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How This Prof Developed Her Career, Family, and Finances (with Dr. Sarah Birken of AcaDames)

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Sarah Birken, a faculty member in the Wake Forest School of Medicine and co-host of the podcast AcaDames. Sarah tells the story of her financial life from her PhD training to her research faculty position at UNC to her new tenured position at Wake Forest, which paralleled the births of her children. She has recently experienced a financial awakening after years of being unaware of her cash flow. Sarah explains the motivation behind some of the financial decisions she’s made, such as working part-time and accepting her position at Wake Forest. Graduate students and PhDs who aspire to become faculty members and/or parents will find this episode fascinating!

Links Mentioned in This Episode

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Teaser

00:00 Sarah: I think I probably would have taken out a loan and, you know, if I could have understood that I would be making an amount of money in the future and really taken that into account and would be able to pay off a reasonable loan, I probably would’ve done that.

Introduction

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season eight, episode 12, and today my guest is Dr. Sarah Birken, a faculty member in the Wake Forest School of Medicine, and co-host of the podcast AcaDames. Sarah tells the story of her financial life, from her PhD training, to a research faculty position at UNC, to her new tenured position at Wake Forest, which paralleled the births of her children. She has recently experienced a financial awakening after years of being unaware of her cashflow. Sarah explains the motivation behind some of the financial decisions she’s made such as working part-time at UNC and accepting her position at Wake Forest. Graduate students and PhDs who aspire to become faculty members and or parents will find this episode fascinating. On the theme of post-PhD financial life, I thought I would give you another update on my family’s house-hunting process since it’s almost literally all I can think about at the moment. The housing market is wild right now, y’all.

01:29 Emily: My husband and I are trying to buy a single-family home in the San Diego area. We are first-time home buyers, and we are looking for a home we can live in for the next 20 years, at least, which is putting a lot of pressure on the process. We look at every home to see if it can meet not only our immediate needs, such as sufficient indoor and outdoor space for us to weather the rest of the pandemic, but also our anticipated needs when our children are in high school. The cycle that we’ve fallen into just about every week for the last six weeks is to monitor the listings that go up throughout the week and message our real estate agent about any houses we want to see that weekend. On Saturday, we drive from Orange County to San Diego County, leaving our kids with their grandparents.

02:14 Emily: We see between one and four houses and debate the merits of each house for the rest of the weekend. Finally, we submit an offer or not by early in the following week. Then the cycle starts over again, even before we hear back about the offer we submitted. As of the time of this recording, we have submitted three offers on homes, none of which have been accepted. All of the offers were between seven and 12% over the asking price. With the latter two offers, we waived the appraisal contingency, which means that we still intended to buy the home, even if it didn’t appraise for the sale price, and would bring cash to the closing table to make up the difference between the appraisal and sale price. I never knew that was a thing before getting into this process. Our offer was the first runner-up on the latter two homes, which I suppose means we’re offering in the right ballpark.

03:07 Emily: On the second house, we lost out to a buyer who was quote, “willing to beat any other offer,” end quote. And on the third house, we lost out to an all-cash buyer who waived all contingencies. So, on top of California real estate prices always being mindbogglingly high, inventory is very low at the moment. And buyer demand is bidding prices up well over asking. It seems like a very bad time to buy. Yet, here we are trying to, because we are personally and financially more than ready for this step. I’ve been trying to think of advice for future first-time home buyers in my audience, and I might end up doing a whole episode on this process once it’s complete. For now, my advice is to do absolutely the opposite of everything we’re doing.

Emily’s Home-Buying Advice

03:50 Emily: One, don’t buy in a sellers market. Two, don’t buy in a pandemic. Three, don’t buy from a distance. That is, unless it’s the right time to buy, like it is for us. My one actionable piece of advice right now for future buyers is to regularly go to open houses, starting well in advance of when you actually want to buy. In California during the pandemic open houses aren’t allowed. So we missed out on seeing lots of houses casually. We only see a very small number of houses seriously. The problem is that we didn’t really know everything that we were looking for when we started the process and we’ve become more specific in our vision as we’ve seen more homes. We’ve probably doubled our list of must-have and nice-to-have features since including minimum square footages for various areas of the home and lot. It’s the kind of stuff we never paid attention to when simply visiting other people’s homes. We’ve also learned about sort of California-specific things like unpermitted additions and Mello-Roos. So, there is a big learning curve for first-time home buyers. And that open house phase, I think would have been really helpful. Wish us luck to get a house soon so we are put out of our misery.

Book Giveaway Contest

05:06 Emily: Now, it’s time for the book giveaway contest. In March, 2021, I’m giving away one copy of I Will Teach You to Be Rich by Ramit Sethi, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community book club selection for May, 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during March will have a chance to win a copy of this book. I’m personally really looking forward to reading I Will Teach You to Be Rich for the first time. I have recommended this book and given it as a gift before, but never read it. I do know, however, from reading Ramit’s website and listening to interviews with him that in some ways he has a very different approach to personal finance than I do, such as putting a big emphasis on earning more. So, I think I’ll really benefit from reading a full book from his viewpoint. If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at emily@pfforphds.com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of March from all the entries. You can find full instructions at pfforphds.com/podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Sarah Birken of AcaDames.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

06:17 Emily: I have a really special guest joining me on the podcast today. It’s Dr. Sarah Birken, you know her from AcaDames where she’s a co-host. She also recently became a faculty member at the Wake Forest School of Medicine. So congrats to Sarah for that. And we are going to be talking today about finances through career transition points. And it’s a real pleasure for me to get to speak with someone, interview someone on the podcast who has been through a few transitions, you know, post-graduate school. So I think she’s going to have some really great lessons for us who are a little younger on in our career to to take from it. So, Sarah, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. And will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

07:00 Sarah: Yeah, sure. Thank you so much for having me. It’s a real pleasure. And I’ve been getting some friendly joking from friends and family that I’m on a personal finance, finance podcast. But yeah, so Sarah Birken, I am an Associate Professor in the Department of Implementation Science at the Wake Forest School of Medicine Division of Public Health Sciences. And as you mentioned, AcaDames co-host. I have been in the field of implementation science since the end of my PhD where I found out that that was in fact what I was doing. My post-doctoral fellowship was in cancer prevention and control. And as we’ll talk a little bit more about, I started out in a half-time research faculty position after my post-doc then moved to full-time and just in July 2020 transitioned to a tenure-track position at Wake Forest.

Sarah’s Finances and Money Mindset in Grad School

08:00 Emily: Yeah, it’s fantastic. And I know you covered that very well on your podcast. So, we’ll link to, in the show notes, a few of those episodes. So let’s start, you know, way back during graduate school and tell us what your finances were like at that time and whether you were aware of them working on them at all? Maybe not?

08:18 Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I have the benefit of having been partnered with somebody who was always very on top of finances. And I started graduate school after having made very, very little money as an administrator at a community health center. And when I applied for graduate school, I had like a vague sense that I wanted to make more money than I was making at the community health center. It would’ve been hard to make too much less than that, but I mostly, my objectives were not to be in a ton of debt and to be able to pay for graduate school, period. And when I applied for graduate schools and I did all over the country and got a full ride to UNC, that was so much of a blessing. I didn’t even, I mean, I knew that I was really lucky and I knew how wonderful it was that I wasn’t going to have to pay for graduate school, but I didn’t fully understand it at the time because I was pretty irresponsible with money.

09:31 Emily: Did anything regarding like your money mindset start to change during graduate school? And were you making more money, by the way, than you were from your prior job?

09:40 Sarah: Yeah. I was making not an appreciable amount more once I was in graduate school, right? Because I had, you know, my tuition and health insurance paid for, and I had a stipend through graduate school, but it was peanuts. It was really very little money. And so I just got accustomed to spending very little. I didn’t take out any loans because I didn’t have to, but I didn’t spend very much because I didn’t have very much to spend. So my, you know, modus operandi was just spend as little as possible, which I think in retrospect was not a great idea because instead of thinking of how much do I have to spend, it was just head in the sand. Don’t spend too much.

10:32 Emily: Yeah. So it sounds like you were, yeah, sort of in denial about, or like not wanting to deal with money very much.

10:39 Sarah: Oh yeah. Correct.

10:40 Emily: Thankfully the good part of that is you were erring on the side of not overspending, but underspending, but had you been in a little bit of a different headspace, you would have loosened the purse strings a little bit.

10:50 Sarah: Yep, yep. Exactly.

How Having a Child in Grad School Shifted Finances

10:52 Emily: What else happened in graduate school that affected your finances?

10:55 Sarah: Yeah, so I transitioned from the master’s program into the PhD program. So I completed the master’s and then started the PhD. And the stipend situation was really the same. I again had the tuition remission and the health insurance covered and the stipend, and I was kind of, you know, rocking and rolling doing the graduate school thing. And then I became pregnant with my first child in my second year of graduate school. And kind of, that was a big wake up call. Like I can, I can certainly continue to try to spend as little as possible, but I’m going to have a whole new creature to take care of. And some immediate things that became clear were that I needed to not live next to the drug dealer who I was living next door to anymore. I didn’t feel like I was in imminent danger, but certainly it was not a setting, it was a ton of graduate students and just not the sort of place where you want to raise a child if at all possible. So, I decided to find a single-family home and moved a little bit farther away from the university and found a job that was 30 hours a week, in addition to graduate school, that would pay a little bit more. So I went from making probably around $20,000 to making about $40,000 overnight. Which at the time felt very luxurious.

12:31 Emily: Wow, I don’t know that I’ve interviewed anyone else who’s made that kind of decision. So you took a 30-hour per week job. Does that mean you gave up the job you had, like if it was an assistantship, or how did that work combined with the, you know, the funding of graduate school?

12:46 Sarah: Yeah, that’s an important nuance. So, in the first two years of my PhD program, we were guaranteed some sort of position that would include a stipend. So that was a research assistantship or a teaching assistantship. And then a lot of students find a fellowship that will, you know, a pre-doctoral fellowship that will cover the cost of their schooling, their dissertation writing. And I had applied for maybe one or two, maybe it was even just one fellowship, didn’t get it, and was really worried. Like, what am I going to do next? And so I emailed faculty who were doing research in my area and they didn’t have any funding. And so I emailed the chair of the department and said, here’s my situation. Do you have any suggestions? And she said, actually there is a coordinator position for the reaccreditation of the school of public health. It is 30 hours a week. It is a real 30 hours a week. So it’s not like an assistantship where you might work, you know, 10 hours one week, you know, 25, the next. It was going to be a full 30-hour week position, but it made double what I did before. So that’s how I ended up in that position.

14:00 Emily: Okay. And was your funding still, that is for like the tuition and fees and so forth, was that still provided by your program?

14:08 Sarah: Yes, it was.

Housing Expenses and Saving on Childcare 

14:09 Emily: Okay. Yeah. That’s, that’s really interesting. Of course I know sometimes people who get into the ABD stage have different work arrangements, but I’m really glad to hear how that worked out in particular for you. Okay, so you’re making more money but you have the child, so what’s the next stage in the finances?

14:26 Sarah: Yeah, so we had bought this house and it was very inexpensive and I think it felt comfortable because where I live in North Carolina, really, the market is such that it was as affordable to buy a home as it was to rent a home. And that way, you know, I was building equity and I, you know, I had been for teaching spin classes on the side just to kind of make some extra money and fill in gaps for fees, for example, were not covered by the tuition remission. Which, you know, sometimes they were like $700, nothing to sneeze at. So my partner did start making a little bit more money, but in the meantime there was a gap where he wasn’t making very much money. So we, again, were just really trying to keep things as inexpensive as possible. So one of the decisions I made, it was primarily for kind of personal reasons, but also financial. I had minimal childcare, which was pretty stressful because I was doing, you know, my dissertation, I was working 30 hours a week, and I had an infant. But it was important to me to kind of keep things as limited as possible in terms of expenses and childcare is extremely expensive around here. Probably no more expensive than elsewhere, but it was like a second mortgage to have full-time childcare.

15:56 Emily: Yeah. I was going to ask you about that next because yeah, childcare is, I’ve definitely spoken with other graduate students who have, because the flexible schedule, like tried to make it work and not having at least full-time childcare, maybe just part-time or something. How do you feel about that decision now?

16:14 Sarah: You know, I have reflected on it because I do know of graduate students who have children who have gotten childcare. And in retrospect, I do wish I had given myself the grace of having a little bit more help than I did, because it was just a lot. I remember being extremely sleep deprived. I don’t regret anything because I really savored that time with my daughter, but it was stressful in a way that I don’t think I would want my child to do for themselves if they were in that situation. So I think I probably would have taken out a loan and, you know, if I could have understood that I would be making an amount of money in the future and really taken that into account and would be able to pay off a reasonable loan, I probably would have done that.

17:09 Emily: Yeah. I’ll link in the show notes to another episode where I interviewed a graduate student who is currently taking out student loans for daycare and also side hustling and doing all the things on top of it. Do you feel like you still finished in good form or maybe you took a little bit longer or how do you think that worked out?

17:26 Sarah: You know, I took three years to finish my dissertation. So, it was two years for the master’s program, two years for the predoctoral coursework, and then three years of writing my dissertation. And honestly, I think, you know, a lot of people finish their dissertation in two years in my program. For me, I think it was less about having a child and more about like data issues as, you know, these things go. But yeah, I felt like I was in a pretty good position when I graduated.

Decision to Do a Postdoc After Grad School

17:58 Emily: Okay. And so you did a postdoc after graduate school, is that right?

18:01 Sarah: Yes, I did a postdoc, but I did go on the job market in a very limited way, mostly because I wanted my dissertation chair to read my dissertation. And I knew that if I were on the job market, he would read my dissertation, and it worked. And so I very seriously considered a faculty position that I was offered. And the salary that was offered, it was a nine-month tenure-track faculty position. And I was considering also two different postdocs that I had been offered in North Carolina. The faculty position was outside of North Carolina. And you know, postdocs didn’t make, there was one postdoc that made not terribly far off from the faculty position. And then another post-doc that was just very little money. It was a T32 and it had no research support. And the postdoc that I ended up taking, it was an R25, which at the time you could do a post-doc, they funded them that way. And it was a much more generous salary than the T32. It had research funding. I hadn’t even been counseled about thinking about a startup package for a faculty position. And I don’t know if that was on the table. I’m not sure I remember, I don’t remember talking about it. And so again, in retrospect, it was really smart of me to take the generous post-doc that had research funding that had a little bit more generous salary than the other one. And I did that for three years. And for each of the two years subsequent to the first, I got a $5,000 raise.

19:43 Emily: Yeah, not bad. It’s very curious though, because you don’t hear about people turning down tenure-track positions too often. So what was it that tipped things in favor of doing the postdoc?

19:53 Sarah: Primarily, my partner was not super excited about moving, and I felt like I wanted to make sure that he was comfortable with our next life stage, our next, you know, career decision. And also I did get advice from somebody at the institution where I had gotten the tenure-track offer that I should do a post-doc. And part of that, I think for her, the reason she recommended that was because I would have time off of the tenure-track clock, the tenure clock to publish, to get some preliminary data for a career development award. And so taking those things together, it was a pretty clear decision.

20:40 Emily: So, your idea then at that point was to go on the job market again, after the conclusion of the postdoc and be a stronger position for winning funding and getting a position at that time.

20:51 Sarah: Exactly.

Sarah’s Finances and Money Mindset During the Postdoc

20:52 Emily: Gotcha. Okay. So let’s talk about the finances during the postdoc. How much were you making approximately at that time and you know, what was going on?

21:00 Sarah: So, I started at, I want to say $50,000, which is pretty good for a postdoc back in 2011. And then the next year I made 55 and then the final year I made 60, which was really pretty sweet.

21:16 Emily: Yeah. That raise schedule is, yeah, that’s pretty good.

21:19 Sarah: Yes. I finally felt like I was able to breathe a little bit. I mean, I wasn’t exactly like going on fancy vacations and buying a new car which, you know, I hadn’t done. I think, you know, my husband and I went on our very extravagant honeymoon. We went to New Zealand six months after we got married. But other than that, we really weren’t doing anything extravagant. I was driving the same car I had gotten right after college which was used anyway. And so, I think that I just was able to feel like I didn’t have to scrimp and save at every turn making $60,000 a year, which is pretty good.

22:02 Emily: Yeah. And regarding, you know, your child as well, how were you spending money in that respect?

22:09 Sarah: And at this point, I had two children. So in October of my first year of the postdoc, three years after my first child was born, I had a second child. And so, at this point, my daughter was in preschool about half-time. And then my son, I stayed home with exclusively for quite a while, maybe six months, again, kind of fitting my work around the edges, having a little bit of in-home daycare. Somebody would come into my home and watch him while my daughter was at preschool and I would get some work done. And I was doing a lot of work at night and on the weekends.

22:51 Emily: Yeah. So, you had your full-time job, but it was fit into the margins around the children’s schedule.

22:57 Sarah: Exactly. It’s the double-edged sword of that flexible job situation. And I don’t do bench science, so I really was on my own schedule for the most part.

Retrospective Reflections on the Affordability of Childcare

23:07 Emily: Yeah. And I’ll ask you the same question again. How do you feel about that arrangement now, looking back on it?

23:13 Sarah: I mean, I think I’d probably give you the same answer, that first of all, I probably could have afforded more childcare. Particularly once I was making, you know, above $50,000, I probably could have done it. It would have been a little bit tight, but I could have afforded it. Again, it was kind of my own personal comfort level with how much I wanted to be away from my children, but it also was, I just was so used to living as restrictively as possible. It didn’t even occur to me to get more help because I just operated as stringently as possible, but I didn’t have to. And if I had taken a little bit more time to really understand my finances, my cashflow, I’m very lucky. I didn’t have any debt from college. My parents paid for college. I didn’t have any debt from graduate school, aside from my house. I didn’t have any huge responsibilities, liabilities, so I probably could have afforded it. And if I had really examined my finances, I would have seen that.

24:22 Emily: Yeah. I’m asking these questions because I was in a similar period. So I have two children. They’re four and two right now. And in their very young years I was self-employed. And so I had this wonderful flexibility. And so I also didn’t employ as much childcare as I could have, and we sort of slowly dipped our toe into more and more childcare as they got a little bit older. And then the pandemic took the childcare away, and I really, really miss it. So that’s kind of my perspective on this. It’s like, yeah, I could have done a little bit more with that and been a little bit more focused on my work. And maybe for my business, you know, maybe gotten things ramped up a little bit faster than they had been. But, you know, like you said, also, like not regretting having the time with the children because that’s wonderful, but yeah, I’m just curious now for, I know, obviously there’s, you know, younger listeners maybe still in graduate school, maybe they haven’t had any children yet. Just trying to think through these decisions. I think it’s useful as you do on your podcast to talk through the issues that people face as they’re juggling career plus, you know, caregiving for family members and so forth.

25:24 Sarah: Yeah. And I think the bottom line is, you know, it is an intersection of personal values, finances, aspirations for what you want to do with your money, and just understanding all of those fully is going to position you best to make the right decision.

Commercial

25:47 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. Taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold your income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2020 tax return, which are available at pfforphds.com/tax. I hope you’ll check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the material or have a question for me, please join one of my tax workshops, which you can find links to from P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. It would be my pleasure to you save time and potentially money this tax season. So don’t hesitate to reach out. Now, back to our interview.

Retirement Savings, Directed Gift-Giving, and Coaching

26:52 Emily: So, let’s also talk a little bit about what financial practices did you have? Because you were saying you weren’t super aware of your cashflow during that time. You didn’t really examine it. So, were you budgeting? Were you saving? What was going on?

27:05 Sarah: Yeah, so by this time my partner was a personal financial planner, which was extremely convenient. He had always been really interested in personal finance. And so, you know, early on I had been, even when I worked at the community health center, I maxed out my retirement savings or contributions and didn’t have that option as a graduate student, no benefits there, but we certainly were saving as much as we could. Just a little bit here and there. But I was not a participant in that decision by my own, kind of, I guess it was more passivity than it was a conscious decision that I didn’t want to be involved in that. And so, I think for me, I just had so little perspective on any of our cashflow. But we had set up 529 plans for each of our children before their birth. And that was something that we started to ask anybody who wanted to give presents to just contribute to 529 plans. So, these were the kinds of things that we were starting to do that would make things a little bit easier and asking for things like, instead of stuff, like memberships to museums and things like that.

28:18 Emily: Yeah, I like that directed gift-giving, the nudges, that’s a good tip for any future parents. Okay. So, any more that you wanted to say about that postdoc position?

28:28 Sarah: I did work with a professional coach when I was trying to make a decision about kind of what I wanted to do towards the end of the postdoc in terms of my next steps. And one thing she encouraged me to think about was that there are all types of currency, and salary is just one of those. You know, benefits are just another component, but flexibility, anything really that you value as a human, you know, personal happiness, contentment in your relationship, proximity to family, be that far or near, depending on what you want. These are all important forms of currency. And that was kind of my orientation as I sought another position following my postdoc.

29:15 Emily: Yeah, that sounds like a really great exercise to go through when you’re at that point of deciding where you’re going to go next in your career. Is that something, an exercise you would recommend to others?

29:25 Sarah: Oh my gosh. Yes. Literally writing it down. I think just making all of those things as explicit as possible. Again, in the vein of really having clear picture of all of these things. Now, still at this point, I didn’t have a clear picture of my finances, but at least knew that that was a consideration that I had to account for.

Sarah’s Half-Time Research Track Faculty Position

29:50 Emily: Yeah. So, you went on the job market again, and where did you end up?

