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Navigating Grad Student Finances While Undocumented

February 5, 2024 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Ana Romero Morales, a counseling psychology PhD and a financial coach through Brewing Dinero. Ana specializes in undocumented people and mix-documentation families, having gone through undergrad and graduate school as an undocumented student herself. Emily and Ana deep-dive into how documentation status affects graduate school funding and the considerations prospective graduate students should have during application and admissions seasons. They also list underutilized resources available on campus to help all graduate students balance their budgets. Ana also cautions financial coaches and content creators about knowing the boundaries of their expertise and when clients and audiences should be referred for professional mental health counseling.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • PF for PhDs Tax Workshops (Sponsored) 
  • PF for PhDs Tax Workshops (Individual Purchase)
  • Dr. Ana Romero Morales’ Instagram
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
Navigating Grad Student Finances While Undocumented

Teaser

Ana (00:00): And so I think that by the time I got to grad school, it was a different experience. Like I knew exactly how to talk about my situation, how to ask for money. By then, I knew that universities have money somewhere, somewhere there’s a pocket of money that they can dip into to help you.

Introduction

Emily (00:20): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (00:49): This is Season 17, Episode 3, and today my guest is Dr. Ana Romero Morales, a counseling psychology PhD and a financial coach through Brewing Dinero. Ana specializes in undocumented people and mix-documentation families, having gone through undergrad and graduate school as an undocumented student herself. Ana and I deep-dive into how documentation status affects graduate school funding and the considerations prospective graduate students should have during application and admissions seasons. We also list underutilized resources available on campus to help all graduate students balance their budgets. Ana cautions financial coaches and content creators about knowing the boundaries of their expertise and when clients and audiences should be referred for professional mental health counseling.

Emily (01:41): The tax year 2023 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. I do license these workshops to universities, but in the case that yours declines your request for sponsorship, you can purchase the appropriate version as an individual. Go to PFforPhDs.com/taxreturnworkshop/ to read more details and purchase the workshop. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e3/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Ana Romero Morales.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:48): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Ana Romero Morales. She has a PhD in counseling psychology and also works serving in the financial area as well as a side hustle. And her brand is called Brewing Dinero. I actually met Ana at FinCon this past October in 2023, and we ran into each other just about at the very tail end of the conference, the last event the last night, and I just knew we had to talk further the podcast. So that is what we’re bringing to you today. And Ana, thank you so much for joining me. Will you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience?

Ana (03:21): Thank you so much. Yes, I’m very happy that as I was running to the bathrooms to, you know, catch myself before I peed myself, that we got a chance to, to meet one another. As you said I have a PhD in counseling psychology and my biggest area of focus is working with undocumented and mixed status families. And similarly in my side hustle, I actually started Brewing Dinero with the goal of increasing bilingual financial education specific to the first generation undocumented and mixed status communities. So definitely that’s my, my population of passion.

Ethical Boundaries: Personal Finance and Mental Health

Emily (04:05): Excellent. I know that’s gonna resonate with like so many of the listeners. Some of them may be undocumented, but a lot of them are gonna be first generation for sure. So I’m really glad to have you on for this interview. And so I was really curious because of your background in psychology and understanding mental health, I was wondering how you react or how you respond when you see financial people like me delving into like talking about money mindset or like this other kind of like mental or emotional areas of money. Like how do you, how do you think that we’re doing with that? Or how do you react or how would you how would you present it if you were doing it?

Ana (04:43): Yeah, so I think it’s true what, what they say. And when I was studying in college and trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, that like psychology is in everything. And I think one of the great things about social media is that now we are able to reach a wider audience and talk about subjects that maybe back in the day you would only ever hear in the classroom or if you were someone who went to therapy, you would get exposed to to the language um and understanding of, of mental health. And even nowadays, there’s so many books with very catchy phrases that I remember my sister told me about and she and I was like, yes, this is all psychology, that it’s absolutely all psychology. And same thing in the financial world. I think it’s wonderful to see all of this financial content talking about money, mindset being positive and, and thinking positive about money and working through financial trauma and also at the same time as someone who went through many, many years of schooling and ethics and all of that sometimes I wonder also the other side of it, if anyone can call themselves a counselor or anyone can call themselves a trauma specialist. And I think about it from like an ethical standpoint of like, well, what if the people you’re working with truly have trauma or truly need something that you can’t provide? Which is understandable, right? Like if you have no educational background, I wouldn’t expect you to. But sometimes when people are uninformed about the difference between a psychologist, a therapist, a counselor and someone online, it gets very blurry and very messy. And so I think in some ways I’ve seen it done well where people are very much clear at the beginning like, I am a financial counselor, this is what I do. I talk about money and how it affects your life and how we can budget and pay off debt and all of that. And if there is any mental health concerns, here are resources or here’s where I can send you to to make sure that one, we’re we’re being thoughtful, that we’re being transparent, but also that we’re making sure that we’re not taking advantage of people who have maybe no knowledge of that. And so I think that’s my only thing. It’s wonderful in many ways. And also we have to be very mindful of the mental health implications that can have for, for the populations that we’re working with. Mm-Hmm.

Emily (07:22): And I’m thinking about this now, from the perspective of a consumer of this kind of information, you have to be mindful that when you see someone on social media or listen to a podcast like this, like the person is talking like one to many. And there are some issues that are gonna be better tackled by a professional, as you said, in a one-on-one setting. And so as a consumer, you just have to be aware like, is this something that can be solved by this person who has no awareness of who I am at all? Or do I really need to seek out a different resource here? Because there’s a lot more going on than just money stuff.

Ana (07:54): Yeah. And I think that’s hard, right? ’cause It’s like the responsibility isn’t on one versus the other, right? You, you wanna be a mindful, you know, informed consumer and you also wanna be the person who’s providing a service where you are also mindful in understanding of what you’re offering and being able to express that. ’cause I mean, it’s like even in therapy when I work with people, sometimes people hate the conversation of mindfulness and, and maybe for them it’s more therapeutic to go to church or to talk to their pastor or to go to the gym, right? And so there’s so many different avenues of how people find care. Same thing in the financial world, like maybe you don’t wanna talk to a financial advisor, maybe you do wanna work with a coach and they provide the thing that you need, which is wonderful. And then as the coach being aware of like, when is what I’m offering not enough for this person? Or do they, could it be harmful to them if they need something that greater than what I can offer?

Financial Trauma

Emily (08:59): What are some of those areas like you mentioned earlier, like financial trauma, like what are some areas where it might seem like it’s presenting as like a money issue, but it’s really something else that needs to be worked on in one of those professional one-to-one scenarios. Can you give us an example or two there?

Ana (09:18): Sure. for financial trauma, like I could, you know, I see a lot of people who work on maybe their debt, right? Or like, they are so triggered at, you know, the mail coming in with all these, you know, credit card companies or debt collection that are coming after you and you just can’t handle it, right? You’re avoiding it, it’s triggering, you’re losing sleep over it. And maybe you have a coach who’s walking you through that, okay, let’s work through it. Let’s go one at a time with each of the things that are being mailed to you. Let’s look at writing a letter to the debt collector, right? And so they’re walking you through those things and now you’re noticing like, great, my sleep is, is better, my stress levels are down. I’m not as anxious about it. I’ve learned some techniques on how to manage that anxiety um wonderful. That is very different where you’re going through that stuff and you’re like, well, no, I’m still having a lot of triggers, or I’m, I’m now deeply depressed. And like, it’s not just that I can’t open the envelopes, it’s that I’m also not eating and I’m also not going to work and I’m also not, you know, different aspects of your life are being impacted by whatever trauma you’re experiencing. And that is something where like, as the money person, sure I’m helping with the money part, but all the other things seem to require a much more intensive intervention by like a therapist or, or someone else. So, you know, like it’s knowing where that, where that boundary starts to shift.

The Financial and Educational Experiences of an Undocumented Student

Emily (10:58): Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for that like example. Okay, I want to go now to your special area of interest, undocumented, mixed, documented families and, you know, kind of your own personal journey in this area as well. So back when you were undocumented how, how did finances like strike you? I, I bet it was intimidating in a lot of different ways. And what were some resources that like you availed yourself of at the time and then may maybe also someones that you didn’t know that you could have accessed then, but you now tell people in your community, oh, don’t forget, you still have access to this even though you’re undocumented.

Ana (11:36): Yeah. So I found out I was undocumented when I was 17. I am first in my family to go to college, so I was listening to my friends and teachers saying like, make sure you apply to FAFSA. FAFSA is free money, financial aid. And I’m like, great, I’m gonna do that. And then the time came and I found out like, well actually I can’t apply because I don’t have a social security number. And back then in 2007, very different from now there were no resources. People didn’t talk about being undocumented. It was very much just like finances, like a very taboo subject. You don’t talk about it. And so I didn’t have the language at that point to express what I was experiencing and how to ask for help. And so I ended up going to the school that accepted me, didn’t ask me for any documentation like other schools did out of fear. And I felt like I was, you know, trying to keep my head above water for four years, just trying to figure out the financial aid system and coming to terms with like that they too did not know anything. Like I remember I got a research grant that I applied for with the help of a professor and I couldn’t get any of the money because they didn’t know how to give it to me without having documentation. I mean, I technically still used it ’cause they used it to pay for other things. So it was one of those things where like, I don’t know what I’m doing. The institution doesn’t know how to help me. And so I think I, I think just like other people who have like their financial experiences, like I just learned that like money exists, but it’s not there for me. And so I need to find other ways of making money, other ways of financing my education. And so I learned from other people who are undocumented. I’m like, how did you do this? And they’re like, oh, like, you get a scholarship or you talk to the professors in this way using this jargon to sort of get the point across without necessarily exposing yourself. And so I think that by the time I got to grad school, it was a different experience. Like I knew exactly how to talk about my situation, how to ask for money. By then I knew that universities have money somewhere, somewhere there’s a pocket of money that they can dip into to help you if they want to. So I think, you know, it, it’s a very difficult system just like any other one. But when you’re undocumented, there’s a lot more like, you know, personal things that also come into play. So now after going through a master’s program and then going through a PhD program, like now I’m very aware of how resources work, especially in the California system. So when I work with grad students who have come to me being like, I’m undocumented. I don’t know how I’m gonna pay for grad school. I’m like, all right, let’s sit down. Let’s look at scholarships, grants, fellowships that don’t require status, but also how do we talk to your department in a way that can help you maybe access money that’s, there might be somewhere that someone’s willing, willing to give you. So I think it’s been, it’s been a learning curve and policies are constantly changing. So I think that’s also something where I have to keep myself up to date with, with things both at a federal, at a state and at a local level.

Fellowships, Scholarships, and Employment for Undocumented and DACA Students

Emily (15:07): Well this is so fascinating to me ’cause you may be aware I’m a total like tax nerd and so talking about like different types of income sources is like really, really up my alley. So I really, I would love to drill down on this a little bit more. So what I’m hearing is that some fellowships and scholarships don’t require you to have documentation. Is that right?

Ana (15:25): Yes.

Emily (15:25): At both at the undergraduate and at the graduate level.

Ana (15:28): Mm-Hmm, .

Emily (15:30): What about employment?

Ana (15:33): Mm-Hmm.

Emily (15:33): And maybe this is different with like DACA versus maybe when you were first going through this. Can you explain about like, would someone is undocumented be able to get like a research assistantship at the graduate level?

Ana (15:44): Sure. So yes, if you are a DACA recipient, which means you are eligible to get a driver’s license and a social security number specific to work that is very different, right? That’s, I always tell people like, if you have DACA, you just gotta go about it like you’re a citizen where you don’t even have to disclose that you’re, you’re someone who has DACA. You just simply provide your social security number. You know, and so you’re fine. The, the one thing that gets tricky with DACA is that you are reapplying to that every two years. So like you as the person have to be on top of it of like, I gotta make sure I apply for the renewal of my DACA in time. So there’s no overlap between your DACA expires and now you, you know, have to tell your job you can’t work or grant or however that works in your department. So that’s one thing to consider. If you’re undocumented, you don’t have a social security number, but the IRS doesn’t care what your status is. They just want their taxes paid. So the IRS created the individual tax identification number, it’s ITIN for short. And that is what people can use to basically file their taxes every year because the IRS knows that people are working somehow whether that’s under the table or however you wanna call it, the IRS still wants their cut. And so I talk to students about using their ITIN to sort of see if the university or your professor advisor is willing to hire you as almost like a contractor, right? Maybe the grant allows for that to happen, right? I think it gets very nitty gritty ’cause every program is willing to do these things or not. Um so I think it, it’s very much an individual basis of whether, you know, if your professor’s like I have this pot of money, I have to, of course, you know, people above me need to know who’s it going to, how is it being filed? And so if you have a tax, your your ITIN, great, I contracted you to do this job for me and all I need is your ITIN number to be able to do that. So that’s always an option that I tell students to talk to their advisors to, to see if that’s one way. I know other people have been like, we have this extra money that we can use for whatever, I’m gonna give it to you as a stipend or a scholarship or a grant, right? It’s not something that you don’t have to pay back in order to have.

Emily (18:24): So it sounds like there’s a question mark there around will this person be able to be straight up W2 employed? That’s gonna depend on maybe the state, the university, different policies if they’re fully, fully undocumented. But maybe there’s this contractor like work around. I, I’m more, I’m more interested I guess I, I know the taxes have to be paid . I’m more interested on the, like how does the university handle this like side of things.

Ana (18:49): Yeah.

Emily (18:49): But I totally agree with you. I’ve seen that flexibility too of like, oh okay. Like for instance, when people ask for, when they negotiate for an increase in stipend, a lot of times their base stipend might be coming from a research assistantship and the university doesn’t have flexibility in the department or whatever, doesn’t have flexibility in how much they’re gonna pay there. But they might say, oh, we have this other pot of money that we have freedom to use in however we want. We’ll give you a little top up fellowship, you know, on top of that employee situation. And so I can totally see how funds could be, oh this student has a special situation, we have a little bit of flexibility on our side, we’re gonna work with them and get them the money that they need to be here. Even if it’s not the regular course of action we would do for other people.

Ana (19:29): Yeah. And I think, yeah, and it’s hard because I think now with policies changing from 2016, right? DACA is something that students who are entering the education system or who might wanna go to grad school, DACA may not be an option. And so I think it’s, it’s forced people to be creative and try to find different ways to help students. So yeah, it’s unfortunate ’cause if you’re undocumented you can’t be a W2 employee, right? ’cause the university can’t hire you in that category. But there’s so many other places or other ways that you can do it. I mean I know at the undergraduate level they have in California College Corps, which is like a program you apply to, you’re a volunteer for like nonprofits or schools or whatever, but you get paid for that service. And so you know where there’s a will, there’s a way, right? If people really want to help, they figure out other ways of doing it. And I know every state is different on how they are about those things. California has been doing it for quite a while. So I think they have more flexibility with that versus other states or other programs.

Commercial

Emily (20:39): Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Deciding Which Universities to Apply for as an Undocumented or DACA Student

Emily (21:31): Yeah, just one more follow-up question on that point. I don’t know if you, you probably sometimes work with like prospective graduate students, people who are choosing what schools to apply to deciding where they wanna attend. Do you, are you able to advise them at all about like, oh this state’s, like you said, California more experience in this area, they’re gonna be more familiar with your situation. Maybe definitely apply to a school or two there to give you some options. But do you give them guidance on like state level, you know, kind of decision making?

Ana (21:56): Yeah, I think one of the things I have found is that, you know, when I was in, when I was applying for grad school, a lot of people would be like, you need to go to the state, you know, in the middle of nowhere who have so much more extra funding who can give you the full ride. And I think that’s great, right? If that’s an option that you have. Wonderful. And also as someone who works with undocumented people or DACA recipients and who has, you know, gone through that phase, I’m like sometimes living in those states right there, there’s a sense of safety, there’s a sense of like there’s no community there. If the school’s not informed about DACA and things like that. Like is it worth it to you to have to be the person to educate and figure that out or stay in California or any other states, you know, where they do have a system already in place because grad school is already so hard and so draining that sometimes, you know, the money is important but also other aspects. And so I help people in that sense. Like I tr- I definitely when I applied to Boston, I had to be, I had to talk to financial aid, be like, you know, in-state tuition out-of-state tuition, do you guys have the DREAM Act? Which is the financial aid program for undocumented students. You know, I going through, especially if their website is not up to date with that information, right? You have to be the one to be in the position to educate other people. So it’s really going through all those multiple aspects of deciding on grad school, not just the, you know, the advisor that you want and and the degree that you want and area study, but all the other dimensions of your wellbeing as well.

Emily (23:43): Absolutely. So you would say this is something that has to come up once they’ve given me the go ahead, they’ve admitted you, then you bring up, hey, are you gonna be able to accommodate me in this way, in that way this is what my status is. Those conversations have to be had before decision day it sounds like.

Ana (23:58): Yeah, so definitely when I, you know, and everyone’s different, right? ’cause In California I feel like it’s, it’s a less taboo to talk about immigration status. But I know some people are not comfortable and so I’m like okay, you don’t have to put it in your letter, you don’t have to write it in your personal statement that you’re undocumented. But definitely when it comes time to talk about the financial aspect of your, of five t- plus years of being here at this university, like you want to know where they’re at with helping you. Maybe they don’t know much but they’re so willing to figure it out with you and help you. Great. Versus other universities who are like, yeah, no, we’re not gonna do anything with that. You can come here but we’re not able to give you any, you know, financial assistance. Then that’s a whole different conversation.

Student Loans for Undocumented and DACA Students

Emily (24:47): That makes sense. And one thing you haven’t mentioned so far is student loans. So I’m wondering, are student loans at the federal, let’s take federal and private separately. Is that not an option for people who are undocumented? Is it an option?

Ana (25:00): Yeah.

Emily (25:00): For people who are DACA recipients?

Ana (25:02): So from what I know, no, like, you know, federal student loans are not accessible. I think it’s only been a couple of years where like there are a lot of companies out there who provide private loans, which of course come with its own stuff, right? Higher interest rates, all of that stuff. I do know that at some universities, again California ’cause that’s where I’m mostly I went to schools. Some universities create their own loan system to give to undocumented or DACA recipient students. Not everywhere and not, I think at my school they had it at the undergraduate level, but they didn’t have it for grad students at that point. So no, like the, the loan situation tends to be more private based. You can definitely apply for the DREAM Act and I think it’s dependent on state’s, not nationwide. So it’s like fafsa but for undocumented students where you can apply and again that’s very state specific. ’cause If you went to school in California, you know you went through high school there, right? They have way more options for you as an in-state student versus someone else coming from a different state and coming to study in California.

Emily (26:27): I see. Yeah. I’m just, I’m trying to think about the safety uh net or the safety release valve that is student loans. Like for, especially for people who you know, maybe they’re first generation, they don’t have family that can help them out financially. If they get into a tough situation, where can they turn? Right? Okay, the stipend isn’t sufficient. What’s the next ? What’s the backup plan there? If it’s not your family, is it private student loans? You know, it’s just something you have to think through when you are looking at a stipend that is borderline enough to support you. You know, like where’s that, where’s that emergency fund gonna come from? Where’s, where’s that backup?

Ana (27:01): Yeah. And I think, you know, I think one of the great things is that even though you can’t access like federal student loans at the state level, there is a lot of money that is there that is sometimes untapped. Because again, if you’re undocumented and you don’t know and the people around you aren’t educating you on those things, how are you gonna know? But there is a lot of, at least at the state funded level, a lot of financial aid that can, that you can have access to. And you never know, right? Some universities have private scholarships, donors money that doesn’t have, you know, as many like rules about how they can use it. And I think that can also help your advisor, right? If your, if your advisor might have access to different pockets of money or know of organizations who can help, right? I think it’s just a matter of asking and and the other people willing to kind of do some of that work with you.

Resources for Undocumented and DACA Graduate Students

Emily (28:02): Well that was fascinating, thank you so much for that deep dive there. Were there any other like resources that you wanted to point out to pe- let’s say graduate students who are undocumented?

Ana (28:14): Yeah so I think especially when you’re in grad school, I know there’s often this like mantra of like your PhD should be fully covered and everything, which I totally agree. But I also tell people maybe your first year is covered and then the second year about figuring out where else you can get the money from and it’s just like undergrad scholarships. Like there’s money everywhere. I think it’s just about sitting and dedicating yourself to even applying to the $500 scholarship or the, you know, however much amount. But yeah, a lot of graduate student programs have their own like databases where they have scholarships, grants, fellowships. I highly always tell people like look through your databases. You never know what’s in there. And especially if you’re undocumented, usually they have filters where you can kind of put citizenship as not a requirement. Um so I can funnel it down at the same time I’ve had the experience where I look at scholarships or fellowships or grants and they don’t really say, or they say you’re a US resident, which could mean you are a US citizen or it can mean you’ve lived in the United States right? And have a US address. And so that’s enough to, that’s enough to apply. The same thing with bank accounts. Sometimes like they say like you have to be a US resident to open a high yield savings account. I always have to call and be like, what do you mean by that? Because that doesn’t tell me anything.

Emily (29:46): I think that’s great advice to always that that term resident is so difficult and it means different things in different context. So absolutely just asking that question ’cause you never wanna rule yourself out, right? At least ask and let them tell you. No,

Ana (29:56): Exactly. I will say, ’cause I was just remembering I think if you are undocumented or a DACA student, especially for student loan access, you can access a wider net. But I think with that you have to have someone who’s willing to co like be the co-signer. And the co-signer has to be a US citizen or permanent residence. So I always tell people that’s an option. But again, it’s a very delicate one. Like you have to have someone that you trust who’s willing to go to bat for you, who has a good credit score and has the income guidelines, right. And all the other stuff. But I even tell people like especially at the university level, go to financial aid, you never know what financial aid has to offer you as an undocumented or DACA recipient. They might know of someone, of someone of someone who found some way to get a student fully funded at a graduate level. I’ve heard of it. And so everyone’s situation is slightly different when it comes to status, but there might be something in there that can help.

Emily (31:05): Yeah, definitely. I think that’s the same kind of guidelines that are for international students. So like it’s not impossible to get a student loan, it’s just more difficult if you, your family’s not in the US you know, et cetera.

Ana (31:17): Yeah. So I mean if if they have a whole system for international students right there ha- there is definitely some for students who’ve been living here forever.

Emily (31:28): Yes. Okay. Let’s talk more now about university level resources that you’ve either used yourself or that you’ve just observed other grad students using that can help them. Let’s see. There’s the phrase like sometimes there’s more month than money, right? And so how can they get to the end of that month using some resources that the university provides?

