children

This PhD’s Path to FIRE Has Evolved with Lifestyle Design and Having Children

March 18, 2024 by Jill Hoffman 1 Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Amanda, a prior podcast guest who is on the path to FIRE. Since our last interview, Amanda and her husband moved to the Twin Cities and had two children. Amanda recounts the exciting start to her FIRE journey when she was a postdoc and contrasts it with the boring middle of pursuing FIRE now with long-term jobs and a growing family. Amanda and Emily discuss the extra expenses that come with children—and those that don’t have to—and how emergencies and other expensive projects mean that the progress made toward FIRE is different each and every year. Amanda and Emily conclude that pursuing FIRE really is more about the journey than the destination and all the benefits you experience along the way.

Links mentioned in the Episode

This PhD's Path to FIRE Has Evolved with Lifestyle Design and Having Children

Teaser

Amanda (00:00): Know that your life has phases and make the most of the phases you’re in. You know, I think as as I started learning about finances, I felt so eager to be in some of the phases that I saw other people. And I felt so frustrated being at the beginning or not having the kind of income or options that I wanted. And, you know, as I’ve been on this path for a while, I’m just learning that every phase of life has, uh, some really beautiful benefits and great things you can do. And then there’s things you aren’t working on. And it’s okay to not be accomplishing every goal, uh, all at the same time.

Introduction

Emily (00:46): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:15): This is Season 17, Episode 6, and today my guest is Dr. Amanda, a prior podcast guest who is on the path to FIRE. Since our last interview, Amanda and her husband moved to the Twin Cities and had two children. Amanda recounts the exciting start to her FIRE journey when she was a postdoc and contrasts it with the boring middle of pursuing FIRE now with long-term jobs and a growing family. Amanda and I discuss the extra expenses that come with children—and those that don’t have to—and how emergencies and other expensive projects mean that the progress made toward FIRE is different each and every year. Amanda and I conclude that pursuing FIRE really is more about the journey than the destination and all the benefits you experience along the way.

Emily (02:04): The tax year 2023 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. I do license these workshops to universities, but in the case that yours declines your request for sponsorship, you can purchase the appropriate version as an individual. Go to PFforPhDs.com/taxreturnworkshop/ to read more details and purchase the workshop. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e6/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Amanda.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:13): I am delighted to have back on the podcast today, Dr. Amanda. She joined us in two previous episodes, season one episode 11, and season five episode 15. So we’ve seen a couple of snapshots of Amanda’s, uh, financial journey so far that she’s been, um, so generous to share with us. And we’re gonna get another update today after a few years. So there’s been a lot of changes. Amanda is on the path to FI or fire, financial independence and early retirement. And so we’re gonna talk a lot about what that looks like for a PhD today. So Amanda, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. It’s a pleasure to see you again. And will you please introduce yourself a little further for the listeners?

Amanda (03:50): Sure. Happy to be with you again, Emily. Uh, I am Dr. Amanda. I am currently an assistant professor in education. Uh, something kind of unique about my current position is I work fully remote, so I live in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota and I work for a university that’s out of state. But my students are EDD students, so they’re doctoral students in education, they’re teachers, school administrators, principals, they have full-time jobs, so they’re doing most of their program online. So I go to campus when they have their on-campus residency type stuff. But otherwise we’re all online and it works great for me. I love teaching online. I do a lot of dissertation support over Zoom. Um, so me sitting with headphones in a setting like this is, uh, kind of how I spend my days and I really like it.

Emily (04:42): And if you wanna hear more about that, the second episode I referenced season five, episode 15 is where Amanda talked about her job search and how she strategically moved to the Midwest, et cetera, for at least partially financial reasons. So I’m sure we’re gonna hear more about that too. Um, anything else you’d like to share with us?

Amanda (04:57): Uh, I have two young kids, which I believe last time I was on the show I, I don’t even think I had either of my kids. So I’ve got a one and a 4-year-old now. And, um, one of the things I really like about my remote position is it’s flexible. It allows me to spend a lot of time with them, uh, and be there for them. So that’s really great. My daughter goes to a nature preschool now in our neighborhood, which we just absolutely love. And then my son is, he spends most of his days with his grandmas.

Emily (05:28): And that was, as I recall, one of your reasons for moving there, right? Your proximity to family.

Amanda (05:32): Yes. So my situation was I had my, uh, husband and I had moved from Los Angeles where I was a postdoc at USC and he was a technical director in the USC games division. And then I took a position, uh, way across the country in Ohio and we get to Ohio and we move there and my job’s going great, I really like it, but he’s not finding the right thing. And then the perfect job for him, he designs educational games and Twin Cities public television, uh, PBS and the Twin Cities post this job where they’re looking for somebody to lead their digital and games content for, uh, it was a new show at the time. Now it’s Hero Elementary for anyone who has littles who watch Hero Elementary.

Emily (06:16): My kids love that show.

Amanda (06:17): Yeah. And we love it too. And it was just the perfect job. So that also happened to be 10 minutes away from where my family was living, and we knew we were kind of wanting to start a family, so it was like, you have to apply. And then my university was great, like things were going well, and they said, do you wanna try something remote? And this was pre pandemic, so it was a little experimental at the time. Now I feel like this is not an unusual scenario, it was at the time, but it’s worked really well. Um, so we’ve been doing that a lot of years and it just continues to work. Great.

Emily (06:50): I love this lifestyle design. Um, I’ve been listening to a lot of Cal Newport recently. Are you familiar with him? Yes. Yeah. So I’ve, I’ve read a few of his books. I’ve been listening to his podcast and he’s all about this like, I can’t remember the acronym, but it’s basically lifestyle centric career design, something like that. Um, but basically doing exactly what you’ve just, um, exemplified is getting enough career capital, in your case, the PhD, the professorship, um, to be able to leverage it to get the lifestyle you want at the point in your life when you need it, which for you was, you know, this opportunity for your husband and the, and the kids coming and all of that. So like, ugh, I wish he did interviews ’cause you would be a great interview for his podcast, but I don’t think he does that sort of thing.

Amanda (07:26): I mean, it is scary. Like when we were doing it, I remember thinking like, I agonized for weeks over trying to figure out how to ask if I could go to remote. But thinking I’m a first year professor, I was even just a few months in really, because this all happened within really right after we moved, um, we moved to Ohio in late July, August, and over Thanksgiving I helped my husband move to the Twin Cities ’cause he was starting there. So he was only there a few months, but I remember thinking like, I don’t have this capital, we can’t do this. How am I gonna ask? And then they brought it up and I remember feeling so relieved and thinking I probably could have asked, but I think sometimes as grad students, we, I know at least I felt like there was a way you’re supposed to do things.

Amanda (08:12): Like we were trained in sort of the R1 research world where it was like, you are going for a tenure track job. That is what you are going to do. You’ll move anywhere, do whatever it takes you to, you know, and especially as a couple, like you gotta find that dual hire. And I spent my whole time as a postdoc feeling like, I don’t know if this is what I want. And just, it probably took me a few years of listening to a lot of financial podcasts and lifestyle podcasts to really get comfortable with saying, what if we don’t do that? What if we did something different? What if we, this is crazy, try to live where we wanna live, which for us, you know, is the Midwest where family is, and we actually really like it here. We like the seasons. It’s not for everyone. The winters can be brutal, but, um, it took a while to get to feeling like we could make those choices.

The Beginning of Amanda’s FIRE Journey

Emily (09:03): Yeah, I see what you’re saying, because you might not think right, getting out of grad school, getting outta your postdoc that you have any career capital at that point. But honestly, if they made the investment of hiring you as a faculty member, like yeah, it’s a big investment for them too. So, and you were just ahead of the curve, right? Because everyone’s doing the remote like thing now, so it’s all worked out. I’m so glad to hear that. Let’s get into the topic for today. We’re gonna talk about your journey to fire and how the moment you’re in this, what they call the boring middle phase. So I want you to back up a little bit and describe to us what the beginning of the journey to fire looked like when it was exciting and no longer boring like it is now. Um, and we did get some of this in that first interview that you did back in season one, episode 11 about how you read Ramit Sethi book and started making some changes and so forth. So we got a little bit of that story, but describe to us a little bit more completely what, what you think of as the exciting beginning to the fire journey.

Amanda (09:54): Yeah, I guess I would say it kind of started for us when we moved to Los Angeles after finishing grad school because that was the first time we had, uh, jobs that weren’t assistantships. So we, we had a little bit of money and we very intentionally decided to, um, try to then hit, uh, you know, some of those higher savings rates we were reading about. So when we got, we lived in a really nice, uh, condo in la but it was small. It was only about 700 square feet. And we, um, our biggest expense then besides rent was doggy daycare because we’d been talking about adopting a, a pup, uh, all through grad school. And it was like, no, no, no, we’re doing this, we’re doing this now. Um, so we were paying for doggy daycare, but otherwise we just like to be outside.

Amanda (10:41): We did our own cooking and so we were really intentional about trying to keep our costs down and then hitting our student loans really aggressively. And we were, we were in school far enough back where we did have those like 7% interest rates that you’re seeing now. And so it was enough where we were looking at that going, we’d really like to pay these off. And so, um, you know, that was just something we really focused on is not, um, not blowing up our lifestyle too much when we were starting to make it was postdoc money. It wasn’t crazy money, but it was more than we were, more than we had when we were grad students.

Emily (11:15): Yeah, I think that’s one of those important messages about those career transition points, right? I mean, you, you hear the live like a student thing, but for people with PhDs, it’s like, you were living like a student for a really long time, but please, please, please just hold on, do a, a couple of lifestyle upgrades like you got the dog, but like, don’t go crazy with it when you’re still only making postdoc salaries or after that because you can really make some good traction against your financial goals. And especially if you’re feeling behind by that point. Um, you being immersed in the personal finance like community, you probably did feel behind, I would imagine, even though like objectively speaking, you weren’t . Um, but like having those kinds of influences, you were probably really eager to get started with the savings goals and the, and the student loan repayment and all that stuff, and that you Oh yeah, you can really make good progress on that when you’re keeping your lifestyle low.

Amanda (11:57): I remember looking at those compound interest, uh, charts and thinking, what have we done with our twenties ? Oh my gosh, we’ve been in school, we haven’t made any money, you know, now we’re 30 and we’re just starting. Oh, we messed it all up. And it took me a while to go, okay, you know what? It is okay, 30 is not that old. But I, I do think that sometimes that can happen to those of us in academia who do spend a long time in school and you know, oftentimes people have a lot in loans too, so it can feel like, um, it can feel like you’re starting from behind. We actually, um, we have this little lifestyle. We just run this little Etsy shop. Um, it’s tiny. It doesn’t make a lot of money, it’s just a lot of fun. We have a laser printer and we make game tokens and wood coasters, but we named it 30 below zero because at 30 years old our net worth was below zero. And it was just a reminder for us of where we’re starting. And so it’s the name of our Etsy shop. It’s just kind of funny, but we did, we felt behind.

Emily (12:58): So you were talking about that exciting beginning of, okay, we finally have some salaries, , where we can make, you know, some progress toward these goals and a simple lifestyle. I mean, Los Angeles is expensive, the rent and so forth. But you said other than that, in the doggy daycare, you kept things pretty reasonable. Um, was anything else sort of, um, exciting or different about that phase of your fire journey?

Amanda (13:19): Yeah, I would say we did something kind of different with our wedding. Uh, you know, that that was a good example of us seeing what do we value? Let’s not do what everyone else is doing. What do we wanna do? So we were living in San Pedro at the time, which is right, just a few miles from Catalina Island, and we could see Catalina Island when we would go on hikes with our dogs. You know, you’re looking off at the coastline and there’s the island. So we decided to get married on Catalina Island, but we just did this small immediate family. So we flew our parents and siblings out and that’s it. We had this tiny little ceremony, super charming on Catalina Island. We all, we booked them all, uh, rooms in the same hotel and we just spent a couple days hanging out there on the island, hiking, eating out. Um, but we never did a big thing with DJs and catering and that just, it didn’t feel like what we wanted at the time. And so that was an example of us just saying, okay, what do, who are we and what do we wanna do? What are our values? And how do we live this FI thing while also being true to who we think we are?

Emily (14:25): Hmm. Yeah. I can see how that does fall into the exciting beginning part of the journey because you’re taking this new step with your relationship, um, you’re, you know, combining things maybe in a way you didn’t before and thinking about your values and how you really want your life to look through this period of transition. And so that, that is an exciting time of really being able to think through and set some new patterns and and so forth and, and do something a little bit counter-cultural, like what you’re saying. Um, yeah. Anything else you wanna add about that period?

Amanda (14:52): Uh, no, not a whole lot. We just, we continued to do that. Um, when I started the faculty job, we, you know, I think a lot of people when they start a faculty job, especially I think in the Midwest, in a place where houses are affordable, it’s like, well, I have to have a house. But we just, in the first year we’re like, we don’t know this place yet. We’re getting to know this area. So we rented a modest apartment. We, um, this was a, a fairly rural area, so we were getting our groceries at Walmart, which was kind of new to us, but like doing our own cooking. And then when my husband took the job in the Twin Cities, he actually lived with my parents for a short time until I moved there. ’cause for a while we were in different states. Um, but we, at that time, we had a really aggressive savings rate because I was living by myself doing yoga with Adrian and walking the dog free entertainment, playing video games and cooking at home. He was doing the same thing, new job, living with my parents. So, um, at that time it was just kind of exciting to watch those student loan balances go down and feel like we’ve, we’ve got this, we can actually do the things we’ve been reading about doing.

Retirement Accounts and Student Loans

Emily (15:57): Yeah, that is very exciting. Okay, so you’re watching the student loan balances decline, you were also saving for retirement. Is that, is that true? Can you tell me like the mix of accounts that you were working with? Yeah,

Amanda (16:05): Yeah. Um, USC was kind of unique because, uh, my husband was working as an employee of USC and I was a postdoc, so he had access to their retirement savings and a match. And I didn’t as a postdoc, I don’t know if that’s changed since then. Uh, so we were, um, LA the la he was paying into his 401k and as soon as we actually, even as grad students, we were trying to max out our Roth IRAs or at least contribute to those. So we really did start right away when we were reading about this stuff as like, all right, let’s a Roth, we can do a Roth, you know, it’s not that much money or let’s just do what we can. Um, and so it was just starting to add to that. Then we added, um, when I started as a faculty member, I eventually got access to a 403B at my institution. So yes, we are definitely investing for retirement and trying to get that going while also getting the student loans paid off.

Emily (16:59): Now I’m curious because we’ve been talking mostly about the pre pandemic time period, but did you make any different decisions with the student loans when the administrative forbearance came into play?

Amanda (17:09): We had them paid off by then, actually. So, um, yeah, we went real aggressive real fast. Neither of us had, we both worked through college and grad school, so neither of us had, um, the sort of terrifying balances that you hear about some people starting with, which is good because, uh, you know, we are, we’re in tech, but we’re in ed tech education, so we also, um, you know, weren’t gonna be making the kind of crazy money that you kind of need to make to pay off those six figure, uh, loan payments. So it really didn’t take us more than a couple years to get those paid down. So I believe by the time the pandemic hit, we had already paid off our loans.

Emily (17:49): Okay. So student loans eliminated starting, or, you know, continuing and accelerating their retirement savings. And did a house purchase come into play at some point there?

Amanda (17:57): Yes, we bought a house at the very end of 2018. Um, our daughter was born in June of 2019, so kind of right around the time I moved from Ohio to the Twin Cities area, we bought a house, um, in the neighborhood where my parents live.

Current Finances, Lifestyle, and Non-Traditional Housing Decisions

Emily (18:14): Lovely. You mentioned your daughter born in 2019, and then your son’s about three years younger. Um, so let’s, let’s fill out the lifestyle now in terms of what your finances look like. What, what your lifestyle looks like. Um, now that you’ve got the job set and the kids are present or on the way, like what does this phase of fire look like?

Amanda (18:34): It’s slower and more boring. Uh, you know, if I’m being honest, um, we did, uh, upgrade the house and part of that is because my husband’s mom lives with us, she helps us with childcare. So we wanted to have a nice space for us. And what we did, this is, uh, kind of non, another non-traditional thing we did, we swapped houses with my parents, so they lived right in the neighborhood, but they were, uh, you know, they’re kind of thinking about retiring, they’re looking to downsize. ’cause they were still in kind of the home they’d raised, uh, my sister and I in. And so they had more space than they wanted and we were, uh, as we were thinking about having a second child, we were like, ah, this, we could do this. It’s gonna be tight. We could finish the basement and create these rooms. And it just sort of worked for, um, my parents were happy to buy the house that we had bought, which is a little bit smaller, but in the same neighborhood. And we bought, uh, the house that I grew up in or I moved when I was a kid, but, you know, somewhat grew up in, uh, you know, from my parents. And so it is a bigger house. Um, you know, there are, you know, it’s a, the expenses are a little higher for sure, but, um, yeah,

Emily (19:46): How, I don’t know. I just, I’m so tickled whenever I hear about families that are able to do these kinds of things for one another. There are some people in my husband’s family who have done something similar with their, um, children and it’s just, it’s so, it’s so lovely that you get to have that proximity and you get to live this more, a more communal lifestyle than is really, you know, typical for most, um, Americans. So it’s great to hear. Um, anything else? What, what’s going on now with the, the boring middle? You’re adding kids, you’re adding expenses related to the kids.

Amanda (20:13): Yeah, we pay for preschool now. Uh, we’re trying to contribute a bit to 529s and, you know, everything’s just a little bit more expensive, you know, this, this bigger house costs a little bit more. Um, we’re in Minnesota, the heating and cooling costs, especially the heating costs are, you know, they, they add up for sure. Um, I’ve become a little bit more into health and nutrition since having kids, and so I definitely buy bougie or groceries, , you know, we, uh, just quality of food, you know, we don’t eat out a lot lot. We really do cook at home, but, um, definitely we spend a lot more on groceries than we were spending a few years ago, but that’s, it’s an intentional lifestyle choice. Um, you know, for us, we are pursuing fire, and we can talk about this a little bit, but there isn’t a point at which we feel like we need to reach it. It isn’t like, oh, we really want to be completely fire by 2035 and, you know, um, it’s just sort of a direction that we’re heading rather than a very specifically defined goal.

Emily (21:20): I’ve, I’ve noticed with our family too, you know, we, we have kind of a, you know, a, a similar trajectory. We have two children, we own a house now. Um, we’re compared to when we were renting, even when we had the two kids, we were still renting for some time when we were living in Seattle. Um, an 850 square foot apartment with the four people. Oh. And then the pandemic started , so that was fun. Um, so like the housing cost for instance was a massive upgrade to go from that apartment to like the house that we purchased, but that’s because it’s a lot bigger. There’s just a ton more to like maintain. There’s a lot more considerations you have as a homeowner than as a renter. When you look at these like estimates that are occasionally put out, I guess, that are done yearly of like the cost of raising a child, you know, birth to age 18, a really, really big, big chunk of that estimated expense, which is like $200,000 or something.