29:55Sarah: Well, so I didn’t really go on the job market. One of the major values that I pulled out of my experience with the coach was that I did want to stay home part-time with my children. I really liked being home part-time and I liked kind of being able to be with them as much as possible while continuing to do my research. And so, I basically worked with a mentor who was in a powerful position to design a half-time research track faculty position. Again, this was a huge compromise in terms of, you know, just financial benefits because it was half a salary, it was no benefits. So I forewent retirement savings aside from any personal contributions, which I did make, and, you know, was on my partner’s benefits which was stressful because he worked for a very small firm. Health insurance was very limited and expensive, but that was a conscious decision on my part to forego the benefits, you know, real and kind of personal, associated with the kind that I would get in a full-time position.

31:10 Emily: Yeah, I think, so I also work part-time now because I can design my own schedule. I find it to be great. And I think a lot of people wish that they could negotiate for that kind of, like still keep their career going, maybe a little slower speed than before, but still on some kind of track while having a lot more time for their own stuff, for their own families or whatever it is that they’re doing. How long were you in that part-time role?

Transition to Full-Time Contingent Faculty Position

31:37 Sarah: I was in the part-time role, I want to say, for maybe a year and a half or two years. And then I sought a position elsewhere because I was ready to work full-time, and it didn’t seem like that was going to be an option at UNC in my department. And so I did get an offer for a full-time position at another institution. And as you know, the chips fell, I was offered a full-time position at UNC in the same department where I was. It was still research track. So I was completely contingent, which means that I ate what I killed. If I didn’t get a grant to cover my salary, I wasn’t going to get a salary ever or a full salary. So that was stressful. But I was taking into account, frankly, a couple of things. One was the kind of intellectual freedom that I would have being in this, even though it was not a tenure-track faculty position, I had the intellectual freedom to do investigator-initiated research. Another consideration was, I was just scared, basically, to do something new or to think about what else my career might look like. I was kind of already on a path, and it was frightening to me to think about doing something different.

33:08 Emily: I see. So, were you at UNC that entire time, or was your postdoc at a different institution?

33:13 Sarah: No, my postdoc was at UNC and its Cancer Center.

Sarah’s Finances During Full-Time Faculty Position

33:17 Emily: I see. I think you’ve talked about on your podcast about the relative of merits of staying at an institution, right? The same institution where you did your graduate work. So yeah, I’d love it if you could give me an episode and I’ll link to it in the show notes for like further discussion about that. For our purposes, now you have this full-time role. You know, you’re going after your own grants, but you get to set your own salary. What do you want to say about the finances during that stage?

33:45 Sarah: I have to say that it was a kind of delay cognitive shift, because I doubled my salary overnight and I was still functioning as though I made half of my salary. And, you know, I really, because I had never confronted or taken the time or the initiative to closely examine my finances, I couldn’t adjust my thinking around finances or how I spent my money. Again, my M.O. was just make as much as possible and spend as little as possible. And I think that, on the one hand, that continued to work out relatively well, but on the other hand, it meant that I was really deferring to my partner for all things, all financial decisions. And I do not recommend that. I cannot overemphasize, and I remember sitting down with a financial planner who helped my partner and me before we got married.

34:50 Sarah: And she said, you need to focus on this. You need to pay attention. And I, honestly, where my brain was was to say like, I’ll figure it out when I need to. Like, right now, I’m overwhelmed with everything I have on my plate. And I don’t want to think about it. There was nothing anybody could have said to convince me to pay more attention to it until I was ready, which is kind of my personality anyway. But at this stage, it’s much harder to wrap my head around things because things are much more complicated. And I would like to think that if I had started earlier and focused when things were simpler, I would be able to keep up a little bit better now. Now that I really am taking the bull by the horns, I am able to get my head around it. I’m happy to say I was right. You know, I need to figure it out now and I am figuring it out, but it’s much more complicated than it would have been, say, when I was in graduate school.

35:50 Emily: I think that’s a really, really great message for the people listening who are starting their adulthood, right? And I actually have, not about finances generally, but I kind of say the same thing about taxes, actually. Like when you start understanding how your tax return works and how income tax operates when you have a simple income, a small income, you know, no assets, no house, no all this complexity that can come like later on, as your financial life gets more complicated, your taxes also get more complicated. And so I can definitely see how, yeah, if you were deferring this work to your partner for all those years now, suddenly you open your eyes and you have this wonderful paying job, but you’ve got the two kids and you have all the different, you know, aspects of your finances that are going on. I can definitely see how it could be certainly overwhelming, but I’m really glad to hear that you’re finally, you know, deciding to take charge of it. So definitely the advice is pay attention when it’s small and, you know, your knowledge will grow as your finances become more complicated. Yeah.

36:52 Sarah: Absolutely.

36:54 Emily: Is there anything else that you want to say about your finances during that period when you were still at UNC, but at the full-time role?

Negotiating Salary as Research Track Faculty

37:01 Sarah: The only kind of negotiating advantage one has as a research track faculty member is that the institution is not on the hook at all for the money that they’re paying you. Because it’s not them paying you. It is completely grant funding. And as a non-physician research scientist, there is no amount that, you know, if I were a physician and I made over the NIH cap, then sure, the institution would have been on the hook for the remainder, but that wasn’t the case for me. So, that was something where I didn’t feel like it was asking too much. So, I did kind of push that a little bit more than I would have otherwise when I was negotiating that retention package.

37:53 Emily: Because as you said earlier, you’re completely funding your own salary. Plus, the research expenses, the lab, whatever it is, well, you said you weren’t lab-based research, but whatever it is that you’re funding costwise.

38:01 Sarah: Right, exactly.

38:02 Emily: Yeah. So, what I’m taking that to mean is that you can set your own salary, but there’s some input from the institution and you don’t want to shoot too high because then you’re running through the grant money more quickly. Is that right?

38:13 Sarah: I mean, that is a consideration, although you kind of put in for a percent effort, but that will eat up the research budget a little bit. That wasn’t something I thought of too much, just because I think the kind of incremental chunk of the overall budget that my salary would take up, you know, a $5,000 increase in my salary, isn’t going to blow my budget.

Sarah’s New Tenure-Track Position at Wake Forest

38:40 Emily: Gotcha. Let’s talk about your new position now. What prompted you to go for it and be willing to leave UNC?

38:49 Sarah: Oh my gosh, it was such a process, but I had a career development award. That is how I funded 75% of my salary for the time, the three years that I was in a full-time position. The other 25% was made up of teaching and other kind of co-investigator positions. And as I near the end of my career development award, you know, the writing was on the wall. I was going to have to, you go from 75% of your salary being covered to, you know, whatever you can pull in with grants. And after your career development award is over, as a, you know, an academic researcher. You’re never going to have a grant that’s going to cover that percent of your salary again. It’s just, you know, you might, if it’s a really generous project, you might get 25%, but usually it’s more on the order of like 10, 15, 20% of your effort.

39:47 Sarah: And that means that you’re on a lot of projects. And funding being what it is, it did not seem like something that was viable for me in a research track position, being able to pull in enough money to support the lifestyle that I had come, you know, again, I was still not spending a ton of money. But, you know, we moved from a smaller house to a bigger house. We had bought a new car by that time. These are things that do add up and, frankly, I wasn’t excited about making half a salary anymore. And, you know, one of the things that happened when I was on faculty was I just wore, in graduate school and for the postdoc, I really just more whatever clothes I had and I just didn’t really care. And something happened and I was like, I love clothes. And I still only buy used clothes to the extent possible. I really am like a big consignment person, but still, these are kind of the orientations that shifted a little bit. So.

40:58 Emily: I want to actually interject there because I think it’s, again, I’m so pleased to speak with someone who’s a little bit further on in their career, because I think this is a great perspective to have that the lifestyle sacrifices that you are willing to do in your twenties might not be ones that you’re willing to do later on. Now, of course, within personal finance, there’s this FIRE movement and there’s lean FIRE, which is, you know, keeping your lifestyle capped at this really low level. And you expect to live on that in perpetuity, maybe for a subset of the population that is acceptable. But I think most Americans on average kind of want to spend more as they, you know, advance through their lives. They grow accustomed to certain comforts and little luxuries that they want to keep around. So, I think that’s a perfectly reasonable perspective. It’s something I’ve observed in myself as well of, yeah, growing to like a little bit more spending once it’s available and not wanting to backtrack from that.

41:53 Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, going through a tenure-track position was, in some respects, kind of just a psychological shift. I knew that I could probably find a position that would have some startup, which would cover a part of my salary and kind of the percent coverage that I would have would decrease over time. This is kind of the way things go in my field. But that psychological comfort of knowing that I didn’t have to pull in a hundred percent of my salary based on grants was enough to pull me away. And it was time for me to find a position that felt more secure. So, really it was just psychological. I am in a soft money position now, but I like to call it, you know, semi-firm because it is, you know, my startup package was such that I started out with 90% of my salary funded and then it will decrease over five years to 65% of my salary I need to pull in from outside. And my thinking was, if, you know, I’m five years into a tenure-track faculty position and I can’t pull in 65% of my salary, then I probably shouldn’t be doing the kind of research that I’m doing. There’s a little bit of wiggle room because there are lean years, but I feel like I should be able to do that. So, it felt very fair.

43:27 Emily: Interesting. Yeah, this is, it’s kind of a lesson in like betting on yourself, I guess, that you’ve gone through. That is to say, you’re giving yourself a little bit more time for that transition by getting your salary covered again, but you’ve just sought out the structure within academia that makes you feel comfortable at any given time. I really love this lesson about like negotiating for what you want. Like when you did the half-time position, then, well, you phrased it as if it fell into your lap, but somehow you managed to get that to be a full-time position. So, presumably there was some kind of negotiation going on there, or at least going after a position. Yeah, I really like how you’ve been kind of flexible and gone with what you want and what you feel comfortable with, through these you know, through this arc of your career. Is there anything else that you want to say about negotiating that startup package?

Negotiating a Startup Package

44:13 Sarah: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s important to acknowledge a couple of things. So, one is kind of a small thing, but it was really important. When I was a postdoc, I attended a seminar given by an expert in negotiating. And one of the things I remember from that was, you know, well, two things I remember from that, one was start with a win. And the other thing was, you know, you can be honest about what you’re hoping for in terms of the outcome. And so when I was faced with the opportunity to negotiate, because I had been offered a position, I took those things to heart. So, I knew that I wanted the position. And so I didn’t, you know, make any effort to suggest otherwise. I said, I really want this to work out. I’m looking forward to finding a way that we can make that happen so that we’re both happy. And I think that was true and it was nice and it made for a really comfortable negotiation.

45:15 Emily: Yeah. You’re sort of establishing from the beginning, like we’re going to be working together. So let’s make this a pleasant process and both get something that we want here.

45:24 Sarah: Exactly. And, you know, I think I had very different expectations about what the salary was going to be, not very different, but sufficiently different, that that was one of the things that I wanted to negotiate. And we came to a place that we were both happy with. And the startup package made up for kind of any, you know, difference between what I kind of thought the salary was going to be versus what it was. And I certainly came out of the negotiation feeling really good about where things landed. And I think my chair did too.

45:58 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s the best kind of outcome is that you, it’s actually something that I like to say about discussing finances generally is that you, you learn a lot about another person by sort of exposing your values through discussing how you handle your money and what your aspirations are and so forth. And this the same kind of thing could happen through negotiation. My husband actually was in, it wasn’t a negotiation, but it was a performance review recently. And he was asked by his supervisor, well, what motivates you? Is it more salary? Is it more something else? Like what’s going to really, you know, get you to do great work for us? I thought that was a great question, you know?

46:34 Sarah: Great question.

What Motivated You to Face Up to Your Finances?

46:34 Emily: Yeah. Is there anything else that you want to add about, you know, finances through this arc? Do you want to talk about what motivated you to finally face up to your finances and do that whole process?

46:48 Sarah: You know, I turned 40 this year, last year. And I think with taking on a new position, really, it was, I mean, I should emphasize what a big deal it was for me to leave UNC. I like control. I like being able to anticipate what things are going to be tomorrow. And for me to take the leap to leave an institution that I had been at for five years as a faculty member for three years as a postdoc and for seven years as a graduate student was huge. Huge. Especially since I had had several opportunities prior to that to leave and I hadn’t. So, I think, you know, a combination of turning 40 and having succeeded in shoehorning myself out of my comfort zone and, you know, emphasis on the succeeded. Because I really did succeed.

47:47 Sarah: I got exactly what I wanted. That empowered me to be like, Oh, I can do this. Like I’ve got skills, I can handle this. So, and I, you know, I now work with, and there’s a website called Personal Capital that I use and I’m working with a financial planner through them and just getting a hold of the basics. I think I’ve just come to recognize that I have skills, and I’m smart. And I just need to approach this in a really pretty straightforward way of like, I make money, I spend money. I should be able to know what those things are and have a full picture. And I owe it to myself to have that full picture. And hopefully all of the kind of, you know, considerations I have when I look back at my trajectory, I can think that moving forward, I’m going to have a much clearer picture and I will be able to make decisions that are fully informed.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

48:52 Emily: I’m so glad that you’ve come to this point. And isn’t it fortuitous that I asked you to come on the podcast right at the same time as you’re going through this personal journey as well? You have a new lease on your financial life now. It’s wonderful to hear. So, Sarah, as we wrap up, the question that I ask all my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be something that you want to emphasize that we’ve already touched on, or it could be something completely new?

49:17 Sarah: Well, I mean, I guess I’ll just double down on the idea of, I think if I could go back and tell myself it would just be, for me, I like things as simple as possible. I would just break out a spreadsheet and put in my income and start tracking my spending. Like that’s pretty easy. It really is. And it’s really easy now with all the apps. And I think that just doing that is a first step. And then you start to get curious, like, okay, well, what do I do with the gap between what I make and what I spend? Okay, I got to do something about that. Or what do I do if I have a little extra? What can I do with that? And it kind of can be a natural progression.

50:02 Emily: I think that’s exactly right. I’ve heard that from other guests as well. And it’s something I went through myself is just that very first baby step is just to start tracking. Just to write down what’s going on, and then you don’t have to push yourself to start budgeting or do anything complicated right away. Just start observing what’s going on. And then as you said, you’ll become curious, you’ll naturally start to make changes. Yeah, I think that’s wonderful advice. Well, thank you, Sarah so much for this interview. It’s so fascinating to learn about, you know, the arc of your career and how your finances have changed through all of that as well.

50:30 Sarah: This has been lovely. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Listener Q&A: Taxable Fellowship and Scholarship Income

50:38 Emily: Now, onto the listener question and answer segment. Today’s question was asked during a live tax webinar I gave recently for a university client. So, it is anonymous. Here is the question. Quote, “How does the IRS verify the amount of taxable fellowship and scholarship income that we report on our form 1040?” End quote. I love answering questions during live events, and I especially love questions like this one that are completely unique. I’d never been asked this one before. It sort of goes to this fundamental thing about income tax in the U.S. which is that the IRS does not necessarily know in advance what your tax liability is. You are really telling the IRS what it is through generating your tax return. So there’s a lot of individual responsibility there, and there’s also kind of a lot of, you know, trust on the IRS’s that you are doing a good job at reporting, you know, your income and your expenses and so forth accurately. That is, unless they decide to audit you. Anyway, that’s pretty unlikely for a grad student.

51:39 Emily: So, to give you some context for this question in the workshop, I talk a lot about how to track down all of your income sources as a graduate student and also all of your qualified education expenses. Now, if your university issued you a form 1098T, you would think that that 1098T would be a complete record of those two things, but it is not. I emphasize in the workshop that it’s very common for graduate students to have additional qualified education expenses not listed in box one of the 1098T that they can use to reduce their taxable income, and therefore, ultimately, their tax liability. So, the question is basically asking, well, if my taxable scholarship and fellowship income is not simply box five of the 1098T minus box one of the 1098T, how does the IRS know that I actually have those expenses?

52:32 Emily: Or how does it know that I did my math right on the subtraction? And my answer, at least for U.S. citizens and residents, is that the IRS doesn’t really know what went into calculating that taxable scholarship and fellowship income, at least when you first submit your tax return. All you’re reporting is that net number, the taxable fellowship and scholarship income. You’re not putting on your tax return anywhere your total scholarship and fellowship income and your total qualified education expenses, only the net of those two. So, in that tax return, you’re not showing the math, right? You’re only showing the answer. However, my firm suggestion is that you keep your notes on this process. Keep the receipts. Keep the records of all the qualified education expenses and so forth. Because while unlikely, it is possible that the IRS may come back to you and say, Hey, we don’t understand where this number came from of your taxable scholarship or fellowship income.

53:31 Emily: What is it? What went into this calculation? And then you’ll be able to show how you did the math there. It’s not something you have to submit in your initial tax return, but it is very handy to keep around for several years in case the IRS does question your return. By the way, that’s not necessarily a full formal audit. It could just be something that you respond to in a brief letter or over the phone. I’ve actually coached several graduate students through something similar to this process where the IRS didn’t understand how they were reporting their grad student income. And they were able to, you know, write a coherent letter, justifying it, and the issue was put to bed. So I loved answering that question in the live webinar. I’m glad to have been able to replicate that for you here. By the way, there are two ways that you can get more of this kind of tax info in your life.

54:17 Emily: One is that you can join my tax workshop, which is called How to Complete your Grad Student Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!). You can join that as an individual, or actually you can even make a bulk purchase. Like if you want to arrange that through your department or grad student association or something. You can find out more details about the tax workshop at pfforphds.com/taxworkshop. I am also available for live events. Believe it or not in previous tax seasons, I have been booked late in March to give an event actually that was in-person that year in early April. So, if you want to bring this kind of material to graduate students and even postdocs broadly within your university, please just email me, emily@pfforphds.com, to kind of get the ball rolling on that. If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to pfforphds.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions, so please submit yours.

Outtro

55:21 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episode show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book, giveaway contest and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email listserv, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Two-Time International Graduate Student Gives Excellent Advice to Her Prospective Peers

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In this episode, Emily interviews Josephine Shikongo-Asino, a second-year PhD student at Oklahoma State University from Namibia. This is Josephine’s second stint as an international graduate student in the US, having completed a Fulbright fellowship about ten years ago. She has great advice for prospective and rising international graduate students in the US about the financial transition into graduate school. Josephine and Emily discuss funding models, the importance of saving and debt reduction prior to matriculating, researching cost of living, visa restrictions on working, credit and debt, budgeting, remittances, and more. Josephine’s excellent advice nearly always applies to prospective and rising domestic graduate students as well; this episode is for everyone!

Links Mentioned in this Episode

international grad student

Teaser

00:00 Josephine: If anyone is considering to come, I would say before you hand in that resignation letter, really do an inventory analysis in terms of your financial needs and maybe also pay off any loans, if you can. If you have any loans, you can pay them off. If you have a car, sell it, you weren’t needed at least for a year. So yeah, that’s really doing a financial inventory to make sure that you are in the right place.

Introduction

00:34 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts.

00:42 Emily: This is Season 8, Episode 5, and my guest today is Josephine Shikongo-Asino, a second-year PhD student at Oklahoma State University from Namibia. This is Josephine’s second stint as an international graduate student in the US, having completed a Fulbright fellowship about ten years ago. She has great advice for prospective and rising international graduate students in the US about the financial transition into graduate school. We discuss funding models, the importance of saving and debt reduction prior to matriculating, researching cost of living, visa restrictions on working, credit and debt, budgeting, remittances, and more. Josephine’s excellent advice nearly always applies to prospective and rising domestic graduate students as well; this episode is for everyone!

01:32 Emily: It’s always a pleasure for me to create content for international graduate students, postdocs, and PhDs with Real Jobs, and I’m really grateful to Josephine and everyone who has donated their time to help me and my audience learn more about how to navigate finances while in the US on a visa.

01:48 Emily: Some other episodes in which I’ve covered this topic are S4E17 Can and Should an International Student, Scholar, or Worker Invest in the US?, S2E6 Making Ends Meet on a Graduate Student Stipend in Los Angeles, and S6E3 The Financial Hurdles of Moving to the US as a Postdoc.

02:08 Emily: I’m actually working on some tax content specifically for international graduate students this spring, so if you aren’t already on my mailing list, please join to hear more! You can do so at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/.

Giveaway

02:21 Emily: Now it’s time for the book giveaway contest! In February 2021, I’m giving away one copy of The Simple Path to Wealth by J L Collins, which is the Personal Finance for PhDs Community Book Club selection for April 2021. Everyone who enters the contest during February will have a chance to win a copy of this book.

02:42 Emily: If you would like to enter the giveaway contest, please rate AND REVIEW this podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot of your review, and email it to me at emily@PFforPhDs.com. I’ll choose a winner at the end of February from all the entries. You can find full instructions at PFforPhDs.com/podcast/.

03:03 Emily: The podcast received a review this week titled “Crucial knowledge for a first year PhD student”. The review reads: “I started listening to this podcast a couple months ago, and the tricks I have learned have increased my confidence in personal finance has tremendously. As an international student. Not all advice work for me, but I especially enjoyed episode two in season eight, when Laura was sharing her experience as an international student. In general, this podcast have taught me to manage my new monthly stipend the best way. I now know that it’s okay not to prioritize paying down my student loans, I’m not crazy to be checking my bank account on a daily basis, in fact, it’s encouraged, and I’m now putting together a 50/30/20 budget. My goal is to one day be managing my personal finances in a way that I could be a guest on Dr. Robert’s podcast”.