Ana (31:49): Yes. I think one of the great things that I’m always reminded every time I’ve left the university, whether was a undergrad and then my master’s program and then now my PhD is yes. How much resources there are there that you can access that people don’t think about. So when I was in grad school, I swear there was food every day of the week somewhere on campus. It wasn’t systematically. I think nowadays I have apps where like students can literally look up where these places are. When I lived in the graduate student dorms, like I had my schedule on like Monday they have bagels in the dorms. Wednesdays they have coffee and bagels at the graduate student lounge. And in between was I would often go to the graduate student resource center to do homework there. I worked there for a while so I knew they had coffee, I knew they had snacks. We had a writer’s room where the whole point was for you to go and be in absolute silence working on your dissertation or your thesis. And they always had snacks and coffee available or tea. And so I think for me, sure it wasn’t a full meal, but it saved some money to go and be able to get these free snacks. ’cause I lived in a town that was very expensive in California. Food banks, I think grad, you know, I think grad students often feel guilty or feel like they can’t use the food bank because food bank, you know, they’re like, well I have my tuition paid for and maybe I’m getting you know, some extra stipend as a ta. But I’m like, that doesn’t, that isn’t enough. Like you still are probably not making enough. And so I always encourage students, I’m like, there’s no shame in going to the food bank at all. If anything, that’s where I got actual vegetables and produce and I would go to the food bank. So there, that’s one avenue. I used a lot of like the gym resources, like sure we all should get our heart rates up and work out, but like using the showers, using their amenities. Like you’re, I always tell people I’m like, you’re technically paying for this, right? Like you’re paying for tu- tuition fees and res life fees. I’m like, you’ve, you are paying into all these things that you have at university. Like use ’em to your benefit. So those were ones that I really, that I think most people don’t think about when they think about being a student of like all these different resources. I remember they would have these like events where they would pay you. Like if you came and wrote a part of your dissertation, they would pay you for that. At the end I was like, that’s amazing. You have to write your dissertation so why not get paid for it at the end. So yeah, just really look at what your graduate, you know, student admissions or the graduate student group resource would just have all these benefits that sometimes people didn’t use, right? Parents, they were childcare grants. I used to work for the non-traditional student resource center and we would literally put on events where we would provide free childcare and make it so it, the point was for parents to other parents to get together and get to know one another. But sometimes parents would be like, instead of going to Chili’s to hang out with other parents, I’m gonna go study or I’m gonna go run errands while I know my kid is being watched, you know, by staff at the university. So you know, there, there’s all these little things, right? If you need, if you have to take a test and you need someone to watch your kid, there are grants for that. So I think wherever you are in your life when you’re in grad school, there’s definitely resources that can be geared towards your needs.

Emily (35:37): And I would say there’s another kind of secondary benefit, well you kind of just mentioned it with like the parent example of when you’re going out to these seminars or hanging out in this lounge or whatever is like you’re meeting other graduate students. You’re getting each know them, you’re networking. Like if you’re just in your lab or your office like all day every day and you never go out of it like how many people are you gonna meet? That’s not really maximizing the professional development and also personal development aspects of your graduate student experience. So I would say just like get into all the listservs, like all the groups that are relevant to you that are of interest to you. If they have food at their events, it’s a bonus. But just like get out there and do things and and meet people. This is kind of, I’m speaking to myself a little bit ’cause this is one of my re- regrets from graduate school is just like keeping my head down a little bit too much when I should have been cultivating relationships, which is really one of your main takeaways out of graduate school is the people that you’ve been around during that time.

Ana (36:29): Yeah. And, and it’s very easy to be like, I’m a psychology student. I only know people in my department, which is like probably five or six people right in your year or years above you. And then yeah, you forget like, oh yeah, there’s an engineering school and there’s a law school and there’s all these other departments of students who are all going through this experience of grad school together. Which is why I loved working for graduate admissions and, and creating events for grad students. ’cause That was the one way I was like, wow, I get to meet and see other people from different places who talk about different things other than mental health. And so and those are have been great relationships where I can, you know, I follow them on social media and kind of see that the work they still, you know, are doing either still in their program or outside of their program.

Emily (37:21): One more benefit I wanted to mention is checking out your health insurance slash dental vision, whatever kind of insurances you get and making sure that you are maximizing all of those. Like maybe they have like some preventative, you know, health kind of bonuses or whatever. I remember I got paid for, like if I reported that I ate like a certain amount of vegetables, like every week I got paid like a dollar or two or something per week at the end of the year. It actually like literally was one of the ways that I got like vegetables into like a habit in my, in my diet. But I Do you have any examples like that of like insurance related benefits?

Ana (37:58): Oh my god. I had the best insurance while I was in grad school when I was a teaching assistant and working for the university. I had my health insurance covered and because of the town I lived in they had everything on campus. Like I’d go to the dentist on campus, the eye doctor on campus. I had all these like body aches and things that I’m pretty sure were stress related, but I went to pt, physical therapy they had massage, you know, like services. Yeah, I had the best healthcare for sure in grad school and it was pretty expensive, so it was nice not to pay for it. So yeah, I think that was a great benefit actually. They also would have someone on campus, I wanna say it’s CalFresh who literally would help students apply for food stamps and things like that. Which again, I’m like, no one thinks about that as a grad student. Sometimes like you hear about that from people who are like have families or you know, are working professionals and I’m like, well we are working too. Maybe we’re just not getting paid as much as other people. So those are all services that I think universities especially just do better about teaching their grad students of like, yeah, you guys probably aren’t making enough and you qualify for food stamps. Let’s help you apply for that so that you’re not surviving off, you know, free pizza or bagels every week and you actually get some like healthy fruits and vegetables.

Emily (39:31): Definitely. And that’s another like state by state one. Mm-Hmm. and it depends on your income type two. So like always investigate in your own state whether this is a benefit. But definitely if there is, if you’re in a state where someone like a halftime employee kind of graduate student would qualify for those kinds of benefits, having a representative on campus, having someone whose job it is to help you walk through that process, that’s an amazing resource and definitely should be offered on the university side if they’re, if they’re paying you so little that you qualify for those benefits sure, let’s help you get those benefits. Right,

Ana (40:00): Exactly. And also like mental health services, you know, gotta throw that in there as someone who provides services of like, you’re often, I think universities tend to again, focus on undergrads and you see a lot of promotion about it, you know, during orientation and things like that. But grad students got their own things too. Grad school is really hard. It can be very isolating in many ways. And so mental health services are free, right? Your tuition and all that pays for it. So I always tell students like, take advantage, like, you know, if you feel like you need to talk to someone or you need to work through something or you just need to like vent to someone who you know, is gonna keep everything confidential, like go see what you know, the mental health services that your school offers.

Emily (40:47): Yeah. Thank you for adding that. Well Ana, this, this interview is just like a treasure trove of information. I’m so glad that you agreed to come on. If someone in the audience is like, oh wow, you would be great to, for me to work with one-on-one, tell me how can they find you?

Ana (41:01): Yep. I am mostly on Instagram @BrewingDinero I am often on there checking out my messages. But yeah, if you’re ever interested in learning more, whether it’s specific to you or someone else’s undocumented position who are DACA recipients interested in grad school or just trying to learn more about what you have access to in the financial world, please feel free to reach out.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (41:28): That’s awesome. Let’s end with the question I ask all my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Ana (41:42): I am always about the mantra now of like, don’t wait until after grad school to start building wealth. I think often we’re in the books trying to get through, trying to write our dissertation and then finally we graduate and we’re like, now what? Now I gotta get a job and do all the adult things. And so I, I always try to tell people like, you know, it’s hard when you have so many competing things, but starting to build wealth early on I think is a great thing to start thinking of. Whether that’s investing very little, but it’s a start to something

Emily (42:19): Absolutely underline, co-sign. Totally. It’s what we’re all about here. I love it. Ana, thank you again so much for volunteering to come on the podcast. I’m so glad that I ran into you at FinCon.

Ana (42:29): Thank you so much.

Outtro

Emily (42:35): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

A Political Economist Explores How to Respond to the Financial Pressures on Graduate Students

January 22, 2024 by Jill Hoffman 1 Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Michael Dedmon, a PhD candidate in Political Science at Syracuse University and the Director of Research at the National Endowment for Financial Education. Michael’s research focus is in political economy, particularly in how governments respond to economic crises like the Great Recession and the COVID-19 pandemic. Emily asks Michael to share his view of what is happening in academia today as both a graduate student and a person with relevant academic expertise. They discuss how the strong labor market, high inflation, the lack of affordable housing, and constrained state and federal budgets for education and research are putting so much financial pressure on individual graduate students. Michael also explores the avenues for advocacy that are available to graduate students, such as unionization.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • PF for PhDs Tax Workshops (Sponsored) 
  • PF for PhDs Tax Workshops (Individual Purchase)
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
  • Michael Dedmon Twitter

Teaser

00:00 Michael: Unionization is just one of the ways, right? That graduate students can really sort of band together, right? Really use that solidarity with one another and with graduate students across universities. To really sort of fight for a situation that really helps them reduce their vulnerability, but then also build a good financial sort of basis as they go into their career in academia, which is kind of a separate conversation. But we know that the challenge is right to. To living a financially secure life as an academic, are extremely challenging. So if you sort of start right from a negative as a graduate student, it sets you up for a lot of problems down the road.

Introduction

00:43 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

01:12 Emily: This is Season 17, Episode 2, and today my guest is Michael Dedmon, a PhD candidate in Political Science at Syracuse University and the Director of Research at the National Endowment for Financial Education. Michael’s research focus is in political economy, particularly in how governments respond to economic crises like the Great Recession and the COVID-19 pandemic. Michael shares his view of what is happening in academia today as both a graduate student and a person with relevant academic expertise. We discuss how the strong labor market, high inflation, the lack of affordable housing, and constrained state and federal budgets for education and research are putting so much financial pressure on individual graduate students. Michael also explores the avenues for advocacy that are available to graduate students, such as unionization.

02:02 Emily: The tax year 2023 version of my tax return preparation workshop, How to Complete Your PhD Trainee Tax Return (and Understand It, Too!), is now available! This pre-recorded educational workshop explains how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. Whether you are a graduate student, postdoc, or postbac, domestic or international, there is a version of this workshop designed just for you. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs can access them for free. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they sponsor this workshop for you and your peers? You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Thank you so, so much for doing so! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e2/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Michael Dedmon.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:27 Emily: I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Michael Dedmon, he is both a PhD candidate, Syracuse university, and currently an employee with the National Endowment for Financial Education. And he and I met at a conference this past summer, the higher education financial wellness summit, where I was listening to him give a presentation. I said to myself that man has a PhD. And so I approached him afterwards and found out, I was almost right, he’s almost to the PhD,  Um, and yeah, so Michael, I know we’re going to have a fascinating conversation today. I’m really looking forward to it. Would you please introduce yourself a little bit further for the audience? 

04:01 Michael: Absolutely. Well, first, thanks so much for having me. This is really a great opportunity that was totally unanticipated from that particular, uh, presentation. And I’m really thrilled to be here. Uh, well, I guess by way of introducing myself, uh, I’m from Colorado originally. That’s where I live. Currently. Um, I’m a 1st generation college student. Uh, and so by that extension, you know, also very much. So 1st generation PhD student, uh, I started off, uh, studying international relations at the American University of Paris. Uh, and then I studied in an MA in European politics at the European Institute at the London School of economics. Really, I had even gone into that MA level, really kind of wanting to focus on foreign affairs and international relations, but it was really kind of at that sort of stage where I really started to be pulled more in the direction of studying political economy after taking a few years off after the sort of starting with some early career research experience. I started pursuing a PhD in political science at Syracuse University. Where I’m currently a candidate, um, as a graduate student, you know, I got a couple of different, you know, sort of areas of research experience worked at a small research initiative focused mostly on international NGOs. And the Moynihan Institute of global affairs, uh, and then when I was more advanced in the PhD process, sort of started working in this field of financial security and financial education, uh, it started off at a smaller nonprofit in Brooklyn. Where I focused on identifying barriers to financial security for low and moderate income families, mostly in the New York City area and recently joined the National Endowment for financial education earlier this summer as the research director. And and I’m also an adjunct instructor in the political science department at the University of Colorado Colorado Springs. So, sort of maintain my academic connection in that regard. 

Research Interests: Financial Crises, Financial Security, and Financial Education

05:52 Emily: So listeners, what we’re going to do with this interview is take all this fascinating experience and expertise that Michael has and ask him to apply it to the PhD population instead of the populations that he’s been typically studying and working with. Um, and since he has that personal experience being part of that population, I think it’s going to end up being a great conversation. Okay. So you went, uh, over that, you know, your CV a little bit. Is there anything that you’d like to dive in further and tell us more about that’s going to be relevant to our conversation today?

06:21 Michael: Well, I could maybe. Sort of start by talking a little bit about what really brought me sort of out of the academic, you know, sort of world and into this sort of field of financial security and financial education. Um, you know, I could maybe start by talking a little bit about what informs sort of my personal research interests, I guess, uh. You know, starting maybe with my, even my dissertation project and my dissertation work, uh, which is broadly speaking, sort of focused on the politics of economic crisis, specifically the politics of how and when governments choose to intervene to support individuals, families. Businesses really anybody in response to difficult economic times. I’m especially interested in how policy makers and academic experts. And politicians make sense of economic crises, how that sort of, you know, the frames, uh. Narratives the stories, the interventions that they think are necessary, uh, maybe have changed over time, uh, and what the political sort of determination of those stories that they find compelling are, um, my project specifically sort of asked this question in relation to the 2008 financial crisis, uh, and the recent economic consequences of the COVID 19 pandemic. Uh, you know, in 2008, we saw a certain type of discourse around what caused that particular crisis, how government should respond and what types of policies were needed to protect certain groups or certain firms or certain banks or businesses and then ultimately to get the economy back on track and, uh. Really, it was kind of my interest in how governments, how we, as people, how society makes sense of these types of crises and how the really serious consequences that individuals and families, especially people that are already vulnerable, uh, how they experience those crises and how that informs our politics. That’s really kind of what drew me, I think, into this particular field, which I would say is, you know, sort of the field of research and policy and advocacy that’s really focused on trying to understand the barriers that people. Uh, face to living their best financial lives and experiencing economic security and financial well, being, uh, and it’s been a really fulfilling experience. I think, to try to apply my academic interests, uh, both in the sort of policy and advocacy space. And then now, and, and, uh, I would say more of a broader, you know, sort of research, uh area looking at how financial education is just one out of many different ways that we can address economic insecurity and barriers to financial well being.

Financial Journey as a First Generation College Student

08:48 Emily: Of course, I love that working in the field of financial education for a number of years now. It’s so apparent to me in the last few years that there’s so much policy work that needs to be done, um, for us to even get to a point where financial education can be effective and can, it can really help people. So, um, I love that message. Um, would you like to add anything more about your personal journey through this period. 

09:09 Michael: You know, I couldn’t agree more with you as well, just really about seeing financial education really is sort of existing within like an ecosystem, right? Of issues in the ecosystem of problems. Really? Uh, that our society sort of has, uh, is presenting to individuals and families to living their best financial lives. And I’ve definitely really experienced that in myself. Um, you Not just before, you know, being a PhD student and after being a PhD student, or at least, I guess, after being really focused on the coursework, but being a graduate student as well. Um, you know, for me, and my personal sort of finance journey is really informed in a lot of ways by being a 1st generation college student. Uh, you know, could even say seeing, I would say, I guess, the, the sort of financial and economic struggles that, uh, that my parents, I think, experienced not having attained that college education, uh, trying to figure out, I think, how they were going to find their place in a labor market that was. I guess, maybe presenting different kinds of barriers to them being successful. You know, I kind of come from a family, like a lot of 1st generation college students where, you know, the idea of going to college was presented a little bit as a non negotiable. Partly because of how my parents understood their own experience and their own struggles. Um, and then. You know, my academic research interests, uh, are really sort of informed by how I experienced the financial crisis sort of period and in the U.S. and in the advanced industrialized world specifically. I mean, I was still in college. It was junior. Uh, no, I was senior in college, I guess, in 2008. so I sort of graduated in the spring of 2009 into 1 of the worst labor markets, right? That there was, uh, And not really sure exactly sort of how I was going to make my way, like, apply the things I had learned and and really just sort of start my career. It’s part of the reason why I continued on right away by pursuing an M. A. because it seemed. No, like, a lot of us, it seems like an answer to that question of what I was going to spend my time doing when we were looking at such a difficult economic situation. So, even though I was studying something else, and, you know, at the time had kind of, I think I wrote my master’s thesis on the relationship between the European Union and Russia. Which, uh, funnily enough, at the time, a lot of people said it was a very boring topic. Of course, that’s not the case now. Um, but, uh, what really pulled me to toward political economy and trying to think about these issues of, of, uh, financial security and political economy in general is seeing the extent to which the financial crisis created so many difficulties, uh, for people to sort of find financial security after, after that event. And really just being fascinated with the, the political and policy conversation about How we made sense of something like that. How did we sort of understand the fact that the economy had, uh, experienced this shock? How did we make sense of trying to get the economy back to growth? And how did we make sense of the fact that that really didn’t happen right away in most of the advanced industrialized economies?

12:11 Michael: Uh, so that was really, and experiencing that myself, I guess I would say, right? Uh, even coming out with an MA facing a tough labor market, you know, I found myself struggling to pay rent, struggling to sort of figure out, I think, how to. To to get on the career ladder, uh, you know, working a retail job, you know, going back and forth, you know, to different interviews. I have this very, very clear memory of, um. Interviewing for a job, I think is like an office manager at a at a apartment complex and I kind of remember leaving my job at the gap. A little bit early and getting in the car and driving, you know, and then showing up at this apartment complex and interviewing with what had to have been like, 35 or 40 other people, all of us standing there and, you know, uh, you know, press shirts and ties, you know, for like, uh, an entry level office manager job. And I think that that’s, that’s the experience that a lot of people had really just kind of trying to figure out what their place is going to be in a labor market. That was really, really not recovering from the crisis anywhere near fast enough. Uh. Okay. So that was really, I think, uh, a really big inspiration for me to try to understand what’s the government’s role in responding to those types of crises. And why were the types of responses that we saw to the 2008 crisis not working? Right? And that wasn’t just in the United States that we were experiencing that. And that was countries across, you know, the United States and North America and Northern Europe, um, where my research sort of has taken me. But, uh, yeah, that was really just a really, really important part of my personal. You know, development that informed, I think, my future research interests and, and now it’s sort of become, uh, really central to my career. 

Comparing the 2008 Financial Crisis to the COVID Crisis

13:52 Emily: What a vivid story. And I’m also thinking now about, you know, you made a comparison earlier, just that you’ve been thinking about the 2008 and 2009 financial crisis versus the COVID crisis that we’re having now. And I’m thinking about, um, someone listening to this podcast who is a recent college graduate and maybe graduated in 2020 or 2021. And how is what, I don’t know, can you tell us a little bit about generally over at the population level, how what they’re facing is is different or similar to what you and me and other of our peers experienced during that earlier crisis?

14:28 Michael: That’s a really fantastic question. Um, in a lot of ways, I think it really highlights how different the situation and the sort of post uh, landscape is compared to 2008. Um, And I think that should really cause us to ask a lot of really difficult questions, right? About why it is that, you know, maybe you and me, other people in our sort of, you know, cohort, uh, had such a different experience. Because 1 of the things that you really see, and I think we’re seeing additional evidence of this really every day, especially in the United States with additional sort of economic statistics is that the labor market situation that you and I faced, right? When we graduated from college, you know, in the early 2000s. Was one in which the premium, the benefit that you got from having an, uh, you know, higher education was certainly still there. But, um, the barriers that we were facing to really getting on the career ladder were really, really extensive. Um, there’s a lot of scarring in the labor market, meaning all of the layoffs really that had happened or the long term unemployment that people had experienced in the immediate sort of period after the financial crisis took a really, really long time to recover in the United States. There’s a lot of different explanations at the time for why that was. Uh, right you had a lot of people that were focusing on saying, well, maybe the unemployment insurance that the government offered in response to the crisis was too generous, right? It was keeping people from from taking additional jobs. I think we can kind of look back and see, especially given the extent of unemployment insurance, I guess, uh, generosity in the 2020 COVID crisis. That is a really, really difficult explanation to take seriously. 

16:03 Michael: But anyway, there were a lot of different reasons why economists sort of trying to understand why the labor market was taking so long to recover and why it was so difficult, even for people with college educations to really get on the career ladder and get a job that was going to pay them a living wage so that they can pay rent and pay the other expenses they needed. One of the biggest differences is that in part, because, uh, the government took a much more active role in responding to the downturn, uh, that was sort of caused by the COVID 19 pandemic that the labor market did not experience that same type of slow return to normal. After 2020, in fact, you sort of saw the opposite, right? Businesses had trouble hiring folks. They had difficulty hiring people to fill the jobs, which, uh, had a really, really beneficial impact on wages. Also, just something was completely different from what happened in the after the 2008 financial crisis. You had a labor market situation, which was incentivizing businesses. To try to pull people into those jobs, so they were offering higher and higher wages, right? This is sort of where you saw, you know, people getting offered 15, 16, 17, even in some places to work, uh, you know, places like McDonald’s coming after a number of years where fast food workers were trying to organize and demand, right? A 15 minimum wage in those same jobs. And we’re experiencing a lot of barriers to making that a reality. So on the one hand. The government’s willingness to spend a lot of money in response to the 2020 pandemic to try to make sure that vulnerable people specifically, uh, didn’t lose their homes. Didn’t lose housing. Uh, didn’t get too far behind on making payments on their debt or their mortgages or other types of, uh, you know, that’s that they had. Really put the economy in a much stronger position to recover afterward and in terms of facing, you know, labor market opportunities is 1 of the best ways to see the positive impact of that response.

17:56 Michael: And so, I mean, I don’t know. I’m interested to kind of know what you think as well. Talking to so many folks who are sort of leaving the, the, the graduate school situation and thinking about their finances. But I would say that on the whole, I think people are facing a very different type of labor market now that are not experiencing the same type of restriction of opportunities. That we experienced after the 2008 crisis, that’s not to say that they don’t also face a lot of difficulties, right? In terms of. Making the most out of their careers, earning a living wage, feeling like they have what they need to live their best financial lives. But in terms of the. Barriers they’re facing in the labor market. It’s really not quite the same. 

