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This Former Prof Found True Flexibility and Profitability in Her Academic Editing Business

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Paulina Cossette, a former professor and the owner of Acadia Editing. Paulina followed the prescribed academic path, but found herself profoundly unhappy in her faculty position. After leaving academia, Paulina stumbled into academic editing and eventually started working under her own brand. As a business owner, Paulina earns more, works less, and has true flexibility, which has enabled her to design her lifestyle in a way that was not possible within academia.

Links mentioned in the Episode

This Former Prof Found True Flexibility and Profitability in Her Academic Editing Business

Teaser

Paulina (00:00): The system makes it unsustainable, particularly if you have kids, though, not exclusively. Um, and so I think I just reached a breaking point, you know, and, and it really wasn’t planned.

Introduction

Emily (00:24): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (00:53): This is Season 19, Episode 8, and today my guest is Dr. Paulina Cossette, a former professor and the owner of Acadia Editing. Paulina followed the prescribed academic path, but found herself profoundly unhappy in her faculty position. After leaving academia, Paulina stumbled into academic editing and eventually started working under her own brand. As a business owner, Paulina earns more, works less, and has true flexibility, which has enabled her to design her lifestyle in a way that was not possible within academia. If you’ve been enjoying this podcast and want to see it continue, would you please help spread the word? Take a minute to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, text a recent episode that you enjoyed to a friend, or give it a shout-out on social media. Any of those actions helps me to grow Personal Finance for PhDs and continue finding amazing guests for the interviews. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s19e8/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Paulina Cossette.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:15): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Paulina Cossette, who is a former professor and currently has a business called Acadia Editing Services. I’m really excited to learn about her business journey, her exit from academia, all that kind of related stuff. And so, Paulina, welcome to the podcast, and will you please introduce yourself to the audience a little bit further?

Paulina (02:36): Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Emily. Um, so I used to be a political science professor. Um, I was in academia for about 12 years, uh, and in 2019, um, I had a 1-year-old child and I was just sort of, uh, very overwhelmed, um, and getting fed up with the lifestyle of academia, having to work seven days a week, you know, just facing that burnout, especially having just had a baby. Um, and so I decided to quit and we moved aco- across the country to live in Maine near our family. And I sort of fell into copy editing. And, you know, long story short, uh, four or five years later, here I am, I have a successful editing business and I work from home for myself. Um, and life is good.

Emily (03:28): I love this concept. Okay. Are you familiar with Cal Newport?

Paulina (03:32): Yes.

Emily (03:33): Okay, so I’m gonna get his like, name of this wrong, but it’s like lifestyle centered career design, something like that. Have you heard him talk about this lifestyle centric career design? Something like that? Um, so that really sounds like, I mean, you said you fell into it, but it, I mean, it really sounds like that’s kinda what you were doing, right? You had built up career capital in academia and then said, Nope, my lifestyle is more important than this particular job, and so I’m gonna pivot and use this career capital in another area that supports how I want my full life to look like. Okay. So very, very great brief introduction, but let’s kind of dive, you know, more into this and sort of starting back from the beginning of the academic journey, like what led you into the career in academia in the first place?

Dr. Paulina Cossette’s Academic Journey

Paulina (04:17): So I, you know, I was always a good student. Um, I was a first generation college student, so I didn’t really have guidance on any of that other than my grandparents who were always saying, you have to go to college because that’s how you succeed. And I just, I liked school and I liked learning, so I just, I went to college, um, I kept, I just kept going and, you know, I started doing research, uh, as an undergrad and then went on to get a, the PhD program and I didn’t really have a plan, you know, I just sort of enjoyed being in school. And then once you get to graduate school, I think this is true for many people. Um, your advisors direct you towards academia and, you know, I was in political science, so there weren’t, there wasn’t any discussion of alternatives of industry or, you know, working in government or anything else. Uh, and I didn’t really know, uh, I didn’t know any other options. And, you know, they said, you apply to these schools and you get the tenure track job, and it doesn’t matter if you don’t like where you’re living, that’s just part of it, you know, you don’t have to stay there forever. And so I, I think like many people, I sort of fell into this funnel, you know, of like, this is, this is what you do, and I just did what I was told. And, um, it worked for a little while, but that was a recipe ultimately for disaster. So, um, so yeah, I, I loved school and I loved learning, but it was just sort of like, I, I just kept doing what I was supposed to do, uh, and ended up, you know, ended up there and not very happy.

Emily (05:56): Hmm. I wonder if I was on a track similar to this myself, um, up until the point in graduate school, um, when I discovered personal finance, actually. And that’s when I figured out like, oh, people have like all kinds of different jobs and businesses sometimes, and like some people work part-time and some people retire. And like all the, it’s just sort of opened my mind. And not that I was on necessarily an academic track, but certainly to stay in research, that was my intention. Um, so that is so interesting, and I totally, I totally understand how that would happen, but also good on you for being successful, even in something where you were like, I’m just following the prescribed path here. Um, but clearly it, it went well for you for a time at any rate. Right? And then you sort of, you know, briefly said earlier that the timing of you leaving your job was, you know, around when your child was very young. Is there anything else you wanna share about that decision to leave and like maybe what you thought you were jumping into next?

Paulina (06:52): Yeah, I think, um, it was a long time coming and I’m actually, I’m reading Annie Duke’s book Quit right now, where she talks about how we put off this decision to quit far longer than we should. Um, and it, it brings back a lot of memories. ‘Cause that was the exact situation that I was in, that I was so unhappy. And I thought, well, maybe it’s just the school I’m at. So I went on the job market and I changed schools, and I was, it was better, but I was still unhappy. It’s still, you know, and like I said, I I, I had my son. I was working seven days a week, and it was just, the system makes it unsustainable, um, particularly if you have kids, though not exclusively. Um, and so I think I just reached a breaking point, you know, and, and it really wasn’t planned. Um, my husband and I had talked for a long time about moving, um, his mom had been diagnosed with lung cancer. Uh, and so all of these factors were sort of playing on our minds until we finally reached this breaking point and said, you know, I said, I just can’t do this anymore. And it was the summer of 2019 and I resigned and we sold our house and we moved to Maine. And I had no idea what I was gonna do. I, you know, I thought I would go on the non-academic job market, trying to find something around here in Maine, which is not, you know, there aren’t a lot of options, um, trying to find remote positions. And I kept striking out, you know, people kept telling me I was overqualified or I wasn’t the right fit, or they decided not to hire anyone. Or like, it was, it was a really demoralizing experience, you know, feeling like, I have all this training and education, I’m smart, I’m hardworking, but nobody sees that, you know? And I think a lot of people go through that where they just don’t know how to translate the academic lingo into industry lingo, um, on a resume. And so I had just written a book and we had worked with a freelance copy editor in as part of the process of publishing it. And I thought, oh, well I could do that. I’m a really good writer. Everybody always tells me I’m, I’m a good writer, you know, I can edit. And so initially I thought it would be temporary, but I ended up loving it. And, you know, like you were saying about the lifestyle change, uh, this was shortly before Covid and then Covid happened and I thought, oh my God, I’m so glad I’m working from home. I’m so glad I didn’t take a job in an office. Um, ’cause especially with little kids, you know, I didn’t wanna be having to go off to work and then come home and potentially, you know, getting sick or something. So, um, yeah, so I really just fell into it, um, and ended up loving it, and everything has just grown from there.

Building an Academic Editing Business

Emily (09:45): Amazing story. And I, I mean, I think so many people in academia, whether that’s just as grad students or postdocs or whether that’s a career in the professorship type position after that can relate to this. I mean, there’s so many like academic exit stories like floating around in the last 10 years. Um, even on this podcast. It hasn’t been published at the time that we were recording this interview, but an upcoming episode is someone with a very similar story of having gotten that tenure track position and then just, it was not the right fit and ended up quitting, moving across the country, you know, familial reasons in the mix, kids in the mix, all that stuff, not surprisingly another woman. Um, so there’ll be echoes of that same like, motivation, um, between these two interviews as well. Um, and so I’m so glad that you found something that you loved, but it, it, it does sound like you are casting around and applying for different things and trying different things and, um, not sitting stagnant, but really like pursuing some different things until you found something that was an awesome fit. And I, I just love that. So let us know more about your business now, like, um, it’s been a few years since you like started it. So what does it look like now?

Paulina (10:47): Um, so when I first started out, I was very much a freelancer. The idea of being an entrepreneur was like, that’s too much for me. That sounds like a lot of risk. I could never do that. Um, and so I started out freelancing for some different companies that we usually refer to as editing agencies, um, where you have scholars from all over the world upload their documents and then the company hires you as a freelancer to edit them.

Emily (11:16): I worked in such a service as a side hustle for several years, yes.

Paulina (11:19): Oh, fantastic. So, you know that it is not ideal and the pay is not very good, but when you’re just starting out, it’s a great way to learn the business. You know, you are, um, it’s essentially, I tell my students it’s on the job training. You know, it’s if, if you’re faculty, you know how to do academic editing, um, but you’ve just never done it at the level that is required, you know, in professional editing, fixing every mistake using advanced tools and word track changes, all that stuff. And so I think working for these agencies is a great way to get that initial experience. And my mistake was that I just stayed there too long. You know, I didn’t have enough confidence in myself. Um, I saw other editors in these Facebook groups talking about how the way you make real money is to get private clients. And I thought, oh, I’m not good enough for that. You know, like the, the academic imposter syndrome carried over into this new life, unfortunately. Um, but eventually I got more and more experience and I decided probably a year or two ago, you know what, I’m just gonna go for it. And I started, uh, connecting with some private clients. And at first it was just a handful of people, but I, my confidence grew and I, and, and people were happy with my work. And so I realized that I really am good at this. And I think, you know, I wish it hadn’t taken me so long. Um, I did have a second child in that period, so I, I, you know, had other things going on. But, um, but yeah, I think I’ve, I’ve learned so much from building a business, you know, and, uh, a lot of it is just having confidence in myself. But a lot of it also is also that, you know, a lot of PhDs, um, think that they don’t have any skills that they can apply outside academia. I think they’re, they’re terrified to leave graduate school or their academic position because they think that they’re not gonna be able to do anything else. But there’s so much about a PhD or other doctoral program that trains you to be successful. You know, you’re hardworking, you’re persistent, you’re creative, you’ve got thick skin, you know, like all of this stuff. You’re a, a pretty good writer, probably. Um, you know how to do research, you like to learn new things. Um, all of this, no matter whether you wanna go into editing or business or, you know, industry or whatever, you have so many skills that you can apply elsewhere. And I think that the process of building a business has taught me that

Emily (13:55): I agree so much. I actually, right when I was, I guess around the time I started my business, which is also the time that I finished graduate school, I was kind of, yeah, I was trying some different things, sort of like you did for a little while. And, um, I, I remember writing a blog post about like, the similarities between like entrepreneurship and, um, the academic life. And in addition, all those, all those characters, which that you mentioned are totally, I totally agree with them. And I don’t remember if you had this in there, but I really focused a lot on like, sort of being, um, like a self-starter slash really in charge of your own work in an independent way by the time you finish a PhD. Or certainly if you go beyond that, um, very similar to being like a solopreneur or like the top person in like a business. Um, and also for me anyway, working alone. ’cause like I am a solopreneur, so I work with contractors, but I don’t have employees of my own. Um, and so that was also very similar to like, okay in, when I was in graduate school, like I had some collaborators, but I, I worked my own projects. And so like, not being part of a closely working together team was very similar to me between those two like environments. So yeah, I mean, and I actually, I really relate also to your experience of like, I’m gonna try this, um, mode of work first as like a freelancer. So working for somebody else’s business, whether as an employee or as a contractor, either way you would sort of learn what the business is and then eventually gaining the confidence, as you said, to strike out on your own and sort of do it under your own branding. But coming with that, uh, there’s much more responsibility for actually getting clients. So like, that’s the part when I was doing the freelance, like editing work, I loved that I didn’t have to get clients, I just had to do the work. Whereas when you become the business owner, like the sales aspect is something you have responsibility for. So that’s a tough, like, that’s a big role to like add when you’re making that shift. Do you have anything else that you’d like to add to that?

Paulina (15:45): Um, yeah, you know, what you just said about, uh, marketing and things being just a bit more challenging. And that’s exactly what I tell my students is like, it’s not ideal to start out working for these editing agencies that pay less, but it lets you focus on that training, uh, and, and really perfect your editing skills before you then go out and try to attract private clients. ’cause marketing does take a lot of work. It is, you know, I don’t wanna paint the picture that entrepreneurship is easy because it’s not, but um, it certainly does pay off when you get there, you know, and you figure out how to connect with people. And I think, um, I also agree with what you were saying about the similarities between being faculty or being in academia and being a solopreneur is one of the biggest things that I hear from people that they’re terrified to leave academia because they don’t wanna lose their flexibility. And I always push back on that because, um, I don’t think academia is all that flexible. You know, there’s a meme that’s gone around that says, academia lets you work, or you have to work seven days a week, but you can choose any seven days a week that you want. Uh, and it’s so true, you know, but being, being an in entrepreneurship, you, you do, you get to keep that flexibility and you’re not working nine to five.

Emily (17:03): Hmm. I agree. Like it might be a big shift for like an employee to then strike out on their own in a business, an employee in the sense of like, not in an academic setting where like maybe you work your 40 or your 45 or your 50 hours, but you can kind of turn it off and you don’t have a ton of responsibilities like outside of that. But in the way that academia can be all consuming business also can be all consuming. And so whatever skills you’ve learned about, like the boundaries that you can put up can, it can also be translated between those two settings. And like you said, academia is flexible in the sense of like, yeah, exactly. You are just gonna have a ton to do. So like, pick what you’re gonna do, all that ton of work. And, you know, business ownership is a little bit different because you can sort of define the scope a little bit better. Someone else isn’t defining it for you of how much work there is to do.

Commercial

Emily (17:47): Emily here for a brief interlude! I’m hard at work behind the scenes updating my suite of tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2024. These educational workshops explain how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. For the 2024 tax season starting in January 2025, I’m offering live and pre-recorded workshops for US citizen/resident graduate students and postdocs and non-resident graduate students and postdocs. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they host one or more of these workshops for you and your peers? I’d love to receive a warm introduction to a potential sponsor this fall so we can hit the ground running in January serving those early bird filers. You can find more information about hosting these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Now back to our interview.

Personal Finances as a Professor and as a Business Owner

Emily (19:03): Let’s talk about the money part of this. So compare, you know, your job as a professor, what that paid and what it required of you to what you’re doing now. Like how have your, I’ll say, how have your personal finances changed with this transition? And there’s a lot of transitions in there. You mentioned, you know, multiple children moving across the country. Care, you know, caring for elderly parents. Like there’s a lot in there. So like how has your financial situation changed from when you had that previous position to, to now?

Paulina (19:30): So, um, with editing specifically, uh, so much of how much you can earn is based on how quickly you can edit because there are some editors who charge hourly, but I think that’s sort of on the way out. I think both editors and clients like to charge per word. So, you know, for each project you can give a quote, uh, based on your per word rate, you know about how much you’re gonna make based on your editing speed. The client knows what they’re gonna pay. And so, um, obviously the faster you can work while, you know, being accurate still, uh, the more money you can make. And so I think I am fortunate because I can edit pretty quickly, um, certainly as I’ve gotten more experienced. Um, and so I would say that, you know, my, I was making about $60,000 when I was a, an assistant professor on the tenure track in political science when I left, plus the benefits. And, you know, you, when you have a salary job, they’re contributing to your health insurance and retirement and all that, which you obviously lose when you go freelance. Um, my first year out of my first year of freelance editing, I made about 45,000, and that was working maybe 20 to 25 hours a week. Um, and you know, just kind of trying to figure out the landscape. Uh, my second year I made the same amount, but I took three months off because I had my daughter, uh, and wanted to take time for that. Um, and then within the last few years, it’s just climbed steadily, especially when I started working with private clients. And, you know, you’re not having to, you can charge much more. You’re not giving up those costs to some other company that’s employing you. Um, and this year I’m set to hit six figures. So, uh, and that’s only working about 30 hours a week. So, you know, there are a lot of editors out there who struggle with finding clients, but I’ve, I’ve somehow managed to find this formula that lets me, that has let me build up a client base with referrals and repeat clients and just new people finding me through Google or whatever. Um, and I’ve had a lot of success. And so, you know, I’m, I’m happy to share that with other people, uh, you know, to, to try to help them find their way out of academia.

Emily (21:52): Hmm. So it’s while not, and immediately upon that transition, it’s the business that you’ve built over time, I would say does compensate you well, more than, um, the academic position did, even after accounting for the benefits and so forth. And you’re limiting your work to 30 hours a week as you said, whereas it was whatever, 60, 70, whatever it was when you were in academia. Um, awesome. I’m glad to hear that both the up the upside of more money and less time both together. That’s amazing. Um, so when you volunteered for this interview, you said that you had a message for academics who are unsatisfied with their jobs like you were. So what’s that message?

A Message for Academics Who Are Unsatisfied With Their Jobs

Paulina (22:33): Um, I, if, if I could just talk to every unhappy academic, you know, I would say you don’t have to stay you if you are miserable. And you know what, if you are in academia and you’re happy, that’s fantastic. Uh, that that’s wonderful. But there are so many people out there who are unhappy and they’re terrified to leave for all the reasons we’ve been talking about, and they just feel trapped. And, you know, in the so many people that I’ve talked to in the last several months, um, you can see the anguish in their faces, you know, you hear it in their voices and, and I know exactly what that feels like. The anxiety, the stomach churn, the do I leave? Do I stay, do I leave? Do I stay? Uh, it’s horrible and I don’t want that for anyone, you know? And so if I could, if I could tell anyone who is unhappy, that’s, that’s my message is, you know, if you wanna go into editing, great. I’d love to help you get there. But, uh, no matter what you wanna do, um, you just don’t stay right. Life is too short to, um, life is too short to be unhappy and to not do what you wanna do.

Emily (23:40): Incredible. I absolutely agree. Life is too short. I’m, I’m 39 now, and so I am, I’m not having a midlife crisis, but I’m having a midlife like rethink, like, yeah, this, this is my life. Like, am I happy with the choices that I’ve been making? Most of them, yes, I am very happy. Um, what can I do differently? You know, going forward, what can make this an even better experience for me? Because you only get one life. And so to spend your twenties and your thirties and into your forties, maybe like as you just described, like dreading every day at work. Absolutely. Life is too short. Um, so totally agree. Will you please tell us more about like, well, one, where can, where can people find you if they want to, you know, employ your editing services? And I understand there’s another arm to your business actually, which is like helping other people make this kind of transition. So tell us about all that.

Get in Touch With Dr. Paulina Cossette

Paulina (24:31): Yeah, so for editing, um, my homepage is acadiaediting.com. Um, and you can also find me on Instagram, Facebook, uh, LinkedIn. Um, and that’s, that’s pretty straightforward. If you have an editing project, I usually just ask to see a draft and give a quote and happy to help whether it’s, uh, you know, a dissertation or journal article or even I’ve edited tenure packets and job market letters. Um, and then yeah, this summer I launched a digital course and group coaching program called Becoming an Academic Editor. Uh, we’ve just wrapped our first cohort. Uh, it’s a 12 week program and we’ve started our second cohort, um, so far over 20 people have gone through it. Um, and it basically, I teach you what I did, right? How to start freelance editing, how to build a website, how to find clients, um, and it’s really awesome because of that we do these weekly Zoom calls and you’re just surrounded by people who are just like you, who understand how horrible academia can be and who are ready to get started with, you know, like you were saying with that, that midlife change of, uh, really starting to pursue what makes us happy instead of what we feel like we were supposed to be doing.

Emily (25:52): That sounds incredible. And actually not to like whatever, get content out of your course, but when you described your transition, you left the job first and then you started and you found editing after having, after struggling to find another position. And so I would imagine what you’re teaching people now is, okay, you already have an idea that you might wanna edit. Let’s start that on the side before we quit the big job. Is that right?

Paulina (26:16): There’s honestly, there’s a mix of people. Um, some found me and I had one student who said she was in a therapy appointment and decided she had to leave academia and she went home and googled it and she found my website and enrolled in the course right away. Uh, other people have started editing on their own and are not having success. They’re struggling to find work, and so they find me and, and are able to get some help. Um, other people, yeah, they just wanna make some extra money, you know, they don’t wanna leave their academic job and they like that with freelancing. They can work five or 10 hours a week editing and bring in some extra cash or do it in the summer or whatever. Um, so it’s really, it works no matter what your situation is, as long as you’re a strong writer and you understand academic publishing, then you know, it’s, it’s totally doable for whatever your timing and all that.

Emily (27:10): I love it. Um, I’ll share that. Like I, when I was doing this kind of work, which I did for, I don’t know, maybe three years or so, four years, um, strictly as a, you know, contractor for another company, um, I did it as a side hustle and I started it after I defended as I was starting personal finance for PhDs and it wasn’t bringing in as much money as I wanted to bring in yet. So it was like another, it was truly like for the money, that’s why I was doing it. I didn’t anticipate having a career in this area or anything. Um, but when I started I was like, wow, I could have been doing this earlier, like I could have been doing this during graduate school as a side hustle. Like, um, and I liked that it was within, it was all within kinda my area of expertise and like that was really like nice that I still got to use those skills. Um, so I think at any stage, if you wanna pick it up and whether it’s gonna be a thing on the side or whether it’s gonna be like you are really doing this like for a lot of time and it’s gonna be one of your main sources of income, uh, maybe transitioning on to being your full-time income, like, that’s awesome. So I’m glad that people can find you if they’re curious about this career path.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (28:09): Um, let’s wrap up with the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or something completely new.

Paulina (28:22): So, um, so my biggest piece of advice I think is, you know, we all know we’re supposed to save and have a budget and all that stuff, but at some point, if you’re not earning enough money, enough money, you can’t save, right? I, I grew up with a single mom with not very much money at all. And so I know you, you just can’t save if there’s not enough coming in. And so for anybody who is getting their PhD and thinking about going on the job market, absolutely you need to negotiate. Uh, and I think this is especially important for women in particular who, you know, we don’t apply to jobs because we think we don’t, we’re not qualified. Um, whereas men will apply to any job that you know that they feel like they’re extra qualified for, even if they’re not. Um, so apply to jobs when you get an offer. Negotiate, right? Don’t be a don’t be afraid to ask for what you’re worth and, uh, let them tell you no, right? Like don’t, don’t assume that you’re not gonna get it and then be afraid to ask. Just go for it ’cause you deserve it.

Emily (29:25): Awesome. I love it. Okay, we’ll leave it there. Thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast. It was delightful talking with you.

Paulina (29:32): Thanks so much, Emily. It’s been fun.

Outtro

Emily (29:44): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Navigating the Career and Financial Transition Out of Academia

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Jill Hoffman, a former assistant professor who left academia to become a stay-at-home parent and part-time business owner supporting academic entrepreneurs (including Emily!). Jill recounts how she decided that academia was no longer the best place for her and how she and her husband planned out how to swap roles as the stay-at-home parent and move cross-country to be closer to family. One of the major themes of this episode is how to prepare financially and in your career for transitions. At the end of the interview, Jill gives not only her best financial advice but also her best advice for someone looking to leave academia and someone starting a side business.

Links mentioned in the Episode

Navigating the Career and Financial Transition Out of Academia

Teaser

Jill (00:00): There are different seasons of life. Um, I think this is a season where like the benefits of, of flexibility, um, with our schedule and our time, um, and having a low stress job, um, they greatly outweigh, um, having that second full-time income right now. Um, and I know that it’s just like this period of time, not forever.

Introduction

Emily (00:31): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:01): This is Season 19, Episode 4, and today my guest is Dr. Jill Hoffman, a former assistant professor who left academia to become a stay-at-home parent and part-time business owner supporting academic entrepreneurs—including me! Jill recounts how she decided that academia was no longer the best place for her and how she and her husband planned out how to swap roles as the stay-at-home parent and move cross-country to be closer to family. One of the major themes of this episode is how to prepare financially and in your career for transitions. At the end of the interview, Jill gives not only her best financial advice but also her best advice for someone looking to leave academia and someone starting a side business.

Emily (01:45): I’m looking for interviewees for Season 20 of this podcast! This is your official invitation to volunteer to be interviewed. I love that on this podcast I get to feature PhDs and PhDs-to-be who are almost exclusively regular people and learn and share their real-life stories and strategies. If it’s been in the back of your mind to volunteer, please go to PFforPhDs.com/podcastvolunteer/ and fill out the quick form, and I’ll be in touch over email. I look forward to interviewing you in the coming months! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s19e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:43): Today’s episode is a really special one because I have joining me today as a guest, Dr. Jill Hoffman. Jill is actually a returning podcast guest. She was originally on season three, episode four, and we’re going to use the interview today to just kind of like catch up financially and what’s been going on in Jill’s life overall, um, in the years since she gave us that prior episode. Um, to give you a tiny preview, Jill was a tenure track faculty member at the time of our last interview, and now she’s not <laugh> and she’s doing other things in her life, um, including working with me, uh, in personal finance for PhDs. So that’s what we’ve been doing together for the last about year and a half. Um, yes. So how did Jill get to this point? <laugh>. Um, Jill, please give us, um, a slightly longer introduction, um, and catch us up to where you were when we had that last interview.

Jill (03:32): Yeah, sure thing. So, um, I got my PhD in 2016 in social work. Um, and I worked as an assistant professor for six years. I quit my job right before or right when I was supposed to go up for tenure, um, which was two years ago, so 2022. Um, and then we moved back across the country to be closer to family from Oregon to Virginia. Um, and now, um, I am mainly a stay at home parent. Um, I’ve got one kid in preschool and one in elementary school, and my husband, uh, works full-time. And as you mentioned, um, we, we work together. I also have my own, um, small business providing virtual assistant services for online business owners, especially, um, academic entrepreneurs.

Financial and Personal Life Updates

Emily (04:14): So exciting. Let’s go all the way back to when you were on the podcast before. We talked a lot about student loans, we talked about public service loan forgiveness. Like let’s just kind of close that story first of all.

Jill (04:25): Yeah. So we have taken a, like student loans are on the, the back, back, back burner, um, right now since that time when we were really focused on student loan debt and kind of like figuring out what to do with it. Um, we, with all of the changes that have been going on with student loans, with like the save plan and um, with the covid pause and all those things, we just kind of said, all right, we’re, we’re not, nothing’s really happening with them at this moment. Um, we’re not doing anything with ’em. I got to a point in my, because I was doing public service loan forgiveness, um, I got to a point where I think I have like a little over a year left, um, and until I could potentially get them my loans forgiven. Um, but it, the trade off between staying in my job, um, and, and leaving it just for me personally, didn’t, the payoff wasn’t as, um, um, good as I thought it would be.

Emily (05:30): Anything else would you like to tell us about, you know, that maybe the time between our last interview and when you decided to leave your job?

Jill (05:37): A lot of things have happened, um, since that time and since kind of that when I decided to leave, two kind of big things happened. We had two like family emergencies that happened, um, since we last talked. So at the end of 2019, my dad unexpectedly passed away, and then my mom, um, had multiple major hospitalizations from like 2019 through 2021. And so those two things happened. Um, and then I had, in terms of like life events, not emergencies, I had another baby in 2021. Um, and so it was shortly after my dad passed away that we kind of were like, we’re too far from family. Um, we wanna move back to the east coast. We were on the West coast and, um, I don’t know that this is the job for me. Um, and so we kind of like used that time to figure out like, what do we, what do we do? ’cause we didn’t move until 2022 and I didn’t quit until 2022. Um, so we had a couple of years to like figure out what we were doing, um, in terms of next job, um, and, and where we were moving.

Emily (06:46): Yeah. I’m so sorry about your dad passing, especially unexpectedly, and I can certainly understand why that would cause you to rethink, um, what, you know, how you’ve set up your life and what you wanna be, um, doing with it. But obviously obvious to everyone who’s listening, like the decision to leave a tenure track job is huge. So tell us more about what was going on job wise that made you think wasn’t really the right job for you.

Jill (07:11): Yeah. I, there were a lot of different aspects to it. I think what it boiled down to was what, that I always felt like you have like the, the research, the teaching, the service, the three aspects of the job. And it felt like each of those could be a full-time job in and of themselves. And I felt like I could never do, um, like to the, like I was doing like a mediocre job at all of ’em, <laugh>, and it never felt like I felt like I was doing something unattainable, I guess. Um, and I was doing well and like, you know, I, um, was, had positive reviews, um, up until that point. Um, it just wasn’t, it didn’t feel meaningful enough for me to, to keep kind of working in a job that didn’t feel meaningful. I guess <laugh>, um, for, for me and the teaching aspect, there was a lot of teaching involved in my role and it wasn’t, that was never, um, why I got into academia. I really enjoyed the research part of it. And so, um, while I enjoyed like working with students, especially like one-on-one, um, and kind of like talking about career plans and things like that, I did not enjoy the teaching aspect and it just was so draining. Just like, I can’t, I can’t do this, um, for the rest of my career.

Emily (08:36): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and I remember, um, you had, or maybe still have a blog, right? Hmm. Toddler on the tenure track, and I remember that you, you’re into like time management and productivity and those kinds of things. And so obviously you put effort into your job and like trying to do your job as best you can, and you were intentional about that and you had tools at your disposal and so forth. And it, it’s, it’s very obvious to me that the job let you down, you know, like, you know that not the other way around. Right? Um, do you wanna say anything more about that?

Jill (09:11): Yeah, you know, I think the, the blog, starting the blog, um, was my way of like, trying to make it something that I wanted to do. Like it brought like some fun and meaning and like interest to it for me. And so, um, it was almost like, all right, I’m gonna figure out how to do this job in a way that like, allows me to really enjoy it. Um, ’cause how I’m doing it now is not, is not cutting it, I guess. Um, and so like by, I think just kind of like taking more time to reflect on like what I was doing, how I was doing it through the blog was a like my way of, of trying to figure out like, can I do this? Or is like, is this something that I wanna step away from?

Financially Preparing to Leave Academia

Emily (10:00): Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so how did all this work financially, right? Because I also remember from the time of our last interview that I think you had your job but your husband wasn’t working at that time, right? So yeah. Talk about <laugh>, how, how the finances of leaving your position worked.

Jill (10:17): Yeah. Yeah. So this was like, we, um, so my husband was a stay at home dad for, um, pretty much the entire time we were in Oregon, which was about six years. Um, and we kinda slowly made the switch to him working full time and me being at home. When covid hit there were like whispers at my university that faculty might be furloughed a day a week. And I did the math in terms of like what income we would lose and it did not look great <laugh>. Um, and so my husband and I started kicking around the idea of him getting a part-time job, um, to, to boost our income if we needed that. Um, and uh, he ended up getting a, um, remote part-time, um, customer service job with Squarespace, um, that was like incredibly instrumental in helping us get across the country. Um, and just super helpful for making that actually work. Um, and so he started that job in like the fall of 2020. Um, and I can’t remember how many hours a week he was working. It wasn’t a ton, but we would, um, you know, as like most people that time like no childcare, so we would just kind of like switch off. Um, and I did a lot of evening, um, online classes and so, um, I would work in the evening and on the weekend and um, when he wasn’t working during the week, um, and then we’d like switch, um, child childcare or caregiving roles um, when I was done. Was not an ideal, like not an ideal setup. <laugh> as I’m sure lots of people know, um, but we knew it would, would be kind of temporary. I did not, um, end up getting furloughed. Um, so everything that he made, we threw into savings to save up for this move that, like, we weren’t at that time it was like, do I get a job? Do I get another job? Like do I keep my job and do it across the country? Like, what’s gonna happen? Um, but we knew that we likely wouldn’t have an employer paying for our move, so we were saving up for, it’s expensive to move across the country, <laugh>. Um, so we were kind of thinking towards that goal in terms of finances at that time, um, of saving up for this potential move the more like life happened. Um, with my mom being kind of in and out of the hospital and then having a baby and all these things, I was ju- I got so like burnt out and just like exhausted from life that I was like, I just need a break <laugh>, um, from like a, a higher stress career. Um, and so I made that decision to, to step away, um, just to kind of like let myself breathe a little bit, even though there’s like plenty of <laugh>, plenty of stress and all those things that come with caregiving, um, and taking care of family members. But um, not having the added stress of a job on top of that or like a full-time faculty job, um, felt a lot better to me, um, than than trying to stay or to move into another role.