03:51 Emily: Thank you for this a wonderful review and I can’t wait to have you on the podcast without further ado. Here’s my interview with Josephine Shikongo-Asino.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further

04:02 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today. Josephine Shikongo-Asino. She is a second year graduate student at Oklahoma State University. And she’s here to talk with us about international students and their transition to the US, particularly the financial aspects of their transition. This is a subject I’m highly interested in. I hope you are as well. I’m interested in for all types of graduate students, both domestic in the US and international, but I’m really, really happy to have the focus on international students on the podcast today, because it’s a group that is highly in need of more information about this. So Josephine, I’m really pleased that you suggested this topic and that you’re joining me on the podcast today. Will you please tell the audience a little bit about yourself?

04:42 Josephine: Thank you, Emily. Thank you for having me. I’m Joseph Shikongo-Asino. I am originally from Namibia, which is in Southern Africa. We are just above South Africa. I’m sure many people know where that is. My background — I’m a certified accountant. I have a master’s in strategy as well, which I did here in the US. And then I’ve spent about 10 years working in the financial sector, including financial services, banking, and investments. But currently I’m a second year PhD student at Oklahoma State University with my research interests, really more on higher-ed finance and policy.

05:20 Emily: Wow. What a great fit for this podcast. I’m so glad you’re joining us. And between your master’s and starting your PhD, did you stay in the US that whole time, or did you live back in Namibia, or elsewhere?

05:31 Josephine: No. I had to go back home because with my master’s, I was sponsored by the Fulbright program. They require you to work two years at home once you finish your program so that you can give back, which is the purpose of the Fulbright program. I had to serve two years in my country and then come back to proceed with my PhD.

05:49 Emily: Gotcha. So you really have the perspective of having transitioned into the US twice?

05:54 Josephine: Yes.

Similarities and Differences Between Finances in Home Country and the US

05:54 Emily: Perfect. So tell us a little bit about, maybe before that first time that you came to the US, a little bit more about the finances in your home country, and how they are similar or dissimilar to the US.

06:07 Josephine: Namibia is classified as an upper middle income country by the World Bank. So it is actually, one of the better performing economies on the continent. And even when I came here, I realized that there’s not much of a difference in terms of salaries back home and being in the US, other than currency exchange, obviously. But, because I had to quit my job, I did not have a backup, I did not have any cushion, that could keep me in case something happens. In case I have an emergency, I did not have, um, any backup. And also because I’m coming from a low income family, I did not have any other backing, other than the sponsorship, which I go through the Fulbright program. I really had to do to survive on my own. I took a decision to leave my job because I thought that I would come to a better situation, which will give me better opportunities afterwards. Looking back, maybe I would have made a different decision after the two years were over. I don’t know if I would have necessarily quit my job had I known what I was signing up.

Advice for Prospective International Grad Students

07:24 Emily: I see. Okay. So I think we’re going to get a little bit more of those stories as the interview proceeds. First of all, you just mentioned that you quit your job, no savings, no backup before you came here. What’s your advice for another international student planning to come to the US? We’re recording this in December, 2020. I think it will be out sometime in the early spring, so people are receiving decisions about their admission to grad programs, but they still have a bit of time before they actually need to matriculate. What is your advice for that time period?

07:59 Josephine: I think the first question really is can you afford to quit your job. For me, that’s the first question you should ask yourself. Do you have expenses such as maybe dependents at home that depend on you on you solely, financially? Do you have a home loan? Do you have a personal loan, that needs continued financing from you?

08:20 Emily: Okay, so you mentioned paying off debt earlier, but what about generating savings? You know, I imagine a degree of savings is helpful for anyone who is moving, but more so when that move is international. So can you speak to that a little bit?

08:34 Josephine: Yes. I mean, most people plan their international studies way ahead before they happen, because you even go through the process of first researching the institution’s, researching where to go. So when you start thinking about going to study internationally, I think you should start at nest. You should start putting money that you can have in case, even if you don’t get a full tuition waiver, even if you don’t get a full scholarship, to have something that you can either supplement yourself, or you can just supplement your expenses, or you can keep paying off the debt back home with that. It’s very important to definitely start the saving nest the moment you start looking into going to study international, and as you really want to have a cushion to land on

09:22 Emily: One other thing to point out here is in this process of researching where are you going to be moving, I find this the idea very daunting of figuring out what is the cost of living in a country that I’ve never lived in, in a city that I’ve never lived in. The US is obviously very diverse in terms of cost of living, and some places I’m thinking about bringing savings, like to a place where if you’re going to rent somewhere it requires, first month, last month deposit all upfront, that can be thousands of dollars easily, as well as just the actual transit, the transitioning costs. Plus sometimes there are fees to be paid to universities upfront. It depends on how your university structures things, but sometimes there could be over a thousand dollars, multi-hundreds of dollars in fees to pay near the start of the semester, that are not like prorated over time. So all of these things have to go into the research of where you’re going to be living.

10:23 Josephine: Yes, they definitely have to and I always advise people that do not look at the big cities. It’s very tempting to want to go to the big cities, because that’s what you’ve seen on TV all your life. And that’s where maybe some of the most universities that you’ve heard of are, but smaller cities actually have just as good universities, but their cost of living is lower. When you’re in a smaller city, your cost of living could really be low, which could then make it easier for you, but as you do the research, look at programs that offer graduate assistantships, if you can, if they offer full graduate assistantships. And like you said, some of them include fees and others don’t, so if you can get a program that pays for fees, pays for health insurance, and a stipend at least close to the cost of living in the town, because those are available online; you can look up the cost of living. That could make really your life more manageable, if you can get an assistantship that can give you full tuition, including fees, health insurance, and a stipend. Otherwise, fellowships or scholarships, because all of these are really, they’re not just readily available, they are competitive. It’s important to look out. Some of them are not even advertised, so sometimes you might have to just write to people at the university and say, “Hey, I’m looking at coming into your program, can you talk to me about the funding structures of your program?” Because some things are not advertise, and if you don’t ask, you wouldn’t know. So it’s really, it’s an investment into just looking into deciding where to go to ensure that you are not under financial strain while you are in your studies.

12:15 Emily: I totally agree. This is the same process, again, that domestic students need to go through is figuring out what the funding structure is. I would say most primarily in your field, because this is oftentimes very field dependent, like whether funding typically comes from fellowships or training grants, or whether funding typically comes from research assistantships versus teaching assistantships. Versus other fields, maybe the funding is very spotty. Sometimes it’s here. Sometimes it’s not. And all that you need to be going in with your eyes wide open as to what that situation is. I usually suggest a bit of networking and informational interviewing, not necessarily with the faculty, but rather with anyone you have a connection with who’s already at a university in particular, if you have one in mind or even just your field more generally. Like alumni associations, for example, is a great way to reach out to people. You don’t know who they are, but they have some kind of connection with you and maybe they’ll be willing to have a conversation with you because you can really get the best insights, I think from current students. Faculty, sometimes they might paint a little bit too rosy of a picture about the finances in a graduate program, because well, one, they may not be aware of some of the difficulties that students are going through. And two, they may want to recruit you and so they might be a little more optimistic than things really are. So I would say talk to with current students. Of course you do eventually need to connect with faculty members as you’re in the application process, but maybe when you’re just getting more information, just trying to narrow down the field, students are really great resource.

13:46 Josephine: Oh yeah. Students will give you the true picture without needing to paint it any rosey, because they have gone through it and some of them might not have had the same guidance. They will tell you the truth, so the reaching out to current students is definitely a must, I would say.

14:03 Emily: Yeah. And the extra wrinkle there for international graduate students, you can correct me if I’m wrong about this, but the extra wrinkle there is, well, really please do talk with other international students, and even particularly if there are some from your own country that would be especially helpful, because a lot of times programs don’t pay very well, like you just mentioned pay at least equivalent to the cost of living in a certain city. The resource that I really like to point to is the living wage database at MIT, livingwage.mit.edu. That’s an awesome resource for telling you in every county in the US or every metro area, what is the baseline amount of money that this research points to as needing to just get by just necessary expenses.

14:48 Emily: Okay, so speak with other international students, because I know what happens a lot on the domestic side is that if universities are not paying well enough, domestic students will side hustle. They will have outside jobs. And that is, as we discussed earlier, at least for jobs originating in the US, not an option for international students. Also debt is almost completely not an option because you have to have a US guarantor and that’s a whole big hurdle to get over. And so pretty much student loans are not accessible to international students unless you already have connections in the country. The fallbacks that domestic students have — the safety pressure release valves on their finances — are not necessarily available, usually not available to international students. That’s something really important to consider that if a domestic student is telling you, “Oh yeah, it’s okay, but I work 5-10 hours a week tutoring or whatever outside of my primary appointment,” please know that that option is not available to you and you’re going to have to make the finances work another way.

15:48 Josephine: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say that you would also need to just manage the little that you have when you get it. If you manage to get an assistantship, if you have a scholarship, if you somehow have an assistantship, even if it’s outside of your department, in the university, really try to stick to a budget. Draw up a monthly budget, stick to it, your income is fixed, so your expenses should be. Those really include things such as like sharing an apartment, to reduce the rent costs, just keeping your expenses low, using campus resources, such as buses to get around, instead of buying a car. If the university has a good bus system, you can use that to get around, you don’t need to get a car. Medical expenses, try to minimize those. Use the university campus health facilities, because medical expenses can be really high. I’ve had experiences in both times. When I was here the first time, there was a time I had to get an ambulance, and that cost me a lot of money. And this time I also had to go to an ER and that, again, cost me a lot of money that I had to continue to pay off. So try to minimize those. Save every month. If you have a stipend that you receive, even if it’s just $20, just put away something, you never know when you might need it, especially when you’re in a country where you might not have a network at all, not anyone that you can just call up. If you don’t have obligations at home, you will manage somehow. Try to stick to your budget and save every month, if you can.

17:42 Emily: Totally, totally agree with all of that. Especially about not committing yourself to higher fixed living expenses, right away. Yes, definitely find a place that’s on a bus line. I do remember, so I went to graduate school at Duke, so Durham, North Carolina. At the time, it was a very car dependent town, so moving there as a domestic student, I was like, “Oh, I have to buy a car.” I was living actually car-free before that point, but I was like, “Oh, Durham, I have to buy a car there.” But once I moved, I noticed that a lot of the international students who were my peers did not have a car yet because, there’s a process to go through. They had to get a license. They had to be able to get credit, to qualify for a loan. It took six months or 12 months for them to buy cars. So I was realizing, “Oh, well, they’re managing to get around okay. Yeah, they have to bum an occasional ride, but mostly they’re using the buses” and it’s actually pretty manageable. Try to set your life up that way, at least in the first year. You can reevaluate in subsequent years if that’s working for you or not, but really try to get those baseline expenses low until you have kind of your bearings in your new city.

Commercial

18:54 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude taxes are weirdly, unexpectedly difficult for funded grad students and fellowship recipients at any level of PhD training. Your university might send you strange tax forms or no tax forms at all. They might not withhold your income tax from your paychecks, even though you owe it. It’s a mess. I’ve created a ton of free resources to assist you with understanding and preparing your 2020 tax return, which are available pfforphds.com/tax. I hope you’ll check them out to ease much of the stress of tax season. If you want to go deeper with the, or have a question for me. Please join one of my tax workshops, which you can find links to from pfforphds.com/tax. It would be my pleasure to help you save time and potentially money this tax season. So don’t hesitate to reach out. Now back to our interview.

US Funding Models and How They Impact International Grad Students

20:00 Emily: Was there anything else that you wanted to add about funding models in the US. We mentioned a few of them — assistantships, fellowships and scholarships. I did notice I’ll add here, in my own graduate program, a lot of international students did come with funding from their own home countries. So they were sponsored by their own federal government, so that is an option you can investigate in whatever your home country is, but I noticed that as another possibility.

20:27 Josephine: Yes. There are some countries that would have scholarships within their own funding structures, so if those are available in your country, that’s great. Some companies within the country could also sponsor you, or maybe even your employer, they might be able to sponsor something so that if you have those options, that is great. But the one thing that I also wanted to mention on the funding structure is that as you review an offer for an assistantship, for example, they usually do not include summer. That’s another aspect that you need to look at — what will you be doing in the summer? Will you be able to survive during the summer? Will you have an option to work? Would you be able to get an exception to work, or would you be able to have your assistantship extended to cover the summer? Because most assistantships do not include summer and many international students find themselves over the summer, really stranded and not having any funds. And it can be tragic.

21:32 Emily: Yeah. I would say that goes into the research that you need to be doing into how your field, and then how specifically the programs that you’re looking into are funded. Because as you said, many places do not offer summer funding, or at least the funding might be different. Like maybe you have an assistantship during the year, but then summer it’s on you to go and apply for fellowships and when win of them., so that could be the expectation. Other places do have 12 month, year round funding. It really just depends and so it’s something you have to go in your eyes wide open and aware of. Again, I’ll repeat, the same advice for domestic students read that offer letter really, really carefully, because I’ve read many that just say what your funding is for nine months, then just stop talking about what happens next. You really need to ask those follow-up questions — what’s typical, what’s on the table? If they just say, “Oh, well, yeah, you’re definitely going to be funded, we just don’t know exactly how, we don’t know exactly what the mechanism is, but don’t worry about it, you’re definitely gonna be funded.” That’s a great answer to hear, but if you hear, “Oh, well, right, summer’s on your own, you need to figure that out,” then, okay, you need to know that going in.

Money Management Tips for International Grad Students

22:34 Emily: Now in terms of strategies for money management, you already mentioned budgeting. You mentioned saving even if a small amount. Are there any other strategies that you particularly want to point out for international graduate students?

22:48 Josephine: It’s really more looking at what you can bring in from home and this simple things such as watching…I don’t know, some countries have exchange rates that really fluctuate a lot, so if you have some money at home, for example, and something your currency just suddenly became favorable in comparison to the dollar, you should set up the money transfer from home in that way to say, “Oh, look at my currency — if I transfer right now, I’ll get double the money then I would get some other time.” I mean, obviously it’s something you need to actively do, and maybe it needs a special skill, but it can benefit you if you transfer money at times when your currency is not too weak against the dollar. For me, that’s something you can, you can as well look at. Again, leaving no obligations at home, I think that that can really leave you free and be able to focus on your studies, because if you have a debt back home that keeps needing money from you, it will weigh on you and you will need to accommodate it in your budget here in the US, and that can just kind of set you back up.

24:13 Josephine: Try to find really people that you can share expenses with, like whatever you do, if you’re able to share expenses with people — I loved to travel, when I was here for my masters, because I had the time, unlike now, and I would find friends and we would go to visit a state that we have never seen before. And when we are in a big group, you are able to share that cost without necessarily breaking a bank and you you’re able to kind of also have a good time, so that you’re not just focused on your studies. You have a good time as well on a budget, but when you have friends that you can share with it keeps your expenses down. Phones, again are another thing where if you have a friend who you can share, who can maybe help you put on their family plan, which are cheaper, instead of subscribing for your own phone directly.

25:21 Josephine: Don’t get yourself into things such as getting cable and do what you can stream online. Books for school — there are many used books out there that are cheaper. There are rental options. You can also stick to just maybe borrowing books from the library and really checking which book do you really need to buy in the end, instead of just buying all the books that are required. Books can be really expensive, so I had worked with the library for the most part. At the beginning of the semester, what books do I need? Check the library. Are they available? And then if I see that it’s a book that is really important for my future, then I will actually I’ll actually go and buy it, but otherwise I just borrow, use it and take it back. That way I keep my expenses low.

26:16 Emily: I’ll add a note on the textbooks there. I ended up borrowing textbooks from other students who had taken the course the previous year or whatever. Sometimes there might be an edition change, but sometimes not. And so I found that to be really useful because yeah, some people do invest in books and they want them available to them long-term but yeah, they can part with them for a semester, especially when they know where to find you. So that’s another good resource is just students who took that class last year.

26:41 Josephine: Yeah.

26:43 Emily: I do want to bring up remittances. You mentioned earlier supporting maybe dependence back in your home country, but that could extend not just to your children, but maybe your parents or other family members. So you have any suggestions for people who are expected to help continue to support family members or the like?

27:04 Josephine: Yes. I think there’s many tools online that actually charge really, really low fees to transfer money back home and are easy and fast. If you have a bank account, which for the most part, you would probably have, there’s ways that you can send money through your bank to your country, but that tends to be more on the expensive side, in terms of the international wire fees. There are online tools, financial apps that you can use to send money back home, as long as the person back home is able to receive it, and you can track it, that’s okay. But for me, I found those services cheaper compared to doing it through my bank, because the bank is obviously to involve the process that you have to go through. The money might not be available as soon as you needed, if the people need emergency money. It’s better to use the international wire tools that are available online. I think, I don’t know if I should mention any of them, but there’s WorldRemit, there’s MoneyGram, and the likes. There’s this many of them. One really just has to look and see which one offers the lower cost for sending money to your country, because the cost also varies depending on where you’re sending the money. So check which one has a low cost of sending money to your country and a fast one as well, because often people at home are not going to wait a week if they need the funds. So find the ones that it’s cheaper and faster to send money back home instead of doing it through your bank.

28:55 Emily: Yes. Thank you so much for making those suggestions. That’s something that I hadn’t thought about, like the mechanics. And I know a lot of people hear about building credit in the US when they first move here. Can you make a couple comments about your experience with that, or the best way to do that?

29:11 Josephine: Credit card companies here just give you unsolicited credit offers. And for me, I would say resist them if you can. It’s important to build a credit if obviously you plan to stay here, and maybe eventually get a job. But credit needs discipline. And as a student who might not necessarily have the means to always service your credit, my main advice is to stay away from the credit, but if you find yourself not able to, and you would like to take on some credit, either for credit building, or just really to make up some gaps that you need, then make sure that you do pay it off. Do not take away anything that you are not able to settle within that the month. Or if you really need, if it’s an emergency, then you have to set up a fixed repayment plan to make sure that you pay back because you also don’t want to leave the country with debt. I would advise against getting debt. If you’re going to get a job, just wait until you have a job. But if you want to access the credit that’s available and you have some offers then make sure that you do pay them off.

30:44 Emily: Yeah, I think my perspective on that question is it is helpful to have a credit score, a good credit score, in terms of actually just finding rentals. And this also depends on the housing market that you’re in, so it might be different, you know, cities versus smaller cities. Go ahead and build the credit, but like you said, don’t actually use it by carrying debt or carrying balances or paying interest. Do it in a way that you don’t have to pay any fees, essentially, but you can still build your credit score for the point that you need it. And like you said, maybe you won’t really need a credit score until you need to get a job or take out, like I mentioned car loans earlier. That could be a possibility if you feel you can support the debt. It’s a funny thing because credit scores seem like they should only be useful when you’re taking out debt, but in fact, they creep into other areas of life as well. It’s like a helpful thing, although not maybe like strictly necessary depending on your housing market.

31:43 Josephine: Yeah. I mean, yes, you do get kind of penalized if you don’t have any credit history, like you have never taken out credit, they penalize you on that. But yeah, build as little as you can for what you need, but don’t get into it because you probably come across friends who have used debt to pay off their studies, especially the domestic students, but it’s different. I would say as an international student do not take on any credit that you are not able to service immediately.

31:17 Emily: I totally agree. And we talked about the dangers of having debt earlier, when you’re obligating a portion of your already very small stipend, already completely limited stipend. It’s a tool you have to be really, really careful with because it’s very easy to get in trouble.

32:33 Josephine: Oh yeah, and they just send you, sometimes the moment they have the address, they just send you offers — “you qualify for a hundred thousand”, “you qualify for a credit line and you also get this airline miles” and you’ll still have to pay for them, so just stay away from it.

The Financial Culture Shock for International Grad Students

32:50 Emily: Absolutely. Is there anything that has struck you about the financial culture in the US that you think international students need to know about before arriving?

33:01 Josephine: I think for me, what was shocking is really the 20 hours a week that that is really strict. I think when we come, sometimes we think, ah, I’ll be able to make my way around this. I’ll be able to find a job. I’ll be able to make extra money. You really can’t. So you are only allowed to work 20 hours a week and it’s important to keep that in mind, That that 20 hours a week is the only income you will have. Life is expensive. Just buying bread itself, I was shocked at how much bread cost around here. The culture of eating out for the most part and really not, not cooking at home. So you would have to resist always being out, because obviously you won’t be able to probably fund it, and find ways to really cook at home. For me, the credit card offers were the most shocking, because I’m like, “Do they know how much I earn? Why are they offering me this credit?” Because in my country getting credit is very difficult. You only get credit if you earn a certain salary and you can prove that you have a good credit history of paying off any loan that you have had before. So getting offers from companies to just say, you qualify for credit, without me doing anything, was what was kind of surprising.

34:40 Josephine: Big cities, again, very, very expensive, every little thing costs you money, so it’s better to stay maybe in like a rural town, which is very close to a big city where you can take and one hour train to a big city, for example, that takes off a lot. If you can stay in a smaller town, which has a train that goes into a big city for one hour, that kind of gives you the best of both worlds. But yeah, the financial culture in the US is just, it’s a spending culture. It’s obviously about revolving money in the economy and supporting the businesses. So it is just, we have to keep spending there’s always holidays that have different things that you need to spend on. You really need to be able to manage your spending within such a culture.

35:39 Emily: I agree. I think from what I’ve read about, let’s say permanent immigrants to the US, they come with certain, I’m generalizing, obviously the world is very diverse, but oftentimes the US is more consumeristic and then the countries that they come from. And so, maybe that first-generation keeps some of the mindsets from their home country, original culture, but it gets diluted, and within two, three generations, the descendants of those people are just totally in the thick of the consumerism of the US and completely Americanized in that way. I would imagine it can be quite shocking, and a lot of pressure to spend once you’re here.