18:36 Emily: Well, I was thinking about so I entered graduate school I should say I entered PhD training plans to go into a PhD program in 2007, which is when I graduated from college So it was just before so I was kind of safely ensconced in my PhD program by the time things really started going downhill in 2008 and I say safely because my lab happened to be well funded which obviously is a very real concern inside academia my lab in the area it was in, we had funding, my, my funding was secure during that time. I don’t have any statistics on this at all or even anecdotes, but I’m just wondering if, you know, comparatively the stronger labor market, as you were talking about, um, didn’t incentivize people to go into academia to start those graduate programs and start the PhD programs in the last few years in the way that, again, we experienced back in 2008, 2009, 2010. Um, Um, yeah, so I’m just kind of thinking about maybe the different pressures on people and when they can choose to go into a job that would be satisfactory to them, then maybe earning a decent amount of money and they think, Oh, I was sort of interested in going to graduate school, but I can put that off for a few years and I’m going to work this job for now. Um, I don’t have those numbers on whether or not enrollment has decreased in the last, you know, couple of years compared to 2019, for example. I don’t know if you have looked into this at all or have any thoughts about this. 

The Labor Markets Impact on University Enrollment

19:51 Michael: Yeah, that’s a really interesting point. I definitely can’t really. Speak very confidently, uh, at the graduate level, but especially because I’m teaching undergraduates right now, you know, the regional campus of a state school, I can definitely say, uh, that, you know, the University of Colorado system in particular is, uh. Definitely not experiencing the same type of enrollment surge that they saw after the 2008 crisis, especially at the undergraduate level, even campuses like ours here in Colorado Springs. I wouldn’t say, like, struggling with enrollment. But definitely having to ask some, some really difficult questions about what the future of, uh, right of enrollment is going to look like serving students best, helping them get the training they need for their future careers. But I think you’re exactly right that that those students are not feeling the same types of pressure and especially with the increase in wages that we. I would say that, you know, we at least saw in the 1st, few years after 2020, uh, the wage increases are sort of, uh, I would say, uh, leveling off now, partly because of the monetary policy response of the Federal Reserve and the increase in interest rates, which it was the goal, right? The goal was to sort of slow down that economic growth and see those wages, uh, not grow quite as fast. Um, but just the fact that wages were growing at all. After 2020 in the way that they were definitely presents people with a different set of opportunities. Um, and then I know this is something that you are very interested in and your podcast offers a lot of, uh, really important context, uh, around, but especially students that are looking at the trade offs between taking out debt to pay Right for their education, and then sort of considering that trade off in the context of what they can earn in the labor market. Uh, that’s becomes a little bit more difficult. Right of a choice. Um, and like you had said, if they can make the choice to put off right, getting additional credentials for a little bit, because of what they’re able to to do in their careers outside academia, uh, I definitely think that that set of choices is very different now for folks than it was in 2008, 2009, 2010.

21:57 Emily: I’m so curious and this is not a question for you, but I’m so curious to see how this new SAVE plan for federal student loans is going to impact people’s decision making around whether to enroll in school and how much debt to take out when there’s, um, you know, we’ve, we’ve eliminated with this repayment plan, the negative amortization that was so, so painful, um, for so many people on the back end of their degrees. And without that, I feel like the risk of taking out debt is much, much, much less now. Okay. The risk of the SAVE plan, we don’t know. Politically, we don’t know how long it’s gonna stick around for, but it’s, it’s here for the moment. So I’m just curious how people’s decisions are going to change around that.

Unionization Movements in the U.S.

22:33 Emily: But the next question for you, since we’ve started talking around, um, academia and versus the labor market and so forth. Um, I’m curious what your thoughts are around the unionization movements going around the U. S., around, that is to say, around graduate students, um, unionizing, and also how like stipend levels are, are being affected by this like strong labor market. I don’t know if you have any thoughts or data or speculation around that, just how academia itself and the graduate students going into academia and staying in academia are affected by these larger economic forces. 

23:09 Michael: Yeah, there’s so many, I mean, even just the way that you said that affected by the larger economic forces is such a great way of framing that issue because there’s so many different inputs, right? I think into, uh, the way that universities and the way that even departments are trying to figure out how they can do, uh, right by their graduate students, um, but also how they can attract, right? The best type of candidates that they, that they, uh, that they want. Um, I think that 1 of the ways that I think about this. Thanks. Of course, it’s just starting by thinking that graduate students on the whole experience of a lot of really specific vulnerabilities, right? Um, any type of event or situation that doesn’t conform to a more traditional sort of academic experience can also, like, really exacerbate those, um, coming into a, you know, a graduate program, something we both know. Well, there’s a lot of expectations, right? That are sort of carried over from. Decades and generations of the way that the graduate student experience is supposed to work. Specifically, right, like, figuring out how to live a decent life right on the graduate students stipend is who identified as kind of, like, the biggest thing that a lot of students have to face. Um, that includes trying to figure out how to pay rent, especially when, you know, rent inflation is out of control and most metro areas in the, in the U. S. including in places like Syracuse that traditionally speaking, right? Have had pretty depressed housing markets because of. Um, so. A lot of different dynamics of, uh, of, uh, economic vulnerability at the community level, right? That go back, you know, since the 1970s. Um, but as students are facing that, I think that that’s sort of combined with a lot of other, you know, sort of issues and concerns around equity and justice in general. Right seeing universities as being primary sites of contesting. A lot of those questions have really motivated a lot of graduate students to really participate in and unionization efforts to really try to not just have living wages, but also try to address other issues of fairness in the, in, in either their specific discipline or just in the, in the field more generally, um, you know, I can say from my own department, uh, we had a year’s long sort of unionization drive. Um, That kind of went in fits and starts and took a really kind of long pause and then I’m, I’m advanced enough of a student now to sort of be outside of the bargaining unit, but they just recently were able to, uh, to to to get that union recognized, uh, which is a huge achievement for them. And so at least still being part of the department and seeing how those conversations and negotiations are proceeding. You know, I already can look back and see how different that would have made my life right when I started in that program to know that there was a possibility of increasing the stipend on its own. But then a lot of other ancillary issues, right? Like. Uh, at what level is the department going to cover your health insurance premium? Uh, when I started in the department, uh, you know, I can’t remember now, but the percentage was really low, but even, you know, as as I became a more advanced graduate student, I could see that that was 1 of the ways the department was really trying to sort of reduce the, the cost right on students is by saying, well, if you are on a TA-ship, if you’re on an RA-ship, you know, we’re going to start covering that premium in full. Including in some cases for for other members of your family, which, you know, that’s a huge benefit that we identify with, like, a solid career job. Um, that maybe as a graduate student is kind of an afterthought. I guess also, of course, depending how old you are when you come into a program, um. But that makes a huge difference financially for folks, right? To not have to pay. You know, 1000, 2000 dollars and a yearly health insurance premium that, of course, you’re required to have. Uh, so unionization is just one of the ways, right? That graduate students can really sort of band together, right? Really use that solidarity with one another and with graduate students across universities. To really sort of fight for a situation that really helps them reduce their vulnerability, but then also build a good financial sort of basis as they go into their career in academia, which is kind of a separate conversation. But we know that the challenge is right to. To living a financially secure life as an academic, are extremely challenging. So if you sort of start right from a negative as a graduate student, it sets you up for a lot of problems down the road.

Commercial

27:35 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Impact of State and National Politics on University Funding

28:27 Emily: I’m thinking now about. The comparatively strong labor market, surprisingly strong coming out of a crisis, um, perhaps competing with graduate school for talent, right? I’m thinking about the unionization movement, which is putting more pressure on universities to pay better wages and get better benefits and so forth. Um, but then more to your, I think, uh, research experience, I’m curious about the national and state level responses to these pressures, right? Because the funding for academia comes partly from the people participating in, like the tuition and so forth, but it also partly comes from the federal and state governments through grants and, and, uh, the state funding for public universities and so forth. And these, these pressures are, are coming against one another. And I feel in some sense, like graduate students and postdocs are the people, um, who get left behind. In these pressures, right? So can you talk about, like, sort of based on your research and how, um, you know, governments can intervene in crises, like what you see as potential, um, uh, pressure release in, in this, in this area? Uh, I hope that made sense to you. 

29:34 Michael: No, absolutely. No, and you’re so right. And, you know, again, there’s so many different levels that you can, you know, sort of analyze that on the one hand, you know, you sort of pointed to. The relationship between state level government and funding levels at state universities in particular, which affect stipends for graduate students and segments for postdocs directly the number of, you know, funding opportunities for graduate students to support their research, which helps reduce their time to degree, uh, you know, the number of services the university is able to offer, uh, to graduate students from, you know, um, Health, it’s not even just paying for health insurance premiums, but it’s just health services, you know, overall, um, going from that all the way to whether or not universities are able to provide child care support to students and to graduate students and even to faculty and other people who work at the university, you know, as you had said, like, all of that’s tied to the funding situation that the state university has. You know, and of course, that varies on a state by state basis, right? We see some states like the University of University of Wisconsin system. It’s really, really struggling with the sort of domestic politics of the of the state in general to to sort of figure out a funding model that really makes it to where they can support all of the good work that they’re doing across all their campuses. But Colorado struggles with that too, right? Trying to figure out how to really create a sustainable funding model for the state university system in the long term. So, that’s at 1 level that I really sort of see, as you had said, like, states being able to appropriately fund their state university systems. Interacts directly with graduate students and their sort of financial security and of course, like, how that impacts their, their long term career prospects. Um, but there’s also these other situations that really very also for graduate students to, um. That they’re existing, not only in a university community, but existing in a community that has all of these other dimensions, right? So the cost of housing, right? And a particular university community varies widely. And I think about this, even in a situation in Colorado, where you have the University of Colorado at Boulder, our sort of flagship research university is in one of the most you. If not the most right expensive, uh, sort of residential area on the front range and, uh, you know, I’ve never lived in Boulder, but I can’t imagine how challenging that is for the university to both attract graduate students and then for graduate students to figure out how to make the stipends that they’re receiving go as far as they can without having to choose to live 20, 30 minutes away right from from campus, which is. Not practical, right? Especially in the early years of your graduate student experience. Just even if we were to focus on, like, how much like, the cost of housing, right? Gets eaten up, uh, or eats up the sort of graduate student stipend. Um, that’s obviously something that universities can’t really do a ton about, right? That’s more of a role for, uh. For local governments or for state governments and can definitely see how the politics of that is really playing out in Colorado, an area where had a ton of influx of people since the pandemic that rent inflation is really, really high here. And we’re struggling, honestly, in a lot of ways to figure out how to how to control that.

Local Government and the Affordability and Availability of University Housing

32:38 Emily: I’m curious then, so I’ve noticed, um, there’s been struggles over, um, universities providing housing for, for undergraduates and graduate students, right? We’ve seen in, I can’t remember which UC is it, whether it’s Berkeley or another one, but um, struggles with local government in terms of permitting for additional, um, Student housing to be, uh, built. I know also at Vanderbilt, they opened up new, um, student housing a couple year or two ago, I think, and the students were very disappointed that the housing seemed closer to market rate and for a luxury apartment than like what was affordable for the students themselves. So the universities have some agency here, but they still have to play, as you said, with the local communities in terms of the permitting and everything. And, of course, the funding for those kinds of building projects. 

33:27 Michael: Yes, it’s interesting points, because you’re exactly right there, too, that, you know, the permitting issues, just the space, you know, sort of issues I think about different university communities that I’ve lived in between, you know, Syracuse. This is a completely different situation, right? Then, uh. As you had said, right, the, for, for Cal, like, in a city like Berkeley, or I lived briefly in Ithaca, you know, thinking about Cornell really struggling also with kind of figuring out where to even build right housing. If they, if they were able to for and making that available to graduate students and how the funding model works for that. So, that is a really great point. Maybe I, even in my sort of answer, letting universities off the hook a little bit too much. But in the same way, right there, like, you had said that there’s a lot of complex issues that. That they have to work with sort of the local community to figure out what is available to them. And I know that in Colorado, you know, this is relevant for us in the sense that we’re going through sort of a statewide conversation about permitting reform and there was, uh. You know, a bill that was passed by the Colorado state legislature to to really try to give local municipalities more power to change their zoning laws to build more affordable housing that ultimately was, uh. Was I believe vetoed by by by governor polis in part, because there was just so much opposition to it at the, the municipal level. So we’re going to try to sort of, I think, figure out how to proceed. But, uh, you know, we’re obviously not the only state that’s really struggling to sort of figure out the balance between Local control and state level control, uh, over, uh, zoning regulations, uh, to really try to incentivize, like, actually affordable housing or just more housing. Right? And, uh, so, yeah, lots of really complex layers there, but it has really, really, uh, serious impacts right on how graduate students figure out their, uh, their sort of budgets throughout their, uh, throughout their graduate student career.

35:17 Emily: And this is making me think about prospective graduate students, um, looking at, and I usually think about this actually, and this is not the full picture, right? I think about it as a snapshot in time. What’s the current cost of living in this particular city where I’m considering attending for my PhD, and what’s the stipend at this moment? But to be really comprehensive and fair, we have to look at the trends. Um, and whether, you know, states are struggling to, um, to really financially support the universities. And that means that the stipend raises not, might not be keeping up with inflation going forward. We need to look at housing and how that is trending and whether or not something like on campus housing is being provided or might be provided in the future. And just, I’m just thinking about a prospective graduate student, like, You know, for me, when I was applying to graduate school, like taking, you know, a day or two and visiting a campus where I might devote the next five, six, seven years of my life and, um, how much, uh, really should go into that decision on the financial side and how difficult it would be to collect all that information. for every single university you’re considering and really understand it. It’s such a, wow. It’s a really complex problem. 

Inflation and Financial Pressures During Graduate School

36:26 Michael: Yeah. You said it so well. And, uh, the time inconsistency situation is tough for graduate students because you’re exactly right. You’re coming in with sort of a quoted time to degree. You’re trying to plan your life out in that block. Um, and before you’re even talking about all the other changes that happen to you in your life, right. New relationships, you know, you have a kid. Other types of situations that happen to you and your family, you know, you live a whole lifetime really, especially at that age, right? Coming in and thinking about your 5 to 7 years before you’re finished. And then you have to make a decision about how you’re going to make the finances work. And you’re exactly right that. You know, the stipends don’t keep up and, you know, we are, we’re also living in a period where we have gotten used to, uh, cost of living inflation. Overall, not really being a huge pressure, right? Rent inflation. You know, the inflation of the cost of education cost of health care, you know, these things were always really difficult for for people that were early in their careers. But then you think about after the, the covid pandemic, and now we’re experiencing inflation on like a. A much more wide scale level, right? It’s like graduate students thinking about the cost of groceries going up, right? That’s not really something that if you went into graduate school in 2018, 2019, you really were thinking about. And, uh, I guess the only thing I’ll say for, for me is that this, I think highlights the importance, I think, of being able to really build that solidarity with other graduate students within a union. Because that’s where you really have the ability to to present that United front to your department of the university and say, look, these are the pressures, right? That we’re experiencing. This is the value that we’re offering to the department of the university through our work. And, uh, and we are going to work together, right? To come up with a solution that makes it to where we can have. A living wage, while we’re also sort of continuing to pursue our studies, um, and then linking that sort of struggle with other people in the economy. Right? I mean, these graduate students are joining, you know, the service employees in a national union. You know, some graduate programs are joining the United Auto Workers, right? I mean, they’re building solidarity. I think with other workers that are experiencing those same pressures. And it’s really inspiring. And I think it really is a really big part of the solution. I think at least from a graduate student perspective on getting to a point where can really make the finances, finances work. But your, your point about timing, I think it’s like, so it’s so true. Right. And so, so real on an individual level, especially. 

Shifting University Funding Models to Better Support Grad Students

38:45 Emily: I love your point about the, the power of the unionization movements and the unions that are already in place so much. I almost wish we could end the interview right there, but I have kind of like one more question, um, which is so with unions. You’re talking about advocacy at the very local level, and then of course we’re bridging to advocates and other, um, branches of that union. Uh, but I’m also thinking now about, you know, we just talked about funding from the state level. I’m also thinking about funding from the federal level, which in my field, like in the biomedical sciences, is what they do in academia, in graduate education, is so dependent on the National Institutes of Health and other federal agencies funding. And so I’m thinking about also, like, Okay, we want graduate students to be paid, not just a living wage, in my opinion, much more so they can do even more with their finances and actually have some financial security. More than the living wage. Also, other people in academia, you mentioned the pressures don’t end with graduate school. It extends into faculty and administrators as well. More funding is needed for the whole system. I think if we decide as a country and as a planet that we really value what’s going on in academia. Right? So I think the advocacy has to also be at the state and national level as well, um, to increase the budgets again, if we decide as a society that what we’re doing in academia is valuable. Because. If society does not decide to value it, then academia has to shrink because the pressures on these lowest levels, as I said, the financial pressures are just too much, too much to bear and you’re driving people away at this point. That’s how I see it. What do you think? 

40:14 Michael: Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. Um, I completely agree with you too, that it’s a national level question, right? And I think that this is at least from my perspective, one of the helpful insights that you get. From the political economy, sort of, you know, perspective coming within the political science discipline is that you see how these things interact with so many other things in our economy, right? Thinking about how we train people at the university level, what sort of skills we want them to have, who’s doing the training, right? Who’s gaining the skills to actually play that role of being those teachers. And that’s even before getting to the, to the other issues, you know, you know, a lot better than I do. I think coming in the biomedical field You know, who’s the ones who are investigating the types of advances that are going to help us solve the biggest issues that we’re facing, whether that has to do with, uh, you know, avoiding pandemics or responding to climate change or whatever it is. Right? And you’re exactly right that it’s a choice about whether or not we value that as a society and taking seriously what that looks like. And I think that both of us know quite well that, like, at the individual level, we’re not really just talking about having more access to funding for individual research, but that is a huge part of it. That empowers graduate students to be able to not only do their best work, but to be able to really focus on the work that motivates them. Right? Which gives them space for creativity for solving problems for asking questions. And it’s not to say that, like, you don’t gain a lot from teaching doing other research and that kind of stuff at the same time that you’re doing your own, but it is a lot of pressure. And a lot of the most successful, uh, you know, people emerging from graduate school are folks that didn’t really necessarily have to deal with those pressures in quite the same way. It’s 1 of the benefits of going right to 1 of the top programs is having access to more funding. And so you imagine what it would be like if. Everybody right going to graduate school has access to that same type of support, or at least. A lot more support and, uh, absolutely funding coming from the, you know, the National Science Foundation and other types of, uh, you know, federal sources of funding like that to really, really fund a wider range, right? Of research projects. And there’s also, you know, questions here related to what types of folks are getting, what types of funding and are we really supporting also marginalized voices in the academy that are really focusing on important questions, asking questions about. Yeah. You know, either the history, or the experience, or, uh, you know, of marginalized groups, uh, in our economy and in our society already. Right? Those are not necessarily the types of, uh, projects that get the. They’re the top choice for funding, um, because they’re more difficult questions to answer. So there’s, there’s a number of different benefits that we would experience at a societal level, um, from really embracing, uh, a university funding model That is actually oriented towards what we want to get out of universities, instead of just seeing them as sort of factories to train people with the skills to make them successful in the economy as important as that is. Right? 

43:05 Emily: I think about universities, both the product of a university that you just mentioned, people are the product, trained people, but also the research itself is a product. And graduate students do both of those things, right? They’re becoming those trained people and they’re also generating the research that is disseminated and helps on a much wider basis. But as you just said, if they can’t focus on the work that they’re there to do and then the skills they’re there to, um, to develop in themselves, like we’re really, we as academia, we’re really hamstringing ourselves by not supporting those trainees, um, financially and in other ways to the greatest extent they can so they can flourish. Um, I’ve been thinking recently about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. So like at the top, like self actualization, like. That’s where we want academics to be operating. But if they don’t have the safety and the physiological needs levels met financially and again through other support systems, how, how can they be expected to be in that actual self actualization level, which is ostensibly what they’re there to do. Um, so it doesn’t really make a lot of sense, but as we have been talking about, there are so many different inputs to this system. That have to be, um, considered in the history of it. And gosh, well, I’ve enjoyed this conversation so much, Michael. Um, is there anything else that you would like to add at this point on How universities or state level or government or federal level governments could be better supporting their graduate students. 

44:31 Michael: I think that we have really covered, I think the wide range right of inputs. I really appreciate the conversation. I really appreciate your perspective and, uh, I think that you’re doing such great work. I think I’m trying to highlight how diverse right? This is the experience of, uh, financial life can be at the graduate student level. And, uh, Yeah, it’s just not really a story. I think that you think of immediately when you think of financial insecurity, but, of course, as we know, it’s, it’s, it’s a very, very pervasive feeling that a lot of us experience the graduate student level and it really resonates with me about how important the work that happens in universities is. Right? And I don’t even think that you really need to be overly romantic about it to think about the value those institutions have to public life and graduate students are a critical part of that. Uh, so I really have enjoyed this conversation and, uh, I don’t think I have anything additional to add.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

45:24 Emily: Okay. Then we’ll just end with the final question that I ask all of my guests, which is what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD? We really haven’t gone in to that personal finance realm too much at all during this interview. So this is kind of your opportunity to enter that individual level and say what’s worked for you or what you think would work for other people at the graduate student level.

45:44 Michael: Yeah. I appreciate the time to sort of reflect, I think, on that, uh, on that question. And a lot of it is sort of connected to these key key elements that we’ve talked about so far in the conversation. I know that for me, 1 thing I didn’t think about enough about before I started was availability of funding, right? For my own research. And even looking at the availability of that funding, uh, what was it going to take to actually try to be competitive for it because of how limited it is, um, because it’s 1 of the key things, right? That we just were talking about this, but, like, relieving that pressure, um, of, uh, you needing to focus on the teaching and the work in order to make a living, right? To earn that stipend to sort of survive, um, the space then in your life gets shrunk, right? To focus on your own research, which it’s not even just about, like, you know, the, the personal fulfillment and self actualization as you were talking about, but it’s also about how long are you going to take to finish the degree? Right? I mean, I’m a graduate student. I’ll be candid about it. I mean, I’m, you know, in my 9th year, that’s definitely over the average sort of time to degree. A lot of that has to do with Trying to sort out sort of my own financial, you know, and my family’s financial situation at an individual level. I’m certainly not the only graduate student That’s tried to. To balance those 2 things with a limited availability of a funding to support me finishing my degree. So that’s something really just thinking about what types of opportunities are available to you and where you can get the best support for your own sort of research career if you have the choice, right? If you have the programs to choose from, if you have different types of opportunities available to you, just really thinking about that. And it’s hard when you’re just starting. Because you’re about classes, you’re thinking about where you’re gonna live. You’re thinking about, uh, you know, how you’re gonna read and pass your exams. It’s a lot of pressure, but taking some time to think about that earlier rather than later I think is really important. And then the last thing I’ll just end with to think resonates with the conversation we’ve had as a whole is trying to think about the various, you know, changes that are gonna happen to you in your life during that period of time. And how you can maybe try to anticipate some of them think about preparing, you know, for them, or just being mindful of how that might impact your financial situation. Uh, you know, changes in your in your family, right? Having, you know, a child, maybe experiencing a situation where you have to prioritize the care of a parent, um, these types of situations that can really come out of nowhere in life, you know, um, and I can say that Graduate students, I think are particularly vulnerable to these changes because the image of the graduate student is like a young person. That’s able to sort of stay up all night and eat ramen and read books. But that’s not every graduate students reality. Um, the onus is on you individually a lot of times, unfortunately, to really think about how to navigate that. And I know that for me, I think I wish I would have spent a little bit more time thinking about how my life was going to change over that period of time and how I could be better prepared for it.

48:51 Emily: That’s something I’ve definitely heard from other interviewees, um, something I also experienced to an extent while I was a graduate student. I mean, a PhD program is long. I took six years, you’re on nine now. Um, you can move through different life stages, as you said, during that period of time. And as we’ve been talking about, The economy can change underneath you. You can have a pandemic. If you started graduate school in 2018, 2019, you’re still in graduate school. Um, and so absolutely like as, as thinking of it as an individual decision, where am I going to go? How well are they going to support me there? You have to build in that. You’re going to need more support than you do at the moment, right? You can’t necessarily assume for five years, you’re going to be eating ramen and staying up all night, right? Your life is going to change and you, you have to think about those shocks. Um, but unfortunately Stipends being what they are, it’s very difficult to say, okay, I’m, I’m definitely going to go to the program that fits me best, the research interests, as well as supporting me above and beyond what my current needs and wants are, but factoring that into account, very, very, very difficult, but really, really good food for thought for anybody who is in that perspective stage.
49:56 Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Couldn’t agree more.

49:59 Emily: All right, Michael. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This has been a delight and I really appreciate you.

50:06 Michael: Thanks so much again, Emily. I really had a great time. Uh, really, really loved, I think, just being given the time to sort of reflect and think. about my own sort of financial life as a graduate student. And, uh, you’re doing such great work. And so I really love the opportunity to come on the podcast.

50:21 Emily: Thank you so much.

Outtro

50:28 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

Why and How I Started Personal Finance for PhDs

January 8, 2024 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily narrates the origin story of her business, Personal Finance for PhDs, which started as a personal interest when she graduated from college. She also shares why she has devoted her career to financial education for PhDs and the behind-the-scenes business operations. This episode is for you if you are an avid follower of Personal Finance for PhDs, a personal finance enthusiast, or interested in solopreneurship yourself.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • PF for PhDs Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients 
  • PF for PhDs Tax Center for PhDs-in-Training
  • Emily’s E-mail Address
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List 
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
Why and How I Started Personal Finance for PhDs

Teaser

00:00 Emily: You are so smart, so talented, so capable, so visionary—you are such an extraordinary group of people—that I want you to be able to experience personal wellness and satisfaction and live out your values and have a wildly impactful life. I don’t want you to feel hamstrung by money. I want you to be free to apply your incredible energy to your professional pursuits and personal lives and not be stressed or distracted or held back by your finances.

Introduction

00:33 Emily:  Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

01:01 Emily: This is Season 17, Episode 1, and today is a solo episode for me on Personal Finance for PhDs. I’ve been asked more and more in recent years how and why I started the business, so I’m taking this opportunity to tell you the origin story of Personal Finance for PhDs, why I’ve chosen financial education for PhDs as my career, and what my day-to-day work looks like. This episode is for you if you are an avid follower of Personal Finance for PhDs, a personal finance enthusiast, or interested in solopreneurship yourself. These action items are for you if you switched onto non-W-2 fellowship income as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac last fall and are not having income tax withheld from your stipend or salary.

01:50 Emily: Action item #1: Fill out the Estimated Tax Worksheet on page 8 of IRS Form 1040-ES. This worksheet will estimate how much income tax you will owe in 2023 and tell you whether you are required to make manual tax payments on a quarterly basis. The next quarterly estimated tax due date is January 16, 2024.

02:12 Emily: Action item #2: Whether you are required to make estimated tax payments or pay a lump sum at tax time, open a separate, named savings account for your future tax payments. Calculate the fraction of each paycheck that will ultimately go toward tax and set up an automated recurring transfer from your checking account to your tax savings account to prepare for that bill. This is what I call a system of self-withholding, and I suggest putting it in place starting with your very first fellowship paycheck so that you don’t get into a financial bind when the payment deadline arrives.

02:48 Emily: If you need some help with the Estimated Tax Worksheet or want to ask me a question, please consider joining my workshop, Quarterly Estimated Tax for Fellowship Recipients. It explains every line of the worksheet and answers the common questions that PhD trainees have about estimated tax. The workshop includes 1.75 hours of video content, a spreadsheet, and invitations to at least one live Q&A call each quarter this tax year. If you want to purchase this workshop as an individual, go to PF for PhDs dot com slash Q E tax. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s17e1/. Without further ado, here’s my solo episode behind the scenes of Personal Finance for PhDs.

03:38 Emily: I’ve noticed that in the past half-year or so that I’ve been getting more frequent questions about how I got started with my business, whether it’s my full-time job, and just generally why I do this. I realized that while I’ve answered these questions and told these stories numerous times over the years, I’ve never put it together coherently on my website or on this podcast, so that’s what I’m taking this episode to do. In this episode, you’ll hear the origin story of Personal Finance for PhDs, why I’m so passionate about equipping PhDs with skills and knowledge around money, and how I run my business currently. I hope you’ll enjoy this behind-the-scenes look!

Origin

03:38 Emily: My interest in personal finance goes back to my first post-college position, which was as a postbaccalaureate fellow at the National Institutes of Health. I frankly was quite privileged to not have to have given money much thought prior to that point, although in retrospect I absolutely should have. I grew up in the DC area in a middle class family, and my parents really never taught me overtly or explicitly about money beyond going with me to open a checking account when I got to college. When I started my postbac fellowship in 2007, it was the first time I had a full-time non-temporary job, so to speak. My annual stipend was $24,000. Since I had grown up outside of DC on the Virginia side and was now moving back to the same area to work on the Maryland side, I knew that $24,000 was really, really a small amount of money to try to live on in a fairly high cost of living area. I decided at that point to start learning about personal finance. I read a few books, and the one that made the biggest impression on me was Get a Financial Life: Personal Finance in Your Twenties and Thirties by Beth Kobliner. I think my baseline motivation was that I wanted to be responsible with the salary I was receiving. I wanted to do all the right “adulting” things financially, although I don’t believe that word was in popular use yet. The main actions I took following my initial reading were to track my expenses, which I did in Excel; open my first credit card; and start investing for retirement. I didn’t really let the fact of my low income or status as a trainee stop me from following the advice I was reading. Somehow, I didn’t absorb from the books the importance of having an emergency fund, and I kept absolutely no cash savings on hand. I essentially lived paycheck-to-paycheck with the exception of my Roth IRA, to which I was contributing $200 per month, exactly 10% of my stipend income.

06:04 Emily: I started my PhD in biomedical engineering at Duke in 2008, and shortly after was when the financial system and economy really started going downhill and we entered the housing market crash and Great Recession. I felt very secure in my position, so I didn’t have fear or anxiety around the continuity of my income. I again was paid a $24,000 annual stipend, but that effectively felt like a raise since Durham was a moderate cost-of-living city. During those first couple of years of grad school, I kept living pretty much paycheck to paycheck aside from my Roth IRA contributions, and I kept reading personal finance books. In 2010, I got married. My husband was also a grad student at Duke at the time. In 2011, I started reading and commenting on personal finance blogs, and I started my own personal finance blog. This was the heyday of the personal finance blogosphere, and participating in that became a serious hobby for me. I posted three times per week, mostly short essays or musings on personal finance tactics or strategy and updates on how we were spending our money. My blog was always small in terms of readership. What I observed in Google Analytics, however, was that my posts about grad student-specific topics actually had sustained traffic from search engines, specifically my posts about taxes and IRAs. I didn’t know a lot about those topics at that point, but I knew my own experiences and what I had read on the IRS website, so I was simply sharing that. But the insight I gained was that grad students were searching for these topics, and there weren’t many good sources of information, because my little blog was actually ranking well enough in search that people were visiting it. Also in that period, I attended any and all financially-related seminars that Duke hosted. I want to say first that I appreciated and still appreciate that Duke was making any kind of effort at all to provide financial education to its graduate students, but the content of the programming wasn’t exactly what was needed, in my opinion.

07:58 Emily: I remember a couple of seminars in particular from around that time. The first seminar was when a local wealth management firm sent a couple of representatives over to give a talk on investing. I attended with high hopes that they would discuss how to invest in IRAs. Instead, they talked about utilizing 401(k)s while repaying gigantic student loan debts. These advisors were clearly speaking to the professional students in the room, the future doctors and lawyers, about how they could invest post-graduation, while completely overlooking the PhD students who actually had the cash flow to be able to invest in the present. The second seminar was on tax return preparation by a local CPA. While I did glean some useful insights, my overall impression was that the person wasn’t speaking to the specific situation that the stipend-receiving graduate students in the room were facing, spending way too much time on general background information and the less-relevant higher education tax benefits and no time at all on how to deal with Duke’s confusing reporting of fellowship income. Basically, they were speaking from their experience preparing tax returns for the parents of college students, not to the audience’s experience of receiving a Form 1099-MISC but not a Form 1098-T.

09:11 Emily: In 2012, Duke started a personal finance initiative called Personal Finance @ Duke, and I volunteered as the grad student representative on the planning committee. Basically, I was there to make sure that some PhD student-specific educational programming was offered, and later on to help orient the speakers to the financial peculiarities of our population and the types of questions the audience would have. However, despite our best efforts with that tax firm, for example, we were never able to get the speakers to really meet the unusual concerns of our audience. That was when I started thinking, “I could teach this material better than these professionals are. I’m less qualified, but I know this audience better.” Fast-forward to the summer of 2014 when my husband and I both successfully defended our PhDs. My husband decided to stay on as a postdoc in his PhD advisor’s lab to get a couple more papers out the door. My advisor moved from Duke to Columbia, so there was no opportunity for me to stay on in a similar way, and in fact my defense date had been rushed due to my advisor’s schedule. The last six months of my PhD were incredibly busy, so on the other side of my defense I became happily ‘funemployed,’ as I called it, for the next year. Basically, I gave myself some time to explore and figure out what I wanted to do for my career, since I didn’t want to stay in research any longer. I explored a few career tracks through a short-term fellowship and contractor work, but nothing was exciting me as much as personal finance was. My blog had made a small amount of money in 2014, so I decided to use it to attend FinCon, the financial bloggers conference, in October. What I learned from that conference was that I had no interest in turning my blog into a full-fledged business. However, I attended a session on public speaking, which was the first time I was exposed to the concept of professional public speaking. I learned that there are three strata of public speakers. At the bottom, there are people who speak for free to promote a product or service that their business offers. That’s what those financial advisors and CPAs were doing at Duke. At the top, there are celebrities and politicians who command enormous speaking fees because of their fame and prestige. And in the middle, there are the professional public speakers who receive modest speaking fees in exchange for sharing their professional expertise or personal story. The person who ran that conference session actually spoke on personal finance in K-12 schools, so that was a little indicator to me that schools might host such speakers.

11:34 Emily: The final piece of the puzzle that would become Personal Finance for PhDs was that, with my abundant free time that fall, I volunteered to give my own seminar for Personal Finance @ Duke. Basically, I wanted to teach everything that I had learned about personal finance from books and the blogosphere specifically that would be relevant and actionable for current stipend-receiving graduate students. I had the best time creating the slides, delivering, and answering questions! I knew I wanted, somehow, to make that my career. At that point, I had identified what I consider the three core aspects of my business: 1) The people I serve are my peers on the PhD track, from undergrads applying to PhD programs through to PhDs in their first or so “Real Jobs;” 2) I help these people with their personal finances; 3) I do so through teaching or one-to-many communication. What took a little more time to figure out was exactly who would pay me for this teaching. While I have tried at different times, I am deeply uncomfortable trying to sell anything to my audience directly, particularly the graduate students. Through trial and error and learning from my peers in Dr. Jen Polk’s community, Self-Employed PhD, I identified that my clients, the people who are in a position to pay me for this work, are those who provide professional development programming to graduate students and postdocs, primarily. Mostly they are staff members who work in graduate schools, medical schools, postdoc offices, etc., but I also occasionally work with graduate student groups as well.

Commercial

13:07 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! Tax season is in full swing, and the best place to go for information tailored to you as a grad student, postdoc, or postbac, is PFforPhDs.com/tax/. From that page I have linked to all of my free tax resources, many of which I have updated for this tax year. On that page you will find podcast episodes, videos, and articles on all kinds of tax topics relevant to PhDs and PhDs-to-be. There are also opportunities to join the Personal Finance for PhDs mailing list to receive PDF summaries and spreadsheets that you can work with. Again, you can find all of these free resources linked from PFforPhDs.com/tax/. Now back to the interview.

Mission

14:00 Emily: I just gave you the narrative of how I came to start Personal Finance for PhDs, but I haven’t really told you why I cared so much about my personal finances while in graduate school and why I decided to devote my career to helping my peers in this area as well. This is the first time I’ve tried to articulate this mission, so forgive me if it’s a little rough going. There are a couple of foundational truths that I learned about personal finance early on that made it a very compelling area of interest for me. 1) How you use your money is an expression of your unique life values. 2) Having money gives you options. Let’s explore those a little further each in turn.

14:39 Emily: 1. How you use your money is an expression of your unique life values. The more closely aligned your use of money is with your individual values, the more satisfaction you will derive from that money. Money is not the only way you can express your values, but it is a very useful tool. With graduate students and postdocs, and really anyone with a lower income, it’s very difficult to align your use of your money with your values because such a large fraction of it goes toward your basic living expenses. When the vast majority of your income goes toward housing, food, and transportation, you have very limited agency to express your values and derive satisfaction from how you use your money. I find the puzzle of optimizing your use of money within the constraints of life as a graduate student or postdoc very compelling.

15:26 Emily: 2. Having money gives you options. This is an expansion on the first point. When you have money, whether that is in the form of savings, investments, or income in excess of your expenses, you have a greater ability to make choices in your life. You can extract yourself from toxic professional or personal relationships. You can choose where and how you live. You can add a child or a pet to your household or materially support other family members. You can give to causes that you believe in. How can a low-earning young professional generate this kind of financial agency?

16:03 Emily: This probably won’t be a shock to anyone listening, but after my first year or so of graduate school, I didn’t find my research to be consistently fulfilling and it felt very out of my control. I didn’t have consistent or predictable success. I only have this perspective from the many years that have elapsed since I finished my PhD, but I think my interest in and let’s face it at times fixation with my personal finances was a response to those feelings of failure and helplessness in my professional life. Improving my personal finances was something that was much more within my control. I could set and achieve process-based goals and oftentimes effect positive, measurable outcomes. So my interest in personal finance was a form of escapism. Yet, there were downstream benefits of this attention and effort, and I think they can be replicated without the large time and energy investment I underwent. My husband and I experienced what I consider to be great financial success during our seven years of PhD training. We took our combined net worth from a negative number in 2007 to over $100,000 in 2014. That’s an excellent outcome, right there in black and white. What I didn’t appreciate until that point, though, was how having that nest egg and the skills and experiences it took to build it actually could help us in our professional lives. For me, the first thing was that I could be funemployed for that first year after I finished my PhD without sinking our household. My husband’s income went up a bit when he transitioned to being a postdoc, plus I brought in income in fits and starts from my various experiments, so we were still making it month to month. But I felt a lot less pressure about needing to commit to a career and increase my income because I knew we had that nest egg working for us. That money gave me time to explore and eventually find my calling.

17:50 Emily: My husband actually had a similar experience when he finished his postdoc in 2015. He had always thought he would continue in academia or work for a large company—something stable. He came across a job listing for a role that seemed tailor-made for his research expertise and interests. The hiccup was that the job was at a start-up. We didn’t know much about that world, but we knew that he would be paid a bit less in salary and there was a higher possibility of job loss in comparison with being hired by an established company. Again, our nest egg gave him the confidence to take a professional risk and accept that role that he was so well-suited for. I had known from the beginning that your career affects your finances via the income and benefits provided to you. But this is how I learned that your finances can also affect your career. We didn’t know when we started saving and budgeting and everything that those small actions, compounded over time, would end up freeing us professionally to this high degree. This agency and confidence is what I want for all of you, the PhDs and PhDs-to-be. You are so smart, so talented, so capable, so visionary—you are such an extraordinary group of people—that I want you to be able to experience personal wellness and satisfaction and live out your values and have a wildly impactful life. I don’t want you to feel hamstrung by money. I want you to be free to apply your incredible energy to your professional pursuits and personal lives and not be stressed or distracted or held back by your finances. I will feel satisfied if I can, through my teaching, play a tiny role in enabling that success in your life by giving you financial best practices and mindsets and so forth. I don’t want you to have to go through all the self-education and experimentation that I did to get to that point. I’m delighted to interpret and refine general personal finance education for the unique circumstances of a PhD’s life.

19:45 Emily: I’ve been describing working on my own personal finances and teaching you how to work on yours, but it’s become more and more apparent to me over the years that this personal responsibility is only part of the equation. While I still consider that to be core to my teaching, it’s foolish to gloss over the responsibility that universities and funding agencies play in each PhD’s finances by setting the pay rates for assistantships, fellowships, grants, etc. and constructing benefits packages. For graduate students and postdocs to flourish and succeed in their roles, not to mention their lives, they must be paid a living wage and in fact significantly more than a living wage. Of course, personal responsibility is a requirement, but a higher income also confers the benefits I spoke of earlier. It’s obvious to me that graduate students and postdocs must be paid fairly to fulfill their potential and produce the wonderful research and become the wonderful scholars as is expected of them. In fact, by underpaying its trainees, the academic system is undermining itself and driving talented people into other sectors. Related to this issue is one of equity and the hidden curriculum that I often refer to in this podcast. Academia is more diverse and is endeavoring to become more diverse with respect to race, gender, socioeconomic class, etc. than it was in the past, but that means that more and more trainees lack access to the innate resources that their predecessors had, whether that is familial financial support, certain types of financial acumen, or insight into how academia functions, financially. If you are a first-generation college student, your parents are not necessarily able to help you decide how to manage your student loans during graduate school. If you come from a family that has never saved for retirement, you have no one to clue you in about IRAs. If your parents always had simple tax returns that they prepared with software, you don’t have easy access to a CPA to ask questions about your fellowship income. And if you’re an international student or postdoc, you’ve got to figure out how to navigate the US banking and credit systems on top of everything else. I believe universities have a responsibility to teach or at least offer to teach about these nuanced, academia-specific financial topics so that all graduate students and postdocs have access to this information that is critical to their personal wellness—in addition to paying them decently. So that’s my internal motivation for doing what I do. I want all PhDs, regardless of background, to experience personal and professional freedom and fulfillment, similar to what I have, and I believe that money is a crucial tool to master in that process. You have so much to offer the world, and I want the world to benefit from the work you do that is your true calling, all without compromising your personal wellness.

Operations

22:30 Emily: In this final section of this episode, I’d like to give you some details on how I run my business. For example, I am often asked if it’s a side hustle or my full-time job. Personal Finance for PhDs is my sole professional pursuit at this time. I would describe it as a lifestyle business. That is a pejorative term to some people, but I don’t see it in that negative light. I’ll go through now what I do for work, when I work, where I work, and with whom I work.

What I do for work

23:00 Emily: There are two main avenues by which I offer financial education, paid and free. The free financial education includes this podcast, articles on my website, and social media posts. The paid financial education is my work with universities, and, to a much lesser extent, the products I sell to individuals. The educational services and products I provide to university clients include live seminars and webinars and pre-recorded workshops. At this point, the only products I offer to individuals are my pre-recorded tax workshops and membership to the Personal Finance for PhDs Community. What might be interesting to learn about solopreneurship is that only a tiny percentage of my work time is spent actually delivering my revenue-generating financial education. The great majority of my own time as well as my assistants’ time goes to marketing and networking, communicating with clients, preparing presentation materials and rehearsing, and professional development.

When I work

24:00 Emily: I work around my children’s school schedule. In a regular 5-day school week, I’ll work about 20 hours, typically exclusively while they are in school. This gives me a bit of personal time during their school day as well as work time. I take off all of the academic year holidays and vacations that they have, such as Thanksgiving, winter, and spring breaks, federal holidays, etc. Over the summer, when we’re not on vacation, we generally put the kids in day camp so I have those weeks to work as well, maybe with a few extra days off here and there. The exception to this rule is when I travel, when I’m typically working much longer hours. I like this balance personally as well as for our family. I find I’m able to accomplish what I set out to professionally in those limited hours by being very judicious about what I take on, and I also get to spend a lot of time with my children and facilitating their relationships and development. In recent years, I’ve become a student of time management and productivity, and I try to conform my schedule and work habits to the principles I’ve learned. I theme each one of my work days so that I know what I need to do and what I don’t need to do on each day. Mondays are for creating paid content, Tuesdays are for client check-ins, Wednesdays are for business operations, Thursdays are for catch-up, and Fridays are for creating free content. That’s not to say that I don’t do other types of work on those days, only that they have to wait until my tasks related to the theme of the day are complete. I learned this strategy from the podcast Productivity Straight Talk. I only open my schedule for appointments between about 10 AM and 2 PM on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and I only record podcast episodes on Fridays in that same window. I’ve become a bit of a devotee of Cal Newport recently, so I try to follow his time block planning method, reserve time for deep work, and not let my work bleed into my personal time.

Where I work

25:48 Emily: I set up the business from the start to be location independent, meaning that I can operate the business no matter where I live. I have always worked primarily from home. Pre-pandemic, I spoke mostly in person, so I would travel to university campuses to do so. Since the pandemic started, my deliverables have transitioned primarily to live webinars and pre-recorded workshops, and I travel only very occasionally to speak in person or attend conferences. While working remotely is very convenient and easy, I desperately miss connecting with audiences and clients in person, and I don’t believe webinars are as effective as in-person seminars. I’m hoping that more clients will shift away from webinars toward either live, in-person seminars or pre-recorded workshops.

