Personal Finance for PhDs

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How This Grad Student’s Finances Changed During the Pandemic

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In this episode, Emily interviews Eun Bin Go, a PhD student at the University of California at Los Angeles. Eun Bin reflects on the financial changes she made during 2020, and which ones of them will stick post-pandemic now that she has developed more DIY skills. Emily and Eun Bin discuss Eun Bin’s housing decisions during her time at UCLA and why she moved out of subsidized student housing. Eun Bin shares the tricks she used to max out her Roth IRA for the first time in 2020 and how she discovered she can contribute to UCLA’s 403(b). The strategies Eun Bin uses to keep her finances and time management on track might be unique to her, but are a great example of how powerful it is to know yourself and find the strategies that work well for you.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Eun Bin: Honestly, things like IRA, investing, like 403(b), 401(k), all those things. Like if we are new to it, it can feel really overwhelming. Like if I read an article about this topic, like three years ago, I would be Googling like every other word, like, what is this? What is that? And it can be a lot of information. Just taking the time to digest through it slowly, I think, gave me the confidence to go for it. Because if you don’t know what it is, it’s hard to put your money into something you don’t know a lot about, right?

Introduction

00:35 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode 10, and today my guest is Eun Bin Go, a PhD student at the University of California at Los Angeles. Eun Bin reflects on the financial changes she made during 2020, and which ones will stick post-pandemic now that she has developed more DIY skills. We discuss Eun Bin’s housing decisions during her time at UCLA and why she moved out of subsidized student housing. Eun Bin shares the tricks she used to max out her Roth IRA for the first time in 2020 and how she discovered she can contribute to UCLA’s 403(b). The strategies Eun Bin uses to keep her finances and time management on track might be unique to her, but are a great example of how powerful it is to know yourself and find the strategies that work well for you.

01:34 Emily: I was very excited to discuss the effect that 2020 has had on Eun Bin’s finances, as it’s not a topic I’ve covered much on the podcast over the past year. It’s difficult to speak about positive financial changes while so many in the U.S. In the world are grieving, sacrificing, and experiencing hardship. Yet, I think the financial course of Eun Bin’s year is likely relatable to people whose income has not faltered during the pandemic. The American personal savings rate spiked during the pandemic. According to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, the personal savings rate at the end of 2020 was approximately double what it was at the end of 2019. So what is a grad student whose income has stayed steady do with her extra cashflow, at least for the time being? That’s what Eun Bin shares with us in this episode. I hope you’ll use this listening as an opportunity for a retrospective on your own finances over the last year.

Book Giveaway Contest

02:36 Emily: Now it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In March, 2021, I’m giving away one copy of I Will Teach You to Be Rich by Ramit Sethi, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for May, 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during March will have a chance to win a copy of this book. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of February from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. The podcast received a review this week titled helpful advice to help you take action and optimize your personal finance. The review reads, quote, I share this podcast with all the academics I know. It is exciting to hear frank and relatable advice that can be actionable rather than just theoretical. A lot of the personal finance space doesn’t speak to the nuance of the academic life, but Dr. Roberts covers a wide variety of helpful topics. I found her work when I got a fellowship and was confused as to how to do my taxes, but I use the information across my whole financial life. A must-listen for every grad student. End quote. Thank you so much to AK for leaving this review. My subtle plot to lure grad students in with talk about taxes and then help them improve their finances overall seems to be working. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Eun Bin Go.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:11 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Eun Bin Go. She is a graduate student at UCLA. We have been long-time Twitter correspondents. This is very exciting to get to talk with her live. And, you know, when she came to me wanting to be on the podcast, we kind of talked it over and decided on a theme of 2020, because Eun Bin decided that 2020 was the year that she was going to get her finances in order. And 2020 turned out to be a crazy year, as we all know. So it’s around this theme of kind of like pandemic life and stay at home order life and all of that, of course, that has extended into 2021. We’re recording this in February, 2021. Still going on. So it’s kind of still 2020, right. So, Eun Bin, I’m so happy to have you on the podcast and, you know, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the listeners?

05:05 Eun Bin: All right. Yeah. Thank you, Emily. It’s really exciting to be on your podcast after being an avid listener for about a year and a half. So thanks again. Thank you again. Hi everyone. My name is Eun Bin Go and I am a fourth year PhD candidate in biochemistry at UCLA. And like Emily said, this is a year or 2020 was a year that I really decided to be more intentional about my finances and how I invest, how I spend. And so I’m really excited to discuss that here today.

Housing Decision at the Start of Grad School

05:38 Emily: Yeah. So we’re going to go through kind of a few different financial areas in the course of this conversation. And the first one is starting with housing because as, well, we’re both California residents. I recently moved to California, but we all know that housing is a major, major, major expense in California. So how have you made different decisions around your housing in 2020?

06:00 Eun Bin: Right. So I started at UCLA in summer of 2017, and my first year of grad school, I just decided to go apply for the on-campus graduate housing at UCLA, reasoning being that I didn’t have too many months before I committed to UCLA and was about to start my program. So there wasn’t really much time to do all the research into different housing options. So that was like the simplest option for me, I suppose. And I thought, well, a lot of other first year, my classmates were also going into graduate housing. So I thought it would be a good idea to just go into graduate housing with my cohort members so that I can spend more time with them. And it was pretty close to campus. It’s about a three-quarter mile to my lab and because I don’t have a car, I don’t drive. Like I can’t drive, so I can’t live too far away. And so I thought, well, pretty close to campus. Like price was about like 15, like mid 15 hundreds, but apparently that’s a pretty good price for how close it was to campus. So I was okay with that. Sure, I’ll go with that. So that’s where I lived for about one year, my first year of grad school.

07:14 Emily: And did that housing choice live up to your expectations? Did it help you bond with your peers? And did you like living that close to campus?

07:21 Eun Bin: So living close to campus, I think had its pros and cons and the con is actually something I’ll mention later about why I decided to move a bit far away. I was okay with the price per se, like with grad school, like spending more time with my peers, because it’s not really like a dorm life as in like a college, like you live in your own room. I didn’t have a roommate. I was in like a one-room studio by myself. So that made it a bit harder to, I guess, connect with my fellow, like apartment-mates because I’m in chemistry and not all chemistry students were in the same housing. It’s really hard to connect with students from other departments, as you might know, if you don’t have any other connections outside. So that didn’t really work out, but it was nice that at least so it’s close to campus. And I just wanted time to settle in, focus on my first year of classes and research and not have to worry too much about housing stuff. So I think it worked out overall well. Yeah.

Housing Journey After the First Year of the PhD

08:24 Emily: Yeah. I think when it’s available to first years, it makes a lot of sense to them to move there. But you lived there for one year and then you moved somewhere else. So what was the choice you made after that?

08:35 Eun Bin: Right. So after my first year, so in the summer of my second year of grad school I have just been, not constantly like every day, but once in a while I would browse like the Facebook housing group and other like listings, local listings. I would constantly look to see if I can find something a bit cheaper that’s still in a reasonable distance now that I have settled it. And I like found my rhythm in grad school, if you will. So I did come across in the summer, July of 2018, exactly after one year, a listing for just one room in a house for $700. And that happened to be at a place that was pretty accessible via bus from just outside of my lab to the house. So I thought, Hm, it might not be a bad idea to move there.

09:32 Eun Bin: I mean, it’s about like seven, $800 cheaper. And this is, I guess, now is a good place to bring up one of the cons for me in terms of on-campus housing is that if I live too close to campus, I’m, it’s just me. Like, this is my problem, but I’m terrible at establishing like physical boundaries with lab. And it’s always so tempting to just go check in what’s going on in lab, even if it’s like 11:00 PM or 6:00 AM, like if I’m awake, I’m thinking about lab. I just want to get myself there. And that was not the best for like, just like work-life boundaries. And so that’s what made me, I guess, decisively move to the other place. In addition to the lower housing costs is that I wanted sufficient boundaries so that when I’m at work, I would be a lot more focused. And if I am far away and the bus doesn’t run anymore at midnight, I can’t just go to lab because I want to, for example. And I have to be sure to get my work done by the last bus so that I don’t end up having to like walk or Uber cause that also costs money and takes a long time. If I’m going to walk like four miles, it was a four mile distance if I were to walk that, for example.

10:50 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s an interesting like way to help enforce the boundary. I don’t know that I’ve actually heard of like, you know, distance from campus as a time management tool, but it sounds creative. And did it work out, you know, did it play out according to your expectations?

11:06 Eun Bin: Oh, absolutely. Right. So I was sure because the last bus stops after like close to 11:00 PM. So there were never times I could stay beyond that. And I definitely was more focused with the time that I had in lab in school, knowing that it’s going to take a lot more effort for me to find my way back home and then find my way to lab for example. Yeah.

11:33 Emily: Yeah. And how about the price? Because when you said that you were dropping your rent by about 50%, I’m thinking what is wrong with this place? Was there anything that you encountered like that?

11:44 Eun Bin: Not at all, no. It was just a one room. It’s probably just big enough to have a tiny desk and a tiny bed, nothing. It’s a tiny, tiny room, but that was honestly enough for me. I just needed a desk and a bed. Nothing else super fancy. And then there was a bathroom outside my room, but then there was only one other lady who lives in this house and then she had a master room with a bathroom inside. So that bathroom was pretty much mine. So it felt I had a lot of privacy. Good distance, nice roommate lady who rent me her room. So there were no issues. Yeah.

Additional Housing Moves During the Pandemic

12:23 Emily: But, you said you moved in 2020 as well. And so why did you give up that housing situation?

12:29 Eun Bin: Right, so only because of the pandemic when we got the notice that, Oh yeah, we absolutely cannot go into lab for however long it may be. I figured, well, do I hold my place here and keep paying rent while I can’t go to lab? Because there was no reason for me to like live in LA cause my family, my parents are in Orange County, in Fullerton, not too far away from UCLA. So if I were to move back with them, which I did, it’s like, is it worth holding onto this place? Because as you might know, like housing around UCLA is very, very competitive and I had a really nice deal, but that is a question I had to wrestle with. Do I keep paying rent and then hold this place? Or do I just give it up and then start over when we are allowed to go back to school and when will that be? We had no idea when it was February, March. We have no idea what time that would be. Right.

13:24 Emily: Yeah. I think a lot of graduate students have been in that exact situation this year. You’ve told me I can’t come back to campus. Why am I here? Why am I paying massive rent in this area? Okay. So, so are you still with your parents or have you found another living arrangement?

13:38 Eun Bin: Right. So I moved back to my parents’ place in March and I came back out to LA in June in 2020 when the school said, Oh yeah, we can let grad students work in labs now just under limited time. But, and the students have to come and shift, but still students can come in. So that’s when we got that notice, that’s when I started actively looking for a new housing arrangement because someone else, as I had worried about, moved into that place, so that place was no longer available. So I just had to find something else. And my priorities this time was I wanted something that’s in a walkable, reasonably walkable distance, just in case like I can’t take the bus, for example, it’s too dangerous to take the bus. I had to have a way to get to school and I can’t drive because of a condition that I have. So I had to find a place where I can walk. Yeah.

14:38 Emily: And so, where are you now and what rent are you paying?

14:42 Eun Bin: So right now I’m living in an apartment. My roommate is a lady whose children have all moved out of this house. So they had a room open and I was able to move in here. This is housing that I found from a UCLA housing Facebook group. And I’m paying now 1300, which is about 600 more than what I was paying in my earlier apartment, but it’s reasonably close to campus. I like the location, my roommate. And my roommate is also very generous with like her sharing her supplies in the kitchen and things like that. And sometimes she cooks for me occasionally. So that’s a nice bonus to have. Yeah.

How Did Housing Changes Affect Your Finances?

15:32 Emily: I feel like I’m experiencing like whiplash, like thinking about all these different amounts that you’ve paid for housing. How has this affected your finances over these last few years with these big swings?

15:43 Eun Bin: Mhm. Right. So like my first year of grad school, when I was living on on-campus housing I knew that based on talking to the grad students at UCLA, all I knew was that they, the pay is good enough for you to live in on-campus housing and be able to like eat and do a little fun things occasionally. So after hearing that, I thought, well, then I’ll just pay the rent that I have to pay. And with the rest, like feed myself and maybe go out once in a while. And so that’s the time in my graduate career where I did not think about money at all. I paid what I needed to pay and that was it. And whatever I had left, I did whatever I felt like kind of.

16:31 Emily: Yeah. Kind of a conventional grad student mindset. Right? All I have to do is pay bills. If I do that, I’m good.

16:37 Eun Bin: Exactly. Right. Yeah. And like, like retirement account, like what is that? Investing like, Ooh, do I even have enough money to give that a try? I didn’t really consider that seriously at the time. And so food, rent, and the remaining money, I just kept. Right.

17:01 Emily: And then when you moved to the much cheaper place, did you make any changes how you were managing your money?

17:07 Eun Bin: Ah, yes. The one big change I would say. So, even though I was paying less in rent, I still treated my life as if I were paying the equal rent that I was paying at the more expensive on campus housing. So with the 600 or so that I had left over every month, I put that into a high yield savings account. And that’s money like, that’s a way for me to just like put money away so that I don’t feel tempted to like just spend it all away immediately. So that was like my first real attempt at saving if you will.

17:44 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s a great little psychological trick is if you manage to reduce a bill, I mean, reducing it by multi hundreds, hundreds of dollars a month is very impressive, but whatever you can manage to do, as you just said, don’t think about that as now available spending money. Divert it towards whatever purpose is, you know, your real priority, which, okay. So you’re building up cash savings during that time. And then, and then you have this short period when you were living with your parents. And now that you’re back paying a higher rent price, how are things going? Are you still saving that little different, that smaller differential? Or how are you thinking about it now?

Weekend Side Hustle Toward Roth IRA Contributions

18:18 Eun Bin: Right. So I guess there are some things that have changed. I also, in addition to moving to a more expensive housing in 2020, I also got a weekend job that pays about 700, 800 a month. So I guess that kind of helps offset that a little bit, but again, I still treat my real rent in my brain as being in the mid 15 hundreds. So every like excess of my rents up to 1550, I just put away. Before I had my Roth IRA account, I just would put it in my high yield savings account. But now I just funnel that to my Roth IRA account for a regular contribution throughout the year.

19:07 Emily: Awesome. Yeah. Well, we will come back I think to the Roth IRA in a moment, but now I’m curious about this weekend job that pays so well. Is this something pandemic-related?

19:19 Eun Bin: No. So it’s like a high school tutoring and like mentoring job that I just do on the weekends, every Saturday. So it’s just helping students with various topics. Mostly I do like chemistry and calculus, high school level calculus, and just like providing peer support for high school students.

19:41 Emily: That’s very interesting. And is this a W-2 job or are you a contractor, self-employed?

19:46 Eun Bin: Yeah, it’s a W-2 job. Yeah.

19:49 Emily: Wow. Okay. That sounds fantastic. I also tutored for a little bit after college, it seems like it’s a kind of a natural job for a grad student to have, but it’s very interesting that you have it as a W-2 job. And how do you feel like that is like balancing with your role as a graduate student? Like, are you able to keep up, you know, good time management? Does your advisor know about this?

20:11 Eun Bin: My advisor, I may have mentioned, I mean, he does know that I go home every weekend and sometimes like, he takes me to the train station. Like before the pandemic, he would give me rides to the train station. So he is aware of the fact that I go home and I’m not in the lab during the weekends. And this is another one of my psychological tricks, I guess. I need to physically distance myself from whatever that I’m tempted to do, whether if it’s lab, I need to move myself far away so that I’m not tempted to like, keep thinking about it. Oh, should I go into lab and do this or not? So going home on the weekend is another way of like, enforcing like a work-life balance that works for me. Yeah.

How Else Has COVID Changed Your Spending?

20:50 Emily: Yeah, wow. Okay. So you definitely, weren’t going to be in lab anyway, so it’s not affecting that. That sounds really good. Okay. So what are the other ways that like COVID social distancing has changed your spending? I mean, I know it has for mine, but how has it affected yours?

21:05 Eun Bin: So because when I moved back into my parents’ place I did pay them a little bit, a couple hundred dollars just because they were feeding me and housing me, but not like what I was paying out here. But besides that, I really had no other expenditures really. I can’t travel. I can’t go out to eat in restaurants. And really, I would say besides housing, food, just eating out was a majority of my other non-housing expenses. So I naturally got to save a lot in that regard.

21:42 Emily: So you have been eating out less during the pandemic. Because I know that some people are still eating or, you know, getting takeout or whatever the equivalent is quite a lot.

21:50 Eun Bin: Yeah. Right. So, yeah, I pretty much like never ate out for like, at least the first month where it was like really picking up, like the news is like encouraging, Hey, people stay home. Like don’t do so many things outside. And so like early on, like I barely even left the house, for example. Yeah.

22:11 Emily: Okay. So yeah, you just had a lack of outlets for your spending. Like you know some people have been like shopping more, like shopping more online or like maybe they’re subscribing to a few more things for like streaming entertainment. Did any of that have an uptick for you?

22:24 Eun Bin: Yeah. I know a lot of people like signed up for a new Netflix account and stuff for like watching a movie, but I did not do that either. And I didn’t really notice any differences in spending online shopping necessarily. I mean, I didn’t do too much of that to begin with, and it’s not, it’s just not something that I started doing more necessarily, I would say. Yeah.

22:46 Emily: Okay. So you’ve just been stacking up your cash throughout much of the pandemic because yeah. The spending outlets don’t, don’t interest you. And what do you think, like in the future, at some point when spending opportunities are available again, are you going to go back to your prior level of spending or have you made any changes that you’re really happy with and you want to have stick?

23:08 Eun Bin: Yeah. So something that, some things that I realized as a result of, I guess, like my lack of outlets for spending is that I started cooking more at home and that, that truly led me to like I guess, meal options that are cheaper to prepare and also are healthier because I can actually pick what I decide to put in my food instead of if I were eating out, I can’t necessarily do that. And that’s something that I’ve come to appreciate a lot more, doing more cooking healthier. And I think just because I realize this doesn’t mean I’m never going to go out to eat again. Of course, if like friends come over or there’s a special occasion, of course, I will go out to eat once in a while. But I think I’ll try to be, I guess, more conservative in my spending on restaurant dining, I would say. Definitely. Yeah.

24:08 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like the pandemic in that respect has given you an opportunity to expand your skillset, expand your repertoire of, you know, menu items and so forth. And so it’s really kind of, you sort of up-skilled yourself in the cooking department so that the eating out differential is not so attractive.

24:24 Eun Bin: Right. Mhm.

24:24 Emily: Yeah. Gotcha.

Commercial

24:26 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. Taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold your income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2020 tax return, which are available at pfforphds.com/tax. I hope you’ll check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which you can find links to from PF F O R P H D s.com/T A X. It would be my pleasure to help you save time and potentially money this tax season. So don’t hesitate to reach out. Now, back to our interview.

Starting a Roth IRA in 2020 (for 2019)

25:34 Emily: So you mentioned earlier that at some point along this way, you started on a Roth IRA. Can you tell us about deciding to start that and what you did and also when that was?

25:45 Eun Bin: Alright. So honestly, so I have to say, I did not know about Roth IRA. I didn’t know what a Roth was, what IRA was, any of that term until I have chanced upon one of your articles describing compound interest, that was very informative and very eye-opening. So I’m very thankful for that.

26:03 Emily: We will link that in the show notes. I think you’re probably referring to…

26:06 Eun Bin: The $5,000 initial investment one, the compound interest.

26:10 Emily: Yeah, like what you can save during grad school has a $1 million impact on your net worth. Yeah. That’ll be linked from the show notes.

26:19 Eun Bin: Right. So when I first saw that I was like, no way that can be like seven-digit figure. Like, but when I actually did the math out, it’s actually true. I was like, wow, that’s amazing. And that was like the first catalyst I would say. And the second was when there was the announcement that the IRS has delayed the tax filing deadline to July of 2020 for the year 2019. And that also gave you more time to contribute to your 2019 Roth IRA if you desire. And honestly, that delay is what made me think, huh? Should I actually start this thing? It actually gave me time to think about, because that was not on my mind at all before that. And so after having done some more research, like seeing more articles that you had on Roth IRA, and I knew that I had W-2 income and that I had money in my savings account that I can just funnel over to a Roth IRA account when I realized that that’s when I decided here, let’s go for it and start contributing. Yeah.

27:26 Emily: Okay. So if I have the timing on this right, in 2020, you started contributing to your 2019 IRA. And for the listener, just anyone who’s not familiar, you can contribute to your prior year IRA contribution limit, which is currently $6,000 per year. You can contribute up through tax filing day. So, normally, April 15th. In 2020, it became July 15th. So you took, you saw that extra three months as an opportunity to reevaluate and have a little bit more time to fill up that 2019 IRA. So did you end up contributing like a lump sum or did you start dollar cost averaging or what was your strategy?

28:01 Eun Bin: Yeah, so I had about, about like two years worth of IRA contributions from just my savings in a savings account. So I actually had more than $12K in my savings account at the time. So I just, it was like a one lump sum deposit for both the year of 2019 and 2020 that I made in mid-2020 to my Roth IRA.

Roth IRA Contribution Strategy in 2021

28:22 Emily: Wow. All right. So you maxed out two years at once. You’re all set through the end of your, you were all set through the end of 2020 now we’re in 2021. And is your strategy the same? Are you saving up cash and doing another lump sum contribution or have you started contributing on a regular basis?

28:38 Eun Bin: Yeah, so I have a direct deposit set up where I put in about 500 every month into my Roth IRA account. And that should come out to exactly 6,000 in one year. Yeah.

28:48 Emily: Yeah. So you’re on track to max out in 2021 as well. Yeah. Incredible. And did you, so you explained how you went about this in terms of saving up cash and so forth. Were there any other like tricks you want to pass onto the listener about yeah, how to start this process of contributing to an IRA or how to contribute more than they have been before?

29:11 Eun Bin: Right. So, honestly, things like IRA, investing, like 403(b), 401(k), all those things. Like if we are new to it, it can feel really overwhelming. Like if I read an article about this topic, like three years ago, I would be Googling like every other word, like, what is this? What is that? And it can be a lot of information. But I think honestly your resources have been very helpful for me. You have a lot of resources regarding Roth IRA. And so going through them one by one, like slowly digesting, Hey, what’s an IRA, what’s Roth? What are the different types of investment, I guess, products available to you? Just taking the time to digest through it slowly, I think gave me the confidence to go for it, because if you don’t know what it is, it’s hard to put your money into something you don’t know a lot about, right? So I think part of the solution was just to spend the time to learn about this whole IRA, retirement savings investing. Yeah.

30:12 Emily: Yeah. I’m really glad to hear that you used some of my resources and that, that like worked well for you of course, in combination with some other things. Yeah, I agree. It can be really daunting. And I do correspond with a lot of people who, I have, if you subscribe to my email list, there’s a certain point in the sequence where I ask you, what’s your biggest challenge right now in your finances. And if I can help you, I’ll try to, and probably, I don’t know, at least 25% of the responses are, I want to open an IRA and I just don’t know what to do. Like I know it’s important, but what do I do to get from here to there? So I want to mention, I do have a resource available for people who are in that position.

30:48 Emily: I think you probably opened your IRA before I created this resource. So you didn’t actually use it. But it’s inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. So if you go to pfforphds.community and sign up for the community, there’s a challenge in there in the forum called open an IRA, or like open your first IRA, something like that. And so I wrote out like a seven-step process, like every sort of decision point where you need to, you know, figure out what you’re going to do and we need to learn about, and I have resources inside the community like webinars and things I’ve written that sort of support that. So step one, okay. Here’s what it is. Here’s a support item. If you’re not sure about this yet, go watch this or go read this. So I’ve had great feedback from people who have been through that seven-step process and have opened and funded their IRA at the end of it. So if anyone is still sitting on the sidelines, you have money like Eun Bin did, you know, this could be a resource available for you. So pfforphds.community, if you want to check that out.

31:41 Eun Bin: And if you don’t have, like, I mean, I made a lump sum because I had money saved up, but honestly it takes us a little as a couple tens of dollars to make the initial investment. You don’t have to contribute all at once, just little by little and you don’t necessarily have to max out. So do what you can. And I think like, as Emily writes in that one article, 5,000, that’s not even like a maximum of one year’s contribution, but compound interest can do a lot of great things to that 5,000.

Transitioning from NSF Fellowship to W-2 Income

32:08 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for saying that. I love talking about investing and I understand there’s actually been another exciting investment change on for you in 2020.

32:19 Eun Bin: Right. So in 2020 is also when I transitioned from my NSF graduate fellowship to TAships so just regular W-2 income. And after having learned about different like retirement savings options, I started looking into like, what retirement options does UCLA provide for its employees? And I did find that they provide like the 403(b) and so with this, I decided to also contribute like 5% of my pay to this 403(b) account. Honestly, this was, I mean, Roth IRA, I would say is like my primary retirement saving vesicle, but I just wanted to, I guess, try it out. That’s what got me into this. And this is also a way for me to, now that like restaurants are opening back up and there are more opportunities to spend, that’s just another way of me just putting money away so I can’t take it out. That’s how I deal with like managing my savings, I guess, like similar to, I need to physically move myself away from the lab so I don’t think about it. It works the same way for me with money as well. Yeah. So.

33:40 Emily: Absolutely, me too. I love the pay yourself first strategy. I use it myself. I recommend it everywhere. And it’s just because I’m a bit of a spender also. So like, I just want that money, like out. I’m a forced saver, but a natural spender. I think I’ll put it that way. I like saving, but I have to put systems in place to make sure that I do it or else I’m really not going to.

33:58 Eun Bin: I’m exactly the same way.

34:01 Emily: Yeah. That’s so exciting that like you had, you know, you found out that you had the 403(b) access. And this is a good tip for anyone else at UCLA or anyone at any of the UCs, I would imagine. And also just anyone anywhere to check to see if you have access because you know, I don’t think many graduate students can, you know, save the full 6,000 for the IRA and then be looking for their next like savings opportunity. But you have, especially with this like awesome side job, I mean, it seems like you have, you know, plenty of pocket money already, so yeah. So it’s worth looking into, sometimes you’ll be surprised and the answer will be, yes, you do have access to the 403(b). And switching from fellowship to being on W-2 has also come with some tax changes, right?

34:44 Eun Bin: Right. Right. So when I was on the NSF, I know this is a very hot topic that you talk a lot about Emily, like quarterly taxes and filing. So for me, because my parents also run their own businesses, they have to do their own quarterly taxes. Thankfully, like, the CPA who helps with my parents’ finances, they were kind enough to help with mine as well. So that made it a lot less stressful for me. And in terms of like saving, because I know you mentioned in one of your articles, like have a designated savings account for your quarterly taxes. But what helped me in that regard was my actually side job that I had. Because of that excess income I didn’t necessarily, I guess, have to withhold my own taxes, I suppose and whatever I had to pay, I could just pull that from my weekend job money that I had. Yeah. That was enough to cover all my taxes. Yeah.

35:46 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like you, with that additional income, you had enough sort of flexibility in your cashflow to be able to pay that somewhat larger tax bill in a given month. That’s awesome. It’s definitely not the case for most grad students. And that’s why I think that saving up in advance strategy is so critical for, I mean, for most people, right? All these strategies are, if it works for you, great. If it doesn’t like move on from it. And I think one of the themes that, you know, you’ve identified in this interview is that, you know yourself, you know your psychology, at least in a few of these areas, right? You know, what’s going to work for you and you set up systems that help you stay within the boundaries that you, that your like higher thinking self wants you to be in.

36:27 Emily: Whereas like in the moment you might not make that decision, but that’s why you have the boundary in place. So I think that’s an awesome takeaway for the listener to kind of figure out what those tricks are that, you know, are going to work really well for you. They may not be the same as what other people do. That’s okay.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

36:41 Emily: So as we wrap up Eun Bin, thank you so much for this interview, it’s really interesting to hear what’s been going on in 2020 for someone else. I feel like I haven’t had that many interviews that sort of acknowledge that we are in the middle still of a global pandemic. So as we’re wrapping up, would you please tell us your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it could be something that we have already touched on that you want to emphasize, or it could be something completely new.

37:04 Eun Bin: Yeah. So I think based on my experiences, my advice for early career PhD students is number one, do this before you apply. Sign up for Emily’s website, they are very helpful. I wish I had discovered them way earlier in my career. Definitely. And second, like if this is like your first time making like regular income, which it was for me until after I graduated college it can feel very overwhelming to have just a lot of cash than you’re normally used to. So make a budget of like your essential I guess like costs that you need to pay and then like just develop a budget for yourself. And what I did was whatever that was above that beyond the budget, I just put away into a savings account that I can’t touch. But I guess Emily did mention also, but be open to, I guess, experimenting a little bit with your finances and figuring out a strategy that works for you.

38:11 Eun Bin: And do take the time to learn about like saving and investing. I know when you first get into it, for me, it was like, Oh, like investing in like the stock market or like mutual funds. Like what are those things like? How does it work? And like, are you sure that I won’t lose my money this way? I had a lot of these concerns, but I think there’s a lot of really informative articles. I like the one Investopedia, for example, they have a lot of really informative articles that are friendly to beginners and combined with Emily’s various articles. I think it is a steep learning curve but it is something worth putting your time into, I would say. Yeah.

38:53 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. And the thing about learning about investing, especially learning about passive investing is there is an initial upfront investment of time of a few hours or 10 hours or 20 hours. Maybe if you want to be really like in depth. But after that, it’s very, hands-off like, it is not something that you have to continually be learning about and maintaining for the rest of your life. You make this initial upfront investment of 10 hours. Read one book, you know, read a couple of my articles, whatever you’re probably going to be pretty set for like a very, very long time on just that amount of information. And that’s the nature of passive investing. And so you have to find the time to make that initial push, but once you’re over that, it’s like, it’s like smooth sailing. It’s so easy after that point. Yeah. Great. Well, Eun Bin, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It’s been a pleasure having you.

39:39 Eun Bin: Yeah. It was a really great time talking about these things with you, Emily. After being a listener for a very long time, it was really exciting to be a guest on this podcast. And I hope this would be helpful for the other listeners.

Listener Q&A: Making Smart Financial Decisions

39:56 Emily: Now, on to the listener question and answer segment. Today’s question actually comes from a survey I sent out in advance of one of my university webinars this spring. So it is anonymous. Here is the question: quote, what smart financial decisions should every PhD student be making with their money? End quote. This is an amazing question. So thank you anonymous for contributing it. I have to acknowledge upfront that not every PhD student is going to be able to make the decisions that I’m about to list as smart financial decisions. And that’s okay. I hope in those cases, that being in a PhD program overall is a smart financial decision for your longterm career. Maybe it’s not a short-term smart financial decision because you’re not being paid that well, but I still hope it is a longterm smart financial decision. Okay. First smart financial decision over the course of your graduate degree is backup, before you get into graduate school, choose a PhD program that will support you well financially so that you can do the rest of things that I’m about to list.

41:05 Emily: Okay, one smart financial decision that you should make as a grad student, but it’s certainly not unique to graduate students is to not abuse your credit cards. Use your credit cards, if you use any, exactly as you would use a debit card and never put a charge on it that you could not immediately pay off with cash from your checking account. That certainly means not carrying any credit card debt, but it also means not giving yourself an advance on your next paycheck through floating charges on a credit card. For further explanation of why this kind of use of credit cards is dangerous and how to get out of it, listen to my episode last week, season eight, episode nine with Elana Gloger. Another smart financial decision during grad school is to prioritize your savings rate. You might direct that savings rate toward different purposes throughout the course of graduate school.

42:00 Emily: Maybe it’s going to be cash savings. Maybe it’s going to be investing. Maybe it’s going to be debt repayment. But whatever it is, getting that savings rate higher, maybe even in the 10 or 20% or higher ranges, that’s a really smart financial decision. And you can work that savings rate up to those levels that I just mentioned by attacking both sides of the equation, both the earning more and the spending less sides. Now of course, an individual graduate student might have more opportunity on the earning more side, might have more opportunity on the spending less side. It depends on your personal situation, but you can reevaluate both sides. Start with the easier one for you, but eventually get around to thinking about how you might do the other one. On the earning more side, you know, I think you should be consistently applying for outside fellowships that might increase your stipend or for smaller grants that will add on to your stipend or your funding package.

42:59 Emily: Grad students can also try to generate a side income. In many cases, that’s not to say necessarily a side job or a side hustle, which are not accessible to all graduate students, but some kind of side income. On the spending less side, a lot of people are attracted first to tweaking and cutting back in the small and variable expenses in their lives. But that’s actually not where I recommend that you start. I think you should start with the big three expenses that most Americans have, which are housing, transportation, and food, specifically your grocery spending. But start on the fixed side of that. So start with your housing expense to reevaluate is there a way that I can pay less on a monthly basis for housing? Yeah, it might take months or a year to work into that next housing situation, but it’s very worthwhile if you think there is room for reduction right there. On transportation, any fixed expense you can reduce would be amazing. You know, if you own a car, if you have a car payment, how can you reduce or eliminate that? If you presumably pay for car insurance, how could you reduce that expense?

44:03 Emily: Food is the last one of the big three to address. And I suggest that you make long-term sustainable changes to your habits around shopping and eating rather than trying to use willpower in the short-term to reduce your spending. Okay. There are obviously many other budget categories to address after those, but I think you should start with the big ones. Another smart financial decision would be to work the steps in my financial framework. I have an eight-step financial framework that kind of toggles back and forth between building financial security in the form of cash and working to improve your net worth overall through debt repayments and investing. But these things have to come in a certain order.

44:45 Emily: If you go out of order, you can take on more short-term risk. If you want to read more in a lot of detail about my financial framework, you can join the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, pfforphds.community, or sign up for coaching with me, pfforphds.com/get-coaching. The last smart financial decision that I’ll recommend is to not languish in your graduate program. Get out as soon as you can. Really overall, the best thing you can do for your finances is finish that PhD and move on to a higher post-PhD income, whether that’s in a post-doc or a real job. I know there are good reasons to stay in grad school longer related to publishing, related to applying for tenure track jobs, but it’s not a smart short-term financial decision. So again, if you think that the extra year or whatever it is in your PhD program is worth the long-term investment, that’s great. But if you don’t see that ROI on the horizon, just get out as quick as you can. Thank you so much to anonymous for submitting this question. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

46:11 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media with an email listserv or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance, for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Cultivate a Personal Brand to Land Your Next Job or Launch Your Business

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Gertrude ‘Gee’ Nonterah on why and how PhDs and even graduate students should develop a personal brand. Strategically using LinkedIn and Twitter can play a big role in attracting opportunities, including catching the eyes of job recruiters. Gee developed a personal brand that helped her transition from her postdoc position into freelance writing and teaching at a community college. Gee and Emily discuss time management when you are getting a side business off the ground and Gee’s upcoming pivot in her business.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

Teaser

00:00 Gee: You know, in marketing, going back to marketing, they are power words, right? And so, you know, throwing one power word into your value proposition is helpful because like you said, it creates some kind of intrigue and like, Oh, I want to, I want to know more about that. So for me, that power word was sizzling because when you get sizzling, it’s kinda like, Ooh, something really like delicious, or I don’t know, but you usually think about that. So definitely you know, coming up with a power word within that value proposition, within that tagline can be helpful as well.

Introduction

00:38 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode six, and my guest today is Dr. Gertrude “Gee” Nonterah on why and how PhDs, and even graduate students, should develop a personal brand. Gee explains how strategically using LinkedIn and Twitter can play a big role in attracting opportunities, including catching the eyes of job recruiters. Gee developed a personal brand that helped her transition from her post-doc position into freelance writing and teaching at a community college. We discuss time management when you’re getting a side business off the ground and Gee’s upcoming pivot in her business. I have an exciting personal update for you before we dive into this week’s episode. My husband and I submitted our very first offer to buy a home. It felt like a really rushed decision because we were not at all logistically ready to make an offer.

01:39 Emily: We had no agent, no financing, nothing. We saw a unicorn home pop up in our safe search on Friday morning. By Friday night, we had a Redfin real estate agent and were pre-approved for a mortgage. On Saturday, we saw the house. It was booked up with appointments every half an hour all day. So other people definitely recognized its charms. On Sunday, we worked with our agent to submit an offer. Like many other PhDs and millennials, generally, we have put off homeownership for a long time. We are now 35 and have two kids. Basically, we are trying to make our first home our forever home. So there’s a lot of pressure on the process. One of the reasons I’ve been talking so much lately on the podcast about buying a first home during grad school or in one of those earlier career phases is because I wish that I had gotten this first home purchase out of the way before now.

02:33 Emily: So I’d have more experience and insight by the time I reached this forever home purchase. Anyway, I’m recording this on Monday morning. So we don’t yet know if our offer will be accepted or if we’ll do this all over again the next time a unicorn goes on the market. At least we’ll be better set up the next time to make an offer with more of the logistics in place and having been through it once. Thanks for indulging me in that update. I’ll keep you posted periodically regarding this new adventure.

03:01 Emily: This coming Saturday, February 13th, is the next live Q&A call for the workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return (And Understand It, Too!). If you are a funded grad student in the U.S. and a U.S. citizen or resident for tax purposes, this workshop is for you. The IRS will begin processing tax returns on February 12th. So this is an ideal week to get that return ready to submit if you want to get your refund ASAP.

03:28 Emily: Go to pfforphds.com/taxworkshop to join the workshop and plan to attend the live Q&A call on Saturday to clear up any remaining questions that you have. Saturday, February 13th is also the deadline to join the winter 2021 session of The Wealthy PhD. This is a perfect time of year to work on a big financial goal, especially if you decided that 2021 was your year to get on top of your finances or are anticipating a career transition in the coming months. I hope you will consider joining the session if you want to gain financial inspiration, accountability, and actionable knowledge. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD.

Book Giveaway Contest

04:14 Emily: Now it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In February, 2021, I’m giving away one copy of The Simple Path to Wealth by JL Collins, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for April, 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during February will have a chance to win a copy of this book. I’m super excited to read The Simple Path to Wealth in the book club because, confession time, I have not read it before. I’ve recommended the book on many occasions on the strength of the author’s blog and its reputation, but this will be my first time through. I’m looking forward to learning alongside you. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of February from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Gertrude Nonterah.

Would You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

05:24 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Gertrude Nonterah, we’ll call her Gee during the interview. And we are going to discuss something that I don’t think I’ve covered before on the podcast, which is personal branding for academics, as well as Gee’s side hustle as a writer. And so I’m really excited about both these topics, and Gee will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

05:47 Gee: Yes. Thank you, Emily so much for having me on your show. I’m really excited to be here. So, as Emily said, my name is Dr. Gertrude Nonterah. I got my PhD in microbiology and immunology from Temple University School of Medicine back in 2015. And ever since then, I’ve been living in San Diego, California. I started out as a post-doc, worked as a post-doc for about two years and 11 months, and ever since have essentially been running my business. I also do teach at a community college, I have been doing that since the beginning of 2020. But yeah, I’m super excited to be here and to talk about personal branding and leveraging that as an academic.

Defining Personal Branding

06:32 Emily: Okay. So let’s start with a little bit of a definition, because it’s not a term that’s necessarily familiar to everyone. What is personal branding?

06:39 Gee: Right. And I think, you know, there is no one strict definition for personal branding except to say your personal brand is how you want people to perceive you or how you want to be known. And that’s the simplest way I can describe it because we could go into all the technical definitions of branding and all that. But the easiest example that comes to mind is every time you drive into a city and you see those two yellow golden arches that signify McDonald’s, you know it’s McDonald’s. Nobody needs to tell you that a McDonald’s exists there. You just know from seeing that big yellow M that there’s a McDonald’s close by, right? And that’s because over the years McDonald’s has done a great job of branding who they are, what their symbols are, and so on and so forth. And so bringing that to a more personal side, right, where you’re saying, okay, here I am. Here are my qualifications, here are my degrees, here’s my personality. And this is what I would like to be known for and to be hired for potentially if you plan on working in the corporate world. And even if you plan on building a business online or having a side hustle, it is important to build that personal brand, I believe, because it is a foundation that opens the door for many things. And as we go along in this discussion, hopefully I’ll be able to share some stories myself that will be helpful.

Personal Branding in Academia and Beyond

08:07 Emily: Yes, please do. So I think it’s pretty maybe obvious why someone who’s starting their own business would want to cultivate a personal brand. But what about for someone who is a scientist or another kind of academic who wants to either stay in academia or get another kind of employee job, you know, doing what they were trained to do for their PhD? Why is personal branding relevant for that person?

08:27 Gee: Yes. And I realized that this is such a newer concept in the world of academia, right? But I think it’s become important for a few reasons. The reason its become important is because there are a lot of people just like you, even though, you know, those of us that have PhDs only make up about 2% of the population worldwide, right. There is an increasing and growing number of people who are graduating with the same degrees as you. People who have the same qualifications, who have the same educational background, and so on. Right? So, it’s all the same. So I see personal branding as a way for PhDs and academics to stand out from the crowd, right? Because these days when recruiters receive resumes, all they receive is a piece of paper that rattles off your qualifications, right? But then here’s the thing. A lot of recruiters go on places like LinkedIn to check you out before they even give you a call.

09:26 Gee: Right? And imagine being that recruiter, put yourself in the shoes of the recruiter going on, you have 10 resumes, you go onto LinkedIn, and then you find that there’s this one person that’s super active in the topic that, you know, they’re looking for employment in. They’re sharing articles, they’re making very intelligent comments, they’re engaging in conversation. And then the other nine are nowhere to be found, even though they may have a LinkedIn profile, they’re nowhere to be found, right? Just put yourself in the shoes of that recruiter. Which one of these people would you tend to go with? Especially if all their resumes, everything being equal, what makes one of these individuals, I don’t know, of course there’s the interviewing process, which helps, but to be honest, at the very beginning, people are skimming through resumes. People are skimming through your LinkedIn profile or any other online profile you have and personal branding can really help you set yourself apart. Even if you think you’re working in a super boring topic and nobody would be interested in, I really do think that by building that personal brand and building that brand, that people begin to recognize in your field, you can set yourself apart and set yourself up for success as an academic slash PhD, whether you want to stay in academia or not.

Personal Branding Will Make You Memorable, Online or In-Person

10:50 Emily: What I’m taking from that description is that personal branding will at minimum help you be memorable to anyone who comes across your, well, hopefully resume as well, but definitely LinkedIn profile. Or even like in-person networking, maybe when that happens again, or Zoom networking, we’re recording this in December, 2020. Even with in-person networking, I’m sure there’s a way to express your personal brand, even, you know, verbally or with your business card, do people use still use business cards? I’m not sure, but in the way that you interact with someone at like in a networking like capacity, you know, people talk about having like an elevator pitch ready for, you know, what you do, like a one-sentence and you know, a one minute and so forth, that probably also all plays into personal branding. Right?

11:35 Gee: Absolutely. Absolutely, Emily. So like you said, you know, when, as we’re recording this, we’re in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic and nobody is going anywhere, right? We’re not going to do any networking meetings anywhere. And so we don’t even have that opportunity right now. And so I think that this is actually the perfect time for you to start building that strong online brand, because now you don’t have that opportunity. So, you know, in a way, building that run online is your way of networking until we can get back to in-person networking, but yeah, absolutely. A personal brand doesn’t necessarily have to be online. You know, online tools are just easier to access these days in general. But yes, for sure, even as a person that you meet, you know, as somebody that goes in-person networking, you can absolutely establish that personal brand with in-person meetings. Yes.

How Do You Start Developing a Personal Brand?

12:32 Emily: So I really love the idea of using this, you know, COVID-19, the stay at home order period to cultivate specifically your online, personal brand. And then once other opportunities are available to you, you know, take what you’ve developed there and figure out how to express it, you know, in other ways, once in-person, you know, stuff is available again. So would you say that’s the first and like kind of most accessible way to start developing a personal brand is, you know, your website, your LinkedIn profile, and so forth?

13:01 Gee: Well, I think, I think that there’s a step before that. And the step before that is really figuring out what you want your personal brand to be. Now, I believe in building an authentic personal brand, but you know what I mean by what do you want to be known for? What do you, you know, determining what your personal brand is going to be is really thinking about the topics for instance, that you want to establish yourself in. So let’s say that you’re working on lung disease at a major, you know, medical research center, right? And you are on your way out about to get that PhD. What other, have you published papers on the topic? What did you find, you know, as long as your PIs is willing to share after you publish, after you publish, you absolutely share. Right? I know PIs are very protective of research ideas when it hasn’t been published yet.

Think About Your Personality

13:52 Gee: Right? So but if you really want to stay in that lung research lane, then that’s one thing that you can write down. I want to, I want people to associate me with lung research, for instance. Also another thing that I like to think about is your personality, right? Are you an extrovert? Are you an introvert? Are you somewhere in between? Right? It’s good to let that shine through. I know that as academics were really trained to kind of hold back on the personal part of our lives and not share that, but if there are causes you care, you know, you want to, you want to show that. And then if there are causes you care about, you know, you want to share that as well. So, you know, before you even jump into a website, before you even jump onto LinkedIn, sit down and actually write down, what do I want my personal brand to represent?

14:44 Gee: Do you know, there are people that have built a whole brand, not necessarily in academia, a whole brand around very brash talkers, right? And then there are people that have a more softer approach. There are people in between. So which one are you, and is that actually true to who you are? So once you sit down and determine what you would like to be known for so that you can leverage that to getting that dream rule and to getting those interviews and getting, you know, building those relationships with key people in your industry. You really want to sit down and think, what do I want to represent online? Right? And then once you determine that, you can craft everything else around that.

Create a Tagline or Value Proposition for Yourself

15:31 Emily: So I’m thinking, as you’re, as you’re speaking about this, tell me if I am going in the right direction here, I’m thinking of a person almost identifying like a tagline for themselves. Maybe you can give a couple of examples of that, but like I’m Dr. Emily Roberts. I, so for me, I guess my personal brand with Personal Finance for PhDs is I help early-career PhDs make the most of their money. So something really short and simple, easy to remember. Is that kind of what you’re thinking? Like, maybe give a couple examples of that, but then everything else can kind of support that tagline that you’ve identified for yourself.

16:07 Gee: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. So it’s, you know, you’re calling it a tagline and I like to think of it in business terms as a value proposition. Like, what do you, what value do you bring to the world, right? And so, I like to say that I write sizzling content for million-dollar health brands. Like that’s my little tagline that I have, because that’s what I do. I write, I write content for million-dollar health brands. Right. And so you know, whatever it is, you could have a tagline that says, you know, award-winning lung research, or upcoming excited, enthusiastic lung researcher or something. So yes, absolutely. You can choose a tagline for yourself, but it shouldn’t be a tagline that we have to like sit down and have to figure out it should, it should clearly communicate what value you bring to people, right?

17:01 Gee: So in my case, like in your case, you, you talk about Personal Finance for PhDs. It’s absolutely clear what it is that Emily talks about. So if I wanted to find a podcast or resources that help me as an academic with my personal finances, and especially knowing that academics tend to be not paid very well, you know I would go find Emily’s podcast, right? So you want to, you don’t want to be what’s the word you don’t want to be fancy about it. You want to be clear, you can make it a little cute, but make it clear as to what people can expect from your brand and what problems that you potentially solve.

The Power of Power Words

17:41 Emily: Yeah. And I think also going along with that, and this is something, I guess I’ve learned a little bit from like marketing is to give like some kind of intrigue or like a little bit of an open loop or something within that initial one second, you know, face that you’re presenting to the world. Right? Like you said, the word sizzling. Ooh, what does that mean? What does it mean to sizzle? I want to find out more about that, right? So does that like play into it as well? Like enticing people into engaging with you further.

18:09 Gee: You know, in marketing, going back to marketing, they are power words, right? And so, you know, throwing one power word into your value proposition is helpful because like you said, it creates some kind of intrigue and like, Oh, I want to, I want to know more about that. So for me, that power word was sizzling because when you get sizzling, it’s kinda like, Ooh, something really like delicious, or I don’t know, but you usually think about that. So definitely you know, coming up with a power word within that value proposition, within that tagline can be helpful as well. But not always necessary, though.

Don’t Wait Until You Have Your PhD, Start Now!

18:45 Emily: Okay. I feel like you’ve given us a lot to chew on already with this, with this topic of personal branding. Was there anything else you wanted to add onto that?

18:54 Gee: Yes. I wanted to add onto that, that you know, don’t wait. I see, because I teach at a community college. I get to interact with a lot of up and coming, brilliant students. And I recently actually did a presentation on essentially starting to build your personal brand as a student on LinkedIn. And I was amazed at how shocked they were that they could do that as students. And so this is something that a lot of students don’t know, whether they are undergraduate students, PhD, students, even people who have finished their PhDs don’t know about this. And I’m going to kind of plug in LinkedIn here. That LinkedIn is a really powerful place for you to start building your personal brand. It’s, it’s moved on past the days where LinkedIn was sort of like a place you went to dump your resume, and you hope that a recruiter would find you.

19:44 Gee: It is now a place where you can create content, for instance. You can share ideas. You can comment on other people’s blog posts. Twitter is another great place. That’s how me and Emily met. And you know, there’s Academic Twitter and stuff like that. And so getting involved in these niche communities that are discussing topics that you’re interested in and you’re researching can really begin to get you noticed. So don’t wait until, you know, you have your PhD. Start right now. There’s a lot of conversation happening and you should jump into those conversations right now.

Opportunities Once You Develop a Personal Brand

20:21 Emily: And just to kind of add onto that. Once you kind of develop a personal brand and are starting to be known in some niche area, what kinds of opportunities might come your way? You know, maybe you can give an example of how that’s worked for you when you developed your personal brand.

20:38 Gee: So, so good. So once I developed, I’m still developing my personal brand, but once people begin to know you and begin to know that you talk about, you love to talk about certain things. They essentially file you in their heads as that thing. Which is why, again, I talked about the McDonald’s double arches, that the moment you see that, you know, it’s a McDonald’s. So people file that away in their minds. And so when, for instance, an opportunity comes for you to be interviewed on a podcast that is relevant in your niche. People begin to recommend you, right? If there’s an opportunity to speak on a subject, and that opportunity is a paid speaking engagement, people are going to refer you and say, Oh, I know a great person that talks about personal finance, specifically for PhDs. I’d love to refer you to her, right?

Recruiters Pay Attention to Your Social Media

21:27 Gee: When you begin to build those networks and you begin to get known for a specific topic, people file you away in their minds. And when opportunities come, they will refer you without you even asking, without you even knowing that somebody referred you, you know, or somebody mentioned you. So those are some opportunities. Also, as far as jobs go, when you begin to build your personal brand and begin to establish yourself in the minds of people, recruiters do take notice of this. You know, don’t believe the hype that nobody’s watching your social media. People are constantly watching it. And especially on a place like LinkedIn where there may be recruiters looking for people like you to fill positions.

22:11 Gee: And so once you begin to speak on a specific subject or to be a thought leader. I don’t like to use that word very much, but become part of the conversation, I would say, in a particular niche, the recruiters in that niche begin to take notice, because as you begin to build networks online networks with other people, those people can also refer you. All those recruiters can discover you as somebody that is super active, because when people go on LinkedIn to search and LinkedIn has a search algorithm, for instance, and it pulls up people that are maybe relevant to who they are looking for. The more active you are on a platform like LinkedIn, the more likely you’ll show up in the first few search results. So if they’re looking for somebody like you to fill a position, guess what? You get first dibs because you showed up earlier up in the search. So those are just a few of the opportunities that can come. I definitely got some speaking opportunities, opportunities to be on podcasts, even job opportunities have come to me because of the personal brand. So it’s really powerful.

23:17 Emily: Yeah. And I would say, I, I have never done a lot with my like branding, but I think as you said, because the branding, the name of my business is so clear already as to what it is. There’s no ambiguity there. And because I’ve been working in this space for several years, I have also seen all the same things that you just mentioned of, you know, networks, my network, working for me to, you know, bring more opportunities my way, which is incredible. And I’m really thankful for that. So I can see that this, you know, this advice is wonderful for a job seeker, but it’s something that has to start much, much earlier than that. As you were saying, you know, while you’re a student, not too early, go ahead and start cultivating this. Now, maybe you don’t have to be like the most active on LinkedIn.

Pivoting to Something Adjacent

23:59 Emily: Like, you’re just saying, if you, if your goal is not at the moment to show up at the top of searches, but once you’re starting to think in that direction that you need to step it up, right? You need to, you know, become even more active in these ways to show up so that people can find your profile and so forth. But yeah, I can definitely see how this, start cultivating it immediately, basically. And I also have a sense that it’s okay to pivot this a little bit, you know, if your goals change or if you need to, you know, adjust what you’re looking for or what you want to be known for. I think that’s okay, actually. Like people might still have you filed away in their mind as one thing, but going to something adjacent is not too big of a switch, I think.

24:37 Gee: At all, you know, and, and I’ve been, you know, I’m both, you know, in the corporate world, as well as I have a side business. I’m writing and, you know, even creating eBooks and online courses. And I’ve made micro pivots all along that path, right? So I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t even think it’s such a big deal. I’ve even seen people switch completely, switch topics completely. And that’s fine. As long as you don’t switch up on us every six months, right? You know, stick with something for long enough for us to file you away in our minds. But yes, if your goals change, if let’s say, you know, you were working in biotech industry and now you want to go work, you know, as a lawyer. And so you’re pursuing a law degree, that’s fine. You know, it’s like you said, I love the word you use adjacent. Adjacent, but slightly different. It’s fine. It’s absolutely fine to change directions. And over time, people begin to fall in love, not just with your topic, but with you, too. And so they’ll follow along for the journey as well, even if it’s no longer relevant to them.

Commercial

25:45 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. If you know that you want support in accomplishing a big financial goal this spring, I recommend my group coaching program, The Wealthy PhD. You and I will meet one-on-one to identify and plot a course toward your big financial goal. Past participants have opened IRAs, set up systems of targeted savings, started budgeting, systematically implemented frugal tactics, and more. Every week for eight weeks, you’ll participate in a small accountability group that I facilitate. The group will help keep you on track to meet small weekly goals that add up to your big goal. Prospective grad students, this would be a perfect cycle to join as I and the other participants can give you a ton of support and financial insight as you interview and ultimately choose your PhD program. The deadline for registration for The Wealthy PhD is Saturday, February 13th, 2021. Visit pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD to learn more and register today. Now, back to our interview.

Gee’s Side Hustle: Writing

26:56 Emily: I’d love to pivot to talking more about your writing business and you enticed us earlier. So of course, we want to learn more about it. You know, when did you start doing that as a side hustle? How did it become, you know, one of your main things that you do now?

27:09 Gee: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I told you in 2015, I graduated from my PhD and we moved to San Diego, California from Philadelphia PA. And for those of you that don’t know the geography of the United States, Philly and San Diego are on two completely different ends of the U.S. Okay. And they’re also different in terms of the economics. And so when we moved here, we realized really quickly how everything was three or four times more expensive. So even the salary I was going to be getting as a post-doc, I was like, wow, I don’t think this is going to be enough. So, and it wasn’t, to be honest. And so I wanted to find a way to make some extra money. So, because I had been blogging for about a year at that point, I decided to, to somehow, you know, become a freelancer of some sort.

28:04 Gee: So the first thing I did was actually sell social media services. If you’ve listened to me talking on this interview so far, you can tell I’m quite the enthusiast when it comes to social media. I think it’s a powerful tool to build brands. I think it’s a powerful tool to sell your services and products, whatnots. You know, it’s a powerful marketing tool. Anyway, so I began to sell social media marketing services, and I was helping local businesses who are not even in the sciences. They were just local mom and pop businesses that I was helping to build a social media presence. I did that for about two years and then pivoted to freelance writing in 2017. So in 2017, I pivoted to freelance writing and I began to write content for actually personal finance. I wrote content for healthcare companies. I wrote content for e-commerce stores. And so anything I could get my hands on to write, I would write and I would get paid for it. And that became a great side business that allowed us to take care of the financial deficits we were facing with how expensive San Diego was. And, you know, the meager pay I was getting, I was grateful for the pay, but it was meager compared to the living standards here in San Diego. So that’s how I got started.

Wearing Many Hats as a Postdoc: Time Management

29:25 Emily: Yeah. I think that story will probably be familiar to a lot of people in my audience. It is, of course, something I cover quite a bit is in these transitions, how do you figure out is that pay going to be sufficient? Or what am I going to have to do to, you know, make ends meet in a city I’ve never lived in before? That’s a really difficult, you know, kind of nut to crack. And so I think you mentioned, you know, when you introduced yourself that you are, you’re teaching at a community college, you have this freelance writing business, did you wear any other hats, remind me?

29:55 Gee: Oh man, I’m a mom, I’m a wife, you’re all these, and those are full-time jobs. So, so yeah, absolutely. I did wear other hats. And I think maybe this kind of segues into talking about time management.

30:09 Emily: Yeah, please.

30:10 Gee: As far as side hustles and your job are concerned. Yeah. So I don’t think it’s fair to be working on your employer’s time. I think you should carve out time on your own time to do your side hustle. And by and large, I stuck with that. And so usually what would happen would be because I’m mom, because I’m post-doc, because I’m writer and wife, I would allow my, at that time, my son was younger, so he tended to go to bed early. And so by nine, he was in bed. And so between nine and about 11:00 PM or 12 midnight, I’d be working on on writing projects. I’d go to sleep, wake up around six or seven the following day, get ready to go to my postdoc job and then go do that, you know, shindig and then come back and then do the whole thing again.

31:00 Gee: So in those early years it was a lot of, it was, I didn’t have any free time. I hardly had free time. I was using every bit of time I could to to build up some side income so that we could, you know, keep up with the bills. Now, I will say that over time. Yes, it gets tiring, but it’s not going to be like that forever, you know, some motivational speech here, but it’s certainly not always going to be like that where you have to work around the clock. But I do believe that there are seasons of life where you have to make some sacrifices. And for sure, that was a season of life where I made some sacrifices so that, you know, that the bills and everything could get paid at home. So that’s how I manage my time, is I find, I usually worked at night on my side business whilst I worked my regular job during the day.

Time Management in the Present

31:54 Emily: Yeah, I think that is a function of the postdoc position is a full-time job, and it’s not paying you that well. So, you know, for your particular goals of living in a high cost-of-living area, you know, you had to put in the hours. And of course, when you were just beginning with your, you know, the social media stuff and then the freelance writing, you know, I’m sure you’ve increased your rates since then. So your pay was, you know, the lowest for the side for the side income at that point, since you were just starting, and you had the not very well-paid post-doc position. I imagine things look a little bit more rosy now for your time management. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

32:27 Gee: Yes. So right now, because we are, you know, with stay at home orders and, you know, having to social distance because of the pandemic, I’m mostly working from home. So now that dynamic is definitely different. I still work really hard. And I think even a little harder because you have to homeschool as well, right? but I am finding that it’s hard with time management, especially when you’re starting, but nowadays it’s not so hard. Because when I wake up in the morning, I know, like today I know I have this podcast. I know I have to upload certain documents because I have a book bundle sale coming up, you know? So, I do intentionally sit down and plan my days, because I realize if I don’t have anything on a, if I don’t put it on a calendar, it does not exist in my mind. It really doesn’t. So, I use my Google calendar religiously. You know, I also have a bullet journal that I use very diligently and I write down like top three things I want to do in a day. Do I always get everything done? No, but at least having it written down reminds me that it needs to get done. And even if it has to be a day late, I’ll get it done. But being organized in that sense, having Google calendar and then having my bullet journal has been life-changing to say the least. Yeah.

33:47 Emily: Yeah. I would also say for me, my time management skills have leveled up during the pandemic with the kids being at home. And yeah, I find the same thing that I need to assign myself tasks to do certain, you know, block scheduling, right. Like block out time for different things, because it does help keep me on track.

Future Plans for Gee’s Writing Business

34:05 Emily: So, Gee, what are your future plans for your writing business?

34:12 Gee: Yeah, absolutely. So actually this is so interesting because recently I recorded an episode where I was talking, a podcast episode where I was talking about pivoting away from freelance writing in 2021. So I am pivoting away from it because, first things first, I did get a new position with a company writing content still. So I’m still going to be doing that, still be writing content, just not in a freelance capacity anymore. But, I still have the personal brand that I built online. I still have my YouTube channel. I still have my podcast. There are people that are very tuned into that and very avid listeners and watchers of my content. So I’m going to keep doing that, producing my content. But one of the things that, you know, producing podcasts and creating YouTube videos or any kind of content online does for you is when you build this audience, usually at the point they want to buy things from you. So I do have e-books and digital products currently, and also, I, you know, they do ask for coaching and they like, okay, Gee, you’ve been doing this and I want you to coach me too. So I’m moving more into just selling digital products and doing coaching in the time that I do have where I’m not writing for the company that I’m going to be working with. But I am pivoting away from freelance writing, but not away from writing itself. And I’m excited for those new opportunities. Yeah.

Where Can People Find You?

35:40 Emily: Yeah. Congratulations on the new position. I mean there are definitely advantages to freelancing, but the stability is nice as well to know where your paychecks are going to be coming from. Will you please let people know where they can find you if they’ve really, you know, loved this interview?

35:55 Gee: Absolutely. So if you want to find me, I actually, the first place you can find me is I have a free newsletter that I send out every week. You can go to GeeNonterah.com/newsletter and you can download a free checklist of how to, if you’re interested in becoming a freelance writer, even if you’re not, you can sign up still. But one of the freebies I give away is this checklist whereby you can get your first paying client. I’m also very active on LinkedIn. So if you just type in my name, Gertrude Nonterah PhD, you’ll find me and also on Instagram. So @GeeNonterah you’ll find me there.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD?

36:34 Emily: Perfect. And Gee, I conclude all of my interviews with asking my guests, what is your best personal finance advice for another early-career PhD?

36:45 Gee: Oh man. I wish. So this is such a great question. It’s going to be slightly different from everything I just talked about, but I wish I knew more about investing when I was an early-career PhD. I wish I did. And so ask about your 401(k)’s ask about, you know, find out about IRAs, read about it, you know, listen to Emily’s podcasts, but investing is such a great way to make money that I feel like it’s the best hidden secret that is out in the open, you know? And so, don’t sleep on that. Even as, you know, your paycheck from your job is great, but really looking, and then your 401(k) is also good, but look into even investing for yourself and learning the ropes of investing because those can pay huge rewards. So that’s one thing I wish I knew and something I’m currently doing and something that I’m always telling people to, to look into, especially for those of us that are PhDs and you know, in our early careers as academics.

37:48 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. Obviously investing is one of my favorite topics to talk about. So I love that you brought it up. I’ll actually tell people who are interested in the crossover between what we’ve talked about today. If you are a side hustler, if you are a business owner, if you are self-employed and you were interested in investing for retirement and your IRA is not sufficient, and maybe you don’t have a, you know, 403(b) or 401(k) through your workplace, please check out my Community, Personal Finance for PhDs Community, because I have a course in there on retirement investing vehicles for self-employed people. So if you’ve maxed out your IRA because you have this fantastic side income going on, but you want to do more, I discuss the different options available to you as a business owner for retirement investing. So pfforphds.community, if you want to check that out.

38:35 Emily: Gee, this has been a fantastic interview. Thank you so much for giving it. I’m so glad we found each other on Twitter. Yes. Thank you so much for coming on.

38:43 Gee: Thank you so much, Emily.

Listener Q&A: Paying Off Debt vs. Investing

38:44 Emily: Now, onto the listener question and answer segment. Today’s question actually comes from a survey I sent out in advance of one of my university webinars this past fall. So it is anonymous. Here is the question. What is the balance between paying off debt now and investing some money elsewhere? I love these questions that are like, what is the most optimal financial step for me to take? It’s definitely a good sign that the questioner has some cashflow available to do one of these two things, investing or paying off debt. To answer these kinds of questions, I refer to the financial framework that I developed for early-career PhDs. So I’ll tell you what the framework has to say about this question, but just so you know, when I do work one-on-one with individuals, the framework is only a guideline and we do often find a more individualized solution. So this question presupposes that the thing to do with the money right now is paying off debt or investing.

39:48 Emily: However, my framework has three types of steps: debt, repayment, investing, and saving up cash. So the first thing for this questioner to do is to assess all these different areas of finances. How much cash do you have on hand right now, and what is it for? What are the different types of debt you have, including the interest rate and the payoff balance? And do you already have some investments going for you, or is this something you’re starting for the first time? The very first step in my financial framework is to put in place a starter emergency fund. That’s the fund that’s going to help you pay for life’s minor emergencies that happen on, you know, maybe like a yearly basis. Basically, it’s the fund that’s going to keep you from racking up credit card debt. So that amount of savings should be somewhere between $1,000 and two months of expenses, depending on how large your financial footprint is and your risk tolerance.

40:42 Emily: Step two in the framework is to pay off all of your high-priority debt. In my book, high-priority debt is credit card debt, even if it’s at a 0% promotional balance, IRS debt, and any debt that is above somewhere between six to 8% in interest rate. Where you fall in that six to 8% is up to you and your risk tolerance. Now, if your debt includes student loans that are currently in deferment, I would not put those in step two. I’d push them off to a later debt repayment step. So if the person asking this question has any kind of debt that is high priority, the answer to the question is pay off that high-priority debt completely. As soon as you can. Now, let’s say that person doesn’t have that type of debt or has already taken care of it. Step three, in the financial framework is to save up for near-term irregular expenses.

41:35 Emily: This would likely include setting up a system of targeted savings, which I talked about in season seven, episode 15. Once you have that cash savings in place, we’re ready for step four. Step four is to start to invest for retirement or to resume investing for retirement if that was on pause during those first three steps. Now, in most of the steps in my financial framework, you have to do a discreet thing, save up X amount of money, pay off XYZ debts. Step four is different because in step four, you’re going to get your savings rate up to a certain percentage, and then you can move on to step five, but you’re going to keep saving that percentage into your retirement accounts going forward. So let’s say that the questioner has paid off or never had any high-priority debt, and they’re investing up to a minimum level in step four.

42:25 Emily: Once they’ve done those two things, it’s time to move on to step five, which is another kind of debt repayment step. And as I said, there are eight steps overall in the framework. But most people I work with do tend to fall somewhere in those steps one to four range. So I hope this answer provided you with some insight into my process of deciding on which financial goal is optimal at any given time. You can find an ebook that I wrote all revolving around this financial framework called The Wealthy PhD inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. You can find the Community at pfforphds.community. So if you join there, you can read the ebook, The Wealthy PhD, and read all about this framework and how to use it. And if you want to go even further, we’re enrolling for my group coaching program, The Wealthy PhD, and the deadline to enroll is February 13th.

43:17 Emily: I do use this framework when I help everyone in the program decide on what their big financial goal should be during the program. Although, as I said earlier, when it comes down to working with an individual, we often, you know, tweak this framework for their personal preferences. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

43:45 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

Turn Your Largest Liability into Your Largest Asset with House Hacking

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In this episode, Emily and her guest, Sam Hogan, explain how house hacking can benefit graduate students and early-career PhDs. House hacking is when you purchase a property, live in it, and rent out part of it. While not possible in every housing market, house hacking is within reach for many graduate students and certainly postdocs and PhD with Real Jobs. In the first part of the episode, Emily teaches some of the most salient concepts from The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop. She also presents some real numbers from potential house hacks in college towns. In the second part of the episode, Emily interviews Sam Hogan, a senior loan officer at Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage) who specializes in writing mortgages for graduate students and PhDs, especially those with fellowship income. Sam gives additional details about how an early-career PhD can qualify for a mortgage for a house hack.

This post contains affiliate links. Thank you for supporting Personal Finance for PhDs!

Links Mentioned in This Episode

grad student house hack

Teaser

00:00 Sam: The best example, which has happened I would say many times over, is in North Carolina. One student purchasing that, you know, the regular stipend amount of around $32,000 a year, he bought it at $200,000, put $10,000 down was still within his debt-income ratio. And when he started off the process, he did say he was going to house hack.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 8, Episode 4, and I have a different episode structure for you today. The entire episode is devoted to exploring house hacking, which is when you purchase a property, live in it, and rent out part of it. We’re going to focus on how house hacking can benefit graduate students and early-career PhDs, and how it is possible for more people than you might expect. In the first part of the episode, I teach some of the most salient concepts from The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop. I also point to a few real examples of potential profitable house hacks that I looked up this week. In the second part of the episode, I interview Sam Hogan, a senior loan officer at Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage) who specializes in writing mortgages for graduate students and PhDs, especially those with fellowship income.

01:26 Emily: Sam gives additional details about how an early-career PhD can qualify for a mortgage for a house hack. Sam has been featured on two previous episodes and is now an advertiser with Personal Finance for PhDs. Reading this book came at a great time for me, actually, as my husband and I are taking steps to buy our first home within the next few months. It’s given me a different perspective on real estate investing for sure and the value of your primary residence. I’m very excited to share this material with you. Our giveaway contest is actually for the book Sam and I read for this episode! In January 2021, I’m giving away one copy of The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop (affiliate link—thanks for using!), which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community Book Club selection for March 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during January will have a chance to win a copy of this book.

02:18 Emily: If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate AND REVIEW this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at emily at PFforPhDs dot com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of January from all the entries. You can find full instructions at PFforPhDs.com/podcast. The podcast received a review this week from Emily B. The review reads: “This podcast has been so helpful to me as I apply to graduate school!! So many of these things aren’t talked about but Emily is great at explaining all of these concepts and interviewing people who have great advice.” Thank you to Emily B for this lovely review, and best of luck to you this spring! Without further ado, here’s my review of the concepts in The House Hacking Strategy.

Review of The House Hacking Strategy

03:08 Emily: The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop (affiliate link—thanks for using) was published in 2019 through Bigger Pockets Publishing. Bigger Pockets is a popular online real estate investment community. House hacking, which I’ll define momentarily, is popular among this community, and Curelop presents a very enthusiastic and rosy picture of the strategy. For the duration of this episode, I want you to allow yourself to dream a little. I know and you know that house hacking is not possible or desirable for many graduate students and PhDs for a variety of reasons. But just for the next few minutes, I want you to suspend your doubts. We’ll come back to reality in a little bit and talk over some numbers. For the moment, instead of confirming for yourself all the reasons that you can’t house hack, ask yourself, “How and when might I be able to make this strategy work for me?” If you are convinced that you want to house hack, you may just find that a fire is lit underneath you and you can make it happen sooner than later.

04:07 Emily: In fact, I did some searching on Redfin and Craigslist and found three properties near three R1 universities that I think might be profitable house hacks for single graduate students. I’ll present those numbers after I go through some of the material from The House Hacking Strategy. I’m going to start my teaching in the same place that Curelop starts his book. I’ll read some quotes and summarize some paragraphs from pages 23 and 24, the start of Chapter 1. Quote “What is your largest expense? The majority of the United States population would not hesitate to reply with “housing.” Whether you are paying rent or paying down a mortgage alongside with taxes, insurance, maintenance, and all the other expenses associated with owning a home, your house is likely what you spend most of your money on each month.” End quote.

Definitions: Asset and Liability

04:54 Emily: Curelop then shares the definitions that Robert Kiyosaki uses in his books, which is that an asset is anything that puts money into your pocket every month, and a liability is anything that takes money from you every month. Under this definition, your home is a liability, whether you own or rent. Quote “Arguably, the biggest misconception that most Americans have is that their home is their largest asset. When, in fact, it is their largest liability. However, there are some exceptions. A few of them are exemplified at the conclusion of each chapter. You will read fellow house hackers’ stories in this book who have used strategies outlined here to turn what could be their largest liability into their largest asset. “They strategically designed their lifestyle so housing is not their largest expense. As a matter of fact, through the strategies I talk about in this book, they have completely eliminated housing as an expense and they make money from their living situations every single month. And yes, their lives look just like yours. From the outside, you would not think that they are any different because they have days jobs, errands to run, and families to care for.” End quote.

Turning Your Largest Liability Into Your Largest Asset

06:03 Emily: Turning your largest liability into your largest asset—that is an incredibly powerful idea. How do they do that? Let’s define house hacking. House hacking is when you buy a home, live in it, and rent out part of it. The classic house hack, according to this book, is buying a multifamily property (a duplex, triplex, or four-plex), living in one unit, and renting out the others. In that case, your tenants are your neighbors. Another variation of house hacking is to buy a single-family home and rent out the bedrooms that you do not occupy. In that case, your tenants are your roommates. There are all kinds of reasons that house hacking is powerful from a real estate investment standpoint, which The House Hacking Strategy covers very well. I’m taking a different approach, which is speaking to people who are not necessarily enamored with real estate investing, but rather want to find a way to reduce or eliminate their largest monthly expense: their rent or their mortgage payment.

07:01 Emily: Whenever I speak about frugality and reducing expenses, I ask that people first consider how they can reduce their housing expenses, even though accomplishing that can be difficult and expensive upfront. I’ve published through this podcast and highlighted in my seminars creative strategies such as serving as a resident advisor, living in subsidized or low-income housing, renting your home on AirBnB, and house hacking, although I haven’t used that term before. I published two full interviews with grad students who rent out rooms in their homes, which I’ve linked from the show notes, and some of my other guests have mentioned in passing that they use the strategy.

Benefits of a Successful House Hack

07:37 Emily: If you set up a profitable house hack, you will either: 1) Bring in enough rent to completely cover your mortgage and reserves, which is the money you need to put aside monthly for future home maintenance and vacancies, or 2) Bring in enough rent that your personal housing expense is less than what you would have paid in rent had you not house hacked. If you were to move out and rent your room, the total rent from the property would be more than the mortgage and reserves. A minimally successful house hack reduces your personal housing expense. A very successful house hack puts money in your pocket on a monthly basis. I believe house hacking is a hugely powerful strategy for PhD students and a great one for postdocs and other early-career PhDs. It’s accessible to many more early-career PhDs than those who currently pursue it.

08:26 Emily: I’m going to focus in this episode on single PhD students and their numbers since they are the most difficult case. If you have a postdoc income or Real Job income, getting into a house hack will be easier, and likewise if you have two incomes to work with instead of one. I want to throw in a word of caution that this episode is just a short summary of part of a book that is not super in-depth either. So while I want to encourage you to look into this strategy, you must do your due diligence in your local market before taking the step to actually buy a home.

Why is House Hacking a Great Fit for Grad Students?

08:59 Emily: So why is house hacking a great fit for graduate students? First, a traditional grad student fits perfectly into the ideal demographic of house hackers: people without children who are willing to live with other people. That’s not to say that you can’t house hack if you do have children, but it might look different for you. Second, a grad student basically by definition lives near a university, which boasts a large pool of potential tenants. I think it would be straightforward to set up a house hack where all your tenants are fellow grad students, the way Dr. Matt Hotze from Season 3 Episode 3 did. Third, grad students have limited avenues for increasing their incomes. Yes, it is possible and you should do what you can within the rules of your visa, department, funding, etc. House hacking is a way to increase your income without violating the letter or spirit of any of the restrictions placed on you and will almost certainly take less time than a side hustle for what you earn.

Curelop’s Five House Hacking Strategies

09:56 Emily: Curelop presents five house hacking strategies. On one side of the spectrum, you have the strategy that necessitates the smallest lifestyle change but is also the least profitable. On the other side of the spectrum, you have the strategy that is the most profitable, but that also necessitates the largest lifestyle change. From least profitable to most profitable, the strategies are: 1. Rent out an accessory dwelling unit on your property 2. Purchase a multi-unit property and renting out the units you do not occupy 3. Purchase a home and rent out the rooms you do not occupy 4. Rent out your own bedroom and sleep in your living room 5. Rent out your whole residence and live in a trailer or RV in your driveway If you’re like me, strategies 4 and 5 do not sound very appealing! I’m going to focus on strategy 3 in this episode, but it’s perfectly fine if another strategy is the best fit for you.

House Hacking: Ongoing Costs

10:56 Emily: Let’s talk more about both sides of the house hacking ledger now, first your ongoing costs and then how you make money. On the costs side, every month you need to make your mortgage payment, which consists of principal paydown of your loan, interest, property tax, homeowner’s insurance, and probably private mortgage insurance or PMI. You might also have a homeowner’s association payment. Another cost, which is irregular, is the cost of maintenance and repairs on the home and also renovation if you choose to do that. Curelop recommends putting aside every month a few hundred dollars—what he calls reserves—for home repairs and also to help you make your mortgage payment when you are between tenants. He also says you should have $10,000 at a minimum in your reserves to start with. If you don’t have $10,000 yet, he suggests securing access to a line of credit in case something comes up that you can’t cover with your existing reserves.

House Hacking: Net Worth Increases

11:41 Emily: That covers the ongoing costs of operating your house hack. I’ll get to the up-front costs a little later. Now for the exciting part: how your net worth increases while you house hack. First and most importantly, you will collect rent from your tenants. As I said earlier, this rent should either completely cover your mortgage payment and reserves or at least reduce your personal housing expense. Second, each month as you make your mortgage payments, you will pay down the principal balance of your loan. Now, in the first few years after you take out the loan, only a very small fraction of your payment goes to principal due to the amortization schedule; the great majority goes to interest, tax, insurance, etc. So principal paydown is a relatively small factor early on in the mortgage. Third, your home is likely to appreciate in value over time. When you sell, it will probably be worth more than what you bought it for. Appreciation comes in two forms, natural and forced.

Natural and Forced Appreciation

12:48 Emily: Natural appreciation is the general increase in real estate prices over time. According to Curelop, historically real estate has appreciated 6% per year on average across the US. Now, as we all remember from the housing crisis, different real estate markets do appreciate at different rates, and depreciation is also possible if you get really unlucky with your timing. So while natural appreciation is likely to be in effect over the long term, you can’t count on it over the short term. Forced appreciation is when you do something to a property to increase its value, such as finishing a basement to add bedrooms and a bathroom. You of course have much more control over forced appreciation than natural appreciation. If you choose your renovation judiciously, you can increase the value of your property by more than what you spent. Appreciation can rival rent collection as the most positive factor in increasing your net worth through house hacking, but it’s only realized when you sell the home. Fourth, there are tax benefits to rental real estate. Curelop doesn’t go into much detail on this in the book and I’m not familiar with them so I won’t elaborate either, but this is another way that your house hack is less costly to you than owning a home that you don’t rent out.

Seven Common Objections to House Hacking

14:00 Emily: I hope the financial advantages of house hacking have sufficiently excited you about the idea. Curelop also presents and then counters seven common objections to house hacking. I’ll list all seven, but only go into the arguments against a few of them. Just know that if the others are hurdles for you, he does address them in the book. 1. House hacking is more work than renting. 2. When you house hack, you will share space with other people. 3. You need to keep a professional relationship with your tenants. 4. You have to live in an investment property, which might not be as nice of a location as you could afford. 5. The housing market could tank. 6. You have to put more money down to house hack than your up-front rental costs. 7. Your tenants might fail to pay you. My overall observation of this list is that these objections are all valid. They all have at least a kernel of truth or a possibility of occurring. I think it would be really helpful to identify every adverse event that could occur and come up with a plan for how you would respond. Going through that exercise might make you feel better about moving forward with house hacking instead of just being generally nervous about the downside risk.

Counterpoints to Some Common Objections to House Hacking

15:11 Emily: I want to add some thoughts to a few of the aforementioned objections. 2. “When you house hack, you will share space with other people.” Having roommates is pretty standard in graduate school for single people. Even if you could afford to rent a place on your own, it wouldn’t be strange to choose to have roommates instead. I’ve also known plenty of PhDs who continue to live with roommates even after they couple up or get married. I think this is less of an objection for our population than others, at least up until the point that you have children. 3. “You need to keep a professional relationship with your tenants.” and 7. “Your tenants might fail to pay you.” My fantasy house hack for a graduate student is to rent to other grad student peers and to be friends or at least friendly with your tenants. It is important to maintain professionalism at least within the bounds of your landlord-tenant relationship. You should be a great landlord, responsive and fair. I hope your tenants will respond in kind and not try to take advantage of your personal relationship. Curelop devotes a whole chapter to screening tenants, which as a new landlord I think you should follow to the letter. Of course, this book was published prior to 2020. The possibility of tenants not paying and not being able to evict them probably didn’t occur to many landlords, but now it’s on everyone’s radar. As a house hacker, you should make sure that you are financially capable of paying the mortgage even if your tenants are unable to pay rent for an extended period of time. If your university offers funding guarantees, I think that’s worth asking about on a rental application. You can’t prevent a tenant from misusing their money to the extent that they are unable to pay rent, but you can make sure that their income is reliable.

Four Considerations to Purchasing a House Hack

16:56 Emily: What does it take, financially, to purchase a house hack? Is it feasible where you live now? Let’s consider four elements. 1. The cost of properties appropriate for house hacking 2. The price to rent a room 3. Your stipend or salary 4. Your savings First, how expensive of a home could you buy on your income or your household’s income? Interest rates are so low now that rules of thumb like “Your mortgage shouldn’t exceed three times your income” have become outdated. Really, I’m asking two different questions here: 1) How large of a mortgage will you qualify for? and 2) How much of a mortgage would you feel comfortable taking out? Some house hackers will take out the largest mortgage they qualify for because they are counting on rental income to help pay it, but you might be more conservative, as I discussed before.

17:48 Emily: I’m going to talk this over with Sam Hogan a bit more in the second half of this episode. According to what he told us in our last interview, Season 5 Episode 17, if an applicant has no debt and excellent credit, they could qualify for a mortgage of four to five times their yearly income. If you have debt or merely good credit, the multiple will be smaller. Now, whether taking out that much debt is prudent is up to you. If you weren’t house hacking, I would say no, but if you are, it depends on your risk tolerance. Now you have a ballpark idea of the size of mortgage you could take out. You of course need to work with a mortgage originator like Sam to calculate your exact number. But going forward with the ballpark number, are homes available for less than or around that mortgage amount? Or is it way too low to buy anything? You can use a site like Redfin or Zillow to figure out what a house hack would cost you. If you’re looking for a townhouse or single-family home to house hack, perhaps you would look for a 2 bedroom place at a minimum. Broadly speaking, the more bedrooms you can purchase, the more rental income you’ll be able to generate.

Consider Cost-of-Living

18:56 Emily: If you live in a high cost of living area and you’re trying to purchase a home with one grad student income, you are likely to find that everything is out of reach. It’s disappointing, but don’t give up on the idea of house hacking for later in life. If you find that you can maybe afford to buy something, the next question is whether a house hack, in particular, is viable. Can you rent out the bedrooms that you won’t occupy for enough to at least reduce if not eliminate your housing cost? The answer is not an automatic yes for the type of home you can afford. If you’re not familiar with rental prices by the room in your area, check Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace. Having verified that house hacking is viable on your income and in your rental market, we come to the last piece of the puzzle, which is the down payment and closing costs. In the interview with Sam coming up next, we discuss the down payment requirements of various mortgage programs. If you’re not a veteran, you’re looking at 3% at minimum, but Sam suggests up to 10% in some cases. So for a low-cost property, the down payment could be as little as a few thousand dollars.

Five-Year Rule of Thumb

20:02 Emily: Curelop states in the book that closing costs are typically paid by the seller, not the buyer, so the money the buyer has to come to the table with above the down payment is rather minimal, perhaps a few hundred or a thousand dollars. Even if you don’t have the savings required to fund a home purchase in your bank account right now, how quickly could you come up with the money if a fire were lit underneath you? Over the course of a year, a vigorous side hustle, a higher-paying fellowship, or a summer internship could do the trick. Since I mentioned a year, I want to address the five-year rule of thumb. I know that many grad students and postdocs feel a ticking clock when it comes to considering real estate purchases. Many of us expect to move with every new career stage we attain. The five-year rule of thumb implies that you may not even break even if you buy a home instead of renting during grad school or your postdoc because of the high transaction costs that come with buying and selling and that you can’t count on natural appreciation over short time frames.

21:00 Emily: What I found interesting about The House Hacking Strategy is that it concentrates on the return on investment that can be achieved within one year. The reason for the focus on that timeline is that owner-occupancy mortgage loans require you to live in the property for one year. An aggressive house hacker might move every year to a new house hack, collecting rental real estate along the way instead of selling. The point that I want you to take from this is that you don’t have to listen to rules of thumb or rely on appreciation to overcome the transaction costs of real estate. Instead, you can use the rental income from your tenants. A house hack might be viable for you even if you plan to remain in your current city for only a couple of years—you just have to look at the numbers. Also, it’s important to plan your exit before you purchase your house hack. Are you open to turning it into a fully rented property after you move? Do the numbers still work if you have to hire a property management company? Or if you are sure that you will sell, you need to account for the high closing costs in your calculations.

Thought Exercise: Three Example House Hacks

22:02 Emily: Now let’s get into those numbers I mentioned earlier! As a quick exercise, I looked at the list of universities I’ve given or am scheduled to give webinars for in the 2020-2021 academic year to see whether house hacking was viable in those cities and what the numbers might be. Here was my process: 1) I searched Redfin for the university’s city with a max asking price of $150,000. I typically set a 3 bedroom search minimum, but sometimes adjusted up to four or down to two. I picked a house within a few miles of the university, something that looked move-in ready and not the cheapest available. 2) I searched craigslist for the area the house was in to get an idea of rental prices by the room and picked a price in the middle to low end of what I saw. 3) I went back to Redfin to look at the estimated mortgage payment. I set that the buyer would put 5% down and get a 3% interest rate.

23:03 Emily: I’m now going to share with you the properties and numbers I found in three of the cities I looked at. Of course, this was a cursory search, so my selections and numbers might be off due to a lack of local insight. Just consider this a ballpark estimate. Also, please note that I’m doing this exercise in January 2021, and both the renting and buying markets are really weird right now due to the pandemic and it being outside of the high home buying season. If you do this search even just a couple of months from now, it might look totally different, let alone a couple of years.

23:39 Emily: Example #1 is in East Lansing, Michigan, near Michigan State University. The property I picked is a 3 bedroom, 2 bath, 1500 square foot single family home, and the asking price is $89,900. A 5% down payment is $4,495, and the monthly mortgage payment would be $752. I picked $400 per month as the rental price per room. That means that renting out two of the bedrooms covers the mortgage payment while you live in the third. After setting aside a couple hundred dollars per month for reserves, you have reduced your own housing cost by about $200 per month. Over the course of one year, assuming that your irregular expenses did not exceed your reserves, you would have reduced your own housing expense by $2,400. Over five years, that turns into reducing your own housing expense by $12,000, and that’s without taking into account possible rent increases.

24:43 Emily: Example #2 is in Louisville, Kentucky, near the University of Louisville. The property I picked is a 4 bedroom, 2 bath, 1300 square foot single-family home, and the asking price is $134,000. A 5% down payment is $6,700, and the monthly mortgage payment would be $777. I picked $500 per month as the rental price per room. That means that renting out two of the bedrooms covers the mortgage payment and perhaps all of the reserves. You would live for free in the third bedroom and pocket the $500/month rent from the fourth bedroom. Over the course of one year, assuming that your irregular expenses did not exceed your reserves, you would have taken in $6,000 in rent above your mortgage payment and reduced your own housing expense by $6,000. Over five years, that turns into $30,000 in rent collected and reducing your own housing expense by $30,000, and that’s without taking into account possible rent increases.

25:48 Emily: Example #3 is just outside St. Louis, Missouri, near the Washington University in St. Louis. The property I picked is a 4 bedroom, 2 bath, 1800 square foot single-family home, and the asking price is $150,000. A 5% down payment is $7,500, and the monthly mortgage payment would be $925. I picked $600 per month as the rental price per room. That means that renting out two of the bedrooms covers the mortgage payment and perhaps all of the reserves. You would live for free in the third bedroom and pocket the $600/month rent from the fourth bedroom. Over the course of one year, assuming that your irregular expenses did not exceed your reserves, you would have taken in $7,200 in rent above your mortgage payment and reduced your own housing expense by $7,200. Over five years, that turns into $36,000 in rent collected and reducing your own housing expense by $36,000, and that’s without taking into account possible rent increases.

26:53 Emily: Now, if those numbers don’t motivate some of you in low- to medium-cost of living areas, I don’t know what will! You can literally buy an income stream that will benefit you to the tune of thousands or over ten thousand dollars per year for a few thousand dollars, an extra hour here or there, and the willingness to take a risk. And that’s not even counting the principal paydown, tax benefits, and potential appreciation! Keep in mind that all of my examples are completely made up. I’m just trying to ballpark some numbers and show that this is possible in some places on one grad student’s income. Curelop publishes the numbers of a real house hacker at the end of each chapter. For transparency, I didn’t examine every city on my list of candidates. I skipped the California ones, I only briefly glanced at Austin, Texas and Boston, Massachusetts to verify that $150,000 won’t buy you anything near the universities right now. I went down a road a bit in Providence, Rhode Island before crossing it off my list. But I thought these three examples were good ones. Purchasing may very well be possible in those other markets if you have more than a single grad student stipend to work with, or perhaps at a time of year when there is higher volume on the market. After the commercial break, I’ll be back with my interview with Sam Hogan.

Commercial

28:15 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you know that you want support in accomplishing a big financial goal this spring, I recommend my group coaching program, The Wealthy PhD. You and I will meet one-on-one to identify and plot a course toward your big financial goal. Past participants have opened IRAs, set up systems of targeted savings, started budgeting, systematically implemented frugal tactics, and more. Every week for eight weeks, you’ll participate in a small accountability group that I facilitate. The group will help keep you on track to meet small weekly goals that add up to your big goal. Prospective grad students, this would be a perfect cycle to join as I and the other participants can give you a ton of support and financial insight as you interview and ultimately choose your PhD program. The deadline for discounted early bird registration for The Wealthy PhD is Saturday, January 30th, 2021. Visit pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD to learn more and register today. Now, back to our interview.

Welcome Back, Sam! How Can People Find You?

29:26 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today my brother, Sam Hogan. Sam is a Senior Loan Officer at Prime Lending (Note: Sam now works at Movement Mortgage), and we’ve been having conversations over the last several years about how grad students and postdocs, especially, can get mortgages when their income is maybe it’s fellowship instead of employee. Maybe it’s temporary instead of a long-term thing. We’ve had these conversations before. So if you’re, you know, liking what you hear today from Sam, please go back and listen to season two, episode five, that’s a two-part interview. The first part is with a person who actually house hacked, Jonathan Sun. And then the second part of the interview is with Sam. And then Sam was also back in season five, episode 17, where we talked a lot more about this issue of fellowships and being able to qualify for a mortgage with fellowship income. So Sam’s back today to talk about house hacking. I gave him an assignment. I told him to read The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop along with me so that we could have a conversation about it and get his perspective as a loan officer. So Sam, welcome back to the podcast.

30:32 Sam: Thank you for having me happy to be here.

30:34 Emily: Can you upfront say your contact information, everything for the audience?

30:38 Sam: Yep. My cell phone is (540) 478-5803. And then my email is [email protected].

What Did You Think About the Book?

30:48 Emily: Yeah. And you’ve been getting a lot of referrals. A lot of people have been finding you through the podcast episodes you’ve done before. Graduate students and post-docs and early-career PhDs. So we’ll talk about a few of those sort of case studies in a little bit, but first I just wanted to get your general impressions about the book on house hacking. I know that you are not a house hacker, although you are a landlord, but yeah, just what did you think about this book and this idea generally?

31:16 Sam: Very motivational. Definitely on the aggressive side of house hacking, giving suggestions, like living in a trailer in your driveway. Not something I would do personally, but it’s a step in the right direction. I mean, people need to know that it’s okay to live in a house for just one year and then buy another property the following year. So I liked it a lot. There were some accuracy things that I would’ve changed just regarding loan approval, but the loan guidelines and laws we have to stay within, they change annually. So there are always little tweaks and adjustments, especially 2020 was a funky year. So they made some higher credit score requirements and things like that. Generally speaking.

Did it Make You Want to Try House Hacking?

32:01 Emily: I think that’s a really good way of approaching this book. I do see it more of like a motivational book and like an overview, but maybe not once you drill down into the specifics, like, yeah, it might not be accurate year to year because things do change. The book was published in 2019, but as you said, 2020 kind of upended, a lot of things we’re recording this interview in January, 2021. So yeah, I totally agree about the book. And did it make you want to try house hacking?

32:27 Sam: It did. And then they also made me reflect on what I had when I was still living in a one-bedroom, one bathroom, how I actually rented out the common area to a buddy who needed a place to live.

32:39 Emily: Oh yeah, because you were house hacking for a little while. I forgot about that. Because your place was only a one-bedroom, but you did have a tenant.

32:46 Sam: Yeah, he was just switching jobs. He’s also in finance. And yeah, he ended up just bunking with me. And I think it was only like $4,000 for the year, but Hey, I mean that’s $4,000 I didn’t have to start out with.

Real Example of Potential for House Hacking

33:03 Emily: Yeah, definitely. And before this point in the interview, I’ll have told the listeners a lot of the principles from the book. So we don’t have to go through all of those in detail, but I wanted to really get from your unique perspective, some ideas about how a graduate student or how someone on a lower income can actually make this house hacking strategy work. Of course it will not work in every housing market. We know that. The incomes for graduate students and postdocs are too low to make it work in high cost-of-living areas. But there is a chance of it working in lower cost-of-living areas even on one income. But especially if you did have two incomes or if maybe instead of a graduate student or a post-doc, you know, there are some different situations where this does work out. So I wanted to get from you, you know, from all the clients that you’ve worked with a few examples of people who either were planning on house hacking, and you knew that at the time you were making the loan or who bought a large enough place that they could house hack if they wanted to. So can you talk us through a couple of those examples?

34:03 Sam: Yeah. So I mean the best example which has happened, I would say many times over, is in North Carolina. One student purchasing that, you know, the regular stipend amount of around $32,000 a year. I actually just looked up the property it had appreciated. He bought it at 200,000, put 10,000 down, was still within his debt-income ratio. He closed in April last year, and when he started off the process, he did say he was going to house hack. When I followed up with him a few months after closing, he didn’t end up renting out any rooms. He enjoyed having those extra spaces. So I’ll probably check up with him in the spring and see if he had changed his mind. But, I mean, it was a four-bedroom place, so he definitely had the ability to do it, but then just didn’t execute after closing because I guess he was comfortable with the payment enough.

35:02 Emily: I do want to emphasize that whenever you’re planning a house hack, it’s really vital to be confident that you could make the mortgage payment without any rent coming in. Maybe in the case like this person, you just decided not to rent out the rooms, ultimately your life circumstances change, or you want your privacy or whatever. Or it could be that, Hey, maybe you have a tenant, but that tenant is not paying you. And that’s happened a lot in 2020. It’s really a difficult situation to resolve for everyone. And so you need to be sure that, you know, if you scrimp and save and you reduce your other expenses, you would be able to make that mortgage payment still. So the example that you just spoke about and you said this has happened multiple times in North Carolina. I know that you’ve been working with a lot of graduate students in the Triangle, at UNC and at Duke, NC State, to make these loans happen in that area.

Loan Qualifications for a ~$32K/year Stipend

35:49 Emily: So let’s just take that market for example. So what size of a mortgage could a graduate student, let’s say, possibly take out? Like, I guess what I’m asking is, you know, they’re looking at their stipend, someone who isn’t ready to approach someone like you, a loan officer yet, but they’re looking at their stipend, they’re making 30 or $32,000. Like you said if everything were ideal in the rest of their finances, like let’s say they’re debt-free and they have a great credit score. How large of a loan could that person qualify for? Because that’s really kind of the question here is, are you going to be able to qualify for a large enough loan to make house hacking a possibility in your housing market?

36:27 Sam: So the highest I’ve been able to approve without a co-signer is 220,000. That was also in the Research Triangle.

36:37 Emily: So $220,000 on about a 30, $32,000 kind of stipend.

36:41 Sam: $32,000, this student did not have any student loans that were deferred. She was pretty much debt-free except for a few credit cards.

36:51 Emily: Okay. So pretty, really, really good solid portfolio otherwise. So just for the listeners, like house hacking could still be possible if you have those other kinds of debt, you’re just going to qualify for a little less. So it just has to work in your housing market.

37:04 Sam: Right. I mean, it’s important to understand that, like, even though you might have a similar situation to somebody else, it’s never exactly the same. So you want to have someone pull your credit, look at your entire financial picture in order to give you the results catered to your ability to purchase. You don’t want to just assume you’re going to fall into a bucket and everything will be okay. Because there are some very important details that go into this approval and those have to be evaluated by an expert. There’s just some things you can evaluate on your own, especially things like mortgage insurance, what will be allowable for your down payment, you know, in order to make your ratios work and make sure you’re within the guidelines.

37:49 Emily: So I think what I would encourage the listeners to do, if they are enthusiastic about this idea of house hacking but they’re not sure if they’re going to make it work is look really high level at what is your income and then what are houses, at least probably a two-bedroom home of some kind, selling for in your area. And if you’re within like striking distance of like, maybe I could get a loan, possibly, I’m not sure, for enough to make this work. That’s the time to approach someone like you that is to say, to approach you because you’re the expert in this subject and ask, well, how much can I be approved for? And then figure out whether or not there are houses in your area that would help you make this strategy work.

Different Types of Loans Available in the Marketplace

38:27 Emily: So let’s talk about the down payment for a moment because you just brought that up and we’d actually, didn’t talk about this much in our last episode. And it’s an important factor to consider. I would the two big hurdles for especially graduate students to buy homes are: one, qualifying for a big enough mortgage on their low income, and two, having enough of a down payment. So would you just really quickly run through the different types of loans that there are available in the marketplace and how much of a down payment is required for each of them?

Sam (38:55): Yeah. So some of your most popular loans, FHA loans and conventional loans. FHA a classic first-time home buyer basically program. It’s insured by the Federal Housing Administration, and the down-payment is three and a half percent. So they make it very achievable. There’s some employment and income that’s not accepted for FHA. So you want to check with your lender. And then when we get over to the good stuff, the conventional loans, taken out, allow you to go as little as 3% down and that can come from a gift from a family member or a friend. It doesn’t have to be your own verified funds. More commonly, Epic FHA loans are not a good fit for fellowship income, but if you have regular W2 income or some other employment, maybe a second job you’ve had for a year or two, this is also a good option.

39:45 Sam: Now if you have excellent credit, you’re going to want to get into the conventional loan bucket because it’s going to have lower mortgage insurance. It allows as little as 3% down. When we’re thinking about stipend income at $32,000 a year, you going to want to lean towards 5%–or 10%–down to make your ratios work. This is all going to depend on working with, you know, someone you trust so they can evaluate your personal qualifications. Okay. But outside of those two popular loan products, we have VA loans. So if you’re a veteran and you’re back in school, VA loans are a piece of cake. They require no down payment. There’s no mortgage insurance. There are a lot of good other good benefits. Like the VA loan can be assumed by another person and take over that low rate that you’ve already established.

40:39 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for explaining that. So we’re talking about 3% down, as little as 3% down for conventional, although you’re recommending five or 10% as maybe a better fit, depending on the person. FHA loans, three and a half percent down. VA loans, 0% down. So the kind of range of downpayment costs that we’re talking about are, it sounds like, okay, let’s say on a $150,000 property, that would be like four and a half thousand dollars at 3%, up to $15,000, if you were putting down 10%. So kind of somewhere in that range is what we’re talking about as a minimum down payment. I don’t know, in one sense, it’s a lot of money for a graduate student to come up with that. That’s a pretty, you know, it’s a good chunk of a year’s salary. However, if the outcome is getting you into a house that cashflows you every month, or at least reduces your housing expense every month, in the long-term, it’s a small amount of money. It can be a larger amount of money to come up with in the moment. And you just mentioned for conventional loans, it is acceptable for someone like a parent, perhaps, to gift you the down payment.

41:44 Sam: This is very common.

41:48 Emily: And I was of course, very impressed by, you know, the case studies that were in the house hacking strategy of people making back their entire initial investment and more, you know, within the first year of owning their house hack, that is the down payment money. Plus maybe they put in some renovation funds. It was some really, really inspiring case studies. And of course you have to take everything with a grain of salt because the author is going to be picking the absolute best to include in the book, run the numbers in your own situation. But I mean, as you just said, compared to renting, which is a pure drain on your net worth, you have a really good chance of, you know, actually coming out ahead with house hacking–with buying, but like house hacking makes it even more sure. You know, that you’re going to come out ahead when you have that rental income coming in.

42:33 Sam: Yeah. And I do want to say the examples he gives in this book, they are very good examples. I also feel like he’s kind of, double-dipping on some of the numbers sometimes because I mean, you’re not paying $8,000 down on your loan amount in your first year of ownership. You’re paying mostly interest. So I just felt like he was kind of double-dipping with, Oh, if I have this extra rental income and I have that, plus I’m using that to pay down my loan, you know, and then he’s making it motivational, I’ll say. But is that realistic at all markets? Definitely not.

Examples Outside of the Research Triangle

43:13 Emily: I wanted to get an idea of you of a few other housing markets that you’ve worked with grad students in. Maybe not specifically for house hacking, but just grad students who have been able to buy homes around other universities. Can you give us a few examples outside of the Research Triangle?

43:28 Sam: Yeah. I mean, I’ve had success in outside of Boston, Massachusetts, where you think it’s a high-cost area and then someone on a fellowship wouldn’t afford it. That has been successful. Outside of Denver, Colorado. We’ve also had some purchases there with a post-doc. Gosh, Miami, Florida, we even had someone purchase who was going to University of Miami. Atlanta, Georgia is popular. Emory University has a good funding letter, which I’ve helped a few students out down there. It’s really all over. I mean, we have from Texas to Rhode Island to Tennessee and Ohio.

44:11 Emily: Yeah. That gives us a good idea. Thank you. So I was actually surprised to hear some really big markets in that list where you’ve made this work. So yeah, I would say for a grad student or postdoc, whoever who’s listening who is wondering about this strategy, just run some really high level numbers in your area. According to like what’s in the market right now and what your stipend is, and then yeah, if you think you’re within striking distance, like reach out to Sam, reach out to a few lenders and see if they can make the numbers work for you.

44:38 Sam: Yeah. I just want to put the emphasis on like, if you feel like you’re well-qualified, like you know you don’t have $200,000 in student loans. You know income’s going to continue for years plus, just reach out to myself or someone on my team because there’s very often a personal touch that we have for this community. I work with some students that have been denied by two other lenders. But they’re already in contract and you know, I’m two weeks late on working with them. So just in respect to your own time and maybe these other lenders that aren’t familiar, you know, we work a lot with the PhD community. I mean, we’re doing at least five plus deals a month right now, all over the country.

Correcting the Record: Credit Scores

45:27 Emily: Was there anything else about the book that you wanted to kind of correct the record on?

45:33 Sam: Yeah. I mean, there are a few things regarding credit score that changed in 2020, after this book was written. So last spring, when everything with COVID-19 was restricting some lenders, they upped credit score requirements. So a lot of FHA loans, you can’t really apply for them unless you’re over 640. And for conventional loans, no lenders typically go down to 620. There’s a breaking point. It’s at 660. So if your FICO score, if your middle FICO score is above 660, it’s going to be cheaper for you to go conventional monthly. The mortgage insurance is lower. Now, if your middle FICO score is below 660, it’s going to be cheaper for you to go FHA. That’s just a rule of thumb that all lenders use. When we price out everything and when we compare monthly payments, that’s the breaking point.

46:27 Sam: So if you’re at 661, I’m going to put you in a conventional loan. You’re at 660 or 659, FHA is for you. It does mention in the book, how, if you’re in an FHA loan, you will have to refinance into a conventional loan. This is a very common thing. Everybody does it. It reduces your mortgage insurance and also allows your mortgage insurance to drop off at 78% of equity. Okay. But everything else was looking really good. He had some very clear things to say for these first-time home buyers or house hackers. I would just suggest everyone to get better results. You should work with a loan officer, either myself or someone who’s also a senior loan officer who has a few years experience, so they can make something cater to your needs. But generally speaking, it was a great read. Very aggressive when he starts talking about, you know, living in a tent in the backyard and renting out every room in your three bedroom.

47:29 Emily: That strategy also was a little too much for me. And I think, you know, when I’m presenting this to my audience, it’s more about what can you make work over the course of five years? Not necessarily over the course of like one year. The book is very focused on one year and you know, there’s reasons for that from a real estate investing strategy, why that’s the case. But I think for the people who are listening to me, they’re more likely to want to stay in a place for a few years and have their own bedroom during that time.

47:58 Sam: Exactly, exactly.

Would You Please Give Your Contact Info Again?

47:58 Emily: Okay. Sam, thank you so much for this interview. Great information. I really hope we’ve gotten some people excited about house hacking, about buying homes, making it seem like a possibility earlier, even during graduate school. I know that I wish that I had seriously considered this or known about this concept when I was in graduate school. So as we close out, will you please give your contact information again?

48:19 Sam: Yeah. Thank you for having me again. The best way to reach me is by phone. It’s (540) 478-5803. My best e-mail is my work e-mail. It’s [email protected].

48:34 Emily: Wonderful. Sam, thank you so much for joining me.

48:37 Sam: Of course. Thank you for having me.

Concluding Thoughts About House Hacking

48:39 Emily: I’m back with a few concluding thoughts. I fervently wish I had learned about the power of house hacking earlier in my life. I did my PhD at Duke between 2008 and 2014. I knew several fellow grad students who were house hacking, though I didn’t know the term at the time. So it was possible to make the numbers work. My husband and I together definitely could have purchased a home in 2010, the year we got married, based on our two stipends and our existing savings. However, I was still psychologically scarred from watching the housing market crash and there was a lot of talk about rigorous lending standards. We thought that we would leave Durham in 2013 perhaps, so following the five-year rule we did not pursue homeownership. We didn’t end up moving away from Durham until 2015. So in retrospect, house hacking was possible and almost certainly highly profitable, and we lived there long enough that either selling or keeping the home as a rental would have been viable options.

49:38 Emily: All that is water under the bridge for me, of course. What I can do now that I have learned about this strategy is two things: 1) I can consider how I can house hack in my present life. My husband and I are planning to buy our first home in the near future. We do want a detached single-family home but could consider adding an accessory dwelling unit. If that turns out to be impractical, perhaps we could house hack during a sabbatical year in another area of the country or once our kids are grown. 2) I can share this strategy as widely as possible, as I’m doing in this episode, and support anyone in my audience who wants to investigate or pursue house hacking. A perfect place to talk over these ideas as you pursue them is inside the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. In fact, we have one member already who is planning a house hack in the next few months! The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop is our monthly Book Club selection for March 2021. So jump into the Community at PFforPhDs.community and we will discuss house hacking!

50:39 Emily: I want to continue this conversation not just in the Community but also on this podcast. If you are a grad student or PhD who is currently house hacking or has done so in the past, please get in touch with me. I’d love to publish a compilation podcast episode with several real case studies. If you’d like to volunteer, even anonymously, you can reach me at [email protected].

Listener Q&A: Do I Report My Stimulus Checks?

51:07 Emily: Now, on to the other one of our two new segments, the listener question and answer. Today’s question comes from a grad student in my annual tax return workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return and Understand It Too. Here’s the question: Do I report my stimulus checks as part of my gross income? This question has a really short answer, which is no. Your stimulus checks, or your economic impact payments as the IRS calls them, do not have any effect on your tax return unless you did not receive one when you were supposed to. I’m going to read from an IRS newsroom release from last spring titled, What People Really Want to Know About Economic Impact Payments. And I’ll link to this page from the show notes. Quote, “Is this payment considered taxable income? No, the payment is not income and taxpayers will not owe tax on it. The payment will not reduce a taxpayer’s refund or increase the amount they owe when they file their 2020 tax return next year. A payment will also not affect income for purposes of determining eligibility for federal government assistance or benefit programs.” End quote. So there you have it. Super straightforward.

53:18 Emily: The stimulus checks, the economic impact payments, are not taxable. Really the only catch, like I just mentioned, is if you were in fact eligible for these payments in 2020, but the IRS didn’t know that you were eligible and you didn’t receive the payments, then you will claim what’s called a recovery rebate credit on your tax return. So on form 1040 in line 30, you’re going to have a number in that line. It’s going to be an additional credit to you, which means you’ll get more of a refund than you were expecting essentially. Now, if you’re not sure if you’re eligible for the recovery rebate credit, there is a worksheet in the instructions for form 1040 called the recovery rebate credit worksheet. And you can fill out that worksheet and it’ll tell you exactly, you know, whether or not you were eligible and whether or not you can claim the recovery rebate credit. So thank you Aanonymous for that question.

53:18 Emily: By the way, if you’re interested in learning more about my tax workshop, How to Complete Your Grad Student Tax Return and Understand It Too, and potentially join it like this questioner did, you can go to PFforPhDs.com/taxworkshop to find more information. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to PFforPhDs.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

53:48 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q and A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media with an email listserv or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

What Happens When Personal Finance Education Becomes Your Hobby

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In this episode, Emily interviews Laura Frater, a first-year PhD student at the University of California at Davis. Laura grew up in a low-income family in Scotland and first came to the US a few years ago for a master’s degree. She went from having “zero financial literacy” at that time to being highly engaged with her finances now, and even considers personal finance education to be her hobby! Laura details the top seven tips for financial success that she has implemented over the last few years, including one just for international students. She continues to discover new strategies and experiment with her finances.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

financial education hobby

Teaser

00:00 Laura: You don’t have to sort of wait to be an adult to do those things. Like you are an adult already in grad school, and you can do other things that adults do with their money for sure.

Introduction

00:14 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode two, and my guest today is Laura Frater, a first-year PhD student at the University of California at Davis. Laura grew up in a low-income family in Scotland and first came to the U.S. a few years ago for a master’s degree. She went from having zero financial literacy at that time to being highly engaged with her finances now and even considers personal finance education to be her hobby. Laura details the top seven tips for financial success that she has implemented over the last few years, including one just for international students. She continues to discover new strategies and experiment with her finances. For season eight of the podcast, I’ve shifted up the format. There are two new short segments, one before, and one after the interview. I hope this new format will encourage more interactions between me and you, the listener.

01:17 Emily: January is always an exciting month for Personal Finance for PhDs. First, it’s a brand new year, so a lot of people have a heightened interest in personal finance at this time. They want to start budgeting, increase their savings, open IRAs, et cetera, and I love that energy. Second, tax season has started. I rarely file my own tax return before April 15th, but I’ve learned that a lot of people file in January to get their tax refunds ASAP. Therefore, I’ve already kicked off my tax support for your 2020 return, which you heard about in last week’s episode. Third, I view January as the start of admissions season for PhD programs. Although, I know some people receive acceptances even earlier. So, it’s a thrilling and hopeful time of year for prospective graduate students, and a perfect time of year for them to connect with my material.

02:10 Emily: If you would like to learn more about personal finance and want a friendly environment in which to ask questions and discuss topics, including all of the ones I just mentioned, please consider joining the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.com/community. If you know that you want support in accomplishing a big financial goal this spring, I recommend my group coaching program, The Wealthy PhD. You and I will meet one-on-one to identify and plot a course toward a big financial goal. Past participants have opened IRAs, set up systems of targeted savings, started budgeting, and systematically implemented frugal tactics. Every week for eight weeks, you will participate in a small accountability group that I facilitate that will keep you on track to meet small weekly goals. The next round of The Wealthy PhD starts in mid-February, and enrollment is open now. Visit pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD to learn more.

Book Giveaway Contest

03:12 Emily: Now, onto one of the two new segments, the book giveaway contest. In January 2021, I’m giving away one copy of The House Hacking Strategy by Craig Curelop, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for March 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during January will have a chance to win a copy of this book. I’m super enthused for my audience to learn about house hacking, which is when you buy a home, live in it, and rent out part of it, thereby radically reducing or even eliminating your housing expense. In fact, I’m bringing back a special guest from the past to discuss the strategy with me in an episode that will be published at the end of January. We’re going to tell you how even a grad student in certain housing markets can apply the principles explained in this book. And certainly, it’s even more viable if you have post-PhD income. If you’d like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at [email protected]. I’ll choose a winner at the end of January, from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Laura Frater.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

04:29 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Laura Frater. She is a first-year PhD student at UC Davis, and she’s going to be kind of telling us the arc of her financial story, starting as international student, and now, you know, in her PhD. And she has a great story to tell. And she’s going to be specifically telling us a few different strategies that she’s used, seven different strategies she’s used, in the course of this time to kind of get her financial life in order and now going into a PhD program. So Laura, it’s really a pleasure to have you on thank you so much for volunteering. And would you please, you know, tell the audience a little bit more about yourself?

05:10 Laura: Yeah, sure. So, my name is Laura and I just turned 29. I am originally from Scotland. I was born and raised in Glasgow and I moved to the U.S. when I was 25. So, it’s been about four years. I originally came to do my Master’s in English in New York city. And after four years of being there for very long years, I moved to Oakland, California with my husband about three months ago. So yeah, I’m still settling in and learning how to finally manage my money properly with my brand new graduate stipend, which is exciting.

Funding Journey Over the Past Four Years

05:43 Emily: Great. And so just to get a little bit more detail there, was your master’s funded? Were you paying for yourself? What were the financials during that period?

05:51 Laura: Yeah. Good question. So, I was there as an international student but it was a private school, so I had a full scholarship. I had all my tuition paid for, and then I had a fairly modest bi-weekly stipend over the course of two years. So, obviously it wasn’t a lot of money, but it kind of paid for things like travel. And my now-husband was a rock star and he took care of things like rent. So, I was definitely in a very fortunate situation overall.

06:21 Emily: And did you finish your master’s within those two funded years? And what did you do for the next two years? We’re talking about a four-year period, right?

06:28 Laura: Yeah. Four years. So the first two years, yeah, I started 2016, finished 2018. And then I went onto what’s called the OPT visa, which is like a temporary work visa for international students. So I spent about a year working on that visa, and long story cut short, I got married and applied for my green card and became a permanent resident last year.

06:53 Emily: Okay, gotcha. So, I wanted to give the listeners as well, a flavor of like your current financials. So, you came to the U.S. What was your financial life at that time, and what are you doing now? Like sort of where are you now? And then we’ll talk about, you know, how did you get from point A to point B? So, you know, what was point A, what’s point B like?

07:11 Laura: Yeah, well, point A was just a total lack of awareness with money. So, I really, I didn’t really grow up with any financial literacy, and I grew up in a very, just like a low-income household, basically. So, money was just always associated with stress and limitations. So, I didn’t have any knowledge about managing it effectively. So I would, I tended to, you know, pay for everything I needed to pay for. And then I would try and like hoard all my money and save everything, but that’s just not realistic. So, it was kind of a mess. And when I was not able to work last year waiting for my green card, I just made a huge point to learn about finances and become as aware as possible about every dollar and where it was going. So, today it’s just much more about engagement and seeing it as a way to feel more free, basically. As free as you can be in graduate school.

Financial Strategy #1: 50-30-20 Rule

08:08 Emily: Okay. So, it’s really been a lot of like sort of mindset evolution then during that period of time. And it sounds like you went about it also very intentionally, at least for a period last year. So, let’s dive into the strategies then. You have six strategies that will be sort of applicable to hopefully anybody and then one that’s particular for international students. So, we’ll talk through each one of these. So, first strategy, what is it?

08:31 Laura: Okay, so this is something I definitely picked up listening to your podcast. So, knowing exactly where your money’s going and what the goal of those segments of money actually is. Again, this is something I learned from you was just the 50, 30, 20 rule. So, 50% goes towards everything you need to pay every month, like rent and utilities, and then 30% is for your wants–things that you want to spend money on–and then 20% towards your savings goals. So, just having those goals clearly outlined has been the biggest thing.

09:04 Emily: Yeah. I definitely like that touch point, which is why you’ve heard it from me before, but I’m curious how it struck you living in New York and now living in California. Because sometimes it’s really hard to hear that living in a high cost-of-living area.

09:17 Laura: Yeah, it’s definitely challenging. And I should definitely preface this by saying that, you know, being married, I share my expenses with somebody, so I have a benefit in that sense, for sure. We talk about our money really openly and we both stay within that 50, 30, 20 limit. So, we really talked about the kind of lifestyle that we could number one afford, and then, okay. So, were we willing to make certain sacrifices to live where we ideally wanted to live? So yeah, we probably spent about a month deciding on, you know, where we wanted to live, the cost of the apartment, did we want a car. All those kinds of things. And yeah, we definitely live, we live in Oakland, so it’s very expensive, but it’s a trade-off. We’ve had to be at peace with that choice.

Impact of Location and Commute

10:05 Emily: And let me, I’ll just ask also, so you’re living in Oakland, but you’re going to UC Davis, and those are not the same city. So, is there like, are you commuting or is it different now because maybe you’re remote or what’s going on with like your choice of location?

10:19 Laura: Yeah. So everything is online at Davis until next year. So, our lease in Oakland ends October, 2021. So, we definitely have the option to go closer to Davis if we want. But honestly, my schedule is very flexible and I only have to be up there twice a week, on average, if I was going up there. So, I don’t anticipate us moving somewhere cheaper so that I can be closer to Davis. My husband works in tech, so he has to be in San Francisco. So it’s really, we have to prioritize how much he has to commute, because that would be like an everyday occurrence almost for him.

10:56 Emily: Gotcha. Well, we’ll see how all of this evolves. You know, we’re recording this interview in November, 2020, and the future is very uncertain. I guess you at least know when your remote period will definitely go until, if not maybe further. Yeah. So, we’ll see how that goes. Anything else you want to say about that? The strategy of like, of budgeting and balancing?

11:17 Laura: I mean, I think you just have to like, not be afraid of the numbers and, you know, we really sat down, especially with the rent. Coming from Manhattan, we thought there’s no way it can be more expensive than Manhattan. And it was. So, you know, this is down to my husband’s great sales skills. He really haggled with the building and got us a really good deal. I wish I could give advice on how to do that, but I don’t. You might be better to interview him for that. So, we got about 12 weeks off of our rent. So, three months of this year we don’t pay for, and we managed to get free parking in our building as well for a little bit. So, negotiation skills is probably my next financial education to-do list point.

Financial Strategy #2: Side Hustles

12:01 Emily: Yeah, that’s incredible. And I think that’s both, it’s just good to know that it’s possible and some people are successful with it. Even if you don’t know, like particularly the script that he used or whatever, you can look up those kinds of things. But I am thinking that, you know, being in San Francisco adjacent kind of area, and also during COVID times, you know, the willingness to negotiate on behalf of the company that’s running the building or whatever is probably increased. So, it’s worth trying whenever, but I suspect your success rates are going to be higher now than they will be a year or two from now or whatever. Okay. So, what is strategy number two?

12:38 Laura: So, number two is something, again, that you’ve talked about a lot is side hustles. So, I’d always aimed to find a side hustle during grad school. You kind of have to. But, I ideally wanted something that was remote during this weird time. So, I was lucky to get, it’s a grading job with UT Austin. So, you’re basically grading papers for this program that they do for high school students who are taking college-level composition classes. And I’m not totally sure how I feel about it yet. It’s definitely a lot of work for the money that you make. So, that’s something to probably think about. You know, maybe have a goal in mind in terms of how much money you want to make off of your side hustle, how much you need to make, and then decide whether that side hustle is the best fit for you. So, I’m going to do it for a few more months and see what else is out there. But I would never say no to even like a little bit extra money in the week on those stipends. So yeah, definitely go for a side hustle if you can.

13:37 Emily: Yeah. So, I do want to note that you’re saying that you did the side hustle post-getting your green card, because you’re not allowed to have an income that you are working for as an international student. So this is only for, you know, people who are citizens or residents and also even a subgroup within that of people who are not going to be risking their funding by pursuing a side hustle or, you know, their relationship with their advisor or whatever. So, it sounds like the kind of the one that you chose is probably quite flexible. Maybe the pay is not great for the hours, but you can fit it in around the other things that you’re doing.

Flexibility and Fellowships

14:09 Laura: Yeah, totally. It’s definitely very flexible and yeah, that’s a good point. I’m on a fellowship. So, I cannot work at UC Davis or any of the UC campuses, but I’m allowed to work anywhere else off those campuses. So, this was actually recommended to me by UC Davis and I felt pretty confident going into it that it was, you know, a good space in which to work. So, yeah, I think keeping an eye on how much I’m probably making per hour, given how much work I’m doing for them. And I love the job itself. I just want to be careful that I’m not giving too much of my time for, you know, a really low rate of money. So, that’s something to definitely be aware of.

14:48 Emily: Yeah. I’m really glad that UC Davis actually gave you that clarity around what the policy was, because I don’t know that that’s actually that common. So like, here’s what’s not allowed, here’s what it is allowed. Oh, recommendations for what, you know, what work you might do. I know I had a side hustle that was doing editing for journal articles for a while after I finished my PhD. And I similarly had to be really conscious and sort of suppress my like perfectionist tendencies, because I was just like, for the rate that I’m being paid, I need to be very careful how much time I spend per paper. And like, yeah, maybe I’m just going to get it 90% of the way there. That’s okay. That’s good enough. And not, you know, toil over every like last detail. So, yeah. Great tip to be conscious about that. Anything else you wanted to add about side hustling?

15:32 Laura: So, one thing I am doing right now is I’m almost a qualified yoga teacher. So, that is something I really want to pursue. And I don’t know enough about setting up my own business yet and things like that. You obviously want to make sure that you’re not, you know, you want to be paying taxes and things like that. That’s really important. But the yoga stuff is just something I love to do. And I started becoming a teacher actually during COVID. Like right at the beginning, there was a really great online course. So things like that, you know, try and make those side hustles fit in with your schedule. Don’t be like missing time on studying just to make money if you can avoid it. So yeah, just looking for flexibility and not being exploited is the most important thing, I think.

16:15 Emily: Totally agree with both of those. And I’ll also add, I really like that you are just experimenting with things. You know, like you aren’t holding onto like, what’s exactly the most perfect thing, and that’s the only thing that’s going to be acceptable. Or you don’t have these limiting beliefs around, I’m not allowed to do anything. I can’t do anything. I can’t fit it in, I don’t have time, I’m not allowed. Yeah, you’re just trying things out and I think that’s a great approach.

16:36 Laura: Yeah. It’s definitely fun. And you know, again, podcasts like yours, you know, finding out from other people what they’re doing. It doesn’t have to be a conventional, probably pretty dull side hustle. Like, you know, try and enjoy your life as much as possible because I think these years only get more intense as you keep going with the PhD. So, try and do something that is good for your soul as well as your bank account.

Financial Strategy #3: Check Your Bank Account Regularly

16:58 Emily: Yeah, that sounds good. Okay. Let’s talk about your third strategy.

17:03 Laura: Yes. So, I think just checking your bank account every single day is, it seems like the most simple advice, but something that I never used to do. I would just, you know, live in denial and not check it for days at a time. So, like take advantage of the apps from your bank. Like they need to be good for something. So, have it on your phone, check it every day. And I also try and look at the last five to six transactions. And I try and work out, are there any patterns in my spending? Are there things that I’m wasting money on? But that also helps you figure out what you actually enjoy spending your money on in the first place, so you can be prepared for it. And it also will just show up any kind of like random transactions that were maybe incorrect, which actually do happen. Like you think that they won’t, but they definitely do.

17:51 Emily: I have an example of that actually, that I was looking at our, my husband, I share a Mint account. I was looking at it the other day, and I saw a charge from Amazon Music for like $15. And I was like, Hmm, husband, did you subscribe to Amazon music without discussing that with me? And he goes, Oh, no, like weirdly my phone was like freezing up and I thought I tapped something and then I wasn’t sure. And so anyway, it was a total mistake that he, you know, accidentally subscribed and, and he, you know, he talked with them and he got it reversed and it was totally fine. But if we had gone a month or two without like catching that, or if it had just gone into the, you know, swept away with all the other transactions, then, Hey, you’re out $15 every single month. Not just one time.

18:32 Laura: Yeah. It’s a lot of money. I mean, also like looking for those free trials that you forget to cancel. Happened to me twice this month. I was so embarrassed because I pride myself on not letting that happen, but Microsoft charged me 75 bucks, which, you know, I would have gotten that free through Davis and I forgot that I paid for last year, and Hulu as well. So yeah, we still have it for one more month, but not worth it at all.

Monitoring Short-Term Savings Goals

18:56 Emily: So, what else do you get out of the particular strategy of checking every single day? Like, are you, I mean, you mentioned finding patterns in your spending, which I think is super valuable. What else are you getting out of that practice?

19:09 Laura: I think the other thing right now that I’m getting out of it is checking on my short-term savings goals, which I’ve actually established, which is really great and has lowered my anxiety. Also like looking for avoiding any bank fees, which are really, really tricky, especially with someone like Wells Fargo, who we can talk about that later, maybe, but like that bank is terrible about those fees. Checking for example, how many times I’ve used my debit card to make sure that I avoid the monthly fee. Things like that, that I never really did before. It’s just another way to be as fully engaged as possible with my spending.

Financial Strategy #4: Make Financial Education a Hobby

19:47 Emily: Alright. So, what’s your fourth strategy?

19:49 Laura: Fourth is just making your financial education a hobby. I guess that’s the best word to describe it. I used to view finances and the education around it with a lot of fear and anxiety, but finding fun ways to learn about it has really changed my life in so many ways. For example, your podcast. I’ll go for a walk by my apartment. I’ll go running, I’ll go to the gym. And I just pick an episode and then I, you know, listen to it and I make notes on it afterwards, normally. Getting an audio book is a really good idea as well. Going on YouTube and just sifting through different people’s videos. There’s definitely some weird people out there for sure. So you can, you can judge that as you, as you figure your way through it. But just making your education a part of your lifestyle, I think is really important.

20:37 Emily: Yeah. I definitely also went down this road with when I was sort of getting, I had been learning about personal finance through reading some books and stuff, but then when I got a little bit interested and more engaged, I was reading about a lot online and like starting to connect with bloggers and then I started blogging myself. So, there was like a community, you know, developing online around it. And I definitely would call that my hobby at that time, which of course has since become my business. But at the time it was just a fun thing I was doing like, you know, wake up, like check my email and like check my like feed for, you know, what the new blog posts are. And I really liked having that perspective from other people. I think those communities have moved more towards like Reddit and YouTube now.

21:17 Emily: It’s not so much like blogging. I mean, people still do that, but it’s not quite as huge as it was at that time. But just finding like a way that you like to consume information, like you were just saying, like audio works really well for you. Obviously, I love podcasts. So, audio works for me too. Finding a way you’d like to consume information and then a few people maybe like on whatever medium that is that you like to follow. There’s a big personal finance community on YouTube now, I know. So, if that’s your thing, like you could definitely find, you know, great influences there. And yeah, I think books still have their place for sure. And if audio books can do well, or if you have the time and capacity to read, then that’s perfect too.

Commercial

21:54 Emily: Emily here for brief interlude. Taxes are weirdly unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold your income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2020 tax return, which are available at pfforphds.com/tax. I hope you’ll check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which you can find links to from PF F O R P H D S.com/T A X. The first live Q&A call for my workshop on preparing your 2020 PhD tax return is this Sunday, January 17th. Also, for those of you who are paid by fellowship or training grant, the deadline to make your quarter four estimated tax payment is January 15th. If you’re not going to file your tax return by the end of January. It would be my pleasure to help you save time and potentially money this tax season. So, don’t hesitate to reach out. Now, back to our interview.

Financial Strategy #5: Decide What Makes Your Life Rich

23:21 Emily: So, what is the fifth strategy on your list?

23:24 Laura: The fifth one is actually from a really good book called I Will Teach You To Be Rich, which was actually the audio book that I just downloaded. And one of the questions, gosh, the author’s name I’ve totally blanked on.

23:36 Emily: It’s Ramit Sethi.

23:38 Laura: So, yes. He’s really great. And I wasn’t super sure about the title at first. I thought it was maybe like a little bit crass, but he has some really good advice including sit down and decide what makes your life rich. And that doesn’t mean in terms of how much money you have for retirement or how much money you have on the day-to-day, but what do you really value and what do you enjoy spending your money on? So, that was something that I kind of made my husband and I sit down and talk about. You know, like what are our individual, you know, finance goals and our joint ones as a couple in the next five, 10 years. Like where do we want to live? Like what kind of life do we want to have for ourselves? And it’s not just helped us plan our savings more appropriately, but it’s also alleviated my personal guilt when I see like what I’m spending money on. For example, I love eating out. Like I never did it growing up and I love doing it now. And that’s part of what makes my life personally rich. So, it just helps you, I think, feel less shame if you’re spending things and you’re initially worried that it’s not appropriate. But if that’s what you value, then you should enjoy it if you can afford it.

24:46 Emily: Yeah. I think Ramit’s voice is a very unique one in the personal finance space, because he does have this emphasis on, you know, spend extravagantly on the things that are really important to you and increase your income so that you can support that. And do not worry about like, cut spending in the areas that are not important to you. I was just actually listening to him as a guest on another podcast a couple of days ago. And I think he said something like, you know, he drives a super old car still and he like, there are some areas of his life that he really does not spend on, but there are a few that he’s identified they’re really important where he spends lavishly. And so that’s, I think it is a really good perspective for someone who is like you were talking about earlier, like sort of afraid to spend money or like hoarding money that like, I can definitely see how that message could help you with your own money mindset.

25:38 Emily: I Will Teach You To Be Rich actually came up earlier on the podcast and we’ll link it from the show notes. We did an interview with Dr. Amanda and she talks about how that book in particular, when it was first published like 10 years ago or whatever totally turned her like money life around. That was like the sort of inception of her money, her financial journey. So, if you want to hear another perspective on, you know, how that book’s helped someone else, that’ll be linked from the show notes. Yes.

In Other Words: What Are Your Values?

26:05 Emily: So, another way of like saying this, like figure out what makes your life rich thing, which is a little bit more like classic financial planning, is what are your values? What is important to you? You also mentioned identifying goals. And I think it’s a wonderful process. Not, you know, not a lot of graduate students might get into this because they feel like they’re more on the survival level. But what I like about this exercise of figuring out what’s really important to you, what really makes you happy, what really makes you feel satisfied, is that there are sometimes ways that you can find a way to fulfill those values that don’t involve spending. And that’s okay. Like for instance, you know, you said earlier that you’ve been trained to become a yoga teacher. So, maybe, I’m guessing, physical health and mental health and balance and things like that are important to you. And it doesn’t take a lot of money to have a yoga practice, right? So, there are ways to find fulfillment, even if you aren’t able to spend right now. But then later, you know, when your income is higher, post-PhD, you can maybe think of ways that you could spend and even enhance that more later, but still find some ways to do it now and fit it into your life right now. Instead of just sort of saying to yourself, I can never do anything. I can never spend anything. I can never afford anything because of my stipend right now. And just sort of shutting all of that down.

27:19 Laura: Totally. Yeah. And I think that’s something as a cohort when you’re in your PhD program, like you should definitely talk about that with other people. Because the attitude, at least from what I witnessed, is like, everyone’s scared about their money. But you’re totally right. If you sit down and think about what brings a particular richness to your life. But when I did it, I realized, Oh, wow, I do yoga. I love hiking. I love going for walks. Like I’m such an old lady that way. So it’s like, I have all these things already there for free. And it just helps you feel, it gives you perspective on your money. It’s, you know, you don’t have a lot right now, but that’s okay because X, Y, and Z doesn’t cost me anything.

Financial Strategy #6: Talk to Your Partner About Money

27:55 Emily: Well, it’s a wonderful point. Thank you so much for expanding on that one. Sixth strategy. What’s that one?

28:02 Laura: So, the sixth is to anyone in a relationship. Talk to your partner about money. It’s not something you talk about the first couple of years, probably, when you’re on your first dates. But I mean, my husband and I have been together for almost nine years, married for just over a year. And you know, he’s so good with money and he has such a natural interest and I have such a fear of it normally that we’re kind of a perfect match that way. But the more we’ve talked about it, the more our relationship has improved, the better our goals are with our spending. There’s no awkwardness about things that we’re both buying. We do also keep, you know, separation there, which I think is healthy. I don’t know everything that he’s spending his money on, but we both know exactly how much the other person makes every month. We both know our bills when they’re due and if there’s any kind of more extravagant purchases that we’re both thinking of having as individuals, we do run them past the other, because it’s just a respectful little gesture. So, just making it a not scary thing. Just talk about it with your partner. The worst thing is to keep it a secret, for sure.

29:10 Emily: It sounds like you two have found like a balance. You have transparency but you also have a degree of autonomy. So, no secrets, anything that needs to be flagged as brought to the other person’s attention, but the decisions are still ultimately your own individually for certain aspects of your spending. And obviously certain aspects you have to come to an agreement. I did a pretty interesting podcast interview recently with Dr. Michelle Roley-Roberts where we talked about joint and separate finances.

29:40 Laura: Yes. I listened to that.

Financial Strategy #7: Learn About U.S. Credit Card Culture

29:42 Emily: Cool. Yeah. So, I’ll link that in the show notes, in case people want to follow up on like, okay, well, what is the money management system that might work well for me? And you can certainly hear, you know, Michelle and I discuss our respective systems, which are somewhat different and somewhat similar. I think that your last strategy is specific to international students. So, will you share that one please?

30:00 Laura: Yeah. So this one, I so wish I’d known before I moved here, but better late than never. Learn about credit card culture in the USA, because it’s not going away and you will be all the better for accepting it. And I know it’s not always possible on a student visa to get a proper credit card. That was the problem I ran into, but they will give you something like a credit card from certain banks, and it will be a way to transition into an adult credit card, so to speak. I just got my first credit card. I’m not ashamed to admit it. So if anyone else out there is thinking, Oh gosh, I don’t even have one yet. It’s okay. Like better to just go and do it. But I just had so many questions about them because growing up in Scotland, we were always told don’t get a credit card. It’s, you know, it’s because you’re a failure financially, if you need to get one. But here it’s a very valuable thing to have a good credit history. So, learn about it as soon as you can, and go to your bank and just ask a ton of questions. And do not leave until you know the answer to all of them. Because they’ll try and just brush you off most of the time.

31:08 Emily: So, the credit card culture that you were just mentioning. It’s so closely held for me. I was taking a second, like, what do you mean by this? What is this culture? So, what you’re saying is like the importance of credit, like your credit score, your having good credit reports and so forth is not just for when you want to get a mortgage or when you want to take out a car loan or whatever. It can be checked by landlords. It can even be checked by employers in some cases. And so it’s like, yeah, weirdly important to have a really good credit or, you know, a decent to good credit score. And it doesn’t mean, like you were just saying, that you’re necessarily in debt or, you know, taking out lots of debt, or that you’re in a need or anything like that.

31:50 Emily: But yeah, it is it’s pretty weird and it’s pretty insidious that other kinds of payments are not reported on your credit report. Like, Hey, I pay my rent every month. Shouldn’t that count for something? And it’s also weird that your income doesn’t factor into your credit score. So, it’s a very strange system. I agree. And so, okay. So, I understand. So you had to understand what was going on with the U.S. system and kind of accept that, yes, you did need to establish a credit score. These are the steps to do, you know, get a secured card, later on, get a regular credit card once you have a credit score, and then kind of work it up from there. Is that right?

32:26 Laura: Yeah, totally. And again, like I was in a very privileged position because my husband has a credit score. But again, I didn’t know that to get an apartment, for example, in New York, even with his credit score, which is really solid, it was still a challenge. Like you got to wait until it’s processed. There are a lot of questions afterwards as well. So, just establishing that, the sooner the better. It will lift your anxiety about it and it, unfortunately it just will give you more freedom down the line. So, I would start off really small. You know, I just got my credit card and I’m only allowing myself to use it for certain expenses in the month so I can practice using it appropriately. So, just figure out how to use it properly and stick to the rules. And I think you should be good to go.

Credit Cards Can Intimidate Anyone 

33:12 Emily: I’ll actually like add in, even for, you know, people have grown up in the U.S. or whatever. Like, I also was very afraid of getting my first credit card, which thankfully I don’t know how, because I was very ignorant at the time, but thankfully I did not sign up for any credit cards during my undergraduate degree. So, I got through all of that with only, you know, I had student loans and so I actually had a credit score, but I didn’t have any credit cards. Thankfully. And by the time, I don’t know, I had just been like warned so strenuously about the dangers of credit cards that I was very, very nervous to get one for the first time. But like you, I was reading about how important it is to build credit. And this is, you know, an easy way to do it without actually paying interest on anything, which is also nice.

33:52 Emily: So, I like very carefully picked out my first credit card, very reluctantly, like signed up for it, used it very infrequently. And, you know, have still maintained that account to this day because it’s my oldest account. So, it’s definitely not just international students who can be kind of like perplexed and nervous about this whole system. It’s a little bit easier, of course, if you did go to college in the U.S. and you did take off student loans because you will have a credit score, even if you have never made a payment on student loans or anything like that. It’ll actually probably be a decent, I don’t know. It’s so weird. It’s such a weird system.

34:26 Laura: It’s so weird. Yeah. I mean one last thing I would say is just when they give you those documents at the bank with all the terms and conditions. It’s very tempting to just put it in an envelope and not look at it again. I have a whole box, actually in my office right now, and I’ve gone through the whole thing with a highlighter. And I asked my husband the definitions for things. I search online. I called the bank twice more because I wanted to confirm something. Like, ignorance is just not bliss. You just, you need to know what exactly you signed up for to really feel confident about it.

Benefits of Reflecting on Your Money Mindset

34:55 Emily: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for adding that. I know that a lot of international students I think hear this advice of open up a secured credit card when you get to the U.S. But I think a lot of them will kind of find some kinship with you in your like trepidation about this. And what exactly is this about and what are the attitudes? So, yeah. Thank you so much for adding that. So, what are the benefits that you’ve experienced from going through this, you know, this process and reflecting on your money mindset that you grew up with and putting all these strategies in place. Obviously, I’m assuming your hard numbers of your financials are looking rosier than they would have if you hadn’t gone through this process. But is there anything else that you want to add about benefits aside from the, you know, the black and white?

35:38 Laura: Yeah. I think that the biggest benefit is just, you know, getting out of this mindset as a grad student that you can’t have any savings goals. That was the big misconception that I had. You know, once you learn, for example, what an emergency fund is, what a Roth IRA is, all these little things. You realize, Oh, wait, it is possible to save for the future. Yeah. It’s not going to be as much as someone working as a lawyer or whatever, but it’s going to add up over the five, six years that you are on this smaller stipend. So, you know, it gives you a lot of hope and I think the mental health during graduate school, that’s something you have to be aware of. And putting aside, you know, a couple of hundred dollars a month to your Roth IRA, for example, that’s a great feeling. And that’s, you know, one of my goals that I have by the spring. You don’t have to sort of wait to be an adult to do those things. Like you are an adult already in grad school, and you can, you can do other things that adults do with their money for sure.

36:35 Emily: Yeah. I also, very coincidentally, I gave an interview this morning for Roostervane, which is Dr. Chris Cornthwaite’s brand. And I was talking about this as well, the mindset of really that label of being a student. It makes sense in a context, but it can really trip you up and mess you up, like in your mindset, because I think, you know, at least in the U.S., you know, for traditional college students, we’ve kind of accepted that it’s an extended adolescence period of time until you graduate from college and it’s okay to be dependent on your parents. And, you know, you may be still not really working on your finances because, Hey, you’re probably taking out a bunch of debt. We’ve kind of accepted that. And then when that student label gets applied to funded PhD students, there’s really a disconnect. And it’s much healthier, as you were just saying, to not really make that student like the closest part of your identity, but recognize that you are an adult, you need to have a well-rounded life, you know, financially healthwise, in your relationships, all these other areas. It’s not really feasible for you to kind of suppress and ignore various different facets of your life for the length of a PhD, which is very long.

37:42 Laura: No. Yeah, I completely agree. And also, I do understand the anxiety of the student label, right? But at the same time, you do have to kind of wake up to the fact that people are actually offering you money from a lot of different resources. Like, especially at Davis, where they are excellent at emailing us with fellowships and funding, money here and there. You do have to be proactive about it. You know, it’s still very hard and it’s stressful, but for example, go through your emails every month. And if you’ve missed anything with free money, put it in a spreadsheet like I’ve been doing. It does add up after a while and you realize, Oh, wait, year two, I can apply for, you know, $2,000 here for this. It doesn’t have to be so limited for the entire time.

38:26 Emily: Yeah. It’s kind of funny because I think in some ways earning more money while you’re a graduate student is like frowned upon in certain corners of academia or even not allowed as we talked about earlier. But there are other ways where earning more money is like completely sanctioned and encouraged by everyone which is applying for fellowships and applying for grants and doing all these like academia-style, like raises and like, you know, the things that we would use different terms for it outside of academia, but inside it’s still allowed and still a good idea. And like you were saying, some programs are pretty good about, you know, showing those opportunities to you and presenting them in a way that’s easy for you to take advantage of. So yeah, that’s wonderful to hear.

Best Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

39:04 Emily: So, I’d like to conclude with your best advice for another early career PhD. I feel like we’ve already heard a ton of great advice throughout the whole interview, but if there’s anything you want to add to that in a different area or something you want to emphasize, make sure the listeners walk away with, you know, please let us know.

39:20 Laura: Yeah. I mean, just, I think two things. My main points of advice would be to just make your financial education, or whatever you want to call it, a hobby. The more you know, the less anxiety you’re going to feel. And don’t think that saving for things like retirement or long-term savings goals have to be put on pause. It’s better to have a little bit saved towards that kind of goal than to have nothing in five years. So, the longterm does not have to be on a permanent pause by any means.

39:48 Emily: Yeah. And even, as you know, from compound interest, any little tiny bit of investing or debt repayment that you can do right now makes a massive difference later on. So, you know, don’t feel bad if it’s like $10 a month, $50 per month. Anything on that scale is still going to really, really add up over time. Well, thank you so much for this wonderful interview, Laura. I really enjoyed getting to know you a little bit.

40:09 Laura: Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. This was really fun.

Listener Q&A: Savings

40:16 Emily: Now, on to the second of two new segments. The listener question and answer. Today’s question actually comes from a survey I sent out in advance of one of my university webinars this past fall. So, it is anonymous. Here is the question. How can I effectively build my savings back up while still feeling like I have room to go out to dinner or buy a book when I’d like to? I feel so guilty whenever I make unnecessary purchases. Thank you so much for that question, Anonymous. It sounds like your main financial goal right now is to build up savings. And you’re struggling to find a way to balance that with discretionary expenses. And you might hear this as a strange solution, but I think the answer is budgeting. Most people think of budgeting as a way to cut back on their expenses or reduce their expenses or beat themselves up when they go over the amount they were supposed to spend in one category or another.

41:17 Emily: But that’s actually not how I see budgeting. I see budgeting as a method of intentionally and thoughtfully creating balance among the different purposes that your money has. So, what I think you should do is write into your budget “unnecessary purchases,” like going out to dinner and buying a book. And in this sense, these are not categories that you should, you know, try to spend much, much less than the cap. Your goal is instead going to spend right at that level that you identified when you set up the budget. This means that you have to decide what is an adequate savings rate. There are not just two broad categories in your budget, that is paying for your necessary expenses and saving. There are three. Necessary expenses, discretionary expenses, and saving. I’ll point you to the balanced money formula, which I really like the idea behind, although I have to acknowledge that it does not work in every city in the U.S. on any grad student stipend. The balanced money formula is that you would devote no more than 50% of your after-tax income to necessary expenses, 30% to discretionary expenses and 20% to savings.

42:31 Emily: Now, for your budget, that savings rate might be a little bit too low, or it might be unattainable, depends on where you are right now. But the point is that discretionary expenses hold a place in a balanced budget. It is really psychologically difficult to go for months and years spending little to no money on discretionary purchases. If you accept what I’m saying, that you need to build discretionary expenses into your budget, but you’re still saying to yourself, I’m not saving as much as I would like to, instead of cutting back on those discretionary expenses, I want you to take a really hard look at your necessary expenses. Necessary expenses are almost like this misnomer because, yes, it is necessary to house yourself and feed yourself and clothe yourself. But often we’re spending more than we absolutely baseline need to, to accomplish those things. So, for pretty much every quote, unquote, necessary expense, there’s going to be an actual necessary portion, and a discretionary portion.

43:34 Emily: So, I would really encourage you to go through your necessary expenses with a fine-tooth comb, starting with your largest fixed expenses like housing, perhaps transportation, moving to other fixed expenses like utilities. Then moving into your large necessary expenses like groceries. Then moving into your smaller necessary expenses, like maybe gas for your car. Reevaluate every single one of those expenses in that order to try to find a way that you can reduce them. Now, that may not happen instantaneously, if you have to do something like move, obviously. But the point is that you don’t just have to focus on your discretionary expenses and your savings. You can also pay some attention to those necessary expenses. In my mind, it’s way more fun to save money and also to spend on discretionary expenses. Spending on necessary expenses doesn’t really light people up. So, it definitely makes sense to reevaluate them and see where you can cut back.

44:34 Emily: Now, if you’ve done all of that, you’ve built the discretionary expenses into your budget. You’ve really evaluated if you can reduce any of your necessary expenses, and your savings rate is still not as high as you want it to be, then you need to consider increasing your income. Maybe that is the right solution. Some grad students are able and allowed to side hustle. So, you can look into that, if that’s your case. Some grad students are not allowed to work outside their appointment as a graduate student. And so in those cases, you might have to look for side incomes that don’t require work to generate them. I’ve talked about this quite a bit on my site. You can search for a side income or side hustle to find more discussion about that. Okay, Anonymous. I hope this helped. It is legitimate to spend money on discretionary or quote unnecessary purchases.

45:22 Emily: Absolutely. It’s just a matter of finding the right balance between your savings, your discretionary expenses, and your necessary expenses. And oftentimes, the two culprits in those areas are your necessary expenses and your income being too low. I hope that helps. Thank you so much for submitting this question. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions. So, please submit yours.

Outtro

45:53 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly on social media with an email listserv or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in like investing debt, repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Set Yourself Up for a Successful Career and Financial Life Post-PhD

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jennifer Polk, a career coach specializing in PhDs whose brand is From PhD to Life. Emily and Jen explore the damage that graduate school and academia often does to PhDs’ financial lives, in terms of both dollars and money mindset. They answer the question, “What can a graduate student or PhD do to mitigate academia’s financial damage?” from both a financial and career perspective, starting in grad school and extending several years post-PhD. Jen concludes the interview with an incredible insight that can only be gained with years of distance from the PhD.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

post-PhD career and finances

Teaser

00:01 Jen: Woo boy, I think the two-word answer is compound interest. The more that you can put away, even very, very, very small amounts earlier on, make such a huge disproportionate difference over the long term.

Introduction

00:23 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 14, and today my guest is Dr. Jennifer Polk, a career coach specializing in PhDs, whose brand is From PhD to Life. Jen and I explore the damage that graduate school and academia often do to PhDs’ financial lives, in terms of both dollars and money mindset. We answer the question, “what can a graduate student or PhD do to mitigate academia’s financial damage?” from both a financial and career perspective, starting in graduate school and extending several years post-PhD. Jen concludes the interview with an incredible insight that can only be gained with years of distance from the PhD. If this episode, and that final insight in particular, get your wheels spinning about what you should be doing right now in your finances, there are several ways you can work with me in the upcoming months to level up your financial life.

01:29 Emily: The Personal Finance for PhDs Community is always open to new members. That’s where you can find my courses on financial goal setting, budgeting, investing, et cetera, plus monthly challenges to participate in a book club and lots of opportunities to ask me questions and engage in discussion with other like-minded graduate students and PhDs. You can find out more at pfforphds.community.

I’m facilitating my brand new half-day workshop, Chart Your Course to Financial Success, twice in the next couple of months. Spend four hours with me and a small group of peers, and you’ll come away with clarity on what your current financial goal should be and how to achieve it, plus super actionable ideas for increasing your income and decreasing your expenses. On December 12, 2020, I’m facilitating the workshop exclusively for funded graduate students. And on January 10th, 2021, it’s exclusively for PhDs. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/chart.

02:34 Emily: Finally, Mark your calendars for the next round of The Wealthy PhD. My two-month group-coaching program that provides guidance and, most importantly, accountability to help you achieve a significant financial goal and set you up for future financial success. Enrollment will open in early January, 2021. You can find out more at pfforphds.com/wealthyPhD.

I’m so pleased to be able to offer you all these different avenues of support going into the new year. I hope you will identify one that fits you the best and sign up.

If you’re not quite sure about diving into working with me, please join my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Every Friday, I’ll send you an email detailing, a personal finance concept, an actionable strategy, or an inspirational story. You will receive an incredible amount of value, absolutely for free, through the list.

Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jen Polk.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:28 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Jen Polk. You probably know her brand From PhD to Life. She is a career coach specializing in PhDs. So, she has a lot to say to us around this topic. And we’re actually going to be talking about money mindset today and specifically how it affects, you know, your finances, but also your career journey as you’re moving through and beyond the PhD. So, Jen, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast day. It’s wonderful to have you.

03:56 Jen: Yeah. Thank you, Emily. It’s my pleasure. I’m nervous. I’m excited.

04:01 Emily: It’ll be fun. So, please tell the audience just a little bit more about yourself.

04:05 Jen: Sure. So Jen, as Emily says, I work with PhDs figuring out what to do next in their careers and my business is From PhD to Life. That’s fromphdtolife.com. And I’m self-employed and I live in Toronto.

What Academic Culture Teaches Us About Money

04:22 Emily: What does academic culture–in your experience, and also what you’ve observed from your clients–what does academic culture teach us or tell us about money?

04:32 Jen: Yes. Yes. Big question. So, my own personal background is from the humanities, a history PhD. And I think that academia emphasizes, at least my corner of academia, to use that phrase, thinks of money as a bad thing, as kind of a necessary evil. And extremes to which we might take that view do exist out in the wild. There are people out there who will, they can’t possibly live this way every day of their lives, but they will literally say things to me that anybody who has more money is morally inferior or that it is unethical to have, you know, more money than one needs, et cetera. And I think that, yes, one can find that view in academia.

05:29 Emily: Is that defined as more money than they have? Is that the dividing line?

05:34 Jen: Probably, probably, probably. But yeah, I think that thinking about money, talking about money makes you somehow less of a scholar, less of an intellectual. Of course, as we know, the truth is that you can’t actually do scholarly work over the long-term if you are constantly worried about money. It’s difficult. But yeah, there’s definitely a sense that if you’re the person–and I think this is also tied in with aesthetics–if you show up in your humanities department wearing flashy suits and red lipstick and earrings you will be deemed less serious as a scholar, as an intellectual. I think that is related to money mindset as well. It’s really gross. It’s really gross. And yet, of course, you need money.

06:33 Emily: Yeah. I mean, you just said that, of course over the long term, you, you have to have money or else you’re going to have a constant, you know, really it’s a fog in your brain. When you’re constantly stressed about money, when you experience scarcity, and this has been studied, you know, through research, that you literally don’t cognitively function as well as you could, if you did not have that stress in your life. So it’s really actually perplexing to me that we do this. We–academia–does this to graduate students, especially, but also postdocs and also, you know, adjuncts and other faculty members to a degree. Why are we doing this to our youngest, most vulnerable developing scholars? I mean, I know you can’t answer that question, but it’s really perplexing to me that, you know, the system chooses to put this kind of stress on people, and then moralizes it, as you were just saying, says, “Oh, this has been official to you that you don’t have the distractions of money and flashiness and opulence and so forth in your life.” When really what it is is, “No you’re stressing us out, so we can’t even think properly.” And that’s, it’s horrifying, really.

07:37 Jen: Academia is perplexing. I think that’s a good short way of putting it. There’s a lot of work to be done to kind of recognize the truth of one’s situation and think about what you actually do value that is different from what academia implies that you should value.

Money Mindsets in Academia

07:57 Emily: Yeah, I will say from my, you know, my corner of academia and engineering, I did not get the message that money is evil or money is to be shunned. Certainly, we were still under, you know, some money stress depending on how well-funded you are. But definitely from the advisor or the faculty level, we weren’t getting that kind of message. And yet, there were still money mindsets that academia tells even to students in disciplines like that, like all your best time and energy has to be spent on research. Like, you know, you’re not allowed to do XYZ other things in your personal life or earning money on the side. Even if it is not explicitly disallowed, it is certainly frowned upon, because again, you should be spending all your best energy on your research. Things like that. And I think another really sort of damaging thing that happens that probably speaks a little bit more to your experience as a career coach, is that people become anchored at the graduate student salary that they are earning during those years. And so how do they judge what they’re worth in the marketplace after they exit academia when their skills can and should be valued much differently? But how do they, you know, transform their own understanding of the value that they bring? Maybe we can talk more about that.

09:14 Jen: And I also see from scientists that, of course it varies and everyone’s experience is unique, but a lot of worry about getting a quote unquote industry job is morally inferior. And I think part of that is that those jobs pay better than academia. And I think people not only would you make more money, but potentially, I mean, depending, you would have a better life and a better career. Because there’s just lots more variety out there. And there’s a lot more better places that one could be for a lot of people. But I do think that money is part of it as a signal of virtue. Does that make sense, Emily?

09:56 Emily: Yes, I definitely hear what you’re saying. I actually would add onto that. It’s possible that you can have more of an impact on the world in industry than you could in academia, potentially, depending on your field. So, there’s that too. Is your scholarship actually getting out there?

10:11 Jen: Yeah. More money, more impact.

Financially Damaging Money Mindsets

10:14 Emily: We’ve talked about how these money mindsets are not true, damaging in some ways. How is this financially damaging?

10:25 Jen: Whoo boy, the two-word answer is compound interest. The more that you can put away, even very, very, very small amounts, earlier on makes such a huge disproportionate difference over the long-term. There is such a potentially, I mean, again, it really varies, but there is a real opportunity cost to spending time in academia, as a graduate student who is not earning, you know, a whole lot of money. And then, you know, if you do post-docs and then in a lot of disciplines, even a tenure-track professorship, is not going to pay you really enough to live in a lot of cases. And that, you know, life isn’t about comparing oneself to others, but it does put you behind, to use that framing, other people with similar types of education in terms of your financial resources. And of course, if you have debt.

11:20 Emily: I couldn’t agree more. I mean, you know, sometimes I think about there’s been, I don’t know, I think I’ve seen studies from time to time on, “Oh, a PhD is worthwhile like salary-wise because yes, you take this income hit early on, but then later you could make, you know, much more than you would with just a bachelor’s or whatever.” But I really wonder, and I have not done the math on this. I really wonder, well, you’re disagreeing with even that assertion because I’m sure it is very individual, entirely. But even taking that as a given, if you then factor in the opportunity costs for compound interest of paying off your debt, starting to invest for the long-term for retirement, it becomes very dubious.

11:58 Jen: Well, that’s just it. That’s just it. Exactly what you say. Like, even if the salary itself is higher, you’re starting so much later than other people. Like Emily, you and I are both in North America, U.S./Canada context. PhDs take a while. You know, on average, somebody is 30, more than 30, almost 30, right, when they finish, with limited prior work experience. And yeah, it’s not just about annual salary. I’ve seen those studies where everybody’s like, “Look how much more money PhDs make” than people with other degrees. And yes, that is an average. And, you know, it varies a lot. A lot. Not only between disciplines, it does vary a lot between disciplines, but within disciplines, it varies a lot, over gender and race and immigration status, et cetera, subfield. And whether you’re in an academic career track or not, right?

12:54 Jen: There’s a lot of variety there. But yeah, it’s not just about your salary number. It’s not just about that. Yeah. It’s about all of the other things you said. You know, if you’re 10 years later entering the housing market, you might not enter the housing market, et cetera. Anyways, I don’t mean to bemoan and lament, but I do think that it is a message that if anybody listening is considering a PhD or in a PhD program earlier on and doubting whether they should continue, please take this seriously and know that I respect any and all decisions to not apply, not enroll and potentially, you know, if it’s right for you, to not continue in a PhD, because it really might not be the right thing for you for lots of reasons, including financial ones.

Working on the Post-PhD Money Mindset

13:40 Emily: Yes. I would actually love to expand on that. So, we were just saying, okay, to people who have not yet applied for graduate school or are early on in your graduate school journey, take seriously any doubts you may be having and explore other career possibilities for you. For my part, I’m a little less don’t do the PhD, but I’m more on like, why don’t you get some work experience and see what’s out there for you and be able to judge the PhD more, not from, okay, I just got out of undergrad and this is what I want to do, but judge it in a little bit of a more informed context? So let’s say someone is on that path and they’re firm about finishing the PhD, but they’re still early on or, you know, midway through. What can that person be doing to be, you know, both working on their mindset, setting themselves up for financial and career success, following the PhD, what can they do at that stage?

14:31 Jen: I think that, you know, and this comes from my own work, you know, day-to-day career coaching PhDs. I think it is never too early, never too early to think about your career because there is, and I don’t, I think this surprises people, there is so much work that you can do that you really ought to do, but you know, that you can do before you ever apply for a job. And part of that is about money and how much you really need and how much, you know, you 10 years from now is going to want. But I would really, the quicker that you can get into a job and the quicker that you can get into a job and a career that is one that you like, and you can really excel in and you know, it doesn’t sort of match up that you would excel in a career and you make money, but a little bit, right, the quicker you can make that happen for yourself after you graduate, the better.

15:28 Jen: So, do all of the work that you can when you’re still a student. And I just mean the self-assessment, the reflection, like what you were talking about, Emily. Identifying the right, you mentioned identifying the careers that you are interested in going into, right? Like do all of the work ahead of time to identify those, and then start building your network, and, and draw on your network to learn more about those career paths, to get really specific about the types of work that you could do. To have a kind of a draft resume in place for various different kinds of roles that you might apply for. Again, long before you ever get to the point of application. So that six months, four months before graduation, before you’re kind of ready to work, you can hit the ground running.

16:13 Emily: You mentioned like doing self-assessments and so forth. I did a lot of that stuff and it was provided by the career center at my university. I wouldn’t say I showed up at every event, but I was definitely like a regular frequent flyer at, you know, what they had going on. And I was able to do like, yeah, some of the various self-assessments and that was wonderful.

Career Exploration: Know Thyself

16:30 Emily: So, there’s resources that may be available to graduate students through their career centers. There’s your website of course, From PhD to life. Do you know, would you recommend any other resources outside of the university context, for people to help in this like career exploration phase?

16:46 Jen: Yeah. I think at this point, anything can be useful. And so, you know, I think it can sound really simple, simplistic but even just sitting down and making a list of the things that you actually truly value and that are really important to you, that there’s real power in that. Taking a few minutes and just doing a brain dump, like, okay, what do I actually value in having, and write it down. Make a visual of it and make a graphic that you stick on your computer desktop. I mean, whatever it is so that you can keep reminding yourself when academic culture is swirling around you, which can be, I’m exaggerating, but it can be a bit of a totalizing culture and impose values and priorities on you that, you know, can kind of make things messy, just to remind yourself of what you truly value.

17:42 Jen: When I say anything can be useful at this point, I mean, sure do the Myers-Briggs. Scientifically dubious, doesn’t matter, because point is to give you new language, like literal words, and new perspectives, different perspectives on the types of skills and strengths that you have. So, any kind of like skill assessment, strengths test, value survey, anything like that, you can find online. Any of those that can be really kind of interesting to get you thinking about yourself in a different way. And then make your own lists. Some people like spreadsheets. And take advantage of any and all assessments that, yeah, you get from your career center on campus if that’s available to you. This process, I’m talking about it like it’s a mess, and that’s because it is a mess. So, it’s fine. And the other thing I would say is that this is not a process of identifying your one true right job.

Do Not Get Stuck on the “Dream Job”

18:42 Jen: Your dream job. No, no. Wipe that from your mind. That’s not a thing. A lot of jobs out there are broadly similar. And you, whatever your PhD discipline, whatever your background, you can do a lot of them. So they’re broadly similar and you can do a lot of them. And so what becomes important is not that particular job title, but more where in the world do you want to live? What kind of lifestyle do you want to have? What the vibe of the office that you want to be in? What kinds of like actual work do you want to do every day? Who do you want to hang out with? What kind of impact do you want to make? So all of those kinds of questions that, like job title is not even that relevant. At a certain point, you’re going to try and identify some so that you can find jobs to apply to. And so that your network can help you out by making suggestions. But yeah, it’s a mess. Embrace the mess and know yourself.

19:37 Emily: At that stage. Because you can be really open to a lot of different things, like you were saying. We’re not at all trying to like narrow things down, right? It’s about sort of broadening. So, I’m also thinking about, for an early-stage graduate student, mid-stage graduate student, how to mitigate this financial damage that we were talking about. And so very briefly, I just want to say, as you said earlier, compound interest. So if you are at a stage in your finances, when you’re able to save, get an emergency fund together, but after that start tackling your debt, start investing if that’s where you are. And I of course talk about that many, many other interviews and so forth. So people can find a lot more resources. But as you said earlier, the early you get started, small amounts of money, perfectly fine. It’s still going to make a difference.

The Value of Outside Work Experiences

20:18 Emily: So don’t dismiss just because you’re a graduate student, “Oh, I can only save 50 bucks a month or I can only save a hundred bucks a month.” That’s amazing. That would be a lot of money if you actually got that invested. So don’t dismiss that while you’re, you know, doing all this other career stuff. I also want to bring up outside work experience. You know, you mentioned earlier, like, you know, think about your network and so forth, and you can do that without working. You can expand your network. But you know, for some PhD students, it is possible to do internships or to have some kind of side hustle, that’s going to ultimately help you in your later job. Can you speak to that a little bit?

20:53 Jen: Yeah. And I take your point, Emily, that you said for some they can have, because yes, acknowledgement that, you know, it does depend on visa status and the contract, et cetera, et cetera. But, so in response to a Tweet I sent earlier this morning, somebody, I think she’s a humanities PhD student, said that in her program, when she was doing her PhD, she was reflecting on one of her colleagues had this like prestigious grant. So she didn’t have to have a job on campus to pay the rent. Because she had the prestigious grant. And the person who wrote the tweet was saying, you know, I didn’t have that, but instead I worked outside of academia and that, you know, the implication here being that, that gave me the same amount of money. And the vibe she got, not only the vibe, the actual literal the message she got from her professors in the department was that the fellowship was of greater value.

21:46 Jen: Even though from our perspective now, as people out in the world, you know, working jobs, we know that actually in some ways having actual work experience is more valuable. And that is really, really, really important and can’t be undervalued. This is not, you know, to ask students to do more and more and more work. But just to say that when you are making decisions about what to do in your kind of free time, quote unquote, you know, where you have a choice about whether to do this and this and this, just to pause and say, “Well, the, the thing that I think that I should do is adjunct one more course.” Well, hold up, just think to yourself, what is the value of adjuncting a course versus stepping up your side hustle or getting a job outside campus, even just in retail? I mean, it’s not obvious from where I sit that adjuncting a course is the right move. Whereas that can be like just a totally obvious thing according to academics, but no no no. I mean, it really depends. So, I would, you know, use your critical thinking skills and question the things that seem obvious to you.

Commercial

23:00 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. You are invited to my brand new half-day workshop, Chart Your Course to Financial Success. The central question this workshop will help you answer is what should my singular financial goal be right now and how should I best pursue it? I’ll teach you my eight-step financial framework that explains when you should save versus pay off debt versus invest. And we’ll explore many, many strategies to increase your income and or decrease your expenses. I will facilitate the workshop exclusively for funded graduate students on Saturday, December 12th, 2020, and exclusively for PhDs on Sunday, January 10th, 2021. You can learn more and sign up at pfforphds.com/chart. That’s P F F O R P H D s.com/ C H A R T. The deadline to register for the December 12th workshop is Wednesday, December 9th. So, don’t delay. There are discounts currently available for both workshops and registration is limited. Now, back to the interview.

Pay Attention to Your Base Salary

24:10 Emily: Let’s now talk about someone who’s finishing up about to finish up the PhD, and maybe about to finish up a postdoc, if that’s the choice that you made following the PhD. And you want to get a real job and it’s not going to be in academia. So, what can a person who’s reached that stage do, again, to mitigate the damage that the mindsets and the financial damage that academia has caused?

24:31 Jen: It’s really tricky this because you know, some people ask, how do I know when to take this job now, or to take the risk of turning it down in hopes that I would get a higher offer six months from now? So, you know, I think it’s not obvious what the answer is and it will highly depend on the individual person. But one thing for sure to think about is, when you’re ready to accept and negotiate a job offer, right? Accept and negotiate, right?

25:02 Jen: Both of those together. That your base salary is a really important consideration. It’s not the only thing up for negotiation. It’s not the only thing to discuss. But that a one time payout, like a bonus, like a signing bonus of five grand, for example, that seems great in the moment and sure you could invest that, but over the long-term, it’s probably better for you to have like $500 extra on your base salary, something like that. I mean, I can’t do the math immediately, but I think tending to base salary is really important.

Do Not Underestimate the Value of Your Network

25:37 Emily: To pick up where we left off with the career exploration, exploration of yourself. Now this person is ready to narrow things down and apply for some jobs. So, what do they do at that stage?

25:53 Jen: Yeah. So, I think don’t underestimate the value of your network. And before people are like, “Hold up, Jen, I don’t have a network.” No, you have a network, you have a network and you know people, and the people that know you also know other people. And, it can depend, but your academic network, don’t discount them. Even if you’re applying for non-academic jobs. Again, it can depend. But, I mean, I have a client now who is a research associate, a post-doc, and he was nervous about talking to his PI about the fact that he’s, you know, he’s on the job market. And he had the conversation and the PI was very supportive. And then the PI sent a few emails. My client got some interviews literally the next week and, you know, might have a job offer like within like a month. And so don’t discount the value that your network can come through for you.

26:54 Jen: And I know in my work with PhDs, with my own clients, but also all of the research that I’ve done over the years that you talking with people, and that’s all I mean when I say you should network, is you should interact actively with people in your field, with other professionals, quote, unquote. Just actively interact with people, that pays off enormously. And if you don’t do that, it’s going to be so, so, so, so, so much harder. At this stage, unless you have really particular technical skills, and I would wager that a huge number of PhDs don’t–and that’s not a criticism, that’s not a criticism–but if you don’t have these like really narrow, really specific, really rare technical skills, and you’re not at the right place at the right time, then you really have to use your network.

People Can Connect Us to New Opportunities

27:48 Jen: And that’s all of us. Not only so that potentially you could get referred to a job, you could be an inside hire as it were. Right? That’s great. But it’s not only that. It’s so that you can learn what’s out there. It’s so that you have people on your team to send you job ads. I applied for a job in September, and I wouldn’t have seen it except that somebody that I know and have known over the years. I’m not frequently in contact with her, but she kind of knows about me in general. She sent me the job ad as soon as she saw it posted. And I was like, “Oh my goodness.” And what happened is I had a number of other people send me the job ad subsequently.

28:26 Emily: Your branding is so clear that many people could identify what is a perfect job for you.

28:31 Jen: Exactly, exactly. Right. Exactly.

28:34 Emily: I actually have another story to add to that pile, which is how my husband got his job in industry. And so this is more about the value of networking with people from your own program who have moved on in the years prior to you. Because it’s not just the faculty who have networks. It’s anybody who’s exited academia. Even an undergraduate that you worked with who is now in the workforce can be a contact in your network. So my husband, some person who had graduated from his program a couple years earlier, sent a job listing for his, you know, at the time current company to my husband’s PI and said, I know that your lab lines up very well with what we do here. Could you show this to your students who are graduating? And that happened, and my husband got that position. So that was like just, yep. Clearly networking. Because of course it was on the strength of his PIs reputation. This individual didn’t know my husband in particular. But yeah, that’s exactly how it happened and it was quick and easy.

29:31 Jen: Yeah. And that’s what you want. Right? I mean, life doesn’t always work out that way, but quick and easy means that there was years of work that went into that ahead of time, but it doesn’t have to difficult. It’s all, I mean, it’s just about making friends, having good conversations and doing work that you find interesting and that you find engaging. And if you do that over the years and you are in conversation with people about that, hopefully kind of stars align at a certain point and it seems easy.

Always Try to Negotiate Your Starting Offer

30:03 Emily: Yes, exactly great point. So, okay. Our candidate has, you know, done the job searching, done the self-reflection, applying for jobs. You mentioned a moment ago, negotiating base salary as incredibly important. And so this to me also is one, probably your biggest opportunity, to mitigate financial damage that’s occurred during your PhD, is to get that first starting offer as high as you reasonably can within the scope of the field and your skills and so forth. But to negotiate that offer, because I think some PhDs might be kind of bowled over by, “Oh my goodness. You’re offering me how much money?” And again, they’re anchored to their graduate student salary. And so, might just feel so grateful, yeah, and I get that, that they don’t negotiate. But really it’s expected. It’s absolutely expected in industry and it’s probably going to be pretty well-received.

30:54 Emily: Even if the answer is, no, this is a union job and you can’t negotiate, that might be the answer, but you’re not going to be faulted for trying. Right? So, definitely at least attempt that negotiation, because as you said, having a slightly higher base salary, that’s going to affect for sure, whatever salaries you have, as long as you stay at that company. And may even beyond that, if you know, employers shouldn’t, but are allowed to, at least in the U.S. In many cases ask about prior salaries, it depends on what state you’re in. So it’s possible that it could even affect once you leave that, you know, that particular employer, could still follow you. So getting that starting salary as high as you can is a great idea. Even if it seems really scary and daunting to you in terms of the number.

31:38 Jen: Yeah. And I would recognize, you know, everything in life is a risk. Sure. Of course. But once an employer has made an offer to you, they are imagining you solving their problem and hanging out with them every day. And that gives you some power here. As I say, there’s a risk, but I would, you know, own the power that you have in that situation to make a strong case for yourself. You have to make the case. But you want to be successful in that position long-term to help the team grow, et cetera, et cetera. And so, you’re going to show up for them and they should show up for you in terms of base salary.

Good Employers Make their Employees Feel Valued

32:22 Emily: Yeah. And I think it actually goes back to what we talked about earlier that academia, for whatever reason, decides to put this financial stress on its trainees. Your employer probably does not want you to be under that kind of financial stress. They want to pay you enough to reflect the value, to make you feel like you’re valued. That you’re not going jump ship and go to someone else. That you’re going to be able to live in the city that they’re in, you know, comfortably without having to move an hour away for your commute. All of that stuff affects your performance at work. And so it can all come into play when you think about what is the salary that I want to have to perform well in this position? That’s really your opportunity to express that.

32:57 Jen: To a certain extent, there’s some recalibration that might need to happen for folks coming out of academia, where things can be such a struggle, and you can have this impression that any employer is kind of out to get you, out to screw you over. Depending on the experience that you have in academia and the experience of your colleagues and friends around you. But yeah, as Emily said, I mean, any employer that you would really want to work for, they recognize the crucial importance of their labor, of the people doing the work. I mean, this is so, so, so important, and employers, good employers, employers that you want to work for. And there’s lots of them out there. They’re not going to pay you outrageous sums of money potentially, but they want you to be able to have the lifestyle and do the work and be happy and get what you need to be on their team, solving their problems. So, I would assume, assume that they want to pay you equitably right. Fairly and adequately. And, you know, maybe a little more than that. I would assume that, and go forth.

34:04 Jen: Yeah, I am glad you put in the caveat of a good employer, because certainly there are ones that–maybe not employers broadly, but maybe a manager, someone who views this more as a competitive thing, like I’m going to pay you less because I have that better from my bottom line. But it really should be viewed more so as, “We want you to do a great job, and we’re going to compensate you well to do that great job.” And certainly if you get into a salary negotiation process with an employer and you’re getting a vibe that they don’t really seem like they want to support you, then that’s your red flag. And that’s the time to go back to the exploring you’ve done and go back and look at other, you know, positions that you might have, and so forth.

Avoiding Lifestyle Inflation and Unhealthy Mindsets

34:40 Emily: Okay. So, let’s then talk about, you’ve got the job, maybe you’re a few months, a few years into that point. What should you still be doing to again be mitigating the mindset and the literal financial damage that your time in academia has wrought?

34:55 Jen: Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, I think there’s lots of things that one could say here, but something that comes to mind for me is a phrase that I’m sure, you know, people that grew up in this part of the world have heard, penny-wise and pound-foolish, right? And to a certain extent, you know, when you’re in academia, there are a lot of things that you don’t pay outright for, of course you do pay for them through tuition, et cetera. But it doesn’t occur to you. So there might be things that you yourself would want to invest in, to use that term. And I use that term kind of in a broader sense that will help you over the long term. Ideally, your employer pays for professional development and pays for coaching and whatever, pays therapy, right? Ideally you have benefits around that. But it could be, you know, if you don’t, or if you’re unemployed at the moment, that it can be really valuable to invest in those kinds of services for a relatively short amount of time, because the investment as a metaphor is the right one, because there will be a longer-term payoff.

36:01 Jen: And if you can get your career started kind of on a good footing, great. Right? It’s just so helpful. It’s so helpful. And I would sit down with a money advisor, financial advisor, or whatever the term is, you know, somebody who can kind of tell you things, even if it’s your mom, right? Because if you can get into the lifestyle kind of early on of making good decisions around money, but also, you know, making decisions about you suddenly have more money, hopefully maybe you can set money aside for vacation. You know, that’s a good thing too, et cetera.

36:43 Emily: I totally agree. And actually, this is a phase that I’ve come to now that I’m, you know, a few years post-PhD and into my career, my business with Personal Finance for PhDs, is this idea of investing in myself was something I was very reluctant to do, right? Because I was being penny wise, pound foolish right when I finished my PhD because I wasn’t making that much money yet. So how can I, you know, decide to invest? But actually, you were one of the first people who I worked with, you know, near the start of my business. And it was a was a small investment, but I joined one of your programs. And it, I mean, I still talk about it and laud it, this was Self-Employed PhD, and how we originally met and what an impact that made on me.

37:23 Emily: And I’ve since then been much more willing to invest in training and professional development for myself. So I would definitely, I mean, obviously my field as an entrepreneur is, is different from what other people were doing, but just be thinking about what are the professionals, if it’s again, not provided, as you said, through your workplace, which sometimes it is, what professionals might I work with that can help further my career further, my financial development? Of course you are one of those professionals. If the question is more on the career front with PhD to Life. I am one of those professionals if the question is more on the, how do I handle my finances? How do I handle my budget? You know, what should I be saving for? What should my life look like? If those are the kinds of questions, then of course, feel free to work with me, but there are also many other types of professionals, depending on the exact needs that you have.

Invest in Your Future

38:06 Emily: And as you said, it is an investment. It takes money to work with a professional in the way that we’re talking about. But ideally, the dividends are going to start coming very, very soon after you begin that relationship. Another sort of financial tip, I’ll definitely say, once you’re into that, you know, your career and you’re making a much better salary than you were as a post-doc or as a graduate student. This is now the time to not super increase your lifestyle. Yes. Hopefully, you will be spending more so that you don’t feel stressed. But to some extent you should keep your lifestyle level on a little bit lower than maybe where you see your new colleagues at because you do need to make up for lost time a little bit, and doing things like starting to invest inside your company’s 401(k), even maxing out that 401(k). So to be going into those tax advantaged, designed for retirement types of accounts to a great degree, I mean, just put money away from your salary. You never see it coming in your paycheck. It’s all payroll deductions. That’s the best way to do things. So it might seem like a large number. Right now, a 401(k) in the U.S. would be $19,500 per year to max that out as an employee.

39:17 Emily: Why not? Why not? If your salary has jumped up by much more than that in this transition, why not go for that? Why not have that be your new anchor in your mind? So think about maxing out that 401(k), or at least contributing a good amount to it. Think about making serious, serious progress on your student loans if you have decided that you’re not going to go for an income-driven repayment plan and forgiveness plan. So all kinds of other questions, but this is the time when you get into that job where you can really, like you were saying earlier, you know, hitting the ground running like you’ve done these years of preparation for your career so that by the time it’s finally time to apply for a job, you’re ready and raring to go. It’s kind of the same thing financially. You’ve been keeping your lifestyle low for such a long time. Now you have the salary, don’t do too much lifestyle inflation and just get saving, get investing, get on that debt.

Think of Your Future Self

40:02 Emily: When we were preparing for this interview, you told me you had a message for people earlier on in their PhD journeys than you are currently. So what is that message?

40:12 Jen: Oh boy, your future self is going to care so much more about money than you do now. You know, if you’re in a PhD program, like I started my PhD at 24, like I was like, “Whoa, $15,000 a year.” This was a while ago now. Great. I can’t believe, you know, we hear this all the time. I can’t believe I’m going to get paid to do a PhD. That’s amazing. Okay. Awesome. Congratulations. But just know that your future self is going to care so much more. I mean, I happily, relatively happily, lived with a roommate for years and years and years, and I now live by myself and I pay a lot more money for that privilege, but I just, I just don’t, I don’t want to go back. Right? And so, of course I need a lot more money than I used to. And that, yeah, your future self is going to thank you i you care about it a little bit more than you might be inclined to when you’re, say, 24.

41:15 Emily: Yeah. And by doing the things that we’ve been talking about, like negotiating, like starting to invest early, even if none of your peers are doing it. Like having a side hustle maybe to bring in a little bit of extra money. I’ll say from my perspective too, like now that I, you know, my husband and I got married during graduate school, so we really, you know, we didn’t need any more money after our marriage than we did before. We were both in graduate school. But after we finished our PhDs, we had a couple babies and you know what, once you get on that train, things get very expensive very quickly. And so that’s not at all to say that you can’t have children earlier. That’s just my personal journey, but I certainly feel like we need to command a much higher salary at this stage in our lives and our family formation than we did years ago when we were, you know, DINKS [dual income, no kids]. So there’s that too, if you want that in your future. Yeah. It’s something to start thinking about now.

42:08 Jen: One of my recent clients, she lives in an expensive part of the U.S. Right? Granted but the lifestyle that she has now, a few years out of her PhD with a couple of kids and, you know, a mortgage and all of the above, she really can’t accept a job that pays her less than $150,000 a year. And right. It’s just the reality. And that might seem outrageous to folks listening now who are living on, $30k or less, maybe much less. Like, just keep that in mind. It’s not, you know, I’m not saying that my client, she’s not greedy. It’s just the reality of the situation. Life can get expensive really quickly.

42:45 Emily: Yeah. And I’ll link actually in the show notes, a wonderful interview I did with Dr. Scott Kennedy a year or two ago where he talks about his own realizations as he formed his family during graduate school, that he was going to have to change his career plans, to go into a different field that was going to pay more because he could not afford, now that he had a family, to stay on the track that he had been on. Even though that was sort of intellectually, maybe his preference from earlier on. So these kinds of things have, you know, your life has real impacts on how much money you need to make. And that’s something to start, you know, being realistic about as early on as possible.

How Can People Work With You, Jen?

43:24 Emily: All right, Jen, how can people work with you, should they, you know, if they’ve been intrigued by this interview?

43:32 Jen: For sure. Yeah. Thanks for asking. So, start on my website fromphdtolife.com. I work with individuals. I do small group things, coaching, open discussions. Those are a lot of fun. Shout out to small group things. I think those are awesome. I do drop-ins for Self-Employed PhDs. So, if that applies to you at all, check those out. And then I also work with institutions. So I’m happy to come to your campus, virtually please, I do a presentation or a workshop. I love workshops. So there’s different options.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

44:07 Emily: Wonderful. And final question that I ask of all my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?

44:15 Jen: So this is a totally “do as I did, and also, as I say,” usually those two things do not go together. But one thing that I have been doing for 20 years, gosh, wow, something like that, is I track every penny. There are no pennies in Canada anymore. I track everything that I spend. So I know how much my life costs. Like I literally know how much my life costs in different categories. And years ago, I used to do this on a, it wasn’t even Excel. I use the WordPerfect version of excel, just a spreadsheet. But now there are lots of programs out there. But I think, you know, tracking what you spend is really, really important. It’s different from budgeting. You can do both together. But the example I like to give is like, I think this is really common for grad students.

45:11 Jen: Like you might spend like a lot of money, like on clothing kind of once or twice a year, not on a monthly basis. So some of the kind of standard ways of thinking about budgeting is sort of like a monthly thing. You go to your big annual conference one month and suddenly you’ve spent $2,000 more than, right? So anyways, but track, and then you can see the trends over time. And by seeing the amount of money that you’re spending in different categories, literally being able to like, see it on a spreadsheet, you can make decisions, better decisions about, you know, how much, how do you really want to spend $200 on takeout every month? Maybe. Yes. Maybe no. Right. But it makes it very clear.

45:55 Emily: I totally totally agree. Foundational personal finance advice. Step number one, track your spending. Track your expenses. Well Jen, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your expertise.

46:07 Jen: Thank you.

Outtro

46:09 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Curb Your Impulse to Keep Up with the Joneses

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Joy Lere, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant on the danger of “keeping up with the Joneses.” Joy explains how emotionally unsatisfying and financially damaging trying to keep up with the Joneses is and that contentment can only come from within yourself. PhDs anticipating future income jumps would do well to put off lifestyle inflation for a least a few years after their salaries increase, which will give them more career and lifestyle choices in the future.

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Links Mentioned in This Episode

keep up with the Joneses

Teaser

00:00 Joy: If you can understand that this idea of peer comparison, it is going to be ever-present, and it’s not so much that the environment or the people around you need to change. What needs to flip is the script in your mind, in terms of the mentality you have when looking to the people in your life.

Introduction

00:28 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 12, and today my guest is Dr. Joy Lere, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant. Our topic is the danger of keeping up with the Joneses. Joy explains how emotionally unsatisfying, and financially damaging, trying to keep up with the Joneses is, and that contentment can only come from within yourself. PhDs anticipating future income jumps would do well to put off lifestyle inflation for at least a few years after their salaries increase, which will give them more career and lifestyle choices in the future. This interview really hit home for me, as I reflected on my post-PhD life and finances and where my family is headed next. As you might have garnered from listening to previous episodes of this podcast, I had a pretty good handle on my finances by the end of grad school.

01:30 Emily: And I was truly satisfied with my lifestyle. I had defeated my Joneses. Or so I thought. Then, my husband and I moved to Seattle. We rented a relatively inexpensive apartment in a wealthy neighborhood. There’s a lot of tech money in Seattle, as I’m sure you know. Suddenly, I wasn’t comparing my lifestyle to that of other graduate students in a medium cost-of-living city, but to other full-fledged adults in a high cost-of-living city. I distinctly remember my first and hardest-hitting Jones moment in Seattle. Shortly after we had our first child, I joined a mother support group in my neighborhood. Our first meeting was in the home of our group leader, and each participant would rotate hosting subsequent meetings. I remember walking into our group leader’s house, which was gigantic, gorgeous, and immaculate. It was somewhat shocking to me. Plus, during the meeting, our group leader casually mentioned she was in the process of custom building another house in our neighborhood to move to the next year.

02:33 Emily: My heart sank, knowing that I would eventually host these mothers and babies in my small, dingy, undecorated apartment. That cheap apartment had been a strategic financial choice upon our move. We were following the advice to live like a grad student so that we could keep our retirement savings rate high while I got my business off the ground and we adjusted to parenthood. Even though we had good reasons for living in that apartment, those reasons paled for me, when I saw where and how my group leader lived. And I started questioning all our choices. That was my first big post-PhD Jones moment. I got past that feeling, kind of, eventually, for that situation, but now my husband and I are in the early stages of searching for our very first home to purchase. And I can sense myself starting to become aware again of the Joneses. Since buying a house in Southern California is such a big, expensive decision, I know I have to be really conscious about those feelings and influences. That’s why the subject of this interview was so timely for me. I hope it will be for you as well. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Joy Lere.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:50 Emily: I am just delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Dr. Joy Lere. She is a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant, such an interesting combination. So, I’m really happy to have her on the podcast today. We’re actually going to be talking about keeping up with the Joneses. Or rather, how not to keep up with the Joneses. So, Joy, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

04:11 Joy: Absolutely. It is a joy and a privilege to be here with you today. My name is Joy Lere. I am a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral finance consultant. So, essentially I am someone who as a clinician works where Freud meets finance. So, I live and work outside of Napa, California, and I’ve a telemedicine practice where I see patients for psychotherapy. And I also work in specializing in consultation within the finance industry. So within that role, I’m providing support, training, education, coaching, and psychotherapy also to financial planners and financial advisors, because there are a lot of really exciting things happening within the industry where there’s more and more attention being given to the fact that people’s relationship with their money is not just a matter of math or economic theory. Money itself is emotional currency. So, having an understanding of human psychology and how that drives financial decisions is really starting to be integrated more and more into the world of finance.

05:33 Emily: Yes. Thank you so much for that description. Yes, of course, I have observed this trend as well. And I’m really excited to have you on. Actually, I did an interview some time ago with Dr. Daniel Crosby. So, we’ll link that from the show notes as well, since that was on a similar topic.

05:47 Joy: He is a good friend and just, he’s fabulous.

Tell Us a Little More About Your Education

05:52 Emily: Oh yeah, it was a wonderful conversation. Would you also tell us a little bit more about your education, because you’ve spent some time in academia as well?

05:58 Joy: Yes. So, I obtained my master’s degree while living abroad in the UK for a couple of years. And I decided after that experience and after starting my clinical work in England, that I wasn’t quite yet ready to be done with school. So, my husband is in the military. We made our way back across the pond. And then I went to graduate school at George Washington University and obtained my doctorate in clinical psychology while I was there.

Can You Define “Keeping Up with the Joneses”?

06:33 Emily: Yeah. Wonderful. Okay. So, our topic for today, keeping up with the Joneses. Probably a phrase that maybe everyone’s heard in the audience, but can you give a little bit more of a fine point on the definition?

06:45 Joy: Absolutely. So, this is a phrase that’s popularized in society, and it really speaks to the way that people look around their social spheres and circles, and look oftentimes at their peers and kind of benchmark their lives and their decisions to that. So, they are seeing something, often an outside image or kind of a curated facade. I think certainly social media makes this even more complicated for people today. And then they think to themselves, “Well, if they have that or they are making that lifestyle choice, that must mean I can, or I should.” So then, they make decisions based on what they are seeing around them.

Does “Keeping Up” Make Anyone Happier?

07:43 Emily: Does attempting to keep up with Joneses actually make anyone happier? You know, we’ll address the financial component of that in a moment, but does it do anything for us emotionally or socially to try to keep up with the Joneses?

07:58 Joy: I think really, being in the comparison trap just keep someone emotionally stuck. Because what is not happening when you’re telling yourself, “I need to be, I need to be doing that. I need to be getting farther ahead,” is you aren’t focusing and being centered from a place of being grateful for what you have and really having a sense of contentment. And when you think about someone’s financial life, when there’s this constant search and drive and need for more and more and more, that can lead to dangerous, destructive places. Being on a hedonic treadmill like that can be exhausting. And the truth is that when a lot of times people think, “Well, I will eventually catch up,” but oftentimes the goalpost just keeps on moving.

09:01 Emily: I was just going to say that the phrase is keeping up with the Joneses, right? It’s not hanging out with the Joneses and being at the same level as the Joneses. It’s just like it implied in the phrase itself is a continual striving, as you were just saying, which sounds totally exhausting. I really like that you make the point that we can also move these goalposts on ourselves. Like yeah. Maybe you caught up with, you know, Jones number one over here. Well, that just means you’re going to switch your attention to Jones number two and try keeping up in some other area.

09:32 Joy: I tell people, throughout your life, there will always be Joneses there. You went to graduate school with them. You looked around there and you were like, “Well, they’re doing this. That means, naturally, that’s what I should be doing.” They are always going to be in your workplace. They’re going to be on whatever street you live. So, you moved to the bigger house, the newer neighborhood. Well then there’s going to be someone else who ultimately has a little bit more. So, if you can understand that this idea of peer comparison, it is going to be ever-present, and it’s not so much that the environment or the people around you need to change. What needs to flip is the script in your mind, in terms of the mentality you have when looking to the people in your life.

The Hedonic Treadmill

10:29 Emily: Yes, such a wonderful point. You mentioned the term hedonic treadmill a couple of minutes ago, and I’m betting not everyone in my audience knows what that is. So, can you explain that a little bit further?

10:42 Joy: This idea that often times we’re running a race, we’re going after more, something better. There’s a desire for enough. And people think they are moving closer to the mark, but really you are just exhausting yourself on a treadmill, and there’s never a finish line. So, when you are caught in this cycle, you’re just going to keep running. And it ultimately is never enough. I think, I encourage people to reflect on this idea of what is enough. Who decides what it is, how much it is, how do you know you have it? You know, even how someone answers that question is, is enough a number? Is it a sense of security? Does the outside world get to decide what enough is? Or is that something that you determine for yourself? No, this is, this is good. I can stop. I can breathe. And I don’t have to continue to feel the need to be amassing more.

11:55 Emily: Mhm. I’m currently reading the book Your Money or Your Life for the very first time. This is inside the Personal Finance for PhD’s Community. We have a book club, so I’m reading it for the book club.

12:06 Joy: That’s fabulous.

12:06 Emily: Yeah, I’m surprised it took me so long to read actually, because of course it has been out for a couple of decades. But anyway, the concept of enough figures very prominently, the argument that the authors are making in that book about having, as you were just saying, determining for yourself, and it’s really about self-reflection and it’s not at all about looking around you at what anybody else is doing. You know, what it is to be content, be full in a sense, like in terms of thinking about your appetite. You’re full, but you don’t want to stuff yourself. You don’t want to go beyond this, you know, level of fullness or contentness or enoughness because it’s damaging not only to your finances, but also to you as a person to, you know, as you were just saying, continually strive to go and beyond, beyond, beyond. One aspect of the hedonic treadmill idea that I understand at any rate is that, maybe it’s a little bit similar to like addiction or like getting into that, but what you need to feel a pleasure hit from spending becomes higher and higher and higher because you become adapted every new spending level.

13:10 Emily: You know, you get to a new spending level, you’re like, “Well, this is fantastic. I have all these new experiences and stuff. It’s wonderful.” And then suddenly it’s just normal and it’s just you again. It’s just you, yourself. And then you have to go to a higher spending level to get that hit again. And that’s the sort of a mountain climbing, like that’s kind of the treadmill aspect of it, is that correct?

13:28 Joy: Yes. Yes.

Keeping Up with the Joneses Affects Your Finances

13:31 Emily: So, we were just talking about how this is not ever going to be emotionally satisfying. What happens to your finances if you are striving to keep up with the Joneses?

13:40 Joy: I think it, peer comparison when it comes to finances is so complex. And oftentimes it is very problematic because peers give you permission to sometimes spend in ways that you ultimately can’t afford. And sometimes there’s pressure or there’s fear of missing out. Now, when we look at this idea and this concept of keeping up with the Joneses, when we look at the financial state of affairs of the average American family, who is indebted, over-leveraged, all of these things, if you are then trying to keep up with someone who is overextending, you are then overextending yourself even more. So, it just perpetuates this problem indefinitely. My great-grandmother who lived through the depression, had this phrase that I love. And I never met her, but it was something that was instilled in my mom. And it was this: “Just because they have it, does not mean they can afford it.”

Just Because They Have It, Does Not Mean They Can Afford It

14:53 Joy: And that is something that so many people confuse. They look at, “Well, this is the house they’re living in. This is the car they are driving. These are the vacations they are taking. And so that must mean like that’s okay.” What they don’t see is what goes on behind closed doors. They don’t see the physical, the psychological cost of the stress that comes with carrying debt. They don’t see the impact of the work stress of the employment situation that person feels like they are trapped in because of the lifestyle that they are living. A lot of that stuff happens behind closed doors. But I tell people, so part of my job as a therapist is–I love my job–so often, I wake up and I’m like, “I truly believe I have the best job in the world because I get to sit behind closed doors with incredibly bright, driven people who are having conversations they aren’t having with anyone else in their lives.” So, I’ve sat behind closed doors with the Joneses. And let me tell you, their lives are not as rich or pretty or neat as most people think when you just see a public-facing persona.

16:28 Emily: Yes. That’s a wonderful phrase from your great-grandmother. And actually, it reminded me of something that my pastor from my church in North Carolina was preaching a sermon one time and was talking about this concept of keeping up with the Joneses. And I remember him saying, you know, if you’re going to follow sort of the the Christian way of handling money, you know, there’s certain things in the Bible, the layout of how you’re supposed to do this. He says, you’re going to be living multiple steps behind who you perceive to be as your peers. You’re going to be living a step behind because you’re not going to be leveraged with debt, at least outside of your mortgage or whatever. You are going to be living in step behind because you’re going to be giving. You’re going to be living a step behind because you’re going to be saving for your future as well.

You’re Going to Be Living Three Steps Behind

17:12 Emily: So, he was like, “You’re going to be living three steps behind, you know, who you perceive to be your peers in terms of like your career or whatever it is.” And that has really stuck with me too, that like, yes, it just, as you were saying, you don’t know how other people are handling, you know, as an outsider, you don’t know what’s going on inside their homes and how they’re really managing to live the lifestyle that you can perceive. And, you know, you brought up social media earlier. We have so many more, I think, potential Joneses in our life right now, because we have access, in a way limited access, to a lot more people from maybe a lot of our different stages of life and even people you don’t know. So, I’m sure that this just exacerbates this entire problem.

17:50 Joy: Yes. And I love what you brought up. You brought up something so important about lifestyle choices. If you do the things that most people do, you are going to get the things that most people get. You’re going to get average. And right now, financially average in our country is not a pretty picture. So, it really requires people to step back and ask, “Okay, what do I really want? And what do I want long-term?” In order to get ahead, you have, especially early on, our little choices compound over time. So, I will often explain to clients and people, if you can make, and this is especially applicable to, to students, to professionals. A lot of times, if you are entering a kind of employment, or you’re graduating, you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to start living the doctor life.” No, hold on.

18:56 Joy: If you can give it a couple of years of living like you are a broke grad student and what you can do with the savings during that time, when a lot of your peers are starting to make very different choices, what that can lead to for you in the long-term is huge. But that requires being able to say, “No.” It requires being able to tolerate, okay. Maybe you’re going to miss out on some things. But, if you can be willing to do things differently than other people, you give yourself a chance at having something bigger and better that most people will never achieve.

Commercial

19:44 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at pfforphds.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products which I add to every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, a book club, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

Present Lifestyle Choices Impact Your Future Comfort

20:49 Emily: I’m really glad that you took the conversation in this direction, because it’s exactly where I wanted to go as well. Talking about, you know, when you have these large income jumps, you know, okay for PhDs, you finished graduate school, maybe you’re moving up to a post-doc. Hopefully, a decent jump in income there. Okay, you’re moving out of the postdoc or directly out of the PhD, you’re getting into a proper job. Hopefully, a big jump there. And maybe, you know, throughout your career, potentially there could be other big jumps as you switch, you know, employers or whatnot. So, a lot of my audience is still in graduate school or is still in training. And so, they’re still anticipating and looking forward to those large income jumps in the future. And of course, the advice you just brought up, you know, there’s versions of it. You know, live like a grad student, live like a college student, live like a resident. It’s basically just, keep that lifestyle, or as close to that lifestyle as you can, from your prior earning stage for at least a little while into that next one. And then as you said, you know, this can do fabulous things to your finances. So, can you elaborate on that a little bit more?

21:45 Joy: Absolutely. And I want to explain. I think something that people often don’t fully understand or account for is in school, or maybe early in your career, you have a picture of, “This is what I’m going to want. I’m on this linear trajectory, professionally.” But things change. Life circumstances change. Sometimes your dreams, your desires, opportunities can lead to different places. And, if you have made financial choices so that you have the freedom and flexibility to change your mind, if you want to at a later time, and not be locked in because of the debt you have and the lifestyle that you have settled into, that gives you a ton of freedom. So, I just really emphasize to students that the things you are doing with your money now in these first years of your career are huge. So, if you can just hold on and be a little bit more conservative in some areas, that can have huge implications for your financial life later on.

Saving During Graduate School

23:11 Emily: Yeah. I actually want to give an example from my own life here. It a little feels like I’m tooting my own horn, but I think it does illustrate what you were just talking about. So, when my husband and I were in graduate school, we did our PhDs at the same time. So, we were both on stipends, same time. We saved, you know, I’m into personal finance, right? So like I was figuring this stuff out early. I was figuring out saving, investing and paying off debt and doing all these things. And so I started that during graduate school. Whereas a lot of people, either one have no opportunity to start saving or investing during graduate school, just completely off the table based on either their going into debt for their degrees, or they’re just simply not paid even a living wage. That was not our case.

23:50 Emily: We were very fortunate. So, we were doing that saving. We, one, could, but two, we took the initiative to do it. We were figuring that out at that time. By the time we finished graduate school, we had amassed quite a decent nest egg. And, you know, one, one attitude could have been during that time, “Well, you know, I may as well just spend what I have have, I don’t really need to save right now because I’m going to have this big income jump in the future. And, you know, it’s going to take care of itself at that time. I won’t worry about investing until, you know, later on.” But because we took that other route of starting as early as we could with, you know, saving and investing and so forth, we had a decent nest egg built up by the time we finished graduate school. That enabled one, my husband to take a job at a startup, which he had never anticipated doing and was completely, you know, really nervous about that.

24:30 Emily: We’re sort of conservative with our careers. And so we were like, “Wow, you know, this good job could go at any point.” But it was just such a perfect fit for him. We were like, “How can he pass this up?” You know, we’ll take the risk. We have the nest egg, we can do that. We can take that risk of him taking that kind of job. Secondarily, I was able to start my business, which meant, you know, just completely going off a different track from, you know, the normal job thing, which is a fantastic opportunity and similarly, very good fit for me. So, I feel like our life, you know, career satisfaction levels were much higher than they would have been had we not been in a financial position at that time to be able to make that choice. And the reason we were in that position was because years earlier we had started this process not really knowing that was how it’s going to work out. You know, we didn’t realize, you know, these opportunities came our way and we could take advantage of them because of the preparation we’d done before that point.

25:19 Joy: Absolutely.

How to Cultivate Contentment in the Now

25:21 Emily: So, I’m thinking about a graduate student, probably. Maybe a post-doc, who is currently maybe even practicing not keeping up with the Joneses. Because they probably have a lot of Joneses in their lives that they couldn’t possibly keep up with. Right? Like it’s just not even a feasible thing for them to do right now. So, what would you say to that person about how to still cultivate contentment in their life when they know they can’t even possibly play the game with the Joneses right now, and also how to maintain that once maybe they are able to get in the game once their income is higher?

25:57 Joy: I think, you know, this idea of game and even if we bring it back to the race. if you can understand everyone is playing a different game, and if you can focus on running your own race and just stay in your lane, that is going to set you up for success. Now, I don’t think that if you are not trying to keep up and you’re making a concerted effort around that, that doesn’t mean your life needs to be devoid of fun and human connection. I think, I encourage people to be creative. You can be the one driving the conversation, making suggestions. And the truth is, sometimes if you are maybe doing things or suggesting things to your social circle that are not going to be exorbitantly costly, there are probably going to be some people who are really relieved. Because here’s the thing. Everyone’s running this race.

27:04 Joy: And some people are more aware of it than others. Some people, based on their upbringing and what they bring to the table in terms of their own money scripts, and what gets activated for them around money, they may have different thoughts and feelings about it. But that’s one way to think about it. And you know, this transition when you do have more income, I think it’s important that it doesn’t become, you know, if you think about someone who’s been on a diet and then it’s like, everything is suddenly available, I’m just going to binge. If you can keep a mentality of moderation, that is going to serve you going forward.

Take Ownership of Social Spending

27:50 Emily: I love those two suggestions. And especially the first one around like, it’s sort of like, money decisions, let’s say about social spending with your peer group. They don’t have to happen to you, right? Like you can actually sort of take the wheel and say, at least some of the time, I’m going to be suggesting things to do that are within my budget. Like you said, probably some other people will be relieved. And so, you know, you can do a combination of planning things and maybe saying yes or no here or there to things that other people suggest. So that you’re not, you know, always, always saying no to everything, but yeah, you can keep it more within your range and steer things. I know, certainly for me in graduate school I found a group of friends that I was comfortable socializing with and we all sort of had the same manner of socializing that we enjoyed, and it was very inexpensive. And it was really good for all of us in that sense.

28:40 Emily: And so, you sort of find your people, is maybe one way. So like, there aren’t so many Joneses, so close to you in your life. I had a couple other ideas about how to like combat this, you know, impulse to keep up with the Joneses. One was to redefine what you’re jonesing for. So like instead of jonesing for the consumption aspects of using your money, Jones for like, “I’m going to max out that 401k,” like “I’m going to, you know, be striving”–if you want to strive for something–be striving for something that’s ultimately going to benefit your finances instead of, you know, working in the opposite direction for you.

29:17 Joy: Change your status symbols.

Happiness is Not Contingent on What You Are Chasing

29:20 Emily: Yes. Oh, that’s a great way of putting it. I love that. It’s very, you know, it’s millionaire next door. Right. So, try to be like that person. Are there any other like sort of behavioral finance tips that you would suggest for, you know, helping people achieve their financial goals without letting these Jones impulses kind of get in their way?

29:40 Joy: Well, I think just really paying attention to what you are benchmarking to, this idea of this is the baseline. I think that’s really important. As you think about and reflect on, I think developing financial self-awareness and doing some reflection and understanding about what gets activated for you with your money, and really starting to dig into some of the more core beliefs you carry about money and how that drives what you do with it. I think those are really important foundational places for people to start.

30:26 Emily: Yeah, I think going along with those exercises as well, and you just mentioned this, is sort of remembering where you’ve come from. Like remembering the influences, of course, that your parents have, and then maybe your peers, you know, through different stages of your life. And remembering like, especially once you’ve passed, like the graduate school stage, like, “Okay, back then I did live on this amount of money. I did have this size of home. I did do these things. Was I happy then? Was I content then? Why are things different now? Could they be more similar to how things were in the past?” I’m asking myself some of these questions now that I’m, you know, a few years out of graduate school.

31:02 Joy: If you are telling yourself, “I will be happy when,” and you are then looking to something in the future, I would really encourage you to go back into your history and think about this idea of happy. What is some other evidence you have that there have been other times when you’ve had that feeling that experience that you haven’t had that thing? So, happiness is not contingent on that which you are chasing.

The Power of “No”

31:34 Emily: Yeah. That’s such a, I think foundational point about happiness, that I’m only just sort of starting to learn myself now in my thirties. And I wish I had known it because I am the type of person who kind of always has goals and is always striving for something. And my husband definitely kind of complains and kind of ribs me for like always wanting the next thing. And why can’t you be satisfied now? And, I am starting to realize like that. Whoo. That’s just how I am. I need to really like, look at that because I’m never going to get there. Right? If that’s what I’m basing that on. Is there anything else you wanted to add, Joy, before we wrap up the interview here?

32:09 Joy: I think this idea of there’s a lot of power in saying no and having financial boundaries, that’s something I do a lot of talking with people about. I think a lot of things get in the way of people saying, “No.” There’s a fear of missing out. There’s a discomfort with what you are anticipating someone else’s reaction is going to be. And the truth is, I believe people would be healthier, wealthier, and less exhausted overall if they built that muscle of saying “No” more often. And again, that’s not saying no to everything. But if you are finding yourself in a situation in your gut where you’re like, “I’m going to say yes, but I really don’t want to do this.” Ask yourself why. And then what is getting in the way of your taking care of yourself? If it’s your energy, if it’s your finances, and what would need to happen in order for you to have the courage to say, “No?” And what is the cost to your yes? Be that financial, physical, psychological.

How To Connect with Joy Lere

33:27 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. How can people find out more about the work that you do? Or I don’t know, if they want to be a client of yours. Like how do people connect with you?

33:37 Joy: My website is my name. J O Y L E R E. Joylere.com. I am active on LinkedIn, Joy Lere Psyd, and also spin my creative wheels on Instagram a little bit, @ joylerepsyd, and also love to hang out on Twitter and connect with people there. Also, my handle is joylerepsyd.

Best Advice for an Early-Career PhD

34:02 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much. That’s where we connected as well. So, final question here, Joy. What is your best financial advice for an early-career PhD? It could be something we’ve touched on in this interview, or it could be something else entirely.

34:14 Joy: My best advice is to do things different than most people around you. If you do that now, you will have things that no one else later on in their career will likely be able to accomplish and achieve.

34:36 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. Thank you so much for this interview and for joining me today.

34:39 Joy: Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Thanks for sharing your platform with me.

Outtro

34:44 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.