36:24 Josephine: I think the other thing is also to pay your taxes. Obviously in many countries, people still pay taxes, especially if you’re in a salary, your employer has an obligation to deduct that, but the deadlines on when to file and all that could be like flexible. But here it’s really, I feel it’s important to keep to the deadlines and ensure that you file the taxes and don’t do anything to feel maybe, “Oh, okay. If I say this, then I can claim more.: Don’t do it. It will ruin your life and it will ruin your chances to ever be in the US, so do pay what is due to the tax man and do not claim anything you are not entitled to.

37:18 Emily: Yeah. So I think what I’m hearing you say between the rules about visas and then the tax stuff is, there’s not flexibility here. The rules are the rules, and you need to follow them. You need to toe the line, because especially as you said, if you eventually want to get a green card and stay in the US, there could be things that come up in your history, your record, that torpedo that application, if you’ve made any missteps early on. So really, really keep to the rules. I have corresponded with international graduate students who have skirted the rules and worked extra or whatever, and they got away with it, I guess, for the time being, but I always say don’t chance it.

38:01 Josephine: No, because then you walk around looking over your shoulder, wondering if someone will come after you at some point. So I think just live, you’re in another country, just live according to their rules.

Financial Advice for Early Career PhDs

38:12 Emily: Okay. Josephine, as we wrap up, what is the best financial advice that you have for another early career? PhD could be an emphasis of something we’ve already talked about today, or it could be something completely different.

38:24 Josephine: I think there’s a few things that I just need to emphasize, which is seek funding. There are options out there. Don’t up on your dream thinking, there’s no way I can study in the US, I don’t have the money. There are options. There are funds out there that sometimes go unclaimed. Talk to as many people as possible that can help you to give you the information on where to find funding, because there are ways for you to be able to fund your PhD dream. Again, avoid debt. Live modestly. The rewards will obviously come later, hopefully.

39:04 Josephine: And then just make sure that you do it for the right reason. As you make your decision to pursue a PhD, it’s not like a master’s program where you do it, you finish maybe within two years or one year, and you can go and get a job. It takes time. So at some point it will get tough. Whether it’s financially or just the coursework, it will get tough. But if you have a clear motivation, if you have a “why” you’re doing it, you will remain on track. Don’t come to do a PhD as a way to just be in the US because when it gets tough, you will find it hard to keep motivating yourself. When the stipend is much less than the salary you used to get back home before you resigned, there will come a day when you are like, why am I even doing this? Why did I have to give up my job to come and do this thing, which is now going to take me four years to finish, but if you have a clear motivation on why you’re doing it, I think it will keep you going., when you can keep going back to your why.

40:15 Emily: Beautiful, beautiful advice. Thank you so much for adding that. For the international listeners, I will add a few links in the show notes of previous interviews I’ve done, some articles I’ve written specifically for international students. There’s one especially, we didn’t touch on investing in this interview, but if you’re interested in investing as international student, I have an interview on how you can make that happen, so that could be of interest as well. Josephine, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast and giving me this wonderful interview.

40:45 Josephine: Thank you. Thank you, Emily.

Listener Q&A: Credit Cards

Question

40:47 Emily: Now it’s time for the listener question and answer segment! This week’s question is one I ran across on Twitter from Jake Thrasher, who gave me permission to answer it in this segment. Here is Jake’s Tweet: “Does anyone have good credit card recommendations for grad students? I’ve never had a credit card before, and I have no clue what I’m doing.”

Answer

41:08 Emily: Jake got a lot of great answers to this question on Twitter, and I’ll link to it from the show notes.

41:13 Emily: I’m going to answer this question not with respect to what might be the best credit card for a grad student right now, but rather how to find a first credit card no matter when you may want one.

41:23 Emily: First, you should determine what characteristics you’re looking for in a first credit card. It is recommended that you keep your first credit card open indefinitely because having a higher average age of credit boosts your credit score. So even if you open and close other cards later, ideally you would keep this one open for many years. Given that, I recommend that you sign up for a card with no annual fee and also with a creditor who has a reputation for good customer service. Some other features that are nice-to-haves but not must-haves, in my opinion, are ongoing rewards, a sign-up bonus, and waived foreign transaction fees.

42:03 Emily: If you have any inkling in your mind that you might carry a balance on this card in the future, look for a card with the lowest interest rate that you can find. I did this when I signed up for my first credit card because I didn’t 100% trust myself to pay it off completely every statement period. I ended up creating a track record of paying my cards off completely and on time, so now when I open credit cards, I don’t even look at the interest rate. But if you’re just starting out with credit cards, that’s reasonable to take into account.

42:34 Emily: Finally, to avoid applying for cards that you won’t get approved for, you should take into consideration your current credit score. If you’re new to credit you might not have a credit score or it might be not very high yet. You can search for cards that don’t have a credit score requirement in that case. For anyone new to the US, it’s typical to apply for a secured credit card as your first one.

42:57 Emily: Once you have your lists of must-haves and nice-to-haves, it’s time to start searching for current offers. You can definitely Google “best first credit card” or some variation on that and see what you get. I also like to use the sites bankrate.com and Nerdwallet.com. Those sites typically set up categories of cards for you to peruse, such as student cards, no annual fee cards, cards for bad credit, etc. However, please note that probably any credit card review you run across online has an affiliate or commission structure in place. That means that if you click through a review to open one of the cards, the site hosting the review will get paid, and that can bias their reviews. Look across a few sources to see if some cards commonly pop up within the criteria you’re searching for.

43:46 Emily: For example, when I’m doing this exercise in January 2021, I’m seeing that Discover offers a student card that probably fits the bill. Many of the people who responded to Jake’s prompt said they used Discover cards when they were starting out. I read Discover’s policy, and apparently after you are no longer a student they reclassify the card to a non-student card with the same benefits structure, so you keep the longevity of that account going. While I’ve never had a Discover card myself, they are one of the major players in the credit card space and their online reviews seem to be solid, which leads me to believe it will be easy to keep the card open for a long time.

44:22 Emily: Another great suggestion from the Twitter responses is to open your first card at a local credit union because they are likely to be less predatory than a bank. So that’s a great approach as well, provided that you will still be able to use the card with ease if and when you move away from the area that the credit union serves.

44:40 Emily: One final suggestion for Jake since he said he has no clue what he’s doing: Read my article titled Perfect Use of a Credit Card, which is linked from the show notes, and follow its advice to the letter. It’s super, super easy to slip up with a credit card and quickly get in over your head with the high interest rate. I’m very strict about how I use credit cards, which I explain in the article, and I suggest you set up rigid rules for yourself as well, such as treating your credit card exactly like a debit card.

45:11 Emily: Thank you, Jake, for posing this question on Twitter and permitting me to answer it here!

45:16 Emily: If you would like to submit a question to be answered in a future episode, please go to PFforPhDs.com/podcast and follow the instructions you find there. I love answering questions so please submit yours!

Outtro

45:29 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast and instructions for entering the book giveaway contest, and submitting a question for the Q&A segment. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. If you leave a review, be sure to send it to me. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with an email list serve, or as a link from your website. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt, repayment and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe through that list. You’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. Music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC podcast, editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

Catching Up with Prior Guests: 2020 Edition

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Emily published the first episode of this podcast in July 2018. This is the one hundred and seventh episode, and over the last two and a half years, the podcast has featured 94 unique voices in addition to Emily’s. The last episode in 2020 catches up with the guests from Seasons 1 through 3. The guests were invited to submit short audio updates on how their lives and careers have evolved since the time of their interview. The question with which all the interviews are concluded now, “What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD?” was not one that was asked in the earliest seasons. The guests who didn’t have the opportunity to answer the question in their initial interviews answer it in this update, so you’ll hear lots of financial advice throughout the episode as you have grown to expect from this podcast.

Link Mentioned in this Episode

financial interviews

Introduction

00:10 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season seven, episode 16, and today I’m featuring many guest voices. I published the first episode of this podcast in July, 2018. This is the 107th episode and over the last two and a half years, the podcast has featured 94 unique voices, in addition to my own. For a last episode in 2020, I thought it would be fun to catch up with the guests from seasons one through three. I invited them to submit short audio clips to update us on how their lives and careers have evolved since the time of our interview. The question with which I conclude all of my interviews now “what is your best financial advice for another early career PhDs?” was not one I asked in the earliest seasons. I asked the guests who didn’t have the opportunity to answer the question in their initial interviews to do so in this update, so you’ll hear lots of wonderful financial advice throughout the episode, as you’ve grown to expect from this podcast. The audio clips in this episode are ordered by when the original episode was published. If you’d like to circle back and listen to any of the previous interviews you can do so in your podcatcher app, or at my website, pfforphds.com/podcast. To keep up with future episodes, please hit subscribe on that podcatcher and/or join my mailing list at pfforphds.com/subscribe. Since I featured my own financial story from graduate school in season one episode one, you’ll hear an update from me first followed by the rest of the guests. Happy listening and here’s to the end of 2020!

Dr. Emily Roberts

01:53 Emily: Hi, this is Emily Roberts from Personal Finance for PhDs. I was on season one, episodes one and two, and season three, episode one and it’s been about two and a half years since I recorded the first of those episodes. Not a whole lot has changed career-wise in that time. My husband still works for the same startup that brought us to Seattle, and I’ve expanded my business into a few new areas. I now offer one-on-one financial coaching, run a group coaching program called The Wealthy PhD a few times per year, and facilitate the Personal Finance for PhDs community. And of course, continue to host this podcast and give seminars and webinars for universities and conferences. The big personal changes are that we had a second child, so our daughters are now ages four and two, and we moved from Seattle to Southern California in August, 2020. Moving in a pandemic with toddlers was much more challenging and less enjoyable than the move I described in my earlier episode, but it went very smoothly, all things considered my husband and I are now technically location independent, at least for the time being. Our current big financial goal is to buy our first home in Southern California in 2021. For the last several years, we’ve balanced investing for retirement with saving a down payment, so hopefully we’ve done enough on both fronts. I’m really looking forward to stability in the housing area of my life. Thanks for listening to my update. If you want to get in touch, you can visit my website pfforphds.com or find me on Twitter at @pfforphds.

Dr. Caitlin Faas

03:27 Caitlin: Hi there listeners. My name is Dr. Caitlin Faas and I was on episode seven of season one, October of 2018. A lot has changed for me since then. I left my position as a faculty member. I was tenure track at the time earned tenure, became a department chair and then left the position at the end of 2020 to work for myself full time as a certified life coach, I made that decision officially in February of 2020, right before COVID hit. And I knew it was time to take the leap. And then the universe sent me all the tests, my husband being laid off and COVID and so many other things, but I still trusted and knew it was time to leave. And I’m proud to say this year, I’ve earned over a hundred thousand dollars and we paid off all of our debt and all my concerns and worries that I managed along the way are what made it possible for me to be ending the year of 2020 successfully.

04:33 Caitlin: We also, in that time adopted our teenage daughter out of foster care and something I wish I could tell myself, looking back in 2018, as I had an idea that I might want to leave academia and continue to grow my business was I just wish I could tell myself not to stress as much about the debt we had. I took it a little too seriously. It all worked out as it was supposed to, and I didn’t have to hustle and grind my way there. I definitely followed a budget and Dave Ramsey’s plan, but the biggest thing was money mindset and law of attraction, setting those goals for myself and continuing to trust the flow and surrender to the process. That’s what made the difference. So best of luck as you hear my update and go about your own path with Emily.

Nicholas Giangreco

07:13 Nicholas: Hi, this is Nicholas Giangreco from season one, episode 10. I am a systems biology PhD student at Columbia Medical Center. I’ve kept a budget throughout my studies and living in New York City, logging in my expenses and savings. First switching to a rainy day fund goal, then a more moving fund/cushion goal, and now recently, been able to transition to more heavily into a retirement saving, and that’s because having the budget has helped me be more conscious of my spending and saving decisions over time. That would be my advice for new graduate students — keep a budget. I use Google sheets. Whatever makes you conscious of your decisions and helps you stick with a goal that you have in mind is really important throughout your graduate career. As well as taking advantage of opportunities, such as tutoring, teaching, and internship. They can help you get to your goals and become more financially stable. Hopefully that helps out people and enjoy the rest of your listening.

Bailey Poland

08:51 Bailey: Hi, my name is Bailey Poland, and you can find me at Patreon.com/BaileyPoland. I was originally on season one, episode 12. I’m now a fourth year PhD candidate in rhetoric and writing studies. And I’m about a chapter and a half away from being done writing my dissertation. I’m currently on the job market, both for academic and industry jobs, especially given the way the COVID-19 pandemic has affected the academic job market. In the original episode, Emily and I talked a lot about side hustling, so I wanted to give a little bit of an update about that. While I do still have my Patreon, my other side gigs have changed a lot and this year I’m on an assistantship that allows me to focus exclusively on my dissertation, so that’s my main priority right now. But in the past couple of years, I’ve worked as a virtual social media assistant for a women-focused finance organization called city girl savings. I took on some extra work in my department as a digital development and promotional outreach assistant, and I’ve done various freelance jobs in writing and editing, especially professional writing and editing, as I’ve had the opportunity to work on those. So despite my stipend only going up a little bit across the time that I’ve been in the program, I’ve managed to hit a six figure net worth over the past couple of years by keeping my expenses low, doing that extra paid work and investing.

10:14 Bailey: And on that note, my best financial advice for another early career PhD is to find a way to save and ideally invest as early as you possibly can, even if it’s just to get into the habit of having some money set aside or having an automatic transfer of some kind of set up. Even if you’re still paying off other debt, even if it’s only a little bit of money here and there, that really, really adds up, especially over the long-term. Time is a huge factor in creating financial security for yourself and the earlier that you can build those foundational habits, the better off you’ll be.

Dr. Lauri (Lutes) Reinhold

10:51 Lauri: Hi, my name is Lauri Reinhold, formerly Lutes, and I was on season two episode one. My main updates are to share that I completed my PhD and amidst the pandemic, which was quite an achievement for me. And I now have a postdoc position. In my episode, I spoke a lot about the ways I took advantage of resources in my area to overcome some of the challenges of being a single mother and a graduate student. One of the goals later on in graduate school that I looked into was home ownership. And I wanted to share this with you because had I looked into it sooner, I probably would have benefited a little bit more. I am settling into a higher cost of living area, especially in comparison to where I grew up in the Midwest. And looking into home buying is quite intimidating due to the average cost of a home. I found in my state in Oregon, there’s a program called an individual development account or an IDA, and this is a three to one matching program where I can contribute $2,000 and walk away with $8,000 that I can use for a variety of different expenses — educational buying a car retirement. However, I was most interested in using these funds for a down payment on a home. Unfortunately since I looked into this later in my career and my admittance into this program was delayed due to the pandemic and this perfect storm of things occurred, my current income puts me just over the threshold to qualify for this program, so I’m no longer able to participate. However, I am happy to report that I have learned a lot about the home buying process along the way, and that I am still actively pursuing this long-term goal. My advice to you is if you have these financial goals, I encourage you to see what’s available in your state and take advantage of these programs sooner than later, so that you can start saving. And perhaps you might be more likely to meet some income thresholds and take advantage of some of these opportunities to get ahead.

Dr. Gary McDowell

12:54 Gary: Hi, I’m Gary McDowell and I work as a consultant on early career researchers and affecting change for and with them. I’m now based at Lightoller LLC, but you may have heard from me on season two, episode three, when I was the executive director of the nonprofit Future of Research. I’m doing almost exactly the same kind of work and have the same motivations to work on behalf of the interests of early career researchers. Now I’m just in a different business model. I’m also now more permanently settled in Chicago, Illinois. I spoke about our effort on postdoc salaries with you before, and I’m still working on that in my spare time. I’m currently embarking on a new set of data requests from universities, and I hope to have five years of data to look at and share with you all in the not too distant future.

13:38 Gary: But I think the best advice that I can give to you at the moment is that you should be very proactive in bringing up the topic of salaries when talking with current or potential supervisors in an academic setting. I mentioned this for a couple of reasons. Firstly, my sense is that compared to when I started working on salaries nearly five years ago, it has become much more acceptable to talk about money, hopefully in no small part because of the efforts of people like myself, constantly putting this up as an issue publicly with academics. This is particularly true, I think, in the present situation with the COVID-19 pandemic and the increased financial burdens that that’s placing on early career researchers. I think it’s important that you try, if you can, to advocate for yourself.

14:23 Gary: Secondly, I always advise that you bring this up with a potential supervisor because how they react can tell you a lot too. Even if you don’t get a raise in the salary offer from the discussion, if they react with, “why would I pay you more?” I think you should probably question generally whether this is the person you actually want to work for versus someone who might respond that they can’t give you a raise, but then talks about how that could be explored through fellowship applications or talking to the department chair, or just generally seems willing to about it. If you don’t feel able to advocate for yourself, maybe you have a precarious visa situation, for example, find ways of advocating with others through a union or association. There’s strength in numbers and decades of recommendations from blue ribbon panels that you should be paid more. So make sure you’re advocating for your worth because you are worth it. Feel free to contact me. You can do so through my website, lightoller.org or emailing info@lightoller.org. Or you can always contact me on Twitter at @GaryMcDowellPhD, or find me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening.

Maya Gosztyla

15:33 Maya: Hi guys, this is Maya Gosztyla from season two, episode four of the podcast, which came out in February of 2019. And that episode was about how during my postbac fellowship at the NIH, I was able to save about 30% of my income despite having a fairly low salary of only around $30,000 a year. We also talked about how I use science communication as a side hustle to earn a bit more money on top of that. It’s been almost two years now, about a year and a half since that was published and a lot has changed since then. I got married to my then fiance and we had a very simple wedding. We just eloped at the cherry blossom festival in DC and spent some money on a two week honeymoon abroad, which was lovely. I also started grad school at the University of California, San Diego, which is also lovely. I love it here.

16:25 Maya: A lot of the things that I talked about in that episode have continued. I still live very simply. I don’t eat out very much and I try to budget very carefully. But of course, 2020 had a lot of things that made it much harder to live the way I had last year. In grad school, I have a pretty similar stipend as I did as a fellow and I also have a fairly similar cost of living, but the difference is now of course it’s me and my husband, not just me living by myself since we were long distance during my fellowship. As a result of COVID, like so many other people, my husband does not have a job right now so we’re basically both living on my grad school stipend. As a result of that, I’m no longer able to save 30% of my income. Unfortunately, we pretty much just break even with the stipend alone. However, I have continued doing my little side comm side hustle, and all of that is kind of on top of my stipend just goes into savings. So that just gives us a little extra buffer to continue saving a little bit toward our goals as much as we can. And having that emergency savings that I did build up during that fellowship was super helpful. It gives us a lot more peace of mind in case we have any major expenses, like when we just had to get some car repairs done, and having to buy health insurance from my husband when he aged out of his parents’ insurance. We were able to do that without much problems. So that’s been really helpful to have that little cushion.

17:45 Maya: Our plans for the future are basically when my husband does get a job, and hopefully this pandemic ends, people can go back to work, we’re going to continue to live on my stipen as much as possible and then try to use anything that he makes to just work on paying down student loans, and eventually saving toward retirement. My advice for students would be definitely save up some emergency savings before grad school, if you can. And if you’re living with a partner, try to live on one income, if you can. I’d be happy to talk to people who are in a similar financial situation and gives some advice, so you can feel free to reach out to me on Twitter. My username is @alzscience on Twitter. Good luck to everybody.

Dr. Jill Hoffman

18:25 Jill: Hi, this is Jill Hoffman from Toddler on the Tenure Track. I was on season three, episode four, where I talked about public service loan forgiveness, as well as the decision that my husband and I made to have him become a stay at home dad. Career-wise, I’m still on my tenure track position and I’m on track to submit my tenure package in October of 2021. Also in September of 2020, my husband started a part-time position that he does from home. So he’s still doing the bulk of the childcare, but we’re switching off with childcare responsibilities when our work hours overlap. Financially, given the pause on student loan interest that’s happened as a result of the pandemic we’ve put our more aggressive student loan payments on hold for now. I still have a significant amount left on my loans and I’m still on the public service loan forgiveness program. And with my husband’s loans we’re waiting to see what happens when the new administration takes office before we start back up with our focus on paying those off.

19:24 Jill: Personally, we’ve had some major ups and downs since I was in the podcast and are currently trying to work out the logistics of a move back East to be closer to family. We’re currently in the Pacific Northwest. Sadly, my dad passed away in late 2019, and we had some other family emergencies that really made us reconsider the distance from family at this point in our lives. And financially, the money associated with traveling back and forth isn’t sustainable for us at our current income level. on a happy note, we’re expecting our second child in may of 2021, so that’s also playing a role in our interest to at least be an easy driving distance to family. You can find more about what I’ve been up to toddleronthetenuretrack.com.

Crista Wathen

20:08 Crista: Hi everyone. This is Crista Wathen from Richful Thinker. Last time you heard from me was season three, episode seven, where I spoke about the benefits of completing your education abroad and how I am using my PhD salary and Swedish kroner to pay down my US student loan debt. The biggest update since the interview that I have for you is I have finally reached positive net worth after being negative for so many years. I was also asked what was the best financial advice that I can give you, but that has changed in the meantime, and it is increase your savings rate so you can let that. You do have to decide the vehicle in which you want to place it in, but you have to let that grow. Now you can follow my journey as an American abroad. You can go to my blog, richfulthinker.com or my Instagram account, which is @richfulthinkerblog. Thank you guys so much for listening and I hope to speak to you soon.