Emily (22:06): A really big chunk of that is the housing expense , because you have to find room for this extra human that’s in your family or more than one human that’s in your family now. So that’s, I think, you know, you can, you can decide to be like frugal in a lot of ways if you want to, when you have children, like maybe you, um, you know, make other arrangements for childcare. You don’t spend as much in that area, but the housing is like, maybe it doesn’t come when they’re a baby, but eventually you’re gonna have to have a bigger space to accommodate those extra people. Um, so that’s been, not, not exactly surprising, but just like it has a really big effect. Like we for instance, don’t make, aren’t making nearly as much progress with our savings as we may have expected with the nice salaries that we have now because just, yeah, a lot of our expenses are a lot higher than it was for just two adults.

Amanda (22:47): Yeah. And my husband was just showing me this graph of uh, a graph mapping what people are spending on housing. So median rent and mortgage payments with uh, US household incomes and oh, that’s it. It’s a depressing graphic to look at. I mean the real reality is, is even if you’re doing everything right, uh, it’s, especially depending on where you live, housing is going to be a really substantial part of what you’re making. It’s fairly unavoidable. And like you said, when you have kids that space is just kind of non-negotiable. I mean, you know, there are a handful of families you hear, oh, you know, we have five kids and we still live in whatever square feet. And you know what, some people make that work, but I think for the vast majority of people you do kind of elect to say, ah, you know, maybe we won’t be saving as much as we would in a really ideal world, but this space helps us live a life that, you know, is calm and happy and feels right to us in the time.

The FIRE Journey with Children and Car Buying Decisions

Emily (23:49): What are the other ways that adding these children to your family has affected your fire journey?

Amanda (23:54): We still try to, um, you know, look for wins where we can. So, um, you know, I said we spend a lot more on grocery than we used to. ’cause I just really care about the quality of food. We don’t care that much about cars. I work remotely. My husband works part-time remotely thanks to the pandemic. So he went from having a job where he was in the office five days a week to now he’s only needs to be in the office a couple days a week. So we have two kids, but we only have one car. And right now, while our kids are little and they aren’t in a lot of activities, that works great for us. So we have a, um, completely paid off car. We paid off our car. That was another thing you asked about pandemic expenses in 2020, we made the last payment on our car.

Amanda (24:37): So now we don’t have a car payment and we’re not looking, uh, to upgrade. Like we didn’t feel the need to get a big SUV as soon as we had kids. And I know that’s something that a lot of Americans, it feels like a very American thing to do. Like we’re having a kid, we need an SUV, we are really happy with our economical hybrid and we’re still happy with it. So that’s one way we’ve tried to control our expenses. Like I look at what’s happened with the cost of cars in the past few years and uh, they look a lot like rent and mortgage payments. Look not that long ago, .

Emily (25:10): Yeah. I want to underline this strategy as well. It’s, it’s something that, that I’ve noticed too really common that you upgrade a lot of things. Some people upgrade a lot of things pretty much immediately when they, they know a child is on the way or once the child arrives, whether that’s the bigger car or the newer car or the bigger housing arrangement. Even if a baby is very, very small and you don’t necessarily need that right away. Um, although eventually of course you do. And some other thing, other like lifestyle upgrade as well, like same for us. Like we actually have, our car is a 2003, we’ve been, my husband’s owned it that entire time, so it’s over, you know, it’s 20 years old now, it’s a sedan. Um, and yeah, I think we were maybe thinking about switching out the car before the pandemic and then like you said, because of what’s happening with prices, we were like, whoa, let’s put the brakes on that.

Emily (25:54): Like, we don’t wanna engage in this market right now. Yeah, now my kids are five and seven and they’re getting to that stage where you said they have more activities, they have more stuff going on. We’re thinking maybe we do either need a larger primary car or perhaps a secondary car. I think what’s gonna happen is we’re gonna keep the 20-year-old car as a secondary car, right? Add, yeah, just add another, um, maybe bigger, maybe the same size of car. We actually just invested in solar panels, so we’re probably gonna get an electric car for that next, um, step. But it’s like we, we put it off, right? We put it off until this stage when it’s like, okay, it’s really, really seeming like it’s necessary at this point. And I mean, I cannot tell you like how much savings that is over the years. It’s probably multi thousands of dollars each year, if not like, perhaps $10,000 in that first year. And just delaying that expense every time. You can delay a big expense, you can stretch out the time that you use, you know that item over, you get more and more value and you’re able to direct your money elsewhere.

Amanda (26:48): I think there’s a choose Fi episode where they look at driving a car for, it’s not even a crazy amount of time. It’s like 10 or 15 years for the car, but not upgrading as soon as you’ve paid it off and just continuing to drive it. And they look at that over an adult lifetime, just that one decision. And I think ultimately they get at a million dollars or close to a million dollars just in the savings of not constantly having a car payment or driving the most expensive vehicle you could possibly afford.

Emily (27:18): It’s absolutely a huge difference. And like you said, lifestyle makes a big difference here. ’cause like my husband and I both work from home that we walk the kids to school, like we don’t really need, we don’t really drive except for like going to errands and driving the kids to their activities sometimes. So it’s not even, yeah, it’s just, we don’t put that many miles on the car, I guess is what I’m saying. Now sometimes it’s convenient to have two, but we’ve been doing a lot of biking recently. We’ve been doing some Ubering when we do need the second car and that feels expensive in the moment, but when you think about it over the long term, it’s so much less expensive than owning a second car that you rarely use.

Commercial

Emily (27:52): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Emergency Fund

Emily (28:42): Now you mentioned, um, in our, uh, pre-interview communications that you are at the moment very grateful for your emergency fund. So can you tell us more about why that is?

Amanda (28:53): 2023 has demanded a lot from our emergency fund. Uh, literally on January 1st, I was driving the kids home from Target and our car broke down and it turned out it needed pretty much the most expensive possible repair for that car. And it’s a hybrid, so it ended up being about $6,000, which is it. We had kept up the maintenance. They had just told us a few months before that this car was in great shape. Uh, we were not anticipating any car expenses, there was nothing we’d been deferred. So it was a real surprise to us. Uh, but given what had happened, as we just talked about to the cost of cars over the pandemic, we were looking at it and going $6,000 doesn’t even get us that far to a comparable similar vehicle. And so we decided to do that repair and uh, you know, luckily we had the emergency fund, so we were able to, uh, pay for that.

Amanda (29:51): Uh, fast forward just a few months later in the summer, uh, we found out our dog needed a pretty substantial surgery. And again, we’d, we’d worked hard after spending down some of that emergency fund to build it up, uh, you know, even over those few short months. And it’s just, we felt so good being able to not have to consider whether we can afford that surgery. Um, you know, and just, and not needing to worry about financing, but knowing we could focus on, yes, let’s do this procedure. Let’s get her the care she needs, let’s get her feeling better. And so that was just phenomenal for us. And you know, that was a good reminder. I am very happy to live below my means so that when things like this happen and things are going to happen like this in life, we just don’t need to worry about it.

Amanda (30:39): It’s, yes, we have this money, we’ll pay for this surgery. Um, and so that was just, um, really, we were very grateful to have the money to not have to worry about the cost of that and to just be able to pay for it in one fell swoop. And then, uh, just last month we decided to do an installation project. So we had new installation put in an erratic, we did a, a home energy audit in the summer and found out that we have about five inches of attic installation and they recommend 15 here in Minnesota. So, uh, you know, given the severity of our winters, we were like, yep, we’d better do this right away. Let’s get that insulation taken care of. So that wasn’t an emergency, but again, just having savings and having the fact that there’s a good chunk of money every month that we just put away for stuff that we know will come up later has just been so fantastic for us this year.

Emily (31:35): Yeah, that, that really speaks to the, um, utility and the stress relief that comes with having margin in your life. That’s financial margin, that’s time margin, that’s energy margin. Not everybody has that. It’s, it’s difficult to, to intentionally get your life to the level where you have margin in those areas, but when you do and then those things come up, you’re so, so grateful that you did that advance, you know, work and, and design and so forth to, to have that happen. Um, I like to say regarding emergency funds, that an emergency fund is what stands between something bad happening in your life and something bad happening in your life and there being significant financial consequences for it. Um, like your dog’s, um, surgery for instance. For instance, um, so like you, if you hadn’t had the money, you, you may have had that really tough decision about what do you yes.

Emily (32:22): Do you lose this, this pet and do you lose this Yeah. Member of your household. Um, but you didn’t have to agonize over that because you had the money. So it just provides so much, so much peace. And I lived for a long time with very scant emergency fund because I was in grad school and I was focused on other things, but like I, we have much larger one now and it, it does afford a lot of peace of mind, especially with the extra responsibilities that come with the home ownership and the car ownership and the kids and all the stuff that we’ve been talking about. So it definitely needs to sort of scale with your lifestyle.

Amanda (32:52): Yes, it does. We definitely have more set aside and uh, more things come up for sure. But yeah, I personally am happy to slow down on things like vacations or uh, you know, we just talked about cars, you know, if we had another car that’s money that probably wouldn’t be in that emergency fund. And just for me, I sleep so much better at night knowing that money is there for whatever is going to come up where we’re going to need it. And you know, I know not everyone, um, comes to that same conclusion. Um, and I think that post pandemic, there’s been a lot of this, um, you know, YOLO mentality and I totally understand that, that people are wanting to prioritize experiences, but I just have to say personally, I’ve landed on, I’m much happier with, um, some money just being there and waiting for what we need it for.

Emily (33:48): And the thing is like the expenses of the emergencies, whatever they’re gonna happen, whether you’re prepared for them or not. And so putting in that earlier effort at whatever stage you’re able to, to build it up then buys you the peace of mind indefinitely going forward as long as you can maintain the fund because again, the emergencies are gonna happen, but it’s whether or not it’s how you feel about it and how you can approach it, that is making all the difference. And again, it doesn’t have to be like a continual sacrifice for decades to maintain that emergency fund. ‘Cause again, once you build it up, all you have to do is pay for those emergencies. You would’ve paid for them anyway somehow. So I’m curious about that actually, because you said something like you worked hard to build the emergency fund back up after the first, you know, depletion of the fund for the car expense. So I’m just wondering like how you did that. Was it changes in your spending? Was it reducing your savings rate in other areas? Was it working additionally? How did you do that?

Amanda (34:37): Yeah, it was largely, um, cutting back a little bit on the percentage we’re putting away for retirement. Um, you know, there was a point during the pandemic where we maxed all those accounts out and that felt really great. This is not a year where we’re maxing out Roth HSA and 401k, 4 0 3 bs. Um, I would love to have another year like that. Um, but this isn’t that year and that’s okay. Um, you know, ultimately we just decided, and, and we didn’t stop contributions. We just kind of cut, cut back a little bit on that percentage to get the emergency fund back up to where we felt comfortable with it.

Emily (35:18): Uh, once again, I see a parallel in our stories here because we maxed out our available retirement contribution room for the first time ever in 2021. So that was like 2 401Ks, my employer side of my 401k and two Roth IRAs. We did it again in 22. In 2023. This is not happening again, . Um, because as I mentioned, we had the solar panels which we’re paying for upfront, like we’re not financing them. So we had to pull that money partially from savings and partially from cashflow to be able to do that. And so that alone, plus I just mentioned we may have a car purchase in our future, like yeah, uh, we’re still doing like one 401k, we’ll still do the two IRAs, but how much we contribute to that second 401k is not too clear at this point in the year. We’re recording this in, um, October, 2023, by the way. So, but that hap that’s, that’s how life is. I mean, it’s not all like perfect numbers on a spreadsheet, like perfect numbers in your financial plans, same thing happens every single year, right? You have to adapt in some ways. And now that we’ve had that taste of like what maxing out felt like those couple of times, I’m pretty sure we’ll get back to it at some point.

Amanda (36:18): It feels good, right?

Emily (36:19): Just not 2023

Amanda (36:20): Mm-Hmm, Well, congrats on the solar panels. That’s a bucket list project for us. And, uh, you know, to be able to pay for it without financing, it is not something that many people can say. So congrats to you.

Emily (36:31): Yeah, and that was, uh, it, it’s not all thanks to us, it’s partially some leftover parental gifts from when we bought the house. We got some gifts, we didn’t spend all of it on the down payment that is now being redirected to a literal investment in the house. But here in southern California, like our electricity bill is really outta control. So like the solar panels clearly are an ROI within just a few years. So it’s a, it it is literally an investment as well as, um, just like something we want to do.

Amanda (36:56): Yeah, I I was just hearing that, that the ROI is very good in California with your high energy costs, pg and e and um, and abundant sunshine in southern California.

The Future of Amanda’s FIRE Journey

Emily (37:06): Yeah. And I can only imagine it’s gonna get worse in terms of energy costs. So it’s, it’s again, looking long-term planning kind of thing. Um, so yeah, we’re excited about that. Okay, so we’re talking about the boring middle of five. We got the kids, we got the kids’ expenses, you know, you’re doing your best you can on your 401Ks, you know, managing with life’s, you know, circumstances that are thrown your way. What is the future of your fire journey? Or maybe like you mentioned earlier that you’re not looking for like a specific super soon end point. You’re very happy with your lifestyle in many ways. So like why do you still identify with pursuing fire and what do you think might change when you get to that official where financially independent point?

Amanda (37:45): Yeah, we don’t have a specific destination, but what we are pursuing is options and flexibility. We just know for us, uh, that someday, you know, thing things happen with life and with jobs and with health. So one day, maybe one of us, we’re both happy with our jobs right now, someday, maybe one of us is in a toxic work environment. Maybe, uh, something happens with our health or the health of one of our kids, or maybe one of our kids develops some really interesting crazy hobby that, uh, you know, might require some kind of specialty training or some travel or something like that. We don’t know. But, um, we want to be able to say yes to things that life will throw at us in the future. And so for us, this FI journey isn’t about we want to move to Portugal or Thailand in 2035. It’s, we want to be able to say yes to opportunities and to never have to stay in a situation that that isn’t good for us. We always want the option to be able to make changes so that we can, uh, just live a happy, supportive life that’s good for us and good for our kids.

Emily (39:03): I, I feel like the fire movement broadly over the past few years has moved in the direction of what you’re describing. It, it, you know, 10 years ago it maybe felt much more, um, boxed in , right? Like, this is my savings rate and I have X many years until I get to this point and I’m quitting my job. And that whole attitude, and as more and more people attempted that journey, they realized that maybe the journey couldn’t look exactly like that, or maybe they didn’t even want the end point that they had imagined like earlier. Um, so many people I think are attracted to fire because they’re unhappy with their job in some way. And if you do the work of getting into a job that supports your lifestyle, as we were talking about earlier, then there’s not such a strong impetus to get out, you know, ASAP.

Emily (39:45): But like you said, that things can change with your job and with your health. And so I think it’s so smart to not, and this is what we’re doing too, like not count on I’m gonna work till I’m 72, I’m gonna work till I’m 65, and my finances depend on my ability and the market’s ability to keep providing me with work opportunities until that point. Um, and I don’t know, our, our listeners right now are probably somewhat younger than we are, but I’m 38 and I’m, I’m not exactly, I’m not tired, I’m not slowing down, but I can see in the future that I don’t necessarily want to live this way for many, many, many more decades. And that, you know, going, seeing what our parents have been going through health wise and other people around us, like, you can’t, you can’t count on that necessarily. So, like you said, just to give yourself options earlier and earlier is, is a great gift.

Amanda (40:27): Yeah, that’s exactly how we feel. And I do think you’re right, the FI community has sort of shifted in that direction, and I always struggled with this idea of what’s your fi number and your FI date, because it, there were just so many assumptions about, uh, a consistency of your spending. Um, you know, something that I’ve learned over the past few years, I mean, what my expenses looked like as a grad student were nothing like what they looked like as a postdoc or anything like what they looked like right before we had kids. You know, now we have kids, we support our kids. Um, my mother-in-law lives with us, like life changes every year. And so I don’t know what my expenses are going to be in a few years, and that’s okay. But I do know that having built up a net worth isn’t something I’m likely to look back and go, wow, I really wish I hadn’t done that.

Amanda (41:17): So, um, yeah, we’ve never been able to pin down exactly what, um, you know, specific, um, I’ve never calculated a fi date or a fi number because there’s just too many assumptions in there that I’ve never felt comfortable saying. I know what those assumptions are, but we know that life will provide us with interesting opportunities. My husband and I are both lifelong learners. You know, we’re in education, we love to learn new things. I can’t rule out that one of us might wanna do a complete career pivot, go back to grad school or something someday. If, if that’s something one of us wants to do, I hope we’ll be able to do it.

Emily (41:52): Exactly, exactly. Similarly with us, like I’ve never calculated, well, I’m, I don’t, I don’t call myself like on the fi journey, but I’ve also never calculated a fi date or a FI number because like, frankly, my husband and I bought the house we currently live in and we are not planning on living here. Once our kids are out like well outta the house, we’re gonna downsize, and who knows what that’s going to look like. So like, even when you draw closer and closer, um, to achieving that, you know, what you think might be the net worth goal of, you know, achieving fire, um, you can still make big changes and, and you may need to, and especially with the, the family unit that keeps evolving with time. Um, like you said, there’s just, every year is different. And so yeah, we may be on the journey , um, for a while. There’s not really like an end point necessarily. And so many people, again, in the fire community who maybe they did leave their jobs, they find that they’re still earning money in just other interesting ways. And so it’s like, well, you didn’t even need to reach that number necessarily. You just needed to reach, uh, coast Five, for example, or some other point where you felt comfortable changing your work situation.

Amanda (42:51): Yeah, I think it’s a very rare person in the fire community that someone retires and stops earning money, at least from what I hear in the books and the podcasts. No one knows that person. They aren’t really out there. So yeah, people find things to do. Oftentimes that comes with some kind of an income or, you know, financial incentive. Um, but again, to have the ability to pursue that, to take a risk on building a business or go back to school to learn a new skill, whatever it is, um, we just wanna be able to say yes to it in the time that it feels right.

Emily (43:25): I love it. I love the vision, I love the description of your lifestyle. Sounds lovely to me. But, you know, , we found many common commonalities between us during this episode. The listener may, uh, not want a lifestyle that looks anything like either one of ours, but the whole point here is just that you can use your finances to help you achieve that lifestyle, whatever it is that you, um, most desire it to be by having that margin, having that savings rate and the things that we’ve talked about so far. Thank you so much, Amanda. And is there anything else that you’d like to add before we conclude the interview?

Amanda (43:55): No, just thank you for your time. I’ve really enjoyed the opportunity to talk to you to catch up a little bit on your story as well.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (44:02): Absolutely. And let’s, let’s end with the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another PhD? And that can be something that we’ve touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

Amanda (44:14): Yeah, I would say this is something that we’ve touched on a bit. Um, know that your life has phases and make the most of the phases you’re in. You know, I think as, as I started learning about finances, I felt so eager to be in some of the phases that I saw other people, and I felt so frustrated being at the beginning or not having the kind of income or options that I wanted. And, you know, as I’ve been on this path for a while, but still have a long way to go, at least to that, you know, completely financial in independent space, um, I’m just learning that every phase of life has, uh, some really beautiful benefits and great things you can do. And then there’s things you aren’t working on and it’s okay to not be accomplishing every goal, uh, all at the same time.

Emily (45:02): Hmm, absolutely. And that, um, extension of our discussion reminds me of, uh, the book Die With Zero by Bill Perkins. Have you read it? Oh my gosh.

Amanda (45:09): I have not, but it seems like everyone in the community has, so it’s most definitely on my reading list because I’ve, I’ve yet to hear someone say it hasn’t transformed their thinking and just changed how they’re approaching, uh, their life and their values.

