Personal Finance for PhDs

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Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise: Choose a PhD Program That Will Support Your Personal and Professional Development

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This episode comprises seven audio clips from PhDs and PhD students who are advocates for PhD students’ professional and personal development. They each answer the prompt: “What aspects of a PhD program – beyond academics and research – should a prospective graduate student consider when deciding among offers of admission and why? How should they investigate and evaluate the strength of a program in this area?” The contributors are Dr. Emily Roberts of Personal Finance for PhDs on finances, Mr. Kevin Bird on unionization and advocacy, Dr. Emily Myers on unionization and advocacy, Dr. Jen Polk of Beyond the Professoriate on career development, Dr. Katy Peplin of Thrive PhD on mental health, Ms. Susanna Harris of PhD Balance on mental health, and Dr. Katie Wedemeyer-Strombel on work-life balance. Please share this episode with all the prospective PhD students in your life!

Links Mentioned in This Episode

PhD personal professional development

Introduction

00:05 Emily R.: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season five, episode two and today I have a very special episode for you. I have invited six other PhD advocates to contribute their voices to this episode and you’ll hear from myself and each one of them in turn. The questions I’ve asked each of these contributors to answer are: what aspect of a PhD program, beyond academics and research should a prospective graduate student consider when deciding among offers of admission, and why? How should they investigate and evaluate the strength of a program in this area?

00:45 Emily R.: If you’ve already matriculated into or completed a PhD program, you probably appreciate what an important topic this is. Will you take a minute to please share this episode with prospective PhD students in your sphere of influence? Please tweet your thoughts on the episode using the hashtag #PhDfactors. In this episode, we’re going to hear from me, Dr. Emily Roberts of Personal Finance for PhDs on finances, Mr. Kevin Byrd on unionization and advocacy, Dr. Emily Myers on unionization and advocacy, Dr. Jen Polk of beyond the professoriate on career development, Dr. Katie Pepin of thrive PhD on mental health, Ms. Susanna Harris of PhD balance on mental health and Dr. Katie Wedemeyer-Strombel on work life balance. Without further ado, let’s hear from our contributors.

Finances with Dr. Emily Roberts

01:43 Emily R.: Naturally, my contribution to this episode revolves around your finances, specifically how to evaluate whether you will be sufficiently supported by the stipend or salary provided by the program. You may or may not end up using this factor when you choose your PhD program, but either way you should go into graduate school well aware of the financial realities. When I was applying to PhD programs, I didn’t pay much attention to the stipends in the offer letters. I naively trusted that every program I was accepted to would support me financially to a reasonable degree. The PhD program I picked based on only the research opportunities and location actually did pay a decent stipend, but that was blind luck on my part. I know now that graduate students often do experience a great degree of financial stress and ill effects. Approximately 50% of PhD students take out student loans, prior to graduation and many also accumulate credit card and other types of consumer debt. Some PhD students qualify for snap benefits and a few experience food insecurity. Think about the difference it would make to your mental health alone to attend a graduate program with a stipend that allows for a comfortable standard of living versus a program where you have to pinch every penny, side hustle like mad, and still be in the red every month. Do you think you will be able to perform well academically if you’re experiencing chronic financial stress?

03:08 Emily R.: There are long-term financial effects to think about as well. If you currently have student loans, will your stipend allow you to start to repay them? If they are un-subsidized, they will accrue interest all through your graduate school deferment period and you’ll have an even larger balance to tackle post-PhD. What if you were able to start investing with your stipend? If you’ve never played around with a compound interest calculator, pause this episode and spend a few minutes doing so now. With reasonable assumptions, investing $250 per month throughout only five years of graduate school can turn into nearly $1 million in your retirement years. That’s $1 million of wealth in retirement that would not exist if you accepted a stipend that didn’t afford you that ability to save.

03:56 Emily R.: Are you sufficiently motivated to pay attention to the stipends in your offer letters? Good. I’m going to tell you how to evaluate the single most important factor in your funding package. The number that I want you to find in each of your offer letters is your stipend or salary net of fees. Some of your offer letters might state this number clearly and some might obfuscate it. To compare apples to apples across all your offers, you need to know how much money is actually going to end up in your bank account after your tuition, insurance premiums, and all fees have been paid. If your offer letter doesn’t make it clear to you what financial obligations you will have to pay to the university from your stipend, it’s worth a follow-up email to clarify.

04:39 Emily R.: Next, we need to put this net stipend number in the context of the local cost of living for the university. I like to use the MIT living wage database for this. The living wage is basically the amount of money it takes to pay for basic living expenses like housing and food in that local area. It doesn’t include discretionary expenses like travel or putting money toward financial goals. Go to livingwage.mit.edu and click on the state and county of the university you’re considering scroll until you see the amount of money that constitutes a living wage, including income taxes for a single person. If you have a child, or someone else who depends on your income, you may need to scan over to the amounts for larger family sizes. Take the living wage number you found and compare it to the stipend after all education related expenses have been paid. Ideally, your stipend will be higher than the local living wage. Personally, I felt I was able to live comfortably during grad school and save a good amount of money and my stipend was about one third higher than the local living wage. The number that represents your stipend, net of fees divided by the local living wage is the number that you can compare across all of your offer letters.

05:54 Emily R.: Now, what should you do with this information? My advice, which you can take or leave, is to eliminate from consideration all of the PhD programs that will pay you less than the local living wage. If you choose to go to a program that pays you poorly, steel yourself for the likelihood that you will take out student loans or consumer debt during your PhD or have to devote a lot of time to side hustling. You may decide that this is worthwhile, but at least now you’ll go in with your eyes open. If you have two or more offers that are above the local living wage, if you like, you can continue to factor in financial considerations as you make your decision. In fact, I’ve made a list of a dozen additional factors you should evaluate before committing to a PhD program. The stipend divided by the local living wage actually just scratches the surface. You can download the PDF of the full list by going to pfforphds.com/offerletter and signing up for my mailing list.

Further reading: 10 Ways to Combat Financial Fragility Beyond Grad School

Unionization and Advocacy with Mr. Kevin Bird

07:00 Kevin: Hi, my name is Kevin Byrd. I’m a PhD candidate in the department of horticulture at Michigan State University and I’m also the current president of the graduate employees union in Michigan State and I’ll be covering how and why to take graduate unions into account for your graduate school decision. Graduate unions are important to consider because I think they’re central to a safe, secure, and equitable experience in graduate school. If you have a graduate union, it means there’s a system in place to combat harassment, discrimination, overwork, and other workplace mistreatments, independent from these university institutions. It also means there’s more power to pushing universities to provide living wages, comprehensive health insurance to all graduate assistants and to keep university fees low. When we were looking at other universities at Michigan State for our last contract campaign, we found a pretty stark pattern that the highest stipends in terms of cost of living were held by unionize universities and the lowest by non-unionized. In fact the only universities that had stipends less than half the cost of living were non-unionized universities.

08:03 Kevin: Additionally, through collective bargaining, there is something that holds institutions to their word and maintains benefits and services graduate assistants are entitled to receive. When I was an undergraduate at the University of Missouri, there was a moment when graduate assistants lost their health insurance with two days notice. Without a binding collective bargaining agreement, these students were largely left powerless to get back the benefits they were promised upon signing. Meanwhile, at Michigan State after several contract campaigns, we have some of the most comprehensive health care on campus with low deductibles and low co-pays, even after the university tried to reduce those benefits in the last contract cycle. It’s this sort of stability and progress that unions help maintain and build upon year after year. Hopefully the benefits of unions are at least partially clear right now and we can move on to how to evaluate unions at universities that you’re looking at.

08:52 Kevin: One of the first things to look at is whether the university is public, private, public universities are governed by state labor law, while private universities are governed by federal labor law. Given the latest ruling by the national labor review board, most private university unions are fighting for a struggle to be recognized by universities, whereas many state labor laws allow for graduate students to be unionized. Knowing whether university is public or private is one of the easiest ways to figure out if there is an established union or if there is a union currently fighting for recognition. Right now at Harvard University, the University of Chicago, and Loyola, all private universities, there are unions but they are not officially recognized by the university and they have not been able to participate in collective bargaining.

09:33 Kevin: The next move would be some internet sleuthing to look at the website of the union at the university you’re looking at first see if they have their last collective bargaining agreement posted. This would tell you the benefits that graduate assistants currently have with the university, especially important things like the minimum stipend the university can pay you, the pay increases every year, and the current health insurance plan the graduate students currently enjoy.

09:54 Kevin: Next, would be the current campaigns the union’s currently working on. What sort of things need to be addressed in the university? What’s the union doing to address them? And what does progress look like over the last few years? All of these things will help you get a landscape of what issues are facing a campus and how a union is working to address them and how successful they’ve been in the past. Additionally, you can look at media presence to see how the news covered the last bargaining cycle that a union undertook. Did they have to shut down streets with a march? Did the hold rallies? What sort of actions were they able to take that eventually led to the progress that they got in their latest contract? These things in particular can tell you how well organized a union is and how they can use their power to make changes on progress for graduate assistance.

10:34 Kevin: You can also look for other benefits that unions provide to their members. At Michigan State, we have something called the solidarity grant where members can apply to the union in times of financial need and receive a couple of hundred dollars or a thousand dollars to address major crises that have occurred in their life, from a flat tire to burst pipes. One final thing to consider is whether the university website talks about the union on it. This could be an indication of labor relations between the union and the university. It’s probably best to be at a university that acknowledges and at least recognizes the union and works to distribute information about contract benefits to prospective and current students.

11:07 Kevin: All these things considered, I would personally recommend prioritizing universities with strong unions in your decision. A graduate degree can take many years and the political and economic landscape can change rapidly. An established union is capable of increasing and maintaining current benefits, while also fighting off rash decisions by university administrations. If you’re committing to live somewhere for five years and you’re embarking on an ambitious academic project, it’s good to have someone on your side fighting for your benefits and maintaining a quality of life that you deserve while you’re working on this degree. While these conditions may exist anywhere, I think they’re much more likely to occur in universities with strong graduate unions.

Unionization and Advocacy with Dr. Emily Myers

11:50 Emily M.: Hi, my name is Dr. Emily Myers. I, very recently, as of last week, have a PhD in pharmacology from the University of Washington, here in Seattle. I am also an executive board member with UAW 4121, which is the union that represents about 6,000 postdocs and academic student employees, like teaching and research assistants, here at the University of Washington. I am going to give some insights into what I wish I had known when I was looking for a PhD program, and how important unions can be for your graduate student experience beyond stipends and student fees, which unions have also won major victories for graduate students.

12:31 Emily M.: So I chose my program for my science interests and because I loved Seattle, but I really didn’t have the depth of knowledge about how institutions work that I do now that I’m on the other side of my PhD. I was fortunate that I chose a university where the graduate students had been unionized and had been building power since 2001 and we had stronger workplace protections than most other schools, because academia is a strict hierarchy, with power dynamics that do not favor trainees, like grad students. In tandem with these power structures are institutional structures, where harassment and discrimination are widespread. In fact, the National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine put out a report last year showing that women in science face rates of harassment second only to the military, and that this was for white women, and so fails to capture any sort of intersecting identities. And it’s important to understand that harassment and discrimination are about power, and who has power, and who maintains access to that power. Unions are a fundamental way to change power structures, through bottom up grassroots organizing, and gives graduate students and other trainees more of a voice in their workplace. As union members, we have access to third party neutral arbitration, which is the only scenario where the university does not have final control over the outcome of a harassment claim. This is a huge step in rebalancing power and that’s one of the top things that grad students at Harvard are on strike over and are fighting for right now.

14:07 Emily M.: In addition, unions can be a phenomenal source of community in graduate school, because graduate school can be extremely isolating. And so finding folks outside of your discipline is huge and the unions can also offer resources that are not dependent on university approval, which can be critical for international students on visas. And I think that enthusiasm and recognition for the need to change these power structures is reflected in how we are seeing a huge spike in graduate students and postdocs forming unions across the country at all kinds of schools.

14:43 Emily M.: So to give an example of this, towards the end of my time as a PhD student, I made a complaint about a professor in my department who notorious for making sexual jokes for harassing young women and saying racist things. And the university investigated and said while they believed us, but it wasn’t bad enough, meaning it didn’t cross the legal definition of harassment, and so the university was not liable and would not take further action. And it was through working with my union, we were able to get this professor removed from supervision of grad students, even after the university failed to take action. So I am not sure that without my union community and allies, I would have felt safe enough to say anything in the first place, let alone get results from speaking out about harassment.

15:32 Emily M.: As always, I hope anyone listening here won’t face harassment and discrimination in their time as a graduate student or in general. But I also strongly encourage anyone who comes from a marginalized background or is concerned about their future work environments to consider the status of a graduate student union in their decisions about choosing a program. So you can find out if a university has a union by either asking current graduate students. Or universities typically will have a labor relations office and you can check their webpage to see what workers are unionized on campus and you’ll want to look for a name and local number. Like for example, UAW 4121 is United Auto Workers four one two one. Because student senates and associations are not the same thing. And you can always reach out to current graduate unions like mine at UAW4121.org for more resources or resources or information. Or for example, if you’re in California, it would be UAW2865.org. And with that I just want to say congratulations on your PhD programs and good luck.

Career Development with Dr. Jennifer Polk

16:50 Jennifer: My name is Jennifer Polk and I’m co-founder of Beyond The Professoriate. I earned my PhD in history from the University of Toronto and now work full-time helping graduate students and doctoral degree holders build awesome careers. It’s crucial to actively attend to your career while pursuing a PhD. This might seem counterintuitive. After all, isn’t the PhD itself the thing that will help your career? While that may occasionally be true, it’s only true if you build into your experience activities and accomplishments that matter to employers, both within and beyond academia. That building is usually something you need to do for yourself. You can’t rely on your advisor or graduate program to do it for you.

17:44 Jennifer: Most PhD students live on minimal stipends and it’s common for folks to take additional paid work, if they’re able, to pay their way. An awful lot of folks have significant student loans too, of course, and if you’re a regular listener of this podcast, you know all this very well. All of that is to say that you might need a decent paying job pretty quickly once you graduate. Since it could take months to find work, even for the most successful among us, you’ll need to put in the groundwork over the years of your PhD to build experiences, gain skills, and cultivate a professional network that spans a variety of fields. That’s so you’ll be in a good position to get hired when it’s time to start applying for jobs. Ideally, your advisor will be supportive of your career no matter where it takes you. A good match with your primary advisor is incredibly important. That’s true beyond career concerns, of course. Advisors have a lot of influence over your experience, much more than you might expect, and there are academic studies that show this. I’m not just making it up.

19:01 Jennifer: Beyond your advisor, ideally, your department and the graduate program specifically will actively create opportunities for you and your fellow students to gain professional experience and grow your networks. Maybe you can do an internship with the full support of your department or attend regular lunch and learn or other networking events that they organize. Pay attention to academic and nonacademic resources. The default in many academic disciplines is to privilege scholarly careers above all others. Avoid, please, avoid departments that give you that vibe. They are not living in reality and you very much will be.

19:46 Jennifer: The bottom line here is to make sure your advisor will treat you with respect always and support you doing what you need to do to build career-relevant experiences and skills for both academic and nonacademic careers. You can absolutely ask your prospective advisors pointed questions about what kinds of career support you can expect. This is your career, your life, and you want to make sure you’ll get the support and resources you need for success during and after your studies. Graduate school is hard enough without all this added stress.

20:21 Jennifer: As you’re exploring your options, learn about programming and other opportunities available to you via the institution’s career center or graduate school. Look, for example, for a robust series of workshops, for career consultants, you can make one on one appointments with. Maybe they focus specifically on graduate students, even just PhD students. That’s awesome. You can also investigate what’s being done at the association level, so to check on what your academic discipline is up to. For example, some of the larger scientific societies host regular webinars and program multiple career-related sessions during their annual meetings. That’s great. Do take a proactive approach before you accept an offer and enroll. This is not the time to be shy. If you don’t find a good fit, you might be better off not doing a PhD at all or not this year. Your bachelor’s or master’s degrees are absolutely good enough to help you create an awesome career and life for yourself. One filled with all the creativity, intellectual rigor and challenging problem solving that drew you to want to do a PhD in the first place.

21:36 Jennifer: Learn more about Beyond the Professoriate on our website beyondprof.com and you can find us on social media too. You can also follow me, Jen, on Twitter at @FromPhDtoLife. I’d love to see you there. Thank you.

Mental Health with Dr. Katy Peplin

21:58 Katy: Hello, my name is Dr. Katy Pepin and I am the founder and head coach of Thrive PhD. Thrive PhD is a community for graduate students. It’s also individual coaching, courses, a Twitter presence, and Instagram all at that handle. Why I care about this aspect, mental health, of PhD programs is because it was one of the things that was so hard for me when I was a grad student. I have been dealing with a brain that tends toward anxiety, that can have some depression issues. My diagnoses aren’t as important as the fact that I knew early on in my PhD program that if I didn’t take care of my brain, as well as my career and my publications, I wasn’t gonna make it through.