Dr. Gov Worker

21:12 Gov Worker: Hi, this is Dr. Gov Worker and I appeared on season three, episodes eight and nine. Emily and I talked about the FIRE movement and the FIRE movement stands for financial independence and early retirement. Since that time I’m still on a path towards early retirement and financial independence. And in fact, with the large market gains that have been going on since the time we recorded, I’m further ahead than I thought it would be towards achieving financial independence. Once I reach financial independence, I’m still planning on working right now, but it’s nice to know that if something were to happen, I’d never need to work again, but I’m enjoying my job right now too much to leave.

21:58 Gov Worker: And I know I gave advice on the podcast, but if I had more advice, it would be really understand your employee handbook. Or if you work for a university, the university rules, or the federal government rules. Whatever your workplace is, understand all the rules about your employment, because sometimes you might find a benefit buried somewhere deep in an employee handbook that you don’t know about. And I think a lot of what I am really passionate about right now is educating people on how to get the most benefits out of their jobs that they’re they’re already at. I definitely recommend doing that. And if you want to get in touch with me, I’m on Twitter. You can tweet at me it’s @govworkerfi, and I’d love to hear from you. I love hearing from my readers. I also have a blog governmentworkerfi.com, but if you just tweet me, you can get to my blog.

Dr. Toyin Alli

22:59 Toyin: Hi, this is Toyin Alli from The Academic Society. I was on season three, episode 12 of the podcast where I shared how grad students can find the perfect side hustle while working on their degree. Since recording my episode, my job hasn’t changed much besides doing it remotely. I’m still a lecturer at the University of Georgia, and I’m up for promotion this year. My business, The Academic Society has grown so much since the episode. My YouTube channel has grown to almost 6,000 subscribers and my time management programs and courses are helping so many grad students. I’ve also revamped my signature grad school prep course for new grad students. It’s the resource for new grad students. Inside of my program I help recently accepted in first year grad students uncover grad school secrets by learning about the culture of grad school. I help them transform their mindset from an undergraduate mindset to a grad school mindset. I help them up level their productivity so that they can actually get their work done, and master time management so they can have time for themselves without worrying about how grad school works. I help grad students become more prepared and understand what grad school is all about so they don’t feel anxious about starting. I’m so happy that my business is in a place that allows me to not depend solely on my income as a university lecture. This summer, I was able to buy my first home, a condo in a pandemic. I’m paying off my student loans from undergrad, and I’m excited about building wealth from my side hustle.

24:41 Toyin: Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to my update and catching up with me. You can find me on my website, theacademicsociety.com on YouTube, my channel is called The Academic Society with Toyin Alli. You can also follow me on Instagram @theacademicsociety_, and you can join my Facebook group for grad students, it’s called The Academic Society for Grad Students. Across all platforms, I talk about time management and productivity, but my overall mission is to show grad students and academics that you can live a fulfilled life and be successful in academia at the same time.

Follow-up from Emily

25:23 Emily: Hey, it’s Emily again, adding onto the last update. After Toyin and I got back in touch for this update episode, she invited me to guest lecture for Grad School Prep, the course you just heard about. The recording of the workshop I gave, “Set yourself up for financial success in graduate school” now lives inside Grad School Prep. If you are a prospective or first year grad student, I highly recommend joining Toyin’s course. In hindsight, I recognize how desperately I needed the skills and information in Grad School Prep when I started my PhD. My contribution lets you in on the financial secrets of grad school, explains the financial mindset you should adopt, and walks you through the financial steps you should take during your application year and first year of grad school. Toyin gave a free masterclass on what to expect from your first semester in grad school and how grad school prep can help you with the transition, including a description of my workshop. You can sign up for the free masterclass theacademicsociety.com/Emily.

26:28 Emily: Toyin’s interview was the last one in season three so we are finished with this update episode. I hope to devote an episode at the end of each calendar year to updates from previous guests. I hope you have a restful and joyful holiday season, despite the year we’ve had. We’ll be back with a new episode on Monday, January 4th, 2021.

Outtro

26:51 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How a Freelancing Career Can Take You from Academia to Affluence

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In this episode, Emily interviews Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. Courtney became a successful freelance writer after leaving her PhD program in anthropology and moving to one of her field sites. She now teaches other academics how to launch freelancing careers through her course, Endless Freelance Income. In this interview, Courtney gives us her #1 piece of advice for new freelancers, which all academics need to take to heart! She also outlines the simple steps it takes to get your freelance career off the ground. Courtney’s location-independent business has enabled her to earn a very nice income on very part-time work, which will be attractive to academics looking to freelance for a side or main income.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

academic freelancer

Teaser

00:00 Courtney: I actually do not work full time. I work maybe 15 or 20 hours a week. But I actually still earn a full-time income because I get paid well.

Introduction

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 17, and today my guest is Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. Courtney became a successful freelance writer after leaving her PhD program in anthropology and moving to one of her field sites, but it wasn’t all smooth sailing. She now teaches other academics how to launch freelance careers through her course, Endless Freelance Income. In this interview, Courtney gives us her best advice for new freelancers, which all academics need to take to heart. She also outlines the simple steps it takes to get your freelance career off the ground. Courtney’s location-independent business has enabled her to earn a very nice income on a very part-time schedule, which I know is attractive to academics looking to freelance for a side income or main income. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:17 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. And I just want to tell you, in one second, how Courtney and I first met online, which is that I saw a post that she wrote a few months back on Jobs on Toast, and I saw her business name, Academia to Affluence, and I was like, this is going to be a good fit. I need to talk with Courtney. So, Courtney, will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself and why your business name is what it is and what you’re up to?

01:47 Courtney: Okay. Yes. So sure. My name is Courtney Danyel. I am an anthropologist by training, but I actually wear quite a few different hats. I’m a freelance business writer also. I’ve been doing that for the past seven years. And as an anthropologist, I’ve worked in Africa in the Central African Republic and Ethiopia. And I actually currently live in one of my field sites, which is Ethiopia. I’ve lived here since I started freelancing seven years ago. And another thing that I started doing late last year was I started mentoring other academics and other people with an academic background to help them transition into freelancing and actually have created an online course for that purpose.

Top Advice for an Academic to Start Freelancing

02:30 Emily: Yeah. So the course name is Endless Freelance Income. I’m actually affiliate for Courtney’s course. I had an opportunity to check it out, you know, before this interview, I think it’s fabulous. And if you want to find out more about that on my end, you can go to pfforphds.com/freelance and find out more about Courtney’s course. And I actually have a couple of bonuses for people in my audience who want to sign up for her course. So, first, you know, right up front, we’re going to get some insights from this course. And then we’ll learn a little bit more about Courtney’s background and her personal story that got her to this point. So, Courtney, your absolute top advice for an academic looking to start freelancing, what is it?

03:10 Courtney: My number one piece of advice for academics who want to start freelancing is to command high pay from day one. That’s because that’s a major mistake that I made when I first started freelancing. I had finished my master’s and I had done part of my PhD and I ended up dropping out of my PhD and decided to switch to freelancing. And as far as I was concerned, I thought I was starting from zero because I was doing freelance writing and I’m writing about topics that aren’t related to my academic discipline. And so, “I don’t know what I’m doing.” And that’s basically what I thought about myself. And so for that reason, I didn’t think that I deserved very high pay. And then I took a lot of jobs that didn’t pay very well at all.

03:57 Courtney: Actually, for the first year and a half or so that I freelanced I was not paid well at all. And then one day I was doing some research for an article that I was writing. I did a lot of ghostwriting back then, which is you write content for other people and it’s published under their name. And I was doing some research for an article that I was ghostwriting for a client. And I Googled something and I clicked on an article that was on forbes.com and I looked at it and it looked familiar. And then I realized that it was written by me. And after I realized that, I started doing some more Googling and I found that my content, stuff that I had written for my clients, had been published on Forbes, Vice, Business Insider, entrepreneur.com and like all these different top business publications. So, that’s what made me realize that, wow, I guess I am a really good writer in other niches besides just anthropology. And I do deserve to be paid well for the work that I do. And after that, I raised my rates, tripled them really, and basically never looked back.

05:05 Emily: I think that this advice is, one, good advice just for everybody, but two, something that academics or post-academics really need to hear, because we are kind of conditioned during graduate school to undervalue ourselves. And it takes really a lot of mental work–and for you a year and a half of actually working in your new field–to undo that conditioning, that mindset that’s been instilled in us. So, I think that it’s something that this audience really, really needs to hear. And I have found as I’ve been involved in academic entrepreneurship spaces, this is one of the top pieces of advice that we pass to one another, which is just raise your rates, raise your rates, raise your rates. I mean, we’re so conditioned. Yeah. We’re so conditioned not only to undervalue our time, undervalue our work, but also think that service is something that you have to do for your job, which I guess in academia, yes, you do have to, but outside of that, no, you should be paid for the value that you bring.

Courtney’s Course Covers Base Pay in Different Freelance Fields

06:09 Emily: So, anyway, it’s a wonderful, wonderful piece of advice. So, actually one thing I wanted to mention is, something I liked in your course is that you speak, of course your experience is in writing, but in the course, you cover a lot more than that, right? Freelancing is a lot more than just freelance writing. And so you talk about base pay rates that you can kind of expect in different fields. Right? I thought that was really that you just got the research jump-started a little bit for the people in the course.

06:40 Courtney: Yeah. You know, for me, I’m basically almost a hundred percent at this point, just a writer, but I actually have a lot of experience freelancing in other areas also, including doing editing and data science and different things. Because you can dip your nib in a lot of different freelance niches. And I also wanted to make the course really open to people who have different skill sets from what I have. Not everybody’s an anthropologist. They have different things, different skills that they bring from academia that they can earn good money from in freelancing also. And so, the course actually introduces several different popular niches, including writing and editing, translation, data science, consulting, sales, and marketing. So, you can kind of discover which one is the best fit for your current skills.

07:30 Emily: Yeah. I mean one of the fields you just mentioned, consulting, is always one that’s very attractive to me when I find other PhDs or graduate students who are consulting. One, because it’s a very broad in flexible kind of terms. So, a lot of people can be consultants in different ways, but also because it tends to command a nice high pay rate if you’re consulting in an area of expertise. I mean, you mentioned earlier that when you went into freelance writing, you were kind of moving away from anthropology. You were writing more about business. But you know, many other people who might be listening to this, they want to double down in their field of expertise. Right? And that’s how they can command those really high pay rates that you mentioned earlier.

08:07 Courtney: Absolutely.

Get Noticed as a Freelancer

08:07 Emily: Okay. So, let’s say you’ve convinced people, people are in your course, they’re going to go down this freelance route, whether it’s writing, consulting, some other field. What’s the best way for them to get started kind of hanging their shingle and letting people know I’m a freelancer now, you can hire me?

08:27 Courtney: Yeah. So, I think the first and most important thing is to build a website. Which, surprisingly to me, I know a lot of people in academia who were like, “Wow, you have your own website. That’s so cool. I wish I could do that.” And I’m like, “Well, you can. You can set up a website in one day. It’s not very difficult.” Yeah. So, building a website is the first and most important thing you can do to make yourself look like a professional freelancer. And that is another thing I discuss in my course. I take you through step by step, how to buy your domain hosting and set everything up, and what the important information you should put on your freelance website to make yourself look like a professional. So, that’s the first step.

09:02 Courtney: And then the next thing that you should do is use networking and cold pitching to get clients. Because there are a lot of freelance websites out there that you can get on where you can apply for jobs and stuff. And I’m not kicking that. I think that’s great also. And I do recommend that you do that, but you won’t get really high-paying clients from those kinds of gigs. You want to first start with networking. And even if you don’t have anybody, you can’t get any clients through your personal network. That’s fine. You can do it through cold pitching. And for me personally, over the years, the clients that I’ve had that have earned me hundreds of thousands of dollars are always the ones that I got through cold pitching. So, that’s what I recommend.

09:43 Emily: Yeah. You know, I actually went through a similar process. I don’t, I guess, identify as a freelancer, I identify as a business owner. But I went through a similar process when I started my business, which is how do I let people know that I’m available for speaking engagements and the other work that I was doing? And so I went through several years as I was building my network where I was cold emailing people. So, I know I don’t really love to be on the receiving end of most cold emails. And so I don’t love to send them either, but honestly, that was the necessary step in the overall process. So, I did a few years of a lot of cold emailing, built up my network, got some responses from that. And now I have basically stopped that. I kind of only do warm-emailing or cultivating my existing network at this point. So, I like that I’ve moved past that, but I feel like it was a really, really necessary start to the whole thing. My business would not have gotten off the ground if I hadn’t just been reaching out to people and trying to start establishing that network. So, it’s not necessarily pleasant, but it is necessary.

10:46 Courtney: It is necessary. And I always found it intimidating in the beginning, especially because you can send 50 emails and not get a response on a single one of them. That’s just the reality of cold pitching. But once you get that one gig and then it earns you a bunch of money, and then it’s like, “Oh, totally worth it.” And you feel motivated to do it more. And so, it can be intimidating. But that’s another thing that for the people who sign up for my course is that they have email support from me. And so, I will help them out with any questions they have. So, if they want to start cold emailing, but they’re not really sure where to start or what to say, they can ask me about that and I’ll give guidance based on the experience that I’ve had over the years.

How Freelancing Enhanced Courtney’s Life

11:28 Emily: That’s actually really nice. Because I know one of the sort of major challenges when you’re starting a business or starting a side income, like freelancing could be at first, is not really having colleagues who you can talk with about the work that you’re doing. And so, that’s just a really great sort of addition, in addition to the excellent content in your course, is also to be able to have interactions with you to get that support, again, as you’re building your network of your peers who are also freelancing or doing other kinds of work like that. So, I find that really valuable. I’ve been part of a couple of communities and I love just, you know, some people process things by talking to other people and they want some outside input, and you’re providing that. So, that’s super valuable. Now that we’ve gotten those excellent nuggets of advice from you, let’s talk a little bit about you and your story. I know you gave a quick overview at the start of the interview as to how you got into this, but why don’t you dive into a little bit more detail about what freelancing has done for you?

12:30 Courtney: Yeah, so, I flew through my bachelor’s degree and flew through my master’s holding my breath. I did that all really young and then I was starting my PhD. By the time I started my PhD, I was completely burnt out. It was just, I don’t need to explain how difficult academia is to anybody who’s listening to this podcast, but yeah, it was just too much for me and I needed a break. And the thing that I always loved about anthropology, the one thing that I love the most about it was being able to do field work. But field work was something that I was only ever able to do, if I was lucky, one or two months out of the year. And the rest of the year was spent in a windowless office doing research and data entry and stuff like that.

13:17 Courtney: And so, I wanted to just have the field work experience without the office experience. I just wanted to do something different. And so I was like, “Okay, I’m going to move to my field site. I love it there. I think it’s great. And I want to go live there. How can I do that? I don’t know.” And so, I actually ended up talking to my mom about it, who she actually works online. And she’s like, “Well, why don’t you start freelance writing? You don’t need to earn a lot of money in order to earn a living, especially if you’re in Africa. So, just give it a go.” And so, that’s what I did. I dropped out of my PhD program. I sold my car, used that to buy a plane ticket, and I left and I started freelancing here in Ethiopia and I’ve actually been here ever since.

13:59 Courtney: So, that has enhanced my life a lot because I get 12 months of sunshine, which is really important to me. And I love the environment and I love the culture and learning languages. And so that location-independence was really, really valuable to me for my mental health and just my personal happiness. And then the other thing that is always important is money. So, I earn very, very good money as a freelancer. I didn’t the first year and a half, as I mentioned before, but once I figured out that I was worth it, I started demanding it and asking for it. And I got it. And I continued to get it every time I raised my rates. People say, yes, somebody says yes. You know? And so, that’s really important, especially compared to academia, unfortunately. After the first two years of freelancing, I started earning more money than my former PhD advisor earns. And they’re a tenured professor. So, that’s something.

Location Independence and High Pay Rates

14:58 Emily: Yeah. I want to explore each of those points a little bit more because they’re both super attractive. The first one, the location-independence, you explained how that played out in your life. It enables you to move to the place that you want to live at one of your field sites and have sort of your whole life feel a little bit more like what you enjoyed the most about your academic experience. And of course, if someone else wants to do that and wants to make freelancing the way they make it happen, that’s awesome. I can think of some other benefits, which is, as you know, academic careers and PhD careers, you don’t have a lot of control over where you live, especially if you’re in academia. But even if you’re just a highly specialized professional, there are certain industries that are concentrated in certain cities, and so forth.

15:44 Emily: So, there may be reasons related to your PhD why you want to stay in a certain place, and this freelancing can follow you wherever you go. Side note, I as a, what’s called a trailing spouse–so we live where we live because my husband’s job is here and we anticipate moving because my husband may be changing jobs from time to time and he’s highly specialized–I get to take my business wherever I go. So, I don’t have to start over in a new job every time I might need to move. So, that’s a real, real benefit that I see that location-independence. And then of course on the money side, because this is a personal finance podcast. So, commanding the high pay rates, getting paid very well for your time.

16:26 Emily: Not just for people like you who are doing this full time, but as a side hustle. If that’s the way this starts, or that’s the way you want to keep this as you move forward in your freelancing career, as well as your academic or PhD-type career. It’s really nice when you can make a good amount of money for not that much time invested. As a PhD student, for example, you might be able to work, I don’t know, two hours a week, five hours a week, some pretty small number, but still get a really, really nice amount of money out of that small, small side hustle. And when you compare that, when you’re thinking about hourly rates to the other kinds of work that some PhDs do, or some people do when they’re still in graduate school or PhD training, it’s really nice, right?

17:10 Emily: To not have to work so many hours and also to have maybe a more like stimulating type of work, intellectually that is, yet something that is different probably from what you’re doing as your main day to day job, if this is still a side hustle. I think that’s really attractive in terms of having balance in your life. It’s awesome that you’ve been able to command these high pay rates and put together this full-time career, making a very nice income from Africa, from where you wanted to live. And I definitely want others to consider following your tracks.

17:44 Courtney: You were saying that this is like a full-time job for me, which it kind of is. But a lot of other people who listen to your podcast are people who are in academia to stay and they would like to have some additional stream of income to add on top of that. So, one point that I would like to make is that I actually do not work full-time. I work maybe 15 or 20 hours a week. But I actually still earn a full-time income because I get paid well. And this is something that I choose for my personal life because I have three foster kids and I homeschool them. And between that, and being a mom and, keeping my yard clean, I work 15, 20 hours a week on freelancing and that’s about it. And so you could do this as a part-time gig and still earn a lot of money. It doesn’t have to become like your full career. You don’t need to invest a hundred percent of your time in it. I don’t even invest a hundred percent of my time and I don’t even have another source of income. So, that’s something.

18:41 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for adding that. That’s awesome that you’re earning this like great, full-time income from part-time work. I actually also work part-time as well. I work about 25 hours a week and I’m quite happy with that balance actually. So, I really like that you added that point because the whole working 40 hours a week thing is so job-centric. That’s what our culture has decided–well, really not just 40, much more than 40 hours a week–is like the proper amount of time to be working. And once you start your own business, once you strike out on your own, all the rules are out the window, right? You can define what you want your work life to look like completely. And that goes both location and time and amount of money as we talked about earlier. So, I’m so glad that you added that. Thank you.

Endless Freelance Income: What to Expect

19:28 Emily: Let’s say someone is super excited about what we’ve been talking about. They want to start down their freelancing career in whatever field that might be in, and they want to sign up for your course, which again, they can do through pfforphds.com/freelance. And you can get the couple of bonuses that I created there. So, what can someone expect to find when they start your course?

19:49 Courtney: Okay. Well, first I guess I’ll explain who the course is for specifically. After I started freelancing, even in the first year or two I started freelancing, I got emails from people that I know. From people in my former cohort, professors that I know, people in grad school who heard, “Hey, I heard that you left academia and started freelancing. And I’d like to do something similar. Can you give me some advice?” And so, I’ve been giving advice to people for years. I get emails several, 10 or 15 times a year, I get an email from somebody, or I get a referral from somebody who’s in academia and they want to make the switch, or they want to add on to an additional stream of income through freelancing. And so, after years of basically kind of helping people just as like a side project, I decided to create a course to basically do what I was already doing, but do it in a more organized and formal way to help people.

Ch. 1: Intro to Freelance, Ch. 2: Identify Your Valuable Skills

20:47 Courtney: So, that’s what I created this course for. It’s called Endless Freelance Income, how to turn your liberal arts degree into an endless freelance income. However, even if your background is in science or any of the STEM areas, it can also be relevant to you. So, the course at the very beginning, it just introduces you to the online freelance world. So, if you don’t know the first thing about it, don’t worry. I will explain it to you in the course. That’s the first chapter. And then the next chapter, which I think is probably the most valuable one for people, is helping you identify what your most valuable and profitable skills are, from academia, that you can translate into freelance income. Through the mentoring there, I also kind of help people–people tend to overlook their skills. They think, “Oh, I guess I can write,” or like, “I guess I can do some data analysis, but I don’t have a degree in that. So, I’m not qualified to do that.” So, kind of just help people break that down. Imposter syndrome follows you outside of academia. I learned that the hard way. And so, just kind of help people to understand, no, these are valuable skills and you can utilize them.

22:08 Emily: What I liked about that portion of your course, what I noticed there is that you have worksheets in here, right? So, it’s not just like, I’m just reading all this material. It’s a very engaging format, right? So, you’re giving people some little tools they can use to do things like brainstorm about their own skillsets, which I totally agree with what you said. We tend to discount our own skills or our own areas of expertise unless we have a degree in it. That’s very important to us in academics that we have a degree in XYZ. But I know, personally, like my field is now personal finance and I don’t have a degree in personal finance and that’s okay. I’m still confident at this point that I am an expert in this area because of my long experience. But I think that for people who aren’t quite there yet, it is a little difficult of a hurdle to overcome. So, your course definitely helps with that.