Emily (45:24): It absolutely did for me as well. I would say that was like my book of 2022 that like changed my thinking. Um, and this isn’t necessarily about specifically tying financial goals to different life stages, but just tying things you want to do to different life stages. And it really made me think differently about the opportunities that were available to me when I was in graduate school, for example, um, or out of graduate school, but before having children and what, uh, regrets I have from those times. But also what I’m glad that I took advantage of because I could see that, you know, opportunities close as you move through different phases of life. And so it’s just, um, I don’t, it wasn’t like a sad book for me, but just really helping me think about how to maximize the stage that I’m in now and thinking about what can be put off until later stages of life in terms of, um, accomplishing them, whether that’s with your finances or in other areas. So I do highly recommend that book, um, to every reader. It may make you feel better actually about the, the stage that you’re in if you’re still in graduate school or something like that. So thank you for the thought. Thank you for the opportunity to plug one of my favorite books. Um, and Amanda, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast.

Amanda (46:25): Thank you, Emily.

Outtro

Emily (46:35): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This Grad Student-Parent Relied on University and State Benefits During a Tough Financial Period

December 4, 2023 by Jill Hoffman

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Laura Farrell-Wortman about her experience as a graduate student-parent at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Laura started her PhD when her daughter was an infant, so she was very intentional about choosing a PhD program that offered strong health insurance and a childcare subsidy. However, with a $9k/year stipend as the only income for a family of three, Laura’s family relied on the social safety net for a couple of years until both she and her husband increased their incomes. Laura shares the financial mindset she relied on to get through that tough period of time. Laura and Emily also discuss how the shifting political winds in Wisconsin in the early 2010s detrimentally affected the power of the grad student union at UW-Madison. Today, Laura works as a staff member at the University of Arizona Cancer Center and is making up for lost time in funding her retirement and her daughter’s college education.

Links mentioned in the Episode

This Grad Student-Parent Relied on University and State Benefits During a Tough Financial Period

Teaser

Laura (00:00): I also think it’s important to keep in mind you know, if you’re, if you’re feeling sort of weird about getting those benefits, that government benefits aren’t just you know, for people who are poor or struggling I get government benefits all the time. I get my mortgage interest deducted, right? I get my student loan interest deducted. Those are government benefits. And no, trust me, every rich person is getting every government benefit that they can. So you get your government benefits too. You earned them and you’re eligible for them.

Introduction

Emily (00:36): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:07): This is Season 16, Episode 7, and today my guest is Dr. Laura Farrell-Wortman. We’re discussing Laura’s experience as a graduate student-parent at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Laura started her PhD when her daughter was an infant, so she was very intentional about choosing a PhD program that offered strong health insurance and a childcare subsidy. However, with a $9k/year stipend as the only income for a family of three, Laura’s family relied on the social safety net for a couple of years until both she and her husband increased their incomes. Laura shares the financial mindset she relied on to get through that tough period of time. Laura and I also discuss how the shifting political winds in Wisconsin in the early 2010s detrimentally affected the power of the grad student union at UW-Madison. Today, Laura works as a staff member at the University of Arizona Cancer Center and is making up for lost time in funding her retirement and her daughter’s college education. I’ve recently joined several different social media platforms, particularly for posting short videos. I’m using the next few months as an experimental period, after which I’ll focus only on the platforms where I’ve gained the most traction. So please give me a follow and engage with me there! You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, and LinkedIn at either PFforPhDs or Personal Finance for PhDs. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e7/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Laura Farrell-Wortman.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:53): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Laura Ferrell Wartman. She is the current assistant director for academic programs at the University of Arizona Cancer Center, but we’re actually gonna be mostly talking about her experience as a PhD student at the University of Madison. So Laura, thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast, and will you please introduce yourself a little further for the audience?

Laura (03:16): I did my PhD in interdisciplinary Theater studies at the University of Wisconsin Madison. I was a graduate student there from 2011 to 2017. And some of the really formative things about my time there was that I actually arrived to to grad school with a newborn. And so I think that’s probably gonna shape a lot of what we discuss today.

Financial Mindset During Childhood and Early Adulthood

Emily (03:42): Yeah, so a grad student parent and a unique kind of angle on this. Certainly for our conversation, the finances of that are very interesting as we’ll see as we go through. I should mention that Laura and I met at the Graduate Career Consortium annual meeting, and so it’s always a great time when I get to meet people face to face. And just from the first very few interactions that we had in the room that we were in together, I knew that Laura had to come on the podcast. So I’m really glad that , we made this happen. Okay. So let’s go back even before you started graduate school, actually. So let’s talk about like how you grew up and how, what, what your financial mindset was like during your childhood, your early adulthood, maybe through college and post-college leading up to this time when you were in graduate school.

Laura (04:26): Yeah. so growing up I grew up in a very high income area. I’m from Princeton, New Jersey. But due to a lot of specific factors within my family there was a real trend of scarcity in my childhood. And so I really grew up thinking that money was something that was very elusive. Something that was sort of to be afraid of and something where there was just never a sense that there was enough of it. And so I think that that is something that has really impacted the way that I view personal finance, and especially the way that I view my career because I know that stability and predictability is something that is very, very important to me. And that is sometimes at odds with working in academia, especially if you are not on the tenure track. And so that it very much impacted like the way that I viewed how I was going into my career.

Finances After College

Emily (05:30): So coming out of college, I understand you, you worked for some years right before you started graduate school. Is that correct? So talk to me about like your finances during that time and that decision to go pursue your PhD, especially as it relates to these, the mindsets and, you know, everything that was going on with you financially.

Laura (05:47): Yeah. Again, I think the, the time that I had spent working was very much related to both the sort of you know, desire for that stability but also my desire to continue the research work that I had started in my undergrad. So I, I really started to explore Irish theater and particularly Irish theater of this particular contemporary period when I was an undergrad. And I knew that I wanted to continue doing that. My sister had gotten a PhD. And so that really helped me to kind of see the possibility and see, you know, the, the things that I could do with a PhD. And so I knew that I wanted to, to pursue that. But first I was gonna need to get a master’s degree and a master’s degree in theater, just the, the ROI, the return on investment there is terrible, right? Um and so I got a job at the University of Arizona. I was an admin assistant and that paid for my master’s degree. So that was like, that was like fully a financial decision in terms of where I was gonna go for my master’s degree. And I do not in any way regret that. You know, I came out of that, I paid $25 a semester in tuition. I would highly recommend it to anybody who is looking to get a degree that maybe they don’t feel like they can you know, get that ROI in. But, so that was I was working in higher ed administration essentially, and really like working my way up the ladder while I was doing that master’s degree in theater. And that set me up really, really excellently in terms of you know, when I went into my PhD, I knew the possibilities in higher ed for somebody who has a PhD in anything. Um you know, there really is a benefit in higher education to just having a PhD. And I have noticed a big difference in terms of my career options after my PhD as opposed to before at the same institute. Being a full-time student and a full-time employee is really difficult. It definitely had a lot of financial benefits. I got married during that time and my husband was able to get a, a master’s degree paid as well. And so, you know, there were a lot of benefits to it, but it was I certainly don’t wanna sugarcoat it because it was very, very difficult.

Emily (08:04): So, because you had this long-term plan of getting the PhD, using the job, using the master’s as a stepping stone to get there, I understand during that time you were also saving up, right? And so you went into the PhD with some savings. Can you talk about how you did that or why as well?

Laura (08:19): That was around 2008, 2009. Both my husband and I were very lucky not to have lost our income during the financial crisis. I actually went on to write my dissertation about the financial crisis. You know, our, our income was middling. But we had very few large financial responsibilities. We had our rent, which was moderate. We had no current payments. We didn’t have children at that point. We, we just are frugal people. And so it was you know, we had a goal of, you know, putting money aside, not even really for any particular goal. I think for me, just having that savings, again, coming back to this idea of you know, that rug could be pulled out from under you at any point. So having, you know, liquid cash savings is something that just makes me feel better. So we had a a cash savings of about $30,000 by the time my daughter was born. And that was just from, you know, the jobs we were working.

PhD Admissions and Pregnancy

Emily (09:24): Okay. So let’s talk about the admission season. You mentioned that you had at least, you know, a couple offers, one unfunded, this one from Madison that you ended up taking because you knew at that time that your daughter was on the way. How did that play into your decision of where to attend? Like what factors were you looking at?

Laura (09:44): Yeah, so so being pregnant during admission season was very interesting. I did not do any visits because I didn’t want anyone to see that I was pregnant. Discrimination against pregnant people is a very real thing. And I was really concerned that I would be you know, deprioritized if they knew that I had a child on the way. So it was important to me to know you know, what the, the funding situation and what the daycare situation was in any area that we were planning to, to move. Madison happened to be the best overlap of those things. Daycare is extremely expensive in Madison. It was actually when we were looking in Manhattan because I had applied at a couple schools in New York. The, the daycare costs were essentially the same between Madison and and Manhattan. But the University of Wisconsin has a really comprehensive student parent support, well, system of networks really. And so that was what enabled me to get a PhD in a very real way. And so I think it wasn’t necessarily the top thing that I was looking at, but it was, it ended up being the most influential part of my graduate experience.

Emily (11:11): Wow. was this something that, I guess, I don’t know specifically like the timing of everything, but is this something that you were looking at at the time that you were choosing which schools to apply to? Or was it only by the time, okay, I’ve already applied to these sets of schools, now I know my daughter’s on the way and I need to, you know, evaluate how they’re doing on this front as well?

Laura (11:31): It was a little bit of both. There’s, you know, my, my specialty was Irish theater. There’s not, you know, a ton of schools where that’s going to be a strong focus. And admittedly, some of the schools that I applied to, it wasn’t a strong focus. It just was going to be a better you know, personal situation. But I think that there was a real you know, there, there’s sort of that cliche of like, you know, there’s never, there’s never the right time to have kids, and I think that’s very true. But for us it was like, well, we wanna, we know we wanna have a kid. I know I wanna get a PhD. I, I just think that these things can probably be true at the same time. You know, I was 30 going into my PhD which I’m, I, I’m, you know, really glad that I chose that point in my life to, to have my daughter. But I think, you know, it’s a, I think if people sometimes will try to time it out in ways that I think are never really gonna be, gonna be perfect. And so for me it was a, yeah, it was just kind of saying like, well, I want these two things in my life, and they’re just gonna have to, I’m gonna have to figure it out. And we did .

PhD Program Offer

Emily (12:47): Okay. So what else were you looking at in terms of the factors? We talked about the childcare subsidy, but like, what was your stipend offer, for example, and was that in line with what you were seeing at other institutions? I understand you looked carefully at the health insurance, so let’s talk about more like those other factors as well.

Laura (13:03): Yeah. so my stipend offer so I did, I did end up getting an offer of, of support from UW. This was in 2011. It was only $9,000 a year which is, I mean, it doesn’t approach a living wage. And again, I think that there are a number of different factors that go into that. I think, you know, part of it is that you know, in, in a lot of fields they have established minimums for you know, research assistants, graduates assistants and things like that. In, in theater that in the arts in general, that absolutely does not exist. And for state universities, that is also a difficulty. But yes my offer was $9,000 a year. The that did not include coverage of my fees. So I was still paying about a thousand dollars a year in fees. I was still paying, you know, reasonable but relatively market rate, rent to student housing on campus. So most of my money kind of ended up going back to the university. I, I did have really excellent health insurance though, which is again, to be attributed to the work of the union. Graduate students received the same health insurance as staff members and I didn’t know at the time how important that was going to become, but I was, I was diagnosed with a chronic illness my second year, and probably I would’ve had to leave grad school if my health insurance hadn’t been so good. So it was, it was very, really, really important, to, to have that health insurance.

Finances in Grad School With a New Baby and a Low Income

Emily (14:55): I wanna hear more about how you actually made the finances work, like, especially in this first year of graduate school. Okay. Like, you’ve got the new baby, you’re at a new place, you’re in student housing, like you’re not making very much money. You’ve got your husband to support as well, or, you know, your husband is factoring into this as well. So like, how did that go , especially like starting in that first year?

Laura (15:15): Yeah, it was, it was really tricky. My husband was looking for work but it was, it was really difficult to find. His background had been as an elementary school teacher and he had, he had done some work as like a paralegal. His, his main sort of goal and skillset was in horticulture. And that is what he does full-time now. But at the time, and in Madison it was really difficult to find those jobs. And so he, we also had this child, this infant who needed daycare, and infant daycare is just, I mean, my God, it is so expensive. So he was thinking, well, you know, I have this education background. Lemme see if I can just get a job working at a daycare and maybe that’ll be that’ll subsidize. Eleanor’s Care didn’t really work that way. He did get a job working in daycare. But essentially the money he made just, again, it went right back to the place where he was working because it was so expensive. And so there was no, there really wasn’t a benefit to, to that work. And he, he was able to sort of cobble together a couple of things, you know, sort of, sort of like temp work for that year. But for the most part, he was a stay at home dad. And so he was taking care of our daughter, and again, we were just using that like 25, $30,000 that we had in savings. So yeah, I would say we were living off of, I don’t know, like 35, 36,000 a year for that first year.

Emily (16:52): But not of income, right? Because that’s savings supplementing, yeah.

Laura (16:55): Yeah, yeah. So really it was like, yeah, that was, you know, like a few thousand bucks that I got from my TA work. And then just pulling it straight from savings. So in, in the next, you know, couple years when I was able to I got a a second job within the department working for the theater company of the department. My as my stipend went up a bit I got like a halftime TA instead of a third time ta. So I was able to get my income by the end up to, I think like 18, 19,000 per year, which felt it, it felt like so much money at the time, . And by that point, my husband had started working for the grounds department at UW Madison. And so you know, he was bringing in more money, but not, you know, a ton. Um and so we were, we were making it work, but there was, there was nothing going to retirement. There was nothing going to savings, there was nothing going to my daughter’s college fund, things like that. So we were we were definitely paycheck to paycheck but again, I didn’t have to take those loans for living. And I, I didn’t have to take out student loans to, to survive during that six year period, which is really, really helping now in terms of making up for those, those lost years of, of wealth building.

Emily (18:17): Yeah, let’s talk about that more in a second.

Commercial

Emily (18:21): Emily here for a brief interlude! I’m hard at work behind the scenes updating my suite of tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2023. These pre-recorded educational workshops explain how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. For the 2023 tax season starting in January 2024, I’m offering four versions of this workshop, one each for US citizen/resident graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs and non-resident graduate students and postdocs. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the end users, graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs, can access them for free. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they sponsor one of my tax preparation workshops for you and your peers? I’d love to receive a warm introduction to a potential sponsor this fall so we can hit the ground running in January serving those early bird filers. You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Now back to our interview.

Using Government Benefits: Food Stamps, WIC, and Child Care Subsidies

Laura (20:12): Yeah, so because our income was so low we were eligible for, well, because our income was so low, and because we had an infant and I was within, you know, a a couple years of, of having given birth. We were eligible for a few different mechanisms. We were eligible for food stamps, we were eligible for WIC, which is stands for like Women and Infant and Children Support. And we were eligible for childcare subsidy from the state government. And so we did take advantage of each of those. We received, I wanna say like four or $500 a month in food stamps, which, you know, so that paid for like, all of our food, and that was so, so vital to us being able to, to, to make it work. WIC provided for for Formula I was unable to breastfeed after the first, you know, like couple of weeks. And so we, we had to have formula. But formula again is incredibly expensive. It provided for, you know, certain amounts and certain types of food. It was you know, more kind of staples, whereas food stamps is a lot you know, had kind of cast a wider net. And then for our daycare, once Eleanor ended up going to daycare, we were able to supplement UWs contribution with the state support. And so from there we were able to get our month, and that still didn’t cover everything for daycare, but we were able to get our monthly payment down to something reasonable.

Emily (21:55): And how long did you end up using those benefits for? Like as your, your income is increasing as your daughter’s getting older, like did those phase out over time?

Laura (22:04): Yeah, absolutely. We were on food stamps and wic for about a year. And actually that makes us essentially like the standard user of government benefits. The standard user of government benefits is white, and they were on it for about a year. And so I think that there are a lot of misconceptions about people who are relying on certain types of government benefits. But, but in truth, they mostly look like me. And it was something that we used in the short term until we were able to get our income to the point where we could pay for those things on our own. I think we used the state benefits for daycare for like two years.

Emily (22:47): Can you talk a little bit more about how, I guess maybe the decision or your like, willingness to access those benefits stemmed from your money mindset more generally in your experiences in your earlier parts of life?

Laura (23:03): Yeah, absolutely. So there were a number of things that allowed, allowed me to, to access those benefits and sort of allowed me to access them in a way that I felt confident about doing. I think it’s really important, first and foremost to say that I am white. And so, you know, being white and, you know, middle class essentially there was a lot less stigma about me using those benefits. And so I think that that is, is a barrier for a lot of people. I also had a working car and that is not nothing. So the ability for me to apply for those benefits to go pick up my WIC checks, because the WIC is like actual physical large checks, which are really embarrassing to use at the grocery store. And I had to go and get them but I didn’t have to use a bus in the, you know, Wisconsin winters. Um I had a flexible schedule. I was a grad student, right? I didn’t have to like tell my boss, Hey, I need to leave to get my, my food stamps. So there was a lot of privilege that went into being able to do that readily, easily, which is not to say it was an easy process. It was still a, you know, more of red tape and paperwork. But, but I made it work. And I think too that, you know, my, my feeling really was like, well, you know, I’ve you know, I’ve worked since I was 15. I’ve paid into this system. I, you know, if I’m eligible for these benefits, then I’m gonna take these benefits. And, and I still think that more people should have that mindset, right? Like, if you are a grad student right now listening to this and you are eligible for food stamps, go get food stamps. Like if you are eligible for food stamps, it means that you are at a level where you have a need, and this is just providing you with food. Like food, please go and do that. I also think it’s important to keep in mind you know, if you’re, if you’re feeling sort of weird about getting those benefits that government benefits aren’t just you know, for people who are poor or struggling I get government benefits all the time. I get my mortgage interest deducted, right? I get my student loan interest deducted. There’s all kinds of benefits that I get from, you know, having like, like a Roth IRA, right? I get tax advantages. Those are government benefits. And no, trust me, every rich person is getting every government benefit that they can. So you get your government benefits too. You earned them and you’re eligible for them. And so that was kind of the mindset that I, that I brought into that. And it, I’m not saying that it was always easy, you know, like I said, with food stamps or with EBT as they call it now, you get a card that looks just like a credit card and you, and you pay with that. And, and to me it’s a very dignified system when you’re actually using them. Whereas wic it’s like, I, I never had an instance of using the WIC checks where the cashier didn’t roll their eyes, didn’t sigh, didn’t sort of like give me a like, oh, great, now I gotta deal with these. And that is a real deterrent. Like, it was, it was embarrassing. And that is so unacceptable. So, so I think that there are ways that probably the government could make this a little easier, but they maybe aren’t inclined to. But yeah, I think that that was all wrapped up in, you know, again, feeling like, well, I’m a middle class white woman, I’m still going to use these.

