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This Grad Student Took Control of Her Finances to Shift Her Income Sources

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In this episode, Emily interviews Fern Wolburg Martinez, a 4th-year PhD student in Industrial/Organizational Psychology at Portland State University. Fern shares the pros and cons of the various income sources she’s used for her graduate work: a teaching assistantship, a fellowship, student loans, side jobs, and social safety net programs. When Fern was offered a fellowship, she realized she would no longer be eligible to take out student loans and had to decline it. Fern subsequently worked on her spending and budgeting to put herself in a position to accept the fellowship and increase her income later on. Finally, Fern and Emily discuss how you can employ a researcher’s skills and mindset in the personal finance arena.

Links mentioned in the Episode

This Grad Student Took Control of Her Finances to Shift Her Income Sources

Teaser

Fern (00:00): No idea where my money was going, how much money I was spending, and how, what my stable fixed expenses looked like every month. And then finally what my advisor offered the fellowship and she’s like, Hey, you should go on this fellowship. I was like, oh, I don’t know. I can’t do student loans. I have to look into it, so maybe I can afford it, but I’m not sure. So this is where the scientist mindset came in. It’s like, okay, I need objective data to look at my situation and make an informed decision.

Introduction

Emily (00:36): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:05): This is Season 17, Episode 8, and today my guest is Fern Wolburg Martinez, a 4th-year PhD student in Industrial/Organizational Psychology at Portland State. Fern shares the pros and cons of the various income sources she’s used for her graduate work: a teaching assistantship, a fellowship, student loans, side jobs, and social safety net programs. When Fern was offered a fellowship, she realized she would no longer be eligible to take out student loans and had to decline it. Fern subsequently worked on her spending and budgeting to put herself in a position to accept the fellowship and increase her income later on. Finally, Fern and I discuss how you can employ a researcher’s skills and mindset in the personal finance arena.

Emily (01:51): If you’re listening to this episode on the day it drops, you know that it is Tax Day! I hope that you have already submitted your 2023 tax return, paid your 2023 tax bill, and made your 2024 quarter 1 estimated tax payment for your fellowship, if required. However, there have been many years in which I was still working on any or all of those elements right up to and even past the deadline. If you’re in that position and need additional resources on taxes tailored to the graduate student, postdoc, or postbac experience, join one of my asynchronous tax workshops to immediately access my best teaching on these topics. Go to PFforPhDs.com/tax/ and scroll to the bottom of the page to learn more about the tax return preparation workshop and the estimated tax workshop. Best of luck to you in these final hours of tax season! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e8/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Fern Wolburg Martinez.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:10): I am delighted how joining me on the podcast today, Fern Wolburg Martinez. She’s a current graduate student at Portland State in industrial organizational psychology. And we are going to talk about how Fern has funded her graduate program, both, you know, through the graduate program, through side hustles. Um, we’re also gonna talk about budgeting and just really get into the numbers today of like what a current graduate student is, um, is making and spending. So, Fern, I’m so delighted to have you on. Thank you so much for volunteering to come on and be open about this subject. And would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the listeners?

Fern (03:41): Yeah, thank you, Emily. So, like you mentioned, I’m Fernanda, I go by Fern and I am currently in my fourth year of my graduate program preparing for my comprehensive exams. And my expertise is on occupational health psychology. Specifically, I explore how sexual harassment and customer sexual harassment affects the wellbeing of employees.

PhD Program Funding and Stipend Advocacy Efforts

Emily (04:03): Okay, thank you so much. Can you tell us about how your program has been funded to date?

Fern (04:09): Yeah, so the nice thing about my program is just a master’s to PhD program and it’s fully funded if you get accepted. So they cover tuition, everything. And it was an interesting trajectory because we had a stipend that was very low. It was like after taxes, it was about a thousand a month. And then the students really advocated for more because that’s barely covers rent in Portland. Portland’s a pretty expensive city. And then they raised the stipend by almost like 200%. So after taxes, it ended up being like $2,000. Um, and that’s just for the graduate teaching assistantships. And we also have a, an amazing funding program from the National Institute of Health, which is under the CDC, which is an OHP or occupational health psychology type of training where they give a fellowship to up to three to four students per year. And you can have it for two years. And that’s what I’m currently on, and that one is not taxed. And it’s about like 2,400 a month.

Emily (05:14): Okay. I wanna hear more about this advocacy process. It doesn’t sound like, was there an official union going on or was it just like, Nope, we’re all just talking together and saying you have to pay us more. This is unsustainable.

Fern (05:25): Yeah, so I cannot take full credit for that. Not even partial credit because I have to say it’s when I started the program, it’s kind of like, oh, I’m so excited to have a PhD and join this program and I don’t care how much money it is. And then I face the realities of actually having to live on that stipend and take out student loans. And the stress comes with that because grad student loans are different from undergrad student loans with the interest and the plus loans. Um, so I was just dealing with it and I was like, this is fine. This is the way it is. And stressfully. And, but thankfully I was, uh, I started during covid, so I was still living at home in Arizona at this time, so I could still save on rent, but it was still nothing. Right. Um, and it’s not until the cohort after me that the program really focused on diversifying our population of students.

Fern (06:14): And these students from different backgrounds were all about fighting for themselves and for the collective wellbeing. And they were like, this is not a livable stipend and if you wanna be a diverse and competitive program, you need to do something about it. So they really insisted with the faculty. And we do have a union, but the union, you know, the students can barely afford to pay for the rent. So like, nevermind paying for a union due. Right. Um, so they didn’t go through the union. It was more like the psychology department students from that specific cohort just really advocated with the faculty. And then the faculty were also really amazing at being receptive about it and talking to the dean about it. And I’m not sure how they moved the funds around, but they were able to increase the stipend for everybody.

Emily (07:00): Wow. Love to hear that success story especially.

Fern (07:03): Yeah. Shout out to them.

Emily (07:04): I mean, the union as like approach is certainly powerful, but it’s, but it’s slow and it’s, um, it’s onerous. And so this sounds like kind of a quicker if if the faculty and so forth, everybody is, um, amenable to it. This is kind of like a quicker route. So I’m so glad to hear that story of how that cohort after you, um, helped themselves and everybody else by just talking about this. And it’s, I mean, a thousand dollars a month is just ridiculous for an amount of stipend to try to live on that. Okay. So it sounds like you had been on a teaching assistantship at first, is that right? For at least a couple years,

Fern (07:36): Yes, for the first three years.

Emily (07:38): Okay. So for three years on a teaching assistantship, now you’re on this fellowship  through the federal funding kind of route. Can you tell us, um, in terms of your experience as a graduate student, what the advantages or the pros and cons were for each of these different, um, types of funding?

Fern (07:54): Yeah, so the teaching assistantship, it’s like a regular W2 job. So you, your taxes are taken out, you don’t have to worry about that. You get the same money at the same time every month. It’s less money though. So it’s about, oh my God, what’s the difference? Like $500 less, probably more in comparison to the fellowship. Um, but the good, the biggest pro about that, besides the fact that they give you the W2 and the taxes, is that you can take out student loans with that. So with having the teaching assistantship, I was also able to qualify for loans and then like my teaching assistantship would pay for rent and some credit card bills or whatever else I had to pay. And then I would use the student loans to pay for, like, if I wanted to visit my family, if I have to travel to conferences, if I have to buy food, if I want to go eat up food with my friends, everything else was covered by the loans.

Fern (08:51): And then the pro of the fellowship is the time flexibility, because I’m just doing research. I don’t have to do a teaching assistantship. And sometimes, uh, just working with professors and instructors can be a great experience and sometimes not such a great experience, and you never know who you’re gonna get and if it’s gonna be a more stressful term in comparison to the previous one. So having the time flexibility to do research on my own time and work on my own projects and get paid for that is amazing. It’s also more money, but the cons is, it’s, um, it’s weirdly coded this grant, I think there’s only like three universities in the, in the United States that have this type of fellowship. And it’s coded so that it counts the tuition reimbursement as part of the fellowship that we receive. So it counts as salary. So we no longer qualify for loans because we’re making too much money.

Fern (09:44): So beyond our monthly stipend, that tuition money was also, it also looked like from the tax perspective, from the, uh, government’s perspective, that that money goes to us instead of it going to the university for tuition. So I no longer qualify for student loans at the moment. So that’s why I waited my three years until I was at a place where I had like, I could afford rent and I had paid off all my debt so that I could actually take out this fellowship and not have to rely on student loans, which was always my goal to only take out loans for two to three years, and then not for the last two years of my program.

Emily (10:17): I see. So it sounds like you actually had a degree of agency over when you had one position versus another, so you could kind of coordinate that with your personal finances. Um, I haven’t heard of that before. I, I guess I’m more accustomed to people like sort of being, um, the timing of fellowships happening just based on like your timing in your program or something like that, or like when you happen to win it. Um, but that sounds really, really smart that you worked on your personal finances while you had access to those loans. Um, before switching over, I’m a little surprised to hear that you don’t have access to loans anymore, but I don’t know.

Fern (10:50): Yeah.

Emily (10:50): I don’t know all the details about it, so.

Fern (10:52): It’s so weird.

Emily (10:52): I’m sure you’ve been through the technical specifications.

Fern (10:54): Yeah, it was, it was a whole thing because I actually got it offered my second year and I said, yeah, I’ll take it. And then I found out, they didn’t let me know it was miscommunication. I found out that I couldn’t qualify for loans anymore and I had to tell my advisor like, Hey, I, I didn’t know about this and I can no longer afford anything if I can’t take a loan. So they had to switch me back to being a TA ship. So after that I was like, okay, next time I, if I do switch back to a fellowship, I wanna be more conscious and in a good place where I can actually take advantage of that.

Emily (11:24): Hmm. Yeah, I think the generalizable like, you know, lesson here for the audience is just to be really, um, heavily consider how these different types of funding are going to affect your personal finances. Whether it’s, you know, the tax implications, whether it’s the student loan implications, whether it’s the increasing amount of take home income, decreased amount of take home income, and just as, as best you’re able to, like you did, um, exert, you know, agency in this process and or prepare on the personal finance side for the changes that are upcoming so that you’re not caught. I mean, what would you have done, like if you had to, had to accept this fellowship? Couldn’t afford everything, couldn’t take out student loans? Well, we’re gonna talk more about how you’ve like, um, made the budget balance. Um, in a moment. But yeah, it would’ve been a harder financial position for sure.

Fern (12:08): Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s very important for people who are in grad school and are considering one versus the other to look into, like you said, taxes, student loans, and just asking all the questions to their advisor regarding these things. I think that, uh, supervisor support is very important if you have a supervisor who’s transparent about the process and helping you to the best of their capabilities on everything that entails going into a fellowship versus having a regular, uh, teaching assistantship, um, with all that stuff.

Side Jobs During the PhD Program

Emily (12:38): Yeah. Um, did you also have a side job at any point during these four years?

Fern (12:45): Yeah, I worked my first two years and, you know, as I was like in college I had two jobs and I was going to the gym at five in the morning and it’s like, yeah. But I was also 18, 20 years old. It’s very different, uh, than going to grad school. Grad school is a different beast. So I had a job for the first two years I was working in the restaurant industry, which is what inspired my thesis topic. And it was really stressful because, you know, I don’t know if you remember what your first two years were like, but it would take me four hours to read like a 20 page article because the content is so dense and so difficult and so different from just a textbook. So I was spending my time with the four hours, uh, classes per week and two classes, uh, for every week.

Fern (13:33): And then also on top of that, reading the articles. And then on the weekends I was working. So I was just exhausted all the time. I was burnt out. It, yeah. I wasn’t great for my health, so I decided on my second year to quit. And then on my third year, again, before I moved to Portland, I decided to get a job to be able to afford to move to Portland. So I started working back in the restaurant industry. So a lot of respect for restaurant employees because that industry’s always there when we need it, but it’s definitely a sacrifice. The quality of my work and the quality of my health did decline, but it’s also a trade off of then I can have more money that is not, that I don’t have to give back to the government.

Emily (14:16): Hmm. Yeah, I mean, because you were, you had the stipend, you had the student loan, um, kind of bridge coming in and you had the side work. You really had to find that balance among all three of those things in which funding source is most appropriate and how much energy would you have to use and so forth. So, um, that’s really tricky. And since you’ve switched over to the fellowship, it sounds like you haven’t been working on the side, right? With the higher income?

Fern (14:40): No, I did hold a, so this was another opportunity that just came to me and follow my lab. This student recently graduated and her and I just had a really good working relationship and worked on a lot of projects together. So she really liked my work ethic, so she recommended me to do a summer internship that she had to turn down and that worked great for me. So I was doing analysis for the university factor analysis where they wanted to reduce the items in a course evaluation scale. And that was awesome because I was able to make a couple extra, like 2000 that month or that summer. Uh, so opportunities like that arise as I progress through the program and I become more skilled. Like now I’m at the point that with my master’s I can get an internship and that’s a lot more money than any part-time job can give me. Right. Um, so opportunities come and go. And also it’s just every year is different and just have to adapt and find ways to make the finances work.

Using SNAP (Food Stamps) During the PhD Program

Emily (15:35): Yeah, I like that you pointed that out. Like as you progress in your program, you become more skilled, you become more knowledgeable, there are different opportunities that come up for you. I’m like, you, you’ve probably heard me say on the podcast before, but I’m like a big advocate of people, um, being paid a high hourly rate as much as they can. And that probably means employing your unique skills that you’re developing inside of academia, maybe inside of academia, maybe outside of academia. So in addition to the stipend from the assistantship and the fellowship in addition to the student loans for some time, in addition to the side work, I understand that you also relied on government programs for a period of time. Can you tell us more about the types of programs that you accessed and what they did for you?

Fern (16:14): Yes. So I need to give credit again to the cohort that came after me because I was like, oh, I’m just stuck in this. And some people mentioned food stamps, but I went into the snap and SNAP is, I don’t know what it stands for, but it’s the Food Stamps Assistance program. And they said that graduate students didn’t qualify and I didn’t look further into it. I was like, okay, I just don’t qualify. Undergrads do, but graduates don’t for whatever reason. And then the cohort after me said, yeah, you do qualify. I’m on it. And I had never been on food stamps before and I also had this perception that food stamps was for people that were very low income and really needed it and were like below the poverty level. And I was, I’m a grad student so I can still rely on my parents if I need to.

Fern (16:56): So I just didn’t see myself in that realm. But if anything, once they told me that they were on it and I could apply for it, and I applied and I got it and I got an extra $200 a month to be able to pay for groceries, it was great. And it just gave me a lot of independence and freedom and just a lot of relief for my expenses because sometimes if I have to pay for conferences and I have to pay my bills and everything else, then I would just buy less food. And with the food stamps it’s like, oh, now I can afford it. And also relying on the food pantry at my university. And a lot of us got on food stamps. And what’s also great about this program is that at, at least in Portland, they’re very supportive of the arts.

Fern (17:38): So if you show your EBT card, which is how you pay for the food stamps, I a lot, I thought it was actual stamps, it’s not actual stamps. It’s like they give you like a little debit card and they refill it every month with X amount of dollars that they give you every month. And like it never expires until you no longer qualify for the program. But if you show your EBT card, then you can also get $5 entries to like museums and opera concerts and ballet concerts. So it’s great also for that experience if you also can’t afford hobbies and to get out there and have um, things to do, it also brings that option on the table.

Emily (18:12): Um, so I wanna follow up on two pieces to that for the first is the mindset. Um, this is not for people like me. But you mentioned you were making a thousand dollars a month. Yeah. Like that’s not a lot of money in an expensive city. Yeah. As you mentioned. So like, I, I’m glad that you brought up like the fluctuating expenses too, because you might think in a given month, I don’t have any problems paying for food this month. So I don’t need this program. But then the next month you have an unexpected expense that comes up. And like you said, the food is like the variable thing that can get sacrificed that month and it’s just not a position that you want to be in. It’s better to be precautionary, take all the benefits that you’re eligible for, um, use them to the fullest extent, and then have more reserves to be able to build up for those unexpected, um, expenses that might come up. So I’m really glad that you mentioned this and that and that you did take advantage. I want to learn more about, okay. You initially read grad students weren’t eligible, then you found out that you were, what, what changed? What was the difference?

Fern (19:07): I don’t know. I didn’t ask. I just, I just applied. I told them how much I made and they said yes. I, I don’t know if it’s one of those things where it’s like, we’re gonna look the other way. Um, it’s just graduate students are in this unique position where we’re students, but we’re employees and the taxes are different. And like, I’m not poor, but I’m below the poverty line, but I have an iPhone. So it’s really weird mindset and like thing to get into. And also this, like, I don’t wanna take resources from the people that really need it, but also I qualify for these resources. So it’s this like weird situation that I had to just get over and be like, just apply if they say no, no. Which eventually they did say no once I got my fellowship and I now I make too much money for them.

Fern (19:55): Um, but yeah, I think it’s important that if there’s resources out there, if it’s food stamps and this and that, I was like, oh my God, I can’t believe I’m gonna be on food stamps. And I was like, no, this is great. I love ’em. I can go to $5 Chinese gardens and explore. It’s something that otherwise I wouldn’t be able to afford because it’s too expensive and I can afford food, which is great, and I don’t have to stress out about buying that. And it’s nice because it’s an allocated amount of money that’s specific for groceries. I cannot go and spend it on anything else. So yeah, I, I don’t know what was different in the application process. The website says that I shouldn’t have qualified, but I did qualify. So worked out for me.

Emily (20:34): I like that approach of just like, make them tell you no. Just, just apply, just push if they say no. Okay. You weren’t any worse off than you were beforehand, but hey, they said yes. And like again, credit to that cohort behind you for like experimenting with this and just pushing for it and helping everybody by, you know, sharing what they found out.

Fern (20:54): Yeah, definitely. They’re, they helped change my mindset and they’re helping change the program for the better.

Using Medicaid for Health Insurance During the PhD Program

Emily (21:00): I love it. Okay. So were there any other public benefits that you’ve been taking advantage of?

Fern (21:05): Yeah, the, I can’t remember the difference between Medicare and Medicaid, but I’m on that and that’s for health insurance. Portland State University has mandatory health insurance, so this is crazy. One thing that I don’t like about my university is that if you don’t have health insurance, they automatically enroll you in the university’s health insurance, which is very expensive. It’s like 300 a month. And that’s a little ridiculous to me because if you can’t afford to have health insurance, then they get you on their expensive health insurance. And yeah, it’s, it’s weird. I appreciate the aspect of wanting to keep the overall community healthy, but at the same time as employees wouldn’t qualify for health insurance from the university whereas other universities do. So I, uh, decided to apply for the, uh, Obamacare and again, I qualified for that and I have it and it’s in Oregon. It’s actually great. It’s a, it’s completely free for me and I have a really great doctors and a really good network of doctors. I was able to go to the dentist after like five years of not being able to afford it. So another great benefit to use.

Emily (22:12): Yeah, absolutely. I mean it’s so common. All universities require that their students have health insurance. Um, it’s unfortunate. It sounds like their internal option is, is unaffordable, like you said for the students, but, um, it’s so great. Obviously this is a very state by state thing, but great that Oregon has a robust exchange and with your income and everything you were able to qualify at that, um, it sounds like zero premium, right? Yeah. So that’s immediate. Yeah. And another great thing to look into.

Fern (22:38): Yeah. And it’s like above a percentage of the poverty level. So you can be, I think 200% above the poverty level and still qualify in Oregon, but it varies by state.

Commercial

Emily (22:49): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Changes to Budgeting Throughout Graduate School

Emily (23:41): Now you mentioned to me that the way you budget has changed throughout graduate school. We’ve already seen some hints of that in the changing of the funding and the different, you know, sources of income and so forth. But can you tell us about how you used to budget and then how you budget now?

Fern (23:55): Yeah, so the simple storyline is that I didn’t budget. I was just have my money and spend it and not know where it went. And I would get my, uh, student loans and I would put half of them ’cause I get them per term. So every three months. Um, so I would put half of them on my savings accounts. That was not a high yield savings account, so they was just sitting there doing nothing. And then I would just keep the rest of my, uh, checking accounts and just hope that the number didn’t get to, to zero. So try to keep it as high as possible, but no idea where my money was going, how much money I was spending, and how what my stable fixed expenses looked like every month. And then finally what my advisor offered the fellowship and she’s like, Hey, you should go on this fellowship.

Fern (24:42): I was like, oh, I don’t know. I can’t do student loans. I have to look into it. And at the time I had moved in with my partner and I was like, well, my rent is about to be cheaper. My, I have, I’m on food stamps, so my groceries about to be cheaper, so maybe I can afford it, but I’m not sure. So this is where the scientists mindset came in. It’s like, okay, I need objective data to look at my situation and make an informed decision. So that’s when I had a breakdown for what I first did is track my expenses for a month. And that’s when I realized like, oh, I go to the grocery, like I buy little snacks here and there way too much and I’m spending too much at the bars and why am I buying shoes that I can’t afford?

Fern (25:19): And that was like a wake up call for me. So then I decided to look at my fixed expenses and see what that looks like and see if I had any money left over for me to have a decent living because again, I couldn’t take out student loans and I didn’t wanna take on an extra job to protect my wellbeing and my mental health. So if my remaining balance after all my fixed expenses was something like a hundred, that’s just not realistic. That’s just not enough. Especially right now with inflation, everything’s very expensive. So if there was an emergency, anything, I wouldn’t have been able to do it. So it’s like, okay, first thing I need to do is set up my emergency savings. And then I started learning about finances and I was like, okay, I need a high yield savings account so that the money that I have extra is not just sitting there. It’s actually like accumulating interest. And I started doing that and now I know exactly how much I spend on what each month. I know how much I have left over each month. And it’s, yeah, it’s a really good feeling.

Emily (26:16): I’m, I’m so glad to hear about that positive kind of transformation. Um, it sounds like your income source is changing is what really prompted you. You knew you weren’t gonna have that cushion of the student loans, so like you had to get more granular about what was going on in your finances.

Fern (26:30): I’ve always been pretty good at not spending and saving, but now I wanna take it to the next step and make my money work for me. So investing in a a retirement account and knowing what I’m spending on and being more essential with like my buckets of money of like skincare makes me really happy. So I wanna spend more on that and I don’t wanna eat out as much, so I’m cooking a lot more now. So I wanna be a lot smarter with my money beyond just saving and not spending.

Using a Researcher Mindset With Personal Finances

Emily (26:56): Now you mentioned earlier kind of taking, um, the, the researcher’s approach actually looking at the data, um, to figure out where your spending was going and what you would, you really started budgeting, like what were you going to be able to afford? Were you going to be able afford to switch onto this fellowship given the new rent, given all the other changes that were going on? Um, are there any other ways that you’ve employed this like researcher mindset within your personal finances? Aside from setting up the budget?

Fern (27:21): I mean beyond finding you and your account. You know, ’cause my, my friend Morgan always says this to me every time I’m like, oh, I need to do something really hard. And she’s like, you’re getting a PhD, you can do anything. It’s like, you’re right. Like I know how to investigate, I know how to learn. I need to start doing that. So I remember I wanted to get more broad skill sets with data analysis and I was like, well, Excel is always required, so I’m gonna learn how to use Excel. So I’m gonna use a nice spreadsheet as an excuse to learn Excel. And my excuse to do that is gonna be by budgeting. So I have this like really fancy spreadsheet that has formulas that are connected through different tabs and different cells. And I really learned how to use Excel for my advantage and use, uh, data visualization to look like my most expense categories.

Fern (28:09): And I have different percentages for everything. And it’s, yeah. And with that is just learning how to use Excel. So looking at tutorials and then actually doing the work, which is a lot of what we have to do as PhDs when our advisors don’t know how to use something in SPSS and no one else knows how to do it. And you just have to learn how to use an SPSS macro yourself. Um, and then learning the lingo. So like, okay, if I wanna go beyond saving and uh, start investing, what does that look like and what does that mean? And where does it start looking at the experts? Kind of like when you’re doing a lit review and you just have no idea what the topic is about. So you have to read a bunch of articles until you get an like a, an an understanding of what that topic is.

Fern (28:53): It’s the same skill sets can be applied to budgeting and knowing where your money goes and then just implementing that behavioral change. Whenever we write our research articles, and at least in psychology, we always try to make practical recommendations of what organizations can do with the research findings that we have. It’s like, okay, how can we expect other people to follow these behaviors that we’re suggesting to do if we can’t follow the own behaviors that we are learning from budgeting and all these other behavioral things. ’cause also saving money and spending money is very psychological, right? So just the same skills that we learn on research can be applied to anything in particular right now talking about budgeting.

Emily (29:37): I love it. I love the way you articulated that and that mindset and kind of going back to the beginning of what you said, like where your friend Morgan has been telling you. Um, I totally agree and I never like felt so, um, accomplished or like expansive in my person as I did like right after I defended, like I literally felt like I was like on top of a mountain. Like I can do, I finished the, like I finished my dissertation, I defended it, it’s done. I literally can do anything I put my mind to. And even though personal finances are challenging in psychological ways and logistical ways and all that, um, like you said, when you take, I mean all, everyone who gets into a PhD program is so capable and so talented and so smart. And like if you just decide to apply what you card kind of already innately can do in these other areas of your life to your personal finances, like you’re going to be successful. It’s just a matter of time. Yeah. It’s a matter of time and a matter of increasing that income eventually when you get out of graduate school. So eventually. Um, I just love that approach.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (30:32): Well Fern, would you like to wrap up now by telling us your best financial advice for another early career of PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Fern (30:43): Advice. Oh my God, I don’t know if I have any advice. I just feel like advice is so like personal individualized, but I have like a thought that just occurred to me both with what you were saying is that a lot of new PhDs have this huge, especially underrepresented PhDs, you know, women, women of color or people from like low socioeconomic backgrounds whose parents never went, uh, to college or immigrants. It’s, there’s this huge imposter syndrome that we start with. There’s like, oh, I’m not supposed to be here. And now looking back, I think if like the Fern first year Fern saw met with the Fern right now, fourth year Fern, she would be like, oh my God, that girl is so smart and I’ll just never be like her. And like, you know, that is me. So I think it’s really important to understand that it imposter syndrome is just your social comparison of where you think you need to get and where you are.

Fern (31:38): And it’s all about learning. The only way to get over that imposter syndrome is to actually do and increase our self-efficacy and our belief that we can do these things. So just it, and that can apply to anything, right? With budgeting, it’s like, it’s not this imposter syndrome of like, I have to have X amount of money in order to be successful. It’s like you just have to learn how to budget and learn those skills and just do it. And then once you feel confident about it, that imposter syndrome will just eventually dissipate and just pass on that knowledge to people who are just getting started.

Emily (32:09): And that ties in back so well with what we were talking about with like the social programs that you learned about from like your peers and everything. Just not counting yourself out as like, oh, I’m not the type of person who should be doing this at this stage. Yes you are. These programs are designed for you at this current stage. You’re not gonna use them forever. It’s gonna be a temporary thing, but it’s really gonna help you get your feet under you, you know, and you only needed to be on them for, you know, two, three years and now you have this fantastic fellowship and like things are so different in your finances now, just, just after the passage of a little bit of time and a little bit of change of income sources. So again, I’m so glad that you share these, these tips and these insights with the audience. Um, thank you so much for volunteering to come on and being so transparent and I really think people got a ton outta this interview, so thank you.

Fern (32:50): I hope so. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Outtro

Emily (33:03): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Addressing Fellowship Tax Pain Points through Education, Resources, and Advocacy

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In this episode, Emily interviews Jack Mao, the founder of Tax Fellows, a nonprofit organization that prepares pro bono tax returns for Stanford students. Tax Fellows primarily serves first-generation, low-income undergraduate and graduate students, and has a special focus on the tax implications of receiving scholarships and fellowships, such as the Kiddie Tax and estimated tax payments. Jack shares the advocacy approach he’s taking to reform the Kiddie Tax at the federal level and lists ideas for how graduate students across the US can bring more attention and resources to resolve their tax pain points.

Links mentioned in the Episode

Addressing Fellowship Tax Pain Points through Education, Resources, and Advocacy

Teaser

Jack (00:00): Where students aren’t being told to expect significant tax liability on their stipend checks and like making sure that they save money for taxes. There’s no, you know, mechanisms like withholdings where the schools will pay the taxes on the students’ behalf. And so the students just kinda have to like figure it out and learn the hard way during their first tax season. And I feel like, you know, that’s not really the way to go. That there definitely needs to be a lot more resources across all the universities in the country to really help educate these students on their tax liability and really help support them through it as well.

Introduction

Emily (00:54): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:24): This is Season 17, Episode 7, and today my guest is Jack Mao, the founder of Tax Fellows, a nonprofit organization that prepares pro bono tax returns for Stanford students. Tax Fellows primarily serves first-generation, low-income undergraduate and graduate students, and has a special focus on the tax implications of receiving scholarships and fellowships, such as the Kiddie Tax and estimated tax payments. Jack shares the advocacy approach he’s taking to reform the Kiddie Tax at the federal level and lists ideas for how graduate students across the US can bring more attention and resources to resolve their tax pain points.

Emily (02:04): The tax year 2023 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. You’ll hear me reference this workshop once or twice during the interview. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. Go to PFforPhDs.com/taxreturnworkshop/ to read more details and purchase the workshop. By the way, it’s never too early to start laying the groundwork for university sponsorship. If taxes are a pain point for you, please let the administration at your university know that you would like them to provide additional resources either during next tax season or near the beginning of the academic year, as Jack suggests near the end of the interview. I can license one or both of my asynchronous workshops or deliver a live seminar. Please cc me ([email protected]) if you decide to recommend me! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e7/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Jack Mao of Tax Fellows.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:40): I have a really special guest joining me on the podcast today. His name is Jack Mao and I’m going to let him introduce himself to you further in just a second. I just wanna say how we got connected, which is that I have been working with Stanford this past tax season to provide my tax workshop to their graduate students and postdocs, and Jack started an organization at Stanford called Tax Fellows. The more serves on the undergraduate side, but definitely some overlapping, um, interests in populations between our two. And so because of our mutual collaborators at Stanford, we got to talking and just had an absolutely fascinating conversation and I knew that I had to bring him onto the podcast. So Jack, we’re gonna get into your whole background, but just really briefly, can you tell us who you are and what you’re up to right now?

Jack (04:23): Sure. Uh, thank you so much for having me on the podcast here, Emily. Um, my name’s Jack. I am, I was a Stanford student, uh, until recently. And, um, I’ve been also a credentialed tax professional, uh, federally credentialed for the past, uh, couple years, but in the industry for about six years so far. Um, and yeah, it serves a lot of, um, you know, college students, that’s kind of my strong suits and so it was natural for me to just kind of start Tax Fellows, uh, in partnership with the IRS and few Stanford offices to help out other college students with their taxes.

Emily (04:58): Yeah, and this is a really unique organization. I haven’t found one like it at any other universities I’ve collaborated with. So I wanna hear more about that. But first I wanna get a little more background on you, Jack, and sort of how as an undergraduate student you became interested in income tax and ultimately, you know, that led you to starting Tax Fellows.

Jack (05:16): Sure, sure. So, um, my background is actually in computer science and so totally different than, you know, tax, um, and accounting. But, um, it was back in high school I was, um, so I come from a low-income background and I was trying to start a small business to help out with family finances. Um, and at the time I just had, you know, my McDonald’s paychecks to pay for everything, which wasn’t really enough to, you know, pay for, uh, you know, accountants or, uh, lawyer’s advice. So what I did was, yeah, it’s a good CS major or do just Google everything. Uh, would not recommend unless you plan on switching ma- uh, you know, majors in industries, um, or careers. But, um, yeah, um, Google, everything. Really loved. Uh, just the way the taxes works, you know, I hate paying taxes, but it’s just, you know, it allows you to have a lot of creativity and flexibility and kind of, uh, finding ways to get around taxes you don’t really want to pay, uh, at times. Uh, and so that was really fun. I really want, uh, go more into it and to decide to volunteer with the IRAs VITA program, um, that works with nonprofits, uh, to provide free tax services to income taxpayers. So been, uh, in that program ever since, uh, and still am in that program, uh, through Tax Fellows today.

Volunteer Income Tax Assistance (VITA) Program & TaxFellows

Emily (06:37): So can you explain a little bit more what the connection is between the VITA Program and Tax Fellows? Is it exactly the same? Is there, is there more to it?

Jack (06:45): Sure. So, um, originally we started out just as a VITA site. And so Tax Fellows is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, it’s a standalone nonprofit, um, that’s separate from Stanford, but we partner with the IRS, where the IRS helps us provide some training, some overhead and, you know, oversight, um, and helps us source a lot of our volunteers as well. Um, but now, now that Tax Fellows, um, has finished their first year and joined to our second tax season, uh, we have been expanding our programs a little bit, um, to also provide a additional pro bono, um, program called Tax Advisors, where we have our credential tax professionals, um, on a team prepare more complicated tax returns for undergrad students with kiddie tax, uh, obligations, uh, just because that is something that is outside the scope of VITA program. Um, and so we couldn’t prepare those in the past. So we kind of are in a way, um, half pro, uh, VITA sites and half a kind of a pro-bono tax in a sense. Um, and so, uh, but you know, we do have a pretty good partnership with the IRS and a few, uh, good stakeholders in the area.

Emily (07:59): And just for the listeners who aren’t familiar with VITA, maybe they’ve never been to, you know, access to services that are available to them at their university or their library in their city or whatever, can you explain like who that program is for?

Jack (08:10): Sure. So Tax Fellows, um, is, uh, or just VITA program in general, um, is for low income taxpayers, um, who might want some, you know, additional help with their taxes, um, but, you know, um, might not be able to afford say, a tax professional. Um, and so VITA sites, they are run by nonprofits at IRS, uh, partners with, uh, usually and, um, they’re staffed by volunteers, many of whom are credential professionals or retired professionals, but a lot of whom are also just newer, um, folks to the industry who want to get some more experience. That was kind of how I got my experience, um, with taxes and, uh, just kind of, uh, having the IRS, you know, train them, uh, on the volunteers on, you know, these basic tax topics so that they can, um, help prepare your tax returns for you, uh, at no charge. Um, these are all out of the volunteers, uh, generosity, um, of their time. And so, um, but it’s a really great program, um, with a lot of guardrails so that, you know, um, the quality control is usually pretty high. Um, and, um, yeah, yeah, definitely a really great program for anyone who makes under around $64,000 every year, um, and have fairly simple, uh, situations, uh, to get their taxes done, uh, really great and for free. So

Emily (09:39): I’m so glad you mentioned that number. ’cause in a lot of the country people are making less than that amount of money, so it really covers, yeah, a broad swath of people, especially my population graduate students, even some postdocs will fall under that, um, level of income. So they can almost always, if they have a VITA site available to ’em, access those services. And I’m really glad you just mentioned, you know, there’s, there’s guardrails there. Um, there’s only, you have to have a simple tax situation to really benefit. And that’s why you mentioned earlier that you started this tax advisors wing of tax fellows. Let’s talk a little bit more about some of these like confusing tax issues that may be common between like the first generation low income population that you serve, and then the funded graduate students and potentially postdocs population that, uh, that I serve.

The Kiddie Tax

Emily (10:22): So you, you mentioned the kiddie tax, um, let’s brief overview right now about what the kiddie tax is for anybody who has the, uh, misfortune of hearing about this for the first time.

Jack (10:32): Yeah. Yeah. So, um, kiddie tax originally, um, the inspiration behind that, uh, on the legislation side was, you know, a lot of these high net worth individuals, uh, your parents especially would, you know, have pretty high marginal tax rates. What they would do is, you know, have tax professionals who would kind of find all these little loopholes. And one of them is, you know, they could just pass along their investments to their children who are basically making no money, right? Uh, especially if they’re a minor. That way they could both save on taxes, Congress didn’t like that. Um, and so they implement kiddie tax where if, uh, the child is a minor, uh, or a full-time student who didn’t, uh, you know, earn, uh, from a job, uh, so earned income, um, more than half of their living expenses, then they’re considered basically, in a sense a soft dependent of their parents.

Jack (11:33): And so any unearned income that the child has now, uh, will be taxed at their parents’ highest tax rate. Um, and so, uh, that way, you know, the richer parents can’t just pass on their investments, uh, through their children because they’ll be tax rate basically. Um, unfortunately the way Congress defined kiddie tax, um, was very broad. And so it also encompasses, you know, college students who have, you know, taxable scholarship, financial aid, uh, you know, fellowships where, uh, you know, if they don’t have earned income from a job that’s more than half of their expenses, especially at, you know, Stanford where cost of tuition and like the, um, the room board are like an 80 to a hundred thousand dollars every year, uh, if not more. And so the student, not only do they have to like work a, you know, um, full-time job, you know, making more than 50 K to get outta it, uh, it is just a lot of qualifications and so too much complexity. Um, and that’s kind of, um, one of the biggest reasons why, um, we’re so popular at Stanford as while just helping students navigate, uh, through all this complexity.

Emily (12:52): Yeah, that makes sense. And this hits my population all the time. When you’re receiving a fellowship, one of the things about the calculation that goes into the kiddie tax is that your expenses include your education expenses and not just like your living expenses. So that scholarship that goes towards paying your tuition, the cost counts as part of your living expenses, but the scholarship that pays for it doesn’t count on like your side of the ledger of like providing half of your own support. Exactly. Exactly. So, right, so like they get hit with this fellowship, um, issue too. Now, what was interesting about the kiddie tax, I think I read into like the history of this and it seemed like there was like a creep going on. Like at first it was just minors, then it was up to age 19, then it was now it’s students, um, up, up, up until, you know, through age 23, under age 24.

Emily (13:34): And so over time it kind of like expanded and expanded. Um, but there was a reform a few years ago with the Tax Cuts and Jobs act that attempted to, um, make some changes to the kiddie tax. Mm-Hmm . And it really hit your population, that low income population because what they did was they, for a couple of years changed the definition so that, um, no longer were you taxed at your parents’ highest marginal tax rate, but you were taxed at the marginal tax rate for trusts, which simplified things certainly because you would just look at a table and see where you fell on that instead of having to, you know, link your tax return with your parents. But if your parents were low income to begin with, maybe that kiddie tax was not so big of a bite. Now, if your parents were high income, of course it was a big bite, but because it really, really increased those marginal tax rates on those low income populations, there was a big outcry. And after a couple of years, I think it got shifted back to the old model of go to your parents’ tax rate. So that was, yeah, just some interesting like shifts that happened with end time. But yeah. Yeah, the kiddie tax is a very unpleasant thing to find out about.

Commercial

Emily (14:33): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Paying Estimated Taxes as a Graduate Student

Jack (15:38): Oh yeah. So, uh, especially for like first year grad students, uh, who have like a lot of taxable stipends ’cause they get like stipend checks, uh, usually and, you know, they would owe a pretty significant amount of taxes. Uh, and so to, to a point that they definitely need to pay estimated taxes, not only like to avoid the underpayment penalty, but also to, uh, just not be surprised at the tax bill end the year and try to like, try to recoup all the money, um, to pay, uh, substantial tax liability. And so, uh, we’ve been educating, um, grad students, um, as they come in, especially the first year grad students, uh, kind of how to pay estimate taxes. ‘Cause we also have California and they have like, their kind of special snowflake. They have like very, um, specific percentages, um, where it’s like 30%, 40%, 0%, 30% for like, the amount of estimated taxes that need to be paid.

Jack (16:31): Federal is like pretty straightforward. It’s just one fourth of the tax every quarter. Um, but just kind of educating students on like how to pay those, uh, payments, trying to figure out, um, how much to pay. Uh, and then kind of repercussions if they don’t, uh, pay as many taxes. ’cause you know, uh, students they could be busy and so, uh, you know, I’ll just kinda let them decide based on all the facts available, like whether um, it’s worth the effort of doing as many taxes. Usually it is, ’cause like usually if you don’t do it, um, for students that we have, um, served, their penalties are gonna be around a two, $300 range, uh, in this economy with, uh, the inflation. ’cause the penalties really based on just interest, um, and the interest rate that r assets for, you know, all, all their penalties and interests and, um, it’s just prorated across the year, uh, based on the, um, estimated tax payment you’re supposed to make, uh, from that date on, um, to the tax season. And so right now, uh, usually the past the rate was like 3% and so it wasn’t too bad, but right now the rates are in a 7% range. And so it’s definitely significant.

Emily (17:44): I found that as well that a lot of graduate students are aware of the estimated tax issue, but they just choose to not address it until tax season. And if they go into that with their eyes open, of course that’s their decision. But, uh, like you, I just try to lay out, okay, this is the trade off if you decide you’re going to neglect this.

Jack (18:01): Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (18:03): I think the real tough part is ra- facing that, you know, multi-thousand dollar tax bill that you exactly may not be prepared for.

Jack (18:10): Exactly. Because, you know, yeah. Students are also taxed on your part of the fellowship that goes to room board and room board in the Bay Area is pretty significant. Um, and so not only do students have to usually save for taxes on their stipend checks, you also have to like figure out, um, how much tax to save on housing, uh, stipends and some of the other stipends. And I feel like, you know, right now there’s not really a good way for the students in general, I feel like maybe it’s just more of a lack of re- uh, educational resources in the first place, um, where students aren’t being told, uh, to expect significant tax liability, um, on their stipend checks and like making sure that they save money for taxes. Um, there’s no, you know, mechanisms like withholdings where the schools will pay the taxes on the student’s behalf and so the students just kinda have to like figure it out, um, and learn the hard way , uh, during their first tax season. Um, and I feel like, you know, that’s not really the way to go. Uh, that there definitely needs to be a lot more resources, uh, for across all the universities, uh, in the country, uh, to really help educate these students on their tax liability and really help support them through it as well.

Emily (19:27): Yes. You know, I agree with you of course ’cause this is one of the main missions of my business, but, um, we’ll talk more about how people can sort of get more resources and get more education to their own peers, um, later on. But I just wanna add on that point. I mean, Stanford, obviously, you and I are both working with people at Stanford, so like Stanford’s obviously making a pretty, a relatively large effort in this area. Sure. Um, to get people informed about this. But I, it’s, um, I do not see this at this degree of resources being offered at many other places, which is to add, but I will tell you that there are a couple universities I went to one Duke, um, where they actually did offer income tax withholding on fellowships. I don’t know how or why it happened. I mean, the paychecks were being processed through payroll instead of through financial aid.

Emily (20:10): So there was a mechanism for doing it. Um, and it did generate a weird tax form. We got a 1099 miscellaneous instead of a, you know, 1098 t or whatever. Sure, sure. Yeah. Um, so it caused some downstream tax complications, but they did offer it. So that is something that I know is happening at some places and maybe it could happen at more places and it would certainly be easier on the students than having to engage with the estimated tax system. So Now that we’ve kind of talked about, like, you know, this example of the kiddie tax, how the kiddie taxes changed with time, um, how advocacy actually around after the pa after the passage of the Tax Cuts and Jobs act, when, you know, the tax rates were jacked up for these low income families, there was an outcry and it was reversed. I want you to give us a few examples, if you don’t mind, of Yeah. Some things that have changed within the tax law over time, uh, that relate to students, just so we can see some examples of like, this is not completely static, like these things do change.

Advocacy Around the Kiddie Tax, Taxable Scholarships, and Other Niche Financial Issues

Jack (21:02): Yeah, yeah. So, um, right now we’re actually trying to do some advocacy, uh, around the kiddie tax and the taxable scholarship arena just because, uh, it is, I’d say slightly outdated, uh, set of tax law. Um, you know, it was most recently updated back in, uh, the 1986, um, uh, tax changes. Uh, there, there were some major tax changes back then, uh, and never since, like since then, like I’d say like the, just the way scholarships and financial aid work, especially at like, you know, expensive private universities like Stanford, uh, and like the Ivy League, um, like it tuition has just gone up significantly where I don’t think it really makes sense anymore to put a lot of that tax burden on students. Um, and without any, like, you know, as you mentioned, like, uh, stu- you know, schools have to like put withholdings on a 1099 miscellaneous.

Jack (21:59): Um, so like, there’s not really like a, a mechanism say on a 1098 t or another like educational oriented form, um, to really help students, you know, save a little bit on their taxes, um, you know, having those taxes being taken out already. Uh, and so we’ve been, uh, trying to do some advocacy around their, uh, you know, the legislative side who’ve met with, um, the late Senator Feinstein’s office, uh, and representative Eshoo’s office, uh, who represents the district Stanford’s in, um, to kinda discuss about, um, you the struggles that students are going through with K tax and, uh, especially like undergrads as well, where they don’t get stipend checks really. Um, but even the in kind aid for, you know, room and board, you know, especially on top of like internship income, that is pretty significant. Uh, burden, you know, we typically see like about two, two, $3,000 of burden on in-kind aid, so money that the student never sees.

Jack (22:59): Um, and so they have to like work a, you know, good like on-campus job just to pay the tax on again, money that they never see. And so it, it’s a struggle. I mean, um, we’ve been, um, able to help the students save a little bit on taxes, you know, optimize, uh, with the parents, uh, so that we dumb it down to about, uh, a few hundred dollars, but even a few hundred dollars is pretty significant for these income students. And so we’ve been really help, um, working with in these, um, legislators, um, on, you know, ways that we can really change the tax around us. Um, and, you know, the judicial side as well, trying to poke holes and, um, kind of, uh, tax code surrounding, uh, these topics, uh, through tax court. Uh, and we might even, um, do some advisory, um, and meet with advisors through, uh, President Biden’s office, uh, very soon here. Yeah. Even on this, uh, university side as well, uh, you know, trying to get, you know, support fund going for, uh, you know, students to pay their tax liability, uh, especially in the first years where they might not expect such high liability, uh, and it would be, you know, challenging for them to pay those liability. Uh, but it’s been, it’s been tough working with Stanford, um, for now. Uh, but we’re still keeping at it and, and we’ll see kind how it goes, uh, over time. Yeah,

Emily (24:30): I think the kiddie tax is such a great example of an issue that’s right for change, just because, you know, the way you explained it earlier, which is the way that I understand this as well, is the original, um, conception of the kiddie tax was to make it less advantageous for high net worth parents to pass assets, income generating assets to their children. And that is not at all what is going on with scholarship and fellowship income. It’s, it’s perplexing to me how scholarship and fellowship income even got tied in with investment income in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. I, it’s, it’s completely baffling to me. Yeah.

Jack (25:04): Well, I mean, even with leg- legislators, uh, you have with, uh, it’s been, uh, it’s been challenging for them to just, I guess like, um, everyone has, um, like especially legislators have, you know, lots of, uh, different priorities that they need to kind of first, um, solve. And so I guess we weren’t too high on the set priority list. Uh, I mean, hopefully they’re, that they’re working on it, but, um, it, it’s, it’s, you know, a lot of politics as well. And so it’s a, it’s gonna be a long game, but, um, we we’re pretty committed to, you know, doing long-term advocacy around this, um, gonna go at it, um, as long as this is a thing, uh, and, you know, just some interesting, uh, statistics as well. So, um, you know, yeah, can tax, like, as you mentioned, like it’s definitely for, you know, these high level worth parents, uh, and their children.

Jack (25:58): And so typically the median, uh, an average income that we see for, um, you know, students or just children who have to fill out the kiddie tax form 8615, the me-, uh, the average parents income is actually in a, uh, about $1 million, uh, taxable income. A lot of these low income students, their parents are not making a million dollars . Um, and so like, yeah, this is definitely unintended consequence of the way legislators wrote the tax. Uh, and even for taxable fel- um, scholarship fellowship in general, uh, it’s heavily under-reported, uh, only about $4 billion of taxable financial scholarship and fellowship are, is being recorded. Uh, and so it, it’s, you know, it’s an area of the tax field that, you know, Congress and IRS isn’t really making a lot of money, um, in, in the first place. Uh, and so, uh, you know, using those arguments, you know, we’re hoping to really push along the change a little quicker, uh, especially ahead of the upcoming, uh, sunset of the TCJA, uh, Trump, uh, the Tax Trust and Jobs Act, uh, back when President Trump passed it, uh, just to kind of see if we can push along, um, uh, as a rider on, uh, those big tax bills that are coming up soon on the Congress side.

Jack (27:24): So, so we’ll see. We we’re, we’re definitely, uh, steadfast our commitment, uh, to advocacy here.

Emily (27:30): And I mean, I’m, I’m so excited about this and I hope you keep , keep it up and everything, and I’m just, um, I’m really inspired by like the story of how the definition of taxable compensation change for the purposes of contributing to an individual retirement arrangement. Because that also seems like a very, very tiny niche issue, right? The, the Graduate Student Savings Act to, if anyone is not familiar, it used to be that fellowship income not reported on a W2, was not eligible to be contributed to an IRA. And this was proposed, you know, federally several times in terms of the Grad Student Savings Act to change this definition so that it could be, and it failed several times until it finally got rolled in with the Secure, the Secure Act in 2019, and it was passed. And like, again, it was a thing that mattered so much to like my population, um, and it was amazing that it passed.

Emily (28:17): But yeah, that’s a really, really niche issue. And hopefully, again, some of these other niche issues like the kiddie tax can be addressed too. I actually have one more example. Yeah. So the tuition and fees deduction, they tried to eliminate that over and over and over again, and it kept being like resurrected year after year. It’s finally gone now. But again, for the listeners who were not in graduate school, maybe a few years back, yeah, there are currently three higher education tax benefits, but there used to be four available. The fourth one was the tuition fees deduction. Yeah. And it was the least useful and valuable one, and it ended up, I mean, the reasoning why they kept a congress kept trying to sort of sunset that particular de deduction was that it ultimately just confused people more. And so people would take the tuition fees deduction Mm-Hmm. when really one of the credits, for example, might have been better for their tax liability overall. Mm-Hmm. . So my understanding was it was causing more confusion and they just eliminated it. And it, it kind of sounds bad to like, oh, eliminate a deduction that was available to you, but really there were better ones avail better credits available. Yeah. Yeah. So that was another, I just kept watching it year after year being like, okay, it’s finally gonna die. No, they brought it back again, finally. Now it is gone.

Jack (29:24): No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s definitely confused. Uh, so the students I’ve served in the past as well, um, and like there’s just, I think there’s a lot of different ways Congress is, uh, trying to help with education expenses, uh, through tax code, but, uh, you know, I don’t think, you know, with the taxable financial aid, fellowship scholarship, uh, section, um, there’s definitely a lot more potential there, uh, for, uh, you know, change. And so we’re definitely, uh, um, hope that Congress can, you know, really take up our word. And there’s definitely a lot of other nonprofits like us, uh, that I’ve met with who are also advocating for same thing as well. Um, you know, typically we don’t really see audits rates that high, especially for students. But even then, you know, none of my clients have gone on in knock on wood, uh, yet.

Jack (30:16): And so, uh, but yeah, I’ve definitely heard from a lot of these other nonprofits, some of the students that we’ve been working with. You know, there’s one, uh, one of the organizations that was, uh, serving foster youths, uh, that I met with, and one of their foster youth got audited on their taxable financial aid fellowship, uh, scholarship. And the outcome is not pretty. Um, so, uh, it’s definitely, uh, one of the biggest and one of the most urgent issues that we’re trying to tackle. Um, not only on the legislative side, but also, uh, just kinda on university side as well. Just especially the, um, private institutions like Stanford and, uh, the Ivy League. They have a lot more resources that they can more easily deploy. Um, and, you know, that’s quicker than, you know, trying and, you know, make change on the, uh, policy side of things. But yeah. We’ll, we’ll see.

How Graduate Students Can Advocate for Tax Related Resources at their Universities

Emily (31:11): Do you have any ideas about how graduate students at other universities can, um, do any kind of advocacy work or just ask their university for anything that would help them sort of gain more resources or, um, education or anything that would help them on this, you know, in, in tax season to, to handle things a little bit better? So like, what can they, maybe not, of course, founding a whole organization like you did but some little things they could do at their university to get some more attention to these issues.

Jack (31:39): Yeah, that’s great. Um, I think, uh, you know, for example, let’s say your podcast and kind of your resources are great, you know, great starting point. Uh, you know, one of the partners that we’ve worked with at Mutual Partners here, uh, Mind Over Money, uh, they’ve, uh, spoke really highly of your resources. And so that’s definitely a great starting point and just kind of advocating for universities to, um, kind of, uh, provide resources and kind of distribute resources, um, across, uh, campus. But also I think like, you know, while not, you know, maybe not founding a whole, you know, uh, tax program from scratch, but, you know, if a university has a law program, uh, then definitely would recommend, you know, working with Senate faculty there, uh, to try to set up, uh, maybe in con- conjunction with United Way usually has, uh, VITA programs already set up. And so just kind of, uh, using existing infrastructure in support of, uh, VITA sites and just kind of start, you know, a small one. It could be a small one, just trying to start out, um, kind of helping other students through their taxes, um, and then trying to attract like, you know, tax professionals and lawyers to the organization.

Using Caution When Getting Tax Help as a Graduate Student

Emily (32:47): So I observed with the VITA site at Duke, um, sure. Sorry to speak against them, but, um, yeah, they were not preparing returns properly with the weird fellowship stuff that was going on at Duke. I see. So I would just say whether there is a VITA site or whether you wanna start one, make sure that they know the population that’s gonna come in and the questions that they’re going to have so that they can train their volunteers specifically towards the situations that they’re going to see Now, because of the weird way that Duke did things, like I actually understand why the mistakes that were made were made, and it might be easier at other places that don’t use the 1099 miscellaneous. Sure. Yeah. Um, but yeah, just to let them know like, Hey, I’m gonna tell all my friends to come in and like, make sure that your volunteers can do this Sure. Correctly and easily and quickly. Definitely.

Jack (33:29): Definitely. Yeah. I mean, we don’t really see a lot VITA sites and universities, uh, where we really should. But, um, even a lot of, uh, sites that I’ve seen, um, at universities, you know, I’ve kind of had a connection with Yale, um, and I wanna say, uh, UC, uh, Santa Cruz as well, uh, in California, uh, they, I I wanna say a lot of them only serve low income tax payers that are not students. Um, and like they don’t orient these services to students, which I think is a good approach, especially if they’re newer site starting out, uh, and not have a lot of those more experienced volunteers, uh, or professionals to kind of guide, you know, the volunteers. But yeah, you, you mentioned a really great point, uh, which is that like, you know, not all VITA sites and even tax professionals I’ve worked with in the past, you know, who have like decades of engineers, not all, you know, professionals or VITA sites, understand, um, kind all the ins and outs of the tax code that are relevant to students.

Jack (34:33): Uh, I’ve even had tax professionals think that, you know, taxable financial is not taxable , um, that was, that’s the you highest extreme I would say. But, uh, even just like optimizing, especially for a lot of undergrad students, optimizing, you know, the, um, you know, parts of the tax, you know, involving, you know, like tax credits, you know, deductions, you know, against their financial aid, uh, and along with their parents, you know, their parents who might be, you know, claiming for example, like the earned income tax credit, um, or the premium tax credit for health, uh, insurance or a lot of other tax credits and just like coordinate the, uh, tax credits that both the students and the parents are claiming, uh, to maximize those resources that that takes a lot of expertise, uh, to do correctly. Um, and so I definitely agree with you there.

Jack (35:25): Um, definitely do be careful, um, with, you know, starting VITA sites, uh, and with just tax professionals in general, just making sure that they actually have the expertise, um, and experience serving students, uh, in order to serve you, uh, you know, better and more accurately. And so I think our, our, uh, you know, tax fellows, um, uh, program, I’m very glad I’m able to, uh, you know, help students, uh, using their expertise. Um, and you know, we’ve been invited, uh, to train other volunteers at other VITA sites, uh, in these student tax considerations. And so, you know, if you’re thinking of starting VITA site, uh, please do reach out, uh, to us at Tax Fellows. Uh, happy to kind of, um, kinda walk you through the steps of starting VITA site, uh, and managing a VITA site, but also kinda allow of the student tax, uh, considerations that, uh, you should think about and kind of consider and, you know, we’ll do some more practice together, uh, on it too.

How Universities Can Support Graduate Students Around Taxes

Jack (36:20): But yeah, I think just in general, um, working with university administrators, uh, and the folks who, uh, you know, run orientation programs to add another orientation session might be just, you know, even if it’s just like one hour long, um, just to kind of prep students for what they should expect with taxes. You know, a lot of these like, you know, big picture, you know, policy changes, you know, like, uh, university like, just kinda like resource changes. Those take time. But I think you just adding another program to orientation, uh, for new students, that’s a really good first step that I think doesn’t take too much convincing to do and will be really effective, uh, to really help students, um, kind of foresee what they should expect at tax season, uh, so that they don’t have to, uh, you know, get surprised, you know, kind of play the game of Russian roulette and like try to, you know, guess and pray, you know, for the best I guess. Yeah.

Emily (37:31): Yeah. And I’ll just have to do a self plug because I have a session like that that’s ready to go. It’s perfect for orientations. It’s live, it’s awesome. Um, yeah, so those of you who are listening, if you, if you want me then please, you know, reach out to me, reach out to administrators at your university. But I would actually say just even back up from that, um, yeah, just talking about the issue of, or like the struggle that people that you’re having with your either preparing your tax return or dealing with your estimated tax or whatever it is, just telling the faculty and the administration that you have concerns about this and you want them to provide resources to you is very, very helpful. Um, because a lot of universities are super reticent to touch taxes with a 10 foot pole because of perceived liability issues on their end. Now it’s kind of funny because they, they do help international students to a great degree. They don’t usually offer the same kind of help for domestic students. Um, but if you tell them repeatedly and get a lot of people to tell them that you want more resources around this, then that’s, I think, the best they can figure out how they want to meet that need. But just letting them know that that need is there, that that concern is there is a wonderful first step.

Jack (38:34): Definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (38:36): Okay. So Jack, thank you so much for giving this interview. It’s been wonderful to speak with you. Yeah, thank you so much. And I want to end with our last question. Sure. Which is, what is your best financial advice for a funded graduate student or an early career PhD? And it can be something related to taxes if you want. It could be something that we’ve talked about during the interview, or it could be something completely different.

Jack (38:56): IRAs, I cannot emphasize enough how important and just like life changing that IRAs could be. Um, you know, there’s definitely, you know, for, you know, especially grad students, uh, PhD students, uh, you know, once you, you graduate, you, you might go into academia, but if you go into industry, uh, where you’re getting paid, you know, six figure salaries out-, out the door, it’s gonna be, you know, you could still contribute to say like a Roth IRA, but uh, it’s gonna be a bit more difficult and there’s like backdoor stuff to consider. But um, you know, now is the best time for a lot of, you know, grad students with their income level to contribute to Roth IRA while they still can, uh, easily. And you know, once the money is in, it’s a basically tax free, um, forever, uh, you could invest in, you know, stocks, you know, um, even occasionally startups, if that’s kind of your thing.

Jack (39:58): You know, I’m a little biased. I, I, I’m running a startup and like Stanford really good on startups, but, uh, you, that’s how you know folks like for example, Peter Thiel, um, have, you know, so much money that’s tax free is because he was able to contribute while he was, um, having lower uh, amounts of income in his early days. Uh, and then, you know, once the money’s in, there’s a lot of flexibility, uh, and ways to really help maximize your investments. Uh, while at the same time not having to kind of hinder the compounding growth of this investments with tax payments, yet I have to make, um, you know, on like dividends or interest or whatever. And so, yes, definitely Roth RAs is big and like, you know, lot students are also younger as well. And so the growth potential for those Roth IRAs across, you know, 46 years is gonna be huge. Uh, and so definitely do look into Roth IRAs as soon as you can contribute as much as you can, uh, ’cause you know, later down the line, uh, your future self will definitely thank you for it.

Emily (41:04): Absolutely could not agree more. My current self, thanks my grad student self were contributing to my Roth IRA back then. Not to put an even finer point on it, you know, as a graduate student you’re probably in the 12% federal marginal tax bracket and you may never see that one again. you maybe exactly, you know, above that for the rest of your career. So like exactly, that is the time to do it and it’s incredible and I love this advice because it’s both tax and overall financial, um, advice and it’s wonderful. And Jack, again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Jack (41:34): Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Emily. It was great, uh, chatting with you.

Outtro

Emily (41:48): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This PhD’s Path to FIRE Has Evolved with Lifestyle Design and Having Children

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Amanda, a prior podcast guest who is on the path to FIRE. Since our last interview, Amanda and her husband moved to the Twin Cities and had two children. Amanda recounts the exciting start to her FIRE journey when she was a postdoc and contrasts it with the boring middle of pursuing FIRE now with long-term jobs and a growing family. Amanda and Emily discuss the extra expenses that come with children—and those that don’t have to—and how emergencies and other expensive projects mean that the progress made toward FIRE is different each and every year. Amanda and Emily conclude that pursuing FIRE really is more about the journey than the destination and all the benefits you experience along the way.

Links mentioned in the Episode

This PhD's Path to FIRE Has Evolved with Lifestyle Design and Having Children

Teaser

Amanda (00:00): Know that your life has phases and make the most of the phases you’re in. You know, I think as as I started learning about finances, I felt so eager to be in some of the phases that I saw other people. And I felt so frustrated being at the beginning or not having the kind of income or options that I wanted. And, you know, as I’ve been on this path for a while, I’m just learning that every phase of life has, uh, some really beautiful benefits and great things you can do. And then there’s things you aren’t working on. And it’s okay to not be accomplishing every goal, uh, all at the same time.

Introduction

Emily (00:46): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:15): This is Season 17, Episode 6, and today my guest is Dr. Amanda, a prior podcast guest who is on the path to FIRE. Since our last interview, Amanda and her husband moved to the Twin Cities and had two children. Amanda recounts the exciting start to her FIRE journey when she was a postdoc and contrasts it with the boring middle of pursuing FIRE now with long-term jobs and a growing family. Amanda and I discuss the extra expenses that come with children—and those that don’t have to—and how emergencies and other expensive projects mean that the progress made toward FIRE is different each and every year. Amanda and I conclude that pursuing FIRE really is more about the journey than the destination and all the benefits you experience along the way.

Emily (02:04): The tax year 2023 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. I do license these workshops to universities, but in the case that yours declines your request for sponsorship, you can purchase the appropriate version as an individual. Go to PFforPhDs.com/taxreturnworkshop/ to read more details and purchase the workshop. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e6/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Amanda.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:13): I am delighted to have back on the podcast today, Dr. Amanda. She joined us in two previous episodes, season one episode 11, and season five episode 15. So we’ve seen a couple of snapshots of Amanda’s, uh, financial journey so far that she’s been, um, so generous to share with us. And we’re gonna get another update today after a few years. So there’s been a lot of changes. Amanda is on the path to FI or fire, financial independence and early retirement. And so we’re gonna talk a lot about what that looks like for a PhD today. So Amanda, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. It’s a pleasure to see you again. And will you please introduce yourself a little further for the listeners?

Amanda (03:50): Sure. Happy to be with you again, Emily. Uh, I am Dr. Amanda. I am currently an assistant professor in education. Uh, something kind of unique about my current position is I work fully remote, so I live in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota and I work for a university that’s out of state. But my students are EDD students, so they’re doctoral students in education, they’re teachers, school administrators, principals, they have full-time jobs, so they’re doing most of their program online. So I go to campus when they have their on-campus residency type stuff. But otherwise we’re all online and it works great for me. I love teaching online. I do a lot of dissertation support over Zoom. Um, so me sitting with headphones in a setting like this is, uh, kind of how I spend my days and I really like it.

Emily (04:42): And if you wanna hear more about that, the second episode I referenced season five, episode 15 is where Amanda talked about her job search and how she strategically moved to the Midwest, et cetera, for at least partially financial reasons. So I’m sure we’re gonna hear more about that too. Um, anything else you’d like to share with us?

Amanda (04:57): Uh, I have two young kids, which I believe last time I was on the show I, I don’t even think I had either of my kids. So I’ve got a one and a 4-year-old now. And, um, one of the things I really like about my remote position is it’s flexible. It allows me to spend a lot of time with them, uh, and be there for them. So that’s really great. My daughter goes to a nature preschool now in our neighborhood, which we just absolutely love. And then my son is, he spends most of his days with his grandmas.

Emily (05:28): And that was, as I recall, one of your reasons for moving there, right? Your proximity to family.

Amanda (05:32): Yes. So my situation was I had my, uh, husband and I had moved from Los Angeles where I was a postdoc at USC and he was a technical director in the USC games division. And then I took a position, uh, way across the country in Ohio and we get to Ohio and we move there and my job’s going great, I really like it, but he’s not finding the right thing. And then the perfect job for him, he designs educational games and Twin Cities public television, uh, PBS and the Twin Cities post this job where they’re looking for somebody to lead their digital and games content for, uh, it was a new show at the time. Now it’s Hero Elementary for anyone who has littles who watch Hero Elementary.

Emily (06:16): My kids love that show.

Amanda (06:17): Yeah. And we love it too. And it was just the perfect job. So that also happened to be 10 minutes away from where my family was living, and we knew we were kind of wanting to start a family, so it was like, you have to apply. And then my university was great, like things were going well, and they said, do you wanna try something remote? And this was pre pandemic, so it was a little experimental at the time. Now I feel like this is not an unusual scenario, it was at the time, but it’s worked really well. Um, so we’ve been doing that a lot of years and it just continues to work. Great.

Emily (06:50): I love this lifestyle design. Um, I’ve been listening to a lot of Cal Newport recently. Are you familiar with him? Yes. Yeah. So I’ve, I’ve read a few of his books. I’ve been listening to his podcast and he’s all about this like, I can’t remember the acronym, but it’s basically lifestyle centric career design, something like that. Um, but basically doing exactly what you’ve just, um, exemplified is getting enough career capital, in your case, the PhD, the professorship, um, to be able to leverage it to get the lifestyle you want at the point in your life when you need it, which for you was, you know, this opportunity for your husband and the, and the kids coming and all of that. So like, ugh, I wish he did interviews ’cause you would be a great interview for his podcast, but I don’t think he does that sort of thing.

Amanda (07:26): I mean, it is scary. Like when we were doing it, I remember thinking like, I agonized for weeks over trying to figure out how to ask if I could go to remote. But thinking I’m a first year professor, I was even just a few months in really, because this all happened within really right after we moved, um, we moved to Ohio in late July, August, and over Thanksgiving I helped my husband move to the Twin Cities ’cause he was starting there. So he was only there a few months, but I remember thinking like, I don’t have this capital, we can’t do this. How am I gonna ask? And then they brought it up and I remember feeling so relieved and thinking I probably could have asked, but I think sometimes as grad students, we, I know at least I felt like there was a way you’re supposed to do things.

Amanda (08:12): Like we were trained in sort of the R1 research world where it was like, you are going for a tenure track job. That is what you are going to do. You’ll move anywhere, do whatever it takes you to, you know, and especially as a couple, like you gotta find that dual hire. And I spent my whole time as a postdoc feeling like, I don’t know if this is what I want. And just, it probably took me a few years of listening to a lot of financial podcasts and lifestyle podcasts to really get comfortable with saying, what if we don’t do that? What if we did something different? What if we, this is crazy, try to live where we wanna live, which for us, you know, is the Midwest where family is, and we actually really like it here. We like the seasons. It’s not for everyone. The winters can be brutal, but, um, it took a while to get to feeling like we could make those choices.

The Beginning of Amanda’s FIRE Journey

Emily (09:03): Yeah, I see what you’re saying, because you might not think right, getting out of grad school, getting outta your postdoc that you have any career capital at that point. But honestly, if they made the investment of hiring you as a faculty member, like yeah, it’s a big investment for them too. So, and you were just ahead of the curve, right? Because everyone’s doing the remote like thing now, so it’s all worked out. I’m so glad to hear that. Let’s get into the topic for today. We’re gonna talk about your journey to fire and how the moment you’re in this, what they call the boring middle phase. So I want you to back up a little bit and describe to us what the beginning of the journey to fire looked like when it was exciting and no longer boring like it is now. Um, and we did get some of this in that first interview that you did back in season one, episode 11 about how you read Ramit Sethi book and started making some changes and so forth. So we got a little bit of that story, but describe to us a little bit more completely what, what you think of as the exciting beginning to the fire journey.

Amanda (09:54): Yeah, I guess I would say it kind of started for us when we moved to Los Angeles after finishing grad school because that was the first time we had, uh, jobs that weren’t assistantships. So we, we had a little bit of money and we very intentionally decided to, um, try to then hit, uh, you know, some of those higher savings rates we were reading about. So when we got, we lived in a really nice, uh, condo in la but it was small. It was only about 700 square feet. And we, um, our biggest expense then besides rent was doggy daycare because we’d been talking about adopting a, a pup, uh, all through grad school. And it was like, no, no, no, we’re doing this, we’re doing this now. Um, so we were paying for doggy daycare, but otherwise we just like to be outside.

Amanda (10:41): We did our own cooking and so we were really intentional about trying to keep our costs down and then hitting our student loans really aggressively. And we were, we were in school far enough back where we did have those like 7% interest rates that you’re seeing now. And so it was enough where we were looking at that going, we’d really like to pay these off. And so, um, you know, that was just something we really focused on is not, um, not blowing up our lifestyle too much when we were starting to make it was postdoc money. It wasn’t crazy money, but it was more than we were, more than we had when we were grad students.

Emily (11:15): Yeah, I think that’s one of those important messages about those career transition points, right? I mean, you, you hear the live like a student thing, but for people with PhDs, it’s like, you were living like a student for a really long time, but please, please, please just hold on, do a, a couple of lifestyle upgrades like you got the dog, but like, don’t go crazy with it when you’re still only making postdoc salaries or after that because you can really make some good traction against your financial goals. And especially if you’re feeling behind by that point. Um, you being immersed in the personal finance like community, you probably did feel behind, I would imagine, even though like objectively speaking, you weren’t . Um, but like having those kinds of influences, you were probably really eager to get started with the savings goals and the, and the student loan repayment and all that stuff, and that you Oh yeah, you can really make good progress on that when you’re keeping your lifestyle low.

Amanda (11:57): I remember looking at those compound interest, uh, charts and thinking, what have we done with our twenties ? Oh my gosh, we’ve been in school, we haven’t made any money, you know, now we’re 30 and we’re just starting. Oh, we messed it all up. And it took me a while to go, okay, you know what? It is okay, 30 is not that old. But I, I do think that sometimes that can happen to those of us in academia who do spend a long time in school and you know, oftentimes people have a lot in loans too, so it can feel like, um, it can feel like you’re starting from behind. We actually, um, we have this little lifestyle. We just run this little Etsy shop. Um, it’s tiny. It doesn’t make a lot of money, it’s just a lot of fun. We have a laser printer and we make game tokens and wood coasters, but we named it 30 below zero because at 30 years old our net worth was below zero. And it was just a reminder for us of where we’re starting. And so it’s the name of our Etsy shop. It’s just kind of funny, but we did, we felt behind.

Emily (12:58): So you were talking about that exciting beginning of, okay, we finally have some salaries, , where we can make, you know, some progress toward these goals and a simple lifestyle. I mean, Los Angeles is expensive, the rent and so forth. But you said other than that, in the doggy daycare, you kept things pretty reasonable. Um, was anything else sort of, um, exciting or different about that phase of your fire journey?

Amanda (13:19): Yeah, I would say we did something kind of different with our wedding. Uh, you know, that that was a good example of us seeing what do we value? Let’s not do what everyone else is doing. What do we wanna do? So we were living in San Pedro at the time, which is right, just a few miles from Catalina Island, and we could see Catalina Island when we would go on hikes with our dogs. You know, you’re looking off at the coastline and there’s the island. So we decided to get married on Catalina Island, but we just did this small immediate family. So we flew our parents and siblings out and that’s it. We had this tiny little ceremony, super charming on Catalina Island. We all, we booked them all, uh, rooms in the same hotel and we just spent a couple days hanging out there on the island, hiking, eating out. Um, but we never did a big thing with DJs and catering and that just, it didn’t feel like what we wanted at the time. And so that was an example of us just saying, okay, what do, who are we and what do we wanna do? What are our values? And how do we live this FI thing while also being true to who we think we are?

Emily (14:25): Hmm. Yeah. I can see how that does fall into the exciting beginning part of the journey because you’re taking this new step with your relationship, um, you’re, you know, combining things maybe in a way you didn’t before and thinking about your values and how you really want your life to look through this period of transition. And so that, that is an exciting time of really being able to think through and set some new patterns and and so forth and, and do something a little bit counter-cultural, like what you’re saying. Um, yeah. Anything else you wanna add about that period?

Amanda (14:52): Uh, no, not a whole lot. We just, we continued to do that. Um, when I started the faculty job, we, you know, I think a lot of people when they start a faculty job, especially I think in the Midwest, in a place where houses are affordable, it’s like, well, I have to have a house. But we just, in the first year we’re like, we don’t know this place yet. We’re getting to know this area. So we rented a modest apartment. We, um, this was a, a fairly rural area, so we were getting our groceries at Walmart, which was kind of new to us, but like doing our own cooking. And then when my husband took the job in the Twin Cities, he actually lived with my parents for a short time until I moved there. ’cause for a while we were in different states. Um, but we, at that time, we had a really aggressive savings rate because I was living by myself doing yoga with Adrian and walking the dog free entertainment, playing video games and cooking at home. He was doing the same thing, new job, living with my parents. So, um, at that time it was just kind of exciting to watch those student loan balances go down and feel like we’ve, we’ve got this, we can actually do the things we’ve been reading about doing.

Retirement Accounts and Student Loans

Emily (15:57): Yeah, that is very exciting. Okay, so you’re watching the student loan balances decline, you were also saving for retirement. Is that, is that true? Can you tell me like the mix of accounts that you were working with? Yeah,

Amanda (16:05): Yeah. Um, USC was kind of unique because, uh, my husband was working as an employee of USC and I was a postdoc, so he had access to their retirement savings and a match. And I didn’t as a postdoc, I don’t know if that’s changed since then. Uh, so we were, um, LA the la he was paying into his 401k and as soon as we actually, even as grad students, we were trying to max out our Roth IRAs or at least contribute to those. So we really did start right away when we were reading about this stuff as like, all right, let’s a Roth, we can do a Roth, you know, it’s not that much money or let’s just do what we can. Um, and so it was just starting to add to that. Then we added, um, when I started as a faculty member, I eventually got access to a 403B at my institution. So yes, we are definitely investing for retirement and trying to get that going while also getting the student loans paid off.

Emily (16:59): Now I’m curious because we’ve been talking mostly about the pre pandemic time period, but did you make any different decisions with the student loans when the administrative forbearance came into play?

Amanda (17:09): We had them paid off by then, actually. So, um, yeah, we went real aggressive real fast. Neither of us had, we both worked through college and grad school, so neither of us had, um, the sort of terrifying balances that you hear about some people starting with, which is good because, uh, you know, we are, we’re in tech, but we’re in ed tech education, so we also, um, you know, weren’t gonna be making the kind of crazy money that you kind of need to make to pay off those six figure, uh, loan payments. So it really didn’t take us more than a couple years to get those paid down. So I believe by the time the pandemic hit, we had already paid off our loans.

Emily (17:49): Okay. So student loans eliminated starting, or, you know, continuing and accelerating their retirement savings. And did a house purchase come into play at some point there?

Amanda (17:57): Yes, we bought a house at the very end of 2018. Um, our daughter was born in June of 2019, so kind of right around the time I moved from Ohio to the Twin Cities area, we bought a house, um, in the neighborhood where my parents live.

Current Finances, Lifestyle, and Non-Traditional Housing Decisions

Emily (18:14): Lovely. You mentioned your daughter born in 2019, and then your son’s about three years younger. Um, so let’s, let’s fill out the lifestyle now in terms of what your finances look like. What, what your lifestyle looks like. Um, now that you’ve got the job set and the kids are present or on the way, like what does this phase of fire look like?

Amanda (18:34): It’s slower and more boring. Uh, you know, if I’m being honest, um, we did, uh, upgrade the house and part of that is because my husband’s mom lives with us, she helps us with childcare. So we wanted to have a nice space for us. And what we did, this is, uh, kind of non, another non-traditional thing we did, we swapped houses with my parents, so they lived right in the neighborhood, but they were, uh, you know, they’re kind of thinking about retiring, they’re looking to downsize. ’cause they were still in kind of the home they’d raised, uh, my sister and I in. And so they had more space than they wanted and we were, uh, as we were thinking about having a second child, we were like, ah, this, we could do this. It’s gonna be tight. We could finish the basement and create these rooms. And it just sort of worked for, um, my parents were happy to buy the house that we had bought, which is a little bit smaller, but in the same neighborhood. And we bought, uh, the house that I grew up in or I moved when I was a kid, but, you know, somewhat grew up in, uh, you know, from my parents. And so it is a bigger house. Um, you know, there are, you know, it’s a, the expenses are a little higher for sure, but, um, yeah,

Emily (19:46): How, I don’t know. I just, I’m so tickled whenever I hear about families that are able to do these kinds of things for one another. There are some people in my husband’s family who have done something similar with their, um, children and it’s just, it’s so, it’s so lovely that you get to have that proximity and you get to live this more, a more communal lifestyle than is really, you know, typical for most, um, Americans. So it’s great to hear. Um, anything else? What, what’s going on now with the, the boring middle? You’re adding kids, you’re adding expenses related to the kids.

Amanda (20:13): Yeah, we pay for preschool now. Uh, we’re trying to contribute a bit to 529s and, you know, everything’s just a little bit more expensive, you know, this, this bigger house costs a little bit more. Um, we’re in Minnesota, the heating and cooling costs, especially the heating costs are, you know, they, they add up for sure. Um, I’ve become a little bit more into health and nutrition since having kids, and so I definitely buy bougie or groceries, , you know, we, uh, just quality of food, you know, we don’t eat out a lot lot. We really do cook at home, but, um, definitely we spend a lot more on groceries than we were spending a few years ago, but that’s, it’s an intentional lifestyle choice. Um, you know, for us, we are pursuing fire, and we can talk about this a little bit, but there isn’t a point at which we feel like we need to reach it. It isn’t like, oh, we really want to be completely fire by 2035 and, you know, um, it’s just sort of a direction that we’re heading rather than a very specifically defined goal.

Emily (21:20): I’ve, I’ve noticed with our family too, you know, we, we have kind of a, you know, a, a similar trajectory. We have two children, we own a house now. Um, we’re compared to when we were renting, even when we had the two kids, we were still renting for some time when we were living in Seattle. Um, an 850 square foot apartment with the four people. Oh. And then the pandemic started , so that was fun. Um, so like the housing cost for instance was a massive upgrade to go from that apartment to like the house that we purchased, but that’s because it’s a lot bigger. There’s just a ton more to like maintain. There’s a lot more considerations you have as a homeowner than as a renter. When you look at these like estimates that are occasionally put out, I guess, that are done yearly of like the cost of raising a child, you know, birth to age 18, a really, really big, big chunk of that estimated expense, which is like $200,000 or something.

Emily (22:06): A really big chunk of that is the housing expense , because you have to find room for this extra human that’s in your family or more than one human that’s in your family now. So that’s, I think, you know, you can, you can decide to be like frugal in a lot of ways if you want to, when you have children, like maybe you, um, you know, make other arrangements for childcare. You don’t spend as much in that area, but the housing is like, maybe it doesn’t come when they’re a baby, but eventually you’re gonna have to have a bigger space to accommodate those extra people. Um, so that’s been, not, not exactly surprising, but just like it has a really big effect. Like we for instance, don’t make, aren’t making nearly as much progress with our savings as we may have expected with the nice salaries that we have now because just, yeah, a lot of our expenses are a lot higher than it was for just two adults.

Amanda (22:47): Yeah. And my husband was just showing me this graph of uh, a graph mapping what people are spending on housing. So median rent and mortgage payments with uh, US household incomes and oh, that’s it. It’s a depressing graphic to look at. I mean the real reality is, is even if you’re doing everything right, uh, it’s, especially depending on where you live, housing is going to be a really substantial part of what you’re making. It’s fairly unavoidable. And like you said, when you have kids that space is just kind of non-negotiable. I mean, you know, there are a handful of families you hear, oh, you know, we have five kids and we still live in whatever square feet. And you know what, some people make that work, but I think for the vast majority of people you do kind of elect to say, ah, you know, maybe we won’t be saving as much as we would in a really ideal world, but this space helps us live a life that, you know, is calm and happy and feels right to us in the time.

The FIRE Journey with Children and Car Buying Decisions

Emily (23:49): What are the other ways that adding these children to your family has affected your fire journey?

Amanda (23:54): We still try to, um, you know, look for wins where we can. So, um, you know, I said we spend a lot more on grocery than we used to. ’cause I just really care about the quality of food. We don’t care that much about cars. I work remotely. My husband works part-time remotely thanks to the pandemic. So he went from having a job where he was in the office five days a week to now he’s only needs to be in the office a couple days a week. So we have two kids, but we only have one car. And right now, while our kids are little and they aren’t in a lot of activities, that works great for us. So we have a, um, completely paid off car. We paid off our car. That was another thing you asked about pandemic expenses in 2020, we made the last payment on our car.

Amanda (24:37): So now we don’t have a car payment and we’re not looking, uh, to upgrade. Like we didn’t feel the need to get a big SUV as soon as we had kids. And I know that’s something that a lot of Americans, it feels like a very American thing to do. Like we’re having a kid, we need an SUV, we are really happy with our economical hybrid and we’re still happy with it. So that’s one way we’ve tried to control our expenses. Like I look at what’s happened with the cost of cars in the past few years and uh, they look a lot like rent and mortgage payments. Look not that long ago, .

Emily (25:10): Yeah. I want to underline this strategy as well. It’s, it’s something that, that I’ve noticed too really common that you upgrade a lot of things. Some people upgrade a lot of things pretty much immediately when they, they know a child is on the way or once the child arrives, whether that’s the bigger car or the newer car or the bigger housing arrangement. Even if a baby is very, very small and you don’t necessarily need that right away. Um, although eventually of course you do. And some other thing, other like lifestyle upgrade as well, like same for us. Like we actually have, our car is a 2003, we’ve been, my husband’s owned it that entire time, so it’s over, you know, it’s 20 years old now, it’s a sedan. Um, and yeah, I think we were maybe thinking about switching out the car before the pandemic and then like you said, because of what’s happening with prices, we were like, whoa, let’s put the brakes on that.

Emily (25:54): Like, we don’t wanna engage in this market right now. Yeah, now my kids are five and seven and they’re getting to that stage where you said they have more activities, they have more stuff going on. We’re thinking maybe we do either need a larger primary car or perhaps a secondary car. I think what’s gonna happen is we’re gonna keep the 20-year-old car as a secondary car, right? Add, yeah, just add another, um, maybe bigger, maybe the same size of car. We actually just invested in solar panels, so we’re probably gonna get an electric car for that next, um, step. But it’s like we, we put it off, right? We put it off until this stage when it’s like, okay, it’s really, really seeming like it’s necessary at this point. And I mean, I cannot tell you like how much savings that is over the years. It’s probably multi thousands of dollars each year, if not like, perhaps $10,000 in that first year. And just delaying that expense every time. You can delay a big expense, you can stretch out the time that you use, you know that item over, you get more and more value and you’re able to direct your money elsewhere.

Amanda (26:48): I think there’s a choose Fi episode where they look at driving a car for, it’s not even a crazy amount of time. It’s like 10 or 15 years for the car, but not upgrading as soon as you’ve paid it off and just continuing to drive it. And they look at that over an adult lifetime, just that one decision. And I think ultimately they get at a million dollars or close to a million dollars just in the savings of not constantly having a car payment or driving the most expensive vehicle you could possibly afford.

Emily (27:18): It’s absolutely a huge difference. And like you said, lifestyle makes a big difference here. ’cause like my husband and I both work from home that we walk the kids to school, like we don’t really need, we don’t really drive except for like going to errands and driving the kids to their activities sometimes. So it’s not even, yeah, it’s just, we don’t put that many miles on the car, I guess is what I’m saying. Now sometimes it’s convenient to have two, but we’ve been doing a lot of biking recently. We’ve been doing some Ubering when we do need the second car and that feels expensive in the moment, but when you think about it over the long term, it’s so much less expensive than owning a second car that you rarely use.

Commercial

Emily (27:52): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Emergency Fund

Emily (28:42): Now you mentioned, um, in our, uh, pre-interview communications that you are at the moment very grateful for your emergency fund. So can you tell us more about why that is?

Amanda (28:53): 2023 has demanded a lot from our emergency fund. Uh, literally on January 1st, I was driving the kids home from Target and our car broke down and it turned out it needed pretty much the most expensive possible repair for that car. And it’s a hybrid, so it ended up being about $6,000, which is it. We had kept up the maintenance. They had just told us a few months before that this car was in great shape. Uh, we were not anticipating any car expenses, there was nothing we’d been deferred. So it was a real surprise to us. Uh, but given what had happened, as we just talked about to the cost of cars over the pandemic, we were looking at it and going $6,000 doesn’t even get us that far to a comparable similar vehicle. And so we decided to do that repair and uh, you know, luckily we had the emergency fund, so we were able to, uh, pay for that.

Amanda (29:51): Uh, fast forward just a few months later in the summer, uh, we found out our dog needed a pretty substantial surgery. And again, we’d, we’d worked hard after spending down some of that emergency fund to build it up, uh, you know, even over those few short months. And it’s just, we felt so good being able to not have to consider whether we can afford that surgery. Um, you know, and just, and not needing to worry about financing, but knowing we could focus on, yes, let’s do this procedure. Let’s get her the care she needs, let’s get her feeling better. And so that was just phenomenal for us. And you know, that was a good reminder. I am very happy to live below my means so that when things like this happen and things are going to happen like this in life, we just don’t need to worry about it.

Amanda (30:39): It’s, yes, we have this money, we’ll pay for this surgery. Um, and so that was just, um, really, we were very grateful to have the money to not have to worry about the cost of that and to just be able to pay for it in one fell swoop. And then, uh, just last month we decided to do an installation project. So we had new installation put in an erratic, we did a, a home energy audit in the summer and found out that we have about five inches of attic installation and they recommend 15 here in Minnesota. So, uh, you know, given the severity of our winters, we were like, yep, we’d better do this right away. Let’s get that insulation taken care of. So that wasn’t an emergency, but again, just having savings and having the fact that there’s a good chunk of money every month that we just put away for stuff that we know will come up later has just been so fantastic for us this year.

Emily (31:35): Yeah, that, that really speaks to the, um, utility and the stress relief that comes with having margin in your life. That’s financial margin, that’s time margin, that’s energy margin. Not everybody has that. It’s, it’s difficult to, to intentionally get your life to the level where you have margin in those areas, but when you do and then those things come up, you’re so, so grateful that you did that advance, you know, work and, and design and so forth to, to have that happen. Um, I like to say regarding emergency funds, that an emergency fund is what stands between something bad happening in your life and something bad happening in your life and there being significant financial consequences for it. Um, like your dog’s, um, surgery for instance. For instance, um, so like you, if you hadn’t had the money, you, you may have had that really tough decision about what do you yes.

Emily (32:22): Do you lose this, this pet and do you lose this Yeah. Member of your household. Um, but you didn’t have to agonize over that because you had the money. So it just provides so much, so much peace. And I lived for a long time with very scant emergency fund because I was in grad school and I was focused on other things, but like I, we have much larger one now and it, it does afford a lot of peace of mind, especially with the extra responsibilities that come with the home ownership and the car ownership and the kids and all the stuff that we’ve been talking about. So it definitely needs to sort of scale with your lifestyle.

Amanda (32:52): Yes, it does. We definitely have more set aside and uh, more things come up for sure. But yeah, I personally am happy to slow down on things like vacations or uh, you know, we just talked about cars, you know, if we had another car that’s money that probably wouldn’t be in that emergency fund. And just for me, I sleep so much better at night knowing that money is there for whatever is going to come up where we’re going to need it. And you know, I know not everyone, um, comes to that same conclusion. Um, and I think that post pandemic, there’s been a lot of this, um, you know, YOLO mentality and I totally understand that, that people are wanting to prioritize experiences, but I just have to say personally, I’ve landed on, I’m much happier with, um, some money just being there and waiting for what we need it for.

Emily (33:48): And the thing is like the expenses of the emergencies, whatever they’re gonna happen, whether you’re prepared for them or not. And so putting in that earlier effort at whatever stage you’re able to, to build it up then buys you the peace of mind indefinitely going forward as long as you can maintain the fund because again, the emergencies are gonna happen, but it’s whether or not it’s how you feel about it and how you can approach it, that is making all the difference. And again, it doesn’t have to be like a continual sacrifice for decades to maintain that emergency fund. ‘Cause again, once you build it up, all you have to do is pay for those emergencies. You would’ve paid for them anyway somehow. So I’m curious about that actually, because you said something like you worked hard to build the emergency fund back up after the first, you know, depletion of the fund for the car expense. So I’m just wondering like how you did that. Was it changes in your spending? Was it reducing your savings rate in other areas? Was it working additionally? How did you do that?

Amanda (34:37): Yeah, it was largely, um, cutting back a little bit on the percentage we’re putting away for retirement. Um, you know, there was a point during the pandemic where we maxed all those accounts out and that felt really great. This is not a year where we’re maxing out Roth HSA and 401k, 4 0 3 bs. Um, I would love to have another year like that. Um, but this isn’t that year and that’s okay. Um, you know, ultimately we just decided, and, and we didn’t stop contributions. We just kind of cut, cut back a little bit on that percentage to get the emergency fund back up to where we felt comfortable with it.

Emily (35:18): Uh, once again, I see a parallel in our stories here because we maxed out our available retirement contribution room for the first time ever in 2021. So that was like 2 401Ks, my employer side of my 401k and two Roth IRAs. We did it again in 22. In 2023. This is not happening again, . Um, because as I mentioned, we had the solar panels which we’re paying for upfront, like we’re not financing them. So we had to pull that money partially from savings and partially from cashflow to be able to do that. And so that alone, plus I just mentioned we may have a car purchase in our future, like yeah, uh, we’re still doing like one 401k, we’ll still do the two IRAs, but how much we contribute to that second 401k is not too clear at this point in the year. We’re recording this in, um, October, 2023, by the way. So, but that hap that’s, that’s how life is. I mean, it’s not all like perfect numbers on a spreadsheet, like perfect numbers in your financial plans, same thing happens every single year, right? You have to adapt in some ways. And now that we’ve had that taste of like what maxing out felt like those couple of times, I’m pretty sure we’ll get back to it at some point.

Amanda (36:18): It feels good, right?

Emily (36:19): Just not 2023

Amanda (36:20): Mm-Hmm, Well, congrats on the solar panels. That’s a bucket list project for us. And, uh, you know, to be able to pay for it without financing, it is not something that many people can say. So congrats to you.

Emily (36:31): Yeah, and that was, uh, it, it’s not all thanks to us, it’s partially some leftover parental gifts from when we bought the house. We got some gifts, we didn’t spend all of it on the down payment that is now being redirected to a literal investment in the house. But here in southern California, like our electricity bill is really outta control. So like the solar panels clearly are an ROI within just a few years. So it’s a, it it is literally an investment as well as, um, just like something we want to do.

Amanda (36:56): Yeah, I I was just hearing that, that the ROI is very good in California with your high energy costs, pg and e and um, and abundant sunshine in southern California.

The Future of Amanda’s FIRE Journey

Emily (37:06): Yeah. And I can only imagine it’s gonna get worse in terms of energy costs. So it’s, it’s again, looking long-term planning kind of thing. Um, so yeah, we’re excited about that. Okay, so we’re talking about the boring middle of five. We got the kids, we got the kids’ expenses, you know, you’re doing your best you can on your 401Ks, you know, managing with life’s, you know, circumstances that are thrown your way. What is the future of your fire journey? Or maybe like you mentioned earlier that you’re not looking for like a specific super soon end point. You’re very happy with your lifestyle in many ways. So like why do you still identify with pursuing fire and what do you think might change when you get to that official where financially independent point?

Amanda (37:45): Yeah, we don’t have a specific destination, but what we are pursuing is options and flexibility. We just know for us, uh, that someday, you know, thing things happen with life and with jobs and with health. So one day, maybe one of us, we’re both happy with our jobs right now, someday, maybe one of us is in a toxic work environment. Maybe, uh, something happens with our health or the health of one of our kids, or maybe one of our kids develops some really interesting crazy hobby that, uh, you know, might require some kind of specialty training or some travel or something like that. We don’t know. But, um, we want to be able to say yes to things that life will throw at us in the future. And so for us, this FI journey isn’t about we want to move to Portugal or Thailand in 2035. It’s, we want to be able to say yes to opportunities and to never have to stay in a situation that that isn’t good for us. We always want the option to be able to make changes so that we can, uh, just live a happy, supportive life that’s good for us and good for our kids.

Emily (39:03): I, I feel like the fire movement broadly over the past few years has moved in the direction of what you’re describing. It, it, you know, 10 years ago it maybe felt much more, um, boxed in , right? Like, this is my savings rate and I have X many years until I get to this point and I’m quitting my job. And that whole attitude, and as more and more people attempted that journey, they realized that maybe the journey couldn’t look exactly like that, or maybe they didn’t even want the end point that they had imagined like earlier. Um, so many people I think are attracted to fire because they’re unhappy with their job in some way. And if you do the work of getting into a job that supports your lifestyle, as we were talking about earlier, then there’s not such a strong impetus to get out, you know, ASAP.

Emily (39:45): But like you said, that things can change with your job and with your health. And so I think it’s so smart to not, and this is what we’re doing too, like not count on I’m gonna work till I’m 72, I’m gonna work till I’m 65, and my finances depend on my ability and the market’s ability to keep providing me with work opportunities until that point. Um, and I don’t know, our, our listeners right now are probably somewhat younger than we are, but I’m 38 and I’m, I’m not exactly, I’m not tired, I’m not slowing down, but I can see in the future that I don’t necessarily want to live this way for many, many, many more decades. And that, you know, going, seeing what our parents have been going through health wise and other people around us, like, you can’t, you can’t count on that necessarily. So, like you said, just to give yourself options earlier and earlier is, is a great gift.

Amanda (40:27): Yeah, that’s exactly how we feel. And I do think you’re right, the FI community has sort of shifted in that direction, and I always struggled with this idea of what’s your fi number and your FI date, because it, there were just so many assumptions about, uh, a consistency of your spending. Um, you know, something that I’ve learned over the past few years, I mean, what my expenses looked like as a grad student were nothing like what they looked like as a postdoc or anything like what they looked like right before we had kids. You know, now we have kids, we support our kids. Um, my mother-in-law lives with us, like life changes every year. And so I don’t know what my expenses are going to be in a few years, and that’s okay. But I do know that having built up a net worth isn’t something I’m likely to look back and go, wow, I really wish I hadn’t done that.

Amanda (41:17): So, um, yeah, we’ve never been able to pin down exactly what, um, you know, specific, um, I’ve never calculated a fi date or a fi number because there’s just too many assumptions in there that I’ve never felt comfortable saying. I know what those assumptions are, but we know that life will provide us with interesting opportunities. My husband and I are both lifelong learners. You know, we’re in education, we love to learn new things. I can’t rule out that one of us might wanna do a complete career pivot, go back to grad school or something someday. If, if that’s something one of us wants to do, I hope we’ll be able to do it.

Emily (41:52): Exactly, exactly. Similarly with us, like I’ve never calculated, well, I’m, I don’t, I don’t call myself like on the fi journey, but I’ve also never calculated a fi date or a FI number because like, frankly, my husband and I bought the house we currently live in and we are not planning on living here. Once our kids are out like well outta the house, we’re gonna downsize, and who knows what that’s going to look like. So like, even when you draw closer and closer, um, to achieving that, you know, what you think might be the net worth goal of, you know, achieving fire, um, you can still make big changes and, and you may need to, and especially with the, the family unit that keeps evolving with time. Um, like you said, there’s just, every year is different. And so yeah, we may be on the journey , um, for a while. There’s not really like an end point necessarily. And so many people, again, in the fire community who maybe they did leave their jobs, they find that they’re still earning money in just other interesting ways. And so it’s like, well, you didn’t even need to reach that number necessarily. You just needed to reach, uh, coast Five, for example, or some other point where you felt comfortable changing your work situation.

Amanda (42:51): Yeah, I think it’s a very rare person in the fire community that someone retires and stops earning money, at least from what I hear in the books and the podcasts. No one knows that person. They aren’t really out there. So yeah, people find things to do. Oftentimes that comes with some kind of an income or, you know, financial incentive. Um, but again, to have the ability to pursue that, to take a risk on building a business or go back to school to learn a new skill, whatever it is, um, we just wanna be able to say yes to it in the time that it feels right.

Emily (43:25): I love it. I love the vision, I love the description of your lifestyle. Sounds lovely to me. But, you know, , we found many common commonalities between us during this episode. The listener may, uh, not want a lifestyle that looks anything like either one of ours, but the whole point here is just that you can use your finances to help you achieve that lifestyle, whatever it is that you, um, most desire it to be by having that margin, having that savings rate and the things that we’ve talked about so far. Thank you so much, Amanda. And is there anything else that you’d like to add before we conclude the interview?

Amanda (43:55): No, just thank you for your time. I’ve really enjoyed the opportunity to talk to you to catch up a little bit on your story as well.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (44:02): Absolutely. And let’s, let’s end with the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another PhD? And that can be something that we’ve touched on in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

Amanda (44:14): Yeah, I would say this is something that we’ve touched on a bit. Um, know that your life has phases and make the most of the phases you’re in. You know, I think as, as I started learning about finances, I felt so eager to be in some of the phases that I saw other people, and I felt so frustrated being at the beginning or not having the kind of income or options that I wanted. And, you know, as I’ve been on this path for a while, but still have a long way to go, at least to that, you know, completely financial in independent space, um, I’m just learning that every phase of life has, uh, some really beautiful benefits and great things you can do. And then there’s things you aren’t working on and it’s okay to not be accomplishing every goal, uh, all at the same time.

Emily (45:02): Hmm, absolutely. And that, um, extension of our discussion reminds me of, uh, the book Die With Zero by Bill Perkins. Have you read it? Oh my gosh.

Amanda (45:09): I have not, but it seems like everyone in the community has, so it’s most definitely on my reading list because I’ve, I’ve yet to hear someone say it hasn’t transformed their thinking and just changed how they’re approaching, uh, their life and their values.

Emily (45:24): It absolutely did for me as well. I would say that was like my book of 2022 that like changed my thinking. Um, and this isn’t necessarily about specifically tying financial goals to different life stages, but just tying things you want to do to different life stages. And it really made me think differently about the opportunities that were available to me when I was in graduate school, for example, um, or out of graduate school, but before having children and what, uh, regrets I have from those times. But also what I’m glad that I took advantage of because I could see that, you know, opportunities close as you move through different phases of life. And so it’s just, um, I don’t, it wasn’t like a sad book for me, but just really helping me think about how to maximize the stage that I’m in now and thinking about what can be put off until later stages of life in terms of, um, accomplishing them, whether that’s with your finances or in other areas. So I do highly recommend that book, um, to every reader. It may make you feel better actually about the, the stage that you’re in if you’re still in graduate school or something like that. So thank you for the thought. Thank you for the opportunity to plug one of my favorite books. Um, and Amanda, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast.

Amanda (46:25): Thank you, Emily.

Outtro

Emily (46:35): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Can You Earn Money from Publishing a Scholarly Book?

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Laura Portwood-Stacer, a developmental editor with Manuscript Works specializing in authors publishing with scholarly presses. Laura has personally published two books with university presses and has a third under contract and has worked with hundreds of other authors. Laura describes why a prospective author would choose a scholarly press over a household-name publisher or self-publishing. Laura and Emily systematically discuss how publishers earn money, how authors earn money (directly and indirectly) from their books, and the costs of publication. While publishing with a scholarly press is primarily a labor of love, Laura gives ranges and examples of how much an author might earn from royalties and an advance, if any, depending on the type of book they publish.

Links mentioned in the Episode

Can You Earn Money from Publishing a Scholarly Book?

Teaser

Laura (00:00): But if you have research that is applicable in industry or policy, or places that have kind of other kinds of funding, you can command more money than you ever would make from the book itself, in speaker’s fees, or consulting fees or things like that. So, you can sort of think of the book as a strategic investment in your reputation and your platform that then would allow you to expand higher goals In other venues.

Introduction

Emily (00:34): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:02): This is Season 17, Episode 5, and today my guest is Dr. Laura Portwood-Stacer, a developmental editor with Manuscript Works specializing in authors publishing with scholarly presses. Laura has personally published two books with university presses and has a third under contract and has worked with hundreds of other authors. Laura describes why a prospective author would choose a scholarly press over a household-name publisher or self-publishing. Laura and I systematically discuss how publishers earn money, how authors earn money (directly and indirectly) from their books, and the costs of publication. While publishing with a scholarly press is primarily a labor of love, Laura gives ranges and examples of how much an author might earn from royalties and an advance, if any, depending on the type of book they publish.

Emily (01:53): The tax year 2023 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. I do license these workshops to universities, but in the case that yours declines your request for sponsorship, you can purchase the appropriate version as an individual. Go to PFforPhDs.com/taxreturnworkshop/ to read more details and purchase the workshop. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e5/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Laura Portwood-Stacer.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:58): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Laura Portwood-Stacer, who’s the owner of Manuscript Works. Laura and I kind of met on Twitter. She was recommended to me by another past podcast guest Dr. Katie Peplin. And Laura is a developmental editor of sorts. And so we’re gonna get into more of that line of work. And actually in preparation for this interview, I read her excellent book, the book proposal book, which is all about people publishing books with scholarly presses. So that is the subject for our interview today. Laura, would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

Laura (03:30): Yeah, I’m so happy to be here. Um, so yes, my name is Laura Portwood-Stacer. For the past nine years, I have run a company called Manuscript Works, where I help authors, um, navigate the book publishing process, specifically scholarly authors. Um, building on my background as an academic, um, I got a PhD. I published my dissertation as a book. Um, and now I’ve moved on to helping others navigate that process, which can be very anxiety provoking and you know, there’s not a lot of guidance out there, so I’m trying to fill in that gap.

Scholarly Publishing, Trade Publishing, and Self-Publishing

Emily (04:02): Yeah, and so any listeners who want to go down this route, certainly again, I’m recommending the book proposal book. I found it very, very enlightening. Um, but we’re actually gonna be talking more today about the financial side of this because of course this is a personal finance, um, podcast. And because, um, that was left a little bit vague, I think, in your book, so I’m gonna see if you’re willing to share some, uh, more specific numbers or number ranges with us, um, as we’re going through the interview today. Um, so first of all, I just wanna help the listener understand the distinction between what we’re calling a scholarly press and then the publishing industry that they may be more familiar with, and then the self-publishing industry. So can you just tell us a little bit about how someone who thinks they would like to publish a book at some point, how they might know which is the right route for them to go?

Laura (04:47): Yeah, so I’ll say, uh, scholarly publishing is, um, sort of a narrow subset of the larger sort of traditional publishing industry, and it’s really focused on a certain segment of reader and a certain, um, distribution channel. So your readers, if you’re publishing with a scholarly press, your readers are going to be other scholars, um, people who are doing research, who are citing previous research in their own research, who are building on your research to write their own books or their own articles or, um, grants or whatever it is they’re doing. Um, and, and the distribution would be mostly directly to other scholars who might, you know, purchase from a publisher or purchase from an online retailer. Um, and institutional libraries, public libraries, um, uh, places that are sort of invested in furthering scholarly knowledge, right? So the focus is on scholarship, not necessarily on entertainment or, um, you know, personal improvement or the kind of things that you might pick up a book from Barnes and Noble for. Um, it’s really has sort of a professional scholarly bent to it. Um, whereas probably most of the publishers you’ve heard of that are household names that are not university presses. Um, they’re gonna be more focused on commercial books that people are, you know, just gonna wanna spend money on buy as gifts. They’re not necessarily serving that, um, intellectual purpose in the same way. There are some books that cross over from like scholarship to, um, a more broad audience. Um, and we can talk about where those kinds of books get published. Um, uh, but, but yeah, so that’s sort of the distinction between a trade publisher and a scholarly publisher. And a trade publisher, of course, is gonna be mostly selling in bookstore online retailers. They’re focus is not gonna be libraries or universities. Um, and then self-publishing is sort of a totally separate avenue. Um, and you know, I guess the difference there is that the, the distribution is kind of all up to you as as the publish as the writer. So you would need to find your readers. Um, you’re not sort of tapping into that built-in infrastructure of a scholarly publisher or a trade publisher.

Emily (07:19): I see. That makes total sense. And what really, I mean, maybe this is obvious to other people, but what impressed me with reading your book was like, oh, I’m really seeing how much work the publisher is putting into each one of these books that goes out. And of course, the audience that they have in mind, like you were saying earlier, and that is in the self-publishing realm, completely up to the author whether or not you’re going to invest in other people to help improve the work and and so forth. But that’s all part of the, the process when you go with, um, either a scholarly press or a trade press, right?

Laura (07:51): Yes. Yeah, and I’ll say that’s, you know, often there’s a perception among scholars that, you know, presses just profit off of our work and, and we provide this for free and we don’t make any money off of our books, so what are we getting out of it? But one of the big things you get out of it is that infrastructure that is already in place at the publisher where they know how to peer review the books, improve the content, um, produce the book so they look nice, then distribute it to the places that are most likely to buy it. All of that stuff is like, happens on the publisher’s end. Yeah.

Emily (08:23): Absolutely. Thank you so much for clarifying that. Okay. Now I wanna hear a little bit more about your books that you’ve published. Sure. What the process is kinda like, and then also what you do now for clients.

Laura’s Book Publishing Journeys

Laura (08:33): Yeah, so I have published two books to date. Um, I have a third under contract. Um, so my first book was a revision of my doctoral dissertation. Um, pretty typical straight straightforward process there. Um, I pitched it to a small independent publisher that got, um, absorbed by a larger commercial academic publisher. Um, so it was ultimately published with that larger publisher. Um, you know, it went through peer review. I did not receive an advance for that book. It has made minimal royalties, you know, a little bit over time, but not much. Um, but I wrote it for, you know, career reasons to just sort of get my research out there to make me more attractive on the job market. You know, kind of the typical reasons that a scholar would try to publish their dissertation. Um, my second book, which uh, was published, let’s see about eight years later, was the book proposal book, um, which is, um, it’s, you know, it’s a practical how to kind of book, uh, it’s, it is sort of research based in that it draws on my own sort of personal experience helping authors get their books published and write book proposals that impress the publishers they want to impress. Um, and you know, I did some research into the publishing industry to sort of inform that, the advice that’s in that book. Um, but, you know, it’s a different kind of, readership has a different kind of purpose. That book has been much more lucrative than the dissertation based book. Um, and we can talk about some of the reasons why, uh, if, if you want to get more into that. Um, and then my third book is currently under contract, so that means that I’ve written a proposal, I’ve pitched it to my publisher. Um, they have accepted it based on the strength of the proposal and on my previous, um, book with them. Um, and I have received part of an advance for it. I will receive the advance in installments, um, but I have not received any royalties for it yet because the manuscript has not been completed, uh, completely revised and approved and accepted for publication. So the book is not in production yet. We’re still a ways out from that.

Emily (10:48): Yeah, that’s fascinating. Um, I definitely wanna talk to you more about the financial aspects of this in a moment, but now I just wanna hear tiny bit more about how you serve your clients because I think it helps the listener to understand that you’ve not only had this personal experience, but you now have like the professional experience of helping, um, shepherd other people through this process.

Supporting Authors From Proposal to Publication

Laura (11:05): Yes. Yeah, so I mean, of course the personal experience is really helpful because I know the emotions that an author goes through. I have all those same anxieties, um, you know, about pitching my work to publishers and making a good impression and all of that. But I would say, um, the, the help I’m able to offer really comes from having been through this process with other people, um, in a wide variety of disciplines. Um, so I, uh, I basically help authors kind of distill what their book is supposed to be into a book proposal, help them write it in a way that is going to connect with publishers, that’s gonna speak to what publishers are looking for, which is not necessarily the same thing that academics are thinking about, um, when they’re thinking about their research. Um, and then, uh, you know, then I’ve, I’ve seen the process follow through where they actually get the contract and the, the offer and then get their book published. So, you know, I do online programs, so I’ve worked with hundreds of authors, um, who have been through this process. So getting to see sort of the different nuances and how it works at different publishers and, and all of that has been really helpful for getting that broad view of how it works.

The Financial Side of Publishing a Book

Emily (12:16): Awesome. So I wanna dive into a little bit more of the, the money aspects now, because that, of course your, your book is taking people step by step through the whole process. Um, but I want to just get some more details about like what people can expect if they <laugh> for financially if they decide to publish a book through this kind of press. I wanna start on how these books make money and how authors make money from them. So am I correct in assuming that money is made from these books by selling these books? Is that the direct way money is made by the publisher?

Laura (12:48): Yes.

Emily (12:48): Okay.

Laura (12:49): Yes.

Emily (12:50): Now, what do the authors get <laugh> after the publisher sells you books? You’ve mentioned advances, you’ve mentioned royalties. Can you define these a little bit further and talk about sort of the scope of what these contracts look like? ’cause some people get advances, some people don’t, maybe the royalties are different amounts for different authors. Like what’s the range here?

Laura (13:06): So yeah, so publishers, you know, even university presses, which are nonprofits, um, so, so they’re not necessarily trying to make a profit, um, but they are trying to stay open and they do rely on book sales to stay open. You know, I think there’s a misconception that they are just funded by their universities and some receive some funding from their universities, but that amount is of course shrinking, uh, with austerity and everything, um, you know, in university administration. So they really do rely on selling their books in order to stay open and keep performing their service to the scholarly community. Um, so, so that’s one reason why they are looking for books with a readership of hopefully hundreds of people, maybe thousands of people will wanna read each book that they put out. Um, so, and, and they are investing tens of thousands of dollars in producing each book. Um, and a lot of that goes toward the labor or the editorial labor, the production labor, um, but also materials, um, you know, everything that goes into making the book as a product. So, um, they are recouping that investment, um, in the form of the, the sales of the book. And in most cases they will share some of that, you know, recoup with the author in the form of royalties. Um, so the author would typically get of small percentage of whatever profit the book makes. So, so yeah, so they’re always sort of calculating, um, projecting profits and losses for each book. And based on that, they may think about, okay, what can we afford to share with the author and still break even on this book, or still even make a little bit of money that we could invest back into our press to help publish maybe some of the books that aren’t gonna sell as well. Um, and that’s where they’re figuring out, you know, how much money they’re gonna share with the author. And, and in advance is, um, the amount of money the, the publisher would give an author upfront before the book even starts selling copies. Um, and that is basically just an incentive to get the author to publish with that press. Um, so that is most likely to come into play when the press believes they have to compete for the book with other publishers. Um, and they’re also going to have to project pretty significant profits from the book, you know, so they’re not sinking even more into it without some prospect of getting it back out. Um, so, so advances, you know, scholarly publishers do sometimes offer advances again under those conditions where they think the book’s going to be profitable and they think they have to compete to land this author. Um, and the range of those advances varies a lot. It could be just in the low hundreds, more of like a token kind of thing. It could be a thousand dollars a and I’m speaking from experience of having worked with people who got advances for their dissertation books. Um, so it does happen. Um, but I would say the range has been from like a thousand, maybe 2,500, maybe $5,000. Um, that would be an advance that might be available. Not common, I would say, but available, um, depending on the project. Um, for, you know, people who are more established in their careers, they have a big name they could choose to publish with a trade press, but they have chosen a university press instead. Um, people who are writing a textbook or something that is likely to be widely adopted, not just read by a few hundred people but read by tens of thousands of college students, um, or, you know, scholars who are gonna use this book for some practical purpose. Um, that’s where you can get a higher advance maybe more in the five figures. Um, it’s not unheard of for a six figure advance to come from a university press, but that would be pretty rare. That would be them competing with a trade press that might be more used to dealing in those kinds of numbers. And they’re gonna expect that book to really pay off for them to help them keep the lights on for all the other books that they sell.

Emily (17:45): So, fascinating. Thank you for telling us those like orders of magnitude for the, the different types of books. That’s really, really helpful. Um, so let’s say, um, whether or not an advance was given, um, I think you said something like when the book sales exceed the costs that have been invested, then royalties are shared with the author. Is, is that correct that royalties don’t come from book number one, but only once costs have been recouped?

Laura (18:11): No.

Emily (18:11): Okay.

Laura (18:12): Um, not exactly. Um, so yeah, it’ll be written into the author’s contract, uh, and, and I’ve seen various types of offers. Uh, some university presses will say, okay, no royalties on the first 500 copies, say, um, ’cause they know they’re not gonna break even until they’ve sold 500 copies. Um, I would say that’s a less common than a royalty from copy one. Um, but you know, the press, it might not break even until later on, but they’ve factored in the fact that they are going to compensate the author something for sales of the book. Um, so, so yeah, it’s really hard to know what that break even point is, but, but publishers are like, you know, they have a lot of data points and they are really projecting out into the future optimistically hoping they’re gonna get to that break even point. Um, but the author will likely seal some money before that point. Probably won’t be a lot of money, but some money.

Emily (19:15): Okay. Let’s, I wanna get some orders of magnitude again. Sure. So let’s say for the example you gave earlier of like someone who’s trying to publish work arising from the dissertation that they wrote, um, that kind of book. How much money would they think they might make in the first year, let’s say? Are we talking two figures, three figures, four figures, five? Like where, what is the order of magnitude there in royalties?

Laura (19:41): Uh, uh, so it’s, um, it’s really hard to generalize, I’ll say. Um, but, so, uh, maybe some other numbers will kind of help this. So let’s say your book, um, retails for, I’m gonna say $20 just for simplicity’s sake, but most academic monographs are gonna be priced a bit higher than that. Um, but let’s say it’s $20, the way that the publisher calculates the royalty, you are likely going to see a dollar or less from each sale of that book. Um, let’s say there’s a, um, sometimes publishers have, um, a library version, a library edition that is, is actually priced at a hundred dollars. Um, ’cause they know only libraries are gonna buy it. They’re not trying to sell that to like your average academic reader, but they are gonna sell it to a library that’s gonna, you know, let dozens of people read it. Um, so they’re gonna sell that for a hundred dollars and the author might see $5. Again, it depends on the, the royalty structure that’s set up in the contract, but so you might see $5 from the sale of that book. So, you know, most academic monographs that begin as dissertations, they’re, you know, they’re gonna sell to a few hundred people realistically. Um, so, you know, let’s say a hundred libraries buy your book, that would be great. That’s a lot of libraries. Um, buying just, you know, a new monograph. Um, so let’s say like very optimistically, you’re getting $5 a copy that’s 500 bucks, right? Um, you know, let’s say 200 individuals buy your book, that was, you’re getting a a dollar a copy on there’s another 200 bucks, so that’s what, $700, right? And you’d be having a good year if you got $700 in your first year, um, you know, you’d be doing, you know, well for an academic monograph. So, uh, yeah, it’s not, not a lot of money.

Emily (22:02): Okay. I’m so glad we know like the order of magnitude, that’s exactly what I wanted. Uh, do you mind me asking, what about a book like yours that’s more, those this practical kind of guide? I know the, uh, what you wrote is part of a series from, uh, Princeton University Press, right? So like, can I have an example either of your book or, or similar books like that?

Laura (22:21): Yeah, yeah. So, um, and I do wanna say all of those numbers were just hypothetical and made up. So it’s not to say like the typical book sells makes $700 in royalties that I’m just, you know, putting it out there. Um, so yeah, so for a book like mine, which is sort of, um, positioned as, um, not, it’s not an academic monograph, you know, it’s not research based in that way. It’s going to be used by many more people than somebody who might just wanna read, um, a very specific, you know, narrow piece of research because it, you know, scientists could read it, humanity scholars, social science, people at all stages of their careers. You know, people who are, um, just finishing a dissertation and wanna publish their first book, people who wanna publish a second or third book, people who are mentoring those people, people who work at publishers, you know, so just have a much broader audience. So, um, the sales expectations for that are much higher, um, and have that it has played out that way, you know, compared to my dissertation book. Um, so I’m gonna try, I’m gonna try and think of, um, the numbers of sales. I think the first year it sold about 6,000 copies, I wanna say I don’t have the royalty statement right in front of me. Um, and the second year it, uh, I don’t think it sold quite that many, but it stayed up there. It was like four to 5,000 I wanna say. Um, and I’ve just gone into the third year, so I don’t have the, the numbers for that yet. So, so that’s a much higher number. And so that has led to, you know, higher royalties. It’s still not by any means the majority of my income. It’s still sort of supplemental income, but it is in the thousands of dollars as opposed to the hundreds.

Emily (24:16): Yes. Very, very good. Thank you so much for doing all this. Yeah. Like, um, order of magnitude and just like level setting and I, I really appreciate that

Commercial

24:25 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Costs Associated with Publishing

Emily (25:16): I wanna talk more now about, um, not how the authors are making money, but the costs associated with publishing. You mentioned earlier that a publisher could be investing tens of thousands of dollars for each book that they’re putting out there. So can you tell us like, what, where are those costs coming from? Obviously I understand printing the book and so forth and there’s labor. What, what are the different maybe phases, uh, different types of people who have their hands on the book, what their different jobs are? And then I, I read in your book sometimes the publisher is gonna pay for these costs, but then also sometimes the author might pay some of the costs of, of this process. So can you kind of break that down as well?

Laura (25:52): Yeah, so, so the costs that the publisher is going to incur, you know, the, it’s the editorial labor, the editor that you’re emailing back and forth with the person who is, um, sending your manuscript to peer reviewers, wrangling those peer reviewers, then getting the reports. Then, um, you know, inside the publisher they’re making, um, presentations and pitches for your book that you might not even be aware of as the author, but the editor is doing all of that labor to get the publisher on board to say they wanna publish your book, all of that. Um, and that, that doesn’t even include like giving you feedback on the manuscript itself. Some acquisitions editors are able to do a little bit of that, um, but most don’t really have the time to give that kind of attention to the manuscript. Their, their role is more of a project manager, um, and, and an advocate for the project within the press. Um, so that happens within the press. Um, then, you know, there’s, uh, the, the production, so designing a cover, um, type setting the manuscript, so it looks like a book that can be printed on pages. There’s some design that goes into that as well. Um, most scholarly publishers do engage their own copy editors and proofreaders, um, where they would, you know, make sure the final version is like stylistically correct and grammatically and all of that. Um, uh, and then there’s the marketing and the publicity and, and all of that that goes to like making sure people know about the book and wanna buy the book. Um, and that’s not even getting into the, like the physical production of the book, which in my understanding is beyond the tens of thousands of dollars, the tens of thousands of dollars is just to get to that first proof electronically that they can then use to print the book and ship the copies and all of that. Um, so, so yeah, there’s a lot that’s going on there that is heavy on labor and so that just, um, incurs costs. Um, and of course none of that is what the author is also investing. So if you want deep feedback on your manuscript, that often doesn’t come from the publisher. It would come from a freelance developmental editor, um, somebody like myself, uh, or you know, my freelance colleagues. Um, and that money would come out of the author’s pocket usually. Um, and that could cost thousands of dollars, um, depending on sort of the level of feedback you’re looking for and how experienced of an editor you want and all of that. Um, there are also some costs associated with, um, the, you know, if you want images in your book, um, do you need to purchase the permission to reprint those images from whoever owns the rights? Um, if you want tables and diagrams, those have to be professionally drawn. Um, you might have a mockup, but then somebody’s going to have to draw that and make it look good enough to be in the book. So you might pay somebody to do that. Your publisher might hire someone to do that or have someone internal do that. They might pass that cost along to you. Um, since that’s sort of a choice you’ve made to include that in your book. Um, if you are citing, um, copyright protected material, you often need permission depending on how you’re using it. Um, that’s another thing the author is often expected to cover. Um, and then open access costs. Some publishers, you know, have, uh, infrastructure in place and they cover the cost of the open access. And when I say they cover the cost, they’re getting a grant or a subsidy or something to be able to do that. Um, um, but some will ask the author to pay a subvention, um, to, in order to make it possible to give the book away for free, essentially, thus, you know, reducing the revenue that might be expected from the book. Um, so, so i, I don’t know if that even covers everything that you asked about, but those are some of the costs that go into making a book and some of which are born by the author, some by the publisher.

Emily (30:07): Well, for example, in one of the later chapters of your book, you mentioned creating the index and you recommended yes, getting a professional to do that. That was something I was like, I never would’ve thought that was something that really would require like to do it. Well, it would require a professional. And so, and again, that’s a kind of cost I think you mentioned would probably be on the author most likely. Yes. So I was just kind wondering in general. Yeah, I mean you answered that very well. Thank you so much because it’s a little bit mind blowing just as a reader to understand all the different, um, people and elements that go into the production of a book.

Laura (30:39): Yeah, yeah. So the index thing, indexing thing is a great point. So yes, while presses often do cover a copy editor and a proof, not a proofreader, they’ll cover a copy editor. They will ask the author to proofread the proofs, the typeset proofs, and then the author might decide they wanna hire a professional proofreader or they might just do it themselves to make sure there’s no errors. Um, but the index is almost never covered by the publisher. It is something you can negotiate sometimes, again, if you have like an attractive project and they’re the publisher’s trying to get you to sign with them, um, sometimes they will cover it or um, charge it against your royalties. Um, but often you do, the author does need to provide the index, which again, you can DIY it and you get what you pay for kind of, um, or you can pay a professional indexer, which could cost a thousand dollars or more. Um, yeah, so it’s an investment the author makes in hoping it just makes her a better book product that people will use and cite and all those things we want for our books.

Emily (31:41): And I believe I also read in your book that sometimes this is what an advance is used for. Like the author might try to negotiate for an advance knowing that those are, there are cost coming down the line that they can use in advance to cover. It’s very different from the way I think of an advance, like in a, you know, larger household name publisher kind of situation. Um, and maybe that’s like just naive of me just not understanding much about the publication process. So I am getting the impression that we’re not making a living off of these books <laugh> maybe until you’ve published one every year for your entire career, maybe that layered by then you would have enough. Um, so given that, um, if authors are not really making that much money, you know, maybe hundreds or few thousands of dollars, um, per year directly from their books, how are they able to use those books to leverage into their careers, to earning more money, advancing their career in other ways? How does the books serve them in a, a less direct monetary way?

Laura (32:37): Yeah, I love this question because this is really what it’s about for scholarly books. It’s the book itself is an investment of labor, of time, of possibly money, um, that you’re hoping will pay off in some other arena, not necessarily directly through, you know, your royalties or in advance. And I do wanna say there’s a little sidebar, like commercial publishing is not that much more lucrative. Yes, we know about the celebrities who get the six figure advances or more, um, but most people who are writers who are just, you know, writing trade books also have another job. Like they’re not making their complete income off of writing their books. Much like academics who, you know, often if they’re writing academic books have an academic position, um, where they’re making some a salary, you know, that is their main source of income. And so the investment of writing an ac academic book is often for that job. It’s, you might need to write a book in order to um, you know, pass your three year review or go up for tenure. Um, a book might be an expectation in your field, so you’re not writing the book ’cause you’re gonna make money on the book, you’re writing the book because you hope you can keep your job, um, as a part of having published that book. Um, and you know, I’ve worked with authors who already have tenure but are wanna go up for full professor, which is a significant, um, raise, uh, in income, you know, in their salary and they can use the book toward that. So they see the investment of the book as paying off indirectly in that other way. Um, there’s also, um, you know, other sort of financial opportunities that could come from having written a book. So if you are invited to give talks based on your research, um, you know, giving talks at universities doesn’t always pay that much. It sort of depends on how in demand you are and, and how much funding those universities have to pay speakers. But if you have research that is applicable in industry or policy, um, or places that have kind of other kinds of funding, you can command more money than you ever would make from the book itself, um, in speaker’s fees, um, or consulting fees or things like that. So, um, you can sort of think of the book as a strategic investment in your reputation and your platform that then would allow you to command higher fees in other venues.

Emily (35:14): Yeah, I spoke with, uh, an author recently, actually, she was self-published, um, who described her book as like a business card, like going out into the world in front of her and opportunities come back to her because people are reading and using the book, right? So it’s not necessarily about that money that’s made directly. That’s nice, that helps. But as you said, there’s much more opportunity could be depending on, on the subject of the book on the backend through these other mechanisms. Um, but yeah, thank you for giving us that like wider picture of like why people would go through this process, which clearly is very time consuming and, and very full of labor and, and not, um, immediately seeing much ROI financially from it. Um, yeah, that’s great. Yeah.

Laura (35:55): Yeah. And I’ll say, uh, you know, many scholars, intellectuals, you know, they just have an intrinsic desire to share their knowledge and what they have found and what they’ve spent these years studying and discovering and concluding. Um, so I would say the majority of people I work with are, the money’s a bonus, you know, but what they’re really trying to do is just like, get the work out there. Um, and the book is the way they do that.

Emily (36:20): I’m wondering, do you ever work with people who are not academics? Like I sometimes hear people describe themselves as like independent scholars or something like that. Like are, would they still be a type of author who would publish with Yes. Scholarly process?

Laura (36:33): Yes, absolutely. I do work with many, um, independent scholars, people who have know, retired from academic careers or, um, just decided not to pursue one for whatever reason. Um, I would say, and those are the people who are sort of the most, I intrinsically motivated to share the work, um, because yeah, like what’s the gain for them? They’re not really getting paid to write the book, getting paid much. Um, and, and any payoff from it would come like later down the road. So, um, I, you know, I have many clients who are in that position. I will say it’s, it’s, you may have a bit less to invest in the book, you know, if you don’t have funding from a university, uh, you know, a research grant or something like that. Um, so, uh, yet you, everyone has to sort of make their own calculation of what it’s worth to them to invest in the book upfront.

Dr. Laura Portwood-Stacer’s Contact Information

Emily (37:29): I see. Well, Laura, this interview has been so insightful. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and letting us know, um, all that you’ve learned and all that you’ve experienced through this publishing process. Would you please let people know how they can get in touch with you if they’d like to follow up?

Laura (37:44): Yeah, so I have a weekly newsletter, um, that’s probably the, the easiest place to find me. It’s the manuscript works newsletter. If you go to newsletter.manuscriptworks.com, um, you can get that, that shares lots of knowledge about scholarly book publishing and also some, you know, brief announcements of programs that I offer and um, ways that I support authors. Um, yeah, so that’s probably the best place to find me, but, uh, my more general home on the internet is just manuscriptworks.com.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (38:14): Excellent. And I’d like to conclude with the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for an early career PhD grad student, someone recently out of grad school or a postdoc? And that could be something that we’ve touched on in the course of this interview, or it could be something completely new

Laura (38:30): To understand the publishing ecosystem and where the money flows in and where it flows out and how much is gonna flow to you and be realistic about how that all works. Um, so I would not expect, I would not treat a book as, uh, a direct financial investment. You know, it may be a financial drain in many ways, but you think about the sort of broader context and, and what it might do for you.

Emily (38:54): Very good. I really think we’ve either done that in this interview or given people a really good head start on that process in the course of the interview. So Laura, again, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for agreeing to come on and um, I look forward to talking to you again soon.

Laura (39:06): Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Outtro

Emily (39:13): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

How This PhD Student and Her Higher-Earning Partner Manage Joint and Separate Finances

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In this episode, Emily interviews Tram Pham, a 3rd-year PhD student in economics at Uppsala University in Sweden. Tram describes the financial aspect of her relationship with her boyfriend, Markus, from discussing money on their first date to how they structure their joint and separate accounts now that they live together. Even though Tram is the lower earner, she came into the relationship with savings and has guided Markus into starting to save for joint goals, such as emergencies, vacations, and gifts. She knows that her future in academia is likely to require flexibility, so she saves for the unknown. Tram and Markus have learned how to moderate one another’s natural saver/spender tendencies so that they both plan for their finances and live in the moment.

Links mentioned in the Episode

How This PhD Student and Her Higher-Earning Partner Manage Joint and Separate Finances

Teaser

00:00 Tram: I try and always try to make our saving plans fun and interesting because for me, from the beginning, I’m more just focusing on saving, saving, saving, even though I don’t know what I’m saving for. And Markus is like focusing on living, living, living, just living at the moment. So right now we are trying at least to balance those things. Hey, I save, but also I don’t forget to live. And those savings will be spent on the things that I love to do or make my life more meaningful.

Introduction

00:36 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

01:04 Emily: This is Season 17, Episode 4, and today my guest is Tram Pham, a 3rd-year PhD student in economics at Uppsala University in Sweden. Tram describes the financial aspect of her relationship with her boyfriend, Markus, from discussing money on their first date to how they structure their joint and separate accounts now that they live together. Even though Tram is the lower earner, she came into the relationship with savings and has guided Markus into starting to save for joint goals, such as emergencies, vacations, and gifts. She knows that her future in academia is likely to require flexibility, so she saves for the unknown. Tram and Markus have learned how to moderate one another’s natural saver/spender tendencies so that they both plan for their finances and live in the moment.

01:51 Emily: The tax year 2023 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs can access them for free. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they sponsor this workshop for you and your peers? You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Thank you so, so much for doing so! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e4/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Tram Pham.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:16 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Tram Pham. She is a therapist. third year PhD student at Uppsala University in Sweden, uh, in economics. And we are going to talk today about finances in a relationship. And this is going to be exciting because Tram and her partner do something very different than what I do and what I’ve covered on the podcast in the past. So I like this new perspective. So Tram, would you please introduce yourself a little bit further? 

03:39 Tram: Thank you so much, Emily, for having me. Uh, I am Tram Pham, a PhD student. I am a student in economics at Uppsala University in Sweden, yeah, very far away. Uh, and, uh, I am doing research in labor and health economics. I am originally from Vietnam. Uh, as you said, currently I am staying with my boyfriend partner in Stockholm in Sweden. 

04:05 Emily: Excellent. Um, and your partner’s name is Markus, is that right? 

04:08 Tram: Yeah. So he is a Swedish, yeah. 

04:11 Emily: All right. And what does Markus do for his profession? 

04:15 Tram: So he is a machine learning engineer. And he is, uh, yeah, so he just had his master finish it two, three years ago. And now he’s working in a real job. 

04:28 Emily: Gotcha. But he spent some time in academia, so he understands. Well, we’ll get into it, right? So how did you two first meet? 

04:35 Tram: So, yeah, so we was introduced to each other through our mutual friend.

Early Financial Conversations With Your Partner

04:42 Emily: Awesome. And so when you started dating, when you first got together, how soon did conversations around finances or conversations around lifestyle, how did that start? 

04:53 Tram: So, uh, I am very conscious in finance and I have been reading a lot of books and also practicing finance independence for a long time. So I think that finance is a really important topic for me. So I brought it up in the first date. Yes. So the first day meeting Markus, I was asking him about his view about finance, how he is practicing, uh, with his own money. Of course, it’s not very in detail, but like just a brief perspective to see whether he also considered that finance is important or not. And in the second date, we asked more question about, Hey, what do you like to do in your life? And, uh, what do you think that finance can help you to achieve that? And how have you planned out and things like that? So yeah, very early in the dating process. 

05:47 Emily: Okay. I’m, I’m really curious about this now. Um, because the way you phrase that it sounded very interviewee, but is that how it, is that how it felt for him or for you in the moment? Or was it more like casual, like I’m going to ask a little subtle question about finances and, you know, 30 minutes later, maybe another little question, or was it really like, no, we need to be on the same page right now? 

06:09 Tram: Yeah. So now that you mentioned that, I think for me, it came out really naturally because I like talking about personal finance with my friends and things, but yes, with Markus, it’s felt like an interview, like I came in as a teacher or someone interviewing him about his perspective about finance. So from the beginning, he was a bit hesitant, of course. And also he was like, yes, but then I. I think that I explained it to him that, yes, I’m not coming here trying to like interview you or something, just that because I am more serious about relationship. I don’t want to play around. I’m coming and searching for a partner and commitment and things. And I think finance is important for a relationship. That’s why I’m asking these questions. So yeah, I think after my explanation, he became a little bit more open, but of course also not like, in very details, as I wished it could be, so.

07:11 Emily: And in these early conversations, what kind of answers were you getting? Like, were you seeing that he was kind of on the same page as you, although maybe a little bit more reticent to share? Or was it like, oh, no, I’m actually detecting some differences in practices or differences in values? 

07:26 Tram: Yes. So. I think that Markus know what is fire movement, what is a financial independence movement, but also in general, he and me, even, even though I am super interested in personal finance, but I don’t consider money as the most important part in my life. I just want to have the freedom and the opportunity to choose whenever I want to have. So I think for that, Markus and I was really on the same page. Like we think that yes, money is important because it allows us to, to live the life we want. And, but also in the just first few days, I could not ask in very detail about, Hey, how much you earn? Or like, what is your expenses? What is your saving? And that kind of thing. Just that On the surface, yes, it’s, it’s very similar. Hmm.

08:18 Emily: So, I haven’t been in the dating pool for a very long time, um, but what I remember reading in terms of like advice for talking about finances was to share first, like to share your, if you want to take that step with the person you’re dating, like, okay, we’re going to talk about our income or our debt or whatever. Like. You reveal first and you set the model and the tone. Is that what you did? Were you more sort of leading the way in the openness? 

08:42 Tram: Yeah, so the thing about Sweden is that I think that the gap between different incomes is not a lot. It’s not very much, right? And also kind of like pay and things like is kind of very transparent and also our mutual friend is also a very close friend to Markus and she and her husband also are doing PhD. So I think that Markus kind of has some sense about the salary range that I am in. So yes, I didn’t specifically say how much I earn, but I, I expect all I could hypothesize that he knew kind of not exact, uh, amount, but kind of the range. Yes. But for me, I had zero, zero clue about how much he’s earning. 

The Interplay Between Relationship, Financial, and Career Goals

09:28 Emily: So you mentioned earlier that Markus had a master’s you’re in your PhD program. And that one of your values, shared values was freedom, being able to do what you want to do, having money be a tool along that path. I’m wondering how you think about your being in a PhD program at this time, and maybe what your future career plans are and how that interplays with like the fire pursuit. And then the next layer on top of that, of course, is how Markus would feel about you being currently in academia or maybe in the future. So can you talk more about how you think about that with your finances and your career and the relationship and all that stuff? 

10:05 Tram: Um, so I think that I, I really love doing research. I love my job and everything like that. But I am also aware that I, I cannot earn a lot of money or like become a millionaire just being a researcher. So, uh, since my childhood, I, my parents had taught me to save money and that kind of thing a lot. So like, I am always a saver. Yeah, regardless of how much I earn, I usually try to save at least 10 percent or even sometimes more than 50%. And also because the prospect of PhD, especially after PhD, if we want to get a good job. we have to be willing to move. So all of these also went into my consideration that, hey, I need to save money because I don’t know where I would end up to be. And also, how about the cost of moving? And, uh, how about later if I want to have babies? If I move so much, I would not receive the social benefit and that kind of thing. So for me, saving is important. And I have always been practicing that. Uh, at the same time, I think that like, Sweden has a really good social assistance, uh, security and that kind of thing. So, usually, like, okay, so I am generalizing here, but I think at least with Markus and my friends, they don’t, they don’t save a lot. Because they don’t think that it’s necessary to save even. Because, uh, after the salary, a large, uh, a large part of your salary already go for the tax and which will be paid for your pension and unemployment insurance later. So at least in term of Markus, before meeting me, he had zero saving because he didn’t think that it’s important. Yes. He think that money is important, but maybe now he’s young and also in the tech sector, he’s earning a lot. So, uh, why should I save? I, I can do that later or something like that. So yes, so when we, uh, entered relationship, I already had some amount of saving, even though my salary is always much lower than Markus and he with large salary, but, uh, yes, he, he didn’t have any saving at that time. And. As I said, I was really very transparent and honest from the beginning, so I also brought up these topics with him from the first few days. Hey, I have to move a lot. Of course, I would love to stay in Sweden, but, uh, I’m not sure whether I have that option. After my PhD,and also, yes, my salary would generally be lower than yours in, in good times. I mean, assuming that he still has a job because yes, in fact, the turnover is also very high. Uh, he understand that. I think that’s the thing that I like so much about Markus also, really very open and also trying to learn things. So yes, because of that, even though he aware of all of these things, but he know that, as long as we are more suitable in our values, and we want to build a family together. It doesn’t matter. So, yeah. 

13:20 Emily: Okay. Yeah. So you’re preparing for the possibility of moving out of Sweden, um, depending on where the job opportunities are. And yeah, like that is, that is a really different, um, perspective, I think for people who are, you know, like your, your peers, maybe who are Swedish, like who are used to having that social safety net.  I mean, if you moved to the U. S., it’s going to be all on you. Um, right. So that’s just so interesting to think about, like, depending on that, but making that assumption that you’re always going to be living in that country and it’s always going to have the same kinds of benefits. And you’re introducing this, like, well, Maybe I won’t always live here and why not prepare for that like sort of uncertain or like the possibility of a change in the future. And I just think it’s so interesting as you’ve been talking how you’re the lower earning, uh, partner, but you have quite a bit of financial acumen. Um, and least maybe not now, but maybe when you started the relationship more so than Markus did. It depends, of course, on the things that we’ve been talking about, like whether or not it’s necessary to save or to what degree, depending on where you live and so forth. Um, but yeah, I just think it’s interesting, you know, you’re, you’re coming in with savings with the lower income and he doesn’t have that even with the higher income.

Combining Finances With Your Partner

14:27 Emily: So let’s fast forward a little bit. You two live together now, right? And you have some, some degree of joint finances. Can you talk about that process of sort of, uh, joining up more financially?

14:38 Tram: Mm hmm. So, yes, I think as you already mentioned, at the moment we have shared economy. So, um, how it happened is that when we was considering whether to move in or not, Uh, I talk with a lot of my friends about finance and how they are doing with their partner, whether they share economy or whether they separate it. So I think that most of my Swedish friends that I talk with, they have a separate, uh, economy. But most of the Asian friends that I talk with, they have shared economies. So I could hear a lot of pros and cons also about different perspectives. And personally, I think that I also prefer the joint economy. And then I discussed that with Markus, and I discussed why I think it’s a good thing. And because I think that we are living in one household, so it’s better to join. We also will be able to check and see what each other are doing. And if we have a shared, uh, goal of buying an apartment or later moving somewhere, all of these will need to be shared. So I think it will be much also transparent and honest. It’s, it’s, it’s good. And yes, as I said, from the beginning, Markus is really, really open and supportive. He just say, yeah, let’s test it out. I don’t know how it will be, but, uh, let, let’s try it. And if, uh, it doesn’t, um. If it’s not suitable for us, then we can adjust or even change to another method. So yeah, so far we have been practicing joint, uh, account, and I think that we are doing quite well on that. 

16:22 Emily: So I love that, uh, openness to experimentation. So that’s, yeah, it’s a great attitude. So you have, it sounds like. A joint account, is that right? Is it like joint checking, joint savings? 

16:35 Tram: For example, my salary will go directly to my separate account, and Markus’ salary will go to his separate account, but then we already calculated like a per month how much we need as a fixed expenses, like for the bills and for the groceries for the saving. So I think 90 percent of our joint salary will go to the joint account. So we have like 10 percent left. That means that 5 percent for me and 5 percent for him. So that we can just spend as our individual allowance, like if we want to buy gift for each other, or if we want to hang out with friends, so we don’t have to ask for each other, uh, opinions or something like that. So the 90 percent will be shared between saving, and yes, I can explain that later, but the saving and the bills, the grocery, and also another account called play account, like something that we can use together when we hang out together. And for us, we eat out every week once just so that, uh, yes, it’s, it’s also helps us to understand why money is important and also like. Yeah. Energize us. 

17:57 Emily: Okay. So what I’m hearing is that, um, your incomes start separate, but then almost all of them become combined, um, into this joint, joint checking and joint savings model. Um, so the separate, what you keep separate is very, a small percentage of your overall income. Um, and I think the, the listeners will like be curious about this because you mentioned that Markus has a higher salary than you do. How you both, I understand mechanically how it’s working, but how you both are like feeling about it or how he feels about it. Right. Because he’s. Subsidizing, you know, your lifestyle to a degree. So, like, have you had conversations about that?  

18:32 Tram: Yeah, yeah. So, uh, I think, yes, because that was also my concern from the beginning. Hey, I am having a much lower salary. Would it be fair for you also to, to give the majority of your salary? And so far, I would say that, let’s say, if our joint account is 100%, then I am contributing around 35 ish percent, and his one is 65%. Uh, yes, Markus agrees with that, of course, but also because he entered into the relationship with a small loan, also from his student loan. So he thinks that it would be fair for him to put more in the joint account because from that we also take out some part to pay for his private loan.

19:20 Emily: I see. Okay.

Commercial

19:24 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Savings Goals and Using Sinking Funds

20:16 Emily: So you mentioned that you have like a few different savings goals going on right now. Can you talk about how you are, like what you’re working towards and also how you are, um, maintaining finances within your relationship, not just how it’s structured, but how you are having conversations and communication around that.

20:33 Tram: Yes. So, I think for the saving goals, the biggest, uh, saving goals right now is, uh, the coming trip to the U. S. Next year, hopefully for my exchange. So for this, uh, we estimated that, hey, we would need around 10,000 USD. I mean, because I already received the scholarship for that, um, uh, exchange, but. 10,000 would be an extra thing in case things happen or also help us to visit other states because we will stay there only for six months. So we would want to utilize the time there as much as possible and also to help us to purchase the flight tickets and insurance, that kind of thing. So for that, Every month, so far, we, uh, try to save around 2,000. So whatever we do, it doesn’t matter. Whenever the money come in, we immediately take out 2,000 for the, for the saving account. So I think, uh, that goal will be completed next month or so, and then we will try to move in other long term savings, such as, like, wedding expenses or apartment expenses. And another, uh, smaller, smaller saving goals would be, like, uh, gifts, such as, like, Christmas is coming. And I think for Swedish people and also in my family, we have a tradition of giving each other gifts. So we are so like each month so far, we add in that around 100 or 200 USD so that we will have some, some amount to buy gifts for our loved one. Another one is a vacation. We also add in, um, yeah, I think 100 or 100 ish around every month, hopefully that next year or the year after that we can afford our trip to Japan. So, yeah, so those are the common and biggest saving account so far. And oh yes, and we also have emergency fund, if you also can count that as saving. Uh, yes, so we have around 500 or so. Uh, yes. Going for the emergency fund. Actually, so far, sometimes we would take out some money from the emergency in case we spend so much money in cooking or eating outside. But we are trying to stick to that as much as we can. 

23:00 Emily: I like that you’re, so the way that, the way that I talk about this is, is sinking funds or targeted savings funds. Um, and I like that so much of your saving is for like. Fun, exciting things that you get to do together, because I think that’s a really good introduction to saving for someone who maybe hasn’t practiced it or is less familiar with it. It’s like, it’s really just like planning. Like, do you want to have a December when you’re stressed because you have to buy all the gifts at once and you have no savings for it? Or would you rather build up gradually over time and be more generous because you’ve already planned for it? Like. It’s such a positive, you know, thing.

Plans for a Potential Visiting Fellowship at Harvard

23:36 Emily: Um, I want to hear more about your exchange in the U.S. Um, I’m so excited you’re going to be spending six months and you want to travel and so forth. Like, are you going to a particular university? Is it, you know, for research purposes? Just tell us more about, um, the sort of official, like, career wise reason that you’re doing the trip and then also what you plan to do for fun.

23:53 Tram: Uh, yes. So, uh, hopefully again, it also depends so much on the situation, but I will have a visiting fellow position at Harvard in Boston for six months. I’m still, I already applied and I got a scholarship from Sweden, but I still need to, uh, um, get the offer. Again, they have the possibility to reject still from Harvard. But if everything goes well, I will be there from January to June, like the spring semester. And most of the time, yes, I will be doing research in Boston area. And Markus also is going with me. So that, that will, that, that is a plus. Uh, but beside that, we also plan to visit California where my own sister is staying with her husband. And I also do have other friends there. Markus and me also plan to go to Texas where we can try out the real Texas food. We watch so much YouTube videos about that and maybe Mexico. So, yeah. Those are the plans so far, and I think, as you said, I try and we try to make our saving plans fun and interesting because for me, from the beginning, I’m more just focusing on saving, saving, saving, even though I don’t know what I’m saving for, and Markus is like focusing on living, living, living, just living at the moment, so right now we are trying at least to balance those things, hey, I save, but also I don’t forget to live, and those saving will be spent on the things that I love to do or make my life more meaningful.

25:35 Emily: Yeah, I love that approach. Um, it actually reminds me, I, I reread Die With Zero recently by Bill Perkins. Have you read it? 

25:41 Tram: Oh, not yet. Okay. 

25:43 Emily: Well, this is definitely a recommendation to you, um, because it just reminds me that like all the saving that we do, whether it’s for retirement or whatever, like pretty much all of it is for your own spending in the future. And hopefully to have a great lifestyle that you really enjoy in the future, uh, maybe some of it is leave a legacy, right? For other people, but probably primarily for most people who are not super high earners, it’s like to provide for yourself in the future. Um, but it’s not all about the future. Um, it’s also about living in the present. So it’s really nice that you do have that balance, but it sounds like it’s not really causing a lot of conflict, right? It’s like a, a healthy, um, I’m going to, you know, moderate you and you’re going to moderate me in terms of your like, you know, um, natural preferences. So I really like that. I’m so excited. I hope you get to do that exchange and that you get to do the traveling that you want to. I’m curious, is Markus going to continue working during those six months or is he taking like a leave of absence? 

26:37 Tram: So I think that’s a blessing. thing also because his company allow him to work online during that period of time. I think that is also a thing that I like so much, uh, about his job. I mean, the flexibility to work from home or online sometimes, of course, you cannot check like that for two years or three years, but, uh. If you can explain the reason and if you still can maintain the quality of your job, you have that possibility. So yeah, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s good that we can be there together. 

27:12 Emily: And that’s like a really kind of fire thing, right? Of like having the financial flexibility to work somewhere else if you want to for a while to set up your job so you have that flexibility. Like. Yeah, that’s awesome.

Communication Practices for Maintaining Finances in Your Relationship

27:22 Emily: Okay. I asked you a way too complicated question earlier. The second part of that was, um, what are your like practices around communication and finances, uh, for like maintenance purposes today? 

27:32 Tram: Hmm. Okay. So I think I, I must say that the foundation of everything is that we already kind of agree with each other that we will be very transparent and honest with each other from the first, from, from everything. And from the first few days, we already had that kind of condition. So, um, yes, even though finance topic is kind of really sensitive, but, uh, we bring it up whenever we think that, Hey, for example, if I look at the joint account and I see like. Markus spend 20 or 50. So usually when we spend something, we try to write out, like when we transfer the money, we try to write out the reason why we’re spending that money. But sometimes the Markus would forget. I usually don’t. Uh, so I would say, Hey, I’m looking at the money today, it seemed like you are spending 50 somewhere. Uh, did you have something fun to do or did you eat something nice or something like that? So we would bring it up to each other and ask to know, Hey, where are the money is going? Because for me, I would be very frustrated if I don’t know where the number is going. And at the end of the month, I’m like, Hey, why are we? In short of money, why, what is going on? Like, should we readjust the budgeting things or things like that? And another thing is that every month when the salary comes, we will sit down and we call that like finance days. So we will try to discuss, Hey, this month we have spent this much on this, this, this, it seemed like we eat a lot. Or it seems like we spend a lot on buying clothes or something like that. Should we adjust something? And, uh, so far, I think it goes super well for us and, uh, to have, um, so usually what we do is we have some fun things to do. When we discuss finance, usually we could eat out in a restaurant and when we were waiting for the food to come, we would starting discussing finance or like we say, okay, first we sit here, we discuss finance and after that we can go for sauna or like a beer or something like that. So we try to incorporate some fun activities again to go in so that, like, especially for me, it’s already become a habit. But also I agree that from the beginning, Markus would find it a bit difficult and also, hey, why every time about money, money, money. So to reduce that frustration, we try to incorporate things that we would like to do and also talk about the topics, constantly discuss with each other, being transparent and honest. I think that helps so much. Another thing we also have been practicing is that we try to celebrate our wins, even though sometimes it’s super small. So for example, last week or so, I received a small scholarship. So we also went out to eat, even though every week we already go out and eat, and in the same week Markus could sell his computer, the one he doesn’t need to, need to use anymore. So we also celebrate that. So actually last week we went out and eat three times. Uh, but I think it’s, it’s, it’s good. It give us some motivation that, hey, we, we really enjoy life and, uh, we have the meaning and we like to do things together. 

31:00 Emily: And I, I’m sensing that that is coming from Markus’s side, right? Like if you, like when you weren’t with him, when you were single, if you had a financial win, were you celebrating that or were you just like, great, it goes on my savings? 

31:11 Tram: I do not think so. I just like, Oh, you did great. That’s all I would do. But yeah, yes, like literally celebrate and go out and buy something nice for ourselves. I think I’m also learning so much from Markus. Yeah. 

31:25 Emily: And it just creates that again, like the positive cycle, right? Of like, we did something positive and we get an immediate, like nice reward to it and it encourages you to keep going. And yeah, I think that’s just beautiful. So what I was hearing about for your communications was that you have at the top of the month, you have like a planning period. Um, and then you have maybe just light check ins throughout to make sure you’re sort of, Oh, was this part of the plan? We need to adjust the plan. Um, But I like that balance. So it’s not all like reactive. It’s not all like, Oh no, we overspent. How did this happen? Blame, blame, blame. You know, it’s, it’s more like, okay, we’re, we’re getting on the same page and then we’re just going to sort of check in and make sure that everything’s going fine. And then you have that reset for the next month where you plan again, but it’s also not just planning. It’s not just like, okay, this is what we’re going to do. And we have no idea whether it happened or not. Right. You have to do like both those sides of process. So I like that you’re doing that together. Um, yeah, it reminds me, my husband and I were both pretty involved with our finances when we were both in graduate school, but I would say in the years since then, he’s kind of let me like do what I want. And like, I will ask him questions like, Hmm, okay. You spent 75 at Home Depot. What, what was that? And he’ll be, oh, remember I bought this thing. Okay. Okay. As long as we’re not like spending for spending sake at Home Depot, now that we’re homeowners, that’s the kind of problems we have. Um, okay. Well, this has been such a fun conversation and I’m so glad that you shared these elements of your relationship with us. It sounds so fun as we’ve been talking about. 

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

32:49 Emily: As we wrap up here, would you please share with us your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve already touched on in the interview or it could be something completely new. 

33:00 Tram: So I think I would say that, yes, maybe learn to save, even though the PhD salary is not that high, but I think that, uh, saving give us the freedom and the liberation, literally to choose and also in the future. We don’t know what will happen. But at the same time, I think this I’m also learning like saving, but also do not forget to live, like try to do something fun, even though it’s just a small thing, but also make you feel like, oh, the money I’m earning really bring the meaning. So by that you can keep going in a long time instead of like, drop out in the middle of, of the journey. 

33:42 Emily: yeah. Great point. Very well said. Thank you so much for coming on Tram, and it was lovely to to meet you and thanks for volunteering. 

33:49 Tram: Thank you so much for having me.

Outtro

33:57 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Navigating Grad Student Finances While Undocumented

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In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Ana Romero Morales, a counseling psychology PhD and a financial coach through Brewing Dinero. Ana specializes in undocumented people and mix-documentation families, having gone through undergrad and graduate school as an undocumented student herself. Emily and Ana deep-dive into how documentation status affects graduate school funding and the considerations prospective graduate students should have during application and admissions seasons. They also list underutilized resources available on campus to help all graduate students balance their budgets. Ana also cautions financial coaches and content creators about knowing the boundaries of their expertise and when clients and audiences should be referred for professional mental health counseling.

Links mentioned in the Episode

Navigating Grad Student Finances While Undocumented

Teaser

Ana (00:00): And so I think that by the time I got to grad school, it was a different experience. Like I knew exactly how to talk about my situation, how to ask for money. By then, I knew that universities have money somewhere, somewhere there’s a pocket of money that they can dip into to help you.

Introduction

Emily (00:20): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (00:49): This is Season 17, Episode 3, and today my guest is Dr. Ana Romero Morales, a counseling psychology PhD and a financial coach through Brewing Dinero. Ana specializes in undocumented people and mix-documentation families, having gone through undergrad and graduate school as an undocumented student herself. Ana and I deep-dive into how documentation status affects graduate school funding and the considerations prospective graduate students should have during application and admissions seasons. We also list underutilized resources available on campus to help all graduate students balance their budgets. Ana cautions financial coaches and content creators about knowing the boundaries of their expertise and when clients and audiences should be referred for professional mental health counseling.

Emily (01:41): The tax year 2023 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. I do license these workshops to universities, but in the case that yours declines your request for sponsorship, you can purchase the appropriate version as an individual. Go to PFforPhDs.com/taxreturnworkshop/ to read more details and purchase the workshop. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e3/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Ana Romero Morales.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:48): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Ana Romero Morales. She has a PhD in counseling psychology and also works serving in the financial area as well as a side hustle. And her brand is called Brewing Dinero. I actually met Ana at FinCon this past October in 2023, and we ran into each other just about at the very tail end of the conference, the last event the last night, and I just knew we had to talk further the podcast. So that is what we’re bringing to you today. And Ana, thank you so much for joining me. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

Ana (03:21): Thank you so much. Yes, I’m very happy that as I was running to the bathrooms to, you know, catch myself before I peed myself, that we got a chance to, to meet one another. As you said I have a PhD in counseling psychology and my biggest area of focus is working with undocumented and mixed status families. And similarly in my side hustle, I actually started Brewing Dinero with the goal of increasing bilingual financial education specific to the first generation undocumented and mixed status communities. So definitely that’s my, my population of passion.

Ethical Boundaries: Personal Finance and Mental Health

Emily (04:05): Excellent. I know that’s gonna resonate with like so many of the listeners. Some of them may be undocumented, but a lot of them are gonna be first generation for sure. So I’m really glad to have you on for this interview. And so I was really curious because of your background in psychology and understanding mental health, I was wondering how you react or how you respond when you see financial people like me delving into like talking about money mindset or like this other kind of like mental or emotional areas of money. Like how do you, how do you think that we’re doing with that? Or how do you react or how would you how would you present it if you were doing it?

Ana (04:43): Yeah, so I think it’s true what, what they say. And when I was studying in college and trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, that like psychology is in everything. And I think one of the great things about social media is that now we are able to reach a wider audience and talk about subjects that maybe back in the day you would only ever hear in the classroom or if you were someone who went to therapy, you would get exposed to to the language um and understanding of, of mental health. And even nowadays, there’s so many books with very catchy phrases that I remember my sister told me about and she and I was like, yes, this is all psychology, that it’s absolutely all psychology. And same thing in the financial world. I think it’s wonderful to see all of this financial content talking about money, mindset being positive and, and thinking positive about money and working through financial trauma and also at the same time as someone who went through many, many years of schooling and ethics and all of that sometimes I wonder also the other side of it, if anyone can call themselves a counselor or anyone can call themselves a trauma specialist. And I think about it from like an ethical standpoint of like, well, what if the people you’re working with truly have trauma or truly need something that you can’t provide? Which is understandable, right? Like if you have no educational background, I wouldn’t expect you to. But sometimes when people are uninformed about the difference between a psychologist, a therapist, a counselor and someone online, it gets very blurry and very messy. And so I think in some ways I’ve seen it done well where people are very much clear at the beginning like, I am a financial counselor, this is what I do. I talk about money and how it affects your life and how we can budget and pay off debt and all of that. And if there is any mental health concerns, here are resources or here’s where I can send you to to make sure that one, we’re we’re being thoughtful, that we’re being transparent, but also that we’re making sure that we’re not taking advantage of people who have maybe no knowledge of that. And so I think that’s my only thing. It’s wonderful in many ways. And also we have to be very mindful of the mental health implications that can have for, for the populations that we’re working with. Mm-Hmm.

Emily (07:22): And I’m thinking about this now, from the perspective of a consumer of this kind of information, you have to be mindful that when you see someone on social media or listen to a podcast like this, like the person is talking like one to many. And there are some issues that are gonna be better tackled by a professional, as you said, in a one-on-one setting. And so as a consumer, you just have to be aware like, is this something that can be solved by this person who has no awareness of who I am at all? Or do I really need to seek out a different resource here? Because there’s a lot more going on than just money stuff.

Ana (07:54): Yeah. And I think that’s hard, right? ’cause It’s like the responsibility isn’t on one versus the other, right? You, you wanna be a mindful, you know, informed consumer and you also wanna be the person who’s providing a service where you are also mindful in understanding of what you’re offering and being able to express that. ’cause I mean, it’s like even in therapy when I work with people, sometimes people hate the conversation of mindfulness and, and maybe for them it’s more therapeutic to go to church or to talk to their pastor or to go to the gym, right? And so there’s so many different avenues of how people find care. Same thing in the financial world, like maybe you don’t wanna talk to a financial advisor, maybe you do wanna work with a coach and they provide the thing that you need, which is wonderful. And then as the coach being aware of like, when is what I’m offering not enough for this person? Or do they, could it be harmful to them if they need something that greater than what I can offer?

Financial Trauma

Emily (08:59): What are some of those areas like you mentioned earlier, like financial trauma, like what are some areas where it might seem like it’s presenting as like a money issue, but it’s really something else that needs to be worked on in one of those professional one-to-one scenarios. Can you give us an example or two there?

Ana (09:18): Sure. for financial trauma, like I could, you know, I see a lot of people who work on maybe their debt, right? Or like, they are so triggered at, you know, the mail coming in with all these, you know, credit card companies or debt collection that are coming after you and you just can’t handle it, right? You’re avoiding it, it’s triggering, you’re losing sleep over it. And maybe you have a coach who’s walking you through that, okay, let’s work through it. Let’s go one at a time with each of the things that are being mailed to you. Let’s look at writing a letter to the debt collector, right? And so they’re walking you through those things and now you’re noticing like, great, my sleep is, is better, my stress levels are down. I’m not as anxious about it. I’ve learned some techniques on how to manage that anxiety um wonderful. That is very different where you’re going through that stuff and you’re like, well, no, I’m still having a lot of triggers, or I’m, I’m now deeply depressed. And like, it’s not just that I can’t open the envelopes, it’s that I’m also not eating and I’m also not going to work and I’m also not, you know, different aspects of your life are being impacted by whatever trauma you’re experiencing. And that is something where like, as the money person, sure I’m helping with the money part, but all the other things seem to require a much more intensive intervention by like a therapist or, or someone else. So, you know, like it’s knowing where that, where that boundary starts to shift.

The Financial and Educational Experiences of an Undocumented Student

Emily (10:58): Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for that like example. Okay, I want to go now to your special area of interest, undocumented, mixed, documented families and, you know, kind of your own personal journey in this area as well. So back when you were undocumented how, how did finances like strike you? I, I bet it was intimidating in a lot of different ways. And what were some resources that like you availed yourself of at the time and then may maybe also someones that you didn’t know that you could have accessed then, but you now tell people in your community, oh, don’t forget, you still have access to this even though you’re undocumented.

Ana (11:36): Yeah. So I found out I was undocumented when I was 17. I am first in my family to go to college, so I was listening to my friends and teachers saying like, make sure you apply to FAFSA. FAFSA is free money, financial aid. And I’m like, great, I’m gonna do that. And then the time came and I found out like, well actually I can’t apply because I don’t have a social security number. And back then in 2007, very different from now there were no resources. People didn’t talk about being undocumented. It was very much just like finances, like a very taboo subject. You don’t talk about it. And so I didn’t have the language at that point to express what I was experiencing and how to ask for help. And so I ended up going to the school that accepted me, didn’t ask me for any documentation like other schools did out of fear. And I felt like I was, you know, trying to keep my head above water for four years, just trying to figure out the financial aid system and coming to terms with like that they too did not know anything. Like I remember I got a research grant that I applied for with the help of a professor and I couldn’t get any of the money because they didn’t know how to give it to me without having documentation. I mean, I technically still used it ’cause they used it to pay for other things. So it was one of those things where like, I don’t know what I’m doing. The institution doesn’t know how to help me. And so I think I, I think just like other people who have like their financial experiences, like I just learned that like money exists, but it’s not there for me. And so I need to find other ways of making money, other ways of financing my education. And so I learned from other people who are undocumented. I’m like, how did you do this? And they’re like, oh, like, you get a scholarship or you talk to the professors in this way using this jargon to sort of get the point across without necessarily exposing yourself. And so I think that by the time I got to grad school, it was a different experience. Like I knew exactly how to talk about my situation, how to ask for money. By then I knew that universities have money somewhere, somewhere there’s a pocket of money that they can dip into to help you if they want to. So I think, you know, it, it’s a very difficult system just like any other one. But when you’re undocumented, there’s a lot more like, you know, personal things that also come into play. So now after going through a master’s program and then going through a PhD program, like now I’m very aware of how resources work, especially in the California system. So when I work with grad students who have come to me being like, I’m undocumented. I don’t know how I’m gonna pay for grad school. I’m like, all right, let’s sit down. Let’s look at scholarships, grants, fellowships that don’t require status, but also how do we talk to your department in a way that can help you maybe access money that’s, there might be somewhere that someone’s willing, willing to give you. So I think it’s been, it’s been a learning curve and policies are constantly changing. So I think that’s also something where I have to keep myself up to date with, with things both at a federal, at a state and at a local level.

Fellowships, Scholarships, and Employment for Undocumented and DACA Students

Emily (15:07): Well this is so fascinating to me ’cause you may be aware I’m a total like tax nerd and so talking about like different types of income sources is like really, really up my alley. So I really, I would love to drill down on this a little bit more. So what I’m hearing is that some fellowships and scholarships don’t require you to have documentation. Is that right?

Ana (15:25): Yes.

Emily (15:25): At both at the undergraduate and at the graduate level.

Ana (15:28): Mm-Hmm, .

Emily (15:30): What about employment?

Ana (15:33): Mm-Hmm.

Emily (15:33): And maybe this is different with like DACA versus maybe when you were first going through this. Can you explain about like, would someone is undocumented be able to get like a research assistantship at the graduate level?

Ana (15:44): Sure. So yes, if you are a DACA recipient, which means you are eligible to get a driver’s license and a social security number specific to work that is very different, right? That’s, I always tell people like, if you have DACA, you just gotta go about it like you’re a citizen where you don’t even have to disclose that you’re, you’re someone who has DACA. You just simply provide your social security number. You know, and so you’re fine. The, the one thing that gets tricky with DACA is that you are reapplying to that every two years. So like you as the person have to be on top of it of like, I gotta make sure I apply for the renewal of my DACA in time. So there’s no overlap between your DACA expires and now you, you know, have to tell your job you can’t work or grant or however that works in your department. So that’s one thing to consider. If you’re undocumented, you don’t have a social security number, but the IRS doesn’t care what your status is. They just want their taxes paid. So the IRS created the individual tax identification number, it’s ITIN for short. And that is what people can use to basically file their taxes every year because the IRS knows that people are working somehow whether that’s under the table or however you wanna call it, the IRS still wants their cut. And so I talk to students about using their ITIN to sort of see if the university or your professor advisor is willing to hire you as almost like a contractor, right? Maybe the grant allows for that to happen, right? I think it gets very nitty gritty ’cause every program is willing to do these things or not. Um so I think it, it’s very much an individual basis of whether, you know, if your professor’s like I have this pot of money, I have to, of course, you know, people above me need to know who’s it going to, how is it being filed? And so if you have a tax, your your ITIN, great, I contracted you to do this job for me and all I need is your ITIN number to be able to do that. So that’s always an option that I tell students to talk to their advisors to, to see if that’s one way. I know other people have been like, we have this extra money that we can use for whatever, I’m gonna give it to you as a stipend or a scholarship or a grant, right? It’s not something that you don’t have to pay back in order to have.

Emily (18:24): So it sounds like there’s a question mark there around will this person be able to be straight up W2 employed? That’s gonna depend on maybe the state, the university, different policies if they’re fully, fully undocumented. But maybe there’s this contractor like work around. I, I’m more, I’m more interested I guess I, I know the taxes have to be paid . I’m more interested on the, like how does the university handle this like side of things.

Ana (18:49): Yeah.

Emily (18:49): But I totally agree with you. I’ve seen that flexibility too of like, oh okay. Like for instance, when people ask for, when they negotiate for an increase in stipend, a lot of times their base stipend might be coming from a research assistantship and the university doesn’t have flexibility in the department or whatever, doesn’t have flexibility in how much they’re gonna pay there. But they might say, oh, we have this other pot of money that we have freedom to use in however we want. We’ll give you a little top up fellowship, you know, on top of that employee situation. And so I can totally see how funds could be, oh this student has a special situation, we have a little bit of flexibility on our side, we’re gonna work with them and get them the money that they need to be here. Even if it’s not the regular course of action we would do for other people.

Ana (19:29): Yeah. And I think, yeah, and it’s hard because I think now with policies changing from 2016, right? DACA is something that students who are entering the education system or who might wanna go to grad school, DACA may not be an option. And so I think it’s, it’s forced people to be creative and try to find different ways to help students. So yeah, it’s unfortunate ’cause if you’re undocumented you can’t be a W2 employee, right? ’cause the university can’t hire you in that category. But there’s so many other places or other ways that you can do it. I mean I know at the undergraduate level they have in California College Corps, which is like a program you apply to, you’re a volunteer for like nonprofits or schools or whatever, but you get paid for that service. And so you know where there’s a will, there’s a way, right? If people really want to help, they figure out other ways of doing it. And I know every state is different on how they are about those things. California has been doing it for quite a while. So I think they have more flexibility with that versus other states or other programs.

Commercial

Emily (20:39): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Deciding Which Universities to Apply for as an Undocumented or DACA Student

Emily (21:31): Yeah, just one more follow-up question on that point. I don’t know if you, you probably sometimes work with like prospective graduate students, people who are choosing what schools to apply to deciding where they wanna attend. Do you, are you able to advise them at all about like, oh this state’s, like you said, California more experience in this area, they’re gonna be more familiar with your situation. Maybe definitely apply to a school or two there to give you some options. But do you give them guidance on like state level, you know, kind of decision making?

Ana (21:56): Yeah, I think one of the things I have found is that, you know, when I was in, when I was applying for grad school, a lot of people would be like, you need to go to the state, you know, in the middle of nowhere who have so much more extra funding who can give you the full ride. And I think that’s great, right? If that’s an option that you have. Wonderful. And also as someone who works with undocumented people or DACA recipients and who has, you know, gone through that phase, I’m like sometimes living in those states right there, there’s a sense of safety, there’s a sense of like there’s no community there. If the school’s not informed about DACA and things like that. Like is it worth it to you to have to be the person to educate and figure that out or stay in California or any other states, you know, where they do have a system already in place because grad school is already so hard and so draining that sometimes, you know, the money is important but also other aspects. And so I help people in that sense. Like I tr- I definitely when I applied to Boston, I had to be, I had to talk to financial aid, be like, you know, in-state tuition out-of-state tuition, do you guys have the DREAM Act? Which is the financial aid program for undocumented students. You know, I going through, especially if their website is not up to date with that information, right? You have to be the one to be in the position to educate other people. So it’s really going through all those multiple aspects of deciding on grad school, not just the, you know, the advisor that you want and and the degree that you want and area study, but all the other dimensions of your wellbeing as well.

Emily (23:43): Absolutely. So you would say this is something that has to come up once they’ve given me the go ahead, they’ve admitted you, then you bring up, hey, are you gonna be able to accommodate me in this way, in that way this is what my status is. Those conversations have to be had before decision day it sounds like.

Ana (23:58): Yeah, so definitely when I, you know, and everyone’s different, right? ’cause In California I feel like it’s, it’s a less taboo to talk about immigration status. But I know some people are not comfortable and so I’m like okay, you don’t have to put it in your letter, you don’t have to write it in your personal statement that you’re undocumented. But definitely when it comes time to talk about the financial aspect of your, of five t- plus years of being here at this university, like you want to know where they’re at with helping you. Maybe they don’t know much but they’re so willing to figure it out with you and help you. Great. Versus other universities who are like, yeah, no, we’re not gonna do anything with that. You can come here but we’re not able to give you any, you know, financial assistance. Then that’s a whole different conversation.

Student Loans for Undocumented and DACA Students

Emily (24:47): That makes sense. And one thing you haven’t mentioned so far is student loans. So I’m wondering, are student loans at the federal, let’s take federal and private separately. Is that not an option for people who are undocumented? Is it an option?

Ana (25:00): Yeah.

Emily (25:00): For people who are DACA recipients?

Ana (25:02): So from what I know, no, like, you know, federal student loans are not accessible. I think it’s only been a couple of years where like there are a lot of companies out there who provide private loans, which of course come with its own stuff, right? Higher interest rates, all of that stuff. I do know that at some universities, again California ’cause that’s where I’m mostly I went to schools. Some universities create their own loan system to give to undocumented or DACA recipient students. Not everywhere and not, I think at my school they had it at the undergraduate level, but they didn’t have it for grad students at that point. So no, like the, the loan situation tends to be more private based. You can definitely apply for the DREAM Act and I think it’s dependent on state’s, not nationwide. So it’s like fafsa but for undocumented students where you can apply and again that’s very state specific. ’cause If you went to school in California, you know you went through high school there, right? They have way more options for you as an in-state student versus someone else coming from a different state and coming to study in California.

Emily (26:27): I see. Yeah. I’m just, I’m trying to think about the safety uh net or the safety release valve that is student loans. Like for, especially for people who you know, maybe they’re first generation, they don’t have family that can help them out financially. If they get into a tough situation, where can they turn? Right? Okay, the stipend isn’t sufficient. What’s the next ? What’s the backup plan there? If it’s not your family, is it private student loans? You know, it’s just something you have to think through when you are looking at a stipend that is borderline enough to support you. You know, like where’s that, where’s that emergency fund gonna come from? Where’s, where’s that backup?

Ana (27:01): Yeah. And I think, you know, I think one of the great things is that even though you can’t access like federal student loans at the state level, there is a lot of money that is there that is sometimes untapped. Because again, if you’re undocumented and you don’t know and the people around you aren’t educating you on those things, how are you gonna know? But there is a lot of, at least at the state funded level, a lot of financial aid that can, that you can have access to. And you never know, right? Some universities have private scholarships, donors money that doesn’t have, you know, as many like rules about how they can use it. And I think that can also help your advisor, right? If your, if your advisor might have access to different pockets of money or know of organizations who can help, right? I think it’s just a matter of asking and and the other people willing to kind of do some of that work with you.

Resources for Undocumented and DACA Graduate Students

Emily (28:02): Well that was fascinating, thank you so much for that deep dive there. Were there any other like resources that you wanted to point out to pe- let’s say graduate students who are undocumented?

Ana (28:14): Yeah so I think especially when you’re in grad school, I know there’s often this like mantra of like your PhD should be fully covered and everything, which I totally agree. But I also tell people maybe your first year is covered and then the second year about figuring out where else you can get the money from and it’s just like undergrad scholarships. Like there’s money everywhere. I think it’s just about sitting and dedicating yourself to even applying to the $500 scholarship or the, you know, however much amount. But yeah, a lot of graduate student programs have their own like databases where they have scholarships, grants, fellowships. I highly always tell people like look through your databases. You never know what’s in there. And especially if you’re undocumented, usually they have filters where you can kind of put citizenship as not a requirement. Um so I can funnel it down at the same time I’ve had the experience where I look at scholarships or fellowships or grants and they don’t really say, or they say you’re a US resident, which could mean you are a US citizen or it can mean you’ve lived in the United States right? And have a US address. And so that’s enough to, that’s enough to apply. The same thing with bank accounts. Sometimes like they say like you have to be a US resident to open a high yield savings account. I always have to call and be like, what do you mean by that? Because that doesn’t tell me anything.

Emily (29:46): I think that’s great advice to always that that term resident is so difficult and it means different things in different context. So absolutely just asking that question ’cause you never wanna rule yourself out, right? At least ask and let them tell you. No,

Ana (29:56): Exactly. I will say, ’cause I was just remembering I think if you are undocumented or a DACA student, especially for student loan access, you can access a wider net. But I think with that you have to have someone who’s willing to co like be the co-signer. And the co-signer has to be a US citizen or permanent residence. So I always tell people that’s an option. But again, it’s a very delicate one. Like you have to have someone that you trust who’s willing to go to bat for you, who has a good credit score and has the income guidelines, right. And all the other stuff. But I even tell people like especially at the university level, go to financial aid, you never know what financial aid has to offer you as an undocumented or DACA recipient. They might know of someone, of someone of someone who found some way to get a student fully funded at a graduate level. I’ve heard of it. And so everyone’s situation is slightly different when it comes to status, but there might be something in there that can help.

Emily (31:05): Yeah, definitely. I think that’s the same kind of guidelines that are for international students. So like it’s not impossible to get a student loan, it’s just more difficult if you, your family’s not in the US you know, et cetera.

Ana (31:17): Yeah. So I mean if if they have a whole system for international students right there ha- there is definitely some for students who’ve been living here forever.

Emily (31:28): Yes. Okay. Let’s talk more now about university level resources that you’ve either used yourself or that you’ve just observed other grad students using that can help them. Let’s see. There’s the phrase like sometimes there’s more month than money, right? And so how can they get to the end of that month using some resources that the university provides?

Ana (31:49): Yes. I think one of the great things that I’m always reminded every time I’ve left the university, whether was a undergrad and then my master’s program and then now my PhD is yes. How much resources there are there that you can access that people don’t think about. So when I was in grad school, I swear there was food every day of the week somewhere on campus. It wasn’t systematically. I think nowadays I have apps where like students can literally look up where these places are. When I lived in the graduate student dorms, like I had my schedule on like Monday they have bagels in the dorms. Wednesdays they have coffee and bagels at the graduate student lounge. And in between was I would often go to the graduate student resource center to do homework there. I worked there for a while so I knew they had coffee, I knew they had snacks. We had a writer’s room where the whole point was for you to go and be in absolute silence working on your dissertation or your thesis. And they always had snacks and coffee available or tea. And so I think for me, sure it wasn’t a full meal, but it saved some money to go and be able to get these free snacks. ’cause I lived in a town that was very expensive in California. Food banks, I think grad, you know, I think grad students often feel guilty or feel like they can’t use the food bank because food bank, you know, they’re like, well I have my tuition paid for and maybe I’m getting you know, some extra stipend as a ta. But I’m like, that doesn’t, that isn’t enough. Like you still are probably not making enough. And so I always encourage students, I’m like, there’s no shame in going to the food bank at all. If anything, that’s where I got actual vegetables and produce and I would go to the food bank. So there, that’s one avenue. I used a lot of like the gym resources, like sure we all should get our heart rates up and work out, but like using the showers, using their amenities. Like you’re, I always tell people I’m like, you’re technically paying for this, right? Like you’re paying for tu- tuition fees and res life fees. I’m like, you’ve, you are paying into all these things that you have at university. Like use ’em to your benefit. So those were ones that I really, that I think most people don’t think about when they think about being a student of like all these different resources. I remember they would have these like events where they would pay you. Like if you came and wrote a part of your dissertation, they would pay you for that. At the end I was like, that’s amazing. You have to write your dissertation so why not get paid for it at the end. So yeah, just really look at what your graduate, you know, student admissions or the graduate student group resource would just have all these benefits that sometimes people didn’t use, right? Parents, they were childcare grants. I used to work for the non-traditional student resource center and we would literally put on events where we would provide free childcare and make it so it, the point was for parents to other parents to get together and get to know one another. But sometimes parents would be like, instead of going to Chili’s to hang out with other parents, I’m gonna go study or I’m gonna go run errands while I know my kid is being watched, you know, by staff at the university. So you know, there, there’s all these little things, right? If you need, if you have to take a test and you need someone to watch your kid, there are grants for that. So I think wherever you are in your life when you’re in grad school, there’s definitely resources that can be geared towards your needs.

Emily (35:37): And I would say there’s another kind of secondary benefit, well you kind of just mentioned it with like the parent example of when you’re going out to these seminars or hanging out in this lounge or whatever is like you’re meeting other graduate students. You’re getting each know them, you’re networking. Like if you’re just in your lab or your office like all day every day and you never go out of it like how many people are you gonna meet? That’s not really maximizing the professional development and also personal development aspects of your graduate student experience. So I would say just like get into all the listservs, like all the groups that are relevant to you that are of interest to you. If they have food at their events, it’s a bonus. But just like get out there and do things and and meet people. This is kind of, I’m speaking to myself a little bit ’cause this is one of my re- regrets from graduate school is just like keeping my head down a little bit too much when I should have been cultivating relationships, which is really one of your main takeaways out of graduate school is the people that you’ve been around during that time.

Ana (36:29): Yeah. And, and it’s very easy to be like, I’m a psychology student. I only know people in my department, which is like probably five or six people right in your year or years above you. And then yeah, you forget like, oh yeah, there’s an engineering school and there’s a law school and there’s all these other departments of students who are all going through this experience of grad school together. Which is why I loved working for graduate admissions and, and creating events for grad students. ’cause That was the one way I was like, wow, I get to meet and see other people from different places who talk about different things other than mental health. And so and those are have been great relationships where I can, you know, I follow them on social media and kind of see that the work they still, you know, are doing either still in their program or outside of their program.

Emily (37:21): One more benefit I wanted to mention is checking out your health insurance slash dental vision, whatever kind of insurances you get and making sure that you are maximizing all of those. Like maybe they have like some preventative, you know, health kind of bonuses or whatever. I remember I got paid for, like if I reported that I ate like a certain amount of vegetables, like every week I got paid like a dollar or two or something per week at the end of the year. It actually like literally was one of the ways that I got like vegetables into like a habit in my, in my diet. But I Do you have any examples like that of like insurance related benefits?

Ana (37:58): Oh my god. I had the best insurance while I was in grad school when I was a teaching assistant and working for the university. I had my health insurance covered and because of the town I lived in they had everything on campus. Like I’d go to the dentist on campus, the eye doctor on campus. I had all these like body aches and things that I’m pretty sure were stress related, but I went to pt, physical therapy they had massage, you know, like services. Yeah, I had the best healthcare for sure in grad school and it was pretty expensive, so it was nice not to pay for it. So yeah, I think that was a great benefit actually. They also would have someone on campus, I wanna say it’s CalFresh who literally would help students apply for food stamps and things like that. Which again, I’m like, no one thinks about that as a grad student. Sometimes like you hear about that from people who are like have families or you know, are working professionals and I’m like, well we are working too. Maybe we’re just not getting paid as much as other people. So those are all services that I think universities especially just do better about teaching their grad students of like, yeah, you guys probably aren’t making enough and you qualify for food stamps. Let’s help you apply for that so that you’re not surviving off, you know, free pizza or bagels every week and you actually get some like healthy fruits and vegetables.

Emily (39:31): Definitely. And that’s another like state by state one. Mm-Hmm. and it depends on your income type two. So like always investigate in your own state whether this is a benefit. But definitely if there is, if you’re in a state where someone like a halftime employee kind of graduate student would qualify for those kinds of benefits, having a representative on campus, having someone whose job it is to help you walk through that process, that’s an amazing resource and definitely should be offered on the university side if they’re, if they’re paying you so little that you qualify for those benefits sure, let’s help you get those benefits. Right,

Ana (40:00): Exactly. And also like mental health services, you know, gotta throw that in there as someone who provides services of like, you’re often, I think universities tend to again, focus on undergrads and you see a lot of promotion about it, you know, during orientation and things like that. But grad students got their own things too. Grad school is really hard. It can be very isolating in many ways. And so mental health services are free, right? Your tuition and all that pays for it. So I always tell students like, take advantage, like, you know, if you feel like you need to talk to someone or you need to work through something or you just need to like vent to someone who you know, is gonna keep everything confidential, like go see what you know, the mental health services that your school offers.

Emily (40:47): Yeah. Thank you for adding that. Well Ana, this, this interview is just like a treasure trove of information. I’m so glad that you agreed to come on. If someone in the audience is like, oh wow, you would be great to, for me to work with one-on-one, tell me how can they find you?

Ana (41:01): Yep. I am mostly on Instagram @BrewingDinero I am often on there checking out my messages. But yeah, if you’re ever interested in learning more, whether it’s specific to you or someone else’s undocumented position who are DACA recipients interested in grad school or just trying to learn more about what you have access to in the financial world, please feel free to reach out.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (41:28): That’s awesome. Let’s end with the question I ask all my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Ana (41:42): I am always about the mantra now of like, don’t wait until after grad school to start building wealth. I think often we’re in the books trying to get through, trying to write our dissertation and then finally we graduate and we’re like, now what? Now I gotta get a job and do all the adult things. And so I, I always try to tell people like, you know, it’s hard when you have so many competing things, but starting to build wealth early on I think is a great thing to start thinking of. Whether that’s investing very little, but it’s a start to something

Emily (42:19): Absolutely underline, co-sign. Totally. It’s what we’re all about here. I love it. Ana, thank you again so much for volunteering to come on the podcast. I’m so glad that I ran into you at FinCon.

Ana (42:29): Thank you so much.

Outtro

Emily (42:35): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.