22:48 Katy: So some of the things that I think it’s important to consider when you’re looking at a PhD program are first of all, the resources that are available for your mental health, through the university and hopefully at no cost or little cost to you. Some questions to ask: are grad students allowed to be seen in the on-campus mental health facilities? Sometimes those are undergraduate student only, so that’s important to know. Whether or not the health insurance that you’ll be offered covers mental health services or medications? If so, is there a limit to how many sessions you can have per year or per semester? Do you have the ability to be seen by providers outside of that insurance network or are you limited to a handful of people inside of the area? All really good questions to ask for your insurance.

23:41 Katy: Secondly, it’s important to kind of ask some questions around the mental health culture in the department. Some of the sure sign tells for me are: one, do graduate students stay enrolled? Do they have a high dropout rate? Sometimes that can indicate a mental health climate problem. Do people openly and excitedly talk about their non-PhD, non-grad school lives in the program? Do they talk about how they go rock climbing? Is it encouraged to work out? Do people have the ability to flex their schedules based on how they’re feeling on any given day? Is the opportunity available for you to work remotely? And if people are struggling, do people feel comfortable asking for help around those areas?

24:29 Katy: It can be really difficult to find that out on a prospective visit or even from an email as you’re evaluating, as you’re not a student. But it can be very important to find ways to ask that question. So some of the questions that I have asked to get around the mental health climate without directly saying, does your faculty support or not support the idea of graduate students having robust mental health resources and support, are to ask things like, do people feel comfortable talking about their personal lives? Do any graduate students have different family structures? Do graduate students have kids? Is anybody a parent? Is anyone a caretaker? What kind of relationships do people have? And are those things supported? Another great question to ask are how are the boundaries around breaks? One of the sure fire tells of a department that has a kind of problematic culture around mental health is that students either don’t feel comfortable taking breaks or they only take them in between the semester when their grading is finished or when the university is otherwise shut down. So ask graduate students, you know, what are the PI’s policies around weekends and evening work? What are the policies if you need to go home unexpectedly or if you’re not from here? Is it flexible enough for you to work remotely if you need to? Are there opportunities for graduate students to tweak the conditions of their work in order to best support themselves?

26:02 Katy: It can be really hard to ask those questions and it definitely can be worrying to say, I want to know what these resources are in advance because some graduate students might feel like that makes them seem like they’re already a problem and they’re not even there. So I would embolden you and encourage you to ask as many questions as you feel comfortable, but know that there are always ways to build support around yourself, whether that is through what the university provides or supplementing it from an outside perspective or place. I’m wishing you a happy new year. And again, my name is Katy Paplin. I am the founder of thrive PhD. You can find me on Twitter or Instagram @ThrivePhD or thrive-phd.com

Mental Health with Ms. Susanna Harris

26:58 Susanna: Hi everyone. My name is Susanna Harris and I am a PhD candidate at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. I am also the founder and CEO of the PhD Balance. PhD Balance is an online community dedicated to talking about those difficult challenges and problems we face while we’re in our graduate programs. I founded this group because we really wanted to make a space to talk about certain things like dealing with difficult advisers or understanding what to do after graduation, but most importantly we wanted to talk about the struggles that students have with their mental health and with dealing with mental illness throughout their programs. I really care about this because I myself have depression and anxiety and I realized that a lot of other people around me did as well, but we just didn’t talk about it.

27:48 Susanna: For this reason, I think it’s really important to look at graduate programs and understand how they will support students’ mental health. You can get a good idea of this based on what kind of resources they have, as in, can you go to campus health? How long does it take to get an appointment? What kind of treatments are covered and can you see a therapist outside of those treatment options? This might include how does the department respond to when there is a mental health crisis or when a student divulges to someone that they are struggling with some sort of mental illness. You can even understand what is the culture surrounding the discussion of mental illness. Does the department actively provide resources? Will the lab group that you’re joining be open and accepting of someone having a difficult time? Does the university provide mental health days or access to other kinds of literature? This is really important because although a lot of us, myself included, go into graduate school thinking we are prepared and we will somehow get through it faster and easier than the average, we have to remember that the average is made up of people just like us and I’ve quickly realized that the challenges I faced in the PhD were just as hard as people before me had said.

29:06 Susanna: So what are the best ways to go about seeing if your new program or your new lab will take care of your mental health, no matter what kind of challenges arise? The best way to do this is to just ask people directly. Say, “this is something that is commonly talked about. I know that others have expressed difficulties with dealing with their mental health. How does it work in where you are?” It’s better to ask things about how or what or when rather than just asking, “is the mental health culture good or is mental health supported?” You can ask things like what has happened in the past when someone has talked about these things or you can say, are you aware of what resources there are and can you show me where to find them? Even understanding if a faculty member or a lab member or department has or knows about these resources tells you a lot about how important this topic is to them.

29:57 Susanna: If you want to understand more about my perspective, you can find me on Instagram and Twitter at @SusannaLHarris and I would love for you to check out PhD Balance. We have a website that’s www.phdbalance.com or you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram to hear other people’s stories of dealing with these really hard challenges in graduate schools and sharing resources about how to get through a program. That’s at @PhD_balance. So thank you so much. Bye.

Work-Life Balance with Dr. Katie Wedemeyer-Strombel

30:39 Katie: Hi, I’m Dr. Katie Wedemeyer-Strombel and if you follow me on Twitter it will be no surprise that I’m here to talk about the importance of considering work-life balance when choosing a PhD program. This is a subject I’m passionate about because I chose a PhD program without considering things like departmental culture and the recreational opportunities in the area. Both of these ended up being a pretty bad fit for me and in hindsight I wish I would have more strongly considered the nonacademic factors as seriously as I considered the academic ones. As a PhD student, it’s very easy to lose yourself to your program, to your work, and it’s critical that you’re able to rest and recreate regularly in ways that fuel you. As I say frequently, rest is not just a reward for hard work, but a critical component to working hard. Making sure that the university you attend and the surrounding area can provide enough resources for your well-rounded life and interests is important.

31:33 Katie: When you become a PhD student, generally you will work for the university as a teaching or research assistant in addition to conducting your own research and while will take up a lot of your time and energy, it should not and does not have to be all that you are. You are allowed to be a whole person, not just a research robot and finding a departmental culture and location that fit your interests is important.

31:57 Katie: Let’s first talk about departmental culture. What do I mean by this? Let’s say for example, if you don’t drink alcohol but learn that a department you’re considering regularly encourages binge drinking as a reward for working hard, then perhaps that’s not a great fit for you. If it’s important for you to see your family for certain holidays, make sure that the department you’ll be joining encourages or at the very least does not reprimand students for taking time to spend with loved ones.

32:25 Katie: Now about location of the program. This is something, again, I mistakenly did not consider when choosing my program and it made falling into the bad habits of overwork and over-drinking too easy, as my usual hobbies and recreational activities were hard to come by in the area. For example, do you like to hike and camp? Then a university in a flat state with few nature exploration opportunities may not be a good fit. Do you enjoy seeing or performing in live theater? Google the area and make sure there’s an outlet for this nearby. Does seeing the ocean or other body of water help calm you down when you’re stressed out? If so, maybe only consider schools that have natural features that fit these needs.

33:04 Katie: So how can you look into the work life balance factors as a perspective student? Well, the best thing you can do is ask current students in the department, preferably over the phone or in person, questions about the local culture within the department and the recreational opportunities nearby. Preferably, you’ll be able to talk to this current students over the phone or in person, and I specifically recommend asking over the phone or in person so that the current students will feel more open to answering honestly, as they don’t have a written record of their answers. If you are unable to ask in person, say on a recruiting trip, you can email and ask for a quick phone call. In my experience as both the perspective student and the current student in this scenario, most folks are happy to chat and share their own experiences. Some questions that I recommend asking are: are current students able to comfortably take time to spend with loved ones? Can they travel for holidays? Are they encouraged or reprimanded for working reasonable hours and taking time away when needed? What do they do for fun that’s not related to their work? What do they like most about the location of their program? And what do they like most about the departmental culture that they’re in? If you’re a minority, I’d also recommend asking others who share similar backgrounds with you if they feel that their way of life feels welcomed and safe within their department and local culture. And one of the most important questions I think you can ask is if the current student would choose the same program again, knowing what they know now about it.

32:42 Katie: So now that you’ve talked with the current students about the departmental culture and the location of the university, what do you do with this information? Seriously consider their answers and allow those answers to help you decide between programs. If you get an off feeling from a program’s culture or worry that you won’t be able to do your favorite hobby, trust your gut and find a program that best suits your needs, both the academic and your personal work life balance needs. As my amazing advisor, Dr. Tarla Rai Peterson once told me, “We are all better off when we give ourselves permission to know one another as whole people.” Your PhD research is going to be important, but who you are as a person is even more important and I encourage you to consider your own personal needs in addition to your academic ones in choosing a program. For more on work life balance as a graduate student, you can read some articles I have in the Chronicle of Higher Education or follow me on Twitter at @krwedermeyer. Thanks for listening and best of luck as you choose your program.

Outtro

35:58 Emily R.: It’s Emily again as we close out this episode. I’d like to emphasize two themes I heard from the contributors. First, grad school is your real life. It’s not reasonable to try to ignore or suppress your personal life or what makes you happy and healthy for the five or so years you’ll spend in your PhD program. Choose a PhD program that enables you to live a full life and succeed academically. Second, you can find a good amount of information online, but nothing can replace personal real time conversations with current graduate students. The best time and place for those conversations, and your other observations, is during campus visits. I encourage you to attend as many of those as you possibly can and participate in them fully, asking all the questions the contributors suggested in this episode. You can follow up over the phone, as needed, as decision day approaches. I wish you all the best in choosing the PhD program that will foster both your professional and personal development. Please share this episode with all of the prospective PhD students in your life.

37:12 Emily R.: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio

How Effective Presentations Advance Your Career and Improve Your Finances

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Echo Rivera, a PhD in community psychology and founder of Creative Research Communications. Echo is an expert in effective presentation, and she teaches these skills to other academics and researchers. Emily and Echo discuss the various ways effective presenting can improve an early-career PhD’s finances, such as through career advancement and networking in person and online. Effective presentation design can even help you feel more confident and move past a fear of public speaking, as it did for Echo.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

effective presenting PhDs

Teaser

00:00 Echo: Try to invest in yourself as soon as you can. Especially for something like effective communication skills, effective presentation skills, the earlier you can get in on some type of professional development, it’s going to pay off more in the long run.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season 4, episode 19 and today my guest is Dr. Echo Rivera, a PhD in community psychology and expert in effective presentation design. During graduate school, Echo began teaching herself effective presentation design to help her move past her own anxiety around public speaking. Through her business, Creative Research Communications, she teaches academics and researchers how to present effectively. We discuss the various ways effective presenting can improve your career prospects and financial bottom line. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Echo Rivera.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:05 Emily: Joining me on the podcast today is Dr. Echo Rivera, and I’m so pleased to have Echo on. We’ve been in each other’s circles for a number of years now, but this is actually the first time that we’re talking together live. I’m really excited to have a conversation with her about what she does and how it can improve early career PhDEs finances. So Echo, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

01:26 Echo: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

01:29 Emily: Awesome. So please tell us a little bit more about yourself.

01:33 Echo: Yeah, so just real briefly, I have a PhD in community psychology from Michigan State University and immediately after finishing my PhD, I got a job as a research associate at a nonprofit research and evaluation center and that’s in Denver, Colorado. I worked there for three years and then quit so that I could pursue my own business full time. That’s called Creative Research Communications and I’ve been doing that for about one and a half years. That’s the nutshell.

02:09 Emily: So one and a half years full time, but you started this sometime before you left your job?

02:14 Echo: Yeah, it was the side hustle. Something I worked on on the weekends or when I got home after work.

02:20 Emily: Yeah, we talk plenty about side hustling on this podcast. Echo and I met through the self employed PhD community originally, which now is part of Beyond the Professoriate run by Jen Polk and Maren Wood. If any of you are self employed in your side hustle or your full time thing, or interested in that, that’s a great community to join to have more conversations with me and people like Echo and others who are pursuing the same kind of thing, so definitely want to plug that.

More About Creative Research Communications

02:48 Emily: All right. So awesome. You’re now self-employed. Tell us a little bit more about what your business is, like what do you actually do?

02:56 Echo: Yeah, so I help academics and researchers and scientists and basically people in this higher education world, I help them communicate their work more effectively and creatively. So that’s mostly through slide presentations, like PowerPoint, Keynote, Google Slides, stuff like that, because it’s just a great place to start for a lot of people, but it also includes things like comics and infographics and visual abstracts and just things that are beyond a standard conference presentation or publication. Today I’ll be focusing on presentations, but a lot of it’s about creativity.

03:36 Emily: Gotcha. What inspired you to go into this line of work?

03:40 Echo: In undergrad I was really torn between going into graphic design for my major or psychology for my major. I had already transferred universities and it was already going to take me five years to get my bachelor’s degree and it would have taken even longer if I switched my major to graphic design. So I basically just went with psychology and I enjoyed research. My degree is in research, not clinical psychology, so I just kind of went with it. But I never really left that graphic design world. I took classes, I learned on my own, and in grad school, I just kind of started merging those together, using graphic design for things like participant recruitment flyers and toolkits, presentations, obviously. I did comics for a blog. It just kind of always was merged for me, and I really loved it, so I made it my business.

04:37 Emily: Yeah. Well, it is kind of a leap from applying your talents and doing something for your own work, to teaching others how to do it or doing it for other people. Now which one do you do or is it both?

04:49 Echo: It’s both. I do design presentation slides or comics or things like that for others. I also train people to do it and I have sort of different options, like an online course or one-on-one sort of more mentoring style. I try to help everybody where they’re at, and what their available time and resources look like. So I offer that that wide range.

05:13 Emily: Gotcha. Very, very exciting. I had another interview recently in season three with Dr. Gaius Augustus who told a similar story, I’m sure you know Gaius, of how he also was an artist and a scientist and over time has found a way to combine both of those two passions. So yeah, really cool that we’re having another episode around that same idea.

Effective Presenting and Finances

05:35 Emily: But Echo, why are you here on a personal finance podcast talking about effective presenting? How can the skills that you teach people, if people are able to present more effectively, how can that actually affect their bottom line?

05:52 Echo: I’m so excited to talk about this, especially because I haven’t really talked about this on my blog, yet, so this is kind of the first time I’m really out there telling people this, but I need to, because effective presenting it can help you in some pretty obvious ways, but also some more indirect ways that you might not have thought about. The things I want to talk about today are how effective presenting can help you with the obvious thing, which is a job talk. Pretty important. And some of the less obvious things, like networking and promotions, once you have a job.

Situation #1: Job Talks

06:29 Emily: Excellent. Yeah, let’s get started with the obvious one. If you are finishing up your PhD, finishing up a postdoc, finishing up a job, you’re looking for something new. Pretty common. If you’re going to another research position, certainly within academia, but also outside of academia that you’re going to have to give a job talk or research talk in some capacity. So you’re presenting your past work, maybe you’re even presenting a proposal for future work at that particular institution. That’s kind of the context of what we mean by a job talk. So what can people do when they’re preparing for a job talk to make it killer? And why would it matter if they did a great presenting job with that? How would that actually affect whether or not they get the position?

07:10 Echo: Yeah, yeah. Let’s talk about all of that. So why does this matter? I’ll start there. The reason why this matters is because once you get to that point, once you’re invited for an interview, the job talk is probably one of the most important things. I have even a couple of quotes for you. Karen Kelsey, from The Professor Is In, who is amazing and if you don’t know about her website definitely check it out. In one of her webinars about job talks, she had a quote, this is sort of like a loose quote, but she said “you cannot bomb the job talk and still get the job.” She just came right out and she just said it. You’re not going to get an offer if you bomb the job talk. That’s how important it is. And even Rick Reis, I might be saying his name wrong, from Stanford, he’s called Tomorrow’s Professor, he said the job talk is, quote: “Perhaps the single most important thing you’ll do during an academic interview.” So you know that’s a lot of pressure. I mean a lot rides on this job talk and —

08:22 Emily: I just want to jump in there, because it’s a little bit almost counterintuitive to think that it would matter that much, right? If you can’t do this one thing, you are disqualified from this new position. Because maybe giving presentations is not going to be a huge part of that actual job. Maybe doing the research is what it is or maybe it’s teaching, which is a little bit different from a presentation kind of scenario. The one-on-one interviewing that you do over the course of the interview visit, all that stuff matters as well. And maybe why is the job talk important in particular? I mean, we’re not asking why, we’re just saying it is really, really important. It’s a little bit counterintuitive because maybe you’re not thinking that that’s a huge part of what you do. I mean, what percentage of your time do you actually spend presenting, as like a researcher or an academic? It’s pretty small ,yet a lot rides on those singular moments, right?

09:17 Echo: Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of it is…I don’t know how it was 10, 15 years ago, but we all know how much more competitive the job market is now. It’s an ultra competitive situation and it is one way where you can set yourself apart from other people who are also there or doing a job talk. So that is one reason I think it’s so important. But I’m sure it’s a complex combination of reasons too.

09:50 Emily: That was the obvious thing, right? You’ve got to nail the job talk, of course, and the skills that you teach are going to help the candidate do that. Outside of the job talk scenario, what are some other ways and other scenarios where effective presenting can really help your finances?

Situation #2: Networking

10:08 Echo: Networking is one of the ones that might surprise people, because it is a little more indirect. This is something that will help just about everyone. I know we were just talking about a job talk and an academic interview, which mostly applies to academic jobs, but in terms of nonacademic jobs, as well as academic jobs, your network is crucial. It’s crucial for getting opportunities, whether it’s for publications or projects or grants or jobs even — your network is really crucial at pretty much any stage of your career. So how do you network? There’s a lot of tips out there, there’s a lot of suggestions, and one way is through presentations. So how? If you think about it, conferences are actually an excellent opportunity for increasing your network, which I think a lot of people already know. I don’t think that’s new and surprising. What people might not think about is that if you have a visually engaging, effective presentation, one that is organized, one that is easy to follow, that people understand that doesn’t feel overwhelming, isn’t just all text, isn’t just bullet points, it doesn’t have word clouds, doesn’t have all the data, it’s an organized narrative — people will be more likely to come up to you and talk to you after your presentation and you’re going to stand out more. If you think about it, one hard part about networking is just making that introduction. When you want to meet someone new but you’re nervous, you don’t know how to break the ice, you don’t know what to say — if you have a presentation, you’ve given that to people. People can now come up to you and they know what they want to say — “your presentation was great, your slides were great, I loved your presentation” — and it breaks the ice and people have already connected with you because you presentation was great. It speeds all that up along and encourages ways to build your network.

12:17 Emily: I totally, totally agree with you. Obviously as someone who presents as part of my living, I agree with you that it’s, it’s a wonderful way to start networking. Another thing, a little bit to take a step back from maybe an individual presentation that you give, if you as a researcher, as a PhD, increase your confidence around presenting because you’ve learned how to create effective visuals, you’ve done some practicing of your actual delivery of presentation, wouldn’t you be more likely to put your name in to do this sort of thing more and more and more, if you build up your skills and you feel competent. It’s kind of a stereotype, but public speaking is people’s number one fear, right? It’s like the worst, most intimidating thing that you would possibly do. Many, many people think that. So instead of shrinking back from those opportunities, if you have confidence around that, especially if you’ve been trained in some capacity, then you can again, put yourself out there, put yourself forward, and be increasing your network, because you’re just having more and more of those opportunities, where maybe you wouldn’t, if you weren’t feeling so confident about it.

13:23 Echo: Absolutely. I’m really glad that you actually brought that up because I’ve really started all of this — my own personal training for effective presenting, because I was terrified of public speaking. I was scared. I was nervous. I would throw up before a presentation. I was really high on that anxiety scale. I started doing visual presentations and storytelling and academic presentations almost as a way to distract from myself and help myself just get up on the stage hoping people would look at my slides and not mean. Then, just over time people would compliment me and I would be surprised and not believe them at first, but then, over time, it really did build up my confidence and now I love it. Now I love public speaking and giving presentations because I know people are going to engage with it. It’s going to resonate with them, they’re going to be able to understand it and it goes really well.

14:23 Emily: Yeah, and this ties into the job talk part of it as well. If you’re feeling confident about giving that job talk, you’re going to come off that much better in the interview. Something I’ve also seen, and this is sort of regarding networking as well, in the past few years since I’ve been giving presentations at universities, I see people pull out their phones or their iPads and take photos of my screen. I’m assuming it’s usually for their own like future reference or something like that. But if you, and I’m not saying I do, but if one has really beautiful visuals up on that screen, that’s a sharing opportunity, in terms of social media. We’ve all seen, if you follow a conference on Twitter, people are posting images of slides from presentations and so forth, so if you have a particularly beautiful, engaging, clear, as you were saying earlier, slide, that’s something that could even expand that network beyond the people in the room.

15:18 Echo: That’s such a great idea. Yeah, that is so true. I definitely see people sharing slides from conferences they’re at all the time on Twitter and the ones that get a lot of engagement and excitement are definitely the ones I would say are more well-designed compared to the ones that are all text, small text, bullet points, that kind of thing.

15:38 Emily: Yeah. The text ones might be getting some photos in the room because they’re like, “Oh, I can’t read all of this and the amount of time it’s going to be up, I need this for future reference”, but the shareable ones are definitely going to be the more beautiful and clear ones.

Commercial

15:53 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money, but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series, as you make changes over the long term. You can find out more at PFforPhDs.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part coaching, part course, and part community. You can find out more and join the wait list for the next time I open the program at PFforPhDs.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Situation #3: Promotions

17:07 Emily: Okay, so what was the third way that effective presenting can affect one’s bottom line?

17:13 Echo: The other way was promotions. This works for academic context, but also nonacademic context. A lot of people think that, okay, so presentations are great for a job talk, itt helps me get the job, but once I have it, now it’s time to worry about tenure. And that is all about publications and that’s not a good time to learn how to present effectively. And yes, publications are important. I’m not trying to diminish that at all, but I think people don’t realize how presentations can help with the other part of the tenure package. So for example, I just had a student in one of my online courses, she’s an assistant professor. She just did her third year review letter, which she called, a mini tenure package and she wrote in there in her section about teaching effectiveness, she talked about the professional development that she took, how it helped her teach her undergrads and how she was evidenced based principles that she learned in my course for learning and memory and that kind of thing. And she had quotes from her student evaluations and her students even said things like “the PowerPoints were the best part of the class” — is a loose quote. But it was something like that where they said PowerPoint slides were the best part of this course. And so it can help you in that area. It can help you with maybe the broader impact, if you have to talk about that. It can help you with those other areas if you just frame it that way.

18:49 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this all again goes back to effective communication of which presenting and visuals and all of that are components of that. But just effective communication in general, of course that’s going to help you maintain the job you have, get promotions at the job that you’re in, not just in a new job scenario. Yeah. Great point. And again, I actually want to go back to the confidence aspect that we were talking about earlier because I’m thinking, okay, we’ve been talking a lot about landing a job, keeping a job, and that’s career-related, which is obviously within the scope of personal finance. But I’m also thinking about like negotiations. I don’t know if you’d necessarily be using visuals in a in a negotiation session with your potential supervisor or boss, or your existing one, b,ut again around the confidence, if you’re just building up your confidence in talking in front of people, in presenting a case to other people, that is an enormous asset to have with you when you go into a negotiation situation.

19:53 Echo: Yeah, and I would actually agree with that. Part of effective presenting, a lot of people are thinking probably about design, about typography and text and text size and colors and that kind of thing, which is definitely part of it. The other part is also the story-boarding, which is just the word I use to describe organizing your content, what order are you going to say things, what are you going to say, what level of detail. And learning that for presentations is a great place to start, but then it starts helping you just to make good arguments in other areas. I’ve heard this from my students that it even helped with things like grant applications because you learn how to set up your argument and maybe it’s not an argument, but you still learn how to hook the audience from the first thing that you say. So yeah, if you want to negotiate for a promotion or a raise, you’ll have more skills to do that in a more narrative, storytelling kind of way. A lot of academics were trained to do fact, fact, fact, like just a list of facts, just a data dump. And that’s not an effective way to communicate. That wouldn’t be an effective way to communicate for a promotion, probably. You would want to start with more of an engaging opening, so to speak.

21:23 Emily: Yeah. I’m really seeing how, I mean, we started talking about effective presenting, but how these skills that you’re talking about are permeating so many different areas of professional life.

21:35 Emily: Okay, I think we’ve made a good case. People care about the skill set, they want to get better at it. Really quickly, what are some tips that you have for people to do a better job in this area that they could implement right away?

Presentation Tips You Can Implement Today

21:52 Echo: Yeah. I think there’s some things that you’ve heard before so I won’t spend too much time on them. I’ll just reinforce them a little bit. Less text. Yes, even academics want less text on your slides and you want to use bigger font sizes. A lot of people they have too small font sizes. The other thing that I wanted to mention, because a lot of people feel like the problem is PowerPoint, and that they have to spend a lot of money on a fancy program like Prezi, or they have to take a lot of time to learn a new program. I have good news and the good news is that you don’t need to do that. PowerPoint is actually fantastic. You can absolutely make visually engaging presentations with PowerPoint or with Keynote. So if you’re an Apple user, Keynote is great as well. Google Slides is okay. It has fewer features, and most people have PowerPoint anyway. So PowerPoint is great. You can totally use PowerPoint.

22:53 Emily: Yeah. So it turns out the tool was not the problem, it’s our usage of the tool.

22:59 Echo: Exactly. And the other thing I wanted to mention was habits. You probably also know that you should be practicing your presentation and that you should be starting your presentation earlier than say, on the plane ride to the conference. I know —

23:16 Emily: You don’t say?

23:17 Echo: I know it happens, I’ve done it, so I totally get it, I’ve totally been there. But if you start earlier, it doesn’t have to be a lot of time, but if you start earlier and give yourself time in between revisions, you’ll be surprised at how much better your presentations turn out, because I think a lot of presentations are ineffective because people are cramming in it at the last second.

23:40 Emily: Yeah, it’s just something that hasn’t been thought through well yet.

23:44 Echo: Yeah, exactly.

Final Words of Advice

23:46 Emily: The final question that I like to ask everyone who comes on the podcast is what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be related to what we’ve been talking about today or it could be something totally different.

24:00 Echo: Yeah, I think, partly related to what we’re talking about is try to invest in yourself as soon as you can. Especially for something like effective communication skills, effective presentation skills, the earlier you can get in on some type of professional development, it’s going to pay off more in the long run. For example, if you learn it now, then you’re going to have those skills when it comes time to make your job talk presentation, you’re teaching demo. You’ll already know how to make good slides for that and a good presentation from start to finis,h rather than trying to do all of that at the last second. And the earlier you learn it, the sooner your presentations will be better and more effective, and then you can sort of continue to improve on that over time. That’s sort of a tip I wanted to share.

24:53 Emily: Yeah, totally, totally agree. And the thing is, the listener might be thinking, especially if they’re still in training, “I am investing in myself right now, I’m taking this huge pay cut to like be in grad school or be doing a postdoc, that is investing in myself.” But the unfortunate reality, as we mentioned earlier, is that a lot of essential skills for the workplace, and even for the job you have right now, are not being taught by universities or by advisers or by departments. Maybe they are in some pockets, I don’t want to say that’s a universal thing. Maybe you at your university have a course on public speaking. Maybe there’s something available to you, that’s awesome if you can take advantage of that. But probably most places it’s not available, or it’s not really a good time investment, maybe you have to put way too much time into it than what would be effective for you. So I totally agree that it’s oftentimes very necessary to go outside the university environment to pick up these skills. And the earlier you do it, of course, as you said, the more and more you can deploy those skills over the years and hone them and continue to develop them.

Find Dr. Echo Rivera Online

25:58 Emily: Speaking of which, Echo, how do people get them to get you to teach them some of these skills that we’ve been talking about?

26:06 Echo: Yeah, so I hope that I’ve excited people about learning presentation design and how to be an effective presenter because I have tons of stuff on my website. I have free courses, I have tons of blog posts, I have some download-ables in my blog posts, I have a YouTube channel. All of that you can find at echorivera.com so it’s just my name, Echo Rivera dot com. I’m also really active on social media. I’m on Twitter and Instagram and my handles are @echoechoR. Find me on social media, check out my website. I’d love to connect and I’m just kind of curious what people thought of this podcast and if they learned something new or just want to chat, so don’t hesitate to reach out.

26:59 Emily: Yeah, absolutely. When this episode comes out, I’ll be tweeting a bunch of times that week and tagging Echo and certainly reply to any of those and tell us like what you thought about this. Maybe this is a surprising thing for us to talk be talking about on a personal finance podcast, but as you can see, it plays into your finances in so many different ways and these skill sets are so essential. Echo, thank you so much for, for being my guest today.

27:24 Echo: Thanks so much for having me.

Outtro

27:26 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

Can and Should an International Student, Scholar, or Worker Invest in the US?

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In this episode, Emily interviews Hui-chin Chen, a Certified Financial Planner specializing in advising globally mobile professionals through her business, Pavlov Financial Planning. In the interview, Hui-chin answers the questions: Is it permissible for an international student, postdoc, or worker to invest while in the US, and if permissible, is it advisable? Hui-chin and Emily discuss several factors that could impact the answers to these questions: whether the person desires to stay in the US long-term, the type of visa they are on, what type of income they have (W-2 vs. fellowship/training grant), and whether they have access to a tax-advantaged retirement account, such as a 401(k), 403(b), or IRA. Listeners to this episode should come away with clear next steps to further evaluate whether and where to invest while living in the US.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

international investing in US

Teaser

00:00 Hui-chin: I would actually recommend the default is think about, well, if I had the extra money I can invest for the long term, I don’t really need the money — why not? So there has to be a really good reason why you don’t do it.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast for higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season 4 episode 17 and today my guest is Hui-chin Chen, a certified financial planner specializing in advising globally mobile professionals through her business, Pavlov Financial Planning. In this interview, Hui-chin answers the questions: Is it permissible for an international student, postdoc, or worker to invest while in the US and if permissible, is it advisable? We discussed several factors that could impact the answers to these questions. One, whether the person desires to stay in the US long-term. Two, the type of visa they’re on, F-1, J-1 or H-1B. Three, what type of income they have, that is W2 versus fellowship or training grant. And four, whether they have access to a tax advantage retirement account such as a 403B, 401k, or IRA. I’ve wanted to help the international graduate students in PhDs in my audience think through these questions and scenarios for a long time and I’m so grateful to Hui-chin for giving us her expertise in this area today. Please consider sharing this episode with your friends and peers. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Hui-chin Chen.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:42 Emily: I am so delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Hui-chin Chen. She is a CFP. Her business is Pavlov Financial Planning. She is an expert in this area of international students, postdocs, workers living in the US and what can we do investment wise? I know this is a question of high, high interest in my audience. I get this question every single seminar I deliver at universities. Can I invest in the us? Should I invest in the US. What kinds of accounts can I use? So Hui-chin is here to help us answer these questions as best we can. It’s a very complicated and detailed area, but you know, we’re going to work through it over the next 30 minutes or so. So Hui-chin, thank you so much for, for joining on the podcast and please tell us more about yourself and your business.

02:29 Hui-chin: Well, thank you for having me Emily and I think you covered like all the high levels. Like you said, I’m a CFP, a certified financial planner and I focus my work on clients and international planning needs, whether they’re immigrants to the US, people who are temporarily working in the US that migh leave or US citizens that become expats. So sort of like your listeners who are technically expats from other countries. So I deal with international complexities day in and day out for my clients, so I’m happy to answer any questions you might pose today.

03:05 Emily: Yeah, I mean I have been searching high and low for an expert, just like you. Will you please mention your blog name, your website name.

03:12 Hui-chin: Yes. You can read more about just in general financial planning topics for global and mobile people on moneymattersforglobetrotters.com and if you want to learn more about my business or working with me, it will be on pavlovfp.com.

03:29 Emily: Great. And you have a YouTube channel as well, right? What’s the name of that?

03:32 Hui-chin: Yes. Well there’s no name because I just record more like a series of different topics. The most recent one I recorded, I call it “Welcome to the USA: personal finance edition”. I think some of you might be interested or your spouses who accompan you to the US while you study or work and they may or may not be able to. So it goes through a lot of the different steps of understanding the US system that will be helpful if you eventually do want to stay in the US.

04:04 Emily: Yeah, perfect. Tell me just a little bit more about yourself — when did you arrive in the US, where are you from, why did you come here and those kinds of things.

04:12 Hui-chin: I first arrived full time in the US in 2004 for my graduate degree in public policy and management. I did consider going into a PhD, but I did not eventually and I basically stayed. Since then, I found a job in the US, I continued my work and then I met my husband in grad school, but after working separately for a few years, decided to get married and he got a job posting overseas in different countries. So I also have a very personal interest in working with people from all over the world because, for example, right now, I’m actually not physically in the US, we’re somewhere else. So.

Investing in the US as an International Student

04:58 Emily: Okay. Yeah. Fascinating. Oh my gosh. I really hope people follow up with you about this. So what we decided to do with this interview was to answer two broad questions, which are the ones that hear during seminars. The first is am I allowed to invest in the U S is this permissible? Secondly, is it advisable for me to invest in the U,S while I live here? Now the second question is a lot thornier than the first, I understand, so we’ll kind of go through a few different, aspects of this question that might affect the first question or the second.

Is it permissible? Yes!

05:33 Hui-chin: All right, so you’ll have to prompt me later for all these different questions. I’m going to answer the easiest one which is whether, as an international student who is not a US citizen or a green card holder, can I invest through a US based account? The answer is yes. And the United States is one of the few countries that’s very friendly to foreign investors investing directly in the stock markets and the US also has one of the largest stock markets. A lot of foreign companies come to list in the U S. dot. Markets. So really, even if you were not in the US, even if you were just like live in your home country and you want to open a US brokerage account, you can actually do it.

06:24 Hui-chin: It’s not only permissible, it’s actually a sometimes recommended way to invest, especially if your home country gives you very little access directly to investing equity on your own. A lot of countries don’t even have what we call retail access, like in the US. In a lot of places you have to invest through insurance contracts or very expensive mutual funds. So investing directly as a retail investor, that means that you’re as an individual, not going through an advisor, just like open your own account and start investing, it’s actually a great opportunity to do so. Now you’re in the US, it’s a lot easier. It’s easier for you to find information like that instead of doing it in your home country and tried to find those kinds of information. So that’s the long answer. But the short answer is it’s definitely permissible to do so. Right now you’re in the US and you can invest no matter what kind of income that you have. We’re talking about just a normal broker brokerage account, so it doesn’t give you any tax advantages. It’s just for somebody who wants to buy some ETFs or even just stocks. For example, if you really like Apple, you want to buy Apple stocks, you’re totally permissible to open a brokerage account online and pressures that Apple stocks with whatever money you have, either from your work in the US, from your grants, from your fellowships, or from your wealthy uncle back home who wired you some money. Those are all possible ways to invest.

Opening a Brokerage Account

08:06 Emily: So I think there may be, you can tell me if this is the case, I think there may be a distinction between something being permissible under the law and being, will I actually find a brokerage firm who will work with me? Because what I hear from international students and scholars is, and I never know if this is the rumor mill or if it’s actually their own experience is, “well it’s difficult to find a brokerage firm to approach who will work with me.” Is that the case? Is it, I can walk up to any brokerage firm and you know, as an international student or scholar or worker and open whatever. Or is it like, Oh well some of them might, by policy, be excluding certain types of people from you know, opening accounts.

08:51 Hui-chin: That’s a good question. Sort of at the practically, how does that work? So the first scenario is that if you have, for example, if you actually pay social security, now you have a social security number and you’re technically getting your income and you’re an employee of your university, then, for example, if you go onto Vanguard, that’s all the information they ask for. So at Vanguard, if you provide those two types of information, you will be able to open the account and plus you have a US address because you’re currently living in the US, so you actually do not need to already be a green card holder or something in order to have it processed through it. It doesn’t mean that if you eventually decide to leave the U S and if Vanguard finds out, they will want to close the account. So that’s one scenario.

09:43 Hui-chin: The other scenario is that I know some people because their totalization agreements, they don’t even have a social security number or they choose not to have one in the US and so in that case, even though you’re physically in the US and you have a US address through your apartment or on campus, it’s basically you’re considered a foreign, like how you file taxes as a nonresident alien, you can be a foreigner. So in that case, if you still have pretty close ties with your home country and you do decide to go back, you can actually open an account like your just a person living overseas, but in that case it is pretty much dependent on the brokerage company being willing to work with you because every brokerage company, like Schwab or Fidelity or TD Ameritrade, it’ll have their own internal list of which countries residents they were willing to do business with. So you’re basically declaring to them, I am a resident of some other country, would you would do business with me? And then they may or may not. So that’s another way to go about it.

10:59 Emily: Got it. So, okay, an international student or scholar who does not have an SSN, when they actually try to go and open a taxable brokerage account, what should they say to customer service? I’m a resident of X country, but I’m living in the US currently, will you work with me? Is that the question that they need to pose?

11:22 Hui-chin: Yeah, the question will really be, I’m a resident of another country, because if that’s the case, you’re providing an address of that country. You may be able to provide a us mailing address, but that’s not the address that’s associate with the account. So if they know that you are foreign customer, they will have different tax reporting, different tax withholding. Instead of filling out a W9, you fill out W8-BEN, all the different things, so it’s whether you want to be considered as a foreigner to the US institution or somebody who’s a US resident.

12:01 Emily: Got it. So in the case where someone does have an SSN, probably because they’ve been employed W2 employee for at least part of the time that they’re here, would you say that it’s totally fine to then present yourself as a US person? Even if you’re still technically a non resident alien for tax purposes, even though you have the SSN, but let’s say you’re a nonresident alien for tax purposes, is it okay to go ahead and use that SSN and be like, I’m a US person?

12:26 Hui-chin: Well, that’s the tricky part because you are still for tax purpose, like your dividend capital gains interest will be taxed differently. So you do need to report, you need to write a W8-BEN instead of W9. So I would just give an example on how easy it is to actually open an account. For example, on TD Ameritrade’s website they actually ask what kind of visa you have. So I’m just saying that usually in those kinds of applications, if you have a SSN, you have a US address, you have a US employer, it’s most likely those online retail brokerage account, they will allow you to open the account. But you also need to make sure that they know that for tax purposes you need to fill out a tax form as a non resident alien.

Investing during Short-term vs. Long-term Stays in the US

13:17 Emily: Got it. Okay. I think that’s very clear now. Than you so much for going through that in detail. Okay. So then let’s go back to the scenario of “I plan to stay in the US long term, or hope to, not sure if it’s gonna work out” versus “I don’t plan to stay in the US long term”. We now know what’s permissible, but then what is advisable? Should a person who hopes to stay in the US long-term, has the ability to invest right now — is there any reason for them to shy away from doing that because they’re not sure about the longterm status? Let’s start with that question.

13:50 Hui-chin: So like I mentioned, I guess, eluded to earlier, because the US is such an attractive market, not in terms of return or performance, but in terms of access, you can invest in a broad index in so many different countries, so many different companies with such little cost, and it’s really hard to beat if you tried to do it in some other country. Usually there’s more brokerage fees more commission, there are more hurdles to jump through as an individual investor. So I would actually recommend the default is think about well if I have the extra money I can invest for the long term, I don’t really need the money — why not? So there has to be a really good reason why you don’t do it upon the US perspective.

14:38 Emily: Got it. And so maybe that person in that situation is thinking, “well, is it a good reason that I might eventually leave?” How would the investments that are in the US for the moment, do they to exit the country with that person? If the person ends up leaving, how does that work and how’s that handled?

14:57 Hui-chin: Yeah. So as I mentioned earlier, even for somebody who’s never been to the US, some custodians will be willing to open account for a foreign customer. So if you’re thinking about, “Oh, I’m just leaving after I finished my grad degree in three years,” if the country you’re likely going to is on whatever list that custodian posts, like it’s European EU country or it’s a relatively developed country or it’s a safe country, it’s not like a terrorist country that may be on the treasury list of “do not do business with”, then you’re probably safe to assume that you can continue to hold the account. But of course do your own research on the specific countries. It’s impossible for me to go into every single country.

15:46 Emily: We’ll link to a reference if you can provide a reference of that treasury list. We’ll put that in the show notes and check to see if your country appears on this list, in that case, okay, we need to tread more carefully. But let’s say, okay the country is not on that list, go ahead.

16:04 Hui-chin: Yeah, so basically what will happen is that for example, if you went the first route when we’re talking about opening an account, you open account with the U S address and everything, and let’s say you actually end up staying over five years or you actually got a job at under H-1B then leave, right? So you actually went from nonresident alien for tax purpose to a US person tax role, and then you’re leaving, so you’re going back to a non resident alien textual. So you do need to report to the custodian that you’re leaving this is my W8-BEN, this my new address. So of course you want to make sure the custodian does business with people at that address. And there is some other complexity in terms of what you can invest in. Some people from the EU countries might know there are some new regulations saying that the custodian is not supposed to sell ETFs that’s not registered in the EU to their residents. So that’s one type of complexity that may come up that whatever you invested in, you may or may not be able to add more to it once you leave. But whatever you have already invested in, there shouldn’t be any issue with keeping it there, as long as the custodian is willing to keep you as a customer.

17:30 Emily: Got it. So let’s say then that the custodian is not willing to keep you as a customer, for whatever reason. What happens in that scenario?

17:39 Hui-chin: It does happen. Over the last 5 to 10 years, even some US citizens are experiencing that, living overseas, it used to be okay that custodians know that they live overseas and now they’re not okay and custodians say please close your account. For normal brokerage account, of course the first step was if you want to keep your investment in the US, you can always find a different custodian to move your investment to. You actually do not need to sell those investments. You can do a transfer. It’s just whoever’s holding those stocks will transfer the certificate electronically to another custodian. It’s not like you’re selling and getting the money back. But if because where you’re going next or because of personal reasons, after investing in the US for five years, you’re willing to take the money and leave, you can go ahead and sell your investments, close the account, taking the money and leave. There’s no problem with that. There’s also some tax considerations there. For people who are considered a nonresident alien, getting capital gains while they stay in the US for over 183 days versus they do not. Because if, for example, if there is a tax year when you have a US based account and you have a lot of capital gains on your Apple stock because it increases in value a lot, but if you already finish your study and you’ve moved back to your country for two years you’re just wondering, well, will I be taxed on the capital gains? The question is, you actually do not get taxed on the capital gains, in the US. There could be also tax treaties that differs between the US and your country, but in general, the rule is the US does not tax and your country may or may not tax that. So that’s actually a good–

19:34 Emily: It sounds like in that situation, where you’re planning on moving the money out of the US, it sounds like that’s the time to consult a tax advisor in the country that you’ve moved to, right? How to execute this, when to execute this and the tax implications. Is that right?

19:51 Hui-chin: Yeah. So you’re definitely thinking about tax strategy, because, as opposed to the situation I talked about, if you sell the day you leave the U S for example, like “I’m just closing everything down, I’m moving back home.” And if you sell the stocks as somebody who has lived in US, even though you’re a nonresident alien but you were in the US as a tax home, when you sell the stocks, the capital gain is actually taxed at 30%, unless their treaty dictates differently as well. Like you said. So definitely talk to your tax advisor in your home country, as well to understand how the tax coordination works.

Taxable vs. Tax-Advantaged Accounts

20:33 Emily: Got it. And now, you mentioned earlier that all of that was for a taxable brokerage account. So let’s also throw in the scenario that the person has been using a tax advantaged retirement account — IRA, 401k, 403B — and they’re not going to leave it in the US, they’re are going to be moving the money out, what are the tax implications of making a withdrawal from whichever account type.

20:56 Hui-chin: Yeah, in that scenario, basically first of all, you should know that there is a penalty that applies if you take money out of and IRA, 401K, 403B. You should have known it before you put money in, but that’s the same rule that applies broadly to everyone, whether you’re a US person or not. Right? Because the reason is that the government gave you a tax benefit and it’s the incentive for you to keep the money there for retirement. They don’t want you to take the money out. So, if you need the money obviously and you think closing the account, paying the penalty and income taxes is still better going back home and doing it in a few years because of the different tax situation, of course that’s something you can consider. But knowing, with a penalty if you are not not going to need the money and it is eventually going to pay for retirement, one thing you also can consider is to leave the account open for a very long time and let it grow. Of course, you cannot keep putting money into it, but whatever is in there can continue to grow and you can consider taking the money when your income is lower and take the penalty, so the income and the penalty together is less of a hit, or you can take it out when you are 59 and a half, which is the current law of when you can take it out and then there won’t be a penalty but there is going to be taxes in the US and withholding as well.

22:42 Emily: It sounds to me, and this may be painting with too broad of a brush, but it sounds to me like you know, if you end up having investments in the US, if you’re eligible to keep them in the US, and you do leave, sounds like it’s a good idea to keep the accounts open. You won’t be contributing anymore, at least to the tax advantage ones, but it doesn’t sound like there’s a big reason to be closing accounts and moving the money out, unless it is that you are not permitted to keep the accounts open based on the custodian and the rules of the country that you’re going to, and how they deal with the US, is that right? It sounds to me like that’s the pattern. Like go ahead and keep the money here and then when you’re of retirement age in the country that you’re residing and then you can work on doing the withdrawals and dealing with taxes at that time. Is that kind of broadly what you recommend?

23:32 Hui-chin: I think that’s generally correct. Like I said, the main reason for that is because the US is such a individual investor friendly country to allow you to invest that way, so like I said, I would ask the question of why not. Of course everybody’s situation is different. If there is a legit reason that you think that you shouldn’t be keeping the investment in US, of course, you just need to understand the tax implications. Otherwise, keeping investing long-term in the US, not just — let me clarify this, not investing in US companies only, but using a US based account and custodian, who charges you basically right now no commission to buy and sell anything and with very low mutual fund costs, very low ETF costs, it’s a really good bargain compared to the other alternatives.

24:34 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like whether an individual in the US, not on a green card yet, not sure if they’re gonna be able to stay long-term or planning to not stay long-term, if they have the ability to invest at the time that they’re living in the US, as you said, why not? Why not go ahead and open the taxable brokerage account or the IRA or the 401k or whatever it is and use it, because it’s sort of, as we know — we don’t have to go into about the power of compound interest — starting to invest earlier is fantastic. So basically don’t a waste or fritter away the time that you may be in the US, it might be longer than you expect. Go ahead and start investing and then deal with either moving the money out or keeping here or whatever later, once you know where exactly are you going to be living. I like that approach of why not. So whether the intention is to stay in the US long-term or to not, go ahead and use the time while you’re here. Use your access. Go ahead and open the accounts, again if you’re able to be able to invest.

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25:37 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money, but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series, as you make changes over the long term. You can find out more at PFforPhDs.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part coaching, part course, and part community. You can find out more and join the wait list for the next time I open the program at PFforPhDs.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Investing Under Different Visas

26:52 Emily: Okay. That was the first scenario to talk about. And then the second one was about visa types. So F-1, J-1 and H-1B. You’ve already said broadly it is permissible, but is it advisable? Are there any differences among people holding each one of those different visas that they should be thinking about? Or is it like, “no, the general consensus of it’s permissible, why not?” still applies no matter what visa type?

27:17 Hui-chin: I think that it’s not really only based on visa type, but the idea of combination of visa type, how long are you staying in the US — as, you know, F1 can turn from NRA to US person, J-1 as well, with different time frames. I would think about it as just, it’s very similar to what we were talking about before, like longterm or short term. Eventually, the main difference is tax treatment of if you’re staying, if you’re becoming a us person long-term, or even becoming a US citizen and we’re just going to pay US taxes forever versus at some point, in the future, it’s possible you will sever tax ties with the US, other than whatever investment you kept in the US. So overall investing in both scenarios are great. You just need to know the tax implication and the tax strategies, because if you’re switching from one to the other, there may be some opportunities for you to reduce taxes. And if you don’t think about it clearly or get the correct advice, you might find out, well I could have been taxed zero but now I’m getting taxed 30%.

28:28 Emily: Got it. So it’s not so much about the particular visa type, but rather at what point it flips to you being a resident alien for tax purposes, which is different on the different visa types. Okay, great! Quick one there.

Investing for Different Income Types

28:41 Emily: Third point that I wanted to talk about was the income type. So having W2 type income, or even self-employment type income, if that’s permissible, versus having this weird fellowship, training grant, non W2 type of income. This is very common for graduate students and also for postdocs. And so the general rule that certainly applies for US citizens and residents is if you have the W2 type of income that is taxable compensation for the purposes of contributing to an IRA. So let’s say in the scenario where the person does not have access to a workplace-based retirement account, they’re looking at can I open an IRA or not? Taxable compensation would be the W2 type of income. They can open an IRA and use that income towards it. If you go an entire calendar year and don’t have the W2 type of income, not taxable compensation, it’s all fellowship or training grant, and of course for international students, scholars, they’re not permitted to side hustle, they can’t have the second jobs and so forth, so there would be no possibility of having taxable compensation type of income. I guess the question is, whether they had access to an IRA or not, does it change the, we know it’s permissible, but does it change the advisable recommendation on whether to be investing at this time or not, knowing that in the one case with fellowship and training grant type income they wouldn’t be able to use an IRA but could be using a taxable brokerage account as we discussed earlier.

30:09 Hui-chin: I think that’s actually something we can just combine with the fourth one, so the tax-advantaged one. Like you said, eventually the main question is whether I have taxable compensation or I do not have taxable compensation.

30:23 Emily: Now, I want to jump in just to note that we’re recording this in November 2019 so the SECURE Act has not passed the Senate, yet. I am certainly hopeful that it will because what it does is it changes the definition of taxable compensation to include fellowship and training grant type of income, non-W2 income for graduate students and postdocs. So maybe when you’re listening to this, that law would have changed, and so certainly keep that in mind that we’re discussing this as what is the definition of taxable compensation. Basically, right now it does not include fellowship and training grant and come perhaps in the future it will, but right now it doesn’t. Okay, go ahead.

31:02 Hui-chin: I think at the very beginning you mentioned the whole connection to your personal service, right? So the idea of you can contribute to areas that you need to have taxable compensation and that’s related to the idea of it’s not just that it’s taxable, but it is a compensation for performing a service. If we’re just really thinking about why we’re using IRA, it is for the tax advantages. So even before you think about that, it’s like what would be the tax consequences or how much you save by using that kind of account and is that really helpful in your situation? I know, one question, you posed before is well, everybody wants a Roth IRA because they’re like, well, I’ll never get taxed in the future. I want to be able to contribute to that.” But a Roth IRA and traditional IRA have the same rule: the compensation needs to be taxable. So if it’s already not taxable, the government wouldn’t allow you to put money into something that’s never been taxed before. The Roth IRA is for the government to tax you up front, so it doesn’t tax you it in the future when you take it out.

32:26 Emily: Okay, let me, I just want to clarify this. This is a little bit new information to me. So when we have the two words, taxable and compensation, you have to have taxable compensation to contribute to an IRA. The compensation part of it is this, is it non-W2, fellowship and training grant type income? Okay, that’s not compensation. But now we’re also talking about the “taxable”, the first word there in taxable compensation. Your income has to be taxable in the US in the first place to be eligible to be contributed to an IRA. So maybe under certain tax treaties, your income for a time is not taxable in the US, that income would not be eligible to be contributed to an IRA. Correct?

33:05 Hui-chin: Yes.

33:06 Emily: Okay, great. Go ahead.

33:07 Hui-chin: Yeah, and the second one, we use compensation, but on the US-person side it’s called earned income. So if you look at IRS publications it’s always referred to earned income for US person related publications on contributing to IRA. Those two are equally important. It has to be earned income, so your compensation from service, and it’s taxable. The idea is that you will know whether you have that kind of income or not and if you have that income, meaning you’re getting tax in current year, so you’re thinking about, “Oh, if I contribute to an IRA or 401K, or 403B, I get taxed less. Or you contribute to it and now we get taxed, but in the future it won’t get taxed, which is the Roth side. In the first one, just the pretax contribution, it makes sense if you’re really high income. I think for the students, because if you’re on a 1040-NR, depending on the level of your compensation, because you may not have standard deduction, you may only have itemized deduction, some people can be at the zero percent, some people can be twelve percent or above, so you have to look at your tax situation of which bracket you’re going to be in to give you an idea of, well, maybe I want to do pretax instead. And the second one is, okay, so if I’m at a really low bracket, how about I just do Roths, but then the idea is you want the tax benefit in the future, right? But if you are going to move away from the US, how much more is that tax benefit versus simply using a taxable brokerage account, if you don’t get current year tax benefits. So those are the analysis that you need to go through, in terms of whether or not to use a tax advantage account, if you have the income type to do so.

35:20 Emily: Okay. Yeah. Let me see if I can summarize that. If you don’t have taxable compensation, can’t use a tax advantage account anyway, so go through the brokerage firm and go for the taxable brokerage account, if you’re able to use it, if you can set up that kind of cap. Okay. On the other side, we have eligibility for the 401K, the 403B, the IRA. If you want the tax deduction today for contributing to a traditional version of each of those accounts, great. Go ahead and take it and get a tax deduction today. Awesome. The money grows tax deferred, you’ll deal with the taxes in retirement or whenever you move the money out or whatever. For the Roth option, because of any of those kinds of accounts, because you don’t have the immediate tax advantage today, you really have to be asking yourself, does it make sense to put my money into a Roth IRA, no immediate tax advantage, but it will grow income tax free and then I can withdraw it income tax free in retirement versus can I just use a taxable brokerage firm, which is more flexible. And I think maybe the answer to that question, of course it will depend on the math in any individual’s scenario, but might come down to, again, what we talked about earlier, the expectation of staying in the US long-term or the hope, because really over the long, long term it is very advantageous to be using an IRA of any kind, Roth or traditional. But maybe if the time that you see yourself being in the US is on the shorter side, not to retirement or only five years or the length of your degree, then maybe it’s like, well why bother with the whole Roth IRA scenario? Let’s just go for the taxable brokerage account because if you are expecting to move the money out, for example, it’s kind of more of a pain to do so with a Roth IRA, because while you can withdraw your contributions, whatever gains have been in the account, if you try to withdraw those, then then the penalty comes into play. Is that correct?

37:12 Hui-chin: Yeah. And one big difference for people who eventually just move away from US and no ties in the US, I think I mentioned that before, you could qualify for 0% capital gains tax rate if you sell it, so it’s almost like the same, but the only difference is the dividend. So dividends are taxed at a flat 30% if your a NRA living outside of the US, but over the long term, if you’re investing in, for example tech companies, they don’t pay dividends anyway, and your main goal is for that capital gain growth for the next 30 years, then investing in Roth and investing in a taxable brokerage as an NRA living somewhere else is the same.

37:53 Emily: Gotcha.

37:53 Hui-chin: Why give yourself more ties to a Roth type account you can’t access and there’s more complexity.

38:01 Emily: I see. So really your investing strategy might change based on the tax treatment, if you’re no longer living in the US, of capital gains versus dividends. I actually do want to also add in for people who, I think this is still the case under post-tax custom jobs act, people who are the 12% marginal tax bracket or less, they have 0% federal tax on long-term capital gains and qualified dividends. So if you have a very tax efficient strategy, if you’re buying and holding, generally, as long as you stay in those lower tax brackets, you’re really going to see much or any income tax anyway. So why bother with the IRA, when you could be using a taxable account and not really having that much in the way of actual tax burden. Is that correct?

38:47 Hui-chin: Yeah. And just going back to definitely understand the tax treaty if you already know where you’re going to. Of course, most of the time you might think, well I’m just moving back to my home country, but then you get a job somewhere else and then you know, your life is not really as predictable, but at least understand the tax treaty between us and your home country, if you think it’s very likely you might end up there at retirement age when there would be IRA, 401k distribution consequences and compare that to, if I simply use a taxable brokerage, how does that change my dual country tax liability.

39:31 Emily: Got it. I think what I’m hearing mostly from this interview and the point that you just made about life being sort of unpredictable is, okay, here’s what you know. You know you’re in the U S right now. You have to be in the US for a few years, several years, maybe longer. Deal with what you know about right now, make the best decision you can for right now, and then if the situation changes later, you have to pivot. It’s possible to pivot. You’re not going to be losing your investments just because you’re leaving the country or whatever. It’s something that you can move with you, so you can adapt and change depending on, you know, the next step that you take. And hey, if you end up, if you do end up living in the US long-term, like until retirement age, it will be awesome if you started investing earlier and had started using an IRA or a 403B or a 401K earlier, as soon as you have access. Is that fair?

40:22 Hui-chin: Yeah. And I think those more specific questions and people questioning whether they should have account here. I think in my experience, I really mostly hear it from people from EU countries, Australia, Canada, because they feel like they have the same access when they move back. They don’t want the complexity of dealing with cross border things. And I totally understand that. And if you have good access to invest when you go back home, of course. But I think, what I know is being from a developing country myself is that most of the people who come to US see it as an opportunity and if you can have an investment in the US and don’t have to deal with turmoil that may be happening in your home country, most people jump on the opportunity. I don’t know that many people would say it’s a bad idea to open an account in the US.

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Where to Find More Information

41:26 Emily: Got it. I think we’ll leave it there. This has been fantastic. Thank you so much for joining me. Tell us again where people, can find you — your website, your business name and so forth.

41:35 Hui-chin: Yeah, sure. If you want to read more about what I just talked about, and this also how Emily found me, is on moneymattersforglobetrotters.com. It’s just a blog for reading. And if you’re interested in working with me, you can go directly to pavlovfp.com. That’s Pavlov Financial Planning.

41:54 Emily: Thank you so much for joining me today Hui-chin.

41:57 Hui-chin: You’re welcome.

41:58 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

This Behavioral Finance Expert Gives Incredible Career and Financial Advice to PhDs

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Daniel Crosby, an author and expert in behavioral finance. Upon completing his PhD in clinical psychology, Daniel realized for the first time that an academic salary would not afford him the lifestyle he wanted. He instead pivoted to translating the academic research in behavioral finance for working financial advisors, and he currently serves as the Chief Behavioral Officer for Brinker Capital. Daniel shares how he’s applied the principles of behavioral finance in his own life and specific career and financial advice for early-career PhDs, particularly those exiting PhD training.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

PhD behavioral finance

Teaser

00:00 Daniel: And rather than saying, “Oh, I’m a PhD in psychology, so let me do PhD in psychology things”, I thought, well, I know to have great conversations with people. I know how to run a training. I know how to read human emotion and human behavior and all of these things, when you conceive of them as building blocks, you can repurpose those building blocks in different ways and create a host of opportunities for yourself.

Introduction

00:34 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode eleven and today my guest is Dr. Daniel Crosby, an author and expert in behavioral finance. Upon completing his PhD in clinical psychology, Daniel realized, for the first time, that an academic salary would not afford him the lifestyle he wanted, so he pivoted to translating the academic research in payroll finance for working financial advisors. Daniel shares how he’s applied the principles of behavioral finance in his own life and gives specific career and financial advice and encouragement for early career PhDs, particularly those about to finish their PhD training. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Daniel Crosby.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:23 Emily: I have the pleasure today of hosting Dr. Daniel Crosby on the podcast. He is a certified expert in behavioral finance. I’m really, really pleased that he agreed to come on. And Daniel, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further and tell the listeners about the fantastic career you’ve had?

01:41 Daniel: Great to be here. Thank you for having me. I am the chief behavioral officer at Brinker Capital, which is a multibillion dollar asset manager based outside of Philly. There’s not many chief behavioral officers in the world, I guess, so by way of explanation, what I do is I create training, tools, and technology that help people make better decisions with their money. I am a clinical psychologist by education, but really haven’t spent any of my professional career in a clinical setting. I quickly learned in grad school that I loved thinking deeply about why people do the things they do, but I didn’t love working in a medical setting. I’ve looked for business applications of the thing that I studied, and I know you know what it’s like to pivot, so my career has been wild and crazy, but it’s been a great one.

Going from Psychology PhD to Chief Behavioral Officer

02:39 Emily: Can you take us back? Tell us more about your education and at what point you decided that you weren’t actually going to go that traditional, clinical route with your degrees?

02:50 Daniel: My undergrad was in psychology. Loved it. I’m the son of a financial advisor, so I went into school thinking I would study finance and be a financial advisor. Took some general ed courses in psychology and just absolutely fell in love, knew that that’s what I wanted to do, started my PhD three days after I finished my bachelor’s. I was really just on a good path to get going with this. But about three years into my doctoral program, I had just kind of had enough. I don’t think I’m wired to listen to 40 hours a week of heavy stuff. It’s hard to be that empathetic. It’s hard to not let that bleed into your own life and your own wellness, and I was just really taking my client’s problems home with me, candidly. And I said, you know, this is just a lot. The final nail in the coffin for me though, I was still sort of on the fence as I was wrapping up my PhD, I had an inkling that I would like to apply this in a business setting, but wasn’t quite sure how, so I interviewed for a dual appointment position at a local university, which would have been half teaching, half counseling and the pay was so bad. I got offered the job and the pay was just so ridiculously bad that when I sat down and did the math with my wife, I was just, there’s no way this can work. I think it’s instructive that I, as the son of a financial advisor, someone who is interested in finance, finished an entire PhD, kind of never doing the math on how the thing I was studying would put food on my table. That’s sort of an embarrassing, but true story, is to get to the end of this road that I was passionate about and then go, “Oh, well geez, what am I going to do with this?” So then I was sort of left scrambling with how can I actually make a living at this thing I’ve just spent eight years studying.

05:05 Emily: I think that’s going to be a very relatable story to a lot of people in the audience of hearing that advice, follow your passion and doing it, and doing it at a high level, and getting to the end of it and saying, “well, now what do I do?” In your case, it was because the dual position that you applied for was not attractive, financially. That could be the reason, certainly for people in the audience, why they don’t continue on the expected career path. But for many people who want to go into academia, it’s just that the jobs aren’t there. That’s the main problem is that there’s just no jobs to be had or very, very few, and so they end up having to look elsewhere. So super, super relatable story there. Would you mind me asking, was your graduate degree, did you go into debt for that or was that paid for, was it a combination?

05:52 Daniel: It was paid for. PhD programs in psychology are very selective, they’re very small, so there were only like five people in my cohort. If you get in, it’s paid for through assistantships. Then, through nothing but luck, I had parents who were in a position to support me in other ways. My parents kept the food on the table and a roof over my head, and the tuition itself was paid for, so I came out with no debt.

06:26 Emily: I see. So when you were sitting down to do that salary calculation, it wasn’t debt that was necessarily causing your initial needed number to rise, but rather just simply the cost of living and supporting your family and so forth.

06:39 Daniel: Yeah. It wasn’t debt. It was just like, “wow, I’m going to work forever.” It was crazy because it paid less than a kindergarten teacher. You go teach at a high level, at a college, go to all this school and you should have just taught first grade. The pay was much better, if you can believe it, and I think you probably can. That was just a shock to me. I had never really put pen to paper about how the jobs that were available to me would coincide with the kind of life I wanted to live. Then the other thing is, as you said, so many of the jobs — I was lucky to get a job offer in my hometown — but you know, many, many times you’re forced to move to someplace you don’t want to live or somewhere very out of the way to start your career. And that’s its own set of trade-offs, certainly.

07:34 Emily: When you decided, “okay, that’s not a viable route over there, I have to pivot and do something else,” ten or so years later, you’ve come to this point where you’re the chief behavioral officer somewhere.

What is Behavior Finance?

Emily: I want to hear more about what behavioral finance is and did that exist as a field when you came out or have you been part of developing that? What’s been the transition both for your career and also for that field over that time?

08:00 Daniel: Great question. I got out and I said, “look, I need to pivot to something that is a little better for my sanity and is also a little better paying.” I began to explore jobs in organizational behavior, organizational psychology, behavioral economics, behavioral finance, and really, no one would take a chance on me because this is 2008 and the economy’s not exactly fantastic. I’m out there, 29 years old looking, looking for a job and I’m applying for jobs in fields where I candidly have no experience, because I have this PhD in clinical psychology and they go, “well, this is, you know, industrial psychology or organizational psychology.” And so I got a lot of doors slammed in my face. And really it was just luck. I applied at an organizational behavior firm where the boss, the founder of this firm had a clinical background and had sort of made his way in the world. My story resonated with him and he saw enough potential there to take a chance. Again, I think anyone who has any modicum of career success can point to times in their career where they just got lucky. That was certainly one for me, where he saw himself in me, took a chance on me and knew what it was like to be in my position, because I just wasn’t getting a look at most places because I didn’t have the right sort of psychology background.

09:47 Daniel: In terms of the field of behavioral finance, behavioral finance is just sort of the study of finance that incorporates the messiness of human beings. A lot of standard financial and econometric models are based on simplifications of human behavior that make humans look more rational than they really are. Behavioral finance is just finance with human irrationality factored in and talking about the way that we make quirky decisions with our money. This was a field that was around. Not too many years later they gave out a couple of Nobel prizes for it. The good thing for me, sort of the niche that I found, was there were people out there charging $200,000 an appearance. These Nobel prize winning folks were out there charging a $100,000 to $200,000 every time they gave a speech and multimillion dollar contracts for consulting, but there was no one that was more affordable and there was no one that was more applied. There just weren’t many people doing more reasonable applied behavioral finance work and taking these great ideas that these folks had come up with and taking them out of the ivory tower and putting them on the desks of everyday people or everyday financial advisers. That’s sort of where my niche — my niche became being the more affordable, more practical options.

11:23 Emily: But it sounds like what you were doing was really taking academic research and translating into what can be then used on the ground by, as you said, advisors and perhaps other people, is that right?

11:35 Daniel: Yeah, that’s right. I mean that’s been sort of the trajectory of my whole career is as an intermediary between people who are much smarter than me and people who haven’t been exposed to these ideas. I sort of view myself as a translator to take these ideas, this research, and make it speak to the lives of everyday people.

11:57 Emily: This actually reminds me, from what you were saying, of my physics training, which is what I did my undergraduate degree in, where you basically assume that everything is a sphere, so the calculations are actually manageable because if you actually look at what things are, real shapes and so forth, it’s just the math is completely beyond what’s possible. Of course, not everything is a sphere, but you have to assume they are to make the math work. It reminds me of that.

12:23 Emily: I am curious if anything in your personal history — going through the PhD process and then, and then coming out as an early career PhD, and this job search and so forth — has any of that informed the work that you’re doing now within behavioral finance? Any of that personal stuff informing that?

12:41 Daniel: I don’t think so, really. I don’t think that really informs a ton of what I do from day to day. It probably informs my parenting more than my work. I have three young children and my wife and I talked, that as we raise them, I’m just trying to give them a more expansive look at the world of work and maybe a more detailed look at finding the sweet spot between following your passion and doing work that gives you the kind of life that you want. Because one thing that my studies have shown me is that we all measure what normal is on a relative basis. This is true of everything from mental health to wealth. Normal for you is financially is just kind of what you grew up with, so I think you need to be candid with your children about how they grew up and what normal is and what normal isn’t. So yeah, it probably impacts the way that I parent more than more than anything else.

13:51 Emily: Gotcha. What about the reverse ways, from taking what you’ve been learning about personal finance and behavioral finance since you pivoted into that field? Have you taken any of what you learned and applied it in your personal life or were you already kinda there with what you grew up with your particular parents?

14:09 Daniel: Yeah. What’s interesting is I have applied a lot of what I’ve learned from behavioral finance into my own life. But one of the primary ways that I’ve done this is by knowing what I don’t know. I remember, and I think every PhD has this experience, I remember I started my program when I was 23 years old. I start this PhD in psychology, 23 years old, thinking I know everything, get out a couple of years later and I’m like, did I learn anything? I feel like I know less than I did before. I think I have more questions than answers now. Especially when what you’re studying is something as hard to get your arms around as human behavior, you never quite get good at it. One of the primary things that I’ve learned from my years of study of finance is that nobody really knows anything and that knowledge is a weak predictor of behavior. I work with a financial advisor myself. And not to toot my own horn here, but I think when it comes to knowledge of markets and things, I probably know more than my advisor, but that’s not why I pay him. I pay him to keep me out of my own way. I pay him to be a barrier between me and the sort of bad behaviors I study because I know that simple knowledge of the sort of biased, irrational poor behavior that I study is a weak predictor of doing the opposite. I know I’m no better than the next person, no matter how many books I write on the subject. I take pains to diversify, to keep my fees low and to work with someone who will keep me out of my own way.

16:01 Emily: Yeah. I think this is something that’s maybe not well understood by the public. That you may be paying an advisor for expertise — you are not necessarily, but someone else may be — but an even more important role is, as you just said, to kind of talk you off the ledge from carrying out bad behaviors that you’re inclined to do as any human naturally would. You’re specifically talking right now within the realm of investing, is that right? Or does your advisor help you with other decisions as well?

16:31 Daniel: He does help me with things around, you know, the purchase of a home. He’s sort of a sounding board for things like college savings for my kids, the purchase of a home. But I’m primarily focused on investing and investing professionally is my primary focus.

Commercial

16:53 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money, but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series, as you make changes over the long term. You can find out more at PFforPhDs.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part coaching, part course, and part community. You can find out more and join the wait list for the next time I open the program at PFforPhDs.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Human Emotions and Financial Decisions

18:08 Emily: Is there anything else that you have learned, and then applied in your own life, aside from putting a bit of distance between yourself and being able to make a fast decision?

18:18 Daniel: Well, one of the hallmarks of behavioral finances talks about overcoming emotion. A lot of what we talk about is how do we keep people from making these emotionally laden decisions, but one of the other things you learn when you’re studying human behavior is that it’s always easier to roll with a behavioral tendency than to push against it. There’s cool research that shows that people who look at a picture of their children for five seconds before making a financial decision save more, are more likely to stay the course, et cetera. Similarly, we find that people who invest in ways that are aligned with their own personal preferences around the world that they want, in terms of social issues, environmental issues, tend to be better behaved. So I’ve tried to build some emotion into my process. I’ve tried to keep the things and the people that I love at the front of my mind and central in the planning and investing process, and I’ve tried to invest in a way that’s consistent with my values, because I think that it makes it a little stickier than say owning the S&P 500. It just personalizes it a bit. I think that those are both powerful ways to make investing a little more fun, to make the investing and planning process a little more personal and to bring about some good behavior in the end as well.

19:51 Emily: I really love those suggestions. I think I’ve also, maybe in the similar vein of looking at a picture of your children, I’ve heard that if you look at a picture of yourself aged up, you make different decisions. Is that right?

20:04 Daniel: That is right. Yeah. One of the things you learn a lot about in behavioral finance is salience and salience is just the ease with which you can sort of imagine or tap into a situation. As I sit here, I’ll be 40 next week, so as I sit here at nearly 40 years of age, it’s hard for me to imagine 80 year old Daniel, right? The idea of a guy who walks with a cane and has gray hair and stuff, it feels a little remote. People have found that if you age your face, you’re basically making it a more visceral experience to imagine yourself as this 80 year old version of yourself, it brings about better behavior. Again, that’s an imperfect example of how you imbue the process with a little emotion to help you make the right decision.

20:56 Emily: I actually had a client asked me recently what I thought about the particular RoboAdvisor Ellevest and she followed that up with, well, I’m really passionate about women and empowering women and all these things that were sort of in line with Ellevest’s mission. And I said to her, well, it sounds like you’re really excited about that, so I think they’re fine and go for it. Because, as you were saying earlier, if it it lines with her values, that particular manner of investing, she’ll probably be more likely to throw more money at it, engage with it more, and have a better outcome. Is that right?

21:27 Daniel: Yeah, that is. Without speaking to the particulars of Ellevest, I don’t know all the ins and outs of it enough to say one way or the other, I have a lot of respect for Sallie Krawcheck who heads up a Ellevest. But in general, you’re more likely to contribute to, and stay the course in your women’s leadership fund than you are your S&P 500 fund because it’s personalized, it’s tailored to you and your values and, not making any promises here, but there is also research to suggest that the kind of companies folks like Ellevest seek out, companies that have better female representation on boards and things, there’s historical research to suggest that those companies have outperformed the broad market, at least historically. I think there’s every reason to try and personalize your investing to your own preferences, feel like you’re doing a little good in the world, and if that helps to animate you to stay the course or to set aside a little money, both of which are very psychologically difficult, more power.

Behavioral Finance Strategies for the PhD

22:35 Emily: Absolutely. Yeah. Another question here. We’ve started to get some insights into this behavioral finance stuff, maybe for the general population, but I’m wondering if you see that there are any personal finance pitfalls that you think PhDs might be particularly susceptible to falling into, and then what strategies might there be to not do that?

22:59 Daniel: I’ve observed — I’ll speak to psychologists, doctors of psychology in particular, but I think that this probably applies to PhDs broadly — a lot of times we get a PhD because we want deep domain-specific knowledge, right? We get into this because we love it. We want to be the best in the world at it, but almost every position needs a bit of business savvy, and I think that we have more power than we realize. I think this power takes a couple of forms. I think first of all, you need the power to negotiate a salary. That first job you get is more predictive of your ultimate wealth than just about anything else, because it benchmarks every subsequent salary conversation. Being comfortable negotiating that first salary — I remember that first job, you feel lucky just to be there. You beat out 20 other talented people to get the offer, but don’t be afraid to know your worth and to negotiate that salary. I would say PhDs need a little business training, because we have this deep domain-specific knowledge, but we don’t know, sometimes I feel like, how to do more practical things. I think get a little bit of business knowledge.

Daniel: Then a third thing and I would say the thing that has probably served me best in my career, financially, is to just think creatively about your role. If I had stayed on the prescribed path of being a dual-appointed college counselor, I would make a fraction of what I make now. Because I thought expansively about the things that I learned in school, and rather than saying, “Oh, I’m a PhD in psychology, so let me do PhD in psychology things” I thought, well, I know to have great conversations with people. I know how to run a training. I know how to read human emotion and human behavior and all of these things, when you conceive of them as building blocks, you can repurpose those building blocks in different ways and create a host of opportunities for yourself. Rather than thinking about one prescribed path, think about your education as a series of building blocks, a series of competencies that you can repurpose in any number of ways to do a host of different things. Finally, I would say don’t be scared to get out of academia. Because when I was in academia, you’re a face in the crowd, you’re one PhD among many. But when you get out in the real world, when you get out in the business world, you’re special and people respect your expertise in a way that they might not necessarily in a university setting. Lots to be said for a university setting of course, but I think don’t be scared to get out there to try something new and to know your worth.

Dealing With an Income Increase Post-PhD

26:20 Emily: Such wonderful advice and you put that so well. Thank you. I’m wondering if you have any advice for a person in this situation, which is something that you went through, which is a person who is about to come on a large income increase? They’ve been in training, grad school, postdoc, whatever it might be, and now they’re going out there and doubling or tripling, or more, their salary, potentially in industry, or similar. What behavioral finance concept should that person know about and be applying in that situation?

26:50 Daniel: This is a great question. The concept to know here is what’s called the hedonic treadmill, which says that, as our earning increases, our consumption or spending tends to increase in ways that are commensurate with the increase in earning. And then you never feel richer. You never feel better off because your lifestyle has risen as fast as your income. My number one piece of advice here would be to not let your lifestyle rise faster than your income and to make sure that as your income increases, so does the amount you’re setting aside, because lifestyle creep is a really, really big problem. What’s fascinating is, and I’ve been certainly bitten by some of this and haven’t followed my own advice here in certain instances, but the things that seem so extraordinary to you — I think about my house; when we bought this house it was the most beautiful house I had ever seen and soon it’s just where you throw your dirty socks — it just quickly becomes the backdrop against which you live your life. So really watch out for lifestyle creep. Make sure that if your income increases 50%, that your spending only increases 25%. Have a little fun, but make sure that they don’t increase in lockstep because that’s not where happiness is.

28:26 Emily: Yeah. I guess, I think I would add onto that — you put it very well about how the hedonic treadmill operates — I think that for some PhDs, when they get out of training and they finally have that larger salary, there’s some pent up demand. There’s some pent up wanting to spend behavior because they have been on this constrained income for so long. My advice to that person, in addition to what you said, would be to splurge on something that’s a one time expense, like a grand vacation or something, and not upgrade your housing this high degree, not upgrade your transportation to a high degree, not upgrade those fixed or recurring expenses in your life, but rather have this one wonderful, pleasurable experience and then get back to a lifestyle that is, as you were saying, far below what you could actually “afford” with your new salary, just so you aren’t stuck on that treadmill over the long term.

29:15 Daniel: I love that advice and I think it’s also consistent with understanding how you can spend money in ways that make you happy. When you look at the research on how to spend in ways that makes you happy, giving money away makes us happy, spending on experiences makes us happy and spending on getting rid of stuff we hate doing makes us happy. Having someone mow your lawn for example, makes happy. Buying time, buying experiences, and giving for goodwill — these are the things that make us happy. Don’t go buy a fancy car. Don’t go buy a big house that’s going to lock you into this recurring expense trap and it’s not even going to make you feel any better. It’s a trap.

Last Words of Advice and Where to Find Dr. Daniel Crosby Online

30:01 Emily: It’s great insight. Thank you. Do you have any final pieces of advice? We’ve already heard so much, but anything more for that early career PhD in terms of personal finance or behavioral finance advice?

30:11 Daniel: Again, just really to know your worth. I felt like when I broke out of my swim lane and got out of the cattle call that was sort of herding me towards this very prescribed life and once I sort of broke out and got into the world, I found that people had a lot more enthusiasm and respect for my ideas than they might have in a more constrained academic setting. So know your worth, don’t be afraid to ask for what you’re worth and go get ’em.

30:46 Emily: Wonderful. And if listeners want to follow up more with you, want to learn more from you, read your books, listen to you, where should they go?

30:54 Daniel: Yeah, I’d encourage folks to check out my books. The Laws of Wealth* is probably the place to start, The Behavioral Investor* is next. I’m super active on LinkedIn and Twitter, @danielcrosby.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

31:07 Emily: Thank you so much, Daniel, for this interview.

31:10 Daniel: My pleasure.

Outtro

31:11 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Achive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

The Graduate Student Savings Act Fixes a Major Flaw in Tax-Advantaged Retirement Accounts

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In this episode, Emily interviews Abigail Dove, a PhD student at Johns Hopkins. Abby spent last summer as a science policy fellow at the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology (FASEB). Her major policy accomplishment during her internship was to secure FASEB’s endorsement of the Graduate Student Savings Act of 2019 (GSSA), a bill that has been proposed in both chambers of Congress. Graduate students and postdocs are not currently permitted to contribute their non-W-2 income, which typically comes from fellowships and training grants, to Individual Retirement Arrangements (IRAs). The GSSA would allow this type of income to be contributed and have a very beneficial effect on the PhD trainee workforce. Abby explains her role in shepherding the GSSA endorsement through FASEB, what the GSSA would do for graduate students and postdocs, and how the GSSA relates to the SECURE Act, another bill that has passed the House and is before the Senate.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

SECURE Act fellowship income

Teaser

00:00 Abigail: But it was a little tricky for FASEB to first navigate the waters. They’ve never supported a tax legislation before. You think that experimental biology doesn’t have that much to do with legislation on tax. But here was a perfect one for them to start.

Introduction

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode nine and today my guest is Abigail Dove, a PhD student at Johns Hopkins and recent science policy fellow at FASEB, the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology. Abby’s major policy accomplishment during her summer at FASEB was to secure FASEB’s endorsement of the Graduate Student Savings Act of 2019, or GSSA, a bill that has been proposed in both chambers of Congress. Graduate students and postdocs are not currently permitted to contribute their non-W2 income, which typically comes from fellowships and training grants to individual retirement arrangements or IRAs. The GSSA would fix that problem and have a very beneficial effect on the PhD trainee workforce. Abby explains her role in shepherding the GSSA endorsement through FASEB, what the GSSA would do for graduate students and post docs, and how the GSSA relates to the Secure Act, another bill that as of this recording has passed the House and is before the Senate. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Abigail Dove.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:33 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Abigail Dove, and she is a PhD student who completed an internship at FASEB last summer. And she has a lot to tell us about the Graduate Student Savings Act. So if you have been wondering about your IRA and why you can or cannot contribute to it, that’s what we’re going to be discussing in today’s episode. Abby, thank you so much for joining me today and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

01:59 Abigail: Sure. Thanks for having me. My name is Abigail Dove. Currently, I’m a PhD student at Johns Hopkins and I just started my sixth year. I work in fruit flies and study the gonad development. A little bit of my background: I first started as an undergraduate at Bard college, a small liberal arts school in upstate New York. And then I did a postbac for two years at the NIH NIDDK (National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases) before starting at Hopkins. What we’re talking about is kind of the work that I did at my internship at FASEB, which is the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, which I guess to be a little more descriptive it’s a society that represents 29 member societies, which has about 150,000 scientists that they represent.

Tell Us More About Your FASEB Internship

02:57 Emily: Excellent. You and I have common that we both did a postbac at the NIH. In fact, I’ve interviewed several other people on the podcast who have that on their resumes as well. So very popular program. Anyone still in college considering going for a PhD in biomedical sciences or related areas should definitely consider the NIH postbac program. It’s amazing. Okay. So you had this internship at FASEB last summer. What exactly were you doing in that role? Because it’s a little bit unusual for a graduate student to have an internship. And I think especially a graduate student in the biological sciences because, I don’t know about you, but I sort of observe the culture as like, “ah, you need to stay at the bench 120% of your time and never do anything away from the bench.” So please tell us a little bit more about what you were doing in that internship.

03:40 Abigail: Yeah, so I was really fortunate. I have a PI that–we both know that I’m interested in a career that is outside of the academic track. So, I did a lot of science outreach and I knew that I like communicating science to the public. So I wanted to pursue this career of science policy as a way to talk to the public about science and its importance. So what I did at FASEB, I had a lot of responsibilities. I was particularly interested in training and workforce policy. So, policy that relates to students, postdocs, and even faculty as it’s something that everyone can relate to. So that was one of the reasons that I was most interested in it. And I did a wide range of things. I hosted a webinar on work-life balance and the lab culture and we can include a link to that if anyone wants to watch it later. I represented FASEB on Capitol Hill and at the NIH for different events and I generated comments on sexual harassment that will soon be sent to the NIH. I also helped organize an online symposium series for the FASEB Science Policy Committee on challenges facing women throughout their career lifetime. And then I compiled minutes for the meetings, I drafted talking points for committee members, and then the big thing that I did was I spearheaded FASEB’s endorsement of the Graduate Student Savings Act.

How to Land a Science Policy Internship

05:13 Emily: Excellent. And we’ll get a lot more into that in a moment. But that sounds like a really exciting internship. It’s absolutely fabulous that your PI was supportive in you completing that. I actually did a science policy internship as well. The Mirzayan Policy Fellowship out of the national academies. That was actually after I finished graduate school. But it’s available to current graduate students as well. So, if what Abby was describing sounds amazing to you, that’s another potential avenue for you to get that kind of experience in science policy. Okay. So how did you actually land this internship if other people are interested in doing something similar?

05:46 Abigail: Yeah, so I first started–we have an office at Hopkins, it’s called the Biomedical Careers Initiative Office. And it’s really great for people that are looking for careers outside of the academic track. They were offering a course on science policy and advocacy that was actually being taught by the Director of Public Affairs at FASEB, Jennifer Zeitzer, and the Director of Science Policy, Dr. Yvette Seger. So the class gave us a background on legislation and how bills get enacted into law. And we did some case studies on different issues in science policy. They also taught us how to be a science advocate. But finally, we had to write a policy memo on an opportunity or challenge in research activities supported by federal funding, and we had to give an elevator pitch on that to the class as well. And I did mine on saving for retirement as a graduate student and a postdoc.

06:48 Emily: Yeah. Excellent. And so was it through that paper and that pitch that you gave that you found the Graduate Student Savings Act?

06:56 Abigail: Yes, that’s how I found it. Oh, I guess we didn’t cover how I got the position too. So this office that hosted the class actually also hosts internships for students. And so FASEB was also accepting applications for science policy fellows through the Biomedical Careers Initiative Office. So I applied for that directly. But they also have internships for a wide range of different careers outside of the academic track, including industry and consulting and patent law as well as policy.

What is the Graduate Student Savings Act?

07:33 Emily: It sounds like a great deal of support actually, that Hopkins is providing and helping you sort of step a little bit outside of academia into another role that can really presumably help your post-PhD career, should you decide to pursue one in science policy. So let’s kind of back up a second and explain more about what the Graduate Student Savings Act is because it’s probably not one that most people have ever heard of. Right? Like probably a lot of people in my audience, they know about IRAs. Maybe they don’t have one, but they sort of know they’re supposed to or maybe they know they might not be able to have one. So what is the Graduate Student Savings Act?

08:06 Abigail: Yeah, so the Graduate Student Savings Act. There’s a bill in both the House and the Senate and they’re essentially the exact same bill, so they’re called companion bills. And they would allow graduate students and postdocs who receive their income through either a fellowship or stipend to contribute to an IRA or an individual retirement account. The current issue right now is that on the current tax law, trainees who are receiving their income through a fellowship or a stipend are actually prohibited from contributing to an IRA because it’s not considered compensation or earned income.

08:44 Emily: Exactly. And I like to further kind of clarify this for people by saying within academia we might use the word fellowship in different ways. We might use the word stipend in different ways. Nobody’s ever heard the word compensation. But what it really boils down to is, is your graduate student or postdoc income reported on a W2 or not reported on a W2? It could be reported somewhere else, it could be reported not at all. W2 income is the kind of income, taxable compensation, or earned income that can be contributed to an IRA under the current law. And anything else in terms of graduate student, postdoc income non-W2 does not fall into that category, unfortunately. So that’s how things currently stand. The Graduate Student Savings Act includes this type of non-W2 or fellowship income in taxable compensation for the purposes of contributing to an IRA. Is that correct?

09:39 Abigail: Yes. And unfortunately, it doesn’t change its designation universally. It doesn’t make it earned income or compensation, but it just allows it to be saved for retirement purposes in an IRA.

09:51 Emily: Yeah. This is one of those confusing things about the tax code in general is that they use these terms like “taxable compensation” and “earned income” under different contexts. And so sometimes they have different definitions under different contexts. So earned income has other implications in the tax code, like around the earned income tax credit. Whereas, taxable compensation has a different meaning. It’s under the section for IRA contributions and so forth. So it’s sort of defined there as “taxable compensation for the purposes of contributing to an IRA is these things,” and currently, it says explicitly, “does not include fellowship income, not reported on a W2.” So that’s the current status. But then there’s this Graduate Student Savings Act bill as you said, it’s sort of on the floor in both the House and the Senate.

How Abby Got FASEB to Endorse the GSSA

10:37 Emily: I was looking at the history of this and I think the first time it was introduced was 2016 and it’s introduced every year I think in more or less the same form until now, 2019. We should actually say we’re recording this interview on September 25th, 2019. It will be released within a couple of weeks of that date. So things might have changed. But as of September 25th, 2019, the Graduate Student Savings Act has not been passed but it is, I guess, available to be passed. So, what was the process like for getting FASEB to ultimately endorse the Graduate Student Savings Act, and what work did you do to make that happen?

11:15 Abigail: Yeah, so originally before I even did the class, FASEB was not aware of the Graduate Student Savings Act at all. It wasn’t on their radar. It wasn’t until I wrote my policy memo on the issues of graduate students saving for retirement, and I actually did the research and I was just Googling it and I came across it on my own, that we both kind of became aware of it. And so I kind of took this on as a task that I wanted to complete in my fellowship and I thought it was an important task and FASEB was great. If there was an issue that I really wanted to take on and it was something that was good for FASEB to endorse, they would have no problem with me taking the lead. So this was my big accomplishment of the fellowship.

12:04 Abigail: And since FASEB is a nonprofit organization any bill that they support needs to have bipartisan support for endorsement. And that thankfully both the House and Senate bill had bipartisan support on both pieces of legislation. I think some of the previous iterations of the Graduate Student Savings Act didn’t have bipartisan support. So this was really important for FASEB to get on board. But it was a little tricky for FASEB to first navigate the waters. They’ve never supported a tax legislation before. You think that experimental biology doesn’t have that much to do with legislation on tax. But here was a perfect one for them to start.

Personal Impact of Flawed Tax Legislation

12:49 Emily: Yeah. As you were saying earlier, it’s a clear workforce issue. Right? So that’s the definite connection or conduit between what they do generally and this weird little tax quirk that happens to deeply affect their own workforce.

13:03 Abigail: Well, yes. So this actually personally affected me. From when I was in college and doing other side jobs, I was always contributing to an IRA, if possible. My dad is very financially responsible and he just told me when I was young, “you need to have an IRA.” He always recommended a Roth IRA. He always thought it would be better to get tax first and any profit you make later you don’t get taxed on. So there’s two different IRAs, a Roth and the standard IRA. So maybe some clarity on that. But this personally affected me when I was a post-bac for those two years I was receiving stipend income and wasn’t reported on a W2 so I couldn’t contribute to an IRA for those two years.

13:51 Abigail: Then my first year in graduate school I was on a training grant, so also not receiving a W2 so I couldn’t contribute. My second year I was actually a teaching assistant, so I was being employed by the university somewhat and getting my income reported on the W2. So I was for that year able to contribute, which was really great. And then I got awarded the National Science Foundation, Graduate Research Fellowship award.

14:20 Emily: Congratulations, but also, dun, dun, dun.

14:23 Abigail: Yeah. So it was really great. But then I also couldn’t contribute to my IRA because it wasn’t reported on a W2. So that affected me for my third and fourth year of graduate school. My fifth year I got married. So that changed things a little. I was still on my NSF fellowship. But because I was married to someone who had a real job and was receiving income that was deemed compensation, I was able to contribute to my Roth IRA just because I was married to my husband. so that was my last year of my fellowship. Now I’m back at Hopkins and I’m TA’ing for this year. So I will again be able to contribute even if my husband wasn’t receiving earned income himself.

15:14 Emily: Yeah, I have a little bit of a similar story of flip-flopping between RAs and fellowship income. And at some point I got married and so my husband, having a similar situation of flip-flopping between RAs and fellowship income, it helped in certain years one of us would have a taxable compensation, maybe the other one wouldn’t. So one of the things that helps people in this situation–under the current status of fellowship income, non-W2 income is not eligible to be contributed to an IRA–one thing that helps is that the academic year and the calendar year do not line up. So, if you have different sources of funding in two different academic years, maybe you can be covered for one calendar year in terms of being able to contribute. It helps if you’re married of course, to someone with taxable compensation. And the other workaround is actually having a side hustle that is self employment income. So self-employment income is taxable compensation that can be contributed to an IRA. So that’s something I sometimes float with people who are frustrated by their multi-year wonderful fellowship packages that don’t allow them to contribute to an IRA. If it’s possible to side hustle, that’s another way to kind of sneak in that eligibility. So, your stipend wouldn’t be eligible, but that side hustle income would be eligible. All these are workaround solutions, the real main solution is just changing the tax code because this is ridiculous that this is happening, right?

Commercial

16:35 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs, and other early-career PhDs for universities, institutes, conferences, associations, etc. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs, like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you are interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. That’s p f f o r p h d s.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

Anything Else About Your Role in FASEB?

17:25 Emily: Okay. So, anything else to add about your role with getting FASEB to endorse the GSSA?

17:31 Abigail: Yeah. So, because it was a tax bill and FASEB had never endorsed a tax bill before, they want it to go through full process of endorsement. They wanted to get everyone’s feedback on it. So the first step was going through their Training and Career Opportunities Subcommittee. So, they have a monthly meeting, I prepared talking points for the chair of that committee, and we discussed it and they couldn’t see anything wrong with it. So, we got a full endorsement from that subcommittee. Then we had to go up one level to the Science Policy Committee and did the same thing, had to talk to the entire committee, got overwhelming support of it. So, it got pushed up to the next FASEB tier, which was the executive committee. They gave the final approval. Actually, for the Training and Career Opportunities Subcommittee and the Science Policy Committee, I made a one-page summary of the current situation and how the Graduate Student Savings Act would change that. So, a one-page review for them. And then when we went for approval for the Executive Committee, we had the full letter drafted for them to approve, and we can also give you a link to the FASEB’s endorsement letter too, as well.

18:56 Abigail: Normally, it would go to the FASEB board for approval, but the board was jam-packed with what they had to do for that month. So, because we got unanimous support from the two committees before that, they thought that the Executive Committee approval would be sufficient. But I started my internship in June and it wasn’t approved until the first week of September. So, it does take a long time for this approval to go through because you have to wait every month for the next committee to happen. And if there are changes and edits to it, then it can also take a lot of time. You want to do it as quick as possible so the endorsement actually has an effect if the bill is getting voted on soon.

19:47 Emily: Yeah, exactly. This is fascinating to hear kind of how the sausage is made, and not even to make the policy, but just to get something like this: an endorsement from group whose endorsement matters in this kind of thing. What I’m just thinking is how good it is that FASEB has connections to the current trainee workforce like through you and other interns they accept because they had you to tell them, “Hey, this is an issue that’s going on. And by the way, there’s a solution to it and it’s in front of Congress right now.” So it’s just, I guess it’s really good for them to offer these kinds of internships programs to get those fresh ideas and those connections to people who are still in training.

20:30 Abigail: Yeah, I think they really appreciate the fellowship program for that same perspective. The younger generation. People serving on these committees and the boards are faculty members that have been serving for a while and they’re very removed from this training portion. I think there might be–and correct me if I’m wrong–but I think there could be a few postdocs who are serving on boards, but I think that’s very unlikely. Most of it’s always faculty. There’s never a postbac representative in these meetings. So, having a fellow there, they really value so they can get that younger perspective on what’s happening currently.

What is the SECURE Act?

21:10 Emily: Yeah. That’s excellent. Okay. So that was your role with FASEB and then with respect to the GSSA, the Graduate Student Savings Act. There is a different bill before Congress that has sucked up a lot more attention in terms of changing the tax code than the GSSA has, and that is the SECURE Act. Can you tell us what the SECURE Act is? Not in a lot of detail, but basically just how it relates to the Graduate Students Savings Act?

21:35 Abigail: The SECURE Act is Setting Every Community Up for Retirement Enhancement Act of 2019, and it’s just a massive retirement savings bill. For some perspective, the Graduate Student Savings Act is a two-page bill, whereas the Secure Act is 124 pages. So it’s just way too large for FASEB to endorse something so big. But fortunately, it has almost the exact same wording as the Graduate Student Savings Act in one of its sections. So it would get across the same thing as the Graduate Student Savings Act. It would allow graduate students receiving unearned income to contribute to an IRA account. It just was too big of a bill for FASEB to endorse because we can’t vet everything and it’s a little bit out of FASEB’s wheelhouse.

22:22 Emily: Yeah. So, basically what sounds like has happened is that the Secure Act has absorbed the Graduate Student Savings Act pretty much verbatim. And it’s making a lot of other changes as you said to retirement accounts. I’ll link to a couple articles on the Secure Act from the show notes, but some other things that caught my eye that it’s trying to address are like having part time workers have more access to 401k’s. It’s changing a little bit of the distribution rules, like once you’re actually in retirement and about inherited IRAs and there’s just a lot of changes there. Abby and I were glancing over it and we saw something that, “Oh maybe this addresses the kiddie tax.” We’re not even sure about that, which would be amazing if it does. So there’s a lot of different things that it touches.

23:02 Emily: And as you were saying earlier, like for FASEB being able to endorse the GSSA, the GSSA had to have bipartisan support. In fact the Secure Act does have bipartisan support. It passed the House and is currently hung up in the Senate as of, again, September 25th. Because the Secure Act passed the House with such strong bipartisan support, everyone kind of thought that it would pass the Senate really quickly. But it’s been hung up, so its future is uncertain but hopefully it will get through. And the wording that was adopted from the GSSA, hopefully that would actually be maintained. And in the final version we would actually see this benefit be extended to graduate students and postdocs where it wasn’t before. But that’s kind of where things stand as of today as of this recording. Hey, maybe by the time this is published something will have changed on that front. That would be awesome.

23:56 Abigail: I think something also important to note is that the wording of the bill, I don’t think that it would also apply to postbacs. It seems very specifically to graduate students and postdocs. So I think, unfortunately, postbacs would be still excluded from the Graduate Student Savings Act.

How Will the Internship Help Your Future?

24:12 Emily: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. I’ll have to take a look at that because I didn’t realize there were distinctions being made among different levels of training. We’ll see how that actually shakes out. It’s always sort of uncertain until kind of the next tax cycle rolls around how these things are actually going to be implemented and everything. Thank you for pointing that out. For postbacs out there, this might not be the news you’re looking for. Maybe you still need the side hustle or maybe you still need to get married to have one of these workarounds. Just kidding, people don’t do that. Okay. So Abby, how do you think that this internship experience with FASEB is going to benefit your future career?

24:52 Abigail: Oh, I think it benefited me already tremendously. Besides from just getting a sense of what science policy really is and getting to immerse myself in it and what I would expect in a job. I got great networking. I already met a bunch of people because FASEB represents so many other societies. You know, I really got to get my name around and people know my work now. I also just got a ton of experience. I generated a bunch of writing samples, which is really crucial in the science policy job search, and I think I’ll get great references also for future jobs. So, it’s benefited me tremendously.

25:30 Emily: Do you have specific plans yet for after you finish? Like what positions you might apply for?

25:35 Abigail: Yes, I’m probably looking for science policy analyst positions. When I graduate. I don’t see really any benefit of doing a postdoc afterwards. There are people that continue to do more science policy fellowships. I’m kind of in the boat where I would just like to be out of fellowships and schooling and just want a real job. And I think with this internship I generated enough experience that I would be able to get an entry-level position and be a sought-after candidate.

Final Advice for Early-Career Grad Students

26:08 Emily: Yeah, I have a great deal of sympathy with that position of, “okay, I don’t need any more training. I’m trained. Let me have a job. Finally.” Definitely. So Abby, last question here, which is one I ask all of my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be related to something we’ve talked about today or it could be something entirely different.

26:29 Abigail: Yeah. So I think of course I would recommend that everyone should open and save in a Roth IRA account and start saving what they can, even if they can’t hit the max. But I think more importantly, we know that graduate school is a really stressful time, and I think it’s really important to invest in your personal wellbeing. And so if that means, paying for workout classes or traveling or if it’s even retail therapy. I think whatever it is, if it’s important to you and if it makes grad school a little bit saner for you it’s important to put some money aside and make time for yourself.

27:08 Emily: Yeah, it’s, it’s actually a little bit weird that sometimes we have to give graduate students permission to spend money on themselves. But if you think about it like more broadly, other people when they receive the financial advice to cut back on those discretionary expenses, cut back on those Wants and so forth, it’s usually because they’re spending at such a level that’s actually endangering their other financial security.

27:35 Emily: Graduate students I would say in general are not spending a sufficient percentage of their income on discretionary things for themselves. Actually, sort of to tie this back to the GSSA, one of the co-sponsors of the GSSA is Senator Elizabeth Warren. She’s sponsored every year in the past, whatever, four years that it’s been up. Many years ago, back when she was a consumer advocate, basically, she wrote this book called All Your Worth*. She co-authored it with her daughter. And that book promotes the balanced money formula, which is to spend, of your after-tax income, no more than 50% of your after-tax income on Needs, 30% on Wants and 20% to Savings. And I was looking at that the other day and I’m thinking that graduate students, I would be surprised if they spent 30% of their income on their Wants.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

28:28 Emily: Usually, it’s that Needs category that gets up to 60, 70, 80% or more because of rents and high costs of living areas and low stipends and all of those kinds of problems. So yeah, in fact, sometimes we do need to hear the advice that it is okay to spend a little bit of money on yourself to help bolster your mental health and help you get through graduate school in great shape. Of course, it’s ideal if you can do that alongside saving for your future and doing all these other great things, but we want you to get through graduate school in one piece. So yeah, thank you for that advice, Abby, and for giving this interview today.

29:02 Abigail: Well, thank you for having me.

Outtro

29:05 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to pfforphds.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to do so without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC.

How to Find and Apply for Fellowships (with ProFellow Founder Dr. Vicki Johnson)

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In this episode, Emily interviews fellowship expert Dr. Vicki Johnson, the founder and director of ProFellow. After completing multiple professional fellowships and her PhD, Vicki decided to help other fellowship seekers do the same by creating the ProFellow database, which now contains more than 1,200 professional and academic fellowships. Vicki relays the best way to find and apply for fellowships and gives excellent advice for making your fellowship application stand out. Winning a fellowship is the best way to increase your stipend or salary as a graduate student or postdoc, and Vicki shares from her experience some of the other career benefits that fellowships bring.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

fellowship application

Teaser

00:00 Vicki: At the end of the day, these organizations that are outside of the university are funding fellowships as a way to further their social impact mission. So make sure you understand what is the mission of the fellowship organization, why are they funding your research or would want to. Make sure you tie your story to their mission, how you’re going to further their mission. That will make you a more competitive candidate.

Introduction

00:25 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode three and today my guest is Dr. Vicki Johnson, the founder and director of ProFellow, the leading online resource for academic and professional fellowships. Vicki herself did four professional fellowships in addition to her funded PhD. Vicki and I discussed the best way to find and apply for academic fellowships, and Vicki gives excellent advice on how to boost your applications’ chances of success. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Vicki Johnson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:06 Emily: Welcome to the podcast. Today, I am joined by Dr. Vicki Johnson, who’s the founder and director of ProFellow, which is a fantastic fellowships database and just amazing resource for graduate students and postdocs and anyone pursuing fellowships kind of in any way. Vicki and I are going to be talking today about everything fellowships. How do you find them? How do you apply for them? How do you win them? Because she is really the premier expert on this topic in our space. So Vicki, thank you so much for joining us today.

01:41 Vicki: Thank you for having me!

01:42 Emily: Can you tell us just a couple words about your background? You know, you have a PhD and how you got started with ProFellow.

01:50 Vicki: Sure. I actually started out in the fellowship world as a professional. I did four professional fellowships in the field of policy and I did some in the U.S. and some abroad. As I was progressing through my career, I did my Masters and then ultimately did my PhD, which was actually just a serendipitous thing that I did while I was on a professional fellowship. Then I had a major career transition about five years ago and decided to teach other people about how to find and win fellowships through ProFellow. And now I’m fully focused on that as my thing. I love fellowships, and I’m excited to tell people more about them.

How Do You Define “Fellowship”?

02:27 Emily: Yeah, it sounds like you have a ton of personal experience as well as your extensive professional experience. So yeah, let’s get started with that– with a pretty basic definition. What is a fellowship? Because that term can mean a lot of different things depending on who you’re talking to. So how do you define it?

02:45 Vicki: So for the purpose of our website, we sort of decided that the definition would be “short-term funded opportunities to do something exceptional.” So there’s a lot of funding opportunities, professional development opportunities, graduate school funding opportunities that aren’t necessarily called fellowship and title, but they do provide funding. They are time-limited, so they’re usually anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of years in length. And they provide you the resources and the network that you typically wouldn’t get in either a job or even just the regular scholarship. So it’s a pretty broad definition. People typically have heard of postdoctoral fellowships or they’ve heard of scholarships and things. But it’s a really very broad definition. So there’s quite a few professionals fellowships and also a whole other world of academic fellowships.

03:36 Emily: Yeah. And so I think today we’re going to be focused mostly on those academic fellowships, the ones that will pay your stipend, maybe pay some tuition and fees, pay your salary if you’re at the postdoc level. But just so people are aware, your site covers much more than that. And in fact, I did a policy fellowship myself after I finished my PhD. It was the, the Mirzayan Fellowship in DC. And that’s something that I wrote about for your site because that fellowship is one among the many others that you cover. But we will be focusing today on those academic fellowships. But just for anyone who’s thinking about another fellowship opportunity, still go back to ProFellow because it’s going to be an amazing resources for you as well. So with these academic fellowships, how do you go about finding them? We’ve all heard probably of the standout one in each of our fields, whatever that is, but there are going to be a whole lot more, too. So how do we go about finding these fellowships?

How to Use ProFellow to Find Fellowships

04:26 Vicki: Well here I’m going to do a big plug for the site profellow.com because we have an enormous database of fellowships at both the professional and academic level. So if you sign up for free to use ProFellow, you can create an account and come in and search our huge database. And within it there are filters. So you can either select fellowships for doctoral study, graduate study, which would include masters programs and postdoctoral research in addition to professional, even summer fellowships for students. You can narrow it down that way and then you can also narrow them down by discipline, your citizenship, years of work experience. I would also say use certain keywords. So let’s say you’re working in conservation. You can use that as a keyword in the database. But for the most part, I tell people to keep their search filters quite broad because there are a lot of fellowships that are multidisciplinary in nature.

05:18 Vicki: So even if it’s not specifically a conservation fellowship, there could be a whole range of fellowships that you can do a conservation related research project, or dissertation research or whatever, with the fellowship because it might be a broader social sciences fellowship or STEM fellowship. So keep your search broad and take the time to look through. We purposely made the listings so that they’re really brief and easy to skim and you can bookmark opportunities. And then you can also from the listing go to the website to learn more. And honestly, I only say this because it’s true. We are a better place to look for fellowships than, say, on Google. If you Google these things, you’ll come up with all sorts of stuff that may or may not be relevant to what you’re looking for. And it’s very difficult to find fellowships on Google or even just through word of mouth. So, use the website. It’s free, and it’s a great way to also find out about new opportunities that are coming up every year.

How Do You Maintain the ProFellow Database?

06:12 Emily: Yeah, thank you so much for that. I’ve been referring to ProFellow for many years as a key database for all of this, and it’s exciting to hear what all you do. I’m actually wondering how you find all these fellowships. Are you well-known enough that these new programs just e-mail you when they have something new coming up, or how do you maintain this database?

06:31 Vicki: Oh, good question. Well, back in the day, nobody knew who we were. But now that we’ve been around since 2011, we have a brand name in the fellowship industry. And honestly, some of the larger categories of fellowships– like, let’s say you’re Googling journalism fellowships or mid-career fellowships or postdoctoral fellowships– ProFellow will rank some of our articles at the top of the list. There are other keywords that we’re still fighting for to get to the top of the list. But if you’re listening to this and you’ve heard of us, you’ll see that. And we’re also very active in the fellowship industry. I just came back from a conference in DC, the Impact Fellowships Summit. So, our name is growing. We’re still a bit skewed toward, U.S. Citizens, U.S. Students, or people coming to the U.S. in terms of what funding is out there. But we are also growing globally. So we are getting more and more fellowships for non-U.S. citizens, international students, or people from other countries going to non-U.S. countries. So, it’s growing. So, there are more and more things. The more you share us with your friends and your colleagues and your professors, the more well-known we will be and even more fellowships we will list.

Applying for Academic Fellowships

07:40 Emily: Yeah, wonderful. Okay, so we have a grad student or a postdoc or an aspiring one of those categories who wants to win a fellowship. What’s the application process like for these academic fellowships?

07:54 Vicki: Yes, well, if you have never applied to a fellowship before, you’ll see that actually it can be similar to applying to graduate school. Usually, there’s a personal statement, recommendation letters, short answers that you have to respond to. In many cases, for the academic or research-related fellowships, you might even have to put in a research proposal. That could be anything from a really brief research proposal to something that’s really long and intense. So, it’s different for every fellowship. I say, get started early. The first thing you should identify is: what do you need to include in the application? I think if you’re in graduate school, you’ll be used to this process of writing a personal statement and talking about your goals, what you want to achieve in your research, so that experience will help you as you pursue the fellowships.

08:42 Emily: So I liked that you drew parallels between the process of applying to graduate school and the process of applying for fellowships. In fact, sometimes even the timing of those things can come together. Right? Do you find that fall is a heavy fellowship season or is it kind of spread out around the year?

08:58 Vicki: Oh yeah, that’s a very good question. Yeah, typically it’s just like the graduate school process where it’s based on the academic year. So you do want to look for fellowships as early as possible. Deadlines tend to fall anywhere between October and January. That’s kind of a typical, what we call, fellowship season. And so if you’re looking for funding, it’s often not very easy to get a fellowship that’s going to fund your next semester right away or even in a few weeks or a few months. Usually, you’re looking a year out. So that’s why, let’s say you’re entering your coming year– your academic year. The fellowships that you apply to this fall typically will fund your following academic year. So yes, keep that in mind. It’s an important kind of timeline that people should be aware of when they’re looking for fellowships.

How to Get Ahead of Fellowship Deadlines

09:42 Emily: Yeah. This is definitely something you need to plan ahead for. Can you tell me a little bit more about, not necessarily the timeline about the fellowship applications cause presumably they just have a due date, but all the various components that could go into an application. Different kinds of essays, letters, just stuff that you need to be working on. Like what do you need work on well in advance of these deadlines?

10:03 Vicki: Well, I think it’s really important if you’re looking for funding for academic research, say your dissertation, to do field work and that sort of thing. A lot of times what the fellowship organizations want to know is they want to know that you’re going to be successful. So when they fund you, they want to know that your project can be successfully completed in the time period of the fellowship with the resources available with the funding available.

10:25 Vicki: So if you’re applying for, say, like a summer fellowship that is only three months in length. That’s not enough time to do your entire dissertation. You’re probably just doing one element of it. So make sure that your research proposal, if that’s part of your application, really reflects what the fellowship is offering and what can be accomplished in that. Because feasibility is very important. It doesn’t matter how great your ideas is; if it’s not feasible, it won’t make it to the next stage. And in the personal statement too, they want to see more about why you’re passionate about your research topic. What are your longterm goals? Often people forget to put in what their career goals are or what they’re going to do after the fellowship. That’s really important. Make sure to include those because at the end of the day, these organizations that are outside of the university are funding fellowships as a way to further their social impact mission. So make sure you understand what is the mission of the fellowship organization, why are they funding your research or would want to. Make sure you tie your story to their mission, how you’re going to further their mission. That will make you a more competitive candidate. So those are, I would say, the main things to include.

Commercial

11:29 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs, and other early career PhDs for universities, institutes and conferences, associations, et cetera. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you are interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking that’s p f f o r p h d s.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

More Advice for Fellowship Applicants

12:18 Emily: Yeah, so it sounds like there are some of these elements, you know, essays that you can reuse much of for several different applications that you might have. But some things are definitely going to have to be tailored to the specific organization.

12:30 Vicki: Absolutely. My mantra is that the amount of effort that you put into your application directly correlates with your likelihood of success. So, I know people don’t want to hear that, “Aw, man, I have to put a lot of time into my application,” because on top of it you’re studying and you’re working, you’re doing other things. But it’s true that when you’re focusing on an application, start it as early as possible because then you can break out times on your calendar to be able to focus just on the application and also make sure to tie in your professors, your mentors. They’ve been doing this a long time. Many of them have won multiple fellowships, multiple grants and funding awards. Don’t do this in a little silo by yourself. Make sure you tell your advisors, your professors that you’re applying for the fellowships because they could have some great insights. They may even be connected to the fellowship in some way you might not be aware of. So, be sure to reach out for advice from those groups, too.

How to Stand Out as a Fellowship Applicant

13:29 Emily: Yeah, we’re definitely getting into some good advice here for fellowship applicants. These fellowships presumably get hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of applications. What’s going to really make a candidate stand out and make a fellowship application look very, very strong?

13:48 Vicki: Yeah. The two main things, especially with the academic research, if you are applying to a fellowship that is being funded by a foundation, a nonprofit government agency, NGO, whatever that is, make sure that you understand the mission of the organization. I think I mentioned this already, but a lot of people sort of skip over this part. They are so wrapped up in explaining their research and why they want to do it that they don’t really tie why their research aligns with the mission of the organization. So it’s very, very, very important that you touch on that mission. They may not ask you how you feel about their mission. They may not ask you how it ties to their mission. But when you think about the other group, the other person–the investors, as I like to call it–they’re investing in you. Make sure you make a really clear reason as to why they should invest in you because they have a purpose for the fellowship and you have a purpose for your research and you’ve got to make sure they tie together.

14:47 Emily: Yeah. Excellent. Any other advice for making an outstanding fellowship application, but let’s say also just an outstanding fellowship applicant? What can you do in your life that will go on your CV or that people will be able to write about in your letters that will help you stand out?

Fellowships: More than Just the Fellowship

15:05 Vicki: You know, I think some people get a little bit intimidated by the fellowship process. Like you said, there’s hundreds, thousands of applications and it can be really disappointing to get a rejection letter from a fellowship that you worked really hard on the application on. But just keep in mind that the effort that you put in, your professors and your supervisors are watching as you do this. And so even if you’re rejected, I’m telling you, there’s something extra that you get. I don’t know what the right word is, that will help you as you go further in your career. So it’s not all for not if you don’t get into the fellowship. But also, if you do get into a fellowship, make sure to take advantage of the wider resources that the fellowship offers.

15:49 Vicki: There’s usually an alumni network. They’re connected to high-level organizations and leaders in your field, both in the U.S. And globally. Take full advantage of every opportunity that the fellowship provides beyond just the funding that they’re going to give you. Because we all know that when it comes to career tracks that, these days to get a job, you have to be in the know. You have to know somebody, you have to be an influencer, you have to have personal connections. And these are things that are very valuable that you can get out of the fellowship. But also, these personal connections that you make are also very valuable when you’re applying to fellowships, too. So as you’re applying, reach out to alumni, reach out to professors and mentors, get as much advice as you can. All of this, little bit incrementally, adds to your success long-term.

How Often Should I Apply for Fellowships?

16:37 Emily: Yeah, I’m really glad you brought up the other benefits of winning a fellowship aside from the funding itself. So I had a friend in graduate school who was a Hertz Fellow. I was blown away by the number of networking events and opportunities to meet potential employers that that fellowship provided. It was truly outstanding, and I don’t know that there are that many others that go to that degree. But certainly as you said, there are alumni networks that you can be connected to. Really, it is another way of networking. A very, very good, strong networking connection to have won a fellowship. One other thing I wanted to ask you about: another guest that I just had on who was a fellowship applicant said something along the lines of, “it’s sort of a numbers game.” You just need to apply to a lot of stuff and hopefully, here and there you’ll win something. But really, as you said, each fellowship application takes a good amount of time dedicated to it. Would you say that people should be applying to a few fellowships every year? Not necessarily like full, “it’s going to pay everything” fellowships, but just some kind of award that they could go up for.

17:42 Vicki: To be honest, I’m not really in the mind frame of the numbers game. I’ve heard people say that. I’ve heard multi-award winners say that. As as I said, I have won multiple fellowships, but for each of them I was sort of applying for them one at a time. When you’re applying to graduate school or looking for graduate funding, often you do have to apply for a few at a time in the hopes that you get one of them. But I don’t know necessarily that it’s a numbers game where you just throw out a million applications and hope that one sticks, because I do think that approach could also distract you a little bit from really putting in the focus that you need to create a strong application. I would say just make sure that you’re a good fit for the programs that you’re applying to.

18:23 Vicki: If it really is a stretch, is your research actually furthering the mission of the organization? If it’s really a stretch, it might not really be worth applying to. Whereas if you find two or three fellowships that you think you’d be a really good candidate for, go for all three, because it will be worthwhile. And I should also say people should look into summer fellowships too, which are just kind of brief summertime fellowships that are specifically for students. Some of them are professional in nature. Some of them are for academic research as well. But even those little summer fellowships give you those professional networks and experiences that you can’t get otherwise and they’re very, very good for your post-graduation career goals.

Final Advice for Fellowship Applicants: Be Yourself

19:06 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for your insight on that. I’m going to ask you a little more about ProFellow in a moment, but just before we get there, any final words of advice for fellowship applicants?

19:17 Vicki: Oh, just be yourself, too. I think people worry too much about telling the organization what they want to hear. And I do teach people about the social psychology of really understanding the mission and making sure that you link your work to that. But at the same time, to be your authentic self is really valuable. There are people reading these applications. They’re not robots. They’re people. So, tell your story, your authentic story, and really be yourself. And if you get thrown a hard question, answer it as honestly as you can. If it was meant to be, it will be.

Additional Resources at ProFellow

19:51 Emily: Okay. So tell us a little bit more about ProFellow. You’ve talked about the database a little bit already, but I know you have a lot more stuff going on aside from just, this is where we can search for fellowships.

20:00 Vicki: Sure. At profellow.com, we do have this huge database of funding opportunities that you can search. We also do articles featuring fellows and ask them about their fellowship experience and their application tips. So it’s a great place to hear what fellowship alumni say about how they made their application stand out, what they did to get above the hundreds of thousands of applicants. We also do listicles, we do articles. Specifically, “10 fellowships in policy,” “25 dissertation fellowships.” So we have a lot of resources that help you find the fellowships and get the tips. We also have workshops, usually on a monthly basis, on everything from creating a great personal statement to creating an exceptional research proposal.

20:45 Vicki: So if you’re on our mailing list, you’ll be alerted to those things as well. And actually, next week and two weeks from now I’m doing a Fulbright applicant mastermind for people that are applying for the international Fulbright awards. So that’s something that if you’re considering as an enrolled student for either your field work or just to have an international experience, a Fulbright is something you can consider. But yeah, we have all sorts of stuff. We even have ProFellow academy, which is another platform for free advising. So you can ask questions, connect with fellowship alumni, have office hours. So yeah, we’re just chockfull of resources. Most of it’s free. So, sign up, get on our mailing list and then you will have access and also get alerts about new fellowship opportunities.

How to Connect with ProFellow

21:26 Emily: Yeah, that sounds amazing. I’m actually trying to think, “oh, is there any fellowship that I could apply for? Does that fit in my life right now?” One of those professional fellowships that you mentioned. So profellow.com, is that the best place to go? Or are you on social? Any other contact information you want to share?

21:41 Vicki: Oh, yes. You’ll find us also on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn. But really just go to profellow.com. That’s the place to be. Sign up right on the homepage and that’ll get you right into the database. You can also search our site for all the other great stuff. Be on the lookout for our biweekly newsletter, ProFellow Insider.

22:00 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much, Vicki for joining me on the podcast today and sharing your expertise with us.

22:06 Vicki: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Outtro

22:08 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to pfforphds.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to do so without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC.