Personal Finance for PhDs

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This Behavioral Finance Expert Gives Incredible Career and Financial Advice to PhDs

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Daniel Crosby, an author and expert in behavioral finance. Upon completing his PhD in clinical psychology, Daniel realized for the first time that an academic salary would not afford him the lifestyle he wanted. He instead pivoted to translating the academic research in behavioral finance for working financial advisors, and he currently serves as the Chief Behavioral Officer for Brinker Capital. Daniel shares how he’s applied the principles of behavioral finance in his own life and specific career and financial advice for early-career PhDs, particularly those exiting PhD training.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

PhD behavioral finance

Teaser

00:00 Daniel: And rather than saying, “Oh, I’m a PhD in psychology, so let me do PhD in psychology things”, I thought, well, I know to have great conversations with people. I know how to run a training. I know how to read human emotion and human behavior and all of these things, when you conceive of them as building blocks, you can repurpose those building blocks in different ways and create a host of opportunities for yourself.

Introduction

00:34 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode eleven and today my guest is Dr. Daniel Crosby, an author and expert in behavioral finance. Upon completing his PhD in clinical psychology, Daniel realized, for the first time, that an academic salary would not afford him the lifestyle he wanted, so he pivoted to translating the academic research in payroll finance for working financial advisors. Daniel shares how he’s applied the principles of behavioral finance in his own life and gives specific career and financial advice and encouragement for early career PhDs, particularly those about to finish their PhD training. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Daniel Crosby.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:23 Emily: I have the pleasure today of hosting Dr. Daniel Crosby on the podcast. He is a certified expert in behavioral finance. I’m really, really pleased that he agreed to come on. And Daniel, will you please introduce yourself a little bit further and tell the listeners about the fantastic career you’ve had?

01:41 Daniel: Great to be here. Thank you for having me. I am the chief behavioral officer at Brinker Capital, which is a multibillion dollar asset manager based outside of Philly. There’s not many chief behavioral officers in the world, I guess, so by way of explanation, what I do is I create training, tools, and technology that help people make better decisions with their money. I am a clinical psychologist by education, but really haven’t spent any of my professional career in a clinical setting. I quickly learned in grad school that I loved thinking deeply about why people do the things they do, but I didn’t love working in a medical setting. I’ve looked for business applications of the thing that I studied, and I know you know what it’s like to pivot, so my career has been wild and crazy, but it’s been a great one.

Going from Psychology PhD to Chief Behavioral Officer

02:39 Emily: Can you take us back? Tell us more about your education and at what point you decided that you weren’t actually going to go that traditional, clinical route with your degrees?

02:50 Daniel: My undergrad was in psychology. Loved it. I’m the son of a financial advisor, so I went into school thinking I would study finance and be a financial advisor. Took some general ed courses in psychology and just absolutely fell in love, knew that that’s what I wanted to do, started my PhD three days after I finished my bachelor’s. I was really just on a good path to get going with this. But about three years into my doctoral program, I had just kind of had enough. I don’t think I’m wired to listen to 40 hours a week of heavy stuff. It’s hard to be that empathetic. It’s hard to not let that bleed into your own life and your own wellness, and I was just really taking my client’s problems home with me, candidly. And I said, you know, this is just a lot. The final nail in the coffin for me though, I was still sort of on the fence as I was wrapping up my PhD, I had an inkling that I would like to apply this in a business setting, but wasn’t quite sure how, so I interviewed for a dual appointment position at a local university, which would have been half teaching, half counseling and the pay was so bad. I got offered the job and the pay was just so ridiculously bad that when I sat down and did the math with my wife, I was just, there’s no way this can work. I think it’s instructive that I, as the son of a financial advisor, someone who is interested in finance, finished an entire PhD, kind of never doing the math on how the thing I was studying would put food on my table. That’s sort of an embarrassing, but true story, is to get to the end of this road that I was passionate about and then go, “Oh, well geez, what am I going to do with this?” So then I was sort of left scrambling with how can I actually make a living at this thing I’ve just spent eight years studying.

05:05 Emily: I think that’s going to be a very relatable story to a lot of people in the audience of hearing that advice, follow your passion and doing it, and doing it at a high level, and getting to the end of it and saying, “well, now what do I do?” In your case, it was because the dual position that you applied for was not attractive, financially. That could be the reason, certainly for people in the audience, why they don’t continue on the expected career path. But for many people who want to go into academia, it’s just that the jobs aren’t there. That’s the main problem is that there’s just no jobs to be had or very, very few, and so they end up having to look elsewhere. So super, super relatable story there. Would you mind me asking, was your graduate degree, did you go into debt for that or was that paid for, was it a combination?

05:52 Daniel: It was paid for. PhD programs in psychology are very selective, they’re very small, so there were only like five people in my cohort. If you get in, it’s paid for through assistantships. Then, through nothing but luck, I had parents who were in a position to support me in other ways. My parents kept the food on the table and a roof over my head, and the tuition itself was paid for, so I came out with no debt.

06:26 Emily: I see. So when you were sitting down to do that salary calculation, it wasn’t debt that was necessarily causing your initial needed number to rise, but rather just simply the cost of living and supporting your family and so forth.

06:39 Daniel: Yeah. It wasn’t debt. It was just like, “wow, I’m going to work forever.” It was crazy because it paid less than a kindergarten teacher. You go teach at a high level, at a college, go to all this school and you should have just taught first grade. The pay was much better, if you can believe it, and I think you probably can. That was just a shock to me. I had never really put pen to paper about how the jobs that were available to me would coincide with the kind of life I wanted to live. Then the other thing is, as you said, so many of the jobs — I was lucky to get a job offer in my hometown — but you know, many, many times you’re forced to move to someplace you don’t want to live or somewhere very out of the way to start your career. And that’s its own set of trade-offs, certainly.

07:34 Emily: When you decided, “okay, that’s not a viable route over there, I have to pivot and do something else,” ten or so years later, you’ve come to this point where you’re the chief behavioral officer somewhere.

What is Behavior Finance?

Emily: I want to hear more about what behavioral finance is and did that exist as a field when you came out or have you been part of developing that? What’s been the transition both for your career and also for that field over that time?

08:00 Daniel: Great question. I got out and I said, “look, I need to pivot to something that is a little better for my sanity and is also a little better paying.” I began to explore jobs in organizational behavior, organizational psychology, behavioral economics, behavioral finance, and really, no one would take a chance on me because this is 2008 and the economy’s not exactly fantastic. I’m out there, 29 years old looking, looking for a job and I’m applying for jobs in fields where I candidly have no experience, because I have this PhD in clinical psychology and they go, “well, this is, you know, industrial psychology or organizational psychology.” And so I got a lot of doors slammed in my face. And really it was just luck. I applied at an organizational behavior firm where the boss, the founder of this firm had a clinical background and had sort of made his way in the world. My story resonated with him and he saw enough potential there to take a chance. Again, I think anyone who has any modicum of career success can point to times in their career where they just got lucky. That was certainly one for me, where he saw himself in me, took a chance on me and knew what it was like to be in my position, because I just wasn’t getting a look at most places because I didn’t have the right sort of psychology background.

09:47 Daniel: In terms of the field of behavioral finance, behavioral finance is just sort of the study of finance that incorporates the messiness of human beings. A lot of standard financial and econometric models are based on simplifications of human behavior that make humans look more rational than they really are. Behavioral finance is just finance with human irrationality factored in and talking about the way that we make quirky decisions with our money. This was a field that was around. Not too many years later they gave out a couple of Nobel prizes for it. The good thing for me, sort of the niche that I found, was there were people out there charging $200,000 an appearance. These Nobel prize winning folks were out there charging a $100,000 to $200,000 every time they gave a speech and multimillion dollar contracts for consulting, but there was no one that was more affordable and there was no one that was more applied. There just weren’t many people doing more reasonable applied behavioral finance work and taking these great ideas that these folks had come up with and taking them out of the ivory tower and putting them on the desks of everyday people or everyday financial advisers. That’s sort of where my niche — my niche became being the more affordable, more practical options.

11:23 Emily: But it sounds like what you were doing was really taking academic research and translating into what can be then used on the ground by, as you said, advisors and perhaps other people, is that right?

11:35 Daniel: Yeah, that’s right. I mean that’s been sort of the trajectory of my whole career is as an intermediary between people who are much smarter than me and people who haven’t been exposed to these ideas. I sort of view myself as a translator to take these ideas, this research, and make it speak to the lives of everyday people.

11:57 Emily: This actually reminds me, from what you were saying, of my physics training, which is what I did my undergraduate degree in, where you basically assume that everything is a sphere, so the calculations are actually manageable because if you actually look at what things are, real shapes and so forth, it’s just the math is completely beyond what’s possible. Of course, not everything is a sphere, but you have to assume they are to make the math work. It reminds me of that.

12:23 Emily: I am curious if anything in your personal history — going through the PhD process and then, and then coming out as an early career PhD, and this job search and so forth — has any of that informed the work that you’re doing now within behavioral finance? Any of that personal stuff informing that?

12:41 Daniel: I don’t think so, really. I don’t think that really informs a ton of what I do from day to day. It probably informs my parenting more than my work. I have three young children and my wife and I talked, that as we raise them, I’m just trying to give them a more expansive look at the world of work and maybe a more detailed look at finding the sweet spot between following your passion and doing work that gives you the kind of life that you want. Because one thing that my studies have shown me is that we all measure what normal is on a relative basis. This is true of everything from mental health to wealth. Normal for you is financially is just kind of what you grew up with, so I think you need to be candid with your children about how they grew up and what normal is and what normal isn’t. So yeah, it probably impacts the way that I parent more than more than anything else.

13:51 Emily: Gotcha. What about the reverse ways, from taking what you’ve been learning about personal finance and behavioral finance since you pivoted into that field? Have you taken any of what you learned and applied it in your personal life or were you already kinda there with what you grew up with your particular parents?

14:09 Daniel: Yeah. What’s interesting is I have applied a lot of what I’ve learned from behavioral finance into my own life. But one of the primary ways that I’ve done this is by knowing what I don’t know. I remember, and I think every PhD has this experience, I remember I started my program when I was 23 years old. I start this PhD in psychology, 23 years old, thinking I know everything, get out a couple of years later and I’m like, did I learn anything? I feel like I know less than I did before. I think I have more questions than answers now. Especially when what you’re studying is something as hard to get your arms around as human behavior, you never quite get good at it. One of the primary things that I’ve learned from my years of study of finance is that nobody really knows anything and that knowledge is a weak predictor of behavior. I work with a financial advisor myself. And not to toot my own horn here, but I think when it comes to knowledge of markets and things, I probably know more than my advisor, but that’s not why I pay him. I pay him to keep me out of my own way. I pay him to be a barrier between me and the sort of bad behaviors I study because I know that simple knowledge of the sort of biased, irrational poor behavior that I study is a weak predictor of doing the opposite. I know I’m no better than the next person, no matter how many books I write on the subject. I take pains to diversify, to keep my fees low and to work with someone who will keep me out of my own way.

16:01 Emily: Yeah. I think this is something that’s maybe not well understood by the public. That you may be paying an advisor for expertise — you are not necessarily, but someone else may be — but an even more important role is, as you just said, to kind of talk you off the ledge from carrying out bad behaviors that you’re inclined to do as any human naturally would. You’re specifically talking right now within the realm of investing, is that right? Or does your advisor help you with other decisions as well?

16:31 Daniel: He does help me with things around, you know, the purchase of a home. He’s sort of a sounding board for things like college savings for my kids, the purchase of a home. But I’m primarily focused on investing and investing professionally is my primary focus.

Commercial

16:53 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. As a listener of this podcast, every week you hear strategies that another PhD has used to improve their financial picture. But listening and learning does not automatically translate into action in your own financial life. If you are ready to change how you think about and handle your money, but need some help getting started, I can be of service. There are two main ways you can work with me to create and implement a financial plan tailored for you. First, I offer one-on-one financial coaching, either as a single session or a series, as you make changes over the long term. You can find out more at PFforPhDs.com/coaching. Second, I offer a group program called The Wealthy PhD that is part coaching, part course, and part community. You can find out more and join the wait list for the next time I open the program at PFforPhDs.com/wealthyPhD. I believe it’s possible to succeed with your finances at every stage of PhD training and throughout your career. Let’s figure out together how to make that happen for you. Now, back to the interview.

Human Emotions and Financial Decisions

18:08 Emily: Is there anything else that you have learned, and then applied in your own life, aside from putting a bit of distance between yourself and being able to make a fast decision?

18:18 Daniel: Well, one of the hallmarks of behavioral finances talks about overcoming emotion. A lot of what we talk about is how do we keep people from making these emotionally laden decisions, but one of the other things you learn when you’re studying human behavior is that it’s always easier to roll with a behavioral tendency than to push against it. There’s cool research that shows that people who look at a picture of their children for five seconds before making a financial decision save more, are more likely to stay the course, et cetera. Similarly, we find that people who invest in ways that are aligned with their own personal preferences around the world that they want, in terms of social issues, environmental issues, tend to be better behaved. So I’ve tried to build some emotion into my process. I’ve tried to keep the things and the people that I love at the front of my mind and central in the planning and investing process, and I’ve tried to invest in a way that’s consistent with my values, because I think that it makes it a little stickier than say owning the S&P 500. It just personalizes it a bit. I think that those are both powerful ways to make investing a little more fun, to make the investing and planning process a little more personal and to bring about some good behavior in the end as well.

19:51 Emily: I really love those suggestions. I think I’ve also, maybe in the similar vein of looking at a picture of your children, I’ve heard that if you look at a picture of yourself aged up, you make different decisions. Is that right?

20:04 Daniel: That is right. Yeah. One of the things you learn a lot about in behavioral finance is salience and salience is just the ease with which you can sort of imagine or tap into a situation. As I sit here, I’ll be 40 next week, so as I sit here at nearly 40 years of age, it’s hard for me to imagine 80 year old Daniel, right? The idea of a guy who walks with a cane and has gray hair and stuff, it feels a little remote. People have found that if you age your face, you’re basically making it a more visceral experience to imagine yourself as this 80 year old version of yourself, it brings about better behavior. Again, that’s an imperfect example of how you imbue the process with a little emotion to help you make the right decision.

20:56 Emily: I actually had a client asked me recently what I thought about the particular RoboAdvisor Ellevest and she followed that up with, well, I’m really passionate about women and empowering women and all these things that were sort of in line with Ellevest’s mission. And I said to her, well, it sounds like you’re really excited about that, so I think they’re fine and go for it. Because, as you were saying earlier, if it it lines with her values, that particular manner of investing, she’ll probably be more likely to throw more money at it, engage with it more, and have a better outcome. Is that right?

21:27 Daniel: Yeah, that is. Without speaking to the particulars of Ellevest, I don’t know all the ins and outs of it enough to say one way or the other, I have a lot of respect for Sallie Krawcheck who heads up a Ellevest. But in general, you’re more likely to contribute to, and stay the course in your women’s leadership fund than you are your S&P 500 fund because it’s personalized, it’s tailored to you and your values and, not making any promises here, but there is also research to suggest that the kind of companies folks like Ellevest seek out, companies that have better female representation on boards and things, there’s historical research to suggest that those companies have outperformed the broad market, at least historically. I think there’s every reason to try and personalize your investing to your own preferences, feel like you’re doing a little good in the world, and if that helps to animate you to stay the course or to set aside a little money, both of which are very psychologically difficult, more power.

Behavioral Finance Strategies for the PhD

22:35 Emily: Absolutely. Yeah. Another question here. We’ve started to get some insights into this behavioral finance stuff, maybe for the general population, but I’m wondering if you see that there are any personal finance pitfalls that you think PhDs might be particularly susceptible to falling into, and then what strategies might there be to not do that?

22:59 Daniel: I’ve observed — I’ll speak to psychologists, doctors of psychology in particular, but I think that this probably applies to PhDs broadly — a lot of times we get a PhD because we want deep domain-specific knowledge, right? We get into this because we love it. We want to be the best in the world at it, but almost every position needs a bit of business savvy, and I think that we have more power than we realize. I think this power takes a couple of forms. I think first of all, you need the power to negotiate a salary. That first job you get is more predictive of your ultimate wealth than just about anything else, because it benchmarks every subsequent salary conversation. Being comfortable negotiating that first salary — I remember that first job, you feel lucky just to be there. You beat out 20 other talented people to get the offer, but don’t be afraid to know your worth and to negotiate that salary. I would say PhDs need a little business training, because we have this deep domain-specific knowledge, but we don’t know, sometimes I feel like, how to do more practical things. I think get a little bit of business knowledge.

Daniel: Then a third thing and I would say the thing that has probably served me best in my career, financially, is to just think creatively about your role. If I had stayed on the prescribed path of being a dual-appointed college counselor, I would make a fraction of what I make now. Because I thought expansively about the things that I learned in school, and rather than saying, “Oh, I’m a PhD in psychology, so let me do PhD in psychology things” I thought, well, I know to have great conversations with people. I know how to run a training. I know how to read human emotion and human behavior and all of these things, when you conceive of them as building blocks, you can repurpose those building blocks in different ways and create a host of opportunities for yourself. Rather than thinking about one prescribed path, think about your education as a series of building blocks, a series of competencies that you can repurpose in any number of ways to do a host of different things. Finally, I would say don’t be scared to get out of academia. Because when I was in academia, you’re a face in the crowd, you’re one PhD among many. But when you get out in the real world, when you get out in the business world, you’re special and people respect your expertise in a way that they might not necessarily in a university setting. Lots to be said for a university setting of course, but I think don’t be scared to get out there to try something new and to know your worth.

Dealing With an Income Increase Post-PhD

26:20 Emily: Such wonderful advice and you put that so well. Thank you. I’m wondering if you have any advice for a person in this situation, which is something that you went through, which is a person who is about to come on a large income increase? They’ve been in training, grad school, postdoc, whatever it might be, and now they’re going out there and doubling or tripling, or more, their salary, potentially in industry, or similar. What behavioral finance concept should that person know about and be applying in that situation?

26:50 Daniel: This is a great question. The concept to know here is what’s called the hedonic treadmill, which says that, as our earning increases, our consumption or spending tends to increase in ways that are commensurate with the increase in earning. And then you never feel richer. You never feel better off because your lifestyle has risen as fast as your income. My number one piece of advice here would be to not let your lifestyle rise faster than your income and to make sure that as your income increases, so does the amount you’re setting aside, because lifestyle creep is a really, really big problem. What’s fascinating is, and I’ve been certainly bitten by some of this and haven’t followed my own advice here in certain instances, but the things that seem so extraordinary to you — I think about my house; when we bought this house it was the most beautiful house I had ever seen and soon it’s just where you throw your dirty socks — it just quickly becomes the backdrop against which you live your life. So really watch out for lifestyle creep. Make sure that if your income increases 50%, that your spending only increases 25%. Have a little fun, but make sure that they don’t increase in lockstep because that’s not where happiness is.

28:26 Emily: Yeah. I guess, I think I would add onto that — you put it very well about how the hedonic treadmill operates — I think that for some PhDs, when they get out of training and they finally have that larger salary, there’s some pent up demand. There’s some pent up wanting to spend behavior because they have been on this constrained income for so long. My advice to that person, in addition to what you said, would be to splurge on something that’s a one time expense, like a grand vacation or something, and not upgrade your housing this high degree, not upgrade your transportation to a high degree, not upgrade those fixed or recurring expenses in your life, but rather have this one wonderful, pleasurable experience and then get back to a lifestyle that is, as you were saying, far below what you could actually “afford” with your new salary, just so you aren’t stuck on that treadmill over the long term.

29:15 Daniel: I love that advice and I think it’s also consistent with understanding how you can spend money in ways that make you happy. When you look at the research on how to spend in ways that makes you happy, giving money away makes us happy, spending on experiences makes us happy and spending on getting rid of stuff we hate doing makes us happy. Having someone mow your lawn for example, makes happy. Buying time, buying experiences, and giving for goodwill — these are the things that make us happy. Don’t go buy a fancy car. Don’t go buy a big house that’s going to lock you into this recurring expense trap and it’s not even going to make you feel any better. It’s a trap.

Last Words of Advice and Where to Find Dr. Daniel Crosby Online

30:01 Emily: It’s great insight. Thank you. Do you have any final pieces of advice? We’ve already heard so much, but anything more for that early career PhD in terms of personal finance or behavioral finance advice?

30:11 Daniel: Again, just really to know your worth. I felt like when I broke out of my swim lane and got out of the cattle call that was sort of herding me towards this very prescribed life and once I sort of broke out and got into the world, I found that people had a lot more enthusiasm and respect for my ideas than they might have in a more constrained academic setting. So know your worth, don’t be afraid to ask for what you’re worth and go get ’em.

30:46 Emily: Wonderful. And if listeners want to follow up more with you, want to learn more from you, read your books, listen to you, where should they go?

30:54 Daniel: Yeah, I’d encourage folks to check out my books. The Laws of Wealth* is probably the place to start, The Behavioral Investor* is next. I’m super active on LinkedIn and Twitter, @danielcrosby.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

31:07 Emily: Thank you so much, Daniel, for this interview.

31:10 Daniel: My pleasure.

Outtro

31:11 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPphDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are four ways you can help it grow. One, subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple podcast, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. Two, share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media or with your PhD peers. Three, recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars covered the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and taxes. Four, subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Achive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

This Postdoc’s Financial Turnaround Story and Attitude Toward Money Are Incredibly Inspiring

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Indira Turney, a postdoc at Columbia Medical Center. Indira tells the story of how her finances changed over the course of her PhD at Penn State. Indira started graduate school with approximately $60,000 of debt in a variety of forms and no idea where her income had been going. She resolved to turn things around, and by the time she graduated she was debt-free with cash savings and investments in a Roth IRA. Indira details the strategies she used to increase her income and minimize her expenses. Her methods are both creative and highly accessible for other graduate students.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

PhD financial turnaround

Teaser

00:00 Indira: And I think that’s when I realized, wait, my bills are going to be the same for the next five years and we’re having all this money coming in, I could pay off my loans. I don’t have to wait until the end. I think that’s what kind of started opening up my eyes.

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode ten and today my guest is Dr. Indira Turney, a postdoc at Columbia Medical Center. Indira tells the incredibly impressive story of how her finances changed over the course of her PhD at Penn State. Indira started graduate school with approximately $60,000 of debt in a variety of forms and no idea where her income from the previous year had gone. On top of that, she realized that she was taking an income cut to approximately $20,000 per year for her stipend. She resolved to turn things around and by the time she graduated, she was debt free with cash savings and investments in a Roth IRA. Indira details the multiple strategies she used to increase her income and minimize her expenses. Her methods are both creative and highly accessible for other graduate students and we could all do well to adopt her attitude toward income and finances. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Indira Turney.

01:25 Emily: I’m delighted to have joining me today on the podcast, Dr. Indira Turney, and she has a really remarkable financial story to tell from her time in graduate school and since. Indira, will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

01:38 Indira: Sure. I’m happy to be here and thanks again for inviting me on the podcast. I’m currently a postdoc at Columbia Medical Center in New York City and I graduated from the University of the Virgin Islands with my bachelor’s. I went on to do a pre-doctoral program at the University of Pittsburgh for about a year and then I went on to earn my PhD in cognitive neuroscience at Penn State University in Pennsylvania. Now, I just started a postdoc at Columbia Medical Center, where my research essentially focuses on using molecular and functional neuro-imaging to identify socio-cultural sources and neuro-correlates of Alzheimer’s disease across diverse racially and ethnic population.

02:25 Emily: That is awesome. Thank you for telling us about that.

Indira’s Debt-Free Journey

Emily: So financially, where were you at the start of graduate school?

02:34 Indira: When I started grad school, I had about $60,000 in debt at the time. I never really calculated it specifically, but I had a car loan, I had about $20,000 student loans, and I had some health insurance stuff that I hadn’t paid off fully and some credit card bills. So in total about $60,000.

02:56 Emily: Yeah, that’s a pretty heavy debt load for grad student, and especially because with all student loans, of course you’d be able to defer that and not pay attention to it. But with other types of debt you still have to address it as a graduate student. What was your income during graduate school?

03:12 Indira: My first year I had the regular base pay of about, I think it’s about $1950 on a monthly basis, so about $19,000 a year. That’s what we got to cover stipend and then they paid tuition as well, as a teaching assistant. That’s what I had the first year and then after that with applying to other things, I essentially increased that based on how much funding I got that year.

03:37 Emily: So can you give me like a range for your subsequent years in graduate school of what you were earning?

03:43 Indira: As far as grad school funding, for years two, three and four, I got an NSF grant, so I went from $19,000 to $35,000, so that was a huge increase. My last year I got off of NSF because it was only three years and I went back to the regular base pay of $1950, but because I was an NSF for three years, I also kind of negotiated having a little extra, so I had about $23,000 or $22,000 a year. In addition to that, I also had other grants and funding, which probably, at max, was about $25,000 a year from graduate funds, as far as stipend goes, in my last year. So anywhere between $19,000 to $36,000

04:32 Emily: And it was just five years during your PhD, is that right?

04:35 Indira: Six years, actually, six years. Right. So the last two years.

04:39 Emily: And you said a word that I love to hear, which is negotiate. Can you tell me really briefly about negotiating?

04:46 Indira: Sure. So technically the program is five years and if you’re more than that, they tend to bump you down as a way to push you out. I essentially was like, “No, I’m not going to get paid $18,000 a year. I saved you guys a whole lot of money for three years by getting NSF funding.” And even while I had NSF funding, I technically taught a class, which I wasn’t necessarily supposed to. So I was just like, “I did a lot for the university, especially for this department. You’re not going to bump me down. If anything, you guys should increase my stipend.” Not in those words of course. I think there’s always room for asking for more money because there’s always money there, because technically they gave you, in your letter in the beginning, this is your five-year funding. There is money there. If you told me there was money there for five years, I deferred for three years, then there’s money there, so don’t tell me I used up your money for six years. I think there’s always ways to negotiate and tell them why this is what you’re worth and you are always worth more than what they give you. And if you ask there’s usually a lot of room for extra money.

05:51 Emily: I know you just said you didn’t use those words, but I really love the words that you just said and I’m so pleased to hear them. I think a lot of people need to hear them, about your value, and especially if you win outside funding. Yeah, of course they should extend your tenure and increase your pay. But I was just very interested in hearing that you actually did that negotiating after the NSF concluded. And so there’s still room when the money is yet to come in, even after the money has already passed through the system. In your opinion and in your example, the money was still there, you said the right words, you unlocked the money. In those last two years, were you doing like an RA or did you have to TA or where did the money from?

06:31 Indira: I did a mixture of both, so I TA-ed, where I taught a class because after your master’s you can actually teach versus just correcting papers, I guess. Then I also did an RA fellowship with my lab advisor where essentially I just did the work in the lab and got paid for it, instead of teaching a class where I’m taking away time from my research. I also got another award that bought off some time where I didn’t have to TA that year, even though I was getting funded by the university, I still didn’t have to TA that semester. So I really only taught two years out of the six years and on-and-off half a semester here and there.

07:09 Emily: Gotcha. Okay, so start of graduate school, things are actually not looking too great for you to start of graduate school. Approximately $60,000 worth of debt, not a very generous stipend, although probably okay, given where you were living. But then second year and following, buku bucks, at least for the time you were on the NSF. What’s the snapshot of your financial picture upon your defense, when you finished graduate school?

07:35 Indira: Upon defending, I was completely out of debt. I had $0 in debt. I tried to pay off everything, so my goal was pay it off in five years and I paid it off in four and a half, so my last year I had absolutely no debt at all. My car was paid off. I had paid all my student loans, except for maybe like $1,000, that I think is lurking somewhere from undergrad because the $20,000 I had was for my first year of grad school because I had moved away from the Caribbean to the United States, and so I felt like I needed the extra money, but I had about $2,000 in undergrad, which those are deferred because I’m still taking in school. But your grad school loans, they accrue interest while you’re in grad school, so I was determined to pay off that before I graduated. So on graduation day, defense day, I was completely out of debt, which was amazing.

08:22 Emily: So just so I’m clear about where the student loans came from, that was from the year that you were in school prior to starting your PhD? Is that right?

08:31 Indira: No, so the year prior to starting my PhD, I was fully funded. I think we got like $2,500 a month for a year or eight months pre-doctoral program. Then, right before I started grad school, I applied for financial aid, for a student loan until the start of grad school. I had a $20,000, I don’t know what it’s called, but essentially it was a loan from the federal government and it accrued interest every month. once you started grad school.

08:59 Emily: Okay. So you had taken out a $20,000 student loan, but you also had the loan money. You received it at that time, at the beginning of graduate school?

09:09 Indira: Yes, essentially they give you the loan from the beginning, and then you decide, which was scary because I’m like, I have $20,000, what am I going to do with it? But the point was for moving expenses and living other things that I didn’t account for moving from the Caribbean. So I had that, and from day one, I guess it started accruing interests, so when you get that first bill where it’s accrued about $50 an interest, because I think it was like a 6% or 7% interest rate and I’m just like what. And I didn’t even know that at the time when I applied for it because I assumed I’m in school and I’m not gonna be paying off or getting interest while I was in school, but not for grad student loans, apparently.

09:50 Emily: Yes. Okay. I’m glad to get a little bit more clarity on that. So you took out the loan at the beginning of graduate school, which was un-subsidized, as graduate student loans are, because of the expenses that you had just accrued immediately before that in the moving expenses and so forth. And also, I’m assuming you’re looking at your stipend thinking, “how am I gonna do this?” Okay, so you had that loan right at the beginning, but then by the end of it, you had paid that loan back entirely, as well as the rest of your debt. Anything else going on in your financial picture by the time you finished graduate school?

10:22 Indira: So at that time, about maybe by third year of grad school, I had started saving, just regular savings in a bank, and then I also started investing in a Roth IRA where I ranged from putting in monthly about a $100 when I started and then maybe I upped it to about $300 a month. So I had a Roth IRA and regular savings at the end of grad school and zero debt, which was amazing.

Making the Changes to be Debt Free

10:47 Emily: Yeah, that sounds fantastic. And what a turnaround story. So what were you doing in between point A and point B to have this vast change?

10:57 Indira: Right. So essentially I applied to everything, including large grants up to $40,000, $50,000, or if you account for stipend, some of them were $80-$100,000, to things that were even just $500 for anything, whether it’s for research or…What I did was, so for example, if you go to a conference and they give you per diem, where you have about maybe $90 a day for breakfast, lunch and dinner, I don’t need $90 a day for food. I don’t normally spend that anyways. And so yes, I can’t meal prep while I’m on a conference, but I usually don’t have breakfast anyways. I’m not gonna waste $30 on breakfast. So when I get back from the conference, especially say a week long conference, I now probably save at least $30 for five days from a conference that I didn’t have breakfast. And most conferences probably give you coffee and bagels in the beginning anyways. Mmost times I probably spent most of the money on dinner because that’s when you network with colleagues in the field. So $30 breakfast and maybe I’m off $50 for lunch, so $70 for five days that I would save. I think that was one of the easiest ways in the beginning that I learned to save money from money that I got legally — legally I’m saving this, but I’m not, you know, forging signatures to say I didn’t have lunch or something like that. Not signatures, receipts, sorry. Because with per diem they’re not asking for receipts.

12:15 Indira: Then the other method. I meal prepped, so I didn’t have to buy lunch, because as grad students I think it’s so easy to run to the cafe and get something there, long nights you get food there, but I generally meal prepped, most times, on Sundays. I have these Mason jar salads that towards the end of grad school I learned was amazing, and so I would prep five and that’s lunch for the week. I have no excuse to buy lunch, especially since a salad costs like $10, when I probably spend $15 for five salads a week. I had fun, I hung out with friends, but I always planned it. Not the specific event, but plan for this month, like I’m spending $120 on fun and by the halfway of the month I’ll check in, where are you in that $120. Because I feel like once I’m out I’m like, “Well, I’m out, I’m going to have fun, I’m not going to make finances keep me down.” And so I just spend whatever versus if I know I’m within my budget, it doesn’t matter. But if I didn’t plan for it, then I overspend.

13:15 Indira: I also did a lot of side hustles, in addition to funding and federal money, where I did hair braiding, dog and cat sitting. House-sitting was my first summer when I moved. I moved about two months early before grad school and instead of paying for rent, I essentially house-sat for someone and they had a cat, so house and cat stuff for that two months. I also did Airbnb with my apartment. In PA, it was a lot cheaper than New York, so I was able to have a two bedroom apartment. On football weekends — Penn state is a big football school — so from Friday evening, someone would come and leave early Sunday morning and in just one weekend I can make anywhere between $600 to $800. I would just go bunk on someone’s couch and leave my entire apartment for someone, because even within the town, they knew football weekend was big, so hotels would be about $400 a night. Instead of paying $400 a night for a bedroom, they’d easily pay $400 a night for a whole house. I did football weekends about maybe five or six times a semester in the fall, and that would essentially be my roommate. I had a two bedroom, but I didn’t need a roommate. Then on graduation weekends, which was in May or December, but usually the May graduation weekend hotel rooms would be like $800 and $900 as well, so I would rent out my entire home again. On graduation weekends, I think I did it twice, and one time I got about $1,500 for just the weekend. I don’t remember the second time how much it was, but it was around that. So side hustles, applying for everything, and also meal prepping, saved me a lot, and planning my expenses for even fun.

Balancing Different Incomes During Grad School

14:56 Emily: Yeah, that was an amazing amount of information and amazing overview of what you were up to. I want to follow up on a lot of that stuff, but just before we get there — so when you started graduate school and you had this lower stipend level and then you know, in the next year the NSF stipend is so much higher than what you were making, so you have this vast income increase — did you change anything in between those two years? Were you living in the same place, for example?

15:28 Indira: Between the first year of grad school and second?

15:31 Emily: Yeah. I’m kind of wondering if you sort of set up your life in the first year to live off of that $20,000 per year-ish, but then you had that vast income increase — did you increase your lifestyle or did you keep your lifestyle at that original level?

15:45 Indira: No, so at the very beginning I was making about $1,800 a month and so I lived in a one bedroom, but technically it was actually more expensive than the two bedroom I moved into cause it was like a apartment complex versus someone who had a home and they were like, yeah, you can live here kind of thing from Craigslist. Um, and so I didn’t intentionally necessarily go cheaper. So that was really the only thing that changed. I probably, I think I was being like $975 for a one bedroom and that I paid like $950 for two bedrooms. So it wasn’t necessarily a big change. I still had a car so that all of those things remained the same. Um, side hustling if anything. I started Airbnb my second year. So even after I got NSF, it was when I started doing it, because I was like my biggest paying side hustle.

16:29 Indira: Lifestyle-wise most of the things stayed the same which is, I think one of the beauties of grad school. Your bills, your lifestyle for the most part stays the same for at least five years. I think for things like that, I started realizing, and I did a workshop from the Black Graduate Students Association and they had something about financial literacy. I think that’s when I realized, wait, my bills are going to be the same for the next five years and we’re having all this money coming in. I could pay off my loans, I don’t have to wait until the end. I think that’s what kind of like started opening up my eyes. But as far as lifestyle, no. Those things pretty much stayed the same for five years. Aside from like emergencies and stuff like that and just like maybe a little more traveling towards the end. But the basic lifestyle remain the same.

17:14 Emily: Okay. So really what happened is you had your lifestyle set at that original stipend level that you were receiving, and then your income vastly increased both from the NSF and from your side hustling. Were you just like crazy throwing everything at debt? Like that was a huge goal that you had. What were you doing with that excess?

17:34 Indira: In the beginning it was more so I never used to save. Like I said, the year before I started grad school, I did that pre-doc program and we got about $2,500 a month and we didn’t have to pay for housing because all of that was paid for. I don’t know where that $2,500 went for eight months. So when I started grad school and I realized I’m getting paid less than I was going to get out of the pre-doctoral level, I was like, “Wait, this makes no sense. Where did that money go? I need to learn to start saving.” I started just putting that extra money in savings, but then realizing of course I’m not getting a big return. All right, I know those debts, those bills keep coming back. And I’m like, “Why am I just letting this accrue interest for the loans?” So then I started paying just the interest rates and stuff like that.

Indira: I think I just didn’t want to be in debt and I realized that I have all this money coming in and grad school and the lifestyle that’s going to be the same for five years. I started realizing that I was blessed to not have $100,000 in just undergrad debt alone because a lot of my friends did. They just have that sitting there because it’s not accruing interest and that’s fine, but I realized too, a lot of them were taking that money and living a more luxurious lifestyle now in grad school because we’re getting all this money and we could live a pretty decent lifestyle depending on how much money you get coming in. But I’m like, “why not just pay off the other debt?” because then guess what, when you’re done with grad school, the debt is still there waiting for you versus live a balanced lifestyle and paying off your debt. I think it wasn’t like a big, “I have to pay off $60,000 debt”, I was just more aware of where my money was going and one thing after another just led me to investing and putting it into different things.

19:18 Emily: Yeah, I’m really glad that you had that sort of realization. Yyou had this one year in the pre-doc program where you are making a pretty okay amount of money for a stipend, but where was it going? And you sort of had a re-evaluation point, like “Okay, I don’t know what just happened to all of that. I obviously have to change some things within like my financial management going forward.” Also, it sounds like you also went to some financial literacy events or a course or something and that also helped you think differently about your money during graduate school and realizing that you had the ability to work on it right then and didn’t all have to wait for the end.

19:57 Indira: Right. Because unfortunately I think a lot of us are just not taught about how to use the money we get. And so then when you get it naturally, we’re like, “Oh my God, I have all these extra thousand dollar a month. Maybe I’ll go somewhere and travel, do something.” Which is nice, but I mean I think that workshop from the Black Graduate Student Association definitely opened up my eyes.

20:13 Emily: Yeah. Sounds super valuable. I’ll make a shameless plug for my own services here. Probably not exactly the same as what you experienced, but I do offer seminars and webinars for universities, specifically for grad students and postdocs on, I don’t call it financial literacy, but I call it personal finance. So anyone out there who’s looking for that kind of programming that can be incredibly life changing, please think of me. My website, pfforphds.com/speaking, is where you can go to find out more about that.

20:38 Emily: Back to Indira’s story. Okay, so we’ve seen the beginning of the end point. You’ve talked about a few of the strategies that got you from point A to point B. I want to dive into each of them a little bit more. So as you said, you were applying for everything to increase your income, including, I mean obviously you won the NSF, you’ve already mentioned that. That’s awesome. Probably the biggest difference of any of anything that happened. You were talking about how you were using per diems from conferences, but just being frugal right around your food spending. So instead of spending 100% of what you are given, that really is a little bit of like windfall money. You come home from a conference, you realize, “Okay, I was receiving X amount of money, only spent whatever it was, 50% of that.” Hey, a little bit of extra money. That’s something that I think having a plan for, that’s what I call windfall money, unexpected money that enters into your pocket somehow. Did you just throw that towards whatever your current goal was? Savings or debt? How did you think of it?

21:41 Indira: Yeah, so in the beginning, whatever extra I had, I just had it in savings and then I realized my savings was looking really nice and I was like, “well, what am I doing with this money?” I don’t have kids. I send money home to family and stuff in the Caribbean, but aside from that, I didn’t have a need to have a big cushion. Especially, like I said again, I know I’m not going to get laid off of grad school, so I didn’t have to have this big cushion in case I lost my job. I was like, “what am I gonna do with that?” In the beginning, I put everything into savings and then I started doing the Roth IRA because I’m like, “Oh well maybe I can get a bigger return there.” Now, as a postdoc, I’m doing some regular investments as well. But at that time it was just a Roth IRA and savings. I started calculating, if I have this in my Roth and this in my savings, where there’s still a “life happens” emergency fund in my savings, the extra I put towards starting to pay off my student loans. I think at one point I just put a lump sum on my car payments. That way, in case something happened, I just didn’t have like the feeling of every month I had to pay a certain amount and if I didn’t then all of a sudden it’s a problem, so I just put a lump sum down. Technically, I was always about three months ahead of my actual payments due. So starting with savings, then the Roth, and then started paying off the student loan and the car loans and the other health insurance and credit card debt. It’s like the highest interest rate and from there, just started working my way down. One thing I liked about what you said is that extra money. I had a monthly income, then I said this is what I’m spending and when I calculated my spending, I had fixed, flexible, where fixed is like the things that you need — there’s no ands, ifs or buts about it. And the flexible is like Netflix or eating out and stuff like that. Those were budgeted based on my $1,800 a month, and then when I had NSF, it was budgeted on my $3,500 a month and then all the extra staff, I never budgeted. Those just went into my savings and paying off debt. I never felt like I was using it and then extra stuff, that I used for extra fun.

Side Hustling as a Grad Student

23:55 Emily: I see. Yeah. Thanks for going into the that detail about your budgeting. You also mentioned that you had tried out several side hustles and I wanted to know because a couple of them are pretty accessible. So the first one that you mentioned was, house-sitting or cat-sitting, which basically meant that you didn’t have to pay rent for two months and this is like sort of a holy grail of things to pursue. How did you land that gig?

24:23 Indira: The house-sitting the first semester — I told my advisor that I wanted to move early and do an RAship, or research assistantship, so she paid me what they would pay a regular RA. I also asked her if there was anyone — on the faculty list there’s always people going on sabbatical or going away for the summer, for a month or during the summer. I know a lot of faculty members, from being at Pittsburgh, I know a lot of them were going away for about at least a month and they were looking for places or people to house-sit, or cat-sit if they had pets. So I was like, “Oh I wonder if people at Penn State do the same thing.” And lo and behold, they did. There happened to be a faculty member who was going away for the two months that I needed a place before grad school. I asked my advisor, she gave me a few different people who were looking, I reached out to them, told them I was moving, going to be a very responsible grad student and I would love to take — at the time, I didn’t have a dog so I didn’t have any recommendations about being a pet-sitter. But I mean, it was a cat, so I think it was easier to sit for a cat. I just applied and reached out to people and interviewed through Skype and stuff like that and then moved all my stuff into their basement, until I was ready to move into an apartment for grad school.

25:31 Emily: Thank you so much for sharing that because, as I said, I think it’s very accessible. It’s maybe not something you’d do 100% of the time and obviously later on you rented an apartment, you didn’t end up doing that 100% of the time. But for a bridge kind of period of time, it’s really perfect. And again, for the summer, as you said, faculty do travel quite a bit. Even someone going on sabbatical or whatever, could be longer than that. What you did is so easy to do. You asked your advisor, you got some recommendations, you followed up with those people, you land —

26:04 Indira: Sometimes our advisors may not know, but once I was in grad school, I also knew what people who needed house-sitters. I think even asking just the grad students, “do you know any faculty member who needs someone,” is another way to go about it, especially again, even sabbatical. I never did it, but for sabbatical, if someone’s going away for a year, that’s a year you can save in rent. I know one person who did that, so there’s definitely ways to save for rent.

26:27 Emily: You know someone who has sat for a year, like nine months?

26:31 Indira: Yeah, it was a little tricky. She house-sat for about four months. It was half a year, so it was just a semester, and she just stayed at their house. She still had her apartment, because she had a partner and he had to stay there and whatnot, but assuming she didn’t have a partner, that would’ve been saving rent for an entire three, four months. I know other faculty members who leave for six, eight months or usually two semesters I guess, and if they have a pet, that’s usually the key thing, where they need someone to stay there because they can’t take the pet with them or they rather not. They usually just have students who can just come and check in, but because usually we have our things set, and especially in a small town, it was a little tougher because you can’t get a six month lease or three month lease, it’s always a twelve month lease and you don’t want to break your lease. But given that opportunity, depending on the state that you’re in, the city, you would be able to just stay at that person’s place.

27:32 Emily: Yeah. This is a great idea for anyone who’s again doing something like moving somewhere on a little bit of an off schedule from what the market is accustomed to. That’s amazing. What were the other side hustles that you mentioned?

27:46 Indira: I did some hair braiding, so doing people’s hair. I have locks now, but before that I did all kinds of hair, and all kinds of races too. Especially being in State College, a lot of the faculty members kids wanted braids, for example. I know a lot of friends for example, who braid hair, but it’s a little tricky to braid ethnic hair versus someone who’s white or Hispanic. I braided all kinds of things. I would do the kids’ hair and of course they love it and be excited and be like, “Oh my God, I want you to do it to my hair all the time,” so that was a client automatically, at least once a month. Then I also did Airbnb.

28:22 Emily: Right. Airbnb. Yeah. That was the other thing I wanted to follow up with you about. It’s very evident to me that you have this, I don’t know if I want to say entrepreneurial, but you just go after things. You just take opportunities as you see them, which is amazing. The Airbnb thing I think is so clever and it’s again, something that I haven’t heard of from a PhD before. I wanted to talk to you a little about it a little bit more. You were renting during this time, right? And was that kind of usage of your rental in accordance with the lease?

28:53 Indira: I know in New York there’s a lot more, I didn’t realize there were so many restrictions with Airbnb. I know there were some rental properties in State College that didn’t allow Airbnb. I was pretty up front with my neighbors. They were these old little couples, so they were pretty flexible. I told them, you know, I’ll have people coming into my, I didn’t say Airbnb because I didn’t think they knew what Airbnb was anyways, but I was like, I have people who will be visiting and they would stay here on the weekend, especially a football weekend, Friday to Sunday. I will make sure they don’t damage anything, everything will be my responsibility, although Airbnb I think reimburses up to like $1 million in damage, I never had that issue. I essentially just reaffirmed them that I will have strangers in my apartment for short periods of time and I will make sure that they don’t disturb the neighbors or anything like that, but if you have a problem let me know. But actually, I think they never lived close to me anyways and like I said, they were older couples, so maybe there was some leeway there. Even after I started doing Airbnb, I told all my friends about it cause I was like, there’s so much money to be made here. Some of them illegally did it and others, their apartment people were fine with doing it as well, for the most part. I think it depends on the city. I think New York is definitely a big no, no, but in PA, unless it was one of those big fancy new student-based apartments, most apartments allowed it.

30:13 Emily: Yeah. This is definitely something that if someone’s interested in this idea, they definitely just have to keep on top of the regulations because it can change really quickly. But yeah, your place in time, it sounded like it was perfectly acceptable and the numbers you were throwing out earlier were very impressive for the amount of money you were able to rent for, especially the graduation weekends. I’m just thinking, you saw a huge influx of people coming in for a game day, coming in for graduation, and you saw what hotels were charging and you just said, “well, I have a place to offer too.” That’s just amazing that you did that. It sounds like some of other people are doing as well, so it’s not like you are the only person who thought of it.

30:49 Indira: I think about maybe four or five of us did. I don’t know anyone who was doing before me. Not like I’m the person who told everyone about Airbnb, but I think everyone was a little hesitant about having someone in their apartment. Is someone going to steal my stuff? And so I think after just being like, “no, there’s no harm because Airbnb also reimburses you up to $1 million,” that’s what they say anyways. I think when I got a dog it got a little trickier. Towards the end of grad school, I had a dog and it was easy for me to just go stay on someone’s couch, because you have friends, you’re probably spending the night there anyways, but with a dog you have to bring a crate and then if they don’t allow dogs in their apartment that gets a little tricky. I would do it a little less frequently when I had a dog and then the last year I just didn’t at all because it just became inconvenient for both me and him and my friends. But I think without a dog or if it’s a really small dog where you don’t have to bring a crate and all that stuff, then I think that’s more flexible too. Or like my friends, if they did it a weekend, I would take their cats and stuff and because it’s easy with a cat and stuff. I just think it depends. For the most part it was, I think, my most favorite side hustle because it brought in the most money for the least effort. Then the second one would have been hair braiding because I just loved doing hair.

32:05 Emily: Yeah. That sounds incredible. And I think this is again, potentially very accessible for other people who live in college towns who can see the same patterns emerging of people flooding into the city for big events.

32:17 Indira: I mean anywhere, especially college towns that have football games because people are just going to spend money. They come with families, they want a big place or a place versus just a hotel room. And there’s a really low risk because the whole day Saturday they’re at the game, so they’re not really there and you can decide whether or not you want them to have parties at your house or not and then they usually leave early Sunday morning and they come late Friday night. It’s really one full day that they’re there. Even now in New York, I was looking into it before I found out that you had to do at least 30 days or something like that. New York would be a good place too if it wasn’t the 30 day limit because again, it’s just another place where people are always coming in. I think as long as it’s a place that people like to visit, I think you can do it.

Lifestyle Changes as a Debt-Free Postdoc

33:03 Emily: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I’m so excited about this. Thank you so much for sharing that. We’ve talked a lot about your time in graduate school. Now that you’re a postdoc and you have even more experience in a different city now as well, you have a whole different set of challenges. What does your budgeting method look like today? What are your best practices?

33:23 Indira: I still use the same thing. I have a monthly budget, I have fixed and flexible spending and I still pay off my credit card in full. Recently, I’ve been experimenting with just trying to calculate the percentage of things that I’m spending for each expense. You know, because of the whole don’t spend more than 30% on rent kind of thing.

33:44 Emily: Exception, New York.

33:46 Indira: Exactly. I’m like, I don’t have a choice. So just having a better sense of my income and where it’s going and what I’m doing. Because in grad school, for example I just had my main fixed spending, flexible spending and everything else just went to debt. Now that I don’t have necessarily debt to pay off, but I have a huge rent and living expense, I just want to know where that money’s going. I still have a Roth IRA and now I am also doing regular investments with stocks and bonds and all that stuff. I just have the one you just leave it and you forget about it. I don’t do the following the stock market. That’s a lot for me right now. Maybe eventually one day, but right now I don’t think I have the time for that.

34:27 Emily: Stick with your current strategy, it’s a good one.

34:29 Indira: Exactly, stick with what you know. For the most part I’m doing the same strategies. I have a Mint app and I also still have an Excel sheet just to kind of visualize where all the money’s going because I think it’s a lot of anxiety of just spending way more than 30% of my postdoc salary on rent, but I’m okay. It’s more of an emotional thing to just feel okay about it. I don’t have a lot of money and I’m spending a lot on rent, but I’m still okay. I’m still doing the same thing.

35:02 Emily: Yeah. Okay, great. What frugal strategies are you using? Are you still meal prepping?

35:08 Indira: Definitely. I still meal prep. My Mason jar salads are still part of my lunches. Depending on my workout schedule and whether I am consistent with working out, I do breakfast, but I haven’t figured out a meal prepping for breakfast yet. Sometimes it’s just a shake. And then dinners, I also still meal prep. I have been trying to strategize and trying to figure out whether I need to meal prep all dinners. Because it’s fine for me to eat the same salad for months and years while I’m at work, versus when I get home, if it’s winter, I don’t really want the same food I had yesterday or maybe want something hotter. It just depends. I’m still trying to figure out dinner, but for the most part I still don’t eat out a whole lot. I still budget, like this is what I’m going to budget for lifestyle this month and if it’s the second week and I’ve gone through that, then I guess we’re done eating out for the week or the month or you know, hanging out or whatever. I still budget everything for the most part and just try to not overspend on things that I don’t need.

Indira: I don’t really take Ubers. The train is pretty reliable in New York. Unless I’m really, really late for something and it’s important that I can’t be late, then I’ll take an Uber, but for the most part, I still take the train everywhere. I feel like a lot of people are just like, “let’s Uber and I’m like, no, I’ll meet you guys there. I’ll take the train.” There’s just so many ways to lose money in New York. It’s ridiculous. I’m still trying to figure that out. I’ve been here about nine months and so I’m still trying to figure out going out. I was a big outdoors person in PA, so parks and hikes were great. Not so much in New York, although I do live close to a park, but it’s not like a hike. I’m trying to figure out those new things because I know there’s a lot of free things in New York, I just need to figure those out. But I still for the most part have a lifestyle and it’s just a matter of, again, budgeting that lifestyle.

Final Words of Advice

36:53 Emily: Thank you for sharing that. Final question as we wrap up here. Thinking back to yourself, your starting graduate school, you have a low-ish income coming in, for the stipend. You have this debt load. In fact, you even took out a student loan because you were unsure about how things were going to go with your finances. What advice do you have for another person facing that kind of financial challenge and also on a grad student kind of income?

37:19 Indira: I mean I think it’s kind of the same things you just summarize. I think apply to everything, no matter how small or large the grants are, because I think the more grants you apply to, the better you get at grant writing. In the beginning it may seem like, “Oh my God, I don’t want to write this essay or this statement.” But over time I reuse statements. And as you get deeper in the program, you learn to write better. You change things, but for the most part I never really rewrote a grant from scratch after my second or third year. Apply for everything no matter how big or small. Don’t doubt that you’re not going to get it, because a lot of grants I got, I didn’t think I was even eligible. Especially for diverse, minority students. I think there’s so much money for minority students that people just don’t even apply to. And then they give it to, not anyone, but people who actually needed versus who don’t. Because people who need it don’t apply or they don’t know about it. Ask other students because there’s so much. A lot of the grants I applied to was because another student had applied to it before. Imagine one person may not have five or ten grants, but if you ask ten different people who had ten different grants that’s ten different grants you can get, so apply for everything.

Indira: Definitely pay off debt while you’re in grad school. Don’t let it sit there and whatever money you get, don’t use it for other lifestyles until after you pay for your debt. One thing I did was paying off debt and then whatever was left over I would have for fun, travel, and stuff like that. And it’s okay to take out a loan in the beginning, especially people who have like $100,000 in debt in undergrad. Yes, it’s not accruing interest, but if you want to take out a loan and just pay a lump sum for now and just to get in the habit of like paying something down, take out the loan. And apply for a lot of things. Have a strategy to pay off the loan before you finish grad school because that loan is going to accrue interest. But in the long run you paid off more in grad school and then it’s like it never existed anyway. So apply for everything, pay off debt while you’re in grad school, and do what you need to do to also still balance life and paying off debt because you don’t have to be miserable paying off debt.

39:21 Emily: And I definitely would also add to that, from your story, just go after it. I mean you were going after funding, you said no to your program: “No, you’re not going to cut my funding. I won so much money. No, you’re going to pay me more.”

39:34 Indira: When you’re starting, so I know I asked after, but even in the beginning, once I was through the program and seeing behind the scenes, you can ask for more money in the very beginning before you even start grad school. They’re not going to take back your letter and say, “well, you asking for too much” because if they have it, they’ll give it. The worst they can say is no. So if they have it, they will give it. So ask.

39:52 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. And I’ve done one podcast episode on negotiating grad student stipend, before in season one. I’m planning on releasing another one, actually a compilation of stories in the  early months of 2020. So if you’re very interested in grad student salary, stipend negotiation, please tune into those episodes.

Emily: Indira, thank you so, so much for sharing this story. Where can people find you?

40:16 Indira: I have been trying to be a lot more active on Instagram, so on Instagram it’s just my name, Indira Turney, so @indiraturney, I N D I R A T U R N E Y. And it’s the same on Twitter, as well. I think those are my two main networking platforms. Email is Indira dot Turney at gmail dot com. It’s fine if you want to ask me questions, please reach out. I’m always open. Like I had mentioned earlier, I’ve been trying to be more open, even about just budgeting on a grad school stipend on Instagram, but also I’ve been also doing a lot of one-on-ones with people just talking about their process because there isn’t a one size fits all for budgeting because people have different scenarios. If you’re interested, send me an email, reach out to me on social media and I’m happy to answer any questions.

41:05 Emily: Yeah, that’s amazing. Thank you for that work that you’re doing, and thanks so much for coming on the podcast today.

41:09 Indira: Thank you for having me. I had a lot of fun.

Outtro

41:12 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode’s show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to PFforPhDs.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to sell without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the free music archives and it’s shared under CC by NC.

 

The Graduate Student Savings Act Fixes a Major Flaw in Tax-Advantaged Retirement Accounts

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In this episode, Emily interviews Abigail Dove, a PhD student at Johns Hopkins. Abby spent last summer as a science policy fellow at the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology (FASEB). Her major policy accomplishment during her internship was to secure FASEB’s endorsement of the Graduate Student Savings Act of 2019 (GSSA), a bill that has been proposed in both chambers of Congress. Graduate students and postdocs are not currently permitted to contribute their non-W-2 income, which typically comes from fellowships and training grants, to Individual Retirement Arrangements (IRAs). The GSSA would allow this type of income to be contributed and have a very beneficial effect on the PhD trainee workforce. Abby explains her role in shepherding the GSSA endorsement through FASEB, what the GSSA would do for graduate students and postdocs, and how the GSSA relates to the SECURE Act, another bill that has passed the House and is before the Senate.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

SECURE Act fellowship income

Teaser

00:00 Abigail: But it was a little tricky for FASEB to first navigate the waters. They’ve never supported a tax legislation before. You think that experimental biology doesn’t have that much to do with legislation on tax. But here was a perfect one for them to start.

Introduction

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode nine and today my guest is Abigail Dove, a PhD student at Johns Hopkins and recent science policy fellow at FASEB, the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology. Abby’s major policy accomplishment during her summer at FASEB was to secure FASEB’s endorsement of the Graduate Student Savings Act of 2019, or GSSA, a bill that has been proposed in both chambers of Congress. Graduate students and postdocs are not currently permitted to contribute their non-W2 income, which typically comes from fellowships and training grants to individual retirement arrangements or IRAs. The GSSA would fix that problem and have a very beneficial effect on the PhD trainee workforce. Abby explains her role in shepherding the GSSA endorsement through FASEB, what the GSSA would do for graduate students and post docs, and how the GSSA relates to the Secure Act, another bill that as of this recording has passed the House and is before the Senate. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Abigail Dove.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:33 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Abigail Dove, and she is a PhD student who completed an internship at FASEB last summer. And she has a lot to tell us about the Graduate Student Savings Act. So if you have been wondering about your IRA and why you can or cannot contribute to it, that’s what we’re going to be discussing in today’s episode. Abby, thank you so much for joining me today and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further?

01:59 Abigail: Sure. Thanks for having me. My name is Abigail Dove. Currently, I’m a PhD student at Johns Hopkins and I just started my sixth year. I work in fruit flies and study the gonad development. A little bit of my background: I first started as an undergraduate at Bard college, a small liberal arts school in upstate New York. And then I did a postbac for two years at the NIH NIDDK (National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases) before starting at Hopkins. What we’re talking about is kind of the work that I did at my internship at FASEB, which is the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, which I guess to be a little more descriptive it’s a society that represents 29 member societies, which has about 150,000 scientists that they represent.

Tell Us More About Your FASEB Internship

02:57 Emily: Excellent. You and I have common that we both did a postbac at the NIH. In fact, I’ve interviewed several other people on the podcast who have that on their resumes as well. So very popular program. Anyone still in college considering going for a PhD in biomedical sciences or related areas should definitely consider the NIH postbac program. It’s amazing. Okay. So you had this internship at FASEB last summer. What exactly were you doing in that role? Because it’s a little bit unusual for a graduate student to have an internship. And I think especially a graduate student in the biological sciences because, I don’t know about you, but I sort of observe the culture as like, “ah, you need to stay at the bench 120% of your time and never do anything away from the bench.” So please tell us a little bit more about what you were doing in that internship.

03:40 Abigail: Yeah, so I was really fortunate. I have a PI that–we both know that I’m interested in a career that is outside of the academic track. So, I did a lot of science outreach and I knew that I like communicating science to the public. So I wanted to pursue this career of science policy as a way to talk to the public about science and its importance. So what I did at FASEB, I had a lot of responsibilities. I was particularly interested in training and workforce policy. So, policy that relates to students, postdocs, and even faculty as it’s something that everyone can relate to. So that was one of the reasons that I was most interested in it. And I did a wide range of things. I hosted a webinar on work-life balance and the lab culture and we can include a link to that if anyone wants to watch it later. I represented FASEB on Capitol Hill and at the NIH for different events and I generated comments on sexual harassment that will soon be sent to the NIH. I also helped organize an online symposium series for the FASEB Science Policy Committee on challenges facing women throughout their career lifetime. And then I compiled minutes for the meetings, I drafted talking points for committee members, and then the big thing that I did was I spearheaded FASEB’s endorsement of the Graduate Student Savings Act.

How to Land a Science Policy Internship

05:13 Emily: Excellent. And we’ll get a lot more into that in a moment. But that sounds like a really exciting internship. It’s absolutely fabulous that your PI was supportive in you completing that. I actually did a science policy internship as well. The Mirzayan Policy Fellowship out of the national academies. That was actually after I finished graduate school. But it’s available to current graduate students as well. So, if what Abby was describing sounds amazing to you, that’s another potential avenue for you to get that kind of experience in science policy. Okay. So how did you actually land this internship if other people are interested in doing something similar?

05:46 Abigail: Yeah, so I first started–we have an office at Hopkins, it’s called the Biomedical Careers Initiative Office. And it’s really great for people that are looking for careers outside of the academic track. They were offering a course on science policy and advocacy that was actually being taught by the Director of Public Affairs at FASEB, Jennifer Zeitzer, and the Director of Science Policy, Dr. Yvette Seger. So the class gave us a background on legislation and how bills get enacted into law. And we did some case studies on different issues in science policy. They also taught us how to be a science advocate. But finally, we had to write a policy memo on an opportunity or challenge in research activities supported by federal funding, and we had to give an elevator pitch on that to the class as well. And I did mine on saving for retirement as a graduate student and a postdoc.

06:48 Emily: Yeah. Excellent. And so was it through that paper and that pitch that you gave that you found the Graduate Student Savings Act?

06:56 Abigail: Yes, that’s how I found it. Oh, I guess we didn’t cover how I got the position too. So this office that hosted the class actually also hosts internships for students. And so FASEB was also accepting applications for science policy fellows through the Biomedical Careers Initiative Office. So I applied for that directly. But they also have internships for a wide range of different careers outside of the academic track, including industry and consulting and patent law as well as policy.

What is the Graduate Student Savings Act?

07:33 Emily: It sounds like a great deal of support actually, that Hopkins is providing and helping you sort of step a little bit outside of academia into another role that can really presumably help your post-PhD career, should you decide to pursue one in science policy. So let’s kind of back up a second and explain more about what the Graduate Student Savings Act is because it’s probably not one that most people have ever heard of. Right? Like probably a lot of people in my audience, they know about IRAs. Maybe they don’t have one, but they sort of know they’re supposed to or maybe they know they might not be able to have one. So what is the Graduate Student Savings Act?

08:06 Abigail: Yeah, so the Graduate Student Savings Act. There’s a bill in both the House and the Senate and they’re essentially the exact same bill, so they’re called companion bills. And they would allow graduate students and postdocs who receive their income through either a fellowship or stipend to contribute to an IRA or an individual retirement account. The current issue right now is that on the current tax law, trainees who are receiving their income through a fellowship or a stipend are actually prohibited from contributing to an IRA because it’s not considered compensation or earned income.

08:44 Emily: Exactly. And I like to further kind of clarify this for people by saying within academia we might use the word fellowship in different ways. We might use the word stipend in different ways. Nobody’s ever heard the word compensation. But what it really boils down to is, is your graduate student or postdoc income reported on a W2 or not reported on a W2? It could be reported somewhere else, it could be reported not at all. W2 income is the kind of income, taxable compensation, or earned income that can be contributed to an IRA under the current law. And anything else in terms of graduate student, postdoc income non-W2 does not fall into that category, unfortunately. So that’s how things currently stand. The Graduate Student Savings Act includes this type of non-W2 or fellowship income in taxable compensation for the purposes of contributing to an IRA. Is that correct?

09:39 Abigail: Yes. And unfortunately, it doesn’t change its designation universally. It doesn’t make it earned income or compensation, but it just allows it to be saved for retirement purposes in an IRA.

09:51 Emily: Yeah. This is one of those confusing things about the tax code in general is that they use these terms like “taxable compensation” and “earned income” under different contexts. And so sometimes they have different definitions under different contexts. So earned income has other implications in the tax code, like around the earned income tax credit. Whereas, taxable compensation has a different meaning. It’s under the section for IRA contributions and so forth. So it’s sort of defined there as “taxable compensation for the purposes of contributing to an IRA is these things,” and currently, it says explicitly, “does not include fellowship income, not reported on a W2.” So that’s the current status. But then there’s this Graduate Student Savings Act bill as you said, it’s sort of on the floor in both the House and the Senate.

How Abby Got FASEB to Endorse the GSSA

10:37 Emily: I was looking at the history of this and I think the first time it was introduced was 2016 and it’s introduced every year I think in more or less the same form until now, 2019. We should actually say we’re recording this interview on September 25th, 2019. It will be released within a couple of weeks of that date. So things might have changed. But as of September 25th, 2019, the Graduate Student Savings Act has not been passed but it is, I guess, available to be passed. So, what was the process like for getting FASEB to ultimately endorse the Graduate Student Savings Act, and what work did you do to make that happen?

11:15 Abigail: Yeah, so originally before I even did the class, FASEB was not aware of the Graduate Student Savings Act at all. It wasn’t on their radar. It wasn’t until I wrote my policy memo on the issues of graduate students saving for retirement, and I actually did the research and I was just Googling it and I came across it on my own, that we both kind of became aware of it. And so I kind of took this on as a task that I wanted to complete in my fellowship and I thought it was an important task and FASEB was great. If there was an issue that I really wanted to take on and it was something that was good for FASEB to endorse, they would have no problem with me taking the lead. So this was my big accomplishment of the fellowship.

12:04 Abigail: And since FASEB is a nonprofit organization any bill that they support needs to have bipartisan support for endorsement. And that thankfully both the House and Senate bill had bipartisan support on both pieces of legislation. I think some of the previous iterations of the Graduate Student Savings Act didn’t have bipartisan support. So this was really important for FASEB to get on board. But it was a little tricky for FASEB to first navigate the waters. They’ve never supported a tax legislation before. You think that experimental biology doesn’t have that much to do with legislation on tax. But here was a perfect one for them to start.

Personal Impact of Flawed Tax Legislation

12:49 Emily: Yeah. As you were saying earlier, it’s a clear workforce issue. Right? So that’s the definite connection or conduit between what they do generally and this weird little tax quirk that happens to deeply affect their own workforce.

13:03 Abigail: Well, yes. So this actually personally affected me. From when I was in college and doing other side jobs, I was always contributing to an IRA, if possible. My dad is very financially responsible and he just told me when I was young, “you need to have an IRA.” He always recommended a Roth IRA. He always thought it would be better to get tax first and any profit you make later you don’t get taxed on. So there’s two different IRAs, a Roth and the standard IRA. So maybe some clarity on that. But this personally affected me when I was a post-bac for those two years I was receiving stipend income and wasn’t reported on a W2 so I couldn’t contribute to an IRA for those two years.

13:51 Abigail: Then my first year in graduate school I was on a training grant, so also not receiving a W2 so I couldn’t contribute. My second year I was actually a teaching assistant, so I was being employed by the university somewhat and getting my income reported on the W2. So I was for that year able to contribute, which was really great. And then I got awarded the National Science Foundation, Graduate Research Fellowship award.

14:20 Emily: Congratulations, but also, dun, dun, dun.

14:23 Abigail: Yeah. So it was really great. But then I also couldn’t contribute to my IRA because it wasn’t reported on a W2. So that affected me for my third and fourth year of graduate school. My fifth year I got married. So that changed things a little. I was still on my NSF fellowship. But because I was married to someone who had a real job and was receiving income that was deemed compensation, I was able to contribute to my Roth IRA just because I was married to my husband. so that was my last year of my fellowship. Now I’m back at Hopkins and I’m TA’ing for this year. So I will again be able to contribute even if my husband wasn’t receiving earned income himself.

15:14 Emily: Yeah, I have a little bit of a similar story of flip-flopping between RAs and fellowship income. And at some point I got married and so my husband, having a similar situation of flip-flopping between RAs and fellowship income, it helped in certain years one of us would have a taxable compensation, maybe the other one wouldn’t. So one of the things that helps people in this situation–under the current status of fellowship income, non-W2 income is not eligible to be contributed to an IRA–one thing that helps is that the academic year and the calendar year do not line up. So, if you have different sources of funding in two different academic years, maybe you can be covered for one calendar year in terms of being able to contribute. It helps if you’re married of course, to someone with taxable compensation. And the other workaround is actually having a side hustle that is self employment income. So self-employment income is taxable compensation that can be contributed to an IRA. So that’s something I sometimes float with people who are frustrated by their multi-year wonderful fellowship packages that don’t allow them to contribute to an IRA. If it’s possible to side hustle, that’s another way to kind of sneak in that eligibility. So, your stipend wouldn’t be eligible, but that side hustle income would be eligible. All these are workaround solutions, the real main solution is just changing the tax code because this is ridiculous that this is happening, right?

Commercial

16:35 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs, and other early-career PhDs for universities, institutes, conferences, associations, etc. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs, like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you are interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. That’s p f f o r p h d s.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

Anything Else About Your Role in FASEB?

17:25 Emily: Okay. So, anything else to add about your role with getting FASEB to endorse the GSSA?

17:31 Abigail: Yeah. So, because it was a tax bill and FASEB had never endorsed a tax bill before, they want it to go through full process of endorsement. They wanted to get everyone’s feedback on it. So the first step was going through their Training and Career Opportunities Subcommittee. So, they have a monthly meeting, I prepared talking points for the chair of that committee, and we discussed it and they couldn’t see anything wrong with it. So, we got a full endorsement from that subcommittee. Then we had to go up one level to the Science Policy Committee and did the same thing, had to talk to the entire committee, got overwhelming support of it. So, it got pushed up to the next FASEB tier, which was the executive committee. They gave the final approval. Actually, for the Training and Career Opportunities Subcommittee and the Science Policy Committee, I made a one-page summary of the current situation and how the Graduate Student Savings Act would change that. So, a one-page review for them. And then when we went for approval for the Executive Committee, we had the full letter drafted for them to approve, and we can also give you a link to the FASEB’s endorsement letter too, as well.

18:56 Abigail: Normally, it would go to the FASEB board for approval, but the board was jam-packed with what they had to do for that month. So, because we got unanimous support from the two committees before that, they thought that the Executive Committee approval would be sufficient. But I started my internship in June and it wasn’t approved until the first week of September. So, it does take a long time for this approval to go through because you have to wait every month for the next committee to happen. And if there are changes and edits to it, then it can also take a lot of time. You want to do it as quick as possible so the endorsement actually has an effect if the bill is getting voted on soon.

19:47 Emily: Yeah, exactly. This is fascinating to hear kind of how the sausage is made, and not even to make the policy, but just to get something like this: an endorsement from group whose endorsement matters in this kind of thing. What I’m just thinking is how good it is that FASEB has connections to the current trainee workforce like through you and other interns they accept because they had you to tell them, “Hey, this is an issue that’s going on. And by the way, there’s a solution to it and it’s in front of Congress right now.” So it’s just, I guess it’s really good for them to offer these kinds of internships programs to get those fresh ideas and those connections to people who are still in training.

20:30 Abigail: Yeah, I think they really appreciate the fellowship program for that same perspective. The younger generation. People serving on these committees and the boards are faculty members that have been serving for a while and they’re very removed from this training portion. I think there might be–and correct me if I’m wrong–but I think there could be a few postdocs who are serving on boards, but I think that’s very unlikely. Most of it’s always faculty. There’s never a postbac representative in these meetings. So, having a fellow there, they really value so they can get that younger perspective on what’s happening currently.

What is the SECURE Act?

21:10 Emily: Yeah. That’s excellent. Okay. So that was your role with FASEB and then with respect to the GSSA, the Graduate Student Savings Act. There is a different bill before Congress that has sucked up a lot more attention in terms of changing the tax code than the GSSA has, and that is the SECURE Act. Can you tell us what the SECURE Act is? Not in a lot of detail, but basically just how it relates to the Graduate Students Savings Act?

21:35 Abigail: The SECURE Act is Setting Every Community Up for Retirement Enhancement Act of 2019, and it’s just a massive retirement savings bill. For some perspective, the Graduate Student Savings Act is a two-page bill, whereas the Secure Act is 124 pages. So it’s just way too large for FASEB to endorse something so big. But fortunately, it has almost the exact same wording as the Graduate Student Savings Act in one of its sections. So it would get across the same thing as the Graduate Student Savings Act. It would allow graduate students receiving unearned income to contribute to an IRA account. It just was too big of a bill for FASEB to endorse because we can’t vet everything and it’s a little bit out of FASEB’s wheelhouse.

22:22 Emily: Yeah. So, basically what sounds like has happened is that the Secure Act has absorbed the Graduate Student Savings Act pretty much verbatim. And it’s making a lot of other changes as you said to retirement accounts. I’ll link to a couple articles on the Secure Act from the show notes, but some other things that caught my eye that it’s trying to address are like having part time workers have more access to 401k’s. It’s changing a little bit of the distribution rules, like once you’re actually in retirement and about inherited IRAs and there’s just a lot of changes there. Abby and I were glancing over it and we saw something that, “Oh maybe this addresses the kiddie tax.” We’re not even sure about that, which would be amazing if it does. So there’s a lot of different things that it touches.

23:02 Emily: And as you were saying earlier, like for FASEB being able to endorse the GSSA, the GSSA had to have bipartisan support. In fact the Secure Act does have bipartisan support. It passed the House and is currently hung up in the Senate as of, again, September 25th. Because the Secure Act passed the House with such strong bipartisan support, everyone kind of thought that it would pass the Senate really quickly. But it’s been hung up, so its future is uncertain but hopefully it will get through. And the wording that was adopted from the GSSA, hopefully that would actually be maintained. And in the final version we would actually see this benefit be extended to graduate students and postdocs where it wasn’t before. But that’s kind of where things stand as of today as of this recording. Hey, maybe by the time this is published something will have changed on that front. That would be awesome.

23:56 Abigail: I think something also important to note is that the wording of the bill, I don’t think that it would also apply to postbacs. It seems very specifically to graduate students and postdocs. So I think, unfortunately, postbacs would be still excluded from the Graduate Student Savings Act.

How Will the Internship Help Your Future?

24:12 Emily: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. I’ll have to take a look at that because I didn’t realize there were distinctions being made among different levels of training. We’ll see how that actually shakes out. It’s always sort of uncertain until kind of the next tax cycle rolls around how these things are actually going to be implemented and everything. Thank you for pointing that out. For postbacs out there, this might not be the news you’re looking for. Maybe you still need the side hustle or maybe you still need to get married to have one of these workarounds. Just kidding, people don’t do that. Okay. So Abby, how do you think that this internship experience with FASEB is going to benefit your future career?

24:52 Abigail: Oh, I think it benefited me already tremendously. Besides from just getting a sense of what science policy really is and getting to immerse myself in it and what I would expect in a job. I got great networking. I already met a bunch of people because FASEB represents so many other societies. You know, I really got to get my name around and people know my work now. I also just got a ton of experience. I generated a bunch of writing samples, which is really crucial in the science policy job search, and I think I’ll get great references also for future jobs. So, it’s benefited me tremendously.

25:30 Emily: Do you have specific plans yet for after you finish? Like what positions you might apply for?

25:35 Abigail: Yes, I’m probably looking for science policy analyst positions. When I graduate. I don’t see really any benefit of doing a postdoc afterwards. There are people that continue to do more science policy fellowships. I’m kind of in the boat where I would just like to be out of fellowships and schooling and just want a real job. And I think with this internship I generated enough experience that I would be able to get an entry-level position and be a sought-after candidate.

Final Advice for Early-Career Grad Students

26:08 Emily: Yeah, I have a great deal of sympathy with that position of, “okay, I don’t need any more training. I’m trained. Let me have a job. Finally.” Definitely. So Abby, last question here, which is one I ask all of my guests. What is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And that could be related to something we’ve talked about today or it could be something entirely different.

26:29 Abigail: Yeah. So I think of course I would recommend that everyone should open and save in a Roth IRA account and start saving what they can, even if they can’t hit the max. But I think more importantly, we know that graduate school is a really stressful time, and I think it’s really important to invest in your personal wellbeing. And so if that means, paying for workout classes or traveling or if it’s even retail therapy. I think whatever it is, if it’s important to you and if it makes grad school a little bit saner for you it’s important to put some money aside and make time for yourself.

27:08 Emily: Yeah, it’s, it’s actually a little bit weird that sometimes we have to give graduate students permission to spend money on themselves. But if you think about it like more broadly, other people when they receive the financial advice to cut back on those discretionary expenses, cut back on those Wants and so forth, it’s usually because they’re spending at such a level that’s actually endangering their other financial security.

27:35 Emily: Graduate students I would say in general are not spending a sufficient percentage of their income on discretionary things for themselves. Actually, sort of to tie this back to the GSSA, one of the co-sponsors of the GSSA is Senator Elizabeth Warren. She’s sponsored every year in the past, whatever, four years that it’s been up. Many years ago, back when she was a consumer advocate, basically, she wrote this book called All Your Worth*. She co-authored it with her daughter. And that book promotes the balanced money formula, which is to spend, of your after-tax income, no more than 50% of your after-tax income on Needs, 30% on Wants and 20% to Savings. And I was looking at that the other day and I’m thinking that graduate students, I would be surprised if they spent 30% of their income on their Wants.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

28:28 Emily: Usually, it’s that Needs category that gets up to 60, 70, 80% or more because of rents and high costs of living areas and low stipends and all of those kinds of problems. So yeah, in fact, sometimes we do need to hear the advice that it is okay to spend a little bit of money on yourself to help bolster your mental health and help you get through graduate school in great shape. Of course, it’s ideal if you can do that alongside saving for your future and doing all these other great things, but we want you to get through graduate school in one piece. So yeah, thank you for that advice, Abby, and for giving this interview today.

29:02 Abigail: Well, thank you for having me.

Outtro

29:05 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to pfforphds.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to do so without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC.

This PhD Student Feeds Her Family Largely from Her Garden

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In this episode, Emily interviews Jane CoomberSewell, a PhD student in Media and Cultural Studies at Canterbury Christ Church University. Jane is self-funding her PhD through several part-time jobs and self-employment as part of the gig economy. Jane and her wife embrace this lower-earning phase of life by making frugality and budgeting into a game for their household of five. They are serious gardeners with a long-term plan to become almost completely self-sufficient in their food consumption. Jane explains what she grows in her garden, how she creates standard daily meals from the produce, and how gardening helps her work-life balance.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

grad school garden

Teaser

00:00 Jane: Financial balance is tricky. If you treat it as a challenge that it’s almost certain that you’re going to overcome and therefore it becomes a bit of a game, then it all becomes a lot more fun. And why are we here if not to be enjoyed and enjoyable?

Introduction

00:27 Emily: Welcome to the personal finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode eight and today my guest is Jane CoomberSewell, a self-funded PhD student in media and cultural studies at Canterbury Christ Church University. Jane and her wife are avid gardeners. They have dramatically reduced their food spending by eating largely from what they produce and have a 10 year plan to become almost totally self-sufficient with respect to their food. In addition to discussing her garden and favorite recipes, Jane shares her positive attitude toward this lower income phase of life and how she makes budgeting and frugality into a game. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Jane CoomberSewell.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:15 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me today on the podcast, Jane CoomberSewell and she’s gonna take a moment to introduce herself to us a little bit further right now.

01:26 Jane: As you said I’m Jane. I’m the equivalent of a third year PhD student, but it’s a bit complicated because I’ve been part time until very recently, so I’ll be looking to submit in March 2020. I have a wife and we’ve been married for nearly eight years and in our household we have three grown-up young men, a 20 year old and two 24 year olds, all of whom are on the autistic spectrum to whom we give care. We’re trying to go self-sufficient, as much as we can, but we also have a range of jobs that we do to keep the wolf from the door and because we love doing them. My background is that I was a civil servant, I worked for the local authority, and now I work as a study skills support tutor to mainly students with disabilities at a couple of local universities. That gives you a starting point on me.

02:33 Emily: Could you say what your field is and where you attend, if you like.

02:39 Jane: I go to Canterbury Christ Church, which is one of three universities in the city of Canterbury, which is about 45 minutes drive from where I live. I come under media and cultural studies this week because they keep changing the name of the department. Might be media and design by the time we finish this. What I’m doing is I’m studying the life of a British war-time and post-war comedian/entertainer/actress called Joyce Grenfell.

03:14 Emily: Thank you. So you’re not employed by your university as what we would say in the States as an RA or TA. What is your relationship with your university and where does your money come from?

03:31 Jane: My relationship with the university, as such, is that of pure grad student. I’m counted as self-financed, so I don’t have any scholarships from any external bodies. My bio on university websites says I’m funded by the sweat of my own brow, and that’s basically how it is. In the past, when I was part time, I had up to four jobs that I was juggling along with studying, but now, because we’ve been able to secure a contract directly with disabled students allowance, it means we’ve been able to become become more stable. I’m actually better paid per hour, so I can cut my hours back and be full time on my PhD. But I also do all sorts of portfolio career and gig economy work. Whatever it takes to keep a roof over my boy’s head and keep funding. But yes, it’s my bank account that my fees come out of every month, not anybody else’s.

04:36 Emily: Right. That sounds like a very busy lifestyle. Full time on your dissertation, part time work, full time parenting of multiple children.

04:46 Jane: Yep, never bored, never bored.

04:49 Emily: Can you share with us what is your household income?

04:55 Jane: Okay, so it’s actually quite difficult to work out. Our household income is low enough that of the last seven years, we’ve only actually paid income tax twice so that indicates that in pure earned money, we’re earning less than £26,000 a year between the two of us, who as such, are heads of the house hold. But because of the boys disabilities, they get a variety of other income streams which works out to not huge amounts, but the impacts on the sort of total household income, about another £12-15,000 pounds a year. That’s all. So if you put that together, you’re talking, you’re still talking under £40,000 pounds. Not quite sure what the dollar conversion is but I think that would be about $60,000 for five of us.

05:53 Emily: Yeah, that’s a pretty tight of income to work with. Can you give us broad strokes how you’re making that work at a really high level?

06:04 Jane: Okay, so at a really high level, we treat it as a game because if you treat it as stress you would probably go a bit kabloo-y. So everything is a game. When the boys were younger, it was about challenging them. How quickly could they turn off all the switches so nothing’s on standby except the freezer and the fridge. Everything is a game. Everything is about how low can you get the costs for the necessities, so then you’ve got a little bit of money left over for fun, but also how much fun can you have for free. That’s basically how we treat our total income. We’ve very lucky we don’t have a mortgage, because in past years we earned more and we were able to get rid of the mortgage when we got married. We’re also very lucky because we live in a beautiful part of Kent in the Southeast of England. We are less than a mile from a beach and well, if you want some entertainment, go outside.

07:11 Emily: Yeah. I love that attitude of keeping the necessities down, leaving room to spend money on fun, but then also just maximizing the amount of fun that you can have for free. I love that.

Food Spending and Starting on the Path to Self-Sufficiency

07:23 Emily: So, specifically what we’re going to be talking most about in this podcast is food. Food spending and generating —

07:29 Jane: My favorite subject!

07:31 Emily: Yeah. So please give us kind of a sketch of how food works in your house.

07:37 Jane: So how food works is the two biggest boys, who are husband and husband — one is our grandson, so the other is our grandson in law — they have an apartment down the side of our house and they have part time jobs, so they generate their own money for food, or nearly generate their own money for food and they’re responsible for their own shopping and their own cooking. As I said, they’ve all got disabilities, but hopefully by the time they’re in their mid thirties, those two will be completely independent. When I’m talking about food and budgeting and I’m talking in the context of three people. Now the first thing to say is that, bless him, the youngest, the one who’s still most dependent on us, he has some food issues with his disabilities and he doesn’t eat any homemade food. He will only eat ready meals. So of our, approximately £40/week food budget, about £12 is for Ruki’s food.

08:43 Jane: After that, one of the ways we do it is that, my wife’s gone vegetarian. That’s for health reasons, but it has benefited the budget. I’m a bit cheeky, I only eat meat when I’m at my mum’s so she can pay for it. Or you know, if it’s a treat. Going vegetarian isn’t to everybody’s taste, but if you’re careful and you like veggie food, it can save you a lot of money. We are in love with beans, pulses and lentils and things like soya mince. Cooking is one of the things I’m best at, so I’m really good at flavoring things so they don’t taste boring. But we also have a Costco card and a Booker’s card, because it’s a similar cash and carry type thing, and we’re really good at stretching that out when they’ve got deals on.

09:49 Jane: But we’re also going self-sufficient. So until very recently, unfortunately I’m between flocks at the moment, but until very recently we had six chickens. We were producing our own eggs. And we have an enormous garden. My wife’s a lot older than me, so we have raised beds so that as we get older we can still garden and we are probably seven years into a 10 year plan to go almost entirely self-sufficient. We’re not quite there yet, but very nearly. We grow all our own, particularly potatoes, tomatoes. Then big crops at the moment I’ve just planted 240 sweet corn, or corn on the cob. We have three freezers and as long as you run them full rather than empty, they’re very cheap to run.

10:45 Emily: So when you say self self sufficient, is that the term that you used?

10:49 Jane: Yeah.

10:50 Emily: What does that mean?

10:51 Jane: Okay. So within as far as we can without actually starting a small holding, we’re trying to produce as much of our own food and to an extent later on, I want start adding so herbal medications as we can. We’re also beginning to try to be kind to the environment, so we try to keep, not only to keep costs down, things like single-use plastics out of the house as much as possible. We’re not quite there yet and realistically, I’m never going to own a cow and make my own cheese, but as much as you can in an ordinary domestic, suburban street, it’s about having as much in-house as we can.

11:46 Emily: Yeah. I’m glad you added that detail of the kind of place that you live. So it is a suburban environment? You have like sort of a back yard, we would say here.

11:55 Jane: Yes. When we talk about yards, we tend to think of something that’s concreted over, but yes, we have a very large garden. It’s 50 feet wide by a 100 feet long. I’ve got enough room to have — I mean my chickens are so spoiled. They don’t have a coop, they have a whole summer house that I’ve adapted and they have an 8 foot by 10 foot run, plus a mobile run on wheels. We have a greenhouse, and basically apart from one area that I let one of the boys have to plant flowers, if I can’t eat it, I don’t grow it.

12:35 Emily: Gotcha. So it sounds like, for your 20 year old, that’s most of the grocery budget you said, which was about £40 a week which is a over $50 in US. That’s almost all supporting him, is that right?

12:53 Jane: Well, no. I would say considering, considering that he’s one person, about half the budget is being spent on him, but even then, one of his disabilities is a very bad relationship with food. And if he doesn’t finish it, it supplements the chicken’s feed. As long as it’s nothing that can harm a chicken, I have a bit of a thing about feeding chickens, chickens, but apart from that, there’s very little things chickens won’t eat. So if Ruki can’t finish it, then either the chickens get it or the cats get it. Nothing, nothing is wasted. We have a lot of composting. It’s not only about how little you can spend, but it’s also about how far can you stretch it.

13:42 Emily: Yeah. So then the other half of the grocery budget is for you and your wife, but really mostly you’re eating out of your own garden and you’re cooking at home, it sounds like exclusively vegetarian meals.

13:57 Jane: Almost exclusively. At the moment we’re about 50% self-sufficient. We’re not quite to growing entirely out of the garden. I’m not sure whether I’ll ever crack the volume of beans and pulses that we would need to last us all year round, but certainly for six to eight months of the year where we’re pretty much eating out with the garden. And eventually I hope to make that all year round.

14:26 Emily: Well, yeah, I’m glad you mentioned seasonality. So how does that work there? Is your actual money you spend weekly on food, higher in certain seasons and then lower in others and how do you handle that?

14:39 Jane: I think it’s certainly lower in high harvest. We do a little bit of bartering as well. So among neighbors, friends and family, if I’ve got a glut of rhubarb, I’ll happily swap it with a neighbor for some green beans if mine haven’t been very good this year. And the wonderful thing about the barter economy, of course, is you can’t be taxed for it. But yeah, our fresh fruit fruit, veg, and salad bills are a lot cheaper in the summer than they are the winter. But as I said, I have three freezes and as harvest time approaches, everything has to be finished from last year, so we can start fresh and really stock them up.

15:31 Emily: Do you do any other food preservation, like canning or anything like that?

15:35 Jane: We are practicing. I don’t think we’ve quite cracked it yet and I’m very fortunate in that I have a very — they live a ways away but I have a very efficient mother and I’m not very good at things like jams and jellies, so I will turn up with the fruit, the sugar, the pan, and the jars and she will give me back the jam and the chutneys. I am very lucky from that point of view. I think the big thing with going self-sufficient — gardening, cooking — is you never stop learning. I think that’s maybe that’s one of the reasons why I love it so much. At the moment, I could honestly say I’m really good at making fruit syrups to go on ice cream, but my jam never sets, but next year I might crack it. I’m going to keep trying.

16:22 Emily: I liked that attitude as well.

Commercial

16:25 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs and other early career PhDs, for universities, institutes and conferences, associations, etc. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, but you can find more information and ways to contact me at PFforPhDs.com/speaking, that’s P F F O R P H D S.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

Long Term Plan for Food Self-Sufficiency

17:14 Emily: So you mentioned that you have a ten year plan and that you’re seven years into it, I was just wondering how you have managed to make that plan, and to plan for that kind of long term time period? And you said at the end of it you want to be nearly self sufficient, but what’s changing between now and then?

17:36 Jane: I think part of it is about getting the boys as independent as they can be. The more independent they are, the more time I have to spend on the garden. So the reason why I say seven years of a ten year plan, originally it was a five year plan. We bought this house seven years ago, August coming, and it was a very different house to how it is now. And at the time we had a little bit of savings. So what do you do when you find the perfect house? You rip it to shreds and reconfigure it. The first two and a half years were about making the house how we wanted it. What is now the boy’s apartment had been the office of the previous owners. So that was a big part of it. We knew for the first two and a half to three years that the garden would be on the back burner and we really weren’t self sufficient then, but it was always part of the dream. Then, we were on track and we had a really bad year. We lost my mother in law. Ruki came to live with us having been in a very desperate house situation. He’s another grandson. He’s the one who we have to buy most of the food for. Also, another of our grandsons was murdered. It was a hell of a year and it was also the year I started my PhD, and that’s when your relationship with the university becomes really important because several times they offered me an interruption and it took me quite a lot to persuade them that actually, doing my PhD was my solace and what was actually keeping us going because it was the one part of my life that wasn’t wrapped up in all this chaos. That, and doing a bit of gardening, so that’s one of the things that slowed well.

19:46 Jane: I think we’ve always wanted to go self sufficient and be as independent as we can. I think the plan has developed and I think any plan that doesn’t develop and isn’t organic is just a document. Ours is a document, it’s on pieces of paper and backs of envelopes, but it is a working document. Every few months we’ll go out in the garden, we’ll say, “You know what, that crop isn’t growing there on the plan of our garden, next year we’re going to grow it in raised bed — they’re very originally titled raised bed one, two, and three. It’s not growing in raised bed one, let’s try it in three next year or it’s not growing under the cherry tree. It’s too much shade. Let’s try it next to coop where there’s full sun next year.” And so I think one of the big things, whether you’re planning a business or anything that you’re planning to develop yourself, you have to keep revisiting that plan. And I’m hoping it’s not going to turn into a 12 year plan or a 14 year plan. I’m hoping that by 10 years the garden will be fully productive and every year it will just be about giving it that first seasonal weed and getting the crops in, or indeed, not even having a seasonal weed because it’s productive 365 days of the year. My big dream this year is having spuds I’ve grown myself for Christmas dinner.

21:12 Emily: How much time are you devoting to it?

21:21 Jane: Well, an ideal day for me looks like getting up around seven, being in the garden by eight. This is obviously if it’s not throwing it down. Doing a couple of hours and if Joyce is free to come with me too, so much the better. And then spending the rest of the day either studying or earning money. In an ideal world, I literally do that seven days a week. When you have a portfolio career like us, there’s no such thing as a working week. Every day has the potential to be a day off or a day of work. That’s why we also try and only do things that we love because then it never feels like hard work. You might be exhausted at the end of a day of heavy digging or of working very hard with students who nearly got what you’re trying to get across them, but they’re not quite there, but Joyce says if it doesn’t move, touch and inspire you, you can do without it in your life.

22:29 Emily: Yeah, I love that. And I relate to it very much, as well, as a self employed person. It never stops, but if you’ve chosen what you love to do, then that’s great, because it never stops. It sounds like you’re trying to have, maybe not work-life balance in the sense of hard weeks versus weekends, but just the daily “I’m doing what I love, I’m doing what’s rejuvenating, what’s refreshing” right away after you get up and then you can tackle the rest of the day.

22:56 Jane: Yeah. And I think particularly for trying to create a balance between study or an external job and growing even some of your own fruit and veg — lots of people go to the gym first thing in the morning, I go and garden. And because I have to put the chickens to bed, they don’t have their own little beds, I wish they did, I’m also out in the garden probably for the last 20 minutes before I go to bed, or before I start getting ready for bed. That starting and ending the day, even if it’s just time to have a walk round and see where I’m at, really helps set my mind up. Especially with one of my part time jobs, it’s all a bit stressful at the moment. Just keep it in perspective sometimes. Actually, just don’t do anything for a day or two, wait, see what develops, and the garden could really give you that message.

23:54 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Frugal Food Recipes

23:57 Emily: I asked you to prepare to tell us a few different recipes that you like that are both inexpensive, and you mentioned earlier that you are great with seasoning, so I want to hear how you’re doing with that because I am not so good with seasoning the food that I create. What are some of your favorite low cost recipes?

24:13 Jane: Okay, so really simply, you asked me t0 think about each meal of the day. Nine times out of ten, we’ll have — okay, mandatory translation — porridge or oatmeal for breakfast. So this time of the year, that might be in the form of overnight oats or Bircher where I’ve taken the fruit, we’ve grown ourselves. Yesterday we had our own strawberries. We have a microbiotic drinks that we buy, one of the few things I will never be able to replace, called Actimel. So it would be, oats, this microbiotic drink, and the strawberries. Goes in the fridge the night before and just get it out the fridge next day.

25:03 Jane: Lunch. Our favorite is always some kind of salad, which at the moment is very much from the garden. We are also quite fortunate that one of the boys works part-time at a local salad packing factory and anything that they’ve decided is not appropriate to sell, they’re allowed to bring home to supplement their wages, and he’s not a salad boy, so he passes it all onto us. So yeah, we have a lot of salad, often, as I say Joyce is vegetarian, with a boiled egg or with a little bit of grated cheese.

25:40 Emily: And then what about a dinner meal?

25:43 Jane: Okay, so a a dinner meal. I’m a big fan of, as I said, lentils and pulses, and also, soya mince. But supplementing it with as much fresh fruit and vegetables as in season as I can. I’ve almost got what I would refer to as a soya mince base that I can then get a tub out of the freezer. That’s what I’m going to do tonight. Tthen I add to it to turn into, so it’s a bit like, again, post-war Britain or post-war anywhere really. You would often have the stew on the stove that you added to every day. My absolute classic one is the equivalent of a can of tomatoes, half cup of lentil, any lentil, normally red in this house, an ounce per person of soya mince and whatever small vegetable, for example peas, sweet corn, mushrooms, onions, peppers, that you’ve got available, chopped up, really small. I make a vat of it in the slow cooker, and then I will portion that down. And then today we want something akin to Shepherd’s pie or cottage pie, so I will take out enough for the two of us I’ll add more vegetables that probably need using up, yet more mushrooms, yet more whatever. And we’ve got some potatoes that need using up, so I’ll put a top on it, but then next week I might get out the same base add some red kidney beans and some chilies. I’ve even managed to dry and caramelize my own chilies now. And that will be chili. Joyce’s mom was always teased because she could take mince, add different flavorings and turn it into anything. But actually if you’re imaginative, especially if you’ve got access to fresh herbs in the garden — right now my rosemary bush isn’t doing very well at the moment and we grow rosemary at university, so every time I’m on a break at uni, I go around and pick some rosemary from the university garden. And I’ll bring it home and dry it. I make rosemary biscuits.

Jane: And really if you’ve got those core mixes that you can cook very quickly and have available — we do a lot of batch cooking — then it being a good cook doesn’t have to be standing in front of the stove for another two hours when you finished your day’s work. It also doesn’t have to be having things sent to you in a box with a recipe card. When you said to me, what’s some classic recipes, it’s actually really hard for me because I am very much a “this is what I’ve got available” type of cook. How much have I got? Chuck it in! My boy Jason, the eldest, he says, you know you’re a good cook when you can open the fridge. Go damn, there’s nothing there. I know what I can make from that!

28:59 Emily: Yeah, very good point. I’m really, really glad that what you shared with us basically is what you’re eating on a daily basis. You have patterns in what you eat every day, and I like that because, of what you said. When you have more or less the same mix of things available or at least things that you can sub out, like this is going to work or that is going to work, depending on the time of year, you can be really efficient with using up everything you have. And it doesn’t take a lot of mental energy to figure out what you’re going to eat every day because it’s more or less a variation, it’s the same pattern.

29:36 Jane: It’s also, both budget-wise and health-wise — I mean I’m not exactly wasting away here and I’m trying to lose a few pounds –if you plan it will become sort of easy. Normally, Friday is shopping day for us. The boys have to be taken to the shop because neither of them have passed their driving license test yet. On a Thursday evening, while Joyce is watching the news, because I know everybody should be interested in current affairs, but I’m not, I will write the menu for the following week and then every day I will check, so I’ve got out what I need.

Tips for Starting Your Own Garden

30:16 Emily: As we conclude, we’ve talked a lot about like cooking tips, which I think is awesome, but do you have any tips for let’s say another PhD student or busy person, busy PhD, who’s interested in maybe dipping their toe into gardening? Not doing the full ten year plan that you have, but where would you get started? Maybe even for someone who just could do container gardening for example?

20:41 Jane: People would say start with the simple things, like potatoes and tomatoes. I would say yes, they are great things to start with, but don’t just grow things because they’re easy. Grow things because you like them. Okay. If all you’ve got is a window sill and you like spices, grow ginger and garlic. You can grow ginger from just planting a knob of the little head of ginger you buy from the supermarket. And if you’re patient and you water it, well, it will grow. I suppose my big thing for gardening is, as with everything that we try to live by, only do the bits you love or start with the bits you love until you get the bug.

31:38 Emily: Thank you for that suggestion. I don’t do any growing of my own food or anything right now. I live in an apartment so it’s inherently challenging, but I do love garlic and so I really liked the idea of having a little container in the window sill and having fresh garlic because I don’t really buy fresh garlic right now even though I love using it. It’s that you just use a little bit at a time. So, thank you for that suggestion.

Living a Frugal, Yet Enjoyable Life

32:00 Emily: Anything else you’d like to add before we sign off?

32:04 Jane: I think I’d go back to what I said earlier which is that I was a very serious person before I met my wife. I’m very lucky in that she will always see my funny side. Financial balance is tricky. If you treat it as a challenge that it’s almost certain that you’re going to overcome, and therefore it becomes a bit of a game, then it all becomes a lot more fun. And why are we here if not to be enjoyed and enjoyable?

32:43 Emily: Yeah, I do like that shift, because really, if you’re living on, let’s say a fixed, fairly low income, like you said, there’s certain challenges or certain realities to that, but your attitude towards it goes so far to make it bearable, enjoyable, horrible, whichever way. It can really go a lot of different directions just depending on how you approach it.

33:10 Jane: And however busy you are and however passionate you are about your studies, because we are after all dealing with PhD students or people who are maybe doing a postdoc even, try and put something aside for another passion, whether that’s playing the guitar or walking your neighbor’s dog or whatever. Anything you do that you’re passionate about, will benefit the PhD as well.

33:43 Emily: Thank you for adding that. I think PhDs can, some of them can get caught in this trap of 100% of my effort has to go towards my studies. And as you said, having some balance is good for you. It’s good for your work. You can’t be so 100% into that. It’s not healthy.

34:02 Jane: I sometimes get accused of telling people to abandon their responsibilities and that’s not true. I have very high sense of duty, but actually, if we don’t love it, especially if we are serving somebody else like helping to try and bring up the boys or doing some charity stuff, if we don’t love it, we’re not blessing the people we’re serving. So the more we love what we do, the more we’re not only blessing ourselves, but we’re blessing well the people around us. And I try to live like that. It’s not always easy because I’m not a naturally positive person, but I’m really lucky in that I have a wife, and who particularly around the boys, who is almost always positive. And you know, if you’re not surrounded by positive people and you need that positive energy, go and find somebody who is.

35:04 Emily: Yeah, thank you for that. Can you share with us your Twitter handle or where else people might find you so that they can get some doses of that.

35:12 Jane: So my personal one is, I’ll just spell out, is at J A N E, capital C, O, capital S, E. So @JaneCoSe and our business one is @CoomberSewell. But I have said the business one is slightly neglected because I’m so busy trying to finish this PhD at the moment.

35:32 Emily: Okay. Well, thank you for sharing that with us and thank you so much for joining me today.

35:36 Jane: Thank you very much for inviting me. It’s been lovely.

Outtro

35:39 Emily: Listeners. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode’s show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to PFforPhDs.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to sell without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the free music archives and it’s shared under CC by NC.

How to Advocate for Yourself and Your Income with Respect to Conference Travel, Job Offers, Fellowships, and More

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Mallory Smith, a staff scientist at a large public research university. Mallory learned to advocate for herself with respect to her income during graduate school. Her message to graduate students is that they are not merely students but professionals within their fields and should be treated as such, and the skill of being assertive but not aggressive is useful across a lifetime. Mallory and Emily discuss negotiation, where to find funds to pay for research and conference travel, and Mallory’s experience tutoring undergraduate physics students as a side hustle.

Links Mentioned in This Episode

PhD income negotiation

Teaser

00:00 Mallory: When you’re an undergrad student, you’re a student. When you’re a grad student, they still make you feel like you’re a student, but you have a degree and the work that you’re doing is furthering the objectives and benefiting the university and you really do deserve to be compensated for what you do.

Introduction

00:24 Emily: Welcome to the personal finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode seven, and today my guest is Dr. Mallory Smith, a staff scientist at a large public research university. Mallory has a message for graduate students. You deserve to get paid and asking to be financially compensated, doesn’t have to be gauche. We talked through several applications of this mindset from rectifying a lapse in pay to finding creative sources of travel funding, to negotiating a job offer. Mallory also shares her experience side hustling as a tutor for undergraduate students in physics. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Mallory Smith.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:15 Emily: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Mallory Smith. Mallory came to me with several ideas that she wanted to speak about from her own personal life, all relating to income, so that’s what we’re going to cover today. Income as a PhD trainee. So Mallory, will you please introduce yourself to our audience a little bit further?

01:33 Mallory: Sure. I got my PhD in 2016, officially 2017. I was a postdoc for about two years and now I’m a staff scientist. I’m on the staff. We use the term staff scientists to say that you’re promoted and I haven’t been promoted, so I always add that disclaimer, it’s a new position for me. I went to a small state school for undergrad and to a larger, but not very large, private university for grad school, so that’s kind of definitely colored how I see income and what opportunities I’m able to talk about because it’s defined by what I’ve been exposed to.

A Message for Grad Students: Practice Self-Advocacy

02:20 Emily: Yeah, definitely. We’re looking for your personal angle on this here. So you came to me saying, I have a message, I have a message for PhD trainees. What is that message?

02:32 Mallory: So I have had a couple of experiences in grad school and a couple of friends in grad school. One particular story stands out. I have a friend whose professor was just absent-minded, and completely forgot to figure out summer funding for her. She kind of had assumed that he was on top of it and he completely wasn’t, so it got down to the last minute and it’s like, “Oh by the way, next week you’re not going to be paid anymore because I don’t have summer funding for you. Oh, well.” And she said, “Oh, okay.” The deadlines for everything had passed. And I’m like, “You need to tell the department,” because our department was really trying to make sure that they got some funding, somehow, for every single one of their students, whether it be a summer TA position or working something else out, and she didn’t want to ask because she was afraid that was passed all the deadlines and you know, I think she kind of felt like, “Oh, it was my responsibility have figured this out earlier,” or something like that.

03:48 Mallory: The thing is that when you’re an undergrad student, you’re a student. When you’re a grad student, they still make you feel like you’re a student, but you have a degree. And the work that you’re doing is furthering the objectives and benefiting the university. Whether you’re training and especially when you’re presenting at conferences and when you’re doing any TA positions or anything like that, you are furthering the objectives of the university and you are an employee of the university and you really do deserve to be compensated for what you do. That also is a piece that I think departments can use some help in, in realizing where their gaps are. Because if you don’t feel valued, you’re not going to be as productive or as enthusiastic about where you’re at.

04:46 Mallory: So for example, with that particular professor, he had grad students sporadically and I think the network of communication can get lost, the thread can get lost. If you are letting your department know to say, “Oh yeah, that professor, they have that problem, they’ve done this to four other grad students, we have a backup option for you.” Or the department doesn’t know this is going on and say, “Oh, okay, now I know”, and the department chair or the heads can look out maybe for future grad students and prevent that from happening.

05:23 Emily: I have so many things that I want to say about this topic as well. It’s such a strange relationship that graduate students have with their advisors and also with their departments and universities. And it varies so widely across different universities and across different departments and with different students in different advisors. During what you were saying just there that you’re an employee is only the case for some graduate students, right? So many, many graduate students are employees and should absolutely be empowered by what you just said, that they bring value to the university in one way or another. That’s why they’re being employed and if their employment should lapse by accident, of course that’s something that should be rectified. But anyway, it’s such a strange relationship between the trainee and the institution because, in some cases you’re treated more like a student or a trainee and in some cases, you’re treated more like an employee. And it usually seems that the university wants to do whatever is in their best interest — treat you as a student in one case, employee in another case whenever it benefits them and it’s a real shame, but it does fall to the student or to the trainee, in many cases, to push back against that and it shouldn’t be that way. Like in your example of this, the student’s advisor should have been looking out for her, should have been on top of things, but in that case, he wasn’t and so it did fall to her, unfortunately, but it did.

06:59 Emily: I observed something similar actually when I was in graduate school. This happened to a postdoc that I knew that her pay just lapsed for several months. And she was an employee, so I don’t know, maybe she was switching positions or something. I’m not sure what happened actually. I think it had to do with being a visa issue because she was an international postdoc. But anyway, she went unpaid for several months while this was being sorted out by our, by her advisor and like you said with your friend, she was kind of OK with it. I was shocked and appalled when I found out that was happening, but she didn’t really want to rock the boat. And maybe that was because it had to do with visa stuff. I don’t know. But in any case, it did unfortunately fall to her. I’m sure this happens to a lot of different people, what should these students and postdocs do if they find themselves in this kind of situation where they’re kind of being taken advantage of, although maybe it’s unintentional, and it’s not necessarily malicious, but it’s just bad management?

08:07 Mallory: I think it’s departments and professors, people, they take the path of least resistance to getting the thing crossed off their list. I think when you’re a grad student, you have to start looking out for yourself to some degree. There should be better policies in place at a lot of universities to prevent a lot of this from happening but until we’re there, I think when you start, you have to know what your parameters space is. Your offer letter will tell you how many months of funding you’re guaranteed. I think, it’s been a while, I started grad school in 2010, so I think my offer letter said that I was employed 11 out of 12 months, but that it was nine months of like serious pay and then two months of summer pay to be covered by the professor. There was some language in there that you would know ahead of time. Also, if your professor is someone who’s not paying attention to deadlines and not being forthright in communicating things with you, you kind of have to take that on yourself to find out in March if you have summer funding because that leaves you not enough time to work something out.

09:40 Emily: Unfortunately, again, these advisors are very rarely trained in any kind of management. They’re often kind of flying blind and doing whatever they’ve done in the past and it’s really an unhealthy situation, something that really, really desperately needs reform within academia. Yet, this is the system that we’re working with right now and students and trainees do find themselves there. So in the case of your friend, in the case of my friend, how could they have phrased this request so that they’re likely to have it fulfilled but also not feeling whatever is holding them back from asking the first place? Maybe they didn’t want to feel pushy. Maybe they didn’t want to draw attention to the mistake of their supervisor. How could they have maybe tried to rectify this?

10:30 Mallory: If it’s hard to start that conversation, you know it’s intimidating to make an appointment with the department chair and say, “I’m lodging this formal complaint that I’m not getting paid and I’m angry.” That’s a very hard approach. That’s not what I would personally take. That’s definitely not one my friend would be comfortable with taking. So I’d say find someone that has a low barrier of entry to talk to. Departments have a lot of other people beyond the administration, the secretaries and other people who have been working with the department, sometimes for decades — they’re often in this position that they’re not someone directly responsible for your management as a grad student, but they know the department. You can sort of start to find the people who know the things in the department. In my graduate school, we had someone who was really looking out for graduate students and you could go very easily to her and say, “Hey, like I’m having this issue, how should I approach it?” and get some real feedback that wouldn’t be going all the way and lodging a complaint. Also, older grad students; if there’s an older grad student in your group with that professor, say, “This is happening to me did this happened to you, what do you think I should do?” and you can kind of get some tips on the least “causing the boat to rock” way of getting what you really deserve.

12:07 Emily: Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, in my department as well, when I was in graduate school, we had an excellent administrative assistant who was handling all the graduate student’s stuff. And she, as you were saying, was really an advocate for graduate students. I feel like I could have easily gone to her and said, “I’m having this problem. What do I do about it?” And maybe that is escalating it to the DGS and doing something formal and she would know, or maybe it’s as simple as, she’s just going to go have a conversation with someone and it’s going to be fixed, no problem. I don’t know how it could be resolved, but that person would know. Identifying your resources within the department, absolutely, I think that’s a great idea. Even if you don’t know how to do that, as you said, to ask an older student or someone else who’s sort of serving kind of as a mentor to you or that you look up to within the lab or within the department and they’re going to know who that person is to go to. So I think that’s an excellent way to approach it.

Self-Advocacy Post-Grad School

13:00 Emily: I can definitely see how this skill of advocating for yourself when necessary can apply to post PhD life. Isn’t this the purpose of being a student? We’re learning how to do thing. We’re gaining knowledge and gaining skills and so forth. And some of these soft skills, like speaking up when something isn’t right, are very valuable to learn within graduate school and can be used later. Do you have any thoughts about using this skill of self-advocacy post training phase?

13:34 Mallory: Typically PhD programs, in my experience, which is a narrow set field of physics, is narrowly defined, like here is the tuition that graduate students in this department get. That’s it. I didn’t know this ahead of time, but during graduate school, I learned there’s other ways to ask for money. The postdoc I applied for, it also had like a set salary — this is what we paid postdocs, that that’s it, but someone else I know actually asked for additional travel funding and they were able to give that to that person, so they had their own travel budget to go to whatever conferences they wanted to. They didn’t need approval or to worry about funding regulation, like it has to apply to the grant that’s paying for it. They could just pick a conference and go. That’s a type of perk that you can ask for.

14:38 Mallory: I think some postdocs do allow you to negotiate for salary. Then every job post-postdoc, maybe not every but most every job post-postdoc, is the negotiate-for-your-salary type of position. The graduate school I went to had a big business school and it was big on their undergrads being successful and so they had a lot of professional development events about how important it was to negotiate for your salary. They could just show you this graph that if you ask for an additional X thousand dollars in your salary now, the impact over your career is substantial because when you’re starting out, the next position you go to, the salary will be based off what you were paid previously.

15:36 Mallory: When I applied for my job, I had been, for years hearing, “You have to negotiate for your salary” and I’m like, “Oh God, they’re offering me such a great salary. I’m so happy with it, but like I feel like I have to negotiate.” So I went to one of my mentors, my boss, and I said, “Hey, I’m interested in negotiating.” And they were like, “Well, typically you have some skill that you can say, ‘Hey, I can bring this and you should pay me more because I’m bringing this skill’” I didn’t have anything like that but I actually ended up crafting this response letter to my offer and saying, “Oh, I just looked it up and I was wondering if a salary increase to this amount would be possible.” And they actually came back and said, well, not to that amount, but to a slightly lower amount that was still higher than what they had a base offered, and that felt really cool of course, but hopefully over the long run, that’s the type of impact that is meaningful, in terms of salary.

16:48 Mallory: When you go to negotiate for your salary, there are web sites like glassdoor.com and other places where you can find out the range of salaries that are possible for your position. Typically, there’s a lower end and a higher end, and they have a cap. They can’t pay you higher than this amount for this position. That’s it. You always want to ask to be in the top half of that bracket and they’ll put you somewhere, hopefully in the middle, but not the lowest part of that bracket in that negotiation. But just kind of note, I knew when I was asking that I was not asking for an exorbitant thing and also, I was intimidated because I knew everyone that I would be working with already. When you ask for money, you’re not asking from the people that you’re working with. You’re asking from the university and really from HR. You shouldn’t feel like, “Oh, I’m asking for some special treatment that I don’t deserve.” It’s really a linear, top down thing from the administration and just ask. We have this sort of negative connotation about asking about money and talking about money, but if you just simply ask and say, “Hey, I was wondering if this is possible” and you’re not being aggressive about it at all. that’s not, that’s not an aggressive question to ask.

18:22 Emily: I think you’re exactly right and I’m so glad that you shared the exact phrasing that you use because it’s one sentence, the way you phrased it. It’s so easy to throw that up there and if you didn’t have what you felt was justification like, “Oh, I’m bringing X, Y, Z skills to the table,” you can still ask, especially if it’s in line with whatever the ranges that you know are appropriate for that position. I think that’s a pretty standard thing is that you’re looking at taking a new position and you look up what people are paid and you have a range there and if your offer is coming in on the lower end of that range, just ask for, as you said, the higher end of that range and maybe they’ll meet somewhere in the middle.

19:01 Emily: My husband did the exact same thing when he negotiated his current industry position. He just said, “Hey, I looked up the salary range for this position in the city that I’ll be moving to and it looks like this is a fair number. Can you do that?” And they said, “No, but we’ll bring it up by a certain degree.” That was really successful and once you get over the mental hurdle of doing it, the actual phrasing of the one or two sentences is really not like that much. But as you said, it pays off so much every single year for the rest of your career going forward in the compounding of the raises that you’ll be getting. It’s the same way that compound interest works with investments or reverse ways with debt works exactly the same with your salary to the degree that your new salary is based off any previous salaries. I just love that you said that.

19:55 Emily: I also want to point out that negotiation is more rare but is possible at the postdoc and even the graduate student levels. I wanted to point the listeners to two websites I have that function similarly to Glassdoor, which are PostdocSalaries.com and PhDStipends.com and so there you can just go and look up what are postdocs or PhD students being paid at that university or in this field or what have you and get an idea of whether your offer is livable, whether it’s more or less than other people in the same city are making. You can even, especially as a postdoc, start using that as justification for negotiating your salary.  I actually do have a question within the survey in postdocsalaries.com did you negotiate your salary or benefits? And as you mentioned earlier, a lot of people forget about negotiating benefits. Maybe that salary number can’t move, but something else on the side can move. Because the thing is that when you take on an employee, like you said, the salary ranges are set above levels than just your advisor that you’re going to, it’s a few levels above that. The thing is that the cost of taking on an employee is actually much more than just the salary. They have to pay taxes for you, they have to pay benefits for you, and so asking for an increase in salary, you may be like, “Oh, I’m asking for a 5% or 10% increase in the salary,” but that’s not a 5% or 10% increase in the total package that they’re taking on, by hiring you, it really is a smaller number to them then it looks like to you. Keep that in mind when you’re going to negotiate.

21:33 Mallory: When you get a new job, you get this salary offer and it’s more than you’ve made before because if you’re coming from grad school, anything’s going to be, should be more than what you made as a grad student. When you get out of grad school, you have to calibrate yourself to not be like all blown away by that number because typically, they’re going to offer you the low end of the bracket. It’s more efficient for them.

Commercial

21:59 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs and other early career PhDs, for universities, institutes and conferences, associations, etc. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs like taxes, investing, career transitions and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, but you can find more information and ways to contact me at PFforPhDs.com/speaking, that’s P F F O R P H D S.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

Finding Sources of Travel Funding

22:48 Emily: You mentioned a little bit ago that a friend negotiated for some travel funding. What ways have you gone out and gotten extra funding? Or what ways have you seen other people do that?

23:08 Mallory: I know that for example, the American Physical Society often has a pot of money for helping grad students attend conferences. You can apply andI think the one that I knew about gave everybody who applied and they accepted $300 toward traveling to this conference. And it’s not much, but it helps cover some of the difference,

23:40 Emily: Especially if it’s something you are going to pay out of pocket anyway, that’s a big help

23:45 Mallory: The other thing is that departments sometimes are strapped for cash and I think that if you’re running up and you’re asking for money and they really are like, “we don’t have money, we’re sorry, we really don’t have money,” they will say that and it will be clear. But a lot of times departments have pockets of money around and if you know to ask, this will become accessible to you, but you have to know to ask and sometimes they’re not advertising that part as well. I know that for certain universities, they often have some study abroad relationship with one country in particular, so if you want to go to, if there’s a conference and it happens to also be in that country and your university already has a relationship with sending students there, even if it’s undergraduate students, there might be a pipeline for getting funding. That’s pretty easy. I got travel funding from a private fund that came from the donation that existed for grad students to travel internationally and present their work or attend a workshop and learn, and I didn’t know about that until my advisor said, “Hey, I don’t have money to send you to France, but you should apply for this thing.” And that worked out. Then there’s pockets of professional development funding around that, if you’re presenting your work, is accessible to you. The other thing is that sometimes graduate student unions have money set aside for helping grad students with this. I think our graduate student union had a some sort of rolling application that you can apply to get a couple hundred dollars towards travel and preference given to students that haven’t gone anywhere yet, that kind of thing. There’s a lot of weird avenues that you can find out there. There’s also cross-disciplinary or interdisciplinary types of collaborations and alliances that if you’re doing anything related to them you can reach out and say, “Hey, I would like to go to this conference that you guys are holding because I’m doing this thing, it’s related. Can you help me cover some of that cost?”

26:08 Emily: Thank you so much for listing all those different, as you said, little pockets of money that might be accessible to you if you have the secret key, the unlock code, to inquiring about them. It’s too bad that this is kind of secret grad school knowledge that has to be passed by word of mouth instead of sort of being out there and clear. And maybe it is clear in some places, but this is another one of those reasons, these are the ones that you’ve like observed that were relevant for your university and your department and they may or may not be similar with somewhere else, but hopefully if a newer grad student or a newer post doc entering a new place can ask some people a few years ahead, “Oh, I’m looking for funding to go to this conference. I ran into a barrier, there is no more pools of money in the standard place. Do you know how people have gotten funding.” Just asking those questions of maybe there’s some kind of work around here. I love all the examples that you threw out. I hadn’t heard of half of them before, so that’s wonderful and everyone can try those. But also, still ask your peers, what are the secrets to this place, these funding pools. Hopefully, if you ask enough people, you’ll get the right answer. Especially, go to people who have been traveling internationally, who have clearly done the thing that you want to do, and ask them how they went about doing that.

27:29 Mallory: I think a lot of times during our PhD we’re in our bubble and a lot of the things that are unique for us are not unique for the department and not unique for graduate students. You’re probably not asking for something new that’s never been done before. The other thing I’d like to mention is professors who have been professors for a while think about this differently. I think they kind of have the mentality of it’s ridiculous not to get compensated and of course, why wouldn’t you ask? So they’re not saying, “Hey, by the way, I can pay for if you ever want to do something like this, this or this.” It’s not because they’re trying to keep it a secret from you. It’s just, it doesn’t occur to them that you wouldn’t know about this already, which is crazy, right? If you’re a new student, why would you know? But they get kind of stuck in their experience within their bubble of what they see and what they deal with and how they think about salaries and funding, which is on a whole different level.

Tutoring as a Side-Hustle

28:36 Emily: Going back to your first point about simply asking and advocating for yourself in a very gentle way can be done with respect to this additional travel funding and so forth. Another topic that you wanted to bring up was regarding side hustling. Can you tell us about your experience with side hustling in graduate school?

29:04 Mallory: My side-hustling was a tutoring, so I didn’t aggressively side hustle. I didn’t need to really supplement my income, but it was nice to. Tutoring is something that one, there’s always a need for tutors for freshmen level physics; and two, if you look up what the typical tutoring charge per hour is, if you have your bachelor’s, that level is typically $25 to $30 or so, and then if you’ve got your master’s or your PhD, it’s $30, $40, $50 an hour. A couple of things with that. One, I hate charging students that are struggling with physics, like, “Okay, yeah I can help you but it’s going to cost you,” and so I never charged the whole amount that I should have, but I learned something in getting to the point where I was comfortable with charging: one, the students that were undergrads at my graduate school, their parents were paying their tuition bills, so I was not making some student broke, they were able to afford it; two, when I was getting compensated for my time, $20, $30 an hour, I was very happy to prepare for that well and to do a good job. Once I had some experience tutoring, because I went in with very little experience and I always joke I have to write the students I first tutored and say, I’m really sorry, I learned how to tutor with you and you didn’t learn any physics. But I learned after! But that’s okay. The other thing is that when you get stuck in graduate school and you can sit down at the end of the day and help someone learn physics, that’s really gratifying. I got stuck in my research, I struggled with my classes and being able to help someone else was like, okay, I’m not a failure as a physics person. I’m clearly benefiting younger students.

31:11 Emily: I think that tutoring, I would say it’s the number one thought of side hustle for a grad student, because clearly as you were just saying, you do have something to teach. You have a great deal of expertise in some areas, even if it doesn’t feel like that on a daily basis, once you can look back a little bit, you’ve really come a long ways within your field, and so it’s so accessible to be able to teach people coming along behind you by a few years. The other thing about charging students and feeling a little bit weird about that is that you have to remember that this is above and beyond all the resources that the university itself is transferring to those students. They have the class that they’re in, they have the TA for that class, they have their professor, they have maybe, at least at the college that I went to, there was sort of a free tutoring center available that you could just make appointments out for various subjects. Being a private tutor — well, they’ve already maybe either gone through those resources and haven’t found them sufficient or they don’t want to use them for whatever reason. They’re willing to pay someone for their time, for the individual attention, whatever it is. Just to keep that in mind when you are going into that situation that you’re charging for. They already have a lot of resources available to them that are included with what they’re paying already for tuition. They have decided that they want something above and beyond that.

32:36 Emily: I wanted to ask you about the difference between how you distinguish yourself as a TA versus a tutor. And maybe you weren’t teaching during that time. Was there ever a time when you were both TAing and tutoring and how you sort of draw a distinction there? Presumably, you are not tutoring the students who are enrolled in your class.

32:54 Mallory: Our department actually, they had a list of tutors that they just said they gave the undergraduates and these people said they’re interested in tutoring, contact them. But you were not allowed to tutor someone that you’re TAing. That’s probably a good rule, because then they’re paying you to get preferential treatment in some sense of it. The other thing is, when I got to be on my feet about tutoring, I would have more students that could contact me than I could handle. I can’t tutor more than five or six students in a given week. That’s a significant time investment. But what you can do is try to get all students that are in the same course so that you’re not having to cover new material. It would get to be, I do one hour of prep and then I tutor four people because it’s just bang, bang, bang. It’s the same material.

34:03 Emily: That’s a really good idea. I hadn’t thought of when you have such a demand for your skills, it makes sense that you could then select among the potential clients that you have. The other thing I’ll say to that is raise your rates. If you have more demand, raise your rates. Standard thing. Did it ever occur to you to do group tutoring? Would that have been possible when you were already lining up these students in the same course?

34:31 Mallory: Yeah, I had done some group tutoring and I think that, at least for my style of tutoring, more than two people becomes really less one on one. My one on one rate was one thing. My group rate was like lower per person because I just think that the experience that I could offer in that environment was a little bit less. But that’s a good way to do it if there’s a lot of demand and you feel like you want to really help the students. That’s a good way to minimize the impact on your time to help the maximum number of people.

35:13 Emily: It’s a little bit of a win-win: lower the rates for them, you raise your hourly rate for yourself. Don’t just split the same rate among everyone, you’re working harder. Or raise it and then split it.

35:25 Mallory: Yeah, raising it and then splitting it, absolutely. But then also, I think, at least the undergrads that I encountered, they were like, “Well no, we’re paying for one on tutoring experience. I don’t care how much it costs the, I’d rather have that than that group thing.” I couldn’t really convince them to make the group thing a thing, but that’s okay.

35:48 Emily: Yeah, that makes total sense. Well, I’m really glad that your department made that easy for you because often when I think about tutoring, I guess I don’t really think about going through the departments first, but that’s a very, very natural match. If the departments are willing to have a running list you know grad student tutors available, then that’s great. Did your advisor know about your tutoring side hustle? You were on a list somewhere so he or she maybe could have known?

36:17 Mallory: Yeah, definitely. I’m sure my advisor knew. It was something that I did after hours and so I didn’t consider it like I need to ask for permission for this. It’s my time. Also, since the department encouraged it, there’s some advisors, I’m sure that would discourage you thinking about anything other than your own research, but it was sort of okay because it was normalized.

36:48 Emily: Yeah, I guess I would say for an environment where it hasn’t been normalized, like maybe that list isn’t available or you don’t really see other grad students working with undergrads at the same institution, tutoring is still available. It’s just you might have to look to a different population like in your city, like high schoolers or students at another university or community college. Or do it within your own university, but keep it a little more quiet. There are just a lot of options available for tutoring. And like you were saying earlier, it’s not really necessarily a distraction from your research if it’s reinforcing basic principles for you and improving your teaching skills and improving your confidence within your own field or whatever it is. I feel like tutoring is one of those side hustles that’s both easily accessible and potentially has benefits in your primary professional life, not just, “Okay, I’m earning an extra income here.”

37:43 Mallory: Yeah, absolutely.

Any Last Words of Advice?

37:45 Emily: To close out, Mallory, what advice do you have for a grad student or postdoc who’s looking to increase her income?

37:53 Mallory: I’d say find out the resources that are available in your department. Find out every opportunity for getting expenses covered. If you’re traveling to a conference, typically there’s some expense coverage for doing that traveling. That includes the meals when you’re traveling, and just sort of knowing what’s reasonable. There’s always fellowships and things to apply for and my advice is to apply. I wanted to apply for a fellowship and I applied for one and I didn’t get it. I didn’t feel like I really deserved a fellowship. I had a friend who applied for a different fellowship and she was encouraging me to apply for that fellowship also. And I said, “Oh, no, no, no, I don’t qualify for this.” And she applied for it and she got it. I don’t think our background experiences were so different. You looked at our records on paper, we had a lot of similar things. Don’t close yourself off to opportunities because of where you think you’re at or what you think you’re worth. Go for everything and let them tell you. You might be surprised.

39:29 Mallory: The other thing is just doing everything. If you care about maximizing your income, minimize your expenses. Don’t get a Netflix account on your own, share it with 10 friends. If you can bundle your car insurance into a six-month payment or yearly payment that’s on auto pay, you can get significant discounts. Other weird things like, do you ever need a rental car? Because if you are considered in any way an employee of the university, there are often just global discounts with major car rental companies that you can say, “Hey, and I work for this university,” and even if it’s for personal travel, they’ll still say, “Oh, okay, well we can give you an 18% discount.”

40:19 Mallory: I never really went out to maximize my personal, wealth. I just wanted to sort of do well and, and keep my head above water. I think that if you really want to maximize your wealth, then you’re the expert in providing all of the information for how to do that. But you don’t have to maximize everything in order to just do well financially. I’m happy with where I’m at financially. I could be somewhere else entirely, but I’m doing well and that’s all I need.

41:06 Emily: I think finding that point for you where you can have whatever income level it is, where you feel comfortable and happy and if you can have a job that allows you to have that income level and you can feel fulfilled professionally and have the lifestyle that you want, that’s a really sweet spot. Right? I think because we’re speaking to academics, people who have been in academia at least in the past or maybe in the present, I think it’s a pretty well, you know, shared value that being wealthy or being incredibly rich is not the number one priority for everyone, because you wouldn’t have made the life choices that you have at this point if that were the case, right? You would have gone into high finance or you know, high tech or whatever. You would’ve made different choices. But I think what you’re saying is exactly right. If you can find that professional fulfillment, know what the standard things are in that area and just try to optimize where you can within that. I think, for example, your goal as a student or as a postdoc should be to not pay for your own professional travel. Your goal should be to not pay for any component of that out of pocket. You should find funding to cover completely. Now if you fall a little bit short and you end up paying for your meals on one trip or what have you, that’s okay, that’s acceptable. But you should just be trying and striving to find the funds that will cover that. That’s a small way that you can maximize your income/minimize your expenses. After all, this is professional related travel, right? It should be covered by someone else other than you.

42:44 Mallory: I was shocked when I was the young student at traveling and I didn’t know that this was sort of expected people were like, “Why would you be paying for anything? You’re taking this trip because you’re asked to for your career. You shouldn’t be paying for anything.” And I thought, “Oh, you paid for my flight. That’s more than enough. I shouldn’t ask for more.” No. When I went to my first trip to go to this other lab for a couple months and do this research project, they said, “Okay, here and you get $5 a day for food.” And I said, “Okay.” And another student from my group joined and said, “This is ridiculous.” And immediately called up our advisor and said, “They’re giving us $5 a day for food. This is completely unreasonable.” And it immediately became like $10 or $15 a day. So it’s the squeaky wheel gets the grease, a little bit, with stuff like that

43:41 Emily: Well, Mallory, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today and for sharing your insights into these areas.

43:48 Mallory: Thanks very much for having me Emily. It was a lot of fun. I’m happy to talk. Thank you very much.

Outtro

43:49 Emily: Listeners. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode’s show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to PFforPhDs.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to sell without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Poddington Bear from the free music archives and it’s shared under CC by NC.

This PhD Healed Her Scarcity Money Mindset Using a Goal-Setting Framework (Part 2)

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Lucie Bland, about her financial journey from graduate school to self-employment. Lucie was severely underpaid as a PhD student, and she felt such guilt and shame around spending that she became terrified of money. Her money mindset didn’t improve when her income increased several-fold as a postdoc, and it wasn’t until she discovered the Good-Better-Best goal-setting framework that she started to heal her relationship with money. She now describes herself as a money boss. In this second half of the conversation, Lucie describes the Good-Better-Best goal-setting framework and how she applied it to personal finance as well as other areas of life. She also shares how mastering her personal finances enabled her to take the leap into self-employment.

Listen to part 1 of this interview!

Links Mentioned in the Episode

PhD self-employed money boss

Teaser

00:00 Lucie: Money is so interesting because it’s where you have a conflict between all your limiting beliefs and your trapped emotion and your resources that are linked to survival. That’s why money triggers our fear centers so much. It’s the modern-day saber-toothed tiger that’s coming to eat us.

Introduction

00:24 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season four, episode six, and today my guest is Dr. Lucie Bland, a self-employed PhD living in Australia. Lucie has such an amazing story to tell that I’ve split it into two episodes. Last week’s and this one in this episode, Lucie shares how she relied on the Good-Better-Best, or GBB, framework when she decided to become self-employed. She also illustrates her current practice of personal finance now that she is a self-described “money boss.” She proposes many ways PhDs can use the GBB framework with respect to income, personal finance, research, and other areas of life. Without further ado, here’s the second part of my interview with Dr. Lucie Bland.

Lucie’s Self-Employment Journey: Using GBB

01:19 Emily: Okay. Now we’re going to resume talking a bit more about your self-employment journey. So you’ve already told us that you went through this period of re-evaluation where you’re taking time off from your postdoc, then you went back part-time to your postdoc, which didn’t work out very well because it’s very difficult to do research part-time. And you also had a side job as an editor for some time. But then you were saying that you sort of realized that you really wanted to be self-employed and wanted to have more control over your work, control of your schedule, I assume that self-employment would offer you. So let’s talk more about this GBB model and how you used it in this journey towards self-employment.

02:02 Lucie: Yes. Basically, when I was using GBB in the budgeting I realized that my “Good” goal, or my minimum viable income, is 33,000 Australian dollars, which is actually not that much. It basically means that I need to make $50,000 minus tax, which is a very realistic start for a business. And especially kind of as we talked about before, I still have a lot of savings. So doing these highly-paid postdocs enabled me to have the financial security to then go on and do my business without taking a loan, without taking a lot of risks in many ways. And so using that GBB framework enabled me to make a really intentional decision and actually a very low-risk decision to start my own business.

Two Forms of Runway: Savings and Part-Time Work

02:56 Emily: Yeah, so I was highly involved in the personal finance community, the personal finance blogosphere in 2011 to 2015, I would say. And I watched a lot of other people in that space move from being employees to being self-employed. And ultimately, I did this as well. And the term that we used for what you did was to give yourself a runway. So you gave yourself two kinds of runways. The first was by having a good amount of savings from having that higher income for a number of years. So you knew that you could have no income coming in for some period of time and you would be fine. Or you know, a lower than ideal amount of income. And the other runway you gave yourself was working this part-time position, having the side job, experimenting with how much you would need to work for other people but still be able to fulfill what you wanted to do and ultimately you could drop those things off as you were able to take off with your business income and no longer need those need the runway.

03:52 Emily: Right. So, two forms of runway. Just for anyone considering self-employment or considering maybe even doing another job that’s lower-paid. Any kind of transition like that, giving yourself some runway. Here’s a great idea, whether it’s through savings or side jobs or whatever it might be. Yeah. Anything else you want to say about using that model and your transition to self-employment?

Taking the Time to Experiment and Make Mistakes

04:16 Lucie: Yes. And you know, I think you make very good points about using the two different types of runway. And for me, in a way where doing the postdoc part-time worked really well in that it gave me time to know what I wanted to do. Because it did take me two years, two whole years to figure out what I really wanted to do. And that’s very typical of any career transition if you read the career-coaching literature. So it gave me time to set up my business and know what I wanted to do. It gave me that time where I was only working part-time hours to set things up behind the scenes, make lots of mistakes, go down lots of rabbit holes and not have that pressure of things having to work out immediately in the sense that, now, I’m in my first year of business. But really, I’ve been doing this for almost two years. I know how things work a little bit better. So again, probably a theme that’s coming through this interview is that I’m actually a little bit risk-averse in many ways. But I was much more comfortable making that decision to jump into my business. Having had just a little bit of legs under that idea and a little bit of knowledge, some numbers through my GBB goals and my budgeting other than flying by the seat of my pants, which is not really me.

05:32 Emily: Really what you’re doing, in all those different approaches that you just mentioned, is giving self-employment or your business, the ultimate business idea that you settled on, the best chance it could possibly have. Because like you said, when you’re first starting out with a new venture, you have to do a little bit of experimentation. You have to bumble around a little bit and make some mistakes. And if you have given yourself no runway and it has to work within two months or whatever it is, you have to make enough money to start sustaining your lifestyle within that short period of time. It doesn’t give your business really the room to evolve and grow and succeed. And so, yeah, I definitely would say that if you’re serious and very, very aspirational about becoming self-employed, you need to build that into your plan, right. Build some bumbling around and some mistakes into your plan.

06:21 Lucie: Yeah.

What Does Your Business Look Like Now?

06:22 Emily: And so what did you ultimately come to, you know, through this period of experimentation, what does your business look like now?

06:29 Lucie: Now I run an editing and coaching business and I’ve got three arms to my business. I’ve got editing, coaching and writing workshops. And the advantage with professional services businesses, like yours and mine, is that they have very low expenses, and in a way, they’re quite low risk. They do require some work in terms of to make it more leveraged or passive. You know, I need to evolve my business model in terms of I can take holidays and not have to be working all the time. Because otherwise, I’m just my own boss that’s still the slave to working every day. But for me, it’s a much better balance.

07:09 Lucie: And I would say that I definitely went from surviving to thriving. And that’s where being really intentional and self-knowledge is critical in the sense that when I did this career-coaching with this What Color Is Your Parachute?* book, one of the things I realized was that creativity and freedom or some of my core values. If I’m not getting this in a job, then being self-employed, you have ultimate control, you have ultimate freedom. And so there are lots of reasons why for me this is the best choice. And I think for people who would be listening to the podcast, then any self-knowledge that you have about your own values, about your own preferred work environments can only enhance your decision-making. Regardless of whether you want to continue in academia or do something else. It’s like your minimum viable income, but for your personal happiness.

[* This is an affiliate link. Thank you for supporting PF for PhDs!]

