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How This Grad Student Shifted Her Student Loan Strategy through the Pandemic

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In this episode, Emily interviews Lexi Jones, a 4th-year PhD student in the Massachusetts Institute of Technology – Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution Joint Program in Oceanography/Applied Ocean Science and Engineering. Prior to Lexi entering graduate school in summer 2019, she resolved to pay down her undergraduate student loan debt first and foremost. However, the confluence of learning more about personal finance, the passage of the Graduate Student Savings Act, and the student loan interest and payment pause starting in March 2020 caused her to adjust her strategy. Instead of paying down her student loans, Lexi has maxed out her IRA for the last few years, built a 4-month emergency fund, paid back debt to her parents, and started saving for a wedding. Lexi and Emily also discuss how Lexi is dealing with the frequent student loan policy changes announced through fall 2022.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

S14E5 Image: How This Grad Student Shifted Her Student Loan Strategy through the Pandemic

Teaser

00:00 Lexi: I will say that that happening was part of the reason I started educating myself about it. And I had remembered you did that podcast explaining this change. And yeah, so that all kind of coincided with when I started investing into that IRA, which I would not have been able to the previous year. So, it’s just been a confluence of a lot of different things happening and a lot of policy changes that have directly impacted me at least.

Introduction

00:33 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 5, and today my guest is Lexi Jones, a 4th-year PhD student in the Massachusetts Institute of Technology – Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution Joint Program in Oceanography/Applied Ocean Science and Engineering. Prior to Lexi entering graduate school in summer 2019, she resolved to pay down her undergraduate student loan debt first and foremost. However, the confluence of learning more about personal finance, the passage of the Graduate Student Savings Act, and the student loan interest and payment pause starting in March 2020 caused her to adjust her strategy. Instead of paying down her student loans, Lexi has maxed out her IRA for the last few years, built a 4-month emergency fund, paid back debt to her parents, and started saving for a wedding. Lexi and I also discuss how Lexi is dealing with the frequent student loan policy changes announced through fall 2022.

01:56 Emily: It’s not too late to ask your grad school, postdoc office, grad student association, department, etc. to sponsor my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!)! It’s really fast and easy to set up enrollment, and I continue to enroll new groups until very close to the end of tax season. I have four versions of the workshop available this year, covering postbacs, grad students, and postdocs and also both citizens/residents and nonresidents. This is a big expansion over who I’ve served in previous years, and I’m really excited for it. The workshop is asynchronous, so you can go through it at any point between now and Tax Day, and I also have a mechanism for answering questions if the core material doesn’t quite connect all the dots for you. Please send an email requesting sponsorship for this workshop to the potential host and include a link to pfforphds.com/tax-workshops/. I offer a bulk purchase discount to my university clients, and they have a choice between fully sponsoring the workshop or subsidizing the cost for the participants. Thank you in advance for recommending this content! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s14e5/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Lexi Jones.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:27 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Lexi Jones. She is a fourth-year PhD student at MIT. We are going to discuss the financial mindset shifts and also shifts in goals that she’s had since she started graduate school. So Lexi, I’m so glad that you volunteered to be on the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on. And will you please introduce yourself to the listeners?

03:47 Lexi: Yeah, thanks for having me! I am Lexi Jones, as you said. I am a fourth-year graduate student, PhD student at MIT. I’m studying oceanography, so I’m in the MIT-WHOI Joint Program, it’s called but I’m based in the Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Sciences Department at MIT.

Financial Mindset at the Start of Grad School

04:08 Emily: Okay, thank you so much. So, let’s kind of take it back to when you started graduate school. What was your financial mindset at that time? What goals did you set for yourself? What were you thinking?

04:20 Lexi: Yeah, so, I guess it’s relevant to say I came out of undergrad with some student debt. I did have a good scholarship, but it wasn’t a full ride, so I had both federal debt and I also had debt that I owed my parents. So the combination of those two, I had $41,000 in debt. And so, when I started graduate school, I did take one year off in between undergrad and grad, but I worked as a research assistant where I did not make a lot of money <laugh>. So, it was the most money I’d ever made. And I had come into graduate school really thinking that my number one priority would be to pay off those student loans.

05:07 Emily: Okay. Let’s put some years on this. So, what year did you graduate from undergrad?

05:12 Lexi: I graduated from undergrad in 2018 in the summer.

05:15 Emily: Okay. So, you started grad school fall 2019?

05:19 Lexi: Summer 2019.

Federal Student Loan and Parental Debt

05:20 Emily: Okay. And what was the nature of your federal student loan debt, and then what was the nature of the debt that your parents had?

05:30 Lexi: So, my federal student loan debt, that was all mostly from tuition. It was like around $27,000. And then my parents basically kind of kept tabs of how much they helped me out with things like housing mostly and groceries. And I also paid for some of that myself throughout. And that was at around $13,700. And so that was kind of just, you know, them keeping tabs that, that wasn’t growing interest or anything, but it was, you know, something I was going to have to pay back.

06:03 Emily: Okay. This is a similar situation to like what I was in when I came out of undergrad. My parents sort of sprung on me that they expected me to pay them back, to some degree, for some of their expenses that occurred during my college education. So, it wasn’t like there was a specific loan that they had that I was like then paying. It was just like this sort of overhanging <laugh> amount of money that I was supposed to pay them back. Did you and your parents have like a timeline or like payment amounts or anything kind of formal about this?

06:37 Lexi: Well, I mean, I will say that I was very aware that I was going to have to pay them back. They did not spring it on me. I did actually owe them $23,000, but my graduation gift was they docked off $10K of what I owed them. And I did know I would have to pay it back because they did remortgage their house. Like they took some really big financial steps to help me in college. We’re not very wealthy. I’m from a very blue collar, small town. And so, there wasn’t exactly a timeline, but the expectation was as soon as I started making my own income that I would start working on that. And I do think that they had mentioned to me, I’m trying to think back, but I think their real expectation was once I finished graduate school and started making a quote unquote real income that I was supposed to pay them back.

07:34 Emily: Okay. That’s great. And then your federal student loan debt, was that subsidized, unsubsidized, or a combination?

07:40 Lexi: A combination.

Income-Based Loan Repayment

07:41 Emily: Okay. Great. Since we will be talking about student loans further, I just wanted to get all those like specifics out there. Okay. So, you’re coming into graduate school and you have a degree of concern about this student loan debt. During that year when you worked as a research assistant, you must have gone back into repayment, is that right?

07:57 Lexi: I did, yeah.

07:58 Emily: Okay.

07:58 Lexi: Yeah, so I was looking back at my <laugh> my finances and like 2018, I did start paying it because I was so stressed, even though I was making no money at the end of 2018. So, I went into repayment for around I guess six months I think. Right? Because you have about six months of a timeline to not pay. And then I started graduate school in June, so it wasn’t too long that I was required to pay.

08:26 Emily: And were you on the standard plan at that time?

08:29 Lexi: I was on an income-based repayment plan. I was very nervous to do anything else because I was making so little money.

08:38 Emily: Yeah, totally. And were you eligible for PSLF?

08:44 Lexi: No, I was not.

Initial #1 Priority: Unsubsidized Federal Loans

08:46 Emily: Okay. Okay, great. So, you’re coming into graduate school. We have a really clear picture of the student loans. And so why did you, I guess what was your plan at the beginning of graduate school? Did you want to keep repaying down? Was it your own debt? Was it your parents’ debt? What were you planning on?

09:02 Lexi: At the start of graduate school, I was ignoring my parents’ debt. In my head, you know, that was not gaining interest. They didn’t have strong expectations until after graduate school as we talked about. So, my number one priority was the unsubsidized federal loans. Even though once I started graduate school, I wasn’t required to make payments. But I was so tunnel-visioned on needing to pay that down as soon as possible.

09:31 Emily: Interesting. Okay. But I understand that you have not carried this plan through to the present, so at some point you changed your mind. How did that happen?

09:41 Lexi: Yeah, I think that my parents helped me a lot to save money growing up. It was always save for college though. I don’t really feel like I was taught a lot of skills outside of just saving for college. And I definitely started graduate school with, again, the tunnel vision of paying off that college debt. So, I think I started to get interested in personal finance. I started listening to your podcast and just kind of starting to read about what other people have done and strategies for debt versus kind of building a financial base. I will say on like a personal note, I had one of my best friends in college was diagnosed with stage four cancer in undergrad. So in my head, you know, that was like the worst-case scenario, some financial situation that could happen to me. And I was very scared that I didn’t have any safety net or things like that. And so, I was trying to figure out how do I balance building up that kind of financial base versus paying off the loans.

10:50 Emily: Wow. I am sorry for your friend and also that you witnessed that experience. I definitely fell into the mistaken thought pattern of like young person invulnerability, like, why would you need an emergency fund? I’m just going to start investing and, you know, pay my debt and so forth. So like you unfortunately, but it’s a good conclusion to come to, had a different like perspective on that. Okay. So, you’re shifting into thinking that you need to build up some savings prior to seriously addressing the student loan debt. Were there any other goals that you ended up setting for yourself during graduate school? And I guess actually let’s, let’s talk for a moment about what, what happened with the student loan debt because, you know, whatever, eight months into your first year of graduate school, we entered the administrative forbearance for the federal student loans. And so not only, so effectively those unsubsidized loans became subsidized, right? And so you still didn’t have to make payments. Now you’re not concerned about the interest rate. How much did that shift play into you changing kind of your focus?

Administrative Forbearance

11:54 Lexi: Yeah, so I think, you know, 2019, the start of graduate school I started, I was paying my student loans and also starting to build up that safety net just mostly out of fear of the unknown. And then 2020 definitely changed everything for me. I do go to school at MIT, so we’re in a very high cost-of-living area. And when the pandemic hit, I decided to move back with my long-term partner who lives in Philly. So, just as my like base expenses, my rent cut in half when I moved back to Philly. And then what do we know, I was in Philly for over a year and a half <laugh>. So, my core expenses definitely decreased and my salary stayed the same because luckily I was in a secure position as a PhD student.

12:49 Lexi: The other thing, like you said, our student loans became frozen. And then I think also at that time I was starting to hear whispers, maybe not whispers, but the campaign ideas of student loan forgiveness. So, that was 2020 was when Joe Biden was running for president and that was one of the big kind of promises. And so, I really started to question what my strategy was at that point. And I think I was looking back at my spreadsheets and stuff and around April, 2020 was when I completely stopped putting money into the federal student loans.

13:28 Emily: And how much were you putting in a regular amount up until then? You were then able to divert how much money was that?

13:34 Lexi: Yeah, up until then I was putting in a hundred a week. And at that point when I stopped, I had put in over $6,000 and it really only took off a little bit under $5,000, like with the interest growing. So, I just felt like it was like sinking my money every extra penny I had into this student loan.

Shift from Paying Off Loans to Investing in an IRA

13:58 Emily: Okay. So, now we’re into the pandemic and as we’re recording this, this is November, 2022, so we are still in the administrative forbearance. Maybe we’ll talk in a few more minutes later on about sort of current student loans, what’s going on. But let’s talk more about then what you decided to do with your finances after no longer contributing to your student loan balance. Did you save? Did you invest? What happened?

14:23 Lexi: Yeah, so at that point I had a lot of extra money between lower rent costs and then I wasn’t going out, I wasn’t traveling. And then also the stimulus checks. So, all of that combined, I just had a lot of extra income that I originally had, which is a very privileged position obviously to be in during the pandemic. I, at that point, became interested in investing in an IRA. I was pretty uncomfortable with the idea of investing <laugh> up until 2020. And after I think just reading a lot and, and just learning about really what happens to that money, I decided it was the best thing for me to do at this point. Especially because the earlier you start investing for retirement, the more power that money has later on. So it just to me made sense to build that financial base and, you know, my partner was in a normal industry job with a 401(k) and I was just feeling like I needed to kind of build that up now.

15:36 Emily: I want to note, I think it’s kind of interesting that like I’m sure this experience wouldn’t have been unique to you during the pandemic, but I wonder if it sort of moved you out of like a student bubble? Like moving away from campus, living with your partner, witnessing your partner’s real job, real benefits and so forth. Like, did that give you a different, like less studenty mindset around your finances?

15:58 Lexi: I think so. And also, just the freezing, the combination of all the things I mentioned, kind of, there were so many signs pointing towards stop putting all of your energy into these student loans because you have a chance to really like build for your future. I think the other big thing I didn’t mention, like after putting all of that money into the IRA, I also decided to build up not only my safety net, but also pay my parents back because of this idea of if they were going to forgive student loans, why would I put money into it when it actually could be forgiven? In the beginning they were saying, you know, could be $50,000 forgiven or $20,000 forgiven. In that case I would really be sinking my money into nothing <laugh>.

16:45 Emily: Absolutely. This is the same, outside of this sort of like unique pandemic slash possibility of loan cancellation time period, this is the same mindset that anyone who’s on an income-driven repayment plan leading towards forgiveness needs to apply. You should, if you’re really committed to your income-driven repayment plan, maybe that’s in combination with public service loan forgiveness, you should never make more than the minimum payment because it’s literally futile. Everything will be forgiven at the end of that process. And so, it doesn’t matter whether you have, you know, made extra payments or not. So yeah, it’s hard to wrap your mind around because in the regular world of other types of debt, this is not at all how things work, but student loans are really their own beast that have to be thought about differently than other types of debt that we have.

17:32 Lexi: Yeah, and it really took all of those things for me to get to this point to really like not worry so much about it. Because it just always was such a heavy weight on my head and I think the possibility of forgiveness and them freezing just kind of released that burden. So it was definitely a very, like a combination of a lot of unique circumstances.

Commercial

17:56 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for infor mation tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my tax resources, many of which I have updated for tax year 2022. On that page you will find free podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. The absolute most comprehensive and highest quality resources, however, are my asynchronous tax workshops. I’m offering four tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022, one each for grad students who are U.S. citizens or residents, postdocs who are U.S. citizens or residents, postbacs who are U.S. citizens or residents, and grad students and postdocs who are nonresidents. Those tax return preparation workshops are in addition to my estimated tax workshop for grad student, postdoc, and postbac fellows who are U.S. citizens or residents.

19:12 Emily: My preferred method for enrolling you in one of these workshops is to find a sponsor at your university or institute. Typically, that sponsor is a graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, postdoc association, or an individual school or department. I would very much appreciate you recommending one or more of these workshops to a potential sponsor. If that doesn’t work out, I do sell these workshops to individuals, but I think it’s always worth trying to get it into your hands for free or a subsidized cost. Again, you can find all of these free and paid resources, including a page you can send to a potential workshop sponsor, linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

IRA Investment and Parental Debt Repayment

19:59 Emily: Okay, so let’s catch us up to like the present. Like have you continued with the IRA investing? How are your savings looking now? How do you feel about that?

20:07 Lexi: Yeah, so since 2020 I’ve maxed out my IRA every year. So, that’s kind of a non-negotiable for me. I just put in $500 a month and don’t think about it. I will say, I do have a higher stipend than a lot of other graduate students do. But yeah, that is very important to me now and I’m really happy with that <laugh>. During the pandemic, actually last August, I completely paid back my parents. So, that was an amazing feeling and felt so much better than putting my money into the government student loans just because I knew it would make such a bigger impact for them, and I wouldn’t have to worry about it anymore. As we know, like they’re still frozen right now, so I don’t know if I would’ve fully continued to commit to that as much if they had unfroze, but as of right now I still haven’t put anything else into my federal student loans.

21:20 Emily: And you mentioned earlier that you moved to Philadelphia for a year and a half, so I’m wondering how your budget looks right now. Like are you still living with your partner but now you’re back in Boston? Or like how are your, as your expenses have, I’m presuming increased as we’re, you know, moving through and beyond the pandemic, yeah, how have you set up your budget to still support these financial goals?

21:42 Lexi: Yeah, so I lived in Philadelphia until last July. So last July I kind of, I finished saving, paid off my parents. I built up a four-month emergency fund, my safety net. I was continuing to max out my IRA, and then I moved back to Boston. And so, now my rent is around $1050 every month just for me. So my partner and I split equally. So, my rent has doubled, but my income has also increased a little bit. At MIT we are unionized now, so I think that our salary will be pretty stable. And so, because my safety net is already built up now and my parental debt is paid off, now I have been putting money into planning for a wedding actually. So, the money that would be going toward my student loans, I’m instead saving for a wedding now.

22:55 Emily: That’s great. It’s like you caught up in all these areas, right? The emergency fund, the debt to your parents, the student loans still being on pause, and you’re on track with your IRA goals, and now you get to add in a wonderful new financial goal to the mix. So, congratulations on that upcoming life event! You mentioned earlier that, you know, near the beginning of graduate school you started listening to my podcast, but I’m wondering if you had any other recommendations for our listeners of other people or sources you listened to that kind of helped you with these mindset shifts?

Podcast Recommendations

23:27 Lexi: Yeah, I think that your podcast was really helpful for me for getting started just because it’s such a unique situation. All of the recommendations you hear are like, max out your 401(k) if you can. And it’s like, okay, well what if I don’t have a 401(k)? What if I have like just a weird stipend, a weird fellowship, and then don’t have retirement benefits, but I do have health insurance. It’s just a weird situation to be in. So, I feel like not only like with help paying taxes and how to do fellowship versus stipend, your podcast really helped me get started thinking about what should I prioritize specifically as a PhD student. And then I’m starting to think of, okay, what will happen beyond being a PhD student? How can I properly manage my money at that point when I have a quote unquote more normal job? So, I love podcasts. I like listening to the Financial Feminist, if you’ve heard of that one. I think Ramit Sethi has some really good podcasts, more about the psychology around money and just like getting your head out of like, this is this terrible thing I have to pay off the government for the rest of my life. I think just working through some of your psychology, especially if you didn’t grow up with a lot of money or in weird circumstances, I think that podcast is really great as well.

24:57 Emily: Yeah, thanks for those recommendations. The Financial Feminist, is that Tori Dunlap?

25:01 Lexi: Yes.

25:01 Emily: Okay. Yes. So the other part of her brand I guess is Her First 100K. Yeah, I do listen to Ramit’s podcast. It’s different from his other work. Like it’s very different from his book for example, but I like that they complement one another. So, thank you so much for those recommendations.

Shifting Student Loan Policy

25:19 Emily: As I said earlier, we are here in November, 2022 and just, I think it was last week we found out that the proposed student loan cancellation of 10 or $20,000 has been blocked and will not immediately be going forward. And we don’t really know a lot. I’ve actually been wondering how this is not being better covered by mainstream news sources <laugh>, because it seems like massive news just the way the announcement of the cancellation was. So, okay, all we know right now is that it’s blocked for the moment. We don’t know how this is going to resolve. We also don’t know whether the administrative forbearance will be extended again. One of the sources that I listen to, Student Loan Planner, thinks that it will be until we get some clarity on all of this. So, you as a borrower stuck in the middle of all this, what are you thinking and what are you feeling, and what are you hoping about all of this?

26:13 Lexi: Yeah, it’s definitely been a rollercoaster. I mean I thought it was a done deal when I submitted my name to get $10,000 forgiven. Because I definitely qualify. I think anyone in grad school with federal student loans will qualify. And so, I mean what we’re looking at now is I’m at $22,400 of federal student loans, still a mix of subsidized and unsubsidized. If that were to get $10,000 taken off, I think $12,000 is almost half, an incredibly more reasonable amount for me to pay off. And so, I think if the forgiveness goes forward, the way I kind of view that is I will likely get that amount of a pay raise at my next job at least, and can easily pay that off after graduate school. If it doesn’t get forgiven, if it stays frozen, I’m not going to put any money into it. If it does become unfrozen and post-wedding, I may start putting some extra cash into those unsubsidized loans. So, there are a lot of different possibilities. I think, say, none of it gets forgiven but it stays frozen until I finish graduate school, at that point I might you know, refinance and pay it down at a lower interest rate. So, there are a lot of possibilities.

27:46 Emily: Yeah, a lot of different paths that things could take going forward for you. And I actually don’t know this question, but I assume it would be the case, like let’s say that you did get $10,000 worth of cancellation. Can you selectively say that you want that to be your unsubsidized loans?

28:05 Lexi: I have been wondering the same thing, which is so frustrating, like why don’t we know the answers to these questions? But yeah, I really don’t know if it’ll be subsidized, unsubsidized, the lowest interest rate, the highest interest rate. I just really haven’t been able to plan exact numbers for any of that.

28:24 Emily: Yeah, I really have not heard that discussed at all. And it is probably because we really haven’t gotten close enough to the actual cancellation happening for it to have been dealt with by the servicers. As you said, there was an application open for like a few weeks I think, and now it’s been shut down again. Yeah, well I certainly hope that if the cancellation goes through that the borrowers are able to selectively say, you know, this is the loan I want reduced or paid off completely, et cetera. Because of course having those unsubsidized loans wiped out for you would be the most helpful thing in the short-term. And again, there are still lots of other things that could happen, like you were just laid out some possibilities. But the other one on the table is the new income-driven repayment plan that again, was proposed and we don’t know what the final terms will be for that.

29:08 Emily: But it could be that, you know, given that your loans were from your undergraduate degree, that once you are back in repayment after graduate school, you may have a very low repayment that you’re looking at. And so, it might or may not make sense to refinance and you’ll have to, you know, tackle that question when you get to that point. But I agree with you that it would be great if it was only $12K, but even at, you know, $23K ish, I think this is going to be fairly easy to handle on whatever your post-PhD salary is because it is, you know, it’s less than even your graduate student salary right now, one year’s annual salary. So, I hope that’ll be manageable for you. But of course it would be lovely if much of it was wiped out.

29:46 Emily: But again, we’re just waiting and seeing and maybe there’ll be more updates by the time this is published, or maybe we’ll still be waiting and seeing. But it sounds like for you, you have your goals clear. You’re going to keep going with the IRA, you’re going to get through the wedding and the associated expenses, and then you’ll revisit once we know the situation on the ground at that time. Graduate students are in a way, I guess I could say fortunate, just in that if you’re in graduate school, you know, you’re not going to go back into repayment if it’s federal student loans. Whatever happens, you don’t have to make payments while you’re still in deferment, so you have time to kind of figure out what the best course is.

30:20 Lexi: Exactly. Yeah, and I think that’s where, again, another very unique situation that we’re in as a PhD student that, you know, other financial advice is about debt that’s accruing interest. And if you’re in this weird position where your debt’s not accruing interest, you kind of need specific advice for that situation. And I think that’s hard to come by. So thank you for kind of going through all these very nuanced situations.

Playing the Waiting Game

30:47 Emily: Yeah, I will do what I can. I’ve been waiting and seeing maybe by the time this is out, I’ll have done something for the podcast feed, but I’ve been waiting and seeing how things go before making any kind of recommendations to like the grad student audience because again, we don’t know about the end of the administrative forbearance, we don’t know about the cancellation, we don’t know about the IDR plan. It’s just like everything’s up in the air right now. I have contacted again, this brand that I follow, Student Loan Planner, and they’ve agreed to come back on the podcast. They did once before to give some recommendations. But again, we’re going to wait on that until we know what this IDR plan looks like. So, it’s all just a waiting game, and it must be heart-wrenching for you to feel as you said that it was a done deal, that you were going to get this $10K in cancellation and have the rug kind of pulled out from under you on that. So, I am sorry about that.

31:37 Lexi: It’s okay. It honestly did feel too good to be true and I guess maybe it was <laugh>. We’ll see. But yeah, I think, like you said, because I’ve built a financial base, I really do feel prepared either way to take on the debt. Of course, it would be nice for anyone to be $10,000 less in debt. So yes, I hope for everyone that still has debt that it does go through.

32:04 Emily: Yeah, and that’s, I mean, that is the purpose of the administrative forbearance, right? Like there was a lot of uncertainty during the pandemic of course, you know people lost jobs, lost income and so forth. And pausing it for everyone was a quick solution to provide a great deal of relief for people not in graduate school who actually had their payments going on. So, it certainly served a purpose, but we’ll see when it actually ends and whether people are going to start defaulting when they go back into repayment and it could be a mess. We don’t know, again.

Saving for Retirement

32:32 Emily: Well, Lexi, is there anything else that you would like to add about your financial journey and these mindset shifts that you’ve had during graduate school?

32:39 Lexi: Yeah, I guess I would just add that, I think saving for retirement feels like a very far off weird thing to be doing. I’m 26 years old, but the stock market has performed on average at 10% growth. And I think most federal student loans are at most like 4.5% growing interest. So, I think if you have a math brain, which you might as a PhD student, it really does make sense if you have the opportunity to start saving for retirement because I mean even like, just saving now all of the growth that you’ll get on that money is going to be so much more than the interest you’re growing on your student loans. Just something to keep in mind, and that really helped me kind of rationalize this, to me, what felt like an uncomfortable decision.

33:37 Emily: I’m also reflecting that you started graduate school at an interesting time because at the moment you started, if you were on fellowship, I don’t know if you were, but anybody who was on fellowship wouldn’t have been able to contribute to an IRA from that particular source of income, but that changed just at the beginning of 2020. So, it’s just interesting that you were thinking about these things and there was all this news at the time about, you know, the opening up of this benefit to graduate students on fellowship.

34:02 Lexi: I will say that that happening was part of the reason I started educating myself about it. And I had remembered you did that podcast explaining this change. And yes, so that all kind of coincided with when I started investing into that IRA, which I would not have been able to the previous year. So, it’s just been a confluence of a lot of different things happening and a lot of policy changes that have directly impacted me at least.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

34:31 Emily: Yeah, that’s a good summation of like this episode, just like dealing with the policy changes and sort of the winds of change buffeting you around as a graduate student. Lexi, thank you so much for this interview! I’m really happy to hear about how, you know, there’s been a lot of positive changes that have happened even through the difficult period of the pandemic. So, thank you so much for sharing those mindset shifts with us. The question that I ask all of my guests at the end of our interviews is, would you please share your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve already touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

35:06 Lexi: Yeah, I mean <laugh> I would just double down on if you can, save for retirement, I think it’s going to be a huge impact for your future. And then also, I think a safety net is really important. Like I said, you never know what could happen even if you’re young. There are a lot of unknowns out there. Even if you feel very secure as I do in my position right now, anything could happen. So, just to have that financial security, I think helps me at least sleep at night.

35:41 Emily: Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

35:41 Lexi: That would be my advice. <Laugh>

35:44 Emily: I will put into the show notes, I have a, I call it like a challenge inside the Personal Finance for PhD’s community, which is a seven-step process for opening your first IRA. So, if any listeners are excited or curious about how to do that and you want a little bit of support from me, you can join that community and take that challenge. Again, we’ll link it in the show notes. And this, I’m imagining when this podcast is being released is a really good time to open a 2022 IRA because you can still open and contribute to one through tax day of the following year. So until, I’m assuming it’s April 15th, unless there’s a holiday, April 15th, 2023, you’ll be able to open and contribute to a 2022 IRA. So, that’s always a great idea. Well Lexi, thank you so much again for volunteering, and it’s been great to speak with you today!

36:27 Lexi: Yeah, thank you so much for having me on and thanks again for having this podcast! It’s amazing.

36:32 Emily: You’re welcome.

Outtro

36:38 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Grad Student Deferred Her Acceptance to Work on Her Finances

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In this episode, Emily interviews Brittany Trinh, a PhD student in chemistry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Brittany originally applied to grad school in fall 2018, but she elected to defer her acceptance for two years in favor of taking a job. Brittany shares how she developed her finances, side business, and professional life in the 2.5 years she worked prior to matriculating. She started graduate school in fall 2021 in a much stronger financial position—and more confident in herself—than she would have in fall 2019, even though it was a bit of a rough transition. At the end of the interview, Brittany explains for whom deferment of grad school acceptance is a good option.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

PF for PhDs S14E4 Image: This Grad Student Deferred Her Acceptance to Work on Her Finances

Teaser

00:00 Brittany: I think the biggest thing was just, one, knowing how the PhD stipend is, and just the whole grad school process. I was just really afraid about like how like setting up my like financial future when like the stipend makes it kind of difficult to do that, savings and things. Like it is possible. But just at that time, I knew that like with my job, I could do that a lot faster than like going to grad school right away. And we know that like with time and investing, like time is like the most valuable thing.

Introduction

00:41 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 4, and today my guest is Brittany Trinh, a PhD student in chemistry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Brittany originally applied to grad school in fall 2018, but she elected to defer her acceptance for two years in favor of taking a job. Brittany shares how she developed her finances, side business, and professional life in the 2.5 years she worked prior to matriculating. As a result, she started graduate school in fall 2021 in a much stronger financial position—and more confident in herself—than she would have in fall 2019, even though it was a bit of a rough transition. At the end of the interview, Brittany shares from her perspective for whom deferment of grad school acceptance is a good option.

01:57 Emily: If you’re a prospective graduate student currently in the thick of admissions season, I encourage you to check out my asynchronous workshop, Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School. You can pick and choose which modules are most relevant to you now and over the coming months. For instance, if you’re staring at a cryptic funding offer letter, you might want to join “Interpret and Compare Offer Letters.” If you’re not sure if your stipend offer is really livable for a certain city, you might want to join “Stipends vs. Cost of Living.” If you know already that your top-choice program is offering a sub-par stipend, you might want to join “Negotiate Your Stipend and/or Benefits.” You can learn more about Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School and the various modules at PFforPhDs.com/setyourselfup/. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s14e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Brittany Trinh.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:06 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Brittany Trinh. She is a first-year graduate student at the University of Wisconsin Madison in chemistry. By the way, we are recording this in April, 2022, but I’m expecting to publish it in early 2023. So, for reference, you know, Brittany will now be a second-year graduate student at the time of publication, we expect. Okay, Brittany, thank you so much for joining me. Will you please introduce yourself further to the listener?

03:31 Brittany: Hi, yeah, my name is Brittany and I’m, like you said, currently a PhD student in chemistry at UW Madison and part of the Boydston group studying metal-free ring-opening metathesis polymerization. And before that, I was getting my BS chemistry at the University of Houston and then also working at a polymer company for about two and a half years before I became a grad student.

Timing of Grad School Application and Deferment

03:58 Emily: Excellent. And that is the subject of our interview today. So, Brittany applied for graduate school, got in, and decided not to go for a bit. So, we’re going to talk about that deferment process and why it happened and how it happened and how she used that time to better her finances and be in a stronger position when starting graduate school. So, I love this topic. Okay, so starting off, what was the timing of this? Like when did you apply for grad school? Were you also applying for jobs that same time? Just like walk us through the beginning of this process.

04:28 Brittany: Yeah, so I actually graduated a little bit later. So, in the fall of 2018 was my graduation semester, so that’s when I started applying for jobs and grad school at the same time. And then throughout that process, I actually only applied to one grad school, which was UW Madison because of like a fee waiver I got from a preview program. And simultaneously applying for a bunch of jobs and we all know how job searching goes.

04:59 Emily: Interesting. So, when you, because you were graduating like at that end of fall semester timing, were you already anticipating that you would have to have a job between, you know, let’s say January and August or whenever it was that you would matriculate if you had gone directly to graduate school?

05:16 Brittany: I think that I wanted to do something but I wasn’t expecting to honestly get into the graduate program because I did get the job offer by October, 2018. So, I had already like accepted the job offer before I even knew that I was getting into grad school.

Receiving an Acceptance Letter

05:38 Emily: Okay, great. So, when you got the acceptance to UW Madison, what were your thoughts at that time? Were you thinking that you wanted to enroll or were you already thinking by that point that deferring was going to be a good idea?

05:51 Brittany: So, this is actually a really funny story. I got my acceptance letter the same day that I came home from like my first day at work. And I was super surprised because I did not think I was going to get in. And so, of course I’m like kind of freaking out and thinking like, well, what do I do? You know? But ultimately I decided that it was better for me to just stay at my job because I literally just got started. And so, I wanted to see if there was an option for me to defer just for some time so I could get the work experience but then still pursue grad school later.

Role of Finances in Decision

06:27 Emily: And what role did finances play in that decision to defer?

06:33 Brittany: I think the biggest thing was just, one, knowing how the PhD stipend is and just the whole grad school process. I was just really afraid about like how like setting up my like financial future when like the stipend makes it kind of difficult to do that savings and things. Like it is possible. But just at that time, I knew that like with my job I could do that a lot faster than like going to grad school right away. And we know that like with time and investing, like time is like the most valuable thing. And then of course there were other some like emotional things related to that. Yeah, and I think the thing was that my job offer was really good and I just really could not turn it down. And that was why I ended up deferring my grad school enrollment.

07:32 Emily: Yeah, I think it definitely makes it easier to imagine what else you would be doing if you didn’t go directly to graduate school already being in that job, which is awesome. I’m wondering, did you have any particular financial concerns? Like I know generally things are hard, right? For grad students and finances, but I don’t know, were you like looking at like student loan debt that you wanted to pay down? Or were you like, “Oh, I have zero in savings and I really want a certain amount in savings.”? Like was there any specific element of your finances that was a top concern?

08:01 Brittany: Oh, yes. So, I am very fortunate that I did not have any like student loan or other like personal debt. But for me it was definitely zero savings. Because I obviously just graduated from school, and I had just like a little bit of savings from like summer research or things like that. But yeah, I really wanted to build up my emergency fund, my 401(k), and just kind of let it sit there while I’m in grad school and things like that. Those were like the main concerns.

Informing the Grad Program About Deferment

08:37 Emily: Okay. So, we’ve talked about like the decision to defer why you did it, what you were planning on doing with your time anyway. How is it actually like telling your program <laugh> that you got into that that was your plan, that you would like to exercise a deferment option? Like, I don’t know, like how did those conversations go?

08:55 Brittany: Yeah, so I don’t remember exactly like how I came up with the idea of deferring. But I think maybe I’ve seen it somewhere. So, I think I was just like searching the department’s website to find any reference in like the handbook or their FAQ or whatever about the deferral process. And so, I remember seeing this on their FAQ page saying that like, yes, it is possible because they’ve granted it to people before, you just have to like let them know and it’s up to two years. So, what I did was I waited until I went to the official visit weekend and I wanted to talk to the graduate program coordinator personally as opposed to like over e-mail. And it was actually a little bit awkward because it was at like a poster session when I approached her because the schedule is like pretty packed.

09:45 Brittany: But she had just finished chatting with another student and so when I came up to her, I introduced myself and explained to her my situation and I just said like, could you tell me more about the deferral process? Like I would love to come here, but like as of right now, I’ve just started my job and it’s only been like two months and I don’t really want to leave that yet. And in the end she was very kind and reassuring about it and she just told me it’s totally possible just like stay in contact with her and she would like follow-up with me and let me know what the steps were.

10:15 Emily: It’s actually like, I hadn’t thought about this before, but sort of thinking about it from the program director’s perspective, you’re going to be an even stronger candidate when you actually join the department in like a year or two or whatever having had that relevant work experience. So, it actually feels like they’re getting like a bargain or something, like, we’re going to get an even better grad student than like the one we accepted. Like that’s amazing. So, I can see how that would maybe be attractive. But something I hadn’t asked you yet is, when you were admitted to the program, were you admitted already like knowing who your advisor was? Or was that a process that would maybe happen during like your first year?

10:52 Brittany: Yeah, so when I was admitted, we don’t know who our advisors are yet. It’s just like you’re just generally admitted, and then once you enroll whatever semester, that’s when you go through like the whole rotation process and stuff. So, that wasn’t a concern at that point.

What About Funding?

11:07 Emily: Yeah, I can imagine if, you know, for anyone listening to this who’s maybe going to consider this, if you’re admitted directly with an advisor, that’s the way I was admitted to graduate school, then it’s like two levels, like you have to make this okay with the department level, their program level, and also with your advisor. And the other like sort of wrinkle in there is like, what about your funding? So, what was your funding situation and did the deferment matter at all in like, you know, was your funding automatically going to come again? Or did you have to like apply again? Or how did that work?

11:36 Brittany: Yeah, so I think when I was accepted, they offered me full funding as a student and then they also gave me an additional fellowship which was a surprise to me, but when I followed up with her about deferring and such, I just asked her what the situation was like. Because I would understand if they decided to rescind the additional fellowship which I think was like an additional $4,000 or $5,000 just for the first year because I deferred, but actually she said, “No, your funding will [I guess] transfer.” And I was really surprised. And so I think it, it just is a matter of just asking very directly. Like it was a little uncomfortable for me to be so forward about it because I didn’t want to seem like, you know, I’m just only concerned about money, but it was something that they offered me and I just wanted to see if that was still available to me.

12:36 Emily: Yeah, well that’s great. I mean, it sounds like this person was like very receptive to the process. I mean, even them having it on their website is a good indication that yeah, this is something there that happens from time to time, and they can handle it. And especially like you were saying, just being admitted generally to the program I think makes the whole process easier since you’re not negotiating with like a certain person with a certain number of spots that are available or whatever the case might be.

Finances During Gap Years

12:57 Emily: Okay. So, let’s move beyond like the decision to defer and talk about what you did with your time about two and a half years, you said, between when you started your job and when you ultimately entered graduate school. So, we talked earlier about like the financial reasons for why to pursue this job instead. What actually ended up happening during that period of time with your finances?

13:18 Brittany: Yeah, so during that time while I was working, I was able to save over like $60K in my 401(k). And so, I’m like really proud of that, and a lot more like for emergency funds, my future house, as long as like PhD expenses because I know that like moving would be expensive and like school fees and such. So, I wanted to have like an additional fund for that that I could tap into in case I needed it. The other thing was I also just learned a lot more about my own financial habits and values and such. And so, all of those were like really good to know before coming to grad school just in terms of like spending and how you save and such. And then of course the last thing was like, I started my business, which was really a fun learning experience.

14:12 Emily: Yeah, let’s put a pin in the business for just a second. I definitely want to talk about that further. But I just want to like congratulate you because it sounds like you made great use of the time that you’re working to like build up 401(k) balance and the savings and all that. And just like hearing all that, I’m just so happy for you like starting graduate school in such a strong financial position. You’re not precarious in the same way many other graduate students are. Especially having those like investments in place because, I mean, maybe you’re still adding to them, but even if you weren’t able to add your investments at all during graduate school, like I mean five years or more in graduate school, like that money is going to grow. I mean, we’re like assuming the market behaves like sort of average over a long period of time, but it’s going to grow like a lot, like at least 50%, maybe even, you know, closer to doubling during just that period of time that you’re in graduate school. So, it’s amazing to have that wind at your back is what I call the financial wind at your back of having investments. So, that’s just awesome.

15:04 Emily: One thing I did want to ask you though is that like since you had this plan of eventually going to graduate school, were you concerned at all about like your lifestyle or like experiencing lifestyle deflation upon entering graduate school? Because I know that I’ve heard that as like a reason against deferring or against taking time between undergrad and graduate school. It’s like, oh no, what if I become used to spending $60,000 a year and I can’t do that in graduate school, that’s going to be painful. So like, what was your thought process around that, like lifestyle setting aspect of the question?

15:38 Brittany: Oh yeah, that’s a really good point and question. Some other people also brought this up to me as well. But for me there was a little bit of a transition, which I guess we can talk a little bit more later, but the reason why I was able to save so much was because like I was already, I never saw that money because it was always like going direct deposit to my 401(k) or to my savings accounts and things like that. So even though yes, I was making like was like $65K a year or so, I didn’t see that $65K every year. It was like most of it’s already gone to savings. And so I was kind of living as if like I was making more of like $40K or something like that. And so, it wasn’t as bad. And then again, like I mentioned, I learned a lot about like my own habits and values and such. And so then once I came into grad school, I was able to kind of realign that with my current budget.

16:42 Emily: Yes, that makes total sense. And yeah, just having those extra couple of years of experience, as you said, learning about yourself, learning about your own like systems and habits and mindset and so forth with respect to money can be so super helpful with that.

Commercial

16:55 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my tax resources, many of which I have updated for tax year 2022. On that page you will find free podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. The absolute most comprehensive and highest quality resources, however, are my asynchronous tax workshops. I’m offering four tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022, one each for grad students who are U.S. citizens or residents, postdocs who are U.S. citizens or residents, postbacs who are U.S. citizens or residents, and grad students and postdocs who are nonresidents. Those tax return preparation workshops are in addition to my estimated tax workshop for grad student, postdoc, and postbac fellows who are U.S. citizens or residents.

18:11 Emily: My preferred method for enrolling you in one of these workshops is to find a sponsor at your university or institute. Typically, that sponsor is a graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, postdoc association, or an individual school or department. I would very much appreciate you recommending one or more of these workshops to a potential sponsor. If that doesn’t work out, I do sell these workshops to individuals, but I think it’s always worth trying to get it into your hands for free or a subsidized cost. Again, you can find all of these free and paid resources, including a page you can send to a potential workshop sponsor, linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Web Design Business

18:58 Emily: Okay, let’s come back to the business. So, what is the business that you started during this time before entering graduate school? And I guess, you know, did you have it in mind that you would continue it after starting graduate school?

19:12 Brittany: Yeah, so the business that I ended up creating is a web design business specifically for scientists, researchers, and academics, helping them build their online presence and their websites and such. And so, I started this business unofficially in April of 2019. So that’s like about four months after I started working. That was like kind of the, beginnings of it, but I didn’t start like actually getting clients until September. And that’s when I officially launched. And then since then, I’ve been working with a lot of clients one-on-one and doing workshops, collaborating with organizations and such and all those like fun things that come with an online business. And throughout the process, I made about like $15K in revenue, which most of it was reinvested into the business. But I always did have the intention of continuing it in grad school because I wanted to have that additional income.

20:14 Brittany: I think that was like the thing that really was also another concern for me was that I didn’t want to feel limited by my stipend and I wanted to do other things. One of them being visiting family because I’m in Wisconsin now and I’m from Houston, so, you know, flying home at least like three or four times a year is kind of a priority for me. And so, if I’m able to have like this extra side income, then I don’t need to worry about it, like cutting into like my daily expenses.

20:48 Emily: I just love how intentional you were with the choice of the business to start. And also just using again, your time before starting graduate school to establish it. Like you mentioned, you know, your revenue was like largely put back into the business as an investment and that actually makes a lot of sense to do that while you were working your job because the point at that time was not to get income from it, it was to, I assume, it’s to establish the business so that you can really reap that income once you have your graduate student stipend that you’re living on. So yeah, I just, this is so great and like of course also the subject matter of your business is still like related to like academia and like science and so forth, so it’s still like, it’s something that isn’t totally out of left field for like a graduate student to be doing, right? So, I love that choice because you can still sort of market it and it makes sense like even once you start graduate school. So, just to commend you on all of that. That’s great. Is there anything else that you want to say about the business? Where can people find you by the way, if they want to work with you?

21:43 Brittany: Yeah, if you want to work with me, you can find me on my website, brittanytrinh.com. Or you can also just connect with me on Twitter and Instagram, which is b r t t n y t r n h. So, that’s basically my name without the vowels. Yeah, so all the things about like website design start building and starting your website. That’s what I love to do and yeah.

Starting Grad School

22:09 Emily: Okay, great. So, let’s go back to our timeline. So, you’re doing great with your finances, you’re liking your job and so forth. How did you decide that it was finally time to start graduate school?

22:20 Brittany: So, the program that I applied to, or at least in my time, it was a limit of two years for deferral. So, what happened was the graduate program coordinator contacted me at the one-year mark which would’ve been fall of 2019 for me to enroll in fall of 2020, to ask if I was still interested. And I said, I am, but I still wanted to defer another year. And she was like, okay, that’s that’s totally fine, just keep in contact. And so then again, she did that in fall 2020 and well, we all know what happened then. And so at that point, at work things were kind of slowing down because of COVID, and I was just thinking, you know, maybe this is a good time now to go back to school. Because I also felt like I could not progress in the way that I wanted to at my workplace with my current credentials. And just in general, if I wanted to move up in the chemical industry, having a PhD would strengthen my application.

23:20 Emily: You know, we didn’t even mention that earlier, I guess because in your case this was a deferment of an acceptance instead of like a choice to just wait to apply to graduate school. But I love that you also ended up using that time to confirm that you really did need a PhD like for the career because of course you could have just bailed if you said, “Oh no, I have plenty of room for advancement, this is great, my BS is awesome, maybe I’ll do a master’s on the side.” Whatever it is. You could have gone that track, but yeah, I love that you really are sort of once again intentionally like choosing the life and career that you want to have, and use that time to like confirm this is the right path. So, that makes so much sense to me. I understand you did have to technically apply again to Wisconsin, right? So, in that fall of 2020, right? So you’re submitting another application to them. Were you also looking around at other grad schools? Because as I said earlier, now you’re a two-years better candidate than you were the first time around. So, tell us about that too.

24:11 Brittany: Yeah, so this was something that I brought up with the graduate program coordinator at Wisconsin. I was wondering if I was allowed, like if the deferment meant that I was kind of confirming my acceptance and she said, “No, feel free to apply to other schools that you want.” And I was like, okay, that sounds great. So then I did end up applying to four other schools, really reach schools like MIT, Colorado Boulder, Rice, and University of Michigan. And so, I applied to those four other schools, but in the end, I still went with Wisconsin because I thought that they were the strongest program for what I wanted and needed for my own career.

24:57 Emily: Yeah, that’s great and it makes sense. I mean, I guess maybe someone else considering a deferment would still have to check with their program, but it doesn’t really make sense that you would be obligated to go. It’s more like they’re obligated to you <laugh> to still like accept you. Right? But you’re not really obligated in the same way to them. So, that makes sense. Okay. So, you technically apply again, you apply to some other schools. You still decide on Wisconsin. Did you go to a second visit weekend? Did you get to do that again?

25:21 Brittany: Yes, but because of COVID, it was virtual but I still came anyways to, originally it was to look for apartments, but it ended up just being hanging out. And actually, I did meet some professors during that trip, and one of those professors is now my advisor, <laugh>.

25:39 Emily: Okay. So that worked out on multiple fronts.

Financial Transition

25:41 Emily: So, let’s then talk about like the transition to graduate school, like specifically through a financial lens. You mentioned earlier that you did have to make some adjustments. But you have the savings in place, you know, for the moving fund, all that. So, how did that transition go?

25:57 Brittany: So, it was definitely rough in the first semester. Like you mentioned, there was a little bit of a time period where I had to transition my finances in that curbing my spending was a thing. So, I was trying to keep a closer eye on spending, especially like online shopping, clothes, and things like that because obviously I wasn’t making as much as before. And then on the other side of my business, I also made the decision to kind of put it on the back burner for the first semester because I was trying to focus on just transitioning, TAing, coursework, and finding a lab group. So, all those things were happening and I was like, my business does not need to be going on right now. The other thing was that I experienced a little bit of financial anxiety which was mostly avoidance.

26:47 Brittany: And this was because I just didn’t want to think about like how much I was spending now that my budget or my income was a lot less. But obviously that’s not the greatest way to go. So earlier this year, like in January I just decided to, you know, kind of clear all those things up on like my spending habits and things and trying to keep track of like, what do I spend for groceries and all those things and kind of get a good better handle on that. The other thing was that like related to the financial anxiety, it was mostly about like financial future because now it’s like I don’t have as much money as I did before to put towards savings, but I definitely still want to keep saving, which was why I decided to kind of get a better handle on my spending. So then I can see like, okay, can I save like $200 a month? Right? That would equal out to be, I think the $6,000 for like a Roth IRA contribution per year, is that right?

27:49 Emily: It would be $500 a month.

27:50 Brittany: Oh no, it’s $500 a month. Yeah. So yeah, actually $500 a month, not $200. But yeah, so those are some of the things that I wanted to do.

28:00 Emily: Yeah, that makes sense. I’m glad you’re being like, so like open about this and honest about it because I bet other people who had a similar experience would have similar emotions around it of like, you know, feeling more insecure and more anxious even though you knew it was coming <laugh>, like still to see like the smaller numbers in the bank account and like your savings going down because you’re, you know, you’re spending on moving expenses and whatever else is going on. But really glad to hear that you sort of eventually like kind of firmed up on the mindset and the processes and so forth. So, that’s great and thank you so much for sharing. And have you re-ramped up with your business? Again, we’re recording this in April 2022. So now that you’re in like your second semester, is that more, is that something you’re spending time on now?

28:43 Brittany: Yes, definitely spending more time on it. Really wanting, I’m really trying to push for teaching more workshops. I’m still taking on one-on-one clients, although it’s just a little bit different than before. So, definitely taking that first semester off to kind of recalibrate to see like how do I want my PhD experience to go and what I want to get out of it has also helped me realign my own business goals as well. So, that’s been really fun.

29:10 Emily: Okay. Well, this is an unexpected tie-in, but in season 11 we published an episode with Dr. Toyin Alli sort of along these same lines of like moving from one-on-one services to more scalable like passive products. So, interesting. If anyone is like jibing with what Brittany is saying, then check out that episode with Dr. Toyin Alli where we talk more about these like strategies.

For Whom is Deferring a Good Option?

29:32 Emily: Okay. So, kind of to wrap up here, for whom do you think deferring is a good option?

29:39 Brittany: I think deferring may be a good option for anyone who’s like at all doubting their decision to do a PhD because that’s how I felt. Like I did not want to do a PhD yet, at the time that I was accepted for not just financial reasons, but also a lot of like emotional and like mental health reasons. I felt a lot of burnout from undergrad and I wasn’t sure if I could complete a PhD successfully given where I was at at the time. And I don’t really think that the decision to do a PhD should be taken lightly, right? And so if you’re not sure, like you’re honestly better off taking that time to work at a job and figure out like what you like to do or like in my case, like do you even really need a PhD for what you want to do? And like just in general learning more about the industry that you want to work in and ultimately you should just do the PhD, or I guess when you decide to do the PhD, it’s because it’s an experience that you want to have in your life. So, getting to like a more like affirming position rather than like feeling FOMO about not doing a PhD.

30:53 Emily: Love that. I had, so I didn’t defer my acceptance to grad school. I just waited to apply until, I was planning on taking two years between undergrad and grad school. I ended up applying so that I enrolled just one year after I finished undergrad. But for some of the same reasons that you just mentioned, like I felt like I was a stronger candidate having had like extra work experience. I wanted to see what science was like in a different kind of setting than what I experienced during undergrad. All of that still just confirmed for me that I did want to do the PhD. What you did that I did not, was really working on the finances in that time because I did a post-bac program, which paid me basically what a grad student stipend is. So, there were no financial advantages there, but there were those other advantages still that you mentioned. So, that’s so great.

31:35 Emily: And where could people find you if they want to follow up? You mentioned your business website earlier, do that again, but let’s say someone wanted to follow up more on like the personal side about deferring or something. Where can people find you?

31:44 Brittany: Yeah, so definitely you can still visit me on my website, brittanytrinh.com. Or you can email me at [email protected] if you want to like send a longer message. And also just again, connect with me on my social media accounts. You can just tag me or DM me as well.

32:02 Emily: Sounds great.

32:03 Brittany: Totally open to share more. Yeah.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

32:05 Emily: Good, good. Okay, so, we’ll finalize here with the question that I ask of all my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve talked about in this episode or it could be something completely new.

32:19 Brittany: Yeah, so I would say that my best financial advice is to find a skill that you like enough to leverage for extra income. So, a lot of people do like tutoring, writing, editing, whatever. And like one of my, like my roommate, she like does like cover art for like, you know, for like for publications and such. So, it’s like having those types of skills or just having something that you like to do. Especially like if it’s something that doesn’t require too much time or effort from you, it’s always more, it’s more beneficial to you anyways. And like you don’t have to build like a whole business, but it’s good to know that you have another way to make extra money if you want to.

33:05 Emily: Yeah, that’s interesting you say that because I mean, I totally agree. I’m so on board with this advice <laugh>. But like furthermore, you’ve built like a business and you have like a brand and all of that, but someone doesn’t need to go to that level to make extra money on the side. Like they could do more like freelancing or like put themselves on, is it called Upwork now? Is that the current name for the website?

33:24 Brittany: Yeah, Upwork.

33:24 Emily: Yeah, Upwork. So, they can put themselves on Upwork or something like that where like you’re finding clients but you don’t need to necessarily build a whole infrastructure around it. At least not at the start while you’re just like trying things out. So, I love that, just like thinking about what skills you enjoy that you have that might be a little bit unique in the marketplace. I definitely see how your skills with like the website building is unique and something very needed. And especially if you can speak like the language of, you know, your clients, that’s a big advantage. Anyway. I love your business so that’s awesome. Brittany, thank you so much for joining me for this interview! It’s been wonderful! I hope the listeners got a ton out of it. Thank you so much!

33:56 Brittany: Thank you for having me!

Outtro

34:03 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

The Tax and Retirement Effects of Receiving Fellowship Funding

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jamie Lahvic about her experience being funded by fellowship during grad school at Harvard and her postdoc at the University of California, Berkeley. Regarding the tax complications of being on fellowship and the lack of retirement benefits, Jamie and Emily outline the issues, discuss possible solutions, and suggest advocacy avenues for instigating change. Listen through the end of the interview for the Big Questions regarding the true nature of fellowships and employment.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

S14E3: Image The Tax and Retirement Effects of Receiving Fellowship Funding

Teaser

00:00 Jamie: Because I often felt, you know, in addition to like the confusion and the frustration and wondering what to do, that I don’t know, it felt like an emotional hit. I felt unvalued when I’m put into this weird little category where my earnings don’t make sense and I can’t open an account and I can’t figure out how to pay taxes. And I went on this really kind of rollercoaster from feeling like, “Oh, I’m a valued scientist and worker in this field,” down to like, “Oh, nobody really cares about me or the type of work that I’m doing.”

Introduction

00:38 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 3, and today my guest is Dr. Jamie Lahvic. We discuss Jamie’s experience being funded by fellowship during grad school at Harvard and her postdoc at the University of California, Berkeley. Regarding the tax complications of being on fellowship and the lack of retirement benefits, Jamie and I outline the issues, discuss possible solutions, and suggest advocacy avenues for instigating change. Listen through the end of the interview for the Big Questions regarding the true nature of fellowships and employment.

01:43 Emily: If there are any prospective PhD students listening—and I hope there are—I want to point you to a new workshop I’ve been publishing in installments throughout this academic year, Set Yourself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School. Now that we’re in admissions season, the modules are getting really exciting and immediately actionable. The two most recent modules are titled “Decipher and Compare Your Offer Letters” and “How to Negotiate Your Stipend and/or Benefits.” One from last fall that you might want to check out as you’re evaluating the cities your offers are in is “Stipends vs. Cost of Living.” I sincerely want you to go into grad school with your eyes wide open regarding the financial realities and in the strongest financial position possible for the program you choose. I hope you will check out the workshop and enroll in the modules that will help you accomplish that. Go to pfforphds.com/setyourselfup/ for more information. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s14e3/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jamie Lahvic.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:01 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jamie Lahvic. Super delighted to have Jamie here. We actually met at a conference last summer. I’m recording this in November, 2022. So, we met at the Graduate Career Consortium Annual Meeting, which was in July, 2022. We ran into each other during like a break or something, and we just started chatting and we had this electric conversation about funding, about fellowships, about benefits, about systemic issues that need to be addressed. And I just wanted to capture some of that magical conversation here on the podcast. So, Jamie, I’m super delighted to have you on. Will you please introduce yourself to the audience?

03:42 Jamie: Sure! My name is Jamie Lahvic. I am currently working as a Program Officer at the National Institute on Aging, where I focus on some policies as well as programs related to graduate students, postdocs, and early career faculty. But today I’m kind of excited to talk about my own personal experiences as a graduate student and then a postdoc. So, I went to grad school at Harvard Medical School studying biomedical sciences and then I moved on to UC Berkeley to do a postdoc in cancer biology. And I wrapped up that postdoc in 2021.

04:18 Emily: I’m really excited to see all these different perspectives from you being at a private university, a public university, now in government. Like, this is awesome! And I’m of course going to share some of my own limited experience as well. But we’ve both had some observations about these issues about the finances and the benefits and so forth that are offered to graduate students and postdocs as employees or as fellows. So, I want to, for the listeners just to introduce them. I have a framework, this is not necessarily the way that everybody talks about this, but in my mind there are sort of two broad classifications that graduate students and postdocs can fall into. One is as an employee. The way you know that you’re an employee especially if you’re a citizen or resident, is if you receive a W-2 <laugh> at tax time, that’s like really indicative that you’re an employee.

05:04 Emily: So, you have this employer/employee relationship with the university and that may cause different benefits and so forth to be offered to you. The other classification, a little harder to name, a lot of people use the term fellowship, but not only things called fellowships could fall into this classification. So, I broadly call it awarded income when your income comes from an award that you received. Could be certain types of grants, could be a fellowship, could be some other things. So, that’s the language we’ll be using. We’ll just say fellowship for shorthand, but that basically just means non-employee or at least under the, you know, the timing and circumstances of receiving that award, you’re a non-employee.

Switching Between Grad Student Funding Sources

05:37 Emily: Okay. With that clarification out of the way, let’s talk about, you know, your personal experiences, my personal experiences with being an employee and/or being a fellow during grad school and postdoc. So, we’ll probably take this like topically. What would you like to share? What you know surprised you about maybe switching between these two types of funding? What issues did they bring up? Go ahead.

05:59 Jamie: Sure. Yeah, so as a graduate student, I was never an employee. I was always either paid a student stipend coming straight from the university or then a fellowship stipend once I got an NIH fellowship. So there, it still was a really complicated process. I remember being very surprised first year as a graduate student to try to figure out how to pay taxes, how to pay estimated taxes every year. And it seemed to become more complicated every year, especially because once I got my fellowship, some of my money would come from the fellowship, some of it would come from the university. Those would come in separate paychecks. And then later on once I was teaching I would get a third paycheck to cover the teaching that I was doing. And throughout all of that, I never received a W-2. Every now and then I would receive a 1099 for the teaching, but they were kind of inconsistent in whether they would send that. So come tax time, I kind of never knew what I should even do. So, that was a big struggle.

07:01 Emily: Yeah. Let’s talk about the tax issue for a minute longer, because I mean, you probably know this is like part of the bread and butter of my business now because so many graduate students and postdocs are running into confusion around the tax issues. And basically, I mean we will link in the show notes some episodes I’ve done on this in the past, but it basically boils down to like when you’re an employee, your employer has certain responsibilities in terms of telling you how much money you’ve been paid and how much money they withheld on your behalf and so forth. And once you get into this weird non-employee status, they simply don’t have those legal responsibilities in the way that they do for employees. And so, universities take like all these different approaches. And you’re saying even within Harvard, different pools of money were being reported in different ways.

07:46 Emily: And so, yeah, of course, that gets confusing for the recipient when the vast majority of our like, I mean already the U.S. tax system is so complicated to navigate, but if you step outside of the simple like employee world, it gets even harder to find, you know, the support and the resources that you need. That’s part of why I do what I do. But yeah, tell me a little bit more about how you dealt with these like challenges or complications of not having income tax withheld, for example, or like the reporting inconsistencies?

Team Effort for Taxes

08:15 Jamie: Yeah, I think a lot of the students kind of banded together to help each other. I remember we had one really proactive student who would post in our year’s Facebook group four times a year saying, “Remember, pay your estimated taxes.” And I was like so grateful to get that reminder because I was so caught up in, you know, rotations and qualifying exams and whatnot. I just couldn’t think about remembering to do this. So, just having somebody send a reminder was amazing. And then we did a lot of talking to each other to try to fill out the forms correctly. I think I was a few years into graduate school when I found your website and some of your tips, and I remember that being just amazing and just feeling like that’s something that was, you know, it’s complicated but once it’s laid out it is relatively simple. It is the type of information that the university could have given us that they never really did because they wanted to stay away from giving tax advice and they’re not a certified public accountant, and that type of thing. So, it felt like the students were on our own to try and figure it out.

09:17 Emily: Yeah, I think that again, while the universities don’t have again this legal requirement to issue tax forms that make sense, or whatever, I do think it’s really helpful when they try to address this as much as they’re able to. And I mean, I hear a lot of pushback when I work with uni–not a lot. Some places I hear pushback like, “Oh we really can’t, you know, give tax advice and so forth.” And I try to kind of make the point like, “Well, you on your own or me, like we could talk about this without it being advice.” Like we can just talk generally about how estimated tax works and what these different reporting things that are going on are. And that’s what I do like with my quarterly estimated tax workshop. Again, we’ll link it in the show notes. And so, a lot of times universities contract with me to provide that because they feel like that shifts some liability off of them and onto me and they’re more comfortable with that.

10:07 Emily: But again, just giving a little bit of education and some reminders and tips and so forth is not, to me, giving advice, because really it is ultimately up to the individual to figure this out. Like I’m not sitting down with anyone filling out their forms, like they’re still doing that on their own. I’m just providing guidance on how to do so. So, I guess this is kind of turning into an ad but like if the listener <laugh>, if you listeners are on fellowship and you want your university to help you, tell them about what I offer, because they may feel more comfortable working with me then doing this, you know, with an internal employee who, you know, might expose them to some liability.

Added Hardship of Inconsistent Tax Reporting

10:41 Emily: Okay. Estimated tax and reporting stuff, all a difficulty of being on fellowship. Anything more you’d like to add about that? Or should we move on to a new talking point?

10:52 Jamie: I just thought it, you know, in addition to kind of the confusion, it can sometimes cause real hardship. Like for me for instance, I didn’t receive a 1099 for my final chunk of teaching that I did in my like final year as a graduate student. And so, in between doing that teaching and like the spring and into summer semester, I got a postdoc. I moved across the country, I had started a whole new tax, you know, qualification as an employee there. And then when it came time to do taxes, I honestly completely forgot about the money I had gotten paid in the previous spring. Because I never received any kind of 1099, any kind of documentation, and I just didn’t pay taxes on it. And I think I like woke up in the middle of the night sometime like three months later and went like, “Oh my god, I made like thousands of dollars <laugh> that I didn’t pay any taxes on.” And then like on my own, I had to then figure out how to adjust my taxes. I had to pay a penalty for the amount that I, you know, had failed to pay previously. And at the time, like I had just spent all of this money to move cross country. I was making a postdoc salary. Like I really didn’t need to be paying any extra penalties on my taxes for that type of thing.

Potential Changes at the University Level

12:04 Emily: Absolutely. I mean, good for you for doing the amended return and everything, because I know some people will just kind of let it go after that point. But you really don’t want to let it go like multiple years and then have the IRS, I mean I know it’s rare, but it can happen that they can come after you, and then it’s an even bigger problem. So, good that you took care of it. But I think kind of what we’re saying here is just like communication, <laugh> communication is helpful around this topic. So, we’ve talked about this problem, various problems related to taxes. What are some things that could change at the university level, state level, federal level, whatever it is, to alleviate these problems?

12:41 Jamie: I mean at the university level, my understanding is that even if you’re not an employee, the university can still give you a 1099 for the money that you’ve made, and that universities, as far as I know, kind of choose whether or not to go through that step and send out those 1099s. So, I think that’s a major thing that just having a very clear document makes filing your taxes easier. You know, that’s something that like TurboTax and similar basic tax filing software knows how to work with. So, I think that would make a huge difference for a lot of students.

13:12 Emily: So, I actually did experience this during graduate school, so I’ve had a couple periods of my life where I was on fellowship. But when I was at Duke, Duke actually did manage to withhold income tax on behalf of at least me. I don’t know if every type of fellowship it was available, but at least for me, about half my years I was on this like non-employee kind of income. So, they were able to withhold on my behalf, and they did issue a 1099-MISC (Miscellaneous) at year’s end. So, that helps with like the problem you just identified of like, you know, a year and a half goes by and you’ve forgotten about some chunk of your income. Yes, that does help with that problem. The issue that it causes <laugh> is that the 1099 is most widely recognized as a self-employment income kind of document.

13:59 Emily: And so, then there’s, I feel like there’s even more burden on the recipient to properly communicate what this is with their tax software or their tax preparer. So, if they know to do that and they know that they’re not supposed to pay self-employment tax on this income, then it can work out. As a reporting document, it’s okay, but I would say, you know, nine times out of 10, people don’t know that it’s not self-employment income or maybe they know that, but they don’t know how to communicate that. And they don’t check that, they don’t understand how it’s going to affect their return. Anyway, so it can cause an even bigger mess. So like, I hesitate to say that that is the best solution. I mean really to me, I would say the 1098-T is the best form that we have as of now.

Reflections on an Adjusted 1098-T and Streamlined Tax Reporting

14:50 Emily: Although I would love it if there was just an adjusted 1098-T or a different kind of form that really could fully reflect the fellowship like situation. Because again, the 1098-T, while it’s used by many universities, they’re not required to issue one if you have more of this box five grant income than you do box one, like the educational expenses and charges. So, if they would just issue it all the time, I think that would be helpful. But even going beyond that, like this is now like a federal level kind of thing. Like if there were a different form or the 1098-T itself were somehow different, that would be even more clear.

15:26 Jamie: Totally. Yeah. Yeah, and I know anecdotally, I eventually switched over from like the TurboTax software to I think FreeTaxUSA that has a great little box to check that said you know, is this income, are you like, are you a graduate student or postoc rather than an undergraduate? Because I think it’s typically with that 1098-T where they’re trying to like not take out taxes on the portion that you’ve used to cover scholarly expenses, which applies to like an undergraduate who’s receiving, you know, tuition reimbursement, but not to a graduate student. So, I could imagine at the federal level, you could create a little box like that on the 1098-T, right? To check here if this is a graduate or postdoctoral level fellowship, right? Or check here if this money is not being used to cover tuition and scholarly expenses. It would be nice.

16:20 Emily: I think this is both like maybe a reporting option at the federal level, but also it comes down to the university level and how, like which department is the one that’s like processing these paychecks. And you are, like saying how you did about your various different incomes from Harvard, that indicates to me that like maybe payroll was issuing some of this, maybe financial aid was issuing some of this. And like having these different siloed departments separated from one another communication-wise means that things are not streamlined and you get different types of forms and maybe for you, maybe you were on different pay schedules for, you know, different sources. Yeah. So, having like a single department that handles like all, you know, income for graduate students and postdocs, whether it is payroll income for employees, whether it is, you know, non-employee income, that might help. I don’t know, maybe that’ll cause other problems too, but like right now, again, the universities are not really set up to handle this in a streamlined, or at least, I don’t want to say broadly. Some universities are not set up to handle this in a streamlined manner. Maybe others have it a little more figured out. I don’t know.

17:23 Jamie: I know actually when I got paid at UC Berkeley, it was more like that. So there, I was eventually on a fellowship as well, but I received one paycheck per month. And it was kind of interesting because, you know, I would receive my lump monthly salary or stipend from the fellowship, but only a little portion of that would get taxed. So, there would be like a little tiny bit of tax taken out, and then the rest of it was untaxed. But it at least came to me on like one single paycheck where it was very clear how much tax had been withheld, and then I could run the numbers when it came time to pay the estimated taxes on the rest.

17:59 Emily: So, it sounds like you were still receiving a pay stub. Even though a portion of this is employee. Yeah, that’s perfect. I mean, I kind of always tell people who are employees like, “Okay, look at your last pay stub, even before you receive your tax forms. Look at your last pay stub.” Maybe you have to access it through your payroll system or whatever, but you can find out how much tax was withheld. But again, those pay stubs are not generated usually if you’re a non-employee. But it sounds like Berkeley has this figured out, so I’m really happy to hear that. I would, yeah, I would love to be able to come up with like, I don’t know best practices, like which universities are using the best practices. So like, Duke has something figured out over here, Berkeley has something figured out over here. Like, I don’t know, maybe there’s a way to again, promulgate these best practices among these different universities and financial whatever, backend stuff.

18:44 Jamie: Yeah, and you know, I think great groups to kind of connect to for that are unions. Within the UC system, we have a strong postdoc union. And I think they had done a lot of pushing, you know, both on how much you get paid, but also a lot of these minute policies about how you get paid. And so I wouldn’t be surprised if the more streamlined system came about because of pressure from the union. And I’d be interested to know what other, you know, grad student unions and postdoc unions are where they’re having successes.

19:13 Emily: Yeah, I’m super glad to hear that. Exactly. Like sort of giving a voice to these, well, you might not know, but the downstream effect of this like decision that you’ve made, the way you’ve set up the system is it’s causing these problems.

Commercial

19:28 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my tax resources, many of which I have updated for tax year 2022. On that page you will find free podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. The absolute most comprehensive and highest quality resources, however, are my asynchronous tax workshops. I’m offering four tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022, one each for grad students who are US citizens or residents, postdocs who are U.S. citizens or residents, postbacs who are U.S. citizens or residents, and grad students and postdocs who are nonresidents. Those tax return preparation workshops are in addition to my estimated tax workshop for grad student, postdoc, and postbac fellows who are U.S. citizens or residents.

20:43 Emily: My preferred method for enrolling you in one of these workshops is to find a sponsor at your university or institute. Typically, that sponsor is a graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, postdoc association, or an individual school or department. I would very much appreciate you recommending one or more of these workshops to a potential sponsor. If that doesn’t work out, I do sell these workshops to individuals, but I think it’s always worth trying to get it into your hands for free or a subsidized cost. Again, you can find all of these free and paid resources, including a page you can send to a potential workshop sponsor, linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Advocacy Avenues for Grad Students and Postdocs

21:28 Emily: The last kind of question in this area, and you just mentioned one of the advocacy avenues: unions. Can you think of any other advocacy avenues that graduate students and postdocs might be able to use to make these kinds of changes that we’re talking about?

21:45 Jamie: I mean, even outside of a formal union, I’ve seen a lot of success from graduate students and postdocs just banding together and working together on these things. Whether that is kind of peer-to-peer advice and providing resources, or working together as a group to request something from your department, from your university. You know, I have so many memories of like trying to do my taxes, trying to fill in the forms, and getting like frustrated and upset and not knowing what to do. And I think like you have peers who can help you through some of those things and at least to help you feel supported.

22:25 Emily: Now, I don’t know exactly what avenue this is, but I have noticed over the years that I’ve been studying federal taxes for, you know, as in how they affect graduate students and postdocs, that there have been changes. The 1098-T has gone through actually a big remodel in the last few years. The Kiddie Tax went through a slight change with the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. So, there have been other changes that have been made that makes me realize that changes possible. Now, I don’t know what the avenue is for letting someone know, <laugh> that you want a change to happen. Maybe it’s contacting your representative or your senator or whatever. We can talk about some of the advocacy around like retirement stuff that happened a few years ago in a moment, but the change can happen. I’m just not clear exactly how you communicate, you know, this advocacy at the federal level.

23:09 Jamie: Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, I know I’ve been on like the IRS website looking for like from their resources, like what is their advice for people in these situations. And what I found was only a few lines, right? Like not a lot of detail. So, I would love to see, you know, coming directly from the IRS some more clear advice around these types of situations. And I do know that government agencies put out things like RFIs, requests for information, and they do have various sort of feedback channels, so trying to find those for the IRS or for your state tax departments could be one way to go about it.

(No) Access to University Retirement Accounts

23:48 Emily: Okay. Future project for me. Okay, well I just alluded to retirement accounts, so let’s talk about that next. What’s been your experience with being offered or not being offered access to university retirement accounts?

24:01 Jamie: Sure. So, as a graduate student, I didn’t have any option for any kind of retirement account. And my understanding was that from legal sort of tax reporting purposes, I wasn’t able to open an official retirement account. So, in graduate school I was making like just enough money to save up a little bit and I did start buying like some mutual funds with that. And then as a postdoc, I did have a retirement account offered. However, I started out by like not really contributing very much to it at all because I was living in this really high cost-of-living area with not a lot of income. And then I actually found out as I was going through the fellowship application process that I was going to be losing that retirement contribution once I got a fellowship coming in. So then I sort of, at the last minute just before my fellowship came in, I like maxed out all my contributions as best as I could for like the last few months and tried to top it off. But then the fellowship came in and those accounts kind of sat stagnant for the rest of my postdoc. So, that was a frustrating thing to see. And it’s definitely been really nice now for a little more than a year I’ve been in, you know, a real job with very solid you know, federal government retirement accounts. So, that’s been nice to watch those finally like properly growing.

25:26 Emily: Yeah, it’s been my observation that if you’re not an employee, you do not have access to the 403(b) or 457. I actually don’t know why this is the case, but I’ve never seen an exception to it. Like yeah, I guess it has to do with like the rules behind what kinds of money can be contributed to a 401(k) or a 403(b), 457, these kinds of accounts. What I mentioned earlier, and you probably know this is, at the end of 2019 with the SECURE Act, there was a definitional change. So, 2019 and prior, fellowship-type income not reported on a W-2 was not permitted to be contributed to an IRA, an individual retirement arrangement. But that definition of what kind of money is allowed to be contributed to an IRA was changed by the SECURE Act.

26:18 Emily: And so 2020 and forward, you can contribute fellowship income not reported on a W-2, if you’re a graduate student or postdoc, to an individual retirement arrangement. I don’t know why a similar definition change could not occur for 403(b)s, 457s, et cetera. I just know that I’ve never seen it. I’ve never seen a non-employee be offered access to that particular benefit. Furthermore, at the graduate student level, it’s just very, very rare. Not totally unheard of, but rare, that a graduate student employee is offered access to those accounts. It does happen from time to time, but usually not. I’ve had a couple podcast episodes, and we’ll link in the show notes, where people have talked about as a graduate student contributing to those types of accounts. But again, it’s not common.

27:00 Jamie: I didn’t know actually about that change to the SECURE Act. Like I was still a postdoc in 2020 and I had had that IRA that I had opened like just before my fellowship started. But yeah, I definitely wasn’t contributing to it in 2020 and 2021. I had no idea that that was a possibility.

27:17 Emily: Yeah, I don’t think it was, I mean I talked about it a lot, but just like generally speaking, people make that assumption, right? That graduate students and postdocs are usually not able to contribute to a retirement account. So, why would we even have the conversation about whether they’re allowed to or not? Thankfully, someone was having the conversation because there was a change, right? Because I mean I remember that Senator Elizabeth Warren was a sponsor of this bill. There were other co-sponsors. It came up multiple times in the Senate and the House and it just never passed, multiple years, until it was rolled into the SECURE Act. There were a lot of other changes going on with how retirement accounts were being treated. So, it was kind of rolled into that and I’ll link in the show notes a couple of episodes we did right around that. But again, people make these rules. So, if people at the federal level decided that graduate student and postdoc non-employee income was legitimate in whatever, you know, little tax benefit they’re trying to offer, then it could become legitimate and maybe universities also would follow suit and start to offer that benefit. I actually don’t know why graduate students would be excluded from 403(b)s and 457s. Does it cost the university anything? Like a little more administrative burden to extend those benefits? I honestly don’t know why they wouldn’t for those students who can.

28:34 Jamie: Yeah, especially if it’s not a question of matching, if it’s just a question of contributing your own earnings into this account, right?

28:41 Emily: We can dream, Jamie, that there would ever be a match <laugh>. That’s a couple more steps down the road. No, some postdocs do receive matches or actually, I don’t know about you for being a postdoc in the UC system, but the UC system has a defined contribution level for their employees. I don’t know if it applies to postdocs, but in any case you might get that as an employee and then lose it if you, you know, then switch over to fellowship at a non-employee.

29:06 Jamie: Yeah, I believe in the UC system, I never got any kind of match, but I did have access to that 403(b) as well as I think a DCP.

29:15 Emily: Yeah.

“Non-Employee” Fellowship Income Legitimacy

29:16 Jamie: But yeah, I think it’s interesting that you describe it as like the legitimacy of being an employee and the legitimacy of that income. Because I often felt, you know, in addition to like the confusion and the frustration and wondering what to do that, I don’t know, it felt like an emotional hit. I felt unvalued when I’m put into this weird little category where my earnings don’t make sense and I can’t open an account and I can’t figure out how to pay taxes. I remember having like some really sharp juxtapositions between attending a professional conference and like giving a talk and talking to PIs in my field and having people really excited about the work that I was doing and then coming home a week or two later and trying to figure out some of my financial life and it being so confusing and seeing that there was just no support set up for it. And I went on this really kind of roller coaster from feeling like, “Oh, I’m a valued scientist and worker in this field,” down to like, “Oh, nobody really cares about me or the type of work that I’m doing.” So, I think it can have an emotional hit as well.

30:24 Emily: I’m so glad that you shared that. I think this is how we started our conversation at GCC actually, that fellowships and similar kinds of awards are supposed to be so prestigious.

30:35 Jamie: Exactly.

30:36 Emily: It’s supposed to be such an honor. It’s supposed to be based on your merit that you’ve received this. And yet the downstream effects are, well now you’ve been unclassified as an employee and your benefits are reduced. And I don’t know, maybe at some point in the past, the money made up for it. Like maybe you could make more as a fellow, which could make up for some of these issues. But I don’t know that that’s so much the case now. I was actually just seeing on Twitter today that like, you know, fellowship awards on certain grants are set at such a level that they’re below the minimums the universities have to pay their own graduate students and postdocs. So it’s like, well if you’re not even making more and the university has to make up some deficit in the award that you’re receiving, like what is the point of this when it has these negative implications later on?

31:27 Jamie: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think the point for, well you know, it’s a point for your PI, right? It saves them some money out of their budget, and otherwise it’s a line on your resume. You got this prestigious award, congrats. Here’s some prestige. Right?

Inherent Value of a Fellowship

31:44 Emily: This almost reminds me of like, I don’t know, I’m thinking like crypto, like a currency. Like it only has value because we’ve decided it has value, it doesn’t have inherent value. If it came with more money that would be inherent value, but would it still be actually worth it? How much money would it take to make up for some of these deficits that we’re talking about?

32:04 Jamie: That’s a good question, yeah.

32:05 Emily: Right. So like, not only is it maybe the retirement stuff that we mentioned. Now on the tax front, you’re not necessarily paying more in taxes, it’s just more difficult. But I will say there are certain tax benefits I know at the federal level that you’re not eligible for if you have only this non-employee kind of income. So for example, the earned income tax credit, which is supposed to be for low-income individuals, usually with children, multiple children who are not making enough money, they have to have “earned income.” And under that definition, as of now, 2022, fellowship income is not considered earned income. So, you can’t get the earned income tax credit. You also can’t get the child and dependent care tax credit, which was so valuable in 2021. It was massively increased in 2021. You can’t get it if, let’s say even if you’re married to someone else, let’s say I ran into this situation literally I had a question from this married couple, both postdoc fellows, could not take this tax benefit because they did not have earned income under the definition. Now, graduate students can take it because students have an exception. But postdocs, everybody forgets about the postdocs!

33:08 Jamie: Everybody forgets the postdocs, it’s true!

33:11 Emily: Postdocs don’t have this exception <Laugh>. Everybody forgets that postdocs exist and yet for some, in some career paths, you can spend just as much time as a postdoc as you will as a graduate student, maybe even if not more. It’s a very important life stage. There’s family formation going on, and yet they’re excluded from some of these benefits. And like we were just saying, it comes back to is this fellowship income considered earned income? And that term earned income is used all over the tax code or the way the tax code is interpreted. Now, it used to be used for retirement account contributions, then the term was changed, taxable compensation, then the definition of taxable compensation was changed to include fellowship income. So, why can’t this term earned income be changed to include this type of income? I think this brings up a bigger, even bigger, bigger question though, which is like what is earned income?

Earned Income: Great Expectations

34:04 Emily: What is the responsibility that you have when you receive this non-employee income? What’s the responsibility that your employer has to you or your non-employer has to you? What’s the responsibility you have to your non-employer? So, if you’re an employee, you’re expected to work and produce certain outputs, whether it’s teaching, research, whatever. If you’re receiving a fellowship, it’s much less clear what the outputs are supposed to be. You have to have outputs to continue to be on the fellowship. But what are they exactly? And I think that lack of definition is what’s going into this earned income, not, you know, fellowship income not being considered earned income.

34:39 Jamie: Yeah, no, I think you’re right about that and I think that’s how this ties into kind of bigger labor questions, right? About our graduate students. Should they be classified as employees? Are they workers or are they students? And these are, you know, big things that have big implications across the U.S. and especially for universities on not just tax status but on a lot of things about how academics do their work and how academics get paid.

35:08 Emily: I’m so thankful for this conversation because it’s really like stretching me to think about these like bigger issues exactly as you were just saying. Whether we’re on fellowship or whether we’re employees, is there actually a difference there? Why are these differences encoded at the university level, at the federal level, state level, if they don’t have much meaning to us at the functional day-to-day, month-to-month, year-to-year. I know I mentioned earlier about half my time as a graduate student was spent as an employee, half as a non-employee. Functionally, what is the difference between what I was doing one year versus another year? It felt all pretty much the same to me.

35:45 Jamie: Yeah, and I think I remember it being sold to me as if you receive a fellowship, you have more independence from your PI because you’re bringing in your own money so you can be more independent in, you know, what experiments you do or how you drive your project. But in actual experience of my own or talking to other people, their level of independence was really just dependent on their PI and how that PI ran their lab. And I didn’t know anyone who was able to be more empowered because they had the fellowship or were able to push back on PI demands because of the fellowship.

36:22 Emily: I did see people who received fellowships be able to switch labs when possibly that wouldn’t have been the case otherwise. They were more attractive to that PI like accepting them. And they could, you know, take some time to get up to speed or whatever, again, without some maybe output expectations of being on a different kind of grant or whatnot. But I think you’re right, you know, we’re both kind of speaking coming from like the biological sciences kind of research. There’s so much overhead, there’s so much cost to that. How much money is the student really bringing in versus how much is their research overall costing the PI and the university? And so, if that ratio is not that great in the student’s favor, I don’t think there’s much independence that they can advocate for. Now, if your cost of doing research is like pretty much only your salary if you don’t have those kinds of overhead from doing like wet lab experiments and so forth, then maybe there’s a better argument here about independence from the PI. And I think in the humanities fields, some of them, at any rate, my understanding from talking with people is that like they have a lot more independence anyway in their research questions. And so a fellowship could be even more in that direction. But, yeah, I do think this is very, very field dependent.

37:32 Jamie: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Future of Research

37:35 Emily: Well, this conversation has been so invigorating. Is there anything else that you want to share about your experiences or your observations or advocacy avenues that we can encourage listeners to take?

37:46 Jamie: I mean, I always love to tell people to check out the organization Future of Research. I used to serve on their board of directors and it’s a really great non-profit that kind of helps students and postdocs come together and crowdsource information and advocacy plans and push the field of research forward from the point of view of these early-career folks.

38:08 Emily: Excellent. And we will link in the show notes an interview that I did with Dr. Gary McDowell, the former director of Future of Research where we talked about post-doc salaries and post-doc work environments and how to, you know, choose a supportive PI and these kinds of questions. That’s excellent. Well, Jamie, I’m so glad that we got this interview out on the podcast that it didn’t just have to stay in the halls of the GFF conference, but that’s where great ideas are born with these like mixings and so forth and it was great to meet you in person and yeah, to be able to record this for the podcast listeners. So, thank you so much for coming on!

38:44 Jamie: Thanks, it was wonderful talking to you!

Outtro

38:51 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This Grad Student Fellow Resolved an Expensive Tax Bill in His Favor

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In this episode, Emily interviews Matty Dowd, a sixth-year PhD student in history at Princeton. Matty openly shares with us the tax horror story he lived for most of 2021 and into 2022. In 2018 and 2019, Matty reported his fellowship income as “other income” on his tax returns, which caused the IRS to mistakenly think that he owed self-employment tax. To compound the issue, the IRS’s snail mail communications never reached him. By the time Matty realized what was going on, the IRS thought he owed $16,000 in back taxes, penalties and interest. Matty reached out to multiple sources to help him resolve this, but ultimately used Emily’s workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), to explain to the IRS what had gone awry and have the issue resolved in his favor. It’s a harrowing story with a happy ending! You won’t want to miss Matty’s ending thoughts on the most effective way to approach tax and financial education.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

Image for S14E2: How This Grad Student Fellow Resolved an Expensive Tax Bill in His Favor

Teaser

00:00 Matty: I’ll be very honest and upfront to the point where it may be a little bit embarrassing for me, looking back at how I handled this throughout these years.

Introduction

00:14 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 14, Episode 2, and today my guest is Matty Dowd, who at the time of the recording was a fifth-year PhD student in history at Princeton. Matty openly shares with us the tax horror story that he lived for most of 2021 and into 2022. In 2018 and 2019, Matty reported his fellowship income as “other income” on his tax returns, which caused the IRS to mistakenly think that he owed self-employment tax. To compound the issue, the IRS’s snail mail communications never reached him. By the time Matty realized what was going on, the IRS thought he owed $16,000 in back taxes, penalties, and interest. Matty reached out to multiple sources to help him resolve this but ultimately used my workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), to explain to the IRS what had gone awry and have the issue resolved in his favor. It’s a harrowing story with a happy ending! You won’t want to miss Matty’s ending thoughts on the most effective way to approach tax and financial education.

01:55 Emily: If you would like to sign up for the tax workshop Matty and I discuss during this interview or one of the sister workshops for postdocs or nonresidents, you can find everything linked from the Tax Center of my website, PFforPhDs.com/tax/. The first live Q&A call for this tax season will take place this Thursday, January 26, 2023. So, if you plan to file your tax return in January, I highly recommend joining the workshop now so you’re prepared with your questions by Thursday. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s14e2/. As ever nothing you hear on this podcast should be considered tax, financial, or legal advice for any individual. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Matty Dowd.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

02:52 Emily: On today’s episode, we are going to talk about one of my favorite subjects, which is taxes, but we do not have such a cheerful story. My guest today is Matty Dowd. He’s a fifth-year graduate student at Princeton in history. And he’s going to be telling us about a tax debacle <laugh> that he walked into a few years back, and that has taken a few years to unravel. So, it’s going to be a really like involved story. But for those of you who are confused about taxes or worried about taxes, <laugh>, this might be a really great episode to listen to and to share because a lot of people make the same kinds of mistakes that Matty did, and they get amplified and he’ll tell us how to resolve it or at least how he resolved it. So, really, really glad to have you on, Matty. Would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

03:36 Matty: Sure. Thank you for having me on! It’s great to be here. Yeah, so my name’s Matty. I’m a fifth-year PhD student, as was said. I studied at Tufts University for undergraduate and then did a master’s at the University of Paris. So, I went kind of straight through in the academic path, which may or may not be relevant to the later <laugh> discussion. And then I also worked a bit on the side and kind of continued to have over the past several years a mixture of like hobbies and other small jobs, translating, working as a resident assistant as a tour guide, playing piano at churches, tutoring, and that kind of thing. So, sort of supplementing my income with other hobbies slash skills that were somewhat related maybe to my interests.

Funding and Tax Preparation 2018-2019

04:23 Emily: Well, Matty, I’m really pleased that you’ve joined us because you’re going to share a tough story with us, but I know it’s going to be really beneficial to a lot of people. So, just for listeners’ notes, we are recording this in April, 2022. I’m planning to publish this in early 2023, but we are talking about events that started back in 2018, I believe. And so, Matty, tell us like for tax years 2018, and then I think you did the same thing again in 2019: How were you funded during those years? And like how did you prepare your tax return in those years?

04:56 Matty: Sure. So, in 2018 and 2019, I was on a university fellowship, so through my university, through Princeton. And in part of 2019 I was on what was called an assistantship, which was a bit different because I was a teaching assistant or a preceptor as we call them there. So, there was a W-2 tax form generated for this income, the assistantship income, that is. Whereas for the general university fellowship, there was no tax withholding, there was no W-2 form. And I also earned some side income in some of those other hobbies I referenced at the time. So, that was what comprised my income during those years.

05:35 Emily: So, I understand there was no tax withholding on the, what I call this awarded income, this like non-W-2 fellowship/stipend/training grant. There are different words for it, but I call it awarded income if it’s not reported on a W-2. You said that there was not any tax withholding, but did it show up anywhere? Did it show up on a 1098-T? Did it show up on a 1099? Anywhere?

05:54 Matty: Nowhere.

05:55 Emily: Okay. So, no tax reporting whatsoever. This is actually a pretty common approach, and it’s frustrating, but anyway, go on. How did you prepare your tax return?

06:05 Matty: <Laugh>, I should maybe say quickly before I say this kind of in general about this story, I’ll be very honest and upfront to the point where it may be a little bit embarrassing <laugh> for me, looking back at how I handled this throughout these years. But anyway, so here it goes.

06:21 Emily: The listeners are with you, don’t worry. A lot of people are in the same situation. I was, too, when I was early on in grad school.

06:29 Matty: Alright. So, I prepared the tax return myself primarily during these years using online software that was sort of available, like file your taxes, free filing, et cetera. I also didn’t pay estimated quarterly taxes during these years, even though I should have. And so, I essentially treated this, I used the filing software to kind of generate a lump sum number for the awarded income that I would then pay around the time I filed my taxes. So, obviously, this was not the right way to do this for a number of reasons, but it’s what I did for 2018, for 2019, and what I was doing for 2020 until I realized that there was a problem. And the last thing I’ll say about this is that I reported, and this will get into what the bigger problem was, that I reported my fellowship income as other income on the tax return. And so, this is what was going to lead to big problems for me down the road.

07:28 Emily: I have to say, Matty, that I did the exact same thing when I was in my first few years of graduate school. My university, Duke, does things a little bit differently because at that time they did withhold income tax from my awarded income stipend. But they issued a form 1099-miscellaneous [MISC] with Box 3 income. And so, if you look at like the instructions, like you didn’t get instructions right because you didn’t get a form. So, good on you for even like knowing that this was even taxable income. So, actually you did something right from the beginning, which was reporting it <laugh> even though you reported it slightly incorrectly. Like if you look at the instructions for what I was dealing with, it says report it as other income if it’s not self-employment income, which this wasn’t. So, I did that. And it turns out that was wrong. For me, it didn’t get caught in the same way that yours did probably because of how it was reported. So, I didn’t have the same outcome, but I started down the same path that you did. So, you are definitely not alone. I still talk to people to this day who have read my materials and are asking me, do I report this as other income? The answer is no, and we will see why.

IRS Notices During COVID

08:30 Emily: Okay. So, you know, you sort of mentioned that you figured out when you are going to file your 2020 tax returns, so that’s early 2021, right? That, you know, these errors had gone on. But let’s back it up and talk about what was happening from the IRS’s perspective. So, the IRS receives your 2018 year, 2019 returns, they see this other income. What are they thinking, and what are they trying to do to reach out to you?

08:53 Matty: So, the IRS is beginning to send me notices from, I guess it was around actually the summer of 2020, that the IRS began sending notices about my 2018 tax year. And, the thing was, I received none of the notices. This was also going to be a big part of the story. The reason for that, there are really two reasons. The first is that I had moved out of my Princeton graduate apartment abruptly at the start of COVID in March of 2020. And so, I was living in Massachusetts with my family, my sister, and her fiance, just kind of waiting out early COVID, not sure what was going to happen. I didn’t think to change my address on file with the IRS at that time, which in my slight defense I think was a reasonable thing to not think of.

09:45 Matty: The second problem though, which also gets back to another important part of why those tax filing softwares aren’t great if you don’t use them in the right way, is that the IRS didn’t even have my correct apartment number because I had typed it in correctly on the website, which I was able to go back and check, but that website generates a 1040 tax return form, which I didn’t look at before I submitted it and it cut off my apartment number. So, it said I lived at apartment 40 and not 405. So, even though after I left Princeton, I had, you know, set up a mail service through the USPS, who I don’t even know if that worked <laugh> to forward mail at home. And had I been at Princeton, you know, I know the building manager, they may have seen the letter and kept it aside for me, but in any case, not having the right address on my file did no benefits for me as the situation went on.

10:41 Matty: So, basically, yeah, from the IRS perspective, I didn’t respond to months of deficiency notices regarding 2018. And so eventually after not hearing from me, they just assessed a bill on my IRS online account for basically $7,500 in underpayments, penalties, and then fees, interest rather, associated with the non-paid taxes, which I didn’t discover until preparing my 2020 tax return in May of 2021 because it was a bit delayed during that year. Because of COVID, you could do it in May. And I saw this charge on my online account and obviously was very thrown off and surprised by that.

11:23 Emily: Okay, so in a second, I want to get to why this massive charge existed because again, you had paid what you thought was your income tax, you know, or in those earlier years. But first, I just want to take a little sidebar to tell you that I had a very similar experience with the Virginia Department of Taxation. So, state-level taxes. I moved from Virginia to North Carolina when I started graduate school. So, I was like a part-year resident in each state for that year. And for whatever reason in the next year, Virginia decided that I owed them income tax even though I was paying tax in North Carolina. And I had been a part-year resident the year before, which they supposedly should have known, but they could not track me down because I had moved multiple times near graduate school. I did not set up mail forwarding, which you were like, that’s great that you even thought of it.

12:10 Emily: I did not do that. I also got married and I changed my name. So like, they could not find me to like assess me what they thought was their tax bill. So, ultimately, that bill went to collections and I like freaked out when, this was like years later, they finally sent to collections. The collections agency immediately found me because guess what? They use things like your phone number, which the IRS does not do. The IRS will strictly only use mailing addresses. And so, anyway, the collections company found me and I was able to quickly figure out that this was just a completely like fabricated bill. Like I had no responsibility for this, and it was very easy to get it cleared up, but it really freaked me out when it happened because like, I’m supposed to be like this responsible financial person and I’m like sent to collections over something.

Incorrect Characterization of Fellowship Income

12:51 Emily: Like it’s really, anyway, I just think it’s not great that in the, you know, era that we’re in with all these other modes of communication that we have that they still rely on physical mailing addresses, but they do. That’s the policy. So, you know, we have to deal with it. So like, good on you for setting up mail forwarding <laugh>. Too bad that the address was actually wrong and blah, blah, blah, all these other problems. So, that’s my sidebar. What I want to ask you about though is, so why did the IRS think that you owed this massive tax bill?

13:19 Matty: So, this goes back to how I had characterized the fellowship income. So, actually in reality there were a few problems with the tax return for 2018, even apart from the address. But the major one, and the thing that I think raised the attention of the IRS, was the fact that I had reported this as other income, which they thought that I needed to pay self-employment taxes on. And this self-employment tax assessment was not a part of the number, the lump sum number I generated from those filing tax softwares. That was something separate that I was going to have to figure out on my own. And so, this is what led them to send the initial deficiency notice, which again, I didn’t receive, but based on the kind of the timeline, I think I figured out, would’ve come in the summer of 2020 to Princeton, with an underpayment of about $5,500 that they thought that I owed in self-employment and hadn’t paid.

14:17 Matty: And then the penalty, which was in part a function of by how much I’d underpaid, I would think it was an $1,100 penalty because I had underpaid by over $5,000 and then interest on that. So, that’s what they were really after. And if I can just add, so I’ve sort of referenced this already, but I realized I had, you know, this was after I had filed taxes for 2019, a long time before. So I knew I had the same problem for that income that I had done in the same way. And I guess we’ll maybe get into this in the next question, I don’t want to jump ahead, but just to say the low point was that in June of 2021, I started receiving notices about the 2019 tax year for about the same amount. So at one point, the Internal Revenue Service thought that I owed them about $16,000 between taxes, penalties and interest. So, that was kind of the low moment, but yeah, I hope I didn’t anticipate <laugh> your later questions there.

15:23 Emily: No, that’s horrifying for a grad student, that’s what, like 50% ish of your income for the year?

15:30 Matty: Yes.

Did You Know This Was a Mistake?

15:31 Emily: So, was there ever a point that you thought maybe they were right? Or did you know from the beginning that this was a mistake?

15:38 Matty: So, I didn’t know from the beginning that this was a mistake because I didn’t really understand how this works. I didn’t have the vocabulary to understand it. This also maybe gets into a bit where I found your site helpful and maybe I’ll say a bit more about that in a minute, but it was not really understanding it. And so this week in May of 2021, as I’m realizing that I have this charge from 2018, I’m preparing the 2020 tax return, wondering what went wrong and how to do things the right way, that I began to realize about this sort of other income question about really the specific nature of how to manage these sort of awarded income from university fellowships that don’t generate any documentation associated with them. What I will say is that I did very early in the process reach out first to my parents and then to my parents’ accountant who was, I’m sure that she’s very competent, was very nice, but didn’t have experience with this and actually thought that I did owe them that money.

16:44 Matty: And so, I was actually encouraged by a tax professional to pay the money, and then she was going help me draft a letter to try to get the penalties minimized because it was my first mistake. But around the same time I’m reading the IRS site, I’m finding your website, Emily, and even though I feel like am I being too, you know, is this hubristic of me to think that I know more than the tax professional, but I really sensed that no, this really was a mistake in how I characterized the income. I don’t actually owe it. But it was an open question for a few days whether I was right or not. And then obviously a separate question as to whether the IRS was actually going to agree that I was right or not.

17:26 Emily: Absolutely. I think it is so hard for graduate students and postdocs and anybody with this like weird academic income, as you said, to kind of like challenge or like stand up to or like correct someone who you’re paying <laugh> to help you with this process. Like who’s supposed to be an expert, but like, yeah, the fact is that they may not deal with these types of taxes very often. They may like, whatever, like you said, they’re very nice. They’re probably very competent in many areas. Like for example, small business taxes is probably what she’s much more familiar with than fellowship income. And so she was going down a route of like, oh yeah, this was self-employment income and oh yeah, these are correct, you know, charges, but like we can get the penalty blah blah. That’s a fine thing if like, the whole thing was right from the beginning, but it wasn’t. So, I would love to hear more about how you like discovered and then worked with the IRS, like to clarify for them that this was actually fellowship income that you should have never even thought to report as like other income that, you know, we just went off the rails from the start with that reporting like type.

18:28 Matty: Yeah. Yeah. So, what I was able to find out right away once I saw the charge on my account online was I could download the transcripts and records of accounts from 2018. Because remember at this point I still had received no notices about it. This is just me logging on very casually one night in May of 2021 to see if I got a stimulus payment in 2020 that I had missed. So, that 2018 tax record or record of account and transcript, which you can I think normally download from past tax years, helped me to see what was actually at issue and to see why the IRS had labeled what they had as penalties. What I then did, the good piece of advice I got from the accountant was to call the IRS either late in the day or early in the morning to try to get through and talk to someone, which I did.

19:23 Matty: And for anyone who’s called the IRS, and I would do this many times over the succeeding several months, it’s quite an experience. You know, sometimes you get people who are very helpful and knowledgeable, sometimes you don’t. Sometimes it takes a long time. Again, I was still at the stage where I was learning about this and like figuring it out. And so again, it’s difficult sometimes you don’t understand what people are telling back to you. But eventually what happened through a few phone calls in the days after I made the initial discovery was I talked to an IRS agent who basically told me that I could fax, he gave me a fax number, and said I could fax an explanation of my situation to what he called the reconsideration department, which sounded like 1984, kind of scary style instructions. But that was the first time that I talked to someone where there was a kind of glimmer of, okay, maybe there is going to be some potential light at the end of this tunnel.

20:24 Matty: So it was, in talking to those agents, I came to realize a number of the mistakes, which I’ve already communicated to you and began to see a way out of beginning to resolve the 2018 tax issue. I was also though a bit uncertain whether I should also talk to them about 2019, if that would just be confusing. Was that going to be bad for me in some way? I was almost treating it as though, I mean, I don’t have much experience like with lawyers or with like a criminal case or something, but as though I didn’t really know how to best talk to the IRS about some of these issues. And yeah, but I guess that first piece of advice was the beginning of the rest of the story.

Commercial

21:11 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is about to start heating up, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my tax resources, many of which I have updated for tax year 2022. On that page you will find free podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. The absolute most comprehensive and highest quality resources, however, are my asynchronous tax workshops. I’m offering three tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022, one for grad students who are U.S. citizens or residents, one for postdocs who are U.S. citizens or residents, and one for grad students and postdocs who are non-residents.

22:19 Emily: Those tax return preparation workshops are in addition to my estimated tax workshop for grad student, postdoc, and postbac fellows who are U.S. citizens or residents. My preferred method for enrolling you in one of these workshops is to find a sponsor at your university or institute. Typically that sponsor is a graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, postdoc association, or an individual school or department. I would very much appreciate you recommending one or more of these workshops to a potential sponsor. If that doesn’t work out, I do sell these workshops to individuals, but I think it’s always worth trying to get it into your hands for free or a subsidized cost. Again, you can find all of these free and paid resources, including a page you can send to a potential workshop sponsor, linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Helpful Advice: Finding the PF for PhDs Tax Workshop

23:20 Emily: So, let’s continue then. So, how did you ultimately figure out that, you know, you should have explicitly communicated this as being fellowship income, and that that miscommunication was at the root of all these other issues?

23:34 Matty: So, I think this is really where your website and especially your workshop on the, I forget the specific title, like filing a grad student tax return and understand it too. Something like that.

23:47 Emily: Yeah, it’s How to Complete your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!). If anyone wants to find it, you can go to PFforPhDs.com/taxworkshop. I will have the 2022, presumably, version of that available by the time this comes out. So, yes, go on.

24:03 Matty: Yeah, so I, you know, I think I had maybe found on the IRS website some information about this as I was looking around, but the clearest statement of and the most focused advice for graduate students in the situation that I was facing at least, I mean, not so much, you know, when you’re two years behind the ball and facing what I was facing with the IRS, but with just filing a tax return in general–because I still needed to do the 2020 one at that time–was through your website. And so that’s, I think when it became clearest to me about this other income that this was what sort of my problem had been and finding the steps that I would need to do in order to to do the 2020 return, right?

24:56 Matty: And then also in the communications that I was to have with the IRS, by faxing them info about 2018, how I should sort of write my statement explaining what had happened. So, I think that workshop was, I mean, it was helpful on its face for just filing a sort of a normal tax return and understanding what you’re doing, but it also helped me to find the words to explain to the IRS in writing and then, which I also then backed up with other documentation that I faxed along with it, related to the 2018 issue.

25:32 Emily: So, it is interesting to me that you found the workshop. And as you said, the workshop is great for like preparing your this year’s current year’s tax return. It’s not designed to like ameliorate past issues, as you said, I’m <laugh> I’ll actually link in the show notes. It sounds like you maybe didn’t find this through a Google search, but my old personal finance website, which is evolvingpf.com, I actually published a couple of posts from people who had been in your exact same situation. They had reported their fellowship income as other income, the IRS thought it was self-employment, and I actually published their accounts as well, like we’re doing here on the podcast, of how they fixed the issue. And like even they included the text of the letter that they sent to the IRS. Would you actually be willing to share like an anonymized version of the letter that you sent, or is that too much information?

26:20 Matty: No, no. Yeah, I’d be willing to do that.

26:22 Emily: Okay. So, we’ll set that up in the show notes. So, by the time this is published, we’ll have that all ready to go. So anybody else who finds this podcast episode later and is in the same situation, can at least not have to repeat all this research that you did and like have sort of a model to go off of, as you said, to have even the language to explain to the IRS. It’s funny because when you’re filing a fresh tax return, you can just sort of report your taxable fellowship number on your tax return, and the IRS you know, in whatever, 99.999 cases is not going to come back to you and say, “Wait, was this really fellowship income? Blah, blah, blah.” But once you go down your route of you have misreported in some way and they’re suspicious about it, then you have to back it up with documentation. Like you probably sent in your award letter, I would imagine, that like uses the word fellowship. Yeah, go ahead and talk about that.

27:04 Matty: Yeah, yeah, no, so I did, I mean again, at that stage too, I was just trying to gather as much information that would be potentially helpful or would, you know, show that I was kind of legit in the case that I was making. So, I probably sent way more than they <laugh> needed or cared to look at. But I think I did include the award letter and then even maybe like, not a pay stub, but some kind of like summary of, you know, year-end summary that showed at least that I was receiving income from Princeton University as a PhD student. Yeah.

Patiently Waiting for 2018 Tax Year Resolution

27:47 Emily: Yeah. And so, did all of that like fix the issue? I understand this took several months, played out, but like this ultimately was effective. Yes. So like what was the final outcome?

27:56 Matty: Yeah, so actually maybe first, let me just say, so this was all, that initial fax was all about the 2018 tax year. But meanwhile, I knew I had this 2019 problem. I felt good about the 2020 return that I was doing, because again, I had used your website and your workshop and felt like I knew what I was doing for the first time. But for 2019, in speaking with, I’d also reached out to someone at H&R Block, local to Princeton. And their advice was basically to file an amended return for 2019 to try to anticipate if the IRS is going to probably come after me for that year because they’ll think I made the same mistake, to anticipate that by filing an amended return. That was one advice. The second piece of advice was then for me to figure out if I thought I owed anything to the IRS from those years to pay it as basically right away or as soon as I could.

28:56 Matty: And so, I did both of those things for 2018 and for 2019 and, in fact, I thought I calculated that I did underpay in fact, by a few hundred dollars. And so, paid that, basically. So, by the end of May or maybe early June, I was, from my perspective, totally paid up. I didn’t know what they were going to do in terms of penalties and how that was going to work. And then for 2019, I submitted an amended return, which you can follow online, how it’s being processed and you know, it’s supposed to take, I think six to eight weeks, and it was so delayed because of COVID. So, I never even got word that it was received. I was worrying, I sent it in by sort of USPS. I was worried I didn’t put enough stamps on the package.

29:43 Matty: Like just these kind of silly administrative things that hang over you as you wonder and hear nothing about it. But anyway, so at this point then I had 2018, all the faxed information, and then 2019, the amended return. And it’s pretty amazing. I sent all that in May, and I heard nothing from the IRS about the 2018 fax from May 12th until Valentine’s Day of 2022. So, nine months. I had heard every three months I would get a letter from them saying, “Hi, we’ve received your information, which was reassuring, but we’re very busy, we’ll get to it as soon as we can.” Meanwhile, though, so this is the reconsideration department. The collections department is saying, “Hey, we’re going to file a lien or levy against your assets,” because from their perspective, this was a case open and closed, and I didn’t pay it, I didn’t challenge it, I didn’t respond.

30:35 Matty: So, they are not being as let’s say generous, that’s not the right word. Like the other side, the reconsideration department can take as much time as they need to process it. The collections department is not giving me that option, even as I explained to them what’s going on. But they’re saying, well, how do we know you have a legitimate case? Which from their perspective, it’s understandable why they would take that position. So, as this is playing out and I’m hearing nothing and just waiting, which is really the dominant part of the story, it’s the waiting in between this really frantic week in May until February to begin to hear stuff about anything actually occurring with my cases. It was being in touch with the collections department who actually I mean, they didn’t force me to, but I was highly encouraged to sign a payment agreement with them to agree to pay the 2018 taxes with the understanding that once they got to my case, if it turned out that I had, you know, paid them any more than I needed to, they would refund me the money.

31:44 Matty: And because I was nervous about what might happen, I mean, I don’t have a ton of assets <laugh>, I just didn’t know what was going to happen the longer that I was getting these sort of scary notices, final notices, and that they’re going to go after me. So, that was sort of a long-winded answer. But the major process was again, waiting, hoping the reconsideration department and amended tax return will be processed, and in the meantime, as the clock is ticking, beginning to get more notices about both years and about my needing to pay.

Agreeing to a 180-Day Payment Plan

32:18 Emily: So, ultimately, did you agree to a payment plan? Or did you hold out long enough that the reconsideration department got around to it?

32:25 Matty: So, I agreed to a 180-day, I guess I’ll be honest, I’m not entirely even sure how it was supposed to work. I agreed to, at the start of July of 2021, to a 180-day plan. And then at the end of that, I was then supposed to have made an agreement on how I was going to pay, which would include, you know, either a big lump sum or certain monthly payments. But when I made that agreement in July, I was thinking, okay, six months, like the reconsideration department is going to get it. I was so naive when I sent in that initial tax, I was like waiting the next day to get a phone call as though someone was just going to be there and call me. And so yeah, so July 1st, I do that. Six months, still not processed.

33:13 Matty: So, this is like right around Christmas now. So, I think the day after Christmas, I’m calling the IRS. Again, it’s intervening at all these different points throughout this last year of my life and making an agreement to pay them starting in February, $86 per month, until this thing is processed. Thankfully, the Valentine’s Day letter arrived and then it was in that letter where they made the adjustment to the taxes that I owed. And once they did that, the plan that I had agreed to pay was canceled, was sort of null. And yeah, so I received the February 14th letter, which reduces the tax burden by like $5,500, which is what I thought. It takes away the interest that I owed on that. It keeps, it doesn’t specify this, but it continues to say that I have like about $1,100 related to that tax year, which was the amount of the penalty.

34:11 Matty: So, I was wondering, okay, are they still keeping that penalty? Is that the right amount? Given that I didn’t underpay by as much as they thought. And so, I tried to get in touch with them over the phone, impossible. I’m like, I know how this goes, I’m just going to wait for the next notice. We’ll see. But then the ultimate resolution for 2018 came about a week later, which was I got a letter from the United States Treasury with a check <laugh> for $172 for the 2018 tax year. And then the next day, a notice from the IRS saying, we’ve adjusted totally for 2018. Like basically you’re closed out. We owed you $169 and $3 and 2 cents in interest. So, that was kind of how the 2018 resolution came about.

34:58 Emily: It’s amazing actually how much COVID impacted your story, right? From the move that made you not receive any of the notices, to the IRS being just incredibly backed up. Like I know the IRS gets, like, everybody loves to hate the IRS, but like they’ve had a lot to do <laugh> over the past couple of years, but like delayed deadlines and like the stimulus payments and then the advanced child tax credit payments, like that’s a whole new thing. Wow. Sending out like basic income to some people. They’ve never had to do that before. So like, yeah, it makes sense. They have been incredibly delayed. Maybe in a different year if COVID wasn’t impacting all of this, you would’ve gotten a response within a month or two or three months or whatever. Maybe the timelines would’ve worked out. But it’s good to know that you were patient <laugh>, you tried to get them to be as patient as possible with you. You agreed ultimately to that monthly plan, which is like, I mean, $86 a month is like not, I mean, whatever, it’s something, but compared to the amount that you actually owed, that’s a very small fraction. Or not actually owed, but they thought that you owed. Yeah.

Amended 2019 Tax Return

35:55 Emily: Okay. So, we know the 2018 resolution. For 2019, did the amended tax return work, or how did that play out?

36:02 Matty: No, so the 2019, they started sending me notices about it in June of 2021 before having processed the amended return. Which was obviously what I was trying to avoid, but in discussions then over the phone with the IRS, I was in a better position, I think, in terms of my discussions with them for being able to say, “Oh, I filed an amended return before you sent me this. I paid what I think I underpaid before you sent me this notice, and here’s all of the information.” And basically included, you know, sent a letter back to them, which included everything that I had on the amended return, and then how I came to those numbers. And so actually as we speak now, I’m still in the late stages of that. Yeah, so it was the same tax office dealing with the issue.

36:56 Matty: I think once they got to it, everything just kind of worked faster. So, it’s at the point now where the tax that I owe has been deducted for 2019, and I mean, unless something radical changes in the next few weeks, then I will have received either a check from the treasury for some kind of small amount, or maybe I’ll owe them a little bit more, something like this. But basically the same resolution of you listed the income as other income, you didn’t need to pay self-employment taxes on that. So, that’s where the 2019 stands. And I’ve heard nothing about 2020, which I think means actually, I don’t know, maybe I’ll hear something soon, but I did follow the workshop and I know what I’m doing much more than I did at that time. So, I feel pretty good about that year.

37:46 Emily: Yeah. And by the time we publish this, I mean, you can send me an update, everything went fine, it was resolved, you know, essentially in your favor or, oh, no bigger emergency. Let’s record a follow-up <laugh>. Okay. So hopefully it’ll all go through the way you expect it to.

38:01 Emily: Emily here, breaking in from post-production to give you Matty’s follow-up. Everything turned out exactly as he expected for 2019. The penalty was eliminated, and he actually ended up receiving a small refund.

Key Takeaway Points for Listeners

38:14 Emily: So, let’s kind of summarize a little bit. Key takeaway points for the listener who might be freaked out and facing a huge tax bill. By the way, I just want to say like a rule of thumb, on fellowship income, let’s say if you’re paying to the federal government more than like, I don’t know, much more than like a 10% effective tax rate, something has gone awry in this like process. So like, self-employment tax is going to be 15.3% of your income. So, if you have like 10-ish percent plus 15%, if you’re up at 25% of an effective tax rate, you know that you’ve been hit with self-employment tax. So, that’s my key takeaway of just like a sort of sanity check on how much tax do you actually owe? Don’t pay self-employment tax if you don’t actually owe it. But let’s go to your key takeaways.

39:00 Matty: So, I think my key takeaways, one of them is the “(Understand It, Too!)” parenthetical in your workshop title, because when I think back to why I got into that situation in the first place and how I sort of struggled in those early days to figure out what the problem was, I think really one of the major issues was that my approach to filling out the tax return was I was looking for a formula to just kind of input information, not have to really think about it. And then kind of hoping that everything went well and figuring that, okay, if I don’t hear anything from them, then it’s probably fine. And I didn’t hear anything for two years after starting to handle my tax return this way. So, I guess one major kind of lesson would be to really try to understand what it is that you’re doing.

39:52 Matty: And it is frustrating and I would say that most places, most websites, even the IRS website is not especially well suited to starting at a low level of knowledge of financial issues. This was one of the things that I appreciated about your website, Emily, was because I felt that it was not just how to file the tax return, but it was sort of talking about it in a way for people who aren’t used to doing that. And I think this maybe gets back to my going straight through my not having really had another full-time job apart from being a graduate student, not having a familiarity with this process in another setting that made me want to just not deal with it. I was a busy graduate student, I just figured I would be fine and I wanted the easiest way, which was that tax filing software.

40:40 Matty: So, I think once you get over the fear of not understanding the confusing nature of sort of filing taxes and paying these kinds of taxes, then it became easier to know what the problem was and know how to communicate about it. And then the second one, maybe a smaller takeaway, but again, it was just to be sort of cautious about where you get and how you get tax advice from people who don’t have experience specifically related to the types of issues that graduate students with this awarded income are facing. Because I got advice from, you know, reputable people, reputable websites that led me to the filing software to, you know, almost not that I was close to paying the initial tax penalty as I had been initially recommended to, but I mean, that’s thousands of dollars of difference if I’d just gone along and done that.

41:35 Matty: So again, maybe that returns to the first point of if you sort of know or have a better sense of of what you’re doing with a tax return and treat it that way as opposed to just, again, a chore you don’t want to deal with, or a formula that you’re looking to kind of take a shortcut with. That’s the better way to handle it. And I’ll say, I mean, I’m not an expert. I don’t mean to sound now that I have gone through this as though I know and understand everything about taxes, but at least you kind of know a little bit more and you know where the problems are, you know how to communicate. And I think that was really important for me in reaching the stage that I have at this point with the tax process.

Building Tax Vocabulary and Communication Tools

42:21 Emily: I’m really, really glad to hear you say that, that my material reached you <laugh> in a way that made sense to you that other places weren’t, because that’s really what I have been striving to do with both, you know, what’s available free on my website, pfforphds.com/tax, and also through the tax workshops. I really do want to give you those, like the vocabulary and the communication tools because I’m sort of a fan of people preparing their own tax returns, like completely manually, but I understand that most people don’t do things that way. And so, I’m trying to give you the vocabulary to like translate between what you know about your own income and expenses as a graduate student, for example, and being able to talk to an accountant or being able to interface with tax software or talk to the IRS or whatever is needed to give you that like translation ability. Yes. So, I’m glad to hear that it worked out that way for you. Is there anything else that you’d like to tell us about this story as we’re concluding here?

43:13 Matty: I guess maybe to say, yeah, I hope this didn’t come off as, you know, me trying to sound like a victim of the IRS. I mean, I think there were some issues in terms of the timing, the way that it worked out, the really frustrating bureaucratic aspects of it. But I also, you know, I made some mistakes, too, throughout the process. And so yeah, I guess it was kind of yeah, I just hope it didn’t sound like me whining about the annoying, you know, scary IRS. There were some people that I talked to there who were quite helpful and, you know, I think the most important thing was just, as you said, kind of being able to find that language to communicate with them about the specific issues, and then kind of waiting out the process which you have to do when you’re dealing with something like this.

44:08 Emily: I think what we briefly mentioned earlier, but like we talked about this with respect to the accountant that you went to, but it’s also true for the people you talked to at the IRS. They’re way more familiar with self-employment income and small business income because there are so many small businesses in the United States who have, you know, some kind of trouble and turn to resources for filing their tax returns compared to graduate students and postdocs and other people with awarded income. It’s just such a more common situation. They want to fit you into a box, that’s what they’re familiar with. And so, you as a person receiving awarded income, I think should be kind of forewarned that that’s going to happen and be able to say to them, “No, I am very confident this is not contractor income. This is not self-employment income. I do not have a business. I received fellowship income or grant income or whatever it is.”

44:52 Emily: And so, to be able to firmly say that to them will help hopefully redirect them down the correct line of thinking and away from the most common scenario, which is this other self-employment stuff. So, I’m really glad that you brought that up. I also am glad that you mentioned that there is just a lot of waiting involved with these, you know, filling, you know, figuring out the transcripts and like submitting the amended returns and all of this stuff. Yeah, that’s kind of part and process with this whole process. So, we’re getting the very, very condensed version of the story, but obviously, it took like, well, it took multiple years for this to play out in total.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

45:23 Emily: Okay, Matty, thank you so much for sharing this story. It’s really amazing. I hope it, you know, prevents people from going down the same, you know, the initial mistake and then the amplification of that mistake that you had to go through. So, I want to leave the listener with the question that I always ask my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on in the course of this conversation, or it could be something completely new.

45:50 Matty: So, I’ll stick with a similar theme. I mean, part of me hardly feels in a position to offer financial advice after the story I told, but what I would say is that, and I think this is especially applicable maybe for PhD students, is that if you are learning about some kind of financial topic, taxes, things like this, that you should ask stupid questions if you don’t understand something. I think PhD students, I certainly am, are on guard against wanting to sound stupid in, you know, seminars around professors, you sort of keep to yourself, you hide the things that you don’t know and try to present yourself in as best a light as possible, which is understandable. I get that, but I don’t think it works well with dealing with some of these topics. And, you know, everyone says, well, there are no stupid questions or you’re probably not the only one with the question, which is probably true, but I would add that even if you are the only one with a question, and even if it is a stupid question, that it’s better to humble yourself at the stage of learning something than to risk kind of misunderstanding and creating a much bigger problem for yourself down the road.

47:00 Matty: So, I guess it’s a sort of maybe I wish that I’d had a little bit more humility to ask questions and rather than just go along and pretend that I understood something at different, you know, workshops about taxes or things that I had been privy to in the past to actually just ask. And, and from there, I would’ve been in a better position. So, that’s what I would say.

47:25 Emily: I really, really love that advice. And I’ll take one final opportunity to plug my workshop, How to Complete your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), PFforPhDs.com/taxworkshop. What I really like about this format, which it’s now like all these prerecorded videos, that’s probably the version that you went through as well, is that you can watch these videos as many times as you want. You can pause them, you can Google a term if I didn’t define it properly or whatever. You can take your time to really understand what’s going on. And then if you still have a question, show up at one of the many live Q&A calls that I hold for this workshop and just ask it there, because frankly, like asking me what you consider to be like a stupid question, I can probably answer it in like five seconds and it might take you an hour of reading other material to figure out what it is about your, like, misunderstanding at base that made you have that question.

48:14 Emily: So like, it’s just so much more time efficient <laugh> to enroll in something like my workshop and have access to me to ask those kinds of questions or, you know, whatever, work with another professional, that’s fine. But to just as you said, be willing to do it and have a person you can go to to ask those questions. That’s what I’m trying to provide with this tax workshop. So again, Matty, thank you so much for this interview. I think it’s been a harrowing story but really, really illuminating. I know it’s going to help a lot of people, because you are not alone, as you said. I made the same error, like it just didn’t get amplified in the same way yours did, but I made the same error. A lot of people make the same error. So thank you so, so much for sharing this.

48:50 Matty: Yeah, thank you so much for having me and again, for the work that you do with the podcast and the website. It was obviously extremely helpful to me and I’m sure it is to many others. So, thank you.

49:00 Emily: Yeah, thank you for saying that.

Outtro

49:07 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This First-Year PhD Student Prioritizes Investing While on Fellowship

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In this episode, Emily interviews Michele Remer, a first-year PhD student at Michigan State University, about her financial goals for graduate school. Michelle graduated in spring 2020 and worked a few different jobs during the pandemic, so she was able to generate some savings and open a Roth IRA prior to starting grad school. Thanks to a summer 2022 internship and one-time bonus on top of her ongoing fellowship, Michele is in a strong financial position at the start of graduate school. Michele shares her investing goals and values and why she’s considering buying a house hack in the spring. She also breaks down her budget and shows how she’s keeping her large, necessary expenses under about 40% of her gross income.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

S13E8 Image: This First-Year PhD Student Prioritizes Investing While on Fellowship

Teaser

00:00 Michele: And then I also was able to start my program during the summer and I did an internship in D.C. which, technically, I wouldn’t be allowed to do because you are only supposed to, you can’t work more than 10 hours a week with your fellowship at Michigan State. But because it was part of a class, I was able to overcome that requirement. So, I had money from my internship to like live on in D.C. and then I also had that like fellowship money that I could use for like saving and investing.

Introduction

00:38 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 8, and today my guest is Michele Remer, a first-year PhD student at Michigan State University. Michelle graduated in spring 2020 and worked a few different jobs during the pandemic, so she was able to generate some savings and open a Roth IRA prior to starting grad school. Thanks to a summer 2022 internship and one-time bonus on top of her ongoing fellowship, Michele is in a strong financial position at the start of graduate school. Michele shares her investing goals and values and why she’s considering buying a house hack in the spring. She also breaks down her budget and shows how she’s keeping her large, necessary expenses under about 40% of her gross income. By the way, we recorded this interview in late October 2022, and since its recording, there has been a lot of student loans news. As of November 27, 2022, the day I’m recording this, the $10k or $20k degree of cancellation that Michele and I discuss has been blocked by court challenges, which are likely to be resolved in the Supreme Court. Additionally, the administrative forbearance has been extended into summer 2023.

02:26 Emily: Speaking of the possibility of home ownership in 2023, Sam Hogan is now offering lunch-and-learn seminars on how graduate students and postdocs can purchase homes. Sam is a mortgage originator specializing in graduate students and PhDs, an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs, and my brother. He’s been a guest on this podcast numerous times, most recently Season 13 Episode 1. If you live in a city where graduate students and postdocs sometimes buy homes, please consider arranging for Sam to come to your campus for a lunch and learn on mortgages and the home-buying process. He’s put these on for a couple of groups this fall and has more booked the spring. He gives a short presentation and then answers questions about individual borrowing scenarios. Sam has done a ton to help grad students and postdocs with usual academic incomes like fellowships and summer pay gain access to mortgages so they can realize their dreams of home ownership. You can reach Sam about the possibility of coming to your campus—or with your own mortgage question—at [email protected] or 540-478-5803. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e8/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Michele Remer.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:03 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Michele Remer. She is a first-year graduate student at Michigan State University, and we are going to be talking today about kind of what her finances look like as a first-year graduate student and what her plans are for the future. So, Michele, it’s a delight to have you on. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

04:24 Michele: Of course. Thank you for having me by the way. So, as you said, I’m a first-year PhD student. I’m in the Fisheries and Wildlife Department at Michigan State. And I got my undergraduate degree from a small liberal arts college in Minnesota back in 2020. So, I’m a pandemic graduate. And then I was supposed to go into the Peace Corps but it ended up not working out due to the pandemic once again. So instead, I did some other seasonal jobs, which included AmeriCorps. I also want to preface this by saying that I have had some assistance from my parents for expenses in college and post-graduation as well.

05:03 Emily: Yeah, let’s talk about that more. So, it sounds like you had about two years between your graduation college and when you started graduate school. I’d love to learn more about those jobs that you did during that time and kind of what your finances looked like through that period.

05:17 Michele: Yeah, so my first, well I graduated 2020 and I still had my job through my university. It was a GIS job so I was able to do it remotely during the pandemic. So, I was just living at home with my parents and didn’t have any big expenses there, which was really nice. And then I got a job with AmeriCorps in a Conservation Corps out in western Utah. So, that’s where I went next. And that one was <laugh>. I was basically just breaking even for that job because it was volunteer and it was also a pretty low like stipend that we received. But I was able to get free housing, and they gave us like a free tent. I just had to provide the gear and a plane ticket. So, I think it worked out pretty well for me, especially because with the pandemic I was getting stir crazy in my house so I welcomed the opportunity to go somewhere new during that. When everyone else was kind of stuck inside. I was able to be out in the woods and <laugh> doing conservation projects.

06:26 Emily: And was it like a full year? Was it a full year that you were with AmeriCorps?

06:30 Michele: So, this was about seven months was my term. And then also for AmeriCorps, you get, they call it education award. That’s what it’s called. So, I got about $3,000 for my education that I was able to put towards my student loans.

06:47 Emily: Oh nice. That’s a good flexible usage.

Money Mindset Coming Into Grad School

06:52 Emily: Okay, so we’ve had I think one previous guest who was in AmeriCorps, if we can find the episode, it’ll be in the show notes. But I’m very interested in like your mindset I guess going into graduate school, having just had that AmeriCorps experience. Because I know that, I mean as much as graduate student stipends need to be higher, AmeriCorps is like whoa, you are really, as you said, it’s kind of a volunteer position that they basically just kind of give you housing and food money, right? So, can you talk about yeah, your mindset coming into graduate school, having had that experience with respect to your finances?

07:25 Michele: Yeah, I think it was actually really helpful for me personally because, so my undergrad, it was a residential school so like all of my food and stuff was like at a cafeteria and everything and included. And with this job, I like had to like cook dinner and everything. And so, that really taught me how to like meal prep and just like living on such a low wage, I was able to be really smart about like how I was handling my groceries and everything. And then like while we were on project, like, so we would work eight days and then we would get six days off. So for those eight days they provided all the food. So basically you were just like, didn’t have any expenses for eight days of the week and then, or eight days at a time and then six days you would have expenses, but we were able to like also have leftover food from that. So, it was this kind of like, and I also don’t really buy a lot of other things. Like I still to this day I basically just buy food and that’s my only other expense besides like housing with like occasional other like luxuries now that I have some more money. But yeah, so I think it was a challenge but it actually kind of set me up well for grad school.

Stipend at Michigan State

08:42 Emily: Yeah, very interesting. So, give us a picture of your finances when you started at Michigan State. So like, you know, did you have any assets? Did you, you already mentioned student loans, maybe you had other liabilities as well. And also what is your stipend at Michigan State?

08:57 Michele: Yeah, so my stipend first of all is $30,000. And I also got pretty lucky too because I got a $5,000 fellowship for getting accepted into the environmental science and policy program here. So, I can kind of lump that on top. And then I also was able to start my program during the summer and I did an internship in D.C. which, technically, I wouldn’t be allowed to do because you are only supposed to, you can’t work more than 10 hours a week with your fellowship at Michigan State. But because it was part of a class, I was able to overcome that requirement. So, I had money from my internship to like live on in D.C. and then I also had that like fellowship money that I could use for like saving and investing.

09:51 Emily: So, am I understanding that you were being double-paid during that time? You were receiving your fellowship and your internship pay?

09:58 Michele: Yeah, I was. The reason why like we decided to do the fellowship. Like I was talking to the administrators about this and everything and the class, because technically, the internship was part of a course. And so there was like a $2,600 tuition fee that I would’ve had to pay if I was just doing the internship. So this way the fellowship, because the fellowship also covers my tuition. So, in this way it covered my tuition and then I also was able to receive the money, the stipend money with that.

10:29 Emily: Nice. It sounds amazing. And that $5,000 that you mentioned, so your sort of baseline, standard stipend on the fellowship is $30,000 per year. Did you get that $5,000 as like a lump, it’s kind of like a bonus, like a lump sum at the start, is that right?

10:42 Michele: Yeah, it’s supposed to be a lump sum. I actually haven’t received it yet, but yeah, I think that’s just going to be like a lump sum to my account once they process it.

Finances: Assets and Liabilities

10:52 Emily: Okay. This is great. I so wish that more or all graduate students could get started with like, hey here’s some money just like for you to have for savings because you’re probably going to need this down the line. Because the stipend is really not, you know, necessarily enough to generate a decent savings rate, although, you know, we’ll get to yours and what your plans are with that. So let’s, if you don’t mind, could we share some numbers, like what assets did you have at the start of graduate school? What liabilities did you have?

11:16 Michele: Yeah, so I think I came in, so the AmeriCorps job that I had, I finished that. I did that right after college. So, I took another seasonal job where I was able to minimize my expenses a lot more and then I had another part-time job before starting. And I think the best thing that allowed me to build up savings was that I like basically reduced my housing expense. Like every time I got a new job it was either like free or it was like max $300 a month. So, I was doing really well in that area. So then I was able to, I had about $6,000 in my Roth coming in to grad school. And then I also have, let’s see, I guess for my other assets I just have like, oh I also just put in $2,000 into I-bonds too for my student loans after I graduate.

12:11 Michele: And then I also have some other savings just from, because I was saving up more money to pay off my loans as well. But now with the pandemic or the student loan forgiveness, I should be sitting in a much better place because after my education award using that and then the 10 grand that I’ll get from student loan forgiveness, I’ll be in a really good spot. And so, now that’s freed up a lot more money that I was going to put towards my loans because I’m super debt-averse, so I had saved up all this money to pay off my debt right away.

12:45 Emily: I see. I want to talk more about the student loans in just a second, but you don’t have any other debt, I would take it then, aside from the student loans?

12:52 Michele: No, no. Like I have a car, but it’s paid off. And yeah that was my only other sort of I guess liability since I don’t have a home or anything.

13:05 Emily: Yeah. Okay. So I want to point out for the listeners that we were recording this in October, 2022. So by the time this comes out, I’m hoping that people will have received the cancellation but as of the time that we’re talking, I don’t think anyone has started to receive it yet, although the application is open. So yeah, hopefully in the coming months. Did you already apply Michele?

13:24 Michele: Yeah, I did. I signed up for the email alerts. I was one of the first people, I think.

13:28 Emily: Okay, perfect. So, your cancellation amount hopefully will come through before the end of 2022 is the idea I think. Yeah. And so, and the rest of your student loans, the ones that weren’t being taken care of by these other sources, are they just going to be in deferment during graduate school? Or are you going to work on paying it down?

13:43 Michele: Yeah, I only took out subsidized loans, so they’ll be in deferment.

13:48 Emily: Okay, perfect. Yeah, for anyone listening, subsidized loans, well, if they’re in deferment you’re not going to make payments, and then if they’re subsidized the government pays the interest on your behalf so they won’t start accruing interest until when you come out of deferment, presumably after you graduate. And it’ll be pretty easy to hopefully take care of them at that point. So, that sounds awesome.

Making Investing a Priority

14:04 Emily: Okay, so you have some savings, you have started your Roth IRA, you bought some I-bonds, that’s great. So, let’s talk more about this investing situation. I understand you want to continue investing during graduate school. Why are you making that a priority?

14:18 Michele: Yeah, I think it’s a priority for me because I want to have the flexibility to take whatever jobs I want. And so, like with the AmeriCorps thing, I was able to take that job because, well for one, the student loan payments were on pause and it was kind of just like a good opportunity for that point in my life. But I also want to be able to take other opportunities that may not pay me as much because I’m really passionate about doing like environmental jobs that sometimes you don’t really get that high of a salary for. And so, I just want to make sure that I’m in a good financial spot in order to take those positions that I want.

14:58 Emily: So, is the idea that you’re going to start saving and investing for retirement now because perhaps at some later points in your life your salary won’t be really necessarily much higher than it is now? Or is it to be building up assets so that later you don’t have the pressure as much of having to save, you know, so much for retirement later on? It could be both, but I’m curious about your decision-making here.

15:21 Michele: I would say it’s both. I think, too, just everything I’ve read about personal finances, it’s time in the market over timing the market, and so I wanted to start as soon as possible so that I don’t have to worry about like starting after grad school. And like maybe if I don’t get a very high-paying job and I still like can’t contribute as much as I want to, this starting early allows me to have much more time to like accrue interest and just a bigger retirement savings account and that also would let me be more flexible in case I need to take like a career break of some kind or anything like that.

16:04 Emily: Yeah, I have to say, like so I’m 37 now, I’ve been out of graduate school for eight years about, and this is really like I can already see this playing out in my own life because I did start saving into a Roth IRA or investing when I was like 22, right out of college. And it’s really like because of some other stuff going on in like my and my husband’s financial life, like we, you know, saved diligently during graduate school. It was never, I’d never even maxed out my IRA so it wasn’t even like a large dollar amount, but for a graduate student it was a lot. And that portion of our portfolio in the time since then, like it’s a really big portion of our portfolio even though we have started since buying our house like last year we’ve really ramped up our retirement contributions because we no longer had like the down payment savings to be considering. But it’s like still amazing how much of our portfolio has just been those long time ago contributions that have had plenty of time to compound. And even though we’re saving a lot right now, and in the decades to come, like it’s still going to be a huge part of our portfolio despite being you know, dollar amount-wise not that much in contribution. So, I really commend you for getting started with this early. Is it your goal to max out every year? Like what number have you put around how much you’re going to contribute?

17:19 Michele: Yeah, I’m already maxing out every year so I put in $500 a month automatically so that I don’t have to like worry about forgetting doing it. And then I also am planning on increasing next year since they just announced that it’s going to be $6,500 instead of $6,000.

Getting Started with Investing

17:39 Emily: And many of the listeners who are, you know, considering getting started with investing or trying to get started now might be curious like how did you exactly get started? Like where did you choose to house your money and you know, what do you invest in? Obviously you’re not giving anyone advice but just like the path that you took.

17:54 Michele: Yeah, so for me I really wanted to make sure that I was going to be investing in funds that I believed in, like ethical investing for me. So, to do that I chose Fidelity as my I guess like taxable or tax advantaged account that I wanted to use. I’ve since learned that Vanguard has lower cost like target date funds if you’re interested in those. But I think Fidelity is a good one for graduate students because they have more fractional investing so you can invest with as little as like $10 a month, but for Vanguard you need to have I think a minimum of a thousand. So that’s why I chose Fidelity. And then as for the funds, I just chose ones that were offered by Fidelity because that those have lower expense ratios. And then also I chose environmental funds so there’s like, they have a US Sustainability Index Fund, International Sustainability Fund and then an Alternative Energy Fund. Plus some other ones. I got a little trigger happy when I was first starting out but yeah.

19:06 Emily: Okay. It sounds like though, are you like a hundred percent in equities with this with your IRA investments?

19:13 Michele: Yeah, so I have mostly stock funds right now since I’m still pretty young and I can afford to be more aggressive. I do have one bond fund which I’ve learned as I’ve been researching more that you want to have more bond funds in your Roth IRA cause it’s a tax managed account and so if I start a taxable brokerage account then I’ll switch to more stocks in that one.

19:38 Emily: Yes, this is asset location optimization, this is a really advanced strategy. But just in case anyone, any listener doesn’t want to put as much thought <laugh> as Michele has into this process, I mean it’s great to put thought into it but if you just want to get started and don’t have the time right now, whatever you choose, as long as it’s like broadly pretty appropriate, like you were just saying. Largely stocks, you know because you’re just starting out and you have a long timeline to retirement. What’s most important at this point is just to get started. And your exact asset allocation and everything, you can figure that out down the line. Because right now, the way that your portfolio is growing is mostly by your contributions <laugh> later on, you know, a couple decades from now, it’s mostly going to be growing because of the compounding interest. But for now, it’s really your contribution. So even if you’re not like a hundred percent the most optimized in what you’ve chosen, it’s okay. It’s really the thing is just to get started and to get that nice savings rate going like Michele has with her, you know, $500 per month current target. So, that sounds awesome. And are you also doing any other kinds of investing outside of your Roth IRA?

Investing Outside of Roth IRA

20:46 Michele: Yeah, so right now, like I said before, I have the I-bonds. So, my goal is to have about I think maybe like $4,000 in I-bonds so that hopefully the interest will accrue enough that when I graduate I can take those out and pay for the rest of my student loans. And then I’m also looking into doing a taxable brokerage account but I’m still exploring that because I’m still figuring out how the taxes would work on that.

21:17 Emily: Sure. Would that also be for long-term investing like for retirement? Or would it be maybe for like a shorter-term goal? Nearer-term goal?

21:24 Michele: I think that would be a longer-term goal just because I don’t want to have to worry about like taking it out and losing money because I didn’t like pick the right investment. So, I would rather leave it in there for retirement.

21:39 Emily: You’re actually taking a fairly similar approach to what my husband and I did when we started graduate school. We, as I said, we had our Roth IRA investments going at a certain rate. And then we also, I had student loans as well that were subsidized during graduate school. And so, initially I was just like, okay, forget about those. Like I don’t even need to think about those. Not like you’re doing, you’re planning from the beginning but at some point along the way in graduate school I realized, oh it would be nice to have money set aside to pay this off once they come out of deferment. And so, that became a goal as well for us. And then we also opened a taxable brokerage account. So, lots of different kind of layers to this.

Union Efforts to Obtain 403(b)

22:13 Emily: Okay. Is there anything else you want to share about your investments?

22:17 Michele: I guess I also want to, I’m part of the union here on campus now. I’m like our department representative, and one thing that I want to work with them on is getting a 403(b) account for grad students at Michigan State. Because I know that there are some other schools, a lot of schools don’t have them for grad students, but there are schools that do and I think that that would be something that would be really beneficial, not only for the grad students but also for the university to attract more people to come there. So, I think that that’s something that we could work on together to hopefully achieve <laugh>.

22:56 Emily: Yeah, that would be really exciting. I definitely want to hear an update from you about that. I mean I hope you’re successful certainly, but even if you’re not, I would love to know why like what their reasons are for, you know, not including graduate students. Because as you said, in very few places graduate students are included, and I don’t really know why they would bother like excluding them really.

23:16 Michele: Yeah, I could see maybe like, I know that the ones I’ve been looking at, they don’t provide a match. But I think they already have like a 403(b) set up for like employees. So, I think just like allowing grad students to open an account even if you don’t do a match, I think it would still, I think that would be pretty easy to do, but I don’t know. I haven’t looked into it super far yet.

23:38 Emily: A match would be, I would be shocked if I ever <laugh> Yeah. If I ever saw a match for a graduate student. Even postdocs oftentimes don’t get matches. Some of them do, especially if they’re like state employees. But yeah just the first step of like, because when I read these like plans and so forth, because I often do this with schools that I give seminars at. I’ll go into and just do a little check and see if students might have the opportunity to contribute to a 403(b). And most of them say explicitly students cannot contribute or you have to have at least a 50% appointment and they, you know, put all the students at 0.49% appointments. They have these kinds of like workarounds to specifically exclude graduate students. But why? I don’t know, is it just an administrative burden for them? I really don’t know why because I’m sure there wouldn’t be that many graduate students who would, you know, elect to use it even if they had the option. Although even just, I mean psychologically, just knowing that you had the option would actually help, I think. Students start thinking about, oh is retirement something I should be preparing for in this stage of my life? So, I love this idea, and I really want to hear an update about it.

24:41 Michele: Yeah, I think that would also maybe help like with negotiations for like increasing stipends as well.

24:50 Emily: Alright. Okay, great. To be followed up on.

Commercial

24:55 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! I’m hard at work behind the scenes updating my suite of tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2022. These pre-recorded educational workshops explain how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. For the 2022 tax season starting in January 2023, I’m offering three versions of this workshop, one each for U.S. citizen/resident graduate students, U.S. citizen/resident postdocs, and non-resident graduate students and postdocs. That third workshop is brand-new this year, and I’m very excited about it. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the end users, graduate students and postdocs, can access them for free. Please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, etc. to request that they sponsor one of my tax preparation workshops for you and your peers. I’d love to receive a warm introduction to a potential sponsor this month so we can hit the ground running in January serving those early bird filers. You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Now back to our interview.

Budget Breakdown

26:36 Emily: Okay, so we’ve talked about your investing goals. How are you formulating your budget to support those goals and to support all the other things you want to be doing in your life right now?

26:47 Michele: Yeah, so actually, the reason why I want to do a budget breakdown is because I’m really bad at actually doing a budget, so this helped me to track my spending. So, right now, I guess like my fixed costs, so my rent, I’m living with two roommates. So I have, my portion of the rent is $375 a month. And then with like utilities they’re kind of high here so I’d say that brings me to like between like $450 to $500 for my portion total, sorry, when I add rent and utilities <laugh>.

27:27 Emily: Just to interrupt, because that is such a low amount of rent, I have not heard a rent amount that low in a long time. Do you have your own bedroom or are you sharing a bedroom?

27:35 Michele: No, I have my own room and then it’s actually like a really nice setup because it’s a house, and so we still have like our laundry and like a dishwasher and like a yard. So yeah, when I found this place I was like, this is great. <Laugh>.

27:50 Emily: Is that through a private landlord?

27:52 Michele: Yeah.

27:53 Emily: Okay. Yeah, I’m always curious in different cities about like, where can you get the best deal? Is it going to be a corporate place, is it going to be, you know, a mom-and-pop landlord? So yeah, that’s great. Did you find this house? Or did these roommates exist and you found the room?

28:06 Michele: So, my roommates are both also in, not my department but a similar department to me. So, they had sent out like an e-mail on the listserv, and so I reached out to them through that.

Food and Furniture

 28:18 Emily: Amazing. Love it. Okay. What’s your next expense?

28:22 Michele: Yeah, so I guess my next biggest expense would be my food which I kind of just lumped together, like going out to eat and groceries. So, I guess my first month it was $450 and then my second month was $385, so I guess roughly $410 right now. And then also with my moving, I didn’t bring any furniture with me so I actually got pretty good deals on all of them. So my total for that was $170.

29:01 Emily: You spent $170 in total on furniture? Was it just like a mattress or like what?

29:07 Michele: No, I got like someone was selling their bed at a rummage sale, so I got that pretty cheap. And then I got a desk, a chair, and two dressers. Yeah, Facebook Marketplace.

Transportation

29:21 Emily: I’m just delighted by this great job. <Laugh> Yeah, Facebook Marketplace. Okay, great. Yeah, have you incurred any other expenses? I think you said earlier you basically only buy like housing and food, so what else is on your list?

29:35 Michele: <Laugh> and then I guess like transportation. So, my gas money and then I’m flying home for the holidays and I’m also going to be taking the train home so I have to like buy those tickets. So, for this month it was like $282 and then last month it was like $110 for gas. And then I guess too, one other thing I should mention is I like bike to the university so that I don’t have to buy the parking pass and I can just park for free at my house when I go to the store and all that stuff, so.

30:19 Emily: So, I think we’ve covered the big three, right? Housing, food and transportation. You mentioned that you own your car outright, so you know, you’ll pay insurance on that but not a whole lot in terms of fixed costs. But even just with those three, I think you’re still under a thousand dollars a month probably. Which is quite reasonable given your gross salary, let’s just say it’s $30,000 per year. $2,500 per month. So, keeping your like larger necessary expenses under 40% of that is great. You’re doing very well. What are you doing with the rest of it? Like are you choosing to spend discretion early? Or is this just going to go into investments and savings?

Discretionary Funds

31:00 Michele: I’m still trying to figure that out. I guess I also have had like different like fees come up just from like, so I’m trying to figure how to incorporate that into my budget from like the TSO and different organizations on campus. And then I’ve just like since moving, I’ve been like finding little things that I like want to get. Like I just got some new headphones and needed to replace like my watch band and everything. So, I still don’t know how to budget the rest of my money just because I don’t like have a good grasp on it yet, but I’m hoping that I could spend like $200 a month, like discretionary and then just like either invest or save the rest of it.

31:51 Emily: Yeah. Given how low you’re keeping your fixed expenses, especially your housing and this like very decent fellowship, yeah it seems like you have a lot of choice over what you can do with that excess cash flow, so that’s great. I don’t, you know, many graduate students are not in such a fortunate position. That sounds awesome. Does this fellowship last the entire time you’re in graduate school? Or is your stipend expected to like drop at some point?

32:14 Michele: So, for this fellowship, it covers the first and the fifth year. But then like you’re supposed to work with your department to find funding for the middle three years. So, I’m supposed to always have like, at least in my offer letter it said I’m always supposed to have like the base rate somehow.

32:31 Emily: Which is 30,000 per year.

32:33 Michele: Yeah.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

38:34 Emily: Okay, so let’s finish up, Michele, with the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that we have touched on already in the episode or could be something completely new.

38:49 Michele: Yeah, I think my best financial advice would be to automate everything as much as possible so that you don’t miss payments or if you are investing you don’t miss your investment goals. I know most credit cards you can set up an automatic payment so that you don’t miss that at all and then you can also link your accounts together so that you can like send money from your checking account to your savings account automatically so that you don’t miss anything or spend the money that you wanted to save. And I think this also can help with fixing like if you have any problems with like overspending or just like if you get super busy in your PhD like you probably are, then you don’t have to worry about like saving your money.

39:34 Emily: I love that advice. I totally concur. It took me some time, I think, to trust myself with automation, but I’m really glad that I got there. Was there anything that you wanted to add about your bank that you wanted to say?

39:47 Michele: Yeah, I did. So, I highly recommend reading I Will Teach You to Be Rich by Ramit Sethi. I think that’s how you say his last name. Because he gives a lot of recommendations for personal finance in general but for banking. So, like I just opened up the checking account that he recommended, which is called the I think it’s the Schwab High Yield Checking account and you get a brokerage account with that, but you don’t have to invest in it if you don’t have the money or if you don’t want to invest with them. But that checking account gives you 0.4% interest, which is like awesome. And then you also get ATM reimbursement everywhere and you also, I don’t think there’s like overdraft fees. So yeah, it’s just a great account. And then also for savings accounts, he recommends like I open a Capital One 360, and there’s also like an Ally Bank account that you can get like over 2% interest right now. Yeah, because I was looking into the Aspiration account because of their, they don’t lend to fossil fuel companies, but the downside of that is I heard a lot of people talking about how they like couldn’t get their money out and so that kind of scared me a little bit, but I might look into them again once they’re more established because they’re a pretty new bank.

41:06 Emily: Yeah. That’s good to hear. And thank you so much for the recommendation of the book, I Will Teach You to Be Rich. There’s actually a 10th anniversary edition that came out, I want to say within the last year or two. So, recommendations like banks, like I’m sure those have all been updated in the new edition, so if you’re looking for that kind of recommendation, you should definitely get the new edition and not the original edition from like 10 plus years ago. Or I would imagine you can just go to his website, which is probably, I Will Teach You to Be Rich or Ramit Sethi or something like that. And he’ll have those kinds of recommendations, but that’s awesome. And yeah, I think, I read that book again recently after the new edition came out and it’s great. It’s very, very direct and actionable and he’s so confident in what he tries to teach you. So like, it’s really compelling, it’s a compelling book. And a previous podcast guest mentioned that reading that book was like her sort of catalyst for like starting to get her personal finances under control. We’ll link that episode as well in the show notes. But I think it had to do with banking. I think the first thing she did was change her bank and felt really like great about that decision and like just sort of snowballed that energy like going forward. So, that’s awesome. Thanks for the recommendation.

42:10 Michele: Yeah, no problem. Yeah, the banking was really helpful, too. Just using like an online bank that doesn’t have as many like brick and mortar locations, they save a lot of money and give it back to you. So, that was a really helpful tip from him.

42:21 Emily: Totally. I started using an online or an internet-only bank I think about a year after I graduated from college when I knew like I’m going to move for grad school and then I’m probably going to move again. And then maybe, you know, I just saw a lot of moves like in my future and didn’t want to be sort of tethered to like regional, you know, availability of brick and mortar banks. So, all great suggestions. Michele, it’s been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for volunteering to be on the podcast!

42:45 Michele: Of course. Thank you for having me!

Outtro

42:51 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Apply Valuable Scientific Mindsets to Your Personal Finances

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Brock Bennion, a financial advisor with Kimball Creek Partners who draws on his scientific training when he works with clients. Brock and Emily discuss how the mindsets and principles that scientists learn can translate very well into their personal finances, everything from thinking long-term to avoiding flashy experiments to collaboration. Brock also lists the essential personal finance strategies to apply during or following the PhD to avoid making a big mistake.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

S13E7 Image: How to Apply Valuable Scientific Mindsets to Your Personal Finances

Teaser

00:00 Brock: In science, what we learn early on is the value of collaboration and how important it is to get your findings out there as soon as you have something. And you would never wait to present those findings until you were at a conference or you were publishing them in a journal. You find the experts along the way and you workshop it the whole time. We’re hesitant to do that with finances. You’ve got to talk with people who have done it and who have some expertise, even just through their experience. Because if you do that, you will start refining your way to a better answer.

Introduction

00:39 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. This is Season 13, Episode 7, and today my guest is Dr. Brock Bennion, a financial advisor with Kimball Creek Partners who draws on his scientific training when he works with clients. Brock and I discuss how the mindsets and principles that scientists learn can translate very well into their personal finances, everything from thinking long-term to avoiding flashy experiments to collaboration. Brock also lists the essential personal finance strategies to apply during or following the PhD to avoid making a big mistake. The inevitable—the unavoidable—is approaching. Tax season begins in about two months. But help is on the way! I have been busy this fall creating a new version of my annual federal tax return preparation workshop and updating the versions I have offered in the past. These workshops are designed exclusively for funded graduate students and postdocs.

02:08 Emily: I used to teach this material live for university clients, but in recent years have switched over to offering pre-recorded videos plus Q&A opportunities. I actually much prefer this format because you can work through the content at the time that is best for you, whether January or April or in between, and also at a comfortable pace. For the tax return preparation process in particular, I think it’s very helpful to be able to pause the videos and collect documents or make calculations and rewatch segments if you didn’t catch the nuances the first time through. Plus, you still have the ability to ask questions in case anything is unclear or you aren’t sure how to apply the information to your situation, and frankly these are even better questions than the ones I used to get during fully live workshops because you’ve had time to reflect. I’m very proud of these workshops, and they’ve been reaching more and more graduate students and postdocs every year. The new version of this workshop that I’m offering this coming tax season is for nonresident graduate students and postdocs, and I will continue to offer the versions for U.S. citizen/resident graduate students and U.S. citizen/resident postdocs.

03:20 Emily: If you would like to use one of these workshops in the upcoming tax season, you do have the option to purchase it as an individual via PFforPhDs.com/tax. However, I would much prefer that you gain access to it for free, which you can attempt to arrange by helping me find a sponsor at your university, such as your graduate school, graduate student association, postdoc office, international house, etc. I’m bringing this up now because these offices and groups generally need some time to figure out if they have any funding available to allocate toward this purpose. Please let me know of your interest in approaching a potential sponsor at your institution by emailing me at [email protected]. I may already have someone in mind! Thanks for your help with spreading the word about these educational tax workshops! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s13e7/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Brock Bennion.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:28 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on podcast today, Dr. Brock Bennion. He is a PhD from WashU in St. Louis, and he’s also a wealth strategist at Kimball Creek Partners in Tacoma, Washington. So Brock, so delighted that you’re here today. We’ve met on Twitter, which is a really fun way for me to get to meet my guests. So, I’m so glad that we, you know, had some exchanges over there and now here you are on the podcast. So, this is really fun. And would you please introduce yourself to the audience a little bit further?

04:56 Brock: Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Emily, it’s, it’s great to be here. It’s great to talk to you kind of face-to-face, like you said, it’s fun to meet people online. Like you said, I’m a wealth strategist at Kimball Creek Partners. My background is in biology. I was an immunologist, studied at Washington University. I studied viruses and autoimmune diseases and how those two things work together and I absolutely loved it. I still love science. I think it’s amazing, but I am enjoying my career here and, you know, we might talk about how I ended up here and why I did that. But now, I love talking about the interface of science and finance and how these things come together. And so, when you offered me the chance to come on the podcast, I thought, well, that sounds like a lot of fun.

Research Mindsets that Translate into Finance

05:38 Emily: So, we decided on our topic for today being, you know, for the researchers in the audience, the PhDs and PhDs-to-be who are listening, who want to enhance their practice of personal finance. What are the mindsets that we have already developed or are developing as researchers that are really going to serve us well if we’re able to translate those over into this personal finance space? And so, you and I kind of collaboratively came up with a list of a few different points together. So, we’re just going to talk through those and kind of have fun with this like, idea of translating these mindsets from research into the practice of personal finance. So, what was the first one that we came up with, Brock? And let’s start us off.

06:21 Brock: Well, so first we talked about the importance of kind of knowing your goal. I mean, if there is again, a unique aspect of a PhD, it’s the variable size and length, but how you really do view your projects in terms of years. You know, it’s not, you know, this semester’s, you know, test or you know, the upcoming quiz. It’s okay, how do I craft a story that takes place over, you know, years and then, you know, beyond your graduate work, you know, sometimes decades-long, you know, pursuits. And that’s what finance really is. You know, if you are thinking about finance properly, you’re thinking about it in terms of your life, and often beyond that and legacy planning for, you know, future generations and setting up your kids for their success. And that’s a really great skill. And something I think is underappreciated as a PhD student is the ability to say, okay, I’m starting at zero, you know, and I want to go to this point far off in the future. And that applies really well to finance, to be able to say, I’m starting at zero. How do I get to where I want to be? And let’s build a plan to get there.

07:31 Emily: I completely agree. This is one of the points that I kind of start off one of my talks with, The Graduate Student and Postdoc’s Guide to Personal Finance. I like to start off on a like a positive note of like, encouragement for the people in the audience who might feel a little bit like intimidated about, you know, a lot of people are uncomfortable talking about their finances or learning. So, I like to say to them like, if you as a PhD student or postdoc already have like a grand vision for your career and for how graduate school or your postdoc fits in to that vision of your career, you have to do that to get to the stage of being in graduate school. Like you have to write it in your essays, like how this is going to play into your career.

08:11 Brock: Exactly.

08:12 Emily: And so, you’re doing that long-term planning on the career side. And so if you could just pivot that and think about, you know, the decades in your finances and what you want your vision for your life to be, over not just the next few years, but you know, the decades, that’s already a skill that you’re developing there. And you just have to put it over to the other side of the finances and apply it there and it’s going to serve you really, really well. And I’m also thinking now about how like, you know, in setting goals, like, okay, this is what I want my career to be. And then you can break that down. Okay, that means this is what I want to do for my graduate degree and then I think I’m probably going to follow that up with a postdoc or this type of job after that.

Financial Goal-Setting

08:49 Emily: And you know, as you said earlier, people can pivot. You and I both, you know, made some pivots after graduate school, but we at least, you know, you can at least start down that path with a plan. And I think that is similar in the finances, right? Have the goals for the decades, but then back that out and have the goals for 10 years and five years and one year. And then that breaks down to your current goals as well. Yeah, is there anything you want to say about those, like links of time or like decision-making around goal-setting?

09:15 Brock: I think you’re right that like what PhDs do really well is they set these long goals, but then also that they set little goals to get there, which is the step of goal-setting that I think most people fall flat on. I’d say the first problem is people don’t set goals to begin with. If you ask somebody what are your financial goals, they’ll often just give you a blank stare. You should have some goals. And then what you need though, you need lots of small goals that get you there. You know, so if your goal is to discover, you know, something, you know, or show that a drug works, there are all these experiments that go into how does that line up? For the same way, when you’re doing a financial goal, one, you have to pick what your goal is. You have to know where you want to go. But then you’ve got to set the little goals to get there. It’s doing both of those things that really is where you harness the power of goal-setting and of planning.

Long-Term Goal: Retirement

10:03 Emily: I’d love to hear some examples now, like in that financial realm of a really long-term goal and then some more short-term or intermediate-term goals that will help you get there to that long-term goal.

10:13 Brock: Yeah, so usually, I mean, one that we talk about is just retirement. Now, not every scientist wants to retire. I used to joke that the retirement plan of many scientists, especially in academia, is something like drop dead in your office at 95 as you’re writing a grant, you know? But for those that do want to retire, you’ve got to come up with an idea of what that retirement looks like. You know, basic things of where you’re going to live, what do you want to spend your time doing? Because few people just stop and play golf now. I mean, that’s not really what retirement looks like for most people. And then, put a dollar figure on what that costs. Say, well, you know, if I want to travel abroad three times a year, once I retire, well you know, what’s that going to cost me? And then back out from there, and once you start getting a goal of a lifestyle type of thing, you put a big dollar sign on that. And then you take that big dollar sign, you break it down into smaller dollar signs of, well how much is that on a yearly basis? And then what do I need to start saving now to be able to accumulate those kinds of funds to be able to live that kind of lifestyle?

11:24 Emily: This example of retirement is one that I end up speaking about a lot because it’s obviously one of those biggest goals within personal finance that takes so long to properly prepare for, you know, and employing the power of compound interest and so forth. But I’m remembering that when I was in graduate school, and to some extent up until just like a couple of years ago, I didn’t really have that vision of what I wanted my retirement to look like. So, my shorter-term goal was just start saving and start investing and assume that you’re going to get to like the more specific vision later. Because I know it’s going to take investing to some degree either way. And I wonder if there’s a parallel that we can draw over to like the process of getting your PhD or your career on the other side of it. Like maybe it is just, okay, I’m pretty sure I need to have a PhD to do something with my career later in this area. So, I feel like a PhD is a good thing to complete, and that’s a nice five or so, you know, year term goal.

Value of Planning and Collaboration (PhD/Finance)

12:20 Brock: And I think with that recognizing though, like from the beginning, you’re investing a certain amount of time in your PhD, and what do you expect the return to be on the end? You know, for some people, it’s the logical next step from undergraduate. For others, they know going in, well this is what I want to do. And others figure it out along the way. And that’s totally fine whatever path you find yourself in, but you should be actively looking for your plan and your outcome. You know, the future belongs to those who go out and get it. And if you’re always just taking things as it comes, that’s an okay thing to do as you’re figuring things out. But eventually, you’ve got to set your sights on something, and you’ve got to go and get it.

13:04 Brock: And that’s exactly what I think a PhD teaches you really well to do. We all know the person who sat at their bench and didn’t do any experiments and eventually, they had to go do those experiments. And we all know the person that came in every morning at 6:00 AM and was off working, and they got a lot of stuff done. It’s no different in finance or in life. The other thing that you kind of brought up before, and I think, you know, dovetails nicely at this, is the hesitancy that people have to talk about their finances with others, and how they kind of hold this in close. And what I find so interesting is that’s so counter to good science <laugh> right? In science, what we learn early on is the value of collaboration and how important it is to get your findings out there as soon as you have something.

13:55 Brock: You know, from the time that, hey, I have this idea, and you go and you share it with somebody and they say, well that’s a terrible idea, but you know what, if you did this, this would be a better idea. And then you go down the hall and tell somebody else and they say, well that’s a pretty good idea. We could do this experiment that would find out if it would be a really good idea. And, and you would never wait to present those findings until you were at a conference or you were publishing it in a journal. You find the experts along the way and you workshop it the whole time. We’re hesitant to do that with finances. We say, well I want to keep this secret until I’m totally secure. Right? Once I’ve become financially independent, then maybe I’ll talk about my struggles early on or whatever it is.

14:36 Brock: And I think whether you’re choosing, you know, the loan forgiveness pathway or you’re trying to decide is now the right time to buy a house or should I go to a high cost-of-living area for this job that I think has potential? You’ve got to talk with people who have done it and who have some expertise, even just through their experience. Because if you do that, you will start refining your way to a better answer. And you don’t just talk about it once you talk about it every chance you get because everybody will add something different and you’ll form a really good understanding of where you want to go.

15:11 Emily: This is definitely something that, at least I would think many graduate programs you’re taught and encouraged to do this. In fact, find peers and collaborators at many different levels. You have your peers, like other people in your cohort or in your program or in your lab and they’re going through the similar, you know, struggles that you are and they can have something to say about your thought process or your goals or what have you. And then you have your mentor and then you have your committee, and then you have maybe a collaborator at another institute. You know, there are many different levels of people who can help and guide you. And you’re right that we don’t, I mean on like the personal finance side of things, I’m trying to think because like, yeah, some people work with someone like you, like a financial advisor usually after they have some money to be advised upon <laugh>.

Overcoming Stigma

15:54 Emily: And then before that point, when you’re in the, let’s say the training stage and you’re just like trying things out and trying to get some debt paid off and get your, you know, your investing off the ground or whatever’s happening, it’s much less common to talk either with peers or with a mentor or someone who’s been there before. And you know, I do kind of serve as that role as like an educator, but I don’t have like one-to-one relationships with people. It’s more of a teaching like mechanism for me. But people, yeah, don’t tend to talk very much among their peers, even though they could be really good, resources and sounding boards. Yeah, what have you seen, like, I guess with your clients or have you seen any way to like kind of overcome this stigma that we have?

16:34 Brock: You know, it’s hard. Like any stigma, you know, and if we’re talking about, you know, mental illness or social issues or whatever it is, any stigma is best broken by breaking it. And you really just kind of have to start and realize that most people don’t judge. Most people are very accepting, very welcoming to that being honest and open. And you actually forge some real connections with that. You know, some of the best relationships that, you know, me and my wife made during our grad school years were with other couples who were going through the exact same thing. And we’d talk about, you know, our struggles of how do you make this work in the finances, and everybody’s dealing with the same stuff. And typically, people who have already overcome are even more empathetic because they remember those years and they think about, well, how could I have been helped? I wish I would’ve known this, I wish I would’ve known this. And it’s really valuable.

17:32 Emily: I think that’s definitely an encouragement to the listeners to talk with whoever’s a little further along than you are. Like if you’re an entering graduate student, talk with an older graduate student, talk with a postdoc, anyone who’s at like a later stage. And what’s kind of interesting about academia, I mean, obviously people come from very different, um, financial backgrounds. And you know, some people might be deeply in debt coming into graduate school. Some people might have resources from their parents or maybe a prior job that they had before they started graduate school. We can all be coming from different places, but within your program, it’s pretty likely that people are being paid somewhere in a similar range to each other unless there’s like an outside fellowship involved or something like, so at least you have some degree of commonality that you can like start conversations from. Like, oh wow, you know, rent is like 40% of my income.

18:22 Emily: My goodness, what are you paying for rent? I love that question. What are you paying for rent? It’s a very easy one to answer. Everybody knows how much they’re paying for rent. And it’s low stakes, right? Like, it’s not a judgment, oh, you’re paying more or less, whatever. Oh, we found a great deal. I’d love to know how you did that. I literally did this in graduate school because I ultimately moved a couple times in graduate school, and by the time I got to the last place that we stayed, it was like the best deal that I ever lived in during that period of time. It was because I asked people, how much are you paying for this place? Seems great. Oh wow, I can’t believe it’s that little. I’m going to get on the waiting list. You know? So, it it took that like collaboration, like we were talking about earlier, in sharing information to get to those great tactics that actually really help your finances when you can do something like reduce rent. One quick example, easy example. Very easy to talk to other people about rent. I found <laugh>.

19:09 Brock: No, that’s a super great example. No, and I love that because you’re right, people, everybody knows what it is and you know, you don’t judge anybody. You know, you don’t feel any judgment. You feel like you got a deal if somebody’s saying, oh, I paid this or I paid this, and Oh, that’s a great question. I like that.

Commercial

19:26 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2022-2023 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Not-Flashy Experiments in Research and in Finance

20:49 Emily: Another point that we put in our outline was to choose experiments that you are fairly confident are going to work in the sense that they are going to give you information. And the way you put that was don’t be flashy. So, what does this in the research realm, and then how does this translate over to the personal finance realm?

21:11 Brock: Yeah, I hope this wasn’t just me in grad school, but I feel like a lot of grad students, maybe it was just me, you know, early on, will sit down with their advisor and say, Hey, I read in the literature about, you know, this new aspect, this new cool thing that’s out, and I was thinking that this might be affecting this, which might be affecting this, which is actually driving, you know, my project. And you know, the advisor lovingly looks at you and says, mm, probably not <laugh>. You know, like that’s a really long stretch. It could be, and if it did, it’d be really cool and to be really impactful, but the chances of that being true, that’s not really well-grounded in the literature. And then they steer you to some experiments that whether or not, you know, whether you get a positive result that you’re expecting or a negative result, it’s the right question to be asking.

21:59 Brock: It’s the right experiment to be doing and that can go into your paper, you know, be part of your project. And, you know, often people will ask, you know, what do I need to do to be financially independent? And like a really basic way to start is save 10% of your income. Not super flashy. It’s not about a specific investment or it’s not about, you know, doing a fixer upper home or having a side hustle or whatever it is. It’s just, you know, what, if you save 10% of your income, you put it away super diligently for 30 years. I don’t run into many people that have done that and aren’t in a good place financially. They may not be super rich, but they’re in a good place financially. They did something with a high degree of probability that it was going to work, and it worked <laugh>.

22:51 Emily: I think the way that I would put this, and I’m trying, I think this was advice that I sort of, I don’t think I applied it but I sort of heard it during graduate school, was to have a couple of sort of safe aspects to your project. Maybe more conservative, maybe more likely to pan out. And then take one high flyer on some strange idea you have. But don’t devote all of your time to it, right? We’re talking about 10, 20%, something like that. And have, you know, in terms of like constructing your dissertation, like have a couple of chapters that you’re pretty sure are going to work out and then save your, you know, strange, unique, possibly very high reward, but also very high-risk idea for, you know, the last one, right?

23:32 Brock: Yes.

23:32 Emily: And so, I think that that translates over very well to personal finance. It’s like, yeah, a few people might, you know, make it big financially on essentially a gamble, but the vast majority of people do not win the lottery, whatever, you know, the crypto lottery, whatever the version of the lottery is that you’re playing. You can try it, but with the vast majority of your resources, let’s do something that’s a little more tried and true. As you were kind of saying earlier, like, you know, I think about, and maybe we’ll link it in the show notes if you can find this, but I don’t know if it’s a PhD comic or xkcd or something like that, but it’s like, you know, a circle and it’s like these are the boundaries of human knowledge, and the PhD is like putting a little tiny bump on the edge of that circle, you know, like that. It’s the same thing with finances. Like the circle is like, do the stuff like saving 10% of your income, having insurance, like do all the regular stuff that is boring. It’s not flashy, but it’s going to work. And then, okay, yeah. Like, let’s take a little risk over here and a little risk over here as, you know, your personality might lead you to, or something like that. Is that another way of phrasing what you said?

24:38 Brock: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are things that you should do that make a lot of sense. And then yeah, you know, I’m certainly not saying you can’t take any risk or you can’t, you know, say, have fun with some aspects of your finance. But where you get hurt is when you devote too much time to that, just like you would in a project where if you spend all your time doing high-risk projects, maybe you get lucky and you hit it out of the park, but most likely you’ll end up with a lot of dead ends. You’ll be years into your project and you won’t really have a good foundation. And that’s what we’re trying to avoid.

Not-Flashy Personal Finance Advice (But it Works)

25:15 Emily: So, let’s give people some not-flashy personal finance advice. Let’s come up with like, I don’t know, three or five like baseline things, not flashy stuff, great strategies to be using. Whether that starts during graduate school or starts a little bit afterwards if they’re not quite ready for them yet. What’s on your list?

25:31 Brock: Well, I mean, you know, you’ll always hear, you know, my favorite is they’ll always say something like, you know, man, if only I bought, you know, insert whatever tech company in the nineties, you know, now I’d have, you know, this whole fleet of jets or something, right? Like, what people don’t say is, man, I sure wish I bought a diversified low-expense ETF in the nineties. But if you did that and you waited 30 years, it grew <laugh>, it worked. And there were a lot of companies in the nineties that just went away. And so yes, we can in hindsight look back and say, it would’ve been great to have bought this one that became big and changed the world. But if you just bought a low-expense, you know, ETF-type solution, it’s not flashy, it didn’t make you a billionaire, but it did work and it did grow.

26:19 Emily: Because, also by the way, it probably included that flashy tech company, whatever the sector was that, you know, is hot at the time, right? You just bought a tiny bit of it instead of a hundred percent of your bets on that. But the thing is like when you make that diversified portfolio bet, as you were just saying, you’re going to have some winners in there. If the economy is winning, you’re going to be winning with that portfolio. And you’re going to have a lot of losers in there, too. But thank goodness you bought some of the winners as well because you were so well diversified and it didn’t rely on your research and your ingenuity and your insights and blah, blah, blah to pick those out. Okay, so passive investing, index funds, ETFs, that’s a non-flashy strategy. Great. What else is on your list?

26:58 Brock: You need to have some form of life insurance if you have people that depend on you. Now, this does not mean an expensive, you know, universal whole life, whatever policy. But what we’ll tell people is, you know, make a list of everybody you say I love you to. Put a checkmark next to anybody you’re financially responsible for, and then ask yourself what would happen to those people if I wasn’t here? It’s not a flashy way to do it, and the goal is that you die never using it, but if you’re wrong and you don’t have that, you could leave people that you care about in a very unfortunate position.

27:42 Emily: Yep. Love it. And I want to add to that disability insurance too.

27:45 Brock: Yes.

27:45 Emily: Own occupation. Okay. What else is on your list?

Don’t Overextend Yourself

27:48 Brock: Just little things like don’t overextend yourself. Keep a budget, you know. Understand where are you putting your money every week? Is that in line with your priorities? And the example I sheepishly use, soon after undergraduate, I found myself working at a company as a microbiologist and I would go to lunch at just a sandwich shop every day. And all of a sudden I looked back and I’d spent like $300 that month going to the sandwich shop. Well, it didn’t put me in a bad financial position, but I thought, this is not in line with my priorities. It didn’t bring me that much more joy and to think that I could have put that money to something that had, you know, more in line with what I wanted to be doing, well that compounded over time. And so, again, there’s nothing flashy about bringing your lunch or making those small purchases and funneling your money in the direction you want it to, but it does work and it does add up, especially when you start early.

28:52 Emily: Yeah, I think I would phrase that as like an awareness of your money and just being willing to make adjustments when things are kind of out of alignment. And as you said, not overextending yourself. When you said that, I always think of housing and transportation, right? Like large fixed expenses, like especially challenging during graduate school, but like as much as possible, keep those in alignment with your overall income at that time. It’s obviously going to be really challenging in high cost-of-living areas, but just do the best you can during that kind of strange period of life, and you’ll be able to be more in balance later on when your salary is higher. But do the best you can and be aware of it. And like we talked about earlier, just be aware of opportunities where maybe you could find a way to spend a little less on one of these expenses if you feel overextended in that area.

Focus on Your Main Job

29:38 Brock: The last one I might add to this is just lots of times, people will focus on having a side hustle or side job, which is great if you enjoy that. I’ll often talk to people about focus on your first job. You know, there are things especially early in your career that you can take on more responsibility in different areas and accelerate your career growth and your career trajectory so that you’re making more money and you don’t have to spend 10 hours a night doing something else. You could spend an extra hour at your job and show that you’re willing to take on more responsibility and you grow. And as your salary grows, you don’t let your lifestyle creep with it, but you find ways to put that money to where you value most.

30:25 Emily: I love that point, kind of the rise of the side hustle corresponded with when I was in graduate school, like during the great recession, I think you were there at that time as well. And you know, at that time it was like sort of a necessity thing. Like a lot of people didn’t have primary jobs, couldn’t make more of their primary jobs, so they were turning to the side hustle. And then sometimes we were talking about earlier, like you see these successes of people who have a great side hustle or turn their side hustle into their main thing and their businesses and forth. And that can seem really attractive. But the 80/20 on this is just make more at your primary job as best you’re able to. And that could be through negotiation, that could be through, I want to say like preparation.

31:03 Emily: So, as a graduate student, as a postdoc, I want you to negotiate, I want you to apply for the fellowships. I want you to advocate for yourself. Absolutely. But if you’ve done that to the greatest degree you can and that’s where your income is for the time being until you graduate or move on or whatever, what you can still be doing is preparing for that next stage in your career through professional development, through networking, through gaining more skills. And so, that will pay off later. It’s not going to be in the immediate future, but when you have that first post-PhD, you know, career, job or whatever, that’s when it can sort of be like pedal to the medal and you’re going to apply all that stuff you learned, you’re going to negotiate, you’re going to do all the stuff to get that great salary.

31:39 Brock: Yeah.

Don’t Be Wrong

31:40 Emily: And the last point on our outline, Brock, I love the way you said this was, don’t be wrong, <laugh>. So, what do you mean by that?

31:48 Brock: Well, it comes back to the idea of, you know, doing what works. But we’d often say that the number one rule in science is don’t be wrong. You don’t have to be totally right. Nobody publishes a paper and at the end says, and this is it. No reason for a follow-up study, no reason for discussion. This is the end of the study. No, everybody has more questions. Every good study brings up implications and has things that spread from it. What you can’t do in a study is say something that’s wrong. You can’t make a claim that’s unsubstantiated, you can’t, you know, lead the field down the wrong path. You don’t have to be a hundred percent right, but you can’t be wrong <laugh> if that makes sense. And it goes the same way for finances. Making bad investments, things that are too risky early on, paying way too much than you should for things like a car or a house early on in your career. Those are things that can get you sideways financially and really throw you off course for a long time. It is better to just not be a hundred percent right. Talk about buying a diversified fund or something like that. You buy everything, you buy some losers, you buy some winners, you’re not wrong even if you’re not a hundred percent right. And I really think that’s important. Too many people are looking for that, well what’s the trick that’ll get me there faster? And it’s those tricks that usually mess you up.

33:22 Emily: Yeah, I feel like we went over this a little bit when we were talking about those like non-flashy strategies. Because the flashy strategies are the ones where we’re like, well, you might be right, but you definitely might be wrong as well. And it takes a lot of time to like figure that out, right? I mean, if you are an active investor for example, and you love to pick your own stocks, time will tell whether your strategy was successful or not. But it’s going to be time over like decades, not over like a year. And there’s less time to course correct once you’ve figured out that statistically that did not, you know, work out very well for you. So, don’t make a big mistake like we talked about earlier, like having sufficient insurance, not just life and disability insurance, which we mentioned, but like keeping health insurance and all that other stuff. Like insurance generally is one of those like nobody wants to pay for it, but guess what? The reason why the product exists is because you have an area in your life where if something terrible happened, you would not financially be able to recover from that, or at least not very quickly. That’s why you have the home insurance and the renters insurance and all that stuff. So like insurance is definitely one of those like, don’t make a mistake kind of products like yeah, it’s not pleasant to pay for it, but what’s really unpleasant is if that thing happens that you’re trying to insure against.

34:30 Brock: Yeah, we talk about, you know, you invest in what’s probable and you insure against what’s possible. So, the things that are possible but financially devastating if they were to occur, that’s where insurance can mitigate that. We don’t invest in those kind of things that are possible but not probable. We invest in what’s probable, insure against what’s possible.

34:51 Emily: Interesting. And can you think of any other areas that would be like a big mistake? Something that we haven’t already mentioned?

34:58 Brock: Yeah, I mean the one that comes to mind, and this is probably for people considering a graduate school or something like that, but where I look at people who go into a program and don’t finish. Or, you know, and I’ve seen people that drop out, you know, maybe just after five years, but just a year or two away from finishing that you get going down the wrong path and you decide that’s not for you, but you leave taking away nothing. It’s better to finish all the way to the end and then pivot once you’re out, and this isn’t for everybody, but in a lot of cases. Because then you have something to show for that. You show you’ve completed this, then you can move on to the next thing. But where again, you can get yourself really sideways is if you spend half a decade or more going down a path only to drop everything and not at least attempt to build on that momentum that you came up with.

35:57 Emily: Yeah, this is an interesting point and I feel like actually it could apply in other areas of career as well. Like not just the choice to go to graduate school or not, but sort of going down the wrong just career path generally for you. And it goes back to what we were talking about earlier about knowing yourself, knowing your values, knowing your personality. And I think just as soon as you start to notice a misalignment with whatever is going on in that area, it behooves you to examine that and then take action. Whether that’s the action to decide to finish, let’s say the PhD, the action to leave at that point before you, you know, spend three years in that state and not take any action about it. Because there are off ramps, right? Out of academia that can still be fruitful.

Be Open to Pivoting

36:35 Brock: Oh, I’m obviously all for pivoting. Me and my career, I pivoted. I think it’s great. I think you have opportunities throughout your career to pivot. But there’s a way to build on your pivots so that they aren’t turning around, but just changing course. And I think that’s important.

36:54 Emily: Yeah, I think actually my career has been an illustration of this point, actually, because I started knowing maybe around two years into graduate school that I probably wasn’t going to continue in research. But at that point, I really did a heavy reexamination period for about a year and decided that I did want to finish the PhD and it was because I was interested in several, you know, quote unquote alternative career tracks where the PhD would be useful. And so, I finished and then I picked my head up and did another reevaluation and said, oh, but I really love personal finance now and I really wanna go in this direction. So, I ended up pivoting again. But as you said, I was very happy that I got to the credential and got to the finish point because it has been useful since then. Then again, if I had been certain earlier that I didn’t want the PhD, then that would’ve been a good point to take that exit.

37:42 Brock: Exactly. Because, just like you said, those additional years that you would’ve invested. I mean, the relationship between time and money I think is very important. And, you know, whether it’s that you realize that my time is more important spent in this other direction, that’s great. Pivot. Leave grad school if that’s the right call for you. But know and recognize what you’re giving up and what you’re changing to. Because those are the kind of decisions that, you know, make a big swing in your career, in your finances, in your life. You’ve got to pay attention where you’re swinging.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

38:19 Emily: I want to finish up now with the final question that I ask all of my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And we’ve talked about so much like advice-y kind of stuff in this podcast episode already that I actually want to give you a more specific assignment, if you don’t mind.

38:36 Brock: Yeah. Okay.

38:37 Emily: Which is that you mentioned earlier that you had children while you were in graduate school. And so, I would love it if you would give advice for another graduate student or early-career PhD who has children maybe at a time when their peers do not yet have children, and what is some financial advice for that person?

38:54 Brock: You know, I <laugh> that’s a hard one. It is hard to have kids in grad school, but for me it was so worth it. It was great. My wife and I are a fantastic team. I hope she would say the same, and certainly she shouldered a lot of that burden. And I wouldn’t have been able to focus on grad school the way I did if it wasn’t for her support. And, you know, she deserves probably more credentials than I do. The advice that I would give to somebody thinking about this is to be really intentional with your time. Kids, whether you have one or I have three now, so I can speak up to three, they take up all your time. No matter how many you have. They are, you know, they expand to the volume to which, you know, the container holds.

39:51 Brock: And so, you need to be very good about structuring your day and your time so that you can be where you need to be. Now when kids are young, they don’t really know whether you’re home or not. So, it’s as much about supporting, you know, your other team member, you know, your significant other, in that process. And you need to do that. You need to be an equal team. But know that you will have less time. You will have competing priorities, and it will be hard. But I’d say that’s okay because it’s really fun. I’m a big fan of kids <laugh>.

40:37 Emily: I think, you know, the first thing you mentioned there was like time management basically, like being really intentional about where you put your time. And that’s something that I’ve definitely been learning as a business owner and as a parent. Sort of like the, when you’re at work, be all at work, be really focused, get what you need to get done in that time. And then when you’re at home, be off of work, be with your kids, like have that quality time together. And hopefully, you can make the arrangements with your partner and your childcare provider and all this stuff so you have that like, committed time that you can devote to both. But yeah, like you just become pretty, I at least have become a lot more hands-on manage-y about my time because I need to be now that that’s a factor in my life.

41:23 Brock: Yeah. And again, it’s different ways of doing it. You know, so I mean, I had friends in grad school that they would come in later in the day and they’d stay until three in the morning. And that worked really well for them. And for me it was get in early and leave in time for dinner at home and come back if I needed to, if there was a late night time point or something for an experiment. But you need to find something that works for you. You know, your life, your finances, have a goal of what you want that to look like and then you make a plan to get there. It’s not easy. It’s actually incredibly difficult, but it is worth it, and you will find more happiness if you do it that way.

42:06 Emily: I love that note to end on. Thank you so much, Brock, for giving this interview. It’s been a pleasure to talk with you.

42:11 Brock: Thanks so much for having me on, Emily. It’s great talking.

Outtro

42:18 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.