The Two Income Trap

Emily (13:39): We’re going to continue with your story in just a second, but I wanna make an observation. Um, which is that there was this book that I read, actually my husband was assigned this book in college for some class he was taking, I read it afterwards. Uh, it’s called the Two Income Trap and Elizabeth Warren is the author or co-author or something like that. Um, and so it’s about how middle class families fall into what she calls the two income trap, which is we have two full-time jobs between the couple and our lifestyle consumes all of, you know, most all of that income. And so I see in your story, you and your husband intentionally avoiding the two income trap by if ever there was more than a hundred per- Yeah. Let’s say more than, um, one full-time job between the two of you. Like you said, that was going into savings. It was like an intentional like, um, uh, safety plan or like a backup plan, right? To get, have him get that part-time job when you had income uncertainty. And so at the point that one person has to leave a job or chooses to leave a job or whatever, then the other person, that couple can step up, take a full-time job and still be providing completely for the family because you’ve intentionally set your lifestyle so that only one full-time income is needed or something, you know, close to that. Um, so I just wanna make that observation. That’s very unusual actually, it these days. I mean, even since that book was published, it’s become more the case that people fall into and live in the two income trap because cost of living is so high compared to incomes. Um, so I just wanna make that observation and ask you like maybe how intentional that was from the finances side. I certainly understand why you would do it from like a lifestyle perspective, but how about from that financial perspective? ’cause your husband also has at least a master’s degree, right? He’s also like highly educated.

Jill (15:27): Yeah, yeah. He has a master’s degree. Um, I think the, I think when we first decided that he would be a stay at home parent, that was like a, definitely a financial decision there in terms of like childcare is so expensive. Um, and his, he has a master’s degree, but he’s in, um, his background is in counseling. Um, which not to say you can’t have a really high income with a counseling degree, but they’re not necessarily known for like super, super high incomes. Um, and so we figured that like him getting a job when I was working my faculty job, like most of that would be going to childcare, student loans. We don’t- rather him be able to spend, you know, his time with our kid, um, while I’m working, um, than be at a job and, and have our kid in in daycare. I’ve been budgeting for a long time in terms of like looking at what’s coming in, what’s going out. Um, and so we had a good sense for like what we spent in various areas and what we knew obviously what my salary, um, was. And when we moved to Oregon, he didn’t have a job so we were living on just my income and continuing to make it work. And so it stuck. Um, and we like the flexibility that it allows. I think we’ve just gotten so used to that <laugh>, um, that like, I think to have us both working feels like even though financially it would be really helpful, um, from like a logistical perspective, it just feels like, oh, I don’t, I don’t wanna do that. <laugh>.

Emily (17:14): Yeah. I remember thinking when my husband and I bought and moved into our house three years ago, it was the first time we were homeowners that there was just so much work to go around <laugh>. Like he works full-time, I work part-time and we have children and we have a house to take care of. My goodness, what is this? There’s just a lot of work to do and it’s, it is very, very helpful if there’s not in the mix two full-time jobs as well. Right. Um, so let’s pick up back with your story and about, um, you know, gearing up and for that cross-country move.

Financially Preparing to Move Across the Country

Jill (17:46): Yeah, so that, so we moved in 2022 when I, um, when I made the decision that I was not going to look for another job, my husband started talking to people at his work about like, can I, like how can I get to full-time? ’cause we knew that my benefits would not be around forever. Um, and so he was able to move into a full-time position in the, the same role that he was the same like customer service role, um, that he was in. This was like two months before we moved. It was kind of like last minute, last minute switch. Um, it was not, the pay was not great, but it got us benefits and we had a lot in savings. So we knew like we will be okay for a little bit, um, and we can do like a more, um, focused job search when we get to where we’re going if, if needed. Um, he continued to, um, look at open positions within his company and the month we moved, moved into another role with his company, um, higher paying, um, full-time remote position, which is where he is, um, current-, what he does currently. Um, and all of those things like allowed us to make all of this work without having to do too much like of a like major job search and, and um, like taking time off to interview and all these things like it since it was at his, um, employer already. And it was just really, really helpful. <laugh>,

Emily (19:26): Tell me about the cost of living difference between where you are in Oregon and where you live now.

Jill (19:31): Yeah, so in Oregon, um, we were in Portland, which is a high cost of living area. Um, and now we’re in Richmond, Virginia, which I was looking it up, it looks like it’s about average, maybe like a little below average, um, in terms of cost of living. So that was another really helpful move for us. Um, in terms of the house we bought here in Portland would’ve been like way out of our way out of our price range. Um, and so it’s just made some, some things possible that we probably, if we were moving back to like where I’m from in the DC area, I know you’re from there too. Like we wouldn’t have been able to <laugh>, um, buy a house probably at all the income difference. So when I was working as a professor, my highest salary, um, was just under 75,000 for like the 10 months. Um, so not super high. Um, we made it work. Um, and right now our total income is like a little bit above that, like 77,000. So that includes my husband’s salary, my part-time work, and then some interest income. Um, and so we have like roughly the same salary in a lower cost of living area, however, we’ve added one child, um, to our family. And so like we’re not saving anything right now. Um, and we’re not doing anything with student loans, as I mentioned. And I think it’ll probably stay like that until my daughter, my younger daughter is in kindergarten and I can add on like a client or two. Um, but I think like there are different seasons of life. Um, I think this is a season where like the benefits of, of flexibility, um, with our schedule and our time, um, and having a low stress job, um, they really outweigh, um, having that second full-time income right now. Um, and I know that it’s just like this period of time, not forever.

Emily (21:36): I, I think I’ve mentioned to you before, but I’ll say it for the benefit, um, of the listeners who have children or may want to have children in the future. But parenting wise, everything got so much easier. When our youngest got to kindergarten, like I felt like my whole world opened up <laugh> because they’re just so much more independent by that point and being in school and everything. So I can definitely see like just the lifestyle choices that you need to make, you need to make, to get through that like young child period. And like you just said, it’s not gonna last forever. Like things will be different in just a few years. Um, and so you can always make a different career decision. Either one of you can at that point.

Commercial

Emily (22:14): Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, budgeting, investing, and goal-setting, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2024-2025 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/financial-education/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutes enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Starting a Business While Working in Academia

Emily (23:32): Let’s talk now about your business. Like why did you, um, start it? Was it primarily motivated by money or something to do with your time and your brain? Like, tell us how that got started.

Jill (23:44): The business has had like various iterations over the years. So when I was working as a faculty member, like my role was like community manager, um, for another person in the personal finance space, um, Jamila Souffrant with Journey to Launch. Um, and so I got a taste for like entrepreneurship, um, through working with her. I did that for about a year and a half. Um, and since that time I had like tried out a bunch of different things, just like curious about like, oh, there’s all these people making money online. Like it’s opened up a <laugh> whole new world. Um, to me in terms of like what it just broadened, I guess my perspective on making an income, um, and that it doesn’t have to be the traditional jobs that we, um, think of like doctor, lawyer, professor, all these things. So I kind of was playing around with various things. Um, on my way out of my faculty role, I thought perhaps I’d wanna do some like coaching for, um, faculty who are interested in like leaving their jobs. Um, and I used some of my professional development funds, um, to pay for some training, um, in that area ’cause it was like aligned with what I was doing too with students. So I was able to kinda make a case for using money for that, um, or my professional development money for that. But to like run a business, you also need to fund it. I needed more, um, money to like fund the business, um, that I didn’t want to pull from like our personal income. And so, um, as I was kind of thinking about how to do that, um, I think you emailed your list at one point, um, needing, needing support. Um, and this is after I left my my faculty position. You emailed the list, um, needing some support. ’cause you had somebody who had left and I was like, oh, that fits with, um, like what I, you know, the skills that I have, um, interests that I have, um, I’ll apply. And um, so we started working together and kind of since that time I’ve really enjoyed supporting, um, other like small business owners. Um, and I have moved away from the coaching. Um, I did that for a little bit, but really like I enjoy the, the supporting other entrepreneurs. Um, and so, um, right now I work with you and I have one other client, um, just provide-, like it depends on like the needs of the business. A lot of like backend support once my, I thought about adding another client. Um, and I think once my daughter, um, is in kindergarten, I think I’m, I’m setting my sights on, on that time for expansion. But I think right now, like two is a good <laugh> a good number for the amount of time that I have, um, uh, when my daughter is in preschool ’cause it’s not, not many hours a week <laugh>.

Emily (26:38): Yeah. Well this is, um, just a curiosity on my part because I know that the work that I ask of you is very seasonal. Um, so we have a really busy tax season and then less at the other times of year, but sort of variable from week to week and and month to month based on your interest in like productivity and everything like that. Like do you have any, I don’t know if it’s for me, but strategies for people who go through like busier and less busy, like periods <laugh>?

Jill (27:02): I think what I find at least for myself is like really, I think it can be easy to like try and force yourself to use like, uh, you know, whatever task management tool. Um, because other people are using it or like, it, it could be so easy to get into like, well other people are using this and they say it works. Um, I’m just gonna like force myself to do it. I think using what, um, works best for your brain, um, is helpful. So I just had like, I used to use notion a lot, um, which I still love for like my planning, um, and all those things, but I’ve been finding that like just I needed something a lot more simple. Um, and so now I just have like a notebook where I like keep track of things, um, and write things down and check them off. Um, and so I think really like don’t, if something isn’t working, try something else. Like figure out a system that works for you and your brain and that might change depending on like the time of year it is. Um, and, and what you’re doing. Um, but don’t like, feel like you have to force it to make it work. Um, ’cause that just makes it that much harder. <laugh>.

Emily (28:19): Yeah, I’ve been reflecting. So as you know, we use Asana, um, to keep track of tasks and I find that if I get really busy, I need to go outside of Asana and use paper. Um, because in a task management system like that, I mean, I could blame myself too. It’s not necessarily the tool, it’s the way I use the tool. Um, I find that like everything is given so much equal weight <laugh> when they’re all like different check boxes on the screen and I’m like, actually one of these is much, much, much more important than the other ones. And so the paper helps me clarify like, what are my real priorities for the day or the week or whatnot. Um, not just like, what is my task management software telling me to do? Um, and I think I’ve been listening to a lot of Cal Newport recently and reading his books and stuff, and I feel like this is the difference between, I can’t remember what he has, like some kind of name for it, but basically like checklist productivity versus like actual, like getting things that are important done, uh, productivity. So when things get really busy, I have to draw a distinction between those two and focus on, uh, what’s actually important versus what I’m, I’m being told to do by my software <laugh>. Uh, let’s leave with some words of advice then a little bit more advice than I usually ask my guests because the first sort of person I want you to think of is a person who’s considering leaving a tenure track position or maybe even just maybe even before that point, like someone who was going down that route and maybe is deciding to leave graduate school or not pursue a postdoc or just basically step off of the path that they thought they were on. Um, do you have any advice for, for that person considering a major career shift?

Advice for Major Career Shifts

Jill (29:48): I’m thinking about the things that were helpful for me that I did. Um, I think one of the main things was like creating a plan, um, both financially, logistically on what things could look like. Um, when you leave wherever it is you’re at. Um, I had so many spreadsheets, so many like notion databases of just like different iterations of like what me leaving my job could look like and where we would move would look like. Um, and I think obviously this, like, this will change depending on if you’re going into another job. Um, if you’re, you’re taking a break between jobs, if you’re staying at home, if you’re starting a business, um, if you’re moving, um, I think there’s like a lot of different aspects of that that when you create like a, a detailed plan as as detailed as you’re able to get, um, I think those things can become a little bit clearer for you when you have it all out, all out on paper, um, or the screen or wherever. Um, I remember my, when we were in the process of like our move, we would have move meetings like once a week, my husband and I of like, okay, like what are the things, like here’s this big goal, like what are the things we need to do to get it done? Um, that was very helpful. But, um, yeah, so I think those things were like intertwined, um, in, in this process, especially if you’re tenure track faculty, I can’t speak to like being a postdoc, um, and grad school, this might be a little bit difficult. Um, but I think using the resources that are available at your institution to help support you and figuring out what you wanna do next. Um, so I think I mentioned earlier, um, if you have professional development funds to use, is there a skill you wanna build? Um, do you wanna get some career coaching? Um, do some networking at a conference, buy some books. Um, I think using any and all of the resources that are available to you, if you’re able to kind of make a connection to what you’re doing in your job, um, and it’s relevant to what you wanna do next, um, I think it’d be a helpful way to, to find that extra support.

Emily (32:02): Yeah, we’ve heard that advice actually from several other interviewees on the podcast who have made, whether it’s like a grad student, you know, graduating and moving on to something else or a faculty member. I’ve, I’ve heard that numerous times. It’s, it’s kind of amazing that people can make those connections between what they’re doing now and what they think they’re doing next and, and get training that is supportive of both of those roles.

Jill (32:22): Yeah, yeah. Another thing, like another resource, um, I guess that was helpful for me. It was just like I asked so many questions of HR <laugh>, um, and this process just like hypothetical, like if I were to like quit at this point in my contract, like how long will my benefits last? And just kind of getting those logistical pieces that are helpful to know like, okay, my, my husband needs to have his health insurance, um, by this date because mine will no longer be in effect. And if that doesn’t happen, we need to get temporary health insurance and all those things. I think HR can be a really helpful, um, resource, um, if you’re comfortable like talking with them about potentially leaving. So like when my dad died and my mom was hospitalized, um, I was doing all the like estate settlement and then I was considering going back and helping with my mom’s care. Um, and then Covid happened, so didn’t, that didn’t happen, but I talked through with hr, like I think at that point I was kind of considering like, do I wanna quit or do I just need like a, a significant break? And so I talked with HR about like, can I use FMLA to go care for my mom? Like how can I take a break without actually quitting and doing the things I need to do? Um, and I didn’t actually use, um, FMLA for my parents, but did for, um, uh, when my daughter was born. Um, if, um, like family medical stuff is, is, um, any anyone is going through that. Um, I think they’re also a helpful resource to talk through, like what your options are. I think another thing that was so helpful for me is to seek out other people who have done what you’re trying to do, um, and talk to them if possible. I had a lot of Zoom conversations, phone calls, um, just to talk about like how did they, how they made it work, any tips they had. And honestly, just to like, I think when you’re still in the position, it can be, it could feel like impossible. Like, this isn’t ever gonna happen. I’m not gonna be able to find something else, or I’m not gonna be able to make this work. Um, so just seeing o- other people, other examples of, of doing the thing that you wanna do, um, and is so, so helpful. Um, and there are a number of, at least for like leaving academia, um, Facebook groups. Um, if you’re into Facebook, um, Academics say goodbye. The professors out, PhD mamas leaving academia, those were three that I, um, joined and kind of like, um, looked into as I was trying to make that, um, decision. And I think also related to other people like using your network, including family and friends, um, like tell them about what you’re wanting to do. Um, even if they can’t support you directly, they might know somebody who might be able to help you out in some way. Um, whatever it is. And so I think that helped a lot, just kind of like sharing this is what we’re, we’re doing. Um, do you know anyone might that might, um, be able to talk to me about X, y or Z?

Emily (35:36): It’s, it’s not surprising to me that you were able to find so many other examples, um, of people who had left tenure tech positions or those Facebook groups, for example. It’s just a little sad, it’s just a little sad that this profession, people make it their identity so that leaving and they make an academia makes it seem like it’s a one way street, right? You can never get back. It’s a permanent decision. So people put a lot of weight on the decision, right? Um, and yet it’s also such a difficult place to survive <laugh> that a lot of people want to leave <laugh>. Um, it’s not, it’s not everyone’s dream job as it turns out once you’re actually in it. So, um, but that is really, really great. I thank you for mentioning those groups specifically and, and the networking aspect of it. And yeah, there, we’ve had numerous people on the podcast too who have left academia, so I’m pretty sure including Jill, any of those people would be good ones to reach out to. Um, if, uh, you aren’t considering the listeners considering, uh, such a shift. Um, okay. Let’s talk about advice then for another type of person, which is, um, someone who wants to start a business, let’s say on the side, like part-time, the way that you’re doing right now. Um, and they could be at any stage in their career when they wanna do that. Uh, do you have any advice for that person?

Advice for Starting a Part-Time Business

Jill (36:45): Yeah, I think, I mean, I think a lot of the I things that I just shared are, are applicable to, I think also the, the networking and just seeking out other people. There are a lot of people, especially academics who, um, start businesses it seems. Um, and so talking to those people, um, and asking kind of the same, same thing, like how, how did you make this work? Um, or like listening, finding other podcasts that, um, where, where people are talking about kind of these, these types of things. I think too, like if you’re in, especially if you’re in, you’re in a faculty position, like it could be helpful to look at like your university’s policies on having a, um, an outside, outside employment. Um, I know my previous university, because I was in social work, so a lot of people like saw clients outside of, um, outside of our like faculty roles. Um, and so there was definitely language somewhere. I can’t remember exactly what it, what it said, but it essentially like, as long as, if you’re working like during work hours, like no more than eight hours a week or something can go to your, um, like outside business, um, or outside income. Um, and so it’s just making sure that like, honestly no one ever talked to me or asked me about it <laugh>. Um, but I think just so that, you know, um, what the university’s policies are, I think that can be super helpful to, to look into.

Emily (38:19): I noticed something, um, when you were describing the start of your business as well, which was experimentation, um, which I did too. And I think a lot of people who start businesses also do, uh, in terms of like businesses that like make it, maybe they become big or you know, whatever, it’s usually those entrepreneurs like third, fourth, fifth, seventh business, like, it’s usually not the first thing they’ve ever tried and they’ve had either failures in the past or just things they’ve abandoned along the way. And you didn’t necessarily abandon your business, but you just tried different things, different activities, different ways to make a money, different types of clients and figured out what you preferred. And I’ve done that too, even within like personal finance for PhDs, different ways of making money, again, different clients to work with different modalities and like figured out what worked best for me. So don’t, I guess for the listener, like, don’t be surprised <laugh>, if the first thing that you try is not the thing that you end up doing, um, after some time and it’s perfectly natural and, and should be experimented on because you’ll, you’ll find a good fit along the way. Um, it’s not necessarily, even though we were just talking about visioning and planning, like it’s not necessarily that your vision is gonna work out exactly the way that you thought it would from the beginning, but you can get to that point by just taking steps. So just getting started with something is the most, uh, the best thing to do.

Jill (39:30): Absolutely. And you learn so much throughout that journey. Um, I think, yeah, I feel like from where I started, I think I started with doing, um, online, like planning, yearly planning workshops for faculty and, and grad students. Um, and just have learned an incredible amount. <laugh> since those days are just like, oh wow. Like I, this is actually, people are actually paying me to do this. This is, it’s wild. So I think it gives you that confidence and then you learn like what you, like, what you don’t like, and, um, yeah, it’s a journey. <laugh>.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (40:02): Yes. Um, okay. Well let’s wrap up with my official last advice question, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And that can be something that we’ve touched on in the course of the interview or it can be something completely new.

Jill (40:16): I think knowing exactly what is coming in and what is going out in terms of finances, um, at least for me has been so impactful. Um, knowledge is so powerful, um, especially about your finances. Um, it allows you to make more informed decisions. Um, and I think there’s something about seeing all that data, um, at least for me, it’s really motivating, um, in terms of like, you know, reaching savings goals or like seeing your retirement funds grow or it, I think it’s, it helps you, makes you wanna do it more. Um, at least I, I found that <laugh>, um, and I think like tracking those, like your expenses and income in a way that works for you. I know there’s like a ton of different budgeting apps and tools. I alway- I’ve used a spreadsheet, um, for a long time, um, and have tried out some apps, but just like I can’t, I always come back to the spreadsheet. Um, and so each year I start out with a new spreadsheet. Um, I have a tab for each month that looks at, um, what we spent, what we earned, um, that I’m updating on a weekly basis. And then I also keep track of like, um, savings, retirement, mortgage, student loans, um, on a monthly basis. Um, but that spreadsheet, um, has so much, it’s, it’s interesting to look at over the years and in preparation for this interview, I was looking back from like 2019 to now and it’s wild. Just like all the changes, um, that have gone on financially for us.

Emily (41:53): Yeah. And I think that the tracking, like you said, knowing your numbers, knowing what’s coming, what’s going out, um, enabled you and your husband to make those big financial decisions about jobs and moves and, and where to live and buying and all the things that have happened in the last few years. Um, because I think that people who sometimes people can get so, um, emotionally, um, intimidated by looking at their numbers that they don’t and they, it becomes an avoidant thing and then they become paralyzed and they’re not able to make those like bold decisions to change their lives because they just really don’t know what’s possible. They can’t do the visioning exercises, they can’t do the planning because they’re just not looking at the numbers. And so that’s just the first, the first step is really just to be able to like open that bank account, you know, um, you know, open it, look at the transactions, like look at the balances and everything and it all kind of like flows from there. Um, I was actually just listening to Ramit Sethi’s podcast. Um, I will teach You to Be Rich just earlier today, and the episode I’m listening to as so many of his episodes are the people he was interviewing, the couple, they were telling themselves a story about their money that was absolutely not true once you actually looked at the numbers. And it’s so clarifying to actually look at the numbers and the answers can come from the numbers. You just have to be like, brave enough to face, you know, the data and, uh, yeah. So I’m, I’m really glad to have this story from you, this example of how, um, your finances and your career and everything have all like played together and how you’ve been able to make those big decisions to do what works for you and your family, um, especially during the, the young kids season, the challenging time of life. Um, yes. So thank you so much Jill for volunteering to come on the podcast. It’s been lovely to speak with you, uh, in a different way than we normally meet

Jill (43:31): <laugh>. Yes. Yeah, thanks so much for having me, having me back on the podcast. It was fun.

Emily (43:36): Absolutely.

Outtro

Emily (43:36): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This PhD Conducted a Job Search and Evaluated Multiple Offers in the Private Sector

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Sean Bittner, a newly minted PhD in biomedical engineering, on how Sean navigated finding and landing his first post-PhD job in medtech innovation. Sean timed his start date for immediately after his grad student position finished so as to not miss any paychecks, and they discuss how early Sean started networking and applying for positions to enable that smooth transition. They also talk through the strategies and tools that were most helpful to Sean in the job search process. Finally, Sean lists the elements of a job offer and what questions you need to ask to fully understand the salary and benefits. This conversation will benefit current graduate students and PhDs who are planning to pursue private sector jobs in the near or far future. You won’t want to miss Sean’s powerful concluding advice!

Links Mentioned in the Episode

How This PhD Conducted a Job Search and Evaluated Multiple Offers in the Private Sector

Teaser

00:00 Sean: Graduate school doesn’t always, I think, do a great job of reminding students of their worth. Of not just financial worth, but also their work worth and just like worth as an individual. But that was huge in my job search, was understanding like, no, no, I deserve to be here. You know, I deserve to be having conversations with working professionals that I admire that I think are, you know, extremely brilliant and hardworking. Like, I deserve to be here because I’m those things too. I did a PhD. I did these other things that qualify me to be here. This is myspace and I get to take it.

Introduction

00:42 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is Season 10, Episode 14, and today my guest is Dr. Sean Bittner, a newly-minted PhD in biomedical engineering, on how Sean navigated finding and landing his first post-PhD job in medtech innovation. Sean timed his start date for immediately after his grad student position finished so as to not miss any paychecks, and we discuss how early Sean started networking and applying for positions to enable that smooth transition. We also talk through the strategies and tools that were most helpful to Sean in the job search process. Finally, Sean lists the elements of a job offer and what questions you need to ask to fully understand the salary and benefits. Don’t miss Sean’s powerful concluding advice! Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Sean Bittner.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:48 Emily: I am delighted to have Dr. Sean Bittner back on the podcast. He was actually a guest on season six, episode 12. This was while he was in graduate school. We talked a lot about budgeting, how he and his wife were budgeting accrding to their values. Fascinating episode, recommend listening to it. But Sean is back because he very recently finished his PhD. We’re recording this in mid-September. He finished last month, and also started his post-PhD job last month. And so we’re going to be talking about that process of like, how do you do the job search, like while you’re finishing up your PhD? And how do you evaluate job offers? So really excited to talk to you, Sean. Will you please introduce yourself further for the audience?

02:26 Sean: Sure. Yeah. Thanks again, Emily. My name is Sean Bittner. I’m a recent PhD grad in bioengineering from Rice University. Recent as in four weeks ago. So very exciting, still kind of in the thrill of being done. And then, yeah, I also started my post-PhD job the day after, and I’m excited to just chat about the job search, and all the things to think about.

Timing Between Finishing PhD and Starting New Job

02:53 Emily: I know, because this is something that I’m sure is on the minds of many, many graduate students. Definitely in like the year when they’re finishing up, but maybe even the multiple years before then. This can be a great conversation for postdocs as well. Even people who have already navigated one job search might, you know, pick up some tips or at least some different perspective on how you did things. Of course, this always ends up being very individual, but so happy to hear your story. So the first thing I want to ask about is timing, because you just mentioned that you didn’t miss a paycheck between finishing up with your however you were being paid, assistantship or fellowship or whatever, and going into your job. So like, wow. Like if that was your goal, how did you manage to work out the timing that way?

03:32 Sean: Yeah, yeah, so this is a good thought. I would say it was a long time planning. There are a couple of elements there. One is scheduling the thesis defense, I think is always a little bit hairy just based on having to get four or five, six people in the same room at the same time. It’s hard. But I actually defended my thesis two months ago, so it was July 13th and had about a month’s worth of just wrap up and carry over after that. But I also had two weeks of vacation to use still. So right after defending, my wife and I took a much=needed, I think well-deserved vacation. And I came back, I had two weeks of work left, and then I was trying to set it up so that, okay, I’m done.

04:12 Sean: I already took my vacation. So I don’t need to take a bunch of time off between grad school and work and trying to get a start at my new job. Some of the companies that I was looking at were starting immediately, or starting a week later. But it wasn’t, you know, start in two or three months. I think I tried to make sure that it was just a consistent transition. I also wouldn’t necessarily know what to do with myself for three or four weeks off. I just, I like, I don’t know, having a purpose and going and doing some cool stuff.

04:41 Emily: Another thing you mentioned in there is that you defended two months ago, and then you had this bit of extra time, which I think is really good idea. You’re going to have to do edits on your thesis. Maybe you’re trying to get a last paper, you know, submitted or there’s always kind of wrapping up stuff. So I definitely think it’s good to time that defense a little bit before your pay would end.

04:59 Sean: Right.

04:59 Emily: It sounds like you, like were you paid through the end of a normal like semester term, like the summer term, or was your end date like somehow, otherwise negotiated?

05:08 Sean: Yeah. So, this is another good question. It depends on the department, the advisor, the school. The academic year is also your pay year at Rice, for grad students. And that ended on August 15th. After you defend your thesis, you can have a conversation with your department and with your advisor about, okay, how long do you actually need to finish everything up? And the discussion that we had was, I’m going to take two weeks vacation. I haven’t taken that yet. When I get back, I have about two weeks worth of work left to wrap everything up, finish any final changes and edits to my thesis. I didn’t have the last paper to try to complete on the tail end. So I didn’t have that time crunch. But then also there are students still working in the lab. So, you know, making sure that they kind of have a good turnover plan, I don’t want to just leave them high and dry and say like, oh, bye I’m out. You know, I wanted to make sure that everybody that I could assist in bringing up to speed, I did that before I left.

Transparency About Job Start Date Flexibility

06:08 Emily: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like you sort of knew that this date, this, you know, academic year turnover was a reasonable date. And so did you time your job search process then around knowing that was the ideal date to start, like mid-August?

06:22 Sean: Yeah. I had more of a guesstimate than a true date. Like, I didn’t know for sure, “Oh, it’s definitely August 16th.” Right? But I had an inkling of when my thesis defense would be, I knew it would be late summer, ended up being the middle of July. And when I was job searching, I was very transparent about that. Some people were looking for, “Oh, we need you to start on Monday.” Obviously that didn’t work out. And then some people that I was talking to later, I was open from the beginning. I’m interested in this opportunity, but it’s going to be sometime in August. And all of those companies had hired PhD students before. So they’re familiar with the idea that I don’t necessarily know the exact day I can start. But I got out of the way pretty quickly any really serious mismatch, like as I said before, I was talking to somebody briefly and they were like, yeah, we are excited about you, but we don’t have a job open until January. And I said, Hmm, I don’t think I can wait that long. And I’m glad that I didn’t because, you know, we’ll talk about this later, but I love the job that I’m in. So, I wouldn’t have wanted to wait for a maybe of a job that might open. But I think I was as clear as I could have been, I guess that’s the way to put it.

07:35 Emily: And let’s talk, I’m going into so much detail about these timing questions, because for me it was a source of stress and I think it’s a source of stress for other people as well. So for the types of jobs that you were looking for, it sounded like the company’s timelines were quite wide-ranging from, I want you to start next Monday, you know, if they were to hire you to, we have many, many months lead time on this. And it’s a little bit different from the academic search process, which is a little bit more well-known. It’s, you know, these fixed portions of the year that are dedicated, determined from parts of the process. So how did you like figure out what these timelines were and then therefore be able to backtrack and know how early you needed to start these conversations and start applying?

08:16 Sean: Yeah, I would say it was unique to every company, honestly. Similar to how you mentioned with the academic traditional academic pipeline, there are fixed dates in a normal schedule. And even with coming from undergrad, thinking about getting a job straight out of undergrad, there’s kind of a fixed schedule. You apply in the fall. You might hear something December, January. They expect you to start in May. Like that’s a standard thing. And so when I was looking at this in February and March of this year, I was kind of thinking the same thing, like, okay, I’m going to start talking to people. But I’ve learned, I work in the med tech space now, and I learned that it’s really dependent on what each company’s needs are at that time. Some companies I talked to, they had to fill somebody that day, like they needed somebody immediately.

09:00 Sean: And some of them, it was, you know, our fiscal year doesn’t roll over until August and we can’t add a new position until then, right? So I knew it was going to be, like I said, I knew it was going be sometime over the summer. And so I was trying to narrow down to some people. And again, just trying to get them to work with me a little bit flexibility-wise on, I won’t be available until August, but on the other hand, I will be available in August, right? And so like, how can we work this out?

Starting the Job Search

09:30 Emily: And so, maybe you said this and I missed it. So how early did you start your job search?

09:37 Sean: It’s a little hard to narrow it down just because like I would say, you know, I was talking to people for quite a while. I would say I was talking loosely to people as early as the fall, maybe winter of 2020. And then I started to have more serious conversations about job stuff in maybe March of this year.

09:58 Emily: So it went maybe more from like networking, feeling each other out to like, okay, we’re going to like put pen to paper and like get your name in front of somebody.

10:06 Sean: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And, I can’t remember the exact date, but the call that ultimately got me in front of the people to get me in front of to get the job that I have now I think was in June, maybe. So a relatively quick turnaround in terms of, or compared to what I was expecting. You know, I was thinking like, okay, I’m gonna apply in March and they’re going to have me start five months later. And it was pretty quick.

10:34 Emily: Yeah. I guess I’ll chime in a little bit more on this timing. And of course I have not had a “job” job post-PhD, but my husband has. He has also a PhD, and so he works for a startup and it was quite small at the time he was hired. I think he was maybe employee number 12 or something like that. And they hired him and another one of his colleagues right around the same time. And for him, it was a very quick interview process because he was already in a postdoc that was very casual. It could end at any time. And so he was like, yeah, like we want to get started in a month or two or whatever. Like totally we can do that. That’s how quickly he was hired. His colleague who was hired at the same time, had a start date of about six months later.

11:12 Emily: So that same company was very flexible with these two different candidates. And probably that’s because they’re a startup that they could be that flexible. But I just thought it was interesting that like both of them were like, you know, coming out of PhD, coming out of postdoc and had different timing needs and the company was able to accommodate both of them.

Network or Nothing

11:29 Emily: So when you embarked on the networking that ultimately led to applying, what, you know, had you picked up in terms of strategies, maybe from your professional development during graduate school, maybe from outside sources, that were really useful to you during that period?

11:44 Sean: Yeah. So I think I’ll start with the easiest one. Everybody says it, it’s almost a cliché, but it’s really true. It’s network or nothing for the most part. It’s you got to know somebody. And I don’t mean like, oh, your, your dad’s on the board or like you have a family friend. But all of the jobs that I applied for, I knew someone that put me in front of someone else that put me in front of somebody else. Zero of them were I had the most compelling application on LinkedIn. And I think, like I can’t understate that enough, I guess. Like LinkedIn is super useful for finding information, getting connected to people, learning about the different types of jobs that are available. But ultimately, it’s a stack of resumes in terms of applying. And in fact, I didn’t actually formally apply, in the traditional sense, until well after I had had an inkling that the company was interested in me. And that’s true for all of the companies I applied with. So I think the number one is work on your network, reach out to people, just try to get in front of, you know, get some face time, and tell people who you are and why you’re excited about them.

12:52 Emily: You’re right. Everybody says networking and it’s really intimidating for a lot of people to hear. So please, can you be more specific about like, who was in your network? Like who were those first, the first layer of people that you like reached out to, and then maybe there was another layer, but who was that initial network?

Network Composition

13:09 Sean: Sure. So, of the opportunities that I was considering at the time, each of the companies I got connected to by one person, or in one case, two people. One of them was a former manager of mine. They had moved on but was connected to one of the companies, introduced me. The second one was another student in one of the master’s programs at Rice, went and took a job at this company. And I kind of knew them and I was familiar with the company. And I just said, “Hey, I’m interested in your job. Can you tell me about it? Not that I want to take your job, but I’d like to maybe work for your company.” And that’s actually the job that I ended up taking, is they ultimately connected me with their boss, and that person’s boss is the CEO. And we sat down and had a chat.

13:57 Sean: And they just said, “Yeah, we’re looking for somebody. You seem like you fit the bill. Let’s let’s talk.” The other one was somebody I had worked with in the past. I had done a little bit of, of just like, I guess, diligence work is the best way to describe it. But I had done some work for them in the past when they were at a different company. And then when they moved, they said, “Hey, I have a job open. Do you want to talk about it?” And I said, “Sure. You know, I’d love to chat.” So all of the people that I networked with, it wasn’t just, again, I reached out to them once on LinkedIn. It was people that I’ve worked with explicitly in the past that can speak of my skills, that can speak of, ideally, my personality. People that knew me more than just a face that’s that’s on LinkedIn.

14:44 Emily: Absolutely. I totally agree, that first layer does not have to be like reaching out to strangers. Like no, it should be people who, as you said, have some personal connection with you, hopefully through work, but not necessarily, who can then, you know, forward your name onto the other right people. And I think that, you know, current graduate students like need to know that their peers around them, and potentially their advisors and other professors around them as well, can very well serve as that first layer. So I know one of my, like sort of regrets in graduate school, was not being better connected with the other people in my program, especially the people ahead of me. Let us just say, leaving Duke before me, whether that was PhDs graduating before me, whether that was masters students or undergrads coming in after me, make those connections, too. Because they all are going to be out there potentially, you know, in a place that you’d be interested in working. So those connections are so, so important. And that networking, the “networking” quote unquote, is just your normal connections with other people who you work with and are around during your graduate degree. It’s much more casual at the beginning, but you have those loose connections and then you can pull on them later as you did. And just let them know, I’m looking for work. I’m going to be graduating at approximately X date. Your company sounds cool. Can we talk about that more?

15:59 Sean: Yeah, I think I had, I don’t want to say an easier time, but I have a fairly gregarious personality. It maybe becomes a little bit more natural to me to just kind of get out and talk to people. But it’s really true that, maybe not the reason I got my job, but like the connection that got me the job that I have is a masters student that I knew left Rice before I left Rice, was working at the company for a few years and I said, ‘Hey, can we talk?” Done. And that was it.

LinkedIn and Beyond

16:26 Emily: So we mentioned networking, you mentioned LinkedIn. Did LinkedIn come into play, particularly in your search, given that networking in real life was actually what led you to, you know, the right place?

16:40 Sean: Yeah, so again, I think it’s a good informational tool. It certainly came into my search in terms of figuring out what other people in my field were doing. And then also, in a lot of cases, LinkedIn was the first touch point. For example, this masters student that I’ve talked about a couple of times, that was my first message on LinkedIn, was, “Hey, can we, you know, have a phone call and set it up?” Everything after that was phone calls, emails, et cetera. But the first message was LinkedIn. And same thing, you mentioned other students in your department, other students in your program and at the university, some of my other connection points were prior students in my lab that graduated years before me with their PhD. But you kind of have this like familial relationship because you came from the same lab, you know. They want to see other students from that lab succeed. So same thing, you know, either LinkedIn or just having access to their email and just cold emailing and say, “Hey, I’m from so-and-so lab. I’d love to chat about your own experience in job searching. Can we set up a call?” But yeah, LinkedIn is hugely useful. I think it’s just not the beginning and the end, it’s the beginning.

17:51 Emily: Yeah. Any other strategies that you want to share with us that you found useful during this process?

17:54 Sean: I think one thing to keep in mind that we maybe haven’t touched on so far is, the network that you have is bigger than you think it is. And that’s not like a empty hollow way of saying, like, you don’t know who other people know until you ask them. Example: I have a friend of a friend who, when I said, I’m interested in this company that I’m looking at, they said, oh yeah, I know so-and-so manager at that company, let me put in a call. And I didn’t ask for that. You know, I didn’t ask for, can you recommend me? I just, they asked me about how my job search was going, and I was honest about it. And the next day I got an email and said, oh yeah, I heard from your manager, friend. I’d love to chat. Let’s talk about it. So there is the element of like, you have to network, but there’s also asking, just being explicit and asking your friends and your colleagues, like who do you know that might be able to help? Because that’s ultimately what we’re all here to do. I would love if somebody from my lab, my department reaches out to me that knows me and said, “Hey, I’m looking for a job. Can you help me?” Love to, I’d be happy to help if I can.

19:02 Emily: Yeah. I think that’s a really common human thing. Like if we can make someone else’s experience go easier, it’s something that we’ve already done in the past. And you’re also, you know, if you actually get a hire, like you’re also helping your company and so forth. So it’s kind of like a win-win, win-win all the way around for networking.

Commercial

19:20 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. If you are a fan of this podcast, I invite you to check out the Personal Finance for PhDs Community at PFforPhDs.community. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to take charge of their personal finances by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products, including my recent set of Wealthy PhD workshops. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, and progress journaling for financial goals. Our next live discussion and Q&A call is on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021. Basically, the Community exists to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to PFforPhds.community to find out more. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

The Anatomy of a Job Offer

20:33 Emily: Okay. So, you’ve networked, you’ve gotten your name in front of the right people, you’ve interviewed, and you’re finally getting, you’ve mentioned a few different job offers. And so what actually did the job offers look like, and what were the components that you were sort of considering?

20:48 Sean: Yeah. Yeah. So, this is, I think the meat of the conversation today. The standard job offer, I feel like, baseline, has two components. You have base salary, and you have ancillary benefits, whether that’s vacation time or sick time, like just time off basically. But, there are other things to consider there. And so, it’s interesting. I kind of had the gambit of a variety of different things that were part of the quote unquote package. Here are some things in no particular order that it could be: straight salary and, you know, vacation or sick time or whatever. One of them might be salary. And if you’re at a startup, it’s salary plus stock in the company, it could be. Some other things that other companies do is you have a salary, but also we have a retirement plan, whether it’s 401(k) or 403(b). You’ve talked about that a couple of times with other students, or I guess other professionals now on the podcast. Those things are things to keep in mind. Whether the company offers health insurance or not is hugely important.

21:54 Sean: But all of these things together are a much larger conversation than just the salary number that you see on maybe your job offer. Something else to keep in mind is you may not see those other things on your offer letter, if that makes sense. So not that they’re, you know, trying to be hidden or anything like that, it just may not be part of the standard form email that you get of like, “Oh, we’d like to offer you this job. Your compensation is this, you have this many weeks off.” I asked I think all of those questions to all of the companies, and they were very forthcoming with the information once I asked. But it wasn’t part of their standard letter. There’s also some differences in time. Sorry, I’m kind of all over the place.

Variable Employee Benefits

22:36 Sean: As an example, the company I work at now, the time off policy is really generous. I think it’s everything, sick vacation, et cetera, is all PTO, or paid time off, but it’s unlimited PTO, right? So, I don’t have this weird situation where like, “Oh, I’m out of sick days, but I’m sick. Or my kid is sick, or I have to take my animal to the vet or something.” And on the other side, like I don’t have to feel like I can’t use any of my vacation days, right? Like there’s a very open policy about that. Some of the other companies, it was very explicit. You have 40 hours or 40 hours of sick leave and, you know, two weeks of vacation or whatever. I would say that’s more of a standard notice. It’s two or three weeks vacation and then a fixed amount of sick time also.

23:23 Sean: On the stock side, I think there’s pros and cons to stocks. I’m not a huge single stock guy, for retirement. So, you know, when I look at single stocks, it’s kind of a gamble. You know, they could be worth a huge amount of money if that company skyrockets. They could also not be worth very much if something happens and, you know, especially in biotech. That comes and goes, right? And so like, you kind of got to weigh, okay, is this a gamble I’m comfortable taking? And then the last piece, I talked about retirement before. One of the companies I was looking at offered a retirement package. It was, I forget if it was a 401(k) for 403(b). But it was required participation up to a certain amount. So, it wasn’t a match, it’s just they set it up so that, you know, X percent of your salary has to go in no matter what. That can be valuable because it prevents you the legwork of having to go set it up yourself.

24:15 Sean: But, as you’ve talked about previously, if you’re interested in having a little bit more control over your own retirement package, you can set up an IRA. You can just set up external mutual funds. If they have a plan at work, they will send you information about the funds that they have available. And you can kind of make a decision on how was the track record for these funds? Can I get, you know, better returns elsewhere, whether it’s an IRA or just a mutual fund in a non-retirement account. I think all of that nuance like doesn’t immediately come to mind when you’re first looking at a job, but it is important. And I also want to just put a small asterisk here. Money is only part of the conversation. Ultimately I took the job that I took because I love the work, and I’m really passionate about the type of work that I’m going to get to do. But it is part of the conversation.

25:08 Emily: Love everything you said, like, exactly right. The salary is going to be upfront. Maybe the time off policy will be upfront. Maybe they’ll mention something about healthcare or retirement or insurance or something, but you’re probably going to have to do another layer of questions and say, “Hey, send me your booklet on your, you know, retirement policy, and I’ll take a look at it.” Or like, let me know, like, you know, I mean, insurance is such a massive, massive issue. Especially, like I’m thinking, you know, I’m married, we have two children, we’re all on my husband’s workplace insurance. So like how much of a premium his employer pays versus how much he pays. The deductibles, all that stuff matters a lot because we have a lot of people riding on that one, you know, policy.

25:49 Emily: And maybe, you know, you have to evaluate how much that matters to you, but if you are supporting a family on one insurance policy, you could be looking at a premium of a thousand dollars a month easily for an employer that doesn’t help out that much, or even more, versus an employer who pays a hundred percent of the premium or 90%. It’s a massive, massive difference. But that’s very individual, you know, you have to really decide what’s more important to you. Is it the vacation policy? Is it the healthcare? Is it that the retirement plan has a match? And that’s super, super good to you or whatever. And maybe that’s why they’re not that upfront with this because like salary matters to everyone, but like maybe there’s different levels of caring about these other elements.

26:26 Sean: Yeah. And it could also be you know, no fault to the company. It may just not be prudent to kind of give all that information out upfront. So for example, some of the companies that I looked at, I knew that there was a retirement plan. Or I knew that there was health insurance provided. But in the case of health insurance, which you just talked about, I didn’t actually know what coverage was available to me until after accepting the job, or in the case of one of the ones I didn’t take, until after I would have accepted the job. So, that’s also a little bit of a gray area where, okay. I know that there is some type of insurance provided, but I wouldn’t get to decide whether, like you said, it would be better for my wife and I to stay on my wife’s insurance versus change over to this new one until actually taking the job.

Comparing Job Offers

27:12 Emily: Exactly. So you were in the fortunate position, the well-timed position of having multiple offers, it sounds like simultaneously, or at least like overlapping or something on the table. Yeah. And so you could actually look and say, not it’s a yes or no on this job, but like, what do I like about this job offer versus this one? And of course the work’s important. You mentioned that the work matters, I would say most. But the salary and so forth benefits are part of that. So how did you do this like comparison? And also, did you do any negotiation knowing that you had, you know, competing offers?

27:43 Sean: Yeah. So this is a good question. I think I did it in tiers. The first tier was, like you talked about just now, the nature of the work. The job that I have now, it wasn’t until realizing that that job was available to me, that I realized how excited I was about that type of work, right. And so, I think there’s something to be said for like, if it’s financially feasible, of course this is a personal finance podcast. If it’s financially feasible, pick the job that you enjoy, because there are going to be some days that you don’t enjoy. And I think those days go down better at a company that you enjoy doing work that you like, as opposed to at a company that you’re not super thrilled about, but you’re getting paid a lot to do it. So that’s, you know, obviously tier one.

28:27 Sean: Tier two, this is a personal finance podcast. I looked at kind of the, just as much as I could, apples to apples of each of them. Again, I talked about, I knew that there were benefits for all of them. I didn’t have insight into the specific coverages and all of that until actually taking the job. So in terms of like evaluating them, I picked the one that was what I consider an optimum. It was the best combination of salary and benefits and I’m passionate about the job. And then in terms of negotiation, I didn’t really negotiate, in part because I knew that the offers that I was getting work were competitive with what I would expect for the types of roles I was getting. So I didn’t ever really push back on, oh, you know, I think I’m worth this much or, you know, this other, I didn’t really do any of that.

The Tactic of Honesty

29:19 Sean: What I did do was be transparent about wanting the job. For example, I did have a favorite and obviously I took that one. But when we were having that conversation, I was transparent with them and I said, this is my top choice. I’d love to do it. Like, how do we make that happen? And it wasn’t until I think like sometimes employee applicants and employers are playing this game of chicken of like, I want to be vulnerable and tell you that I want you, but I don’t want you to say no, right? And so like, there’s this weird tension. And I just, I tried to cut through that and say like, if you guys are not interested in me, cool. You know, like I get that. I’m going to go pursue another opportunity. But if you are, like, I’m really interested in this, let’s make it happen. And I think that ultimately sealed the deal because they also were probably thinking a little bit of like, we like him. We’ve said we like him, but we’re not really sure where he’s going. He said he has a couple of offers. So I know it can be a little nerve-wracking, but like, there’s something to be said for transparency and honesty, if that’s part of the conversation.

30:27 Emily: I think that, it sounds like, you know, that conversation was prior to the formal offer being made, right? Like that could have been what tipped you over into getting an offer versus maybe we’ll go with another candidate, you know, that sort of thing. So like, I think at that stage, you use that tactic really well. Honesty, the tactic of honesty.

30:45 Sean: Right. Yeah. And I think, so another, I guess small detail that’s important here is, I knew the terms of what an offer would be for each of the companies before actually receiving the offer. So that’s, I think part of it too, is like the formal paperwork wasn’t filed, but I knew what it would be talking about. There wasn’t a part where I came in and something, you know, surprised me totally out of the blue. I wasn’t expecting that. So that might be part of it too, is I think that there was a little bit less formal, like I’m applying, I wait for my offer letter, I consider the offer letter and more of a fluid, like, I know what we’re talking about. Everybody’s kind of on the same page in terms of information, and now we just need to make some decisions.

Tell Us More About Your Job

31:28 Emily: Yeah. That’s really good insight. I think for anybody who has not had a job in the private sector, and they’re not really sure, especially, let’s say particular to your space, and of course this is going to vary across other companies, but like, it’s good to just hear someone’s experience and how you navigated that. So tell us a little bit more about the job that you actually took. What is the nature of the work that you’re doing?

31:47 Sean: Yeah. So, I’m going to be working in we’ll call it, I guess, med tech innovation or med tech support. So basically what I’ll be doing is helping support startup companies in the medical device space, getting them prepped and moving through the different stages of development, helping, you know, maybe teach them some core concepts about regulatory and clinical trials and all of these things that they have to do to get their product to market. I’m, I think excited about that aspect in particular, you know but now I’ve really fallen in love with this coaching and teaching space over the last couple of years. So like I’m going to get to do that as part of my job, which is super cool. And then I also get to stay in the science realm without actually, you know, holding a pipette myself, which was, I think ultimately my goal coming out. That’s something I didn’t think to talk about earlier, but that was part of, I knew kind of the nature of the work that I would want coming out of grad school, which was, I want to be involved in science, but I don’t necessarily want to do the science myself. I think I see myself more as a coach, a mentor, a supporter of other individual contributors than I see myself as one.

Role of Side Work in Career Path

33:05 Emily: Given the skill set that you’ll now be using that you developed partially through the coaching and teaching side work that you were doing during graduate school. How much of, you know, how important was it that you pursued those side endeavors in ultimately, you know, formulating and landing this particular job and career path?

33:24 Sean: So, I think it’s a good question. I think the answer is a little nuanced. Over the course of my PhD, I did a couple of different things. I did the traditional research route. Of course, that’s what I got my PhD in. I also did some short-term consulting at a nonprofit in town. And then I did, as you said, coaching and training, more leadership and career coaching style. All of those things were relevant in the job search, in getting the job that I ultimately have. In fact, the fact that I have a PhD in bioengineering, I think qualified me to be even at the table having the conversation. But the things that sold me, that you know, put me over the edge were these other ancillary things that I was doing. And going back to the networking piece, an ancillary skill that you have is conversation, right? I work in now, medtech innovation. There’s a lot of handshaking and smiling and waving and chatting and, you know drinks over dinner. Like there’s all of this kind of stuff in this field. And so having gotten experience in learning how to evaluate startup companies, in learning how to decide whether a team or a founder or somebody is coachable, is willing to do the work and learn. Those are things that I didn’t get through five years of bench work, but are incredibly relevant to my job.

It’s Okay to Just Be You

35:00 Emily: I think what I’m taking away from your explanation there is, during graduate school or during these earlier phases of training, you be you. You just do the things that you want to do, learn the things that you want to learn, explore different opportunities, figure out what you like. And it’s okay. In fact, it may be very helpful if some of those things are not strictly grad student role kinds of things, strictly at the bench, strictly just publishing papers and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, and if you are you during graduate school and you’re pursuing all these other things that you like, it will help you find and craft a job and career that you actually like later on, don’t try to fit yourself into this like I’m just a researcher or I’m just a teacher mold if that’s not you. If it’s you, perfect. Grad school is great for you. If that’s not exactly you, you need to explore these other areas because you don’t want to be stuck into a mold that you don’t fit in for the whole rest of your career.

35:57 Sean: Yeah. I think that’s true. I do want to, you know, obviously present the caveat of like, it’s true, you’re getting a PhD in the stuff that you’re doing at the bench or in the case of, you know, non-wet lab stuff, in the stuff that you’re doing for your degree. So you do have to obviously do that and do it well. I think there’s value in, you know, crafting a really strong body of work. That being said, there are a lot of people that they do their research, and that’s what they do. That I think qualifies you to be at the table to get jobs that people are looking for PhD hires for. And in the case of a more traditional academic route, like kick butt at publications and grant writing, all of that. Hugely important, and those are the things that are relevant to your job.

36:44 Sean: But that’s not necessarily the case for everyone. And in fact, again, personal example, of the offers that I was considering, only one of them was even really closely related at all to the specific work I was doing. So I think I talked about this last time, but, my PhD was in the 3D printing space. I was looking at bone and cartilage printing. That bioengineering experience was more relevant to one offer. For all of the other job opportunities, they were interested in my coaching background. They were interested in my knowledge, not only of science, but of like the startup environment. Those are things that I wouldn’t have learned just in my lab work because the lab work’s not designed for that, right? The lab work is designed for the really detailed, basic science level type work that is used to eventually create some of these opportunities.

Best Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

37:40 Emily: I think that was very, very well put. I ask my guests as you know, a last question, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? I think we just got some fantastic advice, but do you have any others? It could be something we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely different.

37:57 Sean: Yeah. So, I guess two, because I’m not great at following directions. The same thing that we just talked about, which is, I think there’s real value in pursuing and carving out whatever path makes the most sense for your career, whether that’s a traditional academic route, whether that’s something else. Finding and doing and pursuing opportunities that are relevant to that. I think the other thing is, we’ve talked about this before, and you’ve talked about this with several students on the podcast previously. Graduate school doesn’t always, I think, do a great job of reminding students of their worth, of not just financial worth, but also their work worth and just like worth as an individual. But that was huge in my job search was understanding like, no, no, I deserve to be here. You know, I deserve to be having conversations with working professionals that I admire that I think are, you know, extremely brilliant and hardworking. Like, I deserve to be here because I’m those things too. I did a PhD, now that might be because I’m stubborn, but like I did a PhD. I did these other things that qualify me to be here. And I’m not a poser. I’m not taking somebody else’s place by being here. Like this is my space and I get to take it.

39:16 Emily: Wonderful. I think this interview is going to be so useful to graduate students and postdocs who are, you know, looking forward to this post-PhD career transition, especially into the private sector. So thank you so much, Sean, for joining me on giving this interview.

39:29 Sean: Sure, sure. Thanks for having me again.

Outtro

39:37 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! pfforphds.com/podcast/ is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. On that page are links to all the episodes’ show notes, which include full transcripts and videos of the interviews. There is also a form to volunteer to be interviewed on the podcast. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved! If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, here are 4 ways you can help it grow: 1. Subscribe to the podcast and rate and review it on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whatever platform you use. 2. Share an episode you found particularly valuable on social media, with a email list-serv, or as a link from your website. 3. Recommend me as a speaker to your university or association. My seminars cover the personal finance topics PhDs are most interested in, like investing, debt repayment, and effective budgeting. I also license pre-recorded workshops on taxes. 4. Subscribe to my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe/. Through that list, you’ll keep up with all the new content and special opportunities for Personal Finance for PhDs. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.