22:55 Courtney: Yeah. And you know, same story for me, I’m an anthropologist, but I write in marketing topics, marketing and entrepreneurship. And I am an expert because I became one. And that’s it. And so, you can do it, too. That’s basically what the course helps you to figure out. So, once you’ve kind of broken down and pulled your skills out, then the next chapter teaches you about several different major freelance niches that you can get into. And I already mentioned before, there’s writing, editing translation, administrative support, design and creative, customer service, consulting, data science analysis, and sales and marketing are the ones that I go through. So, those are the main ones. And then it walks you through how you can look at your current skills and line them up with what each of these niches demand, or what they need.

How to Look Professional as a Freelancer

23:46 Courtney: And then it also helps you think about which one’s most interesting to you too. Because it’s not just about your skills, it’s also about what you want to do, right? And then you can choose your niche. And then after that, the course goes through how to make yourself look professional as a freelancer. One thing that I discovered when I left academia is that I needed to tone down my CV. What’s professional in academia and what’s professional in the online business world are very different. And so I kind of teach people how to make yourself look professional online as opposed to professional as a 10-page CV, or something like that. So, that’s the next step. And then the next thing after that is teaching you how to research your niche so that you can figure out what the going rates are in your niche, the going rates for somebody with your skill level, and just kind of also to weed through the riffraff.

24:47 Courtney: Because a lot of people out there, you know, they say $10 an hour or something like that. Yeah. You don’t need to pay attention to those people. So, to figure out how much you should be charging in the beginning. And then after that, the course takes you through step by step how to create your website, which I mentioned before. And then it walks you through what you need to do to land your first client. And that is the course in a nutshell, as it is right now. I plan to add onto it. Like I said before, I think cold pitching is important. So, one thing I plan to add on to it in the future is more information about walking people through how to set up a cold pitching scheme. And so, that’s something I plan to add onto it in the future. And the good news is that if you have access to the course, you buy it now, you’ll have access to all that future material as it comes up.

Bonus Content from Emily

25:34 Emily: That sounds awesome. As I said earlier, I read through the course prior to this interview, and it really breaks things down and simplifies them and doesn’t make it seem so intimidating to start down this path of freelancing. You really don’t over complexify anything. It’s very simple steps to follow, to get started. So, I wanted to mention for my audience, if you choose to buy Courtney’s course through my affiliate link again, pfforphds.com/freelance, I’ve created a couple of extra bonuses for you. So, one that everyone will receive who buys through my link is a free video training on how to budget with an irregular income, right? So, like I’m really confident, you go through Courtney’s course, you’re committed to this. Like you’re going to be starting down that path of having freelance income.

26:18 Emily: And you know, that’s a really great thing, but it can also pose some budgeting challenges. So, I’ve created a training that you’ll get for free when you buy the course on how to manage that. Like manage your finances when you have a side income stream that’s irregular, maybe growing into a full-sized income stream over time. So, it’ll help you with that. And then for the first five people who buy the course, so not everyone, but just the first five, I’m going to offer a free 20-minute financial coaching session. So, what I think will be really great about this is if you schedule this for maybe like two months out from when you start taking the course, it’ll be a nice little accountability point to meet with me at that time and say, “Okay, Emily, here’s the income stream. I’ve established it. I got my first invoice over here. I’ve gotten paid for the first time.” And so we can talk more about what you want to do with that money. How it’s going to help you reach your goals. How it’s going to fit into your budget. Do you want to be paying debt? Do you want to be investing it? So, we can talk about all that kind of stuff. So, that’s how I recommend you use that bonus if you’re one of the first five to sign up is schedule it a little ways out. So you actually have that income stream established by the time we meet together. And I’ll certainly be asking you, have you been implementing everything from the course? So again, pfforphds.com/freelance is where you can sign up and of course link through to find out more about the course from Courtney.

Best Financial Advice for Early-Career Academics

27:38 Emily: So, Courtney, we’ve come to the end of the interview. Thank you so much for what you’ve shared with the audience today. I think it’s been excellent advice and thank you for telling us more about Endless Freelance Income. So, final question that I ask all my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early career academic or maybe recovering academic like you?

28:00 Courtney: My best advice would be don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Something my dad told me when I was 17 years old and I didn’t know what it meant at the time, but now I do. So, even if you’ve got your dream job, even if you’ve gotten that research position or that tenure track job or whatever, you never know what’s going to happen in the future. That’s something we’ve learned this year in 2020, I think. And so, having an additional stream of income is really valuable. And I know that’s what Emily talks about all the time on her blog. And the thing about freelancing is that there’s no risk in starting and giving it a try. And you can just work on it in your spare time and you can build it up over time in whatever time you have. And if you don’t have time to work on it, you don’t have time to work on it. And it doesn’t hurt you to work on this and build up this extra stream of income. You don’t have to be like me where you leave your job and leave your country and change your whole career. I think that all academics should be doing something on the side, some kind of freelancing, blogging, something. So, that’s my advice.

29:06 Emily: Yeah. I totally agree. You know, not all the eggs in one basket can apply it to a lot of different areas, but certainly when it comes to your income, having a job or even being in graduate school means you’re dependent on another institution to decide to continue to give you work. But the advantage of freelancing is that you spread that around to a lot of different clients and it’s much less risk. Yeah, one client drops off, no big deal. You can supplement that by hustling up a few new clients. But if your employer decides they don’t want to work with you anymore, that’s kind of a devastating like life thing. So, excellent, excellent advice. What I also like about what you said is that if you do the work, for instance, by going through your course. If you do the work to establish yourself as a freelancer, and you devote even something like an hour a week to it, like I mentioned earlier. As long as that income stream is established and in a field like freelancing, it’s something that you can decide to turn up or turn down as you need in your own life.

30:00 Emily: So, for example, if you have an unfunded summer, you know, some people–again, you mentioned 2020–some people in 2020 have late in the game discovered that they don’t have summer funding in the way that they thought they would. Yes. Their funding will pick up again in the fall. It’s not like they’re going to drop out of graduate school and get a full-time job or whatever. But for a few months, the income that they thought was secure is not there. So, once the situation is upon you, it’s very difficult to scramble and kind of fix it. But if you’ve already established that one hour per week freelancing job, then that’s something you can ramp up or ramp down as your life allows, as your money situation requires. So, I just think that’s a real advantage to establishing yourself. Even if you’re not going to do it, like you just said, 15 hours a week to make the equivalent of a full-time income. So, great, great advice. Courtney, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It was a real pleasure to talk with you again.

30:54 Courtney: Thanks so much, Emily. Thank you.

Outtro

30:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Negotiate as a Graduate Student or PhD in Industry and Academia

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Abby Rainer, a PhD in organizational communication and Lean Six Sigma Black Belt. Abby’s dissertation focused on women in STEM careers negotiating their first jobs, and the expertise she brings to our interview is from her education, her research, and her personal experience. We discuss the correct way to frame your negotiation and why that’s challenging for some PhDs; the importance of considering all aspect of your offer, not just your salary; the similarities and differences between negotiating in academia vs. industry; and the biggest misconception people hold regarding negotiation.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

PhD negotiation

Teaser

00:00 Abby: Realizing that negotiation doesn’t have to be a one-shot, do or die, black and white kind of mindset. It can be over time. You will get many, many different chances to negotiate your worth or negotiate your package and everything.

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 11, and today my guest is Dr. Abby Rainer, a PhD in organizational communication and Lean Six Sigma Black Belt. Abby’s dissertation focused on women in STEM careers negotiating their first jobs, and the expertise she brings to our interview is from her education, her research and her personal experience. We discuss the correct way to frame your negotiation and why that’s challenging for some PhDs, the importance of considering all aspects of your offer, not just your salary, the similarities and differences between negotiating in academia versus industry, and the biggest misconception people hold regarding negotiation. This is a jam-packed episode that will be valuable for graduate students and PhDs at every stage of their careers. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Abby Rainer.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:22 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Dr. Abby Rainer, and we’re going to be talking a lot about negotiation and mindsets around that, particularly women in negotiation. I’m so excited for this topic, and Abby is an actual expert. This is related to her PhD work, and she now has a business related to this area. So, she’s going to tell us all a lot more about that. Abby, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. And will you fill our listeners in about your background?

01:48 Abby: Sure. Thank you for having me, Emily. I really appreciate being on here. So, to cover my background in a pretty brief term, I got my PhD from Michigan State University in 2018 and got a similar combination of a bachelor’s and master’s degree from Wake Forest. I got the master’s in 2015 and the bachelor’s at the end of 2013. So, I combined both of those degrees into five years just so I could hurry up and get onto the PhD.

02:14 Abby: I was cross-trained in several different areas that are relevant to today’s topic, including communication, industrial organizational psychology, management, human resources, and then education administration. And then areas that I trained on and did research on as well as other administrative work included areas like social support, stress, family planning, and some health topics. But then I also had a lot of business topics like specifically, if you are looking to negotiate your benefits and compensation packages. And then I looked a lot at STEM career trajectories. So, how women were flourishing and more male-dominated areas and the strategies they use to choose their careers and kind of how those paths sort of manifested for them. And then on top of, with my recent background, I have made courses for grad students on Udemy that cover areas like negotiating your benefits and compensation for grad school. And then also if they want to do more of a process improvement project on their finances, then they can find my green belt training there too, which covers a lot of very simple and straightforward ways to save money and document how you do that. It gives you a lot of tools on how to figure that out.

What is Your Udemy Site?

03:22 Emily: Yeah. Could you repeat the name of your Udemy site?

03:26 Abby: Sure. So, the Udemy is just a sort of, what’s called a MOOCs So, a Massive [Open] Online Course website and people can go to Udemy’s website and then they can just type in things like “grad school funding.” That would be a series of keywords that would bring up my training on graduate school benefits and compensation. And then they could also type in green belt, Six Sigma Green Belt, or Lean Six Sigma Green Belt and also my name. So, that should help them see where that pops up. I’ve only created one green belt training. I’ve not had more than one, so it should isolate that one particular training very quickly.

Abby’s Dissertation: Women in STEM + Negotiation

04:01 Emily: Oh good. Yeah, I wasn’t sure if it was going to be under like your name or like a business name or something. Abby, what’d you tell us a little bit in more detail, what was the subject of your dissertation?

04:10 Abby: Sure. So, I kind of in connection with what I was talking about earlier, I had done research on women in STEM careers and then work on negotiation in general. Like I gave some presentation work on hostage negotiation and terrorism, and this is a very different type of negotiation, but having a background, like a family background in finance, I kind of wanted to combine all those areas and some finance research I had done and specifically look at how women going into STEM careers, specifically their first STEM careers, how they negotiated not only their salaries, but really other types of compensation they could get like their health care packages, how much family time, like leave they had for, for instance, caring for children, and then other areas like bonuses and just work assignments as well.

04:56 Emily: And what drew you to that area? Why did you choose that for your PhD work?

05:01 Abby: I chose that because there was a lot of work that involved experiments, for instance, that created hypothetical situations, but these women were real-life women who had actually gone through actual negotiations in different companies across the United States. And so, I wanted to get a sense of reality. I wanted to see what women were actually going through and I collected a mix of quantitative and qualitative data. I used most of the quantitative data for the PhD sort of dissertation part, but I also created a series of questions in the survey that looked at, for instance, what were the descriptions of the negotiations actually happening, like who was involved in the negotiation? Did they say anything that was maybe discriminatory or that showed some sort of bias toward the women? And so, really looking at those areas, I started to pull some data on things like how much training impacted different outcomes, like how much money women were thinking of walking away with, or how much they actually walked away with.

05:59 Abby: And then I also looked at about 20 different benefits that women were able to get during negotiations, like a series of negotiations, and which ones they tended to get, so I could isolate different trends as to what people were more likely to walk away with other than just the salary being increased.

06:16 Emily: Yeah. I love that you actually took this forward into, let’s not just look at what’s going on, but what interventions are possible to actually help the situation a bit. That’s great. And I’m sure that we’ll talk more about that in a minute here, but just for the listeners. I mean, Abby obviously is an expert in this area. She has a lot to say, so we’re going to move really quickly through a few different questions in this interview. And if you want to follow up with her, which I imagine many of you will want to, check out the website that she already mentioned, her courses and so forth, and you’ll get a lot more of the content there.

Role of Mindset in Negotiation 

06:48 Emily: So, okay. I have been talking more and more recently about mindset and about its importance in personal finance. And I know that you also know something about mindset with respect to negotiation. So, what role does mindset play when you’re going into negotiation?

07:07 Abby: I think that mindset has everything to do with not only how confident you are, but also how effective you are. And you have to monitor how you are coming across in an interview so that you have to develop that sense of mindfulness. That way you can do what’s called pivoting. So, pivoting will be that you notice that someone’s not responding particularly well to a negotiation tactic, like using too much silence, for instance. You can turn the conversation around and ultimately start executing a series of steps based on that reaction to get what you want. So, you have to really stay in the present with the conversation, that way you’re able to assess the situation ongoing.

07:40 Abby: And you’re just able to create new strategies or choose ones that you already have in mind as you go along and just keep responding to what’s there, not what’s going on in your head and not what you think should be happening.

How Can PhDs Overcome a Scarcity Mindset when Negotiating?

07:50 Emily: I see. So, kind of what I’m hearing is what happens in negotiation is not totally set, linear, this is the exact script kind of path. And you have to be kind of adaptive to what is going on in the situation. And how can a PhD–like I know a lot of PhDs come into this whole post-PhD career thing with a lot of hangups that they developed in graduate school, around money and around their worth and so forth. And, you know, we might even call this like a scarcity mindset, or like a poverty mindset. And so, how does a PhD set that aside when they’re going into a negotiation? Like how do you actually overcome that if that’s what’s happened during graduate school?

08:31 Abby: I think that one really good way to look at it, especially if you were going into a non-academic job or if you were going into your first professor job and you’re not really sure, kind of where you stand compared to other people is, think through how to calculate and communicate your ROI or return on investment. That’s a very important business term not a lot of PhDs really think about or know how to calculate or communicate. But whenever you’re in a negotiation, let’s just say, I’m going to use a real life example of mine. I was interviewing with a major retailer, specifically in the jean sector, once for a job. I had to fly out to a different state to do that. And as I was there, I talked with, I think about 10 to 20 people.

09:11 Abby: And just one day, I had a series of individual meetings with some people, like higher-level directors, and then a larger lunch with a smaller group of people who were lower-ranked. I think they were maybe talent recruiters or something. And so, what I learned while there was that people wanted to hear how you were able to contribute to the table in ways they understood. So, with that particular case, I was interviewing for a jean company. So, some language to use when communicating my ROI would have been things like “best-sellers.” Like if I wanted to predict who was going to be engaged in a company over time, so looking at employee engagement, how to improve that, I could say the five best-sellers or in more or less research terms that grad students might understand, the five predictors of work engagement would be, let’s just say supervisor quality and four other things.

10:03 Abby: So, learning how to speak in ways that people in industry understand that don’t necessarily rely on statistics, because a lot of them don’t really know very much, if anything, about statistics is a good idea. And you can apply that mindset too if you’re applying to academic jobs like being a professor or a postdoc. You just have to know, for instance, let’s just say for ROI, you wanted to calculate how much grant money you’ve brought to the table when applying for different grants, or how many students you’ve taught, or ways that you’ve saved the university money. Other things like those can be communicated in a way that’s specific to your department or organization and what they care about. So, match what you’ve done to what people care about, and communicate it in a way that uses industry-specific language that they understand. And you should be good to go and sort of like start to defeat that poverty mindset over time. Because you can physically see–you can’t really contradict numbers in that case–you can see on paper, “Okay, I’ve done a hundred thousand worth of grants in one year. That’s a lot of money.” So, just starting to visualize that, but also learn how to be precise is important.

Focus on Thriving, Not Just Surviving

11:07 Emily: Yeah. What I’m hearing you say in this portion is like, I think part of the problems, and these are universal outside of academic training or whatever. Some people, a lot of people come into a negotiation thinking, “What do I need to survive? What kind of salary do I need to command to have the lifestyle that I want?” And coming out of graduate school, it’s probably not a high number because you’ve probably been living on a pretty, pretty low salary for the last several years. And you’re reframing this not as, “Okay, well, what do I need to get by?” But rather, “What value am I bringing to this organization? What metrics, what proof points do I have to back this up?” And also the further step of, “I need to communicate this to them in a way that they’re going to latch onto and appreciate,” not necessarily your most natural way of communicating. Does that sum up what you were saying?

11:55 Abby: Absolutely. And what a lot of people have to think about is not really putting themselves of “How much money do I need to survive,” but, “What is my, what’s called, market value?” So, when you look at market value, it’s a completely different mindset from what you’re taught in grad school, because the norms in your particular field, like if you’re going into tech, the norms for salary and benefits will be different they. Somewhat depending on the company, but also compared to other industries. Like if you work in manufacturing. So, you have to just consider those differences. But also you have to think of the whole negotiation as a win-win mindset. So, it’s not just about what can I get from this company. You have to think about me, myself, and family, because realistically speaking, and I know this is kind of harsh, but a lot of people, and especially in HR, will, if people say something in an interview, like “I need this much mind to live,” unfortunately they’ll just tell you perhaps even bold facedly, they don’t care, you know, what you need to survive, which it knows is harsh and I would never–I’m in HR.

12:48 Abby: So, I would never say that to an applicant. But really the company just cares about what you can bring to the table, because the implication of you bringing things is that they will take care of you in turn. So, you don’t really have to communicate, “This is what I need.” You have to show them based on, for instance, your certificates, what your capacities are, just different software and other skills that they find relevant. You can use all of that to get more money because you are clearly bringing more to the table. They’ll be generally more willing to pay for all those skills. Because especially, at least in my case, for instance, I bring a lot of really rare skill sets to my particular job. And I got that job through a contract. And so, you know, just being able to show what all you bring that will help the company give you the money and you won’t have to worry about surviving as much. You’ll be able to think about thriving, which is completely different, as far as the psychological response goes. Survival schools, more of grad school, it’s just the bare minimum. What can I possibly scrape by? With industry, you should present yourself as what can I do to thrive and help people at work thrive and just kind of frame it like that.

Big-Picture Negotiation Items Besides Salary

13:47 Emily: Yeah, so this is really, you know, taking a step back from being very me, me as the applicant, very me-focused and more about what am I bringing to this organization? What other big-picture items should applicants be thinking about when they’re going into a negotiation process?

14:02 Abby: I think that one of the big ones that a lot of people don’t really particularly talk about, and sometimes I’ve heard in even other podcasts, maybe discourage a little bit, is thinking about what’s called the total reward lens. So, the total reward lens, if you think of the big pie, for instance, like the kind of pie you can eat, not the number. If you think of a pie and you think of all the possible pieces that could come out of it, those are all interrelated, but they’re also their own separate entities once they’ve been cut out of the pie. So, they’re able to be standalone items. Whenever you think of a total reward lens, whenever it comes to getting what you want from work, you have to think of that kind of like a pie, too, because salary is naturally going to be a big part of that pie for a lot of people. But you also have other pieces of the pie like your healthcare, which projects you can work on, the quality of your supervisor.

14:51 Abby: And then some other areas like how much autonomy do you get? Or how much natural light does your office get? And those pieces of the pie in terms of their size or their weight, depending on how you want to think about it, are all different for different people. So, you have to think about, “If I were to make my ideal pie, what would that look like in terms of where all the pieces are and how much those matter relative to the overall sort of picture that I’ve got going on?” Because different people are going to have different needs. If you’ve got a parent who’s got young children, then maybe flexibility might be more important for them. Or if you have someone who’s more into work-life balance, like they want to go ski on the weekends, then that might be very important to them, too. But it might not be as important to someone who maybe like myself is single and doesn’t really have to take care of kids, at least right now. So, it really depends on your specifics. So, you just have to like define those numbers for yourself, but also realize if you don’t get a bigger part of the pie focusing on salary, maybe you could get a bigger part of the pie that would focus on another area or two or three other areas that you also care about.

Is Everything Open for Negotiation?

15:53 Emily: Yeah. I think this is an area that people definitely don’t pay enough attention to. Like you were saying, it’s kind of all about the salary, but there are so many other aspects to your benefits or just your work culture and work style that should play into your decision about which kind of job to accept and also what to negotiate. So, would you say that is every piece of this pie up for negotiation? Or like where might one focus your negotiation if you’re not quite happy with all the different pieces?

16:22 Abby: A lot of it depends on the type of job you have. So, for instance, if you are working in a government position that is governed by a shared contract, like a collective bargaining agreement, for instance. Then certain areas of your package, like the initial salary may very well not be negotiable. I actually had to tell, whenever I was hiring people, several individuals who applied, this is part of the collective bargaining agreement. You can’t negotiate it. Over time, you can perform better and get a bonus that way. But at least with this contract, your salary, at least your base, is set. So, if you want to get more money over time, it’s really on you. You have to perform in terms of exceeding expectations. And then you can get more money that way. You can also get other money by doing other tasks that the job would be open to.

17:08 Abby: So, for instance, if you did overtime, that might be something that you’d be able to get more money from, but it again depends on whether that’s available. So, those are some examples of what all you could do besides money. And then, of course, you have to think about too, what other options are available? And most places have a lot of different options when it comes to healthcare. For instance, you might have a lower deductible, and that works for you whenever it comes to healthcare, compared to someone else who wants to have a higher deductible. Or you might want to put more money in your 401k, like a retirement account, or, you know, the company might match whatever you do put in. So, you just have to look at/get sort of an initial view. If you can, if there’s an employment handbook, that will usually tell you different things like the possible packages available, the benefits, like maybe gym membership.

17:53 Abby: So, try and look there first. And usually those come through websites, they might be coming through HR. Like HR might directly send you them. Once you get your initial offer letter, just take a look at not only the offer letter, but the information they send over through those handbooks. A lot of people don’t even bother to look at those handbooks, but they’re very useful. So, I would just say, take a survey of what you’ve gotten initially. And then if you’re not happy with something, think about, “Okay, what could I bring to the table in terms of ROI to argue why I should get that thing?” So, it’s not like, most places are not going to have a huge conversation about negotiating healthcare. You go on and enroll yourself. So, that’s kind of a proxy for negotiation, but if it’s something like maybe extra days off, you would want to be able to come up with an argument to justify that. Personally, from an HR standpoint, I wouldn’t start from the job like day one saying, “I want more hours off.” I would wait until over time, maybe six months once you’ve had a little bit of tenure there, to propose that. But it just really depends on your situation. Try to take into account whatever information you do receive. And if you have questions, of course, ask at that time into your discussion, depending on your situation.

Commercial

19:04 Emily: Hey social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15-minute call with me at pfforphds.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time. I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now, back to our interview.

How Employee Training Benefits the Employer

19:50 Emily: I want to mention one of the things that my husband actually negotiated for when he took his current position was, I guess you would call it, like training. So, like professional development. Maybe it’s something like, it’s not clear whether that actually like increased, you know, what he was going to get anyway, but it made it more explicit to his employer that he was looking to advance his career. And this is how he saw, you know, that he wanted to do it. And they said, “Yes” to it. Like, “Yes” to his proposal. So, I would imagine that would apply in a lot of other places, maybe where negotiation on salary or something else is a little bit more rigid. But you know, you can set yourself up right from the beginning to, you know, to seem like a go getter, right? You’re going for a promotion like right away, you know, you’re eager. You’re going to be growing your career. You want to grow with that company and how can they help you do that?

20:37 Abby: Right. And one of the things that you want to communicate whenever you’re proposing for something like more training is what kind of value that would also bring to the company, because that will set you up. For instance, one of the trainings I received during my government job, my last job, was that I was able to become a Lean Six Sigma Green Belt and a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt. And a lot of people might not know what those are or what they mean in terms of quantities, but in the process improvement area and finance and some other areas, those are very well sought-after certifications for people to have. And you can bump up your salary over time by anywhere from 5,000 with green belt to maybe 20,000 plus with a black belt.

21:13 Abby: But at the same time, you’re also able to save companies a lot of money because you’re able to go in, create change interventions, lead people through those interventions, and then identify ways that your group can maybe devote money to other resources. Like if you’re spending too much on training, for instance, and you could maybe cut costs or reallocate those costs, then maybe you can use that money to give people higher bonuses or something to that effect. So, as you’re proposing that increase in training, definitely make sure to communicate how that would benefit the company too, because in some way, shape or form, it probably will. You just want to make sure that people understand what that is from a very early standpoint. That way, you can frame your training as, “Okay, I propose there are five key goals that I’m going to get out of this. I’m going to go in, get those and I’ll show my team whatever those things were.” That way I can make sure I’m consistent with what I promised.

Negotiation in Academia vs. Industry

22:00 Emily: Excellent. So, I imagine we have people in the audience who, you know, they’re hearing your talk and you’ve mentioned industry a lot so far. But many of my listeners may be, you know, gunning to stay in academia. So, is the process of negotiation different, the same between those two different types of workplaces?

22:20 Abby: I would say that some of the behavioral norms and perceptions are very different. Because when I was in academia, I was in grad school and then I negotiated for my negotiation packages, like my benefits and compensation packages. And so, the first time I did it, wasn’t really negotiable as we were kind of on a collective bargaining agreement. Again, meaning that we all just had the same benefits and compensation. Like our stipends were all the same, and there wasn’t really a step-raise as much. But a lot of people in academia can negotiate quite a lot, too. And I would say that one of those critical parts of you negotiating, whether you’re a faculty member or a grad student of any level coming in, is that make sure you go do a campus visit. If you’re not invited to, definitely make sure you go do one. Because you want to get kind of a survey as to what your office area might look like, what the different resources like laboratories for instance are or libraries, and really how the people are, too, and kind of how everything is arranged. Because what I’ve noticed over time is that the way a department is arranged in terms of its space, its people, and its resources will tell you a lot about how you’ll fit well there or not.

23:23 Abby: So, for instance, I went to whenever deciding between two different PhD programs, I decided which one based on the visit that I went to with each one. So, whenever I went to grad school A, Choice A, I noticed that for instance, the offices had no windows whatsoever. And that’s very common in a lot of places in academia, especially if you’re in a much larger, more kind of cloistered building. And I was thinking, I’m definitely the kind of person who needs natural light. And that might not sound like a big deal to many people. But when you’re in an office for three years, constantly working on high-stress projects, maybe dealing with students who have a lot of problems and then other people who come in with different requests, you want to make sure that you have an office that’s inviting to at least some extent.

24:08 Abby: And so, I thought a natural light kind of office would be better for that. That wasn’t as big of a pie piece. Getting back to my pie analogy earlier, compared to the travel stipend that I got, for instance, but it definitely was important. So, use the visit that you get to kind of determine what you need to negotiate and think about because you can actually get a lot more by going to visit. Because whenever I went to visit, I got an extra, I think it was 4,000 at the start, from Place A compared to Place B just by contributing during the discussions that people had about, you know, why you want to become a grad student here and so on. And you’re able to meet people and add value to them. And that’s the key thing is make sure you add value that way. People are more likely to give you things in return because you can leverage that powerful principle of social reciprocity, which is if someone gets something from you, they’re more likely to give back in return.

Virtual Campus Visits

24:56 Emily: So, we’re recording this on March 23rd, 2020. And I think all PhD grad visits are probably off at this point for the remainder of admission season. Now, we’re actually going to publish this episode, I think after April 15th. So, after all the decisions have been made. But I’m just thinking about for students in this current situation, or maybe in future years when a visit is not possible for whatever reason. Of course, it’s ideal, but if it’s not possible, how can an applicant as a graduate student, or even at a later stage, get a sense of these things remotely, somehow? What do they need to do to create a facsimile of an actual visit?

25:36 Abby: Sure. So, there are different options. And I think that departments, if any faculty are listening, I would highly encourage them to explore this option. I’ll really just lay out two quick options. One would be to see if there’s any way–some departments already do this, depending on the school and the department you’re in, some don’t. Some departments offer digital tours. So, if students cannot come for whatever reason, they might have someone doing kind of a vlog of the laboratory, that might be something that’s interesting and valuable to you. And maybe you can live tweet them while you’re doing that. It really just depends on who all is leading that. Another option would be to, and you probably should do this in addition to option one, if you can. But another option would be definitely talking about your office setup and other things with faculty and grad students. Grad students would be more likely the safer option whenever it comes to communicating about what their offices are like. Faculty may very well not know anything about what current grad students are doing with their offices.

26:28 Abby: A lot of places do publish things about their grad student groups. Like who’s the president, VP, finance person, so forth. I was the finance chair with my group. But try to get out to reach that person, and they will probably connect you. If they don’t know something, they will connect you with someone who does. So, I would follow those steps. And then also just if the place has a Facebook group, for instance, definitely see what all people are taking pictures of there. And really over time, I would just say, try to ask a lot of really good questions. Because faculty and grad students love it when someone not only praises their work that they’ve been working on, but they have a mutual interest in, but also they appreciate someone who asked really thoughtful questions about things that they care about, too. So, I think if you frame it still as a win-win, like I’m giving this person a valuable, interesting conversation and they’re giving me information in turn that’s useful, I think that that will help you come across a lot more effectively. Because email conversations were very instrumental for me, too, whenever applying to grad school and deciding between different schools as well.

Misconceptions Around Negotiation

27:25 Emily: Yeah, I think if at all possible those conversations should happen over the phone or over video conferencing. Just because if a grad student, for instance, has anything not so nice to say about their department or their advisor or their group or whatever, they’re probably not going to want to put that in writing. So, it’s much better to speak live and not in a recorded fashion when you’re having those really candid conversations with current graduate students. So, thank you so much for those thoughts, Abby. And finally, can you clear up any misconceptions for us around negotiation and negotiation strategies?

28:03 Abby: I think that one of the biggest ones that I didn’t really think about early on, but started to realize over time, and then of course in retrospect, see a lot better is that a lot of people worry about negotiation if they don’t get it right the very first time–like their first semester right as, for instance, they’re getting into grad school or right as they’re becoming a professor or an industry professional–that they’ll never be able to do negotiation over time, or they’ll never be able to get it right. So, there’s that kind of fixed mentality of, “If I don’t get it now then I never will.” And that’s not necessarily true because the truth is that your job is very dynamic over time. People change. Sometimes departments get reorganized as we’ve seen more lately, whether you are in academia or in industry. Sometimes entire companies get reorganized to where their benefits and compensation structures change.

28:46 Abby: So, always be aware of what’s going on in your organization or in your grad school or your department, if you’re a faculty member or person wanting to join that. And just keep aware of the changes going on. That way, you can see different opportunities. Also make sure to realize that you are still, no matter where you are in your career, adding some sort of value, like a service, to your department or a company, for instance. So, keep abreast as to what ROI you are bringing to the table. And you can even keep, for instance, like a shout out sheet. I know a lot of people will use that. So, it’s like a list of all those accomplishments you have, what value that’s added, like making employees more engaged or improving organization, like even organizing a closet or like an area of the office where people store papers or files can be very useful. That may or may not be in your job description, but it depends on your situation.

Negotiation Can Happen Over Time

29:36 Abby: So, just realizing that negotiation doesn’t have to be a one shot, do or die, black and white kind of mindset. It can be over time. You will get many, many different chances to negotiate your worth or negotiate your package and everything. Because for instance, whenever I went into grad school, the grad school I chose for my PhD program had a lower stipend than the one that was offering me a package in return. And the reason I chose that other one was just that it really seemed to fit more with what I was hoping to do regarding the research methods path I wanted to go on, regarding the kind of set up of the department, and some other factors. But what happened was that over time I actually got, I think it was 15,000 extra dollars from that department during my three years there because I got 3,000 extra dollars in conference funding that I didn’t even have to apply for. The department chair just told me I qualified for it based on how I was a domestic student.

30:31 Abby: There were other things like consultant contracts which I was able to get and work on that brought in extra money. And then there were some other things too, like dissertation grant money that I got a lot more of there than I would have at the other place. So, I actually ended up kind of starting from a lower place at that Choice B university or not really Choice B, but Option B, and then working my way up to where I got actually a lot more money, pretty much almost a year’s worth of extra money, for only going three years. So, it doesn’t have to be like a one shot kind of picture. You just have to think over time, how can I find ways to negotiate? And if people want to read an area of IO psychology that deals with this a lot too, but not necessarily in money terms, they can look at what’s called the job crafting literature. And so, job crafting will show you different opportunities that you have to negotiate and it’s got four different categories and several of those papers. Very useful.

Where Can People Find You?

31:24 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for that tip. And speaking of, you know, where to go more, can you just mention again where people can find you if they want to hear more from you?

31:31 Abby: Sure. So, other than my Udemy course on negotiating your funding for grad school and then on another for Lean Six Sigma Green Belt, which shows people how to save money, people can also go to Twitter. My handle is @rainer_abby. And then they can also go to find me on LinkedIn a lot. And it’s just Abby Rainer PhD Lean Six Sigma Black Belt on there. So, those are the main places right now that they can go.

Best Financial Advice for an Early-Career PhD

31:59 Emily: That’s excellent. Thank you so much. And I always conclude my interviews with this question, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we touched on today in the interview, or it can be something completely different.

32:13 Abby: I would say that my best financial advice would be, and one of my early advisors told me this as well, is that if you do anything regarding finance, make sure to get it in writing and to make sure it’s in very clear writing. Because sometimes especially if you’re in a company or in grad school, people will promise you things like working on projects or grant money, but they might not be very upfront about it, or very clear as to when you’ll get that money, how, and so forth. I break a lot of this down in my Udemy training on funding for grad school, but just make sure that you get everything–the who, what, when, where, why and how–very clear, because you want to know exactly where your money’s coming from, why you were getting it, how it’s going to be dispersed to you.

32:56 Abby: And if you need to return part of that for any reason, like if you’re writing a grant, how you do that. Just so that everybody is very clear about what expectations are and there’s no fuzzy area regarding what needs to be done and by who.

33:09 Emily: Yeah, I think that’s excellent advice. And it’s also not even necessarily people being like underhanded and like purposefully leading you on or whatever. Sometimes people are just forgetful. And especially, you know, like in graduate school, faculty members, they’ve got a lot on their plates, so it really is better for all parties to be really clear and put it in writing, as you said so that everyone’s on the same page about what’s going to happen and when and so forth. So, thank you so much for that advice. And thank you for this interview, Abby.

33:36 Abby: Yeah. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And I hope that people find this very useful because I didn’t know any of this before grad school or my time in academia. And some of it, I didn’t even know before my time in industry, but now that I’ve kind of been in both worlds, I see a lot of things that maybe I wouldn’t have before. And they can do that, too. It’s not just, you have to have a background in finance. You can do it regardless of where you’re from.

33:58 Emily: Absolutely. Negotiation is a topic that I don’t know as much as I would like to know about it. And so I’m highly interested in getting more of this content out to my audience. So, thank you so much for providing it.

34:08 Abby: You’re very welcome. Thank you. I appreciate you having me and hope everybody does well.

Outtro

34:13 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode, register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How Work Experience Outside Academia Can Bolster Your Academic and Non-Academic Career

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Gillian Hayes, the Vice Provost for Graduate Studies and Dean of the Graduate Division at UC Irvine. Throughout her career as a computer scientist, Gillian has moved back and forth between roles in academia and industry; she argues that the division between the two is more porous than is commonly perceived inside academia and should become even more so for PhDs. Gillian consulted and completed internships as a PhD student and engaged in an even broader range of side hustles as a faculty member. We discuss the real and perceived barriers to side work that PhD trainees encounter in other disciplines. We conclude with why PhD trainees should consider non-academic careers and how to prepare for them.

Links Mentioned

non academic work experience

Teaser

00:00 Gillian: They’re not linear. People take all kinds of curving paths and I would very much like to see the university and academia in general, be a sort of lifelong learning and scholarship partner to people, for moments when they’re both in and out of where we are. Academia will always be here. Go do interesting things, come back. Let’s reconnect. And let’s find ways that we can make those boundaries a little bit more porous.

Introduction

00:32 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode six and today my guest is Dr. Gillian Hayes, the Vice Provost for Graduate Studies and Dean of the Graduate Division at UC Irvine. Throughout her career as a computer scientist, Gillian has moved back and forth between roles in academia and industry. She argues that the division between the two is more porous than is commonly perceived inside academia and should become even more so for PhDs. Gillian consulted and completed internships as a PhD student and engaged in an even broader range of side work as a faculty member, and we discussed the real and perceived barriers to side work that PhD trainees encounter in other disciplines. Don’t miss a minute of this fascinating conversation recorded in February, 2020. Without further ado. Here’s my interview with Dr. Gillian Hayes.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:31 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Gillian Hayes, who is a Vice Provost and Dean at the University of California at Irvine. We’re going to be discussing side hustling and career development, both what Gillian has done in her own professional development and how she works with students on the same subject. It’s really pleasure to have you on today, Gillian. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to our audience?

01:55 Gillian: Sure. Thanks so much, Emily. I’m so glad to be able to be with you all today. I think you’re doing a wonderful service for our students. Just some quick background on me. My training is actually as a computer scientist. Both my undergraduate and PhD work was in computer science. I have a lot of background in working in industry and other places that I’m sure we’re going to talk about later. And the bulk of my research is actually focused on how do we help people who may not be included in the tech world, normally — so kids, underrepresented groups, elderly individuals — how do we help them get involved in the design process and really make responsible, ethical technologies. Here at UCI, since September, I have taken on the role of Vice Provost of Grad Education and Dean of the Graduate Division, which is a very long, convoluted way of saying that I get to be in charge of all the grad students here on campus and help them be as successful as they can be.

02:54 Emily: Yeah. So one big component of that is not only academic success, but success in their future careers. Obviously it reflects very well on your university and program if people go on to have careers success.

Career Path: Grad School to Faculty

03:06 Emily: Let’s start talking a little bit more about your own personal journey. Can you talk us through the work experience that you had prior to graduate school, if any, and then the side hustling that you did during graduate school?

03:18 Gillian: Yeah, absolutely. I should confess, I’m the child of two academics. Both have doctorates, were professors, so I understood academia in a way that I think, it’s important to contextualize the kind of privilege that comes with that. I think I always knew I wanted to go do a doctorate at some point, but beyond that, I was deeply confused when I finished undergraduate and I didn’t know what to do. And I did like all people who don’t know what to do and I went and worked for Deloitte, and sort of got the basic training of how do you be a consultant? How do you be a professional out in the world? I then worked for another company called Avanade, which was a spin-off of Accenture and Microsoft at the time, and just spent a lot of time learning the basics of being a professional before I went back to grad school. Then, while I was in grad school, I also continued to work. I’ve sort of, throughout my career, had this one foot in academia, one foot in industry kind of life. I worked for both Intel and IBM in internships. I also had a side gig driving the golf cart that serves people beer at a wonderful golf course in Georgia called Chateau Alon, which is probably my favorite job that I had in grad school. And then did some additional consulting for a company called Roundarch. So that was sort of all what I was doing while I was in grad school and before grad school, and I think they were all great experiences and can’t recommend it all enough.

Side Hustling During Grad School

04:44 Emily: Yeah. Let’s take a pause there because I think you were in not only a unique position because of your familial upbringing, but also because of your field, computer science, which is so highly employable with just a bachelor’s. Maybe the most of any academic field of any of my guests. So you got some great jobs right after undergrad, and then also continued to side hustle in graduate school. Now I’ve noticed — this is anecdotal, you can tell me if this has been in your observation as well — that computer science is the field that is maybe tied with engineering, but most likely to allow internships and encourage internships and other kinds of consulting and side work during graduate school. So there’s a very big, in my opinion, cultural difference between computer science and perhaps engineering, and then like the biological sciences, the humanities. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

05:37 Gillian: Yeah. I think that’s a great observation, Emily, and it’s actually something I didn’t even realize was unique until I became a professor because I just thought, well, of course that’s what you would do. You go off to industry. It’s very much encouraged. It’s very much a part of the culture. There are industrial research labs, which I think is a piece that helps alot. So when you talk about interning as a PhD student in computer science or information science or other related fields, you’re typically going to a company that’s going to allow you, and in fact, encourage you to publish the work that you do while you’re there. And so not only are you making lots of money, typically more money in the summer, then you’ll make throughout the entire rest of the year, working at the university, but you’re also doing it in a way that advances your career and helps you publish and helps you build a network with researchers outside of the Academy. And I do think that you’re right, that’s quite unique, although growing a little bit more in other fields, but certainly not to the extent that you see in computing.

06:35 Emily: Yeah. And I don’t mean at all to set this up, like this can only happen inside computer science and never happens elsewhere. I just think that, yeah, in other disciplines, we need to take a page out of what’s going on inside computer science and engineering. And maybe it’s not formal internships, like maybe the structure isn’t quite there yet inside academia to allow for that. Like you said, maybe there aren’t publishing opportunities outside of academia in other fields, the way there possibly is in computer science, but I just think that people in other disciplines, it helps to open your mind a little bit to what’s possible in terms of internships or, you also mentioned consulting, like, can you elaborate a little bit more about that? These kinds of things that are potentially possible, even for people in other fields, if they seek out the opportunities. It might not be presented to them in the way that it is inside computer science, but doesn’t mean it’s not there.

07:21 Gillian: Yeah, I think that’s a great point. What I typically hear from faculty who are worried about their students interning, and this is true by the way, within computer science as well. There are some faculty who don’t like their students to intern, although it’s much more rare than other disciplines. But what I typically hear is, “well, how are they going to get their work done? How are they going to finish their dissertation?” All of those kinds of things. What I have seen in my career, and I’m actually trying to collect the data right now to do a study on this at UCI, to see if we can see if my anecdotal experience holds out across more people, is that actually, not interning or interning it doesn’t slow you down or speed you at particularly much. I did three internships at anywhere from three to five months while I was in graduate school and still finished in five years and did not have a master’s going in. And that’s not to say that I’m somehow special or so fast and so wonderful. But actually what I think is happening is you give your brain a little break from the dissertation and it’s amazing how much more quickly you can actually work on it.

08:25 Gillian: When I see students, and I do have them here, who they can’t intern, they can’t go away for whatever reason, perhaps they have family obligations or other things, and they’re not going to just move to the Bay area for the summer, things like that. Those students they’re not any faster. They really aren’t. And what I see them doing is churning a little bit, and really thinking through their dissertation almost too much. So I would encourage people in any field to seek out those consulting opportunities, even if it’s just do something for a few hours a week, write copy for somebody. Do some beautiful graphic design, if you’re an artist. Do some statistics. I mean, the amazing thing is how much people out in industry need consultants to just do basic statistical analyses, which most of our students in both the behavioral and physical sciences are very skilled in doing. Give your brain that break away from the dissertation and I actually think it speeds you up.

09:25 Emily: Yeah, I actually really agree. I did not intern or anything where the long monotony of the six years I spent in graduate school was not broken up by periods of fresh, different work in any way. That is one of my semi regrets of that time. I want to throw another like possibility in here, not just internships, not just consulting, but something that may be a little bit more palatable to academics, which is a fellowship. Doing a professional fellowship is also sometimes possible and may be something that your advisor is more likely to look favorably upon than some of these other kinds of work. For example, after I finished graduate school, I did a three month science policy fellowship at the National Academies in DC. That fellowship is available to current graduate students, as well as recently graduated PhDs. That’s just another kind of thing you can consider. I had a previous interview, which I’ll link in the show notes with Vicky Johnson from Pro fellow. She runs a database where you can look for these kinds of opportunities for professional fellowships, as well as fellowships that might fund you. Go check that out if you’re looking for something, something else to do that’s going to give you this wider network, this different kinds of experience to stimulate your brain in a different way than just the research you’ve been doing.

10:37 Emily: Okay, so very exciting what you were able to do, what other students could potentially be able to do. Can you say a few more words about how these opportunities for side hustling and interning that you took in graduate school, built your career and set you up for your post PhD job or jobs?

10:54 Gillian: Absolutely. They’re really essential and are a big part of my career story. One of my mentors at Intel actually wound up being on my thesis committee in the end and has continued to be a really wonderful mentor to me throughout my time. Lots of other interns — one of the things that’s great about interning is you meet a bunch of other people who are PhD students at other universities, or sometimes undergraduate or master’s students as well, and they become a part of your professional network. Often companies really roll out the red carpet for interns over the summer. And so you’re going to these fun events and you really get to know a lot of other people. That becomes a really essential part of who you are 20 years later, and I look back now and people that I met as part of an internship that aren’t in my field, that I never would have met otherwise, are some of my good friends now and they’re also professional colleagues.

11:51 Gillian: The other thing I would say though, is it’s not just the industry or the research internships or the fellowships or the kinds of things we’ve been talking about. I sort of joked earlier that my favorite job in grad school was driving the beer cart at the golf course. And I think sometimes we can tend to look down on those kinds of jobs or feel like, well, the only reason you’re doing that is to make a little extra money because we don’t pay grad students enough. Sure. Those things are probably all true, but it’s also the case that I drove around in the most beautiful setting you can imagine and brought all of my books and journal articles with me and parked on the side and read. And again, just got a head break. Just got out of my home, got out of my lab, all of those places. Meet interesting people. You never know who you might get to know and think about in these places. So whatever this sort of side hustle is, I think it’s really good for your brain and for your mental health and for your network.

Side Hustling Post-Grad School

12:49 Emily: So in the jobs that you’ve had after your PhD, have you continued to work on the side and still develop and maintain those networks? Or have you been an academic and solely focused on that?

12:02 Gillian: I am apparently not able to focus on one thing at a time ever. I think that’s okay in academia, actually. It’s part of what makes life so interesting. But no, I’ve absolutely continued to do variety of side hustles. So one of the things is, I took a break. As soon as I got my shiny, new assistant professor job, I went and went back to Roundarch and worked as a consultant again, and just really got to…I always talk about it as cleaning my brain. I was in the slog of writing this dissertation and it’s so painful. You finally get it over the line, and back then we had to measure the margins and do all of this painful stuff, and turned it in and went and got to fly around and talk to people about building websites for a while. That felt really good.

13:53 Gillian: Then I remembered why I left consulting in the first place, because I got kind of bored with it, and got to start my assistant professor position. That cycle has been really important throughout my career. I’ve continued to do consulting on the side, in terms of both technology-related consulting and user experience, and so on. But also because of my research in the autism space, I’ve been able to consult with a lot of folks in K-12 and in special education and help shape where the state of California is going in terms of our care and support of people with autism and related conditions. That’s been valuable both in terms of feeding my research and really understanding what’s out there practically, but also in terms of feeding my own ability to exercise different parts of my brain.

14:40 Gillian: I would also say, academics, they won’t always refer to it as a side hustle — we like to be very pure — but writing books is basically the ultimate side hustle, as far as I’m concerned. We get judged on it because it’s part of the tenure and promotion process. But if you write the right book, that generates all kinds of interesting things — speaking opportunities, consulting opportunities, other things that I think can continue to be important no matter what field that you’re in.

15:11 Gillian: I took it a little further than most in terms of side hustling, which is I started out doing a little bit of consulting for a couple of founders that I knew well from a startup and wound up running the entire company. That’s probably more than most people will do, but I did spend a couple of years as a CEO. What I’ll say there is sometimes your side hustle becomes your main gig for a little while. I took some leave from the university so that I could do that. And I would say to people, if that happens, go for it. You can take a leave of absence. So often people think, “Oh, I can’t get off the grad student treadmill” or “I can’t get off the tenure treadmill” or whatever. You can take a leave of absence for a couple of years and academia will always be here. It’s obviously not for everyone, but I really value the time that I had being able to run a small company and watching them now at a distance under someone else’s leadership and continuing to excel is so pleasurable for me.

16:10 Emily: I’m really glad that you brought up there can be these blurred lines between what is your job as an academic and what is stuff you do on the side, because all of it can be related to your area of expertise and just expressed in different ways.

Commercial

16:28 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

How Side Hustles Are Viewed in Academia

17:14 Emily: Can you talk to me about structurally, how this has worked for you? You just mentioned you’ve taken official sounds like full time leaves of absence from your job, but do you have, for instance, like an 80% position or have you at some points to allow time for these side things or have you always been kind of a hundred percent at the job and just pursued these outside of…I don’t know, how does this work, time management wise and also official position wise?

17:42 Gillian: Yeah. So official position wise, it really depends as a grad student, it’s fairly easy to sort of zoom in and of things. I did, what’s called an off cycle internship one year and was away for fall semester. Just a matter of filing some paperwork with the university to allow me to do that. That allowed me to be at my internship for five months instead of just sort of the normal three of the summer, which was really, really valuable. It also allowed me a lot of access to people who get a little maxed out in the summertime because there’s so many interns around. I would definitely recommend thinking about being creative with those kinds of things.

18:19 Gillian: Many universities, even if you’re a full time, faculty member have consulting allowances. You can maybe consult X number of hours per year and the university’s not bothered by it. If you do more than that, then they’ll typically want you to take some sort of reduced time or leave of absence, things like that. I would encourage people to really find out what the rules are at their different universities. It may be highly variable. Then the final thing is, my mother always says to me, if you don’t ask, you know, what the answer is. I really tried to take that to heart, and when I was starting working at AVIAA, I was aware that I was also running a master’s program that I was quite attached to, and I didn’t want to let that go. I sort of sat down and tried to think about, okay, if I keep running the master’s program, teach this little bit that will go with that, and I keep supervising the PhD students I have, because you don’t let your PhD students drift, even if you go off to do something else, what does that kind of look like time-wise? I went to my Dean and my department chair and said, I’d like to take a reduced workload. So basically these are the things I’m going to do and not going to do anything else. What does that look like percentage wise? And I’ve talked to a lot of different people who’ve done this. Anywhere from they’re employed at the university 5% time to maybe they’re employed 50%, 80%. You sort of get to different levels and whatever you think is appropriate. My Dean and my Chair looked at that and said, “yeah, that seems about right, we’re good with that,” so I was able to take reduce time, but not a full leave away.

20:02 Gillian: I would just say to people, you never know if you don’t explore it. So think about it and investigate it because you may well be able to do these things, partially. I also was always very upfront with our board of directors and with the founders of the company that I was still going to be doing XYZ things affiliated with the university. And they were good with that. From all of their perspectives, the idea that I would maintain a connection with this wonderful place of scholarship that would potentially bring us excellent new hires and other kinds of people was great. On the surface of it, and before I made those requests, lots of people said to me, “Oh, you can’t do this or you can’t do that,” but I thought, well, maybe. Let’s just ask and find out. So I would encourage people to ask.

20:47 Emily: Yeah, I’m so glad you brought this up and I want to take kind of a grad student or postdoc, spin on that question. Because what I hear a lot from especially graduate students is “I’m not allowed to have a side job or a side income,” and either that’s because of the terms of the assistantship that they have, or the terms of the fellowship that they’ve accepted, or it’s just something cultural that they’ve absorbed, or maybe their advisor said something more explicitly, but I think there’s a range of like, what’s actually permitted, either legally or contractually. And of course, for international students, that’s a whole other discussion of what the visa allows, which is nothing except for like official OPT kind of stuff. But for citizens or residents in the US, can you just talk around this a little bit of is it worth asking, even if you think the answer is going to be no, look at your contract, or what?

21:44 Gillian: I think it’s always worth asking. And I’ll answer that in a couple of ways. One of them is, and I saw some really interesting research, I’ll try to dig it up and send you the link if I can find it. But essentially, if you ask grad students, what do they think their advisor wants of them? They’ll essentially say to get an R1 tenure track position, to have this like life of the mind, to be a mini version of their adviser. And then if you ask the advisors, what do they want of their students, broadly, in a very generic, hypothetical, meta kind of way, they’ll say the same. But if you ask the faculty, think about your last X number of students — I forget what it is, two, three, four, whatever — who’ve graduated with you. What do you think you want for them? Suddenly you start to see industry jobs, government jobs, community colleges, other kinds of two and four year opportunities. Not these sort of tenure track PhD granting institution kinds of jobs. And it’s because we’re sort of inculturated in a broad way to think, yes, we want to create more little faculty that look just like us. But if you think about specific students, you often recognize, well, actually their passion and their strengths lie elsewhere.

23:02 Gillian: It’s that disconnect that I think many of the students are feeling. They know that their advisor, in a broad sense wants this thing, but maybe it’s not for them. If they really open up that conversation, I think most faculty really do want to support them and be open to that. I think it’s always worth asking. Also, the truth is, if you’ve got one of those few faculty that just aren’t interested and aren’t going to want to support you, no matter what, for me, I would want to know that because maybe I need to find a different person to work with, or maybe they stay my primary supervisor, but I find some additional mentorship on the side that can help me get to the places I need to go and that I want to go. I think it’s always worth asking.

23:46 Gillian: The other thing I would say is you can interpret contracts in all kinds of ways, and I’m not an employment lawyer, but what I can say is even if officially our ruling, as the University of California, is that people don’t have jobs outside, we don’t own your life. If I worked at Google or I worked at Deloitte again, or I worked wherever, they don’t get to tell me that I can’t go out on a Saturday morning and be a barista, if I want to. It’s the same here. We don’t own your personal time and your free time. So if it’s not disrupting your job here as a grad student researcher or your job here as a TA, I don’t see that we have a whole lot of standing to tell you that you can’t do it.

24:30 Emily: I’m really glad to have your perspective on, because I think this is something that students…I’ll call it a limiting belief. Like it’s a limiting belief that students have. I can’t, I’m not allowed to have a side job, have a side income. And I, like you, think it’s more important to examine this spirit of that rule or that cultural norm, because really the point is you want to be making progress on your dissertation. You want to put really good energy towards that on a consistent basis. And yeah, your advisor, or you, probably don’t want to be leaving at 5:00 PM every day to go to your second job as a whatever. But there’s so many jobs that you can have now in the internet age that you can do on your own schedule. That’s flexible. It’s not going to interfere with your work. As we talked about earlier, that will give you different kinds of energy and different kinds of stimulation that you aren’t getting through your primary position. I do like to think about the spirit of this. Like, is it interfering with your work? Does are advisor even really need to know about it, if they would never find out naturally. Now for these professional development opportunities, and especially something like interning, obviously you need to involve your advisor, potentially some other people in that conversation, but for a side gig, that’s a few hours a week, maybe they don’t need to know, if it doesn’t interfere.

25:44 Gillian: And you know, you never know. It’s not just that they don’t necessarily interfere, but they can also be argumentative in ways that you could never expect. Actually here’s a great example. I went to grad school with a woman who was a quilter on the side, made absolutely beautiful quilts. And I think sometimes she sold them, but just gorgeous. It takes a lot of time to be a quilter, but it didn’t interfere with her work. In the end, she actually developed this really incredible piece of software that helps teach children geometry, using quilting as a metaphor because of this thing she was doing on the side. Now, if someone had told her stop quilting, it takes up too much time, then she never would have done what she did for her dissertation.

26:29 Emily: Yeah, it is so, so beneficial to have these other areas of your life to give you not only balance, but to help you think about your work in different ways, and just to be like a whole person. You can still be a whole person during your PhD training, while on the tenure track, it’s all encouraged.

Non-Academic Careers

26:44 Emily: So let’s pivot a little bit to talking about non-academic careers. You’ve obviously had an academic career, as well as nonacademic aspects of your career. How can students who, as we were talking about earlier are statistically unlikely to end up in a tenure track position, even if they want to keep their hat in the ring for that sort of thing, how can they simultaneously prepare for a career outside of academia?

27:10 Gillian: Yeah, that’s a great question. The first thing I’ll say is, I think we need an educated workforce and an educated society, and the idea of having loads and loads of people with PhDs that work in places that are not universities is really appealing to me. I think it’s good for the world. I just want to sort of admit to my positionality there. But what I’ll tell you is I know a lot of CEOs of both big and small companies. I know a lot of executive leaders and they come to me and they ask me, where can they find people who can quickly digest an enormous amount of information, write up interesting, analytical thoughts about that. Talk about it with other people, teach it to them, explain it to them and figure out what we do next. And I’m like, that’s someone with a PhD. They’re looking all over business for people with those skills. It’s exactly what we teach, no matter what your field. It’s absolutely the case that the market needs it.

28:10 Gillian: Now we have some work to do to translate and help people understand and help people be marketable and all of those things, but that kind of work and the kind of critical thinking skills that people develop doing a doctorate is absolutely what the highest levels of leadership in the corporate world need desperately. Obviously also in government and nonprofits and other places like that. What I would say to people is just be thinking all the time about how do I translate what I do into something that other people can understand. And I spend a lot of time with people who want to translate an academic CV into a more typical resume, just helping doing that translation work. I would encourage people to seek out people like myself, who’ve had these different kinds of careers. I’m happy for podcast listeners, you can feel free to reach out to me. I might not respond right away, but I’m happy to look at things, and just figure out how do you explain yourself out into the world? That’s the first thing I would say.

29:12 Emily: I actually want to jump in there and plug a colleague of mine, Beyond the Professoriate, Jen Polk and Maren Wood’s business. This is the kind of space that you can join and learn these types of skills, see examples of how other people have made exits from academia into other interesting careers, and have community with other people who are going through the same process. Beyond Prof is one of the places where you can do that.

29:37 Gillian: Absolutely. I direct people to Beyond Prof all the time. That’s actually a better resource than me. They will respond to you more quickly. Definitely check those out. The other thing I would say is, and I’m going to pick on you a tiny bit, Emily, is even using that phrasing of exiting the university, right? One of the things that I sort of bounce up and down on a lot around here is the language of alt-ac, and post-ac, and academic exits, and these kinds of things. I don’t want to take away from people’s feelings. If that’s a helpful way for people to express what they’re going through, then by all means, go ahead, but we don’t have that same language for undergraduates who finish an undergraduate degree. We don’t have that same language for lawyers who finish a JD or medical doctors who finish an MD or any of these other folks.

30:30 Gillian: One of the things that I think is important in culture change, and we need to do this internally at the university, for sure, but also I’d like to do it everywhere is to say careers, they’re not linear. People take all kinds of curving paths and I would very much like to see the university and academia in general be a sort of lifelong learning and scholarship partner to people for moments when they’re both in and out of where we are. Now, I recognize I’m in a place of privilege. This is a much easier thing to do in my field than in others. That is what it is. But I think we need to start with changing some of our language and some of our culture around this notion of, if you don’t get that tenure track job or get that right postdoc right after you’ve finished, that the world is ending for you. No, academia will always be here. Go do interesting things, come back, let’s reconnect, and let’s find ways that we can make those boundaries a little bit more porous.

31:28 Emily: Yeah. I really appreciate that. I totally agree with you. I’ll just leave it at that.

31:34 Emily: Sort of along those lines, what about de-stigmatizing these nonacademic careers? You’ve just mentioned language changes, but are there any other ways that people inside and outside academia cannot be looking down on non-academic careers as the consolation prize for not getting a tenure track position, which for the record is definitely not how I feel about them.

31:59 Gillian: Yeah. Well, you know, I will tell you, again, this is a case where being in computing or engineering is a bit easier. My students go off and make two to three times what I will ever make, and more if they get the right stock options, and money goes a long way for de-stigmatizing all kinds of things. That’s one thing to just kind of know, but I think that’s also true in other fields. There’s lots of ways in which you can have a very healthy, productive, happy, and financially successful career outside of the Academy, and that’s an important thing for people to recognize, and to say that you’re not selling out or failing or any of these other things, if you choose to take that kind of path.

32:43 Gillian: The other piece, I think is academics, faculty tend to the people who’ve been really successful in a very particular model of existing. We’re really good at school, the way school was built. The same is true, by the way in K-12. People who become K-12 teachers are often people who were really good at school, and so it’s very hard to reform a system that’s run by people who are really good at that system. We sort of self select for this reinforcing behavior. Some of it is us taking good, long, hard looks at ourselves. And you start to see this, I think, in the undergraduate and master’s curricular reforms that we’re starting to see, where people are recognizing, hey, maybe Sage on the Stage isn’t the best way to teach. And maybe we should be thinking about active learning. Or in the graduate curriculum for master’s students, maybe we should be thinking about modular learning. That you can do pieces of it now and another piece in a couple of years and so on, and put together a collection of experiences that make the right professional degree for you.

33:50 Gillian: I think that gives me hope that if we’re starting to make reforms in K-12, and we’re making reforms in undergrad, we’re making reforms in our professional degrees, it’s only to some degree a matter of time until we can make some reforms in the PhD world and help people to understand that there are different ways to complete a doctorate, and there are different ways to have a career afterwards. It does take activity. It does take bringing back. We have an alumni speaker series here that we bring back people who did their PhDs here, who have exciting, really cool careers, running science museums, or doing policy or running a startup. And we need to show off more of those success stories too.

34:29 Emily: Yeah, I do see, as I visit universities and speak there for the financial stuff, I’m often included in their conversations around this sort of thing. Well, Emily, you’re in entrepreneurship, how do we encourage our students to consider this path as well? And they show me what they’re already doing. It’s percolating. The idea is there. It’s popping up different places. I don’t know how much it still needs to be included actually in the standard path to doctorate rather than just some side extra thing you might engage in. That would be really great.

Best Financial Advice for PhDs

35:01 Emily: Gillian, I love the ideas you’ve presented in this interview. Thank you so much for giving it. I’m just going to conclude with a question that I ask of all of my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? Could be related to something we’ve talked about today, or it could be something entirely other,

35:19 Gillian: That is a great question, and I thought this was your hardest question, by the way, that I really had to think about. But I think the first thing I would say is get through whatever you’re going through as fast as you can. You will never recover financially from being out of the workforce for however many years it takes you to do a PhD, even if you are the fastest PhD student in the world. The faster you can go time to degree, get done. I always say the only good dissertation is a done dissertation. Get into the workforce as quickly as you can. And the same thing is true for tenure, or for becoming a full professor, for becoming whatever. Yes, these things take time, but just get through them and don’t worry about making it perfect. Each of these things in academia, it’s a pass/fail exam, so pass and move on to the next thing. That’s the first thing I would say.

36:15 Gillian: The second is make sure your summers are paid. Whether you’re a junior faculty member or a PhD student or whatever, that’s a quarter of your year. And I’m always amazed at how many people take it completely unpaid. There are a variety of ways to get it paid. Whether it’s summer teaching, writing grants, internships, consulting, any of these side hustles we’ve been talking about, but the idea that you would lose a quarter of your income at a very young age, when people are in grad school, postdoc-ing, or as assistant professors, those are your prime earning years, and you’re setting yourself up for the future. So figure out a way to get your summers paid. You work for 12 months, so you should get paid for 12 months, is my general thing.

37:00 Gillian: Then the last thing I would say is be mindful of what free labor you give away. Academia is just chock-full, and I know you’ve talked about this on your podcast before, of free labor. We review for free. We give talks for free. We write for free. And that’s okay. That’s a certain amount of the culture and we should be doing certain things voluntarily, but some things you really should start thinking about getting paid for. And you just need to think about that before you decide, am I going to give up however many hours of my time to this? Well, your time is really, really valuable, so treat it like it’s really valuable.

37:36 Emily: I think it goes back to a point you made earlier, which is just asking. If you’re being asked to do some special thing, like speaking, for example, if you were going to agree to do it for free, like you were just talking about why not just ask, Hey, what can you give me an exchange? Pay, expense reimbursement, some other thing of value to you. Just inquire and know that you’re worthwhile. This goes to imposter syndrome as well. Within academia, we tend to feel that we’re not special. Our skills are not that valuable. Everyone else has the same skills and the same knowledge. That is definitely not true, first of all, even inside academia, but definitely, definitely outside, you will be seen as a unique, special thing, as you were talking about earlier, with your PhD and the skills and knowledge that come along with it.

38:19 Gillian: Absolutely. And every time I say to people, whatever number you’re thinking in your head that you’re worth to give that talk or to consult on that project, double it, and you might be close to the number that’s actually what you’re worth.

38:32 Emily: Yeah. Great, great advice again. The worst they’re going to say is no, or maybe they’ll try to negotiate you down, but if you were going to do it for free or little anyway, hey, that’s not too bad. Gillian, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I really, really enjoyed this conversation.

38:47 Gillian: Thank you, Emily. I did as well, and I look forward to hearing many more wonderful podcasts from you in the future.

38:52 Emily: Oh, thank you so much.

Outtro

38:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.