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Best Practices in Side Hustling During Graduate School

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In this episode, Emily interviews Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok, two PhD students who work on this podcast as virtual assistants. Today’s conversation is all about side hustling! Lourdes and Meryem each give their perspectives on why and how they started side hustling, how they manage their time, and how they handle their self-employment income with respect to taxes and budgeting. Throughout the interview, you’ll get a behind-the-scenes perspective on how this podcast is produced. The end of the interview is a discussion of the unexpected benefits Lourdes and Meryem have experience from working on the podcast.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

side hustle grad school

Teaser

00:00 Meryem: Every once in a while, if I need to make an extra purchase or a gift, I will kind of rationalize with myself, “Okay, I was able to make some extra income this month with the side hustle so it’s okay to spend that extra money.” And essentially that’s not a super cut and dry method, but it sort of helps me at least to rationalize my additional expenses and not get too anxious about finances during grad school, which is really, really nice to have that cushion outside of my usual budget.

Introduction

00:36 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast and higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 18 and today my guests are Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok, who are both PhD students and work with me as virtual assistants on this podcast. Today’s conversation is all things side hustling. Lourdes and Meryem each give their perspectives on why and how they started side hustling, how they manage their time, and how they handle their self employment income with respect to taxes and budgeting. Throughout the interview, you’ll get a behind the scenes perspective on how we produce this podcast. We close the interview discussing the unexpected benefits. Lourdes and Meryem have experienced from working on the podcast. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok.

Will You Please Introduce Yourselves Further?

01:31 Emily: I’m bringing you a little bit of a different interview today. This is the first time on the PF for PhDs podcast. We have had three people on the call at once, that is two guests interviewees, and it’s really special to me because the people I’m interviewing today are my virtual assistants who work on the podcast with me, Lourdes Bobbio and Meryem Ok, and they’re both PhD students. We’re going to get into more about side hustling today, like the side hustle that they do with me and their experience with that, maybe their experiences side hustling with other people. So yeah, we’re talking side hustling today and I have my two guests with me. I’ll have you introduce yourselves, so Lourdes, why don’t you go first?

02:10 Lourdes: Hi everyone. My name Lourdes Bobbio. I’m a fifth year PhD candidate at Penn State University in the Department of Materials Science, and I work on additive manufacturing of metallic materials.

02:23 Emily: Yeah. Lourdes was actually a guest on a previous podcast episode and we will link that from the show notes. We did a budget breakdown with Lourdes, so we talked through her budget there in State College and Meryem, please introduce yourself.

02:35 Meryem: Hi, my name is Meryem. In 2016 I started the MD PhD program at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill — go Heels. After completing the first two years of med school in 2018, I started my PhD in UNC-NC State’s joint Department of Biomedical Engineering. Currently I am working in the Magnus Lab, developing tools to better understand human intestinal STEM cell fate. And I’m happy to say that I’m officially a PhD candidate as of two days ago.

03:05 Emily: Yes. Congratulations! We will record and release this in August 2020, so it’ll still be fresh news by the time this episode comes out. I’m just delighted to have you both on.

Why Side Hustle In Grad School?

03:17 Emily: First question here is why did you decide to start side hustling in graduate school? Why don’t we still go with Lourdes first?

03:25 Lourdes: Financially, I was doing actually pretty okay with my stipend. As Emily mentioned, I was previously on an episode where I discussed my NDSEG fellowship, and so I generally have a somewhat higher stipend than my peers and State College has a generally low cost of living. So financially I was doing, in terms of I had enough money to live on and for extras and to save, but the reason that I got into side hustling was so that I could have money to contribute to a Roth IRA. I think Emily has done an episode on this earlier in the year, but as of this current year 2020, fellowship recipients are now eligible to contribute to a Roth IRA, but previously they were not. I started one before I was being paid on fellowship and I wanted to try to contribute at least a little bit of money monthly to that, so having that side hustle, self employment income helped me to be able to do that and continue to contribute, even though I couldn’t with my general fellowship income.

04:32 Emily: That’s so strategic. I love that. It is the advice that I was giving out for people who had multi-year fellowships, is to consider that self-employment side hustle. Meryem, why’d you decide to start that side hustling.

04:44 Meryem: For me, I guess coming into medical school, I had actually taken a gap year and was able to transfer a lot of those funds into starting an IRA, so for me, it was less of a strategic approach and more just that I’ve really always had a lot of interests in gaining new skills and collaborating with other people outside of my primary career interests. I think specifically, actually, as far as video and podcast editing, I was inspired by my dad who is always the one recording all of our family memories and making home videos. And he actually founded and produced a public access TV show called Turkish American TV. That’s been going on for 15 years, completely as a passion, volunteer project. I remember many times he’d rope me into his projects and show me how to use video and editing software, and I really just felt lucky to have his guidance. I feel like I inherited his eye for detail since that’s helped me be more confident in marketing myself as a freelancer who just really genuinely enjoys editing. I guess for me, just as someone who needs to have hobbies and tasks outside of work, I wanted to try something new and also make a little extra income in line with my career development goals.

06:03 Emily: Maybe we should say what you all actually do for me with the podcast, to give you credit where credit is due. As the listeners know, I conduct the interviews for the podcast, but kind of everything that happens after that, I hand off to you two. So you do all the video and audio editing of the interviews, and you compile the show notes, which are actually full transcripts. It’s more work than it sounds actually. We use an automated tool to generate the first transcript, but then you go through with a careful listen and make it actually readable, which I really appreciate. And you also write the social media posts that we do for each episode, and you schedule things. There’s a few other tasks in there too, but those are the major pieces of work. It’s been an amazing help for me.

How did you find your current and previous side hustles?

06:44 Emily: I know how you two landed this side hustle, which is that I reached out to my mailing list when my last VA decided to leave the position. Thankfully, she gave me a lot of notice. I reached out to my mailing list and said, “Hey, podcast listeners, do you want to work on the show?” And you two both volunteered to do a trial episode and ultimately your work was great, so I hired both of you. But I don’t know if that’s the first side hustle you’ve had in graduate school, or whether you were even particularly looking for that kind of side hustle, or really how it came about kind of from your end, so why don’t you tell us. Lourdes?

07:19 Lourdes: I had done a couple of side hustles through freelancing websites. There was actually one particular one that was captioning and transcription of usually short audio files through this company called Rev. It’s basically just pick and choose these audio files and you get paid. It’s a very low paying job, but it was something that I did just sort of in my spare time. When I heard about the opening on this podcast, I was like, “Hey, this is perfect. This is like what I was doing before, but on sort of like another level and sort of a next step up.” It seemed like a perfect fit for what I like to do in general anyway, just on a higher level.

08:07 Emily: Yeah. Meryem, how about you?

08:09 Meryem: Yeah, that’s so funny, because actually that’s the first time I’m hearing this. For those who don’t know Lourdes and I actually went to undergrad together, so the fact that we serendipitously ended up as virtual assistants for the same podcast and kind of working together was phenomenal to experience and to find out. For me, I also was trying to look into doing these things independently through similar websites, but it was not really a sustainable effort or something that was really worth the rate that they were paying. And I felt like it’s so much more useful to be able to use these skills and also benefit from all of the knowledge that I’m gaining as I’m editing these episodes, which is relevant to us as graduate students trying to better our personal finances. Really it was a no brainer when I saw that email from Emily and reached out and I’m just so glad that it worked out and that we were able to take turns, Lourdes, and still have an activity shared together despite the distance and the years since college.

09:15 Emily: Yeah, that’s why I reached out to my list first, to try to hire for this position. I hoped that there would be people who would actually be interested in the material as well as having the skill set to work on the episode, instead of going with an independent agency or something, which I could have done, maybe if it hadn’t worked out, initially. I wanted to go to people who I sort of had a relationship with, and actually it happens to be the fact that I had corresponded with both of you over the years before that — we mentioned Lourdes had been on the podcast and Meryem has been on my mailing list for a long time, so we had exchanged emails and I think had call or two in that time. It was really helpful that I knew your names at least, when it came time for people to apply for that position. Meryem you have, since we started working together, taken on another podcast editing position, why don’t you talk about how that came about?

10:08 Meryem: Yeah, that’s right. Actually, I owe it to you, Emily, for alerting me to another side hustle opportunity in podcast editing with the AcaDames podcast, which is another awesome podcast focusing on women in academia. Earlier this year, I remember Emily sent an email to us, letting us know that AcaDames was looking for help since their previous student executive producer was graduating soon, and they wanted to have somebody to overlap during that period of transition. I reached out to them about that position and thankfully we were a good fit. Now I just feel really lucky that I get to work with these two amazing podcasts. My work with them partially involves editing, but also involves a little bit more of administrative and social media management work. I’ve just learned so much from both podcasts and I’m excited to be involved. And also again, benefit from all of the career development advice that I’ve been receiving just by working with both of them.

11:09 Emily: Yeah. I think it’s kind of interesting that for these positions, this podcast virtual assisting position and the AcaDames one, it sounds like we’re looking for someone who’s going to be doing a multiplicity of different things and you come in with maybe some subset of the skills, like Lourdes, you had the transcription type experience, but then we’re asking you to learn a bunch of other stuff which expands your skillset overall, even if you’re not going to be career podcast editors. I assume you’re going to do something with your PhDs, but it’s nice to have that kind of side work, I think.

Balancing Side Hustles, Grad School, and Personal Life

11:36 Emily: Between the side hustle, your graduate work, everything else that’s going on in your life. I know you two are both in relationships — Meryem, you recently got married. Lourdes, you’re engaged. You have a lot of stuff going on in your lives. And so how do you fit in this side work that you’re doing, along with everything else? Lourdes?

11:55 Lourdes: I guess for me, what attracted me to the side hustle specifically was that it’s something that I can work on from home. I don’t have to go anywhere to do anything, and I can kind of fit it into my schedule. It’s very flexible. Emily is super nice, in that she gets us a lot of heads up time between when we get audio files and when they’re going to be released. So there’s a lot of flexibility in the position, which is definitely something that I was initially looking for in side hustles, as well, when I was doing the more freelance, low paying transcription job, it’s something I could do just in my own time, so that’s been helpful in terms of being able to work it into my schedule, work my schedule around it.

12:38 Lourdes: Also, like Emily mentioned, I’m engaged, but for the last year I’ve also been long distance, and so I’ve had a little bit more free time. It’s also been really great during this work from home time, to have something else to do. Now that you’re pretty much primarily at home, we’ve all been at home, things can get a little bit stale, but having a lot of different activities to do has been really helpful in managing my own mental health. I don’t feel like I’m only at home to do work and I get to sort of have some variety in my day, so that’s been nice.

13:22 Emily: How about you Meryem? How do you do the time management aspect?

13:25 Meryem: Yeah, I want to echo everything that Lourdes said. I think it’s really nice, even without a pandemic, but especially during a pandemic, to just have something else to turn to when you need a break from grad school or just want to use a different skill set for a bit, or just kind of escape from the world. And right now, especially because of COVID, I tend to work a later shift in lab, and my understanding is Lourdes does as well, so the rest of our work is pretty much done remotely, which makes it easier, but also I have to be a little bit more diligent about priority setting and setting boundaries, because it is so easy to kind of just switch between projects both between my main job as a grad student and then my side hustles and leaving room for my personal life.

14:07 Meryem: Usually I’ll try to do this by reserving chunks of time to work on the podcast editing, either in the mornings or late in the evenings after my shift and maybe the weekends to kind of catch up, which is very useful for particularly busy weeks. I think just like setting deadlines and trying to stay organized to prioritize all the things that are going on is helpful. I will say that I recognize that it’s probably easier for me to manage everything that I have to do given that I don’t have too many responsibilities outside of my work and extracurriculars right now. I don’t have any human babies, but I do have a fur baby named Sabine, but she’s pretty self sufficient. I think overall it is pretty much managing expectations with myself and now with my husband, but overall I think, much like Lourdes said, you get into a workflow and we do have a lot more time at home so that does help a lot.

15:06 Emily: I’m just thinking how I would answer if I asked this question of myself, of how do I manage my time? Because I do have two human babies and no childcare in a pandemic and it is definitely more challenging now than it was a few months back to be handling my schedule. But I think what Lourdes brought up initially, the fact that in our schedule we have basically a two week cycle from when I get the raw interview to you two and then we have a two week process before publication, and Ithink that really helps. I know a lot of side hustle jobs are really quick turnaround, like super short deadlines, and it’s not even really so much on your end, like I’m giving you guys a lot of time. I need a lot of time to do my part of the process as well, because I can’t necessarily jump on a response right away, because it’s just a busy long day every day right now.

Commercial

16:00 Emily: Hey, social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15 minute call with me at PFforPhDs.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time, I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now back to our interview.

Budgeting Side Hustle Income

16:46 Emily: Okay, so personal financial show — let’s talk about the money that’s associated with the side hustle income. What are you doing with the money from your income? Does it have a particular job to do in your budget or how are you handling it generally? Lourdes, why don’t you go first?

17:01 Lourdes: In general, I put most of my side hustle income into savings, whether that be more long-term savings or shorter term savings, kind of depends. If I have an upcoming trip, it might go a little bit towards that. In general, how I work my budget is that, I pay myself first, in that I put money aside for savings first, and then any money leftover is my money that I get to spend for the month.

17:31 Lourdes: One of the tips I learned from the first episodes I edited was a side hustle episode, I think it was Allie Judge, and she mentioned how she holds off on paying herself her side hustle income until the month after she’s earned it. So sort of working on a delayed schedule, in terms of using the money that she’s earned. After I heard that, I’m like, that’s a great idea, so ever since then, I’ve been doing the same thing, where I count basically any money I earn in August goes towards my September monthly budget. That helps me in terms of planning and not using the money before I’ve actually earned it. That’s how I mainly handle it in terms of budgeting.

18:22 Emily: Yeah. Thank you. Meryem, how does it work in your budget?

18:26 Meryem: I’ll be totally transparent in that I don’t necessarily have a specific allocation for my side hustle income, because for me it was primarily a chance to essentially have a hobby and use a different skillset. But I kind of do try to visualize it in a way that permits me to have those extra side expenses during the course of the month that you might not otherwise be able to do. For me, it’s kind of a mental exercise, and I do have the money go straight into a savings account that I don’t really touch, but every once in a while, if I need to kind of make an extra purchase or a gift, I will kind of, I guess, rationalize with myself like, okay, I was able to make some extra income this month with the side hustle, so it’s okay to spend that extra money and think of my extra purchases outside of my needs in terms of how much of my work and effort that is worth. And essentially that’s not a super cut and dry method, but it helps me at least to rationalize my additional expenses and not get too anxious about finances during grad school, which is really, really nice to have that cushion outside of my usual budget.

19:41 Emily: Yeah. That trick, that mental framework of translating the cost of a purchase into your time, or maybe number of episodes, or however you want to structure it, is a really powerful one, a really common one for people sort of were advanced in their personal finance skills to think about really carefully, like whether they want to make a purchase and how they want to spend and so forth to translate into time. That’s a really good tip.

20:07 Emily: I’m particularly thinking about this question of how to handle your irregular income with respect to your budget because, so in August 2020, I launched a community PFforPhDs.com/community, if you want to find out more about that, but every month I’m creating new content for it. Right now I’m working on the September content, which is on how do you handle your irregular income with respect to your budget?

20:28 Emily: Lourdes, the tip that you gave is basically the first one that I’ve already put into this, which is count up your income from one month and put it towards the next month budget, that you got from Allie. It’s absolutely perfect, because you never know when something could go wrong with your side-hustle income. Like if one of you became ill, for example, maybe you need to skip an episode. That’s not a problem for us, but it would be a problem for your budget if you’d already spent the money that you expected to come in. That’s number one, baseline tip for handling side hustle income is give it a delay. Meryem, you’re doing a similar thing by putting it directly into savings, and then later on thinking about, well, how do I want to spend it, or do I want to keep it here? Different articulation, but kind of the same principle there. I’m really glad to hear that.

Side Hustle Income and Taxes

21:13 Emily: Now we come to one of my favorite subjects within personal finance, which is taxes. So you two are both self-employed, you are contractors for me, and Meryem, now you have this other contractor, essentially you’re like a real true contractor working for multiple people with the same skillset. Self employment taxes are kind of a whole other ball of wax. You’ve been doing this for a year, do you have any systems that you’ve put in place or just what are you doing with it, with respect to your taxes? Lourdes?

21:40 Lourdes: For me, it’s a little bit of two different things. I generally set aside about 30% of my self employment income for taxes. That’s taking into account the about 15% self employment tax and then income tax being around 12%. But also, I am on a fellowship that requires me to pay estimated taxes quarterly, and so at the beginning of every year, I basically estimate how much — well, I know how much I’m going to earn from my fellowship, and then I basically estimated how much I anticipate earning from doing this virtual assistant for the podcast. Basically, I have ahead of time, I know how much I have to set aside each month for both my fellowship income and this side hustle income. I immediately put that into savings and I just don’t touch that money. It’s not even money that I think about. And then I tend to over save just a little bit in terms of taxes, just because I’d rather have a cushion. Last year, I think I was off by like $150 just because of other things. I also have some investments that will change throughout the year and change my tax situation, but I do tend to oversave just so I have that little extra cushion and I don’t have to take it out of other pockets of my savings. Then if I have extra money left over, I kind of use it as my own personal tax refund. So the government isn’t giving me any, but I have some extra money left over in my tax pot. I use that and just reallocate it usually to different savings categories.

23:23 Emily: Yeah. I handle my income from my business exactly the same way, so it sounds like you’re just incorporating the self employment tax issue into your existing structure for paying quarterly estimated tax. Meryem, I want to give you a chance to answer that one as well, because I know this is shifting for you right now,

23:39 Meryem: Actually I’m absorbing all of Lourdes’ tips because for me, I just, in the month also started receiving fellowship non-W-2 income. Prior to that, I wasn’t really thinking about estimated quarterly taxes as much because I didn’t have to deal with all of that. But now moving forward for tax year 2020 into next year, I will have to kind of be thinking about that. Even though the actual amount of taxes that I’ll from the side hustle income will be less than the amount that is necessary to be able to pay estimated quarterly taxes — so my original strategy was just to collect all of the receipts that I’ll receive from PayPal and then make sure that I back calculate the amount that I have to pay for the self employment tax and pay that come tax season. That original plan is fine if you know that you’re not going to owe the amount that you would need to, to not have to pay fees for not paying estimated quarterly taxes, but I like the strategy of kind of building it in so that by the time tax season does roll around, you’ve already paid everything.

24:45 Meryem: I actually think that I’m going to adopt that policy rather than shifting it and waiting until tax season. And as for my other side hustle with AcaDames, their structure is also changing since they’re recently going through the process of incorporating and becoming an LLC. Previously, and currently during the transition, I’m being paid through W2 income because it’s very easy to me to be able to do that as a UNC student and the cohost, or at least one of the coasts now is based at UNC, so it was really easy to deal with that through payroll and not have to worry about freelancing or independent contracting. But I imagine that that will also shift within the next year as they’re making this transition into becoming an LLC. So having all of these strategies in place now will probably be really useful moving forward.

25:38 Emily: Yeah, that’s good for me to know. Interesting. I should mention also, I just brought up the Personal Finance for PhDs Community, but for the last several years, I’ve had a workshop available for individuals on quarterly estimated tax and helping them fill out their estimated tax worksheet and form 1040. That workshop is now coming under the umbrella of the community. So anyone who’s wondering about how do I file quarterly estimated tax on my fellowship, that’s where to go for that particular workshop PFforPhSs.com/community. And I just told you, I’m thinking about in September, the training that I’m going to release on handling your irregular income with respect to your budget. Later on this fall, I’m planning on doing another full workshop on the self-employment side hustle that is so common for graduate students and PhDs, and how to handle that for your taxes, so a whole other tax workshop just on this topic of self employment taxes. That’ll be available if anyone needs help with that sort of thing. I’m really excited about creating because I’ve been doing my own taxes as a self employed person for a number of years, so I have a basic familiarity with it and I’m excited to do a bit more research to figure out how it works for other kinds of businesses as well. That’s where to find out more info there.

Unexpected Benefits from Side Hustling

26:54 Emily: As a second to last question here, have there been any benefits to doing a side hustle that you didn’t anticipate when you first took on the position? Lourdes?

27:05 Lourdes: Specifically for this podcast, Emily interviews a wide range of guests and a lot of them also have social media that they promote. I’ve been able to connect with some of the different guests on social media, just as a result of sometimes promoting the episode. They’ll see that I promote it, and then we connect, we end up talking, following each other on Twitter. That’s been like something I didn’t really expect to happen, but it’s been really cool because q lot of them are fellow grad students, and then just getting into that academic sphere of Twitter has been really interesting just to see all these different graduate experiences from people all over the country and all over the world. That’s been one of the most unanticipated benefit from this particular side hustle.

27:57 Lourdes: And then also, as has been brought up multiple times, I think Meryem brought this up, just learning a different skillset that’s something very different from what I do in my normal day to day graduate work. And I, in particular, am starting to figure out what I want to do after grad school. I’m a fifth year student going into my sixth year, so I’ve been leaning towards maybe some more like alt-academic jobs, and being able to have this completely different skill set is definitely something that I think adds to my resume and adds to potential job options and sort of also gives me ideas of what other type of work is out there. Along with what I was mentioning before Emily does have so many different types of guests on the podcast, just seeing what opportunities are available to graduate students after they’ve defended and after they graduated, has been really interesting and something that I hadn’t even considered or even thought of prior to really getting to know some of these guests through the podcast.

29:04 Emily: Yeah. That’s really great for me to hear. I know that this too was an unexpected benefit for me of doing the podcast is I didn’t expect it to be such good networking. I knew some things that would happen from it, but not the networking aspect, so I’m really glad that you’ve been able to tap into that as well. So Meryem, how about you?

29:24 Meryem: Yeah, I agree completely with the networking component as this amazing side benefit of being involved with editing the podcast. And I think for me also, I just find it inspiring how relevant the episodes have been in my own personal journey as a student, often in real time. In fact, I’ll never forget that the very first trial episode that I edited was with Dr. Katie Wedemeyer-Strombel about her decision to change labs and how to prepare for the unexpected in grad school. And it just so happened that that exact same week that I was editing that episode, my former PhD advisor surprised that our lab with an announcement that she would be leaving UNC and moving across the country, and all of this was happening while I was trying to plan a wedding with my fiance, and now husband, who had just moved down to Chapel Hill to start a new job, to be with me after we’d been long distance for so many years. And anyways, it ended up working out and I was able to switch into an amazing collaborating lab and stay at UNC, but unbeknownst to Katie, her advice at that time was so timely for me and helpful for me as I was going through that transition. So I always rave about the podcast to pretty much every grad student I come across and I try to send along helpful episodes and resources to them if it sort of just happens to come across in conversation. It’s just amazing to me how many times that, that has just happened, where I’m editing an episode and realizing, wait, I really need to pay attention. This is really relevant to my life right now.

31:00 Emily: That’s really good to hear. Of course you told me at the time that that episode was striking you in that way and I’m so glad that I could help. I think that, as Lourdes, as I was saying earlier, I’ve been doing this podcast for about two years now and I have quite a few interviews under my belt and it’s not always the same type of person, as you were saying. It’s a lot of different kinds of personal finance stories coming from a lot of different sorts of people who have been in academia for a time at least. There is a good trove of episodes there, that you might find something useful to your current situation, if you do a little diving into the archives.

Best Financial Advice for Early Career PhDs

31:34 Emily: Last question here, which, you know, I ask of pretty much all the guests who come on the podcast. I’ll give you a chance to give your answers as well. What is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And we’ll go to Lourdes first again.

31:48 Lourdes: For me, I think one of the best things for me is having a yearly budget. At the beginning of the year, and I’ve been doing this for quite a few years now, I lay out my plan for the year financially on a spreadsheet, and it really helps to be able to see a longer term plan for my money for the year. I think, especially with self employment income, side hustling, it kind of gives you an idea of…Maybe I have a trip planned later in the year, or I have some big event that I’m going to need to save up money for, and being able to more strategically allocate your money on a larger scale rather than just month to month. I think that’s been one of like a strategy that I’ve been employing for a couple of years now, and it’s just been super helpful for me, and it’s something that I will see myself doing like far into the future

32:44 Emily: That is, I think, typically a good piece of advice, but I want to know how it’s going in 2020.

32:50 Lourdes: It’s been interesting to say the least. There have been a lot of…I had some trips planned that have gotten canceled, so I have this extra money, but also different expenses that I didn’t anticipate come up. And it’s been a little bit of am eye-opener in terms of plans change as the year goes on, but I think sort of having that framework to begin with helps me realize that even if…I go back to this budget every month, it’s the same spreadsheet I use for my monthly budgeting, so it changes and updates and it’s a very fluid document, but just having that outline there to begin with has also been something that provides some structure, especially when the year got so different than what everyone anticipated.

33:43 Emily: Yeah, I also use the year as the sort of standard timeframe when I talk about irregular expenses, so expenses that come up non monthly, and you and I talked about this in our interview from a year or so ago. I think it’s a great strategy to think about what budgetarily is coming up for you — trips, as you mentioned earlier, or maybe some other kinds of irregular expenses, so you can anticipate them over the course of about a year. So yeah, I like that time frame as well. Meryem, how about you? What’s your best advice?

34:12 Meryem: Yeah, so my best advice is probably to be honest with yourself and keep an open mind about your personal finances. A wise friend once told me that disappointment happens when our expectations don’t match up with our reality, which was really helpful for me to hear at the time, as an optimist, because I used to feel a lot of guilt or disappointment if I couldn’t maintain an unrealistic budget, or if I couldn’t resist making an impulse purchase on something that maybe wasn’t necessary, but made me or someone else really happy. But I also think it’s really important for our mental and physical wellbeing to work towards a healthy relationship with money, which I know can be particularly challenging on a grad student’s stipend. So with that in mind still, I think as best as you can try to be honest with yourself and set realistic goals for yourself, not based on anybody else’s priorities or spending habits, but whatever matches your needs. That being said, if something really isn’t working for you, that’s probably a good time to have an open mind and try to adapt, effective strategies from others. I guess I would say it’s okay to experiment and even take calculated risks, while figuring out what works best for you, but being honest yourself and keeping an open mind is probably my best financial advice and general life advice as well.

35:44 Emily: I love that as well. I often think about the mismatch between expectations and reality, and how that provokes us, so I try to keep my expectations low, basically. I really love that advice and I think that’s unique. I don’t think we’ve heard that on the podcast before, but I think it’s perfect. And something that graduate students can sometimes be discouraged around their finances because they are working with such a low income, it’s for such a long period of time, and I talk a lot about investing and saving stuff and that’s just out of reach for a lot of graduate students, but they can implement your advice, Meryem. They can like learn to just figure out what’s going to work for them in managing their own finances right now and carry that skill set and that habit, whatever it is that they determined as the right system or whatever, forward into their career and post-PhD income, and hopefully have a lot of financial success at that time, having been honest with themselves and really using the time in graduate school to get to know what their preferences are with respect to managing their finances. That’s good advice for anybody, anytime. You can always implement it.

36:46 Emily: I’m so glad to have had you two on the podcast and thank you so much for volunteering to do this. Thanks for coming on.

36:53 Lourdes: Thank you, Emily.

36:54 Meryem: Thanks Emily.

Outtro

36:56 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How a Freelancing Career Can Take You from Academia to Affluence

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In this episode, Emily interviews Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. Courtney became a successful freelance writer after leaving her PhD program in anthropology and moving to one of her field sites. She now teaches other academics how to launch freelancing careers through her course, Endless Freelance Income. In this interview, Courtney gives us her #1 piece of advice for new freelancers, which all academics need to take to heart! She also outlines the simple steps it takes to get your freelance career off the ground. Courtney’s location-independent business has enabled her to earn a very nice income on very part-time work, which will be attractive to academics looking to freelance for a side or main income.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

academic freelancer

Teaser

00:00 Courtney: I actually do not work full time. I work maybe 15 or 20 hours a week. But I actually still earn a full-time income because I get paid well.

Introduction

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 17, and today my guest is Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. Courtney became a successful freelance writer after leaving her PhD program in anthropology and moving to one of her field sites, but it wasn’t all smooth sailing. She now teaches other academics how to launch freelance careers through her course, Endless Freelance Income. In this interview, Courtney gives us her best advice for new freelancers, which all academics need to take to heart. She also outlines the simple steps it takes to get your freelance career off the ground. Courtney’s location-independent business has enabled her to earn a very nice income on a very part-time schedule, which I know is attractive to academics looking to freelance for a side income or main income. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:17 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today Courtney Danyel of Academia to Affluence. And I just want to tell you, in one second, how Courtney and I first met online, which is that I saw a post that she wrote a few months back on Jobs on Toast, and I saw her business name, Academia to Affluence, and I was like, this is going to be a good fit. I need to talk with Courtney. So, Courtney, will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself and why your business name is what it is and what you’re up to?

01:47 Courtney: Okay. Yes. So sure. My name is Courtney Danyel. I am an anthropologist by training, but I actually wear quite a few different hats. I’m a freelance business writer also. I’ve been doing that for the past seven years. And as an anthropologist, I’ve worked in Africa in the Central African Republic and Ethiopia. And I actually currently live in one of my field sites, which is Ethiopia. I’ve lived here since I started freelancing seven years ago. And another thing that I started doing late last year was I started mentoring other academics and other people with an academic background to help them transition into freelancing and actually have created an online course for that purpose.

Top Advice for an Academic to Start Freelancing

02:30 Emily: Yeah. So the course name is Endless Freelance Income. I’m actually affiliate for Courtney’s course. I had an opportunity to check it out, you know, before this interview, I think it’s fabulous. And if you want to find out more about that on my end, you can go to pfforphds.com/freelance and find out more about Courtney’s course. And I actually have a couple of bonuses for people in my audience who want to sign up for her course. So, first, you know, right up front, we’re going to get some insights from this course. And then we’ll learn a little bit more about Courtney’s background and her personal story that got her to this point. So, Courtney, your absolute top advice for an academic looking to start freelancing, what is it?

03:10 Courtney: My number one piece of advice for academics who want to start freelancing is to command high pay from day one. That’s because that’s a major mistake that I made when I first started freelancing. I had finished my master’s and I had done part of my PhD and I ended up dropping out of my PhD and decided to switch to freelancing. And as far as I was concerned, I thought I was starting from zero because I was doing freelance writing and I’m writing about topics that aren’t related to my academic discipline. And so, “I don’t know what I’m doing.” And that’s basically what I thought about myself. And so for that reason, I didn’t think that I deserved very high pay. And then I took a lot of jobs that didn’t pay very well at all.

03:57 Courtney: Actually, for the first year and a half or so that I freelanced I was not paid well at all. And then one day I was doing some research for an article that I was writing. I did a lot of ghostwriting back then, which is you write content for other people and it’s published under their name. And I was doing some research for an article that I was ghostwriting for a client. And I Googled something and I clicked on an article that was on forbes.com and I looked at it and it looked familiar. And then I realized that it was written by me. And after I realized that, I started doing some more Googling and I found that my content, stuff that I had written for my clients, had been published on Forbes, Vice, Business Insider, entrepreneur.com and like all these different top business publications. So, that’s what made me realize that, wow, I guess I am a really good writer in other niches besides just anthropology. And I do deserve to be paid well for the work that I do. And after that, I raised my rates, tripled them really, and basically never looked back.

05:05 Emily: I think that this advice is, one, good advice just for everybody, but two, something that academics or post-academics really need to hear, because we are kind of conditioned during graduate school to undervalue ourselves. And it takes really a lot of mental work–and for you a year and a half of actually working in your new field–to undo that conditioning, that mindset that’s been instilled in us. So, I think that it’s something that this audience really, really needs to hear. And I have found as I’ve been involved in academic entrepreneurship spaces, this is one of the top pieces of advice that we pass to one another, which is just raise your rates, raise your rates, raise your rates. I mean, we’re so conditioned. Yeah. We’re so conditioned not only to undervalue our time, undervalue our work, but also think that service is something that you have to do for your job, which I guess in academia, yes, you do have to, but outside of that, no, you should be paid for the value that you bring.

Courtney’s Course Covers Base Pay in Different Freelance Fields

06:09 Emily: So, anyway, it’s a wonderful, wonderful piece of advice. So, actually one thing I wanted to mention is, something I liked in your course is that you speak, of course your experience is in writing, but in the course, you cover a lot more than that, right? Freelancing is a lot more than just freelance writing. And so you talk about base pay rates that you can kind of expect in different fields. Right? I thought that was really that you just got the research jump-started a little bit for the people in the course.

06:40 Courtney: Yeah. You know, for me, I’m basically almost a hundred percent at this point, just a writer, but I actually have a lot of experience freelancing in other areas also, including doing editing and data science and different things. Because you can dip your nib in a lot of different freelance niches. And I also wanted to make the course really open to people who have different skill sets from what I have. Not everybody’s an anthropologist. They have different things, different skills that they bring from academia that they can earn good money from in freelancing also. And so, the course actually introduces several different popular niches, including writing and editing, translation, data science, consulting, sales, and marketing. So, you can kind of discover which one is the best fit for your current skills.

07:30 Emily: Yeah. I mean one of the fields you just mentioned, consulting, is always one that’s very attractive to me when I find other PhDs or graduate students who are consulting. One, because it’s a very broad in flexible kind of terms. So, a lot of people can be consultants in different ways, but also because it tends to command a nice high pay rate if you’re consulting in an area of expertise. I mean, you mentioned earlier that when you went into freelance writing, you were kind of moving away from anthropology. You were writing more about business. But you know, many other people who might be listening to this, they want to double down in their field of expertise. Right? And that’s how they can command those really high pay rates that you mentioned earlier.

08:07 Courtney: Absolutely.

Get Noticed as a Freelancer

08:07 Emily: Okay. So, let’s say you’ve convinced people, people are in your course, they’re going to go down this freelance route, whether it’s writing, consulting, some other field. What’s the best way for them to get started kind of hanging their shingle and letting people know I’m a freelancer now, you can hire me?

08:27 Courtney: Yeah. So, I think the first and most important thing is to build a website. Which, surprisingly to me, I know a lot of people in academia who were like, “Wow, you have your own website. That’s so cool. I wish I could do that.” And I’m like, “Well, you can. You can set up a website in one day. It’s not very difficult.” Yeah. So, building a website is the first and most important thing you can do to make yourself look like a professional freelancer. And that is another thing I discuss in my course. I take you through step by step, how to buy your domain hosting and set everything up, and what the important information you should put on your freelance website to make yourself look like a professional. So, that’s the first step.

09:02 Courtney: And then the next thing that you should do is use networking and cold pitching to get clients. Because there are a lot of freelance websites out there that you can get on where you can apply for jobs and stuff. And I’m not kicking that. I think that’s great also. And I do recommend that you do that, but you won’t get really high-paying clients from those kinds of gigs. You want to first start with networking. And even if you don’t have anybody, you can’t get any clients through your personal network. That’s fine. You can do it through cold pitching. And for me personally, over the years, the clients that I’ve had that have earned me hundreds of thousands of dollars are always the ones that I got through cold pitching. So, that’s what I recommend.

09:43 Emily: Yeah. You know, I actually went through a similar process. I don’t, I guess, identify as a freelancer, I identify as a business owner. But I went through a similar process when I started my business, which is how do I let people know that I’m available for speaking engagements and the other work that I was doing? And so I went through several years as I was building my network where I was cold emailing people. So, I know I don’t really love to be on the receiving end of most cold emails. And so I don’t love to send them either, but honestly, that was the necessary step in the overall process. So, I did a few years of a lot of cold emailing, built up my network, got some responses from that. And now I have basically stopped that. I kind of only do warm-emailing or cultivating my existing network at this point. So, I like that I’ve moved past that, but I feel like it was a really, really necessary start to the whole thing. My business would not have gotten off the ground if I hadn’t just been reaching out to people and trying to start establishing that network. So, it’s not necessarily pleasant, but it is necessary.

10:46 Courtney: It is necessary. And I always found it intimidating in the beginning, especially because you can send 50 emails and not get a response on a single one of them. That’s just the reality of cold pitching. But once you get that one gig and then it earns you a bunch of money, and then it’s like, “Oh, totally worth it.” And you feel motivated to do it more. And so, it can be intimidating. But that’s another thing that for the people who sign up for my course is that they have email support from me. And so, I will help them out with any questions they have. So, if they want to start cold emailing, but they’re not really sure where to start or what to say, they can ask me about that and I’ll give guidance based on the experience that I’ve had over the years.

How Freelancing Enhanced Courtney’s Life

11:28 Emily: That’s actually really nice. Because I know one of the sort of major challenges when you’re starting a business or starting a side income, like freelancing could be at first, is not really having colleagues who you can talk with about the work that you’re doing. And so, that’s just a really great sort of addition, in addition to the excellent content in your course, is also to be able to have interactions with you to get that support, again, as you’re building your network of your peers who are also freelancing or doing other kinds of work like that. So, I find that really valuable. I’ve been part of a couple of communities and I love just, you know, some people process things by talking to other people and they want some outside input, and you’re providing that. So, that’s super valuable. Now that we’ve gotten those excellent nuggets of advice from you, let’s talk a little bit about you and your story. I know you gave a quick overview at the start of the interview as to how you got into this, but why don’t you dive into a little bit more detail about what freelancing has done for you?

12:30 Courtney: Yeah, so, I flew through my bachelor’s degree and flew through my master’s holding my breath. I did that all really young and then I was starting my PhD. By the time I started my PhD, I was completely burnt out. It was just, I don’t need to explain how difficult academia is to anybody who’s listening to this podcast, but yeah, it was just too much for me and I needed a break. And the thing that I always loved about anthropology, the one thing that I love the most about it was being able to do field work. But field work was something that I was only ever able to do, if I was lucky, one or two months out of the year. And the rest of the year was spent in a windowless office doing research and data entry and stuff like that.

13:17 Courtney: And so, I wanted to just have the field work experience without the office experience. I just wanted to do something different. And so I was like, “Okay, I’m going to move to my field site. I love it there. I think it’s great. And I want to go live there. How can I do that? I don’t know.” And so, I actually ended up talking to my mom about it, who she actually works online. And she’s like, “Well, why don’t you start freelance writing? You don’t need to earn a lot of money in order to earn a living, especially if you’re in Africa. So, just give it a go.” And so, that’s what I did. I dropped out of my PhD program. I sold my car, used that to buy a plane ticket, and I left and I started freelancing here in Ethiopia and I’ve actually been here ever since.

13:59 Courtney: So, that has enhanced my life a lot because I get 12 months of sunshine, which is really important to me. And I love the environment and I love the culture and learning languages. And so that location-independence was really, really valuable to me for my mental health and just my personal happiness. And then the other thing that is always important is money. So, I earn very, very good money as a freelancer. I didn’t the first year and a half, as I mentioned before, but once I figured out that I was worth it, I started demanding it and asking for it. And I got it. And I continued to get it every time I raised my rates. People say, yes, somebody says yes. You know? And so, that’s really important, especially compared to academia, unfortunately. After the first two years of freelancing, I started earning more money than my former PhD advisor earns. And they’re a tenured professor. So, that’s something.

Location Independence and High Pay Rates

14:58 Emily: Yeah. I want to explore each of those points a little bit more because they’re both super attractive. The first one, the location-independence, you explained how that played out in your life. It enables you to move to the place that you want to live at one of your field sites and have sort of your whole life feel a little bit more like what you enjoyed the most about your academic experience. And of course, if someone else wants to do that and wants to make freelancing the way they make it happen, that’s awesome. I can think of some other benefits, which is, as you know, academic careers and PhD careers, you don’t have a lot of control over where you live, especially if you’re in academia. But even if you’re just a highly specialized professional, there are certain industries that are concentrated in certain cities, and so forth.

15:44 Emily: So, there may be reasons related to your PhD why you want to stay in a certain place, and this freelancing can follow you wherever you go. Side note, I as a, what’s called a trailing spouse–so we live where we live because my husband’s job is here and we anticipate moving because my husband may be changing jobs from time to time and he’s highly specialized–I get to take my business wherever I go. So, I don’t have to start over in a new job every time I might need to move. So, that’s a real, real benefit that I see that location-independence. And then of course on the money side, because this is a personal finance podcast. So, commanding the high pay rates, getting paid very well for your time.

16:26 Emily: Not just for people like you who are doing this full time, but as a side hustle. If that’s the way this starts, or that’s the way you want to keep this as you move forward in your freelancing career, as well as your academic or PhD-type career. It’s really nice when you can make a good amount of money for not that much time invested. As a PhD student, for example, you might be able to work, I don’t know, two hours a week, five hours a week, some pretty small number, but still get a really, really nice amount of money out of that small, small side hustle. And when you compare that, when you’re thinking about hourly rates to the other kinds of work that some PhDs do, or some people do when they’re still in graduate school or PhD training, it’s really nice, right?

17:10 Emily: To not have to work so many hours and also to have maybe a more like stimulating type of work, intellectually that is, yet something that is different probably from what you’re doing as your main day to day job, if this is still a side hustle. I think that’s really attractive in terms of having balance in your life. It’s awesome that you’ve been able to command these high pay rates and put together this full-time career, making a very nice income from Africa, from where you wanted to live. And I definitely want others to consider following your tracks.

17:44 Courtney: You were saying that this is like a full-time job for me, which it kind of is. But a lot of other people who listen to your podcast are people who are in academia to stay and they would like to have some additional stream of income to add on top of that. So, one point that I would like to make is that I actually do not work full-time. I work maybe 15 or 20 hours a week. But I actually still earn a full-time income because I get paid well. And this is something that I choose for my personal life because I have three foster kids and I homeschool them. And between that, and being a mom and, keeping my yard clean, I work 15, 20 hours a week on freelancing and that’s about it. And so you could do this as a part-time gig and still earn a lot of money. It doesn’t have to become like your full career. You don’t need to invest a hundred percent of your time in it. I don’t even invest a hundred percent of my time and I don’t even have another source of income. So, that’s something.

18:41 Emily: Yeah. Thank you so much for adding that. That’s awesome that you’re earning this like great, full-time income from part-time work. I actually also work part-time as well. I work about 25 hours a week and I’m quite happy with that balance actually. So, I really like that you added that point because the whole working 40 hours a week thing is so job-centric. That’s what our culture has decided–well, really not just 40, much more than 40 hours a week–is like the proper amount of time to be working. And once you start your own business, once you strike out on your own, all the rules are out the window, right? You can define what you want your work life to look like completely. And that goes both location and time and amount of money as we talked about earlier. So, I’m so glad that you added that. Thank you.

Endless Freelance Income: What to Expect

19:28 Emily: Let’s say someone is super excited about what we’ve been talking about. They want to start down their freelancing career in whatever field that might be in, and they want to sign up for your course, which again, they can do through pfforphds.com/freelance. And you can get the couple of bonuses that I created there. So, what can someone expect to find when they start your course?

19:49 Courtney: Okay. Well, first I guess I’ll explain who the course is for specifically. After I started freelancing, even in the first year or two I started freelancing, I got emails from people that I know. From people in my former cohort, professors that I know, people in grad school who heard, “Hey, I heard that you left academia and started freelancing. And I’d like to do something similar. Can you give me some advice?” And so, I’ve been giving advice to people for years. I get emails several, 10 or 15 times a year, I get an email from somebody, or I get a referral from somebody who’s in academia and they want to make the switch, or they want to add on to an additional stream of income through freelancing. And so, after years of basically kind of helping people just as like a side project, I decided to create a course to basically do what I was already doing, but do it in a more organized and formal way to help people.

Ch. 1: Intro to Freelance, Ch. 2: Identify Your Valuable Skills

20:47 Courtney: So, that’s what I created this course for. It’s called Endless Freelance Income, how to turn your liberal arts degree into an endless freelance income. However, even if your background is in science or any of the STEM areas, it can also be relevant to you. So, the course at the very beginning, it just introduces you to the online freelance world. So, if you don’t know the first thing about it, don’t worry. I will explain it to you in the course. That’s the first chapter. And then the next chapter, which I think is probably the most valuable one for people, is helping you identify what your most valuable and profitable skills are, from academia, that you can translate into freelance income. Through the mentoring there, I also kind of help people–people tend to overlook their skills. They think, “Oh, I guess I can write,” or like, “I guess I can do some data analysis, but I don’t have a degree in that. So, I’m not qualified to do that.” So, kind of just help people break that down. Imposter syndrome follows you outside of academia. I learned that the hard way. And so, just kind of help people to understand, no, these are valuable skills and you can utilize them.

22:08 Emily: What I liked about that portion of your course, what I noticed there is that you have worksheets in here, right? So, it’s not just like, I’m just reading all this material. It’s a very engaging format, right? So, you’re giving people some little tools they can use to do things like brainstorm about their own skillsets, which I totally agree with what you said. We tend to discount our own skills or our own areas of expertise unless we have a degree in it. That’s very important to us in academics that we have a degree in XYZ. But I know, personally, like my field is now personal finance and I don’t have a degree in personal finance and that’s okay. I’m still confident at this point that I am an expert in this area because of my long experience. But I think that for people who aren’t quite there yet, it is a little difficult of a hurdle to overcome. So, your course definitely helps with that.

22:55 Courtney: Yeah. And you know, same story for me, I’m an anthropologist, but I write in marketing topics, marketing and entrepreneurship. And I am an expert because I became one. And that’s it. And so, you can do it, too. That’s basically what the course helps you to figure out. So, once you’ve kind of broken down and pulled your skills out, then the next chapter teaches you about several different major freelance niches that you can get into. And I already mentioned before, there’s writing, editing translation, administrative support, design and creative, customer service, consulting, data science analysis, and sales and marketing are the ones that I go through. So, those are the main ones. And then it walks you through how you can look at your current skills and line them up with what each of these niches demand, or what they need.

How to Look Professional as a Freelancer

23:46 Courtney: And then it also helps you think about which one’s most interesting to you too. Because it’s not just about your skills, it’s also about what you want to do, right? And then you can choose your niche. And then after that, the course goes through how to make yourself look professional as a freelancer. One thing that I discovered when I left academia is that I needed to tone down my CV. What’s professional in academia and what’s professional in the online business world are very different. And so I kind of teach people how to make yourself look professional online as opposed to professional as a 10-page CV, or something like that. So, that’s the next step. And then the next thing after that is teaching you how to research your niche so that you can figure out what the going rates are in your niche, the going rates for somebody with your skill level, and just kind of also to weed through the riffraff.

24:47 Courtney: Because a lot of people out there, you know, they say $10 an hour or something like that. Yeah. You don’t need to pay attention to those people. So, to figure out how much you should be charging in the beginning. And then after that, the course takes you through step by step how to create your website, which I mentioned before. And then it walks you through what you need to do to land your first client. And that is the course in a nutshell, as it is right now. I plan to add onto it. Like I said before, I think cold pitching is important. So, one thing I plan to add on to it in the future is more information about walking people through how to set up a cold pitching scheme. And so, that’s something I plan to add onto it in the future. And the good news is that if you have access to the course, you buy it now, you’ll have access to all that future material as it comes up.

Bonus Content from Emily

25:34 Emily: That sounds awesome. As I said earlier, I read through the course prior to this interview, and it really breaks things down and simplifies them and doesn’t make it seem so intimidating to start down this path of freelancing. You really don’t over complexify anything. It’s very simple steps to follow, to get started. So, I wanted to mention for my audience, if you choose to buy Courtney’s course through my affiliate link again, pfforphds.com/freelance, I’ve created a couple of extra bonuses for you. So, one that everyone will receive who buys through my link is a free video training on how to budget with an irregular income, right? So, like I’m really confident, you go through Courtney’s course, you’re committed to this. Like you’re going to be starting down that path of having freelance income.

26:18 Emily: And you know, that’s a really great thing, but it can also pose some budgeting challenges. So, I’ve created a training that you’ll get for free when you buy the course on how to manage that. Like manage your finances when you have a side income stream that’s irregular, maybe growing into a full-sized income stream over time. So, it’ll help you with that. And then for the first five people who buy the course, so not everyone, but just the first five, I’m going to offer a free 20-minute financial coaching session. So, what I think will be really great about this is if you schedule this for maybe like two months out from when you start taking the course, it’ll be a nice little accountability point to meet with me at that time and say, “Okay, Emily, here’s the income stream. I’ve established it. I got my first invoice over here. I’ve gotten paid for the first time.” And so we can talk more about what you want to do with that money. How it’s going to help you reach your goals. How it’s going to fit into your budget. Do you want to be paying debt? Do you want to be investing it? So, we can talk about all that kind of stuff. So, that’s how I recommend you use that bonus if you’re one of the first five to sign up is schedule it a little ways out. So you actually have that income stream established by the time we meet together. And I’ll certainly be asking you, have you been implementing everything from the course? So again, pfforphds.com/freelance is where you can sign up and of course link through to find out more about the course from Courtney.

Best Financial Advice for Early-Career Academics

27:38 Emily: So, Courtney, we’ve come to the end of the interview. Thank you so much for what you’ve shared with the audience today. I think it’s been excellent advice and thank you for telling us more about Endless Freelance Income. So, final question that I ask all my guests is what is your best financial advice for another early career academic or maybe recovering academic like you?

28:00 Courtney: My best advice would be don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Something my dad told me when I was 17 years old and I didn’t know what it meant at the time, but now I do. So, even if you’ve got your dream job, even if you’ve gotten that research position or that tenure track job or whatever, you never know what’s going to happen in the future. That’s something we’ve learned this year in 2020, I think. And so, having an additional stream of income is really valuable. And I know that’s what Emily talks about all the time on her blog. And the thing about freelancing is that there’s no risk in starting and giving it a try. And you can just work on it in your spare time and you can build it up over time in whatever time you have. And if you don’t have time to work on it, you don’t have time to work on it. And it doesn’t hurt you to work on this and build up this extra stream of income. You don’t have to be like me where you leave your job and leave your country and change your whole career. I think that all academics should be doing something on the side, some kind of freelancing, blogging, something. So, that’s my advice.

29:06 Emily: Yeah. I totally agree. You know, not all the eggs in one basket can apply it to a lot of different areas, but certainly when it comes to your income, having a job or even being in graduate school means you’re dependent on another institution to decide to continue to give you work. But the advantage of freelancing is that you spread that around to a lot of different clients and it’s much less risk. Yeah, one client drops off, no big deal. You can supplement that by hustling up a few new clients. But if your employer decides they don’t want to work with you anymore, that’s kind of a devastating like life thing. So, excellent, excellent advice. What I also like about what you said is that if you do the work, for instance, by going through your course. If you do the work to establish yourself as a freelancer, and you devote even something like an hour a week to it, like I mentioned earlier. As long as that income stream is established and in a field like freelancing, it’s something that you can decide to turn up or turn down as you need in your own life.

30:00 Emily: So, for example, if you have an unfunded summer, you know, some people–again, you mentioned 2020–some people in 2020 have late in the game discovered that they don’t have summer funding in the way that they thought they would. Yes. Their funding will pick up again in the fall. It’s not like they’re going to drop out of graduate school and get a full-time job or whatever. But for a few months, the income that they thought was secure is not there. So, once the situation is upon you, it’s very difficult to scramble and kind of fix it. But if you’ve already established that one hour per week freelancing job, then that’s something you can ramp up or ramp down as your life allows, as your money situation requires. So, I just think that’s a real advantage to establishing yourself. Even if you’re not going to do it, like you just said, 15 hours a week to make the equivalent of a full-time income. So, great, great advice. Courtney, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It was a real pleasure to talk with you again.

30:54 Courtney: Thanks so much, Emily. Thank you.

Outtro

30:55 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

This Fulbright Fellow Supplements Her Stipend with Prior Savings

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Caitlin Kirby, a graduate student at Michigan State University and former Fulbright fellow in Germany. Caitlin has been greatly financially challenged on the Fulbright, namely by: 1) the large amount of money needed to move and settle into her new city and university, 2) the high cost of housing relative to the stipend, and 3) the additional expense of bringing her husband with her. Caitlin and the majority of her peers are supplementing their Fulbright income with prior savings. Fortunately, Caitlin and her husband grew their net worth in advance of starting the fellowship through house hacking and savings goals.

Links Mentioned

Fulbright fellowship stipend

Teaser

00:00 Caitlin: We’re paying about €1,025 a month for a furnished apartment with all bills included, which is the norm in Germany, and that’s 85% of my base stipend.

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 16, and today my guest is Dr. Caitlin Kirby, a graduate student at Michigan State University, and former Fulbright fellow in Germany. Caitlin details the financial challenges she experienced on the Fulbright, namely the large amount of money needed to move and settle into her new city and the university, the high cost of housing relative to the stipend and the additional expense of bringing her husband with her. Caitlin and the majority of her peers supplemented their Fulbright income with prior savings. Fortunately, Caitlin and her husband built up savings in advance of starting the fellowship through house hacking and savings goals. This episode is valuable, not just for future Fulbright fellows, but also anyone facing a career transition or move. By the way, we recorded this interview in February, 2020, and I’ve included an August, 2020 update from Caitlin after the interview. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Caitlin Kirby.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:25 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today, Caitlin Kirby, and we’re discussing something that I haven’t had the opportunity to before, which is actually the Fulbright fellowship, super exciting, that is as a PhD student. And Caitlin will also be telling us in the second half of the episode about how to prepare for financial challenges that you don’t even know you’re preparing for, like the Fulbright. So Caitlin, I’m really excited to have you on the podcast. Dave, thank you so much. And will you please introduce yourself a little bit to the audience?

01:53 Caitlin: Yeah. Thanks. I’m glad to be joining you. I am a PhD candidate at Michigan State University in Environmental Science and Policy. My dissertation looks at environmental decision making in cross cultural spaces, and I also engage in science education research in university classrooms.

02:13 Emily: Yeah. How did you decide that you wanted to do the Fulbright? I guess maybe my own bias coming into this is that I really think of it as something people do after undergrad while not yet enrolled in a graduate program, but you know much more about this. So how did this come on your radar and why’d you decide to apply for it?

02:31 Caitlin: Yeah, so the program you’re thinking of is probably primarily the English teaching assistant program, which is primarily students who have graduated undergrad and not moved on to a graduate degree program. And then a smaller subset of the Fulbright is study and research grants for graduate students. I have always enjoyed international travel. Like I said, my dissertation is looking in cross cultural spaces. I did some research in South and so it was always something that was kind of on my radar. And actually I was thinking about doing it for a post doc. And in my last couple of years of grad school started looking at the application requirements and figured out that it was going to be simpler to apply as a graduate student, so I did, and here I am.

03:18 Emily: And is this, I know it’s playing into your dissertation, but is this kind of you taking like an extra year or is this really not extending your time to degree at all and it’s just going to go right in with your overall plan?

03:31 Caitlin: Yeah. So a little bit of both. I actually defended my dissertation in October, so it’s kind of an extension of my dissertation and degree time. Although I probably would have graduated in May anyways and now it’s August instead.

Financial Support Provided by Fulbright

03:47 Emily: Gotcha. Well, congratulations on already defending. We’re recording this in February, 2020, so for the listeners reference. Okay, so what financial support does the Fulbright give to you?

04:01 Caitlin: Yeah, so it is different for every country. I am speaking about Germany Fulbright grant. Although I also looked at a lot of the Western European ones. They get a lot of applications as well, have a lot of grants and are fairly similar in that they are relatively expensive places to live. Hopefully this is generalizable across a lot of those spaces. My understanding from folks that I’ve heard from who are in spaces that have lower cost of living is that the stipend is a little bit more generous in those spaces.

04:34 Caitlin: What Fulbright does provide in Germany, if you are a graduate student or an English TA, you get €850 a month. If you’re a PhD candidate, so you’ve passed your comprehensive exams, then it goes up to €1,200 a month. So if you are a PhD student and you can wait until after comps, I think it’s worth it.

04:58 Emily: Yeah, that’s a big raise, surprisingly.

05:01 Caitlin: Yeah and €850 is actually the lowest, I’ve seen for countries in this area. Other countries in Western Europe range from about €1,300 to €1,500 a month. These stipends are not posted on the actual application website. You have to go to the Fulbright website for each individual country to find those, and sometimes they’re not available and sometimes they don’t include all the details.

Financial Challenges of the Fulbright

05:26 Emily: Yeah. So I understand that you have encountered some financial challenges based on that stipend and also maybe a lack of clarity up front about exactly what was going into this whole package. So can you explain a little bit more about what you’ve found?

05:41 Caitlin: Yeah. There are some challenges that are specific to my situation and then some challenges that some other Fulbrighters have also experienced. I would say sort of summarizing those across from what I’ve seen from others and for myself is that the three really primary challenges are that you need a lot of savings at the beginning to cover your first couple of months and some initial expenses. Then number two would be that housing is really kind of the make or break factor in how far your stipend goes. And so if you can look ahead of time when you’re deciding what institution to work with at the cost of living in a city, maybe try and find one that’s not so high. And then the third thing would be, think about any extenuating circumstances that might make it more costly for you as an individual.

06:33 Emily: This actually sounds like really good advice for anyone approaching any financial or location transition whatsoever, so people going into graduate school, going to a post doc, going to your first job, so I really want you to expand more on each one of those points.

#1: Expected and Unexpected Upfront Expenses

06:48 Caitlin: For the initial costs,, or the one-time costs when I arrived here in Germany, first of all, like everything else in academia, the Fulbright stipend model is built on reimbursement. So you buy everything ahead of time, and then after you get your bank account in your country, they will reimburse you, which for Germany can also take a long time. It’s a very bureaucratic country. A lot of the Fulbrighters in Germany were paid late, like two or three months after their grant had started, and it was really inconsistent across different fellowship recipients. Or sometimes they were paid in consistently. So having that initial savings is really important to be able to get you through.

07:34 Emily: What kinds of upfront costs were you experiencing?

07:39 Caitlin: Yeah, so moving costs in general, right? You have to get your travel, which Fulbright covers some of, and sometimes again, depends on the country. My flight was covered and then they provided an additional, like €150 for other expenses, but I decided to fly out of Chicago, which was far away, so I needed hotel and transit and it didn’t really cover all that. Then once we arrived as well, there was a lot of traveling around the city that we had to do to get everything settled. I’m saying we, because I came here with my husband, and that transit was eventually covered by my university pass, which I also had to pay about 300 euros to enroll at a university. And some folks will have to pay tuition as well.

08:29 Emily: Wow. That is a lot, and it sounds like it’s quite variable too. Going into this situation, it sounds like actually you’re in contact with other people doing the Fulbright. And so is there like a network already of people that you can tap to find out, okay, what are all these expenses, or does the program make it really, really clear once you have a host university?

08:51 Caitlin: It was more hearing from other people that I got this information. I don’t remember how I was contacted about this initially actually, but there was a Fulbright Facebook specifically for folks in my year. And some alum had joined that as well. I believe the Fulbright did actually connect me with these social networks. So they are very good about getting you in contact with alumni and folks that you can engage with, and then beyond that, it’s kind of up to the folks in each cohort to decide what to share and how often and all of that.

09:26 Emily: This actually sounds very familiar to what I understand is the experience of many international students coming to the US — the place where they get the most information from, is the network of students from their country already at that university or who are coming in at the same time, which can be truly an amazing resource in many ways. However, if that group doesn’t already have the correct information or the best information, then it can kind of be passed along and not like optimized. It’s probably 80% awesome and then 20% maybe someone else could give you better information, but like that is really the best go to resource.

10:05 Caitlin: Yeah.

10:06 Emily: Not being paid, that is reimbursed for two to three months sounds really long. Were there any other kind of upfront reasons why you needed to tap savings or expenses that you wish you’d known about in advance?

10:22 Caitlin: Yeah. This one is perhaps unique to Germany in that when you get an apartment in Germany, when they say unfurnished, they mean like unfurnished. There are no light fixtures, there are no cupboards, there’s no kitchen sink. So your choices are to come and basically furnish a whole apartment, which I know another married grantee did this year, or you can pay a premium to get a furnished apartment, which are much less available and so much more expensive than —

10:58 Emily: Wow, so it’s typical to bring in your own appliances and like all of that? Do people move that stuff when they move from place to place?

11:06 Caitlin: There’s a reason that Ikea is a big deal here because you can just kind of pack it up and take it with you or you can sell it to the person who’s renting your apartment next, which so then if you’re renting an apartment and they’re offering the kitchen, then you can pay like 1200 euro to, I’ve seen up to like €4,000 to keep the kitchen in the apartment

11:28 Emily: Wow, that is a lot of upfront costs. Anything else to add to that list?

11:34 Caitlin: Some bureaucratic stuff in general. I think most Fulbrighters would be aware of this, but maybe not necessarily how much of it or how much it might add up. So passport photos, the passport itself, some places have expensive visa applications and then myself coming in as a married grantee, there’s extra documentation that we needed around our marriage certificate, getting that translated, paying for my husband’s visa, that kind of thing.

12:02 Emily: It’s a lot of costs. It’s a lot of costs you’re listing. Are you being completely supported by the Fulbright in this year or is Michigan State supplementing at all?

12:11 Caitlin: You’re not allowed to really have significant other income. It’s up to 450, I don’t remember dollars or euro a month is allowed as a Fulbright grantee. And that again, may be specific to Germany that amount, but still the fact that you’re not supposed to have significant outside sources of income holds true. I did receive an award in the semester that I was awarded the Fulbright, from Michigan state. I got some money from them as an award for receiving this fellowship that I then tucked away and said, okay, that’s going to supplement when I am on my Fulbright.

12:52 Emily: Yeah. That’s a great thing to have upfront going into this process.

12:56 Emily: Okay, so we’ve talked about upfront expenses. Sounds like you need massive amount of savings to undertake this. What was the second point that you were going to make?

#2: Cost of Living and Housing in Your New City

13:06 Caitlin: Yeah, housing is definitely the biggest factor in how far your stipend is going to go. That’s again where you might want to consider, because as a Fulbright grantee, you decide which institute you’re going to work with or which university you’re going to attend, and if you somehow have a choice between some different costs of living areas, you might want to choose one that’s a little bit easier on the wallet. Then the other thing that sort of made housing more difficult for myself as an older grantee, and a married grantee is that there’s not really shared housing options available as a married couple. We had to get our own apartment, and that makes it a lot more expensive. It’s a lot more reasonable if you’re able to share space, but a lot of graduate students might not be able to, or might not want to for a variety of reasons.

13:57 Emily: So when you’re talking about sharing space and that not being available to you as a married couple, are you still talking about having like individual bedrooms or is it like a dorm situation or what would other people do if they were single?

14:11 Caitlin: Yeah, so they’re called veh has in German, or WG is the abbreviation for it. And it’s basically everybody has their individual bedroom in an apartment that’s shared with people.

14:24 Emily: Okay. And you can’t share a bedroom then as a couple?

14:28 Caitlin: It’s just extremely rare, so rare that on the websites where you can like search for these housing options, there’s no option to have a couple, or like a male/female mix going into these rooms. So it’s a little bit of a cultural thing.

14:47 Emily: Yeah. Interesting. I mean this point is also super super applicable to anyone moving anywhere. Rent, or your housing expenses more generally, is most likely going to be the largest expense in your budget. It’s very difficult to change once you — I mean, you can change it maybe after a year or something, but once you sign that lease, you’re locked in for a little while. It’s so important to put really the bulk of probably the research that you’re doing into that housing choice. And it does sound like yours was further constrained by bringing your spouse along with you. Anything else you wanted to add about the housing cost?

15:22 Caitlin: I think that about covers it, but just to give an idea, we’re paying about €1,025 a month for a furnished apartment with all bills included, which is the norm in Germany, and that’s 85% of my base stipend. I do also get, I think I didn’t mention that I get some dependent support for my husband being with me. It’s about €270 a month, so not a huge amount. That really has been, that was the biggest shock to me, I think, because I could see on apartment websites, things that were cheaper, but they weren’t able to fit to our needs.

16:05 Emily: Yeah. And do you have any other source of income right now? You’ve mentioned the Fulbright grant, the additional support for having a spouse and then the upfront award that Michigan State gave you to help a little bit with that. Does your husband have any income right now?

16:19 Caitlin: No. He’s not allowed to have income either, both because of visa issues, and then if he did earn significant income, then we would just say, okay, we don’t need the dependent support from Fulbright. But with visa issues and also language issues, it would be very difficult for him to work. So it’s savings and Fulbright.

16:43 Emily: Yeah. Wow. Okay, well, we’ll get into how you’re making that work in a moment. And what was that third point that you wanted to say about everyone’s unique situation?

#3: Individual Personal Finance Situations

16:53 Caitlin: Yeah, so there’s a lot of difficulties that I’ve had with the Fulbright, but I don’t think overall it’s necessarily an unfair stipend. I think that you need to weigh it against your individual needs. So again, myself bringing my husband, that’s two people living on one income, obviously it’s going to be more difficult. If you have student loans that you’re still paying, some of them are eligible for deferment, depends on who your loan provider is, in some cases. If you have pets that you either want to try and bring with you or need to get taken care of. If you have a lease at home that you need to break or keep paying on or storage for your items, regular bills at home. So our car right now is on storage insurance, which is luckily not very much, but still something to consider. Prescription drugs — there is some level of health coverage provided by Fulbright, but they do not pay for regular expenses like that. And accessibility needs too. Our apartment would not be accessible to someone with a wheelchair. And even though there’s great public transportation, you might need to be closer to the city center than we are. Just all kinds of things that maybe are easily or more integrated into your life before you leave that become very obvious as challenges when you’re on your way.

18:20 Emily: A lot to think about there. Actually going back to your second point, I think I was getting the impression that the Fulbright grant is the same across every country. Is that right? The income, that is, that you would get as the same across the country, or is it actually different depending on which university you land in?

18:40 Caitlin: So for Germany, it is the same across the country. Some other countries vary it depending on what the cost of living is in the city that you’re in.

18:50 Emily: Okay. So in some cases you might have a cost of living adjustment built into your income, and in some cases you might not, and that’s why you were saying, okay, let’s be really careful about, which institute you choose to go to in that case.

19:01 Caitlin: Yes. And Germany did actually announce a few months into the grant that they have extra money for a housing stipend. So folks who are in those higher costs of living situations will be able to receive up to €250 a month. And there is some kind of, I think as an American, maybe kind of ridiculous size requirements and that single people get 200 something square feet for that stipend and as a married couple, you can get a 320 square foot apartment, which is tiny. That’s like a studio with like a hot plate and a toaster oven, right? For us, cooking is really important, so we opted to get a prorated stipend and have somewhere with a full kitchen.

19:47 Emily: Gotcha.

Commercial

19:51 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. I bet you and your peers are hungry for financial information right now, especially if it’s tailored for your unique PhD experience. I offer seminars, webinars, and workshops on personal finance for early career PhDs that can be billed as professional development or personal wellness programming. My events cover a wide range of personal finance topics, or take a deep dive into the financial topics that matter most to PhDs, like taxes, investing, career transitions, and frugality. If you’re interested in having me speak to your group, or recommending me to a potential host, you can find more information and ways to contact me at PFforPhDs.com/speaking. We can absolutely find a way to get this great content to you and your peers even while social distancing. Now back to our interview.

Making it Work Despite the Financial Challenges

20:50 Emily: So, I’m freaking out a little bit for you when you mentioned the percentage of your income that your rent takes up. How are you making this work? What have you been doing in the years leading up to going on the Fulbright that makes you not freak out right now about money?

21:09 Caitlin: Yeah. So one piece that I do want to say, is that I’m not necessarily unique in that I am having to use a lot of other savings. On the Facebook group, I mentioned that to the other Fulbrighters in Germany, I just did an informal poll and 62 out of 91 responded, so that’s about 70%, said that they would not be able to financially survive without significant additional savings, gifts or income. So —

21:37 Emily: Is that something that the program makes clear earlier in the application cycle or is this something that comes as a surprise once people are really starting to look into the financials?

21:49 Caitlin: I think it’s more of a surprise. They are pretty upfront about what support is provided, like you can go look at the numbers. I was surprised that that many people were struggling with it because I was thinking like, yeah, this makes sense, I’m supporting two people on this income and my savings, so of course it’s going to feel like a, a stressful year. But I was surprised that that many people expressed that they, they had to use significant outside sources. There were like 15% of people who said that they had money left over for savings, so again it’s working for some people.

22:27 Caitlin: Yeah, but not the majority. All right. Yeah, go ahead. How are you making this work?

22:33 Caitlin: Yeah, so I think like with anything else in academia or life, it’s a combination of luck and privilege and decision making. My husband and I were in a low cost of living area, Michigan State University is in East Lansing right next to Lansing, Michigan’s state capital. We were living in Lansing where houses are fairly cheap and we were able to buy a house when I started graduate school, because I had funds, enough for a down payment, from a relative who had passed away. We intentionally bought this house within biking distance from the university, so we sold one of our cars once we arrived, and we ended up having roommates for almost the entire time that we lived there.

23:23 Emily: How large is your house? How many bedrooms?

23:26 Caitlin: It was a three bedroom.

23:28 Emily: Okay. And so you had one or two tenants that entire time?

23:34 Caitlin: Yes. Usually one, sometimes two.

23:38 Emily: I love this strategy. It’s come to be known as house hacking. It’s actually something I’m excited about covering even more on the podcast. Either — well, whenever this is released — maybe in the recent past, or maybe in the soon to be future. But I love the strategy for graduate students. Of course, it’s only possible in relatively low or moderate cost of living cities, where the housing market is something that a graduate student can kind of grasp. It definitely helps to have two incomes, like presumably you and your husband have, and also to have acquired down payment money from somewhere. Those are things that are very, very helpful, although not strictly necessary, but go into the likelihood of house hacking being possible. Overall, has that single tenant paid your entire mortgage, half of your mortgage? How much of a financial boost has that situation given you?

24:31 Caitlin: We were doing it both for personal and financial reasons. Every single person who lived in our house was someone we knew, either friends or family members. So we charged the actual cost to them, of living there, which maybe doesn’t quite work out in our favor because we were also then paying for maintenance costs and that kind of thing, but it was what we decided to do. All of the income that we got from renters, we put into savings or paying off my husband’s student loans, which we had to do at the beginning of graduate school, or IRAs, retirement accounts.

25:17 Emily: What was your husband’s income like during this time? Did his income far exceed yours, or was it similar to what you were making?

25:25 Caitlin: His income was similar to what I was making, similar to a graduate stipend?

25:29 Emily: Yeah. Okay. Not a huge boost there, but good for two people living in a lower cost of living city. Great, so you were beefing up your savings. Anything else that you were doing during that time to help you prepare for this challenging year?

25:43 Caitlin: Well, so I knew relatively ahead of time that the Fulbright was a possibility and if I didn’t get the Fulbright, we were going to take a trip to travel around Europe anyway, so we had this designated savings account for a Europe trip or Fulbright supplement and we were able to put $5,000 in that. I was also keeping pretty good track of how much money we were spending, so I knew in general how much we would need to supplement the Fulbright and was able to funnel that away in the months leading up to it.

26:18 Emily: How long did you take to directly prepare for the Fulbright and, or generally going to Europe?

26:26 Caitlin: Hmm, that’s a good question. It has been a goal in my financial tracking account for over two years.

26:37 Emily: Okay. Yeah. That’s a great time horizon. I usually encourage people to think out at least a ahead, like what major expenses may be coming their way, but two years is even better, if you can do it. That’s a great kind of baseline to have to prepare. I forgot to ask, what are you doing with your house right now? Is it fully rented out?

26:55 Caitlin: We sold our house before we left. We didn’t want —

26:58 Emily: Oh wow.

26:58 Caitlin: Yeah. And because I’m graduating at the end of the Fulbright, I’ve been applying for jobs. We don’t know where we’ll land, so it just made sense.

27:05 Emily: Okay, so you’re not planning on returning to Lansing, and you’ve closed everything out there that you need to before leaving.

27:13 Caitlin: Yeah.

27:13 Emily: That’s great. So presumably you also had some capital gains from that sale?

27:18 Caitlin: We did, yeah.

27:19 Emily: That’s awesome. Anything else that you’re doing to make your financials work this year?

27:25 Caitlin: Just keeping track, basically, which is a little bit harder in Germany. It’s very much a cash economy and I like to keep track of my purchases with card, but instead I’m out paying cash and euro and then coming home and converting that and remembering what went to what. Keeping track so that we can then also have some money set aside for travel, since that’s part of the mission of the Fulbright, as well as this cultural exchange.

27:56 Emily: That sounds awesome. Anything else you want to say to another potential Fulbright applicant, regarding the finances of, of doing the fellowship?

28:05 Caitlin: I would say don’t be dissuaded based, based on what I’ve said. I think it tends to be most overwhelming at the beginning and then things kind of level out. You either figure out where to make sacrifices, or there are options for you to earn up to an extra 400 euro a month, which is pretty accessible. I would say that it’s still definitely worth it, if in your situation it’s not going to be too burdensome.

28:36 Emily: I think it’s kind of like with any other life transitions, as I was saying earlier. Having cash in your bank account and your savings account is going to help you so much through that transition, and it’s not necessarily like vital, but it is going to make it a lot smoother. And it’s something that you can then repay out of your ongoing income. Like you said, with the reimbursements coming slowly, that can go right back into refilling the savings for the next transition that will be happening at the end of the year, or whatever. So the earlier you can build up savings kind of for whatever comes your way, as you did, the better okay.

Final Words of Advice

29:10 Emily: Caitlin, I end all my interviews by asking my guest, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD?

29:17 Caitlin: I would say find a way to enjoy or kind of make a game out of financial management, with the caveat that I understand that some PhDs are not in a position where they can really even sustain themselves. You’re allowed to feel stressed out about it if that’s the situation you’re in, but find what works for you and what interests you about your finances, so that you can keep track in a way that makes sense for you. For example, I do not like to budget out where every single bit of my money is going. Instead I set aside, this is for retirement, this is for long-term savings, this is for this specific short term savings goal, and then everything else can get spent because everything’s taken care of. But if you don’t want to even want to look at a spreadsheet, then make a visualization or make it into a presentation, make it interesting for yourself.

30:18 Emily: I love that tip. I don’t know if this is a widely used term, but I call it the “unbudgeting” method. So for those people who don’t want to be down in the weeds with this category versus this category, as long as you have that high level savings or debt repayment or whatever you’re doing, as long as that’s taken care of and ideally through like automated transactions, so you don’t even have to think about it. As long as you’re paying attention to that balance in your checking account, just spend what’s there because you know you have your big goals already taken care of. And it actually — seems like it doesn’t sound like this is your preference — but in a cash economy, budgeting without putting a ton of spreadsheet effort into it can be possible because you just say, here’s my cash for eating out, here’s my cash for groceries, and just spend that down, and don’t worry about having to keep track specifically because you did it ahead of time.

31:09 Emily: Well, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today, Caitlin. As I said, I’m really excited to discuss the Fulbright. It’s a first for me.

31:16 Caitlin: Yeah. Great, and I’m excited to discuss personal finance.

31:20 Emily: Thank you.

August 2020 Update

31:22 Caitlin: Hi, Caitlin Kirby here with an update on what happened with coronavirus and Fulbright. In March, Fulbright programs around the world started sending people home as coronavirus was coming into those countries. For me in Germany, that meant a couple of weeks of sort of confusing communication from Fulbright, followed by eventually them suggesting that everybody go home, followed shortly by all Fulbright programs, worldwide, being suspended. Again, things were different on a country to country level. For Germany, we were given funding for changes in travel plans to head home. As per regular in the Fulbright program, that was only for the grantee and not for any dependents. And then we were also given our stipend through June 30th, which for me meant that I was receiving a month and a half less of payment. For most people that’s when the program was ending anyway.

32:31 Caitlin: And then Fulbright Germany was also able to provide folks with, I think it was a thousand euros just as additional transition funds. This information kind of all came piecemeal, so it was a little bit stressful in the moment. But I did end up then going back to the United States in March. I was fortunate enough to be able to, at least from the research standpoint, work remotely with my research team back in Germany, so I still got to complete a lot of my goals for the Fulbright, as far as research goes, but obviously missed out on the rest of that experience of being in the country, in Germany. I was also fortunate to then be able to start my postdoctoral research position at the University of Nebraska, Lincoln a little bit early, so I didn’t have gaps in funding, which obviously was really helpful.

33:24 Caitlin: Fulbright, in this coming year, again is a little bit country to country. I know some programs have been canceled because of coronavirus. Some programs are starting late, in January, and that is really all that I’ve heard. If you are just considering applying to Fulbright now, I think chances are better that things will be a little bit more normal by the time you start or at least Fulbright will have better contingency plans for what happens if outbreaks do occur so that you’re not sort of waiting week by week, or really day by day to figure out what’s happening at the commission level or with the Fulbright program, overall.

34:08 Caitlin: One other note, if you are applying this year, there is potential for you to have increased competition because Fulbright did offer for folks whose grants were interrupted to be able to reapply in the coming cycle. They don’t have any priority over folks who are applying for the first time or second time, but that is a possibility for folks who are in situations where they’re able to come home and then apply for Fulbright again, which is not for a lot of people I know who were doing the Fulbright, but it’s, again, a possibility.

34:46 Caitlin: If you want a little bit more information about some of the impacts of the changes in the Fulbright program in different countries, there is a group on Twitter called Fulbright Crisis and they have been cataloging some of the difficulties that people coming back from different countries have had, or people coming back in general. Like for example, the health insurance that Fulbright provided was only in the country that your Fulbright was in so when folks were sent back home, some of them did not have health insurance. And some folks were not provided stipends throughout the program. Like once the programs ended in March, some countries were not providing stipends for their grantees. Again, the Twitter handle for that is @FulbrightCrisis and they’re showcasing some of those difficulties if you want a little bit more information about what that has looked like and maybe what that will look like in the future

Outtro

35:49 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. PFforPhDs.com/podcast is the hub for the personal finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode. Register at PFforPhDs.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode, and remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is stages of awakening by Poddington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Lourdes Bobbio.

How This Entering PhD Student Has Set Himself Up for Financial Success in Graduate School

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In this episode, Emily interviews George Walters-Marrah, a rising first-year PhD student in biophysics at Stanford. In the last year, as George has been applying to and preparing to attend graduate school, he’s been on a financial journey as well. We walk chronologically through the financial steps he’s taken this year, from applying for fellowships last fall to taking a personal finance course this past spring to drafting a budget this summer for how he plans to use his stipend in Palo Alto. Additionally, Emily and George have an insightful conversation on what George learned about investing in his personal finance course and how he’s already implementing some of the strategies.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

grad school financial success

Teaser

00:00 George: I’ve been investing for a while now. And it’s like, it’s not really time-consuming at all. I kind of like check it at least once a day just because I like looking at it. But other than that, it’s not like I’m constantly fidgeting with my stuff. And I think the more you fidget with it, the more fees you get. So, it’s like, it’s kind of like passive investing. It’s kind of like a win-win.

Introduction

00:21 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 15, and today my guest is George Walters-Marrah, a rising first-year PhD student in biophysics at Stanford. In the last year, as George has been applying to and preparing to attend graduate school, he’s been on a financial journey as well. We walk chronologically through the financial steps he’s taken this year, from applying for fellowships last fall to taking a personal finance course this past spring to drafting a budget this summer for how he plans to use his stipend in Palo Alto. Additionally, we have an insightful conversation on what George learned about investing in his personal finance course and how he’s already implementing some of the strategies. This is a perfect episode to listen to if you are near the start of your financial journey, whether that’s at the beginning of graduate school or further on in your career. Without further ado, here’s my interview with George Walters-Marrah.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:26 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today George Walters-Marrah. He is a rising PhD student. We are recording this interview in July, 2020, and within the next month or two, he’s going to be starting his PhD program at Stanford. And he’s already been on a financial journey. So, we’re going to talk through about the last year, how he’s been preparing financial aid to go into his PhD program, as well as he’s done an awesome amount of career preparation to get to that stage as well. So, George, it’s a real pleasure to have you on the podcast. Would you please introduce yourself to the listeners?

01:58 George: Thank you for having me. So, I just graduated with my bachelor’s in molecular microbiology, and I have a research interest in interdisciplinary sciences. But I’ve also been kind of really obsessed with personal finance over the last year. So, I’m glad to be able to talk about it. Because whenever I get the chance, I kind of get excited because I’ve been so involved and kind of like consumed with it for a while. So, thanks for having me.

Financial Preparation Before Grad School

02:28 Emily: Well, it’s really exciting for me as well. And the way we actually met was over Twitter, and you prepared this fabulous document of personal finance resources and included a lot of mine in there, which I’m really grateful for and you shared it. And I happened to see it and was just so flattered that you did that, and it was a fantastic document. So, I’m really excited that you have been sharing this material with your peers. We’ll get into that, why you’re doing that during the course of the interview. So, let’s take it back to almost a year ago. How were you starting to prepare financially for graduate school even, you know, well, well, before you finished your undergrad degree?

03:05 George: Yeah. So, about a year ago I was like kind of oblivious to personal finance. But what I did know was that there were things called fellowships and scholarships and stuff that I could apply to. So, like about a year ago during the summer, I was looking into scholarships and fellowships and I applied, I was starting to apply to the NSF GRFP, the Ford Fellowship, and other things like that. So, I started that pretty early and I would suggest to start that over the summer, if you can. If not, start it at the beginning of the fall, because I was able to get a couple of fellowships and I think a really big reason I was able to do that was because I started so early, kind of like reaching out to my letter writers and starting my personal statement and kind of like collecting the different, like papers that I would need to write my research proposal.

Balancing Coursework with Grad School Applications

03:54 Emily: Yeah. We’ll link in the show notes because I’ve done a couple other interviews with fellowship winners and that was a common thread of advice: start early. So, even right now, you know, July for the people who are going to be applying in the upcoming, you know, starting about six months from now, they need to really be working on this, you know, the preparation process getting started now. How did you–so I applied for graduate school and all of these fellowships after I finished my undergrad, I had a post-bac year–how did you manage sort of balancing your coursework, your thesis work, I assume, with doing these, you know, intensive applications?

04:30 George: So, full disclosure, I was a fifth year student, so I graduated in five years. So, I had most of my class requirements done. So, I had the luxury of kind of decreasing the amount of classes I had. So, I still had 12 credit hours, but I was able to kind of like pick and choose classes that weren’t like super intensive. So, I kind of did that. And I also had the luxury of having a class that could be like a placeholder and I could use that time to do my personal statement and prepare to apply to graduate school and fellowships. But I would say that, try to decrease the amount of classes that are super intensive. Try to kind of pick classes that, you don’t have a lot of, like, time-consuming, like it doesn’t consume a lot of the your time, and kind of learn how to say no to things.

05:25 George: If you can kind of just say no to a few things so you can use that time to kind of work towards your fellowship applications, work towards your grad school applications. I think that would kind of like, it builds up, like when you keep saying yes. So, if you kind of learn how to say no to things that may not be helpful to you in the future, or may not be worth the time, I think that would kind of really be helpful with allowing you to find that time to kind of complete all that you need to do that last semester.

Which Fellowships Did You Win?

05:54 Emily: Yeah. I think it’s a great idea that you actually had space in your core schedule for doing these applications, because that’s really how you need to treat it. You need to treat it as at least one class, if not multiple classes. That’s the amount of time it’ll take. So, you were successful in winning some of these fellowships. Which ones did you win?

06:12 George: So, I was able to get like three fellowships. It was kind of like three different types of fellowships. So, I had got an external fellowship and two internal fellowships. So, I got the NSF GRFP, which was external, it kind of followed me wherever I went. And then I got an internal Stanford fellowship, which is, they kind of reviewed my application and you kind of get considered for this just by applying. And they gave me that fellowship based on my application. And then my last fellowship is one I got actually pretty recently. And it was a fellowship that I got by applying to a program, a first year program, after I got accepted and after I decided to come. So, it was kind of like the first one, I applied to it way before I applied to grad school, and then I got the external one. The second one, like they considered me just by applying, and I got that one. And the third one, I applied to it after I actually got into the program. And it was like a separate first-year program at Stanford. So, like, there are kind of several different ways that you can try and get these fellowships, which I think is like really nice.

07:16 Emily: Yeah. So, the fellowship applications did not stop, you know, just after the fall of your application season. That’s awesome that you won so many different ones. I have a post that I’ll link to in the show notes where I list a bunch of these portable external fellowships, like the NSF GRFP. So, I’ll put them in the show notes if people want to kind of peruse through. A lot of people know about the NSF fellowship, but there are some other ones that are a little bit less known. You mentioned Ford earlier. That’s another great one. So anyway, there’ll be a list there, several ones you can probably apply to, you know, in the year that you’re applying to graduate school and then in a few years after that, but you’re taking care of for a few years. So, that’s amazing.

Lessons Learned from Undergrad Personal Finance Course

07:53 Emily: Okay, so now we’re going to fast forward, you know, that was kind of the fall of your last year of undergrad. And then I believe in the spring semester you took a personal finance course. So, tell me a little bit about that course. Like why did you elect to take it, and maybe like two to three big takeaways from the course that you think would be really instructive for other PhDs to know?

08:14 George: Yeah. So, my school like offers this course called Personal Finance and Investments. I actually learned about it the fall that I was applying to graduate school. And I always wanted to take a personal finance class because I didn’t really know anything about personal finance. I didn’t know how to invest. I didn’t know how to make a budget. I didn’t know any of that stuff. And in my first few semesters, I thought of like, “Oh, maybe it’s microeconomics or macroeconomics or something like that,” but I read the summary and it didn’t make sense. So, I finally found this class and that’s like, “Oh, this is the class.” So, I took it and it was a great class. Like, it was a kind of a learning curve. You had to kind of learn the language of personal finance. Like what’s a dividend and all these different stuff.

Lesson 1: You Don’t Have to be an Expert to Invest

08:55 George: But after I got the hang of it, it kind of went very smoothly and I got like way more invested in it. And if I was to say to like three things that I thought that I learned from that class that were very helpful to me, the first big one is that to invest, you don’t really need to like follow the stock market and be like an expert and kind of like, look at it every single second of every day. There are like a lot of different kinds of innovative ways that allow kind of like people who are super busy or people that are kind of inexperienced to actually have a good experience investing.

09:29 Emily: If I can summarize that first point or what you were starting to say, it’s that, I mean, I love the way you phrased it. Like investing does not have to be something that you are paying attention to all day long every day in and out. I think that is an image that we have in our culture of what investing is, maybe from like, I don’t know, the eighties or the nineties or something, like it’s kind of archaic at this point. Because index funds, which I think was what you were starting to talk about there. They’ve been around for, I don’t know, four or five decades at this point, but only have really been gaining in popularity in the last couple of decades. But index funds, like you were saying, just are a diversification. Like you get a lot of different investments, stock investments often in one bucket and it’s representative of kind of the whole market or an entire sector of the market. And so you can buy, you essentially buy everything when you buy an index fund and it’s in a given market sector. That means you’re buying the winners. It means you’re buying the losers. But it turns out that that’s a more effective strategy than trying to pick the winners and avoid the losers. Is that what you were learning through your course?

10:31 George: Yeah, so, it was big because like, I think like a lot of people think they have to beat the market, but if you match the market, you kind of avoid that pitfall of like losing to the market. Because it either could go really bad or really good, or you could just match it. And then the market kind of like trends up. So, I decided to go that way, kind of like passive investing. So, that’s like the one, the first big thing that you don’t have to, it’s not a full-time job to invest, which is really nice, since as a grad student, I’ll be very busy.

11:04 Emily: Actually, if I could expand on that for one more second. So, I also tell people like investing should not be your side hustle. Like you should not be spending a ton of time working on your investments. And I always say to them, like, if you want a full-time job doing investing, get a full-time job as an investor, be a hedge fund manager or go do that kind of thing. Like, make a ton of money off of this. Don’t just play around with your own money. If you’re going to be, you know, actually investing that kind of time into the process, which again, I don’t think is necessary or a good idea. So to me, investing is kind of like learn about it for a little while, you set up what you need to set up, and then you just let it run and you just do maintenance and you don’t have to, you know, mess around with it a whole lot.

Lesson 2: Make an Emergency Fund

11:45 George: Yeah. I totally agree, because like, I’ve been investing for a while now and it’s like, it’s not really time-consuming at all. I kind of like check it at least once a day just because I like looking at it. But other than that, it’s not like I’m constantly fidgeting with my stuff. And I think the more you fidget with it, the more fees you get. So, it’s like, it’s kind of like passive investing. It’s kind of like a win-win. But I guess two more points that I would say that are really nice that I got out of it is that kind of making an emergency fund. I never really thought of that. Kind of like before, an emergency happens, you just have the money in your savings account. So, I’ve been trying to get my emergency fund kind of like they say at a minimum is three months but I’m hoping to get it like higher, maybe to nine months, if possible.

Lesson 3: Time Value of Money

12:29 George: And I’m kind of slowly building towards that. And another thing that I learned that was pretty interesting is that, kind of like this thing called, I think it’s called time, money value, a time value of money. It’s kind of like a dollar today is worth more than a dollar a year from now. So, if you can get money today and kind of put it in your investments or put it into your savings account, maybe like a high yield savings account, that will be worth more than kind of like $50, maybe a year from now, that you weren’t able to get that interest off of by having it in your account. So, I never really thought of it that way. I kind of, I always thought that like, “Oh, if I have a thousand dollars today, it’s the same as having a thousand dollars in 10 years.” So, those are kind of like the three big things that I would think of that I got from the class.

13:15 Emily: Yeah. I think the time value of money is also just a, it’s a mind-blowing concept. Like once you kind of understand like compound interest and how much your money can work for you. And I think the point that, you know, graduate students especially should take away from that is it’s okay–it’s great–to start investing now with a very small amount of money. It will not be a small amount of money decades from now when you actually reach retirement. So, what I like to say is that graduate students should not dismiss whatever tiny amount of money they might be able to start investing right now. Maybe it’s $10 a month. Maybe it’s $50 a month. That money will add up over time with this factor of compounding with the time value of money applied to it. And so, yeah, it’s not something that you should just say, “Oh, well, I can’t really save that much, so I’m not going to bother. Like, it’s still something you should pursue, even if it’s a small amount of money today.

14:05 George: Yeah. Totally agree.

What Financial Changes Did You Make?

14:08 Emily: And so, what did you actually, you know, you took this fabulous course, you learned a lot from it. What changes did you actually make? So, you’ve already mentioned that you started investing. Can you talk a little bit about how you started down that road?

14:20 George: Yeah, so I started investing well, like the first thing I did was I tried to get my financial life together, trying to get like my financial health in order because I didn’t really know anything. So, I started tracking my finances. So, I got the Mint app. I started tracking how much money I spend in a month. And the first month I wasn’t really trying to make a budget. I was just trying to understand my money habits and see what I could change. See what I wanted to keep. And then I started thinking about budgeting. And then after that I started my emergency fund. I also started collecting all of my important documents, like my birth certificate and my social security number and putting them in one place. They were kind of like scattered around. So, I wanted to put them in one place and kind of like, just get all of my stuff, like organized, like the first few months.

15:05 George: And then after I got myself situated and kind of like knew what was going on financially, that’s when I started investing. I decided to do a Robo Roth at the start until I get kind of like experienced with the stock market. And then I plan to transfer it over to a manual one to kind of like start my own Roth. So, my manual Roth–I mean not my manual Roth, my Robo Roth, I’m kind of like, “invest stuff for me,” and it’s kind of in the safest way possible. So, I don’t kind of like put it in something that kind of like blows up in my face and I lose all my retirement money. And my brokerage account is kind of just, it’s a tax account, but I only put money in there that I put in there so I can kind of gain experience with buying stocks and selling stocks and stuff like that.

15:50 George: So, and now that I think about it, one other thing that I learned from my class is that, when I’m looking at stocks and stuff, there are these things called like target-date retirement kinds of funds, which is like kind of nice. And I plan when I make my manual Roth, I actually planned a large part of it to be a target-date fund, which will kind of like change based on how close I am to retirement. And so after I did all of that, I kind of like started thinking about like different things that I learned about in my class that I should think about when I’m kind of like investing my brokerage account. Like don’t invest what I’m not willing to lose. And like, if you don’t understand it, don’t invest in it. And I started kind of like building up my portfolio and now I have like a pretty decent nest egg. So, I’m pretty proud of how I’ve gotten so far in the last few months.

Choosing a Robo-Advisor

16:42 Emily: I know, you haven’t even started graduate school yet. I mean, which is arguably I guess not a job, and you’re just getting out of undergrad, and I don’t know, it’s a fabulous amount of progress that you’ve made in this time. Which robo-advisor did you choose to start with?

16:57 George: Oh, so I actually chose Betterment. So, there are several different websites, I think there’s NerdWallet, that kind of review all these different things. Something else I learned from my class is don’t take it from one source alone, kind of go to multiple different sources and then based on all the sources together, make a decision. And kind of like across the board people suggested Betterment. So, I kind of went with Betterment since it had such great reviews all across the board.

17:31 Emily: Mhm. I think, I don’t know specifically, this is true for Betterment. It might be because you chose them. But one of the advantages that robo-advisors have is that they often have $0 minimums to start investing. So, it’s a great place like you’re doing when you’re just at the very, very start of your journey to use something like that, as you were saying, sort of some more familiarity, get some experience. And then you can switch over as you were planning on doing to a Roth IRA that you manage yourself through one of like the discount brokerage firms, like Vanguard, Fidelity, Schwab. I’m sure you’re looking at one of those three, if not something similar, for once you switch, but those often have some kind of minimum. So, I know like my strategy when I started my Roth IRA was I started with Fidelity because they, at that time, they waived their minimum if you had a $50 per month automated investing plan. So, I did that until I had $3,000 and then I switched over to Vanguard, because that’s where I really wanted to be, once I had the Vanguard $3,000 minimum. So, it sounds like you’re probably doing something similar with your robo-advisor to, you know, a Roth IRA that you’ll manage yourself strategy. Is that right?

18:34 George: Yeah. And there are like multiple different reasons as well. Like a big one is like the minimum so that like I could start investing now so that even if it’s a little bit, I could still start growing my investments. And also, when I get to a decent amount, I’ll be able to get, like, I think there are minimums in mutual funds as well. So, it’s like in order to invest in mutual funds, you need to have a certain amount of money. I’m not there yet. So, I think I’ll keep it in my Robo fund, which is kind of very low expense. Very kind of like, easy to, well, not low expenses–you can put as little money there as possible, and then it starts going in investments. But I feel like with the robo-advisors, I don’t want to keep it in there too long because they have these expense ratios. And if I have a large amount of money, I kind of start eating at my investments. But I think early on in the process that this was the best decision for me.

19:25 Emily: Yeah. And expense ratio, for those in the audience who haven’t started investing yet, is a representation. It’s a percentage representation of the total cost of owning whatever the investment is. So, with something like a robo-advisor, they usually add to the expense ratio of the underlying funds that you buy. Maybe about a 0.25% fee, which is sort of low. It sounds like pretty low. But you can get quite a bit lower if you just manage it yourself. Like you’re planning on doing, you know, in a few months or a year or whatever. You can get down under like 0.1%, 0.05%, even down to 0% expense ratios. So, there are very, very low expense ratios out there, even though the robo-advising fee doesn’t sound very high. Over time, as you were saying, it really does add up. Whatever you’re paying in expenses compounds, as we were talking about earlier, and it could end up being quite a bit of money over your entire investing lifetime. But your plan sounds really great to me. It sounds like you’ve gone about it in a totally intelligent way. So, that’s awesome.

Commercial

20:27 Emily: Emily here, for a brief interlude. I am just bursting with this news. I have launched a Community for Personal Finance for PhDs. The Community is for PhDs and people pursuing PhDs who want to level up their practice of personal finance by opening and funding an IRA, starting to budget, aggressively paying off debt, financially navigating a life or career transition, maximizing the income from a side hustle, preparing an accurate tax return, and much more. Inside the Community, you’ll have access to a library of financial education products I’ve made in the past. And I’m going to add new trainings to that library every month. There is also a discussion forum, monthly live calls with me, a book club, and progress journaling for financial goals. Basically, the Community is going to help you reach your financial goals, whatever they are. Go to pfforphds.com/community to find out even more. If you’re listening to this in real-time, you have the opportunity to become a founding member of the Community at a discount. The price is going up on August 15th, 2020, so don’t delay. Go to pfforphds.com/community for all the details. I can’t wait to help propel you to financial success. Now, back to the interview.

George’s Financial Resources Document

21:47 Emily: Could you share like why you created the document that you did? Because I think it came out of the course, right? What you were learning from the course?

21:57 George: Yeah so, I was learning all the different stuff and I started kind of looking up all these different, like websites and I found your website and many other websites and I started bookmarking them. And then, since I was kind of so engrossed with it, I would talk about it. So, I’m a McNair scholar at University of Central Florida, and we’re in this kind of like community together. And I always talk about it to other McNair scholars, and they ask me for advice, they ask me, “Oh, what can I learn about this?” And then I would kind of like blow them up with links. And I didn’t think it was kind of the best way to go about it. So, I decided to make an easy to read document with like the links, kind of like embedded in words.

22:36 George: So, you can read through it in kind of a relaxing way, and then click a link if you want to learn more about what I was talking about. And then I posted this in our McNair group chat. But then I thought it would be nice for other people to use this as well as they wanted to. So, I posted it on my Twitter, and I think a few people were able to like use it to learn more about personal finance.

22:58 Emily: Yeah. And we’ll link to the document in the show notes as well because I thought it was really well put together. So, thank you for doing that. Thank you for that, like, community service.

Factors in Choosing a Graduate School

23:06 Emily: Okay. So, now we’re in the spring semester, you have, you know, you have applied to your fellowships, you’ve applied to graduate school. You’re being admitted to different programs. And of course, you know, we’re considering a lot of things when we choose a graduate program, the quality of the research, the mentor that you might work with, maybe overall the program, the structure of it, where it’s located and so forth. But you know, the stipend, I think should be one of those considerations. Did you factor in the finances when you were choosing which graduate program to attend, or were you able to make the decision based on those other factors?

23:41 George: So, I applied to like nine graduate schools, and I think from eliminating the first ones, it was mostly based on like the research and like the faculty and the resources and stuff like that. But then when I got to the end, it was kind of hard to decide. It was a very hard decision. And when I was down to two, like based on cost of living of the two areas, the stipends were very similar, the research interests were really similar. Like everything was very similar. So, it was kind of hard to kind of make that decision. So, I think what it came down to was kind of two things. The first thing was that one school was kind of like calling me and checking up on me, answering my questions and that kind of like had a really good impact on me.

24:27 George: But then the last thing is that the school that I decided to go to, which is Stanford, they offered transitioning costs. So, like transitioning funds. So, I think transitioning to grad, I mean, I haven’t done it yet, but I’ve heard that transitioning to grad school can be really expensive. So, that they offered kind of some funds to allow me to kind of like take that stress off of me was kind of like, I think that’s what kind of pushed me to choose Stanford since it was a really hard decision.

24:58 Emily: I think that’s an excellent, I mean it’s a really, really good insight into your decision-making process. It sounds like, you know, these final two schools, it was really close. What tipped you over was, you know, people at Stanford were really attentive to you, checking up on you, and then they offered you this moving fund. And I mean, that’s something that graduate programs should know about. If something that minor, a few thousand dollars I assume?

25:19 George: It was actually $500.

Consider Stipends AND Cost of Living

25:20 Emily: Oh, $500? Okay. Right. So, $500, which is like nothing to the graduate programs, could tip an excellent candidate like you, you know, you won this outside fellowship, you’re bringing in money. If something like offering you $500 could tip the scales in their favor, that’s something that they all should be doing, frankly, at this point. So, I think you mentioned something in there really quickly, but I believe you said something like after you factored in the cost of living of the two different places, the stipends were similar, is that right? So the stipends themselves weren’t actually the same, but they were similar to another, once you factored in the cost of living, is that right? Can you talk about how you did that?

25:57 George: Yeah. So, like the cost of living at Stanford is much higher. So, the two schools, I guess, were Stanford and Cornell. So, the cost of living in Palo Alto is much higher than the cost of living in Ithaca, New York. So, the Stanford stipend was much higher than the Cornell stipend, but there are different websites where you can put in the location. I think it’s a cost of living calculator. You could put in the location where you plan to live and then the money that you’ll be bringing in, and there are also like tax calculators, because there are different tax rules. So, you can calculate how much tax will be coming out of your stipend. They can calculate how your stipend compares if you were to live in another area. And I kind of compared the two stipends and they were very similar, like almost identical, once you took into consideration cost of living. So, I couldn’t really use that as a reason to choose one over the other.

26:53 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out. Like, I mean, even, you know, I also was sort of getting into personal finance in the year that I was applying to graduate school, and I didn’t even do that step that you did of taking that into consideration. I was just kind of looking at, “Oh, the stipends are all sort of similar. I don’t know. I assume the cities are different, but I never sat down and like actually did that little, little bit of math that you did. So, it’s a great idea just for the audience, anyone else going through this. I really like to use the MIT Living Wage database or calculator, livingwage.mit.edu. And it shows you what the living wage is for every, you know, county or metro city area in the U.S. And so, that’s the factor that I like to use.

27:31 Emily: That’s what we use in phdstipends.com, which is my database website where people enter their stipends and then we do this little division, like you were just saying, of divide the stipend by the local cost of living from this database and spit out this like factor, you know, is it more than one? Is it less than one? So, exactly what you were doing, maybe using a different calculator, but I think it’s really, really smart.

Housing Budget and Taxes

27:51 Emily: So, okay. You’ve chosen to go to Sanford, and you already were just mentioning some of the basic building blocks of the budget that you’ll have once you start graduate school. Like you were talking about taking into consideration how much your taxes are going to be. And I know that you’ve been preparing a budget over this summer before you’re moving to Palo Alto. So, can you talk about that process a little bit, and also about your decision around housing?

28:12 George: Yeah. So, I started my budget already. So, the first thing that I kind of took out of my budget was taxes. Because what I kind of like found out that was pretty surprising is that they don’t take taxes out of fellowships. So, like your income tax will be kind of just like given to you and you’re expected to know that it’s supposed to be paid back in taxes.

Quarterly Taxes on Non-W-2 Income

28:34 Emily: Okay. Let’s pause there because I think we need to emphasize that. At most universities, it sounds like it’s Stanford included, if you’re receiving a fellowship, which is what I call non-W-2 income. So, fellowship, training grant, this kind of income. Very likely, they will not be withholding income tax for you, as a domestic student. For international students, they do. So, let’s emphasize that again. You are receiving your entire paycheck, but that does not mean that you get to keep all of that. Part of that is going to go back to the IRS in the form of income taxes, which you may have to pay quarterly. I’ll link in the show notes to my resources on that. It’s probably ones that you found, George, as you were doing this research. But yeah, please keep going. I just wanted to, like–we don’t want to gloss over that. Like, you will probably end up paying income tax and you have to do it yourself. It’s not done for you. And it’s a process that a lot of people just completely miss and they have an ugly surprise when they get to their taxes after their first year of graduate school.

29:30 George: Yeah. And actually, I plan to do quarterly taxes as well. So, I was kind of like putting it together so that every month, like I kind of calculated how much taxes I would owe at the end, and then I divided that by 12. And then I would kind of like save that amount of money every single month. So, when it comes to that time, when I have to pay my quarterly tax, I already have it in my savings account and I can just pay it. But that’s the first thing I kind of put away. And then I went to my housing. So, at Stanford, they have housing on campus which is subsidized. So, it’s kind of nice that I was able to kind of apply to housing at Stanford.

30:06 George: So, I kind of looked at all the housing options, and out all of the ones that I liked, I kind of picked the highest monthly rent, and I put that in my budget. And I was thinking that, if I get a lower one, I could just change that in my budget. It will be easier to change to lower than to higher. So, that was kind of my thought process on that. And then with my budget, I tried to make it so that it’s not a budget that I kind of don’t like looking at. So, I kind of like, as I said before, like I tried to find out how I spend my own money and I tried to make a budget that I can comfortably live within the budget, and I gave myself some breathing room.

30:44 George: I wanted my budget to be kind of pleasant to live on so I don’t kind of like break my budget. So, I kind of was thinking like, “Okay, I spent this much on food. Let me give myself a little breathing room since I can kind of like afford to do that.” And then I also put some money in there for shopping. I put some money in there for transportation because I don’t plan to bring my car with me my first year. And then I also put like 20 to 25% away for investments. So, kind of like putting stuff into my savings accounts, putting stuff into my Roth IRA. And then for my brokerage account, I don’t plan to put monthly in there until I have a good amount in my savings account, but then I plan to start putting monthly into my brokerage account. For now, I’ll just kind of like, if I have some money from the money I put away for shopping and for like kind of random stuff, I’ll buy some stocks if I feel like I want to, but it won’t be like a monthly thing that I put money specifically away for yet. But that’s kind of like what I decided to put in my budget.

Ranking Housing Options

31:53 Emily: I want to go back just to the housing point for a second, because I think you’ve made a really good decision, which was like, okay, so you’re applying for all this, you know, subsidized on-campus housing. You account in your budget for the highest possible rent you would be paying. But is that actually how it turned out? Like what housing did you, when you were saying where you wanted to live, was that the one that you put at the top of your list? Or like how did you rank order that list and what did you actually get into?

32:18 George: So, I ranked the list, so there’s like really new housing that’s coming out. It’s going to actually debut this fall semester. So, I put that at the top of my list and that was actually the most expensive, and I was able to get it. So, I didn’t change my budget, but I also had these different ones that were a little bit older, but they had good amenities. They would have good spacing. And I actually got the tour it when I was at my interview. So, I would be fine living with it. It’s not like I would be like, “Oh, I can’t live here and I’ll have to live somewhere else.” So, that’s how I ranked it.

32:53 George: But, there were other options that were really, really expensive. So, I kind of listed those. They say to list everything, so I listed them, but they were like in 30th place, like it was kind of ridiculous how much they cost. So, I tried to kind of combine quality, but also the cost of living because I feel like housing, I think when I was reading my budgeting you should try to keep housing as close to 50% as possible. My housing is a little bit, it’s still over 50%, but I think it’s kind of difficult to kind of get 50% or lower as a grad student. So, I tried to get as close to that as possible. And with some of the other housing, it was like well over 50%. So, I tried to take into consideration that I should try to be close to 50%, if at all possible.

33:43 Emily: Yeah, I think I don’t know exactly what you were learning in the course, but according to the balanced money formula, which is a framework that I like to reference, you should keep all of your necessary expenses below 50% of your net income, which is really, really challenging to do on a graduate student stipend and also on a graduate student stipend in a high cost of living area, which is what you’re doing. So, it’s not surprising at all to me that even you, you know, making a prudent housing choice, it’s still over 50% of your income. That is pretty common for graduate students in high cost of living areas. But yeah, so it sounds like you were, you know, really thinking through both the finances and the lifestyle that you wanted to have with that housing decision. So, super happy that you were, you know, really intentional about that.

Long-Term Emergency Savings Goals

34:29 Emily: And you were mentioning just now, like some of your financial goals for your finances in graduate school. You mentioned that you were going to be saving/investing 20 to 25% of your income and then possibly doing a little bit more investing if you wanted to at any particular time. And I think you also mentioned earlier that you wanted to save up an emergency fund of nine months of expenses. Is that right? Is that your ultimate goal?

34:54 George: Yeah, I’m trying to, one day I hope to get to nine months. So, I would say my kind of goals for personal finance and graduate school, in particular, are kind of modest. I’m not looking to have like a huge, huge thing by the time I graduate. I hope to kind of like build habits and get into the habit of kind of like investing, get into the habit of staying on my budget, getting into the habit of putting money away monthly. Because like in undergrad, I didn’t have any of those habits, and I think that’s something I’m going to have to kind of build. And also, have at least like three months, hopefully nine months, of my emergency fund. Because I know that emergencies are emergencies and I doubt I won’t have any emergencies in graduate school.

35:37 George: So, hopefully by the time I graduate, I’ll have at least three months, hopefully nine months. And then kind of have a decent amount in my kind of Roth IRA as well as in my brokerage account, and that I’ve kind of stayed consistent throughout the five, six, or maybe seven years that I’ll be doing my PhD of monthly, always, putting some money away and not falling into blowing money on stuff. But also giving me that kind of flexibility to have fun and to do things that I find kind of amusing so that I don’t get too stressed through graduate school.

36:13 Emily: I think that’s such an excellent point that you made. Like yes, it would be great to come out of graduate school with savings, with investments, with a nice nest egg. That’s what happened for me. My husband and I defended with quite a good nest egg, and it was really fabulous for our subsequent life. But, the more important thing, actually, is the habit formation. And it’s sort of changing your–like becoming a person who budgets, becoming a person who invests. Now, I know I said earlier that it matters a whole lot. Like if you do that with a small amount of money, it’s great, and yes, that’s true. But, even more powerful is the habit. And so, when you have that nice post-PhD salary, and you’re already in the habit of investing or you’re in the habit of saving, you can then apply those habits to that fabulous higher income and really make some fast progress with your, you know, financial goals.

Any Other Goals for Grad School?

37:02 Emily: So, I think that was such a good point that you made, and even for people who aren’t able to do what you plan on doing, which is still, you know, saving and investing during graduate school. Even getting into the habit of budgeting, like that can be a great goal for your time during graduate school is just to make those changes in yourself and who you are. Even if you aren’t able to come out with more savings, again, once you have the post-PhD income, you’ll be able to keep applying those habits and really make some fast progress. So, such an excellent point, George. Any other goals you have for graduate school, aside from the ones that we just talked about?

37:37 George: I guess like, I mean, there are like nonfinancial goals, like kind of building like skills and kind of building my network and traveling and learning all the different stuff from different people. But financial-wise, I just hope to kind of pay as little in taxes as possible, learn how to file my own taxes. Kind of learn like all the financial things that I need to know to kind of like succeed. I think for my brokerage account, I’ll be kind of investing. I think the money in there is probably going to be used as a down payment on a house in the future. That’s kind of like, well far off, but I’m kind of thinking, “Oh, I’m investing in my brokerage account. I’ll probably use it to kind of buy a house or have some money towards a house.” Kind of things like that. Those are kind of like the goals I’m thinking of, but I don’t really have like super hard, concrete stuff yet. But those are kind of the things I’ve been thinking about.

38:30 Emily: Yeah. I think it’s great that you identified like, “Okay, I know it’s important to have an emergency fund.” You’re going build that up. “I know it’s important to save for retirement. I’m going to build that up.” And then, “Okay, whatever else comes, I have this other brokerage account, you know, other savings I can use for that. If it’s a house down payment, if it’s something else.” I think that’s a great way to structure your finances when you have a lot of unknowns in the future, as is very, very common for PhDs, because we never know where we’re going to live. You know, after, it’s a lot of uncertainty that we live with kind of longterm.

38:59 Emily: But George, it was a real pleasure to talk with you today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing this beginning part of your journey. I hope that we’ll catch up with you again in maybe a few months or a year and see if it’s all panning out the way you thought it would. Thank you so much for sharing your insight.

39:15 George: Yeah, no problem. It was a pleasure to be able to talk about it.

Outtro

39:17 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How to Negotiate as a Graduate Student or PhD in Industry and Academia

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Abby Rainer, a PhD in organizational communication and Lean Six Sigma Black Belt. Abby’s dissertation focused on women in STEM careers negotiating their first jobs, and the expertise she brings to our interview is from her education, her research, and her personal experience. We discuss the correct way to frame your negotiation and why that’s challenging for some PhDs; the importance of considering all aspect of your offer, not just your salary; the similarities and differences between negotiating in academia vs. industry; and the biggest misconception people hold regarding negotiation.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

PhD negotiation

Teaser

00:00 Abby: Realizing that negotiation doesn’t have to be a one-shot, do or die, black and white kind of mindset. It can be over time. You will get many, many different chances to negotiate your worth or negotiate your package and everything.

Introduction

00:18 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode 11, and today my guest is Dr. Abby Rainer, a PhD in organizational communication and Lean Six Sigma Black Belt. Abby’s dissertation focused on women in STEM careers negotiating their first jobs, and the expertise she brings to our interview is from her education, her research and her personal experience. We discuss the correct way to frame your negotiation and why that’s challenging for some PhDs, the importance of considering all aspects of your offer, not just your salary, the similarities and differences between negotiating in academia versus industry, and the biggest misconception people hold regarding negotiation. This is a jam-packed episode that will be valuable for graduate students and PhDs at every stage of their careers. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Abby Rainer.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:22 Emily: I have joining me on the podcast today Dr. Abby Rainer, and we’re going to be talking a lot about negotiation and mindsets around that, particularly women in negotiation. I’m so excited for this topic, and Abby is an actual expert. This is related to her PhD work, and she now has a business related to this area. So, she’s going to tell us all a lot more about that. Abby, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. And will you fill our listeners in about your background?

01:48 Abby: Sure. Thank you for having me, Emily. I really appreciate being on here. So, to cover my background in a pretty brief term, I got my PhD from Michigan State University in 2018 and got a similar combination of a bachelor’s and master’s degree from Wake Forest. I got the master’s in 2015 and the bachelor’s at the end of 2013. So, I combined both of those degrees into five years just so I could hurry up and get onto the PhD.

02:14 Abby: I was cross-trained in several different areas that are relevant to today’s topic, including communication, industrial organizational psychology, management, human resources, and then education administration. And then areas that I trained on and did research on as well as other administrative work included areas like social support, stress, family planning, and some health topics. But then I also had a lot of business topics like specifically, if you are looking to negotiate your benefits and compensation packages. And then I looked a lot at STEM career trajectories. So, how women were flourishing and more male-dominated areas and the strategies they use to choose their careers and kind of how those paths sort of manifested for them. And then on top of, with my recent background, I have made courses for grad students on Udemy that cover areas like negotiating your benefits and compensation for grad school. And then also if they want to do more of a process improvement project on their finances, then they can find my green belt training there too, which covers a lot of very simple and straightforward ways to save money and document how you do that. It gives you a lot of tools on how to figure that out.

What is Your Udemy Site?

03:22 Emily: Yeah. Could you repeat the name of your Udemy site?

03:26 Abby: Sure. So, the Udemy is just a sort of, what’s called a MOOCs So, a Massive [Open] Online Course website and people can go to Udemy’s website and then they can just type in things like “grad school funding.” That would be a series of keywords that would bring up my training on graduate school benefits and compensation. And then they could also type in green belt, Six Sigma Green Belt, or Lean Six Sigma Green Belt and also my name. So, that should help them see where that pops up. I’ve only created one green belt training. I’ve not had more than one, so it should isolate that one particular training very quickly.

Abby’s Dissertation: Women in STEM + Negotiation

04:01 Emily: Oh good. Yeah, I wasn’t sure if it was going to be under like your name or like a business name or something. Abby, what’d you tell us a little bit in more detail, what was the subject of your dissertation?

04:10 Abby: Sure. So, I kind of in connection with what I was talking about earlier, I had done research on women in STEM careers and then work on negotiation in general. Like I gave some presentation work on hostage negotiation and terrorism, and this is a very different type of negotiation, but having a background, like a family background in finance, I kind of wanted to combine all those areas and some finance research I had done and specifically look at how women going into STEM careers, specifically their first STEM careers, how they negotiated not only their salaries, but really other types of compensation they could get like their health care packages, how much family time, like leave they had for, for instance, caring for children, and then other areas like bonuses and just work assignments as well.

04:56 Emily: And what drew you to that area? Why did you choose that for your PhD work?

05:01 Abby: I chose that because there was a lot of work that involved experiments, for instance, that created hypothetical situations, but these women were real-life women who had actually gone through actual negotiations in different companies across the United States. And so, I wanted to get a sense of reality. I wanted to see what women were actually going through and I collected a mix of quantitative and qualitative data. I used most of the quantitative data for the PhD sort of dissertation part, but I also created a series of questions in the survey that looked at, for instance, what were the descriptions of the negotiations actually happening, like who was involved in the negotiation? Did they say anything that was maybe discriminatory or that showed some sort of bias toward the women? And so, really looking at those areas, I started to pull some data on things like how much training impacted different outcomes, like how much money women were thinking of walking away with, or how much they actually walked away with.

05:59 Abby: And then I also looked at about 20 different benefits that women were able to get during negotiations, like a series of negotiations, and which ones they tended to get, so I could isolate different trends as to what people were more likely to walk away with other than just the salary being increased.

06:16 Emily: Yeah. I love that you actually took this forward into, let’s not just look at what’s going on, but what interventions are possible to actually help the situation a bit. That’s great. And I’m sure that we’ll talk more about that in a minute here, but just for the listeners. I mean, Abby obviously is an expert in this area. She has a lot to say, so we’re going to move really quickly through a few different questions in this interview. And if you want to follow up with her, which I imagine many of you will want to, check out the website that she already mentioned, her courses and so forth, and you’ll get a lot more of the content there.

Role of Mindset in Negotiation 

06:48 Emily: So, okay. I have been talking more and more recently about mindset and about its importance in personal finance. And I know that you also know something about mindset with respect to negotiation. So, what role does mindset play when you’re going into negotiation?

07:07 Abby: I think that mindset has everything to do with not only how confident you are, but also how effective you are. And you have to monitor how you are coming across in an interview so that you have to develop that sense of mindfulness. That way you can do what’s called pivoting. So, pivoting will be that you notice that someone’s not responding particularly well to a negotiation tactic, like using too much silence, for instance. You can turn the conversation around and ultimately start executing a series of steps based on that reaction to get what you want. So, you have to really stay in the present with the conversation, that way you’re able to assess the situation ongoing.

07:40 Abby: And you’re just able to create new strategies or choose ones that you already have in mind as you go along and just keep responding to what’s there, not what’s going on in your head and not what you think should be happening.

How Can PhDs Overcome a Scarcity Mindset when Negotiating?

07:50 Emily: I see. So, kind of what I’m hearing is what happens in negotiation is not totally set, linear, this is the exact script kind of path. And you have to be kind of adaptive to what is going on in the situation. And how can a PhD–like I know a lot of PhDs come into this whole post-PhD career thing with a lot of hangups that they developed in graduate school, around money and around their worth and so forth. And, you know, we might even call this like a scarcity mindset, or like a poverty mindset. And so, how does a PhD set that aside when they’re going into a negotiation? Like how do you actually overcome that if that’s what’s happened during graduate school?

08:31 Abby: I think that one really good way to look at it, especially if you were going into a non-academic job or if you were going into your first professor job and you’re not really sure, kind of where you stand compared to other people is, think through how to calculate and communicate your ROI or return on investment. That’s a very important business term not a lot of PhDs really think about or know how to calculate or communicate. But whenever you’re in a negotiation, let’s just say, I’m going to use a real life example of mine. I was interviewing with a major retailer, specifically in the jean sector, once for a job. I had to fly out to a different state to do that. And as I was there, I talked with, I think about 10 to 20 people.

09:11 Abby: And just one day, I had a series of individual meetings with some people, like higher-level directors, and then a larger lunch with a smaller group of people who were lower-ranked. I think they were maybe talent recruiters or something. And so, what I learned while there was that people wanted to hear how you were able to contribute to the table in ways they understood. So, with that particular case, I was interviewing for a jean company. So, some language to use when communicating my ROI would have been things like “best-sellers.” Like if I wanted to predict who was going to be engaged in a company over time, so looking at employee engagement, how to improve that, I could say the five best-sellers or in more or less research terms that grad students might understand, the five predictors of work engagement would be, let’s just say supervisor quality and four other things.

10:03 Abby: So, learning how to speak in ways that people in industry understand that don’t necessarily rely on statistics, because a lot of them don’t really know very much, if anything, about statistics is a good idea. And you can apply that mindset too if you’re applying to academic jobs like being a professor or a postdoc. You just have to know, for instance, let’s just say for ROI, you wanted to calculate how much grant money you’ve brought to the table when applying for different grants, or how many students you’ve taught, or ways that you’ve saved the university money. Other things like those can be communicated in a way that’s specific to your department or organization and what they care about. So, match what you’ve done to what people care about, and communicate it in a way that uses industry-specific language that they understand. And you should be good to go and sort of like start to defeat that poverty mindset over time. Because you can physically see–you can’t really contradict numbers in that case–you can see on paper, “Okay, I’ve done a hundred thousand worth of grants in one year. That’s a lot of money.” So, just starting to visualize that, but also learn how to be precise is important.

Focus on Thriving, Not Just Surviving

11:07 Emily: Yeah. What I’m hearing you say in this portion is like, I think part of the problems, and these are universal outside of academic training or whatever. Some people, a lot of people come into a negotiation thinking, “What do I need to survive? What kind of salary do I need to command to have the lifestyle that I want?” And coming out of graduate school, it’s probably not a high number because you’ve probably been living on a pretty, pretty low salary for the last several years. And you’re reframing this not as, “Okay, well, what do I need to get by?” But rather, “What value am I bringing to this organization? What metrics, what proof points do I have to back this up?” And also the further step of, “I need to communicate this to them in a way that they’re going to latch onto and appreciate,” not necessarily your most natural way of communicating. Does that sum up what you were saying?

11:55 Abby: Absolutely. And what a lot of people have to think about is not really putting themselves of “How much money do I need to survive,” but, “What is my, what’s called, market value?” So, when you look at market value, it’s a completely different mindset from what you’re taught in grad school, because the norms in your particular field, like if you’re going into tech, the norms for salary and benefits will be different they. Somewhat depending on the company, but also compared to other industries. Like if you work in manufacturing. So, you have to just consider those differences. But also you have to think of the whole negotiation as a win-win mindset. So, it’s not just about what can I get from this company. You have to think about me, myself, and family, because realistically speaking, and I know this is kind of harsh, but a lot of people, and especially in HR, will, if people say something in an interview, like “I need this much mind to live,” unfortunately they’ll just tell you perhaps even bold facedly, they don’t care, you know, what you need to survive, which it knows is harsh and I would never–I’m in HR.

12:48 Abby: So, I would never say that to an applicant. But really the company just cares about what you can bring to the table, because the implication of you bringing things is that they will take care of you in turn. So, you don’t really have to communicate, “This is what I need.” You have to show them based on, for instance, your certificates, what your capacities are, just different software and other skills that they find relevant. You can use all of that to get more money because you are clearly bringing more to the table. They’ll be generally more willing to pay for all those skills. Because especially, at least in my case, for instance, I bring a lot of really rare skill sets to my particular job. And I got that job through a contract. And so, you know, just being able to show what all you bring that will help the company give you the money and you won’t have to worry about surviving as much. You’ll be able to think about thriving, which is completely different, as far as the psychological response goes. Survival schools, more of grad school, it’s just the bare minimum. What can I possibly scrape by? With industry, you should present yourself as what can I do to thrive and help people at work thrive and just kind of frame it like that.

Big-Picture Negotiation Items Besides Salary

13:47 Emily: Yeah, so this is really, you know, taking a step back from being very me, me as the applicant, very me-focused and more about what am I bringing to this organization? What other big-picture items should applicants be thinking about when they’re going into a negotiation process?

14:02 Abby: I think that one of the big ones that a lot of people don’t really particularly talk about, and sometimes I’ve heard in even other podcasts, maybe discourage a little bit, is thinking about what’s called the total reward lens. So, the total reward lens, if you think of the big pie, for instance, like the kind of pie you can eat, not the number. If you think of a pie and you think of all the possible pieces that could come out of it, those are all interrelated, but they’re also their own separate entities once they’ve been cut out of the pie. So, they’re able to be standalone items. Whenever you think of a total reward lens, whenever it comes to getting what you want from work, you have to think of that kind of like a pie, too, because salary is naturally going to be a big part of that pie for a lot of people. But you also have other pieces of the pie like your healthcare, which projects you can work on, the quality of your supervisor.

14:51 Abby: And then some other areas like how much autonomy do you get? Or how much natural light does your office get? And those pieces of the pie in terms of their size or their weight, depending on how you want to think about it, are all different for different people. So, you have to think about, “If I were to make my ideal pie, what would that look like in terms of where all the pieces are and how much those matter relative to the overall sort of picture that I’ve got going on?” Because different people are going to have different needs. If you’ve got a parent who’s got young children, then maybe flexibility might be more important for them. Or if you have someone who’s more into work-life balance, like they want to go ski on the weekends, then that might be very important to them, too. But it might not be as important to someone who maybe like myself is single and doesn’t really have to take care of kids, at least right now. So, it really depends on your specifics. So, you just have to like define those numbers for yourself, but also realize if you don’t get a bigger part of the pie focusing on salary, maybe you could get a bigger part of the pie that would focus on another area or two or three other areas that you also care about.

Is Everything Open for Negotiation?

15:53 Emily: Yeah. I think this is an area that people definitely don’t pay enough attention to. Like you were saying, it’s kind of all about the salary, but there are so many other aspects to your benefits or just your work culture and work style that should play into your decision about which kind of job to accept and also what to negotiate. So, would you say that is every piece of this pie up for negotiation? Or like where might one focus your negotiation if you’re not quite happy with all the different pieces?

16:22 Abby: A lot of it depends on the type of job you have. So, for instance, if you are working in a government position that is governed by a shared contract, like a collective bargaining agreement, for instance. Then certain areas of your package, like the initial salary may very well not be negotiable. I actually had to tell, whenever I was hiring people, several individuals who applied, this is part of the collective bargaining agreement. You can’t negotiate it. Over time, you can perform better and get a bonus that way. But at least with this contract, your salary, at least your base, is set. So, if you want to get more money over time, it’s really on you. You have to perform in terms of exceeding expectations. And then you can get more money that way. You can also get other money by doing other tasks that the job would be open to.

17:08 Abby: So, for instance, if you did overtime, that might be something that you’d be able to get more money from, but it again depends on whether that’s available. So, those are some examples of what all you could do besides money. And then, of course, you have to think about too, what other options are available? And most places have a lot of different options when it comes to healthcare. For instance, you might have a lower deductible, and that works for you whenever it comes to healthcare, compared to someone else who wants to have a higher deductible. Or you might want to put more money in your 401k, like a retirement account, or, you know, the company might match whatever you do put in. So, you just have to look at/get sort of an initial view. If you can, if there’s an employment handbook, that will usually tell you different things like the possible packages available, the benefits, like maybe gym membership.

17:53 Abby: So, try and look there first. And usually those come through websites, they might be coming through HR. Like HR might directly send you them. Once you get your initial offer letter, just take a look at not only the offer letter, but the information they send over through those handbooks. A lot of people don’t even bother to look at those handbooks, but they’re very useful. So, I would just say, take a survey of what you’ve gotten initially. And then if you’re not happy with something, think about, “Okay, what could I bring to the table in terms of ROI to argue why I should get that thing?” So, it’s not like, most places are not going to have a huge conversation about negotiating healthcare. You go on and enroll yourself. So, that’s kind of a proxy for negotiation, but if it’s something like maybe extra days off, you would want to be able to come up with an argument to justify that. Personally, from an HR standpoint, I wouldn’t start from the job like day one saying, “I want more hours off.” I would wait until over time, maybe six months once you’ve had a little bit of tenure there, to propose that. But it just really depends on your situation. Try to take into account whatever information you do receive. And if you have questions, of course, ask at that time into your discussion, depending on your situation.

Commercial

19:04 Emily: Hey social distancers, Emily here. I hope you’re doing okay. It took a few weeks, but I think I have my bearings about me in my new normal. There is a lot of uncertainty and fear right now about our public and personal health and our economy. I would like to help you feel more secure in your personal finances and plan and prepare for whatever financial future may come. You can schedule a free 15-minute call with me at pfforphds.com/coaching to determine if financial coaching with me is right for you at this time. I hope you will reach out, if only to speak with someone new for a few minutes. Take care. Now, back to our interview.

How Employee Training Benefits the Employer

19:50 Emily: I want to mention one of the things that my husband actually negotiated for when he took his current position was, I guess you would call it, like training. So, like professional development. Maybe it’s something like, it’s not clear whether that actually like increased, you know, what he was going to get anyway, but it made it more explicit to his employer that he was looking to advance his career. And this is how he saw, you know, that he wanted to do it. And they said, “Yes” to it. Like, “Yes” to his proposal. So, I would imagine that would apply in a lot of other places, maybe where negotiation on salary or something else is a little bit more rigid. But you know, you can set yourself up right from the beginning to, you know, to seem like a go getter, right? You’re going for a promotion like right away, you know, you’re eager. You’re going to be growing your career. You want to grow with that company and how can they help you do that?

20:37 Abby: Right. And one of the things that you want to communicate whenever you’re proposing for something like more training is what kind of value that would also bring to the company, because that will set you up. For instance, one of the trainings I received during my government job, my last job, was that I was able to become a Lean Six Sigma Green Belt and a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt. And a lot of people might not know what those are or what they mean in terms of quantities, but in the process improvement area and finance and some other areas, those are very well sought-after certifications for people to have. And you can bump up your salary over time by anywhere from 5,000 with green belt to maybe 20,000 plus with a black belt.

21:13 Abby: But at the same time, you’re also able to save companies a lot of money because you’re able to go in, create change interventions, lead people through those interventions, and then identify ways that your group can maybe devote money to other resources. Like if you’re spending too much on training, for instance, and you could maybe cut costs or reallocate those costs, then maybe you can use that money to give people higher bonuses or something to that effect. So, as you’re proposing that increase in training, definitely make sure to communicate how that would benefit the company too, because in some way, shape or form, it probably will. You just want to make sure that people understand what that is from a very early standpoint. That way, you can frame your training as, “Okay, I propose there are five key goals that I’m going to get out of this. I’m going to go in, get those and I’ll show my team whatever those things were.” That way I can make sure I’m consistent with what I promised.

Negotiation in Academia vs. Industry

22:00 Emily: Excellent. So, I imagine we have people in the audience who, you know, they’re hearing your talk and you’ve mentioned industry a lot so far. But many of my listeners may be, you know, gunning to stay in academia. So, is the process of negotiation different, the same between those two different types of workplaces?

22:20 Abby: I would say that some of the behavioral norms and perceptions are very different. Because when I was in academia, I was in grad school and then I negotiated for my negotiation packages, like my benefits and compensation packages. And so, the first time I did it, wasn’t really negotiable as we were kind of on a collective bargaining agreement. Again, meaning that we all just had the same benefits and compensation. Like our stipends were all the same, and there wasn’t really a step-raise as much. But a lot of people in academia can negotiate quite a lot, too. And I would say that one of those critical parts of you negotiating, whether you’re a faculty member or a grad student of any level coming in, is that make sure you go do a campus visit. If you’re not invited to, definitely make sure you go do one. Because you want to get kind of a survey as to what your office area might look like, what the different resources like laboratories for instance are or libraries, and really how the people are, too, and kind of how everything is arranged. Because what I’ve noticed over time is that the way a department is arranged in terms of its space, its people, and its resources will tell you a lot about how you’ll fit well there or not.

23:23 Abby: So, for instance, I went to whenever deciding between two different PhD programs, I decided which one based on the visit that I went to with each one. So, whenever I went to grad school A, Choice A, I noticed that for instance, the offices had no windows whatsoever. And that’s very common in a lot of places in academia, especially if you’re in a much larger, more kind of cloistered building. And I was thinking, I’m definitely the kind of person who needs natural light. And that might not sound like a big deal to many people. But when you’re in an office for three years, constantly working on high-stress projects, maybe dealing with students who have a lot of problems and then other people who come in with different requests, you want to make sure that you have an office that’s inviting to at least some extent.

24:08 Abby: And so, I thought a natural light kind of office would be better for that. That wasn’t as big of a pie piece. Getting back to my pie analogy earlier, compared to the travel stipend that I got, for instance, but it definitely was important. So, use the visit that you get to kind of determine what you need to negotiate and think about because you can actually get a lot more by going to visit. Because whenever I went to visit, I got an extra, I think it was 4,000 at the start, from Place A compared to Place B just by contributing during the discussions that people had about, you know, why you want to become a grad student here and so on. And you’re able to meet people and add value to them. And that’s the key thing is make sure you add value that way. People are more likely to give you things in return because you can leverage that powerful principle of social reciprocity, which is if someone gets something from you, they’re more likely to give back in return.

Virtual Campus Visits

24:56 Emily: So, we’re recording this on March 23rd, 2020. And I think all PhD grad visits are probably off at this point for the remainder of admission season. Now, we’re actually going to publish this episode, I think after April 15th. So, after all the decisions have been made. But I’m just thinking about for students in this current situation, or maybe in future years when a visit is not possible for whatever reason. Of course, it’s ideal, but if it’s not possible, how can an applicant as a graduate student, or even at a later stage, get a sense of these things remotely, somehow? What do they need to do to create a facsimile of an actual visit?

25:36 Abby: Sure. So, there are different options. And I think that departments, if any faculty are listening, I would highly encourage them to explore this option. I’ll really just lay out two quick options. One would be to see if there’s any way–some departments already do this, depending on the school and the department you’re in, some don’t. Some departments offer digital tours. So, if students cannot come for whatever reason, they might have someone doing kind of a vlog of the laboratory, that might be something that’s interesting and valuable to you. And maybe you can live tweet them while you’re doing that. It really just depends on who all is leading that. Another option would be to, and you probably should do this in addition to option one, if you can. But another option would be definitely talking about your office setup and other things with faculty and grad students. Grad students would be more likely the safer option whenever it comes to communicating about what their offices are like. Faculty may very well not know anything about what current grad students are doing with their offices.

26:28 Abby: A lot of places do publish things about their grad student groups. Like who’s the president, VP, finance person, so forth. I was the finance chair with my group. But try to get out to reach that person, and they will probably connect you. If they don’t know something, they will connect you with someone who does. So, I would follow those steps. And then also just if the place has a Facebook group, for instance, definitely see what all people are taking pictures of there. And really over time, I would just say, try to ask a lot of really good questions. Because faculty and grad students love it when someone not only praises their work that they’ve been working on, but they have a mutual interest in, but also they appreciate someone who asked really thoughtful questions about things that they care about, too. So, I think if you frame it still as a win-win, like I’m giving this person a valuable, interesting conversation and they’re giving me information in turn that’s useful, I think that that will help you come across a lot more effectively. Because email conversations were very instrumental for me, too, whenever applying to grad school and deciding between different schools as well.

Misconceptions Around Negotiation

27:25 Emily: Yeah, I think if at all possible those conversations should happen over the phone or over video conferencing. Just because if a grad student, for instance, has anything not so nice to say about their department or their advisor or their group or whatever, they’re probably not going to want to put that in writing. So, it’s much better to speak live and not in a recorded fashion when you’re having those really candid conversations with current graduate students. So, thank you so much for those thoughts, Abby. And finally, can you clear up any misconceptions for us around negotiation and negotiation strategies?

28:03 Abby: I think that one of the biggest ones that I didn’t really think about early on, but started to realize over time, and then of course in retrospect, see a lot better is that a lot of people worry about negotiation if they don’t get it right the very first time–like their first semester right as, for instance, they’re getting into grad school or right as they’re becoming a professor or an industry professional–that they’ll never be able to do negotiation over time, or they’ll never be able to get it right. So, there’s that kind of fixed mentality of, “If I don’t get it now then I never will.” And that’s not necessarily true because the truth is that your job is very dynamic over time. People change. Sometimes departments get reorganized as we’ve seen more lately, whether you are in academia or in industry. Sometimes entire companies get reorganized to where their benefits and compensation structures change.

28:46 Abby: So, always be aware of what’s going on in your organization or in your grad school or your department, if you’re a faculty member or person wanting to join that. And just keep aware of the changes going on. That way, you can see different opportunities. Also make sure to realize that you are still, no matter where you are in your career, adding some sort of value, like a service, to your department or a company, for instance. So, keep abreast as to what ROI you are bringing to the table. And you can even keep, for instance, like a shout out sheet. I know a lot of people will use that. So, it’s like a list of all those accomplishments you have, what value that’s added, like making employees more engaged or improving organization, like even organizing a closet or like an area of the office where people store papers or files can be very useful. That may or may not be in your job description, but it depends on your situation.

Negotiation Can Happen Over Time

29:36 Abby: So, just realizing that negotiation doesn’t have to be a one shot, do or die, black and white kind of mindset. It can be over time. You will get many, many different chances to negotiate your worth or negotiate your package and everything. Because for instance, whenever I went into grad school, the grad school I chose for my PhD program had a lower stipend than the one that was offering me a package in return. And the reason I chose that other one was just that it really seemed to fit more with what I was hoping to do regarding the research methods path I wanted to go on, regarding the kind of set up of the department, and some other factors. But what happened was that over time I actually got, I think it was 15,000 extra dollars from that department during my three years there because I got 3,000 extra dollars in conference funding that I didn’t even have to apply for. The department chair just told me I qualified for it based on how I was a domestic student.

30:31 Abby: There were other things like consultant contracts which I was able to get and work on that brought in extra money. And then there were some other things too, like dissertation grant money that I got a lot more of there than I would have at the other place. So, I actually ended up kind of starting from a lower place at that Choice B university or not really Choice B, but Option B, and then working my way up to where I got actually a lot more money, pretty much almost a year’s worth of extra money, for only going three years. So, it doesn’t have to be like a one shot kind of picture. You just have to think over time, how can I find ways to negotiate? And if people want to read an area of IO psychology that deals with this a lot too, but not necessarily in money terms, they can look at what’s called the job crafting literature. And so, job crafting will show you different opportunities that you have to negotiate and it’s got four different categories and several of those papers. Very useful.

Where Can People Find You?

31:24 Emily: Yeah. Thank you for that tip. And speaking of, you know, where to go more, can you just mention again where people can find you if they want to hear more from you?

31:31 Abby: Sure. So, other than my Udemy course on negotiating your funding for grad school and then on another for Lean Six Sigma Green Belt, which shows people how to save money, people can also go to Twitter. My handle is @rainer_abby. And then they can also go to find me on LinkedIn a lot. And it’s just Abby Rainer PhD Lean Six Sigma Black Belt on there. So, those are the main places right now that they can go.

Best Financial Advice for an Early-Career PhD

31:59 Emily: That’s excellent. Thank you so much. And I always conclude my interviews with this question, which is what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we touched on today in the interview, or it can be something completely different.

32:13 Abby: I would say that my best financial advice would be, and one of my early advisors told me this as well, is that if you do anything regarding finance, make sure to get it in writing and to make sure it’s in very clear writing. Because sometimes especially if you’re in a company or in grad school, people will promise you things like working on projects or grant money, but they might not be very upfront about it, or very clear as to when you’ll get that money, how, and so forth. I break a lot of this down in my Udemy training on funding for grad school, but just make sure that you get everything–the who, what, when, where, why and how–very clear, because you want to know exactly where your money’s coming from, why you were getting it, how it’s going to be dispersed to you.

32:56 Abby: And if you need to return part of that for any reason, like if you’re writing a grant, how you do that. Just so that everybody is very clear about what expectations are and there’s no fuzzy area regarding what needs to be done and by who.

33:09 Emily: Yeah, I think that’s excellent advice. And it’s also not even necessarily people being like underhanded and like purposefully leading you on or whatever. Sometimes people are just forgetful. And especially, you know, like in graduate school, faculty members, they’ve got a lot on their plates, so it really is better for all parties to be really clear and put it in writing, as you said so that everyone’s on the same page about what’s going to happen and when and so forth. So, thank you so much for that advice. And thank you for this interview, Abby.

33:36 Abby: Yeah. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And I hope that people find this very useful because I didn’t know any of this before grad school or my time in academia. And some of it, I didn’t even know before my time in industry, but now that I’ve kind of been in both worlds, I see a lot of things that maybe I wouldn’t have before. And they can do that, too. It’s not just, you have to have a background in finance. You can do it regardless of where you’re from.

33:58 Emily: Absolutely. Negotiation is a topic that I don’t know as much as I would like to know about it. And so I’m highly interested in getting more of this content out to my audience. So, thank you so much for providing it.

34:08 Abby: You’re very welcome. Thank you. I appreciate you having me and hope everybody does well.

Outtro

34:13 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There you can find links to all the episode show notes and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get more involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind the scenes commentary about each episode, register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps. The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.

How This Grad Student Fellow Invests for Retirement and Pays Quarterly Estimated Tax

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In this episode, Emily interviews Lucy Capano, a rising fourth-year PhD student at Washington University in St. Louis. Since she started her graduate program, Lucy has been funded by a non-W-2 fellowship and training grant, which has affected her financial practices of retirement investing and paying income tax. Lucy and Emily discuss what changed for 2020 to permit fellowship recipients like Lucy to use an IRA and how Lucy handles calculating, saving for, and paying quarterly estimated tax to the IRS. Lucy shares her motivation for pursuing saving and debt repayment goals while in graduate school and her surprising best financial advice for another graduate student.

Links Mentioned in the Episode

fellowship tax investing

Teaser

00:00 Lucy: That amount would automatically withdraw to that separate checking account that I didn’t really use for anything. And then at the end of three months, when it was time to pay quarterly taxes, I knew I had that amount and I was not worried about it. Right? I never even saw it in my regular checking. It only went into that secondary checking account.

Intro

00:22 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast, a higher education in personal finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts. This is season six, episode nine, and today my guest is Lucy Capano, a rising fourth-year PhD student at Washington University in St. Louis. Lucy has been funded by non-W2 fellowships and training grants since she started her graduate program, which has affected her financial practices of retirement investing and paying income tax. We discuss what changed for 2020 to permit fellowship recipients like Lucy to use an IRA, and how Lucy handles calculating, saving for, and paying quarterly estimated tax to the IRS. Lucy shares her motivation for pursuing saving and debt repayment goals while in graduate school and her surprising best financial advice for another graduate student. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Lucy Capano.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

01:21 Emily: I’m delighted to welcome to the podcast today Lucy Capano who’s a rising fourth-year PhD student at Washington University in St. Louis, and we are talking about my two favorite subjects in one episode, investing and taxes, particularly for graduate students, maybe postdocs as well. So, Lucy, would you please tell the audience a little bit about yourself?

01:38 Lucy: Yeah, I’d love to. My name is Lucy, like Emily said, I’m very grateful to be here. I study neurodegenerative diseases and the age-associated causes that could be implementing them in the human brain. And we have a really cool protocol, but this is not about science. This is about taxes and budgeting because as a graduate student, we have a very limited income, and really, depending on where you are, you can have excess, or you can be really, really tight-budgeted. And it took me two-and-a-half years to really figure out where I needed to be. And so, why would I keep that information to myself? I think we should be sharing it.

Estimated Taxes on Non-W2 Fellowship Income

02:19 Emily: Yeah, I see we have a similar mission! So glad to have you on the podcast. So, your personal story, when you started graduate school, you had what I call non-W2 fellowship income. Can you talk a little bit more about that and why that was particularly financially challenging and odd at that time?

02:36 Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. As a first-year, I came in, and generally, that one is non-W2, and then I was immediately transferred to a training grant, which again means that I’m on a non-W2. So, that means my taxes that I would need to pay annually to the government are not taken out of my paycheck automatically. So, I get the full, gross amount given to me, and then I need to section portions of it to be able to pay estimated taxes. So, estimated taxes are due every quarter, April 15th. Oh my gosh. Am I going to get these dates right?

03:12 Emily: I have them. It’s mid-April, mid-June, mid-September, and mid-January, except in 2020 the first two quarters–so what would usually be mid-April and mid-June–have now been bumped back to that July 15th, 2020 annual tax due date. So, three types of tax stuff all due on the same day in 2020, but you got a little bit of a reprieve. So yeah, go ahead. It’s weird, right? It’s three–two–three–four months in length throughout the year. That’s why I also had trouble remembering this for like the first couple of years.

03:44 Lucy: The July has definitely been throwing me off because I’m used to June and now we’ve got July. So, when you get this money, how do you even make sure that you’ve got enough to pay per quarter? And do you want to do it all upfront, which you can totally do? Do you want to actually do it by quarter and hope that you remember? There’s a lot of ways to tackle it. You just need to find what works best.

Grad School Pay Frequency and Investment Goals

04:05 Emily: And so for you, are you being paid monthly? Or what is your pay frequency?

04:10 Lucy: We are paid on the last business day of the month. So, everything comes to me in one large lump sum. And that’s also slightly problematic, right? You need to be able to budget so that your entire month can be paid without overdoing it while waiting for that monthly paycheck to come in.

04:28 Emily: Yeah. Pay frequency is one of these really weird things about graduate school, where most people I think are once per month, but there are some people every two weeks or bi-monthly. And then there are some people on fellowship who receive an entire term’s worth of income two, three times a year. So, that’s a whole other sort of budgeting challenge. It’s nice that you get it up front, but it also causes problems. But that’s what I was wondering about when you mentioned paying the estimated tax. So, let’s talk a little bit more about estimate tax at the end of the interview and switch to talking about investing. So, when you started graduate school, what was your situation around investing? Was it a goal of yours, and were you able to do it?

05:06 Lucy: Yeah, so I moved here from an East Coast city. I’m now in the Midwest, and I love the East Coast, but it is not cheap. Just like the West Coast. And so, we pretty much didn’t have any disposable income. It was paycheck to paycheck. I was working both my lab tech job and a supplemental just to help kind of keep us afloat. And so when we moved here, the cost of living is a lot less. And so, we actually had a surplus after a certain bit of time. You know, after all the moving expenses when we paid those off. And the problem became, I always knew that I wanted to save for retirement and start savings, but I kind of didn’t know where to start. And in addition to that, I had never really had excess money before.

05:52 Lucy: And so a lot of money was escaping places that I didn’t really notice it was escaping. And that was kind of the big “Aha” moment for us was when we shifted. And I’m saying “we,” I live with my partner, we’ve been together for quite some time, was realizing that we had to make a decision. Do we want to go out to eat a bunch of times this month? Or do we want to have the retirement savings and the flexible savings accounts that will get us to the goals that we want, which is probably to move back to a coast, which again, not cheap. So, we need to do a lot of good saving while we’re here.

Retirement Investment: IRAs

06:33 Emily: So, was retirement investing in particular on your mind at that point?

06:38 Lucy: Yeah, so I had worked a number of jobs before coming to grad school. So, I had a 403(b), which is the nonprofit version of a 401(k), and I also had a Roth IRA from that same time. But when I became a graduate student in 2017, I knew that I couldn’t contribute with any of my stipend. So, I couldn’t do much other than build kind of the flexible savings that you keep within your bank account. And so, I knew I was just kind of in limbo and I was going to live there. And then in 2019, the SECURE Act was passed. And that changed the game for graduate students.

07:14 Emily: Yeah. Just to go back and explain that a little bit further because still a lot of people are kind of unaware of all these different laws and so forth. So, 2019 and prior, I think going back to like the eighties, the 1980s, what I referred to earlier, non-W2 fellowship income–so, any kind of fellowship training grant income that you get that’s not on a W2–at that point was not eligible to be contributed to an IRA. It was not considered taxable compensation or earned income. So, that was the situation until the SECURE Act passed. Not to say that everyone receiving that kind of income was totally unable to contribute because if you had a side hustle you could, if you were married to someone with taxable compensation you could, so there were some workarounds. But for plenty of people, it was just a hard “No.” If your stipend, your non-W2 fellowship stipend was your only income in the course of the calendar year, nope. An IRA was not an option for you. But pick up again, please with what the SECURE Act did.

How the SECURE Act Supports Grad Student and Postdoc Savings

08:06 Lucy: Yeah. So, the SECURE Act stands for Setting Every Community Up for Retirement Enhancement Act, which is great. I love that it ends on enhancement and then adds the Act back in. And what it says is that the term compensation shall include any amount, which is included in the individual’s gross income and paid to the individual to aid the individual in the pursuit of graduate or postdoctoral study. So, that meant that anything that I could claim as my gross individual income was now able to be used to be saved for retirement.

08:45 Emily: I think that was always a point of confusion prior to 2019, is that, wait, wait a second. My income as a graduate student is taxable? Like I have to pay income tax on this, and yet, I am not allowed to contribute to an IRA? It was very incongruous, hard for people to understand. It was there in black and white in the tax code. It was unambiguous, but it’s just a hard thing logically to come to grips with. So, it’s so great that the SECURE Act, which originally this Act was called the Graduate Student Savings Act, and then it was folded into the SECURE Act. I have a great podcast episode from last fall–two, actually–that I did on the SECURE Act’s passage. So, I’ll include those in the show notes in case you want to go back in time and listen to those. But yeah, end of the day, the great news is starting in 2020, people like you with only this type of non-W2 fellowship income, now you can contribute to an IRA again. So, have you been? How are the savings going?

09:37 Lucy: Yeah, great. We absolutely have started putting money into the Roth. It’s important to start early, right? In high school, we learned about compound interest and investing, and the earlier you start, the more you get out of it in the end. And so, when we talk about budgeting, we usually try to have around–I was taught about six months of your important and unmovable expenses, right? Your rent, your car, your car insurance, whatever else you may have that you know you have to spend monthly in a savings account. But then after that, there’s no point in continuing to build that up. That stuff should now move to retirement savings and kind of investment options. So, now we have automatic, biweekly–which is every two weeks because biweekly is a fun word–directly into the Roth IRA account for me and both my partner. And so, then I go in and I take those and I apply them directly to whichever funds I want to purchase with that.

Why Make Retirement Savings a Priority During Grad School?

10:38 Emily: Yeah. That’s awesome. Can you expand a little bit more about why it is important for you? Like why you have decided to make retirement savings a priority during graduate school? When, first of all, I mean, yeah, we need to acknowledge a lot of people can’t. You said that earlier. Some people are just plain not paid enough. That’s an unfortunate reality of some programs underpaying their students. But for the people who are able to, it might not necessarily be a goal. Maybe they want to do some other things with their money. So, can you expand a little bit more on why this early start is so important?

11:10 Lucy: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. It is definitely personal preference, right? Some people it’s just not on the radar and that’s alright if that’s what makes you feel comfortable. But for me, with the experience that I’ve had growing up and the experience that my partner’s family has had. I think it’s just so important to have that kind of a safety net for when retirement occurs. Both my parents are now retired. They go on trips whenever they feel like it because they have a really wonderful nest egg of savings and retirement funds that they can pull from at any time. And thankfully, they are very comfortable in that regard. And the earlier you start, like I said earlier, it compounds, right? So, every dollar that my Roth IRA makes, I have it reinvesting automatically. Because that’s just more money that gets to live there and build through the market value.

12:02 Emily: I, like you, worked only for one year before I started graduate school. And during that time, I embarked on learning about personal finance and I read this, “Oh, you have to save 10% of your gross income for retirement” rule. And I love rules. So, I was on it. It was challenging, but I was determined to do it. And I kept that up during graduate school. Thankfully, I, like you, also lived in sort of a moderate cost-of-living area and my stipend was fine for there. And so, obviously in more expensive places, as you were mentioning earlier, graduate student stipends don’t really get that much higher. So, it’s quite challenging there, but I was in a good position in that case. So, I was investing for retirement all through graduate school, as well as building up some other kinds of savings.

Investing in Your Future Positively Impacts Your Present

12:44 Emily: And I just have to make a plug for this in case anyone listening to this is not that motivated around it. Because what we found, my husband and I, who was also a graduate student at that time, not only is this like you’re saving and you’re investing for the far-off future, but it actually had an impact in the here and now. Well, after a few years after we really saw the balances building up, and that was actually during quite a strong, bold market. So, the compound returns were coming fast and furious. When we got out of graduate school, we had quite a good nest egg, both in our retirement accounts, and also in cash. And it actually enabled us to make more risky career decisions than we would have otherwise that were actually very well-suited for us. So, having that security of something that we had built during graduate school to be able to fall back on in case that risky decision didn’t turn out so well, that was instrumental in us actually making those decisions to go for our maximum career fulfillment, even at these riskier kinds of jobs. Obviously, I’m referring to my business, which is quite a risky endeavor, especially at the beginning. So, that’s kind of how I found that this mattered for me even decades earlier than I expected it to.

13:54 Lucy: Yeah, we have always known that we would like a house. And in order to have a house, you have to have a down payment. And in order to have a down payment, you have to have savings for it. Right? And there are certain rules surrounding specific savings or retirement accounts like Roth IRAs, where you can actually withdraw a certain portion for a first-time home purchase. So, there are absolutely benefits, and who doesn’t want to imagine being 70 and being like, “I’m just gonna fly to some beach and sit down and have a cocktail.” Right? That sounds really nice. It’s hard to imagine at this current time, but it is going to happen again.

14:34 Emily: True. We are recording this in May, 2020. Yes. Enough said there.

Commercial

14:43 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. The deadline for filing your federal tax return and making your quarters one and two estimated tax payments was extended to July 15th, 2020. I never expected to still be talking about taxes into the summer, but here we are. Postbac fellows, funded grad students, and postdoc fellows still need major help in this area because of their unique situation. I provide tons of support to PhD trainees preparing their tax returns and calculating their estimated tax. Go to pfforphds.com/tax to read my free articles and find out if one of my tax workshops is right for you. I have one workshop on how to prepare your annual tax return, and one on how to determine if you owe quarterly estimated tax. Both workshops include videos, supplemental documents, and live Q&A calls with me. Go to P F F O R P H D S.com/T A X. Don’t struggle through tax season on your own. Visit my website for the exact information you need in the most efficient form available. Now, back to the interview.

Strategies for Handling Estimated Tax

16:00 Emily: Okay. I want to return to the situation around estimated tax. If you wouldn’t mind explaining a little bit more about how, you know, you said earlier that your mileage may vary, people handle estimated tax in different ways. I’m curious, what is the best solution that you’ve come to for handling your estimated tax?

16:18 Lucy: Yeah, I was kind of pseudo-mentored by another graduate student, and he was always on this camp that he would save up four or five thousand dollars and pay his entire year’s estimated tax in January of the start of that year. And he would send in four different checks, one with each estimated tax document. And that would be it for the entire year. Now, at the time that he was trying to convince me of that, we did not have that kind of money. And so then I had to find some other way. And of course, I have an old checking account from when I was in high school. And so, what I decided to do was I calculated my estimated tax. Those forms look scary. They’re not that bad. Talk to somebody, talk to your friends, somebody knows how to do it. And once I had kind of figured out my estimated tax, I said, “Okay, well, this divided by four is, let’s say $400. And a quarter of the year is three months. Right? Okay. So, now I have $400, divided by three is, whatever. I can’t do math on the fly like this, but that amount would automatically withdraw to that separate checking account that I didn’t really use for anything. And then at the end of three months, when it was time to pay quarterly taxes, I knew I had that amount and I was not worried about it. Right? I never even saw it in my regular checking. It only we went to that secondary checking account.

17:38 Emily: Yeah. This system that you’re describing is absolutely the one that I recommend. Actually, I featured it in a past interview as well, which I’ll link from the show notes. The interview is with Lourdes Bobbio, and she is an NDSEG fellow. And so, this is exactly what she did to handle her estimated tax. It’s what I did in graduate school as well, and still do, because as a business owner, I also pay quarterly estimated tax. So, I think it’s a perfect system. It’s actually the one that I kind of recommend for everyone. Like you said, to pay all of your estimated tax upfront is a really high amount of savings to have on hand which would be unusual. So, that’s not for everyone.

PF for PhDs Resources on Estimated Tax

18:20 Emily: By the way, I do have a resource on estimated tax. I have a couple, so I’ll link them from the show notes, but if you also just want to go to pfforphds.com/tax, I have an article there called, “The Complete Guide to Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients,” free article. And I also have a paid workshop. You can join anytime throughout the year. And I have videos that I’ve recorded. There’s like a spreadsheet that is included with that. And I also do live Q&A calls every quarter to answer any kind of final questions you have after you’ve gone through the material. So, that would be a great one to join if estimated tax is a concern for you.

18:53 Emily: As you said, Lucy, look at form 1040-ES if you think you can handle it, fine. It’s really not that hard for fellowship recipients, but I do know some people get a little intimidated. They want that live support. So, like you said, you know, you can turn to–I really hesitate, actually, to say to turn to a friend, because this is an area that people mess up a lot. It sounds like you got really good counsel, but you never know. You don’t know what you don’t know. Right? And so you don’t know if counsel that you’re receiving is good or not. So, I’ll just say, come to me, come to my site. I have the references for you. Yes, listen to your classmates, but trust, but verify. Let me put it that way. When it comes to tax and rumors running around graduate schools.

19:34 Lucy: Yeah. We just recently were talking about taxes with some of our upcoming, or now upcoming second years, asking them how they did and what they felt like, and how we can support them in the future. And they were like, “Oh my God, estimated taxes.” And then it was just like a flurry of papers and pens. And imagine that kind of cartoony instance. And it ended up half of them just decided they weren’t going to pay it because they weren’t sure what to do. And then two of them overpaid by $2,000, which I’m not really sure how that’s possible on our current stipend. Because I think we pay less than $5,000 a year. So, I’m not sure what they were doing for that one quarter, but they totally miscalculated, which is perfectly fine. But that is when finding a resource like Emily might be really helpful if you just don’t want to worry about it. You can go to her. I mean, I’ve never used Emily. I’m sure she’s great. But she seems to know what she’s talking about. And so, if you just don’t want to worry about it, if you pay a little bit upfront, you don’t have to worry long term.

Use Your School’s Tax Resources or Bring in an Outside Expert

20:34 Emily: Yeah. And I also love, you know, you mentioned before we started the recording that your university of WashU is providing–and in particular, your program is providing tax support in the form of workshops, which is amazing. Anyone who’s in a program in a school that does that, I definitely encourage you to attend one of those seminars. If no one is doing it and you feel competent, you can always try to start it doing some peer support in that area. And hey, I am also available and I have a live seminar that’s sort of a live version of the tax workshop that I just mentioned. So, if you want to bring in an outside person and you have a budget, I am available to do that. Because this is such, I mean, this is an area that, I cannot tell you the number of people I talk to every tax season who have maybe been surprised by, “Oh, it’s April and turns out I owe all this tax that I thought was being withheld from my paycheck, but it turns out it wasn’t,” that’s a really tough situation to be in.

21:28 Emily: I’ve talked to people who have gone three, four, five years of that happening and just wake up to the fact that they have all these back taxes. That is so tough. And you know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of care. So, we can just say again, if you’re on fellowship, if you’re on a training grant, look into estimated tax, it’s possible, you won’t have to pay them in your first year. Don’t forget about them. Look again in the second year, it could come up at that point. So, please tell your friends. Tell your friends about estimated tax. Send them this podcast episode. And as I was just saying, look for resources at your university. They may be there, or you may be able to start them or bring them in.

22:03 Lucy: And even if they don’t have them, you can let them know that it’s something that the students are interested in. Right? So, I’m the co-director of a student body group, and that’s what we do. We think students need this, so we advocate for that with the administration. And unless they know, they’re not going to be thinking about kind of dealing with this type of stuff.

Any Other Financial Goals?

22:25 Emily: Yeah. I think actually taxes at the graduate student level got a lot more attention after the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act passed because there were those couple months where we thought maybe tuition waivers would be taxed, so anyway, it got a lot of attention. I think after the Act ultimately passed, which thankfully did not have that provision in it, people were just a little bit more aware like, “Oh, okay, I have to deal with taxes. Maybe there are some resources out there that can help.” So, going back to your personal story Lucy, aside from the retirement investing, which is incredible and awesome that you’re doing that, you mentioned saving up for a house. Do you have any other financial goals that you’re going to be working on for the remainder of graduate school?

23:04 Lucy: I mean, really, it’s trying to find that financial stability that we couldn’t find while we lived on the East Coast. So, we were building that initial six-month-ish nest egg that you might want to refer to it as. Now, that’s done. So, we’ve shifted to building kind of the large expense nest egg, right? Like, the next time we have to buy a car, if our fridge breaks, right? Those things that you never want to have to think about, but they absolutely exist within life. And at the same time, we also obviously are working to pay off student loans. And we are working to invest in retirement. It seems like that’s not really feasible, and I’ll be completely honest, I put $50 in every week to that large expense. That’s not a lot, but assuming, and this is all assuming I don’t have a large expense for a couple of years, I’m going to have plenty of money in that.

Even a Little Bit (of Savings) Matters

23:58 Lucy: So, even a little bit matters. You might think $20 doesn’t matter to a Roth IRA, but it does build up. Slow and steady, it builds up. Can you imagine $20 every week over the course of however long your PhD is? I don’t want to say a number because it jinxes us all, but it’s really important to start kind of building these ideas because you don’t want to be caught out in the rain.

24:19 Emily: It sounds like you really have been able to accomplish a lot with the stipend. And I think your experience of moving from a higher cost of living area to St. Louis is really helpful in that way. Unfortunately, a lot of students go the other way and they end up in Boston, New York, San Francisco from a less expensive place. And it’s jarring that way, too. So, you put in your time in the higher cost of living cities and then experienced a bit of relief moving to St. Louis. That’s really great. And you know, I totally agree that even these small amounts of money make a huge difference given enough time. And as you were saying, the PhD is actually pretty significant amount of time. Over the course of five plus years, it can really add up, like it did for me and my husband. And so, anyway, I’m just really pleased to hear that you’re making your stipend work for you so effectively. That’s wonderful.

Best Advice for an Early-Career PhD

25:10 Emily: So, as we’re finishing up the interview, this is a question that I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what is your best financial advice for another early-career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve mentioned in the course of the interview, or it could be something completely else.

25:23 Lucy: Yeah. I have to fully admit it’s an allowance. Like, I’m over 30 and I have an allowance. When we finally had kind of spare money, every month I would go on and get a graph at the top of my bank account that shows me my personal value and it would stay flat. And I’m like, “What are we spending our money on? This doesn’t make any sense. Okay, I bought this. Okay, I bought that. But it’s really not that bad.” So, we decided to implement an allowance. We’re two over 30-year-olds with an allowance. I mean, I can’t say that enough. And what we figured out was, “Do I really want to spend the money on this, right? Is this really what’s going to make me happy where I can’t necessarily save for retirement?” Which again is my goal. “Is this a thing that I need?” And it really showed us where our money was going, which was just little knickknacks and doodads. And after a year of that allowance, our personal value went up by like $3,000 because we weren’t accidentally spending $500 a month on whatever we felt like. And so, I recommend it. It’s hard and weird to say, but I recommend allowances. It keeps you a little bit honest about it. We have a post-it note on our fridge and we have to write everything we purchase that is for us specifically and not household.

Give Yourself an Allowance for Discretionary Funding

26:48 Emily: So, I want to make sure that I understand what you mean by allowance. So, what you’re saying is like, aside from the necessary expenses, and as you were just mentioning household joint expenses, allowance is, it sounds like something that is just for you as an individual. And it’s probably discretionary, is that right? And as long as you fit it within your allowance every month, or maybe you build up a balance over some time, as long as the purchase fits within that, you’re good to go. If not, you have to say, “Well, I need to wait on it.” Is that right?

27:16 Lucy: Right. Exactly. So, you know, let’s say you’re going to a conference and you need a new suit jacket. That does not count as an allowance. That’s something that’s important for your personal development. Let’s say there’s a really cute dress that has just come out from your favorite company. That is not something that’s related to household or even professional development. So, that’s probably going to go on allowance. I just spent actually the last of my allowance already on a gift for a friend for her birthday. I knew it was something I wanted to do. And so, that was in my budget for the month, or my allowance for the month.

27:55 Emily: Yeah. So, it’s kind of just another way of framing budgeting. Like it’s just a more like catch-all category and you’ve specified it just for you as an individual. I know you’ve mentioned your partner. I mentioned my husband. Like the whole couple money management thing, people do it a lot of different ways. And you really have to find what works for you. I know my experience in graduate school, my husband and I were both graduate students and didn’t have a lot of discretionary income. And so, we didn’t use the allowance system, but it was kind of because there wasn’t that much money left for an allowance after we were doing all of the goals and all the joint spending. So, thankfully we found a way to navigate that over time. But yeah, I think if we had had a little bit more discretionary income, having some autonomy over that money because we do keep joint finances, but having some autonomy over a portion of it, that’s a system that works very, very well for a lot of people. So, I’m really glad you brought it up. Well, Lucy, this has been just a delight and I’m so glad that you came on the podcast. And I hope to have a chance to meet you in person before too long. Because it sounds like you’re doing some incredible work there with your program at WashU. So, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story and sharing your expertise in this area.

29:03 Lucy: Thank you for having me. It’s such an important component of life and graduate school for those that are interested. And I appreciate that you exist and you’ve been thinking about this and building things around it because it didn’t really seem like it existed when I first started.

29:19 Emily: Sounds good. Thank you so much.

29:21 Lucy: Thanks, Emily.

Outtro

29:23 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode. Pfforphds.com/podcast is the hub for the Personal Finance for PhDs podcast. There, you can find links to all the episode show notes, and a form to volunteer to be interviewed. I’d love for you to check it out and get involved. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please consider joining my mailing list for my behind-the-scenes commentary about each episode. Register at pfforphds.com/subscribe. See you in the next episode! And remember, you don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance, but it helps The music is Stages of Awakening by Podington Bear from the free music archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing and show notes creation by Meryem Ok.