathological. We discussed the financial messages PhDs absorbed from academia and how those might influence financial attitudes and behavior and what PhDs can do to combat financial attitudes that don’t serve them well. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Cortnie Baity.

Will Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:25 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Cortnie Baity, who is a doctoral student, and she specifically has an interest in financial attitudes and how they develop. This is such a relevant subject for us. I’m so delighted that Cortnie reached out to me and that we’ve been corresponding and she agreed to come on the podcast. So Courtnie, will you please introduce yourself?

01:47 Cortnie: Hello, Dr. Roberts and hello listening audience. Again, my name is Cortnie Baity. I am a current doctoral candidate in the human development and family sciences PhD program. I am located at Florida State University. I earned my masters of science degree from the couple and family therapy program at the University of Kentucky, where I initially became interested in personal finances. Just a little bit of background about my areas of research, it includes family finances, personal finances, socialization processes, African American families, and minority mental and physical health disparities. The overall goal of my research program is to minimize any inqualities in mental and physical health, experienced by black families. In the way that I have chosen to go about intervening on health for black families is looking at how personal finances influences or undergirds some of those health disparities that we might be noticing in the literature.

02:52 Emily: That is so interesting. So exciting. Really, really glad that you’re working in that area. Can describe for us for just a couple of minutes, the dissertation that you’re working on, your specific research?

03:04 Cortnie: Yes. So my dissertation studies financial socialization in black American families, and its implications on financial wellbeing for young black adults. My primary hypotheses is that black young black adults experience asset and resource inqualities, in part because they receive minimal or possibly counterproductive training about finances. My goal with my dissertation is to do three things: document diverse types of family, financial socialization experienced by black young adults, explore the consequences of types of family, financial socialization for financial literacy and financial wellbeing, and then lastly, consider gender variation experienced in family and financial socialization and how it may have undesired effects on financial literacy and financial wellbeing. My overall hope for this study is to, in this study and in following research, will be to produce clinical strategies for marriage and family therapists like myself to help black clients improve financial management, which can help reduce asset and resource inequalities among black families. Personal finance has been demonstrated in the literature to be connected to mental and health outcomes, especially unfavorable mental and physical health outcomes. So I’ve chosen to focus my research on personal finance interventions to improve black health overall.

What is Financial Socialization?

04:40 Emily: Yeah, I’m sure the listeners know that this is a subject that I’m intensely interested in — how to improve financial outcomes among our population, the PhD population. And this is so applicable. It’s a great subject for me to learn about as well. You’re using the term family financial socialization. Can you explain that? Can you define that a little bit more? What plays into that?

05:03 Cortnie: Yes. If we think about socialization broadly, there’s a communication component, so it’s the sending and receiving of a social message, but it also includes the implementation and application of that message into the individual’s life. If we put that into context of personal finance, we’re looking at how families socialize their members surrounding personal finances. That includes how the messages and beliefs surrounding personal finances, including budgeting, world perspectives about money, and the economy and that influences an individual’s financial attitudes. There’s also a tie between financial attitudes or your perspective of finances and how that influences your financial behaviors. And then of course your financial behaviors feed into your overall financial well-being.

06:03 Emily: Yeah. So there’s a whole chain there and this is something that is being passed from parents and other family members to children, and it’s being propagated within families, as well as within society more largely. Can you give some concrete examples of maybe those communications or demonstrated behaviors?

06:23 Cortnie: Sure. One concrete example of a family financial socialization that you may witness in families is, for instance, when families, parents will distribute out an allowance to a child, and they say, “Hey, you know, you have this amount of money once it’s gone, if you want to buy things for your hobbies or if you want to buy a video game, that money is gone.” And so it’s socializing the child surrounding finances in the family social context. Some type of message is being transmitted over to that child. The thought behind family financial socialization is that the child not only hears that message from the receiver, but they start to internalize that message and start to make decisions about their environment around them, based on the message from the receiver. And in that case, whether the child internalize the message to save the money and let it stretch a little bit. So don’t kinda spend all your money on the most expensive video game because you know that if you want to go to the movies the next weekend with your friends as well, you won’t have anymore financial means until the next time that you receive an allowance. So that will be one concrete example.

07:47 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for that. That’s definitely an example of an intentional or an overt way that parents would communicate around finances to their children. I don’t know about you, but the family that I grew up in, the signals around finances were implicit. We did not talk very openly about this subject, but I learned a lot from my parents by example. So can you give another example of how that kind of communication would work?

08:11 Cortnie: Oh yes, absolutely. Gudmunson and Danes has a family financial socialization theory and they support the idea that the majority of family financial socialization happens through modeling or observation. So one implicit way that we learn about money is when our parents will take us to the bank with them. There is some type of message that is being sent to us that there are outside institutions that help us to manage our money. That would be one concrete example of family financial socialization. You’re with your parent, it’s in the family social context is not really being spoken we’re at the bank because I need them to help me manage my money, but it’s that kind of unspoken undertone. It’s an institution It’s associated with money. I see mom and dad go here. So those kind of implied messages are occurring in that kind of way.

09:16 Emily: It’s a really, really interesting example. It just reminds me of, well first of all there’s a large unbanked population within the United States, right? So there’s all kinds of children who are not getting that particular kind of message that maybe some other children are. Maybe the actual interaction the parent is having with the teller or the manager could be positive, could be negative. All kinds of differences there. And it’s actually making me think now. So I have two very young children. The older one is maybe on the cusp of being able to learn some money lessons if we were to overtly teach something. But I’m just thinking about how much financial stuff that I do that it just takes place digitally online. It wouldn’t necessarily be seen very easily by my children if I just choose to not do that stuff in front of them. So yeah, I don’t know. Going into the new generation, we might have to have different strategies around how to do the socialization, given the differences.

10:09 Cortnie: Very true, very true.

The Four Financial Attitudes

10:11 Emily: Okay. So that’s about how parents and families are communicating some lessons around finances, implicitly or explicitly. How the children are receiving those attitudes. Can you speak a little bit more about the connection between what you’re learning in your family and the attitudes and so forth that you develop and then how that translates to behavior? What the connection is between those two.

10:33 Cortnie: Personal finance psychology and marriage and family therapist scholars, Klontz and Britt have produced some studies that look at how financial attitudes developed and they suggest that trans-generational personal finance messages, typically learned in childhood, subconsciously influences the development of financial values and beliefs. And collectively these financial values and beliefs are referred to as financial attitudes. So Klontz and Britts specifically have come up with four distinct financial attitudes. One is money avoidance, money worship, money status and also money vigilance. To have these categories are important because some of them suggest a pathologic view of money that can have a negative impact on your financial behaviors in your overall financial well-being.

11:35 Emily: I love to hear a framework. This is great. Can you say a couple of words about what each of those four categories are so people can kind of say, “Oh, I definitely see myself here or there.”

Money Avoidance

11:45 Cortnie: Reiterating when I say a financial attitudes are important because certain attitudes for example, like money avoidance and money worship, have been demonstrated to suggest pathological views of money. Those who resonate with money avoidance attitudes may tend to believe that money is bad or that you don’t deserve money, and for people with this personality, money can typically evoke feelings of fear, anxiety, or disgust even. This is a financial attitude that is common among low income, younger, and single individuals because they typically have something going on with them where money is evoking these anxiety or stressor indicators for them. It has been demonstrated that typically those who are money avoidant produce, financial outcomes like financial well-being that are not as high as individuals who possibly resonate more with other types of financial attitudes.

12:58 Emily: Yeah, I definitely can see that. I mean, we can sort of imagine very easily that prototype person who is money avoidant. There’s probably, I don’t know if they’d be listening to the podcast, but there’s certainly potentially some of those within academia, within graduate students. Maybe not because of how they were raised, but then the environment that they’ve been put in, you know, since getting into training. We’ll talk more about that a bit later, but go through these other three categories please.

Money Worship

13:23 Cortnie: Money worship, more so those types of individuals, you would see indicators of that individual where they’re very central to their career. They’re very central to building wealth and things like that. It can be suggestively pathological. In the Klontz Money Scripts inventory, there is a cutoff score for what is kind of considered as like a clinical concern, a clinical cutoff score. If you go beyond that threshold, you will be considered possibly you need to look into it being an actual issue. Even if you resonate with, and I do want to say it is possible for you to resonate with several categories of financial attitudes. For a lot of people it kind of depends on the context. Like we talked about, being a PhD student. But going back to what I was saying with the, clinical cutoff score, there essentially are four different types of financial attitudes and worship would be another example of that. There’s literature that goes through the exact representations of the four financial attitudes and Klontz and Britt will be the scholars to kind of refer to that information in further detail.

15:05 Emily: Yeah, I would love it if you could send me a link to put in the show notes for that. Yeah. So I think money worship is another one where we can again, sort of maybe imagine a prototype for that. And I think that I, obviously I don’t know about this clinically for myself, but I have been very careful, mentally to not, because I think I have maybe some tendencies where I could fall into that category. Maybe not even tendencies, but just based on what I do, right? I talk a lot about money. I’m very careful to not allow myself to fall into that category.

Money Status and Money Vigilance

15:33 Emily: Can you remind me what the final two were and maybe give some examples? These were maybe more the non pathological categories.

15:41 Cortnie: Money status, it more so resonates with viewing money as a social status for yourself. And then also money vigilance is being careful with money. Those are two that are not as suggestive to pathological views of money.

16:02 Emily: Yeah. Okay. Thanks for that clarification. I’m seeing myself maybe in the vigilance category, for sure, and I hope the audience is starting to get an idea of where they might fall and what possible interventions might be helpful depending on where they are.

Commercial

16:21 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

How Financial Attitudes Can Affect Your Finances

17:25 Emily: Can you give maybe like a concrete example of how let’s say, a money avoidant person, a behavior that might result from that attitude?

17:33 Cortnie: I think that it kind of blends into our follow-up question of how does academia, how does being a graduate student, how does that influence certain financial attitudes. As we all know, being a graduate student is very expensive, yet graduate students often have very little income, unless you’re in a situation where you do have enough fellowships and scholarship funding to carry you throughout your entire program. Also, because graduate students are in the process of becoming experts in their field, they may feel like they do not deserve to get paid very much. Those kinds of experiences typically evoke fear and anxiety surrounding money, which could be suggestive that graduate students tend to have a money avoidant financial attitude. Of course, there are clinical cutoffs for that, as we discussed before, but some of those common experiences and feelings of being a graduate student, surrounding money, may lead to being category categorized as money avoidant.

18:52 Emily: Yeah, I definitely want to talk about for this for another moment, because I think this is going to be such a common experience for many people in our audience. Either that they’re currently in this space, they are currently a graduate student and experiencing some of these forces and attitudes or maybe that is in their past and it’s still something they’re working on because they still have some residual effect, mentally, from that time. I do think there are pervasive messages within academia that your passion should sustain you. You should not care how much money you’re making right now or in the future because you just love your work so much, none of the rest of that matters. It really plays into a larger attitude within academia. And I’m not blaming any person or institution. This is just like a mother culture kind of thing around “Well, you should just go ahead and put your life on hold while you’re in training. Nothing else matters aside from your training. Put your money on hold, put your relationships on hold. Other things in your personal life, your health, mental health, all that stuff is secondary to the all consuming goal of your research getting to a certain level, finishing your dissertation, whatever it is. Super, super unhealthy. Super, super unsustainable. I mean, maybe you can do that for a few months or a year, but for the five, ten, more years you might be in training it’s too tall of an order. And yet this is still the message that we’re all kind of marinating in within academia. Right? And so what I think I’m hearing from you is that these messages, maybe it’s not the family that we grew up in, right? That has a certain influence on us. But then our academic family is also having an influence. Does that make sense? Can you talk a little bit more about that?

20:37 Cortnie: That definitely makes sense because essentially what family financial socialization theory suggests is that our founding beliefs and values surrounding money typically come from the family system because that’s typically our first opportunity to learn in a social context. As you become 18 and you move away from home and you have more interactions with other socialization agents, like being in an academic setting, being around peers, being in a romantic relationship, that influences your personal finances as well, or how you’re being socialized around personal finances as well. It’s certainly a undertone, kind of an unspoken thing in academia that the main goal is to focus on getting your program or research to a certain level, getting through the program and graduating and the personal finance piece is often not really addressed very much, or the stressors that are associated with finances are typically not addressed unless you actually go directly to a personal finance specialist on campus that can help you to continue to fund your program. And not just your program, but your life outside of that. A lot of graduate students have full blown families. They’re married, they have mortgages and all kinds of things like that. So yes, academia can definitely put some stressors on your personal finances and your financial beliefs and kind of make you question “Should I be money avoidant because it gives me so much anxiety or possibly having the opposite effect of making you so money vigilant to the fact that you kind of become OCD about just budgeting down to the dime every single semester so that you can have all your expenses covered.

22:43 Emily: Yeah I think there’s the component of what we sort of implicitly absorb in academia about work being the primary thing. But then there’s what you were just saying, the actual real life in your face stressors – the stressors associated with being academia, not being paid enough for where you’re living, having to pay tuition fees, the budgeting issues. These are all not just in your mind, these are real problems that are happening to students. And I think what I’d also love you to comment about is the influence that these experiences and hearing these messages can have on a young adult, right? We’re just talking about okay, the family is the first place where we start to form these attitudes. But I would imagine that a graduate student in their 20,s maybe straight through college and to graduate school is going to have a different set of experiences than someone who starts later on after working. Maybe they are married, maybe they’ve had just more time to build up what their beliefs are and their attitudes around their own finances. Can you comment about that a little bit?

23:46 Cortnie: So I’m not speaking from my empirical research theoretical standpoint. This is just my own personal perspective. But my belief is that when young adults go straight through graduate school and they don’t really get that real world application personal finance management, they kind of start at a deficit when it comes to personal finances as an early career PhD, or if you’re graduating fresh out of a master’s program or early career master’s degree recipient. You don’t have those opportunities to really grapple and absorb what it means to budget with an income and a salary, especially not at the level that you will be earning outside of a graduate program. Then also maybe not being privy to the realities of the consequences of not having enough personal finance related literacy. Not knowing about how credit works, how student loans may impact credit, how that may later impact your purchasing power when it comes to purchasing a new home or a car. And then of course, it has implications on your romantic relationship. Having to have not so easy conversations with your partner that “Hey, you know, when it comes to my personal finances, I’m kind of behind the curve”, especially if you have a partner who did not take the graduate school route, who did have opportunities to kind of build up their financial literacy through work experiences and budgeting that adults do who do not decide to go straight through graduate school. So yes, absolutely, going to graduate school for us to sit significant amount of years, not participating in the workforce as like a traditional adult would so to speak, definitely can leave a graduate school student at a little bit of a deficit when it comes to managing their personal finances. Unless you’re a business major, typically you do not get that background working knowledge about personal finance management.

How to Work with the Money Attitudes You Have

26:11 Emily: Yeah. This is exactly the space that I’m trying to step into. On that subject, once a person recognizes, “okay, academia is feeding me some toxic messages, it’s giving me all these stressors,” what do you do with that? How is it that you can change financial attitudes. Or maybe it’s from the upbringing as well. Maybe you recognize, “okay, my family was not super healthy around this, can I change my own way I approach these things?” How do you actually do that?

26:39 Cortnie: Me, personally, as I’ve gone throughout my graduate school education, I have become more immersed in the subject area of personal finances, becoming more aware of my own financial attitudes and financial behaviors that do not serve me well, and I go by the saying of try to practice what I preach in my clinical practice. And as a therapist, I suggest to all my clients, the first step of changing an unwanted behavior is to acknowledge that it’s problematic and explore its origins. If you recognize that you’re just taking out way too many loans, it’s just not feeling right to you, kind of explore the fact you’re going against what one of your financial values or beliefs are, which is to keep your loans to a minimum, and explore where the origin of the motivation to do that behavior is coming from. Once you have acknowledged that the behavior is problematic, explored its origins, from there I will suggest seeking out resources to support the desired behavior change. Personally what I did for myself is one, I made personal finances, I was very intentional incorporating that in my area of research. And also, my niche is actually surrounding personal finances, mental health, physical health and family relationships. And so it kind of forced me to get immersed in the personal financial literature, become more financially literate in ways that were supportive of my career, but also in my personal life. So I actually did the accredited financial counseling education requirement through Texas Tech University. I did that program back in this past spring and I learned a wealth about personal finances that not only legitimized myself as a marriage and family therapist, that her niche would be personal finances, but also my research. I will say another huge impact that it had was application into my own personal finances. Recognizing that there’s an issue with the financial attitude or the behaviors that you have become accustomed to in graduate school, exploring what the origins are, like why did you even start doing these behaviors, and then seeking out resources, and there’s a wide variety of ways of doing that, but just becoming more knowledgeable about healthy money management.

29:44 Emily: I can definitely see a parallel in myself to what you’re saying. I didn’t necessarily know that what I was trying to do was changing my attitude so that my behaviors would follow. But I can see, from my upbringing, I grew up with a one one parent who was like a spender and one who was like a saver, and sort of absorbed the spender mindset from one of my parents. And that was something when I finally had my own paycheck coming in, I realized my small stipend cannot support the spender inclinations that I had based on my upbringing. And so that was something that I had to, as you were just saying, recognize, “okay, this is going to put me at some dissonance here.” This desired behavior and the financial realities, I realize, “Okay, well that I learned that from my parent. That doesn’t have to be what I do. That’s just what my parent behaves that way, I can be different.” And as you just said, seeking out more and more resources and support around the positive behavior that I wanted to affect, which was not spending a lot of money whenever I wantet to. And so the resources that I went to at that time were personal finance books, the personal finance blogosphere, which now has morphed into podcasts and blogs and Reddit and all these other wonderful places where you can go for resources. So I really sort of started to see into the lives of people who I could recognize as models of positive financial behaviors and start to, um, enact what they were doing in my own life. And if I would be so bold, I will say that the Personal Finance or PhDs community is one of these places where you can learn some of these positve behaviors, from me and from the guests who I interview and from the articles I have on the site and there’s lots of ways you can get involved. In fact, please, if you’re not yet on my mailing list, get on my mailing list because I’ll be sending this great content your way every week.

31:35 Emily: Cortnie, thanks so much for pointing that out. I think we’re coming to the end of the interview here. If someone wants to follow up with you, maybe they have a question about something you’ve said today or maybe they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I need Cortnie in my life. I need more Cortnie”, how can they get in touch with you?

31:51 Cortnie: For those listeners out there who are interested, I’m always happy to share whatever information I have and chat with you. So, um, I can be best contacted at my email. It’s [email protected]. I am also listed on the Psychology Today website as a psychology today verified marriage and family therapist intern. You can look their website up and then as we’ve discussed previous to actually starting the interview, you’ll leave the actual website in the notes. Then also the agency that I’m currently contracted it as a marriage and family therapist intern, Better Living Solutions in Tallahassee, Florida, and we’ll also leave information for their direct website. Those are two additional mediums to gain contact with me.

32:57 Emily: Yeah, it’s so excellent. All that information will be in the show notes as Cortnie just said.

Final Words of Advice

33:00 Emily: So last question here, Cortnie, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD?

33:07 Cortnie: In the same spirit of the conversation we’ve been having, I would suggest early career PhDs to take a financial attitude questionnaire — one example is the Klontz money script inventory — and to gain additional insight. If you have some inklings but you’re not exactly sure if you’re at that clinical cutoff for certain financial attitudes, to see what financial attitudes you resonate with the most and how they could be possibly subconsciously guiding on your financial behaviors and influencing your overall financial well-being.

33:47 Emily: Perfect. And can we add that link to the show notes as well?

33:49 Cortnie: Absolutely.

33:50 Emily: All right. Perfect. Oh, Cortnie, this is such a wonderful interview. Thank you so much for providing your expertise on this subject.

33:56 Cortnie: Thank you so much for having me Dr. Roberts, I enjoyed talking with you.

Outtro

34:01 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How Winning Fellowships Forced This Grad Student to Take Out Student Loans

January 6, 2020 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Dessie Clark, a doctoral candidate in Community Sustainability at Michigan State University. In 2018, Dessie received a few small fellowships for conference travel and a couple months of stipend income. In 2019, the financial aid office told her she had been “over-awarded” and had to pay the travel fellowship money back. Dessie took out student loans to pay that bill and then set up a payment plan with the IRS when she couldn’t pay the additional tax due on the fellowships. Dessie shares the steps she takes now when receiving fellowships so that she does not become over-awarded and how to prepare for tax time as a fellowship recipient.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Dessie: Outside of academia, people wouldn’t hesitate to ask questions about their paycheck, right? And so we need to kind of be thinking about it the same way. If something was different on your paycheck, you would ask why or what’s going on and how you need to deal with it. So just not being afraid to try and talk to people about what’s going on with you so you don’t get in a bind.

Introduction

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five episode one and today my guest is Dessie Clark, a doctoral candidate and community sustainability at Michigan State University. In 2018, Dessie received several thousand dollars in fellowship income for travel awards and a couple months of stipend income. In 2019, she received a bill from the university for the amount of the travel awards. Apparently, she had become overawarded, a term that was totally new to me., Dessie he took out student loans to pay back the university, and to add insult to injury, faced a higher tax bill that season as well. Dessie relays what she had learned on how to avoid becoming over awarded and her advice for all graduate students receiving stipends. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dessie Clark.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:19 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Dessie Clark, who is a graduate student and is going to be telling us about being awarded fellowships as a graduate student and some of the unexpected downsides that can come with being awarded fellowships, which is of course a wonderful thing, but in Dessie’s case they caused a few other complications. Dessie, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today and will you please tell us a little bit about yourself?

01:45 Dessie: My name is Dessie Clark and I am a doctoral candidate in community sustainability at Michigan State University. I actually got my master’s degree at Vanderbilt University in community development and action. And then I moved to Michigan to finish out my PhD.

02:01 Emily: Great. And how long have you been at Michigan State?

02:04 Dessie: I have been at Michigan State for four years.

02:09 Emily: Okay. So I won’t ask you when you’re finishing, but I’ll just say soon, you’re finishing soon.

02:13 Dessie: Yeah, hopefully this year, maybe next year, maybe, you know, whenever.

Funding During the PhD:

02:16 Emily: Yeah. So can you tell us a bit how your funding has worked since you’ve been doing your PhD?

02:22 Dessie: I’ve mostly been funded as a research assistant, so that provides coverage for tuition and then a stipend to live on. There have been a couple of summers where I’ve taught as an instructor, but for the most part it’s been RAs. And then there have been some brief moments in time where fellowships have also come into play, which is what I wanted to talk about today.

02:43 Emily: Yeah. Please elaborate about that. When did you win fellowships and maybe what amounts were they, those kinds of details?

02:52 Dessie: I think one of the things that’s important is that I didn’t necessarily know that I was getting fellowships. How this came into play for me was I had friends that had gotten fellowships and they had talked about how they were unaware of the tax implications. So I knew when I was going to apply for fellowships or asked for them that there would be tax implications there. But for me, I was actually receiving fellowships in the form of travel awards. So there were multiple times where I applied to go to conferences, and when I was awarded that travel money, I wasn’t aware that they were fellowships. So I’ve won I guess, fellowships of several thousand dollars for travel. Then there was a brief time where, I needed to change labs and so fellowships were used to fund me in my transition.

03:40 Emily: Okay. So definitely for the travel awards, we’re only talking about thousand, few thousand dollars here and there. Seemingly a relatively small amount of money, right? And then when you were switching labs, was it a semester’s worth of funding or how long was that?

03:54 Dessie: It was still relatively small. It was a couple of thousand dollars, but all of these fellowships awards actually happened in the same semester, so by the end it ended up being like $7,000 or $8,000.

04:07 Emily: Oh, okay. When they hit all at once, it really does add up in that case. Okay. So yeah, you didn’t really know that that was what you were receiving. So what happened? You get this money and it’s all good, right?

04:19 Dessie: Right. So I get this money and I’m really excited, I can afford to go to these conferences, I’m able to switch labs. But one of the things that I didn’t know is that they were fellowships, so I was kind of surprised two-fold. The first thing that happened that let me know that something wasn’t going quite right was that — this was in the fall of 2018 — so when I was going to start school in spring 2019, I got a bill from the university that said, “you owe us money, you’ve been over awarded.” I had no idea what that meant, but what I understand now is that every student has a cap on what they’re allowed to receive for education-related expenses. They had decided that this amount of money that I had received for travel had thrown me over that, so I needed to pay back university. That was kind of the first thing I noticed.

Fellowship Cap and Being Over-awarded

05:05 Emily: Let me pause there, because this term over awarded is new to me as well. What are you paying back to the university?

05:16 Dessie: What they were charging me ended up being the sum total of those travel award costs. There’s something that you can do to kind of help with this. Like I said, every student has a cap for how much money they’re allowed to receive, but one of the things that your department can do is they can write a letter saying, “This travel money is necessary for this person’s education. This is advancing their education or contributing in some way and this money is going towards that. It’s nothing extra. It’s not something we can go shopping on. This is money for the students’ education.” I didn’t know that that was something that could be done or needed to be done, so it wasn’t done in my case. I got this bill and it happened to be for the exact amount that I had received for travel awards. I found out through talking to financial aid that basically those things have been passed through as fellowships and because of how they were categorized, I got more money from the university than I was allowed to and so I needed to pay it back.

06:12 Emily: So it sounds like your stipend had been paid by your RA position and this supplemental fellowship, but those were kind of evening out to be what you’re allowed to be paid. And then these travel awards were over and above that and they were like, you’re not allowed to receive this money. This is literally the first time I’ve heard of this. I don’t know if maybe this is unique to your university or your department or maybe in all these cases, other people write these letters, their advisors write these letters that you’re talking about. I’m not sure how that works out, but this is really the first time I’m hearing about this, so it’s definitely raising like some major red flags for me.

06:46 Dessie: Yes. So from my understanding, and this is just what I’ve been told, this kind of cap exists for every student that is at a university, but I don’t know if it’s just how my university chose to handle it, or if this is happening a lot more than people know about, but basically what happened was I was over whatever that cap is. So it became a huge issue because now I’m sitting here before I can start school being told that I was thousands of dollars.

07:15 Emily: Right, exactly. So what did you do?

07:19 Dessie: What I did was what I didn’t want to do, I took out student loans and they subtract it from that.

07:24 Emily: So you took out student loans to pay the university for money that you had won that you used go to conferences. This Is bananas. This situation makes no sense. I’m really glad that you volunteered to come on the podcast to talk about this because the situation I’ve heard in the past for other students is that maybe they have a fellowship coming from the university or maybe they have an RA position or TA, something like that. Then they win a fellowship that’ll pay like their stipend. And a lot of students think, “I am in the money now.” They think getting that fellowship on top of the existing funding for their RA position or whatever it was. That is almost universally not the case. It is possible that you may end up being paid more than you were going to in the first place, but it’s not going to be double what your stipend was to begin with. And so there’s plenty of people who are caught by surprise by “what I just won funding, what do you mean you just take away my other funding?” No, that’s definitely how that works everywhere. There may be some room for negotiation and so forth, but that’s how the standard situation works. But I’m really glad to hear about your situation as well. So you know, now that you have been through the whole thing, what could have been done on your behalf and wasn’t. I don’t know. This is something that I’ve never heard of, of a student having a proactively ask for, so of course you wouldn’t have known, but I guess in the future, anyone listening who receives extra fellowships in some manner, make sure that you’re not going to run into any kind of cap, or whatever exceptions need to be made are going to be made on your behalf. Is that your advice?

Proactive Steps to Avoid Getting Over-awarded

08:54 Dessie: Yes, that is definitely my advice. I think something else too that really ties into this, that I experienced, is I got another fellowship for travel in spring and of course this time I was like, “hi, can you please write this letter and send it to financial aid? “And they were able to do that. But I came upon a situation this summer where there was something the university was going to pay for and they weren’t able to pay for it the way that they want it to. I had gone to my college and I said, I need help figuring out how this thing is going to get paid for, but it can’t be a fellowship because I’m scared I’m going to get over awarded again and I’m going to owe it. My college was really great at hearing that concern and trying to work with me on it, but what ended up happening in the meantime is that the graduate school at my university granted it as a fellowship anyway. One of the things that I think is a kind of a broader issue is that when we’re getting loans or we’re getting grants, we have to accept them and there’s usually some paperwork that we have to go through promising whatever and making sure we fully understand the impacts, but I was awarded a fellowship without my permission basically. I think that the school has figured it out, so that way I won’t be over awarded and this won’t impact me, but I also think that’s why I said at the beginning, it’s really important to know how things are being classified and categorized on your behalf because maybe something is a fix, but then all of a sudden six months down the road you’re being asked to pay it back. I think keeping an eye on that is really important.

10:15 Emily: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you were taking the proactive steps the second time around that you knew to take, and yet, as you just said, they can just push these things through into your student account and there’s no process around it. It’s totally on their end and they have control over it. But I guess, did it just end up being that they just took it back like, “Oh, we gave it to you, now we’re going to take it back and award you the money in some other way?”

10:40 Dessie: They ended up just doing what I was talking about before and doing the right amount of paperwork to explain why this is an educational expense and all of that. I think it was handled because they knew that there were some extra steps that needed to be taken. But I think another thing too is you asked me how I found out about all this. Like so many other students at tax time, it really became a “you owe this money.” I think too, it’s easy for us to just think like, well this was only, you know, $1,000 here or $1,000 there. But it really adds up. And for most graduate students, we’re not in a super comfortable financial place. So even a surprise tax of a couple of hundred dollars can really set you back.

11:20 Emily: Yeah, and sometimes I think it’s easy to forget the academic year and the calendar year don’t line up, right? So you could be receiving fellowships maybe in two different academic years, but if they fall in the same calendar year, then it’s all going to add up at that year-end tax return.

Commercial

11:40 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Tax season is upon us and while no one loves this time of year, it’s particularly difficult for post-bac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows. Even professional tax preparers are often thrown for a loop by our unique tax situation. And don’t get me started on tax software. I provide tons of support at this time of year for PhD trainees preparing their tax returns. From free articles and videos, to paid at-your-own-pace workshops, to live seminars and webinars for universities and research institutes. The best place to go to check out all of this material is pfforphds.com/tax that’s P F F O R P H D dot com slash T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now back to the interview.

Tax Consequences of Being Over-awarded

12:44 Emily: Okay, not only did you, you know — Hey, you received award funding. Awesome. Got that. Oh no, you have to pay it back to the school. Ridiculous. You have to take out student loans, do that. So essentially, with some middlemen, you were just taking out student loans to go to conferences, which is probably not a decision, it sounds like, you would have made, had you known that was going to be outcome. On top of that, travel and research is not a qualified education expense for making fellowships tax free. So you end up with this tax bill on top of all the other stuff that’s happening. How did that play out?

13:19 Dessie: I think one of the things that I knew when I was changing labs is that I knew that a portion of that fellowship money, I knew it was untaxed* and I was gonna need it. So I was able to put that aside. What surprised me is when I sat down with my accountant and she put two and two together, that all these other things had been categorized as fellowships, the amount I had set aside to pay taxes on was not nearly the amount of money that I needed. That was obviously a huge strain. I’m lucky enough that I have a partner who works, but we did end up having to go on a payment plan to the IRS because I just couldn’t afford to come out of pocket the amount that I owed.

[* By ‘untaxed,’ Dessie is referring to the fact that income tax was not withheld for her on this portion of her income, not necessarily that it is tax-free.]

13:57 Emily: At the point when you were working with your tax preparer, at what point in tax season was that? Were you getting ready to file and you found out that, “Oh wait, I’m going to owe more than I had set aside?”

14:08 Dessie: It was right at the end. There was no fixing it. I getting ready to file taxes and she’s like, this is not looking good, and it was what it was at that point.

14:18 Emily: Not all the listeners may know, but some people might hear, maybe from their parents or something, about filing extensions. So they get another, I don’t know, six months or something to file your tax return. You do not get an extension on actually the tax that you owe. You only get the extension on the return. So if you’re finding out in March or April that you owe a tax bill and you’re not prepared to pay it, as you said, graduate students typically live without much margin in their lives. If you find that you owe a tax but you’re not prepared to pay it, really probably the best thing to do is what you did, which is to go on a payment plan with the IRS. A lot of people would say, “Oh my gosh, the IRS, I’m so afraid I don’t want to talk to them. I don’t want to deal with them,” but actually that’s the worst step you can take, is not to talk to them. Did the payment plan work out okay? Did it end up being all right that you could pay a little bit over time?

15:06 Dessie: I’m still on it to this day. I owed a chunk and there’s only so much I could put towards it per month. So yeah, it has worked out. I’m making my payments so I haven’t gotten in trouble with the IRS, but it isn’t a new bill now every month that I have to pay. I think too, just thinking about this calendar year and the implications for next tax season, I think now I’m just very closely watching anything financially that comes through the school just to make sure I don’t get into this situation again. I know now there are ways that your department or your college can help you, and making sure that these expenses are processed the way they should be as true education expenses and not as extra in your life. And just keeping an eye on that. I think especially as I get into the fall, I will definitely be following up with my administrators and saying, “Hey, just want to make sure I see this here. Was there something that went with this to make sure that I’m not getting a bill for being over-awarded again, or I’m not having any more tax implications than I already know I will have.”

Saving Money for Taxes When Your Fellowships Do Not Have Tax Withheld

16:08 Emily: Right. At this point, now that you’re so aware and you’re so proactive about everything, are you filing quarterly estimated tax or does your additional tax due not rise to that level of necessity?

16:22 Dessie: It doesn’t rise to that level, but I am always putting stuff aside. Even when there are things that should be categorized in a way that I won’t have to worry about that, I’m still always just taking a certain percentage and putting it aside, because I think in my situation, the worst case scenario is to have what happened this year and be totally surprised and unprepared, because that’s exactly what happened.

16:42 Emily: Can you tell the listeners a little bit about your system for setting money aside? Because maybe they want to know, mechanically, how you do that.

16:48 Dessie: Yeah. I am not an accountant so I don’t have this down to any kind of science. It’s just kind of what I’ve found has worked for me. So anytime that I get any kind of award through the school, whether it be for travel or whatever else, it could be research money, I always take about 30% of that and I put it in a savings account. And that seems to be kind of a pretty safe estimate of you definitely won’t need to pay more than that, and so I think that’s been my system now. Even when I make requests for money, I always keep that in mind, because I think something that I’ve watched other students go through is they ask for exactly what they need, forgetting about that tax buffer. And so you might end up short or paying back necessary money later.

17:33 Emily: Yeah, good idea. I do think 30% is a very good margin, probably more than you’ll need, but better to be on the safe side than on the sorry side, as you definitely found out. Do you have like a separate savings account that you use for that or something?

17:46 Dessie: Yes, I have a savings account that I just don’t touch. I kind of joke with my partner, that it’s like the savings account that you don’t use as a savings account. There is no level of emergency that could make me touch that money. I pretend it’s not there because for all intents and purposes, it’s not mine. It’s the government’s, and I don’t want to end up in a situation. I mean it’s August, right? And I’m still on a payment plan for this past year’s taxes. I don’t want to have to do that again.

18:12 Emily: Yeah, I do the exact same thing. When I was in graduate school, some years…Well, I guess it wasn’t in graduate school, but it was when I did my postbac, taxes weren’t being withheld. I had to pay quarterly estimated tax at that time. I started doing the exact same thing. I set up a separate savings account, I have it nicknamed tax, put money in there as I get money to come in, withdraw from it as I was paying quarterly estimated tax. But I wanted to say that I do the exact same thing as you, which is that I don’t think about that tax savings account as being my money. Right now, when I’m self employed, I also have the responsibility of paying quarterly estimated tax. And so I actually calculate my, or our family’s net worth every month, on the first of the month, and so I calculate two numbers, which is one my technical net worth, which includes the tax money in it, and then what I label as my true net worth, which subtracts that tax savings account balance out. And I say, “Nope, I don’t even think of it as being mine right now because, as you said, I know I just have to hand it over to the IRS in a few months.” I don’t want to think of it as accessible at all, in the meantime. So yeah, thanks for sharing about that.

Final Words of Advice

19:16 Emily: Is there any other final advice around the situation that you would want to tell someone else so they don’t get into the same kind of problems that you did?

19:24 Dessie: Yeah, just kind of recapping what I said. So I think, of course, the conversation that fellowships are untaxed* is just a broader conversation we need to be having in general because I don’t think a lot of people know that. But again, just monitoring how things are being processed for you and if they’re technically being categorized as a fellowship. Then, I think that for the most part students are pretty safe. I don’t want to create mass panic as far as this cap goes. If you’re just talking about you just have an RA or you know, just the little student loans or you just have a TA. I think where you start to get near this cap is when you’re doing a lot of research awards and travel awards and teaching where it’s on top of what you’re already getting. I think for students that might have multiple things going on, like I clearly had, making sure you’re having a conversation and knowing where that line is so that way you don’t cross it because the way that they balance their books is you’re not going to know until you’re far down the road and the money is already spent. It’s going to be the next semester. So just keeping an eye on that and honestly just reaching out and asking your financial aid office and saying “I know that there’s a certain amount of aid that we’re allowed to get. What is my number?” So you can kind of monitor it yourself because I really think that for most people, you’re better off saying, “No, I’m not going to take that award this semester. No, I’m not going to get this or do this now” and waiting, so you don’t cross that line and end up having the money need to be paid back.

[* By ‘untaxed,’ Dessie is referring to the fact that income tax was not withheld for her on this portion of her income, not necessarily that it is tax-free.]

20:44 Emily: Yeah. Or just be aware, as you were saying earlier, that these letters or whatever can be written so that the money goes on top. So it sounds like, at least your university, your department, it wouldn’t be like, oh, your advisor just wants to pay you more or someone wants to just like give you a fellowship. You’re going to run into problems with that. It has to be something that’s justifiable under their system for raising their cap on an exception basis to allow that award to go through.

21:10 Dessie: Right, and I think too, just noting that the people that work in financial aid may not be as familiar with why research money or why conference money is an educational expense. So things that you might see and go through and you think, “Oh yeah, that’s totally an expense for my education. Anyone would see that?” No, you might have to justify it and they might need, you know, justification from your department on why this is important for your education.

21:32 Emily: Yeah. And I will just add that financial aid professionals and so forth, they’re not going to touch this tax issue with you. They’re going tell you to go away if you try to ask them tax questions. But in the area of how much you’re supposed to be awarded and what the education expenses are, they are the experts in that area. So you can definitely go to them with those kinds of questions. Just don’t ask them, “what’s my tax bill going to be?” They’re not going to answer that. But, yeah, among that subject matter, they are the best people to go to, I think. It sounds like you’ve developed a little bit of a working relationship with those people.

22:04 Emily: Dessie, thank you so much for giving this interview and sharing the story. I think it’s really unfortunate how it worked out and also just that you were saying that you didn’t catch all of this until the following calendar year or the following semester, naturally. That’s how these things work. Of course you wouldn’t, but because it happened so late, it sounds like the proper paperwork couldn’t have been pushed through in the past. I just want to ask the concluding question that I ask of all my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another graduate student or early career PhD?

22:34 Dessie: I think asking questions. I think that early and often you should ask questions about the money that you’re getting, where it’s coming from, how it’s classified, and just always not being afraid to shoot financial aid and message and say “Hey, this has come through. Is there anything I need to do with this?” Because I think everyone, us included, but also the financial aid folks would rather be proactive about dealing with a problem rather than getting the early spring email, which was “what is happening, I can’t pay you a couple of thousand dollars.” I think just always asking questions and not being scared to ask about how these things impact you. Outside of academia, people wouldn’t hesitate to ask questions about their paycheck, right? And so we need to kind of be thinking about the same way. If something was different on your paycheck, you would ask why or what’s going on and how you need to deal with it. So just not being afraid to try and talk to people about what’s going on with you so you don’t get in a bind.

23:28 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. And like you said earlier, you don’t have to accept a fellowship. It can just be pushed through. And likewise for some other people, they might not even really be aware of how they’re being paid. They’re just kind of receiving a paycheck and they don’t really know is it from an assistantship. I mean they would know if they were teaching your class, right? They know if it says teaching assistantship, but is it a fellowship, is it an RA, I don’t know. The roles, like what you actually do for each of those things, are pretty much the same. So you might not even be aware until you get a W2 at tax time or don’t get a W2 at tax time, what happened in the previous year. Then, if any adjustments need to have made, then it’s too late, right? Then the tax year has already ended. So totally want to underline that advice — know why you’re being paid, know what kind of tax forms you’re going to receive.

24:10 Emily: I just want to add in a final note for the listeners, if there’s anyone listening who is receiving a fellowship, even a small award, like what Dessie’s been talking about during this interview, you should look into whether or not you need to file quarterly estimated tax. I’m going to link in the show notes my massive article on quarterly estimated tax. And I also have a workshop on that that’s linked from that article. So I’ll link to both those things in the show notes. Please note that the deadlines for quarterly estimate tax are in mid April, mid June, mid September and mid January of every year, usually the 15th of the month or the business day following. So keep those deadlines in mind. If you are receiving a fellowship, you might not have to pay quarterly, but at least you need to investigate and figure out whether or not it’s your responsibility, or whether like what Dessie’s doing, you can just set the money aside and leave it until the end of the year and pay it all at once with your annual tax return.

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25:01 Emily: Thank you again Dessie for coming on and giving this interview and giving this word of warning to all the other graduate students listening.

25:08 Dessie: Thank you for having me.

Outtro

25:10 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How Effective Presentations Advance Your Career and Improve Your Finances

December 23, 2019 by Lourdes Bobbio

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Echo Rivera, a PhD in community psychology and founder of Creative Research Communications. Echo is an expert in effective presentation, and she teaches these skills to other academics and researchers. Emily and Echo discuss the various ways effective presenting can improve an early-career PhD’s finances, such as through career advancement and networking in person and online. Effective presentation design can even help you feel more confident and move past a fear of public speaking, as it did for Echo.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Echo: Try to invest in yourself as soon as you can. Especially for something like effective communication skills, effective presentation skills, the earlier you can get in on some type of professional development, it’s going to pay off more in the long run.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season 4, episode 19 and today my guest is Dr. Echo Rivera, a PhD in community psychology and expert in effective presentation design. During graduate school, Echo began teaching herself effective presentation design to help her move past her own anxiety around public speaking. Through her business, Creative Research Communications, she teaches academics and researchers how to present effectively. We discuss the various ways effective presenting can improve your career prospects and financial bottom line. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Echo Rivera.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:05 Emily: Joining me on the podcast today is Dr. Echo Rivera, and I’m so pleased to have Echo on. We’ve been in each other’s circles for a number of years now, but this is actually the first time that we’re talking together live. I’m really excited to have a conversation with her about what she does and how it can improve early career PhDEs finances. So Echo, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

01:26 Echo: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

01:29 Emily: Awesome. So please tell us a little bit more about yourself.

01:33 Echo: Yeah, so just real briefly, I have a PhD in community psychology from Michigan State University and immediately after finishing my PhD, I got a job as a research associate at a nonprofit research and evaluation center and that’s in Denver, Colorado. I worked there for three years and then quit so that I could pursue my own business full time. That’s called Creative Research Communications and I’ve been doing that for about one and a half years. That’s the nutshell.

02:09 Emily: So one and a half years full time, but you started this sometime before you left your job?

02:14 Echo: Yeah, it was the side hustle. Something I worked on on the weekends or when I got home after work.

02:20 Emily: Yeah, we talk plenty about side hustling on this podcast. Echo and I met through the self employed PhD community originally, which now is part of Beyond the Professoriate run by Jen Polk and Maren Wood. If any of you are self employed in your side hustle or your full time thing, or interested in that, that’s a great community to join to have more conversations with me and people like Echo and others who are pursuing the same kind of thing, so definitely want to plug that.

More About Creative Research Communications

02:48 Emily: All right. So awesome. You’re now self-employed. Tell us a little bit more about what your business is, like what do you actually do?

02:56 Echo: Yeah, so I help academics and researchers and scientists and basically people in this higher education world, I help them communicate their work more effectively and creatively. So that’s mostly through slide presentations, like PowerPoint, Keynote, Google Slides, stuff like that, because it’s just a great place to start for a lot of people, but it also includes things like comics and infographics and visual abstracts and just things that are beyond a standard conference presentation or publication. Today I’ll be focusing on presentations, but a lot of it’s about creativity.

03:36 Emily: Gotcha. What inspired you to go into this line of work?

03:40 Echo: In undergrad I was really torn between going into graphic design for my major or psychology for my major. I had already transferred universities and it was already going to take me five years to get my bachelor’s degree and it would have taken even longer if I switched my major to graphic design. So I basically just went with psychology and I enjoyed research. My degree is in research, not clinical psychology, so I just kind of went with it. But I never really left that graphic design world. I took classes, I learned on my own, and in grad school, I just kind of started merging those together, using graphic design for things like participant recruitment flyers and toolkits, presentations, obviously. I did comics for a blog. It just kind of always was merged for me, and I really loved it, so I made it my business.

04:37 Emily: Yeah. Well, it is kind of a leap from applying your talents and doing something for your own work, to teaching others how to do it or doing it for other people. Now which one do you do or is it both?

04:49 Echo: It’s both. I do design presentation slides or comics or things like that for others. I also train people to do it and I have sort of different options, like an online course or one-on-one sort of more mentoring style. I try to help everybody where they’re at, and what their available time and resources look like. So I offer that that wide range.

05:13 Emily: Gotcha. Very, very exciting. I had another interview recently in season three with Dr. Gaius Augustus who told a similar story, I’m sure you know Gaius, of how he also was an artist and a scientist and over time has found a way to combine both of those two passions. So yeah, really cool that we’re having another episode around that same idea.

Effective Presenting and Finances

05:35 Emily: But Echo, why are you here on a personal finance podcast talking about effective presenting? How can the skills that you teach people, if people are able to present more effectively, how can that actually affect their bottom line?

05:52 Echo: I’m so excited to talk about this, especially because I haven’t really talked about this on my blog, yet, so this is kind of the first time I’m really out there telling people this, but I need to, because effective presenting it can help you in some pretty obvious ways, but also some more indirect ways that you might not have thought about. The things I want to talk about today are how effective presenting can help you with the obvious thing, which is a job talk. Pretty important. And some of the less obvious things, like networking and promotions, once you have a job.

Situation #1: Job Talks

06:29 Emily: Excellent. Yeah, let’s get started with the obvious one. If you are finishing up your PhD, finishing up a postdoc, finishing up a job, you’re looking for something new. Pretty common. If you’re going to another research position, certainly within academia, but also outside of academia that you’re going to have to give a job talk or research talk in some capacity. So you’re presenting your past work, maybe you’re even presenting a proposal for future work at that particular institution. That’s kind of the context of what we mean by a job talk. So what can people do when they’re preparing for a job talk to make it killer? And why would it matter if they did a great presenting job with that? How would that actually affect whether or not they get the position?

07:10 Echo: Yeah, yeah. Let’s talk about all of that. So why does this matter? I’ll start there. The reason why this matters is because once you get to that point, once you’re invited for an interview, the job talk is probably one of the most important things. I have even a couple of quotes for you. Karen Kelsey, from The Professor Is In, who is amazing and if you don’t know about her website definitely check it out. In one of her webinars about job talks, she had a quote, this is sort of like a loose quote, but she said “you cannot bomb the job talk and still get the job.” She just came right out and she just said it. You’re not going to get an offer if you bomb the job talk. That’s how important it is. And even Rick Reis, I might be saying his name wrong, from Stanford, he’s called Tomorrow’s Professor, he said the job talk is, quote: “Perhaps the single most important thing you’ll do during an academic interview.” So you know that’s a lot of pressure. I mean a lot rides on this job talk and —

08:22 Emily: I just want to jump in there, because it’s a little bit almost counterintuitive to think that it would matter that much, right? If you can’t do this one thing, you are disqualified from this new position. Because maybe giving presentations is not going to be a huge part of that actual job. Maybe doing the research is what it is or maybe it’s teaching, which is a little bit different from a presentation kind of scenario. The one-on-one interviewing that you do over the course of the interview visit, all that stuff matters as well. And maybe why is the job talk important in particular? I mean, we’re not asking why, we’re just saying it is really, really important. It’s a little bit counterintuitive because maybe you’re not thinking that that’s a huge part of what you do. I mean, what percentage of your time do you actually spend presenting, as like a researcher or an academic? It’s pretty small ,yet a lot rides on those singular moments, right?

09:17 Echo: Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of it is…I don’t know how it was 10, 15 years ago, but we all know how much more competitive the job market is now. It’s an ultra competitive situation and it is one way where you can set yourself apart from other people who are also there or doing a job talk. So that is one reason I think it’s so important. But I’m sure it’s a complex combination of reasons too.

09:50 Emily: That was the obvious thing, right? You’ve got to nail the job talk, of course, and the skills that you teach are going to help the candidate do that. Outside of the job talk scenario, what are some other ways and other scenarios where effective presenting can really help your finances?

Situation #2: Networking

10:08 Echo: Networking is one of the ones that might surprise people, because it is a little more indirect. This is something that will help just about everyone. I know we were just talking about a job talk and an academic interview, which mostly applies to academic jobs, but in terms of nonacademic jobs, as well as academic jobs, your network is crucial. It’s crucial for getting opportunities, whether it’s for publications or projects or grants or jobs even — your network is really crucial at pretty much any stage of your career. So how do you network? There’s a lot of tips out there, there’s a lot of suggestions, and one way is through presentations. So how? If you think about it, conferences are actually an excellent opportunity for increasing your network, which I think a lot of people already know. I don’t think that’s new and surprising. What people might not think about is that if you have a visually engaging, effective presentation, one that is organized, one that is easy to follow, that people understand that doesn’t feel overwhelming, isn’t just all text, isn’t just bullet points, it doesn’t have word clouds, doesn’t have all the data, it’s an organized narrative — people will be more likely to come up to you and talk to you after your presentation and you’re going to stand out more. If you think about it, one hard part about networking is just making that introduction. When you want to meet someone new but you’re nervous, you don’t know how to break the ice, you don’t know what to say — if you have a presentation, you’ve given that to people. People can now come up to you and they know what they want to say — “your presentation was great, your slides were great, I loved your presentation” — and it breaks the ice and people have already connected with you because you presentation was great. It speeds all that up along and encourages ways to build your network.

12:17 Emily: I totally, totally agree with you. Obviously as someone who presents as part of my living, I agree with you that it’s, it’s a wonderful way to start networking. Another thing, a little bit to take a step back from maybe an individual presentation that you give, if you as a researcher, as a PhD, increase your confidence around presenting because you’ve learned how to create effective visuals, you’ve done some practicing of your actual delivery of presentation, wouldn’t you be more likely to put your name in to do this sort of thing more and more and more, if you build up your skills and you feel competent. It’s kind of a stereotype, but public speaking is people’s number one fear, right? It’s like the worst, most intimidating thing that you would possibly do. Many, many people think that. So instead of shrinking back from those opportunities, if you have confidence around that, especially if you’ve been trained in some capacity, then you can again, put yourself out there, put yourself forward, and be increasing your network, because you’re just having more and more of those opportunities, where maybe you wouldn’t, if you weren’t feeling so confident about it.

13:23 Echo: Absolutely. I’m really glad that you actually brought that up because I’ve really started all of this — my own personal training for effective presenting, because I was terrified of public speaking. I was scared. I was nervous. I would throw up before a presentation. I was really high on that anxiety scale. I started doing visual presentations and storytelling and academic presentations almost as a way to distract from myself and help myself just get up on the stage hoping people would look at my slides and not mean. Then, just over time people would compliment me and I would be surprised and not believe them at first, but then, over time, it really did build up my confidence and now I love it. Now I love public speaking and giving presentations because I know people are going to engage with it. It’s going to resonate with them, they’re going to be able to understand it and it goes really well.

14:23 Emily: Yeah, and this ties into the job talk part of it as well. If you’re feeling confident about giving that job talk, you’re going to come off that much better in the interview. Something I’ve also seen, and this is sort of regarding networking as well, in the past few years since I’ve been giving presentations at universities, I see people pull out their phones or their iPads and take photos of my screen. I’m assuming it’s usually for their own like future reference or something like that. But if you, and I’m not saying I do, but if one has really beautiful visuals up on that screen, that’s a sharing opportunity, in terms of social media. We’ve all seen, if you follow a conference on Twitter, people are posting images of slides from presentations and so forth, so if you have a particularly beautiful, engaging, clear, as you were saying earlier, slide, that’s something that could even expand that network beyond the people in the room.

15:18 Echo: That’s such a great idea. Yeah, that is so true. I definitely see people sharing slides from conferences they’re at all the time on Twitter and the ones that get a lot of engagement and excitement are definitely the ones I would say are more well-designed compared to the ones that are all text, small text, bullet points, that kind of thing.

15:38 Emily: Yeah. The text ones might be getting some photos in the room because they’re like, “Oh, I can’t read all of this and the amount of time it’s going to be up, I need this for future reference”, but the shareable ones are definitely going to be the more beautiful and clear ones.

Commercial

15:53 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money, but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series, as you make changes over the long term. You can find out more at PFforPhDs.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part coaching, part course, and part community. You can find out more and join the wait list for the next time I open the program at PFforPhDs.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Situation #3: Promotions

17:07 Emily: Okay, so what was the third way that effective presenting can affect one’s bottom line?

17:13 Echo: The other way was promotions. This works for academic context, but also nonacademic context. A lot of people think that, okay, so presentations are great for a job talk, itt helps me get the job, but once I have it, now it’s time to worry about tenure. And that is all about publications and that’s not a good time to learn how to present effectively. And yes, publications are important. I’m not trying to diminish that at all, but I think people don’t realize how presentations can help with the other part of the tenure package. So for example, I just had a student in one of my online courses, she’s an assistant professor. She just did her third year review letter, which she called, a mini tenure package and she wrote in there in her section about teaching effectiveness, she talked about the professional development that she took, how it helped her teach her undergrads and how she was evidenced based principles that she learned in my course for learning and memory and that kind of thing. And she had quotes from her student evaluations and her students even said things like “the PowerPoints were the best part of the class” — is a loose quote. But it was something like that where they said PowerPoint slides were the best part of this course. And so it can help you in that area. It can help you with maybe the broader impact, if you have to talk about that. It can help you with those other areas if you just frame it that way.

18:49 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this all again goes back to effective communication of which presenting and visuals and all of that are components of that. But just effective communication in general, of course that’s going to help you maintain the job you have, get promotions at the job that you’re in, not just in a new job scenario. Yeah. Great point. And again, I actually want to go back to the confidence aspect that we were talking about earlier because I’m thinking, okay, we’ve been talking a lot about landing a job, keeping a job, and that’s career-related, which is obviously within the scope of personal finance. But I’m also thinking about like negotiations. I don’t know if you’d necessarily be using visuals in a in a negotiation session with your potential supervisor or boss, or your existing one, b,ut again around the confidence, if you’re just building up your confidence in talking in front of people, in presenting a case to other people, that is an enormous asset to have with you when you go into a negotiation situation.

19:53 Echo: Yeah, and I would actually agree with that. Part of effective presenting, a lot of people are thinking probably about design, about typography and text and text size and colors and that kind of thing, which is definitely part of it. The other part is also the story-boarding, which is just the word I use to describe organizing your content, what order are you going to say things, what are you going to say, what level of detail. And learning that for presentations is a great place to start, but then it starts helping you just to make good arguments in other areas. I’ve heard this from my students that it even helped with things like grant applications because you learn how to set up your argument and maybe it’s not an argument, but you still learn how to hook the audience from the first thing that you say. So yeah, if you want to negotiate for a promotion or a raise, you’ll have more skills to do that in a more narrative, storytelling kind of way. A lot of academics were trained to do fact, fact, fact, like just a list of facts, just a data dump. And that’s not an effective way to communicate. That wouldn’t be an effective way to communicate for a promotion, probably. You would want to start with more of an engaging opening, so to speak.

21:23 Emily: Yeah. I’m really seeing how, I mean, we started talking about effective presenting, but how these skills that you’re talking about are permeating so many different areas of professional life.

21:35 Emily: Okay, I think we’ve made a good case. People care about the skill set, they want to get better at it. Really quickly, what are some tips that you have for people to do a better job in this area that they could implement right away?

Presentation Tips You Can Implement Today

21:52 Echo: Yeah. I think there’s some things that you’ve heard before so I won’t spend too much time on them. I’ll just reinforce them a little bit. Less text. Yes, even academics want less text on your slides and you want to use bigger font sizes. A lot of people they have too small font sizes. The other thing that I wanted to mention, because a lot of people feel like the problem is PowerPoint, and that they have to spend a lot of money on a fancy program like Prezi, or they have to take a lot of time to learn a new program. I have good news and the good news is that you don’t need to do that. PowerPoint is actually fantastic. You can absolutely make visually engaging presentations with PowerPoint or with Keynote. So if you’re an Apple user, Keynote is great as well. Google Slides is okay. It has fewer features, and most people have PowerPoint anyway. So PowerPoint is great. You can totally use PowerPoint.

22:53 Emily: Yeah. So it turns out the tool was not the problem, it’s our usage of the tool.

22:59 Echo: Exactly. And the other thing I wanted to mention was habits. You probably also know that you should be practicing your presentation and that you should be starting your presentation earlier than say, on the plane ride to the conference. I know —

23:16 Emily: You don’t say?

23:17 Echo: I know it happens, I’ve done it, so I totally get it, I’ve totally been there. But if you start earlier, it doesn’t have to be a lot of time, but if you start earlier and give yourself time in between revisions, you’ll be surprised at how much better your presentations turn out, because I think a lot of presentations are ineffective because people are cramming in it at the last second.

23:40 Emily: Yeah, it’s just something that hasn’t been thought through well yet.

23:44 Echo: Yeah, exactly.

Final Words of Advice

23:46 Emily: The final question that I like to ask everyone who comes on the podcast is what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be related to what we’ve been talking about today or it could be something totally different.

24:00 Echo: Yeah, I think, partly related to what we’re talking about is try to invest in yourself as soon as you can. Especially for something like effective communication skills, effective presentation skills, the earlier you can get in on some type of professional development, it’s going to pay off more in the long run. For example, if you learn it now, then you’re going to have those skills when it comes time to make your job talk presentation, you’re teaching demo. You’ll already know how to make good slides for that and a good presentation from start to finis,h rather than trying to do all of that at the last second. And the earlier you learn it, the sooner your presentations will be better and more effective, and then you can sort of continue to improve on that over time. That’s sort of a tip I wanted to share.

24:53 Emily: Yeah, totally, totally agree. And the thing is, the listener might be thinking, especially if they’re still in training, “I am investing in myself right now, I’m taking this huge pay cut to like be in grad school or be doing a postdoc, that is investing in myself.” But the unfortunate reality, as we mentioned earlier, is that a lot of essential skills for the workplace, and even for the job you have right now, are not being taught by universities or by advisers or by departments. Maybe they are in some pockets, I don’t want to say that’s a universal thing. Maybe you at your university have a course on public speaking. Maybe there’s something available to you, that’s awesome if you can take advantage of that. But probably most places it’s not available, or it’s not really a good time investment, maybe you have to put way too much time into it than what would be effective for you. So I totally agree that it’s oftentimes very necessary to go outside the university environment to pick up these skills. And the earlier you do it, of course, as you said, the more and more you can deploy those skills over the years and hone them and continue to develop them.

Find Dr. Echo Rivera Online

25:58 Emily: Speaking of which, Echo, how do people get them to get you to teach them some of these skills that we’ve been talking about?

26:06 Echo: Yeah, so I hope that I’ve excited people about learning presentation design and how to be an effective presenter because I have tons of stuff on my website. I have free courses, I have tons of blog posts, I have some download-ables in my blog posts, I have a YouTube channel. All of that you can find at echorivera.com so it’s just my name, Echo Rivera dot com. I’m also really active on social media. I’m on Twitter and Instagram and my handles are @echoechoR. Find me on social media, check out my website. I’d love to connect and I’m just kind of curious what people thought of this podcast and if they learned something new or just want to chat, so don’t hesitate to reach out.

26:59 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. When this episode comes out, I’ll be tweeting a bunch of times that week and tagging Echo and certainly reply to any of those and tell us like what you thought about this. Maybe this is a surprising thing for us to talk be talking about on a personal finance podcast, but as you can see, it plays into your finances in so many different ways and these skill sets are so essential. Echo, thank you so much for, for being my guest today.

27:24 Echo: Thanks so much for having me.

Outtro

27:26 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.