Emily (26:44): Well, I do appreciate you talking about this like so openly. It’s something that graduate students are sometimes not aware that they can access these kinds of benefits, or in some places they actually might not be able to, even if their right income would put them at the right level because of their student status or because of the type of income that they have. So it’s certainly a state by state thing. But I really appreciate you speaking about how, like, how you thought about this at the time and how you felt like, yep, I need this, it’s a benefit. I’m gonna take it. Let’s do this even if it’s a little bit embarrassing. Because I do think that, like, like you said, you were only on it temporarily and it really helped you to move past the, the temporary income crunch that you all were in. I mean, you’re moving to a new place, you have a brand new baby, like yeah, a lot of people need help at that time of life, and you happen to access, you know, this these various social safety net aspects for that help. So anyway, thank you so much for talking about this. I really appreciate that.

Grad Student Union at UW Madison

Emily (27:38): So you’ve already mentioned a couple of times the union, the grad student union at UW Madison and how it had negotiated for the great healthcare and like this parental benefits and all this stuff. Could you talk more about your experience with the union during the time that you were a graduate student and also how the overall political climate in Wisconsin at that time, kind of the interaction between those two?

Laura (28:01): Yes. So I, I think I’m gonna do that sort of in reverse because the political climate in Wisconsin sort of heavily influenced my experience with the union. So the year before I started at UW Madison, Wisconsin had gone through a major change with Scott Walker was the new governor. And he had grand designs on leadership of the GOP think we can all recall his presidential campaign. And so one of those was to remake the labor landscape in Wisconsin. Wisconsin has historically been a a very strong labor stronghold. You know, really part of that rust belt that was, was, you know, built and facilitated by unions in a, in a, in a lot of ways. And so new legislation in Wisconsin the year prior to my arriving essentially stipulated that unions had to disband and remake themselves and that there couldn’t be a requirement for dues and things like that. And so this was you know, anybody who’s done any sort of you know, organizational work with people understands that if you have to disband your membership and, and re-up, that is a ton of work. And that’s, you’re not, you’re never gonna get everyone back. And that, of course, was the point. So there were major protests of which graduate students at UW Madison were a really important part. But it meant that by the time I arrived, the union was really trying to reconstitute itself, and I think they deserve a lot of credit for how much work that was and, and the fact that they, you know, are still an ongoing institution within uw. So they deserve a lot of credit for that. But it did change the, you know, the leadership, it changed the the makeup of the union and it changed the resources of the union. Uh so the, the union was not what it, what it had been. And the university was thankfully, you know, still honoring the commitments that they had made to the union prior to that 2011 legislation. But it did change things. Unfortunately and, you know, it’s, it’s tragic that, you know, that was, that was the, the planned outcome and it worked. But it did mean that the, the union had less power. It had less people to do the important work and I believe it had fewer actually full-time staff members which, which really made a difference. And so my, my sort of experience with it was like the, it just didn’t have the legs that it used to. But I will say that you know, having any sort of union as a graduate student can be a powerful thing. There was one instance in which I you know, I had a TA job and I was being told that it was a requirement that I work beyond my contract. And I, it was really great to be able to say like, okay, well I, like, since I’m a union member, I actually can’t. So let me just go to the union and talk to them about this request. And lo and behold I no longer had to work beyond the confines of my contract.

Emily (31:44): What I’m taking from this is that you can’t be complacent about the benefits that are offered by your university and, and if there’s a union by the union, what the union has negotiated for, because like what I’m learning kind of as I talk to people in different states and people at different stages of the unionization like process is that like, like what you experienced in Wisconsin, like things can shift politically at the state level or at the national level, and that can really shift what happens at the university level and with unions or the formation of unions. And so it’s not something you can sort of take for granted. And you’re always gonna have to be responding to those like shifting wins, I guess . And so I, so I’m learning that like, just because there is a union doesn’t mean the union is safe forever, right? You have to keep advocating for yourself and keep organizing.

Laura (32:33): And I think that that is also true for universities. And I think that part of what frustrated me sometimes about our union and, and sometimes frustrates me in in general in terms of like, you know, the way that grad students can sometimes approach their relationship to their university is that there is a sense that the university has the resources to do everything it wants to do and just won’t. And that could not be further from the truth. This is something where, you know, having worked in higher education for my entire career universities are so much more hamstrung by a lack of resources by legislatures that are not supportive or maybe di you know, directly hostile and hamstrung by the need to consistently be getting federal grants. That it’s, it’s so much more complex of a, a situation than I think a lot of grad students that I worked with at UW wanted to acknowledge that this was not us against the university universities in general you know, the people who are in them, they are not here to get rich because we’re never gonna get rich working for a state university.

Emily (33:47): Mm-Hmm. And I think, I mean, your point is, especially I think well made for public universities that have to deal with these state level like issues again and their funding, but of course, all universities are dealing with the grant funding that you mentioned from the federal government and whether it’s there and in what amount and, and so forth. So thank you so much for pointing out. Like it’s not, it’s really not, especially I would say the individuals like at the lower levels working within universities, they’re not the enemies of the students. They’re not trying to work against the students. Like, we’re just all trying to survive within the system. Okay.

Impact of Financial Experiences in Grad School on Current Financial Life

Emily (34:20): In what way has your financial experience as a graduate student continued to affect your financial life to today? Like you mentioned earlier that you did not have any room in your budget for like retirement savings, for example, and so by the time you got out of graduate school, I’m doing some quick math. I think you were 36, so you can talk about that or any other ways that, that, that experience has still had like a financial effect on your life at the present.

Laura (34:44): So yeah, the, the, the period during which I was not able to be saving for retirement or saving for my daughter’s college education that so far has been the most impactful aspect of my finances. Again, I didn’t have to to take on those loans. And so you know, that my, my, my student loan payment has not really gone up. But the, I think it’s important for anybody who is in a PhD or considering doing a PhD to understand the opportunity cost that, you know, taking that time out of your life when you’re in your, you know, twenties or thirties, that is gonna be the most impactful period in which you can be saving for retirement because of compound interest. So the more that you can put away when you’re young, the less you’ll have to put away when you are older. Um and so, you know, know now that I am 42 and you’re right, I was in graduate school from 30 to 36. I am having to put more away towards retirement, and I probably will just have a smaller retirement nest egg. I am again, lucky to be in a university where in a state where I am in a pension system. So this is pretty rare to have a defined benefit pension. But the, the pension is not what it used to be. The pension will cover maybe 50% of my expenses in retirement which is great. I’m certainly not complaining. But it does mean that like I still have to, beyond the amount I put into the pension system, I have to be putting cash away into a Roth IRA. And that’s tricky because at this point I am I am saving for my own retirement. We’re saving for my husband’s retirement we’re saving for my daughter’s college education. So my daughter’s college education is also a strong determinant of where I work because the university I work for that is our local state university offers 75% tuition discount to the children of staff members. So that’s our college plan , right? Which is kind of rough. Like I, I was always kind of taught that like, you know, I had a lot of options for college and for my daughter that is not the case. And I think, you know, for, for Gen Z in general they’re much more savvy than us elder millennials are about these things at their age. But but it still means that like, okay, you know, the, the college savings that I do are aligned with the idea that 75% of her tuition will be, will be covered. Um and that again, is not you know, that was a, a very specific choice that I have made you know, to to to, to remain at a, you know, at a university where that is gonna be one of the benefits. So, you know, that’s also something where, that’s a decision that I made based on the financial situation I was in in grad school. At the same time you know, having the PhD has increased my, my earning potential greatly. And so even though you know, I am at a state university where I can just expect that the, you know, compensation is going to be lower than in the private sector I still am able to to make the kind of salary that allows me to, to save for all those things at once. But you know, there’s still you know compromises to be made. And that, you know, frugality that that my husband and I have always really, really had, has, has come in handy because I think it also can be very tempting, particularly for students who are coming right out of graduate school to have a lot of like lifestyle creep. And, you know, your, your paycheck gets bigger and so you’re spending more money. And I think the, the, the more that you can avoid that, the better.

Emily (38:42): Yeah, you really have to have that awareness right from that first paycheck they receive, you know, post PhD, post postdoc, that there’s a lot more on your to-do list financially that there probably wasn’t graduate school if you weren’t able to get to all those items like retirement and, and college savings and so forth. But I think your story sounds like pretty like par for the course, right? Like the PhD increased your earning potential, but you lost the, to a degree, the time value of money for the time that you spent during the PhD. And so there has to be, there’s the trade off, right? But then again, I’m sure you’re in a career that you find very fulfilling, and so there’s also that aspect of it. Yeah. Okay.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (39:22): So Laura, as we wrap up, I’m gonna ask you the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD that could be for a current graduate student, a prospective graduate student, like we’ve mostly talked about, it could be someone more at your current career stage, however you would like to take that,

Laura (39:40): You know, addressing PhD students and particularly PhD students who are going on the job market or are close to graduation. I really want to encourage you to keep in mind that you have a lot of options. I think that there are PhDs who will take a truly suboptimal offers like adjuncting that they do because they don’t feel that they have any options. And the truth is that with a PhD, even if, even if your job is not specifically in your field, my current job is not in the field of Irish theater. But you have options. And please don’t let academia make you feel as though you have a responsibility to, to take these sort of really terrible adjunct offers because that helps perpetuate the adjuncting system, frankly. And you have the ability to, to to have the same sort of self-worth the same sort of you know, fulfillment, even the same publication opportunities in some, in some cases without having to to stay in that subsistence situation. So just really, really understand your own earning power because no matter what field you are in, if you have a PhD, you have pretty significant earning power.

Emily (41:11): Hmm. And even pivoting outside of academia, like within academia, you feel like you’re a dime a dozen because literally your university is graduating like whatever, hundreds of PhDs each year and probably several even from your own discipline. And so you feel like, like you’re nothing. Some people might feel like they’re nothing special. But if you take your training and those translatable skills into another context, you will likely find that you actually have a lot to bring to that other context and that you can be paid very nicely for it. So thank you so much for that, the kind of like shot of confidence to those people who are in that at that point in their careers. So Laura, it’s been absolutely wonderful to have you on the podcast. I’m so glad I ran into you at GCC and thank you so much for agreeing to give this interview.

Laura (41:56): Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate It.

Outtro

42:04 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This Grad Student-Parent Managed Her Money and Time in the Bay Area

October 23, 2023 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Ilana Horwitz, an assistant professor of Jewish Studies and Sociology at Tulane University. Ilana started her PhD at Stanford when her first child was nine months old, and she had a second child after her third year. Emily and Ilana discuss the frugal tactics and time management strategies that she employed while her children were young. They also discuss the income disparity and gender dynamics that came into play between Ilana and her husband during that period and when Ilana was on the academic job market. Finally, Ilana makes the case for having children as a grad student instead of as a faculty member. If you are a parent in academia, whether as a grad student or full-time employee, don’t miss this episode!

Links mentioned in the Episode

How This Grad Student-Parent Managed Her Money and Time in the Bay Area

Teaser

Ilana H (00:00): I think really creatively and outside the box about how you can garner resources in your community, in your social network to help you sort of accomplish things. And it’s not necessarily like a specific amount of money, but that, you know, if you have a talent, like maybe you can tutor somebody in statistics and in exchange they can watch your kids for a couple of hours.

Introduction

Emily (00:32): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.

Emily (01:03): This is Season 16, Episode 4, and today my guest is Dr. Ilana Horwitz, an assistant professor of Jewish Studies and Sociology at Tulane University. Ilana started her PhD at Stanford when her first child was nine months old, and she had a second child after her third year. Ilana and I discuss the frugal tactics and time management strategies that she employed while her children were young. We also discuss the income disparity and gender dynamics that came into play between Ilana and her husband during that period and when Ilana was on the academic job market. Finally, Ilana makes the case for having children as a grad student instead of as a faculty member. If you are a parent in academia, whether as a grad student or full-time employee, don’t miss this episode!

Emily (01:50): This is your official invitation to please volunteer as a guest for one of the upcoming episodes! I love that on this podcast I get to feature PhDs and PhDs-to-be who are almost exclusively regular people and learn and share their real-life stories and strategies. Please go to PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ and fill out the quick form, and I’ll be in touch over email. I look forward to interviewing you in the coming months! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Ilana Horwitz.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Ilana H (02:57): Sure. Thank you so much for having me on on this podcast, Emily. I am an assistant professor of Jewish Studies and Sociology at Tulane University. I went to graduate school at Stanford in the Graduate School of Education and I got my PhD in Sociology of Education and Jewish Studies. But I had a long career before I started graduate school. I worked in management consulting and in several sort of researchy and evaluation kind of roles and a couple of startups. And so I didn’t start my PhD until I was 30. And then after I did my PhD, I stayed at Stanford for a two year postdoc and then joined the Tulane faculty. And I’m now in my third year at Tulane.

Ilana’s Book: The Entrepreneurial Scholar

Emily (03:44): Excellent. And please tell us the subject of this book, ’cause I can already see there’s overlap with your professional history there and the subject and everything.

Ilana H (03:51): Yeah, absolutely. The title of the book is called The Entrepreneurial Scholar and it’s really a book about how early career scholars and PhD students can think about generating influential ideas while working with very limited resources and navigating an environment of high uncertainty. This is something that people who are entrepreneurial are really good at, but people who are really good at school tend to not be as good at. So it’s really a book that tries to get people to think differently about the dispositions and sort of habits that they bring to graduate school.

Emily (04:26): I love it. Absolutely. There’s no way I’m gonna miss this when it comes out. So we are recording this interview in September, 2023. The book is expected to be out in summer 2024, and I will have Ilana back on the pro on the podcast during that post book period promotional period. ’cause I’m so curious about this whole process, not just the subject of the book, but the making of the book. So is really exciting, but this is not our subject for today. Our subject for today is the fact that you had a child before you even started graduate school, and then you had another one during graduate school. And so we’re gonna talk about kind of the financial stuff that you did to, you know, make that work while you were a graduate student. And so let’s start off by talking about kind of what was your family structure and and what were the finances like at that time and all those details.

Family Structure and Finances During Graduate School

Ilana H (05:09): Yeah, so I had my first kid in January of 2013. And at the time I was working and I had applied to graduate school. And ironically today actually my kids are off from school. So if you’re watching the video here, they are in the background. here, they are much older. But I had Aria I was working and then when I had her, I, a few weeks after she was born, actually my advisor called me and said he had accepted me into the program and so I decided not to go back to work. And I was able to stay home with my first one for eight months. And then I started graduate school when she was nine months old. We had our second baby between my third and fourth year we actually tried to plan it to h her between my second and third year because of sort of but it takes so long to get pregnant sometimes that I realized that planning. It was a very silly attempt. At the time, in terms of our finances, we were pretty financially stable. My husband and I had both worked at that point for about a decade. And so we had a lot of money saved up and he had a pretty stable job in the Bay Area. I had about $40,000 of loans from undergrad and from my first master’s at Teachers Columbia. But they were in deferment and we, I had a pretty generous stipend from Stanford. It was only, it was $25,000, but I had an additional sort of $20,000 for four for a couple of years from an outside source. So I was making about 45,000. But we had very high expenses. So living, we lived on Stanford’s campus in the family housing, which I’ll talk a lot about. But we, our rent started at about $2,000 at the start of graduate school. And then it was up to 2,700 by the time I finished graduate school a month. And then we had really high childcare expenses. We did put our children in daycare full-time. And basically by the time sort of my last few years of grad school, we were paying $50,000 a year in childcare expenses. ’cause Each kid cost over $2,000 per year. So that pretty much all wiped out my entire salary. But we did have my husband’s income to get us through it.

Emily (07:39): Wow, okay. Thank you so much for all those details. So it sounds like your stipend from Stanford at least initially was around 45 k. Did you get any supplement for like a childcare grant or anything? I’ve, I’ve noticed that some other students have had access to those kinds of resources.

Ilana H (07:55): I did not. While I was at Stanford, there was a big push to help parents because parents were really struggling. One of my classmates, actually, Tina Cheuk, somebody you could talk to someday started a whole campaign around mothers and parents in academia. And as a result of this like amazing advocacy work that she did, I think parents were able to apply for grants of up to $10,000, partly to cover not just childcare, but also healthcare. My understanding is that the healthcare expenses through Stanford were in extraordinarily expensive and people weren’t able to pay for it. I was on my husband’s insurance, and so we were able to do it that way. But the sort of advocacy work that she did made a big difference to some parents. And I think by the time I left, there were more resources available to parents.

Emily (08:44): Thank you so much for telling us about that effort because it just goes to show that these advocacy efforts are effective in, in various places. I love to hear that. Tell me a little bit about, more about like, okay, you said we’re basically trying to basically getting by on your husband’s salary because yours is effectively going to childcare. I just wanna know because you said it’s high cost of living, but presumably your husband also has a good Bay Area type salary. I’m trying to understand how much of a strain this was being in graduate school. So like, were you guys still able to invest? Were you guys still able to save or was it like, Hmm, nope. Like there’s no, the building towards the future is the career thing here. It’s not the financial thing at this time.

Ilana H (09:22): We were able to, I think, continue saving, but part of I think my own challenge was that I I had grown up sort of like a, as a working class immigrant, my family moved from the former Soviet Union when I was seven. And then my my, my parents had sort of like pretty working class jobs and then my father unexpectedly passed away when I was 14. And so I think having grown up sort of in some economic precarity and also seeing my mom really having to figure out her finances on her own has always made me very like nervous about being reliant on somebody else’s income, which is, you know, nothing that my, is my husband’s fault, but it’s my own sort of struggle. And so even though we were fine financially, I was constantly trying to think about ways to sort of be frugal, ways to be creative about resources which I know we’re gonna talk about. But I, I felt like I had to sort of because I wasn’t working and I’d been so used to working, I felt like I had to find all sorts of ways to save money and be really, really efficient with our resources.

Creative Financial Strategies During Graduate School

Emily (10:25): So what kinds of things were you doing? Like what could be helpful maybe for other people in a similar situation to hear in terms of how you could keep a lid on expenses related to your children?

Ilana H (10:36): I tried to think really creatively about using and harnessing the communal resources of the Stanford community. So I mentioned that we lived in graduate student housing and our apartments were tiny. But what was amazing is that we had these communal playgrounds and I started spending time hanging out with other parents, you know, on the swing set and whatever. And I realized that like everyone had a lot of really interesting skills and I was like, how can we all sort of bring together all of our unique skills to help each other? And so one thing I knew I was good at was taking family photographs. I had like a background in photography, I really loved it. And so I posted, there was like a parent listerv, and so I posted an email saying like, I would like to barter my photography services in exchange for somebody coming to help me build my furniture. I don’t have time to build my baby crib and the dresser and all these things. And so if you come and build my furniture, I will take family photos. And so that was one thing I started doing. I also sent out an email saying, who wants to do like a meal swap? Because during my winter breaks, spring breaks and summer breaks, I would go on a intensive sort of cooking frenzy where I would cook a ton of stews and soups and chilies and then freeze them in mason jars. And I was like, but I would get sick of the same soup. So I was like, if other people did this, we could have a big soup swap. So I thought about doing that. I also realized, you know, your kids wear some of their clothes like five times and they’re brand new. And so I started organizing baby clothing swaps and also not just for clothing, but like strollers and cribs and all these other things. And I, I think the key thing was like not being shy to ask and sort of put the ideas out there because I think some people feel like, oh you know, I have to, we live in this very individualistic society and I had to get out of this mindset and think about what is the, what can the community do together that’s bigger than what all of us can do individually. I also started all of our houses were attached and I realized that our baby monitors would reach across homes. And so like we had good friends who lived like one door down, like there was somebody separating us. But our monitor reached over there and I said like, we wanna go out to dinner. We don’t wanna pay for our babysitter once we put our baby to bed. Can we give you the monitor and like you just check on our baby? And we did that and we, and then we would exchange those sort of services for each other. So those were some of the ways that I creatively thought about using and leveraging all the parents in the community to help each other.

Emily (13:15): Well, I love those ideas, not just for the specifics of baby clothes or bartering services, but because you were leading by example and you’re still leading by example by sharing this with us on the podcast. So did you find that people were very receptive to these ideas? I would be if I heard them, then again, I’m a pretty frugal person. So how, how were they received?

Ilana H (13:34): Yeah, I think they were received great. I think people were really in the same boat. And I think everybody was trying to make ends meet. There was a lot of stay-at-home parents and graduate housing. It was very typical for men to be getting their graduate degrees and for moms to be full-time with childcare responsibilities. Because basically if you have more than like two kids, it doesn’t sort of make sense to pay for care. It’s often, you know, cheaper for the mom to stay home. And so people who had three or four children did that arrangement and they were still really struggling. So people, yeah, definitely embraced the idea of communal sharing. They loved it. And we also lived in the Bay area where there was like a mentality of recycle, reuse, repurpose. So I think that helped us also,

Emily (14:30): Yeah, my mind is boggling a little bit, thinking about a family being supported by a grad student or postdoc kind of salary or stipend in the Bay area. But I know this often comes up for, for instance, international students and postdocs, right, whose spouse doesn’t have a working type visa, so they literally have no choice. But to be, you know, the stay at home parent or a stay at home home spouse wow, okay. That’s such an awesome idea and I think it really helped in your case that you all did live. I mean, it sounds like you put things out to the parent listserv, but also many of you were actually neighbors. And so that like proximity and the familiarity that that breeds, I would imagine helped a lot with that initiative.

Ilana H (15:08): Yeah, because I think what that did was develop a sense of trust. Like it wasn’t random people who who you didn’t know who you were trying to collaborate with, right? We had this like, I’m a sociologist, so I’ll just say like we had developed this sort of these networks of trust of social capital. And so I knew that like giving my monitor to you and other parent, I knew who they were, I knew who their children were, their children had probably played at my house. There was a sort of sense of trust and reciprocity that developed by the virtue of the fact that we were all in the same boat and living in close proximity to each other. I also took advantage of a bunch of some Stanford resources that I think some parents don’t, didn’t even know exist. And I wanna put this out there, like for students to see if this exists on your campus. So Stanford dining halls had amazing food and children ate for free, completely for free. And so not only did I not have to cook and clean for my kids, you know, but also it was free. And so we went to the dining hall on a very, very regular basis. It was also like nice to see other families there. It got my children to try new foods, but that was an incredible resource. I also did some things like I co-oped at my kids’ school. If you co-op meaning like you volunteer in the classroom for two hours a week, you can get a discounted tuition rate. So I did that. I also served on the board, which got me 10% off of the tuition. And then I also thought creatively about outsourcing and when I wanted to outsource things. So I come from a business background. Sometimes I like to think like an economist. And so there was a period of time in my sort of fifth year I was taking really some really hard classes trying to finish my work on my dissertation. And it was just too much and I just like wasn’t able to do all the cooking. And so I had talked to one of the parents I’m sorry, not the parents, one of the teachers in my kid’s school and she mentioned like she lived on her own. She was kind of lonely and she loved to cook. And I was like, would you like to come and like spend a couple hours at my house cooking on a Saturday or Sunday and I will pay you? And so I paid her $25 an hour and she came and she did a couple hours of cooking that basically would hold us over for the rest of the week. And the way I thought about that expense was like I was also doing some side hustling and had some consulting jobs on the side and I was like, for me to do an hour of work, you know, I would generally get paid, you know, between like 50 to a hundred dollars depending on the job. Sometimes it was a lot less. But generally I was like, for an hour of my work I could basically get, you know, several hours of time from for somebody to cook. And so I thought about outsourcing in a pretty strategic way because I had this other income coming in from side hustling.

Emily (17:58): Yeah, I love that point and thank you so much for bringing it up. A lot of people within the personal finance community talk about your hourly rate, like your hourly compensation rate and say, ah, anything you know, below that you should outsource it if you can get it done for less. I don’t quite agree with that, but in your situation there’s an exact corollary, which you just said this was not your base salary that you were comparing to. This was the extra hours you could put towards the side hustle that you were comparing to. So it directly freed up your time for that particular income source. So that’s why the comparison works really well. And I love this idea of you like, you know, in your first four years of graduate school doing all this batch cooking during your breaks and like getting prepared and getting your family used to the system of we eat freezer meals and we do this bulk cooking stuff. And then after that realizing, oh wow, I don’t, I now don’t even have time for the cooking part of it, but we’re already used to kind of the system and so you can just outsource that last leg of it and make it work for you. So yeah, thank you so much for like talking about your thought process through that. Was there anything else that you considered outsourcing other than cooking or, or did outsource? I mean,

Ilana H (19:03): Occasionally I would outsource some childcare help. So my kids were in school full time, which was like eight to six. And occasionally I would have people some of their teachers would come on the weekend and I would pay them hourly to watch my kids if I ne needed to do something over the weekend and couldn’t real, you know, ask my husband to sort of watch the kids yet again. I don’t think there was anything else that I can think of.

Time Management During Graduate School

Emily (19:29): Okay. Well now that we’re into kind of the time management portion of the conversation, can you share with us any other like time management related strategies used to make this period of your life work?

Ilana H (19:40): Yeah, so I in the beginning of graduate school, probably my first and second year I would put my, my daughter, I just had one at the time and she would go to bed pretty early, right? That’s the great thing about babies. They go to bed by like seven 30 and I would do a lot of work at night, but then I realized I couldn’t sleep particularly when I was working on my qualifying paper, which is what we have instead of comps. Because I was just thinking about the data in my head all the time and like trying to resolve puzzles as I was trying to sleep and it just wasn’t working. And so I decided to totally shift my schedule to go to bed by about 9 30, 10 at the latest and then wake up five to five 30. And my kids, especially in sort of the later years, were not waking up until like seven. And so I would get a solid hour and a half of work time in the morning and I felt so productive and so fabulous. It took, you know, other people I’ve given this advice to have started it. And then they give up really quickly. The, the trick is you have to stick with it for a couple weeks. Like the first couple days are so hard ’cause your body is not used to doing that. So stick with it and for, you know, it, it can work.

Emily (20:48): So this strategy is called the split shift. It’s something that I learned about in Laura Vander cam’s, I know how she does it, which is about working moms with high impact jobs. And yeah, it’s super, super common as you said, because your kids are only awake for those limited windows. If you’re working for a lot of that window, then you don’t get to see them that much. So you sort of shift the work around, like you said, you tried it in the evening, that’s what most people do, but it didn’t work for you for the reasons you said. And so I love that you just didn’t give up on the strategy entirely. You just shifted the window. Now it is very challenging to get up before young children, at least most young children, but it sounds like it was working for you all. And I know actually from the podcast that Laura Vander cam co-hosts, which is called Best of both worlds, that her co-host is also a very, very early riser. So she loves that morning split shift as well. So yeah, and I totally agree with you. I changed my own sleep habits sort of early on the pandemic. I had never been one to consistently be waking up at the same time every day. And I was a bit of a night owl, but I started getting up at 6:00 AM every day. And you’re exactly right, it’s the, you have to stick with the schedule, you have to power through the initial like difficult early part, and then it becomes more easy as your body then regulates itself towards that schedule that you’ve set instead of like me just being haphazard all over the place when you go to sleep and when you wake up.

Ilana H (22:03): Yeah, that’s absolutely right. Being consistent with a sleep schedule is really important. So I wake up really early on the weekends also. Another thing that I did or things people often said to me in graduate school, like, I don’t understand how you do it. Like, how can you be a mom and a grad student? And actually I think I was more productive than most people because I knew that I had this very finite period of time, right? Like, I have eight to six and that’s it. And so I didn’t, I wasn’t on social media. I like dilly, didn’t dilly dally. Like I didn’t waste any time, every moment that I had, I was incredibly productive because I knew my time was limited as opposed to, I think people who are like, I have all day, like, so what if I watch a couple hours of TV now as a result? I was like, had no idea what was going on in the world. I had no, I have no pop culture knowledge at all whatsoever. I pretty much lived under a rock, but I was really efficient. And so there’s something to be said about knowing that you have a finite period of time and being really efficient during those hours.

Emily (23:01): I think I have to imagine not only the the parenthood aspect of this, but your past work experience played into this as well because I think it’s really difficult for people sort of like me, I almost did this who go pretty much directly from undergrad to grad school and carry that like student mindset, the student schedule, the student finances, the student identity and so forth into their graduate careers if they haven’t had the kind of interruption like you did by a working career. So probably a lot of the habits and strategies you learned in your twenties were you, you were then able to apply once you got to graduate school.

Ilana H (23:30): Yeah, I, by the time I got to graduate school, I knew myself really, really well and I knew what worked for me and what didn’t. I think early in my career I was always like waiting till the last minute to do things and was a total procrastinator and submitted things late. And really I, and one of the things I, the biggest lesson I learned in my mid twenties when I tried working for a couple of organizations is that I didn’t do well having a boss. I really needed to have autonomy and agency in my work. And being a PhD student and now a faculty member is exactly what is, that’s exactly what I have and that’s what I love so much about my job because I learned that I really needed to set my own schedule. I wanna be able to work what I want on what I want and how I want. And I didn’t do well telling me to, having people tell me sort of how to do my job and when to do it. But so my biggest, you know, general advice for people when they come to me about career advice is to take time off between being an undergrad and a grad student because you learn so much about yourself as well as about the real world. As opposed to when you go straight through. There’s so many ideal things that we think about theoretical things we learn about in the classroom that just don’t translate or are much more difficult in reality. And when you actually go to work in the real world, you see some of those some of those things play out.

Emily (24:52): I love it. I give the same advice whenever anyone seems receptive to it.

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Family Roles and Responsibilities During Graduate School

Emily (26:17): Now, we already got a hint of this earlier in the email when you were talking about not wanting to rely on someone else financially. So I wanna ask about in your household during this period, how were the roles working between you and your husband? Did you have defined areas of responsibility? Was that something you were constantly negotiating? I’m sure it changed with time, but can you tell us about that process?

Ilana H (26:39): Yeah, absolutely. When I started graduate school at the time my husband had a very long commute to his job. This is in the day when people actually commuted to work. And so I was in charge both of childcare pick up and drop off. But also because I was, you know, in grad school and I had the more flexible schedule it was assumed and we never had like an outright conversation about it, but it was assumed that I was gonna be the one to take the time off. And so when my kid first started daycare, she was sick all the time. She had ear infections, she had flus, she had colds, all the stuff. And I also, at the time, Stanford operates on a quarter schedule, which I had never been on a quarter schedule. And it’s very different than a semester schedule because things move very fast. And so you can never say to yourself on a quarter schedule like, oh, I’ll get to that later. Or like, I missed that concept, I’ll get to it later because there is no later, it’s only 10 weeks. And so I just remember my first quarter it was really hard. I took this very difficult economics class or it was difficult for me ’cause I was trying to learn things that the other undergrad students in the class it was very intuitive to them, like integrals and derivatives. And my kid was constantly sick. And so even missing like two or three or four classes, which is what ended up happening set me back a lot. And so I really struggled with how to like navigate both, like the idea that the grad student is the more flexible one means that we are always having to, to take that on. And also as the mother, there’s so much of the like kind of invisible childcare responsibility. So for example I was the one that managed all the clothes. Like I knew when they would outgrow the clothes and where the next size was. And sort of keeping all of that organized. I did all the co-oping at the, at the school. I was the one that had to do all the paperwork for the school and do take with them to all the doctor’s appointments and hired, you know, anyone that we, you know, brought in outside of childcare hours. So sort of navigating all that kind of what was I think called the invisible responsibility of childcare fell on me. And that was really hard. Another thing that was especially hard is when I was on the job market when I went on the, I went on the job market three times and I was very unsuccessful up until I finally got this job at Tulane. But at one point I had been offered a job at or at least a postdoc at Brandeis. And at the time my husband, this was pre Covid and my husband said like, you want us to move to Boston for two years for you to make $50,000? Like that doesn’t make any sense. You know, it’s not a permanent job and it would mean that I would have to give up my job, which, you know, in terms of our household hold finances would make no sense. But for me it was hard to sort of navi like feel like, oh, when am I ever gonna get my turn? If it’s always about money I’m never gonna get to have a turn. And so when I finally got a job offer at Tulane, I said to my husband and he didn’t wanna move to New Orleans, I said, you know, if, if you, if we don’t move for this job, like I’m gonna be very resentful. Um and then Covid hit and he was able to take his job remotely with him, but he had even agreed to move to New Orleans before that happened. So and now actually he works from home. And when my kids are sick, he’s the one that now stays home with them and I go and teach and we have a much more even sort of distribution of childcare and it’s, it’s great. But because the grad school time is when you, you know, you’re more flexible, I think that compounded by the gender dynamics of childcare responsibility made it hard for me.

Emily (30:24): Absolutely. You were, it was a double whammy on you. Right? And you mentioned earlier about some of your peers and housing having like a stay-at-home spouse. Now I imagine, were there any women who were graduate students among that who had the stay-at-home husband? Or did you only see the opposite model?

Ilana H (30:40): I think I only saw the opposite model.

Emily (30:45): And isn’t that telling right?

Ilana H (30:47): It is telling.

Gender and Income Dynamics with a Working Partner

Emily (30:48): Yes. absolutely. So you had this, these two seemingly really good reasons right, why you should be the one to be handling the childcare and as you said later on, the roles changed and, and things shifted. But is there any like advice that you would give to your past self or someone else who’s in a similar gendered plus income differential, like kind of situation that would’ve helped you I don’t know, get to graduation faster, feel more balanced, whatever would’ve been a greater degree of success for you at that time?

Ilana H (31:18): This one is kind of maybe sort of silly, but you know, when I was on the job market maybe the second time and I was applying pretty widely, my husband and I would have these like extensive conversations before I applied anywhere. Like could we imagine living there and we would, you know, get into this whole thing. Like I’d apply to a job at Notre Dame and he’d be like, do you really wanna live in South Bend, Indiana? No offense to anybody listening from South Bend, Indiana, but he’s like . That wasn’t his first choice of places to move. But we would have these extensive conversations and in retrospect like that was a waste of time and, and a waste of emotional energy because none of those jobs panned out. So I don’t know why we bothered like sort of investing so much of our conversation time and emotional energy even having those conversations. Um and when I did apply to the job at Tulane, he was like, I, I had sort of given up by then about asking him where I should apply or not apply. That was my third time on the market and I was like, I’m just gonna apply wherever ’cause none of it’s gonna work out anyways. And when I applied he, he just kind of remarked like, oh by the way, like I have no interest in living in New Orleans. And I was like, oh well I won’t get the job anyways. And I did and it worked out. But I just, I wish I hadn’t spent so much emotional energy sort of thinking about whether we could actually move somewhere.

Emily (32:34): I would imagine compounded with this situation is the fact that you were living in the Bay Area and I’m imagining the type of job that your husband has, it’s very difficult to leave that area of the country and the job opportunities that it affords unless you’re really looking to get out, you know, and then you can, you know, leverage your experience and your high salary and all that when you go somewhere else. But if you’re not already desiring that, I can see that that area has a pull. I’m never gonna make as much money elsewhere, by the way. You don’t need as much, but I’m never gonna make as much money elsewhere as I do here. So I I imagine that plays into it as well.

Ilana H (33:04): It does. And also my husband has a job that he is really passionate about. He works in clean energy and I you know, he’s super, he was super supportive of me going to graduate school. I’m very supportive of his career. But it made it hard to look outside of the Bay area ’cause there’s not a lot of clean tech jobs elsewhere. And there was a point at which I was you know, interviewing for a job at a highly teaching focused university. I did not really want to be in a, in a teaching intensive university, but it was in the Bay Area. I didn’t end up getting the job, but that would’ve been probably a sacrifice I would’ve had to make for us to stay in the Bay Area so that we could at least kind of have you know have both of us be happy. But then, you know, because of the pandemic, his job did become remote and it enabled us to move to New Orleans and for him to be able to stay working for his Bay Area company,

Emily (33:54): That is one of the, so to speak, positive things that’s come out of our pandemic experiences. Like you mentioned the remote work possibility. I mean, child sick days are not easy, but it’s certainly much less of a strain if you didn’t have to leave the house in the first place for your job. And you don’t have to scramble for the backup childcare or sacrifice your whole day of going to classes like you had to do to stay home with the sick kids. So in, in that respect and the working remotely, you can work for a company here and live over here, which is something that my husband does. That’s all been very interesting and, and in some ways positive, but we’re still kind of working it out, right, as a society . Yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to say about that dynamic between you and your husband or anything that you would, you know, offer to other people by the way of advice or things to think about?

Ilana H (34:38): Yeah, I would say that no one really talks about the gender dynamics and sort of being the doctoral student and being a mother and all of that. Like, I just think I wasn’t psychologically prepared. It wasn’t a conversation that people were having, you know, people were talking about like where we don’t have lactation rooms and you know, sort of more the logistical challenges. But I was, I think navigating the sort of role dynamic challenge and didn’t have a lot of people I think who were part of that conversation. And I just wanna normalize that experience more for people.

Emily (35:19): Have you read Fair Play by Eve Rodsky?

Ilana H (35:23): I have not.

Emily (35:24): This is a suggestion for you slash anyone who has I would say a lot of work to be done in your household and maybe, maybe there’s children involved, maybe there’s not, but is feeling like my partner, I’m doing so much more, they’re not pulling their weight. And something that the book helped me realize was just the degree of work that is going on in my house and actually, wow, my husband is doing a lot and we both feel like we’re doing more than the other person just ’cause there’s so much to do and we don’t always see the labor that the other person is putting in. And so what that book does, and there’s like a sort of a game associated with like a card, like a, the cards have like responsibilities and you say, okay, this is your card, this is gonna be your responsibility, but I’m gonna take this card, it’s gonna be my responsibility. And so it’s a way of really putting that work of the household out in the open and making it much more explicit and splitting it in a way that makes sense for people’s time availability and interest and talents and all that sort of thing. So it’s, it’s a way of negotiating and maybe maybe taking the the edge out of that conversation by using this this game or this like set of tactics. So something to put out there as well. Now you mentioned earlier, for instance, your husband had a long commute and that is a day killer. Absolutely. So like really the availability, his availability was a legitimate barrier in that situation, you know, so we have to acknowledge that as well.

Ilana H (36:42): Yeah, absolutely. And he wanted to be, you know, really helpful. So part of it was like my own issue that I didn’t sort of maybe advocate for myself, but part of it was that, you know, yeah, he wasn’t, he wasn’t there and he was so, so, so incredibly encouraging and supportive of me going to grad school. I didn’t even wanna go at first. I didn’t think I’d be able to sort of do do it well. So I definitely don’t wanna paint a picture of him not being a supportive husband. He, he absolutely was. And now everything in our house is like, feels fantastic. But you know, it also took a little bit of couples counseling to figure out that dynamic, which is something I encourage people to consider.

Emily (37:21): And your kids are a little older than mine, but I’ve noticed it has gotten a bit easier as they’ve gotten out of the baby and toddler stage the workload.

Ilana H (37:28): Absolutely.

Emily (37:29): You know, once they can do some things for themselves, wow, okay, that’s your responsibility now getting dressed or whatever it is. So the workload comes down a little bit in that respect, although as I understand the emotional workload increases as the children get older. And I just wanna say like, I’m so glad that you were willing to have this, this aspect of the conversation with me. It is a very difficult thing to talk about. And it is a financial issue really because these kinds of thoughts and the gender dynamics and everything that we’re talking about plays into women’s careers and how much financial success they’re able to have, how much they’re able to bring to their household. You know, if you’re constantly the one who’s on for childcare, then are you really going to be viewed well by your boss and be up for that next promotion and so forth. So like these are real sacrifices that can have effect on the household finances as well as the individual finances. So it’s important to talk about it.

Ilana H (38:15): Yeah, absolutely.

The Benefits of Having Children During Graduate School

Emily (38:17): Okay, awesome. So one thing that you told me in our prep for this interview is that you were really glad that you had your children prior to and during graduate school instead of waiting until you had your faculty position. So I want you to make the case for why people who are emotionally and otherwise ready for children should just go ahead and do it while they’re in graduate school.

Ilana H (38:34): I think think there’s never gonna be a time where you have as much autonomy and agency as you do during graduate school. Like people in graduate school think they’re so busy. faculty life is, is much harder. Because now I not only have to teach at set hours, I also have to hold, you know, office hours. I have to go to faculty meetings. I have like real responsibilities that would make it so much harder if I had to worry about you know, my kid being sick or just like generally being tired. Because when you’re a grad student, like if you’re tired and you need to take a day off or a couple hours off, no one cares. But now people are gonna notice, or at least I would feel really self-conscious about it. And also you know, the, the sort of feeling of the tenure o clock is real now and it wasn’t real. Like if I needed to stay in grad school an extra year I could. And the, the sort of pressures that I feel now are much more significant. And so I think doing it during the freedom of graduate school if you can manage it financially is the way to go. Well,

Emily (39:47): I wanna probe on that point just one second further, if you can manage it financially. Now you had your husband’s income, so that’s great. And you have your, a generous stipend from Stanford. Do you think it would’ve been easier to do this as a faculty member with your faculty salary versus the grad student salary? What kind of difference would that have made?

Ilana H (40:05): No I mean I, my faculty salary is, faculty salary is, you know, it’s a little higher, but I live in New Orleans and salaries here aren’t that high. And so I don’t actually think it would’ve made a big difference. I, I mean also realistically, I couldn’t have waited. I was already 30 when I started graduate school. And I didn’t start my faculty job until I was in my very late thirties, so I needed to have kids then. But I think the, I think I would’ve preferred to just take out loans and still do it during graduate school as opposed to doing it as a faculty member.

Emily (40:46): Yeah, it’s interesting because you have to think about, especially like you said, when you’re starting graduate school at an older age, if your vision for your life is I wanna be a faculty member and I wanna have children and all this has to come together somehow, then really what you’re doing when you take out student loans is you’re betting on yourself and you’re, you’re borrowing from your future self to pay for your current life. And if you’re confident in the track that you’re on and that you’re gonna make enough income to be able to justify those loans and pay them back, then I do think that makes sense. And plenty of people do take out childcare to take out student loans, pay for childcare, for example. It’s a very reasonable thing to do when what you’re doing is investing in your career and your future earning potential.

Ilana H (41:21): Yeah, and I wanna just be clear that it doesn’t mean that you think you’re gonna make it into a faculty position. It means you’re betting on yourself having a job. And I knew that with a PhD I would get a job and that it would be a decent paying job. I did not expect to necessarily become a faculty member. As we’ll talk about a year from now the odds of getting a faculty position are incredibly low, like in the single digits. And so you have to be confident that you will get a job which you know, requires a, a whole sort of different kind of mindset but not necessarily a faculty job. And maybe you could get a job that pays much more than a faculty job because this job doesn’t pay all that much.

Emily (42:04): Yeah, absolutely. And I do think as you get higher up in the, you know, people with this degree level, you know, high school, college, graduate school, the people who have the highest degrees like doctorates have the lowest unemployment rates. So it’s pretty likely you’re gonna have some kind of job, probably a pretty decent paying job, even if it’s not the faculty member one, like you said, the consolation might be you make more outside of academia.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (42:23): So Ilana, this has been such a wonderful conversation. I’ve really enjoyed talking with you and I’m looking forward to having you back once your book comes out. I wanna leave us with the last question I ask of all my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Ilana H (42:40): So because this is a podcast specifically talking about childcare and directed at parents, my advice is gonna be particularly about that topic and that is to think really creatively and outside the box about how you can garner resources in your community, in your social network to help you sort of accomplish things. And it’s not necessarily like a specific amount of money, but that, you know, if you have a talent, like maybe you can tutor somebody in statistics and in exchange they can watch your kids for a couple of hours, but think creatively about the sort of non-financial resources in your community and how those can be exchanged to create, to create help for everybody.

Emily (43:24): And something I’ve noticed when I’ve started doing this actually in recent years with my neighbors, my immediate neighbors also have young families like I do, is that the exchange of resources also creates and reinforces the community. So like, it feels good to help someone else and it feels good to be helped by someone else so you can actually get, you know, stronger relationships out of this exchange as well.

Ilana H (43:43): Yeah, I think that’s absolutely right and I think it contributed to our feeling like we have a really strong community during graduate school and that people are really counting on each other. We again like live in this very individualistic society where we don’t want to ask other people for help. We wanna think that we can do it on our own and we just need to get out of that mindset.

Emily (44:03): Absolutely. Ilana, thank you again so much for volunteering to be on the podcast and I can’t wait to talk with you again in less than a year.

Ilana H (44:09): Thanks Emily.

Outtro

Emily (44:16): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This Grad Student Budgeted for Having Her First Child

September 11, 2023 by Jill Hoffman 4 Comments

In this episode, Emily interviews Madeline Hebert, a rising second-year PhD student in Human Development and Family Sciences at the University of Connecticut. Madeline’s household has an irregular income; her assistantship stipend varies between the academic year and the summer and her husband is paid hourly throughout the year with a variable schedule. Madeline details her household budget, which accounts for their irregular income, irregular expenses, and financial goals. Their biggest financial goal at the moment is to provide for their new baby, due just a few weeks after this interview was recorded. Emily and Madeline discuss the Big Five expenses that new parents need to account for: health insurance, parental leave, childcare, baby stuff, and home/car. Madeline shares all she’s learned about the benefits she receives at the federal, state, and university levels (she is part of a union), and how important it is to talk with your peers about their financial experiences.

Links mentioned in the Episode

How This Grad Student Budgeted for Having Her First Child

Teaser

00:00 Madeline H: Really look and consider that quality of life package portion of the Ph.D. like research interest that is super important. But having a livable arrangement is also extremely important for peace of mind, for, I knew that for us, pregnancy was a very real option for us during my Ph.D. So, I want to see like, what would that look like? What what coverage do they have and what kind of protections do they have? So.

Introduction

00:31 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.

01:01 Emily: This is Season 16, Episode 1, and today my guest is Madeline Hebert, a rising second-year PhD student in Human Development and Family Sciences at the University of Connecticut. Madeline’s household has an irregular income; her assistantship stipend varies between the academic year and the summer and her husband is paid hourly throughout the year with a variable schedule. Madeline details her household budget, which accounts for their irregular income, irregular expenses, and financial goals. Their biggest financial goal at the moment is to provide for their new baby, due just a few weeks after this interview was recorded. Madeline and I discuss the Big Five expenses that new parents need to account for: health insurance, parental leave, childcare, baby stuff, and home/car. Madeline shares all she’s learned about the benefits she receives at the federal, state, and university levels—she is part of a union—and how important it is to talk with your peers about their financial experiences.

02:08 Emily: My Office Hours are open to you this fall! About once per month I host a free Zoom call to which you can bring any financial question or topic that relates to your journey as a PhD or PhD-to-be to discuss with me and the other attendees. These sessions are limited to four people each. Register through PFforPhDs.com/officehours/. I look forward to speaking with you there! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e1/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Madeline Hebert.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:55 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today. Madeleine Hebert. She is a rising second year PhD student at the University of Connecticut. Now, we are recording this interview in late July 2023. By the time you hear this, Madeleine will ideally have a new family member joining her, which she will talk about later on in the interview. So first, we’re going to discuss irregular incomes and supplementing your income as a graduate student. How Madeline and her husband budget for irregular expenses and irregular income. And finally, about how they’re budgeting for their baby, who will be born by the time you hear this. Okay. So, Madeline, thank you so much for joining me today. Will you please introduce yourself to the audience a little bit further?

03:37 Madeline H: Thank you for having me. Yes. So my name is Madeline. I am a rising second year over at the University of Connecticut and the Human Development Family Sciences Department. And me and my husband are excited to be expecting our baby from Louisiana. I just started my PhD this past year, and then we got married in November and found out we were expecting in December. So lots of new changes that we’re really excited for and lots of things to consider when it comes to our financial budget.

Income Details

04:07 Emily: Yeah. What a year. What a blockbuster year for you. And it’s only going to get more exciting. All right, let’s jump into this. So let’s cover what are the incomes that you have in your household between you and your husband? And like, what are the pay frequency, the pace schedules for both of you?

04:23 Madeline H: Yes, so I’m on a graduate assistantship through my university is a nine month stipend type assistantship was like a W-2, so it’s not a fellowship. And then we get paid biweekly roughly. And then my husband works at a hospital where he also gets paid biweekly, but it falls on every other week in between my paycheck. So every single week we are receiving some sort of income just about. And then in the summer, during those 2 to 3 months that I’m not covered, we can receive income through our department sometimes, but not guaranteed. And a lot of students, myself included, find some supplemental income as well for that.

05:11 Emily: Wow. I don’t know if I’ve spoken with anyone before whose household has income coming in literally every week between two different jobs that pay go to that is actually really interesting. I’m so excited to get to your budget in a second. Would you like to share your income level approximately or specifically yours and or your husband’s.

05:29 Madeline H: So my school I have a master’s already and so they change how much you make based upon whether you have came in with a bachelor’s degree or a master’s degree or or a Ph.D. candidate, have defended your competence, taking your competency exam. And so I came in with the master’s and it’s getting bumped up to about 28,000. I think, for this upcoming year. Every hour we are unionized. My job is unionized. And so that means that they have negotiated a pay raise every year for us. And so it was 27 roughly this past year and now it’s moved up to 28. My husband’s job pays of roughly about the other 50%. We make about roughly the same per month, and so that makes it really easy for budgeting and stuff.

06:22 Emily: I can see that your income changed a little bit from your academic year income. It sounds like it was a little bit lower over the summer. But you also told me during our prep that your husband’s income is also irregular, even though he’s, you know, paid regularly like biweekly. So how what’s the nature of his irregular income?

06:38 Madeline H: So my husband works hourly and he is a he works at a hospital, so they have shifts and stuff, but his paycheck is by the, by schedule. It’s mostly regular, except every now and then he’ll get double booked or he’s able to pick up shifts or he, with everything with the travel and such, like my job covers for those kind of vacation funds. And it’s a lot easier for me to know like, okay, like if I have to miss a day or such like that covered fairly easily. But for my husband, if he misses any hours or if he has to leave early, those hours might get dropped and such. And so we have to kind of budget for those kind of factors as well.

Budgeting for Irregular Income and Expenses

07:22 Emily: Mm hmm. Yeah. So he experiences both. The upside of you work more, you get paid more. And also the downside of you don’t work, you don’t get paid. So, yeah. Okay, let’s dive into more about how you budget then with this frequent but very, very irregular and challenging kind of income. I’d like to talk both about how you budget for that irregular income and also for irregular expenses in addition to whatever financial goals you have. So however you want to tackle that, let’s get started.

07:50 Madeline H: Sure thing. So I track our spending using Excel spreadsheets. For me, that’s the easiest way. And what I’ve done when we before we even got married, I’ve kind of thought to myself, okay, like how much is it going to cost and how much is my expecting to make for myself and what kind of living situation would allow for us and for myself, even if I were just to live here by myself, Which was the plan the first few months before we got married was to make sure that the living situation I had that roughly that 50, 30, 20 budget that a lot of people kind of discuss about. And so when I did that, when he came up, we made a plan for, okay, you know, you find a job that makes roughly this much if you can try to like negotiate for pay. So this way it fits with our current living situation and this labor able to save. And so the way that I started budgeting was figuring out like, okay, this is how much the necessities cost our rent, our bills, our insurance. I just those are just solid numbers that we had to include. And then figuring out, okay, this is how much we already came in with. For a while he didn’t have a job, so we had to budget and figure out like, okay, what can we afford versus how much are we willing to take out of our savings? And then once he did get a job, I tried to budget to where we were maximizing our savings because we knew that we want to kind of replenish our savings after the wedding and such. And we kind of discussed, okay, like how much are we willing to spend on going out? I did a little bit of tracking, as you have always recommended, of like figuring out like, well, what are we already spending on groceries? What are we already spending on going out to eat and such and figuring out, okay, like, can we live on less?Can we can be budget a little bit more or figure out a way to make those expenditures last longer. So we got like a Costco membership, for example, so we can book by a little bit better to make it easier for ourselves for when we go get groceries instead.

09:55 Emily: So let’s talk more about the the budgeting that and especially with his income being irregular, how how does that work?

10:01 Madeline H: So to kind of account for that, what I do, I tried to make that not be such a stressful factor by having us use a credit card together and making sure that we are both having access to that credit card and to see like how much we’re spending on that. And we kind of talk regularly about like, okay, this is where we’re at in our spending, because it took a while for him to be able to see like what we’re spending. But, um, so even though we are getting paychecks every single week, that actually doesn’t factor into my budgeting so much because we are, we just pay everything on a credit card that we pay off at the end of the month. And but what’s nice about our budgeting practice is that because receiving income every week and we’re also tracking it with our credit cards, we’re able to see like, okay, has our credit is our credit card above what we are currently at in our bank, and then we’re able to kind of adjust. So I can see like, oh, he didn’t make the expected income that we were hoping for that we would have expected for like a full week, for example. And then we can adjust based upon that being like, okay, well maybe we’re just not going to go out to eat this week or we’re going to wait to buy this item that is not in pure necessity. And by that layer next month, for example.

11:17 Emily: Mm hmm. I see. So you’re kind of allowing the spending to accumulate on a credit card throughout the month and you can kind of look at those numbers and compare them to how much income you’re making throughout that same month and make adjustments, as you’re saying. And I assume also your husband might be able to volunteer for extra shifts like you might be able to increases income if he’s, you know, available and healthy and so forth.

11:39 Madeline H: Yes. So so in fact, he’s signing up for additional shifts. So this way we can kind of have a little bit of a buffer with the baby. And because of how parental leave is working for us.

11:50 Emily: Yeah, definitely. Okay. So that explains kind of how well that explains a little bit of the irregular come and the irregular expenses to a degree because you mentioned maybe deferring some spending that’s not strictly needed to happen right away. Is there any other detail you want to give us about how you’re budgeting for irregular expenses?

12:08 Madeline H: For the most part, that is kind of how we work for irregular expenses. Although every month I also make sure to put a budget itself, a number being like about $100 being like, okay, this is for irregular expenses that we’re not into, that we don’t have like a specific category before. And as well, if I know that there’s an upcoming expense, like I know if we have like a doctor’s appointment or a dental appointment, I put that into our budget and see like, okay, where can we adjust the numbers for other categories when we expect an irregular expense, such as like a water bill or like a doctor’s appointment like that. And so that also gets kind of put into the budget that way for this Labor avoiding creating a habit of dipping into our savings.

12:50 Emily: Okay, so it sounds like in addition to doing the tracking that we were just talking about and the adjusting on the fly, you’re also budgeting proactively. Okay, So the beginning of the month, you can see, okay, here are some things on the calendar or some special things that take some extra money. So you already have a plan for how you’re going to account for all of that, and then you just continue to tweak it throughout the month.

13:08 Madeline H: Yes. That’s exactly what we did.

Savings Goals

13:11 Emily: Yeah, that sounds great. Now, you’re also you mentioned a high degree of savings and so forth. Do you have any like specific savings goals? And let’s maybe leaving aside the maybe I don’t know, we’ll talk about the baby stuff in a moment, but were there any savings goals outside of baby related?

13:29 Madeline H: Yes. So before we found out that we were pregnant, we were planning on saving for my husband to potentially go back to college for a new house. And we wanted savings for being able to travel home since we’re from Louisiana. So making sure that we would be able to visit home at least once a year. Those savings are, for the most part, still existing, but the contributions to them are a lot different. And the new home slash college fund is kind of the same bucket at this point. So it’s more just a matter of like Craig those in addition. And then the third one was the emergency savings fund itself.

14:07 Emily: It might. I don’t know if, I may be projecting. It might feel like a setback to you that you had to put pause or at least reduce these other savings goals you have when you found out about the pregnancy, which obviously takes up a lot of money itself. And now they’ve had, you know, whatever, 15 plus years of doing this budgeting stuff like life is long and things come in cycles. And as long as you keep the habit of saving where it might go and how it fluctuates at different stages of life, that may change what you’re doing specifically for a short time, but you’ll be able to get back to it and like you’ll be able to accomplish those goals. It just might be, you know, next year instead of this year or two years from now, instead of this year.

14:50 Madeline H: Now, I appreciate that, because, yeah, sometimes it feels like that and that’s been part of this whole process of like adjusting what our goals are and trusting what our expectations are and then figuring out like, what are we comfortable in? Like how can we just create like better financial habits, like so and one thing that I wanted to add about the savings is that I have an automated account, like one of them is now automated, like automatically just draws like $10 out, which is not going to be missed. But it’s just nice knowing like, okay, something’s being saved if not even if I’m not always like thinking about her or such like that. So that helps.

15:30 Emily: You know, I think I mean, I think the automated savings is wonderful, but even just the step of having a bucket, like even though it’s different count or sub account within something, having a bucket available to just capture savings itself is a big step, even if you’re not consistently contributing to it. Because you know that if you, you know, ever got back to it or you had a windfall come your way or whatever, you have a place to put the money and like the plan is already like half there, you know.

15:56 Madeline H: That was something that, that was another step that I actually did do. I have multiple savings accounts, so this way I can visually see like, okay, this is what we have set aside for this instead of just being like, we have this big number in our emergency savings account and then thinking that’s only for emergencies, instead of being like, okay, this amount isn’t allocated for this type of expenditure and these amounts are okay to be spent for these other types of needs and stuff. So that helped a lot as well, like wrapping your head around all the numbers.

16:25 Emily: Yeah, and I love that strategy. I don’t use it as much now. But when I was at your stage with the budgeting, like I was using it so intensively and it was really, really helpful. When we were doing our prep call for this, I told you my philosophy of finances around babies, that the things that people maybe don’t notice so much are actually the things that are really, really expensive and that I’m always, like, curious about how people are handling them. So I’m going to ask you about four categories of expenses and how you are going to manage them either now or after the baby comes. Okay. So four categories. Category number one is health insurance. Whose health insurance is this baby going on? Is it going to cost you more? What’s going on with that?

Health Insurance

17:04 Madeline H: So the baby’s health insurance and my husband as well in fact, or his health insurance, they’re both online with my graduate assistantship because I found out that in order to add him to my assistance, so to add him to my my health insurance was only $100 more per month, which is more than what his job offers. But given my health insurance does not have a deductible, it has only a maximum out of pay and it has a very low co-pay. We were like this works really well for us in our current financial situation. And then to add the baby, we were very, very fortunate that there’s only like ten or $20, maybe $30 max out in addition to the current pay that we’re already making monthly for health insurance. So it’s not been the it’s not been a huge addition for having the baby added to and creating a family plan for our health insurance.

17:57 Emily: Phew. That’s great to hear, especially about there being like the low, you know, co-pays and the deductible and so forth. Because when you have a child, that child is going to go to the doctor a lot. So that’s great to hear. Now, I’m curious if your husband was not already on your plan, like let’s say he was on his workplace plan, would adding the baby to your plan be that ten, 20, 30 a month, or would it be the hundred? Is it like the second person or is that specifically that it’s a dependent?

18:25 Madeline H: I think that is specifically that the second person went from a $10 a month to a $110 a month to add a second person, a second dependent, as I put it, if I remember correctly.

18:37 Emily: PSA for you and anyone listening, correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you have 30 days to get that baby onto the health insurance before you’re, you know, special life circumstance window expires. So I have had people who in that, you know, that fog of New Parenthood have forgotten to add that child to your policy. And it’s a huge headache. So please get your child added within the window your insurance company provides.

Commercial

19:02 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! These action items are for you if you recently switched or will soon switch onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary. Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2023 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is September 15, 2023. Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at time tax, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives. If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. Now back to our interview.

Funding Parental Leave

21:09 Emily: Okay, a second expense, your leave and or your husband’s leave. If he’s planning on taking one, how are you going to fund your life when you are on leave?

21:19 Madeline H: That’s a great question. So I’m very fortunate. As I mentioned before, my job is unionized and our union fought for paid parental leave for six weeks. If you have a vaginal birth and eight weeks of you have cesarean birth. And so that will be completely paid for.

21:36 Emily: That’s 100% of your pay or is a lower percentage?

21:39 Madeline H: Yes, It’s 100% of our pay.

21:41 Emily: Awesome.

21:43 Madeline H: And that will be covered for, and we do not lose any of our benefits. We do not lose our tuition waiver. We do not lose our health insurance. It’s 100%, 100% pay. And then that’s, well, relief from work responsibilities.

21:57 Emily: Awesome. And are you planning on going back to work after that six or eight week time period? Or are you taking more time?

22:04 Madeline H: I am planning on returning back because when if I even though I would qualify under Connecticut’s FMLA, which is separate from the federal optimally, it would not. It would not. First of all, I would not be paid. And then second of all, it would not guarantee my tuition waiver. So I would potentially have to pay for the rest of the semester for tuition in order to take up to another six weeks of leave. So we decided that that was a little bit eating into too much into our savings account for that.

22:38 Emily: Okay. I’m glad you’re being paid at 100%. I’m not glad that this is only six or eight weeks. That is a short time period. I mean, in the U.S., we already have nothing guaranteed and whatever. We know how bad the situation is.

22:49 Madeline H: yes, I’m fortunate about that. And then also my department has been extremely accommodating, extremely supportive. They I had mentioned to them what my situation was and I talked with them and they were able to actually get me practically 100% remote of ga-ship for this semester. So even though I’ll be technically working, I’ll be able to do this from the comfort of home and being able to watch over my baby still. So.

23:16 Emily: That is a good benefit. Okay. I’m so glad that you asked for that note to anyone else. Negotiation is always available to you. Okay. And then what about your husband’s leave?

23:25 Madeline H: And then my so my husband, he is a he is at a job that is not unionized. And so Connecticut has a policy in place called the Connecticut FMLA and then also the Connecticut paid leave. They are two separate entities, but they both require that you’ve been working at your job for at least three months, different than the 12 month requirement by the federal FMLA. And the FMLA protects his job so he won’t be fired while he’s taking leave for so long. But then and that goes up to 12 weeks and it can be split however we need to just bye week. So like he could take six weeks off, he could take ten weeks off and one week off. And in the future, for example, as long as it’s within one year of the baby being born. So the CT paid leave is a program that works separately from the FMLA, but very similarly in that a lot of the events that qualify you for FMLA qualify you for the CT paid leave, and that provides supplemental income for while he’s on leave. So at the beginning he will be paid any PTO that he has left and so that will be full time pay and everything. But then once he runs out of PTO, the city paid leave will kick in and he’ll be paid 95% of the current minimum wage, which is $15 an hour, and they’ll be paid 95% of that at 40 hours per week. And then he’ll also be paid the difference between his current income and the minimum wage, and they’ll be paid out 60% for, I believe, 40, 40 hours or however many hours he generally works. I think he works 36 hours actually regularly. So it will be paid out 60% of that on top of that 90% of minimum wage. And so 95% of minimum wage. So that will all be going toward for however long he’s on leave. And that was very big in our financial decisions of whether or not how long we’d be on leave and for who’s going to be on leave and all that.

25:28 Emily: I’m so impressed you rattled all that off, and it just shows you like the detail that really you do need to dive into to understand all the different benefits that are available to you, both through your employer and the state and the federal government and everywhere. So that’s that’s great that you investigated that also thoroughly. And how long do you is he planning on a specific length or is it going to be like more play by ear kind of thing?

25:54 Madeline H: We are planning for him to be offered 12 weeks because we don’t have family in the area and we’re still fairly new in the area. So this way ensures that we’ll have the support that we need or I will have the support that I need. And so but we are kind of talking about whether or not maybe it might be more beneficial for him to take off six weeks and save that for another time in the future, maybe around the holidays or such. But so we’re still playing around with that. But knowing that regardless, like will be covered financially, that is really nice to know. And then I’m still trying to figure out whether or not he will be receiving PTO hours while he’s gone or like how that will kick back in. And so that might also play a role into whether or not we decide to delay further on that leave time.

Child Care Expenses

26:47 Emily: So it sounds like the pay aspect of the leave is not as much of an issue for you too, because you’re going to get your full pay and he’s going to get, it sounds like, pretty close to his full pay, but it’s more the length and it’s when to take it and so forth. So that that will be tricky. All right. Let’s move on to the third large expense, which is child care. So what is the plan for child care when you’re when one or both of you is back at work?

27:12 Madeline H: Great question. So we found out that childcare is very competitive in general. People. My cousin had told me that the minute that you find out that you’re pregnant, you should start looking for childcare. So when we were looking for childcare, I was trying to figure out like what are the general rates? I called a couple areas who’s offering where they located. We found I talked with other parents who are in our program, some other graduate student parents, and they suggested where to go. We’re very lucky that my school actually offers an on campus daycare, but there are some other daycares in the nearby city that the schools are located in. And so I called around both. We ended up deciding on the childcare that’s associated with the campus, not only because of its convenient location being close to me and my own work, but then also because it honestly was one of the cheapest options. It offers a sliding scale based upon the parent’s incomes of any I. Things should happen, especially considering the irregularity of our pays. We might be able to accommodate for that in the future years. And they also offered a legacy aspect which was important to us to ensure we have childcare in the future, something that we had considered. We’re not only the daycare itself, but the daycare is offering of like, well, they were doing it every, every few days be different than full time childcare and like if they offered partial days versus like every other day. My husband though, his job is his schedule is regular but changes every week it’s regular and that every two weeks that repeats and that does not work well for daycare. So we had to pick a daycare that has availability for the child to be there every day. And then we also looked at home care options, but us not being as familiar with the area, we felt more comfortable with the daycare, but we did notice that home care options were significantly cheaper options compared to doing like a full time daycare. But that was so that was something that we also had to consider.

29:20 Emily: That’s awesome. That University of Connecticut offers that on campus option and that it was available to you because I know sometimes those are full, full, full. And that they do a sliding scale. That all sounds really, really good. Are you going to pick up with the child care in the spring semester? Like when is the enrollment going to start?

29:40 Madeline H: enrollment actually we had to sign up for enrollment as early as February of this year. So we found out we were pregnant December. And then immediately I was like, well, and like I said, I hopped on that on that daycare list. And we found out every February is when Connecticut at least changes their rate for daycare. So I had to wait until February to be able to even ask about rate. And then by April, we were we were given a tour and then after the tour they said, you have two days to decide if you want this daycare. And when you do, you have to pay down the first month and then it will be your child will be enrolled starting in August. But then you are paying every single month and you for the entire year. So even though our baby won’t be born until August and will be with us for the first three months, we are already paying for daycare and we’ve actually been paying for daycare since May. In addition to that, in addition past the security deposit.

30:40 Emily: Whoa, I have never heard of that arrangement because you’re basically just paying to hold the spot. Yikes. And if the full rate to hold the spot, poof.

30:52 Madeline H: Yes, we have to pay the full rate and everything. Yeah, I still think it’s like that because it’s like I know that that means that the that the workers are guaranteed pay. But at the same time it’s like I’m paying first of all, my baby’s not even born.

31:05 Emily: Yeah, I mean, at least can you sublet it? Can you sublet the spot?

31:10 Madeline H: I wish. I though about that, we had asked maybe in the, if we do could it in the spring, if we could just sign up and enroll in the spring, but spots wouldn’t be guaranteed. And the difference in pay is so much that it’s about, it was looking around $1,400 roughly, $1,200 to $1,400 depending upon which we had chosen at the time per month versus $1,700 to a part time or the full time for another daycare and the difference in price per month even though its, we’re paying for time when we’re not there, if we need, the baby would need to be in daycare as early as November potentially. And so the savings technically that we’re making over the long term and being guaranteed having this lower cost daycare in the future own out over picking one that we would use for less time at a much higher rate.

32:03 Emily: Yeah. I mean, I’m sure you were in your spreadsheet doing those calculations and the break even point and everything, but, I mean, you’re going to be in grad school for several more years, so you’re going to need this child care for quite a while. So, yeah, it does make sense. I can see how it would work out that it makes more sense to pay a little bit more upfront to guarantee the lower rate in the long term. Well, that was a tough decision, though, I’m sure, to to pay for a service that you’re not actually quite using yet, But as you said, I mean, the childcare situation is so difficult right now all across the country.

32:33 Emily: And you sometimes you got to just take what you can get, even if it’s a little bit less than ideal in this setup. But okay, Thank you so much for explaining that. Is there anything more that you want to talk about with respect to the childcare costs?

32:45 Madeline H: Yes, actually. So I mentioned kind of the numbers is like 1200, 1400 versus practically its own separate rent to kind of make this fit our budget instead of being like, okay, we’re going to like continue our high savings until we like, can’t I decide that it might be more it might be a better idea for us to reduce the overall monthly payments by spreading it out a little bit more? So we started those payments, like I said, back in May, rather than waiting until August to make the first payment. So this way those payments are definitely fitting within our budget and our monthly income rather than trying to figure out, well, okay, we’ve got to save this much and we’ve got to save as much as we can, and then we’ll take some of those savings later in the future to pay for the excess lays like it got very complicated Those the simpler to be like, okay, let’s make sure that this fits in our current income the best that we can. So that’s kind of how we do savings but ensure that we have the money each month to pay off the daycare.

Budgeting for Baby “Stuff”

33:49 Emily: So you’re kind of you advanced your budget, your budget didn’t need to be doing that just yet, but you decided I want to make sure this is all balancing and all working out. And our fourth and final category is what I call the stuff, which is what people mostly like to talk about when you’re talking about preparing financially for a baby, which is the nursery and the furniture and the, I don’t know, the clothes, the formula, the the gadgets, all these things. So how has the stuff made an impact on your budget?

34:18 Madeline H: Thankfully, it’s been not as big of an impact as as I had feared that it would be, because I found out a lot of doing a lot of research what stuff is necessary to buy immediately, first hand or like buy brand new versus what can be afforded through second hand or be afforded through gifts and registries and what’s common. So we decided that we’re going to wait for to find out the gender of our baby. And that actually plays has played a role in our financial decision somewhat in that when we had a baby and a baby shower, it was really easy for us to tell people like, these are the practical gifts we have, and because people don’t know what gender we’re having, they don’t spend as much money on like trying to get us gendered items that we don’t really need, like baby girl clothes, a baby boy specific clothes. And so they focused a lot more on getting us things like diapers and burp cloth and like little swaddle and such. So that was a that was really useful. And then because we’re from Louisiana, we had a travel, we did travel back to Louisiana for our fam for our baby shower. And we specifically requested primarily for gift cards or money. And so that was really useful for us and being able to determine like, okay, this is how much money we have now that became kind of the budget for the baby. And then and then shopping based upon that, we were very fortunate to have a lot of family support as well. Like my parents pitched in some money. My in-laws have pitched in of helping us buy things that we need for the house. But surprisingly, there’s not very many things you have to actually buy, like brand new, like you want to buy the baby crib brand new. And so that was on our registry. We told people like, this is really important for us to be able to afford because this will be the baby’s bed. But also, too, I’ve joined a lot of Facebook groups that are like the Buy Nothing project or like free items in this area. And that helped tremendously because people surprisingly give out a lot of baby stuff because baby stuff doesn’t last very long in the center. Babies outgrow it very quickly before. It’s not like before. They’re like kind of growth. And so you’re able to like get a lot of toys that way or you’re able to get like a we got a changing table, we got a bassinet, we got a rocking chair. In fact, all of those like free three things. So that’s been super useful. I have also we have have we are part of a free home visitation program that offered free dual services as well as a free diaper bank. That’s part of the Connecticut Diaper Bank as well. So we have access to all of that and that’s been very helpful in like making sure that we can afford everything. So that’s been primarily like how we’ve been managing, affording all the baby stuff, items and such. Also kind of recognizing like what is needed has helped. Like for example, you don’t have to have a traditional crib. You can have like a pack and play, which is significantly much cheaper than having a crib and also much smaller. And so choosing things like that has also been able to help us be able to afford everything that we needed. And then the timing for, for when we had our baby happen to coincide with buybuy babies big clearance and closure. And so we were able to use that to our benefit of being able to buy some really important things like a stroller and the baby car seat that way. And figuring out things like, for example, the stroller has a car seat, come with it. That was a decision that we made purposefully so obviously we would have a car seat guaranteed and long lasting is during the summer, but having a summer baby worked out a little bit for us as well as that Amazon has Amazon Prime Day during the summer, which I found out about, and so we took advantage of the big sales going on then to when we were purchasing all of our baby items that we finally needed after the showers.

38:25 Emily: Wow. Thorough. Again, I love it. I’m so you’re such a great interviewee on this topic. This is wonderful. And I yeah, I just want to echo like a lot of you said, you probably did not use this as a strategy, but I like it as a tip for other people of like not revealing the gender so you can steer people towards some more like practical baby items that you really need instead of getting caught up in all the cute clothes and all that stuff and that long distance baby shower. I had a long distance baby shower as well, but I was not as intentional about use, about saying like, okay, cash is really something we can take back with us quite easily. Let’s save up for these bigger items. I love that strategy as well. And yeah, it’s kind of surprising. Like babies do need certain items for sure, like the car seat, you know, the you mentioned like a safe place to sleep. But beyond those like few big things, it’s really parental choice. Beyond that, whether you’re going to get things new or secondhand, how much you want to spend, whether you want to have them or not. I mean, I have love them, but I have some very bougie friends who have like the SNU, like, you know, they are able to and willing to spend a lot on their their baby’s first months of life. And their comfort is parents and their baby’s comfort. And it’s just it’s not necessary for everyone. So there’s a lot of agency in that.

Housing and Car Decisions

39:37 Emily: And you know what? Now that we’re talking about this, I have a fifth category of expenses, which is your housing and your car. I’m assuming you didn’t change either one of those, but a lot of people do when they’re expecting a baby. So can you just talk about the decisions around that?

39:52 Madeline H: Yeah. I’m actually glad that you mentioned this because we so we live in a one bedroom, one bath apartment and we had planned to stay in here for the duration of my PhD for the most part. And then like I said, maybe saving for a for like buying a home, but with the baby and everything, we were wondering like, where’s this baby going to go? We luckily have a walk in closet. And we thought to ourselves, Well, maybe the baby can go in there. We’ve decided against that. We actually just rearranged everything in our home to make space for the baby. And like I said, some of the some the living arrangement that we have has also contributed toward some of the decisions that we made, like such as having a traditional nursery space. So we thought about whether or not we might move to a two bedroom, two bath or two bedroom at least apartment. Now, something that was heavily kind of talked about, it’s still something over the bay. But right now this we decided in the end to keep because financially it just makes the most sense. We know that we can afford easily what like our living and home expenses are where we’re at and then and we don’t need to increase that the space fit. We can’t hold our parents as guests, which is a little bit tricky, but that’s been the biggest part. We kind of justify being like, You’re not staying here that long when you come up here. So it’s more important that we have financial security than being able to host our families for like two weeks, every couple of months kind of thing. As far as cars, we decide to keep our cars. We’ve joked about getting a new car for my husband just because we liked a car that we had been in in our honeymoon. But currently both of our cars are, we feel are safe enough. And I primarily take my car around for everywhere anyways. And so the idea is just that we have the baby primarily in my car because it’s going with me to the park where the daycare is. And then if we ever need to, like he has a he has a different car seat in his that a convertible since we have an infant only car seat that came with our stroller. So that’s kind of how we’ve navigated it for us.

42:08 Emily: Yeah, well, I’m glad that we covered that because like I said, a lot of people do choose to get a bigger place or get a bigger or a different car. And I think it’s a little premature just for an infant. Infants are in fact, in fact, quite small. They come with a lot of stuff that they themselves are not very big. And so I think it makes sense because, yeah, you may need to get a two bedroom place, but it doesn’t have to have have to happen this first year, you know, maybe for the subsequent year and the one after that as baby needs, you know, some more space and you two need to get some more space for yourselves, too.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

42:39 Emily: Well, Madeleine, this has been such a wonderful and detailed interview. I think it’ll be super useful to anyone, especially graduate students, who are, you know, preparing for parenthood as well, or just having that irregular income that we talked about earlier. So as we wrap up, would you please share with us your best financial advice for another early career, a Ph.D.?

42:59 Madeline H: Yes. My best advice that I have for someone who is an early career PhD would be to talk with other students who are in a similar situation as you. That helped tremendously for me in figuring out like, what do we truly need? Where can we outsource some of the other options? Understanding, especially as a new parent, understanding how does paid leave work for our department? How does paid leave work for the for the government or for the state? I joined other like communities that where people were familiar with what’s going on in general. My husband talked to his colleagues about a lot of these processes. So just talking with other people who are in a similar situation was extremely helpful and I think that was kind of general advice, but I think that that was just so beneficial and useful for us. And then I guess something that would be more specific towards a Ph.D. and this may be more useful to someone who is considering PhD programs is to really look and consider that quality of life package portion of the Ph.D. like research interest that is super important. But having a livable arrangement is also extremely important for peace of mind, for for us for being able to navigate like changes in life like these and stuff. So I’ve made sure that I’ve read over like all of our health care options, for example, because I knew I was going to be married and I knew that for us, pregnancy was a very real option for us during my Ph.D. So, I want to see like, what would that look like? What what coverage do they have and what kind of protections do they have? So looking into all of that before choosing whether or not to accept a program was really important for me.

44:45 Emily: Yeah. And like, look how how quickly that information came into play for you in this first year. And even just going back that decision of like, can I afford this apartment on just my income alone? And how much like that one decision cascaded through this year and is helping you to afford all these other life changes that are going on. So it’s wonderful. Again, congratulations. Thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast. And I’m really excited for all of this wonderful stuff that’s going to happen for you.

45:15 Madeline H: Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure. I’m really happy to have been able to have the opportunity to be here with you and and to share a little bit about what’s going on in my life.

Outtro

45:28 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Dual PhD Couple in Seattle Spending $20k/Year on Rent

July 23, 2018 by Emily

In this episode, I break down my own budget from 2017. My husband and I earn about $100,000 per year and live in Seattle, WA with our two small children. I detail our top five expenses (rent, groceries, travel, kid spending, and transportation) as well as the financial goals that we’re currently working toward. I give some advice for a budget-conscious person moving to Seattle. Finally, I share what it’s like to be a renter in Seattle’s rapidly inflating housing market, spending nearly $20,000 per year on rent and feeling shut out of the housing market.

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Links mentioned in episode

1:05 Q1: Where do you live and what is your income?

My husband, Kyle, and I live in Seattle, WA, with our two daughters, a 2-year-old and a newborn. We moved here in 2015 for Kyle to take a job at a biotech start-up. I am self-employed; Personal Finance for PhDs is my main business, and I also have a side hustle. Our household income in 2017 was around $100,000.

Further reading:

1:40 Budgeting Background Info

Kyle and I practice percentage-based budgeting, which means that from our gross income we:
- Pay income and FICA tax
  - through payroll deductions on Kyle’s income.
  - through quarterly estimated tax on my self-employment income.
- Tithe (donate 10% to our church).
- Save into retirement accounts (20% in 2018, 18% in 2017).
We live on one income. Kyle earns most of household income and has a regular salary, so we base our budget entirely off of his income after the percentage-based allocations. All of my income after the percentage-based allocations goes to savings. This helped a lot when my self-employment income was irregular, although now I pay myself a salary.
We budget for our regular (monthly) and irregular (yearly) expenses. More details about this system can be found in Season 1 Episode 1.

Further reading: How to Pay Tax on Your PhD Side Hustle

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4:19 Q2: What are your five largest expenses each month?

Our total spending in 2017 was approximately $47,500 (excluding the above percentage-based allocations and health insurance premium paid as a payroll deduction).

5:09 #1 Expense: Rent

In 2017, we spent $18,870 on rent, which is a monthly average $1,570 and 40% of our total spending.

Our rent went from $1495 per month to $1645 per month.

We live inside Seattle city limits. Our apartment in older building with no amenities. The apartment is approximately 850 square feet and has two bedrooms and one bathroom. We chose the apartment based almost solely on location and price.

When we next move, we definitely want to get a place with a dishwasher! Our kitchen is pretty small. We cook and eat in a lot and with two little kids so we wash a lot of dishes every day.

6:38 #2 Expense: Groceries and Household Consumables

In 2017, we spent $7,733.54 on groceries and household consumables, which is a monthly average of $644.46 and 16% of our total spending.

This amount of spending feels high to me, and this is a category that I keep a close eye on.

We meal plan, eat virtually every meal out of our own kitchen, and usually buy food on the less processed side of the spectrum. We shop mostly at Costco and Fred Meyer and also a little at QFC. We don’t seek out organic or similar food except when we buy directly from the from farmer’s market.

Most likely the reason we spend a lot in this category is simply that we eat a lot, and the food we eat is on the more expensive side of the spectrum. These days, we alternate between eating low carb/Whole30-ish and eating the standard American diet, which means we are consistently eating meat and often dairy, which are both more expensive categories.

Our typical meals are:

Breakfast: Egg casserole with sausage, sweet potato, onion, and spinach.
Lunch: Chicken yellow curry, chili, sausage and eggplant hash, fish plus sautéed spinach or zucchini.
Dinner: Meat with vegetable, e.g., balsamic vinegar chicken and roasted asparagus. Kyle’s favorite meal: Brussels sprouts bowls. One of my favorite meals: Mexican breakfast bowls.
Snack: PB and almonds

Our toddler is a very good eater. We followed the baby led weaning technique, and now she eats the food we do plus more milk, fruit, and cheese.

9:57 #3 Expense: Travel

In 2017, we spent $3,482.47 on travel, which is a monthly average of $290.21 and 7% of our total spending.

I was surprised that travel ended up in our top 5 because I perceive that we travel much less than before we had children.

In 2017 we traveled on five occasions: two weddings, our 10-year college reunion, a memorial service, and to one of our parents’ homes for Christmas.

In addition to the flights, on various of these trips we paid for hotels, rental cars, meals, entertainment, and registration.

We definitely spend more per trip than when we were in grad school. Flying with a baby has spurred us to take direct flights at convenient times of day instead of purchasing the lowest fare available.

Our current frugal practice regarding travel is to rewards credit cards; we currently have the Alaska Airlines credit card and the Chase Sapphire Reserve credit card.

12:10 #4 Expense: Miscellaneous Kid Spending

In 2017, we spent $2,688.66 on miscellaneous expenses for our oldest daughter, which is a monthly average of $224.06 and 6% of our total income.

This is the category I have the least handle on as it is so unpredictable.

Our one regular expense included in this category was preschool tuition, but that only applied for a few months

Our spending out of this category was all over the place

Medical copays, occupational therapy copays, breastfeeding medicine.
Travel car seat and travel stroller (in addition to the ones we use at home).
Bookcase, mattresses for grandparents’ houses, jacket, and teether.
Toddler class at the local community center and zoo membership

This is a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants category.

I was surprised these miscellaneous kid expenses as a category cracked top 5 because our first-time-parent start-up expenses hit in 2016.

14:30 #5: Transportation

In 2017, we spent $2385.77, which is a monthly average of $197.98 and 5% of our total spending.

I really thought transportation expenses wouldn’t be in our top five; low transportation spending is a point of pride for me!

It turns out that 30% of the spending was from our regular monthly budget, and 70% was from our irregular expenses budget. Our regular expenses included gas and parking, whereas our irregular expenses included car insurance, registration, and maintentance.

We own one older car and don’t use it for commuting. Kyle has a sub-10 minute bike commute and I work from home. We generally just use the car for errands, activities with the kids, church, grocery shopping, etc.

Those irregular expenses hit in only 3 months of the entire year, which is why I sort of forgot about them. We pay our car insurance once every 6 months, and it’s inexpensive. We spent over $1000 in car repairs/maintenance in 2017, which was unusually high and not a yearly occurrence.

All of our top 5 expense categories together accounted for 74% of total yearly spending.

17:20 Q3: What are you currently doing to further your financial goals?

1: Retirement Savings

We save a fixed 20% of our gross income into our retirement accounts.

We actually don’t use Kyle’s 401(k) through work at all because of high fees. Instead, we put our retirement savings into our two Roth IRAs and my individual 401(k), which we had total control over. Kyle’s 401(k) is the account of last resort because there is no match.

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2: Down Payment Savings

In 2017, we saved 21.7% of my income and all of our self-tax refund for a down payment on a home.

Further reading: Creating Our Self-Tax Refund

In early 2018, paused our down payment savings to save into a fund to help with expenses and lost income associated with the birth of our 2nd daughter’s.

Once those expenses have settled, we’ll resume saving for our down payment. In the remainder of 2018, we plan to save a fixed rate from Kyle’s income plus 22.7% of my income.

Our initial down payment goal was $60,000, but now that we’re getting close to that number, we want to keep saving and perhaps make $100,000 our next goal. We’re not necessarily shooting for a 20% down payment, but having a lot of money available for the down payment, other fees and expenses, and moving costs will be good.

3: Kids’ College

We save a nominal amount of money toward our children’s college expenses. We plan to hit this goal harder after we buy our first home.

4: Paying Down Student Loan Debt

We are currently making only the minimum payments on a standard 10-year repayment plan on my student loans. Episode 1 explains why we have not yet paid off these loans. However, as of the day of the recording, we received an update on the loans and decided to pay them off completely.

20:47 Q4: What don’t you spend money on that might surprise people?

1: Kid Expenses

A: Childcare

We don’t spend much money on childcare because of the way we have structured our life. Kyle has a regular job, and I’m self- employed. I’m also our children’s primary daytime caregiver. I work when Kyle is home with the kids and when they are sleeping. In 2017, I worked around 20 hours per week with this system. When I travel for speaking engagements, we hire sitters through a service we subscribe to, but this is irregular. We don’t have any regular childcare as of now. We are considering hiring a part-time nanny this fall since we now have two kids to help keep my work hours up.

B: Diapering and Clothing

We cloth diaper, which means we paid a bunch of money for diapers in 2016 but not in 2017. We use disposable diapers when we travel and disposable wipes sometimes.

Further reading: Cloth Diapering in an Apartment

We didn’t have to spend any money on clothes in 2017. The communities we’re plugged into gave us lots of gifts, hand-me-downs, and borrowed clothes.

Further reading: Outfitting Our Baby with Hand-Me-Down, Borrowed, and Used Stuff

When we buy stuff for our kids, we often look to the secondhand market first.

2: Eating Out

We only spent $254.38 on eating out in 2017, which is an average of $21.20 per month. This is a shockingly low figure to me. Since having our first child, we basically don’t go out to eat or get take-out any more!

We don’t drink coffee, which many people pay for out of the house.

Kyle does buy a beer at occasional happy hours with his coworkers, which probably accounts for a good fraction of the spending in this category. I’m in a non-drinking phase of life due to breastfeeding and pregnancy.

3: Entertainment

Our only recurring entertainment expense is Netflix. We are still avid Duke basketball fans, but as we’re not attending games anymore that is an inexpensive hobby.

This low spending is a big change from before we had kids. We used to have season tickets to the Broadway musicals series our local theater, which is not something we’re doing now.

Most of our entertainment now revolves around our toddler: going out doing activities or playing with friends and even at home. We attend lots of free activities around Seattle: parks, toddler rooms and gyms at community centers, and libraries. We also hang out with her toddler friends and our kids tag along to game nights with our friends.

I’m chalking this low spending up to this being a unique phase of life! We expect to spend more in this category again later.

26:31 Q5: What are you happy with in your spending and what would you like to change?

Overall I am quite happy with our spending and progress toward our financial goals.

I don’t love that we spend almost $20,000 per year on rent, but it is reasonable for this city.

I’m not so happy with the grocery and kid expenses.

I feel like we’re spending a lot on groceries. I have some frugal practices, but could do more. During the Frugal Blitz this coming September, I will focus on frugalizing my groceries.

I don’t mind spending what we do on the children, I just want it to be more predictable! Perhaps we will institute a monthly cap on spending or try to anticipate the larger expenses as they grow.

28:11 Q6: What is your best advice for someone new to your city who is budget-conscious?

Focus on housing and transportation: Do your research in advance about where to live and what your commute will be like.

Renting and buying in Seattle is on a quick timeline. Places listed for rent are available immediately or like one week out, and little notice is required when you move out of a place. In 2015 when we moved to Seattle, the rental market was quite competitive. We had to make quick decisions on where to apply and compete with others.

We handled this market by researching the prices in the neighborhoods of interest before we started our moving trip, even though we were not expecting that any of those same rentals would be available when we arrived. This gave us the ability to spot a good deal.

Further reading: Apartment Search in Seattle

You should factor in your commute if you know where you’ll be working. A lot of people avoid the higher housing prices by living outside of Seattle, but that usually increases their commute time. We chose to eliminate the commute and pay the higher housing cost so that we could have more time together.

Don’t assume you’ll commute by car. Over 50% of people in Seattle commute by other methods: bus, biking, walking.

30:52: Q7: Would you like to make any other comments on what it takes to get by where you live on what you earn?

In Seattle, the high tech industry is quite dominant. Those positions are very well paid, and housing costs are being driven up quickly.

In 2017 and the first half of 2018, Seattle had the fastest-appreciating housing market.

Housing prices are heading up quickly, and it’s very discouraging for renters/first-time buyers.

Purchasing a home in our current neighborhood (maintaining that short commute) would be very difficult for us. Even earning $100,000 per year, the most we could afford in our neighborhood is the lowest priced condo possible. The median home value in our neighborhood is almost $1,000,000. The median condo price in Seattle is nearly $550,000. It’s also very hard to not get swept up in the hype of the market.

We are leaning against ever buying in Seattle. Housing is quite a struggle for first-time home buyers.

I’d love to hear from other PhDs (in training) who make less than what we do on how you manage your expenses!

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Birthing a Baby Before You Birth Your Dissertation

June 7, 2017 by Emily

Financial considerations for graduate students becoming parents.

If your relationship with your graduate advisor can be compared to a marriage, the dissertation you create together is your child. You conceive it together in early days and then spend 5 (or 6 or 7 or…) years raising it up until it can make its way into the world independently. That creative process is time-, energy-, and emotion-intensive, not to mention financially limiting due to the small stipend you receive in those years.

Is it possible to bring a human child into your family in the midst of your graduate degree and still see it to a successful completion? Plenty of newly minted PhDs celebrate their accomplishment alongside their children. But having a baby during graduate school may be even more of a challenge to your time and finances than doing so before or after.

When you are deciding whether to have a child during grad school or preparing for one already on the way, the two key areas in which you need to make space are your time and money. In this article, I outline the largest monetary costs that you will incur in the first year of your child’s life and discuss ways to minimize those expenses. The first things to come to mind when you think of these costs may be clothing, toys, or a crib, but those are actually among the more minor expenses.

Medical Care and Insurance

Prenatal, postpartum, and ongoing medical care are necessary for mother and baby, so check your insurance policies. Research the out-of-pocket costs for an uncomplicated birth with each of the providers and settings you are considering, and ask your insurance company about your deductibles and co-pays. Midwifery care tends to be less expensive than obstetric care, but that may or may not be in line with your birth preferences or affect your bottom line. You have time to save up a fund to pay for your part of the birth expenses. You should also make sure your emergency fund is a healthy size in case mother or baby experiences complications that will add to the expense.

After the birth, you can choose to add the child to either parent’s insurance policy; assuming the care options are comparable, you can choose the one that you expect to be less expensive to you between the premiums and the out-of-pocket costs. An open enrollment period prior to or during pregnancy also provides an opportunity to switch the mother’s insurance provider if that is advantageous.

If you are adding the baby to your graduate student insurance policy, expect to pay a (higher) premium. Also be aware that while a typical health insurance premium would be paid incrementally with each paycheck, your grad student insurance might require a lump sum up front for each term or year.

Parental Leave

Your university or department may have a parental leave policy in place. It should outline the amount of time you are permitted to take off; whether the leave will be unpaid, paid, or at partial pay; and whether benefits such as insurance will continue. If there is no official parental leave policy, there may be one regarding leave for a medical or an unspecified reason that will apply or a vacation policy. Failing that, it will be down to you to negotiate your leave with your advisor and possibly department. This is also a great opportunity to negotiate a different schedule for after the baby arrives.

The reason leave is included as a major cost is because of the potential loss of income. The length of your leave might be influenced by what you can afford. Similar to your medical expenses, use the time you have leading up to the birth to save a dedicated fund out of which you can pay your expenses during your unpaid or partial-pay leave.

Childcare

Childcare is easily one of the largest costs you will incur in the first year of your baby’s life, and it can be paid in either money or the caregiver’s time (i.e., opportunity cost).

If you are going to pay for childcare, compare all your local options: daycare, a nanny or nanny share, or babysitters. As a graduate student, you may be eligible to receive a subsidy for daycare on- or off-campus. Consider whether you need full-time or part-time care; if you have flexibility in when you work and money is more scarce than time, perhaps you only need part-time care.

Some families may be able to arrange for childcare that does not involve an exchange of money. One parent can cease working or move to a part-time schedule, both parents can work different ‘shifts’ so one is always with the baby, or another family member may donate his or her time. This is highly dependent on your existing resources, the flexibility of your work, and how you want to spend your time.

Be very cautious about assigning your time a value equal to that of your stipend ‘hourly rate.’ This line of thought leads many lower-income workers to the conclusion that it is financially advantageous to quit a job to become a full-time caregiver rather than to pay for childcare. This is short-sighted because it does not consider future career advancement and income increases. While you are in graduate school, your income is suppressed, but you can greatly increase it by finishing graduate school and moving on to a higher-paying job. It can make financial sense to pay a comparable or higher rate for childcare than you earn from your stipend if it speeds your progress toward your post-grad school job.

Space

Just about every year a new ‘cost of raising a child’ calculation is performed. For example, in 2015 the headline cost of raising a child to age 18 was $230,000 (this is an average over all income levels and parenting choices). The largest component of that cost calculation (29%) was for housing. If you decide to move to a larger dwelling to accommodate your new child, you must account for that additional monthly cost. Depending on your parenting decisions, that’s not necessarily a cost you will incur immediately – the American Academy of of Pediatrics recommends sleeping in the same room as your infant for the first year – but eventually more space will become necessary.

Insurance

If you have not yet had reason to purchase life insurance, the birth of your first child will almost certainly motivate you to do so. The purpose of life insurance is to provide for anyone who would be financially impacted by your death. The most cost-effective type of life insurance to buy is term life insurance, not whole life or universal life. You can shop online or through an independent insurance broker to find the best policy and price for you.

Food

While the average American spends less than 10% of their disposable income on food (both at home and out), I consider food to be a major regular budget line item for graduate students (often third-largest after housing and transportation). Therefore, an infant’s food could also have a significant impact on the family’s budget. The choice to breastfeed or formula-feed – to the extent that it is a choice – is a parenting decision that has a monetary cost either way. Expect to spend some money in this category, whether on formula, bottles, breastfeeding supplies, or extra food for the mother. Starting between 4 and 6 months of age, you’ll also start purchasing solid foods for your child.

Further reading: Breastfeeding Ain’t Free

Diapers

Another significant cost in a baby’s first year of life is waste management, i.e., diapers, wipes, diapering supplies, etc. This cost is less avoidable than some of the previously listed ones (except by practicing elimination communication and potty training early), but it can be minimized. If you are using disposable diapers, it’s all about sourcing the least expensive diapers that work for your baby. Cloth diapering requires an up-front investment, but becomes less expensive than disposable diapering within the first year and realizes large savings in subsequent years and for subsequent children.

Further reading: Cloth Diapering in an Apartment

Stuff

Most of the remaining money that you will spend in your child’s first year of life are one-time purchases of various items, such as a car seat, stroller/carrier, furniture, linens, clothing, toys, and books. If you receive gifts or hand-me-downs, they will likely be in this category, so some of the cost might not be borne by your budget. You might even be able to borrow many of these types of items from a family with a child slightly older than yours. A parents’ group at your university could be a great resource in this respect. Whatever you do need to buy can be bought used, though be careful for highly regulated items like car seats and cribs that they are compliant.

Further reading: Outfitting Our Baby with Hand-Me-Down, Borrowed, and Used Stuff

While this list may appear overwhelming, not every cost may apply to your family and there are ways to minimize each one. For the costs that you expect to incur, the best way to decide if you can afford them is to pretend that you are paying them now. Draft a post-baby budget that includes your monthly additional cost for housing, childcare, purchases, etc. and see if you can live on the remainder right now. Funnel all the cash flow you are trying to do without into a dedicated fund for your child that can ultimately pay for your start-up costs.

What was the toughest financial aspect of having a baby while in grad school and how did you work through it?