In this episode, Emily interviews Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu and Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia, the co-authors of the recent book Is Grad School for Me? Demystifying the Application Process for First-Gen BIPOC Students. Yvette, Miroslava, and Emily dive into the financial aspects of the grad school application and admissions process, from applying for external fellowships to negotiating funding offers to preparing financially to start graduate school. Yvette and Miroslava share their personal experiences as well as their insights from prospective students involved with Yvette’s Grad School Femtoring coaching and podcast and Miroslava’s McNair program at UCSB. This episode is a must-listen for prospective PhD students, especially those who come from underrepresented backgrounds.

Links mentioned in the Episode

• Book Giveaway for Is Grad School for Me? (Deadline to enter is 7/24/2024)
• Is Grad School for Me? Demystifying the Application Process for First-Gen BIPOC Students
  • Use the code UCPSAVE30 at the UC press website to get 30% off your purchase of the book
• Host a PF for PhDs Seminar at Your Institution
• Emily’s E-mail Address
• PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
• PF for PhDs Podcast Hub

Teaser

Yvette (00:00): One year, there was one student who was really, really struggling financially, had gotten into his top choice, had to move from California to the Midwest, and he couldn’t even afford his airfare. So he contacted his soon to be advisor, told that person his situation like, look, I, you know, I’m really trying to make it things work. I’m trying to work, I, but I, I just can’t afford my flight. And that advisor, without even thinking twice, bought him the flight.

Introduction

Emily (00:37): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:06): This is Season 18, Episode 4, and today my guests are Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu and Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia, the co-authors of the recent book Is Grad School for Me? Demystifying the Application Process for First-Gen BIPOC Students. Yvette, Miroslava, and I dive into the financial aspects of the grad school application and admissions process, from applying for external fellowships to negotiating funding offers to preparing financially to start graduate school. Yvette and Miroslava share their personal experiences as well as their insights from prospective students involved with Yvette’s Grad School Femtoring coaching and podcast and Miroslava’s McNair program at UCSB. This episode is a must-listen for prospective PhD students, especially those who come from underrepresented backgrounds. In fact, I think Is Grad School for Me? is a must-read as well, so I’m giving away three copies of this book to listeners of this podcast. If you are applying to PhD programs in fall 2024 and are in the target audience for this book, i.e., a person of color who is a first-generation, low-income, and or non-traditional student, you can enter the giveaway at PFforPhDs.com/isgradschoolforme/. I would also appreciate you sharing this episode with any prospective graduate students in your life. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s18e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu and Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia, the co-authors of Is Grad School for Me?

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:56): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Yvette Martínez-Vu and Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia, who are the authors of the recent book Is Grad School for Me? Demystifying the Application Process for First-Gen BIPOC Students. And as you might imagine, well this guide is incredible for this population and frankly, any prospective graduate student, I highly recommend the book. I just finished it a couple of weeks ago and there’s a lot of financial content within this, as you might imagine. So I was really excited to reach out to these authors and get them on the podcast so we can dive even further into the financial aspects of the application and the admissions process for graduate school. So, Yvette, Miroslava, again, welcome to the podcast. Would you please introduce yourselves a little bit further for the listeners? Yvette, why don’t you go first?

Yvette (03:41): Yes, of course. Hi everyone, my name is Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu. I’m a first gen Chicana, chronically ill neurodivergent productivity and grad school coach, consultant, author, speaker. Um, I do a lot of things. I have a PhD in theater and performance studies. I worked in higher ed for over 10 years supporting predominantly low income first gen students of color. That’s actually how I met Miros a few years back. Actually, at the start of the pandemic, she became my supervisor. And since then we’ve developed and nurtured a great relationship, which has manifested in US publishing and co-authoring this book together. So that’s a little bit more about me and what I do.

Miroslava (04:25): Great. Yeah. Hi. So I’m Miroslava Chavez-Garcia and I’m a professor of history and I’m also the faculty director of the UCSB McNair Scholars Program. So I’ve been at UCSB probably for the last 10 years, and before that I was at UC Davis, and then I had another job before that. So I’ve been in the game for a little while. Um, also a product from UCLA PhD Yvette and I have that in common as well. And what else about myself? So I’m also a mom juggling with children and a little needy dog. So life just keeps happening no matter what phase you are.

Grad School for Me? Demystifying the Application Process for First-Gen BIPOC Students

Emily (04:59): Fantastic. So let’s hear more about the book. Um, who is the intended audience for the book and why did you write it

Yvette (05:05): As referenced in the title of the book, uh, Is Grad School for Me? Demystifying the Application Process for First-Gen BIPOC students. The book is predominantly, um, catered to first gen bipoc students. But then, um, more broadly, we also address concerns for anyone who fits the quote unquote low income category or also non-traditional categories. So we’re thinking here of, you know, folks from working class backgrounds, we’re thinking of folks who, uh, maybe ages 25 and older. We know that more and more college campuses are no longer having what we may consider traditional students. A lot more of the, uh, student population is going back, they’re older, they have dependents, they have other commitments, and we wanted to meet, be able to address those other factors that individuals consider when they’re thinking about whether or not they want to pursue graduate school.

Miroslava (06:02): Yeah, definitely. I think that we were really interested in this, these folks who had not seen themselves reflected in all the literature that’s out there. So in looking at what’s been written, um, it’s all kind of cookie cutter in some ways. And they imagine maybe they don’t even imagine who, but we imagine it’s not us, right? When we’re looking at these books. And so we were very much with that intention to be able to provide a guide to all those folks who perhaps didn’t see themselves, um, you know, reflected and, and, um, and that was really important to us. And initially, I would have to say for myself, and I’m not sure if that had this thought, I was thought like, what, is there enough? Are there enough of an, is there enough of an audience for this? And, and yes, there is, you know, it’s, it’s that sort of, um, audience that we don’t hear from, but they’re definitely there. And the press was very, um, supportive of, of this, um, of, of, of the approach of the book. So we’re really happy that we were able to, um, target this population that’s been overlooked for so long.

Yvette (06:56): I have had the idea for this book since I was an undergrad. I was part of the inaugural cohort of Mellon May Fellows at UCLA. And despite the fact that I was in a very privileged position of getting into this prestigious graduate school preparation program, despite receiving ample support, I still was stumbling so much along the way. There was still so much information that I was missing out on. I still struggled to find mentors femtors, and I felt really frustrated and I found myself constantly pulling, you know, trying to find from the weeds as many resources as I could and then sharing them. And every year I was always surprised like, why is there not a book like this? Why is there not a book like this? I don’t see myself represented, not just, um, among the faculty, among my department. I was an English, uh, literature major at the time, but even within the literature, the research, the books I was running into, I didn’t, again, I didn’t see anyone like me a First Gen Chicana represented. And I wish that I had had that how to book. So that was, you know, an idea that I had many, many years ago. Of course, it didn’t come into fruition until Miros literally asked me when I’m gonna be writing a book. I never took it seriously until she approached me. And I thank her for her Femtorship and for her support and guidance, even through this publication process. This work wouldn’t have happened if it hadn’t been for the two of us coming together.

Miroslava (08:26): Like Yvette, most of my career has been focused on doing this kind of work, right? The hidden cur- un- unraveling or uncovering the hidden curriculum, addressing all of those isms, all these things that we feel, but we can’t quite put our finger on it. And so, um, when I was in grad school, there were some guides, but nothing like in the last that has been produced in the last 10, 15 years. And I didn’t even think we could encapsulate. And, and granted, this is not all about grad school. This is about just applying, right? So, but we’ve, it’s a pretty hefty book and we’ve top- tackled one topic. I think there’s many more that can be tackled, um, in the future. There’s other books out there as well. But definitely, um, it’s nice that we’re able to bring so many things together. I, with my more years in academia, but Yvette, with all of our up to date since, you know, things get really quickly, get out of date in academia and there’s new things, new trends, new um, approaches, um, especially we see right now a lot of changes happening. But yeah, it would just worked really well actually.

Emily (09:21): And if someone is convinced already that they need to get their hands on this book, where can they find it?

Yvette (09:26): Yeah, you can get it at IsGradSchoolForMe.com, and you can also find it at most major bookstores and even, um, a good number of independent bookstores have it too.

Miroslava (09:36): And definitely the press. And there is, um, if, if, if, uh, listeners are interested, they can contact us. We have, there’s a, there’s a discount code for now as well. It should probably be there for a while. That makes it more accessible to our, our population

Yvette (09:48): Yeah, you, you can go to the UC press website and this code should work it’s ucpsave30. So again, ucpsave30, it should work as far as we know. We don’t, it doesn’t have an expiration. So if you wanna get it and get it 30% off, um, go ahead and, um, get your copy directly from uc press.

Financial Support During Grad School and It’s Impact on Student Success

Emily (10:10): Perfect. And I definitely learned from reading the book that you all, uh, have an aligned position with mine that having, um, sufficient financial support during graduate school is very important to the students’ overall academic and personal success throughout that time period. Um, can you elaborate on that idea a little bit more? Um, how important is this? I mean, I know you said in the book like, you know, we discourage taking out student loans for our graduate degree and so forth. So just tell me a little bit more about how you came to that position.

Yvette (10:40): I mean, I think a, a big part of it is our experience, uh, both personal experience, experience working with student- with this population in particular for a lot of low income first gen students of color. The question of can I afford it and will I have adequate fund- funding is a very, very important question. And without it, some of them are even willing to go the extra mile of pursuing graduate school. So yeah, getting an advanced degree, especially pursuing a PhD is a significant investment in time, effort, resources. And for some, it’s not even an option without having at least some funding. So that’s why for us, it’s important for them to know, you know, what are the differences in funding options is between PhD programs, between master’s programs, what are these funding options packages even look like? That’s why we provided samples in the book because, um, the more financial burdens you have, if you don’t come in with generational wealth or trust funds or a savings account, just some sort of support, that means that a lot of people end up taking on insurmountable amounts of debt, debt that holds them back from reaching other major life milestones, or they end up staying one too many years in graduate school, they’re having to juggle multiple jobs to make ends meet. Or for a lot of people, they end up getting pushed out. We know that 50% of folks who go into PhD programs don’t actually make it and get to finish. And that’s a problem. And I wouldn’t be surprised if sometimes funding plays a factor in that. So we do think it’s important to, to consider the funding aspects of it, um, when you’re thinking about grad school as your next step in your career.

Miroslava (12:24): Yeah, definitely. One thing that we tackle a lot throughout the book is this idea of fit. Like is this program or this, you know, university institution for me, and one of the, I would say one of the main, you know, sort of categories of that would be around funding. I know my department does not take any PhD students. We can talk about master’s program that’s a little bit different or could be quite different. But PhD programs, we will not take anybody without funding. I mean, we have to bring in people who have support them. So that’s been going on for a while now. And I think lots of programs run that way. Uh, the PhD programs, at least in the humanities where, you know, there’s so much upfront and then no guarantee on the other end that you’re gonna be able to make up pay off that loan and, and, you know, thrive if you’re able to do that, the STEM fields might be a little bit different, but I know that in humanities, um, institutions are a little more cognizant of that, um, disconnect. Sometimes it happens.

Emily (13:13): This is something that I point out when I speak with, um, prospective graduate students. Current undergraduate students is like the funding mechanism for your undergraduate degree and professional graduate degrees is just completely different from, you know, the PhD or the, the research based graduate degrees. And while it may be perfectly okay, um, to take out debt for, um, an MD or a JD or a similar type of degree like that, it’s because the salaries on the other side of that justify taking out that debt. And depending on the PhD field that you’re in, as you just said, Mirsolava, you don’t really know what kind of career you’re going to have or what that salary is going to be on the other side. So it’s that much more important to make sure that your, um, PhD is, um, uh, you’re not, um, leveraging your future <laugh>, uh, when you’re doing that PhD, you’re only building into the future. And so in your book, one of the, one of the sections is about, um, applying for external fellowships in particular. And so why did you take the time in the book to encourage prospective graduate students to apply for that type of fellowship?

Yvette (14:14): You know, I’ll, I’ll share a personal anecdote in relation to this question. When I went into my PhD program, I was awarded a prestigious fellowship. It was a departmental fellowship, and everybody told me, oh, you got full funding, you’re good to go. You don’t have to worry about applying for anything else. And I remember my advisor at the time discouraging me from applying to external fellowships and only later on finding out about fellowships that covered multiple years that could have provided me with additional years of being on a fellowship could have minimized my teaching burden and could have even increased my chances of getting more competitive dissertation year fellowships later on. So for me, I do think it’s important, it’s not just the financial advantage of having another offer that you can then use to leverage your funding package and to shift things around as best as you can, depending on your department and their flexibility, but also access to a network. So for instance, when I became a four dissertation year fellow, I was, you know, I, I entered this space of networking, I joined the national conferences, I started meeting up with people for networking meetings, and I realized, wow, there’s like this whole world of Ford fellows out there that I didn’t know that I could have been exposed to earlier if I had known to apply to the Ford Predoctoral Fellowship if I had been encouraged. So I do think that it, it only increases your chances of, um, having access to more opportunities, having access to bigger networks. So why not do that? Why, like, don’t put all your eggs in one basket and expect to only get funding from your department or even from your program.

Miroslava (16:02): Yeah, and I would definitely agree. I’m also a Ford postdoctoral fellow. I tried the pre-doc and the dissertation, um, but the postdoc was fortunate to get that. And so Yvette’s talking about the networks, like you can’t put a dollar price on those because they’ll stay with you throughout your career. Particularly with the Ford, they always talk about us being a family and people, um, you know, in a good way, <laugh>, I don’t, so families, uh, you know, uh, but those relationships are there. They reach out to you for networking. So it’s, that’s really valuable. I think another thing to think about as well is that they bring prestige. I hate to, you know, I’m not a big, you know, showy kind of person, but nevertheless institution, it brings prestige to the, you know, value to you. Um, it shows that other institutions also value what you’re doing and it also brings more hum umph to your, the significance of your work. And I think that anytime that happens, you know, it’s, it’s for the, for the work, it’s for your subject, it’s for your project, your research, and that’s a win-win. So

Emily (16:56): I think all those reasons are so fantastic to apply for fellowships, apply for fellowships throughout your PhD, not just early on. As you said before, you aren’t when you aren’t sure what your funding is going to be. Um, but I particularly like them for prospective graduate students because, um, during admission season, it can be quite an advantage to have already been awarded an external fellowship. You can come to your program and say, Hey, I’m actually, you thought you were gonna fund me, but I’m actually bringing in X amount of dollars from this other fellowship that, that I just won. Um, can you speak more about the, um, advantages to, to that situation for that perspective graduate student?

Commercial

Emily (17:36): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2024-2025 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Orientations or very close to the start of the academic year would be a perfect time for tax education or general personal finance content. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Negotiating as a Prospective Grad Student

Miroslava (19:03): I, I will, if it’s okay, I’m gonna jump in. I’ll give a specific example of one of our, our McNair scholars who, um, had applied to many institutions and, um, a prestigious one UCLA. She would I think she applied in the STEM fields and she got an NSF and that decision happened like overnight. I mean that they, the door was open quickly at UCLA for her to come in. They’re like, oh, come step right in. And, and so she took that position, but she had been, wait, not waitlisted, but I think she hadn’t heard. Um, and so that really granted her that, um, you know, provided I say the ticket to make her own decisions and choices. And so, um, that’s the example I like to share.

Yvette (19:40): I’ve seen the same scenario, so I was gonna say almost an identical scenario, but with a different student <laugh>. Yeah.

Emily (19:48): Yeah, because sometimes the reason for a rejection is not anything lacking in the candidate, it’s just the funding is not gonna go far enough to accept as many people as we would like, or, you know, this particular advisor didn’t have funding, but if you come with it, then you can work with that person. Um, and so it can reverse those decisions or get you off a wait list or whatever that, um, you know, situation might be. And it also provides you leverage for negotiation <laugh>.

Emily (20:12): So let’s talk about that next. I loved that you included information about negotiation in this book. I think a few years ago I didn’t really hear that many people talking about it, but it’s been, I’ve just heard more and more people familiar, like prospective graduate students when I bring up negotiation, they’re like, oh yeah, I, someone already told me I was able to do that, or at least able to attempt it. Right. So let’s talk about that, um, a little bit further. Like, how have you seen prospective graduate students successfully negotiated their funding packages? Do you have any tips about how they should do so?

Yvette (20:40): I think that it’s always important to tread the waters carefully, right? When it comes to negotiating. And it’s also good to have all of your information available. So you wanna know, don’t start to negotiate before you know, you know, what is even feasible. So, um, I’ve, I’ve seen a lot of different scenarios. Uh, one of the most successful scenario that I’ve seen work time and time again is where when someone gets multiple offers and then they send their best offer to their top choice school who maybe may is offering less, and they ask if they can match or increase their offer. And in many cases, they either increase or match it, or sometimes they say, you know what? This is the best that we can offer you. We still really want you, but there’s no way we can compete with that. And it’s up to the student to decide maybe sometimes it is worth it for them to accept the lower offer because cost of living might be different and cost of living makes it so that that’s actually a better offer financially at the end of the day when you crunch the numbers and, and create your budget. So that’s one scenario where that’s been fairly successful. What I’ve also noticed is that a lot of times folks don’t feel like they can negotiate because they say, oh, well I don’t have another offer, or, oh, they’re not offering me any funding. How can I ask? And in these scenarios, I mean, it doesn’t hurt to ask, it is rare. In fact, I’ve only seen this happen for summer programs, but it, it’s rare for folks to have their offer rescinded because they asked for more. Of course, you want to be conscientious, of course you want to be grateful, of course you want to express your enthusiasm. Um, but you can ask, and I’ve seen this happen more than once, where someone didn’t get any, they got into a master’s program, didn’t get awarded any funding, asked if there was any funding that they could apply for or that they were eligible for and could be considered for. And the next thing you know, a few days later, they’ve got a $12,000 scholarship that wasn’t there before. I’m like, so overnight you got $12,000 for asking, you wouldn’t have had that. Aside from that, a lot of applicants don’t know what else they can ask for. It’s not always just tuition remission, it’s not always just a stipend. Some graduate students get, uh, a laptop covered, some graduate students get their travel, um, or re- relocation expenses covered. Sometimes it’s partial, but it’s still something some, uh, I’m trying to think about other things that, that folks will ask for. I remember one year there was one student who was really, really struggling financially, had gotten into his top choice, had to move from California to the Midwest, and he couldn’t even afford his airfare. So he contacted his soon to be advisor, told that person his situation like, look, I, you know, I’m really trying to make it things work. I’m trying to work, I, but I, I just can’t afford my flight there. What can I do? Can I work for you? Like, is there any way that I can figure this out? And that advisor, without even thinking twice, bought him the flight. So it’s all about advocating for yourself. It’s about asking for what you need. It’s about building genuine reciprocal relationships, helping one another out. But it also, it’s about knowing again, what even can you ask for? And sometimes you get some stuff, sometimes you don’t. Uh, but I always kind of lean, lean on the side of asking because I wish that I had been taught this skill a lot earlier on. Now I have that skill of negotiating took many years trial and error. Um, but I, I just, I, I want folks to learn this skill as early as possible because it’s gonna continue to be an ongoing skill that they practice for the rest of their career.

Miroslava (24:26): Yeah, I would definitely agree that it’s like the biggest hurdle is even knowing what to ask. And I would, I was, I don’t wanna say I grew up in the generation, but I came of age in terms of academia that of my generation where we just didn’t ask. We were just grateful, right? As a, as a Chicano Latina, I was accepted first gen immigrant, you know, that I was being, I didn’t even know that this happened at all. So even for me to get comfortable after all these years, it’s really, really hard. So when you, if you’re newer, new-ish or newer ish coming into academia, practice it and you’ll get more comfortable. And, um, also there’s a question of like sharing information with your peers. That’s another topic as well. In terms of funding packages. Do you talk about them or not? Um, other, I’ll just add two more things that I’ve seen in, in the, the last, um, few years I’ve been academia a lot of times I, what I’ve seen in, um, in terms of packages is that it’s kind of set the amount, but the one thing you could do is you could ask for money to be moved around. Like instead of having that fellowship off the first semester, I’d like it to be off the second semester so you can negotiate those things. So moving money around. Also, another thing to not, not forget or, um, is summer funding. Um, ’cause a lot of these packages do not include summer funding and then summer rolls around, it’s like, oh, oh, you know, we’ve had horror stories here on my campus where students live in their cars and things like that because there’s no, they can’t afford, you know, rent in the summer In Santa Barbara here it’s very, very expensive. So some programs are getting much better at providing funding or helping them find some form of a TA ship over the summer. There’s a lot of course, a lot more online, um, online courses. There’s a huge push in our University of California system for more of those courses. And so that’s a, a space where graduate students can work and make some money over the summer. But, um, I would have summer funding like on the table when thinking about a program.

Emily (26:10): I love what kind of both of you pointed out in that, is that the, the, the start of the negotiation process or the pre-negotiations aspect is figuring out, just really having clarity on what the offer is on what the funding path is, both in the first year and in subsequent years. Um, and even just asking some clarifying questions like Yvette, your example of someone saying, well, you know, is there an internal fellowship that I could apply for anything that we can do here, um, that can sometimes result in, uh, the, the outcome you want from a negotiation without even feeling like a negotiation. You were just asking some clarifying questions. Oh, I didn’t see that there was, um, a moving stipend included in this offer, but I, I’ve seen other universities do that. Is that something that you all offer? That’s pretty like low stakes and easy to ask and it could potentially result in an offer being made. I think something that perspective graduate students should know about the negotiation process, and you all both kind of pointed this out in different ways, is that the, the director of graduate studies or whoever the person is that you’re approaching about this, um, potential augmentation of your funding offer, they know a lot more about what levers, you know, can be pulled, what can be adjusted than you do. And so I think it’s really helpful to keep your question or request very open-ended. Like is there anything that you could do to augment this package? I’m not sure how that could come about. Um, instead of saying something like, I must have my stipend increased by X many thousands of dollars because it’s an, that’s an easy no, a lot of times a base stipend can’t be increased because the rates are set, you know, above that person’s pay grade by far. But maybe there’s, you know, a top up fellowship that they could offer you. Maybe they can put your name forward for an internal fellowship. Maybe they could, uh, get you into subsidized housing. So they know all the kind of background things that could happen much better than you do. And so I think, yeah, just keeping it open-ended is a good idea. Do you have any other tips about the negotiation process that you’d like to add?

Yvette (27:57): Well, there’s one thing that you just reminded me of is about asking clarifying questions. Because not every offer looks the same. Some are very clear and they lay out every year what you’re getting. And others are more vague. They’re like, you’re gonna be receiving a stipend of X amount every year in the program. Okay, how many years is guaranteed? And you wanna have that in writing. So first I would say get very clear about what your offer is because sometimes it’s not very clear and you’re made to feel like maybe you just aren’t reading it right. So I’ve had so many cases where folks ask me to read an offer alongside with them to make sure that they’re understanding it correctly. And then I go over, I’m like, yep, they’re not telling you how many years <laugh> you need to ask this and this and this. You need to ask about healthcare. ’cause healthcare is also not the same. You need to ask about professional development support because again, that’s not the same. I’ve had clients who have had their departments pay for my coaching services and I’ve had folks ask, and if they hadn’t asked, they wouldn’t have had that support. So you, again, just make sure before you negotiate, ask as many clarifying questions as you need to know exactly what you’re getting offered. And once you know what you’re getting offered, sometimes it can help to see if you get in somewhere else to compare and contrast the offers or compare and contrast to some of the offers we mentioned in the book. Which, you know, unfortunately, I would say they might become outdated at some sort, but, or at some point. But, um, sadly these stipends are not going up that much more. So you can kind of compare and contrast between your offer and a friend’s offer if they’re comfortable, your offer and another offer or your offering, even the samples that we have in the book. So you can get a sense of what information you do have, what information you’re missing and what’s, what are the things that are your priorities that you want to ask for. Even childcare is another one that comes up too, that people ask about. Yeah, yeah.

Miroslava (29:52): I, I will add to, um, to last things and something just piggyback on what Yvette was saying in terms of, uh, you might ask as well, like, will there be other opportunities for, um, fellowships or small grants in our program at the end of the year, we have the award ceremony and people apply for these smaller, you know, pots of money, a thousand, 2000 or even $500. Um, and sometimes those pot, those awards are for people working in specific areas, but sometimes the larger, beyond your department, the graduate division might have, um, fellowships for, um, maybe first generation students or maybe Asian American students working in a particular field. So again, like as Yvette saying doesn’t hurt to ask, um, are these opportunities available for me down the road?

Emily (30:33): I wanted to follow up on one of the thing you said Miroslava, which was that, you know, um, some time ago or, or back when you were admitted to graduate school, there was this attitude of, oh, they admitted me. I’m so grateful. This is amazing. I’m not maybe gonna look too closely at what this offer is. I’m just gonna say yes. Um, because you’re so flattered, right? To be admitted right to academia, this, um, this particular institution. And I, I definitely don’t think that attitude serves the student well. In fact, during the, um, admission season, after they’ve extended an offer of admission and before you accept it, that’s the time period when that student has really the most leverage and the most power in terms of negotiating and getting what they want and, and so forth, um, compared to any other time later on in graduate school. ’cause once you say yes to them, you’re committed. And the longer you spend in that program, kind of the more sunk costs, um, there are. And so you really don’t have as much as much leverage later on as you do during the application process. So I just wanna point that out as like, um, it’s, it’s a, it’s a golden opportunity <laugh>. So when you get are in that season, um, take the best advantage of it that you can because it’s not, it’s probably not gonna come around again, frankly.

Yvette (31:38): And I would encourage folks to get support in this process because for some of us, it’s also a major cultural difference and it feels wrong to do it. Like there’s guilt <laugh> and there’s shame involved in asking for more. And so it can help to lean on a mentor femtor, someone who’s been there, who has experienced that, who can push you or coach you or guide you so that way you can test it out and have that support. Maybe they come back, reply back, we can’t do this, but can we do that? And just that, just a lot of people do this even just professionally in their careers. They’ll hire someone to help them with the negotiation process. You know, a lot of folks, recruiters, you know, they work outside of academia, like this is the norm. But for a lot of first gen students, they don’t know this is the norm. And if they’re coming from different cultural backgrounds, then they’re made to feel like this is not okay. But it is. And, um, yeah, just if, if it’s really hard for you because it was for me at one point, get the help and support that you need from a trusted mentor Femtor,

Emily (32:44): I think something that might help with that, um, sort of realignment of mindset there is understanding that, again, as I said earlier, being sufficiently financially supported during your graduate degree is more likely to help you get to that desired end point, um, of graduating and moving on to a wonderful career, which is actually where your interests and the interests of the program are completely aligned. We, everybody wants that for the student. And if finances are going to, um, help that and help the person not be stressed and not be distracted and not have to side hustle and do all the other things that people have to do, um, to make ends meet, then that’s good for the program too. So I don’t think it’s, um, illegitimate at all to <laugh> to bring it up, but as you said it, it can take a little bit of an adjustment of, of the mindset and, um, dealing with the, the cultural backgrounds of everybody. So thank you so much for, um, for elaborating on those points.

Opportunity Costs of Pursuing a PhD

Emily (33:31): And then last question, or second to last question here, um, is let’s talk a little bit about what the opportunity costs are of pursuing a PhD because they are quite steep. And how should a prospective graduate student evaluate whether graduate school is going to be, um, a good investment for their career?

Yvette (33:50): I mean there, there are a lot of opportunity costs. Um, the first thing that comes to mind off the top of my head is the amount of time that a lot of people spend in graduate school. You might be spending anywhere from four to 10 years of your life in a PhD program. And while you, your income stays relatively the same, you’ve got colleagues whose income might be going up, who are advancing in their careers, who are getting promoted, and it can feel like that’s a big, um, that’s a big sacrifice that you’re making to pursue this PhD. So that’s one thing is the the income. The other thing I think about is, um, saving and oh, not saving, investing for retirement. A lot of times when folks are in graduate school, because your income is relatively low for a lot of people, unless you’re working on the side or working full time while you’re doing your PhD, you know, a lot of folks put their, uh, retirement investing and retirement accounts on hold. And what does that mean? That means, again, four to 10 years of your life that you could be investing, that you could be preparing for your future retirement that’s gone. Um, and even some folks put their life on hold, big major life decisions on hold. They’re like, oh, I don’t wanna have a baby or I don’t wanna get married or I don’t wanna, whatever the big milestone is in their life. So those are some things to keep in mind. That’s why we ask in the book, if graduate school is right for you and also when is the right time? Because people ask all the time like, when is the right time to go? Should I go after undergrad? Should I take a gap year or two? Should I get some work experience? And really it’s you and your circumstances and you get to decide when is the right time for you. There is no right or wrong time, even if you go back 10 years later. So it is important to calculate these costs to think about like how much is it gonna cost you? Not just if you think about taking on student debt or not just if you think about your income loss, but just thinking about the timing and other life factors and whether or not you’re willing to make that sacrifice for the end goal in sight, which might be a PhD and then whatever other career opportunities can come with a PhD.

Emily (36:03): I wanna underline everything you just said, especially about the investing time lost. Amazing. But let’s not forget about student loans either. If you have student loans from your undergraduate degree and they’re unsubsidized, they’re gonna continue accumulating interest. And as you said, if you put off, uh, if you are able to defer them, which is wonderful for six or 10 years or however long it is, it’s gonna be, you know, the interest will capitalize and the balance will be that much higher on the other side.

Miroslava (36:26): Those years I was thinking, I was thinking about that my twenties, right? ’cause I went straight through, uh, and I was thinking about how much it your life is sort of on hold. I guess for me personally, I kind of felt like I couldn’t make those decisions that Yvette was referring to in terms of a family this or that. ’cause I was so focused on my work and it was really hard for me coming from a family. Um, the questions came up, when are you gonna get a real job? When are you gonna get married? You know, or somebody to take care of you, quote unquote. And I thought like, oh my goodness. And you just have to tell them I’m one, at one point I just said, I’m gonna be in school for the rest of my life and get used to it, you know? And so that, I don’t know if that settled things or not, but um, yeah, I mean you don’t realize these things later I realized, oh, I didn’t invest. I could have been investing. I mean this is for myself, you know, coming from immigrant family and, and um, not having any of this information, uh, later on. But I will say like being on the other side now for all these years, it’s the best decision I could have made.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (37:15): This has been just, um, the most wonderful conversation. I thank you so much for agreeing to come on the podcast and telling us about the book and diving deeper into some of these financial aspects. It’s been so wonderful to talk with you. So I want to pose to each of you the question that I ask all of my guests at the end of interviews, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD that could be a prospective graduate student or a current graduate student, or however you wanna interpret that. And it could be something that we’ve already touched on in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Miroslava (37:43): This is based on some of the the, my own experiences, but I think it’s important when you start thinking about graduate schools, I think it’s important to come with your finances in order to the most, to the best of your ability that it’s important not to come with tons of debt or financial obligations. I think I just think about the, this is sort of like, I don’t wanna say the the, so it is the femtor in me, right? To say not to um, to come and risk putting excessive stress on yourself, on your career in grad school. Just thinking about like you have all these mounting bills, these grad, these undergrad, right? Uh, not only loans, but maybe perhaps car loans or your, you are supporting your family that you decide to, you know, come to graduate school because you, you did get a package and then that will, you know, offset you for a while. Um, I think that it’s really hard to be able to focus on your work if you have all those financial burdens. You know, we can’t, many of us can’t sleep at night when we are just thinking about where’s our, our next paycheck or am I gonna be able to do these things? Um, so you need to think about, you know, because there’ll be so many other hidden costs in graduate school. And so I’ve seen some of my students come with lots of stress, you know, financial stress and I’m always with my mouth jaws my jaw open. Like, oh my goodness, how are you doing it? So that’s one thing I would say, if possible, try to get your finances in some kind of working order or get a system to help you, um, get to your goals.

Yvette (39:01): Yeah, I mean, I’ll echo what Miros just said. I do think it’s important that this starts before you even accept an offer. So create a budget before you accept an offer and make sure you can actually make ends meet with that offer. Um, if it’s possible. Again, I know everybody’s circumstances are different, but if it’s possible, minimize debt of any kind. Um, especially, I mean all all debt I’m not a fan of, but especially when it’s more than federal debt, when it’s personal loans, when it’s credit card debt, like to try to avoid that as much as possible. And more importantly like learn about financial literacy, learn about personal finance. I put that on hold throughout my graduate school journey. I didn’t start learning until after I got my PhD and it’s a shame. I wish I would’ve just done that homework on the side because it would’ve saved me, like literally saved me a lot of money. <laugh>, Um, explore other funding or income opportunities. Some of us already learned those skills because we have to. Um, but if you haven’t quite learned that skill, you know, explore what, whether that might be tutoring, mentoring, teaching, editing, you name it, you have a lot of skills that you can use to help you make ends meet. Um, and also maximize your institutional access and resources because at one point you’re not gonna have access to that really great healthcare or to that free or low cost therapy or to those LinkedIn learning courses. At one point you’re gonna have to be the one to pay for it. So ask around, find out what those benefits are and and maximize them. And then of course, I cannot say this because I wish that older me would’ve taught younger me how to do this, which is like getting, getting into the habit of investing earlier on. Um, even if it’s something as small as, I don’t know, $25 a month, if that’s all that you can do, just getting into the habit of investing will help you in the long run. Even if it doesn’t feel like it’s gonna make a big dent, that habit will make it a lot less burdensome, a lot less scary for you to then increase that amount in the future so that you can set yourself up for success. I wish I would’ve had that. Now I have to work even harder because I started out a little later.

Miroslava (41:15): I think most of us didn’t even know that was something in my family I grew up with, um, hoarders in terms of money, immigrant, you know, put it underneath the, the mattress and save every penny. And I’m sort of grateful I didn’t go the opposite way. We sometimes we go opposite what we learn and so I’m very much a penny pincher. Um, but you know, it doesn’t grow if you leave it underneath your mattress. So, um, anyways, so we just wanna play catch up, but we try to then share that information with others to help them sort of correct some mistakes that we made.

Emily (41:46): Well, we don’t have enough time for me to praise every single piece of advice that you two just gave because that was absolutely fantastic. So I’ll just say to the listener, if you need to, you know, rerun the rerun the last couple of minutes, listen to it over and over again because there was so much gold in just those quick responses. Um, and I certainly hope the listeners will take it to heart. So once again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Um, it’s been absolutely great to have you. And the book again is, Is Grad School For Me? Demystifying the Application Process for First-Gen BIPOC students. Will you say the website again where they can get it?

Yvette (42:14): Yes, that’s isgradschoolforme.com.

Emily (42:17): Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Yvette (42:19): Thank you

Miroslava (42:20): This was really fun.

Outtro

Emily (42:30): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.