With whom I work

26:33 Emily: I call myself a solopreneur. The tax structure for Personal Finance for PhDs is a sole proprietorship, and the legal structure is a single-member LLC. My business doesn’t have any employees, only myself as the owner. I work with two contractors on a part-time and ongoing basis; you hear their names if you listen through to the end of each of the podcast episodes. Dr. Lourdes Bobbio does all the editing on the video and audio files for this podcast and my workshops, and Dr. Jill Hoffman prepares the podcast show notes, assists with delivering the pre-recorded workshops, and does other miscellaneous administrative work. I also work with other professional service providers as needed, such as CPAs and lawyers. That’s all I have to say on the matter of my business for the time being! If you have questions for me, I would be happy to try to address them in a follow-up social post, as I know solopreneurship is a path of interest for many PhDs. Please email me at [email protected]. And if you’ve been inspired by this episode to support my mission, the best way you can do so is by hiring me, if you’re in a leadership position at your university, or recommending me to a professional development-type staff member or student group leader at your university. Thank you in advance for making the effort!

Outtro

27:51 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This Grad Student-Parent Relied on University and State Benefits During a Tough Financial Period

December 4, 2023 by Jill Hoffman

In this episode, Emily interviews Dr. Laura Farrell-Wortman about her experience as a graduate student-parent at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Laura started her PhD when her daughter was an infant, so she was very intentional about choosing a PhD program that offered strong health insurance and a childcare subsidy. However, with a $9k/year stipend as the only income for a family of three, Laura’s family relied on the social safety net for a couple of years until both she and her husband increased their incomes. Laura shares the financial mindset she relied on to get through that tough period of time. Laura and Emily also discuss how the shifting political winds in Wisconsin in the early 2010s detrimentally affected the power of the grad student union at UW-Madison. Today, Laura works as a staff member at the University of Arizona Cancer Center and is making up for lost time in funding her retirement and her daughter’s college education.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • Host a PF for PhDs Tax Seminar at Your Institution 
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
This Grad Student-Parent Relied on University and State Benefits During a Tough Financial Period

Teaser

Laura (00:00): I also think it’s important to keep in mind you know, if you’re, if you’re feeling sort of weird about getting those benefits, that government benefits aren’t just you know, for people who are poor or struggling I get government benefits all the time. I get my mortgage interest deducted, right? I get my student loan interest deducted. Those are government benefits. And no, trust me, every rich person is getting every government benefit that they can. So you get your government benefits too. You earned them and you’re eligible for them.

Introduction

Emily (00:36): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:07): This is Season 16, Episode 7, and today my guest is Dr. Laura Farrell-Wortman. We’re discussing Laura’s experience as a graduate student-parent at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Laura started her PhD when her daughter was an infant, so she was very intentional about choosing a PhD program that offered strong health insurance and a childcare subsidy. However, with a $9k/year stipend as the only income for a family of three, Laura’s family relied on the social safety net for a couple of years until both she and her husband increased their incomes. Laura shares the financial mindset she relied on to get through that tough period of time. Laura and I also discuss how the shifting political winds in Wisconsin in the early 2010s detrimentally affected the power of the grad student union at UW-Madison. Today, Laura works as a staff member at the University of Arizona Cancer Center and is making up for lost time in funding her retirement and her daughter’s college education. I’ve recently joined several different social media platforms, particularly for posting short videos. I’m using the next few months as an experimental period, after which I’ll focus only on the platforms where I’ve gained the most traction. So please give me a follow and engage with me there! You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, and LinkedIn at either PFforPhDs or Personal Finance for PhDs. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e7/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Dr. Laura Farrell-Wortman.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (02:53): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Dr. Laura Ferrell Wartman. She is the current assistant director for academic programs at the University of Arizona Cancer Center, but we’re actually gonna be mostly talking about her experience as a PhD student at the University of Madison. So Laura, thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast, and will you please introduce yourself a little further for the audience?

Laura (03:16): I did my PhD in interdisciplinary Theater studies at the University of Wisconsin Madison. I was a graduate student there from 2011 to 2017. And some of the really formative things about my time there was that I actually arrived to to grad school with a newborn. And so I think that’s probably gonna shape a lot of what we discuss today.

Financial Mindset During Childhood and Early Adulthood

Emily (03:42): Yeah, so a grad student parent and a unique kind of angle on this. Certainly for our conversation, the finances of that are very interesting as we’ll see as we go through. I should mention that Laura and I met at the Graduate Career Consortium annual meeting, and so it’s always a great time when I get to meet people face to face. And just from the first very few interactions that we had in the room that we were in together, I knew that Laura had to come on the podcast. So I’m really glad that , we made this happen. Okay. So let’s go back even before you started graduate school, actually. So let’s talk about like how you grew up and how, what, what your financial mindset was like during your childhood, your early adulthood, maybe through college and post-college leading up to this time when you were in graduate school.

Laura (04:26): Yeah. so growing up I grew up in a very high income area. I’m from Princeton, New Jersey. But due to a lot of specific factors within my family there was a real trend of scarcity in my childhood. And so I really grew up thinking that money was something that was very elusive. Something that was sort of to be afraid of and something where there was just never a sense that there was enough of it. And so I think that that is something that has really impacted the way that I view personal finance, and especially the way that I view my career because I know that stability and predictability is something that is very, very important to me. And that is sometimes at odds with working in academia, especially if you are not on the tenure track. And so that it very much impacted like the way that I viewed how I was going into my career.

Finances After College

Emily (05:30): So coming out of college, I understand you, you worked for some years right before you started graduate school. Is that correct? So talk to me about like your finances during that time and that decision to go pursue your PhD, especially as it relates to these, the mindsets and, you know, everything that was going on with you financially.

Laura (05:47): Yeah. Again, I think the, the time that I had spent working was very much related to both the sort of you know, desire for that stability but also my desire to continue the research work that I had started in my undergrad. So I, I really started to explore Irish theater and particularly Irish theater of this particular contemporary period when I was an undergrad. And I knew that I wanted to continue doing that. My sister had gotten a PhD. And so that really helped me to kind of see the possibility and see, you know, the, the things that I could do with a PhD. And so I knew that I wanted to, to pursue that. But first I was gonna need to get a master’s degree and a master’s degree in theater, just the, the ROI, the return on investment there is terrible, right? Um and so I got a job at the University of Arizona. I was an admin assistant and that paid for my master’s degree. So that was like, that was like fully a financial decision in terms of where I was gonna go for my master’s degree. And I do not in any way regret that. You know, I came out of that, I paid $25 a semester in tuition. I would highly recommend it to anybody who is looking to get a degree that maybe they don’t feel like they can you know, get that ROI in. But, so that was I was working in higher ed administration essentially, and really like working my way up the ladder while I was doing that master’s degree in theater. And that set me up really, really excellently in terms of you know, when I went into my PhD, I knew the possibilities in higher ed for somebody who has a PhD in anything. Um you know, there really is a benefit in higher education to just having a PhD. And I have noticed a big difference in terms of my career options after my PhD as opposed to before at the same institute. Being a full-time student and a full-time employee is really difficult. It definitely had a lot of financial benefits. I got married during that time and my husband was able to get a, a master’s degree paid as well. And so, you know, there were a lot of benefits to it, but it was I certainly don’t wanna sugarcoat it because it was very, very difficult.

Emily (08:04): So, because you had this long-term plan of getting the PhD, using the job, using the master’s as a stepping stone to get there, I understand during that time you were also saving up, right? And so you went into the PhD with some savings. Can you talk about how you did that or why as well?

Laura (08:19): That was around 2008, 2009. Both my husband and I were very lucky not to have lost our income during the financial crisis. I actually went on to write my dissertation about the financial crisis. You know, our, our income was middling. But we had very few large financial responsibilities. We had our rent, which was moderate. We had no current payments. We didn’t have children at that point. We, we just are frugal people. And so it was you know, we had a goal of, you know, putting money aside, not even really for any particular goal. I think for me, just having that savings, again, coming back to this idea of you know, that rug could be pulled out from under you at any point. So having, you know, liquid cash savings is something that just makes me feel better. So we had a a cash savings of about $30,000 by the time my daughter was born. And that was just from, you know, the jobs we were working.

PhD Admissions and Pregnancy

Emily (09:24): Okay. So let’s talk about the admission season. You mentioned that you had at least, you know, a couple offers, one unfunded, this one from Madison that you ended up taking because you knew at that time that your daughter was on the way. How did that play into your decision of where to attend? Like what factors were you looking at?

Laura (09:44): Yeah, so so being pregnant during admission season was very interesting. I did not do any visits because I didn’t want anyone to see that I was pregnant. Discrimination against pregnant people is a very real thing. And I was really concerned that I would be you know, deprioritized if they knew that I had a child on the way. So it was important to me to know you know, what the, the funding situation and what the daycare situation was in any area that we were planning to, to move. Madison happened to be the best overlap of those things. Daycare is extremely expensive in Madison. It was actually when we were looking in Manhattan because I had applied at a couple schools in New York. The, the daycare costs were essentially the same between Madison and and Manhattan. But the University of Wisconsin has a really comprehensive student parent support, well, system of networks really. And so that was what enabled me to get a PhD in a very real way. And so I think it wasn’t necessarily the top thing that I was looking at, but it was, it ended up being the most influential part of my graduate experience.

Emily (11:11): Wow. was this something that, I guess, I don’t know specifically like the timing of everything, but is this something that you were looking at at the time that you were choosing which schools to apply to? Or was it only by the time, okay, I’ve already applied to these sets of schools, now I know my daughter’s on the way and I need to, you know, evaluate how they’re doing on this front as well?

Laura (11:31): It was a little bit of both. There’s, you know, my, my specialty was Irish theater. There’s not, you know, a ton of schools where that’s going to be a strong focus. And admittedly, some of the schools that I applied to, it wasn’t a strong focus. It just was going to be a better you know, personal situation. But I think that there was a real you know, there, there’s sort of that cliche of like, you know, there’s never, there’s never the right time to have kids, and I think that’s very true. But for us it was like, well, we wanna, we know we wanna have a kid. I know I wanna get a PhD. I, I just think that these things can probably be true at the same time. You know, I was 30 going into my PhD which I’m, I, I’m, you know, really glad that I chose that point in my life to, to have my daughter. But I think, you know, it’s a, I think if people sometimes will try to time it out in ways that I think are never really gonna be, gonna be perfect. And so for me it was a, yeah, it was just kind of saying like, well, I want these two things in my life, and they’re just gonna have to, I’m gonna have to figure it out. And we did .

PhD Program Offer

Emily (12:47): Okay. So what else were you looking at in terms of the factors? We talked about the childcare subsidy, but like, what was your stipend offer, for example, and was that in line with what you were seeing at other institutions? I understand you looked carefully at the health insurance, so let’s talk about more like those other factors as well.

Laura (13:03): Yeah. so my stipend offer so I did, I did end up getting an offer of, of support from UW. This was in 2011. It was only $9,000 a year which is, I mean, it doesn’t approach a living wage. And again, I think that there are a number of different factors that go into that. I think, you know, part of it is that you know, in, in a lot of fields they have established minimums for you know, research assistants, graduates assistants and things like that. In, in theater that in the arts in general, that absolutely does not exist. And for state universities, that is also a difficulty. But yes my offer was $9,000 a year. The that did not include coverage of my fees. So I was still paying about a thousand dollars a year in fees. I was still paying, you know, reasonable but relatively market rate, rent to student housing on campus. So most of my money kind of ended up going back to the university. I, I did have really excellent health insurance though, which is again, to be attributed to the work of the union. Graduate students received the same health insurance as staff members and I didn’t know at the time how important that was going to become, but I was, I was diagnosed with a chronic illness my second year, and probably I would’ve had to leave grad school if my health insurance hadn’t been so good. So it was, it was very, really, really important, to, to have that health insurance.

Finances in Grad School With a New Baby and a Low Income

Emily (14:55): I wanna hear more about how you actually made the finances work, like, especially in this first year of graduate school. Okay. Like, you’ve got the new baby, you’re at a new place, you’re in student housing, like you’re not making very much money. You’ve got your husband to support as well, or, you know, your husband is factoring into this as well. So like, how did that go , especially like starting in that first year?

Laura (15:15): Yeah, it was, it was really tricky. My husband was looking for work but it was, it was really difficult to find. His background had been as an elementary school teacher and he had, he had done some work as like a paralegal. His, his main sort of goal and skillset was in horticulture. And that is what he does full-time now. But at the time, and in Madison it was really difficult to find those jobs. And so he, we also had this child, this infant who needed daycare, and infant daycare is just, I mean, my God, it is so expensive. So he was thinking, well, you know, I have this education background. Lemme see if I can just get a job working at a daycare and maybe that’ll be that’ll subsidize. Eleanor’s Care didn’t really work that way. He did get a job working in daycare. But essentially the money he made just, again, it went right back to the place where he was working because it was so expensive. And so there was no, there really wasn’t a benefit to, to that work. And he, he was able to sort of cobble together a couple of things, you know, sort of, sort of like temp work for that year. But for the most part, he was a stay at home dad. And so he was taking care of our daughter, and again, we were just using that like 25, $30,000 that we had in savings. So yeah, I would say we were living off of, I don’t know, like 35, 36,000 a year for that first year.

Emily (16:52): But not of income, right? Because that’s savings supplementing, yeah.

Laura (16:55): Yeah, yeah. So really it was like, yeah, that was, you know, like a few thousand bucks that I got from my TA work. And then just pulling it straight from savings. So in, in the next, you know, couple years when I was able to I got a a second job within the department working for the theater company of the department. My as my stipend went up a bit I got like a halftime TA instead of a third time ta. So I was able to get my income by the end up to, I think like 18, 19,000 per year, which felt it, it felt like so much money at the time, . And by that point, my husband had started working for the grounds department at UW Madison. And so you know, he was bringing in more money, but not, you know, a ton. Um and so we were, we were making it work, but there was, there was nothing going to retirement. There was nothing going to savings, there was nothing going to my daughter’s college fund, things like that. So we were we were definitely paycheck to paycheck but again, I didn’t have to take those loans for living. And I, I didn’t have to take out student loans to, to survive during that six year period, which is really, really helping now in terms of making up for those, those lost years of, of wealth building.

Emily (18:17): Yeah, let’s talk about that more in a second.

Commercial

Emily (18:21): Emily here for a brief interlude! I’m hard at work behind the scenes updating my suite of tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2023. These pre-recorded educational workshops explain how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. For the 2023 tax season starting in January 2024, I’m offering four versions of this workshop, one each for US citizen/resident graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs and non-resident graduate students and postdocs. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the end users, graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs, can access them for free. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they sponsor one of my tax preparation workshops for you and your peers? I’d love to receive a warm introduction to a potential sponsor this fall so we can hit the ground running in January serving those early bird filers. You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Now back to our interview.

Using Government Benefits: Food Stamps, WIC, and Child Care Subsidies

Laura (20:12): Yeah, so because our income was so low we were eligible for, well, because our income was so low, and because we had an infant and I was within, you know, a a couple years of, of having given birth. We were eligible for a few different mechanisms. We were eligible for food stamps, we were eligible for WIC, which is stands for like Women and Infant and Children Support. And we were eligible for childcare subsidy from the state government. And so we did take advantage of each of those. We received, I wanna say like four or $500 a month in food stamps, which, you know, so that paid for like, all of our food, and that was so, so vital to us being able to, to, to make it work. WIC provided for for Formula I was unable to breastfeed after the first, you know, like couple of weeks. And so we, we had to have formula. But formula again is incredibly expensive. It provided for, you know, certain amounts and certain types of food. It was you know, more kind of staples, whereas food stamps is a lot you know, had kind of cast a wider net. And then for our daycare, once Eleanor ended up going to daycare, we were able to supplement UWs contribution with the state support. And so from there we were able to get our month, and that still didn’t cover everything for daycare, but we were able to get our monthly payment down to something reasonable.

Emily (21:55): And how long did you end up using those benefits for? Like as your, your income is increasing as your daughter’s getting older, like did those phase out over time?

Laura (22:04): Yeah, absolutely. We were on food stamps and wic for about a year. And actually that makes us essentially like the standard user of government benefits. The standard user of government benefits is white, and they were on it for about a year. And so I think that there are a lot of misconceptions about people who are relying on certain types of government benefits. But, but in truth, they mostly look like me. And it was something that we used in the short term until we were able to get our income to the point where we could pay for those things on our own. I think we used the state benefits for daycare for like two years.

Emily (22:47): Can you talk a little bit more about how, I guess maybe the decision or your like, willingness to access those benefits stemmed from your money mindset more generally in your experiences in your earlier parts of life?

Laura (23:03): Yeah, absolutely. So there were a number of things that allowed, allowed me to, to access those benefits and sort of allowed me to access them in a way that I felt confident about doing. I think it’s really important, first and foremost to say that I am white. And so, you know, being white and, you know, middle class essentially there was a lot less stigma about me using those benefits. And so I think that that is, is a barrier for a lot of people. I also had a working car and that is not nothing. So the ability for me to apply for those benefits to go pick up my WIC checks, because the WIC is like actual physical large checks, which are really embarrassing to use at the grocery store. And I had to go and get them but I didn’t have to use a bus in the, you know, Wisconsin winters. Um I had a flexible schedule. I was a grad student, right? I didn’t have to like tell my boss, Hey, I need to leave to get my, my food stamps. So there was a lot of privilege that went into being able to do that readily, easily, which is not to say it was an easy process. It was still a, you know, more of red tape and paperwork. But, but I made it work. And I think too that, you know, my, my feeling really was like, well, you know, I’ve you know, I’ve worked since I was 15. I’ve paid into this system. I, you know, if I’m eligible for these benefits, then I’m gonna take these benefits. And, and I still think that more people should have that mindset, right? Like, if you are a grad student right now listening to this and you are eligible for food stamps, go get food stamps. Like if you are eligible for food stamps, it means that you are at a level where you have a need, and this is just providing you with food. Like food, please go and do that. I also think it’s important to keep in mind you know, if you’re, if you’re feeling sort of weird about getting those benefits that government benefits aren’t just you know, for people who are poor or struggling I get government benefits all the time. I get my mortgage interest deducted, right? I get my student loan interest deducted. There’s all kinds of benefits that I get from, you know, having like, like a Roth IRA, right? I get tax advantages. Those are government benefits. And no, trust me, every rich person is getting every government benefit that they can. So you get your government benefits too. You earned them and you’re eligible for them. And so that was kind of the mindset that I, that I brought into that. And it, I’m not saying that it was always easy, you know, like I said, with food stamps or with EBT as they call it now, you get a card that looks just like a credit card and you, and you pay with that. And, and to me it’s a very dignified system when you’re actually using them. Whereas wic it’s like, I, I never had an instance of using the WIC checks where the cashier didn’t roll their eyes, didn’t sigh, didn’t sort of like give me a like, oh, great, now I gotta deal with these. And that is a real deterrent. Like, it was, it was embarrassing. And that is so unacceptable. So, so I think that there are ways that probably the government could make this a little easier, but they maybe aren’t inclined to. But yeah, I think that that was all wrapped up in, you know, again, feeling like, well, I’m a middle class white woman, I’m still going to use these.

Emily (26:44): Well, I do appreciate you talking about this like so openly. It’s something that graduate students are sometimes not aware that they can access these kinds of benefits, or in some places they actually might not be able to, even if their right income would put them at the right level because of their student status or because of the type of income that they have. So it’s certainly a state by state thing. But I really appreciate you speaking about how, like, how you thought about this at the time and how you felt like, yep, I need this, it’s a benefit. I’m gonna take it. Let’s do this even if it’s a little bit embarrassing. Because I do think that, like, like you said, you were only on it temporarily and it really helped you to move past the, the temporary income crunch that you all were in. I mean, you’re moving to a new place, you have a brand new baby, like yeah, a lot of people need help at that time of life, and you happen to access, you know, this these various social safety net aspects for that help. So anyway, thank you so much for talking about this. I really appreciate that.

Grad Student Union at UW Madison

Emily (27:38): So you’ve already mentioned a couple of times the union, the grad student union at UW Madison and how it had negotiated for the great healthcare and like this parental benefits and all this stuff. Could you talk more about your experience with the union during the time that you were a graduate student and also how the overall political climate in Wisconsin at that time, kind of the interaction between those two?

Laura (28:01): Yes. So I, I think I’m gonna do that sort of in reverse because the political climate in Wisconsin sort of heavily influenced my experience with the union. So the year before I started at UW Madison, Wisconsin had gone through a major change with Scott Walker was the new governor. And he had grand designs on leadership of the GOP think we can all recall his presidential campaign. And so one of those was to remake the labor landscape in Wisconsin. Wisconsin has historically been a a very strong labor stronghold. You know, really part of that rust belt that was, was, you know, built and facilitated by unions in a, in a, in a lot of ways. And so new legislation in Wisconsin the year prior to my arriving essentially stipulated that unions had to disband and remake themselves and that there couldn’t be a requirement for dues and things like that. And so this was you know, anybody who’s done any sort of you know, organizational work with people understands that if you have to disband your membership and, and re-up, that is a ton of work. And that’s, you’re not, you’re never gonna get everyone back. And that, of course, was the point. So there were major protests of which graduate students at UW Madison were a really important part. But it meant that by the time I arrived, the union was really trying to reconstitute itself, and I think they deserve a lot of credit for how much work that was and, and the fact that they, you know, are still an ongoing institution within uw. So they deserve a lot of credit for that. But it did change the, you know, the leadership, it changed the the makeup of the union and it changed the resources of the union. Uh so the, the union was not what it, what it had been. And the university was thankfully, you know, still honoring the commitments that they had made to the union prior to that 2011 legislation. But it did change things. Unfortunately and, you know, it’s, it’s tragic that, you know, that was, that was the, the planned outcome and it worked. But it did mean that the, the union had less power. It had less people to do the important work and I believe it had fewer actually full-time staff members which, which really made a difference. And so my, my sort of experience with it was like the, it just didn’t have the legs that it used to. But I will say that you know, having any sort of union as a graduate student can be a powerful thing. There was one instance in which I you know, I had a TA job and I was being told that it was a requirement that I work beyond my contract. And I, it was really great to be able to say like, okay, well I, like, since I’m a union member, I actually can’t. So let me just go to the union and talk to them about this request. And lo and behold I no longer had to work beyond the confines of my contract.

Emily (31:44): What I’m taking from this is that you can’t be complacent about the benefits that are offered by your university and, and if there’s a union by the union, what the union has negotiated for, because like what I’m learning kind of as I talk to people in different states and people at different stages of the unionization like process is that like, like what you experienced in Wisconsin, like things can shift politically at the state level or at the national level, and that can really shift what happens at the university level and with unions or the formation of unions. And so it’s not something you can sort of take for granted. And you’re always gonna have to be responding to those like shifting wins, I guess . And so I, so I’m learning that like, just because there is a union doesn’t mean the union is safe forever, right? You have to keep advocating for yourself and keep organizing.

Laura (32:33): And I think that that is also true for universities. And I think that part of what frustrated me sometimes about our union and, and sometimes frustrates me in in general in terms of like, you know, the way that grad students can sometimes approach their relationship to their university is that there is a sense that the university has the resources to do everything it wants to do and just won’t. And that could not be further from the truth. This is something where, you know, having worked in higher education for my entire career universities are so much more hamstrung by a lack of resources by legislatures that are not supportive or maybe di you know, directly hostile and hamstrung by the need to consistently be getting federal grants. That it’s, it’s so much more complex of a, a situation than I think a lot of grad students that I worked with at UW wanted to acknowledge that this was not us against the university universities in general you know, the people who are in them, they are not here to get rich because we’re never gonna get rich working for a state university.

Emily (33:47): Mm-Hmm. And I think, I mean, your point is, especially I think well made for public universities that have to deal with these state level like issues again and their funding, but of course, all universities are dealing with the grant funding that you mentioned from the federal government and whether it’s there and in what amount and, and so forth. So thank you so much for pointing out. Like it’s not, it’s really not, especially I would say the individuals like at the lower levels working within universities, they’re not the enemies of the students. They’re not trying to work against the students. Like, we’re just all trying to survive within the system. Okay.

Impact of Financial Experiences in Grad School on Current Financial Life

Emily (34:20): In what way has your financial experience as a graduate student continued to affect your financial life to today? Like you mentioned earlier that you did not have any room in your budget for like retirement savings, for example, and so by the time you got out of graduate school, I’m doing some quick math. I think you were 36, so you can talk about that or any other ways that, that, that experience has still had like a financial effect on your life at the present.

Laura (34:44): So yeah, the, the, the period during which I was not able to be saving for retirement or saving for my daughter’s college education that so far has been the most impactful aspect of my finances. Again, I didn’t have to to take on those loans. And so you know, that my, my, my student loan payment has not really gone up. But the, I think it’s important for anybody who is in a PhD or considering doing a PhD to understand the opportunity cost that, you know, taking that time out of your life when you’re in your, you know, twenties or thirties, that is gonna be the most impactful period in which you can be saving for retirement because of compound interest. So the more that you can put away when you’re young, the less you’ll have to put away when you are older. Um and so, you know, know now that I am 42 and you’re right, I was in graduate school from 30 to 36. I am having to put more away towards retirement, and I probably will just have a smaller retirement nest egg. I am again, lucky to be in a university where in a state where I am in a pension system. So this is pretty rare to have a defined benefit pension. But the, the pension is not what it used to be. The pension will cover maybe 50% of my expenses in retirement which is great. I’m certainly not complaining. But it does mean that like I still have to, beyond the amount I put into the pension system, I have to be putting cash away into a Roth IRA. And that’s tricky because at this point I am I am saving for my own retirement. We’re saving for my husband’s retirement we’re saving for my daughter’s college education. So my daughter’s college education is also a strong determinant of where I work because the university I work for that is our local state university offers 75% tuition discount to the children of staff members. So that’s our college plan , right? Which is kind of rough. Like I, I was always kind of taught that like, you know, I had a lot of options for college and for my daughter that is not the case. And I think, you know, for, for Gen Z in general they’re much more savvy than us elder millennials are about these things at their age. But but it still means that like, okay, you know, the, the college savings that I do are aligned with the idea that 75% of her tuition will be, will be covered. Um and that again, is not you know, that was a, a very specific choice that I have made you know, to to to, to remain at a, you know, at a university where that is gonna be one of the benefits. So, you know, that’s also something where, that’s a decision that I made based on the financial situation I was in in grad school. At the same time you know, having the PhD has increased my, my earning potential greatly. And so even though you know, I am at a state university where I can just expect that the, you know, compensation is going to be lower than in the private sector I still am able to to make the kind of salary that allows me to, to save for all those things at once. But you know, there’s still you know compromises to be made. And that, you know, frugality that that my husband and I have always really, really had, has, has come in handy because I think it also can be very tempting, particularly for students who are coming right out of graduate school to have a lot of like lifestyle creep. And, you know, your, your paycheck gets bigger and so you’re spending more money. And I think the, the, the more that you can avoid that, the better.

Emily (38:42): Yeah, you really have to have that awareness right from that first paycheck they receive, you know, post PhD, post postdoc, that there’s a lot more on your to-do list financially that there probably wasn’t graduate school if you weren’t able to get to all those items like retirement and, and college savings and so forth. But I think your story sounds like pretty like par for the course, right? Like the PhD increased your earning potential, but you lost the, to a degree, the time value of money for the time that you spent during the PhD. And so there has to be, there’s the trade off, right? But then again, I’m sure you’re in a career that you find very fulfilling, and so there’s also that aspect of it. Yeah. Okay.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (39:22): So Laura, as we wrap up, I’m gonna ask you the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best financial advice for another early career PhD that could be for a current graduate student, a prospective graduate student, like we’ve mostly talked about, it could be someone more at your current career stage, however you would like to take that,

Laura (39:40): You know, addressing PhD students and particularly PhD students who are going on the job market or are close to graduation. I really want to encourage you to keep in mind that you have a lot of options. I think that there are PhDs who will take a truly suboptimal offers like adjuncting that they do because they don’t feel that they have any options. And the truth is that with a PhD, even if, even if your job is not specifically in your field, my current job is not in the field of Irish theater. But you have options. And please don’t let academia make you feel as though you have a responsibility to, to take these sort of really terrible adjunct offers because that helps perpetuate the adjuncting system, frankly. And you have the ability to, to to have the same sort of self-worth the same sort of you know, fulfillment, even the same publication opportunities in some, in some cases without having to to stay in that subsistence situation. So just really, really understand your own earning power because no matter what field you are in, if you have a PhD, you have pretty significant earning power.

Emily (41:11): Hmm. And even pivoting outside of academia, like within academia, you feel like you’re a dime a dozen because literally your university is graduating like whatever, hundreds of PhDs each year and probably several even from your own discipline. And so you feel like, like you’re nothing. Some people might feel like they’re nothing special. But if you take your training and those translatable skills into another context, you will likely find that you actually have a lot to bring to that other context and that you can be paid very nicely for it. So thank you so much for that, the kind of like shot of confidence to those people who are in that at that point in their careers. So Laura, it’s been absolutely wonderful to have you on the podcast. I’m so glad I ran into you at GCC and thank you so much for agreeing to give this interview.

Laura (41:56): Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate It.

Outtro

42:04 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This Grad Student’s Podcast Expands Beyond Her Dissertation Topic

November 6, 2023 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Alexandria Miller, and 5th-year PhD student in Africana Studies at Brown University. In 2021, Alexandria started a podcast, Strictly Facts: A Guide to Caribbean History and Culture, to further her vision for educational equity. Alexandria participated in a business incubator program at Brown and joined a Caribbean podcast network, and she’s now considering how to transition to podcast into a business, perhaps in the ed tech space. Alexandria and Emily discuss how Alexandria manages her schedule as a grad student and podcaster and whether she is open about her side pursuit within her program.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • Strictly Facts: A Guide to Caribbean History and Culture
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • Host a PF for PhDs Tax Seminar at Your Institution
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
  • Strictly Facts Podcast (Twitter)
  • Strictly Facts Podcast (Instagram)
  • Strictly Facts Podcast (Facebook)
This Grad Student's Podcast Expands Beyond Her Dissertation Topic

Teaser

Alexandria M (00:00): At first, it started as a podcast in terms of just being a niche interest of mine in a way to bridge conversations with peers and, you know, others who I think are enthusiast of history and maybe are of Caribbean heritage like myself. But I, as time progressed and you know, I’ve been seeing how it’s grown over the last two years, I’ve really started to think about other ways to really make it a side business in itself and not just a hobby.

Introduction

Emily (00:31): Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs.

Emily (01:03): This is Season 16, Episode 5, and today my guest is Alexandria Miller, a 5th-year PhD student in Africana Studies at Brown University. In 2021, Alexandria started a podcast, Strictly Facts: A Guide to Caribbean History and Culture, to further her vision for educational equity. Alexandria participated in a business incubator program at Brown and joined a Caribbean podcast network, and she’s now considering how to transition the podcast into a business, perhaps in the ed tech space. Alexandria and I discuss how she manages her schedule as a grad student and podcaster and whether she is open about her side pursuit within her program. As I record this introduction, I have just returned from FinCon 2023, which is a conference for financial content creators. It was in New Orleans, and I had a wonderful time and learned a ton! I don’t want to overpromise, but I am hoping to make some changes in the content creation and dissemination aspect of my business, so you can expect some changes like website updates and increased social media content. I’m even toying with the idea of writing a book, which is super scary to say out loud. If you aren’t already on my mailing list, it would be so so helpful to me if you would join so you can hear about all this new and updated content as I’m rolling it out. I would really appreciate the support. As a podcast listener, a great way to get on the mailing list is to go to PFforPhDs.com/advice/ and enter your name and email there. You’ll receive access to a document that contains short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast to my final question regarding my guests’ best financial advice. The document is updated with each new episode release. Again, that was PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Thank you so much! You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e5/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Alexandria Miller.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

Emily (03:24): I am delighted to have joining me on the podcast today, Alexandria Miller. She is a fifth year PhD student in Africana studies at Brown, and we’re going to talk about her side business. Really exciting. So Alexandria, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today, and will you please introduce yourself a little bit further to the audience?

Alexandria M (03:41): Definitely. Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Roberts. It’s a pleasure to share with you, especially having been a listener of your podcast for such a while now. So as you said, I am a fifth year PhD candidate in the Department of Africana Studies at Brown. I did my undergraduate work at Duke University in history in African and African-American Studies, so similar fields nonetheless. And in addition to my work as a PhD candidate and all the things that comes with being a PhD candidate, of course, I also founded Strictly Facts, a Guide to Caribbean History and Culture in 2021. So a little bit over two years now, which is a podcast and educational platform just to expand the knowledge and awareness of the Caribbean and its history and popular culture.

Focus of Graduate Work and Podcasting Side Business

Emily (04:27): Absolutely. And so I wanna know how much overlap there is between like the work you’re doing as grad student, like the subject of your dissertation and what you’re doing with this side business. So can you explain any like similarities or differences between those two?

Alexandria M (04:40): For sure. They are not really similar. To put it simply obviously I am a historian and so my PhD is looking at Jamaican women’s history in the 20th century to contemporary times, but Strictly Facts is just, you know, more expansive in a sense. It covers Caribbean history across the region as well as the diaspora. And so not necessarily pinpointed to my specific project in terms of my dissertation, but definitely there have been crossover conversations in various episodes and things to that nature.

Emily (05:16): But it would be safe to say, is it safe to say that your, your passion or whatever inspired you to choose this as your, you know, undergraduate and graduate field of study is also what is fueling the, the side work, is that right?

Alexandria M (05:29): Definitely. I think I have always loved history and have always been looking for ways to see myself reflected in the history that I was alerting. And I think that in large part inspired my path towards the PhD in becoming a historian. It wasn’t till while in the PhD and especially after some years of work that I’ve done in terms of educational equity and accessibility, that I started also thinking of different ways outside of the classroom potentially to expand accessibility and educational equity. And you know, at first it started as a podcast in terms of just being a niche interest of mine in a way to bridge conversations with peers and, you know, others who I think are enthusiast of history and maybe are of Caribbean heritage like myself. But I, as time progressed and you know, I been seeing how it’s grown over the last two years, I’ve really started to think about other ways to really make it a side business in itself and not just a hobby.

Emily (06:30): And I think this is such an, a natural thing that happens with academics, I would say, especially the faculty level, right? But you’re getting a head start in that by doing it at the grad student level, right? Just the taking their subject matter or something broader than their subject matter and pivoting to a different audience outside that academic sphere. So yeah, I think you’re right in good company a lot of academics do this.

Alexandria M (06:53): I do, I would say so I’ve seen several who, you know, have even pivoted outside of academia into social entrepreneurship and things to that nature. I’m still sort of on the fence in terms of where I’d go because I definitely do love teaching and I am sort of looking forward to figuring out what that shift will look like once I finally finished the dissertation. Of course.

Strictly Facts: A Guide to Caribbean History and Culture Podcast

Emily (07:15): Absolutely. Is there anything else that you’d like to share with us about why you started Strictly Facts?

Alexandria M (07:20): Definitely. I think, you know, as a first generation Jamaican American, there have been several ways that I’ve envisioned just, you know, learning about my heritage and where my family comes from that I think has paralleled amongst and across people from other parts of the region. I have a great network of peers and colleagues who are either from the Caribbean or of Caribbean heritage, and we’ve had several conversations across, you know, not only figuring out ways that our histories have been linked but also there are things that, you know, based off things like national and geographic boundaries, the fact that migration, particularly to the global North, is so high for, for people from the Caribbean. There are just several ways that I think learning of Caribbean history and about Caribbean history could be expanded for those from Caribbean Heritage or from the region. And so that was another impetus for me to start Strictly Facts to really expand these conversations and unify all of the community together a little bit more.

Emily (08:26): And can you tell me more about the, the format of the podcast at least? Like is it an interview-based show? Is it solo episodes?

Alexandria M (08:34): It’s a mix of both, depending on probably how busy I am that week. So I definitely have solo episodes where I share a little bit about a topic and offer listeners, you know, additional resources and books and things for listeners to learn more. But I also have interview style episodes where different experts, enthusiasts of history, people have even came and shared, you know, sort of individual or more familial stories and takes on parts of, you know, how their families or even themselves have been part of Caribbean history. So it is really a fun thing in a sense, which is probably why it started more so as a hobby initially, but I’m definitely looking forward to expanding out Strictly Facts a little bit more beyond its podcast in the years to come.

Emily (09:24): Yeah. So going off that subject a little bit more, tell us about, I guess, the structure that Strictly Facts has taken to this point. What, what steps have you taken with it, and then what might you do in the future going forward?

Alexandria M (09:37): Yeah, so as I said, it was more so of a little bit of a hobby in a sense. And so that just meant, you know, me recording episodes and scheduling things scheduling episodes to record with guests. Since then though, of course I have been looking forward to expanding it out. And so I’ve, I am part of the Caribbean podcast directory, which has been a great resource in terms of just, you know, building the podcast community in a sense, helping me get a little bit more familiar with what that community looks like outside of, you know, getting out of my academic bubble sometimes. But also, you know, whether that be crossover episodes with other podcasters, et cetera. And really just growing my listenership. I have also, in terms of more so like the business angle of things, I was a part of Brown’s Breakthrough Lab or B Lab, which is an entrepreneurship incubator. And that really helped me to shift my framing a little bit of how I thought of Strictly Facts in terms of really considering things like consumers and, you know, where do I wanna take it and sort of the business aim, right? Am I looking towards being a solely content based business? What other ways I am hoping to expand out Strictly Facts. So that has definitely been a great help in terms of shifting towards some of my future aims. Of course though, I always say that I have two babies in a sense, finishing grad school and the dissertation and Strictly Facts. So, trying to graduate is on, is the major goal at the time, but I am looking forward to building out other things in terms of content, you know, educational products, ed tech devices and things to that nature in the future.

Brown’s Breakthrough Lab: Entrepreneurship Incubator

Emily (11:25): Wow, okay. I, I would love to hear a little bit more about this like incubator. ‘Cause this is one of those resources that’s uniquely available when you have a position, especially as a student inside of academia that would be very difficult to come by in the, in the rest of the world, right? So like, I don’t know, like what were the other students or other people who were participating in that program? What kinds of businesses were they, were they similar to yours? Were they different from yours that were involved in the incubator?

Alexandria M (11:54): I think in a large part it’s was a little bit over a year now . But it, in a large way, I think there were a lot of people who were definitely in the medical tech space creating apps for medical benefits and devices and things of that nature. So I definitely felt like I was a smaller portion of the incubator who took a sort of different focus in my terms of in, or my definition of entrepreneurship. I don’t think I even really realized it until I started sort of falling into this category that I do definitely have family members who are entrepreneurs who have their own businesses you know, primarily small businesses and what that has meant for our family and the growth and development of our family. And so I have, I used a lot of what I learned both from the incubator and as well from, you know, my own family’s perspective, family member’s perspectives to help figure out where I hope to go in the future.

Emily (12:56): Well, I think it’s just so intriguing that you mentioned like ed tech or like just the, the, I think like the productization like paths that you might be able to take from here. It just by happenstance, literally yesterday I started listening to a, a new podcast and a new to me podcast called Billion Dollar Creator and it’s co-hosted by Nathan something or other who’s the founder of ConvertKit with the email management software, which actually I use. And Rachel Rogers, who’s the founder of Hello seven, the author of the book, we Should All Be Millionaires. And so they’re talking about similar things like once you have sort of an, an area that you have that you’re getting attention in that people are coming to you for information or entertainment or whatever it is, like how can you start to pivot that and not just get paid for having people’s eyeballs on you, but get paid for something that you create from that, like a product or a service or something. And how can you then scale that to a billion dollars? So it’s very aspirational kind of podcast, but I just love that you’re, you know, that you have the opportunity to do this program and that you have these family members and just that you have these examples and influences around you that could help you think like really widely about, okay, this started as a podcast, but where else can we go from here? That’s really exciting.

Alexandria M (14:10): Thank you. Yes, definitely

Commercial

14:15 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude! I’m hard at work behind the scenes updating my suite of tax return preparation workshops for tax year 2023. These pre-recorded educational workshops explain how to identify, calculate, and report your higher education-related income and expenses on your federal tax return. For the 2023 tax season starting in January 2024, I’m offering four versions of this workshop, one each for US citizen/resident graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs and non-resident graduate students and postdocs. While I do sell these workshops to individuals, I prefer to license them to universities so that the end users, graduate students, postdocs, and postbacs, can access them for free. Would you please reach out to your graduate school, graduate student government, postdoc office, international house, fellowship coordinator, etc. to request that they sponsor one of my tax preparation workshops for you and your peers? I’d love to receive a warm introduction to a potential sponsor this fall so we can hit the ground running in January serving those early bird filers. You can find more information about licensing these workshops at P F f o r P h D s dot com slash tax dash workshops. Please pass that page on to the potential sponsor. Now back to our interview.

Podcast Visibility

Emily (15:58): Okay, so you have this fabulous podcast and it’s part of a network and you’re going on other peoples podcast and you’re inviting guests on and so forth, and it’s related to your academic pursuits. So like do people in your program, like either the faculty or the other students, like, do they know what you’re up to? Do they know about this business?

Alexandria M (16:19): They definitely do. I’ve you know, I’ve had faculty members on this show. I’ve had peers on the show. I think my cohort and many of the other students who I’m close with, whether they’re in my program or outside of Brown even have been really supportive of my show, whether that’s, you know, sharing episodes on social media telling me that, you know, oh, I read this great book, have you <laugh> considered having this person on the show, et cetera. And so it, and it is a public podcast, right? It’s across all podcast platforms will soon to be on YouTube as well. So that’s many of the other things I’m working on right now. And so yeah, it is aware, I, you know, people are aware of what I’m doing. I don’t know if they have considered it in a sense, right? I think everybody’s really busy and has, you know, their own their own projects, many other students, but it is definitely a public show and everybody knows what’s going on.

Emily (17:18): How about your advisor or your committee? Have you had any like, direct conversations with them about the podcast?

Alexandria M (17:25): Maybe not necessarily a direct conversation, but it is a public show again, and so I do think many people are still aware of Strictly Facts and, you know, the incubator was through Brown, so there are several things that, you know, if you are interested on wanting to know more, it is all out there. Yeah,

Emily (17:43): I guess I’m just thinking about, you know, some graduate students who have a side hustle want to keep it quiet and don’t want their advisor or their committee or whatever to know about it. So I, I guess maybe for you, would it be safe to say that they’re probably aware and if they had concerns they would’ve raised them by now? Like about how you’re spending your time, for example?

Alexandria M (18:02): I would say so. I, I would think so at least. And it hasn’t been raised yet, so that seems to be a good note. But again, I think the fact that it is sort of in line with my work as an educator, as a scholar also helping me build out my network in terms of my scholarship and where my work will go post graduation is I think also a major plus for the work that I’m doing in this avenue.

Emily (18:32): Absolutely. It seems to be like augmenting your career in this area rather than like detracting from it in any way. Definitely

Time Management

Emily (18:38): Yeah. Well that sounds great. Let’s talk about time management then, because you know, you, you said kind of earlier, oh, it, the podcast is so fun, it’s like a hobby, excuse me. I know that podcasting is an incredible amount of work, plus if you’re not even just thinking about the podcast, but things that like extend beyond that. So please tell us like how, how, how much time are you spending on this? How are you balancing your time? How are you, I don’t know, even like project management stuff, like how, how are you handling all this?

Alexandria M (19:07): Yeah, I mean, I am really big on organization and doing things, you know, well in advance. And so I, I think back to even March, which was like Women’s History Month, or it was Women’s History Month, right? I had that episode scheduled like months in advance and, you know, maybe the listeners wouldn’t know that it was recorded in January or whenever it was. But those things planning has been a big part of the way that I continue to make Strictly Facts and stay on top of all of my other graduate work. So whether that is using, you know, social media manager management services like Buffer or, you know, some of the other similar ones to schedule post when things are going live and all of those things have really helped me. And it, you know, as you said, it does take quite a bit of time to time, make the show, edit it, schedule, coordinate with guests and all of those things, but there are a lot of resources out there that have made the coordination and the planning of it a lot more simple.

Emily (20:12): And I, I know with graduate students, this is certainly the case with me. I was allowing my grad school work to bleed over into all the time and also would allow personal things to bleed into grad school time. It was very like fluid back and forth. I’m much more strict with myself now <laugh> now that I’m like a business owner and a parent. And so I’m wondering for you, like, do you have any like hours that you keep for either grad school stuff or podcasting stuff, or are they separate? Do you allow them to overlap?

Alexandria M (20:42): That’s a great question that I probably should be a little bit more strict and diligent on. I try to, eh, I would, I wouldn’t necessarily say I have hours particularly for either of them. Sometimes it’s, you know, as things arise, I definitely, being that I’m amidst dissertating right now, that is the main focus at the heart of everything right now. But again you know, if it is a Wednesday and we publish episodes every other Wednesday for Strictly Facts, then you know, there has to be some time devoted ahead of Wednesday. But otherwise I, they do probably bleed a little bit, which is always, you know, not necessarily the best organization. But, you know, self-care is important and I think I’ve created a decent balance, at least at the moment of taking care of myself, maintaining this business and grad school as well.

Emily (21:36): And I think it’s very dependent on like the culture that you’re in, right? The culture of academia is a lot of flipping back and forth and transitioning and letting those boundaries kind of slide. And I’ve just found like as now like a full-time business owner that I need to be more strict with myself because again, it’s, it’s very similar to a dissertation. Like the work will balloon to fill any space that you allow it to. So you have to just draw some boundaries and keep it contained. So is the podcast currently monetized in any way?

Podcast Monetization and Ed Tech

Alexandria M (22:03): Not particularly. It’s not being monetized. I have definitely had certain offers, but I’ve wanted to ensure that they really align with my mission and focus at the moment. And I think partially the reason why I’ve reiterated a few times that it started as a hobby was, is because of that it’s not currently being monetized, but definitely again, I do hope to see it balloon into a really, you know, profitable business hopefully in the near future. And so yeah, at the moment it can be seen as more of a hobby or something I’m doing in terms of mere content creation. But again business ownership is something that I think is important to me. Financial literacy and independence is also important to me as well.

Emily (22:50): Well, you always have to lay the groundwork, right? Like it, it depends on the type of business, but I think for the type of business that you’re building, it makes sense that there’s going to be a period of, and especially if you’re selective right, of no revenue or low revenue while you’re figuring out what you want everything to look like. So what do you think the next step will be like? Will it be ads on the podcast? Will it be like, what, what is your next thought in the monetization process?

Alexandria M (23:16): Yeah. I have definitely been open to ads. They just, you know, I want them to be the right one and not necessarily something random just for kicks or anything. I do definitely want them to be in line with the Caribbean education history, things to that nature, but also really hoping again to venture into the ed tech space. So whether that is creating some more of those like digital products you know, I have three nephews and a niece who are always learning and, you know, I’m always engaging with them probably in a sense to give back to sort of like my inner child and having reflected on the ways that I hoped, you know, I hoped to learn or wish I had learned at the time when I was their age. And so I’ve definitely seen what products they’ve have, you know, what my brother and sister have bought for them in terms of their learning and figuring out ways to also input and ensure that the diversity, the Caribbean region itself is also a part of that.

Emily (24:21): Hmm. Can you give us any, ’cause like my mind meant immediately went to like books, right? Even children’s books or, or a book for adults, like, which would be a natural outworking of many people’s dissertations. What like what kind of other ideas are you thinking there in terms of like, yeah, books for kids.

Alexandria M (24:39): I mean, there are books, there are flashcards. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> you know, whether they’re like little alphabet things that has big for one of my, or two of my nephews right now who are two. And so there are things like that. But I’ve also thought of different ways to engage sort of like digital humanities in a sense, but from more so like a children’s perspective, right? So whether that is, you know, apps that are, you know, teaching a different facts about the region and things of that nature. There are, I think a lot of ways that I have toyed with expanding it in the future. But we’re, I’m still, you know, sort of at that idea phase at the moment.

Emily (25:22): Yeah. And like you said, right now the dissertation is project number one, right? To get that to the finish line <laugh>. Okay. Are there any other future plans that you’d like to share with us before we sign off?

Alexandria M (25:35): Not necessarily future plans in the, you know, in a hard line to find way, but there are always Strictly Facts episodes more than 60 to date. So feel free if you’ve never heard of Strictly Facts and want to check out what I’m doing there. We publish episodes every other Wednesday, again, across all podcast platforms, be that Spotify, apple podcast, you know, Google podcast, iHeartRadio, the list could go on. So feel free to check me out there and follow me on all social media platforms at Strictly Facts Pod. And yeah, feel free to let me know if you have any questions or even wanna be a guest on the show as well.

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

Emily (26:16): I love it Alexandria. Thank you so much for coming on. But before we leave, I have to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best piece of financial advice for another grad student or early career PhD? And that can be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview or it could be something completely new.

Alexandria M (26:34): Hmm, definitely. I think one for me that has been really imperative on both journeys, whether that is grad school or you know, as a budding business owner is applying for grants and that could be, you know, maybe fellowships or things of that nature from the academic side, but also, you know, business grants, startup grants, et cetera. It has been really helpful for one, in helping me define my projects in either sense, right? Being able to explain what I’m doing, what my passions are, what the goals are of either side, whether that be dissertating or Strictly Facts. And you know, if it comes through, getting a grant or a fellowship is definitely really helpful in terms of just building out your project and however that is, and also creating a little bit of freedom, right? I think one thing for me from the academic side is, you know, potentially like not having the TA for a semester or a year even has really helped me dive into my dissertation, focus on my research and writing and helping me get it finished a lot sooner than maybe possibly if I didn’t have that freedom. And so I think grants are really helpful on either way, right? Whether that is, again, just applying and helping you narrow your focus or, you know, then at the tail end if you are successful helping you branch out and dive into your work.

Emily (27:58): Absolutely. So well put. Well, Alexandria, thank you so much for volunteering to come on the podcast. It was wonderful to meet you, to hear about your podcast and all the best for the growth opportunities in the future.

Alexandria M (28:08): Thank you so much, Emily. Thank you for having me.

Outtro

Emily (28:16): Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

This Grad Student Strives to Change Financial Policies at His University

October 9, 2023 by Jill Hoffman Leave a Comment

In this episode, Emily interviews Jason Anderson, a 5th-year PhD student in aeronautics and astronautics at Stanford University. Thanks to his work experience prior to grad school, Jason developed an unusual ability to read legalese and view every “no” as a starting point for negotiation. Both as a part of the Graduate Student Council and independently, he has advocated for changes to the benefits Stanford offers to its graduate students, particularly with respect to retirement accounts, health care options, transit, and income tax on fellowships. Emily and Jason have a lively conversation regarding the history and current status of these benefits at Stanford and at other universities, culminating in Jason’s advice to other grad student advocates and personal financial advice for all graduate students.

Links mentioned in the Episode

  • How to Not Hate Your Fellowship During Tax Season
  • Emily’s E-mail Address
  • Host a PF for PhDs Tax Seminar at Your Institution
  • Student Exception to FICA Tax, Treasury Decision 9167 (Example 8 on page 24)
  • Host a PF for PhDs Seminar at Your Institution
  • PF for PhDs S14E2: How This Grad Student Fellow Resolved an Expensive Tax Bill in His Favor
  • PF for PhDs Subscribe to Mailing List
  • PF for PhDs Podcast Hub
  • Jason’s Website
  • Jason’s LinkedIn
This Grad Student Strives to Change Financial Policies at His University

Teaser

00:00 Jason A: So they made some changes this year that I, hopefully will alleviate the problem. But, you know, this problem could have been alleviated years ago if they were listening to the students.

Introduction

00:16 Emily: Welcome to the Personal Finance for PhDs Podcast: A Higher Education in Personal Finance. I’m your host, Dr. Emily Roberts, a financial educator specializing in early-career PhDs and founder of Personal Finance for PhDs. This podcast is for PhDs and PhDs-to-be who want to explore the hidden curriculum of finances to learn the best practices for money management, career advancement, and advocacy for yourself and others.

00:47 Emily: This is Season 16, Episode 3, and today my guest is Jason Anderson, a 5th-year PhD student in aeronautics and astronautics at Stanford University. Thanks to his work experience prior to grad school, Jason developed an unusual ability to read legalese and view every “no” as a starting point for negotiation. Both as a part of the Graduate Student Council and independently, he has advocated for changes to the benefits Stanford offers to its graduate students, particularly with respect to retirement accounts, health care options, transit, and income tax on fellowships. Jason and I have a lively conversation regarding the history and current status of these benefits at Stanford and at other universities, culminating in Jason’s advice to other grad student advocates and personal financial advice for all graduate students. You’ll hear in the second half of this interview that Jason and I dive into some of the issues regarding fellowship income and taxes, which as you know is one of my favorite subjects. By happenstance, we recorded this interview in late September 2023, and in early October, about a week before this episode publishes, I’m scheduled to give my new webinar, How to Not Hate Your Fellowship During Tax Season, for Stanford. I’m crossing my fingers that it really helps alleviate the stress of the grad students and postdocs and is received well, like it has been the other times I’ve given it.

02:18 Emily: If you’d like to bring that webinar in particular to your institution this fall or any of my pre-recorded tax workshops now or during tax season, just reach out! I would be happy to chat with you and give you more information that you can take to your graduate school or postdoc office to ask for this kind of support. You can reach me at [email protected] or read more about these offerings at PFforPhDs.com/tax-workshops/. You can find the show notes for this episode at PFforPhDs.com/s16e3/. Without further ado, here’s my interview with Jason Anderson.

Will You Please Introduce Yourself Further?

03:06 Emily: I’m so excited to have joining me on the podcast today, Jason Anderson. He is a fifth year Ph.D. student in Aeronautics and Astronautics at Stanford University. And Jason was actually connected to me by some of my contacts at Stanford who are hosting me for a webinar at the time of this recording. It’s coming up in a couple of weeks, and they told me that Jason is the person to talk to about some of the financial policy questions and concerns that the students may have. So that’s kind of going to be our topic for the podcast today. The advocacy work and the areas that Jason sees room for improvement in in terms of financial policies at Stanford and possibly at your institution as well. So, Jason, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the podcast. It’s a pleasure to talk with you here. And will you please tell us a little bit more about yourself?

03:49 Jason A: Sure thing. Thanks, Emily. It’s a pleasure to be here. And I’m really glad that I’m going to be able to share this knowledge. I’m really excited to help graduate students get get every everything they deserve. So as you said, I’m a fifth year aeronautics and astronautics student. My research pertains to augmenting GPS signals with cryptography in a way that is efficient and manageable. You know, GPS signals are have been around for a while, and cryptography requires a lot of data. So that’s what my research is about. And my hobbies would definitely be emailing administrators to get them to do things that the grad students need, you know, blow off steam. You know, that does come from some of my background working for and the legal field for a while writing those nice, crisp emails.

Connection Between Legal Experience and Advocacy

04:47 Emily: Let’s talk more about that experience that you had prior to starting graduate school. Yeah. So you were working in the legal field to some degree. Tell us about that experience.

04:59 Jason A: Yeah. So before Stanford, I went to UC Berkeley, go bears, and I needed to make a lot of money for my out of state education to be able to afford that. So, you know, I was a freshman engineer and applying to all these jobs to try and get myself an internship. So I, you know, I’d have have to have that income. You know, one of the checkboxes on one of those large websites was legal intern. And so the only job that returned to 19 year old Jason was that legal job. So it turned out to be a really interesting experience for me. I worked I worked there for between three or four years, actually, as a as a telecommute or working, you know, lots and lots and lots of hours and, you know, hours functioned as an executive assistant, which, you know, scheduling meetings, phone calls. But also my mentor allowed me to learn a lot about legal things. So I spent a lot of time reading agreements and reading laws, trying to trying to, I don’t know. So there’s this, you know, not to be cliche, but there’s this Sun Tzu person who wrote The Art of War. And, you know, his his main mantra was the art, the supreme art of war is to wage war without fighting. And so that’s like a big that was a big context for me. And the law of trying to use and take pieces together, strategy of trying to fix issues, using that. And then so that sort of prepared to me for a lot of the advocacy work today. And then after that experience, I worked at a different defense contractor and then came to Stanford. And so I have served as the in the student government here. I had no interest in student government in my undergrad. And it was not until I needed things that I became interested, like with regards to health care, retirement transit, a bunch of other benefits that I wanted I didn’t have. So I came to that quest to get them. And then, you know, so Stanford just voted to unionize and I am involved with that. So our union, as you know, is is undertaking a lot of these issues to help graduate students afford living. So here at Stanford, there are a lot of issues with affordability because, you know, Stanford is a very, very high cost area to live. So, you know, we have a lot of people going to the food pantry are especially partners with children, you name it. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done to make sure that that Stanford is affordable. So and that’s that’s part of what I’ve been working on in my as my hobby project, I suppose pretty serious hobby. But, you know, I still work full time as a graduate student.

08:07 Emily: Well, thank you so much for telling us about that experience. And we’ll get into talking about these specific benefits in a moment. But I just wondered if you could really explicitly make this connection between having this experience, being able to read legal documents and grappling with that kind of language and how you’ve been able to employ that past experience and that skill in asking for finding, advocating for the things that you and your peers need.

08:34 Jason A: Well, so I say that the first sort of thing that comes to mind is like the grit to even though when somebody says no to you, it’s not actually a no. So like, for instance, one of the items we’re going to talk about is retirement and when we get to there, we’ll talk about someone gave you a legal opinion that turned out to be false. And so, you know, when someone says says no to me, it’s it’s just not no. There’s still ways there’s still a way that you can you can talk. There’s a way to position yourself to respond back in such a way. Because, you know, Stanford or pretty much any school administrator is counting on you going away like. Right. So students are there in and out. And if you can just persist just a little bit, you know, you’ll be 100 times more successful. Ah, let’s see there are a lot of student government things that come to mind, like, you know, I got food trucks to come on to campus. That was a that was quite the ordeal. You know, for someone said, well, we can’t do this because these four different department departments need to approve, you know, like the infrastructure and then, you know, like, you know, parking, transit and then fire and then police and then, you know, these other things. And anyway, so the persistence that comes from being able to respond back, you know, when somebody says no, but also to read the documents because someone says no to me and I’m like, well, can you point to me the written rule of why somebody say, no, no, they they might not be able to point to a written rule. What they want you to do is they’re just so used to saying, Oh, I can just say no to this person and they won’t question. And then, you know, there are a couple of times where somebody says no to me. I ask them where in the rules it says that. And then they’re like, Oh, well, we reconsidered. So yeah. So being able to essentially mean where can I appeal. Right. If you know I do appeal, well then yeah. So

10:41 Emily: Yeah, it’s kind of appealing or negotiating and also like asking for your source. Like if you’re telling me there is a rule, okay, I’d like to take a look at it myself. Would you send me the link? Would you send me the document? I found the same thing that people have an impression of what rules are, and that’s actually not literally how it’s written or they’ve misinterpreted maybe what was written. And there’s another way to interpret it. Yeah.

11:05 Jason A: Everything’s sort of like a game of chicken when you’re trying to spar with someone. So their game with chicken is all the same. I just said no, they’ll go away. My game of chicken is I need the rule and they’re going to have to do the work to find the rule. And then they’re going to they’re going to realize, I don’t want to do that anymore. And it’s easier just to let me get what I want. So anyway.

11:26 Emily: I like what you said, though, about, like, oftentimes administrators. I mean, I don’t like to ascribe ill will to people. That’s not very, very, very obvious that that’s what’s going on. But a lot of times people are just overloaded and it’s easier to say no or just dismiss you or whatever, because it would create more work for them. But if it’s really important to you and important to your peers, then you should both try to come to a solution together. That’s mutually appealing.

11:53 Jason A: It helps I don’t take things personally on these types of issues. You know, I am I’m not someone who takes things personally, so it’s cold water on a duck’s back to me. But I can still write that emails to respond back. But yeah,

Retirement Negotiations

12:06 Emily: All right. Well, let’s get into these enticing areas of negotiation and pushback that we talked about before. So I want to hear about your kind of personal experiences working with or against or whatever the Stanford administration in these these four areas. Okay. We’re going to talk about retirement, going to talk about health care, transit and then income tax withholding, estimated tax. So let’s start up at the top with retirement. Can you give me a summary of what’s going on right now and what you have tried to ask for, what you’ve tried to advocate for?

12:39 Jason A: Well, so I have the privilege of having some extra income. You know, not everybody at Stanford has that. But one of my goals is to save 15% of my income. If you start early, this is what Fidelity says it’s only 15%. But a Roth IRA isn’t sufficient for that. And, you know, I think retirement is more like a public health issue. So in that you should have it deducted and not think about it, because if it’s not there, then people aren’t going to do it. So that’s why I think the employer deduction is really important.

13:12 Emily: That’s why people are moving to opt in system or rather opt out systems rather than opt in systems that are normal type of workplace.

13:19 Jason A: Yes. And then also my first year, I needed to borrow for my retirement from my company because I was in a cashflow pinch for about three months. And I was able to do that because I was still employed. I was simultaneously employed. If I didn’t if I weren’t simultaneously employed and I would have you know, you have all these graduate students who are super cash for. But you know something? A lot of them work between undergrad and graduate. So, you know, if Stanford provided this retirement benefit, then, you know, a lot of things happen. You know, you can do that public health savings, you can borrow from it. And, you know, and the benefit is very cheap. So, for instance, another company I work for, I know that the price per person participant is about $4 per month. And that’s actually a very expensive plan. So what my my knowledge is, is that I know this is very cheap and it’s extremely beneficial. I mean, it’s essentially helping grad students avoid taxes from the federal government. Right. Or avoiding shark loans.

14:21 Emily: Absolutely. And furthermore, I mean, Stanford and every university already operates a 403(b) plan at a minimum. And that’s the plan we’re talking about here for the listener. We’re talking about expanding access to the 403(b) plan that the university already has for its employees and faculty and everybody to the graduate students who are also employees. Correct?

14:42 Jason A: Yeah. Yeah, that’s exactly right. 401- 403(b) for for my institution because I guess we’re we’re exempt from income tax. But yeah.

14:53 Emily: Yeah. And so you’re saying, yeah, just what you said. Like if a student came in, let’s say they had a 401K or a 403B at a prior employer and they were able to roll it into Stanford’s 403B plan and they’re currently an employee at Stanford then like you did, they would be able to take a loan or while withdrawal could happen either way, but a loan against the four oh three B and then be able to pay it back gradually over time to alleviate the cash flow crisis. As you said, that is so common, especially the start of graduate school, very, very expensive transition. Generally speaking, they’re not helping you at all or very much so. Absolutely. That makes sense. And as you said, to continue the, I think it’s partially like a mindset thing, like because four oh three B’s are not typically offered to graduate students. It’s like not it’s not on their mind. It’s like an out of sight, out of mind thing about saving for retirement. And as you said, if possible, saving something like, you know, a few percentage is fine, but up to 15% would be an amazing goal to be able to accomplish during graduate school. And without the employer support on that, it’s easy to put it on the back burner. It takes a lot more initiative to open up an IRA, you know, separately from what’s going on at work.

15:59 Jason A: Yeah. The only reason why I was on my mind is because while I’m out of Berkeley does this. All right? Right. And so, you know, there are institutions out there that do do this. So

16:09 Emily: Okay. And so what communications did you have with the administration regarding the 403B?

16:14 Jason A: So, you know, student government is its own own thing. And, you know, so on the docket list of priorities, retirement is at the bottom one. Okay, because there’s far more important issues. Okay. But it also costs the employer nothing. Postdocs already have this. Okay. So this is like at the bottom of the list. You know, we’re hoping that they’ll give us the crumbs or whatever. Right. So when I pursued this avenue of advocacy several years ago and the response was, well, so if we give you this plan, then you’ll lose your FICA tax exemption. So just for your readers, graduate students and students in general do not have to pay FICA taxes and which is seven and a half percent off if your paycheck for Social Security and Medicare. So it’s like, Oh, wow, Well, we wouldn’t want to give up seven and a half percent of our paycheck. So I can I can have the option of putting 1% away. Right. Well, so you know that that’s where the legal experience comes in. I’m like, well, they said no for a very good reason to me. And so I go through and read the IRS law and I look up, I see I pull up the document just in case, you know, document number 9167, And on page 24, the IRS provides a comically helpful example that explicitly explains that graduate students can participate in the form of 403B plan and not be FICA exempt. And this is like so you know that tenacity I’m talking about. Well, I read that document from page one through page 30, right? It takes a lot of gumption, I think is to read through really boring topics like this. And it turned out to be helpful. So then as a student government, I got some pro-bono advice from a retirement lawyer. After I wrote my own opinion, I had the lawyer look over it and then I sent back this demand letter that says What you said is not true. And no, and we should be able to get this. And then so then after that, they’re like, Oh, well, nobody would use it. And, you know, the survey data that I have by most, my constituents shows that that’s not the case. People would in fact use it. But, you know, you know, I’m hoping that different organization, hopefully our union will be able to win that. But, you know, there’s a lot of other priorities, too.

18:30 Emily: Okay. So that’s the current status of you think you’re in you’re in the right here, at least their excuse number one was not a valid excuse. I haven’t looked at this myself. It’s very interesting to me. I’ll have to check this out after the end of the podcast interview. And that’s where it stands right now. You’ve knocked down their argument, but no further progress.

18:49 Jason A: Yeah. I mean, I think food insecurity and affordable housing and health care are much more important issues. But, you know, two years ago when I was working on this, I was, you know, you know, Thursday evening, I’m like, we’re doing my research and I’m like, oh, thank you, IRS they like, I’ll give you an example. Like, student J, is this No, they are exempt from FICA, which is I think it was kind of comical, but yeah, they didn’t do their homework or they were they’re lying to me to give me a go away. I mean, who knows? You know, I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but at the same time I think it’s clear and Berkeley and other universities are able to do it.

19:31 Emily: Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I agree in terms of, like, basic needs, you know, paying people enough that they don’t have to access food pantries and be housing insecure and all these things very important. But there’s also like the optics on, hey, like let’s treat grad students like they’re real employees and give them real benefits that other people have in other places. It’s quite standard. So there’s that aspect of it as well. But thank you for filling us in about that, because I am quite sure that many, many grad students around the country would also like to use their universities for 403Bs and you know, maybe they can get a little budge on this like you have so far not been able to, but good efforts to move on to the second topic of health, health care, health insurance.

Health Insurance Negotiations

20:13 Jason A: Yeah. So Stanford you know your readers can Google Stanford Bill on affordability and I, I wrote with my colleagues in the graduate Student Council 10 page actually explaining why Stanford is not very affordable. But one of those things is health care. We have the most expensive health care plan that I can find. And then one of the things that is expensive about it is that Stanford students, rain or shine, I have to pay $1,000 per year for their primary health care. I do think that other universities have similar fees, but they’re covered by their tuition. So I do have family who are health care administrators, and I’ve  participated in health care advisory boards. So it’s typical for an employee, an employer, a large organization to have advisors on benefits. Stanford faculty have this, Berkeley students have this. We’re still working on Stanford students, but essentially the students come together and they advise on what benefits should they should they have like, oh, graduate students need wisdom teeth surgery because we’re young or prescription eyeglasses would be nice at Stanford they’re not covered, you know, things like that. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be cost positive or neutral. The point is, is that people should have a say because they pay into the plan. And the administrators, I think, don’t have the best knowledge. The students have the best knowledge. So that’s something I’ve been fighting for for more than two years. I mean, retirement is probably the interesting thing about the taxes and whatever. But, you know, you know, you know, we’re that’s the thing I’ve been working on for a long time. So, like, for instance, Stanford recently changed and they passed just a smidge on allowing student advice on that topic. But they retracted actually. So we’re we’re still fighting for back. But essentially, you know, the advice that I was able to talk about is, you know, students want an app to use their health care because last year, in order to get claims processed, you had to mail in the claims and pulling your hair out like, I don’t know, maybe your readers have an app for their health care, right? So I had to help. I had an app for my parents when I was on my parents insurance. And then and then. Furthermore, the plan is a very high level plan which sort of prices out. Most everybody, only people on the plan have it subsidized. So, you know, the professional students are really hurting right now because they might be over the age of 26 and their only health care options are Obamacare or Medi-Cal or this plan that Stanford offers. So I’m really, that’s something that we’ve been asking for. And, you know, I think we’re going to get it with the with the union. But, you know, I wish that Stanford was as good as Berkeley, so I’m wearing my Stanford shirt. But, you know, Berkeley has been doing this for years. I wish Stanford would catch up on this on this regard.

23:11 Emily: Well, it’s good to have a nearby, you know, peer type institution to compare to and say what are the best practices that we can take from over there and share back and forth? I think in our prior conversation, you mentioned to me that the annual premium, if I remember correctly, for like a like a single person enrolled on the health insurance plan was like $7,000, is that right?

23:33 Jason A: Yeah. So the aggregate expenses are a 68 plus 1000. So I think about 77 to 7800. And if you have a student partner with a child, the premiums are 12 grand a year. At least 12 grand last year might be 13 this year. So and so to me. So, you know, there’s been issues with the plan because it’s in low participants and they’re apparently in a spiral out of control. And, you know, you wonder why it’s so, so, so expensive that nobody can afford to use it. So, yeah, to me, that price is like, please go away. That’s what the premium says, Please go away. So and then especially to our Stanford International students who bring partners and children and they have visa restrictions preventing them from getting other jobs, you know, those are the people who are at the food pantry every month because they are doing their best in such an unconscionable circumstances.

24:40 Emily: I can confirm when you said that number to me in our previous call that really raised a red flag for me, that that was very high compared to what I hear at other institutions. I want to say. I mean, I was in grad school some number of years ago, but I want to say it was like 2 to $3000 for the year for the premium for one person. So, yeah, a very different price level between those two. So that’s interesting that you. Okay, so you’re saying there it’s an under enrolled plan because the price is so high, which causes the price to go higher. So it’s like in sort of a death spiral. But the competition, let’s say, okay, if you’re a student, you can enroll in this plan. If you’re still under age 26, maybe you can enroll in your parent’s plan or maybe have a spouse. You know, there’s other places people can go, but then that last resort is like the ACA exchange rate versus the Stanford plan.

25:26 Jason A: Yeah, what’s sad about that is you lose a bunch of tax subsidies, right, because that’s why your employer pays for your health care. You know, and there are some tax subsidies. You know, I haven’t done my research into it, but I mean, it’s a very it’s it’s really structured that your employer should pay for this. And also the plan here is for the facilities nearby. If you go ACA, you know, who knows where you where you’re going to be and especially those international students who are coming into this health care system and don’t know what is going on. But yeah, yeah. And part of the reason why the plan is so expensive is because all all Stanford, pretty much all the health care, you have to go to the hospital. And Stanford also is a nice hospital, but it’s impacted. So like I tried to get an appointment nine month waiting time for myself, you know, So they made some changes this year that I hopefully will alleviate the problem. But, you know, this problem could have been alleviated years ago if if they’re listening to the students. So yeah. And also say a lot of this is my opinion. So take that with every grain of salt.

26:37 Emily: Absolutely. Okay. So the idea here is to get a committee, a student group that advises on the health care plan. And right now you’re voicing a main concern is it’s very expensive and it’s driving people away.

26:51 Jason A: Yeah. And I’m not the only voice. I mean, people talk about the mental health issues. There’s the minority disparities in health care that, you know, my family members talk about that I think are insane. You know, this is the type of feedback that needs to come in. And I think the best way to resolve it is to have everybody speak their own voice. And I just I’m just one voice. That’s why it needs to be a committee

27:13 Emily: Okay. Well, thank you so much for bringing that up.

Commercial

27:15 Emily: Emily here for a brief interlude. Would you like to learn directly from me on a personal finance topic, such as taxes, goal-setting, investing, frugality, increasing income, or student loans, each tailored specifically for graduate students and postdocs? I offer seminars and workshops on these topics and more in a variety of formats, and I’m now booking for the 2023-2024 academic year. If you would like to bring my content to your institution, would you please recommend me as a speaker or facilitator to your university, graduate school, graduate student association, or postdoc office? My seminars are usually slated as professional development or personal wellness. Ask the potential host to go to PFforPhDs.com/speaking/ or simply email me at [email protected] to start the process. I really appreciate these recommendations, which are the best way for me to start a conversation with a potential host. The paid work I do with universities and institutions enables me to keep producing this podcast and all my other free resources. Thank you in advance if you decide to issue a recommendation! Now back to our interview.

Transit Negotiations

28:35 Emily: Third on our list is transit. Tell us what you’ve been doing on that front.

28:40 Jason A: Stanford took away free transit benefits and May June and people are very angry about that. So I’m

28:49 Emily: Are we talking about on Stanford’s campus like busses? Are we talking about trains or what level of transit?

28:55 Jason A: Trains, yeah so rent is very, very expensive in Palo Alto. I don’t know if you’ve heard of so there’s a train that was very convenient that Stanford used to use, used to purchase the monthly pass for, and so I’d like to see that returned. Furthermore, I like on the subject of retirement benefits, costing them nothing. Every employee at Stanford has access to purchase those tickets pretax, which is an effective 30% discount to Stanford students. Right. So and yet another payroll benefit that costs them almost nothing that they can extend so that their employees get thousands of dollars every day. So I would say that that is the transit element that I would like to see happen.

29:40 Emily: Plus the environmental benefits of incentivizing, using public transit over other forms of transportation.

29:47 Jason A: Absolutely. As part of, you know, the Stanford just inaugurated a new school called the Doerr School of Sustainability. So yes, I totally agree with those arguments, although I am a little bit focused on the taxes because I’m a little bit biased on. Yeah.

Income Tax Withholding Negotiations

30:03 Emily: Great. All right. Fourth topic and one of my favorites, the lack of income tax withholding on paychecks for non employees who are U.S. citizens and residents of for tax purposes. And for that group, the possible requirement to pay estimated tax. So this is the issue that you and I first got connected over. So, yeah, I’d love to hear what you’ve been talking about on that front with the administration.

30:29 Jason A: You know, Stanford is an educational institution and I think it is on them to educate their students on their taxes. So one of the things I’ve been working with, graduation council, are these tax office hours. Well, where the government, the student government will purchase the CPAs time and will, you know, explain how to, how to do this. Students really don’t know. You know, I was fortunate enough to grow up in a high school district that literally made every single 18 year olds in your file taxes by hand and like a dummy scenario. So like I you know, you can go to the post office and get your tax forms. I didn’t know that. Right. So I came in knowing every single dollar that I earned, I have to pay tax. A lot of people don’t know that. So at the office hours, you have a wide breadth, you have your international student who’s dealing with tax treaties and all sorts of stuff, and then your domestic student who is this is their first time in their entire life that they’ve earned income and it’s a fellowship and they don’t get their W-2. It’s not you know, TurboTax can’t handle it. And, you know, TurboTax and professionals will get the advice wrong on certain aspects. So one of the things that I was fortunate enough to get Stanford to do is to take a stance on health care fees, the taxability of health care subsidies on fees. So a lot of students at Stanford, which is really why I’m excited to talk to you today, are are falsely paying taxes on their health insurance stipend. So they they get charged at Stanford $7800 a year and some people that’s partially subsidized and then it’s reported funk funky on the 1088 and 1098 is not an income tax. It’s just a it’s just a education benefits, deductions and credits right and graduations aren’t taking those deductions and credits. It’s really the wrong form for them. So you know stand for housing affordability issue. But, you know, I’m so glad that Stanford talked to you. I mean, the reason why they’re hiring you for this is I’m hoping, you know, so we can save graduates from $3,000 of taxes a year. Right. We have an affordability crisis where people are going to the food pantry every month with their wagons and children. This is $3,000 that they don’t have to be paying. Right. And so, you know, when I was student government and I had this from government to government is paying a CPA like $500 for their time. Right. And then you’ve got 100 people coming in and they’re overfull and each one of them is is saving thousands of dollars. Right. This is like the, you know, retirement, transit. But this tax stuff is probably the easiest way that Stanford can take initiative and stop all of this. You know, years ago when I was starting my advocacy on this, a Stanford person told me that that the interest and penalties that students pay every every April as part of their tuition rate, as part of their tuition, they don’t know. They come in. They they don’t know they need to make estimated payments. And then they get you know, they get those fees. That’s their tuition. It just made me so angry that they that they could send an email to everybody today. But this is an example of tenacity where Stanford’s like, it’s not my problem. I don’t want to be liable. What not. Right. But that’s not true. Okay. They they can say this is what a typical student does. You know, my high school in Marietta, Georgia, explained to us how to file taxes in a theoretical scenario. Stanford can do it, too. So, you know, I’m really glad that you’re coming on, you know, a couple of weeks to talk about that. So that’s the end of my long rant. But I could go on.

34:16 Emily: Absolutely. I mean, you hit on several different issues in there, which I think are incredibly important. So let’s start with that. Okay. $7800 in what I in my framework, it’s called awarded income. So it’s fellowship scholarship type income, not reported on W-2. That’s what I call awarded income. And as you were saying earlier, awarded income. Like you have to assume it’s taxable right from the outset. You have to assume that as part of your taxable income, unless you can prove that it went towards paying a qualified education expense and then it gets to be tax free. So the argument here is that whether or not health insurance premium paid, you know, for university health insurance for a student is considered a qualified education expense. And in my opinion, the opinion of the CPA hired to, you know, work with me on this. It is under limited circumstances where it’s required of the student and the student is purchasing it through the university. And that means that that premium or that means that the amount of money that goes towards paying the premium gets to be tax free because you all have such a high number on that. That 7800 really makes a big difference to you all, especially it’s going to be a lesser effect at other other institutions, but still in effect. And so it is an important thing to know that if you receive a 1098-T, that amount of that premium is not going to appear in box one as a as an education expense because it’s not a qualified education expense for the other benefits. As you were saying earlier, the Form 1098T is not designed for the tax free scholarships and fellowships benefits. It’s designed for the lifetime learning credit. It’s designed for the American Opportunity Tax Credit. But that’s not the one grad students are taking. They’re taking tax free scholarships and fellowships. So anyway, the 1098T is like, okay, as far as it goes, but you have to have this inside knowledge that it’s not a complete document. It doesn’t actually list all your qualified education expenses. And that’s a real disconnect. People think they receive a form and it’s kind of trustworthy and it’s really not. You have to double check everything on it to make sure that it’s complete and accurate for your situation. Oh, I’m going on my rant now too.

36:11 Jason A: Yeah, well this is why it’s really important to read those really dull IRS instructions after having three and a half years of legal experience. And you view me the legal brains like, well, health care is disallowed in sections two and three for undergrads, but it’s not disallowed in section one for graduate students. And then you’ve got a CPA. So like I’m in office hours, I’m literally arguing with someone who is has their own tax advice over the phone. And I’m like arguing with the professional over this because they’re wrong, because professionals get this wrong. And this is why Stanford needs to step up and take a stance here, because that’s a lot of money here. And anyway, it also kind of points to how our government should function because it shouldn’t require years of legal experience to be able to navigate our tax code. 

37:02 Emily: I totally agree. It’s interesting that you and I have kind of come to this in a similar way of just like I just I just read the thing like, I just sat down and read it, like, completely. And once you do that a few times over a few years, like you kind of get used to the language and it’s not so intimidating. And you can make those connections like, Oh, the definition of qualified education expense is different depending on which benefit you’re talking about. Oh, the definition of earned income is different depending on which tax benefit you’re talking about, but you only pick up on that after, you know, exposure. And as you’re saying, it doesn’t it’s very hard to find, I mean, this is the experience my client is. But if you work with me, it’s because they can’t find a CPA who’s versed in this because it doesn’t pay. This is not their typical client base. And so you either have to find a CPA and really educate them or somehow find a magical unicorn, which I have not found who is like already well versed in this. But anyway, that’s why people end up working with me, because while I’m not a CPA, but I have read this and I’ve really tried over years, including professional consultations to understand what’s going on, and now I can communicate that

38:04 Jason A: Yeah, I mean, humans were never meant to read all IRS instructions document, so I don’t really want to fault them for it, but that’s just the world we live in. So.

38:16 Emily: It’s tough, especially because even many tax preparers, CPAs included end up relying on software to prepare the returns, and they’re not necessarily deeply analyzing what goes in and what comes out of that software. And if the software, as you said earlier, like TurboTax, is not designed to handle, like you can do it if you know the tricks, but it’s not intuitively designed to handle this income. And so if the software is letting you down, but you don’t even know enough to know that it’s letting you down, it’s a really, really tough area. Oh, I’m getting fired up about this, too. I’m like, I need to create a software solution. Okay. Anything else you want to say about this topic of estimated tax or the reporting or the taxability of like this fellowship type income?

38:55 Jason A: You know, I just want to add like my one sentence obstruction, which is what I do is I go to this website called Smart Asset. I put in my expected income. I ignore the FICA taxes and I look at the federal income and state income, and I take that number divide by four. And that’s what you need to be paying every quarter. And if you forget, you’re going to be splashed with interest and with interest and penalties. Interest rates high now. So if you get a fellowship, you owe money. Even if they don’t tell you

39:29 Emily: Exactly. And that’s the same website that I recommend when I teach this as well for like, okay, honestly, the best best thing to do is to fill out the estimated tax worksheet in form 1040-ES. Yes, but a lot of people don’t do that. I understand. So that calculator is a really good like substitute. You may be paying more than the bare minimum you’re required to, but that’s okay. Like if you accidentally overpay a little bit, you’ll get a refund at the end of the year. And it’s a quick way to get some peace of mind that you’re like, you’re on top of this issue. You’re not going to be fined at the end of the year, most likely. So yeah, I really like that suggestion. And the other thing that I’ll mention, just throw in there for potential future advocacy on on your front is that the university that I went to, Duke, they did withhold income tax on fellowship, paychecks and fellowship stipends. I’ve only heard of a couple of institutions that do that. It’s very, very, very rare. But it happened to be that the one that I attended did that and it causes other complications with reporting. So it’s not an easy, easy solution. But they did it somehow.

40:26 Jason A: Stanford told me that they can’t withhold and now you say that that that’s not true.

40:32 Emily: No, it’s not true.

40:32 Jason A: They don’t have to. But you know just, another reason why it’s not my problem go away administrator, but. Yeah, I mean I talked to them about this and I totally, I it might not be the best solution but I think it’s better. People have their rent deducted. You know in the tax office hours, they’re like, my, I have this deduction why wasn’t taxes put in there. I’m like well your rent deduction didn’t include a tax deduction. So, anyway.

41:01 Emily: Yeah, it’s definitely not impossible. But as I said, it’s very, very rare. What ended up happening in my case is that the income then was reported on a 1099 Miscellaneous. So they basically so they had a box for your amount of income and they had a box for your amount of withholding. They had to use a form that did that because the 1098T doesn’t have a box for how much income was withheld from it. Now compared to back when I was in graduate school, there are 2 1099 options that sometimes gets used for fellowship income. One is the 1099 MISC and one is the 1099 NEC, I’m not sure which Duke is currently using, but I’ve noticed that some funding agencies end up putting fellowship income on a 1099 NEC, which brings up a whole other issue, which is people confusing their fellowship income with self-employment income, which shouldn’t happen and just PSA to anyone who’s listening to this, like do not allow that to happen on your tax return because the fellowship was not self-employment income, in my opinion.

41:50 Emily: Okay. 

41:51 Jason A: It’s very expensive mistake. 

41:53 Emily: Incredibly, I mean.

41:53 Jason A: Very expensive mistake, yeah.

41:55 Emily: You mentioned the 7.65% for your FICA tax it’s double that right for self-employment tax. So huge, huge issue to get into and actually I’ll reference in the show notes an earlier podcast episode I did with someone who went down that mistake route and had to correct it with the IRS. Okay. So among these four areas that you’ve been working on, along with student government and some other people, are there any like big takeaways or lessons that you can convey to the listener about like best practices around doing this advocacy around financially related policies on campus?

Best Practices for Financial Policy Advocacy in Higher Education

42:24 Jason A: I you know, again, tenacity to read the documents. You know, I think we’ve gone through three examples where a Stanford administrator says the wrong thing because there’s just not there probably want to go away but IRS instructions twice and then know. Yeah so like you know on our outline here about how to negotiate for better benefits, the first step is to ask and when they say no, do your homework with with the documents. And you know, I consulted that retirement lawyer and graciously gave me that advice to confirm what I had read in the documents. So, you know, student governments can engage lawyers, unions can engage lawyers, you know, get your own advice and stick them with the letter that says, no, what you said was false. Oh, and then get it in writing too writing is really important because. Yeah. 

Best Financial Advice for Another Early-Career PhD

43:22 Emily: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for that. That advice, that suggestion, that route to go down. Let’s end with the question I ask all my interviewees, which is what is your best financial advice for another graduate student or another early career path? Ph.D. And it could be something that we’ve touched on already in the interview, or it could be something completely new.

43:40 Jason A: So. Okay, maybe this might be this, this might make you chuckle a little bit. So what I do when I file my taxes is I use, I do it redundantly with two softwares and then I submit it with the free one. I make sure the numbers match and it’s actually debugging that is how I’ve really learned the tax code of of all this. So and then so don’t pay money to the to corporations that lobby for our taxes to be complicated. So I will not do that. But anyway so that’s that’s the first piece of advice.

44:14 Emily: I want to make a small comment on that because I love that suggestion A lot of people don’t know. So I’ll mention TurboTax just because I’m more familiar with the software. A lot of people just, you know, input their numbers and then the the return is generated and filed. But there’s a step before that where you can preview your return. So you preview the 1040 and any other forms that have been generated through that process. And that’s what you can compare apples to apples with another software. You also preview the 1040 over there. You get a nice PDF or whatever, and there you can compare line by line to make sure everything matches or see what the discrepancies are. So you don’t just have to blindly submit whatever forms this software is generating. You can actually look at the final form before it’s submitted.

44:55 Jason A: Yeah, and, you know, TurboTax has like the automatic import. So it’s not necessarily that you’re entering it twice. It can be a just a double check

45:04 Emily: Very good. Well, I love that suggestion. Also for me, filing my tax returns manually, like literally by hand or through the free fillable form system was a great education. And I’m very I don’t know. Is the IRS still on track for their own software coming out for upcoming tax season? I know I’m excited too. Okay what was your second suggestion

45:26 Jason A: You know, so there’s this Reddit financial or personal finance page with the flowchart on what to do. I would Google that and follow the flow chart. And then one of those things after you’ve done emergency savings is, you know, Roth IRAs can be a vehicle for your emergency savings under certain circumstances because Roth IRAs, you can pull out the contributions, you can put your emergency savings in cash and a Roth IRA or Treasury bills if you if you want to do that, low risk. And then, you know, if you have the emergency, you have the emergency. But if you don’t have the emergency and five years at six grand, you know, then you’ll have $30,000 in your retirement and your Roth IRA when you end, and then you’ll go straight into that high income job will not be eligible. So, you know, if you can, I would put your savings in cash in a Roth IRA until you have enough cash to start investing it. But.

46:25 Emily: This is an advanced technique. It’s not one that I recommend because I think it’s difficult to do that. The qualifier that you mentioned is keep it in cash or keep it in a very no risk investment inside the Roth IRA. That’s what I think is difficult and where people might not complete this whole process correctly, because it is to me very important that you not take any risk with your emergency fund. But yes, you can still keep it inside the Roth IRA. I love your point of like use that eligibility to contribute to the Roth IRA when you have it, because it may not be around forever once you get to those higher paying jobs. So good suggestion, but I want them to listen to your whole suggestion.

47:01 Jason A: Yeah, it’s all about the audience here. You know, a Stanford PhD student, you know, you’ll find people who are ready to do that advanced topic. I mean, graduate students but yes, you’re right. Totally right about that.

47:14 Emily: Well, Jason, I’m so excited that you agreed to come on the podcast. This is a wonderful interview. I hope our listeners will take some of what we talked about today and go back to their own institutions and start advocating for some of these same issues or using some of the methods that you mentioned. And I especially love your tip about basically perseverance, both in reading the documents and doing your homework and also with your communications, because you’re going to get told no. And like you said, just it’s not personal. Let it roll off your back. Come back. You know, do your homework, etc. So this is really, really valuable, I think. Thank you so much.

47:42 Jason A: It’s been my pleasure. Thank you for reaching out. And I want to say good luck to all of your listeners in their their financial pursuits and advocacy and good luck to SGWU you as well, because we’re going to we’re going to fight like hell to get to get all the things we deserve.

Outtro

48:04 Emily: Listeners, thank you for joining me for this episode! I have a gift for you! You know that final question I ask of all my guests regarding their best financial advice? My team has collected short summaries of all the answers ever given on the podcast into a document that is updated with each new episode release. You can gain access to it by registering for my mailing list at PFforPhDs.com/advice/. Would you like to access transcripts or videos of each episode? I link the show notes for each episode from PFforPhDs.com/podcast/. See you in the next episode, and remember: You don’t have to have a PhD to succeed with personal finance… but it helps! Nothing you hear on this podcast should be taken as financial, tax, or legal advice for any individual. The music is “Stages of Awakening” by Podington Bear from the Free Music Archive and is shared under CC by NC. Podcast editing by Dr. Lourdes Bobbio and show notes creation by Dr. Jill Hoffman.

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