Professional and Personal Development

08:06 Emily: Yeah, exactly. I did a lot during graduate school. I would always pay attention when the career center or professional development stuff sent out emails about workshops and events they were doing. And I was always like, yeah, if I can go, I’m going to go, and did a lot similar to you. Like self-exploration, guided exercises, little tests and stuff to help me figure out like what was the work environment that I wanted and so forth. And it was funny because at that time, it didn’t at all occur to me that self-employment would’ve been a good fit. And yet, I’m really enjoying it now. I’ll link to a post in the show notes about how I think that PhD research and self-employment actually have a lot of overlap in terms of the skills that you learn in one can apply to the other. But what you were just mentioning about kind of being your own boss and managing your time and so forth. I think that there is room for another loose interpretation of the Good-Better-Best goal framework there. Like “Good” might be working 40 hours a week, every single week out of the year, “Better” as being able to have a little bit more freedom and flexibility with your time, and “Best” is being able to have so much stuff outsourced and have people on your team that you can take time away from your business whenever you like. There are so many ways that Good-Better-Best framework I think can be applied outside of just how much money do you need to make to fund your lifestyle. Right? It seems so flexible.

The Many Applications of the GBB Framework

09:29 Lucie: Yeah. It can actually be applied to anything. So, for example, for a PhD student or a postdoc Good-Better-Best: How many papers do you want to publish this year? For me, I run writing workshops. How many people do I want in my writing workshop? What’s the minimum to make it viable? What would be a better goal that I would be happy with? And what would be the best that I would be completely chapped with? What’s your Good-Better-Best for losing weight or gaining weight or eating better. So, it can be applied literally to any form of goal-setting. And it actually makes any form of goal-setting much more realistic in that life is not black and white. It’s not like we meet or we fail at reaching our goals. And this gradation actually enhances motivation. That’s why it works so well for different areas, because once you reach your Good goal, you really want to reach your Better goal. Versus with traditional goal-setting: If you reach your goal, then what’s left?

10:27 Emily: Yeah. I love that you stated it that way, that you brought that up. I was thinking the exact same thing that it’s not a black and white success or failure with a razor-thin line in between the two for whatever your goal might be. As you were saying, there are gradations there of success. And even sometimes failures can be reframed as successes, you know, if you can see them the right way and so forth. So, I really love that. I think the audience members hold me to that, but I think I may try to figure out how to apply this Good-Better-Best framework within the teaching that I do within personal finance. Because I do talk about goal-setting and about financial goals. But as you were saying, it can be so demotivating to not reach a goal.

11:08 Emily: And yet you also want your goals to be very lofty, right? Like you want to be able to strive for something. So, it’s again about self-knowledge, about knowing what’s going to work for you. Do you want to strive for something and maybe not quite reach it but feel good about it? And know that you’re going to focus maybe on that Best goal? Or, do you want to set something that you know you can succeed at and then you’ll be motivated to move on from there? Well, that’s the “Good” goal. I feel like this is a good framework for people of many different kinds of mindsets toward goal-setting. So, I don’t know. I’m really excited about this. I’m really excited about learning about this framework.

Applying GBB to Research Life

11:40 Lucie: And I think one aspect where I really wish I had known about Good, Better goals when I was doing my postdoc was exactly about how many papers to publish. Because especially within research, there’s this kind of like runaway consumption model in that you need to do more and more and more and more. And if you never put a note on it, you’ll never reach it. And it’s very frustrating. Versus I feel that if now I was working in research again, I would definitely set myself Good-Better-Best goals just so I would know when to stop and relax and take a break.

12:17  Emily: I love that. Have you had any other thoughts about that? How you would apply GBB to research life for those who are still in it?

12:27 Lucie: Yes. So definitely in terms of your income and your budgeting, any of your key performance indicators, your grant income. More and more of academic life is measured with numbers, whether we like it or not. But because it is done this way, we better get on board with it. You can even apply the GBB to your h index if you really want to.

12:52 Emily: I was just thinking that. Yeah.

12:54 Lucie: But there again, it’s about, you know, having that realistic benchmark and then that motivational benchmark and that dream benchmark rather than having these unattainable goals. That makes it much more attainable and then you can discuss it with your supervisors or with your peers. And then for me, I wish I would not have gotten so run into the ground, in the sense that if you reach your “Best” goal, maybe you can take the foot off the accelerator.

How Can People Work with You? *Free Gift*

13:24 Emily: Yeah. And not get to the point like you did where you just had to throw up your hands and say, I have to take a complete break and escape from this for a while. Is there anything else that you’d like to tell us about your business? Like who do you work with or how can people work with you?

13:40 Lucie: Yeah. So, I have a website. It’s called luciebland.com. L u c i e b l a n d. And I have a blog where I blog about everything, academic writing and productivity. So you might have guessed, I’m really into goal-setting. I’m actually a certified coach, and so I work professionally with people to help them reach their goals. Especially their publication goals in a kind of holistic manner. And so I love to blog about evidence-based techniques to reach your goals. And I will send out a little gift and surprise that I would like to offer to the listeners of this podcast. I have a free Guide to Beating Writer’s Block. Everyone suffers from writer’s block one moment or another. And so I have a really nice free guide that recaps the different techniques that you can use to beat writer’s block. And you can get that at luciebland.com/write. So that’s w r i t e. And so you can go and download that for free. And I always kind of keep it to my side if I ever feel my motivation lacking I always refer back to these little exercises.

How Are Your Personal Finances Now?

14:46 Emily: Yeah, that’s great. Thank you for that. And we’ll link to that as well from the show notes. So if you want to go there first, that’s fine. So, when we started talking about doing this interview, you described yourself as a money boss or maybe it was an aspiring money boss–you’re getting to be towards the money boss state. And so there was this huge difference between the mindset that you had towards money during your PhD and where you are now. And so can you talk a little bit more about how you’re managing your personal finances right now, how you’re using the GBB framework and your personal finances? And just more about the healthy point that you are at or that you’re developing at this moment in comparison with where you were a few years ago.

15:33 Lucie: Yeah. Well, I think that really the proof is in the pudding in that five years ago, I was never looking at my bank accounts and I was completely in the dark about anything financial. And now, I make extremely detailed 2-year cashflow projections using that GBB framework. And I feel good. I feel good about it now. I enjoy it. And that’s why I’m on this podcast because I’ve actually become a personal finance nerd. So, you can see the extent of the transformation, both in practical terms and in terms of mindsets, and especially now both, given my background as a coach. So, when I trained as a coach, I worked with a lot of clients who had money issues because money is so interesting because it’s where you have a conflict between all of your limiting beliefs and your trapped emotion and your resources that are linked to survival.

Money: The Modern-Day Saber-Toothed Tiger

16:30 Lucie: That’s why money triggers our fear centers so much. It’s the modern-day saber-toothed tiger that’s coming to eat us. And so there’s a perfectly logical explanation to why money is so difficult to so many people, both for the people who are really in scarcity mindset or the people who own that runaway consumption type of spending. And so what I love about the GBB goals and the budgeting is that, for those of us who are scientists, it really taps into our experimental tendencies. So for me, going from being scared of my finances to budgeting, I took it with a lot of self-love and self-compassion in that, “Okay, I’ll just see how it is.” Had a glass of wine because I couldn’t bear to look at my expenses without a little treat, and “I’m going to tweak a few things. I’m not going to change everything all at once. I’m just going to see how it is.” As if I was running an experiment in the lab. Like, what’s working, what’s not?

17:34 Lucie: What can I change next month? What can I change the month after that? And getting kind of that objective perspective with the numbers removes that emotion. Because we’re not going to go from fearful to excited all at once. You know, going from fearful to curious is a very good progression. Maybe then you become curious about your money, curious about how it functions, what other little tricks you can use. So, for example, I went through a phase where I would change all my electricity and gas providers and my phone. I went through all the things very methodically, with my personal expenses. Yeah, the gas bill.

Easy Ways to Make Extra Income

18:33 Lucie: And then another thing that really helped my mindset, especially for people who suffer from a scarcity mindset, is I started generating lots of money from random places. I became a lot more inventive with how I generate income. For example, over the weekend, I worked at festivals during my postdoc. Most postdocs don’t do that. Just work at festivals to make a little bit of cash. I sold a lot of my unused furniture and unused clothes. So, I just started to have these random little pockets of money that would come from kind of very odd places. And then that increased my belief that I could make money easily. Money is not that difficult to make. There are lots of places where we can make money, so I can imagine some people being on Airtasker or even driving Uber, et cetera. There are actually lots of ways to make little pots of cash in this day and age. And so both kind of doing the budgeting, revising my expenses, and creating these additional pools of cash really increased my confidence.

Commercial

19:26 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Through my business, I provide seminars and webinars on personal finance for graduate students, postdocs, and other early-career PhDs for universities, institutes, conferences, associations, etc. I offer seminars that cover a wide range of personal finance topics and others that take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs, like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you are interested in having me speak to your group or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at pfforphds.com/speaking. That’s p f f o r p h d s.com/speaking. Now back to the interview.

Frugal Experimentation

20:15 Emily: I wanted to add kind of two further examples to what you were just saying. One is frugal experimentation. You said that you can take sort of an experimentalist approach towards managing your money, and this is something that I’ve talked about as well. If you’re looking for ways to reduce your expenditures, or like you were saying earlier, not necessarily reduce what you’re spending but rather shift from using your money in ways that don’t give you as much satisfaction towards ways that do give you more satisfaction is a better way of thinking about it, right? Rather than just spend less everywhere. But if you are looking for something that you don’t care about spending money on too much, how can I spend less and less in this area? So I can redirect my money elsewhere. You can run what I call frugal experiments.

20:56 Emily: And so I think this is what you were mentioning. You would find a frugal tip somewhere online or whatever from a friend, and just try it out in your life. And what I say is to try it for 30 days. So it’s really giving it a good shot. Seeing if you can make it habitual and make it mindless and easy for you, and then go ahead and evaluate what was the actual effect. How much money did you end up not spending in that area that you didn’t care so much about? Was it worth the effort that you put in? Were you able to make it a habit? Were you able to make it easy? And if the answer is no, it didn’t reduce my spending enough to make all that effort worthwhile, well then just go back to whatever you were doing before. You can just easily reverse it.

21:35 Emily: And so you can do maybe, you know, one frugal experiment per month and just take like sort of a playful approach to it as you were saying. It’s not do or die in every single one of these things. You don’t have to change everything about your lifestyle in one fell swoop, but you can just take these small areas and make a change. And if you don’t like the change, then just go back. No big deal. So that’s one comment I wanted to make. And the other one is about finding other ways to earn or finding that money would start coming your way once you were thinking about it a little bit differently.

Having a Plan for Windfall Money

22:09 Emily: And what I did during graduate school, again, when our incomes were lower and it was very important to me that we used our money in the best way possible. I was very careful that I had a plan for any, what I might call windfall money that came my way. So it could be receiving maybe a gift, a birthday gift or something. Or it could be, I occasionally would participate in studies, like clinical trials. Very minor stuff. You know, psychological surveys, that kind of thing. If I made $10 from that, okay, well I would always have a plan for where that money was going to go. It wasn’t something that went into my general checking account to be just floating out there and who knows where it went. It went towards what we were using, targeted savings accounts. So it went into my target savings account for travel usually, or one time we were saving up for like a camera purchase for a DSLR. And so we would put in the extra money that we found into that savings account for that ultimate goal.

23:10 Emily: And I think having a plan for where that money was supposed to go, to help me use my money in a way that was most satisfactory to me, really made me pay more attention to all those little ways that money came to me. Whether it was from earning it or whether from, I don’t getting cash back on something, right. I had cashback credit cards, like just having a plan for any of those little non-salary income sources of money. Having a plan for what to do with it made sure that I was using it in a way that felt most optimal for me. And so I really love that you said that example as well. And maybe money was coming your way from time to time earlier, but you just weren’t paying attention in the right way to it to be able to use it in a way that was satisfactory.

23:53 Lucie: Yeah. And what I love about your example, Emily, is the actually you were almost using GBB. Because when you talk about your camera in your savings account, you know, to me that’s like your “Better” goals. And so, you were intuitively using a similar system by putting all that windfall income into these very specific goals.

Anything Else About Being a Money Boss?

24:14 Emily: Yup. That’s probably why I’m so excited about the framework is that it’s a way of sort of crystallizing how I was thinking about things already in a way that will help me communicate those ideas better with other people. Anything else you want to say about becoming a money boss or how you are a money boss? How you behave as a money boss now?

24:32 Lucie: So definitely this in terms that I’m spending more time being more future-oriented. So for example, now thinking of buying a property having these two-year cashflow projections, dreaming to the multiple six-figure business. All of these things now are within reach because I can actually monitor my progress to them rather than feeling stumped. And the other thing that has happened, which is surprising me a lot, is that I’m teaching basic business finance to other entrepreneurs, which seems really odd. But I’m actually doing it. And so, teaching other people how to do cashflow projections, how to manage money in their business. And so for me, especially lots of everything that we’ve talked about in this conversation, is a complete turn around.

25:24 Lucie: I had the skill set to do that. My training in biology was in specifically statistics. I was a computational modeler. So, money should not have been so difficult to me because I know how to deal with numbers. But it was the emotions attached to it that were blocking me. Versus now, I can really feel that my mathematical skills or my decision-making skills, I can use them to the best of their effect because basically my conscious mind and my subconscious mind are in the same direction. And now, I can head towards the future and make these better longterm decisions and also help other people make decisions like that.

26:10 Emily: Yeah, I love that point. I mean sometimes I hear that personal finance is intimidating to people because it is about numbers. Kind of. They think it’s about numbers. But really, I mean especially if we’re talking about PhDs, the level of mathematical ability is a very low bar to be passing to be successful in personal finance. It’s really all about mindset and emotion and understanding your values and self-knowledge and all the things that we’ve been talking about in this conversation. That dwarfs the ability, in terms working with numbers, to be successful in personal finance. Of course, it helps if you’re comfortable with math and everything, but it’s not what’s holding you back basically if you’re not feeling successful in that area.

Start Frugal Experiments Today

26:54 Lucie: What I would say as well to anyone listening is to start doing these frugal experiments. Start doing it now. And that’s not because I want to scare anyone out. But now especially that I work with business owners a lot more: people who can manage their money well will always be catered for, and you’ll definitely have a leading edge over anyone. Actually, very few people manage their money well. And so, if you can have both these mathematical skills that most of us would have in the academic world. and the willingness and the right mindset to manage your money. And if you can do it as soon as possible, let’s say in your late twenties or whatever. The rest of your life is going to be so much easier because of things like compound interest. And so it’s really worth kind of pulling the BandAid off and starting small today. Let’s say, looking at your phone bill and how you can optimize that, and then just gradually looking at all the other elements.

27:59 Emily: Yeah, I think you put that so well. And I could not agree more. Start today. And it doesn’t have to big, it doesn’t have to be scary. Have a glass of wine, like you said, whatever it takes for you to be able to look at your account transactions or whatever it is that your starting point needs to be. Just start, and start small. And the earlier you do it, the more you’re going to benefit really throughout the rest of your life. So as we sum up here, how do you think that PhDs can use the GBB framework with respect to personal finance and with respect to other areas of life?

How PhD Students Can Use the GBB Framework

28:35 Lucie: Yes, I think that the main two ways that PhD students can use the GBB framework are first, in terms of budgeting their expenses, or trying to align that concept of what is “Good” or what is the minimum viable income that you need. And kind of either reducing your expenses or rejigging your expenses to some things that provide higher value. And if this is available to you, also diversifying your income. Unfortunately, now we’re in an increasing world of casualization of the academic workforce. So a lot of people are working smaller contracts and having kind of little pools of money, and the GBB framework is great for that. But also for people who might have a more stable income, there are lots of opportunities out there to make more money if you wish. And so, once you’ve costed out what your dreams are going to cost you–your savings account, your camera, and your holidays–then really it’s up to you how you reach that goal. And for me, it’s a motivation to work hard because I enjoy doing it and especially with the Best goal, that’s where you can allow yourself to dream big. And I can imagine as well that having that GBB framework comes in extremely useful when negotiating for jobs. Because once you have that number in mind, it’s crystallized in your head. I need that number. I would like that number. I really, really want that number. And it’s up to you to make it happen.

Look at the Numbers and What Works For You

30:07 Emily: Yeah. Excellent point. I think something that may be useful for someone who’s in a really, really tight spot with money, maybe it’s during graduate school, like you were really not making a sufficient income for where you were living. If you are allowed to take on outside work, if it’s permitted by your contract or you think you can get away with it, whatever the situation is. I think it could be really useful to actually look, as you were just saying, at what is the shortfall that I have between what I’m making right now and what that minimum viable income is. And if I did this type of work, how many hours would it actually take to make up that shortfall? Because I’m thinking that maybe a lot of PhD students in that situation don’t need to work an additional 20 hours per week at the pay rate that they can gain using the skills from their PhD.

30:59 Emily: Maybe they’re going to be able to make a very decent hourly rate. Maybe it’s $20 per hour. Maybe it’s $50 per hour. Maybe it’s $200 per hour depending on what their skill sets are and what the market is. But really looking at, okay, well if I just worked an extra two hours a week or five hours a week, maybe I can make up that shortfall and it would make such a huge difference to your general sense of wellbeing in your life to be able to do that. This is just basically an argument for looking at the numbers and looking at potential income in certain areas as we’ve been talking about throughout this entire episode. And again, trying to figure out what is it really going to take to make that amount of money. And maybe it’s not as much effort or not as much time as you were thinking it would be when you were just sort of hiding your head in the sand about it.

Diversification of Income: Side Hustles

31:45 Lucie: Yes, that’s excellent advice. And as you say, a lot of PhD students have a lot of skills that are very much in demand. For example, tutoring or teacher relief, et cetera. Even my editing job was something I could do from home anywhere and that any PhD student with superior English could do and would pay quite well. And so there are lots of opportunities both online and offline to make these extra little pools of money. And as you say, it might only be like two or three hours a week.

32:17 Emily: Yeah. So I think that was using the GBB framework on your personal finances and on budgeting. That was the first suggestion. What was the second one?

32:26 Lucie: Ah, yeah, the second one was to diversify your income.

32:29 Emily: Ah, okay. Yeah. Great. I love both of those suggestions. And really the diversification of income strategy is not just one for PhD students as you did during your postdoc. Or even maybe if you had had a regular job at that time, you were just experimenting and you were exploring with other types of work that you could do. And eventually, you were able to hit on what is now your business and what is really bringing joy and satisfaction in your life. But without sort of stepping out of your current status, without stepping out of your comfort zone, you wouldn’t have taken that journey and been able to get to this point. So again, a theme coming up again is experimentation, whether it’s with new types of work or frugal strategies or what have you.

Additional Benefits of Side Hustling

33:10 Lucie: And I think there are a lot of other benefits to having a side hustle experimenting beyond the extra money. You know, there are lots of talks that most PhD students don’t stay in the academic world and need to translate their skills to industry or the business world, et cetera. And experimenting and having a side hustle is the perfect way to do that, in addition to earning more money.

33:34 Emily: Yeah, if some of the different topics we’ve covered in this episode have peaked your interest, listener, please go to the show notes because I have written about so many of these things in different ways. I’m going to add a lot of links there to different articles I have that you can go to explore deeper and of course also visit Lucie’s site. You want to mention it again, Lucie?

33:53 Lucie: Luciebland.com. L u c i e b l a n d.

33:58 Emily: Yeah. Especially if you want more content around what she is specializing in. Lucie, it was such a pleasure to talk with you today, and I’ve learned a ton from this conversation. I’m sure the listeners have as well. Thank you so, so much for this interview.

34:10 Lucie: Thank you, Emily.

Outtro

34:12 Emily: Listeners, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, a form to volunteer to be interviewed, and a way to join the mailing list. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you want to support the show and my business, please go to pfforphds.com/helpout. There are plenty of ways to do so without laying out any of your own money. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it doesn’t hurt. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC.